Podcast appearances and mentions of laura anderson

Can religion ruin your sex life? This week on A Little Bit Culty, Sarah and Nippy are joined by psychotherapists and certified sex therapists Jeremiah Gibson and Julia Pastima—co-hosts of the podcast Sexvangelicals: The Sex Education the Church Didn't Want You to Have. Together, they explore how religion, especially purity culture and fundamentalist gender roles, can cause lasting damage to relationships and sexual well-being. From internalized shame to rigid scripts about gender and sex, Jeremiah and Julia explain how high-control religious environments affect intimacy long after someone leaves the faith. They also discuss the complexities of deconstructing religion as a couple, the importance of finding shared values, and why therapy can be a vital lifeline through it all. If you're trying to untangle your beliefs from your bedroom, this conversation offers both validation and guidance. This one's extra spicy, so listener discretion is advised. Resources mentioned in this episode: When Religion Hurts You by Dr. Laura Anderson available on her website. Sex, God, and the Conservative Church by Tina Schermer Sellers can be found on her website. Come As You Are and Come Together by Dr. Emily Nagoski is available on Amazon. To hear more from The, listen to their podcast, check out their blog, and visit their website. Also… let it be known that: The views and opinions expressed on A Little Bit Culty do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast. Any content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything. Nobody's mad at you, just don't be a culty fuckwad. Check out our lovely sponsors Join ‘A Little Bit Culty' on Patreon Get poppin' fresh ALBC Swag Support the pod and smash this link Cult awareness and recovery resources Watch Sarah's TEDTalk CREDITS:  Executive Producers: Sarah Edmondson & Anthony Ames Production Partner: Amphibian.Media Co-Creator: Jess Tardy Writer: Kristen Reiter Associate producers: Amanda Zaremba and Matt Stroud of Amphibian.Media   Audio production: Red Caiman Studios Theme Song: “Cultivated” by Jon Bryant co-written with Nygel Asselin  

In this episode, Laura and Andrew engage in a lively discussion with Janice Lagata about her experiences growing up in evangelicalism, her time at Hillsong College, and the importance of literature and financial therapy. They explore themes of banned books, free speech, and the influence of worship music on personal faith. The conversation is rich with insights and personal anecdotes, making it a compelling listen for anyone interested in the intersections of faith, culture, and personal growth.In this conversation, Janice Lagata shares her journey from moving to New York and joining Hillsong to her struggles with church culture, identity, and the impact of purity culture. She reflects on her experiences within a male-dominated evangelical space, the expectations placed on women, and the burden of not having a personal testimony. Janice discusses her eventual departure from Hillsong, seeking healthier communities, and the complexities of serving in church environments that demand much while often perpetuating shame. In this conversation, the speakers delve into the complexities of faith, race, and the intersections of capitalism and evangelicalism.They explore the trials of personal transformation, the cultural discrepancies faced by people of color in faith communities, and the problematic nature of church planting. The discussion also highlights the spiritual capitalism inherent in evangelicalism and the stagnation observed in deconstruction spaces, ultimately questioning the authenticity of new leadership dynamics. In this conversation, Laura Anderson and Janice Lagata explore the complexities of leaving evangelicalism, addressing themes such as embodied fundamentalism, the impact of capitalism, the challenges of grifting, and the role of privilege in ex-vangelical spaces. They emphasize the importance of personal responsibility, community, and self-trust in the deconstruction journey, while also recognizing the need for diverse voices and perspectives in these discussions.To connect with Janice, check out her website: https://janicelagata.com/ –from there you can join her Patreon, Substack, and hear about the other cool projects and offerings she has!This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at kevincrowe.co

This episode from the archives originally aired in January 2024 Dr. Laura Anderson is a therapist, trauma resolution, and recovery coach, writer, educator, and creator who specializes in complex trauma with a focus on domestic violence, sexualized violence, and religious trauma. She holds a Master's degree in Marriage and Family Therapy and a Ph.D. in Mind-Body Medicine with her research focusing on the experience of living in a healing body after sexual trauma. Laura has a small private practice in Nashville, TN, and is the founder and director of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, an online coaching company where she and the other practitioners work with clients who have experienced high demand/high control religions, adverse religious experiences, cults, and religious trauma. In 2019, Laura co-founded the Religious Trauma Institute with the goal of providing trauma-informed resources, consultation, and training to clinicians and other helping professionals who work with religious trauma survivors. Laura's first book, “When Religion Hurts: Reclaiming Your Life After Religious Trauma”, is being released by Brazos Press in Fall 2023. She lives with her dog, Phoebe, in Middle Tennessee. In this highly informative and revealing conversation. Dr. Anderson shares with Rachel her personal experience and professional insights from the specialized work she does with survivors of religious trauma. The two colleagues discuss the most effective modalities for religious trauma recovery and outline some important nuances that often get overlooked on the path to healing. Before you go: Rachel offers some common traits to look out for in high-control religious groups to assess whether or not the leader's intentions are healthy. You can find more about Dr. Andreson and her work at: drlauraeanderson.com/ All of Rachel's video lectures are available for purchase here: rachelbernsteintherapy.com/webinar.html To help support the show monthly and get bonus episodes, shirts, and tote bags, please visit: www.patreon.com/indoctrination Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link: www.paypal.me/indoctrination Connect with us on Social Media: Twitter: twitter.com/_indoctrination Facebook: www.facebook.com/indoctrinationpodcast Tik Tok: www.tiktok.com/@indoctrinationpodcast Instagram: www.instagram.com/indoctrinationpodcast/ YouTube: www.youtube.com/rachelbernsteinlmft You can always help the show for free by leaving a rating on Spotify or a review on Apple/ iTunes. It really helps the visibility of the show!

In this episode, we sit down with Tony Bixler, the President of Local Ocean Seafoods, a popular restaurant and fish market in Newport, Oregon. Tony shares the story of how Local Ocean was founded in 2005 by Laura Anderson and Al Pazar, focusing on sustainable, local seafood from the Oregon coast. He discusses the restaurant's changes to improving overall workplace sustainability and emphasizing the importance of supporting locally-owned businesses and buying local seafood. Not only does this reduce some of the environmental impacts but also supports ethical fishing practices and boosts the local economy. Tony's tips for finding local secrets in the food industry are also an important tool to keep it local. Learn about where the majority of Oregon seafood comes from! Local Ocean Seafoods Website https://www.localocean.net/ Facebook  https://www.facebook.com/LocalOceanSeafoods Instagram  https://www.instagram.com/localoceanseafoods/ LinkedIn  https://www.linkedin.com/company/local-ocean-seafoods/ YouTube  https://www.youtube.com/@localoceanseafoods ------------------------------------------------- This podcast is produced by Dirty Freehub, a nonprofit organization that publishes hand-curated (and great!) gravel cycling Ride Guides. Our mission is to connect gravel cyclists to where they ride through stories about culture, history, people, places, and lands with the hope that they will become involved as advocates, volunteers, or donors with organizations that protect and preserve recreation spaces. Our Podcast Channel  / ⁠⁠⁠The Connection ⁠⁠⁠ Our Ride Guides / ⁠⁠⁠Dirty Freehub⁠⁠⁠ Our Ask / ⁠⁠Donate⁠⁠

This episode features Dr. Laura Anderson, founder of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Dr. Anderson discusses healing from religious trauma, her book 'When Religion Hurts You,' and the challenges of maintaining relationships post-religion. We address internalized fundamentalism and emphasize setting boundaries and fostering consent, respect, and mutual understanding in healing journeys.When Religion Hurt You: https://www.amazon.com/When-Religion-Hurts-You-High-Control-ebook/dp/B0BW12SBFCCenter for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: https://www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/Andrew's LinksJOIN MY PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/4ndrewpledger Facebook Discussion Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1153866318625322/ My Substack: https://speakingupandrewpledger.substack.com/ Linktree: https://andrewpledger.mypixieset.com/links -Music: https://www.purple-planet.com *Some audio is regenerated by AI because of mispronunciations and/or recording issues Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Season 4: Episode 44 In this series, Mike celebrates authors. People who have a message and a story to share and who have done the hard work to get their message out there. In this episode, Mike interviews Laura Anderson, PhD, MA, Author of ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠When Religion Hurts You.⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Everything Numa⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Queer and Affirming Writer's Collective⁠⁠⁠⁠ Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery⁠⁠⁠ Dr. Laura Anderson Instagram⁠

In this crucial episode, we're joined by Dr. Laura Anderson to unravel the complex web of religious trauma and its intersection with political turbulence. We're adventuring into the realms of election anxiety, religious healing, and Christian nationalism, we discover challenges and pathways to personal empowerment and peace.What we're talking about this episode:Election Anxiety & Healing Trauma:How the current political climate exacerbates religious trauma and what it means for those caught at the intersection.The Christian Nationalism Conundrum: We break down the long game of Christian nationalism and its profound impact on personal and societal boundaries.Mastering Self-Care: Learn practical techniques for visualization, bodily awareness, and establishing emotional and physical boundaries, especially in tumultuous times.Navigating Family & Information Overload: Get insights on handling tricky family dynamics and shielding yourself from the chaos of constant news cycles.Embracing Change and Lightness: Amidst serious discussions, we find moments of lightness and strategies to embrace ease and joy in everyday life.Dr. Laura Anderson, author of When Religion Hurts You, and the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery have created the: Religious Trauma and the Elections Course: www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/holy-ghosting/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

This week on Mum's The Word, Kelsey Parker is joined by former Love Island star Laura Anderson to chat all about her exciting journey into motherhood. Laura opens up about life as a single working mum, the challenges she's faced, and how she's embraced her new role. From candid conversations about learning to love her post-partum body to discussing whether she has plans for baby number two, Laura gets real about it all. Plus, she's answering your questions in a heartfelt and honest conversation. Don't miss this episode!Tune in for a raw, uplifting chat about the ups and downs of motherhoodA Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Dr. Laura Anderson is a licensed psychotherapist, trauma resolution coach, religious trauma consultant, speaker, author, and educator. We talk with her about how when we leave fundamentalism, fundamentalism doesn't necessarily leave us, and its toxicity seems to manifest in other ways. Laura's links:Laura Anderson | Religious Trauma ExpertWhen Religion Hurts You (book)Dr. Laura Anderson on Instagram Want more? Check out our exclusive Patreon episodes here.Join the conversation and connect with other listeners here.All our links are here. Transcript of this episode is here.Doubting your beliefs? Have questions about changing or leaving your faith? You are not alone and Recovering from Religion is here to help.

In this special live episode of School Business Insider, recorded at the 2024 ASBO International Annual Conference & Expo Innovation Hour, we explore the future of school business and education with two forward-thinking leaders: Laura Anderson, Associate Director at Edunomics Lab, and Dr. Mario Chiasson, Director of Research, Innovations, and Change Management at District scolaire francophone Sud. Together, we discuss how school business officials must rethink traditional budgeting practices, adopt artificial intelligence, leverage data for informed decision-making, and foster collaboration with educational leaders. Tune in for key takeaways on how to drive change and innovation in school business.Contact School Business Insider: Check us out on social media: LinkedIn Twitter (X) Website: https://asbointl.org/SBI Email: podcast@asbointl.org Make sure to like, subscribe and share for more great insider episodes!Disclaimer:The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of the Association of School Business Officials International. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. The "ASBO International" name and all forms and abbreviations are the property of its owner and its use does not imply endorsement of or opposition to any specific organization, product, or service. The presence of any advertising does not endorse, or imply endorsement of, any products or services by ASBO International.ASBO International is a 501(c)3 nonprofit, nonpartisan organization and does not participate or intervene in any political campaign on behalf of, or in opposition to, any candidate for elective public office. The sharing of news or information concerning public policy issues or political campaigns and candidates are not, and should not be construed as, endorsements by ASBO Internatio...

This week, in episode 211, Jay Goltz and special guests Peter Koehler and Jimmy Kalb discuss the hottest new thing in succession planning. You may recall that earlier this year Peter was a guest on an episode in which he explained how he helped Laura Anderson sell her seafood restaurant to what's known as an employee ownership trust or a perpetual purpose trust. Both Jay and Jimmy listened to that episode and were intrigued. Both had questions for Peter. So we recorded a conversation in which we discuss what makes a business a good candidate for trust ownership. The issues we address include: Is this only for businesses that have a save-the-world type of purpose? How much does it cost to create an ownership trust? Can owners sell to a trust and still run the business as they wish? And perhaps the biggest question of all: What can go wrong?

Giovanna's guest this week is former Love Island and Celebs go Dating star, Laura Anderson! Laura opens up about being mum to 1-year-old Bonnie, balancing motherhood with her new job co-hosting Capital Scotland's breakfast show, plus, as a former air hostess, Laura gives Gi her top tips for flying with children.Laura also speaks candidly about the ups and downs of life as a single parent and why she now strives to live in the present. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this conversation, Dr. Laura Anderson, an expert in religious trauma, discusses the definition and impact of religious trauma, particularly in the context of purity culture. She shares her personal experience growing up in a high control religion and the effects it had on her. Dr. Anderson emphasizes the importance of recognizing religious trauma as a form of trauma and highlights the various ways it can manifest, including mental health disorders, physical issues, and relational difficulties. She also discusses the role of social media in the rise of deconstruction and the need for support for those leaving high control religions. In this conversation, Laura Anderson and Cody discuss the impact of purity culture and religious trauma. They explore the physical, psychological, and relational effects of purity culture, including sexual pain and dysfunction, guilt and shame, hypervigilance, and trauma. They also discuss the shift from a focus on religious freedom to Christian nationalism in the United States. Laura shares her hope for change and healing, emphasizing the importance of living fully and experiencing pleasure and relationship. She also mentions her book, 'When Religion Hurts You: Healing from Religious Trauma and the Impact of High-Control Religion,' and her work at the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. For Training: www.codyharman.com Instagram: mrcoachcody Email: trainwithcoachcody@gmail.com

The Final Episode of Season Five (and the final episode of Uncertain) is a very special episode. The Board of Directors of Tears of Eden interviews Katherine Spearing, reflecting on the journey of creating five seasons and 110 episodes. They'll discuss: What Katherine is most proud of during the past five seasonsHow Katherine has navigated carrying stories of abuse and trauma while also being a survivorWhat it's like working with a team and building community after experiencing abuse within a communityWhat it's like to pioneer bringing pivotal conversations into the public eyeHow being a woman has impacted Katherine's approach and experience calling out abuse And More! Featuring Erin Pickersgill, Nikki G. and Brad Klausman Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitionersSign up for Tears of Eden's newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing's upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/aboutUncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you're enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings [00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing and this is Uncertain. So today's episode is a special one. It's a little bit happy and celebratory, and it's also a little bit sad. This episode is for the foreseeable future the last episode of Uncertain. It is the end of an era, the end of a journey, and also the beginning of one, I hope. Is the fifth season. We're ending the fifth season. There are five seasons of Uncertain. There's also over a hundred episodes. That's a really big deal. I was planning to sort of end the season with the episode from last week with Janai Amon talking about the How to prepare for telling your story publicly in a safe way.I was really excited about that episode. I was prepared to end on that episode. And then I met with the board of directors for tears of Eden. Yes, we have a [00:01:00] board of directors. We are a nonprofit. All non profits have a board of directors, and I was really thrilled that they suggested, hey, why don't we do like a final celebratory episode in which we, the board, interview you, Katherine, about the journey we're on.with Uncertain. And I honestly was so in the zone of like, okay, I need to finish the season. I need to wrap it up. I need to get everything out. I need to do the promo and I need to do the recording and I need to do the editing and just kind of full on just work task mode. And so the fact that the board suggested, hey, let's do an episode to sort of commemorate and celebrate.That was really helpful. I really appreciated it. It meant so much to me and this episode meant a lot to me as well. This whole journey has meant so much to me. I'm going to talk more about it in the episode itself during the interview. Be sure to sign up for our newsletter, the Tears of Eden newsletter, so that you can stay [00:02:00] updated on everything that is continuing to happen with Tears of Eden, including but not limited to a book about spiritual abuse that I am currently writing and will be releasing next year 2025. Thank you all so much for listening. Uh, so before I start crying, I will turn it over to the board of directors of Tears of Eden.Here is the final episode where the board of directors interviews Katherine Spearing Erin: Will you like edit things? Oh, definitely. I'll definitely Katherine: edit it. Yeah. And I'll probably just kind of speak, speak openly, and then decide later if I care.you're gonna edit Erin: yourself. I'm definitely Katherine: going to edit myself. I probably edit myself more than I edit guests, honestly, because they're going to be going to be real about that. I was like, why do I say like so much? I say like so much. Erin: You like it. You like it. I like to say like, [00:03:00] exactly. Katherine: So can we have everybody introduce yourselves? Your name, where you're located, your pronouns, and what how you found Tears of Eden, and then what made you want to be on the board of directors aside from me coercing you into it?Brad: Nicky threatening my life. Erin: That'll do it. Nicole: That's because Catherine threatened my life, so I just was passing down the baton. Hey, Erin: I didn't get threatened. I feel left out. Brad: Well, don't worry. That means you saved on therapy bills. It's okay. And Katherine: we are not a cult. Nicole: No. No. We've had enough of those. Katherine: Nikki, why Nicole: don't you go first?Okay. I am Nikki G, and certified trauma recovery coach, and I specialize in religious trauma, cult recovery, and narc abuse, and I hail from the state of Texas. And [00:04:00] how did I find this safe space that I found that I'm in right now? Well, I met Catherine, maybe about 2021, I think and we connected that way, came on our podcast with myself and another coach.And We just hit it off. We found that we had a lot of commonality and our hearts were both centered on, obviously, recovering ourselves, but also helping those who have gone through horrendous forms of spiritual abuse and religious trauma. And so, you know, Catherine reached out to me, I think the end of 2021, and said, Hey!There's a board seat. You want to get on the board? No, she didn't say it that easy, but she was just saying, I would love to have you. I think, you know we hit it off well, and I think we have the same vision. And so I came on board. I remember her. I'm not going to do that now, but I remember her explaining to me how tears of Eden, the actual name came to being, and I just fell in love with that.[00:05:00] And she didn't have the strong army. And so I said, yes. And I've been on the board since the beginning of 2022. So that's my story and I'm sticking with it Katherine: and Nikki has been with me through many a trial tears of Eden related. Yeah. And it's gotten me through many things. Very, very grateful, and also runs the support groups or has run the past few support groups that we've done.Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful support group, support person, wonderful human being. Erin, you want to go next? Erin: Hi everyone so my name is Erin Pickerskill and I'm the, I'm an Episcopal priest in the Diocese of Missouri. And my pronouns are she, her I've been a priest for a few years and as I was training to be a priest, I was in England and had some of my own experiences of spiritual abuse and religious trauma.And as I was. Trying to find out if this thing was even real. [00:06:00] Found myself stomping around the British countryside, walking my dogs and listening to Catherine's voice on the Tia's of Eden podcast on certain and like just praying and wishing and hoping that I could find a community that would understand me and validate my experiences and ended up moving to St.Louis after that. And so did Catherine. So I asked Catherine if I could take her out for a coffee. And And thank her for all of the validation and comfort she gave me and probably many others. And then I strong armed her into being my friend and that's how I do friendship. And but it was just so great.And so then Catherine asked me to be part of the board like on a temporary basis and I loved it so much. Yeah, I just love being a part of this. community. Did I answer all your questions? Yeah, maybe that was about last year, Catherine, or about a year and a half ago. So Katherine: I don't remember, but also came on in a torrential season [00:07:00] of personal and tears of Eden nature.I remember when we both cried. I was like, I don't know. It was like, we laughed. Yeah. Erin: It was amazing. It was amazing. Yeah. To me, like you were, it was like meeting my hero. And Katherine: for me, it was just like, Whoa, we both moved here at the same time. Like, I did feel, Erin: you know, this story that I felt so, so scared, you were going to think I was so creepy because I messaged you and I was like, you're moving to St.Louis. So am I, let me get you a coffee. Like that is creepy. So I'm so glad that I'm so glad that you you took the chance and let me get coffee for you. Katherine: One day it was very special. And I'm so grateful that you're on the board. You bring so much life and laughter and fun and we need that desperately.And we ran into each other literally yesterday, yesterday. It was two days ago, one of those days at a coffee shop. [00:08:00] We're both at the same coffee shop. Yes. This Erin: is awesome. Katherine: Yes. I promise. I didn't Nicole: know you were gonna be there. Katherine: I didn't know you were gonna be there. You're like, I'm not being creepy. I swear. I was in your car route.So good. So good. Cannot escape Erin. No. She's always there. Erin: Oh, that's creepy. Brad's face is so scared. He's so scared. On that note. Katherine: Yeah, right. Brad, how about you introduce yourselves? Brad: Well, you know, I didn't know all that about Erin or I may have reconsidered. However I'm here. So my name is Brad. I short, brief history.I'm a former pastor of 20 plus years in the Southern Baptist church. I escaped with, with no hair, but I escaped and became a certified light coach about four years ago helping people that are deconstructing from religious beliefs. Ideology, trauma and whatever they may go through. My pronouns are he, him. I found out about [00:09:00] tears because of Nikki. Nikki and I met through Instagram discovered we had connection. And then she very bluntly threatened me to interview for tears. And right that same day that she threatened me, she sent me an application or something and said, you need to fill this out. And so with that began the process of, of interrogation, background checks floggings, you know, all that. I must say I was incredibly nervous meeting Catherine obviously the brains behind the operation. But I love tears. And the, the mission and the way in which this organization goes about providing resources and meet the needs of those that are, have, are struggling or have been struggling spiritually.And don't know where they're at. And so that's obviously one of my passions being who I am. I am currently pretty [00:10:00] busy because I'm in the midst of my clinical mental health counseling master's degree. I figure I need I need to replace my past master's degree seminary with something more relevant.No effect. No offense, Aaron. So you know, just a little, little me thing. It's, it's more of a me problem. So with that being said, I'm just excited to be here. I'm excited about this next step and tears life. Tears of Eden's life and what. The vision that Catherine has and what she's going to be doing next.So that's a little bit about me. No, just realize that I am the only male here. So, you know, just saying. Oh, he pulled the mail card. It's really hard for Nicole: him. Yeah. Brad: Oh, my privilege is showing. I'm so sorry Katherine: for you. Nicole: We're so glad that you're here. This is all in great spirit. Yes. I do Katherine: remember asking Nikki, like, he is [00:11:00] a white man.Are you sure? Apparently. Totally fair question. . Nicole: Yes. Katherine: No, we love that. I'm very grateful for you. I'm very grateful that you're on the board and grateful that you have been here. You've been through the support group with us too, and you're the champion of re-shares on Instagram, always re-sharing content.Mm-Hmm, super appreciate that. Yeah. So very, very glad that you're here. And I'm Catherine, she, her, and. Host soon to be former host of uncertain podcast. And this is our celebration episode for five seasons, 110 episodes. And. I guess I'll just announce that this is the final episode for now of Uncertain.That is why we were doing this episode, the special celebratory episode, Aaron's [00:12:00] idea. So glad that you had the idea. Cause I was just like, ah, we're just going to, you know, have a last episode and then we're going to be done. And Aaron was like, no, we need to celebrate. Can we, we need to celebrate Erin: you. We need to celebrate you.That's what we are here to celebrate. So all of you listeners, we're not just. Celebrating this podcast today. We are really intentionally reading it and asking Catherine, like returning the table and asking Catherine the questions about her experience over the last five years. Katherine: I really appreciate it.I'll just say that. Really, really appreciate it. Really grateful that you are, you had the idea to celebrate because it needed to happen. There needed to be just like a celebration and a, and a nice little cumulative ending. So I very much appreciate that. So thank you so much for having the idea and are y'all okay.If I just kind of surrender to you and you decide. What's next for the rest of this episode, even though I feel like the episode's already been awesome so far stories [00:13:00] like, man, why did I interview all of you? Erin: I would I would love to Nikki, were you making gestures? Do you want to me to me? You're pointing at me?Wow. Thanks. Okay, thumbs up. I'm gonna I'm gonna so gladly kick us off, Catherine. I'm going to give you a really easy. Easy starting question, and then they're going to get progressively harder, I'm sure. Sweet! I'm ready. Yeah, okay. And listeners, we did not ask Catherine to review or reflect on these questions beforehand, so these are all off the dub.100 percent improvised. Good luck. Good thing you're good at that. Okay, so listen, I would love to know, What is, as you reflect over the last five years of podcasting podcasting uncertain, what is a highlight of all of your interviews or, or like, what are you most proud of a particular moment? Katherine: Yeah, I was reflecting mostly on that this morning.I like [00:14:00] blocked out an hour and I was like, I want to sit with, like, go through all the episodes. I didn't listen to them, but I just like, Went through and like remembered episodes and took notes on things. And I think one of the things that I'm most proud of is, well, five seasons, 110 episodes, but also that we are exploring this topic that we are really pioneering so many different conversations.And religious trauma is in mainstream culture. We're aware of that as a Western culture, but spiritual abuse is still not a super mainstream conversation. And I think a lot of that just has to do with the culture and, you know, the United States itself identifying as a Christian nation and, and folks more comfortable with the idea that they experienced trauma, but maybe not so comfortable with the idea that so many things that we see as Christianity.As [00:15:00] normal regular everyday Christianity are actually objectively harmful and coercive and controlling and abusive and shaming and that conversation is probably still about five to 10 years out in terms of being mainstream. So we are pioneering. So many conversations and we're, and we've had so many public conversations already that are conversations that are happening.Absolutely. But we made them public. And some of the topics that we have addressed on uncertain are the first time that I am aware of that they have been discussed in public. I was just thinking about one of the episodes with Keanu Hadari about Asking the question was Jesus sexually abused and exploring that subject.Like I've never, we talked about a book. We were referencing a book up until then, like I'd never heard anyone discuss that or bring that into the public light or, or have that discussion of, is that a [00:16:00] possibility? Did that happen? Could that have happened? And so just the fact that we have just pioneered and been forerunners in this conversation, that's probably going to be happening in mainstream culture in like five years or 10 years.All of these subjects that we are covering is that makes me very proud that, that, that has been something that we've been able to do and explore in a public way that has been helpful to people. So that, that makes me really proud. I'm very proud of that. Erin: As you should be. What about over to Brad or Nikki for a question?Brad: So first of all, that was awesome. And you're so right about it not being mainstream yet. Even going through a master's degree in counseling, it's a hard topic, right? Trying to get that relevant. within the education system. So let me ask you this along those lines, and then this is going to be tough for you to answer.Okay. Because it's, it's broad. All right. Give me something or give us the audience, something that you were [00:17:00] dumbfounded to learn about, you know, Katherine: on these Brad: podcasts. Katherine: Everything coming to my mind has to do with sex. So any of the podcasts that we did about sex or purity culture, I feel like I learned something and I realized like how ignorant I was. and then came to the slow realization that I was kept ignorant on purpose, like it wasn't just like, Oh, I just missed that and sex education class.There was no sex education class. There was no discussion about. So many different things. So anytime we had like a sex coach or sex and relationship coach the sex evangelicals, Julia and Jeremiah, Lucy Rowett, Kim Cavill, I would ask questions of them, like in those interviews that like, I always wanted to ask, and I was just like, I need to ask an expert and I'm going to ask you in the context of a podcast interview, having no idea what you are going to say, because I actually don't know the answer to this question.[00:18:00] And so. That is what's coming to mind for me of just like things that I thought about a lot more afterwards and realize the power play in so much of the approach to sex and the withholding of information within the context of church,Nicole: Nikki. Well, I'm going to rewind back a little bit more and kind of shift. So track back five years ago. What's entered Catherine's mind to start on certain podcasts? Bum, Katherine: bum, bum, bum. Yes. This, this origin story is tears of Eden's origin story probably came before the podcast. And in 2019, I was still at an abusive church and.I started researching with the intent of like forming some kind of [00:19:00] more formal community for people who are leaving churches like this, because as I was going through my experience, I was talking to people all over the country, all over the world, and hearing similar stories to mine, so I just realized like, oh, My church is not the only church where this is happening.It is happening in a lot of places. And so kind of seeing this as a potential need and then wanting to find other people that were maybe already doing this and couldn't find a lot, but did find individual like Or one couple that was ran like a retreat center, like a recovery center for people who had left cults.And a lot of the folks who came through their center were from Bible based cults. And so the fact that they were naming that and working with that demographic of people, that was an episode with Bob pardon. That is. And the archived episodes that are accessible for monthly donors. And and I, I think about his [00:20:00] episode a lot too, because I feel like I learned a lot just from him, I think decades of working with this demographic.But I didn't really find. A lot of organizations working with this demographic, but I just had so many interesting conversations with people. And I just wanted a way to bottle up those conversations and share them with other people. And so that's where the idea for Uncertain came from of like, why don't I just like start interviewing people thinking, Oh, this will be easy.I'd had a podcast before. It was called Frank frog hunting and which I documented my dating dating journey. And so I'd done it before I already had a mic. So I kinda, I kinda knew what to do. And so I just started Begging, bribing, coercing, and threatening people to be on the podcast. And let me, let me interview them to talk about it.And there was a long period of time where I debated, like, do I want this podcast to be something that I put on my website and it's like separate from the nonprofit? Do I want to [00:21:00] put them together? Are they the same thing? And I don't remember. What led to the choice of like, let's make this part of the nonprofit.But eventually like that decision was made. I don't remember why. And, and connected it to tears of Eden as a part of tears of Eden. And it became a very pivotal part of tears of Eden for most of tears of Eden's existence. So I'm glad that that decision was made. I made the decision to keep them together.I think I was worried about the conversations being confrontational and potentially You know, inciting, you know, kickback or whatever. And I didn't want that associated with the nonprofit. I was like, Oh, you could like kick back against me, but don't, don't do it to the nonprofit. And I mean, they became sort of integrated anyway.So here we are. I love that question. Nicole: I'll go up to that though. Where did the name Uncertain come from? You might have [00:22:00] said this a long time ago, but for those who came in, like, let's say year three and on where did Uncertain come from? Katherine: Yeah, that came from a conversation at Coffee in Los Angeles pre pandemic.So it was probably in February 2020. I was at Coffee. Thinking about the podcast, I think I maybe recorded one or two episodes at that point, hadn't named it yet. Nothing was public. I was with my friend Alex and and so I was actually very specifically talking about the name and like, I don't know what to name it.Do I name it? Tears of Eden podcast, but tears of Eden doesn't sound tears of it. It doesn't sound like. podcast. And so I, I wasn't really sure. And she was like, well, just tell me like, what do you hope to do with it? And I just, I said, I just want to have conversations. And hold space for us to be uncertain about those conversations and not really have any like agenda and have to have an answer.We can just [00:23:00] talk and we don't have to conclude those conversations and we can just, just be comfortable being uncertain. And she was like, uncertain. That's a good podcast name. And I was like. Oh, it is a good podcast name. And so yes, Alex Scott, wherever you are is the reason that it is named uncertain. Erin: I love that.I, I remember like stomping around listening to those podcasts in the early days and, and loving the name of it so much because yeah, because I felt so uncertain and I felt like all the ground around me was shaking and just to be able to know, to like link into a group and to yourself and to your interviews that, that also was engaging with uncertain topics, you know, it made me feel so less alone.Yeah. Katherine: And that's such a pivotal part of the recovery process, I think too, because when we're coming out of fundamentalism, the, the [00:24:00] main marketing tenant of fundamentalism is. The answers, we have the answers, we will fulfill all of these answers, we will tell you how to think we will tell you what to experience and how to feel.And so the converse of that is being able to sit in ambiguity and uncertainty. And confusion even, and just kind of be able to sit in that and be comfortable with that and not have to have the answers and the onus to have the answers. I think is one of the things that will lead us back into fundamentalist spaces because we're looking to satisfy that, that angst that can sometimes be caused when we don't have an answer.Erin: Yeah. And so the opposite of being uncertain is being a learner or being curious, you know, and that, that, that sort of, you, you allowed us to be inspired to do that with you, which was, which is so awesome. I kind of, in the context of being uncertain and [00:25:00] having an uncertain posture I was wondering what did the medium of podcasting.Or even the doing of the Uncertain Podcast bring out in you in terms of strengths, and gifts, and interests, and passions? Like, what did it sort of highlight for you that you maybe before that hadn't been able to explore or know about yourself? Katherine: I love this question so much. It's like one of those questions.It's like, I didn't know I want somebody to ask me it, but then as soon as they're asking, and I'm like, Oh, I'm so glad someone is asking me this question. Two things come to mind. First is I learn. And I've only discovered this recently. I learned by doing, and I learned by experiencing some watching maybe.But I learned by an experience. And so having the experience of having an interview with someone and being in that conversation with [00:26:00] someone, I learned so much and I feel like I retained so much information in that way. Also, I think when I was in grad school. Every paper that you wrote, you had like a limit of how many personal interviews you could do as, as resources for a paper.And I always maxed out every personal interview. Cause I just really liked talking to people and learning for them. And so. When I got to do the podcast, it was like, Oh, that same part of me, like, I'm, I'm going to learn from having conversations with people more than I'm going to learn from reading their book.Even though I did read the books of the authors that I interviewed, most of them I I, I really learned more and solidified more in having the conversation than I did from actually reading their book. And so that was a better learning experience for me. And now people are like, you're a [00:27:00] like, Oh, you must have read blah, blah, blah.And you must have read blah, blah, blah. And you're like up to date on all of the literature, like not really, but I have talked to so and so on my podcast and we have emailed and we've had conversations through Instagram. But. Maybe you haven't read their book. But don't read, read people's books, buy books, support authors.I will say that if you don't have the money, ask for it from a library because they will order it for you and it will be free. That's my little plug for that. But that was one thing. And then the second thing, this is a little bit interesting. That I wasn't, this was something that surprised me. So when I was growing up in a very fundamentalist patriarchal world, and there were prescribed roles for women and prescribed perspectives of how women were supposed to behave and what a good woman was.I had a lot of people either directly tell me or passively aggressively tell me that I was mean or M E A N and or, or rude or [00:28:00] harsh or abrasive. They didn't cuss, but they probably would have called me bitchy if they did at a lot of people like make those comments about me, either in the family or in the community.And so I had this perspective from myself that I was just this really mean disgruntled bitch. But then when I would listen to interviews. And I would like get to re re listen to it and edit it, edit it. And I could hear myself after the fact. And there were particular times where like I asked a question and my memory of the question was, Oh, that was harsher.That was to redirect or, Oh, I shouldn't have said it that way or whatever. And I would like ruminate on it later. And then I would listen to it back a few weeks later. And I was like, Oh, I'm not. I'm not, I'm not mean, I'm not rude. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not all of these things that people had said about me.And it took like listening back to myself in real time conversation with some [00:29:00] distance to kind of shift that perspective of myself and sort of see some of that was probably just. Put on perceptions of like what women were supposed to be like, and I just didn't fit that ideal. And I knew I didn't fit that ideal, but I didn't know that that had directly impacted my view of myself, thinking of myself as like a mean.And rude person. Which I now know it's like, I don't, nah, that's not true. I have, I have mean moments for sure. Itchy moments for sure. But that's not who I am as like my character. And so had years of that being put on me that I got to undo in real time through podcasting. So that was a surprise.That was a surprise gift. Brad: So. If I can just kind of piggyback on that a little bit because I was going to ask you a similar question when you started going that direction. I don't know if people [00:30:00] completely understand what now follow this, this wacky train of thought. Okay. So you are obviously a female calling out religious stuff.Okay. Which naturally would create angst by people that are conservative.And you're faced with even in all those episodes, you're faced with calling out trauma and and stereotypes and all kinds of stuff that religion has, I guess you could say, impressed upon the minds of many people since they were kids.When it came to podcasting, how did you not only heal, but keep yourself healthy while going through those episodes?Katherine: Well, we first have to say, am I healthy? That's a, yeah. And I think that that's one of, one of many reasons why I think that the podcast is coming to a [00:31:00] close now is. The crux of my health is on the line and like my ability to stay healthy physically I'm having to make some difficult choices just for my own personal health.And there was always, I was always aware there was going to be a time like that it was potentially going to be more than I was able to carry. And so I think. That, that was always just a NAV, a constant navigation throughout the whole experience and dealt with so much imposter syndrome, I think with the podcast of just, I just remember the first season, every episode, every time an episode would launch, I would just.And I can guess and ruminate and all of the things. And I think always, it always came up in, you know, therapy, especially if there was like a particular episode that [00:32:00] really hit home in a specific way. Early on, there were some folks that I interviewed who, there was one particular, I was remembering that never an episode that never went up.So there were several episodes that never went up. But when I was remembering, we were talking about characteristics of a toxic church. And I think this was in season one. And as we're having the conversation in real time, the woman that I'm talking to is like realizing that she is actually in real time in a toxic church as we were doing the interview.And. Before the episode went up, she emailed me and she was like, I don't feel comfortable with it going up just like where I am and I put in my journey and all that kind of stuff. Of course, no problem not going up, but I was still in this like locked into this like I have to get an episode out every week.And, and so I couldn't get an episode out that week. And, and so I couldn't because it was like care for her or. Not get an episode out. I didn't have anything else in the lineup. And [00:33:00] I just remember just feeling like such a failure because I like, couldn't get an episode up. And now I skip episodes all the time.So like going through that experience of like, like, what is the definition of a successful podcast and having to. Define that for myself because it is a frontier terrain. And I was like, Googling some articles this morning about like podcasting and statistics and all this kind of stuff. And like, there's some podcasts of like how to do a podcast.And if you want to be a successful, you must do it this way and blah, blah, blah, as every industry has. And realizing that it is kind of like a create your own journey. You can learn from things that other people have done, but you really have to create your own journey. And I realized pretty quickly that because of the nature of the subject, how heavy it was and how many heavy conversations I needed to listen to my body.And if I was exhausted, if I was, if I was in trauma [00:34:00] mode, like I was, Working through something and the podcast wasn't something that was going to be help helping that that taking a break was necessary and just had to let, let go of the, the standard of, if you, you have it, you must have an episode out every week in order to be successful.And that just became less and less important. As I realized that. I'm also a trauma survivor, and I'm also a spiritual abuse survivor, and this stuff is going to impact me, and just being aware of that, not, not pretending like I'm okay, because sometimes I'm not.Nicole: I can understand where you're coming from with that. It's hard to juggle both, you know, sometimes, but that's another reason why we're here celebrating you, because somehow or another you got through it, and you know, you were able to do this for five years. And for those who may not know, and I don't know if I can spill the beans, [00:35:00] but she Catherine was really a one man show through the whole five years of this podcast, from, you know, obtaining the guests, obtaining the questions and the content, editing all of the episodes that you guys got to hear you know, hearing the feedback sending out newsletters.Catherine was doing a lot and I think I can speak for her and say this came from the heart. This was a heart effort, you know, and I'm pretty sure a lot of the listeners really, really appreciate that, especially leading the support groups. When, when I connect with some of the group members, a lot of them say they found out about, you know, spiritual abuse and really what they went through from listening to the podcast.So the podcast was not only helping people to find a safe space but it was a place, a platform. For people to be educated to really, you know, say, oh, wait a minute. I went through that too. That's what that's called. And so I just want to honor you [00:36:00] for, you know, the sacrifices that you made to make this be a real thing.That's been a lifeline for so many. And since I'm on that. I want to focus on the listeners now because you see the numbers, you see the hits and a lot of people have tapped into Uncertain Podcasts over the past five years. And if you're out there listening, we just want to honor you and thank you for sticking with the podcast and sticking with Tears of Eden and listening to all the episodes.We really appreciate you for that. But what is some being the fact that you have focused on the listeners a lot. It's not just about, Oh, I like this, this guest. Let me grab that person and put them on. It's okay. Where are the listeners now? We covered this in season one. Now we're going to cover this in season two.You've been very Intentive as far as how you want it to lay this stuff out. What are some of the messages or some of the themes that you really hoped in your heart? Dr. [00:37:00] Listeners would, would gain from hearing the episodes. What is it that you wanted them to really know and glean from the podcast?Katherine: Yeah, and I'm really glad that you highlighted that because I think that that is important. Concept to maintain when you're creating any kind of content is who is your audience? And I had to keep in mind, and I did every time I did an interview, Like survivors. And sometimes I would be thinking of specific survivors.I had had conversations with and questions that we had asked each other and would take those questions. Sometimes I would send out emails to like, if I knew someone really liked a certain author and they had maybe written a blog post about the author, I would like send them a DM. And I was like, . And so I would like send them direct message or an email and just be like, Hey, send me some questions.I'm going to email interview them tomorrow. And so like kind of keeping that person. In mind [00:38:00] as these conversations are happening every time, every, yeah, just like even how the questions are formed. And I think that the, yeah, just the reality that there are some conversations that we've had on the podcast that I really haven't seen anywhere before publicly.We did a, a podcast with Laura Anderson on anger, and I think I've seen a few things on anger and the health of anger in other places, usually in the psychology world, not necessarily in the, in the Jesus world. So but just having that conversation also with Laura Anderson, we talked about second wave fundamentalism, the idea of like, we leave these fundamentalist spaces and then we go recreate deconstruction spaces.Using the same principles that we learned in the fundamentalist spaces. No one's talking about that, like, right now. Like, we're having these conversations that are just, like, before, before it's [00:39:00] time, you know, coming, coming up We had an episode on forgiveness. That was one episode that I was really excited about the episode that we just aired last week that before we did this episode was going to be the last episode with Jani Amon about what if I get sued, protecting yourself when telling your story?There's not information about that out there. I'm not finding it like I've looked at at a lot of, a lot of it is just like having so many conversations with people and kind of piecing it all together. I don't remember the question, Nikki, I apologize. Where am I going? Nicole: No, no, I think you're answering it.Just, you know, what are some of the themes that, you know, you really wanted the listeners to grab hold of and you just said anger and you know what to do with that and forgiveness, which is what I call the F word when you start talking to a spiritual abuse survivor. So yeah, I don't know if there's any more that you can think.Katherine: Yeah. And I'm also thinking of just like the, the numbers if we're looking at [00:40:00] statistics of like what, what episodes were most listened to people wanted pragmatic, practical advice. Those were the episodes that people will listen to the topic based on the topic for something very practical and pragmatic celebrities.Most of our listeners did not care. Like I would have on like some big name person and think that it was going to get, You know, thousands of listeners and it got like a hundred and it was like, they don't care if the person is popular, like they were, our listeners were looking for practical application and practical advice for this season.And that, you know, definitely helped tailor The content of like, this is what, what people want and what they need and what they're looking for. Yeah, so that was really, really special to kind of have that connection to our audience of like, what this audience is looking for. And then also know, like, I am a part of that audience and [00:41:00] like, Oh, Kind of pulling from what do I want to know more about and who are people that I really want to have a conversation with.I'm thinking about Makoto Fujimora. And we just talked about healing trauma through creating art. That's also an archive episode available to monthly subscribers, but that conversation was so cool. And yeah, I was just like, I emailed Makoto, like, Probably like four times. And then finally he like responded to me.I was in line to get COVID tested and I like on my phone, got the email that he was like, Oh, I'm so sorry. I don't check this email very often. And I was like, he's going to be on my podcast. And so, yeah, so there was just a lot of conversations that were just kind of came out of like, what did I want to talk about and what was important to me to learn about too, as well.Erin: I just love how orderly we're doing this. There's like, on my screen, it's like Brad and then Nikki and then it's like so ordered. It's [00:42:00] so proud of us. Katherine: This organization is spot on. I'm very impressed. Erin: We did a lot. It's like we planned it, but we didn't. Exactly. Okay. I love that we're talking about actual podcasting.Cause when I was thinking about this, this interview with you, I was thinking about how important the actual Thing of like, the, the means of podcasting is and how you engaged with it and how it was somewhere different 5 years ago, really in the world podcasting as it is now. And my question for you about that, I kind of see you as someone who is in terms of ending uncertain for right now.The baton on. Oh, I love that. To someone or lots of people. Yeah. I don't know who they're, but you're doing that. I feel that too. Yes. I feel like you're making space and you're saying you know what you're doing. Like the responsible, beautiful thing of saying, I think. My time here now is [00:43:00] done, but someone else will come and take it on.So in light of that, in the hope of that happening, cause we would love for people, right. Like, yeah. Continue to engage with this stuff in this way. My question is what wisdom do you have for folks who are going to take the baton and engage in the intersection of, between spiritual abuse and podcasting?Katherine: Yeah. I think a lot of people feel pressure to start a podcast because it's just something that everyone's doing.And it's kind of like, if you have an organization or you have a business, like start a podcast and it's kind of something that people. I think maybe feel like they need to do. And, and so my first thing would be like, do it if it's something you really want to do and like, you're really excited about it.And like, for me, the, the excitement was having these conversations and getting able, being [00:44:00] able to bring them to people. And, and that was the foundation of the excitement for doing this. And so find out whatever your reason is for doing it and let that be. Your passion for doing it, but don't just do a podcast just because everyone else is doing it.Cause the market is saturated, not saturated with this subject. The subject is not a saturated subject. But yeah, do something that is exciting to you and you might have to discover that. As you're podcasting. And I think that that happened for me of like, I figuring out what type of guests I did like talking to and figuring out which ones I didn't like talking to and just kind of figuring out like, what did listeners, what were they enjoying and what were they maybe not super excited about?And so like, it's just like anything. Let your passion drive you and , and then be willing to kind of learn along the way. And yeah, those are some of [00:45:00] the, some of the thoughts that I had. Erin: No, that's brilliant. Thank you. Thanks for passing Katherine: it on.I like that pass the baton. I do really feel that way. I like, I feel like it is time for other people to join this conversation and carry this, this conversation through this. mechanism. Yes. It's time for other people to step into this. I do definitely feel that a little bit. Erin: Okay. So follow up question really quick in your imagination and in your knowledge of the field, who, who are they?I really Katherine: hope it's a woman. Erin: Sorry. Yeah. Katherine: Or a, or a minority person that had that lived experience. There's already a lot of white men doing this and, and I'm, I'm sorry, Brad, I'm just tired of hearing from white men. I get it. So is he, so tired of it.I am tired of this too. [00:46:00] Yeah. I just, I just feel like as I, I mean, I kind of went on a fast from. White men in terms of like, I'm not reading books by them. I'm not listening to their podcasts just to kind of, cause I just realized that I was still being drawn to the white male as a voice of authority and trust.And so I felt like I just needed to sort of detox and, and then just realizing that members of the BIPOC community members of the LGBTQ plus community, women. Are doing amazing work. Like, it's not like we're like missing something, with the absence of the white man, that we are, we're not missing anything.If we don't have the white male voice. Right now we just aren't so and so I just really hope that the folks who feel that and I think that as someone who like, that's probably my main source of trauma from the church of having gifts that were praised in men, but [00:47:00] because I was a woman, they were sidelined and silenced and shut down.And then saying, fuck you, literally. And creating a podcast where I sermoned and taught and did all the things that I wasn't allowed to do in the context of church and faced all of the imposter syndrome and all of the, all of the voices telling me that I shouldn't be doing this, that I was doing something wrong by doing this, that I wasn't qualified, that I didn't know what I was talking about.And, and recognizing that there are a lot of people out there that feel that way and maybe aren't talking. Because of that, because of that oppression and because of being shut down and silenced. And I want to hear from you. So get your mic and start podcasting.Brad: First of all, I totally agree with everything you said. Totally. Thanks, Brad. I don't even listen to white men. I don't even listen to myself half the time. But anyway right because I want to hear from [00:48:00] minorities. as well. And then they do an outstanding job on every podcast I've listened to, whatever have you, if it's not a white male, I actually enjoy it more.So that being the case and, and, and Aaron, that was a great question. And, and handing off the baton, knowing what you being considered for all my books, I'm reading school, a minority, Being female, right? What would you say to someone that's thinking about picking up the baton and going with it, that is not a white male, but has trauma from this?I mean, what, what would you like? You had mentioned about, Hey, people really like to listen to the practical application. Would you say to them to encourage them or to support them? I hate the word encouraged because it's flashbacks. Bible Katherine: hood. Brad: So what would you say to support them? [00:49:00] And, and, and picking up that endeavor.Katherine: What's coming to mind is just how deeply embedded fundamentalism was still in my body once I left. And it just took a lot of time and a lot of just like aha moments. A lot of times. In the context of a podcast interview. And so just enjoying that journey and I'm grateful that the podcast itself was called uncertain.And I said that word every time there was an episode, because I think it was just kind of like a subconscious reminder of like, just because you don't wrap up the episode with a neat little bow. To tell someone how to do X, Y, Z what's important is that the conversation happened. And you don't have to set yourself up as an expert in a subject to ask questions about it.I [00:50:00] like that. That's cool. I like that. You don't have to set yourself up as an expert in order to ask questions about it. Brad: That's awesome. Katherine: I like that. Brad: Yeah. Katherine: That's what I have to say.Nicole: Okay. Time to get a little vulnerable. I think I know the answer to this question, but I Katherine: feel Nicole: very Katherine: by you, Nicky, your voice is,I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being here Nicole: since we're on the topic of, you know, the, the time being passed and you know, more conversations around this topic, I just want to bring some reality to it. Because yes, it's helpful. It's informative. It's supportive to the community, but it's not easy. You know, like I said earlier, you've done a lot of this on your own and I'm pretty sure there's been some bumps in the road.So real vulnerable question within the five year span of doing this, [00:51:00] were there any moments when you felt like giving up and just saying, you know what, I can't do this anymore. And if so, how did you overcome it? Katherine: Yes, definitely. . I think there was a, there was a time a couple of years ago, Nikki were very much a part of that season.That was really, really challenging in. The life of the nonprofit and it really impacted me physically had a genuine trauma response. I think that was the season I both met Aaron and Brad in that season. So I was definitely like at the bottom of the bottom. And I took a month off from the Podcasts from the nonprofit just didn't check email.Didn't do the Instagram, didn't interview. And I really just sat with like this and like asked myself the question I asked my body, [00:52:00] cause I was, it was a physical impact on my body and I just sat with. Like just asking my body, like you have done enough. You survived abuse as a child. You survived abuse as a teenager.You survived abuse as an adult. You've experienced so much abuse. You have gotten me through so much. Like you are in charge. Are you ready to be done? Is this the end for you? Are you, are you done? And just like really wanted, and I was really, really willing to just say, if my body is speaking to me and telling me we're done.Like be willing to, to to end the whole thing and didn't at the time feel like it was time to close up shop. Didn't feel like it was over. Didn't feel like the journey was over yet. But I definitely came out of that. Very intentionally. I just started like writing down my hours for tears of Eden.And even though I knew I had worked so [00:53:00] much for tears of Eden, I hadn't ever written it down, so I didn't know how much and realized I had worked way more than I thought I did. For Tears of Eden. And so when I'm like getting to Wednesday and I've already done 17 hours for Tears of Eden and I also have a full time job and I'm also in school and I'm also doing other creative projects, I, I was like, okay, that's enough.Like that is enough for this this work and, and having to be just really intentional about caring for myself. And I think that that's something that every nonprofit leader has to navigate of like, you do so much pouring out to help other people and finding the line of like. Where are you losing yourself in that process?And I definitely think the physical impact of that challenging season showed me that I had. Like kind of [00:54:00] fragmented a little bit and, and needed to spend some more time just integrating and, and approaching, approaching myself with the same care that I maybe approached other people with and not something that is easy to do at all and it, and it isn't.And I think that's some of the reasons for the ending of the podcast here is just Again, being in a season where my body has experienced a physical impact and wanting to care for my body and also recognizing it's for the health of the nonprofit too, because if the leader of the nonprofit is exhausted and burnout, that's not healthy for the nonprofit either.And so it's, they go together. So that is yes. So how did you keep going? Well, I kind of did it, it kind of led to some overhauling of the system. And I think when you reach that [00:55:00] point of, do I want to keep doing this or am I ready to be done, that's a beautiful moment of just. Restock reassess. And I am not a fan of anyone doing something they don't want to do.And like, if you were for whatever reason you don't want to, I'm not a fan of pushing through that. There are times sure that we do have to do that, but it's a lot less than I think that we have been conditioned to believe, especially in religiosity. And I think that. The pushing, if we feel like we're pushing through and just making it happen, that we're not really in it.Just take a beat, take a beat five minutes, 10 minutes, five days, 50 days. Whatever you need to just kind of restock. Nicole: That's that is so good. Catherine. And it's real, you being transparent not just being podcast and running the non profit, but I just [00:56:00] think for survivors religious trauma survivors, spiritual abuse survivors and this, this is, this is gonna make sense with all this, but sometimes we come out of what we've come out of, and You know, we look for justice, right?You know, we were either sexually abused or physically abused and manipulated in these spaces and we want justice. And as I always say, we can't go march down to the local precinct and say, Hey, Pastor so and so did so and so, you know? So there is this this desire, this voice that is not witness, this grief that is not witness of what just occurred.And sometimes if we haven't stopped to process and work through that, we can easily go into the activism side. Of, you know, this is wrong, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but before you know it, we're in the activism side, then maybe the advocate side, and, you know, now we have a podcast, now we have a Instagram account, [00:57:00] now we're on TikTok, and we're saying all the things, not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but taking needed breaks to say, okay, why am I doing this, right, and is this harming me physically, is this harming me mentally and psychologically, to hold all of this, And then go out and be a voice.Sometimes being a voice and having a greater reach is by resting, is by taking a break, is by getting the therapy, working through a lot of that first. And then if something opens up, then go for it. You know, but I, I sell that to say, you know, how you handled the podcast in the past five years is an example of that.You asked your body important questions. You included your body and say, Hey. What's up, because we've been through a lot together. What say you and your body and the rest of your faculties were like, you know what, this isn't the time right now, you know, I will work with you. [00:58:00] So you can continue to do the work.But now you're saying their body is saying, It's time to lay this down. And so I commend you for that because sometimes this work, it can seem so enormous. It's like, but I got to be a voice and people are depending on me and who else is going to talk about spiritual abuse this way. And I've got all these topics that have yet to be talked about.So I have to keep going. I'm, I'm putting this out to the listeners, some of you out there since the five years you've been there from the beginning to the end and you've been inspired by the guest, you've been inspired by Catherine and you're like, I'm rolling up my sleeves and I'm going to do the thing too.Not saying don't, but sit with your body. I'm pretty sure your body has been through a lot, listeners, with the, what you've been through and spiritual abuse and see if it's the time, if it's the vehicle. Is this, you know, the format. You know, really consider that. And don't leave your [00:59:00] body behind. Nobody's left behind.Can I say that? Don't leave your body behind, don, your body behind the work. Katherine: That's the title of this Nicole: episode. That's I didn't wanna get. Don't leave your body behind because your body is an integral part of the healing. You know, it's not just our soul, it's not just our spirit, but the trauma is in our bodies and it has a voice and wants to speak to.So I say that to say, Catherine, thank you for listening to your body. Of course, we will miss you on the podcast streets, but we have five seasons to go and rewind and listen to. And we are grateful for you and what you're doing for yourself and for the nonprofit. Katherine: Thank you, Nikki. I appreciate it. And I do think that the like that, the episodes, like, they're not, I don't think that they're time sensitive episodes.I think like those resources are still accessible and they'll still be on the podcast, still be on the [01:00:00] website. And now they'll still be on Apple podcasts and Spotify. And so they're not. Episodes, I don't feel like most of them are episodes where they're like, Oh, they're only relevant for this certain season.I think that a lot of these, these are like active resources that are going to be continue to be available. And I feel very good about. What resources we've created through this podcast. And I'm very happy that they will still be there. So it's like, we're ending the podcast, but this, this creation still exists.I appreciate that. Thank you, Erin: In the light of what Nikki was talking about in terms of you grounding in your body and really knowing yourself and being able to. like bend to the decision your body is making at different points. I am making a huge assumption in this question that you have loved working with the three of us.[01:01:00] That it has been a joy for you. And I'm saying that because it's been a joy for me. And so as I've been And it's like a true joy, you know, like when joy is real joy and you know that because it becomes a source of healing so my question, it's true. And so my question is about like what's, how do you reflect on, you know, Working alone versus working in a team, what does it mean for you to have a team?What do you yeah, just like, how do you reflect? I, I, I guess I asked that because I see a lot of folks coming from places of great hurt in community and religious communities and wanting to take it alone and wanting to go solo and wanting to be Mavericks. And I. Validate that, you know, that needs to [01:02:00] happen for safety.How do you reflect though on finding people who you can work with who are safe and how do you do that? You do that discerning and how do you do that work? Katherine: Yeah. Whew. There's a lot there. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, and I think of like, yeah, like, and I think of like the idea of like wanting to do it alone and needing to do it alone and like, yeah, that is a season that some people needed to go through. I think it's really scary. And I think that some of the earlier renditions of tears of Eden, the team wasn't great. And the early people that were involved, I'm not all of them, but a lot of the earlier people.And I think. Some of that was just like where I was, I was so just out of fundamentalism. And so I picked people who were still in fundamentalism. And so some of those same toxic you know, relational dynamics [01:03:00] still existed within that context of just like passive aggressiveness and, you know, pretending that everything was fine, but you know, it's not.And, and some of that stuff. And so I think that was some of the. What led to the, do I want to keep doing this? And, and having a good team is so important for enjoying the experience. Oh my gosh, it's so important. But we don't always have the resources to have a good team, to build a good team, to choose a good team.And, and Some of that is not our fault, like we've been infused with really toxic ways of interacting with people. And, and so, and sometimes we just don't feel safe in community. I know that that was hard for me when I started taking like classes, improv classes. And, and being a part of a class and seeing the same people every week, it felt a little bit like going to church.And I was, I [01:04:00] had a lot of just like anxiety about just being a part of a group that I saw consistently. And it's sometimes easier to not have that and just have like some one off relationships and kind of go solo because a group and a community and a team could feel really activating. And that's not bad.And it's also not our fault if we feel that way. And it actually probably means that we were hurt in the context of the community and that's a real thing. So not an answer to the question, I don't think, but just some thoughts. No, it was the answer because I just Erin: asked you to reflect and you did. And so, yeah, thank you so much.I won. Yeah, you definitely won.Brad: This isn't so much a question. It's just a observation of how you answered Nikki's question. By the way, I've been absolutely dumbfounded by the awesome questions of the [01:05:00] board. I think you ladies have done amazing with your questions. Think that your self awareness is head and shoulders above many people I, I meet.And the reason I say that is within organized religion, people in leadership are taught to the plow through to continue on to push through to it's all for Jesus, right? I mean, like, leave it here because you get the party later or worship later. I mean, like, you know, it's it's a focus on the afterlife more than it is on being healthy here.I would, I would argue you being able to. Look and step back and say, no, I'm not going to follow that pattern. I think is something a lot of people miss within themselves, because when they leave organized religion, they adhere to those patterns. They just switch it into a different avenue. [01:06:00] Right. But you go, no, I'm going to make sure that pattern never becomes a part of my life.Nicole: And Brad: so I just wanted to commend you on your self awareness and recognizing that and something that we all can learn because I've seen people on Instagram that they are trying to heal, but they go from one extreme and religion to fighting and doing the same thing. That they were doing religion against religion, the same methods and everything, and they never heal, but you show healing.And so I just appreciate that. And I appreciate that vulnerability, that display of wisdom. Katherine: That means so much. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Nicole: , Brad, you brought up some great points and, you know, I think we can all look at that and, and look at, like I said, Catherine's example of, Hey, you know, I want to take care of me in the midst of [01:07:00] trying to help others. I don't want to lose myself. As I'm helping others, you know I heard someone often say there's enough trauma in the world for everybody to have a place to, to try to help and work and see people recover, but not at the expense of us, you know, losing ourselves.So as we're, as we're winding down. I think, you know, speaking on behalf of the board and the listeners like I said earlier, we're just honored for your sacrifice over these past five years. You know, even the times you had to stay up late or you lost some sleep or, you know, like the times you were ready to give up.We're grateful that you didn't in the five years. And even now, we don't look at this as a giving up. This is a necessary ending, both for you physically, mentally, emotionally. and professionally. You know, thank you for what you have done to help so many, so many survivors out there and podcast world.If there was one last message that you could [01:08:00] give the listeners the guests that may still be listening, even though they were guests at one point, what would you say? What would you leave? And this last episode to, to the listeners out there. Katherine: And it's okay to cryYeah. I think I think, I mean maybe I'll just talk to myself of just like , just like, just hang out here. Like, just stay present. Enjoy this moment. We didn't talk about the future. And I think that that's good. Like we don't have to, we don't have to end this, but don't worry. We have all of these wonderful things coming.Like we can, we can just be in this place. So, you know, saying goodbye, ending a season, celebrating. Being together, being present, reflecting, and that's enough. We don't have to come up with a grand vision and plan for [01:09:00] right now. That's that's at the board meeting in August, for now we could just be present and I think for anyone who is listening, whether you're joining us, just For the first time, maybe, or you have been an active listener or you are a friend that I have texted this episode too, because I want you to listen to it.That it's, if there's some sadness associated with this, there's some sadness for me. Absolutely. Like judge, we can just kind of hang out with that and hang out with those emotions and that feeling, and we don't have to do anything with it. You can just be. That's what I'm feeling right now.Nicole: Okay. Well, we love that. Just being, it might be foreign to us coming out of the spaces we've come out of, you know, Brad, I love Aaron's face. I wish I Katherine: could capture that in audio. I didn't Nicole: see it. I didn't see Erin: it. It's so good. That was so good. No, [01:10:00] Nicole: I'm, you know, like Brad just said, we're always in the futuristic, you know, it's very hard for us to be in the present, but I like what you're saying, Catherine, you know, just be.And, you know, even though Catherine didn't go into what we, what we're doing next. I will, I personally encourage the listeners, if you've not joined to be a monthly subscriber and you know, you came in listening to the podcast season three, season four, or maybe even season five maybe you can go back and, and, and, you know, become a subscriber to support tears of Eden.We're doing a lot of shifting because we want tears of Eden to be here for the long haul. But there are a lot of great episodes back in the archive episodes that like, you know, Catherine said they're timeless. So wherever you are in your journey, I'm pretty sure you can glean from a lot of stuff that was poured out in those podcasts.So think about it, think about becoming a monthly subscriber. It will support the work, but it will also [01:11:00] support you at the same time. Brad, Aaron, anything you want to leave the listeners with. As we get ready to close out. Brad: Well, white man has talked enough. Katherine: That's another good title for the episode. Nicole: That's it. Done. Done. Erin: I never have talked enough. I have one more thing to say. The, the word that comes to my mind listening to you all today is gift. Keep thinking about you being a gift to this space and the, what wider world of spiritual abuse and, and religious trauma, Katherine.And what I also hear you say is that doing the podcast has been a gift to you. There's been something at moments whe

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This is one of the most important and practical episodes you will likely ever listen to! As more people speak out publicly, sharing their stories of abuse in the church, more and more churches, denominations, and pastors are growing litigious, further abusing victims in civil court. If you're thinking of going public with your story, LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE! Featuring Jenai Auman, author of the recently released book Othered. We'll Cover: Question to ask yourself before going public with your storyThings to consider before going publicTips to mitigate your riskHOW to prepare IF you get suedWhat to expect from lawyersAnd More* Disclaimer: This is NOT legal Advice! * Read this article, written by Jenai, that inspired Katherine to ask her to talk about this on the podcast. This is seriously one episode Katherine has REALLY wanted to do. Jenai wrote a companion article with examples of corroboration here. Jenai Auman is a Filipina American writer, artist, and author of Othered. She draws from her experience and education to write on healing, hope, and holistic spiritual formation practices.Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitionersSign up for Tears of Eden's newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing's upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/aboutUncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you're enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing and this is Uncertain.Starting in April of this year, I began partnering with Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, working as a practitioner for this organization. This organization's CEO is Dr. Laura Anderson. You may be familiar with her. She's been on the pod a couple of different times. She's also the author of the book, When Religion Hurts You.She's awesome. She's the boss. I work with her and a bunch of other really great practitioners over there. If you are looking for mental health professional, a trained, highly qualified, highly experienced mental health professional that can help you navigate religious trauma, spiritual abuse, and all of the sub categories that fall beneath that.I encourage you to check out Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. I am currently accepting a few new clients, and there are several other practitioners that are also accepting clients. I know that's a big thing that comes up a lot in the religious trauma spiritual abuse [00:01:00] world is folks just really struggling to find a mental health professional that understands religious trauma and spiritual abuse and the nuances and complexities of the subculture of evangelicalism and church culture.So if that is something that you are looking for, I encourage you to check them out. The link will be in the show notes. Also in April of this year, I signed a book deal with Lake Dry Books. My book, Surprise Surprise is about spiritual abuse. It will be coming out in sometime in 2025. Date is yet to be determined, so I encourage you to sign up for Tears of Eden's mailing list for updates on the release of that book. The need that this book is going to fill in the world of religious trauma and spiritual abuse recovery, that is something that I see lacking in theIt's the need of making the connection between the theology of evangelicalism that actually leads [00:02:00] to the abuse happening. I'm not seeing that a lot in the literature today. Our guest a couple of weeks ago, Krista Brown, she made that connection in her memoir, Baptist Land. But outside of that, it's not really a common thing that folks are addressing. So I felt like it was a pretty important subject to navigate in my book. It's going to be mostly. Following my journey of recovery, but it's not a memoir and it is also going to be pulling some stuff from the work with Tears of Eden. There are direct quotes from podcasts that you may have listened to So sign up for the mailing list so that you can get updates about that. Today's guest is my friend and colleague Janai Allman, and I am so excited about this episode. This is an episode that I have been wanting to do for a couple years. And a few weeks before Janai had, and I had this episode scheduled to record, she sent out a Substacks article about the very subject [00:03:00] that we're going to be talking about today.We are going to talk about her book that just came out, Othered, and we are going to talk about the book a little bit as well, But Janai graciously agreed to have this conversation with me because we both learned a lot of things about telling our stories publicly and how to stay safe and also make sure we get to say our side of the story and those two things are super important on the other side of abuse.So very excited about this episode. I hope this is one that people will re listen to over and over and over again, and I am so excited to be able to include this as a resource for Tears of Eden and for folks who encounter Tears of Eden. Janai Almon is a Filipina American writer and artist who draws from her years in church leadership as well as her trauma informed training to write on healing, hope, and the way forward.She is passionate about providing language to readers so they can find a faith inspiring that freeze. She received her bachelor's degree in behavioral health science, and is currently pursuing a [00:04:00] master's in spiritual formation at Northeastern Seminary. Janiyah lives in Houston, Texas with her husband, Tyler, and their sons, Quinn and Graham.Here is my interview with Janiyah Allman Katherine: Hello, Janai. Jenai: Hi. How are you? I'm really good. I'm so glad we're doing this. Katherine: Yes, me too. I'm very excited about this episode and the subject that we are going to talk about today because it is one, as you and I have, talked about prior to the episode is something that is a big discussion within the survivor community for folks who are wanting to go public with their stories and discussing how to protect ourselves from the potential for a civil lawsuit.It is not an uncommon thing and it's becoming more common like I'm, I'm seeing it happen a lot. You just went through experience of writing a book before we [00:05:00] jumped on, you talked about going through a legal review when you were writing your book. So everything that we're sharing today is going to just be to help people have some awareness about this experience of going public with your story and protecting yourself because you want to, you want to protect yourself. As we jump in, I definitely want to highlight your book . So give folks a just rundown of what your book is and why you wanted to write this book. Jenai: Yeah, I, so my book is a faith oriented book, so I know that some people who might listen to Uncertain, they might be in varying degrees of faith, or totally deconverted altogether, I make space for the deconverted, and but also, I wrote this space reorienting, or I wrote the book reorienting, like, how I posture myself to Like the stories in the Bible and I weave in personal narrative.So this is what I experienced. How does that, how is that at all in accord with scripture? How, and it isn't [00:06:00] a lot of what I experienced while working on staff at a church, one of those churches that are often in those podcasts where they talk about the main guy who started the affiliation yelling at people.Like, I think people, I was a part of a very high control, very toxic masculinity church planting network. And I was ostracized and kicked out essentially othered in from my church because I wouldn't, I wouldn't shut up and I wouldn't, I wouldn't stop advocating for myself. And so I wrote othered.To tell my story and to essentially provide a road map to this is why I still am a Christian. I kind of detangled my experience of that space from the harm I experienced. And I have found a renewed relationship in God. However, it doesn't land per like I'm not in a church today. I'm not and some people, they are so mad that I'm not in a church today.Which, that's like a whole other thing. And then other people are going to be mad that Katherine: you still identify as a [00:07:00] Christian. Yeah. Jenai: Yeah. Like I'm not in a church. I still identify as a Christian. I'm in seminary. So that makes it like even kookier for people. And, and so I sit in a weird place where even as I tell my story, sometimes I still feel very othered because I haven't landed where other people wanted me to land.But that's kind of the whole point. Like I want people to feel free to land wherever, even my, like, I don't mention my husband very often, but even my husband has landed somewhere different in faith. And that's like much more toward deconversion. And so I hold space for a lot of different people. So anyway, I wrote other, I share, it's not a memoir.So it doesn't tell even people get mad whenever I say, I don't say everything that happened in the book, and I think we're going to talk about all of that and maybe why I didn't do that. A lot of that is just to protect myself. I think a lot of people want that, though, and they don't understand the risk that goes into telling everything like in a memoir style.I just use [00:08:00] pieces of the story. Like, my story is not up for debate. But I just used these instances, instances and moments to say, here's where something in me fractured and I had to find my way back to myself again. So yeah, I'm really glad to share. Katherine: Absolutely. And I really appreciate you sort of setting things up and just kind of letting folks know like this is where I have landed.Yeah, I had space for other people for where they have landed. I think that's really helpful because I think a lot of folks from evangelicalism will, like, come on and talk about you know, what they believe. And there is this, like, very subtle agenda of, like, I want you to believe the same thing as me which comes straight out of, These toxic evangelical cultures of like, we can't interact with you unless you believe the same thing.And so I really appreciate that. You've set it up that way and that you have written the book that way pertaining to the subject that we're going to [00:09:00] discuss today. What did you, what made you feel like it was important to write this story? in a public way and put it in a book and put it on all of the other public writing that you have written. You may already know this, but the uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support. You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening.And now back to the show. Katherine: what made you feel like it was important to write this story? in a public way and put it in a book and put [00:10:00] it on all of the other public writing that you have written.Jenai: Yeah. Well, it was, I can imagine cause there was a lot of back and forth between me and the leadership of the church of like, what was wrong, what wasn't wrong. And, and I was watching them and this is probably something you, you resonate with also, but like watching them make it make sense in their heads, like take this really.dumb argument that they've made and they've kind of loaded it with a lot of Christian speak to somehow justify like whatever conclusion that they came to. So in short, I was terminated from my position. They never used the word terminated though. They always used transition out. That was kind of a part of the The Christian speak, you know, yes, it made it sound like more polite to them as if what they weren't what they were doing to me was not impolite or like rude or loving.They were like, Oh, we're just transitioning her out. We're just like jet [00:11:00] gently pushing her out and telling her to shut the hell up. I'm sorry. I don't know if this is a you're allowed to pass. Katherine: Yes. Jenai: And so Yeah, I was like, you use these grace laced words and so I kind of started fighting back with no, you're not supposed to do this isn't so in many ways the book and the book's not an argument.It's not formatted as an argument. It is essentially kind of how I kept fighting back. And I don't even say this in the book. It's it was my resistance and how my resistance played out over the course of time Using the very scriptures that they were trying to use against me and I was saying no, no, no, no, no Like Katherine: yeah, Jenai: you know I think a big a big banner scripture and it's not in the book at all Ezekiel 34 like you are feeding on the sheep I am a sheep that was in your care and the ways in which I was treated wasn't okay And you're supposed to hear my voice And you didn't just not hear me.You like silenced me. And [00:12:00] so writing the book was pivotal for me because I think many other people are having to deal with that too. That doublespeak, duplicitousness. And they don't know how to combat it. And for whatever reason, maybe it's my stubborn, Filipina nature or maybe it's a little bit of like Texas stubborn in me as well, but I was like you You will not overpower me.You have done everything to like push me out, but I I will Like there was something stubborn in me that was like, I will dig down. Cause I know something in this is not right. And I'm going to keep speaking up. So yeah, I thought it was super pivotal to give people language. And I think some of that says that in my bio, like I want to provide people with language.I don't know what it is. I don't want to tell people what to do, but I want to give them language to say, this is what my resistance looks like, and Katherine: I Jenai: hope and healing, I think healing and resistance are both and and I think this is what you can envision for yourself also. Katherine: Right. I love that healing and resistance are both [00:13:00] and and for whatever reason that someone chooses to go public with their story.Part of that reason could just could be the healing reason like that. That is that feels important to me as a part of my healing. I need this story to be public. It could be just to teach people as you, as you chose to do just to sort of show people. Here are. other ways to interpret these things that these power hoarders are just, you know, funneling at you and there's so many of them and they're so powerful and they're so convincing and they're so nice when they say it, it's really hard to, to fight back even just in our own minds.So there's so many reasons why someone feels that it's important. to go public with their story. And what we're going to talk about today, folks, is how to protect yourself if you decide to go [00:14:00] public with your story. Disclaimer at the very beginning. Neither Janai nor I are legal counsel, we are not lawyers, we have life experience that we are going to share, we are going to give recommendations, but we encourage everyone to do your own research, look into this yourself, know what the risks are because there are risks.When you put your story of being abused in public and make the best wise decision for you and your health and where you are in your story. So with that disclaimer, we're going to kind of talk about two different parts in this episode. One, we're just going to talk about ways that you can safely tell your story that might mitigate your opportunities or the potential risk of being sued by someone.Yeah. That said. Someone can file a civil lawsuit for anything. They don't have to have corroborating evidence or anything. [00:15:00] They can make up a total lie to file a civil lawsuit. All they need is Money, really, that's really the only thing that they need. And so we're never going to be able to completely eliminate the risk for being sued, but there are some things that we have learned on our journeys that can help us navigate and protect ourselves in the event that that actually happens.So that's going to be the part two of this episode. jumping right in. If you have some things that you have learned in your process about ways to phrase things, how to phrase things, things that you learned while writing your book of, okay, I can't say that, but I can say this, would love to hear just a rundown of some stuff that you have learned in your process of telling your story publicly.Jenai: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I'll say sometimes I share parts of my story on Instagram and no [00:16:00] one's really policing what I say on Instagram. But there was much more kind of like being cautious and careful in a publication, like a book. And so just before I wrote. Or finished the manuscript of Othered. I think it was Prince Harry's memoir.Yeah, his memoir came out. And I, and I was like, I want to read that. And I just read it before even finishing the manuscript. Just because I wanted to see, how does he tell this? And not have the power of the throne come down at him. And if anyone, I began paying attention, I mean the story is wild, but also began paying attention to how he told it, or how the ghost writer was telling it for him.And I don't know if anyone else has read it, but there's kind of like, sometimes you read like, him saying, did this happen? He's like self doubting. Yes. In, in the book. Did you pick up on that also? Huh. Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: Like he was like, I, am I remembering this correctly? Almost as [00:17:00] if like, you can't come after me.I'm telling you that it's just my memory. It's just Katherine: memory. Jenai: So I learned that it is different to write something as 100 percent fact, even though there are things in my book that were 100 percent fact. This is what happened, but because I didn't have evidence or I didn't have like a screenshot or a recording of the meeting to say this is 100 percent fact, I had to say.And this is such, it's weaker. It makes for weaker writing, but it protects you more. I had to say, I remember this person saying, Katherine: yeah. Jenai: Whereas before I had it written in dialogue, like so and so said this to me, and I responded in this way, and they said, we need this corroborated, or we need evidence, or you need to re write it and say, I remember.this happening. I remember this happening. And I thought, man, like, it kind of sucks a little bit. It sucks the, like the, the wind from your sails. But I remember that being a [00:18:00] pivotal a pivotal point in like, Oh, then there were some things I do. And I, I remember, I don't know if anyone's in the middle of anything.And I'm in a one party state, meaning as long as one party in the conversation consents to a recording. You can record the conversation. And so long as I was a party, I, I, I was like, I give myself consent to record this conversation, something in my gut before I even left my position, something in my gut said, Start recording these conversations.And so I did. You're going to have to look up your own local laws to see if you're a one party or a two party state. Sometimes you need consent from everyone in the meeting before you can record. I know California is like that and maybe others. Yeah. And so I remember hitting record. And feeling a little bit bad about that.I'm like, this is, this is, this seems weird and creepy on my part at the time, but there was something in my gut [00:19:00] that was telling me, record this conversation. And I remember texting a fellow coworker who was also experiencing the same like mess that I was. And I texted her and I said, is it wrong of me to record this conversation?And she goes, Oh my gosh, yes. And I thought it was wrong. Yes. She, even she like, even in who, And even she couldn't, cause it feels that creepy. Yeah. Like even the people who are in it with you might think, oh, this isn't gracious of you. But I didn't listen to her and I thought I was going to keep recording.And now, like if I talk to her now. And I told her, Hey, remember when you told me I should stop recording? I didn't, she would probably say, I'm so glad you didn't listen to me. Right. I'm so glad you just kept doing it. And so I, I did have evidence. I did have evidence. I had screenshots. Instagram messages, or not Instagram, my goodness.IPhone, iMessage. Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: Like they have like these settings where it says, you know, delete my messages after a month, delete 'em after a year or whatever. I [00:20:00] turn that feature off, so I have a ton of like, storage on my phone from all my stored messages, but that's really so that I have all the evidence.And so I took screenshots. Yeah. And I put all of that in a folder to send off. For those that don't know, when you read a, when you write a book, they usually do what's called a permissions read. Meaning if you added stories of other people your editor will go through and read to see who do you need permission from.And they'll give you like a form to send to that friend who says, I give permission for this story to be in the book. And for me, I thought, well, I don't know how this is going to work. I'm not going to get permission from anyone to tell the story. Katherine: Yeah, Jenai: and they emailed me back and they were like, congratulations, you don't need to get permission.However, we do need to do a corroboration read or a legal read of the book, and this is what our lawyer has flagged as like comments in the document for like, this is where you need [00:21:00] corroboration or change the word or evidence and Yeah, so that's kind of like an overview of the process. Katherine: And corroboration is another person saying, yes, that.Yes, Jenai: yes, that happened. Even, even though you don't have evidence, if someone else can say, yes, this happened, I was there, I witnessed it. I know that that is exactly how that it played out. They are kind of like your witness. It is not evidence. It's your witness. Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. And that is. For them and for you in the event that you do get sued.We already have this ready, we have to go, we have someone backing this up, we have someone that has verified that this is true for that again doesn't necessarily prevent the lawsuit from happening, but it is stuff that can just protect you in the event. Some other things that are helpful that you are.Probably alluding to saying things like allegedly, or it is my opinion [00:22:00] appeared to me that X, Y said this, or it seemed as if, and that feels so weird saying that when it's like your story and it happened to you, but it's also just kind of acknowledging. A human limitation. So just kind of putting it in that category.And, and memory memory does change over time. It doesn't mean that it wasn't 100 percent true, but it we're just we're just kind of acknowledging human beings have limitations and I am a human being, and it's and it's protection. It's okay to protect yourself. You are not being dishonest, but it is, it does feel so weird, especially when we come out of these environments where we have been silenced and our story and our narrative gets taken by other people and twisted and reframed.We just want to say it like this happened and this person was so horrible, awful, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there are [00:23:00] spaces to do that. And. Maybe write the first draft with like every expletive you ever wanted to use, get it all out and then go back. and adjust it for public consumption. Maybe wait a few days.And so yes, those emotions need to be felt. Those emotions need to be gotten out and you also want to protect yourself. So both of those things can happen. And the importance of just the reality that the story is out there and there may be some things that just feel a little weird to say them a certain way, but it has a story out there.How do you navigate that of like, this wasn't the most ideal way to write this but it was the safest way to write this. How do you navigate that experience? Jenai: Yeah. I remember In, I think it's in the first chapter of the book, I am certain it's in the first chapter of the book, because I start the book with a story [00:24:00] of my first day of work that started with my executive director yelling Or, you know, whatever your definition of, yeah, I think it was yelling I called it not yelling, but he was raising his voice because, you know, there is no, I can't track the decibel level of what he's saying, and like, I don't want that to be a whole argument, but even that, I kind of cushioned and said, He wasn't yelling, but he was raising his voice to the degree that everyone in the building could hear him.You know what I mean? Katherine: Yeah, and so people are going to be like, he was yelling. Jenai: Yeah, he was yelling. And so it's subversive little things like that. And so. I, I kind of cushioned where I could, but then later in the chapter when I, my first chapter is kind of about giving people terms, because people use spiritual abuse in different ways, or church hurt in different ways, and so I kind of tracked with like, this is how I'm using them for the book.So I tell that [00:25:00] story, and then I share kind of my definition of these terms, and because I put some cushion in the story later when I talk about that experience, when I name what happened in that experience, I say, this was spiritually abusive. And I just say it. I felt like I had the confidence to say it there, because I had the allegedly in the cushion.I didn't, I didn't have to write this was a, I alleged that this was spiritual abuse. I could just say it with punch and power later in the chapter. And so there are kind of subversive ways like that, that you as a writer, or even if you tell your story because I know some people might be Not everyone's writing, some people are podcasters, some people are sharing their stories in different ways and so there are there are subversive ways to tell the truth, such that you are clever, and you can protect yourself as well.There's something, some verse in Matthew that's like, you know, be as wise as a serpent. But be as gentle as a dove [00:26:00] and I think I do that in the book like I had to navigate this I wanted the book to be compassionate, but I also wanted to be clever and I wanted to show like I could still tell my story and so yeah, there's places you can put cushion when you need to.And then if you're, if you're clever with your writing, the imagery and or the, you know, the imagination of the reader will fill in the gaps. Thanks. Yeah, Katherine: but then you are still protected. Jenai: Yeah. Katherine: Another, another thing that feels weird is when we're writing about someone who's not a public figure changing names, changing physical identifiers, that also feels super weird.Cause we're like, we just want them to know that it was this person. But the reality is that most people don't know that person. And so thinking of it as a wider. public facing thing rather than the 5, 10, 20, 100, or a thousand people within that space who would know who that is. And that vindication that we [00:27:00] would get from making it obvious who the person is versus protecting ourselves and, and just changing their name, changing physical identifiers.That's different if it is a public figure. When it's a public figure, you can phrase it. a way to phrase it is, or a way to, to angle it or approach it is to write it as if it is for the public good. Like, Hey, a lot of people are asking me about this person. And so I'm sharing this story so that the public will know that this happened, or it isn't, it is important to me that people know that this, you know, public figure.You know, Robbie Zacharias is a predator, you know, like, like stuff like that, where you are, you are saying you're doing it for the public good. And in essence, you are. So that is another way where they, again, they can still see you for [00:28:00] defamation and libel, all of the things. But when you're approaching it as I'm doing this for the, like, Oh, I'm just doing this for the public.And that's what, that's what journalists do. Like they, that's why they write, like, you know, Or that's the ethics that they are supposed to follow of this is important information. This is truth that the public needs to be aware of. And so that's another angle to approach it as and even a way to kind of approach the story as a, as a whole, as you, you did of It's important that people know there's a different way to interpret these verses and making sure that the public knows that there are other ways to say this.And that's another angle. And Jenai: that's why I actually don't use names or even fake names at all in my book. And I think that's a reason why I think people approach it. They're like, this is Jani's story. And I was like, this is really the story of my resistance. It's not the [00:29:00] story of like everything that happened.And so I think that might, like, you know, I think people want to hear like the nitty gritty and I. I would have had to use so much more mental and emotional labor if I was telling stories of how they allegedly kept using my social security number for their church credit card 18 months after I was fired.You know, like, I, I would have to, like, it would take so long. So much more mental labor for me to talk about, like how financial fraud came about or how, how all these other things happened and changing names. And so that's why I was like, I can't write a memoir. I'm not a memoirist. Katherine: Mm-Hmm, . Jenai: But I can tell my story of my resistance and in doing it, framing it that way, I could tell pieces of my story and then not use names.And so I say things like executive director. Yeah, or a senior pastor or lead pastor. And so the people who [00:30:00] are there who read the book will know exactly who I'm talking about. And another way that I've protected myself, and I don't know if a lot of people know this, is that I actually helped plant the church.And what I mean, what I say, what I mean when I say that is, In Texas, when you file for a non profit or corporate, a non profit corporation status with our state, you have to have three signing directors to kind of legalize this organization with, you know, the Austin. the state capitol. And I was one of the signers.So there, it was me and two other guys as signing directors that that stuff is open access. So if you go and Google that stuff, you find my name connected to that church. One way that I've protected myself is I don't write under my full name, Jani Amen. That's my first and my middle name. And When you, I mean, they could still probably find, if someone digs enough, [00:31:00] they can find it.But I can say I put, like, measures in place to not be connected. I don't name the church, that's another thing. I don't talk about even the neighborhood that it was in in the book. So people can't geographically locate it. So, in many ways, I have hemmed myself in from further harm that they could do, and I've just, I've provided cushion in other ways, not just in the book, but in how I approach telling my story, and a pen name, that's not deceptive to readers, that's like, pen names Yeah, pen names are, yeah, it's like industry standard people I mean, that's happened, pen names have happened for a long time.And so I didn't, I'm still writing under my genuine names. I'm just writing under my first and my middle name. Which is what a lot of people do. So yeah, that was just another way I protected myself. Katherine: Yeah. And then another [00:32:00] small detail that could play a role is the names of states lawsuits are, are usually organized by a state and it's called jurisdiction. So if it's if it's possible to remove even state identifiers and just use the area of the country or change the state or whatever, then that just that ties things up. Legally within the context of of a lawsuit and can make it like if it's outside of the, the person who did the wrong, allegedly did the wrong outside of their state and they have to sue across state lines or, or something like that.And, and there's no, indication that it actually happened within the state, within the writing then that can just make it a little bit trickier to file a lawsuit and to, to get it [00:33:00] through. And so it just makes it a little bit more challenging. So those are just some other things to consider as you're, as you're writing.I know when I write about my family, I always say the South. I never say the state. I always say the South. I've started doing very recently. And even if people ask me like in person where I grew up, I just say the South and they'll be like, where? And I was like, I just say the South. Just cause I don't want that connection to a specific state for those jurisdiction reasons.Another fun fact tidbit that is not legal advice. Interested in listening to more than 40 archived Uncertain Podcast episodes? All you have to do is sign up to become a monthly supporter of 5 or more. Becoming a monthly supporter will give you access to popular episodes such as Confessions of a Christian Parent and When Bad People Do Good Things.You'll also get access to this episode without any interruptions from yours truly. Become a monthly supporter today by going to tiersofedian. org slash [00:34:00] support.Katherine: All right. Anything more we want to say about that before we jump into the experience of. working with lawyers and what what might happen on the other side of a lawsuit. Jenai: No, I, I think that kind of tidies up the I will say I have a very unique name.Not every, if you're like a Rachel Smith, You know, you probably have, if someone Googles you they're gonna find so many other Rachel Smiths. And so with the pen name thing, I don't want anyone to freak out or feel like they have to change their name, especially if your name means a lot to you. So please, I just want to be like really sensitive to that.As a Jani Amon, I, you know, or just a Jani in general, they're going to find me. I'm going to be on page one of the Google there, there are more of us than I realize, but the, there aren't as many who are public on the internet. And so, yeah, I would say that's the only thing I can say a Houston church and everyone's like Katherine: Yeah. We'll find you. People find you. And I mean, that is something that you can do. It's not, you know, [00:35:00] It's a it's an option for for protection using using the the pen name.And I think, as you said, if it's. very intentional that we're not trying to like go after this person and take them down. It, it helps. Those are just little things that can help. As we jump into talking about the bum, bum, bum, bum, what if you do get sued? Let's talk about some ways that We can protect ourselves in the event that that happens.It is not uncommon and just want to let folks know from where I sit in the work that I do, I am seeing, if you're talking about the spiritual abuse space and going public about abuse that pastors have done or denominations or whatever, I am watching pastors and denominations and organizations become more litigious.They are, they are fighting back. By filing civil suits. [00:36:00] Now it is my opinion. We need to also be fighting back and filing civil suits. But when you've been abused, a lot of times you don't want to do that. And that is it's over for you. You are moving on and health and you do not want to interact with that person anymore.But the, the increase of lawsuits and civil suits from. Pastors suing folks who have accused them of abuse that is growing and I project is probably going to continue to grow as they fight back and they lose power. So it is not. a unlikely event if you start going public and start talking about specific people especially and specific denominations especially.Very sad, just going to acknowledge that right here that that even needs to be a reality but as you absolutely quoted at the beginning Be Wise is Wise as serpents and gentle as doves and this is just a way to be [00:37:00] real wise when we start going public with our stories. Now, one thing to just be aware of, of I don't know that a lot of people know this but you can get Insurance for yourself for things like liable defamation, slander.And if you, I recommend talking to a local broker in your city and just say, Hey, this is what I'm doing. I have a podcast or I put a lot of stuff on my website or I'm writing a book and I need coverage. What are your recommendations? The brokerage will do, broker will do the research for you and likely present you with some options of things that you can purchase for your own protection.When you do that, when you have insurance and if these, you know, alleged abusers know that you have insurance, it does increase the likelihood that you're going to get sued. And the reason why is because if you get [00:38:00] sued and you have no money there, you file bankruptcy and they get nothing. If you, if they see you and have insurance, then they are increasing the likelihood that they are going to get money because insurances can just decide.This is, it's more expensive to defend this case than to settle this case and they can make that decision that they're going to settle instead of defend. That's just a nuance of how the system works. It does not mean that you are admitting fault. You never have to admit fault. But if an insurance company is covering you, then they might make that choice on your behalf.They can do that. And lawyers know that and so if you have insurance, it does increase. slightly increase your chance of getting sued. However, the alternative is basically you don't have insurance and then you then not only are going through the horrendous [00:39:00] emotional stress of a lawsuit, you're also having to pay for it.So that is just something to consider. As you are going public with your story and something very simple that you can do to protect yourself. You can add it on to your renter's insurance. You can add it on to your mortgage. I think it's a, if it's something that you do regularly, like for you and I, or for myself forming an LLC, forming a nonprofit so that you have the insurance to cover that specific entity and you do all of the work under that entity.So then you are not on the hook should something happen because it's under that entity. Those are just real weird nuances and something that most people are never going to have to know or be aware of. But for this particular thing of going public about our story of abuse is something for folks to be aware of.Would you like to share about what someone might expect [00:40:00] when, if they have to interact with lawyers? Jenai: Yes. And that was hard. That was hard. I don't remember if we said this during the recording, but lawyers are not. Dental? Yes. They're not trauma informed.They don't really, their concern is, Like winning and not necessarily, I mean, that's kind of like what I feel like with pastors, pastors are so many pastors, not all pastors are concerned about like upping the numbers. And sometimes the spiritual abuse happens because they look at the metrics and not at the people.And in many ways, I kind of felt some of that with like, Katherine: Hey, Jenai: just want to make sure that they win, not necessarily that this person is cared for. That's someone else's job. I will say I do not have a lawyer. I had, I worked with the lawyer, the legal representation with my publisher, so when I, when they did that permissions read, that was [00:41:00] not a permissions read, and they transferred it over to a legal read the editor read through, but then the editor also had the lawyer read through.And the lawyer went through and commented on the document certain things. Sometimes I don't know if I was supposed to see these comments or if they were supposed to scrub them. And I, I, because in reading some of their comments, they're trying to think about how can this writer say this? So that really so that everyone is protected, but sometimes they write it as if the writer did something wrong here and it just lands on you kind of hard.And getting the email that said, you know, we need, we need you to provide corroboration. It felt a lot like, They don't believe me. Katherine: Yeah. You have to prove that this was true. Jenai: Yes. Katherine: Yeah. And Jenai: that I knew it was coming from other people I had spoken with and other writers and authors that I know of. I knew that this was coming, so it didn't [00:42:00] hit me too hard.Katherine: Mm-Hmm. . I Jenai: can imagine that it might if other, other people aren't experiencing that, and I think. Oh, I'm so grateful for my agent. So if someone, if you can work with an agent some people say find whatever agent that you can find. But really my encouragement is if you can land with an agent, not just somebody who will have you, but someone who will have your back.Katherine: Yeah, that Jenai: is pretty pivotal. And she was sensitive enough. She also, that was another thing, all my emails between me and my publisher go to my agent as well. My agent is a part of an agency who has a lawyer at the head. And so he kind of, he's not my agent, but he's connected. And so I, I feel very kept at that particular, like, and held.Katherine: Yeah at Jenai: that agency, but my agent was sensitive enough that she got the email and before I responded to the email Or before I even texted her she texted me I want to say five [00:43:00] minutes after the email hit my inbox and she said I want you to know This doesn't mean that they don't believe you. They're all everyone's just concerned about making sure The book is protected that you're protected.This doesn't mean that they don't believe you and I You I knew that it was just really nice to have someone else tell me that. And I know that depending on, I think self publishing is a totally valid journey especially after going through publishing. So not everyone has an agent, but even if you can get someone in your corner, who's a part of walking through the process with you, even if it's not an agent who can read this stuff with you and tell you the things that Even you yourself know, I know that this means that they don't believe me.Hearing it from another person really does help just take care of like your body, your nervous system. And so that, but it was a very hard thing to read. And then the comments from the lawyer herself were also really. really hard. I think [00:44:00] sometimes some people think it's the men and I'm like, no, not Katherine: really.No, no, no, no, no. It is not. It is not. And they, they, again, as you said, they want to win. And so they are thinking about this from a perspective of like, if we get into a lawsuit, how will we win? What are the things that we need in order to win? And so much of the civil lawsuit there are absolutely situations.I know someone who is suing someone for financial fraud right now and it is a genuine situation in which they should be suing that person, but this can also just be this very capitalistic way for power holders to just be bullies. There aren't a lot of like regulations about like, is this a legitimate reason to sue someone.And so. It's a game. A lot of it's a game. And the, the lawyers, a certain type of person ends up being a lawyer, and they are, they're, they're, they're about strategy and the game, and how do I win this game, and they are [00:45:00] not, thinking you are an abuse survivor who has been extremely traumatized and they're not thinking how is this going to land for you.They also tend to have very little other than just like very high level understanding of like rape is sexual abuse. They don't have a lot of understanding about the nuances of abuse and what exactly is abuse. And so. That when you've already gone through an experience of having to justify and defend yourself and, and convince yourself that this is real and this really happened and, and what you are experiencing and how you are navigating your trauma is real to then have this real life experience of people just like not believing you, even though that's not necessarily the case, but it feels like they don't believe you.It can be very re traumatizing, and so we're just, we're just sharing this to just like, just be aware. Make, make a wise choice of, of this with [00:46:00] awareness. And as Janai said, surround yourself with people, give yourself some good people who are going to be there to support you. Also, something to keep in mind, a civil suit is not a criminal suit.You are not a criminal. You do not commit a crime. It might feel like it, but you didn't do anything wrong. Again, people can sue for any reason whatsoever. They do not have to have any, any corroboration. All they have to do is be a bully and have a lot of money. Jenai: Yeah. I write in other actually, like if people, if people you are calling out someone for misuse of power, they will continue to misuse their power and abuse their power to silence you.And so they're going to be like, oops, my bad. They will keep doing it. They will keep coming after you. And I think really the only way to stop it from happening is you have to find your power back. And, and that can be through a number of things, [00:47:00] whether, like, people can corroborate your story, you've gathered evidence I will say for anyone gathering evidence or in the middle of that process, don't necessarily do everything under, like, if you get something to your work email and that work email is connected to the abusive situation, start forwarding everything to your personal email because they will close that email account eventually and you will lose evidence, that was in my case, I've also, there was a pastor in my story.It's not in the book at all, but who has been trying to meet with me or he has been meeting with me for coffee, trying to reconcile, and I feel safe enough to have these conversations with him and not feel talked down to, or not feel, you know, gaslit. I won't let that happen. But because he has extended an olive branch and has kind of admitted to some of the wrongdoing he's done in the corroboration process, I needed to corroborate that I was given, you know two severance options, and I didn't have that screenshot.It was in, [00:48:00] like, a slide. I have a Slack channel that I'm no longer a part of. It was in my old work email that I never forwarded to my personal email. And so I had to get corroboration for that. And I asked this pastor, I will say lawyer or the lawyer for the publisher, they said, if your husband can corroborate, he is allowed to corroborate for your story.Right. So that was super helpful. And I, but instead of in title, my husband did corroborate for some of the things, but for this severance option, I thought I'm going to ask the pastor, my friend to do this, my former friend to do this because he can use the one that gave me the severance options. And it was really like a, let me see the test of your character, whether you'll do this, and he didn't, he said, Katherine: oh, goodness, he Jenai: said, there's just so much more nuance.And I'm not saying whether or not there is nuance to the situation. And by the way, I reject his nuance. It was total crap. I was just saying, the [00:49:00] corroboration is. Did you or did you not give me two severance options? And he wanted to say, you know, he wanted to say, but this happened, like, and I was like, yeah.And I said, can you do this? Can you confirm this? And he said, no, I won't corroborate for you. And I was like, you dirty liar. I was like, fine. I, I, I wasn't upset. I was just like, okay. Katherine: You showed, you showed your colors. Jenai: Yeah, you are actually Like confirming that you are still in alignment with the character of the person that I knew before.And like my lack of trust with you is validated. Like I can no longer trust. I can't, like my, my gut is telling me the right things. I gave you an opportunity to mend some of that trust and you did not. So I still have it in the book that I was given two severance options because my husband was like, yes, you were given two severance options.And I remember that. And if it ever [00:50:00] goes to court and everyone gets deposed, that's what they're going to say, you know, like you, yeah, Katherine: you have to. Yeah. And exactly. I can cut this from the episode, but was one of the options, Like you have to sign an NDA and you get this? Jenai: No. Okay. There was no NDA.We can keep this in. I was given two severance options. Here's the thing, and this is how pivotal, I was the primary on the bank account. Like my, I could have done anything with the finding. I didn't. But that I, I had the passwords to everything. I was the primary check signer. I had a lot of things that I was responsible for.I had no power over because they, you know, kind of cuffed me in terms of like what did and didn't happen. And I was trying to follow the rules. But because I had the access and the responsibility to maintain everything, they couldn't just get rid of me super quick because they needed that access. And [00:51:00] so my severance options were two weeks notice and two months severance.Or I work for two months and I get another three months severance and I, this was 2020. This is when people are losing their jobs. And I thought I need, I actually asked, I said, can I have more severance? Like, this is, you are my brothers. Yes. You are, you are like, tying my hands behind my back.You have given me no voice and no choice, even though I have consistently told you that this man's harmful. Can I have more severance? They ignored that request. I actually met with somebody who, and I told him, I said, remember you were ignored this request. And he was like, did we? And I said, yes, I remember asking for six months of severance.Because they do whatever they can't have to in their mind to protect their male fragility that they've done something wrong my husband was there, but the severance thing was [00:52:00] really really hard The kicker is is they did eventually get rid of the senior pastor They gave him like nine ten months worth of severance His salary.I, his salary was six figures. My salary was in the fifties. Mm-Hmm. . And so I, I felt like I wasn't asking a lot. A lot. I wasn't asking for a lot. Katherine: Right, exactly. Jenai: They gave him my salary and then some through his severance, like later, and I thought. Man, like, I, whatever, this is obviously, like, here is another instance where you have made a value statement that one person was more valuable than another, and even in sending them away, you wanted to send him away with so much care, and you just freaking threw me off.Yeah. It threw me overboard. So, Katherine: yeah. Oh my gosh. I have heard so many stories [00:53:00] like that of just like, they'll be so stingy with the person who blew the whistle. And then when they, you know, get forced to like, get rid of the pastor because it's just, too much collateral to keep him on because so many people are leaving or for whatever reason and and then they just send him off with like a year of severance and like you know continue to pay his insurance and like all this kind of stuff and you're just like guys yeah it is not an equitable system in any way shape or form Jenai: i would say i probably if i had to venture a guess i will never find a civil suit filed against me because I in gathering evidence and in kind of trusting my gut.They didn't know that I was recording things after they let me go and terminated me. They began a quote unquote internal investigation. And if anyone knows, it's not really that much of an investigation where they investigate themselves, [00:54:00] you know, like, come on, man. But. In these internal investigation talks, I recorded everything, and I was kind of triangulating the information with some members.And I was asking them, what are they telling you? Because this is what I was told. And what are they telling you? And thankfully, some of those what they were telling the members, some of that's recorded in member meetings. And so I was like, okay. One way. I think we mentioned before pastors still feel like they are just leaders in general feel like they have power.That's why they keep coming after you. And then 1 way to prevent that is to get your own power back. Once I revealed to them that I had been recording things. and catching them in their lies. Katherine: Yes. Jenai: They realized, Oh, we can't just tell her one thing and tell the members another thing. Cause I remember, I remember them telling me, you know, pastors on [00:55:00] probation, pastors, this, I recorded that meeting without their, their knowledge, because it's one party consent.And then I heard from the member meeting that Pastor went on stage and he said, they've given me time off. Like he wasn't, he wasn't forthright with I'm on probation. They also gave him the power to tell the story himself. Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: Which I thought, don't you know? And they were like, we gave him like an opportunity to own.And I was like, no, you didn't. You gave him an opportunity to save face and Katherine: I Jenai: sent them an email. And I said, this is what you've done. This is what I was told. Here is the screen recording. I don't know if this is the case anymore, but there's an app called Loom, where I, I think they might have disabled this feature.This was early days, 2020, when people were figuring out screen recording and all that stuff. But Loom will record, did record my screen. And because I didn't do it through Zoom, it didn't let the person know that I was [00:56:00] recording the call. Katherine: And so, Jenai: I sent them that video that said, This is what you said. Here it is in the transcript.And they stopped. Like, they just, they realized, Oh my gosh, we have to be more careful with her. Katherine: Mm hmm. And then at Jenai: that point, they, I noticed significantly that they were mincing words with me. Because, Katherine: they knew. Jenai: Well, and because I got my power back, they just couldn't just tell me anything anymore.I was weighing and measuring it against everything else they were telling other people. Katherine: Yeah, yeah. And if you are still happen to be in your situation, your abusive situation, document, document, document, document, document. If you can't record it, you can, you can leave a meeting and you can write your own notes.You can save the emails, as you know, I was saying, save the screenshots. Have your have all of your things that feel so weird to do that. Like you're just like a double agent. But just think of it that [00:57:00] way. Like, like you are a double agent in a hostile regime, just like, like that person. And yeah. and protect yourself and give yourself what you need to survive that.Speaking of survival in the event that you do get sued it is a very traumatizing situation to, like, have to be interacting with this stuff again and to not have agency over when you interact with that stuff. And, and it can be very re traumatizing. Litigation abuse is a real thing, such as. A, you know, woman tries to leave her violently abusive husband, even has a restraining order out.And for that husband to just want, he just wants to keep controlling her and maintain contact with her. We'll just sue her for nothing just to, to maintain the contact. So litigation abuse is a real thing. And that might help to just kind of look at it. That way of like, I'm [00:58:00] being abused in real time and care for yourself.If that were true, surround yourself with people, take a lot of naps be in therapy, if you can and give yourself a lot of tenderness and care in that situation. And you don't have to be this strong, bad ass all the time. Like if it's hard for you and it is a struggle, that's okay. It's okay if that is a struggle for you and you and it impacts you.That's why they're doing it. Like they're trying to impact you and for it to actually impact you and actually be like real time abuse that you're experiencing and for that to have an effect on you, that's okay. And give yourself resources in that situation so that you are actually being supported.when that is happening. One final thought and then I'll let you share final thoughts [00:59:00] too. If you decide that you want to file a civil suit against against a perpetrator or an abuser and you got a lot of evidence and a lot of corroboration and you think you got a good case, there are lawyers that work on contingency who will look at your case and say, I'm going to defend this case for free and I get paid if you get paid.So that is an option to do your research and not legal advice, but I really hope more people will do that. Do that, do that thing and just let them know, Hey, you're going to sue us. We're going to sue you. Monique, any final thoughts or any other things that you want to add to something that we left out or holes to fill?Yeah, Jenai: yeah. I will say if you live in a two party state and you have to get consent before recording, that can still work in your favor too. So after my former leaders found out I was recording, they eventually asked me to partake in a reconciliatory meeting. And I, I know I was like, I [01:00:00] will, I will come to that.And I told them I will come to that on two conditions. I, I had already sat on one side of the table with all six of them before. And I said, I need advocates there for me. Beyond my husband, I, I, I want people there who are for there for us. And the second request was that I record the meeting.If you, I thought, well, it's going, they're going to be much more careful with their words when they record the meeting, but still in that meeting, there were still some tells. Katherine: Yeah. For Jenai: instance, one thing I wrote about in other, I think maybe it's chapter three about apologies. And how I'm sorry, you feel that way is different than I, I'm sorry, I did this to you.Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: And in this rec, like this meeting that they, that they, they said, yes, they let me record it. They still said, I'm sorry, you feel that way. I'm sorry. You feel like you, I would, I had dismissed you and I'm sorry. And like, they still [01:01:00] kind of tell on themselves. So if you live in a two party state and you feel like you can't do these clever one party things.You can still gather good information, even if you ask. And they will still, they show their colors, even if they don't think that they're showing their colors. Like, I really think sometimes, sometimes some people know what they're doing and I think sometimes the self deception is so deep, they just don't know how bonkers it is.Or they're Katherine: super arrogant and they, they really genuinely feel like they can do whatever they want. Jenai: Yeah, yeah. And so there are ways in which you can gather information, even if, like, you don't have a similar one party state situation, like I do. I will also say that when it comes time to providing corroboration, you know, Asking for corroboration, I mentioned, was really hard, but also going back through the evidence, some of my evidence was audio or video recording, and [01:02:00] I had to go back and listen to Jenai: Or watch the video and provide a timestamp.I had to send them the audio or video link and give them a timestamp, and I, that was very difficult. Very hard on me. I did it because I needed to, but if that sounds like something you don't want to do try to find you'll, you'll, if you want to write it the way that you have it and not say, I remember this, you want to actually use that.Just be gentle with yourself. That is a really hard thing. I think I needed to not look at the book for a while after providing evidence because that was listening to those voices and seeing those faces again. It was really hard. And so I just wanted, I didn't want to not say that because people think, Oh, I have all this evidence going back and looking at the evidence can be really, really hard on you.Yeah. Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. And it's so important to just have our, our agency and interact with the [01:03:00] material in our own way in our own time. And when you have something like a book deadline, You don't always have that that capacity to just, yeah. You know, do it on your own time and just when you, when you feel good enough for it.And and a and a civil suit similar is there's deadlines, there's timelines, and you can't just like, oh, I just wanna block out this day and then the next day I'm gonna go get a massage. Like, you don't always have that agency. And just that, just that lack of control within that. Contacts can also feel retraumatizing.And so since we probably discouraged everybody listening to from going public with their stories, what let's remind folks again, like why it's sometimes important to go public with our stories. Jenai: I think it was important to me personally to keep my integrity. I did everything I could do to stop someone else from getting hurt.I, I stood up, I did exactly what my [01:04:00] faith had encouraged me to do. I did exactly the thing I, I believe. And I write this in the book sharing your story and telling your story and owning your story is a way to be like what I think the prophets of the old Testament did. The prophets, they didn't tell fortunes.They were calling people in power to account. I now realize the weight of that, like, oh my gosh, like that is, I did exactly, I spoke up and I don't, I know that not everyone will speak up, not everyone, you know, I had power, I had gathered all this evidence, I had the power to speak up because I had kind of things that bolstered me, not everyone has that, and I, I don't want anyone to feel shame If they feel like they can't tell their story because they don't have that same kind of support or evidence but keep telling your story to yourself so that you're validating yourself.If, if no one else will affirm you, there is still so much power in [01:05:00] affirming your own truth, your own story. No one can take that away from you, but they will do their damnedest to take it away from you. I will also say that it is. mentally grueling. It is I just want people to take care of themselves.Above all, just, just to, if you do and do this work and you know you're going to tell your story give yourself a lot of space and say no to other things that Yeah. Other expectations, other, you know, there are other friends who I'm promoting this book and it's a very vulnerable book. There are other friends who are also writers who also want me to write endorsements or who also in this particular time want me to do something for them and support them.And as much as I love them, I have had to say no to a lot of them as I promote this book or do this work because I'm trying to do it well and with capacity. And because the story is so vulnerable, it takes a lot out of me. So say like, just be [01:06:00] understanding that you have to say no to a lot of people that you love and like, that's okay.Yeah, the people who love you who hear no from you will still like acknowledge that this is okay. Katherine: Absolutely. Jenai: If they take offense to that, then maybe they aren't as big a support as you thought they were and just redraw the boundaries of that relationship, but make a lot of space for you and doing this work.Katherine: Absolutely. And the reality that it's really important to tell our story, to tell our version of the story, to reclaim our narrative, to reclaim our power post an abusive situation, but there are many ways to do that. And telling a story publicly does not have to be the only or only way. Or even an option like we it's important to tell those stories 100 percent highly encouraged finding safe places where you can tell your story.You don't have to go public with it. [01:07:00] Absolutely. And, and. There are things you can do if you decide that that's important to you to make sure that you are taking care of yourself and protecting yourself. Listen to this episode for that. As we wrap up, how can people find you, find your book, interact with you, and yeah, what are the easiest places for people to get in touch with you?Jenai: I am everywhere on the internet at Janiyah Amin. And I'm usually hanging out on Instagram, not really on Twitter or X or whatever it is anymore. It's getting more vitriolic over there. I also, what prompted this conversation was not only that I'm promoting a book, but I also wrote about this experience on Substack.And if you want, Catherine, I can send you the link and you can include that in any show notes on the website, but also what I've considered doing and wha

