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Todd: Okay, so, I'm here with Jerri, and we are in Bangkok, Thailand, and she's Thai. And I thought we would talk about the interesting transportation systems of Bangkok.Jerri: Yes, very interesting.Todd: Yeah, Bangkok has so many ways to get around. So, the most common, of course, is the BTS.Jerri: Right.Todd: This is the over rail train, right?Jerri: Yes.Todd: And then there's the MRT? Okay, can you talk about them?Jerri: Yeah, so, these two are the new forms of transportation in Thailand. Well, not so new. I think about ten years now we've been having them. But they're probably the most common way to travel into the city. The sky train station is now expanding quite fast, so it's going to, like, other parts that are outside of Bangkok for the outer cities - for people from the outer city to travel into the main business district areas. Yeah, and the price range from 30, 35 baht to, like, 100 baht depending on how many stops you have to take. But it's becoming more and more popular, and so the rush hour, it's quite - it gets quite hectic. I think it can be regulated a little bit better. But I think, yeah, they're working on that.Todd: Yeah, I work in Tokyo and Bangkok both, and when I - when I first came here, the trains were empty. The BTS...Jerri: Right.Todd: ...and now they're like Tokyo.Jerri: Yes.Todd: They're on the same level of packed-ness. It's crazy.Jerri: Right. Yes, yes.Todd: Okay, so then how about the world-famous Thai taxis and tuk-tuks?Jerri: Okay, yes, for sure. So, I'll start with the tuk-tuks. The tuk-tuks are probably the most interesting way to get around town. You see them a lot in Bangkok because they attract tourists. So, you can get them - yeah, they usually - the thing to be careful with is that there's not really a fixed price, so you can get a little bit...Todd: Scammed.Jerri: Scammed, yeah.Todd: Yeah.Jerri: But, yeah. So, I would recommend just asking the locals, like, how- how much would it cost, like, from to get here to there, so you know, like, a little bit about the price range. But if you're - if you're here in Thailand for the first time, it's definitely the way to travel around. You get the wind in your face and, yeah, it's really nice. And then the taxi meters are also - there's more and more every day. And, yeah, it's - it's - it's, like, any other country, I guess. It's air-conditioned, and then the meter starts from 35 Thai baht.Todd: It's true. It is like any other country, but I would say they're very unique in their colors. So...Jerri: Oh, right. Yes, yes, yes.Todd: ...they have the very beautiful technicolor that you only see in Thailand. Yeah.Jerri: So, it goes from pink, green, bright-yellow, and they're all very bright, so...Todd: And orange, correct?Jerri: Yes, yes, yes.Todd: And they look so beautiful, actually. Yeah. Actually, going back to the tuk-tuks, one thing that's - I think - is interesting is that, obviously, they're used for tourists, but also local Thais I see use them kind of to transport a lot of bags and stuff. So, like, if they need to move a bunch of stuff...Jerri: Yes.Todd: ...like bags, or they need, like, I don't know, supplies for a restaurant or something like that...Jerri: Right.Todd: ...you'll see tuk-tuks moving things around.Jerri: Yeah, absolutely. And there's like different - different tuk-tuk sizes. So, some of them are - are more for like transportation, as you mentioned, and then we have more of, like, the bigger - similar to tuk-tuks, they're called songthaews, which you see in, like, the small little streets in certain neighborhoods that people need - just need to get to the main road.Todd: Can - now, can you describe what a songthaew looks like?Jerri: Yes, absolutely. It's like a truck but with a big open area in the back for people to hold onto the rails, so, yeah. I'm not sure if you can imagine the picture but - in a tuk-tuk - you get to sit - it fits about three people max...Todd: Yeah.Jerri: ..but songthaew - the back, the open-air area fits about 20 people.

Todd: Okay, so, I'm here with Jerri, and we are in Bangkok, Thailand, and she's Thai. And I thought we would talk about the interesting transportation systems of Bangkok.Jerri: Yes, very interesting.Todd: Yeah, Bangkok has so many ways to get around. So, the most common, of course, is the BTS.Jerri: Right.Todd: This is the over rail train, right?Jerri: Yes.Todd: And then there's the MRT? Okay, can you talk about them?Jerri: Yeah, so, these two are the new forms of transportation in Thailand. Well, not so new. I think about ten years now we've been having them. But they're probably the most common way to travel into the city. The sky train station is now expanding quite fast, so it's going to, like, other parts that are outside of Bangkok for the outer cities - for people from the outer city to travel into the main business district areas. Yeah, and the price range from 30, 35 baht to, like, 100 baht depending on how many stops you have to take. But it's becoming more and more popular, and so the rush hour, it's quite - it gets quite hectic. I think it can be regulated a little bit better. But I think, yeah, they're working on that.Todd: Yeah, I work in Tokyo and Bangkok both, and when I - when I first came here, the trains were empty. The BTS...Jerri: Right.Todd: ...and now they're like Tokyo.Jerri: Yes.Todd: They're on the same level of packed-ness. It's crazy.Jerri: Right. Yes, yes.Todd: Okay, so then how about the world-famous Thai taxis and tuk-tuks?Jerri: Okay, yes, for sure. So, I'll start with the tuk-tuks. The tuk-tuks are probably the most interesting way to get around town. You see them a lot in Bangkok because they attract tourists. So, you can get them - yeah, they usually - the thing to be careful with is that there's not really a fixed price, so you can get a little bit...Todd: Scammed.Jerri: Scammed, yeah.Todd: Yeah.Jerri: But, yeah. So, I would recommend just asking the locals, like, how- how much would it cost, like, from to get here to there, so you know, like, a little bit about the price range. But if you're - if you're here in Thailand for the first time, it's definitely the way to travel around. You get the wind in your face and, yeah, it's really nice. And then the taxi meters are also - there's more and more every day. And, yeah, it's - it's - it's, like, any other country, I guess. It's air-conditioned, and then the meter starts from 35 Thai baht.Todd: It's true. It is like any other country, but I would say they're very unique in their colors. So...Jerri: Oh, right. Yes, yes, yes.Todd: ...they have the very beautiful technicolor that you only see in Thailand. Yeah.Jerri: So, it goes from pink, green, bright-yellow, and they're all very bright, so...Todd: And orange, correct?Jerri: Yes, yes, yes.Todd: And they look so beautiful, actually. Yeah. Actually, going back to the tuk-tuks, one thing that's - I think - is interesting is that, obviously, they're used for tourists, but also local Thais I see use them kind of to transport a lot of bags and stuff. So, like, if they need to move a bunch of stuff...Jerri: Yes.Todd: ...like bags, or they need, like, I don't know, supplies for a restaurant or something like that...Jerri: Right.Todd: ...you'll see tuk-tuks moving things around.Jerri: Yeah, absolutely. And there's like different - different tuk-tuk sizes. So, some of them are - are more for like transportation, as you mentioned, and then we have more of, like, the bigger - similar to tuk-tuks, they're called songthaews, which you see in, like, the small little streets in certain neighborhoods that people need - just need to get to the main road.Todd: Can - now, can you describe what a songthaew looks like?Jerri: Yes, absolutely. It's like a truck but with a big open area in the back for people to hold onto the rails, so, yeah. I'm not sure if you can imagine the picture but - in a tuk-tuk - you get to sit - it fits about three people max...Todd: Yeah.Jerri: ..but songthaew - the back, the open-air area fits about 20 people.

Todd: So I'm here with Angela and she is a writer and a traveler, a teacher, a businesswoman, and you're also a mother.Angela: Yes. Twins.Todd: You have twins! That's amazing! Wow. And so you also are now what's called an empty nester. Can you explain what that means?Angela: It's the feeling that you get when you realize that you've worked hard for your kids all those years and now they're ready to leave. Because they're twins, the nest is going to be emptied completely at once.Todd: Yeah.Angela: And I would be in a house by myself. I did think though that my son would have stayed home forever, so I would never have gotten to a position of having an empty nest. And my daughter, she left a little bit earlier. But it was just the thought of, you know, you're in a house that your family's grown up in, what do you do now? Do you take in lodgers? Do you rent the house out? And that's when I made my decision to travel. It was a gap that I spotted because my kids were 18 at the time. It was likely that my daughter would have grandchildren at some point or I would have grandchildren, and she'd have children, and then it would not be possible to go away again. So I saw the gap.I rented the house out. And my son who was the last to leave the house, he said, “Mum, are you renting my room, as well?” I said, “Of course, I'm renting your room. You don't get a house with a teenager resident in it,” and he was absolutely flummoxed but he found somewhere to live. He's working. She's found somewhere to live, she's working. And I think that one of the things you can give your kids actually is independence. I think it's the biggest thing that you can give them.Todd: Yeah, back in the day, you know, it used to be that you would get kicked out of the nest. That was another phrase, you know.Angela: Yes.Todd: They'd say like, “Okay, when you're 18, your parents would give you that push like a mother bird. Go fly. Go do your thing.” And I think it's still a good thing, actually.Angela: I think it's a very good thing.Todd: You know, that you go out, you… I was not really kicked out but I did leave right away and it was a good experience.Angela: It's the best experience. You know, those years when you've got freedom, you got your friends. You're growing up. You're learning about the world. You should be out there by yourself.Todd: Now, you've done something against the grain. You went and traveled by yourself.Angela: Umm-hmm.Todd: And your gap year. Now in Asia where we are, this isn't really an empty nester culture. Like I don't know if they… Especially Thailand, they don't really push kids out of the house. People stay and live a little bit more. Have you noticed a difference like in the family dynamics now that you're in Bangkok?Angela: I think in Bangkok, in Thailand, and certainly at the other Southeast Asian countries I traveled, I've been amazed at how families operate and live together. I think I'm very saddened by my own circumstances in the UK, and lots of people in the UK where families are divided and they don't live together. They don't support each other. When I was living in Isaan, it was very obvious that families, because there are no social services, people have to work or they've got no money. So the parents would have to go to Bangkok or Phuket, or one of the tourist areas, and the children would be left with their grandparents in the village. So it was obvious, there were lots of children who were growing up with grandparents, aunties. But I looked at this and thought, “Well, these kids are living out in the village where it's safe, they're happy. You know, they grow up as a gang and they're loved.”Todd: Yeah, that's really nice. And since you mentioned that, one of the saddest things I ever saw unexpectedly was when I was in the Philippines. I was flying out, I was in the Philippines. I had a great time and when I was going, at the airport, they had this long line, and I didn't know what was going on. It was all these children and their mothers. I mean, we're talking dozens and it just… It seemed strange. And then it hit me, “Oh, because the Philippines have so many people that work overseas.” These were all mothers that were saying goodbye to their children.Angela: Yes.Todd: Because they had to go work overseas. And it's like I even get choked up now like thinking about it. It was just really powerful that like the people that have that situation, that those mothers, you know they don't want to leave their kid.Angela: Yeah.Todd: That's got to be really hard but they have to.Angela: But they have to.Todd: They have to go to wherever they're going to go in the world. Yeah, that was something. I'll never forget that.Angela: Yeah. I find families over here are just so willing to share. They share their food. They share their beds. They share their houses. In a way, that is just so different to what I've experienced in the UK.Todd: Yeah. That is true. That is true.

Todd: So I'm here with Angela and she is a writer and a traveler, a teacher, a businesswoman, and you're also a mother.Angela: Yes. Twins.Todd: You have twins! That's amazing! Wow. And so you also are now what's called an empty nester. Can you explain what that means?Angela: It's the feeling that you get when you realize that you've worked hard for your kids all those years and now they're ready to leave. Because they're twins, the nest is going to be emptied completely at once.Todd: Yeah.Angela: And I would be in a house by myself. I did think though that my son would have stayed home forever, so I would never have gotten to a position of having an empty nest. And my daughter, she left a little bit earlier. But it was just the thought of, you know, you're in a house that your family's grown up in, what do you do now? Do you take in lodgers? Do you rent the house out? And that's when I made my decision to travel. It was a gap that I spotted because my kids were 18 at the time. It was likely that my daughter would have grandchildren at some point or I would have grandchildren, and she'd have children, and then it would not be possible to go away again. So I saw the gap.I rented the house out. And my son who was the last to leave the house, he said, “Mum, are you renting my room, as well?” I said, “Of course, I'm renting your room. You don't get a house with a teenager resident in it,” and he was absolutely flummoxed but he found somewhere to live. He's working. She's found somewhere to live, she's working. And I think that one of the things you can give your kids actually is independence. I think it's the biggest thing that you can give them.Todd: Yeah, back in the day, you know, it used to be that you would get kicked out of the nest. That was another phrase, you know.Angela: Yes.Todd: They'd say like, “Okay, when you're 18, your parents would give you that push like a mother bird. Go fly. Go do your thing.” And I think it's still a good thing, actually.Angela: I think it's a very good thing.Todd: You know, that you go out, you… I was not really kicked out but I did leave right away and it was a good experience.Angela: It's the best experience. You know, those years when you've got freedom, you got your friends. You're growing up. You're learning about the world. You should be out there by yourself.Todd: Now, you've done something against the grain. You went and traveled by yourself.Angela: Umm-hmm.Todd: And your gap year. Now in Asia where we are, this isn't really an empty nester culture. Like I don't know if they… Especially Thailand, they don't really push kids out of the house. People stay and live a little bit more. Have you noticed a difference like in the family dynamics now that you're in Bangkok?Angela: I think in Bangkok, in Thailand, and certainly at the other Southeast Asian countries I traveled, I've been amazed at how families operate and live together. I think I'm very saddened by my own circumstances in the UK, and lots of people in the UK where families are divided and they don't live together. They don't support each other. When I was living in Isaan, it was very obvious that families, because there are no social services, people have to work or they've got no money. So the parents would have to go to Bangkok or Phuket, or one of the tourist areas, and the children would be left with their grandparents in the village. So it was obvious, there were lots of children who were growing up with grandparents, aunties. But I looked at this and thought, “Well, these kids are living out in the village where it's safe, they're happy. You know, they grow up as a gang and they're loved.”Todd: Yeah, that's really nice. And since you mentioned that, one of the saddest things I ever saw unexpectedly was when I was in the Philippines. I was flying out, I was in the Philippines. I had a great time and when I was going, at the airport, they had this long line, and I didn't know what was going on. It was all these children and their mothers. I mean, we're talking dozens and it just… It seemed strange. And then it hit me, “Oh, because the Philippines have so many people that work overseas.” These were all mothers that were saying goodbye to their children.Angela: Yes.Todd: Because they had to go work overseas. And it's like I even get choked up now like thinking about it. It was just really powerful that like the people that have that situation, that those mothers, you know they don't want to leave their kid.Angela: Yeah.Todd: That's got to be really hard but they have to.Angela: But they have to.Todd: They have to go to wherever they're going to go in the world. Yeah, that was something. I'll never forget that.Angela: Yeah. I find families over here are just so willing to share. They share their food. They share their beds. They share their houses. In a way, that is just so different to what I've experienced in the UK.Todd: Yeah. That is true. That is true.

Todd: So Katie, I want to go to the mall.Katie: Okay.Todd: Have you been to the new mall?Katie: Yeah, I actually went there just yesterday.Todd: Okay. So I want to buy some computer stuff. Is there a computer store?Katie: There are two computer stores.Todd: Really? Ooh, that's good.Katie: There's a computer store on the first floor, and then very close to that there's also a Mac store.Todd: Ooh, that's perfect. I want to buy a new Mac.Katie: Oh, me too.Todd: They're so expensive, though.Katie: Mm-hmm.Todd: Okay, what about books? I really like books. Is there a bookstore with English books?Katie: There's a huge bookstore on the fourth floor.Todd: Ooh, that's good.Katie: It's really big. And there are lots of English books you can read there.Todd: Oh, great. Nice. And how about the food there?Katie: The food's okay. There's a big food court on the third floor, and you can get a variety of food. You can get a Subway.Todd: Oh, that's good. I love sandwiches. Is the food good there, though?Katie: They don't have any sandwiches that I like, basically.Todd: Oh, really. Okay. So what else is there at the mall?Katie: Oh, there's so much at the mall. There's a café on the ground floor.Todd: Oh, nice.Katie: If you like drinking coffee.Todd: I do. I like to go and study and just relax.Katie: That's the perfect place for you, then.Todd: I like to people watch. Is it a good people-watching place?Katie: Oh, it's a great people-watching place.Todd: Oh, cool.Katie: The windows are really big, and you can see out onto the street.Todd: Oh, cool. What else is there? Is there a movie theater?Katie: Mm-hmm. There's a movie theater on the fourth floor.Todd: Oh, great. Now, do they have English movies?Katie: They have English and Japanese movies.Todd: Oh, that's good. I should watch some Japanese movies too.Katie: They're interesting.Todd: And how about food? I hear there's a new supermarket, a big supermarket there.Katie: It's pretty big. And you can get lots of food there. It's on the first floor.Todd: Okay. Is there anything else I should see?Katie: What about the roof garden?Todd: Oh, what is the roof garden?Katie: It's on the fifth floor, and it's, well it's on the roof, and you can see a beautiful view of the city. And there's also places for you to sit and just enjoy the view.Todd: Oh, nice. A roof garden, I like that.Katie: It's really nice.Todd: Now, do you buy clothes at the mall? Do they have nice clothing shops?Katie: Yeah, they have nice clothing shops. Some of them are a little bit expensive.Todd: Ah, yeah.Katie: And I like buying cheap clothes.Todd: Okay. When's a good time to go?Katie: I think the best time to go is probably weekdays.Todd: Okay. Why?Katie: If you go on the weekend, there are so many children there.Todd: Oh.Katie: Ugh. It's hard to walk around.Todd: Yeah, and we're teachers, we teach kids all day.Katie: Mm-hmm.Todd: Okay. I don't want to go then.Katie: No, me neither.Todd: Well, I want to go there next week, maybe Thursday night.Katie: Okay.Todd: Do you want to join me?Katie: Yeah, that sounds good. Maybe we can watch a movie.Todd: Cool. I'll buy you dinner.Katie: Sounds great.

Todd: So Katie, I want to go to the mall.Katie: Okay.Todd: Have you been to the new mall?Katie: Yeah, I actually went there just yesterday.Todd: Okay. So I want to buy some computer stuff. Is there a computer store?Katie: There are two computer stores.Todd: Really? Ooh, that's good.Katie: There's a computer store on the first floor, and then very close to that there's also a Mac store.Todd: Ooh, that's perfect. I want to buy a new Mac.Katie: Oh, me too.Todd: They're so expensive, though.Katie: Mm-hmm.Todd: Okay, what about books? I really like books. Is there a bookstore with English books?Katie: There's a huge bookstore on the fourth floor.Todd: Ooh, that's good.Katie: It's really big. And there are lots of English books you can read there.Todd: Oh, great. Nice. And how about the food there?Katie: The food's okay. There's a big food court on the third floor, and you can get a variety of food. You can get a Subway.Todd: Oh, that's good. I love sandwiches. Is the food good there, though?Katie: They don't have any sandwiches that I like, basically.Todd: Oh, really. Okay. So what else is there at the mall?Katie: Oh, there's so much at the mall. There's a café on the ground floor.Todd: Oh, nice.Katie: If you like drinking coffee.Todd: I do. I like to go and study and just relax.Katie: That's the perfect place for you, then.Todd: I like to people watch. Is it a good people-watching place?Katie: Oh, it's a great people-watching place.Todd: Oh, cool.Katie: The windows are really big, and you can see out onto the street.Todd: Oh, cool. What else is there? Is there a movie theater?Katie: Mm-hmm. There's a movie theater on the fourth floor.Todd: Oh, great. Now, do they have English movies?Katie: They have English and Japanese movies.Todd: Oh, that's good. I should watch some Japanese movies too.Katie: They're interesting.Todd: And how about food? I hear there's a new supermarket, a big supermarket there.Katie: It's pretty big. And you can get lots of food there. It's on the first floor.Todd: Okay. Is there anything else I should see?Katie: What about the roof garden?Todd: Oh, what is the roof garden?Katie: It's on the fifth floor, and it's, well it's on the roof, and you can see a beautiful view of the city. And there's also places for you to sit and just enjoy the view.Todd: Oh, nice. A roof garden, I like that.Katie: It's really nice.Todd: Now, do you buy clothes at the mall? Do they have nice clothing shops?Katie: Yeah, they have nice clothing shops. Some of them are a little bit expensive.Todd: Ah, yeah.Katie: And I like buying cheap clothes.Todd: Okay. When's a good time to go?Katie: I think the best time to go is probably weekdays.Todd: Okay. Why?Katie: If you go on the weekend, there are so many children there.Todd: Oh.Katie: Ugh. It's hard to walk around.Todd: Yeah, and we're teachers, we teach kids all day.Katie: Mm-hmm.Todd: Okay. I don't want to go then.Katie: No, me neither.Todd: Well, I want to go there next week, maybe Thursday night.Katie: Okay.Todd: Do you want to join me?Katie: Yeah, that sounds good. Maybe we can watch a movie.Todd: Cool. I'll buy you dinner.Katie: Sounds great.

Todd: So what are some fun holidays you celebrate in Australia?Megen: Well, we have Australia Day. And it is a public holiday, so on that day we go to the beach, and we do various Australian kind of things. We have barbecues and picnics, and it's a day to wear the flag colors.Todd: So it's your patriotic day?Megen: Yeah, it is.Todd: Like our fourth of July.Megen: Yes, yeah, like that. We don't usually have fireworks though.Todd: Oh, because of fires?Megen: No, I don't know why we don't, but I guess fireworks are popular on the Fourth of July right?Todd: They are, although these days they don't do it so much because of fires.Megen: Oh, it's summer in July.Todd: Right, so it's dangerous. ... what about other holidays like for example Valentine's Day? Do you celebrate Valentine's Day?Megen: Yeah, we do.Todd: Is it a romantic day?Megen: Yeah, so for Valentine's Day, usually you'll go out with your partner for dinner ... usually chocolate and flowers. It's pretty extravagant actually. The flowers are becoming more and more extravagant, and people like to send bunches of flowers to their partners work, and there's decorations and a lot of the products in the store are aimed at Valentine's Day I think.Todd: What do you think of Valentine's Day?Megen: Well, I didn't want to get caught up in everything when I was in Australia. I would go out for dinner sometimes, but nothing big.Todd: Now in Japan they have two days. They have Valentine's Day and they have White Day. Can you explain that?Megen: Yeah, well, I was surprised that is the day when the girls are supposed to give something to the boys.Todd: Right, it's reversed.Megen: Yeah, because I think in Australia on Valentine's Day, it's very important for boys to give something to girls, but not necessarily as important for girls to give something for boys.Todd: So when do boys give something to girls?Megen: So that is what White Day is for. So the White Day is the day is the day for the boys to reciprocate the action of giving chocolate or something to their partner, and the students are school as well, they will exchange chocolates or candies that they've made and they will give something back on White Day.Todd: Yeah, it's kind of nice how they flip it around. I actually like that it's broken up.Megen: It gives you time to think about what to do, maybe.Todd: Right, exactly.

Todd: So what are some fun holidays you celebrate in Australia?Megen: Well, we have Australia Day. And it is a public holiday, so on that day we go to the beach, and we do various Australian kind of things. We have barbecues and picnics, and it's a day to wear the flag colors.Todd: So it's your patriotic day?Megen: Yeah, it is.Todd: Like our fourth of July.Megen: Yes, yeah, like that. We don't usually have fireworks though.Todd: Oh, because of fires?Megen: No, I don't know why we don't, but I guess fireworks are popular on the Fourth of July right?Todd: They are, although these days they don't do it so much because of fires.Megen: Oh, it's summer in July.Todd: Right, so it's dangerous. ... what about other holidays like for example Valentine's Day? Do you celebrate Valentine's Day?Megen: Yeah, we do.Todd: Is it a romantic day?Megen: Yeah, so for Valentine's Day, usually you'll go out with your partner for dinner ... usually chocolate and flowers. It's pretty extravagant actually. The flowers are becoming more and more extravagant, and people like to send bunches of flowers to their partners work, and there's decorations and a lot of the products in the store are aimed at Valentine's Day I think.Todd: What do you think of Valentine's Day?Megen: Well, I didn't want to get caught up in everything when I was in Australia. I would go out for dinner sometimes, but nothing big.Todd: Now in Japan they have two days. They have Valentine's Day and they have White Day. Can you explain that?Megen: Yeah, well, I was surprised that is the day when the girls are supposed to give something to the boys.Todd: Right, it's reversed.Megen: Yeah, because I think in Australia on Valentine's Day, it's very important for boys to give something to girls, but not necessarily as important for girls to give something for boys.Todd: So when do boys give something to girls?Megen: So that is what White Day is for. So the White Day is the day is the day for the boys to reciprocate the action of giving chocolate or something to their partner, and the students are school as well, they will exchange chocolates or candies that they've made and they will give something back on White Day.Todd: Yeah, it's kind of nice how they flip it around. I actually like that it's broken up.Megen: It gives you time to think about what to do, maybe.Todd: Right, exactly.

