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What you'll learn in this episode: How Nicolas made the jump from the corporate world to jewelry Why there is unlimited potential for the art jewelry market  How Nicolas finds the artists he showcases in his series of jewelry books Why art jewelers should focus on finding customers who love beauty, and not just customers with expendable income About Nicolas Estrada Nicolas Estrada (Medellín, 1972) discovered his artistic pathway in Barcelona, a city that he had come to for entirely different reasons. Until that point, he had been an inhabitant of the business world, where he was involved in marketing. His destiny, however, was to follow another path: creating one-off jewelry artworks that were meaningful, unique and infused with stories that speak to the senses. At Barcelona's Llotja and Massana schools, he came into contact with the jewelry world for the first time, where he discovered that his efforts opened up infinite possibilities for expression to him. He has studied widely, learning the techniques of gemology, setting and engraving. Nicolas has given lectures and workshops at universities and art centers in England, Germany and the United States. In 2019, he was invited to represent his homeland, Colombia, at World Art Tokyo in Japan, where he also had the opportunity to give a lecture and lead a workshop at the Hiko Mizuno College of Jewelry in Tokyo, Japan's most highly regarded jewelry school. Nicolas is the author of the five books in the series on jewelry that has been published by Promopress in several languages and distributed worldwide. Nicolas lives in Barcelona, the city that allowed him to be who he wanted to be and to do what he wanted to do. He has his own studio, where he shares his craft and experiences with other jewelers who also live in or are passing through this wonderful cosmopolitan city. Additional Resources: ·        Linktr.ee: https://linktr.ee/NEJ ·        Instagram: @nicolasestradajeweler ·        Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nicolasestradajeweler ·        Video about his books: https://youtu.be/Ph8aoK8Vg4I ·        Video about his studio & work: https://youtu.be/SxwJYAPZfJQ Photos: Earrings 1: hand-carved rock crystal, gold  Earrings 2: trapiche emeralds, diamonds, silver Brooch: agates with intaglio, silver, steel Ring 1: rock crystal with intaglio, silver, pearls Ring 2: wood, copper, silver, paint Transcript: Although Nicolas Estrada entered the jewelry field later in life, he has as much enthusiasm for the industry as any newcomer. Coming from a background in the business world, he brings a wealth of creativity and keen insight to his work as a maker, researcher, and author. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why he thinks art jewelry will explode if makers tap into the right market, how he compiled his series of jewelry books, and why he finds more meaning in art jewelry than traditional jewelry. Read the episode transcript below.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, speaking with us from Barcelona is my guest, Nicolas Estrada. Nicolas is a maker, entrepreneur and creator of five books featuring art jewelers from around the world. Each book focuses on a different type of jewelry such as necklaces or bracelets, and I'm sure many of you have his books on your shelves. We'll hear more about his jewelry journey today. Nicolas, welcome to the program. Nicolas: Thank you very much for inviting me, Sharon. I am very happy to talk to you today. Sharon: It's great to talk with you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Were you creative as a child? Nicolas: My journey in jewelry started in 2000 exactly, I think around the same month. I was a very creative child. My parents and my sister thought I was going to study design. In Colombia at that time, if you were very creative, you could go to architecture school maybe, but I went into engineering because I wanted to be like my father. So, I went to electrical engineering, but I crashed against a wall in the first semester.  Then I went into business administration. The situation at that time in Colombia was extremely dangerous. All the things you see in the Narcos series, this was my city; this is how I grew up. I think my father was very worried that I was living in the city at that time, so without saying anything, he sent me to Boston to study business. So, the creativity went into a parenthesis for a while. I was always making gifts for my girlfriends, for my friends, but I was going to be an executive. When I came to Barcelona, it exploded. I became a jeweler with many, many things happening in between. If you want, I can tell them, but this is a long story. I don't know if you want me to share it with you. Sharon: I'm curious why Barcelona. How did you go from Boston at Babson College, I think I read, to Barcelona? How did you make that leap? What was the catalyst? Nicolas: In Boston, I had a great time in the university. Babson was a great school. They're international, so I had many friends during the first time in my life by myself. But the winter was so hard, and it was the first time in my life when night arrived at 4:00 and the day started at 9:00. So, at the end of Boston, I went back to Medellín. I worked in a bank for six months. Then I went into a multinational company knitting garments for one or two years, then I went into another consumer goods multinational for another two years and I burned out completely. This corporate world was very hard for me. I was very successful, but the only thing I was getting from this corporate world was money, nothing else. I decided to quit. I started to apply for an MBA at all these Ivy League schools, but I didn't get the GMAT score I needed. So, I was thinking, “O.K., what am I going to do?” My sister was living in Barcelona. I had never been to Spain before, so I decided to go visit her, maybe take the summer for myself, think about life a little bit and decide what to do. I came to Barcelona, and in September I went to a jewelry school because there was professor who was a friend of a boyfriend that my sister was dating at the time. I started to do some jewelry because I wanted to express myself, take a break from the corporate world. It was the first time I had time for myself in five years, because I was always going from one work to another without any holidays in between. I remember in that school, I went to an exhibition and saw work from McClure in Canada and another artist here in Barcelona; it was a museum. I said to myself, “This is the kind of work I want to do for the rest of my life.” I saw that most of the people who were exhibiting in that museum were from the Massana School, former students or professors. I went to talk to Ramón at Massana and he said, “Yeah, transfer and I will receive you here,” and I got into Massana. Sharon: When you say Ramon-- Nicolas: He was my sister's friend. I went to talk to Ramón. He was so friendly, and he said, “Well, yeah, transfer and you will get into Massana. I will make sure you get into it this year.” So, I transferred, he accepted me and I started at Massana. My father was freaked out because, imagine, he had paid so much money for education. I was so successful in Colombia. I was doing extremely well in the corporate world. I was starting to change a little bit, so he was like, “O.K., why don't do jewelry as a hobby and maybe you'll come back to the corporate world.” I said, “Dad, give me a little time and let me decide.”  I think putting all these oceans between Colombia and my life was also very helpful, because in Medellín you don't do what you want; you do what people want you to do. If you are a man, you are supposed to play a certain role in society: not artistic, not cooking, nothing like that, no creativity. You just go into business, or you become a doctor or something like that. Here in Barcelona, nobody knew who I was; nobody cared about me. I've said many times that in Barcelona, it was the first time in my life that I had time for myself and the opportunity to be exactly what I wanted to be. This was also very difficult because I had this background and the commitment with my father. I needed to retribute all the effort he made for paying for my university. When I graduated from Massana, I won a prize. I went to Marseilles as a representative from Massana and I won a prize and went to Germany— Sharon: You're talking about Galerie Marseilles? Nicolas: Exactly. At Massana School, I won the prize for one of the best graduation works. The best works went to Galerie Marseille. I won a prize in Marseille at Galerie Marseille, all the ones who won the prize went to Germany. I won the first prize in Germany. There was a woman here called Pilar Garrigosa. She was a woman—I don't know how you say the word in English, but the woman who supports artists a lot. Sharon: A sponsor, sort of? Nicolas: Yeah, a sponsor, exactly. She's also a jeweler, but she was always sponsoring people she liked. She liked my work, so she invited me to exhibit in her house. My parents were here during that time of the year, and when they saw this exhibition, they realized this is what I was going to do. People were amazed; I was very happy. I saw a lot of work. It was fantastic. So, my father relaxed, and I continued with jewelry. I was with jewelry for a while. This was, what, 2000, 2003, 2004? And it was fantastic.  I was working for a very important jeweler here, not artistic at all, very commercial. I was doing a lot of his pieces and I was earning my livelihood. I liked the craft; I liked working with my hands. I was learning technique, because in jewelry most of the good technicians, they start at 14 in the studio, or at 12 or 16. I started very old in the craft. I took advantage of all this time to go to technical schools, to learn from masters, but most was commercial jewelry. Sharon: When you say commercial jewelry, were you working in what we think of as traditional jewelry, as opposed to art jewelry, where you're working with gemstones? Nicolas: Exactly, yeah. Traditional is a more appropriate word. I needed to earn my livelihood; I needed to pay the mortgage. I needed to bring some money into the house. Artistic jewelry is fantastic for the soul, but very bad for the pocket. I was doing some artistic jewelry, but I was mostly making my life working for this known jeweler here in Barcelona. Sharon: Who was the sponsor you named? I don't know the name.  Nicolas: Her name is Pilar Garrigosa. She's a very important woman here. She's from the family of one of the most important mayors of the city. She had a jewelry gallery a long time ago, and she's a fantastic woman. She also opened the door for me to the jewelry institutions, to many people. I went with her to Munich for the first time. She's still a very good friend of mine, and she was my collector in the beginning. She was buying a lot of pieces from me. She's a woman I am very grateful for. Sharon: What attracted you to art jewelry as opposed to, say, traditional jewelry? What was it that you liked? Nicolas: Traditional jewelry gave me the technique, but I think traditional jewelry sometimes is a little boring because it doesn't speak to the person; it's just gold and gemstones. It's fantastic to know how to do these, but I think the jewelry that speaks, that tells a story, this is the artistic jewelry. This is the jewelry I like to do now. I also try to do some traditional jewelry that has a more artistic look. I am not a professor; I earn my living from jewelry and artistic jewelry. The public is very narrow, so it's difficult to approach a lot of people with artistic jewelry. I like to make more commercial pieces, more traditional jewelry to appeal to a broader audience. Sharon: There is a real market for art jewelry, but it's a lot narrower than regular jewelry. Do you see any changes in that marketplace? Do you see it growing? Do you see it declining? You travel all over the world and talk to art jewelers. Do you see any changes or hot spots, let's say? Nicolas: The thing is that, apart from us, nobody knows what art jewelry is, so the potential for growth is 1000% if we manage to arrive to people. People don't know who we are; they don't even know that this exists. When they see a ring from Niessing, they are overwhelmed, and this ring is from the 40s, 50s. People still believe that jewelry from the 60s is extremely creative. We are not doing a good job at all in showing to the world what we do. The image that people have of jewelry is from Cartier, Bulgari, a diamond from De Beers, the engagement ring they buy in the most traditional store. There's all the potential in the world because people don't know what we do. They have no idea there is another kind of jewelry. Sharon: Every art jeweler has to be a businessperson and market their own things, but you have such a strong business and entrepreneurial background. Do you think that gives you an edge or makes you see things differently in how you sell your stuff or make art jewelry more known? Does this give you more edge? Nicolas: The marketing is very good when you are using somebody else's budget. Sharon: Somebody else's money? Nicolas: Budget, the money from somebody else. If you are a corporation and you get $1 million to invest in advertisement, you do it all perfectly, but when you have to sell yourself, this is extremely difficult. Also, I think nothing prepares you in life for rejection when people say, “This is too ugly,” or you have things in red, blue or white, but they want it in yellow, the color that you don't have. You have variety, but people want exactly what you don't have. For me, no matter how well you are trained, rejection and negativity and these things are very difficult to take. The business world prepares you maybe to manage money, to invest, to be organized, but it doesn't prepare you for the artistic world, because the artistic world is extremely difficult. As you said before, it's not that we are not only the owners of our business. We have to be the photographer; we have to write; we have to deal with social media; we have to teach and we have to speak, so we are all in one. We need to be very well prepared. Sharon: That's so true. Nothing prepares you for the rejection when it's your own work. Maybe somebody has been out in the world as a salesperson, but they're not selling their own things. It's so personal when somebody says, “It's too expensive,” or “Do you have it in yellow?” How was it that you started compiling books? Why don't you tell everybody about them? Nicolas: Since I started in the artistic world, I tried to be receptive to all the doors that open in life. You have to be very careful of what you ask for, because usually what you ask for is going to arrive. I try to be prepared every time a door opens. Usually for me, it's very difficult to say no to things.  When I mentioned to you before that I got this prize here in Barcelona, there was a guy in the exhibition of the winners. He liked my piece, so he made me do one piece for his girlfriend and we kept in touch. He's a little bit older than I am, maybe two or three years older, so we were seeing each other in all of our exhibitions, in the art scene in the city. One day our friend said, “I have a friend who is a publisher and he would love to publish a book about jewelry. I will tell him to call you.” This was in 2005. In 2010, I got the phone call from this guy, five years later when I had totally forgotten about it. He told me he was selling the books from the Lark Books publisher, like the “1,000 Rings” books that are fantastic, and that opened the door for all of us. So, I said yeah, but I want to make a book for my house. I said, “Look, I don't copy things, but we can start talking about different languages, different artists, stuff like that.” We started to talk about it. This was in 2009 maybe. I started to do some research, to look at all the books, and we started with “Rings.” We were calling at that time; this was by email and calling and by regular mail. We published the “Rings” book in 2010 and it was a total success.  Then we did “Earrings.” It was also very successful. After “Earrings,” we did “Necklaces.” “Necklaces” is one of my favorite books because it allowed me to show for the first time the people who wear the kind of jewelry we make. In “Rings” and “Earrings,” you don't see much of the face or the body, but in “Necklaces,” I was able show the people. The British publisher who buys most of the books from the catalogue publisher didn't like some of the bodies, so this was the big heat. The catalogue publisher said, “No, we'll go with the book anyway.” This was also a very difficult book. Now we have five books. It's like one book every two years. Sharon: They are so fabulous. I have a hard time looking at some of them because the jewelry is so beautiful. It's so creative and fantastic, and it's also a great way to learn about other artists, too. There are a lot of names I'm sure a lot of people don't know or aren't familiar with. Do you search these people out? I'm sure they come to you also. How do you find them? It's such a variety and so global. How do you find them all? Nicolas: Well, Sharon, after so many years in the field—the first book was extremely difficult. I had to invite every single person in that book because nobody knew me. Many people didn't trust me. There were even some people in Argentina trying to bring the book down because they thought I was going to steal all the images. This was so difficult to make. Now, after so many trips to Munich, so many trips all around the world looking at nice jewelry, I have my database. I also make huge calls everywhere. I think I reach a big jewelry audience with this call. For example, in the “Bracelet” book, I was surprised because 60% of the people who are in this book—it's the last book—I didn't know anything about. I was very afraid of this book because it was going to be the end of a collection in a way, so I wanted this book to be beautiful. But not too many people make bracelets, so I was always in fear, “Am I going to fail? This is not going to be good enough.” But at the end, I got all this information from people I didn't know anything about. To answer your question, in the first book, I had to invite every single participant. In the last book, the attention was so nice that I was bombarded by applications of many people I didn't know anything about and has surprisingly beautiful work. Sharon: What kept you going if the first book was so difficult? Was it that the publisher said, “O.K., we're past the worst. Now, let's get to the second book”? What kept you going? Nicolas: For me, as I said before, we have huge potential because mostly nobody knows what we do. This is the seed I give. This is my way of contributing to the field to show to a broader audience that rings are not only from Cartier; there are many more rings. If you want to adorn yourself, you don't have to go Bulgari; you don't have to go Fifth Avenue in New York. You can look for people, crazy guys, crazy girls, who make things in an atelier and get dirty and cut themselves. There's a very beautiful way to adorn yourself if you go away from the most traditional sources. This is how I want to contribute to the field that has given me so much. Jewelry is my life. Jewelry makes me a happy man because I love the field; I love my work; I admire my colleagues very much. This is a way for me to give back.  Also, to be very honest, books give me a little bit of a reputation in the field. The artistic world is so hard most of the time. This reputation is a little fuel to my ego to keep going after rejection, after failing to sell, after not doing well in the gallery. I get the messages of people who are in the book, “Oh, I love your work. My pieces look fantastic.” I get back a little bit. I get very nice feedback and it makes very happy. So, I want to contribute to the field. I get a reputation. It's a balance. It helps me a lot. Sharon: They're beautiful books. Do you think it's opened some people's eyes, people who didn't know about this kind of jewelry? It's certainly a great way to do it. It's a great introduction if somebody doesn't know anything about the field. Do you think it's opened people's eyes? Nicolas: Totally, yeah. To give you a personal example, my mother didn't know this kind of jewelry existed, and now she's sharing these with all her friends. If we give a book like this to friends, if we open their eyes, little by little we're going to create a broader audience. That is what we need. I think the luxury world is not our world. The luxury world for me is very boring. If you are a man, you go to Armani, you buy off the mannequin, so you dress like the mannequin, same tie, same suit, same belt. You go to Rolex and buy the watch because in the luxury world, you want to show how much money you have and how much you are worth. I think we are never going to reach the luxury world because we don't sell prestige, but we sell a story. I think we have to look for the people who go to museums, who are more responsive to a storm or a sunset or the beautiful things in life, not only money. These are the people I try to target because these are the people who want to invest in the things that make them happy, not in the things that show others how much money they have. These are the people I want to target with the books, with my jewelry, with our approach. There are so many people like this in the world. Millionaires, there are a few, but I think there are many more people who are responsive to beauty, and these are the people who we want to approach. Sharon: Do you have another book in the hopper or in mind? Is there another one, or do you feel like you've covered the gamut? Nicolas: “Bracelets” was delayed one year because of the pandemic. It was supposed to be released in 2020, but it just got released in January of this year. I am taking my time to enjoy the book, to enjoy the comments, to make sure all the participants get their copies. I think there is going to be another book in the very near future, but I don't know exactly what it is going to be. The thing with these books, Sharon, is that they cannot only be beautiful books; they also need to be commercial books because they are business for the publisher. Many books you see are exploring beauty and everything, but they are targeted to a certain audience. The books I make, they need to sell out. They need to get everywhere; they need to have a second edition, otherwise the publisher is not going to be interested. I have to talk to him and see what is going to be beneficial for him and beneficial for me. We have to get together maybe later this year, during the second semester, and start deciding what are we going to do next, because this is exacting work. It's not that I go to the publisher and tell him what to do. This is a work; I am the author and I make compilations for them, but they are the ones who sell and they are the ones who invest. They are the ones who need to get back their investment.  Sharon: Right, I understand. They have to make money. Well, it's a good thing they sell because it's a great series. Thank you so much for being here today. Hopefully when the next book comes out, we'll have you back. Thank you so much, and good luck with everything. We'll be talking with you. Nicolas: It was a fantastic invitation. Thank you very much, and I hope we can have a reality again without all the virtuality. Virtuality is amazing, the way we manage to discover the spiritual world that connects to many people, but I think we miss the hug; we miss touching; we miss seeing; we miss saying hello, having a drink. I hope to see you again very soon here in Barcelona, in Munich or somewhere else in the world, Sharon.  Sharon: I look forward to it. We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for reading. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

What you'll learn in this episode: Why the Netherlands has a high concentration of the world's art jewelry galleries Why public funding and support is crucial for the survival of art jewelry How Rob finds new artists, and how he defines what a strong piece is How Rob uses social media to find clients across the world  About Rob Koudijs Rob Koudijs is the founder and owner of Galerie Rob Koudijs, a 100-square-meter exhibition space located in the gallery district in the center of Amsterdam. The gallery specializes in contemporary art jewelry which communicates ideas, has sculptural qualities, and uses materials in innovative ways. The gallery represents a group of jewelry artists who produce work challenging the borders of the applied and the fine arts. As these artists come from all corners of the globe, the latest international developments are on display in regular solo shows and in the gallery's collection. As well as showing jewelry, Galerie Rob Koudijs stocks a range of books and catalogues by the represented artists. Additional Resources:  Website Facebook Instagram Photos: EVERT NIJLAND necklace ‘Red'; silver, glass photo: Eddo Hartmann NHAT-VU DANG earrings ‘Dominique'; silver photo: Ceyhan Altuntas TERHI TOLVANEN necklace ‘Lunatic'; silver, wood, windowpane oyster photo: Terhi Tolvanen ESTHER BRINKMANN ring ‘20ba-4'; fine gold, iron, jade photo: Esther Brinkmann HELEN BRITTON brooch ‘19B022'; silver, tiger eye, lapis lazuli, jasper photo: Helen Britton PAUL ADIE ring 'Talk to Me'; silver, aluminium photo: Paul Adie Transcript: Rob Koudijs knew he was taking a risk by leaving his original career path and opening an art jewelry gallery in Amsterdam. That risk paid off, because Rob Koudijs Gallery is still going strong nearly 15 years later, despite jewelry still being a niche art form. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he discovered his interest in contemporary jewelry, where he thinks the industry is headed, and why the Netherlands has a robust culture of art jewelry. Read the episode transcript below.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Rob Koudijs—I'm going to let him pronounce his name—founder of a leading art and jewelry gallery in Amsterdam. He's also a leading figure in championing art jewelry. We will hear about his jewelry journey today. Rob, welcome to the program. Rob: Thank you very much, Sharon. Sharon: I'm so glad to talk with you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. How did you get involved in jewelry and art jewelry in particular? Rob: Do you want to have the long story or the short one? Sharon: We want the full story. Rob: Then I will start where it all began. That was about 40 years ago. I met the man who is now my husband. He was starting architecture in Delft, and when I was in Delft, we went to an art gallery. They had jewelry and he thought, “O.K., I'm an architect. This jewelry is very conceptual, very architectural, and I can wear it.” He bought a piece from Joke van Ommen I don't know if you know her, but Joke van Ommen was a Dutch artist. A few years later, she went to the United States and founded Jewelerswerk in Washington. I think that must be interesting for you as well. That's how it started. It was not me; it was he who bought a piece, and then he got interested. We both were interested in art and design, but we didn't know anything about contemporary jewelry. We thought about finding books about it. Well, there was nothing in the world, not at that time. We are talking about 1979. There was one book shop in Amsterdam and they had books—I don't where they found them—about contemporary jewelry. I'm telling you about that art book shop because we were invited to a birthday party there. There we met Ruudt Peters —you probably know him—and he— Sharon: Ruudt Peters? Rob: Ruudt Peters, that's how you pronounce it. It is a funny journey, because he invited us to his birthday party, and I'm talking about 40 years ago. There was a friend of his called Marie-José, and she had just started a gallery. She also started going to an art fair, and she invited us to come to that art fair. We went there, and I think within five minutes I started selling. I always say she discovered my talents in contemporary jewelry. She told me later on that she saw my enthusiasm about the work, so she asked me if I'd help her with the art fair. I did that for 10 years, only at my holidays, of course, because I had a totally different job; I was working in healthcare, psychiatry. I took vacations every year to help her with the art fair and to help her open the gallery. That's what I did for 10 years; that's how it started, and of course, I got a lot of inspiration from that.  We started buying jewelry—well, you know how it works. Before, there was not that much in the Netherlands. Marie-José just started. When you are getting interested in contemporary jewelry, you think, “This is fantastic, but where can I find it?” So, we went looking for galleries. We found one gallery and we started buying things, and we went to Gallery Marzee and started buying pieces. At one moment, we discovered there was another gallery that opened. That was in 1985, I think, and that was Louise Smit Gallery. So, there were some galleries. There was one in Delft as well, Louis Martin. I became involved in the jewelry world, but it was not my job. Shall I go on? Sharon: Please.  Rob: After 10 years helping Marie-José she went to the big building where she is now. You probably have been there. Then we stopped working together. Later, we visited the Louise Smit Gallery and she said, “O.K., sit down. I'm here now for 10 years. I don't see what's going on in the jewelry world anymore, and I need a business partner.” It's a long story, but I became business partner in the Louise Smit Gallery. Sharon: Is that still going? I don't know. Rob: No, it's not there anymore. It existed for 10 years and then I did it for 10 years. The 20-year celebration, I was still there. The idea was that she should focus on the big names, the big artists she was already working with, and it was my task to find new talents. That's what I did, and I'm still working with them. I have to tell you—I wrote it down—we are talking about 25 years ago, and we started with lots of students, and most of them came from the Netherlands. They had all their education at Rietveld Academie, but we also went to Munich and then we found students there. I brought them into that gallery. I was a business partner, so I got the young talent over there, and that's how it worked. We did it for 10, years and then very abruptly—is that how you say that?  Sharon: Yes. Rob: It didn't work out very nicely. She stopped our companionship, and that was that, my 20 years in contemporary jewelry. So I thought, “O.K., this was so nice.” I liked it so much. I did it next to my other job, and I thought, “O.K., I have to try it myself because if I don't, I will regret it the rest of my life.” It was 2006, and a few months later—I don't know, half a year later—in April 2007, I opened my own gallery. The idea was, O.K., there were two galleries in Amsterdam. There was one gallery in Delfts. I thought, “It's crazy. We are a very small country. Contemporary jewelry is a niche in the art world, so will there a public for it?” But, I thought, “If I don't do it— let's give it a try, and if after a year I see it doesn't work out, I will stop with it.” Well, that's now 14 years ago and I'm still here. That's more or less the story over 40 years and how it all started.  Sharon: Wow! I love the fact that you're saying you realized you would regret it for your whole life if you didn't do it. I think of things myself where I thought, “If I don't this, I'll just—” It didn't work out, but at least I can try. Rob: Exactly, that's what I thought, and that's how it all started. Of course, I was very dedicated to contemporary jewelry. Some artists stayed in the older galleries, but there were a lot of artists that needed a gallery. That's what's still going on now. There are not that many galleries in the world. So, I thought, “O.K., I'll just give it a try,” and I didn't regret it at all. Sharon: There's a handful of galleries in the world, and there are really not that many that were doing. There's a handful. The majority seem to be in the Netherlands. There are not that many in the world. I don't think there are a dozen.  Rob: It's funny, because it's not like that anymore, but at a certain moment, I think we had five galleries for contemporary jewelry in the Netherlands. At the moment, there are only two—well, the galleries with big names. It's Marie-José and it's me in Amsterdam. That's because the other galleries closed, so there are only two galleries. It's still a lot for such a small country. Sharon: Why do you think that is? What is it that the Netherlands has, where you have two galleries or in the past had five, when the rest of the world has so few? It's so unusual. Rob: No, you're right. I've thought it over a lot, and I've gotten that question many times as well. Probably it has something to do with—not now, but in the past. In the past, in the Netherlands, artists got very good grants. Museums bought contemporary jewelry, and there was a lot of publicity about contemporary jewelry. I think the focus was on contemporary jewelry. I don't know why. We always say it has something to do with the 60s, when Dutch jewelers started. I don't know why it happened that way, but I think the government was important. The grants, that's what it's all about, because otherwise most of the jewelry artists cannot live from what they are doing. When you get a grant, you can develop yourself, and that's what happened. That's why all these artists, the names I told you before, all these artists are still working. After 25, 30 years, they are still there and they are still successful. It has something to do with that.  What you see now is that there are no grants anymore, not for jewelry artists. There is no publicity. Museums don't buy that much. There's only one wonderful museum in the Netherlands. You probably have heard of it; maybe you've been there. It's the CODA Museum in Apeldoorn, and they have the biggest collection of contemporary jewelry at the moment. Through the years, Stedelijk Museum didn't buy any more. Rijksmuseum, they have a nice collection, but they don't buy. You can be successful, or a field in the art world can be successful if there's publicity, if there are grants, and if the museums are interested. There were a lot of exhibitions, like I said, but it's all in the past. The jewelry is still there and the collections are there. The Stedelijk Museum has a big collection, and they started early. I don't know how it is in the states, but they all started after the war, in the 50s, 60s buying contemporary jewelry. I don't know if that's the reason, but that's what we think. It has something to do with it.  Sharon: It makes a lot of sense. I'm interested in the fact that you use the term contemporary, because if you were going to Google contemporary jewelry, you wouldn't see a lot of these names come up. You'd see more—I don't mean to knock it, but run-of-the-mill or production jewelry as opposed to art jewelry. But you use contemporary jewelry. Do people know what you're talking about when you use it? Suppose you are at an art fair. I'm just interested in the fact that you use the term contemporary jewelry as opposed to art jewelry.  Rob: When I use my hashtags on Instagram, I use art jewelry, studio jewelry, contemporary jewelry; I use them all, because I think in the world, not only in the Netherlands, we use all those names. There is no specific name for it, as far as I know. Sharon: There isn't. It's such a nebulous name. There's not one name that says what it is. Rob: Yeah, you can call it art jewelry or art you can wear, sculpture to wear. I think the problem is when you are talking about a painting or a sculpture, well, that's what it is. You have contemporary sculpture and you have antique sculpture, but it is very difficult. Like I said, it is probably because it is a niche in the art world, and you want to be different from the big jewelry shops, somewhere where they sell the gold and the diamonds. That's not what we are doing and what our artists are doing, but there's not a specific name for it, no. Sharon: What was it that attracted you initially? Was it the art aspect of it? You could have been attracted to gold and diamonds. What was it that attracted to art and jewelry? Rob: No, it's more the integration of the artistic concepts. It's art and it's design and it has craft. Craft, for me, is very important, all the crafts that are used and the combination of that. Like I said before, my husband and I were interested in art and design and architecture, but this integrates it all. We could wear it, because especially 40 years ago, it was very common for men to wear jewelry. That's why we started with geometrical jewelry. I think it has something to do with that. It integrates a lot of things. It's small sculpture. I talk to a lot of collectors, and if you are collecting sculpture, for instance, or paintings or photos, all your walls are full. When you are collecting contemporary jewelry, you have the most wonderful pieces of art, and you can put them in a drawer and go on till you die. Sharon: This is a question I have; I've thought about it a lot. What is a collector? When do you cross the line from being someone who is just an enthusiast into being a collector? When do you become a collector? Rob: Some people are opposed very much to the word collector. For a long time, we didn't like to be collectors. We just bought things we liked and we could wear. At a certain moment, you have over a hundred pieces, and then other people are calling you a collector. I know the same thing happens with clients in the gallery, for instance. They also don't like to be called a collector, but at a certain moment, they have so many good and strong pieces. Then other people start calling you a collector, and then you are a collector whether you want to be or not. Sharon: Another question, perhaps not so easy to answer: When you say good and strong pieces, what's a good and strong piece? Is a good and strong piece one that I love? Maybe it's by a certain artist. Rob: When someone asks me that, I always give the same answer: It is very personal. Our personal is that we like architectural, sculptural jewelry. We like brooches because we are men and we don't wear necklaces. So, our focus is on that. When we say it is strong, it has to do with that. It has to be sculptural, and of course it also has something to do with the artist. You follow the artist and think, “O.K., this is new. This is interesting,” because it's also important that there is somewhat of a development in what an artist is doing. I think that makes it a strong work, but it is very personal. What you think is good or strong or special, I cannot say it for the whole world. It's only for me. Sharon: As a gallerist, you must be inundated with artists saying, “Are you interested in carrying my work?” or who come to you and say, “Let me be in your gallery.” How do you sift through all of this? Rob: That is a very difficult part of being a gallerist, because you have to disappoint people, especially disappoint artists. There are not that many galleries and there a lot of artists. Most of the time when people reach out to me by email or they come to the gallery, I always say, “Send me some images and don't expect me to react.” That doesn't sound very kind, but if I can't do that, I should hire someone to do that for me, because we got a lot of questions about it, “I want to show my work in your gallery.” We are always looking if it is an adjustment to the artists we have in the gallery, for instance. I think that's very important. And is it new? Is it something special I haven't seen before? With the adjustment to the other artists, I don't want three or four artists there that look the same. I'm not interested in that. That's what's happening, and most of the time, to be honest, we find the artists ourselves. Sharon: At shows? Rob: Yeah, it doesn't happen often that people reach us and send us emails or show us work and we say, “Oh yeah, that's fantastic for the gallery.” It doesn't happen that often, no. Sharon: Do you find them at shows like Schmuck, or what's the one in the Netherlands? Rob: No, there is not that much in the Netherlands. Schmuck is very important, but there is something else. We've known all the artists so along already, 25, 30, 35 years, and they know other artists. Sometimes they say, “I know a guy, I know a girl. Have a look at it.” That helps us as well. We don't go to all the graduation shows. For us, it's important to go to Schmuck in Munich. Sharon: We should tell people what Schmuck is. I'm sorry; go ahead. Schmuck being the art jewelry week in Munich. Rob: In Munich, yes. Schmuck is actually the German word for jewelry, but everybody calls it Shumuck now. Things are changing. We went to all the graduation shows, and of course we follow the artists who are graduating and want to give them a platform in the gallery. We want to show young artists, but that has changed. It's not that strong in school anymore, not for contemporary jewelry. There are not many artists from the Rietveld Academie anymore, so we have to find them all over the world, and that's what we do. We have artists from all over the world, from New Zealand, from Austria, from the United States. Most of them come from Europe, but we are a very international gallery.  Sharon: Do you have clients from all over the world? People buying from the gallery all over the world? Rob: Yes, that has a changed as well. When we started, it was mostly from the Netherlands or from Europe, when people could travel, of course, but that has changed as well. The world is smaller. We have Facebook. We have Instagram. We make online catalogues. You probably have seen a few from us. We reach out to our clients in the world, and there are some very good collectors in the world, especially in the United States. So, we have clients from all over the world, from all countries in Europe, from the United States, and from Australia. These are the countries from where we get clients. Sharon: In terms of dealing, I don't know how it's been in the Netherlands with Covid. Have you been doing more online with Covid, or even before that?  Rob: We did a lot. Like I said, I'm very active on Facebook and especially Instagram, because I think it's an important medium at the moment. During lockdown, I think we did something by email every week, by Facebook, by Instagram; we sent out to the world. We had the idea while we were in lockdown in the beginning of last year. We were closed for over four months, and then we were closed for 3.5 months. I just opened up a few weeks ago. So, we had to reach out to our clients by email and make it interesting. That's why we started to make those online catalogues to seduce our clients.  Something else was very important first—that's how it actually started. We had to let them know we are closed, but we are there and we still have those wonderful artists who we work with, and they're making new work. We asked them to make new work. They did, and we want to show it to you, and it worked. It kept us through. You have seen my place; it's not for nothing that you rent a place like that. We needed to pay the rent and so on. It was tough, but it worked because we worked very much online in the last year. I don't think we'll stop, even though we're open again. We discovered what we could do to find a bigger audience.  Sharon: What do you see as the trends, or where do you see the global market in art jewelry going? Do you think it's an increasing interest? Some people think no, it really hasn't changed. I like to think it's growing, but that's just my American optimism. Where do you see art jewelry? Do you see it expanding the market? Do you see more galleries opening, more interest, more people understanding it? I can't claim to understand it, but I'm just asking what you think. Rob: Let's just say it this way, Sharon: I hope so. I don't know. What happened in the art world with photography—that's already quite some time ago—it started to explode and was seen as real art. I hope that would happen to contemporary jewelry as well, but not at this moment. There are fewer galleries. All the galleries are old, more or less; there are a few younger, but most of them are old, so it will stop. I don't know. I think the biggest problem is that it's wonderful to do it. It's the best thing I have done in my life, but if you are young and you have a family and you have to live from it, I don't think it will work out. It will be very difficult; otherwise, you have to commercialize, and that's what I don't want. If I should do it that way, then I stop immediately.  Sharon: When you start selling the T-shirts with the gallery name.  Rob: Yes, for instance. That can be a problem. You probably follow the jewelry world as much as we do, and you know when you go to auctions, we always hope the jewelry will get a higher price. Sometimes it works, but it has to be gold. You see at auctions that good pieces from good artists from the last 50 years, they go up in price, but it has to be from precious materials. Well, not all our artists' work is made of precious materials. They work with wood and glass and textile. They also work with gold and silver and pearls and diamonds, but they use it not for the sake of gold or diamonds. They use it as their material to express themselves. So, I hope it will get better, especially for all those artists who are working so hard, but it still is a niche in the art world. Sharon: Yes, very much so. Thank you so much for talking with us today. I'm glad things have opened and that you are expanding in the online world so more people can see what you're doing and what you have. Thank you so much for talking with us today. Rob: Thank you, Sharon. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why Marie-José developed the Marzee Graduate Prize to help young jewelry artists How she secured the historic building her gallery and apartment are located in Who Marie-José's favorite artists are, such as Dorothea Prühl Why the term “art jewelry” is redundant How the pandemic inspired Marie-José to look closer to home for exhibition ideas About Marie-José van den Hout Born in Roermond in the Netherlands, Marie-José van den Hout grew up in a family of three generations of ecclesiastical gold- and silversmiths. It was in the workshop of her grandfather, a renowned craftsman who specialized in repoussé and chasing, that her passion for gold grew and flourished. Alongside two of her brothers, Marie-José worked in her father's studio before studying gold- and silversmithing and then fine art at the Academy of Fine Arts in Maastricht. She established Galerie Marzee in Nijmegen in 1979 and was honored with the title of Officer of the Order of Oranje-Nassau at the gallery's 40th anniversary celebrations in June 2019. Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Openingstijden / opening hoursdi-vr 10.00-18.00 uur, za 10.00-17.00 uur Tue-Fri 10am-6pm, Sat 10am-5pm Photos: Otto Künzli, Quidam XVIII, 2019, brooch; Corian, plastic, operculum, acrylic paint, steel, 75 x 87 mm  Rudolf Kocéa, Tears, 2019, necklace; fine silver, enamel, stainless steel, pendant: 80 x 110 x 20 mm, L 600 mm  Barbara Paganin, Rose, 2017, necklace; polymethylmethacrylate, oxidised silver, gold, 200 x 200 x 20 mm    Vera Siemund, untitled, 2019, necklace; enamelled copper, copper, steel, silver, 100 x 60 x 40 mm  Dorothea Prühl, necklace, Raben im Kreis (Ravens in a circle) 2020, titanium and gold    Transcript: Located in a former grain warehouse on the banks of the River Waal in the Netherlands, Galerie Marzee is the largest (and some would say the most influential) art jewelry gallery in the world. The gallery was founded in 1979 by Marie-José van den Hout, who has spent her lifetime immersed in jewelry, goldsmithing, and art. She joined the podcast to talk about the exhibitions she's working on now, why she dedicates so much time to helping art and jewelry students, and how an exhibition of combs put Galerie Marzee on the map. Read the episode transcript below.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Marie-José van den Hout, founder and owner of Galerie Marzee, the world's largest art jewelry gallery. The gallery is located in the Netherlands. Marie is a highly regarded leader in the field of art jewelry and has an interesting story, which we'll hear about today. Marie-José, welcome to the podcast. Marie: Thank you. Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey. You studied metalsmithing. When did you start liking art jewelry or jewelry? Marie: I started at eight, I think. Well, my journey started when I was four or five years old. My great-grandfather, although I never knew him, and my grandfather and my father were gold and silversmiths, but they didn't make jewelry; they made objects for Roman Catholic churches. I grew up with all these objects, which now are exported from Europe to America because there are too many and museums can't have them anymore. Anyway, when I was four years old, my father made a ring for me, and I was very proud of that ring. I was not interested in jewelry. He sometimes made rings for friends or for my mother, but he made a ring for me when I was a child and I took it. I was allowed, against his wishes to be honest, to take it to kindergarten. In the class, I very proudly showed this ring. At the time, those classes were huge, 40, 50 children, so it went around the class and it never came back to me, the ring. I was very shy; I didn't dare say anything to the teacher, so I went home without a ring. Many years later, I had an exhibition with Manuel Vilhena. He's a Portuguese jeweler. He had his exhibition and he made a ring from a string, just a simple string, and he said, “This is your ring. I know why you started the jewelry gallery; because you're still looking for your ring.” I found this such a beautiful story.  So, my journey started when I was four, but to be honest, it didn't really, because I was not interested in jewelry at all, not a bit. I always used to like drawing and painting. In those times, you learned to do those crafts at home, and the best teachers are your parents. At the academy where I went in Maastricht, they once asked my father—they wanted him to be a teacher at the academy, and he said, “No, no, no, no, I'm not interested.” But then we, my two brothers and me, went to the academy. We had to, because you were not allowed to work as a gold and silversmith and make pieces when you didn't have the—what do you call this? The mark you have.  Sharon: The hallmark? Marie: Yes, you had to go to the academy to get this hallmark. We did go there every day, the three of us by car. It was two hours' drive from our home, but in the end, it turned out I was not that interested, so I changed direction and went to painting and sculpture. Sharon, there is something I'm not that proud of. I met a man—I was 20, 21—my first boyfriend, who I thought was such a fantastic artist and painter that I stopped doing that altogether and I returned to gold and silversmithing. In the end, we worked at home designing, doing all the crafts.  As a child, I loved to go to my grandfather. He was very well-known for making those figures in gold and silver, and he was invited all over the world, all over Europe to restore church treasures. Although we are Dutch, my father was born in Cologne, because my grandfather at the time worked in Cologne restoring the treasury of the Dome of Cologne. My aunt was born in Brussels in Belgium, where my grandfather worked for the Dome of Brussels, and so on. He worked in Paris. At the same time, what he did—I loved my grandfather—after his work, he was always sitting in museums. You know those people who are sitting there and copying famous paintings? I once went to Paris to a museum, and I saw a painting and thought, “No, this can't be. My grandfather did this.” It turned out it was a famous painting by Monet. So, my life, my youth, was all in art, in gold, painting and silversmithing. But in the end, I didn't do all those things because I married, and within a year I had three children because I have twins. Sharon: Not much time between. Marie: Not that much. Sharon: With everything else, yeah. Marie: In the meantime, my father had died, and my two brothers didn't make those church things anymore. There was not much interest in those at the time, so they turned to jewelry. Both made jewelry, but my younger brother—I liked him very much; we had a very good relationship—he asked me, “I think you could be a very good shopkeeper and I would like to start a shop in Roermond.” He lived in  Roermond, which is 100 kilometers south of Nijmegen, and he had several shops already in Holland. I said, “O.K., I'll do this. It's possible do this while having children.” So, I did this for some time. It was modern jewelry, but not the kind I was interested in.  At the time, I visited another gallery, and I have to confess I was much more interested in the sort of art jewelry there. So I changed my policy; I went everywhere to look at this sort of jewelry. In the end, my brother was not so happy with my change of thought, and he said, “I don't want you to have my jewelry anymore,” which, Sharon, was a shame, because it was good jewelry. It sold very well. It was mostly gold and diamonds, but in a modern way. So, suddenly I could hardly survive, because the sort of jewelry we are dealing with now is very hard to sell. Sharon: I'm sorry—did you say very hard to sell? Marie: Very hard to sell, yes. It's really difficult. Anyway, I worked very hard, 12 hours a day. I was always working. My children were complaining. They said to me—I have three children—and they said, “Mom, you hear me, but you're not listening.” Now, they're proud of me, and two of them, when I stop, will carry on with the gallery. This is more or less the beginning of this journey. In the very beginning, the work I showed looked like what Galerie Ra showed. In the end it was completely different, because I traveled through Europe, traveled to academies, traveled to artists and so on, and I had my complete own style. It's what I'm doing now. Sharon: So just in case people don't about Galerie Ra, can you tell us a little bit about that? Marie: Galerie Ra in Amsterdam was a small gallery funded by Paul Derrez and Louis Martin, two of them. Later on Paul carried on on his own, and last year, after I think 40 years, he stopped with his gallery. He had to rent a shop in Amsterdam, and once every five years you have to have a new contract, and he thought, “This is too long for me. In the meantime, I can't stop because I still have to pay the rent.” So, he stopped, and last week on Koningsdag, King's Day, he got a medal from the king. He is an officer in the Order of Orange-Nassau; that is how our kingdom is called. I had this honor two years ago with the 40th anniversary of the gallery. In 2019, I also got this order. You can compare it with OBE in Britain. Sharon: Wow!  Marie: It is sort of like that. It's a huge medal. If people would have asked me, “Would you be interested in having anything like this?” I would say, “What nonsense. No, please, no,” but at the anniversary in 2019— Sharon: The 48th anniversary. Marie: I was so surprised and I was so proud. Sharon: That's quite an honor, wow! Marie: It was really nice. They said, “We were so frightened you would say”—I told you I can be quite undiplomatic—“Oh, what a horrible medal,” because it's not a very nice design. It's old, of course, but I didn't say it. I was very honored. All of this was based on the fact that I do so much for young artists. Sharon: You do. Marie: With the annual graduate show. Sharon: Tell us about the annual graduate show. It's so well-known.  Marie: I started this 30 years ago. I'm now in this beautiful building. It's a huge building overlooking the River Waal, and it has four stories. At the time, I was in a smaller building, not that small really, but I wanted to do something completely different. I said, “I'd like to work with young people and see if I can guide them or travel with them in their development.” I started making exhibitions that were quite small. I had an academy in Amsterdam. I had Maastricht and Utrecht, and I think Holzheim in Germany. It was quite small, but it in end, it developed. Now, it's 740, 750 schools from all over the world. Mostly there are between 17 and 19 participants, and all the floors of the gallery are full of young graduate work.  What can I say about this? In the beginning, there was just the show and the opening. Later on, 10 years ago, I started having a symposium on Monday. The participants came to Holland from everywhere, from America, from Australia, from Japan. So then on Monday, all the participants showed their work to their colleagues. There was this huge show, and, for instance, the first artist took one of her or his pieces out of the show, put it on the next graduate—so he or she was the model—and then they started talking about the work. It went on and on, sort of like—what do you call it?—it went from one to the other. Of course, they were not used to talking in public, so it was quite emotional. People were very nervous, but it was heartbreakingly beautiful. Also the fact that they came from all over the world, it was really something. People traveling from America, it's not that expensive to travel to Holland, but from Australia, it's a really expensive trip. From Japan it's really expensive, so it's very good they came.  Then 10 years ago, I started to award the Marzee Prize, the Marzee Graduate Prizes. They were awarded to six to eight people, but sometimes there was so much beautiful work that I had 10 people. The prize consisted of a workshop in Ravary, an estate in Belgium. Some friends of mine built a large workshop there. It's paradise, where they can work for a whole week. Everyone has a bedroom and we cook together; we talk together. It's working deep into the night; also drinking deep into the night. Unfortunately, last year we didn't have this workshop. We are not allowed to travel. This year there will probably not be a workshop, either, so that's a pity. The borders are still closed. We are not allowed to travel to Germany, which from here is only five kilometers. Belgium is a bit further, but we are not allowed.  A few years ago, also to try to help young people, I started Intro in Amsterdam. My son, who you just saw, has studied in Amsterdam. He's a lawyer. I rented a place for him 30 years ago. I still have that place, but it was redone two years ago and made into a gallery workshop. In 2019, I was awarded another prize, Gallerist of the Year 2019 by RISD, Rhode Island School of Design.   Sharon: Wow!  Marie: Yeah, maybe you didn't know that.  Sharon: Now it's coming back. Yes, I do remember that. Marie: It was a real surprise. It was very nice. I had to travel to RISD because they set up a show for me in the museum. Then Tracy, the head of the department, said, “I would like you to participate and organize everything in Amsterdam at Intro. I would like for you to run this gallery for three years.” I was the Gallerist of the Year for three years, and we started to do this. The board liked it very much, so for a year we have had two internships there. You can live there; you can work there. It's a beautiful workshop and a beautiful gallery. They make exhibitions with the graduates, but last year there was nothing because they had to return to America. They were not allowed to come here, but probably in August or September there will be two people from RISD again. Not everyone was allowed to participate in Amsterdam at Intro. We selected 20 people per year who could show their work and have exhibitions in Amsterdam. I hoped it would help, but we still have to see because it was interrupted by this horrible Covid disaster. That's my graduate show. There is much more to it.  Sharon: Administering something like that is such a big task. Coming from a traditional background of jewelry and fine art, what attracted you to art jewelry? How did you transition? Marie: The jewelry my brother made was not so far from what you call art jewelry. I'm not such a fan of the term art jewelry, although I don't know what else we should call it. I don't know. Jewelry was not only the thing I did. When the gallery existed for 10 years, I made an exhibition of combs. Sharon: Clothes? Marie: Combs, to comb your hair. Sharon: Combs, O.K. Marie: I did this because I thought a comb is a piece you can use, and I had objects in the gallery you could use. I also sometimes had exhibitions with fine arts, and I had jewelry. I had all three in the small gallery at the time, so I thought a comb has all those elements in it. It's graphic, you can use it as a utensil, and you can wear it as a piece of jewelry. I asked 400 artists in the whole world to make a comb, and I selected 80 pieces for a traveling show. This was really the start of the gallery, because I had a fantastic graphic designer who made a book for it. I had an interior designer who made huge showcases for it. I traveled to museums to ask if they would be interested to have the exhibition after it had been in my gallery. I had the luck that I went to Rotterdam to a famous museum, Boijmans van Beuningen, and they said they would gladly have the exhibition, but they wanted it as a premiere. That was not what I wanted, because I wanted it for my 10thanniversary, and then they said, “No, we want it first.” It was a very good decision to do this, because after that, all the newspapers were full, all the magazines were full, and all the museums wanted to have this exhibition. I have had this exhibition in Tokyo, in Cologne, in Frankfurt, in Pforzheim. My name was there, and then I decided to buy 40 of those pieces. They are now in my collection. My collection is more than 2,000 pieces, I think, and they mirror the history of the gallery. That exhibition was the real start of the gallery. That's when it started to become international. Sharon: For anybody who hasn't been to the current gallery, the building is incredible. It's worth going just to see the building itself. How long have you been in that building? Marie: This is a building channeled with history. There is a history to this building. The town of Nijmegen owns the building, and it used to be a grain warehouse in the beginning of the 20th century. It's around 1900 or even older. They wanted to tear it down to have a hotel here, a Holiday Inn, if you can imagine, but there were some parties in town who wanted culture in this building. I had to fight Holiday Inn. I remember very well, Sharon, that Holiday Inn's director called me and said, “Ms. Van der Hout, why don't you let us buy the building and you can have the ground floor?” Sharon, you know those hotels that have a gallery on the ground, those galleries are mostly horrible. In the end, I won the fight. In 1992, the building was mine; I bought it, but it was ruined. I showed the architect the building, and we had to climb on ladders because the town had decided to tear it down and everything was taken out. The wooden floors were taken out. The only thing left were the beams and those beautiful walls, of course, but that was all. I climbed on that ladder and I fell down and broke my back. Sharon: Oh my gosh! Marie: I lost part of my memory, which is sometimes annoying. On the whole, it's O.K., but I broke my back. I could have been in a wheelchair. When I fell down, I woke up after a half hour or an hour and walked to my art gallery. That seemed a bit strange, so they called a doctor and ambulance and I was taken to the hospital. They said, “You're O.K. You can go because you walked,” and I said, “No, I can't get up anymore.” Then I had this scan and they saw that my back was broken in three places. Sharon: Oh my gosh, you got up and walked! Marie: I was in a cast for a long time. I thought, “Maybe this is too big a task for me. Maybe this was a warning.” Then I thought, “Oh no, I'm going to build an elevator so everyone who is in a wheelchair can see all the floors.” Every day I'm glad I made that decision. Sharon: The building is so fabulous. Did you have a vision for what you wanted? I'm sure you worked closely with the architect, but what was in your mind? Marie: I had a bit in my mind, but my ideas at the time were that it should be wide and so on. I had a fantastic architect, a really fantastic architect, and he didn't want it to be wide; he wanted the walls as they were. We have concrete floors because it was the only possibility. Thanks to this architect—he was a very well-known Dutch architect, by the way, because the town said, “We want this to be a fantastic architectural place. You can invite three architects and we'll pay for that, but the architect you take, you will have to pay him yourself.” They never paid those other architects, by the way, but never mind. I'm so very glad with this architect, and sometimes I see him. Two years ago, he was married for I don't know how many years, and he said, “Marie, I want to go visit the buildings in Holland I'm most proud of”—there are several museums he built—“and you have one of those buildings. If it's O.K. with you, I'd like to have a party here.” He said, “You used it so well. It's so well done now.” I travel a lot—not at the moment, of course—but every time I come home to my building, I feel relieved.  Sharon: It's home.  Marie: It's not only home, it's my first building I remember very well. Once I went on a holiday, and I came back home and I stood in front of my first gallery. I was still in my car in front of the first gallery, and I said to someone, “I don't want to get out. I don't want to do it anymore.” Here, every time I come back, it's rest and peace; it's fantastic. I don't know. Sharon: It is an amazing building  Marie: And inside it's fantastic, of course.  Sharon: You're in a fabulous location. I want to let people know when they go to the gallery, they may need a lot of time because you have a lot of—it's not one small gallery. Marie: No, it's not. I started collecting from the very beginning. I always bought something from my exhibitions, because if people didn't do it, I had to do it. I have a huge collection, but the pieces I have from the beginning are maybe not that interesting. Since then, I have the best pieces. It's fantastic. I have a huge collection of Dorothea Prühl, the necklace I'm wearing now— Sharon: Say the name again. Marie: Dorothea Prühl. Sharon: Dorothea Prühl. It's a fabulous necklace made of wood. Marie: Yeah, there was an exhibition two years ago in New York. Do you know Nancy and Georgio? Sharon: No. Marie: They have the Magazzino, the museum for Italian Art near New York. It's a fantastic, beautiful museum. Anyway, they had an exhibition about arte povera in New York, and there was a famous artist—I can't remember the name; that's my memory—who gave a talk there. The sculptor was there, a famous artist from Italy, and he came to me and said, “You have a fantastic necklace.” It was this necklace. I told Dorothea, of course, because that's a famous sculptor and all her work is like this. There's something else which may be interesting; you know I'm working with schools. Sharon: No, tell us about that. It doesn't surprise me, but tell me about that. Marie: Apart from the private shows. Dorothea Prühl, for instance, she is from Eastern Germany. Sharon: I just want to interrupt, because some people listening have never heard of Dorothea Prühl, who is one of the leading and most well-established art jewelers. Continue, I'm sorry. Marie: She was teaching in Halle in former Eastern Germany. I got to know her work because I went to an exhibition in Halle with her and her class and another teacher. I saw the work and thought, “I would like to have this in the gallery.” The well-known German artist who was there with me said, “There's no way she will do this. She doesn't like Wessies.” Do you know Wessies? People from the west, Western Europe. But I thought, “You know what? I'm going to call her.” So, I called her, and then came this voice. She was a heavy smoker, Sharon, and I said, “I want to make an appointment with you. Is that O.K?” “Oh, yes.”  It was sort of love at first sight.  Sharon: We understand. Marie: Sometimes you have this immediate connection, so I went there. The work she did with her students was fantastic, and then and there I decided I was going to do school exhibitions. I said, “I want you to have an exhibition with your whole class in the gallery for five years. Every spring you will have an exhibition.” They did, and it was always a beautiful exhibition. I bought a lot of pieces for the collection from this exhibition. After those five years, I asked Iris Eichberg. At that time, she was teaching at an academy, and I asked if she would be interested in working with us. She said, “I can't do it. I'm not happy with the level of what's being done here.” Then I decided I would go to the Royal College in London first, with Otto Kunzli in Munich. Otto Kunzli had a show here for five years with his students, also in spring. Then I started to make it a bit shorter, three years with the Royal College with Hans Stauffer. He was the head of the department. At the moment, I'm working with Nuremburg. This is our fourth year. At the end of this month, they will set up an exhibition, also a class exhibition. Do you know that I publish magazines of all the exhibitions? Sharon: Yes. Marie: And we always buy pieces. I really like to work with students. I really like to do this. Sharon: What is it that you like about it? Marie: I don't know, the way that they're open to things. I like that they‘re still developing. By the way, the only school where there were more boys in class was in Munich. In Holland, there was only one boy. In Munich, there were a lot of boys. Most schools just have girls, although in the end, the boys got famous.  Sharon: That's the way it is, yes. Marie: Yes, that's the way it is. Sharon: I was really interested to read that you don't like the term art jewelry. We call it art jewelry because, as you say, there's not another term, but why don't you like the term art jewelry? Marie: Because I think if you're talking about painting, you don't say art paintings or art culture or art design or arts this and that. It's a discipline like all other disciplines. You have paintings, and some are art and some are not. It's the quality that makes it art. It's sometimes not a quality we see now, but it may be that in a hundred years what we now define as art is not what they think of those pieces later on. I don't know. For me it's jewelry, although it's difficult because jewelry is not a well-respected art form. Sharon: Right. Marie: Not at all. Every day I still have to convince people that this is a full-blown art discipline. Sharon: Because you're on the front lines, what do you see as the future of this kind of jewelry? Call it avant garde jewelry, call it art jewelry. It's different than gold and diamonds, in a sense. Marie: It's different. The jewelry that sells best is still gold, unfortunately. Not unfortunately, because I love gold, but there is all gold. A few years ago, I was invited to make an exhibition with Vicenza in Italy. Vicenza is the gold town of Italy. It's where the gold industry is, where they make all those fashion jewelry pieces, and there is a museum. The director asked me, “Will you please make an exhibition for our art jewelry department?” They have design jewelry, fashion jewelry, and art jewelry. The one who made an exhibition before me was Helen Drutt, and she also made an exhibition in the art department. I thought, “Well, O.K., I'm going to make this exhibition, and I'm going to make it only with gold because I'll show them that there is different work you can make with gold.” She told me, “This is my best exhibition ever.” It was a beautiful golden arts jewelry exhibition in their museum. The last year of the exhibition, unfortunately, the last part, was during Covid. What can you do.  Sharon: You don't often see gold in a lot of the art jewelry galleries. Was it difficult to find pieces that you felt belonged in the exhibition? Marie: No. I showed pieces from my collection.  Sharon: Your personal collection? Marie: My personal collection. I have several beautiful golden pieces of Dorothea Prühl. I have several Dutch artists who work in gold. I have enough to show a lot of work. It was 50 pieces, I think. Sharon: O.K., wow!  Marie: I have some from the students from Holland, which reminds me there were two pieces, one big color piece from a student from Holland and one big brooch. Sharon: Do you see an increase in interest with a la carte jewelry and things made of alternative materials, like plastic or wood? Marie: I think this is returning in jewelry. You can make jewelry out of all sorts of materials, and for me, it doesn't really matter. The only thing I don't like so much in jewelry is plastic, because I don't like plastic very much, but for the rest it's fine. What I don't buy anymore is rubber jewelry because it disintegrates. I have rubber pieces in my collection, and they were made of horrible material. I didn't throw them out; I put them in envelopes and kept them, but no. It's difficult to get people interested in jewelry. One of the things I did to get people interested in it, I made a series of exhibitions in museums. It's called “Jewelry, the Choice of, and I followed with the name of the town. I did 10 of those exhibitions in Dutch museums, one in the European parliament in Brussels and another one, my best one, in St. Andrews in Scotland. That exhibition was magic.  What happens normally is that in Holland, the director of the museum selects 25 women and men who they want to come to the gallery. They come by bus for a whole day, and I select pieces from the collection. It's like a Tupperware party, but I want them to get interested in jewelry. Obviously, at St. Andrews that was not possible, that people would come by bus to Scotland. So, the director asked everyone to give her a photo, and she wrote something about the work people did so I could get to know who those people were. I found it very difficult to not see someone and not try something on. So what I did, I had these photos in the gallery for three weeks, and I spread them out on my top floor on this large table. Every day I walked past those photos, looked at the photos, and thought, “Who are you? Who are you?” Then the museum came to collect the pieces I selected for those 24 people. I have to admit I was quite nervous, because what if the people didn't like those pieces and said, “I don't want to wear this,” or “I will wear it, but I don't like it”? But I went there, and we had a meeting in one of the castles. Every quarter of an hour, someone came in and I was supposed to give them the piece of jewelry I selected for them, have them put it on and tell them something about this piece, about the artist. After that, they were interviewed for a movie; there was a movie made for this exhibition. I gave a big gold brooch to the first person who came in, a student from Holland, Christine Matthias, I went to her and said, “I'm giving you the sun,” and she had—how do you say it—goose bumps. Sharon: Goose bumps, yes. Marie: She said, “How do you know?” “How do I know what?” “Yesterday I saw the sun spinning.” O.K., that was number one. The next one was a man, and I gave him a silver brooch of a lizard, a beautifully made small brooch of a lizard, and his wife said, “Last year he wrote a poetry book about lizards.” I was flabbergasted, Sharon, and this went on and on. Not everyone had this reaction, but a lot did. The British people are good talkers, and I told everyone something about the piece of jewelry. Later on, as I said, there was a movie made, and they had to tell something about this piece. They were so well-spoken about it. They looked closely at those pieces. There was an understanding of what the artist had done. It was my best exhibition to promote jewelry with people. I am friends with the director; we eat together every year when there is a Collect in London—except this year, because there is no Collect. Those experiences make my life as a gallerist so beautiful, so exciting.  With this Covid disaster we had to stay home, so we had no visitors and the gallery was closed, and I thought, “You know what? I don't know many people in Nijmegen. I'm focused abroad; I'm focused on faraway places. Who do I know here on my street, for instance?” On the old street of Nijmegen—it's a beautiful street with fantastic houses—I hardly know anyone. I thought, “I'm going to make an exhibition with 25, 30 people, and I will keep it to my street.” So, now I'm making an exhibition called “In My Street.” A few hours ago, we had the first photographs with a photographer who lives on the street of people who have lived the longest on this street, a man and wife who have lived here for 60 years. We're doing that now, and we will probably make 35 photos and have an exhibition here. At this time last year, I invited the former director of the museum of the town who lived on this street. He's a very introverted man, and I went to him and said, “I'd like you to participate in this exhibition,” and he said, “No, no.” In the end, I convinced him he had to do it, and he said, “But only if the exhibition is in your place,” because he likes beauty. Last week I heard that he died. I want the photos to be taken of people in their own houses. He had this fantastic office in the front of his home, full of books and a huge desk, that was beautiful to photograph in, but he's not there anymore, so it's just— Sharon:Yeah, it's a shame.  Marie: Yeah, it's a shame, but I think it will be a beautiful exhibition, very near home. My idea now is this “In My Street.” I want other streets to make the same exhibition and come to the gallery. Everyone can see “In My Street” and have 25 people. We have a whole grid around town with everyone. Now I'm home on my own street. The first time I went to visit people, someone said to me, “Of course you don't know anyone. You never come out of your gallery.” It's not true, but I live on top of my gallery, so I go by elevator, get out on my terrace and go in my house.  Sharon: You put the pandemic to good use with this. Marie: Yes. Sharon: Marie, I could talk to you forever. Thank you so much. This is great, because it's so hard when you're at a show to talk to anyone for more than three seconds. It's great to hear your whole story, and thank you for sharing it with us. Marie: Thank you, Sharon. There's much more.  We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

What you'll learn in this episode: How Barbara discovered she could combine gold leaf and enamel for jewelry that withstands daily wear What types of custom work has proven popular for Évocateur Why it was important for Évocateur jewelry to be made in the U.S. and sold at an affordable price point How Barbara moved from corporate finance to jewelry, even with no formal schooling or industry connections About Barbara Ross-Innamorati For ÉVOCATEUR Founder and Designer Barbara Ross-Innamorati, the love of fashion, art and design has always been hardwired into her creative DNA. Many years ago, Barbara became fascinated with and passionate about gold leaf, particularly the way it can transform even the most ordinary objects into something extraordinary and magical. As someone who always loved jewelry, Barbara went on a mission to adapt 22K gold leaf to jewelry design. After years of research and trial and error, she perfected the proprietary technique for which ÉVOCATEUR is now known. Today, these opulent designs are infused with inspiration from Barbara's extensive travels throughout the U.S., Europe, Africa and Asia. All of the designs have a sophisticated and unique spirit. From their Connecticut studio, Barbara and a team of skilled artisans design and individually craft each piece, wrapping them in 22K gold leaf and sterling silver leaf. Using an intricate process, the jewelry is gilded and burnished by hand and is fabricated over a period of five days, resulting in an exquisite work of art, each piece finished to a rich patina. With only the finest materials used and impeccable attention to detail, ÉVOCATEUR celebrates the compelling relationship between art and fashion. The line, which includes cuffs, bangles, pendants, and earrings, can be found in premier jewelry retail stores throughout the United States and the rest of the world. Additional Links Évocateur Instagram Évocateur Website Photo: Transcript: For most of her life, Barbara Ross-Innamorati didn't think jewelry would ever be more than a hobby to her. Little did she know that she would later invent an entirely new category of jewelry. Her company, Évocateur, specializes in gilded jewelry covered in gold and silver leaf and artistic motifs. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she developed her innovative technique, where she hopes her company will go next, and why she wants everyone to know that it's possible to start a second chapter in life. Read the episode transcript below.    Sharon: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Barbara Ross-Innamorati, designer and founder of the jewelry company Évocateur. Her jewelry features 22-carat gold leaf and sterling silver leaf. Her line is sold around the world, and we'll hear about her jewelry journey today. Barbara, welcome to the podcast. Barbara: Thank you, it's very good to be here. Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. It sounds like you invented—it's not the right word, but we'll talk more about it. Barbara: No, that is close to the right word, Sharon. We're an 11 ½-year-old company. We were established in 2009, but my jewelry journey probably began decades ago. I trace it back to when I was a student in London. I went to an art exhibit, and it was a retrospective of Gustave Klimt, the famous expressionist artist. I saw the painting “The Kiss” there, and even being 20-something, I was struck by something I saw in the painting, and that was gold leaf. I didn't know what gold leaf was; I was just mesmerized by it and it stuck with me. I went on to finish college and got married, started work and had kids, and then I'd say about 12 or 13 years ago, the gold leaf came back to me, because I'd always loved jewelry. I had a wonderful collection of my own jewelry, and I got it in my mind, thinking, “Why can't we make jewelry that features gold leaf?” We have less expensive plated fashion jewelry, and then you have fine jewelry. There's got to be something in between, and there's got to be something we can use gold leaf on. Gold leaf is different than plating; it's actual sheets of gold. So, I went on in this fashion, to try and adapt 18-carat or 22-carat gold leaf to jewelry. It was a long process. I had no background in jewelry. I had never taken a jewelry class, not even an art class, although I loved art and I had a vision of what I wanted this to look like. 18 months later, through trial and error, I finally had a product, and I have to trace it back to that day at the National Gallery in London when I saw that painting.  We have, in the process, continued to evolve over the last 11 ½ years. It was something we couldn't read in a book; I couldn't read in a book. No one was doing it the way I was doing it, or at least getting the look I wanted. People had used gold leaf as accents on beads, but no one was wrapping it the way we had come up with through this process. I say “we” because over the years, even though I invented this process, my incredible team—and we're 100 percent woman owned and operated—has continued to progress and evolve and innovate to make this a much better process and product in the meantime. Even our signature flecking, which is little bits of gold, that was kind of an accident. The first time I was trying to get gold leaf on a cuff base, the little pieces of gold—gold leaf is as thin as a butterfly's wing—would break off and end up all over the image. That was an accident, but I looked at it and said, “That gives it a unique vintage, one-a-kind look.”  It's been a very interesting journey. We have brought together two materials that heretofore haven't been brought together, and that's gold leaf and enamel. In fact, when we have a product issue—and we've had many over the years, because we are blazing a trail in this process and product—I couldn't talk to my gold leaf guy in Florence, Italy, and I couldn't talk to my enamel guy in Rhode Island, because their materials had never been married together, so to speak. We had to solve things here, not in the tools that we use, but the entire process. So, that's how it began. I'm proud to say we've created this entire newly category of gilded jewelry, and it's been a long process. Sharon: It's an amazing story. Do you have metalsmithing or chemistry experience? Did you have any kind of background? Barbara: I have an MBA in corporate finance. I was an investment banker and corporate finance person before I did this, so no. I hope that's inspirational to people who think they can't do something. You just keep at it. I wasn't intimidated by not being from the industry. Sharon: Is that just your personality? It's intimidating. So many people grew up in jewelry families or they were chemists or something. Is that just you, you're not intimidated? Barbara: I think it was passion; I can't even tell you. I remember being up until 2, 3, 4 in the morning experimenting. The hardest part of this was not just getting the very thin gold leaf or silver leaf on a base, but how to seal it, because gold leaf heretofore has been used in the decorative arts. You see it on domes or churches. In New York, we have several buildings that have gold domes as well as gold statues. Those statues are covered with gold leaf, and when you put it on an object or even furniture, it's not sitting against someone's skin. It's gold; you don't have to seal it. Silver leaf, you have to seal because it will tarnish, so I had to find the right sealant that would protect it but not destroy it. It's sitting against a woman's wrist or her neck where there might be oils and sweat, and I had to find a way to protect that. I was passionate about gold leaf and loved art, and now we have a product that combines original art and gold leaf that's all made in the U.S. It's all made right here in Connecticut. Sharon: Wow! That's very unusual. Did you find people who knew how to seal it? Barbara: No, I tried many different materials, and I would wear it and stress test it. I remember finally the third material, which is a type of enamel, was the one that worked. It was hard because not only was I unschooled in this, but there was no school where I could learn this.  Sharon: You do the design of the jewelry. You're the designer, right? Barbara: Yes, we design everything here. We work with graphic artists and we have different types of designs. We also work with contemporary artists to put their artwork on our jewelry. You can go to our website and see Monet's Water Lilies or Van Gogh's Starry Night. These are all in the public domain, so we can use them without paying any type of royalty or rights. However, we also work with contemporary artists. We take their artwork and pay them a royalty to use their art on our jewelry. We also work with Erté, who was a famous—he did many things: costume designer, sculptor, artist. We work with a company that owns all of his artwork, and we have an entire line devoted to his art.  Sharon: Yes, that was surprising. I always think of the female statue—I don't know if it's in crystal, but that's what I think of when I think of him. He was a him, right? Barbara: Yeah, his actual name was Romain de Tirtoff. He was Russian-born, but when you said his initials, which are R and T, in French, it's pronounced Erté. Sharon: In today's world that's also unusual. You're looking at antiques like that, but not contemporary so much. They're beautiful. Tell us how you describe your jewelry to people when they ask what you do. What do you say to them? Barbara: We're obviously very art-driven jewelry, but I think we're colorful, whimsical, attainable. Everything retails for under $400. These are handmade pieces that take six to seven days to process. It is made, as in mentioned, in Norwalk, Connecticut, and it features 22-carat gold leaf. It's very artistic, but it's also travel jewelry in a way. That's another thing I point out; you get a lot of bang for the buck. It's bold, although we do have different widths. We go down to as narrow as a ¾-inch cuff. Earring silhouettes go from the smallest studs to the largest 2-inch tear drops. The same thing with our necklaces, but we do have that bold, gold look Sharon: It's beautiful. I happen to love cuff bracelets. You have some fabulous cuff bracelets. Barbara: Thank you. It's fun jewelry; whimsical, art-driven and unique. The other thing is that each piece is like a snowflake because it's handmade. The gilding will go on differently each time, especially the flecking, the little bits of gold or silver, so that each piece is really, truly like a snowflake. We can't replicate it. The image can be replicated, but the application of the gold leaf can't.  Sharon: That's amazing. Did you target that specific price point? Barbara: We launched our business in the middle of a recession, the 2008-2009 recession, and there was a lot of price resistance and price sensitivity. I tried hard to keep it under a certain price. There is a target, I guess. That's correct, that we try to be conscious of the price level. Sharon: It sounds like you had to go through so many iterations to develop the prototypes and find the one where you said, “O.K., we're ready to go.” How did you feel? Did you know when you saw it?  Barbara: Yeah, everything has to speak to me. I have to feel it.  Sharon: How did you feel then? Did you know when you saw it? Like, “I've done 400 prototypes, but this is it”? Barbara: The biggest challenge for me was finding the right enamel. It's what is called a cold enamel. It has to air cure. We can't fire it because of the gold leaf. When I got up the next morning and felt it and touched it after it had cured, I felt like, “Yeah, this is it.” Then, of course, I had to wear it. I would wear it for three or four weeks every day to stress test it because, as I said, we blazed a new trail here. There was no way for us to know if this was going to work. Sharon: I'm amazed that you've been so successful with it. It's so far afield from what you did before and what your education was in. l understand that you didn't study as an artist. You didn't study as a chemist or a metalsmith. Barbara: I had to learn a lot about chemistry while working with the enamels. We had problems, all kinds of issues that would—like if your studio is too humid, we've had issues with that. If the enamel doesn't cure correctly, then we have to file it off and start again. It's a laborious process. We've tried to short circuit it over the years, but the look is not the same.  Sharon: No, it sounds like a laborious process. Barbara: But it's very rewarding. Being relatively new to this industry, obviously there are a lot of challenges, but there's so much joy that we can be part of something happy and positive for the most part. I hear from customers and from our retailers what their customers are saying, especially when we do a custom cuff. I'm sure most jewelers and designers know what I'm talking about when you feel that “wow.” You made a difference. You're part of an important milestone. Maybe you're just part of someone's everyday life, but they get so much joy out of wearing something. That's something I never take for granted, because I never had a job like that, frankly, never. This is the first time. Sharon: What kind of custom work are people asking you for? To mark an anniversary or a trip? Barbara: We do so many different types of custom. This is probably our largest-growing segment right now. We can take any digital image—of course, we have to make sure it looks good—but we can take any digital image that any customer has and create a piece of jewelry from it that's embedded into the gold leaf or silver leaf. We do a lot of dogs. We do a lot of horses. Kids are a distant third behind pets. We've done cats. We've done a lot of map cups, mostly for our retailers. We'll find beautiful maps and we'll put it on a cup or a necklace, and then it becomes our retailer's signature piece. We've done Charlotte, North Carolina, Charleston—you name the city, we have a map cup or earring or necklace to go with it.  We've done those types of customs, but then we've done very personal pieces for the retail customer as opposed to the retailer. It really is all over the place. We actually put somebody's car on one. She had a Ferrari, and she wanted a picture of her in her Ferrari on a cuff, so she sent this photo. She loved that. For a mother's day gift, one was a picture of somebody's childhood home. That was through one of our retailers. It was given to her mother. It was their home, and apparently the mother just wept when she got this cup. It's fun. It's very personal. If you can digitize it, we can generally create a beautiful piece of jewelry from it. Sharon: Wow! It's endless what you can do in terms of custom work. It's not surprising to me that pets are first. The first thing that flew into my mind was maybe a family picture, but when I think about things that make me smile—it sounds horrible—it's my dogs. Barbara: We've done a lot of dogs that have passed. When they pass, the owner really wants to commemorate them on a necklace or a cuff. There's always a story. That's the other thing; with all kinds of jewelry, there's always a story, and that's what I love. I like to think our jewelry has a strong narrative. In fact our name, “Évocateur,” means evocative. That's because when I started wearing my jewelry, when it was still just a hobby and I was trying to figure things out, people would ask me questions. They'd say, “That's really unique,” or “Why is there a butterfly on that cuff?” It would evoke conversations and connections, and for me it would evoke nice memories of a trip, for example. That's what I mean. Sharon: The Kiss is at the Neue Galerie right now, isn't it? Do you go visit that because it's so much closer than London right now? Barbara: Yeah, I've been to Neue Galerie on the Upper East Side of New York. It's a beautiful museum. Sharon: Oh, it's great. Barbara: Very inspirational. We also have the Portrait of Adele Bloch-Bauer, which is another famous painting of his. We put that on a cuff as well. Sharon: Beautiful! The price point is approachable, not off-putting, and you can customize so many things. What's one thing we haven't talked about? What's one thing I haven't covered that you think people should know? Barbara: This is definitely a second chapter for me. As I mentioned, my background was very different. Had I not lost my job—I had a really nice job and was downsized—this would have never happened. I think it's important for people to realize that sometimes great things come in not-so-nice packages. There's always a second chapter, no matter where you are or how old you are. Things can happen that may not look so great at the time, as I said, but I can guarantee you—because I had a great job, and there was no reason for me to leave that job—I can guarantee you that if my hand hadn't been forced and I hadn't started playing around with my hobby, that Évocateur would have never happened. I'd still be in that job, or maybe another job that's similar. That is an important message for anyone who finds himself in a less than desirable position or in something they didn't plan.  The other thing that's interesting is that the event that launched us was the lineup at Open See at Henri Bendel. Unfortunately Henri Bendel no longer exists in New York, but this was a semiannual audition, if you will, where any designer could line up, preferably between 5 and 6 a.m. if you wanted to be seen. The lines were long. Anyone could line up in certain categories, and the buyers at Henri Bendel would see them. It was called the Open See; it was very famous, and I decided I was going to go and present our collections. It was successful for us because they accepted us in, and that's really how we were launched. It gave me the commercial validation that I needed to turn this from a hobby into something more. That's the other interesting Évocateur historical info. Sharon: That's quite a launch. It's inspirational. I can see so many people saying, “Oh, they wouldn't be interested,” or they're not willing to be rejected. Barbara: Whenever you're an entrepreneur, you've got to realize that you're going to get rejections. It's par for the course, and you need a lot of internal fortitude. So much of what I've done is hard. There's no question. It's hard owning a business and creating something from nothing, which is what we did. Even when you start a business—maybe you have a product that does exist, but you still have to start it. Anytime you start something from nothing, you don't inherit it; you don't buy into it; but you're starting with zero, you're going to have rejection. You need a lot of passion for what you're doing and a lot of, like I said, internal fortitude to keep going. It's not easy, but it is rewarding. There are lots of highs, lots of lows. Sharon: It sounds very rewarding. It's the risk of living, but it sounds very rewarding. Thank you so much. It was a very inspirational story. I wish you continued success and growth, and it sounds like you'll have it in the future. It's coming; how can it not? Barbara: It's been an interesting ride. My biggest achievement to date, I think, is that we survived 2020. I'm serious. Sharon: I'm laughing, but I know— Barbara: My team is still here and we're still working away. Trade shows are coming back, and I'm optimistic for this year and the following year. Sharon: The fact that you're still here is quite an accomplishment. Thank you so much, Barbara, for talking with us today, and much luck as you move forward. Barbara: Thank you so much, Sharon. It's been a pleasure. We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why jewelry carries meaning beyond just its material value Where jewelry and adornment fits into visual culture How Lisa developed Initiatives in Art and Culture's series of conferences, and how she has adapted them during Covid When the next IAC Gold Conference is and what speakers to expect About Lisa Koenigsberg Lisa Koenigsberg is the Founder and Conference Director of Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC) which aims to educate diverse audiences in the fine, decorative and visual arts. Lisa has organized conferences, symposia and special sessions at universities, museums and professional organizations throughout the U.S. and abroad which explore fashion, materials and process. Her writings have appeared in books, journals, magazines and in Trendvision's Trendbook 2018. Lisa previously served as Advisor to the Dean for Arts Initiatives; Director, Programs in the Arts; and adjunct professor of arts, NYU School of Continuing and Professional Studies. Additional positions include: Assistant Director for Project Funding, Museum of the City of New York; Executive Assistant, Office of the President, American Museum of Natural History; architectural historian, New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission; and guest curator, Worcester Art Museum and Yale University Art Gallery. She holds graduate degrees from The Johns Hopkins University, and from Yale University where she received her Ph.D. Additional resources: Initiatives in Art and Culture Instagram Initiatives in Art and Culture Facebook Initiatives in Art and Culture Linkedin Initiatives in Art and Culture Linktr.ee Lisa Koenigsberg Linkedin Photos: Transcript: Throughout history, people have always had an instinct to adorn themselves. Although the materials and trends change, the desire to make things beautiful is deeply human. Lisa Koenigsberg, President of Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC), joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about this phenomenon, as well as IAC's series of conferences covering a variety of jewelry topics. Read the episode transcript below.  Sharon: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Lisa Koenigsberg, President of Initiatives in Art and Culture, an organization which is committed to educating diverse audiences in the fine, decorative and visual arts, with particular emphasis on jewelry. The organization offers some intriguing conferences and live stream events. We'll hear all about those today as well as Lisa's own jewelry journey. Lisa, welcome to the program. Lisa: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey. I know you covered a lot of ground prior to founding the organization. Lisa: It's actually a more complicated question than that, because our journeys—the personal and the professional are always intertwined. I'll start with one memory from my childhood, which is of my mother getting dressed for special evenings. She had an outfit that was red and shoes that were printed with a raspberry print—perhaps it was floral and I remember it as that—and she had earrings that were two rounds of small rubies with little diamond flowers and a ring that matched. That association is very profound, one of beauty with my mother, one of the meaningfulness of adornment, the specialness that it denotes. Special can mean many things, of course. I happen to be an extremely visual person. I was born into a world, if you will, a culture, and I have always looked at materiality from across a disciplinary perspective. How does the mother's jewelry indicate that? On the one hand, you have the emotion that resonates, the association, which is a powerful way that humans think. When they see something they associate with X, and if you do it often enough, then you have an accepted, codified language. If we always see, for example, a steeple and then think “church,” then we've created a convention of meaning. The other thing is that her jewels were beautiful objects made of materials, meaning what? You'd have stone; you'd have metal; you'd have artisanry that shapes material, crafts material—another loaded word—into something that is then worn. I think one of the great challenges about jewelry is that adorning ourselves and crafting objects to which we give significant value—and by that I don't mean monetary value, but we imbue it with spiritual value, we load it with emotional association and the resonance of love, of friendship, the power of faith, for example, a cross, or a more singular object would be the Pope's ring. This is an innate instinct in us to want to adorn and to create adornment.  I'm steering away from the word “jewelry” in this context, simply because any word, as we're discovering these days—we had the War of the Roses, and now we have the War of the Words. What exactly do words mean? Wearing and creating what we could call jewelry is so innately human, and yet we burden it with the weight or the negotiation of associations that can come with the word “luxury.” Luxury, to many people, implies something that is superfluous; it is frivolity. One of the ways people are trying to resolve that dichotomy is in contemplating how the materials that go into the adornment are sourced, how the adornment is made, which gets at “good, better, best” and this idea of fewer, better things, which is not anti-materialist; it is actually an affirmation of the importance of materiality and the importance of being selective, purposeful, considerate and deliberate about choice. But it's a heavy burden that jewelry bears. Sharon: That's true, and in Initiatives in Art and Culture you've explored this. Tell us about the organization, your webinars, the conferences you're doing. Tell us more so we know when we get something in our email about an upcoming event. I know you've explored a lot of this. Lisa: The organization launches and then stewards projects, very often conferences, symposia or series. Now we're looking at publications that focus on—I'm going to borrow my term back “visual culture,” and by that we mean what you see. From the earliest point in my life which is preschool, pre-everything, I have seen the visual as a language. You have the language of form; you have the language with which you execute form: Is it classic? Is it baroque? Is it spirit? Is it colorful? You have the materials out of which it's made. What value do we ascribe to those materials? Is one better than the other? Does material value influence our concept of whether something is better or not?  With this general swirl, what does a picture of Andrew Jackson astride a horse tell you? It references a whole tradition of visual culture. It reinforces the mythology of Jackson, which you may wish to unveil to see some ugly subtext. It is about communicating effectively to a culture with imagery that conveys extant but perhaps not articulated messages that need to be articulated. If you think about religious art, much religious art is not only glorious, but it also serves as a visual manifestation of something so we think, “Oh, that's a textual narrative.” Before the universality of text, we had images, and how those images are created impacts us as much as the words with which a statement is crafted.  Then there are many dimensions to value of material. So, it's made of aventurine and it's blue, and therefore it's one of the most costly colors. Is that the product of a society that relies upon it for its subsistence? Then there's what we might call social sustainability as a dimension. All of these things are, from my perspective, summarized in visual culture. So, our purpose is to explore from every angle—and we welcome new thoughts as to what those angles might consist of—but to explore from every angle possible that which you see. Jewelry is of central importance in that canon of objects.  Sharon: In a different lifetime when we could travel, I attended one of your conferences, the Gold Conference. You have an upcoming virtual conference. Tell us about that. It really sounds interesting, and it focuses on jewelry and some of the issues you've been talking about, sustainability.  Lisa: With pleasure. We have two conferences that have focused on jewelry that are fairly long-running. One of them tends to look at fashion, cultural zeitgeist, materials, and it often uses color as a lens. It was the 10th anniversary of that conference, which was called Green. It was in 2008 that we made an effort to rework our significant commitment to that and transitioned into exploring jewelry and materials related to jewelry. In the process of working on that conference, we met many people with whom we still have wonderful relationships today, ranging from Toby Pomeroy, who was a pioneer in what was then called ecoluxury and who has such an important mercury-free mining initiative underway, to Benjamin Zucker, who is a gem merchant but also an extraordinary novelist and collector. He came and spoke about green diamonds because we wanted, one might say, a polymorphously perverse approach to green and gold and how it is mined. That was a focus of that conference, and that was the beginning of a leg of a journey. We did a Coral Conference; we did a Diamond Conference. I woke up one day and said, “Oh golly, we've never done gold,” but the nuggets were there, if you will. It's a corny metaphor, but that was the beginning of what you referred to, a decade as the “Gold Conference,” which has explored the emotional power and resonance of artistic potential residing in gold, associated values attributed to gold and how it is yielded from the earth. As the cultural conversation has become more complex and look into more angles, so has ours with a pronounced emphasis on craft or artisanry as well as on our responsibility to the planet and to one another. It's something we would call responsible practice. At the same time, I've been very interested in pushing the boundaries so that we do more comparison, for example, of gold and diamonds and established categories or vehicles of value and the different ways they are produced, to use the industry terminology, or mined. What are the society implications; what are the different ways we consider value; what's the relationship between, say, stone and metal in creating something of beauty? We were very fortunate to partner with Ronnie Vanderlinden and a number of groups he's associated with and do something called Day of Light. Sharon: Who's this person? I don't him; I'm sorry. Lisa: Ronnie is very prominent in the diamond world. He's an extraordinary human being of great kindness and immense connectedness throughout that world. When I say “that world,” I mean the world of diamonds in particular, which is a very complicated and interesting universe. We were asked to partner with him and a group of colleagues to produce a day called Day of Light. Out of that day—which looked largely at diamonds, everything from their significance, to the range of colors in which they come, to the moral ramifications of extraction, all of that—out of that, came the idea of pushing the borders of the Gold Conference so the Day of Light shone brightly on the Gold Conference. So, we married the two, or one has expanded to include the other, which is something I've been quite interested in. Of course, that doesn't preclude our looking at colored stones at all, but that, in effect, is the upcoming virtual conference. So, it's our 11th year of what is now the Gold and Diamond Conference. We are doing it virtually July 13-15. The reason for doing this virtually is, one, I had an extraordinary epiphany. The first time we did a webinar and understood the impact we have or did have, we were really honored because we had 44 countries listening in. That was enormously exciting to me, and I guess unfortunately meant more work, because I was so excited that I said, “All right, we're going to do this even if this is whatever the world looks like.” The conference is in person because there's a criticality to being in person that you cannot replicate. On the other hand, the virtual and web context provides other things that also are irreplicable and important, so together they are more than the sum of their parts. Sharon: What are the dates of the conference? Lisa: The conference is going to happen July 13-15, which is a Tuesday through Thursday, approximately 10:30-2:00. Sharon: Is that Eastern Time, 10:30-2:00? Lisa: Yes, ET. The reason for that is that we try to be mindful of as many time zones as we can be; West Coast, U.K., Europe, etc. and that seems to be a good slice. Those are not precise hours. We are working to have an elegantly crafted program, because the way people experience time virtually is different than they do when you come together for something in person. That's something we've been quite aware of. Sharon: First, I want to make sure everybody listening knows we'll have a link to your website and that they can get more information about the conference if they want to sign up for it. I also want to emphasize, just from my own experience, that you're talking about deep, profound issues, but at the same time you had makers; you had designers. I'm not in mining or manufacturing, but I want to make sure everybody understands that you had guests that were of interest to a lot of people. Lisa: We have a tremendous cross-section of people participating in the program, from makers to curators to collectors to yes, manufacturers, which is a bit of a separate realm, to people who cut stones, to people who write about value in the world. You pick up the newspaper and there's a column, “Should I Buy Gold Today?” That's actually related to what's on your finger, and the people who come to our conferences mirror that diversity. We have collectors. We have people who love jewelry and are interested in it for a range of reasons, and it is not what they do for a living or their day job. Then we have a range of people who do come from different aspects of it. You can have somebody who works in mining sitting next to somebody who has the breath of god in their hands. That actually brings up something interesting, which is the hand aspect. The open door to everyone is something that has been fundamental to me forever, and I have to say I'm very indebted to my father for this. My father was deeply, deeply interested in American art all his life. I was immersed in that world; I still am. My father approached that world as the amateur. He read everything. He looked at everything, but this is not what he did for his day job. This was a passion to which he was deeply committed. That enthusiasm and joy in the field of endeavor was something that was transmitted. That spark, that is the most interesting thing to feel that and to bring whatever question, whatever interest, whatever approach you have.  Something that's important that needs to be talked about more is how we wear jewels. We tend to think, “Oh, we're going to put the broach on the shoulder. That's where it goes.” Well, that's the idea of a coat pin, but in fact the brooch unbelievable. It is positioned in many ways, has many functions. It becomes quite related to fashion, and by fashion I don't mean “It's got to be pink or navy blue,” but literally, “Well, if I'm going to wear it at my waist, can the structure of my outfit, whether it's pants or a skirt or a dress, accommodate that positioning?” What does positioning mean? We know innately that we respond to these things, because all you have to do is scroll your media feed and say, “Oh my goodness, somebody has an engagement ring and it's a portrait cut. Somebody else has worn it. It's a pearl. Somebody else set a magnificent stone and created a highly original ring.” We see these things. We may not be drilling down into the particulars in the footnotes, but we're all susceptible to the buzz, the power, the cultural associations of needing to do better. There's the example of the impact of “blood diamond” and what the industry has done and the efforts that inspired them to do better, to be better. Frankly, some of the people who consider this on the most important level, they're the consumer. Jewelry is a powerful vehicle that touches us all. Take a look at your left hand or your right hand. Are you wearing something? It probably says something to you, and that's what we're here to explore and talk about.  Sharon: You've had series of—I call them webinars, but they're live streams with a variety of people participating from all over the world with live discussions. Lisa: Yes, our Child of Covid. This was sparked by one of our partners. We were going to have our 10thanniversary conference in April of 2020, and fortuitously it was going to be on Earth Day. Then circumstances prompted us to push it back to October, and we were asked, as was everyone, “What are you doing to meet the circumstances that exist now? What are you putting in front of people? How are you engaging them, how are the issues and the beauties and all the rest of it being brought to bear?” I had no experience in the realm, but I said, “O.K., we'll do three webinars, one a month, between now and when the conference is meant to happen.” I say meant to happen because we ended up doing a virtual manifestation, but it was that experience, the first episode or webinar that we put forward, and the breadth of audience and the responsiveness of audience that moved me to say, “We're going to continue doing the conferences, absolutely; they're critical and irreplaceable, and at the same time this is something important, too.”  One of the things we strive for is unscripted, guest-prepared lectures, and always with people who are speaking from a perspective of accomplishment, whether they're an amazing jeweler or somebody who represents a particular part of the government or a particular part of the industry, whether it's retail or women's issues. People who bring, from their own informed vantage point, a readiness to talk with each other about questions and shared interests, even if perhaps they come from different avenues. We've been excited to welcome people as participants from all over the world, as you suggested, and we also receive questions, comments and responses in real time from people who are all over the world wanting to have answers or make comments about what's going on. That's our Child of Covid, but we will find another name because it is here to stay, I hope.  I like to turn that on its ear and say it's something that prompts in me a thought about this interlude or period of time that has been Covid. Interlude maybe suggest something a bit too pleasantly musical. Along with the devastation and the very traumatic impacts, loss of life and transformed social structure, have also come some very positive outcomes, even if the way one defines that outcome is a period of reflection to think about how we can do something better, how we can have better lives, how we can be more reflective or conscious or kind. What is the meaning of what we do? Do we want to be a bit deeper with less of the frequency that seems to have characterized culture prior to the pandemic?  Sharon: I understand why you've had so many conferences, virtual or in person, because these are deep issues. You bring in people from across the board, people who are working hands-on, bench jewelers, designers, people who are familiar with mining and manufacturing. We could talk about that more, but what was interesting to me in your last webinar was a lot of people saying, “We're not there yet. We have been working on environmental consciousness and how and where things are mined.”  I want to make sure everybody knows that your next conference is July 13-15, and it's Gold and Diamond. For me, being on the West Coast, I'm thrilled when these things are virtual, even though I've been fortunate enough to go to New York to attend some in person. To sit on my living room couch and listen to these is great. Lisa, thank you so much for being here today. Lisa: May I leave you with a parting thought? Sharon: Absolutely. Lisa: O.K., I'm going to take this off. On my right hand, I wear two rings. One of them was given to me by mother on my first Mother's Day as a mother. Imagine that I'm holding up this ring, which is beautiful; it is Greek in expression, timeless looking, very, very warm gold. Those are the attributes visually. Then there are all the associations the ring has, because my mother wore it for years and years, and I was actually present when my father gave it to her. So, that ring is on my hand. Clearly that ring is important to me. In a way, the jewelry journey starts with each of us. The fact that jewelry is meaningful in whatever way it is actually prompts a quest for the materials. That opens up the world of questions about practice and sourcing, for example. Then, as it's transformed, you have other questions regarding taste, etc. But it all begins with us and our deep-seated connection to jewelry. I think the personal connection there is something that we celebrate, and hopefully it is a universal touch point for all of us as we go forward to talk about it in whatever ways we will.  Sharon: There's so much to talk about. We can talk for hours about some of these subjects, and I'd love to do that. Hopefully we'll have you back again and we'll continue the conversation, but thank you so much for being here today. Lisa: It's absolutely a pleasure. I'd love to come back anytime. Sharon: O.K., thank you. We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.    

What you'll learn in this episode: How lawyers, law firms and managing partners respond when they hear Firm Focus can help them develop a firm focus. How you can overcome disorganization and develop systems that can keep you focused. The top three stumbling blocks for lawyers that impede business development. About Sarah Tetlow: Sarah Tetlow is an experienced productivity consultant, trainer and speaker for attorneys and other legal professionals. She uses her past experiences, organizational and strategic thought process, education and training to help law firms increase their bottom line and operate more efficiently. Through one-on-one consulting, strategic planning, workshops and group trainings, Sarah works with attorneys and law firms to find personalized ways to manage one's day with a proactive and focused approach.  Sarah has experienced first-hand the stress that attorneys endure in trying to manage multiple projects. Sarah's mission, and the reason for starting Firm Focus, is the desire to see a change in the industry and to help attorneys experience control over their day.​ Additional resources: Firm Focus Website Sarah's LinkedIn Firm Focus Facebook Firm Focus LinkedIn Transcript: Episode 91: Finding the Focus to Increase the Bottom Line with Sarah Tetlow, Founder & CEO of Firm Focus   Sharon: Welcome to the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst podcast. Today, we're talking with Sarah Tetlow, Founder & CEO of Firm Focus which works with law firms to increase productivity with the ultimate goal of increasing firm revenue. She has worn many hats within the law firm environment, so she knows the ins and outs of how they work and where they encounter stumbling blocks when it comes to productivity. Today we'll hear all about her journey, her perspective on law firm productivity and how it can be enhanced. Sarah, welcome to the program.    Sarah: Thank you so much, Sharon, it's wonderful to be here.   Sharon: So glad to be talking with you. When I was reading stumbling blocks on law firm productivity, I thought, “Oh my gosh, there are a lot of them. So, tell us about your career path and how you started working with lawyers.   Sarah: Yeah, I went to UC Santa Barbara and studied law and society and always thought that I wanted to be a lawyer. My whole life, I wanted to be a lawyer and long story short, I ended up going a different path, but always within the legal industry and I was a litigation paralegal for many years in my career and then I moved into a marketing and business development manager role and, ultimately, during that time in my career, I started to really explore what I was passionate about and where there was a need in the industry which landed on creating Firm Focus and now I'm truly happy that my career took this path because I love helping lawyers work more productively, be more organized and basically fall in love with their career again.   Sharon: Was it helping lawyers that made you passionate or was it  that you could enhance their ability to work more efficiently? What did you become passionate about?   Sarah: When I was a litigation paralegal and kind of the day to day and preparing the lawyers for trial or even depositions or hearings and helping manage a lot of the big, voluminous projects, it was always something that I really just enjoyed doing. I remained calm in the storm. I always had a really good sense of time and project size and the resources that we needed to use to be able to meet deadlines and effectuate the projects without burning out and it was just something I was good at, but also I really enjoyed that part of my career and helping manage the lawyers, helping manage the cases. So when I started to explore—when I was a business development manager and I was spending a lot of commuting time thinking about what was I loving about being a marketing and BD manager, what was missing about not being a litigation paralegal anymore, where are my skills, what am I good at and where can I fill a gap in the industry by marrying all of those skills and my passion to help the industry. So, it came from both. It came from just sort of my own selfish view of myself and what fulfilled me, but then matching that to what the industry could benefit from and gain value from and so that's what landed me on their productivity experts, their business development coaches and I'm now bringing to the industry a productivity expert for the legal industry.   Sharon: So, tell us what made you decide to go out on your own, start your firm, and tell us a little bit about Firm Focus.   Sarah: That was scary of course. I had a career; I had a job; I had two babies; I was secure and comfortable, but I started on the side. I started doing some home organizing. So, on weekends or at night, I would go and do home organizing, just something that I found out twas a career and it's something I do even in my own house to reduce stress, and I enjoy it. Yes, I'm crazy; I like organizing; it's something that I love to do and so I would do it on the side on top of my career at a law firm in San Francisco and then I started to get the idea of, “Wow, I can make a business out of this.” But whenever I would kind of look at longevity in that industry, I just didn't see it. I didn't see my body doing this for the next 35 years or however long—not even 35 years. I'm a little too old to work for 35 more years, but I didn't see myself doing it long-term and so it took about a year to evolve to the right idea, but I came to the idea of marrying again the idea of organizing, but also the skills I had in the law office and came up with Firm Focus and then the name came up because I landed on the concept; I landed on the idea; I started to strategize about what that business would be like and then of course I wrote down lawyers, law firms, productivity and came up with Firm Focus which I'm actually very proud of the name because I think it has a double meaning on both ends and I stand by what I do with my clients in really helping them develop a firm focus in their business and in their day to day.   Sharon: What's the response when you tell lawyers or law firms or management partners that you can help them develop a firm focus? Do they always say, “I have that” or what? What's their response?   Sarah: Almost 100% of the time, I get a laugh and says, “You're saying lawyers need that?” Usually there's some curiosity behind that as well because many lawyers—there are some lawyers that have their workday designed perfectly. They have systems in place. They have boundaries established. They are able to stay focused, mitigate distractions and interruptions, have effective communication skills within their law firm and this is not really an issue for them, but there are others, many others whereby the very nature of how the industry has manifest, productivity skills and organizational skills are essential and it's not that lawyers are lacking these skills necessarily. They're incredibly intelligent individuals. Usually it's a result of just the fast-pace day and the slow-paced judicial system, the skills to be able to design the [unintelligible] of day, but then be able to react to significant changes that occur in their caseloads, things settling, trial dates being vacated, deals, the date being moved and all of these things elicit and need to be very organized and have a good sense of time, attention and project management skills.   Sharon: Do you find that most—and I guess there are some people who just can't get organized. Can you help them overcome that or do you come in and set up systems or what do you do?   Sarah: All of the above. So, I work with a lot of lawyers that have ADHD; it's actually quite common and the reality is—I'm a naturally very, very organized person and I don't expect my clients to be 100% organized and they don't expect that of themselves, but I have a lot of strategies, ideas and tips and of course it's customized to the person. Are they a litigator or are they are transactional attorney? Are they remote or are they in the office or a hybrid? Are they a digital person or are they a paper person? And so, all of these I am able to help my clients diagnose where their weaknesses are or their challenges are, leverage the strengths that they have, but also work with the other variables like what I mentioned: in-person, remote, digital/paper and help them just make changes to their habits, make changes to their systems so that they can work more productivity and more effectively.   Sharon: And so, do you help them? Because a lot of times I think it's not that people—they realize that they need this system. Lawyers need—everybody needs systems, but especially lawyers because they're working so quickly most of the time. They need systems, but it's like, “I don't have time to stop and put that together.” So, is that what you do?   Sarah: Yeah, so when I meet with clients initially—I work with clients three ways. One is via coaching, so that's usually one-on-one or very small groups and I have three-month, six-month packages where I meet with clients and what I do there in the beginning is I have a self-assessment I send them that I've created and I have them rate themselves on different statements that are in this assessment and then I take and I rearrange it into a scorecard by various categories that are some of the variables we think of for productivity. So, we have some goals established because—why are we being more productive? Why do we want to be more productive? What are we not accomplishing or what are we missing out on or what's the feeling we have that this is something that we feel we want to improve upon. So I'm measuring goals; I'm measuring their organization; I'm measuring their well-being, their emails and then things like perfectionism, analysis/paralysis, procrastination, what kind of distractions they experience, what kinds of interruptions they experience and I'm measuring all of that, turning it into a scorecard and we meet in the beginning for an hour and a half to really dive into who they are, again what their strengths are and what their challenges are and then I kind of create a road map, so if it is a six-month coaching client, I have a general idea of where we're going for six months. I meet weekly with my clients and what I say to them is, “This is not my journey. This is your journey. I'm here to support you and help you” and so each week we make micro-changes, really, really micro-changes which is why I prescribe usually a six-month engagement weekly for 45 minutes because we're going to work usually the organization first—let's get you a little bit more organized mentally and physically. So, are you getting things out of your head? Do you have a system to put those thoughts, ideas, assets, projects, tasks, to-do's because without having a system set up, you're too afraid to let them out of your head.” So, I'm helping them first to set that up and then from there we move into some of those issues that I talked about and that's what can take the six months or longer to build these healthier habits. I'm not coming in and saying, “Day one, oh my gosh, you need to set up all these systems and you need to turn off your email and you need to do this and that and that. No, no, no, we're going to do it in a slower paced but we'll effectuate long-term changing growth.” And the last piece I was going to say on that was—I forgot. I had one more piece to say on that, but--   Sharon: When it comes back to you, you'll bring it up. So, you mentioned a couple of issues. What are the top three issues you see that are stumbling blockings for lawyers and also impede their business development? I know that you've worn the marketing hat, so you see how the productivity—you could at least be more productive so that you would have more time for business development I presume.   Sarah: Yeah, yeah, well, from a higher level what I see a lot that affects productivity in a firm—I'll talk about the firm first—I would say communication issues. That is email—and I just remembered my other train of thought by the way too--   Sharon: Please.   Sarah: I'll derail, and you can fit it in as you see fit, but I started to say there are three ways I service my clients and then I went way off on the coaching way. So, the other two ways in which I service clients is I do a lot of speaking and a lot of training. That might look like a small team, or it might look like a firm one. I've done firm-wide trainings where they bring lawyers, legal assistants, operations team, finance team, everyone to the table and I've done firm-wide trainings and then the third way I service my clients is email and digital management. I train a lot on email and not just how to use email, but our habits around emails. I connect people's habits to the technology so that busy professionals can be in control of their email because that is a huge, huge distraction piece through the day. So, the top three kind of high-level things that I see that inhibit productivity within a law firm are communication and that's giving projects over Slack, email, constant firing of email, ineffective emails or inefficient emails, volume of emails and then when we are in the office, a lot of just random projects being shouted out while walking by people's desks and so we are getting tasks and to-do's from too many mediums. That's one challenge I see on a firm level.     A second challenge that I see on a firm level is disorganization and so sometimes, whether electronically or digitally or the paper file can be disorganized, there are things that need to be in the file that should be in the file that are missing that can lead to a lot of lost time, especially when it's crunch time and we need original signatures or we're trying to locate a document or a version and we're unable to do so. That leads to a lot of challenges at a firm-wide level in productivity.   And the third one at a firm-wide level that can lead to inefficient use of time is a lack of policies or procedures and I find that a lot in firms that just don't really have a lot of procedures implemented where lawyers are doing a lot of admin, non-billable, non-captured time because there's just either no one else to go to ask or they're unclear or there's no—for lack of a better word—ramifications for some of the support staff saying, “I'm too busy. I'm not going to do it” instead, “Let me support you as the billable lawyer and find the answer or get someone who can help me help you” and I'm finding more and more in firms that that level of service internally has dissipated a little bit which is leading to a lack of productivity on a firm-wide level.   Sharon: Who calls you in? Is it managing partners, the marketing director? Who calls you in?   Sarah: All of the above. So sometimes it's the individual. They see in themselves that they can benefit working with me and oftentimes they want to do it confidentially which of course is fine with me if they're the ones reaching out. I try to encourage them if they can get firm support. If they increase their billable hours, maybe the firm will help pay for some of my services, but sometimes it's a very vulnerable place and they're just not quite ready to admit to the firm that they might need help in that area, although I will share it's very, very common for many lawyers to benefit from working with someone like me and just helping them in the day to day. I also get brought in by either managing partner level or executive director level, somewhere around there. Usually that's for either the firm-wide training or someone is being challenged at this level and we'd like you to work with them and marketing people also bring me in. I mentioned that I was in-house marketing and business development manager. I have been very involved with the Legal Marketing Association in the Bay Area for about six years now. So sometimes the marketing professional is the one bringing me in partially because of my involvement in LMA and partially because, as you even brought up yourself, Sharon, marketers are challenged with lawyers who need to find time to do the business development and marketing and oftentimes what they hear is, “I didn't have time for that,” but in reality what we know that wasn't a priority right now and so sometimes the marketers will come to me mostly for training, not so much saying, “We want you to work with this person, can you come in.” Me being the voice to let the attorneys knows the importance of finding time to develop business and sometimes the lawyers just need to hear it from someone other than their internal marketer to then go, “Oh my gosh, that's just such a great idea” or “I see where I have gaps in my daily practice and the need to grow my book of business.”   Sharon: So where do you encounter the most resistance? I can see a lot of places, but if you're brought in, who might feel the most threatened or--   Sarah: Sometimes if I'm being brought on by a stakeholder to work with a junior person on their team, sometimes I'm met with resistance by the person in the beginning. Almost always within a few sessions, they have opened up and find it incredibly beneficial to their practice, but it's a tricky situation because as that person, I can appreciate that you're being exposed to say, “Hey, we think you need to work with a productivity coach” and that can be a really confusing and scary situation and also the first thought is, “Am I going to get fired? Am I not developing enough here at the firm? Am I going to advance at this firm?” And ironically if the firm is reaching out to me, almost always what they're telling me confidentially, but before I meet with the individual, they see a ton of value in that person. They see a potential in that person. They want to invest in that person and that's usually where in the beginning, there's a little bit of insecurity that gets developed by the individual because they think, “I'm being asked to work with Firm Focus” because they don't see potential in me” and in fact it's usually the reverse. They see a lot of potential and they want to invest in the one area that they see as a challenge for that person so that then they can grow in the firm.   Sharon: No, I can see how that would be unsettling to the person at first, but the message for the firm really is—they're not going to invest in somebody they think they want out the door in a few months.   Sarah: Exactly.   Sharon: So that would be quite in a sense almost—I'm sure I'd feel if somebody came to me and said, “Oh my god, we want you to work this,” I'd feel like, “Oh my god, what am I doing wrong,” but at the same time, it's such a compliment in so many ways to have them bring you in to work with somebody. When we were talking before, tell us about some of your successes. I know you mentioned something about tremendously reducing the amount of emails they have. Tell us a little bit about that.   Sarah: Yeah, I get very excited on this topic because I developed a system; it's called the Art Email Productivity System, ARTT. So just to step back for a moment, Sharon, in life, in anything we do—and if you think I need to cook dinner; I need to go grocery shopping; I need to draft a brief—anything we do, there are five D's. We can do it right now; it's going to take me two to five minutes and I'm going to do it. We can delay it. I'm going to do it in the future. We can delegate it. I'm going to ask somebody else to do it. We can diminish it, take a big, big project and break it down or we can delete it, not do it. Those are our choices. So, in developing ARTT, as I mentioned before, I train a person's habits to match the technology because when the engineers developed email that we all use every single day, they created the tools within the software to support our habits, but no one ever really teaches us what our habits are and so that's where I find a lot of my clients use things like flags. Flags are, “This is really important, and I must do it and I can't lose it and I shouldn't forget about it” or “I need to do this in the future, so I'm going to flag it and tell Outlook or GSuite to remind me of it in three days, five days, seven days.” We use things like, “Unread, I have an action to do. I still need to do something on this email” or “Read, I don't have an action or it's a lower-priority action,” but like I said, we're never really taught how to efficiently use the software, use the tools and use the technology and so that's where I come in with ARTT.     ARTT is action, reference, tracking, trash and that's because I force my clients—I teach them what their habits are as they relate to those five Ds in the ARTT system and then I teach them the habit of touch once or mostly touch once. So, you get an email. You instantly decide is this something I need to do? Is this something I need to do in the future? Is it something I'm waiting for something back to unlock some bottlenecks? Is it something I don't need to do anything on, but I want to save it? Is it something I don't need do anything on and I don't want to save it?     And so, then what do you do with that email? And what it has done for—I teach a workshop; I do a public workshop, a two-hour workshop and that comes with a one-hour private session because I'm not coming and saying, “O.K., Sharon, here is how you need to set up your inbox.” What I do is I go in, and I ask the right questions so that your inbox is set up to support your line of business, your way of thinking and it's going to look different than John's. It's going to look different than Susan's. It's going to look different than mine and so the one-hour private session is where my clients share their inbox with me after they've gone through the workshop, and we set up the system fully and I have had many people come out of this system with a volume of email just sitting in their inbox and in the lower side maybe 12,000 emails or some-where between 5,000 and 12,000 emails. The highest was someone who had a million emails in her inbox and after implementing this system, the new habit, the new way of thinking, they finished most days with zero to maybe 20 emails in their inbox because it's making you do something with the email, not just letting it sit there and overwhelm you and not only that, the volume of email coming in reduces by implementing this system as well because you start to become very aware of what's coming into your inbox. I teach them to batch think by project or by what your behavior is with that type of email so that you can see how many future obligations you've maybe thought that you would do like, “I'm going to read all of these digests. I'm going to watch all of these replays. I'm going to listen to all of these podcasts” and now I'm forcing you to reduce decision fatigue and be intentional on what is important to you to design your proactive day and to mitigate the overwhelm. Sorry, that was a bit of a tangent on that, but I love it.   Sharon: No, no. Well, I guess what I was thinking is it sounds fabulous. I think everybody would benefit from something like this, especially lawyers with that volume of email. Let me ask you this: When you talk about inefficient email—this just came back to me. I remember when I used to work in a different lifetime at Arthur Anderson and I remember a partner who he got so annoyed about people saying, “Thanks for your message. Received your message” and he felt like, “Why are people sending me these emails?” What are your thoughts about something like that? I'm just really curious.   Sarah: Yeah, so we see that all the time and on the one hand, in the ideal world, when we're communicating back and forth, a great thing to always try to add is, “Thanks in advance for your response” because you don't feel the need to send a thank you on the back end. That being said, we can't always train—we can train some people, “please don't send these types of responses;” others we can't and so that's another way that my system is effective because now it's a click of that delete button. You got it; you received it; it took you a second to read it, but you don't really need that piece of the thread anymore. So yes, sometimes it's trainable. If it's internally or maybe if you have a really great relationship with the client, you might be say, “I appreciate your thanks. You don't need to send those. I know you appreciate my response.” If I could elaborate on this for just a second though, another one we see all of the time, “Hi, Sharon, we should really talk about this report. Let me know when you're available.”  No, no, no, “Hi, Sharon, we should really talk about this report. I've got time tomorrow between 12:00 and 2:00 or Friday any time before noon. What works with your schedule?” I see this a lot where we punt the next action to the next person. It's a way of avoiding making the decision or bothering to look at your own calendar for a minute, but you'll see a response, “Yes, that sounds good. Let me know when you want to meet” and then that goes back and forth. So, if you are proposing to connect with somebody about something, give them some options of when it works for you to connect.   Sharon: No, I think that's so important. It makes such a difference in the response you get if you say to somebody here are some times or some days as opposed to—no, that can just take forever.     Sarah: Sharon, can I say on more thing on that topic too?   Sharon: Please.   Sarah: From a client development standpoint as well, I'll let you in on a little secret. What I have found is when I'm reaching out to a potential client, I have my systems in place to follow up with them maybe in six weeks and the six-week day comes up and I know that that feeling many of us get where we go, “Oh, that's right. Here's this reminder. I need to reach back out to Susan today” and we go, “I don't know what necessarily to write at the moment,” but when you reach back out to them, if it's via email—certainly if it's via call, that's great—but it's by an email, what I have found is that if you say, “Hi, Susan,” all of the salutations that you're going to give and then you say, “Here are some times this week or next week that we can connect. Let me know if those work for you” instead of just, “Let me know if you'd like to connect if I can be of further help.” If you give specific times when you reach out, the likelihood of that person to respond increases and if they don't respond and you're waiting a day or two and you to follow up again, then you say, “Hi Susan, I know you're extremely busy. I wanted to update my availability for you. Here are some times.” Then I actually find that they respond quicker to get some time on your calendar. So, it also leaves an open gate for you to be able to respond again to update that availability if you haven't heard back from the person that you've reached out to.   Sharon: I like that a lot about updating availability because a lot of times it's like you give them and they'd say, “Don't respond. It's past” and you say, “Well, when do you want to talk?” One thing just before we end I wanted to ask you because you talk a lot about these habits and I think most people who are in a law firm at some point have taken a productivity class or time management class or whatever and what you're talking about, they're great ideas, but I can't say that they're like nobody's ever heard them before. I think it's the habits. Over six months, are you circling back with the client to just check on the habit or what's going on?   Sarah: Yeah, so I meet weekly, and they say it takes anywhere from 50 days to 365 days—don't quote me on the exact number—to build a habit. The 21-day habit, that's based on a response to plastic surgery that was blown out of the water and not accurate. It takes time to develop habits, good habits. Bad habits, they just develop right away. You start eating chocolate cake at 5:00 every day, you're going to eat chocolate cake at 5:00 every day. So good habits take time to develop which is why I'm meeting weekly for 45 minutes and then many of my clients, whatever that new habit is that we're introducing—again, they're micro; they're really small. So, I might for example introduce, “This week, let's start your shutdown routine. Now, instead of looking at what you need to in the morning or just reacting to everything that's coming at one, the night before, having a clear understanding of what you will get done the next day is a crucial part of being productive and staying focused.” And so that might be a habit that we're starting to develop as we meet this week and we're building upon it for a few weeks and talking about other things as well, but that might be the one thing that we're doing, “How did it go last week? Do we need to refine? Do we need to change the time that you're doing shutdown routine? Are you giving yourself enough time to do the shutdown routine” and then maybe that's developed and we're three months later into coaching and we're working on another issue and they go, “Oh my gosh, I've not been doing the shutdown routine” or “I'm not doing it every day like I was when we first started doing it,” then we are going to lay the foundation for that again and build it again.     Most of the time though, as we're working together, these habits are sticking, and I encourage—some of my clients are good. We meet once a week and then the next week and the micro-homework, they've done the homework; they are learning so much; they're being more organized; they're getting more done; they're billing more hours. Others send me a text every day of the top three things that they're going to focus on that day and it's just that extra layer of accountability and I'll usually respond with, “Looks good” or I might check in with them later or if I notice the next day that something that was written the day before is written again, I'll usually ask them, “Did you not have time to do it yesterday or are you just continuing to work on that one thing?” So, I'll usually communicate with them even outside of our weekly meeting and find out why am I seeing the same project day after day or I will talk about it at our next session if it's a bigger, deeper issue than just over a quick check in.   Sharon: I'll give you a final, final question because I can hear a lot of listeners going, “Sarah, that's really great and what you're saying is really great, but you don't understand. Any partner can walk in at any minute and partners walk into my office all day and throw another project at me that I didn't have in the morning, and you just don't understand how it works exactly.” What do you say?   Sarah: Absolutely, I wish I had my hour-long From Frazzle to Focus presentation because I really lay it out in that presentation, but the short answer is it absolutely happens all of the time and it's still crucial to know what the top things are that you need to focus on each day. So you go, “I need to work on this summary judgment brief. I need to get this letter out.  I need to get three subpoenas out” and as long as you know what the top three things are you need to do—and I'm kind of giving two different paths to this answer; there are two different paths. On the one hand, you know what the top priorities are that you need to work on and so when the partner does not and say, “I need you to do and work on this and it needs to be today,” you can then know what things on your own list can be bumped or needs to be bumped because you're going to have to bump something. So, can the letter get out the next day or can you delegate it? Can you break it down? You were going to spend four hours on a summary judgment brief, but now you can only spend two hours on the summary judgment brief because you need to do this other project. So, the one pathway answer is knowing your priorities so that you know how to shift them when other needs arise.     The second pathway answer is here's that procrastination. So, you get in in the morning and what I see too often is we don't know what those priorities are; we haven't written them down or identified them. We know we need to work in the summary judgment brief. We know we need to get a letter out. Oh, we got the subpoenas we need to get it, but we spend time doing the small, piddly tasks. We get caught up in email, slap chit-chatting. We get point one and point three done and then when it's time to get down to business and start working on the summary judgment brief, that's when the partner has interrupted you and needs you to do something more important and so you get that anxious feeling. You don't feel accomplished. You feel frazzled and the reality is had you know your priorities and immediately in the morning mitigated all other distractions and interruptions and started to work on that summary judgment brief, when you were interrupted, you would still feel like you accomplished that you needed to do that and not blame the partner for interrupting you and then of course let me talk to that partner about how they can manage their projects a little bit better so that they're not coming to you with urgent needs.     Sharon: No, that's really great. I'm sure everybody's going, “O.K.” I'm sure you've given people some ideas to think about. There's also the reality of, “Oh yeah, how is that partner going to react when I tell him, ‘Listen, I have other things I have to do,' but I'm sure you have tips for that. Thank you so much for being here today and talking with us. You gave us some great ideas, Sarah. I really, really appreciate it.   Sarah: It was such a pleasure, Sharon. Thank you for having me and I would love to come talk with you again anytime.   Sharon: Sounds wonderful, thank you.   END OF AUDIO

Greetings and salutations, my friends! In this week's Q+A Friday, we covered a broad range of topics including PROPER CALORIE INTAKE for weight loss, the concept of OVER EXERCISING, and how your MINDSET

Neil talks about air conditioning and sense memory. His guest, literary scholar Sharon Marcus, imagines a daredevil visit to a perfume shop. ABOUT THE GUEST Sharon Marcus is editor in chief of Public Books and the Orlando Harriman Professor of English and Comparative Literature at Columbia University. The recipient of fellowships from the Guggenheim Foundation, the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study, and the American Council of Learned Societies, she is the author of Apartment Stories (University of California Press, 1999), Between Women (Princeton University Press, 2007), and The Drama of Celebrity (Princeton University Press, 2019). ABOUT THE HOST Neil Goldberg is an artist in NYC who makes work that The New York Times has described as “tender, moving and sad but also deeply funny.” His work is in the permanent collection of MoMA, he’s a Guggenheim Fellow, and teaches at the Yale School of Art. More information at neilgoldberg.com. ABOUT THE TITLE SHE’S A TALKER was the name of Neil’s first video project. “One night in the early 90s I was combing my roommate’s cat and found myself saying the words ‘She’s a talker.’ I wondered how many other gay men in NYC might be doing the exact same thing at that very moment. With that, I set out on a project in which I videotaped over 80 gay men in their living room all over NYC, combing their cats and saying ‘She’s a talker.’” A similar spirit of NYC-centric curiosity and absurdity animates the podcast. CREDITS This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund, Western Bridge, and the David Shaw and Beth Kobliner Family Fund Producer: Devon Guinn Creative Consultants: Aaron Dalton, Molly Donahue Mixer: Fraser McCulloch Visuals and Sounds: Joshua Graver Theme Song: Jeff Hiller Website: Itai Almor & Jesse Kimotho Social Media: Lourdes Rohan Digital Strategy: Ziv Steinberg Thanks: Jennifer Callahan, Larry Krone, Tod Lippy, Sue Simon, Jonathan Taylor TRANSCRIPTION NEIL: Okay. So, Sharon, thank you for being on She’s A Talker at this fucking crazy time. SHARON: Thank you for having me, Neil. NEIL: So, Sharon, if you need to succinctly tell a stranger what it is that you do, what do you say? SHARON: I try to avoid volunteering what I do because I’m a professor of literature, and when people hear that 97% of them say, “Are you going to correct my grammar?” NEIL: Oh my God. SHARON: 2% of them say, “Can you recommend something that I should read?” Or, I once sat next to someone in a plane who launched into a, “What would you say the greatest book ever written was? What would you say the five greatest novels ever written were?” After I, like, just looked at him, and I said, “You seem really quite obsessed with lists and rankings. Why do you think that is?” To his credit, he laughed good-naturedly and said, “It’s true. It’s true. I am.” And then 1% get this like deer in the headlights look and say things like “I wasn’t very good at school.” NEIL: What do you say back to that? SHARON: Well, in this particular case, I was on a date and I said, “Yeah, well, you don’t have to be good at school. I do. I’m the one, who’s a professor.” First and last date, as you can probably guess. NEIL: Yes. Can I ask you, what are you thinking about today, March 21st? SHARON: Okay. So I’m just going to be a total fucking pain in the ass and say that the question, “What are you thinking about today?” doesn’t actually resonate with me with how I think or how I get through a day. Like, I don’t wake up and go, “What am I going to think about today?” Or even find myself thinking, “I’m thinking about blah, blah, blah.” Thoughts come in, they go out, I see things, I observe things, but it feels a little more organized maybe than my brain actually is. NEIL: Oo, I love it. So how could that question be reframed to more? SHARON: For me? NEIL: Yeah. SHARON: “What did you do today?” “What did you do today?” NEIL: Nah, nevermind. SHARON: Exactly! And I can tell you it hasn’t been very interesting, so. NEIL: Right, which is different from how it normally is for you, but maybe we’ll get to some of that. Alright. Let’s go to the cards, shall we? SHARON: I’m ready! I’m doing some of the moves I learned in my hip hop class to warm up. NEIL: Great, that’s perfect. First card is: How hugging is meant to express intimacy, but it actually articulates the separation between our bodies. SHARON: So apt! Well, it would be really nice to hug someone right now. So, my first response is it doesn’t sound like it’s really about separation. Hugging would be so nice, but I think, you know, that speaks to something very profound, which is you can only connect by acknowledging your separateness from someone. If you think you’re merged with someone, if you think you’re the same person, if you don’t take them in as a separate different person, you can’t really meet them and bond with them and touch them, even. And that does seem related to what’s going on right now, where we have so much difference in how people are responding to the situation. People who are now being really reckless about their ability to be close to other people physically I think are doing so out of a lack of sense of the existence of other people as separate from them. NEIL: Mhm. SHARON: They’re being very self-absorbed. They think they’re the only ones that matter. And so, you know, I think we’ve all seen the huggers who also are hugging to assert a certain kind of power. Not even just like a power to touch you in a way that might not be fully consensual, but a power to have their interest in feeling intimate with you and feeling connected be dominant. You know, there’s like that etiquette of: Do you go in for the hug, but then wait enough that the person can pull back without it being a big deal? Do you actually say, “Can I hug you?” Or, you know, how do you handle that? And that’s all about recognizing the separateness. So I think implicit in that card is the sense that our separateness is sort of sad and that the hug is not aware of the sadness of our alienation from each other. But I would turn that around and say if we can just remember we’re connected, but we’re separate, this society thing can work. NEIL: So what you’re saying in part is that there is something paradoxical: That those people who go ahead and hug right now, in a way, don’t recognize a type of connection. Is that right? SHARON: They’re just seeing other people as extensions of themselves. But that said, I think I would also say that it’s okay that we’re separate from each other and the hug doesn’t overcome that. We’re hugging because we’re separate from each other and so we want to feel closer. I don’t think that the total merger that maybe is implied by the perfect hug is really that desirable or really that merged. What I’m saying is, to really connect with other people and bond with them you have to respect their separateness from you and your separateness from them. NEIL: Beautiful. Next card: The ambiguity of the word helpless. “I feel helpless” is usually said in reference to, “I can’t help someone.” SHARON: Right. NEIL: And I feel helpless can also mean “No one’s helping me.” SHARON: “And I need help.” NEIL: Mhm. SHARON: “I need help so desperately because I can’t help myself.” I’m just trying to think it, how, if those are really different. I mean, I hate the word helpless because nobody’s really helpless. Everyone can always do something to help someone else. And when someone says, “I feel helpless in this situation,” I think they’re often saying that instead of saying “What can I do to help you?” NEIL: Right. Right. Very true. SHARON: One of the things that’s been interesting and challenging for me about this situation — And I think everybody has their own particular circumstances that you can’t help but bring to a pandemic and quarantine — is that my wife of 20 years died a year and a month ago of cancer. And she was basically dying of cancer for a year and a half before that happened. And she noticed that the people who really wanted to help her would either say, “What can I do to help you?” Or, even more powerfully, would say, “What can I do to help you? I was thinking I could…” and then they would say some very specific things. They wouldn’t insist on doing those specific things, but they would follow up a general offer of help with ideas that they had come up with that they weren’t imposing on her, but it was a demonstration of good faith. And it was also definitely the case that there were people who not only demonstrated their helplessness by being pretty much missing in action but people who would go the extra mile and articulate, “I feel helpless,” “I don’t know what to do,” “I wish there was something I can do for you.” It’s really annoying. I think in this current situation, it’s probably pretty similar. I think people are saying, “Oh, I feel helpless, I don’t know what I can do to help other people.” You know, it’s like a very quick Google search away. It is challenging to figure out how to help other people when you can’t leave the house and when the biggest thing you can do to help people is not leave the house. Because we’re used to thinking of health as taking very concrete action and being very direct and present and, also, we like our help to be acknowledged and, offering help at a distance, it’s harder to get acknowledgment for that. But there’s plenty of things we can all do to help right now, the Internet’s full of them: food banks that we can donate to, artists groups that are being set up to help support people who are being very quickly and harshly put out of work. So, you know, it seems like a disingenuous word to me, “helpless.” NEIL: Mhm. SHARON: Whether applied to the help when gives others or the fact that one needs help oneself. Because nobody’s — if you’re talking, you’re not that helpless in terms of your ability to take care of yourself. If you’re breathing and you’re talking, you could probably, instead of saying, “I feel helpless,” again, just make a more specific request. Like, “I could really use help with X.” But then again, I’m not a very empathetic person towards people who would use the phrase “I feel helpless.” So I feel, I should just say that if you’re feeling helpless, stay away from me, go find somebody else, which I think most helpless people figured out a long time ago. NEIL: But you are a very empathetic person, just not around that issue. SHARON: Yeah. The people in my circle who might apply that word to themselves, they don’t usually do it in my presence. NEIL: Next card: Remembering when headphones first dared to go inside the ear. SHARON: I just love headphones. I think I recognize the value of the ones that fit in your ear because then you can wear a hat if it’s cold out, but they really, really hurt my ear. So I have yet to go that route. I like the big kind that sit over your ear and kind of pillow your ear, which also serve the secondary function of sunblock so that the sun can’t get on your ears, which are actually really susceptible to skin cancers, because they’re so exposed and they stick out and the skin of your ear is quite thin. So, public service announcement: when you put on sunblock, make sure to cover your ears. NEIL: You know, I knew that! You know what I didn’t know, is to cover your neck! And I’m horrified to learn that all these years I’ve been a dedicated sunscreen-wearer every single day, but I haven’t been putting it on my neck. And I am getting a little bit of a, you know, kind of waddle or something. I don’t know what the word is. SHARON: It’s never too late to start. NEIL: Right. That’s true. What book was I reading where the answer was “the best time to do it is yesterday?” SHARON: Mm, there is a message for our times. NEIL: Oh, it was in this book, The Overstory, which I’m obsessed with. Have you read it? By Richard Powers? SHARON: Not yet. Are you enjoying it? NEIL: I finished it. I loved it. It’s not imperfect, unlike all that other perfect art out there, but, one of the characters says “The best time to plant a tree is always 20 years ago. But planting it today is better than planting it tomorrow” or something like that. And that’s a kind of a recurring — that returns in the book. SHARON: It’s true for some things. For other things it’s good to wait and sleep on it and maybe don’t do it, you know? Like that text you were going to send or that purchase you were going to make. NEIL: Next card: Perfect Sleeper seems like a counterproductive name for a mattress. Stressfully setting the bar too high. Like what about the, just like, Great Sleeper? I think Perfect Sleeper stresses me out. SHARON: As far as I’m concerned, if I’m asleep at all, that’s perfect. I don’t know what “perfect” sleep would be. It’s like a pleonasm, a redundancy. Sleeping is perfect. If I can fall asleep and stay asleep for more than 10 minutes, perfection. NEIL: Next card: Cathedrals as places that are both inside and outside. My love of them connects to my childhood wish never to leave my home; to be able to drive my house. So when I was a kid, I was always drawing a version of my house, the house that I grew up in, in Hicksville, New York originally, and I would put a turret on it that had a steering wheel so I could drive the house. And it was so comforting. I loved it. And when I go into a cathedral, I kind of get that feeling, how, without a doubt, it’s an indoor space, but there is some quality of the outdoor to it. SHARON: Because they’re so vast and soaring? NEIL: Yes. SHARON: Kind of like an Airstream? NEIL: Yeah. Yeah, I did love — Jeff’s parents for a while had an RV. And I loved riding around in that. SHARON: Hm, I do feel comforted and secure inside pretty much any dwelling that is mine, even if it’s a very small apartment. But I also remember, that also reminds me of the show Romper Room when I was a kid. Do you remember Romper Room? NEIL: Oh, yes. Miss Something. Miss Pat? Or Miss… SHARON: Miss Something. I don’t know. I really liked her. I feel like I can almost picture her and she would do a thing where she would have kids put boxes around them and pretend they were driving. So there is something I guess, about that rectangular — being contained within a rectangle that is house and car. NEIL: See, for me it was less, at the time, about a pleasure of driving. The predominant thing was not wanting to leave the house. SHARON: Mhm. NEIL: But the idea of being able to move through space while staying inside. SHARON: Without ever leaving your house. NEIL: Yeah. SHARON: So it wasn’t so much about making your car into a home. It was about being able to make your home into a vehicle so you’d never have to leave. NEIL: Exactly. SHARON: Interesting. Interesting. Well, we’re all going to get to have some version of that in the coming weeks and months, because we’re leaving our homes less than we ever have. I think it’s, I mean, this is certainly more true for people in a city. I mean, I think that people who are living in less populated, less densely populated, places are still getting in their cars and, for example, going to pick up food in a parking lot, rather than going inside the store to pick up the food. But, you know, most people who live in New York don’t have cars. And what we’re having to learn how to do is be inside, but learn to project ourselves out imaginatively. Or, by talking to people who are located somewhere else I — One thing that’s been really striking to me, it was just not exactly the same thing as driving your house, but it may be something like flying your computer. So, I stopped going out significantly on March 7th and a few days later, something kicked in where distance really stopped mattering and, in some ways, time did too. That will change because we’re all going to have to get more on schedules to stay sane, I think. But right now it feels reasonable and healthy to just accept that we’ve been very disrupted and it’s going to take us a little while to get into a routine. And so I thought, well, “Let me take advantage of this and see if I can speak to my friends who are, you know, in some cases, in such different parts of the world that I could only figure out what time it is, where they are if I look it up. I have to look it up every single time. Like, I can never remember if Australia is a day before, a day later, like, what’s going on? So, you know, all of a sudden I really do feel like my computer is functioning for me the way a plane ride used to. So maybe, maybe I have figured out a way to drive my house metaphorically, virtually. NEIL: Next card: The primal feeling of eating soup; of this liquid from the outside becoming part of the inside. SHARON: So interesting that you bring up soup because I keep going back and forth on whether I should get a blender, which is the primary way I make soup. I feel like if you want a soup, it should just be liquid you bring up in the spoon. It can be, you know, thick, it can have texture, but if it’s going to be chunky just go ahead and make a stew. So I really need a blender if I’m going to make soup. That’s my “of the moment” response. But you’re actually asking a more — Actually a lot of your questions have been about inside and outside and, you know, are we connected? Are we separate? And I guess the soup one is one as well, but I don’t know if it’s any different from any other food. I mean, I think about that. I think about how we take a lot. Like, we take food in, we incorporate it into our bodies. Even the stuff that we excrete, like, I don’t know about you, but I feel like my excretions are part of my body even though I let them go. Just like I feel like my fingernails are part of my body, even though I trim them. And yeah. To me, food really feels just like it’s inside us. It doesn’t feel separate. Read the card again. Read that card again, Neil. NEIL: The primal feeling of eating soup; of this liquid from the outside becoming part of the inside. I guess maybe that comes, also, I think I had read, you know, maybe the fact that we all kind of originated as cells in this kind of primordial soup. I don’t know what it is. Or that there’s something soupy about, I don’t know, something about this. Something from the outside that matches a little bit. Something about what it’s like inside. I don’t know what it is. SHARON: I think it’s that the ideal temperature of soup is very close to our body temperature. I think you don’t want your soup to be quite as hot as maybe some other hot foods. And so it does feel like it’s sort of copacetic with us. NEIL: I had another thought just as you were talking: I think it’s also that soup is this — like, coffee is a single note and I’m sure that there are tons of compounds in it. SHARON: Tell that to the people writing tasting notes on coffee. “Oranges, shoe leather, tobacco, bergamot, bubble gum.” But okay. I’ll go with you on that. I only smell one thing when I smell coffee. So, you know, I’m with you. NEIL: Yes. And I hear them, but with soup, at least it’s — Okay. What is coffee made of? It’s made of coffee. Let’s put it that way. SHARON: Yes. NEIL: Okay. So what is soup made of? It’s made of carrots. It’s made of ingredients that have come together in this thing. Maybe it’s that I’m saying we’re like soup. We’re like soup in a package. SHARON: Yes. Yeah. We are. We’re just this bag of organs and bones and muscle and blood, and it’s all supposed to be working together until it isn’t. And then you’re drowning in your own bodily fluids internally because your immune system overreacted to a virus. NEIL: Next card: Is there a fetish/porn structured around the dutiful sex couples that are having difficulty conceiving have? SHARON: There’s a fetish for everything. There’s gotta be a fetish for conception sex. Sure. I don’t know whose it would be, but when you’ve been alive, as long as I have, I mean, I think you just have to accept that there’s a fetish for everything. NEIL: You just named it conception sex, but there’s a hitch which is it’s, like, infertile conception sex. In other words, these are people who are having sex, it’s not happening, and you have to be kind of really assiduous. Is that the word? SHARON: Yeah, I understand what you’re saying. My point is more global, which is: is there any sexual situation that is not susceptible to being fetishized? But, you know, in general, people fetishize pleasures they don’t feel comfortable with. So the real question is, is anyone getting pleasure out of… Also, I don’t think it would be the people who actually had that sex who would fetishize it. It would be people imagining it who probably had never gone through it who would fetishize it. On another note, I can’t believe we’ve gone this far and not talked about my cat. NEIL: I have a segue, a card segue if you want. SHARON: Okay, yes, yes. NEIL: Okay: Changing the kitty litter makes me think about the possibility of redemption. SHARON: I don’t know about redemptive, but a fresh start. I guess that’s what some people’s idea of redemption is, “My sins will be redeemed and I will have a blank slate and be able to start again.” I’m not Christian so I don’t really think that way. NEIL: That’s what it brings out for me. Especially scooping. It’s just like, okay. But cleaning the whole thing, it just feels, like, “Okay, this is possible. This is possible.” SHARON: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And conversely, there’s always a tug of like, “Is it time to scoop? I should probably go scoop. I don’t really wanna scoop. I guess I better go scoop.” And then when you finally do it, there’s also the satisfaction of doing something that you’ve been procrastinating about. NEIL: Right. I don’t procrastinate on the scooping. It’s part of my, like basically morning and evening ritual. And it’s a little bit, uh, truly like a treasure hunt for me because we use, I use this recycled newspaper kitty litter that is kind of brown, and it’s shit-colored basically. So I always feel like a radiologist trying to like find the pattern of her shit in it. And, I don’t know. It also reminds me of like those Zen gardens, those Zen sand — SHARON: Absolutely! Right. Where you’re raking and then making little hillocks that are supposed to represent Mount Fuji. Absolutely. Yes. Does your cat ever, when you give her food that she doesn’t like, do the scooping gesture that you normally use to move their litter box around? They do it on the floor as though to say, literally this food is shit. NEIL: No. I think part of it is we’ve never given Beverly any food that she doesn’t like. SHARON: You know, for me, her eating habits are a little bit of a mystery to me, but I’ll never really know what goes through her mind. That’s one of the things about living with a cat. I think it’s one of the reasons we enjoy living with pets, especially cats because dogs are easier to project onto and at least imagine we know what they’re thinking. Cats I think we’ve bred to be a bit opaque. NEIL: Exactly. I think that that’s true. That’s what people don’t get. It’s like their inscrutability is a feature, not a bug. SHARON: Well, Darwin, when he is trying to explain evolution at the beginning of On the Origin of Species, uses the example of domesticated animals and also how people graft plants onto each other to say, “We know we can change species.” We do it all the time, and that’s why he calls it natural selection because, for him, pets are an example of artificial selection. We have artificially selected inscrutability, a certain standoffishness. You know, all of these traits in cats. NEIL: What’s a bad X you would take over a good Y? SHARON: I’d take a bad sweet over a good salty. NEIL: What are you really looking forward to? What are you most looking forward to after this is over? SHARON: I am really looking forward to going to a perfume store where all people do is walk around, picking things up with their hands, bringing them up to their faces and noses, and inhaling deeply, and trying a bunch of perfumes. It’s going to feel like, for me, the equivalent of scaling Mount Everest in terms of risk-taking, but when I’m ready to do that I’m really looking forward to it. NEIL: Sharon, I love you so much. I cannot believe fate has brought us together and here we are living through — I feel like we spent a lot of 9/11 time together. SHARON: We did. NEIL: You came and slept over and here we are with this one. SHARON: Yep. So nice to get to live through all this. So great. I feel so lucky. But, we are lucky because we’re here and we’re alive and we’re talking. And so, you know, I’m just going to soldier on. NEIL: Yea. Thank you, Sharon, so much for being on She’s A Talker. SHARON: Yes. Thank you for having me. JEFF HILLER: She’s A Talker with Neil Goldberg. She’s A Talker with fabulous guests. She’s A Talker, it’s better than it sounds, yeah!

Lauren Kingsbury is a current senior at Hampton University.She will be graduating in December 2019; She attained her real estate license at 18 years old and affiliated with Keller Williams Preferred Properties in 2017. Currently, Lauren is a full-time student and a part-time real estate agent; she currently is working full-time real estate for the summer to acquire her first investment property in August of this year. She works on a team with her mentor/mom Tracy Goins and assists with the day to day residential real estate activities. She hosts "Millennials Moving Out: Your Guide to More Money and More Freedom" at various colleges to spark the real estate conversation with young adults and recently released a rap video about real estate to keep young adults interested in learning about the real estate market/industry. FAR 263 Lauren Kingsbury, Real Estate Baddie Link: https://realestatebaddie.com/ https://www.instagram.com/realestatebaddie/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=behHBIkImmo&feature=youtu.be   How to contact us www.RogerBlankenship.com Facebook.com/flippingamericamedia Twitter and Instagram @FlippingAmerica Call our National Comment Line: 404-369-1018, ext 1. Leave your message or your question.  Email your questions to questions@rogerblankenship.com. Please always tell us where you are from. We like to know where the show is being heard. And let us know how you found out about us if you don’t mind.  Announcements: Lunch with me every Wednesday. Baraonda My latest article in Forbes is out. bit.ly/findredeals. The FAN is here! Would you like to invest in the Flipping America projects across the country? Coming soon you will be able to for as little as $100. 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Download the Property Grade app. You answer 10 simple questions about the property and the app instantly tells you what you can expect to make, your return on investment, your return on cash, and then the program gives the project a letter grade using the proprietary Flipping America Investment Property Grade algorithm.   News: Regular Real Estate News.  Matt Lauer Looking for a Buyer for His Waterfront Estate in the Hamptons TechCrunch Founder Sells $1.6 Million House on Crypto Real Estate Platform Syracuse.com real estate update includes gas stations, Skaneateles assisted living facility Costs $200k and now you have a flight of stairs. Flood Threats Prompt Call to Raise Houses You should not be surprised that kitchens and bathrooms are in the budget! 10 Projects That Blow Fixer-Uppers’ Budgets Build-to-rent is going public! Build-to-rent housing market explodes as investors rush in Let’s blame tariffs, the global economy, and President Trump. Why not global warming? Surely that had something to do with it? New home sales sank 7.8% in May, despite a big drop in mortgage rates Are investors pricing out first-time home buyers? Doug Duncan, Fannie Mae Chief Economist, points out the wide open opportunity for builders for first-time home buyers. Most new construction is for move-up buyers. https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/06/27/heres-what-fannie-mae-is-forecasting-for-the-housing-market.html Your Questions: Send emails to questions@rogerblankenship.com Don’t send your sales pitches to this email. Especially the really terrible “you can buy my product at a discount” with a link and NO explanation. No sales letter. If you think my team is just going to click a link in an email come on. 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I know this may seem like the opposite of the stereotype, but I want the colors to be neutral. This might be relationship advice clothed as a real estate question, but what do we do?” Xander, Battle Creek, MI “It’s been tough around here for a few years, but it looks like the jobs are coming back and things may be looking bright. So I’m starting to pick up some cheap rentals. My question is about the future. What if the jobs leave again? Where would that leave me and how do I survive?” Comment Line calls and Questions Call 404-369-1018, press 1 and leave your message! Motivational Thoughts for the day “When you know what you want, and want it bad enough, you’ll find a way to get it. – Jim Rohn”

Sharon's Questions: Which Biblical principle did Sharon share that stuck out to you? What part of Sharon's story will you share with others to encourage them in the Lord? What did you learn about faith from Sharon? What resonated with you most about Sharon's message? Has God done a Miracle in your life that you would like to share?

The Exploration of Divine Truth with Debbie and Sharon What is Divine Truth Is there really a truth greater than what we see and experience around us If you are ready to expand your consciousness or version of reality you will love this show So sit down relax and have some Chai with Nanice