Summary In this conversation, Tim and Dr. Laura Anderson respond to a video by Allie Stuckey and John MacArthur on mental health. They discuss the topics of medication, the brain and mind connection, and the role of therapy in treating mental health issues. They also address the misconception that medication cannot fix the mind and the importance of a holistic approach to mental health. The conversation highlights the need for accurate information and research in discussions on mental health. In this conversation, Tim and Dr. Laura Anderson discuss John MacArthur's views on mental health and the role of spirituality in addressing mental health issues. They critique MacArthur's claims that chemical imbalances in the brain are a lie and that mental health problems can be solved by turning to Christ instead of medication. Dr. Anderson explains the current understanding of trauma and the importance of a holistic approach to mental health. They also discuss the harmful effects of fundamentalist beliefs and the need for a more compassionate and evidence-based approach to mental health. Takeaways The brain and mind are separate but inseparable, and they work together in mental health. Medication can be an effective tool in treating mental health issues, but it should be part of a holistic approach that includes therapy, lifestyle changes, and coping skills. There is a need for accurate information and research in discussions on mental health. The conversation highlights the importance of addressing mental health issues with compassion and understanding. John MacArthur's claim that chemical imbalances in the brain are a lie is not supported by current research. Mental health issues are complex and can be influenced by a variety of factors, including genetics, environment, and traumatic experiences. A holistic approach to mental health, including therapy, medication, and support systems, is often necessary for effective treatment. Fundamentalist beliefs can be harmful and may contribute to stigma and shame surrounding mental health issues. A compassionate and evidence-based approach to mental health is essential for supporting individuals in their journey towards healing and well-being. Chapters 01:03 Background and Credentials 03:20 Taking a Holistic Approach to Mental Health 08:25 The Problematic Views of John MacArthur and Allie Stuckey 10:17 The Brain and Mind Connection 18:06 The Myth of Mental Health 20:27 The Role of Medication in Mental Health 30:18 Debunking the Myth of Chemical Imbalances 44:28 Understanding Trauma and its Effects 56:00 Embracing a Non-Resistant Approach to Mental Health Lauren's Website: https://drlauraeanderson.com/ https://www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/ ______________ If you'd like to support our work, you can DONATE here! Get Tickets to Beer Camp (PROMO: TNEHOBBIT) Follow Us On Instagram @thenewevangelicals  Subscribe On YouTube @thenewevangelicals The New Evangelicals exists to support those who are tired of how evangelical church has been done before and want to see an authentic faith lived out with Jesus at the center. We are committed to building a caring community that emulates the ways of Jesus by reclaiming the evangelical tradition and embracing values that build a better way forward. If you've been marginalized by your faith, you are welcome here. We've built an empathetic and inclusive space that encourages authentic conversations, connections and faith. Whether you consider yourself a Christian, an exvangelical, someone who's questioning your faith, or someone who's left the faith entirely, you are welcome here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, in episode 203, special guests Laura Anderson, founder of Local Ocean, and Peter Koehler, her financial consultant, explain why Laura decided to sell her thriving seafood business in a transaction that created a business model that is neither widely known nor widely understood. It's called an employee-ownership trust, and there are only about 50 of them in the United States. But their numbers are growing here and abroad, and for good reason. The trust model offers owners something of a choose-your-own-adventure option that can allow them to sell for a market rate in a relatively uncomplicated transaction that makes it far more likely the business will remain true to its established mission—especially when compared to selling to private equity or even to an employee stock ownership plan. Of course, there are challenges, including getting a bank to consider financing one of these deals. But in this episode, Laura explains why, with Peter's help, she decided to trust the trust.

Access the FULL EPISODE on my Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/4ndrewpledgerIn this Patreon bonus episode, host Andrew Pledger explores the transformative power of trauma survivors sharing their stories. He discusses how recounting experiences in a safe space fosters healing, validation, and emotional regulation. Referencing insights from Dr. Laura Anderson and Brené Brown, Andrew explains the importance of finding the right language to articulate trauma. He highlights the role of storytelling in reclaiming personal narratives and overcoming complex PTSD, as emphasized by Dr. Alexandra Stein.JOIN MY PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/4ndrewpledgerFacebook Discussion Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1153866318625322/My Substack: https://speakingupandrewpledger.substack.com/Linktree: https://andrewpledger.mypixieset.com/links-Music: https://www.purple-planet.com*Some audio is regenerated by AI because of mispronunciations and/or recording issues Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We were so honored and excited to be joined by Dr. Laura Anderson, PhD! She is a licensed psychotherapist, religious trauma expert and coach, speaker, educator, and author of the book "When Religion Hurts You: Healing from Religious Trauma and the Impact of High-Control Religion". In this episode we discuss the connections and similarities between high control religious groups and domestic violence/controlling relationships. This is definitely one you won't want to miss! TW: religious trauma, domestic violence ______ Some important resources we want to share based on this episode: "When Religion Hurts You", Dr. Laura E. Anderson https://a.co/d/06nSsmL7 *Dr. Anderson's website*: ⁠Laura Anderson | Religious Trauma Expert (drlauraeanderson.com)⁠ *National Domestic Violence Hotline* 800-799-7233   ⁠⁠https://www.thehotline.org/⁠⁠  *National Mental Health Hotline* 866-903-3787   ⁠⁠https://mentalhealthhotline.org/⁠⁠  ______ Thank you for listening!

