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Join us for this enlightening episode of VRTAC-QM Manager Minute, where we explore the transformative power of Value-Based Purchasing (VBP), also known as Performance-Based Payment (PBP). In the studio, we have Chip Kenney, Co-Project Director of the VRTAC-QM, and Lisa Mills, a consultant and subject matter expert in VBP, sharing their expertise. VBP is more than just a financial model—it's a strategic shift designed to drive better outcomes for individuals with disabilities. By aligning provider incentives with measurable performance outcomes, State Vocational Rehabilitation Agencies (SVRAs) can enhance the quality of services, improve consumer results, and optimize costs. Tune in to hear Chip and Lisa discuss how SVRAs can harness the power of this approach to revolutionize service delivery and create a meaningful impact. Whether you're considering adopting VBP or seeking to refine your approach, this episode is packed with insights you won't want to miss! Value-Based Payment Methodologies to Advance Competitive Integrated Employment: A Mix of Inspiring Examples from Across the Country   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   Chip: Virginia reached out and they wanted to include value based purchasing specifically in their Disability Innovation grant. I said, this is an opportunity we can't pass.   Lisa: Is there anything about our payment structure that incentivizes or rewards this kind of quality that we're saying we're not getting, thus reduce the amount we're investing in unsuccessful closures.   Chip: When we can get to that point where we can identify and measure and demonstrate and get quality outcomes that will move this whole system a gigantic step forward.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today are Chip Kenney, Co-Project Director of the VRTAC for Quality Management, and Lisa Mills, Consultant and Subject Matter Expert to the QM on Value-Based Purchasing. So here's a little context for our listeners. Value-Based Purchasing, also known as Performance-Based Payment, is a model that offers financial incentives to providers for meeting certain performance measures. And as state rehab agencies look to improve outcomes for individuals with disabilities, the quality of purchased VR services, and overall cost effectiveness. A Performance-Based approach might be an option, so I don't want to steal their thunder, and I'm going to let my guests discuss what they're doing today. So let's dig in. Lisa, lets' start with you. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how did you find your way kind of into this VR space?   Lisa: Sure. So I've been in the world of disabilities for my career, for the entire career. So, 33 years, I think where now I've lost count. But about 20 years ago, I got really interested in employment working with Self-advocates way back before there was such widespread support for ending Subminimum wage. You know, the support that we do see now, but that was at a time when that it wasn't even being discussed. But Self-advocates were very clear that they wanted to earn more money and have more opportunities. So I got interested in supported employment and why we weren't using it very much. And so I started working with Medicaid and long term support agencies on improving employment services and outcomes. Back then, there was something called the Medicaid Infrastructure Grants, which allowed states to create Medicaid buy ins for working individuals with disabilities. So I really dug in around what were we doing around employment services. And of course, that brought us to the relationship with VR. And about 16 years ago, I started working on customized employment and developing ways to pay for customized employment, and worked with a couple VR agencies at the time on payment structures for customize. And then most recently, I'm a mom of a transition age son who used VR supported employment services to get his first and second jobs, and he's been employed in competitive, integrated employment since 2020. He's about to turn 21 and that has changed his life. So I'm a firm believer.   Carol: Good for him. That's really cool to know. I always love it finding out the stories people have, because you never know, we all get here a different way. But I love your path. So Chipper over to you. And I'm going to say Chipper because I'm naughty. He Chip is my colleague. So for our listeners I do like to rib Chip a bit. So Chip, how did you find your way into the VR space?   Chip: So very similar to Lisa. My whole career has been in public rehabilitation for a bit then technical assistance centers, but fast forwarding to about 2009 was interested in customized employment and its applications, and the need for VR systems to have an employment system that really addressed what people with the most significant disabilities needed to be successful, and I was sort of glommed on to that space ever since. And then with the passage of WIOA, it just seemed a really necessary connection that VR agencies and systems have something new they can offer. People who would have considered going into sheltered employment now are coming out. What are you going to offer them that's new and different from when they went in and have been at it ever since, mainly focused on the implementation side of it, because there's a bunch of trainers in that space and they're all really good. But we learned early on that it takes an infrastructure to embed, implement and sustain customized employment over a period of time. And so that's been my focus the last several years. I mean, we're still learning a lot. And rate structure is part of that, which, I mean, I've known Lisa for years too, but rate structure is something every agency struggles with. And when the opportunity came to work with Lisa on this and move this forward, I thought, this is a big missing piece that we have to fill.   Carol: Absolutely, I'm underscoring that 100% because we know we get a lot of rate work with our QM work and the whole idea and customized employment with that sustainability. You can have the great idea. And we're going to do the thing and we're all excited. But then what happens. Year one and two and three and four as it goes on and it all fades away. And we don't want that to fade away. We need to have that good sustainability plan. So Chip, how did you get involved in bringing Lisa on board? What was kind of the impetus of that?   Chip: Virginia reached out. The state of Virginia reached out to us and they wanted to include value based purchasing. And they mentioned that specifically in their Disability Innovation grant, and somebody referred them to me. I mean, I knew a bit about it, but then as soon as I saw the Lisa connection and started reading her work on it, I said, this is an opportunity we can't pass, even though I don't have any experience. But Lisa brings all that and the knowledge and the background and said, it's really important to be a part of this.   Carol: Very cool. So, Lisa, I understand you have a very unique superpower. You can speak and interpret languages across multiple partner systems. How did you develop that?   Lisa: Well, I guess I'm a bit of a policy wonk. I did a lot of interviewing of people from different systems to try to understand what was going on with partnerships, what were the challenges. And this was probably 12, 13 years ago. I was doing some work with ODEP at the time, blending and braiding. And when I was doing a lot of my interviews interviewing the different partners, including VR, I figured out that a lot of what was going on at that time was sequencing. It was really not blending or braiding, and if we wanted to get to braiding and ultimately to blending, I felt like we really had to find what was going on then as something foundational, you know? And that's where I kind of coined the term sequencing and said, this is really what we're doing, but we can help people understand then what it means to switch from sequencing to braiding, what it means to switch from braiding to blending, and really start to get people interested in the advantages of moving away from sequencing. So it really was just wanting to dig into each system enough to figure out what solutions might improve collaboration and outcomes. Sometimes it can be easy to lay out all the issues, right? Everything that's not working, but to really dig into each system and figure out where could we align ourselves, where are we aligned, and we just don't realize it? That was more, I guess, the policy wonk side of me.   Carol: I love that because I think I've been on lots of work groups over the years, I mean, I just have when we've worked between, you know, departments of education and your state Department of like maybe developmental disabilities or whatever you are calling it back in the day. And then in the VR system when we all had different ways of describing everything and we could get stuck in the what's the problem? Here's all the problems. We got problems. We have a million problems. Here's all the hundred problems we have to get through before we can get to a solution. But if you go in and go, I love that. Like, how are we aligned right now and what are the things that we could build off of right now instead of always focusing on that whole myriad of things? But I think understanding each other, how we speak about things and we may say the same word, but it means something different to each of us. Once we can kind of clear up that dictionary and talk the same language, it makes it much easier to comprehend what's going on in each other's systems and how that can then work together. I love that you have that. So what is the essence of Value-Based Purchasing?   Lisa: So to me it's quality service combined with efficient service that results in quality outcomes. So I think about that. Efficiency without quality that would not lead to quality outcomes. We'd hurry up and do things, but we wouldn't really see the quality outcomes we wanted to see. And at the same time, if you have a quality service that goes on and on and on, you lose the cost effectiveness and you typically you lose the job seeker. They're going to give up or go find a job some other way. So to me, we have to recognize we need both quality and efficiency in the way services are delivered and that we have a set of quality outcomes we want to achieve. And we have to ask ourselves, to what extent are we getting those quality outcomes? And to me, if we can figure out a payment structure that balances rewarding quality and efficiency and is really clear about what is quality and service delivery, what is efficiency and service delivery, and then what are we looking for? As quality indicators and outcomes? We can design a payment structure that really will deliver on that. And I think as you start to think about that, you realize how the existing payment structures really aren't set up to do those things for various reasons. And that really, I think, helps people buy into the idea that there might be a better way to do this. And this idea of value based purchasing might actually have some legs.   Carol: So that payment structure piece, that's my interest. How did you really dig in and kind of figure it out? Because it sounds good and I understand all the things you're saying about quality outcomes, but how when it comes down, like putting the rubber to the road, do you get at the nuts and bolts of figuring out the payment structure?   Lisa: So everybody always wants that. Next they say, so tell me what it is. And I always say it is what you need to develop locally in your system. You need buy in from those who are purchasing and those who are providing, and you've got to bring them to the table in a constructive way. So in a really collaborative way, sometimes we talk about it as co-creation and you dig into what do we agree is quality service, how do we differentiate quality service from service that we would say is not high quality. And then what do we agree is efficient service? How do we differentiate efficient service from service we would say is inefficient but very important to VR agencies, at least those I've spoken to. Are these quality outcomes, the career path outcomes, the jobs with benefits, the jobs with more hours and better pay? You know, some of these things, you're just not necessarily seeing a lot. You're getting outcomes that you can count as a 26 closure, but they aren't the kind of quality outcomes that, and you see some revolving door effect of certain people who and I know that's a big issue in some states or you see a lot of dropouts in the process. So in every state it's important to sit together and figure out what should we be doing better, what does better quality look like, and then what is quality and efficient service look like? That's how you get the buy in to establish a payment structure that where people want to implement it and intend for it to work. I can certainly share examples of how that co-creation works going on elsewhere and what the ultimate outcome was, but that is what happened there. And I really like the idea that and really believe that you've got to do a local co-creation process to get to something everybody's bought into and something that has a high probability of working. I would never say, oh, Value-Based Purchasing is this. It's only this. Or you just take this model from this other state and you plunk it down here. That won't work.   Carol: Yeah, I can see why you sing to Chip's heart there. Because he's all about systems work, you know, and that whole and everybody's systems in your state are so different. How you're set up, what your relationships are like between your providers and yourself and other entities and all of that. So I do like that you're speaking to that and you can't just pick up and replicate because you've got all your nuances that are happening in your state, and you need to understand those before you can get to the agreeable solution. That makes a lot of sense.   Chip: And it's not only that, and we're finding this to be true now that providers are not a monolith, that there's not a state where you can go, okay, every provider looks like every other provider. There are a lot of uniquenesses, a lot of variables that have to be taken into account to bring at least the majority of them on board. And that's we're finding that to be true as every state system is different, every provider network or non-network is different.   Carol: Absolutely. And even when you think about the states, kind of just the like the geographic challenges they have and the things that are going on, we've saw such an increase, especially after Covid with people moving and some of the states go like our cost of living in certain areas has gone up exponentially, like 300% or something. And so you've got everybody like, decided because they could work from anywhere. We're all moving to this town and then other areas become depleted, maybe from people, and there's less resources available and harder to get providers to serve an area even though you have customers there. I just feel like we have a lot of geographic and economic challenges across states, even tiny states. It's been super interesting. We've found that work as we've been just doing plain old rate setting with states, so let alone what you guys are digging into. So what are some of the biggest challenges in implementing this value based purchasing?   Lisa: I would say the time it takes to do it right. I think sometimes state agencies and I'm not singling out VR, but they want quick solutions. You know, they think about it for a long time and then they say, okay, we want to do it. Let's get it done. Can we get this done in three months or can we, you know, and you have to say probably not in a way that would be successful. And so it is something not to take lightly and to really commit to invest in. I think there's a lot of additional benefits to doing this, including provider relationships and the learning that goes on. Providers now understand what it's like to step in the shoes of a funder. Funders understand what it's like to step in the shoes of a provider. I always think that helps with everybody getting on the same page and agreeing to a model they think will work, but it takes patience, it takes partnership. Some states are, they're very uncomfortable with bringing providers in. They tend to develop things and then release them to providers. So you've got to have a level of trust when you identify the providers you want to involve. I always encourage to identify who are your high performers. They are the providers you want this model to work for because you want more high performers and you want those that you have to expand their footprint, for example, to go into geographic areas that are underserved or to hire more staff. So always thinking about partnering with the high performing providers. But there's a bit of reluctance, you know, and risk in doing that and saying we're going to create something together. Lots of outside the box thinking. It's really hard to get away from payment models that you've been invested in for a long time. Milestone fee for service. Just to think beyond those can be very difficult, but I think once people start to and that's something I do, is kind of bring ideas and thoughts and stimulate thinking to get them to move away from those models and really say, what should we be paying for? What is important to value in the payment structure? I think it really gets to be very exciting, or at least I think so. You really need data to you cannot develop a model without good data. Sometimes the data is readily available. It's reports that VR agencies are already pulling out of their system. Other times the data's in the system, but they don't typically pull it. And so we have to work with them. And it helps to have a data analyst to assist with this process, to be able to pull pieces of data or data analysis and different ways that informs what we're doing. We want a data driven approach. And sometimes, of course, you probably know that data analysts are very, very busy or they're off doing something else. And it may be hard to get them committed to the work.   Carol: Have you seen improvements since? I'm just thinking since WIOA and kind of the requirements that RSA has put on state agencies about collecting a vast amount more of data. Have you seen improvement as you're working with states that they actually have data they may not have had years ago that you can get at. I mean, there might be a little bit of a problem with the staffing or getting your data analysts to pull it, but that availability of the data you need to really to dig into this, that it's actually there.   Lisa: Yeah, I do think the systems are pretty sophisticated, and it's a matter of helping them understand how to use more of the data they have, because we have the standard WIOA measures. We have the way that VR talked about its performance prior to WIOA but I think we're digging in to get it more data elements that help us understand. One of the most important things to understand is demographic information and how that affects maybe how difficult or how easy it is to serve someone. So, for example, adding criminal background to someone's demographic profile, or we know from history that, you know, that does create a challenge. So it's weeding out what are the things that differentiate people who VR would serve and try and understand better how that relates to cost. The other thing that's really important that I don't typically see is what's the average cost of a successful case? So I see this is the average cost of successful closures. So taking all successful closures and dividing it by the number and then average cost of unsuccessful closures, then average cost of a case. But for me what matters most is what are we paying for a successful case if we're including everything we're paying. So including all the that we're spending on unsuccessful closures in that and saying, basically this is what it costs to get a successful case, because we also have to pay for the unsuccessful closures and trying to focus on how do we reduce, how much we're paying for unsuccessful closures, and to really make sure more of the money that we're paying flows to successful closures. There's a little bit of complacency that goes on with every system where if we just compare ourselves to other states, we may say, look, we're doing better. We should be happy with our performance. We are better than 75% of the states. But if we stand back and compare that to people without disabilities and their participation in the workforce, I think that's when we say we're comparing it to school. Like if you got 60% on a test, would you pass it or would you fail it? So I think we have to challenge ourselves to say we may be doing better than so many other states, but we are not performing at a high level and we want to move up. We want to not just judge ourselves by other states. Now, 100% success is unrealistic. I don't think there's anybody who would disagree with that, but it's important for the providers and the funder to come together and say what kind of improvement above where we've been. Do we want to try to incentivize? Do we want to see and to develop the payment structure, to say we believe this structure will directly influence our ability to move those percentages up over time and thus reduce the amount we're investing in unsuccessful closures without reducing the number of people were serving, without cherry picking, but truly improving outcomes.   Carol: I love that that is a good way to challenge the thinking that's going on out there, because people sort of, I don't know, poo poo or they just this is over there in that bucket and they let it be. And we're kind of complacent with just, you know, we're doing better but is better. What's the next state like. You know, like better than what. And so what does that matter.   Chip: But I think I mean, the key to me is the concepts of quality, the quality of services and quality outcomes. And if you can define and you can measure and you can demonstrate quality of services and quality outcomes, it seems like you don't need to compare yourself with other states. You can say this is quality in our state. This is what we're doing. This is how we're doing it. These are the outcomes. So state by state national comparisons are way less important. So when we can get to that point where we can identify and measure and demonstrate and get quality outcomes that will move this whole system gigantic step forward.   Carol: 100% Chip. So what would be your best advice for states as they're listening. Right. You know, they're listening in and they're thinking, well, I want to do something, but I don't know what to do. Like what would be the next steps? What should they do?   Lisa: To me, it's, start the conversation. I find that the process of bringing state people together with providers, that they're all learning together about this different way of thinking, And it helps because it does take a little bit to get your mind around what Value-Based Purchasing is and how it's different from milestone payments or fee for service. And I've often seen like people have come up to me sometimes and said, you know, it was the third time I heard you talk that the bells finally went on, you know? And I said, that's fine. I think it's just the way it is. It's complicated in a way, because it's so different. So getting the conversation started and thinking about, you know, asking yourself questions like, is there quality in the outcomes that we want as an agency that we're not getting quality and service delivery? We don't feel we're getting quality and outcomes we're not getting. Then think about your payment structure and say, is there anything about our payment structure that incentivizes or rewards this kind of quality that we're saying we're not getting? Sometimes maybe there's something there. Sometimes you could say, no, there's absolutely nothing in the payment structure that does that. And then I always say, think about the providers that you think are doing the best work for you. Are they financially benefiting? Are they doing better financially. And in some cases I've seen no, there's no difference. I'm performing better, but financially that's not being recognized. And in other cases I've seen they're actually earning less because they're doing such a good job and they're very efficient. You know, they're producing quality with efficiency. They're actually doing more poorly financially than some of the providers who are performing at a lower level of quality. So I think when we start to think about those questions, people see that the need to try to figure out a different way to do things, then they're willing to, you know, let's talk about what this Value-Based Purchasing is what the principles are, how it's different, and begin to think about how we might bring our high performing providers into a conversation with us about this.   Chip: My advice for states is that you're in this for the long haul. To Lisa's point very early in this discussion that this isn't a quick solution. That's something that can just be laid in the state and just immediately adapted. It does take that level of discussion, that level of understanding, collecting data. It's complex. And sometimes I think to myself, why am I choosing to get involved in the complexity of Value-Based Purchasing overlaid the complexity sometimes of customized employment, but I think in the end result we will have a much better system, much more equitable service delivery system for everyone, including providers, including customers and job seekers. But just keeping the discussion going on things like this, things that CSAVR presentations Getting this into the national discussion, I think, is the first step.   Carol: Those are really good tips. Where outside of VR is Value-Based Purchasing being implemented?   Lisa: So definitely in the Medicaid world, most of your listeners are probably aware of that, but mostly in the Medicaid world, it's on the acute primary care side. So hospitals and doctors, primary care physicians and things. So I always caution people there's things we can learn from that and those examples. But it's not a wholesale import those approaches over to VR. I don't think that would work. But there are some principles or strategies that we can use, like there's a concept called shared savings. There's some other things that I think we can think about and use, but we still have to develop something that's specific to employment. In my work on this around employment on the Medicaid side has been with the long term services and support agencies, the DD agencies, the mental health agencies, managed care organizations who are doing LTSS and employment is a perfect place to start with them around their thinking, around Value-Based Purchasing. They're facing some pressure. I would say some to use Value-Based Purchasing because it's seen to be working on the acute primary side of Medicaid. So they're saying, why aren't we using it in LTSS? And they want better quality and better efficiency too. They want to see people supported to achieve their highest level of independence. They want their high performing providers to do well. So we worked on it with employment because it's so obvious that fee for service, which is the typical payment model, disincentivizes all the things that we associate with high quality supported employment, the better you are at getting people jobs, the better you are at coaching and fading because you're good at it. We reward providers under fee for service with less money. And those providers are performing more poorly, end up with more money. So it's not hard to get people to see why fee for service doesn't work for supported employment. So we've worked on models for job coaching that pay for hours worked rather than hours of coaching, so that providers are appropriately financially compensated if they do better at fading, which goes back to what kind of job did they get people, as well as how good they are at coaching. That model incentivizes them to get people more hours. So if you start with 12 hours a week, that doesn't mean you stay with it. If they're doing well, the employer wants to increase that. The person wants that they can get paid more in the model. Fee for service providers don't get any financial remuneration for increasing people's hours worked, even though we say that's a goal. So that's been a lot of where we see some of the value based models developing. We're paying for things up front services like exploration, which I'm really happy to see the results of states that have added exploration and exploration to their waivers, because we now have a way to tackle people who say no thanks in a planning meeting or I'm not interested, or their families say that we've been paying for developing payment models for that. That's an outcome payment. So they complete the service, then they get paid based on the quality of the information they submit and the efficiency. So there are ways to align what we're doing. Providers certainly appreciate that they would like to be paid the same way. Typically once they experience being paid in a Value-Based structure. So that's where it's happening. But think about just the general business world. There are so many examples of payment based on performance or quality, right. Sales Salespeople earn incentives for sales. So business has long been doing this in terms of creating those kinds of incentives and even nonprofits. Now, United Way and others are funding nonprofits based on outcomes and deliverables. They're no longer funding them to just provide service. So I think if you look, we're seeing it everywhere, really.   Carol: So you brought up a whole lot of points. If people are interested in more information, do you have resources we could send them to?   Lisa: Well, in 2021, I did a publication that looked at examples from around the country that I'd been in some way involved in. That's on the Lead Center website as well as there are a series of webinars we did at the time with representatives from various states. I have a lot of information about what's going on in the Medicaid side. Et etcetera. So I guess I would say that was my thinking in 2021, I continue to learn and evolve my thinking, and I think we're at a point now where we're trying to do in Virginia, is move beyond both fee for service and milestones, because neither are working very well, right? So you've got some state VR agency saying we're paying fee for service. It's not working. Should we move to milestone? But if you talk to states who are using milestone, they will also say it's not working very well. Some of them are thinking about going back to fee for service. And I'm thinking, I don't think we should do either. I think we should work together to figure out what's the next way we attempt this that addresses the shortcomings of both. And I think that pathway is Value-Based Purchasing.   Chip: and helping moving states to. Well, I'm a little concerned about the unknown. What we have may not be working now, but it's the known. I don't really know what's ahead, but I think where in Virginia at least, has done a really good job of creating that safe space. Like, let's explore this together and keep this comfort zone of what we currently have, but move forward into something that's more equitable and beneficial for them.   Carol: So, Chip, if people wanted to reach out, what would be the best thing? Should they contact you or what would be best?   Chip: Either one of us is if it's a state agency, probably me if it's others listening to this. Lisa.   Carol: Do you want to give them your email address?   Chip: It's r k e n n e y at SDSU (San Diego State University) dot EDU.   Carol: Awesome. And, Lisa, do you mind sharing your email address?   Lisa: No, but I'll warn you, it's long. So here we go, Lisa Mills l L i s a M i l l s, all one word, at M as in Michael, T as in Tom, D as in David, D as in David, dot On Microsoft, all one word, com. And that was my IT friends who gave me that ridiculously long email, which I hate.   Carol: Holy smokes, that is long. Well thank you both. I really appreciate it. And I will put a link in our podcast announcement out to your publication from 2021 as well. Then folks could at least see that. But thanks for your time. I really appreciate the conversation.   Lisa: Thank you.   Chip: Thanks. We really appreciate this opportunity.   Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Using Strengths to Believe in Yourself From time to time, everyone struggles to believe in themselves. Especially when faced with challenges and changes in their lives. Too often, this doubt can lead to feelings of inadequacy, and hold us back from the growth we desire. That's why we look to our talents: to identify and question limiting beliefs, so we can shift our mindset to take actionable steps toward our goals, no matter how unattainable they may seem. As always, this episode is packed with insights and practical tips to help you believe in yourself and take those next steps on your journey of development and growth.

About This Episode Are you getting ready to take the CliftonStrengths assessment? This episode is for you! Between the two of us (Lisa & Brea), we've facilitated tens of thousands of these bad boys. So, we share the ins and outs of ‘what to know before you go' - CliftonStrengths edition.   In this episode, we answer questions like: “How long will it take?” “Is this a test?” “Will it put me in a box?” “Top 5, Full 34, Managers, and Leaders…oh my! How do I know which one is right for me?” …and plenty more!   As always, you're in for lots of laughs, personal anecdotes, and practical tips. So, what are you waiting for? Let's dive in!     Work With Us!   If you're thinking about introducing your team, department, or organization to the CliftonStrengths assessment, BREA is ready to help you every step of the way. Don't get tripped up in the details. From purchasing codes and distributing codes, to facilitating the assessment, collating reports, and leading a workshop to help you understand what it all means…she'll take care of it all! Visit brearoper.com to schedule a call today!   To work with LISA, check out team workshops and retreats at the Lead Through Strengths site. For 1:1 strengths or life coaching, check out the Get Coached link. For independent coaches, trainers, and speakers, get business tools support with our Tools for Coaches membership.     Takeaways Embrace your uniqueness. The CliftonStrengths assessment is not a test with right or wrong answers. It's an opportunity to discover what makes you unique and special. By entering the assessment with an open mind and embracing your natural preferences, you can uncover your innate talents and strengths that can help you thrive in both your personal and professional life. Go with your gut. Rather than overthinking or trying to fit into a specific mold, trust your natural reactions and preferences. By tapping into your instinctual responses, you will uncover your greatest areas of potential - your natural talents! Leverage your results for success. After taking the assessment, many individuals are pleasantly surprised by how accurately it reflects their strengths and talents. The CliftonStrengths assessment can provide valuable insights into how you work best and what comes naturally to you. By leveraging these results, you can align your strengths with your goals, whether in the workplace or at home, and unlock your full potential for success.   Take Action ●      Download the checklist for “How To Take the CliftonStrengths Assessment” at brearoper.com. ●      Do it! Take the assessment! Click here to buy a code.   Let's Connect! ●      LISA: Website | LinkedIn | Facebook ●      BREA: Website | LinkedIn | Instagram   AI-Generated Transcript Lisa Hi, I'm Lisa.   Brea And I'm Brea   Lisa And today's topic is taking the CliftonStrengths assessment.   Brea Woo-woo!   Lisa All the things to expect. Brea, do you want to start with just kind of going back and forth, almost lightning round style, where we share with people what to expect when they open this thing up?   Brea Totally. So first of all, it's not a test. This is not something that you can fail. This is not something that is graded, okay? So it's an assessment that is looking at what's good in you and there are no wrong answers. So I think first off, that's where I'd love to start is just enter into it knowing that there are no wrong answers. You can't do it wrong. There's no way to mess it up. Just go in and just be your lovely self.   Lisa Agreed. And if you are a strengths coach, or you are internal inside of corporate, and you're doing this with your team, and you think people might even find the word assessment scary, like, Ooh, there is a right answer. They're assessing my, whether I'm good. I also have had plenty of clients use the term survey, and it goes totally fine. So yes, call it what is going to make sense to the person taking it and not feel like an evaluation of good or bad.   Brea Yes. Love that, Lisa. Just don't use the word test ever. It's bad. Love. Don't do it.   Lisa Yeah. You're going to turn the team off and they're going to be like, I don't want to take a test. Thank you very much. No thanks.   Brea How do you recommend people start approaching this, Lisa?   Lisa Well, one of the most important things, in my opinion, is just to give people an idea of the time it will take so that they can carve out the right amount of time. I think asking people to be sure they have an uninterrupted 45 minutes. I know some people will say 30 minutes or something shorter, but I like to go for 45 because you might have people who take it a little bit slower, and they might read the opening screens a little more slowly. And that way you've covered it, like they block, then they're going to probably block off an hour. And that those are uninterrupted minutes, because you can't pause it. And If you let them tick by, they're going to be counted as neutral. Those answers are going to get thrown out. And Brea, what's going to happen if they get a bunch of neutrals?   Brea Well, if they get a bunch of neutrals, it's, I mean, they don't even show your results. You know, it's kind of nullified and void. So not only do you waste your money and you waste your code, but you've put all that time into it and you didn't even get what you were looking for. So, you know, it's hard because a lot of people like, well, it depends, you know, I don't know if I'm strongly like this or not strongly like this. It depends on the situation as much as you can try to err on one side or the other of that median. And that will help your results so much.   Lisa Yes. And like, if I think of an example, here's what it's like. It's a bunch of questions. Actually, there are 200 questions. So you can imagine, in 45 minutes or less, zipping through 200 questions. They only give you 20 seconds each. And And it's a this or that. It's like, do you like cats or dogs? Now, those are not actual questions. You're not going to be asked things like cats or dogs, but I'm just doing it so that you can see an example of how you might be like, well, yes. And yes, I love both of those. I have to be neutral because I can't pick a cat over a dog. Other people are going to be like, dogs clearly are winners. And then you're going to strongly agree with that. And there are a couple of notches that you can do the strongly agree. The main point that I want to get out there is in this this or that exercise 200 times, you might feel like yes and yes or no and no. And you might feel so strongly that I dislike them both equally. That's what the neutral is for. But it really would need to be absolutely equal. Try to give it a weighting. on one side or the other. And just go with instinct, not what you're supposed to say, not what your role calls for today in the job, not what it's like at home versus at work. Just at your natural preference or instinct, what is the answer? Go, and don't overthink it.   Brea Totally. And I think if you get stuck, a good way to approach it is to think about when you were a kid, how might you have answered the question? Maybe not literally in your childhood, but the idea is it's not looking for skills. or knowledge or things that you've acquired as you've, you know, aged and grown and gone through life. These are natural patterns of thought, feeling and behavior. So when you're stressed, how might you, you know, if you're stressed in some way, you have to make a quick decision. What's your first instinctual, emotional reaction, don't answer as you think you should or as a good person or the right thing to do. How do you want to respond in that moment, in that situation? What feels most natural for you? And that's the right answer. That's the best answer.   Lisa Yeah, and I will add to that in the kind of team or corporate environment, every once in a while, people are like, well, I've done these before. And you know, I did, I did disk with my team back in the day. And if you were an S, then you were not the good group. And so people have had some experiences with something. I don't want to beat up disk because it can be really amazing if done well. But they've taken other assessments and they've had a bad experience. And when they do the workshop, as it unfolds, there becomes a good answer and a bad answer for that corporate culture or for that team. And that's really not ever something I've seen happen with strengths. So the thing is, if you do what Bria just said and you pick what naturally feels good to you. You pick your preference. There's not going to be a good answer or a bad answer. Every result that comes out is going to be something good that the team wants from you. So I love how the results show your success factors. And not good behavior, bad behavior. I have never seen teams demonize a theme or a group of these themes that come out. So I feel like you can rest easy knowing, no matter what your results are, they're going to show your easy buttons for success. they're not going to put you in a good crew or a bad crew. Not to mention, there are 34 potential talent themes that come out on the Strengths Report. So it's not like you can say, Well, No. 1, these 10 are great for our team. These 2 are not. There are just too many of them. So it is totally in your best interest to answer with your instinct.   Brea Totally. And just remember, what is all this for? Well, it's to discover what you naturally do best, how you naturally work or live as your best self. So to hide that because maybe you've learned to play smaller than you are or you've learned that people who have certain behaviors get ahead, you know, or whatever. If you're fitting yourself into those boxes, CliftonStrengths is your opportunity to just break down those walls and break down those barriers and really, really discover and celebrate what makes you unique and special. in a way that allows you to thrive. So one of the common objections that people have are hesitations to taking this assessment is I don't want to be put into a box. This really is as opposite of that as possible. This is breaking those boxes and it's saying you are one of a kind and we want you to be able to show up at work as your best self. So let's figure out what that is and then let's leverage it and use it for your success and for the success of the team.   Lisa Yes, well said. Oh, I think there are a couple more things that I would want to move back toward the beginning. Before they ever start answering the questions, there are two things that I just thought of they might want to know about. As we were talking about, Hey, it's timed, it's 20 seconds, give your instinct, be ready to zip through this uninterrupted time. If you are a person who says, oh my gosh, but all through university, I had an accommodation. I had the timer taken off all of my tests. This is an actual thing for me. You can call Gallup's help desk and get the timer taken off if you have a reason for accommodation. So that is a thing. Just wanted to make mention of that. And it does tell you that when you redeem your code, if you pay attention to the first couple of screens, And then the other thing is there are multiple languages. There are actually dozens of languages you can take the assessment in. So if English isn't your first language and you're more comfortable in another, that is available for you. And it's a question that some people want to know before they get into this thing.   Brea Yes. Great practical tips. That's why you're a pro, Lisa. I love that.   Lisa Thank you. Well, it takes away from instinct, right? Where you're like, wait, I'm translating in my head for the whole 20 seconds.   Brea Yes. And if you are planning to take it in your native language, there's no worry about how that affects the overall group. Your manager or your team leader or whoever will be able to see your results in English or in their primary language. So even if you take it in a different language, they'll be able to see your results in their native language.   Lisa Yeah. And I think depending on the type of assessment you take, so you can choose a top five report, which is the basic standard. You can take a full 34 report or get the full 34 report, I should say. Taking the assessment is the same no matter what. It's which report you've paid to see. So the top five is the standard basic. You can also do versions that are role specific. There's one called CliftonStrengths for Managers. There's one called CliftonStrengths for Leaders. And there's one called CliftonStrengths for Sales. And those are all Top 10 reports. They show a little bit more to you. And then there's a full 34, where you can see the stack rank of all of the 34 talent themes from 1 to 34. No matter what, Gallup knows your stack rank from top to bottom. And And then if you pay to unlock, you can see the greater amount. So I think that's nice to know, because you'll see in your own personal intensity order from top to bottom, it doesn't mean your strengths are at the top and your weaknesses are at the bottom. But it means you'll get your strongest through supporting through lesser. I think that's nice to know, because when you're when they're taking it, I experienced from my corporate clients, sometimes they're like, Well, is it going to show what I'm terrible at? And then I'm going to get exposed at work." No, it's going to show what your top easy buttons are. It's like a showing of your top success factors, which things should you lean on in order to most easily leverage what makes you great. And that's what this list of talents is showing.   Brea Yes. So this is so good, Lisa. I just want to reiterate and maybe clarify a little bit the difference between the assessment and the report. So this is such a great point that you're making. The assessment is the survey that you take, the 200 questions that you answer. There is only one CliftonStrengths assessment. It's put out by Gallup. There are no free versions of this. Anything else is an imitation. Gallup has one assessment. Everybody takes the same assessment. then you have the choice of which report you want. I think the full 34 is the best place to start. That's just my personal opinion because it shows you your full 34 profile, which there are 34 total talents. So like Lisa said, you get to see that full ranking, but you can choose to do just your top five. You can also choose to do a different report that's taking your results and describing it for your role as a manager, or for your role as a leader, or for your role as a salesperson. All the reports, all the results use the same data from the CliftonStrengths Assessment.   Lisa Yes, that is a great distinction. And also mentioning the free imitations and some of those things. That's great to know about. You also made me think about things that they say after taking the assessment. I don't know if you've heard of any kind of trend quips, but I have a couple that I hear people say over and over. And one of them is, I'll show up in a large workshop, and somebody grabs me beforehand, and they're like, Hey, Is this some sort of, like, try-to-catch-me-lying thing? Because it asked me the same question, surely, it was 10 times, and I thought that was so weird. Why does it keep asking me the same question? Am I lying? That's so funny. No, it's not any kind of lie-catching algorithm. Think about the this or that. Do you like dogs and cats example that I gave? But what about if you say, I don't know, I'm kind of neutral. I absolutely adore dogs and cats equally. I cannot decide. You click neutral. But then if it says, what about cats versus snakes? And you're like, oh, I love cats compared to snakes. Well, see, you didn't give cats the vote before, but now you gave cats a high vote. And so that's what it's doing. It's taking it and putting it next to something else. Because how else is it going to make a stack rank if it doesn't give you multiple scenarios with the same thing? You're not in a trap if it keeps asking you the same question. Do you have anything like that you have heard?   Brea I've never heard anybody say it quite like that. It's just making me giggle.   Lisa Yeah, this is good. There's one other one I've heard several times. People are like, how does it come up with those questions? It's funny because some people are like, yeah, it's just really transactional. It gives you just a bunch of preferences. And then other people are like, it's asking me about whether I'm sensitive or I like history movies or something and there they have a little bit of an interpretation memory of what the questions were. But again, it's just asking you questions that get to these themes of talent that reflect how you think or feel or act when you're at your natural best. Most of the questions from workplace standpoint don't surprise people but there are a couple in there where they're like whoa this is like deeper life stuff and I think that gets to the theme of just this is you as a whole person don't try to answer it as the work you and separate it and say well the home me would be like this and the work me would be like that because the truth is You are a person, and you might reveal more of yourself at home or work. But back to Bria's point about just, like, give your instinct answer. That is a key part of what to expect here.   Brea I love that. Yeah, I think what I hear most from people is just, wow, how did that know me so well? You know, like it totally nailed it. So not always, but most of the time people just love their results. Maybe that's just my positivity that remembers those comments more, but most of the time that's, you know, what I hear is like, wow, is this a crystal ball, you know?   Lisa Yes. Well, now I lead through positivity in my Top 5 as well. So maybe we're introducing a bias here. But I will say I, I know that I hear that often. And they'll say, Gosh, based on the questions, I'm so surprised at how it came to this and how it describes me. I've had people say, Whoa, this report, it has said the nicest things about me than anyone has ever said about me. And then I have a lot of people say, Wow, this really nailed me and brought some unique perspective into the way that I work or think that I've, I've never been able to put into words. And then we, of course, can put it into their career brand and team assignments and all kinds of useful things. But it is always a surprise to a good handful of people how those questions translated into the outcomes and the, the talent themes that come out in the report. So I love that you brought that up.   Brea I love that and I want to squeeze one more quick practical thing in. A lot of times people take this at work and then they're like, wow, can my spouse take this? Can my kids take this? Can I use this at home or can I take this to a more personal place? And the answer is yes and absolutely. If you're thinking about kids, Gallup recommends adults take this CliftonStrengths assessment, which is usually like juniors and seniors in high school. and up. So if you have little kids, this is not the assessment for them. Gallup does have another assessment for them, but 18 and up or, you know, a junior who is just maybe a little bit ahead, I think I've used it with some juniors and seniors. Beautiful.   Lisa Yeah. Great mention in that CliftonStrengths for Students. And what's the book? Strengths-Based Parenting that Gallup put out, where there are some codes that you could use with your whole family?   Brea Yeah, it's amazing. I think Strengths-Based Parenting actually includes two codes, one for the parent and one for the child, which is cool.   Lisa Exactly. Beautiful. OK, so if somebody wants to work with you, Bria, on any of the aforementioned CliftonStrengths. How would they go about working with you?   Brea Yeah, so my website is really the best place to connect with me. It's BriaRoper.com. That's B-R-E-A-R-O-P-E-R.com. And you can schedule a quick little chat. We'll meet each other and see if we're a good fit. And if not, no big deal. No pressure. What about you, Lisa?   Lisa Well, LeadThroughStrengths.com is where you can find the website. And in the context of the conversation today, I would point people to the link in the top navigation called Buy Codes. And that way, if you want to buy a code and you haven't yet, now you totally know what to expect and you will be ready to go. You can just grab one on your own and then pick up the phone and find yourself a coach from there. And that's a future episode that we'll cover. What do you do after you get this report? What could you do with coaching and what could you do with it on your own?   Brea Yes, I'm so excited for that conversation.   Lisa Amazing. All right. Well, with that, we are so happy that you're interested in your strengths and love that you now can have a greater view into how your strengths can act like your easy buttons for life.   Brea Awesome. Go live your strengths, people. Go take the assessment if you haven't already. Take it. Discover your strengths because you are awesome.   Lisa You are. Go do it as soon as possible.   Brea Right now, just go right now.   Let's Connect! ●      LISA: Website | LinkedIn | Facebook ●      BREA: Website | LinkedIn | Instagram  

There are a range of outcomes from a genomic test. The results might provide a diagnosis, there may be a variant of uncertain significance, where a genetic variant is likely the cause of the condition, or there might be no particular gene found that is linked to the phenotype or clinical condition - also known as a "no primary finding" result. In this episode, our guests explore the impact of a "no primary finding" result on families, discussing the common experiences and expectations of parents and patients who undergo that genetic testing, and the role that hope plays in the experiences of children with rare and undiagnosed conditions. Today's host, Lisa Beaton, member of the Participant Panel at Genomics England is joined by Dr Celine Lewis, Principal Research Fellow in Genomics at UCL, Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health, Jana Gurasashvili, a Genetic Counsellor, and Louise Fish, CEO of Genetic Alliance.   "I think it's also really important to add that hope isn't necessarily lost when you don't get a diagnostic result. And in a sense, what can be really helpful is for genetic counsellors to reframe that hope...sort of giving it a different context."   For more information on the SWAN UK project which supports families with children that have been through genetic testing but have not found a result following that genetic testing, visit the website. Read more about the study by Jana Gurasashvili and Dr Celine Lewis: The disequilibrium of hope: a grounded theory analysis of parents' experiences of receiving a "no primary finding" result from genome sequencing.   You can read the transcript below or down it here: https://files.genomicsengland.co.uk/documents/Podcast-transcripts/Hope-for-those-with-no-primary-findings.docx    Lisa: Hello, welcome to the G Word.  Lisa: I think in the back of my mind, subconsciously, I had hoped that when we eventually got a diagnosis, it would – I don't know, bells and whistles, balloons going off, fireworks, etc. And then the experience of a letter thumping on the doormat, and I recognised the postmark quite quickly, and it was at that moment I suddenly thought, “Oh gosh, I haven't buried all these feelings of hope.” Because I opened that letter with quite trembly hands, and then this diagnosis or lack of diagnosis, you know, nothing had been found, and it was a bit… I don't know if it's been described as like a nail in the coffin experience, because I really hadn't realised I was still clinging to this hope all that time, and then again it was, you know, another, “No, nothing's there. Lisa: My name is Lisa Beaton and I'm a member of the participant panel at Genomics England. On today's episode, I'm joined by Dr Celine Lewis, the principal research fellow in Genomics at UCL, Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health, Jana Gurasashvili, a genetic counsellor, and Louise Fish, the CEO of Genetic Alliance. Today we'll be discussing the impact on parents with children with rare conditions, who received a no primary findings result after diagnostic whole genome sequencing. If you enjoy today's episode, we'd love your support. Please like, share and rate us on wherever you listen to your podcasts. Can I ask all of us here present to introduce themselves, please? Celine: Hi everyone, I'm Celine, I'm a behavioural scientist in genomics at UCL Institute of Child Health, and I currently hold an NAHR advanced fellowship to look at the implementation of WGS, or whole genome sequencing, in the NHS. Jana: I'm Jana Gurasashvili and I'm a genetic counsellor at Northwest Thames Regional Genetic Service, and prior to that I was at Great Ormond Street, involved with consenting families to the 100,000 Genomes Project, and I also have an ongoing interest in the lived experience of patients and parents of genetic counselling and rare disease. Louise: Hi, I'm Louise Fish, I'm the chief executive of Genetic Alliance UK, and we are an alliance of around 230 charities and support groups that work with patients and families who have particular rare conditions. We also run a really longstanding project called SWAN UK, and SWAN stands for syndromes without a name. And the SWAN UK project supports families with children that have been through genetic testing but have not found a result following that genetic testing. So, it's clear they have a genetic condition, but science hasn't quite advanced far enough yet to tell us what that means and what that will mean for their child, and what that will mean for their family over the coming years. Lisa: And I personally can attest to the wonderful support that SWAN UK can offer because, as the parent of a still undiagnosed child, I have been involved myself with SWAN UK since my daughter was around the age of three to four years old. It's brilliant being a part of my big SWAN UK family. We first realised that there were some – I suppose something wrong with our daughter when she was around two weeks of age, but it wasn't something I could specifically put my finger on. I couldn't at that point have taken her to a doctor and said, “I don't know what's wrong but there's something wrong.” I just knew in my heart of hearts, probably because I have three elder children, that there were issues, and things weren't developing as they should. She cried a lot, she screamed a lot, she never seemed to be comfortable in any position when you held her, when she was asleep, when she was upright. It didn't seem to matter what you did, she was just a rigid, stuck child, for want of a better word. And all my mum senses were screaming, but it completely sounded ridiculous to take her to a doctor saying, “She feels wrong.” And I think that's quite a SWAN UK experience, from chatting to other families with similar situations. The parents just know that there's something not right, but it can be very isolating not to be able to identify kind of where that starts and what it is. In our case, it wasn't until our daughter was nine weeks old that things became much more obvious, that there were developmental concerns physically and medically, and at that point we went from my sort of mutterings that there was something wrong but I wasn't sure what it was, to a sudden hospital admission with quite a shocking turn of events. From something that had started out quite normally, as a routine visit to the baby clinic, to suddenly being seen by a troop of different paediatricians, and doctors coming in and out constantly, asking different questions, and sending us off all over the building for different tests and x-rays and imaging. And being given a partial diagnosis that our daughter had a condition called arthrogryposis, but it was clear that there was much more going on than that, and we would need referring to many more different fields. And that day really our diagnostic odyssey, for want of a better word, began. So actually, in terms of that diagnostic odyssey, many parents of children with rare undiagnosed conditions experience this, and when we agree to have genetic testing, we feel that we are going to get these answers straight away, and that every appointment that you go along to is going to be the one that brings you the answers. But certainly in our experience kind of 15 years on, that's not been the story at all. Celine, can I ask you to explain what the words no primary findings actually mean when a parent receives that regarding their child? Celine: So, there's a range of different possible outcomes from a genomic test. So, the results might provide a diagnosis to that patient and family, or other situations, there might be a variant of uncertain significance, so we don't necessarily know if the gene that we found, a genetic variant is the likely cause of the condition, or we might find no particular gene at all that we think is linked to the child's phenotype or clinical condition. So, that's what we mean really when we're sort of saying no primary finding. Lisa: Louise, would you be kind enough to explain what you think the impact of no primary findings means to families like my own, parents who don't have a genetic likelihood cause, just a gene thrown up to diagnose their child? Louise: Yeah, I think it's a huge challenge for families, and you'll obviously know that from your own experience. People go to have genetic testing hoping it will give them some answers, first and foremost, just to kind of understand, you know, what condition their child has and what the likely impact that's going to be on their child and on the child's life, and on the family's wider life. And I think one of the things that we really ask genetic counsellors and geneticists to do is help people understand before the genetic testing takes place that there may be nothing found from it, so that that kind of expectation is built in. Because people hope that they will get a diagnosis that will give them answers about what the impact of the condition will be on their lives. In a best-case scenario, access to a particular treatment that might be a huge help for their child, but at the very least, access to a range of services and support for their child. So, that kind of diagnosis is often seen by families as the key to unlocking a range of services and support that will help them and their families at what is the beginning of a lifelong journey. And I think when families get no diagnosis, there's a real concern on behalf of families, a, that they don't understand how their child's going to be affected by the condition. What we're really careful to say to families is, “Just ‘cos you don't have a diagnosis with a name, your child is still the same person they were before. They still have exactly the same bundle of needs as they had before, and you will still need to work with the NHS and with wider services to make sure that they can access speech and language therapy, and physiotherapy, and all of the services that they are going to need and you are going to need to help them live their lives to the full.” But I think that moment of not getting a diagnosis is when people feel I think real – the uncertainty continues, and uncertainty, we know, is a really hard thing to live with, and the lack of clarity about which services you'll be able to access. So, I think psychologically it's a massive impact on the family not to have the answers that they were looking for, or the key to the services that they were hoping would be there. Lisa: Thank you, Louise, yeah, I would definitely agree with that. We had a no primary findings result in I think it was 2019. It was a really bittersweet moment because my daughter's list of various different conditions kind of – by this point, named parts of difficulties for her spans over sort of two pages of A4, and yet on the letter back from the genomics service, it just says that, you know, nothing causative has been found. And so part of you is left wondering, well, how can there be all these different conditions or difficulties, and yet there's still nothing there? And I know personally, I had comments when she was much younger, every time a test came back, where people would say things like, “Oh well, that's great news,” and to some extent it was great news that something hadn't been found, but also if that hadn't been found, what was still out there? And that fear of kind of the unknown was extremely difficult. And also paradoxically, there was a sense of some very well meaning people saying things like, “Oh well, if they haven't found anything then there can't be too much wrong.” But yeah, I have a child who is tube fed and on multiple different medications, and cared for basically for 24 hours a day, so that doesn't really fit in with the picture of there not being very much wrong from a personal perspective. And I think it can make you as a parent/carer feel perhaps there's a tendency to downplay that there is an issue and that perhaps, you know, you're making it up, for want of a better word, and that sense of isolation around that can certainly be problematic. Celine, if I can come to you, that diagnostic odyssey, what are the common experiences and expectations of parents and patients who undergo that genetic testing from your perspective? Celine: Well, I think sort of parents go into genetics testing for a whole range of reasons really, and Louise has already alluded to many of these. Ones that I've come across in my own work include wanting to know why their child has a particular health problem, so that that child can access the most suitable treatments or therapies, or even access clinical trials. Even relief from guilt for many parents, a validation that the parents hadn't done anything wrong during their pregnancy to cause the child's condition, and that's hugely important really, to try and get that relief from guilt. Also to know whether future children might be affected by the same condition, and then more social reasons really, for example, making contact with other parents through support groups, or access to social and educational support. And I think there's also a drive from many parents to feel that they're doing everything absolutely possible for their child. I mean, particularly with something like the 100,000 Genomes Project, it was really a sort of first of its kind project, where patients were on a significant scale able to access this new whole genome sequencing technology. So, many of the parents taking part in that project felt like pioneers, and there was really a lot of expectations around whole genome sequencing in delivering a diagnosis for those parents who'd previously not been able to get hold of one. Lisa: Yes, I strongly can resonate with a number of the points you made there, particularly the feelings of guilt. I must have asked myself a thousand times whether, you know, something I did do, something I didn't do, something I thought of, something I hadn't thought of [laughter], all those questions that swirl around, particularly in the small hours of the night when you feel particularly alone. And yes, I can completely relate to that. And also although SWAN UK is primarily for children and parent/carers whose children don't have a diagnosis, actually a number of the parent/carers on there will have children with diagnoses that are so very rare that absolutely, you know, very, very little is known. They might be the only parent – the diagnosis, for want of a better word, they may have received may just be a series of kind of numbers and genetic dot-dashes, forgive my layman's terms there, but it may not actually help them any further along in terms of feeling that they know anything further or the direction of, you know, where that will lead their children, and that can feel very, very isolating, I'm sure, probably just as much for those of us who don't have that diagnosis. Louise: Yeah, just to add to that, I think that's absolutely right, Lisa, and I just want to give a shoutout – at SWAN UK, we tend to support families who don't have a diagnosis at all, or, as you say, a small number of families who do but have been part of the SWAN UK family for so long that we're very happy to keep them because of the support they're finding from other parents. We work really closely with another of our members, Unique, who are a charity that support parents in exactly the situation you've talked about, where people have finally got a diagnosis and it's that kind of relief of having a name, but it's a super long name, and you find out you're one of only three families in the world with that diagnosis. And so although there's a real I think comfort for people, perhaps if you have a five year old and you're meeting a family who have a 13 year old and a family of a 19 year old, then you start to see a little bit about how your child might develop, but there's not enough kids affected that you can be really certain about that. So, it gives you a little bit more information, but not the kind of wealth of information you were hoping for about how your child's going to be impacted by a particular condition, and what the future might hold for you and for them. So, SWAN UK and Unique very much work alongside each other to kind of support families on whichever part of that journey they're on, because there's still a huge amount of uncertainty for families with those super rare conditions, as you say. Lisa: Definitely, and I'm sure you'll be familiar, Louise, yourself if you get time to go on the online communities and seeing the question that pops up quite regularly when somebody has received a diagnosis of, “Can we still remain part of the SWAN UK family?” And they very much use that word, family, because I think they do feel that, although all our children are different, there are children with physical, medical, cognitive, a combination of all the above syndromes, conditions, etc, they feel that kind of embrace of all being in a collective club of rare and unique and undiagnosed, and that's very comforting to the members. Louise: Absolutely, yeah, I think that sense of belonging and being able to reach out to other families that you've been on that journey with for many, many years. You know, many of our families join when their children are like one or two, and they're still with us when, you know, their children are 26, 27 [laughter], and that sense of having that community and that family and that belonging is really, really important to people, I agree. It makes a big difference psychologically to be part of a community you can reach out to and ask the questions that perhaps you can't ask to other people. Lisa: Celine, can I ask you how many patients for the 100,000 Genome Project have had a no primary findings diagnosis back? Celine: Well, back in 2021, there was a paper published in the New England Journal of Medicine, which reported that, in the initial pilot for the 100K, a diagnosis was found for around 25 percent of rare disease participants, and other studies looking at the diagnostic yield of whole genome sequencing have put the number anywhere between 25 percent to 55 percent, depending on the clinical indication. And we know that even already from the 100,000 Genomes Project, this pioneering project has led to more than 6,000 diagnoses being identified, and that number will obviously continue to go up as they explore the data and gather new insights. However, that still obviously leaves a significant number that won't get a result from whole genome sequencing, as many as half of those rare disease patients, and that was really the basis of the study that Jana and I worked on. So, we felt that there had been so much research really looking at the experience of parents who do receive a genetic diagnosis, and that a lot of attention rightfully does focus on the amazing successes of the 100,000 Genomes Project and genomic medicine more broadly, but actually that there is a considerable number of patients and parents and families who don't get a result, and we felt that it was important that we also focus on those parents and patients, and try and understand their experiences. Lisa: Yes, you can feel, if your child, for example, is under multiple different care specialists, that it can be quite hard, when you've just got this list of different names of things that are wrong, that you feel very much still out on the limb and forgotten about. But it's clear that, from your work, you're identifying that and pointing that back to the specialists, the consultants, to remind them that these parents and these children are still finding their ways through. Can I ask you, Jana, the study that was conducted, what would you say the main things from that study told us? Can you describe some of the emotions experienced by the parents, and what challenges that they have faced along that receiving the no primary findings diagnosis? Jana: Yes. So, many participants really felt very strong disappointment and sadness on receiving that no result, and for many, it kind of reflected the feelings they had had when they first realised they had a child and there was no diagnosis for their condition. And as Celine said, this was such a new technology that people had invested a lot of hope in, and so many felt that it had been their last chance of finding a reason for their child's condition, and that they'd come to the end of the road with that no primary finding result. And, well, one person described it as another door shut. And people talked about the actual toll taken, the emotional and physical toll, and one person described feeling low for several weeks following the result. And some talked about the timing of the result. Somebody got it as a letter just before Christmas, and so their whole family holiday that they'd prepared was marred by getting that news just before Christmas. And it often seemed to leave parents feeling isolated and unable to contribute to normal parental roles, such as going to parent groups, etc, because they felt that other mothers particularly - as it's mothers we were speaking to, other mothers, their experience of motherhood was so incredibly different to their own, and they felt a lack of support. And one parent actually talked about wanting to lock everyone in the house just to escape the feeling of judgement and pity from outside the front door. And some parents talked about finding it hard when other people would post on support groups that they had got results from the 100,000 Genomes Project, which was very difficult. And some talked about hope as finding it hard to keep hopeful but needing to keep hopeful. So, they talked of hanging onto a little bit of hope, as though that was quite an intense thing, which I think, Celine, you'll agree, that made us able to kind of identify that hope was really part of a coping mechanism for this whole process of going through this diagnostic odyssey. Celine: Yeah, people sort of talked about not wanting to let go of hope and the importance of hope, and that without hope, there was no sense of wanting to continue this journey of trying to find a diagnosis, and that it was still very important to people. And I think that parents did understand that, even though a no primary findings result now, that doesn't necessarily mean that they won't get a diagnosis at some point in the future. So, there's obviously the opportunity to do future reanalysis of the genome, particularly as we understand more about the function of different genes, and as new genes are added to many of the panels that we're using in whole genome sequencing. So, I don't think not finding a result means that there is no hope in these circumstances, but for many parents, they did talk about hope being too painful, and not wanting to be let down again, and really preferred to focus on the here and the now rather than necessarily focus on the future. Lisa: Yes, I can only speak from my own experience here, but I think I primed myself to actually forget about going on the 100,000 genomes sequencing because, having undergone genetic testing for certain conditions that they were quite convinced my daughter had from around the age of four months through to around the age of three years, I'd gone to so many appointments and thought, “Oh, this'll be the time that I turn up and somebody will tell me this is what is the diagnosis.” And when I then joined the 100,000 Genomes Project in 2015 with my husband and my daughter, the genetic experience, the discussions that we had at the time were very helpful in that it was made quite clear to me that potentially we wouldn't get a finding, and actually that any information that did come forward was perhaps unlikely to be hugely beneficial to our family at that point. So, I was quite clear what potential finding would mean to us. But I think in the back of my mind, subconsciously, I had hoped that, when we eventually got a diagnosis, it would – I don't know, bells, whistles, balloons going up, fireworks, etc. And then the experience of a letter thumping on the doormat, and I recognised the postmark quite quickly, and it was at that moment I suddenly thought, “Oh gosh, I haven't buried all these feelings of hope.” Because I opened that letter with quite trembly hands, and then this diagnosis or lack of diagnosis, you know, nothing had been found, and it was a bit… I don't know if it's been described as like a nail in the coffin experience, because I really hadn't realised I was still clinging to this hope all that time, and then again it was, you know, another, “No, nothing's there.” And I think because of the work I've undertaken with SWAN UK as a volunteer, and being quite involved in wanting to sort of educate myself and learn more, I did understand that, even though we had no primary findings, it didn't mean that the study, everything was closed to us. It didn't mean, you know, that things won't still be looked for. But equally, at the same time, it just meant that we had nothing yet to pin anything on at that point. And I think it's quite hard to pick yourself up and dust yourself off again, to be like, “Okay, we're still here, we're still circling that drain,” as it were. I think actually that takes us on quite nicely really, about what role hope has in the experiences of a child with rare and undiagnosed conditions. And again if I can just say that there's hope and there's realism, and somewhere along the way, if you've been on the journey for quite a long period of time like ourselves, you have to try and find a way of living with that hope and realism all at the same time. So, we're still hopeful that one day we might get some answers, but we're realistic that day to day we need to focus on the difficulties or the experiences that my daughter has, so that we can manage to give her the skills to live her life to the very best of her abilities. Certainly, that's our experience. And also I think if I'd let myself dwell forever on not having a diagnosis or a pathway specifically for that, it would have been quite difficult to carry on, pick ourselves up every day. What would you think about the role of hope there, Louise? What would you say your experience is from chatting to fellow parent/carers? Louise: Yeah, I think you've described it really eloquently and better than I'll be able to do, but when we talk to people, the phrase I always have in my head is kind of hope for tomorrow and help for today are the two things that people are looking for. So, making sure that that hope for tomorrow's still there both in terms of, you know, the NHS being really clear that it will provide support for individuals without a diagnosis, and there may be opportunities for reanalysis in the future as science makes future progress. And, you know, there is progress being made so fast at the moment in genomics and that's really welcome. So, making sure that people who've already had whole genome sequencing but not found anything continue to have access to that potential reanalysis I think is really important. As you've rightly said, Lisa, as well, thinking through in terms of hope for tomorrow, the opportunity to take part in clinical trials and to make that as easy as possible where treatments are being delivered, to have the opportunities to take part in trials for non-condition specific treatments, whether that's for epilepsy, which affects people across a whole range of conditions, or sleeplessness, which affects people across a whole range of genetic conditions. You know, there are both trials that only people who have a particular condition can take part in, and trials that are open more broadly, so making sure those opportunities are available as well, so that people have that kind of hope for the future. But alongside that, I think it's really important for the NHS to be clear with people about what help for today will continue to be available, and so we are working really hard with the NHS to emphasise the fact that when no diagnosis is possible, the NHS still needs to be clear to people about how they will be supported, whether that's through the genetics team or a particular discipline, perhaps the one that is the closest fit for their child's biggest need, whatever that may be, that they can still access more joined up care. So, you know, who is the person in the NHS, if you don't have a diagnosis, who's going to help you secure referrals to speech and language therapy, to physiotherapy, to learning disability nurses, and to the package of care that your child may need. Who is the clinician, if you don't have a clear diagnosis, who's going to be the person with the authority and the confidence to lead the multidisciplinary team, maybe up to 30 healthcare professionals who are going to support your child. You know, who is going to be the lead clinician that's going to pull that multidisciplinary team together and make sure that your child's not being prescribed stuff that's contraindicated, or that's going to help one element of their condition but make another element worse. So, we are really trying to work with the NHS to make sure they're thinking through, where will that support be for the family in terms of their healthcare. And alongside that, you know, many wider services like schools or social care or employers welcome the chance to talk to a geneticist or a genetic counsellor or nurse to understand what adjustments they might need to make for someone who clearly has a genetic condition but doesn't have a clear diagnosis. And so we're trying to kind of make sure the NHS is both focused on the kind of science side and making sure that the hope for future findings is there, but also the help side, and making sure that the right package of care is still available for families who clearly have a genetic condition. Lisa: Actually Louise, yeah, you've really summed it up excellently there, and whilst I am hugely grateful to the NHS and the various services, I can say, hand on my heart, my daughter has a huge number of professionals involved, both from the health side of things and social care side of things, and actually the person that kind of holds all that together is myself. And because we're under multiple different teams, every time a new medication, for example, is prescribed, I need to go back to our lead team, which in this case happens to be neuromuscular, and check that, for example, if gastroenterology have prescribed a medication, that it's not contraindicated from a neuromuscular side of things and so forth. It's all a bit like having sort of interlocking parts of a jigsaw, but perhaps no picture to follow [laughter], and that can be quite an isolating experience. And certainly, having chatted to fellow parent/carers, I know that's their experience as well. And I imagine, Celine and Jana, you found sort of similar experiences when conducting the research. Celine: Yeah, so my PhD actually was focusing on the sort of journey for parents as they go through the diagnostic process, and one of the things that came out really strongly from that body of work was how the parents were really carving their own care pathway, how they had to sort of push and fight to access services, but at the same time were the gatekeepers for their child's health. Having to make sure all the various teams and clinicians were kept up to date with all the different tests that they had and all the results. And, you know, at times, this could be really frustrating for a lot of parents, ‘cos they had to keep repeating their story over and over again, particularly ‘cos they didn't have a diagnosis. So, these parents really were having a very different parental experience to many of their friends and family, because their experience of being a parent to a child with an undiagnosed condition was really sort of as being a patient advocate, and as having to push and fight to access services. Lisa: Yeah, it's quite a unique experience. You are the specialist for your own child in that sense, I think would be the way I'd describe it. And I suppose over the years, I've got so used to sort of trotting out different medical explanations in terms that you can almost sound like you know what you're doing [laughter]. And a few times when I've been at medical appointments, and perhaps we've met a new specialist or consultant, they've said, “Oh, what's your field? What's your area of expertise?” And actually you just think, “No, I'm just a specialist in my own child” [laughter]. But that's quite an empowering feeling actually, so I guess that plays back into the feelings around hope and expectation, even with having an undiagnosed child. Lisa:    When I was recruited to the 100,000 Genome Programme, we didn't actually as a family receive genetic counselling specifically, and I know that this is something that is incredibly important to many families, and how that can support you sort of going forward. We were quite lucky in our experience in that we knew that our daughter was definitely going to be our last child, so we didn't have the thoughts and insecurities around potentially what it might mean for any future children that we had. But certainly as my daughter has got older and she's asking her own questions, and our older children are at a stage in life where they're looking at potentially having families in the future, I know that those things have come up, and we're just still exploring what that will mean in the bigger picture. But can you tell us, Jana, really what can genetic counsellors do to help parents feel less isolated and better to cope with the uncertainty surrounding their child's condition? Jana: Yes, well, I'm sorry to hear you didn't have any genetic counselling prior to going on the 100,000 Genomes Project, because that consent conversation right at the beginning, before the whole genome sequencing, is really important. It's important to know what the range of outcomes may be, so that it may be that you might get a result, you might get a variant of uncertain significance, or you might get no result. And parents in our study did suggest that their sense of isolation when they got a no primary finding result would have been alleviated if they'd known how many were not getting results. So I think in the longer run, it's 40 percent perhaps received a result, so that's 60 percent that didn't receive a result, so those parents were not alone, but they felt very alone. And some suggested if they'd just had a leaflet really explaining that, and explaining that they'd still contributed to research and that that had been, you know, a good outcome in a sense, then they would have felt better about it. So, a lot of work can be done before the testing really, to explore how you might feel on that range of results, and then that way sort of prepare parents for how they're going to feel, and perhaps that helps them to have things in place, to know that it might be a vulnerable time with that letter, although that was particular for the 100,000 Genomes Project, to get the result in a letter in that way, and as you described, after such a long time, that you'd been able to forget that you'd been on the project. But to actually be a little bit prepared that it make take its toll on you might actually help with preparing oneself. It also might be helpful to include ways of promoting ways to enhance health and wellbeing for parents in terms of practical support, such as those things that you're already attempting to access, like the respite services, school support, support groups, and thinking about psychological wellbeing and ways of managing stress, psychological support for parents, and possibly spirituality based resources as well. And focusing maybe on what is known about the child's condition even without a diagnosis, so what's likely to be beneficial, and support parents in actively coping, such as what research they might be able to access, and continued medical support. And also actually having a named person within the genetics service, so they have someone to go to for any follow-up that has a name, and so they don't feel isolated from the genetic service. And signposting to those external resources, such as SWAN UK, can be very important as well, of course. Celine: I think it's also really important to add that hope isn't necessarily lost when you don't get a diagnostic result. And in a sense, what can be really helpful is for genetic counsellors to reframe that hope, if you like. So, one thing that we talk about in our paper is that it might be useful for health professionals to ask a question such as, “In light of the new information that we now have from the whole genome sequencing result, what are you hoping for now?” So in a way, it's sort of reframing that hope, sort of giving it a different context. Lisa: Definitely, and I think one of the things as well is that, because potentially for when parents were first recruited to a study such as the 100,000 Genome specifically in this case, that it might be quite a length of time between that initial recruitment and when the actual result comes out. And of course, in that time, with the advances in genetics, it's sort of somewhat of a Pandora's box really, isn't it, in that we're almost kind of finding the information out quicker than we actually know how to process it and what it potentially means. So actually if there's a genetic counsellor available to speak to those parents, or for those parents to be signposted to somebody who can say, “Well look, since you were recruited, actually this is happening, that's happening,” or, “These research projects are happening,” personally, I can say that is going to be really helpful and handy, and would have been really useful. I just know that for myself anyway and my family, that if there was a leaflet or something that had given me a way of knowing how I could contact somebody in the future, that would be really helpful. What ways do genetic counsellors use in maintaining a delicate balance between not creating false hope but also providing meaningful support to parents? What would you say around that, Jana? Jana: I think as we've already touched on, it's that managing expectations from the outset when the test is offered. So, not generating too much hype or excitement, but setting those expectations, giving that information about the diagnostic yield. Also, informing parents that what people do experience has been described as a rollercoaster of emotions. It's normal. You might also want to explore people, not only what they're hoping for, but also the outcomes that they might be fearing, and giving them a chance to voice those, because they can be very powerful things as well. A diagnosis might not be what you want to hear, so there can be a lot of ambivalence around wanting a diagnosis when it might actually be a life limiting condition, that you didn't really want that certainty. And also helping parents to explore how not receiving a result might feel, so that they've actually rehearsed it a little bit, and where they might go to when they need a bit of extra support. So, they already know, “I go and talk to my friends, that's where I get my support from,” so that they're kind of ready for it, and that might help them with that sense of isolation, but also validating these feelings. So, it's okay, it's okay to have that dip, it's okay to feel, that it's something that many people experience. And creating a safe space for people to feel that, so if they want to talk to a professional or a friend, that those feelings are validated. And in that way, kind of with that pre-counselling really, helping parents to develop their own set of resources, so they've got those to draw on. And as you've mentioned, Lisa, it's like having your own resources also helps generate that feeling of empowerment and control. And as Celine has said, it's really facilitating parents through that passage of reframing what you're hoping for, reframing what the future looks like, if you had one picture of a future. You need to become comfortable with the future you're now looking at. Lisa: Thank you, Jana. Louise, if I can ask you really, we've already touched on the role that SWAN UK can play for parents dealing with undiagnosed rare conditions, but perhaps if you could home in on that and explain in more detail the main focus of SWAN UK, and what that can do for parent/carers. Louise: So, what SWAN UK primarily does is bring together parents who are in a similar situation. So, we have a team of amazing parent representatives, who Lisa is one, who help us shape the support that SWAN UK can provide, and really make sure that it's based on a really strong understanding of what it's like to be a parent of a child with an undiagnosed genetic condition, and an understanding of that kind of expertise that parents who have been on that journey themselves will bring. So, we have a series of Facebook groups. Some of them are for different regions, so people come into contact with other parents in their area who are going through similar circumstances. Some of them are more around age. So, you know, we have Facebook groups for parents who are waiting for a diagnosis or have got a new diagnosis, and then we have a group called SWAN Graduates, which is for children who are older and over 18, so their parents can come together and share their experiences. So, it's really to help parents be able to talk to one another, to share their experiences, to support one another, and often to ask for advice. They're often kind of practical questions about, you know, “My child needs this kind of wheelchair, has anybody been able to source that from somewhere?” “My child's having real difficulties eating at the moment, can anyone give some advice on this particular challenge?” “This thing someone else has faced, how did you approach it? Where did you reach out for support?” So, that peer to peer advice and support is really at the heart of SWAN UK. And then what we try and provide around that is access sometimes to information events, where there's particular issues that are affecting a lot of SWAN families. So, we hope over the coming year to have a series of information events targeted at families with children who don't have a diagnosis, and some of it is just trying to have social events and bring people together again. We've had, for example, an active dads group in Wales, who've been bowling and wanted to go axe throwing, and really they just want to come together with other dads who are in the same situation, and being able to talk to one another and provide emotional support to one another. So, that's kind of the nub of SWAN UK and what we do, and then alongside that, that kind of fits in with Genetic Alliance's wider goal, which is much more around campaigning for improved services. So for example, the Genetic Alliance UK team has worked really closely with commissioners in Wales, who actually commissioned the first SWAN clinic, which is in Cardiff. That was a two year pilot, to see what support could be provided both to help SWAN families get a diagnosis, but far beyond that, to make sure that the care for families who don't have a diagnosis is better joined up. And that we feel has been a real success. Again, there hasn't been a really high diagnostic yield, there have been very few new diagnoses, but the support provided to the families who are in contact with that clinic, in terms of helping them access better joined up care both from the NHS and from services more widely, has been brilliant. And we're currently working with NHS England in the UK, who are exploring an opportunity to commission two SWAN clinics in England. So, that trying to kind of improve services, and then the third aspect of that is just working generally with the new genomic medicine service alliances as they emerge across England, to try and make sure they are thinking through what support they will need to continue providing to families who've gone for whole genome sequencing in future, not through a research project like 100,000 Genomes, but just through routine clinical practice and routine clinical diagnostics, what support will they need to provide for families who go through that process and don't get an answer. And that won't change the support they will need from the NHS. It will just mean that perhaps that clinic needs to play a more active role in helping them access those services. So, all of that kind of campaigning to have better services for family who have an undiagnosed genetic condition continues as well. Lisa: So, I think one of the things really just to finish off today, is of course looking at the future. Considering advancements in technology, would you say that future reanalysis of the 100,000 Genome Project is going to yield additional insights? Celine, can I ask you to comment on that? Celine: Yes, absolutely. As we understand more about the role and function of different genes, and as new genes are added to the panels, we will definitely be able to provide a diagnosis for more parents and more families. But I think we don't yet necessarily know exactly what that reanalysis will look like, and it's not really clear yet how this will work in practice. Lisa: And Louise, would you have anything else to add to that at all really? Louise: No, I think it is just that hope for the future and kind of help for today. I think the NHS needs to be equally clear about, you know, there's some amazing investment by the UK government in genomic research, and that's brilliant and we want that to continue, but equally we want the investment to be taking place into routine clinical services and diagnostic services, so that we can talk to people both about the hope of potentially getting a diagnosis in future, but making sure that the help continues to be available for as long as they don't have a diagnosis, and that help for families who don't have a diagnosis is going to be just as important. And what we try to ask for is both real clarity around what the NHS can provide, and really clear signposting to organisations like SWAN for families that continue to not have a diagnosis. And again, just to give an equal shout out to Unique, who are able to support families who have an ultrarare diagnosis, where perhaps they're the only person in the country with that particular diagnosis, or one of a handful of families around the world. Signposting to that peer to peer support will continue to be a really important part of the process as well, so that families can help one another, learn from one another, and just give each other support that they are kind of sharing that same journey and walking alongside one another on that journey as it continues. Lisa: And bringing this podcast to a close, can I just ask you really, any final thoughts, anything that you would sum up from your experience of researching the no primary findings and where we now are today? Celine: I think the main thing for me is just to sort of make it clear to parents that a diagnosis isn't necessarily a magic wand, even though it is obviously very important to a lot of parents. But that even without a diagnosis, we still have the opportunity to manage patients' symptoms, and often a diagnosis doesn't make a substantial difference, because parents are sometimes left with a lot of uncertainties and a lot of unanswered questions. So I think, and as Louise and Jana have said before, it's really sort of on focusing what we do know, and thinking about what we can offer and what support we can provide to parents and families even without a diagnosis. Lisa: Thank you very much to our guests today, Jana Gurasashvili, Celine Lewis and Louise Fish, for joining me as we discussed the impact of a no primary findings result. If you'd like to hear more like this then please subscribe to the G Word on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for listening. I've been your host, Lisa Beaton. This podcast was edited by Mark Kendrick at Ventoux Digital, and produced by Naimah Callachand.    

What you'll learn in this episode:   What jewelry can tell us about the aesthetics and values of a particular era. Why sustainability in the jewelry industry is essential, and why the definition of “sustainable” is much broader than we might think. Why maintaining purpose is the key to making our world and our creative work better. Why the term “ethical jewelry” is less about materials and more about our choices as consumers and makers. How Lisa decides which topics deserve attention at Initiatives in Art and Culture's conferences.   About Lisa Koenigsberg   Lisa Koenigsberg is President and Founder, Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC) and an internationally recognized thought-leader in visual culture. Koenigsberg's work is characterized by commitment to authenticity, artisanry, materials, sustainability, and responsible practice. Over 20 years ago, she established IAC's multi-disciplinary conference series on visual culture and has since been responsible for launching its web-based webinars and other offerings. She has held leadership positions at NYU where she also served on the faculty, at several major museums, and at the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission.   Koenigsberg's writings have appeared in such books as The Art of Collecting (ed. D. Jensen), Auspicious Vision: Edward Wales Root and American Modernism, Architecture: A Place for Women (eds. E. P. Berkeley and M. McQuaid), The Gilded Edge: The Art of the Frame (ed. E. Wilner), in journals such as Gems and Jewellery (the publication of the Gemmological Association of Great Britain), American Art Journal, Proceedings of the American Antiquarian Society, and Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians, as well as in magazines and in Trendvision's Trendbook.   A frequent speaker, she has also organized symposia and special sessions at universities, museums, and professional organizations throughout the US and abroad, including at the State Art Collections of Dresden, NYU, City University Graduate Center, the Smithsonian Institution, the Norton Museum of Art, and the United Nations, and has organized and chaired sessions at the American Association of Museums, the Goldsmiths Company (London), the Society of Architectural Historians, Yale University Art Gallery, the Aspen Institute, and the Jewelry Industry Summit and at JCK.   She holds graduate degrees from The Johns Hopkins University and from Yale University from which she received her PhD. She is president of the Board of the Morris–Jumel Museum, a trustee of Glessner House in Chicago, and is a member of the Advisory Board of Ethical Metalsmiths and of the board of the NY Silver Society.   Additional Resources: Initiatives in Art and Culture Instagram Initiatives in Art and Culture Facebook Initiatives in Art and Culture Linkedin Initiatives in Art and Culture Linktr.ee Lisa Koenigsberg Linkedin   Photos are available on TheJewelryJourney.com     Transcript: What is sustainable jewelry? According to Lisa Koenigsberg, it's about much more than the materials used. As founder of Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC), Lisa has organized dozens of conferences to encourage people to explore sustainability, stores of value, visual culture and more, all through the lens of jewelry. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what visual culture is and why it's significant; what it means for makers and jewelry professionals to maintain purpose; and what we can expect from IAC's upcoming conferences. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, my guest is Lisa Koenigsberg speaking to us from New York and environs back east. She is the founder of Initiatives in Art and Culture, which is focused on a number of issues such as women in western art. There's also a conference, which I just noticed, on arts and crafts in the art world. She is an internationally recognized authority on material culture. This July, she is chairing an important conference called “Maintaining Purpose” with a focus on how to make something we all love, jewelry. We'll learn more about her jewelry journey today and hear more about the conference. I didn't go into all the details of the conference and her background because it would take too long. Lisa, welcome to the program. Lisa: Thank you. It's so nice to be here. Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey. Were you a jeweler? Were you educated as a jeweler? Lisa: No, I am not a jeweler. I am the child of two people who are very object-driven and, of course, a mother with extraordinary taste. But in terms of how you might say I studied jewelry, jewelry was part of what we looked at when thinking about—a term I find not felicitous, but I'll use it for the moment—decorative arts, so fitting into the range of the useful and the beautiful. Silver, for example. Jewelry certainly had a space there, and that was the earliest point for me that was non-life-driven. One of the great blessings that happened to me was that I did my graduate work at Yale. That was when the arts and crafts movement wasn't codified in the same way it is now. We sat around and talked about it in the back room of the American Arts office. There were objects there, and we had the opportunity to hold, see, explore. At the time, I also used to wash silver and jewelry for an extraordinary dealer who wrote a wonderful book, Rosalie Roberian. One of the things that did was give me a sense of weight, dimension, proportion, of engaging closely with materiality. Although the arts and crafts is one dimension, I think that illustrates well one of the things that has been so important for me, which is looking for the opportunity to hold, the opportunity to talk with makers. For example, every year, The Goldsmiths' Company in the U.K. does something called the Goldsmiths' Fair. At the Goldsmiths' Fair, there is one week with 67 or so makers. During that time, you can go and speak with any of the makers, explore the work in your hand, look closely at it. I think the journey of looking is probably one of the most important things. I've been interested in jewelry as a manifestation of the aesthetic of any era for a very long time as well. My background and training are cross-disciplinary. I'm an American studies person. For me, one of the things I always look for is what we are seeing as characteristic of an age, for example. I see jewelry as very much a part of the tangible expressions of an era. For example, if you're talking about a brooch, you can be working on a sculpture for the body, similarly with neckwear. It's one of the most intriguing forms of expression there is. Making jewelry, the impulse to craft out of whatever the culture sees as precious material, is one of the innate impulses we have, along with the urge to adorn. If you step back and think about it, jewelry is intertwined with so many events of state, events of faith, events of heart. The Pope, for example, wears the Fisherman's Ring, and at the passing of each Pope, that ring is shattered; a new ring is made. We're all currently fixated on the crown jewels as Charles' coronation comes up. All of that is actually jewelry. It's jewelry indicative of state, of lineage, obviously of aesthetics. The band that many of us wear on one left or right ring finger, as simple or as elaborate as it may be, that is jewelry. It's a signifier. It's also invested with tremendous emotion. Jewelry plays an enormously powerful role in culture. It's another kind of historical document. So, if we look at jewelry, we can learn things. For example, you can explore the kinds of ornament it was thought only men wore, but by actually going back and looking, as it was done in the exhibition “Golden Kingdoms,” you can see that women also wore certain kinds of major ceremonial ornament. You can learn from the inscriptions. You can learn about stylistic transmission from the aesthetics. One of the things we don't think about so much is what we leave behind. When we go and look at how we have explored previous cultures, past cultures, one of the things we see is that the documents are often what have been termed luxury arts. They are art that are made of objects that are deemed precious within a culture. They demonstrate a certain egis over resources and talent, but they also serve as documents of that culture. They tell us things about religion, about aesthetics, about faith, about ritual. We need to be thinking about that with regard to jewelry in our own age as well. What are we leaving behind? Sharon: You cover so many things in Initiatives in Art and Culture. You talk about gems and sustainability and art. It's so many things. How did you start this, and what is the conference about? Lisa: I founded Initiatives in Art and Culture in 2004. One of the reasons it was started is because I had developed a series of conferences that had, at their core, a concern for visual culture. What does visual culture tell you? Because there is much to be learned about materiality. What's it made of? How do we get those materials? And that opens the door to discussing sustainability. Then, what's done with those materials? What are the forms? What are the means of expression, whether it's three-dimensional, such as a ring, or two-dimensional, except that it really has a third dimension, however subtle it may be. So, within the category of good, better or best, what differentiates an object from another? Then taking it a step further, what does that object mean in terms of the way we use it, in terms of its place in society, in terms of what it says? Beyond that, how is it linked to the time, or does it presage the future in some way? I'm sure I've left out some foci related to political and social concerns, but it's that wholeness that is inherent in visual culture. That is the focus of what IAC does. We have deep commitment to artistry and materials as well as a commitment to responsible practice. Sharon: Several questions. Were you always interested in all of this, or is it something your professors taught you and you learned as you read? It's not the way I would look at something. I think it's really interesting. How did you start looking at this? Lisa: I was born into a family that was and remains very visually engaged and involved with art, very involved with looking. Well before I had what one might think of as a professor, I had my parents, who in effect included me in their world of looking from moment one. My experience of art, of objects, has been part of my life since the very beginning. For us, a shared experience was very often looking, whether it was going to an exhibition or a trip planned specifically to see certain things. This was very much part of my world, or the world I was lucky enough to be born into. That included the people that were friends of my parents, and that included curators and collectors and people who were very engaged in the world of looking. My mother herself is a very well-recognized either fiber artist or artist who does sculpture using wire to explore grid and void. I say that to avoid the nomenclature wars. I was very lucky to have some extraordinary teachers, but one of the best teachers I had was in high school. We reenacted the Ruskin Whistler trial. I was the attorney for Ruskin, so I had to know all about each one of the witnesses, each one of the people who appeared and testified in the trial, and that made art come alive in a way that was exceptional. Another thing was that during those years, there was something called the myth and image school. It's the idea that an era has emblems that are representative, that are invested with particular meaning. There may be a flip side to that emblem or a parallel that represents its opposite, but this idea, one which is very cross-disciplinary and often ranges through literature and art, was incredibly formative for me. This is the stuff my teachers exposed me to when I was 13, 14. I was reading these books because they had read them in school, in college, and they shared them with us. For me, going to university—I went to Johns Hopkins and did a BA/MA in history—it was, on the one hand, a new chapter and transformative, but on the other hand, it was in some ways a continuation of what I had been doing all the way along. Sharon: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like—I've watched your conferences for a long time, and it seems that you focus on art and gems and other things. This idea of maintaining purpose and an emphasis on sustainability seems to be in the last few years. Am I incorrect? Do you just put on a conference when you think it's a really important subject and it's coming to the fore? Lisa: Sustainability is a dicey word when it comes to what exactly that means. At root, it is to survive, but in our thinking, sustainability is linked to responsible practice, which can involve how you source materials, how you make an object, what the circumstances and conditions of that making are. We actually have been interested in that since the first project. It was called “Green,” and it was in 2008. The reason that happened was there was an increasing concern with what was then called sustainability, which was often associated with the color green. We had something I definitely want to revive, which is a conference of 20 years of looking at fashion jewels, the zeitgeist of culture, photography, literature, etc. This term sustainability was being used, green was being used, and one of the things I didn't want to do was a superficial one-off. So, we decided that for the 10th year—I think it was the 10th year—of that conference, we would do something called “Green: Sustainability, Significance, and Style.” In that conference we looked at color, of course; we even looked at green diamonds, but we also looked at coral and organic material that's made into jewelry. The issues pertaining to coral were at peak interest at that point, and we did quite a lot in that conference with gold. That was the first time I worked with Toby Pomeroy, with whom I've been fortunate enough to be both friends and colleagues since then. At that point, Toby had done something that was then radical, which was to approach the refiner Hoover & Strong to see if it could be demonstrated that the materials, the scrap, that he came in with was the only material that was in the batch that was refined and that it remained segregated from everything else. That was what you might call an exploration in chain of custody, in the sense that he had a sense of origin of these materials and he wanted to ensure that he could attest to their integrity. Hoover & Strong met the challenge. At that point, Toby was making quite a lot of jewelry, and there was a term that was being used called Eco Loops. Toby has since gone on to do remarkable work with regard to mercury elimination, and he will be involved in the conference, “Maintaining Purpose,” that we are doing. With “Maintaining Purpose”—and actually with the “Green” conference, we had Mike Kowalski, who was then the chair of Tiffany, involved in the conference. There was a great deal of focus on things like land reclamation and after-mining and that sort of thing. Having said that, one thing I'd like to stress is that one of our speakers, who at that point was the head of Bono's RED, got up and said, “I know you're all wondering, ‘What's a red person doing at a green conference?'” I felt as if I had been hit over the head with pipe, because I had never thought about environmental sustainability or integrity as being isolated from social condition and well-being. Now, when you look at the 17 SDG, you'll see so many different issues broken out, but one of the things I thought was, “Gosh, we've got to do red now,” because this is a split I wasn't thinking about or perceiving. Green and red basically led to the creation of a conference. Our initial thinking was to do a conference that would look at precious substances. We did a coral conference; we did a diamond conference, which we were very privileged to do. We had wonderful support from Sally Morrison for that project. Then I woke up and realized we had never done gold, so effectively what happened is that the conference on precious substances became the Gold Conference. The Gold Conference is now entering its 13th year. We broadened gold to include gold and diamonds because we wanted to draw people's attention to stores of value, which these materials are, and also comparative approaches to things like mining, whether it's formalized or otherwise. And also because, of course, metal and stone go together. That's not to say we do not explore and include focus on other stones. We're very proud that Cruzeiro Mines, which is a tourmaline and rubellite mine from Brazil that has exemplary practices and absolutely beautiful stones, is participating in this year's conference. But the way the Gold and Diamond Conference evolved was it came to use jewelry as a lens for a 360-degree approach to the life and the issues associated with the material in question. On the one hand, you have great artistry, like Giovanni Corvaja. We were privileged to have Daniel Brush speak, whose loss I feel keenly. Every year we welcome wonderful jewelers. At the same time, we think about the issues related to extracting material or recycling material and what those words mean. What is recycling? We have repurposed since the dawn of time, so what gives something that halo of recycling? Do we have to think about what we're using? And, of course, jewelry is a created object. What are the environmental ramifications of extracting, creating the jewelry business writ large? Often in our heads, we think about jewelry and we see a craftsperson, a maker. That aspect of things is very dear to our hearts, and we're keenly interested in artisanry. At the same time, you have other aspects to this jewelry industry, large corporations that produce for particular market segments. You have the luxe maison. In some ways, they're all compatriots in a world, in other ways competitors in a world, and yet bound together by a common concern for ensuring that this world we have continues. Without this world, without this air, without this earth, we are nothing. We can't make anything. We have effaced ourselves. I think there is a point of critical mass that's been reached where there is a deep and general concern. One of the things I fear and that I hope I can help with is building community to encourage people to keep going forward despite the fears that we may have about doing something a different way. Last year our conference was “Boldly Building the Future.” How do you boldly build the future? We have many declarations that have been stated about gold, for example. There was a declaration drafted and shepherded through for the gold industry by LBMA and the World Gold Council. They have principles. Principles are not blueprints. How do you get from that vision, the abstract vision, to its implementation? How do you transform? We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.

What you'll learn in this episode:   What jewelry can tell us about the aesthetics and values of a particular era. Why sustainability in the jewelry industry is essential, and why the definition of “sustainable” is much broader than we might think. Why maintaining purpose is the key to making our world and our creative work better. Why the term “ethical jewelry” is less about materials and more about our choices as consumers and makers. How Lisa decides which topics deserve attention at Initiatives in Art and Culture's conferences.   About Lisa Koenigsberg   Lisa Koenigsberg is President and Founder, Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC) and an internationally recognized thought-leader in visual culture. Koenigsberg's work is characterized by commitment to authenticity, artisanry, materials, sustainability, and responsible practice. Over 20 years ago, she established IAC's multi-disciplinary conference series on visual culture and has since been responsible for launching its web-based webinars and other offerings. She has held leadership positions at NYU where she also served on the faculty, at several major museums, and at the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission.   Koenigsberg's writings have appeared in such books as The Art of Collecting (ed. D. Jensen), Auspicious Vision: Edward Wales Root and American Modernism, Architecture: A Place for Women (eds. E. P. Berkeley and M. McQuaid), The Gilded Edge: The Art of the Frame (ed. E. Wilner), in journals such as Gems and Jewellery (the publication of the Gemmological Association of Great Britain), American Art Journal, Proceedings of the American Antiquarian Society, and Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians, as well as in magazines and in Trendvision's Trendbook.   A frequent speaker, she has also organized symposia and special sessions at universities, museums, and professional organizations throughout the US and abroad, including at the State Art Collections of Dresden, NYU, City University Graduate Center, the Smithsonian Institution, the Norton Museum of Art, and the United Nations, and has organized and chaired sessions at the American Association of Museums, the Goldsmiths Company (London), the Society of Architectural Historians, Yale University Art Gallery, the Aspen Institute, and the Jewelry Industry Summit and at JCK.   She holds graduate degrees from The Johns Hopkins University and from Yale University from which she received her PhD. She is president of the Board of the Morris–Jumel Museum, a trustee of Glessner House in Chicago, and is a member of the Advisory Board of Ethical Metalsmiths and of the board of the NY Silver Society.   Additional Resources: Initiatives in Art and Culture Instagram Initiatives in Art and Culture Facebook Initiatives in Art and Culture Linkedin Initiatives in Art and Culture Linktr.ee Lisa Koenigsberg Linkedin   Photos are available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript:   What is sustainable jewelry? According to Lisa Koenigsberg, it's about much more than the materials used. As founder of Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC), Lisa has organized dozens of conferences to encourage people to explore sustainability, stores of value, visual culture and more, all through the lens of jewelry. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what visual culture is and why it's significant; what it means for makers and jewelry professionals to maintain purpose; and what we can expect from IAC's upcoming conferences. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    Today, my guest is Lisa Koenigsberg speaking to us from New York and environs back east. She is the founder of Initiatives in Art and Culture, which is focused on a number of issues such as women in western art. There's also a conference, which I just noticed, on arts and crafts in the art world. She is an internationally recognized authority on material culture. This July, she is chairing an important conference called “Maintaining Purpose” with a focus on how to make something we all love, jewelry. We'll learn more about her jewelry journey today and hear more about the conference. I didn't go into all the details of the conference and her background because it would take too long. Lisa, welcome to the program.   Lisa: Thank you. It's so nice to be here.   Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey. Were you a jeweler? Were you educated as a jeweler?   Lisa: No, I am not a jeweler. I am the child of two people who are very object-driven and, of course, a mother with extraordinary taste. But in terms of how you might say I studied jewelry, jewelry was part of what we looked at when thinking about—a term I find not felicitous, but I'll use it for the moment—decorative arts, so fitting into the range of the useful and the beautiful. Silver, for example. Jewelry certainly had a space there, and that was the earliest point for me that was non-life-driven.    One of the great blessings that happened to me was that I did my graduate work at Yale. That was when the arts and crafts movement wasn't codified in the same way it is now. We sat around and talked about it in the back room of the American Arts office. There were objects there, and we had the opportunity to hold, see, explore. At the time, I also used to wash silver and jewelry for an extraordinary dealer who wrote a wonderful book, Rosalie Roberian. One of the things that did was give me a sense of weight, dimension, proportion, of engaging closely with materiality. Although the arts and crafts is one dimension, I think that illustrates well one of the things that has been so important for me, which is looking for the opportunity to hold, the opportunity to talk with makers. For example, every year, The Goldsmiths' Company in the U.K. does something called the Goldsmiths' Fair. At the Goldsmiths' Fair, there is one week with 67 or so makers. During that time, you can go and speak with any of the makers, explore the work in your hand, look closely at it. I think the journey of looking is probably one of the most important things.    I've been interested in jewelry as a manifestation of the aesthetic of any era for a very long time as well. My background and training are cross-disciplinary. I'm an American studies person. For me, one of the things I always look for is what we are seeing as characteristic of an age, for example. I see jewelry as very much a part of the tangible expressions of an era. For example, if you're talking about a brooch, you can be working on a sculpture for the body, similarly with neckwear. It's one of the most intriguing forms of expression there is. Making jewelry, the impulse to craft out of whatever the culture sees as precious material, is one of the innate impulses we have, along with the urge to adorn.    If you step back and think about it, jewelry is intertwined with so many events of state, events of faith, events of heart. The Pope, for example, wears the Fisherman's Ring, and at the passing of each Pope, that ring is shattered; a new ring is made. We're all currently fixated on the crown jewels as Charles' coronation comes up. All of that is actually jewelry. It's jewelry indicative of state, of lineage, obviously of aesthetics. The band that many of us wear on one left or right ring finger, as simple or as elaborate as it may be, that is jewelry. It's a signifier. It's also invested with tremendous emotion.    Jewelry plays an enormously powerful role in culture. It's another kind of historical document. So, if we look at jewelry, we can learn things. For example, you can explore the kinds of ornament it was thought only men wore, but by actually going back and looking, as it was done in the exhibition “Golden Kingdoms,” you can see that women also wore certain kinds of major ceremonial ornament. You can learn from the inscriptions. You can learn about stylistic transmission from the aesthetics.    One of the things we don't think about so much is what we leave behind. When we go and look at how we have explored previous cultures, past cultures, one of the things we see is that the documents are often what have been termed luxury arts. They are art that are made of objects that are deemed precious within a culture. They demonstrate a certain egis over resources and talent, but they also serve as documents of that culture. They tell us things about religion, about aesthetics, about faith, about ritual. We need to be thinking about that with regard to jewelry in our own age as well. What are we leaving behind?   Sharon: You cover so many things in Initiatives in Art and Culture. You talk about gems and sustainability and art. It's so many things. How did you start this, and what is the conference about?   Lisa: I founded Initiatives in Art and Culture in 2004. One of the reasons it was started is because I had developed a series of conferences that had, at their core, a concern for visual culture. What does visual culture tell you? Because there is much to be learned about materiality. What's it made of? How do we get those materials? And that opens the door to discussing sustainability. Then, what's done with those materials? What are the forms? What are the means of expression, whether it's three-dimensional, such as a ring, or two-dimensional, except that it really has a third dimension, however subtle it may be. So, within the category of good, better or best, what differentiates an object from another? Then taking it a step further, what does that object mean in terms of the way we use it, in terms of its place in society, in terms of what it says? Beyond that, how is it linked to the time, or does it presage the future in some way? I'm sure I've left out some foci related to political and social concerns, but it's that wholeness that is inherent in visual culture. That is the focus of what IAC does. We have deep commitment to artistry and materials as well as a commitment to responsible practice.   Sharon: Several questions. Were you always interested in all of this, or is it something your professors taught you and you learned as you read? It's not the way I would look at something. I think it's really interesting. How did you start looking at this?   Lisa: I was born into a family that was and remains very visually engaged and involved with art, very involved with looking. Well before I had what one might think of as a professor, I had my parents, who in effect included me in their world of looking from moment one. My experience of art, of objects, has been part of my life since the very beginning. For us, a shared experience was very often looking, whether it was going to an exhibition or a trip planned specifically to see certain things. This was very much part of my world, or the world I was lucky enough to be born into. That included the people that were friends of my parents, and that included curators and collectors and people who were very engaged in the world of looking. My mother herself is a very well-recognized either fiber artist or artist who does sculpture using wire to explore grid and void. I say that to avoid the nomenclature wars.    I was very lucky to have some extraordinary teachers, but one of the best teachers I had was in high school. We reenacted the Ruskin Whistler trial. I was the attorney for Ruskin, so I had to know all about each one of the witnesses, each one of the people who appeared and testified in the trial, and that made art come alive in a way that was exceptional. Another thing was that during those years, there was something called the myth and image school. It's the idea that an era has emblems that are representative, that are invested with particular meaning. There may be a flip side to that emblem or a parallel that represents its opposite, but this idea, one which is very cross-disciplinary and often ranges through literature and art, was incredibly formative for me. This is the stuff my teachers exposed me to when I was 13, 14. I was reading these books because they had read them in school, in college, and they shared them with us. For me, going to university—I went to Johns Hopkins and did a BA/MA in history—it was, on the one hand, a new chapter and transformative, but on the other hand, it was in some ways a continuation of what I had been doing all the way along.    Sharon: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like—I've watched your conferences for a long time, and it seems that you focus on art and gems and other things. This idea of maintaining purpose and an emphasis on sustainability seems to be in the last few years. Am I incorrect? Do you just put on a conference when you think it's a really important subject and it's coming to the fore?   Lisa: Sustainability is a dicey word when it comes to what exactly that means. At root, it is to survive, but in our thinking, sustainability is linked to responsible practice, which can involve how you source materials, how you make an object, what the circumstances and conditions of that making are. We actually have been interested in that since the first project. It was called “Green,” and it was in 2008. The reason that happened was there was an increasing concern with what was then called sustainability, which was often associated with the color green. We had something I definitely want to revive, which is a conference of 20 years of looking at fashion jewels, the zeitgeist of culture, photography, literature, etc. This term sustainability was being used, green was being used, and one of the things I didn't want to do was a superficial one-off.    So, we decided that for the 10th year—I think it was the 10th year—of that conference, we would do something called “Green: Sustainability, Significance, and Style.” In that conference we looked at color, of course; we even looked at green diamonds, but we also looked at coral and organic material that's made into jewelry. The issues pertaining to coral were at peak interest at that point, and we did quite a lot in that conference with gold.    That was the first time I worked with Toby Pomeroy, with whom I've been fortunate enough to be both friends and colleagues since then. At that point, Toby had done something that was then radical, which was to approach the refiner Hoover & Strong to see if it could be demonstrated that the materials, the scrap, that he came in with was the only material that was in the batch that was refined and that it remained segregated from everything else. That was what you might call an exploration in chain of custody, in the sense that he had a sense of origin of these materials and he wanted to ensure that he could attest to their integrity. Hoover & Strong met the challenge. At that point, Toby was making quite a lot of jewelry, and there was a term that was being used called Eco Loops. Toby has since gone on to do remarkable work with regard to mercury elimination, and he will be involved in the conference, “Maintaining Purpose,” that we are doing.    With “Maintaining Purpose”—and actually with the “Green” conference, we had Mike Kowalski, who was then the chair of Tiffany, involved in the conference. There was a great deal of focus on things like land reclamation and after-mining and that sort of thing. Having said that, one thing I'd like to stress is that one of our speakers, who at that point was the head of Bono's RED, got up and said, “I know you're all wondering, ‘What's a red person doing at a green conference?'” I felt as if I had been hit over the head with pipe, because I had never thought about environmental sustainability or integrity as being isolated from social condition and well-being. Now, when you look at the 17 SDG, you'll see so many different issues broken out, but one of the things I thought was, “Gosh, we've got to do red now,” because this is a split I wasn't thinking about or perceiving. Green and red basically led to the creation of a conference.    Our initial thinking was to do a conference that would look at precious substances. We did a coral conference; we did a diamond conference, which we were very privileged to do. We had wonderful support from Sally Morrison for that project. Then I woke up and realized we had never done gold, so effectively what happened is that the conference on precious substances became the Gold Conference. The Gold Conference is now entering its 13th year. We broadened gold to include gold and diamonds because we wanted to draw people's attention to stores of value, which these materials are, and also comparative approaches to things like mining, whether it's formalized or otherwise. And also because, of course, metal and stone go together. That's not to say we do not explore and include focus on other stones. We're very proud that Cruzeiro Mines, which is a tourmaline and rubellite mine from Brazil that has exemplary practices and absolutely beautiful stones, is participating in this year's conference.    But the way the Gold and Diamond Conference evolved was it came to use jewelry as a lens for a 360-degree approach to the life and the issues associated with the material in question. On the one hand, you have great artistry, like Giovanni Corvaja. We were privileged to have Daniel Brush speak, whose loss I feel keenly. Every year we welcome wonderful jewelers. At the same time, we think about the issues related to extracting material or recycling material and what those words mean. What is recycling? We have repurposed since the dawn of time, so what gives something that halo of recycling? Do we have to think about what we're using? And, of course, jewelry is a created object. What are the environmental ramifications of extracting, creating the jewelry business writ large? Often in our heads, we think about jewelry and we see a craftsperson, a maker. That aspect of things is very dear to our hearts, and we're keenly interested in artisanry. At the same time, you have other aspects to this jewelry industry, large corporations that produce for particular market segments. You have the luxe maison.    In some ways, they're all compatriots in a world, in other ways competitors in a world, and yet bound together by a common concern for ensuring that this world we have continues. Without this world, without this air, without this earth, we are nothing. We can't make anything. We have effaced ourselves. I think there is a point of critical mass that's been reached where there is a deep and general concern. One of the things I fear and that I hope I can help with is building community to encourage people to keep going forward despite the fears that we may have about doing something a different way. Last year our conference was “Boldly Building the Future.” How do you boldly build the future? We have many declarations that have been stated about gold, for example. There was a declaration drafted and shepherded through for the gold industry by LBMA and the World Gold Council. They have principles. Principles are not blueprints. How do you get from that vision, the abstract vision, to its implementation? How do you transform?   We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. 

SUMMARY:  In this episode, we talk with Lisa Coyne about ACT For mental compulsions.  Lisa Coyne addressed how to use Acceptance and Commitment therapy for overcoming mental compulsions. We cover how to identify your values using a fun little trick! In This Episode: How to use Acceptance & Commitment Therapy to manage mental compulsions How to practice Willingness in regards to reducing mental rituals and mental rumination  A fun little Value Based tool for identifying your values.  How to be curious instead of thinking in a limited way.  Links To Things I Talk About: Stuff thats Loud Stop Avoiding Stuff  https://www.newenglandocd.org/ ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com.  CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors.  Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two).   EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 287.  Welcome back, everybody. I am so excited. We are at Episode 6 of this six-part series of how to manage mental compulsions. You guys, we could not end this series with anyone better than Dr. Lisa Coyne. I don't know if you've heard of Lisa Coyne. I bet you, you probably have. She is the most wonderful human being.  I have met Lisa, Dr. Lisa Coyne multiple times online, never in person, and just loved her. And this was my first time of actually getting to spend some really precious time with her. And, oh my gosh, my heart exploded like a million times. And you will hear in this episode, you will hear my heart exploding at some point, I'm sure. I am so honored to finish out the six-part series with Lisa. This series, let me just share with you how joyful it has felt to be able to deliver this as a series, as a back-to-back piece of hope. I'm hoping it has been a piece of hope for you in managing something really, really difficult, which is managing mental compulsions. Now, as we finish this series up, I may or may not want to do a recap. I'm not sure yet. I'm going to just see where my heart falls, but I want to just really first, as we move into this final part of the series, to remind you, take what you need. You've been given literally back-to-back some of the best advice I have ever heard in regards to managing mental compulsions. We've got world-renowned experts on this series. You might have either found it so, so educational and so, so helpful while also feeling sometimes a little bit like, “Oh my goodness, there's so many tools, which one do I use?”  And I really want to emphasize to you, as we finish this out, again, so beautiful. What a beautiful ending. I almost feel like crying. As we finish it out, I really want to remind you, take what you need, take what's helpful, or – well, I should say and – try all of them out. Practice with each of the skills and the concepts and the tools. See what happens when you do. Use them as little experiments. Just keep plugging away with these skills and tools. Because number one, they're all evidence-based. I very carefully picked the experts on this series to make sure that we are bringing you evidence-based, really gold standard treatment. So, that's been a priority. Just practice with them. Don't be hard on yourself as you practice them. Remind yourself, this is a long-term journey. These are skills I still practice. I'm sure everyone who's come on the show, they are still practicing them. And so, I really want to send you off with a sense of hope that you get to play around with these. Be playful with them. Some of them will be we've giggled and we've laughed and we've cried. So, I want you to just be gentle as you proceed and you practice and remind yourself this is a process and a journey.  That being said, I am going to take you right into this next part of the six-part series with Dr. Lisa Coyne. This is where we bring it home and boy, does she bring it home. I feel like she beautifully ties it all up in a ribbon. And I hope it has been so helpful for you. Really, I do. I want this to be a resource that you share with other people who are struggling. I want to be a resource that you return to when you're struggling. I want it to be a place where you feel understood and validated. And so, thank you so much for being a part of this amazing series. That being said, let's get over onto the show, and here is Dr. Lisa Coyne. ------ Kimberley: I literally feel like I'm almost in tears because I know this is going to be the last of the series and I'm so excited. I had just said this is going to bring it home. I'm so excited to have Dr. Lisa Coyne. Welcome. Lisa: Thank you. It's so nice to be here with you, Kim. Hi, everyone. What is a Mental Compulsion? Do you call it a Mental Compulsion or a Mental Ritual?  Kimberley: Yes. So, first of all, the question I've asked everybody, and I really am loving the response is, this is a series on managing mental compulsions, but do you call them mental compulsions, mental rituals, rumination? How do you conceptualize this whole concept? Lisa: I would say, it depends on the person and it depends on what they're doing. I call them any number of things. But I think the most important thing, at least for me in how I think about this, is that we come at it from a very behavioral perspective, where we really understand that-- and this is true for probably all humans, but especially so for OCD. I have a little bit of it myself, where I get caught up in the ruminations. But there's a triggering thought. You might call it a trigger like a recurrent intrusive thought that pops up or antecedent is another word that we think of when we think of behavior analysis. But after that thought comes up, what happens is the person engages in an on-purpose thing, whatever it is that they do in their mind. It could be replacing it with a good thought. It could be an argument with yourself. It could be, “I just need to go over it one more time.” It could be, “I'm going to worry about this so I can solve it in advance.” And that part is the part that we think of as the compulsion. So, it's a thing we're doing on purpose in our minds to somehow give us some relief or safety from that initial thought.  Now the tricky part is this. It doesn't always feel like it's something we're doing on purpose. It might feel so second nature that it too feels automatic. So, part of, I think, the work is really noticing, what does it feel like when you're engaging in this activity? So, for me, if I'm worrying about something, and worry is an example of this kind of doing in your mind, it comes with a sense of urgency or tightness or “I just have to figure it out,” or “What if I--” and it's all about reducing uncertainty really.  So, the trick that I do when I notice it in me is I'll be like, “Okay, I'm noticing that urgency, that tension, that distress. What am I up to in my head? Am I solving something? Is that--” and then I'll step back and notice what I'm up to. So, that's one of my little tricks that I teach my clients. Kimberley: I love this. Would you say your predominant modality is acceptance and commitment therapy? What would you say predominantly you-- I mean, I know you're skilled in so many things, but what would you-- Lisa: I would say, it's funny because, yeah, I guess you would. I mean, I'm pretty skilled in that.  I'm an ACT trainer. Although I did start with CBT and I would say that for OCD, I really stick to ERP. I think of it as the heart of the intervention, but we do it within the context of ACT. ACT for Mental Compulsions  Kimberley: Can you tell me what that would look like? I'm just so interested to understand it from that conceptualization. So, you're talking about this idea. We've talked a lot about like, it's how you respond to your thoughts and how you respond and so forth. And then, of course, you respond with ERP. What does ACT look like in that experience? I'd love to hear right from your mouth. Lisa: Okay. All right. So, I'm going to do my best here to just say it and then we'll see if it sounds more like ACT or it sounds more like ERP. And then you'll see what I mean when I say I do both of them. So, when you think about OCD, when you think about anxiety, or even maybe depression where you're stuck in rumination, somebody is having an experience. We call it a private event like feeling, thought, belief that hurts, whatever it is. And what they're doing is everything that they can to get away from that. So, if it's OCD, there's a scary thought or feeling, and then there's a ritual that you do.  So, to fix that, it's all about learning to turn towards and approach that thing that's hard. And there's different ways you can do that. You can do that in a way where you're dialing it in and you're like, “Yeah, I'm going to do the thing,” but you're doing everything that you can to not feel while you're doing that. And I think that's sometimes where people get stuck doing straight-up exposure and response prevention. It's also hard.  When I was a little kid, I was really scared to go off the high dive. I tell my clients and my team the story sometimes where it was like a three-meter dive. And I was that kid where I would be like, “I'm going to do it. All the other kids are doing it.” And I would climb up, I'd walk to the end of the board, freak out, walk back, climb down. And I did this so many times one day, and there's a long line of other kids waiting to get in the water. And they were pissed. So, I got up and I walked out to the end of the board and I was like, “I can't.” And I turned around to go back. And there was my swim coach at the other side of the board with his arms crossed. I was like, “Oh no.” Kimberley: “This is not the way I planned.” How do you apply Acceptance & Commitment Therapy for OCD and Mental Compulsions?  Lisa: And he is like, “No, you're going.” And I went, which was amazing. And sometimes you do need that push. But the point is that it's really hard to get yourself to do those really hard things sometimes when it matters. So, to me, ACT brings two pieces to the table that are really, really important here. You can divide ACT into two sets of processes. There's your acceptance and mindfulness processes, and then there's your commitment and valuing processes, which are the engine of ACT, how do we get there?  So, for the first part, mindfulness is really paying attention on purpose. And if you want to really learn from an exposure, you have to be in your body, you have to be noticing, you have to be willing to allow all of the thoughts and sensations and whatever shows up to show up. And so, ACT is ideal at shaping that skillset for when you're in the exposure. So, that's how we think of it that way.  And then the valuing and commitment is, how do you get yourself off that diving board? There has to be something much more important, bigger, much bigger than your fear to help motivate you for why to do this hard thing. And I think that the valuing piece and really connecting with the things that we most deeply care about is part of what helps with that too. So, I think those two bookends are really, really important. There's other ways to think about it, but those are the two primary ways that we do ERP, but we do it within an ACT framework. Using Values to manage Mental Compulsions Kimberley: Okay. I love this. So, you're talking about we know what we need to do. We know that rumination isn't helpful. We know that it creates pain. We know that it keeps us stuck. And we also know, let's jump to like, we know we have to drop it ultimately. What might be an example of values or commitments that people make specifically for rumination, the solving? Do you have any examples that might be helpful?  Lisa: Yeah. I'm just thinking of-- there's a bunch of them, but for example, let's take, for example, ROCD, relationship OCD. So, let's say someone's in a relationship with a partner and they're not sure if the right partner is. Are they cheating on me? Are they not? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's this like, “But I have to solve if this is the right person or not. Am I going to be safe?” or whatever the particular worry is. And so, one of the things that you can do is once folks notice, they're trying to solve that. Notice, what's the effect of that on your actual relationship? How is that actually working? So, there's this stepping back where an ACT, we would call that diffusion or taking perspective self-as-context, which is another ACT, acceptance, and mindfulness piece. And first of all, notice that. Second of all, pause. Notice what you're up to. Is the intent here to build a strong relationship, or is the intent to make this uncertainty go away? And then choose. Do I want to work on uncertainty or do I want to work on being a loving partner and seeing what happens? Because there's so much we're not in charge of, including what we're thinking and feeling. But we are in charge of what we choose to do. And so, choosing to be present and see where it goes, and embracing that uncertainty. But the joyfulness of it, I think, is really, really important. So, that would be one example.  Kimberley: I love that example. Actually, as you were saying, I was thinking about an experience of my own. When your own fears come up around relationship, even you're ruminating about a conversation or something, you've got to stop and be like, “Is this getting in the way here of the actual thing?” It's so true. Tell me about this joy piece, because it's not very often you hear the word joy in a conversation about mental compulsions. Tell me about it. Lisa: Well, when you start really noticing how this is working, and if you're willing to step back from it, let it be, and stay where you are in that uncertainty, all sorts of new things show up. Stuff you never could have imagined or never could have dreamed. Your whole life could be just popping up all of these possibilities. In that moment you stop engaging with those compulsions, you could go in a hundred different directions if you're willing to let the uncertainty be there. And I think that that's really important.  I want to tell a story, but I have to change the details in my head just for confidentiality. But I'm thinking of a person who I have worked with, who would be stuck and ruminating about, is this the right thing? I could make decisions and how do I-- for example, how do I do this lecture? My slides need to be perfect and ruminating, ruminating, ruminating about how it works. And one day they decided, “Okay, I'm just going to be present and I'm just going to teach.” And they taught with a partner. And the person themself noticed like, “Wow, I felt so much more connected to my students. This was amazing.” And the partner teaching with them was like, “I've never seen you so on. That was amazing.” They contacted this joy and like, “This is what it could be like.” And it's like this freedom shows up for you. And it's something that we think we know. And OCD loves to know, and it loves to tell you, it knows the whole story about everything. And it's more what you get back when you stop doing the compulsions if you really, really choose that. It's so much more than just, “Oh, I'm okay. I noticed that thought.” it's so much more than that. It's like, yes, and you get to do all this amazing stuff.  Kimberley: Right. I mean, it's funny. I always have my clients in my head. When someone says something, I'm imagining my client going, “But like, but like...” What's the buts that are coming? Lisa: And notice that process. But see, that's it. That's your mind, that's their minds jumping back in being like, “See, there it is again.” Kimberley: Yeah. Lisa: And what if we just don't know? Using Curiosity to Stop Mental Compulsions  Kimberley: And this is what I love about this. I agree with you. There have been so many times when I've dropped myself out of-- I call it being heady and I drop into my body and you get this experience of being like, “Wow.” For me, I can get really simple on like, “Isn't it crazy that water is clear?” I can go to that place. “Water is clear. That is incredible.” You know what I mean? It's there to go to that degree. But then, that's the joy in it for me. It's like, “Wow, somebody literally figured out how to make this pen work.” That still blows my mind.  Lisa: I had a moment. I started horseback riding again for the first time in literally-- I've ridden on and off once a year or something, but really riding. And actually, it was taking classes and stuff for the first time in 30 years. And they put me in this class and I didn't know what level it was. I just thought we were just going to walk around and trot and all that stuff. Plus, she starts setting up jumps. And I was like, “Oh my God, this is old body now. This is not going to bounce the way it might have been.” It's what means all these 15-year-olds in the class. Kimberley: Wow. Lisa: I'm third in line and I'm just on the horse absolutely panicking and ruminating like, “Oh my God, am I going to die? Should I do this? What am I going to do? Should I tell her no? But I want it and I don't know what I'm going to--” and my head was just so loud. And so, the two girls in front of me go. And then I look at the teacher and I go, “Are you sure?” It's literally the first time I've ever done in 30 years. She just went-- she just looked at me. And I noticed that my legs squeezed the horse with all of the stuff rolling around in my head. And I went over the jump and it was, I didn't die. It was really messy and terrifying. Oh my God, it was so exciting and joyful. And I was so proud of myself. That's what you get-- Kimberley: And I've heard that from so many clients too.  Lisa: It's so awesome.  Kimberley: I always say it's like base jumping. It's like you've got to jump. And then once you've jumped, you just got to be there. And that is true. There is so much exhilaration and sphere that comes from that. So, I love that. What about those who base jump or squeeze the horse and they're dropping into discomfort that they haven't even experienced before, like 10 out 10 stuff. Can you walk me through-- is it just the same? Is it the same concept? What would you advise there? Lisa: So, I think it's important to notice that when that happens, people are not just experiencing physical sensations and emotions, but it's also whatever their mind is telling them about it. And I think this is another place where ACT is super helpful to just notice, like your mind is saying, this is 10 out of 10. What does that mean to you? That means like, oh my gosh. And just noticing that and holding it lightly while you're in that 10 out of 10 moment, I think, is really, really helpful.  So, for example, I have a really intense fear of heights where I actually freeze. I can't actually move when I'm on the edge of something. And I had a young client who I've worked with for a while. And as an exposure for her, but also for me as her clinician to model, we decided. She wanted me to go rock climbing with her, which is not something I've ever done, ever, and also fear of heights. So, I kept telling myself, “Fear of heights, this is going to suck. This is going to be terrible. This is going to be terrible.” And there was also another part of me interested and curious.  And so, what I would say when you're in that 10 out of 10 moment, you can always be curious. So, when you're like, “Oh my gosh, I'm really scared,” the moment you're unwilling to feel that is the moment it's going to overwhelm you. And if you can notice it as a thought, “I'm having the thought, I don't think I can handle this. I don't think I'm going to survive this,” and notice it and be curious, let's see what happens. And so, for me, I noticed interestingly, even though I'm terrified of heights, I wasn't actually scared at all. And that was a shocker, because I was full sure it was going to be the worst thing ever.  And so, notice the stories your mind tells you about what an experience is going to be and stay curious. You can always be curious. And that's going to be, I think, your number one tool for finding your way through and how to handle those really big, unexpected, and inevitable surprising moments that happen in life that are really scary for all of us. Kimberley: Right. And when you say curious, I'm not trying to get too nitpicky on terms, but for me, curiosity is, let's experiment. I always think of it like life is a science experiment, like let's see if my hypothesis is true about this rock climbing. Is there a way that you explain curiosity? Lisa: Yeah. Well, that's part of it, but it's also part like what you were describing. Isn't water cool? It's more than, is this true or not true? That's so narrow. You want, “No, really? What does this taste like?” And that's the mindfulness piece. Really notice all of it. There's so much. And when you start doing that, you'll find-- even if you do it outside of exposure, for example, as practice, you start to notice that the present moment is a little bit like Hermione's purse in Harry Potter, where you think it's this one thing, and then when you start to expand your awareness, you notice there's tons of cool stuff. So, in these big, scary moments, what you might see is a sense of purpose or a sense of, “Holy crap, I'm handling this and I didn't think I could. Wow, this is amazing,” or “I'm really terrified. Oh my gosh, my nose itches.” It could be anything at all.  But the bottom line is, our bodies were meant to feel and they were meant to experience all the emotions. And so, there is no amount of emotion or fear or anything that we are not built to handle. Emotions are information. And to stay in the storm when it's such a big storm, when OCD is ramping you up, it teaches the OCD, “Actually, I guess I get to stand down here eventually, I guess I don't need to freak out about this so much. Huh, interesting. I had no idea.” I don't know if that's helpful or not.   Kimberley: No, it's so helpful. It is so helpful because I think if you have practiced curiosity, it makes sense. But for someone who maybe has been in mental compulsions for so long, they haven't really strengthened that curiosity muscle. Mindfulness for Mental Compulsions Lisa: That's so true. So, start small. Don't start in the storm. Start with waking up in the morning and noticing before you open your eyes, what do you hear? How do the covers feel? Do you hear the birds outside your window? Start with that. And start in little moments, just practicing during the day. Start a conversation with someone you care about, and notice what your mind is saying in response to them, what it's like to notice their face. Start small, build it up, and then start practicing with little tiny, other kinds of discomfort. Sometimes we'll tell people like impatience. When you're waiting in line or in hunger or tiredness, any of those, to just bring your full awareness to that and be like, “What is it like inside this moment right now?” And then you can extend that to, “Okay. So, what if we choose to approach this scary thing? What if we choose to just for a few seconds, notice what it feels like in this uncertain space?” And that's how you might begin to bring it to rumination, be curious about what was the triggering thought. And then before you start ruminating or before you start doing mental rituals, just notice the first thought, and then you don't have to answer that question. And there's different ways to handle that, but curiosity is the beginning. And then stopping the compulsion is ultimately, or undoing it or undermining it in some way is going to be the other important piece. Kimberley: I'd love to hear more about commitment. I always loved-- when I have multiple clients, we joke about this all the time. They'll say, “I had these mental compulsions and you would be so proud. I was so proud. I was able to catch it and pull myself back into the present. And yes, it was such a win. And then I had another thought and you'd be so proud of me. I did the same thing. And then I had another thought and...” Lisa: You're like, “Was that the show that you just did right there?” It's sneaky, huh. Kimberley: And so, I'd love to hear what you're-- and maybe bring it from an ACT perspective or however you would. It's like you're chugging away. “I'm doing good. Look at me go.” But OCD can be so persistent. Lisa: It's so tricky.  Kimberley: And so, is that the commitment piece, do you think? What is that? How would you address that?  Lisa: So, if I'm getting your question right, you're asking about, what do we do when OCD hijacks something that you should do and turns it into a ritual? Is that what you're asking?  Kimberley: Yes. Or it just is OCD turns up the volume as like, “No, no, no, no. You are going to have to tend to me or I'm not going to stop,” kind of thing. Lisa: Yes. That is a commitment piece. And it's funny because there's different ways that I think about this, but it's almost like a little child who has a tantrum. If you keep saying yes, every time they make the tantrum bigger, it's going to end up being a pretty big tantrum. And OCD loves nothing more than a good tantrum. Kimberley: So true. Lisa: And so, the thing you have to do is plan for that and go, “Yeah, it's going to get loud. Yeah, it's going to say whatever it needs to say, and it's going to say the worst thing I can think of.” And I have had my clients call this all sorts of different things like first-order thoughts, second-order thoughts, just different variations on the theme where it's going to ramp up to hook you in. And so, really staying very mindful of that and making a promise to yourself.  One of my clients who helped us a lot in teaching but also in writing stuff that's loud, Ethan, I think said it in this really elegant way. He said, make a promise to yourself. That really matters, even if it's small. It doesn't matter how big it is. But one of his first ones was, under no circumstances, am I going to do X the compulsion? And keep that promise to yourself because if you-- anybody who ever woke up and didn't want to get out of the bed in the morning because, “Ah, too tired, it's too early. I don't really want to go to the gym.” If you know you're in that conversation with yourself about, “Well, maybe just one more minute,” you've already lost. And so, this is a good place again for that ACT piece of diffusion. Noticing your mind or your OCD or your anxiety is pulling you into, “Ah, let's just see if we can string you along here.” And so, what needs to happen is just move your feet and put them on the floor. Don't get into that conversation with yourself. And having that commitment piece, that promise to myself with the added value piece, that really matters. And one other thing that's sometimes helpful that I have-- I'll use this myself, but I also teach my clients, remembering this question: If this is a step towards whatever it is that's really important, am I willing to allow myself to feel these things? Am I willing? And remembering that as a cue. We're not here. It's never about this one exposure. It's about, this is a step towards this other life that you are fighting for. And every single step is an investment in that other life where you're getting closer and you're making it more possible, and just remembering that. I think that that's a really important piece. A Values Tool YOU NEED!  Kimberley: Yeah. It actually perfectly answered the question I had, which is, you're making a commitment, but what to? And it is that long-term version of you that you're moving towards or the value that you want to be living by. Would you suggest-- and I've done a little bit of work on the podcast about values. Maybe one day we can have you back on and you can share more about that, but would you suggest people pick one value, three values? How might someone-- of course, we all have these values and sometimes OCD can take things from us, or anxiety can take those things from us. How would you encourage someone to move in that direction? Lisa: Well, actually, do you want to do a fun thing? Kimberley: I do. Lisa: Okay. So, let's do-- Kimberley: I never would say no to that. I would love to. I'm really curious about this fun thing. Lisa: All right. So, do you like coffee or are you a tea person or neither? Kimberley: Let's go tea. I'm an Australian. If I didn't say tea, I would be a terrible Aussie.  Lisa: They'll kick you off. All right. So, Kim, think about in your life a perfect cup of tea, not just a taste, but a moment with someone maybe you cared about or somewhere that was beautiful or after something big or before something big, or just think about what was a really, really amazing important cup of tea that you've had in your life. Kimberley: Oh, it's so easy. Do I tell you out loud?  Lisa: Yeah. If you want to, that'd be great.  Kimberley: I'll paint you guys a picture. So, I live in America, but my parents live in Australia and they have this beautiful house on a huge ranch. I grew up on a farm. And we're sitting at their bay window and you're overlooking green. It's just rolling hills. And my mom is on my left and my dad is on my right. And it's like milky and there's cookies. Well, they call them biscuits. So, yeah. That's my happy place right there. Lisa: And I could see it in your face when you're talking about it. So, where do you-- does that tell you something about what's really important to you?  Kimberley: Yes. Lisa: What does it tell you? Kimberley: Family and pleasure and just savoring goodness, just slowing down. It's not about winning a race, it's just about this savoring. And I think there's a lot-- maybe something there that I think is important is the green, the nature, the calm of that. Lisa: Yeah. So, as you talk about that, what are you noticing feeling? Kimberley: Oh my God, my heart just exploded 12 times. My heart is filled. That was the funnest thing I've ever done in my whole life. Funnest is not a word. Lisa: What if you could build your life around moments like that? Would that be a well of life for you? Kimberley: I think about that nearly every time I make tea, actually. Lisa: That's how you would help your clients, and that's one way to think about values. Kimberley: Wow. That is so cool. I feel like you just did a spell on me or something. Lisa: You just connected with the stuff that's really important. So, when you think about if I had a hard thing to do, what if it was a step towards more of that in your life? Kimberley: Yeah. Lisa: You see?  Kimberley: It's so powerful. I've never thought that. Oh my God, that was gold. And so, that's the example. Everyone would use that, coffee or tea. Lisa: There you go. Just think about it. And it's funny because we came up with this in our team, maybe three months ago. We keep piloting just new little values exercise, but it's so funny how compelling it is. just thinking about-- gosh. Anyway, I could tell you about mine, but you get the point.  Kimberley: And you know what's so funny too and I will say, and this is completely off topic, there's a social media person that I follow on Instagram. And every time she does a live-- and for some reason, it's so funny that you mentioned this, I love what she talks about, but to be honest, I'm not there to watch her talk. The thing that I love the most is that she starts every live with a new tea and she'll pause the water in front of you. It's like a mindfulness exercise for me. To be honest, I find myself watching to see whether she's making tea. Not that this is about tea, but I think there's something very mindful about those things that where we slow down-- and the water example, she's pouring it and she's watching the tea. And for some reason, it's like a little mini-break in the day for me.  Lisa: I totally agree. It's like the whole sky, the cloud, and the tea and the-- Kimberley: Like Thich Nhat Hanh. Lisa: Yes. I can't remember the quote, but exactly.  Kimberley: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I love that example. So good. Well actually, if you don't mind, can you tell us your tea? Because I just would love to see if there's a variation. So, what would yours be? Lisa: It was funny because I think I did coffee the first time I did this, but then recently I just did a workshop in Virginia and I was like, “Oh my gosh, tea.” And what came to mind was, when I took my 17-year-old daughter tracking in the Himalayas to Nepal, because I wanted her. She was graduating from high school and I wanted to show her that you could do anything and she really wanted to go. We both really wanted to go to Ever Space Camp. And every morning after trekking nine, 10, 11 hours a day where you're freezing cold, you're exhausted, everything's hurting, and it's also amazing and beautiful, the guides would knock at our door and there would be two of them. And one of them would have a tray of little metal cups. And then the other one would say, “Tea? Sugar? Would you like sugar?” And they would make you, they would bring you, and this was how you woke up every morning, a steaming cup of tea. Sometimes the rooms were 20 below zero. And you'd get out of bed and you'd be so grateful for that warm cup of tea. And that was the tea I remembered. Kimberley: Right. And then the values you pulled from that would be what? Lisa: That moment, it was about being with my daughter and it was about showing her, modeling courage and modeling willingness and just adventure and this love of being in nature and taking a journey and seeing, “Could we do this? And what would it be like?” And just sharing the experience with her. It's just beautiful. And the tea is right in the center of that. So, it's almost not even about the tea, but it's that moment. It's that time and that experience. So amazing. Kimberley: So amazing. Thank you. I'm deeply grateful. That just filled my heart.  Lisa: I'm so glad. I feel so honored that you have had experience. I love that so much. Kimberley: I did. I always tell my clients or my kids or whoever is at-- when I was a kid, my mom, every afternoon when I came home from school, she'd say, “What's the one thing you learn at school today?” And so still, there's always one thing I learn and I always note it like that's the one thing I learned today and that was it. What an amazing moment.  Lisa: I'm so glad.  Kimberley: Okay. I love this. So, we've talked about mindfulness and we've talked about commitment. We've talked about values and we have talked about the acceptance piece, but if we could have just one more question around the acceptance piece. How does that fit into this model? I'm wondering.  Lisa: It's funny because I always feel like that acceptance piece, the word, it means to so many people, I think, tolerance or coping or let's just make this okay. And it doesn't mean any of those things. And so, I've moved more into thinking of it and describing it as, it's like a willingness. What is under the hood of acceptance and am I willing? Because you cannot like something and not want something and also be willing to allow it. And it's almost like this-- again, it involves curiosity about it. It involves squeeze the horse with all the stuff. Get the feet on the floor, even though you're having an argument that's in your head. And so, sometimes people think about it as a feeling and sometimes it is, but a lot of times, it's willingness with your feet. When you think about moms and infants in the middle of the night, I don't think there was ever a moment when I was like, “Oh yeah, the baby's crying at 4:00 in the morning. I'm so excited to get up.” I'm feeling in my heart, no. It's like you're exhausted and it's like the last thing you want to do and 100% you're willing to do it. You choose. And so, that's the difference. And so, I think people get tangled up, not just thinking of it as tolerance, but also waiting for a feeling of willingness to happen. And that's not it. It's a choice. Kimberley: It's gold. Lisa: Yeah, seriously. I mean, it's the same thing. I learn it every day. Trust me, when I fall out of my gym routine or my running routine and I'm off the willingness, and then I'm like, “Yeah, that's not it.” And I have to come back to it. So, it's something we all struggle with. And I think that's really important to know too, but ultimately, it's a choice, not a feeling. Kimberley: Okay. That was perfect. And I'm so happy. Thank you, number one. This is just beautiful for me and I'm sure the gifts just keep going and flowing from this conversation. So, thank you.  Lisa: Thank you for having me. Kimberley: Tell me where people can hear more about you and know your work? Lisa: Well, we're at the New England Center for OCD and Anxiety in Boston. We have recently opened in New York City and in Ireland. So, if anybody is in Ireland, call us, look us up. Kimberley: Wow. Lisa: Yeah. That's been really fun. And there's a few books we have. There's Stuff That's Loud written by Ben Sedley and myself. There's our newest book called Stop Avoiding Stuff with Matt Boone and Jen Gregg. And that's a fun little book. If anybody's interested in learning about ACT, it's really written-- the chapters are each standalone and they're written so that you could read them in about two minutes, and that was on purpose. We wanted something that was really pocket-sized and really simple with actionable skills that you could use right away. And then I have a new book coming out actually really soon. And no one knows this. Actually, I'm announcing this on your show. And I am writing it with my colleague, Sarah Cassidy-O'Connor in Ireland. We are just doing the art for it now and it's a book on ACT for kids with anxiety and OCD.  Kimberley: When is this out? Lisa: Good question. I want to say within the year, but I don't remember when. Kimberley: That's okay.  Lisa: But look for it and check out our website and check out Stuff That's Loud website. We'll post it there and let folks know. But yeah, we're really excited about it. And it'll be published by a UK publisher. So, it's really cute. So, I think the language will be much more like Australia, UK, Ireland for the US, which is really fun because I have a connection to Ireland too. But anyway, there you go.  Kimberley: It's so exciting. Congratulations. So needed. It's funny because I just had a consultation with one of my staff and we were talking about books for kids. And there are some great ones, but this ACT work, I think as I keep saying, there's skills for life.  Lisa: It really is. Kimberley: So important. How many times I've taught my child, even not related to anxiety, just the ACT skill, it's been so important. Lisa: Yeah. Mine too. I think they're so helpful. They were just really helpful with flexibility in so many different areas. Kimberley: Right. I agree. Okay. This is wonderful. Thank you for being on. Like I said, you brought it home.  Lisa: We'll have our cups of tea now. Kimberley: We will Lisa: So nice to talk to you, Kim.  Kimberley: Thank you. Lisa: Thank you.

What you'll learn in this episode: The history of Sculpture to Wear and how Lisa maintains its legacy Why editorial and media coverage is crucial for getting art jewelry recognized as a fine art What the role of a jewelry gallery is Why Lisa always advises artists to keep good records of their work How the bold brooches of the 80s paved the way for today's art jewelry About Lisa M. Berman Lisa M. Berman is an internationally recognized “Ambassador of Wearable Art.” Based in Southern California, her expertise extends to major manufacturing and retail markets, museums and corporations in the United States, Canada, Mexico, Asia and Europe. Lisa is the owner of the iconic gallery Sculpture to Wear, which was instrumental in launching the studio jewelry movement in the United States. The gallery offers an eclectic array of art, jewelry and unique objects to discerning collectors, media producers and institutions, which have been featured in film, television and publications. Her recently launched Berman Arts Agency offers artist representation, career management, corporate acquisition, sponsorship advisement, museum placement, exhibition curation and education services on the disciplines of fine art, jewelry, design and fashion. Lisa holds degrees in Plastics Manufacturing Technology from California State University Long Beach, Product & Jewelry Design from Otis College of Art & Design and Merchandising/Marketing from Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising (FIDM). She has served on the Board of Governors for OTIS College of Art & Design; as Public Relations Chair for the Textile and Costume Council at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA); and on the Museum Collection Board at FIDM. She volunteers for Free Arts for Abused Children, STEAM projects and Art & Fashion Councils. Additional Resources: Sculpture To Wear Website Sculpture To Wear Instagram Sculpture To Wear Facebook Berman Arts Agency Instagram Photos: Lisa M. Berman wearing Archival 18k gold plate PEBBLES Necklace by Robert Lee Morris, her own sterling silver pendant by K. Lamberti, Issey Miyake coat and holding a signed ARTWEAR Catalog (RLM). Photo by Daniel Oropeza NUE Magazine Holiday 2020  Model Neva Cole, Photo by Daniel Oropeza  ICE Collar by Greg Orloff, 2018, $15,000 Creative Director / styled by: Lisa M. Berman  NUE Magazine Holiday 2020  Feature article "Powerful Woman of Dissent" from the "Feel the Frill" Exhibition honoring RBG curated by L.M. Berman.  Sculpture: LUX MAXIMUS, Winner of ARTPRIZE 2017 by Daniel Oropeza $350,000.  Model Neva Cole wears Emancipation Collar by 2Roses, 2020, $1,500.  Photo by Daniel Oropeza  Creative Director / styled by: Lisa M. Berman  Cover of IONA Magazine  Model wears Beaded Galaxy by 3 Tribes, from our Timeless Measures Exhibition 2006, curated by Lisa M. Berman & Pamela McNeil  1 year collaboration with women from 3 tribes in Africa - elders teaching the younger generation how to bead.  Cuffs (sterling Silver & Copper) by Tana Action  IONA Magazine  Models wears pieces by Jan Mandel: “REVEALED” Collar $50,000 (worn to the EMMY Television Academy's Governors Ball) and “POIGNET” (French meaning Wrist) $25,000 - both with created from Stainless steel mesh, outlined with 18k gold wire, Citrine, 2001. IONA Magazine  Models wears pieces by Jan Mandel: Earrings - 18k gold & aqamarine (NFS), “TRANSITION” Collar, 18k gold, Onyx, Aquamarine $20,000  and “GOLDEN” Cuff, 18k gold, $10,000, made in 2001. Niche Magazine - TOP RETAILER SPIKED, red collar (Collection of Myra Gassman) & Cuffs on left side by Michelle Ritter  “POIGNET” (French meaning Wrist) $25,000 -  both with created from Stainless steel mesh, outlined with 18k gold wire, Citrine. Bouquet Ring, Stainless steel & garnet by Wendy Gwen Hacker $800 Collaboration with Sculpture To  Wear Designer Gina Pankowski & MOEN Facet manufacturer. Utlilitary into Wearable Art Cover of W Magazine  - January Jones wears LATTICE necklace (oxidized Sterling Silver) by Gina Pankowski, $4,000 And Bridge Bracelet sterling silver by Sergey Jivetin, SOLD in Private Collection    The images below are from a PHOTO shoot based in the music video Rico Mejia Photography Fashion Beauty Celebrity Lifestyle Mobile number: 323-370-0555 https://www.behance.net/ricomejia https://twitter.com/RicoMejiaFoto https://www.instagram.com/ricomejiaphoto/ Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes bResin and Diamond Bangle by Cara Croninger from 24K Show, 1979, $4,000 Citrus Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $650, and Bracelet $300 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry  Vintage Earrings- acrylic, one of a kind by Frank & Anne Vigneri, 1984, $350 Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes by Swinda Reichelt  Resin DROP earrings by Cara Croninger $200 REGINA Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $800 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry for "Feel the Frill" exhibition honoring RBG, curated by L.M. Berman. Bracelet by Genos, NFS in collection of Julie Laughton Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes by Swinda Reichelt  BLUE DROP earrings Teri Brudnak $98 HEDGEHOG Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $850 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry for "Feel the Frill" exhibition honoring RBG, curated by L.M. Berman. Clear CUFF by Cara Croninger, NFS collection of L.M. Berman        Cover of Vogue with Cherize Theron     Transcript: Lisa Berman, owner of art jewelry gallery Sculpture to Wear, has been a figure in the art jewelry world for over 20 years, and she has a wealth of insight to share with fellow jewelry lovers. For her second appearance on the Jewelry Journey Podcast, she talked about how she's maintained relationships with hundreds of designers and collectors over the years, what advice she offers the designers she works with, and why art jewelry is coming into its own as a fine art collected by museums. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Lisa Berman. Although we share the same last name, I'm not related to Lisa; however, over the years she has become a friend and a trusted dealer. Lisa has been a guest on the show before. Today, we'll have a wide-ranging discussion with less of a focus on a particular piece, more talking about her experience in the jewelry and fashion world. Per our practice, the podcast is audio only. We will be posting photos of many of the pieces Lisa mentions today on our website, which is JewelryJourney.com. This is also a two-part podcast, so please keep your eyes open for our second episode which will air later this week. Please make sure you're a member of our jewelry community by subscribing to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. That way you can listen to both episodes hot of the presses, so to speak. With that, I'd like to welcome Lisa to the program.   Sharon: When you say editorial—you talked about editorial versus advertorial—what do you mean?   Lisa: Years ago, we had magazines like W and Vogue and Vanity Fair, and the word advertorial did not exist. You had true editorial, where you were a new designer, you were creating something different, you had a new statement necklace, and they wanted to feature it. By the way, the vernacular “statement jewelry” wasn't in vogue 25 years ago. We talked about it. Now you see something on the cover and people talk about. From a marketing and selling point, it's a statement piece. That's something we were using in studio jewelry decades ago.    Let's see, we were talking about editorial, working with creative directors of publications. You have a timeline that's three months in advance because you didn't have digital. You had film; you had slides; you had all these timelines that were completely different. Then publications changed. They had to find a way to stay afloat, to stay in business, and like any other business they said, “Look, if you buy an ad, we'll promote you in an editorial article.” That's why you have some galleries now charging artists to physically have their work on the walls, which is something we didn't do, of course.   Sharon: That's interesting. Then you have people like me who walk into a gallery—I didn't know a lot—but depending on the gallery, they might pay to have their work on the wall. Having come from public relations, I immediately look at something to see whether they paid for that article or if it was chosen. I think it's important to point out—people might say, “Well, it sounds dated to be talking about all this print stuff,” but that goes immediately online. All the print is immediately online. There may be some things that never make print that are online, but it's important because whatever you see in print is going to be online.    Lisa: Well, I'll tell you why it's important and relevant. It actually goes back to catalogues and museums. I will get to museums in a second. As much as we want to save the planet and save paper and all of that, museums still demand catalogues for their major exhibitions. That's an important part of collecting. An important part of an artist's career is to have that physical catalogue, that tangible item that can be placed on a bookshelf, or talked about, or brought to a dinner party or a lecture series or whatever it may be. That's really important. An editorial and a printed editorial are the same. Obviously, there are more online publications and it's literally just flipping through the images.    For example, we just filmed a music video with Linda Hikel. We used a number of pieces from Sculpture to Wear in the music video. People loved it. They will use it for promotion, but she called me and said, “We want to capitalize on the fact that you brought such extraordinary work to the video. We want to capture those for editorial.” Then she called me and said, “We actually want to take it a step further. We're thinking about a book,” so these are the conversations. Printed materials are not a thing of the past, thankfully; they're an important element of documentation. That's why I tell artists, when I'm on an artist's tour or in their studio or we're having a conversation, “Please, if you're not a good note taker or you're not good about keeping files, literally keep a box on your desk, and anything—a summary or a note or something in regard to that project—keep it in there. This is so important for telling the story for an exhibition in a museum or just a gallery or online show.”   Sharon: Lisa, you mentioned that makers, jewelers, artists don't understand the role of a gallery. They think, “What am I paying you for?” in a sense. Tell us what your response to that is.   Lisa: I no longer have a physical, permanent location, but I do curate exhibitions. I will collaborate with fine art galleries or other locations to host exhibitions within their space. Even if a show is online, you still get the attachment of being in an exhibition that is part of Sculpture to Wear history and legacy. You have the exposure that I bring to that particular artist, whether it be through my website, through the newsletters I send out, through Art Jewelry Forum, through Indelible, which is my new column for older jewels. That's under the umbrella of Artistar Jewels.   Sharon: Artistar Jewels?   Lisa: Artistar Jewels; I'll tell you about that. Also, there's the collector base. A lot of artists think they pick up the phone and it just happens. Well, it does in some instances. It happens because I've cultivated a relationship for five to eight to 10 years. Yes, I can ask for a favor. Yes, I can propose an idea and I will be taken seriously because there's a track record of credibility. That's important for artists to understand. I think a lot of them coming from major schools do understand that. That is something that's part of their curriculum.    Sharon: You mentioned the importance of keeping all your sketches and notes and everything like that because it helps the gallerist tell a story.   Lisa: Right. In my garage, I literally have over two decades of artists' submissions. I know it sounds crazy. I have artists' submissions that were done on slides and then zip drives. I don't even know how I will convert those images, but I was so afraid of throwing away some of the most magnificent images I've ever seen and shown. Then each one of my exhibitions is in chronological order in a binder with the title and if there's any traveling accompanying that exhibition. I think I learned that from my days in the fashion industry, because you had to document, document, document. That has served me well, because if you don't document it, it never happened. So, you've got the documentation of the visuals and the notes and the advertising, and those are really important. Of course, now artists are saving all of that online, but hopefully there's still something tactile to incorporate.   Sharon: It's so important for credibility, whether it's online or not. Ideally, it's legitimizing it. I know for me, when I'm considering a piece of jewelry, if I know the artist has been in this museum or that museum or it's in the writeup, that makes a difference to me. It weighs more in favor of purchasing something, that credibility.   Lisa: Yes, and that's a whole round robin of a conversation. For example, the pieces I placed in LACMA on behalf Lynn Altman—unfortunately, Lynn is deceased. She was one of my favorite and dearest people on the planet. The three pieces that LACMA acquired were actually owned by me first, so it tells me I have a good eye, and it will also tell a collector I have a good eye. I know the process; I know what museums might be interested in. Mostly whatever I thought was interesting or fascinating, that's what I would collect, but it does matter. It plays a role in credibility in the conversation, if I'm going to be working with a client for consulting, either with a one-on-one client, with an artist or with a company or museum. By the way, one of the misnomers with museums and donations is that people think, “Oh, I have these amazing pieces and I want to donate them.” That's a very long process.   Sharon: From what I've heard, it's a challenge.   Lisa: It's a challenge because good museums will only accept pieces they can properly store. Of course, everyone wants them to be on display 100 percent of the time, but you can't do it. That's a conversation as well. You've got museums looking to acquire pieces, but they need funding for it. There's a whole program with their donors and collectors; “How do we buy this?” Then there are pieces they want that are being donated to them, but maybe they're going under renovation. Whatever the story may be, they want to make sure they're going to acquire them and be able to sort them, so that during their downtime another museum doesn't take them. It's really testing out there.   Sharon: When I've heard of collectors who have donated their collections, it sounds like it's been a long process. It's been something that took years before they even decided to do it. They were being wooed, or they would ask the museum, “What should I buy? What would you like to see in the collection?” that sort of thing. It doesn't sound like you just drive up and unload your station wagon.   Lisa: Oh, no.   Sharon: Do people have station wagons anymore?   Lisa: I don't know. They're called SUVs.   Sharon: Yes, SUVs.   Lisa: At least at a reputable location, that is definitely not the case. I think it's a very exciting time because you have people creating these secondary market pieces, people auctioning them, collecting them, and then you have some of the most dynamic makers. What's interesting to me is also the variations of ages from very young, 19 to 20, and then you have some jewelers I've met that were famous. They were architects or sculptors, and they wanted to change direction.    I've also talked to some of them in regards to ageism. They can't apply for certain grants because they're too old for one at 66. There are a lot of new conversations, like how we've had to learn to communicate with this new technology in Zoom. Life throws us curve balls and we go with it, and there are different trends, too. Brooches were so important probably 20 years ago and they still are, but you had it peak with the “Brooching it Diplomatically” book and Madeline Albright. For many years, large-scale collars were important. You have the Susan Lewin book that just came out and the exhibition book about rings. It's exciting. This field is constantly growing, constantly renewing itself, and I'm always inspired by it.    Sharon: I think we had a conversation once where you told me that brooches helped people segue to art jewelry. People could understand those and wear an avant garde brooch before they would wear something in their hair or an earring or something like that.   Lisa: Yes. People won't believe this, but fashion also played a role in that. For example, 25, 30 years ago, you had women entering the workforce—I know I'm going to get backlash on this—but they were wearing these blazers. So, they can't wear a large collar, plus they're downplaying it. They still want to make a nonverbal statement, and the easiest thing is to put a large-scale piece on a lapel. The ideal wall to place a brooch was on a blazer. For example, I'm wearing a Miyake shirt today. You can't put anything heavy through that. These blazers and large-scale shoulders, that was a perfect wall space to wear these pieces. For makers, these are the easiest way for them to literally make sculpture to wear. It was in a format that made sense to them, a smaller-scale sculpture that was on the left shoulder most often, but there are no rules now. Literally everything goes.    I happen to personally enjoy large-scale collars, just because I like to be hands free and my hands are always moving when I'm talking. I don't wear a lot of rings. When I had much shorter hair, I wore giant earrings. Now I don't, but it's all about personal preference. It was also interesting with the gallery. Someone would see a necklace or a piece in a feature editorial in the Los Angeles Times or W or whatever it may be, and they would call and say, “That's the piece I want.” Then, ultimately, they would come to the gallery and try it on, and they thought, “You know what? This just doesn't sit right on me. I want to look at something else,” or we would specifically have the artist there to meet with them and talk with them.   Sharon: You've talked about the fact that relationships are so important. I know what you mean. It's not just a matter of calling up Sally Smith who you've never talked to before and doesn't know you from Adam, versus calling somebody you've worked with or who knows you always bring her great pieces or something interesting. I want people to understand what you do and why they should call you, because you have your fingers in so many different areas.   Lisa: You know what's interesting about your statement, Sharon, is that I do. I am that person who will call anyone. I have the zero-fear factor.   Sharon: That's great.   Lisa: Completely, because the fact is the worst they can say is no. I'm on a phone call and I present the idea. I think it makes sense, otherwise I wouldn't call them or present them with the idea or exhibition or whatever it may be. I literally will pick up the phone, or I have a crazy idea and I will create a way to connect the dots. Most people think, “Oh my gosh! I would have never thought about that.” Often it's thinking about who's in that particular trade industry, how can we possibly get sponsorships, what's a different avenue. Let's think out of the box. We always hear that: let's think out of the box. I like to be creative, and I like communication. I literally will pick up the phone, and I always like to have a conversation.    So many people hide behind this little mouse on their computer or Facebook or Instagram or private messages. I say if we're going to work together or any of this, I have to have a conversation. Let's go on WhatsApp. If you're in a different time zone, a different county—it doesn't matter if they're speaking Latvian and they're mumbling through a translator, you just get their essence. That's really important, especially now with the lack of human interaction. I'm always an advocate for having a conversation because you never know where it's going to lead, that next step, that next unturned stone. You learn so much more when you have the conversation with the person.   Sharon: I always envy you people who have zero fear factor. I don't fall in that category, so I think it's great. Why should people call you today? To curate an exhibition?   Lisa: Thank you. I do a number of things. Obviously, first and foremost, I do represent certain artists' careers on an ongoing basis, whether it's curating exhibitions for their particular body of work. I can also host a show where we would sell work, because that's the fuel that makes the engine go: selling artists' work, curating exhibitions, connecting them to editorial, getting them placement for exposure. I would say 50 percent of what I do is a PR agency. That is the bulk of most of my day. It's writing articles, sending out newsletters, Instagram, Facebook posts, calling institutions or perhaps sponsors who are creating an exhibition, and creating those business alignments to further these ideas. Whenever I'm on Zoom conferences, I'm taking notes. Editorial, promotional, selling—it's like an ad agency as well.   Sharon: And when you say artists, that's bench jewelers, retailers, makers and fine artists.   Lisa: Yes, now I have branched out with the Berman Art Agency. That umbrella encompasses the very few select sculptors and photographers I've worked with throughout the years. For example, Bonnie Schiffman, she's a very well-known, iconic photographer in 16 museums worldwide. She came to me to make a commission piece in a gallery with Claudia Endler. That was an heirloom piece, and she wears it every day. Now we have this relationship where I'm working with her photographs. We've done shows throughout LA. I picked up the phone and created a museum exhibition for her back east. Some of these artists have had a rich career, and then they either hit a lull or they're on hiatus. How do I resurrect this? It's looking at those types of people. Like Marc Cohen—   Sharon: We just had Marc Cohen on the podcast with his box jewelry, which is so unique.   Lisa: I've known Marc for almost 35 years. I'm working with him on his 40 years of archives to make sense of them and understand how to present wearable art box sculptures, which are little, unique maquettes of a stage, like a Broadway stage. He incorporates iconic photography, and each of those tells a story. I'll be wearing one, and from across the room, someone will point at me and say, “That's the box man.” He's done a lot of much larger installations at the Museum of Jerusalem and some other work. So, presenting that work, how do we package that? How do we package it for a museum exhibition, for a gallery exhibition? Of course, we want to do a book.   Then I was working with Teri Brudnak. She was Karen McCreary's partner for Star Trek. We met 35 years ago in a plastics technology class. She and Karen were making work for Star Trek: The Next Generation, the television show. We were the only three women in this class, and people were making fun of us until they would see their pieces on television within the two-week period. They stopped the teasing and said, “O.K., this is something.” For example, the Skirball Museum has a Star Trek exhibition. How do we incorporate the legacy of what Terry and Karen created with their jewelry? It's always about peeking around the curve and finding a placement that makes sense. It is in alignment in an authentic way with their artist's voice and what they've created; not necessarily a stretch, but completely in alignment with their work and their creativity.   Sharon: Lisa, thank you so much. I learned so much today about how an artist has to sell their work. I know that's where so many get caught. Thank you so much for being here today.   Lisa: I appreciate the opportunity to tell your audience about this. It's very important. Thank you, Sharon.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: The history of Sculpture to Wear and how Lisa maintains its legacy Why editorial and media coverage is crucial for getting art jewelry recognized as a fine art What the role of a jewelry gallery is Why Lisa always advises artists to keep good records of their work How the bold brooches of the 80s paved the way for today's art jewelry About Lisa M. Berman Lisa M. Berman is an internationally recognized “Ambassador of Wearable Art.” Based in Southern California, her expertise extends to major manufacturing and retail markets, museums and corporations in the United States, Canada, Mexico, Asia and Europe. Lisa is the owner of the iconic gallery Sculpture to Wear, which was instrumental in launching the studio jewelry movement in the United States. The gallery offers an eclectic array of art, jewelry and unique objects to discerning collectors, media producers and institutions, which have been featured in film, television and publications. Her recently launched Berman Arts Agency offers artist representation, career management, corporate acquisition, sponsorship advisement, museum placement, exhibition curation and education services on the disciplines of fine art, jewelry, design and fashion. Lisa holds degrees in Plastics Manufacturing Technology from California State University Long Beach, Product & Jewelry Design from Otis College of Art & Design and Merchandising/Marketing from Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising (FIDM). She has served on the Board of Governors for OTIS College of Art & Design; as Public Relations Chair for the Textile and Costume Council at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA); and on the Museum Collection Board at FIDM. She volunteers for Free Arts for Abused Children, STEAM projects and Art & Fashion Councils. Additional Resources: Sculpture To Wear Website Sculpture To Wear Instagram Sculpture To Wear Facebook Lisa Berman Instagram Photos: Lisa M. Berman wearing Archival 18k gold plate PEBBLES Necklace by Robert Lee Morris, her own sterling silver pendant by K. Lamberti, Issey Miyake coat and holding a signed ARTWEAR Catalog (RLM). Photo by Daniel Oropeza NUE Magazine Holiday 2020  Model Neva Cole, Photo by Daniel Oropeza  ICE Collar by Greg Orloff, 2018, $15,000 Creative Director / styled by: Lisa M. Berman  NUE Magazine Holiday 2020  Feature article "Powerful Woman of Dissent" from the "Feel the Frill" Exhibition honoring RBG curated by L.M. Berman.  Sculpture: LUX MAXIMUS, Winner of ARTPRIZE 2017 by Daniel Oropeza $350,000.  Model Neva Cole wears Emancipation Collar by 2Roses, 2020, $1,500.  Photo by Daniel Oropeza  Creative Director / styled by: Lisa M. Berman  Cover of IONA Magazine  Model wears Beaded Galaxy by 3 Tribes, from our Timeless Measures Exhibition 2006, curated by Lisa M. Berman & Pamela McNeil  1 year collaboration with women from 3 tribes in Africa - elders teaching the younger generation how to bead.  Cuffs (sterling Silver & Copper) by Tana Action  IONA Magazine  Models wears pieces by Jan Mandel: “REVEALED” Collar $50,000 (worn to the EMMY Television Academy's Governors Ball) and “POIGNET” (French meaning Wrist) $25,000 - both with created from Stainless steel mesh, outlined with 18k gold wire, Citrine, 2001. IONA Magazine  Models wears pieces by Jan Mandel: Earrings - 18k gold & aqamarine (NFS), “TRANSITION” Collar, 18k gold, Onyx, Aquamarine $20,000  and “GOLDEN” Cuff, 18k gold, $10,000, made in 2001. Niche Magazine - TOP RETAILER SPIKED, red collar (Collection of Myra Gassman) & Cuffs on left side by Michelle Ritter  “POIGNET” (French meaning Wrist) $25,000 -  both with created from Stainless steel mesh, outlined with 18k gold wire, Citrine. Bouquet Ring, Stainless steel & garnet by Wendy Gwen Hacker $800 Collaboration with Sculpture To  Wear Designer Gina Pankowski & MOEN Facet manufacturer. Utlilitary into Wearable Art Cover of W Magazine  - January Jones wears LATTICE necklace (oxidized Sterling Silver) by Gina Pankowski, $4,000 And Bridge Bracelet sterling silver by Sergey Jivetin, SOLD in Private Collection    The images below are from a PHOTO shoot based in the music video Rico Mejia Photography Fashion Beauty Celebrity Lifestyle Mobile number: 323-370-0555 https://www.behance.net/ricomejia https://twitter.com/RicoMejiaFoto https://www.instagram.com/ricomejiaphoto/ Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes bResin and Diamond Bangle by Cara Croninger from 24K Show, 1979, $4,000 Citrus Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $650, and Bracelet $300 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry  Vintage Earrings- acrylic, one of a kind by Frank & Anne Vigneri, 1984, $350 Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes by Swinda Reichelt  Resin DROP earrings by Cara Croninger $200 REGINA Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $800 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry for "Feel the Frill" exhibition honoring RBG, curated by L.M. Berman. Bracelet by Genos, NFS in collection of Julie Laughton Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes by Swinda Reichelt  BLUE DROP earrings Teri Brudnak $98 HEDGEHOG Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $850 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry for "Feel the Frill" exhibition honoring RBG, curated by L.M. Berman. Clear CUFF by Cara Croninger, NFS collection of L.M. Berman        Cover of Vogue with Cherize Theron     Transcript: Lisa Berman, owner of art jewelry gallery Sculpture to Wear, has been a figure in the art jewelry world for over 20 years, and she has a wealth of insight to share with fellow jewelry lovers. For her second appearance on the Jewelry Journey Podcast, she talked about how she's maintained relationships with hundreds of designers and collectors over the years, what advice she offers the designers she works with, and why art jewelry is coming into its own as a fine art collected by museums. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Lisa Berman. Although we share the same last name, I'm not related to Lisa; however, over the years she has become a friend and a trusted dealer. Lisa has been a guest on the show before. Today, we'll have a wide-ranging discussion with less of a focus on a particular piece, more talking about her experience in the jewelry and fashion world. Per our practice, the podcast is audio only. We will be posting photos of many of the pieces Lisa mentions today on our website, which is JewelryJourney.com. This is also a two-part podcast, so please keep your eyes open for our second episode which will air later this week. Please make sure you're a member of our jewelry community by subscribing to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. That way you can listen to both episodes hot of the presses, so to speak. With that, I'd like to welcome Lisa to the program. Lisa: Thank you, Sharon. I'm so delighted to be back here again. Sharon: It's great to have you. For those who don't know your background, can you give us a brief overview of your background? Lisa: Of course. I grew up in the fashion industry and had a career in fashion design. I had an accessory business for many, many years, and then I acquired the name of Sculpture to Wear Gallery in 1998. Of course, that was originally launched in 1973 in New York City in the Park Plaza Hotel. I launched my first exhibition at Bergamot Station Art Center, which I'll tell you about in a second, on January 16, 1999. I'm proud to be the second owner of Sculpture to Wear Gallery. Now, location is important. Location, location, location, you've heard a million times in real estate. Bergamot Station Art Center is in Santa Monica, California, Southern California, and it was formerly the home to 25 thriving contemporary galleries and the Santa Monica Museum of Art. It was, I believe, a five-acre complex. Now the Red Line runs through it. Sharon: The Red Line being the Metro. Lisa: Yes, the metro. Anyway, that's where I started my journey. I actually met my former husband, Robert Berman, there as well. It was the heyday. It was like Soho. It was the happening place on the West Side; it was a lot of fun. Every Thursday, Friday and Saturday night for 10 years, there were gallery openings. There was constant influx of artists and jewelers and collectors and educators and writers, so it was definitely the place to be. Sharon: What was groundbreaking about—first, it was groundbreaking that Sculpture to Wear was on the West Coast, but what was groundbreaking about the original Sculpture to Wear? Lisa: The owner, Joan Sonnabend, was basically located in Boston, but she had a tiny, little, postage-stamp gallery. Robert Lee Morris told me it was only about 400 square feet. The delineation was that she only showed work by signed artists. For example, you had Alexander Calder making jewelry, and he actually made his jewelry. There were pieces by Picasso; those were in addition to the series and those were made by other craftsmen. Of course, you have people like Robert Lee Morris, whose entire career was launched at the original Sculpture to Wear. The idea was that she was selling one-of-a-kind, sculptural jewelry made by fine artists, not by jewelry artists. That was the idea. Sharon: From what I've heard, nobody else was doing that then. This was unusual. Lisa: It was extremely unusual. The only person that was doing something similar was in Philadelphia. That's our beloved Helen Drutt, who is about to turn 91. She was also very monumental and important in bringing studio jewelry and wearable art to the United States, but she worked with jewelers and makers, mostly in Europe. Sharon: How did you know the Sculpture to Wear license was available? How did you find out about that? Lisa: I was introduced to the idea through Cindy Forbes, who's now Cindy Brown. She ultimately ended up being my gallery manager. We had a conversation, one thing led to another, and that was kind of it. It was available, so I capitalized on that and the domain and the name. When I acquired the name, I felt it was very important that every decision I made was legacy-driven, because it was a very important part of history. This is not something I just launched; they had an important history and legacy on the East Coast. That's why for my business card, I purposely selected the title of “visionary proprietor,” because it kept me on point and on target. At first, I got a little flak from it, but as I explained, that kept me on point to do my best. That was it. Sharon: Flak because people said, “Oh my gosh—”  Lisa: A lot of gumption that I would profess to be this visionary proprietor. Now, everyone on social media is a visionary and all the museum collectors' groups are visionaries. I don't know; I guess I was ahead of the curve. Sharon: You are a visionary. Lisa: This was 23 years ago. There you go.  Sharon: So, you opened at Bergamot Station and then you moved the gallery to Montana Avenue in Santa Monica? Well, they're both in Santa Monica. Lisa: I was in Bergamot Station from 1999 until 2003. In Bergamot Station, I had two separate little locations. In 2003, I moved to a much larger location. That was on Montana Avenue at the cross street of 11th Street. I moved there knowing I was a destination, that I had built a brand with Sculpture to Wear and with the artists through a number of different ideologies and media and exposure. We'll get into that in a second, but I knew I was a destination. I was not going to rely on walk-in traffic on Montana Avenue, like so many of the other stores did. That was really important, that I had built up that mailing list, the collector base. People would be traveling, or friends would be coming in from out of town and our collectors would pick them up at the airport and say, “We have to take you to Sculpture to Wear first.” It was those kinds of relationships we had built there. Sharon: Did people stumble on your gallery in Bergamot Station? How did they find you? Lisa: Bergamot had 25 galleries, so at any given day at any given moment, you had tons of people walking around. It's completely different than it is today; of course during the pandemic, but completely different. There was no problem reaching collectors, and I was the complete anomaly. You have this sculptural jewelry, and it was an education to a new audience. A lot of these people weren't necessarily open to the idea of jewelry not having diamonds or gold. People that had an educated eye in regard to design, like architects, were some of our first clients because they understood the design. It literally was a small-scale sculpture.  I think my passion for that and some of the artists were also incorporated into that conversation. I made a request of any artists that were local to the gallery that they do three things: they had to work in the gallery, they had to come and help set up an exhibition that wasn't theirs, and they had to attend an opening that wasn't theirs. I wanted them to understand the role of a gallery and what we did. At first it was, “Well, why I would give you 50 percent of the retail price?” This was a demonstration for them to learn why. There wasn't any artist who partook in those three requests that came to me and said, “No, this isn't right.” They all were shocked at what we did on a daily basis. Robert Lee Morris, I told him about that, and he was shocked. He said, “You did that?”  Sharon: You mentioned Robert Lee Morris. A lot of people will know who he is, especially New Yorkers or fashionistas, but tell us who he is and why he's important. Lisa: Robert Lee Morris is an icon. He's been designing jewelry for over 50 years. He's the only designer to earn the Coty Award for his jewelry design an unprecedented three times. He was the designer who made the big, bold, gold jewelry in conjunction with Donna Karan's black cashmere new work uniform in the late 80s, early 90s. Digressing to understand why he's important in my world, our world of art jewelry, is that he was one of the most important and prolific designers at the original Sculpture to Wear in New York.  He was self-taught. He was literally found at a tiny, little show in an offbeat path. He was immersed in this incredible work from Alexander Calder, Salvador Dalí, Louise Nevelson—amazing artists who already had these incredible careers, and as it turns out, people loved Robert's work. He outsold all the other artists combined at Sculpture to Wear. Then he launched his own gallery. After Sculpture to Wear closed, he launched Artwear. That launched a number of careers from a lot of famous artists, jewelers, studio jewelers, some of whom are still with us and some are not. That's his legacy; first at Sculpture to Wear, then Artwear. He has these amazing archives, and we'll talk about how editorial and prior images play a role in the secondary market. That might be a good place to talk about that. Sharon: O.K., please. Lisa: What's a phenomenon for me is that when I started and someone would ask if I sold jewelry, I knew the context. They would immediately think of CZ or— Sharon: Engagement rings. Lisa: Engagement rings. I said, “No, that's not at all what I do,” and I would always be wearing a piece. I was always wearing largescale pieces of jewelry. At that time when I first opened my gallery, I had very short hair; I think it was two inches long. People may not have remembered my name, but they would point at me from across the room and say, “Oh, that's the jewelry lady. That's the Sculpture to Wear lady,” and that was just fine.  This type of work, like photography 80 or 60 years ago, was not accepted in the realm of a fine art museum. Now you see photography auctioned at over $1 million, and some of the most incredible collections in the world are simply photography. Art jewelry is now collected in some specific fine art institutions, and that is for a number of reasons. First of all, it's because of exposure from editorial and media, and also because of the stewardship of specific collectors and designers like Helen Drutt, who bequeathed her collection to the Houston Fine Art Museum. I think it was almost a decade ago, and there's an incredible book. It's on my bookshelf. I can see it from here; it's very orange and large. She wanted her collection to be viewed at a fine arts museum versus a craft museum, and that started that conversation.  Lois Boardman on the West Coast donated her collection to LACMA, LA County Museum of Art, I believe five years ago. Also, for example, the Renwick Gallery at the Smithsonian has been collecting this work for a lot longer. For example, Jen Mandel and I were there for her induction into the Smithsonian. That was incredible. We were standing right next to a piece made by Alexander Calder, and that's where her vitrine was placed. It's really about this conversation, and I think it's a conversation of education.  As for the secondary market, we were just attending the Bonhams preview for the Crawford Collection. That's an unprecedented phenomenon, to have a collection of that level, of that stature, being auctioned by Bonhams without diamonds, without gold. There are a few elements and pieces to that, but you're looking at Art Smith pieces, modernists, studio jewelers. This is a very exciting and fertile time to be involved in studio and art jewelry. This is what I've been doing for the last 22, 25 years. We're at a very exciting place and there are a number of forums, especially with Covid and Zoom, with Art Jewelry Forum having open conversations about this, introducing collectors to artists and, of course, your podcast. There are a lot of variations and factors for the secondary market. Sharon: Lisa, because your jewelry and art jewelry in general is still avant garde—although it's coming into its own—do you think collectors or people like you are going to say, “O.K., what's next? What's on the horizon now? That's become old hat.” It hasn't, but do you think people are going to move on? Lisa: Sharon, I hope not. Within the genre of studio jewelry and wearable art, it has progressed and become so sophisticated. There are so many different makers out there, especially with the internet connecting us. When I first started in 1999, we didn't really have the internet; we barely had email, and now that's how everyone communicates. I think that people's creativity, the way people wear pieces and where they wear them—the reality is that we're not going anyplace right now during the pandemic, and I'm looking at different generations and how to include that next generation in collecting. For example, some of my first clients were in their 60s and 70s when they started collecting, and some are no longer with us. So, how do we engage their family members? You're our most recent convert to art jewelry. My gallery was so close to your house, yet you would have had no interest in what we did. I think it's a journey. Can you say someone's going to have a different trend? No.  I also think technology has played an important role not only in studio jewelry and the exposure, but also the techniques. People are using laser cutting, 3D printing. Technology has also been accepted into fine arts institutions and it has blurred the lines of the conversation of craft and fine art. Even five years ago, there was a delineation that was very distinct. There are still institutions that are not interested in immersion, but I think technology has been a friend, not a foe, to studio jewelers and the paths they can cross. Sharon: I do have to tell a story. Lisa and I were laughing because I lived close to where her gallery used to be. I lived not so far in the Valley, 10 miles away. I was never in your gallery, but I remember seeing an ad one day and thinking, “Who is going to wear this stuff?”  Lisa: And now the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Sharon: It was way out. When you say that people who were older started collecting it, that's the sort of people who don't automatically say, “Wow, that's so new and so cool.” Lisa: My collectors—and I'm sure a number of the gallerists across the United States who have been around for decades would say the same—our clientele, they're not interested in trends. If they open a Vogue, they might see a dress they like, but they're not going to buy it because it's on trend or in fashion. All my clientele, they're well-traveled; they're well-heeled; they're generally educated. They're willing to be avant garde. They don't want to wear the same thing everyone else is wearing, so it's a little bit different. The whole conversation now is that there are younger generations. I just met an incredible student at USC at the Bonhams preview. She's running this entire magazine department in her off time while she's full-time at USC. That's to reach a new collector base and new makers, but that's exciting. That's what makes it viable. Sharon: Yes, it keeps on going. Lisa: Right. That was one of the things I wanted to talk about in regards to when I first started in 1999: it was not only the relationships we built with the artists and the collectors, but we also had our version of social media, which was just printed publications. We didn't have social media, so building relationships with well-known stylists, who were either Emmy award winners or high-profile people that worked with celebrities, that was really important. We got to the point where they would literally call me up with the theme, tell me what it was, and I would already pull the pieces and have a box ready for them. We had a shorthand. That was, again, a relationship that would have to be cultivated. It was very exciting, and that's part of building the legacy of why this work is important. For example, Robert Lee Morris is pulling out his archives. Part of the excitement of these presentations is showing some of the editorial, these great magazine covers and shows that these pieces were included in. I have two decades of binders of images. So, that's very exciting, to show the relevance 20 years ago to now.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why jewelry carries meaning beyond just its material value Where jewelry and adornment fits into visual culture How Lisa developed Initiatives in Art and Culture's series of conferences, and how she has adapted them during Covid When the next IAC Gold Conference is and what speakers to expect About Lisa Koenigsberg Lisa Koenigsberg is the Founder and Conference Director of Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC) which aims to educate diverse audiences in the fine, decorative and visual arts. Lisa has organized conferences, symposia and special sessions at universities, museums and professional organizations throughout the U.S. and abroad which explore fashion, materials and process. Her writings have appeared in books, journals, magazines and in Trendvision's Trendbook 2018. Lisa previously served as Advisor to the Dean for Arts Initiatives; Director, Programs in the Arts; and adjunct professor of arts, NYU School of Continuing and Professional Studies. Additional positions include: Assistant Director for Project Funding, Museum of the City of New York; Executive Assistant, Office of the President, American Museum of Natural History; architectural historian, New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission; and guest curator, Worcester Art Museum and Yale University Art Gallery. She holds graduate degrees from The Johns Hopkins University, and from Yale University where she received her Ph.D. Additional resources: Initiatives in Art and Culture Instagram Initiatives in Art and Culture Facebook Initiatives in Art and Culture Linkedin Initiatives in Art and Culture Linktr.ee Lisa Koenigsberg Linkedin Photos: Transcript: Throughout history, people have always had an instinct to adorn themselves. Although the materials and trends change, the desire to make things beautiful is deeply human. Lisa Koenigsberg, President of Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC), joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about this phenomenon, as well as IAC's series of conferences covering a variety of jewelry topics. Read the episode transcript below.  Sharon: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Lisa Koenigsberg, President of Initiatives in Art and Culture, an organization which is committed to educating diverse audiences in the fine, decorative and visual arts, with particular emphasis on jewelry. The organization offers some intriguing conferences and live stream events. We'll hear all about those today as well as Lisa's own jewelry journey. Lisa, welcome to the program. Lisa: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey. I know you covered a lot of ground prior to founding the organization. Lisa: It's actually a more complicated question than that, because our journeys—the personal and the professional are always intertwined. I'll start with one memory from my childhood, which is of my mother getting dressed for special evenings. She had an outfit that was red and shoes that were printed with a raspberry print—perhaps it was floral and I remember it as that—and she had earrings that were two rounds of small rubies with little diamond flowers and a ring that matched. That association is very profound, one of beauty with my mother, one of the meaningfulness of adornment, the specialness that it denotes. Special can mean many things, of course. I happen to be an extremely visual person. I was born into a world, if you will, a culture, and I have always looked at materiality from across a disciplinary perspective. How does the mother's jewelry indicate that? On the one hand, you have the emotion that resonates, the association, which is a powerful way that humans think. When they see something they associate with X, and if you do it often enough, then you have an accepted, codified language. If we always see, for example, a steeple and then think “church,” then we've created a convention of meaning. The other thing is that her jewels were beautiful objects made of materials, meaning what? You'd have stone; you'd have metal; you'd have artisanry that shapes material, crafts material—another loaded word—into something that is then worn. I think one of the great challenges about jewelry is that adorning ourselves and crafting objects to which we give significant value—and by that I don't mean monetary value, but we imbue it with spiritual value, we load it with emotional association and the resonance of love, of friendship, the power of faith, for example, a cross, or a more singular object would be the Pope's ring. This is an innate instinct in us to want to adorn and to create adornment.  I'm steering away from the word “jewelry” in this context, simply because any word, as we're discovering these days—we had the War of the Roses, and now we have the War of the Words. What exactly do words mean? Wearing and creating what we could call jewelry is so innately human, and yet we burden it with the weight or the negotiation of associations that can come with the word “luxury.” Luxury, to many people, implies something that is superfluous; it is frivolity. One of the ways people are trying to resolve that dichotomy is in contemplating how the materials that go into the adornment are sourced, how the adornment is made, which gets at “good, better, best” and this idea of fewer, better things, which is not anti-materialist; it is actually an affirmation of the importance of materiality and the importance of being selective, purposeful, considerate and deliberate about choice. But it's a heavy burden that jewelry bears. Sharon: That's true, and in Initiatives in Art and Culture you've explored this. Tell us about the organization, your webinars, the conferences you're doing. Tell us more so we know when we get something in our email about an upcoming event. I know you've explored a lot of this. Lisa: The organization launches and then stewards projects, very often conferences, symposia or series. Now we're looking at publications that focus on—I'm going to borrow my term back “visual culture,” and by that we mean what you see. From the earliest point in my life which is preschool, pre-everything, I have seen the visual as a language. You have the language of form; you have the language with which you execute form: Is it classic? Is it baroque? Is it spirit? Is it colorful? You have the materials out of which it's made. What value do we ascribe to those materials? Is one better than the other? Does material value influence our concept of whether something is better or not?  With this general swirl, what does a picture of Andrew Jackson astride a horse tell you? It references a whole tradition of visual culture. It reinforces the mythology of Jackson, which you may wish to unveil to see some ugly subtext. It is about communicating effectively to a culture with imagery that conveys extant but perhaps not articulated messages that need to be articulated. If you think about religious art, much religious art is not only glorious, but it also serves as a visual manifestation of something so we think, “Oh, that's a textual narrative.” Before the universality of text, we had images, and how those images are created impacts us as much as the words with which a statement is crafted.  Then there are many dimensions to value of material. So, it's made of aventurine and it's blue, and therefore it's one of the most costly colors. Is that the product of a society that relies upon it for its subsistence? Then there's what we might call social sustainability as a dimension. All of these things are, from my perspective, summarized in visual culture. So, our purpose is to explore from every angle—and we welcome new thoughts as to what those angles might consist of—but to explore from every angle possible that which you see. Jewelry is of central importance in that canon of objects.  Sharon: In a different lifetime when we could travel, I attended one of your conferences, the Gold Conference. You have an upcoming virtual conference. Tell us about that. It really sounds interesting, and it focuses on jewelry and some of the issues you've been talking about, sustainability.  Lisa: With pleasure. We have two conferences that have focused on jewelry that are fairly long-running. One of them tends to look at fashion, cultural zeitgeist, materials, and it often uses color as a lens. It was the 10th anniversary of that conference, which was called Green. It was in 2008 that we made an effort to rework our significant commitment to that and transitioned into exploring jewelry and materials related to jewelry. In the process of working on that conference, we met many people with whom we still have wonderful relationships today, ranging from Toby Pomeroy, who was a pioneer in what was then called ecoluxury and who has such an important mercury-free mining initiative underway, to Benjamin Zucker, who is a gem merchant but also an extraordinary novelist and collector. He came and spoke about green diamonds because we wanted, one might say, a polymorphously perverse approach to green and gold and how it is mined. That was a focus of that conference, and that was the beginning of a leg of a journey. We did a Coral Conference; we did a Diamond Conference. I woke up one day and said, “Oh golly, we've never done gold,” but the nuggets were there, if you will. It's a corny metaphor, but that was the beginning of what you referred to, a decade as the “Gold Conference,” which has explored the emotional power and resonance of artistic potential residing in gold, associated values attributed to gold and how it is yielded from the earth. As the cultural conversation has become more complex and look into more angles, so has ours with a pronounced emphasis on craft or artisanry as well as on our responsibility to the planet and to one another. It's something we would call responsible practice. At the same time, I've been very interested in pushing the boundaries so that we do more comparison, for example, of gold and diamonds and established categories or vehicles of value and the different ways they are produced, to use the industry terminology, or mined. What are the society implications; what are the different ways we consider value; what's the relationship between, say, stone and metal in creating something of beauty? We were very fortunate to partner with Ronnie Vanderlinden and a number of groups he's associated with and do something called Day of Light. Sharon: Who's this person? I don't him; I'm sorry. Lisa: Ronnie is very prominent in the diamond world. He's an extraordinary human being of great kindness and immense connectedness throughout that world. When I say “that world,” I mean the world of diamonds in particular, which is a very complicated and interesting universe. We were asked to partner with him and a group of colleagues to produce a day called Day of Light. Out of that day—which looked largely at diamonds, everything from their significance, to the range of colors in which they come, to the moral ramifications of extraction, all of that—out of that, came the idea of pushing the borders of the Gold Conference so the Day of Light shone brightly on the Gold Conference. So, we married the two, or one has expanded to include the other, which is something I've been quite interested in. Of course, that doesn't preclude our looking at colored stones at all, but that, in effect, is the upcoming virtual conference. So, it's our 11th year of what is now the Gold and Diamond Conference. We are doing it virtually July 13-15. The reason for doing this virtually is, one, I had an extraordinary epiphany. The first time we did a webinar and understood the impact we have or did have, we were really honored because we had 44 countries listening in. That was enormously exciting to me, and I guess unfortunately meant more work, because I was so excited that I said, “All right, we're going to do this even if this is whatever the world looks like.” The conference is in person because there's a criticality to being in person that you cannot replicate. On the other hand, the virtual and web context provides other things that also are irreplicable and important, so together they are more than the sum of their parts. Sharon: What are the dates of the conference? Lisa: The conference is going to happen July 13-15, which is a Tuesday through Thursday, approximately 10:30-2:00. Sharon: Is that Eastern Time, 10:30-2:00? Lisa: Yes, ET. The reason for that is that we try to be mindful of as many time zones as we can be; West Coast, U.K., Europe, etc. and that seems to be a good slice. Those are not precise hours. We are working to have an elegantly crafted program, because the way people experience time virtually is different than they do when you come together for something in person. That's something we've been quite aware of. Sharon: First, I want to make sure everybody listening knows we'll have a link to your website and that they can get more information about the conference if they want to sign up for it. I also want to emphasize, just from my own experience, that you're talking about deep, profound issues, but at the same time you had makers; you had designers. I'm not in mining or manufacturing, but I want to make sure everybody understands that you had guests that were of interest to a lot of people. Lisa: We have a tremendous cross-section of people participating in the program, from makers to curators to collectors to yes, manufacturers, which is a bit of a separate realm, to people who cut stones, to people who write about value in the world. You pick up the newspaper and there's a column, “Should I Buy Gold Today?” That's actually related to what's on your finger, and the people who come to our conferences mirror that diversity. We have collectors. We have people who love jewelry and are interested in it for a range of reasons, and it is not what they do for a living or their day job. Then we have a range of people who do come from different aspects of it. You can have somebody who works in mining sitting next to somebody who has the breath of god in their hands. That actually brings up something interesting, which is the hand aspect. The open door to everyone is something that has been fundamental to me forever, and I have to say I'm very indebted to my father for this. My father was deeply, deeply interested in American art all his life. I was immersed in that world; I still am. My father approached that world as the amateur. He read everything. He looked at everything, but this is not what he did for his day job. This was a passion to which he was deeply committed. That enthusiasm and joy in the field of endeavor was something that was transmitted. That spark, that is the most interesting thing to feel that and to bring whatever question, whatever interest, whatever approach you have.  Something that's important that needs to be talked about more is how we wear jewels. We tend to think, “Oh, we're going to put the broach on the shoulder. That's where it goes.” Well, that's the idea of a coat pin, but in fact the brooch unbelievable. It is positioned in many ways, has many functions. It becomes quite related to fashion, and by fashion I don't mean “It's got to be pink or navy blue,” but literally, “Well, if I'm going to wear it at my waist, can the structure of my outfit, whether it's pants or a skirt or a dress, accommodate that positioning?” What does positioning mean? We know innately that we respond to these things, because all you have to do is scroll your media feed and say, “Oh my goodness, somebody has an engagement ring and it's a portrait cut. Somebody else has worn it. It's a pearl. Somebody else set a magnificent stone and created a highly original ring.” We see these things. We may not be drilling down into the particulars in the footnotes, but we're all susceptible to the buzz, the power, the cultural associations of needing to do better. There's the example of the impact of “blood diamond” and what the industry has done and the efforts that inspired them to do better, to be better. Frankly, some of the people who consider this on the most important level, they're the consumer. Jewelry is a powerful vehicle that touches us all. Take a look at your left hand or your right hand. Are you wearing something? It probably says something to you, and that's what we're here to explore and talk about.  Sharon: You've had series of—I call them webinars, but they're live streams with a variety of people participating from all over the world with live discussions. Lisa: Yes, our Child of Covid. This was sparked by one of our partners. We were going to have our 10thanniversary conference in April of 2020, and fortuitously it was going to be on Earth Day. Then circumstances prompted us to push it back to October, and we were asked, as was everyone, “What are you doing to meet the circumstances that exist now? What are you putting in front of people? How are you engaging them, how are the issues and the beauties and all the rest of it being brought to bear?” I had no experience in the realm, but I said, “O.K., we'll do three webinars, one a month, between now and when the conference is meant to happen.” I say meant to happen because we ended up doing a virtual manifestation, but it was that experience, the first episode or webinar that we put forward, and the breadth of audience and the responsiveness of audience that moved me to say, “We're going to continue doing the conferences, absolutely; they're critical and irreplaceable, and at the same time this is something important, too.”  One of the things we strive for is unscripted, guest-prepared lectures, and always with people who are speaking from a perspective of accomplishment, whether they're an amazing jeweler or somebody who represents a particular part of the government or a particular part of the industry, whether it's retail or women's issues. People who bring, from their own informed vantage point, a readiness to talk with each other about questions and shared interests, even if perhaps they come from different avenues. We've been excited to welcome people as participants from all over the world, as you suggested, and we also receive questions, comments and responses in real time from people who are all over the world wanting to have answers or make comments about what's going on. That's our Child of Covid, but we will find another name because it is here to stay, I hope.  I like to turn that on its ear and say it's something that prompts in me a thought about this interlude or period of time that has been Covid. Interlude maybe suggest something a bit too pleasantly musical. Along with the devastation and the very traumatic impacts, loss of life and transformed social structure, have also come some very positive outcomes, even if the way one defines that outcome is a period of reflection to think about how we can do something better, how we can have better lives, how we can be more reflective or conscious or kind. What is the meaning of what we do? Do we want to be a bit deeper with less of the frequency that seems to have characterized culture prior to the pandemic?  Sharon: I understand why you've had so many conferences, virtual or in person, because these are deep issues. You bring in people from across the board, people who are working hands-on, bench jewelers, designers, people who are familiar with mining and manufacturing. We could talk about that more, but what was interesting to me in your last webinar was a lot of people saying, “We're not there yet. We have been working on environmental consciousness and how and where things are mined.”  I want to make sure everybody knows that your next conference is July 13-15, and it's Gold and Diamond. For me, being on the West Coast, I'm thrilled when these things are virtual, even though I've been fortunate enough to go to New York to attend some in person. To sit on my living room couch and listen to these is great. Lisa, thank you so much for being here today. Lisa: May I leave you with a parting thought? Sharon: Absolutely. Lisa: O.K., I'm going to take this off. On my right hand, I wear two rings. One of them was given to me by mother on my first Mother's Day as a mother. Imagine that I'm holding up this ring, which is beautiful; it is Greek in expression, timeless looking, very, very warm gold. Those are the attributes visually. Then there are all the associations the ring has, because my mother wore it for years and years, and I was actually present when my father gave it to her. So, that ring is on my hand. Clearly that ring is important to me. In a way, the jewelry journey starts with each of us. The fact that jewelry is meaningful in whatever way it is actually prompts a quest for the materials. That opens up the world of questions about practice and sourcing, for example. Then, as it's transformed, you have other questions regarding taste, etc. But it all begins with us and our deep-seated connection to jewelry. I think the personal connection there is something that we celebrate, and hopefully it is a universal touch point for all of us as we go forward to talk about it in whatever ways we will.  Sharon: There's so much to talk about. We can talk for hours about some of these subjects, and I'd love to do that. Hopefully we'll have you back again and we'll continue the conversation, but thank you so much for being here today. Lisa: It's absolutely a pleasure. I'd love to come back anytime. Sharon: O.K., thank you. We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.    

It's common to hear that a good diet and exercise can significantly improve our health. But health is more than that. Your thoughts and beliefs can change your genes and brain structure! 85% of our genes are malleable, and you can change them for the better with good practices.   In this episode, Dr Dawson Church joins us to talk about the benefits of meditation and EFT tapping. He shares that changing our mental states can significantly impact our bodies and even our environment. The key to happiness and calm is in our hands; we just need to invest time to achieve it.  If you want to know more about the benefits of meditation and the science behind EFT tapping, then this episode is for you.    Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, your goals and your lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, a NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that is capable of boosting the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements that are of highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combat the effects of aging, while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover the ways you can influence and change your genes and body. Understand the benefits of meditation and achieving a flow state. Learn how to become a force of good in the world by being an emotional contagion.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-ageing and longevity with NMN Bio. More Pushing the Limits Episodes: 183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Elena Seranova 189: Increasing Your Longevity with Elena Seranova Pushing the Limits Episode with Dr Don Wood Connect with Dr Dawson: Website | Twitter | Facebook Check out these amazing books and resources from Dr Dawson Church   The Genie In Your Genes   Mind To Matter. Get it for free here!  Bliss Brain. Get it for free here! You'll also get eight meditations that accompany each chapter of the book.     The EFT Manual The Immunity Meditation: Receive Your Complimentary EFT Mini-Manual and BONUS Immunity EcoMeditation! EFT Universe Stealing Fire by Steven Kotler  Think And Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill  ABC's Catalyst - Meditation The Muscle Intelligence Podcast with Ben Pakulski: Using energy therapy to heal trauma and illness, increase productivity, up-regulate gene expression and build character traits with Dr Dawson Church   Episode Highlights [05:52] The Benefits of Meditation and Alternative Practices Dr Dawson shares how his research shows that our minds can turn thoughts and ideas into reality.  People who practice meditation become really happy.  Dr Dawson shares that he studied meditation, energy healing, and psychology.  Through this, he transformed from a miserable teen to the happy character he is today.  Dr Dawson believes that his purpose is to give the gift of happiness to others.  [10:18] Quantifying Ancient Traditions with Science  Dr Dawson shares how he was able to measure acupressure points using the galvanometer.  His findings proved the integrity of the Chinese practice of energy flows.  Energy treatments have shown astronomical results. Listen to the full episode to hear the breakthroughs in these treatments.  [13:55] How to Influence Your Genes While we can influence our genes with diet, recent research shows that you can also change it with your beliefs and attitudes.  15% of our genomes are fixed, while the remaining 85% are malleable.  In his practice, Dr Dawson learned how anxiety spikes cortisol levels, depletes the immune system, produces calcification in the brain and more.  This finding shows that it's important to manage our thoughts and beliefs.  Through this, we're able to influence our physical bodies positively.  [16:36] How EFT Tapping Addresses Trauma EFT tapping has shown its effectiveness in resetting your emotions, especially when you're feeling stressed, anxious, or angry.  Normally, your stress response creates re-traumatisation by sending high levels of signals in your body. Over time, this can shrink the brain.  When you remember a traumatic event while tapping, you can reduce the signals and break traumatic associations.  Once you break the association between your traumatic memories and fight or flight response, it stays broken.  EFT Tapping is a powerful tool. Learn how Dr Dawson uses this to help war veterans in the full episode!  [25:44] Break the Trauma Loop and Calm Down When traumatic memories and experiences haunt you, you fall into a trauma loop.  We have evolved to become highly attuned to potential dangers, even if they're just possibilities.  Our modern world doesn't help with this condition, where people say that it's hard to find time to meditate and calm down.  Dr Dawson shares that a few minutes of mediation will pay off. Not only will you be calmer physically and physiologically, but you will also perform better.  You cannot afford not to meditate.  [31:55] How to Get into the Flow State Scientists found that when someone is in flow, they have a characteristic brainwave state.  They sought to re-engineer this and train ordinary people to achieve the same state. We can achieve the flow state through mediation like the mystics do or through peak performance.  Once you hit this state repeatedly, your brain will be naturally addicted to the boost in anandamide. You get into the same state of bliss that you achieve through drugs.  There are several other benefits of meditation. Listen to the full episode to hear what it can do.  [37:10] Letting Go of Local Reality Dr Dawson shares that great figures throughout history have let go of ordinary states to achieve the extraordinary.  In meditation, you have the opportunity to let go of local reality and go to a field of consciousness.  This place is where we can deliberately change our belief systems and then affect our local reality.  When you enter the non-local reality, you can change the hardware of the brain.  Immerse yourself in meditation, and it will change your mind and brain. Then it starts to change your whole life.   [44:18] Mindset Changes on Sports and Exercise Athletes often get injured when they're not in the flow state. Athletes who have a long career tend to know how to pace themselves.  For people looking to lose weight, it's important to associate exercise with pleasure rather than pain. This strategy helps to stretch people's limits without burning out.  Learn to listen to your body and stop when it tells you to do so.  Athletes are typically expected to push themselves. It's the same principle: they need to learn to listen to their body and understand their limits.  The way we build strength and endurance is through recovery. Don't forget this part of the training.  [56:11] Be an Agent of Positive Emotional Contagion People can affect their environment. Our emotions and moods are contagious.  We don't know how far our positivity can reach. It can affect hundreds and even thousands. It can even save lives.  Become an agent of compassion and love. Not only will you help others, but you also help yourself.   Listen to the full episodes to learn about the research on spreading positivity and happiness.  [1:05:36] Living Longer On average, optimists live ten years longer than pessimists.  Negative emotions are like corrosive acids that will damage your body.  You need to work on being optimistic and healing your trauma simultaneously. Note that this is a continuous process.    7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘I just said, “You know, universe, what is your purpose for me in the coming year?” And the universe, I heard these words, they said, “We've given you the gift of happiness. Now, go give it to everyone else, too.” So that's really what I see myself doing now and where I came from originally and where I am today.' ‘It's [EFT] like pushing the reset button for your emotions. So you're upset, you're angry or you're stressed whatever way, then you simply tap on these points very, very quickly.' ‘You cannot afford not to meditate. The gains in productivity, problem solving ability, and creativity is so enormous that if you don't spend that hour or that half hour, you are missing out on your biggest single leverage point for success in your life.' ‘In meditation for a little while, you let go of local reality, and you simply identify with the field of consciousness that is the cosmos. There's this huge information field in which we swim in it. We're like fish looking for water when we're looking for God or spirituality.' ‘I wrote in my journal, “My heart is just burning with love and bursting with gratitude”. Because you come down in the states of such ecstasy and the rest of the world in your life, and it is a world of magic. You then create that magic all around you.' ‘Athletes, first of all, when they're in the zone, when they're in flow, they injure themselves less and their performance goes up. It's that old Yerkes-Dodson law, currently referred to a little bit of stress is fine.' ‘Jesus said, “Love your enemies,” to go to them that hate you. Yeah, very good advice, even though it's 2,000 years old. And when you do this, you're producing emotional contagion around you. You have no idea how far it's going.'   About Dr Dawson Church Dr Dawson Church is a leading health writer and researcher whose principal work includes The Genie In Your Genes, Mind To Matter and Bliss Brain. His research linked the connection of consciousness, emotion and gene expression. Moreover, he has looked into the science of peak mental states, flow states and happiness.  With his research, Dr Dawson conducted clinical trials and founded The Institute for Integrative Healthcare to promote groundbreaking new treatments. To date, his largest program is the Veterans Stress Projects which has offered free treatment to over 20,000 veterans with PTSD.     Dr Dawson further shares his research through EFT Universe, one of the largest alternative medicine websites. In addition, he is the science columnist for Unity magazine and has written blog posts for the Huffington Post.   In his undergraduate and graduate courses at Baylor University, Dr Dawson was the first student to graduate from the University Scholar's program in 1979. He earned his doctorate from the Integrative Healthcare at Holos University under the famed neurosurgeon Norman Shealy, MD, PhD, the American Holistic Medical Association founder.  Are you interested to know more about Dr Dawson's work? Check out his website and EFT Universe.  You can also reach Dr Dawson on Twitter and Facebook.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they learn the benefits of meditation and the science behind EFT tapping. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa.   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.  Lisa Tamati: Welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Your host, Lisa Tamati, here with you and today I have another very, very special guest for you that is perhaps going to change your life. A really very interesting man. Dr Dawson Church, PhD,  who is an award winning science writer with three bestselling books to his credit. The Genie in Your Genes was the first book to demonstrate that emotions drive gene expression. So that's all-around epigenetics, epigenetics and how your emotions can actually change the way your genes are expressing. The second book Mind to Matter, which is really something that you must read, shows that the brain creates much of what we think of as objective reality. And his third book, Bliss Brain demonstrates that peak mental states rapidly remodel the brain for happiness.  Now, Dawson has conducted dozens of clinical trials and founded the National Institute for Integrative Healthcare to promote ground-breaking new treatments. Its largest program, the Veteran Stress Project has offered over free treatment to over 20,000 veterans who are suffering from PTSD. All for love, no money involved, an absolute amazing project. Dawson now shares how to apply these health and performance breakthroughs through his EFT universe. It was just an absolutely fascinating conversation with him. I'm very, very interested always in neuroplasticity because I was told, with my mum story, as you all know, that there was no hope that her brain would not be able to remodel and not be able to learn again and that is so far from the truth. In his new book, A Bliss Brain, award winning science writer Dawson Church focuses on the positive and negative mood and negative thinking and how it's associated with activation of brain regions like the prefrontal cortex - the state of yourself, and positive emotions such as altruism and compassion.  He blends cutting edge neuroscience with the stories of people who've had first-hand experience or brain change. And Bliss Brain really examines the effects of emotional states on brain structure. Suffice to say, you have to listen to this episode. I think if you're struggling with anxiety, struggling with stress, feeling the effects of ongoing long-term stress on your body and with illnesses and sicknesses and depression and all of these things that hamper just so many of us, so many of the people that I work with, and certainly I struggle with it on occasion, as well, then this is a book for you.  Dr. Dawson really emanates happiness and joy. But that wasn't always the case, he was someone who had suffered from depression quite badly in his early years. And this is what sent him down this great path. He manages to marry the science with the traditional things like Chinese medicine and Meridians and energy medicine. He's been able to quantify it so that people like me who love science in general open minded sceptics, I like to call myself, can actually understand why these things work. And that's really, really important.  Before we head over to Dr. Dawson. I just like to remind you, we have now our Patron membership for the podcast. If you'd like to get involved with the podcast, if you'd like to support what we do here at Pushing the Limits. We've been doing it now for five and a half years, and near on 200 episodes. I can tell you, into each episode goes a heck of a lot of work and a lot of research, and a lot of book reading, a lot of time. And we really need — to keep this on air — we really need your help. So if you'd like to come and support us and get a whole lot of extra member benefits, then head on over to patron.lisatamati.com, that's patron.lisatamati.com. You can join us in our tribe there. I would really, really appreciate you doing that. And as always, please give us a rating and review for the show because that really does help us as well and share it with your family and friends if you get benefit from us. I'd also love to hear from you, if you've got a question about one of the guests. If you want to dive deeper into one of the topics, please reach out to me, support@lisatamati.com.  I'd like to remind you too, that we also have our epigenetics program, which is our flagship program that we have that looks at your genes and how to optimise your genes, and how to understand the nuance of what foods, what times of the day, what types of exercise, what are your dominant hormones, what are your dominant neurotransmitters and how that plays out in your life. So if you'd like to join us for that, please head over to lisatamati.com and go under the Work With Us button and you'll see all the information there.  Now over to Dr. Dawson Church. Lisa: Hi everyone, and welcome to Pushing the Limits. I'm super excited to have you here with me today. I have an absolute legend, a man who has done so much research and so much good in the world, Dr. Dawson Church with me. Welcome to the show. Dawson, it's really, really exciting to have you with us today. Thanks for taking the time.  Dr. Dawson Church: For me, too, Lisa. We have had such fun now and the next hour. We just had off the air, this would be a fabulous time for you and me and everyone else combined. Lisa: Exactly. We already had a couple of really good connections. That's fantastic.  So, Dawson, well, you are an incredible man with a number of books. You have your research, you're an expert on the brain and the mind and body connection. Can you give us a little bit of background about how did you get into the space and what you've been studying? I mean, it's a big question, but we'll start there anyway. Dr. Dawson: Well, let's start right in the middle. I worked at a book about five years ago called Mind to Matter. It was really off the cuff project — I was interviewing scientists, I was trying to trace all of the scientific pieces, the links, the chain between having a thought and a thing. And I thought, “Well, I'll find some links to the chain, not others.” But I found all of them. It was so interesting to see how our thoughts literally become things, how our brains function like transducers, from the universal field of information and we then manifest those things all around us. While I was doing that I got into —  so I've been meditating everyday for like 20 years plus — but I own some really esoteric forums, our meditation practice by masters who've done it like 10,000 hours. By the end, I find myself getting really, really, really, really happy. I was already a really happy person. But at the end, I had to find myself getting super happy, no matter what the circumstances. But we had to look at all why people who do certain styles of meditation gets so happy. That's why I wrote the book, Bliss Brain. I began the process, 50 years before that, as a teenager, when I was so toxically depressed and anxious and miserable. I was suicidal, I mean, I want to just kill myself when I was 12, 13, 14 years old. And I looked into my own eyes, walked past a full-length mirror one day when I was 15, looked into my own eyes, and I said to myself, those are the saddest eyes I've ever seen. I realised I was so messed up inside. So, I went to live on a spiritual community for many years. I learned meditation, learned energy healing, studied psychology. Wanted to figure out how I could make myself happier, and got a little bit happier over the years. And then when I began to meditate every single day, I didn't have to use energy therapies like EFT tapping, suddenly I got a lot happier. After Mind to Matter, doing these esoteric meditations, got super happy, I want to then just tell it to the world. So I had this epiphany. But I don't want to retreat every New Year's Eve and spend about two, three weeks just really getting quiet meditating, asking the universe, “What are my marching orders for the coming year?”  I was walking the labyrinth with a group of about 40 people at a meditation centre in New Year's, couple of years ago. I stood at the centre of the labyrinth at the stroke of midnight. And I just said, “Universe, what is your purpose for me in the coming year?” And the universe, I heard these words, they said, “We've given you the gift of happiness. Now, go give it to everyone else, too.” So that's really what I see myself doing now and where I came from originally and where I am today. Lisa: Oh, wow, that is beautifully put in. So, Bliss Brain because you've written a number of books. Mind to Matter was the last one and then Bliss Brain is this one. And when people are listening to this, a lot of people will think, “Well, yes.” But is this, especially a lot of the people that are scientifically, believe in the science and they want evidence. What I found so interesting with your work is that you've met managed to marry the science, the quantified effects of energy medicine, of meditation, of pressure points, of EFT, all of these things is energy, things and actually quantified those with science in very rigorous-based, evidence-based, which for me is always a fascinating thing. Because I'm very much an open minded person, but I like to have that rigor, that sceptical mind, that prefrontal cortex that often jumps in and goes, “But is this real?” And you said, on the cusp between, being open minded and being scientific and you've seem to marry these two, just beautifully in your work and being able to quantify some of the ancient traditions the Chinese medicine, the Meridians, these types of things that have been known for thousands of years, but are now actually being shown to be correct and with science. Can you tell us about that?  Dr. Dawson: What's amazing is if you're taking a pedal instrument, handheld instrument, called the galvanometer. It's battery powered, it picks up the electrical resistance on your skin. And so, at my live workshops, I will run this over people's skin, and the little muscle device makes beeping sound whenever it hits an acupuncture point. And it's because those points are very, very high conductance, low resistance. You'll run this little deal over the person's face, nothing's happening, it'll hit an acupuncture point like this over here is on the bladder meridian, this point over here, and suddenly the machine goes crazy and starts beeping and flashing only in this tiny point about a millimetre in diameter, and no other surrounding skin. That's the exact point shown in a 2400-year-old Chinese scroll.  These ancients knew about all these points, energy flows, the chakras, the meridians, and so on. Now, we have instrumentation to measure them. At least the cool thing about the measurement process is, as we're measuring the effects of energy therapies, energy treatments, we're finding that as we quantify them, the effects aren't tiny. They aren't 3%, 5%. Sometimes they're astronomical. Like for example, the EFT. So in meta-analysis, meta-analys-s gathered together 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 studies into a bundle. And then, they extract all the information on a scale of how effective a therapy is. An effective therapy gets a score of two. A really effective therapy gets a score of five, and an extremely effective therapy is a score of eight. So two, five, eight, those are the three points in a meta-analysis that tells you whether a therapy has some effect or a huge effect.  In studies in meta-analysis of EFT tapping for anxiety on that 2-5-8 scale, the effect of EFT is 12. It's off the odds, off the scale, off the chart. Same thing for depression, same thing for PTSD. So now that we're quantifying these therapies, meditation, EFT, other kinds of therapies, we're applying some of them, have incredible results at the level of the genome, proteins, proteins expression, enzymes, all kinds of processes in our bodies. Lisa: Wow, that is, okay, because you've written a book called The Genie in Your Genes. It was a marvellous title because I studied epigenetics and genetics. I know that you collaborated on the book with Dr. Bruce Lipton. I was like that's one of my favourite books of all time, and actually got me down this rabbit hole of epigenetics. And so, I've looked at epigenetics in relation to the food and the nutrition and the social environment and your neurotransmitters and these sorts of things. But when I heard you talking about how it affects, like meditation — you're able to see, I think it was 72 genes or something, where it actually changes the expression of those genes in real time, when you're doing these meditations. And these were areas, I mean you know the areas better than me, perhaps you can talk about it. Because I think a lot of people don't understand that we have a DNA that we've inherited from mum and dad, that's our code if you like. But all throughout life and throughout every day and with everything that we do, we're turning genes on and off for the want of a better description, up regulating or down regulating certain genes with our environment. So what sort of things can we influence through meditation and through EFT, and so on? Dr. Dawson: That is the key question to ask me, Lisa. We can influence our gene expression with things like diet. You eat certain foods and eat really healthy foods is to turn on certain genes and result and certain processes in your body. And so, the early after they studied and study, 1999, 2002, were all about introducing dietary factors usually in experimental subjects of rats, mice, and then seeing how that affected their gene expression. But what I am much more interested in than things like drugs and external factors like food, is I am super interested in what we can do with this thing behind our bars over here and our beliefs and our attitudes and our energy. It turns out, I mean, that's funny you just mentioned, by done by remarkable, insight-filled therapist called Beth Maharaj. And she found that in an EFT session, a one hour EFT session of psychotherapy using EFT acupuncture tapping, all those acupuncture points, 72 genes were changed. And again, about 15% of our genome is fixed, like I am two metres tall, I have grey eyes and brown hair, not very much of that anymore, and I just have certain physical characteristics that are what they are. Those are fixed genes, but those are only about 15% of the genome. The other 85% is changed. When I have a negative thought, I start producing cortisol, I send a signal down to the medulla on my adrenal glands, my adrenal gland starts producing cortisol, and adrenaline. Adrenaline is your fast-acting, stress hormone; cortisol is your slow acting, but still, it hasn't two minutes and two minutes is turning everything on and off all kinds of other processes off in your body.  And so I'm doing that with my mind alone. If I'm having high cortisol day after day because I'm worried, because I'm stressed, because I'm anxious. Now, what I'm doing is I'm driving my body into this fight or flight state over and over and over again, chronic stress. It's depleting everything else, my body, my immune system, it results in muscular wasting. It literally, over time, produces calcification of the brain's learning memory centres. And you want a lot of calcium in your teeth, a lot of calcium in your bones. You do not want calcium in your brain, but it does. It literally deposits calcium in your brain's memory centres. So that is the effect epigenetically of our thoughts and our beliefs. So, it's so important that we take control of this, like there's a saying in the biology of belief that has positively positive thoughts releasing the ones going our way as having a dramatic effect on our physical bodies. Lisa: And this is like, because I've seen those scans where you have the shrunken brain that's been exposed to a lot of stress. The hippocampus shrinks and the prefrontal cortex and then you have the healthy brain that's nice and plump on the other side, if you like. It is a very good visual because this is very much like we tend to think, ‘Well, yes, I'm stressed and but that's neither here nor there, toughen up and get on with it' type of attitude. I think that this, I think we need to distinguish between short term hermetic stressors, which are good for us - the things like going in the sauna, or going into cold water or going for a run and exercise and things like that, that are slightly outside the comfort zone. But not these long-term or even medium-term stressors that are going on day for day and week upon week, and month upon month. Those are the ones that really, when you are affecting the genes on a daily basis and your cortisol, and your adrenaline are just pumping all the time.  And this is something like with my genetic makeup, I have a deficiency in receptors of dopamine, so I'm constantly after dopamine. I'm always chasing the source that I can never reach, right? And I have a lot of adrenaline and I was exposed to a lot of testosterone in the womb. So I have that personality that take action, risk taking, jumping, still playing, no strategy, that type of a personality. And these things really affect us.  However, I can take control of that through practice. I can do things that can actually help me control my innate biology if you like. So, how can people, I wanted to ask, because I think a lot of people won't know what EFT is, per se. Would you explain what that particular type of energy work is?  Dr. Dawson: EFT is very popular. It's used by over 20 million people worldwide. It's grown purely by word of mouth, there is no drug company, there is no advertising campaign, people study each other on EFT. It is often called tapping because you simply tap like this on acupuncture points. There are about 13 W's, commonly they're linked to the 13 meridians of the body. It's amazing. I'm working on a video now where I have to describe EFT in two minutes. And it's like the body's reset switch. A therapist used that in a paper, in a peer-reviewed journal recently. It's like pushing the reset button for your emotions. So if you're upset, you're angry or you're stressed whatever way, then you simply tap on these points very, very quickly and it resets you.  So, there are several of these points. While you are thinking about the bad stuff in your life, you combine that reflection of ruminating on the stuff that bothers you with the tapping. And if you ruminate on the bad stuff, what happens normally, if you're just thinking about the bad stuff, is you're sending a signal through those neural bundles and they're getting bigger and bigger and faster. That's what we call re-traumatisation. That's when you re-traumatise yourself and we find over time, that shrinks the brain; the brains of people who are traumatised as children are on average 8% smaller than those who weren't traumatised as children. Traumatic stress is, it isn't psychological, it's physiological. So that's what you're doing if you're retraumatising yourself.  If you remember that bad thing at the same time you tap, then what we see in MRI EFT studies is that the emotional midbrain gets all upset, it's all aroused as a result of thinking about the bad things. When you start tapping, all that arousal just goes down. For example, one veteran I was working with, because we work with over 20,000 veterans, giving them free treatment free of charge. What one veteran was really bothered by a memory when he was in Iraq, he was a medic. And right in the beginning of his tour of duty, one of his friends was shot. And so, he had to deal with all the gruesomeness of that friend's death. One of the things he had to do was he had to clean the uniform of his dead friend to send back to his mum and dad back in the US. Cleaning the human remains and tissue out of the uniform was tremendously triggering for him. He remembers this event, he was cleaning them out in the medic's hut. And then he'd have to run outside to take a breath of fresh air because the smell was so bad that he'd run back in a little more cleaning, run back out again. We tapped on this terrible traumatic memory. He just then had this complete sense of relaxation. He said, ‘I'm so glad I was the person who got to clean that uniform because it was my way of honouring my friend'. And as his emotional midbrain calmed down, his story changed to where it was no longer one of tragedy, but one of honouring and one of love and one affection with his friend, and you do this act of service. So if he shifts brains function that way, and it shifts it in just a few seconds like that. There's no therapy, there's no elaborate attempt to understand how you are the way you are, you just tap while you're remembering the bad stuff, while all of those new neural pathways are fully engaged, that then calms the brain down immediately. And then I met this young man again, I saw him again, about three months later, talked about the uniform, talked about his dead friend, he was still totally calm about it. And we find in long-term studies, that once you break the association in the brain between that traumatic memory and going into fight or flight, the association stays broken, and people find later on down the road. Lisa: That is absolutely amazing because I think, the longer we all live, we all end up with traumatic, hopefully not as horrific experiences as that.  Are you aware I had last week on the show Dr. Don Wood, who I'd love to introduce you actually to. He is also a trauma expert who works with vets and PTSD and everything, addiction and so on. He has a four-hour program that he takes people into the, out of beta into alpha brainwave states and takes that high definition sort of movie that's playing in people's heads around this event or events. And he says, as a description, puts it into black and white, and it's no longer triggering. So probably a different direction to get to a similar result. But you think we can do this actually, in minutes with EFT, where you can actually take away the power of that memory. Because I mean, I've been through, unfortunately, my listeners know, I lost my dad, just seven months ago, eight months ago. It was a very traumatic event and process that we went through. The intruding memories, the recurrent nightmares, all of the horror that surrounds that event is very powerful, how much it drains your daily life and your energy. I've found, since that event, I've been doing various things, but it's still very, very raw and very real to me. You are triggered a hundred times a day, and it's just draining your power to be able to work fully in the world, and to be the best version of you that you can be. I sort of know that and I'm trying to work out ways. So this is definitely one that I'm going to jump into. Dr. Dawson: Sorry, you lost your dad and what you'll find is that you don't have to let go at the normal sense. In fact, we encourage people to really grieve, really get into their feelings, that and then do the tapping as well. What happens is you process them very quickly. So we aren't telling these veteran, ‘Don't think about the bad thing. Don't think about the death. Don't think about all the trauma'. We say, ‘Do think about it, but tap while you're doing it'. And then that breaks the association in the brain between that traumatic memory and going into that stress response.  So I really encourage you to do that because we've seen so many people do this now. We work with examples, with kids who lost their parents in the Rwandan genocide. Many of them, still 25 years later, have severe PTSD. We work with victims of school shootings in the US and various places. And again, mothers and fathers who've lost their kids in school shootings. We work with them successfully with EFT. So it's not like we're just working on superficial stuff, but it is that we're trying to work on what you're being worried about in the report you have to turn it into your boss next week, and it also works on severe psychological trauma. Lisa: This is so exciting. And it is like resetting the brain. I mean, Dr. Woods mentions that it's sort of like a error glitch, and you're just going round and round and you can't get out of this sort of pattern of things.  Dr. Dawson: Yes. The trauma loop, we call it the trauma loop. The trauma loop, it's literally a loop between the thymus, thalamus, hypothalamus, the hippocampus, the amygdala in the centre of the brain. What's supposed to be happening is that input associated be referred to the prefrontal cortex and other regions to moderate emotions. And it isn't; it's stuck in an emotional midbrain, looping and looping and looping. Here's the thing is, you can't talk yourself out of it. Like I was worried about a situation at work a few weeks ago, and I would say to myself, ‘It's time to meditate now. It's 6am in the morning, I'm meditating. I will not think about that thing at work'. Well, of course, within nervous sighs, obsessed with a theory, I say that ‘Dawson, I'm going to let that go. It's meditation time now. I'm not thinking about thing at work, I'm going to return my mind to the meditative state'. Now, the thing at work, we cannot talk ourselves out of it, our conscious minds hard, because our brains didn't evolve that way. Our brains evolved to be extremely attuned to the tiger in the grass, or the remotest possibility, the tiger in the grass. And if you had an ancestor who took her mind off the potential threat to focus on smelling the flowers — Lisa: You wouldn't be here. So it makes sense that we have this hyper vigilance. When you've got a PTSD situation going on, you're really hyper vigilant, and you're in this constant state. But it is even all the little things, like in preparation for this interview yesterday, I was just so into researching and stuff. And then all night, my brains just going about Dr. Dawson and what he's doing. Like at three o'clock in the morning, I had to get up and read, keep reading one of your books because it was just, it's not leaving my brain. And then I did my breathing exercises, I did my meditation and eventually went back to sleep. So, you gave me a bit of a sleepless night last night. Dr. Dawson: I'm so sorry about that.  Lisa: But in a good way.  Dr. Dawson: At least you're reading something good. Lisa: Yeah, well  in a good way, because I was excited about all this stuff. I think it's very powerful. As a health coach, and I work with people on a daily basis. Probably the first thing that people come to me with is depression and anxiety. And then all the health problems and in follow on from that, and that seems to be what so many people are dealing with on an absolute day to day basis. In our modern world, I think that a lot of these things, not that our ancestors didn't have stressors, because they obviously did. But we have perhaps, a hundred tigers coming at us a day in the form of grumpy emails from our bosses or whatever. The amount we have to process in a day for many of us, especially people working on computers and all that sort of stuff with a thousand things coming at you all the time. And it can feel like and so, often, I say when I say to people, ‘You need to do some meditation, and you need to calm the mind. You need to get out in nature'. But they go, ‘I haven't got time. I haven't got time. I'm working 17 hours a day, and I'm a mom of three, how the hell am I going to find time to meditate?' What's your answer to that?  Dr. Dawson: Actually, you don't have time to meditate. In one piece of research, I talked about several of these in my book, Bliss Brain. One piece of research done by really forward thinking US agency called the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA, they've been at the forefront of all kinds of parts of the human potential movement for the last 50 years. They did a study of complex decision-making. Now, this isn't whether I should have grilled cheese or macaroni for lunch, this is when you have to do a scenario that's meant to solve global warming, or reduce the deficit or solve racial violence in a city. It's the really complicated problems. What they found was that when you're in a kind of flow state, generated by meditation, that people are 490 times better, percent better at solving complex problems; five times is good. Another study by the McKinsey Consulting Group found a 10 year study of high performance executives found that they are five times as productive when they're in these flow states. We're measuring flow now as people meditate, we're finding the same thing. So that even 15 minutes, 20 minutes spent at the end of the day will literally pay dividends. Another series of studies done by Harvard University found that if you do that for only an hour, meditate for an hour, you are more productive and more creative for 48 hours in the future. So you cannot afford not to meditate. The gains in productivity, problem solving ability and creativity are so enormous that if you don't spend that hour or that half hour, you are missing out on your biggest single leverage point for success in your life.  Lisa: Well, that's a really good argument for it. Have you read the book, we're talking about Steven Kotler, have you read Stealing Fire? Dr. Dawson: I love Stealing Fire, I've seen Steven Kotler several times on that and I use — and I have five books, in Bliss Brain and the acknowledgments say, ‘This book, Bliss Brain, was based, there five people really influenced me'. As Steven Kotler's Stealing Fire was one of those five.  Lisa: His book really influenced me, too. It was like, ‘Wow, this is incredible stuff, understanding how to get into the flow state'. As an athlete and my background as a ultra-endurance athlete, we did stupid distances. I would sometimes get into that flow state, and I still can't do it at will, unfortunately. Maybe I need to meditate more. But the performance that you could bring when you were in that state was far beyond what you normally could bring, and understanding how to tap into that on an actual day to day basis. I find it, too, in a previous life, I was a jeweller as well, so I was a goldsmith in head shops, retail shops. And that I would get into the flow state making jewellery when I was creative, now in painting. So when I get time, do those types of things like painting and making something, do they qualify as meditation? I mean, what actually qualifies as meditation because a lot of people seem to think you have to be sitting on your floor or with your legs crossed and humming or something, doing a chant. Is that the only way to meditate? Dr. Dawson: After World War II, there was a British engineer who worked on the radar system in the defence of Britain and his name is Maxwell Cade. And he put together a simple EG, and they had hook up spiritual masters. This EG, he was reading the five basic brainwaves — now, we know there are more than that — but he was reading the simple brainwaves. What he discovered is that he took up a Pentecostal faith healer, or a Taoist healer from China, or he hooked up a Confucian or in like a Buddhist or a Hindu or kabbalistic Jewish mystic. What he found was that even though their religious backgrounds and religious practices were totally different, they all have the same brainwave pattern. So that was the pattern of the mystics, we now knew what it was.  I talked about this in Bliss Brain,  this void of discovery, as Maxwell Cade was doing this in the 50s and 60s. And then he had a student, at a wise he had hooked out. They said, ‘Well, let's hook up other people. Let's hook up Louie Armstrong. Let's look up jazz musicians in flow'. And they found same bliss brain pattern in them. They said, ‘Well, let's hook up some high performing executives and business people who are at their peaks and scientists'. So they found that regardless of the profession, whether in flow, they all have this characteristic brainwave state. The next thing that we had to realise over the last 20 years of MRI research is, now this is crucial, we used to think that it was just one of those happy accidents. There are only a few Louis Armstrong's. There are only a few Hussein Bolts. There only are a few Swami Vivekananda's. We used to think these were special people. Once we discovered the brainwave state, some smart scientists then said, ‘Let's reverse engineer this. Let's train ordinary people to attain the same brainwave state'. And lo and behold, bliss brain, they could. We now like — I do seven, eight retreats sometimes. I'm doing virtual retreats now, but we do live retreats, usually once or twice a year. And the first day, it's going to take people, maybe we can induce that state, usually within 30 minutes. By the end of the retreat, start four minutes, they have learned to hit the state of a 10,000-hour meditation master. And they're doing it in under four minutes at the end by the end of the retreat.  So they're trainable now that we're reverse engineering them. And so one state, one way into the flow state is through meditation like the mystics do. The second way is through peak performance. Either way, you can get to that same state and be ignited by flow triggers that put you into that state, and they're reliable. They put you in that state every single time. And once you hit that state, Lisa, over and over and over again, the cool thing in bliss brain is all about addiction. For example, the one molecule that you generate in your brain in these deep states is called anandamide. It has the same chemical structure as THC, the active molecule in marijuana, docks the same receptor sites in your brain.  So you're flooding what are called your endocannabinoid receptors in your body and your brain, with natural THC, just generated by your own brain. It's a very big boost of serotonin. You're mentioning dopamine earlier, and I'm going to send you a meditation that, I've just been playing with this recently. This isn't available to the public and won't be for about two years. But Mind Valley is working on a huge new program, and we're training people in this one meditation. They literally feel the rush of dopamine they get because dopamine is the same reward system as engaged by cocaine and heroin. So they're sitting there doing this meditation. They're getting serotonin, which is the same as suicide and magic mushrooms. Same Lego structure, they're getting anandamide, THC. They're getting the same molecules that are getting in ayahuasca cocaine and heroin and alcohol, all in one meditation. And so what we're now having to do, it's so crazy, we're bringing people to these ecstatic states, when you read Rumi and St. Catherine of Sienna. I mean, these people were in absolute bliss. Essentially their brains were full of these endogenous drugs. And so, we're actually learning to generate these in people's brains. What we now have to do at the end of my meditations is you have to spend a few minutes, talk people down, talking them down off this high. They are so spaced out, they can't drive a car, they open their eyes off meditation, they don't know what planet we're on. So we spend some time doing some orienting. ‘By the way, your name is what's the name again? What time of day, is it? Which country do you live in? What's your job?' So we have to help them back into reality because they get so far out there, in just a few minutes of meditation. We're now able to do that. Lisa: Without any extraneous sort of, chemicals and things that can damage your impulse?  Dr. Dawson: No, none whatsoever.  Lisa: I have to ask this — because and this maybe outside the wheelhouse a little bit — when you're in those sorts of states, do you think you can connect? Is there a spiritual, wouldn't you know? Do you believe that there's a spiritual dimension to what's on the other side, when people pass away, when we die? Is that what the mystics and some of the spiritual healers are tapping into something higher? I mean, I know we probably can't measure this, although I've just read some books on NDEs like near death experiences and the scientific rigor that a couple of these amazing scientists have spent years studying. What's your take, just your personal take on these higher states and being able to connect perhaps, to something beyond us? Dr. Dawson: Albert Einstein wrote in the 1930s, he wrote that also the big discoveries have been made in that altered state of oneness with the universe. In chapter 15 of his book Think and Grow Rich, people think that Napoleon Hill's book from the 1930s Think and Grow Rich is about money, but it's actually about spirituality. It's about letting go. Napoleon Hill says, ‘I let go of my ordinary states, I enter an altered reality. And there I commune with St. Francis of Assisi, and Thomas Edison, and Napoleon Bonaparte, and all these great figures from the past. And that's where I download all of my answers, these questions from'. So throughout history, people have been letting go of — what I call, now in my books, I call this local reality and non-local reality. And so in meditation, for a little while, you let go of local reality, and you simply identify with the field of consciousness that is the cosmos. There's this huge information field in which we swim in it. We're like fish looking for water. When we're looking for God or spirituality, we're like the fish looking for water. We're swimming in consciousness, and our brains are not generating consciousness. Our brains are transceivers of consciousness from this universal field. They then translate this universal appeal information into what we think of as local reality. But we're making up or making it up and we change our minds. When we shift our belief systems, when we orient ourselves deliberately to non-local reality, our local reality shifts dramatically and super quickly. Our brain shift, Lisa, in one of the examples I give in Mind to Matter, I talk about a TV reporter called Graham Phillips, who has a show called Catalyst. He went on an eight-week meditation retreat. They took his whole TV crew into a lab. They did a whole work up on his brain, his body. They use the high resolution MRI to measure the volume of neurons in each part of his brain. He then learned to meditate over the next eight weeks, and they brought him back to the lab after eight weeks ran the MRI scans again and the piece of his brain that is responsible for coordinating emotional regulation across different brain regions called the dentate gyrus — it's really tiny, it's about the size of a little fingernail, but it's right in the centre of your brain. It has tentacles going all over the brain and helps regulate being upset, being irritable, being angry, being annoyed, being stressed. That, the hardware of his dentate gyrus grew 22.8% in eight weeks. When you enter a non-local reality, it's changing the hardware of your brain, and it's not taking 10,000 hours, it's doing it in just a few hours. And he then started to see very different as your transceiver, transducer changes, then it is very different results outside of yourself.  So we are pure consciousness, we happen to be the body for a little while. We won't have a body forever. What you can do is every morning meditation. You can simply let go of local reality, you become one with non-local reality. The other cool thing there is when you come down from that space, Lisa, you are so full of love. I mean, I just cry when I come down. I walked on the beach the other day after meditation, I was just weeping with gratitude. I wrote in my journal, ‘My heart is just burning with love and bursting with gratitude'. Because you come down in the states of such ecstasy and the rest of the world in your life, and it is a world of magic. You then create that magic all around you. That's how I write my books. That's how I live my life, how I do my marriage and children and friends and everything. Well, I just can't tell you how let's call this brain. It isn't like I'm feeling a little bit of hay brain, it is an ecstatic brain. I mean, in this exciting state, and becomes your new normal. Every day, it starts to change your physical brain. It starts to change the hardware of your brain, and then that starts to change your entire life. Lisa: That sounds like a piece of something that I want. And I think, everybody who is listening will be like, ‘I want what that guy's got'. Because you emanate this. I've listened to many of your lectures and your talks and your podcasts and stuff, and you emanate this beautifulness — for want of a better description — it just seems to pour out of you. That is obviously the work that you've done. What I find, I was listening on Ben Pakulski, my amazing man. You're on his podcast, that was one of the ones that I listened to. He was talking about, as an athlete, and I've had an athletic background. As a young athlete, especially, and he said he was the same, we're actually running from stuff and we were fighting and we were forcing and actually probably brutalising our bodies in order to deal with something that was going on in our brains and trying to prove things. I think a lot of athletes live in that state and it's actually encouraged to live in that state, if you have a burning and I've even propagated the state and others. Where you're using the fire of anger, of being put down, of being let down to fuel your performance. And into a certain degree that works. I mean, being obviously, an incredible bodybuilder in my life that turned into running ridiculous kilometres and across deserts and so on. I don't run any more though stupidly long distances. One of the reasons is, I don't have the massive issues in my brain anymore. I have not needing to run away from something, prove something. I'm not saying that all athletes are doing this. But I do think that there is a large number of people who are handling things through expression of this sports, and how do you change that mindset? Because I still very much have that mindset. When I go to the gym, I'm there to smash myself, I'm going to punish myself, I'm going to work hard. I'm going to push through the pain barriers because that is the culture we've grown up as athletes. You work hard. If it's not hurting, then you're probably not doing it enough. How do we change that conversation and reach still these very elite levels without having that type of a mentality? Sorry for that.  Dr. Dawson: If you aren't in flow, you will injure yourself. I remember interviewing members of American football players and these are usually very large men. They're very large men and they're very athletic, and they can jump like a metre share, vertical jump, and they reach remarkable speeds. They can start running and running really, really, really quickly, the catching. I remember this one young man said, ‘This is my million-dollar hand'. He was going to pay a lot of money as an American football star and he said ‘I've broken my fingers, at least one sometimes two or three times every season. And I can't afford to have this happen to my million-dollar hand'. After he learned EFT, after he learned to meditate, after he learned centring, getting into flow each game, he never broke another finger. He had one injury when he was just learning to meditate and do EFT. And they said, ‘Oh, it's the Achilles tendon injuries. You'll be out of the game for at least 12 weeks or maybe 16 weeks.' Three weeks later, he was fine. And so, athletes, first of all, when they're in the zone, when they're in flow, they injure themselves less and their performance goes up. It's that old Yerkes-Dodson law, currently referred to a little bit of stress is fine. Anyone has a little bit of stress. Now what I'm what I'm getting at right now, I mean, to you and me, if I didn't have a fair amount of cortisol and adrenaline, I'd be a really boring guest.  Lisa: To some degree, we want that when we're ready.  Dr. Dawson: We want that. Absolutely, but not too much of it. Lisa: And like we're in a flow state, I'm in a flow state right now. Because I feel like I am because I just love learning from people like you. I'm just, give me more, all the heroes and stuff, because I'm learning and that is for me, one of my flow states studying and science. That really helps me. But how do we change that conversation for athletes? So that they're not going out to deliberately hurt themselves, but still able to reach those. I remember one story if you don't mind sharing, I think it was with your niece? Was it Jessica or something? Dr. Dawson: Yes, Jessica.  Lisa: Do you mind sharing that story?  Dr. Dawson: Yeah, she is the national champion at rhythmic gymnastics. She meets me out there after the rank every year. So four years in a row, she was the US national champion. But again, she was pushing herself, she was collapsing inside. She was not doing it all well. On the outside, her performances look great. On the inside, she was just suffering and she eventually just couldn't go anymore, and just had withdrawn from the sport and collapsed. So that's not sustainable. What you find for the athletes who have a long-term career usually is they've learned to pace themselves. They've learned to reach that state of flow and stay there over time, they aren't pushing themselves.  The other cool thing that happens, I've done a lot of work with women who are overweight or obese. They are often at war with their bodies, they have been ignoring their bodies, turning their bodies out, hating their bodies for over four decades. They don't like exercise on the whole. And it's hard for them to exercise. Like if you're heavy, there's strain on your joints and your muscles. It's difficult to exercise, there's no great reward for exercising. So what we try to do, we don't even call that module of our program exercise, we call it joyful movement. Joyful movement. And so I say, ‘Go to the gym. Grab that maybe a 10-pound weight. And if you're just doing dumbbells and doing 10-pound weight, that's fine. If you have a goal of doing 10 reps, do as many reps as you feel good doing. Wait for the endorphin rush to kick in when you feel good. And the moment you feel bad, stop'. Now what they do is they then do eight and then they start to feel bad or stray, they stop at eight. Now they're feeling an endorphin rush today. And maybe in the next week they feel the endorphin rush, and they're doing 11. But what has then happened is that they are associating going to the gym with pleasure neurochemicals, not with pain. And then you can't keep away from exercise. I mean, once you've learned to rejig your neurochemistry, to re-associate those exercise bands, or that piece of exercise equipment, or your kayak or your mountain bike with pleasure, rather than with compulsion and pain, then you find people are highly motivated to exercise. So we retrain them to do this. It also has the effect of listening and listening to their bodies. No longer is your body a threat and a problem. It's now something to listen to. It's a signal, ‘Hey, this doesn't feel good'. You stopped right away. So in my own workouts, if I decided to do 20 reps or something, and after 17, I'm no longer feeling good. I stopped at 17, then my body is saying, ‘Wow, 17 feels wonderful'. And then you completely change your conditioning to make that exercise a joy and a pleasure. After a while, you can't stop people going to the gym, if you use your own neurochemistry in an intelligent way like that. Lisa: Well and you don't limit your performance when you do that? Because like, as an athlete you know that you have to endure a certain amount of pain to reach the next level, or that's what we've been told at least.  You have to high intensity interval training and better back in CrossFit and rah, rah rah. The gentle approach, I can see being super good for somebody who's never exercised and just wants to break into this field, does the same apply for elite athletes wanting to get to the best that they can be? Because you're up against the competition that are training in this way of brute force training type of way. Is that as well?  Dr. Dawson: Yeah that too is a way of training, one way of training is the brute way of training. The other way is the supported way of training. That's a very good question. So that way works great for people who are getting into exercise for the first time. But what about people who are at that elite level?  There is a time to push yourself and there's a time to back off. Only you know that. No one else can really tell you what that point is. But you know yourself. Like me, for example, I do a lot of mountain biking. There are sometimes where there's a long, steep hill. I'm exhausted and I think, ‘I'm exhausted, there's a steep hill ahead. I am just kind of go for it'. And it feels so exciting to do that. But if I had a coach saying, ‘Go for it'. If I was riding with somebody, and they would say, ‘Go for it'. I was trying to keep up with them. And I wasn't listening to my body, then probably I'd injured myself. That's what I have injured myself actually, in the past. So, you tune into yourself, and no one else is something no coach knew for you.  Are you meant to just put in that extra burst of effort? And then transcend yourself. We don't know for another person, we only know for ourselves. So it's really an interesting meditation. And again, it means being sensitive to yourself to know when to do that. The other thing is, it's not the same every day, we have by rhythm. Sometimes, we are just so in rhythm. That's the time to say, ‘I was planning on this 35-minute routine, I need to do the 55 minute routine instead.' And you just know that day, ‘I'm so in-sync, my body wants to do that.' You get good at reading your body and you know. I think the best lead athletes and how are some football players, the average football player in the National Football League in the US has about a 4-year career. How does someone like Tom Brady have a career that spans decades? You want these great athletes often, or great musicians or great scientists. They aren't a flash in the pan, they're sustaining peak performance over time. I think they're the ones who are pacing themselves.  Lisa: Yeah. And are the ones that are listening to the body. I think, with training athletes, I often say, ‘If you start, you have to sort of look at how has your day been? How much sleep did you get?

l am so honoured that my beautiful friend Lisa gave me this gift - of joining me for this episode. She has been an incredible help and guide this year in so many ways. The truth is though, she has inspired me in the grandest ways since we met 20 odd years ago. She is my business mentor, the person who guides me to dream bigger and shows me what authentic empathy looks like.  she is always helping others and knows the deep importance of that. She is incredibly kind, caring, generous, intelligent, creative, loving and the list can go on and on. I just hope that i do her justice in this episode. I am so incredibly grateful to know her and learn from her. Lisa - Thank you for being you and for allowing me to be apart of your life. It is such an honour.   

Challenges, obstacles and painful experiences — these are just some of things life throws our way when we least expect them. But no matter where you are in life right now, remember that you can push past the hard times. You can learn how to rise above life’s challenges. And if you feel lost, here’s a little secret: help others. Being of service to other people can help you find strength and a way out of your problems. In this episode, Robert Joseph Cappuccio, widely known as Bobby, joins us to share his inspiring story of defying hardships and helping others. It’s easier to succumb to self-sabotage and addiction. But you have the power to make your experiences an opportunity for change and hope. Bobby also shares the importance of helping others, especially as a business owner and leader. If you want to learn how to rise above trauma and be inspired to become a force of good to the world, then this episode is for you!    Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year’s time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, your goals and your lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa’s Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, a NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that is capable of boosting the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements that are of highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combat the effects of aging, while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health My  ‘Fierce’ Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover how to rise above adversities. Understand the importance of intention and knowing who you serve. Learn the difference between internal and external customers and why you need to start focusing on the former.    Resources Gain exclusive access to premium podcast content and bonuses! Become a Pushing the Limits Patron now! Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio. Connect with Bobby: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Instagram The Self-Help Antidote podcast by Bobby Cappuccio PTA Global The You Project Podcast by Craig Harper The Psychology of Winning: Ten Qualities of a Total Winner by Denis Waitley    Episode Highlights [05:49] Bobby’s Childhood Bobby was born with deformities. He was adopted by a man who had cancer.  After Bobby’s adoptive father passed, his adoptive mother entered a relationship with a cruel man. Bobby experienced all kinds of abuse throughout his childhood on top of having Tourette’s syndrome.  Doctors had to put him on Haldol, which damaged his brain.  Yet, Bobby shares that these painful experiences helped him resonate with others and thrive in his industry.  [12:48] How Bobby Got to Where He is Today  Bobby initially wanted to become a police officer for special victims.  He almost passed the written and psychological assessments, but there was an issue because of Tourette syndrome. At this time, he started working at a gym.  Bobby worked hard. Eventually, he caught the eye of the gym owner, Mitchell.  Mitchell became like a surrogate father and mentor to him. Listen to the full episode to hear how Mitchell shaped Bobby and put him on the path to success!   [20:31] Complications from Abuse and Empathy Some adults tried to intercede for Bobby when he was being abused as a kid. However, he avoided their help because he was scared of being harmed further. You can't just leave an abuser — it's difficult, and even simply attempting can hurt you. We should understand that abuse can affect anyone.  Confident and intelligent women may be particularly susceptible to abuse because they find themselves in a situation they didn’t expect.  [28:58] How Abuse Isolates People Abusers progressively isolate people by creating enemies out of strong alliances.  This can make someone lose their sense of self, making them more vulnerable and dependent on their abusers.  Assigning fault or blame to those being abused will not help anyone.  If anything, that stops people from coming forward.  [30:34] Help Others to Help Yourself Bobby learned how to rise above his traumas and negative emotions.  His mentor taught him to look beyond himself. It was only by helping others find a way out of their problems that Bobby found a way to help himself too.  He started to focus on helping people who were going through something similar to what he went through. [33:32] Focus on the Intention While working as a trainer, Bobby focused less on the transactional side of training and more on the transformational.  He wanted to help people find what they need at that moment and give them the support they need.  By focusing on his intention, he was able to get high rates of retention.  For Bobby, helping others means understanding their goals and wishes.  [36:12] Bobby’s Promotion Bobby’s exemplary performance led him to a promotion that he didn’t want. He was scared of disappointing Mitchell.   He did poorly in managing his team of trainers, which is when a consultant sat him down and gave him advice.  Mitchell also had Bobby stand up and speak in team meetings.  You need to know who you work for and who you serve. When your perspective is aligned with your work, you will bring that to every meeting and interaction.  Are you taking care of the people you need to be responsible for? Hear how Bobby figured out his answer in the full episode!  [43:14] Lessons on Leadership Companies often adopt a top-down mentality where bosses need to be followed. However, a company should not be like this. Companies are made up of people. Your business needs to care for your valuable customers, both internal and external.  Treat your team members with the same level of tenacity, sincerity and intention as your external customers. You can accomplish a lot if you hire the right person, set clear expectations and understand each individual’s motivations. Through these, you can develop the team’s capacity and channel it towards a common vision. [51:19] On Recruiting the Right People David Barton hired Bobby to work as his head of training.  Bobby asked David what two things Bobby should do to contribute the most to the company. David wanted Bobby to be a connoisseur of talent and to train them, train them and train them again.  Bobby brought this mindset throughout his career, and it’s served him well. Don’t be afraid to hire people who are smarter than you.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘When you know that there's somewhere you want to go, but you don't know exactly where that is. And you don't have complete confidence in your ability to get there. And what a good guy does is they help you go just as far as you can see.’ ‘We form and calibrate and shape our sense of identity in the context in which we navigate through the world off of one another. And when you're isolated with a distorted sense of reality, and you lose your sense of self, you become highly incapacitated to take action in this situation.’ ‘So I started focusing on things and a mission and people outside of myself. Who's going through something similar to what I have gone through, even if it's not precisely the same situation? How do I help them find their way out? And by helping them find their way out, I found my way up.’ ‘I never saved anyone; you can't change anyone but yourself. But the reason why he called me that is anytime someone would think about joining the gym...I approached it from a transformational perspective.’ ‘And your job is to create and keep your internal customer by serving them with at the very least with the same tenacity, sincerity and intention that you are serving your external customer. If you don't do that, you're going to be shit as a leader.’ ‘I think the only people who don't have impostor syndrome are imposters. Because if you're fraudulent, you wouldn't engage in the level of self-honesty, and humility, and conscientiousness, to go, “Am I fraudulent; is there something that I’m missing?”’ ‘Anything I've ever accomplished, it's totally through other people. It's because I hired people that were a lot smarter than me.’   About Robert Robert Joseph Cappuccio, or Bobby, is a behaviour change coach, author, consultant, speaker and fitness professional. He is a trainer of trainers and at the forefront of the life-altering and ever-evolving industry of coaching.  For over two decades, he has been advocating and pushing the industry-wide and individual shift of perspective in development. Behaviour change is rooted in a holistic approach, not just goals to health and fitness. With his vision, he co-founded PTA Global. It has now become a leader in professional fitness development.  No matter how successful Bobby seems, it didn't start this way. His childhood was filled with neglect, abuse and traumas that could lead anyone on the path to drinking and addiction. Bobby is no stranger to hardship and challenges, but he uses these experiences to connect and relate to others, using his past hardship as a way to help others. Bobby is also the former head of training and development at David Barton Gym, former director of professional development at the National Academy of Sports Medicine (NASM), content curator for PTontheNet, development consultant for various companies including Hilton Hotels, Virgin Active, Equinox, David Lloyd Leisure and multiple businesses nationally and abroad.  With his forward-thinking mindset and work ethic, Bobby champions practical programs that help both corporate and industry personnel, including individuals, get what they truly want. He advocates the process of change mixed in with the mantra of ‘you can be free to play’.  Interested in Bobby’s work? You can check out his website and listen to his Self-Help Antidote Podcast! Reach out to Bobby on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram.    Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends to offer them one way to rise above their trauma. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Welcome back to Pushing the Limits, your host Lisa Tamati here, and today I have a fantastic guest all the way from America again, this man goes by the name of Bobby Cappuccio. And he is a world-famous fitness professional. He trains a lot of the trainers that are out there. But Bobby has an incredible story that I really want to share with you today. So, Bobby was born with a severe facial deformity. And he also had deformed legs, and he was given up for adoption. His mother couldn't care for him, and he ended up being adopted by another man. But he had a very, very abusive rough childhood. He also developed Tourette Syndrome at the age of nine. In all this adversity you'd think like ‘oh my gosh, what sort of a life is this guy going to live’? But Bobby has had an incredible life. He's a fitness professional, as I said, he's worked in many gyms. He was the founder and co-owner of PTA Global, which does a lot of the professional fitness development. And he has devised his own strategies and ways of educating people. And his programs are just second to none. When I told my business partner, Neil, that I just interviewed Bobby Cappuccio, he's like, ‘Oh, my God, he's a legend in the space.’ So yeah, he was really a bit jealous that I got to speak to him. So I hope you enjoy this interview. It's some rough topics in there. But there's also some really great gems of wisdom. And the funny thing is what Bobby is just absolutely hilarious as well. So I do hope you enjoy it. Before we head over to the show, though, just want to let you know that we've launched a premium membership for the podcast. This is a patron membership so that you can become a VIP member of our tribe, help support the podcast. This podcast has been going now for five and a half years. It's a labour of love, I can tell you. It takes up a huge amount of my time and resources in both getting these world-class gifts for you, and also in study and research so that I can talk really, and interview very well all these crazy, amazing doctors, scientists, elite athletes and performers. So if you want to support us in keeping the show going, and like what we do in the world, and you want to keep those valuable content being able to be put out into the world, we'd love your support. And for that, we're going to give you lots of member, premium member, benefits. So, check it out at patron.lisatamati.com. That’s patron.lisatamati.com. That’s P-A-T-R-O-N dot Lisa Tamati dot com. And I just also wanted to remind you about my new anti-ageing and longevity supplement, NMN. I’ve co-worked together with molecular biologist, Dr. Elena Seranova, to make sure that you get the best quality NMN there is now. I searched all over the world for this stuff, when I learned about it, and researched about it, and how it works and what it does in the body, and there is a huge amount of science on it. A lot of it's up on our website, if you want to do a deep dive into all things NMN and the NAD precursor, then check it out. It's all about longevity. It's all about slowing down the ageing process and even reversing the ageing process. So if that's something that interests you, and you want high performance, you want help with cardiovascular health, with neuro protection, with metabolic disorders, then this is something that you should look into as well. So check that out at nmnbio.nz, that’s nmnbio.nz, and go and check that out. The supplements have been so popular that I haven't been able to keep up with orders. So on some of the orders, there is a bit of a backorder. But bear with me while we will scale up production. But go over and check that out at nmnbio.nz. Right over to the show with Bobby Cappuccio. Lisa: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today I have another very, very special guest and I was recently on this gentleman's show and now we're doing a reverse interview. I have Robert Cappuccio with me. Robert, welcome to the show. Robert Cappuccio: Oh, thank you. When you say you had a very special guest, I thought you were bringing someone else on. Lisa: You are a really special guest. Robert: Had a lot of anticipation like who is this person? What a surprise! Lisa: Well, you're a bit of an interesting character. Let's say that, throw that. Robert: Just the microphone. Lisa: No, I'm really, really interested to hear your story and to share your story with my audience, and to give a bit more of a background on you. And share gems of wisdom from your learnings from your life, because you've done some pretty cool stuff. You've had some pretty hard times and I'd like to share those learnings with my audience today. So Robert, whereabouts are you sitting at the moment, whereabouts are you in the States? Robert: Okay, so at the moment, I'm in a place called Normal Heights, which is probably a misnomer. It's not normal at all. But it's a really cool, funky neighbourhood in San Diego. Lisa: San Diego, awesome. And how’s lockdown going over there, and all of that sort of carry on? Robert: Oh, it’s great. I mean, on St. Patty's day, I've got my skull from our own green. I've just had a few whiskies. So far, so good. Lisa: This is a very interesting interview. So can you give us a little bit of background? Because you've had a very interesting, shall we say, difficult upbringing and childhood. And I wanted to perhaps start there and then see where this conversation goes a little. Robert: Is there any place you want to start, in particular? How far back do you want to go? Do you want to start from the very beginning? Lisa: Please go right at the very beginning, because you're intro to your backstory is quite interesting from the beginning, really isn't that? Robert: Okay, so I was born, which is obvious, in Manhattan, and I moved to Brooklyn early. So I was born, rather deformed. I was born with a significant facial deformity. And my lower extremities, my legs, quite never— like, if you saw my legs now, they're great. I have a great pair of legs at this moment. I'm not going to show you that because that would be a little bit rude. But my legs were kind of deformed and contorted. I had to walk with braces for the first couple of years of my life. I was given up for adoption. I'm not exactly sure, I have the paperwork on why I was given up for adoption, but I'm not really certain about the authenticity of that story. And I wasn't adopted for a while. So as an infant, I was parentless and homeless and really not well-tended to. I'm not going to get into why I say that because it's pretty disgusting. And then I was adopted. And then my adoptive father, this is kind of interesting, he had cancer, and he knew during the adoption process that he was probably not going to make it. He wanted to make sure that I found a home because nobody wanted to adopt me. Because when they came in, I was physically deformed. It's like, ‘Oh, this baby’s, it's broken. Something's wrong. Do you have a better baby’? And when he saw that, he thought, ‘Right, I've got to give this kid a home.’ So he passed. He passed when I was two. I didn't know him for more than a few months. And I hardly have any memory of him at all. My mother who adopted me, to be fair, she's developmentally disabled, and so she was a single uom with not a lot of skills, not a lot of prospects, terrified. And she basically, I think she met a guy when I was five, who I don't know if there's a diagnosis for him. He was mentally disturbed. He was a psychopath. I don't know if clinically he’s a psychopath, but that's pretty much how it felt. Lisa: You were a child experiencing this. Yeah. Robert: Yeah, I'm not like, I'm never sure in what direction to go with stuff like this. Never sure what’s valid, what's relevant. I spent my childhood in stressed positions, being woken up in the middle of the night with a pillow over my face, having bones broken consistently, and a series of rape, emotional abuse, physical abuse, and just every sort of trauma. Like imagine when I was nine years old, I was diagnosed, on top of that, with Tourette Syndrome. So I was physically deformed, going through shit like that at home. And then on top of it, I started losing control of my bodily functions. I started exhibiting tics, I started exhibiting obsessive compulsive behaviour. At some point, it was uncontrollable, like lack of control of my impulses, of the things that I would say, vulgarity. At some point, the doctors just thought that perhaps I was Scottish. Lisa: And you’re funny as well. Robert: And they put me on Haldol, which damaged my brain. That and the fact that, it's estimated, I've had at least over a half a dozen major concussions within my childhood — Lisa: From the abuse. Robert: — half a dozen to a dozen massive concussions. Yeah. Lisa: Absolute horrific start into life. Robert: When I was 10, I started binge drinking. And I thought this will help, this is a solution. But you know what? It's not. It's a little bit weird when you start a story off like this, because in some sense, it's not me being delusional, or Pollyanna, because I tend to think that I'm a little bit of a realist, sometimes too much, sometimes to the point of walking a fine edge between being hopeful and being a cynic. But I have to say that a lot of things that I experienced when I was growing up, turned out to be quite beneficial. It’s shaped me in a way and it helped me engage in certain career paths and certain activities that I don't think I really would have sought out, had this stuff not happened. So it's not like me, delusionally trying to create like all silver lining about stuff, it was shit. I understand the severity of what I went through. But I also understand where that led me. And I understand the good fortune that I had of running into certain people that resonated with me, and I resonated with them, largely in part because of my history. I don't think I would have related to these people had I not come from where I came from. Lisa: So you’re talking like people along the way that were, ended up being mentors, or teachers or friends or helping you out and through these horrific situations? Is that what you're meaning, sort of thing that would actually helped you? Because I mean, given a background like that, if you were a complete disaster and drug addict, and whatever, nobody would blame you.  You didn't have a good start in life, whatsoever. I mean, look at you now. Obviously you don't have any facial deformities, and you don't exhibit, right now, any of that stuff that actually you were and have been through. So how the hell did you get to where you are today? Because you're a very successful person, you have a very successful and a very strong influence in the world. What, how the heck do you go from being that kid, with brain problems and concussions and Tourette’s and abuse and rape and all of that, to being the person who comes across as one, number one, hilarious, very crazy and very cool?  How the heck do you get from there to there? Lisa: Just listening to, I can tell that you're someone who's highly intelligent, perceptive and an amazing judge of humour. So thank you for that. I think a lot of it was quite accidental. So I had thought when I was younger, that I wanted to be a police officer, originally. And I wanted to be involved with special victims, even before that was a TV show. Brilliant show, by the way, one of my favourite shows on TV. But even before that was the TV show, I thought, if I'm going through what I went through, and it's very hard because I had Child Services in New York City, they were called ACS. They were at my house consistently. But the problem is, I believed at a young age that my stepfather was nearly invincible, like nobody could touch him. Lisa: You were powerless against him. Yeah. Robert: And when they came to the house and like, look, I had broken bones, my arm was in a sling. A lot of times, I broke my tibia. They won't take me to the hospital because they thought they would suspect stepdad of doing it. I couldn't even walk. And these people were sitting down, said, ‘Well just tell us what happened.’ And I somehow knew that, at a critical moment, my adopted mother would falter. She would not have my back. She would rescind on everything she says. Lisa: She was frightened too, no doubt. Robert: She was frightened. I don't think she had the emotional or intellectual capacity to deal with the situation. That's all I'll say on that. But I knew once they left, I just knew they couldn't do anything, unless I was all-in. And if anything went wrong, he would kill me. So I would have to just say that, ‘Well, I fell.’ And it’s like, there's no way a fork, like I would go into camp and I would have stab wounds in the shape of a fork. And people are like, ‘What happened?’ And I said, ‘I was walking, and I tripped, and I fell onto a fork that went through my thigh and hit my femur.’ It's like, okay, that's just not possible. But I kind of knew. And I kind of felt like nobody's coming to the rescue. And I thought, if I was a police officer, and I was worked with special victims, maybe I could be the person that I always wished would show up for me. But then, there were issues with that. So I think I got like, out of a possible 100 on the police test. I did fairly well. I think I got 103, there were master credit questions. And I thought, right, yeah, I'm going. And then I took the psychological and by some weird measure, I passed, that seems crazy to me now. It kind of seems problematic. I think they need to revisit that. But then when I took the medical, and with Tourette's, it was kind of like, ‘Ah, yeah.’ It was a sticking point. So I had to petition because otherwise I would be disqualified from the employment police department. And during that time, I started working in the gyms. And when I was working the gyms, I kind of thought, there's no way I'll ever be as intelligent as some of these other trainers here. I'm just going to make up with work ethic what I lack in intellect. I would run around and just tried to do everything I could. I would try to clean all the equipment, make sure that the gym was spotless. But again, kind of like not like having all my wits about me, I would be spraying down a machine with WD-40. And what I didn't account for is, the person who was on the machine next to me, I'd be spraying him in the face with WD-40 when he was exercising. Lisa: They still do that today, by the way. The other day in the gym and the girl next to me, she was blind, and she was just spraying it everywhere. I had to go and shift to the other end of the gym, is that right, cause I don't like that stuff. Robert: I mean, in my defence, the members were very well-lubricated. And so, people would go upstairs, and like there is this fucking trainer just sprayed me in the face. And the owner would say, ‘All right, let me see who this guy is. What do you talk? This doesn’t even make sense? Who hired this guy?’ We kind of had like the old bowl, the pin. And like you could walk up top and look down into the weight room, and there I was just running around. And there was something about someone running around and hustling on the gym floor that made him interested. He's like, ‘Get this kid up into my office. Let me talk to him.’ And that forged a friendship. I spoke to him yesterday, by the way. So we've been friends for like three decades. And the owner of the gym became kind of like a surrogate dad. And he did for me what most guides do and that is when you know that there's somewhere you want to go, but you don't know exactly where that is, and you don't have complete confidence in your ability to get there. And what a good guy does is they help you go just as far as you can see, because when you get there, you'll see further. And that's what Mitchell did for me. And he was different because I have a lot of adults. So I grew up with not only extreme violence in the home, but I grew up in Coney Island. I grew up living on the corner of Shit Street and Depressing. And there was a constant violence outside the home and in school and I got picked on. And I got bullied until I started fighting, and then I got into a lot of fights. And you just have these adults trying to talk to you and it's like, you don't fucking know me. You have no idea where I come from. You can't relate to me. When you were growing up, you had a home, you were being fed. You were kind of safe, don't even pretend to relate to me. And he was this guy, who, he was arrested over a dozen times by age 30, which was not why I chose him as a mentor. But he had gone through some serious shit. And when he came out on the other end of it, he wanted to be somebody other than his history would suggest he was going to be, and he tried harder at life than anybody I had ever met. So one, I could relate to him, I didn't think he was one of these adults who are just full of shit. I was impressed at how hard he tried to be the person he wanted to be. So there was this mutual respect and affinity, instantly. Lisa: Wow. And he had a massive influence. And we all need these great coaches, mentors, guides, surrogate dads, whatever the case may be, to come along, sometimes in our lives. And when they do, how wonderful and special that is, and someone that you could respect because like you say, I've had a wonderful childhood. In comparison to you, it was bloody Disneyland, and so I cannot relate to some of those things. And I have my own little wee dramas, but they were minor in comparison to what you experienced in the world. So how the heck can I really help you out if you're a young kid that I'm trying to influence. And not that you have to go through everything in order to be of help to anybody, but just having that understanding that your view, your worldview is a limited, privileged background. Compared to you, my background is privileged. Robert: Well, I don't think there's any ‘compared to you’. I think a lot of my reaction to adults around me who tried to intercede — one, if your intercession doesn't work, it's going to get me hurt, bad, or it's going to get me killed. There have been times where I was hung out of an 18-storey window by my ankles. Lisa: You have got to be kidding me. Robert: Like grabbing onto the brick on the side of the building. I can't even say terrified. I don't even know if that encapsulates that experience as a kid. But it's like you don't understand what you can walk away from once you feel good about interceding with this poor, unfortunate kid. I cannot walk away from the situation that you're going to create. So it was defensive mechanism, because pain is relative. I mean, like, you go through a divorce, and you lose this love and this promise, and somebody comes along, ‘Oh there are some people in the world who never had love, so you should feel grateful’. You should fuck off because that's disgusting. And that is totally void of context. I don't think somebody's pain needs to compare to another person's pain in order to be relevant. I think that was just my attitude back then because I was protecting my existence. I've really changed that perspective because, like, my existence isn't threatened day to day anymore. Lisa: Thank goodness. Robert: So I have a different take on that. And I understand that these adults were well meaning, because I also had adults around me, who could have probably done something, but did nothing. And I don't even blame them because my stepfather was a terrifying person. And the amount of work and energy, and the way the laws, the structure, and how threatening he was, I don't blame them. And me? I’ll probably go to prison. But I don't blame them for their inaction. Lisa: Yeah, and this is a problem. Just from my own experiences, like I said, this is not even in childhood, this is in young adulthood, being in an abusive relationship. The dynamic of the stuff that's going on there, you're frightened to leave. You know you are going to be in physical danger if you try and leave. So, I've been in that sort of a position but not as a child. But still in a position where people will think, ‘Well, why don't you just go?’ And I’m just like, ‘Have you ever tried to leave someone who's abusive? Because it's a very dangerous thing to do.’ And you sometimes you’re like, just, you can't, if there's children involved, even, then that's even worse. And there's complicated financial matters. And then there's, whatever the case may be or the circumstances that you're facing, it's not cut and dried. And as an adult, as a powerful woman now, I wouldn't let myself be in a position like that. But I wasn't that back then. And you weren't because well, you were a child. See, you're even more. Robert: I just want to comment on that a little bit. And this is not coming from clinical expertise. This is just coming from my own interpretation experience. I think, obviously, that when a child goes through this, you would think, ‘Okay, if this started at age five, what could you have done?’ But a lot of times we do look at, let's say, women who are in severe domestic violence situations, and we say, ‘Well, how could you have done that? How could you have let somebody do that to you’? And I think we need to really examine that perspective. Because powerful, confident, intelligent women might be especially susceptible. Lisa: Apparently, that’s the case. Robert: Because you have a track record, and you have evidence to support that you are capable, and you're intelligent, and you find yourself in a situation that you didn't anticipate. And I think it's easier to gaslight someone like that. Because it's like, ‘How could I have had a lapse — is it me?’  And it creeps up on you, little by little, where you doubt yourself a little bit more, a little bit more, and then you become more controlled and more controlled. And then your perspective on reality becomes more and more distorted. So I think we have to be very careful when an adult finds themselves, yes, in that position, saying, ‘Well, why didn't you just leave? How could you have let yourself very easily?’ It can happen to anyone, especially if you have a strong sense of confidence and you are intelligent, and because it becomes unfathomable to you, how you got into that situation. Lisa: Looking back on my situation, which is years and years ago now, and have no consequences to the gentleman that I was involved with, because I'm sure he's moved on and hopefully, not the same. But the fact that it shifted over many years, and the control shifted, and the more isolated you became. I was living in a foreign country, foreign language, unable to communicate with my family, etc., etc. back then. And you just got more and more isolated, and the behaviour’s become more and more, more radical ways as time goes on. It doesn't stop there. Everybody's always lovely at the beginning. And then, as the power starts to shift in the relationship — and I've listened to a psychologist, I’ve forgotten her name right now, but she was talking about, she works with these highly intelligent, educated women who are going through this and trying to get out of situations where they shouldn't be in. And she said,  ‘This is some of the common traits. They're the types of people who want to fix things, they are the types of people who are strong and they will never give up.’ And that is actually to their detriment, in this case. And I'm a very tenacious type of person. So, if I fall in love with someone, which you do at the beginning, then you're like, ‘Well, I'm not giving up on this person. They might need some help, and some, whatever’. And when you're young, you think you can change people, and you can fix them. And it took me a number of years to work out and ‘Hang on a minute, I haven't fixed them, I’ve screwed myself over. And I've lost who I am in the process.’ And you have to rebuild yourself. And like you and like your case is really a quite exceptionally extreme. But like you, you've rebuilt yourself, and you've created this person who is exceptional, resilient, powerful, educated, influential — Robert: And dysfunctional. Lisa: And dysfunctional at the same time. Hey, me, too. Robert: And fucked up in 10 different ways. Lisa: Yeah. Hey, none of us have got it right. As our mutual friend, Craig Harper would say, ‘We're just differing degrees of fucked-up-ness’. Robert: That would be spot on. Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And totally, some of the most high functioning people that I get to meet, I get to meet some pretty cool people. There's hardly any of them that don't have some area in their life where they've got that fucked-up-ness that's going on, and are working on it, because we're all works in progress. And that's okay. Robert: The thing you said that I really caught is you lost your sense of self, and the isolation. And that is what abusers do, is progressively they start to isolate, and create enemies out of strong alliances and allies. And when you lose your sense of self, and you're so isolated — because as much as we want to be strong and independent, we are highly interdependent, tribal people. We form and calibrate, we shape our sense of identity and the context in which we navigate through the world off of one another. And when you're isolated with a distance sense of reality and you lose your sense of self, you become highly incapacitated to take action in this situation. And you develop, I think what Martin Seligman, called learned helplessness. And I think assigning fault or blame or accusation either to yourself or doing that to somebody else, not only does that not help, it stops people from coming forward. Because it reinforces the mental state that makes them susceptible to perpetual abuse in the first place. Lisa: Yeah, it's so true. So how did you start to turn around? So you meet Mitchell, Mitchell was his name, and he started to be a bit of a guiding light for you and mentor you, and you're in the gym at this phase stage. So, what sort of happened from there on and? So what age were you at this point, like, your teenage years, like teenagers or? Robert: I met Mitchell  when I was like 19 years old. And what he allowed me to do, and it wasn't strategies, he allowed me to focus outside of myself. Because every emotion, every strong emotion you're feeling, especially in a painful way, resides within you. So if you feel a sense of despair, or you feel disgust, or loneliness, or isolation, or any type of pain, and you would look around your room and go, ‘Well, where's that located? Where's my despair? I searched my whole desk, I can't find it’. It's not there. It's not in your outer world. It's your inner world. And what he gave me the ability to do is say, ‘Okay. I grew up physically deformed. And despite everything I was going through, my physical deformities were one of the most painful things’. But the irony, more painful than anything else because you could see me out in the shops and go, ‘Okay, this is a person who has been severely physically sexually abused, who's suffered emotional trauma’. You could see that as I walk through the aisles, because you say, ‘Okay, this is someone who doesn't look right. This is someone who —', and I can see the look of disgust on people's face when they saw me physically. And then there’s nowhere to hide, you couldn’t mask that. I started thinking, ‘Well, what about people who feel that about their physical appearance and they don't require surgery? What are they going through? And how do I focus more on them? How do I take a stand for that person? What's the areas of knowledge? What are the insights? What are the resources that I can give these people to be more resourceful in finding a sense of self and finding their own way forward?’ Lisa: Being okay with the way that they are, because it must be just— Robert: People are okay with the way they are, seeing an ideal version of themselves in the future. And engaging the behaviours that helps them eventually bridge that gap, where their future vision, at some point, becomes their current reality. So I started focusing on things and a mission and people outside of myself, who's going through something similar to what I have gone through, even if it's not precisely the same situation? How do I help them find their way out? And by helping them find their way out, I found my way up. Lisa: Wow, it's gold. And that's what you ended up doing then, and within the gym setting, or how did that sort of work out from there? Robert: Well, I became a trainer. And in the beginning, I was like an average trainer. But I became, what Mitchell called, like the person who saved people. I never saved anyone; you can't change anyone but yourself. But the reason why he called me that is, anytime someone would think about joining the gym, if they would sit down with someone, they approached it from, ‘Well, what can we do? Can we give you a couple of extra months? Can we give you a guest pass to invite some —‘. They approached it from a transactional perspective, where when I sat down with these people, I approached it from a transformational perspective. ‘What did you want most? What do you want most in your life in this moment? And what hasn't happened? What missed? What was the disconnect? Where have we failed? What did you need that was not fulfilled in your experience here and how do we give you those resources? How do we support you going forward?’ And it was also like, ‘Look, if you want to leave, we totally respect that. You've given us a chance to help you. And obviously, the fault was ours. I never blamed anyone. But if you had the chance to do it again, what would have made the difference? And give us that opportunity’. It’s like, ‘Oh, this person is like a retention master’. It's not that, my focus wasn't in retention, it was the intention rather, to relate to the individual in front of me.  Lisa: I’m hearing about the actual person and their actual situation and their actual wishes and goals, rather than, how can I sweeten the deal so you don't leave? Robert: Precisely, and that had some unintended consequences, because it put me in a bad situation, because I got promoted against my will. And I didn’t want to get promoted. And I thought, ‘I'm just getting a reputation for being somewhat good in my current job. And now they're going to promote it to my level of incompetence. And now I'm going to disappoint Mitchell, he's going to find out this kid's actually an idiot, he's a fraud — ‘I was wrong.’ And the one person who believed in me, I'm going to lose his trust and his faith, and that's going to be damaging.’ So me being promoted into management led to a series of unpredictable events that shaped my entire career. Lisa: Okay, tell us about that. Tell us about it. So you were pushed out of your comfort zone, because you just got a grip on this thing, the crazy worker. Robert: So Mitchell had a consultant, and his name was Ray. His name still is Ray, coincidentally. And he said, ‘Yeah, I think you should promote Bobby, just a small promotion to head trainer. Not like fitness manager, just head trainer’. And when they approached me, it was almost like they told me like, I had to euthanise my pet. It was horrible. I was not excited about this. I was like, ‘Oh, thanks. But no, thanks. I love where I'm at.’ Lisa: Yep. ‘I didn’t want to grow.’ Robert: Well, they had a response to that. They said, ‘There’s two directions you can go in this company, you could go up, or you can go out’. And they fired me that day. Lisa: Wow! Because you wouldn’t go up? Robert: They’re like, ‘You've chosen out. And that's okay. That's your decision’. And I was devastated. Like that my identity is connected to that place. And on my way out the door, Mitchell's like, ‘Come into my office.’ And he’s sitting across from me, and he kind of looked like a very muscular, like an extremely muscular version of Burt Reynolds at the time, which was very intimidating, by the way. And he puts his feet up on the desk, and he's leaning back, and he's eating an apple. He says, ‘You know, I heard a rumour that you're recently unemployed. And so I would imagine, your schedules opened up quite a bit this week. You know, coincidentally, we're interviewing for a head trainer position. You might want to come in and apply because you've got nothing to lose’. What a complete and total cock. And I say that, with love, gratitude, gratitude, and love. So I showed up — Lisa: Knew what you needed. Robert: I remember, I showed up in a wrinkly button-down shirt, that is not properly ironed, which was brought to my attention. And I got the job. And I was the worst manager you've ever met in your life because first of all, my motivation was not to serve my team. My motivation was not to disappoint Mitchell. And that was the wrong place for your head to be in, if you have the audacity to step into a leadership position. Whether you tell yourself you were forced into it or not, fact of the matter is ‘No, I could have chosen unemployment, I would have done something else. I chose this. Your team is your major responsibility.’ And that that perspective has served me in my career, but it well, it's also been problematic. So I had people quitting because for me, I was in the gym at 5am. And I took two-hour breaks during the afternoon and then I was in the gym till 10 o'clock at night, 11 o'clock at night. I expected you to do the same thing. So, I didn't understand the worldview and the needs and the aspirations and the limitations and the people on my team. So people started quitting. I started doing horribly within my position. And then Mitchell brought in another consultant, and he gave me some advice. I didn't take it as advice at the time, but it changed everything. And it changed rapidly. This guy's name is Jamie, I don’t remember his surname. But he sat me down and he said, ‘So I understand you have a little bit of trouble’. Yeah, no shit, man. Really perceptive. ‘So, just tell me, who do you work for?’ So, ‘I work for Mitchell’. He said, ‘No, no, but who do you really work for?’ I thought, ‘Oh. Oh, right. Yeah. The general manager of the gym. Brian, I work for Brian’. So nope, who do you really work for? I thought it must be the fitness manager, Will. So, ‘I work for Will’. He’s like, ‘But who do you work for?’ And now I'm starting to get really irritated. I'm like, yeah, this guy's a bit thick. I don't know how many ways I can explain, I've just pretty much named everybody. Who do you reckon I work for? He said, ‘No, you just named everyone who should be working for you?’ Lisa: Yeah, you got that one down. Robert: ‘Have a single person you work for? Who are your trainers?’  He said, ‘Here, let me help you out. Imagine for a second, all of your trainers got together, and they pooled their life savings. They scraped up every bit of resource that they could to open up a gym. Problem is, they're not very experienced. And if they don't get help, they're going to lose everything. They're going to go out of business. They go out and they hire you as a consultant. In that scenario, who do you think you'd work for?’ I was like, ‘Oh, I'm the one that's thick. I've worked for them’. Because in every interaction you have, it made such a dip because it sounds counterintuitive. But he said, ‘In every meeting and every interaction, whether it's a one-on-one meeting, team meeting, every time you approach someone on the floor to try to help them, or you think you're going to correct them, come from that perspective and deliver it through that lens’. And things started to change rapidly. That was one of two things that changed. The second thing that changed is Mitchell believed, because he would listen to self-help tapes, it inspired him. So he would have me listen to self-help tapes. And he believed that oration in front of a group public speaking was culturally galvanising. And in a massive team meeting where we had three facilities at the time, where he brought in a couple of hundred people for a quarterly meeting. He had me stand up and speak. Oh, man. I know you've done a lot of podcasting and you do a lot of public speaking in front of audiences. You know that experience where you get up to speak but your brain sits right back down? Lisa: Yeah. And you're like, as Craig was saying the other day, ‘It doesn't matter how many times you do it, you're still absolutely pecking yourself.’ Because you want to do a really good job and you go, ‘This is the day I'm going to screw it up. I'm going to screw it up, even though I've done it 10,000 times. And I’ve done a brilliant job. Then it’s coming off.’ Robert: If you’re not nervous in front of an audience, you've got no business being there. That is very disrespectful. I agree with that. I mean, this is coming from, in my opinion, one of the greatest speakers in the world. And I'm not just saying that because Craig's my mate, and he gives me oatmeal every time I come out to Melbourne. I'm saying that because he's just phenomenal and authentic in front of a room. But I had that experience and I'm standing up brainless in front of the room. And as I start to realize that I am choking. I'm getting so nervous. Now this is back in the 1990s, and I was wearing this boat neck muscle shirt that said Gold's Gym, and these pair of workout pants that were called T-Michaels, they were tapered at the ankles, but they ballooned out. You know the ones I’m talking about? And I had a lot of change in my pocket. And all you hear in the room, as my knees were shaking, you can hear the change rattling, which wasn't doing anything for my self-confidence. And just instantly I was like, ‘Right, you're either going to epically fail at your job right here. Or you are going to verbatim with intensity, recite word for word, like everything you remember from Dennis Waitley’s Psychology of Winning track for positive self-determination’. Sorry, Dennis, I did plagiarize a bit. And I said it with passion. Not because I'm passionate, because I knew if I didn't say it with fierce intensity, nothing but a squeak will come out of my mouth, Lisa: And the jingle in the pocket Robert: And the jingle in the pocket. And at the end of that, I got a standing ovation. And that’s not what moved me. Lisa: No? Robert: What moved me was weeks ago, I was clueless in my job. I got this advice from Jamie on, ‘You work for them. They are your responsibility. They are entrusted to you. Don’t treat people like they work for you.’ Now I had this, this situation happened. And my trainers avoided me a month ago when I got promoted. But now they were knocking on my office door, ‘Hey, can I talk to you? Would you help me’? And it just clicked. The key to pulling yourself out of pain and suffering and despair is to focus on lifting up others. Lisa: Being of service. Robert: That was it. I thought I could be good at something. And what I'm good at is not only, it's terrifying before you engage in it, but it's euphoric after, and it can help other people. I can generate value by developing and working through others. Lisa: This is like gold for management and team leaders and people that are in charge of teams and people is, and I see this around me and some of the corporations where get to work and consultants stuff is this was very much this top-down mentality. ‘I'm the boss. You’re doing what I say because I'm the boss’. And that doesn't work. It might work with 19-year-olds who have no idea in the world. Robert: It reeks of inexperience. You think you're the boss because you've had certain qualities, and that's why you got promoted — do what I say. You are a detriment to the company — and I know how many people are fucked off and calling bullshit. I don't care. I mean, not to toot my own horn. Like anything I've ever accomplished, I've learned I have accomplished through hiring the right people and having a team that's better than me. But I’ve been in so many management positions, from the very bottom to the very top of multiple organizations I've consulted all over the world, you are only as good as your team. And to borrow from the late great Peter Drucker, ‘The purpose of a business is to create and keep a customer. And your most valuable customer’s your internal customer, the team that you hire. Because unless you are speaking to every customer, unless you are engaging with every customer complaint, unless you are engaging in every act of customer service on your own —' which means your business is small, which is fine. But if it's a lot, you're not ‘— you could scale that, it is always your team. And your job is to create and keep your internal customer by serving them with, at the very least, with the same tenacity, sincerity and intention that you are serving your external customer. If you don't do that, you're going to be shit as a leader. And honestly, I don't give a fuck what anybody thinks about that. Because I have heard so many opinions from people who are absolute — they've got a ton of bravado, they beat their chest, but they are ineffective. And it's extraordinary what you can accomplish when you know how to be, number one, hire the right person. Number two set expectations clearly — clearly, specifically. Number three, understand what motivates each individual, as an individual person and as a team, and then develop that team's capacity individually and collectively to channel that capability towards the achievement of a common vision, of a common monthly target. Period. Lisa: Wow. So that's just, that’s one whole lot going on in one. Robert: That is leadership in a nutshell. Lisa: Yeah. And this is the tough stuff because it's easier said than done. I mean, I'm trying to scale our businesses and grow teams and stuff. And number one, hiring the right people is a very big minefield. And number two, I've started to realize in my world that there's not enough for me to go around. I can't be in 10 places and 10 seats at once. You're getting overwhelmed. You're trying to help the universe and you're one person, so you're trying to replicate yourself in the team that you have, and provide the structure. And then you also need those people where you're weak, like I'm weak at certain aspects. I'm weak at technology, I'm hopeless at systems. I know my weaknesses. I know my strengths, so. Robert: I resemble that comment. Lisa: Yeah, In trying to get those people where you, that are better than you. Not as good, but better than you. And never to be intimidated because someone is brilliant at something. They're the ones you want on your team, because they are going to help with your deficits. And we've all got deficits and blind spots and things that we're not good over we don't love doing. And then trying to develop those team members so that you're providing them and treating them respectfully, looking after them, educating them. And that takes a lot of time too, and it's really hard as a smallish business that's trying to scale to go from there wearing a thousand hats. And a lot of people out there listening will be in similar boats as ours, like, wearing a hundred hats and trying to do multitasking, getting completely overwhelmed, not quite sure how to scale to that next level, where you've got a great team doing a whole lot of cool stuff. And then realizing the impact that you can have as tenfold or a hundredfold. Robert: Absolutely. And I'm not really a good business person, per se, like I've owned a few businesses myself, I've worked within quite a few businesses. And I think what I'm good at, and this goes back to another person that I worked for shortly after Gold's Gym. So Gold's Gym was sold, that's a whole story you don't need to get into. This is an interesting guy. I was doing consulting, I was just going out and doing public speaking, I had independent clients. And I crossed paths with an individual named David Barton. This is someone you should get on your podcast. Talk about an interesting individual. And David Barton had the one of the most unique and sexy edgy brands in New York City. And that's when you had a lot of competition with other highly unique, sexy, edgy brands. And he was the first person — he coined the phrase, ‘Look better naked,’ it was actually him. That's the guy. It was on the cover of New York Magazine. I mean, he was constantly, like his club in Vogue, at Harper's Bazaar, he ended up hiring me as his head of training. And his company at that time in the 1990s, which is quite the opposite of the mentality, the highest position you could ever achieve in his company was trainer. It was all about the training, and it made a difference culturally, and it made a difference in terms of like we were probably producing more revenue per club and personal training at that point than almost anyone else in the world, with the exception of maybe Harpers in Melbourne. So this is how far me and Craig go back actually. Lisa: Wow. It’s that right. Robert: Yeah, because we had found out about each other just a few years after that. Lisa: Some of that Craig Harper. Robert: Craig Harper, yeah, when he had his gyms. So we were introduced by a guy named Richard Boyd, a mutual friend who's like, you got to meet this guy, because he's doing what you were doing. And it all started when I went into David Barton gym, and I just thought, this is a different world. This is another level. Am I in over my head? So again, it was that doubt, it was that uncertainty. Lisa: The imposter syndrome.  Robert: But I did. Yeah, and I think we all have, and I think the only people who don't have imposter syndrome are imposters. Because if you're fraudulent, you wouldn't engage in the level of self-honesty, and humility and conscientiousness, to go ‘Am I fraudulent, is there something that I’m missing’? Only a con artist never considers whether or not they're fraudulent, it's ‘Does that keep you stuck? Or does that help you to get better and more authentic, more sincere?’ So I had the presence of mind to ask David a very important question. And I said, ‘David, if there was like two things, or three things that I can do in this company, exceedingly well, what two or three things would best serve the member, the company as a whole, and of course, my career here with you?’ And David leaned back and he did one of these dozens of things he gave me, literally. And he sat there for — it must have been like five seconds — it felt like an eternity and I'm thinking, ‘Oh my god, that that was the stupidest question I could possibly ask. He probably thinks I should have this whole, like sorted out. After all, he hired me, or am I going to get sacked today?’ And then I was like, ‘I can't get sacked. My house just got ransacked by the FBI’. That was a totally different story. He comes, he leans forward. And he says, ‘Two things. Two things you got to do. Number one,’ and a paraphrase, but it was something very similar to, ‘I want you to be a connoisseur of talent, like a sommelier is a connoisseur of wine. I want you to hire interesting, and great trainers. That's number one.’ And he just sat there again. And I'm like, I think it was a power move. Looking back, it was a power move. Lisa: Using the silence. Robert: What’s number two, David? And he said, ‘Train the shit out of them. And when you're done with that, here's number three, train them again. Number four, train them again. Number five, train them again.’ And that stuck with me. And a year later, I wound up leaving David Barton, and I come back to work with him periodically over the course of many years, and I personally loved the experience every time. We’re still good friends today. And I went to NASM, and I became a presenter, senior presenter, and eventually I became the director of professional development for the National Academy of Sports Medicine. And I brought that with me. And trust me, there was times when I was quite a weirdo, because I thought quite differently than then a team of educators and clinicians. But it helped, and it served me well, and served me throughout my life. So I am shit at so many aspects of business. But I am really good, and probably because I'm very committed to recruiting people with the same level of insight, precision, intuition and sophistication that a sommelier would approach a bottle of wine. Lisa: Oh, I need to talk to you about my business at some point. I need the right people because I keep getting the wrong one. Robert: That, I'm very confident I can help. When it comes to recruiting and selection and hiring and training and development, that is my world. Lisa: That’s your jam. Robert: And because anything I've ever accomplished, it's totally through other people. It's because I hired people that were a lot smarter than me. It's funny because that's another piece of advice I got way back in my Gold Gym days, where one of the consultants was in the room and said, ‘You'll be successful to the degree that you're able and willing to hire people that are more intelligent than you’. And Mitchell quipped, ‘That shouldn’t be too hard for you, Bob’. Okay, yeah. Thanks, Mitchell. Yeah. Lisa: Oh, yeah, nice, friend. You need those ones, don’t you? Hard case ones. Hey, Bobby, this has been a really interesting and I feel like we probably need a part two because we haven't even touched on everything because you've had an incredible career. And I just look at you and how you how far you've come and there must have been so much that you haven't even talked about, have been all the really deep stuff that you went through as a child — Robert: No, I've told you everything. There's nothing else. Lisa: But how the hell did you actually turn your mindset around and how did you fix yourself and get yourself to the point you know where you are today, but I think we've run out of time for today. So, where can people engage with what you do and where can people find you and all of that sort of good stuff? Robert: Okay, well, I just started my own podcast. It's decent. Lisa: Which is awesome because I've been on. Robert: So if you are looking for, like one of the most dynamic, interesting and inspiring podcasts you've ever encountered, go to The You Project by Craig Harper. If you still have time after that, and you're looking for some decent podcast material, go to The Self Help Antidote, that is my podcast. And I'm on Facebook. Social media is not really where I live. It's not where I want to live. It's not where I like to live, but I'm there. I'm on Facebook. I mean the rest of the older generation, yeah, piss off kids. And I'm on Instagram. I'm occasionally on LinkedIn, but not really. I will be on Clubhouse because I got to find the time Lisa: What the hel

We all want good health and a long life. That's why we subscribe to health fads that offer promising benefits to our bodies. But, for this same reason, we tend to neglect foundational health principles. While these are easily accessible to us, there is still so much we can learn and get from them. By going back to the basics, we can take better care of our health, prevent diseases and boost longevity. Dr Elizabeth Yurth joins us in this episode to talk about the importance of cellular health in longevity. She gives an overview of the benefits of foundational health principles in the disease process. Dr Yurth delves deeper into fasting, autophagy and the specifics of spermidine. If you want to know more about slowing the ageing process and boosting longevity, this episode is for you.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join their free live webinar on epigenetics.   Online Coaching for Runners Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Consult with Me If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries,  to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   My Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are Three Reasons Why You Should Listen to the Full Episode: Find out the importance of hormone metabolisation and cell fixing in preventing and addressing diseases. Learn the importance of going back and forth between different health routines. Discover the benefits of spermidine in improving health.   Resources Pushing the Limits Episode 181: Genetic Predisposition and Understanding Your Hormones Join the Human Optimization Academy for FREE at Boulder Longevity Institute! Bulletproof Radio Abundance 360 Low Protein Intake is Associated with a Major Reduction in IGF-1, Cancer, and Overall Mortality in the 65 and Younger but Not Older Population PubMed Seed Scientific Research and Performance Boulder Longevity Institute’s Facebook page       Episode Highlights [01:54] Dr Yurth’s Practise and Boulder Longevity Institute Dr Yurth has been practising orthopaedic medicine for 30 years. Fifteen years into her career, she became frustrated with the band-aid solution process in orthopaedics. She started looking at the way to stop this downhill decline. She did a fellowship in functional and regenerative medicine and incorporated it into her practice.  However, short consultation sessions for such proved to be inefficient, so they opened the Boulder Longevity Institute. They started the Human Optimization Academy to educate people about orthopaedic regenerative care. Every single disease comes down to the mitochondrial level that requires systemic treatment. [07:16] Foundational Health Principles There are a lot of cool fads on taking care of your health. However, we have to start with the basic principles. Metabolising the hormones is very important. A urine metabolite test determines the pathways where hormones are going. Simple lab studies, including CBC and CMP, can give an estimation of longevity comparable with telomere length testing and DNA methylation. Looking at albumin can predict longevity. Listen to the full episode to have an in-depth look at how albumin works! You have to train people to go back to understanding these foundational principles. [21:33] An Overview on Cellular Health Every organ system comes back to cellular dysfunction. When you have damaged mitochondria, the cells are in an altered state of energy. Senescent cells are cells that sit in the body without doing anything. Zombie cells become toxic to the cells around them. To heal any disease, we have to clean out the bad cells. They use fasting in the disease process because it causes autophagy. The biggest mistake people make is to try to have many antioxidants and NAD in the body. To clear out the bad stuff, Dr Yurth and her team use rapamycin and spermidine. Tune in to the full show to know more about these cell-restoring methods! [27:45] Fasting and Autophagy Mimetics There’s a lot of questions about fasting that even experts have no answer to. Autophagy is self-eating. You can have autophagy without being in ketosis. One of the benefits of fasting is oxidative stress. Taking resveratrol reduces this benefit because it has a potent antioxidant. You don’t want to be doing any protocol and patterns continuously. You have to go back and forth between different things. A balance between mTOR and NPK keeps things in a homeostatic state. [35:08] Muscle Building and Longevity Muscle building is not the key to good health and longevity. The genes that stayed in our body’s genetic evolution are those that will help us survive famines. While research has shown that low IGF people live long, they don’t have good energy. It's about repeatedly bringing IGF levels down and building it up. The cells need a push and pull for them to become healthier. [38:36] All About Spermidine Spermidine is present in every single living organism. It is prominent in our guts and in some food, with the richest source being wheat germ extract. The major research of spermidine is its benefit in cardiovascular diseases. Myeloperoxidase is an inflammatory cardiovascular marker, of which they have seen high levels in post-COVID patients.  Research has also found that spermidine can lower Lp(a). Immune system support is another place where spermidine has been studied. Spermidine, along with the peptide thymosin alpha 1, can improve lymphocytes. The early studies in spermidines are on hair growth. It affects the body's overall regeneration process. [46:29] Using Spermidine Starting from a low level, it takes a while for spermidine to make you feel better. One of the things Dr Yurth did when she started spermidine was to monitor her heart rate variability (HRV) and her Oura ring. HRV is predictive of almost every disease state. Getting a higher dose of spermidine comes at a great cost. But it's putting your health at a priority. [50:35] Why You Should Trust the Research Fixing the cells at the very base level takes time. Dr Yurth is part of the Seed Scientific Research and Performance along with 25 mastermind doctors. Through this, they weed out what works and what doesn’t. If you want to learn more about how Dr Yurth applies her practise, listen to the full episode! There are a lot of inexpensive things you can do that are effective. If it doesn’t respond, that’s the time to pull up the bigger stakes. The Boulder Longevity Institute bridges the gap between research to save lives.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘It is not that you run too much; you wear your knees. It's that there is a disease process going on in your body that is now making your joints wear out, and so you have to treat it systemically, or you're not going to make any progress’. ‘The cool stuff is cool, and there's a place for it in all of us. But you still got to start at the basic stuff’. ‘There's so much information in these really simple lab studies that you've gotten from your primary care doctor’. ‘I think even the functional medicine space sort of went beyond the step of looking at some very basic things that are inherent to life’. ‘You're never going to train doctors; you've got to train people’. ‘There's not really anybody who has one disease that does not have something else wrong; it's just impacted lots of times in different ways’. ‘We want to go back and forth between different things. And we want to make sure we're cycling. Any of you are staying on the same patterns all the time, that's not serving you’.   About Dr Elizabeth Dr Elizabeth Yurth is the co-founder of the Medical Director of the Boulder Longevity Institute.  She is a faculty member and a mastermind physician fellow in Seeds Scientific Research and Performance (SSRP). She specialises in Sports, Spine, and Regenerative Medicine and has double board-certification in Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation and Anti-Aging/Regenerative Medicine. She has a dual-Fellowship in Anti-Aging, Regenerative and Functional Medicine (FAARFM) and Anti-Aging and Regenerative Medicine (FAARM). Dr Yurth is also an active athlete and has worked with numerous sports teams at collegiate and professional levels. She does consultations with high-level athletes to optimise performance and aid recovery. If you wish to connect with Dr Yurth, you may visit her Instagram.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can include more amino acids in protein in their diet. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati. Brought to you by lisatamati.com. You’re listening to Pushing The Limits with Lisa Tamati. Fantastic to have you guys back with me again. I hope you're ready and buckled down for another great interview. I really do get some amazing people and this lady is no exception. So today I have Dr. Elizabeth Yurth, who I originally heard on the Bulletproof Radio Podcast with Dave Asprey, who I love and follow. And she is a longevity expert. But Dr. Yurth is also a medical director of the Boulder Longevity Institute, which she founded in 2006. And she's double board certified in physical medicine and rehabilitation and anti-ageing and regenerative medicine. So she's a specialist in sports, spine and regenerative medicine.  She's an orthopaedic surgeon, and she's also heavily into the whole regenerative stuff. So from stem cells to different supplements to working with the latest and technologies that are available to help us slow down the ageing process and to help people regain function. So it was a really super exciting episode and I'm going to have Dr. Elizabeth on a couple of times. She's also a faculty member of the 25 mastermind physicians fellows at the Seeds Scientific Research & Performance group, which allows you to stay abreast and teach others in the emerging cellular medicine field. She's also been an athlete herself and works with numerous sports teams and both of the collegiate and professional levels. She's a wonderful person and I'm really excited to share this interview with her.  Before we head over to talk to Dr. Yurth, I just want to let you know about my new anti-ageing supplement. Now this has been designed and developed by Dr. Elena Seranova, who is a molecular biologist who is also coming on the podcast very shortly. And this is an NMN. It has nicotinamide mononucleotide. I recently read the book Lifespan by Dr. David Sinclair, who's a Harvard Medical School researcher in longevity and anti-ageing. And he's been in this field for the last 30 years. And his book was an absolute mind blowing, real look into the future of what we're going to be able to do to stop ourselves ageing to slow the ageing process down. And very importantly, increase, not only our lifespan, but our health span so that we know we stay healthy for as long as possible and don't have this horrific decline into old age that most of us expect to have.  So Dr. Sinclair in this book talks about what he takes and one of these things is an NAD precursor called nicotinamide mononucleotide. I searched all over the place for this. I couldn't get it in New Zealand when I was searching for it. And so I went and found Dr. Elena Seranova, who has developed this product and I'm now importing that into New Zealand. So if you want to find out all the science behind it, please head on head over to nmnbio.nz. That's N-M-N bio dot N - Z and all the information is on there. And you can always reach out to me lisa@lisatamati.com, if you've got questions around that.  We've also updated our running coaching system. So the way that we are offering our online run training system is now on a complete new look. We are doing fully personalised, customised training plans for runners of all levels and abilities. So we will program you for your next goal doing a video analysis of the way you're running, improve your running form through drills and exercises. Build your plan out for you. You get a one-on-one consult time with me as well. And just really help you optimise your running performance and achieve those big goals that you've got. So head on over to runninghotcoaching.com to check that out. Right now over to the show with Dr Elizabeth Yurth in Boulder, Colorado.  Lisa Tamati: Well, hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing The Limits. Today, I have Dr. Elizabeth Yurth with me from Colorado—Boulder, Colorado, and she is a longevity and anti-ageing expert. She's an orthopaedic surgeon. She's a real overachiever. And I'm just super excited to have her on because I have been diving into Dr. Yurth’s world for the last couple of weeks since I heard about her on the Bulletproof radio show. So Dr. Yurth has kindly given up an hour of her time to come and share her great knowledge. I know we're only going to skim the surface, Dr. Yurth, but it would be fantastic if we can gain some amazing insights on how the heck do we slow down this ageing process. So, Dr. Yurth, welcome to the show.  Dr. Elizabeth Yurth: Thank you so much, Lisa. I've been actually stalking you ever since you asked me to do this. And I've been fascinated with all the things you've been doing and teaching and I love it. I love that there's people like you out there who are now getting the masses involved in this and interested in this because doctors aren't doing it and so it has to be that educate the public. And people like you are paramount to that, so thank you. Lisa: Thank you very much. Yes, I think, yes, this is the beauty of podcasts and such things and will in the internet whenever we can go direct to the best minds on the planet, get the information direct to the consumer, cutting out all the middle people, so to speak, and really get this information out there. Because what I've found in my research in the last few years is that there is so much amazing, great science out there that has never seen the light of day and certainly not in local clinical practice being utilized.  So Dr. Yurth, can you tell us a little bit about the Boulder Longevity centre before we get underway and what your work there is all about and your background? Dr. Elizabeth: Sure, I'd love to. So basically, I've been in the orthopaedic medicine world for 30 years. And about 15 years ago, I actually became very frustrated because I saw people coming in and they would get injured or just have arthritis, chronic pain and we would sort of patch them a little bit and nothing ever really got better, and then something else will get hurt. And it really was just this downhill process from square one. I mean, I tore my first anterior cruciate ligament in my knee at the age of 18 and subsequently, had torn two or three more times between the two knees, had four more surgeries and then it was just a downhill decline.  And so, we started looking at is there a way to stop this, because you don't learn it in medical school, and you don't learn in orthopaedic medicine. And when I started looking into—and this was a very early time in the whole functional medicine space, it was really early, there wasn't a lot. And so I went back to American Academy of Anti-ageing Medicine, which is really the only thing available at that time, and did a fellowship in functional medicine and regenerative medicine and tried to incorporate that into my orthopaedic practice as much as I could. But it's difficult in 10 to 15 minute appointments to do that. So we realized that you can't really do good medicine in that model, and so we opened Boulder Longevity Institute about 15 years ago now. And I really sidelined did both practices, because what I found is that people are still looking for that insurance-based practice, and I try as much as I could to educate them there. And then some of them would transition over to here and over time for 15 years, Boulder Longevity Institute has really grown and developed, and subsequently is now my full-time practice. But we do a lot of orthopaedic regenerative care here, the targeting, taking care of people and getting them healthier in that realm.  But much like you, our focus is very much now on education and we have a whole, what we call, Human Optimization Academy. We're trying to bring the just like you said, the research to the people. Peter Diamandis, who runs Abundance360—is very well known, you probably know him — he has a great quote where he says, ‘Researchers don't do medicine. And doctors don't do the research and learn the research and use on their patients’. And so, there's a lag of about 15 to 20 years since when something is available to us that will make us better and ever getting to us.  Lisa: Exactly. I had the exact same conversation with another doctor, Dr. Berry Fowler and we were talking about intravenous vitamin C and I said, ‘Why is it taking so long and critical care to get this in?’ And he said ‘because it's like turning a supertanker’. He says, ‘It's just so slow’. And so people are not getting the benefit of the latest research. And for an orthopaedic surgeon to go down this anti-ageing functional medicine route is a very rare thing, or at least in my country, it would be a very rare thing. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, orthopaedics does not cross over this line at all. And ultimately, it's one of the reasons I had to leave my other practices because my partners were very much like, ‘Stop talking about medicine. That's not what we do here’. And you have to—even arthritis is a disease. It is not that you ran too much and wore out your knees. There is a disease process going on in your body that is now making your joints wear out. And so you have to systemically treat it or you're not going to make any progress. Lisa: Oh man, people so need to hear that because it is an inflammatory process that's coming like out of the immune system. And I've heard you say a couple of times on some of your lectures, I listened to one on mitochondria. And mitochondria is sort of the basis of where a lot of other things are coming from, isn't it, and diseases are probably...  Dr. Elizabeth: Everything. Honestly, I think what we're going to find is that every single diseases—every single disease is going to come down to mitochondrial level. In fact, I was just reading a new research article on autism and mitochondrial dysfunction, that they're actually linking this mitochondrial dysregulation in even autism. I don't think that we're going to find any disease that is not linked first to mitochondrial dysfunction, which is fascinating because mitochondria are fascinating. So it's really my passion is, is how do we repair mitochondria. But that you start looking at—you can pretty much do that. You guys go out there and Google mitochondria and any disease you can think of and you will find research to support it.  So, in arthritis it is exactly the same, right, Lisa? You're right. It's damage to now the mitochondria and the chondrocytes. And that damage—you get these damage from chondrocytes, which then are actually spewing these reactive species that are damaging the next cell and the next cell. And simply sticking steroids in that joint is not going to help it.  Lisa: Wow. So we want to talk a little bit today, like we talked about our foundational health—a few foundational health principles so that we can then get on to some of the cooler, more sexier stuff that I want to talk about, like things like spermidine and peptides and NAD precursors, perhaps, and all of these sort of really cool things.  But what are you seeing in your practice—like you're seeing a lot of people who are becoming aware of their health, they're looking at everybody knows the basics about nutrition now, I think. Like, fried foods are not good for us, sugar is not good for us—the basics. But what are you seeing as missing in that foundational side of things? Dr. Elizabeth: So I think this is the biggest thing I've seen over the past—probably a year. And as I've done more podcasts, and I've listened to more podcasts, and now you have all the bio hacker groups and the peptide group, so everybody is doing all this cool thing. So now, like, ‘Oh, I got to go do my hyperbaric and I have to go take my growth hormone, peptides’. And they come in to me, and I was just telling you about a patient I saw who literally had a worksheet, spreadsheet of all the things he was doing. And I said, ‘Well, are you taking testosterone’? And he was 56 years old, I said, ‘Are you taking testosterone’? ‘No’. And I said, ‘Have you ever looked at your nutrient pound’? ‘Nope’.  So, what I really want to encourage your listeners is the cool stuff is cool, and there's a place for it in all of us, but you still got to start at the basic stuff. So, when we look at people we have to go through and we have to fix—so we look at all the hormones and you just did a great podcast looking at hormone metabolism, right? Because people are so scared of hormones and they’re terrified that these hormones are going to cause cancer. And we know that's not true. It's how you metabolize the hormones that's important, which has genetic and environmental. You just gave an incredible podcast with your guests the other day on that. Lisa: With Dr. Mansoor; he's wonderful.  Dr. Elizabeth: Right. And your epigenetic background, that the key is how these hormones are processed. So when we look at hormones, we actually do a urine metabolite test. So we know exactly where those hormones are going, and are they going down bad pathways or good pathways? So you've got to repair all that, first, fix all the pathways, which you do, and you know your CYP genes and all that kind of stuff. How do you alter it? There's nutrients that you can use to do that. There's tons of things, exercise. So, fix all the hormones first. Men and women all need hormones. I think testosterone’s neglected in women all the time, right? They're on estrogen, progesterone, and I'm like, ‘You’re not on testosterone’? Like, ‘No’. And so even within the realm of our type of medicine, we are neglected in that realm. Right?  Testosterone is huge for women. If you want muscle, you need testosterone.  Lisa: I basically got good muscles. Dr. Elizabeth:  Right, that’s right. So, you've got your testosterone on board, and it has to be not alternating into estrogen—all that has to be involved. So you've got to fix that. And then, there's so much information in these really simple lab studies that you've gotten from your primary care doctor. So, a complete blood count, a CBC, a CMP. Everybody has them, and everybody's doctor looks at and goes, ‘Yep, looks good. There's no reds in there, everything's perfect’. You can actually take that—and Dr. Levine, anti-ageing expert, did a whole algorithm that just taking some of these blood work give you very comparable estimation of longevity as doing telomere length or doing methylation.  So, we have all these expensive tests to look at DNA methylation and telomere to look at age, and you could come up very close to the same number, simply by feeding some of these parameters, like your albumin level and your metabolic calculator that would... Lisa: Wow! Is that available publicly, that calculator?  Dr. Elizabeth: I'm not sure how publicly available it is. We actually have access, and we utilize that in our patients to follow it. But it's great, because these other tests are expensive. And if I want to put you on a protocol and then see if I'm making headway, how do I follow that? So, I don't think people know that, for instance, what is one of the most valuable numbers on your CBC? It’s actually the size of your cells, the mean cell volume, and the rest of distribution?  Lisa: Yes, I'm just studying cell distribution. Dr. Elizabeth: Isn’t that fascinating?  Lisa: We are completely unaware.  Dr. Elizabeth: And have any of your listeners have had the doctor ever mentioned what their MCV is? Or their RDW is? And those are very, very important. So is albumin. So albumin alone, which is not just dietary. There's a great study that you could predict who is going to get out of the hospital alive based on their albumin levels. And so simply looking at things like that. So if your albumin levels are low, maybe it's because you're not eating enough protein, but that doesn't—it tends to be something else wrong. Lisa: Liver not doing something.  Dr. Elizabeth: Definitely. And sometimes that's the need for more beta carotene. Sometimes it's need for more copper. Copper has to help carry the albumin and copper deficiencies are super low. Nobody measures copper. So, you can look at a low albumin and try putting somebody on a little copper, it’s quite GHK copper as a peptide, I might get to the fancy stuff. Using copper as a peptide is an amazing peptide. It's very longevity promoting because copper is super vital to our health. And so sometimes just putting people on two milligrams of copper can markedly improve their health.  Lisa: But isn’t there copper’s also a toxicity problem? Isn't that quite a lot of people have high copper levels?  Dr. Elizabeth: Less than you think. So it's gotten a lot of market to that, right? It has to be that zinc copper balance has to be imbalanced. So that's one of the things. But actually, copper toxicity is pretty easy to tell. When people become copper—toxic on copper, you'll see the lunula, the fingernails start turning, a little discoloured, a little bluish in colour. So it is a little harder to get toxic in copper than people think. I use it a lot for wound healing in my patients. So, it really helps with wound healing. It's why it's in all skin, expensive skin creams, copper peptides are because it's so good for collagen function, it’s so good for wounds. So I think we may scare people a little bit from copper. But it actually has some value. And a lot of times, it's not so much that you have too much coppers, you don't have enough zinc and that balance is not there. It has to be balanced between zinc and copper. So those are simple things that you can actually look at and measure. And you can—I don't have to do it on everybody.  So I see somebody who has a low albumin, I might say, ‘Hmm, we better look at your zinc and copper level’. So we take the CBC and CMP. And how about simply creatinine? If your creatinine is above point eight, that is not good for longevity. So, why is that?  Well, maybe you're eating way too much protein, right? We will erase any high protein diets, super high protein, the kidneys can only process so much protein and your kidneys depend on your genetics, maybe less. So that's all things I think you have to go back when you talk about foundational health.  I spend literally 30 minutes going through a CBC and a CMP with people. They’re so valuable, and those are $12 tests. Not these big, fancy, expensive tests, they don't cost $500 or $600. And by the end of that test, I can give them, this is what your biological age, your pheno age, this is where we really need to target and start with them some very basic, inexpensive things.  Lisa: Crikey dex, that's amazing. I didn't know we can get to that. I mean, I've only been studying blood chemistry for a couple of months and like it's a big topic isn't it?  Dr. Elizabeth: It has some really cool value to it that you can actually look at. Some ranges that—we have all gone from the normal range, right? All your listeners now know this the normal range, there's an optimal stage. Within that optimal range, right, there's one number above that you'll see you start to see a change in ageing. The curve on your projected longevity, you look at  albumin levels, and you look at the curve on your projected longevity. If your albumin levels are less than 4.6, your projected longevity is five to 10 years less than somebody who's above 4.6. Lisa: Crikey. No one's ever told me any of these things and I’ve been studying blood chemistry and from functional doctors, like that's all news to me. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, I think that that's the problem. I think even the functional medicine space sort of went beyond the step of looking at some very, very basic things that are inherent to life. And now start focusing, ‘Oh, let's look at hormones, right? Let's look at the gut microbiome’. All super important, but all going to be messed up, if the other stuffs messed up, right?  Lisa: You’re basically not in the right place. Dr. Elizabeth: And so I—that's where I get a little frustrated. So now we're targeting back to that whole cellular health, it all comes back down to the cell, fix the cell. As the cell gets fixed, the mitochondria get fixed, everything else falls. So once you've refined that now, we can look at gut microbiomes, if the person is not doing well. We can look at things like micronutrient profiles, and I love micronutrient profiles because I don't know if how much vitamin D you need or how much vitamin B12 you need. Micronutrient profiles, particularly one that gives me intracellular and serum levels, as you know genetics plays a huge role in your micronutrients.  Lisa: Yes, vitamin D, for example. I mean, I know I have bad vitamin D genetics, so I need to supplement with vitamin D. Right?  Dr. Elizabeth: And B12, you've got the SUV people of B12. I’m one of those who need a lot of B12. It's all very genetically based. So, you can predict it from genetics. But then are you accomplishing your goal? I think you need some… Lisa: Measurements. And this is where the combination of what I'm—like the combination of doing your genes and finding out your innate pathways and what they do, and then seeing actually where you are, getting that snapshot of ‘Okay, we are actually in their hormones and stuff’. And it's quite complicated.  And this is the problem is that you go to your local doctor, at least here where I live, and none of this is offered. And none of this is—and so you left as a lay person trying to work this stuff out yourself. And that's quite frustrating and quite difficult. Dr. Elizabeth: It's hard. And it gets caught up again, in the glitz and glamour. I'm going to be attracted to my podcast that's talking all about the coolest, newest thing, it's just our nature is to want the coolest, newest thing. And we just talked about that. We want that cool new thing, because that is on the forefront. And we use those cool new things to help fix the basics. But you still got to know where you are in that standing, and that's really now become, I think, one of my frustrations as I'm seeing more and more people walk in my door, who are doing everything they’re thinking of.  And so we are trying to teach people this. We're trying to teach people how do you interpret your own blood work? How do you look at every one of those parameters and say, ‘What should my albumin be? Okay, it's too high, it's too low. What can I do to fix that’? Whereas, if my MCV is, mean cell volume. If your mean cell volume, and you look at your own. As we age, I look at my 19 year old son, he has a mean cell volume of 83. If I look at your average person who's in their 50s, and 60s, who's our age, it's going to be 97, 98. So the higher that number goes, the more your stem cells are wearing out, the more your bone marrow is wearing out, the more that whatever you're doing isn't working.  So we can use those things, like you can use your infrared, you can do all those great things. Me, I infrared, I cryo, I do all that. But I will tell you some very basic stuff that sometimes has been the things that made changes in those numbers. I want people to know, that's them that, honestly, is why we decided you're never going to train doctors, you've got to train people. But we've also got to get people back to understanding that you've got to sort of learn these things and kind of a fashion of can learn this, learn this, learn this. When I understand everything about how hyperbaric oxygen improves my cell function, have I really learned how to just look at the cell at that molecular level from looking at basic labs? And that's what we're trying to teach people. Start there, and then we give them tools.  Lisa: Fantastic. So people can join Dr Yurth, and get us some of this education. And I've started delving into it and I can't wait to see what else comes along because I mean, this sort of stuff, I'm like already going, ‘Oh my god, I didn't know that’. So I've learned something today already as well. And I'm very definitely guilty of going after the shiny object and love it. Dr. Elizabeth: It’s human nature. That’s human nature.  Lisa: Yes. And so people can go to the Boulder Longevity website and I'll put the links in the show notes and there is a Human Optimization Academy, join up for that and it's actually free at the moment, isn't it, Dr. Yurth?  Dr. Elizabeth: Right. Right now, it's free. And we'll start putting together—so right before COVID hit, we actually had an in-person course. We're actually going to teach how to look at your own CBC and CMP. And COVID hit, and it all sort of fell apart. But we'll be putting that back into sort of a virtual course with people so you can actually get your bloods run. We will walk you through. So, here's how to interpret every one of those little numbers you see on there because I will tell you, every one of those little numbers is important. Everybody just looks at it as a piece of paper, and there's no red marks highs or lows, they sort of discard it. And we'll show you how to look at that and give huge value.  And just from those simple things, you can now say, ‘Maybe I better get a micronutrient panel’, or at least test a copper or zinc or a B12, or D based on some of those numbers that you see being off. And then take the tool, now fix the basics. ‘That's not working? Okay, now, maybe I need to add this, this, this’. Lisa: And then now we can get fancy. Well sign me up for that course because I need it. And I'm already up on some of it, but I wasn't that familiar with some of the things you've just said. So like, that's just like, well. Okay, so we're looking at foundational stuff. Now let's go and look at cellular health, per se, because it all comes down to the cell. The more I look into things, the more everything seems to be about mitochondria in the cell, and what they're doing. and when we're made up of what? 10 trillion cells or something ridiculous. So cellular health, can you give us a bit of a view—it's a big topic, isn't it? But where should we start? Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, well, I'm going to start with first kind of explaining what that means. So, functional medicines, we went from a disease-focused medicine, right? And then we all got very savvy—well, not the doctors—but the rest of the world who got very savvy said, ‘Oh, this isn't working. It's making somebody money, but it's not working to make anybody happy’.  So we went to a functional medicine part. Let's look at organ systems and let's start. So then we went to the organ system, let's look at the adrenal glands and let's look at the liver in this and let's now fix the organ system that's dysfunctional. we got to fix the thyroid, we got to fix the endocrine organs and we have to do all that.  And then now, and this is really super recent, we're realizing that every organ system comes back to a cellular dysfunction. And there's not really anybody who has one disease that is not have something else wrong. It's just impacted lots of times in different ways. So if I have osteoarthritis. So if you have osteoarthritis, your risk of dementia is about fivefold higher. So why is that? Right? Osteoarthritis... because I ran 800 miles a day. But that's not the case, I have patients who run 800 miles and they're fine.  Lisa: Oh, I'm fine. Like, my joints are fine, and I haven't got any osteo. Dr. Elizabeth: And then you have people who are like, ‘Oh, yes, I just wore myself out because I ran too much’. No, not the case. So, there's something wrong. So now we have to go back and look at what is wrong in the cell. So if you think about what power, what is the cell all about? It is the mitochondria. Mitochondria, what gives the cell energy, right? And so as we start getting damaged to our mitochondria with time and life and environment and genetics, and we start getting damage at the mitochondrial level. So, now have these damaged mitochondria. And now we start getting these cells that are in this altered state of energy. And that's when you start getting that senescent cell—cells that are basically sitting there… Dr. Elizabeth: They’re zombie cells.  Lisa: And there's zombie cells, right? And they're producing these reactive oxygen species. And that's why they're called zombie cells, it's because the things that are being spewed out, are now toxic to the cells around them and then toxic to those cells. And so, it truly is like a zombie takeover.  So that's where we look at when we're going back to a cell level. First thing we have to do to try and heal any disease is clean out the bad cells. Clean up the zombie cells. That’s why fasting has been utilized for years in every disease process because we know that fasting causes autophagy, causes bad cells to go away, and now we can rebuild. I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is that if I start throwing a lot of rebuilding things into my network, tons of NAD and I'm trying to always be in this state where I've got a lot of antioxidants going. I'm throwing a lot of NAD and well then, I'm actually contributing to that cell senescent state. I've got to get rid of that first.  Clear out the bad stuff and do that periodically. And we use things like rapamycin, you can use it for fasting. And most recently what my go-to has been this spermidine for that talk. And I fell in love with spermidine a few years ago, actually and couldn't get it here in the US. That basically—it came onto my radar because there it worked at a very sort of primal level. Every single organism has spermidine. Anything that every organism has, is vital to life. And so we know that—and then all these studies that show that well, if you have higher level spermidine, you live longer, so. And it was only available in—I don't know if you guys could get it—but it was available in Europe.  Lisa: I’ve just got my first order on its way. But I had to get it via Colorado, and I've actually being in contact with the guys in Austria. So, working on that one, I'm getting it down here. Dr. Elizabeth: We couldn't get it. And like six months or so ago, we finally could get it here in the US. And it works as an autophagy inducing agent. It basically tells the cells to get rid of the bad stuff, it helps to restore the good parts of the cell. And really, at a baseline level is probably the one supplement that I know of, and probably the only one I know of, that is going to be actually balancing cell health continuously. Lisa: So it's homeostasis as opposed to... Dr. Elizabeth:  The homeostatic state. Right.  Lisa: So like, just to backtrack a little bit there because we covered a heck of a lot of ground in a very short time there. So, fasting, I mean, we've heard, like fasting and intermittent fasting and longer fasts are very, very good for us and all that. While a lot of us don't want to do it because it's not very nice... I do intermittent fasting, but I must admit, I don't enjoy it. And I certainly—when it comes to doing longer fasts, I struggle. So I'm always like, fasting mimetics, how can I get some fasting mimetics going? Because like you say, if I'm going to put in the antioxidants, the precursors, which I do as well, which are very important piece of the puzzle, but just that is not enough. So, this is like we've looked at in the past, like resveratrol as being a possible fasting mimetic. And wouldn't it be great if spermidine turns out, and it looks like it is going to be another fasting mimetic that's actually even more powerful. So, I know you do a lot of fasting, you're very disciplined, unlike myself. Dr. Elizabeth: No extra weight, I still have extra weight so fasting’s easier for me. Lisa: But yes, it is a difficult thing to do. So intermittent fasting is probably for me is the easiest go-to because I can sort of coke for it.  Dr. Elizabeth: Time-restricted eating. Really, yes, more doing a 16, 8, kind of thing as opposed to the longer fast. And there's a lot of questions, we don't really know, do you need to long fast? We actually don't know the answer to that. There's a lot of people who say, ‘Oh, you've got to be hit the 48 to 72 hours to really get the full autophagy phase’. There's not a lot of data that actually really says that. You may still be able to get the same benefits from doing time-restricted eating. So we don't know the answer to all these questions.  Lisa: But so what we're targeting with fasting is autophagy. So, autophagy, just to define what autophagy is, is getting rid of the bad stuff, basically. The bad proteins that are damaged, the mitochondria, or mitophagy, in that case. And recycling the parts that we can reuse and getting rid of it. Does the body sort of lock at it when you're fasting, and you haven't got anything coming and going up, ‘I've got no fuel supply, I better start recycling the old stuff’.  Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, exactly. Yes, autophagy is self-eating. And so basically, the cell basically says, ‘Oh, I need to preserve. I'm going to take the good things from the cell, get rid of the bad stuff I don't need. It’s a waste of energy. Getting rid of cells that shouldn't be utilizing my energy’. So and then really by going into a ketotic state, and that's, not utilizing glucose has a huge benefit. Lisa: So ketosis and autophagy, are they hand in hand? Are they part of the same thing? Can you have autophagy without being in ketosis, or are they very much married together? Dr. Elizabeth: No, you can actually have autophagy without being in ketosis. And you can basically be in ketosis and not necessarily have autophagy. So that all kind of depends on the cell, the state the cells in.  One of the problems with resveratrol as a fasting mimetic, you mentioned taking resveratrol continuously, is there's also very potent antioxidant. Remember, one of the benefits of fasting is oxidative stress. So, I want oxidative stress while I'm fasting. If I'm taking resveratrol, for instance, while I'm fasting, I'm actually not getting as much of the oxidative stress. So, it's working a little different level. That's why I like spermidine a little bit better as it doesn't have that same effect to sort of negate the oxidative stress. Lisa: And for how long for people to get their heads around? I know because I mean, I've been struggling with this one, like the antioxidants sort of paradox. Yes, sorry, you carry on. Dr. Elizabeth: I think the key to remember is you really don't want to be doing any protocol continuously. I was just talking to a guy and he said, ‘What do you do to look like you do’? because I have more muscle. And I said, ‘I don't do anything continuously’. There's nothing—workout, nothing continuously. My food, my eating is never continuously, my supplements are never continuously.  And I think it's a problem as people get in these patterns where they are taking all these antioxidants continuously. I always am going through build-up, breakdown phases. So there's only a few supplements that I will continuously take. One is, I will take spermidine at a baseline level. But if I'm doing a sort of a fast autophagy phase, where I really want to do a big tie up off of everything, I want a very high dose spermidine, much higher dose than just until that time of day.  Lisa: Because spermidine works at a level lower if you like, at the base level. So, when we're talking about antioxidants, what the job is in the cell is to basically scavenge and donate electrons to where you got oxidative stress, and reactive oxygen species and to get rid of it there. But we're actually going a step back and actually stopping the reactive oxygen species, or oxidative stress from happening in the first place. And this is why spermidine at that base level, seems to be one that you can take continuously. And it even builds up to some degree, perhaps in your body or upregulates some of the bacteria in the microbiome. And whereas, antioxidants, we want to sort of cycle in and out. It's like exercise, isn't it? Like when I go to the gym, I'm not going to have my vitamin C right next to when I go to the gym, because that's going to mitigate that cascade of effects that vitamin C has. Yes.  So I'm doing things. I'm taking my vitamin C away from that. And so there's, none of this is good or bad, it's cycling. And I think the more I've looked into things, the body likes this push and pull. It likes a medic stress. It likes to be cold. It likes to be hot. It likes to be pleasant, but it likes to be fasted. It likes to have a good amount of food. It's this whole—because that's how we've evolved, isn't it? Dr. Elizabeth: That's the way life for it was, yes. Lisa: We didn't come from this neutral environment where the temperature is the same all the time. And we're sitting on comfy couches, and we're not exercising and we're not cold, or we're not hungry, and we're not hot, and we're not not anything, and we've got an abundance of everything. And therefore, if we look at our evolution, and how we've come about that sort of a push and pull seems to go right through nature. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, you're exactly right. Remember, there's that balance between mTOR and AMPK, right? We know that AMPK is breakdown. And we know that when we block mTOR, our lives are longer, but we also don't build as much muscle and we don't have as much energy. And what you do is go through phases, build up mTOR, build up AMPK, build up and do that balance, so that you keep things in a very homeostatic state. And you said exactly right, there's great benefits to being hot. You have all the, how great being cold is and doing our cold showers in our cryo and everything. But there's a study that came out recently, I think I quote it in some podcasts I was in recently, that showed that in hotter environments, bone density is much better. So why is it that?  Lisa: Yes, I heard that.  Dr. Elizabeth: There's some effects from the warmth on our body too. So you're exactly right. We want to go back and forth between different things and we want to make sure we're cycling. Any of you who are staying on the same patterns all the time, that's not serving you. Your body needs to have this back-and-forth balance. And you're right, that is—whenever you give the quote of well, ‘That's how cavemen lived’. You're like, ‘Well, but cavemen died in 18 whatever’.  So how our evolution occurred, right? It's still what, what got us to survive. And it really is how our world is designed, and it's how our cells are designed. So I think that the use of thinking about your body as ‘Okay, I'm going to go through a fast, autophagy phase, and then I'm going to build up and I’m going to build my muscles’. You can build muscle while you're in a fasted state, but it's not nearly as easy as it is when you're eating a lot of food.  Lisa: Yes. And but we're wanting to keep everything in balance so that it doesn't get just mTOR because, if we're in a state of like, activated mTOR all the time, then we are growing, but we were possibly growing things like cancer cells and things like. Dr. Elizabeth: And we know that mTOR activation all the time is closer to death. Lisa: But isn’t it weird, like there's nothing simple about...  Dr. Elizabeth: It actually, honestly, it makes very little sense to me, right? The things—the mTOR, everything's muscle building. Super high IGF all the time and it is muscle building. You would think it would be kind of pro longevity, right, and healthy, and yet, it's not. And the only way I can really—in my mind, reason that out is that if the zombie apocalypse hits, you're better designed to be able to survive without any food and without any—nothing just huddled away in your little house, right? And so maybe the evolution of our body that's for longevity, the genes have kind of stayed there are the ones that really make us survive through famine, right? And yet, that's probably not where we all want to be. We don't want to be huddled in the back of our houses not moving.  And so yes, if you look at Valter Longo and his research on—really low IGF people live longer, they don't have cancer. Yes but they actually don't necessarily feel great. And they don't necessarily see low IGF people all the time, who are fatigued, who don't have good energy, who can't build muscle, who don't exercise. So I think that the thing here is build your IGF, bring it back down, build it up, bring it back down. So, I think that that's where we really need to look at things, as this kind of waxing and waning of everything we do.  In our cellular medicine fellowship program, it's one of the things we're really, really focused on is that's what the cell needs, is a push and pull to it, to really help it become a healthier entity. And I think if we start doing that, we're going to start seeing that that's really where we're going to see that big focus to health and longevity occurrence. It's not going to be ‘Everybody eat this diet’.  Lisa: No, no. And this is like, even as a coach of athletes and stuff. And I did this in my athletic career where I didn't know all this stuff. I ran long, because that's what I do, it was ultra-marathon running. And that's all I did. I didn't train at the gym. I didn't do—and I was not fit. And I was not healthy. I could run long because I've trained that specific thing, but I wasn't healthy. I was overweight. I was hormonally imbalanced. I ended up with hypothyroid. I couldn't have sat on the couch and ate chips all day and probably come out better than I did. Because I'd been doing one thing and one thing that was actually not suited to my genetics either, ideally. And so understanding all of this is not as simple as well, ‘I'll go and do the same old thing, same old and then we'll be good’. I want to sort of flip now and go a bit of a deep dive into spermidine because I think spermidine is the one thing that, this is going right down to the base level of before. Because we want anti-ageing. I mean. We compared ages before this podcast and I mean, I won't share your age, but I was shocked. You look amazing. And I'm like, ‘I want a piece of that’. What is it that you're doing? So spermidine is a part of your—that is one of the things you do take on a pretty much a daily basis. Can you dive into the research? There’s 10 years behind the spermidine and it's only just becoming available. Guys in New Zealand, it's not here yet. I'm working on it. Give me time, I'm getting, I'm working on it. Dr. Elizabeth: So, what we know is as we talked about spermidine is on every single living organism. So, we know it's critical to life, it's what's called a polyamine. It's what a three poly means is spermidine, spermine, and putrescine. And they all have some value. Putrescine is what's in rotting meat. You're probably not going to go eat rotting meat. But there's actually some value to putrescine in our bodies, too. Spermidine appears to have—spermidine is converted typically this into spermidine. Spermidine is innately in our gut. So, it's made by our gut bacteria but it's also in some foods. It's in some a lot of fermented foods, in wheat germ extracts. It's in some peas and mushrooms. It's in some algae.  Probably the richest source of it is a specific type of wheat germ extract. It's apparently very difficult to extract, it's only a certain type of wheat germ that has it's difficult to extract a pure form of it. And so, there is companies that make it from algae as well. But you have to take—actually before we could get spermidine from spermidine life which is wheat germ extract, we actually bought an algae extract one. You really had to take 40 of these little green pills. I mean your hands are green, your teeth are green all the time. 40 of them, I mean, I did that because I wanted it but once we got spermidine.  I get the question all the time about well, it's wheat germ extract. Interestingly, I've celiac patients on spermidine and even though it's not advised for celiac patients, it probably actually is perfectly safe because it's actually working on one of the pathways, that's what makes the gluten exactly unsafe those patients. So, it's probably even if you're—I'm very gluten sensitive, I don't do gluten. I have no problems in spermidine. So, it tends to be pretty well-tolerated in those people. Lisa: Yes, but I've got a brother who’s recently examined and she said, ‘Yes, I can’. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, I have two celiac patients on who've done fine. And again, the bio says not to take it if you're celiac, but I think cautiously, there is some research that supports it actually may be useful in treating some of the celiac patients.  So basically, the study is now—there's so many studies on it. In terms of preventing almost every disease in the book, and that's where you and I come back to that whole, is mitochondria the answer to everything? Because we've seen spermidine—you can Google spermidine. I do this. I mean, Google ‘spermidine and Alzheimer’, Google ‘spermidine and cancer’, there's not a disease that we don't have a study on where you can find some connection to higher or lower levels of spermidine being better.  Some of the major research has been on cardiovascular and its benefits and cardiovascular disease. It's one of the things we've been using when we see high inflammatory cardiovascular markers in our patients. We measure what's called myeloperoxidase, which is an inflammatory cardiovascular marker. It's interesting, we've seen it very high in our lot of our post-COVID patients. So patients who have had COVID recovered, coming for labs, we're seeing very high levels of myeloperoxidase. So, we think that's probably from some of the vascular damage that COVID seems to create in some people with certain genetics. And that’s very hard to bring it back down, and spermidine has been one of the things that's been really helpful there for us.  So, it's also any of your patients who have a high Lp little a. Yes, so by Lipoprotein little a, you'll know is basically genetic. Lisa: Yes. And there's not much you can do.  Dr. Elizabeth: Nothing much you can do about it. You use high-dose niacin, but it's hard to take, the liver toxic. Spermidine actually has some research to support it in lowering Lp little a and we've seen that in our practice, it's one of the things we lower Lp little a. So the other place that's been really studied is an immune system support. So we've seen improvements in lymphocytes. So, one of the other labs that you want—when you're looking at that CBC is looking at your neutrophil-lymphocyte ratio.  Lisa: Yes, I've just like I've got a problem with my brother at the moment, lymphocytes, neutrophils down. No, sorry, your neutrophils down, lymphocytes, high.  Dr. Elizabeth: That's a little uncommon, that might indicate some kind of viral illness going on. Typically, what happens as we age is, we start to see the lymphocyte number go down and the neutrophil number go up. So that ratio, which should be around 1.3:1, 1:1, 1.3:1, starts climbing. If you look at the typical person our age is, 3:1. And so, it's hard to get—how do you get back lymphocyte function? You don't have thymus glands anymore. And so the two things that we've been able to utilize to really restore lymphocyte function in our patients who have ageing immune systems is spermidine. And then the other one is a peptide, thymosin alpha-1, which is a thymic peptide.  What our thymus gland does is it takes those two lymphocytes, it tells them what to do and, and once—your best immune function is at puberty. After that, your thymus gland starts getting smaller. And by the time you're 60, you don't really have much thymus gland. And so your immune system starts going a little haywire, it doesn't know what to do. And so what we can do, because really crazy people are trying to transplant thymus glands, or eat sweetbreads, which doesn't work. They do it in France, maybe they taste good, but I don't think it replaces your thyroid function. But you can get thymic peptides. So, two of the things that the thymus gland really makes is thymosin alpha-1 and thymosin beta-4. And thymosin alpha-1 is a very immune modulating peptide, and it really helps to restore normal immune function. So, the combination of spermidine and thymosin alpha-1 and your people who have immune dysregulation, autoimmune diseases. You could start normalising the immune function. So instead of attacking self they start attacking viruses.  Lisa: Wow. And autoimmune is just like, a huge, huge problem. I mean, it's just epidemic levels now.  Dr. Elizabeth: It is epidemic.  Lisa: Sorry, so this would help with that. Oh, my God. Okay. So that's another reason to take spermidine and the peptides. I mean, peptides are harder to get hold of like… Dr. Elizabeth: It’s still harder to get hold of. Your people who are in Europe, thymosin alpha-1 is actually a drug. It's called Zadaxin. We can't get it here as a drug. We've made us a peptide but it actually is a drug. They use it in their chemotherapy patients in Europe and Asia. And so oddly, it's available as approved drug. Probably pricey. Lisa: Most of these drugs are for some unknown reason. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes. Spermidine—someone's early studies and where it actually sort of panned out, as people went after it initially was actually hair growth. And again, if you think about, the tissues, we're talking about, like cardiac here, those are all fast-growing tissues. And that's where spermidine sort of had its nice effect and sort of that whole regeneration process. And so even in guys with thinning hair, spermidine has huge benefits. Just taking on like a milligram a day dose will start the thickening of hair. I noticed when I first started, my nails grew really fast means, I mean, super fast. And so even in those basic things, like hair growth, nail growth, spermidine has some really marked effects. Lisa: Fantastic. We’ve got to get it here.  Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, it is amazing. I mean, honestly, I feel a little—whenever I see my patients now and I see something wrong. I'm like, ‘Well, spermidine, oh’. Lisa: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And this is all to confirm because it's such a wide panacea, and it works at base level of the ageing and pathologies and things… Dr. Elizabeth: It’s too good to be true.  Lisa: It's too good to be true, but actually now, it makes sense. And so, it’s fantastic if we find something that is a panacea for many, many things. And also, I've got my first shipment coming from the States, and I'm super excited. Dr. Elizabeth: One of the hard things in what we do, right, is it takes you awhile to feel better, and just starting from a low level, right. Or if you're like us, and you're at a high level, then making this little extra. And so, what I tell people to monitor, because one things I noticed was, when I started spermidine was a pretty—I don't sleep enough, I study too much. But I use my Oura ring, and I monitor my HRV. And so, I know a lot of your listeners have the Oura ring and HRV is very fluctuating. And so it's one of those things, it's very easy to see a change.  So, if I do something like start taking spermidine, I can say no, and you can look at the trend on your Oura ring. And you can say, you can take—started spermidine here, and I had about a 15 point jump in my HRV, which I won't say what it is because it’s just from starting spermidine. So I know it's doing something at a very basic level because HRV is predictive of almost every disease state; so low HRV, you know you have a higher incidence of all Alzheimer, we know we have a higher incidence of cancer. So I know if I'm affecting my HRV, I'm positively affecting my health.  So something really simple that you can do to say, okay, I started this here, and then look back in two weeks, go to your little trends thing and see ‘Wow, look, my trend is going this direction’. Lisa: Wow, I can't wait to see that because yes, I mean, I haven't been able to move the needle on my HRV really. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, me neither. And mine's not good.  Lisa: Yes, and mine isn't great either.  Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, the downside of sometimes what we do is we're reading all the time and staying all the time and trying to do too much and… Lisa: Brain doesn’t turn off.  Dr. Elizabeth: And that's not so good.  Lisa: Adrenaline driven. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, so it is really, honestly one of the first things I did that really made a dramatic change. Lisa: Wow, I will let you know how I go.  Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, let me know. Lisa: When mine comes, whether my HRV is now turning up.  Dr. Elizabeth: I will say sometimes you need a higher dose which gets pricey. Lisa: And this is the problem with everything, it's the same with the deep precursors and all the stuff that's fantastic, it does cost. But you know what? I don't have money to burn but I would rather go without a fancy car, go without fancy clothes, go without cosmetics, go without all that to have supplements that work or to have biohacking technologies that work because that's my priority, it’s my health. Because what good does it do me if I have a fancy car, but I'm sick?  Dr. Elizabeth: I know. And it is funny, I was giving this lecture and this woman came in, she asked how much this program we do cost? And she said, ‘Well maybe when I pay off my Lexus, I'll be able to do that’. And I'm like, ‘You’re really willing to spend a lot of money, a $1,000 on an iPhone and’...  Lisa: Priorities.  Dr. Elizabeth: …and car and we just still have to keep putting this focus on your priority, absolutely has to be this your health? And it’s so hard to convince people of that. Lisa: And I'm constantly shocked at people who expect to like, they take a supplement and they don't see anything change for three days and then they're like, ‘It didn't work’. And I'm like, ‘You've got to be kidding’. Like you know your hair is growing, right? But do you see it growing every day? No.  But if you keep going—and with my listeners have heard me rabbit on about my story with my mum and bringing her back from a mess of aneurysm. The reason I have been successful with her is, is not any one particular thing. I mean, yes, hyperbaric, yes, all of these things were a big part of the puzzle. But it was the fact that I keep going when there was no signs of improvement. And I keep going every single day for five years, and I still go. And that is the key is that persistence. And that just keep doing it and prioritizing this, even when you see no results. And that's a really hard sell because people want to see, how long will it take for this to kick in? Dr. Elizabeth: I think it's one of the hardest things about our jobs is—listen, it is very hard. But this is stuff that I'm looking at a future that's 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years down the road, I know these things—I know that they do, they've been proven. So to say they're not working for you is why in every study did they work and oddly, they don't work for you? It just doesn'

In this solo episode Lisa opens up with a special *personal* announcement! She then dives into her mental health journey- sharing everything from breakups, to medications, to the tools for navigating hard times that she's acquired along the way. She also answers listener submitted questions on all things anxiety, depression and more! Note from Lisa: Thank you for being part of this special episode. I hope that it helps you know that you're not alone, you're not broken, and that we're all in this together. I love you TTL fam!!! xx ♡, Lisa The Power Of Awareness Online Mindfulness Course- head here to learn more. F*RK THE NOISE- Next Hunger +Fullness Course begins March 21st. Head here to learn more. Instagram: The Truthiest Life on instagram @thetruthiestlife Host @Lisahayim HOTLINES National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 1-800-273-TALK (8255) The Lifeline is a free, confidential crisis hotline that is available to everyone 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The Lifeline connects callers to the nearest crisis center in the Lifeline national network. These centers provide crisis counseling and mental health referrals.  Crisis Text Line Text “HELLO” to 741741 The Crisis Text hotline is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week throughout the U.S. The Crisis Text Line serves anyone, in any type of crisis, connecting them with a crisis counselor who can provide support and information. The Trevor Project 1-866-488-7386 The Trevor Project is the leading national organization providing crisis intervention and suicide prevention services to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer & questioning (LGBTQ) young people under 25. To support TTL, subscribe, follow, or share episodes with family and friends who could benefit If you’re loving TTL, Please leave a review on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-truthiest-life/id1535516122?uo=2 Guest submissions, please fill out this form: https://thewellnecessities.typeform.com/to/pODTLasN Edited by Houston Tilley Intro Jingle by Alyssa Chase aka @findyoursails  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

No one is exempted from exposure to environmental pollutants. While this may sound worrying, there are steps, backed with scientific and empirical evidence, to rid our bodies of these harmful pollutants. However, there is still a lot of misinformation about detoxification that we need to uncover. In this episode, Dr Bryan Walsh discusses the common perception about detoxification and explains the actual science behind it. He talks about the different phases of detoxification and its complexity. Dr Walsh also tackles the importance of excretion as a widely ignored aspect of detoxification in diets and weight loss programs. Detoxification may seem challenging to start, but it begins with getting to know your body and blood chemistry. If you want to know more about the science behind detoxification, then this episode is for you!   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join our free live webinar on epigenetics.   Online Coaching for Runners Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Consult with Me If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries, to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   My Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn about the phases of detoxification. What is the assessment criteria for detoxification? What is the importance of context in detoxification?   Resources Try out a Metabolic Detoxification Questionnaire here. Alternatively, you can look for other questionnaires by searching for ‘metabolic detoxification questionnaire’. Detoxify or Die by Sherry A. Rogers Fasting Mimicking Diet Program by Dr Valter Longo Metabolic Fitness Curious to start your detoxification? Try out the Walsh Detox Program!     Episode Highlights [04:47] How Dr Walsh Started Studying Detoxification Dr Walsh was interested in health and fitness from a young age. He eventually ventured into massage therapy and became a fitness professional. He took a postgraduate degree to become a naturopathic physician. After his education, he felt that he had to study more to serve his patients better. His goal is to connect conventional Western medicine and alternative medicine. [09:56] Views on ‘Toxin’ and Detoxification Dr Walsh cites some ridiculous notions surrounding detoxification. In the 80s, it used to be rehabilitation for addiction to alcohol and drugs until everybody started hopping on the ‘detox bandwagon’. Xenobiotic or commonly known as ‘toxins’ is something foreign to the body that can cause damage in excess. When water leaves the body in any form, water-soluble toxins leave as well. Meanwhile, the body still needs to turn fat-soluble toxins into water-soluble toxins to get rid of it. Our bodies are naturally built to detoxify pollutants through biotransformation. Listen to the full episode for an in-depth discussion on toxins! [16:11] Categories of Pollutants First is heavy metals. This category includes aluminium, arsenic and mercury, among others. Second is persistent organic pollutants, which include phenol, dioxins and pesticides.  The last category is volatile organic chemicals (VOCs) that are usually inhaled.  In essence, pollutants are everywhere. [17:41] Everyone Is Exposed While everyone is exposed to pollutants, the levels may vary due to location and lifestyle. For instance, Dr Walsh believes that athletes may be less toxic due to sweating during exercise. Listen to the full episode to know the body’s pathways for getting rid of environmental pollutants. [23:04] The Difficulty in Assessment Criteria There are a lot of variables and testing methods to consider in assessing toxin exposure. The fat biopsy is regarded as the gold standard test. However, because different body areas store different amounts of fat, there’s no consistency in the body. Taking these tests can guide you to make different lifestyle changes. However, keep in mind that they cannot determine your body’s toxicity level quantitatively by an absolute number. Listen to the full episode to learn more about the complexity of detox questionnaires.  [30:00] Nature of Pollutants Toxin gets stored in a cell or area with low concentration. This is called the concentration gradient.  If there’s more toxin in the blood and less in the cell, it will get stored in the cell. When fasting, you go into a catabolic state. Studies have shown that xenobiotics in the blood increase in this state.  All detoxes are cellular detox. [33:43] The Phases of Detoxification Phase 0 starts with the fat-soluble toxin entering the cell. Phase 1 is the reaction with the addition of a hydroxyl group. Phase 2 concerns conjugation reaction of adding methylation, sulphation and the like.  Finally, phase 3 is when excretion happens.   Tune in to the full episode for Dr Walsh’s analogies and a detailed explanation of each phase! [42:06] The Three Pillars of Detoxification The keys of detoxification are mobilisation, biotransformation and excretion.  Mobilisation is getting pollutants out of storage. Biotransformation encompasses phases 1 to 3.  Excretion should take the toxin out of your body. [47:34] Effects of Dieting Dr Walsh recommends doing a weight loss program in conjunction with a detoxification program. During periods of weight loss or catabolism, xenobiotic levels increase. The problem with rapid weight loss and yo-yo dieting is the redistribution of toxins in the body without excretion. [53:22] Nutrients and Detoxification Being nutrient sufficient is enough to support phase 1. Phase 2 is driven by amino acids. Phase 3 can be blocked by three inhibitors: milk thistle, curcumin and green tea. However, note that the effects of these three inhibitors are based on its dosage and the context. One protocol will not work for everyone; you have to look at the totality. Listen to the full episode for more details about nutrients and botanicals!  [1:05:00] The Nature of Symptoms For Dr Walsh, thyroid dysfunction may be secondary to another issue. Once symptoms show, you should consider if it is a protective reaction. [1:11:32] Advice for Detoxification Dr Walsh shares details about his detox course, including a practitioner-based programme and The Walsh Detox for the general public.  Your blood chemistry is essential in determining your detoxification programme.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘I’ll be the first to tell you that science will never prove some of the things in life that are the most important things — relationships and love and how we try to study how the brain works — and I don’t think we have any idea’. ‘This is part of my problem with the industry is we can’t even decide on what a toxin is. . . So what I would suggest, the one that people are most talking about, that’s why I think environmental pollutant or environmental toxins make more sense because usually what people are talking about are things that are outside of us that get inside of us and cause damage of some kind’. ‘They will test their blood, their urine and their sweat for a specific xenobiotic or environmental pollutant. And they will find in many cases, it’s not in the blood, it’s not in the urine, but it is in the sweat’. ‘Everybody’s toxic. Everybody needs to detoxify. . . It’s not necessarily exposure; it’s we all have some degree of storage. The question is, when somebody is not feeling optimal, is it because of that or not? And so you can’t run around screaming everybody’s toxic because I don’t know that they are’. ‘And so it’s [toxins are] concentration gradient-based, which also means so that’s how it gets stored. If there’s more in the blood and less in the cell, then it will tend to go into the cell. And that’s when it gets stored’. ‘There’s some ridiculous stories out there that will say, ‘The body won’t release toxins if it’s not healthy enough, and it doesn’t think it can deal with them’. That’s not true’. ‘I’m against protocols; because one protocol will be brilliant for one and harmful for another same protocol’.   About Dr Walsh Dr Bryan Walsh has been studying human physiology and nutrition for over 25 years and has been educating others in health for 20 of those years. When he isn’t teaching, he spends his time poring over the latest research and synthesising his findings into practical information for health practitioners to use with their clients. He has given lectures to members of the health care industry around the world and consistently receives positive feedback in his seminars and courses. His online educational platform, Metabolic Fitness, helps health professionals to stop guessing and start knowing what to do with their patients. Dr Walsh is best known for challenging traditional dogma in health and nutrition concepts, such as questioning current models of adrenal fatigue, glucose regulation, detoxification, mitochondrial dysfunction and more. As such, he has been sought out to consult with multiple companies, academic institutions and wellness organisations. Dr Walsh is also a board-certified Naturopathic Doctor and has been seeing patients throughout the U.S. for over a decade. Outside of his professional endeavors, you can find him spending time and having incredible amounts of fun with his wife, Dr Julie Walsh, and five children.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn more about the science behind detoxification. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast! Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. And today I have just a super superstar for you, Dr. Brian Walsh, who's sitting in Maryland in the USA. Dr. Walsh is someone that I've followed for a long time and learned from. He is one of the great teachers in biochemistry and physiology. And today we are discussing detoxing very relevant to this time of the year. And this is all really next level information. Because it's all about detoxing, like what are the actual physiological steps of a detox process? And what is the latest and current research. This is not something you read in a two page magazine article detox type of thing. But this is the real deal with someone who really, really knows his stuff.  Now, Dr. Brian Walsh has been studying human physiology and nutrition for many, many years. And he spends his time sort of poring over the latest research and synthesizing all of that information for the layperson to be able to understand. And he also lectures at Western States University in biochemistry. And as a healthcare professional, he's a doctor of naturopathic medicine. And he has an online educational platform called metabolicfitnesspro.com, where he helps other health professionals like myself, and many, many others, as well as lay people with his programmes and courses. And we're going to be discussing today, as I said, detoxing, how to do it properly, when not to do it, what to be aware of if you are doing it. And he's you know—Dr. Walsh is someone who's really known for challenging traditional dogma in health. And he actually goes and does all the research, does deep deep dives into all of the clinical studies into PubMed, and then brings us the latest and information. So he's really someone that you want to have on your radar, someone that you want to know, if you want the latest and greatest in information.  I hope you're enjoying your Christmas time, by the time this episode comes out, Christmas will have been passed. And we're into the new year. And hopefully the world is on a new trajectory and that 2021 is going to be a hell of a lot better. And what better way to start the year than with a discussion around detoxing and getting your body in good shape for the year ahead. So without further ado, I'll be heading over to Dr. Brian Walsh.  And just a reminder too. If you want help with any health issues, if you are dealing with anything, please reach out to us lisa@lisatamati.com. You can reach me on email. If you're wanting information about our online run training programmes at Running Hot Coaching, want personalized run training, please do reach out to us as well. We just launched a new package that will be coming out in the next few weeks. So keep an eye out for that where we're going to be offering video analysis, as well as fully customized programmes and a session with me—all included in there in a package price. It's really really a no brainer. So if you want to find out about that, please reach out to us at lisa@lisatamati.com.  Of course our epigenetics programme is still open, if anyone wants to know and understand the genes—understanding everything to do with your genes, eliminating the trial and error for your body, understanding what foods to eat exactly, which areas you're predisposed to have problems with, how your brain functions, what your dominant hormones are all of this sort of great information. Please also reach out to us and we can put you in the right direction. We've done a few webinars already on our epigenetics programme. And in the coming weeks, we're also going to be having Dr. Ken McDonald on from PH-316, who's going to be going a little bit more deeper into this. So I hope you enjoy the session though for now with Dr. Brian Walsh. And we'll head over to him right now. Lisa Tamati: Well, hi everyone and welcome back to the Pushing The Limits. This week, I am super excited. I'm jumping out of my skin. I have a man who I really, really admire. I love his work. He's got an incredible brain. Just absolutely mind-mind conversation we were going to have today. I have Dr. Bryan Walsh with me. Welcome to the show, Dr. Walsh. Dr. Bryan Walsh: Thank you so much for being here. Lisa: It's a really, really an honour to have you on. Dr. Walsh, you’re still in Maryland, in the States? Can you give us a bit of a background just on who you are and sort of a quick synopsis and your background as a physician, etc.?  Dr. Bryan: Well, yes, I guess I should say it all started out, I was very much into health and fitness, even at a young age, quite honestly. I became a fitness professional—that’s how I started. And then I did a lot of orthopaedic work, so that led me to massage therapy. So I did massage and I was a fitness professional. And the problem is my clients would ask me health advice. And here in the States—I'm a law-abiding citizen—I could have talked to them about nutrition and supplements, but I wasn't allowed to with those things that I did.  So then I looked—and there's something in the States, it's a naturopathic physician, naturopathic doctor. I know you guys have naturopathic there. They're a little bit different. It's a four year postgraduate degree. So you go to four years of university, and the traditional four years. And then you have your doctorate. That sounded really good to me because I was already into alternative health. I was devouring books, on health, on herbs, on homeopathy, everything in the health. And that was the umbrella for all these things that I was interested. And I thought, wow, that's great, perfect.  So I went through four years of that. Spent way too much money. But it's also where I met my wife. So that is money rally well spent. Yes. Although we both went to school there. So we doubled our debt, essentially, by marrying each other. But what we quickly realized is that it didn't really prepare us to do what we wanted to do. And it didn't take long. I was sitting in front of patients, and I honestly—I didn't think I know what I was doing. I didn't feel qualified. I spent all that money over the four years of school with great classes, but it sounded like all these great topics but...  And so that started me—and this is all to tell you this story— where I realized I had to teach myself everything, that I had to reteach myself physiology. I know we're going to talk about detox today. But how I stumbled upon that what I'll call is the truth about detox. And so where I am today is I believe in old medicine, I believe in the body heals itself. But Western science and Western medicine is incredible. I mean, we owe much of what we know about the human body, in terms of mechanisms and pathways and how herbs even work in the first place, to Western science.  So what I tried to do is bridge the best of both, is to take the alternative nutritional functional health world, which is great for some things but horrible in others, and combine that with conventional Western medicine, which is great in some things, but horrible in others, and I try to connect the two. So I hope that gives you much of... Lisa: That’s brilliant.  Dr. Bryan: I love science. Lisa: And I love the way you sort of combine the traditional or the alternative with the allopathic sort of model because they do both have good things, and they do both have problems.  Dr. Bryan: Absolutely. And I can tell you, I love science. But I'll be the first to tell you that science will never prove some of the things in life—of the most important things, in relationships, in love, in health. We try to study how the brain works and I don't think we have any idea. We try to—we're doing genetic testing now, I don’t think… We talked about the microbiome, I don't think we know much of anything when it comes to these things. So, science is fascinating. It's so fun. It can occupy you for hours upon hours upon hours of reading and the rabbit hole of PubMed, but I don't think it will ever offer some of the answers.  So that's kind of where I live is that we live in this expansive universe full of all sorts of possibilities. But here on Earth, science really helps us a lot understand certain things, but it doesn't contain all the answers. Lisa: It's a very humble approach. And I think a really good place to start because we know a lot, we don't know a lot more. But we have to sort of work with what we've got and the best knowledge. And this is something that I've really enjoyed out of like, I think I've devoured everything I could find on the internet of yours. And I must say sometimes, I'm like my brain is spinning, trying to keep up and it's fantastic. And I was talking to a colleague who's also really into you and he's got a master's in physiology and he said, ‘Well, I struggled, too, so don't feel bad’. But you do have a way of putting things into analogies that I have just found absolutely fascinating. And today we're going to go into detoxing. And there is an analogy in this story that I've heard you speak of a couple of times that really went, ‘Aha, I get it now’. So definitely want to delve into that analogy. But so just to start with, with detoxing. Let's look at what detoxing in the public realm—if you like—in the popular—the magazines. People talk about detoxing a lot. And I think that we don't understand what detoxing is. So let's start there. What is a proper detox? Dr. Bryan: So what you just described, that's the problem. It's a mess. I was just in the checkout line at the grocery store, two days ago. I even took a picture of my phone to send my wife and it was like, ‘A faster way to do a liver detox’, and it was some medical doctor. I thought, ‘I'm not even going to open that magazine. It's going to be garbage’.  You’re right. People say, ‘drink a little bit of lemon juice in the morning, and that's a great way to detoxify the body’. And then I was in the airport one day, and I saw these foot pads that you put on your feet to help pull toxins out of your feet. And then there's the foot pads, and there's colonics. And there's all these different things, and that's why conventional medicine doesn't believe any of this because you have these people saying, ‘Well, when you skin brush, then you're detoxifying yourself’, maybe, maybe not. But no wonder they think that we're a bunch of quacks because if you stand back and look at all that nonsense, it does look like quackery.  In the 80s, detox, the only detox there—unless you were like a hippie—in the 80s, was like a celebrity going through some kind of rehab for some kind of addiction, alcohol or drug addiction, then they would go through some kind of rehabilitation, so that was a detox. That was the only detox there was. And then all of a sudden everybody started getting on this detox bandwagon. And the thought is that we are bombarded with—we’re basically these toxic waste cesspools of disgusting that’s inside of our bodies, and the only way to get rid of it is to do these to detoxify.  Now, there's some truth to that, some truth. But our body is designed to—a better way to say detoxification is biotransformation, first of all. So there are two different types of we'll call—I don't even like the word toxins, quite honestly. You can call them xenobiotics, starting with it with an ‘x’. Xenobiotic means it's something foreign to the body. You can also call them environmental pollutants, environmental toxins, whatever you’re going to call it. Some people say synthetic, but that's not true because Mercury is toxic to the body in high amounts. So, for lack of better terms, we can call them toxins, xenobiotics or whatever. But they're things that are foreign to the body that in excess can cause damage.  There's essentially, for simplicity sake, two forms, there's water soluble, and there's fat soluble. Water soluble, by and large, I don't think we have to deal with too much, because our body is really good at getting rid of it. Our body is so much water already, we don't have to do anything to it. If we have access to something that's toxic, and it's water soluble, our body's pretty good at getting rid of it.  And when you look at the ways of getting rid of something, it's anywhere that water goes. So sweating, obviously, urinating, it's quite a bit of quite a water. In faeces, there's a small amount of water that gets expelled there. And even technically—and people have measured this but in tears or saliva, you can get rid of toxins too. So anything where water is leaving the body, then water soluble toxins are leaving as well. And I personally believe that those aren't much of a concern to us because our body... It's kind of like if you take a whole bunch of B vitamins. Technically, those can be toxic in high amounts but they're water soluble in your urine turns glow in the dark yellow if you take too much of that because your body is getting rid of it. Same with vitamin C or any of the water-soluble vitamins.  Interestingly—and I hadn't thought of this as a way of describing this, but the vitamins that they say to be careful with are the fat-soluble ones like vitamin A, D, and K because they can accumulate and then those are the toxic ‘vitamins’ if you look at conventional medicine. So fat soluble toxins, those ones are more of concern because they can get stored and the body has to work a little bit harder in order to get rid of them. In other words, you have to take something that's fat soluble, turn it into something that's water soluble, and then the body can get rid of it and all those pathways that we talked about.  So the body has built in detoxification or bio transformation processes—everybody says it's the liver but it's not. The enzymes and steps necessary for this are found in a number of tissues and in quite a bit. So, things that have exposure to the outside world, the skin has this disability, the liver does, the kidneys do, the lungs incidentally do, the testes in a guy does when we consider the location as exposure to the outside world more so than some of the internal organs. And we can go into the details of this but basically this fat-soluble toxin that can cause damage to the body gets metabolized or bio transformed, turned into a water-soluble toxin, if you will, a compound. And then is easily excretable in—again sweat, tears, saliva, urine, or a little bit in faeces. So yes, that's kind of a nutshell version of it, I think. Lisa: Okay, so. So let's look quickly at what are toxins and what sort of a fix they have in the body? So we're talking things like your heavy metals, your Mercury's that you mentioned, your pesticides, your preservatives in your food, there's chemicals that were exposed to. Dr. Bryan: So that's honestly—this is part of my problem with the industry is we can't even decide on what a toxin is because the toxin if you think about it, a toxin is something that could cause damage to the body. Right? So then you could say a reactive oxygen species or oxidative stress is a toxin, technically. Hormones, if you have too much of a hormone, can that cause damage to the body? It absolutely can. So, then all of a sudden is a hormone a toxin.  And so that's where we start to run into problems, is that we just throw out these terms like toxins. Well, what is that something that? Something that damages the body? Well, a hammer, if you hit me on the head is going to damage my body. Is that a toxin? Let's say, oh, it's internally. All right, well, so how about lipid polysaccharides from a gram-negative bacteria? That's an infection. Is that a toxin? Yes, it is. So that's our—aflatoxin, you have mould in your house. And so, it ends up being this really broad term that people have a hard time describing.  Now, so what I would suggest. The one that people are most talking about, that's why I think environmental pollutant, or environmental toxins, make more sense because usually what people are talking about are things that are outside of us that get inside of us and cause damage of some kind. And there's three, let's just say major categories of that there's actually more. One would be things off the periodic table. So that's the heavy metals, by and large, so aluminium, arsenic, mercury, all those types. Even copper, copper is toxic. Iron is toxic.  Then there's—loosely the category that you can call persistent organic pollutants. And that's all the ones that get all the press, like this phenol and phthalates and dioxins and all those different things, pesticides. And then there's the ones that you could call them volatile organic chemicals, or VOCs, those ones are usually inhaled. So, you paint, you’re repainting your house, or your apartment and the smell that you get, or cosmetics or toiletries, cleaning products. If you buy a brand new piece of furniture and that off gassing, carpets. So those are the— mean, there's more, but those are the three major categories that I consider so... But then you consider where those come from, in the food that we eat, in the water that we drink, in the air that we breathe, it literally is everywhere. Lisa: Yes. So we are toxic.  Dr. Bryan: Well, yes. We are. And I long time ago would say that we're all toxic, and everybody needs to detoxify. And I've tempered that a little bit because like for example, there's one published paper that suggests—well, okay, I should take a step back—everybody is exposed, everybody is exposed, period, end of story. To prove otherwise, I would need to see that proof.  Now, it's going to be different considerably, however, based on your location, where you live. In New Zealand versus America. Here in America, I'm in Maryland, but that's going to be a lot different. I'm near farmland. So, we might have exposure to pesticides, but not so much some of the other things that might have been more of an urban area. In New Zealand there’s other different things.  So also that depends on one's lifestyle. So me and my family largely eat organic food as much as possible. We use—I don't say green cleaning products, but we use better cleaning products than just the standard things. And so we probably have less exposure than somebody following a standard diet using standard toiletries, cosmetics, yes, and all those different things too. So, we all have exposure. Yes, that's it. I think I believe that's irrefutable.  Is it stored in all of us? And I'm going to go ahead and say yes, but to different degrees. For example, you said you're a professional athlete. You have sweat a lot more than the majority of people. There's also some really interesting evidence showing that exercise actually upregulates certain detoxification or bio transformation enzymes. So you might actually be more adapted to that. Lisa: Another good reason to do it.  Dr. Bryan: Absolutely. You know what? It’s so funny, like, you know you're supposed to, but then you just see more and more reasons. And it does, it absolutely has been shown in papers, to upregulate certain detoxification enzymes. In addition to the fact that you're sweating more so than somebody who's sedentary. So, I haven't seen any literature on this, but I believe that most athletes are probably less toxic than the general public.  Lisa:  The sweat is also a preferred pathway for some of the toxins to leave the body.  Dr. Bryan: If used badly, yes. The skin has been called the third kidney before, which is kind of a cute thing to call it. I mean, is it or is it not? I mean, it's not like you're urinating out of your skin. So that should be gross. Next time you sweat, think of that. No, but it's a major excretory organ.  And I will add this, there's some really interesting, really interesting scientific papers — small, unfortunately, not a lot of money in this industry to test this stuff. But they will take a group of people, and they will test their blood, their urine, and their sweat for a specific xenobiotic or environmental pollutant. And they will find in many cases, it's not in the blood, it's not in the urine, but it is in the sweat. Lisa: Exactly. Yes. The preferred pathway, yes.  Dr. Bryan: That's an indication that a) it's being stored and b)... Yes, whether it's a preferred pathway or not, what that means to me is that it's probably stored in the tissues. Because you think about the blood, the blood is circulatory and it's bringing things around. The kidneys are filtering the blood. So, if it's not in the blood, that makes sense, it's not in the urine. What that means is it's stored. It's if it's not coming out in the urine, that means it's not in the blood, that means it's stored in tissues. And so, it isn’t going out. So whether it's preferred by the body or not, I don't know. But that just means that it's right there, right close to the tissues.  Lisa: Yes, In coming out.  Dr. Bryan: Right close to the periphery, and it's coming out via the interstitial fluid and stuff surrounding itself. But here's another thing to consider, too, when you talked about the demographic of the population that listens to this is, while most athletes probably have less—I mean, when it gets a broad state, you can't say yes, might have less because of exercising, because of firing. But are they exposed to something more than might somebody else be?  So for example, if they're drinking out of plastic bottles that have been warmed up sitting in the sun all day, like might they have more excess pollutants...  Lisa: More BPA... Dr. Bryan: ….these people are outside exercising in polluted area.  Lisa: Exhaust fumes.  Dr. Bryan: Exhaust fumes. I mean, you think about your respiratory rate when you're exercising, your respiratory rate is quite a bit higher than somebody who's sedentary. So then all of a sudden all those... Lisa: And oxidative stress Dr. Bryan: Yes, absolutely. So there's a lot of factors to consider for sure. Lisa: Yes. So we've looked at—these are the broad categories of toxins. And yes, we're probably all toxic, and we need to be doing or thinking about doing a detox—I don't want to say protocol—but to thinking about it constantly detoxing. And you touched on the couple of studies here where they measure the sweat, they measure the urine, and so on, and they got different measurements for different things. That's one of the problems, isn’t it?  The assessment criteria. Because obviously, if we're doing a detox, we want to be able to assess, are we actually getting—and when you dived into the literature of assessments in defining out which is the best—how do I see if I'm toxic? What did you find in the literature around all the assessments? Dr. Bryan: So in the functional medicine world, there's no shortage of—well just tests in general and really attractive, good looking tests that when you look at them, you want to run them. Like, ‘Well, I would like to run this on myself. forget my patients or clients I want to run these tests’. The scientific validity on a lot of these tests is not there at all, despite what people might say or think.  Yes, so I'm not opposed to testing for toxins. But there's so many variables to consider, and the practitioners that are running them, I don't think are considering these. So I think a lot of people are using them—they're wasting their money on them because they're not considering all these variables. So, for example, the first question to ask is, ‘what tissue do you test’? Do you test the blood? Do you test the urine? There are hair tests. Technically, in the literature, they test fingernails for toxin exposure. There's so many different ways of testing–fat biopsy, you want to take a needle into your fats, take some of it out and test that.  And actually—I'll say since I said that—fat biopsies are considered to be the gold standard for internal toxic burden, and that would make sense if that's where they're stored. But the problem is, according to research—and this is done on humans, mind you—that different fat depots in the body store differing amounts of things. So, you might inject it into your, your, your butt fat, and find a whole bunch of one thing, and then you do it to your abdominal fat, and you come up with a higher amount of something else. So, if that's the gold standard, and you can't even have any consistency in the human body, then that's not going to be accurate, either. And if that's the gold standard, then that's not accurate, then none of them are going to be accurate. So, the short version is there are some—I guess I'll say, like validated as much as you can questionnaire—subjective questionnaires that one can take and get an idea of how toxic they may or may not be. Now, it's not quantitative. It's quantitative in the sense that you get a numerical value for the score. But it's not quantitative, in terms of like, This is how toxic I am. I am 80% toxic out of 100’. It's just a subjective questionnaire. But if somebody were to take a questionnaire like this, and scores high... Lisa: We've got a problem Dr. Bryan: ...and then does a few detox rounds or whatever, for a few months, six months, nine months, whatever it is, and then does it again and their scores are lower, that's good enough to suggest that they're doing better. And what's interesting about some of these questionnaires, is they not only asks things like, ‘do you live around industry? Do you have exposure to petrol or to gas’? But your symptoms as well. And so it takes all of these considerations, like, ‘Yes, I live and work around a lot of chemicals, but I don't have symptoms’ versus somebody that has a whole bunch of symptoms that are associated with toxic exposure, but they don't live around them. So, it does—they really are comprehensive. Lisa: I’d like to get a couple of the links to those if we could possibly see.  Dr. Bryan: And listen, it's free. That's the very nice thing. You don't have to spend 300 US dollars on some blood tests that may or not be accurate. And what people are really interested in is, ‘how toxic are you’? Well, if my surroundings and my symptoms suggest that I am, based on these questionnaires, that's good enough for me. And as opposed to test, if you do it six months later, and it's approved, then I think you're probably doing a little bit better. Lisa: It's a little bit like your cell blueprint, which I found brilliant, by the way, and if anyone wants to check out that we can put the links. That questionnaire that you've developed there gives the practitioner the direction to go and we don't have a specific, ‘This isn’t definitely but hey, you might want to check your thyroid. Hey, you might want to go and check if you've got a parasitic infection, or whatever the case may be’. And I find that a brilliant system really. Dr. Bryan: But isn't that what a practitioner wants to do? I mean, the patients come in, and they want to know, ‘Well, where should I head first’? And detox questionnaire—and again, so everybody is exposed period, everybody's exposed. Everybody has some degree of storage. Now, I don't know how much. They might be really toxic. They might be cut. Who knows? But everybody has some degree of storage. The question is, then, is, ‘Are your symptoms—because of xenobiotic exposure—are in storage or not’?  And that's where these questionnaires come in handy. If you take a questionnaire like that, and I mean, because there's people out there, believe me, there's plenty of them. Everybody's toxic, everybody needs to detoxify. There's an old book called Detoxify or Die. I mean, if that's not scary enough. It’s a good book, but I mean, it's not necessary. So we all have exposure, it's we all have some degree of storage. The question is, when somebody is not feeling optimal, Is it because of that or not?  And so you can't run around screaming ‘everybody's toxic’ because I don't know that they are. But if you score high on one of those questionnaires, then that's the direction you'd want to look into. And if you score low, I mean, listen, people will still argue it, ‘Well. We're still all toxic’. I wouldn't go down that road. It wouldn't be the first thing that I’ll thought about.  Lisa: It’s not your first protocol Dr. Bryan: Oh, no. The questionnaires... Absolutely.  Lisa: Yes, I think that's what I do as a practitioner too, as epigenetics practitioner, and a health coach, is go for the low hanging fruit first. Because we can go in 100 directions and I can confuse the hell out of my clients and they can be like, ‘what the hell am I doing’? But if you are going for the ones late tackle, best piece of the puzzle, and then work your way up the food chain is so to speak—and actually find out which ones are the most important.  Dr. Walsh, I mean—we're going to put the links in the show notes—you've developed your own detox system if you like, which I'm really keen to share with everybody and for them to check out. But let's go in now to the actual four phases of detox: zero, one, two, and three, and you have four, isn't it? In most people—or some people are at least aware of phase one and two detox within the cell. And when I first heard you talk about this, I was like, ‘Wow, okay, there’s a zero and there’s a three’. Okay, can you explain in a nutshell, what the body does when it gets a toxin? It's in the blood for some reason, it's gotten there. What actually happens next in these detox phases?  Dr. Bryan: All right, well just to make it really comprehensive. I'll tell you, when you said when it gets into the blood, what happens? So when it gets in the blood, it can be detoxified, biotransformed, and excreted. But the best way to describe this is, so if it's in the bloodstream, wish I have something to sort of model this with but so like, so the bloodstream, and then you have you have a cell next to the bloodstream. Now there's—in physiology, there's what's called a concentration gradient. And these membranes… And so let's say we have the bloodstream in a tube—I really wish I had some kind of props here. I’m looking around. I have—my son has a Santa hat, razor blade, I don't know, I don't have much around here. Anyhow, so you have the bloodstream and here you have a cell. Now, if there's more in the blood of this, whatever it is, and less in the cell, it will tend to go into the cell. And it's usually fat cells, because it's fat soluble, it will tend to go into adipocytes or fat cells.  And so it's concentration gradient based, which also means—so that's how it gets stored. If there's more in the blood and less in the cell, then it will tend to go into the cell. And that's when it gets stored. There's a really, really cool paper that discusses how adipocytes used to be considered to be just an energy repository, but then turned out to be an organ because they excrete over a hundred different things. But one of the additional roles they suggest is that it is this. It is to store toxins or xenobiotics, or things that could otherwise damage the body—they're fat soluble, which would make sense.  Now, if that's a concentration grid. Now let's say we're in a fasted state, and we haven't eaten anything and or exposure. If there's less in the blood, and more in the fat cell, then it will leak out. And it's based on a concentration grade, it's based on homeostasis. There’s some ridiculous stories out there that will say, ‘the body won't release toxins if it's not healthy enough, and it doesn't think it can deal with them’. That's not true. What I've seen is that it leaks out from a homeostasis for a concentration gradient if there's less than the blood and more in the cell. So we are constantly leaking this stuff into our blood, if it's stored. Now this gets amplified. And I talked about this in the course, during lipolysis. So in a fasted state, in a catabolic state—not even not even losing fat, but just in a catabolic state which we go through at night. So if you stop eating at 8pm and you're sleeping, you're in a catabolic state, for example.  If you're in a state of fasting, or lipolysis, then that's going to speed up mobilization. So now—and all the studies I've ever seen on mammals or humans show this. In a hypocaloric state, or fasted state levels of xenobiotics go up in your blood. And I'll say it again because that's huge. In a fasted state or a hypocaloric state, like dieting, then if there's stored xenobiotics, it will dump into the bloodstream, and those levels go up. And they always show that every single time because that's a state of lipolysis as a catabolic state.  So then now we're back in the blood. So whether it's at an immediate exposure, or it was just released, the rest of the story remains the same. So then what happens? And I should just say too, I mean, I get frustrated with pieces of the industry. There's some people that will say, ‘Well, it's not a detox if it's not a cellular detox. If you don't detox yourself, then you're not’...  This happens at the cellular level, as all detoxes is a cellular detox. So what I'm about to describe next is the cell.  So let's say we have that xenobiotic it's floating around in the blood, we either just had exposure, or it came out of a fat cell. So in one of the cells, like the liver, the kidneys, the skin that we said has the ability to do this, there are four phases of detox. So if you picture just a cube, all I have is a mug, but I have a cube. Then there needs to be a door coming in and a door coming out, that's going to be two of the phases. And then once it's inside, there's two other things that are going to happen to this.  So here's our cell, we have a fat soluble compound—I'm looking around for some—we have a fat soluble. Lisa: It’s like your room, isn’t it?  Dr. Bryan: Well, that's the way that's why I've said it before. So yes, I mean, you could just use it as that. So in the room that you're in, or even a car quite honestly would work. So if you're in a room, you’re the cell, that's the cell, let's just say it's a liver cell. So when the door opens, that's phase zero detoxification. That's an actual phase. It was recently discovered in the early 2000s. Most people haven't heard of it but it's legitimate, things can block this. So if that happens, then that's a problem, clearly. So phase zero is when the door opens and the fat soluble compound comes into your room, into where you were.  Lisa: Into the cell. Dr. Bryan: Into the cell, right. And once it's there, it has to go through two phases of detox. And you said I use analogies—quite honestly, I kind of make them up on the fly. Lisa: That’s awesome.  Dr. Bryan: Well, I mean, I don't even know what I said. But I think in the past, what I've said...  Lisa: It was an angry dude—a person—we make the person a toxin who’s just entered the room.  Dr. Bryan: Oh yes. All right. I make him up on the fly until now. So all right, yes, yes, I can go with that one. So you have the room, the room’s a cell, a person is on the outside of your room, they come in, that's phase zero. And that's all it is in the cell is just a little protein tube. So the person comes in, they're fat soluble person. And they're angry. So what did we say? Lisa: You stick a sticky note on the head.  Dr. Bryan: Is that what I said?  Lisa: Yes. Dr. Bryan: Let’s make them more mad. That's right. Okay. See, listen, I'm telling you make it up right then and there. All right, you're right. You're right. You're right.  So the person comes in, and they will damage your room. But to incite them and make them even more angry. Yes, that’s right. You put a little sticky note, like what was your little yellow sticky notes, and you put them on the forehead, that makes them really mad. Even more mad than they were in the first place. And now you can calm them down. But if you don't, they're going to start flipping over your desk, and just totally, totally worse than they were in the first place. They were angry when they came in. But now they're even angrier. But you can hand them a $100 bill. And they're going to say, ‘All right, I was angry but now I'm not anymore. I'm good. You just handed me something. So I'll go ahead and quietly leave the room now’. And then when they walk out another door of the room, then that would be phase three.  So to put that—and thanks for reminding me of my analogy. But biochemically speaking, so you have a fat soluble compound, like a phthalate or a dioxin, or whatever it might be. So it literally has to get in the cell in the first place. Now, researchers used to think it was a fat-soluble membrane, fat soluble compound, and would just go right in. And that's not the case. It needs a channel in order to bring it in. That's phase zero, literally it is phase zero. And why is it phase zero? It was because they discovered this after they already knew about phase one and phase two, but they didn't have any numbers before then and they didn't even know it existed. So in the early 2000s, they said, ‘Well, we'll name it phase zero’. So that's the entry of a fat-soluble toxin, let's just say into hepatocyte, liver cell.  Phase one: reactions. There's a few different kinds. They’re like oxidation reduction type of thing, hydrolysis. Basically, what happens is that when in the sticky note what it had on it, it had an OH, hydroxyl group. So you put a hydroxyl group on this person, or you exposed a hydroxyl group that was already present but wasn't fully exposed. Now the problem is after we put that sticky note on their forehead, and they got even more angry is that toxin beforehand could cause damage to the body. It could cause oxidative stress or DNA damage or endocrine disruption or citric acid cycle, mitochondria, whatever was unique to that particular toxin. But now that it has OH exposed or added on to it via phase one, it is water soluble, first of all. It's water soluble, which is cool. Now your body can get rid of it. However, it's considered to be an intermediate metabolite, and is considered to be more damaging than the original xenobiotic.  Now, it's not true of every single time. And that's the thing, there are too many of these compounds to make blanket statements. People will say it's more toxic. No, it's not. It may be more damaging—I'm not going to say more toxic. It may cause more damage now that it's water soluble with this hydroxyl group exposed. But then phase two, when you handle this angry—now really angry person, a $100 bill US dollars. I wouldn't let you guys—you hand them a $100 bill or a bunch of money, they're not angry anymore. They're still water-soluble, they were but now phase two is considered a conjugation reaction and conjugation is adding something to it.  And so people that are familiar with phase two are familiar with things like methylation or sulphation, or glucuronidation, or amino acid conjugation, any of those things but what gets handed is this: so sulfation, you hand them a sulphur group, methylation, it hands them a methyl group, amino acid conjugation, it's usually glycine, glycine will go, glutathione conjugations glutathione, so acetylation and acetyl groups. So the xenobiotic gets handed to it, what's unique to that particular one, if that makes sense. You can make it really easy to talk about hormones like sex hormones, go through the same pathway—the testosterone, the estrogen. They go through the same pathway. Lisa: They do, and neurotransmitters as well. Dr. Bryan: Yes, cytokines, immunoglobulin, antibodies Lisa: And dopamine and all of that?  Dr. Bryan: Yes, by and large, by and large, yes. So then it gets phased two. It gets something handed to. Let's say, it gets a sulphur group and went through sulfation. Now, it's no longer damaging to the body. Now it's relatively benign. It was damaging as its original compound. It came in through phase zero, it was made potentially more damaging by exposing or adding on a hydroxyl group, depending on what the compound was, and depending on the biochemical pathway went through, but then when it gets conjugated, it's still water soluble, but now it's not damaging. And can there—if phase three, that second door is open, can go out of the door.  Now remember, so all that does—and this is a really important part—there's a lot of misunderstandings of what phase three is. Phase three is merely a tube, leaving that cell, which means that, this thing now, in terms of physiology goes into the interstitial fluid surrounding cells.  Lisa: And it’s water-soluble at this point.  Dr. Bryan: It’s water-soluble in the interstitial fluid, and can be excreted in sweat. It can go through the lymphatic system, which is going to pick up some of the junk of the interstitial fluid but that just dumps itself in the bloodstream anyways, which that means it'll probably end up in the kidneys and get excreted out in urine. But a lot of this can end up going in—since it happens in the liver, the liver will get rid of its these...  Lisa: ...products  Dr. Bryan: ...through bile because the route from the liver to the intestines is via bile.  Lisa: Why is this not phase four, then? Like phase three should be the thing leaving the cell. Dr. Bryan: It is, that's phase three. Lisa: Phase four should be like actually the excretion method. Dr. Bryan: You can call it phase—or at some point, you're going to have too many phases. You’ll be like, the 10 phases of detox. It will just confuse everybody. But after it leaves the cell, the most critical piece is excretion. And I mean, we're not talking about this part yet but I'll just say, the three pieces, there's four phases to detox. But the three things that must happen for somebody to actually detoxify, and I say must with a capital MUST, is one is they have to be mobilized. You have to get them out of the storage in first place. Two is you have to go through biotransformation, which is the phase zero, one, two, and three. The third part is they have to be excluded. If they're not excreted—and this is a really important part—if it's not excreted, it can go into another cell. That conjugation reaction that can get undone, there are enzymes that will undo that conjugation. So you handed this sulphur... Lisa: You’re backing in the shot again basically. Dr. Bryan: Well, and then it becomes this damaging thing again, and can get stored in another tissue if it doesn't get excreted, which, incidentally, is why I have a major problem with most fasting programmes. Honestly, most weight loss programmes in sedentary people. I mean, if you take a fitness competitor...  Lisa: An athlete’s all right, they're going to sweat it out.  Dr. Bryan: They'll probably be okay. But if you take somebody who has just been storing their whole life, they've never really exercised, they get to be 45 years old. They wear a certain weight during their wedding. Now, they're 45, they don't feel sexy anymore. Maybe it's a good time to do a real weight loss programme, the chances of them flooding their system with these things is tremendous. And if there is not an active role in, especially that's the mobilization, that's the first part.  But to properly detoxify these, and more importantly, excrete these things, then it's just going to go somewhere else. And I will say there's some evidence. It's weak evidence, unfortunately, there's not a lot of research on this, but midlife weight loss might be associated with an increased risk of things like dementia and certain chronic diseases. Lisa: I want to sit on this topic a little bit and dive into, because I had some questions when I started to understand this whole process, it really rang some alarm bells for me. For people who do like yo-yo dieting, they're losing weight, they're gaining it, they're losing weight, they're gaining it. They're actually doing a lot of damage than somebody who's just lost it. Another thing is if you're losing it slowly over time as compared to just dumping it all because you've done a juice fast that someone told you was a fantastic detox. And then you've dumped all this into the system. And this can have impacts years later, like we just mentioned, like dementia, Parkinson's disease, all of these things.  Because I was listening to one of your biochemistry or blood chemistry lectures, I can't remember which one, something to do with cardiovascular system. And you were talking about the triglyceride molecule, or whatever you call it. And how—if the legs are broken off—it’s free fatty acids get into the system and then this can clog up the system, cause insulin resistance, be a contributing factor to diabetes, all of these things. And I was like, ‘Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So, when I'm losing weight, which I think is a good thing for my body, I'm actually also doing some damaging things because I'm releasing these toxins or these free fatty acids or, or things that are actually causing trouble’.  So when we have a detox programme that's in the latest magazine, and even some of the scientific like Dr. Valter Longo’s Fasting Mimicking Diets, which is a great—lot of research gone into it, but it's looking at the mobilization, the autophagy, the mitophagy, all of these good pieces of the puzzle, but it hasn't actually considered the excretion. It does look at the micronutrients required for phase one and two, which is fantastic.  So you've got three pillars here that you're talking about. First is mobilization, of the fats or the toxins into the bloodstream from stored places, like your fat cells. Then we've got phase one and two, where it's processed, the detox—actual detox situation. And for that, we need a whole lot of micronutrients, which I want to touch on briefly like using your selenium and your B vitamins and goodness knows what. If you don't have those—your sulphur groups. If you don't have those, you're going to have trouble. And then we need to look at how do we get this stuff out. So what can we do to support the body to do binders or I don't know what the sweating protocols or saunas or whatever?  I had one question that for me personally, I've got a mum that had a massive aneurysm four years ago, and my listeners know about my story. I've just written a book about her journey back for massive brain damage. Now she's lost 30 something kilos over this last four and a half years, when I have been rehabilitating her. She does not sweat. And she's 79 years old, she's never really sweated. She doesn't do that very well, naturally. And she also now at 79, can't exercise intensively enough to sweat. I can't put her in a sauna because here temperature regulation has gone with her brain function. I have to be really, really careful, then if I make you lose any more weight, don't I? With brain damage... Dr. Bryan: Well, it’s a hard thing to say for sure. I mean, first of all, with all that weight loss already—I don't want to say the damages—you have no idea.  Lisa: Yes, so hopefully it was not a big dump.  Dr. Bryan: Yes, so there are some interesting human studies, looking at slow versus more rapid weight loss and how much xenobiotic levels go up, and how it affects thyroid hormone, and the basal metabolic rate and all these different things to which is their recommendation is to do slower detox, but like I said, I would recommend how about, I mean start a weight loss, I would support doing detoxification pathways while you're doing the weight loss programme so that you can get rid of these things better, and it doesn't cause damage.  Yes, so in terms of yo-yo dieting, again everybody's a little different. I can't say this happens to everyone. It depends on your diet, your lifestyle, where you live, and how much you've accumulated. I mean, some people don't have a whole lot, I would suspect. But yes, so there in fact, there is at least one study that comes to mind using mice and yo-yo dieting. And what basically it showed with them is that during periods of weight loss or catabolism, that their xenobiotic levels would go up. And then when they stopped in the hypocaloric state, they went back into a more of a hyper caloric state, that the xenobiotics that weren't excreted went somewhere else. And when I mean somewhere else, like a different tissue, so it absolutely can go from one tissue. Absolutely. Absolutely.  In fact, I wanted to tell you this. Anecdotally, I just talked to a guy—I don't know about a month ago—who used to work at a water fast detox clinic in Thailand. And he worked there for a really long time. And he's said that their people would fly to Thailand to go to this water fast detox clinic that had no business to do so. They were not healthy, it's more of a novelty. Like, ‘hey, let's go to Thailand and go to the water fast place for two weeks and do a detox, then we'll go back and live our life normally like we did before, eating a bunch of garbage’. And he said, they had no business doing it, but they would come back once or twice a year. And the same people he said would get worse, that I mean, and horrible, like liver problems or teeth were falling out, and just wrecking them. And it was fascinating to hear that story. He didn't know why. Lisa: Yes, and I can guess why. Dr. Bryan: Well, that's what I mean is to actually have real world experience, possibly. There's no proof of this, but to see these people that would do a one week, two weeks supervised water fast and then come live their life and then come back, and their health was worse. And I think if I had to bet I would say that's probably why. And consider, it's just a water fast. So what were they not doing, is they weren't exceeding, they weren't sweating. They didn't take any binders. They weren't doing anything. All they were doing is just water. And so, to me, they were flooding their system in a very—almost completely fasted state except for water, which is essentially fasting. Flooding their system, potentially with xenobiotics, not excreting them all and then reabsorbing them, putting them in different tissues.   Lisa: Re-depositing them in your brain or something. So you could shift the mercury molecule, for example, from your fat cell where it was pretty safe. Put it into your blood and then it get redeposited in your brain and cause real strife.  Dr. Bryan: And he hasn't contacted me yet. I think he will probably be angry. But Dr. Longo you mentioned, I mean, the guy's brilliant. He's brilliant, he’s great.  Lisa: Oh, yes, no doubt. Dr. Bryan: And it's super, super cool what he's doing, that's a huge concern that I have, though: is that you take an average person and you put them on what's essentially like, what 300 to 500 calorie diet for a period of time, and if you don't support the biochemical—so that's mobilization for sure. If you don't support the second part, which is detoxification pathways, and then the third pick is excretion, then you're potentially making them worse longer. And again, who cares about autophagy and mitophagy if you're just redistributing these xenobiotics somewhere? And it’s a huge concern. It's a legitimate one. And I’m not saying what he's done is bad, I just think it's a piece that is missing.  Lisa: A discussion needs to be had around this. Dr. Bryan: Yes, well, and that's true of... So, take the Gwyneth Paltrow juice test. It's the same thing. You're not binding or excreting anything. You're hypocaloric, yes. Are you improving detoxification? Well, not if you have things like celery and carrots because those might actually inhibit as it turns out. So you're not detoxing. So you're mobilizing, not detoxifying and not excreting—that's bad news, I think, long term. Lisa: Well, let's look—talk about a couple other things that are in the phase one and two, in phase three, actually, more specifically. Some of the compounds that we consider great compounds for a lot of things, like you mentioned celery and carrots. I mean, that's what people juice with. I mean, I know I just had a celery juice for breakfast. I'm not into detox, but celery in itself is not a bad thing. But it can be a mild phase three. I believe inhibitor is in curcumin, milk thistle, some of these things that we consider detox herbs, if you like, and especially in supplement doses versus food doses can actually have the opposite of fate. Can you go into just a little bit of that, what nutrients support phase one and two and three, and which one's actually inhibited? And why is it counter-intuitive?  Dr. Bryan: Well, the counter intuitiveness of it has to do with the dose, turns out. So well, and again, I mean, as humans, good lord, we've been wrong far more times than we've been right. I mean, as a husband, I can tell you, that's true. And father, it's like a daily basis. But so what we did with milk thistle was we say, milk thistle is good for liver liver detox is there for milk thistle is good for detox. And that's not true. And that's fine. I mean, that logical progression of thought makes sense, but it's not how it pans out. So it's dose related.  So, phase one. There's a lot of talk about phase one out there. Phase one are very basic, rudimentary biochemical processes. Oxidation reduction hydrolysis, if those suck in a person, detox is not your problem. They get highlighted a lot—phase one pathways. But in the end, people will say technically you need some B vitamins for this, but you need B vitamins to run most of the basic biochemical processes in the first place. So, honestly, phase one is not a phase I worry about too much in people. As long as they're nutrient sufficient, which basically means taking a good quality multi, they're probably—and I say big probably—they're probably fine with phase one. There are things incidentally, like some of those vegetables that you mentioned.  So this is where it gets crazy. In high doses, things like celery or apples or carrots can inhibit phase one a little

Have you ever met someone with magnetic energy?  That's Lisa Robertson! She picked a great song about starting new a new adventure away from home to become her own person and write her own story! To find Lisa Robertson on Social media... @LisaRoberton (FB) @lisasparklyclean (IG) Gonna stalk me on social?  Let me help you... @VirtuallyYouPodcastVa (FB & IG) ...heck, join me in my FB group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1884183095057195   **Full Transcript Intro
I have a question. What is your favorite song, and how do you connect with it? Is it when you fell in love, or through something really difficult? I'm your host Tiffany Mason. now join me as I interview others, and we take a walk down memory lane with them. Let's get lost in why that music matters to them. Turn up your radio and let's explore memories with a beat. Tiffany Hello podcast land, thank you for joining me for another episode. Today I have with me, Lisa Robertson. And I know Lisa from a networking group that I'm in. And she just has an amazing personality always bubbly. The minute she starts talking, you are drawn in. You want to know what she's talking about because of all her energy and excitement, which makes it very fun when she does share about her business. And then I was on Facebook, and she was playing the piano and singing and I was like, "Hello, this would be an obvious person to interview!" So I'm so excited to have you today, Lisa. Can you share a little bit about yourself with the audience? Lisa Yes, absolutely. Hey Tiffany, so glad to be on. So my name is Lisa and I originally grew up in Indiana. And loved it there. And then things happened later on in life and I moved to Missouri. So, I am here in Missouri with my husband of 13 years and we have two beautiful kids, Abby she's fixin to be nine and then Jack is seven. And they are so fun and they are in so many sports we just stay so busy, but we love it. Tiffany Well, two things... did you guys get snow the other day? Lisa Thankfully we did not. But girl, we have gotten so much rain and it's so cold. But we needed the rain so that has been wonderful. Tiffany So rain not wintry mix? Lisa No wintry mix, thank goodness! Tiffany Beautiful Lisa But I think it stayed west of us. Tiffany Yeah, I would either like rain or snow. But I hate when they were like "Okay we're calling for a wintry mix." You know, because I'm originally from Minnesota. Well, I'm really originally from Iowa. I feel like I've got to pay homage but a lot of my adult life I've spent in Minnesota. So, and then my second thing for you is your children are involved in a whole bunch of activities and sports. I mean, my older boys who are 20 and 16 did not do very many activities and Hanna does quite a few. And I was talking to somebody the other day I'm like, "She's so busy. I mean, I never had a kid do this many things." And then my friend sadly pointed out she's like, "Well, you're older too." So that made me a little bit sad. [Laughter] Okay, Lisa, will you please share with us what song you chose for today? Lisa Absolutely. I chose the song Unwritten by Natasha Bedingfield. It is such a great catchy song. I love it. So that's why I chose it. Tiffany I think it's funny because when I pulled it up for some reason I thought her name was Betingfield with T's. So I was like, "Oh, Bedingfield!" Okay. Lisa Learned something... Tiffany yes yes yes...okay and you shared it came out in 2004. And when you said that you said, "And that plays a role in the story too," so how do you connect with the song or what kind of memories are sparked or, you know? Lisa Yeah! Yeah, absolutely! So, I told you that I grew up in the great state of Indiana. And it...After high school, I graduated and just went to cosmetology school. So, after cosmetology school... I was the last kid at home. I have three older brothers and I was just kind of like, "I need something new. I need a new adventure in life." So I was reaching out to a couple of my friends and I used to travel down to Georgia for the summer and thought maybe I'd go live in Georgia for a while. And then, Missouri kind of just came out. I had two older brothers that went to college out here so I had that connection. So God just kind of opened those doors. My parents were at peace about it. And in 2004, I moved down to Missouri with one of my brothers. And so this song, I just I love life. It just like is such a peppy song if you haven't heard like it's phenomenal it's just something you want to sing at the top of your lungs. And it's just so energetic. And I remember that I would stand in my apartment bedroom. And I would just blare this song. Like I love just the part where it's "Staring at the blank page before you." I'm like yes like this is a new season in life for me. I was, you know, away from my parents. A new adventure out in Missouri where I really didn't know a whole lot of people besides my brother, and maybe some mutual friends that you know I met through them. Tiffany Yep Lisa But it was just a new thing. So I just loved that like it's a blank page. Like, here Lisa Robertson is in Missouri. And I, you know, the sky's the limit. So it's just it was just a good song for that, you know, story that was being written at that time. Tiffany So you did cosmetology, you didn't go to school out there though, that's just kind of your next step? Lisa Yeah, exactly. I just never felt really like led to go or to study a specific thing. And Cosmetology just had always been on my heart. So I did that. And what's so funny is, I thought I would totally be doing that when I moved up to Missouri. But to get my license over like you just have to take an open book test. It was the same hours from what Indiana was. But for some reason when I moved out here, my license took forever to transfer. So it was like a couple of months I'm like, "I can't just live out here with no job." Tiffany Right? Lisa So I ended up pursuing that and I would call like Jefferson City and Indianapolis like "Hey what's going on with my license?" And they had no answer. So I ended up... Yeah, I ended up getting a job at a bank in the meantime. And then, one day, I believe this is totally God, like it just about put on my mind to call Indianapolis and say "Hey, what is the address that you're sending my license to?" And that was it. They were just writing the incorrect zip code. So it was never getting to Jefferson City. Isn't that crazy? I mean I think that all had to play out just for you know God to work what he needed to do. Tiffany So that's so funny that is Jefferson City. I have a girlfriend. Okay, even further back. I was in show choir. Okay, I was in Urbandale, Iowa show choir. And we would always come down to Jefferson City for this huge competition. And we would always get I think like top three. But Jefferson City was like our number one competition. And we look forward to that competition, every school year! Funny...that it's just a small world. Lisa Right. Tiffany Yeah. Uh huh. So are you in Jefferson City now? LIsa No, so I actually live around the Springfield area. Tiffany Okay Lisa Yeah. So, anyhow. Tiffany So you ever see yellow people walking around? Lisa Ha, ha, No [Laughter] Tiffany Is that the Simpsons? Is it Springfield, Missouri or Springfield, Illinois? Lisa [Still Laughing] Missouri. That's so funny. Tiffany So, I was looking at the lyrics too and just kind of going over what stood out to me or whatever. First of all, Natasha Bedingfield is BEA-U-TIFUL! Lisa Isn't she though? Yea...Woo! Tiffany Wow! I did not realize. I guess I never paid attention when the song was popular or whatever. Lisa Right! Tiffany But I liked "Today is where your book begins." Because it kind of made me feel like, you know, God's mercies are new every morning. Lisa Yeah. Tiffany And so it was like okay this is the beginning. You know, a fresh start fresh slate. What does the world have for me? What does the world want for me? You know, what do I want from the world? Just kind of a cool thing... just imagery... I guess of that blank paper and it's time to start that book. Lisa Right. Yes, I love it and like the chorus is just awesome just that [Singing} "Feel no rain on your skin, no one else can feel it for you, only you can let it in, no one else, no one else will speak so words on your lips." I just like, I just want to like shout it! Like it's so good! Just like feeling good! Like no one else can feel that for you. You feel you know we just get emotions about different things and everyone gets affected in different ways and I'm just... I just love it!! It's great!! Tiffany Yes! I'm so thankful you sang it because you know the stupid laws, make it so I can't play the music on these episodes and it drives me insane. Lisa Sure sure... Tiffany I started trying to... Lisa I didn't know all those stipulations but yes yes, awful. Tiffany It drives me crazy and my girlfriend was asking me "Why don't you play the songs you talk about/" I'm like, "Because I legally can't." Lisa Right, you have a permit permission from Natasha Bedingfield or her like people... Tiffany Right, you have to get the you have to buy the license or have licensing permission. Which I asked and for like, you know, real famous songs, it's very expensive. And it's only like that song. So I'm like okay that stinks. And then I tried to think, "Okay, could I pull cover songs from YouTube? And then insert them?" And they said that even the lyrics are copyrighted. So, I'm like, "Oh my gosh this stinks so bad." I mean podcasts really could be that much more engaging I guess? Lisa Right Tiffany You know there's plenty of podcasts about songs. It'd be great to throw them in there. And I guess people used to do it like illegally and just, you know, hope to fly under the radar. But there must be new software, because in the last like quarter, more people have gotten their shows pulled down, and they haven't like the whole... Well, maybe not the whole history but in a decent chunk of history of podcasting in general. So there must be new technology where they're able to like you know run so many podcasts through, and be able to catch you know someone's using licensed music, so... Lisa Sure, I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. Tiffany Yeah, that's really a big fat bummer because the songs, they do they evoke emotion. And I want people to feel those emotions you know and I just, I feel like my audience gets jipped a little bit. Lisa So So anyhow, so that song has just been just phenomenal. Like when you were asking me to pick a song, I was like, "I love so many" And you know at different times, you know they change like you're just... Tiffany Yes Lisa ...effected... is like "Oh do I do something like right now?" But then this one just kept on popping back in my head. I thought this is it! Like and then I was reminded of when it came out. I was like, "Oh yeah, that's when it came up that's when life was just like a whole new chapter is beginning." And that's why it's just like so real and effective of song, of a song and lyrics to my life so that's just perfect. Tiffany So you wrote the chapter of moving to Jefferson City. Lisa MM Hmm Tiffany You wrote the chapter of getting married. Lisa MM Hmm Tiffany You wrote the chapter of having a daughter. Lisa Yeah Tiffany Wrote the chapter having your son. Lisa MM Hmm Tiffany What is next in this book of Lisa Robertson? Lisa Seriously I don't know. I mean you know this year has brought a lot of changes for a lot of different people. But I don't want to talk negative because I tried to be positive. But this year has brought actually some wonderful changes for our family. So I was working outside of the home. Now I stay home right now and work my, my business, my own hours. I get to spend more time with the kids and not feel rushed or just like, "I want to go home I want to sit at home because I've been, you know, working all day outside talking to people you know that gets tiring." Tiffany Yes, that's what I said to Hanna when I came on today I said "Mommy is so tired." I said "I'm not tired like I need to go to sleep." I said "I'm tired like I just need to sit." Lisa Yes. Yeah, exactly! And then my husband decided to switch careers during COVID. And so we're just really relying on God to provide and so anyhow so I'm not working. I'm at home, which is amazing and like I said, the kids are in so many sports, and I enjoy it. I don't feel like okay I just worked now we got to go to practices you know or games. I get to enjoy the day. And then I get to hang out with the kids afterwards. I'm not... I just get to do the mom stuff and the wife stuff which is phenomenal. So I am going to enjoy this chapter in my life as long as God gives it to me. But yeah so that's kind of what we're doing. I'm just reflecting back and just slowing down, as I know a lot of people will probably say during all this life is just slowing down. Priorities are definitely being shifted through all this but it's, it's great. So we're just enjoying life as a family together. Less anxiety, which is awesome, right? Tiffany Yes. Lisa And honestly just enjoying my husband. I have a lot more time with him so we get to enjoy that now so that's kinda... Tiffany That's awesome. Lisa Thank you Tiffany Yeah. Um, I was at a networking event today and I was talking to this gentleman. And he said you know halfway through COVID I just said to myself, "I hate my job." And he was like, I was talking to my wife and she was building, like she built websites. And so she was building that business. She just said "You know what, I'm at a good spot. I can carry us. You know, go ahead and do what you want to do, I'm here for this." And so he was able to do something different. People know a little bit about my story and it's kind of the same thing for myself. Where, at the beginning of COVID I was kind of trying to work from home/online-ish. And then that has kind of shifted since then where I'm doing podcasts, post production, management, that kind of stuff. And, yeah, I think COVID has been... Oh my gosh, okay sorry I have a thought interrupting that... yeah so I hear you saying how like oh slowing down and all that you know? And it's it's funny because I never got that, you know? I'm so jealous of everybody. And I know it's like, you know, the grass is greener on the other side kind of idea, probably. But I hear all these people talking about how they're still in quarantine or how they still don't have, you know, all the opportunities that.. I mean, down in Florida, we have a lot of opportunities the restaurants are open. But, you know, hearing these other people speaking about how they're still, you know, kind of locked in...Like Jeepers, must be nice to like have all day to have your clear thoughts and completely think through. And I think that the issue with what I have going on is that I'm trying to come up with all these ideas. I'm trying to come up with all these programs and concepts and you know marketing material and all that kind of stuff. And I just, I have my, my other job, you know that I haven't transitioned from yet. And I didn't get to slow down at all. Lisa Yeah Tiffany You know, and our kids are in school so they didn't get a very long Spring Break though Lisa Yeah. Tiffany Spring break that just turned into the next school year. But, you know, my husband too. We are essential so you know it's funny that we all had a different experience kind of, like, you know with music you know? I had a different case of circumstances so I always feel so jealous. I almost feel like jipped, you know? Like everybody else got the time to be a family and everybody else got the time to think about their businesses and, you know, poor me. Lisa Sure. Yeah. And I'll tell you when I share. We got to slow down and joy... like there's a part of me that feels bad because of those who are essential. Like I am so thankful for those that were essential and out there. And I do, I feel sad for y'all that didn't get to experience that slow down. Because when we got into that, that was when we were able to reflect and really like what are our priorities in life, you know? Someone had even posted something about "You know we're not all, we want these material things, we're all desiring, like relationships, seeing people like that is a top priority on a lot of people's lists" and that used to not be. You know? So you're like, I'm too busy with life. Like I just need my family. And so I just have enjoyed seeing that shift change in different lives around me. I still understand that there's those that didn't continue to experience but i'd love to...my friends in our life...those shift changes are amazing! Tiffany Yeah Lisa We all just need that every once and a while. Tiffany Yeah, I mean I don't want to say it because it's not popular opinion but I think a little COVID situation, once every five years, would be great. [Laughter] Lisa Maybe milder. Tiffany Yes, not not as severe or not as serious. Don't the European countries do something like that? Like Summer, they just kind of shut down? Lisa Right? I think so like a long little um, what do they call it over there? Not a vacation. Tiffany Ha Ha USA? [Laughter] Lisa Holiday, their holiday. Tiffany Again, the grass is always greener on the other side. I think they also have a different healthcare system. I think they also have a different taxing structure, you know, so.. Lisa Right Right Tiffany Who knows? Be happy with what you got, right? Lisa Amen, yes sister! Tiffany Well thank you so much for taking time out of your evening to speak with me and to share that song with me. Lisa Yes, well thanks so much for having me Tiffany! Outro Well that was a great walk down memory lane. I hope you enjoyed my guest's memories and experiences with the song or songs they chose. To connect with my guest's, I mean I know you are just going to stalk their social media, but check out the show notes as always for details. Please leave a 5 star review. And I'd love if you left a memory of your own that was sparked. Can't wait to dive into my next guest's memories with a beat. Hit subscribe now, you don't wanna miss the next episode.  

Ascorbic acid or vitamin C is a known antioxidant. Clinicians have conducted numerous studies to discover its role and effectiveness on life-threatening diseases such as sepsis, acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), cancer and COVID-19. Dr Alpha 'Berry' Fowler joins us in this episode to share his work on vitamin C and its role in improving the survival of critically ill patients. He also talks about ongoing trials on vitamin C and its possible benefits on COVID patients. If you want to know more about the research backing up the success of vitamin C in disease treatment, then this episode is for you.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn the mechanism of sepsis in lung disease. Discover the role of vitamin C in treating patients with sepsis and ARDS. Find out more about past and ongoing trials on vitamin C.   Resources Learn about Dr Fowler's Phase 1 safety trial of IV vitamin C in patients with severe sepsis. Explanation lecture of the CITRIS-ALI study by Dr Fowler JAMA publication on CITRIS-ALI Article on the sequential organ failure assessment (SOFA) scores and mortality of patients involved in the CITRIS-ALI trials Dr Paul Marik's protocol for sepsis using vitamin C and steroids   Episode Highlights [04:02] How Dr Fowler's Research on Bacterial Sepsis Began Dr Fowler started working on mouse models to investigate sepsis. A solution made from mouse pellets was injected into ten mice, five of which received a treatment of vitamin C. The septic mice in the control group all died while those treated with vitamin C were crawling around, drinking water and eating. Dr Fowler then started using animal models to determine how vitamin C treats sepsis. [09:05] How Sepsis Damages the Lungs In sepsis, the lung barrier is injured. The progression of sepsis traps activated neutrophils in the capillary space of the lungs. Activated neutrophils release their DNA and enzymes, damaging the capillaries. Plasma then fills the air spaces, causing the patient to drown in their fluid. [09:34] The Role of Vitamin C in a Septic Lung In vitamin C-treated mice, the lung’s barrier function is preserved. Vitamin C stops neutrophils from disgorging their DNA into the extracellular space. Free DNA has become a marker to predict mortality. Blood reanalysis showed vitamin C lowered free DNA circulation as a result. Vitamin C completely inhibits the expression and appearance of inflammatory proteins. [16:15] Phase 1 Safety Trial Outcomes In a randomised, blinded trial, 24 patients were enrolled to determine the safety of vitamin C. Organ failure score was tracked in all patients. The higher the score, the higher the incidence of mortality. Patients treated with vitamin C saw a dramatic and significant reduction in their organ failure score. Vitamin C also improved their chance of survival. Intermittent infusion of vitamin C every 6 hours could get the plasma level up to 3000 times the normal level. [25:47] Phase 2 Proof-of-Concept Trial Outcomes Patients enrolled in the study had septic ARDS. The vitamin C treatment resulted in no adverse event. After 96 hours, 19 of 83 placebo patients died while only 4 of 84 patients with vitamin C died. Upon follow-up after 28 days, 46% of placebo patients died while only 30% of treatment patients died. This was the first blinded trial to show vitamin C’s impact on the mortality of patients with ARDS. [28:17] Explaining the Inconsistency of the SOFA Score Jean-Louis Vincent created the SOFA score. Jean-Louis Vincent sent a letter to the editors of Dr Fowler's work that the data was incorrectly analysed. Reanalysis showed the patients who died had the top SOFA score. Vitamin C significantly impacted organ failure scores. Vitamin C treatment resulted in a significant number of ICU-free days, improved mortality and more hospital-free days at day 60. [36:05] Is There Another Trial Underway? The NIH tasked the Prevention and Early Treatment of Acute Lung Injury (PETAL) Network to turn towards COVID treatment.  Dr Fowler started a trial on vitamin C as a treatment for patients with early COVID pneumonia, and the results are dramatic. There is another trial for sepsis and vitamin C planned by the PETAL Network involving 1000 patients across 69 medical centres. [39:48] Why Larger Doses of Vitamin C Are Not Administered The primary concern for higher doses of vitamin C is the formation of renal stones. A safety trial is first recommended before vitamin C treatment for COVID pneumonia can begin.    7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘The cage that the mice got the sepsis and the vitamin C, they were all crawling around, drinking water and eating. And I knew at that point that we had stumbled on something pretty significant’. ‘One of the first things we found was that the lungs of the treated mice that were septic, they weren’t injured’. ‘Most people understand sepsis as being a bacterial infection, but they don't understand that it's actually taking all the organs and causing oxidative damage to multiple organs, not just the lungs’. ‘We had kind of a basic grasp on the immune system and how vitamin C could alter the septic immune response and how vitamin C could protect the lung’. ‘Vitamin C was actually improving the possibility of survival’. ‘The amount of vitamin C that you administer is critical. Dose matters’. ‘You’re going to save not only thousands and eventually more — hundreds and thousands of lives. You’re going to reduce hospital bills enormously’.   About Dr Fowler In his 35 years of service at VCU, Alpha A. ‘Berry’ Fowler, M.D., Professor of Medicine and Director, VCU Johnson Center for Critical Care and Pulmonary Research, has had a profound influence at VCU and beyond. Considering his robust grant support and over 300 publications and abstracts in clinical areas including adult respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) and sepsis, he might well be lauded for that alone.  Likewise, with over 16 years as Pulmonary Disease and Critical Care Medicine (PDCCM) Division Chair, with numerous ‘Top Doc’ awards and other honours, his pursuit of excellence in clinical care, impacting thousands of patients and their families, might well be the highlight of most careers.  To learn more about Dr Fowler’s research on vitamin C, you may contact him at 804-828-9071 or send a message to alpha.fowler@vcuhealth.org.    Enjoyed This Podcast? 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If you would like to work with Lisa one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries,  to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation with Lisa here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations Lisa's latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how a mother and daughter defied the odds after an aneurysm left Lisa’s mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74 and the medical professionals told her there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Lisa used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and to bring her mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For Lisa’s other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling her ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books. Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for Lisa and Neil’s online run training coaching. For their epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. For Lisa’s gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Hi everyone and welcome to Pushing the Limits. This week I have an exciting interview with intensive care medicine doctor, Dr Berry Fowler, who is an intensivist from the Virginia Commonwealth University. The director of the VCU unit via 35 years of service at the VCU Johnson Center for Critical Care and Pulmonary Research. And he's also the author of a number of studies around vitamin C. So today we're continuing that conversation that we've been having in the last few weeks around the importance of vitamin C. Last week, we had Professor Margreet Vissers on, from Otago University, talking about—who worked with vitamin C in cancer. She's been studying this for 20 years. And Dr Berry Fowler has been studying vitamin C in regards to sepsis and pneumonia and how to use it in COVID. And he's been researching in this area with vitamin C for over 15 years. So some really amazing insights into this incredible vitamin and how it can help with all of these things. So please don't miss this episode. If you enjoy the content, please share it with your family and friends. You know, there’s some important messages that we're wanting to get out in this vitamin C thing that I've been doing, because I lost my father recently and this would have been a major player and I was desperate to get him help with intravenous vitamin C, and I was unable to until way too late. And so I'm desperately wanting to get out the information about this research about the clinical studies that have been done, the research that's been done, to share this really important information.  As always, I really appreciate a rating or review for the show. If you can do that, that'd be so so appreciated. And if you've got any questions, please email me at support@lisa tamati.com, if you want to discuss anything that was brought up in these topics, in this podcast. I'm also doing some one on one consultations. I have a limited number of spaces available for people who are wanting to work with me one on one. If you are facing difficulties in areas from whether it be around some of your health aspects like head injuries, obviously I've spent five years researching head injuries. I have a lot of knowledge around vitamin C. I have a lot of knowledge around biohacking, around epigenetics trained as an epigenetics coach, gene testing, and so on. And I work with a very small number of people who are needing help with these areas. As well as of course run coaching and mindset in high performance. So if you're wanting to get some one on one support with me, please reach out to me it's lisa@lisatamati.com. And I can send you the information there. Right over to the show now with Dr Barry fellow who is sitting in Virginia in the USA. Well welcome everybody to Pushing the Limits. This week. I have a very special interview continuing our series around intravenous vitamin C or vitamin C in general. I have Dr Barry Fowler with me, who is sitting in Virginia and Dr Fowler has agreed to come and have a little chat today about his work in this area. Dr Fowler, I've done a wonderful extra introduction. So we won't go into all your amazing credentials and your achievements, of which there have been many. But Dr Fowler, can you just give us a little bit of background? You are the director of the VCU Virginia University over in the States. Can you tell us a little bit about your work and your background? Dr Berry Fowler: Okay, well, I am professor of medicine in the Division of Pulmonary Disease and Critical Care Medicine and I'm one of the ancient doctors in the division, just turning 71 last week. I trained at the Medical College of Georgia in the US, then went to the Medical College of Virginia in the US, then went to the University of Colorado for pulmonary and critical care disease training, and then came back and joined the faculty at Virginia Commonwealth University which used to be the Medical College of Virginia, it's now VCU, in 1982 and I've been here ever since. Lisa: Wow. Dr Berry: I rose slowly through the ranks. I led the pulmonary division for a number of years, for approximately 17 years, and then stepped aside in 2016. And all during this time, at least for 13 years now, we've had this interest in vitamin C. And it's interesting how our interest in vitamin C developed. It first started at a very molecular level where we were studying cardiac ischemia, but some of the heart attendings. And then slowly began to get back to what we have been doing for years which was bacterial sepsis. And we had some molecular reasons that drove us towards vitamin C. And so first thing we did was we created an animal model of sepsis. And let me explain that. It was pretty straightforward to create. We had 30 gram mice and we went to the mouse cage and collected mouse pellets. Then took them to the laboratory and sonicated them really hard until it became a solution. Lisa:  So this is the fecal matter. Yes. Dr Berry: And we would take that solution and centrifuge it really hard so that all the solid matter went to the bottom of the tube and we just took off the liquid from the top, which contained multiple different kinds of organisms. Lisa:  So all the bacteria. Yes. Dr Berry: Yes. And so we took that, put it in the refrigerator overnight and then came in the next morning. And we had 10 mice. We had 5 control mice and then 5 treatment mice. So all the mice first were injected into their peritoneal space, you mentioned that earlier, with a tenth of an mL of this solution containing all this bacteria. And so all 10 mice. And then in the mice that were going to receive the vitamin C, we injected a tenth of an mL, which was 200 micrograms per gram of bodyweight of the mice and then closed off the light. By that point, it was about 4:00 in the afternoon. And just let the mice sit in the laboratory where we had left them and I always get to work at 6:00 in the morning and I was thinking, ‘Holy cow, I got to see what's going on.’ And so I went into the lab where we had the mice and the cage that was the control mice that were septic. They were all dead. In the cage that the mice got the sepsis and the vitamin C, they were all crawling around drinking water and eating. Lisa:  Wow. Dr Berry: And I knew at that point that we had stumbled on something pretty significant. This take us back to around 2010. Maybe 2009. My laboratory has had this intense interest in sepsis ever since I finished my training at the University of Colorado. And so what we decided is that we would begin to use the treatment animals and some control animals to determine exactly how vitamin C was working. Lisa:  To look at the molecular, the mechanism of action. Why is this happening? Why are they surviving better? Dr Berry: So what we did was—in these studies, we were always comparing the control mice to the treated mice. And one of the first things we found was that the lungs of the treated mice that were septic, they weren't injured. Lisa:  Wow. Dr Berry: And we have a number of ways to determine the way a lung is injured. One of the things that happens in sepsis, and this might have been what you and I were talking about earlier, is the lungs barrier function, which is the ability to keep the blood in the blood and keep the air in the air. Lisa:  Yes. Dr Berry: It gets injured. And so the bloodstream floods into the airspaces of the lung. Lisa: And fills it. Dr Berry: Yes. And one of the things we discovered was lung barrier function was preserved and the vitamin C treated septic mice. Lisa: Wow. So you're perceiving that it’s stopping the plasma and the neutrophils getting into the alveolar space. Dr Berry: Exactly.  Lisa: And the NET— of one of your lectures, you talk about neutrophil extracellular traps (NET). Is that a part of the barrier function?  Dr: Berry: Very nice. When are you starting medical school? Lisa: Thank you, Dr Fowler. Dr Berry: So what happens as sepsis progresses is that there are a bunch of molecules that live in the capillaries of the lung that begin to get expressed. And what they do is they trap neutrophils that are activated in the capillary space of the lung. And one of the things that happens in a highly activated neutrophil is they disgorge their DNA and all of the enzyme systems inside a neutrophil begin to damage the capillaries. And then what happens as the capillaries get injured, the plasma from the lung, just a vein from the bloodstream, just flows into the lungs. Lisa: So you’re basically lost—it's like your skin barrier, if you like, between the ear and your insides is disintegrating. Dr Berry: Well, one injury from sepsis is like drowning. Lisa: Wow, so you fill it with your own fluid. Dr Berry: The airspaces of the lung fill up with your own plasma. Lisa: So when you have, cause sepsis—I don't think most people are not aware of the progression of sepsis to acute respiratory distress syndrome. That this is a sort of a linear progression that happens, isn't it? That you actually get lung—because most people understand sepsis as being a bacterial infection but they don't understand that it's actually taking all the organs and causing oxidative damage to multiple organs, not just the lungs, but particularly the lungs. And so this is a very important finding that what you've had here because this means that if you can stop the vitamin C, if the vitamin C can stop the neutrophils from disgorging their own DNA into the extracellular space, which is then, that's in a marker, isn't it? That cell-free DNA, when you take a plasma drawn and you see that cell-free DNA floating around at a certain level, that's a predictor of mortality, isn't it? Dr Berry: Listen, you've done some fabulous reading. But let me just tell you, it's been known for several years that in septic individuals, one of the unfortunate things that will predict mortality is how high the cell-free DNA arises in the circulation. And I don't want to jump too far here, but I will tell you and the vitamin C trial that we reported one year ago this month, that when we reanalyzed the blood from those individuals, we found that vitamin C dramatically lowered the cell-free DNA in the treated patients. Lisa: Wow. That was in the CITRIS-ALI study? Dr Berry: Exactly. Lisa: Oh, okay. That's a new finding from that study because, yes, we will go through that progression of how you got to do that study. So let's bookmark that for a moment and backtrack because that is a very important finding for that study. So let’s backtrack a little bit. So we are talking about vitamin C being able to protect the lungs if we put it very simply and protect the barrier function of the lungs, stop the neutrophils from disgorging the DNA and causing these traps, which is a predictor of mortality. What are other things is vitamin C doing? And why is a septic patient, without fail, going to be very low in vitamin C? So you’re using that for Vitamin C. Dr Berry: I'll get to that in a minute. But what we demonstrated in a huge number of murine mouse studies is that the septic lung in a control animal, the septic lung began to express many inflammatory proteins. And that's just your endogenous immune system trying to protect itself. But we showed in the next cage, in the septic mice that we had treated with Vitamin C, that the expression and the appearance of those inflammatory proteins was totally inhibited completely.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Berry: Yes. The idea of leaping from preclinical animal studies into humans was that we had kind of a basic grasp on the immune system and how Vitamin C could alter the septic immune response and how Vitamin C could protect the lung. Well, protecting the lung in terms of septic critical illness is very, very important. Lisa: Absolutely. And so then you went to a phase one safety trial, which was really to look at some basic markers. Is this going to be damaging for people if they get vitamin C and look at hypertension? And is it going to affect the kidneys and so on. I think some of those safety mechanisms. Can you tell us a little bit about that phase one safety trial and then the outcomes of that trial? Dr Berry: Well, I can tell you, I had this really close colleague. His office sat right next to mine. He's a molecular biologist, basic scientist. And after we'd done all these murine studies, one day he walked in, he looked at me, said, ‘Fowler, this needs to go into the hospital. We've developed all this data. You've got to make it happen to get it into the hospital’. We designed this little safety trial, enrolled 24 patients. The safety trial was randomized and it was blinded. And so half the trial was just controlled sepsis. The other half was septic patients treated with Vitamin C and we had no idea who the hell was giving vitamin C to people who were critically ill. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: And we found it had no impact. But one of the things we were shocked at, and we were just trying to define, was vitamin C safe?  Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: One of the things we tracked was what is called an Organ Failure Score. And we found that all of the patients treated with Vitamin C, their Organ Failure Score reduced dramatically and significantly. Lisa: Wow. Dr Berry: And the way Organ Failure Scores, basically you're counting numbers. A higher number is a higher incidence of mortality. Lower numbers are improved and that vitamin C was actually improving the possibility of survival. Lisa: So this is like, in my father's case, is the sepsis progressed and I was unable to get him Vitamin C as we discussed earlier, Dr Fowler, early enough for him to get to survive. But as I watched his sepsis progress, more and more organs started to fail. So his liver started to fail. His kidneys started to fail. His heart started to fail. And so this is the Organ Failure Score. If this person's Organ Failure Score is going up, that is a very strong predictor of mortality. Dr Berry: Yes. Lisa: Okay, so this was reduced with the people who received the Vitamin C in the small trial. Dr Berry: So what we did, we took the data, we combined it with our preclinical data, and applied to the National Heart Lung and Blood Institute. They had just published an announcement where they were asking for anybody who could think of some clever trial. And we said, ‘Well’. And so we submitted an application. What the NIH wanted, they wanted the proposal for a phase two, proof of concept trial. Lisa: Right. Dr Berry: And so what we proposed was a trial that had seven medical centers. I have friends in seven medical centers around the US. And with this application in and that was I guess you guys don't remember Hurricane Sandy. Lisa: Yes, I do. Dr Berry: Hurricane Sandy was just—it killed the Atlantic Coast of the US. And the National Heart Lung and Blood Institute happens to sit on the Atlantic Coast in Washington, D.C. And it was a year and a half before we found out that we had received the highest priority score because of the application that we had submitted. And the NIH gave us 3.2 million dollars to do a multicenter, randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled trial, proposing to administer 50 milligrams per kilogram of intravenous Vitamin C every six hours for ninety six hours. Patients were continuously receiving vitamin C. Lisa: Can you explain why that continuous topping up that level is important every six hours? Dr Berry: That's a great question. So from the safety trial that we had performed, we analyzed the plasma Vitamin C levels that we had achieved by infusing. So basically someone your size, for example, would probably get maybe 3 1/2 grams intravenously every six hours for ninety six hours. And what we showed was, we could get the plasma level up to basically three thousand times the normal plasma level. So from a normal diet, human plasma levels of vitamin C are about 70 to 80 micromolar. When you give the protocol that we had settled with, we got the Vitamin C levels up to five millimolar. Lisa: Wow. Dr Berry: Yes. And so that's what we were shooting for in this NIH trial. And that's what we did. We charged into it, the trial. What we had proposed again, was the Organ Failure Score as well as the two biomarkers. We also proposed in the secondary outcomes, days on mechanical ventilation. Lisa: Yes, which is hugely important. Dr Berry: And what we were studying specifically, was patients who were septic, who had gone on to develop acute lung injury called Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome, ARDS. And so when a patient was septic, like your father, we would become a fly on the wall and visit the patient every day until a lung injury developed. And that's when they would get randomized. Lisa: This was a critical—from my analysis of the data, that was a critical thing in the phase. So you had to wait until I basically had developed ARDS before you were able to put them. So this wasn't really a sepsis trial, but more of an ARDS trial. So the progression of the sickness comes into play here, doesn't it? If you’ve gone through day one, like in the phase... Dr Berry: In the safety trial... Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: The second aseptic individual walked in the door, that's when they got random. Lisa: Which is a much better, more effective with the timing. Dr Berry: We had a couple of patients who got Vitamin C in the emergency room. Lisa: Yes, wow.  Dr Berry: You know you have to get informed consent. You have to get the pharmacy on board and get the patient enthused. Lisa: I wish I'd had you tending to my father. We could have had that from the moment he got to the emergency. That would have been, I think we would have had a different outcome. But so this was a key point that you had to wait until I had developed ARDS. So in this CITRIS-ALI trial, so here you have, I think it was 47 patients in the control and 47 in the intervention group, was it right? Dr Berry: 83. And 84 in the Vitamin C treatment. Lisa: Oh, 83. I'm sorry. Sorry. So 167. One of the big questions I had in my— why was mortality not one of the primary objectives of the study? Dr Berry: That has been the most frequent question. When we answered the NIH, they had put out a program called, UM1, and we applied to the UM1 program and they were not interested in mortality as a primary outcome. Part of it was this. There had been hundreds of sepsis trials and nobody had ever shown any impact on a treatment for sepsis. And so NIH didn't want to get burned again so they said that they wanted a physiological outcome. That was the Organ Failure Score. And they wanted a biochemical outcome. Those were the biomarkers. Lisa: It's the C-reactive protein, procalcitonin and thrombomodulin. And yes. So the reasoning was that we don't want to shoot for the stars here and automatically hope for a decrease in mortality and a decrease of days in hospital. We're going to go for something else just to see if this has legs, so to speak, if this treatment is possible, possibly going to work. And that's why they went for the safer scores, rather than the mortality. Looking back, do you think... Dr Berry: By the way, we haven't talked about this yet, but SOFA stand for Sequential Organ Failure Assessment Score. Lisa: Thank you. Yes, it's amazing the jargon that you pick up and then forget that you haven't explained yourself. So what actually was the outcome? This was a seven multicenter trial. You did a double blinded. This was incredibly important because I know Dr Paul Marik had also done a study with intravenous Vitamin C, thiamine, and hydrocortisone. And one of the criticisms that was thrown at him was that it wasn’t a double blind, randomized controlled trial, so it didn't have any meaning, which is absolutely tragic. So this was—what was the outcomes of this phase two trial? Dr Berry: So we enrolled 170 patients. One of the placebo patients we had to take out because that patient did not have septic ARDS. They had Acute Eosinophilic Pneumonia. That's something else to discuss later. And then in the Vitamin C arm, we had two patients with Acute Leukemia who had no coagulation in their bloodstream and they were hemorrhaging into their lung and that was not sepsis. So as I mentioned, we had 83 in the control placebo and 84 in the vitamin C-treated group. First of all, we saw no, and I emphasize capital N-O, adverse events. There was not a single adverse event.  Lisa: Exactly. Dr Berry: All right. And so what we showed was in 96 hours, placebo patients in the trial, 19 of 83 died within 96 hours. Lisa: Wow. Dr Berry: In the Vitamin C group, 4 of 84 patients died. And if you look at the statistics and the analysis of that, the difference is P=0.0007. We then followed the patients out because in sepsis trials, there's always this demand to see what is happening to a patient at 28 days. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: And what we showed was 46% of placebo patients died and only 30% of the Vitamin C treated septic patients with ARDS died. Lisa: Wow, that's a huge result in my mind. Dr Berry: And that was the first trial. I'm not slapping myself on the back, but I will just tell you, that was the first trial to ever show in a blinded fashion, an impact on ARDS.  Lisa: Yes. On mortality of ARDS. Dr Berry: Yes. Lisa: And this was extremely sick people. Now, unfortunately, the SOFA scores didn't show any difference and the C-reactive protein markers didn't show any difference. Dr Berry: So let me explain. Lisa: Is it because... Yes, is it because of the mortality. Dr Berry: So we thought publishing the results of the trial in probably one of the most important journals on the planet, JAMA, which as it turns out, is a very, very conservative journal. And they had their ideas about what we could and we couldn't say. So we published, and this is very important for you to listen to and all of your listeners, we published that there was no difference in the SOFA scores at 96 hours. And immediately, letters to the editor started coming in and one of the most important letters to the editor was the person who created the SOFA score. His name is Jean-Louis Vincent in Brussels, Belgium. He told us that we had analyzed the data incorrectly and that what we were reporting was a survivorship bias. Lisa: What does that mean? Dr Berry: And what he said we needed to do, and he provided five publications where he had important statisticians tell him that analyzing the data, like we reported, as a worst rank, best rank scenario, that we had to reanalyze it so that the patients who died, what we were reporting was the SOFA scores on the people who had survived. Lisa: Not the ones who died. Dr Berry: We had not considered the SOFA score on the patients who died. Lisa: And because they died so quickly. Dr Berry: So what we did was we went back and the people who died along the way, those 19 patients, they got the top SOFA score. The patients who survived and left the unit, they got a low SOFA score. And so when we reanalyzed the data, according to the way these letters that had come in from Dr Vincent and two or three other colleagues, it turns out that Vitamin C significantly impacted the Organ Failure Score. Lisa: Wow.  Dr Berry: And then we—here's the important thing, we reported that February 25th of 2020. So you can go to JAMA, you can look it up and you can see our response to the SOFA score reanalysis. Lisa: Because this was a key factor in my father's case. They threw the CITRIS-ALI trial at me and the original data from JAMA, which said negative result, which when I analyzed... Dr Berry: That lets you know that the doctors were not reading JAMA. Lisa: Exactly. And they weren't on the up to date and they did not look at secondary outcomes and they did not look at the parameters of the score and I was not able to present the case. They had just read it briefly. Dr Berry: Let me go on. We had a strong trend to ventilator-free days and the people who got the Vitamin C, but it just missed statistical significance. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: But we had a strong significance for the people who got Vitamin C in Intensive Care Unit-free days. Lisa: Which is huge. Dr Berry: So the people who got Vitamin C had a significantly higher number of ICU-free days. There was an improved mortality. The other thing is patients who got Vitamin C had significantly more hospital-free days at day 60. Lisa: Wow. So they were actually out of the system altogether. Do you think—now this is controversial, I'm playing devil's advocate here. But do you think the fact that it costs so much for someone to be in ICU when they have sepsis—I think in America it's something like, to the order of 60,000 dollars US a day—and the medications that they are typically on are costing around 20,000 dollars a day, do you think that if you come along with Vitamin C and you start dropping the mortality rate, you start dropping the days? Is that part of the resistance to accept and acknowledge these findings, that the pharmaceutical companies are going to lose out on profit? Dr Berry: Oh no no no. No, no, no. At VCU, Virginia Commonwealth University—that Anitra knows well—the average care cost per day is about 46,000 per day because that accounts for medical care, nursing care, radiology, all laboratory data, respiratory care, caring for the ventilator. All of that is somewhere in the neighborhood of about 45 to 50,000 dollars per day. And so, if you have a treatment, first of all, that gets people out of the ICU earlier and keeps them out of the hospital, think about the impact on the cost of care. Lisa: Yes, it’d be huge. Dr Berry: But here's the other thing. There's not going to be any drug company out there who would argue with that. They are all trying to do the best they can with their different antibiotics, but the common antibiotics that are administered in an ICU when patients are septic levofloxacin, meropenem, vancomycin. Just one day of meropenem is 1500 per day. Lisa: Exactly. It's a lot of money.  Dr Berry: Yes.  Lisa: So you don't think that... Dr Berry: And listen to this. That's the cost of the drug. That's not the cost of pharmacy preparing the drug, cost of nursing administering the drug and so on and so on and so on.  Lisa: Okay, so all right. So if you can work this problem out and if you can get this in all ICUs around the world, we're going to save not only thousands and eventually more hundreds of thousands of lives, you're going to reduce the hospital bills enormously. So this is incredibly important work. And you've proven—so the statisticians proved in that phase two trial that the way that you are measuring it was incorrect because a lot of people, as you said, 19 died in those first four days in the control group and only four, so that skewed—if you like—the statistics to initially look like we hadn't had a win here. Now, that's been rescinded and you've managed to get JAMA to publish it in a different light, that the SOFA score was impacted. What has been the effect now? Have you got another trial underway or have you got one in sight? Because this work’s too important, obviously, not to be taken further into a phase three. Dr Berry: All right, so you are in New Zealand where there's not much COVID.  Lisa: No. Dr Berry: We are in the United States, where it's a pandemic, where we are close to 220,000 people who have died from the virus. We are at 50,000 new cases per day. Lisa: Oh my God. It's so...  Dr Berry: And there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,800 to 2,000 patients dying per day of COVID. And so because of that, the network that I'm part of, that unfortunately—I'm going to have to jump off and listen to it, because it's been going on since 2:00, the annual meeting of the Prevention and Early Treatment of Acute Lung Injury Network, abbreviated P-E-T-A-L, the PETAL Network. The PETAL Network was tasked by the NIH to turn sharply towards COVID treatments. Lisa: Yes. That makes sense. Dr Berry: And so we were thinking, ‘Well, maybe vitamin C to treat patients with early COVID pneumonia’. And so what we did was we started a trial. We have studied 20 patients now and that trial is complete, where patients who develop COVID infection and develop early COVID pneumonia, so it's just at the start of an oxygen requirement, are treated with Vitamin C and the results have been pretty dramatic. We are in the midst of writing that up. But again, it's a—open label trial. It's not blinded. Everybody in the world knows that an open label trial does not have the power like we did with CITRIS-ALI. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: And so what is happening at a world level is that all of the health organizations around the world have come to bear to try to design treatments for COVID pneumonia. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: And that is ongoing right now. And there are like 9 or 10 major networks in, across the world. Probably, I'm not sure if New Zealand is included in that, but Europe, the US, possibly Australia. I don't know if they commit to participating in what is called the network of networks formation. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: So right now, the next trial for patients with sepsis that's not COVID is going to be conducted by the PETAL Network where we will be probably next April, starting a trial with a thousand patients. Lisa: Wow.  Dr Berry: Using vitamin C conducted by the PETAL Network. Lisa: Gotcha. Dr Berry: And the PETAL Network has 69 medical centers. So doing a trial that would get a thousand patients can be done within a year. Lisa: Wow. So this is exciting stuff because this is hopefully you'll be able to reproduce and show a strong correlation between intravenous vitamin C and I'd like to see the decrease in the mortality rate. That would be a key factor. Some centers are already using vitamin C because as you mentioned before, there were no adverse reactions. And this is like in all of the studies that I've seen there has never— this is a low risk intervention and my argument when fighting for my father was that, ‘He's dying. There is no other options. Why can't I throw the bus in? Why can't I put intravenous Vitamin C’? And they were like, ‘You still have to go through all the ethics committees’. I had to sign off from every single doctor and every single nurse in the ICU unit of which there are many. Dr Berry: Well, let me make another statement. So Paul Marik, who was using 1.5 grams of Vitamin C, 200 milligrams of thiamine and 50 milligrams of hydrocortisone, administered every six hours. That meant that the patients were only getting 7 grams. Lisa: Very small amount. Dr Berry: In the CITRIS-ALI, I mean, some patients got 16 to 18 or 20 grams. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: According to body weights, 50 milligrams per kilogram. In the aftermath of that article that you mentioned that Marik published, there have been efforts to repeat that trial. The vitamins trial came out in January, using that and it failed. Then another trial, the ACTS trial using the Marik protocol failed. And then a trial that I just participated in called the VICTAS trial completely failed. And so the Marik protocol is not an effective treatment for sepsis. And well, look. As I think Anitra Carr mentioned to me a couple of years back, the amount of vitamin C that you administer is critical. Lisa: Absolutely. Dr Berry: So dose matters. And the adult, again, of your size, you probably weigh 120 pounds or something would probably get somewhere in the neighborhood of about 12 and a half to 13 grams, spread out over a 24-hour period. And then you would get it for four days. Lisa: Yes. And that is still a relatively low dose. Dr Berry: It is. Lisa: When I'm doing intravenous vitamin C with my mum, I did it with my dad prior and unfortunately, months prior to his aneurysm. Too little, too late. We were getting 30 grams. We get 30 grams a week. When I take my mum and niece today for an intravenous Vitamin C is a prophylactic as I try to keep her, as a 79 year old healthy, 30 grams. So why—I had this question certainly with Dr Marik’s protocol. It seemed to me to be very low, although the six hourly is obviously a very important point as well. Why not do the bigger dosages? Like in Japan, I know they did a study with up to a hundred grams of Vitamin C in a burns case, a burns trial, where they had some markers of sepsis there. Why are you not trying higher levels? Dr Berry: Let me come in here quick? Because I'm going to have to jump off in about 8 minutes. But listen to this. The major concern for those high doses of vitamin C, and if you talk to the oncologists who have been using it for years, they will give, like you said, they will give massive doses. And I'm talking massive, like in somebody with pancreatic cancer, they will get 60 to 80 grams intravenously, Monday, Wednesday and Friday for seven weeks. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: But the major concern, in somebody who's septic, who's hypotensive, in shock, that you're giving vitamin C, one of the major concerns is that it causes a significant rise in oxalate crystals formatiion in the kidneys. Now, I will mention here in the CITRIS trial, we had no evidence of renal stone formation. Lisa: No. And I mean, that was one of the arguments that the doctors had at me, ‘You could have damaged his kidneys’. And I said, ‘Well, the last time I looked, being dead damages your kidneys too’. To me, that wasn't even a consideration. And he had—after the very first vitamin C, and for my dad, his kidney function went from 27 percent to 33 percent. He's actually improved his kidney function overnight. And I know that's just one anecdotal case, but kidney stones are not going to kill you either. So surely that's not the most important consideration here when you've got a septic patient who is on death's doorstep. Dr Berry: With vitamin C struggling in the United States after the CITRIS trial, the Federal Food and Drug Administration, they always have to be concerned about adverse events. And we have put together a trial randomized and double blind using Vitamin C in patients with COVID-pneumonia. That's about to start. Lisa: Wonderful. Dr Berry: And we had, I unfortunately let my IND, Investigational New Drug lapse after CITRIS. And so I've had to claw our way back into the good graces of the FDA. And one of their major, major, major complaints was, ‘You're going to be forming renal stones’. And we're using the same protocol that we used in CITRIS. So FDA got their nephrologists involved and finally gave us the IND. But for us to begin treatment of COVID pneumonia, they have demanded that we first do a small safety trial to show that we are not causing any renal stone formation. We can get that done. We currently have somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 to 70 COVID patients in the MCV hospitals right now. Lisa: Wow. Well, Dr Fowler, look, I know I'd love to spend another five hours with you discussing all this because I think it's incredibly important, both for COVID and for the sepsis and for pneumonia and for obviously, for cancer. I just want to thank you for your dedication to this. I mean, you could be in retirement and sunning yourself somewhere, relaxing, but, you know... Dr Berry: That's right. Lisa: You know that this work is critically important. And I heard one of your lectures is the equivalent of two 747 planes going down every day filled with people. Dr Berry: Every day in the United States. Lisa: In the United States alone. Dr Berry: That’s just in the U.S. Lisa: Yes. And these people, thousands of families being destroyed with losing loved ones. I'm one of those, unfortunately, sitting here all the way in New Zealand. And so this work is incredibly important. So please keep going. And I'm desperate to hear what comes from this COVID clinical trials and the other sepsis trials, obviously. So thank you so much for your work, Dr Fowler, and I really appreciate you. Dr Berry: It's been wonderful meeting you and speaking with you, and your and your audience. And when you have Anitra on a couple of weeks, give her my regards. Lisa: I will definitely do that, Dr Fowler. That's been awesome. Thank you, Dr Fowler. And all the very best there in Virginia. Dr Berry: Take care. Bye. That’s it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review and share with your friends, and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.  

You and Me Forever (Part 1) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 2) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 3) - Francis and Lisa ChanFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Marriage for God's Glory Guests:                      Francis and Lisa Chan        From the series:       You and Me Forever (Day 2 of 3)  Bob: It was after a trip to Africa that Francis Chan came back to his home in the United States and told his wife he thought God wanted their family to downsize. Lisa wasn't so sure.  Lisa: I didn't want to give up my things. I didn't want to move into a smaller home. It was like this ripping that was happening. Of course, because God is so faithful—and every time, He says, “If you lose your life for My sake, you will find it,”—on the flip side is when I got to see the joy of it and, eventually, got to go to Africa with Francis. I was just brokenhearted at my own resistance and sinfulness because I wished I could have had those feelings [of joy] on the outset.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, January 23rd. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine.  1:00 Lisa Chan says that God's Word is true when it says, “Whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” That's true, even in marriage. We'll talk more about that today with Francis and Lisa Chan. Stay with us.   And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. We've been hearing, both last week and again this week, from a lot of our listeners who are getting in touch with us about the special offer that expires this week on our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways. For those of you who are new listeners to FamilyLife Today, the Weekend to Remember is the two-and-a-half-day getaway we do for couples in cities all across the country. It's a great romantic time away together, where you learn what the Bible teaches about God's design for marriage.  If you sign up for one of these getaways before the end of the week, you will save 50 percent off the regular registration fee as a FamilyLife Today listener.  2:00 We are encouraging you to get more information—go to FamilyLifeToday.com—find out when a getaway is going to be in a city near where you live and then block out that weekend, and call and register now to save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. The number to call is 1-800-FL-TODAY. You can also register online at FamilyLifeToday.com. I know some of these getaways are starting to get close to selling out, so don't hesitate. Join us at an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway, and register this week to save 50 percent off the regular registration fee.  Now, I've got to be honest—I'm not sure I want to talk to the couple we have joining us today, because they just shared with us they've had like 12 fights in the past 21 years. I'm kind of like, “Bring me some couples I can relate to a little more”; you know? [Laughter] 3:00 Dennis: Well, I was thinking: “We've been married double that. We've got more than 24, though,”—[Laughter]—doubling your dozen that you've had. Francis and Lisa Chan join us on FamilyLife Today. Welcome back.  Francis: Thank you.  Lisa: Thank you.  Dennis: They've written a book called You and Me Forever. In case there is a listener who doesn't know who this couple is—they live in the Bay Area of Northern California. They are about church planting there—also, ministering to men / I assume it's only men coming out of prison.  Francis: Yes; we've been trying to start a women's home as well. So, right now, it's just the guys coming out of prison.  Dennis: I want to go to something you mention in your book. You made this statement—you said, “If you could manuscript your prayers of what you've prayed about for the last month, what would they reveal about you, as a couple?”   Francis: So, it's like what David says in Psalm 27, verse 4, when he says, “This one thing I ask of the Lord and that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord and to inquire in His temple.”   4:00 That was his one prayer request: “God, I want You—I want You. I want to see You. I want to be with You.”   So, the question is: “Give me a manuscript of your prayers for the last month. I want to hear: ‘What do you hunger for? What do you want?' You're coming before the Creator, the Sovereign One, who is in control of this whole earth; and what are you asking for?”   Dennis: Yes.  Bob: And most of us are asking for: “Fix this,”— Francis: Yes.  Bob: —“Make life easier or better— Francis: Yes.  Bob: —“for me”; right?   Francis: Amen!  Bob: So, if that's—I mean, is it illegitimate for us to pray— Francis: No.  Bob: —“I'd like things to go better in my life”?   Francis: No; you know, it's—the Lord tells us to bring what we desire before Him; but also, the things that we desire reveal a lot about us; you know?  It opens our eyes to: “Wow! That's what I'm about?—is: ‘Get rid of all my problems,'”—because I don't see that in Scripture. It's more about, “God, give me the strength to make it through this—develop my character through these trials.”  You know, that's what I see in Scripture.  5:00 Lisa: How much of my prayers do I pray for Francis?  Do I pray for his walk with God?  Do I pray that God would help in his moments of temptation?  I mean, that's something that has developed in my life that softens my heart towards him—helps me to love him better. I want to be praying for him because who else is going to pray for him the way that I will?   Dennis: One of the things that I try to do, when I pray over my meal at lunch—I don't do it every time—but I try to pray for my wife Barbara and her walk—that she'll see God show up in her life, and she'll respond to Him, and she will grow in her faith. Then, if I'm having lunch with another guy, pray for his wife as well.  I don't think a lot of us are challenging one another with that concept, Francis—that you speak of in your book—of really making sure your prayers are about the agenda of what God's up to; because He is at work in your spouse's life, in your children, and in your extended family as well.  6:00 Francis: I just recently started running; you know?  I was getting out of shape; and so, I've been running around this track at my daughter's school. Every lap, I'll pray for a different kid. So, it's nice to have seven kids and a wife. [Laughter] It's, at least, two miles a day that I'm running, which is good. As I'm praying, the prayers aren't: “Oh, help us get along better,” or “Help this,” “Help that.”  It's like: “God, make my wife just this amazing warrior for you. Give her even greater love / greater capacity.” “Help my daughter, as she's in this school right now, to take a stand for you. It's about Your kingdom.” “Use them to influence other people—my kids in grade school / my kid in Little League—have him influence this team.” It's about God: “Your kingdom—Your kingdom come.”   Dennis: Lisa, tell the truth. When he starts praying like that— Lisa: Does it scare me?  [Laughter]   Dennis: —do you get scared?   Lisa: No; you know, my immediate thought was: “I'm so glad he's praying for me! I need it.”  That is, honestly, my first thought. [Laughter]   7:00 Bob: I want to go back—because you said your dad said, “No,” the first two times to Francis— Lisa: They are going to feel so bad about that. [Laughter]   Bob: But, as a daddy, I understand wanting to protect— Dennis: Oh, yes!   Bob: —my daughter— Dennis: Absolutely!  Bob: —and along comes Francis, who—as you said—they weren't sure if he was crazy about God or just crazy. And your journey together has been a journey of risk and a journey of faith; that, honestly, I can understand a daddy going, “This may be more risk than I raised my little girl for.” Do you know what I'm talking about?   Lisa: Yes; and I've seen that tension in them. There have been times when I've just had to cry and be honest with them, like, “I need you to support me and say, ‘You are never going to regret surrendering to God and giving things up.'”  That's hard when you have that parent's heart that immediately wants to protect. I have it, too, with all of my kids.  8:00 So, I do get it in a different way now; but how much I want to encourage parents to be that voice of courage for their kids—married or not; married 20 years / 30 years—still be that voice that says: “Honey, go for it! Don't look back. Surrender it all to God, because He's got you.” Bob: But there have to have been times when crazy Francis came to you and said, “I think the Lord is saying this,” and your immediate answer wasn't, “Yes, let's go for that,”— where you had to kind of go:  Lisa: Oh, yes.  Bob: —“Really?  There is a cost here.”   Lisa: One of the hardest—the first most difficult was when he had come back from Africa. I had not been with him on that trip. God completely wrecked him. He wanted to sell our home and cut our house size from 2,000 square foot to 1,000 square foot—it was, literally, right in half.  9:00 We had two kids. We had a couple of people living with us—we always have—but he wanted to move. He was like: “I can't do this anymore. I need to give something up in order to love these kids that I saw.”   It was love-motivated, which was so awesome; but I was so honest with him—I said, “I wasn't with you. I don't feel love in my heart; I feel more like, this is going to stink!” [Laughter] No; I mean, I'm just being honest. I didn't want to give up my things. I didn't want to move into a smaller home. It was like this ripping that was happening. Of course, because God is so faithful—and every time He says, “If you lose your life for My sake, you will find it,”—on the flip side is when I got to see the joy of it and eventually got to go to Africa with Francis. I was just brokenhearted at my own resistance and sinfulness because I wished I could have had those feelings [of joy] on the outset.  Bob: Your immediate reaction was, “I don't know.”  10:00  Lisa: It was: “I don't want to, but I will do what is in your heart. I will not stand in the way of what you want to do.”  And so—   Bob: And were you still—on the day you were moving into a 1,000 square-foot house, were you going: “I don't want to do this,” or had—by that time, had you started to go, “Okay; I guess this is going to be okay,” or what?   Dennis: Or did you negotiate a 1,500 square-foot home?  [Laughter]   Lisa: No, it was 1,000; and it was hard. I think the initial reaction was the hardest. Then, it was, “Swallow it.”  Then, it was, “This is going to be fine.”  Then, it was: “Why am I so stupid?  This has been the best thing.”  It was one of our favorite homes. We had the best neighbors that we reached out to and just loved. It was the tiniest, little thing. We had six of us, eventually, there. We had two more kids there; and then, we had two girls living with us. We moved up to eight living in that little, tiny house.  11:00 Dennis: Francis, if I've learned anything in the years I've been married, in order for our wives to have that kind of response, you have to have loved her with a love that results in respect and the ability to trust—when her heart isn't quite yet in it—but she knows she's got to go with you because she's committed to you and she's committed to the mission. Talk about your love for Lisa and how you have built that kind of trust.  Francis: I think, not to over-spiritualize it, but I do really believe that one of the things I've been able to help Lisa with is to trust in the Lord. So, when it came to a bigger decision—like the house—she had seen God's faithfulness in the past, and I think that's where the trust was. She was trusting that I was following the Lord and that the Lord was going to bless our steps, as long as we just keep going, and even sacrificing/denying ourselves during those times we didn't feel like it.  12:00 At the same time, we had been around the world. They would find us, even right now, having this conversation—about a 1,000 square-foot home, with toilets and air-conditioning—just absolutely laughable!  Dennis: —that that's a sacrifice.  Francis: Exactly!—because this is their dream house. So, I don't want to sit here and go, “Oh, you guys, we really suffered.”  It's like: “Man, that's luxury. We're living in America.”   Lisa: That's why it wasn't until after I had been with him into some of those areas of extreme poverty that I did feel so stupid for complaining and thinking that I was sacrificing so much. I said, “Oh, I would have sacrificed more.”  I said, “We could live in a tent,”—although that would probably be really hard—[Laughter]—but—   Dennis: You kind of looked at him— Bob: “Don't plant any ideas!”  [Laughter] Dennis: Well, that's what she was thinking—she was going: “Oh, no! We're going to downsize from 1,000 square feet.”   Francis: And that's crossed my mind—that's happened—the tent. Laughter]   Dennis: Francis, let's talk about how you are the spiritual lover and leader of Lisa and your family.  13:00 You've got a lot going on in your life out there: “How do you love Lisa? How do you provide the kind of mandate that Ephesians 5 talks about—‘Husbands, love you wives as Christ loved the church'?” Francis: It's something the Lord put in me. It's weird because I didn't really have that, growing up; and yet, it's so natural to me. It's not like I have to force myself to love my kids, and to enjoy them, or force myself to spend time with Lisa. I am gone a lot, but all the kids know I want to be at home with them. A lot of times, I will take them with me on some of my speaking engagements—I'll take one kid at a time.  So, I do serve kids—you know, my kids— through relationship, through just laughing with them, and teaching them, and disciplining them, and getting the time with them. A lot of times, we're just in ministry together.  14:00 Dennis: Lisa, we'll let you answer the question too: “How does he love you?”   Lisa: Well,— Dennis: And again— Lisa: —practically speaking,— Dennis: —not in an idealistic way—yes; in a practical way.  Lisa: Yes; one of the nicest things—that every mother will appreciate—is those nights, when he'll see that I have been in the home / I have had the little people all over me—and the big ones, sometimes, that have the emotional needs that go far beyond your little ones—and he'll just say: “Honey, I got this. You just go to Target—[Laughter]—just walk around Target, aimlessly, with a Diet Coke in your hand.”  [Laughter]  That is such a blessing. He knows when I need a little moment to myself; and he knows those times when he'll say: “Hey, we've got our high schoolers still at home. They are going to watch the little ones. You and I are going to go grab dessert really quick.”  That is how he shows love—it is to sneak a little time away / grab some dessert or just to let me go have a moment to myself.  15:00 Bob: As I hear you guys describe your marriage and how this works out for you, I hear a strong sense of mutuality; but I also hear there's leadership, and there's responding to leadership. You know, there is tension, even among Christians today, about: “What's this supposed to look like? How are we supposed to do this? Is the man supposed to lead? Is the wife supposed to submit?”  Unpack how you think that's supposed to work and why we are confused about it today.  Francis: I think we're confused about it because we've rarely seen a good picture of it. We live in a culture that's very anti-authority—because when have you found godly serving authority; okay?  Yet, that's a picture of God. It gets to the point where we even question God's authority, like, “He has no right to give me these rules.”  We forget that, no, those rules were to protect you / they were to give you life.  16:00 He is a wonderful authority!  I mean, that's the whole rebellion of Adam and Eve. It's like: “Well, did He really say?  That sure does look good.”  It's like: “No! You're going to ruin everything!”   Authority can be beautiful. Jesus, who knew who He was—He understood He was the Lord—yet, He goes and He washes the disciples' feet—He dies on the cross for them. That's our picture of authority. That's what the head of the home is supposed to do. If you had that, then, I believe you would see a lot more women, going: “Okay; I see that. I see how it can be good to be under their authority.”  So, I see, in Scripture—it is pretty clear to me that the man is supposed to be the head of the home, but he's supposed to lead in a way that's like a servant that is Christ-like.  Dennis: When a man serves, denies himself, loves, leads, and really takes care of his wife, it makes her responsibility and her response reasonable.  17:00 And Lisa, in the book, I so enjoy what you write on Page 88 because you talk about five reasons why—what has become a very nasty word in our culture / a politically-incorrect word—the word, “submission,”—but it's a biblical term. You talk about why we should do that. I want you to share that with our listeners, because there is probably a listener or two who is losing heart in well-doing and needs to be reminded why it's so important.  Lisa: You know, it was hard when we were writing the book; because we could write a whole giant book about submission and authority—right?—and leadership, but we didn't want that to be the focus of the book. But it is important to understand, for a woman—especially because so many women will say: “My husband doesn't deserve to be submitted to. He is not a good leader. He is not following the Lord.” We're not submitting to our husband's perfection and the fact that they deserve it. We're submitting to the fact that God has given them that position of authority. We're submitting to a God-given position and not perfection.  18:00 There were times, even in the beginning, when Francis was not kind and nice about his authority and leadership; but I am still responsible, before God, to say: “You know what?  He has given him this position.”  You can't get around it through Scripture. It's not one place that says, “Wives, submit to your husbands,”—it's a few times—look it up in your concordance. We can't be so afraid of obeying the Lord—there is freedom in it.  The second thing is—only our submission to God should be absolute. We don't submit to our husbands if they ask us to sin, obviously. There is a limit, in that sense. We are all under the umbrella of God's authority. So, if our husband steps outside of that, then we are not to join him in that.  Bob: You don't follow him—you don't follow him there.  Lisa: Right. I think one of the most important things we have to realize is that we find ourselves thinking that we're fighting against our husbands; but ultimately, we're fighting against God.  19:00 That is not something we want to do—the Scripture says that God opposes the proud, but He gives grace to the humble.  It takes humility to follow someone's lead; but, you know, you look back at the very beginning—God said: “It's not good for the man to be alone. I am going to create a helpmate for him.”  Why can't we embrace the beauty of that and say: “Wow! I want to give my husband the benefit of my wisdom / my insight”? Then, after I've laid that all down—and I've shown him / I've shared my thoughts and my heart—to allow him to lead / to make the ultimate decision, knowing that I've poured my heart out to him and helped him understand my perspective. It may not always match up. We may not always agree, but give your husband that benefit. He needs you. You are his helpmate.  Dennis: Your belief in your husband is empowering and affirming to his leadership. I think—I'm looking at Francis, who is nodding his head—she has made you a better leader— Francis: Oh, yes! Dennis:—because she is a strong woman.  20:00 Francis: Absolutely! If you knew me before I met her, I am sure you would say: “Wow! That was a major transformation. There's no way he could pull off what he's doing without her.”   Bob: Knowing that she believes in you / respects you—that she'll follow you— Francis: Yes.  Bob: —that puts wind in your sails.  Francis: You see—because my parents were dead by the time I was in junior high—so I've never had support / I never had anyone believing in me. I didn't have a cheerleader—anyone in my corner. Yet, the Lord was enough. The Lord was absolutely enough—so, yes—amen and amen. But He created us in such a way that—now, when I finally had someone who believed in me—like another human being, who I knew was going to be by my side and support me, even when everyone else thought I was crazy—yet, she believed / she believed in me. I can't—I can't say enough.  21:00 Lisa: You know, one of the things I have to say is that the thought of coming before the Lord, at the end of my life, and having Him say: “Why did you prevent your husband from doing all these things I had planned for him?”—that is part of what scares me. I think we have to realize that, as women, we want to be life-givers and we want to put wind in their sails, as you put it. We don't want to stand in the way and limit them and limit what God is going to do through them. That is what should scare us.  Francis: This is what the book was about—eternity. You know, we have this wonderful family—full of laughter / everything else—but that's going to be over in a second. Just to put it bluntly—we're going to die any moment. Lisa or I will stand before God, Himself— Dennis: Right.  Francis: —and what are we going to care about?  So, if I love her, then, it's not just about this time here. I want to prepare her for that moment when she faces Him. In the same way—and yes, we are saved by grace— 22:00 —but I want her to know: “I accomplished the work You gave me to do, Father, while I was on that earth—during that brief, little vapor of a time. I did what You wanted me to do.”   I think that's true love—is when you are looking at someone—and not just thinking of the here and now, where I benefit. I think about the forever and ever and ever—“How are you going… / What's that existence going to be like?”—it's based upon how we live now.  Bob: Is that really your hand print on the cover?   Francis: No; my hand wouldn't have fit on the book. [Laughter] Bob: I was just looking at your hand, going,— Francis: I know!  Bob: —“You've got huge hands.”   Francis: I know; it's freaky/scary. [Laughter]   Bob: We do have copies of your book, You and Me Forever, in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order a copy, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY—You and Me Forever: Marriage in Light of Eternity by Francis and Lisa Chan. Again, find it online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-“F”' as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”   23:00 And don't forget—if you have any interest in—and I hope you do—in coming to one of our Weekend to Remember marriage getaways this spring / they're going to be in over 50 cities across the country—sign up this week and you save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. It's a special offer we're making for FamilyLife Today listeners that expires this weekend. If you have any questions about the getaway, call us or go online at FamilyLifeToday.com.  And can I just say?—for you to have a couple of days—where the two of you get away, and recalibrate, and refocus, and breathe a little fresh air into your marriage—that would be good for anybody. If it's been a while since you've done that, you ought to go ahead and make plans now to be at one of the getaways and save a little money in the process; okay? Sign up at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get registered for an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. If you want to buy a gift card for somebody to attend a getaway, those are available at 50 percent off the regular registration fee as well.  24:00 Get the details at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800- FL-TODAY and join us at an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about how marriage and ministry can coexist—how you can be in alignment, as husband and wife, in being involved in kingdom work. Our guests, Francis and Lisa Chan, will be back with us tomorrow. I hope you can be here as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife® of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright© 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

You and Me Forever (Part 1) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 2) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 3) - Francis and Lisa ChanFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Don't Waste Your Marriage Guests:                      Francis and Lisa Chan        From the series:       You and Me Forever (Day 3 of 3)  Bob: Francis and Lisa Chan had not been married long when they started to think that their marriage needed to have more of an outward focus rather than an inward focus.  Francis: And we started letting people in the home and having people actually live with us. Ministry was in-house, and our kids saw it. The kids saw the miracles in these peoples' lives and the life-change. Discipleship was happening 24 hours a day in our home. We were missional. We were praying and saying, “God, what do You want us to do with this house?”—like everything was with an open hand, but I think that's what so few couples do—is they don't say, “Lord, what do You want?”  Instead, they think, “What do we want, and how can I justify that biblically?”   Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, January 24th. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. God can do some amazing things in the lives of couples and families who start to realize that marriage is about more than just the two of you.  1:00 We'll talk to Francis and Lisa Chan about that today. Stay with us.  And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Before we dive right into what we're going to talk about today, we have just a couple days left in the special offer we're making to FamilyLife Today listeners. If you'd like to join us at one of our upcoming Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways coming to a city near where you live, you register before the end of the week and you'll save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. This is the last week we're making this offer—it's the best offer we make all year long. So, if you'd like to save some money and have a great getaway together, as a couple, this spring—we're going to be in more than 50 cities across the country this spring—plan to join us, and register now to take advantage of the special offer. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com—you can register online—or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to register or if you have any questions.  2:00 Block out a weekend where the two of you can just kind of tune into each other and tune everything else out for 48 hours. The FamilyLife® Weekend to Remember marriage getaway really is a great getaway weekend for couples, and we'd love to have you register this week so you can save some money. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to register.  Now, we have had Francis and Lisa Chan joining us this week. It's been fun to get a little dirt on this couple—you know—I mean, on their marriage.  Dennis: Well, on Francis. [Laughter] Francis— Bob: That's true. I don't know that we've gotten any dirt on Lisa.  Dennis: I don't think we've heard much on Lisa.  Lisa: Well, we don't have any more time. [Laughter]   Dennis: Welcome back to the broadcast.  Lisa: Thank you.  Dennis: Glad you're here.  Francis and Lisa Chan have written a book, You and Me Forever. It's all about marriage in light of eternity. In fact, you say something in your book, Francis, I want you just to comment on here.  3:00 You say that it's important to love Lisa in light of eternity. Explain to our listeners what you mean by that statement.  Francis: Yes; it's the same thing that the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15. He said, “If there is no resurrection from the dead, then, I am above all men most to be pitied,”—like: “I would live completely differently if there is no forever / if there is no eternity. Then, let's just enjoy—we'll just eat, drink, and] be merry. Let's just have a great little family / have a great time here on earth, and just think about us.”  But no—because there is a forever—now: “How do I love her in the greatest way?”   Dennis: —and because you are accountable to the God who made us. Francis: Yes; and made her for a reason!   Dennis: Right.  Francis: And He made this marriage for a reason—it was for Him. Everything was created by Him and for Him.  4:00 So, we—I mean, this is what differentiates / is supposed to differentiate us from the rest of the world—is that we're not living for this life. It's not about your best life right now. It's about: “No; I'm thinking about the future. I'm storing up treasure in heaven.”  Don't waste your time just building up and storing up treasures on earth, where someone is going to steal it, or it's going to fall apart, and you've got to insure it and everything else. Store up this treasure in heaven. Really believe that you are going to be rewarded a hundred times anything you sacrifice.  If I am thinking about Lisa's forever and her future, then, I'm going to live a lot differently right here.  Bob: Lisa, I had the opportunity, a number of years ago, to go to a group of friends. I said, “If you were going to share a passage from the Bible about marriage with a couple just getting started—and it couldn't be Ephesians 5, couldn't be 1 Peter 3, couldn't be Colossians 3—kind of the big ones that we all go to / couldn't go there—what passage would you share with them?”  5:00 And two guys that I asked the question to, independently, gave me the same verse. It was one that really surprised me. It was out of Psalm 34. They said, “I used this verse to propose to my wife.” It was the verse that says, “O, magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt His name together.” They said: “We wanted to start our marriage saying, ‘This is what we're getting married to do—to magnify the Lord together and exalt His name together.'  That's the mission. That's the purpose statement for our marriage.”   I thought to myself, “I want to go back and do it over—I want to propose with that verse in mind,” because I wasn't smart enough, when I got married, to have that at the center of what I was all about.  Lisa: Yes; you know, it's interesting because I just spoke, last week, for a group with young moms. I was reminding them: “You are more than a mother. You are more than a wife. You are a child of God. You are here for Him.”  6:00 And I know we are talking about marriage right now; but I was trying to get them to think outside of—even just in their everyday life: “You belong to God. You are here”—like it says in Ephesians 2:10, I think it is—“You are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, to do good works that He prepared in advance…”—right?   Well, afterward, one of the moms comes up and she just says: “You know, my husband and I—we both work fulltime. We are kind of stuck. We have these jobs, and this house, and these cars. We want to serve the Lord, but…”—but—you know? I'm thinking, “Wow!”   We were just talking about how we need to back things up and get people like that, who think beforehand, who—young people who will say: “You know what?  Our marriage is going to be about a mission. Our marriage is going to be about the fact that we are here for God. So, we are going to make different choices. We are going to set our life up in a way that gives us total freedom to do whatever God asks of us.”  7:00 And that is a message I long to get out to people who haven't done it yet—who aren't stuck right now.  Dennis: There are a lot of couples who are trapped.  Lisa: Yes.  Dennis: They are ensnared.  Lisa: Yes; and there is nothing worse than not being able to tell the Lord, “I will do anything or go anywhere for You.”  That should be true of each of us, scary as it is. I'm not saying it's not. I'm fearful sometimes of what the Lord will ask me to do; but I'm more afraid of not being able to do what He asks me to do. Who are we here for?!   Dennis: So, Lisa, as you and Francis started your marriage, how much on mission were you, at that point?  Did your marriage start with this agreement that you were going to be a part of the Great Commission / being a part of proclaiming Jesus Christ to a lost world?   Lisa: Yes; I think because it was almost unintentional in some ways. I don't think I personally was thinking about discipleship and really putting my mindset, intentionally, on, “How many women am I going to disciple and bring to the Lord?”  8:00 It was more—we jumped onto this mission that God had given us in starting the church.  I thank God for that because I think, in a way, for me, it inadvertently put me on a mission. Our marriage started out that way—and then, this growing sense of: “What we are here for, and why we are here” and the joy that came from, all of a sudden, we are pouring our lives out for these other people—loving them/discipling them. We were put in a position of leadership, and we needed to lead. So, it was so good for me—I'm so grateful for it—but the intentional mindset grew. It wasn't so much for me there, right in the beginning.  Dennis: Francis, what about you?   Francis: Because of my upbringing, and because my parents and everyone died at such a young age, I had more of an eternal focus. I just woke up, thinking: “Okay; this could be my last day. What am I going to do?”—you know.  9:00 “Let me do whatever the Lord wants me to do today.” It was my focus, and I was trying to bring Lisa, who had had a different upbringing—and again, no fault to her / no fault to her parents. I mean, that's the typical American church teaching—is: “This is all about you. Let us cater to your needs. What kind of programs do you want in the church?” You know, it's all about you.  So, it's just—it was trying to get us deeply into the Scriptures and say: “Now, what is this about?  Why are we still alive?  Why am I breathing right now?  Someone is letting me breathe right now, and I'm breathing for Him. I want to do everything for His glory.”  So, I did have some of that intensity in me from the onset, I think, from a young age because of what God let me experience.  Bob: Well, it's one thing for two people, who have that passion, individually, to get married. The blending of that together and making it “our passion together, as a couple,” as opposed to “my passion,” and “your passion,” and we share a supper table and a bed.  10:00 How have you merged mission together in marriage?   Lisa: I grew up—I wanted to be a singer—I sang in our church / I did some studio recordings. When we first—we'd been married a few months—I was approached with this production deal; right?  These guys were going to record me, produce me, [and] put me out there. I say that because my mission—if you want to call it that, or my dream, was: “I'm going to be a recording artist. I'm going to sing, and get to travel, and do this.”  And here was my husband, whom God had called to start a church. I felt the Lord very gently saying: “You need to lay that down, because I can't have you going in two separate directions. It makes no sense. Be on mission together. Don't have two separate things that you're doing—that's going to pull you apart.”   11:00 Bob: If you think—and I know this is—no one knows; but if you think / had you made the other choice—let's say you decided: “You know, let's just see where this goes. You do the church, and I'm going to do the recording thing. We'll…” What do you think might have happened? Lisa: I don't know what would have happened. I think what would have not happened is that we wouldn't have been so united by our purpose, and I would have missed out on God moving and working through the both of us, and I would have missed out on being able to be in this supporting role that actually ended up bringing me a lot more blessing than what this lime-light would have possibly given me.  I think, years later, as he would speak—and then there were times I would come up and follow his message with a song—and I remember just feeling the joy of: “Wow, Lord; You've let me still use my gift for You, but in the context of joining my husband in ministry rather than being down by myself, isolated on my own road.” 12:00 Dennis: Let's talk about, for a moment, just a person, who's slugging out life, as a couple. They are going, “You guys are talking about mission.”  How can they get started, Francis, to begin to share—and that's what I want them to catch—they'd be infected with a love for Christ, but also, being locked arm / locked step together, as a couple, defined around that purpose of the Great Commission?   Bob: And can they be on mission together if they are living in the suburbs and they've got two kids and—you know, kind of the ordinary life—or does being on mission mean: “No; you've got to abandon it all. Move somewhere else and live somewhere else in some other way”?   Dennis: Yes.  Francis: Yes—no. I mean, because we live in the city—and we did live in the suburbs, and I believe we were missional—but we—the idea is surrendering everything—like we've talked about—to say, “God, this is Your house.”  I mean, where do we see in Scripture that you are allowed to not show hospitality and say: “No; this is my home. No one else is allowed in it”?   13:00 I mean, but that's the mindset I had when we first got married, though; because I remember her even discipling a gal, you know, after 5 o'clock. I was like, “Don't ever have her in our house after five,”—you know, because I believed that whole lie—that this home is protected, and we need our own time.  Bob: “My castle”; right?   Francis: Exactly!   Bob: Yes; right.  Francis: And then, you start reading Scripture and go, “Where in the world would you get that?” And we started letting people in the home and having people actually live with us. Ministry was in-house, and our kids saw it. The kids saw the miracles in these peoples' lives and the life-change. Discipleship was happening 24 hours a day in our home. I mean, we were missional. We were praying and saying: “God, what do You want us to do with this house?  Do You want us to move into a bigger house so we can take more people in?  Do You want us to sell the house, move into a smaller one, and give the money away?”—like everything is with an open hand, but I think that's what so few couples do—is they don't say, “Lord, what do You want?”    14:00 Instead they think, “What do we want, and how can I justify that biblically?”   Bob: So, the starting place for being on mission is to say: “It's not about me. It's about Him. It's: ‘What do You want?'” But a lot of couples will say, “Well, but I don't know what He wants; because I prayed and said, ‘Lord, whatever You want…' and I haven't heard anything yet.”   Francis: Well, I would say, “Open the Book”—not our book; you know?  [Laughter]  Yes; open that one too. You know, in the Scriptures—I mean, there are so many things—this is where we are so messed up, as a church, here in America—you know, being hearers of the Word and doing . You know, we're waiting for this voice from the Lord.  Well, true religion is to care for the widows and orphans in their distress. Go adopt a kid! Why don't you just assume adoption unless the Lord screams from heaven: “No; stop! Don't do it!”  Shouldn't we assume—if this is true religion—then, everyone should adopt? I mean, I'm saying, “Why do we always defer to inaction?”  15:00 We just assume, “I'll do nothing until I hear a voice from heaven.”  No; just open the Bible. Obey a verse—actually do it. If there is a voice from heaven telling you: “No; no matter what you do, don't help that widow,”—then, stop—but we do this opposite.  Dennis: And there are a lot of— Bob: There is no voice from heaven, going to say, “Don't help that widow”; right?   Dennis: Exactly. What I want our listeners to hear—there are a lot of ways to go near the orphan. You can go to the foster care system. They are in desperate need of foster care families. And frankly, the church of Jesus Christ ought to be emptying out the foster care system of children, in state after state, around our country. I mean, you don't have to adopt—you can just provide a family. For some of these kids, it may be the only family in their lifetimes—they ever see what real love is all about.  Francis: Yes; that makes absolutely no sense to me that there are half a million foster kids that no one wants. How many millions of churches are there?  16:00 You know, it's like we've got over a million churches, and we have half a million foster kids. That makes zero sense. So, if every other church adopted one, we'd take care of it; but that's how pathetic it is right now.  Lisa: The most paralyzing thing, I think, for us, as believers, is fear. We're so afraid of what might happen: “Well, what about my kids?  What if I bring someone in [and] something happens to them?”  And I just want to encourage people that I'm just as afraid as you. In fact, I told God: “I do not want a teenage foster child. I believe that what's best for us, in our family, is to take someone that's younger.”   What does the Lord bring to us but a teenage foster child? She has been the most amazing blessing. And if I talk about it for too long, I'll end up crying on the air; but just—you know, we cringe to think of saying, “No,” to that and what would have happened— Dennis: Right.  Lisa: —in her life. [Emotion in voice] But I'm telling you, honestly, on the front side, I did not want to do that.  17:00 But there is so much blessing in taking a step of faith. So, take a step of faith—maybe, even if it is not as grand as taking in a foster child. But do something that takes some faith. Go knock on your neighbor's door. Bring them dinner to say: “I want to show some love to you. Do you need help?  Can I help mow your lawn?”  Do some step of faith—take some action.  Dennis: You just mentioned something there—and I appreciate, so much, your passion and tender heart about this because Barbara and I share that. We have gone near the needs of orphans repeatedly. When you get near the orphan, you find the heart of God; and it's a good thing because we are orphans too. Apart from the gospel—God adopting us into His family—we're spiritual orphans.  Here's the question for both of you, Lisa and Francis. I like to ask people: “What's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all your life?” Courage is not battlefield courage, necessarily—it's doing your duty in the face of fear.  18:00 It's the very thing you were talking about. So, what would you say is the most courageous thing you've ever done, Lisa?   Lisa: The most courageous thing you can do is say, “Yes,” to something God is asking you to do that you are afraid of. There have been so many times—I scramble to think of which one to share. I think about the time when we invited a man, who had been in prison for six years, and his family of three kids—his wife and three kids—to move in with us—to give them our master bedroom, to move upstairs with our kids, and share that bathroom with all of them. That took a little bit of courage, and it took dying to ourselves. It took saying, “You can have my bedroom and my bathroom,”—which was, in one sense, so stupid and dumb but felt hard—and letting go of fear / letting go of fear—that's the most courageous thing to do.  If you are a scaredy-cat, like me, you have to preach the truth to yourself.  19:00 You have to preach verses like 2 Timothy 1:7: “For God gave us a spirit, not of fear, but of power and love and self-control.” I have to say the truth of God's Word to myself, all the time, because I will limit myself. I will refuse to say, “Yes,” to God and will be consumed with anxiety and fear in all these situations. But: “No; that is not from God. He gave us, not a spirit of fear, but of power, and love, and self-control.” So, choose to say, “Yes,” to God and to love someone.  Dennis: Alright; Francis, what is your most courageous thing you've ever done?   Francis: You know, it's funny. A lot of those things that scare me a little bit—but I'm not really that afraid of dying, or this, or that. You'll probably be surprised by this; but probably, the most courageous moments are—when I'm sitting on a plane with a stranger or talking to a neighbor—and I lay out the gospel, one on one, with them. That terrifies me. [Laughter]  20:00 That may just sound dumb to some people, but that's the hardest thing for me—to be rejected and to just throw—I can stand in front of 100,000 people in a stadium—no big deal! You put me, one on one, with someone that I know is not used to hearing about Jesus—and I'm going to lay it out for them—it still scares me to this day. It still takes courage.  Bob: Do you know how many people just went, “Oh, it's so good to hear him say that”? [Laughter]   Dennis: Here's what I want to share with you: “You're in good company.”   Bob: Yes.  Francis: Yes.  Dennis: We just recently asked a guy that same question—not just any guy—but a NASA astronaut, who was on the International Space Station. I asked him—he's been to outer space twice. So, he's strapped a rocket— Lisa: Right.  Dennis: —on and gone into outer space.  Bob: He floated out in nothing with the space suit and the tentacles on him; you know?     Dennis: Oh, yes—so, you with me?  I asked him the same question. It's like you—he's going, “Sharing my faith in Jesus Christ—" 21:00 Francis: Yes.  Dennis: —“is repeatedly the most courageous thing I ever do.”   Francis: Totally. And it's interesting—when I was younger, we didn't care for the poor. We didn't think about human trafficking—this or that. So, when we started doing that, that was a big deal; but now, that's not really a scary thing to do—that's very accepted / you know, you're a hero if you do this—but if you start sharing the gospel, you're going to get shutdown.  Dennis: Especially today; huh?   Francis: Amen!  It's—times are changing.  Dennis: Well, I just want to applaud you two and your book because I think you properly paint marriage with its noble, transcendent, God-imbued purpose—that we're made in His image, designed to reproduce a godly legacy, preach the gospel to the next generation, and glorify Him in all that we say and do. I just am glad you are using marriage to promote that kind of thinking because I think that's what's missing today.  22:00 Francis: Amen.  Dennis: I just want to thank you guys for being in the battle; and Lisa, for following this guy / for saying, “Yes,” to him— Bob: Crazy Francis; right?  That's— Dennis: Well, Crazy Love Francis.  Francis: There you go.  Bob: Maybe, just scrap the love part—I think Crazy Francis. [Laughter]   Dennis: But thank you guys for all you do.  Francis: Yes; thanks for having us.  Lisa: Yes; thank you very much.  Bob: We have copies of the book that Francis and Lisa have written. It's called You and Me Forever. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the website—FamilyLifeToday.com—or call to order the book, You and Me Forever—1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” And don't forget—this weekend is the wrap-up of the special offer we're making for FamilyLife Today listeners.  23:00 If you'd like to attend an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—a two-and-a-half-day getaway for couples in a nice setting, where you can relax and unwind, and just have a couple of days together, focusing on your marriage—every marriage could use that; right? Well, if you'd like to save 50 percent off the registration fee, you need to sign up this week to take advantage of the special offer. You can sign up, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to register at 1-800-FL-TODAY. If you have any questions, give us a call or go to our website; and plan to join us at a getaway. I tell couples all the time: “Most of us are more conscientious about making sure we change the oil in our car than we are about making sure we keep our marriage functioning the way it ought to be functioning,” and “Marriage takes some time, and effort, and work; and this is a part of how you do that.” So, sign up this week and join us at a Weekend to Remember getaway—save 50 percent off the regular registration fee.  24:00 Go to FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” And speaking of marriage, tomorrow, we're going to hear from our friend, Alistair Begg, who has some thoughts about the solemnity of marriage and about the importance of understanding marriage as a covenant relationship. We'll hear from him tomorrow. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

Topic - Healing and Making Space for a Life You Love, and what we can do to heal ourselves     Lisa Roulette - Spiritual Life Coach, Helps Women Heal and Not just Deal  Q:  Can you tell us about yourself and your story? What inspired you to help others heal?    A:  I lost both my brother and my husband When I lost my brother, I experienced a contraction in consciousness  I met my husband, he was like a knight in shining armour  He also passed, and I hit rock bottom  I met another man, and fell into a toxic relationship I really hit rock bottom, and lost my will to live  I was suicidal, but I had two boys who needed a mom  I had counselling, medication, support groups  I realized that I was DEALING with my situation, not healing  I had a realization that it was really time to HEAL my life and not take my life  I threw away my medication, fired my therapist, and dedicated myself to finding ways to heal my life and not just deal with my pain  I realized that I was meant to be alone for this transition  Now I'm happy, healthy and healed.   I feel it's obvious what my life purpose is now   Meghan:  I feel amazed and inspired, and grateful that you ended up on top.  How you overcame that is so empowering    Lisa:  Thank you.  I did the work.  I did a lot of work.  There is a lot of work to do.    Q:  I want to talk about traditional therapy.  Why do you think that conventional therapy and medicine doesn't work for people healing trauma?    A: I don't want to make a blanket statement and say it “doesn't work”.. The industry is evolving.     It's an industry that thrives on failure.  They're focused on managing pain, rather than transcending it and healing from it  Energy manifests in the physical realm as an experience, person, or thing.  We want to prevent it from manifesting as a thing… like a tumour.  There's a place for medication.  What I did when I threw out my medication was stupid.  It's about an expansion of consciousness,a new level of awareness It's important to look at it with a holistic perspective.  The real healer is you, you have to believe in your healing and take part in your healing    Meghan:  So it's really taking the power back, but still leveraging the knowledge in the medical system    Lisa:  Rather than “Take your power back” I would say: “Leverage the power that is already within”.  Realize you are the healer and creator.    Q:  So it's more about recognizing that you have the power.    A:  I think you have to go a little bit further than discussing “raising your vibe”, but do practices that are going to help you create change in your life    Grow in your awareness and realize how much more you can actually heal.    Recognize that you are healing and creating all the time. Q:  A lot of people may not recognize that they have something to heal.  They start to recognize it when they keep hitting blocks.    Can you explain, even when it's not something necessarily traumatic, how this process can help them?    A:  100% of people on the planet have something to heal from    Trauma comes through our genetics  Bruce Lipton and Joe Dispenza discuss this  When we look back in time, we find beliefs that have left people in a contracted state of awareness    How do you heal at a deeper level?  It all begins with self-awareness. Asking intelligent questions about what your history looks like, and how that has led you to this place and time.   Everything we're living now, is a reflection of our past. Asking these questions invites a higher level of awareness.   It's about finding your own way and your own path that helps you...not necessarily a specific thing.  Starting to understand your purpose, find significantly greater awareness.   It all begins in self-awareness.  It's hard. It's just about working on it, and being really honest with yourself.   Journalling - mind/hand connection will draw things out from the energy body and help it come out and release.     We look at the anatomy of the energy body as well when understanding past patterns and beliefs.    Q:  I can see the benefit of having a coach.  If you're not used to practicing self-awareness, having someone guide you to ask the right questions and give you tools would be very helpful.    A:  Self awareness is not a high value in our society, and it needs to become one.   One of the reasons I do what I do is to help people make this journey shorter and help them heal.     We don't need to “deal”.  We need to go through the process of healing which is expansion and transcendence.    Q:  Healing is absolutely 100% necessary to moving into a higher version of yourself.  If self-awareness is the first step, what is the next step?    A:  The guardian principle of healing is self awareness, and the number one tool is knowledge.  For me, it's understanding the energy body    Understanding and taking care of yourself on another level.    Early in my career I was always comparing myself to others and I had to heal those beliefs.   Heal what is keeping you in a lower vibration and preventing you from expanding into a higher level of consciousness.     The vibration of being stuck is very 3 dimensional, it's like being stuck with blinders.    Ask intelligent questions and expand your perspective.   Usually when you slip back into old patterns and feelings, it means that you haven't truly healed.   Q:  Would you say you're completely healed?    A:  No, I think we're healing indefinitely    I believe in a scale:  Consciousness, Vibration, Awareness, Emotions    At the bottom of the scale are low vibration feelings.    In the middle is reason, willingness and courage.   At the very top is enlightenment.    I believe we're going through this process of expansion.  I try to get people to the middle area of the triangle.    This is a way of life; getting into a meditative state and higher awareness in life, while everything else is going on around you. Q:  How does healing the trauma and low vibrational energies contribute to manifestation?  Can you speak to the power of possibility of manifesting when you're in that expansive state?    A: Manifesting and Healing are the same thing    Healing is the releasing of resistance.  Resistance is the wound, self-sabotage, limiting belief.  With more expansion and awareness you don't feel so rushed, stuck and resistant.    You can feel it, you just know.   Q:  Everything aligns without effort.  Getting to this place is not going to be done by avoiding our emotions. Why do you think a lot of people avoid this process?    A:  First of all, because they don't know. It's not in their awareness that they can heal.    They also don't know that if you don't heal… these wounds and limiting beliefs will manifest in your life  They also don't know that it's possible, and that the tools are available    Now, the creator part of me knows how to manage my emotions.   I think you're constantly healing and manifesting.    Even though it is a lot of work, it becomes second nature, and it becomes powerful.    It feels purposeful and in line with why we're here as human beings.  Q:  Can you tell us a little bit more about the Master class and your course    A: Free Master Class - Guardian Principle and #1 Tool  An introduction to the work I share areas where I think it's a good place to start    Healing Path   4 week program  Carving the path  The guiding light of where you need to start A whole other level of living, and it's fun & powerful  Learn energy anatomy - talk about how things manifest  Design a vision  Tie it together so you can live from this higher level of awareness for the rest of your life   *Embodiment - expand your awareness    Meghan:  Heal the wounds so you can be receptive to what is available to you LINKS:    Free Master Class - http://www.lisaroulette.com/healtomanifest/     The Healing Path - https://www.lisaroulette.com/thehealingpath/     *Discount Code - AWAKEN10   Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/lisa_roulette/    Website - https://www.lisaroulette.com/

Whether it's failing fast or being agile, leadership has already changed a lot from more traditional approaches. Our guest in this episode brings a lot of expertise surrounding what leadership and the workplace look like today, and what it will look like in 10 years. We are pleased to have Lisa Rueth, the Senior Partner and CEO of Cultivate Leadership, a consulting firm that is dedicated to leadership science, organizational design, and executive coaching. With over 20 years of experience, Lisa has dedicated her career to helping organizations with the mechanics of leadership, human performance, and systems of collaboration. Lisa studied Applied Leadership and Organizational Psychology at the Ken Blanchard School of Business and did graduate work in Authentic Leadership at Naropa University and has a Masters in Social Change, marrying her passion for empowering leaders doing world changing work. Below is a partial transcript of this episode. For the full transcript, click here: https://hrdailyadvisor.blr.com/2019/07/09/hr-works-transcript-this-is-what-leadership-looks-like-in-10-years/ James: Hello, everyone, and welcome to HR Works, the podcast for HR professionals. HR has an important job: predicting the future. The urgency of that job grows with each passing year as various technologies rapidly advance. In a presentation that I recently attended, Ginni Rometty, the CEO of IBM, stated that skills learned today will be obsolete in 5 years. That stunning fact alone well couches the problem at hand. Technology is evolving far too quickly for employees to keep up, and HR is the exception. Today's guest specializes in what the workplace—and, in particular, leadership—will look like in 2025. I'm pleased to introduce Lisa Rueth, the senior partner and CEO of Cultivate Leadership, a consulting firm that is dedicated to leadership science, organizational design, and executive coaching. Lisa: Thank you for having me. What a pleasure and an honor. James: Absolutely. How about we jump right in? There are going to be a lot of changes to the workplace and to leadership over the next 10 years. For example, I see that there's going to be, by some estimates, as many as 800 million jobs lost globally by 2030. That's not that many jobs, right? Lisa: It's a lot. It's a lot. It's even more important to think through how automation will reshape entire industries. Right? It's not just the jobs that we're losing—it's entire industries and people who have particular skills. Like a large majority of some of those industries will be—think of trucking, right? Think of cars. They're autonomous. Think of trains, transportation, and airplanes. So, what we end up with are people. There's an entire category of people who are skilled for hands-on work that we have, over time—over the last 50 years, become more and more accustomed to outsourcing to other workers around a globalized marketplace. So, losing jobs is a problem within itself, but losing jobs for a particular category of people is also a problem that we have to grapple with.

My guest today is digital governance advocate Lisa Welchman. For the past twenty years, Lisa has helped organizations manage the flow of their digital information. In this episode, she tells us about how content models and governance frameworks can help organizations manage their information more intentionally and safely. Listen to the full conversation https://theinformeddotlife.files.wordpress.com/2019/06/episode-11-lisa-welchman.mp3   Show notes Lisa Welchman Managing Chaos: Digital Governance by Design, by Lisa Welchman Insight Timer Scientific Eve Read the full transcript Jorge: All right, Lisa, tell us about yourself. Lisa: Not sure what you want to know. Do you want to know technical Lisa, musical Lisa, all of the Lisas? Jorge: Lisa sounds like a very multi-faceted person and I am super intrigued now by everything you've said, so why don't we take those in that order? Lisa: So there's governance Lisa. I don't remember which one I said first. There's governance Lisa, what I really have been doing – it's taken me a while to figure it out – for the last 20 years, is help – usually businesses, but sometimes nonprofits, sometimes higher education, sometimes governments sometimes NGOs – so anyone, I guess – organizations, let's put it that way. I help organizations who are dealing with it sort of multi-faceted online presence figure out how to get organized so that they can make that with better intention, higher quality, and more recently, I've also been saying safely; with safety in mind, right? So as everyone knows, but I'll just say it again, the web sort of crept on organizations particularly ones that already existed prior to the advent of the commercial web, sort of snuck up on people and so they've tried to impose some of their previous work practices. And previous disciplines and domains like marketing, IT. to try to make digital fit within those confines of what this groups already doing. It doesn't really, right? Because while there are a lot of similarities and a lot of things the marketing team could claim as theirs, or an IT team could claim as theirs, there are some unique ways that information flows inside an organization that demands some tweaks to that and even some new things the adage that work model. So that's what I spend most of my time doing. It's really helping these organizations digest digital and integrate those practices in their organization. So that's for one that existed already prior to that. Occasionally, I'll work with dot-coms. Sometimes very different model. They're all digital, right? So they're trying to figure out the reverse which is how they impose structure and any kind of governing practice into a new business model. So the aim is the same which is how can we create and put things online and safe manner and a clear manner and with intention. So that's what I spend most of my time doing. In my spare time, I do all kinds of things. My son says I don't know how to sit still or I'm a production-oriented person. I don't think that's entirely true, but he might be right. And you know, I spend time I make a lot of music and recording music. I posted music on the Insight Meditation timer so I create these interesting meditation pieces and put those online. Creating them helps me relax and I like to share that with other people. And I also quilt which is a fun thing to do. We were mentioning before we hit the record button that quilting is very mathematically oriented geometry in particular. It's just a fun way to relax to sort of design and make those quilts as well. So those are probably the primary things that I do. Jorge: What type of music do you play? Lisa: The first thing I am is a singer. The second thing that I am is a jazz pianist. This is in order of competency. So I sing the best. And I do a lot of that. I was trained as a classical singer and then we do some jazz on the side because I grew up in a time where there were a lot of replays of Cole Porter songbook all the American Songbook, all this classic Gershwin all that sort of thing. So I grew up with that songbook; listening to a lot of Ella Fitzgerald. My dad was a jazz nut. A lot of musicians in my family. And so, I started to Jazz sing probably when I was in my 20s. And I started to get annoyed at not being able to find someone to play the piano for me consistently. And so I learned a little bit piano, taking like five or six years of piano lessons in childhood. And so I thought you know by the time I finish complaining about this I could have learned how to do this myself. So I also play jazz piano, but it's really hard to accompany yourself. So I have a lot of admiration for people who do that. But I do it for pleasure. It's fun. I wanted to talk about when we did this… to talk about just organization in general. Information organization, inside of a business or corporation or whatever you want to call it, school. And then also the organization of the team that makes that information so, you know, I think that's just an important component that I really like to bring out. Because when you asked me to do this it was confusing to me, and I've come to the conclusion – and I may have actually written in this in my book and forgot about it – but there was just this symbiotic relationship between the team that creates the information and the information. And those things need to be architected in complementary ways so that they can support each other. And there's also sort of a chicken and egg thing that comes on. When I work with a lot of digital teams inside of an organization, the number one complaint is usually the content people, right? And they're usually inside the marketing team, and they're upset because they're trying to create some sort of content model – could be an information model – and they're not able to do it consistently because they don't have any authority over the team of people that make that content. That's a complaint. You know what it should be, you know how the information should flow, whether or not that's omni-channel, whether or not it's just a simple modular reuse of certain types of content, chunks not omni-channel. It could be just the reuse of content on a set of websites or single website. They can't get control over that information flowing is usually because the team isn't structured to do so. Jorge: The shape of the team affects the shape of the information, right? Lisa: Or the other way around. In fact, that is what I think is the really interesting question. What's dominant? That's why I'm calling it a symbiotic relationship. So say you're – I don't know – an airplane manufacturer. There's a few of those, like we could be talking about any of them. So you're an airplane manufacturer and you've existed since airplanes have been manufactured and you have work processes and models that are in place to support paper-based content delivery or information delivery. And it's very very controlled in that way and you're conservative. So all of that information comes out of that office of communications or marketing department has reviewed and that's how it gets done. In comes the World Wide Web, into that model, and we all know – I won't tell that story again – the web comes, everyone claims it, and you get a lot of things popping up inside the organization. So maybe one business aspect of the organization thinks they want to have a website that says this, and another says that. And so you get this fragmentation. That's what happened; it's happened to everything on the web. Let's not talk about dot coms right now. Let's just keep that to businesses that existed prior to the web and had the web sort of imposed on them. Right? So all of a sudden here comes the web things start to pop up because you have new rules about how to manage the web in the organization, and then you fast forward 25 years, which is now, and you say something like. Oh, I want to do omni-channel, right? How would you actually get that done? So who's driving that and what's the structure of people to get that done? Say you figure that out; you figure out how to do omni-channel. It means that you need to be consistent about certain content standards across the organization. If you live in an organization that has a highly decentralized behavior, the culture is one of decentralization, and where certain business units are allowed to make certain decisions, they may not like having a consistent content model imposed on them. And you can say, well so what? They don't like it, they still have to do it. But if the culture is that that's not how they do it, they don't actually have to do it. Right? And that's the governing problem that affects the piece: how do you make these people do that? Or you could say, there's another thing you could say: we're going to say it stays decentralized but we still want you to follow this content model, but we don't want you to produce it in a decentralized way, we want you to make your stuff, send it back to headquarters, we'll review it, and we'll clean it up and brush it up and make it the way we want, and then we will deploy it. That's a horrible content model. It creates a bottleneck. But that's a way to get it done. So there's a lot of different ways to get it done. But you have to settle on something and a certain set of compromises that you have to make on the people side and a content side to get it done. That's the struggle. Jorge: For the benefit of our listeners, what is a content model? Lisa: Content model to me is the structures and processes that need to be put in place in order to deliver information to the community of users that you want to deliver, when they want it, how they want it, just in time right in time. How do we best do that serve the mission of the organization? Maybe that might just mean minimal content reuse for folks, right? It may mean highly modular content. One of those exciting things that for me and my career is that I started out at Cisco Systems. And they already had a multichannel delivery in 1999. And I talked about this in my book, but and I keep talking about it, but it's true. Like people come to me now. They still can't do multi-channel content delivery . So we had a content model Framemaker that basically imposed content reuse and they delivered to multiple channels. The channels were to a CD-ROM drive, make a book that you can put in a box – this is 1999 – make a book that you can put in the box with the servers or routers that Cisco sold, and the last one, or the last two ones were push to the web and push to the intranet — basic content information so that the sales team could see the information and they knew what they were selling. And there's a lot of redundancy in that content. So they created a model that you knew what content needed to be used for which delivery whether it's the book, CD-ROM, or the web. So they created that model. And my point is that when you create a content model there's a certain type of workflow that goes along with that content model. If you're going to reuse a title, if you're going to reuse a whole white paper – which at that time was a big deal – you have to think about who needs to touch those things in workflow to get them working particularly well. And my point is that that content model may not fit well with how an organization works culturally. You might be insisting on consistency across multiple business units when they never had to do it before. And that means that they don't have shared work practices. Maybe they don't want to use the same standard. Maybe they don't like the writing style; one business unit doesn't like the writing style that's used for the content and they're used to having their own. And see how this push and pull. And you have to create that sort of symbiotic relationship between a workflow and the content so you get the right balance. It's real challenge. I mean, I'm listening to myself and understand that I'm making this sound really really complicated, but it's not. It's very simple in a lot of ways what's complicated is people. People don't want to do it. Jorge: So the way that you're describing it, it sounds to me like what the content model does, is it brings everyone onto the same playing field when it comes to language, right? Like you said that in the Cisco example, all those various channels by which content got communicated to folks ended up informing the sales team and getting them to a degree of cohesiveness about what they were selling. So I can see how that would influence the culture of the organization because in some ways it's like you're putting rails around the language they use. Lisa: Right. And you know, people don't like that. The interesting thing about the digital space and the web space is that the way that it came out of the box was very sort of wild and unruly. Everyone likes to say “Wild West,” but it is a good example. There weren't any rules. When I was at Cisco, we were making up stuff as we went along. Jorge: I'm wondering about how people did this before the internet because you're talking about the arrival of the web in particular as this kind of turning point of sorts. Lisa: I think yes, if you know what it's just it's… It is a significant inflection point for for humanity, the sharing of information globally and instantly is definitely an inflection point for human beings and I think we're just starting that. We celebrated the 30th anniversary of the web this year who that's really nothing. I say all the time it took, you know, a really really long time for printing to mature, it took a really really long time for the phone to commoditize, it took a long time for people to know how to manufacture cars safely. We're struggling with all these things right now. How do we have consistent standards across the board? Lucky for us, the World Wide Web is standards-based. If you don't follow certain standards, it's just isn't going to push through the browser. It's not going to work. So I'm not talking about the technology. I'm talking about standards within our organization. And people like to say that organizations don't make standards or have standards and that's just not true. Organizations usually have a consistent business card, a consistent brand which includes a consistent mark. They have consistent ways that they use language. They have consistency around the way that they house their employees. They have these big campuses that have consistent layouts that have naming conventions for their conference rooms. So when I walk in and they tell me, ” we don't do standards here.” I'm like, “that's just not true. What you haven't decided is that digital is something that should be in that set of things that you all do in a standardized way”. Right? And part of that is the web has a culture of do what you want when you want. And I grew up in that culture. There were no rules and so the web as a discipline and digital as a discipline needs to mature. Now does that mean that everything has to be sort of choked through this gate of sameness? No. That would be one way to do it, right? But that doesn't mean it just means that an organization needs to be consistent about how they push information through the organization and therefore consistent about how they staff for those positions that move that information. So a lot of times, I'm walking in and there's a digital team that's already formed with names in it: UX; it's usually split somewhere between IT and marketing communications and some loud people in the business units. They all have names, they all have jobs, and they basically are saying “give me a governing framework, but don't change my job.” Right? And that's not how it works. If you want to have an omni-channel experience for your users. You're probably going to have to change the way you create information, which means you're going to have to change the jobs of people that create information and that's really what people are pushing up against, right? They'll all agree that this is a great content model. We want to do this type of delivery scheme for information management for our users. But as soon as you say that means you're going to lose your power or you have to move from here or no marketing, IT does get a say about certain systems, or you need to tell the business units to rein themselves in about making certain choices people get really in a muddle. Right? And so that's really what they're bucking up against and it makes it a very interesting human problem. Jorge: When you're talking about content and communications, I can think of at least two different kinds of communication and content being produced. One is the sort of stuff that goes out to the world. So you're talking for example about marketing and marketing produces content that gets shared with people outside the organization. And then there is content that is meant for internal consumption, just for the folks who work at the company. And I'm guessing that these governance frameworks affect both. Is that the case? Lisa: Well, they often are different governing frameworks. So a governing framework for me is about decision-making. Who gets to make decisions about standards. A content model is a standard for delivering content. Brand has a set of standards that are underneath it. IT has a set of standards. Right? So it's decision-making about standards. In some organizations the internet and the intranet, which is that external and internal content names, which I'm talking about websites just to be simple, right? Those things aren't managed by the same team. It doesn't happen that often. So the governing framework of who makes decisions about standards for the intranet and internet might be similar. In most instances, it's not the same. Some other organization does the internet and some other one does any external-facing things. And so you might have different governing frameworks, and you often do. Right? Because it's who makes decisions about the standards for internally consumed content might be different. Marketing usually doesn't want to have anything to do with that but everything to do with external, right? So those are going to be different types of governing frameworks. However, the types of decision-making that happens in a governance framework are threefold: strategies, policies, and standards. So standards might be made by different people in the group, strategies might be different, but oftentimes the policy-making framework is the same for internet and intranet because it usually has to do with compliance and regulatory aspects and then talking about the legal team or compliance team and that can sort of roll up . But sometimes that can be different as well. So these are just sort of dry things that nobody wants to think about. But it is the thing that people fight about the most. I have a new visual design for the website. Who gets to decide what that is? That's the number one fight. It is the number one fight inside of an organization, used to be what's on the home page. Number one fight, right? So figuring out who makes these decisions about standards is really important and if you can figure that out once for the internet, once for the intranet, once for the extranet, what that decision-making paradigm is, multiple projects and operational teams can flow through that governing framework. But people don't want to do that. It's really fascinating. I've been doing this for 20 years and just now with the sort of blow-ups that you're seeing in the dot-coms are people starting to say, “oh wait, this stuff needs to be governed. There needs to be policy, there needs to be standards, whose supposed to be making rules about safety? How do you make safe online products?” Right? And so it's really fascinating that now after 20 years, I think we've reached a letter level of maturity and another inflection point where were like, okay, you see what we can happen when we blow this stuff up in a very large way. How are we going to govern that from a Global Perspective? Right? That's really the tough question, who's going to make rent rules about how we govern the World Wide Web – not from a technology perspective, but almost behaviorally. What is okay stuff to do on the web and not okay stuff to do? So that challenge can be in a business, in a big dot com, working the inside a for-profit business, in a non-profit, for a government. The way that the web is governed in China is very different than the way the web is governed in France. So this governance thing, not self-serving, I think is central right now. Whether or not you're trying to publish content in a way that makes sense for whether or not you trying to govern the whole web. It's the same problem. Jorge: How has doing this work influenced the way that you use information yourself? Lisa: Do you mean actually doing the work of working with the folks on a governing model? Or just in general, what have I absorbed in my own work practices? Jorge: The latter, because it's a meta thing, right? Like you're advising folks on how to be more intentional about their use of information and I'm wondering if you have picked up any patterns, any best practices that have helped you in your own use of information. Lisa: Probably yes. But I would say what probably is more true is the reverse. So you asked me about myself at the beginning of this podcast and I talked about music and I talked about quilting and I talked about governance. Well, what do all of those things have in common? They are all very highly organized. So despite looking at my not organized home or my not visually organized tasks, which would make some people crazy, in my head I'm very organized. So I studied philosophy in school and people think that when I say that they're thinking of a Jean-Paul Sartre with a beret on their head and smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee. Right? And thinking existential thoughts. And I did a little bit of that. But then I got very quickly to symbolic logic. And for every year, which was four years of undergrad in the US and then a year in grad school where I decided didn't want to be a philosophy professor. For every year, I took symbolic logic very very deeply. And I was very interested in semantics. People don't talk about the semantic web anymore for all the reasons we were talking about. Delivering on the semantic web would be very very challenging High degree of organization across the board. So people don't talk about that. So I think what's more happening is my love of organization has led me to this aspect of managing and thinking about digital – so not in a visual, in my face kind of way, where people really need to have visual organization – in fact, I collect art and it's all abstract. All abstract art. Would make people crazy. I'm really trying to impose organization on things, on any type of paradigm that I see, I'm always trying to systematize it and figure out, how does this work? Like add a meta- level, what is going on? What are the dynamics that are happening? That's what I'm really interested in. You know, what are the dynamics of Team? What are the dynamics of the content? How are these two things going to dance together, partner to partner, in a way that's elegant, that gets the job done, but also allows the other one to have its own entity, have its own being. And so that's really what's happened. I love organizational patterns, period. If I can quilt them, if I can chord-progress them through music, absolutely fantastic. One of the interesting things I talk about in my book is how the reason that I like jazz is because it has a structural frame underneath it. Right? And on top of it you can improvise. And that's really, I think, what everybody's trying to get to. Some people want to improvise a little bit, some people a lot. But organizations need that structured frame so that everyone just one understands what the patterns are and then if you get that right and you allow each entity inside the team to maximize what they do well within that frame, then you get the best of both worlds. You get a structured content model that is really well managed. You get people who love their jobs because they're allowed to improvise and freestyle within that framework and do things that they love. And you get this beautiful output that your customers or your citizens, whoever it might be, actually are congruent with. And I'd say in the digital space we see very little of that dance. You just sort of see everybody either trying to freestyle or we see it so locked down that it's not interesting or it's not really delivering. And so that I think is really going to be the challenge of the next 20 or 30 years for the enterprise, which is how to create that balance. How to make my team and marketing work together when they have two very different types of work patterns. There's so much freestyle going on that some of the stuff that's getting delivered is not safe. Right? And so I think we're going to be calming down and actually putting into place governing models in the organization and more broadly across the web, the cross vertical market spaces like healthcare, using that as an example, to make sure that things are operating with intention – I love that word, I use it all the time – and safely. Jorge: When you use this fabulous analogy with jazz – and I think it is fabulous because this notion that the structure is what grants you the freedom to improvise — the fact that it's not turning into a mush because everyone is working off the same underlying structures. When I think of good jazz, they are making amazing music that works with the structure but also feels loose and the players are listening to each other and responding to what the others are doing. And there's this kind of looseness. So there is a balance between the structure and also the looseness of going to where the music takes them. And the notion that popped in my mind is that that requires a certain degree of mastery on the part of the players. Right? Lisa: Yeah, I would say so. One thing is I'll say I'm less judgmental than you are about good jazz. So I like the type of jazz you're talking about and might even lean in your direction personally, but I would also say there's highly scripted jazz. Musicians are in a big band in their reading off of the thing and only occasionally will somebody stand up and solo. But for the most time, they're reading music and they're playing that. Right? And so that's good and true if that's your intention. One of the things that I say when content teams in the corporate structure of an organization do not want to decentralize the creation of content outside of that, they don't want to give it to the business units because they don't trust them to do a good job, and I say,” hire well and train often.” That's a job they don't want to do. You'd be surprised still how much of information and content creation is collateral duty for people who are not trained to do that. So you're going to get kind of crap, right? Just as there are people who are trained to select and deploy web content management systems and to understand how technology stack works. Those people aren't necessarily only in IT or only in marketing. If you know how to do that well you can get a job anywhere because IT and marketing are trying to pick up those things. So there are disciplines and competencies, particularly in the digital space, that need to be written down and then you need to hire well or you need to train people to do something well. And then you get that quality. And that's all the freestyling part that you said that you liked a lot. I like it too because I think that's what most people want. They want to go to work and do something that they love and do it well and be in an environment that supports them in doing that. And then you have happy employees, happy at work. And then you have happy people. When you have happy people, I think you get less of the bad things in the world. If you have people going to jobs that they don't like or that push against their needs that's not going to help anyone globally, or just humanity globally. And maybe I'm just stretching that out a little bit but I think that's important component the human components important when to bring in. Jorge: I love this idea of setting up these structures not necessarily with the objective of constraining people, but to make their work easier and make them happier. I love that. This is actually a great place to wrap it up. So where can folks find you, Lisa? Lisa: Well, they can find a little bit about me and a contact form at lisawelchman.com and they can buy my book Managing Chaos: Digital Governance by Design either at Rosenfeld Media or on Amazon. Jorge: I'm also wondering where folks can listen to your music. Lisa: If you are a part of the Insight Timer community, I'll tell people a secret: I publish my music under a name, Scientific Eve. So see, even in that even in my arty name there's science. Jorge: Well, fantastic. Thank you for sharing that with us and thank you for sharing just in general what you're doing. It sounds fascinating. Lisa: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. End music: “Good Morning” by Scientific Eve

Join the Marriage After God movement and grab a copy of our new book today. https://marriageaftergod.com In this episode, we interview Matt & Lisa Jacobson From http://FaithfulMan.com and http://Club31Women.com & Faithful Family podcast. Here is a quote from our book Marriage After God “Your marriage is the message you are preaching to others. The way you and your spouse interact with each other reveals the gospel you believe.” Dear Lord, Thank you for creating marriage with such a significant purpose of revealing to the world your divine love. Please help us to make choices that reflect your love in the way we love one another. May we choose to walk in obedience. Thank you for your word which instructs us and shows us how we should walk in obedience. Please continue to give us wisdom and strength as we choose to walk in the Spirit and not our flesh. We pray we would make our marriage a priority. We pray we would gain a deeper understanding of how our marriage is our first ministry and the impact we have in each other’s lives and in this world, just by remaining faithful to your word. If our priorities are ever out of order or if we are not unified please help us to change course. Constantly direct our hearts to align with yours. May our marriage always be in a place where you can use us as a symbol to point others to you and may you be glorified. In Jesus’ name, amen! READ: [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith of Marriage after God. [Lisa] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're in part five of the Marriage after God series, and we're gonna be talking with Matt and Lisa Jacobsen about marriage being your first ministry. [Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage after God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life, [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is marriage after God. [Aaron] Hey, thanks for joining us on week five of this series that we're doing. I hope you're enjoying it. You're definitely going to enjoy today's guests. But before we move on, as always, we want to invite you to leave a review. Those reviews help the podcast get seen by new audiences. So, if you've been enjoying the content, we'd love a star rating, which is the easiest way to do it, all you gotta do is tap a star in the app. And if you really, really want to and have time, leaving us a text review would be awesome. We read every single one of 'em, and we love them, so thank you for that. [Jennifer] Another way you can support this podcast-- [Aaron] So today on this episode, we're gonna be talking about content from chapter five of our book, Marriage after God. And the chapter's titled, "Your First Ministry." and we thought, what better way to talk about this chapter than to talk with our pastors and ask them who inspired us and showed us what it looked like to recognize our marriage as ministry. And now we actually reference them and talk about them in this chapter, and so today we have Matt and Lisa Jacobson with us, welcome. [Lisa] Hey, nice to be here. [Matt] Awesome to be here, you bet. [Aaron] Yeah, and we're in our garage, sitting on our couches. And today we're gonna be talking about this topic. But before we talk about that, why don't you introduce to the audience, just in case they don't know you guys, who you are, children, marriage, all that. [Matt] Okay, well, Matt Jacobsen, and this is my lovely woman. [Lisa] Hey, hello. [Matt] Lisa, and so we've been married for 26 years. We have eight kids between the ages of 12 and about 25. [Lisa] Yup. [Matt] Right, and there are four of them are out of the house and moved on. And so, what keeps us busy when we're not just hanging out and kissing in a dark corner somewhere. [Lisa] That's right. We also, we do homeschool and we do a lot of work with our kids. Our kids help us out with what we do at home and also in our ministry. [Matt] And so, speaking of ministries. So, my website is Faithfulman.com. [Lisa] And I'm Lisa with Club31women.com. [Matt] And so that is a writing ministry that speaks to marriage, parenting, church, and culture. Biblical perspective on those things. And so, that comprises a lot of what takes up our time in a given week. And then, of course, we're the pastors of a small local fellowship as well. [Aaron] Yeah, it's our fellowship. [Matt] That's right. [Aaron] You're our pastors. And we love you guys. And by the way, if everyone listening didn't hear what those were, that's faithfulman.com and club31women.com. You guys should definitely check them out. And why don't you tell them about your newest podcast that you guys just launched? [Matt] Awesome, okay. Well, the name of that podcast is Faithful Life. And it's essentially a podcast that is pursuing the and exploring the topic of what does it mean to live as a biblical Christian. There are a lot of people in the world, lot of Christians, people who identify as Christians, who are living a life that is really separate or tangential to the Bible. And really, if you're going to be a biblical Christian, you've gotta know what the Bible says about these various aspects of life: marriage, parenting, how we're to live within church community and then how we're to interact with the culture. And so, that's the focus of the podcast, faithful-- [Lisa] With a lot of emphasis on practical ways to do that, sometimes we kinda know in our heads what the right thing to do is, or what we believe the Bible says, but then how does that look in our day-to-day life, and that's something that matt and I really have a passion for is just connecting those two things. [Matt] And a little bit of experience. It's only been, what, 26 years you've been married and walking with the Lord and learning through all of the eight children. [Aaron] So we just want everyone to check out their podcast; it's called Faithful Life. And you're gonna love it. Just search for it wherever you listen to podcasts. So, let's get into the icebreaker question. And this is how we start all the episodes. It's just a fun question. How does your spouse like their coffee and what does that say about them? [Lisa] Okay, I get to go first on this one. Because everybody that knows Matt Jacobson well knows that he likes his coffee black, but, even more importantly, he likes it burning hot so that it burns a hole in your tongue, so he, if-- [Matt] And you better not put it in a cold cup. [Lisa] Right, the best way to show love to Matt Jacobson is to heat up the cup first and then pour his coffee into it. [Matt] Wow, that's one of the ways over the years you've shown love to me. But right, so anyway-- [Lisa] In the coffee-- [Matt] No, that's right in the coffee, in the realm of coffee. And Lisa takes her coffee with a teaspoon of sugar and cream and-- [Lisa] That's right, I like it a little sweet. [Matt] She likes it a little sweet, that's right. [Aaron] And it's just like her character too. Little sweet. [Matt] And I love making coffee for her; I do. In the morning, I love making coffee. I love bringing her a cup of coffee in the morning. [Jennifer] And you guys do coffee as a family a lot, so can you just share a little bit about that 'cause I just love that. [Matt] Okay, so, why don't you tell how we've corrupted our young children? [Lisa] Well, we started off in our marriage. We started each day with having coffee. Matt would make a coffee tray for him and I, and we would sit and have coffee together. And then as each child came along, we then slowly incorporated them into this special time until it became something our whole family just loves and so even our older kids when they come home for the holidays or different vacations, they'll come and that's the thing they look forward to most is having our time together over a pot of coffee. And we just talk about what we're thinking about, what's going on in our world, and it's just a really close family time. [Matt] And you know, oh, sorry. That whole process of incorporating the kids into it. It's kind of funny because it's really a metaphor, or an example, if you will, of what happens in your family. Over time, we're very strict with the older kids. I don't even remember when we began allowing them to have coffee. Including them. I don't even remember, do you remember how old they were? [Lisa] No. [Matt] But, as time went on, the younger kids just get to start earlier and earlier. And I think we started, did Hawkin have his first? [Lisa] He was about seven or eight maybe-- [Aaron] It was a bottle right? [Lisa] When he had his first cup of coffee. [Matt] That's right. [Lisa] A very, very tiny cup of coffee, mostly milk. [Jennifer] Mostly milk, yeah. [Matt] Yeah, right, and so now we're going, okay, so. [Lisa] Almost because their dad's kind of soft on the issue. [Matt] I am; I am. [Jennifer] I was just gonna say, I follow Lisa on Instagram, and I love watching your stories because you'll post about it every once in a while of just your guys' family time around that, and it's beautiful and you can just tell, just from that short glimpse that you give the rest of us that it's a really beautiful time that you're cultivating in your family. [Matt] And in some senses, like you see the snapshot, and it is awesome, it really is. But, it's just so normal, a part of life, and a wonderful life is built on a lot of normal moments that you just string together over time. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm, it's true, yeah, it's good. [Matt] And so, yeah. [Aaron] Yeah, there's the big one-offs that are memorable, but then there's the, it's the everyday things that shape who we are, it's all those habits that we have and those routines. I love that. Why don't you share the quote from the chapter? And then we'll just start asking questions. [Jennifer] Okay, so this is from chapter five of Marriage after God. "Your marriage is the message you are preaching to other, "the way you and your spouse interact with each other "reveals the gospel you believe." [Aaron] Matt and Lisa, how would you that that is true in what you guys have experienced, because it's something that you've definitely not only shown us through your own marriage, but also directly have shown us in ours in saying hey, you can't expect to have this ministry over here if your home doesn't match. So could you give me some insight on how this quote plays out in real life? [Matt] Well, one of the things that you just naturally see in life is you see people in ministry and what's the big joke in America, at least it used to be, I don't know if it still is, who are the worst kids in church? The PKs, the preacher's kids, right? And so, that is so antithetical to how we're called to live in the word of God because we are called ambassadors. That means that we are representatives of the kingdom of God on earth. We bear the name of Christ, and we're his representatives. And how is it possible that you have this ministry or you have this public presence, and then it's not true in your own personal life. You wanna tell somebody about the wonderful truths of Scripture. And you wanna tell somebody the gospel and explain to them how they can have a wonderful relationship with the Lord. And then you don't have, you're not living those wonderful relationships in your family. I know that we had seen a lot of this early on. And we were even involved in a particular church, years and years ago, they were lovely people but focused just on evangelism and kinda lost the relationships with their kids over time. We just saw-- [Lisa] And in their marriage. [Matt] This family's disintegrating. And the marriage is. Then we though, you know what, the life that we're called to as believers is much more holistic than that. And the truths of the gospel are supposed to be manifest in our lives. And if I could just say one more thing. I know you've got a lot to say, too. You see in the instructions for church leadership in the book of 1 Timothy, one of the principal requirements of anybody in ministry and this is serving as an elder or a deacon within the church. [Aaron] Yes, specific position. [Matt] One of the principal requirements is that you've demonstrated that your children have yielded hearts to you. You're governing your family well. You're leading your family well. There's a sense of order and peace in your home. So God wants it to be true at home before we go out to represent him to the world. [Aaron] And what does Paul tell Timothy, he says how can you presume to manage the household of God if you can't manage your own home, which is how he, after all that teaching, he says that it doesn't make sense. [Matt] Yeah. [Lisa] And I think that Matt's kind of big picture guy. And I'm more of what does that look like in my day kind of person. And one thing I had noticed that in Scripture, when it talks about how we are to be towards one another, how we're to be, to be loving, patient, kind. And we apply all of those things to out there. So, just an example: I go to the grocery store, and the cashier's taking forever to get me through the line. And she apologizes, but I've read the Bible, so I'm going to be, oh it's fine, I'll wait. I understand you're trying your hardest, and we'll get through here because I'm being patient, and I'm being kind. And then I go home, and I have a different response when it takes Matt forever to come out and help me bring in the groceries in the house. Or, because I'll be snippin' at him-- [Matt] Has that ever happened, like even one time in our marriage? [Lisa] Like I wait for you? Do you really wanna bring that up? [Aaron] Everyone listening was like that was just today. [Lisa] So, but it really struck home to me that all those things that we think apply to out there to strangers or maybe to friends. It somehow, or maybe there's a disconnect, to actually sometimes the hardest person, sometimes, is actually the person your married to. [Jennifer] I was just gonna say, thinking about our own marriage. I used to do this thing where I would always be upbeat and positive and smiley with everyone. And then I'd come home and immediately my countenance would change, and Aaron-- [Aaron] I finally called you out on it, I was like-- [Jennifer] Yeah, 'cause Aaron would be like-- [Aaron] Why do they get the smiles and then I get this? [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] What is this? [Jennifer] And then I remember specifically him saying, I want your best. And I had to figure it out. I had to figure out why I was doing that and check my flesh on it really. [Aaron] Well, I think there's a default position of, well, I have you, therefore you should deal with who I actually wanna be today, and everyone else has to, I want them to see the best part of me. It's almost like it's just totally backwards. And it's actually lying. [Matt] Well, the harsh reality of the circumstance is who you actually are in terms of your personal character is who you are when the doors are shut and you're letting your hair down, so to speak, and you're just being your natural self with the people where the consequences might not be as immediate or severe as they might be if you do this in public. And so, that's the reality of who we are. And so, it's important to take stock on those things. How am I with the people that I'm closest to because those are the people that we tend to take for granted and those are the circumstances that we tend to be a little less guarded. [Aaron] Now that you're saying that, I'm thinking, it's actually probably infinitely less damaging to be that kind of person in public, when people they may be offended for the moment, but they're gonna forget your face in like eight seconds 'cause they don't live with you than the person that we literally spend hours and hours a day and our lifetime with: our children, our spouse. We sacrifice the main thing for the non-main thing. [Matt] Totally, and that's of course humanly speaking, in terms of the cost, over the long-term. [Aaron] Yeah, publicly. [Matt] But relative to the Lord's perspective on these relations, he wants it to be the same everywhere. [Aaron] Yeah. [Matt] He wants us to be loving and in the spirit everywhere with the people, especially close to us, but also with everybody else that we're interacting with. [Aaron] Or repentant if we're not. [Jennifer] Yeah, yeah, there is grace Right? [Aaron] Which changes us. [Matt] Well, you know what, you brought up the R word: repentance. And that is such an important word and such an abused word in our Christian religious world because repentance has a specific meaning. It's a word that has a definition. And we cut ourselves so much slack and we dip back into the same sins over and, how about this, just this sin we're talking about here where we're not being kind to our spouse, but we've got it for everybody else. And, oh, I'm sorry I shouldn't have done that. Please forgive me. And Lord, I was unkind to my wife, please forgive me. I should have been more kind. And then we go on our day, and then I do it again. And then I do it again. Have I repented if I just keep walking in that same sin? [Aaron] No, you've apologized. [Matt] I've apologized, right? [Aaron] You're sorry for being-- [Matt] Because to repent means I used to do that, and now I'm doing this. It means to turn from, that's the definition of the word. And it's such a good word for Christians, all of us, to really wrestle with, and say, you know what, have I really repented and forsaken that sin? Because that's what it means to walk as God would have us as a couple and not to just keep going back, over and over and over again. [Aaron] I think of this quote. I'm not gonna say who said it, but someone in our family used to say, "If you were sorry, you wouldn't have done it." That's kind of the idea; we say sorry over and over and over again. But in reality, our heart hasn't changed. We're just allowing something, whether we're intentionally doing something. We're not intentionally walking in the spirit, so therefore, we're defaulting to walking in the flesh, and we haven't repented of anything. This is something that I had to recognize in my life with certain sin in my life was I was sorry, but usually I was sorry for the shame or the regret or being caught or the remorse I see in your face or the pain I've caused you, Jennifer, but I'd never had been sorry for my sin which is what leads to repentance, and then I change and walk in that. So thanks for bringing that clarity. [Matt] Yeah, absolutely. And so to come full circle on your question, what does it mean to have a marriage that is reflecting the gospel? Well, if you have a marriage that is the kind of marriage that someone else is interested in, then you're not creating this incredible disconnect in the mind of the person that you're sharing the gospel with because what are you inviting them to? If the gospel hasn't affected and hasn't made your marriage beautiful, what are you inviting them to? Here we are married, and we have a bad, bickering, difficult, challenging marriage, and I'm out there telling somebody that Jesus loves them and died for them. It's so critical 'cause as we, and I know you guys have talked about on your podcast and certainly in your book, that your marriage is the gospel you're preaching, that is the gospel you're preaching. And the power of your message will not be one iota stronger or more influential than is the meaning and the love and the strength of your marriage relationship. [Jennifer] That's so good. I hope everyone hits rewind and just listens to that a few times. [Aaron] Yeah, and let's take marriage out of the picture, just in the Christian individual's life. If the gospel's not true in our life, so for me, when I was walking in my addiction to pornography, and I wasn't repentant of it, I thought I was, I was sorry for it; I was sorry for what it did to me, but I wasn't truly repentant of it. I could never tell someone that Christ came to bring freedom, which is what the Bible teaches us, that's the fruit of the gospel. [Matt] There you go. [Aaron] Because I couldn't walk in freedom. Like you said, I'm literally showing them, like, hey, here's God, he's awesome-- [Jennifer] He's powerless. [Aaron] He's powerless. [Jennifer] In my life. [Matt]right. [Aaron] He can't, and this isn't about just all of the sudden everything being healed and perfect and great, but this is definitely the truth of freedom from sin and death, which is what the Bible teaches, which is what Christ came to destroy. He took the power away from it. [Matt] Absolutely. [Aaron] But he doesn't have that in my life. Therefore, you should love God and believe in Jesus, but he can't actually do anything for the core of who you are. He can't change your physical situation or your spiritual situation, but, you know what, he's the thing you should believe in. It just doesn't make any sense. [Matt] No, it doesn't. We just need to remember that even if we're not saying anything, even if we're not on the street corner, preaching the gospel. We're preaching a sermon every time we walk out the door together. We're preaching a sermon. We're literally saying, this is what it means to be a Christian man and a Christian woman. Whether you mean to or not, you're preaching a sermon. The question is, what's the message that you're giving other people? [Jennifer] And how, can you explain, just for those people listening, how are they giving that message to other people? [Matt] It tends to be if you're living in a town and you've got your immediate circle and then you've got your circle of influence, the people you interact with, the people at the bank, the people at the gas station, the people at the grocery store, they know, over the course of time, they know whether you're a Christian or not. It just becomes evident that that is who you are. People probably don't realize it, but as somebody who identifies as a Christian, people watch you a little closer. They tend to want to just scrutinize you a little bit, or when we're at a restaurant. [Lisa] I was gonna say, what I was thinking about was how many times we've been in an airplane, traveling together, in a restaurant together, we have been stopped so many times by people we didn't even realize were watching us, someone who's serving us or the flight attendant, and said, you know, you two are just such a loving couple. And they could just see the way we were just interacting. And so people do notice that. And often times, especially at a restaurant, they'll see that we've prayed, so they also know that we're believers. And we've had a lot of opportunities to share the gospel with those people just even based on their observation of us. [Aaron] Well, it's uncommon. It's uncommon; it's normal to have cold relationships and being on the phones. It's uncommon to see engagement and true infatuation and adoration or-- [Lisa] Yeah, like the last time we were on a flight, we had a flight attendant come to us at the end of the flight, it was a long flight. And she said, "You know, the other flight attendants and I "were all talking about you two." Really? We're not that interesting. [Matt] Well, we were kissing, I mean. We were getting along kissing. [Lisa] That's right; that's right. And they were just observing how we were with each other, and how cute it was and thought we were maybe somewhat newly married. And I'm like, "Oh, no, we've been married 26 years, "and we have eight kids." Like, no way, yeah, really. [Aaron] And you're still in love? [Lisa] Yeah, yeah, it was really astonishing. [Matt] And you mentioned something about praying in a restaurant. And I know a lot of people listening probably do. It's probably less common these days than it has been in the past, but a lot of people still bow their heads and pray in a restaurant. Personally, I love doing that. I love just the witness: I'm a Christian, and I'm gonna give God thanks for this food. So I like doing that. But if you're somebody out there who does that, can I just encourage you to leave a fat, hog tip? Okay, because-- [Lisa] It's like a bonus. [Aaron] It is a bonus. [Matt] Because you've literally hoisted your flag at the table, I'm a Christian, and so, leave a great taste in your waiter's or server's mouth. [Aaron] It's a little sacrifice. [Matt] It's so small, yeah, so small. So small, but it's a good testimony, too. Just to say, you know what, love the Lord, and oh, by the way, God bless you. [Aaron] Going back to the, I think that's a great little bit of advice of how to spread the love of God. Like, hey, we love God and we just wanted to bless you, thank you-- [Matt] And certainly if it's a place that you go back more than once. [Jennifer] Yeah, that's true. [Aaron] Oh yeah! [Matt] You have struck up, well you've created an opportunity to strike up a conversation with the person because they're, well, first of all, they're business people, right? They wanna make money. So they wanna serve you well, and it's just an opportunity, that's all. Just an opportunity, if you're going to pray, then by all means, please don't complain about the food. [Aaron] I was gonna say that actually. There's certain Christiany things that we do, maybe we were raised that way, and we just pray. We're Christians, we love God, we pray. But then, let's say we're bickering at the table, or we are being super rude to the waiters, or our kids are throwing food on the floor and silverware. That is a part of our witness. [Lisa] It is. [Aaron] How we are. And they're like, you did the thing that I thought you were gonna do. They're looking for us to fail. [Jennifer] To fail, right. [Aaron] Doesn't mean we're not gonna fail, but the majority of the time, our hearts should be aware of how we're being, which goes back to that marriage being your ministry. You guys had this awesome, oh, people noticed us, and they stopped us and said thank you. We've had the other side of it. And no one's actually confronted us and saw us fighting, but we've had people message us after the fact. We've mentioned this a few times. And like, "Hey, we saw you in the store. "I didn't stop and say hi, but just wanted to say hi." And they'd message us on Instagram. And then we were like, "Oh my gosh, I think we were, were we fighting?" [Jennifer] This was a long time ago; we've gotten better since then. This was a long time ago. [Aaron] It made us aware, man, like, well, A, we have a social media presence, but it doesn't matter if you do. Like if you're a Christian, there's people that know you. You have friends, you have neighbors, you have, and people that may not know you personally, they're gonna see you regularly in your small town, or big town, I guess, because you frequent the same places. What kind of fragrance as a couple and as Christians do we give in this world where we say one thing and act a different way? That's literally what hypocrisy is. We talk about this, actually, in this chapter. We talk about, we're gonna ask you a question in a second, another question, but it doesn't make any sense if we're trying to minister in other ways, and then in the home, there is no real ministry happening. And so, question for you guys is are marriages being a ministry, and being our first ministry, because it's our first one another, our closest neighbor, we always like to say is our spouse and then our kids and everyone else. Are there marriages that are exempt from this? Well, this husband, he's a minister, and he doesn't actually have time to be focused on his family. Or a wife that's doing this thing over here for God, and she doesn't have time to serve her home and children. Are there marriages that are exempt from this? Why or why not? [Lisa] I don't know that there are exemptions in that sense although Matt might want to address that, but what that's come to mind, I do have many women write me who are in a marriage situation where the spouse is not a believer or at least not walking with God. And I know that that's a greater challenge, and I wouldn't want to put undue burden on that couple, especially the one that's trying to be faithful, and the other is not walking that way. There has to be grace for that, and the one person has to, you know, scripture tells us to keep quiet and just keep shining the light of Christ in their home. But I also wouldn't want to feel like, oh, I can't minister to others now because my spouse is not walking in truth right now. [Matt] And the way I would look at that is the Bible teaches us what is normal and how we are to walk as normal Christians in this world. And when it comes to marriage, what's normal is the way Jesus loves the church, his bride. That's how we're supposed to love our bride. That's normal. And that instruction, love your wife as Christ loved the church, that's not a special instruction for somebody who happens to be in the public eye. That is an instruction for absolutely every Christian man, every man who stands up and says, I follow Lord; I have committed my life to Christ. I have repented of my sin, and I'm a Christian. Every man who has said that should have a wife who says, I'm the most cherished woman I know. And no man is exempt from that. And so, here's the thing, if a church lays claim to being full of godly men, then there's one thing you know for sure, it's full of cherished wives. You cannot have one without the other. You cannot be a godly man and not cherish your wife. And so in that sense, I would say nobody's exempt from this, but, of course, we live in a broken world with lots of relationships and circumstances, and people have struggled. And God has grace for those things. But in those circumstances, the person, whatever they are, wherever they fall on the spectrum, difficult and virtually sad and very challenging to not that bad, wherever they are in the spectrum, their job is to draw near to God and walk as closely to God as he wants them, as he desires them to, and to seek them in those circumstances. But I appreciate you bringing that up because there are lot of people, lots of wives, lots of husbands, a husband called us recently. His wife left, he's got, I think they've got five kids. One of the kids has Down's Syndrome, and the wife's just like, "I'm done." And she left, and he didn't want her to leave, he tried to love her right up through, for several years, up to point where she left. He himself has remained faithful and has a ministry even though she's left, so it's true, it's not that you don't have a ministry. It's just that God provides his standards and principles and requirements for Christian men, for Christian wives, and for marriage. And then sin comes in and everything else is an exception to the rule, but the rule is every man is to cherish his wife in the way Jesus Christ loves the church. [Aaron] So, I do appreciate Lisa that you brought that up, too, because I'm sure that we have people that listen, and one of the spouses is not walking, is not a believer, and we get, praise God, he gives provision for this in his word, in 1 Peter, he shows, it's funny because it's to the wife, it's almost like he knew that men were gonna be more prone to this, not being faithful, which is sad, but it's true. But even then I think, you're right, that it doesn't mean they can't have ministry outside of the home because their marriage isn't in order correctly faith wise, but that doesn't mean that their first ministry still isn't their spouse. Like you said, they still have a call, the wife or the husband, to serve and love their spouse the way the Bible has called them to, faithfully, whether they receive it or not, of course. And that's also, I don't wanna say qualifies, I don't know if that's the right word, but, it still prepares them to do ministry outside their home because it's in order. Instead of, I'm not going to love my husband or my wife like this because they're treating me this way, but I am gonna go love over here, that's not gonna produce the kind of fruit that God's looking for. But I did appreciate that. I think it's totally relevant to recognize that there are these non-ideal marriages. [Matt] You know, and one of the things that might be important to mention here is wherever you are on the spectrum: you have a spectacular marriage all the way to it's terrible. We tend to fall into this wrong thought process that goes something like this: you're walking in sin; therefore, I can't help being the way I am. [Lisa] Oh, now, that's a good point. [Matt] And the fact of the matter is is the way you act has nothing to do with my capacity as a believer to walk in holiness. [Lisa] Right, no that's-- [Matt] And we kinda cut ourselves a little slack there, don't we? 'Cause if you're a certain way, well then that gives me license to be another way in response-- [Aaron] Yeah, if you only respected me, I would treat you or love you as Christ loves the church. [Matt] That's right, and every one of us has the capacity according to the word of God to walk in holiness, irrespective of how our spouse is walking. Now we certainly make it easier, right? If we're walking in holiness for the other person. But, we can't blame our distance from God on how someone else has chosen to act. [Aaron] Amen. [Jennifer] Taking a look into your guys' marriage. You know, you've been married quite a while. So go back to the beginning. Was there a learning curve in your guys' relationship on how to love and respect each other and cherish each other in that? [Matt] OH, absolutely. I was the most loving husband in the world. The only problem-- [Aaron] That's a real laugh, by the way. [Matt] The only-- [Lisa] Revisionist history, I think that's what it's-- [Matt] The only problem with it is I was loving Lisa in the way that said love to me. [Lisa] Oh, that's true. [Matt] We'd like to tell the story, in fact, we tell it on our own podcast. We just have this crazy story where I literally am superman husband, okay? I am helping out with everything. [Lisa] It's our first year of marriage. [Matt] First year of marriage. I am helping out with everything. I am helping with, not the laundry, you wouldn't let me touch the laundry 'cause she said, nope, that's mine; I will do the laundry. Everything else, the vacuuming, folding the laundry. [Lisa] Cleaning the bathrooms. [Matt] Cleaning the bathrooms, everything else, the dishes, everything, I'm helping, I'm helping. I'm doing it all, and I'm thinking-- [Lisa] And I'm getting madder and madder and-- [Matt] And she's over in the kitchen. And there's the flames, you know, the ones coming out of her eyes, are visible from across the room, and I-- [Aaron] Although I have never seen Lisa angry before, so I couldn't-- [Lisa] Oh, I'm capable. [Matt] And I thought, what is wrong with this woman? You can't find five guys in the entire state of Oregon that do the things that I do with a willing heart, and I'm trying to bless you, you're just, there's nothing that will make you happy. You can't be blessed; I don't know what your problem is. And so, she just takes the towel, and she almost busts a dish on me as she sets the plate down on the counter. And then she takes the towel and throws it on the counter. [Lisa] Thank you. [Matt] And I'm going, what in the world. She turns to me, and she goes, "I just don't know why you don't love me." [Lisa] True story. [Aaron] What's happening? [Matt] And I'm going, okay, am I losing my mind here? And I'm going, you've gotta be kid, you've literally got to be kidding me. [Lisa] So my thinking is I can vacuum, I can clean the bathrooms, anybody can do that. But there's only one guy in my life that can take me out and spend some time with me and listen to my thoughts. [Aaron] Look in my eyes-- [Lisa] Yes! [Aaron] And talk to me. [Lisa] And so he could just feel my frustration over time. So, the more frustrated he would feel-- [Matt] I would try harder. [Lisa] The more he'd vacuum. [Matt] I'd do more! [Lisa] And I'm just like, put the stupid vacuum down. I just want to spend time with yo. [Matt] So I'm going, wow, that's easy. [Lisa] Yeah. [Matt] Who knew love was that easy? So in our case, it was just me taking the initiative to say, okay, we're gonna go out at such-and-such a day, and it didn't matter what it was. We'd go for a walk; we could go have a cup of coffee. And I mean, at any time you as a husband tell your wife, "Hey, I just wanna spend some time with you." You can turn one cup of coffee into an awesome date. You really can. [Lisa] It doesn't take much. [Matt] It doesn't take much. You talk about learning curve, absolutely we had to learn each other and what was important to you and what was important to me and this is so true in absolutely every area of marriage. For instance, we've given you the for instance in terms of the learning curve, but in terms of discovering what it is your spouse is interested in, what they like, what's important to them. There's a very, very interesting way of finding out. [Aaron] You ask. [Matt] You ask a question! Yeah, yeah, and it's such a great thing to do because you know what happens when I turn to you and I ask you a question about you. [Lisa] Yeah. [Matt] Who doesn't like talking about themselves? Who doesn't like being known and explored and discovered. Who doesn't like someone being interested in them. So that's what we do when we turn to our spouse and say, okay, I wanna ask you a question. I wanna ask you what are three things that I can do that would make you feel loved? So that's just the normal stuff of marriage. But you know what? And you can even take it right into the subject of sex. And you can say, what are things that you enjoy when we come together physically? What are some of those things? Because, you know what, we tend to love the other person with the things that we want. [Lisa] I think that sometimes people boil this down to love languages, which is interesting and helpful. But what we're talking about is so much more than a love language, for one thing, those things change over time. It depends when the season when we had four kids, five and under, the vacuum really helped a lot, and I had a, not that I still didn't want to go out, [Aaron] Right, in that season, that was much more loving. [Lisa] Yeah, it was loving; it did mean a lot. [Matt] And physical touch when we had five kids. What would the age's spread have been with our five kids? [Lisa] Yeah, six and under. [Matt] Five kids six and under. Physical touch was less important to her in those years. [Lisa] Imagine that. [Matt] You know? She's got kids. You got enough of that. [Jennifer] Her tank is full. [Matt] Yeah, I'm touching 24/7, exactly. Right, so it does change over time. [Lisa] So instead of thinking of it as big subjects of love language, think of it as who you are as a person and where are you at today, where are you at in this season, where are you at in your life right now. And that involves that continual seeking and pursuing and asking. [Jennifer] So continual even after 26 years. Like you guys are still asking? [Matt] Absolutely. [Aaron] You have gotten there yet? [Matt] Absolutely. [Aaron] You haven't gotten to the-- [Matt] No, we're seeking each other all the time. And you know what? [Jennifer] And it's fun, right? [Lisa] It is. [Matt] It is fun, absolutely fun. And the thing is, if you love the other person, it's not a burden to do it. You actually want to know where they're at. You wanna know where their heart is at. [Lisa] And I think it can even be in somewhat negative things like say, I notice something triggers Matt into a bad mood or just like a dark, you know. And it used to be, when we were younger, that would just like, oh, fine, if you're gonna be in a bad mood, then I'll just stay away from you. I'm not saying those things, but that was my basic attitude. And I feel like over the years, now, let's say something like that happens, which it does, then I can say, I noticed, like something happened, you know, we had a good start today, and then something kind of went sideways. You wanna tell me about that? Did something happen or did I say something? Not in a defensive way, but just really, we've had some really good conversations about that. He'd go, "You know, I wasn't aware of that." Sometimes even going back to your childhood. As a child, my mom treated me a certain way, so now whenever I hear this phrase, it takes me back to a time when I didn't feel cared for. [Aaron] Yeah. [Lisa] And you're thinking, oh, well, I didn't mean to [Aaron] I know how it feels. [Lisa] communicate that I didn't care for you. But I can see that that would translate to that. And now I know, and I can be more mindful of that. [Aaron] And lovingly. Just the loving hey, is everything okay? Not because you're bothered by it. [Lisa] Yes. [Aaron] But because you're concerned for it. [Lisa] Yes. [Aaron] Which then, I'm sure, Matt, you would experience. There's been times that I don't even know why I'm brooding. It just takes a moment to be checked on it. And then I'm like, oh, I actually don't know why I'm brooding right now; I actually do feel irritated. I don't know why. Which it totally could be a hormonal thing, it could be a something I ate, and maybe there's something spiritual going on that we need to be praying through, but that approach of not taking it personally because we do that. Why are you doing this around me? I was in a great mood, now you just brought me down. But rather, helper, but for each, an actual concern. Hey, is everything alright? That was a really good bit of advice. I think everyone listening is gonna be loving these tips because this is 26 years of you guys learning this. We're only 12 in, what is that? We're not even half. [Matt] It'll go quick; it'll go quick. [Aaron] We are halfway to the kids, though. [Matt] Oh, that's right. [Lisa] Yeah. [Matt] And you got started earlier than we did. [Aaron] We got started earlier, so we might bypass you So you guys'll [Matt] Outpace us, yeah, that's right. But then there's adoption, we can stay ahead of 'em. [Aaron] It's true, that's true. So I'm loving these tips. And it all plays back into this. Right now, you're talking about how you guys minister to each other. Loving each other, cultivating intimacy, the communication, the strong bond which allows us, then, it frees us to be more able to minister outside the home. Not that it can't happen, but when you guys are so connected, so close, there's more freedom, and less internal turmoil. [Matt] I might even say it a little differently. I would say what it does is it authenticates the message. [Aaron] That's perfect. [Matt] And you know, we see this principle, well not just principle, we see this exact teaching in the high priestly prayer that Jesus prays in John 17 where he's saying, their unity, let them be one as we are one, Jesus is praying. Let them, his followers, those who come to Christ, who come to a repentance and become the children of God. Let them be one as we are one that the world might believe that you have sent me. The unity that we have, the oneness that we have is the authentication of the message of Christ that he came from the Father. And so, that's so true in the church as a whole, and it's absolutely true in marriage. When we're walking in love, when we're walking in unity, when we're exuding that, where we go through life, it authenticates the message when we do speak the truth of the gospel to someone. [Lisa] And not just out there, but in our own homes, to our kids. [Matt] Oh, that's just so true. [Lisa] When your kids are little, you can kinda get away with it, or at least you think you are. [Aaron] We think we think we are. [Lisa] Believe me, as they get older, they'll tell the world what it's really like at home. They'll tell their friends. [Matt] They do. [Lisa] I'm just saying because it's reality. And the opposite is true, too, that if you are loving each other, it's a witness to them, it's an encouragement to them. Our kids all want to get married. They want to have that kind of marriage. And that's a huge blessing. One of the things that we recently asked one of our older daughters, who's in her twenties. I think it was a Father's Day thing. What do you like most about your dad? She said that, "He loves Mom so well." And it was such a beautiful testimony that yeah, they're watching, they know whether you have loved each other in those quiet moments. [Aaron] Well, when you think about it, almost everyone probably listening, when they look back and they think about their home and how they were raised, I'm sure a lot of them, being raised in Christian homes or not, maybe heard the Bible, but did they see it? Did they see the Bible; did they see the gospel? They don't remember what they ate. They don't remember all the places they've been. But they definitely remember how Mom and Dad were together. They definitely remember how Mom and Dad treated them. And that's where the ministry in our home comes in. 'Cause I've told Jennifer this. I said, Jennifer, all of these things that we have, Unveiled Wife, Husband Revolution, our podcast. I said all of that means absolutely nothing if my kids don't know the Lord. And so, not just our ministry to each other that we have a healthy marriage and that we're godly, and that we love each other and respect each other and honor each other and cherish each other and serve each other, but that my kids see it. And that they recognize what we're doing and why we're doing it, and that at the end of the day, they look back and they say thank you to us, not because of us alone, but because we were obedient. I want my kids to say that. I want my kids to say, "Mom and Dad loved each other. "I just know it; they loved me, and they showed me "who God was and they lived it every day. "They didn't just use their words." As James says, don't just be hearers only, but doers of the word. Are we just listening and not doing? Are we just telling and doing the opposite? The do what I say, not what I do? [Lisa] Right, right. [Matt] Do what I say, not what I do. It works every time, just not the way the parent thought it was going to work. [Aaron] Exactly and so I just, going back to that, that's what I want everyone listening to understand. The main purpose of this chapter in the book, is, and it's early on in the book, it's chapter five, and it's setting this idea of we could want to do lots of things for God, but God wants us to do what he's told us to do. And if we can't be faithful with the little thing, and the little thing is our children, our spouse, our home, this is a little picture of the world. If I can't minister to my wife and love her as Christ loves the church, I have no right going and loving a stranger like that. I could. [Matt] I think what we do is we tend to think like, I know what you're saying, as this is the little thing, so to do the big thing. I actually think that reality is kind of on its head. [Aaron] Okay. [Matt] I think the big thing we're doing is we're being faithful with our spouses, we're being faithful in discipling our children. And it's a great, big deal, and see-- [Aaron] Man, I heard that, yeah. [Matt] If the church had been teaching and focusing on that these past, what, I dunno, however many years. [Aaron] 60 or 70 years. [Matt] Would the church be in the state that it's in today with disintegrating families and churches filled with unfulfilled marriages and disappointments and divorce and all of those things. It's a great big deal. And if we're faithful here, God can entrust with ministry elsewhere. [Jennifer] In chapter 14 of the book, we talk about how what God sees as extraordinary is so different than what the world deems extraordinary. When we look at our own lives, it is that day-to-day, all those little choices of discipling our children, being faithful to one another, that is extraordinary because that is where God is working. [Aaron] Especially today, it's normal, you brought up the word normal, it's common, that's what it is, it's common in the world for there to be divorce and unfaithfulness and children who are rebellious and hate their parents. It is extraordinary and remarkable now even though it should be normal for a marriage to have love in it. [Matt] Well, that's just it. [Aaron] The gospel. [Matt] It is normal, biblical marriage to have a loving, close, wonderful, fulfilling, enjoyable, beautiful oneness in marriage. That is normal Christianity; that's normal marriage. The problem is, is we see what's common around us in the world, and we get used to what's common, and start thinking that that's normal, but it's not. If you have a biblical perspective, if you walk God's way, and your marriage reflects God's priorities and principles, then you're gonna have an awesome, wonderful, beautiful, loving, enjoyable marriage because that's what a normal Christian marriage really is. [Jennifer] And the power of God's testimony in your life is actually powerful. [Matt] Absolutely, right, exactly. [Aaron] Well, people can't argue with it. I mean, they can argue with anything. We were just talking about this. When you're around people that are walking a certain way, makes it easier to believe that you can too. That goes both ways. So when you see someone, and you're like man they're, like the stewardesses looking at you. They don't your whole story, but they know the story they just saw. You're not faking it when you're sitting in the aisle, whatever row you're in and like, oh we want everyone to see that we're perfect. We have this smile on because you can't fake it. [Matt] Yeah. [Aaron] Everyone fakes it, and no one falls for it. Like, oh-- [Jennifer] Maybe for a short flight, but not long one like you said. [Aaron] Yeah, the short flight's, but yeah. [Matt] That's right. [Aaron] And again, we keep going back to this. God's not interested in just us having a happy marriage and a healthy marriage. [Matt] No. [Aaron] For the sake of happy and healthy marriage. That's not an end game. [Matt] That's exactly right. [Aaron] It's the means to the end, like you said. It's what, what was the word you used? It verifies, no-- [Matt] Authenticates. [Aaron] It authenticates. [Matt] Yeah. [Aaron] What's sad and still is very powerful to realize is when we're not it doesn't make God the liar. It makes us the liar. [Matt] It reminds me or brings to mind that phrase. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power. 'Cause you look at it from a galloping horse at 100 yards, and it looks like Christianity. It looks like something that's related to God and related to the Bible. But then you get close and you see, well, no, actually. It's not real; it's not true, and that's when we see the disintegration in the next generation when the kids are like, I don't want any part of that. Again, you just can't hide that. And especially, you mentioned, Lisa, you said, yeah, you can't hide it, your kids will absolutely tell the story and we know of a family. The snapshot looks amazing, and nobody would know this, but their kids told us recently, oh yeah, our parents yell all the time. And you'd never know it, but the kids know it. And the kids are now talking; they're all older now. And now they're saying, oh, no, no, no, no. Parents yell all the time. So that's why it's gotta be true there because if you're out witnessing, if you're that parents, and it could be yelling or bickering or fighting or cheating on your taxes or any number of things, but if you're that parent, and in the gas stations, you're telling a guy, oh, hey, the Lord Jesus Christ died for you, and God loves you, and he wants you to have a relationship. The kid is sitting there going, "Are you kidding me?" it's so important that for the things that we say to be true about how we live. It's called not being a hypocrite, and your kids can figure it out at a very early age. [Aaron] All of this was so good. I'm encouraged; it makes me think about my marriage even though we're constantly working on it, I just think, man, I wanna-- Makes me think [Jennifer] Of the kids. [Aaron] Yeah, I wanna pursue you more. I want to constantly be doing that for the sake of our outward ministry and for the sake of our home, so thank you for these stories, the openness with us. We're gonna ask you our question that we're asking everyone. What is your definition of a marriage after God? [Lisa] I think that it's that ever growing a deeper love for each other. And it doesn't have to be perfect. I think sometimes we just go, well, it's perfect, so we throw our hands, or it's not perfect, so we throw our hands up. Instead of thinking, no, I'm gonna move forward in this. And I'm gonna grow in these areas. I can even think of things I have struggled with. Believe it or not, I do have a temper. And Matt has the ability, somehow, to press that button better than anybody else I know. [Matt] Well, I mean, just on a boring Saturday. I mean if there's nothing else to do. [Lisa] Press my buttons. So I'll find myself reacting to him, and I will stop myself literally mid-sentence and go, wait, it's like, yep, like okay. [Aaron] That's a good-- [Lisa] What I wanted say was. I didn't quite the first two seconds or minutes, however the situation was, wasn't right. But checking myself and going, okay, but that's not who I wanna be. That's how I was, but that's not who I wanna be anymore, so I wanna try again. And giving each other that grace to grow, but being determined to change and not say, this is not who I wanna be; I do want us to be loving close. [Matt] And for me, I think I would boil it down. I mean, that's a huge subject, right? And there's so many facets to it. But I would boil it down to this. The fundamental understanding that my marriage is what God is doing in the world. It's not what I'm doing in the world. It's not the thing that I have; I have a marriage. My marriage is what God is doing in the world. The Bible says what God has put together let no man put asunder. This is something God is doing, and so if you have that basic, fundamental faith about this relationship, it's a foundation and a starting point for moving forward. [Jennifer] Thank you guys so much for joining us today. This has just been, like Aaron said, incredible and inspiring. If people were inspired today and they want to follow you more, can you just remind them where they can find you? [Lisa] We have a podcast, Faithful Life. And we'd love to have you join us over there. And we also, both of us have a website. Matt has faithfulman.com, and I have club31women.com. [Matt] And then you're also on Instagram, club31women and faithfulman, on Instagram, so you can find us there as well. [Aaron] Everyone listening, definitely go follow them, they are golden. [Jennifer] If you like Marriage after God, and you like what we share, you're definitely gonna like them. [Aaron] We actually just steal all of our content from them and repurpose them. They have been integral in the growth and maturity in our life. And so, we appreciate you guys. [Jennifer] Thank you. [Aaron] And we thank you for not only sharing with our audience now, but for sharing with us over the last five years. [Lisa And Matt] We love you guys. [Aaron] That we've known you guys. So, we're gonna close out with a prayer. Jennifer's gonna pray and then, yeah. [Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for creating marriage with such a significant purpose of revealing to the world your divine love. Please help us to make choices that reflect your love in the way we love one another. May we choose to walk in obedience. Thank you for your word which instructs us and shows us how we should walk in obedience. Please continue to give us wisdom and strength as we choose to walk in the spirit and not our flesh. We pray we would make our marriage a priority. We pray we would gain deeper understanding of how our marriage is our first ministry, and the impact we have in each other's lives and in this world just by remaining faithful to your word. If our priorities are ever out of order, or if we are not unified, please help us to change our course. Constantly direct our hearts to align with yours. May our marriage always be in a place where you can use us as a symbol to point other to you, and may you be glorified. In Jesus' name, amen. [Aaron] Amen. [Matt] Amen. [Aaron] So, thank you all for listening today. I hope this blessed you guys. And as always, we want you guys to have a conversation about this. Go on a date, and discuss the things that we talked about today. We have, what is it, 11 more episodes in this series. 11 more interviews to come. They're gonna be awesome; please stay tuned. We look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageafterGod.com, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Ready to Positioning Your Business to Profit? Go to-->>> http://positioningtoprofit.com/Patty: Hey, hey Patty Dominguez here this episode number 12 of Her Legacy Podcast, we're talking about how to focus on self-care with the amazing Lisa Carpenter. Now I am fully admitting hand up like literally my right hand is up that in 2018. I was not very good about myself care and to be perfectly honest.I mean is there a way to be imperfectly honest but to be honest I was really falling short. I was head down focused on my work and focused on producing .producing. producing coming at it from a sense of as an entrepreneur as a sole business owner. Sometimes you have a tendency to just burn the midnight oil because you want to make things work in our business and so what happens as something has to give. And so in 2018 I have really put other things before my health and had some setbacks and as a result I was called out for it.And Lisa Carpenter did it. And so I so love how transparent she is how authentic she is and we talk about self- care in this episode. I'm really excited to share it with you because I think this is a topic that is so important. We're so focused on doing doing .doing that we forget or put on the backburner this concept of self-care. So stay with me because this episode's trunkful really great concepts and things that you're going to want to implement to your own life into your own everyday experience as you are producing.This is a great call to action to just stop and realize are you focusing enough on self-care? Well let's find out together in this Episode with Lisa Carpenter.Lisa Carpenter welcome to the Podcast. Thank you so much for being here.Lisa: Thank you so much for inviting me on. I am so excited to have this conversation with you.Patty: Well and it's almost like a carryover of a conversation that we had online. And as we were talking I'm like wait wait wait. This is so good.We want to make sure to to capture it so that's why we're on this podcast because my conversation with you was so rich was so I called you pleasantly intense. And I really meant it because you're so, it's this crazy combination of total zen. But I'm going to whip your ass into shape energy that is just amazing. So I want to get braggy about you. What do you believe is your superpower?Lisa: First of all thank you for that. I like to call myself a lovingly disruptive. Yeah. My superpower is that what you just asked me. I see. Sorry I was so marinating in what you just said there's now I need to fully receive that my super power. I can see the things that are holding people back and I know that sounds really really cliché but I work in terms of you know helping women really matter in their own lives.And I can hear the things that they're not saying. I can literally see and feel the things that they're not saying I know exactly where I need to take clients when I'm coaching with them. And for a long time I'm like doesn't everybody do this? Because being intuitive sounded like woo ooh right? I'm like a driven ambitious woman like many of my clients.So intuition sounded like really kind of a woo woo wish. But the truth is like that's what it is it's just a highly intuitive gift that I have to see people.Patty: That's awesome. So in the conversation that we had just of the offline conversation we were talking about the truth about entrepreneurship and we were just relating on many levels around this whole journey of when you're working for yourself and especially in the cases where you show passion about your work.We tend to work and work and work because we can be completely immersed in it, right? And so one of the things we said was like wow let's uncover the truth about the burnout the self-care issue or lack thereof and really the importance of beliefs and so all wrapped in one no pressure because this I think is such a huge topic that not enough people are talking about the ugly truth of it.Lisa: Right. So I know that you're working with a lot of Driven ambitious women as a mine and it's this kind of seeking our worthiness outside of ourselves. It say looking for something out of our accomplishments that we're unwilling to give ourselves so we think that we're going to find it out there so we keep doing the things we keep accomplishing the things we have this amazing drive but we never actually allow ourselves to get there.It makes sense to write like we're trying to get there but we never actually let ourselves get there. We just keep raising the bar higher and we raise the bar higher. So we never actually feel successful. We never actually feel fulfilled. So we just keep doing more which then leads to "Burnout" and you know the question that I asked my clients is you know what does it mean to slow down like what do you making all your accomplishments mean.If we took all of them away if we stripped everything away from you and it was just you. How would you matter in your own life? How would you feel fulfilled? What would bring you joy.Patty: Yeah that's a great question because you, high performing people were just wired for the next thing the next thing and if I'm interpreting it right it's like we're always bought the next thing instead of recognizing well what is the thing that brings us to the next thing. And why is the thing not enough in and of itself. Instead we're just pushing past the thing maybe a milestone that we achieve and then we roll up our sleeves and say OK so this is what's next and then we focus on that. And it's just hyper you know push for movement all the time and it's just.Lisa: Yeah.Patty: Always going you know what I mean?Lisa: What do we even want from the thing? Like what are we making that mean? Because usually when we set our sights on an accomplishment it's not really about the accomplishment it's about what we believe that accomplishment or how we believe that accomplishment will make us feel but then when we accomplished the thing we rarely allow ourselves to feel the way we wanted to feel. Typically high achievers go into all that still not good enough. I don't have enough or I should move onto the next thing like next next.We just like move through our lives ticking boxes but life isn't a box to be ticked. Like tick all the boxes and then you die like there needs to be some fun and enjoy. And are you really living your life or are you just trying to do your way through it. And you know women and men no I leave the guys out. We typically are trying to numb out all the things that we can't be with. Which is why we get into this hamster wheel of high achievement so to speak?Patty: So then the high achievement path that that we focus on is what we believe that fulfills us and yet I've heard you speak and seen some things that you've done. And yet you talk about the importance of belief. So that's where we're kind of headed right.So how does that play a part? The whole belief system,the truth about entrepreneurship the importance of belief as it relates to their own progression and success path if you will.Lisa: It's a really big question. So it's looking at again. What are you making those accomplishments mean. Did you grow up in a family where good grades, diplomas, degrees, whatever that you were rewarded for that? In which case you learned that that's how you're going to feel love that's how you belong.Right so you keep chasing those things not realizing that that way of feeling isn't outside of you it's inside, you. Right. No degree is going to make you feel like you belong if you don't belong to yourself. Does that make sense?Patty: Yeah it makes perfectly good sense. So let's go into this way. So what do you, because you say that you have this intuitive sense about really being able to read people so what is something that maybe you see that you can literally wish you could tap women on the shoulders that are high performing women and say hey there is a better way. What would that what would that suggestion be the theme?Lisa: OK. So most women who are high achievers that are you know chasing their goals and chasing their dreams and they love that. And I love it too. I've got my own goals and dreams and ambitions. But I was doing it to step over or because I couldn't actually be with myself meaning I wasn't connected with myself. I didn't know what made me happy if I wasn't working. I didn't know what brought me joy. I didn't know what made me matter.And I was really doing all the things trying to make myself feel worthy. But again I never allowed myself to feel good enough so didn't matter how many boxes I tick. How many things I achieved and it did lead to burnout. I was go, go, going all the time like I was a total human doing, right. Up at the gym at the crack of dawn and then I'd work till you know the sun went down and grab a couple of hours sleep raise my kids all the things and just keep going because I mean it means something about me.Look at me I can do all these things. It's very much on an unconscious level but it burnt me out. And until we can actually step back and say wait a minute like why am I so resistant to actually taking care of myself. What would make me matter if I didn't have these things? What is slowing down mean like for me when I thought about slowing down the immediate story that came up was well I'm not a lazy person.Patty: Right.Lisa: Lazy people slow down. I'm not a lazy person I'm driven not. I'm out here to you know take over the world. But that story that slowing down was lazy actually stopped me from like resting and playing and just enjoying my life right. Because then I felt guilty if I slowed down. So I had to unpack all these beliefs and I had to find my way back to.What does it really look like to take care of myself? And I've been in the you know health and wellness field for a very long time. So on the surface I was doing the things to take care of myself. I eat healthy I exercise and those who are contributing to my burnout because it was like how many more plates can I spin.Patty: Oh my God it was such a paradox so it's like the very thing. So you had good habits? So it's not like you were sitting right in front of a drive through eating fries all day. So the habits were this is so fascinating the habits were there. You were eating right doing the exercise. And I know I mean I have really phenomenal clients same thing.They're just like what is next... Perhaps they have those habits but that I'm not saying that their brands are but I can see how in spite of doing all that you can get burned out. So how do you kind of see the fork in the crossword and say OK wait a minute. Why I burned out.Lisa: Oh my goodness you know I wish there was a magic wand that I could wave on people and save them from themselves. But the truth is as a coach we can't help anybody until they're ready to help themselves. And I really believe as horrible as that sounds I think we all have our you know come to Jesus moment where we look around at our life and worry we realize what's not working for us. You know I've been a coach for many many years and when my come to Jesus moment kind of landed on me it took me out.It made me question everything about myself. And I didn't understand how I could be such an amazing coach. And then also not see that I was totally in the weeds with myself. I couldn't see how destructive I was being until I was forced to slow down. So every single person you know I guess it's looking at having the courage to look at your life and your business and say you know what is working here and what isn't working.Patty: It's great. That's great advice like taking inventory right.Lisa: Yeah. So to grow a business as CEOs in our business says we have to constantly be reflecting on what's working and what's not working in our business. We have to measure our tangible wins versus our intangible wins. And quite often the intangible wins matter more than the tangible wins in terms of moving us forward but how often are we actually stepping back in our lives and checking in with ourselves and seeing what's working.Like are we getting enough rest? Are we looking at our bodies as an afterthought? Are we forgetting to eat? So even though. Like I said I was exercising and eating healthy. I was doing too much. Overall there was way too much stress on my body. So when I went through my burnout I actually had to pull my exercise back which then made me feel lazy. I had to check my ego just because I can lift this much weight doesn't mean I should, Right, because my ego loves going into the gym and being the strong girl. I love being the anomaly.Right. High Achiever. So I had to check my home. I had to put things down. I had to let go of behaviors that weren't serving me so didn't mean like that I couldn't workout. It meant the workouts back pump the brakes a little bit get more sleep you know. Is the world going to stop turning if I miss a workout. No but I was living in such a place of being committed because its high achievers we love to be committed to our goals. There was no wiggle room for me. There was no grace. There was no patience. There was no empathy towards myself.There was no compassion but this was how I was showing up for my clients. But that's not how I was showing up for myself. So I had to take a really hard look at all the different elements of my life and business and really ask myself why I was being so hard on myself. Why was pushing so hard what I hoped to achieve? You know, what are you really trying to achieve here? He said because it's not about the thing you're looking to be loved you're looking to be accepted you're looking to be good enough.And when I stopped looking for somebody else to give me something that was not their responsibility to give me. That's when things changed for me. And that's what I look for in the women that I work with. I don't want them to take on another project and I get that they want to leave a legacy. But at the end of the day the people who love them and care about them they don't care about the legacy that they're leaving they care about the human being that's in front of them right now. The women that I'm working with I want them to be present in their lives. So it doesn't mean I'm going to turn them into some meditative Yogi.Right. Don't panic ladies. Right. Like it's not about taking your driving ambition back and shooting it. It's about adjusting the volume on your intensity so that you can be present in your life and you can fully enjoy what's available to you, right. Joy, Happiness, peace ease well-being.Patty: Hey there my Legacy Leader thank you so much for checking out today's show. We're about halfway done but I wanted to give you the opportunity to engage further as this episode incites some creativity in you if you're interested in leaving your all dents in the world leaving your legacy. That's what I call the business Trinity and as solopreneur.We are looking to create a sustainable business and what I have found is three distinct pillars to make it happen so I'm sharing that with you. Absolutely complimentary. Head on over to businesstrinity.com again businesstrinity.com. Grab that three part video series for yourself. It includes some downloadable in there and will walk away with clarity on where the opportunities are so that you can leave your legacy. Let's continue with the show.Patty: Well I was to say can you give us an example for a client maybe that you've worked with that was that high performer type you know super. A. And then where were they and how did you help them and obviously no names.Lisa: That is a great question. So a lot of the women that I work with come to me because they know they want to go to the next level in their life or their business, right. They know they want more and they know that they're getting in the way of them getting there and they know that their wellness specifically is getting in the way of them getting there. So this particular client she worked with me for well over a year before we got through all her mindset stuff so that she could start having a better relationship with her body.So she was crushing it in her business but she was treating her body like an afterthought. She didn't feel well, right. She was using sugar and caffeine to keep going. Like most high achieving women and she knew that in order to take her business to the level she wanted to go to that her body would actually not support her through the next stage of the journey. Right because the most successful leaders take a really really good care of themselves. But she did have a history of disordered eating when she was younger.She'd done all the diets right. The diet coaster which most women know of. She was done with the dieting though so she knew she didn't want to diet again. She wasn't against losing weight but she really just wanted to feel really amazing in her body because she knew if she felt amazing in her body that she would show up in her business as an even more powerful influential leader. So that's what we've done. And now she you know confidently makes her choices around food. It's no longer a power struggle. It's no longer a deprivation or diet.It's you know her making choices that really nurture her body because I like to look at entrepreneurship as we are athletes or athletes and as athletes we have to treat our bodies as like the number one vehicle. Right. Our priority in our lives so we can show up for the longevity and be resilient to be entrepreneurs. So that's what she's done now. It's pretty amazing to watch her her transformation like when a client reaches out to me and says I really like my body. It sounds really odd right but to actually feel at home in her body.It doesn't slower down now from going to conferences putting clothes on her body isn't this like stressful thing anymore. And it's been amazing to watch how her business has grown and changed just from stepping into that.Patty: That's great! So empowering for her on so many levels. And I would assume that the, the ripple effect of that when you think about like even are saying you know finding clothes to wear isn't that big of a deal. There's been about just the clothes in that moment but the ripple effect of what happens as a result of that just kind of letting go of that. It opens up so many other things. I mean it's clear that there's a correlation between finding peace there and the resources you're going to get which is everything that a high performer wants anyway.Lisa: Exactly. You know exactly. It's you know a lot of times we use our business as an excuse as to why we can't take care of ourselves. Right. But when we actually start to take care of ourselves and our we make our wellness matter or our emotional physical wellness matter.Our business grows because of that, because we have more energy because we're more rested because we know what we need to give ourselves so that we can show up as our best selves instead of running our day running ourselves ragged and then we get like the leftover bread crumbs of our lives. What's the point of that?Yeah when there's a saying that if you don't make time for health you'll have to make time for illness. Well most entrepreneurs we don't have time for illness. We've got stuff to do we've got like life to change. So we have to put ourselves first.Patty: So with that in mind what are about three tips that you would recommend for the high performing women listening to Her Legacy Podcasts of what she can do.?Lisa: That's really really good. Connect into the things that bring you joy. And if you don't know what those are. That's a bigger problem. But tap into the things that bring you joy and then don't judge them. Give yourself permission to enjoy them. Right. So for me things like being in my car sunroof open, music way too loud, like I'm 20 and I'm not.That brings me a lot of joy. Giving myself permission to you know take a bath in the middle of the day because that feels like totally indulgent but I've created my business so I can do that. That brings me joy. The fact that I can slow down, silly things for me you know like this is so funny right. The Wellness coach I totally get out watching cake big shows you know when they take a cake. Yeah and they turn it into like a dragon.Patty: Yeah.Lisa: I totally get caught on shows like that big bring me joy just watching other people be creative. So find the things that bring you joy and make sure you're incorporating them into your life not when you have time. But as a non-negotiable part of yourself care. Sleep sleep like I have not met a woman who's like oh I feel so rested says high achiever ever right.Rest is the biggest gift you can give yourself right. Stop making yourself feel guilty about taking a nap or lying down or reading a book. It's not self-indulgent harassed your body actually needs to rest to perform and know when you need to pump the brakes on other things. One of my old coaches says we're not creating oxygen here. Most of us are not creating oxygen nor are we going to create world peace or stop a war right.We we're doing work that matters. But the truth is most of us like nobody is going to die if we take a day off. Yet we treat our work like somebody is going to die. We take a day off take some time off and get some rest. That's huge and then simply making space for some sort of practice that allows you to nurture the relationship you have with yourself. So I'd love to say that things we love. We take care of. Are you really taking care of yourself. And what does that look like. It might look like eating healthier food not because you're trying to lose weight but because that is a loving nurturing thing to do for yourself. So any of us who are moms we don't say to our kids oh please eat junk food all day.We feed them healthy foods because we love them and we want them to thrive. So asking yourself what things do I need to give myself on a day to day basis that helped me thrive? It might be 10 minutes of quiet. It might be taking a walk but really having that go to list of things that you know are non-negotiable for you.Patty: It's so so good. So important. And I was just thinking I'm like so it's not weird that I take my improv class like I love itLisa: I love that you do that. I love that you do that right. Like get outside the things that are so rigid and controlled. Most high achievers.That's one of the things we struggle with perfectionism and control. So getting yourself into a position where you get to let go might be a dance class it could be improv but something that makes you uncomfortable because you literally have to just be present and enjoy the experience.Patty: And it's so crazy because I get this idea from a coach that I had a psych maybe three years ago. He said OK in the new year everyone has their New Year's resolutions that I'm going to do this I'm going to do that. How about doing something completely different.Right don't put any parameters on or whatever. Just do something that is so out of character for you to do. And I'm aware of an issue go and stager it that I'm an extrovert and I'm like What could it be and are my something really goofy that feel kind of auto body about doing it. So I did improv and I started doing and I love it so much. It's so stupid.The things the exercises that were just like completely kindergartener type of stuff you know but there's such joy in just letting go and the people that are in the class are just completely different all walks of life said. Who would have thought who would have thought something so simple that is an hour a week brings me so much joy. You know.Lisa: We have to get outside of ourselves.Patty: Totally.Lisa: Right. When we were eight years old we were not here for world domination who wanted to win a dodge ball. Maybe we wanted to have fun we had imaginations we wanted to play and we've forgotten these things. We've become so disconnected from our feelings for. And unless you're a cyborg you have emotions and emotions are powerful they helped to guide us and nobody is here to spend their life feeling like frustrated stressed out and overwhelmed Yeah.So we have to bring more fun back into it so I know it can sound like flighty and airy fairy but there's usually you know a significant amount of work that comes along with really digging into patterns. But it has to start with the willingness of looking at your life and saying while this isn't working for me I'm kind of miserable and I feel like I'm going to burn out or you know kill somebody, husband ,kid whatever. Right?Because it usually the emotion comes out some way that somebody will come to me and say you know what I need to talk I need to talk to you like I'm ready to do this work. I'm scared. Most of the women who come to me are terrified because it is such intimate work especially when we're talking about our relationships with our physical body and because it's not about the food. And that's how most women are programmed will just fix the food. No no we're not going to fix the food.I don't care about the food we're going to talk about what the food is a symptom of what your weight is a symptom of what the overdoing is a symptom of what the perfectionism and control is a symptom of. We're going to dig into that. It's terrifying work and it's absolutely transformational change how you show up in your life in your relationships in your business. Like who doesn't want to feel good.Patty: Yeah. It's as simple as that right at the end of the day the simplicity of it. And yet it's so complex to get there.Lisa: Right!Patty: You know because we make it complex.Lisa: We make it complex and we need. Well that's for you it's not for me or we look at all of our circumstances and we think you know I had a conversation with the woman the other day and she was telling me about all these things in her life and why she couldn't have these things. And I said are you telling me that your life your ability to have peace and joy and fulfillment in your life is dependent on the circumstances around you. You know silence.There are people. For anybody listening there are people living in war torn countries with not even like a third of what you have in your life who are living lives filled with joy and fulfillment and satisfaction. Your circumstances have jack shit to do with how you want to feel and what's available to you in any given moment. So we've got to stop being victims of our lives. We've got to stop chasing fulfillment outside of our bodies. We have to start giving ourselves what we actually need to thrive.Patty: Therefore. All right so we're going to turn the corner here. What is the definition of success? What does that mean to you?Lisa: This is a great question for me because this was something so success ironically. I've ticked a lot of boxes in my life. I was a box ticker. I never ever allowed myself to feel successful. And there came a point I remember I was coaching I had a group coaching program at the time and I realized that if I didn't claim success for myself it was never going to happen.And I was basing my success. Here's the thing. I ticked all these boxes but because the money in the bank wasn't where I wanted it to be I was not allowed to feel successful. So I wrote on my bathroom mirror. I am successful and every morning going to brush my teeth and every night when I brushed my teeth I would read that and I allowed myself to be successful because I'm alive operate on this planet. I get to be successful successful is a mindset. So what makes me successful? Every morning when I put my feet on the ground and show up well I'm successful.It's a feeling for me. It's a feeling. It starts from the inside out. It really has nothing to do with what I've accomplished anymore which is so even talking about own you feel so expansive and before success used to feel like a noose around my neck almost like something I was never ever going to get.Patty: Oh. That's so good. That's good. I was feeling that for sure. All right. Final question for you Lisa Carpenter after all is said and done. What do you want your legacy to be?Lisa: Oh my gosh that's an amazing question. It's really really simple. Every night when I put my head down on my pillow I ask myself if I impacted somebody's life today. So as far as I'm concerned I've already left a legacy because every single person I've touched who's experienced some sort of transformation from being in my company that is my legacy.Because the ripple effect of the work that I get to do is so profound. I don't know how other people define legacy. But for me it's just on a day to day basis it's not some fancy thing. It's you know when I finally leave this planet to people have really cool stuff to say about me and how it impacted their lives. That's my legacy.And you know I was thinking about my poor kids today. I don't know if we ever thought about this but our kids are growing up in a generation where they don't really know what it means to miss someone right. We have such a digital fingerprint when I long leave this planet.My kids will still be watching my videos and I'll write you my stuff and my coaching staff and their grandkids will be able to watch they're like my grandkids will be able to watch their grandmother when she was in her 40s doing her thing online. That's pretty amazing. So how I show up every single day and my business is already building my legacy. Somebody watch me 30 years from now 50 years from now and be like Wow that woman back in the year 2018. She was amazing.Patty: Yeah that's so great. That's such a great point right that we are literally by the very nature of being an entrepreneur in this day and age have the ability to leave that digital footprint that will far exceed the time that we're here.Lisa: Yeah.Patty: So great. So true.Lisa: It does make me question like how this is totally off topic but leave your listeners with food for thought on this. You know it's like how are my children going to grieve me. I have such a huge digital footprint. Like how do you learn to say goodbye to somebody so that's just a weird random thought for the end of the podcast. But you know that's what leaving a legacy all is about.Patty: That's it. Yeah that's what it is. And when you said that immediately what came to mind is when way Wayne Dyer died. His children had they wrote the letter announcing that he had passed and they were just saying it was his time to move on. And then the legacy that he leaves with all the books that he's written and the content is just like they continue to honor him by making sure that that information's out there because it's so impactful you know so I imagine it would be something similar.Great news everything that you do you're really creating assets. And I always say that it's like everything that we are doing as entrepreneurs in the digital age. It's all these little breadcrumbs assets that we have out there that is just going to leave. It is just about leaving a legacy.Lisa: Right. So it's we have to start looking at legacy being this like thing outside of us again.Patty: Yeah.Lisa: Who are you being today? What have you already created that is leaving a legacy. This isn't something that you have to pursue. It's already where you're doing it. Like if you're an entrepreneur and you're showing up and you're putting yourself out there you're building that legacy.Patty: Yeah.Lisa: There isn't more to do. Just keep being you doing you sharing your gifts impacting the world the way you want to. You're building your legacy. Stop believing that you're not having a big enough impact because you are.Patty: Exactly. So to see how I think we saw a carpenter so pleasantly intense. I mean this is exactly what I'm talking about. It was hugely people spinning because after we had our comment Oh my God my head is spinning and just like food for thought with everything that you say. So with that I know people will want to get a hold of you to connect with you to see how they could potentially work with you. What is the best way to do that?Lisa: I would love that. So I regularly hang out on Instagram. I do Instagram stories sometimes with filters sometimes without. I reserve the right to filter myself some mornings although I try and keep it real right.Patty: And I think that's awesome.Lisa: Some days actually to say you know what I need to not filter because I'm getting addicted to the filters on Instagram. So Instagram stories is a great place to catch me you can always DM me there follow me there or head over to my Web site at lisacarpenter.ca and you can put in an application to work with me and if you're good fit then let's do this.Patty: Awesome. Lisa I thank you so much for sharing your gifts your insights your expertise the guidance that you bring and the legacy that you're leaving.Lisa: Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate you. I'm so grateful we've gotten to know each other and I'm sure we're going to have much many many more intense conversations destructive conversations in the future.Patty: That sounds great.Lisa Carpenter (lisa@lisacarpenter.ca),Website: www.lisacarpenter.ca,Social Media Handles: https://www.facebook.com/lisacarpenterinc/https://www.instagram.com/lisacarpenterinc/

Tiny Farms CEO and co-founder Andrew Brentano thinks cricket protein will ensure future food security. Tiny Farms is an AgTech and Precision Farming company that produces food grade cricket protein for use in pet food and animal feed applications offering a sustainable, safe, reliable protein source for pets, livestock animals, and people.Transcript:Lisa:This is Method To The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host Lisa Kiefer. Today, I'm speaking with Andrew Brentano, the Co-Founder and CEO of tiny farms. Welcome to the program, Andrew.Andrew:Oh, thank you.Lisa:You are the perfect guest for a show about innovation. Co-Founder of Tiny Farms. First of all, tell us what Tiny Farms does, and what is the problem you're trying to solve.Andrew:We are basically, precision ag company. What we're doing, is we're trying to grow a whole lot of crickets. The big problem we're addressing is that we basically cannot produce enough animal protein to keep up with the demand. We've got growing population, growing per capita consumption and also a really huge growing pet food market, which is consuming a huge amount of meat. Traditional meat consumption, your livestock, your pigs, your chickens and your cows, is a hugely resource-intensive endeavor.You're concentrating huge amounts of feed, 25 30% of all the crop lands on earth are just growing feed for animals. Then we're also grazing about 25% of the earth's surface for cattle. There's really not any room to expand. We really have to find these higher efficiency ways to supply that animal protein that people need.Lisa:You have found, what I think is a pretty unique niche in this market of cricket farming, protein farming. I know the argument about cattle using energy and all of that, but what you're saying is that dogs, chickens, all of these other animals. If we can feed those animals your product, we can make equivalent savings, maybe?Andrew:Yeah. We can offset these huge resource environmental footprints. If we take the pet food example, in the US, we're feeding about 30 billion pounds or more of meat just to dogs and cats every year. That market is growing like 6% year over year. If we can, instead produce crickets, which use just a tiny fraction of the food and the water and the space required, we can essentially get more from less. We can meet this demand without just completely overextending our current resources.Lisa:Okay. When did you start this company?Andrew:We started in late 2012. We initially got the idea ... of course it took a while for markets to actually developed. We were a little bit ahead of the curve. We've been-Lisa:Do you mind if I ask how you came to this? Were you doing market analysis studies or looking at big data? How did you figure out that this was a niche?Andrew :In that moment, what we were doing was really just thinking about big existential problems. We were trying to decide what should we be spending our time and energy on and had really started drilling into food production. Everyone's got to eat. It's the largest and most resource-intensive endeavor that humans do on this planet and also one of the most immediately going to be effected by climate change, population growth, et cetera. What we realized when we were diving in was that meat production was this huge concentration of where all the resources were going, It was the most inefficient place and also the highest demand. Everyone wants to eat meat. We thought, wow, this is-Lisa:Yes. Especially with incomes going up.Andrew:Exactly.Lisa:First thing they want to do is have the steak that you and I have.Andrew :Exactly.Lisa:Right?Andrew:This westernization of diets around the globe, all these trends were pointing to essentially meat crunch in really the relatively near future. People need this protein, but how do we produce protein more efficiently but that still has a high-quality nutritional profile? We're looking at agriculture. We were looking at algae and fungus. Then we came across a body of research about insects and their nutritional values and their production efficiencies, historical uses around the world, and it just made so much sense.Lisa:Who's using crickets? I assume some of these countries have been using crickets for thousands of years, is that correct?Andrew:Yeah. Particularly in Oaxaca, in Mexico and some other Central American cultures. There are long traditions of eating crickets and grasshoppers, both interchangeably. A number of African cultures also like different types of crickets that are native, crickets and katydids. Then in Thailand, more recently, I think there's been a long tradition of eating different insects. Very recently, there's been quite a growth in, particularly the cricket market there. The Thai government has even, for the last 10, 20 years been sponsoring and promoting this. There's now tens of thousands of small backyard cricket farms supporting those largely street markets.Lisa:How did you start? Were you right out of college, or what was your motivation here?Andrew:I guess, I was about two and a half years out of college. I went to University of British Columbia, studied absolutely unrelated to agriculture, a program called cognitive systems. It was AI information systems, linguistics. What that did instill was this mindset of systems thinking. I'd worked an AI startup. My Co-Founder Jenna, who's now is my wife, had been working for an artist. She went to Rhode Island School of Design. She was managing an artist business in LA. We'd been living in LA for a couple of years and decided this wasn't fulfilling. This wasn't really where we wanted to be or what we wanted to be doing.That was where we took a summer, went and started doing freelance web development just to pay the bills and took this time to decide what are we going to do with our lives that's can be meaningful. That's what led us into this. It was important that, you we found something that we could do that would apply our creativity and actually be meaningful. HLisa:You know how we're all about organic and sustainable. How does that fit into the cricket industry? What do they eat? How do you follow the path to make sure they're sustainable and that they're organic?Andrew:Yeah. The great thing about crickets is they'll eat anything, pretty much. I mean, they're basically omnivorous. Anything you could feed a pig, or a chicken, or a cow, or basically any other kind of animal, they can eat. They really have a very high, what's called feed conversion ratio, which is basically the amount of food they have to eat to grow a certain weight as a ratio. With crickets, it's about 1.7:2 pounds of food to get 1 pound of cricket. To give comparison, chickens are more like 3:1. Pigs are between 4 and 6:1. Cows can range from 8:20:1, depending on what the diets are. Even if you fed them the exact same thing you fed a commercial chicken, you're using much less of that feed.You've got this corresponding, way much smaller land and water footprint. Then because they are so efficient converting that feed and they'll eat anything, we can then take food by-product streams and agricultural by-product streams and incorporate that into the feed formula. That can range anything from stale bread, which commercial bakeries, large scale ones are producing millions of pounds of stale bread or excess bread. They essentially overproduce by about two what they actually sell. Then we can also go to agricultural processing. There are huge streams of by-products, like dried distiller grains that come out of ethanol production, spent brewer's grain, juice pulp from the citrus industry.Lisa:The wine industry.Andrew:The wine industry. Exactly. Almond holes are huge one in the United States, or in California alone, we're producing 150 million tons of almond holes every year.Lisa:They're kind of like goats in the insect world.Andrew:Yeah.Lisa:They'll clean everything up.Andrew:Right. All we have to do is balance the different inputs, so we get the nutritional profile that grows the cricket efficiently We understand that pretty well. We can basically say, okay, we'll take 20% of this, 30% of that, 50% of that, blended altogether, and then we can just grow our crickets.Lisa:You been able to notice differences in tastes of your crickets by what you're feeding them?Andrew:One of the reasons crickets are so good, is they have a pretty mild and generally pleasant taste regardless what you feed them. You definitely can tell different things. You'll get either a nuttier cricket. Sometimes it'll be because the cricket is a little fatty or a little leaner.Lisa:What would you feed it to make it fatty?Andrew:You could feed it, for one, more fat or a higher carb diet. You can make it leaner by having more of a protein and fiber formulation. We've fed them carrots in the past and they turn just a tiny hue, more orange. They actually pick up a tiny bit of that sweeter carrot taste.Lisa:Do you ever feed them chocolate?Andrew :We've never fed them chocolate. It's a bit expensive.Lisa:How do your vegetarian or vegan customers feel about this product? Do they have any concerns?Andrew:There's two camps. There's one camp where folks are vegetarian and vegan primarily because of sustainability issues, humane treatment of animals, ethical issues. Those are exactly the issues that we're targeting and trying to address with cricket production. Those folks are generally very, very receptive to incorporating insect protein into their own diets. What's really exciting for these people is when we say, yeah, did you know there's dog and cat food you can get with insect protein? You've got vegetarians and vegans, but they still have a pet cat that they have to feed meat too.It creates a real dissonance for them. It's an amazing solution for those folks. Then there's folks that maybe have a religious or spiritual aversion to actually eating living animals. For those folks, that's fine. That's a different set of issues. Insects are living things, and if they decide that's not what they want to eat, it's not the product for them. We generally think that we have a great solution for the folks that really see the fundamental environmental and ethical issues around meat production.Lisa:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method To The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today, we're speaking with Andrew Brentano, the Co-Founder and CEO of Tiny Farms. Tiny Farms is building the infrastructure for a new category of our food system, cricket protein, one that will play a big part in ensuring future food security. Talking about your products, and you just covered one, which is feeding pets. What other products do you have, and who are your customers?Andrew:Our core business is the design and development of a high-efficiency cricket production facility. That's really the big problem. We want to get crickets out into the market, but how do you do that? How do you produce enough crickets cheap enough that it can actually become this bulk commodity that could reasonably offset traditional meats. In a way, our core product is actually this method for producing them and then also how do you process them into palatable ingredient.Lisa:I read that your method was unique in that it avoids the monoculture of most agriculture.Andrew:Yeah. One of the fundamental problems that we see in traditional livestock production, farming in general, is that you have these huge centralized productions, whether it's, say 10 thousand acres of soy beans or if it's a mile-long chicken house with 4 million chickens in it. When you think about ecosystems and biology, that's a really unhealthy ecosystem. Also, it's incredibly risky because if something comes in there that's a blight, or past, or a disease [ 00:10:48], it just can, wipe out everything very quickly.The approach that we take is a more distributed model where we'll set up smaller production units, and then we'll put them around in a cluster, in a region. That way, you never have this just huge, enormous centralized population issues of just having a lot of animals in place, breathing and pooping and eating and all of that mess and the potential for pollution. Also, that you significantly reduce this biological risk.Lisa:Crickets get disease and die out like other ...Andrew:We've been lucky. We've never had a blight. We have a very tightly controlled environment, keep the biosecurity levels pretty high. There have been, in actually a different species of cricket than when we grow, there is a disease. It only affects crickets. There's no risk to any people or animals but that have gone around and wiped out some of the cricket farms that have existed in the US. One of the cool things about insects, again, too, is that biologically they're so different from people that you don't have the same zoonotic transfer of diseases the way that you've got your swine flu or your bird flu, which can jump to humans. It's this huge health risk.Every animal has diseases and parasites that can affect them. The cricket is so different. Its life cycle's so different. They don't carry that kind of disease that could jump to a human. It's much safer. Even with a mosquito or a tick, they're transmitting a disease, because they're actually holding some like human blood, Mammalian blood in them. It's not that that animal itself actually gets a disease that can transfer to a human.Lisa:You have a cricket powder, but that's primarily for feeding animals. Does it also go into human-Andrew:We produce this cricket protein powder. It's completely food grade. It's completely perfect to use in human food products or pet food products. We focus on the pet food market, because we see a really, really big opportunity to offset a lot more of the consumption in that space. There are a ton of human food products out on the market, and a bunch of being produced right here in the Bay Area. Chips and snack foods and energy bars and baking flour mixes and stuff that-Lisa:With cricket powder.Andrew:With cricket flour. Yeah. Exactly. In that market, it's awesome. It's a really great way to start introducing to people this idea that they can eat crickets. Long-term, the best possible thing is we stop eating animals as much and we eat much more insect protein. Put it in something that people want to eat anyways, crunchy, healthy snacks.To really have the big impact we want to have, we have to figure out how we can start really replacing the meat that we're using as quickly as possible and as big of volume as possible. That's where we're really focusing on the pet angle. There's actually another company here in Berkeley called Jiminy's. They've released a line of dog treats. The only animal protein in that dog treat is cricket protein. Dogs love this stuff.Lisa:You don't have any retail human products yourself as a company.Andrew:We do supply another brand that is currently distributed at the Oakland Days Coliseum and it's called Oaktown Crickets. In the cricket production, get more into how that works. You harvest most of the crickets at a certain stage in their life when they've got the optimal protein content to make into the protein powder. Then you maintain a chunk of your population to go through adulthood and breed your next generation. Those breeders, we call them, they've got a higher fat content because they're, particular the females, are full of eggs. They're really, really tasty.In Thailand, those are the prized ones that people want. They'll fry them up and sell them in the market. For the protein powder application, they're not very useful. What we do is, those get sold for culinary use. We had local chefs use them in different specials, and then they're being fried and seasoned and packaged in little snack packs and distributed at the Colosseum. [crosstalk] Extra tasty.Lisa:One of your main goals is to address the challenges that are facing agriculture, what we just talked about. Are there any other challenges that you've experienced as you enter this marketplace?Andrew:One of the big fundamental things about how the agricultural system is set up is it's very linear. You extract resources, you dig up phosphorous, you create nitrates and nitrites for fertilizers. You pour them on the fields, you grow these plants, you harvest them out, you process them. You throw away the byproducts. Then you feed the animals, and the animals create a huge amount of poop. You don't know what to do with that. It just sits there. Then the animals get eaten. It's this very just linear extractive system of production.That's part of why we're having so many issues with soil degradation and waterway pollution. We're also just running out of phosphorus, which is its whole own problem. What we really see is an opportunity for insects is to help start close some of these loops and create more of a circular system. If you've got your wheat industry and it creates all of this chaff when you process the wheat into flour ... well if you can efficiently convert that, instead of just say composting it or throwing it out there or using it more inefficiently to feed dairy cow, you can turn that into a really high-quality protein, putting that through the base of the cricket as a bio converter.We've spent the same amount of nutrients and water to produce all parts of that plant. If you only eat a little bit of it, that's not very helpful. Then the cool thing about the crickets is, the waste they produce is completely dry and stable. They're not releasing-Lisa:The cricket poop.Andrew:The cricket poop.Lisa:What is it called?Andrew:It's called frass. That's the technical term for insect poops. It's basically the consistency of sand. If you go by Harris ranch or the big feed lots, and they're just-Lisa:Hold your nose.Andrew:Exactly. Producing huge amounts of nitrous oxide and methane and ammonia. These are greenhouse gas emissions that are many, many times more potent than CO2. Instead, you've got this very, stable, safe product that can be applied directly as soil. It's actually produced dry. You can cost effectively transport it. You-Lisa:And amend your soil with it.Andrew:Exactly. Yeah. You can take it back to the source of production, or you can put out into gardens, community gardens, home gardens, anywhere. The frass, which is our by-product, we've just recently gone through the approval process with the California Department of Agriculture to sell that as a retail fertilizer. We now have one pound and five pound bags of that.Lisa:Where could I find that?Andrew:We've just listed on Amazon, and we're starting to starting in the Berkeley area. We're getting it out to some of the local gardens stores. We're hoping that we'll have a chance to really take on a life of its own. Besides that, we're also able to sell that wholesale to bigger garden and farming operations in the area.Lisa:How did you find the funding to start all these operations?Andrew:Definitely, financing is the least fun and hardest part of starting a business. We were able to bootstrap the first several years. We were just actually building websites on the side while the initial pieces came together. Then when we realized that we really understood what the business model was going to be and what the growth plan was, we were able to go out and convince a handful of angel investors to come in and put enough money that we were able to launch our first R&D farm down in San Leandro.That was really just a process of getting out there, both going to pitch events, networking, going to basically the places where the kind of people are who care about sustainability and the food system, who understood the issues. Actually, a number of our investors found us, which was great. We had enough of a presence on social media and had been featured at a few events that they said, "Hey, I really believe in what you're doing." They understood why, and they knew it was going to be a long road to get there.They were very supportive. Then, from there, once you've got initial traction, then as you need more funding, you go out, find ways of getting in front of the right people and being able to tell that story and show how the payoff is going to happen down the road.Lisa:Everybody's pretty aware. It's a huge problem.Andrew:It's amazing how the awareness and focus changed from 2012 to now, because when we started and we're going out there saying, hey, insect protein is this amazing solution. People just raised eyebrows. Now, we go out there and people say, "Yeah, we know, but how are you going to implement it?" Which is much better conversation, because we actually get right into the meat of what we're doing and how we're solving the problem. We don't have to worry about spending half an hour just convincing someone that they should even take us seriously.Lisa:Who are your major competitors?Andrew:The industry is so new, The demand for the product keeps growing at a rate that, essentially, we're not able to directly compete, because we're all just trying to keep up with the scaling of demand. There's a farm down in Austin, Texas, which has gotten some great funding and done some cool stuff, building their operation. There's a big operation up in Ontario, Canada that's been one of the major suppliers in North America.Lisa:Internationally?Andrew:They're a good number of companies in Thailand and Southeast Asia, starting to be a little more presence in Mexico. When we think about it, for us to saturate this market, they're going to have to be thousands of cricket farms, right? We have this concept of a benign competition. When they have a win, that's good for us, because we're growing this opportunity together. It's much less cut throat than you find in more matured and saturated markets.Lisa:There's room to grow in it. Yeah. For sure.Andrew:Huge, huge opportunity.Lisa:Have you had any negative response?Andrew:Certainly. Particularly early on, you got a lot of ew, yuck. What are you doing? What's great about people, is that we really quickly get used to ideas. The same folks we would talk to six years ago and say, "Hey, we think you should try eating crickets." They'd say basically, "No way in hell would I do that." My test is based. I'm sitting on an airplane and the person next to me says, "Hey, what do you do?" How does that conversation go? Six years ago, went one way. Now, Lyft drivers or just folks out of the coffee shop I say, "Hey, we do cricket protein." Almost immediately, people now start telling me why it's a good idea. I mean, it's amazing how the public perception has shifted. I think it's really just a consequence of exposure.Lisa:If you can find a tasty way to get protein and not have to pay what you pay for meat ...Andrew:The market's so young. It's still a pretty premium product. The price point is similar to that of an equivalent meat product. So like the cricket protein powder is basically a dried ... It's 60% protein, 20% fat. It's this really nutrient dense product. It costs similarly as if you bought meat and dehydrated it. What that would cost, 15 to $20 a pound, which seems like a lot. Then you think you're reducing that down. You can get your fresh crickets. The costs of production is similar to your higher-end meat now. What's great is that's with really barely any R&D that's been done over the last few years.Lisa:Barely anybody in the marketplace.Andrew:Barely anyone in the marketplace. You think about what the price of chicken and beef is right now. That's the result of 50 years and trillions of dollars. Our industry, with five years and a few million dollars of development, is already getting competitive with meat. In the next few years, it's just going to soar below that, which is great. Up until very recently, there'd never been really any indication of actual opposition to the idea. It was just niche enough. No one was really worried about it. We did interestingly have the first high-profile shot across the bow.What happened was, late in July when the Senate was starting to go through their appropriations bill process, Senator Jeff Flake actually introduced a amendment that would specifically ban federal funding for research projects around insects for food use. This really caught us all off guard, what seemed to come out of absolutely nowhere.It was very strange and essentially someone had brought to the senator's attention that a handful of small innovation grants had gone out from the USDA to companies that were developing food products with insect protein. It's not the kind of thing that someone like Jeff Flake would just pick up. Someone out there suddenly cared enough to bring that to his attention. We don't really know exactly what went on there.Lisa:You don't know what went on.Andrew:Not yet. Yeah. We have an industry group. There's over 90 companies in the United States, Almost every state, there are companies working with insect protein, whether it's for pet food or animal feed or for human food, both on the production side and the product side. This is actually an amazing opportunity for American economic growth, American leadership. It's very surprising that something would come along like this that you would want to block federal research funding. Specifically, it's the small business innovation research grants that were being referenced. We've received some of the same grants as well.Lisa:Was that this year?Andrew:This was just a few months ago. Now, very luckily, that amendment was not accepted into the final version of the appropriations bill. We realize like, oh, there are people that care enough to start throwing up some roadblocks. That's actually a good sign for us that we're being taken seriously in that way.Lisa:That's a positive way to look at it.Andrew:For us, anytime that we have a conversation with someone and I convinced someone that they should take this seriously or they should go to A's game and buy a pack of crickets or they should go to the pet store and get some Jiminy's treats that they can feed their dog. That's a huge win for me.Lisa:Yeah.Andrew:Every time I'd ride in a Lyft or sit on an airplane, that's an opportunity. Yeah. I mean, there's already been this level of engagement, which is great.Lisa:I wanted to ask you about other projects. One of them I'm intrigued with is the Open Bug Farm.Andrew:In a earlier stage of our business development, we actually developed an open source mealworm farming kit, basically for people at home who are interested in this. The could either buy the kit from us or the designs were online. It was all off-the-shelf components, so they can make it themselves.Lisa:Like having chickens in your backyard.Andrew:That was the same kind of idea.Lisa:Instead, it's crickets.Andrew :Exactly how we were modeling it. In fact, a lot of the people who were interested in that, wanted to grow the mealworms to feed their chickens. That project didn't end up being really good business model for us. We didn't keep selling the kits, but we kept the designs for it out there. What was really great was around that project, we just launched a forum and a huge number of people came to that forum and asked questions and provided expertise. We were able to share some of our expertise on the topic.Now, there's this huge information resource that just has tons and tons of discussion about raising different kinds of insects at different scales, from commercial to home scale. We're really happy that exists out there. We get a lot of inquiries from people that say, "Hey, I just want to start growing some crickets for myself or some meal worms" or whatever it is. We don't have time to help every one of those people individually. We're able to say, "Hey, go over to the forum here, because there's just this huge drove information."Lisa:What do you see in the future?Andrew:Looking at the future, there's just so much room for growth. For us, the key thing is just get more commercial cricket farms built over the next years. Get the production ramped up, instead of just being able to have niche premium pet treats on the market. There can be full-diet pet foods and then maybe even your mainstream pet foods. If the Walmart brand of dog food could have even 5% cricket protein instead of meat, we'd be saving millions and millions of pounds of meat, hundreds of millions of gallons of water. It's all just about being able to grow the production volume to be able to meet those demands.For us, the path to doing that is not just building cricket farms ourselves but to be able to take the facility that we've designed and package that into a turnkey product that we could then license out to a production partner. Because we got a lot of inbound inquiry from folks that say, "Hey, I would love to start a cricket farm, but I don't really know how." There's great opportunity to leverage that and provide a ready-made solution where you can say, "Well, here's the setup and here's the training. We can provide the technical support." Then you can grow these crickets, and then we can help you process that into the protein powder that we can get out to the market."That's really the longer term growth strategy, is being able to engage with all these partners. Over the last several years, we've had hundreds and hundreds of people contact us, say, "I'm a dairy farmer, but I want to get into crickets." A lot of folks with agricultural backgrounds, maybe they grew up on a farm, but their parent's farm isn't quite big enough to support them coming back to work on the farm. They say, "Hey, maybe I could throw up an outbuilding and we could have a cricket farm there."There's a huge amount of opportunity for people that essentially have cricket production as their own business and be able to feed into the supply chain where we can have this huge impact offsetting meat. Fundamentally, what we are after is really converting, like I mentioned, this linear extractive food production system into a circular sustainable food production system. Right now, we're just so overextended on our demands, on the very limited resources that we have available in terms of water and soil and arable lands and even just nutrients available to grow crops.We're going to stop being able to produce food. When we talk to folks in the chicken industry or the beef industry, they're actually all very interested in the potential for the insect protein in the feed for their animals. Because all these animals are not just eating plant-based proteins. Almost all the animal feeds out there also have some amount of fishmeal in them, which supplements key amino acids and fats that you don't find produced in plants. Fishmeal production is a really shocking industry. We basically send out ships that scoop up indiscriminately, all the small fish. Particularly, they'll go scoop up whole schools of anchovetas and anchovies. Then they just grind that up into a powder and send it off into the animal feed formulations.Essentially, all that farmed salmon is basically eating wild fish that's been caught and ground up and pelletized and then fed back to that salmon. Something like 90% of fisheries are on the verge of collapse or have already collapsed. There's a huge amount of interest in introducing insect proteins into animal feeds. The FDA and AAFCO, which is the organization that controls what can go into animal feeds, have already approved soldier fly proteins, which is another insect that's being widely grown for use in salmon feeds. Now, the FDA has also just indicated that they think that should also be allowed in poultry feed. Poultry feed is one of the biggest consumers of fishmeal in the land-based agriculture.Lisa:Do you have a website that people can go to?Andrew:Our company is Tiny Farms. The website is just www.tiny-farms.com. Yeah. You can check out our basic offering. You can contact us through the contact form.Lisa:Are you selling tiny farm hats, like you have on? [crosstalk]Andrew:We've printed short-runs of shirts and had these hats made just for the team. There's enough interest that I think we'll get those listed up there soon. We just have to start thinking about the food system, in terms of a self-sustaining system and not like feel good sustainability. This has to be a system that can continue to produce food forever.Lisa:There are a lot of us living here, and we'll need every tool we can use if we want to keep enjoying it.Andrew:Yeah. Exactly.Lisa:Thank you, Andrew, for being on program.Andrew:Thank you. This was fun.Lisa:You've been listening to Method To The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back again in two weeks. 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Lisa Campion is a Psychic Counselor, Energy Healer and Spiritual Teacher who specializes in training emerging psychics, healers and empaths to fully step into their gifts and live their life purpose - because, as she says, the world needs all the healers it can get! She’s been a professional psychic for decades and she also teaches Reiki. She talks about her brand new book which integrates psychic development and Reiki together. MENTIONED ON THE SHOW The Art of Psychic Reiki: Developing Your Intuitive and Empathic Abilities for Energy Healing by Lisa Campion Red Shoes with Psychic Lisa Campion - previous episode GUEST LINKS - LISA CAMPION lisacampion.com Psychic Reiki Facebook Group HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSON Slade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition FACEBOOK GROUP Shift Your Spirits Community BECOME A PATRON https://www.patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT Lisa: Well, it comes from a class that I've been teaching. I've been teaching reiki for about 20 years. And just in case you don't know what reiki is, reiki is a very gentle, hands-on energy healing technique from Japan. It's pretty exciting these days because, out here on the east coast where I live, all of the big hospitals have reiki in their complementary and alternative medicine units. So you can go to a big Boston hospital and ask for a reiki person to come and do this energy healing on you while you're in the hospital while you're getting chemo, pre and post surgery. It's really used for pain management a lot these days. Works great for anxiety and depression. It's getting to be more and more popular, more and more mainstream. So I train a lot of people to do reiki. I've been teaching for 20 years. What I noticed about it and why psychic reiki is that studying particularly reiki, energy medicine in general, but particularly reiki, often opens people who are sensitive. So if you're an empath, you might become more sensitive. If you have psychic tendencies or potential and you learn reiki, that can really open that channel for you. A lot of people didn't know what to do about that. It would be scary for them. It would be, I had one old lady tell me, 'I really love reiki but I stepped away from it because I felt like it opened me. I didn't know what to do and I got scared.' That makes me sad because I feel like the world needs all the healers it can get. That's how I decided to teach both of them together and why I wrote a book about it. Slade: I'm just wondering, that question comes up for a lot of people that I interact with, this idea of being opened up and being afraid of that happening. And kind of like, resisting it and sort of backing up from that. What do you say to somebody who's experiencing that, or on the verge of sort of feeling like they're opening up a little bit. What do you recommend that they do to sort of protect themselves but also move forward? Lisa: Yeah, it can be super overwhelming to people, so people who are sensitive and empathic, they feel, they're worried, they're afraid they're going to get flooded or overwhelmed or swamped by other people's feelings and emotions. That's hard for them. The people that are psychically-inclined may have a lot of fear about what that means. Are they gonna see bad things? Are they gonna go crazy? Are people gonna think they're crazy? What are they gonna tell their friends and family they're seeing people, they're having these psychic experiences, and there's still a lot of stigma about this. I know I'm preaching to the choir with you on this topic, Slade, but, you know, not too long ago, they would put people like us in the mental hospital for talking to angels. Slade: True. Lisa: Talking to angels and talking to their Uncle Fred would land you in the looney bin. So people have to sort of unwind the fear around that. And then, I think the best thing to do about it, I think everyone has to make a decision about whether they're going to accept or allow that part of themselves. Can we own it and what, if you do, then we have to sort of train. So, the empaths need to train, learn how to manage their energy, which nobody ever knows. Because very few people get taught that. And psychic people need to learn basic... I think it's like being street-smart. Like, how do we, when we have enough information, it's less scary than if we just don't throw open the door and don't have any context for it. Slade: You know, you're right to talk about the preaching to the choir thing. Even I forget how many people who are going through this, it's new for them. It's sometimes hard to remember when you've been doing this for 20 years that there's somebody who's experiencing this for two weeks or whatever. I keep being reminded, especially on social media and the Facebook groups, so many people posting about being in that part of the process. So I do want to be really sensitive to the fact that not everybody feels as bold and brave as we might. So who is this book for, ideally? Lisa: It's for people that are new to the idea of reiki and wanting to learn. So it gives my version of reiki, which is pretty practical, pretty grounded, pretty technical in a way. And I think it would also quite benefit people who are already reiki practitioners. You know, there's over a million reiki practitioners just in the United States alone and many more worldwide. Those people who have studied reiki, who want to learn more about it but also want to really incorporate the psychic, intuitive energy management piece because hardly anyone teaches that. There are a lot of fabulous reiki teachers, but they don't teach energy management basics. They don't teach how to really open our intuition, how to really strongly connect with our guides, our reiki guides. There doesn't seem to be very much where that's all in the same package. Slade: There are photographs in your book. There are infographics. You've got hand positions for working on yourself, for working on other people. Can we learn to actually practice reiki from this book? Lisa: You could. Yeah. It was designed to be a manual, so you can use it like a manual with a lot of the psychic and energy management techniques. And even those techniques are very technical-oriented, so teaching you specifically how to ground, how to clear yourself after a session, how to connect with your guides, what to do when x, y and z happens. Of course, when we're doing reiki, you do need to receive an attunment. The attunement can only be done by a reiki master. So a lot of people say, 'Well I feel like I touch people and I move energy. Am I doing reiki?' And the answer really is no unless you had a reiki attunement. So you could get everything you needed for reiki level one and two from the book except the attunement. You still need to find somebody near you who would do that for you. Slade: Well if there's that many people out there who are reiki practitioners, I guess that's a pretty realistic thing to be able to track down. What do you suggest someone does who maybe doesn't live in a major city, if they want to do the attunement? How would they find someone? Lisa: Lots of people do long distance attunements, and I do too. So I'm happy to do long distance attunements for people that I teach. Actually for the first time ever this summer, I taught a virtual reiki class via livestream. So I had a bunch of people in the room with me, and then I had a whole bunch of people on livestream. That was very cool. I loved it. For those people that were taking the class virtually, I would attune them long distance. So you can get long distance attunements. You can get long distance reiki treatment sessions and long distance works just as well. Some people say even better than when you're in the room. Slade: Really? Why do you think that is? Lisa: They've done a lot of studies, and I read this really interesting study recently about this. Long distance healing sessions seem to be more effective because... I don't know if there's less interference, there's less personalization. We don't take things personally as much. There's not, maybe as much mingling of our personal stuff into a session when it's long distance. Slade: Like sensory distractions or something? Lisa: Yeah, or like our personal agenda. Like you really like that person and you really want to help them. Slade: Right. Lisa: Sort of where we get hooked as a person, not as a healer, with our clients. And doing long distance work takes that out. Slade: Interesting. Well I prefer to not see people when I'm doing readings for them. I like to be kind of blind and only listening to them. And I prefer to do it from a distance. If somebody local asks me to do a reading, I'm like, 'You have to call me. I won't do it in the room with you.' Lisa: I know. I know that about you! I think that's so cool. But you're an auditory psychic, really, so... Slade: Yeah... Lisa: I know you got all the channels loaded up, but that's how you make your connection. Slade: It's kind of like when you listen to a piece of music and you really want to go in deep, you close your eyes and really focus in on it. But I am a people watcher, so I'm reading the subtle clues of like, the jewellry choices that someone made or what they're wearing or why does she have that hairstyle? It's very distracting. Lisa: Right! And I think the long distance takes that away. We get sort of a more neutral, more objective connection with long distance. Slade: You know what? I just have to say, I think technology's so amazing. And because I really think that technology is a friend to our... You know, we talk about the inner connectivity of human beings and collective consciousness and the zeitgeist and our ascendance as a species. I really believe that our technology, in particular our communications technology, amplifies our ability to do that. It really does have this opportunity to be hyper-connected. And to hear that there is a study that shows, not only does it works, but it actually might even work better - that's exciting. Lisa: That was exciting. And it was so exciting for me to do the livestream this summer. That was an incredible experience for me as a teacher, because I had a room full of 20 people, but I also had 10... One from... They were all over the world! And that livestream technology put them in the room with me. So cool. Slade: Are you gonna keep doing those, do you think? Periodically? Lisa: Yeah! Slade: Okay! Lisa: I will. Slade: Cool, cool. I've always wanted to ask a reiki practitioner this, and for some reason I haven't. Maybe because I don't want to show actually how little I know about it. But I'm just curious. What kind of things can we expect to experience if we are receiving reiki from someone? Should we feel something? What happens? Lisa: Yeah it's a great question. Reiki is a very nurturing and filling kind of energy. We say it comes in at the frequency of unconditional love. Which, I think if you're going to be stuck on planet earth, stuck on a desert island with only one frequency, that's a really good one to have, you know? Most people are really, sort of like turning on a faucet and standing under a waterfall where what you're receiving is this unconditional love. People tell me that it's very relaxing. It's very warm. So the reiki practitioner's hands get warm. That's sort of a signature of reiki - it's a hot hand healing technique. And people will feel sort of this, sometimes if you're sensitive to the flow of energy, you might feel pulsing, tingling, heat, kind of the feelings of energy moving. Other people don't feel that but they feel the results of the energy moving. So they'll feel relaxed, warm, peaceful, nurtured, energized. It's good. It's a good feeling. Slade: I am really impressed. I'm only becoming just aware, not only through you, but through another reiki practitioner that I work with, and I do mentoring with a lot of people around the intuitive stuff and the building of their practice who do have reiki and incorporate that into their practice. I come from the other side of where you're coming from, which is, I came in through the intuitive. And so much of what I do is just, almost a talk therapy or talk coaching format, and I have seen that there is this real beauty in having a healing component to your practice. Not only being able to tell someone, 'Oh, well your energy looks like crap. Here's why.' But to have the ability to actually do something about it, right then and there... Lisa: Absolutely. For me, that's the coolest thing. I do, about half of my sessions are in person in my office, and half are long-distance, phone or skype. The in-person sessions, because I'm a visual psychic and I'm looking at everyone's energy field, it's really painful for me to sit in a chair and see what's going on inside your energy field and not want to do something about it. So you can see me look at my client, I'll be like, 'Let's get you up on the table.' Because I want to get my hands on you. I want to sort of smooth things out or get rid of some blocks or kind of patch you back up a little bit. It's so satisfying to me to be able to do that. Slade: Well that's interesting you talk about the fact that you are more of a visual psychic. I noticed, just for me personally, looking through the book, one of the sections that I was most attracted to was the level of detail that you go into about reading the aura of the client. Talk to me a little bit about that. Is this stuff that you've observed through your practice? Did you learn it from someone else? There's a really cool level of detail specifically about reading the aura that I was surprised to find in here. I thought it was cool. Lisa: Yeah, thank you! I think I can teach people to do it pretty quickly. It's finding your open channel, so look, I teach my students to have somebody stand in front of a white wall and begin to observe. Like, what do we see? What do we see with our eyes open? What do we see if we look out of our peripheral vision or if you squint your eye? What do you then see if you close your eyes, because you're going to see better. Your psychic eye will kind of kick in. I like to also change the word 'see' to 'perceive'. So what do we perceive? Because everyone has different channels. Somebody might feel it, hear it. You might ask, 'Well what does that person's aura look like?' And you get the answer as a word in your head or a feeling in your body. A smell, a taste, a colour. There's all kinds of ways that that comes in and I think a lot of it is, that information is very available to us. Because we're constantly unconsciously reading other people's energy 24/7. We're all masters at it. Slade: Mmm... Lisa: We're ready. We're just doing it mostly unconsciously. So bringing that sort of consciousness, and then being aware of what channels we're receiving that information on is where we get really, oh, no, I get it. Slade: I notice that there's also an emphasis on empaths, which is really cool because, as we were talking about earlier, this experience of being sensitive and opening up to things. Tell me why particularly you chose to emphasize so much training around that energy hygiene, or that energy protection component. Lisa: Thanks for that question. It's a great question. What I notice about empaths, and I really work a lot with empathic people, is that I believe, the qualities of being an empath (so being able to feel what people are feeling with your own emotions, being able to put your hands on people, touch them and feel what's going on in their body in YOUR body), I believe that those two things are like the perfect diagnostic x-ray, MRI, for healers. So, really, that's what empath is for. That level of empathy is for people that are drawn to helping, healing, being a caregiver. We can all find our own unique way of doing that. But SO many empaths are called to be healers. So many. So many are called... And reiki is such a great entry point for people that are wanting to study. In fact, I will often tell my empaths to learn reiki, because learning reiki gives them an outlet for their desire to heal people. It teaches you how to not use your own energy, but to use universal life force. We can't run out of this universal supply of energy so you're not giving up your personal energy in reiki. And then it teaches you how to really ground, how to clear yourself, especially the way that I teach it. We learn these energetic basics of, how do we manage our energy field? So I think it's very good on every level, for people that are empaths. Slade: You know what I love about that too is so many people who talk about being highly sensitive, or experiencing empathic phenomenon, feel victimized by it. They feel afraid or anxious or beleaguered in some way. There's a lot of negativity and sort of victim-mindset around that sometimes. I really love, especially some of the people, like yourself that I've had on the show, who speak about the idea of being an empath from this really empowered perspective. That sensitivity is a gift and it's an ability that you can develop to do something really active in the world to help other people, right? Lisa: Yes. I absolutely... And I feel like what needs to happen is the empaths need to learn how to manage their energy, to manage their sensitivity. And that's the part that's missing for them. So it does absolutely feel like a curse. Like, take it away from me, make it go away, until we learn, first of all, what it's for. And then, second of all, how do we actually, in the moment, manage our energy. How do we ground? How do we clear energy we picked up that we don't want anymore? How do we pick up a habit of having a stronger energy field, or less porous energy field? And it's not hard to learn. There are many, many easy ways to do it. Once you begin to do that in a habitual way, so you change your habits, your energy management habits, then all of a sudden, the world is easier to be in. People don't drain you. The supermarket doesn't freak you out. And you can really then step into your gifts. And I feel this, it makes me really sad, because I feel like there's this terrible catch-22. Empaths want to help. They want to serve. They know that's what they're for and they can't figure out how to do it without this missing piece. Slade: Mmm... Something that I had an epiphany around there was you talking about was learning to use universal life force energy instead of using your own energy. And I thought, you know what? Maybe when I experience the anxiety of being drained, or from interacting with too many people, maybe it's because I'm shifting into a mode where I'm using my own energy and I'm not consciously aware of that. I'm gonna go sit with that concept. That was actually really revelatory for me. I'm having a moment over here, thinking, Ohmygod, is that what I'm doing? Lisa: Oh good! Slade: Like I'm gonna go work on that piece. Lisa: We ALL do! It's what we all do until we learn otherwise. Until we learn there's another way. Slade: Yeah. Lisa: We give up our energy, and when we don't have anymore, we steal energy from other people. We steal energy from coffee, sugar. We kind of have to... We become desperately drained and we then have to figure out how to fill ourselves up through addictions or through sort of energy vampirism. All of these horrible things that we don't want to do. So people are always talking about energy vampires. I'm considering this as the topic of my next book, by the way. What is the truth about energy vampires? Some energy vampires are people that are so empathic and they've been so badly drained that they're now desperate to get energy from anything. We go into system breakdown when that happens. Slade: That's kind of a more compassionate way to think about them too, to tell you the truth. Because when I hear 'energy vampire', I'm thinking, somebody with a personality disorder, who's like, 'Oh god, (eye roll) here they come.' You know what I mean? So to think about that from a more compassionate place of like, why are they doing that? What happened to them that they got to that point? That's a good thing to keep in mind. This is a little bit of a tangent, but while we're on the subject, what are your feelings around psychic attack? Like when somebody comes to you and says, 'I'm being psychically attacked', or 'someone is cursing me', or doing some kind of evil magic on me... What are your feelings about that? What's going on? Lisa: I think that it's real. I definitely have, in all the years that I've been doing work, you know, doing sessions for people, I think most of the time, probably a good 80% of the time, whoever's doing it is totally unconscious that they're doing it. You know? You're going through a rough break up and your ex is walking around, muttering, cursing you the way we think, that kind of thing, and if we're sensitive and we're so psychically connected to somebody, we're gonna feel it. Slade: Okay. Lisa: You know? We're gonna feel that. And I think that's most of the time. It's not that the person, somebody, woke up and said, 'I'm gonna do some black magic today!' 'What can I do to take a bite out of Slade this morning?' That is pretty rare. It does happen. There are definitely cultures or people who are very curse-prone. And I lived in a town with... For awhile, my office was in a town with a population of people who really loved to curse. And you'd go, you could go pay this lady $500 to put a curse on your friend who stole your boyfriend. Then if you're the person that got cursed, you go to the same lady to pay her $500 to get that thing off. That's happened. I just think it's not as common. It's mostly unconscious. People not knowing how to... And then people having maybe not very good boundaries. So if you're very leaky and you don't have a strong boundary, and the outer edge of your energy field is breached through trauma or whatever. There's many reasons why that happens. Then you can be really sensitive to that. Slade: My feeling is that you kind of have to participate in it at some level. Like, you've gotta be in some kind of relationship with this person in order for that phenomenon to occur. That may or may not necessarily be in your book. I just wanted to ask you about it while you were talking about it. And you were thinking about perhaps writing something about the topic. It is something that people bring to me in my practice, and I'm always a little bit suspicious of it being what they perceive it as. You know, that there could be something else going on. One thing I want to ask you about the book though is, we talked a lot about the reiki and the energy management part of it. Can we also learn to do psychic readings through this book? Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, you can. So I talk a lot about that. How to develop our psychic abilities. How to develop our intuition, which I see slightly different from psychic, and how to apply that in a reading. Because what happens a lot is that people, you know, when you're doing reiki or you're working with your hands, on or just above a person, and if you have those channels open, you might begin to see colours around those people. You might begin to feel the presence of spirits around you. It happens ALL the time. And I think it's great. It's an incredible opportunity for the healing to be deeper, more powerful, for your client to get more out of it if you know how to do it. So we have to learn, what does it mean when you see colours around people? What do you do when a spirit comes in? 'I think your mother's here...' How do we handle that? How do we get more of it? How do we have good boundaries and ethics around it? I talk actually a lot about ethics in my book. Because I feel like people... It's really important because not everyone gets good training, not every psychic gets good training, not every healer gets good training around, what are the boundaries? How do we keep ourselves and our client safe, especially with psychic stuff. Slade: I'm curious. Do you have any kind of plans to do maybe a Facebook group or some other kind of support around the book and the people who are working with it in the process? Lisa: Yeah! I have a Facebook group. It's called Psychic Reiki. Slade: Okay. Lisa: I would love to have you in it. Come on in, everybody! Slade: Okay! Lisa: It's a real nice community and it is a... You do have to ask permission to join the group, but I'd love to have you there. And that's exactly... I pop in there every week and do some Facebook live, I do some teaching, I answer questions. It's a great community. Slade: Is there anything that we haven't touched on about the book that you really want to emphasize or get out there? Lisa: I just wanted to say, I don't know, how, kind of amazed I am that I did it. It was really quite a process and it's been a very growthful personal process for me, to commit to doing it. It was a lot of work. I started writing it in 2015 and here it is in 2018, hitting the shelves. It was a pretty intense journey for me to go fully down that path and... Yeah, I guess that's... Slade: Well we definitely do have some writers in the audience and I wanted to ask you... Like, I always feel a little bit guilty if I start to nerd out on the author stuff when I'm talking to someone else. But you and I were talking a lot about the process and this journey, and books are big project undertakings. They're, like you said, you spent three years working on this. So what did you discover about this creative process? Will you do it again? Lisa: Absolutely will. The books are like queuing up in my head, so I already have the next three books, I think, in my head. I think of them like airplanes waiting for an open runway to land. And they do build up and I do feel compelled to write. Actually, I quite like the process of writing. I really enjoy it and somehow I was under this crazy idea that that was sort of it. That you hand in the manuscript and then you're done. Suddenly a book magically happens. So I wasn't prepared for the amount of work that it took to write the proposal, which I thought was more difficult than writing the book. And I had a coach. I never would've done it... I've had some really good coaching. And that's what helped me really get over these parts that I didn't know. And I would talk to my book coach and literally have to go breathe into a paper bag for a few minutes afterwards... 'You want me to do what?' Slade: We're so neurotic about this, aren't we? Lisa: Ohmygod, it was terrible! It had me at my edge, like the edge of my comfort zone. Once the writing was over, I was sort of fine during that period. Then I got an agent, that happened actually easily for me and a week later I had a publishing deal from a very good publisher, New Harbinger Press. They specialize in self-help and spirituality books. Then there was a year of editing the manuscript, which I was like, 'Ah! Piece of cake. I can do this.' And it was absolutely grueling. Slade: Ooo... Lisa: And it took forever. And the editor that I had was very good but not a big hand-holder. So after, little shreds of my ego were left after that book, I mean, there was nothing. It was like burned down to a bare-bones of myself. But I learned a TON. I learned a ton about how to write a good book and I'm a teacher, so that's where I came from. And she's like, 'There's a different skill set between teaching and writing a book that people will actually read.' So what happened to the manuscript, you wouldn't even recognize the manuscript I turned in compared to what it is. But I learned a ton. And then when I was, I was like, 'I'm finally done!' They sent the manuscript back to me and they said, 'Great. Now cut out 10,000 words.' Slade: Ooo, yeah. Lisa: And I learned micro-editing, like you take out the little words that don't mean anything. And I'm super glad I did because it's so much more polished. So much more readable. The whole process of that. Slade: My editor is a grammar nazi. I mean, she has a masters degree in grammar. I'm an English major. I have an English degree. I write all the time. I don't think that I'm that bad at it. But I learned that I had so many horrible... My face turns red thinking about the things that I would fill a manuscript with unconsciously. And so, the things that she's taught me about grammar, like, 'Oh, you have a tendency to do this thing, which is really annoying, and then you're gonna have to go through and change it'. What happens is, you take that on and it becomes a part of your programming. And then the next time you write, you don't do those things. So it is the most humiliating thing in the world to work really hard on something and feel like such a smartypants and then have somebody hand it back to you marked to pieces. I mean, it just shreds your soul. Lisa: Totally. It was so painful, but I'm such a better writer now. Slade: Yeah! And every time you do it, it's like you're learning something, even about the structure of a book. Like when you go in and write that next outline, having been through that process, it changes the way that you start. It reduces the amount of work on the back end, sometimes, just by knowing, okay, I know what's going to happen here so let's build this in from the beginning. I just want to say that for... Yeah, go ahead. Lisa: I was just gonna say, who knew that a chapter really needs an introductory paragraph and a concluding paragraph. They teach you that in high school and I never did it. And now I have it. Slade: Did you not do... Did you not identify as a writer when you were younger like that? Lisa: I did! I totally did. I was like you. I was a literature major. I studied comparative literature. I was a freelance writer for Ziff Davis for ten years. I wrote magazine articles for national magazines. I always thought I was a good writer. And I think I was a good writer, but I think I'm a much better writer now. Slade: Mmm... I think you're the real deal. Because most people would crumble in the face of that and just run away. The fact that you've been through that process and your first thought is, Ooo what am I going to do next, is the sure sign of an author. I'm really excited for you to be experiencing this first big launch. I was gonna say, for everybody who's out there working on a book, there is a great power in completing projects and taking them all the way through the process. Because, like I said, you learn something from the tail end of it, which is so much bigger than you thought. That then informs what you do from the beginning and the next one. And I feel like that probably happens on some level every single time. So don't just write A book. Write lots of books. Write all of them, if you have time. Lisa: Yeah. Slade: Lisa, I'm so happy that our work gives us the opportunity to get together and talk like we do. Again, the book is called The Art of Psychic Reiki: developing your intuitive and empathic abilities for energy healing, by Lisa Campion. Tell us where we can go to find out more about you and this book. Lisa: Well the book you can get on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, Goodreads. It's available on all those places. And if you want to find out more about me, just come visit me on my website: LisaCampion.com I'd love to see you on that Facebook group. Find me on Facebook or like me on Facebook and find my Facebook page, Psychic Reiki. I'd love to see you there. Slade: That was great, Lisa. Thank you for coming on the show. Lisa: Thank you, Slade. It was so much fun.

TVI Toolbox - Tools for Success: Meet Devin and Lisa, Son and Mom, Experiencing State Services and the BEP #SuccessStories Blind Abilities presents the TVI Toolbox. Where the collaboration between Teachers, Counselors, Parents, Agencies and the Students themselves help enhance the opportunities for success. Transitioning from high school to college and the workplace is  a major step and the beginning of lifetime goals and aspirations. As Devin , this month’s featured interview in the Success Stories portion of this podcast, experienced the workforce through an internship with the Business Enterprise Program (BEP). The BEP Director John Hulet talks about what to expect and how to get involved with BEP. Devin’s mom, Lisa Ferguson, takes us through her experience as a mom of a child with vision loss and working with State Services for the Blind (SSB). Her perspective along with Devin’s gives us a good idea of how Devin became a member of the workforce at age 15. Job experience, resume writing, learning the public transit system as a means of transportation and developing a relationship with a business owner and the Transition Team at SSB gives Devin and Lisa a wealth of experience moving forward. Full Transcript Below.  From the TVI’s to the Agency counselor’s and program specialist, working together along with parents as well, is creating more opportunities and successes for Transition age students. Sharing experiences through Success Stories, sharing programs that make a positive impact, sharing ideas, findings, upcoming events and the Tools for Success all play a part in making the transition process a natural progression and better understood by all.   Here are the links to the information we bring to this episode.   Transit Tracker App on the App Store https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/transit-tracker/id659183692?mt=8   Join.Me- Screen Sharing Service on the Web. Getting everyone on the same page is easy – so long as join.me instant screen sharing is involved. When you start your join.me meeting, simply press the “Broadcast” button and you’re ready to go. It’s that simple.   Check out your State Services by searching the Services Directory on the AFB.org web site.   State Services for the Blind of Minnesota We offer tools and training for employment and for helping seniors remain independent and active. As Minnesota’s accessible reading source we also transcribe books and other materials into alternative formats, including audio and braille. We assist Minnesotans who are blind, DeafBlind, losing vision, or who have another disability that makes it difficult to read print. I hope you find what you need here. We've also created a Tips for Using Our New Website page. If you’d like to apply for services, learn more, or have more questions, just give us a call. You’ll find contact information for all of our offices on our contact page, or you can call our main office at 651-539-2300.   You can submit to the On The Horizons segment by emailing jessica Hodges   Full Transcript:   Narrator: TVI toolbox is a tool for teachers, for agencies, for clients, to enhance the opportunities and the understanding of transition services; professionals talking about the services they provide, teachers of the visually impaired talking about topics of transitioning from high school, to college, to the work place. Students talking about their journeys, their successes, and some of the barricades and brick walls that were in their way, and solutions, tips, and tricks, on how they got through it. On this episode of TVI toolbox, we have John Hulet, director of the Business Enterprise program from state services for the blind. We also have Devin and Lisa. Devin is a high school student who took part in the Business Enterprise program internship. And Lisa is Devin's mom, and Lisa's going to talk about Devin's experience, and her experience with state services for the blind. And in tools for success, we have a demonstration of transit tracker, an application for busses, trains, timings, and routs, and it's totally accessible. And for more podcasts with a blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on twitter @blindabilities, and download the free app from the app store. That's two words, blind abilities. This podcast was produced in part by state services for the blind, live, learn, work, and play. And now, here's John Hulet, director of the Business Enterprise Program at state services. So John Hulet, what qualities makes a great business Enterprise program operator?    John: some of the most important attributes would be an individual who's motivated, who's a selfstater, who's willing to learn how to do things, who comes into the program wanting to work and is excited about the idea of operating their own business, but recognizing at the same time that there's a lot of work in operating ones own business.    Narrator: That was John Hulet. They opened up an internship in the Business Enterprise program to a high school student, and we got the opportunity to talk to Devin, and his mother Lisa. She's going to give us the perspective of a mom working with state services for the blind and  the Business Enterprise program.    Lisa: My name is Lisa Ferguson, I'm Devin Westmiller's mom who worked this summer for the BEP through SSB   Narrator: mhm, that's great. How did you first get connected with state services for the blind?    Lisa: I was told about it by his vision teacher Sophie Chaven   Narrator: mm, so the school districts teacher   Lisa: yes   Narrator: And when you contacted them you found opportunities? It seems like he really enjoyed the vending program this summer.    Lisa: oh, for sure, I actually enquired to see if he could do the vending, like go to school and get the certificate for the vending, but as far as I know, or what I was told, he is the youngest one to actually utilize and work through the BEP program.    Narrator: That's great   Lisa: Yeah, so he's a very young fifteen year old, he just turned fifteen   Narrator: So with that experience maybe next summer he can do a little more, and have something lined up for him right upon graduation?    Lisa: Oh, definitely, actually one sooner than that now we can actually make him a resume. We actually did make him a resume and he applied for another job at SSB.    Narrator: And did you use the online Minnesota online job application process?    Lisa: Yes, we did   Narrator: How'd that go?    Lisa: It went good. It was definitely a good learning experience.    Narrator: So what's it like for you to experience state services for the blind?    Lisa: It's been really positive and my, I guess our counselor, Tou Yang has just been on top of this and got a new position, and learning himself on the way, ends up being kind of like a mediator,  person who can kind of make it easier for the main counselor Ashlyn to make everything successful for us. Without him I'm not sure what or how I would have done it, so that was extremely important.    Narrator: The middle man    Lisa: yeah, the middle man is very important. And I"am not saying maybe Ashlyn could have done the same thing, I just dealt with Tou   Narrator: Well, in his position, that exactly, what he's there to do. Ashlyn has other clients, so when someone's in the position that Devin was in, he moves in and segways them into companies or other people where the opportunities are. He's kind of that bridge. So he's a tool of Ashlyn's.    Lisa: Yeah, definitely, I mean he's the one that came to the school like every week, for a while, or a couple times a month, and did those intense assessments, so Devin was able to get to know him, and wen Devin first told me about it, he kind of brought it up, and a few weeks went by, and summer was coming, and he said "I really want to do that vending thing.That was really difficult fro me because we're in the suburbs, and had to go to saintpaul every morning, but we made it work, and he learned how to use the bus, so it was a big learning experience as well using mass transit.   Narrator: Experience is one of the best teachers, so this is something that's going to stick with him for quite a while.    Lisa: Yes, definitely.    Narrator: Yeah, the BEP program in Minnesota is a really good, and you learn a lot from it and see just how business is done, all from a machine, or from the store, which ever you experience, so that's great   Lisa: And eh really liked, what did they call it, Eric Farms was his mentor,    Narrator: Oh, Eric   Lisa: Since he had the stores and the vending machines and he really enjoyed working with Eric, Eric was a great mentor, so that was another big part of the connection experience that we had through SSb meeting Eric and having Eric be completely blind. Devin is legally blind, and doesn't need a lot of the adaptations, but  Eric just was incredible with my son, so. And he's very open to let other people come in, you know, there was other people that Eric has working for him through these programs, it's pretty special.    Narrator: So it's worked out pretty good?    Lisa: Yeah, it's worked out great   Narrator: That's good, and now he's going out and resume building, and filling out a job application, and hopefully a job interview coming up, and that experience, and lots of good stuff. That's great. So what advice would you have for other parents who are experiencing a child that is loosing vision or has vision loss?    Lisa: Take advantage of the services that are out there. Take advantage of SSB, and the Bep program, and put your fingers to the keyboard. Ask questions at the IEP meeting, ask questions to follow it all through. I mean, that's really what it is. You have to really be engaged, and partake in helping find the resources that around as early as possible, and once that's done, you get it in earlier, and they kind of have a path to start from.    Narrator: You mentioned the IEP, the individual education plan?    Lisa: Yes   Narrator: Can you explain that to some parents that may not know what that is?    Lisa: It's a plan that's kind of to, it's through the school that has these special education program, and you need, it's an independent education plan that a group of people or support group at the school get together, and it becomes regulated in the school. If your child needs adaptation needs or specific needs, like my son can wear a baseball hat at school if it's too bright in the room. Just certain little tweaks and things like that that can really help your kid. I mean the latest example is Devin is in tenth grade and taking statistics, and he has to get a calculator, and the calculator, even though he can see, he is limited on his certain vision, looking on a very small screen is difficult, and strain. so I said that's not going to work, we need to find a solution, and so the people that were in the group of the IEP helped me to get an application that he can use on his computer. So he can actually look at the graphing app on his computer instead of a tiny little screen. It just makes the people behind him in the special education program on top of it.    Narrator: Keeps everyone on the same page.    Lisa: Yeah, as long as everyone's engaged, that's the best thing for your child.    Narrator: Now I myself am visually impaired, I wouldn't know what it's like to have a child that lost his eye sight, did you know you would be his best advocate?    Lisa: It came as a bit of a peculiar circumstance, because I am deaf. I wear two hearing aids. Without my hearing aids I'd be eighty percent deaf. I have to do ASL, but luckily I have some really good hearing aids, and so I knew also had special education. Back then they didn't call it special education, they didn't call it IEPs, but we had support, and additional person, at least I was given speech therapy and things like that that I had requested through elementary school, and junior high, and high school. So I know some of the difficulties, having a different kind of disability, and I kind of became my own advocate really young. I didn't really have somebody else to speak for me, so I  had to speak for myself,  I can't hear, I need to sit in the front, I don't know what's going on. And the special education tutor outside of the classroom was very helpful! So it was the same type of thing that we go through we need to lift a helping hand.    Narrator: so you've almost become a roll model too, I mean your achievements, he sees as successful, and now he's getting some success, last summer was a big success, it seems like you guys are on the right path.    Lisa: he wants to...I can't get him a job fast enough.    Narrator: There you go. Now, back in the day people looked at state services for the blind as kind of a last resort if you can't do it yourself, like a safety net, and I'd like to think that we're blowing some good, fresh wind into the place, and they're doing a good job. Like Tou is there, and the whole transition department there has really grown and expanded and put some good focus on getting the job experience that is needed, and it becomes a vehicle for your future.    Lisa: I agree. I guess I, when you were first saying that it was a last resort, absolutely not, it's a first resort   Narrator: That's a great way of putting it because it used to be, back in the day like, you can't pull your bootstraps up, then you go there, and the image is really changed, and that's part of why we're doing some of these podcasts to cast, let people see that  by going to state services for the blind you have opportunities that are created and experience, and you set a foot forward on the right path to succeed   Lisa: yeah, definitely, without a doubt   Narrator: If you actually break down that "Can I do it?" and actually say yes I can.    Lisa: Well I think one of the things is I'm here for Devin, so I can help him . I mean obviously I'm getting the resources to him because he wouldn't know how to ask for them, so I'm guessing there's plenty of people who don't have that extra person do you know what I mean, that can't be reached the way that Devin... you know, luckily we have an IEP, we have a vision teacher, we have somebody to connect us. So I can see it being difficult for people who don't have that person to help them out. And if they don't have a parent or guardian or somebody, whoever they're working with needs to really, I guess, share the information.    Narrator: I've got to hand it to you for being effectively involved in his journey. It's really great that you've had the experience kind of knew the ropes a little bit.   Lisa: Yeah, for sure.    Narrator: You've got to get out there and find them too.    Lisa: Yeah, and I keep searching. I mean, it doesn't end with SSB, but SSB is huge and we're going to continue to use them in the future for connections, job opportunities, living opportunities, training,    Narrator: Training, life skills, orientation and mobility, how to use the transit systems, from all levels, to legally blind to totally blind there's something there, a division there that can help anybody, all the way to seniors, and all the way to, I think Devin's one of the younger ones, I think 14 is the start, or fifteen, and he's already done some work in the summer, so he's got a great start, good job to both of you.    Lisa: Thank you. Yeah, he is   Narrator: It's a team over at SSB.    Lisa: Yeah   Narrator: Lisa thank you for taking the time and coming onto the podcast, and you're doing a great job, you and Devin, and congratulations to all the success you guys have had so far.    Lisa: And thank you for what you're doing for my son, and thanks SSB   Narrator: It's always good to get a perspective of a mom of a child going through state services for the blind, especially the business enterprise program. And now, here's Devin, talking about his experience on the job. And today we're talking to Devin Wesmeller, how are you doing?    Devin: Good    Narrator: Good, could you tell our listeners at blind abilities about who you are, what you do, and what you did last summer?    Devin: I'm a tenth grader, sophomore in high school. I just started the school year. I'm trying to focus.    Narrator: What was it like starting school again, fun?    Devin: Yeah, it's actually pretty good so far   Narrator: That's good. What kind of classes are you taking?    Devin: World history, statistics, history, English.    Narrator: While you're in high school do you use any alternative techniques or any devices to help you for accomplishing accommodations?    Devin: I use a web sight called join.me   Narrator: Join.me?    Devin: Yeah, it's a web sight. All my teachers have it. They sign into it, and They give me a code, and it's a screen share app, so I can see whatever's on their screen through my computer   Narrator: Oh, really! Well that's interesting. join.me, I'll look that up. All your teachers have that, so it's just something that you've come to accept as part of going to school?    Devin: Yeah, and it definitely helps a lot, so I actually like it.    Narrator: That's great. When you're in your school district you have a teacher for the visually impaired?    Devin: Yeah, I most of the time will work with my DHH teacher, but it's mostly about my vision.    Narrator: Ah, and what's a DHH teacher?    Devin: Deaf and hard of hearing teacher, because I have a slight hearing loss.    Narrator: Ok, so last summer, you worked with state services for the blind in Minnesota, and it created an opportunity for you to do some work. Can you tell our listeners a little about that?    Devin: Yeah, it was a vending company, and I worked there for like two months during the summer, and learned all about what it would be like to be a vender.    Narrator: For the business Enterprise program?    Devin: Yeah.    Narrator: That's probably pretty interesting isn't it? How'd you like it?    Devin: It was really fun.    Narrator: Does that open up again for you next year maybe?    Devin:  I hope so.    Narrator: Per sue it, maybe it could happen. Being intense and looking towards the future, have you thought about college at all?    Devin: Kind of, not that much so far.    Narrator: Any interests?    Devin: I'll be starting to think out of it my junior year.    Narrator: mhm, growing up with vision loss, how did that affect your childhood?    Devin: It was hard when I was younger because I didn't I wore special glasses, really dark to help with light sensitivity, and I had to wear big sunglass goggles, and I couldn't see very well through them. Other than that, I was fine in class, I did pretty ok.    Narrator: How  do you access your computer today?    Devin: As long as I'm close, or I zoom in a little bit I can see it.    Narrator: Is there any devices such as an iPhone, or a computer...what's your favorite a PC or a Mac?    Devin: I just use a chromebook from my school    Narrator: Ah. So do you like the iPhone?    Devin: Yeah, I like the iPhone 5S   Narrator: Do you use the accessibility feature of the zoom?    Devin: Yeah, sometimes, I need it if I can't zoom in on something.    Narrator: That's pretty nice to have that central zoom from the apple products.   Devin: Yeah.    Narrator: So Devin, what kind of hobbies do you do? what kind of stuff do you do for leisure, entertainment, and all that stuff?    Devin: I like to hang out with friends, and study hard, because I'm starting the year really good.    Narrator: In the business Enterprise program when you got introduced to that, what was your day like? When you started, when you showed up for work, until you got done?    Devin: I just started on the vending machines, started the store, made sure they were nice and stocked for the day. Because they were the best sellers.    Narrator: So you'd have to open them up and pull up the trays, and make sure all of them are full, and...   Devin: Yeah, because e they were all bought from a lot.   Narrator: There was opportunity to make some money there.    Devin: Yeah   Narrator: Did you get into some of the soda machines and the coffee machines that type of thing?    Devin: Yeah, yeah I learned how to go in the back, and stack the right way, and soda machine, and clean the coffee vending machine.   Narrator: It's not all fun and games, is it?    Devin: No, it takes a lot.    Narrator: Mhm, so do you think this will be something that other people might be get interested in?    Devin: Yeah, I think so, I thought it was really fun.    Narrator: What's the suggestions you have for other people who are looking for summer work and are visually impaired.    Devin: I think they should use state services for the blind because of the opportunities they gave me.    Narrator: And how would someone get a hold of state services for the blind?    Narrator: My mom told me she wanted to sign me up for this thing that would help me in the future and it was state services for the blind. I thought it was a good idea, because I hadn't had any work experience so I wanted to get some. We asked if their were any opportunities in the summer.    Narrator: Great. Well, Devin,thank you very much, thanks for coming on to Blind Abilities.    Devin: Thanks , thank you   Narrator: It's really great to know that Devin's got a little bit of job experience now and wants to go back. And if you're interested in getting job experience, contact your state services for the blind and see what they can do for you. Now, here's John Hulet. He's going to tell you a little bit about if you're interested in the Business Enterprise Program.    John: Well first of all, I think it's important that anybody that's listening to this is interested in the program they should contact me to talk about it. One of the things I like to talk about with folks when we're first starting out is to let them know how the program operates. Because their's a list of available vending investment opportunities in the state, and our BEP venders typically stay in the program for twenty, sometimes forty plus years, it can be challenging to know when an opportunity will become available. though this type of challenge exists, we are always excited about meeting potential participants, discussing the program in greater detail with them, and looking at potential vending business opportunities that may exist. The training is a compilation of interviews, assessments, job shadowing, online training, in house equipment training, and on the job training. This business can take six to nine months to complete.    Narrator: There you have it. If you're interested in owning your own business, want to work hard, and be your own boss, contact your state services and enquire about the Business Enterprise program. And now, tools for success. And today, we're going to be looking at an app that helps with bus routs, train routs, something you can pull out, turn it on, and it will tell you when the next bus is coming, or train, in real time. So I've opened up my iPhone, hit the icon   VoiceOver: Transit Tracker   Narrator: And here I am. It starts out, in default, I open it up, and I'm at the left hand corner, so I'm going to swipe  to the right with one finger.    VoiceOver: Transit tracker, MSP, heading.    Narrator: So it's set for Minneapolis and Saintpaul.    VoiceOver: Refresh, button   Narrator: Hitting this button will refresh all the routs populated on your screen.    VoiceOver: N features visible.    Narrator: There is a map provided, which takes up about a two inch square on the screen, and since we're using VoiceOver, it's not going to give us much information, so I will keep swiping, single finger left to right. It comes up to my location that I'm at right now   VoiceOver: East River road and 69th way.   Narrator: So now we'll continue swiping left to right, single finger,, and it starts telling me the routs that the GPS has located for me at my destination.    VoiceOver: 852, north bound 852 A Express/North town Oka tech, next scheduled departure, 1:53 PM    Narrator: So, if I swipe again,    VoiceOver: 852, south bound, 852 south bound 7nnMPLS, next scheduled departure, 1:56 PM    Narrator: So that's pretty nice. River road runs north to south, and it's telling me what's coming, and the time. So, what if I wanted to find other routs? Up in the upper left hand corner, there's a button, four finger single tap near the top will put my VoiceOver cursor right on the top.    VoiceOver: Top of screen.    Narrator: Swipe to the  left,    VoiceOver: Button   Narrator: Now this is not labeled, but I know it's the menu, and you could label this button by doing a two finger single tap and hold and then typing in, menu. So here goes, two finger double tap and hold?    VoiceOver: Alert, text field, is editing, label, insertion point at start. M, E, N, U, save, button.    Narrator: Ok, I'll try a four finger single tap near the top   VoiceOver: Transit tracker   Narrator: and a single finger swipe to the left,    VoiceOver: Menu, button.    Narrator: There it is, it's now labeled. In this method of labeling a button or something that you would like to have labeled works across the board. So remember, a two finger double tap and hold brings up the dialogue box that will label that button. So, let's go check out the menu. Single finger double tap   VoiceOver: Transit Tracker, MSP. Trip planner   Narrator: Trip planner is where you can type in a destination. You have two criteria's, the time you want to leave, and the time that you arrive the destination. So say I wanted to get there by five o'clock, it would then calculate what time I would need to leave on what route to arrive there at five o'clock. Or, if I wanted to leave here at three, it would then let me know when I'd arrive at my destination. Trip planner's a great option if you're not so sure what time it's going to take to get there, and to make sure you're on time.    VoiceOver: Routs/stops   Narrator: If I was to click on this, I could then search for any bus number that I would like. That's called a rout. If I was to choose from a stop, I could type in the stop number, and it would tell me the busses and times, and typically I'd just look for the bus number. Moving down the menu list, It will show me the forms of transportation that I have to choose from.    VoiceOver: Transit type. Selected, bus, train, northstar, amtrack    Narrator: So there you go, those are your four choices. So when you find a rout that you take frequently, or a series of routs that you take frequently, you then have the option to save it, right here in the menu.    VoiceOver: Saved.    Narrator: That's really nice, because typically, with GPS, always looking for the busses that are in your vicinity, wherever you are. So say you're two blocks away at a restaurant or coffee shop, anticipating a bus arrival. you could then go to your saved stops, and see what's happening there. So that's a little overview of Transit Tracker. Download it to your phone, check it out, and I believe for 4.99 you can upgrade to a no advertisement, the ability to save your routs, a little more, robust it makes it. I did it, and it's real worth it, but you can use the free version as well. So thanks for checking out tools for success. And remember, for more podcasts with a blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on twitter @blindabilities, and download the free blind abilities app from the app store, that's two words, blind abilities. 

Podcast Darren Standish and Lisa B Lisa Today I was interviewed by Darren Standish from Property Prosperity and we spoke about how to choose a real estate agent. Some of the things I discussed was about marketing, about advertising and about negotiation.   The difference between advertising and marketing – Advertising is one small part of marketing. Advertising is say.. advertising a specific property – so it’s putting an ad in the paper about a particular property, it’s doing a flyer about a particular property, it’s a for sale sign out the front of a particular property. Now marketing is everything else.. Marketing is building your brand.. it’s marketing you.  Marketing is the strategy.. Who is your buyer? What can you do to attract them.. what can you do to keep YOU top of mind awareness. I hope you enjoy this podcast.   Darren: Welcome to this week’s edition of Property Secrets. The show where we speak to experts from around the country to give us an insider's guide to buying and selling and investing in real estate. I know a lot of people out there that want to know how to choose a good real estate agent - they know that an agent can make a massive difference but they’re not really sure how to choose the best real estate agents. What I’ve done, I’ve gone and got Lisa B to come and join us - she’s actually a real estate coach from The Real Estate Hotline. Thanks for joining us Lisa. Lisa: Thank you for having me,,,, and I was going to say I’m in the sunny Gold Coast but it’s not, it’s pouring rain. (Laughing). Darren: (Laughing). Fantastic. Well thanks for joining us, like I’ve said, a lot of people you know, know the difference a real estate agent can make but they sort of struggle to work it out.   All the agents seem like they do the same thing and obviously, you know, especially nowadays, people think ‘oh maybe I can just sell it myself’…. so….. I want you to get on and really talk about the difference between a good agent and a not so good agent. Before we get to that..  I suppose if you could give people a bit of your background - you’re obviously a real estate trainer and coach and you give advice to real estate agents.  Did you start out as a real estate agent or how did you learn your skills? Lisa:   Yes, I started in real estate when I was about 22 years old. I’m 49 now so, yes. A long time. I worked in real estate for about 18 months before I bought my own business. So in my early 20’s I had my own real estate office. And that was scary, that was something that I learnt very fast. I had that office and that was near Wollongong, - I had a franchise and my own name as the brand -  I had those for a long time, then I opened up another office in Sydney.  And it was something that, in my very first business, I knew the area very well.   People would come to us because of the marketing and the work that we did. And then when I opened up in Mosman, we didn’t know anybody. We didn’t know the area. It was the complete opposite of what I was used to. So I really had to create a really big presence very fast. To show our experience and our credibility and all that sort of thing and I really worked hard on building our online profile and our offline profile in that area. And from that, I had a lot of real estate agents that would ring me and say ‘How did you do this with your online marketing’, ‘How did you do that’ and ‘How did you do this with your video’. And so that was how I created my first online course for real estate agents, on marketing…. Online marketing and that sort of thing so…. I’ve written books on the subject. And now I’m a real estate coach on demand. So, I’ve done coaching for a long time and online marketing - all sorts of things. So… real estate agents can ring me anytime if they’re stuck with say a buyer and they can’t get a deal across the line. Or they’re trying to get a property signed up or a listing -  they can call. Anything real estate related or business related.  So that’s a bit of my background as far as, you know how I got into the profession. It’s just been something, that… I love real estate, you know. I think once you get into real estate it’s in your blood so, I just love it. I love everything about it. I loved being a real estate agent. I love helping people find their ideal home... Finding their dreams and making it their family home. So it’s something that I’ve always been proud to say I’m a real estate agent. And I always did my best as a real estate agent.  I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday about being a real estate agent and sometimes it is tough. And it’s like, when you go to bed every night - you have to think ‘Have I done my best?’ and you answer ‘Yes, I have’. You sleep well…. If you haven’t, you learn from it, and you sort of and work on what you can improve on. Real estate gets into your blood, it’s just something that yes….  I just love it. As far as choosing a good real estate agent goes, or a great real estate agent goes. For me If I was going to choose a real estate agent, I would probably, if I didn’t know somebody personally or if I hadn’t seen anybody before, I would do a lot of research online. Because if you’re just going to ring the local real estate office and you don’t know anyone personally…. You haven’t watched them online, or you don’t know anything about them, it’s really just a lucky dip.  You are just kind of putting your hand in and picking out who ever you get. So you might ring the local franchise and say, I want to sell my house. You might get the person that’s been in real estate for five minutes, you might get the person who’s been in real estate for five years or 40 years. You don’t really know who you are going to get. So to me, if I was going to choose a real estate agent, I would really research and find somebody who’s probably a bit high profile, somebody who’s a bit out there. They are marketing themselves and they’re marketing their office. Now from being online you can form the ‘like, know and trust factor’, so you can follow somebody for a little while and you can go - I actually like that person and I feel like I can trust them, you know the things they say -  You can relate to them. So it’s the ‘like, know and trust factor’.  And that’s something that you can really get online rather than just having the lucky dip approach….. SO the other thing that I would look at is…  have they got a track record in the area? If your property is say prestige property, have they got a track record in prestige property? So I would really research them and make sure that they’ve got the experience and qualifications. Now, when you choose a real estate agent, the things that I think you need a real estate agent for, is for negotiation and for marketing. So I would test the real estate agent in lots of different ways. In negotiation, I would be asking lots of different questions. Like, if they came into my house and they told me a price - i.e what my house was worth… I would want them to really sell me that price. OK? Why is it worth that price? I want you to tell me all the factors that come into it., I want you to prove to me that it’s THAT price.  One, because I want them to be able to prove it to the buyers - that it’s worth that price. I also want to see how they negotiate in that sort of thing as well. So even if it comes down to when they’re talking about their fee, or how well can they negotiate their own fee. If they’re just going to give in, they will probably give in on your asking price if you chose them…… so….. I would also, even go out with them and have a look at property as far as buying a property with them. Just to get them to show you some properties, go to open houses, and ask question, things like, what do you think of this property - what do you think it will sell for? What do you think it’s worth? Have you had any offers on it? See if they’re actually working for the seller or they’re working for the buyer. Okay because what you want…. When you’re selling your property, you want the agent to be working for you as a seller. If you’re buying a property, go with the one’s that are like that – the one that’s going to give the sellers money away. But if you’re a seller, you really want go with somebody that’s a top negotiator. So there are two things, negotiation and then the other one is marketing. And the other thing too, is when they come to your house, if they give you an appraisal or you go out with them as a buyer. How’s their follow up? Do they ring you up and say ‘what did you think of that property?’, ‘Would you consider making an offer on the property?’. Or if they have appraised your property….. What sort of follow up have they done for you? Do they drop you off a written appraisal? Do they ring you? Do they ask you how you are going? Do they try to give you something else?  Do they offer more comparable sales or let you know something that comes on the market? That’s a really big thing as well, because so many times you list with an agent and they don’t keep in contact – they don’t follow up. And that’s something that is so important. You want to get the feedback and all that sort of thing. So, I think that’s really important. So do you want me to go on in the marketing, side of things now? (Laughing). Darren: The things you are saying are really valid and obviously I have the same things too. And I’m glad you’re saying that, because obviously that’s the thing, a lot of people don’t realise what an agent’s job is. And I think to be honest, a lot of agents don’t even realise what an agent should be doing. I totally agree. I think there are two roles, marketing the property and negotiating the sale of the property. Lisa: Yes. Darren: I think everything else is almost irrelevant, you can get someone for $25 an hour that can hand out some flyers, and conduct open inspections or drive around to get contracts signed, paperwork etc.. But if your agent has skills in those two things, negotiation and marketing…  That’s most important. That’s the most important thing, because at the end of the day it’s going to result in tens of thousands of dollars extra in the sale price of your house. So that’s what’s really valuable. The agent… and that’s why their commission can become almost irrelevant as well, because…. if they’ve got those skills, they can add so much value to your property and if they are charging an extra thousand or two thousand dollars more than the other agent  that doesn’t have those skills, but they can make you an extra 20, 30, 40, 50 thousand dollars that could be the big difference. Lisa: Exactly, because if the agent is not negotiating a better price for you, then you might as well do it yourself. If you are a better negotiator, you might as well do it yourself. That’s why check their fees,  if you can negotiate better than them,  don’t choose them.  Sell it yourself. Go with somebody who is a negotiator. Somebody that has studied it..  and someone that knows what to do. That is a massive tip. A massive tip. (Laughing). Darren: There are people that come to me from out of state (and they don’t want me to be their real estate agent), They’ll say how do I choose between real estate agents?  I say… Ask them two questions…  Ask them whether they are going to reduce their commission and will they be willing to reduce the cost of marketing Lisa: Yes. Darren: Either of those… Then they are not the agents you want. If they can’t negotiate on their own fee….then what are they going to be like when it’s your house and they don’t really care. This is their money they’re willing to give away. Likewise with marketing, you’ve got to be willing to market your home..  Marketing makes such a difference to the sale price for a house.  If an agent doesn’t believe it’s important, then…. Lisa: Yes. Darren: Then, they are just going to take shortcuts. Lisa: There’s a question you can ask real estate agents as well. Do they understand the difference between advertising and marketing? Because advertising is putting an ad in the paper and just putting a property online. There’s so much more involved in marketing yourself. To market your office…. like you do your podcast. Videos that you do. That’s marketing yourself and your office and things like that. So advertising is just one small part of it.   I have for my coaching clients what I call the marketing umbrella or different ways of making the phone ring. If you’ve only got one or two ways of making the phone ring and that’s by putting an ad in the paper or an ad on the real estate portals. It’s not really the highest, you know…. if one of those sources stopped, you’ve lost all of your enquiry. So it’s really getting that enquiry from lots of different places and that’s a question to ask a real estate agents as well…. Is how do they advertise/market your property and how do they market themselves? And see what they say. What’s their brand like? What’s their brand promise? And as I said, if they’re a prestige agent, does their website reflect that? Does their marketing reflect that? Does their presentation reflect that? Is their brand consistent? And just check little things like their advertising. How is the advertising of their property for sale… Is it concise? Are there any typos? Is it well written?   Is it entertaining or is it boring? You want to go with somebody that’s got a little bit of flare with writing or copywriting. Darren: Sorry for interrupting. How would you describe….... a lot of people out there using the word marketing when they are talking about advertising. A lot of people would be thinking they’re the same thing, you know. Putting an advertisement in the paper, putting on the internet. What’s the difference between marketing and advertising in your view? Lisa: Okay, Well as I said advertising is just one little part of it. Going now to marketing. Marketing is like marketing yourself, so you’ve got your podcast, you do your videos. It might just be giving out pens and things like that with your name on it, things to create top of mind awareness. It’s following up with different marketing materials and things like that. And another thing I was going to say too is,  when you’re talking to a real estate agent, say if you’re particular property would be open to say the Chinese market. Or something like that. What strategies has that real estate agent got that would attract the Chinese market?  There might be different marketing skills for that.   How can they market to the Chinese?   Can they contact different agents?  Will they offer different platforms to market to the Chinese? Will they go on different programs? Whichever way that may be. Is the property close to a University or Hospital or something like that?  Or is it located close to a school that maybe you can put some notices on the notice board at the University or somewhere close buy – let people know that a house is coming up for sale in that area, or something like that. Or if it’s a block of land,  also contact the developers direct and things like that. Don’t just advertise and put and add in the paper or online. How will they actually go out and market that property and sell that property?   Will they contact people that are on their database before, rather than just putting an ad in the paper. Go and actually ring those people that have called before about different properties. Darren: So, would you say then, sorry. We’ll just say maybe then marketing is more of the strategy of selling the property. Lisa: Yes. Marketing is the whole thing… Advertising is for example just promoting your properties specifically.  An ad in the paper or just your ad on RealEstate.com. It’s everything relating to a particular property.  Flyers for that particular property.   Specific advertising. So marketing, examples of marketing is marketing yourself through a podcast, video marketing for your office, your team. Promoting all different things in your office and that might be…. I have for real estate agents, I call it the marketing umbrella. And some of the things that I’ve got -  is different ways of making the phone rings. So you know, newspaper, database, and all that sort of thing. And you’ve got letterbox drops, you’ve got flyers that you send out to absentee owners, so people that own property in the area but live elsewhere get to know you….. So that’s kind of like, you know.. you do something that’s different to what others do.. not just putting an ad in the paper. We’ve got thank you cards, you send thank you cards to people, you do editorials. When you sell a property to somebody,  you can do a nice bottle of wine with your label on it or something like that. That sits on their cupboard or their bar for people to look at. And say your photo frames with the sold sign on it with the people standing out on front of the house -   there’s a cap or a cup with your name on it. People do fridge magnets, I’m not a fan of fridge magnets - I’ve listed lots of properties from people where other agents had fridge magnets (laughing).  So it’s just all sorts of different things to get your name out there. Things that are different to the other agents. And as I’ve said it’s offline and online marketing - so actually if your listeners are interested, my new book is out, it’s called “Secret Agents” and on my website it’s called www.TheRealEstateHotline.com.au and I’m actually giving away a free audio copy of the book at the moment. So that’s all about real estate marketing so it goes into the whole thing. It goes into offline marketing/ online marketing. How to get the phone to ring and all that sort of thing. It’s written for real estate agents but it can actually can be put into any business model. That’s something that your listeners can just opt in and get the book for free and that’s everything real estate marketing.   Darren: Thanks for that opportunity. And I’m sure some of you will get in touch…. Lisa: Yes Darren: So obviously this show is called Property Secrets.  So I want to be able to dig in a little bit deeper. So obviously we’ve been having a chat about trying to find the best real estate agent and we’ve talked a little bit about their negotiating skills, marketing and some of the questions we might ask. We’ve thought about what goes on from the outside. Is there a particular secret or something that you can think of from your perspective…. That you would know straight away that says.. that’s the better agent and the not so good agent and then we can maybe learn from it as well? Lisa: To me Darren, I really just think it’s that  ‘like, know and trust factor’. I really think to really be comfortable with the agent. You know…who you’re going to choose, because I’ve spoken to people before that have said ‘Look, I’d like to go with that agent, because you know I really like them and I trust them. But this agent seems a lot more gung ho.  and I don’t think he tells the truth all the time but I think he might get me a better deal’. Go with your gut feeling, really sort of feel who you feel comfortable with it’s a big decision in choosing a real estate agent and you’ve got to make the right decision. You’ve got to be comfortable with them. They’re dealing with a lot of money. It’s your biggest asset most of the time. And you’ve really got to trust that person. So I think really the trust and that’s something researching online - it’s something that is really going to help you get a good idea of who that person is. What their values are, whether they align with you and as I’ve said… you know whether they are really getting out there and promoting themselves, their office, their properties for sale . Really going the extra mile in being a buyer magnet, because that’s who you really want to go to. Somebody that the buyers are calling.  They say ‘I’ve got to go with Darren because he’s always out there, and he’s everywhere I go,  that’s where he is.’ And really that to me is the agent that you have got to go with.   Darren: It’s really, when you think about it, the agent has a lot of control over this whole process. It’s a little bit like black box, obviously, hopefully if you have a good agent they should be communicating with you but really you’re handing over your house to them and saying please do a good job and get me the most amount of money you can. And then you sort of sit back on the sidelines and just have to watch from the outside, So really, if you don’t trust and feel confident they going to do the right thing by you then, how are you going to know. Lisa: Exactly. It’s too scary, it’s too scary. Yes. Just make sure you like them, you trust them and that’s everything to me. Darren: The other thing. I find with real estate - buying real estate. selling real estate. People don’t necessarily realise that it’s real money. You know. They don’t realise that, you know, going that extra time to the buyer and gets maybe and extra $10,000. Or the fact that they market slightly better or negotiate better and that might be an extra . 10 or 20 or 30.  You know if they can make an extra $40,000.   How long would it take you to save $40,000?  Lisa: Yes. Darren: For a lot of people, that might be years and years and years -  It might be 10 years to save $40,000. So the fact you’ve, you know, someone that you can trust them enough to do the right thing to get the extra few cents. People drive across town to use their shopper dockets to save a few cents on fuel. Lisa: That’s right. Exactly.   Darren: This happens to me a lots… I get an offer and I go back to the owner and I say we’re not going to accept that - we’re going to go back’. They’re like ‘no, no’. And I’m like ‘No, we’re going back. ‘No, don’t go back’. And I’m like ‘but it’s real money’. Like if I can get you an extra thousand dollars…… that’s a thousand dollars. It’s better for you, my job is to get you the most amount of money and that’s the thing. That’s one thing I’m constantly telling people, it’s like ‘this is real money you’re talking here. It’s not make believe’. Lisa: People get so blasé - like you say spending extra dollars here or  there. And that’s again in the negotiation. Go with the agent that does that. Ask them.. How did your last negotiations go, or speak to some of their previous sellers. That’s part of marketing as well. To have video testimonials. The more video testimonials you can get on your website that people can watch ….and you can show people and say… say they are living in Smith Street. Well here’s actually a seller that I sold for in Smith Street and this is their video testimonial and this is what happened with them. That’s just gold. Darren: And the other thing too... is people obviously… well you might have been aware that there a negative perception about real estate agents from some people and so the thing is. Lisa: Noooooo. Darren: It doesn’t have to be confrontational. You don’t have to be, you were mentioning you found someone that you trust but you think this other guy is a dodgey….  you think he might be able to get you a higher price.. In reality you don’t have to be dodgy you don’t have to scam people, you don’t have to try and rip people off to get the highest price. Lisa: Yes. Darren: Just say hey ‘The more you offer the more chance you’ve got of getting it’. You know I’ve got other offers and you’ll be honest and upfront with them. And people sort of feel like it has to be this, you know competing against each other and win-lose scenario. But I don’t feel like it has to be like that. Lisa: No. I think you know, we’ve got to be proud to be real estate agents.  We’ve really got to be proud of our profession and what we do and it’s like anything – there’s bad fish in every pond (laughing). Darren: (Laughing). Lisa: You can just do your best and represent you and represent your company. And that’s all that you can do. Yes. You just do your best.  Darren: Fantastic. That’s great advice. And it’s good that we sort of break it down to really with just dealing with people at the end of the day. That’s what real estate is. Selling a property. Buying a property. It’s all about dealing with people. So if you find someone you can engage with and you can trust,  that’s probably the most important thing I think. Definitely good advice.  People who may want to get in touch with you… to find out a little bit more about some of your trainings or maybe they are still struggling trying to work out which agent to go with. What’s the best way that people can get in touch with you. Lisa: Sure. My website is www.TheRealEstateHotline.com.au and that’s pretty easy. And that ‘s got all of my contact details. And as I said my free audio book.., I think, that would be really helpful for a lot of people as well, just to see how you can market properties in different ways and that sort of things.  Darren: And we’ll be able to find that on the website or Google your name and find it somewhere. Lisa: Yes. My website.. and yes… I’m everywhere online.  http:www.TheRealEstateHotline.com.au Darren: Alright. Thank you for that. Lisa: (Laughing). Darren: Thanks for sharing today. I’m sure our listeners have learned a lot obviously. I found it really interesting as well. I really appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us. Lisa: Thanks Darren.

This Episode’s Focus on Strengths In this episode, Lisa has a fun conversation with Melissa Dinwiddie. Melissa is a multi-talented, creative person who lights up your day with her voice and enthusiasm! She helps her clients to use their strengths to get their mojo back when they feel like their innovation gene has left the building. You’ll find lots of ideas to spark your creative mojo in this episode. Plus, you’ll hear about her “Passion Pluralite” life, as she calls it, so listen in. You’ll walk away with a newly formed opinion of what’s possible for a multi-passionate person. It’s inspiring to see someone who wouldn’t settle for “one thing” or one activity driving her entire career path. As she’s working with her clients, Melissa always keeps in mind her Top 5 Talent Themes from the Clifton StrengthsFinder: Connectedness, Achiever, Input, Futuristic, and Positivity. You’ll hear why this combination of Talents makes Melissa one of the most knowledgeable, multi-talented, creative people you will ever meet.   What You’ll Learn Find your unique you. Melissa Dinwiddie is a multi-talented woman who has many different interests. She knows a lot about a lot of things. She always took for granted that she had so many interests, until she had a conversation with a client that led to a life-altering Ah Ha moment. In that moment, she realized that she had a unique gift, and that her Connectedness and Positivity Strengths made her a natural at consulting and collaborating with others. This led to her career working with clients to improve their creativity – which leads to innovation, increased profitability, and achievement. Use your Strengths. Connectedness and Positivity also enable her to look for meaning and connection all around her. She is always using that information to figure out how she can help her clients. Always say “Yes, and…” Improv class, which is one of Melissa’s newer hobbies, taught her to always say “Yes, and…” instead of “Yes, but…” because when you say it, you keep thing going and growing. This approach generates more new ideas, and allows for more creativity. Saying “but” is really just another way of saying no. It shuts down creativity. It leaves your team with more potential conflict and stifled creativity. Adding many ideas to the big mosh-pit brings forth more possibilities, and will empower your team members. When people are scared that they’re gonna be cut down, they become afraid to speak up (and you might be missing the best idea yet). Understand your Strengths…to overcome them. This might sound counter-intuitive, yet Melissa gives a great example when speaking about her Achiever Talent Theme. In the past, her need to achieve kept her stuck in self-perfection. By understanding how the Achiever Strength has the possibility to (counter intuitively) limit her ability to finish projects, she has developed self-compassion. She now considers herself to be a “recovering perfectionist”. So, if you tend to be a perfectionist at work, remember, everything doesn’t always have to be perfect; sometimes it just needs to get done. Give yourself a break! Lisa adds that the Achiever Talent Theme in its pure form is all about completing tasks and getting to the finish line. She hypothesizes that Melissa’s other StrengthsFinder Talents may be playing into her perfectionist tendencies too. While her Achiever wants to get things done, her Input will want to keep sponging up learning and insights that broaden her view of the project. Speaking of opening up possibilities, her Futuristic Talent will keep her in constant “what-if” mode. The fascination and vision of what can be can also keep you in rework mode. And her Connectedness Talent could have event played into her perfectionist tendencies because she sees connections and wants to share them with other people. Imagine when she’s creating courses and wants to keep tinkering so that every person with every perspective can get what they need. Ahhh, feeding your talents can be so energizing. And, sometimes, they can derail your progress if you’re not keeping an eye on the outcomes you set out to achieve. Schedule sandbox time every day. Our modern lives are super-busy, and often jam-packed with activities and projects every single day (even the weekends). Melissa suggests you spend 15 minutes every day relaxing, like you used to do as a kid. Play in the sandbox, doodle on paper, or go for a walk – whatever floats your boat. She’s proven that just that short amount of downtime can rejuvenate your creativity, and you will have a much easier time coming up with new ideas or finishing projects you’ve neglected. So schedule a short break time every day, and see what happens. Finding your “true passion” takes practice. People often ask career coaches and StrengthsFinder consultants how they can find their “true passions”. Melissa has an answer for them: Go out and try different things. She cites the example of learning to dance, another recent hobby. It took her 3 – 4 years of different types of dancing to figure out that she loves salsa and Argentine tango. In the work environment, you may be in a role you don’t love. Maybe you even hate your job. Look at the tasks your perform, and pay attention to what you actually do enjoy. Then find ways to get more of them added to your job responsibilities. If you stick with it, you’ll end up happier, more successful, and your business will be more profitable. Remember, knowing your Strengths and understanding them can have a huge impact on your personal and professional lives. So go out there and create.   Resources of the Episode To connect with Melissa and grab some creativity resources, check out her website. You can also connect with her on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Ready to live a full-color life? Melissa’s Live Creative Now podcast is filled with practical tips and inspiration on creativity and creative productivity. Feeding your creative hungers is one of the fastest ways to happiness, joy, and self-fulfillment. Not only will you feel more alive, it’s how you will change the world!   Subscribe To subscribe and review, here are your links for listening in iTunes and Stitcher Radio. You can also stream any episode right from the website. Subscribing is a great way to never miss an episode. Let the app notify you each week when the latest episode gets published.   StrengthsFinder Mini-Course For Managers If you’re a people-manager and you want to sharpen your strengths based support, come join our monthly mini-course. We don’t charge for this because we want to help you keep the StrengthsFinder momentum going. Teams who receive strengths feedback have 8.9% greater profitability. Yowza! Sounds like a great reason to join. Source:  Asplund, J., & Blacksmith, N. “Strengthening Your Company’s Performance.” Gallup Business Journal.   Go Live Your Talents Remember, using your strengths every day at work makes you a stronger performer. Go claim your talents and share them with the world! Read the full conversation: Lisa: Today, this show is all about using your natural talents to unleash your creative side at work. Your guest is so super interesting. She's actually dedicated her career to instigating creativity around the world. She works with teams to help them get their Mojo back when they feel like their innovation gene has left the building. She might even change your mind today about how very important play is at work. And speaking of play on the literal side, your guest plays the Ukulele and even brings that into her work world. So get ready. You're about to see how your creative expression can help you offer your value to the world. So Melissa Dinwiddie, welcome to the show. Melissa: Wow. Thanks Lisa. That was like the greatest intro ever. Lisa: It could have only been better if I had primed you for it so that you could have your Ukulele ready to play a little tune. Right. So, okay. You know, this show, it's all about exploring strengths from every angle. We're getting a unique angle of creativity today and we're bringing in strengths to that. So when you mentioned to me that when you first considered your top five StrengthsFinder talents that the one called Input was interesting to you because at first you didn't see that as something special and you. So tell us more about how that went down for you. In your mind, how did you open yourself up to the idea that it could actually be a superpower that you were overlooking? Melissa: I was doing a trade with a woman who was, at the time, my yoga teacher and she's also a life coach and so she was trading coaching. She was giving me some coaching and I was creating a website for her. It was maybe the third time that she had asked me about how to do something inside of a WordPress website, upload an image or create a new page or something, and I was showing her. And then she said, well, what if I want to do, you know, x, Y, z? And I said, oh, well there's three different plugins that I know of for that. And she looked at me and she said, how do you know all this stuff? And I said, I don’t know, I just, I made my own website a number of times so I know this stuff. And she's like, I think you don't appreciate how that, you knowing all this stuff, like that's not normal, that's normal in a really cool, really cool way. Melissa: Like you could, you could do consulting and you know, Blah Blah Blah. And it, it was that moment that made me realize, wow, this is something that's unusual about me in a good way. And it made me flash back to a moment, years earlier, this would have been back in the late 90’s, mid 90’s when I had started doing calligraphy, which became a huge passion of mine and that ultimately turned into a career. But at this point I was still a relatively new calligrapher and I was at a workshop and it was one of the first workshops I had been to with this calligraphy guild that I had joined. And somebody asked about a tool called an automatic pen. Well, what is an automatic pen and how is that different from, you know, this other kind of pen? Well, I, when I got into calligraphy, I had taken, like I'd ordered all the, there were two big stores that had, at the time, this was really before the Internet took off, so they had these paper catalogs. So of course I had ordered these paper catalogs and that was my bedtime reading. I would go to bed and pour through these catalogs and read all the details about every single tool and every single book. And so I just knew all this stuff. And so here I was, I'd been doing calligraphy for, you know, less than a year or something, and I was spouting off “well and automatic pen is its way and it works in this way and the way it's different from quick pan is blah blah”. And I remember the people looking at me like, are you an alien? Like they just didn't know you've been, I've been doing calligraphy for eight years and you just started, eight months ago, how do you know all this stuff? Melissa: And I, didn't realize that that was, I didn't have a word for it. I was just who I was. So I didn't realize that it was unique or unusual or a particular strength. And it just was this quirky thing about me that I didn't even realize was quirky. So yeah, that, was probably of my StrengthsFinder strengths. That was probably the first one that I went, oh yeah, that I can totally see as a strength because the things that I'm passionate about, I dive in and I learn everything that I can about them because that's what I do and then it nothing makes me happier than sharing that knowledge with other people, so it's a natural for consulting. Lisa: So cool. I love when I have clients with Input. It is so much fun to hear because they love going deep and gathering all the information and learning about a topic and then really directing it to what they're into, whether it's a hobby or work and then sharing it and it becomes such a collaboration strength too because you can add so much value because you realize, oh, not everyone does that. I mean, if I know if I got into calligraphy, I would flip through and look at the pretty pens and that's about it. I didn't know anything about any specs. Melissa: Right, right. Yeah, it, it definitely comes in really handy. The other one, I'm number five for me is Positivity and that one I recognized right away and people are always telling me, Oh my God, you have so much energy and you're such a cheerleader, you know, and that's just my personality. I hadn't really thought of that as a particular strength either, but I see it like I use that every day and the work that I do with clients and the groups that I lead that, that I am always essentially cheering people on. I mean not with like pompoms or something, but you know, I always have a positive spin on things and that it's not pollyannaish. It's just, it's just how I am. I think actually that's quite related to my top strength of Connectedness, which I mean I read that and when that's a strength, what? Lisa: That one always surprises people. They go, Huh, I would never think of that one. Melissa: Never would have thought of it. But I think that really ties in with my Positivity that this sort of outlook of always finding meaning and connection and you know, there's always this sense that everyone and everything is connected and I'm not like a religious person, but I'm it definitely infuses kind of everything I do Lisa: Well, knowing a little bit more about you and how you bring play into your work and how you’re an improviser, that's a high Positivity. It just makes complete sense because there's a fun-loving elements of it. It's finding the good times and things like if you're going to be here on the planet, go have a good time while you're at it, why not? And that tends to be one of the outlooks of people with high Positivity. So when I saw that and then knew that you were into play and Improv, I thought, oh well, it's just so perfect. Melissa: Yeah. And of course the sort of core piece of Improv is to say “yes, and”. Lisa: Yes, please say more about that. How that has shown up at work for you? Because most of the corporate people I work with are completely unfamiliar with Improv. Maybe you can talk about how that looks for people in a meeting or how that looks for people in either supporting each other's ideas versus squashing it if they gave it a “yeah, but.” Melissa: That got really clear for me when I think it was like my first Improv class, I've been doing improv for about three years now and although I've been improvising, interestingly enough, I've been drawn to improvisational creative forms for a really long time. For example, I got into salsa dancing and Argentine tango and those are purely improvisational dance forms. They are based on a vocabulary of movement and each social dance has its own vocabulary of movement, but within that vocabulary it is 100 percent improv and then when I got into music, the music that I was drawn to was jazz, which is an enormous umbrella that covers so many different styles of music within it, but the one thing that is a consistent among all of them is that there have improvisational elements, so it's really not that big of a surprise that I would end up doing improv. Melissa: Now I can connect that all together. My very first improv class, there was an exercise where a group of us were sitting up on the little stage area. We were supposed to pretend that we were in a meeting creating, we're talking about creating some, I don't know, some random object that we made up on the spot and about how to market it, I think. And so the first part of the exercise was that whenever anybody says something, let's, you know, let's throw a big party with confetti and invite the whole town or you know, whatever it was we were supposed to respond with, “yes, but,” and then add something. Right. So we did that for a while and then we stopped, and we replayed the same scene essentially. But this time whenever somebody gave an idea, the response was to be “yes, and”, and what was so interesting was when we did the “yes but” or “well, but” it would turn into just squashing, squashing just that: No, no, no, no, no. And it stopped everything where when the exercise was “yes, and” it became this like crazy mashup and it just kept growing and growing and growing and growing. And when you bring that “yes, and” to say a meeting where you're generating ideas or something and if you can respond to somebody else from that space of “yes, and” it opens up so many possibilities, you know, there's time later where you can refine things and cut things out and look at the, you know, the reality of our budget is limited to x or whatever. But to generate ideas, you have to be in that space of “yes, and”, and people don't like to put an idea out there if they know that there's a chance that it's going to be cut down. Right. Nobody likes that. That feels terrible. So that's a really important place to bring that Improv scale of “Yes, and”. Lisa: I love the example too, of how you used it and actually had the contrast of the “yes, but” or the “well, but” with the “yes, and in the same situation because right, it just stops all the momentum and turns everything. And it's kind of like the eeyore moment. Melissa: Totally. Yeah. And “yes, but” is really another way of saying “no” Lisa: it true. Another thing that you're getting me thinking about reflecting on a work day and how you can have these breakthroughs and also sparked me to think about something you mentioned about your Achiever talent, how when now when you look back on a work day, you can kind of see that when you're fueled up, it's because you've achieved something and felt productive and that you feel frustrated when you're not. What does that process look like for you? And just exploring them and seeing how they show up. Melissa: That one for me, in some ways it feels like as a liability as much as a strength only because, my history is being way too much of a perfectionist. I mean, I am now a card carrying him perfectionist, which means a recovering perfectionist. It's the same thing, which means basically that I treat myself with self-compassion. I was so stuck in perfectionism. I mean my Achiever strength was, you know, so blown out of proportion, there was no balance to it. There was nothing, nothing connected with the Achiever that you know, just sort of say it's okay. You get to be a human being, you get to be human. What ended up happening was, I mean, I call myself an artist. I had a career, a business. I still have a business and our business primarily making Jewish marriage contract. It's basically a side business these days. It used to be my main business and for about a decade while I was making my living from my art, I didn't create anything for myself purely for play, except once a year I would go on a retreat with my calligraphy guild and then I would do some things for myself, but the whole rest of the year, all the other 360 days of the year, the only art I ever created was to other people's specifications and partly or a big chunk of that was because I was so trapped in perfectionist paralysis that anything that I would create, I would think, well that's not good enough. That's crap. And so it became so painful to try to do anything that I just didn't do it. But I was in such denial about it that I told myself, you know, I bought into the story, I created this story that it was because I just didn't have time and it wasn't until February 1st 2011 when I was actually interviewing an artist for my first online course that I created called the thriving artists project and this particular artist mentors other artists who want to have fine art, you know, professional fine art gallery, exhibiting art careers. Melissa: And they get stuck in resistance as anybody else on the planet. Surprisingly enough. And so this artist that I was interviewing would tell her mentees, if you can't put 15 minutes a day into your art, you're making an excuse. And she was just talking about what she told her mentees. But in that moment, I was so nailed. She was, she was talking to me. She didn't realize she was talking to me, but she was saying to me, and by the time I got off that phone call first I got very defensive inside. But then I realized, oh my God, she is right. For the past decade I have been making an excuse because of fear, and so that day, and it was February 1st 2011, I committed to putting 15 minutes a day into making time for the joy of creative sandbox time that you talk about. Lisa: Is that your creative sandbox time? Melissa: Absolutely. That is. I didn't have that terminology at that point, but yeah, that's, that's my creative sandbox time. That is my playtime where in fact, in order to get myself into that head space where I could put even just 15 minutes into making art, I had to set up a bunch of sorts of ground rules for myself and it started off with maybe four or five. You know, it's all about the process. It's not the product let go of the outcome. When you get to the place where, you know, it's not done yet, it needs something, but you're not sure what and you're afraid to try anything because you might ruin it. One of my rules was go ahead and ruin it. And over a period of a two or three years that expanded into 10 rules for the creative sandbox. It's now what I call my creative sandbox manifesto. Melissa: And the sandbox image was because I realized at one point that I wasn't taking time to do art. I'd started making some art, but the art that I was making, I stopped after a while, a couple of weeks into it or something, I just wasn't getting to my art table anymore and I couldn't figure out why because I wanted so badly to get back to making art. And one day I was looking at the table and I realized, oh my God, the art that I'm making right now has nothing different from when I'm working for a client. So it feels like work to me. It was very meticulous. It was very design-y. There was nothing improvisational about, there was nothing playful about it. It was the opposite of play. And I realized it was like this light bulb went off over my head and that's when I thought I need to play. Melissa: I need to be like my little four-year-old nephew playing in a sandbox, making messes, thinking, oh, what would happen if I poured water on this? What would happen if I did this? That's the headspace that I needed to be in. And so that's, what I develop those, those rules to help me get into that headspace. Lisa: It's so cool. And the boy, I mean, you know that in the corporate world this is such a thing for people because you have this push-pull and your mind whether or not someone's specific talent is Achiever. People have a drive to get stuff done is push for the next thing, but then you know you need white space. You have to explicitly sometimes not manage yourself to a goal or you burn yourself out. And there's this internal fight thing and you even sparked for me a thought that takes it beyond the moment to moment push-pull, but even the overall career stress that people put themselves under when they think of finding their passion or finding their calling. Lisa: And I, think I remember you talking about callings as an elusive thing and that it's normal to resist them and refuse the call, that sort of thing. And I'd love to hear… you just got me sparked on that idea to what's your take on work as a calling and what do you do for those people who are beating themselves up over the fact that they feel like they don't have one? Melissa: Oh my God. So that makes me think about a conversation that I had a number of years ago with a woman in my synagogue and I was talking about this stuff was pretty new to me then I was like, wow, I'm discovering this new direction for my life or I'm helping people get connected to their creative side, which for most of us has been, you know, got quashed down pretty early, including me. Melissa: I mean a lot of people get quashed down at age five or six or something was like age 13 when I stopped making art. But for most of us that that gets really squashed and you know, so I was finding my passion again and our passion number 17 or whatever. So I figured out that I have a lot of them and this woman said, well, what do you do if you don't, if you don't have a passion. And I was stumped. I did not know how to answer her question. And it was only later when I was reading an article by somebody who I think she calls herself like the passion mentor or something, I can't remember, but she was writing about how, you know, passions, we have this idea that you're going to have this Eureka moment. You're going to open a door and boom. Melissa: Yeah, that's my passion, I found it. And the reality is, even though I spent, I can't tell you how many times I've told the story of various passions I've had in my life: dance, calligraphy, getting back to social dancing, writing, improv, music. So many different passions. And the story has always been, oh, you know, then I discovered this and that became my next passion. But that's not really what happened. Really, what happened was with dance, I was too scared to try dancing as a little kid. I had some movement classes when I was like four. And then I had friends who were in ballet, but I had this image of the mean ballet teacher with the big stick who would like hit you if you don't do things right or. So I never took any dance classes. And then in I think my freshman year in high school, some friends of mine, we got together, and we took a class at a community center. Melissa: We thought it was going to be, you know, mtv kind of how to dance to Madonna's material girl or something, you know, like the music video kind of dance. And it was actually, it was a modern dance class, which I didn't realize was much more classical style. And we were like, wow, this is lame. So I didn't, you know, I ended that class and forgot about it. So finally, you know, years later after, you know, first thinking about dance, I took a class at this local dance school and that's the moment where I went, oh my God, I want to do this every day. But it was, you know, three or four years of, tipping my toe into different kinds of dance before I discovered that dance school and Bingo had my Eureka moment. Every passionate I've ever had has been like that. Melissa: You have some kind of interest in something enough to try it. And you know, maybe the first time it doesn't do anything for you. But for some reason you go back to it at some point again and maybe the next time you find something new in that and eventually you know, you try it a little more and then it starts to develop a little more meaning for you. And then you dive in a little bit deeper and it's the sort of back and forth thing and it happens, you know, much more organically. It's much more like, you know, there are people out there in the world who feel like they had this instant, you know, love at first sight moment with their spouse or their partner. Right? But most people, it didn't actually happen that way with me, my husband, it took me two and a half years to see him as a contender and, he's like best match I could ever imagine for myself. Melissa: And that's what it's like with, with our passions for activities or pursuits. Lisa: What a good metaphor because it is like, I mean I can see the relationship metaphor so strongly that you meet somebody and then you think, hey, I actually enjoyed my time there, or I feel better when that person enters the room. Then when they leave the room and then you think, well, I'm going to hang out with that person some more, and it's the same with responsibilities and tasks in the work that you do. You can say, oh, that things kind of neat. I've never done it. I'm going to hang out with that thing a little bit more. And then you start exploring all the offshoots of it and it's so much like that at work and people for whatever reason, feel like there should be the Eureka moment you talked about and not the process of experimenting and going, okay, that thing's cool. I'm going to follow that path and all of the arms and legs that it has, and then you find that one thing that's super awesome and really fuels you up and I don't know why it's like that, but it does make me sad because a lot of people beat themselves up because they haven't found “the calling” or “the passion” and I know you use that term passion, plural light and looking at the plural like we have. We love a lot of things. Yeah, you have a lot of hobbies. You have a lot of interests, so let yourself feel that way about your work as well and go explore them. Maybe we can end with that exploration combined with how you explore your creative energy through your doodles because I think that's so fascinating and people will dig finding their own version of what you do with your doodling. Will you share about that? Melissa: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So what I know about myself is that if I don't get a little bit, at least a little bit of time in the creative sandbox every day, my day doesn't go as well. It just, it makes me happy. It feeds me, it nourishes me. I also know that, uh, the thing I do first is the thing that gets done. So if I want to make sure that I get something into my day, it works best if I get it in first thing. I was not making, not making time for my creative play and realized I have to do it like before I even get out of bed. So I figured out, well, you know, I can bring a sketchbook and a pen, have it on my bedside table and then I can draw first thing in the morning. And so I set a timer for 15 or 20 minutes and I doodle first thing in the morning and I intentionally call it doodling because I want to be in that space of Improv. Melissa: That space of being in the creative sandbox like a four-year-old playing in the sand so that it's all about exploration and following my curiosity and not about trying to make something perfect or even good. And so it's just been an incredible self-growth experience to do this for the past, well, it's really since the start of the year, so it's been three months that I've been doing this. Every day I spend, you know, 15 or 20 minutes usually with a pen and some paper and a sketchbook, just doodling. It's like a spiritual, a spiritual practice because you learn so much about yourself. You know? Just today, there was a page where I had started something and I got really frustrated with it weeks back because I could see that it was going to require all this meticulous work that I just didn't want to invest in. It was going to drive me straight into that perfectionist place, which I don't like. I don't want to be in. And I came back to it today and thought, oh well I don't have to look at it that way I could come at it from a creative sandbox mindset and not worry about if these lines are perfectly rounded or whatever. And I was able to come back to that piece that I had totally rejected and really enjoy it and learn something and kind of expand my ability to break down those perfectionist walls from this one little doodle. So I highly recommended it. And it doesn't have to be pen and paper. I mean, you could do it with sound, you could do it with movement. You can do it with, you know, they're just so many ways that you can express yourself in, the equivalent of a doodle. Lisa: And I even do my white space. It's not quite my creative sandbox, but just my white space to clear my brain. My office is at home and in the woods and I take walks with the dogs and I just insert them in the middle of the day to give myself that moment. To not be distracted, to not be listening to shows. To not be learning, to not be in a meeting and it clears, it clears the space in a different way. And I'm the uber efficient. I mean I get so caught up that I'll listen to podcasts while I'm in the shower just because I want every moment to be so productive. And so it's that moment where I go, no, I'm just breathing, I'm listening to the wind listening to the birds and just let it rest for a minute. And then I get all these strokes of brilliance in that time and the sandbox time and the white space time. Lisa: I hope for everyone reading that this gives you some inspiration to bring that creativity back into your work day. To try yes, and if that's not something that's been part of your vocabulary, that you give that, some, just give that some air go, try that. It's easy to implement at work. Just show up and say “yes, and”, and your next set of meetings and don't squash an idea even if the squash comes to your mind, let it ride, let it ride and do that later. And let the ideas and the big breakthroughs happen. So thank you everyone for reading this Lead Through Strengths today. Melissa, this has been great. The readers are going to want to check you out. You have a show to tell them about, tell us how they can find you and your doodle delicious life. Melissa: Oh sure. Well, my website is Melissadinwitty.com.com, but that's hard to spell so you can also get to the exact same place livingacreativelife.com and my podcast is livecreativenow, which you can find there are. You can go to live creativenow.com, which will take you there as well. Lisa: Thank you. And we'll put all of that in the show notes so you guys can find it super easily and we'll get you her twitter and Instagram and Facebook links as well. So guys, remember using your strengths makes you a stronger performer at work. If you're always focused on fixing your weaknesses, always stuck in that perfectionist zone she's been talking about today then you're choosing the path of most resistance and you can choose instead to claim your talents and share them with the world.

Interviewer: I want to welcome Lisa Merrill to the call. Lisa is a registered dietitian, certified diabetic educator and exercise physiologist. Lisa, thanks for coming on the call with us Lisa: Thank you. Interviewer: Lisa, I wonder if you could … Continue reading → The post Lisa Merrill Discusses Her Dietitian Practice and Time Management appeared first on Health Practitioner Today.

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Lisa Rau Co-founder and Chief Executive Officer, Confluence Date: April 27, 2009 Lisa Rau: Confluence Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders, the CEO for the National Center for Women in Information Technology, or NCWIT. Today we're interviewing Lisa Rau, the CEO of Confluence Corp., as part of our NCWIT series "The Entrepreneurial Toolbox," and Lisa's going to talk to us today about everything you want to know about working with non-profits. We thought it would be especially interesting for this series to take advantage of Lisa's extensive experience working with non-profits and how they use technology and how it applies to social entrepreneurship. So, welcome, Lisa! Lisa Rau: Thank you! I'm glad to be here. Lucy: And with me today is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: Hello, I'm happy to be here. This is going to be an exciting interview for us because while our Internet radio show is strictly business, we do integrate various things where we help support non-profits and do interviews and provide links and so on, and so I can't wait to talk to Lisa. Lucy: Well, Lisa is a real role model in computer science. She has a Ph.D. in computer science and undergraduate degrees in EE and also has been in the IT industry for over 20 years. And she has extensive experience, as I mentioned, working with non-profits and I recently had the experience to chat with Lisa about this. So, very excited to talk to you about the non-profit space! Lisa: Great! Lucy: So, Lisa, tell us a bit about Confluence. What do you do? Lisa: Well, our mission is to provide information technology support and focus, of course, on the non-profit sector, and that's a wide variety of different kinds of things that's really based on what the non-profits have been asking us to do. Lucy: How did you come to focus on non-profits? What led you into that type of business? Lisa: Well, that's a good question. Many years ago, I had met a friend and a colleague who told me about his work providing technical support to non-profits and he was describing the wonderful people and the organizations and their mission that he interacted with and how rewarding he found the work was, and so when I next found myself in between jobs, a bunch of things all came together and that's where we came up with the name "Confluence." It was a "no time like the present" kind of thing and wanting to work for myself as an entrepreneur after 15, 20 years of working for someone else, wanting to create something of value, and then I had one of my close friends and colleagues, Jeff Sullivan, agree to come on board with me. We just jumped in. Larry: That's interesting. You've got to be certainly following your heart with a bunch of passion at that same time. Lisa: Absolutely. Well, of course we did our due diligence to make sure that there was a sound business model and that there really was a need for what we were thinking of offering, but since we couldn't be the do-gooders, we thought the next best thing was to help the do-gooders do better. Larry: Well, you know, they say there's quite a movement, almost a groundswell, of people really wanting to give back to the community. Of course, they've got to make a living and everything. So, for our listeners out there, could you explain the difference between working for a non-profit versus a for-profit? Lisa: Well, it ended up being different than I expected it would be coming from the for-profit world as I did. Of course, the non-profits are really focussed on their mission, and my experience has been that they tend to be less able or interested in investing in technology. I've been doing this for over eight years now. Most non-profits are really small, also. I think 90% are under a million dollars in revenue, so the majority of these organizations are just very small, so their use of technology is more limited and they also tend to have less in-house expertise. And they don't have, for example, a CTO, so they're going to turn to other outside organizations like ours for strategic support. And tech support providers in the for-profit world, there's a role for a CTO, but we as providers to non-profits have to be more versatile and strategic to provide a wide range of advice to them. Lucy: I have a follow up question to that. I also now run into more people now who are doing what I would consider non-profit work in a for-profit business model. So, do you see much of that, Lisa, sort of like "doing well by doing good for others." Do you see that type of business model very often? Lisa: Well, there's two types of business models that I've seen, and one is the classic, more social entrepreneurship where the idea is to use the profits for social benefit, or to leverage profits made in a for-profit business for philanthropy as in the Google Foundation and the Gates Foundation and so on. But I see a real role for traditional for-profit firms to support the non-profit sector. It's a very hard business because they don't have a lot of money and they are so small, but it does allow you to both come up with a sustainable business model, because that is a requirement for for-profit businesses, which I think is a better way to address the technology needs than having non-profit technology providers that may not have to provide a sustainable service. Lucy: Listeners to our podcast series will remember that we interviewed two non-profits, Witness and Kiva and their founders, and were really excited about their use of technology in a non-profit delivery. In Witness's case, it's the use of video to expose social atrocities around the world, and Kiva is microfinance. So, Lisa, where do you see the most innovative use of IT in the non-profit space? Lisa: Well, I think those are both really good examples of innovative use of technology, but from a bang-for-the-buck perspective, I think that what those systems really do is just get into more of the cultural mainstream and raise awareness for social causes and the potential for technology to assist with social causes, rather than the bottom line amount of money, for example, that's going to go through Kiva, or the real change that's going to happen just one by one. So, I think that the opportunity for social change is much more to create an environment as part of our culture that non-profits and social-oriented ventures are worth supporting and whether it's Green or whatever your passion may be. We have seen some other innovative uses, the Kiva and Witness that you cite are certainly very well-known ones. We've done a bunch of really fun things, like one of my favorites is for the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. We created a little application where you send a nugget through on a Google Maps kind of integration across 50 states and whoever gets their little chicken nugget across the 50 states wins, which was kind of a fun use of technology. Lucy: Cute. That's cool. Larry: Right. Have you ever done anything with Ashoka? Lisa: I have interacted with Ashoka. I haven't worked for them. Our company hasn't worked for them. I know a number of people who work there, actually one of my clients is from Samaritan Inns went over there to work for them. They're wonderful leaders. Larry: Yeah. All right, now what are some of the challenges, Lisa, that non-profits should be looking out for as it relates to IT? Lisa: Well, the main one is that a lot of people offer non-profits free or a low-cost donations. Sometimes the organizations think that because it's free they should try to use the technology, and it's very much a buyer beware. The other challenge is just that they don't really have as much internal expert advise, the smaller organizations, in selecting the right technical approach or managing technical projects. So, because these are often outside the organization's expertise they can be risky. We see a lot of overpaying, simply due to a lack of technical expertise or a lack of real experienced managing technology projects. So, I think a little bit of real expertise can go a very long way, and would be a good investment for organizations trying to think strategically. Lucy: So, the biggest mistake a non-profit can make in IT is? Lisa: Well, I think probably not spending enough, being "penny wise and pound foolish," I'd think, the most common mistake. I don't know if that counts as biggest. The biggest in terms of dollars is probably choosing the wrong software system. Lucy: Probably worse is having some money and spending it poorly. Lisa: Exactly. That's a lot of that "penny wise and pound foolish" mentality. I also think not understanding the strategic importance of technology, and how with the right investments you can save money for your mission just fearing technology and not trying. Lucy: Absolutely, the case. Well, now you've worked with lots of non-profits, and now I want you to put yourself in the seat of somebody starting a non-profit. What would you do first? Lisa: Well, the first thing I'd do would be really look around to see who was doing what else. I've noticed independent of our technology focus that there's just a lot of duplication out there. A lot of people startup non-profits because they want to do something that they love, and they don't really care if someone else is already doing that. So, it's a fairly inefficient delivery system. So, I would want to make sure that my non-profit was addressing a real gap in service and dealing with real needs. I would also want to outreach to other partners, and really try to work collaboratively with the other members of the environment. Larry: Boy! Lisa, this has been a great interview, and it's really a pleasure. Since you're the expert, what is the question or so that we haven't asked that we should have asked? Lisa: Well, certainly starting a business is very, very scary. I think it was the best decision I ever made. I certainly have never regretted choosing to do something with the potential for meaning. It's been extremely gratifying from that perspective, but very scary. Even though the non-profits are a very difficult business to work for, because again they are small, it's incredibly rewarding to see what they're doing, and being a part of the wonderful works that they're doing. Lucy: So tell us, in closing, where is Confluence heading? What's the future for you? Lisa: Well, we're still growing, which is good news in this economic downturn. We're always looking for good people. We've been forming a lot more partnerships this year with other for-profit companies to provide complimentary services. The main thing from a technology end that we've been doing recently is we've been implementing a bunch of new Websites, a lot of focus on the social networking, what's the so-called web 2.0 technology? That's been a big part of what we've been doing recently. Of course, just as any business grows, we've been changing and we're looking at internal reorganization. It doesn't sound too sexy, but that's the reality of businesses as they grow. They have to change. Lucy: So, say a bit about the social networking and how non-profits can and should take advantage of that new channel. Lisa: Well, it's another one of those kind of buyer beware areas, because there is so much buzz. A lot of what we do is just explain to our clients what that really means and what their options are. A lot of them want to dive right in and have a lot of little widgets on their Website to interact with their audience, but there's no one there to monitor that or to feed it to make it a vibrant community. So, it ends up kind of a detraction. So, we're very much interested in ensuring that what gets deployed is appropriate for the environment and not a field of dreams. We have seen a lot of movement towards that. It's been a little slower, but non-profits are all about building community outreach, advocacy, education. These are all things that social networking can be very instrumental in. Larry: So, if I understood you right, it's better to have one or two widgets that you can really work with, rather than the whole group of 7-10? Lisa: Absolutely. I've even seen organizations try to start small with just say a blog, and they're not able to keep that up, because they don't realize that the technology is the easy part. It's the organizational part, where someone actually has to write the blog, and post it, and review comments, and so on, that has to be on there to keep it fresh and worthwhile. Lucy: Well, that's really true for us at NCWIT. We find that we have lots of distribution channels, and keeping the content supplied to those channels is really quite tough. It's more than a full-time job. Lisa: That's exactly what I'm talking about, and building things smartly so that they're not overrun with spam, and not insecure, and so on. Lucy: Well, so maybe in closing, let me ask this; so I'm the CEO of a non-profit, and in advising me, where would you tell me to start in technology? What would be the first thing to look at or the second thing to look at? What kinds of things do you often say to people like me, as it relates to this example? Lisa: Well, I'm a very big fan of a process that we do, not just self-serving there, but it's a strategic technology assessment that comes in and interviews all of the stakeholders and inventories all of the assets. That process can give the organization a complete understanding of where the opportunities are, so they that can then prioritize them and come up with a specific plan for the next couple of years. That really helps a new organization to get started. Lucy: That sounds like a good process. Larry: Yeah. It sure does. By the way, starting in March 2001, it's kind of like starting in March 2009, economic wise. Lisa: Exactly. Lucy: Oh, starting over. Yeah. I got it. It took my brain a little while, but I did finally get that. Well, Lisa thanks very much. It was great talking to you. Lisa: Thank you. It was wonderful! Larry: It was a pleasure. Once again, Lucy, I don't know how you and your team line up all these magnificent people, but NCWIT.org, you've got some wonderful connections and interviews, but lots of information. I must say that it's a pleasure for w3w3.com to host, and also to have a special channel for all of these interviews where you can tune-in 24/7. Make sure you tell your friends about it, and by the way, Tweet about it if you would like. Lisa: Tweet about it, only if Lisa says it's OK. Man 1: Is it OK, Lisa? Lisa: Sure. Larry: All right. Lucy: OK. Thank you very much, Lisa. Lisa: OK. Thank you both. Lucy: That was great. We really do appreciate it, and I'll be in touch. Larry: All Right. Lisa: OK. Transcription by CastingWords Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Lisa RauInterview Summary: Lisa Rau wanted to create something rewarding, something of her own, something of value when she created Confluence. As she discusses here, entrepreneurship is scary but incredibly satisfying: "with the risks come the rewards." Release Date: April 27, 2009Interview Subject: Lisa RauInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 15:53