Todd Marks is Founder and CEO at Mindgrub, an agency, consultancy, and support company that designs technology for people to transform businesses, creates enterprise mobile apps and web applications, provides digital marketing, and “unlocks human potential.” Winning Inc. 5000's Design/Development Firm of the year five years in a row might suggest that this is a notable tech firm. Yes, but this same company has also won the American Marketing Associations Marketing Excellence Award for Best Branding Campaign. How does this all fit together? A “high school math and computer science teacher” turned technologist, Todd collaborated with friends at his website- and eLearning-focused digital agency in the late-90s. In 2002, he founded Mindgrub as an engineering group writing code: building Flash, HTML, and CSS applications. When Apple released the iPhone in 2007, Todd recognized an important “disruption in technology,” and redirected his efforts to web application development and mobile application fulfillment. Customers soon requested information architecture, leading to larger projects.  Early on, the company ran with agency style, top-down, waterfall project management. Today, it specializes in DevOps/agile product, mobile, and web development; user experience design, testing, and emerging technology utilization; branding, digital and traditional marketing, and application support. It has redefined the meaning of “full-service” agency by reaching back to the very beginning – developing the plan, the strategy and designing the software product and pushing forward to the very end – marketing to make sure the product ends up in the hands of its target customers, and then supporting it. The agency manages the development of a strategic blend of technical projects in parallel with a comprehensive marketing framework. The process? Identify and define application users. Analyze competitors and the market. Conduct stakeholder interviews. Test hypothetical solutions (rapid-prototyping) to build the high-level functionality requirements on the technical side and lower level functionality user stories on the marketing side. Design the software – the information architecture, the product build, the user interface – and then provide the needed support and market the product.  In this interview, Todd discusses the increasingly important role of technology in the marketing world.  In particular, marketing needs automation to effectively manage and move prospects through the customer journey. Todd says COVID took the governor off the business. Today, the virtual workplace means the company can hire excellent talent anywhere – the company has grown from 105 employees at the beginning of the year to 155 with another 30 or 40 contractors.   Todd identifies 7 kinds of business opportunities: Deal Type 1: Go out and get new business Deal Type 2: Change orders to an existing project Deal Type 3: Adding a different service line Deal Type 4: “Support” or upselling (e.g., marketing) Deal Type 5: Adding a second project, same buyer Deal Type 6: Same account, new buyer Deal Type 7: An existing team member goes on long-term retainer  Todd has written and contributed to a number of books including Flash Magic, New Masters of Flash, and Web Design in a Nutshell. He sits on the advisory boards for Loyola University's MBA program, the Maryland Technology Council (MTC) (Chairman of the Board since 2018), and the Northeastern Maryland Tech Council (NMTC). He can be reached at his company's website at: mindgrub.com or on LinkedIn. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Todd Marks, Founder and CEO of Mindgrub, based in Baltimore, Maryland. Welcome to the podcast, Todd. TODD: Thanks for having me, Rob. ROB: Great to have you here. Why don't you start off by giving us a rundown of Mindgrub and where the business excels? TODD: Absolutely. Mindgrub is an agency, a consultancy, and a support company. We make enterprise mobile apps, web applications, and perform digital marketing, and we excel at unlocking human potential. ROB: Wow. That's a pretty wide range. A lot of people just do the digital marketing part, but you're also, you said, support, and also building applications. Where did you start? Were you doing all of that from Day 1? How did the business evolve? TODD: That's a great question. I really started the business in 2002. I had a startup with some partners in '98-'99, and after September 11th we went our separate ways. In 2002 I founded Mindgrub, and I really focused on Flash application development at the time. It became Flex. I also did some web application development with HTML and CSS. I did that for a number of years; I worked in New York, worked for a Deloitte brand for a little bit, and then in 2008 the iPhone came out. I knew that was a big differentiator. I was working in Chicago at the time. I've kind of glamorized the story, but it was a cold day in Chicago and I got splashed by a cab. Meanwhile, I was going back and forth to Maryland and it was getting warmer and warmer at the time, and I couldn't take the winter in Chicago. The SDK was released in January 2008, and by March I was done going to Chicago. I was also teaching at University of Maryland Baltimore County, teaching instructional technology but working with a lot of technical students on campus. So, I quit my day job, came back to Maryland, holed up in my basement and started making some early mobile apps. We started out as really web application development and mobile application fulfillment, and we did a great job. Engineers. But my clients started to ask, “You do design; can you do a little information architecture?” And I could, so I started to do that as well. Then we found ourselves growing into larger and larger projects, and we evolved from doing a lot of agency style, top-down, waterfall sort of project management to evolving a little bit more into agile. With agile it takes a lot more planning up front, so we found ourselves doing a lot of the strategy and planning, which we call Sprint Zero, but it's really identifying the users of the application, doing some competitor analysis, some market analysis. With those users, we'll do stakeholder interviews, testing, you name it, and we'll inevitably come up with a list of epics, which is the high level functionality they need, and user stories, which is a lower level functionality. From those users, we then design the software, we do that information architecture, we build it, and then we evolved into supporting it. So we have a support team as well, which I mentioned, called Aces. Then finally that full continuum was that we'd market it. We would release software, and a lot of times these enterprise mobile apps we'd put in the store – the clients would say, “We don't have any downloads but it's in the store.” We said, “What marketing did you do?” “Nothing. It's in the store.” “Did you even do optimization for the store?” “No.” Particularly, that store is not optimized. It doesn't necessarily get crawled effectively. There's some dark arts there that you can add some optimization for search engines. But you need landing pages, you need newsletters, you need marketing automation. There's all these additional things. So, we were getting unhappy seeing our clients not successful. We've made apps for Wendy's and Yamahas and Geicos of the world, and they always have tons of downloads. They have millions of people in a database somewhere and they can get hundreds of thousands of downloads. But for our startups that didn't have that marketing automation tool, they don't have a big CRM, they don't have a huge database of prospect users, they have to do marketing. Long story long, we are an end-to-end agency. We do everything from planning, design, development, support, and ongoing marketing. We don't just do it at the agency level, but we also have become a bit of a consultancy as well where we compete against the Accentures and the Deloittes of the world on that kind of channel. I see there's really two camps. There's the Big Four on the agency side, WPP, Omnicom, Dentsu – and the Big Four on the consulting side – Deloitte, Accenture, Booz, and Booz started out as an accounting company and now they're a consulting company. We inevitably play right in between. One of our taglines is that we're a very technical agency, which is our differentiator, and we're an extremely creative consultancy, which is a differentiator. ROB: It's certainly a differentiator, the creativity side. You can imagine there are probably a great number of development shops that – well, a lot of folks can't actually deliver a functioning application. We'll start there. But of those that can, you can see them delivering the application and saying, “Here it is,” and then you get to the customer saying, “What do I do with it? How do I promote it?” But for you to take on that responsibility – it seems like there's quite a shift in responsibility from “I gave you a functioning app” to “I am also accountable for people using it.” Was that a difficult transition to embrace, or was it somehow more natural? TODD: I would say it was a little bit difficult in that we started out as an engineering group, very analytical, writing code. Marketing started out really with advertising and more around the creative marketing – communication planning, branding and identity, visuals. We could always do application visuals, but we never really tackled that advertising piece. But marketing evolved to not just be the visual aspects of marketing, but the technical aspects of marketing. You think about the HubSpots and the Marketos and the Pardots of the world – those have only been around in recent years, and they automate the marketing process. They have APIs, and you can integrate with them and you can pull data and you can set up key performance indicators so that you can create rich dashboards to see how your marketing is performing. You can set up smart lists and you can automatically move people along from one list to another based on their interaction in your software or your marketing products. So, marketing itself has become extremely technical. As a technical company, I saw a lot of advertising and marketing agencies getting left behind because they weren't very technical. So we were able to come in from the technical side, set up the KPIs and the smart lists and the automation, and integrate with the API so that based on user interaction in the app, we can then progress them in the marketing automation software. That was a skill that marketing and advertising agencies didn't have, and the piece we didn't have necessarily was some of that design/advertising creativity. So, we did a couple acquisitions there. We acquired a marketing company that brought communication planning, branding, and identity with them, so we were able to add that competency. Now we're able to do really well on it because we have that full continuum. A lot of times we'll get a customer where we'll come in with a mobile app, but next thing we know, they then want us helping out with their website. They otherwise used a more traditional agency, but they see how technical we are, and creative, and they say, “Can you help with our website? And by the way, we have a kiosk too.” We call that the hat trick. Wendy's, for instance, we designed their mobile app and then we helped design parts of their website. We designed their kiosk. I don't know if you have Royal Farms down there. I don't know if you're more Sheetz or Wawa, but Royal Farms is a pretty big convenience store, and they're also a quick service restaurant with chicken based out of Maryland. Town & Country actually said they were the number one fast food chicken in the world, which is a pretty big accolade. Needless to say, we had a hat trick with them. We designed their mobile app, then we redesigned their kiosk, we've helped with their website. But in that case, they were so confident with our ability that they actually gave us traditional marketing as well. They have a big campaign called the Chicken Palooza campaign, which is billboards and sheets and mugs. We redesigned their chicken icon, which is a classic. So that's a case where we are the end-to-end agency, but we really are end-to-end. We're not just doing their traditional and digital marketing; we're doing their mobile apps, their websites, their loyalty program, integrating with their backend services. And this is all in the vein of marketing, but now there's enterprise application development that is a marketing effort. It's meant to increase sales. It's an app, it's a utility function, but it is also a marketing function. We've gotten good at marketing. ROB: That's interesting. We do not have that chain, but now I'm wishing that we did. It also seems like being in that chair for marketing is helpful to stay top of mind. A lot of times if you talk about a site build or an app build, some people are always working on their app and their site, but some people are much more burst-y about it. They complete an initiative and then they stop. If you were only involved in the technology side, you might not be in the conversation at the right time when they're ready to rebuild. somebody's forgotten, turnover has happened a little bit, that sort of thing. TODD: You're absolutely right. The marketing buyers still consider a mobile app a one-off project, whereas our consulting buyers, they're buying teams for years on end with option years to extend. Where we fill in a nice spot is that we are very technical, but we're extremely creative, so we're able to be that agency of record that can do it all. We'll get large monthly retainers as the agency of record, but within that retainer, it is mobile apps and marketing automation and SEO and banner ads and web micro sites. You name it. It's a very wide mixed variety of stuff that we can do. Whereas to your point, just a mobile shop or just a web shop, if they're just that technical shop, they're considered more of a project fulfillment company and not somebody that you would otherwise give to on a big monthly retainer.  ROB: You've mentioned quite a range of clients. You've mentioned startups and you've certainly mentioned some very enterprise customers. Have you always had that range of client mix? Where did you start out in some of those earlier years? TODD: That's a good question. The first couple clients for Mindgrub were actually large clients because it was myself. I was always able to position myself on bigger jobs and bigger brands and ended up working in New York City and Chicago with big brands for a while. When I started getting some work for the team on the web side, that started really back in 2002 when I founded the company. I always had some independent contractors, some interns, and even though I was in and out of a couple jobs at that point, I always had some freelancing work. And that was just smaller projects in my network, but not my job as the consultant or the day job I worked for, which were these bigger brands. What changed a lot of it is when mobile came out, I'd work with these bigger brands and I jumped ship with all the contracts I had and all these brands and opportunities to go start a business in my basement. I really hung my shingle on mobile. A lot of the marketing I did was mobile, mobile, mobile, “we make mobile apps.” At the time, I also had a product company. I was trying to make a mobile product. I got a lot of exposure to mobile there, so a lot of my network that were the bigger brands were just chomping at the bit to find mobile developers, and they got to me. So on the mobile side, we started working with really big brands. On the web side was a little smaller. Now that we've progressed, we've always actually done more web work than mobile because most mobile apps have a web backend, plus all the individual web work. Fast forward 18 years, mobile always attracted big brands, but web after 18 years also attracted big brands. On the application side, we do a lot with the big brands. On the marketing side, our first acquisition was just over 5 years ago, and we've really grown that team. I'd say our marketing team, when they're just working direct for the client, we've really moved up the chain. But we're a little bit more midmarket. Now, when our mobile and web division nets an enterprise client such as Wendy's or Royal Farms – Wendy's is a little different because we worked with the IT buyer. Even though we did their mobile app and helped design their website and kiosk, we were not necessarily working with the marketing department. They had it together and we were brought in. On Royal Farms, they're a little bit smaller of a business, so therefore we were able to come in on mobile, get the website, get the kiosk, but then they were a small enough company that the same conversations we're having with their head of IT, we're having with their marketing department. Next thing you know, their marketing department is asking us to do some fulfillment, and then it leads into this long-term great relationship where we're fulfilling a lot of aspects from mobile to marketing. So really, to answer that question, the big brands find us because of our differentiators, which happen to be on the technology side, and then they learn that we are good across the board. We are actively trying to push on our marketing side, and I know we just won eight communicator awards and five – some other. I know we're submitting for the Webbies right now. Our marketing team and the creative team, they don't want to be in the shadows anymore. We're winning all these awards, so now we're starting to stand on our own two feet as far as the look and feel. Some of our communications that we're doing, some of the branding that we're doing – these were things that we didn't start with 18 years ago, we really started pushing on 5 or 6 years ago. But because we have the experience working with big brands and they have that trust on the technology side, now we're commanding direct marketing work. For Sylvan, which is a really big online education institution, we did their advertising videos. For ExxonMobil, we did their TV spot. We filmed it, we used Mindgrubbers as actors in it, and there was only I think one or two paid actors that we had for that shoot. We were able to do it all in-house. It's just amazing, some of the things that we're able to do now. I would've never thought I'd be sitting on a TV commercial shoot, which I get to do now, which is super exciting. ROB: That's absolutely fascinating for the variety. One of my advisors was positing to me the other day – his perception was that many businesses, and particularly enterprises, were much more eager to send marketing work to marketing agencies than technology work to technology shops. How do you feel about that suggestion? Do you see truth in it? And is it shifting, if that has been the case? TODD: You said marketing work for marketing agencies and technology work for technology. Did you mean they're more willing to send technology work to marketing companies than they are willing to send marketing work to technology companies? ROB: That they've been more willing to hire a marketing agency while still trying to build a technology capability in-house, and maybe less likely to outsource parts of that. That was the suggestion and perception. How do you see it? TODD: Gotcha. I think you have to look at each buyer, and then when the core IP of the business is. If you had a business that was let's say a law firm, marketing and technology is not anywhere near their wheelhouse, so they would probably subcontract both. But if you're an events company and that events company is more of not a platform play, they're the coordination and they're hosting physical events, and you're a bunch of marketers, you're all about marketing, but you're not a platform event company. So you probably pull your marketing in-house, but at some point you want to go build a platform because now marketing of events is online, and you're not in a good position and Zoom's not cutting it anymore. You would then outsource your technology because you're a marketing core. And even though you're growing and you start to build some products, you still probably at that point would think, “I want to do my marketing in-house.” Let's say you're the opposite. Let's say you're that company that realizes there's disruption in the event space and Zoom isn't cutting it and there's a huge opportunity to recreate that in-person experience. You might go out and build software, and you're not going to be good at marketing, and you're probably not even going to try to do it in-house, or if you do you're going to flail because you're a software company. You build product. So, you should outsource your marketing. I really think it goes back to the buyer and the nature of the work they do and what is core to their IP versus things they should be subbing out. ROB: I can definitely tell you've thought a lot about this, about the buyers, about the organizational structure. As you've grown, how have you thought about helping other people on your team? It seems like you're at a point where you can't be the only one selling, so how have you equipped other people to think about navigating organizations and understanding buyers well? TODD: You got it. I originated pretty much every one of our departments. Now that we're bigger, some of those departments are being created by my other leadership. But sales, I started out, like just about every founder-led company, doing what's called founder sales. I had to sell everything. I started out as an engineer. My first company, I was raised by designers, so I went from growing our engineering department to our design department to our user experience department, accounting, the works. Sales was finally the last department that I had to stand up, and it was founder sales. The first thing I wanted to do was find a second person that could also sell. That individual had to be highly technical, highly creative. They had to be a subject matter expert, and then they had to also be good at business development. Then I was able to supplement helping them with the contracts piece, maybe even giving them some leads that came through our contact form. But at least they could put a solution together and basically sell the work and be personable. As we've advanced, I knew I needed to have a lot more people, so we really focused on process. With any business, it's the product, the process, and the people. We started with the product. We identified what it is we're going to sell. Every year we organized that list of solutions. Some solutions, maybe it wasn't great that year. We decided, let's not push on it next year. Other solutions have been a winner for us, we're doing multimillions in that solution and that market is big, and there's a huge opportunity. Then we'll promote those solutions. Then marketing knows what they're going to be marketing, production knows where they need to do some training, what they need to ramp up. We have solutions. The other thing we have is for every deal, we put together a deal team. Marketing works on the outside of the funnel. They're trying to come up with contacts that could be prospects so those prospects are qualified. In our industry, we're looking at marketing or IT buyers. We have a budget. They probably have some pain points we might be able to identify digitally. But they're qualified contacts. They're making them prospects, they're putting them in Smartlist, they're nurturing them through events, through newsletters. Then our BD team is interacting with these prospects and they're engaging with them. They're having conversations. They're sending personal emails. They're trying to figure out their pain points as well, but is there a solution we can provide to address their pain point? From there, our BD team then, if there is a solution, they then assemble a deal team now. They brought in the lead; they're more than likely going to be the principal manager of that deal. We then bring in a subject matter expert and we bring in a contracts person, and that subject matter expert is either technical or creative or potentially on project management side, depending on where their pain is. If their pain point is in speedy delivery, we need to bring in some project managers to see whether it's feasible given our timelines and resource capacities are the moment. If it's a technical pain point, then we bring in a technical subject matter expert. If it's a creative pain point, we bring in a creative director to really focus on what is the solution. From the solution then, we give them a cost to produce it, a timeline, and a resource plan. Then we close the work, and we've turned our products into a process. Then the thing that is absolutely quintessential is we hire just the best people. We have really good products, really good process, and amazing people, so as a result, we've just been commanding a lot of work. We started the year at about 105, 110. We're 155 employees with about another 30 or 40 contractors. That all started post March. And really, COVID actually took the governor off our business. We had amazing people and process and products, but there were a lot of things that slowed us down. Driving all over the place and meeting clients physically, we spent a lot of time and energy and money on planes, trains, and automobiles. Also employees. We had a big box office in Baltimore. We also have a bar and restaurant that we use as now a food incubator, but it was a tech incubator as well. And we have a new light manufacturing space coming online. But we thought because we have now these different facilities in Baltimore, we had to have people generally in Baltimore. In a pinch we hired a few remote workers, or we'd have a really good talent that moved remotely. But as soon as COVID hit, I said, “That's it, we're just going to be a virtual company; hire people wherever they live.” We're still trying to keep the same time zone and mostly North America, although we're looking at some points in South America now to start growing some of our own employees – but the governor came off. We didn't have to hire in Baltimore anymore, and it was so much easier to hire when you can hire from anywhere. We've got amazing talent, and not having to drive around and see our clients and get in planes, trains, and automobiles – it gave us tons of time back. All of our numbers went up. Our sales increased, our productivity increased. Our initiatives now, believe it or not, our next training is on how to take vacation. Our team members have taken one week less this time per year, so we're actually retraining them on how to take a vacation and how to eliminate burnout because they've just been so stellar. Needless to say, that's how we've done it. We focused on product, process, and people. In our pipeline, it's very, very systematic. It's no longer the founder anymore. Myself, I'm on the BD team. I have a couple other people that do BD, and I am trying to get out there and be an evangelist and network. When I hear of opportunities, I'm constantly growing our engagement directors – that's what our sales team are generally called – to be subject matter experts in a core vertical. And those verticals for us are obvious things in the Baltimore area – health, cyber, government, education – but then some not-so-obvious things for Baltimore. We're really big into retail and ecommerce and hospitality and support a lot of brands there. We're getting into legal and insurance. We're starting to do some financial services. So we're in a number of industries, and I'm trying to grow those salespeople. And then I'm an evangelist. The rest of our BD team, we're routing them deals. They're either coming inbound or from BD efforts. And then one more thing, just to share this amazing – and I'm a teacher; I started out as a high school teacher. I taught at university. What people will find is I'm very apt to share these things I've learned because it's fascinating. I was a technical guy, and I had to learn to build a sales team. But we even identified all our deal types, and we have sales plays. You have your outside team that tries to go out and hunt or farm and get new business development. We call that Deal Type 1. That's a new account and a new buyer. Then Deal Type 2 is typical stuff. A change order. They want more functionality. We teach all of our client services team and our project managers now who work with our clients to look out for Deal Type 2. That's the change order. You'd be surprised; a lot of times they think from leadership, “You scoped this project out. We should just be able to deliver exactly what's in this statement of work without deviation, or shame on us.” That's not true at all. If the project deviates – and it's certainly not agile, because in agile you can deviate as you go – if the project deviates, work with the client. If they need to come up with more budget, or same budget but you want to swap out some requirements, the change order, it's Deal Type 2. Deal Type 3 is adding a different service line. In our case, we do add support at the end of every contract. We go from the initial build to then going into monthly support. That's Deal Type 3. Deal Type 4 is not necessarily support, but upselling to marketing, for instance. Deal Type 5 is a second project. So we're not just adding services and values to that first project, but we're adding a second project to the mix. Same buyer. Deal Type 6 for us is same account but a brand new buyer with that account. Deal Type 7 is an existing team member now getting an ongoing retainer to satisfy all of the needs of the business. We're trying to get everybody up to that Lucky 7 where we're that agency of record, but it's across the board. Everything from mobile through digital. ROB: Congratulations, Todd. It sounds like it's been a heck of a year. We've seen that same thing with that switch to virtual. We definitely made that decision, and we're seeing good access to talent. We're seeing that talent really appreciates when you're willing to commit to being virtual versus where you're asking them, huddled in their home, to think about somebody moving to where you are. I think people need some relief and they need some permission to be in their own place and thrive there. TODD: You got that right. As soon as we realized it was going to be a virtual world, we said, “If you're a producer, you will never ever have to come back to the office from here on out if you don't want to.” We surveyed them, and half want to come back half the time, and then it's like a bell curve from there. But they shouldn't have to. We can work online. We're very data-oriented as a business, and we found we are more efficient. That said, we're also more disconnected from each other. So as soon as we decided that we wanted to be an online company, we knew that we had to really invest in what that meant. We used to invest in climbing walls and game rooms, and we had a virtual reality holodeck in the office. That was some fun bells and whistles, but it wasn't really what makes culture. Our culture is our passion, our creativity, our technology. It's our grit. Those were the things that we had to really reinforce that we still were about online. And then we had some of the bells and whistles too. We had Wellness Week. We're now doing a Games for Giving, where we're essentially donating for every step that an employee does to get them out of their chairs and moving, which is really important. We do yoga lessons, we have adventure club teams where they go on regional hikes. We're really trying to be a full experience for our team members and to really provide an amazing culture, from who we are and our values and our mission all the way through just having some really killer programming. We're having fun with it because it's a disruptive time. That's what I tell people. With Mindgrub, why have I been successful? I did have my family back here in Baltimore. As I mentioned, I was in Chicago. It was cold there, and I wanted to come home. So I had the need. I had, as they say in the book Outliers, more than 10 years' experience and 10,000 hours, so I had the experience. Ultimately, what was successful for Mindgrub was the fact that the iPhone came out in 2008, and that was major disruption. So that really grew us. Right now we are experiencing another boom because it is another period in our lifetimes of major disruption. I've learned to really make the most of it. ROB: Excellent teaching all the way through there, Todd. I love the way you set up and structured these things for us to learn from. When people want to find you and when they want to find Mindgrub, where should they go to connect with you? TODD: They can go, for Mindgrub, directly to mindgrub.com. And certainly I'd love if anybody reaches out to me on LinkedIn. I think that's an amazing channel for business networking and business relationships. As I mentioned, I started out as a teacher, and I love engagement and answering questions. By all means, I am happy to do so on email or LinkedIn. ROB: Excellent. Thank you so much, Todd, for coming on, and congratulations on everything that's going on – the businesses, the growth. There's a lot to learn from here, so thank you for sharing.  TODD: Thank you so much for having me, Rob. ROB: All right, take care. Bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Meg: Hey, Todd. Did you have any pets when you were a kid?Todd: I did. I had many pets actually. I had a dog, of course, and I had some cats. But actually, I grew up on a farm. Yeah. So we raised lots of animals, and on the farm, I always felt like the animals were my pets. So it was pretty cool.Meg: Wow. That sounds really exciting for a kid.Todd: Oh, it was great. It was the best.Meg: What kind of animals were on your farm?Todd: We had almost every, you know, farm animal possible. For example, we had pigs. We raised a lot of pigs. And pigs actually are really good pets. They're very fun. Pigs are very friendly animals and they're not really dangerous, so… Also pigs like people.So sometimes when we were little, we would ride on the pigs' backs but if our grandpa saw us riding on the pigs, he would yell at us. We always got in trouble.Meg: Uh-oh.Todd: Yeah.Meg: Also, aren't pigs dirty?Todd: They are dirty. So when you would go in the pig pen, you would get very, very dirty. But, you know, when you are small, when you are young, you don't care. It's just fun.Meg: What about other animals like chickens?Todd: We did have chickens and lots of chickens. And the chickens maybe were the least friendly animals. So chickens don't like people.Meg: Really?Todd: And the chickens – you have to go get the eggs. So working with chickens was not easy, and I never liked the chickens that much. Plus, the chickens you eat more often, so it's a little different.Meg: Right, yeah.Todd: Yeah.Meg: Yeah. I don't think I've ever seen a chicken in person.Todd: Really?Meg: No.Todd: Oh wow. You must be a city girl.Meg: I am. Although, when I was young, I always wanted to have a horse. Did your farm have horses?Todd: We had one horse for a while, and then we had a pony. So yeah, we had one horse and we had one pony. The pony was great because when I was little, we could ride the pony but the pony was actually really mean. So the pony would bite you if you were not careful. And if you try to ride the pony, sometimes the pony would get angry, very angry. But it's okay. You know, when you're small on a farm, it's normal.Meg: Oh, that pony sounds scary. Were there any other animals that you had that were more friendly?Todd: Yeah. Actually, the best pet you can have is a goat.Meg: Really? A goat?Todd: Yeah. Goats are fantastic. Goats love people. They really, really love people, and they're very social. And goats follow people. So when you are little on the farm and when you walk around, the goats become your friends.So when I was little, I would walk and I had friendly goats that would follow me everywhere. And they were great, and they're very curious. They like to see what you're doing. Yeah. And they like to be petted. So, you know, like how you pet a dog, you pet a cat; goats also like for you to pet them. They're very, very social.And it's interesting because goats and sheep are kind of similar but really, they're very different. So goats are very social. Goats are very friendly and sheep are very shy. And sheep don't like people at all. So sheep stay away from people and goats always get close to people.Meg: Hmm, sounds like a goat is a good pet to have.Todd: Goats are the best. They are so friendly. And goats are cool because goats talk to you. So they like to make a sound. You know, like, "Baa-a!" They "baa-a" or whatever, they make a sound. And when you walk around as a young boy or young girl, the goats are great. They follow you and you feel like the goat is talking to you, which is cool.Meg: That sounds really fun. Now I wish I had some goats.Todd: Yeah. Oh, you got to. The only other animal we had – we also had cows.Meg: Oh.Todd: And cows are cool. Some cows are friendly. Most cows are shy. But cows, you know, they always come to you because they think they will get food. But if they see you have no food, then cows stay away. So cows like sheep are a little afraid of people, but pigs and goats love people and they're very social.Meg: Oh, it sounds really cool, growing up on a farm.Todd: It was. It was. I was lucky.

Meg: Hey, Todd. Did you have any pets when you were a kid?Todd: I did. I had many pets actually. I had a dog, of course, and I had some cats. But actually, I grew up on a farm. Yeah. So we raised lots of animals, and on the farm, I always felt like the animals were my pets. So it was pretty cool.Meg: Wow. That sounds really exciting for a kid.Todd: Oh, it was great. It was the best.Meg: What kind of animals were on your farm?Todd: We had almost every, you know, farm animal possible. For example, we had pigs. We raised a lot of pigs. And pigs actually are really good pets. They're very fun. Pigs are very friendly animals and they're not really dangerous, so… Also pigs like people.So sometimes when we were little, we would ride on the pigs' backs but if our grandpa saw us riding on the pigs, he would yell at us. We always got in trouble.Meg: Uh-oh.Todd: Yeah.Meg: Also, aren't pigs dirty?Todd: They are dirty. So when you would go in the pig pen, you would get very, very dirty. But, you know, when you are small, when you are young, you don't care. It's just fun.Meg: What about other animals like chickens?Todd: We did have chickens and lots of chickens. And the chickens maybe were the least friendly animals. So chickens don't like people.Meg: Really?Todd: And the chickens – you have to go get the eggs. So working with chickens was not easy, and I never liked the chickens that much. Plus, the chickens you eat more often, so it's a little different.Meg: Right, yeah.Todd: Yeah.Meg: Yeah. I don't think I've ever seen a chicken in person.Todd: Really?Meg: No.Todd: Oh wow. You must be a city girl.Meg: I am. Although, when I was young, I always wanted to have a horse. Did your farm have horses?Todd: We had one horse for a while, and then we had a pony. So yeah, we had one horse and we had one pony. The pony was great because when I was little, we could ride the pony but the pony was actually really mean. So the pony would bite you if you were not careful. And if you try to ride the pony, sometimes the pony would get angry, very angry. But it's okay. You know, when you're small on a farm, it's normal.Meg: Oh, that pony sounds scary. Were there any other animals that you had that were more friendly?Todd: Yeah. Actually, the best pet you can have is a goat.Meg: Really? A goat?Todd: Yeah. Goats are fantastic. Goats love people. They really, really love people, and they're very social. And goats follow people. So when you are little on the farm and when you walk around, the goats become your friends.So when I was little, I would walk and I had friendly goats that would follow me everywhere. And they were great, and they're very curious. They like to see what you're doing. Yeah. And they like to be petted. So, you know, like how you pet a dog, you pet a cat; goats also like for you to pet them. They're very, very social.And it's interesting because goats and sheep are kind of similar but really, they're very different. So goats are very social. Goats are very friendly and sheep are very shy. And sheep don't like people at all. So sheep stay away from people and goats always get close to people.Meg: Hmm, sounds like a goat is a good pet to have.Todd: Goats are the best. They are so friendly. And goats are cool because goats talk to you. So they like to make a sound. You know, like, "Baa-a!" They "baa-a" or whatever, they make a sound. And when you walk around as a young boy or young girl, the goats are great. They follow you and you feel like the goat is talking to you, which is cool.Meg: That sounds really fun. Now I wish I had some goats.Todd: Yeah. Oh, you got to. The only other animal we had – we also had cows.Meg: Oh.Todd: And cows are cool. Some cows are friendly. Most cows are shy. But cows, you know, they always come to you because they think they will get food. But if they see you have no food, then cows stay away. So cows like sheep are a little afraid of people, but pigs and goats love people and they're very social.Meg: Oh, it sounds really cool, growing up on a farm.Todd: It was. It was. I was lucky.