Dr. Laura Anderson–a licensed psychotherapist, trauma resolution coach, religious trauma consultant, speaker, author, and educator. I am on a mission to provide religious trauma-informed support and resources to survivors of and those helping survivors of religious trauma, adverse religious experiences (AREs), faith deconstruction, cults, spiritual abuse, and leaving high demand/high control systems. Connect with The QUEEN: Website: https://drlauraeanderson.com/ | Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drlauraeanderson/  Get your copy of When Religion Hurts You here: https://bookshop.org/p/books/when-religion-hurts-you-healing-from-religious-trauma-and-the-impact-of-high-control-religion-laura-e-phd-anderson/19692233?ean=9781587435881  Connect with Maggie: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hello_deconstructionists/ | Email: hello.decons@gmail.com Learn more about Amy's music: Amy's Website: ⁠⁠https://www.amyazzara.com/⁠ ⁠⁠ | Foray Music: ⁠⁠https://www.foraymusic.com/⁠⁠ | Amy's Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/amyazzara/⁠

I am beyond excited to have the renowned Dr. Laura Anderson (@drlauraeanderson), a therapist, trauma resolution and recovery coach, writer, and educator, to discuss the psychological complexities of a high-control religion. She shares her insights on navigating the challenging journey of DECONSTRUCTION and reclaiming one's AUTHENTICITY.   In this episode: Understanding ADVERSE RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCES and their impact beyond trauma The power of CURIOSITY, SELF-COMPASSION & PATIENCE in the questioning process Dr. Laura, on strict religious obedience: "High demand religions typically require individuals to DIVORCE THEMSELVES from their BODIES and move exclusively into their MINDS."   Laura has a Ph.D. from Saybrook University and is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She specializes in complex trauma with a focus on domestic violence, sexualized violence, and religious trauma. Her bestselling book, "When Religion Hurts You: Healing From Religious Trauma and the Impact of High Control Religion," offers a compassionate guide for those on the path of healing and liberation.   WATCH our episode on my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SoulRoseShow  ... Follow Dr. Laura on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drlauraeanderson/ Join Dr. Laura's year-long course: "Religious Trauma and Politics": https://ctrr.podia.com/religious-trauma-and-the-election-cycle Dr. Laura Anderson's book: "When Religion Hurts You: Healing From Religious Trauma and the Impact of High Control Religion”: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BW12SBFC Follow me on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cherie.burton/ Join my new MINDBODY Soul Membership: https://www.cherieburton.com/mindbody-membership Get my Free WHOLE BODY Healing Mini-Course:  https://www.cherieburton.com/freeminicourse Ask to join our private Facebook group, Soul Rose COMMUNITY, for exclusive content and free monthly, live sessions & classes!  https://www.facebook.com/groups/353442392180748/

In episode 33 of The Cult Next Door Podcast, "When Religion Hurts You: with Dr. Laura E. Anderson", hosts Mattie and Ashleigh welcome first time guest Dr. Laura Anderson to the CND conversation. Dr. Anderson is a psychotherapist, trauma resolution and recovery coach, educator, and creator who specializes in complex trauma with a focus on domestic violence, sexualized violence and religious trauma. She is the founder and director of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, an online coaching company where she and the other practitioners work with clients who have experienced high demand/high control religions, adverse religious experiences, cults, and religious trauma. And, she is co-founder of the Religious Trauma Institute and the author of the book When Religion Hurts You: Healing from Religious Trauma and the Impact of High Control Religion, a book we cannot recommend enough!In this episode, Dr. Anderson shares her own story of growing up in fundamentalism and what eventually led to her exit. We discuss high control religion, Adverse Religious Experiences, and the impact trauma has on the nervous system. Dr. Anderson also gives listeners some tips on ways to regulate the nervous system and begin to heal.  Resources: You can find Dr. Anderson on Instagram @drlauraanderson where she provides daily content offering wisdom and encouragement for those healing from religious trauma. You can also schedule an appointment with a counselor who specializes in high demand/high control religions, adverse religious experiences, cults, and religious trauma through the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery:https://www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/Listen to Dr. Anderson's podcast, Sunday School Dropouts on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts.For more information about the Religious Trauma Institute, check out the website. https://www.religioustraumainstitute.com/

In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Laura Anderson, an esteemed author and therapist specializing in religious trauma. With her extensive background in psychology and her unique insight into the complexities of religious trauma, Dr. Anderson offers valuable perspectives on healing and recovery. She shares her own story of separating from her church and unraveling religious ideology.Join us as Dr. Anderson delves into the psychological impacts of religious trauma, sharing real-life stories and practical advice for those on their healing journey. We explore the challenges individuals face, and effective therapeutic strategies for overcoming these deep-seated wounds. Dr. Anderson also discusses her latest book, offering listeners a glimpse into her groundbreaking work and how it can aid in personal recovery.Whether you've experienced religious trauma firsthand or are looking to support someone who has, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in for a thoughtful conversation filled with compassion, expertise, and hope for a brighter future.Learn more about Dr. Laura Anderson + Buy Laura's book When Religion Hurts You here!Subscribe to I'm Fine, Could Be Better!Follow Amber Autry!Follow Melanie Reese and Trauma Therapy of Nashville!If you have a story to share email us at imfinesometimes@gmail.comProduced by Kaylee Harmon - Dewey Comedy ProductionsMusic composed by James Witchell

Zoe & Georgia loved this conversation, and we don't even know where to begin!The incredible Laura joins us for a candid conversation around solo parenting, balancing raising a baby with work, and so much more.Laura's Favourite Products:SnotsuckerWhite NoiseMs Rachel (on YouTube)DoonaRapidCoolListen by clicking ‘Play', subscribe or follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Acast, and please do rate and review to help others find the podcast.Find a new episode every Tuesday & Friday and in the meantime check out Made By Mammas on Instagram: @madebymammas.Made By Mammas®, this has been an Insanity Studios production. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

While mainline denominations are seeing a overall decline in attendance, exvangelicals, a term that denotes former evangelical status, are part of a growing online community who are outspoken about why they've left the church. In Nashville, evangelical culture is everywhere — think Bible verses on your favorite donut store's boxes, prayer at social gatherings or the common practice of incorporating a gospel song into a set. With guest host Marianna Bacallao, we explore the experiences of exvangelicals in Nashville. Are the city's exvangelicals finding support from one another, and if so how? This episode was produced by Magnolia McKay. Guests: Marianna Bacallao (host), Reporter, WPLN Holly Meyer, religion news editor, Associated Press Rev. Diane Dowgiert, Reverend, First Unitarian Universalist Church of Nashville Mike Maeshiro, ex-pastor, consultant for queer and deconstructing Christians Heather Mae, artist, activist, and songwriter Eve, ex-evangelical content creator, and host of Chewed Gum Live Dr. Laura Anderson, therapist, religious trauma resolution coach & consultant, author of *When Religion Hurts You: Healing From Religious Trauma and the Impact of High Control Religion.* Further Reading and Listening Reorganized Religion by Bob Smietana and The Great Dechurching, by Jim Davis and Michael Graham. For more about dechurching trends in the United States, Pew Research released two studies fairly recently: In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace and How the Pandemic Has Affected Attendance at U.S. Religious Services. Last fall, the AP released a report called, The Nones, about people who self-identify as “nonbelievers or unaffiliated with any organized religion.” You can find additional background coverage by listening to the past This is Nashville episodes: The growth of LGBT-affirming churches 1. *[The role of Black churches in Middle Tennessee](https://wpln.org/post/episodes/the-role-of-black-churches-in-middle-tennessee/)* 2. *[The Southern Baptist Convention report: What it means for abuse survivors and the faithful](https://wpln.org/post/episodes/southern-baptist-convention-sexual-abuse/)*

4-27-24 Driving With Dave Featuring Dr. Laura Anderson - Finding Your Inner Bliss! www.patreon.com/daveneal for premium livestreams and private chat!

(Airdate 4/22/24) You can always count on us to give you the ‘Good, Bad, & Ugly Headlines' in your national news round up. Today is the official ‘Earth Day 2024' Celebration on KBLA! Dr. Nii & KBLA Chief Visionary Officer Tavis Smiley hit the streets to go ‘Digging Deeper Into the Headlines' and interviewed Compton Mayor Emma Sharif and Congresswoman Laura Anderson. Never miss a moment of the ‘Quiet Part Out Loud'. Last, but not least, ‘Let Me Finish' with some reflections on key issues

Dr. Laura Anderson is a psychotherapist, trauma resolution coach and consultant, writer and educator specializing in complex and developmental trauma, dynamics of power and control and religious trauma based out of Nashville, TN. ✖️✖️✖️Resources Mentioned:–  https://amzn.to/3TQgdso✖️✖️✖️If you or someone you know has experienced abuse, visit courage365.org/need-help✖️✖️✖️CONNECT WITH THE SHOW:preacherboyspodcast.comhttps://www.youtube.com/@PreacherBoyshttps://www.facebook.com/preacherboysdoc/https://twitter.com/preacherboysdochttps://www.instagram.com/preacherboysdoc/https://www.tiktok.com/@preacherboyspodTo connect with a community that shares the Preacher Boys Podcast's mission to expose abuse in the IFB, join the OFFICIAL Preacher Boys Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1403898676438188/✖️✖️✖️**DISCLAIMER: I may receive affiliate commissions through some links shared in these show notes.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/preacher-boys-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

One of our Most Loved episodes from Season Three, exploring common misguided perspectives of anger and how befriending our anger can help us heal.Dr. Laura Anderson is the cofounder of the Religious Trauma Institute, and founder of Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery she's a licensed therapist, and professor of psychology. Instagram//Facebook: @drlauraeandersonSupport Groups https://www.tearsofeden.org/support-groupsPodcast Collaboration Form https://www.tearsofeden.org/formListen to Trauma and Pop Culture: https://www.katherinespearing.com/trauma-and-pop-cultureUncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you're enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastGet more info on Pop Culture and Trauma podcast on Instagram @katherinespearing

How does one unlearn the rigid beliefs of purity culture? This week, Dr. Kate is joined by Julia and Jeremiah of Sexvangelicals, a a podcast, educational platform, and community building project offering the sex education the church didn't want you to have. The three of them unpack: • The impact that these environments can have on one's relationship to pleasure and sex • The sense of grief and loss that can come hand in hand with the freedom of exiting high control environments • Redefining the role of importance that sex plays in your life and so much more! Be sure to check out Sexvangelicals podcast to gain insight on giving yourself permission to be a sexual person, navigating the deconstructing process, and healing from the ways that Christian communities may have gotten it wrong. RESOURCES MENTIONED: When Religion Hurts You (book) by Laura Anderson Sunday School Dropouts (podcast) by Laura Anderson and Andrew Kerbs A special thank you to this episode's sponsor, VIIA HEMP! Head to Viiahemp.com and use the code GETNAKED to receive 15% off + one free sample of their sleepy Dreams gummies. (21+). Happy Holidaze! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Listen to the 20-minute Utterly Heretical after show episode that Nate & Shelby recorded debriefing this conversation with Dr. Laura Anderson Dr. Laura Anderson tackles religious trauma, explaining it as our physiological response to religious experiences, distinct from the events themselves. She critiques purity culture for its detrimental effects on personal development and relationships, advocating for a more nuanced understanding of the Bible and recognizing its flaws. The conversation extends to the challenges churches face in addressing trauma, the variety of Christian views on mental health, and navigating relationships amid political and religious differences. Become a member and get: 1. Bonus episodes of Utterly Heretical (our private podcast) every month 2. All full-length episodes 3. Access to our private community of 350+ listeners Become a member: almostheretical.com/subscribe Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Clinical child and family psychologist Dr. Laura Anderson talks about gender noncomformity in children and explores the link between autism and gender dysphoria and gender fluidity. Connect with Tilt Parenting Visit Tilt Parenting Take the free 7-Day Challenge Read a chapter of Differently Wired Follow Tilt on Twitter & Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Support the podcast on Patreon.com/PreacherBoys✖️✖️✖️Dr. Laura Anderson is a psychotherapist, trauma resolution coach and consultant, writer and educator specializing in complex and developmental trauma, dynamics of power and control and religious trauma based out of Nashville, TN. On this episode we are diving in to the 2024 election cycle.We will not be discussing political candidates or encouraging you to vote for a certain person or with a certain party. However, we will be discussing the various triggers, coping mechanisms, and relational confusion that comes up and how to navigate it in an embodied and safer way. For more from Dr. Laura Anderson on the subject, check out her course:https://ctrr.podia.com/religious-trauma-and-the-election-cycle✖️✖️✖️If you or someone you know has experienced abuse, visit courage365.org/need-help.✖️✖️✖️CONNECT WITH THE SHOW:- preacherboyspodcast.com- https://www.facebook.com/preacherboysdoc/- https://twitter.com/preacherboysdoc- https://www.instagram.com/preacherboysdoc/To connect with a community that shares the Preacher Boys Podcast's mission to expose abuse in the IFB, join the OFFICIAL Preacher Boys Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1403898676438188/Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/preacher-boys-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

UNLOCK my full conversation with Dr. Laura Anderson on Adverse Religious Experiences: https://www.patreon.com/posts/5-common-adverse-97677702Purchase a copy of When Religion Hurts: https://amzn.to/3uBgoiTAbout When Religion Hurts:Religious trauma is something that happens far more often than most people realize. But religious trauma is trauma.In When Religion Hurts You, Dr. Laura Anderson takes an honest look at a side of religion that few like to talk about. Drawing from her own life and therapy practice, she helps listeners understand what religious trauma is and isn't, and how high-control churches can be harmful and abusive, often resulting in trauma. She shows how elements of fundamentalist church life—such as fear of hell, purity culture, corporal punishment, and authoritarian leaders—can cause psychological, relational, physical, and spiritual damage.As she explores the growing phenomenon of religious trauma, Dr. Anderson helps listeners embark on a journey of living as healing individuals and finding a new foundation to stand on. Recognizing that healing is a lifelong rather than a linear process, she offers markers of healing for those coming out of painful religious experiences and hope for finding wholeness after religious trauma.✖️✖️✖️If you or someone you know has experienced abuse, visit courage365.org/need-help.✖️✖️✖️CONNECT WITH THE SHOW:- preacherboyspodcast.com- https://www.facebook.com/preacherboysdoc/- https://twitter.com/preacherboysdoc- https://www.instagram.com/preacherboysdoc/To connect with a community that shares the Preacher Boys Podcast's mission to expose abuse in the IFB, join the OFFICIAL Preacher Boys Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1403898676438188/*as an Amazon associate, I receive a small commission on purchases made.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/preacher-boys-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

On this episode, I talk with Dr. Laura Anderson: therapist, trauma resolution and recovery coach, writer, educator, and creator, about her vast expertise in Religious Trauma. We shape the conversation around different facets of her newly published book: When Religion Hurts You: Healing From Religious Trauma and the Impact of High Control Religion. This is a subject I have wanted to discuss in depth on the show for quite some time, as healing from religious trauma has been a significant aspect of my own mental health journey. Laura and I discuss some of the nuances of religious trauma (such as purity culture, fundamentalism, and abusive dynamics of power and control) through the lens of our own personal experiences, but also broaden the discussion into psychoeducation about trauma in general, and dismantling some of the more common misnomers. I hope this conversation is helpful and healing to anyone who can relate.  CW: discussion of detailed themes of religious trauma throughout  Follow Laura's work and various projects here! ⁠⁠Psyche Magic Patreon, Website, Socials and more!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠NEW 1:1 Dream Coaching⁠⁠⁠! As a reminder, detailed show notes with all referenced material from the episode (as well as plenty of other fun bonus resources) are available to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ subscribers! --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/jordan-hale1/message

Content warning: religious trauma & talk about triggersWelcome to the LAST guest episode of Mindful Minds!! As a little thank you, I have released my religious trauma sticker collection!! You buy the stickers on Etsy here!This week we have a super special guest. I am so excited to welcome Dr. Laura Anderson (she/her) to the podcast!! Dr. Laura's work has been so impactful in my personal deconstruction journey, and it was such an honor to have her on the show. Dr. Laura Anderson (PhD, Saybrook University; LMFT) is a therapist, trauma resolution and recovery coach, writer, educator, and creator who specializes in complex trauma with a focus on domestic violence, sexualized violence, and religious trauma. Laura has a private practice in Nashville, Tennessee, and is the founder and director of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, an online coaching company where she and the other practitioners work with clients who have experienced high demand/high control religions, adverse religious experiences, cults, and religious trauma. In 2019, Laura cofounded the Religious Trauma Institute with the goal of providing trauma-informed resources, consultation, and training to clinicians and other helping professionals who work with religious trauma survivors. You can find Dr. Laura on social media at @drlauraeanderson , @traumaresolutionandrecovery , and @religioustraumainstitute . You can also visit her website. Dr Laura's new book, “When Religion Hurts You: Healing from Religious Trauma and the Impact of High Control Religion” is out now! Products & Services we LOVE:- Skouts Honor: We are HUGE fans of Skouts Honor. Their probiotic products saved our pup from SO much itchiness. If you use code MINDFULMINDS at checkout, you can get 20% off of a purchase of $50 or more! Keep those pups happy & itch free. - Buzzsprout: I started my show with NO podcast experience and Buzzsprout made it so easy. If you are looking to start a podcast, or find a new host, try Buzzsprout! Listeners will receive a $20 credit by using our link and you'll be supporting the show. Please rate us 5 stars and leave us a review! You can find all things Mindful Minds here. You can buy our sticker collection here. You can also follow us on Instagram (@mindfulmindspod) or on Tik Tok where I do a lot of deconstruction content (@mindfulmindspod). Join our brand new Facebook group!! Mindful Minds is owned and operated by Serafina. All content belongs to Serafina. Please feel free to contact us at mindfulmindspod@gmail.com for any and all questions, sponsorships, or guest requests!

