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In this episode, the focus is on clergy abuse—a topic made even more pressing by recent headlines. The featured guest, Sandy Phillips Kirkham, shares her harrowing ordeal of being abused by a charismatic youth pastor starting at the age of 16. Sandy discusses the grooming process, the five years of abuse, and how she was ultimately expelled from her church while her abuser was merely relocated. She delves into the long-lasting impact of the abuse on her life and her spiritual journey, how she concealed her trauma for 27 years, and how she ultimately confronted her abuser. Sandy also provides valuable insights and actionable advice for preventing abuse and supporting victims within church communities. Her story is also detailed in her book, ‘Let Me Prey on You,' which offers a detailed account of her journey from victim to advocate. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:47 Welcome to the Podcast 01:32 Introducing Today's Topic: Clergy Abuse 02:17 Sandy Phillips Kirkham's Early Life and Church Involvement 06:22 Meeting the Abuser: The Charismatic Youth Pastor 08:43 Red Flags and Grooming Tactics 13:51 The First Inappropriate Act 16:37 The Abuse Escalates 21:06 The Aftermath and Church's Response 28:15 Life After Abuse: Marriage and Keeping Secrets 32:09 Protecting Future Generations 35:17 The Importance of Sex Education in the Church 36:32 Techniques for Discussing Sex with Children 37:22 Personal Experiences with Sex Education 38:20 Triggering Memories and Emotional Breakdown 40:13 The Journey of Healing Begins 41:31 Understanding Clergy Abuse and Self-Forgiveness 43:52 Confronting the Abuser 47:07 Challenges in Seeking Justice 54:47 Preventing Abuse in the Church 01:00:31 Supporting Victims of Clergy Abuse 01:05:07 Final Thoughts and Resources Sandy Kirkham and her husband Bill enjoy life with their two grown children, two beautiful granddaughters, and two fairly well-behaved dogs. Sandy continues to use her voice to help victims of clergy abuse. She currently serves on the board of Council Against Child Abuse. Sandy has spoken before the Ohio Senate, a Maryland court, and appeared on a local television show in Boston. Her story, “Stolen Innocence,” was told in a documentary produced by The Hope of Survivors. Sandy works with survivors conducting victim support conferences. She has participated in The Voice of the Faithful (VOTF) panels moderated by SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), sharing her perspective from the non-Catholic point of view. Sandy has been a presenter/speaker at major events on clergy abuse including the Hope & Healing Conference. Sandy has earned a certificate of completion from the Faith Trust Institute entitled, “A Sacred Trust: Boundary Issues for Clergy and Spiritual Teachers.” https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/ https://www.facebook.com/KirkhamAuthor/  sandykirkhamauthor@gmail.com  Purchase her book “Let Me Prey Upon You” on amazon: https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/shop/let-me-prey-upon-you/   Link Tree   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/   Sandy Phillips Kirkham [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana Winkler. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello. Welcome everyone. Welcome to my regular listeners, as well as some new listeners that have joined us today. I have a great guest for you today. We're going to be talking about clergy abuse today. Religious leader, abuse. Pastor, youth leader. You've seen this in the news recently with all these preachers being arrested or charged with sexual misconduct or rape or [00:02:00] pedophilia. I'm sure you've seen the news. Well, today we're going to hear a story about a woman who's been victimized in that way and she's fighting back. So let me read her bio for you. A church is where an insecure 16-year-old girl should feel welcome, happy, and most importantly, safe tragically. For some, the church can become a place of great harm. Sandy Phillips Kirkham details her account of how charismatic youth minister preyed upon her, a betrayal which left her broken with a shattered faith and the ultimate shame of being blamed enforced from the church she loved. Despite a successful and happy life, is a wife, mother, and friend. Sandy successfully concealed her abuse for [00:03:00] 27 years until a trigger forced her to face the truth. Sandy's story will take you on her journey of healing. Her strength and courage will inspire you. Let me pray upon you her book details. Sandy's journey from innocent 16-year-old, a victim to a survivor, and advocate. We please welcome Sandy Phillips. Kirk, welcome Sandy to the show. Thanks so much for coming on. Well, thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. Wow. So I've been listening to you on the Preacher Boys podcast and thought you had a really great story, and so I wanted to come and bring you on so my listeners can hear your story as well. Mm-hmm. So tell us a little bit about your home and your church environment growing up. Let's [00:04:00] start from the beginning here. Okay. I'm the oldest of five. My parents were divorced when I was about seven, which that was really the impact of my life, of just how it altered everything about that time in my life. Then my mother remarried and we moved in with my stepfather shortly after my father remarried, and so I was dealing with these blended families and it was just very confusing for me at the time, my parents and stepfather did not attend church. So I, I wasn't a part of a church until I was about eight, and that's when my best friend who lived up the street invited me to go with their family, and I went with them and I went every Sunday after that, I absolutely fell in love with church. It was a place that I felt safe. I think it provided for me a place away from home that I felt comfortable and I got attention there. I was very active even as a small child. I went to vacation Bible school, church camp, love Sunday School. I sang in a junior choir. Really, it was a just a great place for me to [00:05:00] be. When I was 13, I was baptized and then my faith really deepened and my involvement in the church became even more so, started teaching Sunday school and teaching vacation Bible school. I started serving on committees with adults and doing more of the activities that would, , just be more in depth than just typical youth group activities. So, it's just no exaggeration to say that if the doors of the church were open, I was there and I loved it. I loved serving God. I felt that was the place for me, and everything about it was brought me joy and peace in the church. Wow. You really, were very sincere in your faith. It was not a fake one. I hear a lot of stories of. Being brought up in the church and being made to go to church and, you just go through the motions kind of thing. But it sounds like it was the opposite for you. It was that you really believed this with all your heart. Was that a fundamental Baptist church you were going [00:06:00] to or what? It was a church, Christ Christian Church, which is similar to the Baptist. It's an independent church. Yeah, that's the church. That was so something happened while you were serving the Lord and loving God. You met your abuser? Yes. Shortly after I turned 16, our church hired a new youth pastor, and from the moment he arrived, he was totally different than anyone we'd ever seen before. He was very charismatic, very dynamic. His sermons were really like nothing we'd ever heard before, and people were just drawn to him. He had a personality that people found themselves wanting to be around him. They wanted to please him. So he was very good at asking people to do things and they didn't hesitate. It, it was just a different kind of atmosphere. When he came to the church, the youth group exploded in numbers. We went from like 25 to almost 200 in a very short time. Even the [00:07:00] adult church was growing because people just came to hear him preach because he was so good at what he did. He was 30, married with two children, but he really acted more like our age group. He dressed like we did. He. Went to our football games at school, he knew our music. So he just, he really, he was tuned into us and in return we found ourselves, all of us being willing to please him and wanna do anything we could to make the youth group and the church better. So when people think of a profile of a child abuser, they usually think, oh, some dirty old man, that his roaming fingers or what have you, but this youth pastor sounded like, okay, he was really good looking and hip and really loved the young people. Mm-hmm. Is that typical of. Well, it's, it's typical in the sense that it's not the, dirty old man hiding in the bushes. Most abusers [00:08:00] are people we know. They're people that we like. They're usually people that, connect with people very well, and that's what makes them so dangerous because they're not obvious with what they do, and they're very good at that. They pretend to be one of us. They pretend to care, but in reality, their goal is to find a way to take advantage of the most vulnerable in, in the group. And so, predators are usually drawn to places where they will find vulnerable people. The gymnastics team is an example of that. The Boy Scouts, anywhere where you can, and certainly the church because we are welcoming into people who are in need. Oftentimes. Then there are many people in the church who are vulnerable to these types of men, and sometimes women. Were there any red flags? That you should have seen or noticed when you were around this youth pastor? Well, he came with so many different ideas and different ways of doing things. And one of the things that he was doing now, this was in the [00:09:00] seventies, so cultures were changing and it was free love and kind of thing. But he came into our church and he expected everyone to hug each other. So we were always hugging each other. And he also expected us to say how much we loved each other and that we love you and not just that I love you in Christ. He would simply walk up, give you a hug and say, I love you. Now you know, that may seem innocent, but that's a little odd for that pastor to be saying those kinds of things. And it also blurs the lines because when you say to someone, I love you, that can be confusing to. Young teenagers and even to vulnerable adults. So, but he did that with everybody. It wasn't like he picked someone else special, but, so the hugging in the contact was kind of a red flag in the beginning. But for me personally, I babysat for his family. His wife worked evenings. Mm-hmm. So one night after he came home, he asked me to go to his basement and listen to a song by Neil Diamond. [00:10:00] Well, it felt a little weird 'cause I'd never. I've been around a pastor that wanted to talk to me about anything but church in the Bible. But I went to the basement. Yeah. I mean a Neil Diamond song. So I went to the basement. I know, but that's a trigger factor for me sometimes. So anyway, I went to the basement and he put this record on and I sat down on the couch and instead of sitting in a chair or another place, he came on the couch and sat very close to me. And I remember feeling uncomfortable, but I didn't say anything. 'cause I thought, well, he is just sitting next to me. It's no big deal. But that's a red flag that I felt because it felt uncomfortable to me. And then the other times that I would babysit for him. His wife wouldn't come home till late in the evening, so he would come home around seven or eight and after the kids were in bed, instead of taking me home, he wanted me to sit and talk with him all evening. So we'd talk about the Bible or we'd talk about church, and sometimes he'd ask me what I thought of his [00:11:00] sermon, which at age 16, I'm flattered that this man has any idea that I would have some opinion about this great sermon that he just gave. So I didn't see anything wrong with that because he's my pastor. But had that occurred with my 30-year-old neighbor down the street, every time I went to babysit, I know I would've come home to my mother and said, okay, this is weird. Mm-hmm. Every time I babysit, this man wants to sit and talk to me all evening. I mean, what interest would I have as a teenager wanting to talk to this 30-year-old married man? But because my pastor was who he was and he tapped into our common connection of the church and God, and again, many times he would give me books to read 'cause he wanted me to get better in my deep, in my spirituality. So I didn't see anything wrong with it because of who he was. And so I just accepted that behavior, which is another tool and technique. They look for ways to get into you. Mm-hmm. [00:12:00] That don't seem obvious. And that was, so those were two red flags for me. Now as far as the congregation goes, I was in his office a lot by myself, but so were other kids, because he would actually call us into his office and say, I want you to come in and tell me what's going on in your life. Talk to me about your problems. Instead of us going to him, he would encourage us to come into his office. So while that probably wasn't a good thing, no one saw it as a bad thing. It seemed normal, but he called me into his office a lot more than the other kids. And later on there were people who did say to me, there were times when I wondered why he said something to you like that, or I noticed something one time. And so I think people notice some things, but no one thought enough of it to say, okay, there's something going on that doesn't seem right. So those were the red flags that I think in the beginning were very subtle. But they were hard to see, [00:13:00] and this is really important to distinguish these things because I was groomed by a guidance counselor in seventh grade. Mm-hmm. But he was one of those dirty old men that, he was doing creepy stuff. Yeah. But I never would have seen myself. A pastor and he's talking about spiritual things and he's talking about God and mm-hmm. He's not talking about sex. He's not watching, you're not watching dirty movies together. No, he's not, buying you sexy lingerie. It's, Hey, he's doing spiritual things. Mm-hmm. It's a setup. It's that grooming process you're talking about. It's pulling someone in to gain their trust, in a very di diabolical way, because he's using the church to do that. That's really scary. That scares mm-hmm. Scares me to death. What were the first times that he did something really inappropriate that you were just like, whoa? Well, the very [00:14:00] first time, was after a youth group meeting that was held in my home. I was the song leader. He put me in a leadership position, and it was very important to him that the evening always go well and that we were to make people feel welcome. And so at the end of the evening, I was nervous because I wanted to make sure that he thought everything went well. And he came up to me in my hallway and began telling me how great the evening was and how proud he was of me. And I was on Cloud nine. I was flattered that he felt that way. I felt good that the evening went so well. And then he just slowly bent down and he kissed me. And it wasn't, it was a kiss, but it seemed somewhat innocent to some extent. And I, I remember thinking, I think he just kissed me. Then my next thought was, well, he's my pastor and I don't think he would be doing anything he shouldn't be doing. And it was just a quick kiss. And he's always hugging people. And so maybe this is just his way of showing his appreciation for the evening. It was really [00:15:00] the only way in my 16-year-old mind that I could justify it because I couldn't think about this man doing anything he shouldn't be doing. And this was a person that everyone loved and thought so highly of, so how could I think he was doing something he shouldn't be doing? So I just let it go. I didn't think anything more about it. I mean, did you have any sex ed or anything? Did you know the birds and bees? Nine. Well, yeah, I'm 16. I did. Yeah, I did. But I wasn't, I hadn't dated much. I wasn't allowed to date till I was 16, so I hadn't had any dating experience. I had one kiss before this with a boy at camp. So I wasn't. Worldly or knowledgeable about all those things. But, and again, it was such a quick innocent type kiss. He didn't grab me, he didn't push me against the wall. I just, and again, I think for me it was okay if he's, if this is more than just a kiss, then what do I do with it? So therefore I'm just gonna say it's [00:16:00] nothing because I don't know what else to do. Um, wow. I let it go. I let it go. But as I babysat for him, he, sometimes when I would leave, he would kiss me and sometimes he wouldn't. So, I didn't see it as a con, kind of a continual thing that he was always wanting to kiss me. He always hugged me. But the kissing became more intense as it went along. So it, it would be another year, before he would have sex with me. And so that grooming process and kind of pushing the boundaries each time he was with me, finally ended with him having sex with me. Oh, wow. Now, some of us listening are like an adult having sex with a child or 16-year-old. Can you unpack that a little bit more, the process of how he got to that point? I mean, that the first time you had intercourse, I mean, did he, you know, go to a hotel with you and you had a candlelight dinner, or was it in the backseat of the car?[00:17:00] Was it an accident? It wasn't an accident. He was very deliberate and I had every intentions of having sex with me that night. I babysat, I was babysitting, I put the kids to bed, I walked down the steps. I assumed that we would go into the living room. Or the family room, sit on the couch and talk about the things we always talked about. But instead, he stopped me at the bottom of the stairs and he took me into the living room, and immediately put me on the floor and began undressing me. Um, and wow, I froze. I, I literally froze and I kept thinking to myself, he's going to stop. He's going to stop. And that the entire time he's whispering into my ear how much he loves me, that he would never hurt me, and that he can, I can trust him. And then he kept asking me, do you love me? Do you love me? And I, of course, I'm answering yes, because well, yes I do, because that's what I've told him for the past year. I, I, I just, I was so confused and what my real reaction was, I froze. Mm-hmm. Um, he, he sort of pushed my head under the [00:18:00] stereo. And so when he is starting to get farther than I thought he would ever go. I blocked, I just blocked it out and I started reading the serial numbers underneath the stereo. Oh my goodness. Just to be thinking of anything else. Um, at one point he then just picked me up and took me upstairs. He literally put me on the bed, penetrated me, and that was it. And I was horrified. I was absolutely horrified. I, I wanted to cry. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. Um, he left the room, told me to get dressed, and he would take me home. And I remember sitting on the bed and I put the bedspread around me because I was so embarrassed that I didn't have my clothes on. Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. Um, and then I just remember thinking I just had sex. I'm no longer a virgin. I just had sex with this man and. He took me home. Now, in the [00:19:00] book, of course, I go into a little bit more detail, but Right, he took me home and just before I got outta the car, he said to me, now, you know, this is something between the two of us, you can't tell anyone. And of course I'm thinking, who would I tell? I, I don't want anybody to know. I just did this. So, that was the first time. And then I think I, at that point I kept thinking, you know, I've had sex with him. So now I'm committed to him again. I'm at this point, I'm 17 years old. I'm still like, what do I do with this? I don't, I don't know what to do with this. Um, and he was convincing me that he loved me. He was convincing me that he needed me in his ministry and that God, this was God's will in our lives. He threw that at me. Eventually he would say to me that we were married in God's eyes. I mean, twisting the scripture and using God as a reason that we should be together. And so. I started to accept that. There were a couple times I went to him and told him that I couldn't do this anymore. I felt [00:20:00] guilty. He would respond in one of two ways. One, he would say to me how much he needed me, how much he loved me, and that he couldn't live without me. So that was the guilt part of it. Or he would respond and by saying to me, you know, you're no longer a virgin. No one else is gonna want you. I'm the only one that knows how to love you, and you are committed to me, and this is gonna be the way it is. And I saw no way out. I didn't see a way out. And so the relationship continued for five years. Wow. Five years. It went on for five years. That is a long time. And it, during that time, he became more aggressive physically. Uh, he hit me. He became sexually more deviant. It just progressed. It got worse and worse. And to a point that I finally, I was, my self-esteem was so low. I hated myself for what I'd been doing. So I finally just accepted that this was my life. I knew [00:21:00] I'd never get married. I knew I'd never have children, and this wouldn't be over until he said it was over. This went on for five years and nobody in the church noticed it. Your parents didn't notice it. You know, people say, well, where were your parents? Well, first of all, my parents were thrilled. I was in church. I mean, this was a time in the seventies when drugs were. Prevalent girls were, having free sex. So for them, what safer place could there be than to be in church? So, and they saw his intention toward me and his involvement with me as a good thing. I mean, he would take me on hospital visits with him. I mean, they saw this as being positive. And they knew how much I loved being there and that it was a place that I liked to go. So they didn't see it. And many in the church didn't see it began because who suspects the pastor of such behavior. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And especially in the seventies when this wasn't an open topic like it is now, you wouldn't have dared thought anything like that. And so [00:22:00] it's not uncommon for people in the church, to miss the signs and to ignore what they really do see, because they just can't believe that it would be something that would be happening in their church because then they'd have to do something about it. Yes, exactly. When did it all come crumbling down? It does crumble. Eventually it does. Two elders became suspicious and followed him one night and found us together in a hotel room. And then from then on, the next month and a half was an absolute nightmare for me. Hmm. It was initially hoped that they could keep what he had done, quiet and keep it from the congregation. Now, I have to say one thing before I forget. This wasn't his first incident of sexual misconduct. Oh. Prior to and just after he was awri, he arrived at our church. A young woman from his first church came forward and accused him of sexual misconduct. When he was [00:23:00] confronted by my elders, he didn't deny it. He said it was true. He asked for forgiveness, that it would never happen again. It was a mistake. So within six months. That's when he was kissing me in my hallway. So this, so these elders were aware that this was the second time that there had been an incident with this man of sexual abuse and misconduct. But in spite of that, they tried to keep it quiet in hopes of moving him to another church. And so I was told during that time where I was to sit, how I was to respond to questions. I wasn't to talk to anyone. I wasn't to tell anyone about what had happened, including my parents. And this was all in an effort to keep it quiet. Well, that effort failed. And so it was determined that he should address the congregation. He did it in a very vague way, just simply said that he'd sinned. He'd sinned against God, and he'd sinned against his wife. And that was his confession. That was it. Two days later, he had me meet [00:24:00] him in a hotel room after that confession in front of the congregation. Now. He was moved to the next church. He was given a going away party. There was actually a vote to maybe keep him, but the vote failed and they decided to move him to the next church. About, two weeks, three weeks later, I was called in by the elders, and this is probably the hardest part of my story for me. Mm-hmm. I was called in by the elders and I was told that because of my behavior I was to leave the church. I was devastated. I loved that church. It was the only church I knew, and here I was being told by these two elders that I wasn't fit to worship there any longer. Mm-hmm. He could be forgiven and given a second, third chance. I couldn't be, I was told that to leave the church. I wasn't given any counseling. I wasn't helped in any way. I was simply told to leave and I did. I left. [00:25:00] And that I told people many times, as horrific as the abuse was, having been told to leave, that church had a greater impact on me spiritually than the actual abuse did. I don't think I ever recovered from that. It still haunts me to this day to some extent. That response of the church really devastated me. So that was the crumbling, as you called it? It came crashing down and I would, I left the church. So did that change your perception of God? What was your relationship with God this time? Yes. You were kicked outta the church, but. Well, I felt a disconnect from God. I never blamed God. I never felt like God caused this to happen. I, in fact, I carry the blame and the shame. I felt guilty for what I had done. And so I never blamed God, but because of the relationship being tied in with God and the [00:26:00] prayers that this man would give, and then, you know, he'd give these wonderful sermons about marriage and sanctity of marriage on a Sunday morning after having sex with me the night before. I had difficulty separating all of that, and there were so many trigger factors associated with the church and prayer that God really did. It was hard for me to have any kind of relationship with God. I did. I didn't become an atheist like a lot of victims do, and who become angry at God. I simply just. I just put him on the back burner. I knew he existed, but I didn't have a connection with him any longer. So for 27 years, I, I never prayed. I never opened my Bible. I went to church because when I met my husband, he was a Methodist. And I thought, well, I'll go to the Methodist Church. It's a different denomination. Mm-hmm. I'll just go on. It should be fine. It didn't work that way. I had anxiety attacks in church. I, his [00:27:00] reminders of him were constant, but I forced myself to go. I made sure that I went because I knew when we had children, I wanted them to have that church experience. But every time I walked past the minister's office, I got a knot in my stomach. Oh yeah. It had nothing to do with that minister. But you understand that. I mean, it, but I did that for 27 years. It became my norm. I just knew that when I walked past that office, I was gonna get a knock my stomach, certain hymns. I can tell you what his favorite hymn was, and every time that was played, that's who I thought of. I couldn't pray. It was so, I did have a deep, deep disconnect for 27 years, and I have to tell you, I missed it. I actually mourn that loss of my spiritual life, but I didn't know how to get it back. Because I'm keeping this secret. I'm still carrying guilt and shame. I couldn't forgive myself. I didn't feel worthy to be in church. So with all of that mixed in, I just put myself on autopilot and said, [00:28:00] well, this is the way my life will be and I'll just have to accept it. It just sounds so unfair. Somebody that loves the Lord so much and served in the church and so innocent and being kicked out. Oh, but it sounded like maybe meeting your husband would've been a positive thing for you. How did you guys meet? I actually worked at his office, so I met him there. We dated for about two years, and I just found him to be a kind, loving soul. He was very unassuming. He wasn't arrogant. He didn't, he wasn't a boastful type of person. He didn't like taking credit for things, even though he deserved it sometimes. He was just a good hearted person, and I just, I fell in love with him immediately. I really did. I thought this was a great, great guy. I mean, I will tell you, I have said many times because before I met him, I was on a destructive path. I did not have any self-esteem. [00:29:00] I saw myself just simply as some sex object that, I was only good for that. And so when I met him, he saved my life because he loved me for who I was and showed me that I was worthy. So I've often said to him, you saved my life, and he will respond back with you made mine, and you can't get any better than that. So meeting him was a turning point for me, but I kept a secret from him for 27 years, and I lived in fear that he'd always find out that I'd had this affair with a married man. And I know in my heart that it wouldn't have made a difference to him. But people who've been abused never forget the words, don't ever tell. And I never forgot those words. And I never forgot what the consequences could be if I were to tell someone. Because when my elders found out, they blamed me. And I, I couldn't bear the thought that if I were to tell him. [00:30:00] Somehow he would find fault with me, or I wondered, would he wonder why I didn't feel confident enough to tell him? Would he feel betrayed that I kept a secret? Would he see me differently sexually? All those fears that I had while unfounded were still present in my mind. And so I never could tell him. And I had to do a lot of play acting and pretending, through our married life in the sense that the times I was having trigger factors, I had to hide them. And I know he would've been supportive, but I couldn't see that. Because while trauma affects you at the time of the abuse, it's lifelong. It doesn't leave you. And so I lived with that for 27 years. So did you have. Intimacy issues when you were together? Was that what you're talking about? The triggering? No, I, know a lot of victims do, and that's understandable. I really didn't, because he was so different from my abuser [00:31:00] and I recognized that my abuser was emotionally violent mm-hmm. And physically, he just wasn't loving in any sense of the word. I was simply used for sex. Mm-hmm. And I didn't have that with my husband. And so I could separate that a little bit. But I think the guilt of hiding the secret had an impact on our marriage as far as my able to be intimate with him in an emotional way. I'm really glad to hear that. I, you are not the first person that I've heard that. The victim has hidden a secret from her husband. I passed her and a pastor's wife and her husband did not know. Mm-hmm. Children didn't know, and it was a family member that was the abuser. And I kept telling her, you've got to tell him. Mm-hmm. You know why? It's because, and I was thinking this when I was listening to your, the other shows that you were on. I'm thinking about your children and your grandchildren. If I was abused, [00:32:00] I would be like. How do I keep my children and grandchildren from going through what I just went through, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, that's an interesting thing because most people would assume that my daughter, I would've been all over it and worried sick every time she left the house. Yeah. But I actually had the opposite, reaction because keep in mind, I didn't see myself as an abuse victim. I saw myself as someone who participated, who willingly went into this relationship and stayed in it willingly, which is not the case when you're abused. There's the control, the manipulation, all of those things that play into keeping a victim in a relationship and they see no way out. So for me, I just assumed I got one bad apple in the whole barrel, that this didn't happen to other people and that I had an affair. But my daughter, who I knew, she would never have an affair with a married man, I just knew that. So I. Sent her on [00:33:00] retreats. I sent her to church camp without fear because again, I'm thinking, okay, this just doesn't happen to other people and this is not something I need to be concerned about with her. However, with my granddaughters, it's totally different because now I understand what really occurred and the damage that can occur when you've been abused. And so with my granddaughters, her mom and dad have talked to them, about good touch, bad touch. And I too have talked about to her, but I've been a little bit more probably detailed about it. Mm-hmm. And as she gets older, these men, the techniques change as you get older and they, after they go after teenage girls, so mm-hmm. Hopefully I'll be able to help her understand, what happens when someone's grooming. I want her to understand her personal space, that if you're not comfortable when someone hugs you, it's okay. That's right. Say I, I don't want you to touch me that way. Mm-hmm. Or say if they don't feel comfortable and we put a lot on kids to do that. 'cause here [00:34:00] we're asking a child to say to an adult, no. Mm-hmm. So it's okay to go to your mother or your mom and say, can you tell so and so Uncle Jimmy or whoever it is, I don't wanna be hugged. So we need to make sure our kids understand that their personal space is their space. And if they don't want someone in that space, it's okay to say no. I also think it's important to tell kids that good people can do bad things. Yeah. Because, as we talked about earlier, our abusers are not strangers. They're not mean people. Mm-hmm. They're usually good people. They're usually people who've given us gifts. They're people who help us. They're people who tell us how wonderful we are. So it's hard for children, even adults, to see this individual who. Who on one side is a good individual who does a lot in the church, who's done all these wonderful things. And so we, we have to tell these kids, just because they're a good person doesn't mean they can't do bad things. And so that's kind of the message I hope to get to my granddaughters that I didn't give to my [00:35:00] daughter. And fortunately she didn't have any issues with church or any, anybody abusing her. But I certainly did not, guide her in the right way in that sense because I just, like I said, I just assumed that I was the only one that this would ever have happened to. Well, I think, I hear a lot in the church that they don't teach sex ed because they don't want the kids to go out and have sex. Mm-hmm. And so a lot of these kids are like ignorant as to, what is healthy and what is not proper, yeah. We need to teach 'em that our bodies or are going to respond. They were built that way. God intended us to have feelings. You know, when we are around the opposite sex, that's normal. Mm-hmm. So we need to make sure kids understand. But there are barriers and there are boundaries that need to be taken. But you're absolutely right when we don't talk at it, then we figure it out on their own. And we could, we can all imagine when you're leaving teenagers to [00:36:00] their own devices to figure out things. That's probably not gonna lead in a good spot. No, we have the internet now, which when we, right. When you and I were younger, we didn't have the internet. We didn't have cell phones. No. If you wanted a Playboy magazine, you had to go to that kind of a neighborhood to get something. Yes. You know? Yes. It was a lot more difficult. Yes, absolutely. But too many parents are embarrassed to talk to their children about sex and, you know, everybody listening needs to listen. You need to find a way to talk to them about these things. And one of the techniques that I use with my daughter, just in talking about sex in general, kids don't want to hear their mom and dad talk to 'em about this. So what I did would say, I read a magazine article about this girl who did such and such so that I put it off on something else that's, a non-entity of a person. And I'll say, or Have you ever heard of this? And of course I know she's got a little embarrassed, but I, it opened the dialogue without me coming [00:37:00] out and saying, have you heard of oral sex? Instead, I would talk to her and say, I heard this about this. This is what kids are doing, blah, blah, blah. So you kind of have to find techniques and ways to sneak around it sometimes, but you absolutely need to talk to, because they know it's out there and they're going to experiment. That's just part of being a teenager. Yeah, my parents chickened out. They just gave me a book to read. Same, probably the same book. I got, I forget what it was called. Where did I come from? Or something. It was a cartoon book. Mm-hmm. And I'm grateful for that. And, they just, after I finished the book, do you have any questions? Yeah, yeah. I had a lot of, older people that were friends and I would actually go to my older. Senior citizen friends and ask them questions rather than ask my parents. Right? Yeah, yeah. It's more comfortable that way for sure. Like I said, it's not the topic that we like to talk to with our kids and our kids don't wanna hear it, but being uncomfortable is not an excuse not to do that. And in school you get [00:38:00] the basics of the mechanics of it, but then that ends, that's all you get there as well. And that's not as helpful either. Yeah. The sixth grade menstrual cycle, health class. Yeah, exactly. That's it. They separate the girls and the boys. Yeah. We were all really embarrassed and Yes, yes. Yeah, exactly. Great information. So let's, circle around back to, okay, you've been hiding this secret forever. Mm-hmm. And nobody knows about your past. And then one day you got triggered. So what happened that day? Well, that's the first chapter of my book, and that is one day I was driving to a golf tournament in Tennessee. We live in Cincinnati. I was driving, my daughter was in college. She was playing in a golf tournament. I was driving down there and I was about halfway when I saw an exit sign for the town of Kingsport, Tennessee. And that is the. Town to which my [00:39:00] abuser was sent after he left our church, and it just sent me over the edge. Mm-hmm. All of a sudden I'm thinking, I'm in the town where he lives. Am I close to his house? Am I close to the church where he's now a minister? I mean, even though it'd been 27 years, I thought he was probably still there. I didn't know, but that's what my mind was telling me. I, all of a sudden I felt his presence in the car. I, I could smell him. I could hear him. Oh. I was, it was unbelievable to me what was happening to me. I didn't even know what was happening. I pulled to the side of the road Oh, good. And I sobbed. Yeah. I sobbed for about 20 minutes and I was just trying to figure out what was happening because anytime I had trigger factors before I could manage them, I could control them. I kind of let them happen and then I push 'em back down. Mm-hmm. This one wasn't going back down and I was a mess. I was just an absolute mess. I was able to get through the weekend. I drove back home and all I could think about was, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? [00:40:00] I wanted to stop thinking about him and I couldn't. I spent the next two weeks, really in anxiety. I, my husband would leave for work and I would just walk around the house, wring my hands, trying to figure out why I was feeling the way I was feeling. What was I gonna do with these feelings till at one point I finally decided I was gonna tell my best friend, and I was absolutely petrified to tell her because for the first time in 27 years, I was going to utter the words. I was sexually abused by my youth pastor. And I remember thinking, he's gonna find out and I'm gonna get in trouble. I just, I was 49 years old and I'm still afraid of this man. But I did tell her, it was, it took me a long time to, to get the words out, but I did, she was very supportive. She was very kind. She was patient as she waited for me to tell her. And so that started my journey of healing just by telling that first person. I then told two or three other of my close friends, so the four of us spent [00:41:00] many days and many hours on the screened in porch of one of my friends just letting me talk. Mm-hmm. And being able to express what had happened to me. I wasn't ready to tell all of the story. I mean, there's parts in the book that I won't go into here because they're pretty mm-hmm. Embarrassing and some things that I did. So I wasn't ready to tell them everything, but I told them enough that it helped me start to release what had been done to me. And so that was the first thing that I did, I think. And then the next thing I did, which was so valuable, and I encouraged victims to do it as well, I just read everything I could on clergy abuse or sexual abuse in itself. So I began to learn the terms of grooming, manipulation, gaslighting, and then I could see how he methodically used each one of those things on me to get me to do the things he got me to do, and to stay in that relationship for those five years. And that was huge for me. So [00:42:00] it was, for the first time as I began reading, I understood that I had been abused. Now, it still took me a while to admit that I really was sexually abused because I didn't want that label. I didn't wanna be an abuse victim. And there was a part of me. We all wanna be loved. And so there was still a part of me that I wanted to think that there was some part of him that cared about me, that this wasn't just purely about sex and that he wasn't just using me for his own gratification. And I had to get past that. I had to finally come to terms with, no, this man didn't do the no one who loves you, would do the things he did and ask the things he did of me. So that took me a while, to finally admit, okay, this was an abusive relationship. So I told someone, educating myself, and then I had to learn to forgive myself. I had to let, I had to let go of the guilt [00:43:00] and shame because any guilt and shame belongs squarely on him. This was a man that I should have been able to trust. It was in a place that should have been the safest place on earth for me. And he took advantage of a vulnerable teenager who had, I didn't have a major crisis in my life, but he knew my home life was an upheaval at times. He knew that I didn't see my dad very much. So he used that to against me. And I had to forgive myself for being who I was at the time and being able to respond the way I did for the coping skills I had at the time. Sure. You can look back. I, and I think, why didn't I say this? Why didn't I do that? But I couldn't because of, of the re of the relationship he had created between us. Mm-hmm. I had lost all power. He was in complete control of this relationship, so I had to forgive myself and that wasn't easy either. Then, and I don't know that this is something all victims should do, but I just felt this need [00:44:00] that I needed to confront him. I just felt like I couldn't move past this unless I was able to face him. Now, I had no contact with him for 27 years. I didn't even know if he was still alive, but I hired a private investigator and he found him ministering in a church in Alabama. And so I had my investigator contact him and we set up a time and a meeting that we would meet. And I took my husband, I took my friend who was a counselor and another friend who was at the church at the time. Um, I wanted her at this point. You told your husband at this point, I'm sorry. Yes, that's correct. I, it was probably three months after I told my friends, that I said to him I would like to meet him in his office and talked to him about something and. I was terrified. I don't know how else to say it. I just was so afraid. Not that I needed to be, but I was. And I probably sat there for almost, [00:45:00] I would say, 40 minutes and just cried. I was able to finally get out. I'm okay, the kids are okay, and then I started crying again. He couldn't have been any more supportive, more loving. I remember looking at his face and I said I was sexually abused by my youth pastor, and he didn't. His expression didn't change, and then I said. I was their babysitter and his face just dropped. And for the first time, I could see the pain I was feeling was reflected in his face. It was, I almost wanted to hug him to say, I'm sorry. 'cause I could see how much it hurt him to know that this had been done to me, especially as a baby. I mean, the picture became complete for him once I said that. And so he was very supportive. I think he was worried about me confronting this man, for a couple reasons. But one, I think he was worried that I would be disappointed in his reaction, and that I would be expecting too much of this [00:46:00] person to understand what he did to me and show any kind of remorse, and that I, it would hurt me even more. And one of my fears was that, I was afraid he wouldn't meet me. I was afraid that he was gonna say, no, I'm not gonna meet with you. And my husband said, oh, he's gonna meet with you all right? Because if he doesn't meet with you, you just tell him. Call the church secretary. We'll call every elder. We're gonna, he, somebody's gonna hear your story if he doesn't want to hear it. So he did agree to meet with me. I went down to Alabama and the meeting took place and I said the things that I wanted to say to him. I wanted him to get what he did to me. But he didn't, he never could understand the damage. It was almost as if, okay, I shouldn't have done it and I'm sorry I did it. Okay, now what do you want? It was, get away. You bother me? Yes. And his greatest fear as most narcissist, and I believe he was, narcissistic, but his greatest fear was that I was going to demand that he be removed from the ministry. I mean, that's what he [00:47:00] was most concerned about, how this was going to impact him. And he should have been out of the ministry. So I went to his. Boss. I was told this, and something happened 27 years ago. He, we think he's safe. We're not worried, in spite of the fact that during the meeting he had admitted that there had been multiple occurrences of sexual misconduct throughout his ministry. Not all teenagers, some were most were probably women. And then he said he had gone to therapy because he had been identified as a sexual addict. And I kept thinking, who, what? What world, what world? Does this make sense that a man who has been identified by a psychologist as a sex addict belongs in the ministry? Nope. But here was this church. So I sent a letter to his 11 elders thinking, okay, somebody in this eldership is gonna see this. Is I something's wrong here. Not one responded totally [00:48:00] ignored me. 11 elders totally ignored me. Wow. No worries. So then, I decided to go to his denominational leaders, which were in Indianapolis. And there again, while they were sympathetic to my story and apologize that it happened, they said, we're an independent church. Our churches hire and fire their own ministers. We have no control and if they choose to keep this man, we can do nothing about it. And so what, I was shut down and basically I had no place else to go. I had pretty much. Done everything I could do. And it wasn't my place in the man that he be removed. I expected the church to be, the church was to do the right thing. Exactly. I assumed so naively that once they heard my story and once they understood the background of this man, surely someone would say, this isn't right. But again, keep in mind he's very charismatic. He brings in [00:49:00] people, he brings in money. And to be fair, and probably I'm being a little too gracious, these men are very good at manipulating not only the victim but the congregation as well. They're very good at getting control of the congregation so that they find themselves following this man no matter what he would do. Yeah. And that's basically what happened. There was going to be, I got a four page letter from his boss telling me that, know, I'm going to. Ruin this church if I continue on this path and that I'm going to feel all this guilt because I'm gonna be responsible for the damage that I will do to pe people's spiritual lives. I mean that, it was an incredible, I put the letter in the book, I, because it is so incredibly, hard to believe that someone write that to a victim of abuse. Just So that was What year did that happen? 2004. Okay. So we did have. We did have the internet. Oh, yes. And this was after the Catholic, [00:50:00] church had their, exposure of sexual abuse within their church. So yes, this was, it was out there for sure. This wasn't something that you would think, oh, I can't believe this happened. And again, he had admitted to these past instances. I mean, this wasn't someone who was saying, oh, I don't know what she's talking about. Or, oh, this is the only time it ever happened. He had been in therapy because he was a sexual addict, So he wasn't registered as a sex offender? I guess not. And in my case, at the time of the abuse, the age of consent was 16. So I had no legal recourse because of I was either legally age of consent. Now that has been changed in Ohio. It's now 18. It's now 18, but many states it's still 16. There are several states where the age of consent is 16. Now, the interesting about that is. His contact sexual contact with me was not considered a crime. However, if he had been my high school teacher, it would've been a crime. What, so pastors I know [00:51:00] does not make sense. It does not make a leg of sense. No, it does not. So it, they don't consider him a teacher. They don't cons, they don't, they considered an affair. A mutual. Relationship if he'd been my teacher, that's a different story. So yeah, I had no legal recourse. And that was frustrating. But I couldn't change that. So it was what it was. I just had to accept that he, yes, he belonged in jail. Yes, there's no doubt and should be registered as a sex offender, but I'm not so sure that even if he's registered as a sex offender, these people in Alabama and wherever he is now, would. Even take that as a concern. Well, you know, the millennials now, they'll just, they just post stuff on Facebook and Twitter and call the evening news and they have, yes. News people at their doorstep, right. Ready to mm-hmm. Track this guy's name through the mud. Mm-hmm. But you didn't choose to do that, I guess. No, you know, I'm very careful about naming him in the sense that, part of my story is that I [00:52:00] reconnected with his wife. She actually divorced him after they moved, because again, he committed sexual misconduct. She was 20, I think, at the time, so it wasn't a minor, but that's beside the point. This is a man in a position that, a professional who does not cross boundaries like that. So, to no one surprise, he committed sexual misconduct the third time, so she divorced him. And part of, I guess letting go of some of the guilt that I felt, I wanted to. Connect with her to at least tell her, not that I was responsible for what happened, but how very sorry I was for her pain and suffering as well because she was part of the youth group. I mean, she was there at the church all the time. We sang in the choir together. So it was like I had a relationship with her. Oh wow. To some extent. And of course when, we were found, when he was found out by the elders, she was upset and she of course, didn't wanna have anything to do with me, which is understandable. So I actually think I [00:53:00] also wanted to give her the opportunity to say whatever she felt she needed to say to me if she wanted to. I mean, I didn't know what she was gonna say or react. I thought maybe she'd hang up on me. I didn't know. So I called her one day. My investigator found her phone number and gave it to me, and she couldn't have been any more gracious. I, she never blamed me. She understood as she, as the years went on, what this really was just like I did. She's remarried. She's has a wonderful husband now. And so I visited her several times. We keep in contact. And so part of my not wanting to expose him too much is that it would be hurtful to her. And he does have children. Now. I know that, well, whatever consequences are as a result of this are all on him, but I don't feel the need to add to that. That's not my purpose in speaking out. And so, mm-hmm. I've gone to his church leaders, I've done everything I can to get him removed from the ministry. And nothing, it's just [00:54:00] he's still, I don't know that he's still a pastor, but he still remains in good standing within that denomination to this day. Yeah. I mean, sometimes we have to just let God. Right. Dish out the justice. It may not be in our timeline, it may not be the way that we think it should happen, but Right. He's not gonna get away with this. No. And again, I did my part. Yes. So my conscience is clear and I am able to say I did what I could do and whether or not they removed him, I certainly hope that I maybe put some doubt in some of their minds and maybe questioned their motives in keeping this man. I don't know. But, I feel I did what I could do and I feel good about that. I feel good about that. Absolutely, you should. And what I'm really interested in is, you're trying to keep this stuff from happening to other people, so, I mean, what can we do to prevent some of this stuff? Well, it's [00:55:00] difficult again, because these men are among us as wolves in sheep's clothing, and so they're difficult to spot. But a couple things. I think the first thing I would tell people is if something doesn't seem right. Keep your antenna up. Don't just ignore it or just don't think, oh, well that can't be true because he's the pastor. Mm-hmm. If it's behavior that you wouldn't accept in someone else, or it's something that you would question in someone else, then question it in the pastor or the choir director, whoever it is. Don't be blinded by the person. The persona that they're presenting to you. So that's the first thing I would say is keep your antenna up. The other thing is we, and we're churches, I think are doing better about this, but you've got to have policies in place that say, no, you're not taking a 16-year-old girl on your hospital visit with you. Yes. That's, that's not normal. That's not right. What is she doing going on a hospital visit with you in a car? And of course now we have the texting [00:56:00] and there should be absolutely no texting between a pastor, a youth minister, and anyone in the congregation. And that includes, no, don't forget the meeting for the church luncheon. No, there should be no texting because you, it's too hidden and it's too easily moved to the next step. And that's how it starts. You know, all of the abuse when it's someone you know, it always starts with small things and subtle things. It doesn't, innocent things. Innocent things that, yeah, that, that are innocent. But so that's why, so no texting. Yeah. So put in the policy, those places of, when you take a 10-year-old child to the bathroom, you make sure there's another adult with you. Absolutely. That's for your safety as well as for the child's safety. Mm-hmm. So I, I think we need to be aware. And then I would also say watch for the vulnerable in your, among your church or your group. Watch for the kid that's got issues at home and is looking for a father figure. Be aware that they're going to be more susceptible to someone who's a predator and pay [00:57:00] attention to their cues and kind of keep in touch with them as well in a sense of asking questions and how they're doing and be the kind of a person that they might feel comfortable coming to if something were to happen to them because they're the ones that are gonna be most vulnerable, to a predator. So that's kind of, an overview of what. Maybe a help to try and stop and prevent some of this. Yes, I like lots of video cameras. They're cheap now. You can put a camera, you can hide cameras all over the church facility and Yes. And I think too, talking to this about this issue to the congregation before anything happens, maybe having a person in your congregation who is the go-to person on this topic, who, who's researched what all these grooming and manipulation is so that they are even more equipped to, to notice the signs. So you have a person who's kind of in charge of that topic and then address it to the congregation once a year and say, here's our policy and here's what we expect of our pastors and here's what we would hope you would [00:58:00] do if you notice something. So it just brings it out so that people feel like if there is something that they know is going on or something's wrong, they feel comfortable going to someone about it. Those are all really great tips for leaders and, church members. So what, what if I am listening and I am being subjected to some of this stuff, what should I do? Well, what you need to do and what is the hardest thing to do is to tell someone. Yeah. And it's hard to do because when you're in an abusive relationship, you are being controlled by your abuser. And the narrative is what he is directing. And so he's going to tell you, look, you can tell anybody you want. They're not gonna believe you. And he tells you that over and over again. He's also going to tell you that you are going to be in trouble if you tell anyone. And then there's that problem of you sort [00:59:00] of care about this person. Here's someone that has been helping you, who's been your mentor, and you don't wanna get him in trouble. So with all those dynamics involved, it's very difficult for victims to come forward. But I am telling you, you don't wanna wait the 27 years that I did no. And live with this guilt and the shame and the angst and the anxiety. First of all, it's not worth it. You're not doing anyone any favors, especially yourself, because there is help out there. But they can only help you if you're able to be able to tell someone. And believe me, I understand how difficult that is. It's not easy. Mm-hmm. But I would hope that I hearing my story and others that you will understand that there is help out there and you need to tell someone. 'cause it won't end until you tell someone. And if you need to, you go to someone that you trust. And if you need to, you go outside the church. Yes. You tell someone you know is going to listen to you. [01:00:00] Hey, I tell my listeners, you can call me anytime mm-hmm. And email me and I'm sure you'd say the same thing. Exactly. Reach out to Sandy if mm-hmm. You need somebody to talk to. Mm-hmm. Or you don't know what is the next step I need to take here? Right. It is scary to make First step. It's very scary. Very scary. Absolutely. So then there's the rest of us, those that have not experienced clergy abuse, maybe we're members in the church, maybe we're friends or family. What are some helpful things for us to do to support a victim? Helpful things to say, maybe there's things we shouldn't say, well, that's a yes. First, I would say anytime you're aware of a victim of clergy abuse or anybody who's been abused, whether it's clergy or not, reiterate to that victim that it was not their fault and that there was nothing they could have done, should have done that would've prevented this. And by doing that, you are [01:01:00] telling that person they're free to speak to you. And victims need to hear it over and over again because we do blame ourselves. Children as young as five will blame themselves because they allowed someone to touch them 'cause mommy said not to. And the that guilt in that shame that victims carry, it's difficult to let go of it. So to hear someone say to us, it's not your fault is so freeing. So that's the first thing. The second thing I would say is. Let them know that you will listen to them without judging them, and you will hear their story without being shocked that you are able to say, tell me everything you need to tell me, or Tell me as little as you wanna tell me. Give them a comfort place to go to talk. And then I would say, and this is difficult for people who have spiritual lives or who are part of the church, be very much aware that things such as prayer and Bible reading and [01:02:00] scripture can be very triggering for those who've been abused in the church. Mm-hmm. So things that you would find comforting like prayer. Can be a very major trigger factor for victims. And so instead of saying to a victim, I'll pray for you, or Can I pray with you? The best thing you could say would be to phrase it in such a way as to say, I understand because of what you've been through, prayer can be difficult. And so I would like to pray for you, but I would completely understand if you don't want to pray or you won't, don't even want me to pray for you. And so you've opened up the door to say to this person, wow, I don't have to feel guilty because I can't pray. You know, when we've grown up in the church and we've been told how wonderful church and prayer and all those things are, we still carry that guilt too because we're no longer connected to God. So to have a person on the outside. Recognize that these can be trigger factors is again, a gift. It's a [01:03:00] gift. So those things I think would be the most helpful when dealing with a person of clergy abuse. And give them time. Don't push forgiveness. Don't push trying to get them back into church. 'cause some victims will never be able to go back to church if you let them find their own pace of time and you do it without judging them. And I know that's kind of hard sometimes for Christians and people in the church because we love the church and we find it to be such a wonderful place and we want this person back in the church. Yes. But it, it may not be the best place at that point for that victim. Such valuable advice. I That is awesome. And again, back to like, when you're talking about the sex education, open up the dialogue, you know? Yeah. Bring it up. Bring it up before they bring it up. Again, I read in the newspaper that this girl was molested by, a gym teacher. You know that, that ha I know that happens. And then let 'em know that if. It is, like you said, allowing that comfort to be able to [01:04:00] talk to someone. I think for me it was important to give my side of the story. No one had a clue that he was emotionally and verbally and physically abusive to me. They saw this as a little love affair and that we had this, magic little love affair. Evil temptress. Yes, exactly. And so I wanted them to know the full story. That was important for my healing too. And they did that. And, they welcomed me back to the church. I went back, I've been back a couple times for, a youth group reunion that we had. So, and that was difficult. But again, I thought that was necessary for me to move forward. I had to let go of my past. I had to figure out, not to forget it, but how was I going to incorpo

Struggles with Self-Worth: Rosalie's Journey from Abuse to Healing Through Faith In this episode host Diana welcomes Rosalie Janelle, host of 'The Good News' podcast, to share her powerful survivor story. Rosalie opens up about her journey from an abusive relationship to finding faith and beginning her healing process through therapy and a closer relationship with God. The discussion covers Rosalie's background, the signs of abuse, the harrowing experiences she endured, and how she was ultimately saved, both physically and spiritually. This episode aims to provide hope and encouragement to those in abusive situations, emphasizing the importance of faith, support systems, and professional help. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:47 Welcome to the Podcast 01:26 Introducing Today's Guest: Rosalie Janelle 02:31 Rosalie's Background and Upbringing 04:42 College Years and Faith Struggles 07:21 Entering an Abusive Relationship 09:40 Escalation of Abuse 18:16 Struggles with Self-Worth and Infidelity 19:40 A Violent Turning Point 23:39 Realization and Rock Bottom 24:27 The Violent Incident 26:10 Aftermath and Legal Proceedings 26:56 Spiritual Awakening 30:39 Healing Journey 35:19 Therapy and EMDR 40:30 Advice for Those in Abusive Situations 43:31 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Website: www.thegoodnewspodcast.org Email: genaor@gmail.com Social media links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Rosellygenao Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zealouzlysweet/ My podcast: The Good News Podcast www.thegoodnewspodcast.org Available on Anchor, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Google Podcasts, Pocket Cast, Radio Public Bio: Roselly Genao is a podcast host, spiritual coach and an operations supervisor in the emergency services industry. Roselly has been serving God faithfully since November 2019, shortly after she survived a traumatic attack on her life. Roselly's affinity is drawing people nearer to Christ through encouragement and inspiration. She currently is the host of The Good News Podcast and is a certified emotional first aide provider. With these means she helps bring people closer to God daily in conjunction with serving God.   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/ [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello everyone. How are you doing ? I'm glad you joined me today on my podcast. We have a survivor story today. I think you'll be really blessed by her story. Rosalie. Janelle is on the show today. And I hope that you'll listen closely to what she has to share with you. She's the host of the Good News podcast. She's going to bring a raw and honest story of how she got into an abusive relationship and how she got out, how she found the Lord, and how she has started her healing journey. So without [00:02:00] further ado, here's Rosalie. Welcome, Rosalie Janelle to the show. Thank you so much for coming on. No problem. I'm happy to be here. Diana, thank you for inviting me on. Now the tables are turned , you're in the guest chair today? Yes. My first time too, so I'm not used to it. I was just on her podcast, the Good News podcast. Mm-hmm. And uh, that's what podcasters do. We go on each other's shows. Yes. Amen. Absolutely. I'm happy to be here. So tell the audience a little bit about your fine self. Yes, absolutely. So as Diana mentioned, my name is Rosalie Genow. I go by Rose, by trade. I'm a manager of an operation center. And, by night I'm a podcast host of the Good News podcast and, full-time. I'm a believer for Jesus. I love, spreading the gospel, talking to others about the gospel, and what he has done in my life. So that's why I'm here. Awesome. So let's start from the [00:03:00] beginning. What was your family upbringing like? Were you raised in a Christian home? Oh, this question from the beginning. I wasn't, I was raised in a Catholic home. And I say that very loosely because my parents weren't practicing when I was growing up. They mostly like practice, up until the point I was born. And then I got baptized as a baby into the Catholic. Church. But I still went to Catholic school, so we weren't practicing at home, but I went to Catholic school, so that kind of shaped, you know, gave me a little bit of foundation as I was growing up. But weirdly enough, I still, I didn't know God and not when I was younger. So what was, your home like growing up? I mean, it was typical. I don't think that it was, abnormal. I had both my parents, I have, I'm one of three, I have two siblings and I. I don't know. I don't, I wouldn't say it was atypical. It was a loving home. I was involved in a lot of extracurricular activities growing up in [00:04:00] school. I was, involved in, pretty much every group that you could think of. I was a good academic kid. My siblings, they did, have their children, a little on the younger side, so. Towards like my teenage years, I was growing up in the home alone. 'Cause my siblings moved out and started their families. And at that point in time when I was a teenager, I was a little bit of a, I was trouble, I was definitely trouble. I was not making great decisions. I started dating really young. Oh gosh. Probably younger than I should have. And, I think that really started, in my early college years, I really started to make some pretty bad decisions. So it started in my teenage years. So when you went off to college, you said that you had a collapse of your faith. What was your relationship with God like then in your life? Yeah, when I got to college, I wasn't really practicing any kind of religion or [00:05:00] even praying to God. My life was, like I said, I started a tr a path on my life where I was making da bad decisions almost daily. Now looking back, I think it was, the lack of having a relationship with God. But I would say that in the beginning of my college career, I had no relationship with God. I actually was very confused, because I had graduated from a Catholic, high school, and then I went to a Catholic university and I was seeking answers. So I was going to the Catholic mass, almost weekly, but it was kind of like just going through the motions of my, that was in the first year of my, of. The first semester of college and then I went to a girlfriend's church. And it was a non-denominational Christian Church, probably second semester of freshman year. And, that kind of started to change my perspective. On, God and who he was and who Jesus is because, it was so different than the Catholic church. So, mm-hmm. It sparked us an interest, but I would [00:06:00] say not enough for me to do anything about it. Not at the time. Yeah. I can relate. I was raised Catholic. I know it means to go through the motions on the outside and nothing happening on the inside really. So you mentioned you made some bad choices in life. Why do you think that happened? I mean, for me at the time there was definitely, I was definitely going through a lot of stuff, just on the inside because I didn't have any kind of foundation. I didn't have any, belief and a higher power at that point in time. So I kind of saw life for what it was. It felt worthless, it felt like, so I made some pretty bad choices based off that root feeling of just feeling like, you know, there was no purpose for life. And I actually fell into depression. And during college, I was mixed up in bad relationships, through college. And then ultimately I ended up dropping out of college because. I was just making horrible decisions. I was partying all night and all of those things stemmed from the fact that I [00:07:00] viewed life as purposeless and therefore I didn't give myself enough self-worth. Mm-hmm. So, mm-hmm. So it sounds like you were prime target for an abusive relationship that you got into. Would you be able to talk about that? Were there any red flags beforehand? Yeah. So, let's backtrack a little bit. Mm-hmm. So, after college, I actually, was with, a man who was semi abusive. Like we, we had really toxic, arguments. There was a once or twice where there was, physical fights between him and I. And ultimately when I left college, I walked away from that, you know? Mm-hmm. And I left college and I had to move back to Massachusetts. So I went to Seton Hall in New Jersey. And obviously after dropping out and not being able to afford living in New Jersey by myself, I was 20. I had to come back home to Massachusetts. And so when I did come back home to Massachusetts, I kinda just walked away from that relationship in college and I thought that, I didn't [00:08:00] think anything of it, I didn't see that it was an abusive relationship, my college relationship. I didn't think that it was anything outside of the normal. I thought I was like, oh, I'm 20 and I'm passionate. Fast forward probably. Let's see, I don't know how old I was , let's go back, let's go to 2016. Fast forward 2016. I dropped outta college in 2014 and I met a guy. He was actually a friend of a friend, so I met him through my friend and one of my closest girlfriends, honestly. And, and he came highly recommended. She thought she knew him. So she was like, yeah, you should give him a try. You know how to try going out with him, he seems like a good person. And so I did, to your question, and this is like late 2016, we started dating and within the first three months there were certainly red flags. I didn't see them then. Mm-hmm. Or maybe I did and I chose not to, but there was certainly a lot of, things that he didn't like about me. That [00:09:00] he ma he was vocal about from the very start, he, did not accept me for who I was. I come from a really small town, in Massachusetts. That's. Pretty ghetto. And he, often used to refer me to me as like a statistic of that same, city because a lot of people don't, they don't make it out of that city with a college degree or anything like that. And I had dropped out and so he used that, that oh, education target on my back, like to really make me feel bad. And that was only in the first three months. So there was definitely red flags. Did I listen? No. Yeah, I was guilty of ignoring red flags in my abusive relationship too. The relationship progresses, so when did you know the real abuse start? Mm-hmm. What kind of abuses did you endure? Yeah, like I said from the beginning, I feel like even three months in, even though, he wasn't physically, or even at that point, maybe emotionally abusive, but he [00:10:00] was definitely verbally abusive in the way he spoke to me. So I would say as early as those, it took me a really long time to actually understand that was abuse too. So as early as three months in, he was degrading me with words. And oftentimes, I would cry myself to sleep because I didn't know, I believed what he was saying, because I had, such a low self-esteem, such a self, a low self-worth. I believed everything that he said because I was like, well, it must be true. It's silly. But, i'm sorry, I kind of backtracked very common thought process that we deserve being treated this way. That's very common. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But one thing led to another and, eventually the relationship became, emotionally abusive. Like he was very manipulative. He wanted to kind of just. Make every decision for me. And I didn't know he was doing it. He would do it. He was very persuasive. He was very charming. And I actually, when I started [00:11:00] dating him, I started my walk with God. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know that he would be the one thing to deter it because I thought he was a Christian. I thought that he was in the church too. So we would go to church together. Oh, we had the whole deal together. Like it was just a front, and because I was like, oh, well he's, you know, obviously, I didn't marry him, but I also, the fact that I grew up in a Dominican household also played a part to it. I'm sorry if I'm jumping all over the place. No, you're fine. But, yeah, it played a role into the way I viewed men in my life because I thought that they always needed to be the, I'm Dominican, that culture's very, you know, the man is the head of the household, very machista, very, they gotta be the strong leader. And, so because I grew up in that setting, or with those examples, I would say. Not setting because my father was very different. But I saw that all around in the rest of my family. I definitely felt like I needed to have that in my life and I needed to follow [00:12:00] his lead, even though the lead was horrible. And so, I was like, all right, he's leading me anyways. We're going to church together. We're strengthening our faith together. This can't be that bad. That's what I used to tell myself. And there was a couple times that our verbal arguments got physical where he would pin me down. At times he would push me. It was a number of things. I tell myself all the time, I'm not even sure that I remember every single incident because there were so many at this point. And so ultimately. Towards the end of the relationship, he tried to kill me and oh, that's when I had to leave. Well, I didn't have an option. So it, it was a lot of physical, I'm sorry, a lot of verbal. And then ultimately physical abuse. So he was definitely faking it with the church stuff. And yeah, I mean, I don't, I didn't, I don't know. I would say definitely faking it, but also probably struggling on his own, and you mentioned your [00:13:00] background, but. I didn't even have that background of being Dominican or Spanish, but that seems to be a prevalent mindset in American culture, that the man is in charge and you're supposed to do what you're told and put up with it. Yeah, and that's why we don't fight back is because of the society that we are raised in, and then some of us have. An empathetic personality that results in wanting us to help people or maybe fix people. Was that true with you? Oh yeah. Absolutely. Especially by nature. I'm just like a, I'm a helper by nature. I want to help improve anything. I'm a manager, that's what I do. So I, with, when it came to my ex there was, he definitely had some, things internally going on that I thought. I was the answer to that I thought that I could help him with. There was definitely some anger stuff, and some unresolved trauma, so I was like, well. I'm pretty good at this stuff because I didn't, [00:14:00] at that point in my life, I hadn't really gone through much trauma. But I worked in the behavioral health field, so I'm like, I can help, I also love him so I can help. Mm-hmm. So each time that we had an issue I would focus on fixing either myself or trying to plead with him, see my side if I really thought that I was true, but oftentimes I was trying to fix him or I to be. Perfect for each other. For lack of better words. And you mentioned the word love. You loved him. What was your definition of love then? Yes. Well, I definitely, certainly did not know what love was then. Because, and I will say like it has a direct co correlation with the fact that I didn't know Jesus yet. Because I don't truly believe you can experience love without knowing Jesus. My definition of love back then was very, temporal. It was very, I don't even know what's the best word to explain it, but it was shallow. It was just based off of [00:15:00] appearances and what, what you can do for me and what I can do for you type of love. So not at all anything like what the love of God offers us. And I can say that now. I definitely know that I didn't know Jesus then. So I didn't know how to love or be properly loved. You were how old again? Whew. I didn't think about that. Let's see. Early in the twenties, right? Yeah. Yeah. I was 20, 24, 25, 24 when I started dating him. And then 20, oh gosh, I don't know. Yeah, I'm 27 now, so that was two years ago. So I was about like 22 to 26 when I was dating him, or 25. I think all the young people, including myself, when I was in my twenties, I was very gullible and innocent and trusting and yeah, I didn't know what love was and my mother made it very clear that, oh, well you don't, you have no clue what love is [00:16:00] and no mom, I, maybe I don't, but I'm gonna find out. And. You learn as you get older. You learn by experience. You learn when you meet Jesus, you learn how he loved us and how we are to love others. So, don't be too hard on yourself. Right? Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I hear you. Yeah. No, my mom said the same thing growing up. You don't know. I love is, I think we often hear that and we don't actually understand what it is until we either lack, real love or we experience it for the first time. Yeah, because our parents, they see the people that we date and they're like, oh no, not for my kid. That's not a good choice for you, but we don't listen. Yeah. It actually, it's so funny you mentioned that it actually was different with my ex in that accord because my entire family actually loved him. Really? My entire family actually. Did not. Well, for two reasons. I was never vocal about the abuse. I never actually told everybody the real [00:17:00] truth about what was going on behind closed doors. So that was the first thing. And like I said earlier, he was charming. He would, he was persuasive. He got along with just about everybody. And when I tell you, like most of my family, I'm probably to this day, they still say the same thing. They said, we were shocked. We were surprised 'cause they did not see it coming. Well. Mm-hmm. I think my dad and my stepmother didn't really know the extent of the abuse. They saw some things. And they didn't like him, but they would never interfere out of respect for me. My mother and my sister were a little more vocal about, I don't like him. He, he pushes you around, he bosses you around. He's, he is arrogant and he is rude and. All those things, but mm-hmm. No, I didn't, I didn't listen. So at this point in your relationship you suffered a lot up to this point. Mm-hmm. Would you say that you were an angel at that time? No, I [00:18:00] definitely would not say that. And, before it was really difficult for me to explain this portion of my story because I couldn't do it without guilt or shame because that's what the enemy tries to, ki tries to keep us in shame and secrecy. Mm-hmm. But I mean, in my relationship with my ex, I have, I, I became unfaithful and little. Did I know then because I didn't understand then why I was seeking other men, and I was see, , seeking attention from other guys. It all ties to, for me, it all ties to the fact that I, I had a really low self-esteem and my self-worth was probably on the ground again. I didn't know God, I didn't really have a relationship with him. I, like I was saying I was going to church, but I was just going through the motions 'cause it's what I used to do and I was going to a Christian Church at this time. But it's just based on the foundation that I had from growing up in that Catholic church and I was, I just knew to go through the motions. I didn't really understand that I needed [00:19:00] to practice a relationship with God. So even though I was going to church while I was in this relationship, I didn't know God enough to know the love that he had for me and therefore make better decisions. So I saw other men, I saw, attention from particularly this one other guy, and I got really involved with him while I was with my ex. And ultimately the, that was something that made the abuse worse. Mm-hmm. Because my ex found out about it, and he, there was two occasions where on one occasion, the first time that he found out about the other guy, it was, oh, it was tough. He dragged me outta my bed. I was sleeping and he, Ooh. Just woke me up and dragged me outta the bed because he saw the text messages from the other guy. And I remember in that morning, so me and my ex used to live with a roommate at that time. And I remember in that morning, my, [00:20:00] our roommate, our third roommate, she was at her boyfriend's house. Mm-hmm. So I, but I completely forgot. And when. He dragged me outta bed and I saw how violent he was about to get with me. He had pinned me down to the ground. I started to yell. I started to, well, I tried to start to yell her name out. And then a, like a voice was like, no one's here. In my head, oh, and I felt so abandoned, Diana. Oh, I felt so alone. I was like, oh my goodness, I'm alone. No one's going to know what happened to me if this man does something to me today. And so, the rest of that day was. Horrifying. He got, he was violent, but then also he was violent towards himself. He tried to he tried to hold me hostage by basically selling. Me that he was gonna kill himself. He took a, a knife and mm-hmm. And we were in the kitchen for over an hour [00:21:00] and I was trying to try and deescalate the situation. I must have called his, well his family's not, wasn't in Massachusetts at the time. So they were far. So I, I must have called his sister, his cousin, like everybody trying to get them on the phone too, just. Reason with him. 'cause he wouldn't reason with me at that point in time. And he was also scared. He was scared that he knew, like he had, abused me before and that I was kind of at that breaking point, he's like, I think you're gonna turn me in because it got so bad. And I. At the end of the day, his brother who lived at State over got there. He probably drove down like an hour, which is unheard of. Mm-hmm. And. He deescalated the situation he got, he got him out of the house. He moved everything out that day. So I left to my sister's house so that he can get everything out. And I ultimately went to the police station. I got a restraining order that [00:22:00] day, but that wasn't the end, a for me, I couldn't. I don't know. My definition of love was messed up back then, so I thought that I was still in love with him. So it wasn't even like four days or five days later that I went back to the courthouse and I dropped a restraining order so that I could be with him again, because I thought that, it was a mistake and he was, and I was guilt, I was feeling so guilty because of my my unfaithfulness. So I was like, I felt like I hurt him. I didn't even, I disregarded all the, everything that he did to me. And I just was like, well, I hurt him. I have to go back and help him and want to tend to his feelings. 'cause, he felt betrayed and not loved by me at the time. So. It just blows my mind. It just yeah. That you would go back to fix his problems. Which I think, and I'm sure you agree with me, this just makes it worse. [00:23:00] You going back after all of that. Because you felt guilty, which was misplaced guilt. Okay. That's, it's great that you acknowledged that you made a mistake, but, that doesn't cancel out his abusive behavior. Absolutely. And I thought it did. That's it. I love the word that you used, canceled. For me, that's what I thought it was like, all right, well I did this. So he did that. And, and of course, like I said, going back to what I said earlier, I believed all the things that he told me about me. Mm-hmm. I believed that I, that's what I deserved. And so I didn't see it as, I didn't view it as an issue or a problem. Now, when did you finally come to your senses and say, I've had enough. I'm at rock bottom. I've got to get out of this relationship. I mean, for good. Yeah. It didn't come by my own, choice. And I say that because a lot of people think that, you always just get to walk out of a [00:24:00] abusive a relationship or you just choose to go, and that's not the case. I went back to him and ultimately we had a lot of issues up until the last time that I saw him. And I was still being unfaithful. I was still seeking attention from other men. And so again, at this point, he's not trusting of me. He's still looking through my phone. He's following me at this point to everywhere that I go. And, on the last. Occasion, we went to a party and we went back to his house after the party and we were both drunk. And he went through my phone and he saw a text message from the other guy. And basically that's when he, that's the night that he tried to kill me. He, it was the most violent he had been with me, throwing me around the room, really just using me. As a punching bag. Mm-hmm. And, up until the point where he tried to strangle me and I don't really know how I got out of the str out of his choke [00:25:00] hold. But I did. And then ultimately I ran outside after that and the neighbors were there and the neighbors, they didn't even want to get involved. We lived in an apartment building in a three story apartment building, and I didn't knock on anybody's door because I was afraid. I just didn't know what to do. He took my phone, well he threw my phone out the window. It was just a bad situation, you know? And I was just trying to run out of the building. And when I was trying to run out of the building, there was neighbors coming inside the building. Mm-hmm. And they saw both of us. They saw that his shirt was ripped, they saw me, I had blood, I had, I was probably looking all crazy. Wow. And they. Like, well, we don't really wanna get involved in this. This seems like a, I don't know, I don't even know the words that they use. But instead of calling the police they asked him, they got involved. They said, oh, can you just give her phone back? That's basically what they told him. And I'm like, no, I need you guys to call 9 1 1 because he tried to kill me. He's not going to call [00:26:00] 9 1 1. And so ultimately after some push and pull, whatever. They gave me their phone. I called nine one one. And the ambulance showed up. The police showed up and they detained him. And so back to the question that you asked, when did I choose to leave? Or when did I have enough after this incident? The fact that the Lord delivered me from death because mm-hmm. I don't know how I got out of his choke. He was much stronger than me. He went, we went to through the court, he went to jail. We did all of that. I didn't really have a choice. The relationship had to be over at that point. Mm-hmm. It didn't feel like that for me. Even for months after that. It didn't feel like I, I wanted to leave. And that's the crazy part. That's the part that I was so deep into his manipulation, into his tricks, that even at that point, I felt like I still owed him something. It wasn't until maybe about six [00:27:00] months later that I gave, when I truly gave my life to Christ that I knew. That everything that I had felt about guilt and everything that he had done to me, that it was all wrong. It was so wrong. And I, that's when I knew, but it, it didn't happen immediately. Even I was at the point of death and in the hospital waking up all that. It wasn't the point where I said I had enough. I didn't have a choice at that point to be with him because of the situation, but I would say when I found Jesus was when I really knew that. I deserve so much more. It sounds like you had a lot of codependency going on there. Mm-hmm. And that is a real stronghold. That's almost like brainwashing from a cult. Mm-hmm. If somebody trying to kill you and you're in the hospital and you don't think that, well, I need to get out of this relationship. And everybody would talk to me and everybody would ask me like, what do you wanna [00:28:00] do? I had to sit through court proceedings where he was present and. I was going, I've always been a person who has like, pretty strong morale, even though I didn't mm-hmm. Like I said, like I grew up knowing right from wrong. Mm-hmm. And I knew at the time that the right thing to do was to continue going to court, cooperate so that he would be sentenced and everything go through the trial so that he wouldn't do this to other women. Mm-hmm. I knew that was the right thing to do. I didn't wanna do it though. I didn't wanna be a part of that. I didn't wanna be a part of something that could con particularly like, follow him around for the rest of his life. It was really sick in the beginning. But ultimately I did the right thing, and I look back and I know that it was the correct thing. Because you just have to do it because you just never know if somebody like that is gonna change. You can pray. But you don't know and you [00:29:00] don't want anyone else to fall into that trap. Just looking back at your story, it looks like the Lord intervened in your life. Maybe that was an angel that he sent to get you outta that choke hold. Maybe it was him that put your abuser in jail so you could get out. Did you have anybody else that was on your side or anybody else who helped you? Absolutely. When my family, became aware of what happened because I called them that night and, everybody showed up at the hospital. My mom was there, my aunt, my sister, they all came to the hospital. They just didn't know. They didn't, my sister had guessed a couple things 'cause she had seen him follow me. She had noticed him in the last month or two before that. So she had known something was up, but she didn't know that it was this bad. And, so she was right there. They all of them were right there, but had they known, they, I think they would've been there, before and they would've tried to get me out before. But like I [00:30:00] said, because of my own doing and my own wishes of wanting to be there, I just stayed. I. Without telling them. But my family was, they were really supportive after and during the court and the trials and everything, they were very supportive. And there was one person in particular who was probably key in getting me to go back to the church. Mm-hmm. And, yeah, I consider him an older brother and he, I grew up with around him and he had a church. He has a church in Massachusetts. Well. He goes to a church in Massachusetts and he always invited me. And so, that really was what helped me turn my life around at that point. So tell us how you, found the Lord Jesus as your savior For real now? Yeah. Yeah, for real. And I always tell people, I'm like, I think I got saved in thousand 15, but, and I used to say that before, but now I know that, he really saved me in 2019, not only because of what he delivered me from, but because I knew, I felt it. I [00:31:00] felt his love. I felt. Everything I felt redeemed. So I would say like June of 2019, I, which was only about six months after the incident and I. Was after, after the incident, I was going to church still. I was, like I said, I, there was not really a period of time that I wasn't going to church. I was always going to church, but it was always a through the motions kind of deal, and I never really prayed and I never really, I didn't even read the word I, the only word that I got was on Sundays. And mm-hmm. Then ultimately on, in June of 2019, I said. Something's gotta change because I knew mm-hmm. That everything that I had experienced up until that point and all of my feelings of like still wanting to be with my ex even after everything were, so, they were, they came from a place, an evil place, right? Because I just knew that the Lord wouldn't send me back to that type of relationship. So I. [00:32:00] I started being intentional. I started just like saying, okay, God. I would sit with him in the morning and just say, God, I need you to show me why I'm here. And I kept on asking that question, why I am here and why I'm here. And he didn't answer that question. He answered a DA different question that I didn't even know that I had in my heart. He answered like the questions about. My feeling, my not feeling abandoned. Sorry, how do I say this? He answered my questions about me. Being loved by him. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know I had those questions because I was just like, well, I just, I'm a fixer by nature, so I just wanted to fix all the, I was like, I need my pur, I need my purpose and I need to walk into it. That's it. Yeah. That's what I wanted to do. And I was like, I need to learn how to do this. But by spending time with him daily. And really just getting into his word and learning his character, I learned his love. I learned that he loved me beyond every single thing that I had done. And I was able to walk out of the shame and [00:33:00] fear and guilt that I had wa I had walked in for so long because I, at that point I felt like I had made too many. Bad decisions, too many, just things that I was ashamed of. But when I was spending that time with him, he was like, I don't care about all that. He's like, I love you the way you are. I made you and I'm going to love you no matter what. And slowly but surely, he started to reveal his character to me. He started to reveal my purpose on this earth. And that's when I say that, I really got saved, but there was no like, aha moment. There was no, none of that. It was just like I, I had to start being intentional about it. I had to, if I wanted to see a change, I knew that something different, I had to do something different. Yeah. The Lord's been pursuing you your whole life. He was just waiting for you to Absolutely. Turn around and see him. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So I say that healing is always a journey. There is no I've arrived [00:34:00] or I'm healed a hundred percent. It's a journey throughout our life. How did you start the healing process and what steps did you take besides church? I mean, I really changed my decisions. In my social life I reduced the amount that I was drinking. I used to drink a lot of alcohol that mm-hmm. I remember there was times that I drank alcohol to the point of blackout. So I reduced the amount of drinking I was doing. I reduced I increased the amount of times that I was in church a week. I was in church twice or three times a week rather than just on Sundays. And then. I told my family, I'm making a decision to make church a priority in my life. God, the priority, not just not the church, God, a priority in my life. So ev everything that did not serve that purpose, I tried to just remove out of it. I was in a job that I was unhappy, so I left it. I pursued a job that was. Quiet it, it just allowed me to take a step back from management. It wasn't in the limelight. I [00:35:00] didn't have a lot of pressure, so I could spend a lot of time with God. And then most important, next to God, I took, I started therapy. I did therapy. Mm-hmm. And I did a trauma specific therapy. I did EMDR and I. But that's the second thing next to Jesus that changed my life. So explain what is EMDR for those that don't know what that is? Yeah, I haven't had to explain this in a while, but I'll try my best. It's called, lemme see if I can get this right. It's called eye movement. Desensitizing reprocessing, I think it is. Yes. And it's a yes. I tried. And it's a type of therapy that specifics on specifies on like if you have had childhood trauma or any kind of trauma really, and you use physical movements like tapping or eye movements to walk you through the memories and reprocess those memories and desensitize them. The emotions that are attached to it. So I [00:36:00] did that with the entire experience that I went through with my ex up until the point where he tried to kill me. And a lot of stuff was brought up during that during that year that I did therapy. It was very intense. It was hard work. It is hard, but I believed the Lord. For bringing me to that therapist because it was a very godsend, like it was a referral. And I knew that if I saw it through that on the other side, I was gonna come out the person that the Lord wanted me to come out. And that's exactly what happened. So I tell the listeners that are, there are many different tools for healing. Not everybody chooses the same tool. It's whatever's. Helpful for them and their situation. So you thought that therapist and that technique was really helpful for you, it sounds like. Yeah, because something that I noticed like I said, a lot of. Yes. I wasn't an abusive relationship, but there was some decision making in [00:37:00] my past choices that obviously weren't rooted out of that abusive relationship that came out of a different place. And I had done talk that I, I mentioned I was depressed in 2014 and when, mm-hmm. When I left college, I had. Done talk therapy. I had done all of that and it didn't work. CBT kind of stuff. And so I was like, I need something that's gonna be specific. Look at me just being a fixer and a planner, right? I was like, I need something that's gonna be specific and it's going to target this trauma that I just went through and help me come out a better person. And EMDR is truly if you are, that, if you're looking for results, that's what. You'll get if you apply yourself. I like what you said about there were issues that you had that were not related to the abuse. A lot of people, they wanna ignore those things and blame. Mm-hmm. Everything on the abuse. Well, we are complex creatures, aren't we? Absolutely. Oh. It's not always black and white, cut and dry. There are, aspects [00:38:00] of our personalities, our upbringing that are separate from the abuse that also need to be. Dealt with and healed. Yeah, too. So I'm glad you mentioned that 'cause that is important. But you're admitting that yes, you found the Lord and you're on your journey of healing, but it wasn't all unicorns and rainbows. There were some struggles and that we are going to struggle. Absolutely. Or we just keep going forward, right? Absolutely. It was not a, walk in the park after I made that decision. And especially for me, who was somebody who was battling, I was battling, just sexual temptation, lust desiring to just be in the world, drink alcohol, those things, those were not easy decisions to make. But. I had the strength of the Lord because I was with him and he was with me. Amen. And so I did it. Yeah. But it was not easy because there was, and especially I'm still young. I'm, I was what, 25 when I started making that, those choices. Mm-hmm. To turn to the Lord and. It's [00:39:00] just, it goes against everything that a natural 25-year-old wants. Yes. And you're being honest here, and I'm sure the listeners appreciate that you're being real with us. Yeah, absolutely. You're not pretending that, everything is hunky dory and you're perfect. No, absolutely not. So what is your relationship with God like right now? I think it's awesome. He's my best friend. I talk to him daily. I go to church. I'm involved in my church. I'm a spiritual coach. I have the good news podcast. I don't know. I don't find anything more gratifying than using every aspect of my life to glorify God and to glorify his holy name. And that's what I do every single day. I try at least. Amen. You're definitely different. The new rose looks different than the old rose. Oh my gosh, yes. And I laugh because this is something that. I am still experiencing with people that know me, that have known [00:40:00] me for many years. They're like, you're different now. Mm-hmm. And I get this so often now within my family, friends, they're like, oh, the old Rose wouldn't do this. Or the old, or the old rose was you. I get this a lot was fun. And I'm like, your definition of fun and my definition of fun now is completely different because I no longer want the things that the world has to offer. Yep. The things I used to do, I don't do them anymore. There's a song I put away My child. Just things. Yes. We have a lot of listeners who are listening to your powerful story today, and they're in an abusive situation right now. What advice would you give them right now? Oh, this is hard. I think I, I have so many. We still got 10 more minutes left on. Okay. So I got it. Well, if you don't know, God, that's my first piece of advice is to get to know him. I don't think that I could have gotten out [00:41:00] of my situation without him. I know that. I know that, like I said, my hand was forced because I. Was at the hospital and he was in jail. And it was no other choice, but I think that was God. God really delivered me from death and deliver, delivered me from that situation to get me to the place that I am now. So if you don't know God, it's so important that you have a relationship with him because he's gonna guide you the best. And secondly, trust somebody. Trust any someone in your life and talk to them about it. I didn't. And it made me feel so alone. It made me feel abandoned. Mm-hmm. And I know now that I have a. Army of people who love me and will, go to war for me. And I didn't think that, you think that oftentimes because of the choices that you make and ultimately for me, like, I thought all of my decisions was what warranted that abuse. So we get to a place where we don't wanna reach out for help because we're like, people are gonna look at me and say well, you [00:42:00] did that to yourself, but that's not. I learned that wasn't true. That the people that are there for you, that love you will help you out of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I tell my listeners all the time, I'm available to help people. I'll help. I'll help you any way I can, and I'm sure that you would say the same thing. Absolutely. Yeah. You would help anybody that reached out to you for help. Yes. I'm always happy to be an a listening ear. I literally, like I said, I'm a spiritual coach, so my phone is on twenty four seven. I answer calls, texts, voice notes, whatever. Yes. Awesome. Rose has her good news podcast. Yes. So you can hear her putting me in the hot seat for a change. And so you can listen to that on her show. How can the listeners connect with you? Absolutely. I am on, well, the Good News podcast, you could go to ww dot the good news podcast.org. You could find it on [00:43:00] iTunes and Spotify, but I'm also on Facebook, Instagram, and I'll have all that stuff in the show notes for everybody. Mm-hmm. Was there anything we left out that you wanted to tell the good folks listening? No, other than just thank you for having me. This has been awesome, and I just hope my prayer is that this, episode blesses somebody and gives them the strength and the courage to, to do what I, to do what I didn't get to do, leave. So, amen. Mm-hmm. Amen. Yes. This has been great. I've enjoyed listening to you tell your story again, and how the Lord's brought you to where you're at now. Thank you. God bless you. God bless you too. And all your listeners, wow, wasn't she great folks? It's an amazing story. So you be sure to reach out to Rosalie and listen to her podcast. I hope this encouraged you. It [00:44:00] sure encouraged me. So thank you so much everybody for tuning in today. We're going to see you next week. God bless you everybody. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.

In this mind-bending episode of SaaS Fuel, Jeff Mains chats with Darren Milne, co-founder and CEO of VividQ, about the future of holographic displays and how true 3D experiences will revolutionize everything from automotive HUDs to the way we watch TV, work, and interact with AI. Darren Milne unpacks his journey from academia to entrepreneurship, describes the defining moment when he saw a real hologram for the first time, and outlines how his team is making science fiction a reality—including progress toward room-scale “holodecks.” Along the way, you'll learn practical lessons about bridging science and commercialization, building successful licensing models, scaling with partnerships, and staying grounded while pursuing world-changing innovation.Key Takeaways00:00 "Holographic AI Revolution"05:15 From Academia to Business Shift14:08 "Holographic Display Business Strategy"19:31 Automotive HUDs: Future-Ready Adaptability24:48 "VR Nausea Explained by Science"29:41 Building-Sized Holograms Revolution32:57 "Creating Our Own Category"42:25 "Software-Driven Hardware Control"47:05 "Challenges of Licensing Innovation"51:59 "Rethinking Growth and Investment"56:05 "Epic Holographic Display Project"01:02:20 "Insights, AI Growth, and Holodecks"Tweetable Quotes“Sometimes, in the pursuit of knowledge, you need a lot more money—and the way to get that is to create things people want to buy.” — Darren Milne“The cars are all different, but with holography, the HUD doesn't have to be. Software solves what used to take an assembly line.” — Darren Milne “Every time I show a real hologram demo, people still ask if it's fake. Once you see it, everything changes.” — Darren Milne“You don't need to build all the hardware to win big—sometimes licensing your tech brings more scale and staying power.” — Darren Milne“If money were no object, I'd build the holodeck—an entire room of interactive holograms for training, gaming, everything.” — Darren Milne“We thought building-sized holograms required new tech, but turns out we could do it with off-the-shelf laptop screens…and a lot of them.” — Darren Milne SaaS Leadership LessonsEmbrace Mindset ShiftsMoving from academia to entrepreneurship means valuing impact as much as knowledge. Sometimes, making ideas real requires leaving comfort zones.Specialize, Then DelegateYou can't be both the chief researcher and the chief executive for long. Recognize your strengths and trust your team to handle complementary roles.Validate with Partners, Not Just ProductEarly commercial traction can come from licensing and partnerships, especially when full-scale manufacturing or hardware isn't feasible.Solve for ROI, Not Just CoolnessCustomers may love new tech, but recurring revenue comes from solving their biggest, most overlooked pain (e.g., HUD manufacturing savings).Don't Hire for Vanity, Hire for NecessityRapid hiring because “everyone else is scaling” can lead to layoffs and wasted resources if the technology isn't ready for mass adoption.Stay Resilient & HonestLong sales cycles and the need to “build the category” require grit. When mistakes happen (such as premature scaling), own them, learn, and course correct.Guest Resourceshttps://www.vividq.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/darran-milne/Episode SponsorThe Captain's KeysSmall Fish, Big Pond – https://smallfishbigpond.com/ Use the promo code...

Diana revisits a former interview with the late Dave Ebert, who went to be with Jesus in July 2024. His wife, Bobbie Ebert, joins the conversation to discuss their unique ministry. The couple uses improv comedy as a tool to help survivors of sex trafficking rediscover their voice, improve communication, and build confidence. Bobby shares her personal story of overcoming abuse and finding faith, while Dave discusses their journey into full-time ministry and their goal of creating a residential facility to support survivors. The episode also touches on the importance of laughter and joy in the healing process and provides details on how listeners can support their mission. 00:00 Introduction: Comedy and Sex Trafficking? 00:23 Sponsor Message: 7 5 3 Academy 01:11 Welcome to The Wounds of the Faithful Podcast 01:42 Introducing Dave and Bobby Ebert 02:12 The Power of Improv Comedy in Healing 04:48 Dave's Ministry Journey 07:50 Bobby's Testimony and Healing Journey 15:38 How Dave and Bobby Met 24:16 A Surprise Proposal 25:29 The Significance of the Ring 26:07 Life After Marriage 27:11 Transition to Full-Time Ministry 28:11 Using Comedy to Heal Trauma 29:24 The Missionary Journey 32:16 Fundraising and Support 32:48 Future Plans and Goals 35:06 The Power of Laughter 41:17 Final Thoughts and Call to Action The website is still up after his passing. Bobbie may be keeping the ministry going in his place. www.gifts4glory.com   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/   Dave and Bobbie Ebert [00:00:00] What does comedy and sex trafficking have to do with each other? It's not what you think. We have my guest, Dave Ebert on the show again from the first season of the show to talk to us about his ministry once again. So find out the answer to my question next on The Wounds of the Faithful podcast. Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They [00:01:00] take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello friends. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm so glad to be here with you. We have a great show for you. More Dave Ebert. If you didn't hear Dave's first interview, please go back and listen to it. It was excellent. He told his personal [00:02:00] story and then how he started his ministry. He's gonna bring his wife tonight because they're doing this together. So you wanted to get the answer to the question that I posed in the beginning. The power of improv comedy in healing and growth. Reverends Dave and Bobby Ebert are on a unique mission to minister to survivors of sex trafficking using the power of improv comedy. With their help survivors find their voice, tap into their creativity, improve communication, and rediscover confidence as US missionaries. They use their unique calling to help those in need and bring light to the darkest of situations. So there areas of focus on their webpage here. Use comedy to break down walls and find the good soil for the seeds of God's word to be [00:03:00] planted. Rebuild confidence through fun, creative games and challenges. So these survivors are better prepared to reenter society. Provide a needed respite from the challenges of healing and recovery by creating a safe, fun, and laughter rich environment. Demonstrate the love of the father and share the redeeming power of Christ to encourage forgiveness of those who inflicted the unimaginable trauma. So I think you're gonna really enjoy Dave and Bobby. I mean, what, what could go wrong with comedians, right? I know that you're going to be blessed with their stories and their vision to help sex Traffick victims to heal. So without delay. Here's my conversation with Dave and Bobby Ebert. Please welcome back to the [00:04:00] show, Dave Ebert, and we also have his wife Bobby, on the show with us tonight. Welcome both of you guys. Thank you, Diana, for having us back or having me back. And then first time guest, long time listener. Bobby, thanks for having us. This is gonna be great having, uh, comedians on the show again, and you're on episode 12 of season one. So I definitely wanna see what you've been up to since then and you have some updates for us today. Yeah, absolutely. Did you want us to start? There's, there's a lot to cover. Yeah. Just remind the folks what you do, and then I'll have Bobby tell the folks a little bit about herself and what role she plays in the ministry you have there. Awesome. So for the last, decade, I've, run an improv ministry based here in Chicago where we sp spring the, light of Christ into various rooms using comedy to bring people together. [00:05:00] Most of our shows have been either ministry to the homeless or it's been fundraisers where we've raised funds for everything from animal care shelters to people who lost part of their home in a fire. To camps for foster kids, and it's all about bringing people together and uniting them in laughter. 'cause I truly believe that laughter is a gift from God because he knew that things would get stressful and science bears out that laughter is such a stress reliever, such a healthy benefit for the body that there's no way that happened by accident. God designed laughter as a gift to help us, kind of deal with, the things that are stressful and help us forget the things that really aren't our burdens to carry. And part of that ministry included for the last four and a half years have been working at Salt and Light Coalition in Chicago, working with survivors of sex trafficking, using improv as a way to kind of break down the walls that they've had to put up to just to survive because mm-hmm. Frankly, they've [00:06:00] been through hell on earth. And to survive you've gotta develop some calluses and around their heart, around in inside, there's just so many calluses and walls that are up and the gift of laughter kind of unlocks that and allows them to really advance in their healing. Mm-hmm. I'm such a big supporter of what you do, Dave, and, um, when you talk about. Oh, God created humor. I, I really wished in scripture there was more of like Jesus laughing or Jesus telling jokes, don't you? Yeah, I would think that the human experience would tell you that you get 13 men just camping out, walking the water in wilderness. They're gonna crack some jokes. They're gonna make some funny things like James and John teased Peter, oh, help me Lord, I'm drowning. Help me. And he would fire back, Hey, at least I got out of the boat. And the whole, the verse where, Jesus is talking about is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle. To me, that's. [00:07:00] That could be taken as a sarcastic moment, like just Jesus in front of everybody, just like making this comment, which is so ludicrous. It could easily be interpreted as being of a funny comment. Like, I mean, camel obviously can't pass through a needle. So I think that there are moments you can find in scripture that, that are funny. It wasn't his focus. Mm-hmm. But. Proverbs 17:22 says, Lightheart is like good medicine. Some translations say laughter is like good medicine. So I think mm-hmm. If it's covered at least once, then we can stick to it. 'cause the Bible is true from front to back. But yeah, it would be kind of fun to hear like open night in Jerusalem, open mike night. Yeah. That's awesome. So Bobby, why don't you tell the folks about your background and how you met the Lord maybe, and how you met Dave. Yeah, so [00:08:00] I am Bobby Ebert, Dave's wife. We've been married for eight years and. My testimony starts in my childhood is through a series of abuse growing up all the way from junior high all the way through high school. Um, it became pretty serious. The police ended up being, getting involved and just a wide variety of things that happened with. All of that and being severe trauma, the Lord revealed to me in a vision, my sinful nature. And so how that happened was I was in a counseling session at a crisis center, and it was in the middle of that crisis center session that. The Lord gave me this vision of a Santa Claus list where it has one size, all naughty and then a nice, but instead of it being naughty and nice and who's on that list, and it was all of my sins and I could read [00:09:00] them and I just remember like staring off in this what would look to other people as if a day I was in a daydream and I was just feeling mortified. About myself and the counselor had no idea what was going on. I was just looking off and the car ride home, I was just very silent. I was staying with my best friend and her family, and so they were my transportation, obviously, and I would just start repenting and just like asking Jesus to forgive me for salvation and. So one thing that I had a hard time wrapping my mind around was how does the blood of Jesus actually cleanse us? That is a dirty substance. How does that actually cleanse us? And I could not wrap my mind around that until that moment of [00:10:00] salvation and that veil was, it came right off and I just had like this instant understanding. So that was pretty amazing. And fast forward through. A few more years of going through like hope and healing and some other counseling sessions like the Lord did a really huge work in my heart and in my spirit, and even in my mind, like just completely renewed me and healed me. There is one Wednesday night I went to a church service where I was attending at that time. Happened to be at the back of the subdivision where I grew up and my dad still lived. In our childhood home at that time and on the way to church that Wednesday night, the Lord convicted me and told me three times, forgive your father. Mm-hmm. And I said, no, I am not. And after that third time I said, fine Lord. I will forgive him [00:11:00] if I drive by his house. I see the lights are on and he is up and awake. So after service, I drove by and I pulled in front of the house, and of course all the lights are on, doors are open, windows are open. He is watching tv. So I'm like, Ugh. So I arrived unannounced. And he let me in and we chatted and I had no idea why I was there. And finally I get up to excuse myself so I can travel home. It was a 45 minute ride to where I was living 'cause I had since moved in with another family member. And as I'm walking out the door. I literally have my body half in and half out of the door. And I turned and I said, I forgive you. And I was walking out that door and he says, hold on a minute. You get back in here there bubble. [00:12:00] And he says, what is this a 12 step program you're going through? So I came back and I sat back down and I just told him I could give you everything that has ever happened in my childhood, everything that you've ever done, and all the, I went on and he is like it created this special moment where he opened up and started talking about his childhood and the trauma and different things that he experienced, and he was still very unrepentant. Still is to this day, still denies everything that has. Ever taken place mostly 'cause he is protecting himself and from being vulnerable and having to actually repent. But it created this beautiful moment that had I disobeyed God, my dad to this day would [00:13:00] not be open. To hearing about Jesus. He doesn't always wanna hear it from me, but he'll ask me questions. He'll ask me questions, and he'll ask Dave questions and Dave has his. Unique way of being able to create this bond with my dad, where my dad's more open to speak with him versus me. And that's okay. Yeah. Uh, because he's still gonna get the gospel. Totally. So I'm glad that he's open and he's been. Open for 15 years now, and now he is just starting to do a Bible study with a friend. So God will use anybody and it doesn't have to be me. I planted, I watered seeds, but God gives an increase and he'll use anybody and I just pray, Lord. I don't care who it is, I just pray for his salvation. Mm-hmm. And he's, really into the chosen. And the chosen brings the word to life in a way that ma most people [00:14:00] haven't even thought of before. And so the chosen has been really powerful and getting him closer and closer to taking that final step and like, yes, Lord, I'm yours. So it's been really exciting to see over the last eight years to see, her dad really grow in that way. And, get closer and closer. He's in a crockpot right now. Yes. And a few more hours he'll be ready. Wow. I've talked about the chosen on the show before and some of the guests, and I don't necessarily like some of the liberties they take with some of it, who am I? If the show is getting people to get in the Bible? Mm-hmm. To come to church or to start asking questions. Or renew their relationship with Jesus. So I just let God do what God does, right? Yes. And I think that's a healthy place to be, is that you don't have to think that they're getting everything perfect or doing it right. I, and you know, there are times that we've looked at each [00:15:00] other like, maybe they could have done it differently, but like you said, it is getting people excited about the word and prayerfully people are not forming their entire doctrine and faith based on a TV show, but at least getting their appetite wet for more of the living word. Yes. Awesome. I really just love your story, Bobby, and that you are obedient to what God had called you to do, even though it maybe you were a little afraid to approach your father, but it looks like God's blessing you in that way, and even the healing from the trauma that you've gone through, that's a journey too. Now, how did you meet Dave? I was previously engaged and after that engagement broke off, I was like, Lord, like it's just you and me. And some of that was just a couple years of healing and being able to move on from that previous engagement. [00:16:00] 'cause it was a long-term relationship. We were together for over five years, so. I've been told by a counselor in the past that when you have something happen, you count how many years you've experienced that, divide it in half, and that's about how long it takes to like be able to move on from that, to heal from that. And it was probably about that halfway mark that I really felt like I was ready to move on and I. The Lord was blessing me to move on and to be open to dating again. And there's a few people who presented themselves, and Christians and non-Christians and the non-Christians. I was like, well, you're gonna be wasting your time and you're gonna be wasting my time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But. Even the Christians who presented themselves, they weren't, they still weren't the right ones that God wanted for me.[00:17:00] And I am grateful because the Lord really showed me to be more discerning. So fast forward, I one day was like, I've always been against. Online dating, meeting people through dating websites and stuff. But I was like done. I was tired of being single and crying my eyes out in my pillow every night and I said, Lord, I don't care I doing this. So I signed up for Christian Mingle that night, and the next day I met a friend of Dave's and we got together and. We kinda. Tested things out for a couple of months and it wasn't a right fit to. But during that time I met Dave. He was actually dating somebody else that he had met, ChristianMingle. And actually I met her on Plenty of Fish. [00:18:00] Oh, sorry. Free site. Well, you were on Christian Mingle though, so the free version. I paid. Alright anyway, so we would all hang out as a group of friends and his relationship ended. My relationship ended with his friend and. Fast forward about three, four months. It's December, and the guy I was dating, he was having a Mark Schultz concert at his church and he needed help and I was like, you need some help. So I'm like, I volunteered to help as concert because he really. Volunteers. And so it was when we were there that Dave in showed interest in me and inquired like, so what is going on between the two of you? And he gave his blessing for Dave to make his move. And whoa, Dave and I [00:19:00] was, he friended me on Facebook along with some other people I met at the church that night. So I was like, okay, whatever. It's just people that I've met. Friending me on Facebook. But then we would start chatting on Messenger for hours on end, and he would try flirting with me. And I was like, Dave, stop. You're like, you're flirting with me. Stop. And I would use his cheesy line, be like, Hey, I can't help it. I'm a Libra, I'm a hopeless romantic. What would you say, Dave? Give us one of your best lines here. I would just say she had a nice smile, just simple, flirty stuff, trying to make her laugh through Facebook Messenger. Yeah. I don't really even remember any of my deadlines. I honestly don't remember either. But fast forward, come March, he asks me to go to a concert. Oh, he is asking me out on a date, and I wasn't for that. And so I assume like a bunch of your guy friends are going and he is like, well, actually mm-hmm. [00:20:00] It's just one friend of mine, my sister, and I'm asking you, and I was like, crap. So I agreed to go and it was so awkward. How do I connect with these people? His sister ended up not going, so it was just me and his friend that he had started to improv the group with. And finally after the concert, his friend started talking about. Moody Radio, moody Church here in Chicago. Okay, here's a point of connection. Here's something to strike up a conversation. And so we started to converse about that and Dave was freaking out thinking, oh no, they're connecting, but we really weren't connecting like that. So he walks me to the train after I protested. 'cause the train was literally right across the street. I could walk myself and. It is Chicago is late at night. At night, [00:21:00] and you're not letting her walk by herself to the train. Mm-hmm. No. I've been to Chicago, but I'm not afraid of the city. So I've had plenty of experiences on my own and as a young kid in the city in some rough neighborhoods. So I am pretty confident. But anyway, I let him walk me to the train, and I have this anxiety about making sure I'm on the trains right away. And so I'm not missing my trains. So I get on this train and he's literally like, what? No hug. All right. So for context, I walked her all the way to the platform of the train. We're talking, and as soon as the doors opened, like literally as soon as they came apart, she was gone. No. So the lamest of lame ploys, I'm like. What, no hug. So she came back out, gave me the side bro hug, and then came back to the train. And here I am leaving this date thinking like, [00:22:00] man, I am in the friend zone. And then know what the friend zone is. So the next day we are talking on the phone and we're talking about this. Concert and what happened, and so to give some back info, the movie Courageous, if everyone has seen that at the end, they're doing the Father's Day speech and they're listing off all the I will declarations that they will do as fathers and men of the home and husbands. When that movie came out and I saw it, I was like, okay, Lord, whoever I marry really has to follow all of those declarations. And so we're on the phone discussing this date and at the, towards the end of the conversation, he starts saying all of these declarations. And he had never seen the movie. And so it was like literally God [00:23:00] was slapping me upside the head and I literally was on my couch like. Oh my. This is my husband. Well, okay Lord. So then it went from there. We dated for seven months, got engaged and got married seven months after our engagement. And now here we are eight years later. I propose at the end of church service. Yes, I had coordinated with, our pastor and I asked him to say, set it up as like a testimony stay. 'Cause it was two weeks before Thanksgiving, set it up as like, do you have any Thanksgiving testimonies? So a couple people shared and then when I realized that nobody was gonna go after, go next, I, that's when I started my testimony and then stood up to the platform and proposed and I was like, wow. Yeah, so, but it's funny though, because he stood up in his seat, well, not on his seat, from his seat, [00:24:00] and started to talk to the congregation, introducing himself and stuff. Okay. But then when he moved up to the front of the church, oh my gosh, Dave, this is not one of your comedy shows. You don't have to stand in front of everybody. You had no clue, huh? Yeah. And so one of the men in the church, he kind of thought it was funny too, and he is like, well, what is this? Like some kind of proposal happening. And as soon as he said that, I started backing up. 'cause I'm on the platform as part of the worship team. I interpreted. The worship in ASL. So I literally was backing up to the wall as far as I could go, and he starts his proposal and you hear the gasps and stuff, and I'm like, oh my goodness, because I'm not. Usually comfortable being center of attention and all [00:25:00] eyes were on me and I was no pressure freaking out. Were you happy that he proposed? Yes. And he will tell everybody that when he. I asked, will you marry me? That I never said yes, but I did several times with my head buried into his shoulder and in his ears. But what is true, I did not give her the ring. She snatched it out of the box. I did. But this is what is really cool. And so God ordained is the ring that he proposed with is his mom's ring. But it also happens to be the same exact ring that I used to look at in the old Sears and service merchandise catalogs when I was a kid. When I was a kid. Mm-hmm. So it was a sign that, yes, this really is of God and this, it really is your [00:26:00] husband. I've never heard that before. That is, yeah. That is something else. Yes. Wow. Years later, and I don't remember. You don't have any children, right? Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. Okay. We're working on it. Not right now though. Yeah. That'll drive up the ratings, the tmmi ratings, because it's been a few years. I didn't wanna assume, but sorry. No, we just go with it here. Yeah. And yeah, I can't make this stuff up. Right, right. Now you were doing the comedy, the improv, like part-time, right? And you were pastoring, weren't you, Dave? We were co children's pastors and have been together basically since we got married. And so that was, that's part-time unpaid volunteer here. [00:27:00] 'cause we've been at small churches. Mm-hmm. And building up rewards in heaven. Yes. Yeah. The economy was part-time and we get paid every once in a while, but it was never an income generator. So I've had a few different jobs that paid the bills, but what's different now is in October of 22, I got laid off and the Lord showed us through several circumstances that it was time to get into full-time ministry. And so this September we went through missions training and we are now a US missionary candidate. And we'll be doing what I've been doing in salt and light full time, which is working with survivors of trauma, using comedy and improv to unlock their creativity and their communication skills and remind them that it's okay to laugh, it's okay to, mm-hmm. Let your guard down and find joy in life. Yeah. So we've been working with specifically trafficking survivors, and the need is [00:28:00] they need to know that. There's hope for them and there is a future for them, and that their hope is in Jesus and that their future is in Jesus as well. So through the comedy, what we do is like the improv workshops with them, and through that we're able to break down the walls in their hearts and turn stone hearts into hearts of clay, and we're able to share the love of Jesus with them. And what's really awesome and was the unwritten benefit and the unwritten aspect is that I, I am a man coming in with these women who survived being abused and just put through literal hell on earth by men. So they're getting a chance to see that, number one, there are. Healthy men that you can trust. Mm-hmm. And also because we're married, Bobby's been able to come to a few of the workshops now, and they're [00:29:00] able to see that there is a possibility of a healthy marriage. And we get to model those things while we're also having fun and seeing God really break down a lot of walls. You lost your job in 2020. I lost my job in 2022 also. It's just amazing how God moves us in a different direction and it's definitely changed my life. And you might remember from our first conversation, Dave, that I was a missionary for 13 years Baptist ary as a church planter. Now that process of becoming a church planter, it's probably different than the process that you're going through to become missionaries, or you just went through candidate school and what does that look like? So it started in January with the application very in depth, had to find 10 references, which to me was like they're serious because especially for guys, we don't have that many close people. We're [00:30:00] just like, we have, Jesus had like really three close people. Mm-hmm. Then he had the 12 disciples, but he had three. And it's like, how am I supposed to have three times as many friends as Jesus, but we got the re re it calling people. Right? And this is Dave, um, Dave Ebert? Yeah. Yeah. The comedian. Oh no. Yeah, that, that's me. And so it was kind like trying to find a groomsman for the wedding. Calling up people from third grade, Hey, uh, what are you doing this weekend? What's your dad doing this? I heard from him for 10 years. Right. And usually when you hear somebody out of the blue after 10 years and they talk really friendly, usually they're trying to get you in some MLM. Right, right. Hey, hey, you wanna buy my tell you about what I'm doing? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. doTERRA unto others as you would have doTERRA unto you. But, so there's application [00:31:00] process and there were interviews with the head of missions, then interviews with the people who would be over my specific department. Several testing a lot of forms that fill out Yeah. Psych tests. Psych tests, psych tests, and then, yeah. Yeah. Make sure that. We can at least lie well enough to, no, I'm kidding. No, to make sure that we're ready because Yeah. When you walk out into full-time ministry, especially with missions where you're responsible for your own fundraising and support raising. It takes a toll and you have to be healthy. You have to be in a good position also. You have to be in a place where you're not like escaping the world to say, oh, I'm just gonna be a missionary and get away from stuff. Mm-hmm. So they do a very good job of vetting and making sure that you're healthy and ready. Yes. And then the candidate school, the orientation was six, 10 hour days of. Learning about fundraising, about how to, honor the [00:32:00] gifts that people give, and also the different rules and regulations that we have to follow because we are accountable to our home church, to our home district as well as to the national assemblies. So a lot of training, a lot of prep, a lot of numbers. And now we're hitting the road calling every pastor we know. The churches that we visited for fundraising with the comedy team, we're connecting with them and just asking them for support. Because what we're gonna do is we're serving organizations that don't have a budget to hire an improv coach. So we wanna go and serve them free of charge and just rely on the body of Christ to make sure that our cats don't go homeless. The goal is to also eventually open our own facility. Wow. So like a home, like a residential home? Yeah, like a residential facility for survivors, men, women and children. And to offer [00:33:00] them a comprehensive therapy as well as job training skills and things to get them on their feet so that once they're on the, in this place where they're ready to start over. If they're ready to start over and start building a life, instead of many trafficking victims when they come out of trafficking, unless they have an organization that walks in hand in hand, they either fall back into drugs, they fall back into that lifestyle again. Or worse, they fall into depression and impossible suicide because. They end up escaping, but they have a record. Yeah, because they're, they've probably been picked up by the police several times. They've also probably got a drug record because either the people that they were quote unquote working for or by their own desire to survive, they. End up on drugs, just trying to cope. Mm-hmm. In many cases, and courts really don't care why you're being arrested for being intoxicated or on drugs. [00:34:00] They just know that you are. And so that makes their lives really hard once they escape, because who's gonna help them? They've got a rap sheet, they've probably got no place decent to stay. Mm-hmm. They might have kids that are now in the system, so they have a lot stacked against them when they get out. We want to be another or be an organization that gives them all the tools they need to not only escape and survive, but to actually start to thrive. Mm-hmm. They can leave their past behind and it will be just a beautiful testimony to share of God's goodness that no matter what you're going through, God can redeem it and heal it. And, we wanna do our own facility here in Illinois and we also wanna reproduce what we're doing because. We believe it's valuable and it's unique, and it helps kind of fill in some of the gaps that traditional therapy might leave. Mm-hmm. Because a lot of the times these survivors have felt betrayed or felt like they can't trust people, [00:35:00] and so traditional therapy doesn't always work. It doesn't always help them free themselves from their past. Yeah. So when comedy is entered into the picture. We can kind of till that soil a little bit so that now therapy is a little bit easier because now the, some of the calluses and the walls are torn down. Yeah. So then you open doors for other types of healing methods once you get through that big block wall. Right. It's been amazing 'cause we've seen women open up publicly for the first time and share their stories where. Traditional therapies may not have worked in that way, if that makes sense. They find more freedom when they start to laugh. When you laugh in a room with other people, there's like this bond that happens where you feel safe because now you have all admitted something about yourselves. If you go to a comedy show and you hear a group of 500 strangers laughing, they're not strangers when they leave that comedy show because in the midst of that, [00:36:00] they laughed and admit they have something in common. And when you admit that you have something in common with 500 other people, now you don't feel alone. Now you feel a little bit of safety and we've seen these women, , find that they are, feel safe enough to share their story for the first time in any kind of a public setting. And as once you shed light on your pain and shed light on what you're struggling with, it doesn't seem quite as big and as daunting and shedding light on it allows you to give it to God and let him finish the healing. Like you say, the laughter is so powerful because it makes you feel good, and then the laughter makes you feel better because all those endorphins and the serotonin levels are. Where they're supposed to be. And you look on the world in a different perspective. It's crazy. Like I, 10 minutes ago I was depressed and now I think I'm gonna make it. And here's something I like to talk about is. When you laugh, when you have like a deep [00:37:00] laugh and you're like truly just enjoying the moment, you naturally lift your head up and automatically your eyes are lifting up. Mm-hmm. It's almost like it's a form of worship when you have a good laugh. Wow. Because you're looking up to where your help comes from. Wow. And. It's just a beautiful sign because when you're laughing you just, you're letting this energy go, whether it's stress or it's just, you're even fatigue. When you let it go, suddenly your shoulders lift up. Suddenly your blood pressure drops and you're reminded that there's more than what's here right in front of you. You lift your eyes up and you realize there's so much more, and that's just a beautiful thing to see. Let's also think about it. God is our father, and what good father doesn't take joy in laughing with his kids. And when you see a healthy father and child relationship, they have moments of giggles and cackles and tickle fights. So [00:38:00] what Good father him doesn't take joy in laughing and enjoying the presence of his kids. So I think that when we laugh. In those moments of where it's pure and it's just joy. He laughs with us. And I think that those, like I said, are moments of worship in a way because we're reminded of his goodness. Yes. God give us a gift. I think that. People outside the Christian community, they, they view us as fuddy daddies and stuffed shirts and that we don't ever have any fun. And we're serious all the time and we're about reading our Bibles and praying all the time and that we don't have any fun. But I like your perspective. Of showing the world that it is a gift from God. And we do have fun. And like I said earlier, talking about Jesus and the 12 disciples, you get a group of guys together that they're gonna goof off, they're gonna laugh. And the adoration that the disciples have for Jesus less Judas is [00:39:00] scar, the adoration. That does not happen when it's just a militant leader saying, thou shalt, there has to be moments of levity, moments of bonding, and pure joy. That's more than just. A rabbi teaching his students the love that they had, the love that they felt for him to be willing to die for him for his name. That doesn't happen in a military setting that happens in relationship where there's moments of levity and laughter, and I can't wait to eventually be and be in heaven and hear Jesus tell some jokes. That'd be amazing. Like why did you really call them Sons of Thunder? Right. Probably farting around the campfire. Ah, yes, exactly. Jesus. Pull my finger. Some people have like checked out at this point. Oh [00:40:00] man. Love it. I'm so glad you're gonna create a center as a goal in the future after the show, I definitely wanna give you some folks to connect with that. I know I've got a lot of connections, but we have the Dream Center here in Phoenix. Okay. And I've gone to a few of their fundraisers and they're an incredible place. They have this center for trafficked women and. And men, and we're very close to Mexico, so we get a lot of trafficked people here in Phoenix. And there'd be somebody to connect with for sure. 'cause they could show you how to create the facility and what not to do, and what to do and what they've learned. They create like apartments for these girls. They're like designer rooms. They're not just like bunks and dorms and stuff. I've seen these rooms. They're incredible. They treat the girls like they're princesses. It's really. Wonderful. And they do teach the skills of how not to go back on the streets and finding your worth in Jesus and your [00:41:00] value. You're not just a piece of meat to be used, you are a daughter of the king. And so yeah, I'll definitely give you their contact information. Do you know Mark Sowersby? Oh yeah. Mark. He's, he's been, uh, on my podcast before. He's a survivor. Yeah. Big time. So. I know that we talked about a lot of different things. Was there anything that we didn't cover today that you wanted to share with the audience? Yeah. So if the Lord is leading you and you feel like, feel like the Lord's saying, support this ministry and uh, give us the opportunity and the tools to go out and reach more survivors of trafficking. 'cause we're working in Chicago right now. And there, there's a plenty of harvest there, but there's also other places that we want to serve as well. Yes. You can go to, partners.gifts fork glory.com and that'll take you right to the, ag website where our, page is. And you can log in and, or you can sign in as a donor. And if you can do one time gift, [00:42:00] if you can do a monthly gift, or if you wanna do the faith promise, which is just your promise between you and the Lord of what you're. Willing to commit to support us. Anything is gonna help us get there. The website is partners.gifts for glory.com and whatever the Lord puts on your heart is gonna be, well appreciated and is gonna be used to serve many survivors. And you know, part of what we're doing is also doing podcasts. 'cause we wanna raise awareness that this is an issue. Mm-hmm. And we are hoping that between working with survivors. Doing advocacy by going, on podcasts or media that eventually we'll work ourselves out of a job and that there will be no more trafficking, there'll be no more slavery. That would be the biggest blessing of all is if we could work hard enough and the Lord would move enough that we would see an end to it. Mm, amen. Yeah. Even if you don't have the money right now to support. Dave and Bobby, you can definitely share this episode. Tell your friends [00:43:00] about the ministry. I definitely have that in the show notes, and we're gonna share the podcast episode like crazy and anything else you wanted to share. If you're listening or watching, be sure to subscribe to the wounds of the Faithful. Check every episode out and I'll go back and see how much I've changed in the last two years since the first time I was on. Yeah, I'm gonna put the episode of Dave's testimony, his story in the show notes, so you guys can just click on that and listen to that. This was great. Had a lot of fun and laughter and learn some things, and you guys are always welcome to come back on the show and give us an update. Absolutely. To see how you're doing and when you open your center up in the future someday. Then I'm gonna come and cut the ribbon. Absolutely. I've been in Chicago a few times. It's a nice city, so God bless you guys, and we wish you the very best. Thank you so much for having [00:44:00] us. Yes, Diana, thank you so much for having us. We love you and we love the show. Love you guys too. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend you could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org. Where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.    

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Healing Through Laughter: Dave Ebert on Comedy, Faith, and Overcoming Trauma In this episode, Diana rebroadcasts the interview of the late Dave Ebert, who passed away unexpectedly July 2, 2024. He discusses his journey from struggling with depression and contemplating suicide to becoming a renowned improv coach, pastor, and comedian. Dave, who founded Gifts for Glory Ministries, shares his early love for entertaining, the personal struggles he faced, and how faith and comedy became his tools for healing and helping others. He also explores his work with the Salt and Light Coalition, helping survivors of sex trafficking through improv, which aids in their communication skills and self-esteem. The episode delves into the importance of connection, trust, and the transformative power of laughter in overcoming trauma and finding hope. We hope you enjoy hearing Dave's legacy and timeless advice.  You will hear the second interview of Dave and his wife's missionary work next episode. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:47 Meet Your Host, Diana 01:34 Introducing Dave Ebert 02:51 Dave's Childhood and Early Love for Comedy 03:45 Struggles with Family and Faith 07:30 Turning Point: Finding Faith and Purpose 10:57 Battling Depression and Suicidal Thoughts 21:04 The Power of Presence and Support 24:25 A New Beginning in Chicago 26:32 Starting a Faith-Based Improv Team 27:32 Creating Clean Comedy for All Ages 29:10 Using Comedy as a Ministry Tool 31:50 Connecting with Salt and Light Coalition 33:12 Teaching Improv to Trafficking Survivors 36:20 Stories of Transformation Through Improv 44:18 Current Projects and Online Improv Shows 47:16 Offering Support and Contact Information 50:47 Final Thoughts and Podcast Information   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/   Dave Ebert  [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello everyone. Thanks for joining us today. You know, I've been telling you there are many paths and tools for healing and comedy is one of them. I think you'll enjoy our podcast today, friends. Our guest, Dave Ebert is the founder of Gifts for Glory Ministries. Dave is an improv coach, speaker, pastor, actor, and improv performer with his wife Bobby, residing in Chicago, Illinois. Gifts for Glory is ready to provide high quality, clean family friendly entertainment and professional [00:02:00] improv coaching to survivors of sex trafficking. Hey, welcome to the show Dave. Hey, thanks so much for having me. I'm, uh, really looking forward to having our conversation. Your bio is so impressive. I had trouble. Uh, shortening it for the intro. I'm sorry, I, I try to provide enough information, but, uh, I, I could have probably shortened it, but maybe it's because I'm a pastor. I just like to embellish and go on for a long, long period of time. So we're gonna fill in the blanks here and throughout our time together, and I can't wait to hear some good jokes. We will. We'll see what comes up. I'm an improviser, so nothing's ever planned. So if there's a moment of funny, yeah, I just give God the credit and if there's not, it's just, I don't know. We'll see. So tell us about your childhood. Were you always funny or into comedy? I really [00:03:00] was, uh, one of the earliest pictures of me other than, you know, baby pictures, uh, was a old Polaroid of, uh, me flexing, like I was in a bodybuilding contest because we we're at the city pool. There was an actual, like a swimsuit or bodybuilding competition going on on the other side. And my parents and their friends were just there at the pool and I was like, no, they're not gonna get the attention. I'm gonna get the attention. So there's this picture of me flexing my little chubby 2-year-old arms and it was like, I, I love to entertain and I love the attention and trying to, uh, get people an opportunity to laugh. So yeah, pretty much my entire life, um. Uh, I, I just liked it. I enjoyed, and I lived off of people's laughter. Now, did you experience any trauma in your life? There were, um, there wasn't any like one singular event, like a, a massive. You know, tragedy. But my dad was in Vietnam. He was in the [00:04:00] Vietnam War, and he got in contact with that chemical agent Orange that, uh, I've heard about. And, uh, that just ravaged his body. You know, when he hit 30, he was, you know, a healthy, strong 30-year-old guy working in the trades, and he was disabled by the time he was. 37, 38, um, from heart attacks, from just loss of, uh, dexterity in his hands and uh, and losing his ability to even walk. And it was all, uh, just complications and, and complications from the agent Orange. And so we were living in Chicago at that. You know, when I was first born and then when he'd had his third heart attack, we had to move out of the city and get away from the fast pace of Chicago and went down to Virginia where it's a lot slower lifestyle, a little bit easier for him to handle that kind of stress. But over the next 20 or so years as his health failed, there were a lot of conflicts in the home [00:05:00] between he and mom, between he and myself, and, um, so it was. It wasn't a tragic event, it was just this long period of watching my dad lose his ability to do the things that men do, like work with their hands, play with their son, hang out with their son, things like that. And, uh, you're not able to handle that because we really didn't have a strong faith. Base. So there was nothing kind of anchoring us in that storm. Mm-hmm. And so it was over, you know, two decades that, you know, there's just a lot of little traumas. Little fights, uh, big fights and, and things like that. We said we were Christian and we went to church. Um. Uh, fairly regularly, uh, mostly for holidays and potlucks. Uh, but um, we, uh, we said we were Christian, but it kind of [00:06:00] only existed from 11 to 12 on, on Sundays. Uh, we lived decently. We weren't out killing people. We weren't doing drugs and like that, but, um, but we weren't really like practicing. We didn't say, you know, grace at meals. We didn't pray together. We, I don't think I ever saw an either of my parents actually open a Bible. So we were kind of Christians in name only. Um, we had the, the membership card went to the meetings, but we didn't actually do a lot of practicing outside of church. So kinda like Chris and dumb. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of, kind of creases with a little bit more regular attendance because the church I grew up in, uh, or at least as a kid, they had a lot of potlucks. It, it was almost like the one way to guarantee people would come. It was like, yeah, we're gonna have a potluck to celebrate this this weekend. And I love the potlucks because there's always at least five to sometimes six, uh, different varieties of mac and cheese, and that's my favorite. Favorite. Yes. [00:07:00] Yes. Mac and cheese. Yes. Mashed potatoes. Mm-hmm. Mashed potatoes, uh, all sorts of desserts. And, uh, for your, your listeners, they won't know this, but if they see, you know, my headshot or whatnot, I, I'm not a small individual and I will put the blame firmly on that church. Where all the potlucks, oh, they fed me, but not spiritually. Oh. That's funny. So when did you meet the Lord for real? Well, my story's kind of unique or maybe it's not. Um, but for me it depends on what your personal theology is to interpret it. I. Going into my sixth grade year, uh, that, that summer before my sixth grade year, I went to a summer camp and I, uh, went, you know, we had devotions each night at a campfire. And I remember on Thursday night, the day before, the night before we're leaving. [00:08:00] Something at the devotion spoke to me and I said, on my way by myself, said That little sinners prayer of Jesus coming to my heart. I want to make you Lord. Um, and you know, I remember the prayer, I remember walking up that gravel driveway up towards the cabin. And, but like I said, it kind of hinted at there wasn't a lot of discipleship for young believers at my church. So. It was like, oh, I accepted Christ. What does that mean? What do I do with it? And so from that year. For many years after, I never really got truly discipled to understand what it meant to be a Christ follower. And through my depression and the, you know, just some of the choices I made, I kind of walked away from that. So if you believe that you can walk away from salvation, then you could say that I walked away from it. Uh, some believe once saved, always saved. So you can either choose that summer or you can look to, uh, January, 2013 when. Uh, [00:09:00] still wrestling, depression, still looking for purpose in life. I was walking to work, uh, on a Saturday morning and. There were these two kids from a local Bible college out there looking for people to witness to, uh, they had the, uh, tract, which, uh, for anybody that doesn't know tract is a small graphic novel that, uh, kind of tells the gospel story. And, um, so they were out there and there's really no reason for them to be there 'cause it wasn't a very populated area. Um, so there really wouldn't be a lot of people out there on a Saturday morning. So it was obviously a divine appointment. They gave me the track and they offered to pray for me, but I didn't, you know, I kind of blew them off. Said, yeah, I'm a Christian, I'm saved. Yeah, I'm good, but I gotta get to work. But because they were there, they passed out the track and because of a lot of stuff that was leading up to that moment, it was like, okay, God, I'm ready to submit. I'm, I'm ready. So that night I, uh, opened up my, uh, Rick Warren, purpose Driven Life. I started reading [00:10:00] my, uh, dollar General, uh, king James version Bible got all the way through Deuteronomy before. I was like, I need something simpler. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. Um, those two kids, I don't know if I'll ever see them again, at least not in this life, but they were kind of the straw that broke the camel's back to where I made the decision because I was still wrestling with depression and I was literally at this place where I was on top of, I, I described it as I was on a peak of a mountaintop where. I was still considering, you know, taking my life so I could either go left and just take my life and, and end it once and for all, or I could go right and give my life and fully submit to God. And that was kind of the moment that kind of clenched it for me to take that step towards God and really for the first time, pursue a relationship with him. So that was in, uh, January of, uh, 2013. So let's unpack the. Part where you talked about you wanted to end [00:11:00] your life. What happened there? It was a, a culmination of a lot of things. I, I had a lot of dreams and ideals of what life should look like, and this started in, uh, junior high and high school. Um, and then, uh, you know, combine that with, uh, this struggle with my relationship with my dad. Um, you know, not ever quite being good enough because he always had, sometimes these. Surreal expectations and, and when I didn't meet them, I felt like a failure and, you know, just all these different things. Um, it just added up to one night. I remember, um, I was pursuing this, this young lady to date her in high school and you know, for the first time I was like, this might be the one that I actually get her to date me. And then, um. Afternoon, after I talked to her in the morning, I saw her walking, holding hands with somebody else, and that was. [00:12:00] Kind of the straw that broke the camel's back the other way, uh, to where I entered into that depression. And, uh, it just kept getting deeper. The more my dad and I fought, the more my mom and dad fought. You know, it just got deeper and through, um, my junior year, senior year high school, all through college, after college for many years, uh, through my first marriage, you know, just. That voice was always in the back of my head, you're not worthy. Um, no one's gonna truly love you. Um, might as well end the pain now. And so I just, I really wrestled with the idea of suicide. There were times that I was ready to do it, but I cursed myself for being too weak or too afraid to commit. But looking back, it was that, as the Bible calls it, the still small voice. That was, you know, just kind of coaxing me to don't give in just yet. Don't give in just yet. So looking back, obviously God was [00:13:00] there with me the entire time. It's just I didn't realize who that voice was or why I was not able to fully take that next step. It was because God was there trying to yank and pull me back from the edge. Wow. I'm sure a lot of our listeners can relate to, um, the things that you're saying right now about wanting to end it all. Now, did you cover up your depression, your feelings? Did anybody else know about that? I covered it. Um, as I mentioned, I love to entertain people, make people laugh. So it started off very, when I was very young. It was just this pure thing of enjoying the laughter and enjoying giving that gift to people. But when I entered the Depression, it became a defense mechanism where I would keep people from seeing what I was feeling and also try to prevent them from feeling the darkness I felt. If I could do that, if I could make somebody laugh, if I could [00:14:00] entertain somebody, if I could make somebody feel better, then I was able to justify living for the next week or the next day or what have you. And so comedy or making people laugh was where I found my worth and my value. And if I went too far and I offended somebody, if I hurt somebody's feelings, uh, or if I said something that just kind of embarrassed me. It went into the spiral where it was like, see, even the one thing you count on for value you fail at. And so it would spiral me and it was like, man, I just, I need to drive my truck off this cliff, or I need to, um, do this or that other thing to myself just, and I always wanted to leave it as an ac, you know, make it look like it was an accident. Um, whenever I really contemplated, uh, suicide because I didn't want the embarrassment. I didn't want people to judge me and say things about me, and I also didn't want the judgment to follow my [00:15:00] parents or anybody else because I didn't want them to be punished for what I was going through. So I always tried to make it or plan out to look like an accident. Um, one night I in particular, I remember driving home late at night through the mountain roads. It was maybe three or four in the morning, and I just was at this breaking point and I prayed. I said, God, if you don't want me to do this, gimme a sign. Do something. And if you think about Pure Flix movies or a Hallmark movie, you know, you think in that moment, all of a sudden the sky opens and the lights shines, and the angels come down. And, but in that moment, it felt like it got darker. It almost, it felt like, like God actually got quieter. Than, than I felt he had been. And so I got mad and I got angry at God. And I, I think I probably said a few curse words at him and, and said, you know, whatever. And I got mad and I drove [00:16:00] home. But here's the, the thing about it, I drove home. I didn't drive to the left off that cliff and. I, I say that that was a moment where God knew what I needed. It's not conventional, it's not what you would expect, but it's what I needed. 'cause he knew I'd go mad or I would get mad, and he knew that he would have to take some barbs from me in that anger. But it was God laying himself down for me in that moment so that I would go home instead of, you know, take my life. And that's just another thing that I look back on and say, wow, God was there this whole time. Wow. I've never contemplated suicide myself. I've had some really dark times with my, abuse history. Mm-hmm. Now I've had depression before. Mm-hmm. But it wasn't so much that I needed to take medication. Um, it was just this cloud of darkness and like [00:17:00] sitting in a pit. Yeah. That you can't get out of and it's no amount of positive thinking is going to do it. Right. It just took a long time to crawl out of that. These brilliant people, you know, we're talking about comedy and the most brilliant comedian was Robin Williams. Sure. And he was so funny. And, yeah. When he took his own life after battling depression, um, I really mourned his death. 'cause Yeah. Yeah. It, and that's one of the things where it shows that fame, fortune, having everything at, at your fingertips, it's not a substitute for. Anything because you look at Rob Williams, you think about even, you know, they don't classify necessarily as a suicide. You look, but you look at somebody like Chris Farley, uh, John Belushi, um, the lifestyle that those two guys [00:18:00] chose and the way that they treated their bodies was kind of a long term suicide because they did not take care of their bodies. And I'm not talking about being heavy. I'm talking about the drugs, the drinking, the things like the partying. For hours upon hours on end, it was they were trying to fill something in their soul that they couldn't fill. Um, so for, and I don't say these things as judgment. Mm-hmm. I say these things as warnings. Um, heads up. If you see somebody that is trying to fill their life with partying, find the time when they're sober and talk to them. See if there's something going on. Uh, and like you look at somebody like Robin Williams. It's a very hard thing to know how to handle that because you don't know what his family life was like. Did he have somebody in his, in his corner that knew what he is wrestling with and they were just happened to be gone in an, in the instant that he was the weakest? Um, [00:19:00] for me, I think one of the, the biggest things is if you see somebody or know somebody that could potentially be similar to where Robin Williams was at. Pray and ask for God to show you how to reach them, um, and be willing to pursue it. Um, it's, no, no two depressions are the same because no two people are the same. There's no blanket there, a, b, c methodology that's going to, like, if I do these three or four things, I'm gonna pull my friend out of what they're at. Because there's different triggers, there's different experiences, there's different chemical imbalances in the mind. So don't ever feel like a failure if you try to help somebody and you can't see results. Because some people, it takes time, some people it takes the miracle of God flipping a switch and healing whatever chemical imbalance is in the mind. Um, so my advice is always just keep [00:20:00] pursuing, um, because. Eventually there's gonna be a breakthrough it because somebody that's in that mode is going to see that they're not gonna give up and that's going to fly directly in the face of so many of the inner voices or, or the self-talk of, I'm not worth it, nobody's gonna really care. Or I, I'm a burden. But when you're continually pursuing, you are speaking against all that and you're giving evidence against that case. And we all know, especially, uh, as Christians, that those voices are of the enemy. So they're all mm-hmm. Of the king of lies. Yes. And when you can step in and bring the truth and bring the light, the enemy has no footing left. So that's always my advice, is just to keep pursuing him. It's worth it. It's worth being able to pursue somebody and give them [00:21:00] a chance to hope and a chance to fight against the lies of the enemy. Um, I never know what to say to somebody that's struggling with depression. I'm always afraid that I'm gonna say the wrong thing. Right. Um, so those, those suggestions are really, valuable because. I don't wanna push them too far, but I want them to know that I care. So, yeah. And, and here's the thing, and this is something that I, whenever I talk to people, I, I try to take this burden off your shoulders. It's not your job to save them. It's not your job to rescue them. It's your job to be there and let God do the saving. It is not, it's not your job. So whatever words you say, whatever things you say, it's not gonna matter because it's not gonna be really remembered. The mistakes or, or the, the bad choice words or whatever you say that doesn't [00:22:00] work, quote unquote work, it's not gonna matter. What's gonna matter is that person that you're pursuing, that you're fighting for is gonna remember that you were there. They're gonna remember your presence, not so much your words. Now, there'll be some times where God will give you wisdom and they'll remember those words of wisdom, but for the most part, part, they're gonna remember that you were there. Just like when you go to a funeral and you talk to the people that are grieving, uh, whether it's the widow or the widower, or maybe it's, uh, the child that lost their parent, whatever the case may be. They don't remember the words that you said as you go in the line. They remember your face, they remember the, the calming touch on the shoulder, on the hands. They remember that you were there and it was, it is very much the same for somebody that's in the dark pit of, of depression. If you're there constantly showing them love, willing to let them have [00:23:00] what I call verbal diarrhea and just get whatever they're wrestling without. They're gonna remember that you were there and they're gonna remember that, and it's going be that evidence to say, Satan, shut up. Amen. You're not telling the truth. This person is here. They see me as valuable enough to fight through this. So you're lies of I'm not worthy. Nobody loves me, nobody will miss me. Those are lies straight from the pit of hell, and that's where you belong. That's right. Wow. No, that's, that's really helpful comparing it to, um, a funeral. 'cause, uh, I just lost my brother December 5th and, yeah, and some people, they don't know the right things to say and, but you're right. I remember that. They cared about me. But yes. The fact that they took time to say, I'm praying for you, or let us know if there's anything we can do to help you meant a lot. So I appreciate that [00:24:00] advice for sure. Let's switch over something a little funnier. Sure. Okay. Than a funeral. Um, so speaking of Robin Williams, he was a guest on. Whose line is it anyway, and it was my favorite episode ever. And you started a Christian version of that show. Tell me more about that. Absolutely. So when I, uh, rededicated my life to the Lord in January of 2013, I knew that performing and being on stage was my calling. God was going to. Keep me in front of people, keep me entertaining people, but he's changing and he changed the reason why, instead of trying to hide how I felt and hide myself, I was now gonna use comedy as a way to reveal who he is. And I had no real opportunities, uh, in Beckley, West Virginia. Nothing against West Virginia. Uh, [00:25:00] I have a lot of friends back there. I had a lot of great experiences, but it wasn't where God wanted me. And so I was like, so God, where do I go? Do I go to Roanoke, Virginia, which is about three hours west in, uh, west in, in west in Virginia. Excuse me. And, uh, that's where my mom lived. Do I just move in with her and start over? And it was kind of like. You could, but that's not really where you belong. So I kept, like reading Rick Warren's book, I kept reading the Bible and finally in a, in a conversation, my sister, who doesn't really have a relationship with the Lord, but he used her. She said, well, if you want to, you can move up here to Chicago in, in, uh, start over here. And I said, are you sure? 'cause she was going to college at the time and I would be moving in on staying on her couch in her studio apartment. And I was like, are you sure? She's like, yeah, if, if you need. A new, you know, new start. And so six weeks later I left, uh, [00:26:00] West Virginia, everything I could pack in my truck I brought up. And I started completely over in, um, in March of 2013. And it was shortly thereafter, I started pursuing acting opportunities and opportunities to be in front of people. A couple of mo short films I got into, I realized after accepting the part, I shouldn't have done this role. Uh, this will be something that if I ever become famous, will be one of those things that they play to, to tease you when you get like a lifetime achievement award. Oh, yeah. Um, and then through Craigslist I connected with a, a, a guy, um, named Ryan McChesney. And he and I, uh, discussed, you know, doing, uh, movies together or something like that, uh, faith-based, and we said, well, we both like improv. He had gone through the second 30. Second City, Chicago Conservatory. I had, um, done a few classes at Second City, but uh, most of my acting and performing training [00:27:00] came from eight years of, uh, pro wrestling in, uh, West Virginia and Virginia. Um, so we thought, well, what if we started a faith-based improv team? There's nothing like that in Chicago. And we thought that there was almost nothing like that in the rest of the world. So, uh, we decided to start trying to cast and we, uh, brought two more people on. And my church at that time was, uh, very, uh, gracious in allow, allowing us free reign to use a building for rehearsals or anything else we wanted to do. And so we just started, uh. Creating an improv team and for anybody that's not really familiar with improv, uh, uh, Diana, as you mentioned, uh, whose line is it anyway, is kind of the same kind of improv that we do where it's, uh, game base where they'll give us a game with a scenario and certain rules within that game to follow, and the rest we make up. We make up the characters. The dialogue is completely made up. And the idea is not to try to be funny, but just to [00:28:00] try to respond in the moment because that's where the funny's gonna come from, is that just that creative mind that we have. It's going to find things that are funny in our natural reactions. And so what we do is we just create scenarios. It's basically like. A more organized way to play, pretend. Uh, we create characters, voices, points of view. And so we, and we don't do it based on the Bible because we don't want to ever. Get careless and misrepresent the Bible or say something. Oh, okay. That's fair. Uh, we don't wanna ever come across as a Christian improv team that is, uh, disrespecting the Bible. So we just do clean comedy that's accessible for all ages, whether you're five or 105. Um, we want you to be able to come and enjoy and laugh. And, um, we kind of filter it through [00:29:00] Philippians four, eight, whatever's pure and lovely and praiseworthy. If it kind of fits along that, then, uh, then we're good. Um, and we just, um. We go out and use it as a ministry tool. Uh, either we open for a speaker and use laughter as a way to tear down some walls and, and make people comfortable enough that they can hear it. Mm-hmm. Or we just do pure comedy with the love and the joy of Christ and allow our presence and the fact that Christ is coming in with us to somehow reach them on a spiritual level to where they'll either ask us, why are you guys clean? Why don't you curse? Or Why don't you do innuendo or blue? Right. Or they track us down on social media and they're like, oh, they're Christian, and they're funny and they're creative. Maybe God is more than I thought he was. I'm not naturally funny. Um, my husband is, and that's the, the thing [00:30:00] is. You don't have to be funny to be good at improv, you just have to be willing to listen and respond naturally. 'cause most of what's funny in our improv at least, is that people recognize either weird quirks, uh, about themselves or about people that they know or they recognize weird characters that they're like, that's Samantha from work. Oh my gosh. Um, and, and it's that recognition of, of the human experience because. We are so much alike. There we're, we are all more alike than we are different. Mm-hmm. And when we share those experiences, we realize that we're not alone. That we're not this weird thing in the middle of the world that has no connection. When we get a room with people laughing together, even if none of them know each other. They connect, uh, on this really interesting level. When they laugh together, they don't feel alone in that room. And that's why comedy is so important and effective in [00:31:00] speaking and in ministry. If you can get, get them to laugh, there's a wall that comes down to where now they're able to receive, uh, some information or receive the word or receive the message. And, uh, you know, that's what we love to do is to either. Set the ground for, uh, the speaker to bring the word, or to just simply be a light in that room to where there's a question, why, why are they different? And, um, that's what we do now. Uh, we've been, uh, this team has been running since, uh, July of 2013. Um, we've had a lot of changes, a lot of turnover, but the, the mission has always been the same is to just use comedy to bring people closer to God. So you can, definitely use comedy to heal people in their pain. And you got connected with, salt and Light Coalition. So tell us more about that. Sure. Uh, Salton Lake Coalition [00:32:00] is an organization that works with, uh, women who have survived sex trafficking. Um, many of the women that they serve, uh, were sold into trafficking by their parents at a young age. So many of them either have a very short, if. Or maybe a non-existent childhood to, uh, draw from. So they're very stunted in ma many areas as far as emotions, uh, uh, especially the ability now to trust people. And so, and most of them obviously have been hurt. Used and abused by men. Mm-hmm. So the fact that me as a guy was asked to come in and serve the weight of that is not lost on me. But I also see absolutely see benefit because here is a man in a healthy relationship with his wife, who is in a healthy relationship with the Lord, who can come in and bring that. As a model for these women to show that it is possible that [00:33:00] not every single man is a creep that's going to hurt you. Right? So, and I, I value that ability to, and that opportunity to bring that example, uh, to them. And I teach improv as a way to improve their communication because, uh, many of them, like I said, had, are stunted either, um. Educationally, either they were, they had to drop outta school because they were doing what their handlers or pimp or whatever you wanna call 'em, were making them do. And so I go and help them improve communication. Uh. Find and develop their self-esteem. Because when you're learning improv and you're creating stuff together, you're starting to realize, wait, I have a voice. I have something to say, and the things that I say can be valuable, and that only helps to improve the self-esteem. So they start realizing that all the stuff that I've been through in the past is my past and all the work that I'm doing [00:34:00] now to get back on my feet and rebuild my life. I'm worth it because I have something to say. I have something to contribute. So we do that through improv and, and at the end of the day, they get an hour where they can laugh like kids either for the first time or laugh like kids again because. And, and it, I don't say these things to brag on me. Mm-hmm. God put me in this position. There was, there's been several times where the women have, or a couple of the women have come in and you could see that they are literally carrying their world on their back. The burdens are there, the brow was furrowed. The, you could see in their eyes that they're waiting for somebody to say that one word so that they can explode on them. Mm-hmm. And part of what they have to do is they have to participate even if they're not feeling it. So they, they still get in the circle, they still participate in the games, and you can see literally. The, [00:35:00] that facade, crack and fall, you literally see them crack up and within five minutes of participating, the burden is gone. The, the fierceness in their eyes, the the anger or the frustration, or the hurt. It fades away. And they get to forget that and realize that there's hope, that there's something bigger than what they're wrestling with in that moment. And that has been such a huge blessing for me to be a part of that for the last couple of years. And, um, and like I said, it's, it's such a blessing to, to be a man in that position, to kind of be an ambassador, literally an ambassador for Christ, to show that it's okay to. To trust again. And I, and I love doing that. That is incredible. You know, I've had some training in sex trafficking, with Mending the Soul We have a program called Princess Lost. [00:36:00] Princess Found. Oh, okay. And I didn't know anything about sex trafficking before that, or at least I thought I did know. Mm-hmm. I, I thought of what the rest of the world thinks about, you know, prostitutes or sex workers, but it really, that training had opened my eyes. Do you have a story of one of those tough nuts that crack open with your comedy improv class? Yeah. Um. Specific, I can't mention names, obviously. No. Yeah. But, uh, the one lady I think of in particular, she's a single mom. She was, uh, sold by her mom into trafficking, for sex because her mom needed a. She needed a, a fix. And so she gets involved and then she gets traded, bought, and sold. Um, and the thing wa the thing that a lot of people don't realize is [00:37:00] people who are in that life, who are stuck, who are, who are trapped, they're not always stuck in some shady building off in the corner of, of the city, right? They're, they're still out walking around, they're going to the store, but. They're in such a way that they don't think they can escape and they don't know who they can trust. Mm-hmm. They don't know if the person that they're gonna talk to to say, Hey, I need help, is connected to this person that they're, that they're, uh, enslaved by. So they feel like they can't trust anybody. Even though that they're out walking around, they're, they're stuck. And they're also, many times they're forced to take drugs. Yes. So people will dismiss them when they see 'em. Like, oh, she's just a junkie. There are a lot of junkies, but there's also a lot of women and, and some men that are on drugs, either because they're trying to cope with what they're being forced to do, or it's part of what they're required to do in [00:38:00] order to survive. Um, and, and the, the, the pimps know that when they're on drugs and they're high people will dismiss them and won't really give them two looks. So all that to say is this, this young lady, she's, I think she's in her mid twenties now. Mm-hmm. Uh, single mom struggling to get her kids back because in, in the eyes of the court system, she's just a junkie. She, it, it doesn't matter why she was on drugs, it doesn't matter what caused her to be arrested for these different things. All that matters to them is that she, you know, you were high, you were on drugs, you have this in your system, you're not fit to be a mom. So she's trying to rebuild her life, trying to get her kids back and one day, I don't know, I don't know the details 'cause I don't really talk to get to know them much, just because they're trying. You don't wanna protect them. 'cause the fewer people that know the stories, know where they are, where they're [00:39:00] from, the better for them so that they can avoid getting. Found by the people that are looking for them. Mm-hmm. Because when a woman, escapes sex trafficking, that's property in the minds of the people that quote unquote own them. Yes. And they don't like to lose property because they're losing profit. So. You know, I know very little about them. I know their, I know their first name. I know a little bit about their story. Some of their stories come out as, you know, part of the improv, but she's trying to get her life back together. She comes in and she's the one that I always envision when I talk about the cracking up. She came in and I swear, I I, there was a moment where I was worried, it was like, is she gonna fly off on me if I say the wrong thing? 'cause she just looked angry at the world. Mm-hmm. And, uh, fortunately, and obviously they're not gonna leave me in the room alone, so there's a couple of the Salton light [00:40:00] volunteers there just to supervise and to coach and say, Hey, you need to go ahead and get in a circle and, and participate. You know, this is part of the program. And so. She came in, arms are crossed and she's just looking down at the ground. And so I just changed my plan and I opened up with, uh, a warmup that I knew everyone enjoyed. Um, and it's a silly game. It's called Bippity bippity bop. And, and so this game, uh, somebody's in the middle of the circle, they go around the circle and it's, it's a quick response game. I'll look at you and, and if I say Bippity bty bop, you just have to say the word bop before I get to bop. And then there's other layers to that game. So I start the game and say, all right, so we're gonna warm up with bip bippity bop. So I go around the circle and there are a couple times where like, as I'm going around the circle, I look at her like, I'm gonna give her the, you know, [00:41:00] the, the, uh, interaction. But then I go past and then I come back, and then I get her the first time it's like pip bop. She, you know, obviously wasn't ready 'cause she's not. Fully into it. So she goes, all right, un crosses her arms, walks in the circle, starts doing it, and as soon as she starts participating you, that's when it starts cracking up. And she starts laughing and, and having fun. And she became, she was two people. The first five minutes, she was one person. And then once she started to laugh, she was a completely different person. And it's like. God, this is why, this is why I'm here. And again, it's not, Hey, Dave Ebert's wonderful. You know, toot the horns. It's like, God put me in this position to use my testimony, my story to, and my experiences to try to help in the healing process of, of some women that desperately need healing and desperately need to know the love of [00:42:00] Jesus. I love that story. You know, the biggest thing I learned in, in my training that I went through was a lot of these women are in this predicament. At no fault of their own, they were mm-hmm. They were groomed or they were kidnapped, or they were, you know, trafficked by somebody that they trusted. Mm-hmm. Or they should have been able to trust and that these, these ladies and some gentlemen, by the way, are people. Valuable people, loved by God. They're not trash and not somebody that we throw away or toss aside, they are, they are children of God and they need Jesus too. Yeah. And, and these are all people that, and I, I don't like think, or in my heart, I don't believe that Jesus means this. In his language, but he's talking to us in our language when he talks about the least of these. Mm-hmm. Because he loves us and [00:43:00] God loves us equally. And there is no true least in God's kingdom. But I think it's, it's Jesus dumbing down the language so that we would understand. And that's why he is like what you do to the least of these you do to me. So yeah, there are people who. Are out there who are high on their own accord, doing their own thing, that are just throwing their lives away because they think it's fun. But you don't know until you know. So don't, I would just ask, never dismiss somebody because they look like a junkie. Mm-hmm. Or they look like they've made some bad choices. 'cause maybe they have, or maybe they're stuck in a situation. And I would always encourage, if nothing else, pray for them. Mm-hmm. And maybe in that prayer time, God's like, Hey, that that's somebody that needs you. But if you're willing to just dismiss everybody 'cause they look like they're scarred from injections or they, their face is broken out from different [00:44:00] things, if you just dismiss 'em automatically, then you're blocking God from reaching you to tell you, hey, they need your help, and God's just gonna have to find somebody else. And you're gonna miss the blessed opportunity to reach somebody that needs the love of Christ. Amen. What are you up to now? You have any new projects in the works coming down the pike? When you said, what are you up to now? I was gonna say six foot two. Um, yeah. Right now, uh, because of, uh, the global thing that's going on and I'm in Illinois, so. Theaters aren't open. We're not doing much as far as the comedy. Um, you know, so everybody's kind of focusing on their family. One of the things I have been doing is connecting with other Christian improvisers and, uh, we're, uh, doing. Semi, uh, maybe once a month. Uh, comedy shows where we just get together and we've never practiced before. We've never rehearsed, but we're gonna [00:45:00] put out, uh, some shows where people can just watch online, watch us improvise and participate. Uh, those, uh, will broadcast live on my Facebook page, and I'll advertise those that you know about a week in advance once we get people able to commit to a date. Um. And the, our first one that we did, we had somebody from West Virginia, somebody from Arkansas, two people from Texas, and Oh, had one person, uh, from Ohio, I believe. So we had like a conglomerate of people from all over the, the nation coming in. Uh, we've never practiced before, but we did improv and. Improv and Christianity are so much alike because to do good improv and to be a good Christian, quote unquote good Christian, you need humility. You need to be willing to support the other person, and you need to be willing to love the other person so that they're successful. Um, so when you come into an improv stage as a Christian [00:46:00] improviser. I mean, you've got all the tools just built in. And so we go, we perform online, we're willing to support each other and it makes it really fun. Now, the way we do it, we don't have crowd, you know, reaction, but because we're together, we kind of know what's funny and we're like, okay, this is, you know, we can laugh at each other. And, uh, just really a lot of fun. It's nothing like the real improv of being on stage and no. Intimate experience, but it's a good substitute. It, it's a good gap filler until we can get past all of what's going on. Yeah. Saw your, your post on, Christian Creatives are on the same group. Yeah. And I'm gonna see if I can try and watch that. That'll be fun. This has been great. I, I so appreciate you coming on the show today and putting up with the, uh, the Zoom demons earlier, and I know you don't do this for, [00:47:00] reward or pat's on the back, but. From me to you, thank you so much for what you do for the Lord and what you do for these ladies, because you are changing people's lives and making a difference. So thank you very much. Thank you. So tell the folks how they can connect with you if they wanna know more information about your ministry. Sure. Well, I actually have three primary things that I'm involved with. GIF for Glory is the kind of the umbrella over everything. Uh, you can find us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook at gifts, the number four, glory. And uh, that's where my podcast is. That's, uh, kind of the over um. Corp corporate umbrella over, um, my personal, uh, speaking in improv coaching where you can find me at, real Dave Ebert. Um, there's actually another comedian who's also from the Midwest, uh, not a Christian, [00:48:00] uh, who's, his name is, uh, Dave or David Ebert. So, uh, so I beat him to the punch and I took the real Dave Ebert. Oh, glad you mentioned that. Um, which is hilarious. 'cause on Twitter I'll often get tagged in things that. I have nothing to do with Christianity or ministry, and it's like kind of embarrassing. Totally. And so I'll respond and I'll be like, Hey, I think you meant this guy. Um, but uh, thanks so much for the shout out. You don't want the credit for some dirty joke. Right, right. Yeah. I mean, I, I. Unfortunately, before Christ really took over my life there, I did say quite a few dirty jokes, especially in wrestling locking rooms. Um, but uh, that's washed by the blood and forgiven and mm-hmm. Um, but yeah. Uh, so at real, Dave Ebert is how you can find me. And there is one thing I do like to, uh, share on any every interview. Is, um, if there's somebody out there that hears this podcast and you're [00:49:00] somebody that's wrestling with depression or considering suicide, uh, my email box is open to you, uh, 24 hours a day. Uh, it goes directly to my phone, and this is an email address. I'll always keep active. So if in 2035 somebody picks up this podcast, that email will be available barring rapture. Um. Yeah, and I say that tongue in cheek, but, uh, if you're somebody that's wrestling, I really want to hear from you and wanna walk you through it. Uh, my email address is Dave at gifts, the number four glory.com. dave@giftsforglory.com. And, uh, I'm not gonna preach at you. I'm not gonna just copy and paste a bunch of scripture. I just want to hear what your story is and I wanna walk with you through it. I know that. In my depression. For me, I feel like had somebody had that option where I could talk to somebody that didn't know me, that didn't have preconceived ideas, that I'm, I would've been willing to just open up. And I'm [00:50:00] hoping that, uh, even one person, if you need that and you just, and I refer to it earlier, that verbal diarrhea, just like, let let it pour out. Uh, my dad was a military man. I was in wrestling for eight years. There's not a curse word I haven't heard. So if you need to curse in your email, don't feel like, oh, he's a pastor. I gotta edit. No, don't worry about that. Just tell me what you're want. A safe person, uh, yeah, and I wanna be there and I want to help in any way I can. If it's just listening and reading your email and just sending a few words back, that's what I wanna do. So that's open for you for, and if you're somebody that knows somebody that's not able to ask for help, uh, you know, contact me and I'll be happy to, uh, to do what I can. That is so awesome. Thank you so much for, for being a resource for, for the listeners, and I hope those that are listening will take advantage of that opportunity. And I love your podcast. [00:51:00] I listen to your podcast every week and you have some great guests on there. And we seem to agree on a lot of, um, things that I won't mention. I don't talk about politics on the show, but yeah. We seem to be on the same page on a lot of things. So thanks again for, for coming on the show tonight. Thank you so much. You as well. And, uh, I hope that, uh, uh, DSW Ministries takes off in the new year and that, uh, you meet every goal that, you've, that you've set forth. God bless you, Dave. Now I'll put all of his information in the show notes for everybody. You are never a victim when you choose to take action. Remember that friends, so we will see you all next week. God bless. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please [00:52:00] hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.

In this episode of the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, host Diana Winkler interviews Pastor Mark Sowersby, who shares his powerful testimony of overcoming childhood abuse and finding forgiveness and healing through faith. Mark recounts his early life filled with abuse, meeting Jesus at 16, and wrestling with his identity as a victim. Through the love of his church community and personal determination, he not only found freedom but also pursued education and ministry. He also speaks about reconnecting with his birth father and how the loss of his mother catalyzed the launch of his ministry, 'Forgiving the Nightmare'. The episode serves as an inspiring account of transformation, resilience, and the power of unconditional God's love. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:47 Welcome to the Podcast 01:25 Introducing Pastor Mark Sowersby 01:40 Technical Difficulties and Apologies 02:17 Pastor Mark's Testimony 05:49 Childhood and Abuse 07:10 Finding Faith and Forgiveness 18:06 Weight Loss Journey and Healing 23:08 Dyslexia and Education Struggles 24:42 Writing a Book and Ministry 28:14 Reading the Bible: Audio vs. Written 28:27 A Life-Changing Christmas Story 29:20 Overcoming Illiteracy with Help 30:14 A Love Story Blossoms 30:56 College Journey and Divine Guidance 32:49 Answering the Call to Ministry 33:13 Struggles with Self-Worth 35:15 Finding Confidence in God 35:56 Weight Loss and Self-Love 40:01 Victim to Victor: A Personal Transformation 45:00 Reuniting with Birth Father 48:20 Launching Forgiving the Nightmare Ministry 54:40 Final Thoughts and Prayer   website: www.forgivingthenightmare.com email: mark@forgivingthenightmare.com    Bio:  Reverend Mark Sowersby has been married to his wonderful wife Jennifer for 17 years and is the father of four children. Mark has been an ordained minister with Assembly of God for over 25 years and is currently the Pastor of Christian Assembly of Schuyler in beautiful upstate New York. Pastor Mark holds a BA in theology from Zion Bible College/Northpoint Bible College. In 2019 Pastor Mark went through a time of great healing. He began speaking about the experiences of his past and God's grace and the transformational work of forgiveness in his life. He now speaks about his story through his ministry, Forgiving The Nightmare. When he isn't serving his congregation and his community through ministry, teaching, and support, you can find him on all the trails and lakes in Upstate New York, spending time with his family.   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/ Transcript: [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana Winkler. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Welcome back. You made it well. I have a great guest for you today. I told you about him last week. Pastor Mark Sowersby and he has knocked this interview out of the park, and we had an amazing time. We did not have an amazing time with the Zoom platform. I could not hear him, but he could hear me, and it was a half an hour of back and forth trying to get it to work. So I wound up having to record this episode on our phones with the earbuds. So I don't normally do [00:02:00] that. I usually have my $300 studio microphone. So if it doesn't sound as good, I apologize. But this content is so great that I think you'll forgive me, but I'll try to do some, post-production, to make it sound better. So without further ado. Here is Pastor Mark. Yeah. Nice. Nice to meet you. Yes, nice to meet you also. And I saw your wife there too, so, and I think you saw my husband's beard anyway. Yes. And my wife is the strength and the brains of this operation around us. I'm blessed. I'm a blessed man there. Amen. Thank you. Yes. So we got the, um, the technical, uh, demons outta the way. Well, I appreciate that. We tried two computers and my Apple phone. And I have to tell you, I am a novice at computers at best, so Yeah, me too. So we're kindred spirits for sure. Amen. Amen. And I read your testimony about your [00:03:00] website and your faith and your podcast and everything. What a beautiful testimony you have. Oh, thank you so much. So you, you're in Arizona, is that correct? Yes. Wow. Wow. Well, I have to tell you of one of my bucket lists because I'm a northeast guy. I'm a New England, New York. We have snow. It's freezing. They're saying we could have a possible blizzard tomorrow. Uh, I love that. Go to the Grand Canyon. That's my, on my bucket list. My, my family. Hear me speak about that all the time. I've never seen it. But I long to, let me tell you, it's more breathtaking than you can imagine. The pictures don't do it justice. I've been there many, many times, of course. And yes, you should come as soon as you're allowed to travel. I would be over here. Yeah. There's so much more to see. We long to go. We really want to see it. You know, if somebody said, you really see the significance when you look at that great canyon and you see how [00:04:00] small you are, it humbles you and reminds you of what a great big God we serve. So, you know, we just, uh, amen. Thank you for hearing my story and my testimony, and it's an honor to be here with you and celebrate the victories that we have in Christ. Amen, brother. We're gonna get to know you a bit here for my listeners. So why don't you tell the, listeners a little bit about yourself. My name is Mark Sowerby. I'm a husband, a father, a friend. I'm a sports fan. I eat too much. I talk too much, but I'm a pastor and a servant of Jesus Christ. I was looking at all your pictures and stuff, and I saw your progression of your weight loss. That is so amazing. Thank you. Thank you. And my weight loss journey is really just a symptom. Or result of the greater healing that's taken place in my life. Uh, I'm very proud of it. It's something [00:05:00] I have to work hard for and be very disciplined in. So yes, there's a work towards it, but really it's the sub to the main plot. The main plot is what Jesus did in my heart to help me forgive and help me heal the abuses and the pains. And as that began to fill my life, this weight loss journey with the discipline and that burning good habits and exercising, and I'm up to running, uh, six miles a day on the treadmill. So, wow. Six miles. Yeah. So well, remember, we're not in Arizona heat, so it's not hot, well, I have a treadmill. That's usually what I exercise on. I have an exercise room, I don't run unless somebody's chasing me or the laxative has started working. Those are good reasons to run. so let's start at the beginning. So what was your childhood like? Well, unfortunately I have a story of brokenness, pain, and sorrow. I was born from an affair. Uh, so my [00:06:00] father never really had a relationship with him. I am assuming that as soon as he, uh, got the news, he, he left. So I was raised by my mom. I have two siblings that my mom had from a prior marriage. So the three of us kind of lived together at my grandmother's house, and that's what I knew. That was what life was. I was seven years old. A young man came into our family, and that young man eventually married my mom 20 years, her younger, and when he came into our home, he brought abuse and pain. He brought death and destruction. He brought lies and poison. And as any abuser, those abusers have touched many people. And as not only did he abuse my mom in a and. With just vulgarness and pain, but he also abused me and with sexual abuse and physical abuse and emotional abuse. And it was just a very difficult time in my life. So from seven to 14, that's kind of the world I knew. Not only did he abuse my body, not only did he steal from [00:07:00] me, my dignity, my value. Not only did he try to control me, but he also sold me for other men to abuse me. Mm-hmm. Other men to take my body. He stabbed me and beat me and burnt me. And at 16, I was invited to church, I ran into a youth group. And, uh, there's a whole story in that. But let me tell you, I ran into youth group and I ran into Jesus. Jesus was Amen loving. Amen. Jesus's loving arms. He wrapped him around me and started me on the journey, journey of forgiveness. And it's been a journey up. I just turned 50. We just lost my mom earlier this year. Wow. They say a flu. Some say COVID, but we lost her earlier this year and it was really kind of a season for me to walk through some even deeper, deeper healing. We have a lot in common. 'cause I just lost my brother this week. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry for your loss. Yeah. So we both have losses today. Yes. Yes. I'm so [00:08:00] sorry for your loss. You as well. Thank you. Your mother was a believer? She was at the end of her life. As we say, the 11th hour of Thief on the cross remember me. Mm-hmm. My mom did have one of those kind of conversions. Unfortunately, she never, the last few years of her life, she came to understand Jesus, but she never forgave herself or forgave. Her pain. She lived with the regrets and the shames and the guilt of her pains. She knew the love of Christ, and I believe that when she closed her eyes on this earth, she opened her eyes there because of what Christ did for her. But she carried this burden of shame and guilt and hurt. But I forgave her, not because I'm special, not because I'm better. I forgave her because Christ forgave me. And in that journey of learning with to forgive people say to me, how could you forgive such a great thing? I just forgave what was in front of me. That's it. Step by step, precept by precept. That's how I forgave. I [00:09:00] couldn't think about the whole journey all at it was too hard. What's in front of you? Well, we'll definitely get into, your process of forgiveness. Would it be okay to, circle back to your stepfather coming into your life? Now it sounded like it was a very violent to way he treated you. Did he do any grooming of you to start the abuse or was it violent right away? I believe there was grooming, again, being so young and, uh, being so, uh, naive. I probably didn't recognize it, but I'm sure there was grooming you know, there was this natural longing. From a child without a father to find a father figure. Mm-hmm. Um, being so young, not understanding the process of that, and any person that would gimme attention, I would run to them to try to find somebody who would govern me or lead me or [00:10:00] guide me or accept me. So I'm sure there was some manipulation in that, as I became more groomed or broken or became more pliable, if you would, because of my young immaturity. He began to have more of his way on it, just so you know. And I always refer to him as my mother's husband. Never as my stepfather? Yes. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. Oh, no, you didn't offend. No, I have forgiven him. I think in forgiveness, it's okay to have, uh, some boundaries. Sure. I think that, to have some healthy boundaries, I've forgiven him. I've put him in the hands of God, and I pray the grace of God will meet him and his pain and his sorrow, and only God can reach him. Uh, but again, there's some healthy boundaries around my life and my families. So what was your relationship with God when you were going through all this abuse? We grew up in a very religious home. I was a New England Protestant, so most of New England are [00:11:00] Irish Catholic, Italian Catholic, Polish Catholic, French Catholic. But I was the rare Protestant. And I remember saying to my grandfather one day, I asked him, I said I, well, let me back up and say, I always knew what I wasn't. I knew I wasn't a Catholic, but I didn't know what I was. So, grandpa used to tell us we weren't Catholic. He announced that pretty clearly. But one day I asked him, I said, then if we're not Catholic, what religion are we? And all he said was, go ask your mother. So, you know, we didn't really grow up in any kind of. Formal faith-based community, uh, you know, sometimes went to Christmas Eve service, you know, those kind of what we call Sea Easter and Christmas. The CE. The CE crowd. That's right. But it really wasn't, a church was not a part of my life. We knew God was there, be good and you go to heaven, be nice to people, you go to heaven. But there really wasn't a faith-based situation. I'll be honest with you, uh, the [00:12:00] only religion I got, or the only faith I got was the one album that was played in our home. It's not a Christian album, it was Jesus Christ Superstar. I'm a kid of the seventies. Yes, I'm very familiar with that. Yeah. And but God's name is so powerful now as a Bible college graduate, as a pastor, I could see all the holes of the theology in that and how it was really written, dragged down the gospel. They say Jesus Christ, and as a child, that name is so powerful. So, I mean, I didn't know anything. So here I was, I, I remember seven years old with a big headset on sitting in front of the speakers and listening to Jesus Christ Superstar. And, and now I realize what a mockery it was. But then just the name has power. Yeah, there was no resurrection in that movie. No, no, no. You know, when you have Mary Magdalene sing to, to him and say, you're just a man, [00:13:00] only a man. I mean, it's such a mockery. But again, at eight years old, 10 years old, I thank God that all truth belongs to God. Amen. And his name is so, amen, powerful. Amen. That every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. And as that name, Jesus was smoking, it pierced my darkness. Now, I didn't know about crying out. I didn't know about prayer, but God was preparing me for such a time. And at 16 the lifeguard at the apartment complex invited me to church. She was a pretty girl, and I didn't wanna say no. Uh, she invited she invited me and picked me up with her boyfriend. Oops. We went, yeah, we went to church that night and there began my journey into meeting Christ, knowing his mercy and grace into my faith walk and it's been a journey ever since. So is that when you, met the Lord for real [00:14:00] and got saved? Exactly, I was 16 years old. It was the early part of the summer and I went to that youth group and everybody told me that. To throw away my rock and roll music and to cut my hair and take my earring out. And everybody wanted to hug me and I didn't wanna be hugged by anybody. It's an evangelical Pentecostal church. And I was like, I don't, yeah. But come to find out, the youth pastor lived in the same apartment complex I did. I had a ride to church anytime it was open. So, later on that summer, mid-August, I remember a man inviting me, a young man from the youth group. It was raining. He was giving me a ride home. We got into his car and he asked me right there, uh, mark, do you wanna ask Jesus Christ to be your Lord and Savior? And we prayed right there the sinner's prayer. And I recognized the grace of God and the mercy of God and the Spirit of God. And at 16 years old, I asked Jesus Christ to be my Lord. And I thank him that he was calling me at such a time. So, and then I [00:15:00] had to grow up. Wow. And then I had to grow. I was still 16 with a messed up background and, still was spilling life all over myself. But that church loved me. They hugged me and kicked me in the can at the same time. Now were you out of your mom's house? Away from your abuser? Well. When the abuse first became, and I don't wanna say public, but when it became outside of the family when I meant the first person I confessed it to or, or shared it with, was my uncle. And I think that people have to remember my abuse happened from 19 7 7 to 1984. And the awareness and the advocacy that's out there today wasn't there then. And things like this happen behind closed doors. And I think culturally, not everybody, but culturally in most families said, we keep that stuff behind closed doors. We don't share it. We handle it as families. I told my uncle at [00:16:00] 14 years old. He was the first person I confessed to, and I ended up living with my uncle for about a year. He became my defender. So from about 14 to about 15 and a half, I lived with my uncle, and about 15 and a half I moved back with my mom. And yes, her husband was still there. But he, uh, he was very sickly at this time. So, he wasn't able to hurt me physically anymore. And I was strong enough to not allow anybody to hurt me anymore. So Now you said the word confess. Well, you didn't do anything wrong. Thank you. I, yeah, I just meant, I told. You shared your story, your abuse, uh, your victimization. So yeah. You don't have to apologize for anything. Amen. Thank you. That's right. It was probably a poor choice of words. I was just reading. I announced to my uncle, or I, I shared out, I took it out. I took it outta that simple family unit that I would tell my mom, [00:17:00] my mom having so much hurt and pain in her life, didn't know how to handle that. And just would say, well, he promises not to do it again. And he promised not to do it. And of course, so in a lot of ways I felt like my mom was a victim. And, and. Even though I've had to learn to forgive my mom because of what she allowed to happen, but in some ways, not that I justify it, but I've begun to understand it. Because she was abused by her first husband who broke her heart because, uh, just pain who had many affairs on her, and she was so broken down, so hurting and she did not understand love. I think she, um, interpreted love in a very, uh, trying to think of the word here you know, an enabling way. My mom was more of an enabler and I think she interpreted her love in enabling. So she enabled people. I mean, it sounds like [00:18:00] codependency. Was that the word you're looking for? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Thanks. So you struggled with your weight for years. Was that a symptom of your. Abuse your childhood? I, I think it was, you know, I'm, I'm not a psychologist or, a social worker. I'm a preacher, but you know, I think what I was trying to find in food was comfort, friendship. It always accepted me, uh, it comforted me when I was having a bad day and it rewarded me when I was having a good one. But like any drug, if you would, it lies to you. And it says, Hey, is everything will be okay. Just have a little bit more, have a little bit more, and, it just is. So for me, food became my drug of choice. Mm-hmm. Uh, it became where I found comfort, found peace, found acceptance. I punished myself with it. Boy, I'm no good. I'm going to eat ice cream. Oh, I'm having a great day. I'm gonna eat [00:19:00] ice cream. So, you know, it was one of those things. Uh, what I tell people is that I wish I could say to you that, that God has taken away all the hurt, all the pain, all the sorrow. It's still there in my life. It's still a familiar. Familiar pain that continues to call to me. But what God did is he became bigger. He became bigger than the pain. He became bigger than the shame. He became bigger than the hurt. So is it still there? Sure. And the flesh wants to run to it. And the psyche wants to run to it because I know it, it's comfortable. I, I know my role there. I, I understand what my protection and my manipulation that I can find there. But God became bigger. God became bigger. You know, I was telling a friend today, and I climbed a mountain after I lost about 50 pounds. I climbed a mountain. And it was about a half a mile long. And to me it was Everest. It was the biggest mountain in the world. And it took me hours [00:20:00] to go up and I had blisters on my feet and bruises on my toe. I was very proud that I climbed it. But after I lost about a hundred pounds, I climbed the biggest mountain in the state of New York called Mount Marcy. And what was the difference between those two mountains? One was bigger and I think that's the same thing. What happened to me is that even though that sometimes the enemy wants to try to bring me back to those familiar pains, those familiar insecurities, those familiar foes, God became bigger. His word, his spirit his love all became bigger. And I have to hold onto that and I have to claim, not claim it, but I have to run into it. You know, I have to run into that every day. So. Oh, you would love the mountains here. We have so many mountains to climb. So yeah. If you come to Phoenix, then we'll have to go hiking together. Yes. I wanna see that Grand Canyon. I wanna come to Phoenix. I am a New Englander, but it's cold [00:21:00] all the time here. But I hear that you guys leave for the summer and go back in the winter. We leave for the winter to warm places because it's so hot in Phoenix in the summer. Yeah. We're not snowbirds. We are here all year. Now we get to 110 every year. That's, that's normal. It gets to 120 here every summer. But this year it was 55 days of 110 degrees. Wow. Which, um, that killed all my plants and, uh, two of my trees, so Wow. Yeah, it's 70 degrees outside now, but in the summertime it's brutal. Wow. Don't come in the summer. Come in the winter. Okay. I, um, I did get to do a mission chip for Juarez, Mexico, which is obviously south of you guys and a little east, but at the same time, I got a touch of hot weather and I have done a lot of missions trips to Central America and the Caribbean, but they do have a different climate because of the sea and the water. So it's not that dry heat. [00:22:00] It's, definitely that, more moist, heat. Yeah, I think you'll do fine. Like I said, I looked forward to it. We were just in Israel in, November November, 2019, and it was 85 degrees. In Jerusalem and I roasted, I had such a hard time because the elevation was different and the humidity from the from the sea. Yeah. I don't know if you've been to Israel, I have not. Another, another bucket list, yeah yes, definitely recommend that for sure. Thank you. My wife and I, we love to travel. You know, we, we have four children, so right now our kids are in the ages of 15 to seven, so we are right in the midst of it. You know, we're, we're mom and dad, taxi and, and we homeschool. So my wife is going a hundred miles an hour all the time. Pastor wife. Homeschool mom and she's taking care of [00:23:00] me. So, I mean, this is, God bless her. If there's a hero in this story, it's my wife. Your wife's a homeschooler. Um, you had said in your story that you had dyslexia growing up. What was that like? Well, you know, I think that I still have it. Uh, God hasn't, hasn't healed me from it. So what happens is, is I tell people when the way I was raised, I survived my childhood. I wasn't raised, you know, I didn't have parents that, that looked out for me. I didn't have somebody who wanted to govern my experiences or, or was an advocate for me. So I, I really just kind of survived my childhood and one of the casualties of that. Was my education. Uh, it was the early seventies, so I think there was a lot going on with sight reading and some different kind of philosophies of teaching. So here I was in a broken home with a learning disability. I [00:24:00] was being bullied at school because the way I felt about myself and, you know, so yeah, reading has always been a chore for me. It still is a chore today. But again, the lord, he helps and he, he brings me through and he gave me a brilliant wife. Uh, she is a, a teacher by education. And my children love to read. My son will walk into walls. He reads books this thick. I mean, and I remember holding him the moment he was born, praying, Lord, give him just a heart for reading. And he does. I mean, my son 15 says, dad, can we go to the library? Love the library. Oh, he, yeah, we're friends with the librarian. Uh, if they need somebody to help him out, move books and they call him. But yes, reading has always been a chore and I, believe it or not, I'm in the midst of writing a book. Oh, I was just gonna ask that if you had a book out or not. We are just started to speak to a publisher, it's self-publishing company. Uh, so we're definitely in [00:25:00] conversations. We have written, just kind of let it pour out of me. It's been there for 50 years, so just kind of. And, uh, now we've kind of put it in front of people who really know what they're doing. I tell everybody, I wrote it my ways, I handed it to my wife and she interpreted it and made it legible. And, uh, we have some local friends who have done some basic editing, so they're kind of editing for us, and now we're sending it to the publisher who knows how to edit in a professional way. So, so, you know, the Lord told me years ago that this testimony would be written down. I remember I chuckled when he told me that because I said, Lord, I can barely read or write. And I remember saying to the Lord, Lord, if you want this written down, what am I gonna call it? He said, you'll call it Forgiving the Nightmare. So that's why the name of the ministry, the name of the book, the name of the website is called Forgiving the Nightmare. I think everybody uh, regardless of [00:26:00] how one came, you know, yours and I came in by probably hands of other people's, but sometimes nightmares come in by all different ways. Loss, regrets pains, hurts. And we all have to kind of say, Lord, how do we go through that? And I know as Christians, we want it instant, you know, we wanna stand on the word, we wanna claim it, we wanna save. Lord, give it to me. But I think sometimes we have to, uh, go through the process. I think of Jacob and how he wrestled with God, or he wrestled with the angel and they wrestled all night long. And, and God, the angel touched his hip and then he said, what do you want? And Jacob said, I want a new. And he became Israel, the promise. Mm-hmm. So he left deceiver, as you know, and he became Israel promise. And I think sometimes in that journey of forgiveness as much as Christians and people, we want it and we want it so true and so earnestly, [00:27:00] but sometimes we have to wrestle. We have to wrestle with the past. We have to wrestle with ourselves, we have to wrestle with the fears, and wrestling doesn't make us bad, doesn't make us sinners, doesn't mean God has left us. I think God's working with us, the process as a pastor, I've seen so many people who are unwilling to go through the process. And they get stuck. They get stuck in the cycle, in the the hurts and the pains of life. Just kind of build up on them. And I know God wants to set 'em free, but again, it, you have to learn to die to self crucify the old man, you know, tame the tongue. And it's hard. It's hard, especially when everything in the, especially when everything in the world tells you you're okay to have that. It's okay for you to hate. It's okay for you to be angry. It's okay for you to, when God says, for us to let him go first, let Him lead us. And God is, if we forgive those who trespass against us, he'll be faithful and just to forgive us. [00:28:00] And that scripture boy haunted me for a long time because I said, Lord, I'm not ready to begin. I'm sorry I'm preaching. No, you're awesome. I'm enjoying this. Um, I'm curious how you read your Bible. Do you use an audio bible or do you, um, do use an actual written Bible? Well, I do read Bible. I like the ESV, I like the NIV, I like those verses. I do read it. I do listen to audio at times. What happened was, is about 20, I was in my early twenties and a woman at church asked me to read the Christmas story out of Luke in front of the youth group. Now, when I say youth group, we had about a hundred youth in our youth group, maybe even 150. It was a large youth group and she was the kind of woman who would not take no for an answer. You know, the church lady? Yeah. I think every church has one of those. Yeah. And you know, I tried to give her every excuse in the [00:29:00] book, I lost my glasses. I was too embarrassed to say that I couldn't read. So I got up in front of the youth group and I read out of Luke chapter two and I. Stumbled over my words and I read slowly and I read broken up. And people were very kind to me that day. The youth pastor and the youth group, they were not cruel. And after service, that woman came back to me and said that she homeschooled her children and she would like to homeschool me if I'd want to. Now I was, I was a grownup. I was 23 and I went back to her house and there I sat with her 6-year-old, five-year old as she was teaching her 5-year-old, 6-year-old how to read. She was also teaching me phonics. I never learned phonics. I tell everybody, when I learned TION and Sean and not ion, it changed my life. Unbeknownst to me that church lady had an older daughter [00:30:00] and that older daughter watched me. Watch me struggle over my words, watch me go to the house and sit with her five-year-old sister and learn ae IOU and learn the rules of bowels and phonics. Well, years later, that older daughter would become my wife. Oh. Oh. So, yep. So, you know, she told me that she fell in love with me and she watched me there. And so that, that's a little bit of our love story. But yeah, she watched me from afar and, and now today we have four kids together and she still helps me read. So I do read. I a much stronger reader than I ever was. Uh mm-hmm. So I, I can read a much better than I could then. Well, I certainly can see looking back that you had so many people in your corner to that God sent to help you, and what a blessing. Now, did you go to college? I did. I [00:31:00] graduated from what's now called North Point Bible College. At the time, it was called Zion Bible College. It was in Barrington, Rhode Island. It was a very focused school for ministry only. Uh, so I did go there. I didn't wanna go there. I'm a New Englander. I knew about the school. It was in my backyard. I wanted to go to Southeastern to Florida. I wanted to go to pennsylvania and go to Valley Forge. Uh, those doors were not open to me. I remember saying, the Lord, I'm done. Lord, I've tried. Everybody's rejecting me because of my education. And he said, go to Zion. I went in and I met with the Dean of students. In that meeting, the dean of students said to me, mark, do you have a call? I said, yes, I believe I do have a call. He got up from his desk and he went to a big picture window, a woman who was walking in front of his picture window, and he tapped onto the window and he called this woman in. As she came [00:32:00] into his office, he introduced me to a woman named Jan Kruger. He let me know that Jan was led by God to go to school, to go to Zion the week earlier than me to start a learning center. And Jan and I became our first student in the learning center and we worked hard. The first year, most of my, classes were uncredited 'cause I had to learn how to be a student. I didn't know what a syllabi was. I didn't know how to take tests. Uh, we sat in that learning center. I cried, I complained. She was a mom. She hugged me sometimes and she told me to. To suck it up sometimes. And, uh, that was the best advice I could get. So yeah, i'm a proud graduate of Zion Bible College, and I'm ordained with the Assembly of God. So when did you get called into the ministry? Well, pretty much after, it was about my 17th year, 16 years old, I got saved and 17 years old, I was [00:33:00] at a Youth convention, and I pretty much felt like the Lord called me then. Now, I ran from that call for a long time because of my insecurities, my fears, my inabilities. See, when I walked into the room, I always felt like I was junk. Like I was dirt. Like I could offer nobody, nothing. And I was, no, you know, I, that's how I felt about myself. So who would let me be that pastor? What do I have to offer? I could barely read. Look what happened to me. So. For many years I wrestled with it and about 24, 25 years old, I had a brand new truck, little S 10 pickup truck. They called it Bernie because it was purple. I was listening to Petra, remember a Petra? I love Petra. And I was, I was listening to Petra from the seventies not the nineties. Petra and I remember I was listening to Petra and the Holy Spirit filled with the cab of that car and that truck I had to [00:34:00] pull over. I was on old post road. I'll never forget tears coming down my face. The Holy Spirit spoke to my heart and said, mark, choose this day whom you'll serve. I've called you and I will equip you. And I said, God, I want you. That's when the journey of. Colleges, and I wish I could tell you it was all roses and cherries after that. It wasn't, you know, there's still a lot of growing up and a lot of overcoming, and a lot of dying to self. And, and there still is. But yeah, that's how I got called and I went to that school and they loved me. They were honest to me. You sound like you had a lot , in coming with Moses with his speech impediment. He was, exiled to be a goat and a sheep herder. They're not gonna listen to me, Lord. You know? Did you feel like that? Oh, sure. I sure did. Like I said, I, for most of my life, I felt like what can I offer? So what I did is I put a facade on myself or I, I lived up to the role that I [00:35:00] thought people wanted from me, or a role to, to find acceptance or protection. So, if I had to be the clown, I was the clown. If I had to be the fool, I was the fool. If I had to be the weak, I was the weak because I felt those things about me. Recently in this weight loss journey and this giving, God has given me confidence. And I say that with much humility because I know it's not my confidence, it's confidence in him. But I've never had confidence before. I feel like a carpenter with a new tool. I feel like, you know, a businessman with a new suit that I've never had confidence before. Now again, it's not confidence in what I have. Because I'm still weak, but it's a confidence going, my Abba father makes a way for me. My Abba father heals me and, and goes before me. So it's, it's a kind of a new season for me to be confident and say, you know what? I can live a healthy life. People ask me why I lost the weight. [00:36:00] And I remember I was reading the scripture, and you're probably familiar with it, is when the Pharisee comes to the Lord or it says to him, Lord, how does one enter the kingdom of heaven? And the Lord says, well, what is written? He says, Lord, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength, and with all your spirit, and love your neighbor as yourself. I've read that a million times. I've preached on it. I've studied it. One day I was reading it, he said, Lord, I know you love me, mark, but you don't love your neighbor, and you don't love yourself, so you can't love your neighbor. And I realized because I didn't love myself, I wasn't taking care of myself. I love my children. I love my wife. I wanna take care of 'em. They don't need me. I wife can, but I want to. I wanna do things for, I wanna take care of 'em. I wanna help 'em be better and stronger and smarter and wiser, and love the Lord. And I realized I didn't love myself. So the weight loss journey, forgiving the nightmare, forgiving my mom, forgiving the abusers, forgiving those [00:37:00] who betrayed me as a child, helped me begin to love myself again. No visions of grander. I'm still a just a normal guy saved by grace. Uh, I still put my big foot in my mouth, my wife can come in and tell you all the stories, but, uh, but you know, I started to love myself and. It sounds like, you found your self worth in the Lord Jesus because Jesus sees you as his child. You are a child of God, and that's where your worth is. So it sounds like your healing journey brought you to that place. Yeah. It's not self-confidence like the world says it is. It's how God sees you. You're precious and you're loved. Amen. And you're valuable. He died for you. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. You're gonna get me going now. Hallelujah. Hallelujah, hallelujah. I want others to [00:38:00] experience this. You know, I, my whole ministry, I've been surrounded by hurting people and hurting churches. I've worked with people that have had major traumas in their life. Not that I ever sought it. I can't. I think the Lord just led me to it. And as I've worked with people, people say that I've been able to bring comfort. I'm easy to talk to. I thought, well, okay, Lord. And I want people to find that freedom that I have. I understand being shackled to pain in the past. I understand allowing those things to form the way you think about and believe about yourself, and never truly being set free. Waking up with that numbing feeling of brokenness all the time. All the time, just constantly. But God truly set me free. He set me free. And because he set me free, I'm nobody special. And being a pastor, I see so many people that have a [00:39:00] form of this and they don't. They haven't gone through it. So they're still living with a confession in Christ, but still the hurts of the past. Blame them. I don't, I'm not putting fingers, I'm not taking the log out on my own eye before I take the twig from their eye. But I'm saying the freedom that God has for his people. Uh, and again, do we still stumble? Yeah. Do we still need refining? Sure. Are we still the clay? And he's still the potter of court, but there's a freedom that we find as a pastor. I've just met so many people who will say, pastor, I'm killed. I'm delivered. And you realize it's, it's only an inch deep. It's, you know, as soon as they get tested, as soon as they get, get bothered, it just spills out. It pulls out of them in, in a defense or in, in a rejection or in a way they, they have a self view of the world or of themselves. Now God's consent is free. God can set [00:40:00] us free. So, what's the difference between being a victim and being victorious? Hallelujah. Well, in my humble opinion, a victim is somebody who always sees themselves broken, sees themselves in a way that, that that allows them to stay in their victimhood. For a long time, my victimhood became my identity. I remember one day when the Lord brought me to the altar and he said those words to me. He said, mark, I want you to give this up. And I literally said, in an audible voice, Lord, if I'm not a victim, then what am I? Because all I knew was the, the role of being a victim. Oh, my victimhood was good. I could manipulate with it. I could win every argument with it. Oh, when I was 16 years old, my mom, who was a single mom with not much money she bought me a car. I had a phone in my room. I had cable on my own [00:41:00] tv. She made me breakfast in bed. Why she owed that to me. Why? Because I was a victim. And I got to see how I could win every argument at school. I could put my head down and I could lift up my head and go, well, who here else was molested? I was, and no one would say anything. And the Lord rebuked me at that and said, said, yeah, that's what victims do. At least that's what I did. He said, I wanna make you victorious. And I remember him saying, me saying to the Lord, if I'm not a victim, what am I? And he said, you're victorious in me. I had to learn what it meant to be victorious. Amen. I had to learn to let that facade go. Let that personality go, let that old man die and let the new man of Christ rise up inside him. That is awesome. I just love that. I've never heard anybody describe it like that. Now, I prefer the, word survivor instead of victim. But I think you took [00:42:00] it up another notch. We are, victorious in the Lord. Well, my victimhood, you know, as much as I was a victim, but I used it for my own gain. Mm-hmm. Which made me just as not guilty of what happened to me, but made me not a healthy place. It put me in a Right. But it's all I knew, you know, I could manipulate, I could win the argument. Right. I was the guy. Who else here was stabbed and burnt and abused? I could show you my scars where they stabbed me. I could show you the burn marks. I was prostituted for other men to abuse me. Boy, you know, I could really win the, the argument. But that was wrong. Yeah, it was wrong. It was wrong to put that on my mother, it's wrong to put that on my family. It was wrong to put that on others. And the Lord had to rebuke me and, uh, wow. And he did, because he loves, he rebukes the ones he loves, so he rebuked you. I just so appreciate your raw [00:43:00] and honest, telling of your story. Because, you've heard stories where they just put the fluff or they put the stuff that's gonna, bring up the ratings or whatever. But you really, kept it real. And I think you're a great pastor because people see that you're a real person. You're not some fake up there that can't relate to your congregation's problems, do you feel that way? Oh, definitely. You know, my congregation, as you know, like we talked earlier, I wrestle with dyslexia and every once in a while I'll stumble over a word while I'm reading the Bible and in front of my congregation. And, and that really bothered me for a long time. My Lord, I'm a pastor. How can I not read this and now. When I stumble over a word, my congregation yells it up to me. So I'll be on the platform. And you know what? They'll see me stumbling and you know, they'll yell it up to me and it's just a term of endearment. [00:44:00] It's not been one of rejection or shame, and I say, you know what? I'm doing that just to make sure you're in the Bible. That's what I tell 'em. But I'll be reading the scripture and, and my dyslexia kick in, or, or the word will be all scrambled. And, and they're the kind voices. Oh, pastor, that's, that means this. And, and it's kind of a nice direction. I tell people the church I pastor is a real church with real people serving a real God. Wow. So, wow. Fancy fluff. Church don't come to us because, you know, we're real and we cry together, we do life together. We step on each other's toes. We don't always agree, but we always love God. That is so awesome. Pastor of Christian is Alia Scott. That's right. I didn't announce your church name. I wanted to ask you to tell another story about. You said that you met your birth father at one point. What happened during that reunion Union? [00:45:00] Well, I was 45 years old and I wanted to reach, I wanted to know, I tell people my birth father and I met at the right place in life. I think if I would've met him younger, I would've still been angry. Rejected Kyle, but I was 45. I was the father of four. I've made my own mistakes, my own problems. I learned to mature a little bit. To be really frank, my father's wife passed on, so he was more ready to meet me. So his wife that he had the affair on to si me, if you would, she passed. So he was more open to meet me and uh, I just didn't meet him, but the whole family met him together. We met in a restaurant, we met in Cape Cod, Massachusetts, and the family came in and the kids instantly. Started to call him grandpa. I thought, I don't know if I'm okay with that. And he never rejected it. So the last few years of [00:46:00] life, we just lost him. I, I had him for about four years. It wasn't warm and fuzzy, daddy and son, but it was something, we had a relationship. We'd talk about sports, we'd talk about life. He was a snowbird from Massachusetts to Florida and he just kind of let me know. So I'm very thankful for the four years I had. Again, it wasn't, Hey buddy, I'm proud of you kind of moment, but I got to find out a little bit about. Who my dad was and who some of my relatives are on my father's side. I got to learn about some of the health conditions of, of my father. And you know, he said he was pretty, he made it to 84. He liked to drink and he liked ladies, I like Jesus, I like one lady, Wow. That's an incredible story. I tell people it was the right time. Again, if I would've met him at 25, I would've been angry. I would've said, you know, why did you abandon me? 45 was a good time because. You know what, by that [00:47:00] time I, I stepped in enough life of my own to, to not, to be slow to judge, oh, God does have the perfect timing. I haven't spoken much about my story at all on here, but my husband and I talk about, boy, I wish that we had met, long time ago, you know, and skipped all the pain because we were both victims of abuse from our previous spouses. I'm sorry. And, um, but we thought about it and we thought we were different people. If we met at that time, I don't think I would've been interested in you and you wouldn't have been interested in me. And, I think that God brought us together this time of our life. No, we've been married 11 years. Congratulations. Thank you. So, God brought us together at our time of life because that was the perfect time and Sure. We're best friends. We never even have had a real fight. We didn't disagree, of course, but now you should write a book [00:48:00] about that. Okay. I mean, we disagree and, um, get on each other's nerves, but the Lord has just, you're normal. Just blessed us. Yeah, we're definitely normal. Um, especially during pandemic. It's like you learn about your spouse when you're stuck with them 24 7. Right? That's true. That's true. Yeah, we had to make some adjustments. Amen. And, um, we still love each other, and that it's great when you're talking about times of life, you know, for such a time as this, and I think for me, the Lord spoke to me years ago about forgiving the nightmare ministry. He actually spoke to me when I was in college about this. I didn't know it was gonna, uh, blossom or what it was gonna look like, but he spoke to me years ago about writing it down and it was always inside me. And I kept, my wife knew about it. We would always think, how's the, what's the Lord gonna do with this? Is it distant inside me to guide me through life? Is it more for others? Is it, Lord, how's it, how's it [00:49:00] gonna? Blossom if you would manifest. And we lost my mom and I have to tell you that, not immediately, but pretty quick. After losing my mom, I felt like this ministry could just launch. And it has launched. God has brought, brought a web designer into our life. He's brought some, um, producers into our life to help me tell the story. We're talking with a, an editor and a publisher. All this has happened fairly quickly. And I think, Lord, why now? And I think, to be honest with you, and this is just my opinion, I, I don't know if I have chapter and verse to back this up, but my mom was so embarrassed. She was so full of shame because of my upbringing every time for the last 20 years of my life, every time me and my mom were alone together, she would just apologize. And I don't just mean say, sorry. She would grovel and I would say, mom, I forgive you. I forgive you, [00:50:00] Marky. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And if my mom knew that I was speaking to podcasts or writing a book, she would've been so, so embarrassed. So she may, it would've just troubled her so much. So I think outta the grace of God, and again, don't have chapter and verse, but I think upon her passing released me to be able to share this story, to be able to bring others into it, to just think God was being merciful to my mom on her journey. And again, it was almost pretty instant after her, uh, her own passing that I remember being on the treadmill one morning and the Lord just kind of. Just impressing upon me by giving the nightmare. Remember those words? I spoke to you. This is where it's gonna take place. And since then, we've made a couple videos, uh, we've launched a website. I'm talking to wonderful people like yourself and just trying to get the [00:51:00] story out of forgiving the Nightmare and trying to say to people whatever that nightmare was. Was it physical and sexual abuse like mine? Was it a tragedy in your life? Is it regrets? Is it fears? Is it the loss of a child or a loved one? Whatever that pain is that your nightmare. I want you to know that God can help you forgive it and overcome it and break the shackles so we don't have to be the man or the person. The hurt tried to make us. We no longer have to be Jacob. We can become Israel. Your mom would be so proud of you. And I think that, thank you. If, the Lord's probably told her, you know, the good things that have come out of a terrible situation, she said she had, you said she had some shame. Oh. I think if she was looking down at you now that, that shame would be gone. [00:52:00] That shame is no longer there. Look how God's using my son, my, my wonderful son to spread the gospel and to help people. And so Well, thank you. I'm so thankful for you, brother. Thank you for saying those words, sister. It's very kind of you. I used to say to my mom, even up to her last days, I would say, mom, who's your favorite? And she would say, I love you all, all the same. And I'd say, mom, stop lying to my siblings. I'm the youngest of three. My older brother and my older sister never made me feel like a step or a half brother. Uh, we just kind of always lived in the same house. We got real family problems and just life, but they've never left, never met me, felt, never let me feel like I was less than even to today. So I'm very thankful. My oldest sister, who is, a second mom to me, my oldest sister, she is my second mom and I'm thankful for her. So. Wow. Well, we [00:53:00] just had just a great time tonight. When your book comes out, please contact me. I would love to have you on the show again, to promote your book because obviously you, your story is so powerful and we wanna get it out to as many people as we can. So, tell the folks how to connect with you. Well, the best way to connect with me is@forgivingthenightmare.com. Forgiving the nightmare.com. Forgiving the nightmare.com is the best way to connect with me. If you go there, you'll find a email, it's called mark@forgivingthenightmare.com. That comes directly to me, right on my phone. So that's the best way to connect with me. Also you can go to our Facebook page called, forgiving the Nightmare. For giving Nightmare Facebook page. I try to put up pictures and little devotions there and stories there. So that's the two. Best way through Facebook, after Giving the Nightmare, after giving the Nightmare do [00:54:00] com, those are the best ways to connect with me. And I hope to get so Arizona someday. You have an open invitation. Wow. I'll be a tour guide for you. I know that Arizona like the back of my hand. Wow. Wow. Now my children could hear you in the background, so they're gonna be pretty excited about that invitation. There's so much stuff for, for their Edge group as well. So, we will hook you guys up. So thanks for being patient with the tech stuff and I'm glad we pushed through and didn't let the devil get the victory tonight. We found a way to get you on here. That's right. May I pray for you as we close. Oh yes, please. Thank you. Father God, we just come to you tonight and we thank you again for your son, Jesus Christ. Lord, we thank you for the sacrifice that he gave to us upon the cross, Lord. And we pay the price we could not pray, Lord. And we thank you for the gift of life [00:55:00] and life more abundant. Lord, we thank you for the promises. It says in this life there will be many troubles, but fear not because you are with us always. And Lord, tonight I pray for my sister. Father, I thank you that you're using her Lord. To spread the gospel to share, hope to be a light and a dark place. But Father, now, I pray that you come beside her father as she's shared that she's lost her brother this week, Lord. And I pray you comfort her. Lord, you said you had to go so the comforter could come. I pray, the comfort of the Holy Spirit will come beside my sister and be with her and her family as they grieve their loved one, their family member, their friend, Lord. So Lord I pray peace upon my sister. I pray Lord that you use her, continue to bless her. I thank you for the testimony of her and her husband, 11 years that you've brought together for such a time as this. I pray, Lord God, that they grow closer to you so they can grow closer to each other. And Lord, we thank you tonight [00:56:00] that Lord, we're no longer Jacob. You've made us Israel Father, no longer do we have to be shaped by our past, but now we can hold on to the promises. Lord, no longer does, we have to be shackled by somebody else's abuse, and we can be set free by your word. So, Lord, I pray that you fill us. You lead us, and may we be the light and may we be the salt, and may we lift up your name. We pray for a unity across our nation. We pray for a healing across our land, and we pray, Lord, for a revival of your salvation to come to our our country again, in Jesus name, amen. Thank you so much, brother. God bless, sister. Thank you. Take care yourself. Bye now. Bye. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at [00:57:00] DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.

What if the difference between a forgettable line and an enduring brand came down to a handful of details and a few brave decisions? In this episode, Steven Alan unpacks how a small Soho storefront became a global showroom, why discovery will always trump trade-show buying, and how clean distribution keeps both the magic and the margin intact. From recognizing Claire V's voice in five self-sewn bags to cultivating independent designers who'd later define the modern accessories space, Steven shares how instinct, restraint, and precision build brands that last.He also gets candid about scaling too fast—expanding from eight to twenty-three stores, adding overhead, and learning the hard way that growth without discipline can crush profitability. Post-COVID, he pared everything back, rebuilt around his core menswear, and reopened with a Chelsea studio that blends craftsmanship, curation, and calm. His playbook now? Specialize deeply, collaborate selectively, and let great product—not PR—do the talking.

In this episode of the Truth From The Stand podcast, I sit down with my buddy Chad Sylvester to break down what it takes to level up. We dig into his recent trip to Idaho—a hunt that didn't exactly go as planned but came loaded with lessons that stick. We talk about when to double down on what you do best and when to push past your comfort zone to grow as a hunter. From understanding terrain-specific deer behavior to balancing specialization with adaptability, this one's all about the mental side of the game—how you think, adjust, and evolve season after season. WHAT TO EXPECT FROM PODCAST 464 Mastering your whitetail hunt requires a diverse toolkit and adaptable mindset. Specialization builds confidence but can narrow your perspective. Chad's Idaho hunt delivered hard-earned lessons and real-world insights. Micro-terrain and historical data hold the keys to consistent deer encounters. Familiarity bias can stall growth—explore new ground and learn from it. Listening to what the hunt tells you is often more valuable than any plan. SHOW NOTES AND LINKS: —Truth From The Stand Merch —Check out Tactacam Reveal cell cameras — Save 15% on Hawke Optics code TFTS15  —Save 20% on ASIO GEAR code TRUTH20 —Check out Spartan Forge to map your hunt  —Save on Lathrop And Sons non-typical insoles code TRUTH10 —Check out Faceoff E-Bikes —Waypoint TV Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this Hot Seat with Cole, we unpack how to grow your ghostwriting business without burning out—by treating outreach like a data-driven game, focusing on one offer or niche to scale faster, and remembering that long-term success comes from consistency, not constant reinvention.(00:00) Intro & Welcoming Newcomers(02:00) How Hot Seats Work & Setting the Stage(05:00) Client Metrics Deep Dive: Measuring Success(15:00) Understanding Funnel Performance and Bottleneck Analysis(22:00) Outreach Metrics & Handling Volume(32:00) Networking & Conferences: In-Person vs Digital Growth(41:00) Specializing, Selling Services, and Playing to Your Strengths(52:00) Time Management, Free Work, and Mindset for Success------✍️ Want to start writing online? Download this free Ultimate Guide to get started: https://startwritingonline.com

In this episode, Diana  is joined by guest Ken Keys, PhD, President of CRG and an expert on leadership, wellness, and life purpose. They discuss Ken's difficult upbringing, including the trauma experienced by his parents and his own battles with depression and suicidal thoughts. Ken shares his journey to discovering his purpose, the importance of emotional intelligence, and the impact of finding forgivingness and letting go of past trauma. The episode also highlights actionable steps for personal growth and emphasizes the importance of surrounding oneself with supportive and positive influences. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:47 Welcome to the Podcast 01:20 Diana's Personal Update 02:06 Practicing Gratitude 03:40 Introducing Today's Guest: Ken Keys 04:48 Ken Keys' Background and Career Journey 05:53 Ken's Family and Upbringing 08:42 Challenges and Lessons from Dairy Farming 16:20 Ken's Struggles with Depression and Wellness Journey 19:46 Traumatic Experience and Forgiveness 28:20 Family Dynamics and Emotional Growth 30:52 The Decline of Reverence for God 31:13 The Impact of Media on Society 31:54 Personal Reflections on Family and Intimacy 32:36 Journey Back to Faith 33:49 Discovering a New Christian Community 35:01 Embracing Ministry and Leadership 36:37 The Importance of Personal Style in Ministry 38:57 Overcoming Family Expectations 41:27 Judgment and Acceptance in Christian Life 46:27 The Influence of Associations 55:23 Final Thoughts and Actionable Steps www.kenkeis.com/faithful for your free gift   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/ EP 7 Guest Ken Keis Living On Purpose [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hi everybody. How are you guys doing today? I hope you are well. It is a beautiful day outside. Fall isn't even here yet it seems. But my garden. We got to harvest some of our food. We ate some green beans and snap peas and ate some strawberries from my garden. We're just waiting for the tomatoes to ripen. But it's really exciting when you start eating from your own garden, you didn't even think it was going to survive. And with the change of seasons [00:02:00] here, and Thanksgiving is coming up, holidays are coming up. I didn't really do a Thanksgiving podcast, but we want to be thankful. It's hard to be thankful this year, isn't it? Was a huge dumpster fire, and it's probably not all gonna go away you know, January 1st , I'm sure isn't gonna magically disappear, but, um, we have to practice the art of being thankful and grateful for what we have. Make a list, and I know it's hard, just the littlest things that you see during the day. Hey, I have the song on the radio I heard, and it was such a blessing to me. Or like, me, I had a harvest this week. Or, oh, the weather is so beautiful or. My kid got an A on his spelling. Just the little things, just make a [00:03:00] list and go back to those lists. And I'm not one of those positive thinker people. I'm not, I have to work at being positive. I like being around positive people because that lifts me up. My husband is naturally positive and he lifts me up. Right now. He's going through a hard time with his medical stuff and I have to lift him up when I'm having a bad day, he has to lift me up. But we try and practice gratefulness even in the little things. So I hope that encourages you during this holiday. I'm not gonna do a big holiday podcast. Today I have a guest with me today and he's going to talk about, when you feel like, your life doesn't feel like it has meeting you don't have any fulfillment, you're trying to get outta the hole you're in. Maybe you got outta a domestic violence situation and you don't know how to fulfill your [00:04:00] dreams. You don't know how to take that step and work towards your ideal life. Well, this next guest is going to help you do that, to leave the drama behind and find out, which parts of your personality you were born with, which ones you probably need to get rid of, or which ones you can develop further. How you're able to adapt to other people's behavior. Approach your interactions with confidence instead of fear. Find out what makes other people tick. How to handle misunderstandings and defensiveness. How do you handle your triggers? Hey, we've all got drama that we need to leave behind. We wanna move forward, right? So I'm going to read his bio here. Ken Keys PhD President of CRG is a global expert on leadership, wellness, behavioral assessments, and life purpose. [00:05:00] In 28 years, he has conducted over 3000 presentations and invested 10,000 hours. In consulting and coaching. Ken Keys is considered a foremost global authority on the way assessment strategies and processes. Increase and multiply success rates. He's co-created CRGs proprietary development models and has written over 4 million words of content for 40 business training programs and 400 plus articles. His latest book, the Quest for Purpose, a Self-Discovery Process to Find It and Live It. So please welcome Ken Keys. Thanks so much, Ken Keith, for coming on the show. Appreciate it. Well, well it's great to be hanging out with you. Tell us about your self, your upbringing, and your family. Did you come from a [00:06:00] successful family? Well, um, I am a third generation, uh, in Canada. So my grandparents, all four came from Hungary between the first and second World War as immigrants. And then they settled here. I'm about an hour east of Vancouver, Canada, so that's where I make my home. And so I actually grew up on a dairy farm. After uh, high school I went to agricultural college, came back to work on the farm, but pretty well a few months in dad and I were ready to beat each other into a pulp. 'cause we really didn't get along. Both of us wanted to be in charge and dad was kind of of the European mindset, just do what I say. I'll only tell you and criticize you. When you screw up. I'm never going to affirm you or. Do something positive 'cause that might go to your head. Aw. And so I, you know, after a couple of years I left the farm, I went and worked in agricultural fields as first, uh, for the Department of Agriculture. Then as a [00:07:00] feed sales rep, uh, for agriculture company. My diploma is a nutrition and genetics, so I was really a nutritionist to dairy cattle farmers. And then I actually started my own farm across the street. Which was fine, I could do my own thing. And then the late eighties, I got into this industry as a sales trainer. So I bought a franchise in the sales training. I said, what a na natural transition, uh, closed down my dairy farm. And then that was the beginning of this. Now when we're recording this, 32 years later, I said, where did that go? Uh, and, you know, three or four books, the author of 12 psychological assessments presented 3000 times somewhere around the world. Uh, authored 4 million words of content. You know, it's an interesting story and journey. And of course, I'll link in my, uh, face story here in a minute as well. So now this, it is. 32 years doing what I'm doing. And the company that I own was founded in 1979 by a professor at a Christian university. He wanted to create a, uh, create an assessment that was [00:08:00] different, better, more improved than Disc Myers-Briggs true colors, way back in 1979. And so he created the tool, the personal style indicator. I got connected to that company in 1990 and then bought it nearly 20 years ago. So we're now, you know, doing business in 12 languages, 30 countries around the world. And all our tools are built on a Christian worldview view, but we equally serve, you know, like Boeing mm-hmm. Or companies of that nature, or Ford or Chrysler as we do Ministries. And we just say, we're just here to help develop people. And then my purpose in life is to help others to live, lead, and work on purpose and to help them to realize their potential. So that's really been our focus for the last three decades. Well, you talk about the cows and I don't think I've ever milked a cow and well, it is 24 7, and I think that was one of the things that happened. I think, and here's my. Encouragement and challenge for those people that are listening, watching this show today [00:09:00] is I got up one morning with my dairy herd and I asked myself this question, if I was doing this same thing 20 years from now, would that be okay? And I said, no, no, no, no, no. I can't be doing that. And I always knew I was to be a speaker. Even when I was 16, I was speaking in front of groups, MCing groups asked to do that kinda work. Uh, I never thought I would be an author because my grade nine teacher said, well, I wouldn't amount to anything because I couldn't read or write. And it was discovered when I did my master's degree that I was dyslexic. So the invention of the computer when I went to school, I'm young, just to let you know, but when I went to school, there weren't, there weren't computers. The program word wasn't there to help me understand or see the words, uh, words that I was misspelling. And the reality is, is that, so I have mispronounced some words, so what doesn't matter, you know, get over it. And that led me to being a writer, which no way you [00:10:00] would've ever convinced me that was gonna be something that I would do almost more of than any single item in my lifetime. So here we are. And now just really trying to, you know, live his purpose and to help encourage other people to live theirs and to be anchored in that. Wow. Research shows. Diana is that when you're out there and engaging in nature, it actually feeds your soul. It does. So, even the research of kids that live in the countryside are healthier than those mm-hmm. That live in sterile environments in a condo, you know, in a 50 story building. I'm not here to judge you because you live in a condo. I'm just saying the reality is the health stats show that when you're out and about and you're just kind of in nature, your immunity strengthens, but so does your core soul because you're out there with nature and hey, that was designed that way. Absolutely. I think it's kept me sane. I liked being outside. I liked going out there and fussing over [00:11:00] my plants. Well, it's in, it's always interesting me to quote unquote live off the grid. And what I mean by that is just being a property that doesn't require utilities from third parties and things like that. But I'd live close to the town or city. There is a lot of effort and work, and one of the reasons that I did stop dairy farming was the 24 7 obligation, 365 days a year. I mean, you never have a day off in a dairy farmer's environment. Now, I appreciate the values that I learned, tenacity, persistence it doesn't matter what the weather's doing. I remember one time where it was very cold. One February. It was rare for where we live, but all the pipes and everything were frozen. Well, it took me four hours of fighting just to thaw all the pipes out so I could milk my cows. And just going back in the house and watching TV wasn't an option. It had to be done. So no matter, you know, what your personality or personal style is or anything like that, those character [00:12:00] traits were entrenched in me or developed in me in that persistence, uh, growing up. So that, you know, that's part of what I bring into it. I'm not. Mm-hmm. Uh, I was thankful for growing up in that environment, but it wasn't something that I was meant to do going forward. So you mentioned your father, but you also said that your mom, had some abuse in her childhood Hmm. Would you, be willing to elaborate on that? Sure. You know, it's interesting. I grew up in quote unquote a Christian home. Mm-hmm. But it wasn't really because my grandparents were Presbyterian in their background. No judgment. Anybody has that background. I grew up in the Presbyterian church. My brother and I were the youth, so that was, they were the only ones that were attending. But what I didn't see in my family was really the relationship with Christ. Mm. It was a cognitive thing, it was a cerebral thing. It was a duty, but it wasn't really an experience. It wasn't a relationship whatsoever. And of course, later on, I sort of [00:13:00] left the church. I can tell you my spiritual story here in a bit. But as a result of that, my dad was 16 years of age when his dad died of an unknown causes. He was on the farm, so he was forced to quit school in grade eight or nine to take over the farm with his mother. Now, his eldest brother was working off the farm, but also was helping on the farm, and a year later died of an unknown. As well. So here his father dies and then, you know, the next year before he is almost 17, his eldest brother that he looked up to died as well. Oh. And then my grandmother, where I was one of the, I wasn't the eldest male, but in that culture, you know, males just seemed to be, that was important to grandma. So I was the first born in Elst male farm. Grandma was pretty good with me, but she had a critical spirit. And so that spirit then led into my dad. My dad's way of dealing with that trauma was [00:14:00] to say nothing, just really be quiet. Mm-hmm. And the culture, the Hungarian culture also was one of non-emotional. I mean, you didn't share your feelings, you didn't share what was going on. You didn't share your heart. And even though my dad was on the board of the church, an elder. I never saw him pray. I never really see him have this relationship. He believes in God, you know, is he saved? I don't know. I mean, it's hard to know just for the viewers. I'm an ordained pastor now, so, this is kind of a full circle for me. And then my mom, grew up in as an, as a teenager with a father who was abusive when he was drinking. So an adult child of an alcoholic is kind of the process. So he, later on, , he straightened up. However, there was one night, my understanding from the story, I wasn't around yet where grandpa came home and then, was, beating on the kids and grandma got a knife and says, you touch him again, I'll kill you. Mm. And so that was kind of the environment that my mom grew up in. Now, grandpa, [00:15:00] later on when I knew him, I never knew that part of him. He was able to get his binge drinking under control. His English was broken, but we had a great relationship. He passed away sooner, and then grandma was left. Grandma was a critical spirits to my mom. So my mom now as we record, this is 86, going on 87 soon, and, I think she worries for the entire planet. I think her self-worth as far as she still has not processed this value set. So she plays the victim card extensively. And then as far as my environment for my dad, giving compliments, providing compliments just never happened. So he is 88 at the time of recording this and I'm 60. And I do not recall ever him telling me that he loves me. Aw. I just not now, does he? Yes, he does. But to verbally say that I love you just doesn't happen. I could go to his place though. And say, [00:16:00] dad, I need to borrow your truck. I need to borrow tools. Always, yes. Never says no to being helpful, but to be able to have that emotional connection and to articulate it is not something he learned. I think he did the best that he could with what he knew. So same with my mom. So I don't, I'm not bitter with them now. I'm obviously disappointed. But what it led to for me in my teenage years, when I came back from college, so I was 19 years of age, I think when I finished college, I started when I was younger is, I was suicidal. Hmm. So I sat there on the farm, here I'm arguing with my dad. I want to take it over, but he won't include me in any decisions. This is the, it's my way of the highway. There was no relationship per se, it was just a dictatorship. Mm-hmm. And then talking about deeper things that never happened, at home, when I got in some trouble with a girl, in my younger years, I wanted to share that with my mom, and she just started to criticize me. So it told me [00:17:00] never share anything with my mother that I'm dealing with as far as those pieces. So I sat there and I really said, is life really worth it? And for those of you that have been through trauma or whatever, suicide is really calling out, suicide is a hopelessness. It's a mm-hmm. Where you believe in that moment that not being here would be far less painful than being here. And first of all, it's alive, the enemy. So if we think about John 10, 10 is that the enemy comes to, kill, steal, and destroy or whatever that order is, and. And so he wants you to, take your own life because then you know what, your impact for the ministry is not gonna be there. Your impact for others is not gonna be there. Well, obviously I didn't take my life, but I thought about it and I had those components or considerations Later on in life, about a decade later, I was diagnosed asmatic depressive. And so I went on an antidepressant called Lithium, and it was my friend of mine, [00:18:00] actually out of Dallas, Texas. And she was a psychologist and she said, Ken, you're not a depressed person. There's something else biologically going on with you. And so we, I, at my insistence, did a glucose tolerance test, found out I was hypoglycemic. I wasn't depressed at all. Yeah. So what that had to do was around my blood sugar levels. So one of my passions now in life is I love to develop the whole person. And we have 12 assessments in our company from personality, but we also have an assessment on wellness and stress. And as a, I consider myself, a wellness expert. Mm-hmm. Because I don't believe that we need to rely on external people for my health. And so a lot of times people get into trouble where they don't take care of themselves. So mm-hmm. It's very difficult to be alive and functional and be a spiritual, , lion when you are fatigued, when you have no [00:19:00] energy. So, uh, I say fatigue makes cowards of us all. I wasn't the person who said I was another person who had started that. So I started to look at how can I take care of myself? Make sure you get the sleep, make sure for the most part you eat right, that you do things right. A lot of times as individuals, we don't take care of ourselves, and then we wonder why we're lethargic or we can't focus or we can't concentrate. And we do that with our kids. So I, you know, this body is a temple. We have a responsibility to take care of it. So that's why we've been working in all these different areas. And then one other. And then we're talking about trauma. And I haven't, I've only shared this very few times on podcasts and I don't, not that it's a secret. I actually share this story in my book, the Quest for Purpose. Mm-hmm. Which I am actually going to give everybody a copy of this at the end of the show. Right. Wow. So we are gonna be able to give you a free download of that book. But in the book, in 1982, I was actually [00:20:00] dating my high school sweetheart. So it was the person that I took to my prom. She was a couple years younger than me. And on December 13th, 1982 the police officer showed up at my home and said, we'd like to interview Ken. Now I happen to be out in town with my brother at that time, and there wasn't cell phones that we personally had. So when I got that, they said it's very urgent that Ken come to the station as soon as he gets home. I'm curious. I don't know what this is about. I am also nervous. I'm a little bit fearful. I'm having nervous energy and trying to crack jokes when I get to the police department. Yeah. So I get into one of these interview rooms that are just like, the TV says steel chairs, bricks, security, glass. One person in the room, TV cameras recording you. And I say, you know, what's this about? And the officer says, we have a reason to believe that you are, dating or a boyfriend of Carol Ann Repel. And I said, yeah, well that's true. And he said, well, she was murdered last [00:21:00] night. Oh. And so, what are you talking about? And I was one of the second last people to talk to her, and I had been chatting with her on the phone. She was a individual who was gifted and skilled and wanted to be the first female fighter pilot in the Canadian forces. So she was late at night at her employer's location, which was at the airport, and the janitor made a sexual advance to her that went wrong and then beat her to death. Oh, so that's, I'm being interviewed for this. They're asking about it and it came to learn. They didn't know who did it. It was a mystery for months, but they had their suspicions, but they had no proof. And eventually they, charged somebody who I knew, he had been hired as a security guard for some youth group work that we had done. At that moment, that day, I went to work. I said, I'm like, I was complete denial. Just [00:22:00] what is going on on this thing? She was 22 years of age, Diana. Mm-hmm. Maybe going on to 23. So we've all had our situations or stories. It took me years later where I did a process, called emotional freedom Technique. You can agree with it or not, but it was a Christian who created it. I was drenched in sweat, just processing all the. Emotional sort of luggage and baggage that came out of that stuff through the process we did. It was, you just call it very, very intense counseling, if you wanna call it that. And, so we, but I still needed to kind of move forward. I was thankful for the relationship with her. I was angry, upset, but certainly in denial for not months but years, because of that event and when it occurred. There. And then being a person of interest is, has its own dynamics. Oh, so they thought it might have been you? Well, there was that consideration. Now I had a, alibi. I was actually with my parents that night when this [00:23:00] occurred. So that, I mean, I lived alone. I was a single guy, so it was just happenstance, the Holy Spirit protecting me mm-hmm. From any kinda suspicions. But really they were trying to figure out who did it. And I was a witness to, that by being one of the last people to talk to her alive. Hmm. And now, you know, when we're recording, this is many, many years later, almost 40 years later, uh, but still it has sort of an emotional tag that goes with that. So all of us have had things that happen. My encouragement is, is no matter what, because I mean, you're in your podcast trying to help people go through trauma. You always have a choice about what you're gonna do with it. And as a trained counselor. A lot of times in the past, counseling was always about processing your past. I disagree with that. Is that we need to look to our future. Mm-hmm. You know, Carolyn Lee's research on, you know, you know who turned on, who switch off your brain and switch on your brain. Her [00:24:00] books really talks about what you focus on. Gets more on more of it. So if I go in counseling and just relive the event and relive the event and relive the event, well I haven't moved you forward. Forward. So I'm not denying its issues or what's going on or that it happened, I'm just denying it's hold in your future. So this is around forgiveness. I had to forgive the guy who killed her. Mm-hmm. Because, uh, you know, the old story, everybody has heard this, if you've been in any front of any servant, is that unforgiveness is like you taking the poison and wanting the other person to live. Right. We've all heard that. Yes. Well, we just need to be reminded of that to, I wasn't obviously agreeing with the heinous act. He did, but I had to forgive him so that I would be free in that his heinous act wouldn't be affecting me, plus my family and everybody else around me as well. So, uh, I don't think you knew that story was coming, Diana. Actually, I did. I [00:25:00] read your blog. Oh, you did? You did. Oh, well, you're one of the few. So, uh, and when I do my normal podcast, I don't mention this for very often, but you know, the Holy Spirit has lifted me up, been there beside me in that. It's not him who did this. You know, I can rely on him to be able to kind of build me up. And in fact, I have to, I mean, if we're going through life, we're just gonna have stuff happen. Mm-hmm. It's just part of the dynamic of living in a broken world. Yeah. It definitely is a fallen world. Yeah. I'll swing around back to what you said about forgiveness. Did the, murderer, go to prison or did he think of that? Yeah, he was eventually caught. What they did is they knew who he was, but they didn't, you know, DNA was kind of, just in its infancy stages then in 1982. So, what they did is they set up a sting operation and then they had somebody, you know, where people wear wire and they're recording what's being [00:26:00] said. There was some, someone in his life that he had semi revealed that he was involved with this. And so they knew that, but they couldn't prove anything. So then they set up this sting and then it went from there. And then once he sort of confessed in this, sting operation with this person, then it went to downhill from there. Yes, he was, I think his time, I think he's like in life, in prison for life. So was it easier to forgive that you saw some justice for your girlfriend, or did that not really matter? It's so long ago. I'm not sure if I recall if I was thinking either way, but mm-hmm. But I think finding the person who did it was important just for safety matters. Mm-hmm. And curiosity and just, you know, who was it that did this? I, knowing the person to a certain degree, I mean, because we had hired him and had interactions with him. He wasn't a hundred [00:27:00] percent there, if you know what I mean. Oh, okay. Just so, I don't wanna use the word simple, but I use the word just not a hundred percent. You know, the elevator didn't go a hundred percent to the top. And I think it was not planned. I believe that it was just a sexual advance go bad, and he went to a point of no return, that she's gonna say something, I'm gonna get into trouble. And the only way to stop this is to end her life. Mm-hmm. And I believe that's what occurred and what happened. So he was single, he was in his thirties. Mm-hmm. Uh, and you know, a lot of sexual predators are kind of in that category. I don't know if he was or wasn't. I don't know. And there was no other charges in other parts of his life. But that's kind of how that unfolded. Ian, you know, at this point, I'm obviously very, very sad. She was an amazing girl. And being my grad prom date had sort of a. Not sort of had a significance sort of in my history, in my life as well, but I was just thankful that justice was [00:28:00] done and those things were discovered. And I'm just saying to those people at watch who are listening, that, you know, no matter what happens, we have these choices to be able to move to the next level. I mean, I'm thankful Diana, for your ministry and Ministries like you that help people to kind of bridge that gap from where they are to where they need to do or some of the work that we do as well. So, you know, example is my parents, my mom mm-hmm. Still has not processed this adult child of alcoholic. Her behavior is around it. Mm-hmm. In interesting enough, my sister who is in her fifties, and I hopefully she doesn't watch this, is you know, some of the tendencies are there too. Like, I know my parents won't watch it. But you know, if one of my family members watch it, is that, that worry side, that anxiety side that gets passed down? Yes. Now and obviously my depression side came out of that family dynamic. Mm-hmm. And then with my dad, never saying, never having a compliment. I think he just emotionally was unable to do it. Mm-hmm. Now, what's [00:29:00] really fun is my kids are 25 and 24 now, and they're very developed and skilled individuals. My wife Brenda, is a school teacher, so we're both in the professional development fields. Mm-hmm. And for their age. The kids are amazing. Of course, parents are biased about this, but they really mess with grandpa and grandma now. Oh. So my daughter will go in there, grandpa, we really, really, really love you. We really do. Just waiting to see if he'll say anything. And then he'll go, so he'll mumble and then he'll kind of be embarrassed. He'll look down. And it's not that he doesn't have any emotions, but the kids kind of know that. And they just, because grandparents can't mess with their grandkids that way. And then my son will do the same thing with them. And so from that point of view, we've just loved on them, accepting them for where they're at. I feel badly for them that they haven't been able to brace everything that they could. You know, when we're in the stressful situation, we are in the world right now. They have just taken the [00:30:00] worry of the whole world upon their shoulders. Right? You know, God's very clear in his word. Fear is from the enemy. Mm-hmm. You know, it doesn't mean stupid, but there's not one scripture that I'm aware of unless you want to correct me, Diana, that says, you know what? Being fearful a little bit's. Okay. Everything is fear. Not Well, you know, God says, he gives you fear so you don't jump off the edge of a cliff or, bungee jump off of Well, I have bungee jump, but I hear what you're saying is that, that fight or flight, yeah. That's a healthy fear. It keeps you from doing something really stupid. Mm-hmm. But, and then when we get into the scripture, you know, fear fear of the Lord is really a reverence for 'em if you get into the Greek and the Hebrew. Mm-hmm. Is that it's reverence for them and it's honoring of them. And in that's part of the problem in the global society right now. There's no fear of him. There's no reverence for God anymore. No. And so it's a godless society in many ways. That's why people are acting out when you take [00:31:00] God out, then you get these situations where people are spiritualists and they really are acting on their own. And the enemy is controlling them. Mm-hmm. Exactly. And their flesh. Yeah. Well, for sure. And if it's not modeled for you and we teach that in our development factors model that as an observer, as a child of the relationships around you, that's all you know to do. Yeah. And of course we think that life is around social media, that it's around podcasts like this, but there was none of that. Mm-hmm. Back 50, 60 years ago. And in fact, the TV was just even coming in and some of the examples there, and most of the examples were way more wholesome. Yeah. And loving back then. I think the. The most amount of violence was on gun smoke. Uh, I love that show. Of course. I mean, those of us that are older, remember that one? That was great. So part of what, you know, I wanna encourage the listeners [00:32:00] is, people do the best that they can with what they know. My mom has told me that she loves me, but it's kind of an awkward thing. It's a thing that she does there. If I say that I love her, then she would say, well, me too. Um, but not everybody is that way. And then you talk about intimacy. We used to joke with my parents that said, how do we exist? You guys never touch each other. Like, how did it even happen? Like, was it an accident while you were sleeping or something? So we used to just, we joked about that because there was zero. Intimacy between them. And but I think that again, was cultural and that was part of it. Now, when we think about ministry and spiritual life, and again, the, hopefully this reaches people and it touches your heart for the I went to a church that really nice people, but the services were equivalent to a funeral. Oh yeah. And then the other one is, is when you have the theology and the mindset that you do in that group, they were one of the, some of the most miserable people [00:33:00] that I knew, and this was the Christian Church. I said, well, why would I wanna be part of this? Right. 16, 17, 18, 19, I really fell off and I was crazy, wild and everything. Went to college found out that, uh, man, I could buy four cases of beer for 20 bucks back there in the province of Alberta. And the drinking age was 18 and that's what I was. And so it was a crazy time for me. But then when I got into my later years of my twenties, 26, 27, I was invited to a Bible study by a friend of mine and I said, I don't know. Like I always knew God was there. Mm-hmm. But I really didn't wanna have anything to do with him. I wasn't vile. There was some people that were violent. I was just disinterested in Christian people. Mm-hmm. The number one reason that I left the church were Christians. Yep. At least in my head. But I was around 25, 26 and I went to this Bible study and that this friend of mine, he had, it was a business owner and he had it one Saturday a month. And I walked in this room and [00:34:00] here are these Christians telling jokes and having fun. And it says those two things don't coexist with being a Christian. So he is having fun, he is telling jokes, he's enjoying himself. It wasn't a legalistic pet. And abyss. I said, what? And so all of a sudden my eyes were started to open up and then the spirit, oh no man, the spirit's gonna come. I might even cry. But he came to me because he had me tagged for this kinda work, right? Is he says, Ken, it's not about you and them, it's about you and me. Mm-hmm. So when we have issues with other people, it's always about going vertical. People will always disappoint you. And then his other, his next word to me was clear. He says, and Ken, when were you? Perfect. So none of us are perfect. And so, you know, some of the most judgmental people I've ever met were, have been in the Christian environment, right. That legalistic kind of side. And I said, okay, fine. [00:35:00] Now moving towards it. And that's when I was baptized in a friend's pool, I think it was 28 years of age, and started to go on this journey. And then later on started doing more work for Ministries and said, you know what? I really want to hone my, ministry side and decided to. Take additional biblical studies. Mm-hmm. And then be ordained actually through a friend of mine who, he has a pastor of a church, but he also is one of our associates. 'cause we license other people, around the world to use our tools to serve their community. So this pastor was using it to serve his team and all his team members were going through it. And he also was doing community outreach. And he says, no, we'll, Andor and you. Ordain you under our, CEEC banner. So there's probably about 4,000 kind of interdenominational groups that are under this banner, and that's why I'm ordained under that. I think, I don't know if I mentioned this in the podcast we were together yesterday, or the session yesterday, is I don't ever see myself being quote unquote a pastor of [00:36:00] a church, but doing extended ministry, helping people in ministry and leadership. I've, done a lot of retreats for leadership mm-hmm. For denominations because I can bring the expertise as a leadership in professional development consultants and well as a consultant to bear with the ministry context. And so it's just adding, and that's where I love actually doing the work. We have a local church, one of the larger ones, and the youth minister is a friend of mine. He also does apologetics. And so what we started to do is do his leadership group on our personality. I have a book called, why Aren't You More Like Me? Mm-hmm. And every once or twice a year, we would do retreats for those youth leaders that were 18 to 30 years of age. And in that moment I said, you know what? God has created us uniquely, but also perfectly for the assignments that he has for us in life. It's our responsibility to figure out [00:37:00] what that is. So, Dr. Pastor Randy, would get up front and he would say, next to accepting Christ. He says, I think this is one of the most important things you could learn, because every single person on this planet has a personal style. Other people call it a personality. Mm-hmm. And you are gonna bring that to bear in everything you do, every relationship you touch, every work piece, and responsibility you do. And it's not right, it's not wrong. You are uniquely created for the purposes that he has for you and the plan he has for you and the assignments he has for you and every. Personality or personal style has related strengths and stuff. Challenges, I guess. So I need to be responsible for that. I have, if I didn't have the strengths and tenacity that I was naturally born with, no way, I would've had the fortitude or resilience to overcome some of the things that this company's been through and some of the things that have been in front of me in my life. Wow. On the other hand, you don't want me to [00:38:00] be the auditor of your ministry books 'cause I'll just say it close enough because I absolutely. I might have an MBA, but I really dislike the minute details. I'm really an idea person, even though I've written 4 million words. The words are through ideas to influence people to improve their lives. Mm-hmm. To write a textbook on trigonometry is, I need him to come here and I'm gonna go to heaven quicker. I'm never gonna write. So part of those of you that are watching our ability to say no is equally important as our ability to say yes. Mm-hmm. So our responsibility as individuals, as believers say, everybody says, okay, the're great commission to share his word with other people. Okay. But where doing what for you? So that is the bigger question for us individually, to say, where does he want you to go? What does he want you to do? And you know, if I would've followed the [00:39:00] cultural pressures, I'd still be on the dairy farm. Mm-hmm. With my. Two brothers. And so my youngest brother has taken over the dairy farm and now his son is looking at taking over and his son has got a son. So now you're talking five or six generations. That's great. That's fine. But that's not what I am called to do. So my encouragement is, if you're watching this, there's two things. First of all, don't let the pressures of the past and other people's expectation drive you. Really only a Holy Spirit can lead you. Mm-hmm. And some close advisors that have wisdom and insights or even a word of knowledge for you that you wouldn't know that's driven from the Holy Spirit, not from here. The second one is that is true for you and you're a parent, or you're a significant other, or you're a partner. Why wouldn't you honor that uniqueness of the people around them as well? A friend of mine who's a believer, who was part owner of the company that I now own a hundred percent and I, but I've known him for 40 years. He, when we first got involved with this, he says, [00:40:00] Ken, my son's really. He's not gonna amount to anything. He's the laziest kid I've ever met. But what he was saying, because my friend is a driven entrepreneur like this guy at 70 works 12 hours a day, six days a week, even now, and you can't stop him. And that's just who he is. It's the fabric of who he is. He was a dairy farmer as well, so you, he's already got that in his gene. His son, who was not really lazy, was just extremely easygoing. So his style was just Dad, no chill. Just chill. Dad, whatever. You know what he is now? Pediatric doctor. Aw. So, sometimes we go there and we judge people and we say, you're not gonna melt to anything. You're lazy. You shouldn't be doing this. And in fact, God had a calling for, his name is John. To be a doctor and think about his nature. He's caring for kids, he has a heart for kids, he has the temperament for kids, he loves on them as a doctor. And then [00:41:00] gifted on that, what a better place to be now. The relationship between father and son have never been better as part of it. You know, as you think about this, how can we create a space, a safe space for individuals like you or me to go on this journey of discovery with me, not because of what I say or don't say, but together so that I can help you realize your potential. And one of the things that is, um, I do still kind of get a little miffed at how Christians can put other people down for certain reasons. Absolutely. Or just people in general. I had a point, and now it's gone. It'll come back to me here in a moment. But part of this is that. We don't want to be judging people about their direction and putting them down for certain directions. Mm-hmm. Because now what we're doing is we're spilling our fear into their space. The reality is the enemy will bring people around you to discount you. We even talked about that yesterday in [00:42:00] the, Christian business owners call. Mm-hmm. Is that the enemy wants to discount your worth. Yes. If I go, I have zero people says, Ken, you still get nervous speaking in front of groups. I says, never. Never. If it's a thousand people, 2000 people, 3000 people, I love it. I'm energized. You ever get nervous? Getting on a show? Never does not happen. However, if I'm asked to preach in front of a church, then the worthiness, the enemy comes after me and says, Ken, do you know who you are? What gives you the right to speak about Christ's righteousness in front of these people? And so my, so I want to call it wisdom mm-hmm. To individuals, is that the enemy wants to discount that, there's a big difference between confidence and arrogance is that we wanna be confident in who he is. And yes, he has asked me to share his word with others in the context, and I've done preaching for people online and in services at churches, [00:43:00] and then also led, you know, Ministries through our work and leadership and personality and wellness and all these things. But I'm still working on this thing where the enemy wants to attack this. Who do you think you are? Hmm. When he called out Moses, when Moses says, well, I'm not equipped for this. We use the, scripture from Gideon. I'm the weakest of my clan. Why? Why choose my me? And I started to think about that. Think about all the people that God chose. To lead and be in front. Half of them are murderers. I mean, I'm being demonstrative, but Right. So, hello. That didn't exclude them. Then you have this Pharisee who is killing Christians on the weekend, who wrote nearly half of the New Testament. Absolutely. What are you talking about? Because he's trying to demonstrate to you, me and everybody watching the transformational nature of his spirit and that there is nothing that's not [00:44:00] possible if you're in his will and following it. I will never, in spite of all, like you were talking off air about these, I'll call it new age kind of positive thinking stuff. Mm-hmm. I will never be a basketball player. It's just not gonna Me neither. At five nine. It is not gonna happen. It's just, I can have all the goals in the world. I can visualize all I want. It's just not going to happen. But if it's in the context of his will, and here's the other responsibility. As believers, it's your responsibility to find out what that will is. Where does he want you to go? And again, to be really careful, be really cautious to only get feedback from those people who are trusted advisors that know the spirit. Oh, I know what I was gonna say earlier is my family, when I decided to leave my sales job to start my own sales training, even then my parents said, my dad said to me, why would you leave a company that gives you a free [00:45:00] car? And then they give you lunches. Two, what a what an idiot you are to leave that job, to start this training business. Well, that company, by the way, three or four years later, went bankrupt. So that was kind of a little get back at your dad moment there. And they sort of fine. But that's how people are thinking. They're well-meaning they're trying to protect you. But don't absorb their fear. Don't let their doubt come into your space. Sometimes you have to be extremely guarded about I'll call it the unbelief of others around you. When Jesus didn't chastise the disciples very often, but he chastised them about fear in the boat and the water. Mm-hmm. But he also chastised their unbelief when they couldn't heal the crippled individual who was come on, help me with the word Diana. Possessed. And they said, what? Why couldn't we cast out the devil? They said, because of your unbelief. So [00:46:00] sometimes we need to make sure that we guard ourselves and be around those people that really are there with us, Diana, on that side, I'm getting a little preachy now instead of just a podcast on those. I love it. I love it. But my, and we talk a lot about boundaries that you have to have boundaries, physical boundaries, as well as mental boundaries. Who are you hanging out with? Who are you allowing to influence you? That's super important. Oh, and in fact, I was talking about this on another, podcast just this morning that I was on, is that, the research is clear who you associate with matters, and the proof is, is that your five closest associates will be the highest level of influence. In other words, if we look at your five closest friends, I can almost predict. With certainty what you are going to be like, how you're gonna think, how you're going to act, because you're constantly influencing each other. Now I remember, and I know you're almost getting close to the end of the show, but one of my [00:47:00] colleagues, not a believer, but very wise guy, Dr. Marshall Goldsmith, one of the top coaches in the world, wrote the book Triggers and What Got you here won't get you there. And I was at an invite only event in New York with him and 20 or 30 other people in the coaching industry. And one of the things he stated, and this is so true, especially people with trauma and they have family, is that a lot of times you want to go to a new level. So Diana, you're going to a new level, you're doing the podcast, you're doing this ministry, you're growing, I'm growing. Your past, the people that you grew up in high school or the people that know you or your family, they wanna keep you where you were. They don't want to you to go where you're going. So an example is when I got my doctorate degree, we had a family dinner and it was kind of a celebration. And one of my family members said to me with almost with the stain, we are never calling you doctor. Hmm. And part of it is that they knew me for who I was 30 years ago. [00:48:00] And then of course I left the farm. I went on my own started to develop relationships and connections with amazing people around the world. Is that some, not that I'm better than them, but I am different. And so I don't really share what I do with my family members. And that's what Marshall was teaching in his group is that sometimes who you become doesn't fit the people that you used to hang out with. It doesn't mean you don't hang out with them. You just limit that you are being with your family. Diana, what are you doing? He says, well, I'm doing ministry work and I'm running a podcast and just really helping people to overcome trauma. And that's it. That's all it's done. We don't talk about the great people we met or 'cause what happens is you're seen as being arrogant and who do you think you are rather than colleagues where you're just sharing your excitement about this growth. Oh yeah. I had relatives come up to me 'cause they heard me, I was a guest on somebody else's podcast. Oh, she can't do that. You know, she's gonna hurt somebody. She's not a licensed counselor. She's not this, she's not that. [00:49:00] And I have had training. I get considerable training. I'm not a licensed counselor, but the program that I follow, was written by a trauma counselor and a theology professor. So that's called Mending the Soul, by the way. Mm-hmm. Anyway, yeah, they're definitely, we're all already people telling me, well, you shouldn't be doing that. Who are you? You're not some, super professional girl. You're just Diana, you're just an abuse survivor. That's all you are kind of thing. So, yeah. Well, what happens a lot of times is envy can come in, jealousy can come in. They wanna still contain you and me to who we were, but it's also still their perception is true with, one of my family members where, they go on, oh, you, you're always this person that talks too much. That's what my dad said to me when I was a teenager. And of course he was putting me down for my style and what I do. And it was interesting because even though he [00:50:00] says, Ken, you talk too much and put me down for my style. I was the person that asked to be m Mc of banquets when I was 16 and 17 years of age because I would be quick on my feet, I'd be able to have a responsiveness. And I also took. The responsibility of being an mc of a banquet. Seriously, because have you ever been to these banquets that's run by volunteers where you have just a terrible mc and they ruin the night? Oh yeah. Well, the opposite. I said, no. I take this as a profession. Mm-hmm. And recently, interesting enough, in spite of sort of the history, my dad has a group called The Pioneers, which are elderly people have been in our community for, 60, 70, 80, 90 years. And they asked me to be the mc. And so then I've done it for two years. They won't hold it this year. And people come and said, how are you able to do that? Because the people that were doing it before were on the board. They were, dementia was already setting in and they were trying to lead this banquet and it was just a [00:51:00] disaster, nice people. But they were way out of their element and they shouldn't have been MCing it. Here's a family trying to contain, you said, who do you think you are? Put you down for talking yet. It's my profession. It's what I do. I've been paid or have conducted 3000 presentations around the world in the last 32 years. Hello? What? Like, help me out here and just like your family, my dad is, just really unsure about what I really do. If I say I'm doing some speaking or training for like Chrysler, well, he gets that, but producing psychological tools and assessments and all the other work, like we were talking around purpose. No, they, they wouldn't get it. So part of, you know, all of that story from both of us for the viewers and listeners is that it's okay to move on, but also you don't have to share your new life with your old life. Yeah. And that you can be that person for them, but guard your [00:52:00] future sort of, expounding about what you're gonna do and writing these books and creating these e-course and all that kind of stuff, they don't care. They're not there. So it's interesting because my wife and I, when we go to family events we talk about emotional intelligence and we talk about interpersonal intelligence and we talk about self-awareness. But one of the things we do at family events, we, we have a game. We say, could we go all night with 20 people in the room with three hours a time? We're not a single person will ask us a question about us and we can do it multiple times. So we go to an event and Diana, how are you doing and what's new at the ministry? And, how's the family doing? And I heard you went on this trip, a gifted conversationalist is a person who asks questions, right? But what we note is that nobody asks myself or my wife a question. Now, there's the odd occasion where it does occur. It does happen, but it's extremely [00:53:00] rare. So people like to talk about themselves. So we might say, well listen, we're thinking about going to Hawaii. Oh, we went to Hawaii two years ago and we're over here. And all of a sudden they're telling a story, which is all about being self-centered about their trip to Hawaii two years ago. And we just shared what, where we're going to Hawaii. They didn't ask about where you're going, when you're going, who's going? No. They went on to their own. This is a conversational skillset that most of the population does not have. And by the way, for those of you watching play the game. Go out there and, don't talk about yourself. If somebody talks about something, make sure you respond to it, but then transition back to a question and see if you can go all night without anybody asking a question about yourself. And then here's the other one. Don't be offended by it. Give it up. Offense is a choice. You know, we talked about trauma and we talked about forgiveness, but being offended is also a choice. Mm-hmm. Dr. David's Burn's work around, trauma, if you've ever read his book feel good [00:54:00] is, I mean, it's got about 500 pages at four point font. Is that my response is always a choice. Yes. And even Dr. Gottman in his work around relationships is that once I get over 100 beats per minute non-athletic, I'm no longer rational. Well, that's where we have trauma. We have abuse, we have crazy things that happen. One of our number one constituents, we serve as law enforcement. So, Dr. Anderson, who founded the company, was a criminology professor. And then one of my co-authors, Dr. Mitch dti, teaches law enforcement officers emotional intelligence. What's the most dangerous situation for law enforcement to go into domestic dispute? Yes. Why? Because people are irrational. Mm-hmm. So I've let myself get ramped up. I'm now biologically I'm no longer in control of my emotions. Mm-hmm. And now I will say and do things that will regret. Now I'm completely [00:55:00] outta control. I mean, there was this situation that happened in Palm Springs a couple, two, three years ago where there was abusive situation carrying on. The officers broke up, the couple started to contain him, and then she got a gun out and killed both officers. Oh. So that's why officers in these environments, they said you have to watch your back because it's completely. Unpredictable as part of it. So I mean, there's obviously lots of things that we've covered today in the show and we've gone for our 55 minutes. Anything else, Diana, that you wanted to maybe poke your head into before we close? Well, we could go down a whole bunch of rabbit trails on a lot of things that you said. You said so many great nuggets. But maybe for our listeners, perhaps. Give like a list of actionable things that they can do right now. Now just before I do it, so that we don't miss you, I have a gift for everybody. Yes. And [00:56:00] so I'm gonna give you access to the e-copy, Of my the Quest for Purpose book in the get that is go to my speaker site, which is Ken Keys, K-E-N-K-E-I s.com/faithful. You'll in that hidden URL and of course you'll be able to put it in the show notes, Diana as well. Mm-hmm. Is that you'll be able to go there and then download the e version of the book. What I am sometimes shocked at is that I give away this book is that the amount of people who don't. Opt in to get the book. It is a roadmap, a step-by-step process to get clear about who and what and where, and what you should be doing in your life and all components. And now it's gonna take work, it's gonna take time, but where are you gonna be in six months if you don't do it? So, uh, it's there. I spent six months going through this process with my coach, Mike McManus, you know, driving three hours each way when it wasn't pertinent. So when I think about actionable steps, [00:57:00] and you think about people's lives, first of all, if you don't have a purpose in life, then your purpose is to find your purpose. And so that becomes the focus, rather than trying to say, I better be doing this, or I just take a breath. Allow yourself time and space. I've noticed that the Holy Spirit is never frantic. He is on time and he is moving forward, but he is never Fran frantic. And so, chaos is not from him. So just be peaceful, be quiet, and start paying attention and asking yourself this question, if you are doing what you're doing right now in all contexts of your life 20 years from now, is that okay? And if you say no, then that obviously infers change. So what is it that you're gonna move towards? Don't freak out. Don't try to do it all. I mean, if I'm trying to be a marathon runner this morning and then I said, I'm gonna run and do a marathon tonight, I'm gonna be dead. Just, I gotta [00:58:00] train for it. Yep. So life is the same way. The other one is for us and our resources, is that there's all different ways to get to clarity. So we have assessments and they're all learning assessments. So a values assessment, a self-worth assessment, a personality assessment we have a self-worth one I might have mentioned that already. And so all of those become puzzle pieces to create the clarity. The other one, Diana, is, is get a group that's gonna support you, look around and don't judge the five closest friend, but say are the five closest friends in a space that are gonna help you to go where you need to go. And sometimes one of my mentors used to say, you know what, Ken? Sometimes you need to fire clients. He says, why? He says, you've outgrown them. The client that you're serving now is not the client that you started with five years ago. So you know, like my fees and what I do is completely different than what it was 15 years ago. So [00:59:00] now start paying attention to that. And then the other thing is, is that life takes effort. If you get finish watching the show and do nothing and do no action steps, then you're gonna have the same thing tomorrow. So what are the steps that you can take? Start moving towards it, download the book. It's got a complete roadmap. And the other thing we'll make sure that my contact information is there, Diana, is that if people have questions, reach out, I'll respond as, as best as I can in the time that's allotted there. But I'll respond to you to be able to say, Hey, how can we help you or call you and your ministry? Mm-hmm. And some of the coaching that is available there. So that'll get you started. And again, don't try to do it all overnight. Just take one step at a time. The research shows is that if you try to three things at wants to change it, you have about a 15% likelihood of implementing it and a 75% success rate if it's just one thing. So one thing at a time, progress forward and keep listening to Diana's podcast. [01:00:00] And that should be the other step that they do too. Right. Wow, this was so awesome. I cannot wait to read that book and I hope that our listeners will download the book and get busy reading it and putting those things into practice. We will probably have to have you back again in the future because I can just tell you have so much more to share with us to help anytime to be able to serve and support and, you know, go granular in some of these other areas that we can talk about. For sure, anytime, Diana, So today, just choose one thing, one small thing to get you closer to your healing goals. God bless. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org [01:01:00] where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.

At Viirtue Connect in Nashville, John Christian, Vice President of Marketing at Akixi, joined Doug Green, Publisher of Technology Reseller News, to discuss how Akixi is helping MSPs and telecom providers stand out in an increasingly commoditized communications market. Akixi delivers value-added analytics, CRM integration, and call recording solutions that enhance cloud-based telephony and UCaaS platforms. “We exist to help our partners solve business problems—whether that's missed revenue, productivity challenges, or customer experience gaps,” Christian explained. “In a world where everyone is selling the same call control, Akixi helps service providers differentiate.” A channel-only company, Akixi focuses on scalability, ease of provisioning, and simple billing—making it easier for MSPs and service providers to package and deliver advanced reporting and analytics alongside their UC offerings. Christian noted that some partners now lead with Akixi when selling their communications platforms because the real-time call analytics and visualization tools deliver immediate value to business customers. During the discussion, Christian highlighted a growing industry trend: specialization. “The MSPs that are succeeding are those who understand their customers' specific challenges—whether in healthcare, recruitment, or retail—and build tailored solutions around those needs,” he said. “Specialization builds trust and reduces perceived risk for customers transitioning away from legacy systems.” As MSPs look ahead, Christian believes differentiation will come from layering insights, integration, and intelligence on top of standard UCaaS platforms. “We help our partners move beyond selling technology to delivering outcomes—and that's where the real opportunity lies.” To learn more about Akixi, visit www.akixi.com.

When it comes to building a successful digital marketing agency, the common advice is: specialize. But after working with over 170 agencies that scaled past $1M, one thing is clear,  agencies that only specialize in one service often hit a ceiling. The Problem with Single-Service Specialization If your agency focuses on just one offering, like [...] The post Why Single-Service Agencies Struggle (and the Smarter Way to Specialize) appeared first on Seven Figure Agency.

Get 30 Days of Merlin free at MerlinCrypto.Com In this episode! In the News: H1B Visa's are now $100K H1B Visas are now $100K. Does this effect you; maybe not. It could affect my business Age of Radio. I'll tell you how in News You Should Know! Article here: N/A Today's Main Topic: It's Time To Specialize! I have spent a lot of years building business and learning a lot, but I haven't continued to increase my knowledge in the things I "Specialize In." Things like Music, Finance, Audio Engineering, and Advertising. I'm going to touch base on what I am doing, and I encourage you to make a plan of action to continue to grow in your specializations. Enjoy! Join the Age of Radio Discord | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://discord.gg/EeamD8WcjN⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow me on Goodpods ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://goodpods.app.link/usUyBZzhuNb⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Free Financial Consultation: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://forms.gle/B6nNZ2FbxbhESCHg9⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Red Wizard Gaming Society: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://discord.gg/9D43EszdUB⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   DM if you are interested in Life Insurance! If you or someone you know has been struggling or in crisis please call or text 988 or chat ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠988lifeline.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  

In this episode of The Modern Hairstylist Podcast, host Hunter Donia and guest Jodie Brown show stylists how to build true top of funnel visibility that turns into bookings. If you have been doing all the right things but still feel invisible, this conversation focuses on getting the right eyeballs on your work and keeping them engaged. Whether you are rebuilding your book or simply ready to be more discoverable, you will learn how to research your ideal client, show up where they already spend time, and keep your profiles search and AI ready without living online all day. Key Takeaways:

What's the fastest way to fail as a new broker—and what's the one move that could save you? In this no-punches-pulled episode, Ron Butler lays out what's really happening in the mortgage industry right now—and what new brokers must do to survive it. We cover everything from tech disruption and lender consolidation to why generalist brokers are getting crushed. If you're building a mortgage business in 2025, this is required listening. We'll cover: Why Volume Isn't Enough – What it means when the market grows 56%—and you don't. The Tech Arms Race – How platforms like Nesto and Edison are quietly reshaping broker competition. The Myth of Blockchain – Ron's take on crypto, NFTs, and whether any of it matters in our space. Specialize or Get Smoked – Why new brokers need to niche down yesterday. The Harsh Truth About Lender Trust – What lenders are watching—and what they won't tolerate. This industry isn't slowing down. Brokers who win the next five years will do it by specializing, focusing, and executing. Everyone else? They'll be gone. To connect with Ron, check out the links below: Instagram https://www.butlermortgage.ca/   Follow me on Instagram: www.instagram.com/scottpeckford/ I Love Mortgage Brokering: www.ilovemortgagebrokering.com Find out more about BRX Mortgage: www.whybrx.com Subscribe to my 3-2-1 Thursday Email I Love Mortgage Brokering is in partnership with Ownwell.  To see how top brokers are keeping clients engaged and generating leads from their database, visit ownwell.ca/scott.

The One Thing You Must Nail When Starting Your Cash-Based PT Clinic: Your Niche In this episode, Doc Danny Matta explains the #1 decision that will make or break a new cash-based clinic: defining a clear, winnable niche. He shares real client stories (Rainmaker → Mastermind), how his own clinic launched by owning the CrossFit space, and a simple 3-part test to choose a niche that actually grows your business. Quick Ask Like the show? Share it with a clinician friend or on your IG stories and tag Danny—help PT Biz move closer to the goal of adding $1B in cash-based services to our profession. Episode Summary Core thesis: If you don't define your niche early, your business will stall. If you do, traction accelerates. Rainmaker → Mastermind arc: Rainmaker helps you go full-time; Mastermind helps you scale beyond yourself into a standalone space and team. Real example: A client's schedule exploded after she narrowed her audience, created content for them, and showed up where they congregate (workshops + the right Facebook groups). Danny's launch playbook: He chose CrossFit in Atlanta (credibility + interest), then expanded later to runners and entrepreneurs as the clinic's reputation grew. Mission + money: “No money, no mission.” You can do pro bono after your model supports itself. The 3-Box Niche Test Can you help them? Litmus test: if you only got paid after they achieved the outcome, would you take the bet? Do you like working with them? Authentic energy wins. If you don't enjoy the group, your marketing will feel forced—and flop. Can they afford you? Some populations (e.g., heavy Medicaid pediatrics) won't support a cash model. Match your service to a segment with willingness and ability to pay. Why Narrow First (Then Expand) Speed: Clear messaging and offers convert faster when you're “the go-to” for a specific problem in a specific community. Referrals: Specialists are easier to recommend than generalists. Ops simplicity: Marketing, workshops, and content focus around one avatar—less guesswork, more reps. Expansion later: Once you dominate one niche, broaden to adjacent groups with confidence and social proof. Field Notes & Examples CrossFit start: High credibility (MobilityWOD teaching, comp-team experience) + enthusiastic buyer segment (membership fees, gear, coaching) = fast traction. Entrepreneurs niche: Emerged organically via networks; recurring “continuity” check-ins became a valuable service. Runners: Military background created deep reps with run-related injuries—an easy adjacent expansion. Pro Tips You Can Use Today Audit your schedule: Which past patients did you love helping? Start there. Map the congregation points: List 5 IRL spaces (gyms, clubs, studios) and 5 digital spaces (FB groups, forums, local hashtags) your niche already uses. Publish niche-proof: Create 3 quick pieces: a “Start Here” guide, a case study, and a workshop outline tailored to one avatar. Use the bet test: Would you take the patient if you only got paid after the result? Plan for give-back later: Build profitability first, then add pro bono for populations you care about. Notable Quotes “Until I got really clear on who I wanted to work with, I struggled to get traction. When I defined my person, my schedule exploded.” “No money, no mission. A strong business lets you create the impact you want—including pro bono.” “The riches are in the niches. Specialize first; expand later.” Action Items Write a one-page niche brief: problem, desired outcome, objections, congregation points. Book 1–2 workshops this month with that niche's top local hubs. Record a 3-part content series answering the avatar's biggest pains. Set a 30-day focus rule: all marketing time goes to this one avatar. Programs Mentioned Clinical Rainmaker: Coaching + plan to get you full-time in your clinic. Mastermind: Scale beyond yourself into space, team, and systems. PT Biz Part-Time to Full-Time 5-Day Challenge (Free): Get crystal clear on expenses, visit targets, pricing, 3 go-full-time paths, and a one-page plan. Resources & Links PT Biz Website Free 5-Day PT Biz Challenge About Danny: Over 15 years in the profession—staff PT, active-duty military PT, cash-practice founder and exit—now helping 1,000+ clinicians start, grow, and scale cash-based practices with PT Biz.

From stylist to $13M CEO, Terra Harvell shares how she built her empire through hair extensions, smart systems, and leadership—and why new talent and startup hairpreneurs need to think beyond the chair to create lasting success.Follow/subscribe to be the first to know when new episodes are released. Like what you hear? Leave us a review!KEY TAKEAWAYS:

Every designer has heard it: “Pick a niche. Specialize. Focus.” Even on THIS podcast! But here's the uncomfortable truth... niching alone is a trap. The wrong kind of niche doesn't just slow your career, it cages you, makes you replaceable, and puts your future in the hands of clients, tech, or the economy.This should sting: most of you are doing it wrong. You're either chaining yourself to one fragile industry or boxing yourself into a single craft that AI and Fiverr can wipe out overnight. That's why so many designers feel stuck — hustling project to project, disposable the moment the job is delivered. Few will admit it, but most are already losing the niche game.But here's the shift: there's a better way. This week on The Angry Designer Podcast, we're blowing up the myth of niching and showing you how traditional niching is failing, and how stacking your skills makes you harder to replace, stickier with clients, and impossible to ignore.In this episode you'll learn:How industry niches can collapse and what to build insteadWhy craft niches can turn designers into one-trick poniesThe skill stacking method that creates a design ecosystem clients can't walk away fromThis isn't just about niches. It's about whether you're going to stay trapped in an outdated model or step into the future of design. The choice is simple: keep doing what every other designer does, or stack your skills and become the one they can't let go of.Subscribe to The Angry Designer Podcast for no-BS design truths, controversial takes, and the lessons that help you charge what you're worth and build a future-proof creative career.Stay Angry our Friends –––––––––––Join Anger Management for Designers Newsletter at https://tinyurl.com/mr4bb4j3Want to see more? See uncut episodes on our YouTube channel at youtube.com/theangrydesigner Read our blog posts on our website TheAngryDesigner.comJoin in the conversation on our Instagram Instagram.com/TheAngryDesignerPodcast

 In this episode, Ashley shares her powerful story of overcoming domestic abuse. Ashley recounts her tumultuous marriage marked by emotional and psychological abuse, her journey through a traumatic childbirth experience, and her eventual separation. She discusses the impact of her childhood abuse, her struggle with self-doubt, and the challenges of single motherhood with special needs children. Ashley also shares how her faith and community support played vital roles in her healing journey. The episode concludes with Ashley's advice for others in abusive situations to prioritize self-care and seek supportive communities. 00:00 Introduction to the Podcast 00:34 Meet Ashley: A Survivor's Story 01:38 Ashley's Background and Journey 04:19 Challenges of Parenting Special Needs Children 05:12 Coping During the Pandemic 06:55 Ashley's Upbringing and Faith Journey 14:21 Meeting Her Husband and Early Red Flags 16:15 The Birth of Ashley's Children 21:34 Experiencing Abuse and Control 23:26 Realizing the Extent of Abuse 24:15 Deciding to Leave 25:42 The Second Separation 32:05 Ongoing Abuse During Divorce 35:02 Healing and Support 38:56 Faith and Moving Forward 41:53 Closing Thoughts and Encouragement   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/   Ashley Transcript [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. So today on the wounds of the Faithful podcast, we have a survivor story today. So please welcome Ashley to the show. Thanks for coming on the podcast and sharing a bit of yourself with us. Hi. You're welcome. I'm glad to be here. I haven't seen you since the girls. We went over to Starbucks for an outing and we had that incident with the spider. Yes, I know. Multiple spiders crawling around the table and on you. Oh, well I thought that Kelly had killed the one on the ground and then we found out there was another [00:02:00] one and it was on my shoulder and you wanna see me freak out? Okay, that's how you get me to freak out is a spider. So here we are trying to kill the spider. But we had a good time. It was fun. Just fun to get out. It was a hot day. We were out there roasting in the heat, but it was just fun to get out and, have some girl time. Right? Yes, definitely. We needed it. So, let's, get to know you a little better. So give us a little introduction about yourself. What general part of the country are you from, and are you married? How many kids you got, what do you do for a living? That kind of stuff. Okay. Well my name is Ashley, and I live in Arizona. I've been here for five years now. I was living in North Carolina with my husband and our family for, we were on the East coast for about, oh gosh, probably about eight years or so. And, living in, in North Carolina, Virginia, and [00:03:00] that area. So I met Diana through Mending the Soul. I joined because I have been separated from my husband for, about a year now. We've been separated twice and that was due to abuse that was going on in the marriage. So I have a history of abuse in my life, starting from when I was little. There was abuse that happened outside of the home, with. People that were slightly older than me. And that was more of like a, sexual abuse or molestation kind of situation. And then getting married, I thought it was a good relationship. I thought we were a good team. And we, I think it, it was okay for a while until we had children and that's when things started. Unraveling and a lot of patterns started popping up all over the place of, all kinds of a abuse that, not physical, but it was [00:04:00] emotional, mental, psychological, spiritual abuse, all of those. And I'm still kind of working through and wrestling with the effects that that had on me. And it's still, I mean, I have good days and I have really, really hard days. So it's kind of, it's still, even though it's been a year of being apart, it's still all over the place. Mm-hmm. Um, but I do feel like I'm making progress and, many, the soul did help with that along with counseling. So that's where I'm at right now and I'm currently going to school to get, to become a speech language pathology assistant. And, I have about just one semester left of that. And then I know I'm so excited to, hopefully get to work with kids that are, you know, having difficulties for whatever reason. And I am a special needs mom. My, middle child has autism and. So that's been a journey. And then my youngest also has struggles in certain areas of learning. So, yeah, this [00:05:00] will help me also, while being able to help other people. So that's where I'm at right now. So your special needs kids, what kind of challenges does that bring as a single mom and going through abuse? Mm. Oh gosh. I hadn't really thought of it in that context before, but it's a lot because you're, as a parent, you're trying to focus on their needs and trying to meet them where they're at, but at the same time, you're trying to meet yourself where you're at. So it's constantly trying to think of everyone's needs and trying to meet everyone where they are, including myself. So it is, it's a lot to think through. Every day. Yeah, but I love 'em and I mean, it's amazing to see their growth and, yeah. But it is definitely a struggle. So your kids free today, get a break, but how have you been coping during the pandemic with your kids? [00:06:00] What have you found that works? Yeah, so thankfully I've been talking to family about this also, our schedule. Because of Kim, his running his elopement, we have a hard time going to a lot of places already. So even before the pandemic, we didn't go to a lot of stores or we mostly spent our time outside and at home. So that really, I think, helped set us up for this situation because it wasn't a huge jump, you know, from being out around people all the time to nothing. So we were already kind of ready in some ways. So it's a lot of time outside as much as we can. The kids love roller skating. They love swimming. They love, yeah, just being outside doing anything they can. So that, and then, even doing games inside the house together is fun, like pillow fights or box, like my youngest likes to, like, he's practicing boxing and he loves to, [00:07:00] like I put on the oven MITs, and then he has his little boxing gloves, which is so cute. It's, it's fun. And, just trying to get their energy out. And then I work out also, so we're trying to like get all that energy from all of us. So it's, that's been good. Well, it's pretty funny. When we've had group, you know, the kids are there, three boys, like climbing all over her and poking her and mom, mom, mom. And she's trying to focus on, her part in the group, and, you just do the best you can, right? Yep. Exactly. That's, I think it's learning to just roll with it, so it's like, yeah, and like the pandemic continues to teach us that I think is, we just have to be able to roll with it as it comes. Wow. Oh, so tell us a little bit more about your upbringing. Were you raised in a Christian home? Not with my mom and my stepdad, who I lived with later, but my grandparents, who I lived with when I was little, they took me to the Nazarene Church and I was a part of that [00:08:00] community, so I was a part of a church. I don't particularly remember learning about Jesus or, salvation in particular. I just remember just in general learning about. God in general. And so that's kind of how I was raised. And then when I moved in with my mom and my stepdad, they're not a part of any faith community. So I would go either with friends to church, and then when I was older I would just go by myself, drove, I drove myself there. And and that's kind of how it started. What kind of relationship would you say you had with God? Was it personal? Was it God was distant or? Uh, I think when I was very little, I didn't feel like I had a relationship really, but always as I got older, I remember always feeling like he was there. I remember always feeling like I didn't quite understand how I knew that, but he just, I just felt like he was there with me. And then as I [00:09:00] continued. Learning more and especially after Ava, or sorry, especially after my daughter was born, I really realized the connection with Jesus and got, had my relationship with God through him. And so that's when it really became very personal. So like in the last 10 years, more so. Do you remember when you actually made that decision? Was there a day? Yeah, I don't remember the date, but, we had started having struggles in our marriage pretty soon after Ava was born and I was feeling so confused and so lost and like I needed to be doing more. And so I was going through the Love Dare book and in there it was really a really good book for that moment. And it lays out. Scripture each day. And at the end, it gives you an opportunity to accept Jesus. And I remember being so blown away during that book because no one had ever explained to me the importance of Jesus [00:10:00] and what he did for me. And so when I was like, why have I not heard this? Like, oh my gosh. And yeah. And so at the end I remember just sitting at the table crying, crying, like I could not stop crying. And it was like something inside of me just clicked and, yeah, so I said the prayer and, every, a lot of things changed after that and continued to change. Wow. That's, I've never heard a story like that. You know, I had The Love Dare book, actually, the guy I was dating. Mm-hmm. That was abusive to me, gave me that book, and it was really strange. He tried to get me to go back to my ex-husband, who was my one abuser, and, it was an excellent book, but at that time. There wasn't going to be any parting of the Red Sea Miracle with my ex-husband. I kept telling this guy, we're already divorced. It's over. Yes, I'm moving on. Yes. But it's amazing that you found Jesus through that book. I praise the [00:11:00] Lord for that. I know, and that's the, I think it's interesting because I started reading that book to help with the marriage. And it did somewhat, but I think the most, it was cool because God met me where I was doing what I was doing, you know? And it didn't matter why I started it. Yeah. It's just so cool. Amazing. So what were your teenage years like? Did you have a lot of self-confidence growing up? Oh gosh. I would say no. I mean, middle school was really hard for me. I had a lot of rejection and embarrassing things happen, and they kind of linked with the abuse. That happened when I was younger. And so that kind of, I spiraled quite a bit there and I just, I think, decided that I wanted to protect myself. And so I decided, okay, I'm gonna get straight A's in school. I'm gonna run track and I'm gonna do [00:12:00] the best I can with that and I'm not gonna get in trouble. And I just made all these like promises to myself, I think, to protect myself. So I think I appeared on the outside probably like I had. I a lot of confidence, but it really was protection and so I don't feel like it was confidence at all. It was all rooted in fear and trying to protect myself. So, no, I don't think I did. Mm. Now how did your grandparents play a part in your life? They were very significant. Mm-hmm. And they, yeah, they still, they're a huge part still. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to put into words everything that they've done, but they gave me a safe place. They've always been a safe place for me. And no matter what they, I have never felt abandoned by them. I've never felt judged by them. I've never felt, like they didn't try to understand me so they've always, they've been a consistent, safe place. Throughout my whole life. And [00:13:00] so even in those hard times, I, I did always know they were there. And, I would call my grandma instead of talking to my mom or anyone else, I would always call my grandma and talk to her. And she kind of helped me work through in college when I finally, I think I was hitting another breaking point in college when I was drinking a lot and really depressed. Honestly, I was running track at a college and. Trying to perform still, but then partying also. And there were these two parts of me that were like colliding and it was so painful and I didn't know how to get out of this situation. And so she helped me a lot through that also. And then later with my realizing the abuse with Dan, with my husband, and deciding to make changes there, she helped me a lot through that Also. Hmm. So yeah, her support has meant the world. I didn't really grow up with traditional grandparents. I didn't, my grandfathers died long before I was even cognitive, [00:14:00] and my dad's mother died when I was seven. And then my mother's mother, we didn't have a very close relationship because she was a very abusive person, and my mother mm-hmm. Didn't, my mother didn't want us around her and she really was a, nasty person. But, so I didn't really grow up with grandparents. I think that's why I was always friends with a lot of senior citizens. Were my good friends because I didn't have grandparents. I had, teachers and coaches and, the next door neighbor. Mm-hmm. I kind of clung too. So it was a blessing that you had have grandparents to be there for you and guide you through these tough times? Yes. Yeah. It's, it is. I mean, thinking about if I didn't have them, it's been hard enough. Even having that support. So I can't imagine not having that support. It's been, it literally feels like a gift. That God has put there to help me [00:15:00] get through all of this. And, yeah. So I'm just really thankful. So we're gonna transition to the unsavory part of the podcast. When did you meet your husband and were there any warning signs, that there was going to be abuse? So we met, we were both attending Arizona State University and we met there. We were part of a co-ed business fraternity. And, we met at a party and we, I mean, I felt like right away that I wanted to be with this person, even though I didn't know him. As I was telling you before, like I was in a really unhealthy place. All through college. It's because I, everything from my childhood hadn't been addressed and was still, all that pain was under the surface. And I think I was just trying to cover it up any way I could by drinking, sleeping with people. And, that's kind of where our relationship started. That's how it started in that [00:16:00] kind of context and. So we were both in a really unhealthy place. I think his, parents had just started the divorce process, I think when I met him. And he had a lot of pain from his childhood too. And so I think we both were just trying to cover up the pain. And so in the beginning I couldn't see any red flags because we were very similar, I think, in how we were. Covering up things and living life. And so it wasn't until really, until we had kids, because my attention was divided between him and the kids and my, and needing to take care of myself once my attention was divided, that's when all of the. The pattern started bubbling up, so I couldn't see it until quite a bit later. Mm. Wow. So when your children came along, you had a pretty dark time for you. Did you wanna share [00:17:00] about the, birth of your children? Yeah, I can. So my daughter's birth. Was overall good. We had to have a c-section because she was, she was not head down. She was bottom down and she did not wanna flip, which is totally, it's funny 'cause she's very, like kind of stubborn in her own way. And so it's funny that she just was like, Nope. Like, I'm good right here. I'm not moving. And so yeah, the C-section went well and, but. I remember I felt so sad in the hospital. I was so happy to see her, but at the same time, I think seeing her face and seeing how vulnerable she was as a baby, I think triggered everything in me at a whole new level from what happened when I was younger. So that's how her birth was difficult. And then, or my second child's birth. Was a slightly difficult Also, I was trying to have a [00:18:00] VBAC and the cord was wrapped around his, around his neck and his heart rate was dropping and so we had to go in for an emergency C-section. That one, went pretty well too. Overall, given the circumstances and everything. So it wasn't until a lot, our third child's birth. That was really, really difficult. And during that I was trying for another vbac, which looking back I wish I had not done that. But I was trying because I felt like that's, I really wanted that experience. And so I was trying and I found a doctor that would support me in doing that. And, um. It was, the birth was taking too long. I was kind of stalled in labor and they, I had an epidural and. I couldn't feel very much, but at one point I felt a pop. And this was as they were planning to get me into the [00:19:00] emerge, into the room to deliver, to via C-section. They were already planning it. We were just trying to get in there once it was open and available. Mm-hmm. And I felt this pop as they were planning this. And, I didn't know to say anything because I didn't. No, anything was wrong. I couldn't feel any pain. And we get into the emergency room, no, still no one knows anything has happened. And he's allowed to be awake and okay. And so I'm still awake and they find the, the rupture in my uterus. And I lost about probably half my blood and, and so that was very, very traumatic in and of itself. Getting out of the hospital was difficult because my blood still didn't look quite right to them. My blood work and everything, they weren't happy with it. And so, but I went home. And decided not to get a blood transfusion. Just because I didn't feel comfortable with it. [00:20:00] I ended up developing a hematoma and an infection, and had to go back in the hospital and was on antibiotics. I think it was about a week I was in there and. So when I came home, I was experiencing PTSD symptoms, but didn't understand that's what it was. Mm-hmm. I literally thought I was going to die all the time. I thought I was every minute of the day. Mm-hmm. I was checking to see what was happening in my body. Because I thought I was going to die for sure. And so I kept wanting to go to the hospital because I felt like what if I'm, I missed the infection before, I didn't know I had this infection. No one was telling me that I looked sick, you know? And I could have died from that infection. And, so yeah, I kept wanting to go to the hospital to see a doctor, just to make sure I was okay. And. I didn't understand what was happening to me, but at the time [00:21:00] he would tell me I didn't need to go to the doctor, you know, and yell at me that I, nothing was wrong with me, that I was fine telling me I didn't need to go to the doctor, making me feel bad about it. I was struggling to take care of the kids, because I was going through all this and not understanding what was happening. So this is where I really, really started to know that something was wrong, in the marriage because of how he handled this situation. So. Yeah, this is his children that he's talking about Most, you know, normal people. If you're, if you're suffering and it involves your kids or your spouse, you're gonna take them to the hospital. That's, that isn't normal. No. Even when I had the infection in my fever. I had started at home and I was shaking like I was, I couldn't stop. Like I would [00:22:00] shake out of the blue. My body would just, that's how far the infection had progressed. And he still was kind of telling me that I didn't need to go. But thankfully my doctor was like, you can come in tonight if you think you need to. And I was like, yes, I need to. Yes. When can I be over there like yesterday? Yes. So was that the first time that you've experienced abuse by him or were there other stuff on top of the post pregnancy and delivery stuff? There was, I mean, there was stuff here and there definitely like control over money, like making me feel bad about buying groceries like that. I spent too much, when I just, I mean I am very frugal. Like I love finding deals. I love all that. I mean, I am into that. I always have been. I am very particular about what I buy and mm-hmm. And I still, no matter how hard I tried to do a good [00:23:00] job, I would come home and it would not be good enough and it would be that I spent too much money. And so, yeah, it's definitely control stuff. I saw I was happening before, but I kind of took it on as this is something I'm doing wrong. And so it wasn't until the medical stuff happened that I realized. That I started to realize a little bit that maybe it was something else. Yeah. You're not the only one that had that. Mm-hmm. Had that problem with the spending money. I was in charge of getting groceries and buying all the Christmas gifts for his family, and it was always the same thing. You spent too much money and mm-hmm. And you bought too many groceries, like, well, why don't you try and get a full, week budget on a hundred bucks and see how good you do. Exactly. Or you buy all the presents for your family and see how well you do on the budget you gave me. [00:24:00] Yeah. The control, the verbal and emotional abuse. Mm-hmm. It's not just physical folks. Your abuser can make your life a living hell without laying a finger on you. Yes, and I think that's what I'm realizing now is I still have physical, issues related to the abuse that happened when Elijah was born. I have heart palpitations that I believe. Come from a mixture of what happened to me physically, but also what happened to me emotionally, that I felt so abandoned and so, confused during that time because of what was being told to me by, by my husband and. Yeah, and just realizing the extent that the damage goes, it's very different than, I mean, physical abuse and emotional abuse have some similarities, but Yeah. The, depths doesn't change just because we can't see it [00:25:00] on the outside. Exactly. Mm-hmm. When did you decide, enough is enough? I need to get out now. Was there a specific day or an event? Well, there were two, I mean two, it happened twice. So it happened in North Carolina. He was continuing to escalate as far as like telling me he was suicidal, which I believe he is. But he seems to, he uses it in certain ways to get me to stop doing things that he doesn't want me to be doing, like spending time by myself outside of the house or spending time with friends. Um. You know, not being able to have intimacy and things like that. So he uses that as a way to get me to stop. And so that was escalating also. He had started using intimidation, punching walls in the house, that kind of thing. So, and the friend had [00:26:00] just, I had never, no one had ever told me that what was happening was abuse. And I didn't know. I honestly did not know. And someone had just. That who had come from an abusive marriage had pointed out to me that I had told her what was happening at home. And she was like, that is abuse. And I was like, what? Are you serious? Mm-hmm. Like I was in shock that I didn't know that. And I think that was just a wake up call for me. When I have confronted it, he pushed back right against it and wanted me to come back home. He and, I, the kids and I had moved to a different house and, we're trying to figure out what to do and that's when I decided to move closer to my family. And so that was the first time we got back together about nine months after we separated. 'cause I just, I think I. I was struggling physically to [00:27:00] handle everything on my own, plus dealing with my mental health. And it was really hard. And I think I was struggling with how am I going to do this? And I missed having someone to share life with. I missed. And I thought, what if I'm wrong? What if I am, what if I'm wrong? And I'm just as messed up as he is? And, um, which I do have my stuff, but it's different. It's not the same. And so we got back together and then about, I think it was about three years after we got back together, all the same patterns had come back up. Mm-hmm. And it had started transferring over to things happening with the kids that as far as control and just emotionally abusive language towards them. And when I started seeing how it was affecting the kids, that's when I decided. No, I cannot let this continue. Because seeing that affect them, how it could affect them [00:28:00] being exposed to that long term, I can't handle that. So I think the kids have really, really helped me to do things for them and for myself that maybe I wouldn't, it would've taken me longer to do it if it was just for me, I think. So yeah, that's kind of how that happened. Yeah, I didn't have children early in the relationship. My ex didn't want kids right away, but then we were married about five to seven year mark then all of a sudden he decided he wanted to have children. And by that time, I already knew I was trapped in a marriage that was abusive and I did not wanna bring children into this world and subject them to that. Because like you say, it's fun if it's just me, but now I have kids that I am in charge of and you know, it's going to affect them. So I just made the decision and I told him, I'm not having children. Mm-hmm. [00:29:00] Sorry, I already have to deal with everything in the marriage that I didn't have. I wouldn't have had any, anything left. But, you made a lot of big points in that you didn't know that you were abused. And I was the same way. I was abused for 13 years and I used to call up my, one of my closest friends, and I used to cry every time. You know, this man would do something horrible and I would cry, and what am I gonna do? And mm-hmm. And one day, you know, she tells me. I'm tired of you calling me up and telling me all your stories. Every time this man does something to you and you need to get out of there. He's an abusive man and I'm like, but the church won't let me get a divorce. And she said, God is not going to not love you anymore [00:30:00] because you've made the choice to divorce this abusive man. That was the day that I, I woke up and I'm like, this is abuse. Mm-hmm. All this time, that's what this was. Mm-hmm. And I made the choice then and there, I need to make plans to get out. Mm-hmm. So , when you decided to leave the second time, what were the steps that you took to get out? I. Hmm. Let's see. So what was that? Was it similar to the first time or was it different? It was a little bit different. I'm trying to think through it. I was more on my own this time. I didn't like, I didn't have someone, I wasn't seeing a counselor at the time. I wasn't really a part of a group. I think I was the most isolated probably that I have been. [00:31:00] And so I really, I just, I think I talked to my grandma and just telling her what was happening. I also listened to some resources from Leslie Vernick and there was one in particular, I can't even remember what it was called, but it was about. Oh gosh, I can't remember specifically, but it was how a man was treating his wife in the Bible. And I think it was the Levite, maybe the story of the Levite. And when I saw their, just the implications of abuse and the effects and the seriousness of it, and that's not what God wants for me. I think once I saw that. I, that's when it really clicked. And I was also getting solo physically that I knew I had to do something. My body was starting to react, to all of the stress and [00:32:00] abuse. Heart palpitations, just constantly tense, feeling like something's going to happen. And so I think all of those things and seeing the effect on our kids, that's when I decided just to. Let him know that I'm not okay with it. And I'm trying to remember even we had a conversation and I let him know, I think we need to be separated. And at the time he agreed with me that we need to be separated, but he wanted us to stay in relationship still, even though we were separated. But I knew in my head that I was done. But it was good be that because that kind of started the process even though he thought that. You know, in his head he thought we would work it out eventually, I think it started the process and we lived in separate places. And then it just has continued from there with filing divorce. Hmm. So you're still in the middle of the divorce proceedings now, right? Yes. Mm-hmm. What's your [00:33:00] interactions been with him, through this proceedings? It's been. Just on and off communication. He, that's with him. He's not outrightly like, glaringly abusive, especially in text messages. That's never been how he is really, it's more covert. So the communication part, except for about a year ago, we had a situation where he wouldn't leave the house and, that's when I stopped being able to let him be here with the kids. But besides that, the communication has been minimal, thankfully. It's more been through money that the abuse has continued. And also through the legal proceedings, what he's asking for legally feels like abuse also. So yeah, he was like canceling credit cards and stuff on you. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it's those like subtle, [00:34:00] under the radar where people won't notice really that the abuse is still happening. Yeah. So you look like the bad guy 'cause you're leaving mm-hmm. Your husband, but he's like, trying to sell the house out from under you and the kids and cutting your credit cards. And it's like, how are you gonna feed the children? Where are they gonna sleep? I mean, these are your children. It's insane. Yeah. Your spouse makes you look like. Or makes you feel like you've lost your mind. Or like you said in the first time you left, well, maybe he's not that bad. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe it's not him, it's me. No, that's what they do. That's what they do, is they make you question your sanity and the reality of the situation. Mm. And that's still, that is the hardest part for me, especially right now with thinking about having to share my story with the court, with [00:35:00] people maybe who side with Dan. And having him there in front of me as I share what has happened. I'm really struggling even right now with, yeah. Do I know what's real? Can I, can I hold on to that? And. Not get confused. Mm-hmm. So that's how the effects of psychological abuse go so deep. Like even if you know the truth, it can create this pattern in your brain where you start questioning yourself, questioning what you know. And you and I tend to go back to. Seeing it as my fault. So I really have to push back against that and be around people who help me remember the truth and keep telling my, reminding myself of what's happened and this is real. This is not something that I'm making up. So how did you start the healing process? Us? Oh gosh. I mean, I think it's been a constant process of trying to put [00:36:00] myself around people. Like I said, who will tell me the truth and, um, about myself and about the situation and how God sees me. So I went back to counseling. Recently after Mending Arm mending the Soul Group ended. I realized I needed to be around people still, and I needed people to speak that truth. So I went back to counseling and that's helped a lot. Still listening to, voices that remind me. Of how toxic that kind of situation is, and that I don't need to stay in that environment. And also it's just, I think a process of acknowledging how much all of it hurt, acknowledging the damage that was done, and just the reality, letting myself accept the reality of the situation. While also taking care of myself, like mentally, physically, and all of that. So it's definitely, it feels like a full-time, full-time job sometimes just, trying to keep myself going in the right [00:37:00] direction. But I'm definitely, I feel like I'm learning about what I need and, trying to meet those needs the best I can. Would you recommend manning this all to others? What was your experience with the group? Definitely, yes, I would recommend it. Yeah, that was a first for me, being around other women who have been through abuse, and I think that alone is huge. Just being able to hear other people's stories and realizing that the patterns are the same, even though the situations are so different and the effects can be very similar too. And, and also the steps to healing and processing what happened are so good. So it's just that combination of community with people who have been through it, and also the path to working through the, what happened to you. Well, I'm glad that it was so helpful to you. I've definitely seen some changes in you from the beginning when you joined the [00:38:00] group and now. So that, I hope that's an encouragement to you. You seem so more confident and you recognize those red flags. You understand now what he's doing to you when he's talking to you. He is gaslighting you. He is narcissistic. He is being manipulative. You're recognizing those things, whereas you might not have seen those things before. Mm-hmm. And, talking to our listeners that are going through abuse right now, or maybe they just left their abuser, what advice would you give to someone else who's being abused right now? Hmm. I think that, I would say to take care of yourself, and to think about what you really need. That it is not wrong to think about. What you need and where you are at. I feel like a lot of times, especially in [00:39:00] Christian communities, we take on this idea that I think thinking about ourselves and what we need is selfish or wrong, and I feel like that kind of, that mentality set me up to stay in that situation a lot longer, than I probably should have. So yeah, just considering what you really need, and. Getting people around you that will help you decide what steps you need to take, to get into a better position, a better situation where you can have healing, and, and just to yeah, feel better. So I would say, yeah, take care of yourself and get people around you that can support you and help you make a plan. Very good advice. What would you say your relationship with God is like now that you've gone through some of your healing process? Hmm. It's definitely, it's good, but I do, I still [00:40:00] struggle with, Not putting the characteristics. And protecting myself from God, I guess I have a hard time, like not distancing myself, and so it's always reminding myself that he is safe, that he cares about me, that he's leading me through this, and that I can trust him. So it is really good, but it is a constant, a, a journey also reminding myself of the truth over and over so that I can keep coming back to him and not hiding. Oh, that's, that is so true. It is a journey and it's messy Sometimes it's, but God understands he's there and he's gonna be patient and waiting for you while you're still figuring things out and, mm-hmm. Awesome. So like we have a music segment at the end of the episode. I don't suppose you're sing or play an instrument or juggle or anything like that. No. I play the, but I [00:41:00] don't have it. Oh, how about a joke? You got any jokes, kid jokes, cheesy jokes? No. Don't have any jokes? No. Oh, well, no. How about, I know that you have one of these. How about what's a Christian song that really encourages you and that you just go to it whenever you're having a bad day. Oh my gosh. I think I mentioned this one during the group actually. Mm-hmm. I can't remember the title of it, but it's, it's the one, like, he's greater than All My Mistakes. Gosh, I wish I can remember who, oh, I can't remember the name of the band. But anyway, it's something about, greater than all my mistakes, and if you type that in, it should come up. But it's amazing and it just talks about how, it's just such a peaceful song to me and just realizing that he really is, he's greater than all my mistakes. The mistake that I made of being in a relationship with someone that's abusive. Mm-hmm. [00:42:00] Any mistakes I make with the kids, mistakes I make with putting characteristics on God that aren't him, anything that I do, nothing is big enough that is going to change his relationship with me. And that he's always there, waiting for me to, turn and look at him. So, yeah, I love that song. I'll definitely put that in the show notes for people to look that up. 'cause I did listen to it when you mentioned it the first time and it is an awesome song. Yes. But I so appreciate you coming onto the show and sharing your journey with us. You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me. So I hope you really enjoyed Ashley's story today. She had a lot of great nuggets to share with you, and I've heard her story before, of course, in a lot more detail, a lot more gory detail, but you can tell that she is an awesome lady, an [00:43:00] awesome mother who's gone through so much, so many challenges. Yet, the Lord has really blessed her life, blessed her kids. How did you feel about what Ashley said? Can you relate to any of the struggles that she's had that she's continuing to go through? You have a prayer request that you'd like me to bring before the Lord. I have my personal time with the Lord usually at breakfast time, so I'd be honored to pray for you. So until next week. Choose one thing, just once, small thing today to get you closer to your healing goals. Thank you and God bless. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you. Please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find [00:44:00] our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.    

In this episode, host Patrick Chavoustie is joined by Dr. Tyler Hales who shares insights many dentists overlook about the business side of dentistry. Learn decisions and strategies that can make or break your profitability, team efficiency, and long-term success. These tips will challenge the way you think about running a dental practice.Here's what they cover:– Why the business side of dentistry matters– How different dental business models impact your career– Common mistakes dentists make when starting out– Specialize where your passion and skills shine– The value of mentors and building your support team– Hiring and training effectively to grow your practice– Key takeaways and next steps for practice success ***** SPONSOR: – Omni Premier Marketing: https://omnipremier.com/dental-marketing/ CONNECT: – Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thedentalbrief/ – Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedentalbriefpodcast/ – LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dental-brief-podcast-564267217 – Patrick's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pchavoustie/– Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd08JzybKfNH0v12Q9jf50w WEBSITE: – https://dentalbrief.com/

If you're struggling to figure out your niche as a health coach, you're not the only one. In this episode, I'll help you get clear on what matters most when deciding who to work with. You'll learn: Why narrowing your focus can make marketing easier How a niche supports your efforts without boxing you in The three questions that helped me get unstuck A simple way to describe who you help and what they want You'll also hear a real-life example from a listener who asked about working with older men and wasn't sure how specific to get.

Michael Boyle is the founder of Mike Boyle's Strength and Conditioning, author, and a pioneer and icon of strength and conditioning.Mike generously guests to share his wisdom and experience about:-Should kids specialize early in a single sport-Who really benefits when kids specialize early-Is there a relationship between early specialization and injury-What does it take to become a division 1 college athlete-How important is youth strength and conditioning to long term sport performance-His thoughts on seeing former interns doing social media trend video-His thoughts on the state of the fitness industry -His thoughts on high level athletes and injuries-Guarding your peace online-And much more01:33 The Problem with Early Specialization in Youth Sports07:05 Sponsorship Message: Macros First08:13 The Tiger Woods Narrative and Misinterpretations11:36 The Importance of Multi-Sport Athletes12:50 Sponsorship Message: RP Strength21:55 Strength and Conditioning for Young Athletes24:34 The Responsibility of Fitness Influencers35:56 Starting Soft: Building Team Trust36:50 Fitness Enthusiasts in Sports37:08 Longevity in Professional Sports40:06 The Financial Realities of Pro Athletes49:03 Social Media and Blocking Negativity50:48 Embracing Technology in Training58:36 The Evolution of Functional Training01:04:39 Annual Training Events and NetworkingI've been putting a lot of time and effort into making these new episodes valuable for you. You can help me get these great guests and their knowledge in front of more people by:-Subscribing and checking out more episodes-Sharing on your social media (please tag me - I promise I'll respond)-Sharing with the friend you think of who needs this episodeFollow Andrew Coates:Instagram:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@andrewcoatesfitness⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join My Email List:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.andrewcoatesfitness.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get the RP App at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.rpstrength.com/coates⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - use the code COATESRPUse Code ANDREWCOATESFITNESS to save 10% off at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://justbitememeals.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Use MacrosFirst for tracking nutrition ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.macrosfirst.com/⁠⁠Go to www.knkg.com/Andrew59676 for 15% off your KNKG bag.

From the very beginning of trying to improve at climbing, we're told one thing: Work on your weaknesses. I've probably said this a million times myself. But I've also paid attention to what happens as a result of that type of instruction. And what happens is: we end up in this constant cycle of trying to determine what our weaknesses are and fix them. But there's a big problem with this line of thinking...   Read the rest on the blog! Watch the video on YouTube! _________________________

When is it time to hone in your already cemented BJJ skills? Or when is it time to study up on the latest instructional by Danaher? Or maybe you are worried about mobility, and wanna try out our program. We believe you can make some gains in such little time, but we'd encourage you to stick with it for longer than 2 to see some serious improvement. We answer is all in todays QNA episode...----------------------BULLETPROOF SHIRTS: https://www.fanwear.com.au/products/core-bullet-proof-for-bjj-classic-tee----------------------Leave us a question for the next QNA episode:https://bulletproofforbjj.com/podcast---------------------Increase athleticism, reduce injuries and build a grapplers physique with the Bulletproof for BJJ App. Start your FREE 14 Day Trial today:iOS: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/bulletproof-for-bjj/id6444311790Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bulletproofforbjj&utm_source=na_MedStay Hydrated with Sodii the tastiest electrolytes in the Game! Get 15% OFF: BULLETPROOF15 https://sodii.com.au/bulletproof

Something we love about working in the salon industry is that our careers are customizable. Want to work just one day a week? Specialize in blonding? Just do cuts?  Split your time between two locations? Have back-to-back clients or work some down time into your schedule? All of these things are possible. Coming out of cosmetology school, Kacie Mundell knew she wanted the opportunity to grow and learn more advanced color techniques, and she wanted to have fun at work. First she got an entry-level job at a Summit salon company with a strong mentorship program that shared her values. Then the rest was up to her. Less than a year and two promotions later, Kacie's a level 2 stylist at her salon company.  In this episode, Kacie chats with host Blake Reed Evans about the combination of guts, mentorship, relationship-building, and careful financial planning that got her where she is, and keeps her on the rise. At the time of this recording in 2021, Kacie Mundell was a stylist and color and blonde specialist at Herdis the Salon in Northampton, Massachusetts, and at Parker on Main in Greenfield, Massachusetts. Now she's an indepedent stylist in West Springfield, MA, specializing blonding and vivids. SUMM IT UP is produced by Andrea Muraskin, with editorial support from Tim Fisk. Follow Summit Salon Business Center on Instagram @SummitSalon.Follow guest Kacie Mundell on Instagram @kaciedoeshair_Follow host Blake Reed Evans on Instagram @BlakeReedEvans. His DM's are always open!  Follow Summit Salon Business Center on Instagram @SummitSalon, and on TikTok at SummitSalon. SUMM IT UP is now on YouTube! Watch extended cuts of our interviews at www.youtube.com/@summitunlockedFind host Blake Reed Evans on Instagram @BlakeReedEvans and on TikTok at blakereedevans. His DM's are always open! You can email Blake at bevans@summitsalon.com. Visit us at SummitSalon.com to connect with others in the industry.

Amanda Quinn is the Founder and Principal of Quinn Growth Advisors. She is based in Raleigh, North Carolina, USA. In this conversation with Peter Ryan, Amanda talks about her work advising BPOs on how to build growth and develop a sales pipeline. Amanda advises focusing on deep expertise and specialization, rather than claiming to offer every single service and excelling at none of them. How can BPOs compete and leverage technology to improve what they offer to clients? https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandaquinnmalach/ https://quinngrowthadvisors.com/   SUMMARY: Mark Hillary and Peter Ryan discuss the challenges faced by BPOs (Business Process Outsourcing) in the market, emphasizing the need for specialization over generalism. They highlight the inefficiencies of BPOs claiming to offer a wide range of services without excelling in any. Amanda Quinn, founder of Quinn Growth Advisors, is introduced as a guest who advocates for BPOs to focus on niche markets and develop deep expertise. Quinn advises BPOs to identify their strengths through internal stakeholder meetings and client feedback, and to expand by adding related services or industries. She also stresses the importance of charging for value-added services and leveraging technology to enhance service delivery.

Ever felt like you're good at a lot of services but wish people knew you for that one thing you really love doing? In this episode, I dive into what it actually takes to become the go-to person for a specific service in your area. Whether you're itching to specialize in bridal hair, lash retention, or killer brow shaping, this one's for you. I walk you through not just the mindset shifts but the actionable steps to carve out your reputation and do it with confidence, even if you're just getting started.I talk about how to position yourself like the expert you know you are (or want to become), how to build a reference sheet that makes content creation and marketing feel easier, and why consistency is non-negotiable even if you feel like you're shouting into the void. If you've been waiting for a sign to go all-in on what lights you up…this is it.What you'll learn in this episode:What's the first step to becoming known for a specific service?Why your social media bio matters way more than you thinkHow can you stand out in saturated local markets (without dragging others down)?The type of content that actually builds your brand over timeHow do you fight off imposter syndrome when you're just starting out?What messaging points should you be pulling into every client touchpoint?Hit play if you're ready to be the one clients recommend in local Facebook groups and to their friends. And if this episode resonates, come say hey on Instagram @lashbizbabes or @xoericaschram!Resources:Grab Your Free Social Media Content Guide: https://ericaschramm.kit.com/c85536608cLooking to grow your beauty business on social media in 2025? Let's talk! We help make socials easy for salons, spas, and beauty brands while still hitting your goals online! www.beautycorpro.comWhere We Can Connect:Let's be friends on Instagram! www.instagram.com/xoericaschramm

⚖️ Divorce Mediation vs. DIY Divorce in Los Angeles County | Los Angeles Divorce

Sam Primm scaled a $50M portfolio using the BRRRR method. Learn strategies for building teams, leveraging equity, and overcoming challenges in this inspirational episode of The REI Agent Podcast.See full article: https://www.unitedstatesrealestateinvestor.com/from-zero-to-50m-the-electrifying-journey-of-sam-primm-to-ongoing-real-estate-greatness/(00:03) - Welcome to The REI Agent: Mattias and Erica Introduce the Show(00:18) - Mattias Reflects on a Week of Illness and Erica's Support(03:43) - Meet Sam Primm: Real Estate Rockstar and Educator(04:06) - Sam Primm's Humble Beginnings and Journey into Real Estate(06:29) - From Modest Goals to Big Wins: Sam's Real Estate Evolution(08:36) - Understanding the BRRRR Method: Buy, Rehab, Rent, Refinance, Repeat(11:03) - Mattias Shares His Experience with Equity Lines and BRRRR(12:16) - Demystifying Hard Money: Practical Insights from Sam(13:46) - Building Teams and Businesses: Sam's Early Steps(16:31) - Real Estate Collaboration: How Agents Can Outsource and Specialize(17:52) - Why Sam Primm Hasn't Embraced Syndications Yet(20:48) - Finding Deals: Sam's Strategies for Consistent Deal Flow(23:47) - Scaling Operations: Analyzing Deals and Delegating Tasks(25:28) - Managing Growth: Sam's Insights on Team and Resource Expansion(27:34) - Navigating Cash Flow Challenges in Real Estate Investing(29:22) - Sam Discusses His Book, Own Your Freedom(32:16) - Recommended Reads: Books That Shaped Sam's Leadership and Mindset(35:16) - Closing Thoughts: The Power of Knowledge and Staying Steady in Real Estate(36:54) - Where to Find Sam Primm and Faster Freedom Resources(37:00) - Show Wrap-Up: Subscribe and Visit The REI AgentContact Sam PrimmFaster FreedomInstagramLinkedInTikTokX--Go to reiagent.com for more great content!

Breaking into freelancing or launching a side hustle can feel overwhelming, but winning your first developer project is one of the most important steps in building your development career. In this episode of Building Better Developers with AI, Rob Broadhead and Michael Meloche share proven tips to help developers land their first paying project—and do it the right way. Why Mindset Matters for Winning Your First Developer Project The first step to success is shifting your mindset. Rob emphasizes that you're not just writing code—you're solving real business problems for your clients. Think like a service provider, not just a developer. Your success comes from delivering value, understanding client needs, and focusing on outcomes. Michael reminds developers that while independence is part of freelancing, you still work for your clients. Listening, collaborating, and guiding them toward success are essential to building strong relationships. Specialize to Win Your First Developer Project One common mistake when trying to win your first developer project is offering every service imaginable. Rob and Michael both learned that trying to be everything to everyone can lead to frustration and poor results. Focus on the work you enjoy and excel at, such as: Web development API integrations Automation solutions Small application fixes Rob recommends starting with simple, high-demand solutions like landing pages or bug fixes. Michael reflects on how defining a niche helped him avoid projects he didn't enjoy and allowed him to grow his business the right way. Small Wins Help in Winning Your First Developer Project Rob stresses the importance of starting with small, quick wins. These projects help you build confidence, gain testimonials, and establish a reputation. Here's how to approach your first project: Take on projects you can complete within a day Deliver high-quality work with fast turnaround Gather testimonials or reviews from satisfied clients Use platforms like Fiverr, Upwork, or Freelancer to build your portfolio These small wins lay the foundation for bigger opportunities and long-term client relationships. Be Strategic When Winning Your First Developer Project Pricing is another critical factor when trying to win your first developer project. Rob and Michael offer this advice: Avoid underbidding to the point where you limit your future rates Under promise and over deliver to build trust Offer discounts in exchange for testimonials when appropriate Know your value and communicate it confidently Michael shares that early low bids helped him build relationships, but emphasizes the importance of aligning work with your expertise and long-term goals. Confidence and Clarity Lead to Winning Your First Developer Project Winning your first developer project is not just about technical skills—it's about defining your niche, delivering exceptional value, and building strong client relationships. Start small, focus on your strengths, and grow your freelance reputation one project at a time. Ready to take the next step? Listen to the full episode of Building Better Developers with AI for expert advice on launching your freelance development career. Stay Connected: Join the Developreneur Community We invite you to join our community and share your coding journey with us. Whether you're a seasoned developer or just starting, there's always room to learn and grow together. Contact us at info@develpreneur.com with your questions, feedback, or suggestions for future episodes. Together, let's continue exploring the exciting world of software development. Additional Resources From Side Hustle to Success Launch Your Side Hustle – Amy Harrop Interview Side Hustle Success Through Perseverance – Chris Myles Interview Side Hustle Ideas From Your Annual Review and Planning Building Better Developers With AI Podcast Videos – With Bonus Content

Discover the two paths every private practice PT owner must consider to thrive today: scale up or specialize. In this episode, we break down how to choose the right strategy for your clinic's success — and how to build a practice that's resilient, profitable, and aligned with your vision.

Ever feel like your messaging is getting lost - because everyone is talking about your topic? In today's episode, host Julie Hood shares how to stand out in a sea of sameness. These 7 steps will take you from boring and bland to unique and intriguing. Get the full list at https://CourseCreatorsHQ.com/237.   LINKS MENTIONED / RECOMMENDED   Start planning your Sept/October launches now. This gives you lots of time to pull them together! Need some inspiration? Get the Ultimate course Launch Handbook to plan your two-week launch. It's on Flash Sale pricing this week of only $37... https://coursecreatorshq.com/WHWElaunch   Join the Course Creators Launchpad to get your foundation in place! Join the membership. Includes weekly Live coaching. Let's figure out your best partner plan to get traffic and find your students. Jump in now!    RELATED EPISODES   E123: Super Easy Way to Get Unique Content IdeasE129: 6 Move-The-Needle Steps for Your Online Course BusinessE115: 3 Tools to Help Course Creators with Writer's Block & TrackingE112: How I Doubled My List with Giveaways Bundles and Summits KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR ONLINE COURSE CREATORS      Here are 7 steps to help you stand out (listen in to the full episode for more details) - Step 1 - Develop signature frameworks or methodologies.Step 2 - Specialize in emerging niches. Step 3 - Share your failures and lessons learned. Step 4 - Use ideas from other fields. Step 5 - Build a consistent content look, voice and style. Step 6 - Focus on outcomes and results you for your unique clients. Step 7 - Engage in discussions and conversations in your industry or with your potential students.  COME VISIT JULIE!  Get on the email list AND get the FREE Ultimate Course Creators Planner -  https://coursecreatorshq.com/2025PlannerPodcast   Get this free course -  Is My Course Idea Any Good? here -https://www.coursecreatorshq.com/ideaGoodPods Let's talk about this episode on GoodPods – https://CourseCreatorsHQ.com/goodpods (mobile only, download the app first) Website https://www.CourseCreatorsHQ.comYouTube  https://coursecreatorshq.com/YouTubePodcast   Facebook https://www.facebook.com/CourseCreatorsHQInstagram  https://www.instagram.com/CourseCreatorsHQTwitter https://www.Twitter.com/CourseHQThreadshttps://www.threads.net/@coursecreatorshq  Disclaimers  https://coursecreatorshq.com/disclaimers/ 

Are you feeling the pressure to have your daughter specialize in one sport or position too early? You're not alone. In this powerful episode, I sit down with Carrie Dever Boaz – a D1 softball coach, sports parenting expert, and leader at Extra Inning Softball – to unpack the truth about early specialization and how to navigate it without sacrificing your child's love for the game.What You'll Learn:✅ The hidden risks of early specialization. Why pushing kids into one sport too soon can backfire.✅ When (and if!) specialization actually makes sense. Carrie's surprising take on the right age.✅ High school vs. travel ball. Why BOTH experiences matter more than you think.✅ How to handle pressure from coaches, without becoming "that parent".✅ The power of failure. Why letting your athlete struggle is the best thing you can do.✅ Real talk on burnout and how to know if it's time to push through or walk away.✅ Carrie's top parenting advice and what she wishes she knew sooner about raising athletes.

Dr. Eric Phan is a pediatric dentist who decided to take the leap and go back to ortho residency after four years of practice. He developed an interest in ortho during his associateship and decided to purse being one of the few dual-specialists in our profession.Dr. Phan talks about the application process, why he chose to go back to residency, differences in personalities between pediatric dentists and orthodontists, and why he thinks adding an ortho skill set increases his value and will afford him a longer and healthier career. He also shares some tips for those listeners who may consider going back to specialize in orthodontics.

Baseball Hall of Famer Tom Glavine told parents and young athletes to stay away from coaches who want you to play only one sport year-round

We continue our discussion about youth athletes playing one sport year-round vs. multiple sports

▶️ Book a Coaching Discovery Call with Jaimie Robbins https://calendly.com/rri-coaching/coaching-information-call

The old model was simple: work 40 years, retire, live off savings. But in today's world, career longevity is the new retirement strategy. And that doesn't mean grinding away at a job into your 70s. It means owning things that let you work smarter, with freedom and purpose, for as long as you choose. If you're a content creator, this is actually great news. You already have the tools to build real leverage. Here's how: 1. Stop selling your time. Time-for-money income is a trap. Instead, own assets: a blog, podcast, email list, product, or community. These things can scale without more hours. 2. Build a personal media company. One platform. One audience. One mission. When you create consistent content and control the relationship (hint: email), you're building something durable. 3. Specialize until you're unforgettable. Be the best in a narrow category, not “pretty good” in a broad one. That makes you harder to ignore—and impossible to replace. 4. Think like an investor. Great investors look for compounding returns. Same for creators. Invest in skills, ideas, and platforms that grow over time. Don't just work—build. 5. Play the long game. This is a career that doesn't have to end. Think about systems, succession, and maybe even an exit someday. A true content business outlives its creator. And maybe most important… 6. Stay healthy. Career longevity only matters if your brain and body are still firing. Protect your energy. Sleep. Move. Create with purpose. ------- Like this episode? SUBSCRIBE on Apple, Spotify or Google. See all Content Inc episodes at the Content Inc. podcast home. Get my personal newsletter today and receive my free goal-setting guide today.  

On today's episode of The CLS Experience, we have a very exclusive treat. He's a world class keynote speaker AND the founder and CEO of The Speaker Lab, a training company for public speakers where he takes you from booked, to paid to speak, AND his insights will penetrate your soul. He's the best-selling author of 'The Successful Speaker' and the host of 'The Speaker Lab Podcast' – which provides tangible insider strategies on business tactics, speaking tips and more. With over 400,000 people captivated at more than 500 events nationwide, he's a veteran in the speaking world, and very few do it better. His dynamic blend of humor, stories, and practical insights leaves audiences both entertained and equipped with actionable steps for success. From inspiring students at Purdue University to earning standing ovations at national conferences and workshops, his impact is profound and abundant. He's just a juggernaut in all facets of life and a fantastic husband and father. Please welcome the transformative, charismatic, and handsome, dynamic and multifaceted Grant Baldwin.   8:13 - Specialize to Grow Your Business16:28 - Crafting an Engaging Presentation Strategy23:08 - Mastering Public Speaking Skills26:56 - Speaker Success Roadmap35:38 - Leveraging Speaking Opportunities for Business40:53 - Building Professional Relationships With Integrity45:50 - Mastering Speaking Tips for Growth52:38 - Embracing Wisdom and AuthenticityConnect with Grant Here: https://thespeakerlab.com/To join our community click here.➤ To connect with Grant Baldwin follow Grant on Instagram➤ Order a copy of my new book The Reinvention Formula today! ➤ Join our CLS texting community for free daily inspiration and business strategies to elevate your day, text (917) 634-3796To follow The CLS Experience and connect with Craig on Social Media:➤ INSTAGRAM➤ FACEBOOK➤ TIKTOK➤ YOUTUBE➤ WEBSITE➤ LINKEDIN➤ X

Ready to Specialize in Contractors? Take the next step in your professional journey and become a go-to resource for contractor clients. Register now for the Contractors RiskPRO course and earn your certification while gaining real-world tools you can use immediately: https://riskeducation.org/riskpro-contractor/ Focusing exclusively on risk management and insurance professional development, the Risk & Insurance Education Alliance provides a practical advantage at every career stage, positioning our participants and their clients for confidence and success.

40 Lessons from 40 Years Behind the Chair ✂️✨What if you could skip decades of trial and error and learn 40 game-changing lessons from one of the industry's most successful salon owners?

Prompted by the phrase "Common sense isn't always common practice," from Trevor Ragan of Learner Lab, Nate and Kris sat down to discuss five aspects of climbing where they see this holding true. This is the final of those five aspects: principle vs. prescription in climbing training.   This episode originally aired on March 23, 2018. _________________________

Prompted by the phrase "Common sense isn't always common practice," from Trevor Ragan of Learner Lab, Nate and Kris sat down to discuss five aspects of climbing where they see this holding true. This is the fourth of those five aspects: Training where you are currently instead of where you want to be. Starting where you are is an important first step that is often missed.  This episode originally aired on March 22, 2018. _________________________

Prompted by the phrase "Common sense isn't always common practice," from Trevor Ragan of Learner Lab, Nate and Kris sat down to discuss five aspects of climbing where they see this holding true. This is the third of those five aspects: should climbers generalize or specialize? There is a time to grow your skill set, but it can also be appropriate to focus on one aspect of it. But how do we know when to do which? This episode originally aired on March 21, 2018. _________________________

In this episode (38:55) In this episode, we tackle a listener's question: Can you excel in more than one agility venue? Specialization vs. versatility is a hot topic in dog sports, and we dive into the pros and cons of focusing on a single organization versus competing across multiple venues. You Will Learn How Jennifer Crank was selected to her high school's Hall of Fame. How different agility organizations have distinct course design philosophies and challenges. How major events within a single organization, like the AKC Invitational, Westminster, and AKC FCI Agility World Championship tryouts, feature unique course designs and competitive demands. Why competitors increasingly have to choose where to spend their time and money, and how to make informed decisions based on factors specific to you and your dog. Mentioned Episode 182: Choose Your Own Agility Adventure Episode 239: How to Pick the Right Agility Organization for Your Dog Episode 224: Defining YOUR Success in Dog Agility

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