Todd: Hey Katie. I'm having a party, Super Bowl party at my house on Sunday in a couple of weeks. Would you like to come over?Katie: Okay. But I have absolutely no idea what a Super Bowl is.Todd: Well, you know, the Super Bowl is a big sporting event and we have it once a year. But it's okay if you don't know anything about American football because actually, the Super Bowl is kind of like our unofficial holiday.Katie: Okay.Todd: Yeah. So what happens is, is everybody comes over to somebody's house, and you have a big party and you watch the game but nobody really watches the game. There's lots of other stuff going on so it's should be good.Katie: Do you have like Super Bowl food that you eat?Todd: Exactly. Exactly. So it's kind of like a big feast. So we'll have, you know, like hamburgers and stuff we'll barbecue. And we'll have lots of like chips and dip and stuff like that. So you don't have to bring any food but it's potluck. So if you do want to bring something, yeah, I would recommend it.Katie: Do you have to be like a supporter of one of the teams in the final?Todd: No. And actually, the game is not for a couple of weeks so we don't know who the two final teams are going to be.Katie: All right.Todd: They still have to decide, but actually, there's a bunch of things that have nothing to do with football on the Super Bowl that you'll probably like. The first is, they have the halftime show. You may have heard about the Super Bowl halftime show.Katie: Okay.Todd: You like music, right?Katie: I love music.Todd: Right. So they always have a really big musical act. And actually this year, I don't remember who it is. I'll have to check but it's usually somebody like Bruno Mars or U2 or somebody like that.Katie: I think last year, it was Katie Perry, was it not?Todd: It might have been. Yeah. But it's always a really, really big person. Another thing that's really cool about the Super Bowl is the commercials. So the commercials, you know, the companies spend a lot of money on the commercials, and they're usually really good. So the commercials—the people are often more into the commercials than the game.Katie: Okay.Todd: Especially if one team is kind of – if it's a lopsided win. So yeah, so the commercials are fun.Katie: What kind of commercials do they have?Todd: You know, like companies like Pepsi or Coke or like really big name companies.Katie: So the really big ones.Todd: Yeah. They'll spend like millions and millions of dollars. These are usually the most expensive commercials because it's one local game and one local audience. Like the World Cup is a more watched event but the commercials are regional for all the different countries, whereas the Super Bowl, the commercials are just for Americans.Katie: Yeah.Todd: So yeah, these are usually the most expensive commercials like around the world. So they're usually really well done.Katie: Is it just American teams in the Super Bowl?Todd: Yes, it's very, you know, Americanized name, I'd say. But, you know, like I said, the game is really not that important. But there is one way that you can make money.Katie: Okay. I'm interested.Todd: So what happens is, we have like a pool and you can draw numbers. And like you don't have to know anything about football but you can have like, you know, draw numbers for the first person to score a touchdown, or the first player to get a penalty or things like that. And you just fill out the chart and then if your player gets that, then you can get money.So you have to contribute. You have to pay like 10 bucks to play. But then it's in the pool and then you could win money at different points during the game.Katie: Have you ever won at the Super Bowl before?Todd: Yeah. It's kind of like how it works out where everybody wins a little money and everybody loses a little money. So, you know, gambling technically is illegal but…Katie: Of course.Todd: Yeah. But it's like just one of those things that everybody does.Katie: It's not for big money.Todd: No.Katie: Just a little bit of money.Todd: Just a little bit of money.Katie: So it's okay.Todd: Just to have fun. Yeah. So, and then, once I find out what teams are in the finals then I'll tell you about the colors. And it's usually best that you choose one team that you're going to support.Katie: Okay.Todd: So I'll fill you in about who the teams are later and all that.Katie: Right.Todd: So are you willing to come?Katie: Yeah. Sounds like fun.Todd: Okay, cool.Katie: I'm in.Todd: All right. So it's going to be at my house at 3:00. So if you can show up around 2:00-ish.Katie: Should I bring some food?Todd: You can. Like you can bring some type of maybe salad or like a bean dish or something like that if you like. But we'll – like the main food, we'll provide. We'll have pizza. We'll have burgers. Oh, and it's BYOB.Katie: Okay.Todd: So if you want to drink, you have to bring your own alcohol.Katie: All right.Todd: But we will have some beers and stuff. Do you drink?Katie: Sometimes.Todd: Okay. Cool.Katie: Like tenths of the time.Todd: All right. So see you there. Glad you can come.Katie: No worries.

Todd: Hey Katie. I'm having a party, Super Bowl party at my house on Sunday in a couple of weeks. Would you like to come over?Katie: Okay. But I have absolutely no idea what a Super Bowl is.Todd: Well, you know, the Super Bowl is a big sporting event and we have it once a year. But it's okay if you don't know anything about American football because actually, the Super Bowl is kind of like our unofficial holiday.Katie: Okay.Todd: Yeah. So what happens is, is everybody comes over to somebody's house, and you have a big party and you watch the game but nobody really watches the game. There's lots of other stuff going on so it's should be good.Katie: Do you have like Super Bowl food that you eat?Todd: Exactly. Exactly. So it's kind of like a big feast. So we'll have, you know, like hamburgers and stuff we'll barbecue. And we'll have lots of like chips and dip and stuff like that. So you don't have to bring any food but it's potluck. So if you do want to bring something, yeah, I would recommend it.Katie: Do you have to be like a supporter of one of the teams in the final?Todd: No. And actually, the game is not for a couple of weeks so we don't know who the two final teams are going to be.Katie: All right.Todd: They still have to decide, but actually, there's a bunch of things that have nothing to do with football on the Super Bowl that you'll probably like. The first is, they have the halftime show. You may have heard about the Super Bowl halftime show.Katie: Okay.Todd: You like music, right?Katie: I love music.Todd: Right. So they always have a really big musical act. And actually this year, I don't remember who it is. I'll have to check but it's usually somebody like Bruno Mars or U2 or somebody like that.Katie: I think last year, it was Katie Perry, was it not?Todd: It might have been. Yeah. But it's always a really, really big person. Another thing that's really cool about the Super Bowl is the commercials. So the commercials, you know, the companies spend a lot of money on the commercials, and they're usually really good. So the commercials—the people are often more into the commercials than the game.Katie: Okay.Todd: Especially if one team is kind of – if it's a lopsided win. So yeah, so the commercials are fun.Katie: What kind of commercials do they have?Todd: You know, like companies like Pepsi or Coke or like really big name companies.Katie: So the really big ones.Todd: Yeah. They'll spend like millions and millions of dollars. These are usually the most expensive commercials because it's one local game and one local audience. Like the World Cup is a more watched event but the commercials are regional for all the different countries, whereas the Super Bowl, the commercials are just for Americans.Katie: Yeah.Todd: So yeah, these are usually the most expensive commercials like around the world. So they're usually really well done.Katie: Is it just American teams in the Super Bowl?Todd: Yes, it's very, you know, Americanized name, I'd say. But, you know, like I said, the game is really not that important. But there is one way that you can make money.Katie: Okay. I'm interested.Todd: So what happens is, we have like a pool and you can draw numbers. And like you don't have to know anything about football but you can have like, you know, draw numbers for the first person to score a touchdown, or the first player to get a penalty or things like that. And you just fill out the chart and then if your player gets that, then you can get money.So you have to contribute. You have to pay like 10 bucks to play. But then it's in the pool and then you could win money at different points during the game.Katie: Have you ever won at the Super Bowl before?Todd: Yeah. It's kind of like how it works out where everybody wins a little money and everybody loses a little money. So, you know, gambling technically is illegal but…Katie: Of course.Todd: Yeah. But it's like just one of those things that everybody does.Katie: It's not for big money.Todd: No.Katie: Just a little bit of money.Todd: Just a little bit of money.Katie: So it's okay.Todd: Just to have fun. Yeah. So, and then, once I find out what teams are in the finals then I'll tell you about the colors. And it's usually best that you choose one team that you're going to support.Katie: Okay.Todd: So I'll fill you in about who the teams are later and all that.Katie: Right.Todd: So are you willing to come?Katie: Yeah. Sounds like fun.Todd: Okay, cool.Katie: I'm in.Todd: All right. So it's going to be at my house at 3:00. So if you can show up around 2:00-ish.Katie: Should I bring some food?Todd: You can. Like you can bring some type of maybe salad or like a bean dish or something like that if you like. But we'll – like the main food, we'll provide. We'll have pizza. We'll have burgers. Oh, and it's BYOB.Katie: Okay.Todd: So if you want to drink, you have to bring your own alcohol.Katie: All right.Todd: But we will have some beers and stuff. Do you drink?Katie: Sometimes.Todd: Okay. Cool.Katie: Like tenths of the time.Todd: All right. So see you there. Glad you can come.Katie: No worries.

Todd: Okay. So we're talking about housing Meg. You know, these days, a lot of people can actually stay in houses when they travel. Like they don't stay in hotels, they stay in a house. Have you heard about Airbnb?Meg: Yeah, I have heard of it. I've looked at the website a couple of times. Do they have Airbnb where you're from?Todd: They do. They actually do have Airbnb in San Francisco but I have not used it in San Francisco, I've only used it actually traveling in other countries. I used it Thailand and I was going to use it in Japan but I ended up – I couldn't use it because of the travel problems but yeah.Meg: So how does it work?Todd: Basically, what it works is if somebody owns a house, they can rent out a room. And so, you find a house online and then you book it with the scheduling system online. And then you pay Airbnb the money and then the people let you stay in their house.Meg: What are the cost usually? Is it expensive?Todd: It can be really cheap or really expensive. You have both ends. I mean, sometimes you can just rent a room and sometimes, you can actually rent the whole house.So, you know – and now, in places like Thailand or other places in Southeast Asia, what they do is a lot of condominiums now are kind of turning into mini-hotels. So rather than try to find long-term tenants, they just search for – or they just rent out their apartments on Airbnb.Meg: Right. Well, it sounds like a good way to stay some place you haven't been before.Todd: It is good. I mean, when I used it in Thailand, what I liked about it was you feel like you have a real, you know, you have real roots there. You're not in the hotel so nobody is kind of intruding on you or nobody is coming to clean your room everyday. So you feel like you have more privacy and you feel like you really live in the place. And usually, the apartments are in real neighborhoods so they're not in touristy areas. So there are definitely some advantages.Meg: Would you say that it's safe?Todd: Yeah. I guess that's the biggest concern. It seems to be safe. I mean, from what I see – although there was an interesting case recently in California where they've had problems of squatters. And a squatter…Meg: What are squatters?Todd: A squatter is somebody who, they take the Airbnb house and then they just never leave.Meg: Oh.Todd: Yeah. And then they're hard to evict. So that was one interesting thing. And then also, recently, the company has been in the news because people that have low-income housing, like government-subsidized housing, they've been trying to rent out their apartments on Airbnb.Meg: On Airbnb.Todd: And then the city or the government said, “Hey, you can't do that because we give you this house at a discount to help you because you're low income. So you can't use it to make a profit.” So it's been a very debatable situation.Meg: Yeah. I guess it's kind of like double dipping.Todd: Yeah.Meg: You're getting discount or paid in a way to live there and then you want to get paid more. So it sounds like a problem.Todd: Yeah. So what do you think? Would you be interested in doing something like Airbnb?Meg: Yeah. I definitely think so. After researching a place, maybe if I have a lot of pictures and it seemed clear that it would be safe, yeah, I think I'd like to do it.Todd: And actually their website is fantastic. Like if you go to their website, you can, let's say, choose a house in Paris or Madrid or whatever. And then they often have like the Google street cam thing so you can see what the house looks like on the inside. And then you could actually do the rotating camera and see what the neighborhood looks like.And then everybody leaves reviews about the owner and about their stay there, so you'd get a good feel about what the place is like. So it's kind of a new way to travel, and it's kind of cool.Meg: Yeah. It sounds interesting especially the reviews. I think knowing someone else has had a good experience, I would definitely be interested in doing it.Todd: Yeah, definitely.

Todd: Okay. So we're talking about housing Meg. You know, these days, a lot of people can actually stay in houses when they travel. Like they don't stay in hotels, they stay in a house. Have you heard about Airbnb?Meg: Yeah, I have heard of it. I've looked at the website a couple of times. Do they have Airbnb where you're from?Todd: They do. They actually do have Airbnb in San Francisco but I have not used it in San Francisco, I've only used it actually traveling in other countries. I used it Thailand and I was going to use it in Japan but I ended up – I couldn't use it because of the travel problems but yeah.Meg: So how does it work?Todd: Basically, what it works is if somebody owns a house, they can rent out a room. And so, you find a house online and then you book it with the scheduling system online. And then you pay Airbnb the money and then the people let you stay in their house.Meg: What are the cost usually? Is it expensive?Todd: It can be really cheap or really expensive. You have both ends. I mean, sometimes you can just rent a room and sometimes, you can actually rent the whole house.So, you know – and now, in places like Thailand or other places in Southeast Asia, what they do is a lot of condominiums now are kind of turning into mini-hotels. So rather than try to find long-term tenants, they just search for – or they just rent out their apartments on Airbnb.Meg: Right. Well, it sounds like a good way to stay some place you haven't been before.Todd: It is good. I mean, when I used it in Thailand, what I liked about it was you feel like you have a real, you know, you have real roots there. You're not in the hotel so nobody is kind of intruding on you or nobody is coming to clean your room everyday. So you feel like you have more privacy and you feel like you really live in the place. And usually, the apartments are in real neighborhoods so they're not in touristy areas. So there are definitely some advantages.Meg: Would you say that it's safe?Todd: Yeah. I guess that's the biggest concern. It seems to be safe. I mean, from what I see – although there was an interesting case recently in California where they've had problems of squatters. And a squatter…Meg: What are squatters?Todd: A squatter is somebody who, they take the Airbnb house and then they just never leave.Meg: Oh.Todd: Yeah. And then they're hard to evict. So that was one interesting thing. And then also, recently, the company has been in the news because people that have low-income housing, like government-subsidized housing, they've been trying to rent out their apartments on Airbnb.Meg: On Airbnb.Todd: And then the city or the government said, “Hey, you can't do that because we give you this house at a discount to help you because you're low income. So you can't use it to make a profit.” So it's been a very debatable situation.Meg: Yeah. I guess it's kind of like double dipping.Todd: Yeah.Meg: You're getting discount or paid in a way to live there and then you want to get paid more. So it sounds like a problem.Todd: Yeah. So what do you think? Would you be interested in doing something like Airbnb?Meg: Yeah. I definitely think so. After researching a place, maybe if I have a lot of pictures and it seemed clear that it would be safe, yeah, I think I'd like to do it.Todd: And actually their website is fantastic. Like if you go to their website, you can, let's say, choose a house in Paris or Madrid or whatever. And then they often have like the Google street cam thing so you can see what the house looks like on the inside. And then you could actually do the rotating camera and see what the neighborhood looks like.And then everybody leaves reviews about the owner and about their stay there, so you'd get a good feel about what the place is like. So it's kind of a new way to travel, and it's kind of cool.Meg: Yeah. It sounds interesting especially the reviews. I think knowing someone else has had a good experience, I would definitely be interested in doing it.Todd: Yeah, definitely.

Todd: So Sarah, let's talk about sleep. How many hours of sleep do you usually get every night?Sarah: Usually, at least eight. It depends on how late I stay up but usually about eight hours, I try to get every night.Todd: And you are pretty consistent, like even on the weekends, you get eight hours.Sarah: Yes. Even on the weekends. Sleep is very important for me to feel normal and energetic.Todd: Now, do you need an alarm clock to wake you up or you just wake up naturally everyday?Sarah: I definitely have to have an alarm clock. Even though I wake up very easily, I don't wake up at a routine time easily. So I usually set two alarms and that will usually get me up.Todd: Oh wow. I actually have this kind of weird mental ability. I thought that everybody can do this but I found out it's not the case, but I can wake up exactly at the minute I want, any time. So like, if I have to get up at 5:43, before I go to bed, I can say, "Okay. Get up at 5:43." And I'll wake up at 5:43, exactly.Sarah: That's amazing.Todd: Yeah. I don't know how – I guess your brain just can keep time. When I tell people this, sometimes they think, "Oh come on, that's not true." But really, ever since I was a kid I could just tell myself what time I want to wake up and I'll wake up exactly at that time.Sarah: That's really quite amazing. I wish it was that way for me, but it's not.Todd: Yeah. You know what's weird – because I don't use alarm clocks. And I can't – like an alarm clock – the idea actually, I can't have a deep sleep if I know that it's going to ring and wake up, like it's going to jolt. To me an alarm clock is like somebody throwing cold water on you, you know. So yeah, I don't use alarm clocks at all.Sarah: Yeah. I'm always paranoid about being late so that's why I set two just in case like one doesn't go off. But I can sleep anytime of the day. Like it really doesn't matter what type of day, it's very easy for me to fall asleep for as long as whenever. So that's why I have to have an alarm clock because I could sleep 12 or 14 hours and not wake up.Todd: Wow. That's like you do like sleep.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: So do you take naps?Sarah: No, because then I feel really like groggy and really like irritable if I take naps because I just want to sleep longer than that amount of time. So I don't take naps.Todd: Like can you sleep with the light on?Sarah: Yes.Todd: Really?Sarah: Yes.Todd: Yeah, I can't. Actually, that's why I always wake up so early. As soon the light comes through the window, I wake up. I can't sleep if it's not dark.Sarah: I can sleep in any situation; light, noise, sitting up. It doesn't matter. I can sleep.Todd: Oh wow. So you're a deep sleeper.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: I'm so jealous. Like just a little bit of noise or a little bit of light and I can't sleep. And actually, I probably only get an average six hours a night. But I do sometimes take naps.Sarah: Oh okay. How long do you usually nap for?Todd: Usually an hour. I found out if I go over an hour then that's the danger zone because then if you sleep like two or three hours, then you wake up and you're just groggy for the whole day. Like you can't – it's like you've been drugged, you know. So yeah. Forty-five-minute nap is about it.Sarah: Yeah. When you were a child, did your parents make you take naps?Todd: They did. And oddly enough, when I was a kid though, I couldn't sleep, like, you would cry, "I don't want to take a nap" you know. And you'd be like you conk out. But yeah, I do remember.Do you remember having to take naps in school?Sarah: I didn't go to school actually. I was homeschooled.Todd: Oh really.Sarah: I remember taking naps when I was really little but beyond that and like school-age, I never had to.Todd: Oh wow. Anyway, all these talks are making me tired. I think I'm ready for a nap.Sarah: Sounds good.

Todd: So Sarah, let's talk about sleep. How many hours of sleep do you usually get every night?Sarah: Usually, at least eight. It depends on how late I stay up but usually about eight hours, I try to get every night.Todd: And you are pretty consistent, like even on the weekends, you get eight hours.Sarah: Yes. Even on the weekends. Sleep is very important for me to feel normal and energetic.Todd: Now, do you need an alarm clock to wake you up or you just wake up naturally everyday?Sarah: I definitely have to have an alarm clock. Even though I wake up very easily, I don't wake up at a routine time easily. So I usually set two alarms and that will usually get me up.Todd: Oh wow. I actually have this kind of weird mental ability. I thought that everybody can do this but I found out it's not the case, but I can wake up exactly at the minute I want, any time. So like, if I have to get up at 5:43, before I go to bed, I can say, "Okay. Get up at 5:43." And I'll wake up at 5:43, exactly.Sarah: That's amazing.Todd: Yeah. I don't know how – I guess your brain just can keep time. When I tell people this, sometimes they think, "Oh come on, that's not true." But really, ever since I was a kid I could just tell myself what time I want to wake up and I'll wake up exactly at that time.Sarah: That's really quite amazing. I wish it was that way for me, but it's not.Todd: Yeah. You know what's weird – because I don't use alarm clocks. And I can't – like an alarm clock – the idea actually, I can't have a deep sleep if I know that it's going to ring and wake up, like it's going to jolt. To me an alarm clock is like somebody throwing cold water on you, you know. So yeah, I don't use alarm clocks at all.Sarah: Yeah. I'm always paranoid about being late so that's why I set two just in case like one doesn't go off. But I can sleep anytime of the day. Like it really doesn't matter what type of day, it's very easy for me to fall asleep for as long as whenever. So that's why I have to have an alarm clock because I could sleep 12 or 14 hours and not wake up.Todd: Wow. That's like you do like sleep.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: So do you take naps?Sarah: No, because then I feel really like groggy and really like irritable if I take naps because I just want to sleep longer than that amount of time. So I don't take naps.Todd: Like can you sleep with the light on?Sarah: Yes.Todd: Really?Sarah: Yes.Todd: Yeah, I can't. Actually, that's why I always wake up so early. As soon the light comes through the window, I wake up. I can't sleep if it's not dark.Sarah: I can sleep in any situation; light, noise, sitting up. It doesn't matter. I can sleep.Todd: Oh wow. So you're a deep sleeper.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: I'm so jealous. Like just a little bit of noise or a little bit of light and I can't sleep. And actually, I probably only get an average six hours a night. But I do sometimes take naps.Sarah: Oh okay. How long do you usually nap for?Todd: Usually an hour. I found out if I go over an hour then that's the danger zone because then if you sleep like two or three hours, then you wake up and you're just groggy for the whole day. Like you can't – it's like you've been drugged, you know. So yeah. Forty-five-minute nap is about it.Sarah: Yeah. When you were a child, did your parents make you take naps?Todd: They did. And oddly enough, when I was a kid though, I couldn't sleep, like, you would cry, "I don't want to take a nap" you know. And you'd be like you conk out. But yeah, I do remember.Do you remember having to take naps in school?Sarah: I didn't go to school actually. I was homeschooled.Todd: Oh really.Sarah: I remember taking naps when I was really little but beyond that and like school-age, I never had to.Todd: Oh wow. Anyway, all these talks are making me tired. I think I'm ready for a nap.Sarah: Sounds good.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Rebecca: Hey, Todd, I'm going and looking for a gym. Actually, I hear you've joined a gym. Which one?Todd: Yeah, actually, there's a real nice gym downtown. It just opened about a month ago. Maybe two months ago. It's really nice.Rebecca: OK, what's the name of it?Todd: The name is Fitness Club.Rebecca: Good name.Todd: Yeah, so, and it's pretty much has everything. I mean it has, you know, free weights, of course, and it has all the latest machines.Rebecca: Ah, good.Todd: Actually some of the machines are kind of tricky,I really don't know how they work yet. I'll have to ask the staff.Rebecca: So it's more than a treadmill? It's a whole big machine that you don't know how what to do?Todd: Exactly. I'm actually afraid to get on the thing. I don't want to break it, you know.Rebecca: Is there people that can help you?Todd: Yeah, actually, that's part of the problem is that you can't use any of the equipment unless you get trained for it. They're really specific, so you have to have guidance. It's kind of annoying actually because, you know, everything... they have a system and they know based on, you know, your membership what machines you can use and what you can't.Rebecca: OK. But what happens if, like I've been to a gym before do I still need to get the training before I start?Todd: Yeah. That's how I was. I told them that I, you know, had been lifting weights for a while and they didn't care, so you have to get certified to use all the equipment. It's kind of inconvenient.Rebecca: OK, so, do they have classes though?Todd: They do. Actually, they pretty much have everything. They have yoga, kick boxing, spin classes, dancing, so the schedule looks pretty diverse.Rebecca: Oh, that's good. I do prefer classes than weights.Todd: Only one thing that's bad about the classes though is that cause it's new, and it's a new gym and there's lots of people and it looks like it's pretty crowded in there, I think you have to reserve what classes you're going to join.Rebecca: Oh, really.Todd: Yeah, isn't that terrible.Rebecca: Oh, geez, I usually just like to walk in.Todd: Right, right, right.Rebecca: Yeah, when you feel like going to the gym, you go.Todd: Right, right. One thing that is nice though is they have an actual gym floor, like a basketball gym, so you can play basketball. They have volleyball tournaments, so I mean, if you like more traditional sport, like tennis, they also have tennis courts. You can do that as well.Rebecca: Oh, that's good. I do like tennis. I love tennis actually.Todd: Well, actually, if you're interested I'd be glad to take you down to the gym and show you. I think you get a free trial workout.Rebecca: OH, that's good. That's good. So how much would it cost per month?Todd: Well, 'cause it's new it's kind of expensive. It costs about fifty dollars a month.Rebecca: Oh, wow!Todd: Yeah, but if you buy a membership, a two-year membership, you can get a two-year membership, I think for eight hundred dollars, so it saves you some money so it's kind of reasonable.Rebecca: And I suppose if you pay for two, you know you have to go then.Todd: Right. Right. It's eight hundred dollars for two years, five hundred dollars for one year, or fifty dollars a month.Rebecca: OK, yeah.Todd: Oh, one thing that's really cool too is that they have a social center. They have like an area where you can get like fruit drinks and coffee and stuff like that and just hang out. It's quite nice.Rebecca: That's good. So after the workout, go and have coffee.Todd: Right. Right.Rebecca: Lovely. OK. So, yeah, I would love to come and have a look at it.Todd: OK, well next week, anytime, just give me a call. I'll take you there.Rebecca: Alright. Great. Thanks.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Rebecca: Hey, Todd, I'm going and looking for a gym. Actually, I hear you've joined a gym. Which one?Todd: Yeah, actually, there's a real nice gym downtown. It just opened about a month ago. Maybe two months ago. It's really nice.Rebecca: OK, what's the name of it?Todd: The name is Fitness Club.Rebecca: Good name.Todd: Yeah, so, and it's pretty much has everything. I mean it has, you know, free weights, of course, and it has all the latest machines.Rebecca: Ah, good.Todd: Actually some of the machines are kind of tricky,I really don't know how they work yet. I'll have to ask the staff.Rebecca: So it's more than a treadmill? It's a whole big machine that you don't know how what to do?Todd: Exactly. I'm actually afraid to get on the thing. I don't want to break it, you know.Rebecca: Is there people that can help you?Todd: Yeah, actually, that's part of the problem is that you can't use any of the equipment unless you get trained for it. They're really specific, so you have to have guidance. It's kind of annoying actually because, you know, everything... they have a system and they know based on, you know, your membership what machines you can use and what you can't.Rebecca: OK. But what happens if, like I've been to a gym before do I still need to get the training before I start?Todd: Yeah. That's how I was. I told them that I, you know, had been lifting weights for a while and they didn't care, so you have to get certified to use all the equipment. It's kind of inconvenient.Rebecca: OK, so, do they have classes though?Todd: They do. Actually, they pretty much have everything. They have yoga, kick boxing, spin classes, dancing, so the schedule looks pretty diverse.Rebecca: Oh, that's good. I do prefer classes than weights.Todd: Only one thing that's bad about the classes though is that cause it's new, and it's a new gym and there's lots of people and it looks like it's pretty crowded in there, I think you have to reserve what classes you're going to join.Rebecca: Oh, really.Todd: Yeah, isn't that terrible.Rebecca: Oh, geez, I usually just like to walk in.Todd: Right, right, right.Rebecca: Yeah, when you feel like going to the gym, you go.Todd: Right, right. One thing that is nice though is they have an actual gym floor, like a basketball gym, so you can play basketball. They have volleyball tournaments, so I mean, if you like more traditional sport, like tennis, they also have tennis courts. You can do that as well.Rebecca: Oh, that's good. I do like tennis. I love tennis actually.Todd: Well, actually, if you're interested I'd be glad to take you down to the gym and show you. I think you get a free trial workout.Rebecca: OH, that's good. That's good. So how much would it cost per month?Todd: Well, 'cause it's new it's kind of expensive. It costs about fifty dollars a month.Rebecca: Oh, wow!Todd: Yeah, but if you buy a membership, a two-year membership, you can get a two-year membership, I think for eight hundred dollars, so it saves you some money so it's kind of reasonable.Rebecca: And I suppose if you pay for two, you know you have to go then.Todd: Right. Right. It's eight hundred dollars for two years, five hundred dollars for one year, or fifty dollars a month.Rebecca: OK, yeah.Todd: Oh, one thing that's really cool too is that they have a social center. They have like an area where you can get like fruit drinks and coffee and stuff like that and just hang out. It's quite nice.Rebecca: That's good. So after the workout, go and have coffee.Todd: Right. Right.Rebecca: Lovely. OK. So, yeah, I would love to come and have a look at it.Todd: OK, well next week, anytime, just give me a call. I'll take you there.Rebecca: Alright. Great. Thanks.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Todd: Now there's a couple that are kind of, that are not as nice. They can be positive or negative like for example a helicopter parent.Julia: A helicopter parent? What's that?Todd: So a helicopter parent is basically a parent that just hovers over their child all the time. They're always worried about their child. They follow them everywhere. They want to know what they're doing at all times and they just worry a lot. They're so worried...Julia: That sounds very stressful.Todd: Yeah.Julia: As a parent.Todd: They're always worried their child's going to get hurt or something, you know, or they just are just over-protective, I guess yeah. So are you a helicopter parent?Julia: No, I don't think so, no. No, I'm very happy for my daughter to have independence.Todd: That's good. That's good. So you don't like, if she goes outside for a few minutes or if she's, you know, you hear some clanging in the next room, you don't go rushing over.Julia: No. I wait for the tears before I go over.Todd: Smart, smart. There's, recently because of a very popular book we have, it's called the Tiger Mom.Julia: A Tiger Mum?Todd: Yeah, Tiger Mom.Julia: Sounds cool. Is it a positive term or is it a negative?Todd: It is kind of. Actually it comes, the tiger I think comes from the Asian reference. It's like for an Asian mother and it's basically really strict, really driven, like really push your kids, make them study hard, demand good grades, demand that they do extracurricular activities, really push them to have high paying careers or successful careers, do well academically and stuff like that.Julia: From very young, does this...?Todd: Yeah, from very young. The woman who wrote the book, I think it's actually called Tiger Mom and she was a Yale professor and I think she was of Chinese ancestry and she raised these very successful daughters and so she wrote a book and basically saying you need to be strict and push your kids and demand excellence. I think that's what she wrote.Julia: Is the tiger, is it reference to like the Chinese horoscope, maybe like the characteristics of the tiger for that year?Todd: No. Actually I just think it has to do with being a tiger comes from Asia, I think that's it.Julia: OK, well a tiger does have a pretty kind of aggressive or driven sort of image.Todd: Right.Julia: When a tiger gets something in its sights, you know, like where it comes from.Todd: Totally.Julia: No, I'm not so much a tiger mum, no.Todd: So you're a soccer mom.Julia: More of a soccer mum I think, yeah.Todd: That's good. Yeah, that's what I would want, a soccer mom.Julia: A soccer mum, yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Todd: Now there's a couple that are kind of, that are not as nice. They can be positive or negative like for example a helicopter parent.Julia: A helicopter parent? What's that?Todd: So a helicopter parent is basically a parent that just hovers over their child all the time. They're always worried about their child. They follow them everywhere. They want to know what they're doing at all times and they just worry a lot. They're so worried...Julia: That sounds very stressful.Todd: Yeah.Julia: As a parent.Todd: They're always worried their child's going to get hurt or something, you know, or they just are just over-protective, I guess yeah. So are you a helicopter parent?Julia: No, I don't think so, no. No, I'm very happy for my daughter to have independence.Todd: That's good. That's good. So you don't like, if she goes outside for a few minutes or if she's, you know, you hear some clanging in the next room, you don't go rushing over.Julia: No. I wait for the tears before I go over.Todd: Smart, smart. There's, recently because of a very popular book we have, it's called the Tiger Mom.Julia: A Tiger Mum?Todd: Yeah, Tiger Mom.Julia: Sounds cool. Is it a positive term or is it a negative?Todd: It is kind of. Actually it comes, the tiger I think comes from the Asian reference. It's like for an Asian mother and it's basically really strict, really driven, like really push your kids, make them study hard, demand good grades, demand that they do extracurricular activities, really push them to have high paying careers or successful careers, do well academically and stuff like that.Julia: From very young, does this...?Todd: Yeah, from very young. The woman who wrote the book, I think it's actually called Tiger Mom and she was a Yale professor and I think she was of Chinese ancestry and she raised these very successful daughters and so she wrote a book and basically saying you need to be strict and push your kids and demand excellence. I think that's what she wrote.Julia: Is the tiger, is it reference to like the Chinese horoscope, maybe like the characteristics of the tiger for that year?Todd: No. Actually I just think it has to do with being a tiger comes from Asia, I think that's it.Julia: OK, well a tiger does have a pretty kind of aggressive or driven sort of image.Todd: Right.Julia: When a tiger gets something in its sights, you know, like where it comes from.Todd: Totally.Julia: No, I'm not so much a tiger mum, no.Todd: So you're a soccer mom.Julia: More of a soccer mum I think, yeah.Todd: That's good. Yeah, that's what I would want, a soccer mom.Julia: A soccer mum, yeah.

Managing people when you are not a people manager keeps most property management businesses within 0-200 doors. They can’t scale beyond that without hiring a significant number of people. How can you shift to outsourcing to scale, save money, and improve business operations? Today, I am talking with Todd Breen of VirtuallyinCredible, which helps answer property management leasing calls every day through its experienced call center. Also, VirtuallyinCredible can hire virtual assistants (VAs) and customer service representatives (CSRs) with or without phone skills for you and your property management business. You’ll Learn... [03:15] Outsourcing: Follow rules to get it right, and select best solution to avoid failure. [04:03] Outsource companies often find and hire virtual assistants (VAs) and other team members from foreign countries causing frustration instead of support . [06:00] Small businesses need an entrepreneur, people manager, and task-oriented employees. [07:43] People Manager Traits: They care for their staff and have strong coaching, communication, and development skills. [08:50] Avoid pitfall of a property management entrepreneur who manages a team, but shouldn’t; they’re nice people, but they’re not making money or sales for the business. [12:30] Grow your management company by adding more doors and a people manager. [13:35] Entrepreneurs are sales-oriented, driven, and willing to do things others aren’t; they start controlling everyone and everything, so they need “inspired staff.” [16:25] Systems can make or break businesses; is your business systemized; and has it established and documented processes, policies, and systems? [20:14] HR should find, hire, and train employees; supervision is quality assurance. [21:38] Three Outsource Options: Hire your own VA directly; hire a VA reseller/recruiter; or select turnkey solution to hire VA for you. [27:54] Ask for and get good reviews by offering good service. [38:30] Don’t underestimate or overestimate software; technology is another tool. besides outsourcing that creates leverage, and lowers operational and staffing costs. Tweetables Property management businesses can’t scale, stay stale without hiring lots of people. Shift to outsourcing to scale, save money, and improve business operations. Outsourcing: Get it right by following rules and avoid failure by selecting a solution Lifeblood of Real Estate Business: Answer phone, get listing, rent/sell new listing Resources Todd Breen’s Email VirtuallyinCredible HireSmartVAs GatherKudos SuperTenders Property Meld EZ Repair Hotline DGS 39: Property Management Outsourcing with Todd Breen DGS 43: How Virtually Incredible Can Help a Property Management Business Grow with Todd Breen DoorGrow Website Score Quiz DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive The online Windows XP simulator runs in a web browser and its operation imitates the operating system. You can use it to prank someone. Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, and expand your rent roll, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, expand the market, and help the best property managers win. If you enjoy this episode, do me a favor, open up iTunes, find the DoorGrowShow, subscribe, and then give us a real review. Thank you for helping us with that vision. I’m your host, property management growth hacker Jason Hull, the founder of OpenPotion, GatherKudos, ThunderLocal, and of course, DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. Today’s guest, I have with me, the wise, experienced, property management guru, Todd Breen. Todd, welcome to the show. Todd: Thanks, Jason. It’s awesome to be here. Jason: Todd, you are talking to us live right now from Manila, right? Todd: That’s correct. I spend a few months a year here working with our team and been enjoying my time here, and getting a lot of work done. It’s an honor to be on your show all the away from around the world. Jason: It’s a tropical island though, right? Todd: It is. It’s actually the cooler season right now, so it’s similar to where I live in Florida. It’s just a nice weather. Jason: Maybe there’s a little bit of fun in it while you’re there too. Todd: Yeah. I played golf today while you guys were sleeping. Jason: Yes, nice. Cool. Todd, today, we are going to be talking about outsourcing roles for small, medium, and large companies—perhaps there’s some differences there—and connected to Virtually inCredible. Tell everybody, what is your thinking behind outsourcing in general. This is a topic that used to be taboo. It used to be a bad word. “Uh-oh, they’re outsourcing. You’re not using people in the US, you’re like some sort of evil entrepreneur.” I think the temperature shifted. Todd: It has. I first started outsourcing eight years ago in 2010. Back in those days, I got a lot of raised eyebrows and funny looks. Now, when people hear that we’re outsourcing to the scale that we are, a lot of people are like, “Wow! That’s awesome! How can I save some money and improve my business operations in the process?” It’s really matured nicely. The topic today is about how to get it right if you’re going to try and outsource, whether you’re a small, medium, or large business. I’m really excited to share what I’ve learned in eight years of helping small, medium, and large businesses outsource. I’ve seen what’s worked and what hasn’t. In this, I’m just going to lay it out for you and say, “Hey, if you’ve tried and failed in the past, I can probably pinpoint how that happened.” We’ll do it in a very simple grid that I’ve made for you guys. If you’re a first timer and you want to get it done right the first time, we’re going to explain the rules for you and have what it takes to do it right and to pick the right outsourcing solution. Jason: Anyone that’s listening to this show knows we’ve had a few different companies that help with like either VAs or outsourcing or finding assistants for things, and I’ve revealed multiple times, I’ve had my fair share of failures. I’ve had team members in India, Bolivia, Philippines. Right now, the bulk of my team are in the US because I’ve had so many struggles dealing with a lot of that. But we’re now just now ourselves getting back into hiring and sourcing some talent in the Philippines to add greater support for my team and my staff. Our team has helped your team with some branding work and designing new logos, so check out Virtually inCredible’s new shiny logo. I’m really liking it. We also helped out HireSmart VAs and have cleaned up their branding. It’s been awesome getting familiar with people that are making a difference in the space of property management. You’re also making a difference in the lives of people in the Philippines. Todd: I grew up in the real estate business. My dad was a very busy real estate broker, very successful, and he was working days, nights, and weekends, and he was always answering the phone. Because he couldn’t afford not to answer the phone because the lifeblood of any real estate business is answer the phone, get a listing, answer the phone, rent or sell new listing. I have a real passion now with my four kids to give them a better quality of life as third generation property management company. They just look at me and say, “Dad, how did you do it before you could outsource your leasing lines or before you could have your own private virtual assistant that was full time helping you?” And I said, ‘Yeah, it was a lot of hard work and now, it’s a lot of smart work.” Let me get into what the rules are so that the viewers will have an idea what it takes to get the right solution for you no matter what stage of business you’re in. Is it alright with you if I share my screen? Jason: Yeah, you can share your screen. Just make sure you’re talking through it because some people would just be hearing this. Todd: I’m sharing my screen, I’m going here, I’m hitting play, and tell me if you can see my slides. Jason: Yup, I see them. Todd: If you’re a small business, you’re all three of what a business needs. Because a business needs an entrepreneur that actually is the driving force behind the business, a people manager and task a score of people or employees that actually perform the tasks needed to get the job done in the business. Me, I’m an entrepreneur, always have been my whole life, and I struggled building my management company with one thing and that was managing my staff. I was pretty good at managing owners and tenants, but you don’t work everyday, all day, eight hours a day with your homeowner and your tenant. You get intermittent relationships with them. You have to actually build a relationship with your team. Whether it’s inhouse, whether it’s onshore, whether it’s offshore, if you can’t manage people, then my aha moment was, “I needed a people manager.” On this screen, I'm listing the things that a people manager needs. They’re good at caring for their staff. Me, as an entrepreneur, that’s not in my DNA. I’m not going to trouble you with my troubles and I appreciate it if won’t trouble me with yours. Entrepreneurs are not the warm fuzzy people managers. People managers are good at coaching, communicating, development, they take an interest in the development of the staff. I’ve got a graphic on the screen, there’s things that a people manager does. Number one, they know me. Number two, they focus on me and help me to focus. Number three, they care about me as a person. When all three of those things happen, they inspire me to do my best. There’s a long list of things that people managers do, but that inspiration in getting into the minds and hearts of the team and building a team is what a people manager does. Jason: Just to back that up, what I’ll say is, I see this a lot. That’s what I get to do all day long is—I’ve talked to hundreds of different property management entrepreneurs, especially when they get into that 2-400 door range—they end up in this pitfall where they now have a team and the trap because they’re trying to manage this team, and they have this to-do list that’s ever growing and endlessly long, and everything on their to-do list have been sitting there for more than two weeks. It’s probably there because they’re not the person that should be doing it. They’re in a situation which they are not natural managers. It’s just not who they are. Todd: Right. Jason: They end up in a difficult situation in which they’re not managing well, the team’s not performing well, and then they’re blaming the team. Todd: They’re really in the wrong role. An entrepreneur is very rarely a people manager. If we meet an entrepreneur who’s an awesome people manager, you’re looking at the one in a thousand entrepreneurs, or one in a hundred. It’s rare to see somebody who’s a gifted entrepreneur, and a wonderful people manager. Jason: Virtually, if they are really good people managers, they’re not so great at the entrepreneurship, the sales side of the business is struggling, they’re really nice to people, but they’re not making money. Todd: On the screen, I’ve got a picture of my wife and I right now. My wife is the consummate, ultimate people manager. She’s tremendous in managing people. We have a team of well over 150 here in the Philippines. They all think of her as the mother goose or mother hen, but they love and respect her, and they all do for her above and beyond because they’re inspired by her. It’s awesome for me to see that because I don’t have that skill set and it’s wonderful, it defines our company. Let me explain to you why that’s so important. If you are a small business, you’re the entrepreneur, and you hire your first staff member—maybe it’s a property manager, maybe it’s a secretary, or a receptionist, maybe it’s an inspector, or a work person/handyman—as soon as you start managing people and you’re not a people manager, that’s what keeps most property management businesses in the 0-200 doors. Because you can’t scale beyond 200 doors without hiring a significant number of people. Whether you hire them yourself, or you outsource them, it’s up to you, but you need people to blow past 200 doors. The companies, they get from 150-200 doors and grow up to 500 doors, they have to develop a people manager and get reliable people that work for them. There’s ways that you can get a people manager. You can hire one directly. By the way, if you were 500 or more doors, the companies that are 800-1000, 2000 doors, let me tell you something, they have a people manager on staff. Jason: Sometimes multiple. Todd: That people manager is the reason why they’ve hit that level and it’s the missing ingredient. Everyone says how do I grow my management company. I say, We’ll, there’s two ways to grow your management company. One is add more doors but at some point, you’re going to need to add a people manager.” You can actually rent a people manager or you can hire one depending on how you outsource. That’s one of the keys to today’s lessons is, “Hey, if I’m 100 doors and all I really want to do is get to 200 because the cash flow just looks so amazing then I want to go to 300. How do I best do it?” There’s some real super rules that I’m going to walk you through on how to do that. I’ve switched screens here now, for those who are listening. If you don’t have a people manager, you’ll have staff turnover, more than you want staff turnover. You’ll notice that it’s easier to get bad reviews than it is to get good reviews because you don’t have inspired staff on your team. You’re going to hit a slower growth process because normally what happens is, the entrepreneurs grows the business to the first 100, 200 doors and then, unless the entrepreneur replaces him or herself and stays working in BDM or business development and growth, then they’re going to slow down on their growth. They won’t know what to do to kickstart the growth because they’re so busy putting out fires because they’re not a people manager. Their lifestyle will suffer and they’ll say, “I’m not having any fun.” Jason: You’re referring to inspired staff. I heard this phrase several years ago that’s always stuck with me that I believe it’s true, that I love sharing with people connected to this and it’s, “Whenever we fail to inspire, we always control. Whenever we fail to inspire, we always control.” What ends up happening is, as entrepreneurs, because we’re generally really driven, risk-oriented somewhat and we’re willing to do things that other people aren’t willing to do—and sometimes we’re more sales-oriented and driven—by default if we’re not able to get people to do things, we start just controlling. The opposite is to make them inspired and they just do it. You’ll end up with these business owners that are trying to micromanage, push their team, control them, force goals on them, and they aren’t inspired to do any of it. These are the team members that are B players, that’s the only ones that will stick around in a situation like that, and they are the ones that are complaining about you, the boss, and they go home and live for the weekend. They’re just hoping to get a paycheck. That creates a company culture of hiders, they’re hiding. Todd: They’re hiding even when they’re at work. They might hide behind their voicemail. What’s the solution? We pointed out that if you are a small business and you want to go to large, at some stage you’re going to need a people manager. You can actually hire a local people manager which might cost you $50,000 or $80,000—depending on where you are—or you can hire a virtual people manager for some of the tasks at your business. By doing that, you’re now a well-rounded business. You have the entrepreneur, you have the virtual and local employees, and you have a virtual people manager. We’re going to ask you guys to rate your business. How do you rate for systems? If you’re listening to this right now, “Am I systemized, yes or no?” And if you answer is, “Yeah, I’ve got a system for everything.” If I hire somebody, I sit in my desk, and they can open a training manual, and they can open policies and procedures manual and all of the answers are there. If the answer is that you’ve got your policies, procedures, and systems setup, then you’re halfway there to being able to onboard people. A lot of people, small business owners, and entrepreneurs, they do the trial by fire. They’ll hire somebody, sit him at the desk and say, “Figure it out,” and if the person survives, then they walk through the fire, and if not, they burn up, burn out, or they leave, or they get fired. And that’s all due to a lack of systems, policies, and procedures. Now, what I’ve seen is that in the 0-150 doors, unless you have a franchise that they’re giving you every system that you could imagine, and even some that you don’t need, and then you tailor them to your local market, unless you’re one of those people who has bought or created your own systems, policies, and procedures, then from 0-150, you’re winging it. You’re figuring it out yourself and it’s all in your head. If you’re listening to this you’ll say, “Yeah, that’s me.” Then what’s going to happen whether you hire a local staff or a virtual staff and it’s all in your head? Jason: For those listening, they can break it down even further because in a business there’s not just like one system. A lot of people think, I just need a process system for processes. Every business needs some sort of sales system in their business. They need a communication system as a team in order to communicate effectively. They need a planning system in their business—which a lot of businesses don’t really have—for setting goals and milestones and allowing people to know what outcomes that are being worked towards. They need an accounting system, and they need a process system, if I didn’t already say that, for documenting, capturing all the process. Whether it’s a manual or something like Process Tree. And they need a support system for managing all the customer requests and everything else. They might be a 10 on 1 of these and a 1 on another. It really takes all of these different systems. And then you need processes for all the documented. Todd: What happens is in those 0-150, most entrepreneurs still haven’t even started with these systems. From the 150-500, they slowly come to realize that, “These systems are going to make me or break me.” By the way, we’ve outsourced for large businesses that are over 500 and they still have horrible systems, horrible policies, horrible procedures, and believe it or not, really interesting staff and that’s the nice way to put it. Jason: That’s probably the norm which is sad. Occasionally, you’ll see the conversed side where you’ll see somebody that is super systems-oriented entrepreneur. They’re basically an operator trying to function as the CEO. They will focus so much on process, and operations, and systems and they have no revenue. Todd: It went off work and they’re not growing. If you’re good at systems, give yourself a pat on the back with your policies and procedures. The next we’re going to talk about is your HR. If you;re going to grow your business and scale it and have quality and lifestyle, you have to have HR that can find good people. Then you have to get those people trained, and training does not mean you sit up the desk and figure it out, it means, before we put people to work on their tasks, nobody goes to work with less than one week of training. That’s 40 hours of specific human training. It’s a live trainer, training somebody with what’s our business, what’s out vision, mission, values, and then how do you do the actual tasks that you’ve been hired to do. Supervision is quality assurance and etc. If you have all of those things, probably, you’re closer to 500 and more doors. If you’re missing any of those things, you’re probably in that 0-400 doors. You can say, “I’m good at some, but man, I got major holes and others.” That really impacts how you should outsource. I’ve got a graph up on the screen. The graph talks about if I am rough on my systems or rough on my HR, in other words, if I didn’t rate myself high on that last five minutes of conversation, how should I outsource. The answer is, you have three choices: You can hire your own virtual assistant direct by going to the destination country, for instance, the Philippines, wherever, and you can run your ad and try and hire somebody. Not recommended for anybody of any size that’s rough on their systems or rough on their HR for obvious reasons. Jason: Yeah. You’re setting them up for failure. Todd: Yeah. I see people say, “I don’t need a reseller or a turn-key. I’ll just do it myself.” I’m like, “How are you doing with your systems and you HR with you onshore operations because that’s going to directly impact or give you an insight into how your offshore is going to be?” And then they look at me and say, “Yeah, not so good.” I’m like, “Well, running out of the country isn’t going to make it better.” The first option is to hire your own virtual staff direct. The second is hire a VA reseller which is either a recruiter or somebody who will actually stick around after they recruit for you. And then the third option is, “Hey, I just want a turnkey solution that will take care of it for me. In other words, I want staff but I’m paying you to also provide me good systems and processes and good HR because I don’t have that yet. In fact, I don’t think I’m going to have it anytime soon because I’m busy in that 0-150 doors just getting volume and growing my business.” If I can figure out a way to affordably get good systems and HR brought into me by outsourcing, that sounds like a dream job to me. This tells you that turnkey is your number one solution. If you can go to somebody that offers turnkey outsourcing and just give them some process or system or some of the workflow from your business, and then it’s called set it and forget it, and just manage the results, you’ll be thrilled. If you hire a reseller, you may or may or be thrilled based on how well systemized those systems are for the work that you give. “Have you got a system, or policy, and procedure for the specific work that you’re giving?” And/or, “How good are you at managing onshore staff and how well do you think you could manage some offshore staff?” Jason: Right. Todd: Let me go to the next screen which is a hiring guide; if you have good systems already in place and you have a people manager. In my case my wife, in your case, if you have somebody who’s a good people manager, wow, what should I do? The answer is, the world is your oyster. You can do turnkey from 0-150 and that allows you to just focus on growing your business. And then when you start hiring locally, from 150-600 doors, it means that it’s one last thing to worry about. Now, 600 and more doors, you’d be looking at a big bill from a turnkey operator and you’d be saying, “Look, I can do this myself. I should take this over inhouse with either my own DA resellers,” where I pay a recruiter to hire me an offshore staff, or by going to the destination country yourself to hire which can all be done virtually or you can actually take some trips depending on how far away you go. But good systems, good HR, and a people manager is important before you start hiring individual offshore staff that are going to report to you and work for you directly. Does that make sense? Jason: Absolutely. I think people really need to realize that they need to figure out what’s the best fit and works for them. One of the biggest mistakes I see people really early on is their default thought is, “I need to go hire somebody like me right here in the US.” That’s the first employee. They’re like, “I need to go get another me and duplicate myself,” and they’re doing 20 different things; they’re wearing 20 different hats. They go to try to hire and they’re not ready for that. They can’t even bring on somebody, they really should with technology and just start with outsourcing solutions like Virtually inCredible because you’re bringing to the table a lot of the stuff they aren’t even aware of that they might need yet. Todd: One of the things that I outsource at my management company, for those who are listening who aren’t aware, I had a property management company since 1985. I used to absolutely hate the answering my leasing calls because I knew if I didn’t answer them during the day then I had no return calls. I knew if I didn’t answer them in the evening or on the weekend then I wasn’t going to fill my vacancies and I’d have to return more messages. My phone was glued to my ear. I decided to outsource my leasing calls and so many other managers heard about and said, “Will you take my calls too?” It’s such a systemized process with us that it’s not like you could just hire somebody if you’re 120 doors. You can’t hire somebody for what you pay us because you’re going to pay more for your outsourced people, and they’ll only answer 40 hours a week, and we’re answering 80 plus hours a week. There’s a stage which it makes sense to take it over yourself, but there’s a stage where you just say, “Get rid of this and let me focus on other stuff.” When we talk about capacity in online reviews, this is the DoorGrow Show and Jason, I’m one of your customers for the review, what’s the software you have? Jason: GatherKudos. Todd: GatherKudos, thank you. I think we’ve had it for several years. We’ve had good reviews in my management company and that’s because we offer good service, and we ask for the reviews. Seasonal workload variations can actually impact your reviews. Let me explain to you why. I’m going to show you what the variations look like. This is what your work orders look like. This is from Super Tenders. Hundreds of thousands of doors went into this. In January until May, you don’t have near the work orders that you do in June, July, August, September and then it’s slower a little bit again in the fall. You’ve literally got double the work orders between April and July. April is half of what July is. How do you staff for that in your business? Jason: Yeah. The question is, “Are you going to just double staff and then fire half your staff every season?” Todd: What happens is, if you look at when you get your bad reviews from tenants who are tired of work orders taking forever to get done, you’re getting those reviews typically, not April, you get them in June, July, August, September. That’s when the majority of bad reviews come in. It’s no secret, if you’re not staffed for the increase in volume, you’re going to have a problem. At my management company, we use Property Meld to technology, really accelerates the communication process and then we use EZ Repair Hotline. Now I can outsource. I’m pretty good at it, but I hire somebody else to do my work order outsourcing because they’re pretty good at it. I haven’t chosen to do that in the Philippines yet and it’s got a US-based team. What do they call about eating your own dog food or drinking your own Kool-Aid? I outsource to other people at my management company because it makes sense for me to do it and I’m under 300 doors. I’m not at that stage where it makes sense for me to take it over. The same goes for our leasing call volumes. This is data courtesy of Virtual inCredible. This is our call volumes across the entire United States on a monthly basis, and you can see, December’s the slowest month of the year. Thank goodness, right? Going into the holidays. November, December are great, but literally there’s double the volume between December and June. June is going to crush you and people say, “Man, I can’t answer my calls or my properties take longer to rent.” It’s because you’re not really staffed to handle it right. This is called a heat map. For those of you who are listening, it’s a counter Monday through Sunday, and it shows the darker hours of the day are when we have higher call volumes and the lighter colors are lower call volumes. Throughout the course of the week, on an 80-hours of answering your calls, days, evening, and weekends, there’s a tremendous call volume variation between Monday all day. By the way, there is a reason why Mondays are Mondays. Your phone’s going to ring with your highest call volume on your leasing calls on Monday. Jason: Compared from the weekend because we aren’t generally doing it over the weekend. Todd: Or they didn’t get you on the weekend. It could that too. Wednesday is a calm day. How do you staff for that? When you’re at 120 doors. When it’s just all hands on deck at all times when you’re at that volume. It makes sense to just say, “Hey, take my calls. When I grow to a certain stage, I’ll take them back.” That’s where people are able to make a tremendous good decision for their business because if you’re under capacity, under staffed, you’re going to get bad reviews. Jason: Yeah. Todd: If you have sufficient capacity at all times throughout the season of workload variations, you can get good reviews if you ask for them. If you have too much capacity, too many staff, you’ll get good reviews but your profit will suffer. Managing that becomes a full time job when you go past 500 or 600 doors, you’ll start to do that yourself but under that, it just makes sense to outsource some of these stuff. It will save you a tremendous amount of time and money, it’ll make getting good reviews easier, it’ll make your staff happier to get rid of some of your high seasonal workload that varies a lot, and just outsource it until you’re big enough to take it back inhouse. Jason: And if you’re built out to the point where you can handle the amount of seasonal growth and seasonal increase, then what happens during those lean times, you end up with team members that are sitting at unused capacity. Nobody likes being in a position, or a job in which they feel like they’re meaningless, or there’s lack of purpose except really bad team members that you wouldn’t want. Todd: They’ll never tell you that they’re not busy. Jason: Yes. They will never say, “Oh, I have so much extra time right now. I’m probably not relevant during these few months. I probably shouldn’t be here.” It makes a lot of sense. Todd: If you’re a small company and growing, this is the last part, I don’t have slides for this, maybe I’ll stop sharing my screen. Jason: I’ll point out, connected to that, it’s not a great investment to have a team member that’s sitting in the garage half the time not being used. Imagine you live in a big city, and you’re taking the subway all the time, and you have this expensive car that you’re maintaining constantly but you’re not using. Financially, it becomes incredibly costly to have a team that is under utilized especially if they’re US-based staff, they’re really expensive, and you’re not just able to use them. You’re [inaudible 00:34:56] the money whether you’re using them or not. They’re not making any money. Todd: Can you imagine what it’s like being me? We’ve got hundreds of staff and our volume is following that curve. We figure out how to do it. There’s something I wanted to share. This is on a personal note from a guy who’s grown a management company through a few cycles. If you’re in that 150 or less, I want you to ask yourself, “Is it easy to get leads to grow my business?” If it is, great, if it’s not, check out DoorGrow, check out some great ways to get improve your leads. Second is, “Am I too busy to grow my business being an operator instead of being an owner?” An owner knows how to grow a business and knows how to keep the capacity to grow the business open because that’s what it takes. You know, 60% or 70% of calls to a business are your leasing calls. When you’re sitting there answering somebody who says, “How much is that house with the red door?” You’re considering the brain damage that’s giving you. Meanwhile, your phone’s ringing on line two and it’s an owner who has a nice listing and you didn’t get to that call. If you’re struggling to grow your business and you have leads, but you’re not growing your business, man, clear your plate, get rid of some of your work, and grow your business. You can always take it back. And then work on reducing your labor costs. If you’re in the stage in your business where, “Oh I don’t get enough leads or I don’t want to grow my business.” Well then fine tune your business, that’s great. But as long as you can grow and you want to grow, clear your plate and move forward on growth which is your highest dollar. People are valuing management companies at between $2000 and $4000 per door. Each new listing that you can sign up is going to increase your net worth, your asset value of your company by $2000 or $3000. If you can get five new listings in a month, and that’s worth $3000 a listing, we’re talking $10,000-$15,000, that’s what you’re increasing your net worth. You grow up that rate in a year and you’re $150,000 and $200,000 in your net worth. It’s all because you’re focused on growth and clearing the decks to make it possible. That’s what it takes to grow your business. Then as you bring in the new volume of work, decide carefully, “Should I insource or outsource? Do I have a people manager or don’t I? What’s the best way that’s going to keep the machine moving forward?” That’s what I tell people because if they fail that outsourcing, I usually say, “Well, who’s the people manager?” And when the entrepreneur says, “I am.” I’m like, “Oh, okay.” Jason: It didn’t work for me. You just did it wrong. Todd: Did you learn something, Jason? Relative to your world and your lives that you’ve been living with our outsourcing? Jason: Absolutely. All of these makes so much sense. Over the last decade, I’ve had plenty of failures in outsourcing things or I’m trying to do things. I think if I were to add one thing to this is one thing that has really helped me is to not underestimate or overestimate technology. Because technology, like you mentioned, like Property Meld for example, technology is another tool besides outsourcing that creates leverage, and lowers operational costs, and lower staffing cost. A lot of people will try to go cheap on software. I believe that when it comes to software, you want the best tools, the best softwares. I have spent a lot of money on software tools and I buy the best. I don’t buy the Swiss Army knife that can do everything crapily or terribly, but I buy the best in each category to make sure we have the best systems for process, or the best communications system in our business. That allows my team to get more done, and be more efficient, and more effective. Whether you’re going to outsource directly or you’re going to outsource to companies, make sure that you have the best tools available software-wise because even if software costs you hundreds of dollars a month, people are always going to be more. If you can give them the tools that they need to do the job well, you’re collapsing your cost and making them far more efficient, and it always pays off. Todd: Very true. Listen, if anyone has any questions about this, I’ll just briefly tell you how we can help you at our company. We do answer your leasing calls, we also have a tenant screening department. That scales too because you get your number of applications in the summer, is a heck a lot more than it is in the winter. We do that. Those are full termkey systems, where you’re actually putting a department into place and you don’t need a local department to do either of those tasks. In addition to that, we also have a brand new service where we’ll hire an individual VA for you with or without phone skills. You can get an admin VA or you can get a CSR, a customer service rep that can answer calls for you, and they’re all screened by our company and trained in property management. I used to be a trainer for the Property Management Academy. We put all of our people through all of that training now before they show up at your job. You get screening and training though our VA. If you like some more information, just send an email to todd@virtuallyincredible.com. Be happy to help you out however I can. Jason: Awesome. For those listening, when we put on our conference, DoorGrow Live, we gave Virtually inCredible an award because they have consistently been one of the best in class or the best in their category for what they do inside the DoorGrow Club and inside the feedback that we hear from clients. It’s not just my recommendation, it’s a recommendation of a lot of people, and you provide a really good experience for people. You are making a difference in the industry. Todd: Yeah, thanks. We’re having a ball and appreciate all you’re doing to help people grow with creative ways that aren’t obvious. I’ve been through some of your education, it’s really high quality. Thank you for what you do. Jason: Appreciate it. Todd, thanks so much for coming on the show, and appreciate you sharing all these insights. I think there’s some solid takeaways that people listening this show. I think some rising like start with technology, then start with outsourcing to a solution like Virtually inCredible, and then maybe once you start getting some things dialed in, you might want to start bringing the staff in-house eventually, but you may not. It’s going well. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Todd: That’s right. Jason: Todd, thanks again. Todd: Alright, guys. Take care. Jason: Alright, it’s great having Todd on the show. Again, to make sure to check out the previous episodes in which we talked specifically about leasing lines and the challenges with those with Todd. You can just search for Todd Breen and DoorGrowShow, one word. If you are listening to this on iTunes, be sure to give us your feedback in iTunes, they helps us out, also makes us aware of how you feel about the show. We love getting your feedback on these different shows, and make sure you are inside our Facebook community where you can hang out with cool people like Todd and other really savvy entrepreneurs. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com and this is a community unlike any other. It’s a special community of property management business owners that believe in this vision and message that collaboration is more significant and important than competition in what this industry needs right now. If you love the idea of collaboration and helping level up the entire industry, we’re just going to help every property management business owner succeed and grow this business and industry and get more market share then that’s the place for you, that’s your home. Join us in the DoorGrow Club. Thanks everybody for tuning in. Until next time to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff: SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time. Take what you’ve learned and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: So, Kate, are you into movies?Kate: Yeah, I watch them from time to time.Todd: What actors or actresses do you like?Kate: My favorite actor would be Brad Pitt.Todd: Really, Brad Pitt? Now is that because he's handsome or because he's a good actor?Kate: He's handsome but he's actually a very good actor. I like him because he is very well respected in Hollywood. You look at the other actors and they've all had these scandals: drinking scandals, drug scandals but I haven't heard of anything about Brad Pitt.Todd: That's true actually. Come to think of it, I never have. What's a movie that he was in that you really liked?Kate: Ocean's Eleven. That was a very, very good movie.Todd: Yeah, any other movies that you really liked?Kate: I can't think of the names right now, but he has a recent movie out called ‘Mr. and Mrs. Smith' I think, and it's with Angelina Jolie.And that's ... did you hear about that?Todd: No, I haven't actually.Kate: They heard….Angelina Jolie is said to have been with Brad Pitt while they were making the movie, although Brad Pitt is supposed to be with Jennifer Anniston.Todd: Right so they're married, right?Kate: Yes, they were.Todd: They were married?Kate: They separated.Todd: But they're not divorced?Kate: Not divorced, no.Todd: Oh OK, no I didn't know that.So as a Brad Pitt fan who do you think is more his type? Mrs. Jolie or Mrs. Anniston?Kate: I prefer Jennifer Anniston because she's more calm and more… they seem like they could have a nice little family together, but Angelina Jolie, she's very wild and keeps partying and …Todd: Yeah, they do seem like they're different, that's true.Kate: Yeah, very different.Todd: What is it about Brad Pitt's features that you think make him attractive?Kate: I like his smile, his eyes. That's generally what I go for.Todd: So in a guy, you look for a nice smile and nice eyes?Kate: Definitely. From first impressions, from the first look, definitely the smile and eyes. If they stand out, I will go for them.Todd: Oh, very interesting. OK, thanks

In this episode of Building Infinite Red, Jamon, Ken, and Todd touch on the exciting world of lawyers, accountants and bookkeepers, as well as a variety of finance-related topics such as cash flow and different types of accounting. Be sure to listen to the end of the episode as Jamon shares the vision for Season 2 of Building Infinite Red. Show Links & Resources YNAB – You Need A Budget Saturday Night Live Highlight: First CityWide Change Bank Episode Transcript TODD WERTH: Hello, everyone. Today we were talking about which topic to talk about, and we had the idea, how can we come up with a topic that's extremely boring, that no one wants to talk about, but actually is super important? So, we're going to talk about lawyers, accountants, bookkeepers, finance, and other things. Basically, how to start a business and still feed your family. Let's start off with you, Ken. If I were starting in business and you and I are sitting in the airport and I knew you had started one and I asked, "Hey, Ken. What should I worry about first off when I'm starting a business?" What would you say? KEN MILLER: I would tell you to go find a good accountant and a good lawyer right away. You don't need to pay them to set up the business for you. You can do that yourself or you can use a service like LegalZoom or something like that. But you need to have somebody who is familiar with the kind of business that you're planning to do. We have a great lawyer who happens to specialize in digital agencies. I've got an accountant that I've personally worked with for many, many years. It's not the cheapest, like you want your accountant to be good. A bookkeeper is sort of a different matter since your accountant is not doing your day to day books, and you don't necessarily need a bookkeeper right away because you're probably not going to have a lot of transactions right away. To be honest, I found it was helpful for me to just do it personally for a little period because then I understood what was going on better. JAMON HOLMGREN: Ken, what's the difference for those who may not know between an accountant and a bookkeeper? KEN: Well, I'm told bookkeeper is a little bit old fashioned, but it's still very descriptive. Your accountant, aka your CPA, your Certified Public Accountant, that is someone who will do your state and federal and maybe even international taxes for you. They may or may not have people who will keep your books and stuff. Now, bookkeepers, they're the ones who will record transactions coming in and going out basically, so that your books are an accurate reflection of what's happening in your business. Todd, do you want to interject? TODD: Yeah, just real quick. Sorry to be pedantic, but my wife's an accountant. Bookkeepers often are not accountants. Some of them are just people who started doing books at their company and continue to do it. When you get to accountants, you have two types of accountants: One is CPA, which is a tax accountant; and then there are other accountants who specialize in corporate stuff, like my wife. She went to college for it and is highly trained. KEN: That's the kind I recommend you get, is the kind of who is trained in accounting practices. JAMON: First of all, what's the more modern term for a bookkeeper? Is there? KEN: I think Heather liked the term, what was it? Financial assistant, something like that? JAMON: Okay. TODD: I think that's what she said. Heather is my wife, by the way. JAMON: And then secondly, what does an accountant give you that a financial assistant does not? KEN: Well, A, They are literally certified by the state. And B, They have experience in tax law. JAMON: CPA does, but they're more corporate accountant. They're going to bring more like ... It's my understanding that they can bring more strategic ... KEN: Yeah, they can be more strategic help, they can help you design your practices for paying people, for collecting money, because there's just a lot of i's and t's that need to be dotted and crossed. JAMON: Yeah, that makes sense. TODD: Yeah, not to keep on interrupting about accounting. Sorry, my wife's an accountant. JAMON: We're gonna play a little game. How many times will Todd mention that his wife is an accountant? TODD: All CPAs are accountants. Not all accountants are CPAs. My wife has absolutely no interest in being a CPA, she never did, it had nothing to do with her job. However, if you need ... One of the things she specializes in is international accounting. So, a bookkeeper is someone who enters data, basically. They're gonna get bills in from the outside via mail, they're gonna enter those into the bookkeeping system, or the accounting system, they're gonna pay invoices, whatever. They're a clerk. An accountant is more like a programmer. They investigate where things went wrong, they figure out the best ways to do things. If you have a half million dollars in pounds in the UK, and you need to transfer in the US as US dollars, how do you go about that? There's very different ways. Some are very expensive, some are not. So, that's ... An accountant spends a lot of time doing strategic-type accounting stuff, as opposed to data entry, which is more what your bookkeeper does. JAMON: Yeah, so when I started ClearSight back in 2005, one of my early employees, his dad was a controller, which is like kind of an accountant, but it's specifically to a- TODD: That's really interesting, Jamon. Did you know my wife was an accountant? JAMON: I did not know that, Todd. I hope you remind me again. A controller is basically, it's a type of accountant that's kind of high up in a company and focused on ... Basically, in charge of the company's finances, and ... So, he was a controller and I went to lunch with him and I asked him for advice. And the first question he asked me, this was kind of interesting because I did not expect this, he said, "How's your accounts receivable?" And I was like, "Uh ... I know what that is, but what do you mean by 'how is it'?" And he kind of helped me think through my terms, like how long until the payment was due, and was I taking money upfront? Which I wasn't, weirdly, I wasn't taking money upfront. I was just doing the work and hoping I'd get paid. TODD: Hoping is the key term. JAMON: Hoping, yeah. And more than once I didn't get paid. And that sucked, especially when I wasn't getting paid very much. KEN: That's definitely one of the harder things to learn when you start doing this, is if you've only ever worked at a company, you don't realize how much effort goes into just getting people to actually pay you, right? 99% of the time it isn't out of any malice, it's not people trying to mess with you, it's just their processes are also run by humans. Maybe they're a small company, maybe they're a big company and something got lost, or things didn't get signed off correctly, right? There's just a million little things that have to be kept track of. And so, whoever is doing your day to day accounting, be nice to them. TODD: Yes. KEN: Be nice to them because you really need to trust them to be on top of what they're doing. TODD: You do not want to piss off an accountant if you value eating, for sure. Cause they won't do anything wrong, but they will sure drag their feet on your particular account. One other things I wanted to add, especially with larger companies or companies that have accounting departments, accounting is never personal, okay? And Ken said they probably don't want to mess with you. They may not want to mess with you, but they may actually have a policy not to pay their vendors, which seems absurd but it's true. So, in other words, if you're sitting in an executive meeting at a company that has 5,000 people, and your cash-flow ... you need some cash or whatever. The directive to the accounting department could be, "Only pay the vendors with the highest interest, the top 25% of them. Do not pay anyone else." And so, it's not ... they're not trying to get to you, it's just business. KEN: I think it's also very tempting when you're ... If you're a creative person and you're getting into business and you wanna be able to be a partner to your clients, and that's all very laudable and we wanna do that and we strive to do that. But at the end of the day, when you're negotiating a contract, you have to take it seriously. You have to take what it says seriously because there may come a situation where it's no longer you and the friendly person you're talking to, it's just you and the contract and someone unfriendly. Or you and the contract and someone not unfriendly, but as Todd says they're just ... implementing a policy. It's a lot harder to do something about it than possible which ... It really highlights how important the relationship is, as well. So, you need to have a good contract that actually reflects what you and your counter-party actually mean. And you have to keep that relationship good all the way through. JAMON: Absolutely. We had a client a while back that wanted to use their own contract, which is not uncommon. I mean, we have our own kind of Master Services Agreement that we'll send over, but in this case they had their own, they wanted to send it over. And this sort of brings it back to having a good lawyer, because in this case, something fell through the cracks and we signed it without sending it over to our lawyer. And this was a big mistake because- TODD: Big mistake. KEN: Big mistake. Did we mention it was a very big mistake? TODD: My wife, who's an accountant, by the way, said it was a huge mistake. JAMON: Oh, she is? Oh, that's interesting. But what happened was the project started off really well, and it went very well through the first month. And then, abruptly, we don't know what happened because the whole way through the client was telling us we were doing good work. Even after things went weird, he was telling us that we were doing good work, which really didn't make sense. But he wanted out of this contract, or he wanted to hold our feet to the fire. And we realized, and we sent our contract over to our lawyer, and Ken ... Wasn't his response something like- KEN: He said it was the most punitive contract he'd ever seen. JAMON: And he said that it was designed to be used as a weapon. TODD: Yes. That's what he said. JAMON: Which was not a great place to be in after we had already signed this thing. TODD: Against us, by the way. Not for us. KEN: Yeah. JAMON: So, luckily this particular client ended up taking a route ... It wasn't an easy route, but he took a route out of our contract that let us off the hook, essentially, with some work from Ken. So, thanks Ken. But we made it through that one, but not everybody would. That could be a really big problem. So, having a good attorney, which we did, and actually using him, which we did not, is really important when you're putting these contracts together that you're talking about. And then, of course, there's a certain amount of teeth to it, so they will pay you. KEN: We designed our standard contract to be, we think, really, very fair. JAMON: I think so, yeah. KEN: And so, if a client wants to use their own contract, we now ... It always goes to the lawyer. It doesn't matter what it costs. And he's very reasonable with how he charges for that- TODD: Sorry to interrupt. That's a good rule. If you don't feel that it's worth paying your lawyer the $300 an hour, or whatever your lawyer costs, it goes up from there, trust me, because this project isn't big enough, then don't take the project. And that sounds harsh, but if you can't pay your lawyer to look at the contract, then don't sign the contract. It's not worth it to you. KEN: If it's a small project, we don't accept- JAMON: Yeah, and that's why we have a standard contract, because the lawyer drafted it. And so, we can send it over and we don't have to pay him every time. Of course, it costs more to have him draft it, but then if they sign it then we know that we're good to go. But if they want their own contract, you need to have it reviewed by your attorney. And if you don't know of an attorney, you can ask around on social media and stuff, you can generally get some recommendations. TODD: One thing I do wanna say, though. And this is often somewhat shocking to people who have never ran a business, who worked for other people or other corporations throughout their career. The world for you as a business owner, is very different than the world for you as an employee. If your employer doesn't pay you, you can go to the labor board, and the government will come in and they will sue that company and they'll get that money for you. Because of that, your employer's gonna pay you. KEN: And your wages are legally privileged. So, if they're in bankruptcy, you get your money, not necessarily the very first, but it's a very high priority. It's a very high priority debt. TODD: Correct. If you have a personal contract with ... between two people or between two companies, or between you and a company, there are no such protections whatsoever. You will get paid if the person who's paying you wants to pay you. If they don't pay you, there's no government agency you're going to go to who's gonna help you- KEN: Well, there's the courts. JAMON: The court, basically. TODD: ... other than the courts. And if you're talking about a $10,000 bill that they owe you, you are not going to court for that. You can try to go small claims court, that kind of thing. But the reality is you're not going to go to court for that. And people know this. And there's a lot of people ... And you're like, "Well, you know, I did this contract with Bob, and Bob's wonderful. I mean, I love Bob. He spends his time saving orphan kittens on the weekends." That's great, but Bob's company was just bought by Joe, and Joe is a complete jerk. And Joe now has all your contracts. And Joe used to be a lawyer, bless his heart. And Joe knows that you're not gonna do anything when he doesn't pay your $10,000, so he just refuses to pay you. JAMON: By the way, this is not a hypothetical, this happened to me. TODD: And so, we changed the names, obviously. But Joe does that, and there's really nothing you're gonna do and you're just gonna lose that $10,000. You can try to do collections and irritate them into paying you. But here's the raw fact, if they need you for something they will pay you. Meaning if you still have work to do, they will pay you because they need you. Be very weary of the end of a working engagement when they no longer need you. KEN: This is not to say that everybody is like this. There's plenty of extremely honorable- TODD: Like Bob, Bob's one of them. KEN: ... companies out there. Yes, there's many, many, many great, wonderful, honorable clients who pay what they owe, and they would never screw you. TODD: Correct. KEN: But there's more people out there who, like I said, not necessarily even out of malice, sometimes just out of laziness, kind of don't get around to it. TODD: Another example is if you get a contract where you take liability for stuff that you really have no control over. So, you're like, "Well, Bob's not gonna sue me. Bob's a great guy. He has the same values as I do." But Bob gets successful and Google comes and buys Bob, trust me. Google's lawyers will sue you. If they can, they will. It's not personal, it's just business. JAMON: Beyond accounts receivable, which is obviously a big topic ... And by the way, get as much money upfront as you can. That's a very straightforward way to fix some of this stuff. But beyond that, accountants can also give you a really great insight into the engine of your business. So, they're sort of like your oil pressure. They're your check engine light. And they will give you information that allows you to make decisions, business decisions, going forward. So, an example of this is how much are we gonna pay our employees for bonuses? We need to know what we can afford and what's budgeted for that. Other examples are could we go out and maybe acquire a small business? Or can we invest a bunch of money into R&D? These are all things that we've actually looked at within Infinite Red over the past three years. And we needed to have good information from our bookkeepers and our accountants. And we haven't had always that. That has actually been one of the stumbling blocks that we've run into with Infinite Red, is that we've run into situations where we've been fed what turned out to be inaccurate information. And we've made decisions based on that, and it's caused the engine to run more roughly. KEN: Suffice to say, you really need it to be accurate. So, one of the things that we've done to help make that be the case is that we have our CPA, our tax accountant, and our bookkeepers are totally different, so that we at least have two competent people looking at it periodically. It's not a perfect safeguard by any stretch of the imagination, but it does help a little bit. JAMON: And it's tempting to have one company do both, right? KEN: It is tempting. And I would argue you should not do that. JAMON: Always keep them separate. TODD: Yeah, I would say at the beginning, you do your bookkeeping and then let your CPA do the taxes. And we get to a point where ... For instance, this is the difference between a bookkeeper and an accountant. If you're setting up your books and you're setting up your own chart of accounts, and that kind of stuff, a bookkeeper will just do it. They'll do what you say. Put this in here. Do this, do that. An accountant will say, "Okay. You see how you set up your accounts here? Later, when you get audited ..." And then you're like, "Why would we get audited, what does that even mean?" Well if you need a big loan, the banks are gonna require an audit your finances. Obviously that's the audit on the tax side, but that's your tax accountant. And so, what she'll do is she'll say, "Look, I've been through many audits, this is what they're going to look for. You should set it up this way so that that audit goes smoothly so that loan you need ... Say you get a big new client and you need $250,000 to service that client, and you're gonna make millions? Delaying that loan by a week or two could be disastrous." So, that's the difference between an accountant and a bookkeeper. They know what they know, and they know what's possibly gonna happen. JAMON: Yeah. Banks are a whole other aspect about this that we could talk about. One of the things about banks is that they are generally very slow. You're just one file on their desk. They're not particularly invested in making sure you succeed. And it can really trip you up. Like if you need that loan ... We've been in a situation where we said, "Hey, we wanna borrow some money for a particular thing." And it took ... I think ... I don't remember the timeline, but it was months longer than I expected. Like it was a lot longer. KEN: It took forever. JAMON: Yes. And it felt like most of the issue was on the bank side. Now, being prepared for that, as Todd said, is really important. KEN: In that particular case, there was something that didn't get filed correctly two years ago with the ... I mean, it's ... JAMON: So, another aspect of this, and we can touch a little bit on another property of our business, and that is remote work, is the- TODD: Oh God, banks and remote work. JAMON: Banks, as well as government agencies ... Ken, you've had to set up I don't know how many states now for Infinite Red employees. KEN: Seven, and I need to set up an eighth. JAMON: Yeah. So, this is a whole aspect of kind of the boring ... We're talking about the boring parts of business. But if you're starting a remote work company and you're hiring people from all over, you need to keep this in mind that you're gonna have to set up, what's it called? Nexus? If you have nexus, you have to set up the state ... KEN: Yeah. And having an employee- TODD: What is nexus, by the way? KEN: Nexus just means that you legally exist in a location. And typically the place where you have nexus or not have nexus, as a US company, is in individual states. So, if you have ordered something online and you live in a sales tax state, but they didn't charge you sales tax, the reason they didn't have to do that is because they don't have nexus in your state. So, famously Amazon, for a long time, didn't have nexus in California, or at least they argued that they didn't. And so, Californians didn't have to pay sales tax when they ... I mean, nominally they were supposed to be paying it to the state, but Amazon didn't have to collect it for them. So, that's nexus, and it applies to all kinds of tax, not just sales tax. So, for example, basically everywhere we have an employee, we have to pay taxes. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: This is one of the less glamorous, less wonderful parts about remote work, to be honest. JAMON: There are PEOs or POEs ... KEN: PEOs. JAMON: PEOs, and those will ... They're basically companies that have all this stuff figured out already and you hire your employees through them. KEN: Yes. I believe there's some issues with that. If I were doing this over again, I probably would go with a PEO to avoid a lot of that stuff. JAMON: They're expensive, but they kind of ... They make it ... It's sort of like, in a software engineering world, using Heroku, which kind of spins it all up for you, versus setting up individual Amazon AWS servers. TODD: The other problem with banking, especially with governments in general, is their complete ignorance of the laws about things like signatures. So, I think this is a funny story. So, Ken sent over something that needed to be signed. And I have a bunch of digital signatures of mine that I apply to PDFs. Which is my real signature, and it's perfectly legal, as my wife, who's an accountant, would say. She actually worked for a company that did digital signatures- JAMON: You said your wife's an account? TODD: Yeah, my wife Heather is an accountant. I don't know if I mentioned that. But the signature's legal. So, I legally signed the document Ken sent, and Jamon legally signed it. And they're like, "Well, we can't accept this. We can accept a fax." Okay, so a fax. So, I'm going to go back to 1995 where my fax machine is, and I'm gonna fax it over. "So, okay can't do a fax cause you don't live in that decade. But it can be digital, right? But it can't be digital, it can be a picture of my signature, right?" So, you take the PDF you just signed digitally, you print it out, then you take your camera out and you take a picture of the digital signature you put on the PDF. And then you send them the picture, and then that's fine. It's this kind of ... In some cases we had to have things overnighted between the three of us to sign things. In some cases, we had to go in to the local Chase branch or Bank of America branch or wherever and sign it. And none of this is required by law, at all by the way- JAMON: It's just their corporate policies. TODD: They probably have pneumatic tubes in their offices where they send things to each other. It's crazy. I literally took a picture of ... I made it quite obvious I took a picture of it, too, just to be a jerk. JAMON: So, another aspect of finances is budgeting. So, one of the things I did was I ran a budget with my business, was very happy to hand it off to Ken once we merged. That was one of my favorite parts in the merger. But it was really, really important. So, I did it on just a straight up cash basis. So, money would come in, and I would use a program called youneedabudget.com to enter these transactions, whether they were in-flow or out-flow. And then they have this zero-based budgeting system that lets you allocate money for this and that. It's really good because then you know if you had a couple hundred thousand dollars in the bank, and you needed a certain amount of money for payroll, or you needed a certain amount of money to pay your SaaS products, like your GitHub bill, things like that, you know that you had the money or not in the bank. And it gave you really kind of granular data there. It's not quite the same as using QuickBooks. QuickBooks has a useless budgeting feature. I've looked at it. It's just not ... It's sort of like, "Hey, let's plan out the next year." Which you hardly even know what the next month is gonna be like. But having some sort of zero-based budgeting system is quite useful, I think, especially at first. KEN: Can you explain what zero-based means? JAMON: So, essentially, a zero-based budget is where you start with the amount of money that you have, generally, in the bank, and you take that money and you start moving down the line of categories, allocating bits and pieces, subtracting it from that total until you get to zero. So, such and such for payroll, and such and such for your credit card payment, and such and such for your SaaS products. And maybe you need some for team dinners and travel. And you're just moving down. And eventually, the money runs out, right? You hit zero. Or you run out of categories, and you're like, "Okay, I've got money left over and I'm gonna put this into a kind of slush fund or something that just kind of like keeps it for a rainy day." TODD: Isn't slush funds illegal? We should probably just use a different term. JAMON: Okay, maybe I used the wrong word there. Did I use the wrong word? Sorry. A rainy day fund. TODD: Ken would know. JAMON: An emergency fund. And then eventually, you could even bring that money home if you're the owner. But that's what zero-based is. You always get to zero, and you don't go any further than zero because there's no more money. If you don't get to zero, then that means there's money just kind of hanging out not- KEN: Yeah. So, the amount of cash you have determines how far into the future you can budget, basically. JAMON: Exactly. Yes, that's right. So, when you're starting up, it's really important because you don't actually know what kind of expenses are gonna be coming in. You just can't really predict that. So, doing budgeting gives you that insight into where is your money going. You have to allocate for it, and then you enter it into the system. Once you've got a pretty good rhythm going, it's less necessary because you know where the money's going and you can keep an eye on sort of more macro numbers that will give you ideas of health. I would definitely recommend it for probably the first ... I would say, probably the first three years. KEN: And to be clear, it's not a substitute for real books. But I did find it very helpful in just thinking about how money moves around. JAMON: It's also a little bit inadequate in that it is cash basis. And while cash flow is king, and we need to talk about that, Ken, there's also accounts receivable and accounts payable that will affect the money going in and out. TODD: Yeah, there's something called cash basis accounting. KEN: Yeah. Talk about it just a little bit, which is if you're starting up a business you should be cash basis. Like almost full stop, unless you're doing a hardware startup, right? If you're doing something which has a ton of physical inventory, then you might not want to, but frankly if that's true, I mean you need to be talking to a professional, already. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: The other one's called accrual basis. KEN: Accrual, yeah. So, cash basically is very simple. It's like money coming in, money going out. Period. TODD: It's what you would do at home. KEN: Exactly. It's what you would do at home. It's what you probably think accounting is already like. Accrual is like as soon as we have agreed to pay something, then it immediately goes out- JAMON: And as soon as someone agrees to pay us, then it immediately comes in. KEN: Fancy ways of accounting for inventory, and I personally don't actually understand it very well, so that's about all I can say about it. JAMON: It's useful because it gives a more accurate model of where your business actually is, versus cash which can lag or be ahead of itself. But cash is so much simpler that it's definitely worth doing for a while. TODD: Not to turn this podcast into a company meeting, but Heather actually said we probably should consider going to accrual. KEN: Yeah, well we're large enough now that- JAMON: Wait, Todd. How would Heather know to do that? TODD: Oh, Heather, my wife, she's actually an accountant. JAMON: Oh, okay. Okay. That's helpful. KEN: She's been helping us with our books lately. Anyway. So- TODD: Joke never gets old. Never gets old. JAMON: We gotta liven this up somehow. I mean, it's about accounting and lawyers. TODD: And she's gonna listen to this podcast and today's our anniversary, so this is a special "I love you" to my wife. JAMON: Oh, yeah. Well, happy anniversary Todd and Heather, the accountant. TODD: Twelve years. KEN: Of accounting. TODD: Of marriage. KEN: Oh, I see. Okay. I know this has been a very dry podcast, and I apologize but I tell you what. If you guys are thinking about doing this, if maybe you're already doing this and you're feeling the pain already, this stuff is absolutely vitally important- JAMON: It really is. KEN: ... to what you're taking on. JAMON: If you have a solid basis, if you've got some professionals working with you, it gives you so much more confidence and the ability to sleep at night if you know where things stand and what you need to do. KEN: Yeah. TODD: And here's the truth. Many of you are just gonna ignore us. Cause I heard this, too. KEN: Yeah, I know what you mean. JAMON: I did, too. TODD: It's like, "Okay, yeah. Sure. That sounds like the right thing to do. I should do that, but I'm not going to because ... " for whatever reason. And then you learn and suffer like we have, and you eventually do a podcast where you tell others about it, and they ignore you. KEN: You whistle into the wind. TODD: And the perpetual cycle of business stupidity continues. KEN: So, I'm gonna talk about cash flow last. JAMON: Oh yeah, please. TODD: Make it impassioned, Ken. We want some fire here. KEN: So, I remember my very first job that the controller ... So, the controller is sort of the chief internal accountant. Not the CFO, but the kind of hands on- JAMON: Sometimes it's called the comptroller for some reason. KEN: I think that's a British thing. JAMON: That's a British thing? TODD: In government call them comptrollers. KEN: So, they're the ones who would be doing this at a typical company. So, I remember he had a little sign on his desk that said, "Happiness is positive cash flow." And I remember a client saying, "Cash is king." And I remember hearing these things, but I didn't have anywhere to file them. I didn't understand what that meant, right? And I really understand it now. I really understand it now. Where it's basically, cash flow, it's very simple. It's literally the flow of actual money in and out of your business. So, the money you pay out to payroll, the money that your clients actually pay you, not that they have on contract, but they have actually paid you. And what we found is what you think of a business is trying to do is create a profit. And that is true in the long-term. What you want to do is create the largest profit you can. However, to get there you have to keep operating as an entity. And the lifeblood of a company is cash. The lifeblood of that company is that cash, it's the food. So, if you don't get the food in time, it doesn't matter how much you were gonna get. If you run out of money and don't make payroll, something like that, that company will cease. JAMON: I think that's actually a good analogy. If you're playing Minecraft or any other game where you have a health or a hunger bar, and if you're planting fields and fields of wheat and you're waiting for it grow and you wanna go harvest it but you die of hunger before you get there, that's a problem. That's a cash flow problem. It's the ability for you to pay your bills on a day to day basis. So, yes, cash is extremely king. KEN: Well, yeah, imagine your business is collecting Beanie Babies. And you're like, "I'm gonna buy a bunch of Beanie Babies and I'm gonna wait for them to become valuable." That's not a business. Maybe it's an investment, maybe, right? But because you don't have this cycle of things coming in on a routine basis that lets you continue to operate, you just spend a bunch of money and then you wait 20 years. Right? So, it may be profitable in the long run, but it's not really business. JAMON: So, Ken, how does that look in practical terms for Infinite Red? How do you apply that principal of cash is king? KEN: So, yeah, for example, I was very resistant for a long time to take credit cards. This is another thing you learn once you're on the business, you're like, "Holy crap, the credit cards, they take a lot of money out." JAMON: Yeah they do. TODD: Three percent. KEN: Three percent. TODD: Which is a lot on $100,000. KEN: Yeah, exactly. On a $100,000 project, that's actually a lot of money. I think I'm a little more nuanced about it now, because what they do is they make it easier to pay. They make it easier for someone mid-level in a company to pay. They reduce that friction, and it means you get paid sooner. Getting paid a month early is worth actual- TODD: Money. KEN: It's actual money to you. It is worthwhile getting paid early. And so, we're a little bit more lax about how we accept that. TODD: Why is that, Ken? Why is it when you get paid sometimes more important than any profit you made from that money? KEN: Well, for us our biggest expense is payroll. And that happens twice a month no matter what, right? And so, having that money in hand now- TODD: Knock on wood. KEN: That's right. Having that money in hand now makes a real tangible difference. It's not that you don't wanna pay attention to profit at all. It's like there is this ... I remember back in the original dot com boom, there was a Saturday Night Live spoof where they were like, this business was like, "We make change." Right? They're like, "We make all kinds of change. How do we make up for it? Volume." You can, in fact, cash flow yourself into the dirt if you're not paying attention. JAMON: It is interesting to see in situations where we're really monitoring our cash flow very closely, and we do some things that we know maybe they're not going to pay us for a few months and you're maybe struggling through. And then boom, it does come through. And you see that profit actually hit the books, and that is actually a cool feeling, as well. So, you do need to obviously pay attention to your profitability- TODD: Profit matters long-term. Cash flow matters to stay in business. JAMON: That's right. TODD: Cash flow's also power. And this is something that not everyone groks, to be honest. There's a reason that congresspeople like their job. And it's not because they may not personally be getting rich, and the reason they want to get on committees, especially the finance committee and that kind of stuff, is because what really gives you power is not wealth. Cause wealth sitting in a bank account gives no power, cause you're not transferring it. But control of cash flow gives you power. Now, in the case of Congress, congresspeople or senators, most of that's just evil. But in the case of your business, what I call power isn't necessarily a negative thing. Power means you can buy services. Power means you can give that bonus to your employees and that sort of thing. And really how much cash flow you have flowing through is how much you can do, more so than the profit. JAMON: And this is one of the things that if we can point to anything that is sort of a mission for Infinite Red, a lot of it, I think, centers around enabling remote work and the lifestyle that we all want from Infinite Red. And having the ability to pay for that and enable that through our cash flow is what you're talking about, Todd. TODD: Yeah. So, a lot of lawyers and accountants, to be honest, suck. And that's true of all professions, whether it's doctors, programmers, or whatever. So, I know it's not like you can just Google it and find a good one of them a price that you can afford. So, I know we went through a variety of stuff, a variety of people and/or companies, and I was just curious your experience in how you find a good lawyer, a good bookkeeper, a good accountant. That sort of thing. JAMON: I needed an attorney ... I forget when it was. It was during the ClearSight days. And an employee that worked for me at the time, he was my creative director, Mike [Wozezak 00:37:49], really great guy, he knew an attorney that specialized in creative agencies. And I went and met with him, and talked with him, and I really liked him. He was a former CPA, so he knew kind of the nuts and bolts of accounting, which was helpful. And he also specialized in companies like mine. I kind of brought him along to Infinite Red afterward, and we sort of just adopted him as our corporate attorney. And that was really helpful. So, it was a word of mouth thing, for sure. I think one piece of advice that I would give to people is treat it sorta like you would a doctor. It's okay to go someone, have them do something, see if you like the way they operate, and move onto the next one. If you have to do 10 different lawyers before you find one, do it. Don't settle. Do not settle for a bad one. Keep moving until you find a good one, because I can tell you, I think our lawyer is so great that he is absolutely worth every penny that we pay him. And he's helped save us from bad situations, he's helped us get out of some scrapes, and it's totally been worth it. So, definitely treat it more like you would a doctor. TODD: His name is Josh, and he is wonderful. I've had other lawyers at other companies and I wish I had Josh back then. KEN: Do some networking. Talk to other people in similar positions to you. See if they have someone they can recommend. I would also say, for both, having someone who is always willing to take the time to actually explain to you what they're doing in language that you can understand. That is vital. If you feel like you're being snowed, if you feel like you don't understand what's going on, keep looking. JAMON: Yes. And there are professionals that will do that. KEN: They do exist. They're doing a very important service for you, you want someone that you can trust implicitly, they're gonna be interested in earning that trust. JAMON: There are also specialists. So, we had looked into some legal implications surrounding some blockchain work that we were doing. And we talked to Josh, and he said, "I can't provide the insight that you're looking for. This isn't something that I have training on." And so, I did find another attorney. We didn't end up using her, because we went another direction with the service we were looking at. But she was a former FCC attorney who really understood the blockchain legal ramifications. That was helpful. KEN: Once you start getting into specialized stuff it's a little different. But that's where having that primary counsel- JAMON: Exactly. KEN: ... is very helpful, because they can help translate. JAMON: Now one of the things that attorneys do is they ... A good attorney will do, is they will inform you of the risks, but they will also let you make the decision. They won't try to control the process. So, one of the things that Josh will do is say, "There is a risk. I think it's a fairly small one, but here's the risk that I see. And if you feel that it's worth it from a business standpoint, then go ahead and pull the trigger." But he'll let you make the decision, and he'll give you the information to do that. KEN: Yeah. And a not as good lawyer, will be like, "Oh, no, no. Don't do this because there's this horrible risk." Right? Guess what. Every single deal you do has risk. Every single one. And the truth of the matter is, people will sue you, not usually because they have a case, but because they're pissed, right? A lawyer who understands the limits of the legal process is also really important. TODD: I'd like to add that some previous companies that didn't have a Josh or a good lawyer, and a couple things. And it's true of accountants, by the way. Both are true in what I'm gonna say here. So, Ken said the worst ones are ones that think everything you're doing is horrible and you shouldn't do it. I mean, they only care about risk reduction. Of course, you can reduce your risk by simply not being in business. That is horrible, for sure. But there's another one that I think is even worse. One that's doing that on their side, and they won't even tell you to begin with. So, anything that's risky that they don't wanna ... I mean, they basically just cover their ass at all times, they don't tell you anything. They only do what you tell them to do. I'm not sure how you're supposed to know what to tell them to do because you're not a lawyer, you're not an accountant. I deal with that a lot. They're just an assistant, they just do what you tell them. Well, I don't ... If I could do that, I wouldn't need you. And it's actually something that ... With our clients, we're really trying not to do. We don't expect our clients to know anything. That's our job, to guide them through, give them good, coherent options. Tell them the risk and reward of each option, and let them choose. JAMON: Exactly. TODD: That's our job as professionals, and sadly it's kind of rare, unfortunately. JAMON: Yeah. I'm glad we're taking on this topic. Obviously, it is sort of more of a dry topic, but we can only go so far with the series. And this is our last episode of the series. TODD: Of this first season. JAMON: The first season of the series. We are gonna do more seasons. TODD: Unless you're in the UK, and then in which case it is the first series. They call a season a series. JAMON: Oh, funny. TODD: A little factoid. JAMON: Yeah, I'm sure that our UK listeners will appreciate that. TODD: That sounded snarky. We have people in the UK who love us. JAMON: Do we? Awesome? TODD: Why you so mean, Jamon? JAMON: I didn't mean it to sound snarky. TODD: That's why my wife, who's an accountant, doesn't like you. No, she loves you. JAMON: I like Heather. Even if she is an accountant. No, it is good. It's ... This is what ... Well, we took on two topics at once and we were able to kind of lump them in, but it's something that everybody who's starting a business ... And I know, cause we get feedback that there are some people who are listening to our podcast and using some of our advice as a guide as they start their businesses, this is something they need to pay attention to. And when I started my business, it took me many years to get a lawyer and many years to get a good accountant. I did have a bookkeeper, or financial assistant, I guess, for some of those years because once I started payroll, I started getting out of my depth. I had no idea how to do that. And she was great, I could ask her for advice. She was actually trained as an accountant, as a CPA, actually. But she was, at the time, sort of semi-retired and just kind of doing her thing. Now, with Infinite Red, I feel like we have a really great attorney. We have good accountants. We're still working on figuring everything out, but having Heather help us has been really helpful, as well. It's nice to have professionals that know what they're doing. TODD: Thanks so much. Maybe a little dry, but I think super interesting to people out there, especially when you're starting. I've actually found- KEN: Bookmark this, like when you're actually starting this, bookmark and go listen to it again. JAMON: Yeah, it's a good reference. KEN: If your eyes glazed over, I totally understand, but trust me. TODD: I actually found it pretty interesting. I'm surprised how that flew by. And a podcast that flies by when you're recording it, it usually comes out pretty good. So, I would like Jamon in the close to explain what our plans are for this podcast going forward, since this is the last episode of this series/season. JAMON: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm really pleased with how season/series one went. And it was a ton of fun to do with you, Todd, Ken, Chris. We do plan to do more. We probably won't take a really long break. I'm hoping to maybe take a month, or at the most two, and then hit another season. This season we really wanted to kind of get our voice out there as a founder team. So, Todd, Ken and myself, as the founders of Infinite Red, we wanted to talk from our perspective on building Infinite Red. But as Todd mentioned, I think in one of the early episodes, it wasn't just us that built Infinite Red. It was definitely a team effort. It was, in a lot of ways, our vision, but there's so much impact that our team has on what Infinite Red is. So, for season two, the intention is to bring in key team members, and have them sit around the round table, so to speak, with us. They're not gonna be interviewed. We're not gonna be talking at them. They're gonna be just involved in the conversation as we go forward. And we'll be talking about more things that are, I think, a little more specific, a little more even maybe situational, or things like that. I think it'll be interesting, from a standpoint of getting to know some of our team members. They're really great. We- TODD: They are, they're awesome. JAMON: They're so awesome, and I'm really excited to give the world a glimpse into who else is here at Infinite Red. But it will probably be one, maybe two guests on, and just co-hosting with us. They're not going to be an interviewee. I also wanna say thank you to everybody who has listened and promoted our podcast, who submitted questions to us. It's an incredible honor to actually to be in your podcast rotation. We don't take that for granted. I know there are a ton of really good podcasts out there. I had one person, actually, I went to lunch with Bruce Williams, a really great guy here in Portland. And he said, "Jamon, there a lot of good podcasts out there, but I think one of the things about Building Infinite Red is that you are doing an important podcast. The message needs to get out there about our remote work and the way that we do work." Which was a huge compliment. Bruce isn't the type to just hand out compliments lightly. He's a great guy. We take it seriously. This isn't something that we're just doing as a marketing stunt, or anything like that. We really do believe in the message that we're putting out there. So, thank you all for listening. TODD: Yes, thank you.

In this episode of Building Infinite Red, we are talking about clients and some of the assumptions that often need to be challenged when creating software. Throughout the episode, Todd, Ken, and Jamon touch on the importance of knowing who your audience is, what they value, and how your ideas will meet their needs. Show Links Dropzones App Release by Mark Rickert A Dark Room by Amir Rajan Uncommon Sense by Derek Sivers Episode Transcript CHRIS MARTIN: Today we are talking about clients. It's an important topic and one that pretty much every business owner inevitably gets asked a variety of questions. The question that we could start with is: what's your favorite moment in working with clients? JAMON HOLMGREN: You would think it would be when you launch their app or their site, or something like that, but I often find that actually to be a little bit anti-climactic 'cause there's so much going on. There's usually already plans in place for a version 1.1. It's not usually like everybody gather around the big green button and then the founder pushes the button, and it goes live. Although a little side note, Mark Rickert, who is one of our developers has released an app to the app store while in free fall during a skydive. That is true. We can link to it and there's a YouTube video of it. But that's not usually how it works. KEN MILLER: It wasn't a client app I don't think. I think it was one of his apps, but still. JAMON: That was a pretty cool way to do it. But no, you would think that would be the most exciting time. The exciting time is usually during design, for me, because I feel like you start getting a lot of enthusiasm, the energy. A lot of those things start coming out during the design process. And when we get a chance to use our design process—some clients will come to us with something already designed, others will come to us who need design. When they're going through the design process, it's really exciting, you can see a lot of the possibilities. The development side of things is also fun, but a little slower moving. TODD: I agree with Jamon on the design side. Once we get through the product development and start getting into design, probably past the wireframing and into some more concrete examples, it's pretty fun to see the client get really excited. Especially if it's a situation where they show people who are interested in their product, or their stakeholders and investors, or whomever, and they had a good reaction to it. I would add the second most fun time with clients is once there is a beta or an alpha available for their beta testers. And again, they send it to them and they use words like "blown away," or something like, that's awesome. I'm not gonna lie and say, that's always what happens, but those two times I think are the most fun to me. CHRIS: One of the things that Jamon wrote in Slack that was interesting is: what are some common assumptions that clients bring to the process that have to be corrected? TODD: I don't know if there's anything that's common or consistent across clients. There are some things that come up. I would say, depending on the experience level of the client with software product development, we may have a little to a lot of teaching to do. And that's one of the things we like to do is teach. I find it particularly fun when our start-up clients are newer, they're not on their series B or something. Because there is a lot of moments that you can help them and give them kind of golden information. Both from our personal experience running start-ups, but also we work with a lot of start-ups. So we've been through this before. There are some misconceptions about software. Not necessarily from our clients, but from people who weren't a good fit for us. For example, it's very common in the world at large, to believe software is orders of magnitude cheaper than it really is. People also get very used to the quality that they see in apps like Facebook or Gmail, or these kind of things. And they think they can spend less than a car to get those things. When you're in our industry of course, that doesn't seem super logical, but from their perspective it makes sense. An app costs nothing, or $1.99. JAMON: Right. TODD: Or $4.99, so of course something like that seems cheap. What they don't know, of course, is Facebook has tens of thousands of employees. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: And even a smaller app, let's not chose Facebook, which is huge. But like Instagram, for example. And not what it is now, but what it originally was, probably cost half a million to make. JAMON: Yeah, I think I saw that they put $250,000 into their MVP originally. And it's a very simple app when you look at it, compared to a lot of apps out there. I think that's definitely something that, as Todd said, it's not necessarily the clients who end up being good fits for us. But usually we get calls from everybody, all kinds of people. KEN: Well, even those prices are reflective of just how far software has come in terms of developer productivity. JAMON: Right. KEN: Because half a million dollars doesn't even get you a house in the Bay area. And the people building your house, most of them are being paid 20, 30, 40 dollars an hour and not $200 an hour, or $100 an hour. The Bay area is full of software engineers being paid $150,000 a year and up, many that are way higher than that. And you can still build software for half a million dollars, which is actually is pretty impressive when you think about that in terms of it's inputs. JAMON: Another interesting thing that the clients don't necessarily realize when they come to us is the impact that the design process can have on their product. Usually you're thinking of design as making it look pretty, making it look nice. But there's a whole lot more that goes into that. The visual design aspect of design is usually, maybe, the last 30%, something like that. It's not the bulk of the design work. But there's a lot of value that can be added there. You can avoid expensive mistakes during design by spending the time upfront to really learn as much as you can about your core customers and the features that are necessary. Because software is expensive, so you wanna build as little of it as possible until you really know the direction that you need to go. TODD: Yeah, and I wanna be clear. You can make, for instance, a mobile app for $100,000 to $200,000. It's not a half a million. But something that's larger could be millions as well. Just wanna make that note on that price there. JAMON: I think another misconception that some clients might have when they come into it, is they don't understand necessarily all of the breadth of things that need to happen to make an app. We've had people come to us and want to build an app, but they don't necessarily realize that they also need a server and they need some sort of cloud connectivity. They might need offline support. They might need access to certain APIs for GPS or whatever. And beyond that, how to get through the app store. And how to get through Google Play. What is a compelling app store listing? What does that look like? You know, what screenshots are important? And one of the most successful apps that I've ever been involved with, which is called A Dark Room by my friend Amir Rajan, he actually only has one screenshot on the app store, and it's a very uninspiring one. But he has millions of downloads. It's just, he hit it right on the head. TODD: You know which store is incredibly hard to get through? IKEA. (laughter) Just saying. KEN: It's true. TODD: We've mentioned before in this podcast, but it's worth repeating, design is not how things look. Design is how things work. And through the very first part of our design process is product discovery. And that's even before how things work. That's what product is you want to make at all. Since we work with a lot of start-ups, we also sometimes coach them, if they need it on coming up with a customer acquisition plan and a revenue plan, which their investors, prospective investors that they pitch to, will definitely ask them about, having pitched to them myself. So design is very important and it's also one of the most difficult things that we mentioned in a previous podcast was getting from zero to one. Product discovery and design really help our clients get from zero to one. JAMON: And they're starting a business, you know, it's not just building an app. They're starting a business, or they're continuing a business that they already have. And there's a lot that goes into building a business for sure. I think that's one of the things that, maybe some friends of mine who might message me and say, "hey Jamon, I've got this app idea, it's a billion dollar idea." (laughter) "Promise not to go off and rip me off. I wanna tell you it." And it's fine, you know, the ideas are a very necessary part of this, they're a spark. They're really important. But the execution side of things involves designing and building the app, which we can do. We're really great at it, we've done it a lot of times. But also, the business side of things. There's no one right answer to how to build a business. You can see that with many different business models. And that's the tough part. Now, it can be very rewarding though, the whole journey and it's been really fun to watch our clients build business models that are sustainable and come back as they grow, as they succeed, they find new opportunities and they come back to us and say, "hey Infinite Red, we need some new features. We need a new app. We need to rebuild the app for maybe a different purpose." Those things are very fun to see. TODD: Ken, you had a great thing about ideas, when people have an idea for a business. You've talked about a lot and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. KEN: Oh, and how they're not usually worth the paper that they're written on. (laughter) TODD: Yes. KEN: Where this came from was that, like back in the days of the dotcom boom, when everybody and their brother had some amazing idea. I would be at a social dinner with somebody and they would be like, they'd whip out an NDA and be like, I wanna talk to you about this idea I have and I need you to sign this NDA. And I'm like, "No. I'm not gonna sign your NDA." Ideas, per se, are not worth very much. Right? A high level idea, per se, is not worth very much. Like my idea's like, "hey, I have an amazing idea. What if you took a car, then you made it fly?" Right? And people will be like, "that's an amazing idea." Now, how are you actually gonna do that? And so it's kinda like, just because I have this amazing idea, "oh what if you made cars fly," doesn't mean that when somebody goes and actually makes cars fly that I have any right to that idea. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). KEN: Right? Because the high level idea by itself, although cool, doesn't actually get you there. It's the millions and millions of other good ideas that follow that, that really make something work. Jamon, do you wanna tell the dating with music, I could tell you wanna tell the dating with music story. JAMON: That's exactly what I was gonna interject. So Derek Sivers, who founded CD Baby, he has a YouTube video, it's very short. We can link to it in the show notes. Essentially it's talking about ideas versus execution. And the general premise is sort of this, that he met with a friend of a friend, and they were having lunch. And this guy had this billion dollar idea. And he says, okay, what's this great idea that you have? And the guy kind of leans over, very intense, and says, dating with music. (laughter) And Derek's like, is there anything else? (laughter) Is this ... He's like, no, dating with music dude. And it was ... he's like, okay, this idea is worth maybe the price of a lunch. Right? Like, the execution of it is the multiplier, you know, you can have a multiplier ... a great idea, not execute it at all, is really not worth much. A bad idea, executed really well is also not worth all that much. But a really good idea executed really well, is a multiplier that becomes your billion dollar idea. I don't think it necessarily tells the whole story, you know, that particular anecdote because there's also timing and other things like that. KEN: Well and that idea isn't even a multiplier idea. That's like a hint at a maybe multiplier idea. Right? JAMON: Yes. TODD: He was just being nice to the guy. KEN: He was being nice, right. So it's kind of like, when I say there's a chain of ideas, the first germ of the idea is the kind of idea that someone might get when high. Kind of like, "hey man, what if it was like dating, but with music. Yeah." (laughter) Right? That's exactly a high person's idea. I would almost bet money that that was a high idea. But anyway. The next thing is like, oh well you get people to put in their music that they like and we match people up. That's starting to be an actual idea. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: Right? That's starting to be like, what's the actual hook. And even that, there's still, like well how does it work? What's the UX? What's the viral engine around that? JAMON: Yeah. KEN: It's not just programming. Like, we're all programmers historically, so we're gonna tend to see all of the stuff that's gonna go behind that. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). KEN: Really, it's the product development of design that, or really, what's important. And a lot of the details that matter, are sometimes the ones that are not obviously to your competitors. TODD: Almost always. KEN: Almost always. So this idea that your super secret idea is gonna make everything work is, frankly, BS. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: You have to keep having those good ideas over and over and over again. Every techy who's been in Silicon Valley, or a similar environment, and around the sorts of people who have these sorts of ideas, every single one has a story of being approached by somebody who's saying, "hey I've got this great idea. I'm gonna get you in on the ground floor with it. But I just need somebody to make it." JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). KEN: And we'll split it 50/50. Young techies fall for this. Very quickly you learn, uh, no. You'd better have a lot more than that for that to be a 50/50 bargain. TODD: I'm not even joking when I say that in San Francisco at least 50% of your Uber drivers will pitch an idea to you on your ride. JAMON: We got pitched in an Uber, us three. We were in an Uber not that long ago and we got pitched on an idea. And I think that it's kind of interesting because the apps that do tend to be more successful that we're involved with, they're often not big ideas. They're good ideas, they're not like huge ideas. They're existing companies that have a need that their customer base has kind of expressed, they can see it's fairly obvious. And they come to us and they say, hey we need really good execution. And that's what we're good at. They've identified the need. Have a lot of the infrastructure already in place. They already know how they're gonna monetize it. They already know how it's gonna impact their business. They just need a really great app. And that's where we really plug in. Now it has been kind of interesting to watch start-ups where they don't have that in place and how they develop that. And where they go with that. It's much more risky. A lot of them do fail. And one of the things that I've heard from some of those clients sometimes is, "Jamon, why aren't you so excited about my idea?" Now I'm not trying not to come across excited, I am excited about their idea. It's just that I've seen so many of these where there's certain other parts of the business that they lack. From my standpoint, if I was in the business of picking winners and losers, I'd probably be doing my own start-up, right? But, honestly, there's a lot of moving parts. There's a lot of variables. And not all of them are in your control. So I think it's been really cool to see the ones that do succeed. See how they piece it all together. I have a lot of respect for them, it's a difficult thing, but it's very rewarding. And then, of course, the companies that come in, like, we just started a project recently, this week actually I think. And they are an established company, they have a very big user base. A lot of people have heard of them, but they need a much better app. And they need a better app experience. And that's really where you see the clients that really shine. KEN: There may be a few people listening who are kind of mentally going like, "hmm, is that me?" What I would say is, if you think it's you, it might be. (laughter) If you wanna know, like I wanna do this thing. And I don't program and I'm not a designer, like, I don't know how to make these things and I don't really wanna be that person. If the idea isn't what's important, then what is important? What do I bring to the table that is gonna help me succeed and help a company like Infinite Red, or even just an individual programmer who I happen to find? What am I bringing to the table that will help beyond the big idea? And there's really two things. And they're big ones. And you need at least one. And preferably two. And one is, access to capital. Not just building this, not just paying us to build this. But all the marketing and everything else. Right? You're gonna need money. And you're not gonna want to be in a position where when you run out, it just dies. You need to have a plan for that. That's number one. Number two, is access to audience. If you have one of those, in good form, then you can usually get the other one. Having both is ideal. But those are the two things, those are the things that the makers that you're coming to work with, don't necessarily have. And so, if you wanna know what you can be busting your hump to be doing right now, it's getting those things. And then, if you have those and you come to somebody with your big idea and you want them to turn it into something real, you actually have something to offer. JAMON: One of the things that I think Ken and Todd bring to this conversation that I don't necessarily bring to the conversation is I haven't been on the other side. I've been a consultant for a very long time, so I see our side of it. But both Ken and Todd have worked for start-ups, probably who have used consultants. And seen the ones that have succeeded. Ken you worked at Yammer and there was an acquisition that Microsoft made there. And so it was a successful exit. And then of course there are some other start-ups that you and Todd have worked at that failed. That's something that I, maybe, don't necessarily bring that perspective to. But the consultant's side of it for sure, I see all kinds. I see all kinds of start-ups that rise and fall. TODD: I hope no one takes this as a reason not to try, for sure. I would recommend to focus on your customer acquisition strategy and your revenue strategy. You have to remember Zappos when it came out, and if you're not familiar with Zappos, it was a large company and eventually hired by Amazon, and they sell shoes. KEN: Acquired, not hired. TODD: Sorry, acquired, not hired. They sell shoes, which is probably the second oldest profession in the world. (laughter) So, obviously not a new idea. Hey, I have an idea, I'm gonna sell shoes. And you're like, horse shoes? Space shoes? No, shoes, like you put on your feet. But they had some innovation ideas inside there. Mainly extreme customer sport, and the big one was, buy five pair of shoes, send back four. Good ideas, but once again, there's a series of little ideas, like how do we allow them to buy five pairs of shoes and send back four and still make money? There's a hundred and fifty ideas in there, maybe a thousand ideas in there that matter. So it's hard to be an A-list actor, right? But if no one tried, we'd have none. So you can succeed. We get a lot of clients and sometimes their very obvious that they'll see just because they have a lot of experience or they just really understand. But we have people who don't know what they don't know. And don't know what they know yet, and that's fine too. Those people may succeed also. KEN: The number one problem that we see is under capitalization. Over capitalization can be a problem too, incidentally. If you raise too much money all at once then it can lead you to be too profligate. I've definitely seen that at start-ups. JAMON: It's way harder to say no. KEN: Yeah, that's a problem with venture capital backed companies that have just seen a bunch of interest all at once and then they have issues with that. But, under capitalization is definitely a much bigger problem because it means that every single decision you make, you're terrified. TODD: If your problem is over capitalization, please send an email to hello@infinite.red. KEN: We can help you with that problem. TODD: Today's episode is brought to you by, too much money. KEN: I'm actually being serious. (laughter) I mean, we're joking. But I'm also serious. Like, we actually know how to make your money go farther. JAMON: Yeah, and I agree with that. And we can also help with saying no. I think that that's actually one of the things that's probably surprising about working with us, is often we are pushing for not adding features. TODD: This is sounding like a commercial this time. KEN: Yeah, I'm sorry, but we're not the only ones. I'm just saying that experienced people will tell you no. And you need that if you've got a lot of money. JAMON: I think that's an important port, you look at some consultants and their not necessarily pulling in that direction, but we want people to succeed 'cause obviously that looks good on a portfolio. It's a benefit to us. One of the things we've always said, and we tell customers this, if we finish your project early, and don't spend all of your money, I'm sure you're gonna come up with more ideas. You know? It's not like we're gonna miss out. It's never been the case. If we finish a project early, the founders aren't just pocketing the rest of the money and going home. What they're gonna do is say, what about 1.1, let's get on the schedule. Let's move. There's always something else. 'Cause during the process of building an app you learn so much. And there's always more ideas. KEN: I've never seen a software project where at the end people were like, phew, I'm sure glad that everything that we could possibly think of was in that. (laughter) Like, that has never ever, ever, happened. TODD: You never know. There was that app where you just said "Yo" to people. Yo. JAMON: Yeah, didn't they raise a whole bunch of money to add more stuff? KEN: And what happened to that app? TODD: I don't wanna rant about VC. Some VC's ... not all. Some are great. Another thing, going back to your original question Chris, which we've been talking a lot about, is, common things that customers or clients may not understand. Another one is just the pure complexity of software. It's hard to understand because it's not in the real world. You can't hold it. In your house, if you ever owned a house and had work done on the house, you'll know that doing something in your living room is relatively cheap. Doing something in your bathroom is extremely expensive. Doing something in your kitchen is extremely expensive. The reason why a tiny room like the bathroom is so much more expensive than a huge room, say like, your living room. Is because the bathroom has tons of different contraptions in it. Lots of different moving parts. Lots of different things can go wrong, from your sinks to your plumbing, fans, lighting, that kind of stuff. So the number of pieces matters a lot to cost. Because software is virtual and because we can fairly easily throw on pieces. Software tends to be an order of magnitude, or more, complex than any other physical machine. A bathroom, even a car engine, is less complex than software is. KEN: It's compensated for somewhat by the fact that our tools are also more powerful. TODD: Yes. KEN: I mean, there's countervailing things there, but your point about the complexity is right. If you run out of lot when you're building a house, then your contractor says, hey we can't build there, your lot ends there. There's no such constraints for software and that makes it easy for things to get kind of hairy. TODD: If you completely disregard our part in the complexity, meaning we have to build all the moving pieces and test them and make sure that they coordinate together. Even disregarding that, sometimes people are shocked at how much they have to think about, and they're not building it all. If you just said, I wanna login screen, for example. Every app has that. That's simple. Right? The number of questions that you could be asked by someone like us, to someone who's less experienced will be shocking. And they won't have the answers to it. And each one could be thought of. Now of course we always give people common things that they should do, or whatever. But if you were to really think through the whole thing, just that one screen is way more complex than anyone imagines. JAMON: Recognizing our experience, the fact that we've done hundreds of apps and encountered so many different scenarios, I think is important for working with a company like ours. I think back, in prior years, there have been some projects that haven't gone as well. And one of the common traits of those projects is that the person I'm working with, they feel like they kind of know it all, because they do have a pretty big picture of it, and they want to put their vision down into software. It often comes with blind spots of, what are you missing here? So having a high degree of trust and communication between the two parties is one of the hallmarks of a successful project. We certainly respect what the founders bring because they have the vision, a lot of the times they have a much closer relationship with their potential users than we do. KEN: Absolutely. JAMON: We're not trying to impose our view of what that might be. But we can often bring things, like Todd was saying about the login screen. Like, you didn't think of this aspect like what happens if you forget your password, or if you don't have access to your email or something. TODD: Or you're on a plane, or Facebook changed the rules and half the users can't login. That kind of stuff. JAMON: Exactly. TODD: Another thing too, is we sometimes experience this when we get designs outside of our company. Now, a lot of designers are great, but they're never have been trained in, or have experience in software design. Our designers are classically trained designers. They can do all the normal things people think of designs, but they chose to specialize in software and website design. So, sometimes when we get an outside design, we never used to do this, but we kind of now require it. The bare minimum is we'll do a half week of design review. And we did one recently. And from a cursory look at their design, it looked like they had everything. Looked good, seemed to make sense. The design looked fine. But after a half week of a couple of our designers reviewing it, they went through in great detail and produced a map of the whole app and how everything interacts with each other. And the flows and the different actors, different type of users. That kind of stuff. JAMON: There were dozens of screens, right Todd? Like dozens. TODD: There were a lot of screens, and probably half of them weren't in the original design at all. JAMON: It was striking 'cause you could see the outline of the screen, it was empty and there's a title of whatever that screen was supposed to be. TODD: So that's an example of, even at the design part, where you have to factor in all these different scenarios that you may not have thought about. And how the user would experience it if those scenarios happen. And also make a business decision whether or not you're gonna address some of those scenarios. Sometimes you don't because it's a very small minority of your users, edge case as we call it. And it's just not worth ... the ROI and something like that would be poor. So that's something too, where it's just half the app is really missing. JAMON: And that's where, I think having that high degree of trust is really important because then our spidery senses are saying, hey, there's something missing here. Let's spend the time up front, I know you wanna get started right now, but let's spend the time up front to map this out and see if everything is here. CHRIS: I'm actually curious when someone comes to you with an idea, how do you know when to start challenging the idea? And when to write the idea off? KEN: I wouldn't say that there's very many ideas that we would write off. Because lord knows if we knew which ideas were going to succeed in this business, we would be billionaires already. And frankly, the people who are billionaires don't even necessarily know. There is a healthy degree of luck in terms of like, who ends up on which gravy train. But, that said, there's always gonna be a variety of factors that go into whether something is successful. Some of them are universal. And some of them are highly specific. And it's a little bit of a judgment call on which is which, however. We think that things like software quality and good UX, these sorts of things, are basically universal. Like that humans are humans. In those regards, we are going to push for what we think is right. When it comes to the intimate understanding of the customer, the end customer, right, the people that these start-ups are trying to attract. That's where we defer to them. We're always looking for clients who clearly have that intimate understanding of their customer. And this sort of leads into another point, which is that, someone on their team, whether it's the founder, if they're the only ones. Or someone on their team, had better really have that intimate knowledge. And they're gonna have a full time job working with us. Basically. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: Right? And that's also something that I think people have not understood. It's kinda like, hey, here you go make the software and I will dip in periodically. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: Uh-uh (negative). No. Yeah, you gotta be really committed because you're the one who really understands that like, so we're gonna be working with you to go after this. And we need you, obviously. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: Not just to write the checks, but also to tell us who this person is and what they're really gonna need. And sometimes our idea of a universal solution won't work for something specific. But that tension is really important. We're always fighting for those sort of universal values, but we're also listening to hear what specific values are and the ways that they might override universal value. TODD: Yeah, and there's not one right answer and one right design to solve any particular problem. I would pile on with Ken, the people coming to us, the founders or the department heads or whomever they are, coming to us. They really wanna understand the end user and be able to articulate that to us. And over time we learn them too. And some industries have very strong cultures that you have to be within, and if you don't speak that cultural language it instantly turns off those people. It's not just culture, but for example, we did a project for a company called PRO-TREAD, which does training for truckers. I don't know if they're the largest, but if they're not, they're probably closest to the largest in the country. And this traditionally was done if you had a trucking company, you would set up computers in the corner and then when that driver was by their home base, they would sit at that boring computer and do the forced training that they're required to do by law. Not fun. No one wants to do it. The people at the company don't wanna pay for it. Truck drivers don't wanna do it. Of course it does increase safety and stuff, so it's important to do, but it's just human nature not wanna do something that's, you know. JAMON: And I believe, Todd, that PRO-TREAD was one of the first to even computerize it. Before that is was paper tests and in classrooms. So they were kind of moving that direction already. Now this was another iteration of their platform. TODD: Correct. And this is a great example of an idea because it's simple, everyone understands it and it's obvious. Truck drivers spend a lot of time in the sleeper cabs of their trucks. At truck stops and whatnot on the side of the road and stuff. So, obviously making the training mobile was important because the training materials being on a tablet or an iPad was important. Making it not so painful for the person, so that it's not ... If you're the manager telling the drivers that they have to take this testing, getting 50% less push back because it's not as painful is a big deal to you. And also, they do need to not just get through the training material, they do need to understand it and internalize it. It actually does help, even though no one wants to do it. So the basic requirements was, it has to be mobile, it has to work inside of a sleeper cab on the side of I-80. And it still needs to maintain their already high level of guaranteeing that people actually pick up the information, and they had a variety of ways to make sure that happened. And also, be more engaging and not as painful. That was the directive to our designers. JAMON: I believe that when they first came to us they sort of envisioned the app looking basically like their web version and no real changes other than that. And we talked to them, this was a situation where we had a great rapport with the owner of PRO-TREAD and we're able to talk with him and explain where design could really add a lot of value to a touch interface. TODD: Yeah, so we actually did re-design it, not just to make it more mobile appropriate, let's say. But to really push those goals they had. Now, designers and us and them now understood the goals. I just stated them. Fairly straight forward, the goals. However, we can take those goals and we can design to those goals for sure, but we probably don't know truck drivers as well as our client PRO-TREAD does. So them having been in this industry for a very long time, really understood the nuances that would make meeting these goals through design possible. Having them really understand their users, having us really understand how to solve problems. Us having the problems be both simple, straightforward and well defined, that was a successful project and although maybe not as exciting as Uber for gerbils. Because gerbils have to get around too, and no one likes to walk. JAMON: Well gerbils do, actually, don't they? TODD: They kind of do, yeah. And they like tubes. So maybe be like Elon Musk's ... JAMON: Hyper loop. TODD: The hyper loop for gerbils. JAMON: For gerbils. TODD: Yeah, so that's a very exciting, so if we had a client came and said we want a hyper loop for gerbils and we respond, "of course. Who doesn't?" But it's just funny, but teaching truck drivers important lessons is more fulfilling when you know, when it rolls out, there's gonna be tons of men and women out there on the road having a slightly less painful day because of something worked on. And probably saving some lives. It's not as sexy, but it is very satisfying in my opinion. JAMON: Yeah, I totally agree. I actually have five uncles who are truck drivers. Very strong truck driving kind of familial influence. And maybe one or two of them might actually listen to my podcast here. So, hi uncles. (laughter) But what I think is kind of cool about this is I do know truck drivers. I didn't get a chance to work on that project myself, but there's totally a personal connection there. I understand what they go through and the types of things that they care about. TODD: I only have one brother and he owns a shipping company and he has lots of truck drivers, so I'm going to trump your four uncles. (laughter) JAMON: Let's have them fight. They're all six foot four. TODD: Although in the past he did drive, so, but anyways. Yeah. Ken, how about you buddy? JAMON: Any truck drivers there at Harvard? TODD: Aww, pick on the Harvard kid. KEN: No, I don't know any truck drivers. (laughter) You got me. TODD: Today, brought to you buy Captain Obvious. You can cut that, that was a bad joke.

A podcast from Russell and Todd in a private plane. On this special private plane episode Russell and Clickfunnels co-founder, Todd Dickerson, rant about troubles they’ve had with different platforms, most recently iTunes. Here are some of the interesting things you will hear on this episode: Find out why Russell is not longer getting subscribers for his podcast, and how all efforts to fix the problem have been fruitless. Hear Todd tell a story about a friend of his that basically lost his business when Amazon D-listed his product. Find out why YouTuber, PewdiePie pretty much lost everything after using an offensive term. And discover how we can learn from these examples to make sure we don’t have all our eggs in one basket. So listen here to find out why it’s important to have a back up plan when it comes to social media platforms, as well as merchant accounts. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Today we are taking, this whole thing is happening on a private plane with Todd Dickerson. Todd: Well, it’s a little bumpy right now. Russell: Alright, so right now we’re on a private plane and I want to show you guys the moon out here. Now we’re in the middle of a cloud. I don’t know if you can see this. Todd: Busting through the clouds. Russell: So those who are watching this, if you’re listening you can’t see it, but we’re on a private plane, we’re at, I don’t know how many feet in the air. We just left Atlanta, Georgia. Not Atlanta, we left Cherokee county, at the airport, which is kind of cool. We were supposed to be…we were really excited because this flight there was supposed to be a beautiful girl right there, and a beautiful girl right there and then Todd right there. But our beautiful ladies, aka our wives are not here. Todd’s daughter got sick the last two or three days so his wife’s like, “I can’t make it.” And then my wife’s like, “Well if she’s not going, I’m not going.” So now we’re on a romantic trip together without our wives because we already booked a plane. Todd: So we’re going anyway, it’s going to be fun. Russell: It’s going to be so awesome. Oh, check it out, here’s the moon. There’s the moon shot. Yeah, there’s the moon. So for those who are watching this, there’s a picture of the moon. It’s so cool. For those of you guys who are listening, you have no idea what we’re seeing, you are totally missing out. Go to marketingsecrets.com and you can watch the video version as well. Anyway, man this plane is really bumpy. Bumpier than I thought. We’re above the clouds now, so we’re legit. Alright for those of you guys who don’t know Todd yet, you need to know him. He is the brains behind Clickfunnels. He’s the one who built it all initially and he lives in Atlanta, Georgia. We’ve been trying to get him to move to Boise now for like 6 years. But he told me no. So finally, I feel bad, he comes to Boise like every quarter. Todd: Every few months. Russell: This is the first time I’ve come to Atlanta to hang out with him and see his house. I had a chance to hang out with him in his home and his family is amazing. Tell them all about how cool you are. Todd: Okay. Russell: Anyway, right now we’re actually heading down to a conference, St Petersburg airport. Todd: Clear water beach. Russell: An email marketing conference, a mastermind thing. Todd: It’s top secret. We’re not allowed to say where it was. Russell: We can’t talk about it. Well, by the time this comes out, you can’t yell at me anyway. So that’s what we’re doing. We’re putting this along so we can show you guys what’s happening. But it’s kind of fun. And check it out, oh it looks so cool. Anyway, I don’t exactly what we’re going to talk about. There’s so many things we can talk about when we’re like, “We’re on the plane, let’s do a podcast.” I have one thing I want to rant about and while I’m ranting I’m going to let Todd rant about whatever he wants. Because I want you guys to get to know him better. So my rant today, right now I’m recording my podcast. Some of you guys know I’ve been a podcast, Marketing In Your Car first, and…… I just popped my ears, that’s why I’m doing weird stuff….So we launched that podcast and ran it for almost 6 years, every single day in my car podcasting, podcasting. Putting in the time, the effort, the work. We built a big following, and then about a year ago we rebranded it as Marketing Secrets. And since we’ve rebranded we have 3.5 million downloads, we’ve been in the top ten business podcasts for the entire year, our video podcast is the number one, not only in the business category, our video podcast is the number one video podcast in all of iTunes. So you’d think that iTunes should like us. Todd: Yeah, you’d think so. Russell: But apparently, ten days ago they decided they didn’t like us. What they did is they shut down, basically, if you’re subscribed to our podcast you continue to get our stuff, but nobody new can subscribe. We’ve been appealing to them, writing to them and they’re like, “Sorry.” And we’re like, “Why are we kicked out?” they’re like, “You’re just kicked out.” Well, why? They won’t tell us why, they just said, “You’re out.” And it reminded me about something I wanted to talk to you guys about because it’s very, very important. And it’s never, never, never trust a platform. If you’re building your business on a platform, just prepare to lose it all very, very soon. I’ve done this multiple times and now it’s happening with iTunes. I’ve lost, how many since we’ve known, how many email auto-responders? Todd: Oh my gosh… Russell: I’ve been kicked out of Aweber, almost a dozen times. iContact, at least 8 or 9. ActiveCampaign, Bellcheck multiple times, SendGrid multiple times and again just recently, they did it again. Facebook I’ve been kicked off at least 2 or 3 dozen times, we’ve been really good and consistent recently. Instagram kicked me off, I got back in luckily. Google kicked us off like a decade ago. We never really got back. YouTube I launched, I had one video that the headline was, “The Internet Marketing Illuminati” and they cancelled our account. It’s just crazy. So all of us, we put all of our eggs in this basket, like Many Chat or Facebook Messenger, every time we put the eggs in, we gotta put all the eggs in this basket. The problem is if somebody doesn’t like you for whatever reason, or no reason at all, they don’t even have to tell you a reason, they can just turn you off. It is insane. You were telling me about the Amazon one today… Todd: Oh yeah, the Amazon guy, so there was guy locally that was selling stuff online on Amazon, and he was killing it and doing great. He ordered a huge new pallet of stuff from China, had it all shipped over and got here. While it was on the way over, Amazon decided to D-List his product. They didn’t like the name of one of the products, they thought it was too close to another name of something else, D-Listed the product completely. His entire revenue stream disappeared overnight. Luckily, he had been talking to one of our other guys, support agents about funnels, so he started his funnels up, but he was completely dependent on Amazon. Lost a business, he had 5 employees, all of his employees are looking for what they’ll be doing next. He’s struggling to get things going and it’s all because he was 100% reliant on Amazon. It doesn’t mean that it can’t be a side channel that’s awesome for sales, but you cannot have it be a primary thing. Not Amazon, not Google, not Facebook, nothing. Russell: It’s crazy. So I just wanted to re-emphasize this to all of you guys. If you’re building your business 100% on Facebook, I got bad news for you, Zuckerberg doesn’t care about you. He doesn’t. “But Russell, I’m paying $1000 a day in Facebook ads.” He doesn’t care. He doesn’t care even a little bit. We’re spending insane amounts of money and they don’t care. They don’t care about you, about me, about any of us. All they care about is their customers, making sure the platform’s happy. And guess who their shareholders and platform doesn’t like? People like us. So guys, you just have to be aware of that. iTunes apparently, now that I know, they don’t like people like me. I don’t know why, I just kind of, added a ton of publicity to their platform, added thousands of viewers, millions of downloads, and they just one day out of the blue, “Oh, bye.” With no rhyme or…it’s crazy to me. Todd: The top guy won’t even tell you why. Russell: Yeah, the escalated it to the highest guy in support, he’s like, “Yep, we cancelled your account.” I’m like, “Why?” He’s like, “This ticket has now been closed.” You won’t even tell me why? I don’t know what to do. So a couple of things. Same thing with merchant accounts. I almost went bankrupt before. I had 14 merchant accounts at one bank and all of them got shut down the same day. So 1 is a very, very scary number in business and in marketing. So always think about having multiple things, having multiple ways you are collecting money or are able to collect money. Making sure you have customers from different platforms, make sure the way you message your customers, there’s multiple platforms. In fact, can we talk about this right now, or is this top secret? Todd: It’s a little top secret still. Russell: It’s still top secret. Todd: We can’t talk about this part of it, but what he’s leaning towards is, what we already do in Actionetics on some levels, is being able to communicate on multiple channels, multiple modalities and stuff. But there’s definitely nice stuff that’s going to be coming in the near future. Russell: I don’t want everyone, again, if you relying 100% on email, you could be in trouble. It’s hurt me multiple times. I think, I would say conservatively about 20 times I’ve lost my email service provider. And I’m not an aggressive marketer, maybe I’m aggressive. I may be aggressive but I’m not unethical. I follow the rules of everything. So it’s just kind of crazy. So a lot of things we’ll do, if you were at last year’s Funnel Hacking Live we talked about the big benefit of using Actionetics, you can plug in your other SMTP and if SendGrid shuts you down, you plug in the new one, but you still keep your accounts. We’re trying to be a platform that’s not shutting our members down, so you have access, so if something bad happens you can plug in to other things. Todd: it’s the new thing with custom domains, I’m not sure….now with Actionetics you’re able to have your own custom domain for everything. So link tracking goes through a custom domain, your unsubscribes go through a custom domain. Everything goes through a custom domain so you don’t have any relationship to any other people on the platform or to us. So if you get in trouble or someone else on the network gets in trouble it doesn’t affect anyone else. Which is, that’s not the case, and the reason why Aweber won’t let you import people into their platform, it’s because if you import people and spam them, then it hurts everyone on Aweber. That’s no longer going to be the case on the whole Actionetics platform. You are super isolated, so it’s only going to affect you if you cause a problem. And if another person on the network causes a problem it’s only going to affect them. Same thing with image hosting and everything, it’s all going to be on your own custom domains now, which is actually already live. So if you haven’t set that up, go set up a custom domain, we’re giving everyone free custom domains. Russell: It’s awesome. We’re trying to figure out ways to make it so that, we care about you guys as customers, we want to protect your businesses, so we’re trying to make Clickfunnels easier to use. So you can add in multiple SMP, multiple ways to collect money, multiple ways to message us. You’re not 100% relying on email. There’s just a lot of cool things that are coming. I can’t tell them about….. I always tell people stuff before we’re ready and Todd yells at me, so I’m going to be careful. But that’s where we’re going and I just want to re-emphasize for you guys. If you are relying on one platform, if Zuckerberg is the way your entire business runs, now is the time to diversify. Don’t diversify in 6 months from now, or a year from now. My guess is that windows not going to be that long. About a year and a half ago when Facebook started shutting our accounts down, I was like, “Lose Facebook, Facebooks over.” For some reason they loosened back up. They had a tight grip on people, but they loosened back up. But you know it’s going to come back again, you saw what Google did. I have friends who are making millions and millions of dollars a month, who when Google put the chokehold out, they never recovered. They’re doing, working at McDonalds, I don’t know where. But they’re not doing their business anymore. So if you want to be around in the long term it’s very important to understand that. I still think you should start with a platform, start with Facebook or whatever that is and go there, but be very aware, as soon as that’s working, it’s like now you need to add a second source, so as soon as one disappears….or I need two merchant accounts, in two separate banks. I need to be able to collect money just in case one dries up or goes away. Make sure multiple auto-responders, SMTP, all those things are very, very important, just don’t rely on a platform. The platform will screw you over. They do not care about you or me, they only care about themselves and their customers. They think for any reason, because of something we produce it effects the experience of the customer, gone. Todd: Or the shareholder. Russell: Or the shareholder. Todd: That’s the reason why we’re not VC by the way. Same type of thing. Russell: The reason why we love you guys, we’re not taking VC money because we want to be able to protect you guys. But it’s crazy, I have no idea. I talked about God in my last podcast, maybe that was why. I don’t know. It’s crazy. In YouTube, we were talking about….who’s that famous dude who lost his YouTube again? Todd: Oh, there’s PewdiePie or whatever, there was 50 million followers. I mean to be fair, there were some things that he shouldn’t have said, but instantly they shut down his business, he had dozens of employees, everyone out of work, completely shut down this entire media empire more or less, with the flip of a switch. Russell: Cutie Pie? Todd: PewdiePie Russell: PewdiePie! So if you guys know PewdiePie, he got screwed by this as well, it’s crazy. And if you look at it there’s stuff on YouTube that’s so super offensive. I don’t even know what he said, but he said something. Todd: He said something offensive, it was probably really bad. Russell: It was probably really bad, yeah. But nevertheless they just crushed him like a grape, and they don’t care. You’re like, “But dude. I put in 5 million dollars a year in your platform.” But “We don’t care about you.” That’s what happened with Google. I remember when Google slapped everybody, everyone’s so shocked like, “I spend a hundred grand a month on Google ads.” They’re like, “You are one of our smallest clients.” Todd: It’s a blib. They won’t even talk to you if you’re spending that. Russell: It’s a lot of money to us, but to them, they don’t even care. They’re just angry that you interrupted the customer experience. So it’s just something to be very, very, very aware of. Todd: Yeah, if you’re selling on Amazon, if you’re building your business on any of these platforms, that’s fine, but you need to also be expanding out. Building your customer list, building your email list, building your different chat lists, building your different communication channels with this. Building an actual business where you’re able to keep things going if Amazon decides to shut you off tomorrow. Because it will happen, it has happened to plenty of people. Russell: So there is your warning. Ye have been warned. Thus sayeth Clickfunnels. Be careful because they will screw you over. Okay, one last thing for this podcast. Todd’s working on tons of new stuff, we can’t talk about it, but what are you most excited about with the new stuff in Clickfunnels coming out? Todd: I’m most excited about this thing that I can’t tell you about yet. Russell: Sorry! It’s so awesome though. He showed me all the screenshots today. Todd: So yeah, there’s the potential to basically 2x probably the results that you’re getting from different leads that are coming in on the front door from a communication perspective. Double open rates, double click rates, that kind of thing on what you’re currently seeing on your primary channel of communication. Russell: That’s like being super, low balling. Double is…. Todd: Super generic low balling but it’s way more than that. Russell: Yeah, it really is probably. Todd: Yeah, it really is probably way more than that. And there’s also some cool things with payment processing that we’re beta testing right now that should literally instantly double mobile conversions. Russell: That one we can talk about? Todd: Yeah, I mean we can talk about that. Russell: You can be in on this one. Todd: So ApplePay, AndroidPay and Paypal all on one push to order. So the results we’re seeing preliminary at least, on the apple based stuff is literally, you go online, you click add apple pay to your thing, you press your thumb on it, and it’s instant. Everything works with upsells, with OTO’s, down sells, one click ad sales. Russell: So imagine on your mobile, you’re on your phone and someone comes with a free plus shipping offer and they buy, does ApplePay pop up on their phone? Todd: They only literally have to order once. They order on your primary order form, one time. Just like you, instead of typing in an order number, we have their thumbprint. Boom, it’s ordered. And then on an upsell they can just click one button, just like you would if they had to put in a credit card number. We can charge them, do the whole process, do everything we need to do. Same thing for Android. That’s the other sexy part that just recently came out. Brand new Android, they’re calling it like Google Pay or something like that, but we’ll be also supporting that as well. So you’ll be able to have Apple and Android, which for the longest time, most of the other platforms out there, they still have, if they do support it, it’s only Apple. Russell: So that’s crazy. For those who are selling stuff mobile-y, it’s going to make your mobile experience so insanely good. People, I don’t know about you, I never buy things on my phone because I hate trying to type my credit card with my thumb. So what I do, I always email myself the link and then sometimes I buy stuff and sometimes I don’t because at that point I forget about it, whereas this is now like, oh…and they click their little thumbprint and it dings their card and then upsell, upsell, upsell, boom, fulfillment. I’m also going to prophecy, I don’t know if I should prophecy, it’s kind of sacreligious. I don’t want to get shot down in this plane. I’m going to forecast, is that a better word? I’m going to forecast the future of where things are going. I was telling Steven this the other day. You know how we always design websites for desktops, usually wide, using multiple columns and stuff like that, mark my word, the future of where website design is going, is in single column, narrow width pages. If you look at Dollar Shave Club’s order form, this is the best example. You go to the page and the order form is like this wide going down the middle, and the fields are all centered and very, very clear, and it works really good mobile-y. But I think that’s going to be the future of where even desktop is all designed. That’s my forecast, I’m guessing. So you’ll start seeing, you’ll notice Clickfunnels, one of our order pages right now is a lot more simple. That, I think that’s where future things are going to be. Todd: It needs to be sized down properly, to do that. And you can easily, in the Clickfunnels editor, you can easily do that. Just jump into mobile mode, build it first in mobile mode, click desktop and you’ll see it in both modes. That’s the great thing about it. You literally only have to design it once. You might change some font sizes or show some images on desktop that you don’t show on mobile, stuff like that, that you can customize. But in reality you can do it first on mobile very easily. Russell: I think people read more on mobile than videos, don’t you? Todd: Yeah. Russell: When I’m looking, I never push play on a video on mobile, like a sales video, I’d rather always read. Which is why I also think like a blend of video plus text is going to be more and more important. I look at a lot of our stuff now and it’s like here’s the video of me pitching it and then below there’s the copy of me pitching it. Because a lot of video I’ll see the play button, but I’ll, typically you’re in the bathroom or something and it’s awkward. This is my phone hand….Just kidding. Anyway, there’s some forecasts and some ideas. But that’s what we got for you guys. So I hope you guys have enjoyed the flight. We’re probably half way to our destination. All you need to remember is, first off, don’t rely on one platform for anything. Your advertizing, your messaging to your customers, your merchanting, the only one platform you should be relying on 100% is Clickfunnels because we love you guys. Todd: We’re flexible with everything too. We allow you plug in other platforms. We allow you to plug in every other platform out there. That’s why we built a way for you to…. Russell: We’re the only ones that love you enough that you should just focus on us. But then like I said, our focus, one big thing that we’re moving forward, is building in all the back ends, so you can plug in backups for stuff, you have multiple ways to message people outside of just email, in case email gets shutdown. Multiple merchant accounts in case your merchant accounts get shut down. All those kind of things. But don’t forget on your ad side, on your podcast side, all those things. My podcast downloads have dropped because I’m no longer listed, which drives me nuts. And nobody can subscribe to my podcast now. So now I gotta do work, anyway it’s just a new annoyance happening. And there’s always a work-around. If you get your Facebook account shut down, don’t just walk away and be like, “Apparently I broke their terms…” This is the other thing that drives me crazy. I remember, you’ve probably heard us talk about SEO days, people were like, who were anti-SEO were like, “Well, we don’t want to do this because it’s against Google’s terms of service.” And it’s like, “Their terms of service…they’re coming to your website and spidering you. You can do whatever you want on your website.” It’s this weird thing. So same thing, people getting their Facebook account shutdown are like, “It’s over. I’m done. This is not fair.” No, you don’t understand. This is your business, this is war. If they’re coming in and shutting you down, you need to fight back and get back in and keep coming back and coming back. Don’t just get knocked down and be like, “Ugh, I’m dead.” If that had happened to us, we would have lost our business decades ago. But we’re fighters so we get back up and keep going. So you’ll see my podcast back, very, very soon. It’s annoying because I will lose all of my pre….anyway, we’ll leave it at that. It’s all fun games. When all is said and done, it doesn’t really matter. We’re trying to change the world and these guys get in our way. The platform will get in your way, and try to keep you from that. So just ignore them and keep moving forward. They shut you down, come back, make some tweaks, changes and keep going on and keep serving your people because they’re there, it matters, it’s worth it. Anything else? Any final words? Todd: See you on the ground. Russell: See you guys. Bye everybody.

A podcast from Russell and Todd in a private plane. On this special private plane episode Russell and Clickfunnels co-founder, Todd Dickerson, rant about troubles they’ve had with different platforms, most recently iTunes. Here are some of the interesting things you will hear on this episode: Find out why Russell is not longer getting subscribers for his podcast, and how all efforts to fix the problem have been fruitless. Hear Todd tell a story about a friend of his that basically lost his business when Amazon D-listed his product. Find out why YouTuber, PewdiePie pretty much lost everything after using an offensive term. And discover how we can learn from these examples to make sure we don’t have all our eggs in one basket. So listen here to find out why it’s important to have a back up plan when it comes to social media platforms, as well as merchant accounts. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Today we are taking, this whole thing is happening on a private plane with Todd Dickerson. Todd: Well, it’s a little bumpy right now. Russell: Alright, so right now we’re on a private plane and I want to show you guys the moon out here. Now we’re in the middle of a cloud. I don’t know if you can see this. Todd: Busting through the clouds. Russell: So those who are watching this, if you’re listening you can’t see it, but we’re on a private plane, we’re at, I don’t know how many feet in the air. We just left Atlanta, Georgia. Not Atlanta, we left Cherokee county, at the airport, which is kind of cool. We were supposed to be…we were really excited because this flight there was supposed to be a beautiful girl right there, and a beautiful girl right there and then Todd right there. But our beautiful ladies, aka our wives are not here. Todd’s daughter got sick the last two or three days so his wife’s like, “I can’t make it.” And then my wife’s like, “Well if she’s not going, I’m not going.” So now we’re on a romantic trip together without our wives because we already booked a plane. Todd: So we’re going anyway, it’s going to be fun. Russell: It’s going to be so awesome. Oh, check it out, here’s the moon. There’s the moon shot. Yeah, there’s the moon. So for those who are watching this, there’s a picture of the moon. It’s so cool. For those of you guys who are listening, you have no idea what we’re seeing, you are totally missing out. Go to marketingsecrets.com and you can watch the video version as well. Anyway, man this plane is really bumpy. Bumpier than I thought. We’re above the clouds now, so we’re legit. Alright for those of you guys who don’t know Todd yet, you need to know him. He is the brains behind Clickfunnels. He’s the one who built it all initially and he lives in Atlanta, Georgia. We’ve been trying to get him to move to Boise now for like 6 years. But he told me no. So finally, I feel bad, he comes to Boise like every quarter. Todd: Every few months. Russell: This is the first time I’ve come to Atlanta to hang out with him and see his house. I had a chance to hang out with him in his home and his family is amazing. Tell them all about how cool you are. Todd: Okay. Russell: Anyway, right now we’re actually heading down to a conference, St Petersburg airport. Todd: Clear water beach. Russell: An email marketing conference, a mastermind thing. Todd: It’s top secret. We’re not allowed to say where it was. Russell: We can’t talk about it. Well, by the time this comes out, you can’t yell at me anyway. So that’s what we’re doing. We’re putting this along so we can show you guys what’s happening. But it’s kind of fun. And check it out, oh it looks so cool. Anyway, I don’t exactly what we’re going to talk about. There’s so many things we can talk about when we’re like, “We’re on the plane, let’s do a podcast.” I have one thing I want to rant about and while I’m ranting I’m going to let Todd rant about whatever he wants. Because I want you guys to get to know him better. So my rant today, right now I’m recording my podcast. Some of you guys know I’ve been a podcast, Marketing In Your Car first, and…… I just popped my ears, that’s why I’m doing weird stuff….So we launched that podcast and ran it for almost 6 years, every single day in my car podcasting, podcasting. Putting in the time, the effort, the work. We built a big following, and then about a year ago we rebranded it as Marketing Secrets. And since we’ve rebranded we have 3.5 million downloads, we’ve been in the top ten business podcasts for the entire year, our video podcast is the number one, not only in the business category, our video podcast is the number one video podcast in all of iTunes. So you’d think that iTunes should like us. Todd: Yeah, you’d think so. Russell: But apparently, ten days ago they decided they didn’t like us. What they did is they shut down, basically, if you’re subscribed to our podcast you continue to get our stuff, but nobody new can subscribe. We’ve been appealing to them, writing to them and they’re like, “Sorry.” And we’re like, “Why are we kicked out?” they’re like, “You’re just kicked out.” Well, why? They won’t tell us why, they just said, “You’re out.” And it reminded me about something I wanted to talk to you guys about because it’s very, very important. And it’s never, never, never trust a platform. If you’re building your business on a platform, just prepare to lose it all very, very soon. I’ve done this multiple times and now it’s happening with iTunes. I’ve lost, how many since we’ve known, how many email auto-responders? Todd: Oh my gosh… Russell: I’ve been kicked out of Aweber, almost a dozen times. iContact, at least 8 or 9. ActiveCampaign, Bellcheck multiple times, SendGrid multiple times and again just recently, they did it again. Facebook I’ve been kicked off at least 2 or 3 dozen times, we’ve been really good and consistent recently. Instagram kicked me off, I got back in luckily. Google kicked us off like a decade ago. We never really got back. YouTube I launched, I had one video that the headline was, “The Internet Marketing Illuminati” and they cancelled our account. It’s just crazy. So all of us, we put all of our eggs in this basket, like Many Chat or Facebook Messenger, every time we put the eggs in, we gotta put all the eggs in this basket. The problem is if somebody doesn’t like you for whatever reason, or no reason at all, they don’t even have to tell you a reason, they can just turn you off. It is insane. You were telling me about the Amazon one today… Todd: Oh yeah, the Amazon guy, so there was guy locally that was selling stuff online on Amazon, and he was killing it and doing great. He ordered a huge new pallet of stuff from China, had it all shipped over and got here. While it was on the way over, Amazon decided to D-List his product. They didn’t like the name of one of the products, they thought it was too close to another name of something else, D-Listed the product completely. His entire revenue stream disappeared overnight. Luckily, he had been talking to one of our other guys, support agents about funnels, so he started his funnels up, but he was completely dependent on Amazon. Lost a business, he had 5 employees, all of his employees are looking for what they’ll be doing next. He’s struggling to get things going and it’s all because he was 100% reliant on Amazon. It doesn’t mean that it can’t be a side channel that’s awesome for sales, but you cannot have it be a primary thing. Not Amazon, not Google, not Facebook, nothing. Russell: It’s crazy. So I just wanted to re-emphasize this to all of you guys. If you’re building your business 100% on Facebook, I got bad news for you, Zuckerberg doesn’t care about you. He doesn’t. “But Russell, I’m paying $1000 a day in Facebook ads.” He doesn’t care. He doesn’t care even a little bit. We’re spending insane amounts of money and they don’t care. They don’t care about you, about me, about any of us. All they care about is their customers, making sure the platform’s happy. And guess who their shareholders and platform doesn’t like? People like us. So guys, you just have to be aware of that. iTunes apparently, now that I know, they don’t like people like me. I don’t know why, I just kind of, added a ton of publicity to their platform, added thousands of viewers, millions of downloads, and they just one day out of the blue, “Oh, bye.” With no rhyme or…it’s crazy to me. Todd: The top guy won’t even tell you why. Russell: Yeah, the escalated it to the highest guy in support, he’s like, “Yep, we cancelled your account.” I’m like, “Why?” He’s like, “This ticket has now been closed.” You won’t even tell me why? I don’t know what to do. So a couple of things. Same thing with merchant accounts. I almost went bankrupt before. I had 14 merchant accounts at one bank and all of them got shut down the same day. So 1 is a very, very scary number in business and in marketing. So always think about having multiple things, having multiple ways you are collecting money or are able to collect money. Making sure you have customers from different platforms, make sure the way you message your customers, there’s multiple platforms. In fact, can we talk about this right now, or is this top secret? Todd: It’s a little top secret still. Russell: It’s still top secret. Todd: We can’t talk about this part of it, but what he’s leaning towards is, what we already do in Actionetics on some levels, is being able to communicate on multiple channels, multiple modalities and stuff. But there’s definitely nice stuff that’s going to be coming in the near future. Russell: I don’t want everyone, again, if you relying 100% on email, you could be in trouble. It’s hurt me multiple times. I think, I would say conservatively about 20 times I’ve lost my email service provider. And I’m not an aggressive marketer, maybe I’m aggressive. I may be aggressive but I’m not unethical. I follow the rules of everything. So it’s just kind of crazy. So a lot of things we’ll do, if you were at last year’s Funnel Hacking Live we talked about the big benefit of using Actionetics, you can plug in your other SMTP and if SendGrid shuts you down, you plug in the new one, but you still keep your accounts. We’re trying to be a platform that’s not shutting our members down, so you have access, so if something bad happens you can plug in to other things. Todd: it’s the new thing with custom domains, I’m not sure….now with Actionetics you’re able to have your own custom domain for everything. So link tracking goes through a custom domain, your unsubscribes go through a custom domain. Everything goes through a custom domain so you don’t have any relationship to any other people on the platform or to us. So if you get in trouble or someone else on the network gets in trouble it doesn’t affect anyone else. Which is, that’s not the case, and the reason why Aweber won’t let you import people into their platform, it’s because if you import people and spam them, then it hurts everyone on Aweber. That’s no longer going to be the case on the whole Actionetics platform. You are super isolated, so it’s only going to affect you if you cause a problem. And if another person on the network causes a problem it’s only going to affect them. Same thing with image hosting and everything, it’s all going to be on your own custom domains now, which is actually already live. So if you haven’t set that up, go set up a custom domain, we’re giving everyone free custom domains. Russell: It’s awesome. We’re trying to figure out ways to make it so that, we care about you guys as customers, we want to protect your businesses, so we’re trying to make Clickfunnels easier to use. So you can add in multiple SMP, multiple ways to collect money, multiple ways to message us. You’re not 100% relying on email. There’s just a lot of cool things that are coming. I can’t tell them about….. I always tell people stuff before we’re ready and Todd yells at me, so I’m going to be careful. But that’s where we’re going and I just want to re-emphasize for you guys. If you are relying on one platform, if Zuckerberg is the way your entire business runs, now is the time to diversify. Don’t diversify in 6 months from now, or a year from now. My guess is that windows not going to be that long. About a year and a half ago when Facebook started shutting our accounts down, I was like, “Lose Facebook, Facebooks over.” For some reason they loosened back up. They had a tight grip on people, but they loosened back up. But you know it’s going to come back again, you saw what Google did. I have friends who are making millions and millions of dollars a month, who when Google put the chokehold out, they never recovered. They’re doing, working at McDonalds, I don’t know where. But they’re not doing their business anymore. So if you want to be around in the long term it’s very important to understand that. I still think you should start with a platform, start with Facebook or whatever that is and go there, but be very aware, as soon as that’s working, it’s like now you need to add a second source, so as soon as one disappears….or I need two merchant accounts, in two separate banks. I need to be able to collect money just in case one dries up or goes away. Make sure multiple auto-responders, SMTP, all those things are very, very important, just don’t rely on a platform. The platform will screw you over. They do not care about you or me, they only care about themselves and their customers. They think for any reason, because of something we produce it effects the experience of the customer, gone. Todd: Or the shareholder. Russell: Or the shareholder. Todd: That’s the reason why we’re not VC by the way. Same type of thing. Russell: The reason why we love you guys, we’re not taking VC money because we want to be able to protect you guys. But it’s crazy, I have no idea. I talked about God in my last podcast, maybe that was why. I don’t know. It’s crazy. In YouTube, we were talking about….who’s that famous dude who lost his YouTube again? Todd: Oh, there’s PewdiePie or whatever, there was 50 million followers. I mean to be fair, there were some things that he shouldn’t have said, but instantly they shut down his business, he had dozens of employees, everyone out of work, completely shut down this entire media empire more or less, with the flip of a switch. Russell: Cutie Pie? Todd: PewdiePie Russell: PewdiePie! So if you guys know PewdiePie, he got screwed by this as well, it’s crazy. And if you look at it there’s stuff on YouTube that’s so super offensive. I don’t even know what he said, but he said something. Todd: He said something offensive, it was probably really bad. Russell: It was probably really bad, yeah. But nevertheless they just crushed him like a grape, and they don’t care. You’re like, “But dude. I put in 5 million dollars a year in your platform.” But “We don’t care about you.” That’s what happened with Google. I remember when Google slapped everybody, everyone’s so shocked like, “I spend a hundred grand a month on Google ads.” They’re like, “You are one of our smallest clients.” Todd: It’s a blib. They won’t even talk to you if you’re spending that. Russell: It’s a lot of money to us, but to them, they don’t even care. They’re just angry that you interrupted the customer experience. So it’s just something to be very, very, very aware of. Todd: Yeah, if you’re selling on Amazon, if you’re building your business on any of these platforms, that’s fine, but you need to also be expanding out. Building your customer list, building your email list, building your different chat lists, building your different communication channels with this. Building an actual business where you’re able to keep things going if Amazon decides to shut you off tomorrow. Because it will happen, it has happened to plenty of people. Russell: So there is your warning. Ye have been warned. Thus sayeth Clickfunnels. Be careful because they will screw you over. Okay, one last thing for this podcast. Todd’s working on tons of new stuff, we can’t talk about it, but what are you most excited about with the new stuff in Clickfunnels coming out? Todd: I’m most excited about this thing that I can’t tell you about yet. Russell: Sorry! It’s so awesome though. He showed me all the screenshots today. Todd: So yeah, there’s the potential to basically 2x probably the results that you’re getting from different leads that are coming in on the front door from a communication perspective. Double open rates, double click rates, that kind of thing on what you’re currently seeing on your primary channel of communication. Russell: That’s like being super, low balling. Double is…. Todd: Super generic low balling but it’s way more than that. Russell: Yeah, it really is probably. Todd: Yeah, it really is probably way more than that. And there’s also some cool things with payment processing that we’re beta testing right now that should literally instantly double mobile conversions. Russell: That one we can talk about? Todd: Yeah, I mean we can talk about that. Russell: You can be in on this one. Todd: So ApplePay, AndroidPay and Paypal all on one push to order. So the results we’re seeing preliminary at least, on the apple based stuff is literally, you go online, you click add apple pay to your thing, you press your thumb on it, and it’s instant. Everything works with upsells, with OTO’s, down sells, one click ad sales. Russell: So imagine on your mobile, you’re on your phone and someone comes with a free plus shipping offer and they buy, does ApplePay pop up on their phone? Todd: They only literally have to order once. They order on your primary order form, one time. Just like you, instead of typing in an order number, we have their thumbprint. Boom, it’s ordered. And then on an upsell they can just click one button, just like you would if they had to put in a credit card number. We can charge them, do the whole process, do everything we need to do. Same thing for Android. That’s the other sexy part that just recently came out. Brand new Android, they’re calling it like Google Pay or something like that, but we’ll be also supporting that as well. So you’ll be able to have Apple and Android, which for the longest time, most of the other platforms out there, they still have, if they do support it, it’s only Apple. Russell: So that’s crazy. For those who are selling stuff mobile-y, it’s going to make your mobile experience so insanely good. People, I don’t know about you, I never buy things on my phone because I hate trying to type my credit card with my thumb. So what I do, I always email myself the link and then sometimes I buy stuff and sometimes I don’t because at that point I forget about it, whereas this is now like, oh…and they click their little thumbprint and it dings their card and then upsell, upsell, upsell, boom, fulfillment. I’m also going to prophecy, I don’t know if I should prophecy, it’s kind of sacreligious. I don’t want to get shot down in this plane. I’m going to forecast, is that a better word? I’m going to forecast the future of where things are going. I was telling Steven this the other day. You know how we always design websites for desktops, usually wide, using multiple columns and stuff like that, mark my word, the future of where website design is going, is in single column, narrow width pages. If you look at Dollar Shave Club’s order form, this is the best example. You go to the page and the order form is like this wide going down the middle, and the fields are all centered and very, very clear, and it works really good mobile-y. But I think that’s going to be the future of where even desktop is all designed. That’s my forecast, I’m guessing. So you’ll start seeing, you’ll notice Clickfunnels, one of our order pages right now is a lot more simple. That, I think that’s where future things are going to be. Todd: It needs to be sized down properly, to do that. And you can easily, in the Clickfunnels editor, you can easily do that. Just jump into mobile mode, build it first in mobile mode, click desktop and you’ll see it in both modes. That’s the great thing about it. You literally only have to design it once. You might change some font sizes or show some images on desktop that you don’t show on mobile, stuff like that, that you can customize. But in reality you can do it first on mobile very easily. Russell: I think people read more on mobile than videos, don’t you? Todd: Yeah. Russell: When I’m looking, I never push play on a video on mobile, like a sales video, I’d rather always read. Which is why I also think like a blend of video plus text is going to be more and more important. I look at a lot of our stuff now and it’s like here’s the video of me pitching it and then below there’s the copy of me pitching it. Because a lot of video I’ll see the play button, but I’ll, typically you’re in the bathroom or something and it’s awkward. This is my phone hand….Just kidding. Anyway, there’s some forecasts and some ideas. But that’s what we got for you guys. So I hope you guys have enjoyed the flight. We’re probably half way to our destination. All you need to remember is, first off, don’t rely on one platform for anything. Your advertizing, your messaging to your customers, your merchanting, the only one platform you should be relying on 100% is Clickfunnels because we love you guys. Todd: We’re flexible with everything too. We allow you plug in other platforms. We allow you to plug in every other platform out there. That’s why we built a way for you to…. Russell: We’re the only ones that love you enough that you should just focus on us. But then like I said, our focus, one big thing that we’re moving forward, is building in all the back ends, so you can plug in backups for stuff, you have multiple ways to message people outside of just email, in case email gets shutdown. Multiple merchant accounts in case your merchant accounts get shut down. All those kind of things. But don’t forget on your ad side, on your podcast side, all those things. My podcast downloads have dropped because I’m no longer listed, which drives me nuts. And nobody can subscribe to my podcast now. So now I gotta do work, anyway it’s just a new annoyance happening. And there’s always a work-around. If you get your Facebook account shut down, don’t just walk away and be like, “Apparently I broke their terms…” This is the other thing that drives me crazy. I remember, you’ve probably heard us talk about SEO days, people were like, who were anti-SEO were like, “Well, we don’t want to do this because it’s against Google’s terms of service.” And it’s like, “Their terms of service…they’re coming to your website and spidering you. You can do whatever you want on your website.” It’s this weird thing. So same thing, people getting their Facebook account shutdown are like, “It’s over. I’m done. This is not fair.” No, you don’t understand. This is your business, this is war. If they’re coming in and shutting you down, you need to fight back and get back in and keep coming back and coming back. Don’t just get knocked down and be like, “Ugh, I’m dead.” If that had happened to us, we would have lost our business decades ago. But we’re fighters so we get back up and keep going. So you’ll see my podcast back, very, very soon. It’s annoying because I will lose all of my pre….anyway, we’ll leave it at that. It’s all fun games. When all is said and done, it doesn’t really matter. We’re trying to change the world and these guys get in our way. The platform will get in your way, and try to keep you from that. So just ignore them and keep moving forward. They shut you down, come back, make some tweaks, changes and keep going on and keep serving your people because they’re there, it matters, it’s worth it. Anything else? Any final words? Todd: See you on the ground. Russell: See you guys. Bye everybody.