This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Today we welcome Wise Jezebel and former fundie Dr. Laura Anderson to the ALBC huddle. She's a psychotherapist, podcaster, and smarty-pants content creator specializing in helping people come back from the sneaky scars of high control religion. She's also the author of the next book you need to read. Seriously. We cannot recommend it enough and it's called: When Religion Hurts You: Healing from Religious Trauma and the Impact of High Control Religion. Dr. Anderson is here with us to talk about her story, the ways and means of culty church trauma, and the non-linearity of the healing process. In case you need another reminder that toxic churches, some mainstream American religious communities, and even your culty as fuck personal development organization can be traumatizing: This episode is for you. Let the unpacking commence. NOTES:  Dr. Laura Anderson, PhD, LMFT is a therapist and trauma resolution and recovery coach in private practice specializing in complex and developmental trauma and the dynamics of power and control of culty religions. She's a writer and educator who specializes in religious trauma. She's founder and director of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, an online coaching service for folks recovering from adverse religious experiences and cults. And she co-founded the Religious Trauma Institute, a training institute focused on helping the helpers in their trauma-informed healing work. You can listen to her on her own podcasts The Wise Jezebels and Sunday School Dropouts. She lives with her dog, Phoebe, in Nashville, Tennessee.   Find her online on her own website,  on her own podcasts The Wise Jezebels and Sunday School Dropouts,  on and social media: @drlauraeanderson: Instagram (also TikTok & FB),  @traumaresolutionandrecovery (IG & Facebook) @religioustraumainstitute (IG & Facebook) @wisejezebelspod (IG) @sundayschooldropoutspod (IG) Hashtags: #religioustrauma #whenreligionhurtsyou   Though our pod spans the culty religious fallout gamut, this one pairs well with the June two-parter Shiny Happy Wife: Tia Levings on Christian Fundamentalism (Tia Levings is co-host of The Wise Jezebels) and Leaving the Fold: Dr. Marlene Winell on Religious Trauma Syndrome. See also: Our episode about Attachment Theory with the deep and amazing Alexandra Stein. Also…Let it be known far and wide, loud and clear that…   The views and opinions expressed on A Little Bit Culty do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast. Any content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything. Nobody's mad at you, just don't be a culty fuckwad.   OTHER LINKS: Check out our lovely sponsors Join ‘A Little Bit Culty' on Patreon Get poppin' fresh ALBC Swag Support the pod and smash this link Cult awareness and recovery resources   CREDITS:  Executive Producers: Sarah Edmondson & Anthony Ames Production Partner: Citizens of Sound Producer: Will Retherford Co-Creator & Writer: Jess Tardy Theme Song: “Cultivated” by Jon Bryant co-written with Nygel Asselin  

Brian Lee shares his personal story of experiencing spiritual abuse and what led him to start Broken to Beloved, an online summit and support resource for survivors. Register for the Broken to Beloved Summit January 23-26, 2024 HEREBrian Lee is a pastor, coach, and speaker. As a survivor of spiritual abuse and religious trauma, he has spent his time since leaving vocational ministry in 2021 working to provide recovery and resources for fellow victims and survivors. In 2023, he created and founded Broken to Beloved, a nonprofit organization that exists to help other victims and survivors through its Annual Summit and seasonal Cohorts, while also providing trauma awareness and safeguarding practices to pastors, leaders and churches.Based in Richmond, VA, Brian loves to go on outdoor adventures with his family, explore their neighborhood, community, and city, find good parks, enjoy good food, and have fun together. As a coffee snob and addict, he could always use another cup. Transcript (Transcript is unedited for typos or misspellings): Katherine: hey, Brian. Brian: Hey, Katherine. How's it going? Going? All right. How about you? Doing, Katherine: doing well, doing, doing okay for doing okay. Or a Tuesday. Brian: It's just for the end of the month slash year slash the world is losing its mind. Katherine: Right. I know like there's been a lot of moments this week where somebody will say something about Christmas and I'm like, Oh, that's, that's on Sunday.Yes. Okay. We are, we are still, there is still Christmas. Yes. Well, thanks for joining me. I am really excited to talk to you about your summit that you are hosting and curating in January for Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month. At the time this episode comes out, it will already be January. So I'm really excited to hear about that.I got to participate in that [00:01:00] last year. We'll be participating again this year. Great time to just connect with other people working in this spiritual abuse, recovery, religious trauma, recovery space, and also. Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month for folks who are not aware is in January. And we were talking before we started recording about when we first heard about Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month.When, when was it for listeners that you first Brian: heard about it? I just learned about it last year because, and I, but to be fair, I've only been doing this work for about a year now. I wish I knew about it sooner. And I think we were both saying it's like, we can't find who originated this thing. But it's been around for at least 20 years, which to me is crazy.Yeah. I learned about it because of Aaron hung, who's an artist who was doing that whole AZ trauma recovery series on her Instagram page. And I was like, spiritually, it'd be some awareness a month. That's a thing. And then the more I dove into it, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is absolutely a thing. And it's been around a long time.Why do we not know more about it? Katherine: Exactly. I was wondering too, when, [00:02:00] when did that book, the oldest probably. Documented writing about spiritual abuse is probably the subtle power of spiritual abuse. I Brian: think that's what I was thinking. Yep. And that was, I think it was written in the 90s. I want to say, okay, I'm going to look for a publication date because I want to be sure.But I remember reading it thinking I was like, did they just write this like a year ago? And it's like, no, it's been around for a very long time. Yeah, Katherine: yeah, yeah. And then even just like the reality that PTSD. Was not an official diagnosis until the 80s. Brian: Yes. Katherine: Yes. We're very new in this trauma world. Yes.We're all very new to this. This is a new, new territory for all of us. Did you, did you find the Brian: date? Amazon says the publication date is 2005, but that seems late to me. I feel like it was before that. It has a very nice Katherine: cover. Brian: It does! Which is why I feel like it is. So now I'm opening my Kindle to look for the actual copyright date on the inside of it.Yeah, Katherine: maybe that was the most [00:03:00] recent Brian: publication. That's what I'm wondering. Library, look for the yellow book right there. The yellow book. Yeah. That's what I call it. The yellow book. Copyright page. 1991. You were right. Boom. Boom. First time. Katherine: First time. Yeah. So I guess that's the first time that that became something Brian: that.People and for reference to me that feels like 10 years ago, but it's 32 years ago.Yes, I know that tells you how old I am feel like that long ago, but because it wasn't it wasn't Katherine: Yeah, I know because i'm like i've lived Yeah, I've lived longer in the 2000s than I lived in the, in the, in the, in the 1900s, 1900s or so. Brian: It's been a while. How dare you? Yes, we are, we are, we're getting, we're getting up there.We're getting up there. Yes, yes we are. [00:04:00] Speaking of Katherine: age, actually I have nothing. Nothing to say about it. I'm just trying to segue talking about broken to beloved, which is your summit that's coming up and to get us started. I would love to hear whatever you feel comfortable sharing about your spiritual abuse story and how can you, you said that you discovered this word, right?Or this phrase, spiritual abuse, this term fairly recently, when did you, maybe just to start out, when did you first hear the term and did you have an aha moment like many of us Brian: do? Gosh, when did I first hear the term? I honestly don't even know, but it was probably from one of the books that I started reading that validated that experience for me.It might have been K. J. Ramsey's book The Lord is My Courage, and I read it more as a, oh, maybe this will help me in a [00:05:00] dark season, and that's one of my favorite psalms anyway, so, and then I didn't realize she was going to go into their whole spiritual abuse story, and then I am a person who reads all the footnotes and then goes and finds all the primary resources and reads those, so Katherine: that's favorite reader.They were like, we put this in here for you. Brian: Yes. Well, and that's, I love footnotes. So, so because of her, I think is, is how I found the subtle power of spiritual abuse. And then from there, I went down the rabbit hole. I mean, something's not right. Redeeming Power, Church Called Tove, Try Softer, Narcissism Comes to Church, you know, all these books.And now in the last two years, I've read over 40. Five books on that topic, which seems overwhelming because it kind of is, but it all came out of my personal experience, right? So I left my last church in July of 2021. I had been there for just about three years, I think. And I walked into that church.[00:06:00] My wife and I have both moved here saying to each other it would be really nice if this works out And if it doesn't because we've already been hurt before I think we're done with ministry for a while Which feels kind of crazy to walk into a church saying that like this is the last stop Yes.Basically. Yeah. Not indefinitely, not forever, but for a while, we're going to just give this a break because we're done. And so, you know, my story goes back over 10 years now, I think I worked at a Christian college as the marketing, as the graphic designer for the marketing department. I had also attended and graduated from that college, which isn't unusual.But it was a completely different experience being a student there than it was being on staff there. And I didn't know what to do with the cognitive dissonance of looking at leaders that I respected and admired Who seemed to preach the gospel and talk about servant leadership and humility and all these things But then I would be sitting in meetings I was like I don't know who this person is who is so [00:07:00] angry and belittling and demeaning and authoritarian and all these pieces And so finally leaving that environment I need to ask you a Katherine: question, just like following up on that, because I feel like that's such a common theme of like the, what you preach and what you teach is not who you are.And I just, I just hear that all the time. And just was talking to someone about the other day about her father, who was a pastor and he. He was a pastor and he would preach these things about like parenting and then he would like not be that type of parent. And I'm just curious from the experience that you had what, what is your take on that of like, why, like, you obviously know what's right.Where, where is this disconnect happening because you can preach it enough to convince people then what's happening here. What's your Brian: [00:08:00] take on that? My take for the last two or three years now has been, it all boils down to the need for power and control. And this message is going to work and this message is going to work.And so the secondary or maybe even tertiary word that comes out of that is optics. It all comes down to optics and the way things look and appear so that I can maintain power and control. And so if I can maintain this image of, then I will continue to have power and control and influence over these people as long as they don't see behind the curtain.And if they do see behind the curtain, it doesn't matter because I control them anyway because I'm their boss, right? Or because I am their spiritual authority or leader or whatever it is. So I, it's wrecking. Man, there's so many ways I can go so the last pastor I had would often say things like when I first started.It's like you have to recognize the hats that you wear when you walk into a room. So I know that I'm the [00:09:00] pastor. So I know that there's a power dynamic. So I had to be aware that when I'm leading a conversation or that there's going to be a shift in something somewhere. But then this is the same guy who would absolutely manipulate that power dynamic.Yeah, or pretend that he was the servant or the victim or the low man on the totem pole is like you don't get it both ways. Like so. So I know that you cognitively know these things to be true. And yet I see you do the polar opposite. And then use those things to twist them to your advantage. Yes. In the way of whether ignorantly or intentionally, both are worse, harming someone else in the process.Katherine: Yeah, and that is the crux of spiritual abuse and why it is devastating and so damaging and so complex and so confusing is like these people are preaching these good messages that they are aware are quote unquote good messages, but [00:10:00] using that intentionally to manipulate and control people. So then these good messages.suddenly become infused with this thing that makes us just terrified. Brian: Poison. It's poison. Katherine: Yeah. And we're just, we're just like, I can't even engage with this, even though some of this stuff is really good, you know, that. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and yet it just causes this. Massive cavern of, of just fear and doubt and trauma.Brian: Yes, I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes from, too, is because, because so much of it is truth, right? Or is based on quote, good intentions or scripture or whatever it is, but then you see it manipulated and twisted. So now you don't know what to believe or what's true or good anymore.Right, and you can't Katherine: trust good people who are saying absolutely, it's like absolutely walk into a room and you're like, are they good or [00:11:00] not, you know, just, just being able to trust, even just what people say and like, and then you're kind of in evangelicalism and church culture, you like you walk into a church and and everyone's believing the same thing.Well, Are, are they, are they, are we, are we all on the same page here? I talked to someone the other day that like teaches their children just because someone is a pastor doesn't mean they're interpreting scripture actually accurately. And I was like, okay, that's a very wise thing to teach your child, but so sad that you're saying.has led you to teach that to your child. Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Same. Well, and I've heard, I've heard parents and other people just like, because normally we instruct our kids to pay attention or listen to the grownups. And I've heard other grown up, other adults and friends say, it's like, actually, that's not always true because grownups won't always tell you the right thing to do, or they might be wanting to hurt you in some kind of way.And it's like, I hate that we have to teach our kids that, but it's, that's [00:12:00] the way of the world today. And it's just really unfortunate and sad and grieving. Katherine: Yes. When you're allowed to be afraid of Santa Claus. Yes. Brian: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yes. That's okay if you're afraid. So trust your gut on that one.Yeah. So anyway, so I went through that experience three times in three different environments. Three times. The first time, not necessarily in a row, but very close. So the first time at a college with an older leader, mentor, figure, admired. Second time with a, someone who very young and then I had a short break for about two years and then ended up where I was now with someone who's basically my contemporary.But it's just getting it, getting hit from all sides of it. And I had had enough. So when we left, when I left the church in July of 21, I was like, I am absolutely done for a while and I've got to figure all of this out because I don't know why it keeps happening to me, you know, a result of all the gas lighting is like, it must be my fault.So it must be something wrong in the denominator. [00:13:00] Exactly. And we had already been seeing our counselor therapist for a while. So we just kind of dove into the topic head first. It's like, I just, I'm in a tailspin. I don't know what to do. Like, I don't know which way is up right now, and I just help. Just help.And she, she is a trauma informed therapist, which was extreme. I'm grateful for, because that's not why we started going to her. But that helped to process all of this stuff and then finding these books and finding these resources and chasing the rabbit holes got me to the place was like, okay, I can name spiritual abuse.I can define it. I can name trauma and define it. And after about a year and a half. Of doing that work and processing through the trauma and the abuse. I was like, I think I might be in a place where I feel like I'm doing better and I'm not doing great, but I'm definitely better than I was. And I think I actually have a framework for how I want to help other people because everywhere around me, I see people dealing with the same thing.And I hate that we're all here. Katherine: [00:14:00] Absolutely. Did you have, when you were like doing research, did you have something that you, how are you defining it at the time? You just calling it church hurt. What were you Googling? Brian: What were the things that you? Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I think it starts with church hurts.That's kind of the phrase that people hear. And then once I got my brain around the term spiritual abuse, I was like, Oh, okay. And then of course everyone quotes, the body keeps a score. So I forced myself through that one. And then through that one learned, learned trauma and then found books on religious trauma and started doing that whole thing.So just coming up with definitions and just kind of collecting all these in a master Google doc for my brain and figuring it out from there. Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. And then at what point did you say? Yeah. So you said that I want to help people and help make sense of this. Where did the vision for broken to beloved come from?Cause last year was the first year, right? April, wait, I guess that's this year, right? [00:15:00] Brian: Yeah, it is. Yeah. April of this year. Yeah. 20, 23 at the time. So it didn't start as broken into beloved. It started as a six week cohort, which I call through, which is based on the children's book. Going on a bear hunt because we can't go around it.Can't go over it. You just got to go through it. Right. And that came up from a friend, Amy. I was speaking at her summit. She does an Enneagram summit and I also do Enneagram coaching, but she said, what do you want to talk about? I was like, this sounds crazy, but. Do you want to talk like, can I talk about like spiritual abuse?She goes, what? We have to do that. And so it just got all my wheels turning and then that's what kind of turned into the cohort. So I, I created a framework for a six week cohort to lead people. You know, and the story of that is like, because I over identified myself as broken for so long, I literally walked into this last church interview with the pastors and elders and said, Listen, they were like, hey, why should we hire you?And my answer was, well, actually, you [00:16:00] don't want to hire me because I'm damaged goods. Let me just disqualify myself to you now because you don't want me because I'm broken and I'm really damaged. So you don't want me here. And so I recognize that I was wearing that as my identity. And so through KJ Ramsey's book, through all these other books that identified Wade Mullin, something's not right and all these other things, it's like, Oh, okay, so maybe I'm not the problem.Yeah, maybe there's stuff broken in the system and it's not to say I'm not blameless for a lot of things because I certainly am but it was Developing a framework for what does it look like to move out of my brokenness and to actually name the things that have happened to Me because we can't heal what we can't name.So naming things is really important Recognizing where I am in time and space so that I can pull myself to the present and recognize when I'm safe when I'm not When I'm triggered or activated when I'm not And then using all the polyvagal theory stuff that she includes in there. And then [00:17:00] recognizing how embodiment is so important and breath practices and mindfulness things and moving forward so that we can recognize, identify, and then embrace our belovedness as our actual identity, not our brokenness.So the cohort came first in October of 2022. It went really, really well. I did it again in January of 23, which is the beginning of the year that we're recording. And so coming out of those two cohorts, I was like, man, it seems like there's an audience for this and a need for it. And all the books that I have read have done a really great job defining terms for me.They do a good job of validating experiences and telling stories. I've read almost nothing that offers what now? Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Like, I just don't know what to do. Like, okay, great. Thanks for sharing the information, but what do I actually do now? Cause I still feel stuck. So the whole point of the broken to beloved summit, which came from the bookends of the cohort of starting broken and ending beloved [00:18:00] was to invite all the authors that I had read and the resources that I had found online, get them in one place and just say, great.What now? What now? What now? And to make it practical, right? So the whole tagline I use for everything is finding a pathway toward healing and wholeness. When Katherine: you were describing yourself as broken when you would walk into these interviews, what did that mean to you? Was that yeah, expound on what that meant and then how is that showing up for Brian: you?I don't know if I've ever been asked that question. I just felt broken. Like my whole brain was. I'm just unsure of what to believe or what was right or wrong. I'm also an Enneagram One, which is very right wrong, black white minded. I always think I have to do things the right way. So for me It was always a, well, if I was fired from this place, or if I had to leave because I was so toxic, what did I do wrong?But other people [00:19:00] loved me, and it was just this group, so maybe it was, maybe it was them, but maybe it was me, but I'm not sure, and I think I'm really good at my job. And people tell me I'm good at my job, but the pastor just told me I'm not and that he needs to replace me because the board told him so even though they've never given me feedback in any of my reviews that anything needed to change when I've been asking for them for years.So it's, it's all that kind of stuff that in your brain messes with you. It's also the the second place that we left, we were friends with. The pastor and his wife, we graduated together. We were alumni together. I was like, we thought we were friends. We hung out at each other's houses. And then to do something like that and to feel so stabbed in the back, really It was a, it was just kind of whiplash, right?It's like, what, what, what happened there? And so what's wrong with me and what's wrong with my relationships? Cause I thought we were okay, but apparently not because then this happens. So walking into this last interview to just say, Hey, I'm damaged goods. I'm broken. I mean, that's really what it was. And then I had [00:20:00] had two years at another church where I.Genuinely thrived for two years. And I was like, Oh, there's actually a different way to do things. Yeah. And I didn't realize that. And then we experienced more trauma. One of our best friends passed away tragically in a car accident. And so that threw everything into tailspin and dealing with the aftermath of that.So it was just kind of like, Hey, we're really not in a good place right now for a transition or for something to change. And yet I felt so. Bound is not the right word I'm looking for, but I'm going to use it by the whole idea of. If God wants to do something here, I don't want to close the door and say no.And I don't say that to over spiritualize anything or myself, but it's just the words that came out of my mouth at the time. So we just kind of kept going with the process. And I remember the first several weeks slash months of having started this job, just trying to be really vulnerable with people and honest, just like, listen, I, I don't come here pretending I'm perfect in any [00:21:00] way I'm really broken right now and we need help. Just so you know that, and I might have some answers or help for you, but I'm coming at it from a position of brokenness and the more I do this work, the more I recognize how okay that really is.Katherine: Yeah, and it kind of sounds like as you're describing. What brokenness was to you? It sounds like trauma, but it sounds like internalized trauma of this is somehow my fault, like these outside messages and this trauma that I'm experiencing is due to something. Brian: Yeah. Potentially. Well, and isn't that part of the toxic theology that a lot of churches teach is like that you are responsible for your sins and how they label everything as sin.So if something bad happened in your life, it must be your fault because you weren't holy enough. You didn't pray enough. You didn't whatever [00:22:00] enough. Right. And it's like not. Not taking into account any of the effects of abuse where the abused actually did nothing. It's like when a woman gets raped, Oh, what were you wearing?How did you contribute? What perfume do you have? It's like, come on, really? But that's where I was mentally, emotionally, all the things. Katherine: Yeah, and that thin layer of, like, you must be sinning or God is, like, sanctifying you and is allowing these happen, these things to happen to, like, grow your faith or, you know, and, like, getting to that place, naming, as you said, getting to that place where you just, you're just able to point out it and to say this was not okay, period.Like should never have happened. We should never should never have had to go through this like this was never an okay thing when you got to your church, the last church and you like was this the church that you were [00:23:00] saying I am broken and I am damaged goods. Yes. And then that Brian: obviously didn't go did not pan out.Was Katherine: that used against you Brian: was what part used against me? The fact that you were Katherine: open about your brokenness. Brian: Yes and no, I would say by the pastor. Yes, because I think in the kindest way I can say this possible, he's a master manipulator. So I think he knew us coming in and me saying those things up front and they pitched themselves very much as, oh, well, we are a healing church.We're a place where people come so they can just receive and sit back and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And but then, you know, six months, two months, four months, two years later, they're saying, Oh, you're still praying for that thing. You're not healed yet. Are you not over that yet? Right? It's that kind of stuff.And so those are the major red flags that go up. It's like, maybe this is not such a great place. Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. So pitching themselves as a healing place and then, and then not. [00:24:00] Not so Brian: much. Yeah, maybe you used to be but not so Katherine: much today. How would you say? broken to beloved is Creating a space that you would say is just like healthier than that Like how how are you seeking to make that a healthy space for Brian: people?Mm hmm. That's a great question. Thank you I don't know cuz I'm still figuring it out. One of the first words that comes to mind is honesty and trying to be honest about Whatever it is that we are feeling or naming or experiencing because one of the things I've learned is that when we try to push away or repress any of those things, we often get ourselves in trouble because it's something is trying to be expressed there.And it doesn't mean that we. Allow rage or ranting to take place just because because there are safe places to do to do that too, but probably not within a general community, right? Within an intimate relationship, [00:25:00] maybe, but not within a an open space. So I think the honesty piece is one of them. I think the openness is another.Another word that comes to mind is kindness. I think there was an interview I did last year with David Gate, who does all that kind of typewriter poetry, which I love. And he said something that really has stuck with me ever since. And it's this idea that you can have all these progressive, or not progressive, all these fundamentalist Christians.Or conservatives or evangelicals or whatever you want to call them who go through this process of abuse and or trauma and then deconstruction and then leave the church or whatever it is, but they don't actually examine or change anything and they just switch over to progressive liberalism or progressivism or whatever it is, and they're still fundamentalists at heart.Absolutely. And I think the fundamentalist piece, the certainty that so many people carry. Doesn't make room for curiosity [00:26:00] and kindness which I think embodies a lot of what I'm trying to do is to be open and curious and kind because I also see voices online who just come across as angry all the time.It's like, I get it. There's room for that. I'm angry too. But, and there are times that I drive by the church and I'm like, can we just burn it all down? Sure. Right. I feel all that, but it doesn't, I don't feel helped or served by it. Yeah. The Psalms, when I did an interview this morning, and the Psalms are 75 to 80 percent imprecatory and lament, so there's plenty of room for honest, raw emotion, but there's also a time and place for it, and it doesn't have to be public, and I don't, actually, here's, here's a good thing, I don't need everyone to agree with me.Because your experience is your own and you need to figure out how you're going to process it. Here's how I've processed mine and I'm not going to prescribe anything to you that you should do it this way too. But I'm going to approach it with openness [00:27:00] and kindness and curiosity and hopefully safety.Yeah. Katherine: Yeah. And I think like that. Openness, kindness, curiosity can create that safety and, and, and having that space where people can come on their own journey and find their own, their own, yeah, like find their own, their own path. And, and, and that's also just sort of like, Anti the opposite of what we experienced in the church of like, only me, the person with the, you know, title can tell you what is helpful and what, what God is really saying and putting that agency back into each individual person is sweet.Not what we were taught church and we were taught not to trust ourselves in the church context. And so, yeah, I love that, that openness, openness, kindness, and curiosity. I love it. What are some of your hopes and [00:28:00] dreams for the summit?Brian: I hope that it's helpful. I hope that it feels practical for people. I hope that people walk away with a sense of, I mean, the three words I use most often are hope, healing, and wholeness. And I say that knowing that there is real harm done when others try to prescribe a timeline to your healing. That healing is not a destination, right?And I think Laura Anderson just wrote about this in her book. It's like healing is not a destination. It's not an arrival point. It's something that we are just Doing probably for the rest of our lives. So when I say that, it's not like, Hey, show up to the summit and you will be healed. Absolutely not. But I do hope it gives you really practical tools that you can walk away with and say, Oh, this thing will help me.Right. This thing will help me to take a step. And so we had 1, 200 people register last year, which blows my mind for trying something for the first time. [00:29:00] So I it would be great to have as many or more. Not because of numbers, because God knows I hate numbers because so many churches are driven by it. But the idea that people are helped.And and moved in that direction of healing and wholeness and hope, I think so many of us who go through this kind of abuse or trauma walk away feeling so isolated, broken, like you're saying, with a lack of agency or not empowered that my hope is that you walk away with a sense of hope, feeling empowered and a sense of agency to take control of something in your life because so much of it has been stripped away from you.I think those are the kinds of things I hope for. Yeah, Katherine: absolutely. And I think even just the reality that we can like walk into a space and it's, you know, 18 or whatever speakers all speaking on something similar. And so there's this awareness that like, at least all of these people have, have, have some experience with this thing.I've gone through this or understand this and that [00:30:00] validation of like, yes, oh, people are talking about this. And people see this as something that is really important and causes a lot of pain and deserves attention, deserves an entire summit. I think that that in itself is, is So validating and so helpful.What's, what is some information about this? What can you tell us about how folks can find the summit register if they're ready for it?Brian: Sure. We do have dates. We will be January 23rd through 26th. Last year was 3 days. I learned that was too short to pack that many speakers talking about trauma and abuse. So I'm spreading it out over 4 days and I'm inviting less speakers. So it's not so overwhelming every day. If you go to BrokenToBeloved. org slash subscribe, you can join my mailing list, which is where I'll probably send information first. Or you can just follow me on Instagram, which are where I post when I have time to[00:31:00] at BrokenToBeloved.Okay. All Katherine: right. I'll all of this information in the show notes Brian: so folks can read it. Thank you. Katherine: And I'm very excited to be there and to be a part of it, watch all of the speakers. And is there anything else that you want to share about broken to beloved the cohort. Your journey, Brian: anything? No, I, I mean, we are like you, a 501 C three.So if you're looking for someone to support or an organization, this is the work that we're trying to do. So you can just go to same broken to beloved. org and you can find all the stuff there. I'm super grateful for you and your work and having stumbled across you last year. I, I love and support the stuff that you're doing as well.Grateful to have you at the summit twice now. Um, And just love doing the work with you. Katherine: Yeah, so I'm glad to partner in this with you as well. Thanks so Brian: much. Thank you.

Dr. Laura Anderson, therapist, speaker and author of the new book When Religion Hurts You: Healing from Religious Trauma and the Impact of High-Control Religion, sits down with Tim to discuss her book. Dr. Anderson explains her background and why she wrote her book. Tim and Dr. Anderson break down over-used psychological terms and how they should really be applied. They also discuss the difference between spiritual abuse and adverse religious events. Lastly, they discuss what factors create high-control religion and the tools to process the ramifications of that environment. Read Dr. Laura Anderson's Book Follow Us On Instagram @thenewevangelicals   Support Our Work Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dr. Laura Anderson, PhD. is a psychotherapist, trauma resolution coach and consultant, writer and educator specializing in complex and developmental trauma, dynamics of power and control and religious trauma. In this episode of Cheaper than Therapy the Podcast, we sat down with Dr. Anderson to discuss all things spirituality and religious trauma, and about her book “When Religion Hurts You.”

In When Religion Hurts You, Dr. Laura Anderson takes an honest look at a side of religion that few like to talk about. Drawing from her own life and therapy practice, she helps readers understand what religious trauma is and isn't, and how high-control churches can be harmful and abusive, often resulting in trauma. She shows how elements of fundamentalist church life--such as fear of hell, purity culture, corporal punishment, and authoritarian leaders--can cause psychological, relational, physical, and spiritual damage. Subscribe now to Pure White: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pure-white/id1718974286 To Donate: venmo - @straightwhitejc Paypal: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/BradleyOnishi Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/straightwhiteamericanjesus Linktree: https://linktr.ee/StraightWhiteJC Order Brad's book: https://www.amazon.com/Preparing-War-Extremist-Christian-Nationalism/dp/1506482163 For access to the full Orange Wave series, click here: https://irreverent.supportingcast.fm/products/the-orange-wave-a-history-of-the-religious-right-since-1960 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://swaj.supportingcast.fm

Links to things mentioned:Our marriage survey is still open! We're looking for married couples to take it. https://baremarriage.com/grimJoin our Patreon for as little as $5 a month, and get access to our incredible Facebook group, unfiltered podcasts, and more! https://patreon.com/baremarriageHelp us raise $52,000 by Christmas to expand our reach and make inroads into academic circles! BOSKO LINK HERELaura Anderson's book When Religion Hurts You https://amzn.to/3sB0ZhsFind Laura on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drlauraeanderson/Our Merch: order before December 10 to use it as Christmas gifts! https://sheilawraygregoire.com/product-category/merchandise/Our book She Deserves Better, outlining some of the trauma messages teen girls receive, and our book The Great Sex Rescue, outlining vaginismus as a potential trauma response

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Is it possible that the very institutions meant to bring solace and guidance can be the ones causing distress and anguish? This was one of the many thought-provoking questions posed on a recent episode of "Hidden Killers," a popular podcast hosted by Tony Brueski. In this intriguing episode, Brueski is joined by Dr. Laura Anderson, a seasoned psychotherapist and religious trauma consultant.    Religious trauma, though often overlooked, is becoming a topic of increasing concern in both therapeutic and societal circles. Brueski dives right in, referencing high-profile cases of religious abuse, such as the one surrounding Josh Duggar. These harrowing stories exemplify how deeply religious beliefs, often distorted and extreme, can damage individuals and entire families.    For those outside these situations, it seems almost straightforward: "Why wouldn't you do things this way?" Brueski poses. Yet, Anderson's in-depth explanation reveals a complex web of indoctrination, fear, and a loss of self. Drawing a comparison between high-control religions and domestic abuse, Anderson underscores the startling similarities. In both scenarios, the "perpetrator or abuser…seek to take away your independence, your autonomy, your sense of self identity, and they replace it with theirs."    The case of Anna Duggar, for instance, serves as a poignant example. Despite her high-profile family, Anna remains deeply entangled in a cycle of abuse, exacerbated by her lack of education, lack of means for self-sufficiency, and the powerful religious beliefs of both her family and in-laws. As Anderson aptly puts it, for Anna and many others, "Where is she going to go? What is she going to do?" Escape is not as straightforward as it might seem.    One of Anderson's main therapeutic goals is to help individuals reconnect with their own voice. Questions like "Who am I?" and "What do I really think?" can be life-changing for someone who's been trained to suppress their individuality and desires.    Anderson also highlights how religious institutions, and many groups outside religion, prey on innate human desires for certainty, stability, and safety. By presenting a clear dichotomy of 'good' and 'bad,' such institutions can manipulate and control adherents through fear, particularly the fear of severe consequences like eternal damnation.    However, why this desire for control? Brueski questions. Anderson posits that, in many cases, it's a blend of the quest for power in patriarchal systems and the longing for safety and certainty. She recalls reading about the origins of world religions and how they often evolve similarly: a need for understanding and certainty leads to rule creation, which then spirals into further rules to solidify power structures.    Religion, at its core, can offer solace, purpose, and community. However, as Brueski reminisces about his childhood experiences with religion—like coloring disturbing biblical scenes in Sunday school—it becomes evident that these teachings, especially when misinterpreted or taught with a malicious agenda, can have lasting traumatic effects.    So, as listeners absorb the revelations from this enlightening discussion, another question emerges: How can society differentiate between genuine spiritual guidance and manipulative control? As episodes like this on "Hidden Killers" unveil the dark corners of faith, it's a question we should all consider. Want to listen to ALL of our podcasts AD-FREE? Subscribe through APPLE PODCASTS, and try it for three days free: https://tinyurl.com/ycw626tj Follow Our Other Cases: https://www.truecrimetodaypod.com The latest on Catching the Long Island Serial Killer, Awaiting Admission: BTK's Unconfessed Crimes, Delphi Murders: Inside the Crime, Chad & Lori Daybell, The Murder of Ana Walshe, Alex Murdaugh, Bryan Kohberger, Lucy Letby, Kouri Richins, Malevolent Mormon Mommys, Justice for Harmony Montgomery, The Murder of Stephen Smith, The Murder of Madeline Kingsbury, and much more! Listen at https://www.truecrimetodaypod.com

Is there a dark side to certain religious environments that fosters an atmosphere conducive to heinous crimes? The latest episode of the "Hidden Killers" podcast, hosted by Tony Brueski, dove into the murky waters of religious trauma, high control religions, and the association of certain crimes to specific religious communities. Dr. Laura Anderson, a psychotherapist and religious trauma consultant, shared her expert insights, shedding light on some disturbing patterns that have emerged over the years.    Brueski brought up a disturbing trend he's noticed, particularly within the LDS (Latter-day Saint) community. "If you just look statistically at the amount of people who are members of the LDS church, versus the amount of major crimes and horrible things that we're hearing... It's very much out of whack proportionally," he expressed. Citing numerous cases, including the infamous Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case, Brueski questioned the role of the church's environment in creating such narratives.    Anderson's response was thoughtful but alarming. While she clarified that she could not diagnose anyone outside her professional circle, she did comment on the behaviors. She stated, "...these are natural environments for sociopathic and psychopathic behaviors... environments that are prime for crimes for narcissism, or at least narcissistic behavior." She further expanded on the environment cultivated within certain religious sects, noting that such environments create "boxes" that get smaller and more constrictive, often defined by a select few, leading to warped understandings of ethics and morality.    Beyond the LDS, Anderson pointed out the prevalent issues within other religious groups, such as the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist group, which the Duggar family is associated with, and other sects. Many of these groups operate under a mandate of "dominion" or domination, believing they have a divine right to have control over various sectors of society. This mindset, combined with a belief in persecution, creates a fertile ground for cognitive distortions, allowing for atrocious acts in the name of God.    One of the most compelling points of the conversation was the issue of oversight and accountability. Brueski posed a pertinent question, "Are we at a point where we really need to re-examine our laws and the protections that religious organizations have?" Many religious groups have managed to bypass scrutiny due to the separation of church and state, but the consequences of this lack of oversight can be dire.    Anderson emphasized the intricate relationship between politics and religion in the U.S., suggesting that legislators are well aware of the potential fallout of targeting one religious group: "...they know that at some point that's going to be turned on them because the same standard is going to be applied to them." The financial implications, the potential backlash, and the ties between religious organizations and political entities make this a complex issue to navigate.    The discussion between Brueski and Anderson serves as a stark reminder of the potential pitfalls that can arise when religious environments become too insular, encouraging members to commit heinous acts in the name of faith.    But here's a question to ponder: If our society is hesitant to critically examine religious practices due to fears of persecution or backlash, where do we draw the line between faith and fanaticism? Want to listen to ALL of our podcasts AD-FREE? Subscribe through APPLE PODCASTS, and try it for three days free: https://tinyurl.com/ycw626tj Follow Our Other Cases: https://www.truecrimetodaypod.com The latest on Catching the Long Island Serial Killer, Awaiting Admission: BTK's Unconfessed Crimes, Delphi Murders: Inside the Crime, Chad & Lori Daybell, The Murder of Ana Walshe, Alex Murdaugh, Bryan Kohberger, Lucy Letby, Kouri Richins, Malevolent Mormon Mommys, Justice for Harmony Montgomery, The Murder of Stephen Smith, The Murder of Madeline Kingsbury, and much more! Listen at https://www.truecrimetodaypod.com

Can deeply entrenched religious beliefs inadvertently shield and even perpetuate abuse? This perplexing question arose during a recent episode of the "Hidden Killers Podcast" with Tony Brueski. He invited Dr. Laura Anderson, a prominent psychotherapist and religious trauma consultant, to demystify the layers surrounding religious trauma.    In the discussion, Dr. Anderson sheds light on a crucial distinction: "Trauma is not the thing that happens to us, but it's the way that our body responds or our nervous system responds to the thing that happens to us." This means that while abuse might be the root cause, it doesn't necessarily equate to trauma. Instead, trauma stems from how individuals internalize and react to abusive incidents.    One could wonder, how do religious organizations inadvertently or even actively contribute to this dynamic? Dr. Anderson pointed to several red flags typical of high-control religious groups that can pave the way for trauma. These range from isolation, where individuals are urged to associate only with those deemed appropriate by the religious hierarchy, to strict information control, where members are told what they can read, watch, or listen to.    Furthermore, in many high-control religions, rigid definitions of gender and sexuality exist, typically placing men in power roles above women. This often leads to abusive behaviors, backed by justifications of doing it "in the name of God." Spiritual abuse takes many forms, with threats and accusations being commonplace. For instance, if one strays from the religious path, they may be warned that they are now susceptible to harm, both in the physical and spiritual realms. One stark example is Scientology's "fair game" concept, where those who leave the Church become targets for various forms of harassment.    However, the insidiousness of religious trauma often lies in its subtlety. As Dr. Anderson states, "Oftentimes there's consequences for saying no to those things." A church's seemingly benign requirements, like donating a certain amount or adhering to specific dress codes, may seem trivial at first. Yet, over time, these "tiny things" accumulate, gradually chipping away at an individual's autonomy and identity.    Taking a more specific example, Brueski brought up the controversial case of the Duggar family, members of the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church. The incident involved Josh Duggar's sexual abuse of his sisters, with his parents, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar, seemingly dismissing the severity of the situation. One might ask: how could seemingly moral parents act this way, seemingly prioritizing their faith over the well-being of their children?    Dr. Anderson's answer delves deep into the foundational beliefs of many high-control religions: the idea that humans are born sinful or evil. In this perspective, sin is expected, and when one sins, it's a "God problem" and not necessarily a legal issue. Dr. Anderson elaborates, "When you sin, then it's a God problem. It's not a legal problem." Consequently, the solution is often sought internally within the religious community, sidelining the legal and societal implications of the abusive action.    This protective stance isn't unique to the Duggar case. From the Catholic Church to the Southern Baptist Church, many religious institutions have grappled with scandals, often opting to "deal with it in-house" rather than confront the issue openly.    Concluding their discussion, Brueski and Anderson highlighted the broader implications of religious trauma, urging society to be vigilant and question the structures that may enable such behaviors.    So, we return to our initial inquiry with a twist: how can society recognize and address religious trauma effectively while respecting the sacredness of individual beliefs? Want to listen to ALL of our podcasts AD-FREE? Subscribe through APPLE PODCASTS, and try it for three days free: https://tinyurl.com/ycw626tj Follow Our Other Cases: https://www.truecrimetodaypod.com The latest on Catching the Long Island Serial Killer, Awaiting Admission: BTK's Unconfessed Crimes, Delphi Murders: Inside the Crime, Chad & Lori Daybell, The Murder of Ana Walshe, Alex Murdaugh, Bryan Kohberger, Lucy Letby, Kouri Richins, Malevolent Mormon Mommys, Justice for Harmony Montgomery, The Murder of Stephen Smith, The Murder of Madeline Kingsbury, and much more! Listen at https://www.truecrimetodaypod.com

Religion is often viewed as a sanctuary for the soul, a haven where one can find solace, guidance, and a sense of belonging. But what if the very institutions people turn to for peace and understanding are the sources of their pain? A recent episode of the "Hidden Killers" podcast with Tony Brueski delves into the delicate topic of religious trauma, shedding light on a subject often cloaked in silence and ambiguity.    "A lot of us brought up in churches and religious organizations, and we're always kind of taught. No, this is a good, safe place," Brueski began. Yet, he quickly pointed out the contrast, highlighting that for many individuals, their religious experiences are far from serene, and for some, they're outright traumatic. The concern? How society tends to dismiss the questionable actions or practices under the umbrella of "religion," hindering a closer scrutiny.    Dr. Laura Anderson, a licensed psychotherapist, trauma resolution coach, and religious trauma consultant, joined Brueski to shed light on this often-overlooked subject. Anderson herself has a personal history with religious trauma, growing up in what she refers to as a "high control religion" and having a father who was a director at a fundamentalist church camp. Her deep-rooted experience within the religious realm, combined with her professional expertise, makes her perspective invaluable.    "Religion has colloquially and culturally been looked at as a very pro-social factor," she explained. Anderson draws attention to the fact that religious trauma is not always about overtly heinous acts like clergy sexual abuse. More often, it's about how religion influences one's identity, worldview, and daily interactions. The trauma arises when these institutions, which are meant to provide safety and support, turn into sources of persistent harm.    It's vital to understand that the conversation is not about disparaging religion as a whole. As Brueski emphasizes, this is about recognizing the darker underbelly that can exist within religious spaces. "Let's be more aware of what we are accepting and saying is safe and okay before we just say it's safe and okay because someone's holding a cross," he noted.    The danger is when religion becomes a tool of manipulation or grooming. This grooming isn't just about sexual misconduct; it often extends to behavioral control, justified under the guise of "divine directive." When individuals are told they're acting in line with God's will or a higher power, it creates a powerful, often unbreakable, hold on their actions and beliefs.    Anderson's insight on how religious trauma manifests is particularly telling. She categorizes it under "complex trauma," which differs from the single incident traumas commonly associated with PTSD. Complex trauma encompasses persistent threats and emotional overwhelm that seem inescapable over a long duration. The effects? A myriad of physiological and psychological issues ranging from hypervigilance, social phobias, and autoimmune disorders to anxiety, depression, and OCD.    For those wondering if they might have experienced religious trauma, Anderson suggests looking into symptoms of complex PTSD. The key is recognizing that the trauma doesn't vanish just because one has ceased to believe or left a particular institution.    Religious trauma is an intricate issue that touches on the very core of one's identity and belief system. The conversation between Brueski and Anderson serves as a poignant reminder of the importance of critically examining all institutions, including religious ones, ensuring that they serve as genuine sanctuaries and not sources of distress.    In a world where faith and spirituality play such pivotal roles, isn't it time we confront the shadow side of religion and ask: how can we make religious spaces genuinely safe for all? Want to listen to ALL of our podcasts AD-FREE? Subscribe through APPLE PODCASTS, and try it for three days free: https://tinyurl.com/ycw626tj Follow Our Other Cases: https://www.truecrimetodaypod.com The latest on Catching the Long Island Serial Killer, Awaiting Admission: BTK's Unconfessed Crimes, Delphi Murders: Inside the Crime, Chad & Lori Daybell, The Murder of Ana Walshe, Alex Murdaugh, Bryan Kohberger, Lucy Letby, Kouri Richins, Malevolent Mormon Mommys, Justice for Harmony Montgomery, The Murder of Stephen Smith, The Murder of Madeline Kingsbury, and much more! Listen at https://www.truecrimetodaypod.com

This week's guest is is Dr. Laura Anderson, author of the book When Religion Hurts You: Healing from Religious Trauma and the Impact of High-Control Religion. We talk about the definitions of trauma and abuse, what drew her to this work, the importance of embodiment, and more. Find all the ways to follow Laura online at https://drlauraeanderson.com/ Support this podcast with a subscription to The Post-Evangelical Post newsletter. Subscribe for free or upgrade to $5/month or $50/year to get ad-free podcast feeds. Learn more at postevangelicalpost.com - As noted in the intro, I want to acknowledge that two days after my last episode was published, the war in Gaza began. I'm not the person to listen to in this moment. Here are some essays that have spoken to me and helped me understand this moment: "a lot of things are true." by Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg "Speech and Speechlessness," by Talia Lavin "The Children Are Ours," by Camille Hernandez Churches for Middle East Peace, October 12th letter. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://www.postevangelicalpost.com/about

Day LaBont talks to a psychotherapist (Dr. Laura Anderson, When Religion Hurts You) about healing vs. fundamentalist hopping. Dr. Laura Anderson: @drlauraeanderson Get her new book - out October 17th! When Religion Hurts You: Healing from Religious Trauma and the Impact of High-Control Religion Sign up today at butcherbox.com/MEGA and use code MEGA to receive ground beef for life plus $20 off your first order.  Go to HomeChef.com/MEGA for 18 free meals! Register for MyBookie at mybookie.website/MEGA50 and use code MEGA50 with your first deposit to receive a 50% deposit bonus up to $1,000, plus $10 casino chip on the house! -- SHOW INFORMATION Mega HQ Get ad free + bonus content with MEGA PREMIUM Support Us on Patreon Instagram: @MegaThePodcast Twitter: @MegaThePodcast Follow Holly and Greg Holly Laurent: Twitter | Instagram Greg Hess: Twitter | Instagram Music by Julie B. Nichols Edited by Makenzie Mizell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices