Reformed Brotherhood | Sound Doctrine, Systematic Theology, and Brotherly Love

In this solo episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal tackles the concerning theological trend of "Divine Council Theology" and its recent resurgence within Reformed circles. He offers a critical analysis of Michael Heiser's influential work and its problematic popularization by Reformed figures like Doug Van Dorn and John Moffitt. Tony demonstrates how redefining the biblical term "Elohim" to include both God and created spiritual beings in the same ontological category fundamentally undermines the creator-creature distinction essential to Christian orthodoxy. Through careful examination of systematic theological categories, communicable and incommunicable attributes, and implications for Christology, he reveals why this seemingly academic redefinition poses serious threats to biblical monotheism and classical Reformed theology. Key Takeaways Divine Council Theology, popularized by Michael Heiser and now being promoted within Reformed circles, attempts to redefine "Elohim" as a functional category that includes both God and created spiritual beings. This theological trend commits an etymological fallacy by redefining the predominant usage of "Elohim" (which refers to the God of Israel in ~2,300 of 2,600 occurrences) based on minority usages. The approach dangerously blurs the fundamental creator-creature distinction that is essential to Christian monotheism and orthodox theology. Proponents incorrectly classify divine power as a communicable attribute rather than recognizing omnipotence as an incommunicable attribute that cannot be shared with creatures. The theological system makes problematic analogies to the incarnation, showing a confused understanding of the hypostatic union and potentially opening the door to Arian implications. This theology represents a concerning return to concepts the early church fathers fought against when confronting pagan Greek thought, rather than a retrieval of biblical teaching. Departing from the "pattern of sound words" handed down through church history in favor of novel interpretations should raise significant warning flags. Key Concepts The Creator-Creature Distinction The most fundamental division in Christian theology is not between spiritual and material beings, but between the uncreated Creator and everything else that exists. Divine Council Theology dangerously undermines this distinction by placing God and created spiritual beings in the same category of "Elohim." While proponents acknowledge God as the uncreated Creator, they nevertheless insist on categorizing Him alongside angels, demons, and other spiritual entities based on shared attributes of power or function. This categorization system parallels pagan worldviews more than biblical theology, where God exists in a class of one. By defining "Elohim" as a functional category related to spiritual power rather than an ontological one, this approach inadvertently returns to a hierarchical view of spiritual beings with God merely at the "top of the totem pole" rather than in an entirely separate and unique category of existence. This framework subtly but significantly undermines biblical monotheism by suggesting God shares a fundamental nature with His creatures. Communicable vs. Incommunicable Attributes Divine Council Theology mishandles the traditional theological distinction between God's communicable and incommunicable attributes. In classical Reformed theology, communicable attributes (like love or wisdom) can be shared with creatures in a limited, analogical way, while incommunicable attributes (like omnipotence, eternality, or divine simplicity) belong exclusively to God and cannot be shared without making the creature into God. Proponents of Divine Council Theology erroneously suggest that the power denoted by "Elohim" is a communicable attribute that God shares with spiritual beings, rather than recognizing omnipotence as properly incommunicable. This misclassification creates theological incoherence: if God could truly share His omnipotence with creatures, those creatures would effectively become equal to God in power, creating the logical impossibility of multiple omnipotent beings. This confusion of categories demonstrates how this theological system fails to maintain proper distinctions that are essential for preserving the uniqueness and transcendence of God in Christian theology. Memorable Quotes "Christianity and biblical Judaism—the primary distinction is not between spiritual and matter... The primary distinction when we're talking about the most absolute line is the distinction between the uncreated creator and his creation." "Rather than rely on the safe time-tested words and concepts that have been proven and validated, and attacked and defended and have been victorious for hundreds and thousands of years... Moffitt and Van Dorn think it is smarter and safer to depart from the pattern of sound words rather than to keep the pattern of sound words because they think that they are able to look at the Bible the way basically no one ever has in the 2000 years of the church and find something they haven't." "These teachings are pagan. This is talking about returning to a world populated by spiritual beings, and God is kind of just on the highest part of the totem pole... We're just returning to something that the early church fought hard to get rid of when they came out of their pagan culture." Resources Mentioned Reformed Arsenal article series on Divine Council Theology Full Transcript [00:00:24] Introduction and Episode Setup Tony Arsenal: Welcome to episode 461 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I am Tony, and today it's just me. Hey, brothers and sisters. We had a little bit of a scheduling conflict this week, so Jesse is taking the week off and uh, it gives me an opportunity to talk about something that I've been doing a little bit of research on. [00:00:47] Affirmations and Denials Tony Arsenal: Hopefully the listener has noticed that Jesse and I have been trying to keep our affirmations and denials a little bit tighter so we can get into the meat of the episode a little bit quicker. But occasionally we do run into a denial, usually a denial, but we run into a denial that, uh, we often say this could be an episode of its own. And so today is one of those episodes. So I'm not gonna give you my normal affirmation or denial. I'm just gonna jump into it. Now this is gonna be a little bit off the cuff. I've been doing some research, so I may not have as much of the receipts as the kids say, um, as I normally would. But I am writing a series of articles on this issue over@reformedarsenal.com. I'll make sure to put the link to the first article in the show notes. All of the receipts are there, all of the timestamps for the podcast episodes that I'll be. Discussing your critiquing. Are there citations for research work that I'm doing? All that stuff is there. So if you're interested in digging into the meet and you're the kind of guy who, or girl who likes to nerd out in the footnotes, then head over to uh reformed arsenal.com. You'll find the series pretty quick. [00:01:56] Introduction to Divine Counsel Theology Tony Arsenal: What I wanted to talk about today, and I'm glad we have kind of a whole episode, uh, to talk about it, is a movement, uh, that has some foothold in reformed theology. Uh, it's not new, uh, it didn't start in reformed theology, but for some reason, uh, those who are within our orbits tend to be a little bit enamored by this kind of theology. I'm not exactly sure why. [00:02:19] Michael Heiser's Influence Tony Arsenal: This theology is often called Divine Counsel Theology, and it was really, um, you know, it's not entirely new even with, with this figure, but it was really made popular and sort of, um, spread about and made accessible by the late Michael Heiser. Um, part of this is because he was just a very winsome, uh, guy. He took. Sort of highfalutin academic concepts and was able to bring them down to, uh, to an understandable level, including things like ancient near Eastern context, biblical, you know, ex of Jesus Hebrew language, other ancient near Eastern languages, which of course, that's that kind of stuff is what this podcast is all about, taking difficult, sometimes technical concepts. Talking about them, translating them into kind of the language that everybody else speaks. So that project was fine. The issue is the direction that he goes with a lot of the theology. So Michael Heiser writes a book called Unseen Realms, which is seen as kind of a retrieval of the supernatural mindset and worldview of the Bible. Uh, there's a lot to be commended about that, uh, enterprise, about that intention. I do agree with part of what he has to say when he says that we've lost a lot of the supernatural context of the Bible. Um, but I think where he goes with it is a direction that we really ought not go and we'll dig into it. [00:03:43] Critique of Reformed Fringe Podcast Tony Arsenal: The reason this is coming up now is because recently there's been a series of articles and podcasts put out by a show called The Reformed Fringe. Uh, some if you're in the Telegram chat, which you can join at, uh, t Me slash Reformed Brotherhood. You've already seen some of this stuff. We've already talked about it a little bit. But the Reformed Fringe is a podcast that sort of tries to fill a space that's something like Haunted Cosmos, which we've talked about before. Um, fills sort of looking at the weird fringe kind of things in the world. Ghosts, paranormal activity, trying to explain it through a biblical, uh, lens or worldview. Again, that's a commendable. Effort. There are strange things that happen in our world that are not easily explainable or at all explainable by natural, uh, naturalistic means. And so coming to those things with the Bible as our, uh, rubric to instruct us on how the world works is a commendable thing. But again, this project, which is by and large, um, and we'll get into maybe, but by and large is just an extension of, um, Heiser's project really goes in directions that cause all sorts of problems down the road. So the podcast is, uh, run by a guy named Doug Van Dorn, who most of the audience probably hasn't heard of. I have had run-ins with Doug over the years. Um, the last time I ran into him actually was revolving around similar kinds of issues that I'm gonna be calling out today. Um, and it, it ended up with him kind of having to depart from the reform pub, uh, maybe to put it a little bit politely and, um. You know, he has, he has taken, he's theology, which was not explicitly reformed. Heiser was not a reformed guy. He had no claims to be a Calvinist in many ways. Uh, he was sort of anticon confessional in, in that he opposed not the idea of a faith statement, but he sort of purported to come to the Bible with no biases, with no tradition. He wanted to approach what he called the Naked Bible. That was actually the name of his podcast before he died a few years ago. And so what Doug Van Dorn is, has done who, uh, Doug is a claims to be a 1689 Reformed Baptist. He's a pastor in Colorado, I believe. Um, he has tried to take this divine counsel theology and bring it into the reformed world. So he comes at it with a, a slightly different angle, but for the most part, his conclusions are the same. And in many cases he just straight up steals ER's work and doesn't cite it, doesn't do much to, uh, articulate that this is not his original research. Um, so he's taken that and he's trying to bring it into the reformed world. And Heiser himself was actually quite influential when I was a, an admin in the reform pub. We would run into lots of, lots of young reformed guys. Who were really enamored with this and they really saw, he's project as sort of a return to a pure form of exo Jesus that really got at what the Hebrew was saying. And it tickled, I think, kind of an intellectual, uh, an intellectual itch that a lot of those guys had combined with sort of this desire for the new and novel, um, which is in itself can be pretty dangerous. To sort of make things a little bit more pressing, Heiser has teamed up with John Moffitt, who many of our listeners may know. Uh, he's one of the co-hosts and founders of the podcast, Theo Cast, uh, which otherwise is a perfectly fine podcast. Um, he's also a 1680 or claims to be a 1689 Reform Baptist. He's a pastor. Um, their podcast is sort of what you would get if you had, uh, and I don't mean this to be pejorative, although maybe it is a little pejorative. Theo cast is what you would get if you took r Scott Clark. Uh, you made it much less intellectual and careful, and then made it Baptist. And what I mean by that is Scott's whole project. In large part is to recover and to emphasize the law gospel distinction. Theo cast has taken that and sort of cranked it up to 11. Uh, and they have um, they have sort of moved away from a lot of the classical reform distinctions of the law itself, so they don't full on deny the third use of the law. But in practice they would say that, um, good works is no kind of evidence whatsoever for your, um, for your faith. It's no kind of evidence of your, your salvation, which of course are confessions themselves. Um, say that there is a kind of evidential value to assessing our good works within certain reason and con. So the show is otherwise orthodox. You know, I I, I recall hearing episodes where they were refuting things like EFS, um, but because of that, Moffitt brings with him sort of an air of credibility and an error in orthodoxy that, um, the show itself probably hasn't merited. If Doug just recorded, pushed, play and put it on the. I don't think there would've been too much, uh, too much of a following. He would've probably, you know, grabbed a couple people who heard it and thought it was interesting. But because Moffitt has such a following on Theo cast, he brings with him a large audience, and that makes it particularly dangerous because his name attached to it makes it more widespread. It makes it feel like it's safer. And so I think a lot of people, uh, assume that what he's saying is orthodox and good. And I think what we'll find out is, is that it's not. So I think that's enough ProGo. [00:09:10] Elohim and Its Implications Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna go ahead and, and jump into explaining kind of what the theology that we're talking about is and, and what the problems are. So this all started kicked off, uh, with a series of podcast episodes and the first episode, and again, I don't have the specific titles here. I'll put a bibliography in the show notes on this one just so you have links to all the relevant episodes. Um, this all kind of kicked off with a podcast episode called something like The History of the Word God, or something like that. And, um, basically what Moffitt and Van Dorn want to do is they wanna look at the word Elohim in the Bible, which of course is a plural noun. Uh, in Hebrew, the, the suffix, just like in English, we might add an S or an ES, um, to a word to make it plural. Or in Greek, it's usually, if it's a masculine, uh, noun, it's, it's an oi or an omicron iota that sort of always sound at the end. Um, or when we, we talk about Latin, you have, you have like, um, you add the I at the end, so we say octopi instead of octopuses or something like that. Cacti instead of cactus. Although both of those are kind of pig Latins, um, in, in Hebrew for, uh, for masculine nouns. The suffix that you add to make it plural, is that eam sound. It's a, it's an Im if you transliterate in English. So the word Elohim is a plural of the original noun El which is a proper name for a eury deity. But it came to just be the singular word for, for God. Um, and, and in non-biblical language, we would say in a God. Um, and we do see in English, there are in, in Hebrew, in the Bible, there are places where we see the singular of this. It's kind of an older form, so it doesn't show up as much. Um, but by and large when we see the word Elohim in the Bible. Something like, uh, outta 2,600 references or more than 2,600 references in the Bible. Um, the word Elohim is associated with a single, a singular noun, and it only refers to the God of Israel. What Moffitt and Van Dorn want to do is they want to take this word and they wanna define it based on the abnormal. Uh, use of it. So the vast minority, minority of cases in the Old Testament, the word Elohim refers to the gods or to a non, like what we might say is lower G God, either like the God, Baal, or some sort of collective reference to the gods, the gods of the nation, or something like that. They wanna take the fact that there is this variation in the way the word is used and sort of radically redefine how the Bible uses it. And this, this is what I call and what a lot of people would call an etymological fallacy. So what they're doing is, instead of, uh, looking at the word and defining it based on how it's used in an, in an overwhelming fashion, they're looking at sort of the etymology of the word. And then they're using the fact that there are, uh, some pretty Dr. Dramatically minority cases where the word is used in a different way and they wanna redefine it and say, in, in all or most cases in the Bible actually. This is what the word means. So they look at the word L, which from its root has something to do probably with the, with the word for power or something like that. Um, they wanna look at it. And, you know, if you read someone like Vos in Reformed dogmatics in his volume one, he talks about how when we see the name Elohim for God, it denotes or, or refers to his sort of power, his omnipotence, which is all good and fine, just like we would say Yahweh. Uh, as a proper name refers to God sort of in his covenant role. It's his covenant name, his, his intimate, familial name that he shares, uh, with his people or he reveals to his people. Elohim is a more abstract name and it refers to God's power. Usually we see it in relation to his cre creation. So in Genesis one, um, when it's God created, it's Elohim created, which is also important and relevant for, for later. So what they wanna do is they want to say that Elohim actually. What Act Elohim actually means is it's a reference to a class of beings, spiritual beings, and that that it means sort of any spiritual being that has some type of supernatural power or enhanced power, some sort of spiritual power. They do this by saying that the noun is not an ontological noun, it's actually like a noun of function. Um, so like we would say a, a good example in English would be a painter that's a noun of function. It's a title of function. It any person could be called a painter if they engage in the verbal action of painting. And so what they're saying is that any being that engages in the action of having power. Is, uh, is an Elohim. And so that would include, in narrating at least, it would include angels, demons. Uh, I, you know, I don't know that they've said this explicitly, but I, I think Heiser would've included things like ghosts, disembodied spirits, um, humans in sort of the intermediary state might be considered Elohim humans in the, in the, um, this. Life are called Elohim, uh, in some instances. So, so this is where the Divine Council theology comes from, and that comes from Psalm 82, I think, where there's this council of Elohim that, that Yahweh seems to be speaking to and deliberating with. Or you look at Joe, where the sons of God come and they sort of pulled court in God's heavenly presence. So he would say those are examples where the, the collected Elohim. God being one of the Elohim are somehow gathered in this heavenly divine counsel. Now what this does is just devastating to Christian theology is it takes God who exists in a class of one. The, the, the God of the universe is, is the only uncreated entity in all of of the world. And so when we start to talk, and this is ironic, when we start to talk about the ways to divide up the world, the ancient world, the, the pagan world tended to divide the world between, um. Between spiritual and material. So think of g Gnostics where matter was bad and spirit was good. Or even think of something like, um, the Greek pantheons, the Greek, um, Greek religion, like ancient Greek mythology. You have sort of the spirits and the spiritual world and the gods inhabit a spiritual, have a spiritual existence for the most part. And then you have the physical world where kind of people live, uh, at least while they're alive. Christianity and, and Judaism, at least Biblical Judaism. On the other hand, the, the primary distinction is not between spiritual and matter. There is of course that distinction. There are humans, which are spiritual and material. There are animals which are entirely material, and then there are angels which are entirely spiritual. And so we would say that God is spiritual. So that is a distinction in the world. But the primary distinction when we're talking about the most absolute line is the distinction between the, the uncreated creator and his creation. So what Moffitt, Moffitt and Van Dorn do is instead of observing that biblical distinction, which really all of Christian theology and Christian monotheism rests on, they wanna say that instead, the distinction is between the. Um, is between the Elohim as the sort of spiritual beings and then sort of everything else of the created world, and so they wouldn't deny that God, that Yahweh is. The uncreated creator of all things, but they would say he's an uncreated Elohim and that there is a class of created Elohim. So I don't, I don't think you have to go too far down this road to see what this does. It puts God on the same level as his creatures in at least one way. Um, and I think we'll find out later, uh, as we talk through this, actually it does it in a couple ways that are really, uh, really can be problematic as we go. And so, uh, just let me be clear if all that, if all that Moffitt and Van Dorn were saying, if, if all they said was, um, we can use the word Elohim to describe any creature. Or God that doesn't have a body. Elohim is a synonym for the word spirit. Um, that wouldn't be the wisest way to speak, I don't think. It wouldn't be the, the most, um, felicitous or safe way to talk about the distinction. But it wouldn't be controversial. There'd be nothing wrong with that. It'd just be using a different word. It'd be like if I said, well, instead of the word spirit, I'm gonna use the word bibly bop, you know? So we have. We have God who is bibly bop, and we have the angels who is bibly bop, and humans are biblio bop. And also material, again, not the safest way to talk. There's no reason to use that alternative language when the Bible gives us perfectly legitimate language. Um, but it wouldn't be a problem. But Moffit and Van Dorn go. Way past this and maybe they don't realize it. I've asked them on Twitter, I asked them to clarify. I didn't get a response. So if they are hearing this, which maybe they will, maybe they won't. If they're hearing this, I would really love to get some clarification on some of these questions because I would love nothing more than to be able to say that this was all a big misunderstanding and that actually all they're saying is that there is this spiritual existence. That, um, we can put all things that are spirit without a body or spirit with a body. We can put all those in the same category and call that category Elohim. Again, I don't think that's safe, but if that's all they were doing, that would be fine. But we see in their episodes, and I'm gonna try to grab some quotes, um, from, from some of the articles I've written. But again, go read the articles because this goes way more in depth. It's got timestamps of it. It's got links to their episodes. Don't take my word for it. Go listen to their. Words and, and check, you know, check my math on this. But what they do is they actually start to, in, in an attempt to justify why it's okay to put God in the same category as his creatures. Um, and in at least one way, they start to make some weird statements that have a lot of systematic theology, um, implications that are, are just really, really risky. So, for example, one of the ways that they try to kind of explain this, I'm gonna pull, pull the article that I wrote up here. So, great podcasting. [00:19:34] Communicable vs. Incommunicable Attributes Tony Arsenal: Um, one of the ways they start to try to do this is again, they, they wanna say they use this distinction between incommunicable and communicable attributes, right? So in, in Christian theology, classically speaking, a communicable attribute of God is an attribute that he shares or could share with. A creature and primarily we're talking, you know, we're talking about attributes that he shares with his image bearers. So something like, um, love. Love is a communicable attribute. Our love is different than God's love, but when we say love, we're talking about the same basic category of things God loves differently than we do. But love and in a human sense, and love in a, in a divine sense, are still talking about the same thing. There's a point of contact there. Um, an incommunicable attribute would be something like, um, something like eternity. Right. Eternity is not just an extended infinite sequence of time. If it was, he could share that with us. Um, but eternity or infinity is an entirely different way of existing than a creature could ever, could ever exist in divine Simplicity is another example. Um, God could not make humans simple because simplicity entails all sorts of things like infinity. Um, eternality. Um, you know, omnipresence, omni, potent, all of these things are entailed by simplicity. So God could not make a creature infinite because in order for it to be infinite, it would have to be God. Uh, God could not make a creature simple, uh, in the, in the sense of no composition of parts. Uh, because that would mean that that creature is actually God and has no composer. So, so those would be the classic, uh, incommunicable attributes and omnipotence. Is considered, although it's a little bit weird, it sort of crosses the line in some ways. But omnipotence is considered. An incommunicable attribute. God cannot share his omnipotence with a creature because you can't have two omnipotence. Um, if you have two omnipotence, then those two omnipotence cancel each other out in some sense. If God, and, and, and he has a will, God wills one thing, and then I as a creature, if he shared his omnipotence with me, somehow willed a different thing, then we would no longer be, neither of us would be omnipotent. Where this goes sideways with Moffitt and Vandorn is rather than respect omnipotence as a an incommunicable attribute, they say that the attribute or the word Elohim denotes power or might, and that is a communicable attribute. So God does give us a certain level of power. He allows us a certain level of agency. He grants that to us. Again, I'm not even sure that we would call that an an. A communicable attribute. Um, but in a sense, I guess it is. And so they say here, um, Elohim does not mean omnipotent. It means power. It's not an incommunicable attribute. It's a communicable attribute that all kinds of entities could possess. So they're saying that the word, um, the word Elohim, uh, in the Bible denotes that a. A, an entity possesses a certain kind of power or acts in a certain role of executing a certain kind of power. And that doesn't mean omnipotence. It means it means potence. It means some sort of power. And so that that wielding power attribute that. Uh, being a, being that wields power, that attribute, whatever we want to call it, however we want to phrase it, that is a communicable attribute that God shares. He communicates that attribute to all other beings in the class of Elohim. Now, let's just back that up for a second. Um, this still would mean that God has to be the creator and they don't deny that, but it would still mean that God, prior to creation. Was an Elohim in a category of one, and then somehow he created a class and because he's extended. This attribute of wielding power, say power wielder, to try to make it actually more of an attribute. He's extended this attribute of power wielder to uncreate or to created angels, demons, human spirits, whatever other spiritual entities there might be. They would bring in things like principalities, powers, they have a whole, in other, other contexts, they'll talk about this whole different bifurcation of types of spiritual beings that I think is a little speculative, but not a big deal. He extends this power wielder attribute to these created categories. And instead of this now creating a separate category of power wields who are not God, it now is uh, he expands this category of one to now include all sorts of other things, which again, as you can, you can imagine, just runs into problems. And so the, again, this, this word Elohim appears over 2,600 times, and of these instances, 230 of them refer to the God of Israel. So the idea that that. This word is not used specifically as a reference to the God of Israel, or should not be thought of as uniquely titling or almost exclusively titling God. The God of Israel just doesn't really match the data, but it's also just really poor Exogenic method. So rather than take the predominant usage and look at the context. Understanding that the predominant usage is the predominant usage. Instead, we're gonna go back and say, well, these, these minority, these 300 or so cases outside, and not even all 300 of them are used the same way, but these 300 or so cases of them not referring to the God of Israel, we're gonna use that to redefine the word. Its entirety. It's just poor. It's just poor scholarship. It's overly speculative. Um, I haven't read much of. He's work on this in the primary sources. Um, I, I would venture a guess that Heiser makes a much more robust argument than this. And this is part of the problem. When you take an already speculative, already dangerous theology and you try to pop popularize it when you just don't have the same chops that he did, uh, you end up really making some crass, simplistic arguments that just make you look a little silly. To think we can take 200 or 2,600 instances and redefine 2 20, 300 of them. By the way, it's used 300 of the times Just doesn't make any sense. So it again, if, if all we are saying is that God is spiritual and angels are spiritual and so there is some point of affinity between the two, then that would be okay. That wouldn't be a problem. Again, there's some risk in using the word Elohim in that. Sort of placeholder, but, um, that would be a semantic discussion. What they're doing is far, far deeper and far more problematic than that. [00:26:30] Systematic Theology Concerns Tony Arsenal: And so the, the other thing they do, um, that I think is really dangerous, and I don't have all of the, I haven't finished this article yet, so I don't have all of the timestamps in front of me to, to, to get there, is in attempting to justify this Moffitt, uh, in, in one of the other episodes, he turns to the incarnation as a sort of model. And so he'll say that, you know, the son of God is divine, but he's also human. And the fact that he's human, uh, doesn't therefore mean he's not also uniquely the uncreated creator. I would assume everyone hearing this who listens to this show, uh, which has done many, many episodes on Christology, it's one of our pet projects, is just throwing their listening device across the room because what Moffitt seems to miss entirely is that Christ is not, the sun is not in the category of human. Uh, sort of in a simple sense, Christ is in the category of human because he assumes to himself a second created nature. So what, what the, the analogy he's trying to draw is if the sun can be human without ceasing to be the unique one, uncreated God, then so also can, the whole trinity, I guess, can also be Elohim without ceasing to be the one uncreated God. He even goes so far as to say that there is Uncreated Elohim, and then there is created Elohim, and they're all in the category of Elohim, but because there's this commonality, we should still consider that class. And he draws that distinction or he draws the implication that. Um, there's somehow uncreated humanity in Christ, which is a whole different ball of worms that we won't get into. But in, in drawing this analogy, he sort of shows that he really doesn't understand the hypostatic union. He doesn't understand the incarnation, or if he does, he's really making a poor comparison because in the hypostatic union it's not as though the son, uh, as divinity, the son, as the one uncreated. God simply adds to himself in a raw sense and merges. Uh, he doesn't become part of the category of human without taking on a second nature. And then now we are even getting into some inconsistencies. Is human an ontological category or is that a category of function? Are there other categories of function, uh, other creatures in existence that the category of function human might fit? So I think you can see that this just is not a self consistent. Um, a self-consistent system and it leads to all these weird implications. Um, you know, and then they'll even go on to talk about how the Son is the angel of the Lord. I'm not gonna get into a lot of it here, and I agree with that thesis that the, when we see the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament, in the vast majority of cases, we're probably seeing a pre-incarnate appearance of, um, of the second person of the Trinity. They go so far as to say that this is actually a sort of. Incarnation or a sort of hypostatic union of the Elohim nature. So they, they, they draw this distinction, or they draw this parallel between created Elohim and Uncreated Elohim, and they, they argue again, I think implicitly, but in some instances it's almost, it's almost explicit that the son in, in being the angel of the Lord, takes on the uncreated or takes on the created Elohim nature. It's, it's really, um, it's really problematic. So now we have the son who is, uh, sort of hypostatic united to the unc, to the created Elohim nature, and then also is hypostatic united to the human nature. Um, it, it really just gets messy and it confuses categories in a way that is not helpful. And if I'm just being frank, a lot of the younger reformed guys. And when I say younger, I'm talking, maybe I'm projecting back to when I was a younger reform guy, um, I'm talking about people in their mid twenties to maybe early thirties, right? The, the people who were maybe the second or third generation of the young restless reform guys, they didn't necessarily learn, uh, ref young restless reform theology directly from RC Sproul. You know, they weren't the first generation. Um, and, and maybe their pastors weren't the first generation, but, but maybe their pastors were the second generation and now they're learning it from their pastors. So you might think of 'em as like the third generation, to be frank, they don't usually have a great grasp on some of these systematic theology categories as part of why. Jesse and I do this podcast, and part of why we cover the same topic over and over again, part of why we're gonna go through this parable series. But when we're done, we're probably gonna go back and start over with systematic theology. We're gonna go back, we're gonna go through another confession. That's why we spent, we spent like six years going through systematic theology. And almost immediately went back to the Scott's confession and did most of it all over again because these truths need to be taught again and again and again. This is part of what Jude is talking about when he says, we have to contend for the faith. It's not just fighting with people online. It's not just polemics or apologetics. It is reteaching and handing down the faith that was once delivered to the saints. Again, and this is perhaps, and this is the last point I'll make. This is perhaps the most. Telling a reason we should be weary and suspicious of this theology. Paul, in, uh, one of the letters to Timothy, second Timothy, maybe he says, follow the pattern of the sound words that you heard from me. He's not talking about the scriptures. He doesn't say follow the sound words that I'm writing to you. He's referring to a body of doctrine sometimes. The Bible calls it the faith, right? Jude says to contend for the faith. There's this body of doctrine that is the teaching of the apostles, and it is encapsulated in this sort of set pattern of words. Erin A is called it the rule of faith or the regular fide, right? This is where we get things like the Nicean Creed or the Hanian Creed. Why we have creeds and confessions is because we don't need to reinvent the wheel and rather than rely on the safe time-tested words and concepts that have been proven and validated, and attacked and defended and, and um, have been victorious for hundreds and thousands of years, rather than rely on those. Moffitt and Van Doran think it is smarter and safer to depart from the pattern of sound words rather than to keep the pattern of sound words because they think that they are able to look at the Bible the way basically no one ever has in the 2000 years of the church and find something they haven't. I don't wanna be too bombastic. Um, I don't, I don't know either of them. Well, um, from what I can tell, what I've heard of their professions of faith, uh, they're, they're Christian believers. They love the Lord and are very confused. But these teachings are pagan. This is, we're talking about returning to a world of, of populated by spiritual beings. And God is kind of just on the highest part of the totem pole, and maybe there's a firm line between his place on the totem pole and the, the next level down. Maybe there is, um, gets a little bit less firm of a line when we're talking about Jesus, right? So there's some potential Arian implications there that the son, uh, is not the highest deity he is. He's like the father in some ways, but he, you know, in his sort of original form is like creatures in other ways. Um, we're just returning to something that the early church fought hard to get rid of when they came out of their pagan culture. When we started to see Greeks convert to Christianity, they had to figure out how do we come out of our polytheistic culture, and this is where we get the best defenses of monotheism. Jewish Christians didn't have to argue for monotheism because all the Jewish Christians already were monotheists in a biblical sense. The Greek Christians had to fight this stuff. Justin Martyr had to fight this stuff. Athanasius and the Cappadocian fathers had to fight this stuff constantly pushing back against the background Greek culture. And Moffitt and Van Dorn wanna point to that and say, see, really, they're just Greeks in disguise and in the reality is Athanasius and the cap oceans, were fighting against the theology that is making a resurgence in this divine council theory. [00:34:55] Conclusion and Call to Action Tony Arsenal: So I think that's enough for now. Please. Again, I'm writing a long series on this. I don't know how long it's gonna take. I think it's gonna be probably 10 or 13, 10 to 13 articles. It's, it's gonna be a pretty extensive project. But go read them. Go look at them, listen to their episodes, read their articles, and then you compare that to the word of God, has what I said made more sense or does what they make more sense. So I'll leave you with that. The dog is losing her mind. And uh, with that honor, everyone love the brotherhood.

In this introductory episode to their new series on the Parables of Jesus, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore the profound theological significance of Christ's parables. Far from being mere teaching tools to simplify complex ideas, parables serve a dual purpose in God's redemptive plan: revealing spiritual truth to those with "ears to hear" while concealing these same truths from those without spiritual illumination. This episode lays the groundwork for understanding how parables function as divine teaching devices that embody core Reformed doctrines like election and illumination. As the hosts prepare to journey through all the parables in the Gospels, they invite listeners to consider the blessing of being granted spiritual understanding and the privilege of receiving the "secrets of the kingdom" through Christ's distinctive teaching method. Key Takeaways Parables are more than illustrations—they are comparisons that reveal kingdom truths to those with spiritual ears to hear while concealing truth from those without spiritual illumination. Jesus intentionally taught in parables not to simplify his teaching but partly to fulfill Isaiah's prophecy about those who hear but do not understand, confirming the spiritual condition of his hearers. The ability to understand parables is itself evidence of God's sovereign grace and election, as Jesus states in Matthew 13:16: "Blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear." Parables vary in form and function—some are clearly allegorical while others make a single point, requiring each to be approached on its own terms. Proper interpretation requires context—understanding both the original audience and the question or situation that prompted Jesus to use a particular parable. Parables function like Nathan's confrontation of David—they draw hearers in through narrative before revealing uncomfortable truths about themselves. Studying parables requires spiritual humility—recognizing that our understanding comes not from intellectual capacity but from the Spirit's illumination. Understanding Parables as Revelation, Not Just Illustration The hosts emphasize that parables are fundamentally different from mere illustrations or fables. While modern readers often assume Jesus used parables to simplify complex spiritual truths, the opposite is frequently true. As Tony explains, "A parable fundamentally is a comparison between two things... The word parable comes from the Greek of casting alongside." This distinction is crucial because it changes how we approach interpretation. Rather than breaking down each element as an allegorical component, we should first understand what reality Jesus is comparing the parable to. The parables function as a form of divine revelation—showing us kingdom realities through narrative comparison, but only those with spiritual insight can truly grasp their meaning. This is why Jesus quotes Isaiah and explains that he speaks in parables partly because "seeing they do not see and hearing they do not hear nor do they understand" (Matthew 13:13). The Doctrine of Election Embedded in Parabolic Teaching Perhaps the most profound insight from this episode is how the very form of Jesus' teaching—not just its content—embodies the doctrine of election. Jesse notes that "every parable then implicitly teaches a doctrine of election," because they reveal spiritual truth to some while concealing it from others. This isn't arbitrary but reflects spiritual realities. The hosts connect this to Jesus' words in Matthew 13:16: "Blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear." This blessing comes not from intellectual capacity or moral superiority but from God's sovereign grace. Tony describes this as "the blessing in our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation." The parables thus become a "microcosm" of Reformed doctrines like election, regeneration, and illumination. When believers understand Jesus' parables, they're experiencing the practical outworking of these doctrines in real time. Memorable Quotes "The parables are not just to illustrate a point, they're to reveal a spiritual point or spiritual points to those who have ears to hear, to those who've been illuminated by the spirit." - Tony Arsenal "Jesus is giving this message essentially to all who will listen to him... And so this is like, I love the way that he uses that quote in a slightly different way, but still to express the same root cause, which is some of you here because of your depravity will not be able to hear what I'm saying. But for those to whom it has been granted to come in who are ushered into the kingdom, this kingdom language will make sense." - Jesse Schwamb "But blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear. There's a blessing in our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation." - Tony Arsenal About the Hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb are the regular hosts of The Reformed Brotherhood podcast, where they explore Reformed theology and its application to Christian living. With a conversational style that balances depth and accessibility, they seek to make complex theological concepts understandable without sacrificing nuance or biblical fidelity. Transcript [00:00:45] Introduction and New Series Announcement [00:00:45] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 460 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:54] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:00:59] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. New series Time, new series. Time for the next seven years that, that's probably correct. It's gonna be a long one. New beginnings are so great, aren't they? And it is. [00:01:10] Jesse Schwamb: We've been hopefully this, well, it's definitely gonna live up to all the hype that we've been presenting about this. It's gonna be good. Everybody's gonna love it. And like I said, it's a topic we haven't done before. It's certainly not in this format. [00:01:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know what, just, um, as a side note, if you are a listener, which you must be, if you're hearing this, uh, this is a great time to introduce someone to the podcast. [00:01:33] Tony Arsenal: True. Uh, one, because this series is gonna be lit as the kids say, and, uh, it's a new series, so you don't have to have any background. You don't have to have any previous knowledge of the show or of who these two weird guys are to jump in and we're gonna. [00:01:53] Tony Arsenal: Talk about the Bible, which is amazing and awesome. And who doesn't love to talk about the Bible. [00:01:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's correct. That's what makes these so good. That's how I know, and I could say confidently that this is gonna be all the hype and more. All right, so before we get to affirmations and denials, all the good ProGo, that's part and parcel of our normal episode content. [00:02:12] Jesse Schwamb: Do you want to tell everybody what we're gonna be talking about? [00:02:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I'm excited. [00:02:17] Introducing the Parables Series [00:02:17] Tony Arsenal: So we are gonna work our way through, and this is why I say it's gonna take seven years. We are gonna work our way through all of the parables. Parables, [00:02:25] Jesse Schwamb: the [00:02:25] Tony Arsenal: gospels and just so, um, the Gospel of John doesn't feel left out. [00:02:30] Tony Arsenal: We're gonna talk through some of the I am statements and some of that stuff when we get to John. 'cause John doesn't have a lot of parables. Uh, so we're gonna spend time in the synoptic gospels. We're gonna just walk through the parables one by one. We're taking an episode, sometimes maybe two, sometimes 10, depending on how long the parable is and how deep we get into it. [00:02:47] Tony Arsenal: We're just gonna work our way through. We're gonna take our time. We're gonna enjoy it. So again, this is a great time to start. It's kinda the ground floor on this and you thing. This could really be its own podcast all by itself, right? Uh, so invite a friend, invite some whole bunch of friends. Start a Sunday school class listening to this. [00:03:04] Tony Arsenal: No, don't do that. But people have done that before. But, uh, grab your bibles, get a decent commentary to help prep for the next episode, and, uh, let's, let's do it. I'm super excited. [00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: When I say para, you say Abel Para, is that how it works? Para? Yeah. I don't know. You can't really divide it. Pairable. If you jam it together, yes. [00:03:24] Jesse Schwamb: You get some of that. You can say, when I say pair, you say Abel p [00:03:27] Tony Arsenal: Abel. [00:03:31] Jesse Schwamb: And you can expect a lot more of that in this series. But before we get into all this good juicy stuff about parables, and by the way, this is like an introductory episode, that doesn't mean that you can just skip it, doesn't mean it's not gonna be good. We gotta set some things up. We wanna talk about parables general generally, but before we have that good general conversation, let's get into our own tradition, which is either affirming with something or denying against something. [00:03:54] Affirmations and Denials [00:03:54] Jesse Schwamb: And so, Tony, what do you got for all of us? [00:03:58] Tony Arsenal: Mine is kind of a, an ecclesial, ecclesiastical denial. Mm-hmm. Um, this is sort of niche, but I feel like our audience may have heard about it. And there's this dust up that I, I noticed online, uh, really just this last week. Um, it's kind of a specific thing. There is a church, uh, I'm not sure where the church is. [00:04:18] Tony Arsenal: It's a PCA church, I believe it's called Mosaic. The pastor of the church, the teaching elder, one of the teaching elders just announced that he was, uh, leaving his ministry to, uh, join the Roman Catholic Church, which, yes, there's its own denial built into that. We are good old Protestant reformed folks, and I personally would, would stick with the original Westminster on the, the Pope being antichrist. [00:04:45] Tony Arsenal: But, um, that's not the denial. The denial is that in this particular church. For some unknown reason. Uh, the pastor who has now since a announced that he was leaving to, uh, to convert to Roman Catholicism, continued to preach the sermon and then administered the Lord's supper, even though he in the eyes, I think of most. [00:05:08] Tony Arsenal: Reformed folk and certainly historically in the eyes of the reformed position was basically apostate, uh, right in front of the congregation's eyes. Now, I don't know that I would necessarily put it that strongly. I think there are plenty of genuine born again Christians who find themselves in, in the Roman Catholic, uh, church. [00:05:27] Tony Arsenal: Uh, but to allow someone who is one resigning the ministry right in front of your eyes. Um, and then resigning to basically leave for another tradition that, that the PCA would not recognize, would not share ecclesiastical, uh, credentials with or accept their ordination or any of those things. Um, to then just allow him to admit, you know, to administer the Lord's Supper, I think is just a drastic miscarriage of, uh, ecclesiastical justice. [00:05:54] Tony Arsenal: I dunno if that's the right word. So I'm just denying this like. It shows that on a couple things like this, this. Church this session, who obviously knew this was coming. Um, this session does either, does not take seriously the differences between Roman Catholic theology and Protestant theology, particularly reformed theology, or they don't take seriously the, the gravity of the Lord's supper and who should and shouldn't be administering it. [00:06:22] Tony Arsenal: They can't take both of those things seriously and have a fully or biblical position on it. So there's a good opportunity for us to think through our ecclesiology, to think through our sacrament and how this applies. It just really doesn't sit well and it's not sitting well with a lot of people online, obviously. [00:06:37] Tony Arsenal: Um, and I'm sure there'll be all sorts of, like letters of concern sent to presbytery and, and all that stuff, and, and it'll all shake out in the wash eventually, but just, it just wasn't good. Just doesn't sit right. [00:06:48] Jesse Schwamb: You know, it strikes me of all the denominations. I'm not saying this pejoratively. I just think it is kind of interesting and funny to me that the Presbyterians love a letter writing campaign. [00:06:56] Jesse Schwamb: Like that's kind of the jam, the love, a good letter writing campaign. [00:07:00] Tony Arsenal: It's true, although it's, it's actually functional in Presbyterianism because That's right. That's how you voice your concern. It's not a, not a, a rage letter into the void. It actually goes somewhere and gets recorded and has to be addressed at presbytery if you have standing. [00:07:17] Tony Arsenal: So there's, there's a good reason to do that, and I'm sure that that will be done. I'm sure there are many. Probably ministers in the PCA who are aware of this, who are either actually considering filing charges or um, or writing such letters of complaints. And there's all sorts of mechanisms in the PCA to, to adjudicate and resolve and to investigate these kinds of things. [00:07:37] Jesse Schwamb: And I'd like to, if you're, if you're a true Presbyterian and, and in this instance, I'm not making light of this instance, but this instance are others, you. Feel compelled by a strong conviction to write such a letter that really you should do it with a quill, an ink. Like that's the ultimate way. I think handwritten with like a nice fountain pen. [00:07:54] Jesse Schwamb: There's not, yeah. I mean, you know what I'm saying? Like that's, that is a weighty letter right there. Like it's cut to Paul being like, I write this postscript in my own hand with these big letters. Yeah, it's like, you know, some original Presbyterian letter writing right there. [00:08:07] Tony Arsenal: And then you gotta seal it with wax with your signe ring. [00:08:10] Tony Arsenal: So, and send it by a carrier, by a messenger series of me messengers. [00:08:14] Jesse Schwamb: Think if you receive any letter in the mail, handwritten to you. Like for real, somebody painstakingly going through in script like spencerian script, you know, if you're using English characters writing up and then sealing that bad boy with wax, you're gonna be like, this is important. [00:08:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, this, even if it's just like, Hey, what's up? Yeah, you're gonna be like, look at this incredible, weighty document I've received. [00:08:36] Tony Arsenal: It's true. It's very true. I love it. Well, that's all I have to say about that to channel a little Forrest Gump there. Uh, Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight? [00:08:44] Jesse Schwamb: I'm also going to deny against, so this denial is like classic. [00:08:49] Jesse Schwamb: It's routine, but I got a different spin on it this time, so I'm denying against. The full corruption of sin, how it appears everywhere, how even unbelievers speak of it, almost unwittingly, but very commonly with great acceptance. And the particularity of this denial comes in the form of allergies, which you and I are talking about a lot of times. [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: But I was just thinking about this week because I had to do some allergy testing, which is a, a super fun experience. But it just got me think again, like very plainly about what allergies are. And how an allergy occurs when your immune system, like the part of your body responsible for protecting your body that God has made when your immune system mistakes like a non-harmful substance like pollen or a food or some kind of animal dander for a threat, and then reacts by producing these antibodies like primarily the immunoglobulin E. [00:09:36] Jesse Schwamb: So here's what strikes me as so funny about this in a, in a way that we must laugh. Because of our, our parents, our first parents who made a horrible decision and we like them, would make the same decision every day and twice in the Lord's day. And that is that this seems like, of course, such a clear sign of the corruption of sin impounded in our created order because it seems a really distasteful and suboptimal for human beings to have this kind of response to pollen. [00:10:03] Jesse Schwamb: When they were intended to work and care in a garden. So obviously I think we can say, Hey, like the fact that allergies exist and that it's your body making a mistake. [00:10:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:10:13] Jesse Schwamb: It's like the ultimate, like cellular level of the ubiquity of sin. And so as I was speaking with my doctor and going through the, the testing, it's just so funny how like we all talk about this. [00:10:25] Jesse Schwamb: It's like, yeah, it's, it's a really over-indexed reaction. It doesn't make any sense. It's not the way the world is supposed to be, but nobody's saying how is the world supposed to be? Do you know what I mean? Like, but we just take it for granted that that kind of inflammation that comes from like your dog or like these particles in the air of plants, just trying to do a plant stew and reproduce and pollinate that, that could cause like really dramatic and debilitating. [00:10:49] Jesse Schwamb: Responses is just exceptional to me, and I think it's exceptional and exceptional to all of us because at some deep level we recognize that, as Paul says, like the earth, the entire world is groaning. It's groaning for that eschatological release and redemption that can only come from Christ. And our runny noses in our hay fever all prove that to some degree. [00:11:09] Jesse Schwamb: So denying against allergies, but denying against as well that ubiquity of corruption and sin in our world. [00:11:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I just have this image in my head of Adam and Eve, you know, they're expelled outta the garden and they, they're working the ground. And then Adam sneezes. Yes. And Eve is like, did your head just explode? [00:11:28] Tony Arsenal: And he's like, I don't know. That would've been a, probably a pretty terrifying experience actually. [00:11:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's that's true. So imagine like you and I have talked about this before, because you have young children, adorable. Young children, and we've talked about like the first of everything, like when you're a child, you get sick for the first time, or you get the flu or you vomit for the first time. [00:11:45] Jesse Schwamb: Like you have no idea what's going on in your body, but imagine that. But being an adult. [00:11:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, where you can process what's going on, but don't have a framework for it. [00:11:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, exactly. So like [00:11:54] Tony Arsenal: that's like, that's like my worst nightmare I think. [00:11:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It's like, to your point, 'cause there, there are a lot of experiences you have as an adults, even health wise that are still super strange and weird. [00:12:01] Jesse Schwamb: But [00:12:02] Tony Arsenal: yeah, [00:12:02] Jesse Schwamb: you have some rubric for them, but that's kind of exactly what I was thinking. What if this toiling over your labor is partly because it's horrible now because you have itchy, watery eyes or you get hives. Yeah. And before you were like, I could just lay in the grass and be totally fine. And now I can't even walk by ragweed without getting a headache or having some kind of weird fatigue. [00:12:23] Jesse Schwamb: Like I have to believe that that was, that part of this transition was all of these things. Like, now your body's gonna overreact to stuff where I, I, God put us in a place where that wouldn't be the case at all. [00:12:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Sometimes I think about like the first. Time that Adam was like sore or like hurt himself. [00:12:42] Tony Arsenal: True. Like the, just the, just the terror and fear that must have come with it. And sin is serious stuff. Like it's serious effects and sad, sad, sad stuff. But yeah, allergies are the worst. I, uh, I suffered really badly with, uh, seasonal allergies. When I was a a kid I had to do allergy shots and everything and it's makes no sense. [00:13:03] Tony Arsenal: There's no rhyme or reason to it, and your allergies change. So like you could be going your whole life, being able to eat strawberries and then all of a sudden you can't. Right? And it's, and you don't know until it happens. So [00:13:14] Jesse Schwamb: what's up with that? [00:13:15] Tony Arsenal: No good. [00:13:16] Jesse Schwamb: What's up with that? So again, imagine that little experience is a microcosmic example of what happens to Adam and Eve. [00:13:24] Jesse Schwamb: You know, like all these things change. Like you're, you're right. Suddenly your body isn't the same. It's not just because you're growing older, but because guess what? Sins everywhere. And guess what, where sin is, even in the midst of who you are as physically constructed and the environment in which you live, all, all totally change. [00:13:40] Jesse Schwamb: So that, that's enough of my rants on allergies. I know the, I know the loved ones out there hear me. It's also remarkable to me that almost everybody has an allergy of some kind. It's very, it's very rare if you don't have any allergies whatsoever. And probably those times when you think you're sick and you don't have allergies could be that you actually have them. [00:13:57] Jesse Schwamb: So it's just wild. Wild. [00:14:02] Tony Arsenal: Agreed. Agreed. [00:14:03] Theological Discussion on Parables [00:14:03] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, without further ado, I'm not, I, maybe we should have further ado, but let's get into it. Let's talk about some parable stuff. [00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, let's do it again. When I say pair, you say able pair. [00:14:17] Tony Arsenal: Able. [00:14:20] Jesse Schwamb: When I say [00:14:21] Tony Arsenal: para you say bowl. [00:14:24] Jesse Schwamb: That's what I was trying to go with before. [00:14:26] Jesse Schwamb: It's a little bit more, yeah, but you gotta like cross over like we both gotta say like that middle syllable kind of. Otherwise it's, it sounds like I'm just saying bowl. And [00:14:34] Tony Arsenal: yeah, there's no good way to chant that. Yeah, we're work. This is why Jesse and I are not cheerleaders. [00:14:39] Jesse Schwamb: We're, we're work shopping everybody. [00:14:40] Jesse Schwamb: But I agree with you. Enough of us talking about affirmations, the denials in this case, the double double denial. Let's talk about parables. So the beauty of this whole series is there's gonna be so much great stuff to talk about, and I think this is a decent topic for us to cover because. Really, if you think about it, the parables of Jesus have captivated people for the entirety of the scriptures. [00:15:06] Jesse Schwamb: As long, as long as they were recorded and have been read and processed and studied together. And, uh, you know, there's stuff I'm sure that we will just gloss over. We don't need to get into in terms of like, is it pure allegory? Is it always allegory? Is it, there's lots of interpretation here. I think this is gonna be our way of processing together and moving through some of these and speaking them out and trying to learn principally. [00:15:28] Jesse Schwamb: Predominantly what they're teaching us. But I say all that because characters like the prodigal son, like Good Samaritan, Pharisees, and tax collector, those actually have become well known even outside the church. [00:15:40] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And [00:15:40] Jesse Schwamb: then sometimes inside the church there's over familiarity with all of these, and that leads to its own kind of misunderstanding. [00:15:46] Jesse Schwamb: So, and I think as well. I'm hoping that myself, you and our listeners will be able to hear them in a new way, and maybe if we can try to do this without again, being parabolic, is that we can kind of recreate some of the trauma. In these stories. 'cause Jesus is, is pressing upon very certain things and there's certainly a lot of trauma that his original audiences would've taken away from what he was saying here. [00:16:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Even just starting with what is a parable and why is Jesus telling them? So I presume that's actually the best place for us to begin is what's the deal with the parables and why is this? Is this Jesus preferred way of teaching about the kingdom of God. [00:16:30] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think, you know, it bears saying too that like not all the parables are alike. [00:16:35] Tony Arsenal: Like true. We can't, this is why I'm excited about this series. You know, it's always good to talk through the bible and, and or to talk through systematic theology, but what really excites me is when we do a series like this, kind of like the Scott's Confession series, like it gives us a reason. To think through a lot of different disciplines and flex like exercise and stretch and flex a lot of different kinds of intellectual muscles. [00:17:00] Tony Arsenal: So there's gonna be some exegetical work we have to do. There's gonna be some hermeneutical work we're gonna have to do, probably have to do some historical work about how the parables have been interpreted in different ways. Yes, and and I think, so, I think it's important to say like, not every parable is exactly the same. [00:17:14] Tony Arsenal: And this is where I think like when you read, sometimes you read books about the, the parables of Christ. Like you, you'll hear one guy say. Well, a parable is not an allegory. Then you'll hear another guy say like, well, parables might have allegorical elements to it. Right. Now if one guy say like, well, a parable has one main point, and you'll have another guy say like, well, no, actually, like parables can have multiple points and multiple shades of meaning. [00:17:37] Tony Arsenal: And I think the answer to why you have this variance in the commentaries is 'cause sometimes the parables are alleg. [00:17:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right. And [00:17:44] Tony Arsenal: sometimes they're not allegorical. Sometimes they have one main point. Sometimes there's multiple points. So I think it's important for us to just acknowledge like we're gonna have to come to each parable, um, on its own and on its own terms. [00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: But there are some general principles that I think we can talk about what parables are. So parables in general are. Figurative stories or figurative accounts that are used to illustrate, I think primarily used to illustrate a single main point. And there may be some subpoints, but they, they're generally intended to, uh, to illustrate something by way of a, of a narrative, a fictional narrative that, uh, helps the reader. [00:18:27] Tony Arsenal: Uh, or the hearer is just, it's also important that these were primarily heard, these are heard parables, so there are even times where the phrasing of the language is important in the parable. Um, they're helping the, the hearer to understand spiritual truth. And this is where I think it's it's key, is that this is not just. [00:18:48] Tony Arsenal: When we're talking about the parables of Christ, right? There's people tell parables, there's all sorts of different teachers that have used parables. Um, I, I do parables on the show from time to time where I'll tell like a little made up story about a, you know, a situation. I'll say like, pretend, you know, let's imagine you have this guy and he's doing this thing that's a form of a parable when I'm using. [00:19:08] Tony Arsenal: I'm not, it's not like a makeup made up story. It's not asaps fables. We're not talking about like talking foxes and hens and stuff, but it's illustrating a point. But the parables of Christ are not just to illustrate a point, they're to reveal a spiritual point or spiritual points to those who have ears to hear, to those who've been illuminated by the spirit. [00:19:29] Tony Arsenal: And I just wanna read this. Uh, this is just God's providence, um, in action. I, um, I've fallen behind on my reading in The Daily Dad, which is a Ryan Holiday book. This was the reading that came up today, even though it's not the correct reading for the day. Uh, it's, it's for September 2nd. We're recording this on September, uh, sixth. [00:19:48] Tony Arsenal: Uh, and the title is, this is How You Teach Them. And the first line says, if the Bible has any indication, Jesus rarely seemed to come out and say what he meant. He preferred instead to employ parables and stories and little anecdotes that make you think. He tells stories of the servants and the talents. [00:20:03] Tony Arsenal: He tells stories of the prodigal son and the Good Samaritan. Turns out it's pretty effective to get a point across and make it stick. What what we're gonna learn. Actually that Jesus tells these stories in parables, in part to teach those who have spiritual ears to hear, but in part to mask the truth That's right. [00:20:24] Tony Arsenal: From those who don't have spiritual ears to hear, oh, online [00:20:26] Jesse Schwamb: holiday. [00:20:27] Tony Arsenal: So it's not as simple as like Jesus, using illustration to help make something complicated, clearer, right? Yes. But also, no. So I'm super excited to kind of get into this stuff and talk through it and to, to really dig into the parables themselves. [00:20:42] Tony Arsenal: It's just gonna be a really good exercise at sort of sitting at the feet of our master in his really, his preferred mode of teaching. Um, you know, other than the sermon on the Mount. There's not a lot of like long form, straightforward, didactic teaching like that most of Christ's teaching as recorded in the gospels, comes in the form of these parables in one way or another. [00:21:03] Tony Arsenal: Right. And that's pretty exciting to me. [00:21:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right. And there's so many more parables I think, than we often understand there to be, or at least then that we see in like the headings are Bible, which of course have been put there by our own construction. So anytime you get that. Nice short, metaphorical narrative is really Jesus speaking in a kind of parable form, and I think you're right on. [00:21:25] Jesse Schwamb: For me, it's always highlighting some kind of aspect of the kingdom of God. And I'd say there is generally a hierarchy. There doesn't have to be like a single point, like you said. There could be other points around that. But if you get into this place where like everything has some kind of allegory representation, then the parable seems to die of the death of like a million paper cuts, right? [00:21:40] Jesse Schwamb: Because you're trying to figure out all the things and if you have to represent something, everything he says with some kind of. Heavy spiritual principle gets kind of weird very quickly. But in each of these, as you said, what's common in my understanding is it's presenting like a series of events involving like a small number of characters. [00:21:57] Jesse Schwamb: It is bite-sized and sometimes those are people or plants or even like inanimate objects. So like the, yeah, like you said, the breadth and scope of how Jesus uses the metaphor is brilliant teaching, and it's even more brilliant when you get to that level, like you're saying, where it's meant both to illuminate. [00:22:13] Jesse Schwamb: To obfuscate. That is like, to me, the parable is a manifestation of election because it's clear that Jesus is using this. Those who have the ears to hear are the ones whom the Holy Spirit has unstopped, has opened the eyes, has illuminated the hearts and the mind to such a degree that can receive these, and that now these words are resonant. [00:22:32] Jesse Schwamb: So like what a blessing that we can understand them, that God has essentially. Use this parabolic teaching in such a way to bring forward his concept of election in the minds and the hearts of those who are his children. And it's kind of a way, this is kind of like the secret Christian handshake. It's the speakeasy of salvation. [00:22:52] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's coming into the fold because God has invited you in and given you. The knowledge and ability of which to really understand these things. And so most of these little characters seemed realistic and resonant in Jesus' world, and that's why sometimes we do need a little bit of studying and understanding the proper context for all those things. [00:23:12] Jesse Schwamb: I would say as well, like at least one element in those parables is a push. It's in, it's kind of taking it and hyping it up. It's pushing the boundaries of what's plausible, and so you'll find that all of this is made again to illuminate some principle of the kingdom of God. And we should probably go to the thing that you intimated, because when you read that quote from, from Ryan Holiday, I was like, yes, my man. [00:23:34] Jesse Schwamb: Like he's on the right track. Right? There's something about what he's saying that is partially correct, but like you said, a lot of times people mistake the fact that, well, Jesus. Is using this language and these metaphors, these similes, he speaks in parables because they were the best way to get like these uneducated people to understand him. [00:23:57] Jesse Schwamb: Right? But it's actually the exact opposite. And we know this because of perhaps the most famous dialogue and expression and explanation of parables, which comes to us in Matthew 13, 10 through 17, where Jesus explains to his disciples exactly why he uses this mode of teaching. And what he says is. This is why I speak to them of parables because seeing they do not see and hearing, they do not hear they nor do they understand. [00:24:24] Jesse Schwamb: So, so that's perplexing. We should probably camp there for just a second and talk about that. Right, and, and like really unpack like, what is Jesus after here? Then if, like, before we get into like, what do all these things mean, it's almost like saying. We need to understand why they're even set before us and why these in some ways are like a kind of a small stumbling block to others, but then this great stone of appreciation and one to stand on for for others. [00:24:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think you know, before we, before we cover that, which I think is a good next spot. A parable is not just an illustration. Like I think that's where a lot of people go a little bit sideways, is they think that this is effectively, like it's a fable. It's like a made up story primarily to like illustrate a point right. [00:25:09] Tony Arsenal: Or an allegory where you know, you're taking individual components and they represent something else. A parable fundamentally is a, is a, a comparison between two things, right? The word parable comes from the Greek of casting alongside, and so the idea is like you're, you're taking. The reality that you're trying to articulate and you're setting up this parable next to it and you're comparing them to it. [00:25:33] Tony Arsenal: And so I like to use the word simile, like that's why Christ says like the kingdom of God is like this. Yes. It's not like I'm gonna explain the kingdom of God to you by using this made up story. Right on. It's I'm gonna compare the kingdom of God to this thing or this story that I'm having, and so we should be. [00:25:49] Tony Arsenal: Rather than trying to like find the principles of the parable, we should be looking at it and going, how does this parable reflect? Or how is this a, um, how is this an explanation? Not in the, like, I, I'm struggling to even explain this here. It's not that the cer, the parable is just illustrating a principle. [00:26:10] Tony Arsenal: It's that the kingdom of God is one thing and the parable reveals that same one thing by way of comparison. Yes. So like. Uh, we'll get into the specifics, obviously, but when the, when the, um, lawyer says, who is my neighbor? Well, it's not just like, well, let's look at the Good Samaritan. And the Good Samaritan represents this, and the Levite represents this, and the priest represents this. [00:26:32] Tony Arsenal: It's a good neighbor, is this thing. It's this story. Compared to whatever you have in your mind of what a good neighbor is. And we're gonna bounce those things up against each other, and that's gonna somehow show us what the, what the reality is. And that's why I think to get back to where we were, that's why I think sometimes the parables actually obscure the truth. [00:26:53] Tony Arsenal: Because if we're not comparing the parable to the reality of something, then we're gonna get the parable wrong. So if we think that, um, the Good Samaritan. Is a parable about social justice and we're, we're looking at it to try to understand how do we treat, you know, the, the poor people in Africa who don't have food or the war torn refugees, you know, coming out of Ukraine. [00:27:19] Tony Arsenal: If we're looking at it primarily as like, I need to learn to be a good neighbor to those who are destitute. Uh, we're not comparing it against what Jesus was comparing it against, right? So, so we have to understand, we have to start in a lot of cases with the question that the parable is a response to, which oftentimes the parable is a response to a question or it's a, it's a principle that's being, um, compare it against if we get that first step wrong, uh, or if we start with our own presuppositions, which is why. [00:27:50] Tony Arsenal: Partially why I think Christ is saying like, the only those who have ears to hear. Like if you don't have a spiritual presupposition, I, I mean that, that might not be the right word, but like if you're not starting from the place of spiritual illumination, not in the weird gnostic sense, but in the, the. [00:28:07] Tony Arsenal: Genuinely Christian illumination of the Holy Spirit and inward testimony of the Holy Spirit. If you're not starting from that perspective, you almost can't get the parables right. So that's why we see like the opponents of Christ in the Bible, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, constantly. They're constantly confused and they're getting it wrong. [00:28:26] Tony Arsenal: And, and even sometimes the disciples, they have to go and ask sometimes too, what is this parable? Wow, that's right. What is, what does this mean? So it's never as simple as, as what's directly on the surface, but it's also not usually as complicated as we would make it be if we were trying to over-interpret the parable, which I think is another risk. [00:28:44] Jesse Schwamb: That's the genius, isn't it? Is that I I like what you're saying. It's that spiritual predisposition that allows us to receive the word and, and when we receive that word, it is a simple word. It's not as if like, we have to elevate ourselves in place of this high learning or education or philosophizing, and that's the beauty of it. [00:29:03] Jesse Schwamb: So it is, again, God's setting apart for himself A, a people a teaching. So. But I think this is, it is a little bit perplexing at first, like that statement from Jesus because it's a bit like somebody coming to you, like your place of work or anywhere else in your family life and asking you explicitly for instruction and, and then you saying something like, listen, I, I'm gonna show you, but you're not gonna be able to see it. [00:29:22] Jesse Schwamb: And you're gonna, I'm gonna tell you, but you're not gonna be able to hear it, and I'm gonna explain it to you, but you're not gonna be able to understand. And you're like, okay. So yeah, what's the point of you talking to me then? So it's clear, like you said that Jesus. Is teaching that the secrets, and that's really, really what these are. [00:29:37] The Secrets of the Kingdom of God [00:29:37] Jesse Schwamb: It's brilliant and beautiful that Jesus would, that the, the son of God and God himself would tell us the secrets of his kingdom. But that again, first of all by saying it's a secret, means it's, it's for somebody to guard and to hold knowledge closely and that it is protected. So he says, teaching like the secrets of the kingdom of God are unknowable through mere human reasoning and intuition. [00:29:56] Jesse Schwamb: Interestingly here though, Jesus is also saying that. He's, it's not like he's saying no one can ever understand the parables, right, or that he intends to hide their truth from all people. [00:30:07] Understanding Parables and God's Sovereign Grace [00:30:07] Jesse Schwamb: Instead, he just explains that in order to highlight God's sovereign grace, God in his mercy has enlightened some to whom it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven. [00:30:17] Jesse Schwamb: That's verse 11. So. All of us as his children who have been illuminated can understand the truth of God's kingdom. That is wild and and that is amazing. So that this knowledge goes out and just like we talk about the scripture going out and never returning void, here's a prime example of that very thing that there is a condemnation and not being able to understand. [00:30:37] Jesse Schwamb: That condemnation comes not because you're not intelligent enough, but because as you said, you do not have that predisposition. You do not have that changed heart into the ability to understand these things. [00:30:47] Doctrine of Election and Spiritual Insight [00:30:47] Jesse Schwamb: This is what leads me here to say like every parable then implicitly teaches a doctrine of election. [00:30:53] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, because all people are outside the kingdom until they enter the Lord's teaching. How do we enter the Lord's teaching by being given ears to hear. How are we understanding that? We have been given ears to hear when these parables speak to us in the spiritual reality as well as in just like you said, like this general kind of like in the way that I presume Ryan Holiday means it. [00:31:12] Jesse Schwamb: The, this is like, he might be exemplifying the fact that these stories. Are a really great form of the ability to communicate complex information or to make you think. [00:31:21] The Power and Purpose of Parables [00:31:21] Jesse Schwamb: So when Jesus says something like The kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, wow, we, you and I will probably spend like two episodes just unpacking that, or we could spend a lot more, that's beautiful that that's how his teaching takes place. [00:31:34] Jesse Schwamb: But of course it's, it's so much. More than that, that those in whom the teaching is effective on a salvation somehow understand it, and their understanding of it becomes first because Christ is implanted within them. Salvation. [00:31:46] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:48] Parables as More Than Simple Teaching Tools [00:31:48] Tony Arsenal: I think people, and this is what I think like Ryan Holiday's statement reflects, is people think of the parables as a simple teaching tool to break down a complicated subject. [00:32:00] Tony Arsenal: Yes. And so, like if I was trying to explain podcasting to a, like a five-year-old, I would say something like, well, you know. You know how your teacher teaches you during class while a podcast is like if your teacher lived on the internet and you could access your teacher anytime. Like, that might be a weird explanation, but like that's taking a very complicated thing about recording and and RSS feeds and you know, all of these different elements that go into what podcasting is and breaking it down to a simple sub that is not what a parable is. [00:32:30] Tony Arsenal: Right? Right. A parable is not. Just breaking a simple subject down and illustrating it by way of like a, a clever comparison. Um, you know, it's not like someone trying to explain the doctrine of, of the Trinity by using clever analogies or something like that. Even if that were reasonable and impossible. [00:32:50] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's not like that a parable. I like what you're saying about it being kind of like a mini doctrine of election. It's also a mini doctrine of the Bible. Yes. Right. It, it's right on. [00:33:00] The Doctrine of Illumination [00:33:00] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's the doctrine of revelation. In. Preached form in the Ministry of Christ, right? As Christians, we have this text and we affirm that at the same time, uh, what can be known of it and what is necessary for salvation can be known. [00:33:19] Tony Arsenal: By ordinary means like Bart Iman, an avowed atheist who I, I think like all atheists, whether they recognize it or not, hates God. He can read the Bible and understand that what it means is that if you trust Jesus, you'll be saved. You don't need special spiritual insight to understand that that is what the Bible teaches, where the special spiritual. [00:33:42] Tony Arsenal: Insight might not be the right word, but the special spiritual appropriation is that the spirit enables you to receive that unto your salvation. Right? To put your trust in. The reality of that, and we call that doctrine, the doctrine of illumination. And so in, in the sense of parables in Christ's ministry, and this is, this is if you, you know, like what do I always say is just read a little bit more, um, the portion Jesse read it leads way into this prophecy or in this comment, Christ. [00:34:10] Tony Arsenal: Saying he teaches in parable in order to fulfill this prophecy of Isaiah. Basically that like those who are, uh, ate and are apart from God and are resistant to God, these parables there are there in order to confirm that they are. And then it says in verse 16, and this is, this is. [00:34:27] The Blessing of Spiritual Understanding [00:34:27] Tony Arsenal: It always seems like the series that we do ends up with like a theme verse, and this is probably the one verse 16 here, Matthew 1316 says, but blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear. [00:34:40] Tony Arsenal: And so like there's a blessing. In our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and re receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation. That is the doctrine of of election. It's also the doctrine of regeneration, the doctrine of sanctification, the doctrine. [00:35:03] Tony Arsenal: I mean, there's all of these different classic reformed doctrines that the parables really are these mic this microcosm of that. Almost like applied in the Ministry of Christ. Right. Which I, I, you know, I've, I've never really thought of it in depth in that way before, but it's absolutely true and it's super exciting to be able to sort of embark on this, uh, on this series journey with, with this group. [00:35:28] Tony Arsenal: I think it's gonna be so good to just dig into these and really, really hear the gospel preached to ourselves through these parables. That's what I'm looking forward to. [00:35:38] Jesse Schwamb: And we're used to being very. Close with the idea that like the message contains the doctrine, the message contains the power. Here we're saying, I think it's both. [00:35:47] Jesse Schwamb: And the mode of that message also contains, the doctrine also contains the power. And I like where you're going with this because I think what we should be reminding ourselves. Is what a blessing it is to have this kind of information conferred to us. [00:36:01] The Role of Parables in Revealing and Concealing Truth [00:36:01] Jesse Schwamb: That again, God has taken, what is the secrets that is his to disclose and his to keep and his to hold, and he's made it available to his children. [00:36:08] Jesse Schwamb: And part of that is for, as you said, like the strengthening of our own faith. It's also for condemnation. So notice that. The hiding of the kingdom through parables is not a consequence of the teaching itself. Again, this goes back to like the mode being as equally important here as the message itself that Christ's teaching is not too difficult to comprehend as an intellectual matter. [00:36:27] Jesse Schwamb: The thing is, like even today, many unbelievers read the gospels and they technically understand what Jesus means in his teaching, especially these parables. The problem is. I would say like moral hardness. It's that lack of spiritual predilection or predisposition. They know what Jesus teaches, but they do not believe. [00:36:47] Jesse Schwamb: And so the challenge before us is as all scripture reading, that we would go before the Holy Spirit and say, holy Spirit, help me to believe. Help me to understand what to believe. And it so doing, do the work of God, which is to believe in him and to believe in His son Jesus Christ and what he's accomplished. [00:37:02] Jesse Schwamb: So the parables are not like creating. Fresh unbelief and sinners instead, like they're confirming the opposition that's already present and apart from Grace, unregenerate perversely use our Lord's teaching to increase their resistance. That's how it's set up. That's how it works. That's why to be on the inside, as it were, not again, because like we've done the right handshake or met all the right standards, but because of the blood of Christ means that the disciples, the first disciples and all the disciples who will follow after them on the other hand. [00:37:33] The Complexity and Nuances of Parables [00:37:33] Jesse Schwamb: We've been granted these eyes to see, and ears to hear Jesus. And then we've been given the secrets of the kingdom. I mean, that's literally what we've been given. And God's mercy has been extended to the disciples who like many in the crowds, once ignorantly and stubbornly rejected God and us just like them as well in both accounts. [00:37:49] Jesse Schwamb: So this is, I think we need to settle on that. You're right, throughout this series, what a blessing. It's not meant to be a great labor or an effort for the child of God. Instead, it's meant to be a way of exploring these fe. Fantastic truths of who God is and what he's done in such a way that draw us in. [00:38:07] Jesse Schwamb: So that whether we're analyzing again, like the the lost coin or the lost sheep, or. Any number of these amazing parables, you'll notice that they draw us in because they don't give us answers in the explicit sense that we're used to. Like didactically instead. Yeah. They cause us to consider, as you've already said, Tony, like what does it mean to be lost? [00:38:26] Jesse Schwamb: What does it mean that the father comes running for this prodigal son? What does it mean that the older brother has a beef with the whole situation? What does it mean when Jesus says that the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed? How much do we know about mustard seeds? And why would he say that? Again, this is a kind of interesting teaching, but that illumination in the midst of it being, I don't wanna say ambiguous, but open-ended to a degree means that the Holy Spirit must come in and give us that kind of grand knowledge. [00:38:55] Jesse Schwamb: But more than that, believe upon what Jesus is saying. I think that's the critical thing, is somebody will say, well, aren't the teaching simple and therefore easy to understand. In a sense, yes. Like factually yes, but in a much greater sense. Absolutely not. And that's why I think it's so beautiful that he quotes Isaiah there because in that original context, you the, you know, you have God delivering a message through Isaiah. [00:39:17] Jesse Schwamb: Uh. The people are very clear. Like, we just don't believe you're a prophet of God. And like what you're saying is ridiculous, right? And we just don't wanna hear you. This is very different than that. This is, Jesus is giving this message essentially to all who will listen to him, not necessarily hear, but all, all who are hear Him, I guess rather, but not necessarily all who are listening with those spiritual ears. [00:39:33] Jesse Schwamb: And so this is like, I love the way that he, he uses that quote in a slightly different way, but still to express the same root cause, which is some of you here. Because of your depravity will not be able to hear what I'm saying. But for those to whom it has been granted to come in who are ushered into the kingdom, this kingdom language will make sense. [00:39:54] Jesse Schwamb: It's like, I'm going to be speaking to you in code and half of you have the key for all the code because the Holy Spirit is your cipher and half of you don't. And you're gonna, you're gonna listen to the same thing, but you will hear very different things. [00:40:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the other thing I think is, is interesting to ponder on this, um. [00:40:12] The Importance of Context in Interpreting Parables [00:40:12] Tony Arsenal: God always accommodates his revelation to his people. And the parables are, are, are like the. Accommodated accommodation. Yeah. Like God accommodates himself to those he chooses to reveal himself to. And in some ways this is, this is, um, the human ministry of Christ is him accommodating himself to those. [00:40:38] Tony Arsenal: What I mean is in the human ministry of the Son, the parables are a way of the son accommodating himself to those he chooses to reveal himself to. So there, there are instances. Where the parable is said, and it is, uh, it's seems to be more or less understood by everybody. Nobody asks the question about like, what does this mean? [00:40:57] Tony Arsenal: Right? And then there are instances where the parable is said, and even the apostles are, or the disciples are like, what does this parable mean? And then there's some interesting ones where like. Christ's enemies understand the parable and, and can understand that the parable is told against them. About them. [00:41:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So there, there's all these different nuances to why Christ used these parables, how simple they were, how complicated they were. Yes. And again, I think that underscores what I said at the top of the show here. It's like you can't treat every parable exactly the same. And that's where you run into trouble. [00:41:28] Tony Arsenal: Like if you're, if you're coming at them, like they're all just simple allegory. Again, like some of them have allegorical elements. I think it's fair to look at the, the prodigal son or the, the prodigal father, however you want to title that. And remember, the titles are not, generally, the titles are not, um, baked into the text itself. [00:41:46] Tony Arsenal: I think it's fair to come to that and look at and go, okay, well, who's the father in this? Who's the son? You know, what does it mean that the older son is this? Is, is there relevance to the fact that there's a party and that the, you know, the older, older, uh, son is not a part of it? There's, there's some legitimacy to that. [00:42:02] Tony Arsenal: And when we look at Christ's own explanation of some of his parables, he uses those kinds, right? The, the good seed is this, the, the seed that fell on the, the side of the road is this, right? The seed that got choked out by the, the, um, thorns is this, but then there are others where it doesn't make sense to pull it apart, element by element. [00:42:21] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. Um, and, and the other thing is there are some things that we're gonna look at that are, um. We're gonna treat as parables that the text doesn't call a parable. And then there are some that you might even look at that sometimes the text calls a parable that we might not even think of as a normal parable, right? [00:42:38] Tony Arsenal: So there's lots of elements. This is gonna be really fun to just dig stuff in and, and sort of pick it, like pull it apart and look at its component parts and constituent parts. Um, so I really do mean it if you, if you're the kind of person who has never picked up a Bible commentary. This would be a good time to, to start because these can get difficult. [00:42:59] Tony Arsenal: They can get complicated. You want to have a trusted guide, and Jesse and I are gonna do our, our work and our research on this. Um, but you want someone who's more of a trusted guide than us. This is gonna be the one time that I might actually say Calvin's commentaries are not the most helpful. And the reason for that is not because Calvin's not clear on this stuff. [00:43:17] Tony Arsenal: Calvin Calvin's commentaries on the gospel is, is a harmony of the gospels, right? So sometimes it's tricky when you're reading it to try to find like a specific, uh, passage in Matthew because you're, you, everything's interwoven. So something like Matthew Henry, um, or something like, um, Matthew Poole. Uh, might be helpful if you're willing to spend a little bit of money. [00:43:38] Tony Arsenal: The ESV expository commentary that I've referenced before is a good option. Um, but try to find something that's approachable and usable that is reasonable for you to work through the commentary alongside of us, because you are gonna want to spend time reading these on your own, and you're gonna want to, like I said, you're gonna want to have a trust guide with you. [00:43:55] Tony Arsenal: Even just a good study bible, something like. The Reformation Study Bible or something along those lines would help you work your way through these parables, and I think it's valuable to do that. [00:44:06] Jesse Schwamb: Something you just said sparked this idea in me that the power, or one of the powers maybe of good fiction is that it grabs your attention. [00:44:15] The Impact of Parables on Listeners [00:44:15] Jesse Schwamb: It like brings you into the plot maybe even more than just what I said before about it being resonant, that it actually pulls you into the storyline and it makes you think that it's about other people until it's too late. Yeah. And Jesus has a way of doing this that really only maybe the parable can allow. [00:44:30] Jesse Schwamb: So like in other words, by the time you realize. A parable is like metaphorical, or even in a limited case, it's allegorical form you've already identified with one or more of the characters and you're caught in the trap. So what comes to my mind there is like the one Old Testament narrative, virtually identical, informed to those Jesus told is Nathan's parable of the You lamb. [00:44:52] Jesse Schwamb: So that's in like second Samuel 12, and I was just looking this up as you were, as you were speaking. So in this potentially life and death move for the prophet Nathan confronts King David. Over his adultery with, or depending on how you see it, rape of Bathsheba, and then his subsequent murder of her husband Uriah, by sending him to the front lines of battle. [00:45:10] Jesse Schwamb: So he's killed. And so in this parable that Nathan tells Uriah is like the poor man. Bathsheba is like the Yu a and the rich man obviously represents David. If you, you know what I'm talking about, go back and look at second Samuel 12. And so what's interesting is once David is hooked into that story, he cannot deny that his behavior was unjust as that of the rich man in the story who takes this UAM for himself and he, which he openly. [00:45:38] Jesse Schwamb: Then David openly condemns of course, like the amazing climax of this. And as the reader who has. Of course, like omniscient knowledge in the story, you know, the plot of things, right? You're, you're already crying out, like you're throwing something, you know, across the room saying like, how can you not see this about you? [00:45:53] Jesse Schwamb: And of course the climax comes in when Nathan points the finger at David and declares, you are the man. And that's kind of what. The parables due to us. Yes. They're not always like the same in accusatory toward us, but they do call us out. This is where, again, when we talk about like the scripture reading us, the parable is particularly good at that because sometimes we tend to identify, you know, again, with like one of the particular characters whom we probably shouldn't identify with, or like you said, the parable, the sower. [00:46:22] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't the Christian always quick to be like, I am the virtual grounds? Yeah. You still have to ask like, you know, there is not like a Paul washer way of doing this, but there is like a way of saying like, checking yourself before you wreck yourself there. And so when Jesus's parables have lost some of that shock value in today's world, we maybe need to contemporize them a little bit. [00:46:43] Jesse Schwamb: I, and I think we'll talk about that as we go through it. We're not rewriting them for any reason that that would be completely inappropriate. Think about this though. Like the Jew robbed and left for dead. And you know the story of the Grace Samaritan may need to become like the white evangelical man who is helped by like the black Muslim woman after the senior pastor and the worship leader from the local reformed church passed by like that. [00:47:05] Jesse Schwamb: That might be the frame, which we should put it to try to understand it whenever we face a hostile audience that this indirect rhetoric of compelling stories may help at least some people hear God's world more favorably, and I think that's why you get both like a soft. And a sharp edge with these stories. [00:47:20] Jesse Schwamb: But it's the ability to, to kind of come in on the sneak attack. It's to make you feel welcomed in and to identify with somebody. And then sometimes to find that you're identifying entirely with a character whom Jesus is gonna say, listen, don't be this way, or This is what the kingdom of God is, is not like this. [00:47:35] Jesse Schwamb: Or again, to give you shock value, not for the sake of telling like a good tale that somehow has a twist where it's like everybody was actually. All Dead at the end. Another movie, by the way, I have not seen, but I just know that that's like, I'll never see that movie because, can we say it that the spoiler is, is out on that, right? [00:47:54] Tony Arsenal: Are we, what are we talking about? What movie are we talking about? [00:47:56] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I don't, I don't wanna say it. I didn't [00:47:57] Tony Arsenal: even get it from your description. Oh. [00:47:59] Jesse Schwamb: Like that, that movie where like, he was dead the whole time. [00:48:02] Tony Arsenal: Oh, this, that, that, that movie came out like 30 years ago, Jesse. Oh, seriously? [00:48:06] Jesse Schwamb: Okay. All right. [00:48:06] Tony Arsenal: So Six Sense. [00:48:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. That movie came out a long time ago. [00:48:10] Jesse Schwamb: So it's not like the parables are the sixth sense, and it's like, let me get you like a really cool twist. Right. Or like hook at the end. I, and I think in part it is to disarm you and to draw you in in such a way that we might honestly consider what's happening there. [00:48:22] Jesse Schwamb: And that's how it reads us. [00:48:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think that's a good point. And, and. It bears saying there are all sorts of parables all throughout the Bible. It's not just Jesus that teaches these, and they do have this similar effect that they, they draw you in. Um, oftentimes you identify it preliminarily, you identify with the wrong person, and it's not until you. [00:48:45] Tony Arsenal: Or you don't identify with anyone when you should. Right. Right. And it's not until the sort of punchline or I think that account with Nathan is so spot on because it's the same kind of thing. David did not have ears to hear. [00:48:58] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Until he had That's good point. Ears [00:49:00] Tony Arsenal: to hear. [00:49:00] Jesse Schwamb: Good point. [00:49:01] Tony Arsenal: And he heard the point of the parable. [00:49:03] Tony Arsenal: He understood the point of the parable and he didn't understand that the parable was about him, right? It's like the ultimate, I don't know why you're clapping David, I'm talking about you moment. Um, I'm just have this picture of Paul washer in like a biblical era robe. Um, so I think that's a enough progam to the series. [00:49:20] Preparing for the Series on Parables [00:49:20] Tony Arsenal: We're super excited we're, we'll cover some of these principles again, because again, different parables have to be interpreted different ways, and some of these principles apply to one and don't to others, and so we'll, we'll tease that out when we get there next week. We're gonna just jump right in. [00:49:34] Tony Arsenal: We're gonna get started with, I think, um, I actually think, you know, in the, the providence of, of the Holy Spirit and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and then obviously the providence of God in Christ's ministry, the, the parable that kind of like frames all of the other parables,

n this solo episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb dives into a theological exploration of work as an extension of Christian calling that extends far beyond paid employment. Building upon their previous discussion about vocational choices for Christians, Jesse addresses the question: "Does a Christian's work ever cease?" Through careful examination of Ephesians 2:8-10 and other passages, he argues that while the nature of our work may change through different seasons of life—including retirement, caregiving, or illness—God has prepared good works for believers to walk in throughout their entire earthly journey. The episode offers both theological foundations and practical guidance on how Christians can approach all forms of labor as worship, finding purpose and meaning in every season of life. Key Takeaways Good works are not the basis of salvation but its goal—Christians are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), not by works, yet they are saved for good works that God has prepared in advance (Ephesians 2:10). The Christian's work never ceases but changes form—Whether in paid employment, retirement, caregiving, or even during illness, God has prepared meaningful work for believers in every season of life. All work has spiritual value when done unto the Lord—The Reformed tradition elevates all forms of work, not just paid employment, as having potential to glorify God. Prayer is a significant and valuable form of work—Even those who cannot engage in physical labor can participate in the vital spiritual work of intercessory prayer. Good works offer multiple benefits to believers—According to the Westminster Confession, good works manifest gratitude to God, bolster assurance of faith, encourage other Christians, adorn Christian doctrine, silence critics, and glorify God. Christian workers should be distinctively different—Believers can stand out in the workplace by being fair and committed, genuinely caring for others, demonstrating generosity, remaining calm under pressure, and being authentic about their faith. Finding our identity in Christ transforms our approach to work—When we place our ultimate treasure in heaven rather than earthly gain, we can approach our labors with greater peace, purpose, and freedom from anxiety. Elaboration on Key Points The Christian's Work Never Ceases but Changes Form Jesse challenges the modern Western notion that work is merely a season of life that eventually ends with retirement. Instead, he presents a more ancient and biblical perspective: that work never ceases but merely takes different forms throughout our lives. Using Paul's metaphor of "walking" in the good works God has prepared (Ephesians 2:10), Jesse explains that our journey continues throughout life, with the landscape changing as we move through different seasons. Whether we're in paid employment, caring for loved ones, serving in retirement, or confined to a bed during illness, God has prepared meaningful work for us to do. Even those who are physically limited can engage in the vital work of intercessory prayer, which Jesse describes as "the kind of work that is so glorious... that while it exhausts us, it exhausts us in a way that brings us the greatest kind of sleep or refreshment." This perspective eliminates the anxiety many Christians feel about the purpose of their later years and affirms the ongoing value of their contributions to God's kingdom regardless of their physical capacity or economic productivity. Good Works Offer Multiple Benefits to Believers Drawing from the Westminster Confession of Faith, Jesse outlines six significant benefits of good works in the Christian life. First, good works manifest our gratitude to God for the gift of His Son—they become tangible expressions of thankfulness for salvation. Second, they bolster assurance of faith by providing evidence of God's work in our lives. Third, good works encourage other Christians toward greater acts of Christ-centered love, as we witness the transforming power of the gospel in one another. Fourth, they adorn the doctrine of God our Savior, making abstract theological truths visible and attractive to others. Fifth, good works silence critics who devalue biblical Christianity by demonstrating its positive impact. Finally, they glorify God by displaying His transformative work of love in our lives. These benefits apply to all forms of work—paid or unpaid—and give eternal significance to even the most mundane tasks when done unto the Lord. As Jesse emphasizes, "There are no mundane things. There are no small works... There are just these small things that come alongside with the great work that God has done already in our lives." Memorable Quotes "Good works aren't bad when they're seen as the goal of salvation, not its ground. The goal, because it's worthwhile to want to worship God and to obey him by doing good works." "Keep walking on that journey knowing that God all along the way has already prepared good works for you to do because he loves you and because this is our opportunity to worship him together in everything that we do." "When we are performing this work for God, he assures our faith. He refreshes us in it. He exhausts us in the best possible way so that we might love him more, cherish him more, encourage one another more, and really come to understand his character more forthrightly."   Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Keep walking on that journey knowing that God all along the way has already prepared good works for you to do because he loves you and because this is our opportunity to worship him together and everything that we do. [00:00:32] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 459 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast where the tulip never wilts. Hey, brothers and sisters. [00:00:48] Recap of Previous Episode [00:00:48] Jesse Schwamb: So in this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, this solo episode, I'm gonna wrap up a conversation that Tony and I just had in the last episode and set us up, wet Your Appetite for a whole brand new series. [00:01:03] Jesse Schwamb: That's gonna be starting in the next episode. So you find yourself bookended by two really great things. One, a great conversation we just had about the Christian and work. Are there jobs that really Christians shouldn't have? Because it takes us away from what it means to serve the Lord vocationally, as strange as that sounds. [00:01:22] Jesse Schwamb: So if you didn't hear that, you're gonna wanna go check that out before you listen to me, wrap all of us up right now. In fact, here's what you should do. Stop everything you're doing, unless it's operating a vehicle or a backhoe. Power those things down. Get off the side of the road, then go to reformed brotherhood.com and you can find all of the episodes living out there that we've ever recorded, including the one from last week, and I believe will be greatly blessed by hanging out with some of those conversations. [00:01:49] Jesse Schwamb: So go and do that first. [00:01:51] The Christian's Work and Retirement [00:01:51] Jesse Schwamb: On this episode, I'm gonna talk a little bit as a follow up about. Does the Christian's work ever cease? Is there a time, because we just spoke about vocational work and work for which we're remunerated, where once that goes away, what happens next? Is it a different kind of work? [00:02:07] Jesse Schwamb: Is it no work? Should we be the kind of people that are trying to pursue an end to that remunerated work as quick as possible? Is that okay? What happens if we can't be compensated for our work anymore? What happens? We're gonna reason from the scriptures a little bit more about work, our calling and all of that by way of vocation. [00:02:26] Jesse Schwamb: And part of this conversation has actually come from a larger conversation. So one of the greatest and best things about this podcast, something I wanna boast in right now, because it has nothing to do with Tony or me, and that is. There are lots of people listening, brothers and sisters from all over the world who gathered together and debrief. [00:02:47] Jesse Schwamb: Talk about the episodes, hang out and talk about life, share funny stories, share prayer requests, support one another. And you can do that by joining our little group on a messaging app called Telegram. So in fact, here's the second thing you should do. If you go to T Me Reform Brotherhood one more time, T Me Back slash Reform Brotherhood, slap that bad boy in your favorite browser, and that'll give you a link to our little corner of this messaging app. [00:03:13] Jesse Schwamb: And there's a channel within that app just to talk about. The various episodes as a way of interacting with all of us, and as a result of the episode that we recorded last about this idea of vocational work and calling, how does that all come together? Brother Joshua posed an excellent question, which is in part the reason for the conversation I'm about to have with you all, and that is what happens. [00:03:33] Jesse Schwamb: When we retire, or what happens when we desire to set aside sufficient resources if we can, so that we can get to that place as soon as possible. What then what about work or what if we have to care for a sick, sick, loved one? Or what if we have to come and take responsibility for our family in a different or unique way that takes us away from work where we're not being paid for things in the same way anymore? [00:03:52] Jesse Schwamb: What happens then? So we are going to get to all of that on this little brief little episode that's gonna sit in between the end of our conversation on work and the beginning of our brand new series, which, you know, you want me to tell you what it is, but I'm not gonna do it. It's just not gonna happen on this episode. [00:04:09] Jesse Schwamb: So you're just gonna have to sit in that anticipation waiting. Waiting for it to come next week, but for now, let's talk a little bit more about work. [00:04:17] Good Works and Salvation [00:04:17] Jesse Schwamb: And let me start with a, a phrase that's like so obvious, but you can say it with me if you want, because we have to agree on this. At least that good works aren't bad. [00:04:27] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, good works aren't bad. They're good. By definition it seems like self-reinforcing. And as Christians, we should want to do those good works. Now, I haven't said what the good works are, haven't even explained really. Although we, Tony and I talked about this before, how they really fit into that pattern and that normative behavior of the Christian life. [00:04:44] Jesse Schwamb: But can we just agree that if the Bible is saying there are good works for us to do, then they must be good. And they must be there for a purpose. They must be there for a reason and we can't debate that. Just because we're not saved according to our works doesn't mean that we shouldn't be concerned about pursuing a life of joyful obedience to God's word. [00:05:01] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, this is why Jesus like emphatically states in the gospel. If you love me, you'll keep my commandments in obedience. However frail it is. However much we stumble, however feeble we are in actually executing it is our evidence. Our love for God and for his son Jesus Christ. So far from undermining the gospel of grace, good works are the perfect compliment to the gospel, and this is why good works are good. [00:05:29] Jesse Schwamb: So to be clear, good works are bad when they're seen as the basis of salvation. And I think if you've been with us for any length of time or you're familiar with the reform. Theological movement. If you've been steeped in the scriptures, you're gonna find that kind of compulsion, that pull that says like, well, I understand that when I use my good works as a means of somehow Meritoriously earning my salvation, they cease to be good. [00:05:54] Jesse Schwamb: This is why, of course, Jonathan Edwards called Good works of this nature, only glittering sin because they're, they have no power to redeem. They have no power to save. They have no power to. Transition yourself into some kind of a righteous sense or rubric. It's impossible. They will not do that. They do not serve that purpose. [00:06:12] Jesse Schwamb: A person is not saved by works, but by God's grace through faith in Christ. [00:06:17] The Role of Good Works in Christian Life [00:06:17] Jesse Schwamb: So this is the time where we have to love ones. Go to Ephesians chapter two. It's impossible for me to continue without at least sharing this good news. If you need to hear this again, and this may be a well rehearsed verse or a well rehearsed writing from the Apostle Paul to you, but I ask that you hear it again. [00:06:32] Jesse Schwamb: If you can with these ears that are unstopped, that are almost fresh with excitement for this really good news, this is what Paul writes to the church and Ephesus for. By grace, you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not as a result of works so that no one may boast. [00:06:51] Jesse Schwamb: For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. I mean, there's so much there that is. Lovely and refreshing. And freeing. It's not works righteousness, it's not meritorious. Salvation is clearly not of our own doing. It's not the result of these works, even the faith through which we receive salvation is a gracious, gracious gift from God. [00:07:21] Jesse Schwamb: So what a just burden taken off of our shoulders. The mantle has been removed from us. To somehow even equate or think that, well, if I have a good day and I've done a lot for God, he must love me more. I must be more ingratiated towards him, even if I have the sense that. I feel closer to him. Hopefully that closeness is the sense of joy and obedience. [00:07:40] Jesse Schwamb: And now where we get the sense that, well, because I've done something for God, he ought to do something for me or me more favorably disposed towards me. All of that is nonsense and that way just. Total foolishness and madness lies. Instead, when we turn that into our rejoicing first for the faith itself by which we receive from God, that grants us access to this great salvation. [00:08:02] Jesse Schwamb: When we see that as a gift first, then all of this other mongering for responsibility and trying to placate through the things that we can do and having this sense of guilt in our minds about what we should have done or what we did not accomplish, or even if in our own obedience toward Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, we've fallen short. [00:08:20] Jesse Schwamb: We can still find there is this gift for us and the gift of salvation is ours in Christ through faith, not by works. It's very, very clear in what Paul writes to the church here as fallen creatures, even our best efforts are completely laced with sin. This also is, by the way, a really great kindness of God that we can never really be contrite enough in our coming before him and, and even in our humility, we probably can never be humble enough. [00:08:47] Jesse Schwamb: So the fact that God accepts because of Christ us into the family of God without having to put upon us this burden that you must be sorry enough for your sin, or you're not repentant enough, you haven't expressed the severe and necessary amount of contrition to really placate and understand that you have cosmically committed treason against the all powerful God of the universe. [00:09:13] Jesse Schwamb: Who could stand underneath that kind of weight. And the answer is no one, but by the grace of God through Jesus. So it's amazing. That when we start to think about work, what we find is that God is first doing all of the work in us, and we see that the first work is not our work, but his work, the secondary work, this means of obedience, of showing, our gratitude of expressing praise and worship. [00:09:37] Jesse Schwamb: Must, I think, necessarily be manifest in work that is labor of some kind, because God has first expressed himself in that kind of labor. And second, he's given it to us to do as an experience into his very being and his character, but also in service to him and to those who are around us. I promise I'm getting to all of this good stuff about what does this practically mean, but all this I think is so necessary for us. [00:10:02] Jesse Schwamb: To really set the proper understanding for what it means to have good work to do and to do this work. So these good works provide no basis for boasting because they're utterly worthless to save. They have worth in other ways, but it just turns out they're worthless In this way. It's a bit like if you take your, take your, whatever your domestic currency is, whatever the currency you, you transact in, I live and hang out in the United States, so my currency is the US dollar. [00:10:24] Jesse Schwamb: If I take a bunch of dollars with me and I go travel almost anywhere else in the world. There's a small chance they'll be accepted. And I realize I've picked the wrong currency for this metaphor at this point, but if I let, let's say, let's just pick a different one. Let's say that you live in Zimbabwe or you just happen to have a bunch of Zimbabwean dollars hanging out in your pocket. [00:10:42] Jesse Schwamb: I'm sure some of you do, and you take that currency and you come to the United States and you wanna go buy something, those dollars will not work. They just won't work. Nobody will accept them. They're worthless. They're without value. Now, do they have value? In a certain sense, of course they do. In that domestic currency, in that homeland they do. [00:10:59] Jesse Schwamb: And in the same way, though, of course, slightly different here, our works are these expression of. Obedience of love for God. But the minute we try to exchange them for salvation, what we're gonna find is God says that's worthless here. And it again, is a fool's errand to build your entire life on some kinda system or belief that says, what I'm doing is earning these dollars, making these good works, performing these things. [00:11:22] Jesse Schwamb: So I'll have gathered to myself all of this currency, which I'm then going to use to buy my salvation now, I think even in my own ears, that sounds ridiculous to say, and yet so many of us. Get caught up in that. And if we don't get caught up in whole, we sometimes get caught up in it peace wise, because again, we have a sense that, well, if I've been a particularly good Christian today, doesn't that mean that God is more happy with me? [00:11:45] Jesse Schwamb: And Paul says, no, you have been saved as a gift of God. It is his gracious act that through faith you have been given salvation, and that faith was not of your own. That itself as well was a gift. It's gift upon gift upon gift. And so even the work itself is shaped. By the sense that all that God gives us and him doing all the verbs is his gifting. [00:12:09] Jesse Schwamb: So good works are gonna provide no basis for boasting because they are worthless to save. And the only foundation for salvation is Christ, we're saved by his works, not ours. If you're looking for that good, that first, that perfect work, the thing that you could latch onto, the thing that you would say this, I'm gonna hang my hat. [00:12:27] Jesse Schwamb: And all of my life on the work that you're looking for is not the one that you can accomplish. It is the one that Jesus has already done on your behalf. So that's why I always think when I see those W wait, they're not as prevalent anymore I suppose. But do you remember a time loved ones when like the ubiquity of the WAJD bracelet and I always thought about the question, what would Jesus do? [00:12:49] Jesse Schwamb: And to me, the answer I give now somewhat tongue in cheek is everything and it's already been done. And so that is really the promise. The great blessing of the gospel that now we are saved for works and boy does that preposition make a difference. Like we should be underlining that, like putting that gilded gold in our Bibles like we are saved now for God works good, works are not bad then when they're seen as the goal of salvation, not its ground. [00:13:14] Jesse Schwamb: I wanna say that again because I think that might sound a little bit funny to some, but I've long really come to cherish this idea that it is the goal but not the ground. The goal, because it's worthwhile to want to worship God. And to obey him by doing good works. And Paul gives us an avenue in which to travel and to understand this and to reason it from the scripture so that we can be confident that that's exactly what God intends for us. [00:13:37] Jesse Schwamb: And so again, while these good works aren't meritorious salvation, they are a necessary component of Christian faith. And the first important thing that we ought to mention here. Is that when we think about work, it's not that like the reform tradition, that that theological perspective has somehow elevated work for remuneration. [00:13:55] Jesse Schwamb: I, I don't think that entirely was the whole emphasis of talking about vocation in that kind of theological sphere. That is, we have a bunch of Christians and they have to do work to survive, and some of them are cobblers and of them are cooks and some of them are cleaners. And so what we really need to do here is make sure that people understand that whatever you're getting paid for God has made you to do. [00:14:15] Jesse Schwamb: And that is not a great thing. That's all true, but the goal wasn't just to elevate that style or type of work that is the work for which you get compensated. It was to elevate all work, all work of every kind, all labor of every kind, because God is big enough that every bit of labor paid or unpaid in direct service for somebody. [00:14:34] Jesse Schwamb: Fortunately, there is no compensation or in service to someone for which there is that all of that work. It does give God glory if we mean it to. And so this is why they do all things. Whatever you do, whether you eat or whether you drink, all of even these tiny things roll up into this argument from the lesser to the greater all of work is for God's glory. [00:14:53] Jesse Schwamb: And so to tip my hat a little bit here, then I think an answer to, to Brother Joshua's question, and in a nice compliment to what Tony and I were talking about last week, there is no end to the Christian's work. There's just different types of work. Oh, we'll get to that. I'm a little bit ahead of myself here. [00:15:08] Jesse Schwamb: But of course we find in Ephesians two, it's important to understand this because there's so much of the dynamic of good works in the Christian life that are being explained there. And of course we learn that good works are the result and not the cause of being new creations, and they're testifying to the fact that we have been redeemed. [00:15:24] Jesse Schwamb: So our lives might reflect craftsmanship and character of God. So amazing, isn't it? That God has given work, that work is not a four letter word, that labor is good labor of all kinds. Is good because it's reflecting the craftsmanship in character of God in unique ways. That is like apart from doing work from this work which God has called us to, from traveling in it through our lives and participating in all kinds of different work, that there's something that would be missing in our exemplifying, the craftsmanship in character of God. [00:15:56] Jesse Schwamb: And so we see that apart from Christ. We can do nothing that pleases God, but in Christ. And here's a great promise. We are created to perform God honoring acts of obedience in Christ. We can be confident that God accepts our weak and wobbly efforts. You know, Paul further goes on to talk about good works, a result of God's pattern for the Christian life. [00:16:15] Jesse Schwamb: We don't need to wonder what God requires from us. He's told us in his word, good works are deeds done in conformity to God's word. Now the beauty of that is. That we have this pattern for the Christian life in which Paul is saying, and I think this is really helpful for our conversation, that all of the things that God has given us to do, he's already prepared. [00:16:39] Jesse Schwamb: He's already me and plus it. He's already set the table for us. He's already put all the things in place. He's already organized all the details. And he says that because he's done that we are now free to walk in them. And I interpret that walk as this idea, which I think is very particular to the way that Paul is writing here. [00:16:57] Jesse Schwamb: It's a word of encouragement that is speaking of more of a marathon and rather a sprint. So of course, like a lot of times in the West, we think of our work as a season of life in which we're doing something in service for a company and for others, creating value, which is good. All of these things can be in service to God, of course, especially when they're in honoring. [00:17:15] Jesse Schwamb: With a full counsel of the scriptures and that when we do those things, that time will end and then we start to think about what work do have left. Whereas really, of course, a more ancient way of thinking about work was that it never ceased. It was of different kinds, and we know it was of different kinds because of this idea of walking that is like you never says stop the walk. [00:17:32] Jesse Schwamb: It never says take a break. It says you're gonna continue throughout your life in this metaphor of. Your journey of life being a walk, and as that walk changes, as the landscape undulates, as you move and transverse over different geographies on this walk in this metaphor, there's no doubt that the work will be different. [00:17:50] Jesse Schwamb: And there may be a season when you no longer have to work and be compensated, but it doesn't mean, of course, that the work ends. In fact, the work is still there. It's a different kind. And we don't want it to go away, in fact, and we don't want it to feel, uh, like it should be a, a lesser thing because it's not because we've been given in this verse the sense that this is the pattern that's been given to us. [00:18:12] Jesse Schwamb: It's the value of walking the pathway of obedience. And Paul makes it manifold. In fact, the Westminster Confession of Faith, which I'm 17 minutes in and you can mark your clock. That's the first time I mentioned it. I've gotten there already. Loved ones. Don't worry, we're always gonna bring in a confession. [00:18:27] Encouragement and Assurance Through Good Works [00:18:27] Jesse Schwamb: And on this week, it's the confession of faith from the Westminster states that there are at least six benefits of good work. So here these out, this is just my quick rundown of what the Westminster puts forward thinking about these good works and when you hear these benefits. Think about them in the broadest way. [00:18:41] Jesse Schwamb: That is like, think about how these benefits apply to all kinds of work, not just like your nine to five, but like of course your family society and the church and your work there is needed both because it is an exemplification of obedience to Christ, but also because it is accomplishing good and creating value. [00:18:58] Jesse Schwamb: So the first is that good works manifest our gratitude to God for the gift of his son. Now think about this. If that's true, that this in a concrete way. No matter what, we're able to do that we, if we're doing these good works, we're showing gratitude to God. Why would we ever want those good works to go away? [00:19:14] Jesse Schwamb: Why do we wanna break that pattern? We don't want to. And again, this gives a, a high level, a high calling to all the things that we can do, both like again, in our paid work and then thereafter. Or even if we, we never have paid work that all of these things, there's something for us to do here and it manifests our gratitude to God and the gift of his son. [00:19:32] Jesse Schwamb: The second thing is good work's, bolster assurances of faith. So it is the Christian who in obedience to Christ has a compulsion is as Paul would say elsewhere, hemmed in by the love of God to work towards a specific end in love and service toward others. That is a good work. And when we're doing that good work, there's a mutual kind of reinforcement that occurs that as we humble ourselves before God and that we work to. [00:19:57] Jesse Schwamb: Or to obey him and that we walk in the good works that he has prepared for us, that we find that we are sure that God is who he is, that his character and craftsmanship is, is in fact manifest in us and demonstrated by us. And in this way as we worship him, we find that our faith grows. Especially perhaps when we're called to do things that are difficult or we're called to participate in work, especially in the church, that requires some kind of leap of faith and we're in so doing where we must trust God forthrightly. [00:20:27] Jesse Schwamb: We find that doing those good works bolster our assurance of faith. Number three. Good works are a means of encouraging other Christians toward greater acts of Christ-centered love. There's so much in Hebrews chapter 10 that we could talk about there. This is an incredible idea that when we work towards obeying God laboring on his behalf in all of the spheres of life, to which he has given us to participate in that Christians receive this as a. [00:20:55] Jesse Schwamb: Form of encouragement. You know, think about how you've seen the testifying work of somebody else in your church, in their patience, in their kind behavior. You know, we often speak about a person who is graceful, and by that of course, we mean there's a beauty to their outer movement, as it were. That's maybe they're a graceful dancer. [00:21:11] Jesse Schwamb: Maybe they're a grace or a baseball player, but you'll find that you can apply this word in so many ways whenever you are trying to really show that somebody in their outward movements does things particularly well, or just with ease or in a way that conveys a certain kind of beauty. When we say that somebody is gracious, what we essentially mean is that there's a beauty to their inner movement that is, that the exemplification of who they are in Christ is so firmly rooted in solid, that the way they behave in situations and circumstances clearly shows. [00:21:43] Jesse Schwamb: That there's something different about the way that they process the world and in the way that they work. And when we see that we are prone to be encouraged to see that God is real, that he does intervene and interact in situations that he does, in fact still do the most miraculous thing ever, which is take the sinner, take the gospel abuser, take the unregenerate, and perform that surgical movement. [00:22:05] Jesse Schwamb: Where that heart of stone is replaced with one of flesh, it's the greatest miracle in the entire universe. And so when we're seeing that work exemplified, we're allowing ourselves to participate in encouraging our brothers and sisters. Fourth good works are concrete avenues for adorning the doctrine of God, our savior in life, in ministry. [00:22:25] Jesse Schwamb: So again, it's uniting this idea of who we are, that we say we are, who we are in our transformation regeneration, marrying that up with work. And this is, again, why a. All of this reform of theology elevates work to this place of saying, whatever you do, you can do it to the glory of God and you ought to, you ought to be thinking that way because this is the way God intended all the things that we do to be done. [00:22:47] Jesse Schwamb: So idea of like when Paul says, like, pray without ceasing, be constantly in the Lord. I think in some ways what he's saying is. When you shift your mindset to recognize that there are no mundane things to do because God has prepared all those things ahead of time, they're, they're mundane, maybe in their smallness, in our own like really myopic kind of human natural man perspective. [00:23:06] Jesse Schwamb: They are certainly not mundane with respect to the power of love that may be communicated in them with the encouragement that flows out of them, and with the expression of gratitude for God, our savior and his son. All of those things are high and lifted up worthy of exaltation and call worthy of all of our efforts. [00:23:23] Jesse Schwamb: And so there we find that there are really no mundane things. There are no small works as it were. There are just these small things that come alongside with the great work that God has done already in our lives and our expression of that first work that he has done. So Fifth Good Works, silence critics who devalue the goodness of biblical Christianity. [00:23:43] Jesse Schwamb: You know, there's a lot here that we could talk about. Jesus was so outspoken about what it meant for his followers to adorn themselves to be in Christ, and in so doing, they were gonna be these lights set on a, like a city on a hill for all to see. And sometimes as Christians, we get a little, eh, strange about this kind of thing, don't we? [00:24:01] Jesse Schwamb: Because we, we wanna be careful that we need to be humble. You know, we, we want to make sure that as we're serving God, that we are not boasting in that in any kind of way, and yet there is something here where we ought to be giving and testifying to why we do certain things. I've been thinking about this a lot because I think it's one thing for us to say, well, we wanna live in such a manner. [00:24:21] Jesse Schwamb: We wanna do our work in such a manner, whatever that is, so others know there's something different and, and this is noble and honorable. I think what's even better is to let them know why it's different. Sometimes you shouldn't wait for somebody to ask. You know, if it's clear that you're doing something and you wanna express why we're doing it, say, I'm, I'm doing this 'cause Jesus loves me, he's changed me, and Jesus loves you. [00:24:39] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, this is okay to say loved ones. And I think in doing that, making that connection clear, what it's gonna do is it's going to make sure that those who would say like the, the Bible is antiquated out wounded document. It's a document that's filled with strife. It's a document that pits won't people against one another. [00:24:54] Jesse Schwamb: It's a document that is not progressive enough. What they'll find instead is. When our good works, our truly good works are accompanied by a verbal testimony of why we do these works in obedience to God for, because of his great love for us. It will discredit those who would say all of those things. It turns away a. [00:25:14] Jesse Schwamb: All of the critics would say that the Bible is, is not relevant, that Christians are too, uh, bigoted, that we are the kind of people that are too hypocritical. Instead, when we acknowledge that we are far from perfect, but that we have a perfect savior when we talk about our weak faith, but that our, the faith that we have is not in its size, but in the size of the savior. [00:25:34] Jesse Schwamb: When we can say all these things alongside of our efforts to be obedient. Being humble, asking for forgiveness, seeking repentance from those whom we hurt, that in this way, we are again doing all of the things that are the theology of the cross, that even in our small weaknesses, even in our great failures, what we find is God does more than just to fill in the gaps He overflows with through the power of His Holy Spirit into a powerful testimony into the lives of others with whom we interact, and especially in the things that we do. [00:26:05] Jesse Schwamb: So six. And lastly, this is from the Westminster. These benefits of good works. Last Good works glorify God by displaying his work of love in our lives. I think we often forget about this. That God has given us work because he loves us. Of course, God is always working. There's something beautiful about the fact that God is ever present in our lives working in our hearts. [00:26:29] Jesse Schwamb: And sometimes of course, as the, the older reformers have said, he lays us over the Anil, as it were, and he hammers on us, and those are painful times. And other times he's really polishing up our sharp edges or sanding off those places where we need a little bit of attention. But everywhere he's working in us and what a blessing that he never stops, isn't it that he comes to us constantly because he loves us. [00:26:51] Jesse Schwamb: He refuses to leave us in a state that is less than the abundant life. Now we know that we will never accomplish that, this side of glory. But what a benefit that God never gives up on us. That he continues to show his great love for us in how he attentively comes into our lives to hone us in this progressive sanctification, whereby his work doesn't stop. [00:27:13] The Unending Nature of Work [00:27:13] Jesse Schwamb: And so because his work doesn't stop. Neither does ours. So the beauty of this is for anybody else, for us, for brother Joshua, for those who are thinking about, you know, what if I, I want to maybe try to set aside more resources now so I can stop my work of re of compensation to do other things, I would say. [00:27:31] Jesse Schwamb: Well, Godspeed by, by the power of God, I, I hope that happens for you. And what about those who would say, well, my work is gonna have to be caring for a loved one who's ill? I would say that is great and good work. What about those for who are retiring now or thinking about retirement? What's left? Tons. Of good work. [00:27:48] Jesse Schwamb: I think we know this. Now, what about for those who are in the final stages of their life, those who are not ambulatory, maybe those who are weak, maybe those who are ill themselves. There is still good work because the work that God gives us is not the heavy kind that causes our bodies or our minds to be crushed in despair, to have to till the ground as it were in such a way that it leaves us lacking replenishment instead, even for those. [00:28:16] Jesse Schwamb: Who are saying, what is my place when my body is wasting away? [00:28:21] The Value of Prayer in Our Work [00:28:21] Jesse Schwamb: When I'm having a, a season of sickness and I feel like there's nothing I can do, there is so much that the church needs from you in particular, especially your work in prayer. And again, I think we've been outspoken. Prayer is absolutely a work. [00:28:34] Jesse Schwamb: If you don't believe me, just. Try to pray. So just being able to participate in something like that, which is in many ways maybe the greatest calling. I, I always think about this phrase, when we work, we work, when we pray, God works. And so just the act of saying I'm gonna devote myself in prayer, in intercessory prayer for my church, for my community, for my family, is a kind of work that is unparalleled. [00:28:58] Jesse Schwamb: And so if that's the work that God has given you to walk in right now. Then would you please do it? Because it is the season to which he's called you because he's with you on that journey. And Paul says, wherever you go, wherever you are walking, God has already prepared before you get to the next stop sign, before you get to the next wave point, before you get to the next pin drop. [00:29:17] Jesse Schwamb: God has already prepared for you good works, and you're mealing to walk in them. [00:29:22] Finding Joy and Refreshment in Labor [00:29:22] Jesse Schwamb: And so the work of prayer by itself is the kind of work that is so glorious, like all the work of Christ that we find refreshment and it changes. There's a theme here, like all of our work changes because when we are doing it onto the Lord, we're doing it with him in mind when we're understanding that this is our obligation, but also our greatest privilege, that while it exhausts us. [00:29:41] Jesse Schwamb: It exhausts us in a way that brings us the greatest kind of sleep or refreshment. Does that make sense? We ever had like a really great day at work where, you know, I, I worked hard and I did work worth doing, and in that I felt that there was a sweetness. In fact, Ecclesiastes five 12 says, sweet is the sleep of a laborer, whether he eats little or much, but the full stomach of the rich man will not let him sleep. [00:30:05] Jesse Schwamb: This idea that. Why as we work, as we labor for God, that he does restore us, he gives us joy and satisfaction in that work. And again, there's this, all this mutual reinforcement, this kind of self-fulfilling and reinforcing idea that. When we are performing this work for God, he assures our faith. He refreshes us in it. [00:30:24] Jesse Schwamb: He exhausts us in the best possible way so that we might love him more, cherish him more, encourage one another more, and to really come and understand his character more forthrightly. [00:30:34] Living Quietly and Minding Your Affairs [00:30:34] Jesse Schwamb: I like what Paul says in one Thessalonians chapter four, aspire to live quietly and to mind your own affairs. I mean, that's. [00:30:42] Jesse Schwamb: Good advice for all of us, mind your own affairs and to work with your hands as we instructed you, so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one. So we talked before about what it means, that really in our work, we ought to care for those who we love. We ought to make sure that we can provide for them, but there will also be seasons. [00:30:59] Jesse Schwamb: One, there will be others who need to provide for us. And so in so doing, again, we're honoring God by walking in this path that he has given us, uh, to do. I like this. There's a couple of other great verses I think that are helpful for us to really think about what it means to have good work to do and to understand that good work. [00:31:17] The Blessing of Giving [00:31:17] Jesse Schwamb: Here's from Acts chapter 20. Paul says, in all things I've shown you that by working hard in this way, we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus. How He himself said, it is more blessed to give than to receive. So think about that there. There is an expression right there about work and what is this working hard. [00:31:35] Jesse Schwamb: It's to help the weak and to remember the words of Lord Jesus Christ. It is more blessed to give, to receive than to receive. Love always leads to giving for God. So love the world that he. Gave, and I think part of this good work that God calls us to is just giving. And so like right now, you may be in a season where you are giving of your labor in return for compensation, for that labor, but presumably there will, and there should come a time when you'll be giving it and you'll not be receiving that. [00:32:00] Jesse Schwamb: But it doesn't lessen the work. It doesn't take it away. It doesn't mean that it's not necessary anymore. We ought to continue to pursue that because love always leads to giving. Now I want to just finish our short little time together today as we've reasoned, hopefully. [00:32:15] Practical Ways to Exemplify Christian Values at Work [00:32:15] Jesse Schwamb: In a profound way from the scriptures helping us to be encouraged in this work by just a couple of things that if you are thinking in the sense of what can I do right now in my work of all kinds to exemplify and to be driven by unique view of humanity and a love rooted in the wisdom of the cross to stand out, what, what can we do as Christians, practically speaking. [00:32:37] Jesse Schwamb: To take everything that Paul has just given us here, appreciating this beautiful pattern that work is just gonna be part of our lives forever. And by the way, loved ones I, I have a strong conviction that in the new heavens and new Earth, that work will still be present there in a fully orbed and fully expressed, fully realized way that it's not capable today because of everything being mined by sin. [00:32:59] Jesse Schwamb: But then we're gonna find that this is just like an amm bush. It's the taste that. The thing that's coming for us, the appetizer of how work is gonna be fully satisfying, fully encouraging, fully joyful, and a full expression of how God has made us to do things. One of those things again are laboring in prayer, laboring on the construction site, laboring on a desk, laboring in the education and the teaching and ammunition of children. [00:33:24] Jesse Schwamb: All of these things are just really, really good. So what are a couple of things that we can do? Well, here's some things that that come to my mind. The first is that I think Christians can be known as the most care fairing and committed kind of people. So. Think about it this way, driven by the father's love and his acceptance of us through Jesus, we can be the kind of people that are known as fair, caring, and committed to others. [00:33:52] Jesse Schwamb: Since we know the depths of our own sin and the magnitude of God's grace to us, we can be ready to forgive and reconcile with others, and we should be quick to do so if we're doing that in their work environments. Whatever that environment is, there's no doubt this is gonna draw some fair amount of attention. [00:34:07] Jesse Schwamb: We may actually, and this is gonna sound a little bit wild. We may even have opportunities to take risks for the benefit of others. Now imagine it this way. Let's say that everybody has somebody to whom they're responsible and almost everybody else has somebody who's responsible to them. So think of it this way, if you are leading any kind of group of people, formerly or informally, you may have a unique opportunity to take risks on the behalf of those people. [00:34:30] Jesse Schwamb: Now, that may be may mean advocating for them. It could mean yielding to them, even if you have a hierarchical position that's above them. But more than anything, it could mean that you actually take a risk to take responsibility at times. So it's possible that let's say you're a leading a team and you're a place of work, and one of the people who is responsible to you, that is one of the people who reports to you, makes a mistake. [00:34:52] Jesse Schwamb: Let's say that the person that you are responsible to, your boss finds out about this. There's lots of ways you could go about this. Now, you may feel that you want to be easy just to say, well, this wasn't me. It was their fault. But consider how a Christian might approach this in love. It's possible that it may be entirely appropriate for that leader to take responsibility for the mistake, not taking blame for it, but taking responsibility for it as an act and expression of what it means to be fair, caring, and committed to others. [00:35:20] Jesse Schwamb: And now this may mean that if you were that person, you might lose a little bit of cloud to the organization. You might use a little bit of reputation or ability to maneuver within the organization, but there could be a very powerful, could be testimony in your ability to risk yourself for others in a way that I believe, again, is walking in this path of good works and that you are reasonable people. [00:35:41] Jesse Schwamb: You can sort out, I think in a situation like that. What kind of responsibility you might have, but I think it's important for us to consider that we may have that kind of responsibility and that to be known as fair, caring and committed to others. To advocate for them to again, forgive and to reconcile, and then sometimes to take risks of opportunity for the benefit of others is something that is unique to the Christian. [00:36:00] Jesse Schwamb: I think we at least agree on that, that kind of response to a s. We'll be wholeheartedly unique. [00:36:06] Generosity and Kingdom Living [00:36:06] Jesse Schwamb: I think we also need to be known as generous and depending on the context and opportunity, generosity at work can be expressed in so many different ways. Managers can be generous with their advice, their access, their investment in people. [00:36:17] Jesse Schwamb: All of us can be generous with our time, our money sharing our resources. Sacrificially. If you're a small business owner, and this is gonna sound wild, but let's, let's talk about kingdom living for a second. Loved ones like I presumably you're listening to this because we're not just satisfied with the small things. [00:36:31] Jesse Schwamb: We wanna think big in what it means. For the gospel to go out, for Jesus to be known. And so in this context of being generous, maybe it means if you're a small business owner, that you're willing to take less personal profit to benefit your neighbors or your customers or your employees. You know, I think of this company called a Go. [00:36:47] Jesse Schwamb: Which is a wooden toy company and it's, it was founded by a couple of Christians and driven by their Christian faith. They intentionally take smaller profit margins to benefit the people of Honduras where the wood is sourced and to create an employee savings program for them. I mean, that what a remarkable thing what, what a counter-cultural expression of what it means to be doing good. [00:37:08] Jesse Schwamb: Work. And so we can also grow and show our generosity to our colleagues by loving them outside work. You know, cooking a meal, preparing a meal for them when they have a child or attending a funeral if they lose a loved one, grabbing dinner with them if they're struggling, joining their club sports team, attending their wedding. [00:37:23] Jesse Schwamb: You know, generosity during, after work hours is a testimony of love. It shows that you see them as a whole person, not merely as like a productive asset or just a colleague. So I think we should push back a little bit on being generous and maybe sometimes I, I wanna say this. Gently because we are a benefit ourselves in this podcast of this, but not just with your money, especially with your time and maybe with like your attentional focus, maybe with your prayer time. [00:37:47] Jesse Schwamb: Maybe with your labor, in your prayer closet, that of all the things you could focus on, how often are we praying for our colleagues, like really praying that they would come to see the gospel in us, that we would be courageous in expressing that gospel and that God would arrest their hearts, which snatch them up and bring them into his kingdom so that all of our workplaces would be filled, uh, with Christians, that they would be everywhere. [00:38:08] Jesse Schwamb: Doing all kinds of things in som, much as God calls us to those things in submission to him, an expression of who he is and in obedience to what he's done for us. Here's another thing. I think this is a big one. It's one that I struggle with in my own life. [00:38:23] The Importance of Calmness and Authenticity [00:38:23] Jesse Schwamb: So I think another place, another way in which we can really stand out as Christians in our good work is to be known as calm. [00:38:30] Jesse Schwamb: Poised in the face of difficulty, failure or struggle. This might be the most telling way to judge if a person is drawing on the resources of the gospel and the development of their character. And this goes back to this idea of like, what does the a voracious person mean? It's, it's somebody who has like that inner. [00:38:47] Jesse Schwamb: Beauty expression of inner inner beauty. You know, how do we act when our boss passes over us for a promotion? How do we act if we fail to get that bonus we expected or, or if like a colleague is placed on a team we want to be on, how do we respond to those things really reveals where we placed our hope and identity. [00:39:03] Jesse Schwamb: And that can be a whole nother. Podcast. But if it's true that we have rooted ourselves, grounded ourselves, securely in Christ, then that is the supreme treasure that we have, and then everything else should be like, oh, that's no big deal. It's not to say that we're not gonna have big emotions, but even as we experience those big emotions, part of what it means to be humble is to come before God and say, God, I'm feeling this way. [00:39:26] Jesse Schwamb: And I'm a contingent being and I'm upset about this. Would you help me to reveal your gospel in this situation? And what a blessing in our progressive sanctification where God moves us into that space so that what becomes normative is when everybody else is losing their minds, when everybody else is gossiping, when everybody else is complaining. [00:39:46] Jesse Schwamb: What everybody else is pushing back here is the Christian who is resolute in firm and is speaking words of life. Encouragement into their workplace or those whom they're doing their work, who is speaking the gospel to them, who is calm and is poised and is ready to lead in such a way that brings value to everybody, helps 'em to find the true security in the situation and is not willing to compromise by participating in a meaningless backtalk. [00:40:12] Jesse Schwamb: That is an incredible testimony, and there's no doubt it's gonna cause us to stand out. There is something about this placing value that I think is important to mention. And I think I mentioned this before, but Tony's not here and I'm just talking. And so my experience, my professional career is all in the realm of finance. [00:40:30] Jesse Schwamb: So I've gotta use this because I think about this a lot and it's certainly relevant to us thinking about where is our value. [00:40:38] The Concept of True Treasure [00:40:38] Jesse Schwamb: I find it so interesting. That in the sermon on the mound. And when Jesus is speaking about treasures, he doesn't completely say that we should forsake treasures. Have you ever thought about that? [00:40:50] Jesse Schwamb: So instead of saying, you know, listen, don't worry about the treasure, just focus on me. Don't try to go after things. Just focus on me. And somebody says, listen. Listen, listen. You're going after the wrong treasure. So don't go after treasure where you know a moth or Russ is gonna destroy it or where like you're gonna be worried. [00:41:09] Jesse Schwamb: A thief is gonna break in and steal it. All those things are not just temporal, they can be taken from you. In fact, they, they will be taken from you. This is the wild part to me. He says instead, rather than do that, here's what you should do. Seek after the treasure that's in heaven. In other words, the proclivity to want to grab hold of valuable things and to keep them close to you, that is not bad in and of itself. [00:41:32] Jesse Schwamb: It's that you are focusing on the wrong thing that you want to grab and hold close. Seek after those treasures in heaven. And I can tell you why. This just shows the brilliancy with which Jesus knows us because he has created us loved ones, and in our fallen state, he's so kind to condescend to be like us, yet of course, without sin. [00:41:50] Jesse Schwamb: And in that he expresses a great knowledge of who we are and how we are. So. There's a very famous study done, actually very many versions of this study done, and what they'll do, and you can play along, I know I've done this before, but as you're sitting there listening to my voice play along with the scenario that I'm about to give you, and you can answer for yourself what you would do in this situation. [00:42:11] Jesse Schwamb: There's no right or wrong answer. So here's the situation. Researchers gave per people two options. They said, you, I can either give you a thousand dollars for sure, or. Or we can play a game. We'll flip a coin. If the coin is heads, you get $2,000, but if the coin comes up, tails, you get nothing. So the choices were you could have a sure thousand dollars or you could risk it. [00:42:39] Jesse Schwamb: And with a coin flip, a fair coin flip, you could get either $2,000 or zero. Now I'll pause. What would you prefer if you're like most people? You would take the sure $1,000 because you'd rather have for sure a thousand dollars in your pocket than giving up the gamble. Even though you could get twice as much the gamble of $2,000 or zero, who wants to walk away with zero when somebody's like, I'll give you a thousand dollars for certain. [00:43:06] Jesse Schwamb: Most people would prefer the certainty. Now those who are like keen have a turn of mind for mathematics are gonna realize that on average, those two options are exactly the same. So whether you get a thousand dollars. For certain, you got the a thousand dollars on the other option, half the time you'll get zero. [00:43:23] Jesse Schwamb: Half the time you'll get a $2,000. If you average those out, that's sequel to a thousand dollars over the long term. So there's something interesting there too, isn't it? See how our minds are working that we prefer, we are loss averse. In other words, we do not like loss. In fact, there's a very famous. [00:43:39] Jesse Schwamb: Theorem about this that says the pain of losing a dollar is twice as great as the pain of gaining one. And this is why it's so hard. If you have a retirement account, you have investments somewhere. When you look at your accounts and the numbers are down, you feel particularly awful. And when they're up, you feel good, but not that great. [00:43:54] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, this is the idea of. Being a loss averse. Now, here's the other thing that these researchers did. They flipped the whole scenario, and I'm gonna give you one more thing to think about. So rather than talking about gains, they said these people, okay, here's your choice, and you have to choose one of these. [00:44:09] Jesse Schwamb: Either you can take a sure loss of a thousand dollars, or you can take a gamble. And you can take a, we'll flip a coin and if it comes up heads, you'll lose $2,000. But if it comes up tails, you will lose zero. So again, here are the two options, but now we're talking about losses. You either have to take a loss of a thousand dollars for certain, or you could take the gamble, flip a fail fair coin, and you could lose $2,000 or you might lose nothing if it comes up tails. [00:44:42] Jesse Schwamb: Now what would you do? Now if you're like most people, what these researchers found is people gravitated toward taking the risk. That is, they chose the option when they said, let me flip the coin, because at least if I flip the coin, there's a chance I might not lose anything. I know I might lose $2,000, but I would rather take the risk of losing 2000, but have the opportunity to lose nothing than take the sure loss of a thousand dollars. [00:45:05] Jesse Schwamb: So here's what's crazy about all this. Here's what it teaches us, is we make the wrong choices all the time. You know, technically speaking, when it comes to gains, we should prefer the risk, the risk of zero, because you started out with zero, so you're not better. You're not worse off by having zero, and if you win, you get $2,000. [00:45:22] Jesse Schwamb: But when it comes to the loss, we should take the sure loss of a thousand dollars because we might end up having a loss of $2,000. We tend to behave poorly given the situations. This is an example of loss aversion and risk aversion, and Jesus knows this. That's the brilliance of it, of course, because he says, I know that your hearts will be troubled by losing your treasure. [00:45:45] Jesse Schwamb: So here's the thing. It's not the treasure that's bad, it's that you're putting your faith, you're going after the wrong thing. So loved ones. When we find ourselves rooted in Christ, when we find our identity right there in him, when we are sure that all that we have is in the heavenly realms and therefore everything else can float and fl away, then we find ourselves able to be the kind of people in our workplaces where we're calm, poised in the face of difficulty failure, or all kinds of challenges. [00:46:14] Jesse Schwamb: One more thing I would encourage you with, and that is just be known as authentic and integrated. This goes back to something Tony and I have really challenged ourselves with so much, and that is some Christians aren't very open about their faith at work and others talk about it all the time, but act and speak in ways that marginalize nonbelievers. [00:46:30] Jesse Schwamb: We should, of course, be really wise about how we share the reason for the hope that we're, we have when we're at work. But staying silent isn't an option. If we wanna be authentic people, we have to bring our whole selves to work. I think this is where we all, at times could use a little work. I, I've barely been encouraged by brothers and sisters who are far better at this than I, where. [00:46:50] Jesse Schwamb: They're really good at explaining why they do something, and perhaps they've been building a relationship with non-believers, serving them, working with them. And, but when the right opportunity approaches when the moment arrives, they're right there with their explanation. They're quick to say, it's because Jesus loves me. [00:47:06] Jesse Schwamb: They're quick to talk about the transforming power of the gospel. And it's not in a way that's overbearing. It's not in a way that seems disingenuous or somehow like they're, they're shoehorning in some kind of, you know, bully pulpit testimony. Instead, it's a natural expression. Because they were ready and willing and brave. [00:47:22] Jesse Schwamb: To do that. So we've got to be known as authentic and integrated, and that integration is just as important as the authenticity. What, what is the good, what is the point of doing many of these good works if there is not a commensurate explanation or expression of why we are doing them, because. Plenty of people who are non-believers also do good work. [00:47:42] Jesse Schwamb: This is part of the common grace that God has given to all of our world and to the entire universe writ large. So in that being said, sometimes we just need to say, this is why I'm doing it. And it's possible that probably people are sometimes thinking, I have no idea why this person is doing this, but I'm not gonna ask them. [00:47:57] Jesse Schwamb: 'cause that's super weird. So by us stepping forward and saying, listen, I love you, God is good to me, uh, there there's a God over the universe who saved me. I was in this pit of despair and he's taken me out of that pit. My work, the things I do, I do now for him. I do it not just because I wanna provide for my family, but because I love God. [00:48:16] Jesse Schwamb: I want to be obedient in worshiping him, and part of how I worship him is doing my work this particular way. That's why you see me. Work like this. What a beautiful thing. Loved ones. [00:48:25] Final Thoughts and Encouragement [00:48:25] Jesse Schwamb: So there's so much I think for us to think about here. I could go on and on, and at this point, this is no longer a short episode. [00:48:32] Jesse Schwamb: You've gotten almost 50 minutes of me just talking. So I want to thank some people for good works right now. And that is. For those of you who have joined in the Telegram chat and are hanging out. Thank you. I really appreciate that. And there's so much good conversation going on there. Again, I gotta plug it. [00:48:48] Jesse Schwamb: If you haven't, if you're not in there, you're really missing out on this experience. It's not just hearing Tony and I talk. It's coming alongside and being integrated with all kinds of other brothers and sisters. So do yourself and us a favor and go to T Me Rhyme, see t me slash reform brotherhood and come hang out with us in addition. [00:49:10] Jesse Schwamb: I'm so grateful for all those who contribute to the podcast financially to make sure that just keeps going. If you've ever wondered like, how is this all free, and there's a website where I can go surf the back catalog@reformbrotherhood.com and it just shows up in my podcast feed, and it doesn't sound like they're in a tin can somewhere or in a hurricane recording this. [00:49:28] Jesse Schwamb: How does all of that happened? It happens because there's so many lovely brothers and sisters who's come alongside and said. Yeah, you know what? After all my responsibilities, I have a little bit left over and I wanna make sure that this thing just continues to keep going. And so I say to you, thank you so much. [00:49:43] Jesse Schwamb: If you would like to be a part of that and I challenge you, come join us in giving toward the podcast, Tony and I do. And there's somebody I love, our brothers and sisters who do as well. That's what makes this happen. You can go to patreon.com, reformed brotherhood, so we've got all kinds of good stuff coming up. [00:49:59] Jesse Schwamb: I love the fall season, autumn in the Western hemisphere here, because it feels like a reset in many ways. Like the kids go back to school, the weather changes depending on where you are, the

In this thought-provoking episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse explore the complex relationship between Christian vocation and professional ambition. Moving beyond the obvious prohibition of inherently sinful professions, they examine whether certain legitimate careers might still be inappropriate for Christians if they compromise our responsibilities to family and church. The hosts challenge the common assumption that Christians should seek maximum worldly influence, suggesting instead that faithfulness in our threefold calling—to work, family, and church—should guide our vocational choices. Drawing on Reformed theology's rich understanding of vocation, they offer practical wisdom for believers navigating career decisions and workplace responsibilities while maintaining spiritual priorities in a culture that often glorifies professional success at any cost. Key Takeaways Vocation is threefold: A proper understanding of Christian vocation includes responsibilities to our work, our families, and our church—not just our careers. Lord's Day conflicts: Professions that regularly prevent church attendance and Lord's Day observance may be inappropriate for Christians, regardless of their potential for influence or impact. Family obligations: Scripture teaches that Christians who neglect family responsibilities are "worse than unbelievers" (1 Tim. 5:8), suggesting that careers demanding excessive time away from family may be problematic. Christian influence vs. gospel proclamation: We must distinguish between transforming culture through worldly influence versus the actual proclamation of the gospel, which can happen at any level of employment. Sacrifice is expected: Following Christ often requires sacrificing career advancement, prestige, or financial gain to fulfill our primary callings. Priority check: When considering job opportunities, Christians should evaluate church options in a new location with the same care they give to schools, housing, and other community factors. God calls us to faithfulness: Our primary calling is to faithfulness in our responsibilities, not necessarily to positions of maximum influence or cultural power. Balancing the Threefold Calling The hosts challenge the idea that Christians should prioritize career advancement and influence above all else. They argue that vocation in the Reformed tradition encompasses more than just our paid work—it includes our responsibilities to family and church as well. This means that even if a career opportunity seems beneficial for "kingdom influence," we must evaluate whether it allows us to fulfill our other God-given duties. Tony points out that while some professions clearly contradict Christian ethics, others may subtly undermine our ability to be faithful in all areas of life. A high-powered executive role might provide platforms for influence but could require such time commitments that family relationships suffer or regular Lord's Day worship becomes impossible. As Jesse observes, "vocation is fundamentally God's doing," not simply about finding personal fulfillment or maximizing impact. This framework helps believers evaluate career choices more holistically. The Question of Christian Influence A central question emerges throughout the episode: Should Christians pursue positions of maximum influence to advance kingdom values? While this idea sounds appealing, the hosts suggest it often masks a "theology of glory" rather than embracing the "theology of the cross." Jesse notes that "God doesn't call us to necessarily have outside impact. What he's calling us to is faithfulness." They distinguish between the transformative power of the gospel—which can be proclaimed regardless of position—and other ways of transforming culture through worldly influence. Tony explains that "whether you're the janitor of the hospital or whether you're the CEO of the hospital, the gospel is the same and your role in proclaiming the gospel is the same." This perspective challenges Christians to reconsider whether pursuing leadership positions always aligns with God's calling, especially when such roles might compromise other spiritual obligations. The hosts argue that faithfulness in ordinary circumstances, not exceptional influence, should be our primary aim. Quotes "Would it be great if the CEO of a major Fortune 500 company could be a Christian? Yeah. That would be kind of cool. But if the trade-off is that person has to sacrifice their genuine Christian convictions, that's not worth it." - Tony Arsenal "I do think we have to sit back and ask, is that the calling? So that we're pursuing what is our vocation, not just our potential... I think there is a real temptation to somehow say like, what we need to do is to infiltrate in all the places. And I think what we mean by that is that things here will be better." - Jesse Schwamb "I think the Bible is clearer about a person who is taken away from their home more than is reasonable and more than is healthy for their family, or a Christian who never is able to worship on the Lord's day... than it is on something like identity politics and some of the tangential ways that might cause a person to need to compromise a little bit at a high level." - Tony Arsenal Practical Applications The hosts suggest several practical considerations for Christians evaluating career opportunities: Will this job regularly prevent Lord's Day worship? Does it require sacrificing time with family beyond what's reasonable? Could you negotiate Sabbath observance with potential employers? When relocating, evaluate church options with the same care given to schools and housing Consider whether a lower-paying job that allows faithfulness in all areas might be better than a higher-paying one that doesn't Full Transcript [00:00:00] Introduction and Episode Overview [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 458 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:16] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast where even your work is unto the glory of God. Hey brother. Hey [00:00:24] Jesse Schwamb: brother. You know that's right. It [00:00:26] Tony Arsenal: is. That's why I said it. [00:00:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it was. That's a great way to open. We, I think from time to time come back to the topic of work and we've got a great, I think, conversation in the queue for this particular episode. [00:00:39] Jesse Schwamb: Now it's gonna sound maybe on the face. Right off the top here. Familiar. So of course, like we've talked before, how scripture makes it clear that Christians are to be salt and light in the world. And we've talked, I think, at length about, well, how exactly do we carry out that? And though we know that we're not saved by our good works. [00:00:57] Jesse Schwamb: Again, the Bible teaches very clearly that God expects good works from Christians, that that is in fact what he saves us to do. Again, we're not saved by those good works, but the question I think still remains, and we're gonna come to it in this conversation about what exactly does he want us to do and where does he want us to do it. [00:01:13] Jesse Schwamb: So in other words, we know that according to scripture, God providentially, governs and cares for his entire creation. So how does that play out in human society given the reality of sin? So we're gonna get to topics like. Well, should Christians be in every line of work? Is that the ideal? Are there jobs or positions or responsibilities that seemingly may not be obvious that Christians really shouldn't be a part of? [00:01:37] Jesse Schwamb: Because it takes them too far afield, maybe from the responsibilities that God gives us holistically to think of our calling is and our families and our churches in our work. So it's a bit more nuanced play of a conversation we had before, but hopefully something that's gonna have all kinds of practicality wrapped around it. [00:01:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. So that's what's coming. [00:01:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I'm stoked. I think this is gonna be a good conversation and I think I, I think this is one of those topics where like there's a lot of different angles to come at it from, right? We talk about vocation and work, and we've had those conversations before, and I think other shows and other venues have had that conversation before. [00:02:15] Tony Arsenal: I don't think that I've encountered a conversation really to this like angle of it. So I'm looking forward to this. [00:02:23] Jesse Schwamb: Me too. It's gonna be great. And of course, before we get to all that goodness, all that greatness, which I'm sure is about to transpire shortly and will be of course the definitive conversation, the one to end all to, I guess both to your point, bring it into the world. [00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Then to shut it down because we'll have accomplished both ends in just a single hour. [00:02:41] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:41] Jesse Schwamb: Before we get to that, let's do some affirming or denying. This is the part of our conversation where you and I always pick one thing either that we're affirming with and kind of the tradition of the reformed faith, where we take something that's undervalued or something that excites us, we think has great merit or worth, and we put out into the world and say, we're standing behind this thing, or conversely, we deny against it in that same kind of tradition by saying, this thing is overvalued, not worth it. [00:03:05] Jesse Schwamb: Not our jam. So in our tradition, I ask you are you affirming with something or are you not against something? [00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming with something specific that will lead to something general. So, okay. [00:03:16] Exploring AI in Learning [00:03:16] Tony Arsenal: I mentioned a couple weeks ago that I've been playing around with Google Gemini, which is Google's AI platform. [00:03:22] Tony Arsenal: And uh, I've been using it in a sort of interesting way. So Google has, uh, Gemini has these things called gems, which are basically like predefined personalities or predefined. I dunno, like instructions. So they have one gem that is a learning guide where basically you can give it a topic and it will, it will deliver mini lectures, give you quizzes, you can prompt it. [00:03:46] Tony Arsenal: So like I can paste in, um, you know, I can take in Lagos, I can paste a copy of the Bible, like a chapter of the Bible into the learning guide. It'll summarize it, it'll ask me questions. It'll basically gimme many lectures on it. Um, that's the specific thing. This is such a cool technology. And in my mind, this is really where AI is strong, is that you can take large sections of text and it will summarize it and synthesize it into a very usable format. [00:04:14] Tony Arsenal: Um, so what I've been doing, like I said, is I'll read, I'll read a, a chunk of text from whatever it is I'm reading, and then I'll copy and paste that entire chunk of text if it's an electronic text into the learning. Learning guide module and ask it to act as like a seminary lecturer and quiz me on the content. [00:04:33] Tony Arsenal: Um, which really helps to solidify the content I'm reading rather than just passing my eyes over it. I'm actually, um, processing it and retaining it more. I think you could probably do something similar with just about any AI platform if you had the right kind of prompt, which is where the general one comes in. [00:04:50] Tony Arsenal: And I would encourage you, listener to think a little bit about how you might utilize this, because I think we all read lots and lots of things. Our, our, um, particular audience tends to be a little bookish, and so I'm sure we're all reading things as we go, but I'm not sure we're always processing things in the most effective way. [00:05:07] Tony Arsenal: So think a little bit about like how you might use something like chat, GPT, which is available for free, or Claude, which is available for free to do this kind of like. Almost like simulated classroom lecture. Um, and I know there are some questions about ai. Like I, I heard an argument that ai, when you're generating content is, is a sort of form of sophisticated, uh, plagiarism, which I'm not sure I buy it, but I understand the argument. [00:05:33] Tony Arsenal: This is something very different where you're really just using the, using the AI to synthesize and summarize text and sort of spit it back to you in a new format. Um, you're not trying to generate anything new. You're not trying to create anything. That you're gonna publish or anything like that. It's really just a, a form of synthesis. [00:05:49] Tony Arsenal: So I've really found this to be super beneficial. Um, I'm having a really great time at it. I'm, I'm using it for language studies, so I'm reading through mount's basics, biblical Greek. And I'll copy and paste the whole chapter in, ask it to act as a lecturer, and it will walk me through the chapter. It'll stop to do quizzes. [00:06:08] Tony Arsenal: It'll drill me on vocab as I'm going. And then when, when I up, the instruction I get is, don't move forward until you are convinced that I've mastered the content. And so when I get something wrong, it goes back and makes me redo it. So it continues to iterate until it's, until the AI has. Synthesize that I have mastered the content, and then it asks me to provide the next chapter. [00:06:30] Tony Arsenal: So it's a cool technology. It's a, it's a sort of novel use for the technology. Um, again, Google has built in modules that do this, but I think you could probably use chat, GPT or Claude or Orrock or whatever AI model you're using to accomplish the same goal. [00:06:45] Jesse Schwamb: There's no doubt that AI is great for like building study notes, helping you create space, repetition, all those like little hacks that we have long talked about. [00:06:53] Jesse Schwamb: And this provides it to you in a really bespoke course customized way, but it gets you involved. I'm with you if you wanna do this the old fashioned way. I'll go back to something I I've affirmed with before and that's this very famous book originally authored in the 1940s called How to Read a Book by Mor Mortimer, j Adler, and that is an exercise. [00:07:13] Jesse Schwamb: Helping you do some of that stuff in real time as well. Yeah, so I think there'd be a lovely compliment to say you're reading actively and then you get to test immediately that active reading by way of using ai. So even before, like, maybe even just jumping to like, well, let me read it, but I'm, I'm gonna trust that AI's gonna really kind of supplement me or fill in the gaps and just gimme what I need to know. [00:07:33] Jesse Schwamb: Trying to do that in real time. Pausing in your reading. Again, kind of studying as you go along, thinking out loud through what you've just read and then saying, alright, now test me is a great way to, 'cause who wants to like read stuff unless you can remember this stuff and then unless you can apply it, right? [00:07:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. So it's such a joy to be able to read things and then to remember. And if you haven't had that experience yet, I like your affirmation. I think this is a great way to test it out. [00:07:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, just to maybe flesh this out. So I, I asked it to, and I'm, I'm doing this sort of as an experiment just to see how it works, but also just 'cause it's, it's useful. [00:08:06] Tony Arsenal: I asked it to act as a seminary lecturer and I copied and paste the entire first chapter of the Westminster Confession. And rather than split it up by section and actually combined paragraphs that were. Um, related to each other. So it combined the list of Bible, uh, books, and then the chapter on apocrypha and gave me some like lectures. [00:08:25] Tony Arsenal: But here's what it said about, um, about chapter 10. It says, paragraph 10, declares the supreme judge can be no other than the Holy Spirit speaking scripture. This is the ultimate outworking of sola Scripture, means that every other authority is lesser authority that must submit to the judgment of the word of God. [00:08:42] Tony Arsenal: This includes decrees of church counsels. Opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, private spirits. It goes on for a little while longer. Then it says, I will give you a brief final quiz covering the whole of chapter one, and it asks questions like A historian makes the following claim. The Bible only has authority. [00:08:59] Tony Arsenal: It does because influential councils in the early church, like the Council of Carthage officially voted on which books would be included in the cannon. The church therefore gave the Bible its authority drawing from your knowledge of paragraphs three, uh, three, four, and five. Provide a two-part critique of the historian statement. [00:09:16] Tony Arsenal: Which then I had to type it out. It critiqued, um, it analyzed my answer. Um, I happened to get that question right. I did at one point think maybe this is actually just like finding a way to say everything that I say is right. So I purposely put a wrong answer in and it did identify that the answer was wrong, and then it made me go back and revisit that content. [00:09:35] Tony Arsenal: So it's very, it's a very cool use case. I'm glad that Google kind of built this in. They have all sorts of other gems. If you have, if you have a way to get access to Google Gemini, um. It's not the best AI for everything, but it's got, it's pretty versatile. It's got a lot of utility, so check it out. [00:09:53] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that sounds great. [00:09:53] Jesse Schwamb: Again, there's all kinds of fun things I think we could be using AI for to help us be better learners or to really enjoy our interaction with data and information more. Yeah. It is a really great way to conversationally help you to learn something, and that's what makes it so much better. It stands way far apart from, again, just leading, just reading or just creating flashcards or even just, just creating study notes, but that back and forth to test you on something, even if it's just like casual knowledge that you can really want to internalize. [00:10:21] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I found that to be super valuable. Again, like, man, if you're a learner, if you're a reader, if you're a human being, what an amazing time to live in the world where data is so prevalent, but it's increasingly being brought into a place where we can put our arms around it in a way in which we're trying to really understand it. [00:10:38] Jesse Schwamb: You know, I think about how we used to search for something, I mean. Used to like this that like, that wasn't like last year. You know what I mean? Like we just go on to our, your favorite search engine. Type in a topic or maybe type in even a specific question. And at best you'd have to sort through this litany, this plethora, this morass of all these links about articles that may pertain to what you asked. [00:10:58] Jesse Schwamb: Or maybe they pertain to it generally, but not really specifically. Yeah. The specificity with which you can have a conversational interaction that engenders knowledge is wild. I mean, I really think that is like the huge play of ai. Just lean into it and enjoy it. [00:11:12] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight? [00:11:16] Nasal Spray Affirmation [00:11:16] Jesse Schwamb: I'm going a totally different direction. It's an affirmation, but I'm taking it from my ears, nose, nose, and throat doctor who affirmed this to me, so I might be totally late on this. There are very few things that I can say like somebody's recommended to me or affirm. It's been like absolute game changer, like just drop dead from the first moment I used it or employed the thing that it just changed everything. [00:11:38] Jesse Schwamb: This is one of those things. Which maybe I've just already oversold, but the affirmation is with something called it's, it's spelled X-L-E-A-R, I think it's still pronounced clear, but it's called literally phonetically XL nasal spray, and it's a. This doesn't sound very exciting, but bear with me everybody. [00:11:57] Jesse Schwamb: It's a natural, non-addictive saline nasal spray featuring Zi Atol as its primary active ingredient. So if you're not familiar with Zi Atol, which I wasn't until I went to my ENT by the way I've seen for many years and only just recommended this to me. So I had some words 'cause I was working, where's this been all my life. [00:12:14] Jesse Schwamb: But Zito is a naturally occurring alcohol sugar. It's found in like many fruits and vegetables, and it can be commercially produced from like birch wine or corn fiber. It looks and tastes similar to like table sugar, but it contains fewer calories, so it can be used and is often used as like a sweetener in sugar-free foods like chewing gum, mint candies, jam, stuff like that. [00:12:35] Jesse Schwamb: Here's one of the strange side effects. That they notice though about Zi atol, and that is it totally, uh, cleanses, moisturizes and soos nasal passages. And it gives you all kinds of relief from like common congestion stuff like colds, allergies, low humidity, humidity, science, pressure, stuff like that. What it does is it actually breaks down or lubricates your inner nasal passages, including like flushing out the mucus. like it works actually with your body. So what's amazing is it's, it's really great for, it's kinda like a soap for the nose. It clears up bacteria, pollens, dander, molds, like all kinds of irritants. [00:13:14] Jesse Schwamb: It also studies have shown blocks, adhesion of other pathogens like bacterial, fungal, viral to the mucosal tissues, helping the body to wash them away. So [00:13:23] Jesse Schwamb: this thing is absolutely. Wild. And I can say for certain that if you're the kind of person like me, where let's say like you're, you're hitting the Flonase hard at different seasons because you got those seasonal allergies because of the fall and because sin is real. I'm with you. That dries out your nose. [00:13:42] Jesse Schwamb: This thing is like a, a sauna or a spa for your nose, and then it literally like clears everything out. It's almost magical. I, I'm serious. It's so fantastic. So if you've been looking for something to really help with that and it, again, it's safe. There's no drug in it. It's not addictive, so you can use it all the time. [00:13:58] Jesse Schwamb: It's just saline and zi etol. It is phenomenal. So go get yourself, do yourself a favor. Do, do your, do your nose and your sinuses a solid and, and get the solids outta them by using. X clear. I feel like a bat just flew by your face or like a giant bird. [00:14:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So, uh, first of all, that sounds like a really great thing to check out. [00:14:22] Tony Arsenal: Is this clear stuff? Um, I have had struggles with like sinus infections over the last couple years, so I'm gonna check this out when it gets to allergy season in the fall year. [00:14:32] Hummingbird Moth Encounter [00:14:32] Tony Arsenal: But yes, uh, one of the rare, uh, moths that I've learned lives near my house is called a, uh, what's it called? Uh. It commonly, it's called like a hummingbird moth. [00:14:44] Tony Arsenal: Have you heard of these things? Yeah. Oh yeah. Um, I've never seen them before, but the reason they're called hummingbird moths is 'cause they look like hummingbirds, but they're actually moths and I right now. Hopefully this will change eventually, but. It will have to, 'cause it gets cold here. Um, I'm recording outside and a hummingbird moth literally just flew between my computer and my face. [00:15:05] Tony Arsenal: Um, I wasn't talking at the time so you wouldn't be able to see it on the screen, which is too bad. Uh, but yeah, Jesse saw me freak out a little bit, which is uh, which is fine. [00:15:16] Jesse Schwamb: It happened the [00:15:16] Tony Arsenal: first time I saw one. I was like, is that a huge bee? No, it's just a hummingbird broth. [00:15:21] Jesse Schwamb: Somebody, everybody should look them up though, because they're kind of wild looking. [00:15:25] Jesse Schwamb: Like if you've seen it in real life, they have that hummingbird pose where the body, body is kind of laid back and the wings are going crazy. Like they literally do hover like that. Yeah. And they're, they're almost that big. The one that tried to attack you there was pretty large. [00:15:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. They don't, um, they, they. [00:15:41] Tony Arsenal: Move a little different than hummingbirds, which is why the first time that I saw one, I thought it was a bee. Um, because when they, when they land on a flower, they crawl inside the flower the same way that a, like a bee or a bumblebee will, um, they don't hover outside the flower like a hummingbird, but they do. [00:15:57] Tony Arsenal: They, their body is, I mean, their body is probably an, an inch and a half long like a hummingbird. Um, and it's thick like a hummingbird. They don't look like moths at all. So I'm not sure they must be part of the Moth family, I guess. Um, I'm trying to remember. It's. They have like a specific name, I wanna say Scarab, but that's not right. [00:16:14] Tony Arsenal: But it's something like that is the, the technical name of it. They're like a scarab moth or something like that. But [00:16:20] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, I've just come up. It's a wild name. [00:16:22] Tony Arsenal: This is your top 50 Entomology, uh, podcast apparently. As well as the top 50 health cath. We're gonna, we're gonna uh, com combine the two tonight, so yeah, I'm gonna check that out in the, the spring or in the fall here, Jesse. [00:16:34] Tony Arsenal: My, my allergies always go a little bit crazy when we get to September. Yeah. With all the, like leaves falling down and crumbling up and stuff, it just gets in the air, so I'll just, I'll spray some artificial sugar. It's not artificial. I'll spray some pseudo sugar in my nose and see what happens. [00:16:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It does have the added benefit that because it is a naturally occurring. [00:16:53] Jesse Schwamb: Sugar, like it's a type of sugar alcohol that if it drips down the back of your throat, all you get is a little like, mm, sweet. [00:17:03] Tony Arsenal: I wanna know who the first guy who was like, let me put some of this fake sugar in my nose and see what happens was it's, [00:17:09] Jesse Schwamb: I'm telling you, it, it's better than any actual, like, prescribed nasal spray I've ever taken. [00:17:15] Jesse Schwamb: You can get it like just at your g it. Yeah. Or you can get it on Amazon. I, I will, I forgot about it for a while. I, maybe I use it daily now it's become my go-to. But I mean, I don't wanna make this weird or gross, but it's the kind of thing like if you wake up in the morning and you're stuffy and you, it feels like somebody parked like a bus way up in your sinus cavity. [00:17:32] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And you're like, I can't even blow my nose. There's nothing there where, where's all this stuff? There's nothing there. If you use this, when I use this within two, two, I'd say like seven minutes, I can just. Drop a huge load of mucus right outta my face and you feel like a million bucks. I don't know how to describe it. [00:17:49] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's like better than like a sinus rinse or a netty pot. I know this sounds wild, like I'm way too excited about this stuff, but that clear spray is wild. And what I especially love is that it's all natural, that I'm not doing any harm to my nose or my face by using it. And that it, I just feel better afterwards because it's like moisturized everything. [00:18:08] Jesse Schwamb: So, and there's, there's, the debate is I think ongoing. There's a lot apparently, because I went down the rabbit trail and looked at all these scholarly studies and peer-reviewed journal papers, all this stuff. There's a lot, I guess, uh, still somewhat in debate about like its ability to really help prevent certain things like COVID, any kind of like nasal airborne kind of like, yeah, because it helps to flush and it prevents literally bacteria from sticking, uh, inside your nasal passages. [00:18:34] Jesse Schwamb: So that could be a benefit. I can't say anything about that. I'm not a doctor. What, [00:18:40] Tony Arsenal: what I would love is, uh, if you are a listener who has seasonal allergies or whatever, uh, if you would join our telegram chat at t.me/reform brotherhood. Well done. We have what's normally a tastings channel, which is like people get like new foods they wanna check out, or a beer they like or whatever, and they'll, uh, they'll do a little tasting and a review. [00:19:04] Tony Arsenal: I would love if some people would join the channel and do some, some clear, clear. We'll go clear, uh, a tasting of this nasal spray. Yeah, please don't show us. 'cause that's disgusting. Right. But, uh, let us know. Let us know what you think of it. I think that'd be great. So that's t me slash Reform Brotherhood. [00:19:21] Jesse Schwamb: There you go. Come hang out with us. It's a lot of fun. I see we've had some people join that group this week, so I see you out there, brother Sean. Crushing it, getting in the mix. Welcome everybody. Come again. Spend a little time in there. And there's, I love that the channel for like the conversation about our episodes is. [00:19:37] Jesse Schwamb: Hot. It's going strong. I love that. And we gave the call last week. You should listen to last week's episode when we were really speaking about, uh, God's faithfulness and a challenge of how we seek after piety, under the care and the direction, the kind direction and the convicting influence of the Holy Spirit. [00:19:55] Jesse Schwamb: So many good things were said there. I really loved reading all those. And it probably goes without saying, but I'm gonna mention it anyway. You and I read everything that pops in there. Yeah. For the most part. I mean, sometimes I look at it and there's 150 messages, right? And um, it got wild. But I go back through and always, always read those. [00:20:10] Jesse Schwamb: But I especially love like the conversation when we invite people to say, like, now it's, we'd love to hear from you. And so I think that's gonna be a large part of what we talk about. On this episode as well. [00:20:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. So, Jesse, why don't you lead us in here. This was the topic you brought up. I think it's a great one. [00:20:25] Tony Arsenal: I'd love to to dive into it here. [00:20:27] Christian Vocation and Work [00:20:27] Jesse Schwamb: I think one of the things that Christians always have to come to terms with at some point, every generation has to, but every person as well is, so where is my role as Christ child in something we might generally call like Christian activism? By which I mean like, of course, like Christians. [00:20:44] Jesse Schwamb: Attempt to improve or influence society through time, especially in our work. And as I was thinking about this recently, I think one of the hard things we have to measure out is well. Are there different places where we would, there's certainly jobs where we say Christians shouldn't hold that position because it contravenes God's law directly. [00:21:05] Jesse Schwamb: But what about these kind of, as we've talked about before, this threefold responsibility that we have in our callings, which you can go back to our previous catalog, which is all in the reform brotherhood.com, by the way. Listen to where we talked about this idea of like the vocation that happens in our work, in our households, in our church, and is it possible that in the work sphere that there are jobs that like Christians just shouldn't hold because it takes them too far away from their responsibilities in the other two spheres, which there are equally parts of their vocation, or if we want to put like a really fine point in it, and I don't really mean to derail the conversation with this question, but this would be exemplifying kind of what we're after here, which was like, should Christians be involved and. [00:21:47] Jesse Schwamb: In politics, are there other jobs like that where we'd say, listen, we, we tr we trust God in his sovereign superintendent will that he's always doing his good work. And you and I have talked at length about what it means to be living in the, under the normal principle of God using ordinary, normal means to do great and extraordinary things. [00:22:06] Jesse Schwamb: So how does all of that fit with our work? Are there lines to be drawn or. Does it not really matter? [00:22:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I think for the sake of our conversation, we can just sort of take some professions off the table. Right? Of course, there are some professions of course, and calling them professions is probably even, probably even a misnomer. [00:22:27] Tony Arsenal: But there are some ways to earn money that are just intrinsically sinful that are outside of the scope of the conversation, right? You can't, uh, there's no argument for a Christian to become like. An assassin or like a drug dealer or a prostitute, like, there's no, there's no valid argument or discussion to be had around those. [00:22:45] Tony Arsenal: So we can just exclude those entirely. But I think for, for the sake of this conversation, we're talking about professions that do not involve, intrinsically involve sin, um, and, and may or may not have, um. Prudential reasons why they are not the best idea. Right. So I, I'm thinking like, the one that came to mind when you asked this was like, and it's funny because I, um, I mentioned the topic to my wife and, you know, she kind of joked, I was like, well, yeah, like Christians can't be. [00:23:15] Tony Arsenal: Can't like be porn stars, like that's not something you can do as a Christian. But then, then I, she said, well, what, what other professions would it be? I said, well, like, like a professional football player, right? And like the question is like, can a Christian be a professional football player? I think instinctively, right? [00:23:29] Tony Arsenal: We all say yes. But, but is that actually true? Right. And, and I would, I would make the argument that no, like a Christian can't be a professional football player or really, really any kind of professional sports, um, figure because it, it necessarily takes you away from the gathered fellowship of Christians on the Lord's day on far too often a basis. [00:23:47] Tony Arsenal: Right? I don't think you can make a good prudential argument to say like, well. It's fine for a Christian to be absent from the lord's uh, Lord's Day worship in his congregation of membership, you know, 60% of the time. Like, I just don't think you can make that argument. So I think in a lot of these cases, the immediate instinctive answer is yes. [00:24:07] Tony Arsenal: Uh. Christians can be part of any profession, and there's a certain, there's a certain way that that's true, but when we actually start to look at the way some professions actually play out, we have to analyze that a lot deeper. And this is actually not all that different than our conversation last week. [00:24:23] Tony Arsenal: Right. Involving like a. Pop culture and like media consumption is we have to look at what is actually, what the actual cost is. Uh, opportunity cost, I guess if we want to use like economic terms, what the actual opportunity cost is here of a particular profession in respect of. Our obligations and our commitments as a Christian and our obligation to the law of God, our obligation to our Christian brothers and sisters, all of that. [00:24:49] Tony Arsenal: So I think this is gonna be a great conversation. I'm excited to get into it. Um, but I do think it's one that we should think through a little bit more than just sort of like our gut reaction. Like we, of course, Christians can be involved in any profession. [00:25:00] Jesse Schwamb: Let me add to that. 'cause that's perfect. That's exactly, you're not on the same page as usual. [00:25:04] Jesse Schwamb: That's exactly where my mind was going. And what makes like this such a rich opportunity to really explore what the scripture has to say about this particular topic? I think you're right on that we need to weigh out, which we often just kind of glance over. What are the other responsibilities by taking on a particular line of work or job. [00:25:20] Jesse Schwamb: Does that necessarily mean that we must sacrifice and preclude these other areas? We should have direct or more intimate involvement because that is also part of vocation. Part of that, like we've talked about at length before, is responsibility in the Lord's day. So we might set that up as one particular test. [00:25:36] Jesse Schwamb: To that end, another one might be exactly what you were saying. So here's like the opposite of like the professional footballer or American football or whatever. Pick your, pick your sports. What about like high level? High responsibility, let's say leadership positions like in all kinds of areas of industry that would require the man or the woman to, let's say, like be on call continually, or maybe to sacrifice long hours at that job as part and parcel of what's required to do it effectively. [00:26:04] Jesse Schwamb: And that might mean that necessarily like not being very connected with family or having to be away from their family a lot of the time. I think what we often come to is this idea that, wouldn't it be great if Christians were just everywhere and were infiltrating all the things all the time at all the levels. [00:26:21] Jesse Schwamb: I think the question here that's under the surface is, is that what God assigns in a life of vocation? And maybe it's, it's of course more nuance than that and it could be for the person. Again, I wanna be clear that, like we said before, vocation is a very specific and narrow term in that we're talking about an actual calling being called out for a particular purpose. [00:26:42] Jesse Schwamb: And if we're using that in the right way, then it's possible that with the exception of some things like the Lord's Day, the other thing I just talked about, season of life. And your particular commitments or entanglements, they might be different from person to person. Therefore, allow for a direct call that God gives to a particular purpose at a particular time. [00:27:01] Jesse Schwamb: I think what I'm really kind of weighing out here is if we understand how the reformers viewed all of this. We have to come to this conclusion that God assigns us a life and then God calls us to that life. And that really is what vocation is all about. And notice in that there's nothing that's said about choosing a vocation or finding your true vocation or being fulfilled even in your vocation. [00:27:24] Jesse Schwamb: We may experience a struggle with all of that, but vocation is fundamentally God's doing. So what is. God doing in our society. And as you said, are there roles that he's, in a way not calling, let's say like the, the quintessential or the normative, I don't wanna say average 'cause that implies the weird thing, but Right. [00:27:44] Jesse Schwamb: Kind of Christian too. And I think. We've gotta, we've gotta wrestle with that because you're right. Like we too often just run to, we need Christians in all the places now let's get them everywhere. Doing all the things. Yeah. And that might be good from our perspective, because Christians should be the best workers as we said that we should. [00:28:01] Jesse Schwamb: The most kind. There is the salt in lights everywhere. However, it takes a Christian to do all those things. And can a Christian in certain roles have great fidelity to the threefold? [00:28:13] Exploring the Theology of Work and the Lord's Day [00:28:13] Jesse Schwamb: Calling and vocation of life while upholding certain jobs and responsibilities. [00:28:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, um, I think that may be like a little bit of progam is, is warranted here too. [00:28:26] Tony Arsenal: Like there, you know, there's the, the, the conversation at the top of like, some, some professions are just out of bounds. Yeah. Um, but there's also, you know, a pretty robust theology. And I think a lot of this is gonna center around. Uh, maybe just for simplicity's sake and for the fact that we have 30 minutes left of a conversation that probably could be multiple hours, um, there's a pretty robust apparatus in reform theology that is designed to help Christians understand whether or not, um. [00:28:57] Tony Arsenal: A particular activity is acceptable on the Lord's day. And we've, we've had conversations in the past about like, if, if all of your theology of the Lord's Day is about what you can and can't do, then you're missing the point entirely. [00:29:11] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. [00:29:11] Tony Arsenal: But there is an element of what you can and can't do in terms of understanding the Lord's day. [00:29:16] Tony Arsenal: Right. We're, we're not supposed to engage in worldly recreation or employment on the Lord's day. So we have to talk about what that means. And so I think. [00:29:24] Works of Necessity and Charity on the Lord's Day [00:29:24] Tony Arsenal: I think to start with, like there's categories, like works of necessity, works of charity, um, that, or, or like works of ministry, which would, would sort of be a third category that's not necessarily, um, not necessarily enumerated in many of the sources, but it's assumed that like pastors who are working on the Lord's day are not, they're not violating the Sabbath by doing the work on the Sabbath. [00:29:47] Tony Arsenal: Um, I think we have to have those categories. 'cause I think that helps us inform too, like. If you are the CEO of a major retailer, does that mean you have to work on Sunday, right? Well, probably it does. Like, it probably means that on a regular basis you're gonna be checking emails on your phone, you're gonna be taking phone calls. [00:30:05] Tony Arsenal: You've got, you might have partners in markets overseas where it, it's Sunday morning for you, but it's Monday afternoon or you know, Monday morning for them or something like that. Um. I think that the industry you're in largely is going to drive whether that's an acceptable or, or an appropriate role for you. [00:30:24] Tony Arsenal: So I could see a situation where you could make the argument that being the CEO of a of a major medical center, right. Where the work that's being done at the medical center falls easily within that sort of definition of, uh, works of necessity. A nurse who is working in the emergency room or a police officer or a firefighter or somebody who is fixing the power, like in our society, right? [00:30:47] Tony Arsenal: Electricity is, is not an option for most people. It's not a, it's not a luxury for most people. So those, those professions. It's acceptable to work on the Lord's Day when it's a work of necessity, and so the higher level leadership positions that make those possible and constrain them also, I think. Would fall under that same work of necessity. [00:31:06] Tony Arsenal: If the CEO of my hospital, I don't know if she's a Christian or not. I, I'm, I'm not speculating on that, but if, if the CEO of my hospital was a Christian or is a Christian and she has to take an important phone call on Sunday morning and miss the Lord's day because if she doesn't take care of that, the hospital's not gonna function correctly and people may not have emergency services. [00:31:26] Tony Arsenal: I don't think that's a violation of the south principle. If the same scenario is happening and it's the CEO of Best Buy and they need to take a phone call, otherwise people won't be able to buy widgets on Sunday afternoon, that's a different calculation. So I think like right off the bat, we have to start having those conversations about what's the nature of the work, what's the, what's the tell loss of the work or the end aim of the work. [00:31:46] Tony Arsenal: That's really important as well. [00:31:48] Balancing Professional Responsibilities and Christian Obligations [00:31:48] Jesse Schwamb: So it sounds like though what we're saying, both of us in a way, is that if you run that test, so to speak, like you go through that algorithm and you come out with this idea that you know, it's, you're saying your industry is more like Best Buy and less like your local hospital, then there might be significant and maybe insurmountable roadblocks to taking that position Should be as a c. [00:32:08] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I mean, that's kinda what we're saying. [00:32:10] Tony Arsenal: Oh yeah, for sure. And you know, like this is a real world application I think for a lot of people. I remember when I was in college, um, I had the opportunity to take a promotion. I worked at Best Buy. I, I'm not using Best Buy as an example for any specific reason, but I worked at Best Buy. [00:32:23] Tony Arsenal: I worked in the Geek Squad area and I had the opportunity to take a promotion. Um, and the sort of the strings that came with the promotion is that I was expected to be available to work on Sundays. I didn't have a super robust doctrine of the Lord's Day at the time. Like I wasn't super theologically versed on Sabbath theology and stuff. [00:32:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, but it just didn't sit right with me. And so initially I didn't take the, I didn't take the, um, promotion because I didn't feel comfortable saying at the time, it was mostly about like, I'm not gonna miss the church service. I didn't feel comfortable saying I need to be available. And that might mean I Ms. [00:32:57] Tony Arsenal: Church to, to be able to take this shift. Um, eventually the management adapted and said, well, we'll just figure out something else. We really want you to take the position, but that's the kind of question we have to ask. And then that same question, as you move up in an organization, it expands and you're more likely to need to be drawn away from Lord State worship or just general. [00:33:19] Tony Arsenal: Obligations on the Lord's Day. [00:33:20] Personal Experiences and Real-World Applications [00:33:20] Tony Arsenal: And I don't wanna make this entirely about the Lord's Day 'cause there are other obligations that Christians have and it probably will be interesting to get to those. But I think, um, the, the other thing maybe that I wanna push back on a little bit too is I. I, I've never been a CEO. [00:33:34] Tony Arsenal: I probably never will be a CEO. You're far closer to a CEO than I ever will be. But I think a lot of times we assume those positions have no flexibility. Right. But in reality, some of those people are absolutely able to say, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take Sunday, and just not. Yes, I'm not gonna do work on Sunday. [00:33:52] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna delegate that. You know? And then this is a whole other question. I'm gonna delegate that to someone else. Well, there's a whole different question that comes with that, but saying like, I'm just not going to do work on Sunday is actually within the options for a lot of positions. So that's the other question is when we take a position, do we have the option to set aside the Lord's Day? [00:34:11] Tony Arsenal: Even if we might acknowledge that occasionally, that's not gonna work out. There are oftentimes in all of our lives that we're drawn away from being able to fulfill our ordinary obligation of the Lord's Day, and I don't think that that's intrinsically sinful. If on a rare occasion you're not able to attend the Lord's Day worship or something like that. [00:34:29] Tony Arsenal: So I think those are questions we have to ask. Then what? What kind of other Christian obligations do we have? And this is hypothetical, but you're welcome to answer if you've got one in mind. Like what other kinds of Christian obligations do we have that any particular vocation or particular job might make difficult or impossible to fulfill? [00:34:47] Tony Arsenal: I think those are questions we have to ask. [00:34:49] Jesse Schwamb: I'm with you. And that's actually more where my mind goes because again, we've talked before and for some Christians it's easier to identify the stuff that certainly explicitly contravenes the Lord's Day. And I think it's more difficult to say like we, again, I think we talked before about that threefold responsibility and the vocation that is to like work that is like our industry, so to speak, and then to our household, then to our church. [00:35:10] Jesse Schwamb: So the church often does. Again, in a very finely pointed way, connect very tightly with the Lord. Say what about that household stuff? Yeah. So what about these jobs that would just make you too busy? And I think like what's interesting to your point is I agree. Like I think part of this conversation is just a thoughtful assessment of what the job entails, and then even as like maybe you're taking a job or considering a job. [00:35:33] Jesse Schwamb: Having a conversation with your potential employer about what opportunity is there for flexibility given like certain convictions that you have? All of that could fall into place neatly and I think would still be within the bounds of yes, but I think part of this is if it's truly a calling that we, we have to be praying through it and assessing whether God is calling us through that. [00:35:50] Jesse Schwamb: Part of that is passing it through the sin of what the scriptures require in each of those threefold vocational responsibilities. So sometimes I hear there is like a pushback or counter, this argument says, but wouldn't it be better? [00:36:01] The Role of Christians in Leadership Positions [00:36:01] Jesse Schwamb: Wouldn't it be fantastic if you get a Christian as an opportunity to be a CEO? [00:36:05] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't it better for them to be a CEO and to be in that role, even if they're crazy busy, even if they're sacrificing so much for their family, for their household or for the church because they simply, they're gonna be a Christian and think of the role model and the emphasis and the impact they can have. [00:36:19] Jesse Schwamb: And to that, I would say we gotta be really careful with that loved ones because God, I don't think God's calling us to necessarily have outside impact. What he's calling us to is, is faithfulness. Invocation, invocation pulls us back into those three responsibilities, and we know the way in which God prefers to work His jam is these ordinary means, these natural ways of in the normative work of our lives and faithfulness showing that his power is demonstrated in this weakness. [00:36:44] Jesse Schwamb: Somehow we're back to the theology of. Glory and theology of cross. But you know, it's interesting to me that there are no calls like in the entire scriptures, of course, to withdraw into like a private ghetto or to take back the realms of cultural and political activity. And so I think we have to be really careful about even how we kind of pull that into then how. [00:37:03] Jesse Schwamb: Our jobs that like, shouldn't it be my goal as a Christian to get as most influence as possible? And I think I wanna push back on that and say like, you know, the, the church, the Christian exists within the world as a community of word and sacrament. But it doesn't always have to seek influence in larger society. [00:37:19] Jesse Schwamb: It can. It can. And when God provides the opportunity by way of clear calling, I think internal and external that is appropriate. However, often that calling is gonna come at a much more normative level, I think. And, and I do not believe that we are somehow compromising or sub-optimizing the work that God does in the world merely because we might have a Christian that says, I don't know if it's right for me to be in this leadership role, and therefore a unbeliever is going to vault above that person's speaker or take that role on that somehow. [00:37:51] Jesse Schwamb: Again, God's superintendent will, or his strong arm is, is somehow pulled aback from what he wants to do that we need like more Christian plumbing in the world. I do kind of bristle that idea a little bit. Specifically because I wonder if sometimes we go outside of that calling. [00:38:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, I'm picking up what you're putting down and I think, I think there's, um, it, it does all come back to theology, the cross theology of glory. [00:38:17] Tony Arsenal: And I'm glad that, that, that conversation happened before this. 'cause I think there's good framework there. I, I think, um, we, we as Christians can often confuse. The transformative power of the gospel with other ways of transforming culture. Yeah, that's good. Right. So, um, it is totally, um, I wanna be careful how I phrase this. [00:38:42] Tony Arsenal: I'm not post mill, I'm probably never gonna be post mill, but I'm okay with a kind of post mill theology that says that the gospel of Jesus Christ, as people become Christians, the culture will. Change along with that. And the gospel has a transformative power in that it changes individuals and individuals make up, make up the broader society. [00:39:05] Tony Arsenal: And so the society itself changes. Where I struggle with some flavors of postal theology, and this is where I think the theology of glory comes in, is there are some kinds of postal theology I'm thinking, I'm thinking, um, like Doug Wilson, they just, uh, opened A-C-R-A-C church in Washington, DC specifically with the goal of gaining influence with politicians. [00:39:26] Tony Arsenal: Right. I might be misconstruing that a little bit 'cause I haven't read all of it, but that's, that's the impression that I'm getting from some of their promotional material. I, I think we can, we can look at it and say the gospel can change culture as the gospel. And so where that. [00:39:43] Sacrifices and Priorities in Christian Vocation [00:39:43] Tony Arsenal: Levels of playing field is that whether you are, and this is where I think a genuine Protestant reform theology of vocation comes in, whether you're the janitor of the hospital or whether you're the CEO of the hospital, the gospel is the same and your role in proclaiming the gospel is the same. [00:39:58] Tony Arsenal: And you might have more people's ear as the CEO than you do as the janitor. Although I would maybe question that knowing how many people janitors interact with at the hospital, um, you may have more people's ears in a higher level position, but the message that you're proclaiming, the influence that you're wielding or you're using, I don't know what you wanna say. [00:40:18] Tony Arsenal: It's not different because it's still just the gospel. [00:40:21] Jesse Schwamb: That's good. [00:40:21] Tony Arsenal: Um. Where I think we can get confused is when we look at it and say, but we have these other opportunities to transfer, transform the culture by, um, for example, I, I'm the supervisor in my patient relations department. I'm making changes to the, to the policy and the way that we as a sort of service recovery resolution group, the way that we interact with patients, I'm making changes to that. [00:40:46] Tony Arsenal: I think those changes are consistent with the law of God as revealed in the light of nature, and I'm. I'm informed of those things and my whole outlook and ethos is shaped by the scriptures, but. I don't see the transformation of the way we interact with patients as somehow propagating the gospel, right? [00:41:05] Tony Arsenal: So we can, we can make transformation and make society better, right? If you're a politician, you can, you can legislate things that make society more outwardly in conformity with the law of God or more pleasant and more prosperous, and more flourishing, and those are all fine and well, but that's not. [00:41:21] Tony Arsenal: Building the kingdom of God in, in a strict sense. Right? And so I think what we're getting at is our, would it be great if, if, you know, the CEO of a major Fortune 500 company could be a Christian? Yeah. That would be kind of cool. Sure of That'd be nice, of course. And yeah, they could probably do a lot of good things and they could probably shape the way that that business runs and they could probably, um, have more opportunities to share the gospel. [00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: They could probably shape their business into a vehicle that, that moves forward. Missions, all those things are great, but. If the trade off is that that person has to sacrifice their genuine Christian convictions, right? That's not worth it. And I think we, we look at this and we might be able to identify certain. [00:42:00] Tony Arsenal: Obvious ways that we would say, no, it's not worth it. Right? If a CEO, uh, the CEO of a major retailer has to give way to all of the, um, transgender LGBT sexual, you know, identity politics has to give way to that in order to survive as CEO, I think we would all look at that and go, yeah, it's probably a hard sacrifice, but that's a sacrifice we would expect a genuine Christian to make at that level. [00:42:25] Tony Arsenal: Where we might not look at it is saying, well, I don't know. The Bible says that if you don't properly care for your family, then you're worse than an unbeliever. That's right. And so that CEO that is at the office for 70 hours a week and is never home, um, and their kids don't, you know, their kids don't have an opportunity to know their father or their mother because their. [00:42:44] Tony Arsenal: Constantly jet setting around the world. I don't know that we would as readily identify that as a sacrifice. I would actually argue that, that the Bible is probably clearer about that being a problem than it is about identity politics or other sort of, of social issues that, that, uh, a business person might have to. [00:43:04] Tony Arsenal: Hold their nose a little bit and, and, you know, sign off on a commercial or something that they don't necessarily want to, I'm not advocating that they should do that, but I think the Bible is clearer about a person who is taken away from their home more than is reasonable and more than is healthy for their family. [00:43:20] Tony Arsenal: Or a Christian who never is able to worship on the Lord's day, um, or, or something like that. I think the Bible is clearer about that than it is on. Something like identity politics and some of the tangential ways that, that might, might cause a person to need to compromise a little bit at a high level. [00:43:35] Tony Arsenal: So I, I think this is a, it's an interesting question that we probably don't think about it from the right angle most of the time. [00:43:41] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's just too easy to consider this in light of if we can get more responsibility, that should always be a good thing. And I think that proclivity is, is fine and maybe even noble, but sometimes I think we do get it twisted where we get this sense that we are trying to make the world into something moral like the church. [00:43:57] Jesse Schwamb: And if we could do that in our jobs and get the most influence in that greatest sphere of impact. We should always take on those additional responsibilities. And I do think we have to sit back and ask and say, is that the calling? So that we're pursuing what is our vocation, not just our potential. [00:44:13] Jesse Schwamb: There's a lot of brilliant, God has made all kinds of brilliant people. Many of them are his children, and as a result of that, we might say like we should always again be trying to move up. And this is not to say that we shouldn't take great initiative, that we shouldn't want to try to do more and be more productive. [00:44:27] Jesse Schwamb: You and I have always been outspoken about that kind of thing, but I think there is a real temptation. To somehow say like, what we need to do is like to infiltrate in all the places. And I think what we mean by that is that things will, like, whether we wanna admit it or not, that things here will be better. [00:44:41] Jesse Schwamb: And I, I don't know all the time that what we're saying is what you just said, which was that what we're really concerned with is that the gospel get proclaimed more forthrightly. More loudly, more specifically, more cogently in all places. But that if we just had good examples of moral behavior and good character, yes, those things are profitable in and of their own ways, but there's also a lot of common grace we see God bring about good leaders who are not a Christian at high level to do that kind of thing. [00:45:05] Jesse Schwamb: And sometimes I do wonder, just depending on the job, quite honestly, whether it's really possible for Christian to be successful in that job. [00:45:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:45:14] Jesse Schwamb: As like the world or the industry or the company has defined it. I'm not sure that's the case, so I don't wanna put like too high a line on this. I think we're trying to just drop a bomb in some ways and say, I'm not gonna make it overly prescriptive and say like, as a Christian, you can't be a CEO. [00:45:29] Jesse Schwamb: Move on. That's not true at all. Of course, again, here are hopefully what we said about the particulars of that wrestling through it and again. Really sensing where there's an actual call on your life that God has given for that role in a particular time. But I do think we ought to question where there's always and everywhere appropriate for any Christian to take on, quite frankly, any job. [00:45:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And so I'm with you. Sometimes it's super easy when I first start out in banking, when I was looking for my second banking job. I had a great interview. It was a very nice company. The bank actually doesn't exist anymore, but, uh, one of the things, one of their big, like, kind of gimmicks was they were open seven days a week. [00:46:09] Jesse Schwamb: And so I said to them, well. I attend church on Sundays. That's my day of rest and my high conviction on that. And I said, is there any flexibility with that? And they said, Nope. You would still have to be on the schedule. And though they very graciously offered me the job, I was thankfully in a place where I, I turned that down. [00:46:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Actually I didn't have a job at the time, but I turned it down trusting. That God would provide. And this wasn't my great act of faith on my part. It was more of just, I think what you were saying, Tony, growing in our conviction that those things really do matter. Yes. And that it's sometimes just too easy to kind of push them aside and say, I, I know it's gonna be really stressful. [00:46:43] Jesse Schwamb: I know it might take much more of my time than I want to give. I know I might be at home a lot less. I know I might have less like attentional fortitude and space to think about my spouse or my children, but it's gonna be worth it because. I'll be able to like have this big influence. I do think sometimes madness lies that way. [00:47:02] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Certainly a great deal of foolishness. This is just hopefully a call for all of us as God's children to, to think through that. I don't wanna discourage anybody from taking on bigger and bolder things for the kingdom of God. I think we all have to think about what it is that we're. Promulgating or proclaiming when we talk about the Kingdom of God coming and whether or not we're just trying to make the world a better place, so to speak. [00:47:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. By bringing our like quote unquote Christian influence into a setting where really that influence is now particularly strong and what it's actually compromising is the vocation that we're meant to undertake. [00:47:37] Concluding Thoughts and Future Discussions [00:47:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Are you ready to, for me to drop two bombs? Just, just straight up. You got, [00:47:41] Jesse Schwamb: you got two of them. [00:47:42] Jesse Schwamb: Let's do it. I, I've [00:47:43] Tony Arsenal: got 13 minutes or less left on this episode. There go. So I actually got into a pretty big, uh, like a pretty big dust up with someone way back in the day when I was in the reform hub over actually this topic. And I'm surprised I didn't think of it earlier in the evening. Um, we are using like CEOs as like kind of the proxy for this, but there's all sorts of jobs where, um, your, your job may be admirable and it may be. [00:48:06] Tony Arsenal: Right. Even something that's sort of quote unquote necessary for society. But I got into a big dust up with someone who was an overroad trucker, right? And they were constantly, um, posting in the pub at, at back in the day. They were constantly posting how discouraged they were and, and how difficult their faith was and how much of a challenge it was to just remain faithful as a Christian. [00:48:27] Tony Arsenal: And I. Originally, I kind of naively and, and I think innocently said like, well, you know, like, have you talked to your pastor about this? And the person said like, well, I don't have a regular church because I'm always on the road. And I said like, well, there's your problem. Like there's the first step is like, figure out your local church thing. [00:48:43] Tony Arsenal: He said, well, I can't do that

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb dive deep into the intersection of pop culture, entertainment, and the Christian life. They explore how Christians can engage with leisure and media in a way that glorifies God, applying biblical principles like those found in 1 Corinthians 10:31 and Ecclesiastes 3. The hosts emphasize the importance of balancing Christian liberty and holiness, while also recognizing the practical role of rest and recreation in human flourishing. Through personal anecdotes and theological insights, they provide listeners with a framework for discerning entertainment choices, encouraging believers to enjoy God's good gifts without compromising their faith. Key Takeaways: Entertainment is a Gift from God: Leisure and entertainment, when approached rightly, are part of God's common grace meant to refresh and restore us. Biblical Principles for Consumption: 1 Corinthians 10:31 reminds Christians that all activities, including entertainment, should glorify God. If an activity cannot do so, it may be unlawful. Christian Liberty and Prudence: Decisions about pop culture often fall under the domain of Christian liberty, constrained by wisdom and prudence rather than legalistic rules. The Importance of Rest: Rest is not just about recharging for productivity; it is a God-given means of worship and human flourishing in its own right. Guarding Against Sinful Influences: Christians should be cautious of consuming media that promotes sin, as it can subtly shape their worldview and lead them astray. Personal Convictions and Context Matter: What is permissible for one believer may not be wise or beneficial for another, depending on individual struggles and contexts. Recreation Should Point Back to God: Whether through beauty, creativity, or storytelling, entertainment can lead Christians to worship God when consumed with discernment. Entertainment as a Gift from God Tony and Jesse emphasize that entertainment, when properly enjoyed, is a part of God's common grace. This means that activities like watching a movie, playing a video game, or reading a novel are not inherently sinful but can serve as vehicles for rest and refreshment. Drawing from Ecclesiastes 3, they highlight that God has ordained seasons for both work and rest. True rest, they argue, is not about escaping responsibilities but about enjoying God's gifts in ways that glorify Him and restore our energy to serve others. When approached with discernment, even "secular" forms of entertainment can reflect God's creativity and goodness. Applying Biblical Principles to Entertainment The hosts discuss how 1 Corinthians 10:31 provides a litmus test for media consumption: "Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." This principle challenges believers to ask whether their entertainment choices align with God's glory. For example, content that promotes or glamorizes sin—whether through violence, sexual immorality, or blasphemy—should give Christians pause. However, they also note that some depictions of sin in fiction can serve a redemptive purpose, such as illustrating the consequences of sin or the beauty of redemption. The key is to thoughtfully evaluate whether the media being consumed inclines the heart toward holiness or pulls it away from God. Christian Liberty and Prudence Tony and Jesse stress the importance of Christian liberty in deciding on entertainment choices, while cautioning against legalism. They explain that Christian liberty does not mean a license to sin but rather the freedom to make God-honoring decisions in areas where Scripture does not provide explicit commands. Prudence and wisdom must guide these decisions. For instance, a particular TV show or game may be permissible for one believer but harmful for another, depending on their personal struggles or circumstances. This underscores the need for self-awareness and reliance on the Holy Spirit to discern what is spiritually beneficial. Quotes: "Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. If we cannot glorify God in an activity, it's likely unlawful for us as Christians." – Jesse Schwamb "Recreation is not just about recharging for productivity; it has its own value in glorifying God and enjoying His good gifts." – Tony Arsenal "Every story worth telling reflects, in some way, the greatest story ever told: redemption through Christ." – Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript: [00:00:30] Introduction and Episode Overview [00:00:30] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 457 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:37] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast where sound doctrine meets brotherly love. Hey brother. [00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. So we're in a whole series of little one-off conversations, all kinds of things that just pop into our head, or we've had on a list somewhere that we thought, you know what? [00:00:55] Jesse Schwamb: Someday we should talk about that. And I think we've got another great. Conversation coming up on this episode, we're gonna get into a little bit about how Christians should interact with and consume pop culture maybe, and especially things like entertainment. And I know that there are gonna be people out there thinking, wow, these guys are gonna do what reform people always do. [00:01:15] Jesse Schwamb: They're just gonna come out into their lawn, they're gonna shake their fists angrily at the sky, they're gonna yell at the birds. It might not be that way, loved ones, but you're gonna have to wait. We're gonna talk about it. It's gonna be good. We're gonna get after it. We all do it. Everybody loves a bit of a to consume pop culture. [00:01:31] Jesse Schwamb: Is it possible it might be somewhat of a gift that God has given us? Who knows? Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but we'll get to that. But first, let's affirm with or denying against something in the world. So what have you got for us on this episode, Tony? [00:01:45] Tony's Frustrating Customer Service Experience [00:01:45] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna keep mine super short. It was a frustrating customer service experience, uh, that I had today. [00:01:52] Tony Arsenal: In general, I, I have, uh, Comcast or Xfinity Internet in general. I'm actually very pleased. Their service. Um, I, I actually find them to be responsive. Um, I've managed to get a decent price. I don't have Comcast television, so that's probably part of it. Um, but I, my cable modem. Slash router, which I've had, I don't know, probably for like eight years. [00:02:13] Tony Arsenal: Um, it finally died, so I bit the bullet and bought a brand new one. And those man, those things have gotten expensive and um, you know, it's supposed to be a super easy installation. You plug it in, you do the little thing on the app and it didn't work. So I had to connect with customer service through the app, and. [00:02:30] Tony Arsenal: It seemed like everything was going fine. And then all of a sudden I get a link in my text message and the lady who's chatting with me on the thing says, well just, just scroll down and click on where it says accept and then hit okay. And I was like, that seems sketchy. So I read it and she was, she had sent me a link to change my internet service. [00:02:51] Tony Arsenal: Uh, she was giving me a 90, an $80 promotional price for the first year. Uh, but then it went up to $140 after the first year. Wow. So I went back to the chat app and I said, I'm sorry, I, I must have miscommunicated something. I don't need to change my service. I just need to activate my modem. She said, oh, no, no, you're not changing your service. [00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: And I said, no, I, I definitely am. She goes, let me explain this to you. And she went through and tried, like, she went through and she's like, your speed is this and you're paying this. And I said, and I said, with all due respect, I'm not stupid. I can see that you're trying to change my service and I'm just not interested. [00:03:27] Tony Arsenal: And I had to fight with her for like 10 minutes before I finally said, just activate my modem, please. I'm not interested. Full stop. So I, I guess I'm just denying. I get, I get it. Like, you gotta try to upsell. I used to be in sales. I don't have any problem with you trying to upsell. I, I don't even necessarily have a problem with you trying to be clever and like, you know, intentional about how you upsell. [00:03:48] Tony Arsenal: Like there are ways that you can do that without being deceptive. This was just deceptive. So I'm not denying Comcast. I'm pleased with my service. I'm denying this particular person and this really just underhanded tactic. It was really, really upsetting. I mean, [00:04:02] Jesse Schwamb: there is nothing like good customer service, right? [00:04:04] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, the converse of that is what a blessing it is, and it's kind of a lesson to all of us and how we treat one another. That is whether we're providing the service or we ourselves are consuming it. It is just such a blessing. It's like so easy and so light when you get somebody who really wants to help you. [00:04:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And. You know, I would not have changed my service, but I can imagine that somebody who was looking and was interested, if she had just said straightforwardly, like your internet that you have is far slower than the modem that you're, you're installing, right? Um, we can get you a faster internet speed and give you a, a large discount for the first year. [00:04:42] Tony Arsenal: Are you interested in that? I think a good portion of people would just say yes. Even if they didn't think it through, they would just say, oh yeah, sure. Faster speed, less money. They, they wouldn't think it through. That's not deceptive. If you present an option, honestly, to a consumer and they take it and they didn't understand the terms, that's not deception. [00:04:58] Tony Arsenal: That's on them as the consumer for not thinking through what they're purchasing. This was just straight out, like, don't read it, just click on it, it's fine. Totally underhanded, deceptive. Um, and, and you know, I work in. Sort of a kind of customer service and I just can't imagine ever doing something that shady and calling it customer service. [00:05:15] Tony Arsenal: I was, I was very disappointed. [00:05:17] Jesse Schwamb: But I mean, everybody has customers, right? Yeah. Everybody has somebody they're responsible to, and everybody has people to whom they should be responsible in the kind of care. Whatever you provide to somebody, whether it's your family, it's in your church, it's in your job, so, right. [00:05:30] Jesse Schwamb: I like that. It's a good reminder because again, there's nothing like walking away from experience and being like, wow, that was so easy, or that person was so good to help me. Yeah. Or like they really got me to the end that I was looking for and they did it and I felt better afterwards than I did before I called. [00:05:43] Jesse Schwamb: That should be like our goal, like what does great look like in every interaction that we can have with somebody. [00:05:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight? [00:05:52] Jesse's Affirmation: The Plana App for Plant Care [00:05:52] Jesse Schwamb: I'm going back to the app. Well, and by that was a really weird saying of just, I'm gonna affirm with another app. So I really love a good house plant, but I'm no good at the house plants. [00:06:02] Jesse Schwamb: I really like the way they look. It's a lot of pressure with house plans. Maybe people feel this way. Maybe you've not purchased a house plant or been like, I can't be that person. So here's something that I can confirm with for you. Loved one, it's a app called Plana. It's a Swedish plant care app, and it's designed to help both like novice people like me and I guess really experienced plant owners keep their house and garden plants healthy, which I know sounds super boring, but hear me out on this. [00:06:27] Jesse Schwamb: This is what's cool about this. It offers smart, personalized care reminders for things like watering, fertilizing, misting, repotting, and it has all these things where if you, there's paid subscription for this as well, which I do not have, but I looked at all the options. There's some super cool things like you can use your phone to sense where your plan is sitting, how much light it's getting to really tell you, is this the right spot for my plant? [00:06:49] Jesse Schwamb: Because you know, like some plants are like, we need partial sunlight and partial shade and afternoon sun and direct sun, and you need to water me, but not too much and not so often, but just the right amount. It's a lot of pressure. So it's got all these fun features in it, including like an AI doctor. So you can take a look or a picture of your plant rather, and not only will it describe what plants you have, of course, but it will help you say like, Hey, this thing is not healthy. [00:07:08] Jesse Schwamb: Here's what you should do. So the plant app is, might be your foray into feeling more confident about having some greenery in your house. [00:07:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, um, I could kill a plastic plant. I could kill like a fake plant, uh, without trying, uh, but I might check this out. You, you've seen my, my home. You've been here? [00:07:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Um, my, my house is, it's a, a mobile home and so it's, it's just one long line and it's situated like almost directly east, west. So I get direct sunlight over the top of the house pretty much the entire day. And we have really beautiful, um. Violet cone plants and some other like lilies on one end of the house, um, that the previous owner planted. [00:07:46] Tony Arsenal: They're very beautiful, but um, they just get baked in the sun and there's gotta be something that can be done to sort of help them through this. Maybe it's more water or something like that. So maybe I'll check this out and see if that can help. 'cause they're not, they're not doing great. Um, they, they didn't bloom very well this year. [00:08:00] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. And I'm, I'm wondering if it might be, I dunno, it's been kind of dry, um, this part of the year, more than usual, so I'll check that out. That sounds like a good recommendation. There's a couple of different apps. This one sounds good. [00:08:10] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's, there's certainly a lot of stuff that you can get free in it. [00:08:14] Jesse Schwamb: Of course, they want to upsell you like you just talked about. They're, no, no, they're no Comcast, but they definitely would like you to purchase all their other features, and I bet for the right person, it's totally worth it. But I feel so much more confident now. Mainly just the watering. If you surprised how like much pressure. [00:08:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, like aloe plants and also I'm learning the names of my plants finally, which makes me feel more connected. This, this is, listen, this is like the app to help you take dominion in your house over house plants, which sounds like the lowest form of taking dominion, but honestly still shows how complex and complicated life can be and how God has made everything in this really wonderful way. [00:08:52] Jesse Schwamb: So I'm feeling more empowered to love my plants and to hopefully keep them growing. I was gonna say for generations, but I doubt that I'll be passing on links, plants for generations, but hopefully getting just lots more greenery into our living spaces, which is always super fun. [00:09:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, um, I would like to have more plants, but I just, with between toddlers and dogs and my ability to kill anything green that is in my home, uh, I don't think it would be good. [00:09:19] Tony Arsenal: That's your, your sister who is My wife does a good job with plants, but even the, yeah, she does, even, even that the plants die just because they're around me. I'm not sure what it is. I have like a, I hear it, listen, an aura of some sort that just kills plants. [00:09:32] Discussing Christians and Pop Culture [00:09:32] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's difficult sometimes to grow in soil, which is, I, one of the things I presume Christians often feel like when they're in the culture and when, mm-hmm. [00:09:41] Jesse Schwamb: Do. Do you like that segue? We're so good with this. I do. And when you are consuming, let me say pop culture, or you find yourself in a place where you want entertainment and you want to rest, and I think if you're a Christian for any length of time, you start to ask yourself, okay, so what's my place in all of this? [00:09:59] Jesse Schwamb: And what's interesting when I thought about this topic, which you graciously put forward for us, was that I think several times we've mentioned kind of cultural things often in the affirmation and denial section. Yeah. Where we've. Maybe come hard alongside something and said, this seems good. And other times we've definitely said, this seems very, very bad. [00:10:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. But we've never really had just a pretty honest conversation about, okay, so how does the Christian discern, what is the Christian's role in making that discernment? And how can we, like our house plants grow and flourish in that kind of environment to such a degree that we are actually bearing fruit by the power of the Holy Spirit. [00:10:36] Jesse Schwamb: And yet, of course, separate. From that culture in which we still find ourselves. [00:10:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think it bears saying, um, much of popular culture, media, whatever it might be, a lot of it is going to be a matter of Christian prudence and liberty. And I think it's important to say that because I think, you know, we'll talk about, we'll probably talk about like principles we use to try to determine whether we, you know, individually or, or whatever. [00:11:04] Tony Arsenal: We're going to watch something or listen to something, but. The, the Bible doesn't say like thou shalt, and I'm gonna say this example, and it's a little bit ironic because this is actually a show that I think is pretty black and white. But it, it's not like the Bible says, thou shalt not watch Game of Thrones. [00:11:20] Tony Arsenal: Right. Um. Right. Like thou shalt not. Listen to, I don't know who the kids are listening to. Britney Spears like tells you when The last time I listened to popular music was, is Britney Spears is the name on my mind. But like thou shalt not listen to, I dunno, Paramore, I don't know name. Name your pop culture band. [00:11:37] Tony Arsenal: The Bible doesn't give us explicit instructions about specific bands. Movies, shows, insert, pop, you know, novels, whatever it might be. It does give us some wisdom principles. And then of course, there's God's moral law, uh, but even God's moral law does not. Necessarily apply directly to every pop culture choice we might make. [00:12:04] Tony Arsenal: So I'm sure Jesse and I don't have identical opinions. I'm gonna guess that our thoughts are probably pretty close just because, you know, we're influenced by the same people and we, we are running in the same broader theological circles, but they're probably not identical. There are probably things that Jesse would watch that I'd go, oh, I don't know if that's such a great thing for me. [00:12:22] Tony Arsenal: And there's probably things I would feel comfortable with that Jesse might say, eh, I'm not so sure about that. This is usually a matter of Christian liberty constrained by Christian prudence and wisdom. So before we get into any of the nitty gritty or any specific talk of anything particular, I wanna get that out there because yes, we have to be wise, we have to. [00:12:44] Tony Arsenal: Apply God's law, but we are not able to bind other people's conscience and you are not able to bind other people's conscience based on your own particular opinion about something or your own interpretation of how the Bible is to be applied to a particular decision. Um. You know, again, you can speak into a situation. [00:13:03] Tony Arsenal: You, especially if you have a relationship with someone, you can say, Hey, I don't think this is healthy. I don't think this is in conformity with God's law, but at the end of the day, that is between that Christian and God as to whether or not they are applying God's law appropriately and, and in to an extent, and to a great extent between them and their elders. [00:13:21] Tony Arsenal: Right? The elders have a, a different role of authority in a, in a Christian's life than other Christians do. And [00:13:27] Jesse Schwamb: it might be worth saying as we begin that we're kind of talking about this, I think in part because we all feel that pull to consume pop culture, and what I kind of teased at the beginning is this idea, is it possible that, I think we're really speaking about consuming that in a kind of a way of entertainment of like rest and relaxation. [00:13:45] Jesse Schwamb: Principally there. There are other reasons I think as well, and that might be to edify, to educate, but I think principally when we feel this compulsion to say, well, I like you, just give great examples. Listen to music, watch a sporting event, watch tv, read something fiction or nonfiction. I think what we're after there is this idea that we want to rest and that understanding that entertainment is a part of the rest that God intends for us to enjoy from our labors is by itself, full stop, a legitimate thing. [00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: So the question is. A little bit more nuanced. Where is that line? You already gave, I think a pretty good example of something that you and I would agree on would say that that's a bridge to fight across. Don't watch that thing, right? Yeah, do something else. But the question is how did we get to that place in making that judgment? [00:14:28] Jesse Schwamb: And is there a place in there where we would say, well, the Bible is an explicit about, let's say certain medium or even like specific things within that medium that it is outspoken enough that we ought to say. No, we will not do that. So I think this is what we're after in part, is this proper use of entertainment involving, of course, analyzing worldviews, appreciating elements of beauty and creativity, acknowledging reflections of truth. [00:14:53] Jesse Schwamb: But that also that in some way, all of this is God's gift to us. That while the Bible does not give us a great deal of explicit statements about how believers are to view entertainment, there is much we can draw out to scripture by way of good and necessary consequence to borrow language from somewhere else. [00:15:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:15:11] Applying Biblical Principles to Entertainment Choices [00:15:11] Tony Arsenal: And I also think too, like this is a question that often is presented as very simple and very like cut and dry, but it can be a lot more complicated than you think. And here's an example, and we don't have to get into this particular example, but let's do it. You know, I think a lot of times people, um, will take the example of blasphemy. [00:15:32] Tony Arsenal: Right, and a show that is, or a, a video game, whatever it is, content that is intentionally blaspheming, God is something that at a bare minimum, Christians should be very wary of participating in and consuming just because it, it's something that openly dishonors God is probably not something Christians should be eager to participate in or to consume, but. [00:15:56] Tony Arsenal: Um, there, there are instances where a, a show or a, a video game or a book contains a fictionalized blast swimming of God that actually may serve the greater purpose of glorifying God. So if you think of like, um. Think of a, a book or a a movie where there is a character who is a non-Christian, and over the course of the book, they are shown to be blaspheming God, and then they experience a conversion. [00:16:24] Tony Arsenal: And the purpose of the, the purpose of the book is to glorify God through this conversion redemption story. That it character in that fictionalized universe is blasphemy God within that universe, right? Or within that fictionalized story. But the purpose of that blasphemy is actually to serve the greater purpose of glorifying God. [00:16:46] Tony Arsenal: So that's not to say that automatically anything like that gets a pass, right? That can be done well, that can be done poorly. That can be done in a way that actually glorifies God. It can be done in a way that doesn't actually hit the mark. But it's not as simple as to say, this character in this show. [00:17:00] Tony Arsenal: Engaged in blasphemy. Therefore, we should never consume that show. We have to do some actual thinking and some actual analysis of what's going on in order to. Understand whether or not it actually is violating God's law. Now there are probably some things, um, you know, like graphic sex scenes. There's really no reason, um, for Christians to feel drawn to shows that contain that. [00:17:25] Tony Arsenal: Again, this is, this is, um, I, I, at this point in my life and I, in earlier periods in my life, I might have been more black and white on this. I am not here to tell you what you can and can't watch. That's not my role. I'm not the Holy Spirit. I'm not your pastor. I'm not any of the persons or people who have an obligation to tell you what is or isn't, right? [00:17:46] Tony Arsenal: Like I'm not that person. But I cannot think of personally a reason why a Christian would, would need to, or should ever participate in like enjoying a show that contains graphic sex scenes. Um. The people making those have to sin in order to make those scenes right. So there are, there are things we should consider. [00:18:12] Tony Arsenal: Are kind of always off board, right? It's always off board to do physical harm to somebody in the service of making a movie, right? So if you have a movie where people are, are actively trying to hurt each other in order to produce the film, I'm not sure that we should participate in that. I wouldn't feel comfortable if I knew that was going on in a film. [00:18:28] Tony Arsenal: I don't, I don't, you know, again, other Christians might, and we can have a conversation about that, but we have to think about those things. Do the actors. Do the people who are creating the content, do they have to sin in order to create it? If that, if the answer is yes, we as Christians, I think should be extremely, extremely wary of, of even watching or consuming those things. [00:18:49] Tony Arsenal: So those are the kinds of questions and situations that I think need to be list like thought about as we approach pop culture. But I also think, Jesse, you know, you made the point to that. Popular culture, entertainment broadly is a gift from God for us to enjoy. Right? And it's okay to enjoy it. It's okay for us to participate in that. [00:19:09] Tony Arsenal: You know, we're not, we're not the people who are gonna say to you like, well, you know, every minute you spend, uh, reading, I don't know, uh, reading will of the many, every minute you spend reading Will of the many you could spend witnessing to people, right? So therefore, you should never read Will of the many or The Hobbit or whatever it might be. [00:19:27] Tony Arsenal: Um, but we should think carefully about what we consume, how much of it we consume, when we consume it, all those are questions that the Christian needs to ask themselves. [00:19:35] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. I think the broad test here is actually not that difficult to comprehend. It's probably more that we sometimes hesitate to apply it because we're afraid of what it might mean for the stuff that we're consuming. [00:19:46] Jesse Schwamb: So again, like ceasing from our work in order to rest holds us together like that, that is something that God gives us as a pattern relaxation that we should take joy in. It must be the right amounts of lawful entertainment or consumption of all of this stuff in pop culture, but it is there. I think like even God gives it our own cultures as a means for us to find that kind of rest and to find some comradery and solidarity even with those in whom we interact and live with. [00:20:13] Jesse Schwamb: I think all of that's fine. Like you've said, it gets a little tricky when we start thinking about, well, where is that appropriate line? What is our conviction? But I think part of the problem with that is that we might not be seeking out conviction for ourselves. We not be asking because we hate to find that there is conviction in things that we're watching because there's gonna be a lot of things'. [00:20:31] Jesse Schwamb: That society's gonna be preoccupied with for entertainment for its own sake. And again, it's an indicator that everybody, men and women, even children, are seeking rest from the burden of their work and that rest is okay. Even that itself, like you're saying, Tony, it's interesting. I think so much we're gonna come back to is this idea of it. [00:20:47] Jesse Schwamb: Is, are we redeeming what we're doing in this process? Are we being not just thoughtful about discerning, adjudicating, or interrogating what we're watching and listening and reading, but as we do it, are we thoughtful people? Are we seeing the themes even in those joyous things that we find as entertainment that draw us back to the goodness of God that explains something about the world he's created or his own character finding? [00:21:10] Jesse Schwamb: Of course, that in every story is just a reflection of the greatest story ever told. Like, yeah, all of those themes, all the things we are drawn to that we gravitate towards. That move us. All of those things still come from God. And so therefore, even our entertainment can serve this purpose of not just alleviating our minds and bodies from the burden of ongoing labor in a fallen world, but can also draw, draw us back to God's common grace and his particular grace for his people who are always sinners. [00:21:34] Jesse Schwamb: So here's the the first test. I think it's the most simple one. And everybody's gonna throw their listening devices at the wall because it's the one that's the most straightforward. It's the one you might've been thinking you're gonna get to eventually, and let's just get it out of the way. I don't say that because it's not worthwhile. [00:21:49] Jesse Schwamb: I say it because it's exactly the kind of worthwhile test that we should apply, and it applies perfectly in every situation. And that's the Apostle Paul setting out in one Corinthians 10 31. Here it is. This is like. You know, top 20 reform verses whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. [00:22:07] Jesse Schwamb: So the beauty of this is I think just first pass, first blush, top of the house. If we cannot engage in an entertaining activity in such a way as to glorify God, then it's just unlawful. And by way of contrast, if you can, then we're justified in viewing it as a gift of God's common grace. I, I just throw it out there to start with. [00:22:26] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think that it's not that we found that this particular test has been tried and left wanting, but rather we haven't tried it very well. Oftentimes. Yeah. At least for my own sake. And instead we say, well, the Bible just isn't clear. But if you're, watch your point, Tony. If you're watching something that is gratuitous in any way, and you stop and say. [00:22:44] Jesse Schwamb: Am I glorifying God in the consumption of this? I think it's really difficult to make a strong argument that in some way you are actively, not just passively and saying like, well, it's okay and there's gonna be a redeeming story plot in here somewhere, I hope. But are we actively, whenever, whenever we're doing or we're consuming these things, are we actually glorifying God? [00:23:02] Jesse Schwamb: Is God glorified in. What's happening with my mind, my thoughts, my body, my eyes, my conversations, how this shapes me, how this changes my worldview. If we have to answer that God is not glorified there, then to my view, it's unlawful. And I think also in the eyes of the Apostle Paul. [00:23:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:23:20] Personal Convictions and Christian Liberty [00:23:20] Tony Arsenal: And you know, I think something that is important to, um. [00:23:24] Tony Arsenal: Comment on and think about when we sort of apply that test, that test really has more to do with what's going on in our heart. Yes. When we are consuming any particular part, you know, any particular media than it necessarily has to do with the media itself. I think there are some things, um, that. Just cannot be consumed to the glory of God. [00:23:46] Tony Arsenal: Right? You can't watch pornography to the glory of God, like you just can't do it. Um, you can't, you can't watch people murder each other for, you know, to the glory of God. But the vast majority of things that are out there, um, the, the, the question you're asking is not primarily grounded in the content itself. [00:24:07] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's grounded in. What the content does to us and in us and how we process it. And I think that's why I, you know, I always wanna say for most things, this goes back to Christian Liberty and. Christian Liberty is not a license to sin. It's, it's a freedom to, um, to obey, right? It's a freedom and it's a range of possibilities to obey God in different ways, in different situations, rather than some tightly constrained, tightly restricted behavioral code, right? [00:24:39] Tony Arsenal: There is a law. God gives us a law. We talked about this at length when we did the 10 commandment series. He gives us a law, but this law is a set of 10 principles for godly living. Not a, an exhaustive list of do this, don't do that. Right? So the seventh commandment, you know, for media. Is this inclining my mind towards chastity and purity of thought, right? [00:25:02] Tony Arsenal: For those of us who are married, is this likely to, um, create a barrier in my relationship with my wife, or is this likely to enhance the relationship I have with my wife? Is this. Particular thing I'm doing, this video game that I play, is this likely to draw my attention away from my children when they need me? [00:25:19] Tony Arsenal: Or is it something that I have that is likely to increase my ability to pay attention to my children? Or am I able to properly balance the demands that my children have and the needs my children have while I still play this video game, just as an example. So we can still use those 10 principles to help guide us, but the way that those. [00:25:38] Tony Arsenal: The way that the law is applied to these questions and how it is, is gonna be unique, I think almost, almost across the board for things. It's gonna be unique to each individual, right? One person may be able to, yeah, like my big thing and I like, okay, I'm just gonna put this out there. I'm just gonna lay myself bare here. [00:25:55] Tony Arsenal: If I could say that I have one actual real addiction in life, it's probably World of Warcraft, and I know that sounds probably really silly, but even me saying and saying the phrase World of Warcraft, in my mind I'm like, could I figure out a way that I could go back in and play that game? Like they call it World of Warcraft for a reason. [00:26:14] Tony Arsenal: It is super addictive and it's very easy to fall back into it. I'm sure there are people out there who can perfectly just fine, could manage their life of having children and a wife and a job and, you know, service to the church and still play World of Warcraft for a couple hours a week or, or an hour every night and still be just fine. [00:26:33] Tony Arsenal: I cannot do that. If I subscribe to World of Warcraft, it will imbalance my life such that something that God is calling me to, that I know God is calling me to, is going to be pushed out of the way for that. So for me. I cannot fulfill my obligations and participate in that particular element of pop culture. [00:26:52] Tony Arsenal: And I think there's probably something like that for most of us. Again, someone else may be able to do that just fine. There are probably many people who can do that just fine. That's a problem in my own heart. And the way I address that is by saying, this is just not healthy for me, so I'm not gonna do it. [00:27:05] Tony Arsenal: And whether that's a TV show or a a book series. I know people who won't read certain books because they get so immersed in it and it sort of like shapes their worldview in really unhealthy ways. They just won't pick up a particular set of novels or a particular book series. Um, you know, I've told this story that I, I don't remember where I was flying. [00:27:24] Tony Arsenal: Um, it wasn't. I must have been flying to Minnesota. That's the only place I've traveled by air for quite a long time. Um, I stopped in the, the bookstore, the, you know, the, the souvenir store, whatever. And I forgot a, I forgot a book at home of all the people to forget a book. And I was like, you know, there's this big hub lu about Game of Thrones and you know, maybe the book is better than the show. [00:27:43] Tony Arsenal: And like, you know, I can control what I'm imagining and it's easier for me to skip over parts and nobody is having to make graphic sex scenes. Even if they're sort of portrayed in the book. I can maybe do this. I got like. A chapter and a half into the book and was like, I can't, this is not healthy for me. [00:27:57] Tony Arsenal: It's not helpful. It doesn't glorify God. It's not true. It's not noble, it's not honorable, it's not worthy of praise. Right. I'm just gonna, and I just threw the book away. I spent like $15 on a book and then I just threw it in the garbage. Um, and I don't say that to like prop myself up as some bastion of self control. [00:28:10] Tony Arsenal: That's just in that moment I made the right decision. But there are things like that, that you are gonna have to look at your own self to say, I cannot participate in this, even if someone else might be able to. I personally cannot. And I think that's really the more the question we need to ask then. Are there universal principles that say, I can't do A, B, or C? [00:28:30] Tony Arsenal: It's really about my heart in the moment and how my heart is affected by a given thing. [00:28:36] Jesse Schwamb: Much like the 10 Commandments. This whole conversation in the scriptural, I think admonishment here is very much about freeing us up to enjoy freedom, to have joy in these things. It's not about just saying, well, here's a list of things that you can't do. [00:28:51] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't that unfortunate? Everybody else can do them, but you can't enjoy them. Instead, Scott saying like you're talking about Tony, no put to death all these evil, selfish things that are in your life that actually destruct. And instead, enjoy entertainment and pop culture in such a way that not only glorifies him, but does truly refresh you so that you're not drawn back into patterns of selfish behavior or sinful thinking, or all kinds of, you know, sexual frivolity that's going to lead your mind and your body and your heart astray or into places that you'll end up getting hurt. [00:29:25] Jesse Schwamb: I think. The beauty of this is it just provides us with a way to think and discern about the stuff that we're consuming so that we're ensured. Then it's fulfilling the right purpose that God has for in our lives, and that's freeing. When you get to a place where the scripture says like, here's the way walking it, then you know that you can walk confidently and you can enjoy that very thing. [00:29:46] Jesse Schwamb: One great example, I think that sit on both sides, we can talk about in some ways how there's like a, a lack of, or like kinda a, a moral perspective with certain types of medium of expression. One of those I think famously is, is music. Luther famously said, musical performance is principle among the entertainment that God has graciously given us to enjoy in life. [00:30:06] Jesse Schwamb: And yet who hasn't been part of either music that has been absolutely refreshing, absolutely life-giving, absolutely calming and beautiful in the same way that like David played before King Saul when he was distressed. And maybe you've had this experience where there's some kind of soothing melody that was just a bomb to your soul and your condition in that state. [00:30:25] Jesse Schwamb: And then also. On the other side, who hasn't listened even to some really catchy music that's been filled with like sexual perversion, misogyny, violence themes that at the end of it, you may have enjoyed the beat, but it's, it's just left you kind of feeling gross. And disgusted. Yeah. Even with yourself for enjoying it. [00:30:45] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think that's what we're after here is like to be freed up to enjoy this kind of entertainment in a way that it is truly the gift that God has given rather than something that enslaves us. And I'm gonna argue that it often does. Not because it's just addictive, though. [00:30:59] The Influence of Entertainment on Our Lives [00:30:59] Jesse Schwamb: It can be, but because it does actually influence us deeply and, and I think one thing is clear is that all the things we're talking about here that's present in entertainment, and I'm talking all the way back to things like athletic performance, all of this beauty and creativity, art expressed both in film literature and in music, that all of those things God has given us for our good and for his glory. [00:31:22] Jesse Schwamb: So he wants us to enjoy them. But sin is of course gonna take all those things and pervert them and twist them in such a way that they no longer become life-giving or become life taking. The problem is they take life incrementally and on the margin. Yeah. And so that you rarely feel that that's going on. [00:31:37] Jesse Schwamb: You rarely sense the divide of the chasm that's creating in your thought patterns, in the way that you interact with people, even the way that you interact with God until, not that it's too late, but that's, you wake up and you think, my goodness, how far have I gone from what I think this is really intended to be in my life? [00:31:52] Jesse Schwamb: Then maybe addiction does crop up in such a place that you're like this. This has gone too far. But I think, again, like many things in life, when God says no, what he's saying is, do not hurt yourself. I know better. I want you to enjoy these things. So I see this as like our opportunity to like empower to come with the scriptures, bearing full weights on what we consume, not because we need more laundry lists of things to avoid, but because we need direction on what is best to sink our entertainment time and resources into. [00:32:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I, I think that's a good, um, that's a good, maybe a next test right? [00:32:25] Balancing Time and Entertainment Choices [00:32:25] Tony Arsenal: Is we only have a finite amount of time. We, we, and, and I'm not even just talking about like in general, we have a, I'm, I'm talking about like we have a finite amount of discretionary time. We all have commitments, we have jobs, we have families, we have church commitments, we have friends that we wanna maintain relationships with. [00:32:43] Tony Arsenal: The amount of time we have to just like sit down and consume pop culture is limited no matter, no matter who you are. Some people have more, some people have less. Um, we can consume. Ev, every time we say yes to one thing, we're saying no to another thing, right? There is, um, there is popular culture or content out there that absolutely is encouraging, right? [00:33:05] Tony Arsenal: And absolutely is going to enhance your life, and it's going to enhance your piety and your devotion to God, right? And I'm not just talking about like Christian content. There's decent Christian content out there. There's decent Christian films, there's decent Christian music, there's decent Christian fiction writing. [00:33:22] Tony Arsenal: Um, there's probably even decent Christian video games, although I haven't run into them, I'm sure they're out there. Um. But that's not even what I'm talking about. [00:33:30] Finding Value in Non-Christian Content [00:33:30] Tony Arsenal: There there are, there are non quote, non-Christian, um, right there. There's General grace. Common grace works out there that will, they'll, they'll make you smarter. [00:33:41] Tony Arsenal: It will make you healthier. It'll help you enhance your life. It'll help you enjoy your world more. It'll help you enjoy and see the beauty in God's creation. More I've, I've commented, um. At length, and this isn't necessarily pop culture, although it kind of bridges the gap a little bit. I've commented at length on how beneficial in my life, Ryan holiday's, writings have been. [00:33:58] Tony Arsenal: Right? Right. That's what he doesn't get everything right. There are some things he gets very wrong, um, but. I, I read, um, Ryan Holiday's, stoic. Stoic Works, and I wouldn't say he's a scholar of stoicism. He's more like a modern day stoic philosopher. I read his works and I benefit from him. It makes my life better. [00:34:17] Tony Arsenal: It makes my devotion to God better. It makes my piety better. It makes me a better husband and a better father, and a better employee just in general. It makes me a better person. Not because Ryan Holiday is some special thing, but because he seems to have tapped into common grace principles that other writers haven't, I have a choice. [00:34:33] Tony Arsenal: You know? Do I wanna read that or do I wanna read some? Um, and don't get me wrong, I enjoy manga, but like, do I wanna read some. Meaningless, pointless manga that is just the same story over and over again with different animation. You know, some people might find that the reading the manga is the right thing for them and that enhances their life. [00:34:51] Tony Arsenal: Right? But for me, I've had to make that calculation. I only have so much time. I only have so much time to read. Um, and, and this is might be a shock to people. There are times where I'll have the decision between reading a theology book and. Being caught up on my reading in Daily Stoic, I most often will take time to read the Daily Stoic instead of reading something. [00:35:10] Tony Arsenal: For example, I'm way behind on Daily Devotion or Daily Doctrine by Kevin De Young Way Behind, but I'm not behind on, on Daily Dad or daily Stoic from Ryan Holiday. That's not because one, one thing is better than the other necessarily, but what I need in my life and what God is calling me to. The writings by di by Ryan Holiday right now are more effective in a, in accomplishing those tasks and into shaping me into who I believe God wants me to be. [00:35:37] Tony Arsenal: So that's the other question we have to ask is what? [00:35:40] The Importance of Rest and Leisure [00:35:40] Tony Arsenal: What is the most beneficial thing for us at the moment? It could be some sort of mindless cotton, candy entertainment. There's nothing wrong with that. This isn't, this isn't me saying like find, this isn't like hustle culture for pop culture. Like sometimes you just need to veg out and do something that doesn't require any brain power, and that's what God is, is giving you as a gift for your rest and your re recuperation. [00:36:04] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes it's a hard hitting. Heavy theology. Sometimes you need to sit down and read some Bob Ink again, not that that's pop culture, but I think the broader principle applies. Maybe you need to sit down and read some Turin, or maybe you need to like scroll Instagram for a little while and watch funny cat videos, right? [00:36:19] Tony Arsenal: All of those things are good things. They're all gifts from God in the proper proportions and at the proper time, and that's why this can be such a complicated question is because we have to have a good, robust. Honest reflection of who we are and what we need in order to make these, these decisions. Um, and it really is about what do we need in the moment? [00:36:37] Tony Arsenal: What is God calling us to? What is the wise thing to do right now, the wise thing to consume right now? Um, and, and I think that's a good test. Is this the most effective thing and accomplishing in my life what needs to be accomplished, right? That could be all sorts of goals, but is this the most effective thing to accomplish that at my life right now? [00:36:57] Tony Arsenal: If so, and it's not sinful, and then have at it enjoy. You know, I think those are the kinds of questions we need to ask, and I don't think we often ask that. I think we are often passive. And neutral in decisions about what we're gonna watch for pop culture. We're driven by what is the most popular thing on Netflix? [00:37:15] Tony Arsenal: What does the algorithm recommend for us? Or what is being talked about at work? Or what do I have on hand? What do I have easy access to? Um, I think we need to be more active and intentional in our decisions on this towards those ends. [00:37:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. And there's no accounting for taste, right? I mean, part, part of time we get caught up in that, so we'll just say, well, maybe what I'm experiencing, because I'm a Christian, I'm trying to process this, has to do more about like particular medium or the taste or the type of genre or something. [00:37:44] Jesse Schwamb: I'd encourage us to not get too caught up in that. I think what you're saying is really, really helpful. The idea here I think is more about embracing the fact that we don't have to be productive all the time. And that we don't have to be, and I use this with great love like puritanical in the sense that, you know, well, if Jonathan Edwards didn't laugh and the Lord sakes that was inappropriate, then I shouldn't either. [00:38:05] Jesse Schwamb: And by virtue of that fact, then I should really have this incredible puritanical work ethic where even when I'm at home or every second that I have, I should be reading something. And if I'm gonna read something, it should be productive. Or if I'm watch tv, it should be something kinda documentary. I need to learn and fill my mind and make use and redeem every second of that time. [00:38:18] Jesse Schwamb: What if part of that redemption. Is enjoying entertainment for the way that God intended it to be, and that when he makes beauty and creativity and artistic expression, and again, we're presuming that this is the right amount of a lawful entertainment, that all of those things are for their own enjoyment because they point back to the creator. [00:38:40] Jesse Schwamb: Just by themselves. Like there doesn't have to be an ulterior motive. You don't have to justify it. You don't even have to feel guilty about it. That in fact, because we're contingent beings and therefore we have limited energy supply and unlimited amount of time and space, that all those things com continue to propel us towards some kind of desire for a lawful entertainment that leads us into rest. [00:39:02] Jesse Schwamb: Even as you're saying Tony, if that's rest for 10 or 15 minutes before, it's the next thing to feel this compulsion instead. To have to again quote unquote redeem. That time by being super productive is I think a fool's errand because we are as much made to work as we are made to rest. And in that rest, I think sometimes we actually find for some of us an easier time identifying and worshiping God in that risk. [00:39:26] Jesse Schwamb: Because in our work, we are busy in our work and we often get caught up in our work thinking all of our work is all of us. And so we rest and we find enjoyment in something. We take a walk, we listen to a beautiful piece of music. We spend some times just conversing about nothing with friends. We sit outside and enjoy beverages together that something happens sometimes in that space. [00:39:46] Jesse Schwamb: We're in the pause of that in the fact that there is beauty that seemingly is without productive purpose, even though I'd argue there is one. It's just hidden behind it and we fail to see it. We are drawn to the fact drawn to say, God, are you not good? For all of your gifts. And of course he's good in our gifts of work. [00:40:02] Jesse Schwamb: He's also good in our, our gifts of rest. But he's given us this gift as a form of entertainment in our own pop culture for us really to enjoy. But you're right, if we get it twisted such that we consume too much of it, or if we misapply that, I think we're just gonna live a less abundant life. So again, like the task here is not, don't do any entertainment. [00:40:23] Jesse Schwamb: Get all, get away from all the entertainments. Like what? Like your point, Tony, I, and I've heard Christian say this, I think there can be a brow beating here where it's like, well, couldn't you have used that time more productive? Like they had a couple more minutes, like maybe you really should have prayed harder or. [00:40:38] Jesse Schwamb: Maybe you should have read that other chapter in the Bible. Maybe you should gone back through your genealogies again and read those because you know that you don't read those particularly well. Or maybe you should have studied this thing or that thing. And instead is there a kind of worship that truly gives itself over to resting in God in the form of appreciating entertainment as he's created it for us to give us that kind of rest? [00:40:59] Jesse Schwamb: I would say yes. It's just that we often don't talk about it and sometimes we do talk about it. It's hard to bring it up 'cause you're gonna. You're gonna feel guilty. Like, can you imagine somebody saying to you, you know what? I'm just finding so much rest these days in this, uh, little game on my phone that I get to play. [00:41:15] Jesse Schwamb: You would be like, you, you might, if you're, if you're like, you know that person, well, you might be like, that's weird. I guarantee though, if that happened to me, I'd walk away and then when I was with my wife later, I'd be like, let me tell you what this weird thing this person said. You know what I mean? [00:41:27] Jesse Schwamb: But what, what, yeah. We need to think more like that. Not as a liberty to forsake or abdicate responsibility, but instead to actually be well rested for the responsibility in the task, the good works that God has created for us. [00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:41:42] Personal Experiences with Entertainment [00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: And maybe here's like a concrete example is, um. You know, I, um, I work at a local hospital and my job is relatively intense. [00:41:53] Tony Arsenal: Um, in terms of emotional investment, I'm a patient relations supervisor, so I, I'm in charge of the department that hears all of the complaints from patients, which means we often hear some really frustrating stories about people's healthcare, and it can be very emotionally draining. And so I also, um, I also ride the bus home now. [00:42:15] Tony Arsenal: My, my vehicle is broken right now. Hopefully we're gonna get fixed soon, but I ride the bus home and for the first couple, I don't know, for the first week that I was riding the bus, I was like, I gotta use this time. I gotta read something. I gotta make sure I'm doing that right. And what I've learned actually is if I just take the 45 minutes that I'm on the bus and waiting for the bus and I just sort of zone out and play Pokemon Go. [00:42:39] Tony Arsenal: By the time I get home, I'm ready to engage with my kids better. I'm ready to engage with my wife better. I'm less likely to feel, uh, just drained and tired because I'm actually letting my brain sort of reset and I'm building that buffer. So something as simple as like. Playing a relatively mindless game on my phone for a half hour, 45 minutes while I ride the bus and wait for the bus, um, helps me to fulfill my obligations as a father and a husband in a more present way. [00:43:09] Tony Arsenal: Again, like if you wanna ride the bus and you wanna read a fiction, or you wanna do theology, like that's on you, that's your decision to make. But. I know people who would say to me, um, you really should be using that time for something more productive than playing Pokemon Go. And, and yeah, maybe like, maybe there are times that I should be more productive and maybe there are times that other people should be less productive. [00:43:32] Tony Arsenal: Like I think that's kind of what we're getting at here is. Productivity or spiritual growth or pi, like those categories are, each of those are good categories. Like productivity is not a bad thing. Um, personal devotion is certainly not a bad thing. [00:43:47] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:43:47] Tony Arsenal: But it's not the only thing. And we also, I think we act as though our lives can be this sort of like perfect integrated balance when really like we have to be able to sort of recognize that. [00:44:02] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes doing nothing has its own utility. Like that feels like a weird thing to say, but I I, I'm with you here and, and maybe this is kind of how we bring the episode down to an end is I do think. There is this, obviously the Sabbath principle, the rest principle. Um, but God also gives us rest in these other small ways. [00:44:25] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes not so small, but small ways in the rest of our life. And I don't think that we should bear any shame or guilt or feel like we're less Christian because we take advantage of or make use of those. Those sort of like smaller opportunities to rest and you know, recreation is recreation. Like that's, that's that etymology is not a false etymology. [00:44:49] Tony Arsenal: That's where the word comes from. And it's because we often need to do these sort of leisurely things in order to be able to then go back and put forward the effort that we need. And the other thing just, I feel like we're tying. Leisure to the ability to produce in a way that may actually also be unhealthy. [00:45:09] Tony Arsenal: Leisure is not necessarily the ends, the means to being able to be productive. Right? Leisure serves its own purpose. It has its own use, its own way to glorify God. Yes, it does enable us often to be able to come back and put our nose to the grindstone, but we shouldn't just think about it as like, well, this is just, this is just my recharge period. [00:45:30] Tony Arsenal: We don't think about sleep that way. I don't think we think about sleep in, in a fashion of saying like, well, I've gotta sleep so that I can just get up and go to work the next day. And productive. I think we recognize that our bodies need to rest and there's a blessing and a joy in being able to close our eyes and sort of drift off and have dreams and rest, and that our body recuperates itself, I think we should think of leisure in a similar sense, and recreation and pop culture all kind of play into that. [00:45:53] Jesse Schwamb: I think that's right on. I mean, it's one of those things where we're certainly not saying that there isn't rest in prayer and in daily worship and consuming and studying the scriptures, there's certainly a rest in all those activities too. In some ways, I think we're presuming that we are trying to incorporate a balance into our lives, and that part of that balance is just rest for its own sake. [00:46:12] Jesse Schwamb: The enjoyment of that and when you're truly, I think, enjoying that rest, whatever it is, one we do not long feel guilty because we have processed. And pass everything to the sve of the scriptures and say, this is glorifying to God is for my goodness, for his glory. So therefore there's no, as it were like condemnation for me in this because I have a clear conscience about it. [00:46:31] Jesse Schwamb: And then in addition to that, it does provide us with perhaps, again, that lovely contrast between working hard and then having. Some period of which we are abstaining from that work and from that labor. And in so doing we find different ways to please and to worship God. We find that we see his character reflected in different ways. [00:46:49] Jesse Schwamb: And so in that way too, it reminds us that we are, like I said before, like completely contingent, we get tired, we get exhausted. Like there's only so much the mind can do and so much it can handle. And so by. Willingly accepting and leaning into that, not again, in a way that takes us away. We use as liberty to say, well, I, you know, I really should spend some time before the Lord in prayer. [00:47:10] Jesse Schwamb: I really should spend some time in, in daily particular worship, but you know what? I really need to rest instead. Like of, of course, that itself, we should be convicted about, uh, because then we're using entertainment such a way to distract us. Suppose this. Way from God rather than toward him. But the Bible is so clear, like you're saying, Tony, that there's all these seasons in life and the more I think about those seasons, the more I wonder if we tend to treat them too discreetly. [00:47:34] Jesse Schwamb: And in these two, like, kind of like prolonged periods, what if a season is for an hour? What if a season is for a day? What if a season is for five minutes? So famously, of course, when we have the teacher writing. Ecclesiastes chapter three, some of these famous words, I think we just fail to take them to heart. [00:47:51] Jesse Schwamb: Listen to this beautiful contrast, and I think it really fits in with what we're saying here about the, the ability to rightly consume entertainment and pop culture in such a way that it is glorifying to God and our understanding of it in our application of how it gives us true rest. So it writes things like this. [00:48:09] Jesse Schwamb: There's a time to kill and the time to heal. A time to break down, a time to build up, a time to weep, and a time to laugh, A time to mourn and a time to dance. A time to cast away stones and a time to gather stones together. A time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing a time to seek and a time to lose. [00:48:26] Jesse Schwamb: A time to keep, and a time to cast away. A time to tear. A time to sow, a time to keep silence and a time to speak, a time to love, and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. So it's very clear that God has given us, I think all of these wonderful things to enjoy as part of his character, as demonstrations of the fact that he is a God who is loving and love always leads to giving. [00:48:51] Jesse Schwamb: And so he gives us beauty in arts. In music, in literature, in screen, and of course then we should recognize because those are things from God and we ought to that. Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Heavenly Father who is above that. It is the prerogative of the devil to twist and bend those things in such a way that we feel to see them as God's gifts and said, see them as our rightful consumption. [00:49:12] Jesse Schwamb: Such a way that enslaves. Changes our mindset, pulls us farther away from God. So I think part of it's just going into everything with the pun intended, with eyes wide open. So hopefully some of these tests have been helpful. I think people probably have, because like you said, Tony, there's a lot of Christian liberty here and maybe some point. [00:49:29] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I was gonna ask you like what's I, I'm not gonna ask you this because I know you're gonna ask it back to me, but like what would be maybe something you consume that others might be able. Ooh. Um, but I don't want you to ask that back to me. We could do that. We could do that if you want to. [00:49:42] Tony Arsenal: Um, yeah, let's, let's do that in a future episode. [00:49:43] Tony Arsenal: I think that'd be fun. Well, we'll [00:49:44] Jesse Schwamb: save that for another time. So everybody keeps listening. [00:49:46] Encouraging Community Engagement [00:49:46] Jesse Schwamb: But I think one of the things that we should be encouraging our listeners to do, the people who are part of the reform brotherhoodhood, is come hang out online. In this place called Telegram, which is just a chat messaging app and we have a little corner, a protected corner of the world. [00:50:00] Jesse Schwamb: There is a group of people who are like-minded listening to our conversations and participating in their own. And the way they participate with us is you can message in the app, they've got a bunch of channels of different topics, so you can get there by going to t.me/reform brotherhood. I bring this up now, not just to advertise as usual. [00:50:17] Jesse Schwamb: Because we want you to come be a part of this, but I would love to hear from others because we have a channel in there that's just about the conversations we're having on the podcast. Come share some of the practical things that you use, the tests that you have, the conversations that you bring forward to help you discern what kind of pop culture you're consuming. [00:50:37] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Don't just take our word for it. Let's hear what the Holy Spirit. How he is leadi

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb take a deep dive into the power and importance of personal testimonies. Starting with their own faith journeys, they share how God's providence and grace have shaped their lives, from childhood faith to adulthood. Tony reflects on his conversion as a teenager and the profound changes that followed, while Jesse recounts the blessing of knowing Jesus from a young age and the role his parents played in nurturing his faith. Together, they explore the beauty of God's work in every stage of life, emphasizing that all testimonies, no matter how different, point to the same faithful God. The conversation highlights the transformational nature of faith and the importance of remembering and sharing how God has worked in life. Tony and Jesse encourage listeners to reflect on their own journeys and to share their stories of grace with others. They emphasize that testimonies are not the gospel itself but are powerful tools for pointing people to the gospel and encouraging others in their faith. The hosts also discuss the significance of ministering to children and cultivating childlike faith. They reflect on how simple faith can lead to profound spiritual truths and encourage parents, teachers, and those in children's ministry to continue planting seeds of the gospel. The episode serves as a reminder to remember God's faithfulness, share testimonies with others, and celebrate the unique ways God works in each of our lives. Key Points: The Power of Testimonies: Sharing personal stories of faith helps encourage others and highlights God's providence and grace in our lives. Childlike Faith: The importance of nurturing faith in children and the beauty of their simple yet profound trust in God. God's Providence: Reflecting on how God's hand guides us through life, even in ways we may not realize until we look back. Remembering and Sharing: Testimonies are not the gospel itself, but they are valuable tools for pointing others to Christ and reminding ourselves of God's faithfulness. Encouraging Faith Conversations: The hosts challenge listeners to share their testimonies with others and reflect on what God is currently doing in their lives. Questions for Reflection: How has God's providence been evident in your life when you look back on your faith journey? What role have others played in nurturing your faith, and how can you encourage others in their walk with Christ? When was the last time you shared your testimony with someone? What impact did it have? How can you cultivate a childlike faith and sense of wonder in your relationship with God? What is one way you can minister to children or younger believers to help them grow in their faith?

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb takes listeners on a deep theological journey into the distinction between law and gospel. Drawing from Martin Luther's theological insights, Jesse explores how these two words from God—the law and the gospel—reveal His righteousness and intersect with Christian living. He reflects on the ways the law exposes sin and reveals the justice of God, while the gospel offers the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. This timely discussion emphasizes the importance of understanding how God's law and gospel work in harmony to declare His glory and transform lives. Jesse unpacks the theology of the cross versus the theology of glory, highlighting how the gospel is scandalously counterintuitive, displaying God's power through weakness and Christ's ultimate act of obedience—His death on the cross. Through thought-provoking metaphors and personal reflections, he illustrates how the law's demands drive us to despair but ultimately point us to the gospel, where we find redemption and freedom in Christ. The episode also delves into the transformative power of the gospel, contrasting it with the law's inability to save. Jesse encourages listeners to consider how the gospel empowers obedience, not as a means of earning righteousness, but as a response to the righteousness imputed to us by Christ. This episode is rich in theological depth and practical application, providing a framework for understanding God's justice, mercy, and love.

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony dive deep into Martin Luther's contrasting theological concepts: the Theology of Glory and the Theology of the Cross. Beginning with a reflection on how the Theology of Glory prioritizes human strength, reason, and achievement, they explore how this perspective can mislead Christians into seeking God through displays of power and visible success. Instead, they emphasize that Luther's Theology of the Cross reveals God's power most profoundly in weakness, suffering, and humility. The conversation highlights how the Theology of Glory often leads to arrogance, misplaced priorities, and a misunderstanding of God's nature and work in the world. Drawing from Scripture, the hosts demonstrate how the Gospel flips the world's values upside down, showing that true Christian power lies in self-sacrifice, service, and dependence on Christ. They also discuss contemporary examples of how the Theology of Glory manifests in modern Christian movements, including megachurch culture, prosperity theology, and even personal pride within small church leadership. Jesse and Tony challenge listeners to examine their own lives and ministries in light of the Theology of the Cross. They encourage believers to adopt an attitude of humility, servanthood, and dependence on God's grace, rather than striving for worldly success or recognition. This episode is a timely reminder that the Christian life is not about glory as the world defines it, but about finding strength in weakness and victory in the cross of Christ. Key Points: Theology of Glory vs. Theology of the Cross: Luther's framework contrasts human-centered religion, which seeks God in power and success, with the Gospel's revelation of God through weakness and suffering. Modern Examples of the Theology of Glory: Prosperity theology, megachurch culture, and some expressions of Christian nationalism illustrate how this mindset persists today. The Power of Humility and Weakness: The Theology of the Cross calls Christians to embrace servanthood and suffering as reflections of Christ's work on the cross. Scriptural Foundations: The hosts reference key Scriptures, such as Philippians 2 and Luke 10, to show how God's kingdom operates differently from human expectations. Practical Applications: Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own lives and avoid the pitfalls of pride and self-reliance, instead embracing a Christ-centered approach to faith and ministry. Questions for Reflection: How does the Theology of Glory manifest in your own life or church context? In what ways does the Theology of the Cross challenge your understanding of power and success? How can you cultivate humility and servanthood in your daily walk with Christ? Are there areas in your life where you tend to rely on human wisdom or strength instead of God's grace? How does understanding God's power in weakness bring comfort and transformation to your faith? Citations: John Calvin, Commentary on the Gospel According to John, trans. William Pringle, vol. 1 (Bellingham: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 1:329–330.

In this episode of Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into Martin Luther's concept of the Theology of the Cross, a foundational idea in Reformation theology. Rooted in the Heidelberg Disputation of 1518, this theological framework challenges believers to see God's power and purpose in human suffering and weakness. The hosts explore how the cross is the ultimate revelation of God's nature, subverting traditional human expectations of power and glory. The discussion highlights the stark contrast between the Theology of the Cross and what Luther termed the Theology of Glory. The former calls Christians to understand God's work through suffering and apparent defeat, as exemplified in Christ's crucifixion. Jesse and Tony argue that this paradigm is not only essential for understanding the gospel but also deeply relevant to the modern Christian experience, especially in a culture increasingly drawn to triumphalism and worldly notions of success. This episode is a call to reflect on how suffering shapes the Christian life. The hosts explore how trials and hardships are not merely obstacles but divinely ordained means of sanctification. They underscore the importance of embracing weakness as a pathway to experiencing God's strength and grace, offering both theological depth and practical encouragement for listeners facing difficulties. Key Points: The Theology of the Cross Explained: Luther's concept emphasizes that God's power is revealed through weakness, and His blessings often come disguised as suffering. The cross is central to understanding this paradoxical truth. Relevance for Modern Christians: The episode critiques contemporary triumphalism and discusses how cultural notions of power and success can distort biblical theology. The Theology of the Cross serves as a corrective, calling believers to embrace humility and dependence on God. Suffering as a Means of Sanctification: Jesse and Tony explore how trials are not signs of God's absence but opportunities for spiritual growth and deeper communion with Christ, who himself suffered for humanity. Luther's Historical Context: The discussion provides background on the Heidelberg Disputation and how it laid the groundwork for Protestant theology, emphasizing the importance of distinguishing between human merit and divine grace. Questions for Reflection: How does the Theology of the Cross challenge your understanding of God's power and blessings? In what ways have you seen God use suffering in your life to draw you closer to Him? How can Christians balance engagement with cultural and political movements while maintaining a biblical perspective on weakness and humility? What practical steps can you take to embrace suffering as a means of sanctification without minimizing its difficulty?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the crucial Christian discipline of self-examination. Grounding their discussion in Scriptures like Psalm 139:23-24 and 2 Corinthians 13:5, they explore what it means to test and examine oneself in the faith. They emphasize that self-examination is not about undermining assurance but rather about deepening a believer's trust in Christ while fostering spiritual growth and humility. The conversation highlights the necessity of prayer as the starting point for self-examination. Jesse and Tony remind listeners that asking God to search and reveal the state of one's heart is an act of worship and dependence. They also discuss the difference between examining oneself scholastically (assessing knowledge of the faith) and testing oneself by comparing one's life against the standard of Christ. Both are vital to a vibrant and gospel-centered Christian life. Listeners are encouraged to embrace self-examination as a regular and joyful practice that leads to assurance and maturity in Christ. Far from being an exercise in despair, self-examination is presented as a means to greater dependence on the finished work of Christ and a deeper appreciation of the Holy Spirit's role in illuminating sin and pointing believers to their Savior. Key Points: The Biblical Call to Self-Examination The discussion begins with an exploration of Psalm 139 and 2 Corinthians 13:5, where Scripture commands believers to examine their hearts and test their faith. This practice is necessary for spiritual growth and assurance in Christ. Self-Examination as a Spiritual Discipline Jesse and Tony underscore the importance of self-examination as a regular practice, not just for addressing sin but also for recognizing God's work in one's life. They emphasize starting this process with prayer, asking God to reveal both sin and righteousness. The Role of the Holy Spirit in Self-Examination The Holy Spirit plays a vital role in guiding believers through the process of self-examination. He convicts of sin, assures of righteousness, and leads believers to deeper dependence on Christ. Balancing Conviction and Assurance The hosts caution against the danger of turning self-examination into morbid introspection. Instead, they encourage listeners to see it as a hopeful practice that strengthens faith and magnifies Christ's finished work. Questions for Reflection: How often do you take time to examine your heart and motives before God? What role does prayer play in your self-examination process? Are there areas in your life where you see Christ working but haven't taken time to reflect on and thank Him for? How can you balance conviction of sin with assurance in Christ during self-reflection? What Scriptures encourage you to test and examine your faith?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the topic of demons and spiritual warfare, exploring what the Bible teaches about these spiritual entities and their activity in the world. The conversation begins with an examination of Job 1, where Satan appears in the heavenly court to accuse Job, demonstrating how God's sovereignty encompasses even the actions of the devil and his demons. The discussion emphasizes that while demons are real and dangerous, they operate under the ultimate authority of God, who uses even their actions to fulfill His purposes. The hosts also discuss the role of Christ's death and resurrection in fundamentally altering the influence and power of Satan and his demons. Drawing from Revelation 20, they explain how Christ's victory has “bound” Satan, limiting his ability to deceive the nations and opening the way for the Gospel to spread to all people. This pivotal event in redemptive history marks a shift in the spiritual realm, giving Christians the confidence to stand firm against spiritual opposition, knowing that the ultimate victory has already been won in Christ. Additionally, Jesse and Tony reflect on various Biblical accounts of demonic activity, such as the demoniac at Gennesaret and the failed exorcism by the seven sons of Sceva in Acts 19. These stories highlight the power of Jesus' name, the reality of spiritual warfare, and the dangers of invoking Christ's authority without true faith. The episode concludes with a call to Christians to prepare for spiritual battles through Scripture, prayer, and reliance on the power of Christ. Key Points: The Sovereignty of God Over Demons: The story of Job reveals that even Satan's actions are under God's control, serving His divine purposes. The Binding of Satan: Revelation 20 teaches that Christ's death and resurrection have limited Satan's ability to deceive the nations, enabling the spread of the Gospel. Biblical Accounts of Demonic Activity: Stories like the demoniac at Gennesaret and the seven sons of Sceva illustrate the power and authority of Christ over demons. Practical Lessons for Christians: Believers are called to stand firm in faith, armed with Scripture, and confident in Christ's ultimate victory over evil forces. Questions for Reflection: How does Job 1 demonstrate God's sovereignty over Satan and his actions? What does Revelation 20 teach us about the impact of Christ's resurrection on Satan's power? Why is it important for Christians to rely on true faith and not superficial invocations of Jesus' name in spiritual battles? How can Biblical accounts of demonic activity help us better understand the nature of spiritual warfare today? What practical steps can Christians take to prepare for spiritual opposition?

In this episode of Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal tackle the often-overlooked topic of spiritual warfare, focusing on the biblical truths about angels and demons. The discussion begins by affirming the reality of Satan and his demons as active agents in the world, working to oppose God and deceive humanity. Drawing from both Scripture and personal experiences, the hosts emphasize the importance of being aware of the spiritual battles that Christians face daily and how these confrontations are a central part of our spiritual journey. The conversation highlights the need for a balanced approach to understanding demonic activity—avoiding both sensationalism and denial. Jesse and Tony explore the biblical descriptions of angels and demons, noting their similarities and differences while pointing out the limitations of demonic power under God's sovereignty. They also discuss how demons often operate through deception, appearing in forms meant to confuse or distract, and how believers can recognize and resist these schemes. This episode encourages Christians to take spiritual warfare seriously by relying on the supremacy of Christ, equipping themselves with the armor of God, and remaining vigilant against the enemy's tactics. Whether you're new to the concept of spiritual warfare or looking to deepen your understanding, this conversation offers practical insights and theological depth to help you stay rooted in faith. Key Points: The Reality of Spiritual Warfare: Satan and demons are real, active forces working to oppose God and deceive humanity. Christians must take this reality seriously while remaining grounded in Christ's supremacy. Biblical Perspective on Angels and Demons: Angels and demons share the same origin as created beings, but their purposes and moral alignments differ significantly. Demons often use deception to lead people astray. Practical Steps for Spiritual Readiness: Christians are called to be vigilant, equipping themselves with the armor of God and staying rooted in Scripture to recognize and combat demonic influence. Questions for Reflection: How does understanding the biblical reality of angels and demons change the way you view spiritual warfare? What steps can you take to better equip yourself for spiritual battles in your daily life? In what ways can the church help believers remain aware of and prepared for the reality of spiritual warfare?

In this engaging episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal dive into the rich theological and practical significance of the Sabbath in Reformed theology. They begin by discussing the dual aspects of the Sabbath as a creation ordinance and a ceremonial practice, explaining how it is both a moral obligation for all humanity and a type that pointed forward to Christ's redemptive work. The hosts emphasize that the Sabbath is a blessing, not a burden, designed for rest, worship, and spiritual renewal. The conversation explores how the Sabbath transitions from the seventh day in the Old Testament to the first day, the Lord's Day, in the New Testament. This shift highlights its fulfillment in Christ's resurrection, which establishes a new rhythm of worship and rest for Christians. The hosts also tackle the complex issue of Sabbath observance in persecuted regions, addressing how believers might navigate the challenges of gathering for worship in secrecy or under threat. Throughout the episode, Jesse and Tony reflect on why the Sabbath remains vital in the Christian life. They emphasize that while Christ is our ultimate rest, the weekly observance of the Lord's Day continues to foster spiritual growth, communal worship, and reliance on God's provision. The discussion is punctuated with practical insights, theological clarity, and a pastoral heart for the global church. Key Points: The Sabbath as a Creation Ordinance: The Sabbath was established at creation as a perpetual moral obligation for all humanity, commemorating God's work in creation and providing a rhythm of rest and worship. The Sabbath's Fulfillment in Christ: As a ceremonial law, the Sabbath pointed forward to Christ's redemptive work, which fulfills the deeper rest and reconciliation it symbolizes. The Transition to the Lord's Day: Following Christ's resurrection, the Sabbath shifted to the first day of the week, reflecting the new creation in Christ and the church's ongoing commitment to gather and worship. Sabbath Observance in Persecuted Regions: The hosts thoughtfully consider how Christians in areas of persecution might navigate the challenges of gathering for worship, emphasizing the importance of wisdom, humility, and reliance on God's providence. The Sabbath as a Blessing, Not a Burden: The weekly observance of the Lord's Day is an opportunity for spiritual renewal, worship, and rest, reminding believers to trust in God's provision and fully rest in Christ. Questions for Reflection: Why is the Sabbath considered a moral obligation for all humanity, and how does it reflect God's character? How does the shift from the seventh day to the first day (the Lord's Day) enhance our understanding of Christ's work in redemption? In what ways can Christians balance rest and worship on the Sabbath to experience its full blessing? How should Christians in persecuted regions approach Sabbath observance while navigating safety concerns? What practical steps can you take to make the Sabbath a meaningful day of rest and worship in your life?

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal takes listeners on a deep dive into the art and purpose of effective note-taking, particularly within the context of Christian living and theological study. With Jesse absent for this episode, Tony explores practical techniques to help Christians retain, process, and apply what they read, whether it be from Scripture, theological works, or even secular writings. Highlighting his own personal process, Tony emphasizes the importance of reading with intention and grounding all study in the ultimate goal of glorifying God and enjoying Him forever. The episode details Tony's structured note-taking process, which includes reading with a clear purpose, capturing highlights, organizing thoughts systematically, and reviewing and reusing notes for practical outcomes. He emphasizes the importance of using tools that work for the individual, whether digital platforms like Obsidian markdown or analog methods like commonplace books. The central theme throughout is that note-taking is not just about acquiring knowledge, but about using that knowledge to reflect God's glory in everyday life. Tony also ties the practice of note-taking to theological principles, referencing the Westminster Catechism's teaching that every action should aim to glorify God. He challenges listeners to examine their own study habits and consider how they can better use what they learn to serve their families, churches, and communities. Whether through teaching Sunday school, sharing the faith with children, or preparing sermons, the episode demonstrates how intentional note-taking can enhance spiritual growth and equip believers for ministry. Key Points: The Purpose of Note-Taking: Note-taking is not an end in itself but a means to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. It helps Christians reflect on and apply what they learn in practical ways. Tony's Note-Taking Process: A step-by-step guide that includes reading with intention, highlighting key insights, organizing notes with tags, and reviewing them regularly for reuse. Tools and Techniques: Recommendations for using tools like Obsidian markdown or analog methods, emphasizing flexibility and personalization in developing a system that works. Practical Applications: The importance of using notes for teaching, sermon preparation, family devotions, and theological discussions, making knowledge actionable and impactful. Theological Foundations: Connecting note-taking to the broader Christian life, including meditating on Scripture and theological works as a means of sanctification. Questions for Reflection: How does your current note-taking process help you retain and apply what you read? In what ways can you ensure that your study habits glorify God and enhance your enjoyment of Him? What tools or methods could you adopt to make your note-taking more effective and organized? How can you use what you learn to serve your church, family, or community more effectively? What intentions or goals should you set before starting your next reading or study session?

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony explore Paul's letter to Philemon, unpacking its rich theological and practical implications. At the heart of the discussion is Paul's appeal for Onesimus, a runaway slave who has become a Christian. Paul's letter serves as a vivid demonstration of how the gospel transforms relationships, highlighting the themes of forgiveness, restitution, and reconciliation. The hosts reflect on the radical nature of grace, which not only calls for the restoration of broken relationships but also compels believers to go above and beyond in their love and service to one another. Jesse and Tony dive into the profound theological principles embedded in Paul's words, including substitutionary atonement and the unity of believers in Christ. They explore how Paul's appeal models the gospel itself, showcasing Christ's substitution on behalf of sinners. The letter is not just a personal plea but also a public call to let the grace of Christ reshape every aspect of Christian conduct and community. This episode challenges listeners to consider how their own relationships and interactions reflect the gospel's transformative power. The discussion also touches on practical applications of Christian unity, such as church membership and the unique bonds between believers. The hosts examine what it means to live out the radical call to Christian fellowship in everyday life, from supporting fellow believers in times of need to fostering harmony in the church. With humor, depth, and compelling insights, this episode encourages listeners to embrace the scandalously generous grace of God in all their relationships. Key Points: Paul's Letter to Philemon as a Model of Gospel Transformation Paul's appeal for Onesimus reflects key gospel principles such as forgiveness, reconciliation, and substitution, illustrating how the gospel reshapes relationships and communities. The Radical Unity of Believers The episode highlights the unity of Christians as a reflection of the unity found in the Trinity. This unity has profound implications for how believers treat one another in both personal and public spheres. Restitution and Responsibility in Christian Conduct Jesse and Tony discuss Paul's emphasis on restitution, noting that conversion does not erase past wrongs but increases the believer's responsibility to make things right in light of the gospel. Practical Implications of Christian Fellowship The hosts explore how the biblical call to Christian unity should impact relationships in various contexts, including church membership, workplace dynamics, and neighborly interactions. The Scandal of Grace Grace is presented as a radical and scandalous force that calls believers to love, forgive, and restore relationships in ways that mirror Christ's love for His people. Questions for Reflection: How does Paul's appeal for Onesimus challenge your understanding of forgiveness and restitution? In what ways can you reflect the unity of believers in your relationships with fellow Christians? How does the concept of substitutionary atonement impact the way you view your responsibilities toward others? Are there areas in your life where you struggle to extend grace or reconciliation to others? How can your involvement in your local church reflect the radical unity and love described in Paul's letter to Philemon?

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal delve into the letter of Philemon, focusing on the transformative power of the gospel in relationships. They examine Paul's heartfelt appeal to Philemon on behalf of Onesimus, a slave who has become a believer and is now returning as a brother in Christ. The discussion reflects on the profound theological implications of forgiveness, reconciliation, and Christian unity, as well as the way the gospel subverts societal roles while upholding spiritual kinship. Jesse and Tony explore the delicate yet powerful language Paul employs in his letter, highlighting how he appeals to Philemon's faith and love to guide his actions. Paul's request challenges Philemon to see Onesimus not just as a slave but as a beloved brother, emphasizing the radical equality that the gospel brings to all believers. The hosts unpack the layered dynamics of this relationship, showing how it serves as a practical application of the theology outlined in Colossians. The conversation also touches on the broader implications of living out the gospel in everyday relationships. Through Paul's example, believers are encouraged to prioritize love, forgiveness, and humility, embodying the transformative work of Christ in their interactions with others. This episode offers rich insights into how theology intersects with daily life, challenging listeners to reflect on their own relationships in light of the gospel. Key Points: Paul's appeal to Philemon demonstrates a balance between authority and love, showcasing how Christian leaders can guide others in faith. The gospel transforms relationships, breaking down societal barriers and emphasizing spiritual equality among believers. Forgiveness and reconciliation are central themes, as Paul challenges Philemon to welcome Onesimus back not as a slave but as a beloved brother in Christ. Questions for Reflection: How does the gospel challenge societal roles and transform relationships in your life? What can we learn from Paul's approach to addressing sensitive and difficult situations with love and tact? How does recognizing the spiritual equality of all believers impact your interactions within the church and beyond?

In this episode, Jesse and Tony dive into the letter of Philemon, exploring its rich themes of forgiveness, reconciliation, and Christian unity. As a follow-up to their study of Colossians, this episode highlights how the gospel transforms relationships and challenges believers to live out their faith in practical ways. Paul's appeal to Philemon serves as a powerful example of applying theology to real-life situations, emphasizing the importance of love and mutual partnership in faith. The discussion unpacks Paul's unique rhetorical approach in addressing Philemon. Instead of commanding him, Paul appeals to him out of love, trusting in his faith and Christian maturity to guide his response to Onesimus, a former slave. Jesse and Tony also reflect on the deeper implications of Christian fellowship, or "koinonia," as a bond that transcends social and cultural divisions, uniting believers in Christ. The episode challenges listeners to consider how they live out the gospel in their own relationships and communities. By highlighting the practical application of Paul's teachings, Jesse and Tony encourage believers to reflect on their own love, unity, and willingness to forgive and reconcile. Key Points: The Fellowship of Faith: Paul emphasizes the shared bond of faith, or "koinonia," between himself, Philemon, and Onesimus, which serves as the foundation for his appeal. Paul's Rhetorical Approach: Rather than commanding Philemon, Paul appeals to him for love's sake, trusting his Christian character and maturity to guide his response. Living Out the Gospel: The letter challenges believers to reflect on how they demonstrate forgiveness, reconciliation, and unity within their own relationships and communities. Questions for Reflection: How does the concept of "koinonia" challenge your understanding of Christian fellowship and community? In what ways can you practice forgiveness and reconciliation in your relationships, as Paul encourages Philemon to do? What does it mean to live out the gospel in practical ways within your own sphere of influence?

n this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony dive into the final verses of Colossians 4, reflecting on Paul's closing words and the rich theological and practical insights they offer. The discussion begins by addressing the significance of these often-overlooked sections of scripture, emphasizing their God-breathed purpose and the enduring lessons they provide for the church today. Paul's ministry partners, including Tychicus, Onesimus, and Luke, take center stage as Jesse and Tony explore how God uses ordinary people to accomplish extraordinary purposes in His kingdom. The conversation also highlights the theme of reconciliation, particularly through Onesimus' story, as Paul sends him back to Colossae, urging the church to embody the gospel by welcoming him with grace. This practical application of theology reminds listeners that the gospel transforms relationships and calls believers to live out Christlike love in their communities. Jesse and Tony also unpack the broader implications of Paul's instruction to share the letter with the Laodiceans, underscoring the importance of scripture's universal application across time and culture. As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the unity and encouragement found in Paul's words, reminding listeners of the value of every member of the body of Christ. They also prepare for their upcoming exploration of Philemon, which continues the story of Onesimus and offers further insight into living out faith in real-world situations. This episode is a rich blend of theology, practical wisdom, and encouragement for believers seeking to grow in their understanding of scripture and community. Key Points: The Significance of Paul's Final Words: Paul's closing remarks in Colossians 4, though seemingly mundane, reveal God's interest in the details of ministry and the importance of community within the church. God Uses Ordinary People: The episode highlights Paul's ministry partners, showing how God works through ordinary individuals like Tychicus, Onesimus, and Luke to advance His kingdom. Reconciliation in Action: The story of Onesimus demonstrates the transformative power of the gospel, as Paul encourages the Colossian church to welcome him back with grace and forgiveness. Universal Relevance of Scripture: Paul's instruction to share the letter with the Laodiceans emphasizes the broader application of scripture beyond its immediate audience, affirming its value for all believers. Practical Theology and Community: Jesse and Tony discuss the importance of living out theological truths in everyday life, particularly in fostering unity and encouragement within the church. Questions for Reflection: How does Paul's inclusion of specific names and details in his letters inspire you to see God's work in the “ordinary” aspects of ministry? What lessons can we learn from Onesimus' story about reconciliation and living out the gospel in challenging situations? How can we as believers ensure that our churches reflect the unity and diversity seen in Paul's ministry team? Why is it important to view scripture as universally applicable, and how does this perspective affect how we read and apply the Bible today? In what ways can you, like Paul's ministry partners, support and encourage others in your church or community?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony dive into Colossians 4:2–6, unpacking its rich themes of persistent prayer, evangelism, and the importance of gracious communication. They explore Paul's exhortation to the Colossian church, focusing on how prayer, wisdom, and speech are integral to a Christian's life and witness. The conversation emphasizes that prayer is not merely an action but a defining characteristic of the Christian life, reflecting the believer's intimacy with God and reliance on His grace. The hosts examine Paul's request for prayers that his proclamation of the gospel might be clear and effective, noting that clarity is essential in ensuring the message of Christ is understood fully by its hearers. They also discuss the relationship between wise conduct, gracious speech, and the ability to answer others with the truth of the gospel. The importance of integrating faith into everyday interactions is highlighted, particularly when engaging with non-believers in ways that reflect Christ's love and wisdom. The episode also delves into how Christians can faithfully live out their faith in a world of challenges, particularly on platforms like social media, where speech often lacks grace and wisdom. Jesse and Tony remind listeners of the high calling to let their words always be seasoned with salt, ensuring that every interaction serves as an opportunity to glorify God and share the gospel. Key Points: Persistent Prayer as a Lifeline: Christians are called to devote themselves to prayer, not just as an occasional act but as a continuous lifestyle that reflects intimacy with God. Clarity in Gospel Proclamation: Paul's request for prayer highlights the importance of presenting the gospel clearly and cogently, ensuring its full understanding by hearers. Gracious Speech and Wise Conduct: Walking in wisdom and letting speech be gracious and seasoned with salt are essential for effective evangelism and maintaining a Christian witness. Faith in Everyday Interactions: Integrating faith into daily life involves speaking and acting in ways that reflect Christ's love and wisdom, especially in challenging environments like social media. Questions for Reflection: How does your prayer life reflect your relationship with God, and in what ways can it become more consistent and intentional? In what areas of your life can you work to make your speech more gracious and seasoned with salt? How can you integrate faith into your daily interactions with non-believers in a way that reflects Christ's love and wisdom? Are there specific people or ministries you can commit to praying for, as Paul asks the Colossians to pray for him?

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb dives deep into the rich and challenging teachings of Colossians 3:18–4:1 on Christian household ethics. With Tony absent, Jesse takes the reins to explore the revolutionary and countercultural aspects of Paul's instructions to wives, husbands, children, and slaves. He emphasizes how these teachings, though often misunderstood or misapplied, are deeply rooted in the lordship of Christ and the call for submission, love, and service within the family structure. Jesse begins by highlighting the groundbreaking nature of Paul's acknowledgment of women, children, and slaves in a societal context where these groups often held little to no value. Paul's direct address to these groups affirms their inherent worth as image-bearers of God. Jesse also challenges listeners to see how Paul's instructions to men, particularly husbands and fathers, subvert the cultural norms of the time by calling them to love and serve their families sacrificially, rather than exercising dominance. The discussion extends to the broader implications of Paul's teaching, focusing on how Christ's lordship should permeate every aspect of family life. Jesse draws attention to the transformative power of living out these principles in modern Christian households, urging listeners to embrace submission and service not as burdens, but as acts of worship and reverence for Christ. Key Points: Paul's Revolutionary Address to Marginalized Groups: Paul affirms the value of women, children, and slaves by addressing them directly, which was unprecedented in the cultural context of the Roman Empire. The Call for Husbands to Love and Serve: Paul challenges traditional male authority by instructing husbands and fathers to lead with love and avoid harshness, reflecting Christ's sacrificial love. Christ-Centered Family Dynamics: All family relationships are to be oriented around Christ's lordship, emphasizing submission and service as acts of worship. The Surprising Ethics of Slavery: While acknowledging the existence of slavery in the Roman world, Paul subverts its norms by reminding masters of their accountability to their own Master in heaven. Questions for Reflection: How does Paul's affirmation of marginalized groups in Colossians challenge societal norms, both in his time and today? In what ways does the call for husbands to love their wives mirror Christ's love for the Church? How can we ensure that Christ remains at the center of our family relationships and everyday interactions? What does submission look like in a modern Christian household, and how can it reflect reverence for Christ?

n this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into Colossians 3:16–17, exploring the essential role of singing in Christian worship. They discuss how singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs is both a command and a spiritual discipline for believers, emphasizing its importance in teaching gospel truths and fostering mutual edification within the body of Christ. Singing is not merely an individual act of worship but a communal practice that unites the church in shared faith and gratitude. The hosts reflect on the transformative power of music in worship, emphasizing its role in shaping Christian character and relationships. They explore how singing serves as a means of mutual instruction, allowing believers to proclaim gospel truths to one another while glorifying God. Jesse and Tony also highlight the need for congregants, particularly men, to actively participate in worship through singing, modeling obedience and devotion for their families and fellow believers. Additionally, the conversation touches on how the act of singing transcends generational and cultural boundaries, bringing together believers of all ages and backgrounds. The hosts underscore the unique power of music to unite the church, deepen spiritual formation, and prepare hearts for eternal worship around the throne of God. Key Points: The Command to Sing Singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs is a biblical command for all believers, rooted in passages like Colossians 3:16–17 and Ephesians 5. This act of worship is not optional but central to the Christian life. Singing as Mutual Instruction Worship through singing serves as a means of teaching and admonishing one another in gospel truths. It is a communal act that fosters spiritual growth and unity among believers. The Role of Men in Worship Jesse and Tony discuss the importance of men leading by example in worship, particularly through singing, to encourage their families and the congregation to participate wholeheartedly. Music's Power to Unite and Transform Singing in worship transcends individual preferences and abilities, uniting believers of all ages and backgrounds in a shared expression of faith and gratitude to God. Practical Encouragement for Worship Participation The hosts encourage listeners to prioritize singing in both corporate worship and family settings, reminding them that even imperfect voices glorify God and edify the church. Questions for Reflection: How does your personal approach to singing in worship align with the biblical command to sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs? In what ways can congregational singing foster unity and mutual edification in your church? How can you encourage those around you, especially within your family, to participate in worship through singing? What steps can you take to incorporate doctrinally sound music into your daily life and family worship?

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony explore Colossians 3:18-4:1, diving deep into the transformative power of Christ in shaping Christian character and community. They discuss how the peace of Christ and the message of Christ should define the daily lives of believers, emphasizing the importance of embodying virtues such as compassion, kindness, humility, and patience. The hosts remind listeners that putting on Christ is not aspirational, but rather a reality that defines the Christian life, as believers grow into the character already granted to them through their union with Christ. The conversation moves into the practical implications of sanctification, particularly how it shapes relationships within the church and beyond. Jesse and Tony reflect on how Christians are called to handle conflict and disagreements in ways that are radically different from the world, focusing on forgiveness, love, and unity. They highlight the necessity of yielding to Christ's work in us and how this impacts our daily interactions with others, whether in the church, family, or workplace. The episode also touches on the communal responsibilities of believers, such as teaching and admonishing one another, and the role of worship in fostering unity and growth. The hosts discuss how musical worship, prayer, and scripture reading are all essential practices that both encourage and challenge believers to grow in Christlikeness. This practical and theological exploration offers listeners valuable insights into how to live out the gospel in community and reflect Christ's character in all areas of life. Key Points: The Transformative Power of Christ: The hosts explain how putting on Christ means embodying virtues like compassion, kindness, and humility, which are already part of a believer's identity in Christ. Sanctification and Relationships: Jesse and Tony discuss how sanctification impacts relationships, encouraging Christians to handle conflict with grace and forgiveness, reflecting the gospel in their behavior. The Role of Worship and Community: The importance of mutual teaching, admonishing, and worship within the church is emphasized as a way to build unity and grow in spiritual maturity. Questions for Reflection: How does understanding that Christian character is already ours in Christ shape the way we live and interact with others? In what ways can we handle conflict within the church or family in a manner that reflects the peace of Christ? How can worship, including the singing of psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, help us grow in unity and spiritual maturity? Recommended Resources: The Spirit of Prayer (Free eBook) - Download here

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb dives into Colossians 3:1-11, exploring the profound theological truths about our union with Christ and how it transforms our identity, behavior, and perspective. Jesse emphasizes the Apostle Paul's call for Christians to seek the things above, set their minds on heavenly matters, and put to death earthly desires. With Tony absent this week, Jesse unpacks the richness of this passage solo, offering practical insights and reflections on living a Christ-centered life. Jesse begins by discussing the "two addresses" believers inhabit: their earthly location and their heavenly citizenship in Christ. He highlights how our identity in Christ secures us in the heavenly realm, hidden with Christ in God, and how this truth should inform and shape our daily lives. Through Paul's words, Jesse emphasizes the tangible newness believers experience in Christ—new priorities, a new culture, and even a "new wardrobe," symbolizing our transformed life. The episode also touches on the practical implications of this passage, including putting to death sinful behaviors, embracing Christian community, and living with a heavenly-minded focus. Jesse encourages listeners to meditate on their identity in Christ, love their church family deeply, and live out the gospel transformation in every area of life. Key Points: Union with Christ and Heavenly Citizenship: Believers are hidden with Christ in God, granting them a secure and unshakable identity in the heavenly realm. The Call to Put Sin to Death: Paul lists specific sins to abandon, emphasizing the transformation that comes from being united with Christ and living out the gospel truth. Heavenly-Minded Living: Christians are encouraged to set their minds on things above, focusing on eternal treasures rather than temporary earthly desires. The Role of Christian Community: Jesse highlights the importance of the local church as a place where believers grow together, bear with one another, and display the unifying power of Christ. Questions for Reflection: How does the reality of being "hidden with Christ in God" shape your daily perspective and priorities? What earthly desires or behaviors do you need to "put to death" in light of your identity in Christ? How can you better love and serve your local church community as an expression of your union with Christ? In what ways can you focus more on heavenly treasures and less on earthly concerns?

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony explore Colossians 2:13-23, focusing on the sufficiency of Christ and the freedom believers have in Him. The conversation begins with a discussion on the legalistic practices that Paul warns against, such as strict food regulations, festivals, and other ceremonial laws, which are described as shadows pointing to the true substance—Jesus Christ. The hosts emphasize that Christ's work on the cross has fulfilled all these requirements, liberating believers from the constraints of legalism and empty religious rituals. The episode addresses the deeper theological implications of being “dead to the world with Christ.” This union with Christ means believers are no longer bound by man-made regulations or ascetic practices that offer no real value in battling sin or promoting true spiritual growth. Instead, believers are called to hold fast to Christ, the source of all spiritual nourishment and growth. The hosts also caution against the dangers of being disqualified by falling into legalistic or mystical practices, which disconnect believers from the sufficiency of Christ. Wrapping up, Jesse and Tony highlight the liberating power of the Gospel, stressing that true Christian freedom is found in living in accordance with God's moral law, not as a means of earning salvation, but as a joyful response to the grace and love of Christ. This episode is a call to reject legalism and embrace the freedom and sufficiency that comes through union with Christ. Key Points: The Shadows of the Old Testament Point to Christ: The Old Testament ceremonial laws, such as dietary restrictions, festivals, and Sabbaths, were shadows that anticipated Christ. With His coming, these shadows are fulfilled in the substance of Jesus. Union with Christ Brings Freedom: Being united with Christ means believers are no longer subject to legalistic or ascetic practices, as they are dead to the elemental spirits of the world and alive in Christ. The Dangers of Legalism and Empty Rituals: Legalism and man-made religious practices cannot bring about true spiritual growth or victory over sin. Instead, they risk disconnecting believers from the sufficiency of Christ. True Christian Freedom and Obedience: Freedom in Christ is not a license for self-indulgence but an invitation to live joyfully within God's moral law, empowered by His grace. Questions for Reflection: How does understanding Christ as the substance of the Old Testament shadows change the way you view the ceremonial laws? In what ways have you seen legalistic or ascetic practices fail to promote true spiritual growth in your life or in others? How can you hold fast to Christ as the source of spiritual nourishment in a world full of distractions and false teachings? What does true Christian freedom look like in your daily life, and how does it differ from a life constrained by legalism?

  n this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony explore Colossians 2:11-15, a passage rich with theological truth about our spiritual transformation in Christ. The discussion begins by examining the concept of spiritual circumcision, not performed by human hands, but accomplished by Christ Himself. This circumcision represents the cutting away of our sinful nature, symbolizing the inward renewal that comes through faith in Jesus. The hosts emphasize how this spiritual reality is tied to the Old Testament covenant sign of circumcision, demonstrating its fulfillment in Christ. The conversation moves into the significance of being buried and raised with Christ through baptism. Jesse and Tony unpack how baptism mirrors our union with Christ in His death and resurrection. They highlight how our record of debt, symbolizing the guilt and penalty of sin, has been canceled and nailed to the cross. This powerful imagery reminds listeners of the sufficiency of Christ's work on their behalf and the assurance of forgiveness and new life in Him. Finally, the brothers reflect on the triumph of Christ over sin, death, and the rulers and authorities that stood opposed to Him. They discuss the implications of being made alive in Christ, not only for our future hope of bodily resurrection but for our present reality as those who are spiritually raised and seated with Him in the heavenly places. This episode challenges listeners to rest in the sufficiency of Christ and to reject any theology that adds to His completed work. Key Points: Spiritual Circumcision in Christ: Jesus performs a circumcision not made with human hands, cutting off our sinful nature and bringing about inward renewal. Buried and Raised with Christ: Baptism symbolizes our union with Christ in His death and resurrection, demonstrating our forgiveness and new life through His work. Canceling the Record of Debt: The guilt and penalty of sin are removed as Christ nails the record of our debt to the cross, securing our justification. Triumph Over Sin and Death: Christ disarms rulers and authorities, demonstrating His victory over all powers that stood against Him and His people. Union with Christ: Believers are spiritually raised with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places, reflecting a present and eternal reality. Questions for Reflection: How does the concept of spiritual circumcision deepen your understanding of God's work in your life? In what ways does baptism symbolize your union with Christ in His death and resurrection? What does the phrase “canceling the record of debt” mean to you, and how does it influence your view of forgiveness? How does Christ's triumph over rulers and authorities encourage you in your daily walk of faith? What does it mean to you that you are already spiritually raised and seated with Christ in the heavenly places?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse dive into Colossians 2:6-10, exploring the profound truths of walking in Christ and being rooted in His sufficiency. They unpack the significance of receiving Christ as Lord, emphasizing the importance of living a life grounded in faith and gratitude. The episode highlights the contrast between the fullness of Christ and the emptiness of worldly philosophies, warning listeners to guard against being taken captive by human traditions and false teachings. The discussion emphasizes how Christ is the ultimate authority, with the fullness of deity dwelling in Him bodily. This fullness not only reveals His divine nature but also fills believers, enabling them to live lives conformed to His pattern. Tony and Jesse also touch on how the gospel stands apart as an alien knowledge — a divine revelation that cannot be conceived by human minds or traditions. As they explore the text, the hosts discuss the practical implications of walking in Christ, from steadfast faith to gratitude and spiritual growth. They encourage listeners to seek a deeper understanding of Scripture, depend on the Holy Spirit for guidance, and remain vigilant against anything that detracts from Christ's sufficiency and authority. Key Points: Receiving Christ as Lord: The episode begins by unpacking the command to walk in Christ as those who have received Him as Lord. This involves submitting to His authority and living a life rooted in His teachings. Avoiding Empty Philosophy: The hosts warn against being taken captive by human traditions and worldly philosophies, which detract from the sufficiency of Christ and the gospel's divine truth. The Fullness of Christ: They emphasize that in Christ, the fullness of deity dwells bodily, and believers are filled in Him. This profound reality shapes how Christians live and view the world. Practical Christian Living: The discussion highlights the importance of spiritual growth, gratitude, and the necessity of being grounded in Scripture to guard against false teachings. Union with Christ: The episode sets the stage for a deeper dive into the themes of baptism and union with Christ, to be explored in the next installment. Questions for Reflection: What does it mean to “receive Christ Jesus as Lord,” and how does this shape your daily life? How can you remain vigilant against being taken captive by worldly philosophies or human traditions? In what ways does the knowledge of Christ's fullness and sufficiency transform your understanding of faith and worship? How can you cultivate a life of gratitude in response to the truths of the gospel? What practices can help you remain rooted and built up in Christ, especially amidst challenges to your faith?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal dive into Colossians 2:1-5, exploring the riches of assurance in Christ and His sufficiency as the gospel message, means, and goal. The discussion emphasizes the importance of knowing Christ as the central figure of the gospel and how understanding His promises leads to true assurance of salvation. Paul's words in this passage remind believers that Christ is the mystery of God revealed, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. This assurance is not based on human works or intellectual reasoning but on the unshakable promises of God. The conversation also delves into the connection between assurance and firmness of faith, highlighting how a deep, experiential knowledge of Christ enables believers to resist the plausible arguments and false teachings that can lead to doubt and instability. The hosts reflect on how true assurance equips believers to stand firm in their faith, even in the face of cultural pressures and competing philosophies. They stress the sufficiency of Scripture in revealing Christ and transforming lives, calling listeners to embrace the promises of God as the foundation of their faith. Finally, the episode examines how assurance in Christ fosters a deeper sense of unity and love among believers, as Paul prays for the Colossians to be knit together in love and encouraged by their shared faith. The hosts challenge listeners to rest confidently in Christ's finished work, engage with their local church community, and trust in the covenant promises of God, which guarantee eternal life for His people. Key Points: Christ as the Gospel Message and Means: The episode underscores that Christ is not only the center of the gospel message but also the means and goal of salvation. Believers are called to apprehend Him by faith as revealed in Scripture. The Riches of Assurance in Faith: Assurance of salvation is grounded in the promises of God, not in human works or intellectual reasoning. This assurance enables believers to resist false teachings and remain firm in their faith. The Sufficiency of Scripture: The Bible sufficiently reveals Christ as the true mystery of God, equipping believers with the knowledge and wisdom needed for life and godliness. Returning to Scripture is essential for deepening one's understanding of Christ. Unity in Love and Faith: Paul's prayer for the Colossians highlights the importance of being knit together in love and encouraged by a shared faith. Assurance in Christ fosters unity within the body of believers. Resisting Plausible Arguments: The hosts discuss how assurance in Christ protects believers from being deluded by plausible but false arguments, emphasizing the need for a firm foundation in Christ-centered theology. Questions for Reflection: How does understanding Christ as the center of the gospel transform your approach to Scripture and theology? In what ways can you grow in assurance of your salvation through God's promises? How can the sufficiency of Scripture guide you in resisting cultural pressures and false teachings? What practical steps can you take to foster unity and love within your local church community? How does reflecting on God's covenant promises deepen your confidence in His faithfulness?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse delve into the complexities of Colossians 1:24–29, exploring Paul's profound theology of suffering and the mystery of Christ's indwelling presence. The discussion begins by examining Paul's statement about "filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions" and how this does not undermine the sufficiency of Christ's atoning work. Instead, they argue, Paul is emphasizing the role of suffering in the Christian life as a means of identifying with Christ and demonstrating the power of the gospel. The hosts highlight how Paul models joy in suffering, presenting it as a privilege and a testimony to the transformative work of Christ in the believer's life. They reflect on how suffering serves as a tool to grow in spiritual maturity, deepen union with Christ, and proclaim the gospel authentically. By connecting Paul's message to broader biblical themes, they emphasize the importance of perseverance and faithfulness in the face of trials, drawing encouragement from Paul's example. Additionally, the conversation touches on practical applications for today, encouraging listeners to embrace their calling, even when it involves hardship, and to live in a way that reflects the hope of glory—the presence and power of Christ within us. This episode offers rich theological insights and challenges listeners to view suffering through the lens of God's redemptive purposes. Key Points: Understanding Colossians 1:24: The episode unpacks Paul's difficult statement about "filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions," explaining that it does not suggest any deficiency in Christ's atonement but highlights the role of suffering in the believer's life. Joy in Suffering: Tony and Jesse discuss how Paul finds joy in his hardships, seeing them as part of his calling to proclaim the gospel and as a way to demonstrate Christ's work in his life. Union with Christ: The hosts explore how suffering deepens the believer's experiential union with Christ, making His presence and power evident to the world. The Role of Ministers: Paul's example serves as a model for pastors and teachers, emphasizing the call to serve and suffer for the sake of the church and the gospel. Practical Applications for Today: The discussion concludes with encouragement for listeners to persevere in trials, embrace their God-given calling, and view suffering as an opportunity to glorify God. Questions for Reflection: How does Paul's theology of suffering challenge your understanding of hardship in the Christian life? In what ways can you find joy in the trials you face, knowing Christ is present with you? How can Paul's example of perseverance inspire you to remain faithful in your calling, even when it involves difficulty or sacrifice? What does it mean for you personally that "Christ is in you, the hope of glory"? How can suffering serve as a testimony to the power and sufficiency of the gospel in your life?

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse dives into Colossians 1:21-23, unpacking the profound and transformative truth of reconciliation in Christ. With Tony absent, Jesse takes the lead, exploring the scandal of reconciliation and how God, through Christ, has restored a broken relationship with His people. He delves into the radical message of the gospel, emphasizing how Christ's sacrificial death and resurrection not only redeemed humanity but also brought reconciliation to all of creation. Jesse reflects on the nature of reconciliation, highlighting the transition from alienation to holiness, and the gift of being made blameless and free from accusation through Christ. He explains the implications of this transformation, both in the spiritual and physical realms, and challenges listeners to live in light of their new identity in Christ. This episode also touches on the cosmic scope of Christ's victory, which extends beyond humanity to encompass all of creation. Throughout the episode, Jesse encourages believers to embrace their identity as reconciled children of God and to continue steadfastly in their faith. By grounding the discussion in a Reformed theological framework, he provides both practical and theological insights into the hope and assurance found in the gospel. Key Points: The Scandal of Reconciliation: Paul's message in Colossians highlights the shocking and profound truth that God reconciles alienated sinners to Himself through Christ's death and resurrection. From Alienation to Holiness: Believers, once hostile and separated from God, are made holy, blameless, and free from accusation through Christ's bodily sacrifice. Christ's Cosmic Victory: The reconciliation accomplished by Christ extends to all of creation, as He restores all things to Himself in a transformative and eternal way. Faith and Perseverance: Paul's exhortation to remain steadfast in faith serves as a call for believers to continue trusting in Christ's sufficiency and work. The Joy of Gospel Transformation: The transformative power of the gospel is not just personal but cosmic, changing individuals, relationships, and the entire created order. Questions for Reflection: How does understanding the scandal of reconciliation deepen your appreciation of the gospel? In what ways can you live out your identity as someone who has been made holy and blameless through Christ? What does it mean to remain steadfast in faith, and how can you cultivate this perseverance in your own life? How does the cosmic scope of Christ's reconciliation shape your understanding of His lordship over creation? How can you share the transformative power of the gospel with others in your daily life?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into Colossians 1:15–20, one of the most profound passages in the New Testament that highlights the supremacy and preeminence of Christ. They explore how this passage serves as a theological anchor, emphasizing Christ's role as Creator, Sustainer, and Reconciler of all things. By unpacking the rich doctrinal truths within this section of Scripture, the hosts show how Paul's words both exalt Christ and address the sufficiency of His work for salvation and reconciliation. The conversation begins by connecting the passage to Paul's broader purpose in Colossians—countering false teachings that diminish Christ's sufficiency. Jesse and Tony emphasize how this "Christological anthem" asserts Christ's universal relevance, not only as the Creator of the cosmos but also as the head of the Church and the source of reconciliation for all creation. They address the layered structure of the passage, reflecting on its poetic rhythm and theological depth, which together form a vivid picture of Christ's unparalleled authority and role in redemption. From understanding Christ as the image of the invisible God to unpacking what it means for Him to hold all things together, Jesse and Tony draw out practical implications for believers. They challenge listeners to reflect on how Christ's preeminence shapes their worship and daily lives and encourage a deeper engagement with Scripture as the ultimate revelation of God in Christ. Key Points: Christ as the Image of the Invisible God: The episode explores how Christ reveals the nature of God to humanity, making the invisible visible. He is the fullness of God in bodily form, perfectly representing the Father. Christ as Creator and Sustainer: Jesse and Tony highlight that all things—visible and invisible, earthly and heavenly—were created through Christ, for Christ, and are held together by Him. His sustaining power underlines His universal authority. Christ as Reconciler: The discussion emphasizes that through the blood of His cross, Christ reconciles all things to Himself, securing peace and restoring creation. This reconciliation highlights His sufficiency for salvation and the futility of seeking anything outside of Him. The Practical Implications of Christ's Supremacy: The hosts reflect on how Christ's preeminence demands our worship, shapes our understanding of salvation, and calls us to live in alignment with His lordship. Questions for Reflection: What does it mean for Christ to be the image of the invisible God, and how does this deepen your understanding of Him? How does recognizing Christ as Creator and Sustainer impact the way you view the world and your place in it? In what ways does the reconciliation achieved through Christ challenge or encourage you in your faith journey? How can the truth of Christ's preeminence shape your worship and daily life?

n this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve deep into Colossians 1:13-14, unpacking the Apostle Paul's rich theological message about being rescued from the domain of darkness and transferred into the kingdom of Christ. The discussion centers on the transformative power of God's grace, emphasizing the joy and beauty of redemption, forgiveness, and union with Christ. Through Christ alone, believers are qualified to share in the inheritance of the saints, receiving full access to the privileges of being children of God. Tony and Jesse explore the covenantal implications of the passage, showing how salvation is not based on human effort or merit but entirely on God's initiative. The conversation highlights the sufficiency of Christ in salvation, contrasting the gospel's message with works-based systems of theology. They also discuss how this passage reflects the broader themes of Pauline theology, including union with Christ, sanctification, and glorification. The hosts encourage listeners to embrace the good news of the gospel, reminding them that salvation is a gift received through Christ alone. They urge anyone who has not yet trusted in Christ to consider the beauty of being transferred into the kingdom of light. This episode is a theological feast, offering both encouragement and practical insights for living out the gospel. Key Points: Rescue and Redemption in Christ: Believers are delivered from the domain of darkness and transferred into the kingdom of God's beloved Son, emphasizing God's initiative in salvation. Union with Christ: Salvation is not merely transactional but relational, as believers are united with Christ and share in His inheritance. Covenantal Theology: The passage underscores the covenantal framework of Scripture, showing how believers are brought into a new covenantal relationship through Christ. The Sufficiency of Christ: The episode highlights Christ's sufficiency in salvation, rejecting works-based systems and affirming that salvation is entirely a gift of grace. Questions for Reflection: How does understanding that salvation is entirely God's initiative impact your walk with Christ? What does it mean to you personally to be transferred from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of light? How does the concept of union with Christ shape your understanding of your identity as a believer?

In Episode 430 of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse begin their exploration of Paul's letter to the Colossians, focusing on Colossians 1:1–12. This section introduces the key themes of the epistle, including faith, hope, love, and the transformative power of the Gospel. The hosts emphasize that the Gospel is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, both globally and within the lives of believers, demonstrating the sufficiency of Christ in all things. They also discuss the importance of spiritual wisdom and understanding, which enable believers to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord. The episode highlights Paul's unique relationship with the Colossian church, which he had not personally visited, and how his prayer for the church reflects his deep concern for their growth in faith. Tony and Jesse explore the central message of Colossians: Christ is sufficient for salvation, sanctification, and the restoration of all things. They unpack how faith, hope, and love are interconnected in the Christian life, focusing on how hope in the inheritance laid up in heaven empowers believers to love others and grow in faith. Listeners are encouraged to trust in the transformative work of the Gospel, which not only redeems individuals but also restores creation. The hosts remind us of the importance of hearing, understanding, and trusting the Gospel, as well as living it out through a life worthy of the Lord. This episode is a rich dive into the theological truths and practical implications of Paul's opening words to the Colossians. Key Points: The Sufficiency of Christ: Paul's letter emphasizes that Christ is sufficient for salvation, sanctification, and the restoration of all things. There is no need for anything beyond Christ to save or transform believers. Faith, Hope, and Love: These virtues are central to the Christian life. Paul highlights the hope laid up in heaven as the foundation for the Colossians' faith and love, which are outward expressions of their relationship with Christ. The Gospel's Power to Bear Fruit: The Gospel is described as constantly bearing fruit and increasing, both in the world and in individual believers. This demonstrates the active, transformative power of God's Word. Spiritual Wisdom and Understanding: Paul prays for the Colossians to be filled with spiritual wisdom and understanding, which enables them to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord and to bear fruit in every good work. Questions for Reflection: How does the hope laid up in heaven impact the way you live your daily life? In what ways have you experienced the Gospel bearing fruit and increasing in your own life? How can you grow in spiritual wisdom and understanding to better walk in a manner worthy of the Lord? What does it mean to you that Christ is sufficient for all aspects of salvation and sanctification? How do faith, hope, and love work together in your relationship with God and with others?

Episode 429 of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse explore the topic of hearing God's voice and discerning His guidance in everyday decisions. The discussion begins with an affirmation of God's active presence in the lives of believers through the Holy Spirit and transitions into a theological exploration of how the Spirit leads Christians today. The hosts tackle common questions such as how to determine God's will in decisions like career choices, relationships, and daily activities, emphasizing the importance of wisdom, prayer, and reliance on God's Word. The episode delves into the distinction between natural and supernatural guidance, challenging the notion that the Holy Spirit only works through overtly miraculous means. Instead, Tony and Jesse highlight the Spirit's continuous involvement in sanctifying believers and guiding them through ordinary means, such as the application of God's moral law, personal inclinations shaped by biblical principles, and the counsel of mature Christians. They also discuss the balance between trusting God's sovereignty and taking active responsibility in decision-making. Listeners are encouraged to develop a deeper understanding of the Holy Spirit's work in their lives, not only in significant decisions but also in the seemingly mundane moments of daily life. With practical advice on seeking wise counsel, evaluating personal gifts, and aligning decisions with God's revealed will, the episode offers a comprehensive guide to navigating life's choices with faith and confidence in the Spirit's leading. Key Points: God's Will and the Holy Spirit's Guidance: The Holy Spirit primarily leads believers through God's Word and the moral law, but He also uses natural means like personal inclinations and external circumstances to guide decisions. The Role of Wisdom and Counsel: Christians are encouraged to seek advice from pastors, mature believers, and their church communities as part of discerning God's will. Balancing Natural and Supernatural Guidance: While acknowledging that the Holy Spirit can work supernaturally, the hosts emphasize His ordinary, continuous work in sanctifying believers and leading them toward holiness. Practical Decision-Making: The episode provides a framework for decision-making, including evaluating moral considerations, personal desires, and practical constraints while trusting God's sovereignty. Questions for Reflection: How can I better recognize the Holy Spirit's work in my daily life and decision-making process? What steps can I take to seek wisdom and counsel when faced with a major decision? How does understanding God's moral law help me align my choices with His will? How can I grow in trusting God's sovereignty while taking responsibility for my actions?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal tackle an issue that resonates deeply with many Christians: how to love and remain content in imperfect churches. The discussion begins by addressing the challenges of navigating differences in worship practices, theological preferences, and church traditions while maintaining love and unity within the body of Christ. The hosts emphasize that no church is perfect and that contentment often requires humility, submission, and a deep understanding of God's sovereign placement of His people in specific congregations. Tony and Jesse explore the regulative principle of worship, explaining how it guides many churches and believers in determining what is appropriate for corporate worship. They also highlight the importance of approaching church leadership with charity and seeking to understand the reasoning behind certain practices, even when they differ from personal convictions. Through their reflections, they encourage listeners to prioritize the peace and purity of the church over secondary or tertiary disagreements. Ultimately, the hosts remind listeners that Christ has placed His name on His church, including its diverse and imperfect members. They challenge believers to love their local church deeply, embrace its members as family, and trust that God is working through the imperfections to sanctify His people. Whether wrestling with worship preferences or theological nuances, the episode calls Christians to a higher standard of love, patience, and submission to Christ's body. Key Points: Understanding Church Contentment: Contentment begins with recognizing that no church is perfect and trusting God's sovereignty in placing us within specific congregations. Navigating Worship Differences: The regulative principle of worship provides a framework, but differing interpretations require humility and charity in handling disagreements. Prioritizing Church Peace and Unity: Maintaining the peace and purity of the church often means setting aside personal preferences and embracing the diversity of the body of Christ. Practical Steps for Growth in Contentment: Engage with church leaders to understand their reasoning, approach disagreements with humility, and focus on the spiritual disciplines evident in the congregation. The Call to Radical Love: Loving the church means loving its people as Christ does, despite their imperfections, and committing to serve and grow together as a family. Questions for Reflection: What steps can I take to grow in contentment with my local church, even when it doesn't align perfectly with my preferences? How can I approach church leadership with concerns about worship practices in a way that fosters unity and understanding? In what ways am I prioritizing love and unity in my church over personal theological or practical preferences? How does recognizing the church as Christ's body change how I view its members and practices? Am I willing to submit to the church's leadership and trust God's placement of me in this congregation, even when I disagree with certain aspects?

Explore the final article of John Knox's Scott's Confession as we discuss the gifts freely given to the church, the true marks of a biblical church, and the role of the church in Christian perseverance. Dive into the importance of confession, absolution, and boldness in proclaiming the gospel. Learn how Knox's theology applies to modern church life and why the church is central to every believer's faith journey. In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse conclude their series on John Knox's Scott's Confession by exploring the final article, "The Gifts Freely Given to the Church." They discuss the significance of the church as the central place where God's gifts, including the gospel, sacraments, and discipline, are administered to His people. Knox's theology highlights the role of the church in sustaining believers and ensuring their perseverance in faith through the power of the Holy Spirit. The conversation emphasizes the importance of confession and absolution as key elements of worship and spiritual renewal within the community of faith. The brothers also reflect on Knox's prayer at the conclusion of the confession, which calls for the confounding of God's enemies, the boldness of His servants in proclaiming the Word, and the spread of the gospel to all nations. They explore how this prayer encapsulates Knox's vision for the church as a place of purity, worship, and mission. The episode considers how theology must translate into action, shaping the lives of believers and their engagement with the church. Finally, Tony and Jesse encourage listeners to persevere in their faith by remaining actively engaged in the life of the church. They emphasize the importance of daily worship, prayer, and regular participation in the church's ministry as means by which believers are sustained and renewed in their walk with God. The discussion ties Knox's historical theology to the challenges and opportunities faced by contemporary Christians. Key Points: The Church as the Center of God's Gifts: Knox emphasizes that the true church is where the Word is rightly preached, the sacraments are faithfully administered, and discipline is executed according to Scripture. The church is the primary means of grace for believers. Perseverance of the Saints: Knox's theology underscores that true Christians will persevere to the end, not because of their own strength but through the sustaining power of the Holy Spirit, often mediated through the church. Confession and Absolution: The importance of regular rhythms of confession and the assurance of absolution within the church is highlighted as critical for spiritual renewal and growth. Knox's Vision of Purity and Mission: The final prayer in the confession calls for the purity of the gospel, the boldness of the church in proclaiming it, and the spread of God's truth to all nations. The Role of the Church in Christian Life: The episode explores how the church is central to the believer's faith, not just as a place of worship but as a community where believers are encouraged, challenged, and spiritually nourished. Questions for Reflection: How does Knox's theology challenge modern views of individualism in the Christian life? Why are the true marks of the church—preaching, sacraments, and discipline—so important for sustaining believers? In what ways can you actively participate in the life of your church to grow in your faith? How can Knox's final prayer inspire your own prayers for the church and its mission? What role does confession and absolution play in your understanding of worship and renewal?

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into Article 24 of John Knox's Scots Confession, focusing on the role and responsibilities of civil magistrates. The hosts explore Knox's perspective on the divine ordination of government structures and leaders, as well as the Christian's response to those in authority. They wrestle with Knox's strong assertions about honoring and loving civil leaders, even when their personal values or policies may seem at odds with biblical principles. The conversation transitions into a broader discussion about how modern Christians approach the intersection of faith and politics. Jesse and Tony reflect on the tension between respecting governmental offices and responding to the individuals who occupy them, particularly when their actions conflict with Christian values. They challenge listeners to think deeply about how they pray for their leaders, emphasizing the importance of personal, specific prayers for those in authority, regardless of political or ideological differences. The episode also revisits critical scriptural passages, such as Romans 13 and 1 Timothy 2, offering practical insights into how believers can faithfully navigate their relationship with civil authority. With a thought-provoking blend of theological reflection and practical application, this episode invites listeners to consider how they can embody Christ's love and truth in their engagement with government and leaders. Key Points: John Knox's Perspective on Civil Magistrates: The hosts examine Knox's assertion that civil magistrates are God's lieutenants, ordained for the preservation of order and the promotion of true religion. They analyze his strong call to honor and love those in authority, even when their actions may seem antagonistic to Christian values. The Christian's Responsibility Toward Leaders: The discussion emphasizes the need for Christians to respect not only governmental offices but also the individuals who occupy them. Jesse and Tony call for a more personal approach to prayer, advocating for specific intercessions for leaders' salvation and wisdom. Scriptural Foundations for Civil Authority: Drawing on Romans 13 and 1 Timothy 2, the episode highlights the biblical call to pray for those in authority, affirming that God's sovereignty extends to the appointment of both offices and individuals. The hosts reflect on the tension between submitting to authority and standing firm in biblical truth. Practical Encouragement for Believers: Jesse and Tony urge listeners to engage with their local leaders by learning their names, praying for them specifically, and even reaching out to offer spiritual support. They stress the importance of aligning civic engagement with biblical principles of love, prayer, and submission to God's sovereignty. Questions for Reflection: How does your understanding of God's sovereignty influence the way you think about civil authorities and leaders? In what ways can you pray more specifically and personally for the leaders in your community? How can you balance honoring civil authorities while remaining faithful to biblical principles when their policies conflict with your beliefs? What steps can you take to engage with your local leaders and offer them spiritual support? How might John Knox's perspective on civil magistrates challenge or affirm your current views on faith and politics? Resources: A Tale of Two Texts: How the Westminster Confession of Faith Was Changed by American Presbyterians to Reflect a New Understanding of the Civil Magistrate - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/a-tale-of-two-texts-how-the-westminster-confession-of-faith-was-changed-by-american-presbyterians-to-reflect-a-new-understanding-of-the-civil-magistrate/ 'Of the Civil Magistrate': How Presbyterians Shifted on Church-State Relations - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/civil-magistrate-presbyterians/ 'Of the Civil Magistrate': How Presbyterians Shifted on Church-State Relations - https://clearlyreformed.org/of-the-civil-magistrate-how-presbyterians-shifted-on-church-state-relations

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony dive into the topic of sacrament eligibility, focusing heavily on the theology and practices surrounding the Lord's Supper. Beginning with a discussion on the biblical foundations of worthy participation, the hosts explore the requirements for partaking in communion, emphasizing the importance of self-examination and reconciliation within the covenant community. Drawing from 1 Corinthians 11 and the Scots Confession, they unpack the critical elements of discerning the body of Christ and evaluating one's faith and relationships before coming to the table. The conversation extends to the role of church leadership in fencing the table, highlighting the balance between pastoral oversight and personal responsibility. Jesse and Tony emphasize that while the bar for participation in the Lord's Supper is not insurmountably high, it nevertheless requires maturity, faith, and a proper understanding of the sacrament. They also explore the broader implications of communion readiness, noting how it ties into the daily rhythms of Christian living and our relationships with God and others. Finally, the hosts touch on the practical aspects of preparing for communion, including the importance of ongoing introspection and pastoral guidance. They encourage listeners to approach the Lord's Supper with reverence, ensuring that it remains a time of worship, proclamation, and unity within the church. This episode serves as a thoughtful guide to understanding and practicing the Lord's Supper in a way that honors Christ and strengthens the covenant community. Key Points: The Biblical Basis for Self-Examination: The hosts discuss Paul's instruction in 1 Corinthians 11, emphasizing the need for self-examination and discernment before participating in the Lord's Supper. Reconciliation Within the Covenant Community: The importance of resolving conflicts and maintaining unity with fellow believers as part of preparing to partake in communion is explored in detail. The Role of Pastoral Leadership: Jesse and Tony highlight the role of pastors in guiding their congregations through the process of fencing the table and ensuring members are spiritually prepared. Communion Readiness Across Ages: The episode addresses the question of when children and new believers are ready to participate in the Lord's Supper, emphasizing spiritual maturity over age. The Gravity of the Lord's Supper: The hosts stress the need to approach communion with a deep understanding of its significance as both an act of worship and a proclamation of the Gospel. Questions for Reflection: How can you prepare yourself better for the Lord's Supper in your daily walk with Christ? Are there any unresolved conflicts in your life that you need to address before coming to the table? How can pastors and church leaders balance oversight with encouraging personal responsibility in fencing the table? What role does self-examination play in your spiritual life, and how does it shape your participation in communion? How can families and churches work together to teach children and new believers about the significance of the Lord's Supper?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the intricate topic of sacrament administration, focusing on who is authorized to administer sacraments within the church. The discussion is set against the backdrop of historical church practices and the theological underpinnings of the Reformed tradition. The hosts emphasize the importance of understanding both the form and function of sacraments, as well as the qualifications required for those who administer them. A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to exploring the role of ministers in sacrament administration. The hosts argue that sacraments are not merely ceremonial acts but are deeply embedded in the theological and ecclesiastical framework of the church. They discuss the implications of allowing only ordained ministers to administer sacraments, pointing out the potential pitfalls of non-ordained individuals performing these sacred rites. Throughout the episode, Jesse and Tony address common misconceptions about sacraments and highlight the necessity of adhering to proper practices as outlined in Reformed theology. They also touch upon the historical context of these practices, referencing figures like John Knox and the importance of maintaining doctrinal integrity in sacramental administration. The episode concludes with a call for listeners to reflect on their understanding of sacraments and their role within the church. Key Points: The necessity of ordained ministers in administering sacraments. The theological significance of sacraments in the Reformed tradition. The historical context and evolution of sacrament practices. The importance of proper elements and procedures in sacrament administration. Misconceptions about who can administer sacraments and why it matters. Questions for Reflection: Why is it important for sacraments to be administered by ordained ministers? How do sacraments function within the broader framework of Reformed theology? What are the potential consequences of improper sacrament administration? How do historical practices influence contemporary views on sacraments? In what ways can individual congregations ensure the integrity of their sacramental practices?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal delve into the theological depths of the sacraments, focusing particularly on the Lord's Supper as articulated in the Scots Confession. They explore the intricate relationship between faith and the sacraments, emphasizing John Knox's perspective on the spiritual and mystical union believers experience through the Lord's Supper. The hosts discuss how this union is not merely symbolic but a profound means of grace that assures believers of their faith and salvation. The conversation also touches on the nature of assurance in faith, as discussed in the Westminster Confession, highlighting the tension between the assurance given by the Holy Spirit and the believer's subjective experience of it. They stress that the sacraments, while ordinary in appearance, are extraordinary in their spiritual significance when apprehended by faith, serving as a means for believers to partake in the grace of God. Furthermore, Schwamb and Arsenal address the broader implications of sacramental theology within the church, including the importance of church discipline and the proper administration of the sacraments. They encourage listeners to reflect on their own experiences with the Lord's Supper, urging them to approach the sacrament with reverence and faith, trusting in the Holy Spirit's work to bring forth fruit in their spiritual lives. Key Points: The Lord's Supper is a means of grace that provides believers with assurance of their faith and salvation through a mystical union with Christ. The sacraments require faith to be effective, serving as more than mere symbols but as channels of divine grace. John Knox's theology emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between the signs and the realities they signify in the sacraments. Assurance of faith is a complex topic, with the Holy Spirit continually testifying to believers of their status as God's children, regardless of their subjective feelings. Proper administration and understanding of the sacraments are crucial for maintaining church discipline and spiritual nourishment. Questions for Reflection: How does your understanding of the sacraments impact your experience of the Lord's Supper? In what ways can you cultivate a deeper appreciation for the spiritual realities signified in the sacraments? How does the concept of assurance in faith influence your daily walk with Christ?

In Episode 422 of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal embark on a thorough exploration of the Lord's Supper, focusing on its representation in the Scots Confession. They delve into the concept of "real presence," discussing how the Holy Spirit actively unites believers with Christ through the sacrament of communion. This episode sheds light on the transformative nature of the Lord's Supper, emphasizing its role in enhancing spiritual life and fostering deeper union with Christ. Throughout the episode, the hosts tackle common misconceptions about the sacraments, clarifying that the real presence is not about the physical transformation of elements, but rather about the spiritual nourishment and union with Christ that believers experience. Jesse and Tony explore the theological significance of the sacraments within the reformed tradition, pointing out the distinctive differences between reformed perspectives and other Christian traditions such as Roman Catholicism and Lutheranism. Listeners are encouraged to appreciate the profound spiritual dimensions of communion, understanding it as more than a symbolic act. The episode culminates in the assertion that the Lord's Supper is a powerful proclamation of the Gospel, with its efficacy not tied to the moment of administration but extending into the believer's ongoing spiritual journey. Key Points: The episode emphasizes the concept of "real presence" in the Lord's Supper, highlighting the role of the Holy Spirit in uniting believers with Christ through the sacrament. Jesse and Tony address common misconceptions, explaining that the real presence involves spiritual nourishment rather than a physical transformation of the elements. The hosts explore the theological significance of the sacraments in reformed theology, contrasting reformed views with those of other Christian traditions. The episode underscores the Lord's Supper as a Gospel proclamation, with its spiritual efficacy extending beyond the moment of administration. Questions for Reflection: How does the concept of "real presence" in the Lord's Supper enhance your understanding of communion? What are the key differences between reformed and other Christian perspectives on the sacraments? In what ways does the Lord's Supper serve as a proclamation of the Gospel in your spiritual practice?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal engage in a discussion about the theology and significance of the sacraments, particularly baptism and the Lord's Supper, through the lens of John Knox's perspective as outlined in the Scots Confession. They begin by emphasizing the sacraments as more than mere symbolic acts, arguing that they play a crucial role in conferring grace and assuring believers of their salvation. This theological standpoint challenges the common view of sacraments as simple memorials or rituals, inviting listeners to explore deeper spiritual meanings. As the conversation unfolds, the hosts delve into the historical and theological contexts of sacramental practices, drawing on confessional statements and insights from Reformed theologians like Knox. They discuss the sacraments' role in marking God's people and differentiating them from those outside the covenant, highlighting their function as visible signs of God's promises. Moreover, they address the assurance and spiritual nourishment that believers receive through these practices, emphasizing the sacraments' tangible aspects and their importance in the life of the church. Throughout the episode, Jesse and Tony encourage listeners to reflect on the profound spiritual realities conveyed through the sacraments. They urge believers to reconsider their understanding of these sacred practices and to approach them with a heart open to receiving God's grace. By exploring the complexities of sacramental theology, the hosts aim to enrich the listeners' appreciation for the sacraments as essential components of the Christian faith and as means of experiencing God's covenant promises in a tangible way. Key Points: The sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper are more than symbols; they confer grace and assure believers of their salvation. John Knox's perspective from the Scots Confession emphasizes the sacraments as visible signs of God's promises and their role in distinguishing God's people. The spiritual nourishment and assurance provided by sacraments highlight their significance in the life of the church and encourage deeper reflection on their meaning. Questions for Reflection: How do the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper serve as tangible expressions of God's covenant promises? In what ways can believers experience spiritual growth through participation in the sacraments? How can understanding the historical and theological context of sacraments enhance one's appreciation for these sacred practices?

In Episode 420 of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and his wife Ashley engage in a lively discussion centered around their favorite podcasts and personal anecdotes. The episode kicks off with Tony introducing Ashley as his co-host for the day, setting the stage for a relaxed and informal conversation. Ashley shares her insights on various podcasts that have captured her interest, notably highlighting her love for true crime and informative shows. Throughout the conversation, Ashley delves into the details of her podcast recommendations, starting with "Hooked," a gripping true crime podcast about the unexpected life of a Boeing employee turned bank robber. She also discusses "Criminal," a long-time favorite known for its quirky take on lesser-known crimes. The couple transitions into discussing more personal and practical podcasts like "Focus on the Family," which offers marriage and parenting advice, and "Toddlers Made Easy," providing helpful tips for parenting young children. In between podcast recommendations, Tony and Ashley offer glimpses into their family life, sharing humorous and heartfelt experiences. They discuss the dynamics of their home, including their toddler's recent antics and their dog's vigilant behavior. The episode wraps up with Ashley listing a few more podcast recommendations, leaving listeners with a sense of camaraderie and a wealth of new podcasts to explore. Key Points: Ashley's top podcast recommendations, including "Hooked" and "Criminal." Insights into practical podcasts like "Focus on the Family" and "Toddlers Made Easy." Personal anecdotes from Tony and Ashley's family life, adding a humorous touch. Questions for Reflection: What are some podcasts that have influenced your perspective on family and relationships? How can listening to diverse podcast genres enhance your understanding of different topics? What role does humor play in your own discussions about family dynamics and everyday life?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb engage in a thought-provoking discussion about the authority of church councils within reformed theology. They explore how church councils serve as a collective authority, combining the insights of individual ministers to make decisions that align with the marks of a true church. The hosts delve into the role of these councils in interpreting Scripture, addressing discipline matters, and applying biblical teachings to real-world situations. Throughout the conversation, they emphasize the Protestant struggle to balance personal interpretation of Scripture with the collective wisdom of church councils. The discussion also touches on historical and contemporary expressions of church authority, referencing key theological figures, confessions, and the tension between individual and collective authority. Tony and Jesse candidly share their personal challenges in articulating the intricacies of reformed theology, acknowledging the complexity of the subject and the importance of ongoing theological reflection. Their conversation highlights the significance of understanding the authority of church councils in preserving the purity of the gospel and maintaining a sincere devotion to Christ. Amidst the serious theological discourse, the episode is peppered with humor and light-hearted anecdotes, such as the idea of discussing theology over hot wings. This blend of rigorous theological exploration and relatable humor creates an engaging listening experience, encouraging listeners to delve deeper into their understanding of reformed theology and the authority of church councils. Key Points: Church councils serve as a collective authority in reformed theology, combining individual ministers' insights to uphold the marks of a true church. The hosts explore the tension between personal interpretation of Scripture and the collective wisdom of church councils in applying biblical teachings. The episode emphasizes the importance of understanding church councils' authority in preserving gospel purity and fostering sincere devotion to Christ. Questions for Reflection: How do church councils contribute to maintaining the marks of a true church? In what ways can Protestants balance individual Scripture interpretation with collective church authority? Why is it important to understand the historical and contemporary roles of church councils in reformed theology?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore the fundamental concept of the authority of Scripture, emphasizing its unparalleled role in guiding and shaping the lives of Christians. They discuss how elevating human interpretation above the Bible can lead to dangerous theological errors, underscoring the necessity of submitting to the Scriptures as the ultimate authority. The conversation draws on biblical references such as Psalm 19 and 2 Timothy 3 to illustrate how God's Word, inspired by the Holy Spirit, is transformative and life-giving. The hosts delve into the role of the Holy Spirit in making the Word of God effectual, asserting that without the Spirit's illumination, the Scriptures would not have their profound impact on believers. They discuss how prayerful engagement with the Bible is essential, as it allows Christians to tap into the divine wisdom and truth contained within its pages. The episode also touches on John Knox's theology, highlighting how the character of God is mirrored in the Scriptures, which serve as a powerful tool for wisdom and salvation. Throughout the discussion, Tony and Jesse emphasize the importance of approaching Bible study with humility and a prayerful heart. They encourage listeners to actively engage with the Scriptures, recognizing them as God's direct communication designed to equip believers for every good work. The episode serves as a call to deepen one's relationship with the Bible, allowing its teachings to shape and enrich one's spiritual journey. Key Points: The authority of Scripture is paramount and must be revered above human interpretation. The Holy Spirit plays a crucial role in making the Scriptures effectual and transformative. Prayerful engagement with the Bible is essential for accessing its divine wisdom and truth. John Knox's theology highlights the reflection of God's character in the Scriptures. The Bible serves as a powerful tool for wisdom and salvation, equipping believers for good works. Questions for Reflection: How can we ensure that we are submitting to the authority of Scripture in our daily lives? What role does the Holy Spirit play in your personal Bible study, and how can you invite His guidance more fully? In what ways can prayer enhance your understanding and application of the Scriptures? How does recognizing the character of God in the Scriptures impact your relationship with the Bible? What steps can you take to deepen your engagement with God's Word and allow it to transform your spiritual journey? Links: How to Faith a Life (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJEdg8fhK0-boIiNkjUmUww)

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb engage in a profound discussion on the subject of church discipline, examining its biblical foundations and its vital role within the Christian faith community. They delve into John Knox's perspectives, underscoring the significance of spiritual authority and the unity that discipline brings to the church. Through a thoughtful exploration, they emphasize how discipline, when enacted with love and compassion, aligns with the heart of God and serves as a manifestation of His love in the lives of believers. Furthermore, the hosts highlight the critical responsibilities of pastors and elders in upholding church discipline. The conversation shines a light on the often unseen burdens that church leaders bear as they navigate the complexities of correcting and guiding members of their congregations. By drawing parallels to a surgeon's duty, they emphasize that discipline, much like a necessary operation, is an act of love aimed at healing and restoration. Tony and Jesse also address the challenges faced by church leaders in maintaining confidentiality and support during disciplinary proceedings. They encourage listeners to pray for their pastors and elders, recognizing the heavy burden of leadership and the spiritual battles that accompany it. The episode serves as a call to action for congregants to support their leaders, uphold the unity of the church, and engage in the discipline process with understanding and respect. Key Points: Church discipline is a profound display of Christian love that aligns with biblical principles. Pastors and elders carry a heavy burden in managing church discipline with discretion and compassion. The unity of the church is intricately linked to how discipline is handled, impacting the congregation's overall health. Questions for Reflection: How can church discipline be conducted in a way that truly reflects God's love? What role do congregants play in supporting their church leaders during disciplinary processes? In what ways can prayer and encouragement strengthen the unity of a faith community during challenging times?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb engage in a deep exploration of the theological insights of John Knox as delineated in the Scots Confession. The discussion intricately weaves through various theological concepts, emphasizing the critical role of the Lord's Supper as an integral part of Reformed ecclesiology. The hosts delve into the integration of the promises of God and how these shape the sacraments and the overall church practice within the Reformed tradition. The conversation further unfolds to address the essential marks of a true church, particularly focusing on the role of church discipline. Arsenal and Schwamb articulate the significance of administering sacraments in accordance with scriptural doctrines, highlighting the interconnectedness of preaching the Word, administering the sacraments, and exercising church discipline. These elements are presented as a cohesive framework that underpins Reformed church governance. Listeners are invited to reflect on the implications of Knox's theology for contemporary church practices, understanding how historical theological constructs continue to influence modern ecclesiological approaches. The episode provides an enriching narrative that underscores the necessity of adhering to scriptural mandates and the proper execution of church governance, making it an invaluable resource for those interested in historical theology and its modern applications. Key Points: The integration of the promises of God is central to the administration of sacraments in Reformed theology. Church discipline is a critical component of the true church, involving the withholding of sacraments when necessary. The Scots Confession offers foundational insights into Reformed ecclesiology and the role of the church in proclaiming the Gospel. Questions for Reflection: How does John Knox's theology influence contemporary Reformed church practices? What is the significance of the sacraments in maintaining the integrity of the church according to the Scots Confession? In what ways can church discipline be seen as an expression of grace within the church community?

In this episode, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal of the Reformed Brotherhood delve into the parable of the wheat and tares, offering an insightful discussion on the challenges of discerning true believers from false ones. They explore the theological implications of this parable, emphasizing the responsibility of Christians to recognize the true Church while acknowledging that individual believers do not hold the authority to make these determinations independently. This conversation underscores the importance of understanding the roles and responsibilities within the Church, particularly regarding church discipline and the power of the keys. The hosts discuss the historical and eschatological elements of the Church's authority, drawing connections to the biblical narrative of Adam's role in the Garden of Eden. They highlight the parallels between the parable's servants and the responsibility of guarding the faith, suggesting that vigilance and discernment are crucial for the Church's health and integrity. By examining the significance of ecclesiastical authority, Jesse and Tony provide a nuanced perspective on the visible and invisible Church and the implications of these distinctions for both individual believers and church leaders. Throughout the episode, the Reformed Brotherhood emphasizes the need for collective discernment within the Church, stressing that proper church discipline, including excommunication, has real consequences for believers. They advocate for a deeper understanding of ecclesiastical authority and the marks of the true Church to ensure that Christians are aligned with a congregation that faithfully adheres to biblical principles. Key Points: The parable of the wheat and tares illustrates the challenge of discerning true believers within the Church. Individual Christians do not have the authority to determine who is a true believer; this is the role of the Church's leaders. The Church's authority is rooted in biblical principles, with the power of the keys being a significant theological concept. Questions for Reflection: How does the parable of the wheat and tares inform our understanding of who belongs to the true Church? What are the implications of church discipline and excommunication for individual believers? How can Christians discern the marks of the true Church in today's diverse ecclesiastical landscape?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal delve into Chapter 17 of the Scots Confession, focusing on the intriguing subject of the soul and its significance within Reformed theology. They explore how the soul's immortality is perceived in Reformed teachings and what this means for believers. The conversation is both insightful and engaging, with Jesse and Tony bringing their unique perspectives to the discussion. Amidst the theological discussion, the hosts engage in a lighthearted banter, touching on a humorous marketing strategy involving Oreo-flavored Coke. This unexpected detour provides a comedic break and encourages listener interaction, as Tony and Jesse invite their audience to share their thoughts and experiences with the product through their Telegram chat. The humor seamlessly blends with the more serious theological topics, making the episode enjoyable for a wide audience. Overall, the episode offers a nuanced exploration of the soul's role in Reformed theology while maintaining a light and approachable tone. The combination of humor, deep theological insights, and a call to community interaction makes this episode a standout for both new listeners and dedicated followers of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast. Key Points: Discussion on the soul's immortality as presented in Chapter 17 of the Scots Confession. Analysis of the soul's place in Reformed theology and its implications for believers. A humorous take on the marketing of Oreo-flavored Coke, encouraging listener engagement. Questions for Reflection: How does the concept of the soul's immortality influence Reformed theological beliefs? What are some of the challenges and opportunities in discussing the soul's role in faith with others? How can humor be effectively used to engage audiences in serious theological discussions?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb engage in a comprehensive discussion about the theological intricacies of the Lord's Supper. They explore the significance of the elements used in the sacrament, focusing on the symbolism of the bread and wine and their cultural analogs. The hosts emphasize the importance of understanding these elements within the context of different cultures, considering what they signify in terms of sustenance and celebration. The conversation delves into the debates surrounding the appropriate use of these elements in worship, particularly highlighting the differences between unleavened and leavened bread, as well as the use of wine or grape juice. Tony and Jesse discuss how various cultures might interpret these elements differently, stressing the need for a fittingness that aligns with the theological purpose of the Lord's Supper. They underscore the importance of maintaining the symbolic integrity of the sacrament while also being mindful of cultural contexts. Throughout the episode, the hosts encourage listeners to reflect on the broader theological implications of the Lord's Supper within Reformed theology. They discuss how the elements of bread and wine serve as vital symbols in Christian worship, representing Christ's body and blood, and how their proper understanding can enhance one's worship experience. By examining the theological debates and cultural considerations, the episode provides a rich exploration of the complexities and significance of the Lord's Supper in Reformed Christian practice. Key Points: The significance of the elements in the Lord's Supper and their cultural analogs. Theological debates surrounding the use of bread and wine in the sacrament. The importance of understanding the symbolism of the Lord's Supper within Reformed theology. Questions for Reflection: How do cultural differences impact the interpretation and practice of the Lord's Supper? What are the theological implications of using different elements in the sacrament? How does understanding the symbolism of the bread and wine enhance one's worship experience?

In this enlightening episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal engage in a profound discussion on the theological significance and intimacy of the Lord's Supper. They explore its role as a spiritual seal and a un...

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore the profound concept of spiritual fellowship within the church, emphasizing its transcendence beyond race, geography, and time. They delve into John Knox's teachings, highlighting his perspective on the expansive and transcendent community of believers. This community is united in worship across different planes of existence, showcasing a unique spiritual unity that is not hindered by physical or temporal boundaries. The discussion underscores the significance of the Lord's Day, portraying it as a divine and communal experience that connects believers with those who have passed on. The hosts articulate how this day serves as a reflection of the permanent worship occurring in God's presence, fostering a deeper understanding and appreciation of God's power in preserving His church. They encourage listeners to ponder the nature of this spiritual unity and its implications for their faith. In addition to the theological exploration, the episode incorporates lighthearted moments, such as the humorous mystery surrounding Tony's salmon shorts and John Owen's legendary red boots. The hosts invite listeners to join their Telegram channel for further theological discussions, blending humor with deep insights to create an engaging and enriching listening experience. Key Points: Exploration of John Knox's teachings on spiritual fellowship and transcendent unity within the church. Emphasis on the unique nature and significance of the Lord's Day in connecting believers across time and existence. Incorporation of humor through discussions about Tony's salmon shorts and John Owen's red boots, encouraging listener engagement. Questions for Reflection: How does the concept of spiritual fellowship transcend physical and temporal boundaries in your understanding of faith? In what ways does the Lord's Day enhance your spiritual connection with other believers, both present and past? What role does humor play in your engagement with theological discussions, and how can it enhance your understanding of complex topics?