Podcasts about tafur

The election is over and, is spite of Trump's clear victory, America remains as divided as ever. So how to put the country together again? Juliana Tafur, the director of the Bridging Differences Program at UC Berkeley, has been giving this existential question much thought. What all Americans need, Tafur tells me, is the compassion, empathy and humility to understand the other side. But, as I asked her, isn't that just shorthand for a progressive bridge building project in which the left defines the language of a reunited America?Juliana Tafur, the director of the Bridging Differences Program at UC Berkeley Her work focuses on strengthening social connections across lines of race, religion, culture, politics, and more, to foster a culture of understanding and belonging in the United States and beyond. Through partnerships, multimedia content, speaking engagements, and workshops, Juliana is committed to ensuring that bridge-building skills and resources reach people and inspire meaningful change. With experience as a social entrepreneur, workshop creator, Emmy-nominated senior producer, and award-winning documentary filmmaker, she has been working to foster human connection across complex societal divides for more than a decade. A TEDx speaker, she has led and facilitated speaking engagements and training sessions on bridging differences at more than 30 higher education institutions and organizations. Juliana is also a 2021–2022 Obama Foundation Scholar at Columbia University—a mid-career fellowship that recognized and deepened her work in the bridge-building field, expanding her research on intergroup relations, political polarization, and conflict transformation. She is an honors graduate of Northwestern University, where she earned dual Bachelor of Science degrees in Journalism and History.Named as one of the "100 most connected men" by GQ magazine, Andrew Keen is amongst the world's best known broadcasters and commentators. In addition to presenting KEEN ON, he is the host of the long-running How To Fix Democracy show. He is also the author of four prescient books about digital technology: CULT OF THE AMATEUR, DIGITAL VERTIGO, THE INTERNET IS NOT THE ANSWER and HOW TO FIX THE FUTURE. Andrew lives in San Francisco, is married to Cassandra Knight, Google's VP of Litigation & Discovery, and has two grown children.TRANSCRIPTKEEN: Hello, everybody. The easy bit's over! The election's finished, now the real challenge is bringing America back together. We always hear these terms from politicians and activists, but in practice, of course, it's a very challenging thing to do. My guest today on the show, Juliana Tafur, though, is somebody who's given a great deal of thought to bringing America back together, bridging differences. She is the inaugural director of the Bridging Differences Program at UC Berkeley. She's also very much involved in the Denver Foundation. She's based in Boulder, Colorado, and she's joining us today. Juliana, is that fair? Was the election the easy bit? Now, the challenge is putting Humpty Dumpty back together again?TAFUR: 100%. I love the Humpty Dumpty. Yes, we are broken. How do we come back together and mend those pieces while still acknowledging the brokenness, right? Yeah. With that analogy, there's a beautiful Japanese technique that aims to cover the fractures, but to cover the fractures with a strand of gold so that we're not pretending like the fractures aren't there, but we are making something better as a result of the recognition of those fractures.KEEN: Juliana, we've done a lot of shows about this sort of thing. In fact, I've worked with the Braver Angels group. I'm sure you're familiar with them. I have been to a couple of their conferences. There are more and more of these groups trying to bring Americans back together. Might one suggest that there is now a broader movement in America to bring Americans of different--particularly different political persuasions back together? You're doing it, braver angels are doing it. Many of the thousands of activists and hundreds of groups.TAFUR: Yeah. There is so many of us across the country that work tirelessly day in and day out, around elections and before and after elections to make sure we come together. And yes, Braver Angels is just one of them. I could certainly give you a list that you could attach to the show notes, because a lot of us are doing this work and it's good for people to know that we're out there and that this is possible. But sometimes it takes seeing it in action and understanding how to do it to really trust that you can do it, too.KEEN: Yeah, we've had lots of people on the show. I know you're familiar with the work of Eboo Patel. You've worked with him his book couple of years ago. We Need to Build: Field Notes for Diverse Democracy is another example of this kind of work. Tell me what you do at the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley. What are you doing that's different or unusual or unique in terms of bringing Americans back together?TAFUR: Yeah, well, at the Greater Good Science Center, we study the psychology, sociology and neuroscience of well-being, or what we'd like to call the science of a meaningful life. And we break the science to the practice. So we take the science of how to have a meaningful life or how to bridge differences, and we translate it in a way that is accessible to people to apply in their own lives or to practitioners to help others apply the science. And in the bridging differences programs specifically, we do this through a series of videos, multimedia pieces that we publish in our magazine, Greater Good. We have a famous podcast called The Science of Happiness. We began in earnest in 2018, I would say, gathering what the science said about how to bring people together across differences. And when we talk about the science, we talk about skills, science-based skills, from compassionate listening to finding shared identities, etc., that have been tested in labs, and we translate them in a way that people understand how some of these skills applied, how they worked in labs, and how they can then work also in kind of real-life scenarios and situations. So we have a bridging differences playbook that has 14 science-based skills for bridging differences. We have an edX course that's free and available for everyone to take that also disseminates some of the science-based skills.KEEN: Tell me a little bit more about yourself. You've been involved in this space for a while. You're also a filmmaker, so you're very much committed on lots of fronts to this. How did you find yourself? Is this a reflection of your own upbringing, your own experience in the United States?TAFUR: Absolutely, yes. What you had up first was the page from the Obama Scholars Program. So a few years ago, 21, 22, I was an Obama scholar at Columbia University--KEEN: And you were the founder, at least at that point, of something called Story Powerhouse. I'm guessing you're still the founder, although you've moved on in a sense.TAFUR: Correct. Yeah. And Story Powerhouse was at the company Listen Courageously, which was a workshop series that I took around to universities and organizations and corporations talking about the power of empathic listening. And I got to that through film that I produced and directed that brought Americans together on opposite ends of the spectrum across the easy topics of abortion, guns and immigration. And the inspiration for this film came after the 2016 election. I felt a big need back then to try to bridge the divide that I was seeing and feeling, very explicitly, for the very first time in our country. And as a Colombian-American, I was beginning to talk to folks in my circles, and I was feeling this this real sense of othering that I had never, ever experienced and wondering and questioning what was my place and that of so many others like me in our country. And that led to to Listen, to this film that brought three sets of participants across these really tough topics together to explore if they could see each other as people and connect on a human level despite their differences. And I had no idea what the outcome would be. I had documented their conversations across a period of time. And I was truly moved by what I saw. I saw that those who were able to connect at a deep, human level were those who were able to listen. So then, that led me to study and explore and understand the power of listening and understood that it was a field. It's an arts, but it's also a science and connected with practitioners, but also researchers in the field of listening. And one thing led to the other, right? As a practitioner and filmmaker in the field of bridging differences, I found myself going back to intergroup relations and conflict transformation and other subjects too, to really understand why. Why was it that my film participants had come together, and how could I then equip others to continue doing the same? Less from a "we know this is possible" and more from a kind of research-grounded way.KEEN: Juliana, some people might be listening to this and...whilst on the one hand being, in a way, impressed they might be scratching their head, maybe listening to you, you use the E-word all the time empathetic, which is quite a kind of ideological character these days. You talk about othering, you're funded by, or you were funded by, the Obama Foundation. Now you head up a greater good institute at UC Berkeley, People's Republic of Berkeley, which is a place I know all too well, I used to live there for many years. Some people might be listening to this and thinking if you scratch the surface of what Juliana's saying, is she suggesting that this is the progressive version of the greater good? And as long as you're in our camp and you use her words like "empathy" and "othering" and love the Obamas and spend time at UC Berkeley, it's fine. But when you start perhaps putting red caps on and talking about America becoming great again or not being particularly sympathetic to immigrants, then you're outside your world. How would you respond to that? Is that a fair criticism or am I wrong, or would one be wrong?TAFUR: Well, obviously, people's criticisms are their criticisms, and that's absolutely okay. And there is no right or wrong. I just want to say--KEEN: Well, there is right and wrong, Juliana, isn't there? There's some things are certainly more right than wrong and some things are more wrong and right.TAFUR: Yes, but we don't judge that. I think, you know, people are right to believe what they believe, vote for who they vote, and be who they are. And we start bridging from the place of: I see you, and I hear you, and I might not understand you, but that's okay. I still don't dehumanize you. And that's the spirit of bridging differences. And yes, I don't hide where I stand. Politically, I am more progressive. And I have been an Obama scholar. And I work at Berkeley. So all of that is who I am. And from that place, I bridge. I bridge from the place of this is who I am, where I stand. I still love you and I still want to get to know you. And I still want to see you. And I just want to say, given that I'm Colombian American and I lived in Miami for the last ten years, I just recently moved to Boulder, Colorado, to lead a statewide initiative here in the state of Colorado called Belonging Colorado to make Colorado a place where everyone feels like they belong. Thank you for popping it up.KEEN: Called Belonging Colorado.TAFUR: Yeah, in Florida, I mean, I've had friends and neighbors who don't think like I do, who don't see the world like I do. And I've appreciated that. And I have not excluded them from our circles, from trying deeply to learn and understand what is it that they believe, what they believe. So I intentionally have made way to understand our country and and to try to tap into, honestly, what at the end of the day, are people's fears of what we need. And I approach them from that place. When you approach others from a place of "we are all walking with our fears in our foreheads," we begin to connect with your fear, my fear. But it's all fear and it's okay.KEEN: You used the term "humanizing differences," Juliana. Some people, again, might be listening and thinking to themselves, well, the guy who just won the election, more Americans voted for him than the other candidate. It's quite a decisive election. He doesn't seem to be in the business of "humanizing differences." In fact, many of the people he doesn't like, he seems, some people believe, I tend to be sympathetic there, he's dehumanizing them. So. So what do we do in an America, where the next president is, or appears to be, very often in the business of dehumanization?TAFUR: Hopefully we take back the narrative.KEEN: What does that mean, "take back the narrative"? He's been elected. It's his narrative.TAFUR: It is his narrative. But as people I don't believe that everyone who voted for him is voting for the dehumanization. I am holding firm to the belief that people are good, and that people have voted for other things and not for that. And I want people who voted for him to still see that we need to humanize each other despite our differences. And I believe that they do. I do not believe people are buying into that narrative and rhetoric. At least not everyone. Some may. But I think when we take back the narrative, we take back the narrative of: yes, right now there's a winning camp and a losing camp, and that's okay. And I would hope that those in the winning camp also want to see across differences and are reaching out to humanize those who are not in the winning camp. And, you know, that is now that is four years. But our country perseveres and continues and we are interdependent and need each other. Absolutely need each other. More than this rhetoric, more than the divisive politics. Politics is just one aspect of who we are.KEEN: There are others. I mean, you acknowledge that you're a progressive. There are other progressives who are preparing to resist the new--what they see as a regime, some people even think that the new president is a fascist. What would you say to resistors, people who don't believe that it's possible to, as you would put it, reshape the narrative or seize the narrative, that that the next president is in the business of dehumanizing many people, particularly people out of America and many people in America. And it's just pointless and that they're going to fight him, they're going to fight him in the courts, and maybe even on the streets.TAFUR: I don't think that's the way. I don't stand for that. And I'm also trying to bring those people along. I think the only way out of hate, sincerely, and I know it sounds cliche, but it's through love. I don't believe in resistance in that way. I am for peace and I will continue to promote peace. And I know that that is hard for people in the far left to also swallow. And I know it takes time and I know not everyone is there right now, especially right now. And not everyone will be there ever. And that's okay, too. We understand that bridging is not the right thing for every person in every situation. We know that a lot of people who feel that their identity is in danger or that they're being disrespected might not be called to bridge differences. And that is also okay. I don't think this is work that you do by demand. And and we know that it's not without risks. We know that it involves exposing vulnerability. And we also know that sometimes bridging work takes small shifts over time. What we like to call small to large, or big, bridges. Sometimes you don't start with the biggest bridge possible bridging across the biggest divide. So we know that it's work that requires the right mindsets and skills and attitudes, and that takes time.KEEN: You've used the word bridge a lot, bridging as a noun, as an adjective. I seem to remember Bill Clinton was very much in the, at least the etymological bridge building business. He would always talk about it. Are examples of American politicians in the past who have successfully built bridges? I mean, Clinton wanted to, of course, he had his own controversial personal narrative that didn't help. But when you look back into the American past, who are the bridging presidents? FDR, Teddy Roosevelt, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, Lincoln?TAFUR: Yeah, those, and I would say, you know, yes, I may I'm totally biased because I am funded, have been funded, by the Obama Foundation. But sincerely, President Obama has taken bridging and pluralism, as he called it, as the work that he is doing, that he is centering on after his presidency, and he runs these democracy summits that happen once a year. And and it is a message that he deeply believes in and is trying to share with others.KEEN: Yeah, I mean, doesn't everyone bridge on their own terms? Obama campaigned aggressively for Harris. And in fact, a lot of people believe that Trump never would have got involved in politics had Obama not given him such a violent roasting at one of the White House correspondence evenings a few years ago. So isn't Obama an example of someone who bridges when they feel like it and when they don't, they accuse other people of not bridging?TAFUR: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I prefer not to get into politics. I do bridging differences work because I am equipping folks with the skills to be able to do this work. And I believe in humans. So so this is really not about politics for me. It never was. It never will be. I happen to be an Obama scholar, but I'd really rather not comment on what politicians are or not doing.KEEN: And I take your point, Juliana. But politics and the founders knew this, the politics in and out of America, is a dirty business. We pursue our own interests. Madison called them the pursuit of faction. That's why we have divisions, that's why we have branches of government which are designed to negate each other. Just as Madison so famously said, so profoundly said, "If men were angels (and he did say, man, he didn't say women as well, of course), if men were angels, there'd be no need for government." And I wonder whether...and again, I don't want a group for your movements or your thinking into one, but I wonder whether this kind of ambivalence, hostility, maybe even contempt for politics is problematic. When I think of someone like Michelle Obama, I have to admit I'm very, very disappointed that she didn't choose to enter into politics. She seems to be political when she feels like it. But not to participate in politics, she was probably the only person in America could have beaten Trump. Again, I don't want to turn this into a conversation about either Obama's. But my question to you is about acknowledging the dirtiness of politics, which reflects the dirtiness of the human condition, the fact that we all are, for better or worse, self-interested. Do you accept that Madisonian version of human nature?TAFUR: I honestly think there is a better future for us when we tap into what we can be and not what we are. And I know it's hard for many to do right now. And it's hard when what we see as reality is what politicians do. And I do see some examples of politics where people are coming together that I'd like to highlight, including Governor Spencer Cox. And he's led a national campaign called Disagree Better. And he's come on ads with Governor Jared Polis from--KEEN: Colorado, yeah?TAFUR: Colorado. And Governor Cox is out of Utah, Republican. Jared Polis is a Democrat from Colorado. And I think we need more of that. We need more examples of that, politicians coming together and showing how they are coming together so that we believe that it's also possible. So I'd like to  hang on to those examples in the political realm. But again, I'm in the business of what we individuals can do at the interpersonal level to begin to cultivate the right skills and mindsets, to be able to come together and at the inter group level with others.KEEN: There's been a lot of conversation, debate after this election, Juliana, like many elections, about why and how people should vote. Should they vote out of self-interest or for the the greater good? Lots of comments about many of the people vote voting for Trump seem to be voting against their own interests, particularly the new American working class. Whereas the coastal elites in voting for Harris seem also in an odd way to be voting against their own--certainly economic--interests by voting for her, in your view, to get to this bridge and this ability to be empathetic and converse with others, do we need to overcome our own self-interest, particularly our own economic self-interest?TAFUR: I don't think you need to overcome your own economic self-interests to bridge. Not at all. Because when we bridge differences, we are not asking honestly people to leave aside any of what they value. It centers on this recognition of, yes, common humanity, which I know is very abstract to a lot of people. But it is not about persuasion and it does not require you compromising your beliefs or values. It just requires the ability for you to recognize that anyone, anyone can teach you something, which is a term called intellectual humility. So, no, not to bridge. I mean, you may be putting your self-interest aside, or some of your self-interests, aside when you're voting for certain candidates. But to bridge, we are just coming together to see each other and to be with each other.KEEN: You talk about intellectual humility. That word again, humility is another fashionable word that goes with empathy. Is there, do you think, a religious context to this? Do you think some of these movements, maybe yours, maybe even yourself, it grew out of a religious tradition. A Christian tradition? Humility, empathy, love, understanding. These are words that are traditionally used in religion.TAFUR: Yes, they are. I will say that we have not necessarily emphasized or called attention to these character virtues and moral virtues in our work. We do talk about them a lot and we will probably emphasize them a bit more moving forward, given interest that we have in doing so, because we do think that when you talk about civil, moral character virtues like respect and curiosity and courage, you are meeting different types of people at different places. And at the end of the day, this is about becoming better people.KEEN: Say that again: this is about becoming better people. So, it's a moral movement. You're suggesting people need to pull their their moral socks up if we're going to put Humpty Dumpty, to extend this rather childish metaphor, if we're if we're to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, we need to pull our moral socks up. Is that fair?TAFUR: Yeah. I mean, we believe that cultivating these virtues is not just about overcoming current societal divides, but about nurturing a deep commitment to, for a lack of a better word, the greater good. This is what this is about.KEEN: I don't know how many jobs you have, Juliana. I'm lucky enough that I don't have multiple jobs, but some people, again, might be watching this and saying this is all very well. Maybe in some biblical fantasy land, we can all put ourselves out and be better people. But most people are really busy. Many, particularly, working class people who perhaps voted for Trumo, they're working 2 or 3 jobs. They're busy. They struggle to pay their rent, feed their families. Does this require to be part of your bridging movement? Does it require, shall we say, moral...concentration? Or could you do it...occasionally?TAFUR: Absolutely. You can do it occasionally. You can do it in the weekend. You can do it with neighbors. You could do it at a school board meeting. You could do it in neighborhood meetings. You could do it wherever you are. You could do it at work. You could do it with colleagues. You could do it with your kids. It does not require more than anything that you are already doing. It's just about how you approach those who are in your circles and in your life.KEEN: What's the most difficult thing? You do this a lot. You run bridging programs. You run a school, essentially, designed to help people bridge. What does the movement most struggle with? When you see people who are open to the idea and say, you're right, I need to be able to talk responsibly with humility and empathy to people who I don't agree with on the other political side, culturally, racially, and all the rest of it. What do people most struggle with, what don't they expect? What would you warn people about who are trying to get into a movement like this?TAFUR: We are very clear that if the other person is dehumanizing you, and if you feel at risk or threatened by this dehumanization, that you should probably be careful in engaging. So that's where we draw the line.KEEN: Yeah, but then you're shifting the responsibility to somebody else. I mean, obviously, if they're dehumanizing you, you wouldn't want to talk to them. But what's hard about changing oneself, that's possible, that doesn't involve the other?TAFUR: I think this just requires the commitment to want to do it and then the right skills. To engage with it in a way that you see works, that feels good, and that invites you to continue trying it out. And all it takes is the willingness to say, "I'm exhausted by this. This is affecting me personally." Because we do know that our divides are consuming us. They're affecting our health, our well-being. We also know our divides are affecting our families and our closest circles. We know that our divides affect our children in schools. So there are many, many reasons for wanting to bridge, for saying, "this is enough. I am exhausted." And if you are, you are not alone. Three. Out of four Americans are. 75% of Americans in the most conservative estimates say they are exhausted by the division.KEEN: Exhausted by just this endless controversy of people not being able to talk to one another?TAFUR: Yeah. Research tells us that three out of four Americans see political hostility and divisiveness as a serious problem and want to live in a less polarized country. So we are just trying to meet that exhausted majority where they are. Because we do know that people value diverse perspectives. Again, research points to this, and a desire to shift the political discourse. So we're telling them: we hear you. We see you. Yes, this division hurts us. Let's do something about it. Do you need some skills? We got you.KEEN: Juliana, I asked you about other examples from American history. What about models from the rest of the world in these kinds of conversations? You often hear about the the reconciliation, the truth and reconciliation movement and Mandela, South Africa. Are there models overseas, which Americans can learn from? Americans often aren't very good at learning from other countries, particularly in Africa. But is the South African model a good one, do you think?TAFUR: Yes. I mean, clearly, they were able to come together across incredible fracture and division, and they were able to persevere and collaborate across differences. There is also the model in Ireland that we can point to. There is division that is hurting countries across the world right now. And I know ,I come from a country that is deeply divided, Colombia. And Colombians have also succeeded in bridging the great divide. But there's been strides, through peace treaties and others, to come together despite differences. So we can certainly learn from other countries that have been deeply divided and in deep conflict and have come together. We are not in a place in the US where our conflict has turned violent, thankfully, at least not openly. We are seeing signs of violence, but we are not in the midst of a war (although it seems like a moral war in many regards.) And and I do want to point to the hope that countries who have been in deeper fractures about how this is possible and and hopefully also show us that we must do something before the fracture goes wider and deeper. And where reconciliation seems harder to do.KEEN: Juliana, you mentioned Ireland. One of the things that comes to mind in the Irish model is the role of citizen assemblies in bringing people together to talk about very difficult issues. You brought up abortion, guns and immigration, in the U.S., the three most divisive issues, probably abortion, was and maybe still remains the most divisive in Roman Catholic Ireland. But the Citizens' Assembly movement in Ireland addressed the issue of abortion, and that was the way for the Irish parliament to actually develop some some quite interesting new legislation on abortion. Are you sympathetic to rethinking institutions, political institutions, political organizations like the Citizens' Assembly? Is this something that you've thought about, researched, is it part of a greater good future?TAFUR: Yeah, I mean, I do think we need to re-imagine. I do think we need to take good examples, including citizens' assemblies and in understand what's going to work for all of us. We know what we're doing now is not working for all of us. What does it take? How can we bring folks together to the conversation in a way that is bringing us all together? So, I do think bringing a diverse group of citizens to engage in structured dialogue, learn from experts, and also deliberate over complex topics could be the way. Maybe that's what we need. Maybe we do need more public participation in the democratic process in a way that ultimately ends up shaping legislation. And it does align with our bridging differences program, right? And and what we promote in in bringing people in and fostering inclusivity. So how can we bring different backgrounds together in structured discussions so that we can move beyond these partisan divides? Because we do understand that some of these issues do provoke, I would say, a really strong emotional response and and also carry significant social implications for folks.KEEN: Juliana Tafur, you've you've done very well with, my rather obnoxious question. So let's end with an opportunity for you to talk about, quite literally, where we go from here. You have some articles on your website, on the Bridging Differences website about where do we go from here, after the election. Perhaps you might touch on 3 or 4 bullets--concrete things of where we go from here in in early November 2024 that can bridge America, that can bring us back together. What would you suggest that's doable, viable, can be achieved in the next few months?TAFUR: It's great that you point to that article. I was obviously part of a group of us at the Greater Good Science Center that was very keen on publishing this the day after the election to--KEEN: And now you're on--I couldn't resist this one, Juliana, now you're on KEEN ON. I'm sorry for that rather silly joke, but anyway. Go on.TAFUR: Yep, yep, yep. Well, let me just, like, run through a bit of what some of the experts and researchers who we invited to be a part of this article with what they said.KEEN: And that included Eboo Patel, who, as I said, has been on the show. So you put together a very interesting group of people to write this thing.TAFUR: Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, so Eboo is saying keep doing what matters to you and the world, and he's trying to get us away from this catastrophe mindset, and he wants to remind us that what you are doing is sacred and it makes a difference. And even if the world is going to end, he says, the wisdom of the sages says to keep doing your meaningful work, because that work is part of the saving grace of humanity. So that was beautiful. Scott Shigeoka, who's a bridging differences fellow at the Greater Good Science Center, is inviting us to practice curiosity as an act of love. And for Scott, he says that we must practice curiosity if we want to transform our fear and hate. And he's reminding us that curiosity is a trait that we are all born with, and it's the desire to understand others more deeply. Again, this does not mean agreeing with views that clash with your own, but challenging the assumptions that you have about people who hold those views. So a lot about interrupting prejudice. Jeremy Smith, who's our editor at The Greater Good, he's inviting us to work to promote your values in community. I'll go high level on some of these. Get to know other humans, right? Get out of our silos as much as we can and connecting across our differences. Dr. Linda Traub, who is a close collaborator of ours, is inviting us to be good neighbors, even, and especially, to those who are different. So those are just a few. Choose nuance, not outrage. So I do invite folks to go through this article and and hopefully a few of the golden nuggets of inspiration do stay with you, do motivate you, to do something. It's been hard for many of us to understand what is it that we can do right now if bridging even is the calling of the moment when so many are struggling to understand what this means about our country, what this means about the next four years. But I understand others are not and are celebrating. Regardless of where you are, I think in a few weeks when you feel up for it, I think the calling of our times is to come together and to understand, again, our interdependence. We must break this cycle of othering us versus them. That does that does not exist. Those are constructs that that we have created. But we are better and we are more. And we are one. And sorry if this sounds cliche to some, but that's what I got for you.KEEN: That's interesting. And finally, Juliana, you mentioned one of your colleagues talked about what they would do if the world was to end tomorrow, what they would do this evening. It certainly reflects on you. I know if I knew the world was going to end tomorrow, I would go to Kentucky Fried Chicken. But that probably speaks of my own unsuitability for your movement. What would you do if you knew the world was ending tomorrow?TAFUR: I would speak to you, Andrew.KEEN: Oh my god, we can go together to the Kentucky Fried Chicken. Well, Juliana, it's been a real honor to have you on the show. Very interesting conversation, we're going to get you back on because this--one thing we can say for sure is this issue is not going away in 2024, 2025, 2026. Keep up the good work, Juliana, and we'll talk again in the not too distant future. Thank you so much.TAFUR: Thank you, Andrew. Thank you.For those impressed with what Julianna Tafur is doing and would like to participate, here are a couple of ideas:* Ready to turn division into connection? The Greater Good Science Center's 7-Day Campaign for Connection Challenge offers practical, research-based skills to ease stress and create understanding. Reserve your spot: http://tinyurl.com/7DayChallenge24* Feeling the weight of division this election season? You're not alone! Join the @Greater Good Science Center's 7-Day Campaign for Connection Challenge, to help you navigate these polarized times with science-backed skills. Reserve your place: http://tinyurl.com/7DayChallenge24Keen On is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. 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Our 15th-century Spanish traveller goes home, mixing with the imperial elite along the way. If you like what you hear and want to chip in to support the podcast, my Patreon is here. I'm on BlueSky @a-devon.bsky.social, Twitter @circus_human, Instagram @humancircuspod, and I have some things on Redbubble. Source: Pero Tafur: Travels and Adventures (1435-1439), translated and edited with an introduction by Malcolm Letts. Harper & brothers, 1926. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Rob and Kelvin tell us if baseball fans will tell the Houston Astros ‘good run' or ‘good riddance' now that they're no longer the dominant team in the American League, debate which of Rob's world famous jingles has to go and take a trip out to Shekel City for Rob's nightly bets. Plus, The Athletic Las Vegas Raiders beat writer Vic Tafur swings by to discuss what led to Davante Adams demanding a trade out of town, which team makes the most sense in a potential Adams deal and much more!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Our 15th-century traveller returns to Venice and goes overland into central and western Europe, making friends and catching up with some old ones along the way. He'll heal at the thermal baths, and there's talk of Bruges, Antwerp, medieval trade and textiles, and the fairs. If you like what you hear and want to chip in to support the podcast, my Patreon is here. I'm on BlueSky @a-devon.bsky.social, Twitter @circus_human, Instagram @humancircuspod, and I have some things on Redbubble. Sources: Pero Tafur: Travels and Adventures (1435-1439), translated and edited with an introduction by Malcolm Letts. Harper & brothers, 1926. Abu-Lughod, Janet L. Before European Hegemony: The World System A.D. 1250-1350. University of Pennsylvania Press, 2019. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“La centroderecha no está midiendo a cabalidad el embalse de furia popular que despierta el statu quo, que ya no se centra solo en el sur andino sino en todo el país”

“El Perú transita por una situación en la que su potencial es enorme, las condiciones externas son favorables, así que si se hacen las cosas bien, los resultados positivos no tardarán en hacerse sentir”

“El 2026 no puede repetirse la ruleta rusa que fueron las elecciones del 2021, donde al final, el peor de los candidatos, el más improvisado -como demostró luego en el poder- fue el que triunfó”

“Ni al Ejecutivo ni al Legislativo les importa un rábano la impopularidad de la que gozan, menos aún cuando el país se ciñe a una relativa paz social”

“Boluarte no está emprendiendo ni una sola política pública que merezca fragor político. Lo suyo es la nada, la indolencia, la vacuidad absoluta”

“Nos va a costar muy caro esta indolencia presidencial. La furia popular sigue creciendo y si no explota socialmente lo va a hacer en el encuentro con las urnas, el 2026”

“Experiencias exitosas como la de Foncodes, la de los comedores populares, la de los caminos rurales, etc., deben ser replicadas a nivel nacional”

“Fujimori contó con un tándem de operadores de primer nivel: Santiago Fujimori, encargado de la convocatoria de cuadros tecnocráticos, Jaime Yoshiyama de las reformas económicas, y Absalón Vásquez de la microobra popular y el populismo asistencial”

“El desastre gubernativo de Dina Boluarte hace difícil que las propuestas moderadas se impongan sobre las que prometen patear el tablero”

“Antauro es mejor candidato que Pedro Castillo y, además, postula encaramado sobre una mayor furia popular que la que existía el 2021”

“Lo cierto es que pesar sus pasivos, entregó un país bastante más viable que el que recibió, que estaba al borde del colapso. El balance final lo hará la historia larga”

Hour 3: Talking NFL Week 1 With Vic Tafur, Around The NFL, 1067 The Fan Touchdown Survivor Pool

How can we more effectively navigate conversations with people who have different values, and beliefs than we do?Neighbors, community members, co-workers, and family members who care deeply about the same issues, but who have widely different views about them. What are the conditions that would be needed in order to have productive conversations? What are the intentions, skills and mindsets we need to cultivate? In this new 3-episode mini series we will  explore these complex yet practical questions with Courageous Life guests new and old. You'll be exposed to leaders at the forefront of researching, facilitating, and sharing their hard earned wisdom, about how to have constructive dialogues, find win-win solutions to our hardest problems, and build bridges across difference. As we move into election season here in the US, these conversations are particularly timely,But the skills and insights contained within each conversation are also timeless.Today we'll continue this series with our second conversation - a past episode with Juliana Tafur who is the Program Director for the Greater Good Science Center's Bridging Differences Program. Together we explored the art and science of listening in ways that lead to meaningful connection, deeper relationships, empathy, and can build bridges across difference.  Highlights include:A framework for compassionate listeningThe importance of giving ourselves and others grace while engaging in constructive dialogueWhy opening the heart across difference begins with tuning into selfDiscerning when to engage in constructive dialogue and when it's safer, and wiser, not to. The power of asking questions from a place of genuine curiosityLetting go of winning as a fundamental practice of effective listeningWhy listening is an act of courageThe importance of appreciating complexity in other people's stories, and lived experiences Ways to quiet the ego in tough conversations Interested in diving deeper into this topic? Check out the Bridging Differences Program for free resources including the Bridging Differences Playbook. Did you find this episode inspiring? Here are other conversations we think you'll love:Rediscovering the art of constructive dialogue | Dr. Mylien DuongIs curiosity a superpower? | Dr. Jud Brewer More about Juliana:Juliana Tafur is the Program Director for GGSC's Bridging Differences Program, applying her experience as social entrepreneur and founder of Listen Courageously, and as Emmy-nominated senior television producer and award-winning documentary filmmaker. Juliana creates resources rooted in science to bridge political and cultural divides. She also forges strategic partnerships across sectors—government, education, philanthropy, and public service—and oversees communities of practice, to ensure bridge-building skills and resources reach people and strengthen social cohesion across the US. As a Colombian-American devoted to listening to bridge what divides us (as seen on her TEDx talk), fostering a broader culture of belonging—through dialogue, connections, and understanding—is her life's mission.Support the show

Pedro Tafur ventures out from Constantinople to visit a sultan, an emperor, and the centre of the Black Sea slave trade. If you like what you hear and want to chip in to support the podcast, my Patreon is here. I'm on BlueSky @a-devon.bsky.social, Twitter @circus_human, Instagram @humancircuspod, and I have some things on Redbubble. Sources: Pero Tafur: Travels and Adventures (1435-1439), translated and edited with an introduction by Malcolm Letts. Harper & brothers, 1926. Barker, Hannah. That Most Precious Merchandise: The Mediterranean Trade in Black Sea Slaves, 1260-1500. University of Pennsylvania Press, 2019. Gregory, Timothy E. A History of Byzantium. John Wiley & Sons, 2010. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Un año menos de suplicio le restará posibilidades a los candidatos disruptivos, que prometen patear el tablero y, en base al malestar ciudadano, construir un país donde el odio y la venganza serán su signo vital”

“Anticipo mi voto: lo haré por aquel candidato de derecha liberal que sepa ofrecer un programa de gobierno y un equipo tecnocrático capaz de empezar a hacer reformas estructurales desde el primer día”

“En la izquierda ya hay varias candidaturas, pero ninguna tiene la base sindical organizada y galvanizada que tiene Lucio Castro. Más de 350 mil maestros alineados como un puño”

“Los candidatos de talante autoritario van a cosechar a manos llenas del statu quo de inseguridad ciudadana. Y ello será plena responsabilidad del que, ya hemos dicho, es el peor gobierno republicano que hemos tenido, después del de Pedro Castillo”

“Mientras no haya políticas públicas de, por lo menos, mediana aplicación, un cambio ministerial es un simple engañabobos”

“La dictadura de Venezuela no es la izquierda. Es posible y necesaria una izquierda continental profundamente democrática y que respete los derechos humanos sin importar el color de quien los vulnere”

“En países con democracia precarias, sin ciudadanía activa y con serios problemas políticos y económicos, como es el caso del Perú, se requiere casi una refundación republicana”

“La derecha, en particular, viene retrocediendo en criterios de libre mercado, formas democráticas y defensa de las libertades civiles. Está cada vez más bruta y achorada”

“Las cartas vienen jugadas en ese sentido. Por el lado izquierdo, un Antauro o un Bellido; por el lado derecho un Butters o un Álvarez”    

“Uno ya no sabe si está ante un cuadro de cinismo desembozado, o un estado de confusión moral e ideológica pavoroso, cuando escucha a la excongresista Indira Huillca”

“Una movilización beligerante de la masa magisterial puede ser el gran gatillador de la indignación popular respecto de un régimen que apenas tiene 5% de aprobación”

“Según Datum, al 43% le interesa poco informarse sobre política y al 28% le interesa nada, 71% a la que le resbala simplemente todo lo que tiene con ver con la política nacional”

“La última encuesta de Datum, señala que el 27% de la ciudadanía se identifica de derecha, 21% de centro y 13% de izquierda”

“La factura política electoral la debe pagar el fujimorismo. La derecha debe entender que su fragmentación solo ayudaría a que nuevamente el fujimorismo dispute la jornada definitoria que por justicia política no merece”

“Que no sorprenda si durante la campaña algún candidato que ponga especial énfasis en la lucha contra las mafias pueda ser víctima de un atentado”

“Hace bien la derecha fáctica y política en manifestarse irritada. El monopolio de la indignación por un gobierno chicha, corrupto, incapaz y mercantilista no puede ser de la izquierda”

“Hay que aguzar la imaginación para poder escribir diariamente sobre la política peruana y se corre el riesgo de tener que ser reiterativo sobre ciertos temas”

“Fondo y forma van a ser esenciales en esta campaña electoral. Mensajes y rostros nuevos pueden tener un nivel de aceptación gradual mayor que el que albergarían los envases tradicionales”

“El régimen chicha, mercantilista y lindante con la criminalidad que hoy nos rige, ha encontrado su punto de equilibrio y no lo va a deshacer por más que las encuestas lo descalifiquen”

“Hay que recuperar la plena democracia institucional y reconstruir el Estado destrozado por el chicherío reinante desde el 2021, la mediocridad más impune y la influencia avalada de las economías ilegales”

“Tiene que surgir un anti Boluarte desde la centroderecha. La figura del líder opositor que sucede al gobierno en curso ha funcionado en la historia reciente del Perú”

“Al primero que se dedique a colocar lugares comunes generales, lo descartaré. Quiero ver un programa detallado, como el que diseñó Mario Vargas Llosa en 1990”

“En medio de tantas tribulaciones políticas permítaseme esta nota íntima que espero anime a mis lectores a emprender la maravillosa ruta de la lectura permanente”

“Es el país de los Pedro Castillo, César Acuña, Vladimir Cerrón, Keiko Fujimori y José Luna Gálvez el que nos define”

“La derecha está labrando su propia tumba por dos razones fundamentales: por su inmenso desprestigio labrado en el manejo del Congreso y por su respaldo a la gestión mediocre y pueril del gobierno de Dina Boluarte”

“Luego de muchos años en crisis, hoy asoma un nuevo horizonte económico y deportivo que le está empezando a devolver una grandeza que nunca debió haber perdido”

Raiders.com's Eddie Paskal and The Athletic's Vic Tafur react to the Raiders' first unofficial depth chart and discuss expectations for the preseason opener against the Minnesota Vikings.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“La alianza fáctica del poder legislativo (Fuerza Popular, Alianza para el Progreso, Avanza País y Perú Libre) hace lo que le viene en gana, se distribuyen cuotas de poder e importa poco o nadaotra cosa”

“Desde los sectores democráticos y los medios de comunicación es menester repudiar a los violentos y tratar de acotar que este tipo de hechos se produzcan”

Our 15th-century traveller dodges catastrophe on the Mediterranean and drops in on late-imperial Constantinople, where there's plenty of seafood and the roots of Pedro's family tree. If you like what you hear and want to chip in to support the podcast, my Patreon is here. I'm on BlueSky @a-devon.bsky.social, Twitter @circus_human, Instagram @humancircuspod, and I have some things on Redbubble. Sources: Pero Tafur: Travels and Adventures (1435-1439), translated and edited with an introduction by Malcolm Letts. Harper & brothers, 1926. Gregory, Timothy E. A History of Byzantium. John Wiley & Sons, 2010. Byron, Robert & Rice, David Talbot. The Birth of Western Painting. Routledge, 2013. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

MLB Injuries, 13 Jordan Love Top QB?, 22 Vic Tafur Int, 33 Raiders Training Camp Talk

As our Castilian traveller makes his roundabout way toward Mt Sinai, he finds ill-health but lots of help on Cyprus, while around Cairo he's struck by the street food and crocodiles. If you like what you hear and want to chip in to support the podcast, my Patreon is here. I'm on BlueSky @a-devon.bsky.social, Twitter @circus_human, Instagram @humancircuspod, and I have some things on Redbubble. Sources: Pero Tafur: Travels and Adventures (1435-1439), translated and edited with an introduction by Malcolm Letts. Harper & brothers, 1926. Excerpta Cypria: Materials for a History of Cyprus, edited by Claude Delaval Cobham. Cambridge University Press, 1908. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices