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In this touching episode, dive into the transformative world of nature therapy with Taylor Eagan and the Nature Connection team. Explore how they use nature to heal and boost mental health, igniting responsibility and trust with at-risk youth through therapeutic animal interactions. Discover moving tales of personal growth, like a young boy overcoming his fears with a bearded dragon. Uncover the value of small, everyday connections with nature- so important in our fast-paced world! Embrace the ripple effect of positivity the program instills in those battling disabilities and degenerative diseases. Navigate the hurdles in making such impactful programs accessible to all. Lastly, connect with Taylor and her colleagues as their own lives are profoundly changed by these life-affirming encounters. This episode beautifully encapsulates the transformative power of nature. Taylor Eagan is Program Director for The Nature Connection. She is a biologist, animal welfare advocate, educator, and gardener. Podcast Transcript Pat: Fill To Capacity, crazy good stories and timely topics. Podcasts for people too stubborn to quit and too creative not to make a difference. Inspiring, irreverent, and informative. Stay tuned. Hi, I'm Pat Benincasa, and welcome to Fill To Capacity! Pat: Today's episode: "Bringing the Outside, Inside: Nature's Path to Healing." My guest is Taylor Eagan. Taylor is a biologist, animal welfare advocate educator and gardener, and she is Program Director for the Nature Connection, where she designs and evaluates accessible and therapeutic programs utilizing plants and animals for people of all abilities and backgrounds. Well, welcome Taylor. I'm so happy to have you here. Taylor: I'm glad to be here. Pat: I'd like to start by giving our listeners a little bit of background. The Nature Connection was founded in 1983 and is located in Concord, Massachusetts. Now that's Middlesex County and the Greater Boston area? Okay. Their mission is to improve the wellbeing of individuals and communities through the therapeutic use of nature, by bringing the outside, inside through plants, animals, and natural materials to people with limited or no access to the outside world. Programs are delivered to at risk youth, people with disabilities, and older people with Alzheimer's and dementia. I love on your website the quote, "We bring, nature. Nature does the rest!" Pat: I'd like to start with the Nature Connection's mission of using nature therapeutically to improve the wellbeing of individuals and communities. Taylor, what does using nature therapeutically mean? How's it done and how's that different from other forms of therapy? Taylor: Yeah, it's a great place to start. It's very similar, I think, to maybe where art, music, dance therapies were about 20 years ago when they were kind of coming onto the scene and gaining popularity. And I think the pandemic has really helped shed light on how important nature is for our wellbeing. How important it is for us to be able to continue to get outside. And it's really come into the mainstream, the importance that it has in our mental health. And there's eco psychology and nature therapy and green therapy. It's got all these different names right now, but it's popping up in all of these different places and we know it's important. That's why there's therapy dog programs and forest bathing. And why, on a stressful, crazy, hectic day, you take a minute to go outside and breathe or take a walk, pet the dog. Taylor: So, it's something that we know is really important for us, for humans. And there's ... studies out there that are really starting to show it. Some, going all the way back again to 1983, actually with Ulrich's study of "View Through A Hospital Window," where patients who had had surgery, if they had a view outside of nature from their hospital bed, they recovered faster than patients who didn't. And we know it, historically, hospitals had garden centers and we knew it for a really long time, as humans, human society. And then we seem to have forgotten it with all of our technology, but it's coming back. That's the important part. It's coming back. Taylor: One of the things that I think nature is able to do is, it is so integral to our biology. We are a part of this planet, and we are a part of our ecosystems and where we are. So being able to have time with nature, feeling connected to nature. And Nature Connectedness is a real phrase, not just the name of our organization, but in being able to have that, it brings a sense of community and belonging along to those of us who are able to spend time in it. And that in itself, I think is healing. Pat: Yeah. I love how you bring in that macro eco connection, but yet you're a one-on-one organization. I love that duality. And so that segues into my next question. Can you highlight some specific examples of how your programs have positively impacted people with disabilities, Alzheimer's, or dementia? Taylor: It happens in a group setting, and we're very much talking on, we're designing our programs on an ecosystem level. So, bringing in the beach or the meadow or the forest. But then it does break down into these one-on-one interactions during the program hour. And that's when our, our staff and our volunteers are able to talk to participants. And we're talking about folks with disabilities. We're talking about folks with dementia and Alzheimer's, people with behavioral challenges and concerns. So, the person on your left is nowhere near the same as the person on your right. And you really need someone to be right there to talk with that participant about where they're at, what's connecting them to this experience. And we're able to really then, meet them where they're at. That very buzzword phrase these days, "meet them where they are" in terms of their interest and ability.  Taylor: And if it's an ocean program, it's summer right now we're doing a lot of ocean programs. We might have some hermit crabs with us. And for some participants, all that we're doing is really looking at how incredible that seashell is on the hermit crab's back and feeling the texture and just right there in the moment, exploring with our senses. And that's the moment. And it's amazing. Beautiful. Wonderful. But the next person might really wanna get into the science of this and like, well, how does the hermit crab fit in there? And we can talk about how the tail like curves in and holds onto that shell and how they need to change the shells as they grow. And that's within the same program. That's two different participants right next to each other. And so, we're able to really make meaningful connections with our program participants wherever it is that they're at, and whatever would be really meaningful and engaging for them at that time. Pat: So, your staff and volunteers really have to have a refined E.Q., Emotional Quotient in order to read what's going on with each individual and sense what will be helpful for that person. Taylor: Yeah. There's a reason why these programs are not everywhere. It is a huge resource and not just the time and the money, but for the people power to make it happen. To be able to sit there and converse, take the time, which sounds like should be a no brainer, but in today's fast-paced society, it so often gets missed to just sit and take the time and talk with someone and figure out where it is that they're at, and hear their stories and their experiences and hold that space for them, so that they can have that moment. Pat: Now ,I taught Art at an Arts high school and art programs in college. And so, I'm of course youth focused. I'm just gonna fess up right now. And I'd like to talk about your youth At Risk Youth Program. Now, during the pandemic, teen mental health issues, soared and, an American Psychological Association study found that during the pandemic depression and anxiety in youth doubled compared to pre pandemic levels. Now with that said, Taylor Youth at Risk are already in challenging situations. How has your program impacted these kids? So, two ways. The first way is our traditional, you know, we're traveling out, we're bringing, doing this sensory exploration therapeutic nature program that builds nature connectedness through repeated sensory exploration. It activates that parasympathetic nervous system to relax, renew that stress reduction of nature. There's that aspect to it. But something that we actually started just before Covid and we've been able to get back up and running, is we have a couple of critters, nothing crazy, some snails, a snake, some Madagascar Cockroaches that live with us at Nature Connection. Pat: Excuse me. Of course, everyone has Madagascar Cockroaches! Okay. I'm sorry, I just had to butt in and say that. Please continue. Taylor: They're really very cool. They can get up to like two, three inches long. So, they're, they're great insects when you're like trying to really look at an insect, especially for someone that has maybe some visual impairment or something like that. But yeah, you get that kinda like, ew factor as well around Halloween. But anyways, we have some critters that we have that live with us here at Nature Connection that need to be taken care of. And yeah, we have a huge collection of plants as well, to be taken care of. So, we've started a volunteer program, which to me is really just like a program in reverse that we're doing where we have specifically set aside blocks of time for kids in group homes or special education or therapeutic schools to come and volunteer with us to help take care of these animals. Taylor: You know...on our end, it's similar to a program 'cause we need to have a dedicated staff member there to kind of walk through and go with them. But it flips the script a little bit, right? We're not just showing up and we're like, hey, explore some nature. We're like, Nope, this is really meaningful. We need to take care of the animals. It has a real purpose and real meaning. Put it on an activity resume, put it on your resume for work experience. And our organization, our staff are coming with the understanding that these kids are coming to us from these particular backgrounds where it's challenging. And one day, they might not be able to show up. They might be having behavior challenges, whatever's going on. It doesn't mean that you're fired, it doesn't mean that you can't come back, we know that. So, it's really providing a stepping stone in their integration into the community that they're in. So that's been a really amazing program. Pat: So, they come in and their job is to take care of, let's say the Madagascar Cockroach or the snake or the snails. So, they come in, they do their part to take care of it. And what I'm struck by is that at the heart of that is learning to trust, that you guys are setting up a wonderful platform, much like teachers do. You have to earn the trust of your students to have any kind of learning happen. And ... they have to work, it's like something that they can feel proud of that, yeah, I'm taking care of the snails or I'm doing this. So that's really a phenomenal approach that they come in and participate. Taylor: Yeah, it's great. And they get to spend time with the animals and work with them. So, it's a win-win, win all way around. Pat: Well then, Taylor, can you describe a powerful, memorable experience where the Nature Connection program pushed beyond the boundaries of someone's life and brought them joy? Taylor: Oh, yeah. One story that's coming to mind was me personally out on a program a couple years back. There was a little boy, he's in a, in a group home. It was a, a residential therapeutic school. So, he lived there, went to school there with 12 other boys, and we would come in once a month. And this particular program, we had a bearded dragon with us. His name was Jim. He is the chillest bearded dragon I've ever met. Would just flop and sit there and really just let the kids ooh and awe over him. But this little boy was very afraid to pet him. So, we went through this whole process where I put my hand in the way, kind of blocking his head, and Jim was very accommodating and let us put a little wash rag over his face. Taylor: So, it was like, there's no way that he is gonna bite you. But even if he wanted to, no way this is gonna happen. And little boy reached out and he did pet Jim. He touched him very, very lightly, but like, just this huge explosion of joy in that moment. High fives all around. He reached out and he challenged himself and did this thing that was so scary, pushed his boundaries. And one of my favorite quotes is, "A mind stretched by a new experience can never return to old dimensions.” Right? He stretched, had a new experience, touched that bearded dragon. The best part for me is we came back the next month with a chicken and he comes running up and he is so excited. What did you bring? What did you bring? And I tell him, we've got a chicken. And he is like, all right, I'm gonna pet it. And I know that I can, because I did it with Jim, the bearded dragon. So, he took that like amazing explosion in the moment, but then carried it forward into that next month, into that next program. And, you know, that he took that into other things as well. I faced my fears, I did it, and it worked. Pat: What a beautiful life-changing moment. You mentioned a little bit earlier that how we've become disconnected from nature in our everyday life. And I was thinking about it getting ready for this podcast that people have to plan special trips, or they scroll through social media just to catch a glimpse of nature. And when you think of urban dwellers who can go for weeks without seeing a tree, it's as if we've put nature outside of ourselves as if we made it separate from our very existence. What can we do to bring nature back into our lives? Taylor: Yeah. It's such a real problem. I think that this is a fundamental issue, not only when we think of ourselves and our mental health and wellbeing, but when we think of things like climate change and some of the larger issues facing our planet. Because if, if you don't personally have a connection with nature, it is that much harder to get invested. And to care about some of these larger issues. So, this idea of nature connectedness, exactly what you described, you know, there is a scale of how connected do you see yourself with nature, how integral is it to who you are and your day-to-day life. And it's, it is something that we build over time through repeated sensory exploration with nature. So think little kids running around, outside playing, pulling up grass, looking for caterpillars, turning over rocks that builds this idea. But you need it over and over again. It's like going to the gym. You can't just do it once and expect to be good forever. It's something that every day would be the correct amount. Taylor: I don't think it has to be as big as, as sometimes we think that it does. You don't have to take a trip to the beach. You don't have to go climb a mountain. You could just go sit outside on your lunch break, take an extra minute on your trip to the car, to, to look up and see the clouds or the stars, depending on what time of day it is. when you, when you hear a bird song, you know, stop for a second and listen just for a second. And just like those teeny, little pieces start sneaking their way into your life. Yeah. Pat: You know, you, you touched on it earlier, that C O V I D caused many people to discover nature. One way I would phrase it is that many people discovered their backyards. And I have to say for myself, I'm an artist. My studio I built is 12 feet from the house. And I put a green room, I built a green room in there with shrubs and miniature trees and flowers. But during C O V I D I would go out there and all of a sudden, I'm seeing the number of squirrels, the number of chipmunks, the bunnies. We even had ducks waddling through our yard. And so all of a sudden, I thought, how did I miss this before I looked at flowers and shrubs? But it was the, the furry creatures, the winged creatures that all of a sudden came to life. And when I went online, people started talking about, and social media, oh, my backyard, I noticed, or this animal came back there, you know, whatever it is, it seemed like, and C O V I D was horrendous. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. But as we're getting away from it, there were some dark angel gifts that came from it. And I think one of them was the discovery of, of nature. Taylor: Yeah. And like you said, your own backyard, you don't need that much space to start noticing. And I love that phrase that you said, “I notice” because you don't need to know facts. Nature, documentaries have us so trained that like you need to know your facts about nature in order to appreciate it. But you, you don't, you so don't. You can really just go outside, and I promise you, if you look at the same little square foot of dirt every day, something about it is gonna be different. You're gonna be able to notice something. Pat: Now I'm urban. But one of the things I've done, and it started as a way to, to just relax and calm myself. I go outside in my little green room; I close my eyes and I count 10 different sounds that I hear. And I thought, well, there's not that many. What are you doing? And you know what, Taylor, there were more than 10. So, every day there were different sounds, birds, dogs barking, whatever it was, it was my way of going into the now, meditating into the now, the world around us, the audio world . Pat: It was phenomenal. So, as you say, “I notice,” and that to me is huge. Taylor: It's amazing how much there is. And, and now we're like slipping into this conversation, getting on the fringes of mindfulness and how wonderful that is. And nature is everywhere. Nature is everything. It's this big raw material that is just completely covering our planet and we can put all of these different lenses in front of it. So whatever way it works for us, nature just becomes this catalyst for us to, to get more in tuned and slow down. And whether that's counting the audio, counting the blades of grass, petting the dog, there are all these different ways that we can interact and get into even cooking. People that think that like, oh no, I don't have connection to nature. That's not for me. I would say even your food is nature. You know, get into some herbs and spices, and think about where your food's coming from. And that in itself can lead you right into those connections. Pat: That's huge. You know, on your website, you guys have on there that you have over 15,000 nature connections. So, as I was thinking about that, can you tell us what are some of the long-term benefits that participants have reported back to you from their interaction with your program? Taylor: Yeah. I tell you; I do know of one girl that went on to vet school because of The Nature Connection Program visiting her group home. That is like one of those big, huge kind of long-term moments there. But I will say a lot of the folks that we work with are in memory care, have dementia, have disabilities and degenerative diseases. So that in itself can make it tough. You know, we're not seeing folks really get better over time, but what we do see is the ripple effect of a positive moment in the day. And even when we're talking about folks with dementia and Alzheimer's, their emotional knowledge, and abilities, they're still largely intact in the deeper parts of the brain. And so the facts of the situation, the fact that we were there, that we brought a bunny rabbit and explored a forest meadow in the summer, that part might go, but the feeling of connection and being in this room with bubbly energy and conversation and someone stopped to listen to your story about that time where you had rabbits all over your, that piece stays and you know that you have those little positive moments in your day, and that can change everything. Taylor: That changes your own mood. It changes the caretaker's mood, your family members' mood when they come to see you. So just enough of those small positive moments and you really get a really large ripple effect coming out of just goodness, joy, wonder all around. Pat: So, I'd like to flip the discussion a little bit. Can you discuss some of the challenges the Nature Connection faces in its mission to make sure nature-based programming is accessible to everyone regardless of location, personal abilities, or socioeconomic status. What kind of challenges do you guys run into? Taylor: I mentioned before resources are the big one, but any nonprofit in any social justice kind of movement and money is always the big one that you can point a finger to. But I think time and people, you know, we talked a little bit earlier where we're trying to have these very personal connections, need to be able to have these very personal connections. So, we need to make sure that there's enough volunteers, interns, staff in the room that are able to engage with all of these folks that come in. Our groups can be anywhere from just a couple of people to upwards of 20, 25 people in the room. And when we get that big of a group, then we need more volunteers. We need more folks with us to come in and talk with people. Taylor: So folks aren't just sitting there too long waiting and sure there's a really cool display to look at, but, you know, having the time for someone there to talk to and being able to, I think, find people as well that are willing to sit in that intersection of nature, exploration, naturalist, environmental educator along with that really high emotional capacity to sit with someone and carve out that space and the time for them and be able to overcome those communication challenges. Some of our folks, they really are nonverbal. They use communication boards, find gross motor difficulties. So, it really is each person that we're talking to, a different style of communication and being able to go around and talk with all of these different folks on an individual level in a room. It's a skill. Pat: Okay. Taylor, we are talking macro what the program does, it's obvious the Nature Connection program is incredibly inspiring in the way it just touches so many lives. Now, I wanna know from when you started there to now, how has it affected you personally? Taylor: Oh, so many ways, and I think it's an understated piece of this organization because so much of our focus is on our participants as it should be. But I have personally seen so much growth happen with our volunteers, with our interns, with our staff, with myself, where this is an organization that is so committed to honoring the individual, the individual's experiences, the individual's knowledge, their abilities. And so I think all of those other folks that are working to make these programs happen for participants, they get that benefit as well. You know, it's just the environment that's been created here. And so, they too get to feel seen and heard and, and I mean, that can make all the difference in your life. Sometimes when things get challenging, to have a community of people that you can come to and feel seen and feel heard and know that your experiences are mattering here and being aware of that and in tune with that. So, I think it's helped plenty of us on the, the back end of things. Just through life's challenges as well, dealing with the things that come up over the years. Pat: The life things. Yes. I love the back-and-forthness, I know that's not a word, but I don't care, the back-and-forthness of your organization, that the goodness goes out to the community. It comes back to the people who are participating and it's so fluid that way. It's so fluid! And it makes me think at the core of The Nature Connection is empathy and compassion. It not only brings nature to people, but you really go the distance to understand their unique struggles and needs. This is a remarkable alchemy that fuses nature's profound ability to nourish our souls with the means to reach those most in need. And it has the capacity to transform lives. You know, I love your passion. I love your enthusiasm, your energy, and I suspect that the people in your organization suffer from the same thing, this passion and joy in the work that you do. I wanna wish continued success to you Taylor, and to all the dedicated people who make the Nature Connection such a powerful force for good. Thank you so much. Taylor: Thank you so much for having us on, being able to share the story. You know, that's half the battle is getting the word out, and let people know that we're here and that this is something that's going on in the world. Pat: So where can people learn more about the Nature Connection? And Hey folks, if you're in the Boston area and you wanna volunteer or anybody wants to donate, where can they get ahold of you? Taylor: Our website is, https://www.nature-connection.org/ It's got all of our information on there. We're also on social media. You find us on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn. Pat: Once again, thank you Taylor for joining us today. And thank you listeners for joining us on Fill To Capacity. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please let your friends know and pass the word along. Thank you. LINKS The Nature Connection    

With Taylor Hale, Miss Michigan USA 2021   Little did we know when Florine interviewed former Miss Michigan USA pageant winner, Taylor Hale, earlier this year that she was about to embark on a completely different type of reality TV competition that would crown her the winner and almost $1,000,000 (one million dollars) richer. As the season 24 winner of CBS TV's “Big Brother,” Taylor won the $750,000 grand prize and became the first Black female to win the coveted title. Taylor also achieved another “first” by becoming the only series winner to ever be voted “America's Favorite Houseguest” by the viewers, which brought her another $50,000. The same charming personality traits and people skills that earned Taylor the title of “Miss Congeniality” during her pageant days also impressed her fellow housemates who voted 8-1 for her as the “Big Brother” winner. But although she eventually won the respect and admiration of her fellow housemates and the TV audience, the road to the winners' circle wasn't an easy one. Early on, Taylor experienced instances of bullying and racism from her fellow housemates. But in choosing to respond with grace and dignity by forgiving those who attacked her, Taylor slowly made inroads and ultimately earned the respect of her fellow competitors. Instead of letting someone else's bad behavior block her from achieving her goal, she kept her eye on the prize and focused on her dream of becoming the first black woman to win the competition. So how has Taylor's life changed since winning the title? Well… it turns out the monetary prize wasn't the only souvenir she took from her time in the Big Brother house. She formed a very strong friendship with her former housemate and fellow competitor, Joseph Abdin, who was one of her strongest allies in the house and a welcome source of support. But once the series ended, their relationship began to heat up and romance blossomed. If you want to find out what's next for the pair and more about this beautiful, talented and delightful young woman, you'll want to check out Florine's interview with Taylor from earlier this year.   What You'll Hear on This Episode:   What was Taylor's childhood like?   Who inspired Taylor to start competing in pageants throughout her life? What was it like for Taylor to attend George Washington in DC? How did Taylor get started in blogging and fashion? Did Taylor get started in politics while in college? Was Taylor popular or bullied in school? How did Taylor's parents help build her confidence? Did Taylor ever suffer from body image issues? How did the pageant world help Taylor develop healthy habits? What inspired Taylor to enter her first beauty pageant? How does Taylor train for a pageant? How many other women competed in Miss Michigan, and what are they like?  Is it expensive to be in pageants and are there sponsorships? Is there diversity and representation in the pageant world? What are the other contestants like? How does being in pageants affect Taylor's dating life? How has Taylor used her title to inspire others? What did Taylor enjoy most about pageants? What does Taylor do today professionally? Taylor shares some success stories from her work as a personal stylist.   Today's Takeaway: There is no single standard that defines what is beautiful. Various cultures around the world define the concept of physical perfection differently. But the truth is that real beauty comes in all shapes and sizes. It's important to recognize that genuine beauty is not merely skin deep; rather how we behave and treat others is the real testament to our attractiveness.   Remember that every day is a gift and the gift that we get from learning to appreciate and honor our own beauty, both inside and out, will allow us not only to value ourselves, but we can share the spotlight and appreciate the beauty of others. Think of it this way, the most beautiful gardens are made up of a wide variety of flowering plants, each one with its own unique appearance. On their own, each of these flowers is lovely, but when combined together, they make for an absolutely dazzling array of colorful blooms. Our individual differences are what make us shine when we unite together. I'm Florine Mark and that's “Today's Takeaway” and if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss a single episode.   Quotes: “If not me, then who?” — Taylor “These are just stories that moved me. I got to see who these women were from a holistic standpoint and I was completely sold on competing.” — Taylor “That's how I learned that you can still value beauty; you can value style and fashion without sacrificing your intelligence.” — Taylor “I don't want to be President, but I wouldn't mind being Chief of Staff.” — Taylor  “What's important to me is being visible.” — Taylor  “I want to make sure that I'm actually representing where I actually came from.” — Taylor  “Everybody there wants to be the best. It ups the ante for competition but you're never alone.” — Taylor  “It's beyond friendship. It's a sisterhood bond.” — Taylor  “I can't fix everything happening in the world, I can't change everybody's opinion of me. All I can do is be the best version of myself.” — Taylor “Not everyone's going to like me and if everybody does like me, that means I'm losing a little bit of myself and I always want to be true to who I am.” — Taylor “The body that I had at Miss USA is not the body that I have now but the eating routines, the healthy habits that I made, those are what's important to me and those are the things that will stick with me for the rest of my life.” — Taylor “Don't do it for the body. Do it for the health.” — Taylor “I want to be a human being first that just so happens to have a crown and a sash on her as well.” — Taylor “I think what we all do every day is pageantry!” — Taylor   Brought to You By: Gardner White Furniture   Mentioned in This Episode: Taylor Hale on Instagram @thetaylormack   Miss Michigan USA 2021 on Instagram

As 2020 continues to throw curveballs left and right, the only thing we know for sure is that we have no idea what is coming next. That’s a tough pill to swallow, especially if you are a business owner trying to plan for the next quarter, or even the next week. Consumer behavior continues to shift in varying directions, and every industry in the world seems to be in a constant state of flux.  With so much volatility, what is an entrepreneur to do? Taylor Holiday has some ideas. Taylor is the Managing Partner of Common Thread Collective, an agency that helps eCommerce companies grow from zero to millions. Recently, the companies he works with have been forced to change the way they operate. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Taylor takes us through what it means to build an antifragile business, and how that mentality can lead to a thriving business despite what the market or current environment has in store. Because, as Taylor says, there’s no point in trying to predict what the future holds, and instead, founders should be creating many different models so you can prevail even during volatile times. So what does that mean for your Q4 strategy? How should you be preparing for Black Friday and Cyber Monday? And what data should you really be looking at when developing a Facebook ad strategy? Find out all of that and more in this interview.   Main Takeaways: Never-Ending Qs for Q4: 2020 has been the year of uncertainty, and Q4 will be no different. Traditional planning for end of year events like Black Friday and Cyber Monday have to be approached with a new mindset, one that can adapt and pivot quickly. Companies need to put systems and plans in place so that they are prepared to take on any and all scenarios that might arise. Building Something That Works in Spite of You: Modeling and forecasting are tools that every business uses to help guide strategy, but neither are ever 100% accurate. Because humans are wrong more often than they are right, it is critical to set up systems that can survive not only when you’re right, but also when you’re wrong. That is the fundamental practice of being antifragile.  How The Past Predicts The Future: Drawing insights from historical ad campaigns is a double-edged sword.  When it comes to analyzing data, you can’t look too far back or too far forward. Yesterday’s ad data can help inform your decision for what to do tomorrow, but it can’t help you make a month or year-long ad strategy. What can be beneficial, however, is poking through the creative assets of campaigns from companies decades ago, pre-internet. Those are timeless sources of inspiration that can help you stand out from the uniform ad campaigns of today.    For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome to another episode of Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder of mission.org. Today, we have Taylor Holiday join the show, the Managing Partner of Common Thread Collective. Taylor, welcome. Taylor: Thank you so much for having me. I am excited to be here. Stephanie: Yeah, I'm really excited to have you here as well. I have followed your Twitter threads and I think we're going to have a lot to talk about today. Taylor: Okay. That's good. Now I feel accountable to everything I've ever said. So here we go. Let's see what I can dig up. Stephanie: Yep. I've looked at everything back to 2008, so we're going to cover all of it. Stephanie: I wanted to start with your background a little bit. I saw that you were in the world of sports. Taylor: Yeah, I did many [crosstalk 00:00:50]. Stephanie: And I wanted to hear how you evolved. Taylor: Another lifetime ago, I was a professional athlete. I played baseball in the Yankees organization for a couple of years, and that was my life for the first 25 years of my life, was committed to that pursuit. Then one day I got a call and they told me that they were no longer interested in my services and I had to figure out what on earth I was going to do from there. That sort of set me off onto the second phase of life. I'd like to think I'm breaking my life in this sort of 25 year chunks. I'm about halfway through the second quarter. Stephanie: That's awesome. What did you decide to do after that? Taylor: Well, I didn't really decide much. I was finishing up, so I got drafted when I was a junior in college, so I had some school to finish. I was sort of in the off season. I would go back to school and take them at a semester at a time. When I got released, I started trying to figure out, okay, well, what was I going to do? And I was a political science major with a minor in psychology, and I loved to argue, and so I figured, well, I'll try and be a lawyer. That was sort of what I was prepping to do. I was prepping to take the LSAT and head off to be a lawyer. Then I had a good friend that had been a childhood friend, and is still now my business partner named Josh, who was starting a company. In between class, he would let me come to their office, which was him and his brother in a garage, and print the orders off the website and take them to the post office, and that was my job part-time. Stephanie: Sweet. Taylor: One day, day one, there was one order, and then within a year and a half we had done 60 million in revenue and that became my business school, and how I got into entrepreneurship. Stephanie: Wow. That is crazy. That's really good growth, and I'm sure you learned a ton while working there. Taylor: It was wild. But it sort of met everything in me that being an athlete did. There was a team of people that I love, working towards a common goal, every day you showed up and had something to do intentionally to be better. I was single, I was young, I had nothing else to do. We just lived at the office, and it was everything. As the business was sort of growing, we got asked this question of like, "Well, this is a real company. What's your job going to be?" And they went, "Well, you're the young person. Why don't we figure out Ecommerce, social media, and you know some famous people, so how about influencer marketing?" And I was like, "Okay." Then I started Googling, how do you set up a Facebook page. And just had no idea what I was doing, but learned, got to play in a sandbox, where suddenly I developed a skill that mattered in the world. I got really lucky in that sense that they entrusted me with that responsibility. Stephanie: That's great. What kind of famous people do you know? Now I'm intrigued? Taylor: Oh, so many famous people. No, not really. I had played professional sports, so I had a lot of relationships with athletes and agents and people like that. Our product was built for that community, and so it was just literally Facebook messaging friends and being like, "Hey, can I send you this product? Would you wear it?" That snowballed really quickly. We ended up building an incredible athlete team with ... at one point, we had all four MVPs of the major sports. We were brokering deals with Kobe Bryant and China, Shaquille O'Neal was a business partner. It was wild. We got involved in so many things in that first business that we had no business doing as 26, 27 year old kids, and made every mistake you could possibly make, but just learned so much that has sort of been the foundation for what we get the chance to do today. Stephanie: That's great. Yeah, that's a really good story. So fast forward to today. Tell me a bit about Common Thread Collective. What is it and what is your role there? What's your day to day look like? Taylor: Yeah. Common Thread Collective is an Ecommerce growth agency. We help consumer product Ecom businesses grow from zero to $30 million. That's sort of the range that we focus on, and we do that through a combination of paid acquisition services, email, SMS retention and landing page development, and then creative for that whole customer journey. So, we really see our role as the guide for our clients along that growth trajectory that we've lived ourselves and are currently living alongside them with the brands that we own and operate. So, we sort of approach growth from an operator's mindset, which we think really sets us apart from a lot of marketing agencies. My job is to be the CEO of that organization. It is certainly a very different job than when I started where I was doing the work. I spend much more of my time now thinking about organizational structure and culture and hiring than I do about marketing. That has just sort of been my own personal evolution, which I'm learning to love. But yeah, that's what it does. Stephanie: That's cool. So how do you go about picking who you want to partner with, which companies you want to? Taylor: In terms of the clients? Stephanie: Yeah, clients. Taylor: Yeah, so our mission for Common Thread Collective and really for our whole ecosystem, and I think Andrew talked a little bit about this on your podcast, is to help entrepreneurs achieve their dreams. That is our heartbeat. It's what drives us because we ourselves have experienced the transformation that comes from being a successful entrepreneur, what it offers you in life. So, we love to partner specifically with founders and entrepreneurs who are in that range of business. Usually, when clients come to us, they're somewhere between two to 10 million in revenue, and we're helping them sort of reach that next phase of growth along the way. That connection to the person who is passionately committed to the product or idea that they have is what motivates us. It's what keeps us engaged, because the reality is, when you work at an agency, you're not going to love every product that you're working on. Taylor: You're not going to care as deeply as the founder about hair care and sports wear and fitness equipment and beauty products and vitamins. There's just no way, but what we learn is that, what really works is when we care about the people. That's when our people internally are the most inspired, that's when they wake up in the middle of the night and think about ideas for the product, is that when they fall in love with the humans on the other side of it. Stephanie: Yeah, that's great. I want to jump right into something I've been following. You were discussing a little bit about how brands should be approaching holiday season, Black Friday, Cyber Monday, and how they should be thinking about their marketing and advertising efforts. I think it was on Twitter, maybe as an email thread, but I was hoping we could dive right into that, because we hadn't actually talked about that on the podcast so far, and I think it's a perfect time to kind of discuss how you think brands should be prepping for Black Friday and Cyber Monday and how it's different than in the past. Taylor: Yeah, absolutely. This is a crazy time, right? It's never been a more volatile moment in the history of Ecommerce, which is not necessarily the longest history in the world. I would put it right up there with every business season in our country's history, certainly in terms of the volatility of the moment. When you think about trying to forecast into an environment that is this volatile, there's huge error bars on any prediction that you're going to make as a business owner. If you think about some of the things that we're looking at, as we think about Q4, is retail going to be open? Are people going to be able to shop in stores? We have no idea? Is the USPS going to be able to handle the influx of demand on the infrastructure? We have no idea. Taylor: What is the social position of our country going to be after this election? We have no idea. As you think about that, what you have to sort of agree or accept is the idea that whatever you think is going to happen is likely going to be wrong. What that means is that, unlike years before, where we were in a more stable environment, you need to have plans that account for different possibilities. As you think about something like your Black Friday promotion, which in years past, maybe a very simple exercise of just going well, we're going to try and bundle some products and do a discount, you need to consider the possibility, well, what happens, what would our discount be if USPS doubled their rates? Would we still be able to offer and afford free shipping? Taylor: I would start to have multiple plans. The same is true for the tone of your messaging. If we come out of an incredibly hostile election on November 4th, and three weeks later we're in holiday season, and the country's significant unrest, what is the right message for your brand to have to sell products into that environment? Rather than trying to guess which one is going to be accurate, I would begin to have a multitude of plans for this moment in ways that we've never really had to consider that level of volatility before. That's one of the big things we're talking with our clients about, is this idea of how do you deal with the idea that you are most likely going to be wrong about whatever you think is going to happen in the future? Stephanie: Yeah, that's really good. I like the idea of making scenarios so you don't have to predict the future. How are you thinking about advertising? I think you were mentioning that you can actually prep in a way that you know it's going to be expensive to advertise during those times, and so how brands can actually start prepping early so maybe they're not being met with these really high costs. Taylor: Yeah. I would just contend that I don't actually know that it's going to be expensive. I think that's a theory that people have, is this idea that big retailers are going to be allocating a bunch of money into the platform and CPMs are going to be through the roof. But we have seen really dramatic things happen where like, last time when the pandemic got peaked in April, all of a sudden cell phone usage goes through the roof, the inventory allotment for ads goes really high, CPMs plummet. The idea that we know for sure, this is, again, sort of that idea of the contingency planning, I think is really hard. What that means, and I think what you're driving me towards is this idea that, how do I build revenue in a more predictable fashion when the ad environment could be incredibly volatile? Taylor: What I would say is that, when I think about forecasting, we described Ecommerce forecasting like a layer cake. The base layer, the foundation with the least variability is your existing customer set. You know that when you acquire a customer, they're going to produce future revenue for you as well as present revenue, and they do that really predictably. It's not subject to CPMs, it's not subject to the levels of volatility based on any sort of thing. So you can always start by my existing customer side is going to produce future revenue, and you can look at cohort specific LTV data and figure out exactly how much future revenue. That's the foundation of your forecast. Then the next layer is owned audiences. If I think about like organic SEO, my keyword rank of position two on keyword, CrossFit sports bra is going to produce for me a certain volume of traffic that will lead to revenue. Taylor: That's more predictable, even than advertising CPMs. The same thing with my remarketing traffic is going to be more predictable than my prospecting traffic. My email database that I've collected ahead of the moment that aren't yet customers, but they're people that I can speak to for free is subject to less volatility than those environments. The more that ahead of this Black Friday, Cyber Monday, you can develop owned audiences of communication that allow you to forecast more accurately your future revenue, the better position you're going to be in, and the less subject to that crazy volatility you're going to be. The end tactic there, out of that sort of ideology, is that right now you should be accumulating as many emails and YouTube subscribers and Instagram followers and website visitors that you possibly can to help you build a foundation for that future revenue in a way that's less volatile. Stephanie: Oh, I love that. Are there any specific examples of creative campaigns that you're working on with your brands right now, or that you know of? Taylor: Yeah. So, one of the big things that we love as a vehicle for this is quiz funnels. A lot of our brands are running these quiz funnels, and what I mean by that is you come to the website and there's like, hey, let me ask you some questions to help make a perfect product recommendation to you. And it's email gated. So, you're saying, hey, give us your email, and at the end of this, we'll send you a specific product recommendation. So, what that does, what we've been able to see is that, with many of these quiz funnels, you're able to prospect at virtually the same return as your general campaigns, but you're collecting emails at four to five to six X the rate. In those examples, what you're doing is you're almost able to match your present value, but you're banking a lot more future revenue off of all of those owned audience emails that you're capturing. Taylor: That's one example of the way that we think about this, of like, not just like the singularity of how much revenue I'm making now, but what additional assets are being accumulated to drive future value. Another example I would use, and this is something we talked a lot about last year, is that website traffic. So, when you go to do remarketing, which most of your revenue in the holiday period, specifically Black Friday Cyber Monday, is going to be driven out of your remarketing audiences. What that means is that website traffic today has a high future value. The more website traffic you can generate now, the better. Let's say you have two Facebook ad campaigns, and one has a 50 cent CPC, and one has a dollar CPC, but the ROAS is the same, I'm going to give preferential treatment in scale to the campaign with the lower CPC, even if the ROAS is the same or slightly less, because that traffic is going to yield future revenue in a way that's really important. Those kinds of thoughts around, what is the incremental value of the audience creation, is a really important consideration. Stephanie: Oh, I like that. How often are you checking in with those ... when you're starting to do that prospecting, in a way, early, how often are you checking back with them so you stay top of mind? Taylor: The window that I think about, so we have our general campaign set up, which is that we look at our time lag report, which in Google is basically the average window that a customer will make a purchase in. You can look at and see, like, what percentage of your customers make a purchase within 24 hours, within 48 hours? Usually, almost 80% of your are making a purchase within seven days. For the initial consideration, our primary remarketing funnels usually attempt to encapsulate the primary consideration phase, which is usually somewhere around seven to 10 days. But in terms of this strategy, what we're doing is we're building an audience that, ultimately, when it comes to Black Friday, Cyber Monday, the widest Facebook audience you can look at is 180 days. Taylor: The second you get within six months, which just happened for us a couple of weeks ago, we got within that six month window of this. Now, you've got an audience that you're going to speak to again at Black Friday. I don't know that we have an intentional strategy to speak to them again at a 45 day window or a 90 day window. We don't. But I think that one, that's a good idea. I think that it might be worthwhile to just sort of warm them up again, but as long as they're within that 180 day window, I have the capacity to speak to them at Black Friday, Cyber Monday. Stephanie: Got it. That makes sense. So, what kind of mistakes do you see companies making when it comes to these growth strategies? Taylor: Oh man, that's a broad question. One of the primary ones is what we call the single account ROAS problem, which is this idea that most people are running their ad accounts on the idea that every purchase is the same just based on the cost to acquire the customer. Let's say I have a target of a two to one ROAS, which basically means that I'm paying 50% of the purchase price in acquisition. Well, the reality is that not all customers are equal to you, and not all product sales net you the same amount of dollars in your pocket. One of the things that we work really hard to get really clear with our clients on is the value of customers by different cohorts, so by first product purchases an example. If you think about every skew that you have in your store, every skew has a different margin and has a different return rate and has a different shipping cost. Taylor: Each of these three variables mean that, even at a fixed ROAS, so if you applied a two to one ROAS across every skew that you have, the net dollars in your pocket is different for every skew. Really understanding which products net you the most dollars as a business owner is a critical data element that I do not see enough people consider, and they don't design their ad accounts to reflect the variable value of the product. Stephanie: That's a good one. I haven't heard anyone talk about that as a mistake yet, so that must mean a lot of companies are making it. Taylor: Yeah. It's because it's hard. The information is hard to access, and it's hard to get granular visibility too. It's a much simpler decision-making mechanism to go, "Well, my blended cogs are 30%, and so if I get a two to one I'm making 20% generally across my business." That's a much easier consideration to make than to try and actually break it down by individual skew and get really specific on the decisions. Stephanie: Yep. Are there any best practices when it comes to developing spreadsheets or dashboards or something that can give you easy access to that information that you've seen your brands or yourself develop? Taylor: Yeah. We've built a tool to do this, to calculate cohort specific LTV data, to ultimately give us a view that we care a lot about, which is your 60 day LTV by specific cohorts. The reason we look at that time window is because most early stage Ecommerce businesses can't really wait much longer than 60 days to really realize the value. They just don't have the cash position to be able to wait longer than that, nor do I think it's really wise to wait longer than that. We've built something internally to do it, so I wish I could say like, hey, just go copy this spreadsheet and set it up, but it is difficult information to access, but you can do it. You can build cohort models for your business, but beyond just the LTV, the easiest thing to do is to really deeply understand that you did economics by every skew that you have. Taylor: What I would do to start is I would export every product that you have, I would mark the MSRP, so the retail sales price. Then next to that, I would put the cost to you as a business. Then I would put the return rate of the product, and then I would put the shipping cost of the product, and then I would calculate the net value of every skew. Just being aware of that for your merchandise set, like for the entirety of your product catalog will give you the kind of information that you need to then think more specifically about your ad account. Stephanie: That's great. To shift a bit into, we were just talking about how to grow a company, then track metrics and all that. I know you also have just been recently talking about an anti-fragile Ecommerce playbook. I was hoping you could kind of detail what that means, how are you setting up the anti-fragile Ecommerce companies, and what does that playbook look like? Taylor: Yeah. This goes back to this idea that we are bad at predicting the future. When I think about how I want to build a business, I want to build a business that thrives when I'm wrong. I actually want to accept the fact that I am not going to be able to determine the future, and I want to set up the business to be able to survive in almost any environment. That's sort of the idea of anti-fragile, is not just that I'm resistant to negative, but actually the negatives can be in an environment in which I succeed. The way in which I think that you're afforded the opportunity to do that is by having a specific set of attributes related to your business that allow you to sort of thrive in variability. Some of those are ... now you're going to make me try and quote my exact tweet to see if I can remember all of them, but one of them is high margin, right? Taylor: This is seemingly obvious, but this idea, the more room for error that you have to still be profitable, the more that the variability on your CAC, as an example, still does it affect you, and it allows you to potentially win when others can't. So, high margin is one. Another is, and this is a really underrated one, is great payment terms with your manufacturing supplier. One of the biggest things that destroys cashflow for Ecommerce businesses is obligation to front the cash for inventory. One of the best skills I think an entrepreneur can have is relational development and negotiation skills with their supplier to develop trust, to get to net 30 terms on delivery, where you're actually realizing the revenue of your product before you have to pay for it. That allows your cash conversion cycle to speed up tremendously in a way that's super, super helpful. Another one [crosstalk 00:21:19]. Stephanie: When I saw that, I'm like, that's huge. We have the same thing in media. People will start coming and be like, "Oh, we have net 60 or net 90 payment terms." You just can't take no for an answer sometimes, and just keep trying to build up the relationship and be like, "We really can't do that." Oftentimes, you'll be able to get down to net 30, just like you're mentioning here. So I thought that one was a really good point. Sorry, keep going. Taylor: Yeah, that's exactly right. You just got to think about your cash conversion cycle and how you're going to not be in a position where you have to sort or seek outside capitalization to fund when you're winning. That happens in Ecom because of the cost of inventory upfront, which makes it a complex cash management business. Another one, and again, these seem obvious, but I think we don't consider them enough is low OPEX as a percentage of your revenue. We have this principle, we call the four quarter accounting principle, which gives you sort of a directional guide to where you want your revenue to go. So, if you think about your top line revenues of business, we break it into four quarters. The idea is, if you want 25% profit, then your costs need to exist in these quadrants. Taylor: You need to have 25% CAC, so a four to one, what we would call marketing efficiency rating, so total revenue divided by total sales is 25%. 25% cost of delivery, which is basically the cost of the product from wherever you're manufacturing it all the way to the customer. Then 25% of OPEX, and that's your payroll, your rent and all of those things. If you look at your P&L and you look at it relative to each of those four quarters, you can figure out where your profit gets eaten up and where you need to go make improvements. So, the lower your OPEX is, so you can do this by not having a really expensive office by controlling your overhead in an employee count in smart ways. Really, just looking at how do I run this business as clean as necessary or as possible in order to give myself opportunity again, because there's going to be variability in my other places. Taylor: The shipping thing is a good example, where it's like, maybe my cost of delivery is normally 23%, but because of the shipping thing, maybe it's going to go to 27% of my revenue. If that destroys your profit, because your OPEX is too high, then it gives you a lack of options. That's a really important one to consider. Gosh, what else did I say in there? Stephanie: You also said diverse traffic mix, which I like. Taylor: Okay. Yeah, so this goes back to the point that we're talking about. Just like an investment portfolio, if you're over-indexed on any single channel, if that channel deteriorates in value, your business is in real trouble, but if you have a diverse traffic sourcing, and I think, so the question is, what's a diverse traffic sourcing? A good baseline metric is 50% paid, 50% organic. You're going to be able to survive volatility in any one of those channels, because you have a good amount of traffic from other sources. All of these things, make it so that when the inevitable problem strikes, your business is set up for it. Taylor: I think that we under consider how important it is to get into these positions of strong foundations of anti-fragility before we pursue further growth. Especially in this crazy environment where we're in now, where basically every forecast that I see every business make is wrong. The question is, what do you do? A lot of people want to try and think about like, well, how do I forecast better? I just go like, I think that's a fool's errand. I think attempting to predict the future, there are just too many inputs to do it well. So, instead, how do you build a business that when you're wrong, you still win? Stephanie: Yep. Yeah, I love that. I think it's such a bad mindset to think that like, you have to be perfect. I think that that's how companies do it. Even when I worked at other finance groups within companies, we were usually not right, which is why we did scenarios because you usually are wrong. Taylor: Well, that's exactly it. The quote that I always come back to is that, all models are wrong, some are useful. They're useful in their ability to understand where you're importantly wrong. When you have a detailed model, let's say I have a prediction that shows me what I'm expecting my traffic to be by every channel next month. Okay, so for direct organic search paid, search paid social, I have a prediction. Well, the reason that model is so important is not because it's going to be right, but because it allows me, as I'm actualizing the data, to understand where I am importantly wrong. As the data's coming in, I can start to see, Ooh, I'm missing my prediction in email by a lot, and it allows you to then think about strategies to go and solve that problem, where if you don't have that model, if you don't have that prediction, it's really hard to determine where the problem comes from. Stephanie: Yep, exactly. It's like the pandemic too, who would have predicted that? It's straight out of Missing, Taleb's book. That's a black swan event, you never would have predicted it, so why try? Just different scenarios, and a worst case scenario like now. Taylor: It seems a lot like I'm reading Antifragile as I'm thinking about the application of Ecommerce. It's like, well, how do you think about a business like that? What I see is I see frustration from our entrepreneur partners about their forecast being wrong, and they get really upset about it. I get it. It's really hard. You have to make decisions about this. So, it is an important exercise and you want to reduce the margin of error as much as possible going forward, but you have to begin to expect that. That's one of the things I think about being a more seasoned entrepreneur who have seen thousands and thousands of forecasts be wrong is I'm no longer surprised when they are. So, it just gives me a different frame of the problem. Stephanie: Yup. When people are trying to think of those black swan events or scenarios, how can someone go about building a scenario if they don't even really know how to anticipate it? They don't even know what to prepare for. Taylor: I like the idea of, rather than trying to predict the future, you should extrapolate the present. That's the Nassim Taleb idea, which is that, where are you now, and where do you believe you will be in the next month based on the present? If you extrapolate the present versus predict the future, then what it allows you to do is to think about, okay, my organic search is currently at 20,000 visits a month, and it has grown by 5% a month. If that continues, I'll be at 21,000 visitors next month. You put that into place, and then as you actualize it in real time, then you can understand what's happening. What you need to understand is that, the further out you go, the wider the margin of error becomes. Predicting tomorrow is a lot easier than predicting a week from now, which is a lot easier than predicting a year from now, because the number of inputs and variables just increase as you move out. Taylor: That idea of constantly re-forecasting and constantly actualizing your prediction and making adjustments, that's the skill, that's the exercise to continually get in the habit of doing and understanding where you were wrong. Then, doing your best to understand why, I think sorting out causality can often be sort of this thing that we chase and we make assumptions around. I think it's sometimes useful, but more importantly, it allows you to make adjustments in your next forecast, and then do it again and then do it again and then do it again. But again, no matter how many times you do it, you're always going to be wrong, and that wrongness is the thing that I think is really informative, and it allows you to ask the question, how do I make sure I'm okay when I'm wrong? That becomes the important thing to then go build. Stephanie: Yup. I love that. Yeah, it reminds me back in my Fannie Mae days, I used to do with a housing forecast, and we would literally be forecasting for like the next month, and we would have data almost halfway through that month and we would still be wrong. I think it boggled my mind how we'd be wrong, but even thinking of that, I'm like, there's just no way, once you get past a certain point, you just have to keep re forecasting, even if you're halfway through the month sometimes again. Taylor: This is such an important understanding about how we as humans process information. My favorite example is something I call the roulette run problem, where if you've ever been to Vegas, there is a reason that at the roulette table, they display all of the recent numbers for you. The reason is, is because what your brain does, when you see a bunch of reds in a row is you go, uh, well, the next one has to be black. And you build this relationship between past data and future data that is not real. We do this all the time with information as humans. We're just really bad at computating things in a statistically rigorous way about the future. This is also why humans are actually really bad media buyers, and why we try and train all of our internal media buyers to make as few of decisions as possible inside of the ad account. Taylor: Because if you think about what most people are doing inside of a Facebook ad account, is they're loading up a dashboard. They're looking at past data. So, they're looking at historical data and making inferences about the future without using a computer, without using a calculator, without so much as writing down chicken scratch. They're trying to make predictive decisions about how things like CTR and CPC and ROAS are going to relate to the future, and they're almost always wrong in those decisions. This is just like, it's really important to understand what the biases are that affect us as humans in our decision-making. Stephanie: That's great. Talk a little bit more about humans being bad media buyers, how are you all going about buying media? What are some best practices? Other than just saying like, "Okay, just rely on the platform, let it do its job." What kind of things are you guys trying out and doing and seeing success with right now? Taylor: What I'm going to push back on is that language that you use, I think diminishes the right idea, which is people love to say like, "Oh, well, yeah, just let the algorithm do it." They say that in a way that reflects that that's the simplistic decision. What I'll tell you is it's not. It actually takes incredible discipline to be thoughtful about allowing the computer to do what the computer does best and focus on what you do best. With our media buyers, their job, if you think about any machine learning tool, the key to a great machine learning tool is the inputs. Machine learning tool is just taking a set of inputs and understanding them to generate future outputs. Well, the key to being a great media buyer is you set a good structure of inputs. I'll give you an example. Taylor: Let's go back to this idea of different product values and different average order values by purchase types. If you were to export your last 30 days of orders and you were to build a scatter plot, where across every day, every dot was an order by AOV, you would have a variation of different order values. If you think about one of the most common mistakes I see in an ad account is you have a campaign that's bidding for lowest cost, which is the conversion objective, where you're basically saying to Facebook, give me the lowest CPA that you can inside of this ad set. Then in that ad set, what they will do is they will sell a bunch of different products with different prices. Let's imagine I have five different skews. I'm a jewelry brand, and they range in price from $50 to $500. Well, what product is Facebook going to favor if the structural setup is lowest cost and you give it those options? Stephanie: Yeah, the cheapest one. Taylor: So, you're building a structure where the computer output is going to be focused on the skew that likely doesn't generate you the best net outcome. That is a tactical media buying error that has to do with poor structural setup and understanding of the tool, that has nothing to do with the decision making of which ad you should allocate the budget to. That's the kind of thing we teach our people to think about over and over and over again is, am I setting up the right structure for the output that I want? Stephanie: That makes sense. You would instead maybe have like similar price products so they can all actually see the performance, instead of teaching the algorithm to, of course, always showcase the cheapest one because you don't have a budget? Taylor: That's right. Or I'm going to bid for highest value instead of lowest cost. Facebook has different conversion objectives I can set up relative to the thing that I want. The question is, and we play this game at our company every Friday morning called [inaudible 00:33:36], where I pull up an ad account and we go through campaigns and I make the media buyers tell me, what are you intending to accomplish with this campaign? What were you trying to do? Then let's discuss of whether the structural setup and inputs were right for that outcome. Did you design the system accurately to generate the thing that you want? Because Facebook's tool is incredibly good at getting you what you want, but over and over and over again, I see people design systems that will never, ever generate the outcome they want. So they're setting up games where the rules mean they will never win. Stephanie: Yup. That's really good lessons. Any other things that you've seen, like similar themes of ad buying, where you were like, I've seen quite a few people do it this way and it's wrong. Anything else that has come on your radar? Taylor: Yeah. The big other thing is just the relationship of budget to number of variables. One of the things, again, this all comes back to some basic statistical ideas, where if you think about ... have you ever seen a graph of how long it takes to normalize the data for flipping a coin? Like how many coin flips it takes before you basically get to 50% outcomes? Have you ever seen a graph that looks like that? What it is, is that like, when it's a two sided coin, the amount of flips that it takes to normalize the data, so in other words, the time at which it will reach the predicted outcome of 50%, it's somewhere, usually in the range, by the time you get to 100 flips, it's almost always going to be at 50%. Now, if you take a six sided die, okay, do you think it takes more or less rolls to get there? Taylor: It takes substantially more, because there's more possible outcomes, so the amount of time that it takes for the data to normalize is a lot more rolls than if there's only two possible outcomes. Taylor: So the same is true of the way that you build a campaign. The more end nodes in your structure, so think of an end node as an ad set or a campaign to an ad set to an ad. The number of variables in your campaign is going to determine the amount of budget that is required to get to statistical significance, to get to accurate outcomes. The other big mistake I see people make is they build these campaigns with all these end nodes, all of these ad sets, all of these ads and a very tiny budget. You might as well check back in three years and then you'll actually get a definitive result. What they do is they build campaigns like that, and then they make decisions on insufficient data. What that is, is it's basically looking at four flips of a coin and then saying, "Oh, it's 70, 30 heads. The truth here must be this coin yield 70% heads." Taylor: Instead, you have to build structures that allow you to get to accurate information quickly by having an appropriate amount of budget against the number of nodes in your test, if that makes. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes complete sense. Is there any ratio where you're like, for every 10 ads, you need $1,000, or is there any ranges like that? Taylor: Facebook gives you this information. They tell you that they want 50 conversions per ad set per week. That's what they need to get you out of the learning phase. There's a lot of people that are these Facebook truthers, that think like Facebook has all these ulterior motives to attempt to get you to spend money. I get it. They are rationally self-interested, but your success is actually in their interest. So, they will give you directional understanding of how to use their tool best. So, part of what they tell you is that they designed this thing called the learning phase, which is basically their way of declaring that the data that you're seeing is not trustworthy yet. When you are still learning, you should not act on this data because it's not actually predictive of the future. Taylor: But then when you get out of learning phase, now you're in an actual set of outcomes that are more predictive, they're more accurate, they're more deep, they're more true about the set of inputs that are there. So, the way to get out of that is this idea of ensuring that, based on your budget and based on your target CPA, you can get to 50 conversions per week per ad set. Because campaigns use a daily budget, if you take 50 and you divide it by seven, the formula that we give people is 7.14, which is just 50 divided by seven, so for your daily budget. 7.14 times your target CPA. Again, that's the payment that you want for the objective times the number of ad sets in the campaign, that needs to be your daily budget in order to get through optimization as fast as possible. Stephanie: Ooh, that's good. I'm writing down the formula now, so we can put it in our show notes. Taylor: Yup. Stephanie: Okay, cool. Awesome. That's really good tips around Facebook ads. I agree about the, like when you were mentioning the learning phase, we have our own ad network, and it's just the same thing. Our growth team's always like, "Hey, we need about $1,000 just to learn and then we'll let you know what the cost per click is." It's not just Facebook, it's other platforms as well. Taylor: That's right. People get frustrated by that because it's a media buyer, especially if you're a company that's charging on a percentage of ad spend, it's really hard for that to feel like anything, but a self serving piece of information. But the reality is, it just goes back to an understanding of how data happens. It's like, again, if you wanted me to tell you the results of flipping a coin, give me a hundred flips, not five, and it's the same thing. That's the understanding that we need to get to about how you get to statistical significance. Stephanie: Yep. So, are there any surprising campaigns that your team has initiated or certain kinds of ads that you were like, "That's not going to work", and they actually performed well? Taylor: Oh man, all the time. I'm so horrible at predicting what will work well, creatively in particular. Man, anything that I think is like a really interesting format right now. Stephanie: I feel like the formats right now are ... they have to be kind of different. There's a lot happening with the ad platforms because of brands pulling back and other brands dipping in on those ad platforms, but also just with the styles of ads that are going out. With the whole world, it just seems like things are different. So, I'm wondering how you guys are approaching that. Taylor: Yeah. Different is a good thing. The hardest thing is actually to avoid ruts. Because there's this horrible habit that we have in the media buying world. I'll lump us into this. We fall guilty to it too, which is the way that you generate ad creative is you go to Facebook ad library, you look up your favorite brand and you copy the styling of their ads, because you're making an assumption that they're working. But I'm a big believer in sort of the purple cow principle from Seth Godin, which is this idea that, the value of an ad deteriorates in repetition of its use. Every time that an ad goes out into the world and every time it's replicated, it becomes less valuable. That same thing happens with ad formats. We've seen it with influencer ads and UGC and the Mashable style, and these formats that have become really popular, eventually their impact is reduced as people encounter them. Taylor: I think that the key thing, and this is the biggest challenge inside of an organization like ours, is how do you produce a system that constantly generates novel ideas? That's what I would think a lot about. Again, I know this isn't the simple answer, where I can say to you, just use an ID story squared, whatever format, but I would be lying to you if I said that. Instead, I would really take space to challenge yourself to think like, one think a lot about the beginning of the ad. I know this is cliche, but it's just so true, is that video average watch times on Facebook are like four seconds for great ads. You just don't have as much time to say the thing that you're intending to say. It's sort of the David Ogilvy quote, "If you're selling a fire extinguisher, lead with the fire." That is just fundamentally true. Taylor: I would think about that as a core principle, but beyond that, you've got to break the feed. You've got to be novel, and you've got to figure out a way to differentiate yourself. People are scrolling a mile a day on their phone. If you plan to stop them and break them, then you've got to figure out a way to be compelling right off the bat, and a great metric for tracking this, so we have this principle that we sort of developed off of AIDA, which is a sort of legendary advertising hierarchy of effects model, and we've sort of applied modern metrics to it. So, if you think about the first one, the most important one before ... so with the hierarchy of effects model, they happen in sequence. The second one can't happen until the first one happens. I think this is really true of Facebook ads, which is you don't get a chance to communicate your message until you stop them and capture their attention. Taylor: A metric we focus on a ton is three second views divided by impressions. In other words, what percentage of your served ad impressions result in a three-second consumption? You want to see that number get close to a north of 40%. Otherwise, you are paying for a lot of people to scroll past your ad. Stephanie: Yep. I like that. I like having specific metrics set up for the AIDA format, which for anyone who's like, "What's AIDA?" Attention, interest, desire, action retailers. Taylor: That's right. That's exactly right. We assign a metric to each of those variables, so attention is this three-second views divided by impressions. Interest is video average watch time. Desire is outbound CTR. Then action is ultimately CPA or ROAS or whatever you use there. But the important thing again, with these models, is to think about them happening, they have to happen in sequence. What that does, what I love about using that as a feedback loop for our creatives is that the worst feedback that you can give to a designer or a creative is your ad's not working. That is so not helpful, because what do you do with feedback that says it's not working? What you can do is if, instead of thinking about the ad as a single unit, I think about it as component parts. If I say to them, "Hey, your three-second view to impression ratio is really low." Taylor: Well, now I can think about what's happening at the beginning of the ad. Or if I say, "Hey, everybody's dropping off at four seconds." Now, I can think about what's happening at that point in the ad. So, you can start to now deconstruct the actual ad into pieces that allows a creative to actually take it and iterate in ways that are productive. Stephanie: Yeah, I love that. It seems it could get a bit overwhelming if you have tons of ads running, like starting to just try and dissect, what's happening at the four second mark, or what's happening when it should be the D in AIDA? How are you thinking about, if the company has like a large amount of ads that they're testing? Taylor: This is a great question, because this is the number one marketer's dilemma, is that, what do I do next? There's a thousand million gazillion things to do. The answer is you sequence by volume of opportunities. I'm going to just start with the ads that are running in my campaign with the highest spend, and I'm going to iterate on those first because that's my area of highest potential impact. Then I'm going to sequence the rate at which I engage with my ad creative relative to their potential impact. That's a really important thing to think about is that, the sequence by which you decide to do things has opportunity cost to it. So, you have to make sure that you are going after the areas of highest impact relentlessly first. Stephanie: I love that. Yeah, really a good way to think about it. How are you thinking about maybe ... oftentimes, history repeats itself, how are you thinking about looking at historical ad styles or going back to direct mail, which a lot of people are doing right now since everyone's at home? How are you thinking about viewing history to maybe impact present day advertising methods or growth strategies for your brands? Taylor: Yeah. We have this course that we teach to all of our designers called advertising philosophy. The idea is to do that exact thing, which is to understand the fundamentals of advertising that are always true. So, we start with things like behavioral psychology. We read The Choice Factory by Richard Shotton, which talks about different human biases, to help them understand things that are just true of people, period. Then from there, we sort of begin to allocate that against the medium. We read a little bit on advertising and the history of advertising the change, the history of advertising, which are all just chockfull of amazing adding examples that are primarily prints from a legacy of magazine print ads, but they're so much in those print ads. If you think about how hard it was to actually create impact with a print ad, like someone had to open a magazine, they had to see the ad, then they'd to physically go somewhere to take action. It was way harder to be an advertiser there. Taylor: So, the copy had to be so strong and the visuals had to be compelling. There's so much to be learned from a lot of those principles that I think we underestimate the value of the art and history of advertising before we worry about applying it to the modern medium. So, we teach that to all of our people, because one, we want them to fall in love with advertising, because we think it's an incredible art form. A lot of times, for creatives, advertising is sort of seen as the thing that you do when you fail at being a real creative. We just don't believe that. We believe that it is like a true, true art form that reaches millions and millions of people, and if you can learn to really love it and to love the way in which you can impact human behavior with your communication, it can unlock like inspiration for you. That's a long winded way of answering, and it's not just as simple as direct mail, but you've probably realized by now my answers are rarely simple. Stephanie: No, I love them all. Every time I'm Like, ooh, that's a good quote. We should pull that one, because yeah, that's a really good point. Even thinking about when we're generating ads for Mission, it takes so much brain power to think about like, what's good copy, what kind of images should we use? What is someone going to remark about? It's a process. It's harder than even building out a podcast sometimes. So, I can [crosstalk 00:47:18]. Taylor: Yeah, as a simple hack, because I think these things are cyclical. If you are really creatively stalled and you're looking for inspiration, I would really encourage you not to use Facebook ad library as a mechanism for copying. Go look at one of these books, they're full of ads, and literally copy an ad from 1960, and think about the language, the imagery, and literally replicate it in the modern day. It will be more impactful than copying somebody's ad from Facebook ad library. That is a much better source of really potentially impactful ad creative than is the stuff that you're going to see from basically every brand on the internet. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really great. Are there any brands that you're watching that are actually always head of someone, where you're like, these brands all have the same ads, but this particular one is always kind of ahead of the game? Taylor: Yeah. I put out the other day, like one of the things I've gotten shamelessly relentless about is when I see something amazing, I go try and figure out who did it and try and hire them. So, TRUFF, the hot sauce company, their ad creative is as good as anybody's I've seen in the last few months. I put out on Twitter the other day, like I was citing that as an example. I just said, whoever did this, if you reach out to me, I'll double your salary to come work for me right now. Taylor: I think what they've done is really, really fascinating, clever ways of taking a sort of historically boring product in hot sauce and making it super compelling. One of the things, a lot of creatives feel constrained by the product attributes, like our initial entry point in ad creative all the time is like the product features. We just have this phrase that we tell our creatives all the time, which is you live in an infinite creative universe. You can say and do anything and make it relevant to this product. One of my favorite examples of this is there's this legendary ad from Gillette razors. It's a picture of an egg in a frying pan, and the headline is, this is an ad about razorblades. Taylor: The copy just talks about how the nonstick material in the pan is the same thing that they use to build the razors so it doesn't grab your face when it goes by. It's just brilliant. But the idea is like, it's a picture of an egg in a frying pan. It didn't come with the asset library from the client when they sent it over. But if you open yourself up to the possibility of telling stories broader than just the library of photos you receive from the client, and you really embrace this idea of an infinite creative universe, you can do anything. I think that's when you get to the really interesting stuff. Stephanie: Oh, that's great. I love that. Yeah, one of the ads that a friend's company is running, it's for socks, but it's literally a piece of corn growing out of two different. Something like very random, not relevant and it's their best performing ad. Taylor: That is the thing. It's like random. Again, you've got to think about somebody who is scrolling endlessly on their phone, and what is going to stop them Taylor: It's just about understanding, and this is the thing. You've got to be an internet user. In the same way, like everyone thinks about platforms like Reddit is this really specific sub-culture where you'd have this specific language. I saw a hilarious ad for a Reddit out the other day that understood this really well. It was Fresh Box, or one of the meal delivery services. The ad was basically like, "Hey, Reddit, my boss asked me to run an ad on Reddit, so I went ahead and took care of it for you." It's basically this meme app that Reddit users use, which is a robot blowing up the brand. It was basically the satirical way of understanding the medium so clearly, that they mock themselves in a way that made them endeared and loved by the Reddit users. That sort of ability to understand the place and the environment in which people are receiving your content is a real skill. Stephanie: Yeah. No, that's a really good example. I know we only have a couple minutes left, so I did want to ask a higher level Ecommerce question because from the interview, I just know you're so excited about predicting the future and you just feel very confident about it. Taylor: Do it. Stephanie: I wanted to hear, what kind of trends or patterns or disruptions are you most excited about right now in Ecommerce, or do you see coming down the pike? Taylor: Let's see. One of the things that I like, I'm sort of betting on for the future, is the global Ecommerce market. I think about the ... when anytime I see a marketplace where there is this pent up demand, that the infrastructure doesn't yet support, but it's finding a way to happen even before the infrastructure exists, what that means is that, by the time the infrastructure catches up, you're going to have a massive moment of arbitrage. Think of it like a wave that builds up that suddenly then released by some sort of technological innovation, and that's where there's periods of arbitrage before everybody else shows up and the competition's there. I think about a market like India, where you have this massive, massive market that is coming online really, really fast, and you have this problem, which is a payments infrastructure. Taylor: Nobody there has credit cards. Almost everything is cash on delivery, and none of the systems yet support the infrastructure for that delivery and payments processing. But yet, there's massive engagement from the user base. The second that gets solved, it's going to be a huge opportunity. This is true in a ton of other countries, where you have ad inventory costs that are extremely low, you have demand that's really high and you just don't have the systems that need it yet. That's a thing I'm watching and following really closely, as we already have clients that are seeing 30, 40, in some cases, 50% of their spend in international markets, where there's tons of friction in fulfilling the product. The second that, that all goes away, we are on the precipice of a truly global marketplace in a way that we haven't even begun to process. It's going to be really, really cool. Stephanie: Ooh, that is a very good answer. What other parts, or what other places in the globe are you looking at right now? India of course, is a big one next million users, everyone's focused there, but what other smaller markets are you looking at right now that you see a big opportunity, or your brands [crosstalk 00:56:20]? Taylor: Places where like, so the United Arab Emirates is anytime you ... especially, if you have any sort of luxury product, there's massive opportunity there. There's highly efficient opportunity. It's pretty volume constrained. It's a small country. Super interesting. I think Southeast Asia is super, super interesting to me. Nigeria, even from a talent standpoint in the Ecommerce world, that's a giant country. I think sometimes, because we have these geographically warped maps because of our Western centric view, we don't realize how big some of these countries are. Those are a few, Nigeria, Southeast Asia and India from a hiring standpoint, from a potential market opportunity standpoint are places that we're following really closely. Stephanie: And is good spots to watch. All right, so we have a few minutes left. I want to hop into a quick lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Taylor? Taylor: Ready, fire. Stephanie: All right. What's next on your reading list? Taylor: What is next? I'm going to pull up audible right now. Do I have a countdown on my clock? Shoot. Where's my reading app? Audible. Someone just sent me a book. Oh, I know what it ... Here, let me take it. I'm failing at the time challenge, but [crosstalk 00:57:36]. Stephanie: That's okay. Thankfully, we can edit this podcast and make it [crosstalk 00:57:39]. Taylor: Yeah, a book called Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents, by Isabel Wilkerson. It's all about sort of racial history in the United States and some of the things that have led to our own version of a caste system. This is a big sort of initiative for me personally, in my own learning and development right now, is sort of redesigning my own sense of history, as well as we've got a bunch of big diversity inclusion initiatives inside of CTC right now. So, I'm trying to do the work of my own education, and that's a book that was just recommended to me. Stephanie: That sounds good. I will have to check that out as well. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Taylor: Man, Netflix is so dead right now. It's one of the biggest drawbacks of COVID era. We just finished Money Heist, which is awesome, or Heist, maybe it's just called, which is dub from a Spanish show. So good. But I'm watching a show on Amazon right now called Upload, which is about this idea that like in the future, they've invented a way that when you die, they upload your consciousness into this digital world and you can interact with the present world. It's sort of a comedy, but it's ... I like those sort of futurist dystopian content. Stephanie: That's interesting. If you were to create a podcast, what would it be about? It can't be Ecommerce, and who would your first guest be? Taylor: Right now it'd be about trading cards. I've become obsessed with baseball cards in the last few months. My guest would be God to the name of Evan Vandenberg, who's launching this company that I might potentially be an investor in called [CollectX 00:59:07], which is basically, think of it as Robinhood meets DraftKings, but it's basically the digitization and tokenization of physical cards into a market dynamic that I'm sort of obsessed with. That's a weird nerdy answer. I'm sorry. Stephanie: I know nothing about trading cards, but that sounds very intriguing. All right, and the last one, what favorite piece of tech or an Ecommerce tool are you trying out right now that is either making you more efficient or you're having a lot of success with? Taylor: It's one that we're building, which is our growth data tool, which is just all around cohort specific LTV data. I have this super fun position of being able to hire a rad developer and a rad product manager and just build something that I want.that is just so fun. To have ideas in your head and then for them to be able to manifest themselves into the world, it's magic. That's my real answer, but I'm an obsessive Evernote user. I believe a lot in creating an external hard-drive for your brain as a really, really powerful tool. I think we were already sort of bionic people more than we realize, and expanding your mental capacity by taking great notes, I think is a serious life hack. Stephanie: Yeah. I completely agree there. All right. Well, this has been an awesome interview, so many good insights and tips and things that people can actually implement, which I love interviews like that. Where can people find out more about Common Thread Collective and yourself? Taylor: So, commonthreadco.com is our website. Then, I would say follow me, Taylor Holiday on Twitter. Stephanie: You are a good Twitter follow. Yes. All right, thanks Taylor. Taylor: Awesome.

You may not know exactly what Soft-Tex is, but chances are you’ve seen or even own a Soft-Tex product. That’s because Soft-Tex is a B2B2C company that provides products to retailers like Walmart, Amazon, Bed Bath & Beyond, Macy’s, and many more. The company specializes in sleep products, like pillows, mattress toppers, mattresses, mattress pads, or anything else you might need in your bedroom to help you get a good night’s sleep. But Soft-Tex doesn’t only ship to their retail partners. In recent years the company has upped its Ecommerce and drop-shipping capabilities in an effort to get even more in the lives of consumers. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Taylor Jones, the Vice President of Marketing for Soft-Tex explains how the company is creating a collaborative partnership with retailers while also exploring and consulting in the world of Ecommerce. He explains the ways in which Soft-Tex goes about ensuring successful product launches — including the exact number of reviews he thinks is the sweet spot — why SEO and product-usage videos are the ultimate keys to success, and the need for an Amazon strategy and what that looks like.   3 Takeaways: There is a delicate balance you have to strike when working with retail partners and also selling products D2C. You have to work collaboratively and across multiple channels to ensure that you have the products selling where you want them and not competing against themselves  Amazon is a price-leader, and in order to get any market share, you need to have an Amazon strategy that allows you to live there, while also ensuring that other partners have exclusive access to other products Product reviews and product-usage videos are absolutely essential to achieving a high conversion rate. Generating about 15 reviews and placing a usage video front and center are two strategies to implement to help grow conversions For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey everyone. And welcome back to your number one show on all things eCommerce, I'm your host, Stephanie Postles. And today we have Taylor Jones on the show, the VP of marketing and eCommerce at Soft-Tex International. Taylor. Welcome. Taylor: Hey Stephanie, thanks so much for having me. Stephanie: I'm excited to have you here. I'm feeling a little bit sleepy now, thinking about all the nice products you guys have, that are centered around sleep. I'd love for you to dive a bit into what is Soft-Tex International and how did you come to the company? Taylor: We'd love to hook you up first off. Stephanie: Yes, please. Taylor: So at Soft-Tex, we're really serious about sleep and home comfort products. I think for a long time, the company has been a leader in memory foam and cooling technologies and just everything to help you get a better night's sleep and live a comfortable and better life. I came to the company about three years ago. I have deep digital experience, worked for a company called Red Ventures here in Charlotte. Maybe you've heard of them. Then for another company in the call center space, Arise Virtual Solutions, and from some mutual connections found this role at Soft-Tex and started, really owning the eCommerce business for them. And it's blossomed into a larger marketing role, including e-commerce still. Stephanie: That's great. So how do I think about Soft-Tex? Because maybe a normal consumer, maybe hasn't heard of them. So how do I think about, how big the company is, who their partners are, how you guys sell? Tell me a bit about that. Taylor: Soft-Tex is really a B2B, to C company, and Soft-Tex is the entity that would be known to our retail partners. So think about Macy's, Bed Bath & Beyond, J.C. Penney, Walmart, Amazon, the whole gamut of retail, we supply with bedding, pillows, toppers, mattresses, mattress pads, protection, anything that is in the bedroom that you'd sleep on, it would probably make it. Taylor: We have a direct to consumer presence that we work with, bedpillows.com. We also have a robust, drop ship capability. So it's not just, we sell in bulk to a retailer. We do that absolutely, but we do, as a core capability, have drop ship to over 50 partners. Stephanie: Wow. So it seems like there's an interesting mix where, you're trying to market for yourself, you're doing direct to consumer, you have your retail partners. How do you think about managing these relationships and also not cannibalizing yourself at the same time? Taylor: Right. So I would say, our partnership with bedpillows.com, is emerging. It's a delicate balance for folks in our position, because we supply, our retail partners, we absolutely don't want to compete with them. Ultimately those relationships are very important to us and we build custom products. It's a very collaborative process with our brick and mortar retail partners and the branding that that goes into all of our different channels. Soft-Tex we have about five or six national or licensed brands that we supply product under or, or we'll develop product under a private label, to mitigate some of the brand conflicts or sales channel conflicts that may arise with selling our products. Stephanie: Very cool. And are you helping your partners when it comes to digitally marketing, the mattresses, pillows, are you helping improve their eCommerce strategy? Because I could see you having a lot of insights into different brands and their strategies and what they're doing to maybe share that knowledge and help each other out. Taylor: Absolutely. So the role we play on with the eCommerce team is a consultative role in that aspect, in that, we're able to see over the wall, we supply our products to the 50 different partners that I mentioned. So we can see some really interesting things that, maybe somebody over here is doing, in merchandising, assortment, with features, attributes, something cool on the product description page. And we can make that suggestion to someone else who maybe has not done that yet. Stephanie: That's great. So what are some learnings or key things that you see happening on these eCommerce sites where your like, here's some good best practices that anyone could implement or I see this working really well right now, or maybe it wasn't working six months ago. What lessons are you seeing through all these brands that you work with? Taylor: I think the concept of reviews syndication and review seeding is very important. Obviously, authenticity is critical and you don't want to see fake reviews, but when you have a new product, accelerating the process through which consumers can experience the product and write a review and leave a review, such that it exists is social proof, for other customers who see that product, is so important to getting a product off on the good foot. We've seen, in the home comfort space, 10 to 15 reviews, seems to be a sweet spot for a new product introduction to really help accelerate its growth. Stephanie: Completely agree on there. How do you encourage reviews? Taylor: There are review seeding partners out there, those companies that you can do seeding programs with, Bazaarvoice is a big one in our space. They have a really interesting service where you can collect reviews if you have a direct to consumer presence and syndicate those reviews. And they also have a network of folks that exists to, you can nominate your products and folks order it to sample your product. And those reviews can get syndicated out to retailers that, on the flip side are members of the Bazaarvoice syndication network. So we've seen retailers who participate in that, really scale up quickly on our products. Stephanie: Very cool. So they're not really having to do as much of the heavy lifting because essentially a consumer would review a product and that review can be used multiple times. Is that how to think about it? Taylor: Through a seeded review, say we did 10 reviews, those same 10 reviews would appear on Macy's, on J.C. Penney, on Kohl's, all at the same time, versus, if someone visited Macy's and bought the product and reviewed it, obviously that review would be owned by Macy's, and it will show there. So, as much as we can do to help reviews go as many places as possible, that's been very helpful. Stephanie: That makes sense. So when it comes to, I'm thinking about mattresses and buying mattresses, for a while, everyone wanted to lay on them and sit on them and see how they feel. And now with the market evolving, especially with the pandemic and everyone being a little bit more comfortable with ordering online, what shifts have you seen? Do you see consumer expectations increasing, consumer demands increasing on the sellers? What are you seeing happening behind the scenes right now? Taylor: For our products, from basic bedding, so everything non-mattress and the mattress, it's been through the roof. I think, folks want a fresh and clean sleeping environment, especially cleanliness is top of mind. With COVID in fact, Soft-Tex, my company announced a deeper partnership with Thomson Research Associates. They make an anti-microbial technology called Ultra-Fresh, the market is hot right now for all bedding products. And I think, from the customer experience point that you're hitting at, do you need to touch and feel the product in order to feel confident in purchasing it? Certainly bedding is a very tactile and personal experience and the same pillow or mattress that's great for me may not, may not work for you. Right. Taylor: I think we've seen folks through warranties and trial periods that the industry has, particularly on the mattresses, pretty much a hundred nights sleep trial guarantee, in some form or the other is a standard now. But from a pillow or top or other product standpoint, maybe there's not that trial period, but being as descriptive as possible, the images, the copy, using enhanced content and the importance of video is so important. Batched attributes, iconography, to really recreate that story and experience, doing everything you can without the consumer touching the product, and that way, I joke with folks at my company that I have the hardest job, right. I have to convince people to buy something that's highly personal and tactile, that they have never touched prior to receiving it. Stephanie: That's pretty tough. What best practices have you seen around creating videos? Because that's something that a lot of companies are leaning into right now, but especially for, a mattress or something, what are you seeing work when it comes to videos for the products? Taylor: I think the concept of video can take a number of forms. YouTube is the second largest search engine. So, you can do a ton of explainer videos or keyword optimized videos, to try and drum up search traffic to your products. But you can also leverage video, in particular the 30-second to a minute product video, to help drive conversion. And I think, that's been a huge thing that we've seen. The addition of video to product pages has scaled our conversion rate by an incremental 10 or 20%. It's hard to fathom, because typically most retailers merchandise video is the last piece in an image carousel, right? People don't like to read, they want to be told, and be surprised and delighted. Taylor: And so, leveraging that video format in a short, condensing it to 30 seconds, has been really big for us. And I think, stylistically, it's very on brand for us, the videos that we've done. As I mentioned at the top of the podcast, Soft-Tex is a very innovative company with emphasizing technology, cooling, I mentioned antimicrobial. So our videos come off as very techie, with graphics, lower thirds that pop up. So I think, making sure your videos are on brand and authentic to your brand voice, clearly and concisely conveying the product value proposition. In our space, it's really, how are we different than everybody else selling a mattress or a pillow? There's thousands of options. Stephanie: Yep. Are you making the videos for your brand partners, or are they all are using the same one, or are you customizing them where you're like Bed Bath & Beyond, this video works better versus Macy's they have a different clientele and we're going to make a different video for them or are they making their own? Taylor: Absolutely great question, Stephanie. For private label products, or we have some national brands that we offer exclusively to certain retailers, obviously those are customized, and we work with retail partners like Bed Bath & Beyond, and Macy's, on art direction, model considerations, we work with them on developing a storyboard and get it approved by them before we film it. Stephanie: Got it. That makes sense. So the one thing I was thinking about when we were mentioning direct to consumer, how you guys were going about that route right now. I was thinking about a very large mattress brand who I think recently IPOed and a lot of people are talking about their negative unit costs. And I was wondering, how are you guys thinking about that with your direct to consumer strategy? Are you willing to have negative margins to add a new customer, or how do you think about the digital growth around them? Taylor: I think the way we've thought about it in a lot of ways, is in the concept of, getting reviews on Amazon is so critical to helping ramp up. If you're giving a discount or something, that you may be selling your product at a loss initially to help gain those reviews, gain some initial sales traction initially. I think it has to be for a finite period of time, right? That you turn the corner and have a clear path to profitability. You can't just do it indefinitely. Right. But I think that there are definitely values to doing it, in that, you get your brand out there, you get some exposure, user generated content is so powerful right now. I think if the world is telling us anything, the power of social media and viral media, the same can be true for user generated content and reviews. If you get a really good review or a really bad one, people can upload them, they're always going to be there. Right. It's so important. Stephanie: That makes sense. Is there any model that you developed around we're going to, we're okay with going in the negative for this amount of time with this campaign, or is there any models that you build to influences these decisions, around adding new customers? Taylor: In terms of the review thing, it's still an algorithm that we're working out, what's the right quantity of review that moves the needle towards a product being successful. That's mostly in our space, right? When you're syndicating in a retail environment, so products sold across many retailers, because really the review is a key way to optimize, each retailer has its own search engine, right? Now, if you're your own brand, right? Selling direct to the consumer. I think it's a different calculus, you have your own tolerance with whoever's providing your investment. Taylor: If you're going to go negative for a time. What is the strategy? How do you become cashflow positive? In the industry, a lot of these, just e-commerce mattress in a box guys, is really, they're marketing companies if you think about it. There's a lot of articles, a lot of them are made by the same folks in terms of manufacturers and who pours the foam, et cetera. So it's interesting. Stephanie: That's really interesting to think about. I think I have three different brands of mattresses in our house, but I'm pretty sure they're probably all the same or made from the same people. Taylor: Or from the same cloth. Stephanie: I think so. They all feel pretty similar. How do you think about returns, for something as large as a mattress or, I'm thinking about furniture companies and stuff, how have you seen some brands lower their return rates? What are some best practices around them? Taylor: I think for the industry, for the mattress in a box, we've seen return rates average out between 10 and 15%. I would include basically everything in that, including the comfort trials and everything. Right. So, when you're a direct to consumer mattress in a box guy, that has to be factored into your pricing. Some other things that we've seen creative ways to save the sale, a lot of, one of the big complaints with sleep products is, maybe the bed is too firm. Maybe you'd send a topper or something to make the mattress more plush, as a method to save recouping, returning the mattress. Because ultimately, right, wrong or indifferent, in the mattress industry once somebody slept on a bed, you can't resell it. It's just one of those things. People don't don't buy used mattress. Stephanie: Good. All the things I'd never really thought about. So you were just mentioning how... I'm glad that you have to deal with that and not me. So we were talking about how a lot of the brands that maybe we think are unique, maybe are utilizing the same types of underlying materials and things like that. So they're kind similar. I saw that you guys sell on Amazon. Are you ever worried that Amazon could just knock you off and just make a mattress that's so similar, that it's maybe not beneficial to be on there, or what's your reason for selling products on there? Taylor: Well, I think, so many things nowadays, if you're searching for a product, folks don't just begin on Google anymore. There's a large contingent of the population that are Prime subscribers and really begin the product search phase on Amazon. I think you pretty much have to be there to have the share of voice, whether you like it or not. I think, for us, Amazon's a growing partner. Certainly it's hard, we have a lot of rebates and allowances with them, from a margin standpoint and I'm sure you've heard this from many folks. It's hard to find products that, you can be profitable. But, I think brands have to make a decision to have an Amazon strategy. Taylor: It is delicate. Obviously, retailers are very sensitive to being comped on Amazon. So it's a very nuanced delicate road that we walk. We have an assortment that we have on Amazon, but we also offer exclusive products to other channels, that we don't offer to Amazon. Stephanie: Got it. Is there any other advice that you would give when it comes to selling on Amazon, but making sure that it's beneficial, like you said, one idea is keeping exclusive content to where not everything you offer is all on Amazon, but is there anything else that you all do, where you're like, this works well? Taylor: I think, really it's ensuring that you're being thoughtful about your assortment, if you're selling on multiple outlets. We've learned in our experience that Amazon is a price follower. Well, we're a first party vendor. Obviously many of your listeners, maybe third party sellers were there. They set the retail price, but as a first party vendor, we have a wholesale price that we give to Amazon and there are, like I mentioned, rebates and allowances. But ultimately, they then retail it to make a profit or not, in some cases. Taylor: They're pretty aggressive in price scraping and seeing what others are doing and commanding the market share to come to them, if they see a lower price out in the market, they will likely try and beat it. So I think, you just have to be prepared, before you open that flood gate, if that's your strategy, making sure that you're ready to enforce, map or, D inventory Amazon as needed. I think, certainly if you're a third party seller on Amazon, you're in much more control of your destiny in that respect, as you can, you set the retail yourself. Stephanie: That completely make sense. In terms of SEO, I'm thinking it's pretty tricky for you guys to, you want your brands to be seen as leaders, but then you also want yourself to be seen as leaders. What SEO tactics do you all use for yourself and your brands? Taylor: Great question. I totally think, in our space in particular, features and attributes are more important than the brand overall, in terms of the search volume. Obviously, if you build a brand, which obviously we all are in the business of doing, you can build search volume that way, but, most of our SEO strategy exists around, trying to optimize and rank for generic keywords, based on the features and benefits of each product. For us, the brand story and value proposition is more of a conversion factor rather than a volume driver, if you will. We as a company have invested more in building a robust e-commerce interface, to target that non-branded search term versus building, paying money for our brands to be the most searched today. Taylor: That's not to say that, our brands don't have an impressive story and value proposition, but I think, part of that comes into cost, right. A brand that spends a lot in marketing, a direct to consumer mattress that may retail for $1000, queen size, roughly, you have a very similar product that we offer under one of our brands, through Macy's or J.C. Penney, or Walmart, Amazon, that retails for 350 to $400. Is there much difference in the product? I would say they're very similar in terms of features and attributes, but it comes down to advertising and price point, right? Stephanie: So what have you seen works? How do you win? Taylor: I think, again, each retailer is its own search engine and each retailer's algorithm for the sort that they show, when somebody types in a pillow, I'm searching for memory foam pillows or pillows or mattresses, is a little different. They take into effect or into account different factors, all of them leverage the trailing sales history, review quality. So, is your product good? Four stars or better? Are you getting reviews recently? So review count and frequency and recency. And then how does it relate to the query that was searched? Taylor: So, for example, there's a lot of backend keywords that we look to put with our products and we've really gone through and looked to optimize those to make sure that we're calling out things like, if a product is antimicrobial, it is tagged appropriately, or if it's got some certifications or whatever it is, such that, when you're searching on a retailer, if you're typing in the keyword or leveraging a checkbox menu, faceted navigation, that we're optimized to show as much as we can. Stephanie: Got it. So how are you finding new brands who would be willing to work with you on selling your product? Are you marketing to them? Are you approaching them directly, cold email? How do you find new partners in your space? Taylor: It's a great question. A lot of our business is, if you put it into two buckets, hunting and farming, it is farming. You bring new ideas and new product and new concepts to the same folks you've been dealing with. But we absolutely have hunting strategies as well. Honestly, I think Soft-Tex has taken a position as an industry leader of research. We've undertaken bedding industry research initiative, both of bedding buyer trends. We work with, many, many retail partners, and especially during COVID times, we've been able to survey our partners on what they're seeing and aggregate the results and provide that as a free service, that I think has been really valuable to folks in the industry. And then also not just industry or retailer, B2C information, but what the consumer is looking for in bedding today. We've actually just completed a large scale research initiative for bedding consumer tastes and preferences in 2020. Stephanie: Very cool. And are you plugging in some of your products, because consumers are very interested in cleanliness going forward and what do you know? We have an antimicrobial, I'm saying that wrong, but you know what I mean, product? Taylor: It's absolutely the type of a feedback loop that fuels our product development cycle. So in our bedding buyer survey, we just got the results back on that. As you might imagine, anything with fresh and clean attributes has been on a positive sales trend and we've for a long time had anti-microbial infusions and treatments in our products, but obviously we're ramping that up now, given the favorable sales trend that it's seeing. We're looking forward to, seeing the full landscape of what consumers are shopping for, how they shop, as that's in constant flux, especially with COVID and beyond. I think, consumers are more comfortable shopping online, increasingly daily, more and more orders, for all of eCommerce, not just bedding are taking place digitally. Stephanie: Do you think this is a longer term trend? And if so, how have you guys shifted your strategy? What things are you planning on doing differently or changing going forward? Taylor: I think, like I mentioned, we've done a great job at Soft-Tex in optimizing our product pages and the end retailer optimization. We are making the investment now, in that top of funnel or off of retailers sites discoverability. So we want people to have our brands, enter the consideration phase earlier in the process versus, just see them on a retailer site and click on them. So we're definitely investing there, because we do see the shift towards e-commerce, increasingly as a longterm trend, just rough numbers that I had looked at before this podcast. When I started at Soft-Tex, e-commerce was, just under 10% of the total business. Stephanie: That's four years ago, right? Taylor: That was in 2017. And I think, ultimately even then we were under-indexed as a company. This year, I think, just given how the trends are going and how we're pacing, it's looking, 35 to 40%. And that's not to say that the brick and mortar piece or other channels of business have shrunk terribly either. It's just grown that much, just organically as well. Stephanie: The pie has increased. Taylor: Exactly. Stephanie: With that much growth, I'm thinking about your tech stack now. And I saw a quote on some article, where you said, our approach is working, and we believe that the tech stack we've built is well positioned for continued growth. So what does your tech stack look like? What are you guys investing in? What platform are you using? What does it look behind the scenes? Taylor: I think, product information management and taxonomy, and really taking control of your data as the expert of whatever product you make, is so critical. Before I started, all of our product data was in, 50 million Excel sheets, right. Now it's much more systematized. And also, not to mention, different retail partners require different fields and everybody's set up processes a little different, whereas, before that, was institutional knowledge and it lived with a person, now that lives with platform. So that's a huge process improvement that we've made. Taylor: Digital asset management is so critical, particularly from being able to rapidly get new images out to different syndication platforms, but also tests. We've done a lot in push the envelope on image standards. We talked about how we can play a consultative role with retail partners. We'd seen some really nice boosts when we added some batches to images, as trust symbols, like if something was featured on, Better Homes & Gardens, sticking that, in the bottom right hand corner. Sometimes that's been a little tough, because certainly main images get picked up in Google shopping and there's some rules against how much text can be in the image. Taylor: That worked well for a time, when we were able to get it approved. From a text tech standpoint, email marketing, that's super important, leveraging, and also of course social, being able to leverage all of our digital assets and brand voice and value, getting it out there consistently to the customer as well, has been really important. Stephanie: What metrics do you look at for success around, whether it's your B2B type of backend or your eCommerce platform, what metrics are you reviewing to see if things are going well? Taylor: An early indication, skew count. So how many skews do we have in our assortment and how many places are they set up? Obviously if we have a thousand skews, they should all be 50 places, ideally, right? For full skew syndication. Certainly not every retailer is going to take every skew that we have. A lot of retailers still have more of a curated assortment versus an endless aisle. Certainly I think, we see a value in an endless aisle, because of how we differentiate our products. Literally we try to create every product to be a little different, to have a little bit of unique feature and value proposition. So that concept that, there's something for everyone, right. Taylor: So skew count, a very important metric, ultimately total sales obviously, unit sales and how are retailers trending, particularly ramping up impression volume, how many people are getting to a product page and certainly for folks listening, they're probably like, well, how do you get that? Not every retailer provides that information. But you certainly can leverage tools out there, on Amazon, there's intelligence tools to look at, how many views your products are getting and other things of that nature. I think that, being able to just check that and see the demand for your product over time is very important. Taylor: Other metrics that we really look at, sale, when we give discounts, how things perform, because ultimately a lot of things come back to the law of supply and demand, right. We might have a price in our mind where we think something should be, but that's not the price that the consumer wants to pay for a product. Finding that right price that moves the volume, through discounts, just finding that equilibrium is interesting. And then obviously we talked about reviews a lot, review count and quality. The quality is a big feedback loop that we take very seriously, in terms of work with our quality assurance and customer service teams, to make sure that, we don't have an issue. And we're very proud, that our products have about a 4.7, 4.8 aggregate rating. Stephanie: That's great. Taylor: It's huge. I said at the top of the call, what works for one person doesn't for another. So you might think that a pillow, if left long enough to its own devices might net out around a three. So the fact that, we're at a 4.8 overall, is really encouraging. Stephanie: That's awesome. Do any of your partners right now, not having an eCommerce platform? I'm thinking there must be some people who don't, how do you work differently with them if they only have a retail location versus your eCommerce partners? Taylor: There are, sometimes e-commerce is challenging to jump into. It can seem daunting for folks that aren't doing it, because you're talking about things at the each level versus, big old fat POS, the way you retail used to run, right. You order a bunch to a warehouse and it gets distributed. There's a lot of implications to that, especially when you're talking about commitments for product, with e-commerce and drop ship the risk is inherently on the supplier or the vendor. There's no risk for the retailer, right. The retailers is like, Oh, sure, I'll put it up on my website, but you're inventorying it. Right. You're going to ship it for me, just when I sell it. Taylor: A lot of companies, that's their biggest objection, I think, is, without a hard commitment or a retailer to commit to bulk units upfront, if they don't have that, they won't offer it for e-commerce. They won't bring it in, because they don't have that driver to pull them into it. Because it's very easy, if a retailer's ordering 10,000 units of something, pepper and a few thousand more free commerce while we're at it. But if e-commerce is the first channel you're thinking about, it can be a riskier equation. Stephanie: Do you see that changing going forward? Do you see a lot of these brands thinking about now going online? Taylor: Yeah. I mean, even within Soft-Tex it's changing, right. We have now for, within the past couple of years, now digital first product, whereas, not saying that my e-commerce department was a recycling bin before, but pulling off of the success of things in brick and mortar initially, was really what drove eCommerce previously, which is not necessarily a bad strategy. But I think today, for innovation and new product, more and more stuff, if you're confident in it, you have to commit and leverage on e-commerce. Stephanie: I completely agree. So I saw you guys had some showrooms, I think, for your product. How are you all thinking about that? Taylor: We have permanent showrooms in New York and Las Vegas, and participate in market events where we host, the buyers from many different retail partners, so much of that. The importance of an in person event, has been blown up now through COVID. We went through a virtual market in March, which, obviously is hard to convey everything through a video, but, we had fun doing it and a lot of people really enjoyed it. That whole concept has been a challenge. Right? Being able to find that dedicated time to get in front of your customers and have them, if anything, particularly for stores, it's all about creating an experience to surprise and delight. Taylor: Those buyers really want to feel the product and experience it, to ensure that it's worth, that it will monetize that floor space, that it will take up. With the first touch point being a virtual video, that can be a challenge sometimes, but, we're adapting through virtual markets, mailing samples for, Zoom calls to review them. But it certainly has been different, it looks like, the Las Vegas market furniture show was pushed back.It's likely that, at least for us, it's virtual still, just given everything that's going on. And many of our customers are, you've seen probably the announcements, a lot of travel moratoriums. Some through the end of the year, they've already come out and said so. It's been interesting from that standpoint. I guess from that point- Stephanie: I can imagine. Taylor: I think home products, more folks will spend money, through e-commerce on home and other products, that they're not spending on travel. So, positives for us and for many others. Stephanie: That could be a good opportunity. I'm thinking of, these virtual events right now to sell to buyers. I think, I would just run and jump on the mattress and then just go to sleep and then people would just be interested to see if I'd wake up, that might pull people in. That's how I would sell it. Taylor: That's a very attention grabbing headline, for sure. Stephanie: It'd be like, is she asleep or is she dead, what happened or is she frozen? I don't know. Taylor: That's all right. Maybe we'll use that in our next market video. Stephanie: Great. I can be the star of it, I'm pretty good at sleeping and internet freezing, all of the above I'm good at. Are you thinking about incorporating these virtual strategies going forward? Is it something even when the pandemics over, that you're like, this is working well, we might try this out in the future and use it for, our initial targeting effort to then retarget them to an in person event afterwards. Or how are you thinking about that marketing strategy going forward? Taylor: I think it's something that, we're definitely going to do. It's something that we had been doing, I guess, even before. We would do video walk throughs of our showroom and our virtual experience with an industry publication called, Home Textiles Today. But for the most recent market, we produced the virtual market video ourselves. So, leveraging, either internal or partner capabilities, we still think it's very important to address that. There's always going to be people that can't come to an event, even forget COVID times. So it's always good to have that digital touch point to be able to send to them. And also, to your point, it absolutely can sit on our website and exist as a lead generation tool as well, for people to sign up, to see our latest innovation and then fill out a lead form and then go watch the video. Stephanie: There is definitely a lot of opportunity there, for content that is being created now that maybe wouldn't have been thought of before everything that was going on. Taylor: Right. It's a delicate situation, because a lot of what we produce for a trade show like that, and our competitors, is very future looking and conceptual. There is a level of security. Most of what we sell at a trade show is not yet fully commercialized. Sometimes it is, but in many cases it's like, this is new brand new technology and we're introducing it here. So, there's also a dimension of, yes, we want people to see it, but no, we don't want everyone to see it. Stephanie: That's got to be a little bit, get a little FOMO there and make it a secret. Taylor: That's right. Stephanie: So you have an interesting intersection between B2B and B2C. Is there anything that you wish existed right now in the eCommerce space or technology wise, or you're like, we're struggling with this right now, that you could see getting better in the future or that you hope to get better? Taylor: We have some partners now that help us provide really high quality CGI imagery. Obviously that's been around, but, making that process easier, it takes a lot of work to stage a live photo and video shoot, especially for our product class. That's something that we're looking to get better at, such that we can, as we commercialize new products, we don't have to have crazy processes to stage a photo and video shoot. Certainly there's value to that, and we will continue to use it. We have to use live folks for a lot of things, and models and videos, but for the static, just e-commerce imagery, getting those images up front can really increase our speed to market. Taylor: I would think the other thing, that perhaps we're missing today, is really seeing an aggregation of reviews across platforms. So obviously we see reviews that are syndicated. But we don't always see every review out there. So getting notified when there's a negative review in particular, such that we can see, is it just a one off? Somebody just didn't like it, or, is it the start of a trend of some sort. That happens very seldom with us fortunately, but it's always good to be on the forefront. Taylor: If you think about it, I'm sure we're not alone. A company like Kraft, they have millions of skews probably, having that feedback loop automated is so important. You can't have a person, tracking every review manually, right? So the more automation that's out there, the better. And we've done a really good job, I think, building out partners with the scraping capability to monitor our product pages and also, with advertising as well. Stephanie: Very cool. That's two very useful things. I'm sure a lot of people will be looking for, going forward as well. So we have a couple of minutes left and I do not want to let you get out of the lightning round. So let me know if you're ready and we can start that, Taylor. Taylor: Let's do it. Stephanie: All right. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. It's where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready? Taylor: Yes. Stephanie: All right. First one. What's the next sleep product that you're excited about buying or what are you most excited about right now? Taylor: CBD pillows. Stephanie: Tell me more about that. Taylor: Our CBD, we're really proud of the chemistry. It's microencapsulated into the cover. So with body pressure and as you toss and turn, as you sleep, the capsules break open and release the CBD up through the fabric and it's absorbed in the CBD receptors in the skin. Stephanie: Oh my gosh. That sounds very interesting. I have to check that out. Taylor: Coming, next quarter. Stephanie: Cool. I'll be on the lookout for that. What's up next on your reading list or audible? Taylor: That's a really great question. I don't read as much as I should. Mostly, I'm reader of the news. I would love a good mystery. I don't read enough fiction, sometimes it's good for diversion, especially during COVID times, right? Stephanie: Yep. We'll have to find one for you then. I'll source one and let you know. Taylor: Yes, please. Stephanie: What's up next on your Netflix queue? Taylor: Ozark. We just started, it's been really intense. So my wife as a mental health counselor, and I have some stressful days at work, so we both agreed, it's pretty much a weekend thing, because it's so intense, we can't watch it. Stephanie: Yes. I agree. You got to balance that out, put on a Disney movie or something. Taylor: Exactly. Stephanie: And the last one, what one thing, will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year? Taylor: I am going to say, voice search, I think more and more people will leverage, Siri or Alexa or the Google voice piece, for searching on stuff. I think, particularly, so much of our population is aging. For whatever reason, when I see somebody have a question, I see them using the voice search the most, like my grandparents, that demographic. As it gets better, we'll see it used more and more. Stephanie: I completely agree [inaudible 00:57:15]. To take anymore, too much work. Taylor: I know. That's all right. Stephanie: I like that. Well, Taylor, it's been a blast having you on. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about you and Soft-Tex International? Taylor: You can check us out on the web at, soft-tex.com. We're also on Facebook and Instagram. You can also check out any of our brands, like SensorPedic, SensorGel or BioPEDIC. For me personally, I'm on LinkedIn and Twitter, Taylor Jones. There's a lot of Taylor Jones's, but I'm out there. Stephanie: We'll link you up. We will find you, don't worry. All right. Thanks so much, Taylor. And we will talk to you soon. Taylor: Okay. Thanks so much, Stephanie. This is great.  

As a B2B marketer, how many touches does it take to convert a lead or a customer? From a marketing standpoint, how many interactions do we need to have with potential customers before they would become a customer? We get these types of questions a lot, and in this episode of Growth Marketers Podcast, Solomon and Taylor sit down to dive deeper into the subject. We hope you might find some useful tips in there, enjoy! Highlights 3:10- 3:20 - Taylor- “Just because it is possible that someone sits down, goes to google, performs a search, clicks on an ad, makes the purchase. That is an exception not, the rule.” 4:47 – 5:01 - Taylor- “What we have seen is that it can take eight to ten to upwards, depending on the complexity of the sale, fifteen touches for you to really be remembered, be recognized, warm someone up and then educate them…” 5:46 – 5:55 -Taylor – “It is always a better idea to have more interactions, as long as those interactions are value-packed and value-filled interactions,” 5:56 – 6:04 - Taylor – “What you don’t want to do is just look at the metrics and dictate your strategy based on the data alone.” 8:24 –8:32 -Taylor - “Map that entire journey (customer’s journey) out, identify what those triggers are, what those points are where you can provide value “ 8:44 – 9:03 - Taylor – “Anything that is valuable to your audience from the top of the funnel, all the way to the bottom of the funnel, build out marketing collateral for each one of those to provide value and then look at the channels and the devices that your prospects or your customers can be on, and that’s where you start touching them” 9:53 –10:03 - Solomon – “You shouldn’t care, how many touches it is going to take, you are not trying to make it into a scientific equation, that twelve and a half (touches) equals a deal. “ 10:22 –10:27- Solomon- “You are helping somebody figure it out, and some people need more help than others.” 10:33 – 10:37 - Taylor – “The more touches do not necessarily mean more time, sometimes it means actually the opposite.” 16:26 – 16:36 -Solomon- “I think there is no right answer to the question how many.it is how many things can you actually create to add value to somebody who is actually looking forward to your products and solutions.” Key takeaways It is better to create as many touchpoints as possible and segment it to different types of audiences. So, if you serve three different industries, make sure that they do not see the same ads. Depending on the location, they should see different things. Think about providing more touches that offer more value than showing off something that is not useful to the end customer. With this mindset, you will move in the right direction. If you have any questions, you know where to find us, www.oneims.com/podcast We love to hear from you Thank you for tuning in!

Artery buildups serve as silent danger signs of a heart attack. Discover how a coronary calcium score calculates patients’ risk by measuring the amount of calcium in their arteries through the use of a computed tomography (CT) scan.   TRANSCRIPT Intro: MedStar Washington Hospital Center presents Medical Intel where our healthcare team shares health and wellness insights and gives you the inside story on advances in medicine. Host: Thanks for joining us today. We’re speaking with Dr. Allen J. Taylor, Chair of Cardiology at MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute. Welcome, Dr. Taylor. Dr. Allen J. Taylor: Thank you. Host: Today we’re discussing coronary calcium scoring, which is a non-invasive heart scan that a cardiologist can use to help calculate a patient’s risk for coronary artery disease or atherosclerosis. Dr. Taylor, what are you looking for in a patient’s heart when you perform coronary calcium scoring? Dr. Taylor: Great question. This is a very simple test that very accurately and easily detects the beginnings of atherosclerosis or what otherwise people call (quote) “hardening of the arteries.” It’s that development of plaque, cholesterol buildups and other things that are filling up the arteries as we age. And so, when we’re doing coronary calcium scoring, we’re looking for little pieces of calcium, like in your bones, but that are in the arteries and it shouldn’t be there. And it’s a marker for these buildups that we can easily detect and measure and through that, evaluate a patient's risk for heart disease. Host: How does the calcium end up there when it’s not supposed to be there? Dr. Taylor: The calcium comes because the arteries are becoming damaged from the buildups and as they heal, the body naturally lays down some calcium. So, it’s part of these plaques or buildups and it’s the one that we can detect with x-rays because x-rays detect bone, and this is basically bone in your arteries—little pieces of calcium. So, it’s easily detected with a simple scan, a CT scan, that we call a coronary calcium scan. Host: Are there certain populations of patients who are at increased risk for high levels of coronary calcium? Dr. Taylor: It’s interesting because simply by aging, that’s your major risk. Now, some people with high cholesterol or high blood pressure or diabetes or smokers - they may develop calcium in their heart arteries at a faster rate. But, just because you don’t have those things, doesn’t mean you’re not developing buildups; it doesn’t mean you don’t have coronary calcium. And the challenge is that by measuring those risk factors, we can detect somewhat of a patient’s risk for heart disease, but it’s only part of the story. And, the important thing about calcium scoring is that it tells us more of the story. It adds to what we already know about a patient and helps us to determine who really is at risk for heart disease. Host: Is there anything that a patient has to do to prepare for this type of scoring test? Dr. Taylor: The beautiful thing about this is it’s a very simple test. It’s done using a CAT scanner or CT scanner, but it uses very low doses of radiation. There’s no needle. There’s no medicines. All the patient does is lay down, get hooked up to a few electrocardiogram electrodes, and hold their breath for about 15 seconds. Within 5 minutes, they’re done, and the scan is complete. Host: Now why does the patient have to hold their breath while they’re getting this test? Dr. Taylor: The reason that you have to hold your breath is because if the heart is moving when you breathe, it’ll blur the images. So, it’s done during a breath hold. But, the breath hold is very short. The scans are very fast. And, virtually all patients can tolerate the scan. The scanners are very wide profile, there’s not a lot of claustrophobia or that feeling of being closed in by the scanner tube. And the radiation levels, which is previously or often a concern, are very, very low. They’re really like a couple of mammograms worth of radiation exposure. So, it’s a very simple test and actually they’re also very inexpensive. Most health systems will do these tests for under a hundred dollars, if insurance doesn’t cover it. And many insurance payers will actually cover the test. Host: What happens next if a patient’s scan shows high levels of coronary calcium? Dr. Taylor: Right. If you find calcium, what does it mean? It means you’re at increased risk for heart disease. By the converse, if you don’t find calcium, it means you’re at low risk for heart disease. So, it really puts a lot of clarity on who is and who’s not at risk. So, when you detect coronary calcium, there’s certain things you’re going to do. The most obvious things are live a better lifestyle since lifestyle changes are so important to heart disease risk. Eat a better diet, exercise more, get good rest, avoid stress, for example. And then, other health habits, like don’t smoke, make sure your cholesterol is well controlled, make sure your blood pressure is well controlled. Maybe you’ll need a cholesterol medicine to control your risk. Maybe you’ll need aspirin to control your risk. With this information, you can make the right lifestyle changes. And also make sure you’re on the right treatments to optimize reducing the risk for heart disease. Because, remember - heart disease is still the number one killer in this country. Host: If those lifestyle changes don’t work, what treatment options are available to take care of that coronary calcium buildup? Dr. Taylor: A common question we get is “Can you remove the calcium?” And, you can’t. But remember, if there’s calcium there, there’s plaque or other buildups. And it’s that other parts of the buildups we’re trying to treat by treating cholesterol, for example. Mostly we can show that we can stabilize the plaques, for instance, by lowering cholesterol a lot using very simple cholesterol medications that are very safe and very effective. But, some other choices might be there for patients, like do they or don’t they take an aspirin a day, for example, or what blood pressure targets should they be looking for? Or, maybe they’ve been avoiding diabetes treatments and they should get on treatments. Or, what types of diabetes treatments? So, with your doctor, there’s many healthcare choices that can be made to reduce the risk for heart disease. But, that’s the connection. You get the test, you clarify your risk, and then you treat the risk using those other interventions - lifestyle and then targeted treatments for certain heart risk factors. Host: You’ve given us a lot of really good reasons to get this test and then to seek treatment after. But what if a patient doesn’t seek treatment? What are some of the risks to their health? Dr. Taylor: Well, one thing we know is that many patients fear heart disease but may not have to fear it at all because, if you have no calcium in your arteries, the evidence shows the risk for heart disease over the next 10 years is extremely low, like .1 percent per year, one in a thousand. Very low. Now, if a patient does have coronary calcium and doesn’t seek treatment, that would not be the outcome we would want because anytime you do a test, you want to use that test to make better health choices. And, the evidence shows that, in fact, that is what happens. So, when people get this test, they’re more likely to get appropriate cholesterol medication, for example. They’re more likely to take appropriate measures, like taking aspirin. And, they’re also more likely to make other healthy lifestyle choices. So, I think the test has some great utility to help both patients and doctors more carefully identify risk and then respond in the right way. And, the evidence suggests that that’s actually what happens. Host: Could you tell us about a patient who came in for a coronary calcium scoring test - maybe found that they had some calcium and made some changes to their life or were able to reduce their heart disease risk? Dr. Taylor: Oh sure. I can tell you stories on both sides of the story. A friend of mine, he’s in is early 50s and has a family history of heart disease, has always worried that something inside of him is not...won’t be right, that genetics have led to him to have risk for heart disease. But he lives a healthy lifestyle, doesn’t have any risk factors. He got a scan - there was no calcium. So, he has been reassured that, in fact, whatever it was that led his loved one - it was one of his parents - to have heart disease, he, at least at this point in his life, doesn’t appear to have it. And it’s a pretty good time to screen, as people turn middle-aged, 50 to 60. That’s when heart disease risk really goes up and we can detect calcium, if it’s present, and how much. On the other side of the story, many, many successful stories that show how this test can be well utilized. For example, a woman who was also middle-aged, in her 50s, and she had been worried about her heart health and didn’t have a lot of risk factors. Not a smoker, good cholesterol. And, in fact, she has very high levels of coronary calcium. And, she’s way above average for age and that says that her risk is much higher than it should be. So, what did we do? Well, she’s now on a cholesterol medicine - her cholesterol wasn’t bad, now it’s perfect. And, not all healthy people should take aspirin, but her risk is high enough with this that we have, in fact, placed her on aspirin - carefully, because aspirin can cause bleeding, so you only want to use aspirin when patients have risk for heart disease. So, her treatments have been changed. Now, she’s still active and she’s still eating well. She was always doing those things. But now we’ve gone from the normal lifestyle changes to, in fact, a very proactive approach to reduce her risk and hopefully that risk is being optimized. Host: What would you say to a patient who feels like maybe this isn’t for them or they don’t need this type of test? Dr. Taylor: The interesting thing about calcium testing is that we can only predict, with heart risk factors, about a third, meaning a minority, of actually how much buildup is actually there. You only know by looking. You know, they’ve said ‘a picture says a thousand words?’ That’s the case with this. By doing this very simple test, you can get a complete view of heart risk within 5 minutes, and it’s something that no other test can provide. Host: What makes the program here at MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute so unique for patients who have coronary artery calcium buildup? Dr. Taylor: In the mid-Atlantic, MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute has been doing calcium scanning longer than anybody. And, many of our doctors, myself included, have conducted some of the seminal research, the important research, that’s shown the value of this test. And we provide this as a low-cost health service. So, even if patients’ insurance won’t provide it, we so strongly believe that this is the best test that a patient, age 50 and above, could take to really know their heart risk, that we provide this at very low cost. So, we believe in the test. We think it’s very important. And we provide that care so that no patient shouldn’t have the benefit of a coronary calcium scan. Host: Thanks for joining us today, Dr. Taylor. Dr. Taylor: Thank you so much. Conclusion: Thanks for listening to Medical Intel with MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Find more podcasts from our healthcare team by visiting medstarwashington.org/podcast or subscribing in iTunes or iHeartRadio.

Nearly 25 percent of all heart attacks might be silent myocardial infarctions, or silent MI. These heart attacks can cause serious, long-term damage without any noticeable symptoms. Dr. Allen Taylor discusses who is at risk for this condition and how to prevent it.   TRANSCRIPT Intro: MedStar Washington Hospital Center presents Medical Intel where our healthcare team shares health and wellness insights and gives you the inside story on advances in medicine. Host: Thank you for joining us today. We’re talking with Dr. Allen J. Taylor, Chief of Cardiology at MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute at MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Today we’re talking about silent myocardial infarction, or silent MI, which is a heart attack that goes unnoticed by the person who has it. Silent MI might have no symptoms, or the symptoms might be so mild that they’re mistaken for muscle pain or heartburn. But the lack of symptoms is deceiving. Research has found that Silent MI, without a history of traditional heart attack, increases a patient’s risk of heart failure, heart attack, and death in general. Dr. Taylor, how can a condition that feels and seems harmless be so dangerous? Dr. Taylor: Silent MI is an unrecognized problem. It’s the same as a recognized heart attack, in terms of its risk. Seems surprising, how can something silent be so dangerous. And it’s not just the recognition that’s the problem, in terms of risk, but it’s the fact that when not recognized, we don’t have an opportunity to apply the right treatments that improve outcomes. So, silent MIs are risky and they’re just as risky as MIs that patients recognize. So, it’s important that we find them and get patients on the right treatment. Host: Are silent MIs common? Dr. Taylor: So, about a quarter of heart attacks are thought to be silent. And I think that when we use the word silent, we have to explain a little bit. Cause some MIs are truly silent - the patient never even has a symptom. Some MIs are unrecognized and so, silent to the patient, although there was a symptom that the patient didn’t recognize as being typical for a heart attack. Patients may mistake their symptoms - for instance, they may say “Oh, that’s just heartburn”, or they may experience heart pain as back pain. Or, in older patients in particular, they may simply have no symptoms at all or simply be feeling down or fatigued or just “off” a particular day. We hear all these stories and, whether it’s truly silent or unrecognized, it’s about 1 in 4 heart attacks that occur in the community. Host: How are silent MIs detected if they cause no symptoms? Dr. Taylor: Detection of unrecognized or silent MI can be a problem because it takes a test to detect it since the patient didn’t experience warning symptoms. Some ways we’ll identify them are using a simple test such as an electrocardiogram, that if it shows the changes of a heart attack, that we would then do further investigations to confirm if the electrocardiogram was true or not. Electrocardiograms can be very useful tests in detecting heart attacks that have been unrecognized, although it’s important to note that there’s both false positive test as well as negative tests. So, the electrocardiogram is not perfect, but it’s our primary tool to detect them. Another test that is very common in use is a heart function test called an echocardiogram. It’s a test using sound waves that looks at the heart function and if an area of the heart was shown to be not functioning properly, we might suspect that it had been impaired by an unrecognized heart attack. And that might lead to further investigations to determine if that was true or not. But the detection is difficult. And so, it takes going to your doctor and having one or two of these tests to see if your heart’s in really good shape. Host: What happens after you discover that a patient has experienced a silent MI? Dr. Taylor: Well, the first thing I say is “Don’t panic.” Let’s dive a little deeper into this. But, what happens then is we’ll just basically use the same evaluation as someone that had a known heart attack and run them through generally simple tests to see. For example, if the EKG or ECG electrocardiogram was abnormal, we’d perhaps get an echocardiogram to see if the heart function was ok. And then maybe a stress test - having somebody walk and then lightly jog on a treadmill while placed on an electrocardiogram to see if that shows any signs of heart stress when being active. And, if that’s not enough, we have very sophisticated tests that we can really dive very deep into heart function and to make sure the arteries are in good shape or, if not, what the depth of the problem is. So, it’s really the same evaluation as someone who has a known heart attack. And if we find there’s truly an abnormality, what then begins, after it’s assessed, is pick the right treatments. Does someone need an artery treatment right up front, and clearly then we’ll move them on to the right preventative treatments to prevent anything further from happening. Host: Who’s at risk for silent MI and should patients worry? Dr. Taylor: It really can be anyone because if it’s truly silent or unrecognized, any of us could mistake, say back pain, for back pain when it was really truly a heart attack. But there’s a few patient populations we’ve really focused on. One would be patients with diabetes. The patients with diabetes often don’t feel pain in the same way. And, they truly can be silent, or they may even experience a heart attack in a day when they simply don’t feel well and maybe their blood sugar control gets worse all of a sudden and they can’t figure out why. In an older patient, particularly in older females, the heart attacks can also be truly silent or unrecognized because they present in odd ways like back pain or a day in which they feel tired or just simply off. But it’s important to know that if anyone is feeling any symptoms that are unexplained - heartburn that’s just a little different than the usual heartburn they’ve experienced and longer lasting - they shouldn’t assume it’s heartburn, but get seen promptly to make sure that, nothing’s going wrong with their heart. Host: What can patients do to reduce their risk of silent MI? Dr. Taylor:  In terms of reducing the risk for it, well it comes down to the core risk factors for heart disease. That is, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, tobacco use, and then leading an optimal lifestyle, regular exercise 30 to 60 minutes most days of the week, avoiding tobacco, eating a diet that’s low in fat and low in sugars. So, it’s a lifestyle approach. Really, knowing your numbers and leading a healthy lifestyle to prevent it. But then not taking symptoms that you think are a little funny for granted. Host: Why is MedStar Washington Hospital Center the best place to seek heart care? Dr. Taylor: Well, I’m very proud of what we do at MedStar Washington Hospital Center and MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute because we simply can take care of anything from the most simple to the most incredibly complex. And we have every possible diagnostic tool to help uncover heart disease and every possible tool then to treat it. No matter the severity, we have a team that can help and that’s another unique aspect of MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute is that when you see one person, you’re really seeing an entire team. An entire team of experts that work together for making your care optimal. Host: Could you share some success stories from your patient population? Dr. Taylor: I have an interesting case - a young man, he’s very overweight but he had come in the hospital in terrible shape and things weren’t quite right. And in fact, in looking at his electrocardiogram, we noticed that there were signs of an old heart attack. And, in fact, what we indeed found in investigating it, was in fact he had an artery that was totally blocked, and it really had helped contribute to this whole illness that started with just a little breathing difficulty and retaining fluid. And by diagnosing the artery blockage, now we’re on a completely different course of care and now we’re seeking some really novel ways to restore blood flow past the total artery blockage. And while it’s unusual for a 30-year-old to have a blocked artery, it was the EKG that tipped us off and it’s really changed the way we’re caring for him. And, while I don’t want to alarm every 30-year-old person out there to say, “Oh my goodness, I could have a totally, artery totally blocked”, it raises the point of leading an optimal lifestyle. Good diet, exercise, maintaining good body weight, avoiding tobacco are the real ways to preserve your artery health. Host: Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Taylor. Conclusion: Thanks for listening to Medical Intel with MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Find more podcasts from our healthcare team by visiting medstarwashington.org/podcast or subscribing in iTunes or iHeartRadio.

Picmonic Co-founder - Adeel Yang MD Have you ever had a great idea? Something that could change everything? Maybe it's a great idea, but you aren't really sure how to bring it to life. It's even more difficult when you are in the medical field. Your ideas can truly change the world, but how do you manage to build a business with limited time focused on learning medicine? Enter Adeel Yang. Adeel is the co-founder of Picmonic, one of the biggest companies in the health education space. More importantly, Adeel is an  example of someone who not only has great out-of-this-world ideas, but someone who brings them to life. Learn from this amazing guest.  Adeel is an important figure, entrepreneur, and leader in the healthcare and education technology space. He is the president and co-founder of  Medumo and co-founder of the company Picmonic. Picmonic is a visual storytelling platform that helps students remember vast amounts of information In less time. Picmonic has already revolutionized medical school, nursing, and other areas of education. Meanwhile, Medumo, is a startup with a mission to transform patient education by guiding patients using automated instructions and checklists throughout their care. In this episode, learn how Adeel brought Picmonic to life, how you can bring your own ideas into fruition, Adeel's take on improving healthcare, and much more! Enjoy learning from this awesome guest! Learn more: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adeelyang/ https://www.medumo.com/ https://www.picmonic.com/ Picmonic Codes and Free Subscription:  1. "thehappydoc20" 20% off subscription from Picmonic 2. "thehappydocFA" 14 days free access to picmonic 3. Join e-mail list on www.thehappydoc.com for entry to raffle for 6 month subscription (just send me an e-mail letting me know it applies to you thehappydoc1@gmail.com) - subscriber list is on the bottom of each page 4. Share this post for a bonus entry (with proof). Shout out to the print and go feature:  https://www.picmonic.com/pages/print-go/ Top Points On creating new ideas: The goal is to not  try to do everything at once, but to pace yourself, and to actually think about the idea fully, in terms of a structure. For example [ask]: how many people can this actually help? How big is the market? thinking about if I were to do this, how much time will it really take me? Do I have to take time off from school? How do I manage, the time commitment? Find mentors: Surround yourself with people who have done it [whatever your goal is], advisors, mentors, other entrepreneurs. I think what is really important is to leverage that moment of creativity and go talk to people who have done it, have patented ideas, have innovations, done research from bench top to bedside and talk to those people... get them to help you manage the rest of the process... And then, time manage of course Sharing the idea: I've learned so much from talking and sharing the idea and not being afraid to disclose everything you are thinking. Use that excitement to bring other people in to collaborate. Ideas are a dime in a dozen and it's ultimately about execution. So for every idea you have, there are millions of others out there, so... there's really in essence nothing unique about one idea, but the way you share it and execute on it is how you become successful. Finding a community: Every major city seems to have kind of these startup or entrepreneurial activities and events, we started enlisting ourselves in these programs and events. This gave us an opportunity to access some serial entrepreneurs who have actually built and sold companies. We then grew from there. The definition of happiness: For me happiness is about finding a mission or a purpose that you can achieve, and working hard to achieve it, and in that process staying motivated, healthy, and knowing you are making a difference in this world. Check out Adeel's routine for staying productive below- effective and simple. The reality of a job in medicine: I think most people go into medicine and thinking back, would have been a little bit naiive if you will, of what medicine is and what being a doctor is like. There is a lot of glorifying the profession. In reality, it's a pretty tough job, and it comes with a lot of sacrifices. I think if you have the right expectation early on, and then made the right decision to go into medicine, I think you have a much happier outlook, and much happier journey On exploring and speaking to those ahead of you: You are doing yourself a disservice if you do not talk to ten-twenty people in the profession and really objectively try to assess if the feedback is positive. A lot of the physicians I talked to, I think now looking back, were trying to communicate with me what medicine really is. Look at the section:  “How do we elevate the space of healthcare?” Look at the section:“Exciting new technologies in the healthcare space” Look the closing section: The grass is always greener and enjoy the journey Transcript *Note: I bold areas that I find important as I read them. Please comment if you find this distracting, and if so, I will not bold future posts and only comment in the top points section Note: text was edited for easier readability, which doesn't remove the primary meaning of the content.* Being exposed to the entrepreneurial side of medicine -I Grew up in Taiwan and was brought up in traditional Asian family. I was told medicine was the path I should go on. I Really didn't discover interest in medicine until after college when I joined a biotherapeutics investment company; they invested in early stage innovation and medical technology. That peaked my interest because it opened my eyes to opportunities in medicine and the creative side of medicine. -The business side of medicine was something I had never been exposed to before so shortly after that I decided I wanted to go into medicine to foster innovation and build businesses. -That led to medical school where I attended the University of Arizona, where I also went to undergrad. The Birth of Picmonic -In medical school, two years into it, I started Picmonic with a classmate of mine because we were trying to be creative and study things better, and as you know, there is a ton of information you are supposed to learn and remember. At times it felt like it was humanly impossible to do. So what we did was we [Adeel and his friend] would go to the gym together and hangout all the time, we would come up with ridiculous stories and images to remember the different, bugs, drugs, and diseases that we had to master. -Those stories and pictures, we started sharing that with our classmates. We put it online and realized students enjoyed it. We took it one step further and actually developed the software to deliver the images and stories in a more interactive way, and that was the birth of Picmonic. -From there I took a leave of absence from school, we went out and we built a company. We raised some grant money as well as venture capital money. In total we raised $5,000,000 and then built a team of about 30 people and really grew the company to serving hundreds of thousands of students around the world. -That was really exciting and really solidified my passion for wanting to do something non-traditional. -I dragged myself back, finished medical school and then went back into the business world of Picmonic. -I recently started another company in Digital Health using a software technology and education technology to help patients understand instructions so that's me. How did being exposed to the entrepreneurial world of medicine influence you? -I had a major in economics but it wasn't in business training and I didn't go to business school. -The concept of how things worked financially, how to build a team, and all of the stories you read about for founding companies, I only thought I knew what it meant... until I actually did it. But, that peaked my interest when I was working for this venture capital firm, and saw investing in early stage ideas and founders, which helped companies go out and serve millions of people. That really opened my eyes to what I really wanted to do. How does a medical student actually take an idea and create a company? -I kind of wish medical education included in its curriculum more creative classes to give people exposure to that side of medicine and the business side of medicine. -I think for most medical students, from day one, it's about getting through these blocks and get through these exams. it almost feels like you can't even lift your head up and breathe, so to ask to do more, is almost impossible. -However, I think that part of the reason I was able to create Picmonic while I was is because... I think that with most medical students, there are times when the creative juices start flowing, and you have this idea. The goal is to not  try to do everything at once, but to pace yourself, and to actually think about the idea fully, in terms of a structure. -For example [ask]: how many people can this actually help? How big is the market? thinking about if I were to do this, how much time will it really take me? Do I have to take time off from school? How do I manage, the time commitment? -Thankfully I was exposed to this early on, so I was thinking about these things as the idea came about. -Other areas to think about are really surrounding yourself with people who have done it, advisors, mentors, other entrepreneurs. So in that, I think for medical students who have creative ideas and have an epiphany, and want to do something crazy out of this world, my suggestion is to not burn out, not to do everything all at once, because that is typically how the fire goes out. I think what is really important is to leverage that moment of creativity and go talk to people who have done it, have patented ideas, have innovations, done research from bench top to bedside and talk to those people, and get them to help you manage the rest of the process. And then, time manage of course -in retrospect these are what we were able to do to keep going Taylor: I like what you said. When inspiration comes in, there is this feeling of having it and saying go go go, I need to create this now, you get really excited. You are suggesting not to lose the fire but to tame the excitement and really manage that into a realistic, actionable, way of creating this project and really bring it into fruition over time. Sharing your ideas and finding mentors -that point about seeking mentors... I remember, call it a rookie move, we came up with the idea and we were so excited about it, we were afraid [if they discussed the idea], that people would run with it, that insecurity that comes with the beginning of most entrepreneurial ideas. That's something I have learned to really throw away, if you really want your idea to be successful. I've learned so much from talking and sharing the idea and not being afraid to disclose everything you are thinking. Use that excitement to bring other people in to collaborate. Ideas are a dime in a dozen and it's ultimately about execution. -So for every idea you have there are millions of others out there, so there's really in essence nothing unique about one idea, but the way you share it and execute on it is how you become successful. -That's the other aspect is don't be afraid to share your idea. -Then about mentorship, the way we seeked out our mentors, a lot of people who are immediate... professors, and people that every medical students knows, professors who have done a lot of great things in his or her life. We started by talking to some of our closest mentors and professors just at the medical school, which then led to more introductions, which led to more introductions, and more... and for me, I was also very proactive online and finding mentorship opportunities within the city. -Every major city seems to have kind of these startup or entrepreneurial activities and events, we started enlisting ourselves in these programs and events. This gave us an opportunity to access some serial entrepreneurs who have actually built and sold companies. We then grew from there. Taylor: One, I liked the idea of using your community and two, reaching out to entrepreneurs in the city, gave you different aspects of business and expand your ability to look at business and develop your perspective. Expanding a company -When we started, we just wanted to do something for ourselves. Some of the greatest business start out from some personal struggle or experience. When we developed it, it was based on my co-founder Ron who had some experience in learning and memory research, who knew some of these techniques. -What we did, we took advantage of that technique, and knowing that there is scientific knowledge backing it's efficacy, and effectiveness, we took it, ran with it. We realize it worked for us, and then the expansion happened after we established some traction and success with medical students. We realized nursing students are also struggling with topics, and learn similar bugs, drugs, diseases, and procedures, etc. This was a natural progression, and we saw the natural progression to nursing students, to PA students, even pharmacy students. We allowed the market to guide us and expanding this particular product and idea into other markets. -In terms of the methodology, we have iterated on it, fill fast and iterate. You build a product, put it out there, and as you start to collect data, feedback, from users, you can see what is working and what is not working. Backing Picmonic with research I don't know if you know, being nerds, we love doing research and digging into the science into all of this. -We did an IRB approved research study with Midwestern University in Arizona. We put together a legitimate study comparing students using this method compared to students doing powerpoint delivered lecture notes. We found a statistically significant difference in the efficacy of using Picmonic and it's methodology. -With that research backing, we started iterating more specific ways that we delver the image. -From there we started expanding into active learning. -We then made a picmonic creation tool, so students can develop their own picmonics. Once you start gaining traction with users, then you have the ability to experiment and improve upon the product. -We got lucky having early users excited in what we were doing, and then from there we were able to build the momentum, grow, and iterate. Adeel on happiness -For me happiness is about finding a mission or a purpose that you can achieve, and working hard to achieve it, and in that process staying motivated, healthy, and knowing you are making a difference in this world. -That's where I, in the last 5-7 years, have realized everyday I am waking up, thinking about the companies that I am building, and the people I am affecting, and I feel very motivated and driven. It allows me to focus and at the end of every day, it allows me to find something meaningful. For my limited lifespan that I have so far, I've definitely experienced that and am very grateful for. Adeel's daily routine and staying productive -You know it's interesting I was recently reading an article about this, and there definitely is a pattern for people who are in the entrepreneurial space and are able to juggle these high-stress tough schedules and stay on top of it. For me I've learned a lot from other people who have been able to be productive and effective in what they do. -Somethings I've learned to do is, I always wake up early. I think that's one of the key things that has changed in the last 3-4 years. I also get a very short and efficient workout session in, it's my natural caffeine for the day (I actually weened off of coffee). -I drink a lot of water, it sounds simple but it keeps me going through the day. -I actually try not to sit in one spot more than four hours, I've noticed consistently my productivity goes down when I'm starting at a screen, sitting in one position for longer than four hours. -I also always try to have food and interaction during lunchtime, that is really healthy and productive for me (so I schedule lunch meetings or schedule time to engage people). -During the afternoon, I stay pretty focused from after lunch to 4-5, then I get another workout session in. -My workouts are no longer than 40-45 minutes. -Of course by then, I am winding down, then I do a lot of reading before bed, and that's it. -I'm a pretty routine kind of guy. -Taylor: What I've learned reading about successful people is the early morning workout, or way to get that morning energy. I also interestingly do two workouts and have found that to be tremendously more effective. Tools and technologies to stay organized and motivated? -They are mostly related to the companies I am working with. One tool that has been central in my life is slack (https://slack.com/is) - use that for pretty much everything we do, it's a communication tool for companies that have different projects and different people working on multiple projects. It's a way to streamline the different types of conversations you are having with different people. I've been using that for the past three years and it's been incredible. -Personally, I use a lot of Apple Apps to keep reminders for anything personal. -I try to keep my personal to-do separate from my company to-dos. -Company task-managing tools include: asana - https://asana.com/ , another tool called podio - https://podio.com/site - these are designed to organize company teams. -Personally I use the reminder tools on my phone, and checklists I build for myself to make sure that I stay on top of my own schedule. -Other than that, nothing too fancy. What would you tell a younger Adeel, tips you wish you would have heard sooner -I think that the advice I would give myself, is different than the advice I would give to someone entering medicine for the sake of becoming a physician. -I will start with myself, I think I regret chopping up my medical education into pieces. I took a leave of absence to build a company and really force myself to come back, that process was a messy process. A lot of administrative hassles [happened]. I would have told myself to stay focused, finish one thing before you start another. -I think with medicine, it's one of those fields where once you get away from it for a little bit, it's hard to get back into it. That's what I would tell a younger Adeel -The advice I would give as personal advice ten years ago, I would have told myself to learn more about coding, and be a little more technology savvy. -For anyone going into the medical profession would be to really really try to explore other areas, other professions, and talk to other people in professions. -I think most people go into medicine thinking back, would have been a little bit naiive if you will, of what medicine is and what being a doctor is like. There is a lot of glorifying the profession. In reality, it's a pretty tough job, and it comes with a lot of sacrifices. I think if you have the right expectation early on, and then made the right decision to go into medicine, I think you have a much happier outlook, and much happier journey. -I think the friends that I had, who had a different expectation of medicine as a career looks like, are the ones who struggled with happiness throughout medical school and their residency training. Taylor: Although arguably speaking, you might not always know what you are getting into unless you are experiencing it... Adeel: Yes I agree, but I think, thinking back, people used to tell me: "make sure you go shadow physicians," right? And it always felt more like a chore than something I really needed to do. I would think "Oh, I'll shadow a physician and maybe get a letter of recommendation from that person," but midway through medicine I realized, that could be the life-defining opportunity if I realized how important it was. -You don't really know what you want unless you experience it, but if you talk to enough people and the right people (this happens in business, to understand what people want as a product), to try to figure out what you want to do in your life... you are doing yourself a disservice if you do not talk to ten-twenty people in that profession and really objectively try to assess the feedback is positive. A lot of the physicians I talked to, I think now looking back, were trying to communicate with me what medicine really is. But I think because I was, already set in applying to medical school, I blocked it out. I blocked out an opportunity to try to understand and learn what it means to be a practicing physician. Taylor: It's not too late for students to reach out to doctors in different fields and get a taste of what it's like life is actually like and learn from those experiences. How do we elevate the space of healthcare? -Let's start with the policy scale. I think there is a lot of changes happening, there is a huge transition from fee-for service to value-based medicine, bundle payments. I think it is creating the right kind of incentive, for people to focus on quality of care rather than the number of patients you see. I think that policy will continue and improve a lot of the work-flow issues that physicians are facing, which is "I gotta get through 30-40 patients," to be economically viable. You know that's a problem that has been around for ages. I'm excited to see where that goes, and I do not think the new administration there because everything I have read shows that policy is staying. -In terms of doctors who can make policy changes, I think there is a huge problem with residency being underpaid and overworked. I think that is something a lot of people are trying to push for but everything I know about the affordable care act still pressures residents even more. I think it is pushing a lot of pressure downstream and it's not helping people get into the profession -I think the bigger problem should be how we increased residency slots to meet the demands that are currently in need in the world and in our country. That needs to come from the top (administration). -From my perspective doctors should agree that more productive residents, more residency positions, and more fair pay for residents are going to create better doctors and incentivize more gifted students who want to go into this profession. -On an individual level, I think it's really important that people do not see medicine as a chore, a job or a game. I have seen that happen a lot in medicine where people make decisions based on test scores, or make decisions based on needing to get a better evaluation, or this is how much I need to do to meet financial incentives. -On an individual level if people can understand that medicine is not a career you go into to amass an enormous amount of wealth, that is not the case. There are a lot of professions that allow you to do that if that is what motivates you in life. I think the right attitude is going into medicine to devote a lot of your life to improve the lives of others and the more we have people that think that way, I think the better as a whole this profession and this working environment will improve. Exciting new technologies in the healthcare space -We can start with the education technology industry and then we can talk about health technology. Both industries have been really exciting to watch, a lot of investment dollars going in, a lot of attention here. There is a huge shift now in the industry of elevating the importance of innovation in both of these industries. -In education technologies, it's not new but it is gaining a lot of momentum and is growing, the concept of personalized learning and adaptive learning. To put it simply it uses technology and smart algorithms and machines to detect on an individual level how well you are doing and how well you are learning. Information is then delivered in a way that is tailored toward your needs. That is happening a lot in the K-12 space, and higher education space, not happened enough in the medical education space. Medical education is sort of this really ancient immovable rock, where rules have been established for decades, we are still going into the anatomy lab. There is a great deal of tradition, it's hard to break. -There are a few companies heading in this direction: osmosis (https://www.osmosis.org/) - they are using interesting technology and space-learning algorithms to help students better find information that is important to them and help them specifically. I think personalized and adaptive technology is a really exciting technology to watch. -Of course, the idea that you have to learn the same way the student sitting next to you do, now is a complete fallacy, and we all know that is not true. -I am excited to see more blending learning and flipped-classroom models where student can learn on their own with their own style at their own pace that they need to do, and then still have opportunities to come into the classroom, interact with professors, to ask questions, and to practice more interactive skills. I think this model will be a new innovation that is really exciting to watch. -Of course there are all these devices and tools available to learners on the go, so that's really exciting with mobile technology. -From the healthcare standpoint there's been a huge wave of innovation and investments going into digital health, obviously the wearables. Think about everything now from things you can wear on your wrist, things you can wear as part of your clothes, things that are implantable. What is happening now that because cloud computing and how data is being collected is so advanced now, I think we are just catching up now with the potential of data and what we can do with that data. -What I mean by that is, imagine, that all of the people with cardiac diseases have wearables that are monitoring their heart. That data used to be, if there is an event, let's do something about it. -But, I think we are coming to an exciting time, where thousands of thousands of patients can generate millions of data points everyday. -We can now take all of that data and run artificial intelligence and machine-run algorithms to identify patterns and correlate patterns to the ultimate outcome of the patients. -That predictive analytics ability, will completely transform the way we think about preventative care, avoidable cost, and the way we think about interfering or helping patients with their adherence. -What I do with the second company Medumo is we actually have a platform that delivers instructions to patients, via email and text message. The patients through text message and email can actually open up additional information and material about what they are supposed to do at the right place, and the right time. They can interact with the content and collect data to predict whether the patient is going to successfully complete the treatment, complete the preparation for their procedure, or what their post-operation and follow-up instructions that they are able to carry through and not have a potentially life-adverse outcome. So, really exciting innovation from a data standpoint happening all throughout the healthcare space, and of course, how people are taking advantage of how people are using AI. I think is the next phase of innovation we are going to see. Recommended resources for students and doctors to check out -Obviously I am more on the business side and start-up side. There are a few people in the startup world that I follow and organizations as well: -Ycombinator is one (https://www.ycombinator.com/), an incubator based out of San Francisco that have been the early investory in great companies like AirBnb. I think following their blogs, posts, and podcasts has been really exciting. -I think there is another in Boston, called Pulse@MassChallenge (http://boston.masschallenge.org/pulse), an accelerator specific for Digital health -for me it is staying in tune with what is happening in the healthcare industry. -There are a couple of twitters I follow and blogs from the accountable care organizations and policymakers that are affiliated with the government, constantly now it seems. -I definitely think, for me it is staying in tune with the news and what is happening in my space (digital health), but I really enjoy subscribing to some of the start-up podcasts that are helping founders get through tough times. - Some of the founders I look up to are Ben Hurowitz (@bhurowitz), and everybody's favorite Elon Musk (@elonmusk), and one that I personally admire is Tony Shay who is the founder of Zappos (@tonyhsieh) -In the medicine space, I think it is more specific to the different specialties and fields, I will defer that to the medical specialties and practicing. -add on resources: 1. The Pitch is a really fun podcast (https://thepitch.fm/)   2. How to start a startup - (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-start-a-startup/id922398209?mt=2) Adeel's professor who showed him what having a “calling” really meant -I think for me, I had a mentor... Dr. Rappoport - almost every medical student I know, even after years of being a surgeon or educator), he has this little office in the back of the building. He doesn't mind it at all, and he interacts with students on a daily basis. -He took me in an off-site clinic that he uses to volunteer and practice, a clinic for addicts and an underserved population. -I remember going to that clinic with him and realizing, that's what calling really means. He exemplifies what I would want every medical student and doctor to have, in terms of the passion of wanting to treat patients. I think that was a moment of inspiration for me. -Every time I think how tough medicine is, I think of Dr. Rappaport and then what he still does on a daily basis, it puts everything into perspective. In closing: the grass is always greener and enjoy the journey -I think my advice would be that medicine is a tough road. My wife is still in residency, and some of my closest friends are still in training. When I talk to them, they are always very curious about what I do. I am on a non-traditional path of building companies that are in the healthcare space, and I'm not seeing patients on a day-to-day basis reporting to work. I think the best advice I can give is "the grass is always greener". -When you are on a really tough path of medicine, you look at people not in medicine and you start to regret and think "I could have done this, or could have done that differently." I think being on the other side of the fence, I sometimes look at medicine, and think "man I wish I was seeing patients, I wish I was still in an environment where everyday I have a chance to use my trusted skill set that would be valuable to people". So the grass is always greener. -The advice I can also give is there is light at the end of the tunnel, for the medical students and residents, and don't keep staring at the light and wanting the tunnel to be over. Be open-minded and enjoy the journey, it's okay to pause for a second if you are too stressed out, it's okay to try something new. It's okay to take a year off and do research, or do something you want to do, start a company, or explore an idea with a mentor about an innovation that can be world-changing. -The advice I would give is, don't let the tunnel define your life. Harness the creativity and talk to people and take breaks. -For physicians, remember the little people.

S21 E05 Week 5: Corinne v. Taylor   It's week five of The Bachelor with Nick Viall and it feels like we've seen this story before. Switch out Corinne & Taylor for Alex & Chad, the parallels start to stack up. So, are you buying the narrative that Corinne created for Taylor? In which she's a bully who half the women agree is there for the wrong reasons. Ian and Geoff sat down to discuss the #TeamTaylor or #TeamCorinne debate while saying goodbye to two of their favorites (Sarah & Astrid) and chatting about social media popularity, Ouija boards, Nick's public speaking skills, proposal stories, the joys of live theatre, Alexis & Josephine owning the final two-minutes of every episode and much more. Tom Jones thanks for listening!    Join our Bachelor Fantasy League @ https://goo.gl/bII6mR Email us questions @ eandgpodcast@gmail.com Follow us on social media @eandgpodcast @geoffkeith & @iangulbransen Save 15% on your Bachelor Wines order when using promo code “EANDG” (which applies to everything except the “Six Pack”), thanks to our friends at: http://bachelorwines.com Finally, be sure to use promo code "EANDG" for 20%-off all merchandise, thanks to our awesome sponsors: www.ClothingByOWL.com & www.PuppiesMakeMeHappy.com 

5 Lent—March 22, 2015 Jeremiah 31:31-34; Psalm 51; Hebrews 5:5-10; John 12:20-33 Homily preached by the Rev. Canon Linda S. Taylor It’s amazing to me how quickly I can go from gratitude to panic. I learned Saturday morning that the event I’d been called to deal with today had been cancelled. So, I called Canon […]

Let's try this again...... It's a "Very Special Episode" of Pod Is My Copilot, as we talk about tooth decay and unemployment, Movies and Motinis (yeah, you read that right). It's all very 80' sitcom....unfortunately, it's more "Small Wonder" that "Golden Girls." And, of course, Taffy and Rodan team up on Taylor (It's not as hot as it sounds. TRUST.) And Taffy asks another of her "If" questions. Taylor sounds a little low tonight, or does Taff sound a little loud? Ok, so thank you for being patient as I learn the joys of the podcast. It's a fun episode, kittens! It's Pod is My Copilot! Music: Brain Bukit: Run Rabbit, The Chase. check out our blog - http://www.oksopodcast.blogspot.com , e-mail us at podismycopilot@gmail.com , and be our friend on Myspace - http://www.myspace.com/podismycopilot . Thank you again for listening!!!

You will NOT want to miss today's episode!With her first pregnancy, Taylor was committed to having an unmedicated, vaginal birth. But after a 5-day induction at 37 weeks due to cholestasis and no cervical change or dilation, she knew it was time to consent to a C-section. Taylor knew she would fight for her VBAC even before she became pregnant again. 18 hours after her water broke, Taylor was barely 1 centimeter dilated. Labor continued for hours with transition-like symptoms. She knew she was close. Taylor agreed to a cervical check. She was 2 centimeters dilated. Find out how Taylor's resilience helped her overcome that HUGE discouragement we feel when labor isn't progressing the way we think it is.Additional linksHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Welcome, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast. This is your host, Meagan. Guys, I am so excited about this story today. This is Taylor.Taylor, we are so excited to have you on today. I am going to share a little bit about our course. Normally, we dive into reviews before we start the story, but I want to share a little bit more about our course. I wanted to let you guys know. We have a VBAC Prep Course. This prep course is for anybody wanting to explore their options for birth after Cesarean. You may or may not know if VBAC is right for you. This course is going to help you learn the pros and the cons of both VBAC and repeat Cesarean. We are going to dive into the history. We are going to give you tools. We are going to give you things to help you take with you to your provider to help establish a better relationship and help find out if that provider truly is supportive of you. Of course, there are some more stories in there and so much more information. This course is created for any birthing parent looking to know their options. And also, any birth worker wanting to expand their knowledge of VBAC and the history of VBAC and how to support future clients, especially if you are a doula on VBAC. Taylor is a labor and delivery nurse which is super exciting so we are going to talk a little bit more about that. I want to ask her some questions but even labor and delivery nurses, midwives, and birth workers, this course is going to be great for you. Learn more about our course at thevbaclink.com.Taylor's StoryMeagan: Okay, Taylor. I cannot wait for you to share your story. I was telling you in the beginning, when I saw your face pop up on our Zoom when we were getting ready to record, I just knew exactly who you were from your image. I just remember seeing it and having all of the feels so I can't wait to hear from you. Right from your voice, so thank you so much for being here with us today. Taylor: Yes, thank you for having me. I am so excited. Meagan: Seriously, I'm so excited. I would love to turn the time over to you. Share away. Share this wonderful story with the world.Taylor: Okay well, gosh. There are so many things. My first pregnancy was in 2020. July 2020 was when I had my first baby. That pregnancy was very uneventful. It was great. I didn't have any issues. I strongly desired an unmedicated, vaginal birth. I got my husband to read The Bradley Method twice. Yeah. I just was chugging along. I actually wasn't working labor and delivery yet. I was working in the mother/baby unit. That will kind of come into play later because I didn't know what I didn't know at the time. So just chugging along and then I got to about 36 weeks and I just felt like my feet were really itchy at night. I ended up telling a friend and she said that in her first pregnancy, that happened to her and she ended up having cholestasis. Meagan: Mhmm. I was going to say, cholestasis. Taylor: Yes, and so of course, I was just like, “Oh wow.” I went down the Google hole and I was like, “Oh, I have to tell my doctor. This sounds so scary.” I know y'all have talked about cholestasis on your podcast before, but basically, it's a random issue with your liver during pregnancy. The worst-case result is a stillbirth or arrhythmias in the baby and things like that. My mind was just going straight to that. I told my doctor and she was of course like, “Oh yeah. We need to draw some labs.” They ended up drawing some labs and sent me on my way. They take about a week to come back, so I just was going on with life. Meagan: Which is so crazy to me. Can I just say that? This is a potentially serious thing and it takes a week. Taylor: Right, yep. So yeah. She gave me some medicine that was supposed to help with the itching and things like that. Meagan: I think it helps lower your liver enzyme levels right? Taylor: Yeah. It really is supposed to slow things down. I took it and I didn't really feel like it helped, but I took it. Of course, I wanted the best thing for my baby. So I get to a little over 37 weeks at this point. I think I was 37 + 3. I was just at home. We had this really bad storm. My husband was normally off this day. It was a Monday. He was working late. The power went out. After the storm, I went outside to try and send him a text. He was calling me and said, “Hey. Have you talked to (one of my best friends who works at the hospital with me)? She's been calling me. She's been trying to get a hold of you.”I just was like, “No. I haven't had service. We lost power so the Wi-Fi went out.” So I called her and she was at work. She just said, “Taylor. The doctor's been trying to call you. Your labs came back and you have cholestasis. They want you to come in tonight.” I was just like, “What? What? Hold on.” You know, I just was—Meagan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got to wrap your mind around it for a sec. Taylor: Yeah. I could tell that she was really sad to be the one to call me because she knew that I just really wanted this Bradley Method birth. So my husband came home and I just was like, “No. This is not what I wanted at all. Ugh.” I just was so sad. We ended up going in, of course, because I thought that was my only– they didn't give me any other options. I just thought, “Okay, well I need to do what they say.”So I went in and yeah. I was a little over 37 weeks. They got me admitted. I ended up having a Cervadil that night and I was closed by the way. My cervix was closed, thick, and high. So I had a Cervadil just thinking, “Oh great. I'm going to have my baby probably tomorrow.” The next day rolls around. It's still closed, thick, and high. I had another Cervadil which, if anyone has not had a Cervadil, it's like a sandpaper tampon. It is horrible. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Taylor: It's really horrible. So I had a second one with those and by the end of that day, still closed. I went in Monday night and between Monday night and Friday, I had had three Cervadils, Cytotec orally and vaginally, and a whole day of Pitocin. They tried to put a Cook Catheter through because, at some point, the furthest I got was a fingertip basically. The midwife was really, she was just trying so hard because I worked there and she knew I really wanted a vaginal delivery. So she was actually really awesome. But they tried to put a Cook catheter through my fingertip cervix. It was horrible. And yeah. So Friday morning rolls around and they came in. They were just like, “Yeah. There is really nothing else we can do at this point. I don't know why nothing is working.” The doctors had already been trying to have a C-section on Wednesday and this was Friday. I just remember feeling so exhausted, so tired, and honestly, just in so much pain from all of the things. I looked at my husband and I was just like, “I guess I just know. I know that I'm going to have to have a C-section.” They were just like, “Yeah. That's kind of your only option.” I ended up asking, “Can I go home? Can I go to antepartum? Can I just have some more time?” They just said, “No. We've done so much. You have cholestasis already. If it was going to work, it probably would have worked already.”I ended up having a pretty good C-section. It wasn't bad. It wasn't rushed. Nothing was wrong with my baby. He wasn't in distress or anything. We actually didn't know it was a he. We didn't find out what he was until he was born. But yeah, I just was pretty devastated. My husband was pretty devastated for me. We both were crying in the labor room all day until my C-section and then we just came to terms with it and it was fine. I had my C-section. I had my healthy little baby boy, Mason. And yeah. I had an easy recovery. I went home and I just knew that I was never going to have another C-section. That was my mindset when I went home because even though it was smooth and nothing was an emergency or anything, I just felt pretty devastated. I just remember even months after he was born, I would just cry in the shower thinking about it. I was like, “Why am I feeling like this?” I just never knew that your birth experience was just– now I know. It's just truly one of the most important things that you'll ever go through in life. Yeah. So I was determined that if I was going to get pregnant again, I was going to have my VBAC. So fast forward, my little Mason turned one. That was in July and I ended up finding out I was pregnant in September, so he was a little over one. I was ready. I was going to do all of my research and yeah. I started reading all of these books on VBACs. I went to the doctor and I knew– at this point, I was a labor and delivery nurse. My hospital is actually a community hospital and we don't have in-house anesthesia, so we technically don't do VBACs there. I went to see my doctor for my new appointment. She said, “Okay, well, we can put you down for a repeat C-section since you've had one.” I said, “No. I really want to have a VBAC.” She was great. She said, “Okay well, we, unfortunately, don't do them here. The hospital that does is 2 hours away.” I said, “Okay,” because I already knew that. I knew she was going to say that. I was like, “ I am doing this.” Of course, then comes the VBAC calculator. The biggest thing that everyone kept saying was, “Well, your cervix never dilated with your first pregnancy, so that's kind of a concern. We don't know why that happened.” But anyways, I just knew that I still had a chance. They did the VBAC calculator, and yeah. I just planned on having my VBAC. I went through my pregnancy and all of my appointments just knowing that that was what I wanted. I found The VBAC Link podcast and listened to y'all every day. Meagan: Aww. Taylor: Yeah. I listened to VBAC birth stories. Yeah. It was just the best. I was listening to all of those and I remember I was 20-something weeks pregnant and I was at work one day. Someone I worked with was just like, “You know, I am totally for VBACs. I think they're awesome, but I just don't know if you're a good candidate. There was a reason why you never dilated. I just remember I went in the bathroom and I just cried. I was devastated. She was not mean at all. It was like an honest conversation, but I texted my friend who had a VBAC after two C-sections. She ended up being my doula with my VBAC. I will tell you more about her. But I texted her and I was just so devastated. She was like, “Taylor. That is just not even true. You can do this.” I went forward and later in pregnancy, I went to the chiropractor, ate all of the dates, and drank the red raspberry leaf tea. I walked every day. I was chasing my toddler. I felt like I was healthier during this pregnancy, and yeah. I ended up being referred to that hospital that is two hours away when I was at 36 weeks. It's a big teaching hospital, and so of course, they were like, “We prefer probably to be induced around 39 weeks.” I said, “Nope. I am not going to be induced. I don't want that.”“Okay, well, we definitely want you to deliver by the time you are at 40 weeks.” I said, “Nope”. Meagan: “Thanks, but no thanks.”Taylor: I said, “Nope. I don't want to be induced.” The doctor was just like, “Okay. Well, then what we will do is every week we will check your cervix and do a membrane sweep and see if we can get things moving. After 40 weeks, you'll just have to come back for NSTs and things.” I said, “Nope.” I was like–Meagan: Way to advocate for yourself. Taylor: Yes. I, oh my gosh. That was just comical looking back. In the moment though, it was really scary because it is scary to tell a doctor, “No,” especially because we just assume that they know everything. Even being a labor and delivery nurse, sometimes it's hard for me and I have to advocate for my patients and things. In the moment, it was scary, but now, I'm just so glad I did. I ended up having an appointment at 39 weeks at my local OB here. She was like, “Can I just check you, and maybe can I do a sweep?” I was just like, “Okay,” but telling myself, “Okay. This is not going to change anything whether I'm closed.” I just knew that it could be a trigger for me because the whole week of being induced with my son, everyone was just like, “Oh, you're still closed. You're still closed. Closed, closed, closed.” This time, I was like, “Okay. I am not going to let it be a trigger. It doesn't mean anything.” I let her check me and of course, I was closed. But honestly, it didn't bother me. Of course, the doctor was like, “We'll have to talk to the other hospital and they're probably going to want you to be induced. If you're not dilated by 40 weeks, then I feel like they're going to want you to have a C-section.” I just left there and I was really just like, “Seriously, no. No. I have come so far,” because I had my other baby so early. It ended up being 38 weeks because I was there for so long. I was like, “No.” I did not schedule another appointment. I was like, “I am not going back until I have my baby,” which probably was not that smart, but I just knew I was going to pay attention to my body, pay attention to baby moving, and if I went too far past, I definitely would make an appointment, but I was like, “I'm not right now. I can't think about that because I don't want them to check me again. I don't want to have a weak moment and be induced.” So anyways, I went on my way. The day before my due date, I ended up drinking some midwife's brew castor oil. I drank that the day before my due date and I ended up within a couple of hours just having intense contractions every 1-3 minutes. This lasted for a few hours. My husband was like, “Okay. Is this labor? Do we need to go?” Because we have a two-hour drive. He ended up calling my friend, Cami, who was going to go as my doula. She, like I said, had a VBAC herself at the same hospital two hours away. So he calls Cami. She comes over and I was just really into these contractions. She said, “Yeah. We have a long drive. Let's just go.” These contractions continued the whole way down there. We get there. At this point, it had been past midnight, so I'm 40 weeks on the dot. They checked me and I was closed. Closed, thick, and high. Meagan: Oh, I bet that was hard. Taylor: Yeah, it was. I had actually had some bloody show on the way there, so I just knew I was going to be dilated. Meagan: Yeah. Taylor: I was like, “Okay, I am not dilated. This isn't real. This is just from the castor oil. I'm going home.” The resident was just like, “Oh yeah. I don't think that's going to happen. You're 40 weeks. You have a previous uterine scar and I just don't think we can discharge you.” I just said, “Yes, you can actually.”Meagan: “I don't think we can discharge you.” Huh. “Hello, I'm leaving.” Taylor: I just remember that my husband was like, “No, no, no,” because we had already been through so much with my first birth, and so I was like, “Yeah. Actually, can you go talk to someone else? Your attending or someone? I'm leaving. I know if I sleep, my contractions will stop. I'm not worried. I know all of the risks.” They tried to tell me the risks so many times. I was like, “Yeah. I know all of the risks and I still want to go home.”Anyways, they came back in, and actually, they made me sign out AMA. I was like, “Oh my gosh. I'm a nurse and I'm signing out against medical advice.” Meagan: AMA. So against medical advice is AMA, everybody. They'll say scary things like, “If you sign this AMA, you might not be welcomed back,” or “If you sign this AMA, insurance won't cover you when you do come back,” or “If you sign this AMA, no one is going to help you.” They scare you.Taylor: Yes. Yep, definitely. And honestly, if I hadn't just listened to so many people's birth stories and done so much research and I didn't know everything I knew, I probably would have been scared into staying which makes me sad for a lot of people because I know I would not have had my baby vaginally if I would have stayed. So I signed out AMA. I went home, slept the whole car ride home and sure enough, my contractions stopped. I was 40 weeks at this point and slept most of the day. I woke up in the middle of the night with these intense-seeming, regular contractions. I was like, “Oh wow. Maybe it's starting for real.” It happened for a couple of hours and ended up stopping. I was like, “Oh wow. Okay. Well, I guess that wasn't real.” So fast forward a few more days and that happened every night. It was horrible. I had some nice prodromal labor. Yeah. It was horrible because I just felt like, “Is labor ever actually going to start? What in the world? What is this?” I just remember my friend, Cami, who was my doula, she was just like, “Taylor, with every contraction, your body is just getting ready. Okay? It's doing what it's supposed to do. Don't be discouraged. You can do it.” She was just so encouraging. I just have to stop and say that a good doula is so key. Oh my gosh. I never even realized. Even as a labor and delivery nurse, I never realized how important. Meagan: It's so true. It's so true, yeah. Taylor: Yes, yes. My husband was so great too. He was awesome. It was the day before I was 41 weeks, so I was 40 + 6. It was my birthday, so my husband and I just went to a quick dinner out and we ended up stopping at the grocery store. I kind of had some random contractions that afternoon every 15 minutes, but again, I had this prodromal labor for a week, so I didn't believe anything was real. We go to the grocery store after dinner and I felt just like, “Maybe I peed my pants.” I went to the bathroom and I was like, “Maybe I did,” because there wasn't much of anything. I was like, “Caleb, I think maybe I accidentally peed my pants or something. I don't know, but we need to go home.” We go home and I just laid down. When I stood up, I felt a big gush. I was like, “No. No, my water's not breaking right now,” because I definitely was not in labor and that was kind of my worst nightmare was my water breaking and not being in labor. Yeah. I definitely knew my water broke. I was like, “Okay. I still feel baby moving. Everything feels fine. I am laying down. I'm just going to try to wait it out and see if maybe contractions will start.” I texted Cami and told her, “I think my water broke, but I'm going to lay down and see if maybe some contractions will start up.” They did. They ended up being every 4-5 minutes for two hours, but I ended up noticing some meconium in my fluid. I just knew, “Okay. Well, I guess we do have a two-hour drive.” I wanted to just stay home so badly just because of the last time driving down there and still being closed. But then I just knew, “Okay. There's meconium and I have been contracting for about two hours. Maybe we'll just go head down.” On the way down there in the drive, I could totally tell that the contractions were spacing out. I just kept trying not to think about it. I had my AirPods in. I was just listening to music trying to be comfortable, trying just to relax as much as possible. We get down to the hospital and get checked in. Basically, they remembered me from the week before. It was actually the same nurse. Meagan: They remembered me.Taylor: They did. They remembered me and basically, instead of a triage room, they took me straight to a labor room. They were not going to let me go home this time which, of course, I didn't. I go in and there were just so many doctors because like I said, it is a teaching hospital. There were so many people in the room. They were just telling me all of the risks again of having a uterine scar and, “Are you sure you don't want a C-section?” I was just like, “No. I don't want one. I've said this so many times.”“Okay. Well–” And I was super uncomfortable because all of these people were there. Bright lights were on and at this point, no contractions whatsoever. Of course, they checked me and I was closed. I was just like, “No. This is not real. This is my worst nightmare. I can't believe this is happening,” because immediately–Meagan: So frustrating. Taylor: Yeah. Immediately, it was, “Okay. Well, you need to sign this form saying you don't want a C-section and then we really want to start Pitocin.” I just said, “Yeah, no. I just need everyone to please leave me alone for a little bit. Can I just be alone in here?” I was so overwhelmed and it was the middle of the night. They were like, “Uhh, sure. We don't have much time because your water has been broken for a few hours and you're not having any contractions, so just know that we are going to come back and talk to you about Pitocin.” I said, “Okay. That's fine. I just, please, want to be left alone. I just want to sleep.” So we ended up being able to sleep for a couple of hours. The next morning came around because it was already 5:00 a.m. when we were there. I wake up and the day shift nurse comes on. She said, “Yeah, they're going to want to come in and talk to you.” I said, “Okay. I just want one person coming in.” I was determined because I tend to be a people pleaser and so I was just like, “No. I am not going to do that again because last night was so uncomfortable with all of those people here. Labor totally sucked. I just want one doctor coming in.” She said, “Okay.” A couple of hours later, a midwife walks in. I'm sure they were like, “This girl's crazy. Who wants her?” A midwife walked in and she was just so awesome and so calm. She asked me what I wanted. I said, “I just really don't want Pitocin. I want a VBAC so badly.” She was like, “Okay” and basically just said, “Well, how about you pump for a little bit, try and do some nipple stimulation to get some contractions started.” She's like, “I really wish that I could tell you to take some midwife's brew.” I guess she had worked at a birth center for 12 years before this teaching hospital. I said, “I have all of the ingredients. Don't worry.” She said, “Okay. Well, if you take it, don't tell me. It could take a few hours, so I'm just going to leave you alone for a while and we'll see if your contractions start up.” I was just so thankful. That just kept the momentum going because I kind of felt at a loss before that like, “Oh, I'm going to have to have Pitocin.” Anyways, I take the midwife's brew, pump, and that afternoon, it was a few hours later, and I did start having contractions. At this point, it was 18 hours after my water had broken, so yeah. I started having contractions and the midwife went off. A new doctor came on and they checked me and I was 1. I was 1 centimeter. I was just like, “Oh my gosh. My cervix dilated. Oh my gosh. I can't believe this is happening.” Even though I was just 1, I remember high-fiving the resident. I was like, “Yes. This is happening.” Little did I know, I still had a long way to go. But yeah. So they were like, “All right. We really want to start Pitocin. You're just really not progressing very much, but 1 is good. But we want to start Pit.” I said, “Okay. I want the absolute lowest dose and I want it as low as you can go basically.” They said, “Okay. We can do that. We'll start low.” My night shift nurse was amazing. They started Pitocin. Literally, after an hour, they had to shut it off. I just started contracting so much. It was really intense. It was, I mean, every two minutes at least. Every 1-2 minutes. They had to shut it off because I was contracting too much. I was in and out of the shower, just throwing up. It felt like I was in transition. It was that intense for hours. I think maybe 4 hours of just sleeping between contractions, again, up to the shower, just walking around the room, not being able to focus on anything but the contractions, my husband and my doula were like, “Man, we really feel like she's been acting like transition for hours. Maybe, Taylor, do you want to be re-checked?”So at 2:00 a.m., they came back in and I was 2. After all of that, legitimately thought the baby was coming and I was 2. The doctor was actually very happy about that. She was like, “You're 2. That's awesome.” I just really actually loved this doctor that was on. But of course, my husband, my doula, and I were like, “Seriously? A 2?” It just felt like all of the air was sucked out of the room because we were all exhausted and I just truly didn't know what I was going to do. They really wanted to start the Pitocin back up because they were like, “Maybe these contractions just aren't strong enough.” I was like, “I can't. I just don't think I can do this plus more Pitocin. This is just so intense.” So they were talking to me. I'm still having these really intense contractions while we are talking. They leave the room. My husband goes out because he just wants to know how he can continue to be positive for me because he basically just wanted to know if something was wrong. So he leaves the room. My doula and I, I was just telling her. I was like, “Is something wrong with me?” I'm crying and I'm just like, “Maybe my body wasn't meant for this. Maybe I really can't do it.” We all were sitting there and she was just trying to be encouraging. The doctor comes back in and she was like, “Taylor, I just really think you need to rest.” Because at this point, I did not have any pain medicine. I didn't have an epidural. I was still determined that I was going to have my unmedicated birth. I ended up going back and forth for a while. “No, I don't want an epidural.” I agreed to some pain medicine. I got to sleep for a little bit. I did end up getting an epidural around 5:30 in the morning and we all got to sleep for a little while. I woke up the next day. My day shift nurse came on and she was like, “Okay. We are going to change your position. We are going to get on this. We are going to have a baby.” I still hadn't had much Pitocin because I was still just contracting so much on my own. My nurse was just amazing. We did a whole circuit of all of these positions which actually, I already knew from being a nurse but a lot of people don't do them. I had actually taken a class that she had taken too. It was kind of like a Spinning Babies class. So I was just like, “Oh my gosh. What are the odds that I get this girl?” I just was so happy. So we did all of the stuff and I started feeling all of the contractions again. I was like, “Okay. Well, maybe the baby is in a weird position or whatnot.” They came in to check me and the doctor was in there for a while. I was like, “Great. She's trying to find my cervix. Can't find it. Oh wow. Still a 2 probably.” Meagan: Or it's gone. Taylor: Yeah, or it's gone.She was like, “Okay. Well, you are a 9.” Meagan: Oh! Really, actually, it was gone. Taylor: Yeah. I was like, “Oh my gosh! What? Are you serious? I'm 9? Because all of this emotion just came flooding because everyone had said, “You probably won't dilate again” or all of these things. I was just like, “I'm 9. Oh my gosh.”Anyway, so I ended up just having a super smooth delivery. I was complete. I just felt like the baby was coming out. I told my doula. She was like, “Yep. Baby is coming out.” I went and got my nurse and I pushed a few times and boom. She came out. I didn't know it was a girl until she came out. Yeah. I just remember being like, “Y'all. I did this. I cannot believe this.” I just was in so much shock. I didn't cry or anything. I just was like, “Yes to everyone who told me I couldn't do it.” It was just amazing. Yeah. I just couldn't believe that I did it. I still can't believe that I did it. Meagan: Yeah. Well, when so many people place doubt, even though we believe that we can do it, we start believing that we can't. We start believing that doubt, right? Taylor: Yes. Meagan: Then having to go through all of what you had to go through and sign an AMA then return at the same stage. All of these things, yeah. That could be a time when you would let self-doubt get you. But you did it. Taylor: Yeah, it was amazing. I did. Oh, I still can't believe it. Meagan: You did it. Oh, that's awesome. Congratulations. I kind of love the doubt stories. I know it sounds really bad, but I have this weird thing. I love proving things wrong because I did the same thing. My doctor doubted me and was like, “Yeah. No one is going to want you there.” I was like, “Yeah. You watch me. You watch me.” It drove me even further, so I love it. I love that you stuck with it. You advocated for you and your husband together. Just so awesome and then having that total shift of positivity and “Let's do this. We're going to have a baby.”It's so important. I want to talk a little bit about labor and delivery nurses as you are a labor and delivery nurse. What tips or suggestions would you give to people that are on the other side like you were? Giving birth and wanting certain things and maybe having a labor and delivery nurse that maybe isn't as supportive of your wishes or pushing hard whether it be them or the provider pushing hard against them. What would you suggest? Taylor: Yes. So my number one thing is to try so hard to research and just educate yourself before you go in. But the biggest thing is asking questions. If you're not sure about something or if you– let's say they want to come in and break your water. You're just like, “Okay. I don't know anything about that, but I don't actually know that I want to do that,” and you don't feel good about it, you don't have to do it. You can say, “No.” I think people don't realize that they can say, “No” or at least ask more questions about it. That is what even as a nurse, I always tell my patients. If a doctor comes in and wants to do something, I say, “Okay. Are you okay with that? Do you have any questions?” Just really advocate, advocate, advocate for yourself because luckily I had an awesome doula. And get a doula!I had an awesome doula and my husband who could bring me back down to Earth and say, “Taylor, no. You don't want this” or “Are you sure about that? Why don't we ask some questions?” But definitely just advocate, advocate, advocate. Ask questions. If they want you to be induced, why? Is there an actual reason? What other options do you have? Ask for options. When I had cholestasis, I didn't know that I could have had another option. My value was not high, my bio acids. It was only 16. Meagan: Ohh. Taylor: Yes. I didn't know. Maybe I could have asked. Could you trend that? Do I have to come in tonight? Meagan: Yeah. Taylor: Yeah. I didn't know and I didn't know then. I think a lot of people probably are like that. You don't know. Meagan: You don't even know that there are different numbers that could make it seem like you don't need to go in right then. Taylor: Right, yes. So advocate for yourself. Ask questions. You know yourself better than anybody. Meagan: Yes. Oh, I love that. I love that so much. Thank you so much again for being with us today. I love your story. It's just so hard coming in. There are so many times where you were like, “It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen.” But look at what patience and time did for you, and making choices like getting an epidural and getting some rest. Your body was able to rest and get the rest it needed to progress and the relaxation that it needed. A lot of people say that you can't have a VBAC without an epidural. Some people say that you have to have a VBAC with an epidural. It just is dependent on that person and that situation. You make the decisions that are best for you. It looks like you nailed it. Taylor: Yes. Thank you so much for having me on here. I still. Thank you so much, Meagan.Meagan: Oh, thank you. Okay, I can't wait for everyone to hear your story. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy