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This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit smokeempodcast.substack.comBefore we talk about this episode: Pretty-please go to YouTube and subscribe to our new channel. It costs you nothing! It could give you so much joy! Now, on to the show:Nancy and Sarah go deep on the Sean Combs case, thus inspiring them to slap the first warning label on a Smoke ‘Em episode. This one's explicit! It's also sad, confusing, funny-depressing, one more cautionary tale about fame, money, and power. They talk about the recent conviction of Gerard Depardieu, the one-time Casanova of French cinema who confessed in the course of his trial that he was “ill suited for the current era.”Also discussed:* Age of consent laws are wild* France reckons five years later* Zut alors, the jerk lawyer in that Depardieu case!* Nancy needs seven showers* Mise en place, mise en scene …* Cowboys 4 Angels* Baby oil, so much baby oil* Dan Savage, you're our last hope* “But I don't want to go to a Brazilian steakhouse!”* The backstory behind that violent March 2016 footage in the hotel* Beware the scared man who fears his woman is getting too powerful* Does the public have a right to see Diddy freak-off footage? Nancy: Yes. Sarah: No. Wanna guess who would watch it, though?* Nancy flirts with victim-blaming, pulls back from the brink* Send hate mail to Gavin de Becker* But what is sex trafficking?* Nancy tells a tragic story about an old acquaintance* A drinking problem starts as a drinking solutionPlus, the book that is blowing Sarah's mind, Nancy's magical trip to a land before time, altogether too much freaking off, and much more!Because we'll never cover you in baby oil (unless you ask nice) — become a paid subscriber

If you were managing a football team and you had someone with the skills to be a star quarterback, would you have them be a kicker?  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the pitfalls of having dual roles in your property management business. You'll Learn [01:26] How to Guarantee Your Team Will Fail [06:19] Why Dual Roles Often Do Not Work [09:17] Set Your Team Members Up for Success Quotables “It's never ideal when we have a dual role, but it is possible in certain cases.”  ”Most entrepreneurs, we can do this, we can shift and balance back and forth. The problem is that then we think that's normal. And we expect other people to be able to do that.” “We make the mistake as entrepreneurs of assuming other people think the way we do.” “You probably could wear 10 different hats in your business, but you don't enjoy doing probably half of them at least.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If you have a star quarterback... [00:00:02] Jason: yes.  [00:00:03] Sarah: And that quarterback...  [00:00:03] Jason: super sharp  [00:00:04] Sarah: can put that ball anywhere on the field with pinpoint precision,  [00:00:08] Jason: right?  [00:00:09] Sarah: Are you going to take that quarterback and make him the kicker?  [00:00:12] Jason: All right. We are Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we have spoken to thousands of property management business owners, coached, consulted, and cleaned up hundreds of businesses, helping them add doors, improve pricing, increase profits, simplify operations, and build and replace teams. We are like Bar Rescue for property managers. In fact, we have cleaned up and rebranded over 300 property management businesses, and we run the leading property management mastermind with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry.  [00:01:02] Jason: At DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world, and that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:01:12] Jason: At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show. Alright. [00:01:26] Jason: Sarah, what are we talking about today?  [00:01:29] Sarah: We are going to talk about how you can almost guarantee that your team will fail.  [00:01:34] Jason: Guaranteed failure. And the method to do this- yes- we call dual role...  [00:01:40] Sarah: oh.  [00:01:41] Jason: Team members...  [00:01:41] Sarah: yes.  [00:01:42] Jason: Right? So and so, what's the scenario? What do we mean by dual role? And it's pretty common. [00:01:48] Sarah: I see it quite a bit.  [00:01:50] Sarah: Yeah. Do you see it a lot?  [00:01:51] Jason: Yeah. I mean, do you want me to explain the idea or you want to explain what you see?  [00:01:55] Jason: No, I just want to know if you see it a lot.  [00:01:56] Jason: Yeah. I see a lot of people make this mistake when hiring. I don't see it work  [00:02:01] Sarah: Well, no.  [00:02:02] Jason: And I see people try to do it, but I see a lot of failure. [00:02:06] Jason: I've seen companies with, I talked to one the other day with 6,000 doors, which was kind of trying to do a dual role. And I've seen lots of startups try to do more than just two roles. They're trying to get somebody that's like them. They're like, I just need to find the clone. I call that the clone myth, like that's the earliest stage of hiring, the biggest mistake. [00:02:26] Jason: They're like, I just need somebody that can do 10 roles, 10 things. Someone just like me as an entrepreneur that would love to work for me, unlike an entrepreneur. Right. So how about you? You've helped a lot of our clients with hiring. So what what comes up?  [00:02:41] Sarah: So usually, and let's just backtrack and say, alright, by dual role. [00:02:47] Sarah: Yeah. What we mean is, Hey, I need to hire someone and they're going to do this and that. So they're going to do, you know, sales and manage the doors. They're going to do the operations and like help me with the team and stuff and then also they're going to be a property manager or a maintenance coordinator or whatever. [00:03:08] Sarah: Yeah. So take two roles that are not the same thing and mash them together, and this is what we mean by dual role. And this situation gets aggravated significantly if those two different roles are also two different personality types.  [00:03:26] Jason: Yeah.  [00:03:26] Sarah: So if you have someone who's going to do operations and function as an assistant. [00:03:32] Sarah: Okay. I mean, it's not ideal, but it's possible. Yeah. It's possible. If you have someone who's going to function as like a sales appointment setter and a closer or, and a BDM. It's possible. It's never ideal when we have a dual role, but it is possible in certain cases. [00:03:52] Sarah: Okay. Where it never works out is what all entrepreneurs think is, "oh, I'm like that. I can do that." Yeah. So somebody else should be able to do that too. Well, I can shift in and out of different roles and in and out of different personality types, and I can turn it on and off like a light switch when I need to, so then that means everybody can, and it's not true. We are very unique in that.  [00:04:17] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:17] Sarah: So I can also turn it on and off, like light switch when I need to get into something, I'm like, okay. Like let's go. And then when I'm done, I'm like, oh, okay. Get out of that. And I kind of shift back to my natural normal state. [00:04:30] Sarah: So if any of you guys see me ever in person. That is not my natural normal state. It's just not because it's so high energy. Especially at something like a DoorGrow Live event. Yeah. Like after DoorGrow Live, I crash for about two days, like two full days. This is true. I'm done. I am done. I sleep for like 15 hours, 16 hours straight because I've spent too much time in my opposite. [00:04:54] Sarah: Yeah. And most entrepreneurs, we can do this, we can shift and balance back and forth. The problem is that then we think that's normal. And we expect other people to be able to do that, and most people cannot do that.  [00:05:07] Jason: Yeah. The mistake that a lot of us make, like you said, is we make the mistake as entrepreneurs of assuming other people think the way we do. [00:05:15] Jason: Entrepreneurs do this all the time. They assume other people are money motivated, so they try to bonus them or compensate them with money. Most people are not actually. They assume that people are adaptable and can just wear lots of different hats and be entrepreneurial like that way, but that's also not generally the case. [00:05:34] Jason: And if they are adaptable, usually they go start their own business. So they leave, and I've seen a lot of property managers steal doors from their employers, so their employer's basically just training their next replacement.  [00:05:47] Jason: I love, I think when we don't put the dogs away during a podcast, and I'm being super sarcastic right now. [00:05:52] Sarah: Yeah. Well, I did say this was going to be a quick podcast, but the food... [00:05:56] Sarah: so maybe this is a sign we should wrap it up. Yeah, the food that you ordered is probably...  [00:06:01] Jason: Oh yeah. I ordered some food. [00:06:02] Sarah: ...being delivered right now because it's like six o'clock on a Monday right now. Which is great.  [00:06:07] Jason: They're protecting us from the food. [00:06:09] Jason: So, while we've got a chorus of dogs in the background.  [00:06:12] Sarah: They're just confirming.  [00:06:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:06:14] Sarah: They're like, definitely they agree with us. Don't try to hire two different people. So here's the idea.  [00:06:19] Jason: Let's break this down real quick and then we'll wrap up because the dogs are going insane, but. People do not have split personalities that you want to hire. [00:06:28] Jason: They're not two different people, and so different roles have different personality types, and it's very difficult to find somebody that can jump into very different roles and personalities that would actually enjoy those. Even you as a business owner, you probably could wear 10 different hats in your business, but you don't enjoy doing probably half of them at least. [00:06:46] Jason: If not most. Yeah. And so that's the idea. So you need to figure out what would a good property manager look like? What would a good business development person look like? They can't be both. What would a good assistant look like? What would a good operations person look like? What would a good maintenance coordinator look like? [00:07:02] Jason: They can't be multiple things typically, and I think we got to end. Okay. It's getting louder.  [00:07:08] Sarah: They're just dropping off the order. That's all. Now we have three dogs barking.  [00:07:13] Jason: It's not stopping.  [00:07:14] Sarah: So we have a big one and a medium one and a very little one.  [00:07:19] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:19] Sarah: But you know, that's a good example though, is so we've got three very different dogs. [00:07:25] Sarah: Like Captain is small, he's maybe 14 pounds, and Parker is pretty large. He's about 85 pounds. So would I do the same thing for the big dog that I would do for the little dog? No, I'm going to feed him differently. I'm going to, you know, get him like a different size harness, et cetera. You have to kind of think of roles in your business the same way. If you're trying to treat every role the exact same, it'll be really hard because you'll be like, I don't know, I don't understand. Like that worked with my sales guy. Why can't I just throw more money at this person and then they're going to be better? Yeah. That worked with my sales guy. [00:07:58] Sarah: Yeah, of course it did. It's not going to work in other roles. And then if you're a dual role and you're trying to constantly bounce back and forth, like, oh, I got to do the sales and I got to like do maintenance coordination and like property management work, like, oh well, which, what am I supposed to do? [00:08:14] Sarah: What do I prioritize? And then when you get busy, when you get overwhelmed and you get stressed, something is going to not get done. And it's really hard sometimes to choose, well, what am I going to sacrifice? Because both things are important, and I can tell you that 99% of the time, the thing that will be sacrificed is the thing that they just don't like doing. [00:08:35] Sarah: Yeah. So if they don't like doing the property management piece. Your delivery is going to tank. And then if they don't like doing the sales piece, they're going to focus on the delivery and your sales. You're going to have none. And you'll be wondering, well, I don't understand. Like I hired you to do both and this is why this is that pitfall. [00:08:53] Sarah: So if you want to guarantee that your team is going to fail, that your business is going to be stressed, and that your team, you are, it's almost a guaranteed like turnover of your team as well because they're not going to, they're not going to stay when they're not happy. And part of them is doing a role that they hate. [00:09:11] Sarah: The other part of them might be doing something that they really love, but part of them, for part of their day, they're doing something that they hate.  [00:09:17] Jason: Yeah. So to drive this home, it's really important that you don't put people in a position that they're going to fail. And here's a big major tip. If you have somebody that's good at selling, and you're having them waste time doing anything else, that is a really stupid way to like waste a resource. Like if somebody can make you money and bring fresh money into the business and you have them doing stupid stuff like posting notices or talking to your existing clients. You are wasting a massively valuable resource. [00:09:54] Jason: They would make you so much money they could pay for multiple other team members if you just let them only focus on business development. And so if they can sell, get them just doing that. If they're good at that. If they are good at property management, don't have them waste time dinking around trying to sell. [00:10:11] Jason: Go get somebody that can sell, that can grow your business. Right. And there's other roles, but we're using these two as an example. But yeah, dual roles work. I doesn't work.  [00:10:19] Jason: I think  [00:10:19] Sarah: that's one of the most common ones. I see.  [00:10:21] Jason: Yeah. It is pretty common.  [00:10:22] Sarah: It's either sales and operations, which like never works. [00:10:25] Sarah: Yeah. Or sales and like property management. Yeah. Those are like the two most common that I see. And the way that I explain it to people is. If you understand sports... [00:10:37] Sarah: we're using sports analogy?  [00:10:38] Sarah: We are. We're going to use a sports analogy. Okay. So on a football team...  [00:10:43] Jason: yes. [00:10:43] Sarah: If you have a star quarterback... [00:10:46] Jason: yes.  [00:10:46] Sarah: And that quarterback...  [00:10:47] Jason: super sharp  [00:10:47] Sarah: can put that ball anywhere on the field with pinpoint precision,  [00:10:52] Jason: right?  [00:10:52] Sarah: Are you going to take that quarterback and make him the kicker?  [00:10:56] Jason: No, that'd be stupid.  [00:10:57] Sarah: Or the blocker... [00:10:58] Jason: that would be really bad.  [00:10:59] Sarah: Or a defensive lineman? No way. How about the water boy?  [00:11:02] Sarah: No.  [00:11:03] Sarah: Why would you ever do any of that? Right?  [00:11:04] Sarah: So people who are like, they're like, oh my God, no. So are you going to see the star quarterback doing anything other than his job?  [00:11:13] Jason: No.  [00:11:14] Sarah: Never. Never. No.  [00:11:15] Jason: That's actually a really great analogy.  [00:11:18] Sarah: I know. I'm really smart sometimes. So there's...  [00:11:21] Jason: you're really smart all the time, and you know this.  [00:11:24] Sarah: I do know this. [00:11:24] Jason: Don't pretend you're humble. [00:11:26] Sarah: Well, I'm the most humble of all of the Zodiac signs.  [00:11:30] Jason: Yeah me too. I'm super humble too.  [00:11:31] Sarah: No, I'm the most humble though.  [00:11:33] Jason: You're way more humble than me.  [00:11:34] Sarah: I'm more humble than all of...  [00:11:36] Jason: you're the most humble ever.  [00:11:37] Sarah: As Scorpios, we all are. Okay, guys. Yeah. So anyway, if you're going to have your quarterback doing anything other than that, like that would just be silly. It would just be stupid. So if you were watching TV and that's what your team did while you were watching...  [00:11:52] Jason: yeah.  [00:11:52] Sarah: And it's like a playoff game. And that's what happens is you're like, why is my quarterback, what are you...? You wouldn't even believe your eyes. But then that's what you are doing in your business is you are taking your sales person, your star sales person, and you're making them do other stuff. So it works the same way. It's divide and conquer. That's like football teams do this. That's why it's not just a free for all when you get on the field, it's like, all right guys, just figure out how to, no. Yeah, they're specialists. They divide and conquer. Your business is the same thing.  [00:12:22] Jason: That's a great analogy. Cool. So it's super obvious in sports, like you've got some guy, man, he could throw it anywhere on the field. Look how accurate he is. He's not super big, but man, he can really throw it. Maybe we should have this guy just be a kicker. Yeah. That would like, that'd be crazy, but somebody's really amazing kicking the ball.  [00:12:39] Sarah: Some of you guys would lose your freaking minds if you saw that happen in a game.  [00:12:42] Jason: Right? But then you're doing it in your business! [00:12:44] Jason: You do it in your own business. You're doing it in your business. They're like, well, they could do both and maybe it'll save money and they can kind of do two things, and you wonder why the business is struggling or not growing. So we need to make strategic hires. We need to be make careful hires. [00:12:56] Jason: We need to get the right personality fit, skill fit, culture fit. We talked about the three fits on previous episodes, but you also want to make sure that personality fit, they are a really great personality fit for that particular role, and you're not trying to hire them for two. All right. Anything else we need to say about this? [00:13:11] Sarah: I don't think so. We're going to go eat.  [00:13:13] Jason: Cool. So if you have felt stuck or stagnant and want to take your property management business to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com. Also, join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. [00:13:34] Jason: We'd really appreciate it. Until next time, remember, the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.

Things don't always go as planned in life and in business. It's important for property management entrepreneurs to be able to roll with the punches. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss a recent experience where they were forced to pivot and adapt over and over again. You'll Learn [01:58] The Original Plan [05:31] How a Winter Storm Distrupted a Business and Family Trip [08:52] Moral of the Story: Be Prepared [11:08] Your Plan is Not Always the Right Plan for You Tweetables “Moral of the story is be prepared.” “This is how businesses work. Your best plan is sometimes going to fail and you're going to have to come up with a new way of doing it and you're going to have to adapt.” “There may be a reason that things are not going the way that you wanted them to go right now.” “ The only time that you won't have your breakthrough is if you quit.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: There is a bigger plan out there for you, and there may be a reason that things are not going the way that you wanted them to go right now. [00:00:09] Sarah: There may be a reason that you're not experiencing the results that you thought that you would at this stage in the game.  [00:00:17] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the #DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:35] Jason: DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:54] Jason: At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull. Now let's get into the show. Alright. [00:01:16] Jason: So, today we are recording this episode at, what time is it now?  [00:01:22] Sarah: It is almost midnight.  [00:01:23] Jason: It is late. On Monday. And this will go live or be streamed later. And so if you're watching this, thanks for watching. And we're not actually like real time live at this moment, but it's because we had to change things up and make different plans.  [00:01:42] Sarah: Live in the moment, we're probably still in the car.  [00:01:45] Jason: Yeah, so we will be driving tomorrow during our podcast episode. So we wanted to record this episode real quick so we can get one out. And in today's topic, we're just going to share a little bit of our adventure. And, you know, the moral of the story will be things don't always go according to plan. [00:02:03] Jason: So.  [00:02:04] Sarah: Sure don't.  [00:02:05] Jason: Alright, so, where do we start?  [00:02:08] Sarah: Alright, well, let's do quick synopsis. Where are we right now? Ohio, I think? I'm pretty sure we're in Ohio.  [00:02:15] Jason: I think so.  [00:02:16] Sarah: I think it's Ohio is the right answer. So, we've been to, in the last few days, we left on Friday, we've been to Texas, we've been to two days in Tennessee, we accidentally went to Kentucky, now we're in Ohio, tomorrow we're going to Pennsylvania. [00:02:30] Sarah: So, I think that's five states. Five states in five days. It's a great time. So, we're driving from Texas to Pennsylvania. It's supposed to be a straight shot, up like this. And it's this crazy record breaking winter storm, and we're driving through some of that. We're missing the big part of it. [00:02:51] Sarah: So we had to adjust our route. So our plan, this was our plan, was to leave on Friday. We're going from Texas to Memphis, Tennessee. Then the next morning, we were going to go to Graceland. We did do that, and then we spent some time in Nashville that evening. And then from Nashville, we were going to go to Morganstown, West Virginia, and then from there, drive into Dallas, Pennsylvania. [00:03:18] Sarah: So, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, we were supposed to get to Pennsylvania on Monday, which is tonight, we are not in Pennsylvania. We are, I'm pretty sure, somewhere in Ohio, past Akron. And where, what's the name of this?  [00:03:32] Jason: Youngstown.  [00:03:33] Sarah: Youngstown, near Youngstown. That's where we are, right now. And so that was our plan. And then because of this crazy storm, we were leaving Nashville. We left Nashville. Roads were fine. Then all of a sudden, a little bit of rain. That was okay. Then, snow. And that was awful. And we were trying to get from Nashville, Tennessee up to Morgantown, West Virginia. Did not happen. Not even close. So we were going to stop in Lexington, Kentucky for lunch around like 3 o'clock or 3:30. That was not the plan. We ended up staying in Kentucky because it took us so long to get to Kentucky because of the crazy storm that we then had to stay overnight in Lexington and then reroute. So we were going this way and now we're going that way.  [00:04:31] Jason: So do you want to share why we're doing a road trip? [00:04:34] Jason: Which is crazy to do.  [00:04:36] Sarah: It's crazy to do. I know, right? I could have flown there in a day. So we're driving my car that I've owned for a couple years now. I'm driving to Pennsylvania, and I'm giving the car to my mom as a gift. She has absolutely no idea.  [00:04:52] Jason: It's a surprise.  [00:04:53] Sarah: That this is happening. [00:04:54] Sarah: I don't think she watches the podcast.  [00:04:56] Jason: No. Probably not.  [00:04:56] Sarah: Hopefully it's safe. But I'm gifting the car to my mom. I want her to have a nice car, and a reliable car, and not have to worry about things. So, I'm gifting her the car. She has absolutely no idea. Coincidentally, it's also in a couple of days, my brother Jason's birthday. [00:05:14] Sarah: So, shout out to Jason. Happy early birthday. We love you. And we're going to do this little trip. We're going to see my family for a little bit. We're going to go out to dinner for my brother Jason's birthday. Give my mom a car, and then fly back home and we are running an event. So that's why we're doing all of this in the first place. [00:05:31] Sarah: The whole crazy part of the story here is when we left Nashville, we were trying to get to Morganstown. It was insane on the road. Just wildly insane. Like snow, ice, there was a mix, there was sleet. We were going like 40 miles an hour. I was just happy to be moving. We saw multiple cars that had run off the road. [00:05:58] Sarah: We saw a couple of tractor trailers that we're in accidents. We saw a few accidents. We were almost in a few accidents ourselves. And this trip is not at all going as planned. We had to move our flight, and then move our flight again, and then move our flight a third time. So then we, last night we almost gave up on this whole thing. [00:06:18] Sarah: I was going to quit and just leave my car in Cincinnati, fly home. back to Texas and then come back and finish the second leg of this trip a second time. Jason woke up this morning and he said, "I think we can do it, babe. I think we can do it." So here we are, but this is not...  [00:06:35] Jason: We were not prepared for this storm. [00:06:37] Jason: This car had pretty bald tires, which was... we were not ready.  [00:06:43] Sarah: No.  [00:06:43] Jason: Yeah. So after sliding off the road a little bit, twice, yeah, on a freeway.  [00:06:50] Sarah: On a freeway.  [00:06:51] Jason: On a highway. Yeah.  [00:06:52] Sarah: And car is supposed to be heading in this direction, and then it turned in.  [00:06:57] Jason: And we were just off to the side, so we were able to get back on the road safely both times. [00:07:02] Jason: Thank goodness. Yeah. And not get hit by a tractor trailer.  [00:07:05] Sarah: Yeah, we didn't get hit by anything. The car didn't get damaged. We are safe. And to that I can only thank God. The whole time I was praying, our fathers, I was saying Hail Mary's, our fathers, the whole time. I was just praying to God and God took care of us made sure that we were safe made sure the car is safe, made sure that we got where we were going, made sure we didn't get stranded in the car because we saw a couple people stranded.  [00:07:30] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:31] Sarah: It was scary. [00:07:31] Sarah: It was really scary.  [00:07:32] Jason: We eventually pulled off and went and found a tire store  [00:07:36] Sarah: Yeah, we were going to continue out there for a while.  [00:07:38] Jason: Got new tires.  [00:07:39] Sarah: And something told me it might have been God telling me like "go, you need tires. Go get tires." So I said to Jason, I said, "Can you find...?"  [00:07:47] Sarah: Can you find? No.  [00:07:49] Jason: I wanted to get some better tires on that car, for sure. [00:07:51] Sarah: So, I said, "is there a tire place that's like, nearby, that's open right now, that we can go to right now?" So we did. Took a little pit stop detour, but it was very well worth it. I just don't think we would have made the rest of the trip in one piece.  [00:08:06] Jason: The first tire store we went to was closed.  [00:08:08] Sarah: Yeah. Like it wasn't even plowed to get to it. They were closed. The third one was a tread. So we got new tires. That's good. The guy at the tire store, what did he tell you? The tread level was like a four. It's real, it's really bad.  [00:08:21] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:21] Sarah: It was real bad. Yeah. So, that was fun.  [00:08:23] Jason: So We got fresh tires. Then the car drove really well. [00:08:27] Jason: Plus we had pretty much made it through the worst of the weather, which we had planned. Because there were two ways we could go. The northern route had less weather, so.  [00:08:39] Sarah: Yep. That's why we're in Ohio.  [00:08:41] Jason: So.  [00:08:41] Sarah: And not through West Virginia.  [00:08:43] Jason: Yeah, we'd probably be in a very terrible spot if we had gone the wrong way. [00:08:47] Jason: So.  [00:08:47] Sarah: Yeah. We'd be off on the side of the road frozen like popsicles. Oh gosh. You guys would never hear from us again.  [00:08:52] Jason: So moral of the story is be prepared. Make sure you're prepared. Have a plan. And so we've done lots of plans and changing of plans and so this is part of life. And this is how businesses work. Your best plan is sometimes going to fail and you're going to have to come up with a new way of doing it and you're going to have to adapt. And so one thing entrepreneurs, we are good at is adaptability. We figure it out cause we have to, and we adapt. And so we've adapted a lot today. [00:09:23] Jason: And yesterday. The last couple days. Yeah, the last couple days.  [00:09:25] Sarah: We had a plan, we changed a plan, we changed that plan, we changed a plan again. We just keep changing it.  [00:09:30] Jason: And that causes us. We're just rolling with the punches. That causes us to have to adapt in business. So here we are recording a podcast. [00:09:36] Jason: Here we are.  [00:09:36] Sarah: At midnight.  [00:09:37] Jason: In a hotel room.  [00:09:37] Sarah: Which Jason did not want to do.  [00:09:39] Jason: No. No. I was like, we don't have to do anything that we don't want to do. We don't have to do this.  [00:09:44] Sarah: No. And I said, we are not recording a podcast live from the car because we might die. No.  [00:09:49] Jason: We're not going to do that.  [00:09:49] Sarah: We might die live on camera. [00:09:51] Sarah: Yeah, that would be...  [00:09:52] Jason: All right. So hopefully some of you got some value from this. If you do not have a good plan for your business, then that's something that we can help you with here at DoorGrow, help you come up with a plan, and help you adapt to some of the things that are getting thrown at your way. [00:10:09] Jason: This is why we mapped out the DoorGrow code, our roadmap, for some of the most common challenges and problems. So if you would like a copy of the DoorGrow code, just reach out to us. We'd be happy to give you one and tell you a little bit about how we might be able to help you and hear about your challenges. [00:10:24] Jason: So reach out to us. You can check us out at doorgrow.Com or go to our website or join our free Facebook group by going to doorgrowclub.Com. Make sure to answer the questions. We reject 60 to 70 percent of the applicants that try to join that group. So it's only for property management business owners. [00:10:44] Jason: So if you own a property management business or seriously planning on starting one, then you can request access to that group. Make sure to answer the questions. We would love to have you inside. And that's it.  [00:10:55] Sarah: No, that's not it. No.  [00:10:56] Jason: Oh, there's more.  [00:10:57] Sarah: That wasn't it. I said, what are we going to talk about this episode? [00:11:00] Sarah: I told you what we're going to talk about, then we just... So.  [00:11:03] Sarah: It's not the end of the episode. Surprise! A little bit more. But wait, there's more! [00:11:07] Jason: But wait, there's more.  [00:11:08] Sarah: So for those of you that do have a plan, and you're like, "yeah, no, I definitely have a plan. This is not applicable to me," we had a plan going into this as well. [00:11:17] Sarah: So, when you have a plan and life does not work out the way that you planned, and things don't work out the way that you thought that they would, and you're going through things and you're trying to figure out, you know, "what am I doing wrong? And why isn't this working? And like, why is this so hard? I don't understand why it's not happening the way that I wanted it to happen," and why it's just maybe not happening at all... [00:11:40] Sarah: or maybe it's happening, but it's just so slow, and it's so hard, then you just need to know that sometimes there's a bigger plan in place for you somewhere. And if you're religious, you might believe that God, or the universe, or fate, or whatever you might want to call it. There is a bigger plan out there for you, and there may be a reason that things are not going the way that you wanted them to go right now. [00:12:07] Sarah: There may be a reason that you're not experiencing the results that you thought that you would at this stage in the game. Just like when we thought we would go to West Virginia. Had we actually gotten to West Virginia, we'd be stranded there for sure, because they are getting hammered with snow right now. [00:12:22] Sarah: So the whole, like, West Virginia, D. C. area Hammered with snow, and that was our plan. So I'm grateful, although it's a little crazy, I'm grateful that we didn't end up going that way. I'm grateful that there was a bigger plan in place for us. So just trust that you do have support when you reach out to people like your mentors, and if you're in the DoorGrow Mastermind, there are so many resources for you, including property managers who are in the exact same spot that you are in. [00:12:56] Sarah: They've been there. They've done that. They've experienced everything. So leverage the resources that you have available to you. Know that there's support and know that everything is unfolding exactly the way it's supposed to for you in this exact moment. And you will have your breakthrough. The only time that you won't have your breakthrough is if you quit. [00:13:14] Sarah: See, and now we're done.  [00:13:15] Jason: Good words. Good stuff, Sarah. All right.  [00:13:18] Sarah: All right. We're going to go to bed now.  [00:13:20] Jason: Yeah. Get some sleep.  [00:13:22] Sarah: Yep.  [00:13:22] Jason: So until next time, to our mutual growth. Hope you all crush it. Bye, everyone. [00:13:27] Jason: you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:13:54] Jason: At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Many of our property management business owner clients are focused on hiring or restructuring their teams right now. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the most important parts of the hiring process and offer a little bit of “tough love.” You'll Learn [04:39] 1. Finding the right person for the role [11:04] 2. The importance of training your new hire [24:41] 3. Implementing accountability for your team [30:20] Review: what does the initial training period look like? Tweetables “We need to be clear on what results we're expecting.” “Any ambiguity or fuzziness, then you're going to get fuzzy outcomes.” “You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet.” “If you skip onboarding or if you don't have a very solid onboarding and training process, it's going to cause just so much friction.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet.  [00:00:09] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently than you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners, and their businesses. [00:00:53] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:11] Sarah: All right. [00:01:11] Let's do it. Before we do anything, we have an announcement for those of you that have not yet heard. Our foster dog Hans has been officially adopted. So we didn't do a podcast since he was adopted. So this is our first podcast that we don't have Hans kind of hanging out in the background. And I miss his little face, but he has an amazing family. [00:01:32] Jason: I miss Hans. I don't- [00:01:35] Sarah: love him so much.  [00:01:37] Jason: I don't miss him chewing my stuff in my office, but I do miss his little face as well. All right. Yes. Yeah, so he's adopted All right So the topic today and if you want to check that out, you can go to doorgrow.Com right at the top. There's dogs click on that see all our stories. Maynard got adopted. [00:01:55] Sarah: Maynard is adopted. Yeah, he now lives in California.  [00:01:59] Jason: This dog was like on death's door multiple times. Well, many times. Now he's living it up with a wealthy dude.  [00:02:06] Sarah: Who just fell in love with him.  [00:02:07] Jason: Guy in California.  [00:02:08] Sarah: Maynard just captured his heart, loved him so much and wanted to provide him an amazing life, so. [00:02:15] Jason: He's got a new name.  [00:02:16] Sarah: He's Bodhi.  [00:02:17] Jason: Bodhi.  [00:02:18] Sarah: Bodhi. So he's now driving around in a convertible in California. That's one of the pictures they put on there. Oh!  [00:02:25] Jason: All right. So  [00:02:25] Sarah: Maynard has a great life now, too.  [00:02:27] Jason: So you can check that out at doorgrow.com/dogs. All right. So our topic today that we're going to be chatting about you said that it came up a few times in You know this week with some of our clients dealing with some new team members We've got we're doing helping a lot of people with hiring right now. [00:02:45] Sarah: Oh my goodness so many. I built so many DoorGrow Hiring accounts in the last week.  [00:02:49] Jason: Yeah, so we're setting up this hiring mechanism and machine and system so that people can have some consistently good hires. But that brings us to kind of the next challenge. So what have you been hearing?  [00:03:00] Sarah: Okay, so one client asked me, he's about to hire. [00:03:05] He's going through the hiring process. So he doesn't have anybody lined up yet, but he's It's about to start this whole process. And he had asked me, "Hey, what about expectations for when they start when they come on?" And specifically this is a BDM. The second instance of this happening this week is a client who has already hired and his BDM is now about 60 days in. [00:03:31] And he sent me a message yesterday and he said, "Hey, listen, I really need to talk with you before the end of the month. I need to make a decision on my team." So I said, okay, let's. Let's figure out what's going on? And he said "yeah, I'm kind of pissed because my BDM is like 60 days in, and last month he didn't do anything at all. And then this month he started like he hasn't closed anything yet," and by he didn't do anything at all, what he means is he didn't close anything.  [00:04:00] Jason: Okay. Not that he wasn't working. No deals yet.  [00:04:01] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Not that he wasn't working. He was working. And this month now is his 60 day mark and he hasn't closed anything, but he's, you know, making calls and he's starting to, you know, get some things kind of ready and warmed up in the pipeline. [00:04:16] He, he said, "man, should I just let him go? Like, is he just not the right person? I feel like it's 60 days, like, I should see some results at this point."  [00:04:26] Jason: Okay.  [00:04:26] Sarah: So I'd like to, I'd really like to talk about that. And this is going to be, whatever episode this is "Sarah's Tough Love episode." So here it is. [00:04:35] Jason: Got it. Okay, I mean, let's get the basic stuff out of the way, right? First, we need to know that we have the right person. So, we need to know what those expectations are. So, that's where we define that. Usually, we call them R docs, but in this ultimate job description. So, we need to be clear on what we're looking for. [00:04:51] We need to be clear on what results we're expecting. We need to be clear on, you know, what outcomes we're hoping for and they need to be clear on this, right? Like if we're bringing somebody in, they need that clarity. So if there's anyone listening and there's any ambiguity or fuzziness, then you're going to get fuzzy outcomes. [00:05:09] And those aren't good, right? And so there needs to be at least, and you need to be on the same page. Literally, the way we do that is with a page called an RDoc. And so you make sure you're on the same page. And all those young Gen Z people, notice how I used the word literally, correctly like it's an actual page. [00:05:28] Sarah: I was just thinking that.  [00:05:29] Jason: Stop saying the word literally. It drives me fucking nuts. So, all right.  [00:05:33] Sarah: Literally.  [00:05:34] Jason: I literally, like if, yeah, nobody's confused about it being figurative, then don't, you don't need to say the word.  [00:05:41] Sarah: I literally died yesterday when I read that text.  [00:05:43] Jason: No, you would be dead. [00:05:45] You would actually be dead. All right. So, Now the next piece is we need to make sure we've got a person that fits that job description, right? They actually are the right personality. Well, let's talk about the three fits real quick. They have to match all three or they're not going to be a good BDM. [00:06:01] Sarah: Or it's never going to work out. And it doesn't matter if it's a BDM, an operator, a property manager, an assistant, a maintenance coordinator. It doesn't, name the role, doesn't matter.  [00:06:10] Jason: So, first, they have to be the right personality for the job or they'll never be great at it. They'll never be motivated to do it. [00:06:18] You bring in somebody to be a BDM, for example, and they're not the right personality to go out and want to talk to people and connect with people and network and that's not fun for them, they're always going to resist it. They're going to avoid it. They're going to do a bunch of time wasting stupid activities They're going to train everything else other than what really should be done, which is to go connect with people and have conversations. So they're going to be like "well I'm trying some marketing thing and i'm trying this thing and like and-"  [00:06:47] Sarah: "I sent 5,000 emails I don't know why none of them came back." [00:06:51] Jason: "We did direct mail to, like, 7,000 owners." [00:06:56] Sarah: I've heard that and it's because this is a true example. "I sent 5,000 emails." [00:07:00] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:01] Sarah: So essentially you did nothing. That's great. Right. Good to know.  [00:07:05] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:05] Sarah: Thank you.  [00:07:06] Jason: Lots of emails, right? So. So,  [00:07:09] Sarah: you know how many junk emails we get in a day? What happens when you get junk email? [00:07:13] Do you open it? Do you read it? Do you respond to it? No. That's what you just did to somebody else.  [00:07:19] Jason: Yeah. It lacks depth. All right. So we can get into tactics later, but they need to match the personality for the role. Which means they would love succeeding at this. They would love doing it. They would enjoy it. [00:07:32] They get some fulfillment out of it. And so that's personality fit. They need to be the right the right culture fit, which means they need to actually believe in your business and in you and in the product. They have to believe in this. You cannot sell effectively if you lack belief. And that goes for everybody on the team. [00:07:53] Like, if your operator isn't a believer in you or the business, they're not going to want or care to make sure that it runs well for you. If your executive assistant isn't, you know, a believer in you or shares your values, they're never going to do things in a way that makes you feel safe or that you trust them. [00:08:09] Cultural fit means they do it the way that you would want it done, that they share your values. The big clue we talked about this at our last jumpstart event where we had clients and somebody had a team member. And I just asked, I said, well, do you feel better when they're around? [00:08:25] Do you feel calmer when they're around? And they were like, no, I'm like, yeah, then they got to go.  [00:08:30] Sarah: He said, oh, well, a lot of our communication we do over the phone because that's better.  [00:08:36] Jason: Because there's such a high degree of conflict.  [00:08:37] Sarah: Jason says, better than what? Awful?  [00:08:40] Jason: Yeah, and then he laughed. [00:08:41] Everybody laughed in the group and he was like, well, yeah.  [00:08:44] Sarah: Well, I can't talk to this person in person. I can't be around them. Because when we're around each other, there's too much conflict. It's just too, it gets, yeah, it gets too feisty. Well, that's not good.  [00:08:55] Jason: Yeah, that means that person's not a good fit for that person for that particular client. [00:09:00] Sarah: And let's be clear. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with this particular person. No, it doesn't make them a bad person It doesn't mean, you know, all the they'll never succeed No, it just means that they are better suited in a different environment That's all. It means not everybody like when you're dating, you don't want to date everybody. You want to date people that you like generally and there are certain people that you like and there are certain people that you just don't mesh well. The businesses work the same way.  [00:09:31] Jason: Yeah. They've got to match your values. Because regardless you get somebody that's amazing BDM, for example, or an amazing operator for your business, they don't share your values, you'll never trust them. Like you just can't. And then the third fit is skill fit. So they have to have the skill or the ability or the intellectual capacity to learn and develop this skill quickly. And so if they don't, then you'll invest a bunch of energy into trying to train them and they're just too stupid to get it. [00:10:01] Or they just can't figure it out or maybe you hire somebody and they've got bad habits or they can't adapt. So they need to have that skill fit. They got to be all three or they're not going to be a good fit. So let's assume if we've helped them with DoorGrow Hiring, we focus on these three fits. [00:10:18] We have a whole hiring mechanism. Make sure these generally go well.  [00:10:22] Sarah: Yeah. So I can tell you, I don't think that's any of those are the problem.  [00:10:26] Jason: This person. Yeah. So in these situations, the person is the right fit. Yeah, usually that's the problem is they're not even getting the right person. [00:10:33] Most of y'all doing hiring, you're playing Russian roulette hiring and you don't have good fits.  [00:10:38] Sarah: Or it's, oh, this person had the experience and they came from such and such a Yeah, we hear that all the time.  [00:10:43] Jason: Yeah. Well, they're so experienced, and you feel uncomfortable around them and you don't trust them. [00:10:50] Yeah. So let's assume that, you know, with our clients, we've helped them find people that match the three fits. So now we're past that hurdle, that's very typical for most people, well, now, if it's not them, then who is it?  [00:11:04] Sarah: Okay. So here's where the tough love comes is. This is always my question. [00:11:08] And I'm very, very particular about what happens when you hire someone. You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet. I know it feels like you've gotten through it and now things are better and you should just be able to rely on that person. You're not there yet. [00:11:33] You will be. But you're just not, you're getting closer. You're just not fully there yet. And this is what happens a lot of times and they go, "Oh, okay, so I know I need to train this person and then I'll probably train them for like a week or two and then they'll just be good." [00:11:48] Absolutely not. So especially with a new person and it doesn't matter. Here's the other thing that I hear all the time, especially when somebody has the experience. Oh, well, you know, they have a sales background. They know how to sell. Great. They don't know how to sell for you. They don't know how to sell what you've got. [00:12:05] They don't know how to sell your values and your mission. They don't know how to sell that yet. They don't quite know. So you can take any salesperson in the universe and plug them into your business. Do they have the skill? Yes. Do they have the experience? Of course, but they still have to be trained. So having the experience does not mean "Oh, I don't have to train them," or, "oh, I don't have to train them as much." [00:12:32] You still have to train them a lot. There is a lot of training. And I hate to break it to you, but your life when you hire gets worse. So your life is bad, you know you need to hire, then you hire somebody, your life is now worse for a short period of time. The reason being is everything that you were doing, you still have to do it, and in addition, you now have to train somebody. So nothing has changed except that you just added another responsibility for yourself for the next 30 to 90 days. And there is no way around that with hiring. So if you hire and you fail the train, it is probably not going to work out. They will not get the results. [00:13:16] They will be frustrated. You will be frustrated. And at some point, you will get back into the cycle of, "Oh, well, now I guess I have to hire again." And then you live in hell forever. And it's not a good place to be.  [00:13:31] Jason: Yeah, so unless you hire somebody that is an amazing 'who,' right? There's a book called Who Not How it's a great book. [00:13:40] Unless you hire an amazing 'who,' like you bring in somebody, they're a sales trainer and an expert closer, and they've had tons of success and they can teach other people's sales, then I think, in any role, you have to assume you need an assumption that they're going to do it wrong. You have to start with that foundational assumption that they're going to do everything wrong. [00:14:01] If I hired an operator cold, they're doing it wrong, that I need them to install my operational system. If they are coming in as a salesperson in the business, I know they've been trained poorly because most sales training out there doesn't work anymore. There's a new model and a new way of selling and all the old stuff. [00:14:20] All the salesy guys that are sales trainers and sales coaches largely out there that push. Doesn't work anymore. It's outdated. And we don't push that stuff at DoorGrow. We've had to shift how we sell and we teach clients differently, even in the last year. And so my assumption is that they're going to do it wrong, but. [00:14:40] What I do assume is if they've done it well before, they have the ability to learn it. They have the ability to be a good operator. They have the ability to be a good BDM. But there needs to, you can't assume because they have done it before, that you're just going to rely on them to do it.  [00:14:56] Sarah: It's not plug and play. [00:14:58] "I hired them now they're just going to go do it and they're going to sell a bunch of stuff for me." No.  [00:15:02] Jason: Right. You're always going to be disappointed with most everybody if you come in with this assumption and they're going to feel unsupported and untrained and frustrated.  [00:15:13] Sarah: And they will inevitably either quit or get fired.  [00:15:16] Jason: Yeah, they'll go find a better situation.  [00:15:18] Sarah: No matter what, it will not work out. So here's a good moment to talk about Vendoroo.  [00:15:25] Jason: We'll talk in just a minute. We're going to talk about the onboarding and then some of the next steps that are really important. But quick word from our sponsor. If you're tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination, meet Vendoroo, your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish. Triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection, and coordination built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations, where every dollar is accounted for, and every task is handled with unmatched reliability Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at vendoroo.ai/doorgrow and experience maintenance done right. Okay. So check them out.  [00:16:10] Sarah: Speaking of doing things right, let's talk about what happens after you hire somebody.  [00:16:15] Jason: So the next step after you hire it, it has to be onboarding. There needs to be a good transition of bringing somebody out from the wild, this untrained wild creature, getting them to be something that is going to work inside of your business and fit you and fit what you want. [00:16:33] It's onboarding.  [00:16:34] Sarah: And if you skip onboarding or if you don't have a very solid onboarding and training process, it's going to cause just so much friction because I'm sure that you can think back to a previous job that you've had back when we all had job jobs, right? Have you ever just been hired and then kind of just, it's almost like train yourself or figure it out or, well, "I'm going to train you a little bit and then the rest is up to you. Well, what do you mean? I trained you for a whole day. Now I'm done." [00:17:06] "Oh, okay. So that's it. That's all the support I'm going to get. All right."  [00:17:10] have you ever been hired and then you don't even truly know what you're supposed to do? I don't know. I'm supposed to sell stuff.  [00:17:16] Jason: So here's the challenge. Here's the challenge with this with entrepreneurs, I've been thrown into job situations where there was terrible onboarding, terrible training, but I'm an entrepreneur personality type. [00:17:27] I then innovated, figured it out. And in some situations where at a job I then quickly was put into leadership and sort of managing others. But I had initiative. I had drive, like I had adaptability and I find entrepreneurs are incredibly adaptable and they make the mistake of assuming that everybody else is like them and they're not, they're like, "well, I would just figure it out and I would just ask enough questions. And if I didn't know something, I would just like, and so you can't assume that everybody is like you, if they were like you, they wouldn't work for you. How many of you would go work for somebody now? Like, you're unemployable. Like, let's be real. You would suck as an employee, probably, right? I'm unemployable at this point. [00:18:10] I'm not going to like sit around and let somebody just tell me what to do all the time and whatever. Right. But they're not the same as you. And if they were, then they might just, you know, start a business and leave your business. Right. So they're willing, if they're willing to work for you, you need to assume that they are not the same as you and that they need to be guided. They need support. Now that doesn't mean they can't learn or they're not adaptable. That's the skill fit Don't make the assumption that they'll just wing it and figure it all out unless they're just incredibly driven and incredibly patient And they're really a strong believer in you. [00:18:45] Some of them may do that, but you don't want to lose a good person simply because they feel like you don't care or you're not invested.  [00:18:52] Sarah: So this is There's so much time that goes into hiring and this is why I say don't waste the time that you've spent trying to find the right person and screening applications and interviewing and you put a whole bunch of time and probably effort into this and now you found the person, don't waste that opportunity. [00:19:18] So you need to onboard them properly. And what does that mean? We need to make sure that they have access to all of the systems that they're going to need. And that they know all of the systems that they're going to need. So, oh, what are the tools that I use? And then, do I know how to access it? And, do I know how to use it? [00:19:36] Right? Don't just assume that they'll figure out, Oh, well, this is how I use this phone system. Train them on it. Just show them that. So, there's got to be training for those sorts of things. If they're in sales, then, well, How do I sell? How do I reach people? What am I doing? Am I just doing the fit call, figuring that out? [00:20:00] Am I doing the full pitch? Am I closing? Am I setting them up for you and then you're going to close? What exactly am I doing? So train them on every single thing that they need to know. And I know this sounds so silly, but most people do not do this. So, what do I say? What do I do? Do I have a script? Do I just make it up? [00:20:22] Where do I find people? Am I in the office? Am I driving around? Am I, like, meeting people at events? What am I supposed to be doing all day? Because I'm brand new and I know nothing. So I'm completely reliant upon you to tell me what to do. So if they don't know, don't assume that they're just going to go and figure it out for you. [00:20:44] You have to show them and they have to shadow you. So for the first 90 days, this is all training. So when you hire any person, now some of them will pick it up a little bit quicker and some of them will take the full 90 days and either way it's all right. But just in your head, tell yourself it's going to take the full 90 days, right? [00:21:07] So in that 90 days. With any position, but especially in sales, don't expect them to come in and then just start selling. Oh, wow, they closed a bunch of deals. That was awesome. That's so cool. So there's kind of a ramp up period in every position, but certainly in sales. So shadowing is very important here. [00:21:31] They need to be all over you. All the time. So you need to meet with them every day.  [00:21:40] Jason: Or whoever is the person they're learning from. Sometimes it's not going to be you, eventually. In the beginning, it's always you, right? Which leads us to, like, availability and access is huge in the beginning. Like, if a team member doesn't have access to you, or you are unavailable because you're so busy. [00:21:58] They're going to feel stuck. They're going to feel unsupported. They're going to feel fearful in what they're doing. And so they need to have availability. This morning, I got a phone call. Like a call came in through Telegram. She called me and she's like, "Hey, I'm supposed to do a triage call right now? I have a scheduled appointment, and I'm trying to load Zoom and it's saying, it's waiting for the host. And I'm supposed to be the host." And I said, Then just call them, like pick up the phone, just call them. It's a quick call anyway, but it probably has to do with maybe you're not logged in or you click the link somewhere else and it doesn't realize you're logged in. [00:22:31] It happens to me sometimes. And she said, okay, yeah, I'll just call them. You know, if she were in that situation, this is her first triage call and she's like totally stuck and I'm like unavailable and she's freaking out, then she's going to feel, you know, people go through all sorts of emotions like anger, shame, guilt, fear, like, you know, stuff like this. And so we don't want to put our team members on this emotional rollercoaster of discomfort when everything's uncertain in the beginning. So that's important. Once we get through and the onboarding period, my general rule for onboarding is 90 days, like you said, then the first the first 30, I'm usually meeting with them maybe for an hour a day and I'm highly available.  [00:23:12] Sarah: Every day. [00:23:13] Jason: Yeah. [00:23:14] Sarah: Every day.  [00:23:15] Jason: That's usually the goal. And then after that, I might the next month, maybe it's a shorter time period every day if I'm over like consistently training them like a BDM especially. But otherwise, it might be that we start backing it off to maybe meeting weekly. And then depending on the role of whether or not I'm their supervisor directly, or if they're kind of owning a piece of the business, I then might back it off in the last month or eventually for the future to meet with them monthly to support them or whatnot. Like you kind of gradually step it down and it'll be obvious because you'll be getting on calls with them and like, Hey, what else should we talk about? What else do you need to know? What other questions you have or hey, I want to make sure you know this and you're going to start to run out of ideas. And they're going to start to not need you as much. And so then it's pretty obvious. Well, okay, then I guess we'll end this early. And that's a clue. Well, maybe we don't need to meet as often now. And they'll let you know. You know, do you think we need to keep meeting all the time like this? Like, well, it is helpful, but I don't know that we need an hour, maybe 30 minutes. Okay, cool. If we could just meet 15 minutes each day so I can get unstuck on a few things. Awesome. Right. So I meet with my assistant every day for a short amount of time. [00:24:26] But they're directly responsible to help and support me on things as an operator, like you run our weekly meeting and our daily huddles. Right? And so there's different things like there's sort of a cadence of structure, even regardless. So. I think after we get through onboarding and you've got good access, good availability, they feel supported and they're succeeding, they need to be getting results. [00:24:50] So I think the next step in my mind is there needs to be accountability. So if you're letting somebody just run and it's 60 days in and they are not succeeding or getting results, like cool, how many calls has the BDM made? "I don't know." Okay. How, like, how often have you met with them? "Well, you know, not often." If there's no part of meeting with them is to create accountability. [00:25:13] Like, Hey, what are you working on today? What do you feel like is next? What are you going to be doing? And to make sure that you're guiding them towards what they should be working on. So accountability means, you know, metrics if they're a bDM.  [00:25:26] Sarah: You need to know the metrics.  [00:25:28] Jason: How many networking events have they gone to in the last week? [00:25:31] How many phone calls and outreach have they made to potential referral partners or real estate agents? How many investors have they reached out or called? Are they on top of all of the follow up tasks and deals that are in the CRM? Do you have a CRM, right? Like there needs to be accountability. So there's a record. [00:25:50] Are they keeping notes? Are they, are the calls recorded? Can you listen to their calls to help them improve? Like if there's no transparency or accountability, there's almost no likelihood that they're going to succeed. Like it's because they're not being watched. So, basically, you're sending the signal, it doesn't matter. [00:26:08] You might get somebody that's an amazing self starter.  [00:26:11] Sarah: Go figure it out. Well, shit, I don't know. I guess I'll just make it up. But then when they make a decision and now their decision is different than your decision, now, you didn't tell them what to do. They just made something up and now you're not happy with the results. [00:26:28] Jason: Yeah, and they're lacking leadership and if they're lacking in your jobs to be the leader and they're lacking leadership, then they have no accountability and they have no, there's no transparency or visibility in what they're doing. You won't know. If what they're doing is working or not working. And so they'll just keep doing what's not working. [00:26:48] Because if they still get paid either way, that's a bad situation for most team members. Most team members will continue to get paid whether or not they're really performing at an exceptional level or a decent level. And with a BDM, their compensation should be directly connected to getting results, so they should really want it. [00:27:06] But if there's no accountability or transparency in the beginning, They're probably going to do a lot of stuff that isn't working and they're going to be frustrated and they  [00:27:15] Sarah: know why it's not working  [00:27:17] Jason: Yeah,  [00:27:18] Sarah: they'll come to you and say hey like I'm doing what you told me to do. You told me to make all these calls I mean all these calls. It's not working.  [00:27:26] Jason: And this is one of the ways in which DoorGrow can assist. [00:27:29] We can assist with this, right? Like they can show up to our Wednesday coaching call if they're a BDM focusing on growth. And the BDM can come to the call and say, Hey, I'm trying to do this and I'm getting this result. It's not the outcome I'm looking for. It's not working. Cool. Maybe you need to change this. [00:27:44] Or how are you saying it? Or what are you doing? Or could you send us a call recording? So all of these things that we teach, we know work. They can work. If it's not working, then it's obvious that it must be what they're doing. They're not doing it correct. They're doing it maybe in the wrong way or maybe they're not saying the right things or maybe their tone is off or maybe They are turning people off and they sound like a telemarketer or they're creating the sales ick or the sales resistance in people by how they're approaching people and these are easy changes These are little things that are very easy to tweak or change. [00:28:22] I mean just listening to one sales call from somebody, I can give them a lot of feedback and it's like they grow so much faster and quicker. And that's one way to add some visibility or accountability into the equation. But as a business owner, you need to know their metrics. They need to have metrics and be accountable for that, right? [00:28:40] They need to know what are the leading actions that I need to be taking that are going to get the business development results? What are the daily activities that I need to be doing in order to succeed? So that's my take  [00:28:53] Sarah: for sure. And I love listening to the call recordings because then sometimes when you're in the moment and this happens to all of us, sometimes when you're in the moment, you have a certain perception of how things went and then when you go back and you listen to it later, you'll catch something that you weren't aware of in that moment. [00:29:14] So maybe it's something that they said, maybe it's something that you said, maybe you. Didn't explain something the way that they understood it, but you'll hear things that you may have missed in the moment and Especially with salespeople, this is a training opportunity. So a lot of times people go "what am I supposed to train them on? Like they know how to use the CRM? they know how to use the phone system. They know what to do. They got to just go do it." Okay? Well Are we honing in skills? Are we improving things? Or are we just saying like, "Go do it! Go make a thousand calls this week!: Okay, well, if I make a thousand shitty calls  [00:29:53] Jason: Yeah, you're just wasting energy and you're wasting your leads or your opportunities. [00:29:58] Sarah: So there's always this fine tuning that we have to do. And very rarely are people able to do it for themselves. Sometimes they can go back and listen to a call recording and then go, Oh, you know what? I'm going to improve that. But a lot of times it's really good to have two people listening to the call recording for that reason. [00:30:20] And then the last thing that I do want to talk about is what does the 30, 60, 90 day period look like? So I always tell people in their first 30 days, this is nothing but training. This is deep training, you really do need to be meeting with them every day, not when it's convenient, not when you have time, not, "oh, well, I skipped that day because this happened." [00:30:42] Every single day, every day, they need to have the correct resources, the correct knowledge, the right support, the questions need to be answered, you need to be available to them. They need to have all of this because they're brand new. So a lot of times what happens is people hire somebody and it's like a little baby bird and then they push the baby bird out of the nest. [00:31:08] The bird can't fly yet because you didn't even teach it what its wings are, right? So we can't do that yet. So in the first 30 days, really expect nothing. Really, they just need to be training. If they close something in their first 30 days, that's awesome. Great! I mean, they should be doing the activities. [00:31:27] Jason: I expect work.  [00:31:28] Sarah: Yes,  [00:31:29] Jason: I expect to actually and work like if it's to make calls, I expect them in like a BDM should be making some outbound outreach and calls right away.  [00:31:39] Sarah: Absolutely.  [00:31:40] Jason: Otherwise, how are you going to know that  [00:31:41] Sarah: if it's going to, yeah,  [00:31:43] Jason: they shouldn't just be like, just learning. So it's like, I want to get them on the phone and get them making calls. [00:31:47] Sarah: No, but in sales, let's be really clear here. Training. This is hands on training. This is like trying to say, "Hey, I need to go learn how to drive a car. But I'm never actually going to get in the car. I'm going to meet with you on Zoom or I'm going to sit with you and you're going to tell me about how to drive a car." [00:32:03] No, honey, you gotta go get in the car. So, yes, you have to actually be doing it, doing the activities.  [00:32:09] That is training.  [00:32:10] Jason: There's no amount of manuals or videos you could read or watch that would teach you how to drive a car. You have to drive the car.  [00:32:17] Sarah: Yes. So, if they close something in their first 30 days, that's awesome, that's gravy, that's a bonus. [00:32:23] But sometimes people go, "oh man, it's been 30 days and I haven't closed anything. Like, man, they must suck." They're new. They're learning so much and when you implement a new thing, you're probably not going to be very good at it. Especially a new strategy or a new way of doing sales because the way that we teach our clients to sell is different. [00:32:43] It's different. We're not hardcore closing everybody. We're not doing that. So it's, everything is different. They don't have their bearings yet. They don't even have their footing and their foundations, right? So 30 days, if they close something, that's great. But I still, I want them to be training and I want them to be doing some sort of, you know, whatever it's going to be. [00:33:04] If you have them doing events or presentations or calls or a mixture of all of them, great.  [00:33:10] Jason: There should be progress. You'll see progress. And if that's the thing you don't want to tolerate somebody being in the business for 60 days, 90 days, and you're not seeing progress or action, and you're trying to push them. [00:33:23] If you're having to push somebody to do something. Probably they're not the right personality fit. If you feel unsafe with them doing things, and it makes you uncomfortable, how they're doing things, probably not a culture fit. They're not doing it according to your values. [00:33:36] The "how" they go about doing it is different than you. If they're just not doing the right things, then that's a training issue. Or they're just not intelligent enough to learn the skill. So that's a skill fit. Okay,  [00:33:48] Sarah: so then 60 days I do want to see some progress. They might close something. [00:33:55] They still might not it depends. I can't say yes or no Oh, they should definitely close. I can't you can't say that because everybody has their own time frame, right? And investors sometimes they work on their own time frames. You can't control that but I do want to see I want to feel like things are happening, and I want to feel like, Hey, we've got some stuff in the pipeline, we've got some stuff that I feel like might close. [00:34:20] If you say, Hey, what do you have that's about to close? Do you feel like anybody's close? And they go not really. Oh... [00:34:27] Jason: are they getting appointments? Are there relationships being built? Are there deals now kind of get in the pipeline at some of the earlier stages? Like you should start to see the sales pipeline mature and build. [00:34:37] Sarah: So then 90 days they've been doing that. Now they understand everything. They know what to do. They know how to do it. They've gotten their feet wet. They've now tested things and then also made some improvements. They're like, Oh, well, when I say it like this, it doesn't work. It doesn't resonate. [00:34:53] But if I say it like this, it's better. Oh I have to switch this and this, right? Now you're making those little tweaks, those little improvements. So 90 days, they should be able to close something at this point. And same thing with the pipeline. I need to see the pipeline moving forward. I need to see more being added in the pipeline. [00:35:11] I need to see them further along in different stages in the pipeline. Things need to start kind of really moving forward at this point. And then after the 90 days, Now, you get to push the bird out of the nest, right? Now, you're a baby bird, go push him. You should now have everything that you need to be able to soar, as long as we did our job. [00:35:34] But a lot of times, I get it, it's hard, because you're running a business, and you're an entrepreneur, and you're busy, and it's crazy. And now you want me to train somebody? Yep. Yeah. Because once they are able to do it for you, now you can relax into it. But if we skip the training, what's going to happen is you're going to go, man, they're just not getting me the results. [00:35:55] Or they might get frustrated and go, man, my boss sucks. Like they don't train me on. Anything, and it's just not, it's not a good place here. I know, I'm going to leave because I know that if I don't, then I'll eventually get fired. So regardless, they're going to leave. And then you're going to have to go, God, well now I have to go hire somebody. [00:36:11] And then you're going to hire somebody. And then you're going to be in this whole hiring cycle of hell for the rest of eternity. And that's not a fun place to be. It's not. It's really painful.  [00:36:21] Jason: Yeah, a lot of people wait until they're in pain to hire instead of hiring strategically with a plan or, you know, in advance. [00:36:29] And so once you get to the place where you need a new team member, and then you hire, and now you're going to have to, you're kind of shot in the foot, and you're going to have to like go backwards time wise, like then you're in a worse spot, like that's not the ideal place to be hiring. And then later you'll create more freedom you know, eventually, but yeah, you want to make sure that you are kind of aware of your capacity and starting to like get your hiring systems, get your new hires in place in advance before you need it. [00:37:01] And this is why it's super important to make sure you're making the right decisions in the business. So we have frameworks for how to decide what you need most in the business and frameworks for how to decide what the business needs most. So you're making healthy. financial hiring decisions because making wrong decisions that way can really hurt cash flow and can, you know, especially early in the business can really be dangerous. [00:37:22] So, well, is there anything else you'd say to maybe some of our clients or people that they've gotten a new hire. It's probably a good hire and they need to make sure they're doing their onboarding and taking care of this new hire correctly.  [00:37:36] Sarah: Yeah, get it on your calendar. Don't just say you're going to do it. [00:37:40] It has to be scheduled time where it's dedicated. And also, don't half ass it. Don't be like, oh yeah, I'm going to be on the phone with Joe while I'm like over here. They know. That's not dedicated. That does not feel good. We've all been on the receiving end of something like that. So, don't make people guess. [00:37:59] Don't make them figure it out. It's not going to work out well.  [00:38:03] Jason: Alright. That's our episode for today. So I think that this should be pretty helpful for some of our clients that are getting into new hires And hopefully it was helpful for a lot of you listening if you're struggling with hiring or building your team or systems or profit, all this relates to the people system in your business. You need people, planning, and process and that's our super system. If you're needing some help with this, reach out to DoorGrow and we can take you to a whole nother level by getting helping you get these systems installed and you'll have a business that you actually enjoy being in. So until next time to our mutual growth. [00:38:42] Bye everyone. [00:38:43] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:39:10] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Owning a business of any kind impacts your life and relationships. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts talk about marriage, relationships, and how these things correlate with having a property management business. You'll Learn [02:03] Owning a business impacts your relationships [07:45] You have to be selfish sometimes [11:10] Why people pleasing is harmful [14:13] Masculine and Feminine frames [24:51] Leveling up in business and your relationships Tweetables “In business, you don't want to be the needy, pleasy guy running a property management business, trying to please every tenant, trying to please every business owner.” “I think as a business owner, you, there is part of you that has to be selfish and you have to be comfortable with being selfish because there is a time and a place for it.” “If you do not take care of yourself, you are not going to have energy to then continue to take care of other people.” “Ironically, the more you are trying to please somebody,  the less they value you.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: In business, you don't want to be the needy, pleasy guy running a property management business, trying to please every tenant, trying to please every business owner.  [00:00:08] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:29] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS. Build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull the owners of DoorGrow.  [00:01:11] Now Let's get into the show.  [00:01:14] All right, so today's topic, we're going to chat a little bit about marriage. So let's talk about it. We're going to tell a little bit about marriage. Those that have followed my journey over the years have probably seen that I've been divorced. I've gone through struggles in marriage. I've learned things the hard way. Some of y'all probably been married forever like my parents. I have amazing parents and they were a great example of just loving each other from the beginning forever. [00:01:44] They've been married for, I don't know, like 50 years or something.  [00:01:48] Sarah: Almost. 49.  [00:01:50] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. I think  [00:01:52] Sarah: this year is going to be 47. So they're like going to be 50.  [00:01:55] Jason: I think they got married two years before they had me. So yeah.  [00:01:58] Sarah: They celebrate it though, but they're still in Australia.  [00:02:01] Jason: Yeah. So my parents, they just love each other. [00:02:03] But one of the things that I think it's been coming up a lot, I've been noticing a lot of clients as I go deeper with them and they kind of open up especially the guys like relationships are a struggle. It's a challenge. I think it's difficult. It can be difficult for entrepreneurs. I think it's difficult for the women entrepreneurs because in a lot of ways you have to kind of step into sort of a masculine frame to run a business. And that creates an interesting dynamic in a relationship. And this is in general. Some women out there, maybe you don't want a masculine guy. Maybe you don't want a guy that leads. Maybe you don't want a guy that initiates stuff. Maybe you don't want to be able to let your hair down after work and like have him kind of take the reins and like plan something and take you on a date. I think a lot of women do. A lot of women appreciate that. Even the ones that are running businesses and showing up in a masculine sort of frame and being kind of dominant in leadership and displaying these things, they would like to have somebody else take the lead. Is this accurate do you think or no?  [00:03:03] Sarah: Yeah, well. You think it's different.  [00:03:05] Jason: You've run your own business. [00:03:06] You've been kind of in that frame.  [00:03:08] Sarah: I'm a very masculine woman.  [00:03:11] Jason: Yeah, in some ways I think you've consistently since we've been together.  [00:03:15] Sarah: I look very feminine. I do it's deceiving. Yeah.  [00:03:19] Jason: Yeah, I think since we've been together, you've consistently stepped more and more into your feminine and I've stepped more and more into my masculine I think has kind of been a trend. [00:03:29] Would you say that's accurate?  [00:03:30] Sarah: It could be. I don't know. I think you've probably more recently been focused on that. I can't say, I really cannot say, oh, I've ever been focused on.  [00:03:41] Jason: I don't think you've been focused on it. I just think.  [00:03:44] Sarah: I'm just living life.  [00:03:45] Jason: Yeah, you're just living life and this is the thing. [00:03:48] Sarah: I'm just going about shit, doing my thing.  [00:03:50] Jason: She's not as conscious of it probably because I think this is something that men, if you are the leader and leading, you should be conscious of this. And women, when men are kind of taking that leadership role, women respond to that, and it's natural. Like, I've noticed it in Sarah, she's not even probably super aware of it, but there's behaviors and things that have kind of shifted. [00:04:15] And so, the way it'll show up for a woman in this, in a relationship like that, as a man stepping more into leadership and into his masculine role, she will generally, over time, feel calmer. There'll be probably less fights, probably less explosions, you know, things like this. And the guy will be like letting go of some of the needy, whiny, pleasy, weak behavior that's kind of gross to women. [00:04:39] Does this sound accurate?  [00:04:40] Sarah: That is, yeah, that is gross.  [00:04:42] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:42] Sarah: To me, anyway, I cannot speak for all women.  [00:04:45] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:45] Sarah: To me, it's gross.  [00:04:47] Jason: Ironically, when women are showing up kind of more in a masculine frame, they sometimes bring that out in guys. Like the guys think, Oh no, there's a problem. I got to please more. [00:04:57] And so it kind of creates this weird, gross spiral in relationship. And so, which I've experienced in past relationships. Right. And so the man needs to kind of. shift and lead out of that. And so I've been noticing this in clients. And so, this is something that I've been paying a lot of attention to. [00:05:14] A lot of guys show up in a feminine frame because we've been raised by our moms. Maybe you had a loving mom. She took care of you. Maybe she didn't. And she wasn't really a great mom, maybe but either way, that feminine influence towards pleasing has a strong impact on the male psyche, which puts us into kind of a growing up with kind of a feminine frame. If we don't have a really strong sort of masculine walled stoic father, you know, and there's really great book I would recommend for men that want to kind of eliminate that feminine frame that they're carrying around. [00:05:49] It's called shattering the feminine frame by Jerr, J E R R. It's really hard to find, so you may have to search for it on Google, because if you search for it on Amazon, even though it's there, Amazon won't let you see it. I don't know why. It's super weird. You may not be able to find it. Sometimes searches on some of the books by Jerr don't show up when I search for them. [00:06:11] His main book that he puts out there, I can find, and then I have to go to the author, click on the author name, and then find his other books to find some of these books. I don't, it's really weird, but you might be able to find it through Google.  [00:06:23] Sarah: Maybe it's just you. It could be just you. It'd be an interesting test. [00:06:27] Maybe everybody else, even though.  [00:06:30] Jason: I bought multiple copies of the book and sent them to guys. So Jason gets blocked on everything. He gets himself blocked. I'm a little controversial. I get shadow banned all the time. It was something. I was definitely shadow banned on Twitter. My accounts aren't working, your whole Instagram account. [00:06:45] I have a political account on Instagram that's totally blocked and shut down. Like, I log into it, it blocks everything. I can't do anything. I can't even go to settings to, like, request help to support. Nothing. So, yeah. So, which probably might be why I can't find which probably means my ideas are actually correct. [00:07:04] So since we live in a world of control and censorship nowadays, all right, so that aside, so I think you know, to kill that needy sort of pleasing behavior, I think guys, this is really important. And it's important in business too, because in business, you don't want to be the needy, pleasy guy running a property management business, trying to please every tenant, trying to please every business owner. [00:07:30] And that was something you were very good at not doing in your property management  [00:07:34] Sarah: business. I don't give a shit about that at all. I [00:07:37] Jason: think you're like, what do I want my business to look like? How do I want to show? Yeah. Yeah.  [00:07:42] Sarah: Right. And I think it's, It, part of it is very selfish. And I think as a business owner, you, there is part of you that has to be selfish and you have to be comfortable with being selfish because there is a time and a place for it. [00:07:54] Now I am not sitting here telling you, be only selfish and only think about yourself all the time. No matter what, prioritize you and forget everything else, right? That is not what I'm saying, but there is a time and a place to be selfish and to really think about you. And if you think about it this way, there's a lot of people, like one of my, one of my very good friends in Pennsylvania she will just give and give and give and give to everybody. [00:08:21] She worries about her kids and she worries about her friends and she worries about her family and she worries about, it's like, she's like, so giving and like, I mean, she would literally give you the coat off of her back in the middle of winter if you needed it. I have watched her do it. And that is great. [00:08:42] However, if you do not take care of yourself, you are not going to have energy to then continue to take care of other people. And I tell her that all the time because she's just in this constant exhaustion. Like now it's manifesting physically. Now she's had like, she had health issues. She had like a heart problem. [00:09:02] She had all kinds of issues and it's because she's not prioritizing herself. She will go to do something for herself, but then something else pops up and needs her attention. And she's like, Oh, well, I can't worry about me. Now, I have to worry about this other thing. So there is a time and a place to be selfish, and you must take care of yourself first in order to then serve and take care of other people. [00:09:22] It's like, put on your own oxygen mask before helping other people. Because if you die trying to help your family, well now your family doesn't have you. When you could have just put on your own oxygen mask first. Yes? So there is a time and a place to be selfish. I think in my later years, especially after my, like, my divorce when I was, what was I, 28? [00:09:48] Yeah, I was 28. So, 28, I flipped my entire life upside down. All of it. Everything. I pretty much scrapped it all. Anything that wasn't serving me, anything that was toxic, anything that wasn't good for me, anything that didn't make me feel happy or bring me joy or make me feel loved and cared for, I said, fuck it. [00:10:10] Gone. Gone. So I cut off relationships with my biological father. I ended my marriage. I cut off a lot of friendships. I quit my job. I did all kinds of things. I was like, yeah, this isn't working like, and that was the end of it. But that was very much about, that was for me. I did that for me. [00:10:30] And up until that point, I wasn't really living for me. Yes, I was concerned about myself. I was always trying to take care of myself. But I was also always worried, Oh, well, who needs this? And who needs that? And, oh, you know, this person, you know, is kind of, it's always like in the back of your brain. [00:10:48] And after, after that, I made that change and that after that point was when I started my business, when I started my business, I'm glad that I didn't do this before I had that shift in my life because when I started my business, number one has to be me. If the business makes me miserable, then I'm doing something wrong. [00:11:07] So why do it like that?  [00:11:10] Jason: A lot of people are miserable in their businesses. They like, we see a lot of them. That's why a lot of people come to us. We can turn that around. Ironically, the more you are trying to please somebody, the less they value you. And so if you're like just bending over backwards trying to please tenants, they're going to treat you even more and more like garbage because you're showcasing and demonstrating in your language your behavior everything, "I'm low value." [00:11:37] I'm a doormat. Walk all over me. You might do that with owners. You might be displaying, Hey, I'm low value. I'm available whenever you need me. Your time is so much more important than my time. Interrupt me anytime. Here's my cell phone number. Right? And so by displaying that you're low value, you actually end up being treated worse and being perceived as worse. [00:11:58] And people respect business owners that are leaders and then are able to display strong behavior that they can lean into and that they can trust. You need to have a stronger frame or a more masculine frame if you are the leader of a business. Otherwise, people are not going to really trust, respect, or feel safe with you. [00:12:18] And so I think that Also, when we're in relationship and we're with somebody and I think that this is probably more true of women, a lot of women might throw me some shade for saying this, but as guys, I don't know what the major difference is. Maybe it's testosterone levels, whatever. Maybe it's just in our DNA, but we do not grow up feeling fear. [00:12:41] We just, we don't generally feel afraid of a whole lot of things. Like, most guys would never even think, like, am I safe if I go walk out on the street? Unless they're in a really shitty area, you know? But if I go out for a walk, I'm not concerned about my safety at all. I could roll down my windows and take a nap in my car, parked by the side of the road, and wouldn't even worry. [00:13:03] Women, I didn't realize this until later years, but women from.  [00:13:08] Sarah: Even going like for a walk by myself, no way, I'm taking my pitbull, like  [00:13:12] Jason: Yes.  [00:13:13] Sarah: Or I'm carrying.  [00:13:15] Jason: Right. Or some combination.  [00:13:18] Sarah: Something. There's no, there's no chance. Yeah,  [00:13:21] Jason: I mean even if I'm out of town, for example You'd like you get a little bit more concerned about things and your safety and stuff like that, right? [00:13:30] Sarah: See, I'm the type of person I'm like, I want like a fortress. I want like reinforced concrete like five inch, you know, like, maybe even 11 inch thick, like, walls, I want, like, a moat, I also like some sharks that we don't feed, like, ever, and then, you know, somebody might accidentally fall down. [00:13:49] I've been getting in, like, this is how I'm like, that would make me feel safe. I want like bulletproof glass. Give me the Cybertruck glass just everywhere. Like, that's like, this is what I need. I need like laser beams, like you see in museums. Like motion sensor laser beams that trigger like the SWAT team. [00:14:06] That's what I need, but I've watched way too many horror movies, admittedly, way too many for my own good.  [00:14:13] Jason: So regardless of your gender, masculine and feminine energy is always at play. And, Feminine energy generally is not going to feel safe without masculine energy nearby. [00:14:24] That's just generally how it works. Masculine energy creates that protection and safety. This will be true of your clients. So you'll need to show up somewhat in a masculine frame so that your clients can feel safe. feel safe with you. And that's what they want to buy. They don't want to buy property management, but they want to buy a safety and certainty. [00:14:40] They want to buy peace of mind. And so that certainty that you can display is more of a masculine energy or masculine frame. This is true of women that are in relationships. If they're not getting that from the man that they're with or around them, That sort of masculine frame, they're going to become, a lot of times, they become more nervous, more neurotic. [00:14:59] They're more concerned about things and more fearful. And especially if they have to then step into the masculine frame to take care of the guy that they're with because he's even more needy and pleasy and whatever and feminine than she is, then it's like, it creates this gross sort of I'm your mother type of dynamic, right? [00:15:17] And you don't want to be my mother, right? You don't want to be cleaning up after me and telling me what to do all the time.  [00:15:22] Sarah: I don't want to be anybody's mom.  [00:15:24] Jason: Yeah, exactly.  [00:15:24] Sarah: I am not cut out to be a mom, let's be honest. I'm just not, I'm just not good. Like my mom is the best mom in the world and then like, how do I measure up to that? [00:15:34] Like I can't compete with that.  [00:15:35] Jason: Well, I don't think it's a competition.  [00:15:37] Sarah: Everything is a competition.  [00:15:39] Jason: It's not really. [00:15:39] Sarah: You know nothing about me.  [00:15:41] Jason: It's not really competition. You don't need to compete with your mom, but you can take, you know, some of the good that you've got from her and the stuff that you don't want to apply or we learn from our parents. [00:15:51] We don't want to be like. We don't have to take that. Right. So, you know, I guess the takeaway from this episode maybe is men, check out that book, like step into a little bit more masculine role in your relationships, your wife will be calmer, she'll be more loving, you will definitely get more respect and you'll get more sex if you're showing up in a masculine frame. And it's your responsibility. Stop trying to change her. Stop trying to get her to be something different. Stop wishing she was nicer to you. Stop trying to focus on I need love and I need to please her and do things like that like Show up in a confident leadership position, like plan stuff, plan dates. [00:16:35] We're going on a date this weekend, right? We went on a date last weekend.  [00:16:40] Sarah: Round two.  [00:16:40] Jason: I messed up last weekend. I planned a date. I was so excited and took her out to eat. We went to go to where the date was, we were supposed to go watch a show. And it was closed, like, there was nothing there. And I was like, what? [00:16:54] And I checked and I had the date wrong. I had the date wrong. So what did I do as a leader? I found another date. So I quickly booked tickets, found tickets to a comedy show that was right there, downtown Austin. And then we went to that and we had a good time, right?  [00:17:08] Sarah: Well, that was when I rescued the bird. [00:17:09] Jason: Yes.  [00:17:10] Sarah: So here, let's talk about this. This is how crazy my life is. Jump out of a moving car because my husband wouldn't stop the car.  [00:17:16] Jason: Let's, let me explain this. I'm driving into a parking lot, there is a bird that has landed on my hood and it's just staying on there so I'm like, this is weird and I'm turning into a parking structure and I was barely moving. [00:17:30] I was slowed down or you would have hurt yourself but I'm like, she's like, I'm going to get out and I'm going to take care of the bird and because it had jumped off. And I was like, No.  [00:17:37] Sarah: It didn't. It tried to fly, like, it was on the hood. And it tried to fly a little bit and it, like, barely cleared, like, the roof of the car and I went, Jason, that bird is injured, I'm telling you, it's injured and he's like, okay. [00:17:51] And I'm like, stop the car, and he's like, what? I'm like, no, stop the car. I was like, I am not stopping the car. Yeah, he's like, I'm not stopping.  [00:17:57] Jason: There were, like, homeless people on the street, like, right outside there. Yeah, I know. Ghettos, they probably were all high on drugs, like, it was not a great area. [00:18:06] And she jumps out of the car and I have to then find a parking space because there's nowhere to park and I had to go up seven floors in this parking structure. I'm like, my wife is probably going to be dead by now, right? So I eventually get to the top floor, then I come down, I'm, like, so anxious because I'm, like, I need to protect this woman from her crazy bird saving, like, whatever. [00:18:27] Sarah: And actually, I had this dress on. And my high heels, and I'm running around trying to, like, scoop up. I'm like, it's okay, try to scoop the bird. And the bird, like, it can't really fly. It flew a little bit for, like, a couple feet, and then it, like, sank back down. And I'm like, oh no, it's injured. So I'm, like, chasing the bird, and the bird, like, hops around. [00:18:45] Like, it comes out of the parking garage, and it hops around to the corner. I don't know what's back there. So I'm just following, I'm like, come here, bird. And there's a man in the corner. who I can only think, my guess is, like, coke, I don't know. I don't know what he's doing, it's, I don't know, crack, whatever crack is, it's probably that. [00:19:03] So, I don't know, I'm not a drug expert, I've never been in narcotics, I don't know. But he's, like, in the corner and he's, like, doing, I was, like, okay, I'm just going to, like, not look at what's happening, cause I don't care, I'm just, Hi, I'm just getting the bird, I'm, like, don't, like, sorry don't mind me. [00:19:19] And yeah, he didn't like that. But I did get the bird, and then I didn't know what to do with the bird. So I have the bird now, I'm like, oh, what do I do now? So I was going to walk back to my husband and tell him to get in the car.  [00:19:33] Jason: Yeah, we were seven floors up. You had no idea where I was.  [00:19:36] Sarah: No, I didn't. I was just going to walk around until I found you. [00:19:39] But I had the bird in my hands. And I was going to go back to my husband and then say, like, I guess we have to figure out what to do with this bird. We have a bird now. But this woman, she was on the street and she's like, Oh, hi. She was like, excuse me, do you need help? And I said, I don't know. [00:19:54] Can, do you know what to do with an injured bird? And she said, actually, yes I do. And I said, Oh my God, thank God. Because I didn't know what I was going to do with this bird. And she said, Oh, you have to take it to whatever on earth she said. And she's like, I can do that because I guess she works there or something. [00:20:11] So she's like, oh, I'll take it in tomorrow. She's like if you give me the bird So then she had this whole bird probably ate  [00:20:18] Jason: the bird. She's probably some homeless person that ate the bird.  [00:20:21] Sarah: He was not a homeless person. It was a couple.  [00:20:23] Jason: Okay.  [00:20:24] Sarah: There was a couple they had a dog.  [00:20:26] Jason: Okay, meanwhile, I'm coming down an elevator. [00:20:30] It lets me out on the first floor of this parking structure, does not let me into the parking structure. There's no, like, it just exits the building. So I exit the parking building and it locks me out of the building. So I can't even go back in and I'm like trying to find her. I have no idea where she is. [00:20:49] And so I'm calling her and yeah  [00:20:53] we ended up talking, didn't we?  [00:20:54] Sarah: No, I called you.  [00:20:55] Jason: Yeah, you called me.  [00:20:56] Sarah: Then so the lady takes the bird and now I have no bird, which is great and the bird is safe. And now I'm thinking, okay, let me just, I didn't realize it was as tall. I really did not know that the building was that tall. [00:21:08] So I figured, Oh, there's probably like three levels, whatever. I'll just walk around and find the car. It won't be hard. Well, I'm walking around and I'm realizing, Oh, okay. Well, this just keeps going. Yeah. And you  [00:21:18] Jason: were wearing the worst shoes on the planet.  [00:21:19] Sarah: Worst shoes. I was wearing a  [00:21:21] Jason: Okay. Let me explain this. [00:21:23] They can't see your outfit right now. Sarah looks like sex on wheels. Like, her outfit is hot. Like, this is a hot dress. This is like a form fitting store dress. I bought this for her. She looks really good in this. Sorry. And she's wearing these high heels. [00:21:39] She's wearing these high heels like Louboutin, whatever they're called. And they're like, did I buy you those?  [00:21:46] Sarah: That pair? Yes.  [00:21:48] Jason: Okay. Yeah, I bought her these shoes and they're wicked uncomfortable.  [00:21:51] Sarah: They're so uncomfortable.  [00:21:52] Jason: Like whenever she wears them on a date.  [00:21:53] Sarah: Christian Louboutin, I have to say something about him. [00:21:55] He either hates women or he has no idea what women's feet are like.  [00:21:59] Jason: I don't know, but he's laughing. Or both. He's laughing all the way to the bank, whatever. Because they're not cheap. So, she's wearing these shoes that she can't even walk around in. And you're going to, there's no way she's going to go up seven floors of parking. [00:22:12] Sarah: I was on the third floor.  [00:22:14] Jason: Yeah.  [00:22:15] Sarah: Yeah, I got to the third floor and then I realized, oh, okay, so then I called you.  [00:22:19] Jason: Yeah, and then she eventually finds me. We get. You need to go back up to the car because I didn't grab your purse. Because  [00:22:26] Sarah: he left my purse in the car.  [00:22:28] Jason: Because I should have been psychic and known that she needed me to grab her purse. [00:22:32] Right guys. And so we go back up, but he had to let me back into the building because I was locked out and their thing wouldn't work to let me back in with my parking pass thing. So she comes down to the first floor, opens it up, lets me in. We begin in the elevator, we go back up the top floor. [00:22:47] I'm like, what were you thinking? And she's like, what were you thinking? You didn't grab my purse. You left my purse. I'm like, you're way more important than the purse, woman. And you're like going around crazy homeless people and like trying to save a bird.  [00:23:03] Sarah: It was saved.  [00:23:04] Jason: So  [00:23:05] Sarah: It was saved.  [00:23:06] Jason: Okay, good job. You did it. [00:23:08] Good job. You're like  [00:23:09] Sarah: We've been saving lots of animals.  [00:23:11] Jason: I think there's a Bible verse where Jesus says something or God says something about like your life is worth more than many sparrows or something like that. Yeah. So I don't know. Some of you don't know what the verse is.  [00:23:24] Sarah: I must've missed class that day. [00:23:26] Jason: Yeah, exactly. So anyway, we go up to the car, get this, come back down, we exit that same exit down on the first floor and I'm looking around, I'm like, this is not a great area. No, it was not.  [00:23:37] Sarah: It was bad.  [00:23:37] Jason: There's some rough characters and like, they're walking around and like,  [00:23:41] Sarah: bleh. In fact, we went to the comedy club and one of the comedians, he said, so now I have a bully and he's a homeless man and the same homeless man, he like, hangs out right outside the comedy club and he said, I'm here all the time. [00:23:52] And now the homeless man is like harassing me every single time. And he's like, so now I have a bully who's a homeless man. He's like, what do I do about that?  [00:24:01] Jason: Yeah, this is great. This is great. So  [00:24:05] Sarah: yeah.  [00:24:06] Jason: Yeah. So I may be able to keep Sarah safe from her bird rescuing adventures in the future. We'll see.  [00:24:13] Sarah: Stop the car. [00:24:15] When I tell you to stop, just stop the car.  [00:24:16] Jason: You still would have gotten out. I didn't want you to get out. We could have come back.  [00:24:20] Sarah: Oh, no. It could have died in the meantime. What if it went in the street? It tried to go in the street. I had to stop it.  [00:24:27] Jason: All right. I would rather a little bird die than my wife. [00:24:31] Sarah: So that's okay. Yeah. But I don't feel like I feel like there's a third option.  [00:24:36] Jason: Men, you know what I'm thinking right now? You know.  [00:24:40] Sarah: They're like, what is wrong with her?  [00:24:42] Jason: They don't think what's wrong with it. They just go, that's what women do. Like, and yeah, and guys understand. So.  [00:24:49] Sarah: We have to save things. [00:24:51] Jason: Okay, so, should we wrap this up? Anything else we should have? I didn't know we were going into this whole date, but I have a date planned for this weekend. It's the one that I thought had been the previous weekend. So we're, I'm taking her out again, but men plan some dates, show some leadership. Don't wait till she asks you to do things. [00:25:10] Try and Be proactive and find ways to do things before she asks you right. And if she's asked you to do things multiple times, you probably are being a lazy bum. Comfort ease and that's feminine, right? Everybody loves to see a woman in comfort in with her pillows and cushions laying out attractively but guys. They love to see guys at work, like they, man, you do the work. [00:25:34] If you are just sitting around watching football games all day and being a bum, then you are actually in your feminine as a guy and men are men of action. Get some stuff done, do some things, be proactive, improve yourself. So that's all I'll say about that. All right. So yeah. And join our program and get, join our program. [00:25:56] Get a coach like me. That's going to call you out on your BS and help you step into a mass more masculine frame. We will crush it more in business. And I guarantee that you will be getting more respect, more love, more sex, more, all the good stuff. If you show up and if you like show up and be the person you were meant to be. [00:26:16] So, we, I will challenge you to do that. I've worked with relationship coaches. I've got a coach for a marriage coach right now. I've got we've had business coaches like you need to be constantly improving yourself. So, I will make sure that you're doing that if you join our program. All right. [00:26:33] That's it for today, right? All right. Until next time, everybody to our mutual growth. If you would like to be part of the adventure with door, grow, Go to doorgrow. com. Check us out. Book a call with us. We'll find out if we can help you. And if you are wanting to be a little bit more connected to our free community, you can go to doorgrowclub. com and join our free Facebook group. And that's it. Bye everyone. [00:27:01] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:27:27] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In this episode of Let's Talk About CBT, host Helen MacDonald speaks with Sarah, Sally, and Leanne about Sarah's experience of having Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) after giving birth. They explore how CBT helped Sarah regain control during a challenging postnatal period, addressing struggles such as insomnia, anxiety, and adjusting to new motherhood. Sarah shares her journey of balancing therapy with the therapeutic benefits of movement and time spent in nature. CBT therapists Sally and Leanne discuss the powerful combination of therapy, physical activity, and connecting with nature for improving mental health.  Useful links: NHS Choices- Insomnia-https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/insomnia/  NHS Guidance on feeling depressed after childbirth: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/baby/support-and-services/feeling-depressed-after-childbirth/ MIND information on how nature can help mental health: https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/tips-for-everyday-living/nature-and-mental-health/how-nature-benefits-mental-health/ For more on CBT the BABCP website is www.babcp.com Accredited therapists can be found at www.cbtregisteruk.com Listen to more episodes from Let's Talk About CBT here. Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was produced and edited by Steph Curnow   Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't. I'm Helen MacDonald, your host. I'm the senior clinical advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies Today I'm very pleased to have Sarah, Sally and Leanne here to talk with me about having CBT, in Sarah's case, when you've recently had a baby and also the value of getting more active and getting outside into nature and how that can help when you're also having CBT. Sarah, would you like to introduce yourself, please? Sarah: Hi, I'm Sarah. I'm, 37 from Sheffield and like I said, just recently had a baby, and she's absolutely wonderful. She is a happy, loud little bundle of joy. I ended up having CBT though, because the experience of having the baby wasn't what I thought it was going to be, I think is the reason. And I, just went a little bit mad, so I got some help. Yeah, I'm normally a very happy, positive, active person. Lots of friends, very sociable, always like to be doing things, always like to be in control and have a plan. I like to know what I'm doing and what everyone else is doing. And all that changed a little bit and I didn't really know what to do about it. So yeah, got some therapy. Helen: Thank you Sarah. So, we'll talk with you a bit more about what that was like. And first, Sally, would you like to just briefly say who you are? Sally: Yeah, so I'm, my name's Sally. I am a Cognitive Behavioural Therapist, working both in the NHS and in, in private practice at the moment. Helen: Thank you. And Leanne, Leanne: Hi, I'm Leanne. and I'm a cognitive behavioural therapist as well. And I also work in the NHS and in private practice with Sally. Helen: Thank you all very much. What we're going to do is ask Sarah to tell us a bit more about, when you use the term mad, perhaps I could ask you to say a little bit more about what was happening for you that made you look for some therapy. Sarah: Wel the short answer to that is I developed insomnia about 12 weeks postnatally, didn't sleep for five days. Baby was sleeping better than most, you know, so it was equally frustrating because there was no real reason I didn't think that I should be awake. And sleep obviously is very important when you've had a baby. As I said, I like to be in control, like to prepare, like to know what's going on. So I did hypnobirthing, I prepared, I planned, I packed the biggest suitcase for this birth of this baby that I was really excited for and I thought I'd prepared mentally for every eventuality- what kind of birth, what would happen afterwards, but all very physical because they're the sorts of things that I could understand and imagine. And basically I ended up having an emergency C section, which in the moment I was fine with and I didn't think I was bothered by it, but the level of pain afterwards, that then again affected my level of control over looking after the baby. And the level of debilitation it created that I wasn't expecting- this is the key thing, I wasn't expecting it. That meant that I wasn't able to be me, really. I wasn't able to not least look after a baby, but get myself dressed, get myself showered, walk to the shop, drive a car, play netball, walk my dog. And I wasn't able to do any of that. I didn't appreciate that I was struggling with that, with accepting that. And because it went on for so long, and of course with this comes the baby blues that everyone talks about, but that's meant to only last apparently a couple of weeks. I, you know, you kind of just think, oh, well, I feel all this. I feel pain. I feel sad. I can't stop crying. But all that's meant to happen, all that's normal and it's sort of became the norm. So I was like, well, this is normal. This is how I'm going to feel forever. At this point I didn't have insomnia. I just could not stop crying. And I mean, like I couldn't, I didn't talk to anyone for two days at one point, because I knew if I opened my mouth to say anything, I would start crying. Like literally anything, I would just start crying. What the clincher for me was when I spoke to a doctor, I thought they were going to say get out and about, do some therapy, which at the time, I'm going to be honest, I thought, I can't sleep. I need a fix now. What I now know is I was doing a lot of behaviours that over time culminated in my body going, you're not listening to me, you're not well. Right I need to do something physical so that you wake up and do something about it. And that was the insomnia. So, I went to the doctor fully expecting them to say, do some mindfulness, do this, do that. And at that point I was just, you need to fix this now. I need to sleep. I need drugs. And yes, that's what they gave me, but they did say you need to do CBT- but what they did say what the first thing the doctor said was, you need antidepressants. Now, as a nurse working in GP surgery for them to jump all the self-help stuff and go take these tablets was like, Oh, right. I'm not okay. and it gave me that like allowance to say, I need to take tablets. But I already had said to myself, but I want to do not just mindfulness and helpfulness for myself. I want to do structured CBT because that way it is something I'm doing to give me back my control and I've got a plan. And because I already knew CBT was wonderful. Yeah, I didn't really understand what it was, how it worked, the structure of it. And I get that there's different types for different problems. but I knew that's what I wanted to do, once I had tablets to help me sleep and knew the antidepressants were going to work eventually, which did take a while. I was at least doing something myself that would help me forever. And I just thought, what have I got to lose? I need to do something. And until I started CBT, basically, I just felt like I was running around in circles in the dark. And the CBT gave me control and focus and, right, this is what we're doing going that way. Because until I started CBT, you know, I was Googling everything. Right, I'll try this. Right, I'll try that. And because it didn't work within 24 hours, I'd then try something else and try something else. Now it was making it worse, obviously. So, to have the CBT and have my therapist say, do this one thing for a whole week. I was like, all right, okay. That's quite a long time, but there's obviously a reason. Helen: Sarah, thank you for telling us all about that. What I'm hearing is that you had a combination of massive changes in your life, which will happen when you've had a baby, all sorts of things about the kind of person that you are, kind of added to all your really careful and sensible preparations for having this baby and then really being taken by surprise almost by all the other impact that it had on you and taking a while really to look for help and to look for a very specific kind of help then. And I'm just wondering in the context of all that, what it was like when you first went to see Sally for therapy? Sarah: Well, like I say, it was brilliant. It was like having someone turn the lights on and point me in the right direction and say, right, head that way and don't turn off and don't go any other direction. Just keep going that way. And it will eventually result in this. It's like if you go to the gym and you're running on the treadmill and you're thinking, well, is this going to achieve what I want it to achieve? And until it does start to, you've not got that positive reinforcement, to keep going. So quite often you stop, and that's what I was doing. I was trying one thing, trying the next, because I was so desperate for it to just go away, this insomnia. Which obviously at the time was one thing, but I understand now there was a whole other problem going on but the insomnia was what I needed fixing. I found CBT for insomnia, but Sally said, do you want to do a more generic anxiety control type approach and I said, yeah, because that's what if before this, you know, five, six years ago, little things would happen. And I think, Oh, I should do CBT for that. So it's clearly the same thing. So yeah. Why don't we just tackle it as a whole? And that was definitely the best thing to do. Helen: It sounds as if one of the things that was really helpful was looking at the bigger picture, as well as focusing on taking enough time to make changes. Okay. Can you tell us about the specific things that you did in therapy that you saw as particularly helpful. Sarah: Yeah. Like you say, what was helpful was being given a timeline really, and a direction. Like I say, when you go to the gym, you're not sure if it's going to work, I had to just trust Sally that what was she was explaining to me was going to work. And of course, at the time I couldn't see how it was going to work, but at least someone I trusted was telling me it will this, just do this? What was most helpful I could say was being told you've got to do the homework yourself. There's no point in being just told stuff. It was explained to me. And then what was helpful was then being told, go away and do this one thing for a whole week and then we'll review. So it really just broke down my thoughts, behaviours, my thought processes that I was going at such a hundred miles an hour that I wasn't giving, even giving myself time to think or realise I was having, and essentially that's what CBT is, you know, making you stop, think and unpick your thoughts and your behaviours and then trying to change them accordingly. So yeah, that the homework was helpful. And then obviously reviewing that homework, which with, before I even got to the review, a week later, I was able to physically feel and see why I was being asked to do what I was being asked to do. Helen: And I'm just thinking the analogy that you used there about being in the gym that you wouldn't necessarily expect to be super fit or running five miles the first time you got on the treadmill, but there was something that was tending to make you, you use the word desperate really to make a difference immediately. Because things needed to change. And during the therapy, was there anything that you found particularly challenging or something that either you and Sally talked about it, but you really didn't want to try it? Sarah: Well, as the weeks moved on, obviously the challenges that the homework got harder because it asked you to delve further in and make the changes of what you've, you know, you've realized just to give an idea, essentially the first week, I was asked to literally rate my happiness per hour as to what I was doing. Sounds simple. It is simple, but very quickly I realised, well, this doesn't make me as happy. So why am I doing it? And then of course you stop doing it because you know, it doesn't make you happy. And then over time, there's less time that you're unhappy. The second week, it was a bit more detail, rate how anxious certain things make you., So that was all fine. But once it got to the weeks where it was highlight the things that you've found out make you anxious, now do them or don't do them. Or, you know, if there's something you're doing to make yourself feel better, but actually you've realised it doesn't really work, it actually has a negative effect later on, don't do it. And if there's something that you're avoiding, but you know probably will make you feel better- do it. So that's obviously that's the scary bit because you've literally facing the spider, if that's what your problem is. but again, like every other stage during the CBT, I found it really easy. The main thing was I trusted Sally and also had nothing to lose.  One of the things, the behaviours that we realized I was doing was seeking reassurance from people on hypothetical worries. So you Google, you ask your experienced mums, why is my baby this colour or not sleeping or eating or the poo looks like this? They can't answer that. And you're wanting them to reply, Oh, it's this. And of course they can't. So, or I'd say to my husband, am I going to sleep tonight? He doesn't know that. And by doing that, I would reinforce the anxiety. But yeah, that was an example of something I stopped myself doing. And within days I realized, Oh, there was that thing that normally I would have asked about or Googled. I didn't. And actually nothing bad happened and I forgot all about it. Cause that was the worry was that it all comes back to sleep. If I didn't ask, would I then lie awake at night worrying I don't know what the answer is, but I didn't. So yeah, the hardest bit was actually stopping certain behaviours or starting certain behaviours. But actually I found it very easy once I had done because the positive reinforcement was there, you know, it worked. Helen: Thank you, Sarah. And, in a couple of minutes, I'm going to bring Sally into the conversation to talk about her reflections on what you've just been saying. Overall though, what are the things that you're still using now from what happened in therapy? What are the things that you learned and how are things now compared with when you first went to see Sally. Sarah: Well, things are great. I'm on antidepressants still. I'm going to see the doctor soon. Cause they want you to be on those for six months before you even think about coming off them. I feel myself now, so I feel confident to do that. Um, and because I'm healed, I'm back to being myself physically. I play netball, I walk the dog. I mean, I walked for four hours yesterday because of dog walking and pushing the pram around and played netball as well. So that helps, you know, being out and about physically, being in nature where I would normally be definitely helps my mood. The CBT a hundred percent has helped because there's been change again with the baby. So we've gone from breastfeeding to weaning, sleep changes, cause it's all about sleep, putting her in her own room, thinking when she's going to wake up, is she okay? Am I going to get back to sleep? Is there any point in me going to sleep? Cause she can be awake in this many hours. You know, that's a whole new challenge that I've had to deal with and there's been times that I've stopped and thought, Ooh. There's a thing I'm doing here and it's a behaviour that we recognised was what I was doing originally, which when I did it too much caused the problem. So, I've been able to really be more self-aware, basically, checking with myself and go, stop that. You don't need to do that. Everything will be fine. And guess what it is. Helen: Well, that's really good to hear. And what I'm also hearing is that it's not just that therapy helped, is that you're still using the techniques that you learn in the therapy. Sarah: I am. And also, I meant to say. This might not be the same for everybody, but it's quite important for myself because I'm not at work at the moment, you know, I'm a nurse. I've lost a sense of not purpose, but people come to me every day at work asking for help and support and advice. And I love to be able to do that and hear them say that's really helped, thank you. And since having the CBT, because it is something people are more happy to talk about nowadays, the amount of people I've spoken to that have said, Oh, I've done CBT or Oh, I'm thinking about, I've been told I should do CBT. Or none of that just I'm doing this behaviour and I'm not happy. I feel like I've been able to be a mini therapist to a few other people. I've been able to pass the torch a little bit because even though the problem they might be having is different to insomnia or anxiety, a lot of what Sally taught me was, I found, they were telling me things and I was thinking, well, I'll just say this thing that I do because it would work. And I've been able to relay what Sally said to so many people. And that's given me a lot of, joy because I've been able to help people. And they've said, Oh, right. Brilliant. You know, either they've gone to therapy because I've told them why they should because they didn't have anyone telling them that before, they've gone and then come back and gone, that was great. Or they've said to me, Oh, I didn't think anybody else was on Sertraline. 80 percent of the country are on Sertraline. It's fine. And that gives them support. Or like I say, the little technique Sally taught me, I've said, do this. And then they've come back and gone, do you know that really helped. So that's been nice for me too. Helen: Well, if there's somebody out there listening to this, who hasn't had that kind of conversation with you, or someone else who's recommended CBT or things that you can do to help in a situation like that. Is there anything that you would want to say about, CBT or looking after your mental health that anybody out there who hasn't encountered it before might need to know or want to hear. Sarah: It's free, most of the time. It's something that will help you for the rest of your life. Unlike, you know, a course of antibiotics. it's something that gives you control. It doesn't hurt, there's no injections. It's brilliant. Talk to people, I think is the key thing, not least your doctor, because obviously that's a private conversation. But again, as working in a GP surgery, I know that majority of health issues that come through the door, there's always an in for therapy. There's always a little bit of whatever they've come in with. Do you know what therapy could help that?  It should be the crux of everything. You know whenever a patient comes to see me, I can't think of many situations where I don't say, do you know what would help? Drinking more water. I feel like it's just as important as that in terms of you can't fix something up here if you don't get your foundation and your foundation is nourishment and happiness and the therapy made me happier because I had more control, and was less anxious and more relaxed and, you know, just chill. So I think just talk to people, not least your GP, if you don't want to talk to someone personally. Helen: From my point of view, that's a great message, Sarah. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. And what I'm going to do now is I'm going to ask Sally, just to talk a little bit, I could see, I know our listeners can't see our faces, but I could see Sally smiling when you were saying some of the things that she told you to do. And I'd be really interested to hear Sally's reflections on her therapy with you and how you work together. Sally: Yeah, absolutely. It was brilliant working with Sarah and I think it's really nice to see where she's at now and also the fact that she's still using a lot of those tools that she learned and that she put into practice and, I think one of the things that was really good is that Sarah was ready. She was ready to engage. She wanted to do, you know, she wanted to do all of the things. She wanted to practice everything. She was ready there with the notebook, every session kind of, you know, making notes, taking it all in. And that's brilliant because that's what you need in CBT is really just to come with an open mind and just think about things in a different way. So that was really good. And I think as well, one of the things we discussed before we started the therapy was, time away from the baby. So this was Sarah's time, you know, this was an hour a week where, Sarah's husband or mum would look after the baby and this would be Sarah's hour where it's just about Sarah and it's just about this therapy and the CBT and so it was really important that she had that time and that space with no distractions. And so that I think that worked really well. We did some face to face and some remote via Teams sessions together. And I think one of the, one of the sort of challenges initially, as Sarah's mentioned before, Sarah's problem was that she couldn't sleep, that's what Sarah came with, it was a sleep problem. And it took us a little bit of time to sort of think about that together and unpick it together and go, actually, do we think it might be a symptom of a bigger picture, something else that's going on. And so we talked a bit over time and agreed as Sarah mentioned that actually it probably feels like more of a generalized anxiety and worry problem that was going on that was then impacting on the sleep. We spent quite a bit of time just exploring that and we did some fun experiments and things as the sessions went on, which is probably what I was smiling along to because I know it's not always easy for clients to, to sort of do those things and want to drop things like reassurance seeking. It's a safety net. And it's hard to drop that sometimes. Helen: Thanks, Sally. You've just said two things there that I would really like to explore a little bit more. You said fun experiments and reassurance seeking. So can you explain what you mean by those please? Sally: Of course. So, suppose I say fun because experiments are quite fun, aren't they sometimes. I know it's not easy to push yourself out of your comfort zone but I think we, me and Sarah had a bit of a laugh about some of the things that, you know, in the session, once we'd sort of sat down together and said, okay, so you're asking all of these other mums, for example, you know, what would they do in this situation, or like Sarah mentioned, what does it mean that my baby is this colour or that this is here and, you know, as we sort of broke it down together we could sort of see that, oh, actually, yeah, that they don't know. They're not going to be able to tell me this. My husband doesn't know if I'm going to be able to sleep tonight or not. So I'm asking this, but actually it's not getting me anywhere. So I suppose we almost got to a point where we could sort of see the funny side to those questions. And actually that helped, I think a little bit with then, right. How do we drop these things? How do we experiment with them? How do we move forward? And that really started to increase Sarah's confidence. And I could see that from session to session, you know, she wasn't asking other people, she was just allowing herself to rely on her own thoughts and her own experiences. And that worked really well for her. Helen: So there's something quite important about testing things out, finding out for yourself really having the experience of what it's like to do something differently and check whether that works in your particular situation. There was another phrase that Sarah used as well, which was positive reinforcement. I think we should just mention that's about essentially what reward you get or what is it that happens that makes you more likely to do something again. And that's what positive reinforcement means. It's just something that happens after we've done something that makes it more likely we'll do it again. And, to me, it sounds like one example of that was making it fun, testing these things out and actually getting something rewarding out of it was part of that journey. Sally: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a big part of it. Helen: And one of the things that made me smile when you were speaking, Sarah, was when you were talking about what Sally told you to do. And what things you ended up trying out for homework and those sorts of things, the way Sally's talked about it was deciding together, discussing it. I'd be really interested to hear a bit more about do you get told what to do in CBT or is it more you end up in a position where you've decided to do it? Sarah: No, you don't get told what to do. Of course. It's all very, like Sally says, you talk about it and then together decide what might be the best experiments is a good word. Cause everyone's different. Obviously, my exact path of how we got from A to B probably might not work for somebody else. Like Sally says, I came with a notebook, wrote everything down, did homework, because that works for me. No, she didn't tell me what to do. And what was funny as well was Sally's very good at just sitting back and letting you talk, which works because I talk a lot. So she sits back and she's very good at just sort of nudging you to realisations on your own, because if someone tells you that you think something or that you should do something, it doesn't really mean much. If you think it through yourself, because someone's supported you towards that thought process, you believe it more. It makes more sense. And you're like, ah, you know, the cogs go a bit slower, but then you get there. And so over the weeks I would be reflecting on what I'd been doing for Sally, myself, but with the homework. And she'd just go, and so do you think, and what do you reckon? And then I'd go off on another blah, blah, blah, and come back to a realisation that, and she'd have this sort of pleasing grin on her face, of yes that's where I was hoping you'd get to, but you need to get there yourself, obviously. And I was just like, really proud of myself, but also proud of, chuffed for her that it was going in the right direction, it was working. Helen: It's good to hear that you are proud and also it's good for me here listening to you both talk about this because we do talk in CBT about guided discovery and that's exactly what you've just described to us is that idea that it's you that's looking at what's happening And the therapist is perhaps asking you some well-placed questions, but it is about you and what you need and your process and drawing your conclusions from what you've discovered. It's good to hear you talking about that experience. And I'm just thinking about, at the beginning, we did mention that getting active, getting out into nature and things to do with moving more were an important part of the therapy and I'd really like to bring Leanne in as well to talk about how getting active, getting out into nature might be an important part of that therapy journey. Leanne: Oh, lovely, yeah it's something that Sally and I do a lot in our CBT because we recognize that the cognitive behavioural therapy has a really strong evidence base. There's a lot of research that says that it works and it's useful for lots of common mental health problems. But we also know that there's a really strong evidence base for exercise. Exercise is known to be one of the best antidepressants. And there's research as well that says that being in nature has a massive mood boosting effect. And if you pull all those three things together, then surely the outcome can only be brilliant if you've got lots and lots of really good evidence to say that, you know, any one of these variables on its own is going to help you, but let's combine the three. So, so we are huge advocates of including that in the work that we do as much as possible for lots and lots of different reasons, but you know, that sits underneath it all. It can be so good for mood. And also from our own experience I know I feel better when I've blown the cobwebs off, or we've got outside, or I felt the wind on my face, or I've been in nature. I've just moved a little bit. So from personal experience, both Sally and I can say it works. Helen: That's really good to hear, Leanne. And I'm just thinking, I can hear the enthusiasm in your voice and certainly we do know about that effect on wellbeing on getting out in the fresh air, moving more, and how important that is. And without taking away from how important that is, Sarah was talking about she just had major surgery. A caesarean section is actually quite a big operation. She's also got a tiny baby, so at least in the immediate short term, it would have been really difficult for her to move much or get out in the fresh air very much. And it might be the case not only for people who've recently had a baby, even without the surgery, it can have quite a big impact on your body but also perhaps for people with other challenges to getting out and about and moving and I'm just wondering, how can people still benefit from combining getting more active with things that might help say anxiety and depression when they do have challenges about getting out and about? Leanne: I think the first thing that comes to mind is to get medical guidance to kind of find out from somebody who knows your body as well as you do about what's appropriate and what's doable, before you start leaping into exercise or doing anything. And I think it's about trying to find ways just to move a little bit, whether that's, you know, stretching or things like chairobics or chair yoga, those kinds of things can be things that people do at home when they have limitations or pain or, you know, anything like that, but within the realms of, I suppose you've got to pace it within your capabilities and what's appropriate for you. But things like connecting with nature. I was looking into this prior to was talking today and things like birdwatching and looking out of the window or doing a little bit of gardening or tending to window boxes and those kinds of things can give you the same powerful effects of connecting with nature and a bit of activity too. It's not about, I suppose when we think about exercise and we think about movement, we often think about the Olympics and we think about marathon runners and we think about going to the gym and lifting really heavy weights over your head. And it doesn't have to be like that. It can be small things often and Sally and I were talking about this before about, the NHS recommendations and we worked out that it's about 20 minutes a day of movement that's helpful. And also, if you add 20 minutes a day in nature so you do 20 minutes moving around in nature every day, that's going to have a huge effect. So if you can find a way to, to do a little bit, a little walk, a little stretch, look out the window, even watch a nature documentary, that has a massive effect on your mood as well, because it's connecting with nature but in a different way, you don't have to leave the house for that. How does that answer your question Helen? Helen: It does thank you, Leanne. And I'm really pleased to hear you say that it doesn't have to involve buying expensive equipment or joining the gym. You don't have to live on the edges of a beautiful park or something like that. It's something that you can do whatever your living circumstances are. There's all sorts of creative ways that you can incorporate this as part of recovering, improving depression and anxiety and your mental health more generally. And I wonder whether, Sarah has any comments about that, Sarah, because you did mention how important that was to you even before you had your baby, and of course there would have been quite a big change to what was available to you immediately after you had her. Just wondered what your responses to what Leanne's just been saying about that. Sarah: Yeah, I mean, like I said at the very beginning, my expectations of getting back to being myself were not met. And so the big things were, I actually made a list for and showed Sally of things that I'd written down saying, and I entitled it Getting Back To Me. And it was in order of, I just want to be able to make tea for my husband, walk the dog with the baby. These are all things that I just thought I'm never going to be. I don't understand how I'm going to be able to do these. And every time I did them, I was like, oh look, I'm doing that. You know, playing netball and the big one was paddle boarding, and I did it the other week and I was like, oh yeah paddle boarding. Like Leanne says, when it was very important for me as someone who's very active and I'm outdoors with the dog in the countryside all the time to get back to that. And like Leanne says though, it doesn't have to be going for a run. You know, my level of, well, what do I want to achieve was forced to be lowered, if you like, that's the wrong word, changed and because what I hadn't realized on top of taking the dog for a walk was whilst I'm there, I'm listening to the water. I'm listening to the birds. I'm feeling, I'm smelling, I'm all these things. And I didn't realise all that had been took away from me. And so that was adding to how miserable I was. And, like Leanne says, it doesn't have to be right. I need to be able to go for a run. It can just be find yourself back in something that makes you feel happy. And I think one of the techniques I wanted to just mention as well, that Sally taught me, when Leanne mentioned about you doing 20 minutes a day of being in nature or exercising, so that you make sure that you really are doing that to its fullest and you're not, you know, birdwatching whilst washing the dishes or thinking about what you need to make for tea. She taught me a five, four, three, two, one mindfulness technique, which basically is whilst you're tending to your bird box or whatever you're doing, think of five things that you can see. Four things you can hear, three things you can smell, two things you can feel, a one thing you can taste or something like that. And not only does that focus your mind for that minute on those things. It's really nice to think, Oh, I didn't know I could hear that I'm tuning into it. And then you do it again, five minutes later or as much as you want or, and it stops the thought processes that are negative as well, because you're focusing on that, but it just makes sure that when you're in the nature bit you are really soaking it all in as much as possible. Helen: Thank you for that, Sarah. And I'm just thinking, we've had a really interesting conversation about your experience of therapy, Sarah, Sally's and Leanne's thoughts about what they're doing in therapy and what. seems to help people to benefit from it. I was wondering if I could ask each of you in turn, what's your most important message that you'd want people out there to know? So, Sally, what do you think is one key thing that you would want people out there to know? Sally: I would say that mental health difficulties are common and it's not something that you have to sort of put up with or that you're stuck with, I suppose, for the long term, often there are a lot of quite often very simple techniques that you can practice and try and learn either with or without therapy, that can just really help to manage those, either the feelings of low mood or those anxiety feelings as well so, it doesn't have to be a major change. There's a lot out there and a lot of cost-effective things as well that you can get involved with that can just really help to boost your mood. Helen: Thank you, Sally. Leanne. Leanne: Oh, it's such a good question. I think what I'd really like people to think about is thinking about mental health, the way we think about fitness and physical health and spending time each day doing something that nourishes and nurtures mental fitness, let's call it. In the same way that we might, you know, drink some water, like Sarah said, take our vitamins and have something to eat and try and have good sleep, but moving in the direction of thinking about our mental fitness being on the agenda all the time so that I suppose it normalises asking for help and talking about things and looking after yourself and, and good wellbeing all round. Because I think people often really struggle, don't talk about it and then come for therapy when they've been on their own with it for a very long time. Helen: Thank you very much, Leanne. And Sarah, what do you think you would want people out there to know, one key thing that you'd like to say? Sarah: Probably that if you think something's not quite right or something really isn't right and you just don't, you're not sure what, you don't have to know, you don't have to be able to go to a doctor and say I've got this problem, can you fix it please? Doctors are just as, they're well trained to know when someone needs referring for therapy. So yes, that's who you need to probably go to first in a professional manner but if you just go and say, okay, this is how I feel, blah, blah, blah. They'll pick up and know, actually, you would benefit from therapy because it sounds like this might be happening or going on and then you get referred to someone obviously who's even more specialised, a therapist, and they can sit back and listen to you just offload and say, these are the things that's happening, I'm not happy because of this, that and the other, and they'll go, right, It could be this, shall we try that? And so, yeah, you don't have to have all the answers, I think, is my key thing. but you need to ask for them, Helen: Fantastic. Thank you so much. All three of you have been excellent at telling us about your experience and knowledge, and I'd just like to express how grateful I am for all three of you talking with me today. Thank you. Thanks for listening to another episode and for being part of our Let's Talk About CBT community. There are useful links related to every podcast in the show notes. If you have any questions or suggestions of what you'd like to hear about in future Let's Talk About CBT podcasts, we'd love to hear from you. Please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at podcasts@babcp.com, that's podcasts@babcp.com. You can also follow us on X and Instagram at BABCP Podcasts. Please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast by clicking subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, so that each new episode is automatically delivered to your library and do please share the podcast with your friends, colleagues, neighbours, and anyone else who might be interested. If you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, you might find our sister podcasts Let's talk about CBT- Practice Matters and Let's Talk about CBT- Research Matters well worth a listen.  

Summary In this special episode of Startup Junkies, we're recording live from Startup Crawl 2024 where we sat down with a variety of guest entrepreneurs and their innovative ventures. Louis Lee, CMO of Wonderful Platform, discussed its pioneering work in senior care technology. Wonderful Platform's companion robot, Avadin, addresses elderly loneliness and depression through personalized AI-driven interactions. Jangwon J Lee's company, DeepSales, tackles the unique sales challenges in Asia. By building a comprehensive business database and employing AI, it streamlines lead generation and pre-qualification for SMEs. Sarah No, a champion for early childhood education, shared insights on Playtag. This game-changing platform leverages AI and computer vision to analyze child behavior, enhancing teacher-parent communication and improving learning outcomes. With a ninety percent satisfaction rate in Korea, Sarah aims to refine Playtag's offerings for the U.S. market through valuable customer feedback. Kris Adams enlightened us on Startup Junkie's robust event calendar, boasting over two hundred free events to support local entrepreneurs. He introduced the ARse program focusing on tech and tech-enabled startups in Arkansas. In a short time, ARise has already connected one hundred and nine startups with thirty subject matter experts, offering free coaching, access to capital, and valuable industry connections. Stephen Park of DOWHAT, a hospitality venture, enhances operational efficiency in hotels via mobile app integrations, already serving fifty-five hotels in Korea. Stephen's positive experience in Northwest Arkansas and ambitious goals for market expansion encapsulate the collaborative spirit of the region. Overall, this episode reflects on the warm, family-like community among entrepreneurs, epitomized by the growing success of the Startup Crawl event, making it clear that the commitment to collaboration and consistent effort forms the backbone of NWA's thriving startup ecosystem.   Show Notes (0:00) Introduction (0:54) Louis Lee's Origin Story (2:23) The Solution Wonderful Platform is Offering (4:12) Closing Question (5:04) Introduction to Jangwon J Lee (5:20) Jangwon's Background (6:50) DeepSales' Ideal Customer (7:45) DeepSales' Pre Qualification Process (8:38) Customers' Responses to DeepSales (9:24) DeepSales' Sourcing Solutions (10:32) Jangwon's Origin Story (12:04) Jangwon's Impression of Northwest Arkansas (12:32) Closing Question (13:11) Introduction to Sarah No (13:28) About Playtag (15:00) Sarah's Background (15:54) Sarah's Goal with the Accelerator (16:48) Closing Question (17:37) Introduction to Kris Adams (17:47) About the ARise Program (20:03) ARise's 2024 Milestones (24:49) ARise's Outreach Initiatives in Arkansas (26:09) About Kate Loughridge's Role as Marketing Manager of ARise (27:57) About Steven Park (29:59) About DOWHAT (31:28) Steven's Anticipation of Joining the Accelerator (33:55) Introduction from Calvin Smith (34:14) About Startup Crawl 2024 (36:13) The Growth of Startup Crawl (38:41) Caleb Talley's Experience with Startup Crawl and its Ecosystem (40:51) What's Next for Startup Junkie   Links Jeff Amerine Caleb Talley Startup Junkie Startup Junkie YouTube Louis Lee Wonderful Platform Jangwon J Lee DeepSales Sara No Playtag Kris Adams ARise Steven Park DOWHAT Calvin Smith

Man can learn valuable lessons from man's best friend…  In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about their passion project of fostering dogs and how business owners can learn about resilience from these adorable rescue pups. You'll Learn [02:56] The story of Chance the dog [11:09] What does this have to do with running a business? [18:39] Jason and Sarah's foster dogs Tweetables “You will look back on this as being such an easy thing for you to deal with in the present moment.” “If you're going to go through tough stuff, it's a lot better to have the right support around you.” “You're going to make mistakes, but that's the price of tuition in business.” “We're all doing the best we can with our current limited capacity and knowledge that we possessed in that moment.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If this dog can go through everything that he went through and still push through, whatever is happening in your business, whatever is happening in your life, whatever is happening in your marriage, in your friendships, in your relationships, you can push through it.  [00:00:14] Jason: Yeah, just tell yourself you're not yet at Maynard level. [00:00:17] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:35] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win we're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, founder, [00:01:16] cOO of DoorGrow. [00:01:18] And now let's get into the show. All right So we were thinking what we should talk about today and one of Sarah's strong passions Is dogs. I think Sarah likes dogs more than people. Is that fair?  [00:01:34] Sarah: That's accurate.  [00:01:35] Jason: Okay, she's an intj. Any of you that are familiar with myers briggs intjs typically like animals more than people. I don't know why, and I like dogs too, so not a fan of cats I'm allergic to them and I think they're smelly. [00:01:51] Sorry, all you cat lovers out there, but I'm more of a dog person. You can see in the background here is. Hey buddy, who's smelling around. This is a dog that we're fostering right now. And the working title for this dog is Hans. That's they give them names, but this is a dog we're fostering and it's such a sweet dog. [00:02:13] And so I wanted, this is a passion of Sarah's. We've been fostering some dogs and we've had, had some difficult times fostering dogs and we've had some good times, you know, let's, should we talk about our first foster?  [00:02:27] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. If that didn't turn us off to fostering...  [00:02:31] it was like worst case scenario, I would say. [00:02:35] Jason: So Sarah's dog, one of our dogs, he's a large dog and he's a Pitbull. American.  [00:02:44] Sarah: He's an American Pitbull. American Pitbull.  [00:02:45] Jason: Terrier. 100%. We got him DNA tested, purebred. And then we have another little mutt that we can talk about that we got.  [00:02:53] Sarah: That we adopted. Well, that one was after the whole Chance thing. [00:02:56] Jason: Yeah, totally. So we decided to, like foster, we brought a dog in and this dog's name was Chance and he was a pit bull. We thought maybe they'd get along but we didn't know Chance's background. We didn't know Chance's history. The previous people made it sound like he was a good dog sort of, but they really, I think we're kind of keeping secrets from us and gave us a bunch of rules. [00:03:21] Like, be careful with other dogs and like separate for a while and we did everything  [00:03:25] Sarah: that's always the rule.  [00:03:26] Jason: Sure.  [00:03:26] Sarah: Careful with other dogs be separate for a while. Slow introductions. Never feed together. That's yeah, those are always the rules. You say that as if that was like a red flag. [00:03:35] That was not a red flag.  [00:03:36] Jason: Okay. [00:03:37] Sarah: They tell you that with every dog.  [00:03:38] Jason: They had to have known that this dog had some violent tendencies or some history. So long story short, this dog bit Sarah. They gaslit us and blamed, it bit her arm. And they were like, "oh, well, there was food involved" or something like this. [00:03:53] We're like, okay, maybe it was us. We'll be more careful. So we still kept the dog. And we had the dog for like a month.  [00:04:00] Sarah: We struggled with that too. Because we really, we, right then and there, we thought, okay. I think we're done. I think he's got to go back. Someone else can foster him. [00:04:08] Yeah. And they kind of talked us into it. Like, "oh, well, can you just hang on to him until I find another place for him to go? Because like, nobody can take him right now."  [00:04:18] Jason: I don't think there's any safe place for them to go. So later. At this point later, it had been a month, we had integrated the dogs, they were hanging out, they're on the couch together, like it didn't seem to be a problem. [00:04:31] It was kind of, but I think really was like a working truce or something. I think this dog had a history of maybe being involved in dog fights, something like this would be my guess. Because some dogs will usually get together. And they'll do a little bit of have a little tiff, but they're not trying to kill each other, right? [00:04:48] They'll, like, bite, they'll do something, they'll give a warning, and they'll be done with it. So, I had come home from a walk, Parker came up to me, I played with him a little bit, he did a little playful sort of growl with a toy or whatever, the other dog gets off the couch. This dog had no expression. He's just headed towards Parker. [00:05:07] Parker saw him and it was like, it was on and saw him coming towards me. And they just locked up and they got into this horrible dog fight. Like, and we have a long entryway into our home, like a big hallway, like entryway that runs kind of all the way to the back of the house almost. [00:05:26] Right. And this was. in our family room towards the back of the house and the fight continued all the way to the front door. Like it was just, it was a disaster. This dog Chance and Parker were fighting and we were trying to break it up. Sarah was on with Parker trying to pull him and I was trying to get Chance off and Sarah, you were freaking out if you don't mind me saying. [00:05:51]  [00:05:51] Sarah: I mean, yeah. Like, rightfully so.  [00:05:54] Jason: Yeah. She's freaking out. And so it, yeah it was interesting. So there's blood everywhere. Blood flying all over the place, dogs are locked up and fighting, biting at each other and so then I, yeah. You know, if I had my gun or knife on me, dog probably would be dead. [00:06:09] I couldn't figure out what else to do. And we weren't going to let him kill our dog. And he was much stronger than Parker. So, we didn't want Parker to die. Right. So, but what I did in that moment is I was like, I had done a little bit of jujitsu training in the past. So I was like, Oh, I'm going to choke him out. [00:06:26] I was trying to, I first tried to lift the legs up. Cause that's what people say. I didn't, that wasn't really a great idea because I lift his back legs up and to try and pull him off. And he just turned and latched onto my leg. He turned really quickly, latched onto my leg, bit my leg through my pants. I have permanent bite mark on my right leg and had latched on my leg. [00:06:49] through my pants and was biting me. Then Parker was coming at him. So he turned back to Parker. And then I use that moment when he came at my leg towards me to get my arm underneath his neck and then to choke him out, just like in martial arts. So I did a blood choke and I figured he's probably got veins going through his neck to his brain, just like all of us humans. [00:07:13] And it choked him out. And then He passed out. I was holding him in my arm and I picked him up and was choking him out because he eventually released Parker and I was choking him out. I'm holding this limp dog in my arm. And then his Parker was latched onto one of his legs or something. And Sarah was like, "what do I do? What do I do? He won't let go!" And I was like, Sarah has a martial arts background, so I figured you knew how to do a choke. So I was like, "choke him out. You got to choke him out!" So she had to grab Parker and get him to release. And and he did. Parker really was trying to protect us. That was obvious. [00:07:52] But Parker was losing, like it wasn't going well for him. Parker, the other dog had some bites on him, but he was okay. But Parker had to go to the hospital. Like he was really messed up. He had to get surgery. His ear was like torn in half. Yeah, his  [00:08:09] Sarah: ear was torn and then he had a chunk ripped out of his neck. [00:08:13] Like the back of his neck. Yeah, it was ugly. Yeah, it was not good.  [00:08:16] Jason: So, while I had Chance in the choke hold and limp, I carried him through the house to the backyard and put him into the backyard. And shut the door so we could just keep them separate. And then, yeah, we were just, I was totally scared of that dog after that. [00:08:33] But that's what we did. And eventually I think we just got him into a crate or something. So he wasn't in the backyard.  [00:08:39] Sarah: Yeah. No, I had to go get him.  [00:08:41] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:42] Sarah: Into the crate. Because he was like, I don't think he's going to want to see me. I just choked him out. No. No, that's probably a good call. [00:08:48] Jason: He probably wouldn't want to attack me. Yeah. Because I was pretty rough with him. So, that's my adventure in choking out a pit bull. Yeah.  [00:08:58] Sarah: So I think you never really know what you're going to do until you're like in the moment.  [00:09:02] Jason: Yeah.  [00:09:03] Sarah: And then your adrenaline kicks in and sometimes you know what you're going to do or you think you know what you're going to do ahead of time and you find out there's no plan. [00:09:12] There's no plan. And the they do tell you like, oh, lift the dog's hind legs over its head and it will release. Yes, and  [00:09:20] two out of two times it released and then latched on to.  [00:09:25] Jason: Yeah, they don't like that it's being lifted up.  [00:09:27] Sarah: No.  [00:09:27] Jason: So, I mean, that was an interesting moment because I went into tunnel vision. [00:09:31] This is how guys brains work. We're generally singular focused. This is why they send us to war, right? We can just focus on one thing. So I wasn't really particularly traumatized by the event. I mean, it was, but I was like, okay, I'm in mission mode. I'm doing what I need to do with the dog and that's it. [00:09:47] Yeah. And then we got to clean up because there's blood everywhere, all through our home. Yeah, it was like a freaking emergency. Walls, everywhere. It was awful. There's blood everywhere.  [00:09:53] Sarah: Everywhere. And then I was covered in it. Because I was holding  [00:09:57] Jason: Parker and I had a white t shirt and then  [00:09:59] Sarah: when we like I got Parker in the office and Chance was outside because Jason put him out there and Jason looked at me and I'm literally like from here down I was just drenched. [00:10:12] Jason: You were holding Parker and he was the more wounded. Drenched. Yeah. [00:10:15] Sarah: And he's going "oh my god. Oh my god." He's like, "Sarah, there's freaking blood" It's not mine. It's not mine. Like, I'm okay. I lost my pinky nail. That got ripped off. So for a while I had no pinky nail that, that was not fun.  [00:10:27] Jason: Like your actual nail.  [00:10:28] Sarah: Like my actual, everybody says, okay. [00:10:30] Let me clear something up. Everybody says, Oh, those aren't real nails. These are real. These are actually attached to my real nails on my finger. So like underneath you can kind of see,  [00:10:41] Jason: yeah, there's like,  [00:10:42] Sarah: there are real nails here. And then yes, I make them longer, but it's not just a tip. Like if you pull off one of these nails, it is attached to your real nail and your real nail will come off with it. [00:10:55] Jason: You had a flesh pinky, like there was no nail for a while. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of odd.  [00:11:00] Sarah: Yeah, it was horrible. Yeah that, that was awful.  [00:11:03] Jason: Yeah, and it took a while for my bite mark to heal. So, yeah. So, so that was our first adventure.  [00:11:09] Sarah: Let me pause here and say, cause I know some of you guys are going, "why the freaking hell are they talking about any of this? It sounds awful. And it's like, oh my God, I don't even want to keep listening to the episode." Keep listening. Because I think one of the things that I would say about particularly about this situation that we had to go through is sometimes in life, sometimes also in business, you gotta go through some shit. [00:11:34] And you're going to be in some situations that you definitely did not plan for, that you've never been in before, and that Maybe you don't know what to do, and in the moment, the only thing you can do is whatever comes to your mind, whatever you can think of, and then, it's afterwards, then there's the PTSD, so then you just have to heal from the PTSD, but I also would say it's fair that every entrepreneur has a little PTSD from their business.  [00:12:07] Jason: Yeah, for sure.  [00:12:08] Sarah: Yeah  [00:12:09] Jason: Well, because entrepreneurs we take bigger risks. We get to experience you know issues like cash flow problems or staffing issues or team members that losing faith in us and leaving or team members stealing from us, right? [00:12:24] Sarah: Having to fire somebody.  [00:12:25] Jason: If you're working for a boss you don't generally have to experience a lot of this stuff that you experience as a business owner. We're choosing into a higher level of stress, trauma, difficulty, which is why it's not for everybody when not everybody starts a business. And but yeah, it's important to heal from these things and to level up from these things and learn from these things so that you can get to that next level of capacity to be able to deal with that next level of stress that exists in business. And I tell clients this all the time. [00:12:55] They're currently dealing with some problem they think is so hard and they're at kind of a lower level and I tell them, someday, you will look back on this as being such an easy thing for you to deal with in the present moment, you'll be like, Oh man, I can't believe that was so hard for me then. I'm dealing with such bigger challenges and bigger level, higher level things now. And that's encouraging for them. They're like, Oh, that's good news. They're like, and they know they're like, yeah, someday this will be easy. I'm like, someday, this hiring stuff will be easy. Someday this, you know, process stuff that you're dealing with will be easy. [00:13:29] Because you're going to increase your capacity. You're going to learn, you're going to level up. It's the price of tuition and business. So let me take a quick break. I'm going to share our sponsor for this episode, which is Vendoroo. So if you are dealing with constant stress, the hassle of maintenance coordination, and that's an issue for you, check out Vendoroo. They're your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish, triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection and coordination. It's built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability. [00:14:08] Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at Vendoroo, V E N D O R O O dot AI slash doorGrow and experience maintenance done right. I was actually, we were hanging out with the Vendoroo guys and I was telling them the story. Because we were telling them how we were fostering a dog and we had to get home, you know, from dinner. [00:14:29] And then they were, we somehow shifted in that story and they were just like, so interested. So, but yeah, so if you want to check out DoorGrow. com, we actually just put this up yesterday because we've been fostering and taking care of dogs and our team are really excited about this. I had the idea with one of my team members, we did a secret project. [00:14:51] Yeah, because we knew Sarah would probably like it. So we put up a dog page. So you can see the dogs that we've like, fostered. I don't think we put Chance on the page. Did we? I don't think we put Chance on the page.  [00:15:03] Sarah: No, we didn't. No. Chance was not a great story. But Parker isn't on there either. And Parker is the OG. [00:15:09] Jason: Parker's the OG. We can add Parker.  [00:15:11] Sarah: Parker's like the mascot of everything.  [00:15:14] Jason: So, anyway, check that out right at the top, you'll see a little dog emoji and it says dogs on our website. And you can see, you know, a little bit of the passion we have for helping out dogs. All right. So we told the story of Chance. [00:15:27] And you would think after that we would be done. And I think we were for a little while. It was like, yeah, kind of free, especially for you to like, get past the PTSD of that. You beat yourself up quite a bit about it, which you can be good at times, right?  [00:15:43] Sarah: I'm really, yeah. Yeah. Because on the DISC profile, I'm a DC, so I'm super critical of everything and everyone, including myself. [00:15:54] Yeah.  [00:15:54] So yeah.  [00:15:56] Jason: Which good operators are hard time.  [00:15:58] Sarah: And hard time with that. And I, like I, I internalized a lot of that. I took blame for a lot of that and I had to just kind of work, work my way through that. And it kind of goes back to anytime that you deal with a hard situation, it might be in business or otherwise, you know, you're going to reflect on the situation and some people are really good at externalizing and saying like, none of that was my fault. [00:16:25] You know, I have like no ownership in that whatsoever. Some of people, they take all of the ownership and are really bad at externalizing. So I think you have to kind of find the middle ground. Like what am I responsible for? What am I accountable for? You know, how can I learn? I'm going to learn from that. [00:16:43] And for me it was the, it hands down, it was the scariest moment of my life. Most terrifying moment of my entire life. And I've been in some pretty scary situations back when I did property management. This puts it to shame, absolute shame. But I think it's really just, it's finding the middle ground and figuring out what am I responsible for and how can I learn. [00:17:06] Jason: I think also, I think that some people are kinder to themselves and have more grace for themselves. And I think it's important to remember, like all of us have been through tough stuff and we may beat ourselves up for it, but beating ourselves up doesn't really have any saving power. It doesn't make us better to beat ourselves up. [00:17:26] What we can do though, is we can recognize, you know, in that moment. And based on the decisions we made we were making the best decisions we knew to make at that time And I think you know, we can all afford ourselves a little bit of grace. You're going to make mistakes and screw things up in business. [00:17:41] You're going to fuck up and you're going to make bad choices. I've made some big mistakes like in business. You know, I did a whole episode on my two million dollar mistake or whatever you're going to make mistakes, but that's the price of tuition in business and you keep going. But I think also we need to be willing to afford ourselves some grace and recognize we're all doing the best we can with our current limited capacity and knowledge that we possessed in that moment. [00:18:08] And so if you knew better, you would do better, right? We are definitely going to behave differently having had that lesson with Chance with other dogs, right? We're a little bit more attuned to their behavior. their temperament, like how to integrate them. Like we're paying more attention. [00:18:25] Like we just, we have a different level of awareness and that's what happens in business. If you can move past the trauma and the difficulty and you go right back at it, you pick yourself back up. You dust yourself off. You're going to learn from the experience. So should we talk about some other dogs real quick? [00:18:42] All right. Who else? Well, let's first, let's go to the OG, right? So Parker's my baby. Parker is the best dog I've ever had. And I don't know if there's ever going to be a dog that is better than Parker. I just don't, I said that about my first pit bull and then Parker, I love him so much more than my first pit bull. [00:19:01] . So Parker, I got him 2016, so he's like eight now. And he his mom was a family pet who got out of the yard one day and got herself pregnant. So she went, had a good old time. Her owner found out that she was pregnant and decided to drop her off at the pound because he didn't want a pregnant dog. [00:19:25] Sarah: So, you know, instead of like spay, neuter, that whole thing, he's like, yeah, I'll just take her to the pound.  [00:19:29] Jason: Let's get rid of her.  [00:19:30] Like, while pregnant.  [00:19:32] Sarah: Still going to find you, bud. Like you're out there, I'll get you one day. So dropped her off at the pound. Pregnant dogs should not be at the pound. They will, you know. [00:19:40] Get very sick. So, they moved her to a foster. She had a bunch of puppies and Parker was one of those puppies. So I saved him and he's my baby. He's fiercely loyal and protective of me, even when he probably shouldn't be. Sometimes with Jason, he's protective of me. Like you'll smack my butt, and Parker does not like that.  [00:20:04] Jason: I do smack Sarah's butt butt, everybody. Honest confessions. Husbands, if you are not smacking your wife's butt occasionally, something's wrong. Letting you know. So.  [00:20:15] Sarah: Yeah. But Parker doesn't know. He doesn't know that. He doesn't know it's friendly and playful and loving. No. He knows hitting is bad. [00:20:21] I [00:20:22] Jason: have to do it when he's not nearby.  [00:20:24] Sarah: Yeah. To be fair, I can't hit myself either, so, like, if a bug lands on me or something, I hit myself.  [00:20:30] Jason: Yeah, he starts getting around you and, like, trying to, like, climb on you and, like, protect you from yourself, yeah.  [00:20:36] Sarah: He does.  [00:20:37] Jason: And he'll get, try and get in between us and, like, prevent me from getting near her, yeah. [00:20:41] He does.  [00:20:42] Sarah: He does. So Parker was the first dog that I had ever rescued.  [00:20:45] Jason: He's like a nanny dog.  [00:20:46] Sarah: He is a nanny dog. We call him the nanny dog. He is. And we say, when he's doing his thing, I'm like, oh, he's nanny dogging again. Yeah. So, Parker, we've got Parker. And then after the whole Chance thing, we took a break for about eight months. [00:21:01] And then I thought, okay, well, what if we do a smaller dog? Because after that, Parker was more selective with bigger dogs. Rightfully so. That's his version of PTSD. So I thought, okay, well, maybe a smaller dog could work. And that is where Captain came in. So Captain just for reference, size reference, Parker varies between 80 and 85 pounds. [00:21:24] Jason: Big dog.  [00:21:24] Sarah: Captain is 14, 14 pounds.  [00:21:27] Jason: Yeah, Parker's tall like a lab, but built like a pit bull.  [00:21:30] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, so Captain is only 14 pounds. He's a little baby. He's about  [00:21:36] Jason: tiny  [00:21:37] Sarah: three or four ish He was we got him from a shelter about like an hour and a half away an hour 45 minutes away and Someone had him and his two brothers and decided they were done with him So they shoved them in a crate and they dropped them off at an animal shelter overnight  [00:21:56] Jason: Yeah, because it says you're not allowed to leave animals here. [00:21:59] So they secretly did it in the middle of the night, left the crate there.  [00:22:03] Sarah: On the doorstep. So the staff came in at 7 a. m. and found three dogs shoved in the crate. Huh. Super, super, don't be like these people, be better, okay? So, then him and Parker actually worked really well together and Like Captain just loves Parker so much. [00:22:21] He just loves him so much. Like I take Parker to the chiropractor and Captain stays here. And when I come back with Parker, Captain is way more excited to see Parker than he is to see me. He loves me so much, but he's like, just  [00:22:35] Jason: he's jumping all  [00:22:36] Sarah: over the moon about Parker. So Captain's our second rescue. [00:22:40] Jason: And Captain's, he's kind of a mutt. He, we did a DNA test on him.  [00:22:43] Sarah: Oh, no, he's a he's absolutely a mutt.  [00:22:45] Jason: Yeah, he's got Rat Terrier. He's got...  [00:22:48] Sarah: I think if you could do him in order, probably not.  [00:22:50] Jason: I don't know. Rat Terrier was probably the largest.  [00:22:52] Sarah: Rat Terrier is the largest. What's next? Then American Pit Bull Terrier, which is why he's brindle on the top. [00:22:57] Jason: Oh, yeah.  [00:22:58] Sarah: Huh. Yeah. Okay. Yep. American Pit Bull Terrier. Then Super Mutt.  [00:23:03] Jason: Yeah, that's what the That's a breed. Super Mutt.  [00:23:05] Sarah: I'm like, oh, wow. They call it a Super Mutt. Okay. Okay. It's like 14 percent Super Mutt. Huh. I think. Boston Terrier, Yorkshire Terrier, And then Dachshund, which is what we're told he was. [00:23:19] Jason: Yeah, and he's little. He's really little. He'll get in our face. All the time. Alright, so, next dog.  [00:23:27] Sarah: Yeah, so, we've had Captain for a little over a year now, and then I thought, okay let's foster. We won't adopt another one, but like, we'll foster, we'll, you know, help train it, kinda get it back on its feet, do something good, get it ready for a family. [00:23:42] And that's where Maynard came in.  [00:23:44] Jason: Mmm. Maynard.  [00:23:45] Sarah: That one, that, he's heartbreaking. So if any of you guys had followed us on social media, like, a lot of people I guess were checking in with you, like, how's Maynard? How's Maynard?  [00:23:55] Jason: Yeah it was hard to even look at him and not get emotional. This dog was so emaciated, so starving. [00:24:03] It was a bulldog. They found him in the, in San Antonio, on the street. And this is like in the height of summer. In 104 degree Texas heat, which, if you know anything about bulldogs, they can't breathe because their face is smushed. He was basically a skeleton with fur. If you see pictures or any of our, if you see it, you'll be like, Oh my gosh, like, how's this dog alive? [00:24:27] Yeah, he was covered in like over a hundred ticks. Yeah and he had all sorts of diseases and problems related to that.  [00:24:36] Sarah: Like lesions and wounds. Yeah, he had wounds.  [00:24:38] Jason: Burns it looked like all over his body? [00:24:40] Sarah: He may have hidden under a car that was hot and like burned himself on the hot car trying to find some shade. [00:24:47] Jason: Yeah. [00:24:47] Sarah: And cool himself down. Yeah  [00:24:49] Jason: It's super sad.  [00:24:51] Sarah: This dog was in bad shape. He was 25 pounds and he's supposed to be probably at least 50 or 60.  [00:24:57] Jason: Yeah, they spent And a whole evening trying to pull all the ticks off of him, like they had to give him a blood transfusion or he would have died. Like he was just, he was in bad shape,  [00:25:07] Sarah: He had two tick borne illnesses. [00:25:10] He had pneumonia. He needed a blood transfusion just to survive this. He was obviously severely emaciated and severely dehydrated. And eating, you can't just take a dog like that and shove a bunch of food like Edla, she was like, oh, we could just feed him a lot. And I'm like, you'll kill him. [00:25:29] He'll die. Yeah. So your body, very what happens when you're that far along is muscle atrophy. So your body will eat the muscle. So he had literally no muscle left on him anywhere.  [00:25:42] Jason: He didn't hardly walk  [00:25:42] Sarah: at all.  [00:25:43] Jason: He would just crumple over like he would like, yeah, he would try to walk. [00:25:46] You fall the time, man.  [00:25:47] Sarah: But he would try. He was really like, he tried. You'd think that a dog like this with this many problems would just say like, fuck it, I'm out. Like, I probably would. If I was up for it, I'd be like, alright, just, like, where's the plug? Pull it. Let's do it. But he did not. He did not want to give up. [00:26:04] He did not want to die.  [00:26:06] Jason: We had him for about a week?  [00:26:07] Sarah: We had him for a week. Yeah, we had him for a week.  [00:26:09] Jason: And then, like, he was in bad shape. I don't even think they should have let him come to us, but they didn't know all the stuff that was wrong with them. They  [00:26:15] Sarah: didn't, yeah, they didn't know everything because they didn't do the full like, scan. [00:26:19] Jason: So we had him for a week and took care of him, but we started to notice he was like, he was getting worse. So then we we reached out to the foster organization and then they took Maynard to the doctors and they were, like, he was in bad shape. His whole esophagus had been destroyed so he couldn't, like, move food down. [00:26:38] They've, we've, later they figured out, well, he just needs to sit upright, and like, gravity, and maybe that'll heal over time, I don't know, but he had a whole bunch of issues, but before they figured that out, they were like, this dog is in such bad shape. He's not really getting food down.  [00:26:53] Sarah: He's. Well, they didn't know what exactly. [00:26:54] Yeah, so they were about to put him down. When I brought him back to the vet. So they started doing some tests on him. They said he actually lost weight and I'm like that doesn't make sense. Like he's been with me for a week. He's eaten every day and he wants his food. Like he wants it, desperately wants his food. [00:27:11] And that doesn't, it doesn't make any sense. How did he lose weight? And they're like, I don't know. So then they found out that he had. A very rare parasitic infection that attacked his liver. He has heart disease. His pneumonia has gotten worse. And then they were trying to figure out the whole, why did he lose weight type situation? [00:27:38] And they ended up doing a scan. They did not think he was going to make it. They just, they didn't know. There was so much going on with him. Like issues as long as my arm, the list was as long as my arm and they didn't think he was going to make it. So the president of the organization, she let me know, she's like, I have to make a really tough decision right now. [00:27:59] Jason: And they put a lot of money towards this dog. The whole, like, a lot, thousands of dollars.  [00:28:03] Sarah: It was, I think his treatment was somewhere, All of it was like over like 7, 000 so far.  [00:28:09] Jason: Yeah, they were really doing everything they could to take care of this dog. But she was at the point where she was like, I think we're going to have to... yeah. [00:28:16] Sarah: Oh, and he was anemic on top of all of that. So he couldn't keep heat in.  [00:28:19] Jason: Okay.  [00:28:20] Sarah: Poor guy.  [00:28:20] Jason: So like, they were about to put him down. Right.  [00:28:25] Sarah: Yeah they decided like it doesn't seem like there's anything like he's too like he's just too far gone and The vet came in the room like with the shot and they said all right, let's give him like one last really awesome meal So they gave him mac and cheese and he Scarfed it down like you wouldn't even believe and that whole day and the whole day before he wasn't moving. [00:28:49] He wasn't walking. He wasn't really interested in anything. He was just very lethargic, very tired. He didn't, he did not care. Mac and cheese, he was like, what is that? Give me all of it. Perked right up for the mac and cheese. So the mac and cheese literally saved his life because he was minutes from being put down. [00:29:08] Said that she has never been that close to putting a dog down and then didn't do it.  [00:29:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:29:14] Yeah, but that gave her hope that, Hey, there's something here. There's some life in him. And he's, You know, he's motivated for some reason.  [00:29:22] Sarah: Yeah. And the vet who was going to euthanize him then, she said, there is something weird with this dog. [00:29:30] Like, it's just, there's something off. We don't know, like, is it okay if we do like the full scan? And she's like, if you think it'll help him, like, if you think that we can figure this out and save him so that he has some quality of life. So  [00:29:45] Jason: because of the mac and cheese, and seeing something that seemed a little bit off, because that like, he was so excited about that and he was eating it, they then did and he perked up, they did the scan and they found what? [00:29:59] Sarah: So in dogs, they call it a mega esophagus. So essentially, his esophagus doesn't work. They think that he may have, back like when he was dumped on the side of the road, and also, I should, we should have said this, he was intact, so we think that he was used for breeding. And then when he got too far along, these fuckers dumped him on the side of the road. [00:30:21] So they're number two on the hit list. I will find them and they're not even far from me. I will go get them. So they dumped him on the side of the road. When he was on the side of the road they think that he either ate something or drank something that was toxic and messed up his whole esophagus. [00:30:38] Yeah. [00:30:39] So that's why he was eating food, but it was all impacted in his esophagus. Hardly any of it was actually getting through to his stomach.  [00:30:47] Jason: Yeah,  [00:30:48] Sarah: so they found that out and Bruni the president of the organization said well wait a second when he was with his fosters like he had a bowel movement So something had to have gotten through like what can we do? [00:30:59] She's like, what if we like prop them up. They have like a little Bailey chair, but they didn't have one there. So they made a makeshift one out of like blankets and cardboard.  [00:31:07] They're like, what if we do like a makeshift Bailey chair, test it for 24 hours, see if any food actually gets through into the stomach because that is a treatable condition. [00:31:17] Now, if they're born with it and then that's really hard. But he wasn't born with it. Something destroyed his esophagus. So they said, oh, that's like, it's a treatable condition. So what if we try this, give him 24 hours, and then he's got to show us that he can get some food and medication down into his stomach because all the medication for all of the problems, it wasn't even getting into his system. [00:31:46] Jason: Medicine, food, nothing was making it.  [00:31:48] Sarah: Nothing. No water. Like he had a couple bowel movements with us. So like Something must have, but not. Not the way he should have been. So after a 24 hour hold, he had a full stomach of food.  [00:32:02] Jason: Yeah, they figured out he just needed gravity. Like they just had to prop him up. [00:32:06] So he's sitting up like a human eating, you know, and he was perfectly happy to eat. Like he was a hungry dog. So then he went to be taken care of full time by the foster organization. Yeah [00:32:18] Sarah: He has multiple medications he has to eat like a very small strict  [00:32:23] Jason: And she has a lot of dogs at her place that she's taking care of so she asked if she had another foster. She said could you take this dog Silver? Yeah So then we got Silver was the next...  [00:32:33] Sarah: oh, wait. The thing I want to say about Maynard is that he had every reason to give up and he had every reason, multiple reasons. [00:32:43] Like he had like literally so many health problems.  [00:32:46] Jason: Yeah. And everybody around him had multiple reasons to give up on him. .  [00:32:48] Sarah: He had every reason to not trust humans and every reason to be like a nasty, vicious dog. And he just wasn't he was not he was so sweet and he loved to like just shove his little smush face into me And just nuzzle it and when it was in there, he still wasn't close enough He was still like pushing trying to get closer Because I think that was the first time he ever experienced love and even though he had every single reason stacked up against him. [00:33:19] Like the odds were not at all in his favor. There's no reason that this dog should technically be alive. It's only because he's so freaking stubborn. He did not want to give up on himself. Even through all of that, even through all of that, he didn't want to give up on himself. So when we were going through all of that, like with him, I was telling people like when I would run my scale calls on Fridays, my our operations call, I was telling people like. [00:33:45] If this dog can go through everything that he went through and still push through whatever is happening in your business, whatever is happening in your life, whatever is happening in your marriage, in your friendships, in your relationships, you can push through it. Because every single time that they thought they had the issue figured out, there were like five more issues that popped up with him. [00:34:08] Jason: Yeah, just tell yourself you're not yet at Maynard level. You can handle it though. He also had a really good support mechanism around him eventually, right? And I think that's also there's a little lesson in that is that you need If you're going to go through tough stuff, it's a lot better to have the right support around you and to have people that believe in you, even when you might feel like giving up, and that, you know, can see that you can be better. [00:34:36] And we need those. We need those people around us. And so if you don't have that in your business, it's probably feeling pretty hard because you're doing, you feel like it's all up to you and you're all on your own. And that's a dumb way to grow business. It just is. All right. Next dog.  [00:34:54] Sarah: Okay. So the medical foster that took Maynard after his second, third ER stint she said, Hey, like I, I cannot take another foster, but I have to take Maynard. [00:35:05] Can you take Silver? And then that gives me room to take Maynard. And I said, so Silver, like this is Austin Bulldog Rescue. They largely work with bulldogs. It's not only bulldogs, but most of them are bulldogs. Silver is not a bulldog. He looks like some sort of terrier. I think he had very terrier fur. But he was little, like 30 pounds. [00:35:28] Very high energy. He was probably like in his teenage phase. They also found him on the side of the road in San Antonio. The sad thing about him, though, is he had like, he was house trained. He had like house manners. So he lived in a house at one point. And Either escaped or was dumped, but he was hanging out with a pack of dogs and the bulldogs He was like, these are my friends and the rescue were saving all the dogs and they were like, okay There's like this other dog like what do we do? [00:35:58] And she's like, well, you can't leave him like come on he's an honorary bulldog now. So so they They fostered him, took him in, and then we had him. We had him for about a week, and he already had some applications coming in on him, and he got rehomed to a family that I think is a great fit for him. [00:36:17] Jason: Yeah.  [00:36:18] Sarah: They're such a good fit.  [00:36:19] Jason: Silver had a lot of energy. Yes. He was like doggy teenager. He had a ton of energy, super excited, loved running around. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:36:30] Sarah: And they're like, we want to go for a walk every day. And we like to go on hikes and we like to go camping and we'll bring the dogs. And I was like, Oh, he would like,  [00:36:37] Jason: he'll love that. [00:36:38] Sarah: He would love that. He would love that. And every dog that Silver saw, he wanted to play with every single one of them. And then they have another dog. So it was just figuring out, are those two going to be nice to each other? And they're great. He was very like respectful of her boundaries, which none of us had seen previous to that. [00:36:57] So that was really good. And they're doing great so far. And then. The woman that adopted him, she sends me pictures of him. Like, she's like, just so you know, he's doing great. I'm like, oh, thank you. Thanks for sending that.  [00:37:09] Jason: All right. Next.  [00:37:11] Sarah: Next is this guy behind me.  [00:37:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:37:14] Sarah: Baby. [00:37:15] So we wanted to do another foster. Bulldogs are a lot of work, like so much work. And we went to a shelter that's local and we were looking, I was looking online for a dog that was not small, but also not large. So he's like 44 pounds ish. He's  [00:37:37] Jason: got a bit of a cough right now.  [00:37:39] Sarah: Yeah, he had kennel cough. [00:37:41] So we're. working on clearing that up with him and they don't know a whole lot about him. They found him as a stray in Round Rock but that's also so sad because he's so sweet and like he's house trained and he's got manners and I'm like, oh, Jason keeps saying he's like this somebody's like some family's dog like they must be missing their dog and I'm like, it was in the shelter for over a month. [00:38:06] So yeah, like Parker goes missing. I'm not sleeping until I find him.  [00:38:11] Jason: Sure. [00:38:11] Sarah: You know, I would there would be a bolo out on it everything like I would call the SWAT team like Everybody would be involved. So now we are fostering Hans and We're looking for a forever family for him. Although we might foster fail and keep them ourselves. [00:38:30] We'll see but we're That's what it called. It's foster fail.  [00:38:33] Jason: Oh. Yeah. This one's hard to not  [00:38:37] Sarah: The first day we got him, the two kids and Jason were already pushing me. They're like, we could just keep him.  [00:38:44] Jason: He's a special dog.  [00:38:45] Sarah: It didn't take long. They're like, we could just, and I thought I was going to be the one who was weak. [00:38:49] I thought I was going to be the one who says like, oh, we should keep him. Like, let's just keep him.  [00:38:54] Jason: Yeah.  [00:38:55] Sarah: And shockingly enough, I was the one that was like, yes, but like, we're fostering so we can help more dogs. And the three of them, they're like, but we can just keep him. He's so perfect. Aren't you perfect? [00:39:07] So if he gets along with our other two, then. I think we might keep them. We'll see. See what happens. So. All right. So there's our dog story. That's the current. That's what Jason wanted to talk about dog thing  [00:39:20] Jason: today. So, you know, gives you a little glimpse into, I guess, what? Our personal lives a little bit. [00:39:27] Some of the things that Sarah cares about that we care about. And yeah, so. Dogs. So if you like dogs, then maybe you enjoyed this episode and maybe you learned something. I don't know. All right. Well, I think that's it for today. Until next time to our mutual growth, everybody, if you're wanting to grow your property management business, you can use some extra support, then reach out to us. [00:39:50] You can check us out at doorgrow. com and be sure to join our free Facebook group. If you are a property management business owner or planning on starting a property management business in the near future, go to doorgrowclub.Com and join our free community and that's it. Bye everybody. [00:40:09] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:40:35] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

If you are existing in your property management business but you aren't enjoying it, you might be in property management hell. In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull explain how to escape property management hell. You'll Learn [01:19] How do you know if you are in property management hell? [05:40] How to escape property management hell [07:33] How do you know if you are in property management hell? [10:32] What does an operator do in a property management business? Tweetables “So if you are existing, living in your business and you're not enjoying it and it's frustrating… then you might be in property management hell.” “There's definitely something to be said about working hard. There's definitely a time and a season for this.” “We have to get to the next level, and what got you to where you are now is not going to help you move forward.” “You can still be miserable and have an entire team.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: You will have more fulfillment, more freedom, more contribution, and more support in your business as it grows. [00:00:05] And this is the right way to do it. This will change your life. [00:00:09]  [00:00:10] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, and unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the founder and CEO and the COO of DoorGrow. [00:01:15] Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:18] Welcome everybody. So we were thinking about what to talk about today, and one of the things that I coached clients on this week in depth was this idea of how to escape property management hell. So let's talk about how to escape property management hell. So if you are existing, living in your business and you're not enjoying it and it's frustrating, you've got an entire team and you're wondering 'why won't they just think for themselves?' And you're stressed out and you're tired of dealing with all the escalated situations where your team couldn't handle it like tenants and owners, and you're still wearing a whole bunch of hats that you don't enjoy wearing, you're still doing a lot of stuff in the business that you really don't wake up in the morning and go, "man, I'm excited to do that thing today," then you might be in property management hell. This is not property management heaven. This is not the place you're supposed to stay. And so if you're not enjoying that we're going to talk about how to get out of that. And it's not that complicated of a process. We're not going to go into a ton of detail cause we don't have a ton of time. [00:02:20] Not as in depth as we would in coaching our clients, but we're going to give you the high level overview so you can understand that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. All right. So what do you notice with clients that they're doing and what's going on when they are in hell? What sort of frustrations and challenges are you hearing? [00:02:40] Sarah: Overwhelmed. They're overworked. They're crazy busy. Most of it is just busy work. [00:02:46] It needs to be done, but it's not high level things that a business owner would need to do. They're working lots and lots of hours. Sometimes it might be eight, 10, 12, 15 hours a day. Sometimes it's seven days a week. Usually it's at least six and then they do a little bit on the seventh day, but they don't really fully get time off and they're just responding to everything as it comes in and they're trying to handle everything and they're frustrated and they're just very stressed out.  [00:03:23] Jason: Yeah, I was talking with a past client who may end up, probably end up joining our mastermind program. I think we'd worked together four or five years ago, helped him with his website and some different stuff. And he's been using some of the stuff he learned and he was really excited to tell me how far he's come and he's like at 700 units and I think he was small when he came to me, I don't remember, maybe 50 or something, and so he's really excited about the progress he has. [00:03:50] Then he was telling me he's working 17 hour days, some days, like he's working these crazy hours and he's going through these cycles of growth and like working crazy hard and then stopping the growth so that he can focus on building up the business and operations and doing a lot of the onboarding of the properties and then he goes back into this cycle and he hasn't taken a legit vacation since he started the business. [00:04:17] And he goes on vacations, but he's on his phone the whole time. He's not totally available. And this is not a sustainable thing. Now he's just done it through sheer drive and will. To his credit, he's like, "nobody will outwork me." This is like a badge of honor for him. And he works incredibly hard and he's like, that's why he's had more success than any of his competitors is he's just willing to outwork all of them. [00:04:43] And there's definitely something to be said about working hard. There's definitely a time and a season for this. And if all of you or any of you are being lazy, work a little harder. Like do some hard work for a little while to get to that next level. But we want more fulfillment and more freedom. And I wasn't getting a sense from this gentleman that he was experiencing fulfillment and freedom. [00:05:03] To me, that sounds like hell. It's like a treadmill that you feel like you've created and you have to keep running on to keep the business going. And he's going to burn out. And you know, he even mentioned like it's affecting his health, it's affecting his body, you know, and it's probably impacting his relationships, you know? [00:05:21] And so a lot of guys get into this stage and I think women do it as well. Everybody does this in business where they get into this mode of growth and work and hustle. And that's how we get businesses going. We have to get to the next level, and what got you to where you are now is not going to help you moving forward. [00:05:38] You have to start to get out of the way. And so the way to escape this property management hell, this cycle of endless work and torment is we need to figure out what help do we need in the business? A lot of people go, "well, just offload stuff." Yeah, but how do you know what you actually should offload? [00:05:58] Because the big mistake people make is they go hire what they think the business needs and they keep helping the business. And this gentleman and many others I've talked to have an entire team and they're still stressing themselves out. You can still be miserable and have an entire team. Some of you listening are like, "yeah that's me. I've got an entire team and I'm miserable," right? So, how do we escape that? Here's how we figure out what you need. Because if we instead shift it to figuring out what you need, then this will be a game changer. So, the first thing we do is, we have our clients do a time study.  [00:06:30] We have a sponsor and our sponsor is Venderoo, which we're getting some great feedback on from clients. Tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination. Meet Venderoo, your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish. Triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection, and coordination built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability. Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at Vendoroo, VENDOROO dot ai/doorgrow and experience maintenance done right. And I'll just add one of our clients had 80 work orders in his first day of turning Vendoroo, the AI thing on, he had 80 work orders closed out. Another client had 54 work orders closed out in their first day as well. [00:07:29] Like we're in this AI revolution. So I highly recommend you check these guys out. It's very cool.  [00:07:33] Okay, so back to what I was saying is here's the strategy. You do a time study. This time study will help you figure out what you're doing every 15 minutes and you're going to categorize your time based on whether it's tactical or strategic and you're going to figure out which things are your plus signs or your minus signs. [00:07:50] We have a whole process for this and a training on how to do this and you want to do this once a quarter. This will move the business forward more than most anything else that you could do. And it'll help you get out of the way. You do the time study, figure out plus and minus signs. Then you create a job description. [00:08:04] We call those R docs because each section starts with an R, ultimate Rdoc job description for yourself and your team members creates a ton of clarity. And so you get these Rdocs created, you create one for yourself, and then you highlight the things that you no longer want to be doing, or that are your tactical minus signs that are the things you're working in the business instead of on the business, which is strategic. And so then you take that and build out a new Rdoc for your ideal candidate and hire. And this needs to be a single personality type, not like, "Oh, I need somebody to do some sales stuff and some accounting stuff and some operations stuff." [00:08:41] No, those are weird people called entrepreneurs. Don't do that. Pick one realistic human being that's not entrepreneurial like a specialist. So that might be a really good executive assistant. And then you'll have a really good job description, move all the things on that job description that would be for that person. [00:08:58] And then you put that out to the marketplace. Now, if you want to do this correctly, DoorGrow hiring is the game changer. This is where you stop playing Russian roulette and you attract the right personality type for the role. So they will actually be good at it and the right cultural fit so that you will actually trust them. [00:09:15] It's not just about finding somebody willing to do the work or that has the skill, but you also need to find somebody that's intelligent enough to be able to learn and adapt to you and to be able to do this. And then if you start building your team this way, you will have a team built around the right person would because you're adjusting yourself every quarter, you're improving yourself every quarter, you're moving closer and closer to your plus signs and more of what energizes you, and then you're going to do this with all of your team members. You're going to have them do time studies and identify their strengths and what they enjoy doing, and your team will get better and better. And you will have more fulfillment, more freedom, more contribution, and more support in your business as it grows. [00:09:51] And this is the right way to do it. This will change your life. This is going to make you have a business that you actually enjoy being in that you're less and less involved in over time and that you're the only pieces you're still holding on to are the pieces you love. And so this is a business that is built to sell if you do want to exit because you're systematically exiting from the right pieces of the business. [00:10:15] And there's the right accountability. And then you need to get a really good operating system like DoorGrow OS, where you have a good planning system and you need to get a good operator to run this system and to run the business. And that will legitimately change your life. Having Sarah as an operator, changes my life. [00:10:31] Anything you'll add to this?  [00:10:32] Sarah: I think aside from the fact that people don't know what an operator is because everyone goes, "Oh yeah, I'm going to hire somebody for operations. And these are all the things they're going to do." They are not handling tactical work. [00:10:42] Your operator is not talking with tenants. Your operator is not talking with your clients. They are not involved in maintenance, rent collection, evictions, owner statements. They don't do any of those things. That is all front end, front line work. And your operator, no one will even know who your operator is because they don't talk to anybody in the business except for you and your team. [00:11:03] They're all back end. So they're very strategically involved in the business, which is very different. So they are responsible for the inner workings of your business and how things are progressing and moving forward. And are you guys running your strategic planning meetings? Are we on track for our weekly goals and our monthly goals, our quarterly goals, and most importantly, our big annual goal? Are we doing daily huddles? Are we attracting the right team members? Do we have the right team members? Do we have the right people in the right seats and the right roles in the business? If not, we need to make some adjustments. Do we have Rdocs and job descriptions for every single person? [00:11:47] Are they up to date? Are our processes documented? Are they up to date and are they actually being used? Or do we just have this library of processes that nobody ever looks at? And then we spent hours and hours wasting time because now nobody ever uses them or looks at them. Right? So hiring, firing, strategic planning, daily huddles, your team check ins... how are things going with your team? [00:12:11] If you don't know, and you're not regularly having these meetings, then you are missing out. Because your team will know things that you don't know, as soon as you get out of that role, and have somebody else fully in it. They're now going to know things that you don't know. So you have to rely on communication with your team to understand, "hey, is there some sort of cog that we don't know about now because I don't handle leasing anymore? But is there a big problem with leasing that we can probably shore up somewhere?" So, these are the things that your operator does. The operator and the CEO, they go together very well. They're like yin and yang. [00:12:51] One will balance the other out, but they work hand in hand, and your operator does all of the things back end in the business to make sure that the business is growing and running well, and that you have the right team. So, your operator, just so you know, has absolutely nothing to do with front end work. [00:13:09] They just kind of look over the people who do.  [00:13:12] Jason: They're not your property manager. They're not your maintenance coordinator. They're not your accountant.  [00:13:17] Sarah: No.  [00:13:18] Jason: They're not a lot of things. They're not your executive assistant. [00:13:21] Sarah: They don't do move ins. They don't do move outs. They don't talk to tenants ever. And they don't talk to clients.  [00:13:28] Jason: No. They will run your business and they will change your life, right? And this will free you up to be more of a visionary entrepreneur in your business, which is what the business needs. It needs somebody leading not working. Cool. Preach! Preach, Sarah. I'm like I'm going to let her cook. [00:13:44] She's going! [00:13:45] Sarah: I hear it because I hear it all the time, "Oh, I need an operator. Great. What are the things they're going to do?" [00:13:50] "Oh, they're going to handle my admin work. They're going to do my leasing." Not an operator. Right. Great, fantastic, that's the role that you need. [00:13:57] It's not an operator.  [00:13:58] Jason: Operator is not a worker. They're like, "I need a worker. I need a worker to do work." There's a little confusion there. Okay, cool. So, in short, operator is going to help with people, planning, and process in the business. We call those three systems that are key part of the super system. [00:14:15] So if this is of interest to any of you listening and you would like to get things flowing and working really well in your business and find these game changing people to build out your team so that you've got the right people to help you grow it, the right people to help you scale it, the right people to help you run it, then reach out to DoorGrow. [00:14:33] We would love to coach and support you and help you get your business to the next level. And that's it for today.  [00:14:40] Sarah: Oh, and if you're not yet in our facebook group, you should check that out!  [00:14:44] Jason: Oh, yeah DoorGrowclub.Com. Join our facebook group. All right until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:14:52] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:15:18] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In May, we had our annual DoorGrow Live event! What makes DoorGrow Live different from other property management conferences? In today's episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about our most recent DoorGrow Live conference and some of the topics discussed. You'll Learn [01:12] What was different about this year's DoorGrow Live? [04:48] Tactics vs. Mindset [06:41] Changing the order of your priorities [10:17] Hard choices, easy life Tweetables “Tactics and the how can always be figured out.” “It's not really the tactics that are the problem. It's almost always the mindset.” “The hard choice is to not go for what you immediately want, but to reorder and prioritize some things that are more relevant to the long term.” “If you don't like the results, then it's probably because your priorities are not in the right order.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: If you don't like the results, then it's probably because your priorities are not in the right order.  [00:00:08] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:00:53] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hall, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. Okay.  [00:01:12] And so what we're going to be talking about today is we just had DoorGrow Live and DoorGrow Live was a success. It was a lot of fun and it was a little bit different this year. So how would you say it was different this year, Sarah?  [00:01:27] Sarah: So I think a lot of people were saying, "Hey, it feels like there was really just a lot of heart that went into this event." [00:01:35] So usually when I think you and I run events, we're very tactical. How do you do this? How do you do that? And let's share this strategy and let's talk about this thing. And this year we changed things up a little bit and you were maybe a little hesitant to follow the formula that I put together, might I add. [00:01:53] And so maybe on the podcast you can tell people that It worked?  [00:01:57] Jason: It worked.  [00:01:58] Sarah: And? Do you have anything else to say about that?  [00:02:00] Jason: Anyone that knows Sarah knows what she wants to hear right now. You were right. There it is! There it is. There it is. That's what she wanted. There it is.  [00:02:10] Sarah: So this year when I was putting together the schedule and the agenda, there was this whole plan that I had. [00:02:17] And I was like, "Oh no, we need to order things like this and do things like this. And this is what I wanted." And he's like, " I don't know if that's going to work. And why are we doing this whole thing? And we're like putting this whole thing together. And like, you don't even know if it's going to work the way you want." [00:02:30] Jason: Is this how I sound?  [00:02:31] Sarah: Yes.  [00:02:32] Jason: "I don't know if it's gonna work."  [00:02:34] Sarah: "I don't know if it's gonna work."  [00:02:36] Jason: That's totally what I sound like.  [00:02:38] Sarah: It was perfect.  [00:02:39] Jason: I'm shaking my head no, by the way, for the listeners.  [00:02:41] Sarah: See you probably, they probably didn't even know that was me talking. They just thought it was you.  [00:02:45] Jason: Oh, yeah. [00:02:46] You do such a good impersonation of me. I know. It's really quite impressive. I'll go back to my normal voice so that you realize it's Sarah talking. Yeah, for the listeners, we need to make sure there's two distinct voices or they're going to be really confused why I'm talking to myself because you sound so much like me. [00:03:03] Sarah: I know. I'm so sorry if I confused anyone.  [00:03:06] Jason: Nobody was confused. Okay. So...  [00:03:08] Sarah: so he was giving me a little bit of a hard time about it because I, like, made him sit down and map this out and I was like, "no, there's a formula that we're supposed to follow and this is what I want it to look like." And I think it worked out really well. [00:03:21] Jason: Yeah, the event went really well.  [00:03:23] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:03:24] Jason: Things ran pretty much like clockwork. That's hard. It's hard to do that in events. Like speakers go over, people don't stop. Like, we had this big, huge red LED clock right in front of the speaker. So it was like super obvious, like, and we, I think we had conversations with all the speakers, like everything worked pretty smoothly. [00:03:43] The general feedback I got from a lot of clients one of our clients, Ed Golding, came up to me and he was just smiling. He'd been to some previous ones and he said, "this was different, you know, what was different about this?" I said, "what, Ed? " He said, "heart, this one had heart." [00:03:56] And it was an emotional event. There was lot more emotion at this event. Did we talk about tactics? Yes. I explained how I've been able to leverage social media and different tools and, I've made millions of dollars off social media. And I shared some really cool tools and very tactical stuff. [00:04:12] That's how I opened up the event. But we got into a lot of mindset and what we've realized over time, that we talked about at the event that most of our clients are not winning or losing because they don't, or do have tactics. Tactics and the how can always be figured out. And I liked Jeff Garner's tattoo he talked about but....  [00:04:33] Sarah: he's funny.  [00:04:33] Jason: He's like, " can I say it? There's children present." I had my kids at the event.  [00:04:36] Sarah: They're my kids. Like they hear it all the time.  [00:04:40] Jason: Yeah, so he's got a tattoo that's FTH Which stands for "fuck the how" so and so a lot of times people are so worried about "how do I do this? How do I do this?" And we do share tactics. We do a lot of that at DoorGrow. However, It's not really the tactics that are the problem. It's almost always the mindset. And so whenever I teach tactics. I always am going into the why behind it and the mindset stuff. And when they start to understand this stuff, then they will actually do it usually. [00:05:13] So there was a lot of mindset at the event. And then also, there's vulnerability. Like I openly shared how I've been reevaluating my priorities and what those look like and how how that looks. You were sharing about your upbringing and how like the difficult things in life are also the things that make us who we are and help us to enable us to help others and how to view it through a different lens, which I thought was really awesome. [00:05:39] And everybody's crying. Sarah's making everybody cry. Like I was crying, like...  [00:05:44] Sarah: I made people cry in a very different way this time though. I'm usually making people cry because I'm yelling at them.  [00:05:50] Jason: That's not true.  [00:05:51] Sarah: It's a little true. It's a little true.  [00:05:54] Jason: Not our clients, just me.  [00:05:56] Sarah: No, I don't do, but I do give our clients tough love when they need it. [00:05:59] And Kelly came to the event and she's like, "this is exactly what I needed." I'm like, "I know that's why I was on you for like three months." [00:06:07] Jason: Yeah. I think some people had some breakthroughs, which that's the goal. Like we want to change lives. And so there's something just really beautiful about this DoorGrow Live. [00:06:16] There was a lot of more depth to it and I just feel grateful to be able to be part of it and to see, our clients that believe in us and that, that came in just seeing their progress and, there are people there that have been in our program for years, which is just. [00:06:29] It's really awesome to see. So, so I thought I would share just a little bit today about what I had shared and this will be a quick episode cause Sarah doesn't want me to go long. So this'll be a quick one.  [00:06:41] Sarah: Back to back today.  [00:06:42] Jason: You got a busy day. So what I shared is I talked a little bit about prioritization and I've talked about this previously, but what what was interesting, one of my breakthroughs recently was recognizing I was basically merging in my mind, the five basic needs. [00:06:57] Which I don't know who put that out. We learned it from our friend Roya.  [00:07:01] Sarah: But maybe it was... [00:07:02] Jason: maybe it's Tony Robbins. I don't know. So there's five basic needs and the five basic needs are love and belonging, power and achievement fun and adventure, fun and pleasure, safety and security. [00:07:15] Sarah: And I'll see when you put them in a weird order, then I don't remember them. Freedom and flexibility.  [00:07:20] Jason: Freedom and flexibility. Freedom. There we go. Yeah. Okay. These are five basic needs and we all have one that's primary. For Sarah, it's power and achievement. Nobody's surprised, right? For me, it's actually love and belonging. [00:07:33] And a lot of my achievement and a lot of the things that I do. Are to, that's what motivates that we're helping clients working with clients love and belonging and having that connection. That's why I like working with entrepreneurs because I don't feel like such a weirdo when I'm around other people that are that weird, that are also entrepreneurial. [00:07:51] But what I've come to realize that if I make that my highest priority, I tend to get less of it. And I think this is true for anyone with their basic need. If you really think about it, if Sarah just went after power and achievement. And didn't prioritize like relationships and other things, it could be pretty destructive and it would likely have the opposite desired effect in trying to achieve power and whatnot, right? [00:08:13] Because we need others. And then for me, if I'm just going after love and belonging, I would be less likely to get it. If I didn't have my own oxygen mass first, if I didn't have financial wealth and health, if I didn't have physical health then it wouldn't be nearly as effective. I wouldn't be nearly as present. [00:08:31] I wouldn't be able to enjoy much love and connection or belonging, in relationships. I wouldn't be able to feed into relationships as much if I weren't taking care of myself. And so based on that I, I had everybody map out or stack or list their priorities in their life, and then I showed how my priorities were listed and then Like what my natural inclination is placing like love and belonging at the top. [00:08:59] And then I showcased how I've intentionally consciously listed them and rearranged the priority and how that affects my decision making in my day to day so that I spend more of my time in my day to day moving towards the top priorities, which are not on my new adjusted priority list are not the love and connection related things related to family, sex, relationship, stuff like that. So above that, I've placed God at the top which is, for some of you that might be your highest ideal, whatever that is. And so I want to always be pointed towards my highest ideal. Second, I put power, achievement, impact, and that's related money status, all that. [00:09:41] And that allows me to have impact. Which leads to me getting what I want. It's a leading sort of thing. And then the next is health. I need to be prioritizing health. And then it gets into more of the relationship stuff in the priorities. Whereas before I was putting family, friends, fun was probably higher on the list, but I felt like I wasn't ever able to do as much of that as I wanted. [00:10:04] Because I was so focused on the other stuff. And so by reordering the priorities, it takes work. Like it takes effort to go towards what's easy and what's natural usually leads to a harder life. And so there's this stoic phrase that I like that is "hard choices, easy life. Easy choices, hard life." [00:10:26] And the hard choice is to not go for what you immediately want, but to reorder and prioritize some things that are more relevant to the long term, playing the long game, doing what maybe I feel deep down inside I should do connected when I'm connected to God or focusing on my health, doing the playing the long game instead of doing the short term, right? [00:10:49] The short term is like eat, Häagen Dazs vanilla ice cream, vanilla bean ice cream. It's like my favorite right now. I love that. Or whatever, right? When we're just trying to please our tongue and our genitals, we tend to have a much harder life, right? And this is the short term. We're just going for the short term gain. [00:11:05] And so we want to make sure we prioritize the long game, the long term. and give up where that means sacrifice in the short term. That means work. That means effort. And a lot of people just aren't putting in enough work or enough effort in the lazy people in society are the people that are always trying to please their tongue and their genitals. [00:11:24] Maybe it's crass, my crass way of saying it. Okay. It's a little gross. Okay. So that's what I shared at DoorGrow Live. And so I encourage all of you listening, like make a list. What are your priorities? And what I shared is your results reveal your priorities. So if you don't like the results in your life, write them down. [00:11:43] Like, what are your relationships like? What's your business like? What are you doing in the business? What aren't you doing in the business? Or what are you enjoying? What are you not enjoying? And if you don't like the results, then it's probably because your priorities are not in the right order. It doesn't mean you give up or change your priorities, right? All of the things that were my priorities before are still priorities for me. I've just rearranged the order and by just rearranging the order, it changes everything. It changes the results that you get and you'll get more of the results that you really desire if you rearrange those priorities in a way that probably will take you more effort and more work, but will allow you to get everything that you want in the long run. [00:12:28] So that was my message. That's the simple message. Rearrange your priorities figure out your basic need, put that lower on the list, and figure out what needs to come before in order for you to have as much of that as possible because I want you to enjoy your life, but you need to do make hard choices. [00:12:41] And you need to do hard things.  [00:12:43] But it was an awesome event and make sure you are keeping an eye on doorgrowlive.com for the future and make sure to attend in the future. [00:12:52] Everybody says our conferences are different than any other property management conference out there. And That's a good thing. Like we do it in a good way. So, I recommend you attend. So you can check out more details about future events at doorgrowlive.Com. And if you are wanting to grow your property management business and have success like our clients were showcasing at DoorGrow Live and grow your business, scale your operations, have a better lifestyle, enjoy your team more, enjoy your business, be less frustrated, have more peace, reach out to us at DoorGrow. You can check us out at DoorGrow.com. We would love to see if we can help you scale your business. And until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:13:36] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:14:02] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Join us for an insightful episode of the VRTAC-QM Manager Minute as Brittny MacIver and Sarah Clardy from the VRTAC-QM team share their expertise on case management systems. Brittny, an expert in Program and Performance within our Quality Management team, and Sarah, the Program Director for Fiscal and Resource Management, delve into best practices and the growing trend of states seeking to upgrade their systems. Learn about the nuances of state requests and the RFP process, and gain valuable knowledge to help you decide whether it's time to stay with your current system or make a move. Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music}   Brittny: Avoid over customizing the system. There's a lot of systems out there that are already available in VR agencies, and so if it works for that VR agency, there's a good chance the majority of the processes are going to work for your agency as well.   Sarah: Silos, how do we break down silos? And this process really can be a nice segue to combining program and fiscal together. I know we've said that multiple times, and I don't think we can say it enough. This process really is an opportunity to develop relationships.   Brittny: Be curious. Your agency may have a process that you're unsure why it exists. Some may say that's how it's always been. I think it's good to be curious, figure out the reason behind it, and see if there's a way that you can streamline those processes.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Today I'm thrilled to have two of my esteemed colleagues, Brittny MacIver and Sarah Clardy from the VRTAC-QM, joining me in the studio today. So, Brittny, how's it going for you?   Brittny: It's going great. How about you?   Carol: Awesome. I'm better for seeing your smiling face this morning. And how about you, Miss Clardy? How are you doing?   Sarah: I'm great. Great to kick off a new week.   Carol: Excellent. So for our listeners, Brittny serves on the program and performance side of our QM team. And Sarah is the program director for the fiscal and resource management side of our QM team. And both of these ladies have extensive experience with case management systems. And during one of our regular Core QM Team meetings, I asked the team, I'm like, hey, what are some potential podcast ideas? And Brittny said, you know what? There are a lot of state voc rehab agencies on a quest right now for a new case management system. Either your state is requesting you to do another request for proposal or you're just like, hey, is there something better out there? So with lots of new players that have entered the market, your case management system is a lifeline. And if it's not functioning optimally, it can really lead to some significant issues. So we just wanted to have a conversation today that can help to guide you through this journey with open eyes. So let's dig in. So of course our listeners always like to know, like how did you people get into VR? Everybody wonders, like what's your story? So I want to hear from each of you about kind of your journey into VR. So Sarah, I'm going to kick it off with you.   Sarah: So many of you know Ron Vessell, he's a staple around VR. Ron actually hired me back in the year 2000. I was a very green government accountant just starting out, didn't know what I was getting into, and they took a chance on a new, young professional. And so I did a deep dive early in my career and never looked back.   Carol: Very nice, I love that. How about you, Britt? How did you find your way into VR? You came a little different way.   Brittny: Yeah, I think it was definitely a unique path. I actually worked in criminal justice at the prison system as a counselor for quite some time. They were privatizing the position, which meant we were kind of losing benefits. We're no longer going to be a state employee. So I started looking around for other counseling positions. And at my time at the prison, I found that there was a lot of individuals with disabilities and a lot of obstacles that we had to address and assist with while we were there. And so when I seen the position at VR, I was very interested in it interviewed. And that's where I got my start about 14 years ago.   Carol: And which state was that in? Britt.   Brittny: That was in.Indiana.   Carol: Yeah. That's cool. I think that's great. So you worked with Teresa?   Brittny: Yes.   Carol: Very good.   Brittny: I always joke and say my four years at the prison. And then I have to clarify when I was working.   Carol: I love that. In fact, we had a guest last month that also had come up through the correctional system as well. It was really fun, but that definitely having that skill set behind you coming into VR is super important, really needed. So let's talk a little bit about your work. Both of you do for the QM. Just so our listeners have a little sense. And Britt, I'm going to start with you about that. Like can you give them a little flavor kind of for what you do in this TA world?   Brittny: Yeah, as you mentioned I work on the performance team. So really all things performance. But we help agencies address performance related needs. So this can be anywhere from training on performance measures to data analysis on performance data, reviewing policy procedures, internal controls and sometimes even assessing the system impact around performance and seeing how that impacts the reporting pieces.   Carol: Yeah, I love our performance team, the stuff you guys do, and you're so good at your analysis and really looking at taking that data and really digging in deep as to what's going on. So it's a very, very important piece of what is happening out there for our VR programs as we're delivering that technical assistance. How about you, Sarah?   Sarah: I have the great pleasure of leading the financial arm of the VRTACQM, and understanding that the VR award is the probably the most complex award within the grants management world. It really covers a wide array of skills and knowledge and isn't just financial based, it's also program based. So under the QM, we help agencies sort of manage the grant from the whole life cycle perspective, making sure that all the federal requirements are met, taking a look at individual state requirements, how those two things intersect, and we spend a lot of time, probably the majority of my time is actually spent in the period of performance arena, and specifically as it relates to this topic today with case management service systems.   Carol: Excellent. So, Brittny, you had mentioned the issue of people are looking for a new case management system. And I know as of late it feels like we've had at least a half a dozen folks saying, you know, we're doing a new RFP. We either have to for the state or we're going out for a new system. What advice do you have kind of off the bat for people who are considering venturing into this new RFP process?   Brittny: Yeah, I think before writing the RFP, I think it's important for the state or the agency to do some research on what systems are out there. A lot of agencies are writing an RFP based on what their current system does, and they end up with a very similar system. The process and all the hard work of getting a new system can be really exciting. It could mean new innovative features and easier case management process, which leads to improved efficiency, improve services and outcomes. You could find a system that would help with documentation times. You can reduce that, and then that way the counselor can spend more time with their participants. So I think just seeing what's out there and what's available to help you write that RFP is huge.   Carol: Sarah, how about you? What's your perspective on making sure those fiscal pieces are addressed as they are thinking about RFPing?   Sarah: Oh goodness. There's so many perspectives to consider here. I think first and foremost states need to understand period of performance. I feel like that's a term that we make really complicated. And it's really nothing more than just looking at the funding sources that are available and understanding the timeline that agencies can obligate and expend funds. So I think, first and foremost, understanding period of performance. The second key piece really is understanding state requirements. We have a lot of states that aren't either aware of what their state requires, or there are things that are in place that they think is required by the state. And when we start doing a deep dive into what that looks like, sometimes those things really aren't state requirements. It's something that somebody put into place years ago that everybody just thought was what was required. So I think understanding those two things. And then third, I would say understanding what your end game is when you're working with a fiscal and a case management system, and we're looking at just sheer fund accounting and tracking those funds all the way through and then being able to report at the end of that cycle. And so I oftentimes will tell states, if you kind of look at the end game, look at the reporting that's required at the end, it really kind of establishes the things that are necessary along the way in terms of system adaptations, structure, configuration.   Carol: So definitely I'm going to tie you two together when a state is going out and they're looking at doing the RFP, you want to really think about your complete process so that you've got all the right team members in place from the get go, which can't just be the program side of your house. And I remember us doing this back in Minnesota as we were going through the requirements. It's like, what are those fiscal people doing here? They're all important. Like you need all the pieces together, talking through how this system is going to work, how you're going to connect to your statewide accounting system. So that becomes really important. Now, I know I was on a call, I want to say within the last three, four months and we had a state say, yeah, we're thinking about RFP for a new system to go into place January 1st. And Brittny, I want to kick this to you. What is a realistic time frame if somebody is considering a new case management system, is it really possible to do that in, uh, maybe eight months or so or not? What do you think is a good timeline?   Brittny: I think this really depends on several factors as far as a timeline when considering a new case management system, typically it could take up to six months to develop that RFP. And it's really doing some background homework, seeing what's out there, doing a business process analysis and understanding your own business processes. But typically, I'd say depending on agency size, how many years of converted data you're looking at, converting it into the new system. And I know there's federal requirements, but there's also state requirements that are sometimes even longer than the federal ones. And then also if there's any interfaces. So if you have other systems that are connecting to your current case management system, this is going to make a huge difference, because now you've got a lot of different teams having to help out with the specifications and then also test the system. So you've got to think of their timelines as well. And then lastly just that preparedness piece. So how much work did you do up front on the RFP. How much have you analyzed your business processes. And like Sarah had mentioned, are these things that somebody put into place ten years ago, or are these things that are actually a state policy or a federal policy that you're aligning with? I think the typical timeline that I typically see is around 18 to 24 months for the full implementation once you sign in that contract. But again, that could range short or longer depending on that prep work and then that agency size and things like that.   Carol: So eight months is probably a little aggressive.   Brittny: Yeah very, aggressive yeah. But optimistic I like it.   Carol: I love it. So what are some pitfalls that we want to help our listeners avoid as they're kind of tackling this process? And Sarah, I'm going to kick that to you first.   Sarah: First and foremost. And I think the listeners are probably going to see a recurring theme here, as Brittny said, not just taking current system functionality and developing that into a checklist or using that to develop the specifications. I think really sitting down and outlining what are the requirements, what are the things that we're using right now? Where did that come from? And the possibilities going into this process allows a lot of opportunity to think outside the box and think about what are the things that systems currently aren't doing, or things that are requiring a lot more work right now where we could really get creative and do some really cool things. So I think avoiding the pitfall of just not spending that time up front to understand what it is that agencies need, and then also, again, bringing fiscal and program together to understand the requirements from a physical standpoint. A lot of times that is kicked to the finance folks in the House, we're still seeing in a lot of agencies a breakdown or a gap between program and fiscal, and there's a lot of danger and not bringing those two teams together to understand on both sides of the coin, what is it that we need to do? Oftentimes within that space is where a lot of the creative ideas come out and allow greater efficiencies within the agency and more internal controls.   Carol: Very good. Britt, what do you think about pitfalls? What are some things that we could help our folks avoid?   Brittny: Yeah, I once talked to a chief technology officer and he said the two main reasons why usually a case management system implementation fails is because of fiscal and data validation. So hitting those two pieces very hard, making sure that you're not only converting the data into the system, it's almost like that toy where you've got a round circle and you've got to fit it in the round circle. The data conversion doesn't always work like that, and sometimes you're trying to fit that round circle into a square peg. And that's because the way the systems line up. So making sure that you've got individuals on the front end in different roles, looking at that data and then also testing that RSA 911 to make sure things are mapped correctly and going in correctly before you go into production. At one example I've seen of that is significance of disability. And so one system may calculate significance of disability a little bit differently than another system. And even though they've got everything mapped together, doesn't always go hand in hand and can cause some major issues. The fiscal piece, I think Sarah mentioned that quite a bit, but just making sure that you're doing heavy testing and understanding how the system will work, especially when you go into production. Working in a new system, the biggest ones are dealing with authorizations that already have partial payments on it, draft authorizations, pending payments, amending an authorization, and vendor logic. These are all pieces that may be different in that new system. So making sure you're testing every angle and you're prepared for that transition. I think a third suggestion is just my personal preference would be to avoid over customizing the system. So there's a lot of systems out there that are already available in VR agencies. And so if it works for that VR agency, there's a good chance the majority of the processes are going to work for your agency as well. And sometimes those states like to over customize that system just because they want to have what they've always had. But that ends up being sometimes pretty expensive down the road, because then you're paying for additional testing and maintenance of that customization. So I'd be open minded to changing business processes, or see if you could find your business processes met in a different way and achieving that same result.   Carol: Yeah, I like it. I remember when we had our new case management system and it was built. We went in with all our partners, our WIOA partners, and so we had this kind of groovy new system, but it was supposed to meet all these different needs. Well, it gets complicated, but we couldn't forget about our field people because a lot of those folks in the field. So while you're talking to program, you know, a lot of times it's supervisors and different folks are involved. Having those direct field staff, your VR techs and your counselors who are inputting stuff every day and they're like, hey, this weird thing over here, you know, they may not talk techie, but they can explain the stuff that isn't working so well in getting all of those ideas right from them so they can see, hey, they really can help to impact and influence the system is important.   Brittny: Definitely.   Sarah: You know, Carol, along the lines of what Brittny just shared too, I think there's a caution there in terms of customizations that are in existing systems, whether it's an off the shelf system or a homegrown system. We have a number of agencies that have their own in-house systems. Sometimes there are customizations that work for a particular state or might work for a group of states, but it's not applicable to all states. Again, because we go back to those state requirements. And then sometimes when agencies implement that, it causes some compliance issues because of their own local procurement standards. So asking the question, you know, if they're developing those specifications and not just taking everything from what they're doing or is offered to them currently, but really looking at it with a cursory eye to determine, is this something that we need or we even can use because we're seeing period of performance compliance issues from some system functionalities that are in place that worked for other states that aren't necessarily a one size fits all.   Carol: I think one thing I've noticed too, and I just noticed from the periphery, you know, it's really statewide IT systems and the IT groups have been put together. You know, we see that consolidation happening where you may have had your own IT folks that you were dealing with, and now you have a State Department of IT or something. There's some other consolidated area that has put together different processes or requirements. So I think for some folks, if you're used to maybe the old way when you were entering into this process and maybe doing an RFP and you had more control over everything, you may have a little less because you do have now these sort of statewide IT system requirements. And so it's really important to get hooked up with those folks as well, especially for listeners who may have not done this for a while. Maybe, you know, it's been a long minute since you have looked at your case management system, and you were remembering back a decade ago when it was a little easier. You could just do something a little more at the drop of a dime. But I think the benefit that having those statewide IT groups is they have so much experience. And when they're looking at how they really address putting out an RFP and they can have a lot of their expertise to bring to the table to make sure this gets put together really well. You just want to remember that you may have some other things in play that you didn't have a long time ago. Just a thought. Alright, I know Brittny, when we were talking to you, had some ideas on cool stuff and I love cool stuff. Like, you know, if you're doing your case management system, you said, well, gee, don't, don't just recreate the same old thing like you want to put cool things in place. So do you have ideas like new technology or features or things people could include in their request?   Brittny: Yeah, I've seen dashboards where there's visual dashboards and graphs or pie charts that assist the counselor and case management. So seeing how many individuals they've got enrolled in an education program and how many of those individuals have earned an MSG in the last performance year. And this allows them to check those that haven't and reach out to those participants. I've also seen a central print and mail where the state's just actually the agency put a checkbox in there, and they've got an interface with a local company and that company, they hit the checkbox and everything gets bashed up that night for a letter or anything that they want to mail. And there's a mass every night they mail out all these letters. So that way the counselor could be anywhere. They could be at the school, out in the field, anywhere, mail out a letter, and not have to worry about printing something off and stuffing that envelope. I've also seen invoice payment systems. So systems where vendors can apply to be a vendor, they can document what services agree to terms, things like that. The agency can review them and approve them in there. And then that system can work back and forth with authorizations and payments. So an authorization could be drafted in the case management system could shoot over to this invoice payment system. That vendor can view it, upload documents, invoice against it, put reports and things like that in there, and they can communicate back and forth to one another. I've also seen states exploring various ways to integrate artificial intelligence and case management systems. So I know you did a podcast on one that was kind of outside the case management system, but I'm hearing a lot of states be interested in how to integrate it in the case management system, whether it's in case notes or informed decisions across. So I'm really excited to see what states come up with and how they're able to integrate that within. But I think that's a great idea.   Carol: I love that whole area of artificial intelligence. It was super fun when we did the podcast with Washington General, because they had that really cool piece that was, you know, an add on. It was kind of outside of the system. But boy, the staff love it. But there's a lot of possibilities. I know we were kicking around on the team about ways you could use AI within VR. I mean, when you think about the development of plans, even the way you speak about things, to make it more plain language, and I still I think people are so freaked out a little bit about AI and you go, gosh, it's all over. You know, it is in our whole world. It's when you're talking to Siri or Alexa, you know, every day you go to the airport and you're getting your eyes scanned to get through, Clear whatever you may do. It's just integrated into everything we do. I think that is a really fun, developing new area that has a lot of possibility for the case management systems. Sarah, did you have any ideas too, about any cool possible groovy tools? Maybe fiscally related? I didn't mean to put you on the spot.   Sarah: No, that's okay. We haven't seen as much innovation on the fiscal side, although I think that there are a lot of opportunities. I think, again, in the AI world, I think mapping that out, looking for the possibilities, it goes back to what I said earlier, just being an innovative thinker and looking at what are the challenges and efficiencies that we're battling and what are some of those possibilities that we can use to address that. Staff recruitment retention continues to be a challenge in our VR world and especially in the fiscal arena. And as staff look to bolster their internal controls and the program at large, looking for some of those opportunities. So I don't know that I have as many cool things like Brittny shares, but I'm hoping that we'll see those on the horizon.   Carol: Yeah, me too. I think there's a lot of possibility out there now. I know Sarah, you had developed a tool that coincided with the 2023 spring CSV conference because a lot of folks were asking like, okay, what do I do with my case management system and the fiscal requirements and all of that? Can you talk a little bit about that? Because even though we felt like we widely publicized it, people are still like what? There was a tool. I don't know anything about it.   Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm still excited about it. So we developed a fiscal technology checklist for case services last year in conjunction with the period of performance training that we offered at the conference. And we found that in our technical assistance to state VR agencies around this topic, there's a gap in communication between either the CMS companies and VR, or even if an agency has their own internal program, a gap in communication between the program and fiscal and whoever those IT experts are. So we took that opportunity to map out all of the areas to consider. And so when we're working with agencies under the VRTAC-QM to analyze their processes and look at how their systems are set up, there's a linear fashion and way of looking at that. For instance, is the system set up on a state fiscal year or a federal fiscal year? There's a lot of agencies that have a system set up on a state year that really doesn't make sense for reporting, and it's causing a lot of challenges on the financial side with producing reports for the RSA 17, for example. And they thought that that's the way they had to have it set up. There's very few states that have very state specific requirements that would necessitate that. So it's not that it never would work, but it involves sort of a deep dive into why do we have our systems set up and is that necessary? The other big piece are the budgets. How are budgets set up within the system? Does it map out to the available fund sources that are available to the agency? And then there's a ton of bells and whistles that act as internal controls in the back of a case management system that really dictate how the system behaves and helps the agency navigate through period of performance. And so it's going through a whole list of considerations to make sure that the agency is well equipped to manage period of performance, manage those different fund sources and make them able to do that reporting at the end. So it's a really good list. And honestly, as states are struggling with that communication piece, particularly with the companies that they work with or through the process to develop a new case management system, it's a very nice way of considering all of those different elements that need to go into either evaluating the current system or looking at a new system to make sure that it's meeting exactly what their state requires while still taking into account those federal requirements. So we're constantly reverting folks back to that list, and hopefully agencies are taking the time to sit down as a team and combining the program and fiscal staff to walk through that, to make sure that they understand all of those elements. And if they have questions, we have a number of trainings that we offer through the VRTAC-QM to assist with that. We've even had some agencies seek out that training before they start developing those lists for their RFPs, to make sure that they both understand from a physical standpoint what all those requirements are. So anyway, it's Fiscal Technology Checklist for Case Services. It is on our website, I'm sure. Carol, you're probably going to mention that and hint, hint it is available to the public. So I know that there's been some current CMS companies that have gone out and looked at that piece also, so that they can better understand and hopefully fill in the gap for that communication gap exists so that everybody's talking the same language and on the same page.   Carol: Yes, of course, I have to make a shameless plug for our lovely website. So you will go to vRTAC-QM.org and we have a top navigation header. You can go right to resources and everything's listed under the CSAVR Spring 2023 Session Recordings and Materials. And it actually was Session Two is where you can find that checklist. But if you scroll through you can actually listen to Sarah's session recording. And then you can see the checklist there as well, as well as all of our other awesome sessions from the 2023 Spring Conference. Oh, thanks for that. So how about other words of wisdom from you fine ladies? Because I think of you both as just like, oh my gosh, such powerhouses in the case management system. Brittny, I'm going to go to you first.   Brittny: I've got a few. I think the first one is to be curious. Your agency may have a process that you're unsure why it exists. Some may say that's how it's always been. So I think it's good to be curious, figure out the reason behind it, and see if there's a way that you can streamline those processes. I would also allocate staff specifically for this project, and I think we mentioned it already a little bit earlier. But looking at those projects subject matter experts and making sure you've got the right people at the table. So this is going to be administration, IT, but also your fiscal people, your front end people. It's really important to make sure that you have some direct service or direct field staff that are knowledgeable and have a long agency history that you can integrate into that project as well, and they can provide feedback. I would also have a designated project manager that could be somebody. You within your department, or that could be somebody that you decide to contract out. But I think it's important that they have that project management experience because it is a giant project, and it is going to take quite some time to get from that RFP contract to implementation. I'd also weave in changes as much as you can. So during the project, you'll start to have the opportunity to see the differences between the two systems, your current one and your new system. And so if there's any way that you can weave in changes early and often, this will help that transition for staff much, much easier. And then also as you're preparing or updating revising business processes, that also helps with that piece of it. I've seen states do statewide quarterly demos to kind of show staff the new system and help them kind of process that change along the way. And lastly, I would definitely emphasize not to overlook accessibility. I'd pull in your accessibility users early to begin testing the system, and then also integrating those accessibility terms into training documents. I think one thing I learned is that using language accessibility language is huge. I couldn't imagine trying to learn a new system and somebody saying, use a dropdown box. But yet my system is calling it a combo box. So using that terminology and making this transition much easier for all staff.   Carol: Awesome points. I want to highlight a couple, that be curious. I can't emphasize that enough. There are so many agencies where I'm going to call it urban Legend. You're doing something because everybody always says, RSA said. You have to do that and RSA will come out. I've been in monitoring. They're like, we never told you that. Whatever that is in your system, you made that up like you made that happen. So I love that being curious because you want to ask questions. A lot of times you just go with the flow. You know, somebody put it in play 20 years ago and then you just keep bringing it forward. So I love that. And definitely when you talk about dedicating staff, you want to make sure you dedicate those staff, but you also want to think about all of the other roles that have been assigned to that person. You cannot put them as the project manager of this whole project, and they're still maintaining all their field services duties and doing all the other stuff, because this really is a full time job. And I know I'm going to apologize right here to Natasha Jerde. We had her as a project manager for our new case management system. At the same time, she's, you know, rewriting our policy and procedure manual and doing a million other things because I just had zero clue at how much went into this. And that was really it's really terrible. And I've actually seen some of the staff across the country burn out. We've had people retire early. They're like the case management system process killed me. So when you're dedicating staff, please do give them some time to do it. And don't expect that they're not going to work an 80 hour workweek because that is not so fabulous. But I loved your points, Brittny, those are great. How about you, Sarah? Any words of wisdom?   Sarah: Yes, thank you. I think we constantly hear from state agencies about silos. How do we break down silos? And this process really can be a nice segue to combining program and fiscal together. I know we've said that multiple times in our discussion today, but I don't think we can say it enough. This process really is an opportunity to develop relationships and I know even from the agency that I came from, the introduction that I had to the program side was through a new case management system conversion. And at first I showed up at the table. And Carol, like you said earlier, people were like, who invited her? Why is she here? Does she need to be here? People wouldn't talk and share ideas. And then as we both committed to developing that relationship and understanding one another better, not only did we end up with a quality product, but we had quality services, we had better management and leadership within the agency. So looking at it as an opportunity sort of through that lens, engage the folks in the field as well. Sometimes as leaders, we tackle these types of projects and we think the folks in the field are too busy. And really the best ideas can come from our counselors and those individuals who are supporting in those roles our field staff, our fiscal agents. And I know we have a separate training on that that we offer VR agencies, but engaging them in that process and getting their ideas on, hey, what's working and what's not working? What are the challenges that you're facing so that as you are curious to Brittny's point, you're taking into consideration maybe some of those wins that you can secure on the other side and maybe cut out some process or things while still meeting those requirements and engaging in those efficiencies. The other thing I would offer, and we're having lots of discussions now about fiscal forecasting and spending strategies within VR agencies, as VR agencies are getting over the hump of Covid and taking a look at what their spending looks like, the case management system really is a system of record. And as we look at the statewide accounting system and in its function, we can't ignore the case management system and the role that it plays in navigating through all those fiscal requirements. And so if we think about the CMS sort of as the VR checkbook, and when we are authorizing for services and obligating funds, not only are there requirements around how to do that and how to capture that, looking at the individual sources of funds that we have available, it really is a way to capture those obligations within a checkbook so that we can take a look at any point in time from a leadership standpoint, what is our financial position? And so being able to look at how much do I have in my 23 carryover checkbook and how much do I have in 24. And plan ahead so that I can make decisions around re-allotment and I can think ahead so that we're not leaving funds on the table and lapsing funds at the back end of our of our award. It really is important that we look at how we capture all of that in the case management system in a way that allows us to continue managing our programs with a strong fiscal focus. So tying all of that in is also important at a higher level, so that we can use the data to make quality financial decisions.   Carol: Well said, well said. So in case our listeners want to get a hold of either of you, would you mind sharing your email address, Brittny?   Brittny: Yes, definitely. My email address is bMacIver So m a c I v e r@sdsu.edu. It's also available on our VRTAC website. If you go to our staff you'll see my email address there as well.   Carol: Excellent. Sarah, how about you.   Sarah: Yes thank you. It's sClardy. so, that's s c l a r d y at Sdsu.Edu.   Carol: Thanks so much I appreciate you both joining me today. Have a great one, you guys.   Brittny: Thanks.   Sarah: Thank you.   {Music}   Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. 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Are you a property manager? Do you hire property managers? Can you answer the question: what is a property manager, and what do they do? In today's episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss what a property manager is and what they should be doing in a property management business. You'll Learn [01:14] Million-dollar question: What does a property manager do? [06:25] Siloing information to protect your business [10:26] Hiring specialists instead of people who can “do it all” [12:20] What should a property manager's role be? [16:31] Property managers as client success experts Tweetables “There's a lot of confusion as to the definition of a property manager in the property management industry.” “When your company grows, what we're going to hopefully have you do is shift into specialists, so that you won't have a property manager that just does everything.” “Effectively cloning yourself or duplicating yourself in the business usually means getting 10 people, not one.” “It's not hard to be exceptional in property management.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: Business owners, we need to stop trying to find people that can do everything. We need to find people that are really good specialists.  [00:00:08] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives. And you are interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:28] DoorGrow Property Managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:00:56] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the B. S. build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:13] All right. So one of the things that's come up, we just did a DoorGrow boardroom event. [00:01:18] And one of our clients that was there was like, "I need to hire a property manager." And we're like, "okay." And what we noticed in talking there and going deeper and digging in deeper is that there's a lot of confusion as to the definition of a property manager in the property management industry. [00:01:37] Sarah: Yeah, it's like a catch all.  [00:01:39] Jason: So the challenge is it can mean just about anything.  [00:01:42] Sarah: Yeah. The definition of property manager is: "do anything and everything that the company needs."  [00:01:49] Jason: And so I've noticed this for a while. we've had a lot of clients and they'll say, "Oh, I need another property manager," or "I need to hire a property manager." [00:01:56] "I need to get a property manager." And it always means something different. So like some people think a property manager does everything, and this is the portfolio style property manager. They're like, "they need to go get business." And so they're a BDM, they need to handle and do some of the bookkeeping accounting stuff. [00:02:17] They need to do maintenance coordination. They need to do the leasing. So they're trying to find somebody that's basically an entrepreneur. They can do everything that's probably going to run away and steal half their business. Right. Which happens. It's happened quite a bit. I've seen it. And that's, I think the wrong way to build a property management business, it's the wrong way to hire and build your team. [00:02:36] So let's figure out. What is a property manager? What is it?  [00:02:41] Sarah: Love it.  [00:02:41] Jason: What are your thoughts?  [00:02:42] Sarah: Well, so I think that there's an important distinction, especially when it comes to the size of your company. So in the beginning, When it's just you do everything. It's all you, you, and then you some more. [00:02:58] And I think this is why then when they go to hire a property manager, they're like, "Oh, well I did everything and I want to replace myself. So I need a property manager to replace myself and then they're going to do everything because I did everything." So in the beginning. When you are in the day to day and it's just you and you haven't built a team yet and you're functioning as the property manager because you're in the day to day and the tactical work, yes, you are technically a property manager. [00:03:26] And then when your company grows, what we're going to hopefully have you do is shift into specialists. so that you won't have a property manager that just does everything. You'll have people who are really good at the one thing that they do and will be able to then segment the business and split that out into multiple roles instead of just having a property manager that does everything. [00:03:56] Everything. Yeah. So I created a Facebook post, cause  [00:04:00] There was some heat on that post. Well, I like this. I don't know if you read the comments.  [00:04:03] Jason: I like to stir the pot a little bit. For those that are watching this on video, this is what it looks like, right? So join our Facebook group, go to doorgrowclub. com, get in there. So I said, if the property manager role on your team is not your maintenance coordinator, operator, bookkeeper, leasing agent, then what is their role? And so people are like "define operator, like what's an operator?" So then I was defining what an operator was, but Michelle Miller, shout out to Michelle, she commented. She said, "in other words, if they aren't doing everything, what are they doing?" Right. Brian Nelson said "delegator." And I like that. That's I think  [00:04:39] Sarah: I don't like  [00:04:40] Jason: that.  [00:04:40] I like the idea that they are not the person that's doing all this stuff. Maybe they're orchestrating, maybe that's what they're doing. [00:04:47] They're maintaining the relationship with the owner. Sean Foster, he says "PM's number 1 job is to be the middleman between the owner and the tenant advising and the correct path of the most profitable investment." [00:04:56] And "but that one responsibility branches off into another 20, doesn't it?" [00:05:00] And then, "depends on the systems." There's a little dialogue going back and forth there. So if you do property management, you manage the property. And to manage the property, you're doing leasing, maintenance, inspections, all this stuff. But that doesn't mean that the property manager in your business is doing all this stuff or should be. [00:05:17] Usually you don't want somebody that's a jack of all trades and a master of none trying to do stuff. And if they're actually good at everything, they'll probably just go start their own business. And I think that's the other challenges that we often mistakenly fall into this clone myth. And this was what was going on with our client at the DoorGrow boardroom event. [00:05:35] He thought, he's like, well, "I was a property manager at another company for a while. Now, I have my own business and I'm doing all everything and I need to go hire a property manager and I was doing everything at that company. I'm doing everything in my own company. Now, I need to go find somebody else to do everything." [00:05:50] And when we finally identified this. I call it the clone myth. We think, "I just need to go find somebody just like me. I need to clone myself." Effectively cloning yourself or duplicating yourself in the business usually means getting 10 people, not one. Like 10 different hats, 10 different specialists in the business. [00:06:07] And so just want to address the clone myth real quick. So I think we want to find a way, I think in the industry, it might make sense to eliminate the term property manager. If they're not actually the one doing all of the little pieces, unless you're portfolio style. So what are your thoughts on that? [00:06:25] Sarah: Well, I think the other thing too, that I want to bring up about him at the boardroom event is he's like, "I need a property manager and they're going to do everything. And I do everything. And I also did everything at my other company when I worked for them as a property manager. So I need one. How do I make sure that they don't just steal my business and steal my clients and walk away though, because they're going to be doing everything? [00:06:48] Jason: Yeah.  [00:06:48] Sarah: And that's a really good reason to not have them doing everything.  [00:06:52] Jason: Most business owners eventually figure out you need to silo information. So for example, when I ran a web design agency, I had an intranet where all the information was stored and I had how I sold, how I found clients, like all this was built out in the intranet. [00:07:07] All the sales related stuff. And then I had all of how we build the websites, how we put them together, all this kind of stuff. And I would hire web designers to build the websites and to do work and they would get access to the intranet. They would read the sales stuff and then figure out how to get their own clients and then they would quit. [00:07:25] I kept having them leave and they're like, "Oh, well, I've got so much business. I don't have time to do your projects now." And I was like, "what?" it happened over and over again. So I was like, "okay, something's going on here." So then I realized I needed to segment the information because the stuff that I figured out was pretty effective and pretty valuable. [00:07:40] Sarah: And essentially you were paying them to train them to then run their own business and not work for you anymore.  [00:07:47] Jason: What a deal. So, okay. Yeah. So then I started siloing that information. And so I think I think I shared a TikTok or a reel or something with you where a guy was talking about siloing the information and he was talking about sales and manufacturing and a product business. [00:08:02] And if they know where to source all the manufacturing stuff and they know how to acquire business, they don't need you anymore. So he had to segregate that information. I was like, that's the same thing. You need to segregate knowledge in your business. Your goal is to hire specialists on the team, not generalists that can wear multiple hats. [00:08:22] You're the business owner. You have to wear every hat in the business that is not currently worn by somebody or is not being done properly. You have to step in. It all falls on you. That's the job of the CEO, right? You have to do it. If you have a good operator, then they step in and some of that stuff, too. [00:08:40] You have to do stuff that's uncomfortable.  [00:08:43] Sarah: Well, let's just pause for a moment. Your operator is not going to do your day to day stuff in property management.  [00:08:47] Jason: They shouldn't do your day to day stuff. It sounded like. A lot of people get confused.  [00:08:50] Sarah: I know what you were trying to say, but people are going to hear that and go, "Oh yeah. And then my operator is going to do everything."  [00:08:55] Jason: I just wanted to include you. I didn't want to say you don't do the hard stuff too.  [00:08:59] Sarah: I do the hard stuff when I have to.  [00:09:01] Jason: Yeah.  [00:09:01] Sarah: Until we can hire somebody else to do it. Because I hate doing it. I hate certain parts though, then we hire somebody and they do it much better. [00:09:11] Jason: Yeah. So I think it might make sense unless you're portfolio style, which I'm not a real big fan of. I think there's a lot of downsides to portfolio style management. I think it's really rare that people are good at everything. And so I think it's a lot more effective to get somebody that's a really great maintenance coordinator that can handle maintenance for probably thousands of units, right? [00:09:32] If they really know their stuff and have the right systems and tools and you can take that off of your property manager's plates. You need probably accounting or bookkeeping or a team that helps with that kind of stuff. There's vendors that can help with some of those pieces, especially if you don't enjoy, or aren't good at that piece, there's a lot of available resources, but if you get specialists that are really good, they will surpass your ability in that particular category. [00:10:00] Sarah is much better running the planning system that we have DoorGrow OS, running the operations of the business than me, I just like, when I was doing it between having operators I just stopped planning. I didn't want to do the meetings. It was, "anybody stuck? Let's move on. And now it's meticulous and it's detail and we're moving forward. [00:10:19] And everything's focused and we're hitting all our goals and we're making progress. Right? Because I have a good operator. So I think the business owners, we need to stop trying to find people that can do everything. We need to find people that are really good at specialists. So, I met with this entrepreneur a while back named Joe Abraham. [00:10:39] He gave this cool Ted talk that I liked and I checked out his book and I took his online quiz and he has a book called entrepreneurial DNA and he created this score similar to an assessment like this, but it's BOSI. B O S I. And it talks about the four different types of entrepreneurs, which are builders, opportunists, innovators, and specialists. [00:11:01] And you need to figure out what you are, the book talks about, and then build the right team around you. So, historically, I was more of a specialist, which means I'm dedicated my craft for over a decade to coaching and supporting property managers, right? And like figuring out how to grow businesses and then I'm an innovator. [00:11:17] I like to take in lots of ideas and formulate new ideas and create stuff and that sort of thing. So more of a specialist, innovator and specialist, and most of the coaches and mentors I've hired have been builders. Builder, innovators, stuff like that opportunists are always looking for the next way to make money or the next vehicle or this sort of thing. [00:11:38] Think like Ray Kroc, who took the McDonald's brothers', intellectual property, because they were innovators and specialist, and he blew it up and he was a builder and an opportunist so, opportunists make great salespeople. For example, builders make good CEOs. And so I wanted to be a better CEO. [00:11:56] And so I've worked with a lot of coaches to become more and more of a builder to develop that skill set. And I'm getting better. Better and better. So, so I think we need to as entrepreneurs figure out what are our strengths and then what are we lacking? If you need to get around maybe coaches that can help you with with some of the gaps that you have in your own personality or your own knowledge base, then that can help you get to the next level. [00:12:20] All right, so I think if we could eliminate the property manager term from those that are not portfolio style, then what would a property manager that people typically think is a property manager do if they're not the maintenance coordinator, they're not all these things What do you think?  [00:12:34] Sarah: Yeah, I think you can still call them a property manager. [00:12:37] I'm not against the term like you're like, "eliminate! Anti property manager term and industry!" I just don't think that's going to happen Okay. I do think though once your business grows and gets large enough you can have one person or team to do the maintenance coordination, and then that piece is handled by the maintenance team. [00:12:58] Then you can offload the leasing part, right? They're going through, maybe doing showings if you still do those, or at least going through applications and moving people along doing the move ins. Dealing with move outs and starting that whole process, kicking that off. You might have a leasing person, or a leasing team, and then the accounting piece, like your property manager probably should not be doing accounting. [00:13:20] You should have somebody who is really good at accounting to do the accounting. And if that means you need to have a service, do it for you. That's fine. Just make sure that they're a really good reputable service. And there's someone that can hopefully like triple tie out your books and make sure everything is correct. [00:13:36] And then you, here's the big thing, you still have to monitor it. Don't just hand it off and say, here, please go do this thing. And then just sit back and never look at it and hope that it's right. Because I've seen that a lot where people go, Oh, like I haven't done the bookkeeping. I have somebody else do it. [00:13:52] And then they start investigating because there's a one little issue and they start to pull the thread. And it's like, when you pull the thread of the sweater and it just all unravels. Okay, so don't do that. Don't do that. But then your property manager can be more like the person that deals with the relationships of between like clients and tenants. [00:14:13] Right. So we're bridging a gap.  [00:14:15] Jason: So then technically they're more of a relationship manager, right. They're managing relationships. I think a big gap that we don't see a lot of in the property management industry, that's super common in every other industry is the category of client success. And the category of client success, their whole goal is to retain customers to keep customers, make sure that they're happy. [00:14:38] And so I think that's the role that some people might say, "oh, that's the property manager" is they need somebody that's just focused on client success, loves on the clients, takes care of the clients, makes them feel valued. Maybe meets with them annually to make sure that everything's looking good financially. [00:14:53] Sarah: Portfolio review calls.  [00:14:55] Jason: Portfolio reviews. [00:14:56] Sarah: I love those. I will harp about that all day long. If you're not doing them, do them.  [00:15:00] Jason: Yeah. So, client success in a lot of industries. I've heard some of our coaches and mentors describe as your other sales team. Right. You've got those that sell people in, like your business development, your BDs, your business development managers, your BDMs that bring clients into the business, but then they are not responsible for retaining the clients. [00:15:22] And you think you retain clients just by doing maintenance coordination and just by doing leasing, but these things don't really develop or solidify or build the relationship. If you screw those things up, then you're bound to probably lose clients. And so that's the bare minimum.  [00:15:36] Sarah: No one is going, "Oh my God. This leasing team is so amazing. I'm never going to leave." [00:15:41] Jason: Right.  [00:15:41] Sarah: They just expect the leasing to be good because it's what they signed up for when they hired a property manager. Right? They're not going to go, "Oh my God, I can't believe they got this maintenance thing done so so fast. And it was done in two hours and it was amazing. I'm never going to leave." [00:15:57] Jason: So Gallup organization wrote this book called first break all the rules. And then it has this customer satisfaction pyramid. And at the lowest level, there's the lowest two levels are availability and accuracy. So these are the two things that if you're always available and you're always accurate in what you say you're going to do and you do it, people just don't even notice. And so it's not hard to be exceptional in property management. If you do that, it's expected and demanded.  [00:16:24] Sarah: So this is like all the tactical stuff that we do.  [00:16:27] Jason: Yeah.  [00:16:27] Sarah: It falls into this.  [00:16:29] Jason: Yeah.  [00:16:29] Sarah: It's just expected.  [00:16:31] Jason: So the next level, if you really want to have great client, customer service and great client interactions is partnership and then advice. [00:16:40] And this is where I think a property manager can really add value. This is where they are really a client success role where they're retaining clients. They're improving the relationship and the value that people see in the relationship and in the longevity of staying a client of your particular business, when there's plenty of others that could do it, they can manage their property. [00:17:00] You have team members that are managing the relationship and focusing on client success. So maybe there should be some client success managers in property management and less property managers. As far as terms go.  [00:17:13] Sarah: He's really trying to get rid of that term.  [00:17:15] Jason: I don't know. It's just, it's so ambiguous. [00:17:17] Sarah: That's why. So when we were creating R docs, like all of the job descriptions for different roles, he's like, "I want there to be an R doc for every role in property management business." And I said, "okay, I can create it." Here's the problem. The problem is that if I create one for an assistant, it's going to be different from company to company. If I create one for a property manager, there's going to be some similarities, but there's always going to be things that are different from company to company. So there are great templates, right? And it's they're, it's amazing. And then you just delete the things you don't need and add anything you do need from there. There's nothing that's uniform. There's so much that's different from business to business. We all do the same thing. We're all property management entrepreneurs, but the way the ins and outs, the inner workings of our business, there's a million different ways to do it.  [00:18:10] Jason: We did define those Rdocs though. [00:18:12] We have Rdocs for each of the major roles. I think yeah, I think having recognizing that. You need a client success person to maintain the relationship. You need a maintenance coordinator. You need if all these things are segregated and you get really great specialists in each of these areas, then yeah, you're going to have a much stronger lifetime value of your client. [00:18:33] You're going to make a lot more money. So I think that's important. Anything else we should talk about related to property manager?  [00:18:39] Sarah: I think that covers it.  [00:18:40] Jason: All right. So figure out and I'm curious, go ahead and find my post in the DoorGrow club group, or go post or comment in the DoorGrow club community. [00:18:51] I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. What do you feel a property manager is if you don't do portfolio style? What are your property managers doing? How do you define that role? And are they really managing properties? Are they really managing people? Are they really customer success? Are they really supporting and taking care of owners? [00:19:08] Or do you think they're taking care of tenants and like maintaining a relationship there? So, all right, I think that's our interesting conversation for the day for the DoorGrow show and do you want to give them a call to action? That's a good call to action for the end of the show here? [00:19:23] Sarah: Oh, well, we have a few events coming up. So go and check out our events that we have coming up. Don't miss DoorGrow. It's going to be a big one. [00:19:31] This is like our big conference. We do it once a year. It's here in Round Rock, Texas on it's a Friday and Saturday, May 17th and 18th. And our theme this year is creating opportunity from uncertainty. So we have a lot of great topics, a lot of great speakers lined up for you guys. And I've got something special in the works that I haven't really released yet, but It's gonna be really cool because we've never done anything quite like that before  [00:19:57] Jason: Yeah, all right. [00:19:59] Cool. All right. Well on that note Until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:20:03] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:20:30] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Property management entrepreneurs… how many hats are you currently wearing? It's easy for business owners to get stuck doing things they don't actually enjoy doing. Property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about how to get out of the roles you don't enjoy and into the roles you do. You'll Learn [03:17] The myth of wanting to clone yourself [07:51] The pros of a great hiring system [13:46] Which hat do you take off first? [17:58] Next steps Tweetables “That you need 10 people to clone yourself as an entrepreneur.” “A generalist that's good at everything is never the best.” “For every role that exists, there's always a person to fill it who actually really love doing that role.” “If you have office politics, you've got a culture problem.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: For every role that exists, there's always a person to fill it who actually really love doing that role.  [00:00:09] Jason: Welcome DoorGrowers, to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrower. DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. [00:01:03] Now let's get into the show. All right, so we released a funny video. So if you have not seen any of our funny videos, we put out quite a few of these. We have a whole playlist of them on YouTube. You can go to youtube.com/doorgrow and go to our playlist and look for our playlist of funny videos. Our newest funny video that we released is all about hats. [00:01:28] It's got a whole bunch of hats and it's silly, and I'm putting on different hats, and so if you want to laugh at me. Go check that out. we thought we would talk about this idea today. So what's the idea?  [00:01:40] Sarah: So the idea is are you wearing too many hats, aka are you filling too many roles in your property management business?  [00:01:50] Jason: All right, so when you first start out, you have to wear every hat, right? [00:01:55] You do everything in the business because it's all on you. You're like, "Oh, let me send that over to my maintenance coordinator... who's me. And let me get that over to my bookkeeper... who is also me. And Oh, my receptionist will answer my calls for me today because that's me." What are some of the hats that property managers are wearing. [00:02:15] Sarah: There's so many of them. Let's see. There's maintenance coordinator, a leasing agent, there's usually the bookkeeper, whoever's going to handle finances, there's of course the CEO who's going to set the vision of the company, there's the operator who's going to do things on the backend, there's the salesperson or the BDM, there's usually like a property manager, there's sometimes assistant property managers... As companies grow, they sometimes get tenant coordinators or client coordinators like just to handle like tenant or client communications. But when you start out, like all of this is usually you. [00:02:55] Jason: One of the things that I hear a lot from early stage entrepreneurs, people that are just getting started is they're like, "I just need to clone myself. I just need to find somebody else. Just like me." And so this is the big mistake that everybody makes initially in hiring. It's everybody does it like we all go and try and find somebody like ourselves. [00:03:15] That's what we think hiring is. We think hiring is cloning ourselves. The challenge with that is that the clone myth, as I call it, the reality is that you need 10 people to clone yourself as an entrepreneur. You need a different person for each hat. [00:03:32] Because if you find somebody that is as adaptable as you and that can do everything like you and is driven like you, guess what they're going to do? They're going to do what you did and they're going to leave and go start their own company. I've seen this over and over again where people hire a clone and the clone does exactly what a clone would do. They become like you and they leave and sometimes take your clients and start their own business and become your competition. And so we don't want to fall prey to the clone myth. We want to find specialists that we can give pieces of what we do or hats to that are really good at that particular hat and a generalist that's good at everything is never the best. [00:04:17] You are not the best at every role. You probably think, "nobody else could do it as good as me." This is the other belief that early stage entrepreneurs say. "Nobody else can do it as well as me. I might as well do it myself." And that's a trap. It's a trap that keeps you doing everything forever. And if you believe that, then that means you will by default be comfortable getting crappy team members that are worse than you at these hats. [00:04:42] Because if you believe that you're the best and nobody else could be better than you, then you will go hire people and you will tolerate people that are worse than you at these particular roles. And then you'll be frustrated and I have a team of people that are better at their particular roles than I would be and this gives me a lot of confidence being able to let go of stuff. Like Sarah is way better at the details way better operations way better at putting things together. Like you've significantly improved the business and she's better at all of those things than I am and there's things that I'm better at than Sarah, but that allows me to stay in those areas I get to stay in those areas where I am better at those things than Sarah and then we have different team members Adam, and Mar, and they're all better at their particular tasks than I would be. [00:05:31] Sarah: Or I would be. Yeah.  [00:05:33] Absolutely. And that's what you want, is you want someone who is better at whatever this is than you are, especially if you don't enjoy it. So if you've got things in your business that you're holding on to and you think, "oh, I'll just never find somebody who loves maintenance coordination. Like who on the world would love to do that job because it's horrible?" Somebody will love it. [00:05:59] Somebody who likes details and organization and they like having a plan and a structure and a system. There are people who function that way and they really enjoy that. And it's so funny because Jason was like, "for every role that exists, there's always a person to fill it who actually really love doing that role." And it's true. It's really true.  [00:06:22] Jason: That's a good point because early stage entrepreneurs also believe that because they hate doing something like if you hate maintenance coordination, you're like, "man, if I never have to do another maintenance escalation or talk to a tenant again, I'd be so happy." [00:06:37] A lot of times entrepreneurs believe that means nobody else would like it either. It's really a self centered, self centric view to believe that the rest of the world are like you. They're not. Like one of my mentors would say, there are people out there that like changing bedpans, you know? [00:06:52] And I've said that to some people that were nurses or something like that. And they're like, "yeah, I do. I feel like I'm helping them."  [00:06:58] And I'm like, "that's great. I wouldn't want to do that.  [00:07:00] Sarah: Like Evelyn, she says, "I don't like the changing of the bedpans, but I do like that when I do that, I know that I'm helping somebody who can't do it for themselves." [00:07:07] Jason: Yeah. And so she's happy to do it.  [00:07:10] Sarah: You can't pay me enough money in this world to change a bedpan.  [00:07:13] Jason: There is not enough money in this entire universe. That's my sister in law. And yeah that's wild. And so I want everyone listening to believe that there are people out there that can do the things that are your minus signs. [00:07:26] You can find people that's their plus signs and they will do it better than you. If you believe there are people out there that can do it better than you, there's a lot of dinosaur bosses. This is how you know you're a dinosaur boss. If you're the person that just believes everybody in the younger generation is terrible and there's no good hires out there available and nobody wants to work, then guess what you're going to find and attract when you go onto your job search? [00:07:51] There are great people out there. And if you build a really good hiring process, you can find and attract them. But the great people don't want to work for a dinosaur boss, like somebody that just believes that 'if I pay you, you should just do it and you should just like it and just suck it up.' [00:08:06] Because that's not very inspiring and people have options nowadays. They don't have to stay at a job very long. They can go work elsewhere. And the way that we retain team members is we create a culture of people that all share the same vision, same mission to transform property management, business owners. [00:08:23] And because we hire specialists and hire people that are really dialed in personality wise for that particular role that we know they can be great at it. And because each of our team members are great, it creates this sense of mutual respect on the team. Everybody on our team likes each other. Yeah. And they respect each other. [00:08:42] And in our daily huddles, they're like celebrating each other and sharing, like pointing out how awesome different team members were because they can see that these team members are really good at the things they do and it's things they're not good at or wouldn't want to have to do.  [00:08:57] Sarah: Morgan just said, I think, when she came back from leave, I was catching up with her. And then she was on some coaching calls with clients and she shared part of it with me. And I just had this conversation with one of our clients, and she said, "everybody on our team. I love them. Like I really like these people. I work with them every day, but I really enjoy working with them." And she said, "if anybody on the team came to me with any task and said, 'Hey, like I could really use your help on this.'" She says, "I would do it in a heartbeat. I wouldn't even flinch. I would do it in a heartbeat and I would want to do it because I care about these people and I want to help them."  [00:09:34] Jason: And that's because we've created a culture initially entirely around what I want. Like I as the visionary gets to set the culture of the company and I created values and everything. [00:09:47] Now, when Sarah became an owner, we took a fresh look at them. And we revisit them and then I don't think we really changed much.  [00:09:55] Sarah: No, we didn't. I gave her an opportunity to have input, but... [00:09:59] would you, if I wasn't a value match, would you have brought me into the company? You wouldn't have hired me, but nevermind ownership of the company. You don't give ownership of a company to somebody that's like not a culture.  [00:10:10] Jason: If you weren't a value match, we probably wouldn't be married. And so this is the thing. There's a lot of couples in property management. I've noticed we get a lot of couple clients, husband and wife teams. [00:10:21] And it's very typical that the husband is more visionary, sales, wild, cowboy, entrepreneur and that the wife is like stable, crusher of all hopes and dreams, just kidding, grounded, practical, make sure everything works operator personality type. Yeah.  [00:10:38] Sarah: Sometimes we do see, they're like, "we're going to do this crazy big thing!" [00:10:41] And operators were like, "we can't afford that. Cool, but that sounds really insane. So what can we actually do and how can we actually make it happen?" So like we are the ones who make sure that things happen instead of just,  [00:10:57] Jason: yeah.  [00:10:57] Sarah: We're not the crusher of the dreams. [00:10:58] We're the dream makers.  [00:11:00] Jason: They're the dream. Yeah. They bring it into reality. The "maker-happeners". ,  [00:11:04] That's good. That's really good.  [00:11:05] Sarah: It's so good. Madi's going to laugh so hard when she's editing this. She's going to go, "that's not a word."  [00:11:10] Jason: Maker-happeners.  [00:11:11] Sarah: The word now, Madi.  [00:11:13] Jason: This is my Maker-happener. [00:11:15] And yeah, we've got this mutual respect that exists on the team, and if you don't like your team, be honest. If your team increases your pressure and noise, if they stress you out, if you are frustrated at your team members, you have the wrong team and it's your fault. You created it, you allowed it, and you kept these people because you probably thought that's just how business works or that's what's available.  [00:11:40] Sarah: Even if you're like, "Oh no, I like everybody," but does everybody like everybody else? Because if your team doesn't like each other, how quick do you think they're going to be to really jump in and help the other one? Because everybody needs help at some point. [00:11:52] Like deadlines come and things happen or whatever. Like summer happens and we're like, "Oh my God! I thought like I had more time on this and all these leases are due. Can somebody help me?" There is going to be a point in which someone on your team needs help from somebody else that doesn't usually do that thing. [00:12:07] And if they don't like each other, they're not going to help each other. They're going to go, "Oh yeah, look at Susie. She can't even do her own job."  [00:12:14] Jason: Yeah. If you have office politics, you've got a culture problem. If you've got you may have team members that secretly don't even like you and you may not know it, but you can tell. You can feel it. [00:12:25] Most employees probably here in the U. S., that standard American employee doesn't really like their job. They just want safety and certainty. They want stability. They're not there because it's giving them a sense of fulfillment, freedom, contribution, support. It's like the best thing and they love it. [00:12:41] So that means they're B players. A players are what we have on our team at DoorGrow. B players are what one of my mentors called hiders. Their secret goal if they were really honest would be to do as little work as possible, get paid as much as possible, and then they go and complain about you and live for the weekend. [00:13:02] And so if they love the weekend way more than they love their day-to-day, there's probably a problem. Like you want team members that are like, "man, I'm really excited. I love getting to do what I get to do." If I didn't have the role that I have or get to do what I get to do, I would feel probably lost, depressed, and bored out of my mind. [00:13:23] I love getting to do what I get to do. And my guess is that most of the people on my team would probably feel that same way. If they just had nothing to do. So I don't know, maybe there's some that would love to just not work ever a day in their life. I don't know. But for me, that would be crazy. [00:13:39] Sarah: Not anymore.  [00:13:40] Jason: So what else can we talk about related to getting rid of these hats? Because in the beginning they're wearing every hat. How did they decide which had to get off first?  [00:13:49] Sarah: What are the things that you like? Because those are the things you should keep. [00:13:54] And not just "Oh, that's annoying," or like "it's okay, but I don't love it." The things that you really don't like, the things where, like for me it was talking to tenants, that was what it was for me, and sales. I hated sales. I hated doing sales. I was really good at it, but I just, I hated it. Look at, the things that you do and the things that you like, you tend to get them done pretty quickly. Yeah, if you like going through emails. You're going to do that and there's going to be very little friction there. [00:14:23] No one's going to have to say "Oh, did you check your email?" But if you hate going through emails and you're like, "oh my god. Like why is email even a thing? I don't even know why we have to do this," You're going to procrastinate. Yeah. It's going to build up and you're probably not the right person to be doing it. [00:14:41] Jason: Yeah. If there's anything that's been on your to do list for more than a month, it's probably because you are not the person that should be doing it. That's a pretty big clue. One of the big mistakes I see people make when getting their initial hire is they try and find team members to wear multiple hats. [00:14:57] They're like, "I'm going to get an appointment setter slash assistant."  [00:15:02] Sarah: My favorite is, "my operator is also going to do sales for me."  [00:15:05] Jason: Oh yeah.  [00:15:06] Sarah: No, they're not.  [00:15:08] Jason: And why that's a problem is these are opposite personality types. If we're picking people that are two different personality types. If we're giving them a role that's two different personality types, then we are setting them up for some sort of failure. [00:15:21] And they're not going to really do well at the one that is not their personality type. And so we need to make sure we're not throwing multiple hats onto a person. We're trying to offload multiple hats that are different personality types. It's not going to work. We need specialists that are the right personality for the role. [00:15:39] So at DoorGrow, we are experts on matching the right personality types, knowing the personality types that you need for particular roles. There's a certain personality type for a BDM, for an operator, for a receptionist, for maintenance coordinator, property manager, leasing agent. [00:15:54] There's certain personality types that are good at these. And if you hire based on skill, you will miss the personality. And so hiring based on personality and based on culture are more important for the team and for the role. So usually the first person that we recommend in our DoorGrow code that most entrepreneurs get initially to get the most leverage would be an assistant. [00:16:19] Like maybe around 50 units, you should have your own assistant. But we've got clients that come to us with hundreds of doors and they still don't even have an assistant for themselves. They just keep hiring to take care of the business while not taking care of themselves. So they're not really taking hats off or giving up stuff. [00:16:35] They're just helping the business out. And so they end up more and more stressed the bigger the team gets. So a big piece of this is you need to make sure that you are taking care of yourself and the way we help our clients get clarity on themselves in clarity on what are their minus signs versus their plus signs, what they, what drains them versus what gives them energy is by doing a time study. [00:16:57] And this gives them a lot of clarity on how do I get to the next level? How do I offload the negative things so that I can spend more time in my area of genius and wearing the hats that I want to wear? And then we build out job descriptions and et cetera. So we have this whole process for taking entrepreneurs through to give them a lot of clarity. [00:17:14] Then later. Maybe around 200 plus the most important hire that you will ever make in the business will be to get an operator. If your spouse is already an operator, then you already have the most important person that you will ever bring into the business on your team, which is amazing and awesome. This person needs to be very intelligent. [00:17:34] They need to be sharp. They need to be driven to getting systems and processes dialed in. They want to see the business succeed. They handle all the details. They make everything work and they make sure that the team makes everything work. And this allows you to spend more time in the visionary role or in the sales role or whatever it is as a visionary entrepreneur that you really enjoy. [00:17:55] All right. Anything else related to hats?  [00:17:58] Sarah: So I think if you're listening to this and you're going, "yeah, but I'm still doing all this stuff and I would like to offload that, but I don't think I have the money to offload that," because this is what we hear next is, "yeah, that would be great, but I can't afford it. I can't afford to hire, two or three or eight people."  [00:18:18] Jason: So we have processes for this, but we have to back you out of the corner. You've painted yourself into, so first we do need to get you clarity on what you do enjoy and what would make you more money because it doesn't make sense to go get somebody if you could create more leverage, right? And so sometimes it's about creating more leverage related to time right now. So we have processes for helping you get even more done. Like one of my clients did a time study and recently and said that he had found that he was spending an hour after three o'clock, he was spending an hour to get things done that took him 10 minutes in the morning. [00:18:56] And so part of it is just clarity on your circadian rhythm, your time, like your energy, whether you're getting good enough sleep. So we worked on some hacks to increase his brain's bandwidth so that he could do more later in the day and get a lot more done. This may triple the output of what he can accomplish. [00:19:15] Then we have processes like daily planning time studies. We have these different things that help you get more yield from your day. We have a training called the priorities training. It talks about how Sarah was able to run her business with over 60 percent profit margin with only one part time person up to 260 units. [00:19:34] Which is crazy. They add units too.  [00:19:36] Yeah. C class properties. Yeah. In a rough area. Yeah. And she was able to reduce a lot of the communication, a lot of the friction and systematize the business so that it could run very efficiently. And so we train clients on how to do that. We get people come to us and they're like, "I'm burnt out at 50 units." [00:19:55] Sometimes they're like, "I'm stuck at a hundred units. Like I just can't handle anymore." And you can. There's ways of making this easier.  [00:20:04] Sarah: But you can't give nothing changes, right? So if everything stays the same, you're right. You can't, but you need to make some changes probably to yourself and in your business. [00:20:15] And then all of a sudden it will allow more space and you'll be able to add on more units.  [00:20:21] Jason: This is where good coaching comes in is we can help you get more yield from your day, create more bandwidth so that you can spend more time growing the business. We give you the strategies to grow. You make more money. [00:20:32] So a lot of times clients come to us in that scenario. I'm like, "let's create some space and then let's get you focusing on revenue generating stuff. Let's get you making a lot more money. And then let's make sure we hire what you actually need most. So you can spend more time making more money because then you're making smart, strategic moves when you hire. Instead of just hiring what the business needs, which can be really expensive if you make mistakes. And if you get any bad hires, we have a really great hiring system called DoorGrow hiring. One bad hire is going to cost you minimum 10 grand because you're going to spend probably at least three months on them of pay, there's a certain amount of money they're going to cost you and you're going to lose out on because they weren't generating revenue or helping to keep revenue. So there's a lot like bad hires are one of the most expensive and costly things you can do and it eats up your time, which is the most valuable resource in the business. [00:21:24] When you're onboarding and training somebody that's never going to be good at it. And so we can help with that as well, helping you get really good team members and collapse time on hiring. We've helped companies replace entire teams, cut their staffing costs in half like overnight, she does this stuff and and build out really good hiring systems and processes so that you can get people quickly and scale quickly as you're adding doors. [00:21:49] We have the stuff to help with all of that.  [00:21:51] Sarah: We do. Cool. If you're hearing this and you're like, "man, that would be really nice, then you should reach out. Contact us. Get on a call. Go to doorgrow.Com. You can see what we're all about, what we do. You can book a call. If you're like, "hey, this is for me and I'm ready to go right now," cool. [00:22:06] Sign up. Join our mastermind and you'll have some awesome coaches to support you.  [00:22:10] Jason: Yeah. Some of you listening are feeling really stressed out. Every business owner has been there. Some of you listening have felt really stuck. [00:22:19] It's just things aren't moving forward. You can't figure out why the marketing stuff isn't working. You're not really adding doors. You're not getting ahead. You're getting stressed. You're getting burnt out. You probably cannot see yourself doing this for five more years. And you need to reach out for help. [00:22:36] One of the most difficult things for entrepreneurs to do in especially early stage entrepreneurs is to humble ourselves. To be humble and to realize we could use some help and ask for help. We just we always think we can handle it all ourselves, like we've got it. "If I just watch enough youtube videos or try and get enough free stuff I can figure out." Or "if I just work hard enough I can save a dollar and do it myself or if I read enough books..." and so our goal at DoorGrow is to help you collapse time and make a lot more money. You can probably figure it all out, and I've seen people work really hard at doing this, but it will probably take you a decade to figure it all out. Whereas we could probably help you figure it out in a small fraction of the time. We've done it over and over again. So if you're feeling stuck or frustrated, reach out to us, let us help you make it make sense financially. We will help you justify the financial expense of working with us because really, a good coaching program should be making you money, not costing you money. [00:23:40] And if you do what we tell you to do, you will be making more money. Our program pays for itself. This is why we have probably the lowest churn rate in the entire industry. We keep clients because they're winning. [00:23:52] So reach out to us at DoorGrow. We would love to help you get going.  [00:23:55] Sarah: Be open, just be open to do things a little differently. [00:23:59] And if that's the case, if you are interested at all in having your company and your business and your life, just be better and different than this might be for you.  [00:24:11] Jason: The slowest path to growth is to do it all yourself or to think you can do it all yourself. That is it for today. So until next time to our mutual growth. Make sure you join our facebook group at doorgrowclub.Com. We have a bunch of free stuff in there and reach out to us at DoorGrow at doorgrow.Com We would love to help you grow your business. Bye everyone [00:24:30] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:24:57] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

At this point in the year, it's still early enough to make some plans to level up your property management business. One of the best ways to learn new strategies is by masterminding with other professionals. In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about the importance of strategic time as a business owner as well as some upcoming events for property management entrepreneurs. You'll Learn [02:06] The concept of your default future [06:43] The four reasons for having a business [10:26] 2024 events for property managers [16:51] Why masterminding matters [19:44] The ultimate event for property management entrepreneurs Tweetables “If you're working with any business, they should be helping you change your future outcomes.” “Worse is still different, but not probably the change we were hoping for.” “I never want to be the smartest person in the room. If I am, that means I'm in the wrong room.” “They say you're the sum of the five people that you are around the most or something like that, but I think your business will be the sum of the five property managers are the most connected to.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: They say you're the sum of the five people that you are around the most or something like that, but I think your business will be the sum of the five property managers are the most connected to and to be connected in our mastermind to other mastermind members  [00:00:13] Welcome DoorGrowers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrower. DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many real estate think you're crazy for doing it you think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:00:53] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. All right. [00:01:11] So before this show, we were talking about what we should be talking about in today's episode. So what are we going to talk about today?  [00:01:18] Sarah: We will talk about getting ready for your 2024 and prepping, getting your schedule ready for some events that we've got coming up. [00:01:27] Jason: Okay. It is January 26. January 2nd. Sorry. I don't know why I said that January 2nd. What's wrong with you? I don't know. I don't know. I think I saw the clock. All right, so it's January 2nd The new year has just started. This episode will probably come out on the main podcast a little bit later, but we wanted to kick things off for the new year. [00:01:49] Make sure that everybody gets in momentum. I think 2024 is going to be a wild year. Every election year is. It's going to be interesting. So let's talk about your property management business, how you can get more of what you want and grow. So let's talk about some of the stuff coming up. All right. Where should we start? [00:02:06] Sarah: Let's first start about talking about what did your 2023 look like? Was it what you wanted it to look like? Was it maybe a little different where there's some curve balls that came at you in the middle of the year and threw the whole plan that you had off balance and if so, what are you going to do differently in 2024? [00:02:26] So if you change nothing, if you do nothing different, your 2024 will look probably pretty similar to your 2023 if not worse because the market is totally different, at least part of 2023. The market was good. The real estate market was pretty decent. It's not so decent right now. It's a little bit cooler. [00:02:45] In fact, we're really close to it flipping over to a buyer's market.  [00:02:49] Jason: Okay. And for those of you listening, I think you'll really enjoy this concept. This is one of my favorite closes when it comes to converting people into clients or customers. And we call it the default future versus created future close. So it's important to take a look at your default future is. What you're going to get in the next year, and you can easily base it on what you did the last year and the year before that, and the year before that, you should have a pretty good idea of what your default future looks like. And if you're working with any business, they should be helping you change your future outcomes, right? They should be helping you improve your future. So for you selling to your clients, they should have a default future if they continue to DIY, do it themselves, manage their own property, work with the crappy property manager they've got now, whatever their current future is. [00:03:36] They should have a different created future if they're working with you and you need to help them see a different alternate future reality that includes you. So we run into people all the time that have had a very uncomfortable default future in property management. They have not grown for the last sometimes 10 years. [00:03:55] They've struggled. We have a client we just got on. He's been around 50 units for a decade. So that means it's a grind. That means there's a lot of churn, losing a lot of customers while you're adding customers and you're just not growing, right? Some of y'all are down in doors because I've heard the excuse of the pandemic or people, a bunch of my clients sold or whatever. [00:04:15] So a lot of you might be down in doors. And so your current future, default future looks even worse than last year or the year before, right? So we want to shift you towards a created future. Yeah, so how do we do that. Okay you do that with DoorGrow, right? So we are really good at helping create a different alternate reality for you a different future That includes us. [00:04:39] And because we've been able to coach and support so many, like hundreds of property management, business owners, we have tactics strategies that we've developed over time that we're always. Honing, improving, figuring out that have allowed us to increase our client's door count, make their operations smoother, improve their team, lower the entrepreneur's pressure and noise, decrease their stress, make the business more fun so they feel like they're more of a business owner. [00:05:07] And so these are the things that we do. At door girl. All right. And we've got a bunch of events that we do throughout the year that help to facilitate our vision in helping transform property management business owners and their businesses.  [00:05:20] Sarah: Now is a really good time to plan out "what do I want my year to look like this year? Do I want it to look like more of the same? Or do I want it to look different, but positively different" because it can still look different, just maybe worse. Worse is still different, but not probably the change we were hoping for. Yeah. So if you want your business and your life and your income and your team and your day to improve, then you may need to just be open to doing things a little bit differently than you have before. [00:05:52] And I think being that we're at the beginning of the year, this is a really good time to set some time aside for you. Set some time aside to make sure that you're prioritizing the things that you really want to get out of the business or out of your life. And how do we do that? There's a few events that we have coming up throughout the year. [00:06:12] You can find all of our events, all of the details on doorgrow.com/events. And that will show you our event calendar. What event, who it's for, what the cost is, where it's located, the dates, all of that kind of information is on there. And if you go all the way to the bottom, there's a quick little video I recorded with even more details. [00:06:34] So you can watch the whole thing. It's only a couple minutes long, or you can skip to the part that talks about the event you're interested in.  [00:06:41] Jason: Okay, cool. So for this new year, I would like to recap the four reasons, because I think. It's important to take a step back and assess your business through the lens of these four things. [00:06:55] We have a fifth reason, so maybe the five, but we want to take a look at your business through this lens and make sure you're actually headed in the right direction. Because it's very possible to be making more and more money in your business and become more and more miserable. And that's not the goal. [00:07:09] We didn't start businesses to become more miserable. We thought we started them to make more money, but what we really want is what more money can give us, right? We're hoping more money can give us more, number one, fulfillment. We get to spend more of our time doing the things we enjoy doing. More and more freedom. [00:07:24] We feel free. We don't feel trapped. We don't feel stuck. We don't feel like we're controlled. We don't feel like our business runs us. We don't feel like a slave or servant to our business. We feel free, right? Freedom. The third reason is Contribution. So if we have freedom and fulfillment, usually then we want to make a difference to others, right? [00:07:44] We want to benefit other people too. It's just innate I think in entrepreneurs, we want to change the world. We want to make it a better place. We want to improve things. We see problems and we're like, "I can make money solving that problem, right? That's contribution. That means making a difference to your family, to your team, to your clients, to everybody that you can have impact with and so contribution, I think, is one of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves. It feels really good to benefit others. And then the fourth reason is support. It's really difficult to have fulfillment, freedom, contribution if we don't have a team because then we end up doing and wearing all the hats that we don't want to wear and we should only be wearing the hats. Eventually, if we had the ultimate business, it gives us the ultimate level of fulfillment and freedom. Then we are only spending our time wearing the hats that we most enjoy wearing, which would mean we have a really good team that supports us and they enjoy wearing the hats that they're wearing and they take those off of our plates. [00:08:41] So we don't have to wear those hats. And so those are the four reasons. Now there is a fifth reason, and this is important to recognize. This is what your team members want more than the four reasons, typically. This is what your clients want often more than the four reasons... they want safety and certainty. [00:08:58] They want peace of mind. And so this is why a lot of people are willing to give up fulfillment, freedom, even contribution. They're willing to give those up and trade them in order to have safety and certainty. This is why they will go get a job. This is why they want to do what they're told to by maybe the media at times, right? [00:09:17] They want to be safe and entrepreneurs were a little bit, we're wired a little bit differently. We care more about having our freedom than safety and certainty, but we also want that too. And so having our business built out in a way that gives us all five of those things gives us the ultimate business and it allows us then to make a real impact and to have a really good team and to have less stress. [00:09:39] And so this is our primary goal with DoorGrow is to move you towards that. So take inventory. How do you feel you rate on each of these five areas right now? Do you feel you have safety and certainty? Do you feel like you have support and a really great team? You really feel supported in your business? [00:09:54] Do you feel like you've got freedom and fulfillment? You get to do the things that you really want to do. You're really enjoying your day today. You feel like you're making a difference out there and contributing in the best way. If you don't have those things, even though you have a bunch of money coming in or a lot of doors, you built the wrong business. [00:10:11] And it doesn't mean you need to change businesses or industries. It just means you need to change what your role is in that business. So 2024, let's move you towards more towards the four reasons. All right. So should we talk about some of the events we have coming up? Yeah, let's do it.  [00:10:26] Sarah: Let's talk about the events scheduled for 2024. [00:10:29] By the time this airs, it'll still be early in the year. So you should be able to mark your calendars for the things that sound interesting to you and make sure that you prioritize your business so that you are set up for success so that you are able to grow so that you are able to get more of the day to day stuff that you just don't enjoy the stuff that bogs you down off of your plate because this is not the life that you need to live, but it's really common for property managers, so make sure that you prioritize this stuff. [00:10:59] So let's talk about some of the events that we've got coming up this year. What's first? Okay. The first thing we have, this is for our clients only. It's in January this month now. And that is open to all of our current mastermind clients. We're going to San Diego, California. So these type of events if you join the DoorGrow Mastermind, you'll have access to them. [00:11:20] So what our tribe events are. They're usually smaller events. They're not huge with, like 100 people or more. They're smaller, more intimate events. So if you're a little bit more on the introverted side, then this event might be really good for you because you get to create close connections with people. [00:11:39] So Jason and I attend these events as well as some of our clients. So you'll get to network and spend some time with other property management business owners. And what we'll be doing, this event, we do a little bit of business and a little bit of fun. So we have some activities planned out there for the day and either before lunch or at lunch or probably both because that's what happened last time is we're going to be, talking shop, talking business, what's working, what's not working, what's your plan? [00:12:07] What are you working on? How can we help support you in that? So that's our first one.  [00:12:11] Jason: Okay, cool. Now we have some other things happening in January. [00:12:13] I'll just throw out there. If you're hearing this later and you miss this stuff, we might have recordings that you might be able to get access to if it's one of our public things. But make sure that you stay connected to us, follow us and are connected to us on social media or you're inside our Facebook group at doorgrowclub. com where we broadcast this and stream it live so that you don't miss out each week. January 11th in a week, we are going to do with our clients a jumpstart 2024 call on zoom where you can 10x your year. And we're going to talk about 10xing your growth in your property management business. [00:12:47] What's next? [00:12:48] Sarah: Okay. So the next event that's coming up will be open to everyone So if you're currently in our mastermind or not yet in our mastermind, or you were formerly in the mastermind, this will be open to everyone. We have our boardroom event that's coming up March 13th and 14th. It will be in Round Rock, Texas, which is just north of Austin. [00:13:10] And that event, we actually launched a lot of these events for the first time last year in 2023. We've had some success with them. Clients really enjoy these style of events, so we carried them on into this year. So the boardroom event, it is a smaller event. We will probably limit it to about six clients, like six businesses total. [00:13:35] For that reason, because we really want to be able to go deep. If the event gets too big, then we have to stay granular and more topical and this event, we call it boardroom because we sit on each other's boards, it's a two day event. And what we'll do is we'll really get in and we'll like tinker with your business and see, where are you spending your time? [00:13:55] What does your team look like, what does your profit margin look like? What does your revenue look like? Where are you struggling? Where are you succeeding? So we really get in and we go deep with clients on the smaller style events. So spots will be limited. If you're interested in attending any of our events or getting more information, just go to doorgrow.com/events. [00:14:15] All of the information is there.  [00:14:17] Jason: Yeah. The last boardroom room event that we did was pretty awesome. So everybody walked away with a really solid set of clarity and to do items to take their business to the next level. And what was interesting is, a lot of them were really stuck and couldn't see where they needed to go next. [00:14:34] And so this allows us the opportunity to really go deep with the business owners. And so they get a lot of value from this.  [00:14:40] Sarah: So that one is coming up March 13th and 14th. It will be in round rock, which is like North Austin here in Texas. That one is very focused on business. So we do break for lunch. [00:14:52] We do go for dinner. But it's boardroom style events. So we're in session almost all day. It goes from about nine to five  [00:14:59] Jason: is serious stuff. All right  [00:15:01] Sarah: Yes, cool. All right, then this one personally is my favorite is our premium mastermind events we also launched that last year for the first time and This one for me, it's just so fun because it mixes the two things that I love, which is business and travel. [00:15:16] I'm like all about both of these things. So if you're looking for an event that allows you to travel, do something fun, explore the area and really dive into your business in that same depth that we offer in the boardroom, then this event will be for you. So this we do reserve for our current and former mastermind clients only. [00:15:38] It's not open to everyone. But what we do is we get a luxury Airbnb or rental of some sort and we will rotate where they're held. This one that's coming up, it's April 9th and 10th. It will be in Bentonville, Arkansas. Very random spot, but the home is beautiful and it's huge. So we'll do some fun stuff in the area. [00:16:01] What we do, it's about a day and a half event. So we come in, we'll do a mastermind during the day, and then at night we spend some time just, hanging out at the property and getting to know each other and really connecting. It was really interesting because we did this last year in April, and then in May, we had our DoorGrowLive and the clients that attended our premium mastermind, oddly enough, they all also attended our DoorGrowLive, they were like their own little group of people because you just know each other so well, like you've spent time with each other. You really get to know each other's businesses and like business model and what are they doing and what are they all about? [00:16:39] So it was like so worth it for me. And it was amazing to see that at our DoorGrowLive. So if you are a current or former mastermind client, then. This might be a really great event for you.  [00:16:51] Jason: Yeah. These are super fun. It's more of a more personal, more of an intimate setting. [00:16:56] We're hanging out together in the same house. And so the conversations are just, they're just really great. And this allows you to create some relationships and friendships. They say you're the sum of the five people that you are around the most or something like that, but I think your business will be the sum of the five property managers are the most connected to and to be connected in our mastermind to other mastermind members and our mastermind members are different. They're just different than the typical NARPM crowd or the typical crowd of people that are involved in property management. They like love what they get to do and they've shifted more towards the four reasons. They have a much healthier mindset because we've installed a lot of mindset things. This is why we want to bring mastermind clients to these, they're just a different crowd and being able to hang out with other people that are playing a similar game that have a similar mindset is just like next level. [00:17:45] And so the relationships that are created, I think will last a lifetime, which is really awesome.  [00:17:50] Sarah: And I think that's a really good point is there's a lot to be said about who's in your circle and, who you're spending time with. So if your circle is doing things that are either similar or if they're even a step ahead of you, that's fantastic. [00:18:06] You're in the right circle. So I never want to be the smartest person in the room. If I am that means I'm in the wrong room.  [00:18:12] Jason: I like being the smartest person in the room sometimes, but not all the time  [00:18:15] Sarah: No, it's like when we run the events, yeah. I'm talking about when we attend.  [00:18:19] Jason: Yeah, we invest a lot. [00:18:20] We invest a lot And we're a part of groups and have mentors that are like beyond where we're at here at DoorGrow. And being able to create that for clients and facilitate that, is really awesome. We love being able to experience that as well. So great leaders, I think are also great followers. [00:18:36] And I think that's why we're able to deliver so much to our clients is because we go join programs and events and do things like this, where we're the student, where we're learning, where we're connecting with people, where we're masterminding, we want to bring the same value to those that we serve. [00:18:49] So we've gotten really great benefits. We've done some really cool trips, different places, hang out with other entrepreneurs, and we always get a lot out of it. Even when I don't think I'm going to, I'm like "it might be fun." But then it like, sometimes it's changed my life. It's been really impactful. [00:19:04] All right.  [00:19:05] Sarah: Next, we've got our DoorGrow Live. Okay. And as an added kicker this year, if you are a current mastermind client in our super system tier you get your own special event. Yay, so we're tacking it on right before DoorGrowLive, that way it's not additional travel, it's not really like hard to do, it's just gonna mash in with DoorGrowLive, so it will be the day before DoorGrowLive, which is, I believe it's a Thursday, it's May 16th, this is for our current SuperSystem clients only, we will be diving into all things SuperSystem, all things operations at this event. [00:19:41] Jason: Okay. So now DoorGrowLive. The DoorGrowLive is our ultimate event. This is where we get everybody to go, clients, non clients. It's our biggest event of the year. This is fun, interesting. We've got speakers, there's lots of interaction. We've got a lot of fun stuff going on. So this is going to be at the Kalahari Resort in Round Rock, Texas, which is the North Austin area. And it's a super cool resort has a huge indoor water park. It has a bunch of restaurants.  [00:20:11] Sarah: It is Friday and Saturday. It's May 17th and 18th. This is open to everyone. So whether you are a current, former, it doesn't matter. You are never in our mastermind, never a client at all. [00:20:21] Does not matter. It's open to everyone. This is our big event of the year. So we bring in a bunch of different property managers. We bring in some vendors, we bring in some speakers, like it's a two day event. And we're holding it in again, North Austin. So Round Rock, Texas. And the resort is really, it's really great. [00:20:43] It's very nice. The rooms are nice. They have plenty of restaurants to choose from. We did our DoorGrowLive last year there, and we liked it so much. We decided to go back.  [00:20:54] Jason: Yeah. Some venues treat you really well and some treat you really not well. And this one was really good. We really liked it. [00:21:00] Yeah, so make sure you get tickets to DoorGrow live. If you're wanting to just initially put your foot in the toe in the water to see what is it like around the DoorGrow culture? What is it like around DoorGrowers? What is it like around people that are involved in their ecosystem? This would be a great way to decide whether or not you should be spending a whole bunch of money with DoorGrow, right? [00:21:22] Is come hang out at DoorGrow live and see the magic that's going on and learn about the DoorGrow code, learn about people that are scaling up, talk to people that have their different lanyard colors with their different belt levels. Like we've got a whole program of ascension and, just like in martial arts, and so come check it out. [00:21:40] It really is a different thing. This is not your usual conference. Let's say it like that. This is like the ultimate conference We've decided like we want to make these the best that we can make them. So sometimes NARPM events are okay and sometimes NARPM events... maybe they're not. Some of them though, we like we've even had clients say well on some of them our event and NARPM event were right at the same time and they said "there's no way I would skip DoorGrowLive to go to a NARPM But what we've done is we've done everything that we could to make these conferences, the best conferences ever for property managers. [00:22:16] Sarah: There's a lot that goes into it like every little detail that we put into it, we really try to make sure that this is so beneficial and it's the big event of the year. It's open to everyone. So if you're thinking, "Hey I don't know what event I should go to," this would be a really good one to go to because it's so big and there's just so much that goes into it. [00:22:36] You'll get a lot out of it and it's not the boring conference that you're going to go and sit and fall asleep. And go, "Oh God, is it lunch yet. Can I go home now?" It's not like that at all. It's very exciting. There's a lot going on and we always provide really good opportunities to meet and talk with other people too. [00:22:55] So it's not just like you're in session all day long. There's a lot of opportunities to network with other property management business owners.  [00:23:02] Jason: Yeah we actively try to facilitate that because we know that that's one of the biggest benefits we've gotten from going to events. It's just the connections that we actively facilitate that. [00:23:11] I think what makes, the DoorGrowLive events stand out is that it's a bit more holistic. We're not just focused only on property management. We're focused on improving you and your life and focusing on entrepreneurship, focusing on taking things to the next level. So people get a lot out of it and it really can be life changing instead of just business changing.  [00:23:30] Sarah: So that's our big one. Now, if you like vacation style events, this one is a newer one. So we're testing this out this year. This is going to be our first one ever it's DoorGrow retreat. Yeah, so this will mix a little bit of business and lots of vacation style. [00:23:47] So this is open to your family to your kids to your spouse, whomever wants to join you and let it be like a business trip on a tax write off for sure So we will still do some business stuff and it's vacation style event, and that is going to be July 17th through 21st. And it will be in Punta de Mita in Mexico. [00:24:10] Yay. Super excited. So you will need a passport.  [00:24:12] Jason: Get those passports ready. Get them now. We're going to mexico. So yeah, and this is gonna be a nice resort.  [00:24:19] Sarah: Oh, it's yeah, it's very nice.  [00:24:21] Jason: We go to nice places. All right. Yeah. Cool. A little picky. All right. All right.  [00:24:25] Sarah: Then, second half of the year, we just mirror what we do the first half of the year. So for a lot of things, not for everything, but for a lot of them, we like to have a spring session and a fall session. [00:24:35] So our tribe meetup, we do two per year, one in January and then one in September. And again, this is for our current mastermind clients only. It will be September 11th will be our next in person tribe meetup location to be announced. Why? Because if you're a mastermind member, you guys get to submit your ideas and vote on it. [00:24:52] Then we have another premium mastermind event. So again, spring session, fall session, our fall session will be October 22nd and 23rd. This is open for our current and former mastermind clients. Only this one will be in Water Sound, Florida. We've got a really nice place there lined up. And then boardroom. So again, spring session, fall session. Our fall session will be November 20th and 21st, and we'll hold that here in round rock, Texas. Those are our events that we've got coming up. I'm super excited for all of them.  [00:25:21] Jason: Yeah. I don't know that we've ever talked about all the different events and there's a lot of virtual events and online things we do for our mastermind members as well, besides all of this. [00:25:29] And we've never really talked about this. I don't think as much on the podcast. So I'm sure there's people listening. They're like, "Oh, I didn't realize DoorGrow did all this stuff or had all this stuff going on." We've got a lot going on. Yeah. In fact, one of the consistent pieces of feedback we get from Mastermind members is, "wow, there's a lot." [00:25:44] There is a lot. It can be a little overwhelming in the beginning. So we really hold people's hand to make sure they can navigate everything in DoorGrow Academy, all of our events, all the online classes, everything that we've got going on to make sure that it is geared towards what they need most and they don't get distracted by all the shiny objects everywhere. [00:26:02] So it's important. But if you're interested in any of this. You're interested in coming and jumping into the DoorGrow ecosystem. We have plenty of free trainings we would love to throw at you based on what your current challenges are, so you can get an idea of how we can support you, how we can help you. We've got a lot of case studies and testimonials. [00:26:18] I think over a hundred now on our playlist on YouTube of our case studies you can check out. See if you can trust these DoorGrow people. And once you're beyond the paywall and you're in with our clients, you'll get it. It's pretty awesome. But between now and then, feel free to join our Facebook group, which I mentioned earlier, go to DoorGrowClub.com and you get access to our podcast live. You get access to our masterclasses that we promote. That are free, you get access to a lot of really cool stuff and we've got a bunch of stuff, cool stuff in the file section there as well. It's available.  [00:26:51] It's a great online community. And if you join it and you have to put in your email address, answer the questions and if we give you access, it's for property management business owners. We reject 70 percent of applicants. So it's a little bit exclusive, which makes it really cool. But if we give you access, you'll also get five emails that are sent to you. Like a fee Bible we're gonna send you gifts, we're gonna send you some free stuff.  [00:27:15] I think we've covered all the events. Sarah's always coming up with more ideas, so there might be more stuff that we're going to be doing. [00:27:21] But yes, this is a pretty good overview.  [00:27:22] Sarah: If you can give me the opportunity to travel, I'm probably going to take it.  [00:27:25] Jason: She'll add it to the program for sure. All right. All right. So we appreciate everybody hanging out with us. We hope that this has opened your eyes a little bit to some of the cool stuff that's going on in DoorGrow, inspiring you to get plugged into our ecosystem. [00:27:37] And we are all about helping property management business owners take their business to the next level and grow. And until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:27:46] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:28:12] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Table of contentsNote: links take you to the corresponding section below; links to the original episode can be found there.* Laura Duffy solves housing, ethics, and more [00:01:16]* Arjun Panickssery solves books, hobbies, and blogging, but fails to solve the Sleeping Beauty problem because he's wrong on that one [00:10:47]* Nathan Barnard on how financial regulation can inform AI regulation [00:17:16]* Winston Oswald-Drummond on the tractability of reducing s-risk, ethics, and more [00:27:48]* Nathan Barnard (again!) on why general intelligence is basically fake [00:34:10]* Daniel Filan on why I'm wrong about ethics (+ Oppenheimer and what names mean in like a hardcore phil of language sense) [00:56:54]* Holly Elmore on AI pause, wild animal welfare, and some cool biology things I couldn't fully follow but maybe you can [01:04:00]* Max Alexander and I solve ethics, philosophy of mind, and cancel culture once and for all [01:24:43]* Sarah Woodhouse on discovering AI x-risk, Twitter, and more [01:30:56] * Pigeon Hour x Consistently Candid pod-crossover: I debate moral realism with Max Alexander and Sarah Hastings-Woodhouse [01:41:08]Intro [00:00:00]To wrap up the year of Pigeon Hour, the podcast, I put together some clips from each episode to create a best-of compilation. This was inspired by 80,000 Hours, a podcast that did the same with their episodes, and I thought it was pretty cool and tractable enough.It's important to note that the clips I chose range in length significantly. This does not represent the quality or amount of interesting content in the episode. Sometimes there was a natural place to break the episode into a five-minute chunk, and other times it wouldn't have made sense to take a five-minute chunk out of what really needed to be a 20-minute segment. I promise I'm not just saying that.So without further ado, please enjoy.#1: Laura Duffy solves housing, ethics, and more [00:01:16]In this first segment, Laura, Duffy, and I discuss the significance and interpretation of Aristotle's philosophical works in relation to modern ethics and virtue theory.AARON: Econ is like more interesting. I don't know. I don't even remember of all the things. I don't know, it seems like kind of cool. Philosophy. Probably would have majored in philosophy if signaling wasn't an issue. Actually, maybe I'm not sure if that's true. Okay. I didn't want to do the old stuff though, so I'm actually not sure. But if I could aristotle it's all wrong. Didn't you say you got a lot out of Nicomachi or however you pronounce that?LAURA: Nicomachian ethics guide to how you should live your life. About ethics as applied to your life because you can't be perfect. Utilitarians. There's no way to be that.AARON: But he wasn't even responding to utilitarianism. I'm sure it was a good work given the time, but like, there's like no other discipline in which we care. So people care so much about like, what people thought 2000 years ago because like the presumption, I think the justified presumption is that things have iterated and improved since then. And I think that's true. It's like not just a presumption.LAURA: Humans are still rather the same and what our needs are for living amongst each other in political society are kind of the same. I think America's founding is very influenced by what people thought 2000 years ago.AARON: Yeah, descriptively that's probably true. But I don't know, it seems like all the whole body of philosophers have they've already done the work of, like, compressing the good stuff. Like the entire academy since like, 1400 or whatever has like, compressed the good stuff and like, gotten rid of the bad stuff. Not in like a high fidelity way, but like a better than chance way. And so the stuff that remains if you just take the state of I don't know if you read the Oxford Handbook of whatever it is, like ethics or something, the takeaways you're going to get from that are just better than the takeaways you're going to get from a summary of the state of the knowledge in any prior year. At least. Unless something weird happened. And I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense.LAURA: I think we're talking about two different things, though. Okay. In terms of knowledge about logic or something or, I don't know, argumentation about trying to derive the correct moral theory or something, versus how should we think about our own lives. I don't see any reason as to why the framework of virtue theory is incorrect and just because it's old. There's many virtue theorists now who are like, oh yeah, they were really on to something and we need to adapt it for the times in which we live and the kind of societies we live in now. But it's still like there was a huge kernel of truth in at least the way of thinking that Aristotle put forth in terms of balancing the different virtues that you care about and trying to find. I think this is true. Right? Like take one virtue of his humor. You don't want to be on one extreme where you're just basically a meme your entire life. Everybody thinks you're funny, but that's just not very serious. But you don't want to be a boar and so you want to find somewhere in the middle where it's like you have a good sense of humor, but you can still function and be respected by other people.AARON: Yeah. Once again, I agree. Well, I don't agree with everything. I agree with a lot of what you just said. I think there was like two main points of either confusion or disagreement. And like, the first one is that I definitely think, no, Aristotle shouldn't be discounted or like his ideas or virtue ethics or anything like that shouldn't be discounted because they were canonical texts or something were written a long time ago. I guess it's just like a presumption that I have a pretty strong presumption that conditional on them being good, they would also be written about today. And so you don't actually need to go back to the founding texts and then in fact, you probably shouldn't because the good stuff will be explained better and not in weird it looks like weird terms. The terms are used differently and they're like translations from Aramaic or whatever. Probably not Aramaic, probably something else. And yeah, I'm not sure if you.LAURA: Agree with this because we have certain assumptions about what words like purpose mean now that we're probably a bit richer in the old conception of them like telos or happiness. Right. Udaimnia is much better concept and to read the original text and see how those different concepts work together is actually quite enriching compared to how do people use these words now. And it would take like I don't know, I think there just is a lot of value of looking at how these were originally conceived because popularizers of the works now or people who are seriously doing philosophy using these concepts. You just don't have the background knowledge that's necessary to understand them fully if you don't read the canonical text.AARON: Yeah, I think that would be true. If you are a native speaker. Do you know Greek? If you know Greek, this is like dumb because then you're just right.LAURA: I did take a quarter of it.AARON: Oh God. Oh my God. I don't know if that counts, but that's like more than anybody should ever take. No, I'm just kidding. That's very cool. No, because I was going to say if you're a native speaker of Greek and you have the connotations of the word eudaimonia and you were like living in the temper shuttle, I would say. Yeah, that's true actually. That's a lot of nuanced, connotation and context that definitely gets lost with translation. But once you take the jump of reading English translations of the texts, not you may as well but there's nothing super special. You're not getting any privileged knowledge from saying the word eudaimonia as opposed to just saying some other term as a reference to that concept or something. You're absorbing the connotation in the context via English, I guess, via the mind of literally the translators who have like.LAURA: Yeah, well see, I tried to learn virtue theory by any other route than reading Aristotle.AARON: Oh God.LAURA: I took a course specifically on Plato and Aristotle.AARON: Sorry, I'm not laughing at you. I'm just like the opposite type of philosophy person.LAURA: But keep going. Fair. But she had us read his physics before we read Nicomachi.AARON: Think he was wrong about all that.LAURA: Stuff, but it made you understand what he meant by his teleology theory so much better in a way that I could not get if I was reading some modern thing.AARON: I don't know, I feel like you probably could. No, sorry, that's not true. I don't think you could get what Aristotle the man truly believed as well via a modern text. But is that what you? Depends. If you're trying to be a scholar of Aristotle, maybe that's important. If you're trying to find the best or truest ethics and learn the lessons of how to live, that's like a different type of task. I don't think Aristotle the man should be all that privileged in that.LAURA: If all of the modern people who are talking about virtue theory are basically Aristotle, then I don't see the difference.AARON: Oh, yeah, I guess. Fair enough. And then I would say, like, oh, well, they should probably start. Is that in fact the state of the things in virtue theory? I don't even know.LAURA: I don't know either.#2 Arjun Panickssery solves books, hobbies, and blogging, but fails to solve the Sleeping Beauty problem because he's wrong on that one [00:10:47]All right, next, Arjun Panixery and I explore the effectiveness of reading books in retaining and incorporating knowledge, discussing the value of long form content and the impact of great literary works on understanding and shaping personal worldviews.ARJUN: Oh, you were in the book chat, though. The book rant group chat, right?AARON: Yeah, I think I might have just not read any of it. So do you want to fill me in on what I should have read?ARJUN: Yeah, it's group chat of a bunch of people where we were arguing about a bunch of claims related to books. One of them is that most people don't remember pretty much anything from books that they read, right? They read a book and then, like, a few months later, if you ask them about it, they'll just say one page's worth of information or maybe like, a few paragraphs. The other is that what is it exactly? It's that if you read a lot of books, it could be that you just incorporate the information that's important into your existing models and then just forget the information. So it's actually fine. Isn't this what you wrote in your blog post or whatever? I think that's why I added you to that.AARON: Oh, thank you. I'm sorry I'm such a bad group chat participant. Yeah, honestly, I wrote that a while ago. I don't fully remember exactly what it says, but at least one of the things that it said was and that I still basically stand by, is that it's basically just like it's increasing the salience of a set of ideas more so than just filling your brain with more facts. And I think this is probably true insofar as the facts support a set of common themes or ideas that are kind of like the intellectual core of it. It would be really hard. Okay, so this is not a book, but okay. I've talked about how much I love an 80,000 hours podcast, and I've listened to, I don't think every episode, but at least 100 of the episodes. And no, you're just, like, not going to definitely I've forgotten most of the actual almost all of the actual propositional pieces of information said, but you're just not going to convince me that it's completely not affecting either model of the world or stuff that I know or whatever. I mean, there are facts that I could list. I think maybe I should try.ARJUN: Sure.AARON: Yeah. So what's your take on book other long form?ARJUN: Oh, I don't know. I'm still quite confused or I think the impetus for the group chat's creation was actually Hanania's post where he wrote the case against most books or most was in parentheses or something. I mean, there's a lot of things going on in that post. He just goes off against a bunch of different categories of books that are sort of not closely related. Like, he goes off against great. I mean, this is not the exact take he gives, but it's something like the books that are considered great are considered great literature for some sort of contingent reason, not because they're the best at getting you information that you want.AARON: This is, like, another topic. But I'm, like, anti great books. In fact, I'm anti great usually just means old and famous. So insofar as that's what we mean by I'm like, I think this is a bad thing, or, like, I don't know, aristotle is basically wrong about everything and stuff like that.ARJUN: Right, yeah. Wait, we could return to this. I guess this could also be divided into its component categories. He spends more time, though, I think, attacking a certain kind of nonfiction book that he describes as the kind of book that somebody pitches to a publisher and basically expands a single essay's worth of content into with a bunch of anecdotes and stuff. He's like, most of these books are just not very useful to read, I guess. I agree with that.AARON: Yeah. Is there one that comes to mind as, like, an? Mean, I think of Malcolm Gladwell as, like, the kind of I haven't actually read any of his stuff in a while, but I did, I think, when I started reading nonfiction or with any sort of intent, I read. A bunch of his stuff or whatever and vaguely remember that this is basically what he like for better or.ARJUN: Um yeah, I guess so. But he's almost, like, trying to do it on purpose. This is the experience that you're getting by reading a Malcolm Gladwell book. It's like talib. Right? It's just him just ranting. I'm thinking, I guess, of books that are about something. So, like, if you have a book that's know negotiation or something, it'll be filled with a bunch of anecdotes that are of dubious usefulness. Or if you get a book that's just about some sort of topic, there'll be historical trivia that's irrelevant. Maybe I can think of an example.AARON: Yeah. So the last thing I tried to read, maybe I am but haven't in a couple of weeks or whatever, is like, the Derek Parfit biography. And part of this is motivated because I don't even like biographies in general for some reason, I don't know. But I don't know. He's, like, an important guy. Some of the anecdotes that I heard were shockingly close to home for me, or not close to home, but close to my brain or something. So I was like, okay, maybe I'll see if this guy's like the smarter version of Aaron Bergman. And it's not totally true.ARJUN: Sure, I haven't read the book, but I saw tweet threads about it, as one does, and I saw things that are obviously false. Right. It's the claims that he read, like, a certain number of pages while brushing his teeth. That's, like, anatomically impossible or whatever. Did you get to that part? Or I assumed no, I also saw.AARON: That tweet and this is not something that I do, but I don't know if it's anatomically impossible. Yeah, it takes a little bit of effort to figure out how to do that, I guess. I don't think that's necessarily false or whatever, but this is probably not the most important.ARJUN: Maybe it takes long time to brush his teeth.#3: Nathan Barnard on how financial regulation can inform AI regulation [00:17:16]In this next segment, Nathan Barnard and I dive into the complexities of AI regulation, including potential challenges and outcomes of governing AI in relation to economic growth and existential security. And we compare it to banking regulation as well.AARON: Yeah, I don't know. I just get gloomy for, I think justified reasons when people talk about, oh yeah, here's the nine step process that has to take place and then maybe there's like a 20% chance that we'll be able to regulate AI effectively. I'm being facetious or exaggerating, something like that, but not by a gigantic amount.NATHAN: I think this is pretty radically different to my mainline expectation.AARON: What's your mainline expectation?NATHAN: I suppose I expect like AI to come with an increasing importance past economy and to come up to really like a very large fraction of the economy before really crazy stuff starts happening and this world is going very anonymous. Anonymous, anonymous, anonymous. I know the word is it'd be very unusual if this extremely large sector economy which was impacted like a very large number of people's lives remains like broadly unregulated.AARON: It'll be regulated, but just maybe in a stupid way.NATHAN: Sure, yes, maybe in a stupid way. I suppose critically, do you expect the stupid way to be like too conservative or too like the specific question of AI accenture it's basically too conservative or too lenient or I just won't be able to interact with this.AARON: I guess generally too lenient, but also mostly on a different axis where just like I don't actually know enough. I don't feel like I've read learned about various governance proposals to have a good object level take on this. But my broad prior is that there are just a lot of ways to for anything. There's a lot of ways to regulate something poorly. And the reason insofar as anything isn't regulated poorly it's because of a lot of trial and error.NATHAN: Maybe.AARON: I mean, there's probably exceptions, right? I don't know. Tax Americana is like maybe we didn't just kept winning wars starting with World War II. I guess just like maybe like a counterexample or something like that.NATHAN: Yeah, I think I still mostly disagree with this. Oh, cool. Yeah. I suppose I see a much like broader spectrum between bad regulation and good regulation. I agree it's like very small amount. The space of optimal regulation is very small. But I think we have to hit that space for regulation to be helpful. Especially in this especially if you consider that if you sort of buy the AI extension safety risk then the downsides of it's not this quite fine balancing act between too much whether consumer protection and siphoning competition and cycling innovation too much. It's like trying to end this quite specific, very bad outcome which is maybe much worse than going somewhat slowering economic growth, at least somewhat particularly if we think we're going to get something. This is very explosive rates for economic growth really quite soon. And the cost of slowing down economic growth by weather even by quite a large percentage, very small compared to the cost of sort of an accidental catastrophe. I sort of think of Sony iconic growth as the main cost of main way regulation goes wrong currently.AARON: I think in an actual sense that is correct. There's the question of like okay, Congress in the states like it's better than nothing. I'm glad it's not anarchy in terms of like I'm glad we have a legislature.NATHAN: I'm also glad the United States.AARON: How reasons responsive is Congress? I don't think reasons responsive enough to make it so that the first big law that gets passed insofar as there is one or if there is one is on the pareto frontier trading off between economic growth and existential security. It's going to be way inside of that production frontier or whatever. It's going to suck on every action, maybe not every act but at least like some relevant actions.NATHAN: Yeah that doesn't seem like obviously true to me. I think Dodge Frank was quite a good law.AARON: That came after 2008, right?NATHAN: Yeah correct. Yeah there you go. No, I agree. I'm not especially confident about doing regulation before there's some quite bad before there's a quite bad warning shot and yes, if we're in world where we have no warning shots and we're just like blindsided by everyone getting turned into everyone getting stripped their Athens within 3 seconds, this is not good. Both in law we do have one of those shots and I think Glass Seagull is good law. Not good law is a technical term. I think Glass Steagall was a good piece of legislation. I think DoD Frank was a good piece of legislation. I think the 2008 Seamless Bill was good piece of legislation. I think the Troubled Assets Relief Program is a good piece of piece of legislation.AARON: I recognize these terms and I know some of them and others I do not know the contents of.NATHAN: Yeah so Glass Eagle was the financial regulation passed in 1933 after Great Depression. The Tropical Asset Relief Program was passed in I think 2008, moved 2009 to help recapitalize banks. Dodge Frank was the sort of landmark post financial cris piece of legislation passed in 2011. I think these are all good pieces of legislation now. I think like financial regulation is probably unusually good amongst US legislation. This is like a quite weak take, I guess. It's unusually.AARON: So. I don't actually know the pre depression financial history at all but I feel like the more relevant comparison to the 21st century era is what was the regulatory regime in 1925 or something? I just don't know.NATHAN: Yeah, I know a bit. I haven't read this stuff especially deeply and so I don't want to don't want to be so overcompensant here but sort of the core pieces which were sort of important for the sort of the Great Depression going very badly was yeah, no distinction between commercial banks and investment banks. Yes, such a bank could take much riskier. Much riskier. Things with like custom deposits than they could from 1933 until the Peel Glass Eagle. And combine that with no deposit insurance and if you sort of have the combination of banks being able to do quite risky things with depositors money and no deposit insurance, this is quite dangerously known. And glassy repeal.AARON: I'm an expert in the sense that I have the Wikipedia page up. Well, yeah, there was a bunch of things. Basically. There's the first bank of the United States. There's the second bank of the United States. There's the free banking era. There was the era of national banks. Yada, yada, yada. It looks like 19. Seven was there was some panic. I vaguely remember this from like, AP US history, like seven years ago or.NATHAN: Yes, I suppose in short, I sort of agree that the record of sort of non post Cris legislation is like, not very good, but I think record of post Cris legislation really, at least in the financial sector, really is quite good. I'm sure lots of people disagree with this, but this is my take.#4 Winston Oswald-Drummond on the tractability of reducing s-risk, ethics, and more [00:27:48]Up next, Winston Oswald Drummond and I talk about the effectiveness and impact of donating to various research organizations, such as suffering-focused S-risk organizations. We discuss tractability, expected value, and essentially where we should give our money.AARON: Okay, nice. Yeah. Where to go from here? I feel like largely we're on the same page, I feel like.WINSTON: Yeah. Is your disagreement mostly tractability? Then? Maybe we should get into the disagreement.AARON: Yeah. I don't even know if I've specified, but insofar as I have one, yes, it's trapped ability. This is the reason why I haven't donated very much to anywhere for money reasons. But insofar as I have, I have not donated to Clrcrs because I don't see a theory of change that connects the research currently being done to actually reducing s risks. And I feel like there must be something because there's a lot of extremely smart people at both of these orgs or whatever, and clearly they thought about this and maybe the answer is it's very general and the outcome is just so big in magnitude that anything kind.WINSTON: Of that is part of it, I think. Yeah, part of it is like an expected value thing and also it's just very neglected. So it's like you want some people working on this, I think, at least. Even if it's unlikely to work. Yeah, even that might be underselling it, though. I mean, I do think there's people at CRS and Clr, like talking to people at AI labs and some people in politics and these types of things. And hopefully the research is a way to know what to try to get done at these places. You want to have some concrete recommendations and I think obviously people have to also be willing to listen to you, but I think there is some work being done on that and research is partially just like a community building thing as well. It's a credible signal that you were smart and have thought about this, and so it gives people reason to listen to you and maybe that mostly pays off later on in the future.AARON: Yeah, that all sounds like reasonable. And I guess one thing is that I just don't there's definitely things I mean, first of all, I haven't really stayed up to date on what's going on, so I haven't even done I've done zero research for this podcast episode, for example. Very responsible and insofar as I've know things about these. Orgs. It's just based on what's on their website at some given time. So insofar as there's outreach going on, not like behind the scenes, but just not in a super public way, or I guess you could call that behind the scenes. I just don't have reason to, I guess, know about that. And I guess, yeah, I'm pretty comfortable. I don't even know if this is considered biting a bullet for the crowd that will be listening to this, if that's anybody but with just like yeah, saying a very small change for a very large magnitude, just, like, checks out. You can just do expected value reasoning and that's basically correct, like a correct way of thinking about ethics. But even I don't know how much you know specifically or, like, how much you're allowed want to reveal, but if there was a particular alignment agenda that I guess you in a broad sense, like the suffering focused research community thought was particularly promising and relative to other tractable, I guess, generic alignment recommendations. And you were doing research on that and trying to push that into the alignment mainstream, which is not very mainstream. And then with the hope that that jumps into the AI mainstream. Even if that's kind of a long chain of events. I think I would be a lot more enthusiastic about I don't know that type of agenda, because it feels like there's like a particular story you're telling where it cashes out in the end. You know what I mean?WINSTON: Yeah, I'm not the expert on this stuff, but I do think you just mean I think there's some things about influencing alignment and powerful AI for sure. Maybe not like a full on, like, this is our alignment proposal and it also handles Sris. But some things we could ask AI labs that are already building, like AGI, we could say, can you also implement these sort of, like, safeguards so if you failed alignment, you fail sort of gracefully and don't cause lots of suffering.AARON: Right?WINSTON: Yeah. Or maybe there are other things too, which also seem potentially more tractable. Even if you solve alignment in some sense, like aligning with whatever the human operator tells the AI to do, then you can also get the issue that malevolent actors can take control of the AI and then what they want also causes lots of suffering that type of alignment wouldn't. Yeah, and I guess I tend to be somewhat skeptical of coherent extrapolated volition and things like this, where the idea is sort of like it'll just figure out our values and do the right thing. So, yeah, there's some ways to push on this without having a full alignment plan, but I'm not sure if that counts as what you were saying.AARON: No, I guess it does. Yeah, it sounds like it does. And it could be that I'm just kind of mistaken about the degree to which that type of research and outreach is going on. That sounds like it's at least partially true.#5: Nathan Barnard (again!) on why general intelligence is basically fake [00:34:10]Up next, Nathan Barnard is back for his second episode. And we talked about the nature of general intelligence, its relationship with language and the implications of specialized brain functions on the understanding of human cognitive abilities.NATHAN: Yes. This like symbolic like symbolic, symbolic reasoning stuff. Yeah. So I think if I was, like, making the if I was, like, making the case for general intelligence being real, I wouldn't have symbolic reasoning, but I would have language stuff. I'd have this hierarchical structure thing, which.AARON: I would probably so I think of at least most uses of language and central examples as a type of symbolic reasoning because words mean things. They're like yeah. Pointers to objects or something like that.NATHAN: Yeah, I think it's like, pretty confidence isn't where this isn't a good enough description of general intelligence. So, for instance so if you bit in your brain called, I'm using a checklist, I don't fuck this up vernacular, I'm not making this cool. Lots of connects to use words like pointers as these arbitrary signs happens mostly in this area of the brain called Berkeley's area. But very famously, you can have Berkeley's epaxics who lose the ability to do language comprehension and use the ability to consistently use words as pointers, as signs to point to things, but still have perfect good spatial reasoning abilities. And so, conversely, people with brokers of fascia who fuck up, who have the broker's reason their brain fucks up will not be able to form fluent sentences and have some problems like unsigned syntax, and they'll still be able to have very good spatial reasoning. It could still, for instance, be like, good engineers. Would you like many problems which, like, cost engineering?AARON: Yeah, I totally buy that. I don't think language is the central thing. I think it's like an outgrowth of, like I don't know, there's like a simplified model I could make, which is like it's like an outgrowth of whatever general intelligence really is. But whatever the best spatial or graphical model is, I don't think language is cognition.NATHAN: Yes, this is a really big debate in psycholinguistics as to whether language is like an outgrowth of other abilities like the brain has, whether language whether there's very specialized language modules. Yeah, this is just like a very live debate in psycholinguistics moments. I actually do lean towards the reason I've been talking about this actually just going to explain this hierarchical structure thing? Yeah, I keep talking about it. So one theory for how you can comprehend new sentences, like, the dominant theory in linguistics, how you can comprehend new sentences, um, is you break them up into, like you break them up into, like, chunks, and you form these chunks together in this, like, tree structure. So something like, if you hear, like, a totally novel sentence like the pit bull mastiff flopped around deliciously or something, you can comprehend what the sentence means despite the fact you've never heard it. Theory behind this is you saw yes, this can be broken up into this tree structure, where the different, like, ah, like like bits of the sentence. So, like like the mastiff would be like, one bit, and then you have, like, another bit, which is like, the mastiff I can't remember I said rolled around, so that'd be like, another bit, and then you'd have connectors to our heart.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: So the massive rolling around one theory of one of the sort of distinctive things that humans have disabilities is like, this quite general ability to break things up into these these tree structures. This is controversial within psycholinguistics, but it's broadly an area which I broadly buy it because we do see harms to other areas of intelligence. You get much worse at, like, Ravens Progressive Matrices, for instance, when you have, like, an injury to brokers area, but, like, not worse at, like, tests like tests of space, of, like, spatial reasoning, for instance.AARON: So what is like, is there, like, a main alternative to, like, how humans.NATHAN: Understand language as far as this specificity of how we pass completely novel sentences, as far as where this is just like this is just like the the academic consensus. Okay.AARON: I mean, it sounds totally like right? I don't know.NATHAN: Yeah. But yeah, I suppose going back to saying, how far is language like an outgrowth of general intelligence? An outgrowth like general intelligence versus having much more specialized language modules? Yeah, I lean towards the latter, despite yeah, I still don't want to give too strong of a personal opinion here because I'm not a linguistic this is a podcast.AARON: You're allowed to give takes. No one's going to say this is like the academic we want takes.NATHAN: We want takes. Well, gone to my head is.AARON: I.NATHAN: Think language is not growth of other abilities. I think the main justification for this, I think, is that the loss of other abilities we see when you have damage to broker's area and verca's area.AARON: Okay, cool. So I think we basically agree on that. And also, I guess one thing to highlight is I think outgrowth can mean a couple of different things. I definitely think it's plausible. I haven't read about this. I think I did at some point, but not in a while. But outgrowth could mean temporarily or whatever. I think I'm kind of inclined to think it's not that straightforward. You could have coevolution where language per se encourages both its own development and the development of some general underlying trait or something.NATHAN: Yeah. Which seems likely.AARON: Okay, cool. So why don't humans have general intelligence?NATHAN: Right. Yeah. As I was sort of talking about previously.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: I think I think I'd like to use go back to like a high level like a high level argument is there appears to be very surprised, like, much higher levels of functional specialization in brains than you expect. You can lose much more specific abilities than you expect to be able to lose. You can lose specifically the ability a famous example is like facebindness, actually. You probably lose the ability to specifically recognize things which you're, like, an expert in.AARON: Who does it or who loses this ability.NATHAN: If you've damaged your fuse inform area, you'll lose the ability to recognize faces, but nothing else.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: And there's this general pattern that your brain is much more you can lose much more specific abilities than you expect. So, for instance, if you sort of have damage to your ventral, medial, prefrontal cortex, you can say the reasoning for why you shouldn't compulsively gamble but still compulsively gamble.AARON: For instance okay, I understand this not gambling per se, but like executive function stuff at a visceral level. Okay, keep going.NATHAN: Yeah. Some other nice examples of this. I think memory is quite intuitive. So there's like, a very famous patient called patient HM who had his hippocampus removed and so as a result, lost all declarative memory. So all memory of specific facts and things which happened in his life. He just couldn't remember any of these things, but still perfectly functioning otherwise. I think at a really high level, I think this functional specialization is probably the strongest piece of evidence against the general intelligence hypothesis. I think fundamentally, general intelligence hypothesis implies that, like, if you, like yeah, if you was, like, harm a piece of your brain, if you have some brain injury, you might like generically get worse at tasks you like, generically get worse at, like at like all task groups use general intelligence. But I think suggesting people, including general intelligence, like the ability to write, the ability to speak, maybe not speak, the ability to do math, you do have.AARON: This it's just not as easy to analyze in a Cogsy paper which IQ or whatever. So there is something where if somebody has a particular cubic centimeter of their brain taken out, that's really excellent evidence about what that cubic centimeter does or whatever, but that non spatial modification is just harder to study and analyze. I guess we'll give people drugs, right? Suppose that set aside the psychometric stuff. But suppose that general intelligence is mostly a thing or whatever and you actually can ratchet it up and down. This is probably just true, right? You can probably give somebody different doses of, like, various drugs. I don't know, like laughing gas, like like, yeah, like probably, probably weed. Like I don't know.NATHAN: So I think this just probably isn't true. Your working memory corrects quite strongly with G and having better working memory generic can make you much better at lots of tasks if you have like.AARON: Yeah.NATHAN: Sorry, but this is just like a specific ability. It's like just specifically your working memory, which is improved if you go memory to a drugs. Improved working memory. I think it's like a few things like memory attention, maybe something like decision making, which are all like extremely useful abilities and improve how well other cognitive abilities work. But they're all separate things. If you improved your attention abilities, your working memory, but you sort of had some brain injury, which sort of meant you sort of had lost ability to pass syntax, you would not get better at passing syntax. And you can also use things separately. You can also improve attention and improve working memory separately, which just it's not just this one dial which you can turn up.AARON: There's good reason to expect that we can't turn it up because evolution is already sort of like maximizing, given the relevant constraints. Right. So you would need to be looking just like injuries. Maybe there are studies where they try to increase people's, they try to add a cubic centimeter to someone's brain, but normally it's like the opposite. You start from some high baseline and then see what faculties you lose. Just to clarify, I guess.NATHAN: Yeah, sorry, I think I've lost the you still think there probably is some general intelligence ability to turn up?AARON: Honestly, I think I haven't thought about this nearly as much as you. I kind of don't know what I think at some level. If I could just write down all of the different components and there are like 74 of them and what I think of a general intelligence consists of does that make it I guess in some sense, yeah, that does make it less of an ontologically legit thing or something. I think I think the thing I want to get the motivating thing here is that with humans yet you can like we know humans range in IQ, and there's, like, setting aside a very tiny subset of people with severe brain injuries or development disorders or whatever. Almost everybody has some sort of symbolic reasoning that they can do to some degree. Whereas the smartest maybe I'm wrong about this, but as far as I know, the smartest squirrel is not going to be able to have something semantically represent something else. And that's what I intuitively want to appeal to, you know what I mean?NATHAN: Yeah, I know what you're guessing at. So I think there's like two interesting things here. So I think one is, could a squirrel do this? I'm guessing a squirrel couldn't do this, but a dog can, or like a dog probably can. A chimpanzee definitely can.AARON: Do what?NATHAN: Chimpanzees can definitely learn to associate arbitrary signs, things in the world with arbitrary signs.AARON: Yes, but maybe I'm just adding on epicentercles here, but I feel like correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that maybe I'm just wrong about this, but I would assume that Chicken Tees cannot use that sign in a domain that is qualitatively different from the ones they've been in. Right. So, like, a dog will know that a certain sign means sit or whatever, but maybe that's not a good I.NATHAN: Don'T know think this is basically not true.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: And we sort of know this from teaching.AARON: Teaching.NATHAN: There's like a famously cocoa de guerrilla. Also a bonobo whose name I can't remember were taught sign language. And the thing they were consistently bad at was, like, putting together sentences they could learn quite large vocabularies learning to associate by large, I mean in the hundreds of words, in the low hundreds of words which they could consistently use consistently use correctly.AARON: What do you mean by, like, in what sense? What is bonobo using?NATHAN: A very famous and quite controversial example is like, coco gorilla was like, saw a swan outside and signed water bird. That's like, a controversial example. But other things, I think, which are controversial here is like, the syntax part of putting water and bird together is the controversial part, but it's not the controversial part that she could see a swan and call that a bird.AARON: Yeah, I mean, this is kind of just making me think, okay, maybe the threshold for D is just like at the chimp level or something. We are like or whatever the most like that. Sure. If a species really can generate from a prefix and a suffix or whatever, a concept that they hadn't learned before.NATHAN: Yeah, this is a controversial this is like a controversial example of that the addition to is the controversial part. Yeah, I suppose maybe brings back to why I think this matters is will there be this threshold which AIS cross such that their reasoning after this is qualitatively different to their reasoning previously? And this is like two things. One, like a much faster increase in AI capabilities and two, alignment techniques which worked on systems which didn't have g will no longer work. Systems which do have g. Brings back to why I think this actually matters. But I think if we're sort of accepting it, I think elephants probably also if you think that if we're saying, like, g is like a level of chimpanzees, chimpanzees just, like, don't don't look like quantitatively different to, like, don't look like that qualitatively different to, like, other animals. Now, lots of other animals live in similar complex social groups. Lots of other animals use tools.AARON: Yeah, sure. For one thing, I don't think there's not going to be a discontinuity in the same way that there wasn't a discontinuity at any point between humans evolution from the first prokaryotic cells or whatever are eukaryotic one of those two or both, I guess. My train of thought. Yes, I know it's controversial, but let's just suppose that the sign language thing was legit with the waterbird and that's not like a random one off fluke or something. Then maybe this is just some sort of weird vestigial evolutionary accident that actually isn't very beneficial for chimpanzees and they just stumbled their way into and then it just enabled them to it enables evolution to bootstrap Shimp genomes into human genomes. Because at some the smartest or whatever actually, I don't know. Honestly, I don't have a great grasp of evolutionary biology or evolution at all. But, yeah, it could just be not that helpful for chimps and helpful for an extremely smart chimp that looks kind of different or something like that.NATHAN: Yeah. So I suppose just like the other thing she's going on here, I don't want to keep banging on about this, but you can lose the language. You can lose linguistic ability. And it's just, like, happens this happens in stroke victims, for instance. It's not that rare. Just, like, lose linguistic ability, but still have all the other abilities which we sort of think of as like, general intelligence, which I think would be including the general intelligence, like, hypothesis.AARON: I agree that's, like, evidence against it. I just don't think it's very strong evidence, partially because I think there is a real school of thought that says that language is fundamental. Like, language drives thought. Language is, like, primary to thought or something. And I don't buy that. If you did buy that, I think this would be, like, more damning evidence.#6 Daniel Filan on why I'm wrong about ethics (+ Oppenheimer and what names mean in like a hardcore phil of language sense) [00:56:54][Note: I forgot to record an intro segment here. Sorry!]AARON: Yeah. Yes. I'm also anti scam. Right, thank you. Okay, so I think that thing that we were talking about last time we talked, which is like the thing I think we actually both know stuff about instead of just like, repeating New York Times articles is my nuanced ethics takes and why you think about talk about that and then we can just also branch off from there.DANIEL: Yeah, we can talk about that.AARON: Maybe see where that did. I luckily I have a split screen up, so I can pull up things. Maybe this is kind of like egotistical or something to center my particular view, but you've definitely given me some of the better pushback or whatever that I haven't gotten that much feedback of any kind, I guess, but it's still interesting to hear your take. So basically my ethical position or the thing that I think is true is that which I think is not the default view. I think most people think this is wrong is that total utilitarianism does not imply that for some amount of suffering that could be created there exists some other extremely large arbitrarily, large amount of happiness that could also be created which would morally justify the former. Basically.DANIEL: So you think that even under total utilitarianism there can be big amounts of suffering such that there's no way to morally tip the calculus. However much pleasure you can create, it's just not going to outweigh the fact that you inflicted that much suffering on some people.AARON: Yeah, and I'd highlight the word inflicted if something's already there and you can't do anything about it, that's kind of neither here nor there as it pertains to your actions or something. So it's really about you increasing, you creating suffering that wouldn't have otherwise been created. Yeah. It's also been a couple of months since I've thought about this in extreme detail, although I thought about it quite a bit. Yeah.DANIEL: Maybe I should say my contrary view, I guess, when you say that, I don't know, does total utilitarianism imply something or not? I'm like, well, presumably it depends on what we mean by total utilitarianism. Right. So setting that aside, I think that thesis is probably false. I think that yeah. You can offset great amounts of suffering with great amounts of pleasure, even for arbitrary amounts of suffering.AARON: Okay. I do think that position is like the much more common and even, I'd say default view. Do you agree with that? It's sort of like the implicit position of people who are of self described total utilitarians who haven't thought a ton about this particular question.DANIEL: Yeah, I think it's probably the implicit default. I think it's the implicit default in ethical theory or something. I think that in practice, when you're being a utilitarian, I don't know, normally, if you're trying to be a utilitarian and you see yourself inflicting a large amount of suffering, I don't know. I do think there's some instinct to be like, is there any way we can get around this?AARON: Yeah, for sure. And to be clear, I don't think this would look like a thought experiment. I think what it looks like in practice and also I will throw in caveats as I see necessary, but I think what it looks like in practice is like, spreading either wild animals or humans or even sentient digital life through the universe. That's in a non as risky way, but that's still just maybe like, say, making the earth, making multiple copies of humanity or something like that. That would be an example that's probably not like an example of what an example of creating suffering would be. For example, just creating another duplicate of earth. Okay.DANIEL: Anything that would be like so much suffering that we shouldn't even the pleasures of earth outweighs.AARON: Not necessarily, which is kind of a cop out. But my inclination is that if you include wild animals, the answer is yes, that creating another earth especially. Yeah, but I'm much more committed to some amount. It's like some amount than this particular time and place in human industry is like that or whatever.DANIEL: Okay, can I get a feel of some other concrete cases to see?AARON: Yeah.DANIEL: So one example that's on my mind is, like, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, right? So the standard case for this is, like, yeah, what? A hundred OD thousand people died? Like, quite terrible, quite awful. And a lot of them died, I guess a lot of them were sort of some people were sort of instantly vaporized, but a lot of people died in extremely painful ways. But the countercase is like, well, the alternative to that would have been like, an incredibly grueling land invasion of Japan, where many more people would have died or know regardless of what the actual alternatives were. If you think about the atomic bombings, do you think that's like the kind of infliction of suffering where there's just not an offsetting amount of pleasure that could make that okay?AARON: My intuition is no, that it is offsettable, but I would also emphasize that given the actual historical contingencies, the alternative, the implicit case for the bombing includes reducing suffering elsewhere rather than merely creating happiness. There can definitely be two bad choices that you have to make or something. And my claim doesn't really pertain to that, at least not directly.#7: Holly Elmore on AI pause, wild animal welfare, and some cool biology things I couldn't fully follow but maybe you can [01:04:00]Up next, Holly Elmore and I discuss the complexities and implications of AI development and open sourcing. We talk about protests and ethical considerations around her, um, uh, campaign to pause the development of frontier AI systems until, until we can tell that they're safe.AARON: So what's the plan? Do you have a plan? You don't have to have a plan. I don't have plans very much.HOLLY: Well, right now I'm hopeful about the UK AI summit. Pause AI and I have planned a multi city protest on the 21 October to encourage the UK AI Safety Summit to focus on safety first and to have as a topic arranging a pause or that of negotiation. There's a lot of a little bit upsetting advertising for that thing that's like, we need to keep up capabilities too. And I just think that's really a secondary objective. And that's how I wanted to be focused on safety. So I'm hopeful about the level of global coordination that we're already seeing. It's going so much faster than we thought. Already the UN Secretary General has been talking about this and there have been meetings about this. It's happened so much faster at the beginning of this year. Nobody thought we could talk about nobody was thinking we'd be talking about this as a mainstream topic. And then actually governments have been very receptive anyway. So right now I'm focused on other than just influencing opinion, the targets I'm focused on, or things like encouraging these international like, I have a protest on Friday, my first protest that I'm leading and kind of nervous that's against Meta. It's at the Meta building in San Francisco about their sharing of model weights. They call it open source. It's like not exactly open source, but I'm probably not going to repeat that message because it's pretty complicated to explain. I really love the pause message because it's just so hard to misinterpret and it conveys pretty clearly what we want very quickly. And you don't have a lot of bandwidth and advocacy. You write a lot of materials for a protest, but mostly what people see is the title.AARON: That's interesting because I sort of have the opposite sense. I agree that in terms of how many informational bits you're conveying in a particular phrase, pause AI is simpler, but in some sense it's not nearly as obvious. At least maybe I'm more of a tech brain person or whatever. But why that is good, as opposed to don't give extremely powerful thing to the worst people in the world. That's like a longer everyone.HOLLY: Maybe I'm just weird. I've gotten the feedback from open source ML people is the number one thing is like, it's too late, there's already super powerful models. There's nothing you can do to stop us, which sounds so villainous, I don't know if that's what they mean. Well, actually the number one message is you're stupid, you're not an ML engineer. Which like, okay, number two is like, it's too late, there's nothing you can do. There's all of these other and Meta is not even the most powerful generator of models that it share of open source models. I was like, okay, fine. And I don't know, I don't think that protesting too much is really the best in these situations. I just mostly kind of let that lie. I could give my theory of change on this and why I'm focusing on Meta. Meta is a large company I'm hoping to have influence on. There is a Meta building in San Francisco near where yeah, Meta is the biggest company that is doing this and I think there should be a norm against model weight sharing. I was hoping it would be something that other employees of other labs would be comfortable attending and that is a policy that is not shared across the labs. Obviously the biggest labs don't do it. So OpenAI is called OpenAI but very quickly decided not to do that. Yeah, I kind of wanted to start in a way that made it more clear than pause AI. Does that anybody's welcome something? I thought a one off issue like this that a lot of people could agree and form a coalition around would be good. A lot of people think that this is like a lot of the open source ML people think know this is like a secret. What I'm saying is secretly an argument for tyranny. I just want centralization of power. I just think that there are elites that are better qualified to run everything. It was even suggested I didn't mention China. It even suggested that I was racist because I didn't think that foreign people could make better AIS than Meta.AARON: I'm grimacing here. The intellectual disagreeableness, if that's an appropriate term or something like that. Good on you for standing up to some pretty bad arguments.HOLLY: Yeah, it's not like that worth it. I'm lucky that I truly am curious about what people think about stuff like that. I just find it really interesting. I spent way too much time understanding the alt. Right. For instance, I'm kind of like sure I'm on list somewhere because of the forums I was on just because I was interested and it is something that serves me well with my adversaries. I've enjoyed some conversations with people where I kind of like because my position on all this is that look, I need to be convinced and the public needs to be convinced that this is safe before we go ahead. So I kind of like not having to be the smart person making the arguments. I kind of like being like, can you explain like I'm five. I still don't get it. How does this work?AARON: Yeah, no, I was thinking actually not long ago about open source. Like the phrase has such a positive connotation and in a lot of contexts it really is good. I don't know. I'm glad that random tech I don't know, things from 2004 or whatever, like the reddit source code is like all right, seems cool that it's open source. I don't actually know if that was how that right. But yeah, I feel like maybe even just breaking down what the positive connotation comes from and why it's in people's self. This is really what I was thinking about, is like, why is it in people's self interest to open source things that they made and that might break apart the allure or sort of ethical halo that it has around it? And I was thinking it probably has something to do with, oh, this is like how if you're a tech person who makes some cool product, you could try to put a gate around it by keeping it closed source and maybe trying to get intellectual property or something. But probably you're extremely talented already, or pretty wealthy. Definitely can be hired in the future. And if you're not wealthy yet I don't mean to put things in just materialist terms, but basically it could easily be just like in a yeah, I think I'll probably take that bit out because I didn't mean to put it in strictly like monetary terms, but basically it just seems like pretty plausibly in an arbitrary tech person's self interest, broadly construed to, in fact, open source their thing, which is totally fine and normal.HOLLY: I think that's like 99 it's like a way of showing magnanimity showing, but.AARON: I don't make this sound so like, I think 99.9% of human behavior is like this. I'm not saying it's like, oh, it's some secret, terrible self interested thing, but just making it more mechanistic. Okay, it's like it's like a status thing. It's like an advertising thing. It's like, okay, you're not really in need of direct economic rewards, or sort of makes sense to play the long game in some sense, and this is totally normal and fine, but at the end of the day, there's reasons why it makes sense, why it's in people's self interest to open source.HOLLY: Literally, the culture of open source has been able to bully people into, like, oh, it's immoral to keep it for yourself. You have to release those. So it's just, like, set the norms in a lot of ways, I'm not the bully. Sounds bad, but I mean, it's just like there is a lot of pressure. It looks bad if something is closed source.AARON: Yeah, it's kind of weird that Meta I don't know, does Meta really think it's in their I don't know. Most economic take on this would be like, oh, they somehow think it's in their shareholders interest to open source.HOLLY: There are a lot of speculations on why they're doing this. One is that? Yeah, their models aren't as good as the top labs, but if it's open source, then open source quote, unquote then people will integrate it llama Two into their apps. Or People Will Use It And Become I don't know, it's a little weird because I don't know why using llama Two commits you to using llama Three or something, but it just ways for their models to get in in places where if you just had to pay for their models too, people would go for better ones. That's one thing. Another is, yeah, I guess these are too speculative. I don't want to be seen repeating them since I'm about to do this purchase. But there's speculation that it's in best interests in various ways to do this. I think it's possible also that just like so what happened with the release of Llama One is they were going to allow approved people to download the weights, but then within four days somebody had leaked Llama One on four chan and then they just were like, well, whatever, we'll just release the weights. And then they released Llama Two with the weights from the beginning. And it's not like 100% clear that they intended to do full open source or what they call Open source. And I keep saying it's not open source because this is like a little bit of a tricky point to make. So I'm not emphasizing it too much. So they say that they're open source, but they're not. The algorithms are not open source. There are open source ML models that have everything open sourced and I don't think that that's good. I think that's worse. So I don't want to criticize them for that. But they're saying it's open source because there's all this goodwill associated with open source. But actually what they're doing is releasing the product for free or like trade secrets even you could say like things that should be trade secrets. And yeah, they're telling people how to make it themselves. So it's like a little bit of a they're intentionally using this label that has a lot of positive connotations but probably according to Open Source Initiative, which makes the open Source license, it should be called something else or there should just be like a new category for LLMs being but I don't want things to be more open. It could easily sound like a rebuke that it should be more open to make that point. But I also don't want to call it Open source because I think Open source software should probably does deserve a lot of its positive connotation, but they're not releasing the part, that the software part because that would cut into their business. I think it would be much worse. I think they shouldn't do it. But I also am not clear on this because the Open Source ML critics say that everyone does have access to the same data set as Llama Two. But I don't know. Llama Two had 7 billion tokens and that's more than GPT Four. And I don't understand all of the details here. It's possible that the tokenization process was different or something and that's why there were more. But Meta didn't say what was in the longitude data set and usually there's some description given of what's in the data set that led some people to speculate that maybe they're using private data. They do have access to a lot of private data that shouldn't be. It's not just like the common crawl backup of the Internet. Everybody's basing their training on that and then maybe some works of literature they're not supposed to. There's like a data set there that is in question, but metas is bigger than bigger than I think well, sorry, I don't have a list in front of me. I'm not going to get stuff wrong, but it's bigger than kind of similar models and I thought that they have access to extra stuff that's not public. And it seems like people are asking if maybe that's part of the training set. But yeah, the ML people would have or the open source ML people that I've been talking to would have believed that anybody who's decent can just access all of the training sets that they've all used.AARON: Aside, I tried to download in case I'm guessing, I don't know, it depends how many people listen to this. But in one sense, for a competent ML engineer, I'm sure open source really does mean that. But then there's people like me. I don't know. I knew a little bit of R, I think. I feel like I caught on the very last boat where I could know just barely enough programming to try to learn more, I guess. Coming out of college, I don't know, a couple of months ago, I tried to do the thing where you download Llama too, but I tried it all and now I just have like it didn't work. I have like a bunch of empty folders and I forget got some error message or whatever. Then I tried to train my own tried to train my own model on my MacBook. It just printed. That's like the only thing that a language model would do because that was like the most common token in the training set. So anyway, I'm just like, sorry, this is not important whatsoever.HOLLY: Yeah, I feel like torn about this because I used to be a genomicist and I used to do computational biology and it was not machine learning, but I used a highly parallel GPU cluster. And so I know some stuff about it and part of me wants to mess around with it, but part of me feels like I shouldn't get seduced by this. I am kind of worried that this has happened in the AI safety community. It's always been people who are interested in from the beginning, it was people who are interested in singularity and then realized there was this problem. And so it's always been like people really interested in tech and wanting to be close to it. And I think we've been really influenced by our direction, has been really influenced by wanting to be where the action is with AI development. And I don't know that that was right.AARON: Not personal, but I guess individual level I'm not super worried about people like you and me losing the plot by learning more about ML on their personal.HOLLY: You know what I mean? But it does just feel sort of like I guess, yeah, this is maybe more of like a confession than, like a point. But it does feel a little bit like it's hard for me to enjoy in good conscience, like, the cool stuff.AARON: Okay. Yeah.HOLLY: I just see people be so attached to this as their identity. They really don't want to go in a direction of not pursuing tech because this is kind of their whole thing. And what would they do if we weren't working toward AI? This is a big fear that people express to me with they don't say it in so many words usually, but they say things like, well, I don't want AI to never get built about a pause. Which, by the way, just to clear up, my assumption is that a pause would be unless society ends for some other reason, that a pause would eventually be lifted. It couldn't be forever. But some people are worried that if you stop the momentum now, people are just so luddite in their insides that we would just never pick it up again. Or something like that. And, yeah, there's some identity stuff that's been expressed. Again, not in so many words to me about who will we be if we're just sort of like activists instead of working on.AARON: Maybe one thing that we might actually disagree on. It's kind of important is whether so I think we both agree that Aipause is better than the status quo, at least broadly, whatever. I know that can mean different things, but yeah, maybe I'm not super convinced, actually, that if I could just, like what am I trying to say? Maybe at least right now, if I could just imagine the world where open eye and Anthropic had a couple more years to do stuff and nobody else did, that would be better. I kind of think that they are reasonably responsible actors. And so I don't k

IntroAt the gracious invitation of AI Safety Twitter-fluencer Sarah Hastings-Woodhouse, I appeared on the very first episode of her new podcast “Consistently Candid” to debate moral realism (or something kinda like that, I guess; see below) with fellow philosophy nerd and EA Twitter aficionado Max Alexander, alongside Sarah as moderator and judge of sorts.What I believeIn spite of the name of the episode and the best of my knowledge/understanding a few days ago, it turns out my stance may not be ~genuine~ moral realism. Here's my basic meta-ethical take:* Descriptive statements that concern objective relative goodness or badness (e.g., "it is objectively for Sam to donate $20 than to buy an expensive meal that costs $20 more than a similar, less fancy meal”) can be and sometimes are true; but* Genuinely normative claims like “Sam should (!) donate $20 and should not buy that fancy meal” are never objectively true.Of course the label per se doesn't really matter. But for a bunch of reasons it still seems wise to figure out which label really does work best.Some definitionsStanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Moral realists are those who think that, in these respects, things should be taken at face value—moral claims do purport to report facts and are true if they get the facts right. Moreover, they hold, at least some moral claims actually are true. That much is the common and more or less defining ground of moral realism (although some accounts of moral realism see it as involving additional commitments, say to the independence of the moral facts from human thought and practice, or to those facts being objective in some specified way).Wikipedia:The robust model of moral realism commits moral realists to three theses:* The semantic thesis: The primary semantic role of moral predicates (such as "right" and "wrong") is to refer to moral properties (such as rightness and wrongness), so that moral statements (such as "honesty is good" and "slavery is unjust") purport to represent moral facts, and express propositions that are true or false (or approximately true, largely false, and so on).* The alethic thesis: Some moral propositions are in fact true.* The metaphysical thesis: Moral propositions are true when actions and other objects of moral assessment have the relevant moral properties (so that the relevant moral facts obtain), where these facts and properties are robust: their metaphysical status, whatever it is, is not relevantly different from that of (certain types of) ordinary non-moral facts and properties.And to settle the matter, here's what some LLM have to say.My prompt:Suppose a person believes the following:1: Descriptive statements that concern objective relative goodness or badness (e.g., "it is objectively for Sam to donate $20 than to buy an expensive meal that costs $20 more than a similar, less fancy meal”) can be and sometimes are true; but 2: Genuinely normative claims like “Sam should donate $20 and should not buy that fancy meal” are never objectively true.Is this person best categorized as a moral realist?ChatGPTGiven these two beliefs, the person's stance doesn't align completely with traditional moral realism, which typically asserts that there are objective truths about both moral facts (like the goodness or badness of actions) and moral duties (what one should or should not do). However, it also doesn't fully align with moral anti-realism, since the person believes in some form of objective truth regarding moral value.One possible categorization for this stance could be a form of "value realism" combined with "normative anti-realism" or "normative subjectivism." This would mean that the person believes in objective truths about what is better or worse (value realism) but thinks that what one ought to do (normative claims) is not a matter of objective truth but perhaps of subjective judgment or societal conventions.This position is quite sophisticated and might be best understood as a hybrid or intermediate position in the landscape of moral philosophy, rather than fitting neatly into the category of moral realism or its standard alternatives.Great, so much for trying to fit things into nice little buckets.Claude, fortunately, is more definitive:No, the view described is not best categorized as moral realism. Here's why:Moral realism is the view that there are objective moral facts or truths. A moral realist believes that some moral claims, including normative claims about what one should or shouldn't do, can be objectively and mind-independently true.The view in the example accepts that there can be objective truths about relative degrees of goodness or badness (claim 1). However, it denies that there are objective normative truths about what one should or shouldn't do (claim 2). By rejecting that genuine normative 'should/shouldn't' claims can be objectively true, the view denies a key commitment of moral realism - namely that moral claims can state objective normative facts. At best it allows for objective evaluative facts about goodness/badness, not prescriptive facts about obligations.So this view would be more accurately categorized as a form of moral anti-realism like non-cognitivism or error theory. It does not qualify as moral realism because of its rejection of the existence of objective normative truths that could make strong normative claims justified or true. The commitment to objective evaluative facts alone does not sufficiently qualify the view as realist in the metaethical sense.In summary, the view accepts objective "good/bad" facts but denies objective "should/shouldn't" facts. This combination puts it at odds with core commitments of moral realism, so it is better seen as an anti-realist view.I'm gonna disagree with Claude here, at least in that the bolded claim above (objective normative facts are a key part of moral realism) just seems…wrong? Like all the definitions could replace the term “moral fact” or “moral claim” with “normative fact” and “normative claim” but they do not!So I really don't have a great answer to which label works best. One of two ~human level chatbots giving me a definitive-sounding “anti-realism” answer is too much evidence for me, whose only formal philosophy training is an undergrad minor, to rule that one out. There are also good arguments, I think, for the “realist label,” as well as for “neither” (i.e., ‘secret third thing'). In fact all of these seem pretty similar in terms of argument convincingness/correctness. So, in sum,

Note: I can't seem to edit or remove the “transcript” tab. I recommend you ignore that and just look at the much higher quality, slightly cleaned up one below. Most importantly, follow Sarah on Twitter! Summary (Written by chatGPT, as you can probably tell)In this episode of Pigeon Hour host Aaron delves deep into the world of AI safety with his guest, Sarah Woodhouse. Sarah shares her unexpected journey from fearing job automation to becoming a recognized voice on AI safety Twitter. Her story starts with a simple Google search that led her down a rabbit hole of existential dread and unexpected fame on social media. As she narrates her path from lurker to influencer, Sarah reflects on the quirky dynamics of the AI safety community, her own existential crisis, and the serendipitous tweet that resonated with thousands.Aaron and Sarah's conversation takes unexpected turns, discussing everything from the peculiarities of EA rationalists to the surprisingly serious topic of shrimp welfare. They also explore the nuances of AI doom probabilities, the social dynamics of tech Twitter, and Sarah's unexpected viral fame as a tween. This episode is a rollercoaster of insights and anecdotes, perfect for anyone interested in the intersection of technology, society, and the unpredictable journey of internet fame.Topics discussedDiscussion on AI Safety and Personal Journeys:* Aaron and Sarah discuss her path to AI safety, triggered by concerns about job automation and the realization that AI could potentially replace her work.* Sarah's deep dive into AI safety started with a simple Google search, leading her to Geoffrey Hinton's alarming statements, and eventually to a broader exploration without finding reassuring consensus.* Sarah's Twitter engagement began with lurking, later evolving into active participation and gaining an audience, especially after a relatable tweet thread about an existential crisis.* Aaron remarks on the rarity of people like Sarah, who follow the AI safety rabbit hole to its depths, considering its obvious implications for various industries.AI Safety and Public Perception:* Sarah discusses her surprise at discovering the AI safety conversation happening mostly in niche circles, often with a tongue-in-cheek attitude that could seem dismissive of the serious implications of AI risks.* The discussion touches on the paradox of AI safety: it's a critically important topic, yet it often remains confined within certain intellectual circles, leading to a lack of broader public engagement and awareness.Cultural Differences and Personal Interests:* The conversation shifts to cultural differences between the UK and the US, particularly in terms of sincerity and communication styles.* Personal interests, such as theater and musicals (like "Glee"), are also discussed, revealing Sarah's background and hobbies.Effective Altruism (EA) and Rationalist Communities:* Sarah points out certain quirks of the EA and rationalist communities, such as their penchant for detailed analysis, hedging statements, and the use of probabilities in discussions.* The debate around the use of "P(Doom)" (probability of doom) in AI safety discussions is critiqued, highlighting how it can be both a serious analytical tool and a potentially alienating jargon for outsiders.Shrimp Welfare and Ethical Considerations:* A detailed discussion on shrimp welfare as an ethical consideration in effective altruism unfolds, examining the moral implications and effectiveness of focusing on animal welfare at a large scale.* Aaron defends his position on prioritizing shrimp welfare in charitable giving, based on the principles of importance, tractability, and neglectedness.Personal Decision-Making in Charitable Giving:* Strategies for personal charitable giving are explored, including setting a donation cutoff point to balance moral obligations with personal needs and aspirations.TranscriptAARON: Whatever you want. Okay. Yeah, I feel like you said this on Twitter. The obvious thing is, how did you learn about AI safety? But maybe you've already covered that. That's boring. First of all, do you want to talk about that? Because we don't have to.SARAH: I don't mind talking about that.AARON: But it's sort of your call, so whatever. I don't know. Maybe briefly, and then we can branch out?SARAH: I have a preference for people asking me things and me answering them rather than me setting the agenda. So don't ever feel bad about just asking me stuff because I prefer that.AARON: Okay, cool. But also, it feels like the kind of thing where, of course, we have AI. Everyone already knows that this is just like the voice version of these four tweets or whatever. But regardless. Yes. So, Sarah, as Pigeon Hour guest, what was your path through life to AI safety Twitter?SARAH: Well, I realized that a chatbot could very easily do my job and that my employers either hadn't noticed this or they had noticed, but they were just being polite about it and they didn't want to fire me because they're too nice. And I was like, I should find out what AI development is going to be like over the next few years so that I know if I should go and get good at some other stuff.SARAH: I just had a little innocent Google. And then within a few clicks, I'd completely doom pilled myself. I was like, we're all going to die. I think I found Geoffrey Hinton because he was on the news at the time, because he just quit his job at Google. And he was there saying things that sounded very uncertain, very alarming. And I was like, well, he's probably the pessimist, but I'm sure that there are loads of optimists to counteract that because that's how it usually goes. You find a doomer and then you find a bunch of more moderate people, and then there's some consensus in the middle that everything's basically fine.SARAH: I was like, if I just keep looking, I'll find the consensus because it's there. I'm sure it's there. So I just kept looking and looking for it. I looked for it for weeks. I just didn't find it. And then I was like, nobody knows what's going on. This seems really concerning. So then I started lurking on Twitter, and then I got familiar with all the different accounts, whatever. And then at some point, I was like, I'm going to start contributing to this conversation, but I didn't think that anybody would talk back to me. And then at some point, they started talking back to me and I was like, this is kind of weird.SARAH: And then at some point, I was having an existential crisis and I had a couple of glasses of wine or something, and I just decided to type this big, long thread. And then I went to bed. I woke up the next morning slightly grouchy and hungover. I checked my phone and there were all these people messaging me and all these people replying to my thread being like, this is so relatable. This really resonated with me. And I was like, what is going on?AARON: You were there on Twitter before that thread right? I'm pretty sure I was following you.SARAH: I think, yeah, I was there before, but no one ever really gave me any attention prior to that. I think I had a couple of tweets that blew up before that, but not to the same extent. And then after that, I think I was like, okay, so now I have an audience. When I say an audience, like, obviously a small one, but more of an audience than I've ever had before in my life. And I was like, how far can I take this?SARAH: I was a bit like, people obviously started following me because I'm freFreaking out about AI, but if I post an outfit, what's going to happen? How far can I push this posting, these fit checks? I started posting random stuff about things that were completely unrelated. I was like, oh, people are kind of here for this, too. Okay, this is weird. So now I'm just milking it for all its worth, and I really don't know why anybody's listening to me. I'm basically very confused about the whole thing.AARON: I mean, I think it's kind of weird from your perspective, or it's weird in general because there aren't that many people who just do that extremely logical thing at the beginning. I don't know, maybe it's not obvious to people in every industry or whatever that AI is potentially a big deal, but there's lots of truckers or whatever. Maybe they're not the best demographic or the most conducive demographic, like, getting on Twitter or whatever, but there's other jobs that it would make sense to look into that. It's kind of weird to me that only you followed the rabbit hole all the way down.SARAH: I know! This is what I…Because it's not that hard to complete the circle. It probably took me like a day, it took me like an afternoon to get from, I'm worried about job automation to I should stop saving for retirement. It didn't take me that long. Do you know what I mean? No one ever looks. I literally don't get it. I was talking to some people. I was talking to one of my coworkers about this the other day, and I think I came up in conversation. She was like, yeah, I'm a bit worried about AI because I heard on the radio that taxi drivers might be out of a job. That's bad. And I was like, yeah, that is bad. But do you know what else? She was like, what are the AI companies up to that we don't know about? And I was like, I mean, you can go on their website. You can just go on their website and read about how they think that their technology is an extinction risk. It's not like they're hiding. It's literally just on there and no one ever looks. It's just crazy.AARON: Yeah. Honestly, I don't even know if I was in your situation, if I would have done that. It's like, in some sense, I am surprised. It's very few people maybe like one, but at another level, it's more rationality than most humans have or something. Yeah. You regret going down that rabbit hole?SARAH: Yeah, kind of. Although I'm enjoying the Twitter thing and it's kind of fun, and it turns out there's endless comedic material that you can get out of impending doom. The whole thing is quite funny. It's not funny, but you can make it funny if you try hard enough. But, yeah, what was I going to say? I think maybe I was more primed for doom pilling than your average person because I already knew what EA was and I already knew, you know what I mean. That stuff was on my radar.AARON: That's interesting.SARAH: I think had it not been on my radar, I don't think I would have followed the pipeline all the way.AARON: Yeah. I don't know what browser you use, but it would be. And you should definitely not only do this if you actually think it would be cool or whatever, but this could be in your browser history from that day and that would be hilarious. You could remove anything you didn't want to show, but if it's like Google Chrome, they package everything into sessions. It's one browsing session and it'll have like 10,000 links.SARAH: Yeah, I think for non-sketchy reasons, I delete my Google history more regularly than that. I don't think I'd be able to find that. But I can remember the day and I can remember my anxiety levels just going up and up somewhere between 01:00 p.m. and 07:00 p.m. And by the evening I'm like, oh, my God.AARON: Oh, damn, that's wild.SARAH: It was really stressful.AARON: Yeah, I guess props for, I don't know if props…Is the right word, I guess, impressed? I'm actually somewhat surprised to hear that you said you regret it. I mean, that sucks though, I guess. I'm sorry.SARAH: If you could unknow this, would you?AARON: No, because I think it's worth maybe selfishly, but not overall because. Okay, yeah, I think that would plausibly be the selfish thing to do. Actually. No, actually, hold on. No, I actually don't think that's true. I actually think there's enough an individual can do selfishly such that it makes sense. Even the emotional turmoil.SARAH: It would depend how much you thought that you were going to personally move the needle by knowing about it. I personally don't think that I'm going to be able to do very much. I was going to tip the scales. I wouldn't selfishly unknow it and sacrifice the world. But me being not particularly informed or intelligent and not having any power, I feel like if I forgot that AI was going to end the world, it would not make much difference.AARON: You know what I mean? I agree that it's like, yes, it is unlikely for either of us to tip the scales, but.SARAH: Maybe you can't.AARON: No, actually, in terms of, yeah, I'm probably somewhat more technically knowledgeable just based on what I know about you. Maybe I'm wrong.SARAH: No, you're definitely right.AARON: It's sort of just like a probabilities thing. I do think that ‘doom' - that word - is too simplified, often too simple to capture what people really care about. But if you just want to say doom versus no doom or whatever, AI doom versus no AI doom. Maybe there's like a one in 100,000 chance that one of us tips the scales. And that's important. Maybe even, like, one in 10,000. Probably not. Probably not.SARAH: One in 10,000. Wow.AARON: But that's what people do. People vote, even though this is old 80k material I'm regurgitating because they basically want to make the case for why even if you're not. Or in some article they had from a while ago, they made a case for why doing things that are unlikely to counterfactually matter can still be amazingly good. And the classic example, just voting if you're in a tight race, say, in a swing state in the United States, and it could go either way. Yeah. It might be pretty unlikely that you are the single swing vote, but it could be one in 100,000. And that's not crazy.SARAH: It doesn't take very much effort to vote, though.AARON: Yeah, sure. But I think the core justification, also, the stakes are proportionally higher here, so maybe that accounts for some. But, yes, you're absolutely right. Definitely different amounts of effort.SARAH: Putting in any effort to saving the world from AI. I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that I'm sacrificing.AARON: I don't even know if I like. No. Maybe it doesn't feel like a sacrifice. Maybe it isn't. But I do think there's, like, a lot. There's at least something to be. I don't know if this really checks out, but I would, like, bet that it does, which is that more reasonably, at least calibrated. I wanted to say reasonably well informed. But really what it is is, like, some level of being informed and, like, some level of knowing what you don't know or whatever, and more just like, normal. Sorry. I hope normal is not like a bat. I'm saying not like tech Bros, I guess so more like non tech bros. People who are not coded as tech bros. Talking about this on a public platform just seems actually, in fact, pretty good.SARAH: As long as we like, literally just people that aren't men as well. No offense.AARON: Oh, no, totally. Yeah.SARAH: Where are all the women? There's a few.AARON: There's a few that are super. I don't know, like, leaders in some sense, like Ajeya Cotra and Katja Grace. But I think the last EA survey was a third. Or I could be butchering this or whatever. And maybe even within that category, there's some variation. I don't think it's 2%.SARAH: Okay. All right. Yeah.AARON: Like 15 or 20% which is still pretty low.SARAH: No, but that's actually better than I would have thought, I think.AARON: Also, Twitter is, of all the social media platforms, especially mail. I don't really know.SARAH: Um.AARON: I don't like Instagram, I think.SARAH: I wonder, it would be interesting to see whether or not that's much, if it's become more male dominated since Elon Musk took.AARON: It's not a huge difference, but who knows?SARAH: I don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea. We'll just be interesting to know.AARON: Okay. Wait. Also, there's no scheduled time. I'm very happy to keep talking or whatever, but as soon as you want to take a break or hop off, just like. Yeah.SARAH: Oh, yeah. I'm in no rush.AARON: Okay, well, I don't know. We've talked about the two obvious candidates. Do you have a take or something? Want to get out to the world? It's not about AI or obesity or just a story you want to share.SARAH: These are my two pet subjects. I don't know anything else.AARON: I don't believe you. I know you know about house plants.SARAH: I do. A secret, which you can't tell anyone, is that I actually only know about house plants that are hard to kill, and I'm actually not very good at taking care of them.AARON: Well, I'm glad it's house plants in that case, rather than pets. Whatever.SARAH: Yeah. I mean, I have killed some sea monkeys, too, but that was a long time ago.AARON: Yes. So did I, actually.SARAH: Did you? I feel like everyone has. Everyone's got a little sea monkey graveyard in their past.AARON: New cause area.SARAH: Are there more shrimp or more sea monkeys? That's the question.AARON: I don't even know what even. I mean, are they just plankton?SARAH: No, they're not plankton.AARON: I know what sea monkeys are.SARAH: There's definitely a lot of them because they're small and insignificant.AARON: Yeah, but I also think we don't. It depends if you're talking about in the world, which I guess probably like sea monkeys or farmed for food, which is basically like. I doubt these are farmed either for food or for anything.SARAH: Yeah, no, you're probably right.AARON: Or they probably are farmed a tiny bit for this niche little.SARAH: Or they're farmed to sell in aquariums for kids.AARON: Apparently. They are a kind of shrimp, but they were bred specifically to, I don't know, be tiny or something. I'm just skimming that, Wikipedia. Here.SARAH: Sea monkeys are tiny shrimp. That is crazy.AARON: Until we get answers, tell me your life story in whatever way you want. It doesn't have to be like. I mean, hopefully not. Don't straight up lie, but wherever you want to take that.SARAH: I'm not going to lie. I'm just trying to think of ways to make it spicier because it's so average. I don't know what to say about it.AARON: Well, it's probably not that average, right? I mean, it might be average among people you happen to know.SARAH: Do you have any more specific questions?AARON: Okay, no. Yeah, hold on. I have a meta point, which is like, I think the people who are they have a thing on the top of their mind, and if I give any sort of open ended question whatsoever, they'll take it there and immediately just start giving slinging hot takes. But thenOther people, I think, this category is very EA. People who aren't, especially my sister, they're like, “No, I have nothing to talk about. I don't believe that.” But they're not, I guess, as comfortable.SARAH: No, I mean, I have. Something needs to trigger them in me. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I need an in.AARON: Well, okay, here's one. Is there anything you're like, “Maybe I'll cut this. This is kind of, like narcissistic. I don't know. But is there anything you want or curious to ask?” This does sound kind of weird. I don't know. But we can cut it if need be.SARAH: What does the looking glass in your Twitter name mean? Because I've seen a bunch of people have this, and I actually don't know what it means, but I was like, no.AARON: People ask this. I respond to a tweet that's like, “What does that like?” At least, I don't know, once every month or two. Or know basically, like Spencer Greenberg. I don't know if you're familiar with him. He's like a sort of.SARAH: I know the know.AARON: He literally just tweeted, like a couple years ago. Put this in your bio to show that you really care about finding the truth or whatever and are interested in good faith conversations. Are you familiar with the scout mindset?SARAH: Yeah.AARON: Julia Galef. Yeah. That's basically, like the short version.SARAH: Okay.AARON: I'm like, yeah, all right. And there's at least three of us who have both a magnifying glass. Yeah. And a pause thing, which is like, my tightest knit online community I guess.SARAH: I think I've followed all the pause people now. I just searched the emoji on Twitter, and I just followed everyone. Now I can't find. And I also noticed when I was doing this, that some people, if they've suspended their account or they're taking time off, then they put a pause in their thing. So I was, like, looking, and I was like, oh, these are, like, AI people. But then they were just, like, in their bio, they were, like, not tweeting until X date. This is a suspended account. And I was like, I see we have a messaging problem here. Nice. I don't know how common that actually.AARON: Was. I'm glad. That was, like, a very straightforward question. Educated the masses. Max Alexander said Glee. Is that, like, the show? You can also keep asking me questions, but again, this is like.SARAH: Wait, what did he say? Is that it? Did he just say glee? No.AARON: Not even a question mark. Just the word glee.SARAH: Oh, right. He just wants me to go off about Glee.AARON: Okay. Go off about. Wait, what kind of Glee are we? Vaguely. This is like a show or a movie or something.SARAH: Oh, my God. Have you not seen it?AARON: No. I mean, I vaguely remember, I think, watching some TV, but maybe, like, twelve years ago or something. I don't know.SARAH: I think it stopped airing in, like, maybe 2015?AARON: 16. So go off about it. I don't know what I. Yeah, I.SARAH: Don't know what to say about this.AARON: Well, why does Max think you might have a take about Glee?SARAH: I mean, I don't have a take about. Just see the thing. See? No, not even, like, I am just transparently extremely lame. And I really like cheesy. I'm like. I'm like a musical theater kid. Not even ironically. I just like show tunes. And Glee is just a show about a glee club at a high school where they sing show tunes and there's, like, petty drama, and people burst into song in the hallways, and I just think it's just the most glorious thing on Earth. That's it. There are no hot takes.AARON: Okay, well, that's cool. I don't have a lot to say, unfortunately, but.SARAH: No, that's totally fine. I feel like this is not a spicy topic for us to discuss. It's just a good time.AARON: Yeah.SARAH: Wait.AARON: Okay. Yeah. So I do listen to Hamilton on Spotify.SARAH: Okay.AARON: Yeah, that's about it.SARAH: I like Hamilton. I've seen it three times. Oh.AARON: Live or ever. Wow. Cool. Yeah, no, that's okay. Well, what do people get right or wrong about theater kids?SARAH: Oh, I don't know. I think all the stereotypes are true.AARON: I mean, that's generally true, but usually, it's either over moralized, there's like a descriptive thing that's true, but it's over moralized, or it's just exaggerated.SARAH: I mean, to put this in more context, I used to be in choir. I went every Sunday for twelve years. And then every summer we do a little summer school and we go away and put on a production. So we do a musical or something. So I have been. What have I been? I was in Guys and Dolls. I think I was just in the chorus for that. I was the reverend in Anything Goes. But he does unfortunately get kidnapped in like the first five minutes. So he's not a big presence. Oh, I've been Tweedle dumb in Alice in Wonderland. I could go on, but right now as I'm saying this, I'm looking at my notice board and I have two playbills from when I went to Broadway in April where I saw Funny Girl and Hadestown.SARAH: I went to New York.AARON: Oh, cool. Oh yeah. We can talk about when you're moving to the United States. However.SARAH: I'm not going to do that. Okay.AARON: I know. I'm joking. I mean, I don't know.SARAH: I don't think I'm going to do that. I don't know. It just seems like you guys have got a lot going on over there. It seems like things aren't quite right with you guys. Things aren't quite right with us either.AARON: No, I totally get this. I think it would be cool. But also I completely relate to not wanting to. I've lived within 10 miles of one. Not even 10 miles, 8 miles in one location. Obviously gone outside of that. But my entire life.SARAH: You've just always lived in DC.AARON: Yeah, either in DC or. Sorry. But right now in Maryland, it's like right next to DC on the Metro or at Georgia University, which is in the trying to think would I move to the UK. Like I could imagine situations that would make me move to the UK. But it would still be annoying. Kind of.SARAH: Yeah, I mean, I guess it's like they're two very similar places, but there are all these little cultural things which I feel like kind of trip you up.AARON: I don't to. Do you want to say what?SARAH: Like I think people, I just like, I don't know. I don't have that much experience because I've only been to America twice. But people seem a lot more sincere in a way that you don't really get that. Like people are just never really being upfront. And in America, I just got the impression that people just have less of a veneer up, which is probably a good thing. But it's really hard to navigate if you're not used to it or something. I don't know how to describe that.AARON: Yeah, I've definitely heard this at least. And yeah, I think it's for better and for worse.SARAH: Yeah, I think it's generally a good thing.AARON: Yeah.SARAH: But it's like there's this layer of cynicism or irony or something that is removed and then when it's not there, it's just everything feels weak. I can't describe it.AARON: This is definitely, I think, also like an EA rationalist thing. I feel like I'm pretty far on the spectrum. Towards the end of surgical niceties are fine, but I don't know, don't obscure what you really think unless it's a really good reason to or something. But it can definitely come across as being rude.SARAH: Yeah. No, but I think it's actually a good rule of thumb to obscure what you. It's good to try not to obscure what you think most of the time, probably.Ably, I don't know, but I would love to go over temporarily for like six months or something and just hang out for a bit. I think that'd be fun. I don't know if I would go back to New York again. Maybe. I like the bagels there.AARON: I should have a place. Oh yeah. Remember, I think we talked at some point. We can cut this out if you like. Don't if either of us doesn't want it in. But we discussed, oh yeah, I should be having a place. You can. I emailed the landlord like an hour before this. Hopefully, probably more than 50%. That is still an offer. Yeah, probably not for all six months, but I don't know.SARAH: I would not come and sleep on your sofa for six months. That would be definitely impolite and very weird.AARON: Yeah. I mean, my roommates would probably grumble.SARAH: Yeah. They would be like.AARON: Although I don't know. Who knows? I wouldn't be shocked if people were actually like, whatever somebody asked for as a question. This is what he said. I might also be interested in hearing how different backgrounds. Wait, sorry. This is not good grammar. Let me try to parse this. Not having a super hardcore EA AI rationalist background shape how you think or how you view AI as rationality?SARAH: Oh, that's a good question. I think it's more happening the other way around, the more I hang around in these circles. You guys are impacting how I think.AARON: It's definitely true for me as well.SARAH: Seeping into my brain and my language as well. I've started talking differently. I don't know. That's a good question, though. Yeah. One thing that I will say is that there are certain things that I find irritating about the EA way of style of doing things. I think one specific, I don't know, the kind of like hand ring about everything. And I know that this is kind of the point, right? But it's kind of like, you know, when someone's like, I want to take a stance on something, but then whenever they want to take a stance on something, they feel the need to write like a 10,000 word blog post where they're thinking about the second and order and third and fifth order effects of this thing. And maybe this thing that seems good is actually bad for this really convoluted reason. That's just so annoying.AARON: Yeah.SARAH: Also understand that maybe that is a good thing to do sometimes, but it just seems like, I don't know how anyone ever gets anywhere. It seems like everyone must be paralyzed by indecision all the time because they just can't commit to ever actually just saying anything.AARON: I think this kind of thing is really good if you're trying to give away a billion dollars. Oh yes, I do want the billion dollar grantor to be thinking through second and third order effects of how they give away their billion dollars. But also, no, I am super. The words on the tip of my tongue, not overwhelmed but intimidated when I go on the EA forum because the posts, none of them are like normal, like five paragraph essays. Some of them are like, I think one of them I looked up for fun because I was going to make a meme about it and still will. Probably was like 30,000 words or something. And even the short form posts, which really gets me kind of not even annoyed. I don't know, maybe kind of annoyed is that the short form posts, which is sort of the EA forum version of Twitter, are way too high quality, way too intimidating. And so maybe I should just suck it up and post stuff anyway more often. It just feels weird. I totally agree.SARAH: I was also talking to someone recently about how I lurked on the EA forum and less wrong for months and months and I couldn't figure out the upvoting system and I was like, am I being stupid or why are there four buttons? And I was like, well, eventually I had to ask someone because I couldn't figure it out. And then he explained it to me and I was like, that is just so unnecessary. Like, just do it.AARON: No, I do know what you mean.SARAH: I just tI think it's annoying. It pisses me off. I just feel like sometimes you don't need to add more things. Sometimes less is good. Yeah, that's my hot take. Nice things.AARON: Yeah, that's interesting.SARAH: But actually, a thing that I like that EA's do is the constant hedging and caveatting. I do find it kind of adorable. I love that because it's like you're having to constantly acknowledge that you probably didn't quite articulate what you really meant and that you're not quite making contact with reality when you're talking. So you have to clarify that you probably were imprecise when you said this thing. It's unnecessary, but it's kind of amazing.AARON: No, it's definitely. I am super guilty of this because I'll give an example in a second. I think I've been basically trained to try pretty hard, even in normal conversation with anybody, to just never say anything that's literally wrong. Or at least if I do caveat it.AARON: I was driving home, me and my parents and I, unless visited, our grandparents were driving back, and we were driving back past a cruise ship that was in a harbor. And my mom, who was driving at the time, said, “Oh, Aaron, can you see if there's anyone on there?” And I immediately responded like, “Well, there's probably at least one person.” Obviously, that's not what she meant. But that was my technical best guess. It's like, yes, there probably are people on there, even though I couldn't see anybody on the decks or in the rooms. Yeah, there's probably a maintenance guy. Felt kind of bad.SARAH: You can't technically exclude that there are, in fact, no people.AARON: Then I corrected myself. But I guess I've been trained into giving that as my first reaction.SARAH: Yeah, I love that. I think it's a waste of words, but I find it delightful.AARON: It does go too far. People should be more confident. I wish that, at least sometimes, people would say, “Epistemic status: Want to bet?” or “I am definitely right about this.” Too rarely do we hear, "I'm actually pretty confident here.SARAH: Another thing is, people are too liberal with using probabilities. The meaning of saying there is an X percent chance of something happening is getting watered down by people constantly saying things like, “I would put 30% on this claim.” Obviously, there's no rigorous method that's gone into determining why it's 30 and not 35. That's a problem and people shouldn't do that. But I kind of love it.AARON: I can defend that. People are saying upfront, “This is my best guess. But there's no rigorous methodology.” People should take their word for that. In some parts of society, it's seen as implying that a numeric probability came from a rigorous model. But if you say, “This is my best guess, but it's not formed from anything,” people should take their word for that and not refuse to accept them at face value.SARAH: But why do you have to put a number on it?AARON: It depends on what you're talking about. Sometimes probabilities are relevant and if you don't use numbers, it's easy to misinterpret. People would say, “It seems quite likely,” but what does that mean? One person might think “quite reasonably likely” means 70%, the other person thinks it means 30%. Even though it's weird to use a single number, it's less confusing.SARAH: To be fair, I get that. I've disagreed with people about what the word “unlikely” means. Someone's pulled out a scale that the government uses, or intelligence services use to determine what “unlikely” means. But everyone interprets those words differently. I see what you're saying. But then again, I think people in AI safety talking about P Doom was making people take us less seriously, especially because people's probabilities are so vibey.AARON: Some people are, but I take Paul Cristiano's word seriously.SARAH: He's a 50/50 kind of guy.AARON: Yeah, I take that pretty seriously.Obviously, it's not as simple as him having a perfect understanding of the world, even after another 10,000 hours of investigation. But it's definitely not just vibes, either.SARAH: No, I came off wrong there. I don't mean that everyone's understanding is just vibes.AARON: Yeah.SARAH: If you were looking at it from the outside, it would be really difficult to distinguish between the ones that are vibes and the ones that are rigorous, unless you carefully parsed all of it and evaluated everyone's background, or looked at the model yourself. If you're one step removed, it looks like people just spitting out random, arbitrary numbers everywhere.AARON: Yeah. There's also the question of whether P doom is too weird or silly, or if it could be easily dismissed as such.SARAH: Exactly, the moment anyone unfamiliar with this discussion sees it, they're almost definitely going to dismiss it. They won't see it as something they need to engage with.AARON: That's a very fair point. Aside from the social aspect, it's also a large oversimplification. There's a spectrum of outcomes that we lump into doom and not doom. While this binary approach can be useful at times, it's probably overdone.SARAH: Yeah, because when some people say doom, they mean everyone dies, while others mean everyone dies plus everything is terrible. And no one specifies what they mean. It is silly. But, I also find it kind of funny and I kind of love it.AARON: I'm glad there's something like that. So it's not perfect. The more straightforward thing would be to say P existential risk from AI comes to pass. That's the long version, whatever.SARAH: If I was in charge, I would probably make people stop using PDOOm. I think it's better to say it the long way around. But obviously I'm not in charge. And I think it's funny and kind of cute, so I'll keep using it.AARON: Maybe I'm willing to go along and try to start a new norm. Not spend my whole life on it, but say, I think this is bad for X, Y, and Z reasons. I'll use this other phrase instead and clarify when people ask.SARAH: You're going to need Twitter premium because you're going to need a lot more characters.AARON: I think there's a shorthand which is like PX risk or P AiX risk.SARAH: Maybe it's just the word doom that's a bit stupid.AARON: Yeah, that's a term out of the Bay Area rationalists.SARAH: But then I also think it kind of makes the whole thing seem less serious. People should be indignant to hear that this meme is being used to trade probabilities about the likelihood that they're going to die and their families are going to die. This has been an in-joke in this weird niche circle for years and they didn't know about it. I'm not saying that in a way to morally condemn people, but if you explain this to people…People just go to dinner parties in Silicon Valley and talk about this weird meme thing, and what they really mean is the ODs know everyone's going to prematurely die. People should be outraged by that, I think.AARON: I disagree that it's a joke. It is a funny phrase, but the actual thing is people really do stand by their belief.SARAH: No, I totally agree with that part. I'm not saying that people are not being serious when they give their numbers, but I feel like there's something. I don't know how to put this in words. There's something outrageous about the fact that for outsiders, this conversation has been happening for years and people have been using this tongue-in-cheek phrase to describe it, and 99.9% of people don't know that's happening. I'm not articulating this very well.AARON: I see what you're saying. I don't actually think it's like. I don't know a lot of jargon.SARAH: But when I first found out about this, I was outraged.AARON: I honestly just don't share that intuition. But that's really good.SARAH: No, I don't know how to describe this.AARON: I think I was just a little bit indignant, perhaps.SARAH: Yeah, I was indignant about it. I was like, you guys have been at social events making small talk by discussing the probability of human extinction all this time, and I didn't even know. I was like, oh, that's really messed up, guys.AARON: I feel like I'm standing by the rational tier because, it was always on. No one was stopping you from going on less wrong or whatever. It wasn't behind closed.SARAH: Yeah, but no one ever told me about it.AARON: Yeah, that's like a failure of outreach, I suppose.SARAH: Yeah. I think maybe I'm talking more about. Maybe the people that I'm mad at is the people who are actually working on capabilities and using this kind of jargon. Maybe I'm mad at those people. They're fine.AARON: Do we have more questions? I think we might have more questions. We have one more. Okay, sorry, but keep going.SARAH: No, I'm going to stop making that point now because I don't really know what I'm trying to say and I don't want to be controversial.AARON: Controversy is good for views. Not necessarily for you. No, thank you for that. Yes, that was a good point. I think it was. Maybe it was wrong. I think it seems right.SARAH: It was probably wrong.Shrimp Welfare: A Serious DiscussionAARON: I don't know what she thinks about shrimp welfare. Oh, yeah. I think it's a general question, but let's start with that. What do you think about shrimp? Well, today.SARAH: Okay. Is this an actual cause area or is this a joke about how if you extrapolate utilitarianism to its natural conclusion, you would really care about shrimp?AARON: No, there's a charity called the Shrimp Welfare Initiative or project. I think it's Shrimp Welfare Initiative. I can actually have a rant here about how it's a meme that people find amusing. It is a serious thing, but I think people like the meme more than they're willing to transfer their donations in light of it. This is kind of wrong and at least distasteful.No, but there's an actual, if you Google, Shrimp Welfare Project. Yeah, it's definitely a thing, but it's only a couple of years old. And it's also kind of a meme because it does work in both ways. It sort of shows how we're weird, but in the sense that we are willing to care about things that are very different from us. Not like we're threatening other people. That's not a good description.SARAH: Is the extreme version of this position that we should put more resources into improving the lives of shrimp than into improving the lives of people just because there are so many more shrimp? Are there people that actually believe that?AARON: Well, I believe some version of that, but it really depends on who the ‘we' is there.SARAH: Should humanity be putting more resources?AARON: No one believes that as far as I know.SARAH: Okay. Right. So what is the most extreme manifestation of the shrimp welfare position?AARON: Well, I feel like my position is kind of extreme, and I'm happy to discuss it. It's easier than speculating about what the more extreme ones are. I don't think any of them are that extreme, I guess, from my perspective, because I think I'm right.SARAH: Okay, so what do you believe?AARON: I think that most people who have already decided to donate, say $20, if they are considering where to donate it and they are better morally, it would be better if they gave it to the shrimp welfare project than if they gave it to any of the commonly cited EA organizations.SARAH: Malaria nets or whatever.AARON: Yes. I think $20 of malaria nets versus $20 of shrimp. I can easily imagine a world where it would go the other way. But given the actual situation, the $20 of shrimp is much better.SARAH: Okay. Is it just purely because there's just more shrimp? How do we know how much shrimp suffering there is in the world?AARON: No, this is an excellent question. The numbers are a key factor, but no, it's not as simple. I definitely don't think one shrimp is worth one human.SARAH: I'm assuming that it's based on the fact that there are so many more shrimp than there are people that I don't know how many shrimp there are.AARON: Yeah, that's important, but at some level, it's just the margin. What I think is that when you're donating money, you should give to wherever it does the most good, whatever that means, whatever you think that means. But let's just leave it at that. The most good is morally best at the margin, which means you're not donating where you think the world should or how you think the world should expend its trillion dollar wealth. All you're doing is adding $20 at this current level, given the actual world. And so part of it is what you just said, and also including some new research from Rethink Priorities.Measuring suffering in reasonable ranges is extremely hard to do. But I believe it's difficult to do a better job than raising priorities on that, given what I've seen. I can provide some links. There are a few things to consider here: numbers, times, and the enormity of suffering. I think there are a couple of key elements, including tractability.Are you familiar with the three-pronged concept people sometimes discuss, which encompasses tractability, and neglectedness?SARAH: Okay.AARON: Importance is essentially what we just mentioned. Huge numbers and plausible amounts of suffering. When you try to do the comparison, it seems like they're a significant concern. Tractability is another factor. I think the best estimates suggest that a one-dollar donation could save around 10,000 shrimp from a very painful death.SARAH: In that sense…AARON: You could imagine that even if there were a hundred times more shrimp than there actually are, we have direct control over how they live and die because we're farming them. The industry is not dominated by wealthy players in the United States. Many individual farmers in developing nations, if educated and provided with a more humane way of killing the shrimp, would use it. There's a lot of potential for improvement here. This is partly due to the last prong, neglectedness, which is really my focus.SARAH: You're saying no one cares about the shrimp.AARON: I'm frustrated that it's not taken seriously enough. One of the reasons why the marginal cost-effectiveness is so high is because large amounts of money are donated to well-approved organizations. But individual donors often overlook this. They ignore their marginal impact. If you want to see even a 1% shift towards shrimp welfare, the thing to do is to donate to shrimp welfare. Not donate $19 to human welfare and one dollar to shrimp welfare, which is perhaps what they think the overall portfolio should be.SARAH: Interesting. I don't have a good reason why you're wrong. It seems like you're probably right.AARON: Let me put the website in the chat. This isn't a fair comparison since it's something I know more about.SARAH: Okay.AARON: On the topic of obesity, neither of us were more informed than the other. But I could have just made stuff up or said something logically fallacious.SARAH: You could have told me that there were like 50 times the number of shrimp in the world than there really are. And I would have been like, sure, seems right.AARON: Yeah. And I don't know, if I…If I were in your position, I would say, “Oh, yeah, that sounds right.” But maybe there are other people who have looked into this way more than me that disagree, and I can get into why I think it's less true than you'd expect in some sense.SARAH: I just wonder if there's like… This is like a deeply non-EA thing to say. So I don't know, maybe I shouldn't say it, but are there not any moral reasons? Is there not any good moral philosophy behind just caring more about your own species than other species? If you're sorry, but that's probably not right, is it? There's probably no way to actually morally justify that, but it seems like it feels intuitively wrong. If you've got $20 to be donating 19 of them to shrimp and one to children with malaria, that feels like there should be something wrong with that, but I can't tell you what it is.AARON: Yeah, no, there is something wrong, which is that you should donate all 20 because they're acting on the margin, for one thing. I do think that doesn't check out morally, but I think basically me and everybody I know in terms of real life or whatever, I do just care way more about humans. I don't know, for at least the people that it's hard to formalize or specify what you mean by caring about or something. But, yeah, I think you can definitely basically just be a normal human who basically cares a lot about other humans. And still that's not like, negated by changing your $20 donation or whatever. Especially because there's nothing else that I do for shrimp. I think you should be like a kind person or something. I'm like an honest person, I think. Yeah, people should be nice to other humans. I mean, you should be nice in the sense of not beating them. But if you see a pigeon on the street, you don't need to say hi or whatever, give it a pet, because. I don't know. But yeah, you should be basically like, nice.SARAH: You don't stop to say hi to every pigeon that you see on the way to anywhere.AARON: I do, but I know most normal people don't.SARAH: This is why I'm so late to everything, because I have to do it. I have to stop for every single one. No exceptions.AARON: Yeah. Or how I think about it is sort of like a little bit of compartmentalization, which I think is like… Which is just sort of like a way to function normally and also sort of do what you think really checks out at the end of the day, just like, okay, 99% of the time I'm going to just be like a normal person who doesn't care about shrimp. Maybe I'll refrain from eating them. But actually, even that is like, I could totally see a person just still eating them and then doing this. But then during the 1% of the time where you're deciding how to give money away and none of those, the beneficiaries are going to be totally out of sight either way. This is like a neutral point, I guess, but it's still worth saying, yeah, then you can be like a hardcore effective altruist or whatever and then give your money to the shrimp people.SARAH: Do you have this set up as like a recurring donation?AARON: Oh, no. Everybody should call me out as a hypocrite because I haven't donated much money, but I'm trying to figure out actually, given that I haven't had a stable income ever. And maybe, hopefully I will soon, actually. But even then, it's still a part-time thing. I haven't been able to do sort of standard 10% or more thing, and I'm trying to figure out what the best thing to do or how to balance, I guess, not luxury, not like consumption on things that I… Well, to some extent, yeah. Maybe I'm just selfish by sometimes getting an Uber. That's totally true. I think I'm just a hypocrite in that respect. But mostly I think the trade-off is between saving, investing, and giving. Beast of the money that I have saved up and past things. So this is all sort of a defense of why I don't have a recurring donation going on.SARAH: I'm not asking you to defend yourself because I do not do that either.AARON: I think if I was making enough money that I could give away $10,000 a year and plan on doing that indefinitely, I would be unlikely to set up a recurring donation. What I would really want to do is once or twice a year, really try to prioritize deciding on how to give it away rather than making it the default. This has a real cost for charities. If you set up a recurring donation, they have more certainty in some sense of their future cash flow. But that's only good to do if you're really confident that you're going to want to keep giving there in the future. I could learn new information that says something else is better. So I don't think I would do that.SARAH: Now I'm just thinking about how many shrimp did you say it was per dollar?AARON: Don't quote me. I didn't say an actual thing.SARAH: It was like some big number. Right. Because I just feel like that's such a brainworm. Imagine if you let that actually get in your head and then every time you spend some unnecessary amount of money on something you don't really need, you think about how many shrimp you just killed by getting an Uber or buying lunch out. That is so stressful. I think I'm going to try not to think about that.AARON: I don't mean to belittle this. This is like a core, I think you're new to EA type of thinking. It's super natural and also troubling when you first come upon it. Do you want me to talk about how I, or other people deal with that or take action?SARAH: Yeah, tell me how to get the shrimp off my conscience.AARON: Well, for one thing, you don't want to totally do that. But I think the main thing is that the salience of things like this just decreases over time. I would be very surprised if, even if you're still very engaged in the EA adjacent communities or EA itself in five years, that it would be as emotionally potent. Brains make things less important over time. But I think the thing to do is basically to compartmentalize in a sort of weird sense. Decide how much you're willing to donate. And it might be hard to do that, but that is sort of a process. Then you have that chunk of money and you try to give it away the best you can under whatever you think the best ethics are. But then on the daily, you have this other set pot of money. You just are a normal person. You spend it as you wish. You don't think about it unless you try not to. And maybe if you notice that you might even have leftover money, then you can donate the rest of it. But I really do think picking how much to give should sort of be its own project. And then you have a pile of money you can be a hardcore EA about.SARAH: So you pick a cut off point and then you don't agonize over anything over and above that.AARON: Yeah. And then people, I mean, the hard part is that if somebody says their cut off point is like 1% of their income and they're making like $200,000, I don't know. Maybe their cut off point should be higher. So there is a debate. It depends on that person's specific situation. Maybe if they have a kid or some super expensive disease, it's a different story. If you're just a random guy making $200,000, I think you should give more.SARAH: Maybe you should be giving away enough to feel the pinch. Well, not even that. I don't think I'm going to do that. This is something that I do actually want to do at some point, but I need to think about it more and maybe get a better job.AARON: Another thing is, if you're wanting to earn to give as a path to impact, you could think and strive pretty hard. Maybe talk to people and choose your education or professional development opportunities carefully to see if you can get a better paying job. That's just much more important than changing how much you give from 10% to 11% or something. You should have this macro level optimization. How can I have more money to spend? Let me spend, like, I don't know, depends what life stage you are, but if you had just graduated college or maybe say you're a junior in college or something. It could make sense to spend a good amount of time figuring out what that path might look like.AARON: I'm a huge hypocrite because I definitely haven't done all this nearly as much as I should, but I still endorse it.SARAH: Yeah, I think it's fine to say what you endorse doing in an ideal world, even if you're not doing that, that's fine.AARON: For anybody listening, I tweeted a while ago, asking if anyone has resources on how to think about giving away wealth. I'm not very wealthy but have some amount of savings. It's more than I really need. At the same time, maybe I should be investing it because EA orgs don't feel like, or they think they can't invest it because there's potentially a lot of blowback if they make poor investments, even though it would be higher expected value.There's also the question of, okay, having some amount of savings allows me to take higher, potentially somewhat higher risk, but higher value opportunities because I have a cushion. But I'm very confused about how to give away what I should do here. People should DM me on Twitter or anywhere they have ideas.SARAH: I think you should calculate how much you need to cover your very basic needs. Maybe you should work out, say, if you were working 40 hours a week in a minimum wage job, like how much would you make then? And then you should keep that for yourself. And then the rest should definitely all go to the shrimp. Every single penny. All of it.AARON: This is pretty plausible. Just to make it more complicated, there's also the thing that I feel like my estimates or my best guesses of the best charities to give to over time has changed. And so there's like two competing forces. One is that I might get wiser and more knowledgeable as time goes on. The other one is that in general, giving now is better than giving later. All else equal, because I think for a couple of reasons, the main one just being that the charities don't know that you're going to give later.AARON: So it's like they can plan for the future much better if they get money now. And also there's just higher leverage opportunities or higher value per dollar opportunities now in general than there will be later for a couple of reasons I don't really need to. This is what makes it really complicated. So I've donated in the past to places that I don't think, or I don't think even at the time were the best to. So then there's a question of like, okay, how long do I save this money? Do I sit on it for months until I'm pretty confident, like a year.AARON: I do think that probably over the course of zero to five years or something, becoming more confident or changing your mind is like the stronger effect than how much good you give to the, or how much better it is for the charities to give now instead of later. But also that's weird because you're never committing at all.Sometimes you might decide to give it away, and maybe you won't. Maybe at that time you're like, “Oh, that's what I want. A car, I have a house, whatever.” It's less salient or something. Maybe something bad happened with EA and you no longer identify that way. Yeah, there's a lot of really thorny considerations. Sorry, I'm talking way too much.SARAH: Long, are you factoring AI timelines into this?AARON: That makes it even more sketchy. But that could also go both ways. On one hand, you have the fact that if you don't give away your money now and you die with it, it's never going to do any good. The other thing is that it might be that especially high leverage opportunities come in the future or something potentially you need, I don't know, whatever I can imagine I could make something up about. OpenPhil needs as much money as it can get to do X, Y and Z. It's really important right now, but I won't know that until a few years down the line. So just like everything else, it doesn't neatly wash out.SARAH: What do you think the AGI is going to do to the shrimp? I reckon it's probably pretty neat, like one shrimp per paperclip. Maybe you could get more. I wonder what the sort of shrimp to paperclip conversion rate is.AARON: Has anyone looked into that morally? I think like one to zero. I don't think in terms of money. You could definitely price that. I have no idea.SARAH: I don't know. Maybe I'm not taking this as seriously as I should be because I'm.AARON: No, I mean, humor is good. When people are giving away money or deciding what to do, they should be serious. But joking and humor is good. Sorry, go ahead.SARAH: No, you go ahead.AARON: I had a half-baked idea. At EA Global, they should have a comedy show where people roast everybody, but it's a fundraiser. You have to pay to get 100 people to attend. They have a bidding contest to get into the comedy show. That was my original idea. Or they could just have a normal comedy show. I think that'd be cool.SARAH: Actually, I think that's a good idea because you guys are funny. There is a lot of wit on this side of Twitter. I'm impressed.AARON: I agree.SARAH: So I think that's a very good idea.AARON: Okay. Dear Events team: hire Aaron Bergman, professional comedian.SARAH: You can just give them your Twitter as a source for how funny you are, and that clearly qualifies you to set this up. I love it.AARON: This is not important or related to anything, but I used to be a good juggler for entertainment purposes. I have this video. Maybe I should make sure the world can see it. It's like a talent show. So maybe I can do that instead.SARAH: Juggling. You definitely should make sure the world has access to this footage.AARON: It had more views than I expected. It wasn't five views. It was 90 or something, which is still nothing.SARAH: I can tell you a secret right now if you want. That relates to Max asking in the chat about glee.AARON: Yes.SARAH: This bit will also have to edit out, but me having a public meltdown over AI was the second time that I've ever blown up on the Internet. The first time being. I can't believe I'm telling you this. I think I'm delirious right now. Were you ever in any fandoms, as a teenager?AARON: No.SARAH: Okay. Were you ever on Tumblr?AARON: No. I sort of know what the cultural vibes were. I sort of know what you're referring to. There are people who like Harry Potter stuff and bands, like Kpop stuff like that.SARAH: So people would make these fan videos where they'd take clips from TV shows and then they edit them together to music. Sometimes people would edit the clips to make it look like something had happened in the plot of the show that hadn't actually happened. For example, say, what if X character had died? And then you edit the clips together to try and make it look like they've died. And you put a sad song, how to save a life by the fray or something, over the top. And then you put it on YouTube.AARON: Sorry, tell me what…"Hat I should search or just send the link here. I'm sending my link.SARAH: Oh, no, this doesn't exist anymore. It does not exist anymore. Right? So, say if you're, like, eleven or twelve years old and you do this, and you don't even have a mechanism to download videos because you don't know how to do technology. Instead, you take your little iPod touch and you just play a YouTube video on your screen, and you literally just film the screen with your iPod touch, and that's how you're getting the clips. It's kind of shaky because you're holding the camera anyway.SARAH: Then you edit together on the iMovie app of your iPod touch, and then you put it on the Internet, and then you just forget about it. You forget about it. Two years later, you're like, oh, I wonder what happened to that YouTube account? And you log in and this little video that you've made with edited clips that you've filmed off the screen of your laptop to ‘How To Save Life' by The Fray with clips from Glee in it, has nearly half a million views.AARON: Nice. Love it.SARAH: Embarrassing because this is like, two years later. And then all the comments were like, oh, my God, this was so moving. This made me cry. And then obviously, some of them were hating and being like, do you not even know how to download video clips? Like, what? And then you're so embarrassed.AARON: I could totally seem it. Creative, but only a reasonable solution. Yeah.SARAH: So that's my story of how I went viral when I was like, twelve.AARON: It must have been kind of overwhelming.SARAH: Yeah, it was a bit. And you can tell that my time, it's like 20 to eleven at night, and now I'm starting to really go off on one and talk about weird things.AARON: Like an hour. So, yeah, we can wrap up. And I always say this, but it's actually true. Which is that low standard, like, low stakes or low threshold. Low bar for doing that in recording some of the time.SARAH: Yeah, probably. We'll have to get rid of the part about how I went viral on YouTube when I was twelve. I'll sleep on that.AARON: Don't worry. I'll send the transcription at some point soon.SARAH: Yeah, cool.AARON: Okay, lovely. Thank you for staying up late into the night for this.SARAH: It's not that late into the night. I'm just like, lame and go to bed early.AARON: Okay, cool. Yeah, I know. Yeah, for sure. All right, bye. Get full access to Aaron's Blog at www.aaronbergman.net/subscribe

Last time we talked about the difference between cold and warm leads. So how do you take this information and use it to grow your property management business? Join property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull as they reveal the top strategies and DoorGrow secrets for growing a property management business. You'll Learn [01:09] Strategy 1: The Neighbor Strategy [07:33] The 3 kinds of neighbors to target [11:59] Strategy 2: The Review Strategy [16:26] Strategy 3: Real Estate Agent Referrals [20:26] Strategy 4: Presenting to Groups [25:32] Strategy 5: Product Research Interviews Tweetables “Not all leads are equal.” “There is just so much abundance, and if you put yourself in a scarcity mindset, you're going to experience that for sure.” “There is no shortage of business if you're a property manager.” “This like scarcity mindset, we have to kill it. We have to get out of it.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Especially in the U S like there is no shortage of business if you're a property manager.  [00:00:08] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. [00:00:23] DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.  [00:00:42] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow along with Sarah Hull, co founder and COO of DoorGrow now let's get into the show. [00:01:09] All right. So the topic we decided to talk about today is how to get the best leads for property management. We talked about previously the difference between cold and warm leads, right? So not all leads are equal. And if you missed that episode, go check that out. I highly recommend it. It will save you a ton of money and time, wasting your energy, cash effort, et cetera. So today we're going to talk about some of the best strategies. We're not going to go into a lot of detail. If you want to go deeper with us, you can reach out and we can coach you through this stuff and help you grow your business without spending a bunch of money on marketing. [00:01:51] All right. So why don't we kick this off and we can tell them a little bit about the neighbor strategy, which we have a really cool training on that we will give to the audience for free. We'll tell you how you can get it. Let's do it. So, do you want to intro that one?  [00:02:07] Sarah: No, you do it, because this is your whole thing. [00:02:10] You set up the whole page, so you do it. I don't want to miss anything.  [00:02:14] Jason: So, the Neighbor Strategy is a really simple concept. And the concept is, you probably have gotten a phone call before, at your property management office, And somebody said, "Hey, do you manage in X area, in some sort of area?" [00:02:30] And the answer was no. And you just said "no." Or your team just said "no." And they hung up and said, "nope! We don't. Sorry!" And that is a perfectly good lead that somebody, one of your neighbors would love to have. And you just threw it in the garbage. So the analogy I use, if you go to neighborstrategy.Com and get this free training, you'll learn how to make this strategy work, but it's really simple. Our clients never get told no. They reach out to neighboring property management companies to just explain this. "Hey, sometimes I get calls for your area and I usually just throw that gold in the garbage. Would you like to have it?" And they always say yes. And in that I teach how to convert, even if that's a cold lead that came in for them, I teach you how to convert that or have your neighbors convert that.  [00:03:23] If you share the neighborstrategy.Com landing page with them so they can learn the training how to convert that from a cold lead 10 percent close rate into a 90 percent close rate warm lead. So you're able to refine this gold for them, give it to them, and they can then get this gold and they're getting business. And so we've got clients that are doing that with each other that are in neighboring markets. You can even do this with property management companies that are in your market that focus on a different niche than you. [00:03:52] So if you do single family residential largely or small multi, there might be commercial companies and they get asked, "Hey, do you, can you also manage my rental home" and "no," and they throw it in the trash. You would probably like to have that, right? And so the neighbor strategy is a simple way and you can stack and add neighbors all around your market neighboring property management companies. [00:04:15] Capturing some of that rain that they can't capture that could go to you and companies that are in your market that are a different niche than you, and I give you scripts. I give you the language to use and I have drawings and I explain how this all works and how to convert these from a cold lead into a warm lead and how to get your neighboring partners to do this as well. It's really a simple strategy that is super effective.  [00:04:39] So I highly recommend you check out neighborstrategy.Com. Go get this free training. We want to give this out because we know that if you have neighbors that are doing this strategy, then everybody wins. Everybody benefits. This benefits the entire industry, and it's really simple. Like leads should not be getting lost. And we don't want them just going and searching on Google, becoming cold, desensitized, looking at cheap pricing and becoming terrible potential clients. That hurts the entire industry. So this is a way to benefit the entire industry, which is part of our mission here at DoorGrow. [00:05:16] Sarah: I think with the neighbor strategy, let's just address the elephant in the room because everyone goes, "I don't want people to know what I know. Like I want to be different. And like, I want to keep my knowledge a secret, right?" that's why I hear this all the time where they're like, I don't want anybody else to know. And it's that kind of mindset that really holds us back because there is just so much abundance, and if you put yourself in a scarcity mindset, really, that's like, you're going to experience that for sure. [00:05:43] Like for sure. Especially in the U S like there is no shortage of business if you're a property manager. Most people do not know what property managers are. The ones that know what property managers are, they might not have a great perception of what property managers do why because they may have been burned in the past. They may have had like a really bad experience. [00:06:06] They may just go, "oh, well, yeah but you just do like rent collection like I could do that myself," and any of us property managers that have had a conversation like that, it's hard to not laugh when someone's like "I could do it myself." You're like, "okay, do it yourself. Call me when you're ready. Do it yourself, and if you blow it up so bad, I probably won't even want to help you at that point because it's just going to be a huge mess for me." But there's so much that goes into it, right? So we have to also kind of keep in mind that if we really think about it, like you can kind of break this down by almost any sector, right? [00:06:42] So if you see like a fast food chain, like Burger King, Wendy's, McDonald's, very, very rarely are they the only one in a huge area. They do better when there's more of them, like, packed closer. So, it's funny because you notice this when we drive around. Every time there's like a CVS, we'll see a CVS, and very close by, somewhere there's a Walgreens. Why would that be, right? So, why do these multi million dollar companies choose to put a CVS here and right across the street, a Walgreens? If they were worried about competition, do you think that they would do that? Hell no. They'd be like, "well, if CVS is there, I'm going way over here." But they know that by putting two similar options close together, it's actually going to draw in more business. [00:07:33] Property management works very similarly. And the other thing to kind of keep in mind with this is I think there are three like neighbors kind of to target. One is neighbors that are outside of your area. So if you cover. Like Austin, but I don't go to Round Rock. Well, then find somebody in Round Rock, right? Like find people who border the area that you cover. That's the first one. The second one is find people that cover the same area that you cover, but in a different sector, like Jason said. So maybe I only do residential. I might want to partner with somebody who does commercial. Because odds are, at one point in time, I'm going to find somebody who wants commercial, and I don't do it, and I'd love to have somebody to pass that on to, and vice versa. [00:08:20] And the third one, and this is the one where everybody goes, "I'm not doing that," just test it and try it. And I used to do this myself, so I'm not steering you in a direction that I would never have done. Find someone in your area does the same exact thing that you do now. Everybody here goes, "Whoa, now that's scary. I'm not giving business away to my competitors." Well, here's the thing is not all business is business that you want to take. And that's something that you really have to get solid in is what business, what properties, what clients, what tenants do I want to take? And what do I want to have in my portfolio? Because if you work with us at DoorGrow. We train everyone on the cycle of suck. And it's super easy to get like trapped in that. And it's because you just take on everything. You do not want to take on everything. And it doesn't mean that they're a bad client Maybe they're just not a fit for what you do. [00:09:16] Maybe you could tell like the relationship isn't probably going to be super great. So when I was running my business, I was happy to give those off to somebody else. Why? Because I would rather them work with another property manager, even if it is my competitor, I would rather give that to a property manager so that they at least have some kind of chance with their rental property versus, "well, I'm just going to do it myself." [00:09:39] And we all know, guys, we all know how that works. So those are the three that you would want to target with the neighbor strategy.  [00:09:45] Jason: Yeah, didn't you get some leads coming from a neighbor?  [00:09:49] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I got mostly from like neighbors that were outside of my area. My competitors were the type that would just take on anything. [00:10:00] And it was fun to me because I was like, "well, if they're not a fit for me..." because I was a lot more picky. So if they're not a fit for me, if then I'm not taking them anyway. It's not like, "Oh, well, I'm going to give Jason this lead that I want." No, you're not going to give away leads that you want, right? [00:10:17] You're just, if you don't want to take the business, if it's not a fit, if you like, it's just not going to work out, then does it hurt to give it away? No. They're going to have a better experience with some property manager than trying to do it on their own. And we want investors to have a good experience with their rental properties, even if it's not with you, because they're going to then buy more investment properties, right? [00:10:43] And this is going to like promote the industry. So this like scarcity mindset, we have to kill it. We have to get out of it.  [00:10:51] Jason: Yeah, I think one month you have five doors from a neighboring property manager one month.  [00:10:56] Sarah: I got like 17.  [00:10:57] Jason: Yeah Okay. Yeah, so and that's from one right? And so If people are intentional, especially if you're in you know larger markets if you can hit all the people that are around your market or people that get sometimes get called or Asked about your market then you can get a bunch of business, right? [00:11:18] It can add up all right for sure. [00:11:20] Sarah: Like we even have clients. We have a bunch of clients like in the like la orange county area, but it's so crazy there with the traffic like, you know, like yeah on the map It says it could take you like 15 minutes but because of traffic it might take you an hour and a half or like two hours, right? So we even have like clients in our program that like refer business back and forth just because they know, because of the traffic, they're like, "well, if it's on the North point, I just don't want to take it." So that's another... and that's people in the same area that do the same thing that they do. And it makes your life easier because now your operational costs are going to be lower because you're not trying to drive like two hours to go do an inspection.  [00:11:59] Jason: All right. Let's talk about reviews next. Cool. So one strategy that's helped some of my clients add easily 200 doors in a year, if they get this game dialed in is online reviews. Now, all of you know this game you think, and a lot of you try to play this game and you think you know how to get reviews, but what we focus on at DoorGrow is focusing on reviews as if it's a sales lead, like putting it into your pipeline, following up and getting the majority of every new tenant and every new owner to give you a review. [00:12:34] And there's a way of doing this so that it doesn't sound slimy. And it doesn't sound like a used car salesman in a way that they want to help you back and reciprocate. And we have scripts for this. We have ways that we help clients do this. And we have a tool to facilitate that and make the process even easier, which is GatherKudos, which any of you can sign up for GatherKudos at GatherKudos.com. It can integrate with things like Property Meld, and it just makes a review funnel that makes it easier for you to get valid feedback in your business, whether it's good or bad. And if it's good, it pushes them to choose a review site and gives them directions how to do it. So it just lubricates that process, makes it so much easier for your prospects to leave good reviews. [00:13:21] Because we know that the negative reviewers are highly motivated and the good reviewers need a little bit of motivation, and so we have a training called Reputation Secrets where we teach how this can work super effectively. We've got clients that are crushing their competition in getting more reviews because they're getting almost all of their tenants and owners to get reviews if they really build this growth engine out. They can at least get the majority of each new tenant and owner to give them reviews. [00:13:51] And if you're growing and adding doors, you're getting new tenants, you're getting new owners, and you can then be also getting new reviews. And if you're crushing it at the review game, that's better than having the top spot on Google because reviews function like warm leads.  [00:14:06] Sarah: And then James and Brian, when they came into the program, like when Brian came on, I think he said they had some online reviews, but they were either like a two something or a three something online. So like not super great, right? Why? Because all the people who were angry were like, "I'm going to be a keyboard warrior." And then they focused on the strategy and they got up to over four stars. And I think that helped them break the thousand door barrier. Yeah. They had added like over 400 doors in one year. [00:14:35] And this was part of the strategy that helped them do that.  [00:14:38] Jason: Yeah. And less than a year. So the cool thing about this strategy of building this particular growth engine is that this is one that is very easily done by your team. This doesn't have to be your BDM. It doesn't have to be a salesy person. It doesn't have to be the business owner. This one can easily be done by your team and it can be systematized. It can just be part of your tenant and owner onboarding process if you build this engine correctly. So, and I guess that's all we probably need to say about that one. Yeah, it's a really great strategy. Really simple great strategy  [00:15:13] Sarah: It's free. It's a free strategy. This is not costing you any kind of money. You're not, you know spending money on marketing or advertising or ads or nothing like that. And it's really great I had so many clients contacting me or prospective clients contacting me because they're like, "oh I saw your review."  [00:15:33] Jason: Yeah, this strategy also helps boost your local SEO. If you're familiar with local SEO or ranking, Google looks at review diversity. Which means getting reviews from lots of different channels. So GatherKudos, and our method helps with you getting more reviews, not just on Google, but also Yelp and maybe Angie's List, City Search, Thumbtack, whatever you have or using, right? [00:15:57] And so, review diversity. review quantities, so getting more reviews on each of those channels, and the review ratings, like getting good ratings. This helps filter out the bad ratings as well and helps you capture it locally so you can actually do something to mitigate that and help those people, which is what they usually really want. [00:16:16] And so it makes the whole process easier. So we highly recommend that strategy. Very easy growth engine to build out if you understand how and we train our clients on that. So let's talk about the one that probably is one of the fastest methods to grow a property management business. I mean, one of our clients that added over 400 doors at another client that I had 310 in doors in just a year. This strategy. If you have, especially if you have a full time BDM, and if you don't, we can help you with the hiring piece and training of a BDM so you don't make mistakes there because we get a lot of people coming from BDM coaching companies and BDM placement companies that do not have good experiences. [00:16:58] And then we help them clean that up. And people don't even know that we focus on that. So this would be referrals from real estate agents or from a variety of other sources that we talk about. But this can be very effective, but usually is very ineffective. Most property managers try to focus on this and get very few referrals on a monthly basis. [00:17:23] Sarah: Yeah. And I was lumped in that too. And then back in my insurance days, cause I was doing insurance and I was doing property management when I first started out. And I was like, "Ooh, I'll get referrals from everyone. And it'll be so great." Cause everybody would just send me business. And I was doing everything the wrong way. And I wasn't getting a lot of referrals. And then things started to shift when I realized, "Hey, this is not working the way that I wanted it to work." So I had to make some changes to make it work better. But everyone like, they just always go about it the wrong way because this is like, this is a really common thought is like, "Hey, I'll get referrals. Like this is how a lot of businesses work is on referrals. So I'll just do that." And then what happens is they start to focus on getting referrals. They Don't know exactly how to make it work, but they just think "hey, it's simple like you should just be able to send me business," and then they wait and usually nothing comes in or if something comes in it's like, "thanks, but that's not really what I wanted."  [00:18:24] Jason: Yeah, the secret is you actually have to destroy the idea of getting referrals in the mind of the people you want referrals from and get something better. And so I touched on that on some previous episodes, if you dig around, but this is some of the really magical stuff that we share with clients, how they can get more real estate agents, connecting them to investors and close a lot more deals. And this creates warm leads. They're easy to close. They're early in the sales cycle. [00:18:54] You can charge more money than typical in these situations. And so it's a win, win for all three parties all the way around. This is a, this is the fastest way I know of to grow a property management business. It works really well, but there's a lot of pitfalls in this. There's a lot of mistakes. We've listened to phone calls of some of our, you know, clients, setters or BDMs trying to. [00:19:20] Like get relationships created with real estate agents and doing the outbound partner prospecting stuff that we talk about and there's a lot of failures and We have to coach them through this and it this is a and a growth engine that takes probably 90 days to build effectively to get to work effectively. The first 30 days you're going to build that engine from scratch and the second 30 days, we're going to make some major tweaks and changes. [00:19:48] And then the last 30 days is where you start to hit pay dirt, where we tweak things to get that last 10 percent of dialing things in. That gives you 90 percent of the results. And this is where the magic happens. And most people quit too early, don't do it enough. They just go present to a big real estate office meeting while people stare at their phones and wonder why nobody like gives them leads. And it doesn't work. And they're like, "I've tried referrals. I've tried that," you know, so we hear that all the time. You've not tried it the way that we do it cause it works. And if it's not working for you, you're doing it wrong. That's all I'll say.  [00:20:23] All right. So, let's talk about groups. [00:20:26] Let's talk about groups.  [00:20:28] Sarah: So can we talk about the big mistake of groups? Sure. . So everyone goes, oh, a group, I'll do a BNI.  [00:20:35] Jason: Oh yeah. wah wah. or a Chamber of Commerce. So we hear this all the time, like, "oh, I go to the BNI or I go to Chamber of Commerce" and I mean, that one's really simple. And to throw people a bone, we get asked this all the time, "well, I'm thinking to join a BNI group." would that be effective? The answer is usually no, because the way BNI works is you're going to have one expert in each category, which means there might be one real estate agent there you might be able to get a referral from. You'll have one of, one property manager, which is kind of nice. You don't have competition, right? [00:21:09] But the challenge is most of the people there are not your target audience, and a lot of them are not able to connect you to your target audience, and there are better groups available in which you can either create the group and own it, or you can go find groups that exist and be part of it, in which you can have an entire group of potential referral partners, or an entire group of potential clients. And that's probably the first big step is just like, if you're going to go hunting, go where the game actually is. So, now groups, we recommend you do groups after you get good at one on one. And the challenge is most people go and try and present to a group and they think this is going to be so great, and they have no way of collecting people's information that are interested in the group. They don't know how to optimize that. They don't know the things to say. They don't understand concepts like trial closes and getting people to buy into things. They don't understand how to create leverage and how to get leads. [00:22:10] You should be able to walk away from any group situation with leads and appointments. Yes. With scheduled appointments. And we teach our clients how to do this, how to optimize this, and how to identify and capture the people that are quick, early adopters, the people that take a little bit more nurturing, and the people that are a bit more skeptical. And this is something that you do throughout your presentation if you're doing it effectively, but you really, it doesn't make sense to go do a group presentation if you're not good at selling yet, and you're not good at one on one interactions, and you haven't built up, you know, the ability to close deals one on one, because groups, you're not going to close people in a group situation. [00:22:56] You don't close them. In a group situation, at best, you can get a one on one interaction typically scheduled, and then you can close them. So we need to teach you how first to be really good at one on one. And then you can graduate to doing the group thing, but don't waste a good group opportunity. These are not super common. [00:23:16] If somebody is like, "Hey, I'll let you come present to my group," and you blow it. Yeah. Yeah. You wasted all, like you wasted probably hundreds of doors of business that you could have gotten if it's a decent sized group. One of our clients went to a group, used a presentation that we gave him and he was able to close in his first time. He went to this group, it was a realtor investors association, real estate investor association, a rea group, whatever. And he was able to present to like 200, 300 people, the group had like 500 and he walked away and he had been stuck at like 60 doors for the first three or so years of his business. He couldn't figure out how to get ahead. He got 20 doors that month from doing one presentation. He got four or five owners. They each give him like four or five units or something like that. And he was able to add about 20 doors a month from just hanging out at this group. And being part of this group, and it's, he spent maybe max about five hours a month investing time into this group. [00:24:20] That is an amazing return. Five hours a month to get 20 doors a month, right? He was at 300 doors in six months of using the strategy. And then his business started to fall apart a little bit because he was adding too many doors. And back then, way back then, we didn't have the systems that we have to help clients with that problem. [00:24:42] We're like, we need to help clients solve that problem. We're good at solving that problem now. Like how do I deal with all these doors that I'm getting on? Which is a problem we think is super easy to create for clients to start adding an up doors that it gets painful. So groups can be very effective. [00:24:56] But make sure you get good at one on one first. You don't waste those opportunities. I've heard so many stories of wasted opportunities presenting to a group of real estate agents And then afterwards they're like, "I don't know. How'd I do? I don't know. I think I did okay. Some couple people came up to me and said I did all right."  [00:25:12] "Cool. Did you get any appointments or leads or anything scheduled?" [00:25:16] "Nothing," right? So and then maybe a lead here will trickle in like over time, but that's not effective. So a lot of these growth strategies they stack and they compound on each other.  [00:25:28] Let's touch on one more to wrap this up. Last one. This is a strategy we love to use with startups because startups they don't have a lot of confidence. They don't have a lot of knowledge. They're lacking a lot of knowledge about property management, and one of the big gaps in knowledge that they don't have that a lot of you that have been doing this for a long time and you've talked to a lot of owners is they don't understand their prospects' pain. [00:25:55] They don't understand the prospects concerns. They don't understand the language that their potential clients use, and they don't understand the objections that are preventing them and knowing all that. Sometimes can take people a decade to really dial in. And so our way of collapsing time on this dramatically quickly, like really fast is a technique called or strategy called product research interviews. [00:26:18] And this is also a great way to get your initial pool of clients, even if you're starting from zero. And so this strategy can work very well. I call this the Trojan horse of selling, but you're going to interview and we have the script for the interview. We have the four phase process for doing this. If you do this correctly, if you interview people that have rental properties and you do this effectively, you will be getting clients because getting clients is about having conversations with your target audience. And this gives you an excuse and an in to be able to get to know your target audience, to ask them questions and allow them to help you and give you advice and to why they are not currently working with a property manager and then be able to deal with all these and learn how to deal with all these objections and then how to do the ultimate pitch and how to solicit them in a non salesy way to do and give you another opportunity to pitch. But you get to pitch during this interview, you get to pitch your services. [00:27:22] To people that may not have considered property management before. So this is an easy way to get your foot in the door and get some of your first initial clients and build a relationship of trust. And that can be very effective. Did you want to say anything about product research interviews?  [00:27:35] Sarah: No. Michael used it. He was still over the 200 something door mark, and he used it, and I think he said he added like five or six doors in one week, and that was only after doing a few phone calls.  [00:27:48] Jason: He said 10. He added 10. I don't remember. Something like 10.  [00:27:51] Sarah: So, I don't remember exactly how many. I can go back and look at the stats. [00:27:54] Jason: Yeah, Michael Sullivan, he was on one of our podcast interviews we just did recently, a really great episode. Highly recommend you check it out. But he was like, "well, I'll try this and I'm an experienced property manager." He just came up with a different excuse to interview people instead of saying, "Hey, I'm starting a business and want to get some feedback." [00:28:10] He used a different strategy and use this strategy. And he was able to add doors from the first person that he interviewed. And we've had clients have that situation happen as well. So this can work. It's not just for starters, but it can work for anybody. In fact, this is the strategy I use when I first started our mastermind. [00:28:29] I did product research interviews to figure out what, how can I create the ultimate mastermind? Cool. I'll just interview people and ask them, what do you want? It was a little bit more complex than that, but that's kind of the idea. And that allowed me then to say, "Hey, would you be interested in this if I launched it and it had some of what you mentioned and the stuff that I'm pitching you on?" And everybody says, yes. And then I probably closed about half of them. And so that's how I started the mastermind so that I had a nice cohort and a pool of people to kick things off with. So, and this is one of the strategies I've used over and over again. [00:29:05] With new product launches or new offers to figure out how do I make this as good as possible? And this will help you make your product and your offer and your pitch as good as possible Really cool strategy and we've got the goods on how to do that as well And we've got other growth strategies, but these are some great ways to get leads that costs less money. [00:29:26] They take less time and they get you more warm leads and you'll close more deals more easily at a higher price point. And then if you do cold lead advertising, so there you go. And that's how to add lead, like get leads without doing SEO, without doing pay per click, without doing content marketing, without doing social media marketing, without doing pay per lead services, internet marketing. [00:29:50] You don't have to do internet marketing in order to grow your business and to grow faster than those that are. So, and that's it. Anything else? Nope. All right then until next time to our mutual growth, everybody make sure to join our free facebook group Doorgrowclub.Com. We put trainings in there. We give out information, and our goal in that group is to nurture you and warm you up so you can trust us and become one of our clients. We then can change your life and that's what we want to do is to transform this industry. Until next time to our mutual growth, bye everyone.  [00:30:26] You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:30:53] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Today on the podcast, Sarah joins us from Minnesota. Sarah got COVID-19 very early on in her first pregnancy during the height of the pandemic. The protocol at her practice was to recommend a precautionary 39-week induction. Sarah trusted her doctor and consented to the induction along with other interventions that were suggested. Her birth ended in a Cesarean under general anesthesia. During recovery, Sarah's knees would buckle to the point where she needed assistance walking and fell until the problem slowly resolved. When she achieved her VBAC, Sarah was able to immediately walk unassisted. She wasn't groggy from just having had anesthesia. Her throat didn't hurt. She got the immediate skin-to-skin she missed the first time.Sarah is such an amazing example of how powerful a VBAC birth can be, especially with the right prep and the right team. We just love how hands-off and supportive her doctor was. Sarah went into her birth mentally and physically strong. She labored hard, stayed calm, and pushed her baby boy out in 20 minutes!Additional LinksNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Welcome to The VBAC Link. We have a story for you today coming from Minnesota. We have our friend, Sarah. And Sarah, tell me. Did you have your babies both in Minnesota or have you moved since then? Sarah: Yes, both in Minnesota. Meagan: Both in Minnesota. All right, so Minnesota parents, listen up. This is a wonderful episode in your area. Review of the WeekAs always, we have a Review of the week but first I want to talk a little bit about COVID-19. Sarah and I were just talking about how we have seen so many COVID-19 stories coming through. They had their C-section through COVID-19 or even had their VBAC during COVID-19 and then now they have gone on to VBAC. There is definitely a trend of situations that we are seeing so I'm just so curious today. Go comment on today's episode and let us know if you have any relation, but a lot of providers are wanting to induce if you have the virus, COVID-19. Sarah, that was kind of the case with you, right? They wanted to induce because you had COVID-19. Sarah: Yes. That was kind of the standard of care at that point. Meagan: Yes, which is kind of interesting to think about the new standard of care. I really am curious to see one day what the Cesarean rates did during COVID-19. You know, there is some evidence here and there on it, but I'm really curious to see what the Cesarean rate did because we do have a lot of people saying that they were induced because they had COVID and then they ended in a Cesarean. So we're going to talk a little bit. She's going to share her birth and her induction story that then led to her VBAC. But of course, we have that review. It is by Raving Abbeh and the title is “Confidence.” It says, “I found this podcast at 34 weeks pregnant and it helped me gain the confidence to fight for my chance and get a VBAC. I hope to submit a success story in a few weeks.” And guess what? This was also during 2020, so Raving Abbeh, if you haven't submitted your story, we would love you to and as always, you guys, we're always accepting stories. We definitely record in chunks, so know that if it takes time, that doesn't mean you haven't been chosen or you will never be chosen, but if you want to submit your story, go to thevbaclink.com/share. Sarah's StoriesMeagan: Okay, Sarah. Welcome to the show. Sarah: I'm so excited. Meagan: I'm so excited. I'm so, so excited. Well, tell us more about this 39-week induction and why they were saying it was the new norm. It was the protocol, right? Sarah: Yes. So at this time, I was working full-time in the hospital where I gave birth as a radiographer– an X-ray tech. I was kind of in the world a little bit. It was definitely not a fun time to work in the hospital. I actually tested positive when I was 8 weeks pregnant, so very newly pregnant. I was seeing family med for my provider and what they were doing at that time, they said, “Okay. This is what's going to be different. You're going to meet with a high-risk OB who specialized in COVID.” I would have growth ultrasounds every 4 weeks and then also, they were recommending this induction at 39 weeks. When I asked about that, what she said was that they had seen issues with the placenta. That was the reason that they had. I actually looked back on it now and I think in the study, they really only had 16 pregnant people so that was what they were basing this all off on. Meagan: Which is really nothing to start making a protocol so wide-ranged. Sarah: Right. Right. And actually, right now, my sister-in-law had COVID and she's pregnant. She had COVID at the same time I did at 8 weeks, but now it's 2023 and her doctor is not doing the growth ultrasounds. They're not recommending induction. There actually is nothing different with her current, right-now pregnancy which I find interesting. Meagan: Interesting, right? Right? Sarah: But again, it can range. Meagan: In 2020, it's interesting because they were like, “Oh, we're going to have you with this provider who specializes in COVID pregnancies,” but how does someone specialize that fast? Sarah: Right. The person that was the specialized person was the highest-up person in the department of OB. Meagan: Okay, so definitely a specialized OB. Okay. Sarah: Right. I actually only ended up meeting up with her one time because if there was anything abnormal, that's when I would go to her but my pregnancy was completely normal. I had no issues related to COVID or related to anything else which was obviously a blessing, but kind of also a bummer because now, I'm going to have this completely unnecessary induction at 39 weeks.Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: She did mention at the time that if I wanted to go past 39 weeks, I could definitely make that choice but she would do NSTs. Now after learning so much and being where I am now, I would have been like, “Okay. Let's go longer and do NSTs,” but at the time as a first-time parent, I was like, “That sounds kind of weird. Let's just do what you think.” Meagan: It sounds intense with all of these extra visits. It's a lot. It sounds like a lot. Sarah: Yeah. Otherwise, about that pregnancy, being a first-time parent and having this medical background, it's no surprise probably that my attitudes towards the doctors were that I completely trusted their knowledge with the COVID stuff because it was so new. Meagan: Oh yeah, and scary. Sarah: Yeah, definitely, but I was completely unaware that there was such a wide range of ways to treat pregnancies and so many different attitudes on how to birth babies. I was just clueless to the whole thing about the cascade of interventions and why do inductions have an increased risk of C-section? I was completely clueless to it. I am just used to with a doctor, you have a certain condition and there are ways to treat it. It was very narrow. But with birth, there are midwives. There are doulas. There are so many different ways to treat someone's birth and pregnancy that was just over my head. When people would ask me, “Oh, why are you having an induction?” and tell me that maybe I shouldn't do that, I was like, “Oh, well why wouldn't I when they say that is the best thing to do for this COVID situation?” For me, it was like, “Well, they know better than me.” Meagan: Right, yeah. Sarah: I think you say all the time that you don't know what you don't know. Meagan: You don't know what you don't know and you can't judge yourself for not knowing what you don't know. Sarah: Yes. I definitely had to work through forgiving myself for sure. Meagan: Yeah. You have to take the information. I think I talked about this too. My husband had said this. We took the information we were given and made the best choice that we felt we had with the information provided. Sarah:  Yes. Meagan: Right? And that's what you did. Sarah: Right. Honestly, it's funny now. Even just preparing for birth in general, take away the COVID part, it's kind of funny how I did basically nothing to prepare for birth. I just focused on my registry and other things like that after the baby got there. It was kind of because I had this, “Oh if I go with the flow, I'll have the best outcome. I don't want to put too many expectations on myself. I don't want to pressure myself. I'm just going to go with the flow. I don't know how my body is going to handle it,” which does have a place. There is a goodness to that, but I think I was a little too extreme where I was like, “My mom had C-sections. I know if that happens, it happens.” It was just very, “Whatever happens, happens.” Now, I look back and I'm like, “Well, now all I did was have no tools in my toolbox to deal with pain, labor, or resources to help make those hard decisions that I was going to have to make.” I had nothing in the background to help me with that. Meagan: No tools in your toolbox. Sarah: Exactly. That's why it was very different for my second birth but at that time, I was like, “Okay, whatever happens, happens. I don't know what's going to happen to me or how my body is going to take it, so we'll just see what happens.” I was scheduled at 39 weeks on a Monday and actually, that Friday before, they called me and said, “Hey, do you want to come in early? We have a lot of people scheduled on Monday.” I was like, “Oh, I'm excited to meet my baby. I'll go in even earlier,” which is like, oh. Okay. That weekend, we were actually moving into our new house an hour away. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Sarah: We actually spent one night at our new house and the next day we drove back to Rochester to have our baby but we were so excited. Meagan: Yeah. Absolutely. Sarah: I wasn't even thinking about anything else. We were scheduled for a 7:00 PM Saturday appointment then. When I got there, I was completely 0% dilated. Closed. 0, 0, 0, -3 station. Furthest from ready. Meagan: Not ready to have a baby, yeah. Sarah: No. So they started me with Cytotec overnight and in the morning, they placed the Cook catheter then they started Pitocin right after. I faintly remember watching Beauty and the Beast bouncing on a ball, but that was the extent of any movement in my labor. Like I said, I didn't prepare for anything. I just was like, “Oh, bounce on a ball. Everyone says that's good.” I didn't do much. But what did start happening was the baby was having decels, not liking the Pitocin, so I had to get moved from side to side. I was lying on the bed– not the best position to have the baby not be so high up. Meagan: Right. Sarah: But then by 10:00 AM, they took out the Cook catheter. I was 4 centimeters dilated. Things were moving along. But then at 11:00, they had to turn down the Pitocin because again, the baby was still not tolerating it very well. Then I felt a big pop in my belly and I was like, “Oh, is this what it feels like when your water breaks?” I was excited. I'm like, “Oh, that sounded like a balloon popping.” So they came in and they were like, “No, we don't see anything. Your water didn't break.” I was like, “Oh, okay sure.” Meagan: I felt something. Sarah: So then a half hour later, they came back in because they had to actually turn off the Pitocin because the baby still wasn't happy. They checked me and they're like, “Oh, there's all your water,” and it gushed out on them. So I was like, “Okay, well at least I know that I can trust my intuition even though you didn't quite believe me.” Meagan: Yes. Sarah: But I'm not crazy. It did break. The contractions were getting really intense at this point. I tried laughing gas. It didn't really work. At that point, I decided, “Okay. I'm ready for an epidural. I feel like I've gotten as far as I can with what I prepared,” which was nothing. I actually found out this after the fact, but at this point, they actually gave me medicine to stop my contractions. Meagan: Like terbutaline or something?Sarah: Yes, exactly. They gave me that at this point. I actually have no recollection of this, but I was able to look at my records after the fact and I was like, “Oh, I never knew they even gave me that.” Apparently, they gave me that to stop things or slow them down or whatever. I was about 5 centimeters dilated at this point and they placed the epidural. Everything went smoothly with that and then an hour later, they were like, “Oh, we're going to start the Pitocin again.” I was like, “Okay.” I was 5 centimeters at that point and then 40 minutes later, they checked me and I was 9 centimeters. Meagan: Whoa, so your body went into total relaxation mode and dilated. Sarah: Yes. Yes. I was like, “Cool. That was fast.” They had just sent away the doctor. They had to call her back. Shortly after that, I was at 10 centimeters, ready to go. This is when they had me start pushing. One important part that I know now is that I don't remember ever feeling pressure or the urge to push or anything like that. They were just like, “Okay. It's time to push.” I'm like, “Okay.”I did end up pushing for about 3 hours. They did let me try a few different positions. They tried to turn down my epidural to help too, but she never really progressed past that zero station. So nothing was happening. I was mostly on my back for all of it.I remember them saying that they would let me push for the most at 4 hours, but at the 3-hour mark, I was exhausted. I felt like we had made no progress. I was just like, “Nothing's going to change in another hour at this point for me. I don't know what I'm doing. You try to tell me how to push. I still don't know.” Meagan: Yeah. You're just like, “I'm tired.” Sarah: Exactly. The contractions were beginning to be really painful. Again, I didn't really have a way to cope with them. The pushing wasn't working so I consented to the C-section. I just remember feeling so defeated and just crying, being wheeled into the OR. My doctor stayed right by my head and talked to me until my husband was supposed to come in because I kept saying, “Hey, I feel these contractions. They are strong.” They were trying to give me all of the medicine to numb me enough. They were doing the prick test to make sure that I couldn't feel it and I just remember it was really hard because my nose was plugged up from crying. I felt like I couldn't breathe anyway. I wasn't sure about the pokes. I was like, “They are sharp to me. I feel them. They don't feel like pressure. They feel sharp.” They were like, “Okay. Well, we're going to have to put you under.” They put the mask on me. I breathed in and went to sleep. Meagan: And you were gone. Sarah: Yep. Then I was gone. Meagan: Your husband probably never came in then? Sarah: So he did get to go into the OR. She was born. They let him go in so he was all gowned up. He was in the OR. He kind of tells it like, “Yeah, it was so weird. I looked over and there you were on the table.” He wasn't so close to me. Meagan: Sleeping. Sarah: But yeah. I was sleeping. He did get to do skin-to-skin. They let him do that in the OR which was really nice. They got a bunch of pictures of her getting weighed and him cutting the cord in there so it was nice to have some of those pictures that I can look back on. Meagan: Right. Sarah: That's something. Meagan: Right, yeah. It helps you relate, too, when you're not awake. Sarah: Exactly. It was definitely a weird experience. But when I did come to, apparently, I had been awake longer but you know how that works. When you're waking up from anesthesia, it's kind of weird. But apparently, when I woke up, they told me that I was just like, “Where's the baby? Where's the baby? Where's the baby?” They rushed me back. I don't remember any of that, but what I do remember is when I woke up, my throat was so sore and hurt so bad. But she was on me and she latched immediately and started feeding so that was really special. Meagan: Yes. Sarah: Just how she was able to eat right away and I didn't have any problems with that which was really nice. I know that can happen sometimes. That's basically that birth. Meagan: An unexpected ending and a less-ideal situation, but then to come out and have things work out really nicely was probably really healing and comforting. Sarah: Yes. Right away, I was definitely happy. She was healthy. I was okay. She was eating. But I remember just recovering from a C-section, you're in a fog. I remember my legs being in those machines to keep the blood flowing, having a catheter, having my sore throat, and whispering to talk. That kind of thing was definitely not a fun recovery in that aspect right immediately after. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: I actually had a really weird thing. I had problems with my knees. Meagan: Oh. Sarah: I have never heard anyone else talk about this. Meagan: Interesting, like wobbly and strong? Sarah: So what happened was once they took out the catheter and then they give you the, “Okay, it's time to try to go to the bathroom for the first time.” When I tried to stand up, my knees would just buckle. The first day, I had to have two people assist me to the bathroom. The second day, it was also a two-assist. Slowly, they started to not always buckle. I was in the hospital, I think, for four days. Four or five days. Eventually, they wouldn't buckle but when I got home, they would buckle when I went upstairs. I did fall twice but slowly, they did get better. It was fine. It was just if I unexpectedly took a step. My cat scared me and I stepped and then I would fall because my knee wasn't expecting it. Meagan: I just looked it up because I am legitimately curious. It says, “Acute lower limb compartment syndrome after a Cesarean.” Sarah: Oh. Hmm. Meagan: Interesting. So it can happen. Sarah: Interesting. I was just kind of assuming it was a mix of me being numbed from the waist down for hours and then my legs being up in the air for hours and then being in the C-section, and then also laying down. Do you know what I mean? Something with that, but no doctor or anything ever said anything to me about it. They were just like, “Oh, okay. That's weird.” Meagan: Yeah. Really, really interesting. It says that it's rare. Sarah: Oh. Meagan: It's pretty rare, so you get to be in one of those rare groups. Thank you for sharing. Sarah: Yeah, so otherwise, I hadn't really fully processed the birth but every time I would tell my birth story, I would choke up or cry and that's when I realized, “Oh, maybe I didn't really like that very much” because at first, you're just happy the baby is okay and you're okay. I actually remember right afterward, I was like, “Oh, okay for any other baby, I'll just schedule a C-section. This time it will be planned and I'm going to be awake for it.” I honestly wasn't even thinking about VBAC right away. I was just like, “Oh, the future will be easier. It will be fine.” But when my daughter was around 6 months old, I started to listen to The Birth Hour and I found myself searching C-section stories, looking for things like mine which led me to hearing VBAC stories, searching those out, and then finally finding The VBAC Link. That was the big game changer. I am so appreciative of you guys having this podcast and keeping it going on and all that. Meagan: Absolutely. Sarah: Such an inspiration. I learned so much even from both podcasts about interventions, doulas, birth teams, and most importantly, trusting in a woman's body. It kind of leads me to this big thing. It's like, why do we have to go through some sort of trauma to become an advocate for women and educate ourselves? Meagan: Right? Sarah: I feel like that's such a theme. Meagan: It's so true though. It's so true. Why do we have to go through a really crappy experience? It doesn't always have to be crappy. I'm not saying C-sections are crappy, but a big experience to have passion and to feel that motivation behind that.Sarah: Exactly. Yep. Sometimes, it's so hard because it's like when you talk to someone who hasn't been affected by this kind of situation where it doesn't go their way in the hospital, it sounds like a conspiracy theory. “You can't trust the doctors.” That's not what we're saying. It's so much more than that. Meagan: It is. It really is. It's not even just in birth. Truly, right? My husband does not do what he does, I think, mainly just because he didn't want to do it one day. It was like, “Hey, this really unfortunate situation happened to someone I love and I want to be available in a different manner to help them or help anybody else.” So he took on his profession. It's like IBCLCs– I'm sure a lot of them have had unfortunate or poor nursing experiences and are like, “We want to help other people have better experiences.”Sarah: Yes, because it's the information that, “Oh, wow.” It makes complete sense that, “Oh, things might go a little bit better if you let your body naturally do it.” Oh, well yeah. That makes sense. It makes sense that, “Oh, if I have someone who's trained in positioning, maybe if I move my body in this way, then I can get my baby in a better position to come out better. Oh, that makes sense. Why didn't I know that? Why didn't my doctor say, ‘Hey, there are some positions that can help.'” It's confusing to me. It's like, well that makes sense. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. So obviously, I just dove right into all of the VBAC stuff and learning all about that and listening to different stories. I was super excited for my next pregnancy because I had made the decision, “Yes. I'm going to go for a VBAC and I'm super excited about it.” I was ready to do all of the things to make it more successful. We got pregnant when my daughter was around 15 months old. We wanted a two-year age gap and they're both two years apart in April so that worked out for us. Meagan: Perfectly, yeah. Sarah: So the things I did to make it more successful– they are all things that people on this podcast talk about. For physical things, it was workouts that focused on birth prep. I didn't do anything crazy like walking for miles and miles every day. I just did the minimal which was doing some exercises every day for hips opening, cat/cow, and all of that stuff. I did the Miles Circuit later on in pregnancy every day. I ate my dates every day. I drank my tea.Then I think the biggest thing, too, is mentally preparing. For mentally preparing, I got my doula. I really love that the doula does the meetings before the birth. I didn't even know that when I had heard people talk about doulas but meeting before and talking about what birth plan I wanted, what things– Meagan: Your desires. Sarah: Exactly and what things could happen. I'm like, “This would be so helpful for a first-time parent to know all of this stuff.” I wish I had gotten her with my first. Also, just talking about coping mechanisms, what are some positions that we are going to do, talk about scenarios. It was great. Then I also, for mentally preparing, I looked up a bunch of different coping mechanisms. I actually did Hypnobabies. I wasn't consistent with the meditation, but it was very helpful to practice the breathing and visualization. Meagan: I did too. I did it as well. Sarah: I was really bad at the meditations so that didn't stick with me, but it was really, really great to practice the breathing and all of that. And honestly, just listening to birth stories is mentally preparing because I would really only focus on positive stories toward the end of my pregnancy. I was like, “Okay, now we are in the home stretch. We are just going to stick to all of the positive ones.” The big thing, too, was finding my provider. I joined The VBAC Cesarean Support Group on Facebook way earlier and everyone had all of the recommendations of who to go to. My provider is actually family med, but he is more like a midwife. Actually, my doula said that he's actually more crunchy than a midwife as a family med. For all of the births that she attended, she said, “He is more hands-off than a midwife.” I'm like, “Wow.” Meagan: Wow, that's cool. Sarah: And what's great is that he attends all of his births so there is no rotating call schedule. Meagan: Which is huge. Sarah: There's no, “Who's going to be there?” He's very trusting of women's bodies. I did my due diligence and I asked him, “How often have you personally seen a uterine rupture? How often do you use the vacuum? How often have you done episiotomies?” You know, so just asking him all of the things. He had really great responses and I felt really solid with him. Meagan: Which is really important, right? To have those conversations also. We know that when they come in and they say, “Hey, do you have any questions?” It's really okay to ask questions. Sarah: Yes. That's the big thing. So because he's not an OB, I had to go do a consult with the OB that he works with in the hospital. The OB who works in the hospital definitely wasn't making me fearful, but there's a certain form you have to fill out that says, “Hey, obviously if you're successful with your TOLAC, that's going to be the safest option for you. But if you're not successful, that's the least safe.” It's easy to plant doubt, but after I saw him again, I asked my provider, “How often do you see it?” It was such a small amount and since he's one of the VBAC go-tos, I felt very confident with him. It was really nice to have that fear taken away in that way. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah: And then this is kind of interesting. Just for fun, I did message my old provider at my previous hospital just to see what she would say about my chances for VBAC. I actually messaged her before I was pregnant. I said, “Hey, I am kind of processing and struggling from my C-section. What do you think about my chance for VBAC?” It was just on a message. What she said was, “You did everything you could at that time to have her vaginally, but she just didn't fit your pelvis for whatever reason. We think of fitting as a lock and key situation. Both pieces have to work together to open, so there's no way to know if a future baby would ever fit your pelvis better than she did.” Then she kind of went on. I thought, “Nope.” I'm like, “Nope. I'm not taking that in.” Meagan: Yes. Sarah: It was interesting. Meagan: Thank you so much, but no thanks. Sarah: Exactly.Sarah: Exactly. I'm like, “I don't think she didn't fit my pelvis. That's not a thing.” Meagan: But you know, it's an easy thing for people to say or diagnose. It's like, “Oh, well your baby was perfect. You were perfect, but the two together didn't really match that time.” Sarah: Right. Meagan: That doesn't necessarily mean that's true. We just don't know. Sarah: Again, we can't go back in time and have me try something different. Meagan: Yes, yes. Sarah: But I think it's interesting that she said that. Meagan: It is. Sarah: Again, I talked to my doctor. He's like, “Oh yeah. Great. Let's do it.” Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: He said, “You've got this.” So you know. Otherwise, I'm preparing. This is the funny thing too, again. At first, I didn't have any intention of trying to go unmedicated. At first. I was like, “I definitely want to VBAC,” but I wasn't trying to do that. I was just focused on the VBAC part. But once you hear enough birth stories, you know that if I do all of this preparation and I go as long as I can without this intervention, I'm going to have the best possible chance of a healthy vaginal birth. If it still ends in a C-section, it's because that was what had to happen not because I didn't know any better. Meagan: Right. Sarah: So that's when I was like, “Yes, okay. It makes sense for me to try. I should just try to go unmedicated. I should just do it. Whatever happens, happens.” I still am keeping my go-with-the-flow but with a lot of preparation. It was kind of funny because when I would tell people that, “I'm trying to go unmedicated,” people will say the craziest things to you. Meagan: Right? “I could never.” Sarah: Yes, or “I know someone who did and it was the worst thing they ever chose to do. They said, ‘Never do that.'” It's like, I know and I've heard many, many stories of people doing it and are very happy with the outcome. So definitely right before, I was 37 weeks. I was like, “I'm going to read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth.” Everybody talks about it, but I just wanted to hone in and focus on those unmedicated birth stories and just say, “How did you guys do this? How was it successful?” That was really helpful. I really liked that book. That was really good. Meagan: Yeah. I really like it too. Sarah: Yeah. Otherwise in this pregnancy though, I physically felt really good. I got Braxton Hicks contractions which I didn't have in my first pregnancy. That was definitely new. Meagan: Yes. Probably exciting. Sarah: It was exciting. I was like, “Okay, yeah. Every birth is different.” That was one of the Hypnobabies thing that stuck with me. Each baby is different. Your birth is going to be different. Don't let that fear creep in on you. But at 33 weeks, I found out the baby was breech so that was scary. Meagan: Yeah. It throws you for a loop, right? Sarah: Yes. When I found out that he was breech, I immediately messaged my doula. She gave me Spinning Babies exercises to do every day. I was making sure I was sitting forward and all of that stuff. Then I went to see a chiropractor first and then she also gave me this massage therapist who was trained in breech balancing massage. I went to both of those and the baby was flipped at my next appointment at 35 weeks. Meagan: Yay. Sarah: So I was very happy. The coolest thing with the massage therapist—in our state, I'm pretty sure she is maybe the only one who does this breech balancing massage. She told me because I actually went to do a follow-up appointment. Even though he was already head down, I was like, “Let's just go again to make sure.” She said that she was treating six other breech moms at that time and they had all flipped when I came back from my second appointment. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Sarah: Yeah. I'm always in the groups. I'm like, “If anyone is breech, try this specific breech balancing massage. Yeah.” It's really interesting just listening to her talk about it because she is so knowledgeable about, “Hey, your baby is breech for a reason. You have these muscles that get tightened. Your pelvis is this bowl and if things are in the wrong position, the baby wants to be head down. If I can release all of these muscles and make more space in there, even if the massage might not on its own make your baby flip, but giving your baby that space, then your ECV is more successful if you do that. Meagan: Right. Sarah: I was very happy because I had done all of this work and hyped myself up. I wouldn't want to have to schedule a C-section for this reason after all of that but if it happened, it happened. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: So everything was going good then until my 39-week appointment. I had a high blood pressure reading so I was like, “Oh great.” But my doctor was not worried. He had me do an NST, labs, and monitor at home. I came back in a few days and everything was good. That was nice. Actually, the day that I went back for my follow-up for my high blood pressure was the day that I got my birth records. They had my birth records there for me. I had gone this whole time. I was almost 40 weeks and I was like, “I still really want to see.” Meagan: You had requested them? Sarah: Yeah, and it just took a really long time to get them. When I had that appointment, I was able to get my birth records earlier than I thought. I didn't think I was even going to get them by the time I had the baby. I was able to read through them and kind of work through it. My doula was like, “Oh, do you want to call and talk about it?” I was like, “Yes.” It was kind of like a fear release for me because that night I went into labor. Meagan: Yeah. Did you find anything in there that you didn't know before? Sarah: I mean, that one thing was that terbutaline. I didn't know that. And then I was just curious about some of the dilation. Also, I saw on my records too that the surgeon who did my C-section put, “This patient is a candidate for a TOLAC.” Meagan: Oh yeah. Sarah: It was nice just to have that and to see that the surgeon who did my C-section would put that on my note like, “Yeah. They are a candidate.”Meagan: Yeah, it's helpful. Sarah: Just working through it too was nice to see it in a timeline. So that night was the night I went into labor. At 2:00 AM, I woke up with my contractions. Right away, they were 3-7 minutes apart. I had the same situation three weeks before where I woke up and had contractions that were 3-7 minutes apart, but they fizzled out and didn't come back. I only had that situation one time earlier. So I was like, “Oh, this could be another practice. This could be the real thing.” But they were stronger than the last time. That's the biggest thing too. Even though they were so close together, I was handling them so well that I was like, “I think I'll just wait this out,” which is interesting because if you're a first-time mom, you're like, “Hey, this is 4-1-1. I'm having them.” Meagan: You have to go! Sarah: And they're long. A lot of them were long like at least a minute, but they just weren't strong so I was like, “Okay, well I'll wait.” Then my husband woke up at 4:00 AM. I was like, “Hey, I'm having these contractions.” His response was, “I'd better hurry up and go work. I've got some work to get done.” He's like, “Oh no. I gotta go.” So then he went away to go work on stuff. Then by 6:00 AM, I was like, “Okay.” I had a couple really strong ones so I was like, “Oh.” Then I was also getting back labor so I was like, “All right. Time to text the doula.” I was like, “Hey, this is what's going on.” She was like, “Well, your back pain might be because of the baby's position, so try to do the Miles Circuit. Eat a good breakfast. Hydrate. I'm preparing you for possibly a long day.” I said, “Okay, sounds good.” I had my bagel with cream cheese. I got my Body Armor drinks out, but when I tried to do the Miles Circuit, it was so intense. I could not. The minute I laid down and I had a contraction in the Miles Circuit position, the laying down one, it was like, “Whoa, no.” Meagan: Not gonna happen. Sarah: I'm like, “I think this is time for me to start going into some prep mode here.” So I dimmed the lights in my room. I had my ball but I actually didn't like bouncing on it so I never bounced on it. Meagan: Was it uncomfortable? Sarah: Yeah. For me, that seated position was uncomfortable. For me, I was in a forward-leaning position. I'd lean against the wall and sway or I'd have my husband come. I'd hug him and sway. I'm like, “This is working out okay.” The back labor was a different aspect that was like, “There's got to be something I can do for this back labor.” I messaged her and she's like, “Okay, well obviously have him try to do hip squeezes,” but he wasn't really getting the job done with the hip squeezes. She recommended the shower to also help us see if it's going to calm down or if it will keep going. I got in the shower and it was magic. The heat on the back was perfect. My favorite thing ever, but the hot water ran out after 15 minutes and I was so sad. Meagan: Oh shoot. Sarah: So the hot water ran out and I was like, “Oh man.” I got out of the shower and I was like, “Now we might just have to go to the hospital right now because I need hot water. I want to get in that tub.” That was my dream was getting in the tub. Meagan: Right. Sarah: So my doula checked in with me at this point and asked about the shower. I was like, “Yeah.” I think I was kind of in denial because I was like, “Oh, it's medium intense,” but they were still happening. She was like, “Okay, well maybe you should start heading in as long as they are staying 3-4 minutes consistently for an hour. Go ahead and start heading in.” At this point, she also tells me that she is actually in another birth. Then she joined me with the backup doula so she was at another birth. I was like, “Oh bummer.” But my backup doula ended up being amazing as well. But you know, when you're preparing with someone— Meagan: Can I just say right there that is a real thing? It's usually if you have to have a backup doula, it usually works out so well. Right? Sarah: Yeah, it was so good. Meagan: But like you were saying as I was cutting you off, as you were preparing with someone else, it's hard. Sarah: Yeah, it's kind of a bummer because you know this person so well and you had worked with them, but it worked out perfectly fine too. I really like my backup doula. She's great as well. She told me, again because I was like, “Hey, what can I do for now? We're going to head in probably soon but what else can I do for this back pain?” She was like, “Do you have a heating pack?” I'm like, “Ooh, yes.” I was putting a hot pack on my back which again, wasn't hot enough for me. Meagan: You needed a hot tub. Sarah: It did something. At this point, my daughter had actually woken up because we were still at home. It was about 8:00 and she was so sweet. Every time I'd have a contraction, I'd go into my room. I'd have my calming music on and my swaying but then I would leave and I'd come back out with her. She was just so sad. She wasn't crying, but she had these big tears welling up in her eyes. I would hold her and she would pat my back. She was like, “It's okay.” It's like she knew that something was going on. I was like, “I'm okay. It's okay.” She was just kind of like, “What is going on?” I wasn't making loud, loud noises but I would be doing horse lips through them or moaning. Meagan: Coping. Sarah: Yeah, nothing too crazy, but for her, she could tell that something was going on. Luckily, my mother-in-law and sister-in-law came over shortly after that around 8:30ish. My sister-in-law took my daughter and was like, “Let's go play,” so she was good. She was good. My mother-in-law saved me because she said, “Oh, I will boil hot water.” So she got a big pot and boiled hot water. She put cloths in them and put those on my back. That was amazing. Meagan: I bet that felt really good. Sarah: Right. So at this point, my husband probably should have been getting the cars ready for us to go to the hospital, but instead, he was cleaning the house frantically. Meagan: That was probably his way of coping. “Oh my gosh, this is happening. I'm going to go work and then I'm going to go clean the house.” Sarah: Yes. Yes, so we're like, “Okay, it's time. We've got to get going.” I'm like, “Yeah. I've got to get going.” So finally, we get in the car. My back is soaking wet from these hot towels but they are saving me. Luckily, the drive was only 10 minutes. I had my hot towel in there. It wasn't the most comfortable, but we got there. They checked us in and they moved us to triage. At this point, again, the sitting position was not my position for labor. It was, “Nope, not happening.” I was always kneeling, facing the back of the bed. The back of the bed was up. I held onto it. Then when I was in triage, though, I didn't have my coping mechanisms. I didn't have my hot towels. My next plan that I had was the comb technique. I had packed a couple of combs. I was telling my husband, “All right. Your hip squeezes—” he was trying to find the combs and of course, he couldn't find the combs that I brought. But he did remember that he brought his own comb. Meagan: Hey! Sarah: So I was able to take his comb which I can say RIP to his comb. I used it. There were little comb tings, whatever they are called, the teeth of the comb were everywhere at the end of my birth but it definitely worked. So then every time I would have a contraction, I was pushing on the comb and breathing as they were checking me into triage. But they were able to kind of get the band on me. They gave me an ultrasound to make sure the baby was head down while I was in triage. Then they checked me. The nurse checked me and when she was down there, she was like, “Oh, it's really hard to tell how dilated you are because you have a bulging bag of waters and I really can't tell what you're doing.” She was like, “I think you're almost complete.” I'm like, “Okay.” Meagan: Whoa. Sarah: I'm like, “Okay.” This whole time, she'd been trying to call someone on her radio, but they were really busy. At that point, she was like, “Okay, let's get this room.” She was like, “I'll just wheel you on this bed unless you want to walk.” I'm like, “Actually, I want to walk.” I was actually thinking, “You know what? I think I want the bed that is in the room. The triage beds aren't probably as comfortable.” That's where my mind was so I was like, “Let me just walk.” Meagan: No. Sarah: So they get me in the room and again, my doula is on her way but she's not there yet. It's about, I think, 10:00. My doctor comes in. They put the little IV on my arm in case I need any medicine. All I'm doing right now- Meagan: Hep lock. Sarah: Yes, exactly. All I'm saying is that I just wanted to get in the tub. This is me the whole time in triage. Meagan: I just want the water. Sarah: I want to get in the tub. I want to get in the tub. The comb is helping, but I want to get in the tub. So he comes in. I'm like, “Hey, can I get in the tub?” He's like, “Well, you can but I should probably check you first if you want me to. If you're really close like the nurse thinks, then you'll have to push soon possibly.” I'm like, “Yes. Check me because then, if I'm not, I can get in the tub.” That was in the back of my mind. He checked me. He's down there for a while and I'm finally like, “Okay, you've got to get out.” He's like, “I understand why they are having a hard time. Yes. You have a big, bulging bag of waters. I can tell why she had a hard time and I think you're maybe 7 or 8 centimeters but I can't tell. As soon as the water breaks, you're going to be fast.” I was like, “Sounds like I can get in the tub.” He was like, “Yes, you can.” Meagan: You're like, “Perfect.” Sarah: Perfect. This is when my doula came around this time. She helped get the tub in motion because they were like, “Well, it's going to take a while. We've got to get you on these mobile monitors.” She went in and she got the water going and I was able to get in the tub. The only problem is that once I got in the tub, I was like, “Oh, I think I have to poop,” which is the magic— Meagan: Means you're going to have a baby! Sarah: She was like, “Well if you want, you can sit on the toilet and see if you actually do poop.” I was like, “Sounds like a plan.” I sat on the toilet facing the back of the toilet. I had my hands on my comb. My comb was with me everywhere. That's when I had the scary, scary transition contraction. I was so happy I had her there because she was saying all of the right things and at this point, I can't remember any of them except for her saying to me, “This is the hardest part, but it's also the shortest. You are in transition.” When I heard her, I was like, “Okay, that makes sense.” I was a little shaky. You just feel so out of control. I was like, “Whoa. I don't know about this. I'm not sure about this.” Meagan: You start questioning. It's weird. Sarah: It is really, yeah. But she was saying all of the things I needed to hear, so I was good. So then I was like, “Okay, no poop is coming. Let's get back in the tub.” So I got back in the tub, and then I had probably one contraction and then a lab person came to the door and was like, “I've got to take your blood.” We're like, “Uh, okay. Let's just wait until she's in between contractions.” I'm like, “That's a good idea.” So she comes in. She turns on the light. I'm like, “This is throwing off my vibe.” She sits down next to me and she scans my band and then they were like, “Okay, let's wait for the next one.” The next contraction came and it was the, “My body is pushing! I'm pushing. Help!” I had that fetal ejection reflex, but my water was still intact so it was more of the water ejection reflex. Meagan: It was pushing that, yeah. Exactly. Sarah: My body did the thing where it pushed on its own. I've always heard about this when I've listened to the podcasts that this happens. I was always like, “Oh, I want that. That sounds nice. Do it for me,” but I did not like it. Nope. Especially because I was in the tub, maybe that's why, but I just felt so out of control. I was like, “Whoa. I'm not controlling this pushing,” but I was also very excited because I knew that meant it was time. The lab person promptly left the bathroom and they never got my blood. I don't know why they needed it, but they never got it. Meagan: I know. It's so weird, “We need your blood right now.” It's like, “Really? Why?” Sarah: Yeah. Especially when, “Oh, I'm in transition about to have a baby.” I think you're okay. Meagan: Seriously. Sarah: I had that. So that happened and then my doula was like, “Well, do you think you want to get in the bed?” I'm like, “Yes. If a baby is coming, I need to be on the bed.” So again, my favorite position—even my tub position was my hands and knees. I was draping my hand on the back of the bed kind of in that—I wasn't really hands and knees because I started that way and then I ended up hugging a pillow and kind of squatting back. Meagan: Yeah, okay. Sarah: Yeah. I started pushing. Again, my waters hadn't broken yet which was obviously, this is a big thing with my provider. He is hands-off. Any other provider would have said, “Do you want me to break your water?” Meagan: Absolutely. Sarah: That would have been a thing. It was kind of interesting that “Nope. I'm just doing it all on my own what my body wants to do.” I was pushing for about 10 minutes and then my waters exploded. They all knew it was coming, so no one got drenched, but it was so loud. Meagan: Everyone was probably a little sensitive in that area. They were probably like, “I'll walk over here.” Sarah: Yes. They expected it. My doctor was like, “I might get drenched, but I'm ready for it.” But he didn't. Meagan: That's okay. Sarah: It was so loud. I was shocked. It was like a gunshot. It felt like it was just like BAM when I pushed it out. So that was great. Then about 5 minutes after that, he was born. I pushed the waters out and then pushed him out. His head was right there and they were like, “Oh, you can reach down and feel the head.” I'm like, “I can't.” I had to reach down. I'm like, “My arms are too short.” So then I pushed him out. It was about two pushes I think.Yes, as soon as that water was done, yeah. He was two pushes after that. It was about 20 minutes of pushing total. Meagan: Whoa. That's like nothing. Sarah: Yeah, then I got to flip around. They put him on me and they didn't cut the cord until it was done pulsing. They did delayed cord clamping. They did the golden hour. He was just on my chest the whole time. I birthed my placenta which was fine. I did have a small tear which was just something I was scared about with an unmedicated birth. I'm like, “Oh, that will be not pleasant. I hope I don't but again, no idea. I probably will. Most people do.” It was a very small, I guess, second-degree tear but he numbed it. It just felt like a bunch of little bee stings. He numbed it and stitched it. It was fine. Baby was on my chest for that whole hour. What was crazy to me—I also consented to having the Pitocin drip afterward to get the— Meagan: The uterus to contract down, mhmm. Sarah: Yes, yes. I had that. Once that was done, I was able to just stand up and go to the bathroom. Meagan: Amazing, right? Sarah: I could just get up to go to the bathroom. I felt good. I felt fine. This was about 10:50 in the morning, so yeah. I was at the hospital for an hour and a half before he was born. Later that night around 5:00, we had family come over to see the baby that night. I felt as great as could be with still normal postpartum stuff. Meagan: Right. You did just push a baby out. But you weren't knocked out and coming too and all of those other things. Sarah: Yes. So yeah. That's about it for that.Meagan: Aw, yes. Well, congratulations. I'm sure that was a very different experience. I mean, I'm sure both babies were, right? We all cherish our babies' births but to be more present in your baby's birth, I'm sure definitely left an impact. Sarah: Yeah. Even my husband told me that for this time, he actually teared up and felt like it was just such a more of an emotional experience even for him which is completely understandable. It was actually really scary for him with the C-section he told me. They tell you, “Hey, we're going to go put your wife out. We're going to come back and get you and then you're going to come and be part of it.” He's sitting there waiting, waiting, waiting. They just kind of say, “Hey, you can't go in anymore. We knocked her out. You have to wait here. It's going to be a while.” Then he's just like, “Oh, is she going to be okay?” It was a little scary for him too, that first one. This was a lot, obviously, more emotional and just a really cool experience for both of us. Meagan: Yeah. I'm sure it was very healing for both of you like you said. That couldn't have been easy for him walking in and seeing you in that manner. I mean, the fact that he even brought it up. “It was weird when I walked in and you were laying there but then I'm over here doing skin-to-skin with this baby.” Sarah: Yep. Meagan: I'm sure it was so healing for both of you. Huge congrats. Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Oh, and one thing to mention with the doctor is that because I gave him all of my birth plan too, at no point in this hospital situation was I ever offered anything. They knew what my preferences were. They never said anything about any interventions at all. They never said, “Do you want us to break this water?” Everyone was on board. It was great. Meagan: Yeah. You really didn't feel like you had to fight along the way. Sarah: Yeah. It was all supportive which is what I wanted. Meagan: Yeah, and what you deserved. Sarah: Yeah. It was really great to have that. Honestly, the thing I also really liked about pushing in that position where you are facing the back of the bed was that I didn't see all of the people staring at me. It was nice because—and not that it would have mattered—but I'm kind of socially anxious in that situation so it was nice to just be focused on my husband's hand holding me. I've got my comb. I'm breathing. I'm totally in it. I'm not looking around. With the C-section, that labor was like everyone was staring at you. You're pushing and trying and nothing is happening. It was so nice to just be here in my world. I never even saw anyone. Meagan: Yeah. Sometimes you see people's faces and they are not wanting to communicate with their mouths so they communicate with their faces. So when you are just staring at all of these people surrounding you, you find yourself, “What are they saying?” Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Meagan: You start questioning it. It pulls you out of that space. It sounds like you were really able to stay in that space because maybe you didn't see any of that. Sarah: Yes, exactly. When I was pushing, it was really hard. I'm not saying it was easy. “Oh, unmedicated in 20 minutes.” No. It was hard work. There were times when some doubts would creep in and I was like, “What if he's in the canal too long? Will he be okay?” It would be easy for those doubts to creep in, but my doctor and my doula were all saying the things that I needed to hear. “You're doing it. Your body knows what to do. Keep pushing this way. Push like you're going to poop.” They were saying all of the things to keep me focused. It would be so easy if you're not ready to give birth to a baby, that feeling would be very scary. You would feel very out of control. I could see how easy it would be for that to be very, very scary. Having the people there that knew what to say to me was very helpful. Meagan: Yeah. Absolutely. The team is really that powerful though. It really, really is. Sarah: Mhmm. Meagan: So get a team. If you're looking for a doula, we've got doulas on our website that are VBAC-trained and certified. Get a good provider who is supportive and loving and willing to just like Dr. Ryan, just yeah. “Let's do this. Let's do it.” Super supportive from the get-go. “Yeah, we have to have this consult, but I'm not not supporting you by sending you to this consult.” Sarah: Exactly. Yep. He's like, “This person knows that I do a lot of VBACs. They've been through this before.” Meagan: Yes. Yes. Sarah: Yeah. Meagan: Well, huge, huge congrats.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Real estate agent referrals can be a great source for leads in a property management business, but this strategy is often challenging and confusing for property management entrepreneurs. Join property management experts Jason Hull and Sarah Hull as they dive into the world of real estate agent referrals and why they often don't work for property management entrepreneurs. Learn how to shift the focus from seeking referrals to creating impactful introductions that connect you with the right clients. You'll Learn [02:24] The Problems with Trying to Get Referrals from Realtors [05:39] How to be Memorable to Your Clients [10:31] How Going Deeper can Land You More Deals [15:24] Challenges with Asking for Referrals [17:44] Don't Make Realtors Sell for You + Building Confidence Tweetables “We have maybe three or four different bodies or parts of ourselves. We have our intuitive, we have our mental, we have our emotional, and we have our physical.” “What I found was they'll have a logical mental memory of something, but a logical mental memory of something alone doesn't really stay there unless there's emotion connected to it.” “If they're not excited or feel something, why would they be motivated to give you referrals or even remember you or think about you?” “Depth is where the magic happens.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: They wake up every morning wanting something and it's not property management and it's not like helping their clients with property management that is not at the forefront of their mind, their heart and their desires. What do they want? They want money. They want more real estate deals.  [00:00:17] Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it you think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners and their businesses. [00:00:59] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, along with Sarah Hull, the co owner and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:20] My iPad dinged. I didn't turn on do not disturb when it started. I need my— I have to have a pre flight checklist like right there. Like I got to do it. So, it's on do not disturb now. By the way, I was talking with a client this week. And he said that he had some of my videos playing in the background and he forgot and he came back into the room and he heard this voice talking, and he's like, "why is Ed Norton talking in my office?" You know who Ed Norton is?  [00:01:55] Sarah: No.  [00:01:56] Jason: All right for those of you listening, you probably know he's an actor, very famous actor, but apparently I might sound like Ed Norton, so I don't know.  [00:02:05] Sarah: I'm one of those people, don't ask me like, "oh do you know like this?" Don't name drop with me, I don't know who they are. [00:02:10] Jason: She doesn't care.  [00:02:12] Sarah: I don't, especially if it's like a celebrity, now I really don't know.  [00:02:16] Jason: Yeah, she's like, they're not paying me. [00:02:19] Sarah: I have no idea who they are.  [00:02:20] Jason: Okay.  [00:02:20] Sarah: I don't know. Alright. I can maybe name like five celebrities.  [00:02:24] Jason: So our topic is, and we had a question asked about this in our Facebook group in the DoorGrow Club. So if you're interested in what I told him and the coaching that— I created a video and I put it into there, go check it out You can go to doorgrowclub.Com. But the topic was— He was basically frustrated about getting agent referrals. Like how do you make this work? So a lot of property managers think a great lead source would be getting referrals from real estate agents, but we found that it doesn't work very well if you're asking for referrals. And so I wanted to talk about why real estate agent referrals in property management don't work. And maybe if you can understand why it doesn't work, you might be interested in reaching out to DoorGrow and learning how we make this work really well. So what typically happens with people that go out and they think "I'm going to go get some real estate agents to give me referrals 'cause they might know some investors." [00:03:23] Sarah: Yeah. And I did it too. So like, I'm guilty as charged, but it was like, "Hey, so if you ever know anybody who needs property management, then just like, let me know, like, here's my card, here's my information. Like, just give me a call." [00:03:36] Jason: Yeah.  [00:03:36] Sarah: " Keep me in mind." It doesn't work.  [00:03:39] Jason: Or they'll go and like, "Hey, could I present to your office about property management?" and so they'll go do to the real estate office. They have their morning meeting, you know, in their office maybe once a week and they go present and they sit there and they pitch and talk about property management and how they're so good and all this stuff. And then at the end, they're sitting there insecure, wondering like, "Why was everybody just eating donuts and looking at their phone the whole time?" you know, and "nobody's coming up to me." And maybe one person says, "Hey, nice presentation," you know, and then you walk away with nothing, and they don't really care about you, right? So, why doesn't this work? Because a lot of people try this. Why aren't they getting tons of referrals from real estate agents? [00:04:22] Sarah: Well, there's a lot of different reasons. I think one of the big ones is we're just relying on people to remember you like "oh, hey if you need, you know If you come across somebody who needs property management, then you have to just remember that I do it and then hopefully You know, pass it on over to me." and they're not going to remember you unless there's a really good reason to there, especially if they don't see like a benefit in it for them. So if you're like, Oh yeah, who paints houses? It's like, now I have to go find people that paint houses. But very rarely do we have like this Rolodex in our head of, you know, people who do certain things. We do have connections to people who do things that we refer out to a lot. So for example, in real estate, you might know somebody that paints houses. You might know somebody that cleans. You might do, you know, know someone who does some like handyman work. Because if you've got a client who's buying a house and they're like, yeah, but I hate the color. It's like, "oh, don't worry. I'll just send you to John and he'll paint the whole thing for you, right?" But property management is a little bit different unless you're working with a lot of investors, then you probably just don't need to have a property manager, like in your Rolodex. So that's one of the first reasons why it doesn't work. [00:05:39] Jason: Okay. So, I like what you said about it not being memorable. So I'll talk about memory real quick. So we have, you could say that we have maybe three or four different bodies or parts of ourselves. We have our intuitive, we have our mental, we have our emotional, and we have our physical right? And I used to do, you know, some emotional processing work with people like I would help them work through emotional stuff. And what I found was they'll have a logical mental memory of something, but a logical mental memory of something alone doesn't, they don't retain it, or it doesn't really stay there unless there's emotion connected to it. And so. The example I like to share with people is I just asked him, what were you doing on the day of 9 11? And what was the weather like? And they can usually remember quite a bit in detail, even though it was quite long ago. And I say, what was the day like 2 days before? And they're like, "I have no idea," right? Because there's no emotion. Maybe if they were hypnotized, their logical brain could go, "yeah, I could, I remember this," but we don't really retain things well, if there is an emotion connected to it. So that's one of the reasons why they don't, they didn't feel anything in you talking to them. They don't, they're not excited. If they're not excited or feel something, why would they be motivated to give you referrals or even remember you or think about you? So the anchor that we've created with them is— And anchoring is a neurolinguistic programming tactic. You can do this very strategically and effectively. You can create anchors. You also can create emotional states in people by the way that you communicate and maybe even listen to this. You're like getting a little bit excited. You're feeling a little bit excited about getting agent referrals, but you still don't know how it works, right? So what I did is I just created a state in you just a little bit. All right. So, the reason I think agent referrals don't work is because real estate agents don't care about you and your business.  [00:07:39] Sarah: The other reason they don't care: why would they don't care about what somebody else is doing? They're not, you know walking around going. "Oh, how can I help you today? How can I help you today? And how can I help you?" They're like, "what am I doing? Like, what's on my plate today? What do I have to do?" And the sooner we realize, like, hey, people are just in their own little bubble. Like, they're worried about what is right in front of them. And like, what are the tasks that they have to focus on? And what's going on in their life? And what are they thinking? What are they feeling? They're not very often stepping outside of that to go like, "Oh what is he feeling today? And what is she feeling today? You know, what are you dealing with?" People are very concerned with, you know, what they've got going on and that's just, that's normal. So we need to kind of just understand that and then figure out, "well, okay, if that's the mindset and the headspace that people are in knowing that, what do we do differently?  [00:08:36] Jason: Yeah, I think we need to figure out like, what do they actually want?" They wake up every morning wanting something and it's not property management and it's not like helping their clients with property management that is not at the forefront of their mind, their heart and their desires. What do they want? They want money. They want more real estate deals. And so you have got to connect them getting more real estate deals to them connecting you to their investor clients. You've got to figure out how to make that connection. So we have this very well scripted out. We have our clients that are, let's talk about some results. Like some of our clients, one of our clients, one of our best success stories this year in less than a year has added 400 doors in less than a year without really focusing on paid advertising really at all, right? Contrast that. So they've broken the thousand door barrier. Another client came to us and they have I think 1300, 1700 doors and their BDM bought 322 leads from a lead service, like, I'll just say APM. They bought it from APM and they closed 18. They closed 18 in the last year of those. They got 18 doors in the last year. If you calculate what each of those probably costs and they have a full time BDM that they're paying to work this, they have a setter that they're paying. [00:09:56] Like this is expensive with the per deal acquisition costs must be ridiculous. If they spent all of that time and all of that money and all. You know, follow up and everything else doing the strategies that we teach a DoorGrow, they probably could have, they might've been able to double their portfolio over the last several years. They're just churning and burning through all this energy, time, focus, cash and effort. Like, it's super wasteful. So, one of our clients added 310 doors just using this strategy in a year from only five or six agents. So a couple of things, the reasons that agent referrals don't work, we've established, they don't care about you, they care about getting more deals. You've got to connect that you aren't making them feel something. They want to feel excited. They feel excited about getting more deals. You're creating a weak anchor. Other ways in which this isn't working is that. You're not really getting to know them well enough. There's not enough depth in the relationship or a connection. They're not going to connect you to somebody unless they feel really safe with you and they like you. And so a lot of people are trying to do this so superficially, like "let's go pitch to a whole group and maybe I'll magically get a bunch of leads that come in from them." There's no depth there. [00:11:14] There's a lot of width, right? You're hitting a lot of people, but depth is where the magic happens. This is probably the greatest secret I think that we teach in helping people grow and add doors rapidly is we just get them doing depth in a way that none of their competitors are doing it. Going deeper. That means more personal, more intimate, more one on one, like focusing on like in person or video, whatever's the deepest things that you can do, you're going to grow faster. So I think there's also a lack of depth is a challenge. I think also with why agent referrals don't work is because nobody comes up to them and says they need property management. This almost never happens. And if it does— [00:12:01] Sarah: If they do, they're not the ones you want to take on.  [00:12:03] Jason: Right.  [00:12:03] Sarah: Like, "Hey, I desperately need a property manager. Please help me. Like, I don't want that.  [00:12:08] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:09] Sarah: I want somebody who's we know without even asking any further questions, this is not going to be a great property to take on. [00:12:15] Jason: Yeah. Their hair has to be on fire or that like to call their agent up and say, "Hey, this rental property, it's a nightmare for me. I have this huge problem. I've got an eviction. I need to get done. It's a meth house. Like they, they burned down the back porch. Like it's leaking. Like they, like, they won't let us in. They've got a pit bull, right? Whatever, right? It's a nightmare." And for you to take it on, you would, it would probably— [00:12:42] Sarah: They're breeding dogs and the tenants were addicted to drugs. One's in rehab. One just died. Now we have I think there was like 12 dogs in the house. There were puppies. We had to do like a puppy rescue. [00:12:54] Jason: Oh gosh.  [00:12:55] Sarah: We've seen it all. Super fun as a property manager.  [00:12:58] Jason: Yeah. The things you property managers have seen, right?  [00:13:00] Sarah: It's like, "oh, hey, you know what? Jason does property management. Let me call Jason." And Jason was like, "I don't want that." I'm like, "why? No. Like, thanks for thinking of me, I guess." And now, that almost, like, shoots you in the foot even worse, because now it's like, "hey, well, now I have something to give you, and I gave it to you, and you don't even want it?" [00:13:19] Jason: Right.  [00:13:19] Sarah: So now we're like taking what could be a good relationship and kind of saying like, yeah, well, thanks for that lead, but it's garbage. Yeah. Thanks for giving me the shittiest thing you could possibly find.  [00:13:30] Jason: Yeah. The worst thing you could do is finally get them to give you a referral. You've been bugging them over and over again. They're like, "here, somebody came to me, here you go. And can you help my client out?" And you're like. " Do I have to? Like, I don't want to change somebody else's dirty diaper." Like you don't want to deal with this. You don't want to deal with this problem.  [00:13:48] Sarah: Right. And it's probably not gonna be profitable for you. It's probably not like if I think if a lot of property managers ran a profit and loss statement, or like a cost analysis on each individual door, which some of those low rent doors would not be profitable for you, right?  [00:14:05] Jason: You should know some of those owners.  [00:14:07] Sarah: These are part of, yeah, these are part of knowing your financials. We have a whole course in here about it, but there are certain data that you should just know in your business, you should know which doors, you know, are profitable, which doors maybe are not so profitable, which clients are and are not profitable. You should know all of that. But if you really start to dig into that, you're right. You're going to see very clearly like, Hey. This one doesn't quite measure up to, you know, what we're hoping for. But if you're just waiting for somebody to go, "Hey, I need a property manager. Like that's what we're getting. We're getting the, "Oh my God, I have this like awful situation and now I need somebody like that's what we're waiting to get." [00:14:50] Jason: Yeah. I mean to expect that a bunch of people are just going to walk up to a real estate agent and say, "Hey, I need a property manager. Who do you got that almost never ever happens. It's super rare. Now, some of you have gotten some referrals from agents and it might've been some sort of scenario like that. Like they came up to him and said, "Hey, they need a property manager," but it's probably super rare. So you're probably not getting, you know, 10, 20, 30 doors a month from this engine. The other challenge why agent referrals don't work is a lot of real estate agents don't even work with investors. Most real estate, 50 percent of real estate agents in the last year, the stat I heard was they didn't even do a single deal. [00:15:38] Sarah: Oh yeah. Yeah, I was talking with a client, I think yesterday with anyone with them and he's in the Miami market and like in his like city alone. I think there was something like 60, 000 agents, but out of those 60, 000 agents, like, you know, they're not all active and then out of the ones that are active, like, what are the ones that I've actually done a deal? What are the ones that actually do multiple deals? And then what are the ones that actually work with investors?  [00:16:04] Jason: The ones that actually work with investors must be a pretty small pool. Like maybe they'll do a deal occasionally, but how many agents are regularly working with investors? All the time, and they have a Rolodex and a pool of a bunch of investors that they have connections to not very many. So, our client that added 310 doors in a year, he did it from only 5 or 6 real estate agents he told me. That was it, but he said he tried calling a 1000 to find those 5 or 6. So that's a lot of deals from very few. He had to kiss a lot of frogs to find a few princesses. Right? Or princes, whatever. So, now, a lot of real estate agents are working with investors. So you need to find the ones that do. So this is another reason why referrals don't work. You go pitch to a office meeting. You might as well just like— well, I'm not going to give away all our strategy, but you might as well just ask, like how many of you work with investors? If no one's raising their hand, you might as well just end and say, "cool, if you find anybody, send them our way." And that's my time, right? You don't need to be wasting your time. Another reason referrals in general don't work is that you don't even go to the right audience. So if you're going to real estate agents that don't have investors, that's the wrong audience. Some go even worse than they go to a BNI group where there might be one real estate agent only, or they go to a chamber of commerce, or some sort of networking groups and they're like, "Hey, everybody, and nobody there really has rental properties. Maybe like, they're not even an investor or they don't have connections to investors. And so those kind of things can be a big time, suck or a waste of time when there's way more effective strategies. So now, another reason why referrals, agent referrals for property managers don't work is you are, if you're asking for referrals, which is the wrong thing to actually ask for, you're expecting them to sell for you. So, the idea of a referral, if we break this down, is somebody's going to come up to them. And say, "I have this problem. They're going to say, let me sell you on this idea of getting a property manager and then connect you to somebody." You're expecting them to sell for you. The way our clients are winning this game is we've set it up so that you get to sell. The client, our client gets to sell, not the real estate agent. So what we teach instead is to focus on getting introductions. So, so that is— and if you want to learn more about that, we recommend you get into our program because our clients are crushing it. We have scripts for this, all of this. All right. Any other things about this that are not why realtor referrals don't work for most people? [00:18:48] Sarah: I think that about covers it.  [00:18:50] Jason: I think if I were to add one more thing, it would be a lack of confidence. So a lot of property managers don't go into these situations knowing clearly how to get Referrals to come from them. They don't know how to create these relationships effectively. They don't know the language, the scripting to use. Oh, this is a big one that we missed. Another big reason is they're not going to refer to you if your business is a real estate brand. This makes them feel very unsafe. So this is why we rebrand a large percentage of our clients. If your brand has 'real estate' or 'realty,' or they know that you're a real estate agent, it's like all over the tin. They don't want to send people to you because they don't want to lose their clients and they're afraid of their clients being stolen by you. And everybody says, "Oh, well, I'll just promise I'll refer them back," but their clients might put pressure on you or know that you do real estate. You need to create a scenario in which they're going to feel safe connecting clients to you so that you look like property management, not real estate. So those are some of the big ones. So, I think that's basically it. I think that's pretty comprehensive. So realtor referrals for most people are not working. And if you'd like this to work, what should they do?  [00:20:09] Sarah: Well, you can talk with us. You can book a call. You can check us out online at doorgrow.Com. We also have a free Facebook group and you can check out our Facebook group. There's a lot of information that we have out there available for you guys, but check us out. And if you're like, "I just don't know." That's okay. Do some research like where I think our results speak for themselves.  [00:20:33] Jason: Yeah. Nobody has as many case studies as us. We put out 40 testimonials or case study videos in the last year. And these are just captured during our coaching calls. Our clients are crushing it. And nobody is moving forward or innovating as quickly as DoorGrow when it comes to coaching. So join our group coaching mastermind. You can get all the details by going to doorgrow.Com. There's a big pink button on the page say "you want to grow." Click on that. It'll give you the three steps that you need to take in order to potentially work with us. We don't just like work with everybody. We want to work with people that are willing to put in the effort, but we're actually going to reduce the amount of friction and effort and time that it takes for you to get business on by doing more effective strategies. So reach out to us at DoorGrow. So I think that's it. So until next time to our mutual growth, bye everyone. [00:21:27] You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:21:53] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In today's episode, we dive into the P of Passion with our guest, Sophie Lechner, founder of The MAGNET Model. Join us as we explore Sophie's passion, the impact of her passion project, the Marketing Mutiny, and how it all fits into the bigger picture of humane marketing. In this episode with Sophie, we talked about: Her community passion project called the Marketing Mutiny Why she created it and her goal with it What makes it different from an online summit How a passion project creates a sense of purpose for your business How to create your own passion project and much more -- Ep 172 transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. A book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. [00:02:27] Hello, and welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of. passion. So we're back at the first P of the humane marketing mandala with the seven Ps of humane marketing. If you're new here, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of humane marketing at humane. [00:02:55] marketing forward slash. One page, the number one and the word page. [00:03:00] And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So this is not a prescriptive, here are the things you need to do, uh, but more of the, well, here are some questions to, first of all, question all your assumptions around marketing, but then also help you reflect on these different piece for. [00:03:25] Your business. So today's guest is Sophie Leshner. Uh, after 25 years in corporate, Sophie became an entrepreneur and is now the founder of her second company, The Magnet Model. She helps mission driven entrepreneurs to find their audience on LinkedIn and engage with them so that they can spread the message and grow their business. [00:03:49] Over the last 20 years, her activity on LinkedIn has led to speaking engagements in the US and abroad. Podcast invitations, finding clients and JV partners, and [00:04:00] even an interview in Forbes. She created the magnet model to help entrepreneurs build the authentic relationships that will propel their mission forward. [00:04:09] Sophie works with clients one on one via courses, group programs, and workshops. This time I didn't invite Sophie to talk about LinkedIn. I invited her to talk about a passion project she calls the marketing mutiny, which as you'll find out is very much aligned with the humane marketing revolution. So we talked about her community passion project, uh, why she created it and her goal with it, what makes it different from an online summit, how a passion project creates a sense of purpose for your business, how to create your own. [00:04:48] Passion Project and so much more. So without further ado, let's welcome Sophie Lechner to the show. Hi Sophie. So good to have you on the Humane [00:05:00] Marketing Podcast. [00:05:01] Sophie: Hi, Sarah. I'm delighted to be here. [00:05:04] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. I just thought it would be such a great topic to talk to you in the, as you know, um, doing these conversations in the, in the piece of humane marketing. [00:05:16] And one of the first one is the passion P and I'm like, who do I know that is passionate and you and your passion project, uh, the marketing mutiny. Um, came to mind because I was just recently, recently participating or, or it kind of featured, I guess you would say. So, uh, I thought that makes a great conversations. [00:05:38] Uh, obviously it's very aligned with, uh, how we think here about, uh, marketing. So yeah. Why don't we get started with you kind of telling us about the marketing mutiny project, why you created it and what it is. [00:05:56] Sophie: Yeah. So I. Have been in the entrepreneurial world [00:06:00] for, what am I going to say, 11 years, and I have seen so many programs and so many tactics and so many, um, you know, shiny objects that come into the field of vision of new entrepreneurs. [00:06:16] And I have coached a lot of them, and I have seen the devastation, I want to say, that a lot of these marketing tactics, um, that it wreaks havoc with the entrepreneur's, um, life and ambition and, and, and their opportunity for growing because, you know, we come into the world of, Entrepreneurship with the passion we have for our, you know, our expertise, what it is we can help people with, but we don't know about marketing usually. [00:06:49] And so we start to sign up for all these different programs and then it gets overly complicated. It's the opposite of what you, you know, all of your marketing is about the [00:07:00] way you see, uh, um, entrepreneurship. So, um, I have seen in my coaching, a lot of entrepreneurs who are burnt out, discouraged, you know, don't understand what they need to do next. [00:07:15] And, and I just was getting more and more and more frustrated and then angry at all of this noise. And I thought there is another way of doing business, but a lot of people don't know it until they've gone through the whole process of getting burnt and, and, and sometimes they give up. And so I thought, well, what, you know, if you get angry enough, you get to a point where like, I got to do something about this and what can I do? [00:07:45] So I came across this kind of project and I thought, well, this is perfect. I will, I will, you know, get some people, invite them in, talk about it. And we'll just all together make as much noise as we [00:08:00] can about it. So we can crowd out all those aggressive marketers and. new entrepreneurs can hear about these humane ways of doing business. [00:08:12] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Obviously it reminds me of my own story, my own, uh, you know, burnout sitting on a therapist's chair and, and all of that. And it's, it's interesting because You have 11 years. I have almost 15 years. So I think we've kind of been exposed to the same, you know, gurus and marketers and all of that. [00:08:33] And it's just, yeah, seeing that. Overwhelmed seeing that frustration from, from maybe ourselves, but also from all these people that we're coaching is just like too much is too much. And so, yeah, you, you, you calling it a project, which I really like. And I think we can give a shout out to Ellie Trier who, um, has been on the [00:09:00] podcast before, right. [00:09:00] And as a common friend of ours and, and she's kind of really like. Started this maybe idea of, of instead of calling it a marketing campaign, maybe calling it a marketing or not even calling it a project, right? Let's call it a passionate project because, yeah, it is tied into passion and maybe like you said, anger, but I, you know, that's great passion if there's some really strong emotion related to it, like anger. [00:09:31] Um, And what I love about it is this community aspect to it, you, you called it the conversation. So tell us about this a bit more how you structured this and, you know, people are probably commonly used to an online summit. So maybe compare it to an online summit. [00:09:52] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah. So that's a good starting point to give people sort of a frame of reference for how it worked. [00:09:58] The commonalities is that [00:10:00] you're bringing. Um, specific people to speak about a topic and so you have an overarching topic and then you're bringing these people to, to speak and contribute, you know, their, their thoughts to it. The big difference I find, and I was always frustrated with summits where, you know, you'd watch a video, you get really excited and then. [00:10:21] And then what? Like, you want to talk to the person who spoke and you want to talk to other people about it and you've got nowhere to go. You're kind of [00:10:29] Sarah: siloed. [00:10:30] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah, most of the time it's just like you're just... absorbing and no way to go. So I think everything happens through conversations. That's my passion is conversations and connections between people. [00:10:43] So I said, okay, I want to bring these people, but I want to create it in a way that will, it will generate conversations. Cause it's not about, well, it is of course about the 10 minutes that I have invited people to speak, but it's about all the thoughts [00:11:00] that it generates in the entrepreneurs who. I want to have benefit from this. [00:11:05] So I created a container where people can have these conversations and it was so lovely to have people, you know, react and, um, be able to comment and ask each other questions. And if I do it in my business, what that looked like, you know, that's what I wanted and it's worked. It was great. [00:11:27] Sarah: Yeah. And I love that you said you created the container. [00:11:31] Um, I think That's really what I'm doing with the Humane Marketing Circle, which you're also part of. And I think It's really does. It took me a lot of time to realize that hosting the container is is a lot of value because we're so trained to think, Oh, I have to, you know, create all these videos and create all this content and, uh, you know, yeah, [00:12:00] record thousands of speakers, things like that. [00:12:03] We're actually. The value is in the container and you then kind of facilitating in this container and then just bringing in these little, you know, thoughtful reflections that people can have conversations around. Do you feel like that people got that value? They understood that? [00:12:25] Sophie: Yes. And I also think that there's room for me to do something more with it. [00:12:33] So I'm kind of in a transition phase because what happened was this was a project. It was for a month and I had 10 entrepreneurs and then that was going to be it. Right. And what actually happened is that I, I don't, I wasn't, I wasn't, I didn't know exactly what to expect. It was, it was a bit of an experiment, but I got a lot of interest and I got a lot of connections and I really enjoyed it. [00:12:57] And I think the people who were in it really enjoyed it. And [00:13:00] whenever I spoke about, Oh, I don't really want it to end. Everybody was like, no, keep it going. So I thought about, I had to change the format a little bit, but, um, it's now sort of an ongoing project. So I'm not doing them every other day, like during that month, cause that's just not sustainable, but I'm doing two a month. [00:13:22] And, um, [00:13:24] Sarah: Yeah, two, two speakers [00:13:26] Sophie: a month. Yes. So two new entrepreneurs who do marketing differently, uh, each month. And I had to streamline how it happens. And so I, I'm, I'm a little bit in the transition process right now. It's, you know, the momentum was not there anymore because I didn't look right away. So momentum is important as well when you're, you know, promoting something. [00:13:51] So, um, I think there is community and there's also room for changing and evolving how I can. nurture [00:14:00] that even better. Right. [00:14:01] Sarah: But, but I do feel like it's, it's become bigger than just a project for you to me. And by the way, we met through that. Right. And so obviously, yeah, our values are very much aligned. [00:14:16] And so it's not necessarily the outcomes maybe that you had sought, but then there's all these new people that you meet. And, and, um, to me, it's really nice. Like, Now this is part of your marketing. This is part of your worldview. Uh, Just like humane marketing is about the same ideas. Like let's do marketing differently, right? [00:14:39] And so marketing mutiny is now part of your worldview and you're a linkedin consultant in your you know day job And so people who will resonate with the marketing mutiny are gonna hire you Rather hire you than any other LinkedIn consultant because they resonate on that worldview level [00:15:00] and that's the beauty about this passion project. [00:15:03] I feel [00:15:04] Sophie: yeah, yeah. And you know, a lot of the values were already sort of what I was. Talking about and, and, and embodying in my content all the time. And so I think over time, I've been attracting these kinds of people who were attracted to this. Right. And then I think that's what caused marketing mutiny to be so popular, at least among my audience. [00:15:29] Um, and it kind of gave it a. A form, you know, a word, a name, a concept that people could really rally around. Before wasn't there was more, you know, amorphous. It was [00:15:43] Sarah: like abstract where now it's like, [00:15:46] Sophie: Oh, yes, this is the thing, you know, And I have to say one of the biggest benefits of the project that I did not expect. [00:15:55] And that I think is actually even better than anything I could have imagined [00:16:00] is. all the people that came out of the woodwork, so to speak, um, who I found out about, like you, for example, through the project. And so I realized as I was like not even halfway through that, you know, I had, I had Listed 10 and then as I was going through, I was like, Oh, but there's this person and that person and that person and I could actually have featured 20 or 30 and I was like, This is fantastic because that means because before it was, I was thinking, Okay, I have to make all the noise, you know, uh, to crowd out all those big marketing names. [00:16:38] And I was like, Okay, I'll do it. But you know, I'll do what I can. Now there's so many of us, we can really all get together. And, and be heard more, right, that was also, that was the biggest benefit. [00:16:54] Sarah: And maybe it's a good thing that, you know, you only, you only realized that they're [00:17:00] here because otherwise you would have been tempted to put everybody into the same month. [00:17:05] And then it would have been kind of like an overload again. And now you have all these people who are like. You know, you can really spread it out over, um, over time. So, so, so you said, okay, it's going to be an ongoing thing. So, so yeah. How do you see this evolving? [00:17:21] Sophie: You know, since I've started, I've, I've made, I have this list of people. [00:17:26] I'm actually now Booked, so to speak, till December, so whoever I invite next, which I'm at a point where I have to, like, withhold, I can't, like, invite someone and say, well, you'll be featured in January, you know, so it's a bit frustrating because I want more, but at the same time, there's a little bit, a little bit of, you know, behind the scenes work that needs to happen. [00:17:49] So, I've actually hired a VA part time to kind of help me with this, but it's not, you know, directly money generating. So I have to kind of, [00:18:00] you know, manage what's, what's bringing in. So anyway, um, [00:18:05] Sarah: No, I really like you address that point because I think That's the part of passion that we can easily kind of get overpassionate about. [00:18:15] And then, um, especially as, you know, givers, uh, in empaths, we're like, Oh, but this is so great. We want to do more. And then kind of go, uh, wait a bit. Um, you know, how do I, yeah. How do I manage in terms of The bills and now I actually need to hire somebody, you know, a VA to help me with it. So I'm actually putting money out of my pocket. [00:18:39] So it is a thing that you need to be realistic about and say, this is how much I can put in. And in a way, I don't know if you agree, but in a way you just kind of need to trust. That what you give in will come back many fold. [00:18:58] Sophie: Yeah, [00:19:00] exactly. Um, yes, in April, I had a absolute blast for all month, but you know, I didn't get much work done. [00:19:08] Right. Other than that, so clients and that was it. So it's finding that balance. You're absolutely right. On the, on the other hand, so like, yeah, I could do one a week, but it's just not the same. But on the other hand, like you said, there's, There's a momentum, there's conversations that happen. I mean, look at you and I. [00:19:29] So we met and I was like, wow, this is exactly what I'm talking about. So I, you know, signed up for your circle. I'm on your podcast. So there's like all these benefits through that more people would hear for about me and you know, maybe become clients. So it's a whole ecosystem and I think that's exactly what you teach with the seven Ps and Humane Marketing. [00:19:53] Um, So yeah, it's, you got to find that balance. [00:19:57] Sarah: It's trusting the invisible. It almost feels [00:20:00] like, you know, that is not often what we hear in marketing. It's more about the stats and numbers and conversions. And, and, and here we're talking about something intangible, intangible and kind of, yeah, invisible. [00:20:15] And, and yet we know it, it works. But while we're still in the moment, it's a bit, yeah, sometimes a bit scary to trust it. [00:20:26] Sophie: Yeah, a concrete example of that is that, you know, for the, um, for the integrity of the project, I wanted people to be able to sign up to get the emails to get, you know, the contributions, the videos, etc. [00:20:42] But I didn't want them to go on my regular list. Right. Yes. You know, that's all from marketing my, my, my offer. Right. Right. And so I, I, I set up this place separately on my system and they were tagged and they were [00:21:00] excluded from the other emails. And then I had a few people say, well, you know, you're saying that we're not going to receive your email. [00:21:05] What, what if we want to, so I added a line, like, you know, you're not on my main list, but if you want to, you know, and, um. And through that, and through being on LinkedIn, and through looking, you know, just finding out peripherally about me, a lot of the people did sign up for my list. So it's, it's interesting to see those dynamics, like people were just in there, in there for the marketing mutiny, but then they wanted to hear more about the rest of me and what I do. [00:21:36] So yeah, it ended up, you know, being good. A couple of people are, have big complaints. [00:21:42] Sarah: That's, that's so interesting. It's, it's almost like, As marketers, because I also see you as a humane marketer, right? We, we almost want to, especially because we're kind of going against the bro marketing, we're like, Oh, we gotta be super careful about what we're [00:22:00] doing. [00:22:00] And then we always almost take it to a level where people then go. But I wanted this. So please, you know, send me your emails. Um, yeah, I, I have added this, this line to my promotions, kind of the, the, the, the big programs, uh, where can unsubscribe also from the, the emails. Um, And thanks to Adam, who's in our, uh, our circle as well, who, who taught us how to do that. [00:22:27] And I wanted to, but I never figured it out. So now I, I know. And then I also have people, Oh, I accidentally pushed that link. And now can you please, I want to keep receiving your emails. I'm like, wow, that's unexpected. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really interesting how we have. We're kind of like walking on eggshells now because we're like, oh yeah, we definitely don't want to do the pro marketing thing. [00:22:54] Yeah. But then, yeah, we, we don't want to block people out either. So. [00:23:00] Yeah. [00:23:00] Sophie: Yeah. And it's interesting how it really, I find our kind of marketing really changes the relationship that we have with our readers, with our audience, you know, especially, but even just our audience, like there's something You know, like a human connection that I feel is not there when you're in some of these other people's lists. [00:23:22] it's just a transaction. It's just a piece of piece of paper. It's an email, but you know, it's concrete. It's not, there's no humanness in it. So yeah, [00:23:33] Sarah: Yeah, and I think it's the transparency. What I always say, humane marketing, how is it different? It is really about the transparency and explaining everything you do. [00:23:45] So by, you know, you saying you're not going to be added to my list. But if you want to, then, you know, you can do so here where until now, everything has been so kind of in the [00:24:00] shadow and, you know, kind of like shady and, and. That's what people, that's what has created this huge mistrust in marketing. It's like, Ooh, you know, what if I put my email in and then I'm going to get all of these things where here it's like, well, it's all out there. [00:24:17] This is what's going to happen. Um, so I feel like really this, this transparency is so key in, in my [00:24:25] Sophie: Absolutely. And I think a lot of it has to do with. letting people have their agency. And that was actually what one of the contributors in the April marketing mutiny, um, that was the, her value that she mentioned in her video was agency, your customer's agency. [00:24:43] And I think that's what we are robbed of by the bro marketers, bully marketers is, you know, like you, you, you sign up for something and you, you, you kind of feel like you're being sucked into something. You don't have full agency over what happens next. [00:25:00] Right. Um, I think that's one of the key elements that we, you know, um, uh, for our. [00:25:08] Our audience. [00:25:09] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's all about giving the power back. I really feel like the last 10 years we have disempowered our clients and giving the power back. Um, what I'd love us to, uh, I'd love you to share is kind of like if listeners are like, wow, that project sounds interesting. Um, if they wanted to run their own kind of community project, what would you tell them? [00:25:38] Uh, where should they start? Like, um, you know, what do they need to think about first? What would make a good topic? Maybe things [00:25:46] Sophie: like that. Yeah. So I think what's very important is to find a topic that You feel strongly about emotionally that others will [00:26:00] rally around so think of it as a movement, right? [00:26:03] And you can start it small. You don't have to be scared by the word movement, but that's what I feel. Marketing mutiny is right. It's it's this idea with all kinds of ramifications underneath, but it's an overarching concept that It's your standing for something or against something. Um, it's a big idea. [00:26:25] It's something people can rally around. That to me is the key thing for, uh, a project like this. Right. Um, it can also be, um, a topic where you want... to have people explore different, um, different aspects of, of, um, a topic. So I don't know, like, um, let's say burnout, you know, like, there's a lot of [00:27:00] Issues with burnout, all kinds of reasons why burnout happens, all kinds of therapies you can use, you know, there's like a lot of different avenues. [00:27:11] And so you can take a topic and then explore all the different ways of talking about it and how that can become bigger conversation. Yeah, that's what I would say. [00:27:24] Sarah: What I was thinking while you were talking is like, usually, you know, a marketer or a business coach would tell you to have like this goal for this project. [00:27:36] It's like, oh, you know, they have these beautiful conversations and then Sophie comes in and sells them this LinkedIn consulting package, but that's not how it went. Right. So how do we, it's really like this mindset shift is like, wait a minute, I'm just hosting conversations. And there's not like a funnel what they're going to do next. [00:27:57] And then they're going to, you know, go on this [00:28:00] webinar and buy this thing. So, yeah, tell us the reasoning behind that. [00:28:05] Sophie: Yeah, I, uh, I obviously subconsciously thought it was, uh, you know, um, uh, goes without saying but clearly, clearly it's not, I shouldn't think that. So yes, it has to be a topic that is. you know, related to what you do or your, or that reflects your worldview that impacts how you do business, but it should not be. [00:28:30] And some people have used these projects. to, you know, actually get leads and get them into a funnel and all of this. Um, but I think it is really critical. It's the same thing I say about how to use LinkedIn, but you know, that's another story, but it's critical to disassociate from the outcome. Just leave. [00:28:52] the outcome. Do it for the beauty of it. Do it for the conversations. Do it because it's good for [00:29:00] society and the world at large to have this conversation and to raise awareness of whatever the topic you've chosen. Um, so yeah, no, if you, if you do it with I mean, I'm, I'm, I have no doubt it would work in bringing you leads, you know, but that is not the reason you should be doing it. [00:29:25] You should do it or not for that reason. [00:29:27] Sarah: Right. I, I also think that, you know, like you even said, the clients will emerge out of it, um, but it's in that organic, humane way, uh, because they, they resonate with your worldview and with your passion so much. And you just happen to be very, very good at LinkedIn. [00:29:49] So it's kind of like, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm [00:29:53] Sophie: also that, yeah. It's a good, it's a good backdrop because, you know, when, when people You [00:30:00] know, hear about me through marketing mutiny and they realize, Oh, actually I do have this LinkedIn question problem, whatever. Um, they know already that the way I'm going to approach LinkedIn is not going to be sending a hundred DMS a day and, you know, sending spammy DMS. [00:30:19] I mean, they, they know that. So it's, it's exactly. [00:30:24] Sarah: Yeah, exactly. It's like part of your worldview. And that's by the way, why I transitioned out of LinkedIn, because I was like, you know, I could not deal with another, uh, you know, discovery call where people were asking me to sell a thousand leads or get them a thousand leads. [00:30:43] And I'm like, this is just not for me. And, and I see now, obviously that I transitioned out of it. That I should have led with humane marketing, just like you're doing. That's how you then get the right people. So, so yeah, totally, [00:31:00] totally makes sense. [00:31:01] Sophie: Yeah. When somebody comes to me saying, you know, can you, what's a good way of. [00:31:06] Phrasing my DM outreach. I'm like, Oh, wrong person to have a very short conversation. [00:31:17] Sarah: Yeah. Another, uh, kind of similar event type that I've just, um, seen, um, um, patchy don't know if you know, patchy, um, another common friend. Yeah. So she's doing some kind of round table, uh, event. And I really also resonated with that approach where it's, you know, still a conversation, but it's a roundtable, uh, conversation. [00:31:44] And I, yeah, I'm really looking forward to that as well. So I think, you know, it's, it's in the zeitgeist, it's like, well, people don't want to just be talked down to, or, or kind of like talked to and, and, um, they want to, they [00:32:00] want to be heard and seen and have conversations. Yeah. [00:32:03] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really breaking down the barriers, you know, like summits are, you know, you're over there in the summit, you know, video and I'm here in my office and that's it. [00:32:16] And, um, with these projects, it's like, oh, so how. I could see myself absorbing some of that information because I can have that back and forth. I can interact with the person presenting. I can talk with other people about how, what it would look like. And it makes it. It makes it all possible. It makes it all, you know, usable and [00:32:40] Sarah: it's approachable because you don't feel like, Oh, look at these, you know, gurus who are the summit speakers and they're so attached from everything. [00:32:50] Where now it's like, well, they're just part of the conversation. Yeah. Same human level. Yeah. [00:32:57] Sophie: I think people were surprised at first, they were like, [00:33:00] oh, so the person in the video is actually responding to me? [00:33:06] Sarah: They're so famous, they can't even respond to it. That's funny. Um, yeah, please do tell us where people can join the Marketing Mutiny now that it's an ongoing thing. I'm sure all the listeners are like, oh, tell us how. Yeah. [00:33:22] Sophie: Yeah. So. As I said, I was, you know, I'm transitioning to a new way of doing it because I didn't want to have to send all these emails. [00:33:31] And so I've streamlined it for myself and to be able to continue doing it. So what I've decided to do is to actually feature the entrepreneurs in my LinkedIn newsletter. The reason I did that is because I have quite a bit big, um, following there. And so those people will get an email with the newsletter. [00:33:54] So every other newsletter, it's kind of my going on goings on about [00:34:00] LinkedIn and every other newsletter is, um, a marketing entrepreneur being featured. So that's the way to, um, receive this information. And then the conversation takes place. in the comments to the newsletter, which are then, you know, um, all gathered in the LinkedIn group. [00:34:21] And that's, that's behind the scenes. If people want to have one place to find everything that's in the LinkedIn group. [00:34:27] Sarah: Wonderful. All right. So we'll link to the newsletter, uh, in that case in the show notes and, and people can find it there, or I guess otherwise they can also come to your website. So what's your website URL? [00:34:40] Sophie: Yes. My website is themagnetmodel. com and, uh, there's the second part of that link. If you want to go straight to all the marketing mutiny stuff is marketing mutiny ebook. So themagnetmodel. com slash marketing mutiny ebook. It's a bit long, but we'll put it in the [00:35:00] show, you put in the show notes, [00:35:01] Sarah: right? [00:35:01] Wonderful. Yeah. And I assume people can find you on LinkedIn because that's where you mostly hang out. That's probably [00:35:09] Sophie: the easiest of all. It's just find me there and you'll find all the, all the stuff, all the stuff about LinkedIn, but all the stuff about the marketing you can do [00:35:18] Sarah: there. Well, thank you so much for having this passion project conversation. [00:35:24] I, I really loved it and I love what you're doing and I love having you in the humane marketing circle. So thank you for that. Uh, I always have one last question that I ask all my guests and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:35:41] Sophie: I am grateful for all the wonderful people, including you, that I've discovered through Marketing Mutiny and for the joy of doing business in a way that is Aligned with what I love, aligned with what I am passionate about.[00:36:00] [00:36:00] Um, and this is the way to be an entrepreneur and every day is a joy. So that's what I'm grateful for. [00:36:07] Sarah: Thank you. Me too. Great hanging out with you. Thanks so much. Thanks [00:36:13] Sophie: for having me, Sarah. [00:36:16] Sarah: I hope you enjoyed this episode about the P of passion. So important to find this purpose in your business. Please join the marketing mutiny at marketing mutiny. [00:36:28] org. And you can also find out more about Sophie and her LinkedIn work at themagnetmodel. com where you'll also find a great quiz to find out what kind of LinkedIn user you are. Sophie is an active member of the Humane Marketing Circle. So if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the circle? [00:36:50] You can find out more about our community at humane. marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. [00:37:00] marketing forward slash H M 1 7 2. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing, like we're. [00:37:18] Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon![00:38:00]

Ever wondered what a Declaration of Independence document would look like for property management entrepreneurs? Jason did, so he fed ChatGBT his mission statement and core values. Join property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull as they go through The Property Management Declaration of Independence. You'll Learn [02:44] Article I: Liberation from Limiting Beliefs [09:40] Article II: Autonomy from Bad Clients [11:54] Article III: Emancipation from Inefficient Processes [13:12] Article IV: Freedom of Experimentation [20:26] Article V: Independence Through Education and Collaboration [29:01] Article VI: Allegiance to Our Core Values [31:36] Article VII: Pursuit of Holistic Success Tweetables “There's few things that will steal more of your sense of autonomy and freedom than bad clients.” “If you have limiting beliefs, one of the best ways to get liberated from it is to just be around somebody that doesn't hold those same limiting beliefs for you.” “If you say, "Oh, it won't work because of this and this and this." You are right.” “If you have a shitty mindset, just know it will hold you back and you will only accomplish what you believe you can accomplish.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: if you believe that you have the knowledge and the ability and the resources to be able to figure out how to make the shifts that you need to have the business that you want and run it the way that you want, then it's absolutely possible.  [00:00:16] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust, gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO along with Sarah, the COO of DoorGrow. I know, I need to rewrite this intro for when you're here, because sometimes you're here-- and now let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:24] Sarah: You stumble on that every time. So funny. I know. I have to like wing it. He's like in the middle of reading it. Okay. " And her over there." [00:01:33] Jason: Let's get into this. All right, so it is Independence Day. It is the 4th of July in which United States declared its independence and fought for freedom, right? So we'regoing to be talking about property management entrepreneurs declaring your independence. So, this is something that I think is important because you've heard me talk before about the four reasons: fulfillment, freedom, contribution, and support. Entrepreneurs, we want freedom. And so let's talk about a declaration of independence for property management entrepreneurs. So, I actually have been really having fun playing around with chat GPT and I gave it a bunch of info of how we kind of do things and our philosophy and I had it create a Declaration of Independence. So this should be interesting. So we can go through some of this and we can chat about some of these ideas. And does that sound good? All right.  [00:02:34] Sarah: Well, I guess so because that's what we're doing.  [00:02:36] Jason: Alright. This is what we're doing. She had no clue. She just walked in here. No, and I'm like, this is what we're talking about.  [00:02:42] Sarah: I just show up.  [00:02:44] Jason: She just shows up. Yeah. because she can do that. All right, cool. So, declaration of Independence for property management entrepreneurs. "In the spirit of entrepreneurial growth, the pursuit of freedom in the property management industry." We need to queue up like some patriotic music. [00:03:02] Maybe. I'm just kidding, Madi, maybe you'll add that.  [00:03:05] "We, the United Community of Property Management entrepreneurs solemnly declare our independence from the constraints, inefficiencies, and setbacks that have bound us for too long. We assert our dedication to a brighter, more prosperous, and thriving future." [00:03:20] "Article one, liberation from Limiting Beliefs." So one of the number one things before I read it. One of the number one things clients say that they get from us is mindset. It's just mindset shifts. because that changes everything of how they do things, how their business runs. All right, this is what it says.  [00:03:37] "We vow to liberate ourselves from self-limiting beliefs that hinder innovation and growth. We pledge to foster a growth mindset and no longer allow the words, 'I can't,' or 'it's not possible' to define our reality." So, what have you noticed about limiting beliefs with clients?  [00:03:55] Sarah: Well, I think whatever you think is possible is exactly what is possible. So if you think like, "oh, I can't do it that way," or "This won't work," or like, "oh, my team can't do this," or " I don't have the right tools," then you're absolutely right and it won't happen the way that you want it to or the way that it could. I think some of the biggest shifts I've seen in clients is when they open their mind to different possibilities and when they start to do things just a little differently.  [00:04:27] Jason: So most of our clients are pretty good at believing in us. I think we've gotten really good at convincing them through the sales process and once they get on board, we've got plenty, tons of case studies. But occasionally we get a client that comes in and they are skeptical about everything and maybe somehow they missed all the details during the onboarding and the sales process, and they don't believe. They have these limiting beliefs, "this stuff won't work." What do we notice in terms of results between those shitty clients and everyone else? [00:05:00] Sarah: Well, first, I don't think it's fair to call them shitty clients.  [00:05:03] Jason: Okay. Maybe we don't. Shitty mindset clients.  [00:05:05] Yeah. I think it's fair to say  [00:05:06] Sarah: like, "Hey, your mindset is shitty." Yeah. And I get that like my mindset used to be completely different. Totally different. Like I grew up in a place , where. Anybody that was making a million dollars a year, like I just didn't know it. Like, I was like, "oh, like, Hollywood. That's like what happens there, like when you're famous and you're like, this is just what happens out there. Or like, maybe big cities but not here. And because they didn't have any kind of example or anything tangible to say like, "Hey, they did it so I can do it." I just didn't believe that it was possible. And when I got out of that area, and now I'm in an area where it's very entrepreneurial based and business friendly and people just have a different kind of thought process around here, and we spend a lot of time with people who they're elevated in their thinking. And now I'm like, "yeah, it's a hundred percent possible." Absolutely possible. So I think first is if you have a shitty mindset, just know it will hold you back and you will only accomplish what you believe you can accomplish. So if you think, "oh yeah, none of this stuff is going to work for me," and we've heard it all, like, "oh, my market is different," or like, "my team won't do that," or like, "oh yeah, my clients will never go for that," or like, "my tenants are different. My properties are different." And like all of the reasons, what they're doing is they're like giving us all of the reasons why it's not going to work for them. And they're correct on every single reason. [00:06:39] If you say, "oh, it won't work because of this and this and this." You are right. What we need to do is like change your mindset to believe like, "Hey, this can work for me and it can work in my market and it can work with my team and it can work with my clients and it might mean that I need to make some shifts. It's not just going to be, "oh, I believe it and now it's true." we need to make a couple shifts and it can be true, but if you believe that you have the knowledge and the ability and the resources to be able to figure out how to make the shifts that you need to have the business that you want and run it the way that you want, then it's absolutely possible. [00:07:18] Jason: Okay, so some clients come to us. We have quite a few actually, that they don't believe in themselves. And one of the things-- this is a confession on my part-- one of the things that I failed with clients in the past, because I couldn't see this-- is that sometimes clients come to us and they're lacking hope. They don't have belief in themselves, and my mindset at the time was, "well just do the stuff and you'll see that it works". And the clients that would do it, they would get results and it would work, and some clients just wouldn't put in effort. They'd say they did, but they would blame us and like stuff like this, and they don't realize it takes like three months to get something really well dialed in. So they'd try it for like a couple days. Right. So I think one of the things that I've realized since from some of my coaches and mentors is that, we as coaches get to believe and provide hope and faith into our clients that are lacking it. [00:08:16] And so I think we're much better now at helping clients that lack that mindset and lack that belief and have limiting beliefs in themselves or even in like the strategies. If we give them enough belief, they still start to get results and that belief it rubs off on them. And so instead of blaming clients, I now take accountability more and say, "all right, I'm not giving them enough belief. I need to be more in their corner. I need to believe in them more." And I see them energetically change real time while on a Zoom call with them, like I just start feeding them belief like, "somebody else did this. You can do this too. They're not more special than you. They're not more charismatic. They're not better looking than you. They're not smarter than you. You know how to do property management. If they can do this stuff, you can do it too." I believe that I believe in them. And then they start to go, "wait, maybe he's right. Maybe I can do this." And then it starts to help their belief. [00:09:16] And so I think if you have limiting beliefs, one of the best ways to get liberated from it is to just be around somebody that doesn't hold those same limiting beliefs for you. They believe in you. They believe in you. Do you believe in me?  [00:09:27] Sarah: Yeah. Of course. I believe in you. [00:09:29] Jason: Sarah believes in me. I believe in her. Do you feel like I believe in you? Yeah. Yeah. So, and that creates momentum. That creates momentum. All right, let's go to the next one. Article two, autonomy from Bad Clients. "We assert our right to work with clients who respect and value our expertise. We shall not allow our business to be dominated by clients who undermine our values, ethics, or the standards of service we strive to provide." [00:09:58] So this goes along with our concept I, this of the cycle of suck and not taking on bad clients, which-- [00:10:04] Sarah: we should give this to our clients. And just like-- [00:10:06] Jason: have them sign it? Yeah.  [00:10:07] Sarah: This is your new declaration. We're doing it.  [00:10:10] Jason: ChatGPT is really good if you give it good data, like garbage in, garbage out. Right? I know. So, yeah, I gave it our whole client avatar document. I gave it our DoorGrowShow manifesto. I gave it our client-centric mission statement, and then they give it all that and this is what it came up with. So it's pretty cool. Pretty good. So yeah, I think this is involved with, our previous episodes where we talked about the cycle of suck or not taking on bad clients, but yeah, you deserve, you have the right to choose who you work with that value, your expertise. Why would you tolerate anything less? This is your business. You can build it however you want. You can build it full of a bunch of clients that don't value you, or you can build it full of clients that share your values, your ethics, your standards, want you to be able to do your best job and are willing to pay you for it. Anything else we should say about that?  [00:11:03] Sarah: I think we covered this a lot in our program, but what's really nice is to see when clients start to make that shift for themselves. Like we've had a few clients say like, and it was very clear to me that this is not the client that I wanted to work with. So like, sometimes they turn it down, sometimes they just know like, Hey, if I get the deal then, I'll consider taking it on if it seems to be a decent enough fit. But like, this is not my ideal client, so I'm really just not going to put a lot of time and energy into this because I can see like, this is just not what I'm looking for. [00:11:38] Jason: Autonomy from bad clients. I mean, really there's few things that will steal more of your sense of autonomy and freedom than bad clients. I mean, that's a real strong thief, so you deserve freedom from that. Declare your independence from bad clients.  [00:11:54] All right, article number three, emancipation from inefficient processes. "We declare to free ourselves from inefficient, archaic, and time consuming processes. We will actively seek, implement, and embrace technology and systems that streamline our operations, enhance productivity, and allow us to serve our clients better." [00:12:16] Sarah: Like that. These are these shifts. We got to make some shifts. If you're expecting your business to just change overnight and without really changing anything in it, then it's like, the definition of insanity. Like we're doing the same thing over and over, but we're expecting different results.  [00:12:35] Jason: Yeah. We've got a lot of software tools and tech that we use with clients to facilitate them having a greater sense of freedom and emancipation from inefficient processes. So yeah, technology can help with that. Okay.  [00:12:52] Sarah: Well, so can a great team though. Yes. Not everything needs to be technology because I've seen property management companies that they're like," we just rely on technology," and like humans are very rarely involved and it just doesn't work the way that they want it to work.  [00:13:07] Jason: Systems, right? Systems. Yeah. Building systems. Okay.  [00:13:12] Article four, Roman numeral iv. Okay. Freedom of Experimentation. "We recognize our freedom to experiment with new approaches and marketing strategies. We will not be shackled by "this is how it's always been done," shall embrace the diverse, evolving landscape of our industry." So I think innovation is a big part of what we focus on at DoorGrow. We're always like adding new things and coming up with new ideas and pulling in the best ideas from our clients that are also working towards innovating and making a difference. And I think innovation comes from. Innovation. And so as our clients are doing these new ideas and these new things, they're seeing little ways to improve. because that's what entrepreneurs do. Like, Hey, we could do this, we could do that. And so, and us sitting on top with a bird's eye view of all these clients that are doing all of these things that we've helped to bring to the industry or to innovate, they're also helping us to make this better for everybody else as well. [00:14:16] And so this innovation incubation system that we've created at DoorGrow is pretty powerful, I think. So, I mean, just some of the ideas that some of our clients have presented at some of our conferences have been pretty awesome, so, yeah. All right. Yeah. Anything else about that?  [00:14:32] Sarah: I think the only other thing I would add is like, the way that we implement things in our business. because we just move so fast. Yeah. Like Jason and I, we don't like to waste time. We don't, him and haw, we're not like, oh, is this the right decision? Like, what do we do? I don't know. Let's take like four months and figure it out. We see something, we make a change and we're like, let's just do it. And if it's the wrong thing, then we'll undo it because we'll see it very quickly. But we take action really quickly. We just went through our annual planning and from just one year. Our business is completely different. Like our model is different, our coaching is different, like what we offer is different. [00:15:10] Totally. Like literally every piece of it is completely different. It was like we took our old business model and we just blew it up and we were like, Hey, how can we make this like 20 times better? Yeah. And we did it. And we did it all in less than one year. So it was so funny because when we were going through, we start off with wins, we're like, Hey, what wins do we have from the last year? And it was like, we had so many wins. Like, it's like hard to even think like, Hey, remember a year ago when our business was like this? So what's nice about that is we get to pull up like what the business looked like last year in the system. We were like, oh yeah, we totally forgot because it was so long ago to us. We're like, oh God, I like totally forgot it used to be like that. We used to do things like this, and these are all of the things that we changed or improved or added in order to make things that much better. And I think just being able to like add a new piece or do things a little bit differently is something that sometimes doesn't feel super comfortable for people because they're so worried about like, is this the right decision? [00:16:14] And it might not be. It might not be the right decision, but the inaction will keep you like tethered to the ground for a really long time. So if we just worry all the time like, oh, I don't want to do it because I just don't know if it's the right thing, you are never going to know if it's the right thing. Unfortunately, like no one makes a crystal ball yet. We don't have like the answer to predict the future at this point in time. So sometimes you just have to make the leap and guess and know that if you make the leap and it's the wrong one, we can always change it because your business should be this like ever evolving, ever changing thing. It shouldn't be like this stagnant old like pond, with like murky water that never gets any movement.  [00:17:00] Jason: So, I think one of the things that has facilitated the speed and the innovation and the experimentation, which is the Article four that we're talking about, is DoorGrow OS, like having this really strong planning system, which you mentioned we just did annual, quarterly, monthly, and weekly planning. We did it all in a week. It was like planning week. So this planning system, really, and not all technology is software. Not all technology is software. This is a piece of technology, which there is a software aspect to it, but really the technology of this is this system that of planning that we're able to create this cadence of momentum in the business that gets everyone on the team moving it forward. [00:17:51] It's probably the most important system we have in our business. It creates our culture, it creates our business, it creates our results. It creates an immense amount of speed. No one can keep up with the level of changes like Sarah's saying, if you worked with DoorGrow in the past, like three years ago, or even one year ago. Even one year ago. [00:18:10] Sarah: If you were a client with us like one year ago, yeah, you have no, is not, you have no idea what DoorGrow is now because it's just so different.  [00:18:18] Jason: This is like a newer. Way more improved company and clients that worked with us maybe five years ago or maybe even 10 years ago. They have no clue what DoorGrow is even about or what we do anymore. It's even one year ago transformed so much one year in what we do. It's like, so it's so very different. Totally.  [00:18:36] Sarah: One year ago we had one program that was it. Like we had one program and we had like a baby scale program with like a little bit in it. But it's really flourished. So now we have like three different three different programs and like so many things that are available that we just didn't, we didn't have at all before.  [00:18:57] Jason: Now you said we don't have a crystal ball, but if there was something that was as close as you could get to a crystal ball, it would be having a planning system like DoorGrow OS because we are creating the future. We map it out and there's a super high likelihood we're going to achieve it because of how it's all broken down. And it creates predictable results. Like we consistently are able to scale our revenue, scale our programs, and get the things done that we want to do at a really high pace. And we're able to create predictable results we can, we create and see the future. A of entrepreneurs have a vision of the future and they try and throw that vision to their team, like a grenade with a pin pulled. And the team are like, what? What? Okay. Sure. And then they teach. A lot of entrepreneurs don't have a good system like this, and so they teach their team to lose. [00:19:44] They're like, Hey, we're going to hit this great goal this month, and then they don't. And they're teaching their team to be comfortable with losing, and they get more and more comfortable with failure. Our team's pretty comfortable with winning, right? Yeah. Like if we don't hit an objective, something major happened. Like painful. Yeah. Something major happened. Yeah. And so our team are used to winning and we win early. We set goals and we hit them usually early. Is the goal. DoorGrowOS is one of the systems we in help clients install. This planning system better than EOS, better than traction, better than whatever else you've, like, experimented with. You'll get far bigger results from your team and you'll get a lot more momentum and money.  [00:20:26] All right, so let's go to article number five. Article five. Independence through Education and Collaboration. This is something we are a big part of that we believe in.  [00:20:37] "We commit to continual learning and collaboration, understanding that our strength lies in the collective wisdom of our community. We pledge to share insights, strategies, and experiences with our fellow property management entrepreneurs for the greater good of the industry." [00:20:54] A lot of people are worried about the competition and they don't want to share their ideas. Yes. And how small is their thinking?  [00:21:01] Sarah: Oh yeah, I know. There was somebody just yesterday that said, "oh my God, like, this is such an amazing program. And like I, I've been part of multiple coaching programs on the real estate side and this blows all of those out of the water. Obviously we're focused on property management, but he's like, this blows all of this out of the water." And he is like, "I just hope that my competitors don't find out about this and start using you guys because that would be really bad for me." And like, I get it. I do, I understand it. Because-- [00:21:30] Jason: this is a new client. [00:21:32] Sarah: Yes. Yeah, he's newer. They'll figure it out. Yeah. He's newer. So I get it because I used to think that too, like, oh God. Like it's like that we have to have like this abundance mindset, like a, there's always enough to go around. And b, we say it like a rising tide raises all ships. So if you are like, oh, I can't, like, I can't tell my secrets to my competitors. [00:21:55] I must keep everything like you, I'm not telling you anything that you do. I, and I used to be, I used to be like that. So I, I do understand it because I used to be like, I'm not telling anybody what I do. Like you do what you do and I'm justgoing to do what I do, and you don't need to worry about what I'm doing over here. And I've gotten out of that just because. My mindset has changed. And I realize there's so much more than like our brains can even fathom. If you think, hey, like I can make, a hundred thousand dollars a year and this is what my business can look like, there's more to be had and there's always more like to go around. If you're like, Hey, I know I can do a hundred thousand. I feel like I'm in the mindset where I could do two 50 or 500 or a million dollars a year. I can have multiple locations. Like I can just keep acquiring businesses. I can grow and grow. with a client this week that has 1300 doors. Let's pause there for a second, because a lot of times, 1300 doors is really hard to even get to, and most property managers don't even reach that level. And he's at 1300 doors and he goes, I haven't even like made a dent. Like I haven't, I'm just a drop in the bucket. Of where I want to go and where I want to be. Why is that? Because his mindset is open. Like he's opened his mind to realize there is, there's more if we think of it like this, like, hey, You are just like this tiny little pinpoint on the map because when we expand out, it's like, here's me and my business. [00:23:26] But if we expand out, you are in an entire like city. We expand out more. You're in an entire state. We expand out more. You're in an entire country. We expand out more like we're in an entire planet. If we just keep going and going, like, the universe is just so infinite. And if you're, sometimes it's just so hard to conceptualize because your brain is like this is what I'm doing and like, this is what I can see, touch, and feel around me. [00:23:53] But if you, once you realize like, Hey, there is always, there's always more. You're not going to worry about what your competitors do. Not at all. You're not even going to be concerned. Like, I don't really care what Johnny's doing down the street. He could do all of the same things that I do, and I'm just not worried about it because I know that there's so much abundance to go around that I'm, I don't care what he is doing. [00:24:17] Jason: So when your vision is small, you see the competition. When your vision's bigger, you see a lot more opportunity. And we really try and push the idea mindset wise and with our clients and here on the podcast, collaboration over competition, right? When we get our clients collaborating, like we just talked about before, innovation starts to happen, the whole industry can move forward. [00:24:42] Two thirds are self-managing, there's like 70% or so that are self-managing. There's no scarcity in this industry. If you feel like there's scarcity. And it's because you're playing a game that is not very winnable. You're probably doing the wrong things to try and grow. If it feels scarce, get with us and we'll help you see bigger opportunities. [00:25:02] So once we get clients in our system and they're focused on adding doors, and they start adding doors, and they start to do this in the blue ocean, instead of doing it in the red, ugly bloody water through SEO or pay per click or content marketing or social media marketing or pay per lead services. They realize there's plenty of business. It's not hard to grow, and they become completely like, like, it's like not even paying attention to, or not even caring about their competition. Yeah. They're like, they're so busy adding doors and making money and trying to get their own stuff together to be able to handle the growth. [00:25:37] They're not even paying attention anymore to the competition.  [00:25:40] Sarah: Exactly. Like Mike with a 1300 doors seat, like no. Never ever at that, like at any point in our conversation did he say like, oh, but I'm like, I can't do this because this person. Never, like he, he's worried about what he's doing. He is like on this one track, and he is like, this is my mission and this is what I need to do and this is where I'm going. And I don't care about anything else. Like, I don't care about anything else around me when, like, they put blinders on the horse, right? We've got to put our blinders on and just run towards that goal as fast as we can. You don't care about what's going on over here or over here. You just get to the point where it's completely insignificant. [00:26:21] Even our smallest clients, once they get into momentum of growth and they see how easy growth can be, I mean, it takes work, but once they see that it's super doable and it's repeatable and they're adding doors like crazy, that goes away. Like I think there's always a competitive nature in our clients, and I like to leverage that in the beginning. So I, in some of my content in trainings, I'm like, Hey, if you want to crush your competition, do this or do it this way, or do this. And that brings out that competitive entrepreneurial side of themselves. But once they start getting into it, our challenge sometimes might be with some clients they like lose the drive because they start to see this is not so hard. [00:26:58] But hopefully they get inspired and excited to like, take things to the next level. Right. Okay.  [00:27:03] I don't think they so much lose drive. I think it's just that it's shifted. It's a like you versus me. Versus like, I'm just doing what I'm doing. It's me versus me now. And that, like, that's happened with me in my business a couple times where like I'm like, oh, it's me versus my competition. [00:27:21] Like it's me versus that guy down the street. It's me versus like every other like management company and my area. And it's not, it's only me versus me. I have to outdo what I did yesterday or last year or last month. Like it's it just changes because you start playing a game with yourself instead of trying to worry about like, I'm, I've got to beat you. [00:27:44] Jason: Well, your power and achievement. So this all makes a lot of sense, hearing how you think, but some of our clients are not, and like one of our clients like Mark and Brandon, they had gotten to a point, they'd been adding doors and then they got comfortable and they were like, and I think what happens is they had this big goal to like leave their day jobs and get a bunch of doors and they did that and then they were like, well, then they lost a little bit of steam. So I think what happens with a lot of entrepreneurs is we have this away motivator. Like we're trying to get away from something. We want to get away from a job we don't like, or we want to get away from scarcity or starving or whatever. Right? We have this, we're trying to run away from this saber tooth tiger that's chasing after us each month, and then we have to shift towards some sort of toward motivator. [00:28:31] So with them in my coaching call, I had to like help them identify what is? We talked about their why, which is their personal why, which is something that we get into deeply with clients and each of their, what they want. And how do we connect their why to the business now? Like what do they want more of or what do they want to move towards? And so that kind of lit them up again. And so we have to find that toward motivator. And we've gotten off track the education and collaboration, but, all right, but that's the idea. All right, so let's go to Article six vi. All right. Allegiance to our core values. "We affirm our allegiance to the core values that guide our business. We will strive to uphold integrity, transparency, excellence, and client centricity in all our operations, and we shall not waver in times of adversity." I love the shalls. All right, so we're big on core values. We help our clients define their core values. We even took a look at our individual values and then figured out what should they be for the business and took a fresh look. [00:29:41] And they were, we had a lot of alignment and we didn't really change much, I don't think we changed any, anything on the company core values.  [00:29:49] Sarah: No. We added like one, one sentence. Yeah. But I think mine, if I were to add one is just. Do whatever it takes. Right? Do whatever it takes. Like we have a do whatever it takes mindset and if that means you have to come out of your comfort zone, you come out of your comfort zone. That means you have to make phone calls? You make phone calls. Yeah. If that means you have to, do whatever. It's like ethically, of course. But if you have to do things that don't. Seem fun or like, these are not my normal job duties. [00:30:20] Well, that's okay. Like, we're going to, we're going to do it because that's what we need in the business.  [00:30:26] Jason: So I think it's important for property managers to be really clear on their values. So, so you, as an entrepreneur, if you're listening to this, you need to be very clear on your values. Not like 10 values or 20 values or infinite values. You need to figure out what are your, like top three maybe four values that if everybody on your team believed these, they would be great team members. They would fit you. And that's something we help clients work on. But I think it's super important to have values in the business because it that's the how you go about doing everything in the business. [00:31:02] And if you're worried about how your team members are going to do things, it's because they don't share your values. You can work all day on the whats. You can define every process and try to micromanage, but you cannot control how you need people that fit your culture. You cannot create that in them. You have to find the right people that have the right culture and the right values. Values come from mom and dad, God, religion, whatever, right? DNA, I don't know, genetics, but people have their values somewhat hardwired, and you're not going to really move the needle on their values. So you got to find people that fit them  [00:31:36] All right article, what are we up to? Six. Seven. Seven, okay. Article seven. All right. Pursuit of holistic success. [00:31:47] "We vow to pursue not just financial success. But the overall wellbeing and fulfillment in our personal and professional lives. We will commit to creating balance that nurtures our personal growth relationships and contributions to society." [00:32:03] All right. It's pretty good. So a holistic success. I mean, this really is I've never, I don't know, like. I used to like tag myself on Facebook when I would create a post, that'd say, holistic business coach or something like this. Because that's the idea. Holistic means it encompasses our personal life, our business, and that's why in our podcast intro it says " and our mission at DoorGrow is to transform property management, business owners and their businesses." So we have a strong holistic approach.  [00:32:34] Sarah: Yeah. For sure. I was it Ed Mylet that said it at Funnel Hacking Live last year? It might have been Ed Mylet. I'm going to have to look it up. Sorry Ed, if it was not you. So I think he said if the game for you is making money, if you're just in this to make money and that's all you care about, you are not going to make very much of it. You just won't because that's the only thing you're focused on and you don't care about anything else. But if instead, oh, it might have been Russell Brunson. Oh God, I owe one of them an apology.  [00:33:03] Jason: We heard it. We heard it at Funnel Hacking Live Conference. It was Funnel Hacking live at conference. So I can tell you that for sure. So, and it was either Ed Millet or Russell Brunson. I can tell you that too. They probably both said something similar.  [00:33:13] Sarah: So credit to both. But if you're only focused on making money, you're not going to make very much of it. You won't be very successful. However, if your focus is on helping people. Now you're going to be successful and you'll make a whole bunch of money. So if money is the thing that you're after, it's just going to feel like really hard. [00:33:34] It's going to be really, really draining for you. But if we're focused on like, Hey, how can I, primarily, first and foremost, how can I help people? That's the thing that's going to unlock all of the money for you.  [00:33:47] Jason: This is where your business mission becomes client-centric. This is where it becomes outward focused and our personal why should be outward focused as well, right? This is where we start to have that impact, but everybody wants to have some sort of different impact. We're all unique, so I think it's important to discover that. We talk about the four reasons, like moving towards more greater fulfillment, freedom, contribution, and support is why we have a business as motivators, and if you're moving towards that and you're committed to creating a balance in your business and personal life and personal growth and relationships and contributions to society, right, then you're going to have a much more profitable business. You're going to enjoy it more. Your team are going to be more inspired to work for you and be part of this vision and this mission. [00:34:39] So I like this article. It's a good one. That's the last one. So this ends this way. "Let this declaration serve as a compass that guides our actions, decisions, and collaborations with resolve and unity. Let us forge a path that transforms not just our own lives, but the entire property management industry for the betterment of the communities we serve. Signed your name and all fellow DoorGrow Hackers." All right. So I like that. Yeah, we're using that. That's pretty good. We're going to keep that. Maybe we'll post that somewhere. Yeah. All right. And that's basically it. Anything else we should add? I mean, we want, we all want more freedom and there's probably something that you feel like right now is holding you back. [00:35:22] You don't feel free. You wake up in the morning and maybe you don't feel like you are excited to go to work or excited to take that next phone call or excited to do property management. You may not feel a sense of freedom right now. You may not even think it's possible in that industry, so I promise you it is absolutely possible. We've helped lots of clients do this, and it can happen a lot faster than you realize as well. So you can have freedom and you can have freedom from bad clients. You can have freedom from bad deals. You can have freedom from bad phone calls. You can have freedom from bad team members. You can have freedom from all the bad stuff that you want to have freedom from. [00:36:02] So, all right, what should people do? Let's give them a call to action.  [00:36:07] Sarah: Well, I think the easiest thing to do is work with a great coach. Might be us, might be somebody else. I'm a bit biased.  [00:36:16] Jason: It should be us and you should reach out to DoorGrow. Go to DoorGrow.com and join our Facebook group, which you can get to at... [00:36:25] Sarah: I don't know.  [00:36:25] Jason: DoorGrowClub.com. doorgrowclub.com. Join our Facebook group community, and this will start getting you connected and indoctrinated. We're going to convince you to believe in yourself and we're going to convince you to also believe in DoorGrow. And then we're going to help you win through DoorGrow and we're going to change your life. This is what we do at DoorGrow. So, If you want some help. Otherwise, join our Facebook group and eventually reach out once you realize that you want our help. And until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.  [00:36:57] Jason Hull: You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:37:24] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

DoorGrow has changed a lot in the last few years. We've added tons of new features and perks for our clients as well as new coaches… including Sarah Hull, COO and property management growth coach. Join property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull to learn more about Sarah's role at DoorGrow, operations, and how you can scale your property management company. You'll Learn... [02:47] Sarah's Property Management Experience [05:19] Improving Operations and Cutting your Staffing Costs in Half [15:38] Why You Need an Operator in Your Business [22:02] Personality Types and Their Roles in a Business [27:24] The Clue that You Need a Better Team Tweetables “You can't build the right team around the wrong person.” “Here's the clue that you don't have the right team: your day-to-day is something you don't enjoy doing every day.” “Is the bruised ego worth a better, more profitable business that takes, a lot more off your plate and is less stressful?” “The most important person you'll ever hire in your business will be the operator.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: Here's the clue that you don't have the right team: your day to day is something you don't enjoy doing every day. If you're still wearing hats that you don't enjoy doing and you've built an entire team around you, and you're the wrong person in the roles that you're sitting in, then you've built the wrong team around you. You can't build the right team around the wrong person. [00:00:18] Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow hacker.  [00:00:36] DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate gateway to high trust, real estate deals, relationships, and residual income At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their business businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host along with Sarah here, property management growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull, the founder and CEO and the COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:22] All right, so I'm already messing up the intro as I'm reading it because I'm looking and seeing her here in the screen, and I find her highly distracting. So, we were talking before we talked last night, we're like, what are we going to talk about on the podcast? And and then this morning, I said, what are we going to talk about? She says, I don't know, we only talked for like five minutes about last night, and we didn't come to a conclusion. So, I said, let's talk about you. Can I intro you and brag about you first? Sure, go ahead. So I wanted, I thought we would talk about Sarah today because she's probably a lot more interesting certainly to look at than myself and maybe to listen to. So I thought we would talk about her. So, I'll tell you a little bit about Sarah. So what's really amazing about Sarah and what I really like about her is that her wrists are really tiny.  [00:02:10] Sarah: That's really, it is true. It's not not true.  [00:02:14] Jason: My hands are not enormous. Dude hands. I buy child bracelets for her. I'm just kidding. All right, so  [00:02:19] Sarah: I have a five inch wrist. So like I can take, I can actually wrap my my pinky and my thumbs and touch. That's about, and they overlap. So it's about this big.  [00:02:31] Jason: Oh yeah. I can do the pinky as well. That's, yeah. Very small.  [00:02:34] Sarah: I train a lot on the rest. Get them that way.  [00:02:37] Jason: I do actually like that. I think it's a cute trait. All right. But I'm joking. What, what I really want to say is, so what's interesting to the audience is that Sarah has managed her own property management business. She has exited that. She sold it. Great job, by the way. Mm-hmm. And she managed a decent amount. At that size, most property managers have a team, like a full team, like five to 10 people I've seen. And usually at the stage, these companies are very unprofitable. Like this is the worst profit margin stage they've been at in their business. And they get stuck. And I call this area the second sand trap. They can't afford to really like expand or do more marketing or, and they're just not able to take a lot out of the business and, and their profits are all getting eaten up by staffing costs. Now Sarah had one part-time person, boots on the ground part-time and managed her business remotely part-time. Part-time, yeah. She was bored. Very. And people are like, well, these must have been really nice properties. These were C class properties? Duplexes, small plexes. [00:03:52] Sarah: Yes. We had a good mix of single family, duplex, triplex, and then I think we had maybe two that were like 10 units, which was kind of big for my area, but  [00:04:03] Jason: Okay. Yeah. And so, what was your profit margin?  [00:04:08] Sarah: Over 60%. Okay. 60% was a not great amount.  [00:04:12] Jason: Okay, so a lot of you dream of that, right? And you think, how's that even possible? It's possible because one, Sarah is very efficient. She's a very good operator. That's why she is now the COO of DoorGrow. And everything in the business is better as a result of having her in the business. Everything's improved. But I wanted to qualify Sarah as a badass. Like she's really good at what she does, and she wasn't really connected to the property management industry. She just did what made sense to her. And she didn't really want to be talking to tenants and she didn't really want to be dealing with talking to the owners very often, and she just set up her business in a way that was very efficient. And so we'll be talking about that in the priorities training. So, Sarah also has come into DoorGrow and she runs all of our operations. She runs I everything that I've taught her that I like I've developed DoorGrow os and how we plan our cadence. She just knows it to the point where she can teach it. And she learned it all very quickly. And now she's the one that coaches clients how we did our hiring. She like has improved on that and built it out even more and teaches clients how we do hiring and so we help clients get all these systems in place to become more profitable and more efficient. Sarah does all that. So as an example, why don't you share the story of maybe Jade and Andrew. I think that's a great story. Because they were at a similar size of a business as you had had.  [00:05:46] Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Well, they had about 188 units and they had 11 team members total, like 11. So really, really overstaffed. And some of them were in the office and some of them were VAs and we just really had to like dive in because they said, well, like, what are they doing? And they kind of gave me like a surface answer. Like, oh, well this person does this and they do this. And I said, yeah, but like, what are they really doing? Because with 188 leases, like, let's just pretend that. We had all hundred and 88 due in the same month with, which isn't going to be the case. We're going to, spread that over the course of multiple months. But if we had all hundred 88, due even in one month, I still can't figure out what, two or three leasing agents are doing with 40 hours a week every single week. So we are just really going through and trying to figure out like, who's doing what. And sometimes I find that either no one's doing something or two people are doing something. And if two people are doing it, just know that it's not getting done.  [00:06:56] Jason: That's a 17 to one ratio. I just did the math. [00:06:58] So that's, that's for each, for every 17 doors, they have a team member.  [00:07:04] Sarah: It was really bad. So we just kind of went through with them and figured out like, what is everybody actually doing? What should everybody be doing? And then how many people is it really actually going to take? And they they had a lot of meetings and discussions with each other and then like we kind of met a couple times throughout this process and they came to the conclusion that they needed to let go of about half of their team. And they did. And then once they did that, all of a sudden they're like, Hey, we're like profitable and we're making money. But when we first started talking with them, they said like, actually, we're losing money every month. Like we can't pay ourselves. We can't take anything and we're losing money. Like this business is costing me money to run every single month. Yeah, little uncomfortable situation to be in, especially because property management isn't, it's not easy, it's not a cake walk. You're not, like doing nothing all day. So if you're in a business like this, And it is complicated and it is challenging. Then the least you should be able to do is like get yourself a decent profit margin so that you can make sure that you're paying yourself and that your business isn't struggling to keep up with. [00:08:14] Jason: Drive this home. Sarah did one call with them and the result of that one call was, what? What are all the results?  [00:08:21] Sarah: Well, on the one call, they realized, I have no idea what most of the people are actually doing. Like, they gave me the answer and I'm like, yeah, but how do you spend 40 hours a week doing that thing? [00:08:32] Yeah. And from there they realized like, we need to make major, major changes to our team. And most of these people are going to have to go. On the second call, that's when they actually decided to take action. Okay. And they got rid of, so. [00:08:47] Jason: The second call, which is she did this one call after that. [00:08:51] Mm-hmm. They fired half their team, half their team then, and as a result, their profit margin, which was not very good, which was negative, losing money, was then what? What did they get to? I didn't get their profit margin. Okay. It was significantly improved. Oh, no. Significantly improved.  [00:09:09] Sarah: I know they weren't losing money anymore. [00:09:10] Jason: Yeah. Yay. All right. We'll have to get some stats on that cause I want to brag during the priorities training about that. All right. So, Sarah has been able to dramatically improve our clients' businesses and lives. One of the things she's also helped a lot of clients with is completely restructuring their teams. Mm-hmm. They just did two of them last week. Okay. Why don't you explain Yeah. Kind of what you've done.  [00:09:37] Sarah: Mm-hmm. Well, all right, so one of them had about 360 doors and there were 1, 2, 3, 7 people on the team total. Which to some of you might sound like, yeah, that makes sense. And to me it's just, I'm like, there's too many people. And it was kind of like the same thing where everyone is saying like, oh, I'm so busy. I'm so busy, I'm so busy, and I'm looking at things going, I just don't understand what actually is is happening. Like, there's a lot of work that has to be done. It's like busy work. It's, it's like grunt work, but it's not, super helpful. It's just the things that are going to keep you afloat and that's like a bare minimum. So what we ended up doing is this client had one BDM, three property managers and then three assistants that were basically like assistant property managers. And we, he's like, I don't know if a lot of them are like good fits. [00:10:37] And I just, I, I really don't know what they're saying they're doing because they all tell me like, I'm so busy. I'm so busy, but what's actually happening? So when we kind of like dove into things, we realized like, you are overstaffed and very similar situation. He wasn't able to really take a lot out of the business because there was not a lot left. [00:10:57] Jason: Who is this? Kevin. Okay, so Kevin had three property managers. Mm-hmm. Each property manager and they were portfolio style. And each property manager had their own assistant. Yep. Because they were not, for some reason able to get done what they needed done. [00:11:13] And Kevin himself was having to do lots of things, put out lots of fires, and be involved in micromanaging everybody. And when I first shadowed, and--  [00:11:22] Sarah: he wasn't micromanaging anybody, there was nobody leading the team.  [00:11:25] Jason: Okay. Kevin wasn't leading the team then? Nope. So what, Kevin? No one was leading the team. [00:11:30] Sarah: Team was just kind of doing whatever they thought was the right thing to do.  [00:11:33] Jason: All right. Well, Kevin seemed pretty stressed out and what, yeah, and Kevin didn't have any personal support at all. Like nobody was helping Kevin with anything. He didn't even have his own assistant, but he got assistance for three people on the team that weren't very productive or efficient. So, what's the plan with Kevin? [00:11:53] Sarah: Yeah. So, half of those people are going too. So we decided the BDM is excellent, so we're going to keep the, the bdm. He is taking one of the people who was a property manager and she actually tests okay as a property manager on our assessment. But she tests better as an operator. She is like, is a better fit for kind of this operator position. So we're going to shift her into the operator role. We're going to keep one of the property managers to do all of everything. And then one VA who's going to be like an assistant property manager.  [00:12:29] Jason: Where'd the BDM come from? [00:12:30] Sarah: The BDM was already there. Oh, okay. He was one of the seven originals. Got it. So he had three property managers, three assistants, and one bdm. Those were the seven.  [00:12:39] Jason: Got it. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Who's the other one you said there were two? Josh. Josh? Yeah. What's the deal with Josh? [00:12:46] Sarah: Josh had about 300 doors and his whole team was kind of like a hodgepodge of people. Not that he was super overstaffed, but just people weren't in the right seats. And when you have the right people, but you're not putting them to the best like use, then you kind of still run into issues. And Josh, same thing, no operator. There was no operator on the team and largely he was kind of handling operations and he is like, I don't mind doing it. I like doing it, but I don't want to be the only one doing it, and I don't want it to always fall on me. Mm. So what we're doing with him is he had a VA that he had let go, like right in the middle of our talks. And he said, Hey, I'm hiring a new va. I said, great, let's like test the new VA to see if they're going to be a good fit. And then he decided, like we shifted his team around a couple of times and like through the assessments realized and he had talked with you. This was the one that we took who he thought was going to be the property manager and then put her in the BDM role instead. Mm-hmm. Because he is like, well, I don't know how to like, make everything work. So now he's he's going to have like a whole different team structure. Not that he had to let anybody go. He wasn't like crazy overstaffed. It's just he still wasn't super profitable because he didn't have the right people in the right spots. And he didn't have anyone doing the operations. Mm. You can get as big as you'd like, but if you don't have someone handling the operations, and this is that back end piece, this is not front end stuff, like everyone always, this is what we start with, is we start doing front end stuff. Because when you start your business, you are doing the front end stuff, you're doing the leasing, and you're doing the showings, and you're talking to tenants, and you're handling the maintenance.  [00:14:37] This is all the front end stuff. This is the stuff that absolutely must be done just to make sure that the business runs. When your business reaches a certain size, you now need to have someone doing the backend stuff. Mm-hmm. And if you're not having anyone doing like the backend stuff, which is like, hey, making sure that everyone on the team is following the same direction and everybody is contributing to the vision of the CEO and running things like your daily huddles and your strategic planning and doing hiring and firing and getting job descriptions, doing team reviews like. For those of you that are hearing all of this and you're going, blah, that sounds horrible, then it means you're probably not the operator. And at some point, if you're not an operator, it's okay. Jason's not an operator, like he doesn't like that. It's not his brain functions. So you need the counterpart whose brain does function like that, and that would be me. [00:15:29] Jason: I like to build out the systems and I must have been mis mixing up Josh's team. I think you did team with Kevin, so I think you did. Yeah, I remember Josh. So the most important person you'll ever hire in your business will be the operator. That's very true. And because visionary entrepreneurs do not like the details. I like building out the systems. I like creating DoorGrow, hiring and DoorGrow os and these systems. But I don't want to run them in my own business. I want someone else to run them because running those things is not as fun and it actually, the results are not as good because especially with planning, if I run all the planning, it's not as good. Bad, and so bad. [00:16:09] Sarah: There was one week where I couldn't run the planning meeting because I was on a flight and I said, can you just run the planning meeting? And he did it. And I came back and I was like, I don't know what happened in here, but this is bad.  [00:16:20] Jason: It was okay. I did just fine. It was bad. So the issue-- just fine. The issue is it's not fun for me to run the meetings, but also when it comes to like actual strategic planning, we as the visionary or as the main leader of the business, or even as the operator, we have to be the last to speak. Otherwise, we influence things. And if I run the meeting, it's really hard for me not to say certain things and not to steer things a certain way. [00:16:48] And so I don't get as valid of feedback from the team. I don't get as valid of information. So what happens is as visionaries, a lot of times we think we have all the best ideas. And it's not generally true, right? Our team members are closer and more connected to what's actually happening on the ground, and they can see things we can't see, and they have ideas that we don't have, and they can share these things with us, and we can get their buy-in into the plan if they help create it. [00:17:16] But when we are just top down pushing everything, because we think we're the visionary, and this is one reason I really don't like EOS. One of the big fundamental flaws in EOS is they intentionally overinflate the ego of the visionary. The visionary has all the best ideas and they're so important, and that feeds the ego and it helps them to sell integrators, which in their accountability chart, they place the visionary at the top, and then they have a line going down. And this is just a fancy name for a stupid org chart that doesn't make sense, but you have the visionary connected to the operator. Which they call an integrator. And the integrator then is connected to everyone else on the team. This is one of the most flawed structures I've ever seen, and nobody runs their business this way because integrators or operators are not the people that should be over sales and marketing generally. They're not the people that, because they have a very different personality type, they're opposite. And they want to conserve and they want to make sure money is handled well and they don't want to take risks and they don't want to, like, this is more stuff for maybe your head of sales and marketing or maybe your BDM or whoever you want to place in your executive team. They're really usually equals, but they have to report their stats. Everybody reports their stats to the operator. And so the challenge is we have to have a system in which the team can all give feedback and give information first, and it isn't top down. It's really bottom up. And this is how we designed DoorGrow Os and why people that come from the EOS system get a much bigger result and a bigger yield from their team and much more profitability than they were able to get under u s or traction or rocket fuel, right? [00:19:00] These are some of the things that Sarah's able to do with some of our clients. And I have to say, it's amazing to be able to have somebody that I can trust to not just understand all this stuff. Because she, she's super sharp but also to be able to teach it to clients and to be able to help clients work through all of this and trust that it's just going to be handled and that's really what we want in a great member of our team or in a business partner. [00:19:25] Or with anybody that we work with, we want people that we can trust to just handle stuff and to do it well. Sarah does it really well, so, what else should we say about you?  [00:19:36] Sarah: I think that's just how my brain works. Like every job that I've ever worked before I owned my own business, I would be there for a little bit and it was super clear to me like, Hey, if we make these changes or if we do these things differently, or if we just shift this a little bit, it's going to be better and here's how it's going to be better and why. [00:19:55] And it's so frustrating for me when you know, like I was at multiple insurance companies. Before like I kind of got into property management and I on all of them, I was like, oh, we could just do it like this. Well, we don't do it like that. I'm like, I know you don't do it like that, but you should do it like that and here's why. And when it's frustrating for me where I'm like, oh, you could just make these changes and you could do things like this. And this is just how I think my, my brain is just wired to work. because I can like look at the overall picture of things and I'm like, well, why do we do things like this? You could do it like this instead and we should change this and this should be different. And that's really good. This is really great. Keep this, but change this little thing. And then these are the results that you'll have. And at all of the insurance companies I had worked with prior, I had like made some suggestions and they're like, oh no, we're not going to do that. We can't do that, we can't do that. So I think looking back, it's funny for me because I'm like, oh well yeah, I was kind of, almost like destined to like get in and, and run my own business because then if I think, Hey, we should do things like this because of this, then I can just do them. I don't have to go and ask like, oh, hey, can I really think this would help your business? Like, we can do it. And they're like, no.  [00:21:08] So now, like, just looking back, I'm just able to kind of pick it apart and see things that sometimes other people don't see because you're just, you're too close to it. Mm. And, and it's it's personal for people too. They're like, oh, this is my business and I'm really proud of it and this, I worked so hard and I know, like, I know what goes into running a business. Like I know it, blood, sweat, and tears doesn't even begin to cover it. I understand that. And that being said, I think that's one of the reasons why you should be looking to improve it. So if you can make a few small changes, like your, your ego might have a little bit of a bruise, right? But is it worth the trade off? Like, is the bruised ego worth a better, more profitable business that takes, a lot more off your plate and is less stressful? So for sometimes, sometimes people are like, no. I don't want that. I just want to know that I have all the answers and I'm right all the time, and that's okay. [00:22:02] Jason: All right, so what's unique about Sarah, and some of you might identify with her a little bit. So in Myers-Brigg, she's probably an INTJ.  [00:22:13] Sarah: Well, not probably, I'm like the epitome of INTJ. [00:22:16] Jason: So INTJ. Is very intuitive. They are introverted. They're a thinker and they're judging. Now INTJs are because they're super intuitive. They're called the strategist because they're logical and they figure out solutions to things, but what's I think really in interesting, and I think there's women's intuition and she's very intuitive. She just knows things without knowing why it's true. Mm, yeah. Like she's like, there's a problem over here in the, in our business or there's a problem over here and I don't know why, but it, something's not right. So. And what's frustrating is I will say no. I don't see it. Like everything's fine. And she's always right. She loves when I say, you were right. She loves it a little too much by the way. But she's usually right. And so I've learned to trust her intuition tuition and sometimes I think our unconscious. Has a lot of information and can process a lot more than our conscious mind can and picks up on little details and things. Mm-hmm. And has worked some things out and just knows things and it bubbles up to the surface of our conscious mind and we're like, Hey, something's off here. And she gets these flashes of intuition that when there's like some sort of threat and things like this as well. So I've learned to trust your intuition because it's proven accurate multiple times. And I've always considered myself fairly intuitive in the business, but her intuition is kind of next level. And so I think being able to trust your gut and having a partner in the business or some, or an operator that you can trust, their gut can have a significant impact as well. [00:23:52] So I'm a bit opposite of her. I'm an ENTP. So we both are the intuitive, which is the n and we're both thinkers. Thinkers. But. I am a bit more extroverted probably. Even though I really feel like an introvert a lot of times, but I like need to be around some people occasionally. [00:24:12] Sarah: Well, I know, but you usually like will kind of, you'll you'll break in that arena before I do. You're like, we like I just want to get out of the house and be around people and I'm like, oh, I don't.  [00:24:22] Jason: Yeah. And then I'm definitely more, we think very differently. Like very differently. Mm-hmm. I'm perceiving and you're judging and perceiving means my desk is chaos right now. If you could see it. And it means I love pulling in ideas from lots of different places. I have a crazy variety of books on the bookshelf over here. I've like, I pull in things from a lot of places to formulate my thinking. Then I'm able to formulate some new ideas and I'm very creative that way. And that's part of, I think why we have such great IP at DoorGrow. I get a lot of coaching and a lot of input from different sources and we improve those ideas and we have, I think, the best ideas and innovate the quickest in the coaching space in this industry period, maybe out of a lot of coaching businesses. We consult and share ideas with other coaches and coaching businesses as well that we're in Masterminds with. I don't want to do all the implementation. I don't want to make sure everything gets done. And so I'll be like, Hey, here's this great idea, but Sarah also brings really great ideas to the table. She's like, Hey, I had this idea. And then she'll just rapidly implement, like she just gets it done. She's like, Hey, let's do this premium Mastermind event and have people, we'll rent out an Airbnb and we'll get people to go and we'll do this and it'll be awesome. And I'm like okay. And she just makes it happen. Sells all the tickets to it, gets everything organized. I just showed up and got to look cool and she made it all happen. [00:25:50] He's like, what are we doing at this event?  [00:25:52] I showed up, I'm like, so what are we doing?  [00:25:54] He's like, what are we even doing? I'm like, just-- [00:25:56] I'm like, okay, Sarah's leading this. So that was our last DoorGrow Live too. Like Mar-- Yes, that's true-- my assistant who did a lot of planning and Sarah like, handled some of the details and ideas and I was just like, all right, I'm just here. I'm the tech guy. [00:26:11] Sarah: Just when we call your name, get to the stage, just go up there.  [00:26:14] Jason: Yeah. When, when it's your turn, Jason, you go speak and talk about something and I did. So that's kind of how we work together. So, what else should we say about Sarah? She's still working on getting her last name changed because it was Hall and she's switching it to Hull. [00:26:31] Sarah: Well, right now, I really don't know what it is. Yeah. Truly. I don't know because the Social Security office has me as Hull.  [00:26:39] Jason: So you got to change. Yeah. To my last name.  [00:26:41] Sarah: Yeah. But the DMV is like, so super booked out.  [00:26:46] Jason: So not, not in Texas yet. Your license doesn't say it yet.  [00:26:50] Sarah: No, no. Not my license doesn't say it yet, but my social security card does. [00:26:56] Jason: So, and your social media, I think you've changed most of it. I changed it before. Long before this. Yeah. So, but Hall's her ex-husband's last name, so yeah. So I'm trying to like, he's trying to buy a vow. I'm trying to buy that vow. I think I paid for that vow. What's on your neck and on your finger. And I think I've, I think I've accomplished that. I don't know. I don't know. So, cool. And I don't know what else, what else should we say?  [00:27:24] So Sarah's one of the key coaches in our business here at DoorGrow. Our mission is to transform property management, business owners and their businesses, and she does that like, she helps to do that. She runs a lot of the group coaching calls when I'm focused on other things in the business, which is awesome that I have somebody I can trust to do that at a really high level and to do it really well and clients really appreciate her test.  [00:27:49] Sarah: When you're busy, I run the whole scale call. Yes, every single week. [00:27:54] Jason: Well, you do. You go beyond that. You also run some, some of the other calls that I-- Yeah, for sure. I used to run every call. You can run every call. So, yeah, which is awesome. All right, well I think, for those of you that you want to experience some of the magic of Sarah and improve your operations, you're struggling with things, your profit margin is not what you wish it would be, and you think you need more kPIs and micromanaging and to like squeeze more juice out of your team. That's probably, there might be a little bit of truth to that, but generally you'd probably need a better team or you need to optimize your team and that's one of the most profitable changes you should make first before you start messing with micromanagement, KPIs, more pressure, stuff like that. You need to make sure first you have the right team, and here's the clue that you don't have the right team: your day to day is something you don't enjoy doing every day. If you're still wearing hats that you don't enjoy doing and you've built an entire team around you, and you're the wrong person in the roles that you're sitting in, then you've built the wrong team around you. [00:29:05] It's pretty obvious if you look at it from that perspective. You can't build the right team around the wrong person. Can't build the right team around the wrong person. So, we can help you make sure first, who are you, we can help you figure that out, and what do you really enjoy? And we have processes for that. And then we can start to build the right team around you so that you are supported and you get to move closer and closer to having more fulfillment in your day-to-day. More freedom, more contribution, and more support. And then your team members will be able to have those four things and you'll get probably three times the output from those team members. And that's the biggest expense and that will give you the biggest profit in your business if you can get these systems in place that we can help install. With DoorGrow OS and DoorGrow hiring and DoorGrow Flow and DoorGrow, CRM and DoorGrow. What am I missing? Flow hiring, crm, you said all of software. Those are our software. Okay, cool. Which we call our super system. So we're going to be doing this event on the 22nd, talking about priorities and how to increase your profit margin and how to decrease operational costs. We hope to see you there and or watch the replay if you see this later. Make sure to reach out to DoorGrow if you would like to experience some Sarah Magic. And until next time to our mutual growth, everyone.  [00:30:26] Jason Hull: You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:30:53] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Today's episode features a special guest, Mark Schaefer, a globally-recognized keynote speaker, futurist, business consultant, and author. Mark and Sarah delve into the significance of community in today's world and its role in humane marketing. They explore the difference between a community and an audience, the importance of letting go of control as a community builder, the struggles of building a community, and the potential synergy between AI and human communities. They also discuss effective strategies for attracting new members, common mistakes made by community builders and how AI fits into the picture of community. As entrepreneurs, understanding the essence of community building and the benefits it offers can help us create meaningful connections and grow our businesses sustainably. He studied under Peter Drucker for three years and has advanced degrees in marketing and organizational development. Mark holds seven patents and is a faculty member of the graduate studies program at Rutgers University. His blog and podcast -- The Marketing Companion -- are at the top of the charts in the marketing field. Customized for every audience, Mark's inspiring and memorable programs specialize in marketing and strategies for digital marketing, social media, and personal branding. His clients range from successful start-ups to global brands such as Adidas, Johnson & Johnson, Dell, Pfizer, The U.S. Air Force, and the UK Government. Mark is the bestselling author of 10 path-finding books including the first book ever written on influence marketing. Mark's books are used as textbooks at more than 50 universities, have been translated into 15 languages, and can be found in more than 750 libraries worldwide. In this episode, Mark and I discuss: Why community is more important now then ever before The difference between a community and an audience The role of the ego for community builders The struggles of building a community AI and human communities: can they work together? And much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:30] Hello friends. Welcome back. We arrived once again at the seventh P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Today's conversation fits under the P of. Partnership. If you are a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan that comes with [00:03:00] the seven Ps of Humane marketing@humane.marketing slash one page. [00:03:06] The number one and the word page, and this truly is a completely different version of the seven Ps of marketing that starts with yourself. It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps. And so, like I said, today's. Conversation fits under the seventh p the P of partnership, and clearly that's a new P that I added. [00:03:32] It didn't exist in the original sixties version of the seven Ps of marketing. In today's episode, I'm joined by my colleague and fellow marketer, mark Schaffer. Mark is a returning guest as I've spoken to him twice before, since we're fellow introverts. And so he came once to speak on my. Previous podcasts, the one, two podcasts before. [00:03:58] So not the [00:04:00] gentle marketing podcasts, but the one before that, and where I was mainly talking to introverts. I'll dig out the episode. Link so you can go listen to that. So mark spoke to me about being an introvert in business and marketing, and then I had him come back also to talk about his book Marketing Rebellion which actually came out just before. [00:04:22] Weeks before marketing like we're human, which was then called the Gentle Marketing Revolution. So clearly we're kindred spirits, not just personality wise, but also otherwise how we think. Again, we didn't talk about this, but he came out with Marketing Rebellion and for me it was marketing Revolution. [00:04:45] So I'll tell you a bit more about Mark in just a moment, but. Since today's topic is all about community, I want to take a moment to tell you about our community, the Humane Marketing Circle, and what we've been up to in the last [00:05:00] few weeks and months. So the Humane Marketing Circle is a growing community for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs. [00:05:08] Here's the theme again, with the rebellion or the revolution. So we're a community for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who are ready for something different, something fresh and new, a new way of marketing, and a new way of business building, and also a new way of being in community. We now have. Four monthly gatherings, two meetups in which we discuss marketing, one 90 minute business or marketing related workshop with an expert or someone from the community. [00:05:40] So I always try to find experts within the community because we're all experts. And then every now and then if I don't find someone in the community, I'll go and look outside. We're also starting this month with an. Extra call we, that we call net weaving, so it's not networking, but [00:06:00] net weaving which we focus on, in which we focus on forming friendships between members that then lead to new business op. [00:06:08] Opportunities, collaborations, referrals, et cetera. But the main focus is to be human in these net weaving calls. Really just let go of the mask and show up as humans in our comfy clothes and on our couches and sofas, and just build friendships that then eventually lead to new business opportunities. [00:06:31] Here's how our community meetups work. So those are the two regular monthly meetings that we have. One of them I lead and one of them is led by one of our three community ambassadors. In the first half of the call, members bring their questions and we have a conversation about what. It works for us in marketing. [00:06:54] For example, one of the last calls we talked about AI and we share [00:07:00] tools and discussed benefits, dangers, overall ethical questions. We also, just on the last call, we talked about the gentle sales path and what members are doing in terms of bringing new people into their gentle sales paths. And so we take turns, we raise our hands and take turns and everybody. [00:07:19] Is really a leader in the, in their chair, and they get to learn from others and also share. And in the second half of the call, we go into breakout rooms and we have a more intimate conversation with other heart-centered entrepreneurs, which is super valuable because we don't often get this, you know, brainstorming and kind of feedback from other entrepreneurs. [00:07:46] And for example, this month our topic is the P of people. So I always bring a question for the breakout rooms and We discussed, for example a limiting belief that holds our people back. So [00:08:00] what's a limiting belief that holds our clients back? And then we took turns in sharing that in the small breakout room. [00:08:07] So that's the format. Of our meetups. Then we've also successfully transitioned to our new community platform on Kajabi, and I have to say I'm super pleased with it. It's such a lot of fun. We had our first live call directly. In our live room, in the community, so not on Zoom but directly within the Cajabi community, which makes it really safe and it feels like you're really unique to us. [00:08:37] So rather than being on Zoom, which we kind of all use, but it, it has become this tool where. We somehow we show up in our business mindset where if we're all of a sudden in our own platform and we have a call, and it just really felt like, oh, this is, this is our [00:09:00] home. We're hanging out in our home. [00:09:01] And that's what members also mentioned. There's still a few bugs that were working out, but All in all, we love this new community platform on Kajabi, and we're just truly embracing it. And then, as I said, Eddie, our community facilitator will lead his first NetWeaving call really a, a fun call to foster friendships between members that then lead to business opportunities. [00:09:27] I'm super excited to have him on board. It's interesting because Mark, you'll hear him say in. In our podcast episode, you'll hear him say that it's good to hire the youngest member you can find, or the, the youngest person you can find. And so that's exactly what I did with Eddie. He's a millennial probably even. [00:09:48] Younger than millennial. Millennials are now kind of like, oh, they're, you know, they aged as well. So he's, he's 27 and he just brings such a new perspective, such a [00:10:00] different way of being in community, which yeah, which we all love. So it's been great. So I created a, a special may coupon code for you if you'd like to join us now and save 15% on your monthly membership rate for as long as you stay. [00:10:16] So if you feel like now's the time, you can use the coupon code may gift. So, m. A Y G I F T on the checkout page by going to humane.marketing/circle. And this code is valid until May 31st, 2023. So with that, let's go back to our conversation with Mark. About communities. But first, let me tell you a bit about Mark. [00:10:46] So Mark Schaefer is a globally recognized keynote speaker, futurist, business consultant, and author. His clients range from successful startups to global brands such as Adidas, Johnson and Johnson, [00:11:00] Dell, Pfizer, the US Air Force, and the UK government. Mark is the bestselling author of 10 pathfinding books, including the first book ever written on influence marketing. [00:11:11] Mark's books are used as textbooks at more than 50 universities have been translated into 15 languages and can be found in more than 250 libraries worldwide. In today's episode we talked about why community is more important now than ever before. The difference between a community and an audience. [00:11:34] The role of the ego for community builders, the struggles of building a community, how hard it is really to get people together and host the space. And finally we also talk about AI and the role of AI in human communities and how they can work together, cuz that's actually the third part of Mark's new book, belonging to the Brand.[00:12:00] [00:12:00] Let's dive in with Mark. [00:12:34] Court. Good to see you, mark. I, I just said, let's just hit record because we're already sharing all, all this, this good stuff. So we are, we are excited to have you back on the show here. Really looking forward to talking to you about community. Your latest book has a lot of bookmarks already. [00:12:57] Definitely excited. Belonging to the [00:13:00] brand by community is the last great marketing strategy. So let's dive right into it. Most people on, on my show already know who you are. So I'm not gonna go into tell me who Mark Schaffer is and all of that stuff. Why is community so essential and why now? [00:13:18] Mark: I think that's, that's the question is, is, is why now? [00:13:22] Because community has, has always been essential. There's a great quote in the book. From a, there's a great marketer. He was with Coca-Cola, he was with Airbnb, Jonathan Milton Hall, and Jonathan said, look, when our ancestors were gathering around the fire, it, it wa it, it was to create this sense of belonging. [00:13:44] We've always longed to belong a lot of the social structures in our world today. You know, have, have just collapsed, especially here in America. A lot of the ways we used to gather and, and find that community are gone. A lot of that [00:14:00] was made a lot worse during the pandemic. Now I wanna go back a step and assure people this isn't like a touchy-feely, fluffy book about, you know, You know why we should all be in a community. [00:14:14] This is a business book with, I think, a very strong business case of why businesses should view community as part of their marketing strategy. Community isn't new from the first days of the internet. Businesses tried to create communities. Most of them failed because they were set out to like sell more stuff. [00:14:39] People don't really want to gather to buy more stuff, so they didn't really work. Most of the communities today, about 70% of the communities that actually work today for businesses are focused on transactions, customer self-service, which is fine, but the point of my book is that. [00:15:00] The, the purpose of branding is to create this emotional connection with our customers. [00:15:05] A feeling, a meaning that keeps them connected to us. And there's no more powerful way to do that than community. And I show a lot of data. I have a lot of case studies in the book that kind of prove this while we're focused on. You know, customer self-service, which is what most communities look at, look at today. [00:15:28] We're missing bigger opportunities like collaborate, collaboration, co-creation, customer advocacy, sharing information quickly. These are all massive benefits that are going away in other marketing channels. So number one. This is a business book about marketing that works. But I also point out this is marketing that heals, which is a unique aspect of this idea. [00:15:57] Mm-hmm. Because as we talked about, we've got [00:16:00] this mental health crisis going. Everywhere in the world. I don't know what it's like for you in Switzerland, but here it's in the news every day, especially with our young people today. And so we're longing to belong. We need to belong. And if businesses would look at really effective communities from the brand marketing lens, it not only works, but it can actually have a very positive impact on our customers and even the world. [00:16:31] Yeah. [00:16:32] Sarah: And it's so interesting because in our pre-recording talk, we, we discussed, You know, I, I mentioned that I was gonna actually go all in and create a live event, and, and I mentioned that I have a place in Sicily, and you were like, oh, I like Sicily. And it reminded me of one of the stories in your book, and I think it's in the beginning of the book, where you talk about this store, this shop that I think it was actually led by a Sicilian, or [00:17:00] originally Sicilians, right? [00:17:02] Yeah. Mm-hmm. That, and they still have this. Shop. Yeah. So tell us the story about, because it it, and I tell you what I told my husband and, and really that's still the feeling that we get in Sicily. Like it really is still like that. Yeah. So tell us that story. Well, we don't [00:17:19] Mark: have that. It's, we don't have that feeling in a, in America or most places, so, yeah. [00:17:23] So. You know, when when I was a little boy, it was always a special occasion when my grandfather brought something back from, he, he would call it the Italian store. And so I, I got to go back. This store has still been there since 1903. Three brothers. Came to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and they started making pasta, handmade pasta, and now they, it's still in the same family. [00:17:53] Mm-hmm. And the family members make a point to be there in the store, you know, interacting with [00:18:00] customers. Mm-hmm. If you, if there's any, they, they also do like a lot of Shipping and stuff of their specialty products. And if there's ever a problem, I mean, one of, one of those family members is paying attention to it. [00:18:12] You know themselves, well, I, I, I was away from this store for like 40 years, came back, visited Pittsburgh and I, I went to this, this area. Which used to be like a, a, just like a warehouse area, you know, really kind of busy and, you know, dirty Now it's a, it's a big tourist area. Mm-hmm. And the store is still there. [00:18:34] Same old wooden floors. This, all the signs are handwritten all over the stores and, And you know, I walk in and they've got this huge class case with 400 different kinds of cheese, just magnificent and smoked sausages and all these things that they're bringing in from Italy and, and you know, most, mostly Italy, but some other parts of the world. [00:18:58] And I go there and [00:19:00] the people at the counter. Know the customers and they're asking about their, their family and their husbands. And, and one lady was there and her husband had had a health problem and the lady said, well, we just got his favorite kind of cheese. Let me wrap that up. Take it home to him, you know, that maybe this will make him feel better. [00:19:20] And then the lady looked over to the corner and there's some, some of her friends sitting there, she went over to talk to them. And I just felt so sad. Because I've never experienced this. Hmm. And I'm just one generational away, right from this is how all business was done. And I just longed to, to, to walk in a place where people would know me and connect with me and to me. [00:19:49] Shopping is just anxiety. I, I, I don't even, I don't want to go anyplace. Right. You know, it's just a process for me of being overwhelmed and disappointed. So I'm, you know, that's [00:19:59] Sarah: [00:20:00] the introvert in us, right? We're [00:20:01] Mark: like, no, thanks. Yeah. You and I, you and I had a special show on that a few years ago. Yeah. Right. [00:20:06] Yeah. Yeah. After I shop, I just wanna go home and crawl under a blanket. Oh yeah. So so, so it, it's this idea of. We've always had this inside of us. This it's, it's in our D n A, it's this tribal sort of thing is on a deep psychological and sociological level. We have got to belong. And Sarah, this was one of the elements in my life that. [00:20:35] Provoked me that drove me to write this book. A few years ago, there was a headline in the New York Times that said The Loneliest Generation. Mm-hmm. And was referring to Gen Z. And it just, it just broke my heart how our children and these teenagers, they're just suffering. Suffering. They're so isolated and lonely and depressed. [00:20:59] And[00:21:00] as I said, look You know, this is a business book, but it's also a way I think we can at least. Be aware of these issues in our world and think about how this can have a positive impact on, on, you know, everybody today, not just young people. Young people. They're finding their own communities. I talk about this at the end of the book. [00:21:22] You know, they're, they're, they're moving into their own communities and to the extent that. Companies, and not just companies. Why I say companies. It could be a nonprofit, it could be a university, you know, it could be, you know, whatever. A, a un an insurance company, a symphony, whatever, a nonprofit the, I think the com, the, the organizations that are the most human, which I know is something close to your heart. [00:21:48] The companies and the organizations that are the most belonging. How, how would it look like in your. Company in your culture, in your marketing, if you thought we're gonna be [00:22:00] the most belonging company, it, it, it, it sort of, you know, presents an interesting idea of how you might approach marketing in a, in a different way. [00:22:11] Yeah, [00:22:11] Sarah: absolutely. So, and, and that story about this Italian shab, it's not just a beautiful story, but it's a, an excellent business case. Yeah. Cause. You know, how hard is it for a small shop like that to survive and them still existing after 40 years? Well, It has to have to do [00:22:30] Mark: something. Community. It's, it's been well, they've been there since 1903. [00:22:36] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Not just, I was Generat four. Yeah. It had been 40 years since I had been there. Right. Yeah. But it's it's the same store. Yeah. They, they, yeah. It's, it's bigger now, but yeah. It's the same, it's the same store. [00:22:50] Sarah: Yeah. No, absolutely. I, I have a feeling like reading the book and I so resonate with this. [00:22:58] Because just like [00:23:00] anything in marketing marketer, marketers have a tendency to grab the latest Conta concept. So let's just say, okay, mark Schaffer, yay. He writes about communities, right? Yeah. And six months later, that's the latest marketing thing, right? It's like, just like we did with authenticity, just like we did with vulnerability, marketers are really good at jumping on these words and then abusing the crap out of them. [00:23:30] Yeah. And so what I really liked about your book, and you mentioned it several times, is this concept of letting go of control that. You cannot control a community growth. You cannot Yeah. You know, somehow market or Yeah. Kind of manipulate a community. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, talk to us about that. [00:23:56] Mark: Well, that's probably something you've learned [00:24:00] firsthand in your community, but, you know, give you a story that so when I started my community, I have a community On Discord, which I didn't really wanna be on Discord, but my community said, we wanna be on Discord. [00:24:12] So I'm giving up control. So here we are in Discord, thought, well, this is a community. This is a community that, you know, I kind of brought these people together and they're interested in the future of marketing. So they're probably interested in things I'm talking about, like personal branding and being a professional speaker and writing books. [00:24:34] So I created. My own little chat rooms thinking, oh, this is where we're gonna have interesting dialogue about these subjects. Now those rooms are the emptiest rooms on the whole site because they, they didn't wanna go there. They took it in completely different direction. They said, look, we wanna talk about the metaverse, we wanna talk about web three. [00:24:58] We wanna talk about chat, [00:25:00] G P T and artificial intelligence, and. They were right. We need to be talking about those things, right? They've taken me a whole new direction. It's, but that community has become my university. I'm learning from them. Almost every blog, post, podcast or speech I give the, a lot of the information and stories are coming out of that community, right? [00:25:24] So they're keeping me relevant because they're spread out all over the world. You know, teaching me what they're seeing is, is, is going on out there. [00:25:33] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, so that, that letting go of the control and, and almost like letting the community taking over that is Yeah. That is so big and it's, it's so, I think against what a lot of us business owners or marketers have learned where we, and I, and I also. [00:25:54] Remember you or mentioning that a community is definitely not an audience, [00:26:00] right? That distinction is so essential and yet, We see probably 90% of the people using the words interchangeably. They call a community, they, they say they have a community where they actually just have a free Facebook group where they sell their [00:26:16] Mark: programs. [00:26:17] Yeah. And I think the distinction is important because that's where the real power is. Right? You know, when people have an audience, And they say, this is my community. I say, well, the do do the people in the AU in your audience, do they know each other? Do they connect to each other? And the answer is no, cuz they're an audience. [00:26:37] Now I'm not. I mean, an audience is really important. I mean, I have an audience, right? And those are the people who buy things from me. So, I mean, audience is great, but. When people know each other and they build relationships, connections, and they collaborate and they do things together in new ways, that goodwill and [00:27:00] that emotion transfers to the brand. [00:27:04] This is one of the profound lessons I think in the book. I mean, I did a deep dig, deep dive on a lot of the psychology of community, the sociology of community, and almost suggests that, and this is hence at your point, that leadership in a community is like upside down compared to traditional marketing. [00:27:27] Yeah. You know leadership. And so instead of building the connection between the brand, And our audience. It's about building the connection between the audience members to create this community, because if you do that, it creates this layer of emotional switching costs. Mm-hmm. Like, these are my friends, this is my community. [00:27:49] I can never leave this brand cuz I never wanna leave this community. Right. So it, it, it, there's a lot of. Non-intuitive things about [00:28:00] community success That, that I'm, I'm learning firsthand. Yeah. [00:28:03] Sarah: And, and that's where I think you brought in the live event. And that's when I'm like, I. I'm a hundred percent convinced because I've been, you know, I had my community probably two, three years now, and I, what I've been learning is that there's a lot of unlearning first of all for the leader of the community, but then also for members of the community because I feel like as marketers we have kind of brainwashed. [00:28:34] Clients and customers into these membership site type things where people just come to consume content rather than to actually show up and Yeah. You know, express themselves and say, this is what works for me, what works for you, and collaborating, and so I've been kind of like, Yeah. Empower, giving power back to the people and saying, no, I [00:29:00] want you to show [00:29:01] Mark: up. [00:29:01] Yeah, that's a, that's, that's a really, really good point. You know, I, I had this conversation with a friend of mine last week. He has, has a community, but it's really an audience. Because it's, it's the, you know, he's, he's like creating content and it's premium content that you only get if you're in this community. [00:29:24] Right. And it, it, there's not really a lot of focus. I mean, that's a [00:29:28] Sarah: membership site. Yeah, it is. I think that type, yeah, that those three words, they're kind of like Yeah. Creating, yeah. [00:29:35] Mark: It's a membership site. Mm-hmm. You know, in my community. It is, it's free, it's open it, you know, it's, it's, it's like, you know, everybody is welcome to, to come in and give it a try. [00:29:47] You know, I, I do have like a, like a v i p section where it's like a small amount of money every year. And then, you know, we get, we have meetings with like legendary, legendary marketing people [00:30:00] and And that's a lot of fun. But I mean, at least 90% of the community is just there. It's free and we're just helping each other and it's very generous and very kind. [00:30:10] And you know, I made so many new friends and no many new connections. And of course, as I said, it's just become my number one place to, to learn about what's, what's new. I mean, I was really early. In the in the AI generated content around art, like mid journey and I mean, it was like people in my community said, have you seen this? [00:30:35] Get a membership, try this thing. And it was just like, oh my gosh. I mean this, like my, my jaw just dropped on the table. It was so unbelievable. And that, you know, I was early on chat G p t again because my community's like pulling me into these things, right? And, and, and I think that's a big part of being relevant today, not necessarily being an expert. [00:30:58] In everything, [00:31:00] but knowing enough to at least ask the right questions about everything. Just, you know, dabbling in the metaverse and web three and all these new things, and that the community's helping me remain relevant. What, what a gift is that? Now think about what that means to a big brand. Yeah. Is, is, is, you know Sarah, I saw this amazing quote. [00:31:21] Oh, I, I, I got hung on this. It was probably four years ago now. There's a quote by the C m O of Pepsi and he said the days of the big brand are over the big brand campaign. Campfires. Bonfires are over. And today it's about. Being relevant in cultural moments. And I thought that is fascinating, but what does that really mean? [00:31:54] How does that show up? And if you watch what some of these brands are doing now, they like, if there's like a [00:32:00] big award show like the Grammys or the Emmys or the Oscars and or, or there's like big festivals. One of the things Pepsi did for example, was there was some big like cultural festival. In, in New York and they created a soft drink, especially for this festival. [00:32:22] It tasted like zindel or something, right? I mean, I can't imagine how bizarre that would be, but it was a in a pink can. But you know, if, if you play this out, how can you be? What would be the platform to be relevant in these cultural moments? What would be more powerful than a community that's taking you into these moments? [00:32:45] Mm-hmm. Exposing you to these moments. Yeah. And, and I, I, so I think big company, small company solopreneur it, it, it, it's something that must be considered really for any kind of business right now. [00:33:00] Yeah, [00:33:00] Sarah: I absolutely agree. And, and, and I think one y you did say, okay, this is a business book, but business is so human today to come back to my favorite topic and, and yeah. [00:33:12] And so those are those humanizing moments, right? It's like, we're not, and that's why the. Let me build a community so that I can sell more stuff. Doesn't work, because that's not why humans gather. They don't, right. They don't come into a community to buy more. And so I think brands need to be super careful with that, you know, thing they, they can go completely wrong if they start selling into the community. [00:33:41] Mark: Yeah. That, that's the number one. Right. Reason why communities. Fail Yeah. Is because they say, okay, well, we'll start a community, but you know, this is gonna help us meet our, our quarterly sales numbers. And, you know, a company has to do that. I've, I've been in that world for a long time, but that's, that's gonna [00:34:00] drive your community away. [00:34:01] And it, you know, I, I think one of the gifts of this book, I hope people see this as a gift, is in chapter 10, I look at measurement. In an entirely new way. I mean, community and measurement. This has been just a, a thorn in the side of communities forever and. I give a case study in the book about these big sports drink brands, Gatorade versus Powerade, and I show the power of brand marketing where you sponsor events and you're, you know, you get connected to cultural moments and you know, maybe you sponsor the World Cup. [00:34:44] Well, okay, so if you sponsor the World Cup and your brand is everywhere. Does that sell more products? Yes. Can we measure that? No, [00:35:00] probably not. So I make this distinction between brand marketing and direct marketing. And what I'm showing is that almost every community is trying to manage it and measure it like direct marketing. [00:35:16] But if you do that, you, you miss the whole thing about trust. And loyalty and emotion and love and co-creation, collaboration and advocacy, you're missing the main event. Mm-hmm. And so you, if, if, if the community reports to the marketing department, which understands what brand marketing is, we kind of take that pressure off and, and we look at other measures. [00:35:43] That may not necessarily be directly tied to the bottom line, but we know it's a leading indicator of, of the bottom line. One of the biggest communities in the whole world is Sephora. Now Sephora is a cosmetics company. Do you have [00:36:00] Sephora over there? And We do. Yeah. They're, they're, they're based in Europe, I think. [00:36:03] Yeah. And they're French, right? I think maybe French. Yeah. They've got brick and mortar stores. In, in many, many countries, every major city in America has just a forest store, but 80% of their sales come from their online community. And their number one measure in their community is engagement because they see engagement as the leading indicator to to sales. [00:36:34] Mm-hmm. So it's, again, this goes back to what we were talking about earlier. It's like, This turns the traditional marketing mindset kind of upside down. But this, I think this is where the world needs to go. I think 20 years from now, maybe 30 years from now, we're, we're gonna, the, the young people leading businesses today are already moving this direction. [00:36:59] They're [00:37:00] already moving to community. 85% of startups today are leading with community as they're. Main marketing idea. 30 years from now, the world's gonna look back at the period we're in now. And we're gonna say, remember those days we used to spam people. We used to interrupt people, intercept people. We used to bother them. [00:37:22] We used to fill their mailboxes with all this direct mail that wasn't even relevant to them anymore. What were we thinking? Okay. I'm so happy we read Mark's book 30 years ago. [00:37:36] Sarah: No, I, I have to say, like, I, I really feel like you pivoted or you kind of. Created this new path with Marketing Rebellion already. [00:37:46] Yes, exactly. Right. And now this is like, you know, for whoever is ready for the next. Paradigm, basically. I'm, I'm glad you picked up. I'm so glad to have you kind of, you know, forged this [00:38:00] path for people like myself, because that is the, I wanna cry, like, this is the biggest pushback I always got is like, you can't measure it. [00:38:08] You can't measure humane marketing. Yeah. And I felt like saying, so what? You know? Yeah. Right. This is the only way we gotta go. Yeah. And, and so now to say, well then if you don't listen to me, listen to Mark [00:38:21] Mark: Schaffer. Right? Yeah. I mean, it is, it is. And look, I'm like, I'm a measurement junkie. You know, I've, a lot of people don't know this about me, but I actually have the, the equivalent of a master's degree in statistics. [00:38:33] So, I mean, I'm all about the numbers. But you know, there was a very powerful quote from Marketing Rebellion that I actually repeated in, in the new book, and it's this idea. That you can either keep, keep pace with the, with the pulse of our culture, or you can measure, you probably can't do both. I mean, I, I, I, I think Sarah, there, there's [00:39:00] no business leader. [00:39:01] Anywhere right now that can't be feeling a little overwhelmed by the by the amount and velocity of change. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, you, you've got to, to, you've gotta make that leap at some point to say, We've gotta go to market a different way. We can't keep holding. It's, it's a sickness. It literally is a sickness that we're holding on to this scaffolding of the old ways, you know, our, our relationships with ad agencies and producing, you know, glamorous television commercials. [00:39:35] Cause you know, cuz we can win an award for this and, and, and, and it, it's hard. To change our, our, our, the culture of our company to start embracing these new things. I think every company today should be taking at least 10% of their marketing budget and experimenting maybe on things you can't measure. [00:39:58] You have no, have no hope of [00:40:00] measuring to move more toward this human-centered. View of, of marketing. Because just because you can't measure it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. I mean, there's a lot of things we can't measure. We can't measure, you know, wind, we can't, me, well, we can measure, we can't measure love, right? [00:40:19] We can't measure love. We can't measure. How good we feel on a, on a sunny day. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't go to the beach, doesn't mean we shouldn't fall in love. We need to take advantage of those things. And there are many things in marketing today, you know, we are in the early days, in the early stages, and especially young people today have entirely different expectations and of, of what they want from businesses and what they want from marketing. [00:40:47] And we've gotta start moving that way now. Gen Z. They're not babies. We just had the first member of Gen Z become elected to the United States Congress. Mm-hmm. [00:41:00] They're consumers, right? In the next five years, they're gonna be our leaders, right? And our procurement managers. So, and, and, you know, great entrepreneurs. [00:41:10] So, I mean, we need, we need to wake up. We really do. Yeah. We need to get rid of this, these sick, these sick, antiquated practices and, and wake up to, to, to deliver. You know, we're gonna stop doing things that people hate. Just stop it and then double down. How do you feel? [00:41:29] Sarah: Yeah. How, how do you feel about, so these, you know, the marketers that are out there now in, in, let's say in bigger companies, but even entrepreneurs, like, besides you, you reading your book, how are they, how are we gonna get them up to speed with these skills? [00:41:48] Because unfortunately, Unless they have the luck to have you at their, at a lecture in their university, they're still being taught marketing from the sixties. Yeah. [00:42:00] It's, it's such a big mismatch. And, and I see that in, in the online marketing sphere as well. We're still being marketed to like 20 years ago with all the shaming and manipulating and [00:42:12] Mark: on the lot. [00:42:13] Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting, Sarah, that a lot of the problem right now is actually even in the universities. I mean, the universities many universities are so far behind. Mm-hmm. You know, it, it, I, I think I. The slowest moving. Most bureaucratic organizations I've ever worked with are, are universities and these are the institutions sad that we're, that we're counting on to, to keep our, our students relevant. [00:42:42] And there's many young people coming outta universities that are, you know, connecting to me saying, I'm totally unprepared for the world. All this stuff I learned, nobody's even doing this stuff anymore. Yeah, so there's a lot of problems. There's a lot of issues. But here's the thing that gives me a lot of hope. [00:42:59] I. [00:43:00] First of all, there is change happening. Absolutely. Sarah. There have been people that have taken my Marketing rebellion book and said, this is the new framework. This is the way we're gonna go forward, not just small companies. There's a Fortune 100 company that, that contacted me and said, this is the way we need to go forward. [00:43:20] You know, how can you help us do this? So that's number one. Number two. I think the best leaders today, they wanna stay relevant. You know, to, if you are managing a brand, here is your mission. A brand is a never ending journey of relentless. Relevance, relevance, relevance, relevance, relevance to now, to this moment, to this year, to this culture. [00:43:49] That's it. That's your job. Yeah. And, and to be relevant, you, you, you, you, you've gotta move away from some of these things that people just see are [00:44:00] not relevant anymore. They don't even work anymore, right? So we've got to start reaching out. We've got to start experimenting. And I think what gives me hope is that, look, any, any. [00:44:12] Great professional today. They know this. They wanna be relevant, they wanna be relevant in their careers, they want their companies to be relevant and, and so I think my message is, is is gonna connect because it has to connect. [00:44:26] Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. I do feel also always come back to Covid, but I do feel like it has helped with human evolution and of consciousness and people like, you know, never. [00:44:41] Like before they, they're like, we're done with this spammy marketing stuff. Like the, the kind of, I call it the bullshit The word is escaping me, but, but like the trigger, you know, is likes meter. We know, we can tell that this is all fakes and that that's so, [00:45:00] so I do feel, yeah, there's this gap between consciousness that has risen and some of the, the marketing stuff that is just so outdated. [00:45:09] But yeah, like you, I totally believe in humanity and, and I be believe that people. Feel it, like you could just feel it that there's this craving for, for belonging and, and so [00:45:21] Mark: I'm just Yeah. Oh, that, I mean, you talk about measurement that is documented. I mean, it, it, it's, it's just coming at us in every, every day, in every way. [00:45:32] It's, it's all over the news here in America. And I mean, just like two weeks ago I saw this statistic that was just incredible that. Of the young people aged 18 to 24, 50 1% of them had sought medical treatment for a mental health issue. Hmm. The average for every other generation, including, you know, my generation is 24%. [00:45:59] [00:46:00] Wow. Yeah. For young people today, it's 51% and the average for every other generation is 24%. There's something really wrong here going on. Mm-hmm. And you know, look, my book is not Pollyannish saying, Hey, start a community and change the world. I'm saying, look, There's a, there's a real marketing urgency to consider new ideas like this. [00:46:26] And oh, by the way, it's, it's gonna do some, it's gonna do some good for the people in your community. [00:46:33] Sarah: Yeah. I, I really feel this more so than in other, in, in the other books that, that you come from this place of. Let go of the ego and tap into the love. That's there's some warmth, you know, even though it's a business book, I feel like there's some warmth reading this. [00:46:51] And then, yeah. And that's also the, the thing that we need. Now it's like, you know, how can you have a community that is Cold and [00:47:00] based on Eagle. Well that's not gonna work. So there definitely has to be yeah, the warmths as well. I wanna tap into also kind of the bridging it to the technology piece to, to wrap up, because it could almost be like a paradox, you know, it's like, wait, wait a minute, okay. [00:47:18] We have this problem with technology, young people, too much technology, and yet, You are talking about technology and AI and in web three in the last part of the book, so draws this picture, how do they fit together? [00:47:35] Mark: Well, first of all, thank you for reading all the way to the end of the book. [00:47:40] Sarah: That was a test, you [00:47:42] Mark: know? [00:47:42] And you know, I'll tell you some of the, some of the most interesting. Things I have in the book are at the end and, and I thought, gosh, maybe I should put this up more towards the beginning so people can make sure I make sure they see that well. So there are [00:48:00] two big issues I, I talk about at the end of the book, technological changes and sociological changes. [00:48:06] They kind of go together that. Are suggesting there are gonna be very new kinds of communities in the future, and businesses need to be waking up. Whether you have a community or you just want to tap into a community, a certain demographic of consumers, you've gotta be aware of what's going on. Number one, on the technology side. [00:48:31] We hear these mysterious words like Web three and NFTs and Metaverse, and the irony is there isn't really a good definition for any of those things. Maybe NFTs come, come closest, but you know, people have really wild, wide, varying ideas of what the Metaverse is gonna be or what Web three is going to be. [00:48:52] But when you cut through all the jargon, What you really end up with is new ways for [00:49:00] people to belong and especially young people today, are just surging into these areas. So we've gotta be aware of what's happening, what's going on there, how these communities are being created, and consider if that's one of the ways we need to be relevant. [00:49:18] On the sociological side, young people today, they want to be. Invisible. They don't wanna be found, they don't wanna be discovered. They don't wanna be criticized and bullied and and marketed to. So today, much of our marketing is dependent on social listening platforms that tap into Twitter and LinkedIn and Facebook. [00:49:45] Well, guess what? Young people today, they're not there. Mm-hmm. They're not there at all. It's amazing to me. Sometimes I do guest lectures at, you know, universities. Even like people in graduate school today, they're not [00:50:00] on LinkedIn. You know, it's, it's, it's crazy. So where are they? They're on Discord, they're on maybe they're on TikTok. [00:50:10] They're on you know, communities in the Metaverse, they're on Fortnite, they're on Twitch. Guess what? Social listening platforms aren't there. The, you know, millions and millions of people are having brand conversations in places we can't see, right? So, Just like you mentioned, marketing Rebellion was a bit of a wake up call. [00:50:34] I think this book, you know, part of it is a solution and part of it is a. You know, knock on the head as well to say the world is changing in rapid and unexpected ways, and we don't have all the answers right now, but be aware of what is going on. And, and like I said, gen Z, they're not babies. They're consumers, right? [00:50:56] With growing, growing, you know, [00:51:00] economic power. So this, this is not something to put off and we really need to think about this now. Yeah. [00:51:07] Sarah: Yeah. And, and, and I do also see this theme of letting go of control, right? The, the Gen Z doesn't want control, and so they want this connections of trust with the, with the not Bitcoin. [00:51:21] The other one. The, the NFTs blockchain. Yeah, the blockchain, you know, kind of like, okay, I can trust this connection because it's decentralized and, and so all of these topics that for us right now, I. They've most markers I would assume kind of sounds like Chinese. And so they have to, really, what you're saying is basically almost, you have to have one person per department stay on top of the new stuff, right? [00:51:51] It's like, yeah, yeah. [00:51:52] Mark: Go. Yeah. I, I, I, I think, you know, if you've got that kind of luxury, I mean, Sarah Wilson is someone I feature in my book. [00:52:00] She is former Facebook, former Instagram writes for Harvard Business Review, sort of looking at Gen Z culture and Zen Gen Z marketing strategies and, and she says rather boldly in the book, she said, I think it's time I. [00:52:16] Just to find the youngest person in your marketing department and say, pay attention to this because I don't understand it. [00:52:23] Sarah: Yeah. I saw that quote and I was like, lucky me. I have two sons, 16 and 19. They tell [00:52:29] Mark: me all the insights. Well, yeah. I, I, I, I mentor my, my kids are grown, but I mentor young kids. Yeah. [00:52:36] And I mean, I'm always asking them, what are you doing? What are you seeing? Exactly. Let me, Let me watch you play Roblox. Why did you do that? Yeah. Yeah. Why did you buy that? [00:52:47] Sarah: Yeah. And all the ad blockers, just like you said, right? It's like everywhere. Yeah. [00:52:51] Mark: I wanna, I, I gotta watch my, my kids I mentor play Fortnite cuz I die every time I can't. [00:52:57] It's like, what's the use? I die [00:53:00] immediately, which makes them laugh, but, you know, so I've gotta watch them. I gotta watch them do it. Yeah. [00:53:06] Sarah: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I really appreciated this time with you, mark. I, I'm totally with you. Community is, is the way to go and I think we have a lot to learn from the communities, especially the marketers who think, you know, you just throw up a website and a pay button and then there you go. [00:53:26] You have your community. I think it's time to step back and come. Yeah. Step back from the ego and come with this humble learner approach to say, okay, what can I learn from this community? Yeah. That's the way I look at it. And it sounds like you do too. [00:53:42] Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. It's always delight. [00:53:46] Yeah, likewise talking to you. It's nice to find such a, I, I think we're of one mind and one heart when it comes to marketing, so it's for sure good to find. It's good to find an ally out there. [00:53:58] Sarah: Thank you. Thank you. Do you [00:54:00] mention the names of your books again and your website so people can [00:54:03] Mark: find Yeah. [00:54:03] The books we talked about today are marketing Rebellion. We didn't mention known, but you know, we, the book on personal branding I think is extremely relevant today. I think personal branding, when you get down to it can be. It's, it's everything in, in many ways when it comes to our careers and marketing. [00:54:23] And then my new book is called Belonging to the Brand. My Community is the Last Great Marketing Strategy and you can find my blog, my podcast, my books on my social media connections@businessesgrow.com. [00:54:39] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question. Mark, what are you grateful for today or [00:54:43] Mark: this week? Right now. [00:54:46] Well, I'm grateful for so much. I'm grateful for, for my, for my health right now. I've, I've gone through a, a, a week of of of illness here and I'm I'm grateful for we talked a lot about community, but I'm also really grateful [00:55:00] for the, your audience, my audience, the out there that, that supports me in so many ways. [00:55:05] That's, that's just incredibly humbling just to be interested in my work and support my work. So I'm grateful for, for you and your listeners today. Thank you, [00:55:15] Sarah: mark. Always a pleasure to hang out. [00:55:18] Mark: Yeah. Thank you, Sarah. [00:55:27] Sarah: Whether you are a community member or are thinking about creating your own community, I hope you found this episode with Mark. Really, really helpful. I know I did find out more about Mark and his work@businessesgrow.com and check out my two favorite books from him, marketing Rebellion. And belonging to the brand. [00:55:49] You can find them on his website or directly at Amazon. And if you're looking for a community of like-minded humane marketers, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:56:00] You can find out more at Humane. Dot Marketing slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode@humane.marketing slash H 1 64, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business. [00:56:19] Manifesto and the free, gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and selling like we're human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. [00:56:43] Speak soon.[00:57:00]

Miriam Schulman, my guest today, is an artist, author and host of The Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love. Her signature coaching program, The Artist Incubator, teaches artists go from so-so sales to sold-out collections. After witnessing 9/11, Miriam abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist. Featured in major publications including Forbes, The New York Times, Where Women Create, Art of Man, and Art Journaling magazine. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC's “Parenthood” and the Amazon series “Hunters” with Al Pacino. NOW, Her book with HarperCollins Leadership, Artpreneur, has been released in JANUARY 2023. In today's episode, Miriam and I talk about: The definition of art Why creative artists struggle most with marketing How embracing your inner weirdo and honoring what comes easy for you Why talking about the problem doesn't work for artists About Miriam's love for email marketing Why art matters And so much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact by. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general, business building, or help. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more@humane.marketing slash. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:31] Hi, friends. Welcome back. Happy Spring. Today's conversation fits under the P of product, and if you're irregular here, as always, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here, big warm, welcome. Uh, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one. [00:02:53] Marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of [00:03:00] marketing@humane.marketing slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. It's kind of the foundation of your business and your market. [00:03:17] So today I'm talking to New York based Miriam Schulman about making art your product. I'll tell you more about Miriam in just a second, but first I want to give you an update about the Humane Marketing Circle, our community. Um, I wanna tell you that bringing in in a young community facilitator was one of the best moves I've ever made. [00:03:40] You know how it is. You have to invest in something in order for it to grow, but investing at the stage where you know the income is just not there yet. It is always scary, but. My gut was telling me, you know, this is the right thing to do and I'm just so excited to [00:04:00] be working with Eddie now, um, who's our community facilitator and, and carer and, uh, net weaver, that's how he, uh, refers, um, to himself as. [00:04:11] So besides adding a second monthly call that's hosted by three of our ambassadors, we, uh, have also transitioned in January to a new online platform. Uh, it's on Cajabi not Mighty Network, and we're really loving it. It feels like Cajabi is kind. You know, is, is one of us, it feels like us, not perfect, but very playful and kind. [00:04:39] It's kind of like, I think of it as the little sister of Mighty Networks with big dreams. And so after every call, Eddie, um, is giving us a challenge to complete. So either something that deepens our connection with other members. Because that's a big priority for us, is [00:05:00] that members are interconnected. [00:05:02] That's the definition of a community, right. So, uh, Eddie helps us with that and puts a challenge up on our, uh, cajabi. We call it our water hole, our place, you know. Kind of nicer image than just a water cooler. So we call it our water hole. Uh, the place where animals in Africa get together in the morning and drink. [00:05:24] So, um, he puts a challenge up there and helps us, uh, connect with each other. Or it might also be a, a challenge that helps us with our marketing and our. Business. So, um, yeah, if you've been thinking about joining for a while now is really a good time because it's time. In May I'll be doubling the monthly rates. [00:05:47] Uh, besides the monthly calls and the active online community, you also get one live 90 minute workshop on a marketing or business topic, as well as all the recording. And we will soon [00:06:00] also probably be, be adding a third call per month. So yeah, I feel like stepping into my personal power and it's, it's time to raise the, the rates, but there is still time to join us at the current monthly rate, which is $37 per month. [00:06:17] So have a look at the details at humane.marketing/circle and also look for the circle inaction link, uh, on that page. On that circle in action page, you'll see some excerpts from our calls and testimonials and all of that, um, kind of real behind the scenes info. Thanks so much for checking that out. All right, Miriam Schulman. [00:06:44] My guest today is an artist, author, and host of the Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love. Her [00:07:00] signature coaching program, the artist incubator teaches artists to go from so, so sales to sold out collections. [00:07:09] After witnessing nine 11, Miriam abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist featured in major publications including Forbes, the New York Times where women create Art of man and art Journaling. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC's Parenthood ND Amazon Series, hunter Hunters with Al Pacino, and now her book with Harper Collins Leadership Art Printer has been released in January, 2023. [00:07:42] In this episode, we talk about the definition of art and how art may not just be what we think it is, uh, why creative artists struggle most with marketing and what to do about it, how embracing your inner weirdo [00:08:00] and honoring what comes easy for you. Frees you up and actually lets you do the marketing, uh, that is aligned with you. [00:08:09] Why talking about the problem doesn't work for artists and what to do instead about Miriam's love for email marketing, why art matters and so much more. So let's dive in and talk to Miriam about making art your product. [00:08:28] Hey, Miriam, so good to speak to you today. I can't wait for this conversation about art. [00:08:35] Miriam: Well, thanks so much for having me, Sarah. It's, it's an honor to [00:08:38] Sarah: be here. Thank you. So I was just, we were just recording an episode for your podcast and, and now, um, you know, I'm on the other side of the mic and I'm excited to Yeah. [00:08:50] To kind of pick your brain, uh, around art and entrepreneurship because as we just discussed offline, they have a lot to do with each other and it really [00:09:00] depends how you define art. And so I think maybe that's a good place for us to start. Why don't you. Tell our listeners how you define art. Yeah, that's [00:09:11] Miriam: a, that's a great question. [00:09:13] Um, so my book is Entrepreneur, but the truth is, in the way we're gonna define art, every entrepreneur is an art preneur and vice versa. So, when I started writing the book, it's not, it was very, it had to be very clear. This is not just for visual. And it's not. And then we made the definition very broad. [00:09:35] Could be your art, could be writing, it could be um, music, it could be dance, it can be ceramics, it can be fashion. But once you make that definition, definition so broad, your art really is whatever product that you're producing. And so all I'm doing in this book is teaching people who cons. Don't believe that [00:10:00] business lessons apply to them. [00:10:01] I'm showing them. Mm, yes, they do. But the thing is, there's a lot of people who don't define themselves as artists who maybe look at marketing advice and they're sitting there if their arms crossing, oh, that doesn't work in my industry, or, that doesn't apply to me when actually it does. [00:10:16] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I I I was just gonna say, like, what, when I was thinking, when I, I was preparing for the episode and I'm like, well, art and marketing. [00:10:27] It's not usually a good marriage, right? People are who are artists, they're like, yeah, that's not for me. Or, or maybe they do wonder, well how do I sell my art? But what they see out there, they always feel like that doesn't apply to me. And so you're saying the same thing. That's what you're seeing usually [00:10:49] Miriam intro: from artists. [00:10:50] Why is that? Well, you know what, I, I get a lot of pushback cuz I, I like to say, you know, anybody. With a, who wants this can do it. [00:11:00] Anyone with a dream can do it. And so what the pushback I get is, yeah, but what about talent? Mm-hmm. And here's the truth, Sarah. Marketing trump's talent every single time we've all seen, um, not so good artists. [00:11:17] Succeed or you know, ones where like, huh, you know, we all seen that. And the same thing is true in, in business marketing is gonna trump every single time. Like the, you know, if you don't, people don't know about you, they can't buy your product or service. [00:11:34] Sarah: Right. It's, it's that just saying, you know, you stay the best kept secret. [00:11:39] It's like, yeah, you're really good, but nobody knows about [00:11:41] Miriam: you. Exactly. Exactly. So, and there's a lot of examples in the art world. So there's this, uh, American artist. Is he, he may not be American. Damien Hurst, is he American or is he from London? Okay. You don't, it doesn't matter cuz you don't know who he is. [00:11:56] It's fine. Um, he sold [00:12:00] a shark in formaldehyde for like a million dollars. Now is that talent? You know, it's like, I don't think so. So that is just a marketing stunt and people who are creating, um, like NFTs, like there was this guy who made this huge gold cube and put it in, uh, central Park to sell as an N F T. [00:12:22] Was, is that talent? No. It's a big marketing stunt, right? So, [00:12:29] Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think then that creative entrepreneurs struggle most with, uh, um, marketing or, or what part of the marketing do they struggle with? [00:12:42] Miriam: Yeah. A a lot of it is is the mythology for artists in particular. There is that whole idea of they, they're taught you can't sell out or like, you're not a true artist if you are trying to market, which is complete BS because we have a [00:13:00] history going back to Michelangelo, where he was very much interested in the commercial side of things. [00:13:06] I mean, he's not just pa uh, sculpting and painting whatever he felt like. He didn't wanna paint the Sistine Chapel, but the Pope said, yes you do. Here's the money I'm gonna pay you. So he, he did projects for monetary reasons, so it's not a sellout to create art that's marketable that the, the market wants. [00:13:26] So that is a big thing that holds people back. But I also see. And Sarah, tell me if you see this too for, for women in particular who are socialized and, and I don't mean only some women are socialized this way. I think all of us women are socialized this way. We're socialized to play small, to not desire money, sex and power. [00:13:50] I think it's, that's probably more true in the US with the, because of the tradition of Puritanism, this is how our country was founded by. Though [00:14:00] that very conservative religion, so Right. Um, not to play small, and whether you're looking at images of thin women, the, the message that women are getting is not to take up space. [00:14:13] Mm-hmm. And that it's wrong to want money. So that plays a significant role because people will continue to sabotage themselves if they don't believe that it's okay. To desire money and success and to play role a bit a role and be visible and be big. So that is gonna sabotage people if they're trying to stay quiet and small when they have, and, and also be visible at the same time. [00:14:43] It just, they don't work together. [00:14:45] Sarah: Yeah, I hear you. That I'm sure there's a, there's something on that belief level, right? Um, I also think it's like, so. Right. Like I often talk about the right brain and the left brain. So I really [00:15:00] also think like creative's brains are wired differently and they're, um, you know, there's so much in the creativity that when they are then seeing, uh, you know, marketing advice that is very structured and follow steps and, and they're like, this is how you do it. [00:15:19] That's when they get turned off. They're like, no, but I wanna. Me, I just wanna, you know, it's kind of like almost rebellious, maybe. Artists seem to be more [00:15:29] Miriam: rebellious in a way. Yeah, I I, I can see why you would say that. I think for, for, at least for me personally, I found a lot of the marketing advice out there, a turnoff, because it was coming f like it was very bro marketer. [00:15:43] It was like, okay. Right. Exactly. You know, these very. Um, hustle style, whereas the best marketing in the world is being your true, authentic sell, right? [00:15:54] Sarah: Yeah. So not in your book, you have this line, embrace your inner weirdo, right? [00:16:00] Yeah. So tell us more about that. What you, what you mean by that. Okay, [00:16:04] Miriam: so the word weird, the original definition comes from Scotland, and it meant fate or destiny. [00:16:11] And then you may recall in Macbeth there were the three witches who were called the weird sisters. So then the meaning meant something associated more with faith, the supernatural. And as time went on and the supernatural became vilified, The word weird took on that negative connotation. So to be weird is really to embrace your destiny. [00:16:39] To embrace what's really special about you. So I, I say love your inner weirdo and be a weirdo in the most affectionate way possible. [00:16:48] Sarah: Hmm, yeah. You also say, um, like one of the examples you mentioned in that chapter is share your values and. You know, that's a [00:17:00] huge part of humane marketing as well. It's like, share your worldview. [00:17:04] Share what matters to you. People don't typically see that as marketing. They always think, maybe especially artists, they think, oh, you have to talk about, you know, this art piece or this book. I've written a book and now I have to constantly talk about this book. Not true. If you share your worldview and your values, that is part of your marketing. [00:17:28] Miriam: Oh, for sure. So there are a lot of artists who are afraid of speaking out. So I live in the US we have very divisive politics, and they're worried of losing business if they have. One point of view and they express a view that me, other people might get them upset. So for me, I'm very progressive. I have a lot of liberal views. [00:17:55] I'm not worried about alienating people who are [00:18:00] conservative. Yeah, I may alienate some people. There are some diehard conservatives though, who like I've had some words with and they're still following me. But people respect that more. And what happens if you don't share your values, they're gonna assume. [00:18:15] So right before we hit record, Sarah was asking me, so you just had an election, what do you think? And I don't know if you were like trying to see where I was at on that political [00:18:25] Sarah: No, I knew from reading the book, I knew. Okay, right. [00:18:27] Miriam: You read my book. But, but let's pretend you didn't now. And I said, oh, I, you know, and I gave a very witchy, rashy response. [00:18:34] You, you may as assume, you might assume that I don't care about politics when, meanwhile, I care very deeply about the unraveling of, of women's rights and what I see happening. So it's important to dive deep into that. I was very impressed Billy Eilish, um, went on record, uh, on Instagram, telling people to vote and why this was important. [00:18:58] Yeah. Other people [00:19:00] say vote, but only if you agree with me. You know? But, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's really nice to see some people who have big platforms not being afraid of alienating people and the ones who are very big on all parts of the political spectrum. Are not afraid of being polarizing because you can love me or hate me, but there is, when you're in business, there is no money in the middle, and when you're trying to please everyone, you're just striving for mediocrity. [00:19:34] Right. [00:19:35] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. Um, I just, I, I follow Guy Kawasaki, uh, you see who he is. Um, he's, he's kind of the, you know, past Apple and then Canva. Um, he's just a spokesperson now, pretty much. And he just really shares his political views and just, I think before the elections he put, he's active on LinkedIn or that's [00:20:00] where I see him. [00:20:00] And he, he was saying, you know, Uh, your influencers, what are they saying right now? Are they saying, you know, go vote and, you know, here's what's really happening because go vote. That's kind of an easy out as well, because that doesn't really share your worldview. That's correct. Um, so he was, you know, being more specific, um, or so, so artie's influencers telling you who to vote for and why it. [00:20:27] Or are they telling you the latest car they bought or you know, which mansion they're staying at and all of that kind of stuff that we're so used to from the bro influencers. Right? Yeah. And I thought that made a lot of sense. That's exactly the worldview that we're interested in and we're not so interested in, you know, the latest car you bought and all of. [00:20:49] Miriam: Yeah. Yeah. And there's actually a very significant, um, population that the data shows, they're called the conscious consumers that they do shop with. They do vote with [00:21:00] their pocketbooks. Of course. Yeah. So they're checking, you know, you know, and they don't all have the same causes that they care about. You know, some people care more about sustainability of a brand when they're shopping, some care more. [00:21:12] Inclusion. I know that when I receive a clothing catalog, if it's all white women, I throw it out now like I'm, you know, they don't care enough to show, have diversity in the catalog. Um, I, I don't shop there. So there is a, a, a large percentage of people who. This is their values matter. And what matters is that the brands are doing it in an authentic way. [00:21:36] Not like, oh, so this is gay Pride week and here's your rainbow smoothie, or whatever, because they people can see through that. It's how you're showing up all year long. That's gonna matter. [00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And the, the reason again, we're bringing this up is, Oftentimes creatives don't realize that that's part of marketing. [00:21:57] Um, that's right. Yeah. And it's, it's not just the, [00:22:00] you know, follow these three steps to market your art. It's, it, it, it's. A whole package. That's the other thing that you mentioned in your book, um, is honor What Comes Easy for You. And I love that. That's kind of like my motto for life, right? Um, and so you have a, a funny gardening story in there. [00:22:19] Uh, would you mind sharing that? I think that's such a good example of, of how that works. Yes, yes. [00:22:25] Miriam: Okay. So I, I live in New York City. I'm staring at a brick wall right now, but we do have a, a farmhouse two hours away. It's in the Catskills in New York. And my husband started a garden, um, when we first moved there, and we, he went to the nursery and he spent. [00:22:42] Oh, I don't know, a couple hundred dollars on plants, like these starter plants. And then when we were at the counter, he just grabbed a couple of seed packets. So the seed packets, we just scattered in the plants. You know, it made a mess in the back of my car with the dirt. I wasn't happy about [00:23:00] that. And we spent a good back breaking afternoon, putting in these starter plants. [00:23:07] Well, a couple, whatever, whatever the time span was later. The seeds were doing really well. It was like Jack and the bean sprout, like all these, like these stalk came up and we had beautiful string beads. The starter plants on the other hands, like all the bugs ate them. So it was like, here's a situation where. [00:23:27] The seed packets were the easy way to go and they actually were the easier the, the best result, whereas this harder, more expensive thing didn't work out as good for as well for us. But we do this a lot in our business where we try to make things so hard and we have something that comes easy for us and we think that couldn't be as valuable. [00:23:46] Right. [00:23:47] Sarah: Yeah. I just love that story, I guess, because I, I also, I'm not a big fan of gardening, but my husband is, and yeah, I would just totally throw some seeds [00:23:56] Miriam: out there. That's right. Well, it was like the sunflowers came from seeds. [00:24:00] The green beans came from seeds. Um, we tried something else this year. I forget what it was, and it was like, yay [00:24:06] Sarah: seeds. [00:24:07] Yeah, exactly. And it's funny how we often. You know, it's kind of a metaphor. Plant a seed, and I love that also for marketing, where you might just have a conversation and you're not actually pushing it and trying to sell them something, but in your head, you know, I just planted a seed, and this might turn into something bigger that you weren't even expecting. [00:24:33] I love the metaphor of seeds as well, so yeah, that's a beautiful metaphor [00:24:38] Miriam: that you, the way you just [00:24:39] Sarah: used it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, another thing that I know that you love is email marketing. So it seems like you really built your business based on email marketing, so, Maybe you, because right now I feel like people are still understanding. [00:24:57] Okay. Yes. Uh, email [00:25:00] marketing is a good strategy, especially with all the talk about social media going down the tubes and Twitter disappearing and all of that. So how does one start an email list today? Um, you know, starting out as a creative, how do you actually get people's attention? Because I do feel like. [00:25:22] A lot out there. And I know that my people, they're like, yeah, but there's so much also crap out there that I feel like I give my email and I get this one pager that is not even valuable. Um, so what would you say, what would you tell creatives how to get started? [00:25:40] Miriam: Well, let me just start with that last example you gave just because you had a, you meaning the listener had a bad experience with somebody's Jan. [00:25:49] Email doesn't mean you have to emulate that. Right. You be that bright spot in someone's email where they look forward to opening your emails or they love the [00:26:00] freebies that you're sending them. You, you be, you, you make a, you can, you're the one who has control over that and can make a difference. Right. [00:26:07] One thing I like to tell my clients, or what I talk about in the book is emails are really love letters to your audience. Mm-hmm. And that is the best way to nurture a relationship. [00:26:18] Sarah: Right, so, so when you work with clients, when they ask you, well, so how, what do I create? You have some great examples of what creatives created as a download, as a free [00:26:33] Miriam: Yes. [00:26:34] This, this was a very important chapter for my audience because there is so much advice out there for people who are weight loss coaches. You just give them a cheat sheet or a menu and they like, I have no idea what it is that they want, and they come up with things. That really have nothing to do with what they're ultimately selling. [00:26:55] Like I'll see artists have screensavers or something. It's like, yeah, but you're not [00:27:00] selling that. So that is not, and also people don't want your screensaver. They want their kitty as their screensaver or their kid or their doc. So, The, the things are pe again, this is where people make it way too hard for themselves. [00:27:13] So for, for my audience who are selling products, one of the best things to give away is just early access. So you don't even have to create something. And this does work. So a good example of this is in, in April when the war first br, when the war first broke out in March and then Easter in April that year. [00:27:34] Uh, Stanski eggs, which are Ukrainian eggs, I don't know if you you've seen them, but they're very intricate, intricately painted eggs. This was cut out of the preview book that you got, by the way. I think we put it back in for the final version. It doesn't [00:27:51] Sarah: be, you see? Yeah. So there, I thought you were tricking me, but No, [00:27:54] Miriam: no, no, no. [00:27:55] Yeah, so we, we had it in, we cut it out, we put it back in. [00:28:00] So there, there was this artist creating eggs and she sells them for over $200. And they're, they're absolutely gorgeous. These very intricate, and they're made by, um, using I think like a toothpick and putting boutique on to make these fine lines and doing these, the dipping process. [00:28:21] So she was completely sold out at these prices. Now people are gonna wanna join her email list just to find out when they come back in stock. Wow. So people who are creating one of a kind things, this is something that is a reason. If you're selling a service like a class, it's re, it's a reason enough that people wanna be on the wait list when, when it opens up. [00:28:44] So that's like the easiest place to go. Uh, if for, for the visual artists out there, I love the giving them a post, people, giving people a postcard with your art on it. That does require. The person giving you their email [00:29:00] address to also give their postal address, which is more of a commitment, but that means they're more serious about your art. [00:29:06] And again, everything that you're giving as your lead magnet needs to be a free taste of whatever it is that they're ultimately gonna buy. Hmm. So that's why I said a screensaver doesn't work. Um, artists who give away coloring pages, that only works if you're selling a coloring book if you're trying to sell something else. [00:29:26] Not a great idea. Yeah. [00:29:28] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Um, I'm just trying to figure out how, you know, the, the Etsy website, how does that play into the whole I'm an artist and I'm selling my art because Etsy, it's, its stand. Website and I see a lot of creatives putting their art up there, but, but then how would they, yeah. How would. [00:29:53] Still build an email list and then say, yes, absolutely. It's now available on Etsy. Yes. Something like that. Okay. [00:29:58] Miriam: Yeah, so that, [00:30:00] that is why I encourage clients to build their own website because if you're gonna have to drive traffic anyway, you might as well drive it to your own site. Yeah. The artists who do well in Etsy are driving traffic fair. [00:30:16] Yeah. And then Sarah, do you want me to circle back to the lead magnet thing? Because we can also discuss what lead magnets work? Well, if you're not a visual artist, like what I use in my own business, please. Okay. Yep. Let's do that. So, of course there's the free masterclass, but one thing that I, I've done that works really well is transcribing the masterclass and turning that into an e. [00:30:37] Without the sales pitch, but basically giving the same exact content. So think about all the different content that you're giving them. How can you repackage it and give the same experience? Whether that is a masterclass, some people prefer to read the book, right? You know, like whether it's Terry Potter or the movie. [00:30:55] Like some people rather read the book than see the movie. Right. So, [00:31:00] yeah, to give them different experiences. Yeah, [00:31:03] Sarah: I like that. And then I guess, you know, for. I don't know if you've set that up, but the free chapter for the book is usually what you do when you have a book. Have you set that up? I haven't [00:31:15] Miriam: set that up yet, but I probably should. [00:31:16] You should. Yeah. I know I probably should. I have to talk to my, uh, yeah, my [00:31:21] Sarah: publisher about that. Yeah. I, I feel like people, you know, they, they like, uh, uh, free down download of the first chapter and then decide of course on Amazon. Usually you can kind of see the first couple of pages, but it's not, it's not the whole chapter usually. [00:31:36] Yeah, so it's helpful too. You [00:31:38] Miriam: wanna hook them in. So yeah. What is it that you can give away that will hook them in and want more of what you got? [00:31:43] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Now, uh, just yesterday in, in my Humane Marketing Circle community, we talked about actually having freebies without getting people's email, there seems to be a trend [00:32:00] of. [00:32:01] B, because people kind of feel like, well, it's not really free if I have to give my email. And so my people, they're like, oh, I want them in my world, but I don't. I want to have options. I want to have maybe one thing that they can just download for free and then come back for more. What do you think about this strategy? [00:32:24] Miriam intro: Well, you're taking a big chance that they're not gonna ever come back again. It's kind of like a one night stand. [00:32:31] Sarah: Yes. Like it, but it could be, you're so good on this one night stand since we're going with this example, that they wanna come back. Right. Because [00:32:41] Miriam: they're like, they're really, that's the problem that I see with, with TikTok. [00:32:45] It's like the death of and, and reels on Instagram too, but, but we'll just talk about TikTok. It's the death of the scroll. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, and I know entrepreneurs are spending a tremendous amount of time creating content for. [00:33:00] TikTok, social media and social. But, but especially those videos, they take a lot of time. [00:33:04] Now, if you've been on the consuming end of those videos, you know that before you get to that end of that video, they're already making you push up to the next thing. Mm-hmm. So I found that I can have thousands of views on, on a reel with nobody going to my profile. And I had an artist who created a viral reel. [00:33:24] She got 45 thou, 45,000 views without. Um, like maybe a couple followers, but nobody going to our website cuz you can see the stats. Now with TikTok, the followers there are completely meaningless. You can have, um, you can follow someone and never ever see their content ever again. So somebody who has millions of followers, that's not a relationship with millions of people. [00:33:48] It's kind of a meaningless metric, right? I would be very wary of trying to build a relationship where you can't, you're not in [00:34:00] control of getting in touch with them ever again. Hmm. Yeah. [00:34:03] Sarah: Okay. It's interesting, uh, and I totally agree with the, with social media, people spend so much time on there and oftentimes entrepreneurs are exhausted and, and, you know, to go back to the do what's easy, well, social media nowadays is not easy anymore. [00:34:21] No. It's not really want to get something out of it. So, um, I think it's important to, to say that not enough people. You know, say the truth, how it is, and it's not easy to build a following or, or nevermind a following, just a business, uh, on social media today. So in your opinion then, what's the best way, where would a, a creative, uh, an artist, an entrepreneur start when they're just starting out their. [00:34:51] Miriam: Well, bill, bill, that email list, and I wanna circle back to a question you did ask, but I don't think I really answered. It's like, well, how and where do you start? Mm-hmm. [00:35:00] And there are only three ways to build your audience. There is what I call your universe. So your universe is anyone you come into contact with, whether it's in person or online. [00:35:13] Then there are other people's univers. So that could be like what we're doing now. Sarah, I'm on your podcast. You came on mine. Right. So that's basically, other people call it earned press, earned publicity. Mm-hmm. And then, which is free. And the third category is paid publicity. Mm-hmm. Or paid platform. So those are, there's, those are the three ways. [00:35:39] And they're really, I don't think there is any other way other than those three areas your platform. Other people's platforms and rented platforms. Mm. Yeah. [00:35:49] Sarah: I, I like that. It, I mean, I know that, but it, explaining it this way, it feels like, okay, if you're just starting out, You gotta start in your [00:36:00] own universe. [00:36:01] Yes. Cause you don't have the credibility yet to go, or you can start with the paid, but that's also correct. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you don't really have the credibility yet to go out there and say, okay, can I be on your podcast? Or can that co Or not just credibility, but maybe also confidence. [00:36:19] Miriam intro: Well, actually, let me. [00:36:21] Circle back so you can get, um, free, free press. And I did that even in the very beginning. But you need to start local. Local. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you can't jump, jump the ladder. It's like, it'd be great to be on Oprah. Right. But yeah, there's different levels. Exactly. Like there's things like, you know, I would love Brene Brown to invite me to her podcast, but you know, [00:36:45] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:36:46] It, yeah, it just kind of goes the same with anything in life. It's like, oh, am I on this level or Yeah. Am I evolving to future levels? Yeah. [00:36:56] Miriam intro: And, and that's why we should talk about something, which I don't think I talk about in the book at all, but [00:37:00] who knows? Maybe if I write another book, who knows. Um, so that's why I spend so much time building what I call relationship capital, because the way to get the. [00:37:12] To expand outside of your universe and get some of those earned opportunities is by building relationships, which is why joining communities like yours, Sarah, is so important. Like those relationships, yeah. Can help you. And I never have regretted investing in paid programs, paid masterminds, because those networks have been hugely. [00:37:36] Yeah, [00:37:37] Sarah: don't you agree? Oh yeah, totally. So much so that, you know, the partnership is the seventh p of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Uh, because I really think partnership is the way to, to market and, and, you know, collaborate with others. And, and what you just said as well is there's different levels within partnerships as. [00:37:59] [00:38:00] There's the free levels, which is peers, and then there's the paid levels, which is mentors and coaches, which again, it's just like these unwritten rules. You probably can't go to, you know, ask, uh, Brene Brown if she would, you know, feature you or something because there hasn't been a paid relationship for some things. [00:38:21] There just needs to be a paid relationship for them to pay attention to you. You know, they have so many people they could be paying attention to. [00:38:30] Miriam: Yeah. And, and one thing that I think is very important, especially now with um, let's just say it like it is the demise of, of easy social media, right? Is I think it is a very important to have your own platform because it's one thing to, uh, to, to get media. [00:38:49] But it's much better if you are the media. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you have a YouTube channel, if you have a podcast, and by the way, blogs are coming back. I have been reading people's [00:39:00] blogs posted on in. LinkedIn. That seems to be the new thing. Have you noticed that too? That trend? Everyone's like running to LinkedIn lately. [00:39:06] Sarah: Oh yeah. No. I've been on LinkedIn for, for years like that. [00:39:11] Miriam: I've been there, but I haven't been like consuming the way I started to. It's like, well that's a good article. Like as people are actually putting some quality things there. Yeah, so that's be be the media. If you want opportunities, give opportunities. [00:39:25] Mm-hmm. People like, if you are one of Sarah's coaching clients, invite her to your platform. Right. Am I putting you on the spot? Is this gonna be edited? [00:39:37] Sarah: N no, no, this is all good. No, we're not editing the, well, we are editing the, but I'm not cutting anything out. Okay. Cause this is, this is a Cuban conversation, so, yeah. [00:39:47] Yeah. No. [00:39:48] Miriam: So lemme, instead of putting you on a spot, I'll just talk about myself. So when I joined Masterminds and I started a podcast, I had my, my first guess was my business coach, right? Then I [00:40:00] could say to my business coach's friends who were like, kind of jumping a level here. Mm-hmm. You know, they weren't my level, they were my business coach's level. [00:40:07] Right. Hey, Jason Van Orden was a guest on my show and I'd love to have you on as well. So now this is already giving me credibility because my business coach. Said yes to me on my podcast, which was an easy yes for me. So now somebody says, oh, well if Jason was on it, I'll do on it. And then I went to the third person, Hey, Jason was on it and such and such was on it. [00:40:29] Would you like to come on it too? So it's like, this is how we build that ladder of credibility is starting with your own network, starting with peers. And then you can add, just go up those, uh, go up that ladder with baby steps. Yeah, [00:40:45] Sarah: that's so. I feel like you, you just said blogs are coming back and I, I was also thinking art is come, coming back. [00:40:55] I really feel like, you know? Yeah. So, so maybe the question would [00:41:00] be like, why does art matter now more than ever going forward? [00:41:06] Miriam: Yeah. Well, because we're going through such an existential crisis in the world, and art is what gives us meaning. [00:41:13] Sarah: Mm-hmm. So good. And, and, and that would've been a nice ending, but I wanna come back to that, to that one point you made when I was on your show about the, you know, in marketing we always talk about these pain points and Oh yeah. [00:41:29] And you have such a good point about. Well, I'll let you explain [00:41:33] Miriam: it. Okay. So this is like, it's not that marketing doesn't apply to creatives. It just may be the way you've been taught. It's not the right way. So we're talking about the bro marketers and a lot of them also they say find the pain point and twist that night. [00:41:49] Exactly. Like if you heard it, that's what, but that's what they say. Yeah. All right. So, but the problem is when you're, when you're selling something that gives people pleasure, like [00:42:00] let's say, I'm the producer of Harry Potter. I'm not gonna market the movie by saying, well, their pain point is their bored. [00:42:08] Watch Harry Potter. It alleviates boredom. You don't do that, right? So, or, or, or what's, what's the pain point of the Oreo cookie? Nothing. We just want it cuz it tastes good. Right? So, And that doesn't mean that your art has to be all rainbows and daisies. Cause there's plenty of art that is dark and goth and emo, and people get a lot of pleasure from that. [00:42:31] But instead of worrying about what people's night sweats are, what their pain points are, what's keeping them up at night, you gotta think what are their wet dreams? What is it that they, they really want, what they really desire? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sell that pleasure. [00:42:49] Sarah: Mm. Yeah. And, and that ties in with why art and pleasure is so important right now is because, you know, who wants to open their email and, and, you [00:43:00] know, Find out how much they suck and how much their life is miserable and because they're not this and that, and not enough. [00:43:07] No. Like, like you said, we're living in a crisis, so we, we want positive reinforcement, not negative reinforcement. And I think all the right brainers, that's what they're bringing to society right now. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, do you tell people where they can find your book in, in your website, and all of. [00:43:30] Miriam: Okay, so if you like this conversation, you will also love. Sarah on my podcast, the inspiration plates. I'm not sure who, I don't remember who is coming out first. Me neither. But yeah. But you can find the inspiration plates if I'm, if she's not there yet, just hit that plus sign or the follow sign and you'll get it very soon. [00:43:50] Cuz we had an amazing conversation, which was completely different, I think, than what we talked about today. Mm-hmm. And my book Art is available. There's a lot of [00:44:00] pre-order goodies, so I hope you'll check that out. Art. Dot com. [00:44:05] Sarah: Wonderful. Entrepreneur book all in one word. [00:44:08] Miriam: Yeah, that's, that's the website to, to get the book Or just search Entrepreneur. [00:44:13] But you get bonuses when you go to my page, so there you go. It's all about the, it's all about the freebies. [00:44:19] Sarah: I always have one last question, and that is, what are you grateful for today, Miriam? More this week? Oh, [00:44:25] Miriam: that is such a beautiful question. Did you tell me ahead of time? I would have to answer. [00:44:29] Sarah: No, I did not. [00:44:31] I put you on the spot because we all have to have something that we're [00:44:35] Miriam: grateful for. I, I am very grateful for my family right now. Um, I'm grateful that I have a husband who lets me be weird. Um, I'm grateful for, for my children who don't give me too much angst. They're adults, by the way. And, uh, yeah, I'm very grateful for my family. [00:44:52] Wonderful. [00:44:53] Sarah: Awesome. Thank you so much for [00:44:55] Miriam intro: being. And I'm grateful for, for this opportunity too. Let's just, let's [00:45:00] just say that too. [00:45:01] Sarah: Thank you. If you're an artist or a creative mind, I bet this conversation resonated with you. So do take some time to find out more about Miriam and her work@schulmanart.com and check out her book called The Art Printer. [00:45:19] Wherever you get your books, if you go to schulman art.com/prophet, you'll find, uh, Miriam's, uh, free download. It's called the Artist Profit Plan Guide, and it helps you dig deep to go beyond the starving artist mindset to uncover what's really sabotaging your success. So again, go to schulman art.com/. [00:45:45] And finally, you can also look up her podcast. It's called The Inspiration Place. And if you look for episode 239, that's the uh, show where I talk to Miriam about humane marketing. So again, [00:46:00] look for the Inspiration Place podcast. And if you wanna hear me on her show, that's episode 239. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:46:15] You can find out more at humane.marketing/circle. You find the show notes on this episode@humane.marketing slash 16 one, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. It is my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle mini confidence mini course, as well as my two books. [00:46:41] Marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you [00:47:00] want to see in the. Speak soon.[

Una misteriosa puerta se aparece en los sueños de Sarah y criaturas nocturnas acechan para salir por la noche.Graba un mensaje de voz aquí: https://www.speakpipe.com/creepyenespanolhttps://www.instagram.com/creepyenespanol/Creado por: Jon GrilzProducido por: Guillermo Ruiz de Santiago SánchezTraducción: Alex VillalobosVoces de: Ginette Zavala, Fernando Hernández, Edgar CañasMúsica: elements.envato.com"Why Sarah Never Sleeps" by Death by Proxy"The night is an ocean" by Queen Iacomina Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

“If you want to have a VBAC, trying is so empowering. If it's on your heart, you have to go for it because it's possible.”We have had her on the pod as a fabulous cohost a few times, but now we get to hear Sarah's own VBAC story today! After a PROM and stalled long labor, Sarah was told her pelvis was too small. She was labeled as a “failure to progress” and “once a Cesarean, always a Cesarean”.  Sarah put in the work to change the way she let outside opinions influence her choices. She didn't let self-doubt control her thoughts and surrounded herself with positivity. Sarah went all in for her VBAC and everything worked out beautifully!Additional LinksEntering Motherhood PodcastSarah's InstagramHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsFull TranscriptMeagan: Hello, this is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have another VBAC story coming for you. Today is actually kind of a fun episode because we have one of our own VBAC doulas. She's actually been a cohost on a couple of episodes, so this is really fun to have her be on the other side of things instead of being a cohost, now sharing her story. I am so excited, Sarah, for you to be with us today. She is a mom of two, a wife, and a mechanical engineer. Since entering into motherhood herself, she has become certified in postpartum nutrition and is a birth and postpartum doula which I think is amazing. Postpartum nutrition is such a big factor. We are going to hopefully have a special guest on here sometime maybe in the spring and she's going to talk about that and how nutrition can play a huge factor in our recovery and how our incisions, like our C-section scars, heal and how it can impact VBAC. It's amazing, so I love that you are certified in postpartum nutrition. If you have anything that you would like to share at the end of this, please be my guest and definitely share anything. I am so excited for you to be here today. Review of the WeekMeagan: I'm going to read a review and then we are going to jump into your amazing story. Sarah: Sounds good. Meagan: Perfect. This is a more recent, August 2022 and it's from Connor Alyse Hoelle. Sorry, I'm really bad at names obviously. I'm probably butchering it. But the review says, “I was planning on waiting until I give birth to leave a review, but I love this podcast so much. I have to do it now. Julie and Meagan have created such a fantastic and empowering resource in The VBAC Link podcast. When I first got pregnant, I wasn't sure if I wanted to pursue a VBAC and had a lot of self-doubts. Now, I'm just a few weeks from my due date” so I bet she's had her baby because right now it's the end of 2022 “ and thanks to this podcast, I'm genuinely so excited to go into labor. I'm been binging every episode and can't believe how much it has changed my perspective and increased my confidence in my body and my baby. I promise you'll be hearing an update from me afterward.”So Alyse, we would love to hear the update and see how things went and see how you're feeling about your birth. I love that she has been with us and binging. It warms my heart so much. So if you also have a review, please never hesitate to drop us one. You can leave it on Apple Podcasts. I think Google Play maybe, actually, I don't have Google Play so don't quote me on that but if you can't do it on Google Play, you can to go Google. Just search “The VBAC Link” and leave a review there or you can send us a message on Instagram. You know all of the things. I say it every time, but we love your reviews, so please if you wouldn't mind, leave us one. Sarah's StoriesMeagan: Okay, Sarah. Are you excited? I'm excited. Sarah: I am, yeah. I am just super thankful to be here. Like you said, I was able to be a cohost on some other episodes but to be able to share my story is just something that's near and dear to my heart. I love sharing it, so I'm happy to be here. Meagan: Well, thank you. Share away. Anything that you would like listeners to hear. Sarah: Well obviously, every VBAC story begins with a Cesarean. Like many other episodes, I am just going to briefly go over what went on with my Cesarean. With my first, she was born in August of 2019 and it was an unplanned Cesarean. I was a first-time mom doing all of the things, quote-on-quote, all of the things I felt like I was supposed to do. I was reading books and talking to other moms. I took a birth course. I had a baby shower. I was looking at all of the cute baby things. I went to all of my prenatal appointments and was checking all of the boxes. I was even seeing a chiropractor. I had a doula. I was just doing all of the things that I felt I needed to do to prepare. I was convinced that I was going to have a completely normal, unmedicated birth. I was just going to walk into the hospital, pop out my baby, and just start this new life of a family of three and being a mom. Everything was just going to work out. Obviously, I'm here because that did not go according to plan like most of our Cesarean experiences. Actually, very similar to your story, my water broke first. Meagan: Mmm, yeah. Sarah: I was just shy of 39 weeks and I got up to pee and sure enough, there was a little bit of a pop and trickle down my leg. I was like, “Man, I peed myself.” I was fully convinced that this was just pee and I was super embarrassed. I went to the bathroom and just continued on. Sure enough, every time I went to stand up, I just kept on peeing a little. Meagan: Like how much pee do I have?Sarah: I was like, “This is weird.” I've never been pregnant before. I'm so far along, maybe this is normal. There I am. Of course, we all have our phones when we're on the toilet. I'm sitting there Googling, “What happens when your water breaks?” or “What is it like when your water breaks?” All of these scenarios are running through my head because everything leading up to that point was basically, “Oh, your water's never going to break. It's not going to be until later on in your labor.” Everything like that, and sure enough, soon after, I believe it was my mucus plug that came out. It's honestly so hard to try and look back on the experience knowing what I know now and say, “What actually happened?” There's no way of being able to go back and actually relive it through the lens that you have now, so it's really crazy to go back and everything, but we were there in the moment and just convinced, “Okay. Water broke. What do we do?” Sure enough, it was just like, “Well, I guess we go to the hospital.” Meagan: That's what I was told. It was like, “If your water breaks, you come straight in.” So I was like, “Okay, cool.” So my water broke and what did I do? We got ready and we went in. Sarah: Yeah. So here I am. I remember my husband took a picture of me standing outside of the hospital. I was happy like, “Okay, we're going to go have the baby now. The water broke. This is great.” I was just convinced that this was all cool. Like, “All right. Baby's coming. My water broke. I must be doing something right.”I got there. They checked me. I wasn't even a centimeter dilated. They were just like, “Okay. We'll see what happens, but you're staying here.” That, I think, really threw me in for a loop. I figured that I was going to be staying there, but I did not think I wasn't even a centimeter dilated. I did not. Meagan: Right, because you think, “Water breaks, I'm in labor.” Sarah: Mhmm. It's go-time. Meagan: We associate water breaking with the movies where it's like, “Hurry! Get to the hospital! We're going to have a baby.” But in hindsight, we weren't really contracting or anything like that. Sarah: Not much was going on. Knowing what I know now, sure. I should have stayed home and all of these things, but again, in the moment and in that situation, it's like, “Okay. Go to the hospital. Show up.” So now, here I am at the hospital and contractions did pick up. They put the monitors on me and set me all up. It was just kind of like shock. I was like, “This is happening. I'm having a baby. What's going on?” So almost through every single contraction, I was shaking and then I was throwing up. From my birth class, it was like, “Oh, if you're shaking and throwing up, you might be going through transition.”So again, I'm like, “Oh yay. My body is doing what it's supposed to. I'm so far along. Let's do this.” And sure enough, I was only at a 2. They were doing all of the cervical checks. I remember specifically this one nurse said to me– so I was only at 2 centimeters at the time and she was like, “Oh honey if this is how you are at a 2, you're never going to make it to a 10. You should just get the epidural now.” Meagan: Awesome. Thank you so much for the encouragement. Sarah: I was just defeated. Over and over in my head, I'm like, “This isn't how it's supposed to be. This isn't what is supposed to happen. What's going on?” And of course, you can't stop birth. It's coming. It's going. Things are moving and all I wanted to do was just take a moment and pause and stop. My body didn't want to. It was just all happening. Naturally, I was just so defeated. I had only made it to 4 centimeters a few hours later after she had said this and I was still trying to motivate myself. I had my doula there. She was like, “You can do this. You're okay.” I was shaking and feeling so scared and just not able to calm down. I think I took what the nurse had said and also just how I was feeling and was like, “I'm never going to be able to relax. I'm never going to be able to do what my body needs to do to get this baby out.” I was like, “Let's do the epidural. Let's just see where this goes.” It let me relax, but ultimately what I was feeling was just all of the pressure. She was posterior and it was just a lot of pressure and everything going on. I think maybe if we did some repositioning, that could have helped, but you never know what's really going on. With the epidural, I was able to relax and calm down. I wasn't shaking anymore. Meagan: Yeah, which makes it more pleasant. Sarah: Right, yeah. I was like, “Okay. I can get through this. This is fine.” I had gotten to 7 centimeters. Now, they were amping up the checks because I had the epidural, so why not?Meagan: You can't feel it, so why not? Sarah: Right, and then I was approaching that 24-hour mark since my water had broken. I did get to 9 centimeters, but they were just saying, “This is taking too long. You should have progressed further at this point. We should really start to consider Cesarean so that we don't fall into any emergency situations.”Meagan: Did they offer any intervention to help you get over that little hump? Was there any talk there like, “Hey, let's give you 2mL of Pit. Let's do something.”Sarah: Yeah, really nothing was discussed in that sense, but I found out afterward when I was pregnant with my second that I did have Pitocin. I was hooked up to antibiotics because I was GBS positive and then after the epidural, I believe they just added on the Pitocin. Meagan: But didn't really talk to you about it. Sarah: No because my provider with my second was like, “Oh, so you had PItocin and everything.” I was like, “I did? No.” They were like, “Well, that's what it says here in your report. I had no idea that they were even administering Pitocin. Maybe that's what helped me progress further, but ultimately, it was just not moving as fast as they would like. Meagan: Yeah. Ultimately, it was that lovely failure to wait. Especially because your body went into spontaneous labor, rupture of membranes spontaneously and then it needed its time. There were some interventions which sometimes, not always, but sometimes can slow the body down because the body is like, “Whoa, hold on,” and then it catches back up, but maybe it sounds like they didn't give you that time to catch it back up. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. It was just one thing after another. After the word “Cesarean” was thrown into the picture, I was just like, ”Oh my goodness. It hasn't even been 24 hours and I have gone from wanting a completely unmedicated birth to now thinking a Cesarean is in the picture.” I just sat. I laid there in the bed just honestly praying and hoping and saying, “Whatever my body needs to do to get this baby out, allow it to happen.” They came back in and checked me. I still wasn't dilated, so they just prepped the OR and I ended up with a Cesarean for my first birth. It was just like we said, I was classified as a “failure to progress”. They were convinced that maybe the baby was too large. My pelvis was too small. All of these things were being documented in my report. “This woman had this happen.”In their mind, they were thinking, “She's never going to have a vaginal birth.” This is just a classic, “Oh, she's going to always have Cesareans if she wants any more kids.” I think that was the picture that they drew up in my file and what was laid out for me with that provider. So going into my 6-week postpartum appointment, I was already like, “Okay. I have to have a vaginal birth. I want more kids. What does this mean?” They basically said, “Oh, well because of your situation, you could try again, but it's probably going to result in the same situation.” They were already telling me that I should just go for a repeat Cesarean if I were to ever have kids again. Obviously, that did not happen, but I had to really put in a lot of work for myself and my education. I found this podcast. I started my own. It was just all of this rush of, “I need to figure out how I can get this to happen because I'm not getting that support from my provider of believing that I can do this. I know it's not the story of “once a Cesarean, always a Cesarean” anymore. People are doing this. People are having very successful VBACs. It's one of those things where if you choose to have a repeat Cesarean, that's your thing, but if you want to have a VBAC, I feel like trying is something that is so empowering. If it's on your heart, you have to go for it because it's possible. Meagan: It is possible and what's so hard for me to hear is what you just said. Before even getting pregnant or before even getting there, we have these providers placing doubt and fear in our minds. When I say doubt, it's doubting our body can do it, but also, they pretty much say, “Well, sure. You can try but it's going to end up the same way, so why waste your time? Just go in and have a baby.” So we're being placed with all of these seeds. They're being placed before we even fall pregnant again, so then we are doubting ourselves. I'm just going to say it how it is. It bugs the living crap out of me. It bugs me so much that we have people placing doubt in our ability to have a baby when they don't know. Sarah: Right. I could have easily been like, “Oh okay. From now on, I'm going to always have Cesareans.” I could have gotten pregnant with my second and scheduled a full-on Cesarean and that would be the path that it went, but I had that successful VBAC. I had a baby come out of my vagina. It was possible. It's just crazy that I think we need to share these stories. We need to show that it's possible to send some shock to the providers and make them see, “Okay. We can rethink this situation.” It is something that's going on. Obviously, women are doing this.  It's really crazy. That provider too was like, “Oh, I just delivered a baby from a mom that had her 10th Cesarean. You can have as many as you'd like.” Meagan: Kind of funny, coincidentally I should say that you said that. We just had someone commenting. I did a reel on breech and she said that she had 10 Cesareans. 10. That is a lot of Cesareans. It is. She just said, “I wish I knew what I know now.” The same thing. That's the hardest part. We can't shame ourselves for not knowing then what we know now because that is how this works. We grow. We learn. We experience things and that is what morphs us into the passionate people or passionate person that wants to have a VBAC, right? And again, it's no shame to those that don't want to. That's okay too. It's just a matter of knowing, “Hey guys, really though. It's really possible. It really is, and don't doubt your body for a minute,” because I know people out there do, but you don't need to. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. It's so much easier said than done. It's like, “Okay. Don't doubt my body.” That's what I mean. I think for some of us, it is easy to not doubt ourselves. It's easy to have that confidence. I really needed to work on my confidence. I really needed to work on trusting myself. Meagan: Yes. Sarah: It's just those quote-on-quote “simple things” that for some of us really take time and a lot of rethinking what we have known about ourselves. Meagan: Mental capacity for sure. Sarah: Yeah, and also, the language that we're using and the way that we speak to ourselves and then also the way that people are speaking to us like that nurse that was commenting on me only being 2 centimeters and my provider saying, “You should just go ahead.” I had to learn how to take that information and refilter it to just be like, “Oh. That's their opinion. That's not truth.” Meagan: Love it. Sarah: That was so much of my VBAC journey and really preparing for stuff. I also was not only like, “How can I have a baby?” because that was the message that I was aiming for from my first, it was, “How can I have a vaginal delivery? How can I have this VBAC?” I took a HypnoBirthing class which covered all of those techniques. It was pregnancy and birth. I even used it in postpartum and was constantly reiterating these tracks that they had of, “You're doing great. It's perfect. Believe in your body. Trust in your body.” I needed to put myself into that hypnotic state in order to reframe my mindset to be able to successfully have this. I was just fully embodying everything in that sense. They also say that the color orange is also a really great color for having more activity and oxygen to the brain and really being more clear. I believe it also enhances confidence and happiness, all of those things that you need when you are birthing your baby.Meagan: Very positive. Sarah: Yeah, so I bought this big, fuzzy blanket that was bright orange. I had an orange water bottle and I had all of these little battery-operated tea light candles that were orange. I was like, “I am just covering myself in orange.” I am just all positive thoughts because I needed to have that because I knew, “Okay, if I come across a nurse again and if I come across friends or family–”. People were like, “Oh, what? You're going to be in the hospital though right?” It was like all of their fears were—Meagan: Projecting? Sarah: Right. Also, after my Cesarean, it was so much like, “Oh, I'm so sorry that that happened to you.” All of these other people's perspectives bombarded me with second-guessing my decisions and wondering what I just went through. I was having so much doubt because I was not confident in any of my decisions anymore. I was like, “What am I doing?” Now, I feel like I've gotten to a point of that true confidence. Obviously, there's always going to be something else that comes up. Now, I'm dealing with a toddler and a baby and all of these new things, but being able to throw yourself in that position knowing that there are going to be things that come up that are unpredictable and you're just going to have to renavigate through that. Having the experience of knowing, “I can rethink this situation. I can put myself in something that I've never been exposed to before and make it out.” That's why I took The VBAC Link doula certification. I was already doing some doula work and things like that. I was like, “You know what? I really feel like I need to educate myself as much as I can and become certified that is specifically in something that's going to prepare me not only for my birth but also to be able to help other people that are going through these same scenarios.”Meagan: Right. That's why I became a doula. Sarah: Right. Meagan: I was so inspired. I'm like, “No, I don't want anyone to feel the way I felt.” I can't take that completely away. I can't take someone's feelings away, but I want them to hopefully feel supported, educated, backed, and overall just loved because I lacked that. I lacked that with my second. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. I think it's just dropping into different communities and finding podcasts like this that are going to be able to be amazing resources to give you that, “Oh, hey. Somebody's doing what I want to do” or “Somebody's already accomplished something that I see as a potential for me.” I think that we need to see those examples. We need to have these stories be told because it really helps us see that it's possible. Sometimes, that's literally all you need when you're going through this journey. I felt like I was doing all of the things now again with a different perspective and not only preparing physically but mentally because I knew that was just as powerful and as important as all of those external, surface-level things that you are shown when you're just preparing for birth in general. Even just staying hydrated and I got certified in postpartum nutrition because I was like, “Something is going on here. There is some sort of disconnect. My body is different. My body has changed.” What I believed about nutrition before is not the same as how I'm experiencing the postpartum period. Honestly, just all of that coming together has been super helpful, so I'm excited to listen to that episode that you're going to have. Meagan: Yes, me too. Sarah: Yeah, yeah because it's so much information there that is really being uncovered. It's a lot of new research. Women's health in general, I think, is being real.y pushed and needed. That also, I feel like, just helped me. Watching what I was consuming and what I was putting in my body. Maybe it's old wives' tales but the dates and the red raspberry leaf tea. I was all about it. Even just different smells and the environment that you're in played such a part in creating that good, calming atmosphere and just reiterated my confidence and held me centered in my birth. I originally when back to the same provider that was telling me, “Oh, go ahead. Have so many Cesareans.” My kids were about two and a half years apart. I went in. “Hey, I'm pregnant again. I'm ready for this VBAC. Let's go.” They just kept on saying, “Okay, We'll see how it goes.” My billing came and basically, the bill was for a Cesarean. I was like, “I don't understand. I'm going to have a vaginal birth. Why are we billing me for a Cesarean?” They were like, “Oh well, you know, just in case.” I was like, “Just in case I have a vaginal birth. Why is that not a route that we're leaning toward?” It was right after my anatomy scan at 20 weeks. I switched over to midwives that are in the area and they have, I think, an overall 80% success rate here in Greenville, South Carolina. I believe that if you're going for a VBAC, they are one of the better providers in the area. They definitely want vaginal births. They want that to be the outcome. Once I switched to them, it was not even a thing. They were just, “Oh yeah. VBAC. VBAC.”Meagan: Let's do it. Sarah: Yeah, like, “Okay.”Meagan: We're just going to have a baby.Sarah: Right. I felt so much better. It wasn't until the very end that I was listed as that, “Oh, too big of a baby,” and things like that, they did suggest doing the scan to see the size. I denied it. I said, “No, thank you.” Meagan: How big was your baby?Sarah: My first was 7 lbs, 14 ounces. Meagan: What?! That is not a big baby. Sarah: No. Mind you, I'm only 5'0”. Meagan: But still. I've seen a 5'2” give birth to an 11-pound baby. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. By no means were my babies big. My second was actually 8 lbs, 4 ounces so he was bigger than my first and he was my VBAC. It's really just crazy. That's one thing as a doula, it's hard for me to hear people be like, “Oh, well my provider thinks that my baby is going to be big.” I'm like, “Okay, but maybe no?”Meagan: Right? Exactly. Like, “Okay, but we could look at it this way too.” I had an interview with someone the other day and she was like, “Well, how do I tell if my pelvis is going to be adequate?” I was like, “Your pelvis is perfect.” She was like, “What?” I was like, “No, really though. Really.” I started talking to her about it and she was like, “Oh.” It's hard. So you got the diagnosis of “big baby, small pelvis,” but then you look at the baby and you're like, “But the baby wasn't big.” So they did the scan…Sarah: I did not do the scan. Meagan: Oh, you didn't do the scan. That's right. You declined it. You declined it. Sarah: I declined it because I said, “Well, what is that going to tell me?” If they said, “Big baby,” then I was going to have that in my head. I was like, “Do I need to get it?” And that's what I really enjoyed about them because they were like, “No. It's up to you. You can make that decision.” I was like, “Okay. I don't want it.” Also, the same with the checks toward the end. I was like, “Nope. I don't want any cervical checks. I'll just wait until baby comes and we'll see if I want checks then.” But they were super considerate of all of those things and never made anything along those lines a requirement. If they would have said, “Oh no, we need to have a scan,” that could have turned into some other things. It went, I feel like, as well as it could have. By the time this comes out, he will be over a year old, but right now, he is almost a year old and I am still just absolutely amazed at myself and what was able to happen. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah: The birth itself was crazy. I started to have pressure waves, contractions, whichever you want to call them, really early in the morning, and then probably for about an hour, I just let it play out. I didn't wake up my husband. It was maybe only 3:30-4:00 in the morning so he was still sleeping. We were still hanging out and then it just continued though. I was like, “This is pretty intense already.” I was like, “I think maybe baby is coming. Let's see what's going on.”I had a doula again the second time. We were messaging her and she was like, “Okay, yeah. Perfectly normal. They're probably just going to teeter out and span out. We'll see where you are in a couple of hours or so.” I mean, they did not slow down. They were super consistent and kept on coming. I'm like, “All right. Maybe if I get in the shower, I'll be able to relax a little bit. I'll be able to get through these.” I feel like the shower was one of the worst ideas because I couldn't even dry my hair off afterward. I was just like, “Just get clothes on me.” I did not want to do anything after getting in the shower. I was constantly using counterpressure which I feel is the best thing for me and I definitely recommend at least trying it. We did all of the hip squeezes. Every time I started to feel the need for one, I would just yell, “Squeeze!” My husband would run over and squeeze my hips. Again, it was just ramping up and getting super intense. I had piles of pillows in my bedroom and wrapping around them. I was on the edge of our little ottoman in our bedroom and then went to the bathroom and just was moving around as much as I could on all fours, side-lying, and things like that. At some point, I was laying on my side, then my water had broken well into it all. I was just like, “Oh my goodness. We need to get to the hospital now. Once that happened, I felt him drop. I was panicking because I mean, I specifically wanted to have a hospital birth because I just felt like that's where I needed to be to feel at my comfort level, so once that happened and I felt him, I was like, “We need to get to the hospital! I am not having this baby here.” My friend that was watching our oldest had not gotten there yet and our doula was still like– I think my husband was like, “Oh, we don't want to get to the hospital too early.” He was downplaying everything because of the previous scenario. Now I say, “New baby, new birth.” This is different. We can't take what has happened from our past births into this new one because it's going to be a whole different situation. Meagan: Totally, yep. Sarah: Finally, my friend came over and she was watching my daughter and was like, “Okay, yeah. I've got her. I'm covered. We'll take her to our house,” and things like that. We got in the car and I just remember grabbing and holding on to the holy cow bar and having a foot up on the side and just gripping everything around me going through all of the motions. My eyes were closed and I was just like, “Let's just get to the hospital.” Somehow, we just kept on gaining more time. I think my husband made a wrong turn and I was like, “Just get me there. Get me there.” I think he was panicking. I'm not sure what happened. We finally got there and my doula was standing right at the door of the hospital. There was actually a wheelchair right out there that I thought she had gotten for me. I just jumped right into the wheelchair and she was like, “Oh, okay.” “Wheel me up. We're having this baby.” I was so ready to go. I was so amped up and so pumped. I later found out that the wheelchair had literally just been left there by somebody that had gotten picked up minutes before, but she was like, “Okay. We're going in.” I'm gripping my belly, breathing, and everything. I just remember the person at the front that was checking everybody in was like, “Oh no. We don't do that here. Go straight up.” Sure enough, we got in and I was already at 8-9 centimeters. They were like, “Okay. You're having a baby. Let's get you in there.” I really wanted a water birth or at least to be able to be in the tub, so they started to fill up the water when I was in there, but then after they hooked up the monitors and everything, they said, “We don't really like what's going on with his heart rate and we're just going to keep you out.” I was honestly just like, “Okay. It's not the plan, but let's just get the baby out.” They checked me again and they were like, “You're ready to go. You're ready to push.” The only thing I had to do was get hooked up to antibiotics because I was GBS positive again which was something that I definitely tried to prevent, but I think that's just one thing with my body. I am just forever GBS-positive. Meagan: Sometimes it happens and we don't know why. You might be surprised if you have another baby. Sometimes it doesn't happen. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. They did ask me as I was getting wheeled over to the delivery room, “Do you want the epidural?” I was like, “Heck no. I made it this far.” Meagan: You're like, “No. I just want to have a baby now.”Sarah: Yeah. It was probably a little over an hour from when I got wheeled in until when he came out. I pushed for maybe about 20 minutes and just that feeling of him on my chest. It's literally goosebumps. I felt so proud of myself and accomplished and empowered. I was like, “Oh my goodness,” because I didn't get my daughter to be on my chest with my Cesarean. They had said that that could have been an option and it was not. It was not something that I got to do, so just literally, I didn't care what he was covered in. I didn't care what I was covered in. I was like, “Give me the baby.” I mean, honestly, it was such a cool feeling to have that. Meagan: Absolutely. It's euphoric. You're in a whole other world. It's the weirdest thing because you're there and everyone's there around you, but you're in a completely different space. Yeah. It's a really cool feeling. Sarah: It is. And like I said, he was bigger than my first and when they weighed him and everything, I was like, “See? I can have bigger babies. I can do it.” Meagan: You pushed for 20 minutes. I was like, you pushed 20 minutes with your small pelvis and big baby. Sarah: Yep, yep. I felt on top of the world. I was like, “I can deliver a baby vaginally. I did it.” I took the iconic hand-up-in-the-air photo and was just there snuggling him so much, but yeah. That's my birth story.  Meagan: Oh my gosh. So amazing, so amazing. I'm so happy for you. I'm so happy that all of the doubt that was placed in the first birth was able to just be washed away at the end where it's like, “Whoa. Yes. I can do this. I did do this. This is amazing. My body is amazing. My baby is amazing.” Hearing your first story, it sounds to me like– I mean, I wasn't there. I haven't seen your OP reports. I don't know. I didn't see the tracings, but it sounds like still positional probably, or something like that, so yeah. I'm so happy for you. Sarah: Thanks. Meagan: I'm so happy for you. Sarah: Like I said, it's been almost a year later and I still get so giddy about it. I think it really allowed me to really– I am appreciative of my Cesarean because I feel like if it wasn't for that, I would not be so called to do this work and such an advocate for it and so wanting to be a part of the birth community as hard as I am. I think we have to take those experiences for what they are and like we were saying earlier, learn from them and really grow with them and be thankful for it and just heal from it and see where you're still hung up and what needs to be processed. But go into another birth with a completely different perspective and mindset and just what it is. Finding a provider and finding a location where you feel safe, finding a support person, a doula, and things like that, connecting with the community, and really having that comfort is great, but I do feel like we are our one and only true advocates. Meagan: Absolutely. Sarah: We have to take that action. We have to follow through with what we're learning and like I said, listening to this and being a part of online communities, in-person communities, and things like that is great, but if you're not implementing what you're learning and you're actually taking those actions, it has to click. It has to be like, you do your homework, you study for the exam, and you pass. It's just like one of those things where I feel like you have to really embody it and when I hear people say, “Oh, it's so easy.” I'm like, “It was not.” In the end, overall, it's like when you're running a race. You have to train for it. You have to be a runner in order to complete it without stopping or feeling exhausted. It's a lot and I think that's one thing that is sometimes overlooked. With my first, “I'm just going to walk into the hospital. I'm just going to have this baby.” What needs to be done? I think it's just those kinds of things. You really have to ask yourself, “Am I honestly doing the things that I need to do? Am I implementing them into my life? Am I drinking my water? Am I clearing my fears? Am I healing from my first birth? Am I asking my provider all of the questions that I have? Am I not embarrassed to find the resources that I need? Am I clearing out all of that negative feedback from other people? Am I doing those things and am I dropping into communities that are supporting me and cheering for me?” I think that's where the magic is. That's when it clicks in and that's when you really get to feel confident and empowered and happy with your decisions moving forward. That bleeds into motherhood. I think that bleeds into the whole postpartum period and really just continuing to build that confidence in yourself is my favorite thing that I learned in motherhood. Meagan: I couldn't have said it better. I mean, really. You just nailed it. All of those things are so important. In the end, we have the support. We have the processing. We have all of those things, but in the end, we still have to tune into ourselves and you have to believe in yourself. You have to have that. You can have a huge team of believers and cheerleaders, but you also have to cheer for yourself. I love it. Thank you so much, so so much for all of the information. Sarah: Yeah, this has been so much fun. Honestly, thank you so much. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Fellow thoughtboter Sarah Lima joins Joël to discuss an issue Sarah had when she was doing a code review recently: making HTTP requests in an ActiveRecord model. Her concern with that approach was that a class was having too many responsibilities that would break the single-responsibility principle, and that it would make the class hard to maintain. Because the ActiveRecord layer is a layer that's meant to encapsulate business roles and data, her issue was that adding another responsibility on top of it would be too much. Her solution was to extract a class that would handle the whole HTTP request process. This episode is brought to you by Airbrake (https://airbrake.io/?utm_campaign=Q3_2022%3A%20Bike%20Shed%20Podcast%20Ad&utm_source=Bike%20Shed&utm_medium=website). Visit Frictionless error monitoring and performance insight for your app stack. SQL TRIM() (https://popsql.com/learn-sql/postgresql/how-to-trim-strings-in-postgresql) Iteration as an anti-pattern (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/iteration-as-an-anti-pattern) WET tests (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/the-case-for-wet-tests) thoughtbot code review guidelines (https://github.com/thoughtbot/guides/tree/main/code-review) Side effects in tests (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/simplify-tests-by-extracting-side-effects) Active Resource (https://github.com/rails/activeresource) Different strategies for 3rd party requests (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/testing-third-party-interactions) Transcript: JOËL: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Joël Quenneville. And today, I'm joined by fellow thoughtboter Sarah Lima. SARAH: Happy to be here. JOËL: And together, we're here to share a little bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Sarah, what's new in your world? SARAH: Well, after a year and a half working on the same thoughtbot client, I have rolled off, and I have joined a new team. And I am learning a lot about not only a new codebase but learning to work with a new team. So that's always challenging, and this time it's not different. JOËL: What is something that you like to do when joining a new team to help smooth the onboarding process? SARAH: Well, I think especially getting to know people with one on ones. This time, I didn't do that right away because I had a bunch of time off scheduled right at the beginning of the project. But I did it right after I came back. And I'm learning a lot about my new colleagues, how they like to work, how they learn best. So, for instance, there are some people that like to learn and grow by reading blog posts, reading books, and there are other people that don't like that as much. JOËL: So when you joined the new project, you just reached out to all of these people and set up a few meetings just to get to know them. SARAH: Yeah, exactly. JOËL: That's really good. I've never done that on a project. And now that you've said it, it kind of seems obvious. Maybe I should do that moving forward to get to know new teammates. SARAH: Yeah. And I think it's easier on my project because it's a very small team. There are four of us thoughtboters, and there are just two client developers. So it was easier. JOËL: What about on the code side of things? Are there any tricks you like to do when you're first getting started in a new codebase? SARAH: Well, I think I really enjoy diving in right away, working on something small, and asking questions. I have also found it helpful in the past, especially on larger codebases, that someone that's experienced on a project gives me an overview showing me the quirks. And, of course, a good README is always a good thing to have, and during the process, always be updating the README. In this recent project, it was not different. I opened a lot of PRs to update the README. So that was good to have a PR right on your first day. JOËL: I love that. I think that's usually my goal when I start on a new project is to have a PR the first day that fixes anything in the setup script that has been broken since the last person onboarded or documentation that was wrong. SARAH: Yeah, absolutely. JOËL: It's always a strong first contribution. SARAH: Yeah. What about you, Joël? What's going on? What's new in your world? JOËL: I've been investigating flaky tests, and I ran across a wild bug this week. I had a test that would fail every now and then. And it was pulling some data from Postgres and then doing some transformations on it. And I couldn't figure out why it was failing. It was a complex query. So it was just pulling out not ActiveRecord objects but a raw array of values. At some point, I was putting a PUT statement in the code with the array of values I expected to get and the array I would actually get. And I was surprised to see that there is a field in there that is a float that was rounded to a different number of decimal places. I was like, that doesn't seem right. And so I was digging into it more, and I found out that this decimal value is from a timestamp that is in a file name for an mp4 video file name. And what is happening is that when we're querying the database, we're trying to extract the timestamp out of the file name by dropping the .mp4 file extension. And we're using the SQL TRIM function. Unfortunately, TRIM does not do whatever the original authors thought it does. It doesn't just remove that substring from the end, but instead, it will remove any of those characters, so in my case, any of dot, M, P, or 4 in any combination from the end of the string. So anytime that my timestamp ended in a four, any fours were just getting chopped off. So if it ended in 44.mp4, the 44 would also get removed, not just the .mp4, which meant that randomly whenever a timestamp happened to end in 4, my test would flake. SARAH: Wow. Do you have any idea how much time you spent debugging that? JOËL: Oh, probably took, I'd say, a day, two days. This is spread over a couple of debugging sessions. But eventually, finding that particular location for the bug probably took us a couple of days. In the end, the bug fix for this is just a couple of lines, a couple of days work, and the diff is only a few lines. But I'm sure that the discussion on the PR is going to be really interesting. There's probably going to be a description that is a lot longer than the actual diff. SARAH: Yeah, 100%. [laughs] JOËL: Have you run across any interesting PRs on your new project? SARAH: Yeah, I did. In fact, I recently reviewed a PR that had three interesting main issues that I wanted to address. And I wanted to lead the person that was working on it to a slightly better solution. So the three issues I saw were that the tests that were added were very DRY, so that was making everything a bit difficult to understand. The second one was that I saw one of the ActiveRecord classes was making HTTP requests, and that didn't sound like a good idea to me. JOËL: That is unusual. SARAH: Yes. The third one was that there were a lot of collections being built iteratively where another innumerable method would be a better fit, such as map instead of an each call. JOËL: Oh, this is a classic situation where you're just using each to go through and transform something, and you've got some sort of external array that you're mutating as part of the each. SARAH: Yes. JOËL: There's a great thought article, I believe, by Joe Ferris on Iteration as an Anti-pattern. SARAH: I think it's by Mike Burns. And I have referred to that article. In fact, I had very good articles for two of these three problems. I referred to a bunch of articles about WET tests as opposed to DRY tests, like how striving for tests that are DRY is not a good idea as opposed to telling a whole story in your tests. And I referred to that other article how iteratively building a collection can be an anti-pattern by Mike Burns. But the second issue about HTTP requests I didn't have anything to refer to. Maybe we should write one. JOËL: This reminds me that in the thoughtbot Slack, we have a custom emoji for you should write a blog post about that. And this would probably be a good time to use it. SARAH: Yes. So, Joël, how do you typically handle a PR that is maybe too long, and you have a lot of concerns about it? And how do you handle delivering that feedback? JOËL: Oh, that is a challenge. I've definitely done it poorly in the past. And I think the wrong way to go about that situation is to go thoroughly through the PR and leave 50, 60 comments. That is overwhelming for the other person. And they're going to have a really bad day when they see 50 comments come through. And there's so much that they can't really address the main things you were talking about anyway. So what I generally try to do, and it's kind of nice now that GitHub doesn't immediately publish your comments, is if I realize...like I start putting some more detailed comments, and then I realize, oh, there's going to be a lot, zoom out a little bit, and try to find are there some higher level trends that I can talk about? And maybe even just summarize in a larger comment at the bottom and say, "Hey, I see some larger structural issues," or "This PR is leaning very heavily on a technique that I think is maybe not the best use here. Maybe we should discuss that," instead of digging into maybe the actual implementation details of the code. SARAH: Yeah, funny, you should mention that. I have recently also started doing that, using the summary version of GitHub reviews. And I used to just go file by file and leaving comments right away. And I'm thinking that this is not a good idea, especially when the PR is long. So I think another thing I would do is also call the person to pair and ask questions and understand where the person is coming from and also explain what are your concerns and how you both can get to a better place with that PR. JOËL: That's really important. You have to remember there's another person on the other end of this. I love the idea of reaching out to them directly. Especially if there's a larger conversation to be had around approach or implementation, it's often easier to resolve those directly rather than back and forth in GitHub comments. So you mentioned situations where the PR is really long. Have you ever had to push back on that in some way? SARAH: Yes. Especially when I saw, whoa, that's going to be difficult to understand, that's going to be difficult to review. And I have reached out to the person to say, "Hey, what about we split that PR in two?" Of course thinking about splitting the PR in a way that makes sense, in a way that still delivers our users' value as soon as possible. JOËL: I've been in situations like that where it's a really long PR, and the person has already invested a lot of work into it. And maybe it's even gone through a round of reviews. It feels almost too late to ask them to split up the work. But then I've actually regretted not doing that because there's so much complexity going on that then it doesn't work, or there are some bugs in it. We struggle to ship this, or it might just have to go through so many rounds of review and re-review and re-review. And because the PR is so long, it's a huge commitment for me to re-review it every time. So there are situations I've been in where I wish that before even looking at the code at all, I was like, this is too long. We need to either slim down the story of what's being done. Because sometimes that's what happens is that the ticket is not well-defined, and someone goes in and just sort of keeps adding more code. And it becomes a bit of a big ball of mud. So, either helping to refine the ticket first or splitting the PR rather than actually looking at the code. SARAH: Yeah, and pairing often can also help with that. So especially as consultants, our clients may ask us to work on different projects, and you work alone. And you may have tight deadlines, but I think it's always helpful to find time anyway to help your colleagues as well. JOËL: I like that. I think there's a lot of value in the work that we do, where we collaborate with others in addition to whatever we do solo. So, oftentimes, it's great to pair with people at a client where possible to become involved in the code review process to even get involved in maybe some of the more broader system design conversations, sprint planning. All of those things are really good to jump into more than just getting siloed into working on just a solo feature. SARAH: Yes, 100%. MID-ROLL AD: Debugging errors can be a developer's worst nightmare...but it doesn't have to be. Airbrake is an award-winning error monitoring, performance, and deployment tracking tool created by developers for developers that can actually help cut your debugging time in half. So why do developers love Airbrake? It has all of the information that web developers need to monitor their application - including error management, performance insights, and deploy tracking! 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You literally have nothing to lose. Head on over to airbrake.io/try/bikeshed to create your FREE developer account today! JOËL: So one of the things you mentioned that stood out for you when you were doing some code review recently was making HTTP requests in an ActiveRecord model. Why is that something that sort of caught your eyes, maybe an area to push back on in a particular design? SARAH: That's a good question. My concern with that approach was that our class was having too many responsibilities that would break the SRP principle, the single-responsibility principle, and that would make our class hard to maintain. So the ActiveRecord layer is a layer that's meant to encapsulate business roles and data. So I was worried that adding another responsibility on top of it would be too much. So my idea was that we would extract a class that would handle the whole HTTP request process. JOËL: Yeah, I feel like my instincts typically when I've done third-party integrations is that the ActiveRecord class should not know about the external internet world. It knows about the database. It knows about some of its core model functionality but that knowing about the internet world is somebody else's responsibility and that, ideally, the direction of dependency should flow the other way. So maybe the class that makes an external request knows about the ActiveRecord object if it needs to let's say, instantiate an instance of that model using data from an external request. Or maybe it's even some third-party thing; maybe it's their controller that knows how to make or that will ask another object to make a request to some API and might also make a request to the model and ask it for some database data and then combine those two together. But that the ActiveRecord object only knows about that database area of responsibility and doesn't know that other things are also happening in the system. SARAH: Absolutely. And I was also thinking that that class would have a difficult test to write. So a good idea is to separate our code that is side-effectful into their own classes, and that makes our tests so much easier. JOËL: I actually wrote an article on the topic where one of my realizations at some point was that a lot of the pain points in code are what functional programmers would call side effects, so things like HTTP requests. And these are often things where we need to stub or do other things. And so isolating them as much as possible often simplifies our tests. SARAH: Yeah, certainly. And I refer to that article every time I have the chance. JOËL: Have you encountered the general concept of layered architectures, or hexagonal architectures, or things like that in the world of Rails or maybe elsewhere? SARAH: Not hexagonal architecture. I have heard about it, but I haven't dived into it yet. Can you give us an overview? JOËL: So I've also not worked with an actual hexagonal architecture. But the general idea, I guess, of layered architectures is that you build your code in a variety of layers, and different layers don't have access to or don't know about the ones...and I forget in this model if it's above or below, let's say it's below. So the inner layers don't know about the outer layers, but the outer layers can know about anything below them. And so if the core of your app is the database, your database is most definitely not knowing about anything outside of just its data. And your ActiveRecord models that sit on top of that know about the database, but they don't know if they're being fronted by a web application, or a command line, or anything else. And then, above that, you might have more of a business process layer that knows about the database. It might know about how to make some external requests, but it doesn't know about anything above that. And then, maybe at the final layer, you've got an application layer that handles things like controllers and interactions with users of the site. The core idea is that you split it into layers, and the higher-up layers know about everything below them, but no layer knows about what's above it. I feel like we're loosely applying that to the situation here with ActiveRecord in that it feels like the ActiveRecord layer if you will, shouldn't really know about third-party API requests. SARAH: So, one exception to that is the ActiveResource approach that connects our business objects to REST services. So if you have an external website and you want to connect it via HTTP, you can do it using Rails ActiveResource. JOËL: That is interesting because it functions like an ActiveRecord object, but instead of being backed by the database, it's backed by some kind of API. I almost wonder if...let's refactor our mental model here. And instead of saying that HTTP belongs in a separate layer that's higher up, maybe, in this case, it's almost like a sibling layer. So your ActiveRecord models know about the database, and they make database requests in ActiveResource, or I think there are some gems that provide similar behavior. It might be backed by a particular API, but neither of them should know about the other. So maybe an ActiveResource model should not be making database requests. SARAH: Yes, I like that line of thought. JOËL: I guess the question then becomes, what about interactions between the two where you want to, I don't know, have some kind of association? You know, I don't think I've ever used ActiveResource on a project. SARAH: I did once when trying to work with something close to microservice architecture. So we had a monolith, and we built a small service that was also in Rails, and we needed to consume the data that was stored in the monolith. JOËL: And did you like that approach? SARAH: Yeah. I think in that specific scenario, it was very productive. And I enjoyed a lot the API that Rails provided me via ActiveResources. JOËL: Did you ever have to mix ActiveResource models and ActiveRecord models? SARAH: No, I didn't; thankfully, not. I have never thought about that. JOËL: So maybe in most applications, those two will just sort of naturally fall into maybe separate parts of the app, and they don't need to interact that much. SARAH: Yeah, I think that will be the case. So mixing two of those subjects we're talking about here, that's testing and HTTP requests; we've been having a discussion in our project about the usage of VCR. That's a gem that records your HTTP requests interactions and replays them during tests. We've been discussing if using it is a good idea or not because we've been having issues with cassettes, that's one of VCR's concepts when these cassettes are not valid anymore. So do you have any thoughts on the subject? Maybe that will make a whole episode. JOËL: We could definitely do a whole episode, I think, on testing third-party APIs. VCR is one of multiple different strategies that can be used to not make actual real network requests in your tests which brings some stability. There are also some downsides to it. I have found, in general, that over time, cassettes become brittle. So the idea of VCR is really cool. In practice, I think I've found that a few hand-rolled Webmock stubs usually do the job better for my needs. SARAH: Yeah, I'll be interested in hearing that episode because, at least in my project, we have a lot of HTTP requests to external services, and they return a lot of information. I'm wondering if just dealing with that with Webmock would be too much work. JOËL: One of the really useful things about VCR is that you can just make your request from anywhere, and it will just completely handle it. In some ways, though, I think it maybe hides some of that test pain that we were talking about earlier and allows you to sort of put HTTP in a lot of places that maybe you don't want it to. And by allowing yourself to feel a little bit of that test pain, you can more easily notice the places where maybe an object should not be making a request. Or the actual HTTP logic can be moved to a concentrated place where all the HTTP is done together. And then only that object will need unit tests that actually need to mock the network, and most of your objects are fine. Where it gets interesting is more for things like integration tests, where now you're doing a lot of interactions, and you might have quite a few background requests that need to be made. SARAH: I'm looking forward to the whole episode on this subject because I feel there's so much to talk about. JOËL: There really is. I have a blog post that sort of summarizes a few different common categories of approaches to testing third-party requests, which might be different depending on whether you're doing a unit test or an integration test. But I grouped common solutions into four different categories. We'll make sure to link that in the show notes. So we've been talking a lot about testing. I'm curious when you review PR, do you start with the tests, maybe read through the tests first, and then the implementation? SARAH: That's a good question. I have never thought about starting with tests. I think I'm going to give that a try anytime. But I just start reviewing them like by the first file that comes up. [laughs] JOËL: I'm the same. I normally just do them in order. I have occasionally tried to do a test first, and that is sometimes interesting. Sometimes you read the test and, especially when you don't know what the implementation is going to be, you're like, why is this in the test? And then you jump to the implementation like, oh, that's what's going on. Well, thank you so much, Sarah, for joining us on this whirlwind tour of code review, design of objects, and interacting with HTTP and testing. SARAH: My pleasure. JOËL: Where can people find you online if they would like to follow your work? SARAH: I'm on Twitter @sarahlima_rb. JOËL: We'll make sure to link that in the show notes. And with that, let's wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show. If you have any feedback, you can reach us at @_bikeshed, or reach me at @joelquen on Twitter, or at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. Thank you so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. Byeeeeeee!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

We hear about the dangers of pornography, rightfully so. But can pornography ever be helpful in the process of healing from trauma and with one's sexual identity? In this podcast Sarah bravely shares her story as a faithful LDS who experienced sexual assault and how pornography helped her reclaim her identity and heal from the abuse.    0:00:00.0 Speaker 1: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of improving intimacy.   [music]   0:00:24.6 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of improving intimacy. On today's episode, we have Sarah who has offered to go into a very vulnerable and maybe even scary past with sexual assault and what you did to... Is it fair to say, heal or recover? Thrive in spite of that tragedy. So welcome, Sarah, I'm glad to have you here. This is a topic I haven't discussed yet, so one, I wanna be sensitive to your background and history, and I'll let you guide the conversation, but you've expressed the importance of sharing this for other people, so I'm excited to hear what you have to say. So Sarah, tell us a little bit about yourself. Why are you here today, and what is it exactly you wanna share?   0:01:11.7 Sarah: Well, thank you first of all for having me on. I am very passionate about this because I remember growing up thinking that this was... I was surely the only person who this was happening to, and then as we'll discuss later, some issues that came up in marriage that just increased that feeling of isolation and shame and loneliness, and I vowed at the time to... If I ever have an opportunity to talk about it, to talk about it so that someone out there is not feeling the same way I did. So that's why I'm so passionate about this, and I think we can just start with that kind of history of what it was like to grow up and date and then move into a marriage and have some of those same issues with little education.   0:01:53.5 DB: Yes, it's an important topic that we don't discuss a lot now, I appreciate your bravery in doing this, so let's... We don't need to go in, you're welcome to go into as much details you absolutely want, but for context, are you comfortable with sharing maybe the age this happened? So that we have a little understanding of the history of what's going on there and any details that you're comfortable with sharing.   0:02:18.0 Sarah: Sure, so I grew up just in a normal LDS family, a very strong LDS family, all my siblings remained active, so I had great role models, looking up to them, I was active in a Young Women's, everything was just in line for the perfect fairytale story. And I never really dated much in high school, and I just remember thinking, "Oh, I just want a boyfriend so badly," and I watched all my friends date and I just thought, "Oh, that sounds so wonderful. That's something that I'd really like." And then I had my first boyfriend, and we went out on a few dates, and I was 17 at the time. And I remember thinking, being so excited for the first kiss, and then the first kiss happened and when within maybe five to 10 seconds, my shirt was off and he was un-fastening my bra clasp and I thought...   0:03:12.7 DB: So you mean he took it off...   0:03:14.1 Sarah: Yeah, yeah, he... It was like first kiss, peck, and then I thought I was gonna have this time to like, "Oh, kinda float away and enjoy this moment of happy ever after", and I was like, "Whoa, what is going on?" And I didn't know what was going on, I didn't know what these things I was feeling, what they were, and I was just very overwhelmed with the situation and I didn't stop anything, 'cause I think I was just struck with terror and just being overwhelmed and thinking, "Well, no one's talked about what this is, I don't know what is going on." And I don't actually even remember how that ended, but I remember leaving, sitting in the car feeling like I can't go home. My parents are gonna know that I broke the Law of Chastity, I wouldn't have to talk to the bishop who's my best friend's dad...   0:04:06.0 DB: You felt responsible for it.   0:04:09.7 Sarah: 100%. It was my fault, 100%. And just that was the beginning of... And I was 17 years old, that was the beginning of not talking to my parents about these experiences, thinking that I was the only one, but also thinking that that's what every girl was experiencing.   0:04:26.9 DB: You had no idea?   0:04:27.6 Sarah: Yeah. I was the only one, yeah, I was the only one responsible but every other girl surely had to be having these experiences, but it wasn't their fault. So that was just kind of the beginning of a long trail, and I didn't necessarily at that time know that that was sexual assault. I just kind of thought, "That's dating, here we go." [chuckle]   0:04:49.3 DB: How scary.   0:04:50.9 Sarah: So scary. And he was preparing to go on a mission, and so I was like, "Oh well, he's this great guy who's gonna go and serve the Lord and do all these things, and surely it's my fault." And I'd been raised with this mentality that modesty is my responsibility and how I dress will directly impact what boys do to me and how boys think.   0:05:12.6 DB: And that's what you're thinking was your fault?   0:05:16.6 Sarah: Totally.   0:05:17.1 DB: Was because... Do you feel like you were dressed immodestly that evening?   0:05:19.6 Sarah: No, actually, I had come from playing a volleyball game, so I had been wearing athletic gear and in my mind, I'm like sweaty and gross. [chuckle] No one wants to do that, right? And also, I should note that I developed rather quickly as a child, I was... I started puberty at 10 years old, so at 10 years old, I was fully grown as a woman, and I think I internalized a lot of shame about that, of having this really grown-up body and this little girl's brain and not really understanding how to handle both of those mindsets. So when that happened, it was like, "Oh, well, that's because I have this grown woman's body, [chuckle] and he can't control himself."   0:06:03.9 DB: And therefore, it was your fault.   0:06:05.3 Sarah: Oh, totally. Totally. So that was the first experience. Then I graduated high school, he went on a mission, and I just kept having experience after experience with these boys who were raised in the same faith that I was raised in, who had just no concept of boundaries. I just started to think that if I was going to be kissed, I was gonna be touched, and there was nothing really that I could do to stop it, it was just normal. I came to expect that of good return missionaries, good boys who were leaving on missions, that was just what dating was for me. I didn't think anything different.   0:06:49.7 DB: I think that's the most tragic thing I'm hearing... Well, one, the most tragic thing is that you were abused, I guess the close second is that you weren't even aware that you were abused and taken advantage of, and at what point did you look back and say That was wrong. That wasn't my fault?   0:07:09.4 Sarah: Not until I was married.   0:07:11.3 DB: Oh, wow.   0:07:14.3 Sarah: Yeah. And because I had nothing to compare it to. I didn't know anything about sex, I didn't know anything about consent, I didn't know... And at this point, I didn't even know that girls could masturbate. [chuckle] I literally thought that it was just a boy thing.   0:07:27.2 DB: Oh, you mean physiologically.   0:07:29.4 Sarah: Yes. I didn't think it was possible. I knew absolutely nothing about sex and about body, so this was happening, and I was just thinking, "Oh, this is just normal." So I didn't equate it with abuse, I wasn't having traumatic reactions to it, but I did start to kind of spiral a little bit where I just kind of thought, "Well, if guys are gonna do this to me, then I'm just gonna kiss and have fun with whoever I want and do whatever I want and.   0:07:54.2 DB: Interesting.   0:07:56.0 Sarah: Not worry about the consequences."   0:07:58.1 DB: Tell me a little bit more about that line of thinking, what led you to that as opposed to not dating at all, maybe, or some other... I don't wanna put words in your mouth. What gave you that conclusion, you're just gonna have fun, you're gonna kiss and regardless of the consequences, what led you there?   0:08:19.4 Sarah: I think part of it was I was seeing my dear friends get married, from what I understand, and maybe they had been through similar things and just hadn't talked to me about it, but they were getting married and I wasn't. And so I kind of thought, "Oh, well, I'm just like the girl who's gonna get passed around.   0:08:38.7 DB: Oh my goodness.   0:08:38.7 Sarah: So, I'm gonna have fun in the meantime."   0:08:41.3 DB: So you were taken on a narrative that you were broken or undesired, or would that be fair to say, or what were your feelings or thoughts?   0:08:49.9 Sarah: I wasn't feeling broken, but I was feeling very much... They're just interested in my body, they're not interested in a long-term commitment, they're not interested in marriage, I'm not like these other girls, they're the marriageable type, they're just in it for my body, and at the same time, I was kind of having this body awakening where I was finally feeling my brain match up with my body in maturity, I was feeling like, "Oh, I'm coming into this woman's body, I'm feeling myself become less impulsive, I'm feeling myself develop as mentally as a woman, I'm leaving that childhood teenage years behind, I'm feeling empowered in my body. And at the same time, I'm only being wanted for my body." So I was like, "I'm just gonna use my body however I want."   0:09:42.7 DB: I'm curious, we talked about this a little before we started the podcast, and we shared some thoughts and ideas here, but for the listeners, you're in your mid-20s, just for context, so we're talking about a younger generation, and I realize... I have a good 20 years on you, and dating has always been a struggle, and so I don't know if there's a way to say it's worse now or better or the same, however, in the context that it seems like we as a church have been doing more, whether it be through fire sides or church manuals, really emphasizing how men are supposed to treat women with respect, I think they've done more with that in the last 20 years, yet, you're not alone. This is a story I hear all the time, you're just one of the first, who've been willing to come and talk about it. Tell me what are your thoughts, what's your opinion of why the young men are thinking this way, why do they think this is, okay, or do they think it's Okay?   0:10:49.2 Sarah: Well, and we know that sexual assault and rape has been around for as long as people have been on the earth, that's just... It's just the downfall of man... Well, and woman, both can be abusers or perpetrators, but I think in the context of this, there was this generation of 60s and 70s where it was free love and the world was going so radically in one direction that the church narrative pulled so radically in the other direction. I remember talking to my mom like years later, after I had actually been more assaulted and saying, "Why didn't you tell me, why didn't you tell me what to expect or tell me anything about my body, or just tell me what sex is? And she said, "Your father and I felt like if we talked about it, we were giving you permission to do it." And that to me, was just that mindset of that generation, the policies that were coming out from the church in that generation was all fear-based, shame-based and at the same time, there's more material available, so our children at this time are educating themselves with porn, which is a terrible sex educator, and they're not learning, they're not reconciling what they're seeing, what feeling and what the person in the porn is doing.   0:12:09.5 Sarah: And so if the person in porn who's on the receiving end is showing fear and showing discomfort and these young boys are watching it enjoying it, how are they to not know that it's gonna be different in person with a partner? Now how are they not... They're not gonna know, "Oh, this is a boundary that I'm crossing. This person is scared, their body is showing scared, their face is showing fear, their voice is showing fear, they may not have said, no," but... We've set them up for failure, we've set them up in this position of not knowing they're crossing boundaries, not knowing what consent is, because we've been so afraid to talk about it.   0:12:54.6 DB: I think you articulated it perfectly, this is a constant problem I'm seeing. I usually see two extremes where young men refuse to date or they don't know how to engage in dating at all, and so they don't even... It's not even a physical thing, they don't even know how to involve themselves, and again, this has always been the case, but I've been seeing this kind of this extremism getting bigger and bigger.   0:13:23.1 Sarah: The divide.   0:13:24.4 DB: And then we have the others who, while they understand that porn is bad, and it seems like in the church we've done, we've talked more about porn, we have more anti-porn programs and organizations out there than we've ever had yet this is becoming a bigger and bigger issue. And I think what I was hearing you say was, "Yes, we're told... " And I wanna clarify for the audience too, 'cause it could sound like we're saying, "Oh gosh, the church screwed up in all of its teachings there... " Do you consider yourself an active member now?   0:13:55.0 Sarah: Yeah.   0:13:55.1 DB: And this is...   0:14:00.1 Sarah: Yep, active member, temple holding member, half callings... I was the Young Women's president just barely.   0:14:03.7 DB: Forgive me, I didn't wanna make that as though that was the most important thing here, I just wanna give context that this isn't just criticism, this is crucial for a healthy, engaging dating behavior. Absolutely, and so what we see here is young men who're told what not to do, and you said it before the interview, it's because they're not taught what to do. We could talk all day and night about what not to do, but when you're placed in a situation, all you have to go off of is what you've seen and heard, and that's the don'ts and the bad role models of porn.   0:14:43.4 Sarah: Exactly. And at the same time as a girl, the rhetoric that I was receiving was not what not to do, dress your body in this way so that the boys can control their thoughts, you act this way so that you're not tempting to the boys. There was all this don't, don't, don't. And it very much was my responsibility how the boys and the men in my life treated me, and I have a fantastic father, and I have fantastic brothers who never once crossed any sort of sexual boundary, never even came close to it with anyone that I'm aware of, not with myself and not anyone else, but it was... I remember walking up to the stand to give a Young Women talk thinking, "Oh my gosh, are the men in the ward like looking at my butt?"   0:15:28.3 DB: Oh my goodness.   0:15:29.1 Sarah: As I walk up there, "Is my skirt too tight? Are my hips too wide? Am I... [chuckle] Are they cheating on their wives by lusting after me?"   0:15:37.6 DB: Because... Oh my goodness.   0:15:38.1 Sarah: And I was like 16.   0:15:41.8 DB: First of all, the thought that comes to me is, "No youth, should ever be concerned with that thinking about that," and you're saying those fears and concerns were present because of the modesty lessons that you've received.   0:15:53.0 Sarah: Totally.   0:15:55.7 DB: And thinking that you need to do everything you can to help protect these men, young and old from being tempted.   0:16:03.8 Sarah: Totally.   0:16:06.0 DB: That's heavy.   0:16:07.4 Sarah: Super heavy.   0:16:07.9 DB: This is heavy, and I'm gonna diverge just a little bit here, because I think it's important to speak to... People are probably listening here and saying, "Oh gosh, Well, if young men understand that porn is bad, then why are they behaving... " Okay, I hear that they weren't taught how to behave correctly, a little insight that I've discovered in working with young men is this kind of same thing again, they have been tempted, they cannot resist their urges... Sorry, this is the scripts that they're told once they experience desire, they're on a dangerous path. One support group, and I don't mean to be critical, but the concern is one support group actually says it's Satan's Chemical, and this is an LDS support group, so imagine... So the reason why I'm bringing this up is you as a 16-year-old, you were concerned about married men sinning by looking at you.   0:17:10.4 Sarah: Yes.   0:17:10.4 DB: And now, with young men, what I've seen is something similar, different, but similar in that they start to have this experience where they're getting aroused, they have an erection, they immediately think, they're doomed. I had one 14-year-old tell me, I thought... I thought he... I'm not trying to be loose with my words or silly at all, this is the impression and his countenance when he came in, I thought he killed somebody. This kid was scared and he looked at me and he started to say things like, young man saying things like, "I'm on the path to becoming a rapist, I'm on a path to become a serial killer." He was saying these things, and then he said something that just... That alone was scary and heavy, but where I'm going with this is, he said, "I've also destroyed my... " What was the word he used? He said something to the effect of, "I've disappointed my future wife and let my future kids down."   0:18:18.6 Sarah: That's so sad.   0:18:19.9 DB: Just like you... Well, again, different, but like you're carrying this huge weight, so these young men, what I'm seeing is they feel like they're at this impossible journey.   0:18:32.0 DB: And so, they just give up and they say, "I'm just doing it, I'm already gone." And this poor kid, he was scared out of his mind. So people are probably listening say, "Still why would... " Well, because they're not taught what is good, so all they're going off of is their fear and they're giving in because they recognize, they can't even resist it, it seems impossible. That relate to your experience or what are your thoughts?   0:19:01.9 Sarah: Totally. Well, it's... Looking back now, and even at the time, I thought, "These were good guys." In every other regard, they were good guys. And then, I think it just was... There was no boundary, there was no consent. It's hard because we've damaged both, both genders in this talk, we've told the girls that it's their responsibility and they're... Sorry for the strong language, but they're damned for having the female bodies, and we've told the boys they're damned for having physiological responses that they can't control. [chuckle] And this is the extreme that I think we deal with is... I was 21 years old and my minor was sex education, and I remember sitting at the University of Utah, going and my professor saying female masturbation and going, "That's not possible." I was 21, and I had no clue that that was something that girls did, because I had only ever heard masturbation in reference to boys in the church, and that was the extent of my sex education, that was a mind-blowing thing of like, "Holy cow." We have hurt each other so badly just by not knowing, A How our bodies work. B, our bodies are working normally, and C, let's now communicate with each other. None of that was in my vocabulary.   0:20:30.0 Sarah: So to kind of continue with my story...   0:20:31.2 DB: Please.   0:20:31.5 Sarah: I kinda went through this rough patch where I was like, "I'm just gonna kiss anyone who has two legs and walks into the room." And at the same time, I'm still... I'm the secretary in the Relief Society presidency in my singles ward, and I feel like I'm living these two separate lives. There's the version of me who is dating and there's a version of me who's going to church and I can't reconcile them. And then the age I turned in my mission papers and I said, "I'm gonna go on a mission, that's gonna be what's kinda turned my life around, I'm gonna go on a mission." So I got myself straightened out, I went on a mission, I had a great time, I came back, and then I started dating again. And this guy who I was dating, I thought, "This is gonna be different." He took a couple of weeks to kiss me, we went out for a couple of times, and my mission for me was very empowering because I learned how to speak up and out for myself, I think it's really hard to go on a mission and not kinda gain that confidence, a little bit in yourself. So I came back with that confidence of, I'm gonna...   0:21:47.6 Sarah: Now I know how to say no. And then I started dating this guy, and it's like, "Oh, it's different." He's being such a gentleman. And this could be, this could be the long-term thing, and then things started to change again.   0:22:01.3 DB: My goodness.   0:22:03.7 Sarah: So we had to hung out one night and his parents had left out of town, and he was like, "Why don't you come out, you come over, and we'll just, hang out and it'll be a really good evening, and... " I ended up spending the night. And nothing like nothing happened during the night, we just fell asleep in the bed, we cuddled all night long, there was no sexual pressure, and then it was in the middle of the night, something changed, and then suddenly it was like he was begging me to do all of these things, and I just said, "What is wrong with you? What has happened?" And...   0:22:44.2 DB: You called him out.   0:22:45.2 Sarah: I called him out, and he... And then I just said to him, "When was the last time you looked at porn?" And he disclosed to me that he... And he said he'd had a porn addiction since he was 14. And at this stage in my life, I was like, "Oh, well, that's okay. I know a lot of guys deal with that, so this isn't gonna end our relationship, but I want you to work through it and I want you to talk to the bishop, and I don't expect perfection, but I do want respect." So I'm thinking, I'm so grown up, I'm having this really grown-up conversation. This guy is telling... I won't go too far into what I think about that now, but for the context of the story at this time, I was thinking, "I'm so great that I can work through this with him, and he's so great that he's being honest with me." So I think we're on a great path and we keep dating, and then he just starts walking across that boundary again, and I just keep thinking, "Oh my gosh, I've gotta fix him, I've got to be sexier, so he's not looking at porn. I've got to... " And I was trying so hard not to do the things that he was wanting me to do, and at the same time he was telling me, "If you don't do these things, I'm gonna look at porn."   0:24:02.9 DB: Oh my goodness.   0:24:04.8 Sarah: So again, I'm like, "Holy crap, how am I back at this spot where I'm again responsible for this guy's sexuality?" At the same time he's telling me he loves me and he wants to get married, there was just something about the relationship that was making me stick my heels. And if, "We're not gonna be exclusive, we're gonna date other people, 'cause you can't figure this out, and until you can figure this out, I'm not jumping in with you." And I think honestly, that was probably, is the spirit trying to keep me safe, and I didn't recognize it at the time, but... This was the relationship where it turned violent pretty quick.   0:24:42.4 DB: Physically violent?   0:24:43.3 Sarah: Sexually violent. So there was just a lot of fear involved in it, there was a lot of manipulation, there was me saying, No. Me begging to stop, and there was just, No, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do." But it had never turned into full penetration, and then he at some point in the relationship, he brings up marriage again, "If we get married, I'll be able to stop looking at this porn because we'll be able to do everything that we want. It won't be... "   0:25:14.2 DB: Such a lack of education there.   [laughter]   0:25:17.1 Sarah: Huge lack of education.   0:25:17.9 DB: Or bad education.   0:25:21.6 Sarah: Yeah.   0:25:21.7 DB: Oh my goodness, and...   0:25:21.8 Sarah: And I'm believing it, because I don't have any education either, so... And my minor now is in sex education and I'm like, "Sure...   0:25:30.2 DB: Yeah, I was going to bring that up.   0:25:30.3 Sarah: Great. This will fix it." 'Cause that's what we've been taught in the church is like, you get married and then it's, "No, it's no, no, no, to go, go go, and all your sexual problems are gone."   0:25:38.4 DB: Yeah, it's one of the biggest myths. I don't think it's fair to say a lie, because I think the leadership and the people who are saying this truly believe it, I don't think they're being deceptive, but it just goes to the core of this whole podcast episode is the lack of education. The lack of good education, not just in the negative, but in informative strategies, and I don't even know where that idea came from, that if you get married, the porn habit goes away. That couldn't be further from the truth.   0:26:11.0 Sarah: Right?   0:26:12.1 DB: If it does, it's coincidental. That's mere coincidence. We could talk about that a little bit more, but this is sad, this is the thing that is most upsetting to me when working with people who have a lack of sexual education, 'cause all they know is porn is bad, but they have no idea of what it looks like to have a healthy relationship. So you're dealing with this. Are you able to say... Can you say, how you got out of it, or what did you do?   0:26:46.4 Sarah: Yeah. So there were... So while we were dating, I kept thinking, there's this other guy who I know, we're really good friends. If he would just come to me and just say, "Hey, would you marry me? I would do it in a heartbeat." I just felt so strongly about this friend, and at the same time this other guy is treating me so poorly, and I'm thinking it's all my fault, and I'm feeling so guilty and I'm going to my Bishop and I'm telling my Bishop, "These things are happening. How do I fix them?" And he's giving me more tools than anyone ever had, he's giving me books about pornography, he's giving me... Which were I think, [chuckle] very skewed towards the church's narrative. I don't think they were necessarily a scientifically-based, they were much more along the basis of, "It's an addiction. It's the same thing as doing cocaine", which is absolutely not true.   0:27:44.9 DB: I wanna get into that. And of course, I don't wanna diverge you... I do wanna come back to that. So he was helpful. Was that... At what point... Okay, so what you're saying is that guidance was helpful in ending this current relationship?   0:28:00.5 Sarah: It was helpful in knowing that it wasn't just my fault.   0:28:03.0 DB: Okay.   0:28:03.3 Sarah: And that I could be empowered in the relationship, and he was the first person who kind of said to me like, "If this isn't the future you want, then you don't have to be in it."   0:28:14.2 DB: Good for him.   0:28:15.1 Sarah: Right? And so, but there was still... And that's the hard part about Bishops is that, I think if it had been someone with clinical understanding, they would have said, "This is an abusive relationship," and instead it was like, "If you just don't want porn to be a part of your relationship, just date someone else." And I was like, "Well, that would be nice, but open your eyes, that's not possible."   0:28:40.3 DB: Exactly.   0:28:40.8 Sarah: So at this point, I'm taking my garments off, 'cause I just feel so unworthy and...   0:28:48.7 DB: You weren't instructed to, you just chose to.   0:28:51.1 Sarah: No. And I'm just myself choosing not to take the sacrament, 'cause I just feel so unworthy. And then this guy who I've thought so much about calls me out of the blue and he's like, "Hey, let's go to lunch." And we go to lunch one day and I just thought, "Okay, I'm ending it. I'm ending it because there's something about this guy, I'm gonna end it." So I did, I ended this relationship, then I didn't hear from this guy again. [chuckle]   0:29:20.6 DB: The guy you were interested?   0:29:21.7 Sarah: Yeah. The guy that I was interested, who kinda gave me hope again for men, and I was like, "Well, that's probably better, 'cause I'm in the spot where I probably need to do some healing and working on myself and... " So I don't date anyone for a while, and I work on myself, and then I'm getting lonely, getting really lonely, and I run into this guy who I had been... This guy who I'd been in the relationship with, and I run into him on campus and he's like, "Hey, do you wanna come over?"   0:30:00.3 DB: Even though you've cut it off?   0:30:00.5 Sarah: Yeah, I've cut off. It's been months and I was so lonely that I was like...   0:30:03.9 DB: 'Cause, there's no boundaries.   0:30:05.0 Sarah: Yeah, there's no boundaries and I'm just lonely. So I'm like, "Yeah, of course," it's like, we're good friends and I still cared about him even though, 'cause I didn't know that it was an abusive relationship.   0:30:14.5 DB: Right. And I'm making an assumption here. You just said that you were really lonely, and do you feel like that played into you saying yes also, or...   0:30:26.4 Sarah: Yeah, totally. I just was... I was lonely, all my friends had been married, I'm just back from my mission. [chuckle] It's a hard transition back. We've been dating for seven or eight months when we ended it, so now it's probably like nine or 10 months after, and so we just start talking again, we just started being friends. And then, the other guy who I was interested in at the other time, he calls me up, and he's like, "Do you wanna go on a date?"   0:30:57.9 DB: His timing is interesting.   0:31:00.8 Sarah: At the same time. Yes. So at the same time, these guys are like back in my life at the exact same time, and... So long story short, I ended up saying... This is gonna be so confusing probably to the listeners, but I ended up saying to this guy who I had been dating, "Hey, this other guy asked me out." And, 'cause we were just friends and something... I saw something in his eyes switch. He was like, "Oh, well, yeah, you always talked about him and how much you liked him and how much you respected him, and he's kind of the obstacle that was in our path of us moving forward." I was like, "Not really."   0:31:37.6 DB: Rather he's... The hope in saving you?   0:31:38.9 Sarah: Yeah, I was like, No, it was probably the narrative, but I had, was that I was responsible for your sexuality, for your porn use, and I couldn't fix that anymore, so he ended up asking me to join him for the middle of the day for lunch, and I went over...   0:31:58.3 DB: Which one?   0:31:58.3 Sarah: The guy who I had dated.   0:32:00.7 DB: Okay.   0:32:00.9 Sarah: So I went over to his house during lunch, we left campus together, he drove me there and we were... I remember thinking, "Okay, are we ever gonna eat lunch?" 'Cause we just sat in his room for a while, and then he raped me. And I just remember laying there and it just started off as just normal kissing, and I was like, "Hey, this is weird, but where is this going?" And then it was right back to 17-year-old me who suddenly was being touched and this time I was saying, "No, please stop. No, I don't want this." And it happened anyway. And so that happens, and I looked at him afterwards and he got up and he said, "Let's go back to school." And I looked at him and I hugged him. I hugged him, and I said, "I didn't want that to happen." And I hugged him, 'cause I was so scared that I wasn't gonna be, like I wasn't gonna survive or something, like... My brain just went in to do whatever you need to do to get out of there.   0:33:09.1 DB: Trauma mode.   0:33:09.9 Sarah: Oh, totally. So we got back at school and then I called my... I texted my friend and I texted her and I said, "I just had sex. What do I do now?" And this friend had had sex before marriage as well when she was dating.   0:33:26.6 DB: Not, I was raped, and how do I report him, but what do you do?   0:33:30.1 Sarah: No. No. 100 percent, in my mind it was, "I had had sex." So I call her and she's like, "Oh, it's okay, you'll be okay, it's hard, but you can... You might not be able to take the sacrament for a couple of months, but you can get back and call your Bishop and... " So at this point, I am about to go into work, I'm sick to my stomach, I am shaking and I think, "I just had sex for the first time." So I call my Bishop, I go to the Bishop's office or I go to his house, 'cause it was a Friday night and I'm just devastated, and I walk in and he's like, "What can I do for you?" And I slide my temple garment across the table to him, and I'm like, "I'm no longer worthy of this." And he was like, "Okay, well, tell me what happened?" And so I start saying, start describing to him what happened, and.   0:34:24.6 DB: Is this is the same Bishop that provided you good resources? .   0:34:27.2 Sarah: Yes. Thank goodness.   0:34:27.8 DB: Yes.   0:34:28.4 Sarah: Same Bishop, and he stops me and he says, "No, you didn't have sex. You were raped." And it just suddenly was like, "That's what that was."   0:34:39.2 DB: He called it out.   0:34:39.4 Sarah: He called it out.   0:34:41.1 DB: Excellent.   0:34:41.6 Sarah: Yes, and he said, "I have, I've known you for a while. I've been working with you for a while, from what you've described, your relationship with this guy, you've tried really, really hard, and he has not respected that, and he took full advantage of you and he raped you." And I just sat there stunned. I finally had a word for what was happening, and thank goodness, this Bishop was so in tune and he said, "You know, I don't know how to help you." He said, "I can help you with spiritual healing if you need it, but I don't know how to help you and I'm gonna pay for you to find help." 'Cause at this point, I also didn't have insurance and I was too afraid to tell my parents, so I'm like, [chuckle] "Ah, what do I do?" And I didn't go to the hospital to get any forensic exams done, 'cause I didn't know I had been raped, and suddenly here's this ecclesiastical leader pointing me in the direction of help, and it was life-saving, so he paid for me to see a therapist and I was in therapy within a week, and that made all the difference in my life. And I had a male therapist where... He said, "I'm gonna send you to a male therapist" and I said, "What have you been smoking Bishop? I'm not gonna go sit across from a man and tell him what happened." And he said, "I think that you need a man to listen to you." And so I had to sit...   0:36:02.1 DB: This Bishop wasn't a counsel, he had no training.   0:36:05.1 Sarah: No. No training.   0:36:07.6 DB: This is interesting. Sorry, I think this is actually an important concept that a lot of...   0:36:12.6 Sarah: Totally.   0:36:12.7 DB: People don't realize. When I was working, in my training, I was serving the community in a community center, and that was the first time that I found women who had been raped were asking for male therapists, and that was before I really understood something called Gestalt therapy, if you're familiar.   0:36:30.3 Sarah: Yes. Yeah.   0:36:32.4 DB: And this is their opportunity... There's many reasons to do this, and there are some... I wanna be clear, there are some reasons not to do it either also, and so what this allows, and I'm curious to hear your experiences is, I like how the Bishop said, is it gives a man an opportunity, you get to have a man listen to you and validate you. It also provides the victim an opportunity in a gestalt model for those who aren't familiar, there's this concept of empty chair or imagining that the therapist is your aggressor and you lash out at them in a therapeutic way or whatever, you confront them that way, and so it can be very therapeutic if you're ready for that. It's always hard to tell. But what was your experience? So he suggested this, it looked like you're a little surprised.   0:37:25.1 Sarah: Totally.   0:37:26.4 DB: But you followed through and you found a male therapist?   0:37:28.0 Sarah: Yeah, he actually gave me a referral, he said I... He had had a friend who was a therapist or was very aware of clinical concepts or whatever that... She suggested I see a man. So he gave me the number, I called and made the appointment myself. And I walked in not really knowing what to expect. I had never been to therapy before, and I walked in and I sat down and just kind of started talking about my life and my past and everything that was going on in this relationship and being stuck on the concept of like, "I had lost my virginity." One thing that he said in that first day was, "No. No, you don't lose your virginity, that's a social construct, you don't lose your virginity. No one takes that from you." And that was the beginning of realizing, "Okay, I've got some very unhealthy and harmful narratives in my mind, and I need to change them."   0:38:26.9 DB: So, you're presenting this is as very accepting and like, "Oh, yeah." What's it like that for you at the moment? Did you push back at all? Did you... What was your awakening, healing process like, was it difficult to receive that information or was it healing?   0:38:43.5 Sarah: The difference was, is that he was clinically trained, and so he... As opposed to saying it to a bishop or a parent, he had this clinical training to... I could see the surprise on his face when I was telling him these things that I thought were normal. And so, much like, right now, I'm telling you things and you have these surprise looks on your face and it's so validating.   0:39:04.9 DB: Oh good. [laughter]   0:39:06.9 Sarah: Right? It is 100% validating to think, "These things that I thought were normal, that every girl experienced, are horrifying to this man, and he would never treat a girl this way or a female this way." And I can see it on his face. And he's a member of the church, and this isn't right.   0:39:24.4 DB: The therapist?   0:39:25.3 Sarah: Yeah, this therapist. So that was probably what made me actually accept it, was that, "Here's this guy who believes the same thing I do, who is horrified and shocked and in tears at some point with what I'm telling him and how I've assumed and accepted as a normal behavior."   0:39:47.6 DB: You can't... I don't know, I can't speak for every therapist, but I've heard stories and no two stories are the same. Everybody's experience is unique, but it's heart wrenching each time. I hope, one, I hope I never get used to hearing it. If I do, I need to check myself.   [laughter]   0:40:11.7 DB: It's heart-breaking, and again, to repeat what you're saying, this at the beginning... This is why it's so important for you to speak out and I appreciate that. So, continue from there. What was your journey like? How long were you in therapy? What was your discoveries along that path?   0:40:28.7 Sarah: Well, I think the most important discovery that we made in therapy together was I had this pattern of dating guys who I thought I could fix. 'Cause that was also a narrative that I had taken on is like, "As a disciple of Christ and as a woman of Christ, I have to fix people and I'm gonna make them better." And he said, "You date these people who you think you need to fix, and this is... So, this is like you're going along in your car, and I want you to think of your rape as like you've hit a brick wall. And that brick wall is stopping you from what could be." And I remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, if I had married that guy, this would have been my life, and I would not have known." And it always shocks people when I say this, but I will say it, I'm so grateful for it. I'm so grateful for that experience because I walked out of therapy going, "Not again. No one will ever treat me that way again, and I'm not gonna date a guy who's gonna treat me like that." And long story short, I ended up marrying that other guy.   0:41:33.8 DB: The one that was...   [chuckle]   0:41:34.1 Sarah: Yeah. The one who I always wanted to date while I was dating this other guy. We got our act together and we ended up getting married. So, that was... And he was the exact opposite. He was the guy... And ironically, I thought before this experience, I was never good enough for him, either. He's this amazing, incredible guy, and I was like, "I'm not good enough." And I walked out of therapy going, "Oh, I am so good enough for him, and he would be so lucky to have me."   [laughter]   0:42:06.6 DB: What a wonderful discovery. And you brought up something that we kind of glossed over it. I can't tell you how many women end up marrying a situation like that where, because they don't have this discovery, and I'm not... This is tragic. And it's years later that they discover this was horrible. So I appreciate, and I realize it's probably difficult for a lot of people to hear it. We're clearly not saying the abuse was okay.   0:42:36.4 Sarah: No, not at all.   0:42:39.3 DB: But that, as a result, you were awakened, it was an opportunity to get help and to discover more. I'm sure it wasn't as simple as having that discovery and everything's better.   0:42:53.6 Sarah: No, not at all.   0:42:53.7 DB: What was that journey like from there on out? So, you're dating your husband, and...   0:42:58.3 Sarah: So, we're dating, and I'm thinking, "Okay, that's the end of our... The end of my sexual problems." [chuckle] And again, great guy, we start dating, he takes like a month to kiss me and then it's just like little pecks here and there for months, and I'm finally like, "Hey... "   0:43:14.0 DB: Is he aware of this recent experience yet?   0:43:18.1 Sarah: So at this point, no, at this point...   0:43:21.0 DB: So, he's acting all on his accord, he's not... He's not like over...   0:43:23.2 Sarah: Yes. He's not being over-aware or over-sensitive or over-thinking anything.   0:43:28.6 DB: I think that's important for the listeners to know.   0:43:29.0 Sarah: Totally. Yeah.   0:43:30.2 DB: So this is... You found a guy who's true to his behavior here. This is...   0:43:35.5 Sarah: Yeah. He is living his behavior, he is showing me his behavior. And I'm starting to get worried of like, "Okay, why is this not unfolding? Why are we not progressing at all?" And...   0:43:46.8 DB: Isn't that interesting? You're expecting this will happen.   0:43:51.3 Sarah: Yes. I'm expecting that this will happen, 'cause I wanted to, know... I wanted to be able to say no, I like, I was gonna set those boundaries and like we're gonna talk about them, there's gonna be none of this business going on. And he kisses me one night and I pull away from him and I go, "Why won't you kiss me for longer?" And he goes, "I don't wanna have an erection." And I was like, "What? [chuckle] What are you saying?" And he said, "If I have an erection, I'm being disrespectful to you."   0:44:19.0 DB: Wow.   0:44:19.5 Sarah: And he said, My... He had a Bishop when he was 16, tell him the erections were breaking law of chastity, and I was like, "Hey, buddy, if we're kissing and you don't have that response, there's something wrong. There's a bigger issue." [laughter] I was just was so shocked.   0:44:38.7 DB: You had such insight... You had that insight at that time?   0:44:41.7 Sarah: Yeah.   0:44:41.9 DB: Is that something you learned... Forgive me, I'm coming from maybe a place of ignorance here in making some assumptions. After your traumatic experiences, it would seem like, my naive response here, "Oh, good, you're not. You would... " Some people might feed that behavior and say, "Oh good, now I know I'm safe." What allowed you to say, "Oh, this is actually unhealthy?"   0:45:08.6 Sarah: So, my therapist and I worked a lot through that. 'Cause my therapist was very concerned that I started dating this guy, 'cause he said, "You know, I don't want that...   0:45:16.8 DB: Your now husband.   0:45:17.7 Sarah: Yes, my now husband. "I don't want you to feel like that you're getting into this relationship where he's saving you and you're working through some really traumatic things, and we don't want to get that tied up in your relationship."   0:45:29.1 DB: Good.   0:45:29.5 Sarah: So we worked very closely to... And I was very transparent with my therapist with this, now relation... My husband. And so I was talking to him about these concerns and he said, "Well, why don't you just ask him?" I was, at this point, and we had talked about how it's, an erection is a normal response to any sort of stimulus and not to fear it. So I didn't. I wasn't fearing it. And he said, "Any guy who's gonna respect your boundaries is gonna be able to say, 'My pants will calm down,' and I won't touch you." [chuckle] And I... Yeah, I just... I knew this guy was gonna be that way, there was just something about him that he... From the very beginning, he respected me. So, I have this discussion with him and I'm like, "Why are you not kissing me longer, and he's like, I don't wanna disrespect you, is disrespect for you." And I'm like, "Well, I would like to make out. [laughter] So, I'd like to kiss you a little bit longer." And we've been dating for months and let's see if this is going somewhere, and... So, long story short is, he had a lot of that narrative in his mind that he was so afraid of disrespecting women and girls that he had shut down everything.   0:46:40.8 DB: Like I was saying at the beginning.   0:46:41.8 Sarah: Totally. He is the opposite.   0:46:42.7 DB: That extreme. Yeah. I wanna point out, and I hope you don't feel like I'm putting you on a pedestal here, but it sounds like, and I realized, we're reflecting back on the past, the maturity that you gained to have that conversation is amazing.   0:47:00.8 Sarah: Thank you.   0:47:00.9 DB: It's... I don't want that to come out in a way that if others have been through a traumatic experience, can't do that, as any way shameful.   0:47:10.0 Sarah: Not at all.   0:47:10.1 DB: But I wanna emphasize how significant that is, that you didn't just run away or stay or not say anything at all. There's this culture of, "Don't talk about it at all." But you used it as an opportunity to connect with him. Which is a huge part of what I believe is healing, creating connection.   0:47:31.9 Sarah: Totally.   0:47:32.9 DB: Have an awareness of each other as opposed to assuming and labeling and ignoring or just not discussing. That is... I'm trying not to be extreme in my language, but that is truly impressive.   0:47:47.8 Sarah: Thank you.   0:47:48.7 DB: And I think it's important for the listeners to understand both how difficult that is and the fact that you were able to do it, was beautiful.   0:47:56.7 Sarah: Thank you. Well, and I do... It was so helpful to be falling in love, at the same point in therapy, weekly, [chuckle] and at the same point, having these really open discussions with the suitor. So, we'll fast forward to a couple of weeks and he's doing something playfully, like I think he picked me up and twirled me around and I had a traumatic response and I shoved him. And he stepped back and looked at me and was like, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry." And I was like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you're fine. I just don't like... "   0:48:35.6 DB: You're still taking the responsibility.   0:48:36.9 Sarah: Yeah. I was like, "I just don't like being picked up." And later that night, I thought, "Okay, I've got to tell him what's going on. I don't want him to think that this is his fault, and, well, this needs to be... "   0:48:47.9 DB: Oh, that's right. 'Cause you hadn't shared with him yet. So this was your opportunity.   0:48:49.0 Sarah: Yeah. So, at this point he has no idea what's going on. And so I sat him down on the couch and I said, "Listen, this is what's happened, and I understand if you wanna walk away." And he was like, "Why would I walk [chuckle] away?" And he just sat and cried.   0:49:04.7 DB: What a different experience?   0:49:05.9 Sarah: So different. He sat and cried with me, he held me while I cried, and he... I don't know how he did this, but he managed his traumatic response in front of me. So, he cried, he... And I told him, "This is a lot for you to handle, I understand that, if you need to tell someone, if you need to tell your parents, if you need to tell a bishop, if you need to tell a friend, please tell someone so you're not holding this by yourself. I have my people who are holding it with me, please get your people." And he... That's when he had his traumatic response of like, "I'm gonna kill this guy, I'm gonna find him... " That's when he had his response to my trauma, but that I was... I didn't have to carry it. And I think that's why we are married. [chuckle] He was able to separate that. [laughter]   0:49:51.1 DB: Yes. And I'm gonna point that out. How crucial that is, again, not to put you on a pedestal, but your ability to create differentiation in the relationship early on and not feel like, while you're communicating and being open and creating connection, you also emphasized, "I'm carrying my load, I've got my people, and if this is concerning, the most effective way to deal is get your own people. Let's not blend our trauma together. Let's support each other, but let's not be each other's therapist."   0:50:22.7 Sarah: Oh yeah.   0:50:23.0 DB: There's a fine line there, of course, but... Very impressive.   0:50:28.5 Sarah: And his mom has been a therapist, and so I said, "Please talk to your mom about this." And I was trying to not be ashamed, and so I didn't want this to be a secret. So I didn't want... You know, [chuckle] to be like, "Oh, my girlfriend's gone through something, but I can't tell my parents about it." It was like, "If I'm a part of your family, this is a part of my life, like this, we're not gonna put it in the closet, it's just gonna be out there. It's what it is." And so our relationship progressed. He went to therapy by himself. He came to therapy with me a few times, and we fell in love, and we got married and I was like, "Okay, here we go, here comes sex. Real sex."   0:51:05.5 DB: Oh-oh.   0:51:06.1 Sarah: Good sex.   0:51:07.1 DB: So, it is good, everything's great, happy ever after, right?   0:51:11.4 Sarah: We would like to think, right? So, back to my Bishop, great insightful Bishop, where we are... We're getting ready to get married and he pulls us in his office and he says, "You guys, this is gonna be hard for Sarah. It's gonna be really hard for Sarah to go from these traumatic experiences to, Let's do it all in one night." And he says, "I'd like you to explore each other's bodies." And he said, Your only... He gave us limits and he said, "Your only limits are oral and penetrative sex."   0:51:45.5 DB: Your Bishop counselled you this?   [chuckle]   0:51:46.6 Sarah: My Bishop.   0:51:47.3 DB: I want his name and number.   [laughter]   0:51:49.3 Sarah: Alright.   0:51:50.4 DB: This is phenomenal. When you heard him say that, what was your response?   0:51:56.0 Sarah: Well, I was like, jaw dropped. Because my husband's bishop, at that time, he was like, "You can't touch each other at all. Satan's gonna be trying to destroy you as a family, and if you... "   0:52:08.4 DB: Oh, yeah. I hear that all the time.   0:52:09.7 Sarah: Yeah. [chuckle] "If you touch each other at all, you're gonna have sex, the passion is just so alive, no touching yourselves"   0:52:14.9 DB: You no longer have agency.   0:52:16.3 Sarah: Right. Like, we're children again. And then we had my bishop who was like, "Please get to know each other before you have sex." And we talked about it as a couple, and we decided, "Okay, what is appropriate for us? What do we feel like we can handle? What's our plan in case we start to feel overwhelmed? What happens if I have a traumatic response? And what are our boundaries?" And we talked about those things that people don't talk about in their marriage for years. And it just set us up on what I thought was the perfect happy ever after.   0:52:51.2 Sarah: So, we get married in the temple. We have a great sex life for a couple of months and then I can't get there. I can't climax. And I remember, [chuckle] it was Valentine's night, I had bought, on a meager student income, I had bought this red piece of lingerie and I was so excited. And I was anticipating it so much and looking forward to connecting so much, and then I was feeling the feeling, feeling the build-up and then, boom, exhaustion, can't get there. My husband gets up and puts his garments back on and I just remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, I'm so broken. I am so broken." And that was my spiral back down hill, that night. That's when everything changed from it being something that my husband and I participate in together where my pleasure matters as much as his pleasure, and we need to be clear that my bit does. My husband has never once pressured me, he's always been 100% understanding. We both just didn't have the tools. So, this is the spiral of...   0:54:06.0 DB: You not only didn't have the tools, 'cause that's my concern in general, is no one's taught how to have intimate relationships, sex and orgasm. Who teaches that? But you're up against also trauma.   0:54:20.1 Sarah: Yeah.   0:54:21.3 DB: And so you've got a few fronts here that you're battling, and this is happening at this moment. So, where do you go from there?   0:54:29.3 Sarah: So months progress and I'm just becoming increasingly more depressed and I'm feeling increasingly more isolated. I started seeing a different therapist, I had moved, so I had a different therapist. It was a sex therapist. And the sex therapist kept telling me it's this trauma that's in the way of you being able to connect with your husband, and I was sitting there saying, "It's not the trauma. I've worked through so much of the trauma. Of course, I have bad nights where something triggers me and I can identify the trigger and work through it, but it's not the trauma that's preventing me from this." So I tried a different sex therapists, and I tried an OB-GYN. And I tried a different OB-GYN. And the problem was, is I would feel the build-up and I would... We'd be in the moment and we'd be feeling really, really good, and then I would just hit this wall of exhaustion. And it felt like I was being knocked off my feet. And it was time and time and time again, and I just started feeling like, "I'm only here to be like this vessel for other men's pleasure. And it's not... My husband's not making me feel this way, this is how God designed my body to be a vessel for other men's pleasure, not my own, for other men's pleasure."   0:55:45.1 Sarah: And that was the beginning of just months, years of severe depression and anxiety, and it got so bad that I had suicidal ideation. Because my husband and I have always been able to be so transparent from the beginning, I was able to disclose to him, that I was having these ideations and he said, "Okay, you've gotta get help, like this is obviously not working." It terrified him enough that I could see on his face of like just the idea of that was so scary, I don't think I could ever go through with it, which kind of brought me back to reality. But... So, nothing's changing, I'm just super depressed. I'm seeing doctors who are saying, "We're just gonna prescribe you these anti-depressants, it will kill your libido. Here's some anti-anxiety, work on your trauma." So I start EMDR. And so, for those of the listeners, it's a great form of trauma therapy where you process it without really describing it, so you're not re-victimizing yourself, you're processing more of what your body is holding on to. So, I go through it and I'm like, That's not the trauma. It's not... There's something that's stopping me, physio... My physical body is stopping me.   0:57:01.0 Sarah: There's something in the way. I can feel it. So again, I'm just hopeless. No one's believing me. Every single person is telling me it's your trauma, which was at this point, more traumatic than my trauma.   0:57:13.5 DB: Interesting, yes. I was actually gonna point that out and... Well, I won't jump ahead here. I wanna reflect back on that but... So what was it? What did you end up discovering?   0:57:27.2 Sarah: So I... So we move out of state, and I'm talking to this woman in my new ward and something... She was a doula. So for those who aren't aware of what a doula is, they're basically a birthing partner. So they... She professionally goes in and helps women deliver their babies as their advocate, and I had... She had mentioned to me that what got her interested in it was she had had a traumatic response giving birth because she had been molested as a child, and that resurfaced for her during her birth. And I was like, "Holy crap. That might happen to me." And so I disclosed to her my history of sexual assault, and then I disclosed to her my problem of not being able to climax. And she didn't bat an eye. She said, "Oh, go visit a pelvic floor physical therapist." And she gave me a name. So I made this appointment and I go in, and at this point, I have kind of like this PTSD from visiting providers. 'Cause none of them believe me. Everyone is telling me... It ranges from, "It's your trauma," to, "Let go of how you view yourself. Your body image part... " And I'm like, "I've never once said that I don't like the way I look in sex."   [laughter]   0:58:36.5 Sarah: Everyone's pointing out these emotional things or these things that we've put on women that I'm like, "It's none of those. I'm not telling you like... Listen to me, please." So I walk in, and I sit down, and she started crying, this physical therapist, and she said, "You are the hardest client to get in my doors because everyone gives up on you."   0:59:01.7 DB: Mm-hmm. Yes. Gives up on you in the sense of they think it's something else?   0:59:09.4 Sarah: Yes.   0:59:09.6 DB: Yes.   0:59:09.9 Sarah: They think it's something else. And she said, "It is so common." She said the clients who have it the most are religious clients, which I think is ironic.   0:59:17.2 DB: That's well-studied, actually.   0:59:18.1 Sarah: Very religious people and athletes. And I was both. So she... I remember her saying, "You'll have an orgasm within a month." And I was going like, "Yeah, right."   0:59:27.8 DB: So let me pause you there before we get on to the healing, hopefully, is...   [laughter]   0:59:32.4 DB: That's what I was wanting to speak to, is in no way is this a criticism. I am so thankful for the research and the skills that trauma therapists and trauma training in general has brought to clinicians. However, what I'm seeing is an imbalance in assessment. A lot of clinicians are jumping to trauma, which isn't wrong, and trauma is still playing a part of your life.   1:00:04.3 Sarah: Totally.   1:00:07.5 DB: However, there's... Your body is made up of a bunch of more things than just trauma and just the things that you were bringing up. Everything needs to be explored, and I think that's a critical part of assessment. And I'm in a tricky spot as a male therapist who often will engage in thorough assessment. Like yes, fully recognize there's trauma. Is there potentially anything else biologically going on, emotionally going on that's disconnected from that? And that's often perceived as minimizing trauma, and it's a tricky place to be in because... Absolutely, there's trauma there, but I'm seeing a lot of what's happening, what happened to you, where your actual health concern wasn't related to the trauma, at least not the majority of it. And finally, somebody found out. You found the right person, rather, and they guided you. So do you mind sharing what the procedure was? I think I know where you're going with this.   1:01:04.1 Sarah: Yeah. So it was just pelvic floor physical therapy. So it was all internal work. So basically she inserted her fingers into my vagina and was able to release the tension. And what she said that was so profound was she said... And at this point, I have my MSW, and I'm like, "I'm a therapist. I'm gonna be a therapist. This is my passion." So I'm talking to her about all these terms, and she's like, "Yeah, don't you guys like read that book, The Body Keeps the Score, and don't you guys understand that you hold trauma in your body?" And I was like, "Yes. Actually, I do know that." And she's like, "Well, where do you think you hold it?" And I said, "Well, I don't know. Like my whole body?" She said, "In your pelvic floor." Mind blown, right? So what she did is in her assessment, she found that... And she likened it to bicep curls. She said, "Your vaginal walls have to go up and down like you would do a bicep for you to orgasm." And she said, "Yours are so tight that they can't loosen. They can't physically make that sensation happen. They can't have that... They won't.   1:02:15.0 Sarah: So we did some exercises and I had to relearn how to do certain things. I had to essentially learn how to orgasm, and that was the beginning of happiness. That was the beginning of the fairy tale, for me, it was. [chuckle] Learning, becoming one with my body, and when I say one with my body, for anyone who has a period, who has a uterus, who has a pelvic floor, that includes you man, understand what's going on with your pelvic floor. That is where you're holding your stress, where you're holding your trauma. And since then, I have been able to identify when I suck in, and I know I do it. When I am triggered or when I'm stressed, or if I'm uncomfortable or if I'm feeling vulnerable, I can suck in my muscles, and I feel it. It's like this, "Please don't look at me," and I'm sucking in. It's totally this trauma-fear response, and I can now push myself back out and to relax, and I have control of what's going on with me. And that's the first time that's ever happened. I was able to orgasm. We have a great sex life now. We've had... Since had a baby and that didn't break me. I thought that was gonna ruin me again. I wasn't afraid to have a child, and it helped bringing a child in. I used the same things that I learned in therapy, and I survived.   1:03:46.8 DB: What a story. Not a story. What a life.   1:03:51.8 Sarah: Yeah.   [laughter]   1:03:52.7 DB: My goodness, that journey. So was it... What the doctor did, did that get you to successful orgasm? Was there other things that you did to help yourself along?   1:04:03.3 Sarah: Yeah, so basically, what she would do is she would use her fingers on muscles and release them so much like you would lengthen a muscle or much like going to the gym, right? You learn how to turn your muscles on and off when you're lifting weights, and she helped me learn how to do that, then I had to learn how to breathe again. 'Cause I was breathing incorrectly, like who even knows that you can breathe incorrectly. But I was breathing in, sucking in, doing... Any time I worked out, sucking in, holding that pelvic floor in tight. I learned to masturbate. That was a big one, right, learning my body.   1:04:42.2 DB: What is the purpose of that? Just to... Was it to help heal? Or what was the purpose of masturbating?   1:04:47.9 Sarah: The purpose of that was to, A, figure out how my body worked, right? How... What feels good? Now that I know my body can react to pleasure, what feels good? We started over, basically. So... And that came from... And this is the part that blows my mind is how we expect our young people or any people to walk into a marriage not knowing their body. So I learned my body with that. I've helped my husband learn my body, so his confidence grew, my confidence grew, our intimacy was connected. For the first time, it felt like it was a partnered experience.   1:05:23.8 DB: This is important for a lot of Latter-day saints to understand. And I'm not gonna sit here and say that masturbation should be a part of everyone's life. However, when we as... Especially Latter-day saints who are clinicians make a blanket statement, which I've seen recently in social media and some pretty well-respected therapists who are LDS, say that any therapist who encourages masturbation is not in line with their faith, right? It's... Yeah, thanks for the eye roll.   [laughter]   1:06:07.1 DB: It's... The potential damage of that message is destructive to say the least. I've seen so many women who have been abused, who have had similar life experiences, and they carry that on with them because that message was communicated to them, and they feel understanding their body is breaking some eternal covenant.   1:06:40.7 Sarah: Oh. Totally.   1:06:42.8 DB: It's the only thing we see... In the medical industry that seems to be the exception within our faith, is you go to a doctor and get some drugs to help you or you do... And I hate to use that analogy because I don't even think they're the same in a sense of risks or anything like that. But masturbation is a form

It was such a pleasure to talk to Sarah Harkness. Sarah is a former partner at Arthur Andersen who had a career in corporate finance and then as a non-executive director. She is now a literary late bloomer. She has self-published a book about the Victorian artist Nelly Erichsen. She has an MA in Biography from the University of Buckingham, where she studied with with Jane Ridley. She won the Tony Lothian Prize, 2022. And she is now writing a biography of the Victorian publisher Alexander Macmillan and his brother which will be published next year. We talked about Sarah's career, her long-held ambitions, what she learned from corporate finance, her views on talent spotting, Alexander Macmillan, how Sarah would try to discover other late bloomers lurking in the wrong jobs, and why a business career helps you to understand Victorian literature.Being a Late Bloomer and Alexander MacMillanHenry: Are you a late bloomer?Sarah: My husband says I should be very annoyed at that question because he says I've been marvellous all along. I think I'm a late bloomer if in the blooming bit, which is that I'm now doing something that makes me really unconditionally happy, whereas before I did a lot of stuff that was sometimes important and sometimes well paid, but I never enjoyed it half as much as what I'm doing now.Henry: So, let's start with just briefly, what are you doing that makes you really happy now?Sarah: I have a contract to write a book that a proper-publishing house says they're going to publish. So I'm writing a biography, a double biography called The Brothers of Daniel and Alexander Macmillan, who founded MacMillan publishing 180 years ago. And it's taken me a while, but I've got an agent and I've got a publishing contract, and I need to submit a manuscript in the next eight months, and it will come out in 2024 all being well. And that's making me very happy.Henry: Good, and that's the grandfather or great-grandfather of the prime minister?Sarah: Daniel is the grandfather of the prime minister, and Alexander, who's the one who really built the business after Daniel died, is his great uncle.Henry: So an interesting family for more than just their business interests.Sarah: Yeah. And I mean, fantastic achievers themselves because Daniel and Alexander were born into absolute poverty on the West Coast of Scotland. Their father was a carter, who died when they were young boys. Daniel left school at 10, Alexander when he was 15. And by the mid-1860s, Alexander is one of the literary hosts of London, and within two generations, they have an offspring who will be prime minister and married into the Duke of Devonshire's family, it's quite a climb.Henry: So, what we're talking about, this is really the Victorian self-made man?Sarah: Absolutely. Samuel Smiles and all his glory, absolutely.Henry: Yeah, yeah, we love Samuel Smiles.Sarah: Yeah, same.Henry: So, where does your interest in that type of subject or person come from?Sarah: Well, there's a basic love of all my period, of all the periods of history and all the periods of literature, Victorian times would be absolutely bang on is what I know most about. I'm very comfortable working in that time, and I love the books and the poetry from that time. The way I found it was very serendipitous, which was that my husband collects art and had found a lot of art by a big, very unknown Victorian woman painter. And I researched her life, and the more I researched it, the more I thought I need to write this down, and it turned into a book that no one would publish, but people said to me, "Write about someone we've heard of and come back to us," and that's a really hard question because almost everyone you've heard of has got a book. That's why you've heard of them, but I had a stroke of luck, which was literally in the research on the book about... The artist is called Nelly Erichsen, and in my research on her, she was a neighbour of the MacMillan family in South London in the 1870s, and related by marriage, sort of in a hop and a skip to the MacMillan family, so she knew the MacMillans, she stayed with the MacMillans. And I did research the MacMillan family to write about Nelly, and there wasn't a book, there haven't been a book since the 19... Since 1940. So there was an opening to do a book because most people have heard of MacMillan Publishing, most people would think it was interesting to understand how that had been started and no one has written about it for 80 years. So that was the stroke of luck, I think.Henry: So it comes from a kind of a long-term immersion in the period and a very indirect discovery of the subject matter?Sarah: It does, it does. I mean, I have been talking about Nelly Erichsen and her bit of Tooting where she lived and the people that she knew for, gosh, nearly 20 years now, so I mean it is a long immersion, but it took me a very long time to have confidence to show anyone what I was writing about it.Early interest in VictoriansHenry: Yeah. And that if we go back 20 years, is that where you start sort of reading and working on this?Sarah: Yes.Henry: Or had you been reading about the Victorians from earlier?Sarah: I think that... I mean, I did PPE at Oxford, but my favourite paper and finals was Victorian social political history, so the 1860s is bang on the period. I think all the time I was working and having a career, I was reading my way through Trollope and Dickens and George Eliot, so... And Tennyson. So that in that way, and it's the sort of art I like, so it is definitely my spot, but I had never thought about researching online, finding out about anyone and writing it down until, yeah, 15 years ago when I started doing that.Henry: But when you started doing that, you'd actually had years of reading the novels, being immersed in the period, it goes back, you were ready, you weren't just coming to this out of nowhere?Sarah: Yes, I wasn't, I wasn't. And it does remind me that about... Well, it was at the time when my children were babies, I wanted to give up work and study Victorian literature. I mean, I felt then that it was something I wanted to do, and I had an idea of writing... The book that inspired me was some Anthony Trollope's The Way We Live Now.Henry: Fantastic book.Sarah: And I was fascinated, yeah, fascinated by the Melmotte character and I wanted to do an MA or something that would allow me to write, to use the knowledge I had at the city today against what was Trollope writing about, I thought that would be interesting. So I have thought about it 25 years ago, and that had to absolutely no encouragement from anyone to do anything about it. So I didn't, I kept working, but it's funny that that's almost where I've ended back up, which is looking at Victorian literature.Henry: Yeah, it's like a... It's a deep vein that runs through your life and now it's come to the surface.Sarah: It is, it is, absolutely.Sarah in the City: business expertise as a literary advantageHenry: So, you've hinted it that you did PPE, you were in the city, tell us, because you were already blooming before, you are not a late bloomer, you're a repeat bloomer, tell us what was happening when you weren't being a Victorian writer.Sarah: So, I went from Oxford into the city into a corporate finance house that was part of NatWest Bank, so we call that NatWest markets, and I did corporate finance, so flotations, mergers, takeovers, raising money from 1983 right the way through to 1990s. In the 1990s, I left London and moved up to Yorkshire, but I kept working. And at that point, I had small children, so I was working three or four days a week, working in Leeds doing corporate finance. And then there was a big excitement in 1998 because I left NatWest and took my team into Arthur Andersen, which at the time caused a bit of a fuss and a bit of a stir. And I had three or four... Four years at Arthur Andersen. And then Arthur Andersen went into liquidation. And at that point, I'd been doing corporate finance for nearly 20 years and I'd had enough of it, and there were a lot of young and unpleasant young men coming up who didn't think that women in their 40s with children should be stopping them doing what they wanted to do. So I did head-hunting for a little while, and then I started becoming a non-executive director, so I became plural. And I'm still plural, I still do trustee jobs, and audit jobs, non-executive director jobs.Henry: So you, in three different ways, at Arthur Andersen, and then as a head-hunter, and then as a non-exec, you've actually been a senior person. You've been running an area of a business, you've had that kind of oversight?Sarah: Yeah.Henry: Does this help you... You've got the background reading Trollope and understanding the character of Melmotte, but you've also got the background as actually a business person. So when you look at someone like MacMillan, if you hadn't done that career, you would have had less insight. Do you sort of...Sarah: I think that's right, I think that's right. I've spent some time in the archives just the other week looking at the partnership deeds from when he set the business up. I've looked at... There had to be a court case in Chancery when Daniel's widow died because she died in testate and there was a risk that the partnership would have to be dissolved and split around his children. So to me, that makes sense. The big risks that he takes, like moving from Cambridge to London, and then at the moment, I'm really interested in him opening an office in New York, which he did in 1869. I mean to me, that is about a business risk. And then, this little small bit. So at the time when I was running an office in Leeds, I was very conscious of how vulnerable you feel when you are not in the head-office, when you are running a satellite. And I've been reading this week, the letters coming back from New York to London, from the poor chap that Alexander sent out to New York. And I can... I mean, I could have written those letters, you know, "Just tell me what's going on?" "What are your plans?" "What do you mean your son's coming to work here?" "Is that alright? Is that a good sign?" And so that to me is business as well, so I do recognise a lot of it.Henry: Yeah, that's a timeless problem, especially in big-business today, right, global businesses?Sarah: It is, it is. "How do you make everyone feel equally important?" and, "How do you manage something that's the other side of the ocean?"Henry: So your book will be interesting, not just from a sort of literary and social-history perspective, but for people in business or people trying to understand how to be a manager.Sarah: I hope so, I hope so. Alexander did an enormous amount all on his own, but as I move on, he's going to start running a more complex business. And I haven't really gotten into that yet. He's got one partner and he's just set up, sent someone to New York. But it will become more interesting. And then, how he's gonna bring the sons and nephews into the business, is gonna be fascinating. Because they didn't all want to come in at the same time and he's got to manage that as well. So it is a business book.Henry: So he's a sort of... He's a great publisher with an eye for a book, he's a great businessman who can cut deals and manage money, and he's also important as a people manager.Sarah: He is, he is, and seems to manage that well. Other firms are not nearly as successful as MacMillan, avoid the wrong people. He never really gets anything... The big calls, he doesn't get them wrong. He never has a big failure. If he launches a magazine, he goes on supporting it, it survives. If he launches an office in New York, it becomes... MacMillan, New York, becomes bigger than MacMillan, England. He doesn't make bad calls, he is a good manager.Henry: And where does that come from? Because he grew up... He did not grow up around business people. Where does that come from?Sarah: He certainly didn't, he certainly didn't. I don't know, that's really interesting. I mean, I think he was much more entrepreneurial than his brother was. The business really takes off when Daniel dies. Daniel was driven by a Christian missionary spirit. He was driven by Christian socialism, he wanted to bring good-quality and religious literature to the masses and the working man. And he saw it as... He wasn't well enough to go to India, so this was his mission. Alexander goes along with that and is fascinated by the Christian socialist side, but he also wants to make money. And I think some of it might just be, you know... He wakes up one day in 1857, and suddenly he's responsible for eight children, his wife, and a widow, people who work for him. He really has to grip it or he'll sink. And he grips it. But how and why? Apart from sheer bravery, I don't know how he got to do that. He didn't have any models, he wasn't being mentored by anyone else in the industry, they all saw him as a Scottish upstart. So there's one guy he talks to who's a publisher in Edinburgh called MacLehose, but he becomes much more successful than MacLehose.Henry: Was he a late-bloomer?Sarah: Alexander? So when Daniel dies, he... How old is he? He's nearly 40, he's nearly 40. And up until then, yes, he's been the second fiddle in the business. He's had a ton of energy. I mean, if you research him, he's living in Cambridge, running a shop in Cambridge, but he's also... He's on the board of the Working Men's College that they establish. He's doing stuff with the YMCA in Cambridge. He's a parish overseer. He has a ton of energy, and he talks about... You know, he was up reading throughs till 2:00 in the morning, and he was up again at 6:00 to get a train to London. His wife must have been pulling her hair out, I would think. [laughter] So he was a man of phenomenal energy, and not good health, he suffered badly from sciatica and various other problems. He was sometimes frustrated with pain, but he never gave up. He's quite a hero.Henry: Yeah, he is. He sounds really interesting. I'm really looking forward to this book. So, I want to go back over your... We've had the summary of your life. I want to get into some details because it's really, really interesting how you kept to yourself those interests and ambitions for so long, and obviously lots of people do that. Lots of people leave university and they've got a thing that they really, they're passionate about, but they end up as an accountant or whatever, and it just sort of slowly dies, or they realise they're not quite as interested as all that, or life gets in the way, or they have kids. Why didn't it go away for you? Because when you were a senior at Arthur Andersen, you were pretty busy, right?Sarah: Yeah, and I don't think, if you'd said to me... If you had said to me when I was a senior at Arthur Andersen, "Would you still like to write a book?" I just said, "Don't be daft, of course not." [laughter] But my huge frustration with Andersen, and I had some mentoring at the time from a coach who said to me, "The problem you have is that you have a person who needs choice and the more involved in one particular job you get, the more you push, get pushed down a tunnel, the less happy you will be, Sarah, because you like to wake up every morning and you think, I'm gonna do something different today. What am I going to do today? What am I going to do today?" And that's the life I now have. And it's the life I've had since the day I walked out of Arthur Andersen in 2002, which is every day I've done something a bit different. And the lucky break that happened to me was the collapse of Andersen could have been a disaster, but actually it gave me a lump sum and it gave me freedom to explore, bend my career to suit my children and my circumstances, and it gave me time to discover the things I liked doing.Henry: Do you think... So one thing that separates a lot of late bloomers from early bloomers, although as discussed you were an early bloomer, but it's that early bloomers often have a mentor or they belong to a small group of their peers. So they have people that they can experiment with and have ideas with, or they have someone saying, "Don't be an idiot, you need to do this, why haven't you written to that person or whatever." And late bloomers often just don't have this.Sarah: No.Henry: But I've got a little theory that it probably wouldn't have made any difference. And that in a way, you're... Tell me if this is right, you're quite a divergent person.Sarah: Yeah.Henry: But you were in a very narrow life.Sarah: I was.Henry: And the only mentorship that you required was for someone to say, as they said to you, you're in the wrong game here.Sarah: Yes.Henry: And you needed to take your own time, you needed to take your own path. There's something innate about, or just in your personality, that means you were never going to write a book when you were 25.Sarah: No.Henry: And the other experiences you gathered along the way were part of that divergence. What do you think of that as a sort of model of you and of other late bloomers?Sarah: I certainly think that there was no way when I was in my 20s and 30s, anyone that I knew, socialised with or worked with would have had any interest at all in what interested me. I mean, none of them read. None of them went to the theatre like I went to the theatre. None of them had the interest in film that I had. And at the time, I was married into the medical profession, and they absolutely weren't. So I mean at business they weren't interested, medics aren't interested, or don't have time to be fair to them. So it had to be just in my head and what I read and what I started listening to once you started getting audio books and I had time. So definitely there was no one around in my 20s who would have given me any encouragement to do anything different, and I was sucked into a job that was very high, very exciting, very high pressure and very rewarding, and then I had children, which we know, really upped the confusion of life. And I was just lucky that at the age of 40 I was relaxed and comfortable enough to be able to start spending my time with people who were encouraging.Henry: How unusual do you think it is to have... You do PPE, you work in corporate finance, but you've also got a strong interest in literature and the arts, and as you say, you don't do...Sarah: Really unusual. I can think... Of all the people I worked with right through for NatWest under Andersen, I can remember the one guy who, if you went on a business trip with him would open his briefcase to get out a book. He was a wonderful man, he was called Simon Metgrove, and he carried poetry around his briefcase. I remember him. He is the only one. I mean, no one else did, they read the... They read the FT, they talked about business. There was a lot of heavy drinking. It just, it wasn't part of the culture at all, and I didn't live with anyone who read like I read either. So it was completely me on my own blowing my own little furrow.Henry: Where does this joint interest come from? Is that parents, school, Oxford? Is it something you just always remember?Sarah: I think from my parents. I think particularly from my mother who had, came from a very, very poor background, left school as fast as she could when war broke out and got a job at the age of 16. And then after she married, my dad became a more senior civil servant. My mum discovered she needed and wanted to educate herself, so when I was growing up, my mother was doing WEA classes, and talking to me because I was by far the youngest child, so I was more or less at home on my own with her. She would talk to me about an essay she had to write on Jane Austin or she was reading T.S. Eliot, and she would talk to me about it all the time. So that was very encouraging. And she knew poetry, and that's... I've passed on to my children who are all interested in literature in their way. That background, if you need to... You know the stories, you know every Jane Austin, you know your Dickens, you know your poems. That comes from my mum and my dad as well. Yeah.Henry: Sounds like your mum was a bit of a late bloomer.Sarah: I think she was a frustrated, never bloomed because she was that generation of just they stated at home, and it didn't do her any good at all. She was quite an unhappy woman.Henry: Do you have her in mind as a sort of model of she went back and started doing that education and was that something that was just with you?Sarah: I think it probably was, I think it made sense to me that I could do an MA when I was 55, because my mother would have thought that was a sensible thing to do. If I had the time and the money, and then why wouldn't I do it? So yeah, it seems perfectly sensible to me, I didn't think it was odd. My husband had done one as well, and he was... I've never had any education at all, and did an MA ten years ago, so.Henry: Oh great.Sarah: Yeah, University of Buckingham.Henry: Oh very good.[laughter]Henry: And how did you end up at Oxford?Sarah: Oh, I came from a tiny Grammar School in Dorset that sent one girl to Oxford or Cambridge about every three or four years, so it felt like quite a lonely process. And I had massive imposter syndrome. I didn't get into the college I applied to, but there's a college in Oxford, Mansfield, that used to just collect all the best people that didn't get into any of the other colleges. We were all there with chips on our shoulders because we haven't got into some St. John's or Balliol and the others. And it was an incredibly good atmosphere, but it's still, there were two issues, one was Oxford was still dominated by the public schools, and I was a Grammar School girl.And Oxford was dominated by the big confident academic colleges, and I was at the college no one had heard of, so spinning out of that and into the city, just felt like that was a bit of a weird stroke of luck, because even though I was at Oxford doing PPE, I didn't feel like I was... I didn't feel like I had... It would never have occurred to me to become academic when I left university. I wasn't going to get a first, I wasn't going to do that.Henry: But did this thing about imposter syndrome and sort of being in a marginal position, is that quite good because it does encourage you to sort of keep seeing yourself as divergent and keep seeing yourself as not quite in the right place. It preserves that energy of well, I'm here, but I'm not going to stay here, whereas if you'd got into the right college and being more accepted, maybe you would have just a bit more easily slipped into a, staying on the track, if you like.Sarah: Maybe, maybe. But I don't feel that I was a very assertive person when I started work. To me, working my way up through the city, I would contrast myself with mostly men who were working around me, all of whom had a time table, I've got to be an assistant director by this age and I'm going to be director by this age, then I'm going to go out and join a real company and I'm going to make money. And I was just wanted to keep my job and keep doing it.And not get in any trouble. But then what used to happen is I would get to know someone at my level, and I think, well, other clever people in the next room because he's not very bright, and then why is he gonna get promoted and not me? Because I think I'm better. So I think there's a bit of that chippiness or edginess which makes you... Which can make you push on a bit harder, but it certainly didn't drive me. I was always a bit surprised, to be honest, I was always a bit surprised when I got promoted, I was a bit surprised when Andersen hired me and I was very surprised when that got in the papers. It was always a bit of a surprise to me. So I didn't have much confidence.Henry: As you talk about your background, it sounds a bit like there are parallels between you and McMillan. You don't come from an Arthur Andersen background, but there you are and you become very successful, just like he didn't come from that. Is that part of what interests him to you, like, are you writing about yourself?Sarah: Well, I haven't thought of that, but I think I absolutely am sensitive. So I feel for him when I know how much he did for certain Victorian writers, and I go to their memoirs and diaries and letters, and he hardly gets a mention. And I know because I can see all the letters he wrote to them where he said, "You've got to change the title, you've got to take out half that book, why don't you write about this instead." I can see what he was giving to them, and then you go to the index of some of their books, and he gets a one line or it mentions that this is something I wrote in Macmillan magazine. I am very sensitive to Alexander 's, feeling that people took him for granted, didn't give him any due reward, and I suspect he... Yeah, I suspect, I do imagine that he felt some of the stuff that I felt, which is, have I got any right to be in this room and actually now I've met them, they're not a bright as I thought they were gonna be. And you could see his confidence grows in the '60s, he definitely becomes a lot more assertive with his authors during the '60s.Henry: Oh, really?Sarah: Yeah, the more he spends time with them, the firmer he gets about I'm not publishing that, this isn't good enough, he takes on Lady Caroline Norton and that's quite a brave thing to do.And I think he wins, so that's very hard to tell.Henry: I always have a slightly, not very well-informed view, but a view that there was less editing of novels in the 19th century, and that Thomas Hardy dropped off his manuscript and they printed it, and that was that. You seem to have found a lot of material that suggests that the authors wouldn't talk about it, but that their work more edited quite heavily.Sarah: I think their work was edited quite heavily. And particularly, so the complication is the ones who are submitting for something for serialisation in a magazine, I think they were just so relieved to get at each month and another month that turned up. 'Cause you know that they were writing up to the deadline. So that didn't get edited, but then sometimes you can see at Macmillan saying, "When we turn this into a book, we're gonna do something different with it." That definitely happens. He does it to Charles Kingsley, Water Babies when it comes out as a book, has been edited from what appeared in the magazine. And what the other author, Mrs. Oliphant published a serial in the magazine, and he definitely got her to change it before it went into the book. So he did have an influence on these people, you wouldn't get from either their biographies or autobiographies.Life LessonsHenry: No. So this sort of feeling that you've described as almost a chip on the shoulder feeling, I think this is potentially an advantage because when I look at some of the scientific research on late bloomers, one thing you notice is, take scientists, for example. A lot of scientists make their breakthrough when they are young, but when people have researched this and said why is that, it's because a lot of scientists stop working once they get tenure or once they win a prize or whatever. The scientists who do carry on working, keep making breakthroughs. [chuckle] So it's actually not because there's anything special about being young, it's because that's when people are really trying. If you don't ever settle into, the people you have met who are on a time table, "I'm going to be a director at this age," they get there and they settle in and, great. They can cruise through for a bit. But if you never settle into that or you retain the chip or you retain the sort of feeling of oh, God. Oh, God. Should I really be here? That's actually quite good because it keeps you energetic and it keeps you looking and it keeps you thinking "What am I going to do? What am I going to do?" Do you think there's a kind of... I don't know. Was that part of your success and Alexander's success that it... You never settled for what you had.Sarah: Yeah. I think that's right and there's something else I would see a parallel, which is I was not the greatest corporate financier in terms of my grasp of numbers and I'm hopeless at negotiation. But what I was doing, which most of my colleagues weren't, is I can market and sell. I'm interested in people and I used to go and win business. I used to bring it back and then other people would transact it, but that's certainly what I did in Yorkshire. I was out all the time meeting people because I was interested and I wanted to know what they did and what they did and how does that business work.So I was always out looking and I never wanted to just sit at my desk and shout at people and run the numbers again. I wasn't very good at any of that, but I think I can see that in Alexander too. I mean, Alexander recruits a partner in the mid-1860s to take the back end off him because he just wants to be out meeting new authors and that's what he's gonna be good at and George Lillie Craik is going run the numbers and have the fights with the printers and talk to America. So I can see that and I think that is... You're not that interested in the day job, you're interested in the next idea and the next interesting thing that's gonna grab your attention. And because you're interested, other people bond with you and, hey, you've made a sale. I used to talk to potential clients who would say, "It's really good that you've come out because you sound like you're genuinely interested in this business whereas the other three guys were just wondering what fee they could get out of me."That's why I would win business 'cause I was interested in them as people and I made friends and I asked interesting questions. And I wasn't just there kicking the tires and then hoping I can sign someone up, you know?Henry: Yeah, yeah. That's the novel reader in you.Sarah: Yes.Henry: There will be lots of women in their 30s in City jobs or office jobs or accountancy jobs or whatever who feel the way you felt. Either they've got imposter syndrome or they secretly would rather just be reading Trollope or whatever. What's your advice to them? Difficult to give advice in general terms, but, you know.Sarah: Yeah. My advice is you will... The thing you will do best is the thing that makes you happiest. So if you go on trying to push yourself into being something that you see other people being and it's not really making you happy, you won't be very successful at it anyway. So it is worth taking a risk and thinking is there something out there I could do, which I'm... Owning a flower shop or whatever, that would make me happier. If I had stayed on in corporate finance, if I had gone into private equity, I could have made millions and millions, but I don't think I'd have been any happier. In fact, I think I'd have been a lot less happy than I am sitting here on a tiny, little book advance doing exactly what I wanted to do. I don't regret any of that because I wouldn't have enjoyed it. I wouldn't have liked doing it.I mean, the other thing is... The other thing I would say to all women who are in my position is don't beat yourself up all the time that you're not being the perfect mother or the perfect executive because you're gonna live with that guilt forever and you're never gonna know what you could have done better. If you had given up, maybe you'd have been a terrible mother at home. If you'd found the children out or never had them, maybe your career wouldn't have taken off. You're never going to know. So don't beat yourself up with that, just do the best you can and cut corners wherever you can and get help. And don't be afraid to say, "I need help with this" and "I can't come tonight 'cause I've got to go to a parents evening." Just... The more women say that we need help with this and don't try and pretend that it's easy. It's not easy. It's never gonna be easy to do both. I found it very hard.Henry: So you are now navigating the publishing world. Doing book research, being a writer. What things did you learn from your earlier career in all its guises whether it's like small techniques and skills or sort of big life lessons or whatever, but what things did you learn from that earlier career that you're sort of using now?Sarah: I certainly learned... I mean, I certainly picked up a lot of small skills along the way. I am a very fast reader, I'm a summariser and a lot of my job in corporate finance was writing good, crisp, prose because you wrote prospectus because you wrote... So I think all of that has helped. I think I'm a better writer and a better researcher because I did it professionally for 20 years, but we called it corporate finance. I mean, there was a lot of cross over. In terms of the bigger stuff, what have I learned? I've learned to cope with worry and stress. I mean, if you wake up in the middle of the night and stuff's going around in your head, get up, have a cup of tea and write it all down. Don't lie in bed worrying that you're not going back to sleep. You just have to learn to cope with stress.And I think the other thing I've learned and I try and get into my children's head all the time is to be more assertive just not to run away and hide. If you think something's wrong or you're not being treated properly, don't lose your temper, don't sulk and don't spend your whole life taking it out on your friends and your family. You have to address it at work. Nothing is more boring than the person who really ought to have handed in their notice and just spends their whole life moaning to their wife, their husband, their best friends about what their bloody job is. Don't do it. If you don't like what you're doing, you will become very boring and to everybody else. Change your job. Change your job.Henry: Yes. Yes. Having recently been that person, I can endorse that sentiment. Sarah: So we've all done that. We've all spent time listening to someone who's thinking, why don't they just stop doing this job if it's making them so unhappy? And I know that's a... I know particularly the current climate that's easier said than done, but don't, life's very short really.Henry: Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's right. And what would the Alexander McMillan advice be? Could we have a little book of the wisdom of Alexander McMillan?Sarah: I think he's going... I mean, I am absolutely immersed in his life in the 1860s. And it is that the decade of the 1860s is the absolute pivotal decade for the business. It completely transforms. It looks utterly different in 1870 than it did in 1860. In 1871, his first wife dies and he rapidly remarries a much younger woman. And I think he starts going abroad on holidays. And I think his life changes. I think the 1870s Alexander is gonna... Had a younger woman saying to him, you're killing yourself. It's not worth it. You've got sons coming into the business, let George take the strain. We're going to France for a month Alexander and you are coming too. I mean, I think his life is gonna change in the 1870s.Ask me again when I know what he's writing to people in the '70s. Because in the '60s, he's saying, get your head down. Really got to work. Put start another book. Don't let the grass grow on your feet. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. He's at it all the time. I think he's gonna have a very different attitude in 10 years' time.Henry: A lot of writers seem to have a decade or a 15 year period where they kind of really do most of their great work. If that seems to be like that for him, but in a business sense, then you're saying the '60s that was his time and then it cooled off.Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And well after... But with a publishing house in particular, I think once you built up a critical mass, it's not so difficult to run because good authors are going come to you and you can be selective and you can take a Thomas Hardy manuscript and you can take a Kipling manuscript and a Henrig. They're going to come to you. Whereas in the 1860s, he's really scrabbling around. What's going to be good? And he creates things like the Golden Treasury Series or the Clarendon Press textbooks with Oxford University. He's creating things because he hasn't got Thomas Hardy or Henry James. He's got Charles Kingsley, who's becoming increasingly racist and unpleasant. By the 1870s, the business is... There's a magazine that comes out every month. It has regular subscriptions.And now Nature is going to come out every month and be written for by her Huxley. And he's got, he can choose who he publishes. So I think by the 1870s, the business runs much better even when he is on holiday. Whereas in the 1860s, he just needs to be there every day and he needs to read every manuscript and he needs to look at every proof and he's changing the colour of the bindings. He's in all over it and I think it would've killed him and it killed his wife possibly. And I think in the 1870s, it's easier for him to step back. And then he starts having a son and a nephew in the business. And then he has three nephews in the business, I mean, it just moves on. And he's lucky that the next generation of the one, two, three, five boys, three of them stay in the business and are still in the business in their 70s and 80s. And they all die within a couple of months of each other in 1936, bang, bang, bang. But they were all there, three brothers. So he's lucky in that there is at least two generations of McMillan that know how to run a publishing company. Not everyone gets that. Do they? Some people can't even get to some...Talent SpottingHenry: What did you learn about talent spotting when you were at Arthur Andersen?Sarah: That one of the best things you can have in a business career is instinct about people, that I could always tell within five minutes of an interview starting whether I ought to hire this person or not. It's a bit like house hunting, it all looks lovely on paper and then sometimes you get to the gate and you think I'm not even going to look at this house. [laughter] I can't imagine living in this house, why have I come? And I think I had really good instinct for people spotting and I was good at bringing people on particularly women. I mean, there were a couple of women around who say nice things to me about I learned a lot from you, Sarah.Henry: What were the signals? The good and the bad signals? What set your instincts off?Sarah: Genuine intelligence, not just... A spark in the eye literally and a bit of a sense of humour. So not just they've learned it all by wrote. I wasn't ever interested in the people who told me they'd been reading the Financial Times since they were 12. I was interested in someone who'd tell me something interesting they'd seen it on the back of a lorry coming into the interview. That was a better sign for me of genuine interest. And I always used to say when I was teaching other people to interview and hire as well, if you don't think...If this new person is going start on Monday morning, am I going to really look forward to seeing them? Or am I thinking that, I hope this is gonna be alright? Then you've already made your decision, you want that person to be someone you wanna work with on a Monday morning when it's pouring with rain and you've got to hangover you. So pick people who you are gonna get on with and who are as bright as you are or brighter if you can find them.Henry: Let's say I was going to plant you into the offices of some big consultancy, PwC or EY or someone, and your job is to talent spot some potential late bloomers. They don't have to want to write a book or be victorious, they just have to be some other Sarahs, who have this in them, but they're not talking about it, and we don't know what it is, how are you going to go about looking for these people, and when will your instinct sort of prick up and say, "Yeah, I'm gonna get to know her, she seems like there's something in the background there."Sarah: I think it's the... You're gonna see that person thinking outside the box. So in a room of people where everyone said something around the table, they've said the most interesting thing that wasn't what anyone else said. And it might have been a small point that they've made, but it was just different their brains weren't working, they weren't doing groups speak. Because they may not have been listening to the group speak and they might though it was very dull, but this was the thing that had been interesting them about this problem. And I know that's the thing. I also think I would be looking for the person who had done something interesting at the weekend, or was going to theatre that night or just the show that the brain was not completely sucked into the job, that in fact, they were probably more looking like hoping they were gonna get to the national theatre that night, than worrying about anything else that was going on. It's that feeling that you have a life outside work. And for lots of people, there is no life outside work.And I feel so sorry for them when they give up because, what are they gonna do with their lives? Whereas I always knew that there were 50 things. If I'd have to stop working tomorrow, I wouldn't have been bored for a second, there are 50 things I wanted to do, and I always feel sorry for people to say, "Oh, I don't know what I'd do if I didn't have this job." Really? You know.But I think, how do you spot them when that's not coming out? I think you are gonna spot them because they are gonna say something that's a different take from everyone else.Henry: Yeah, no, that's interesting, if you're not going to sort of have the chance to see them pull a book of poetry out of the briefcase or whatever, you can... You're saying there are signals in the meeting. Comes back to divergence almost, they're not...Sarah: It does.Henry: How many people do you think you met like that in your career? I tell you why I'm asking, I feel like we have no idea how many late bloomers there could be out there. But my suspicion is there a lot of people who could be in the right circumstances, given the right conditions or whatever, but we just don't know.Sarah: No, I don't know. I don't think many. I can't think of people. There were people who did surprisingly well after I'd worked with them, went off and did other business things and have done very well, and I think... Well, I wonder what they might do next.Henry: Were they the ones saying the out of the box stuff in the meeting or are there other indicators of those?Sarah: There's a girl in particular, I'm thinking about, who worked for me and Leeds who could have gone down a very boring banking corporate route. Actually, she's now running a really interesting small business, and she always... She used to get teased and laughed at because she would sometimes say such off the wall things, used to make a look a bit stupid sometimes, but I always used to be interested in what she'd said, 'cause there was something going on there. So I would think about her. I'm trying to think. So later life, when I've been around NHS boards, there are people there who I think could easily spring off and do something completely different, 'cause working for the NHS is so completely absorbing of your life, your energy and your compassion, but some of them are very interesting people, they wouldn't be doing that job otherwise.Best Victorian Novel?Henry: Finally give us a recommendation for one really good Victorian novel that we might not have read.Sarah: Okay, I'm going to say a part from I've already told you that I love The Way We Live Now, and I love Middlemarch, which I think are the two absolute classic novels. But the one that I read last year, which I'd never heard of and loved, it's by Mrs. Oliphant, and it's called Hester, and it was written, I think in the 1880s, and it's set in a small town, but it's about a woman who saves the Family Bank from going bankrupt. Her father has over extended the bank and run off, and a bit like, It's a Wonderful Life, there's going to be a run on the bank, but Hester goes into the office, it's a small town, and the fact that she's there, she saves the bank and effectively runs it, and then the book starts as the next generation are coming through what's gonna happen. And will she have to do it again? It's a really good book.Henry: Yeah, that sounds a great.Sarah: Hester by Mrs. Oliphant.Henry: I'm going to read that. Well, Sarah, thank you very much.Sarah: Thank you, Henry. It's been very enjoyable.Thanks for reading. If you're enjoying The Common Reader, let your interesting friends know what you think. Or leave a comment at the bottom.If you don't subscribe to The Common Reader, but you enjoy reading whatever's interesting, whenever it was written, sign up now. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.commonreader.co.uk

Today's conversation with Adam Kawalec on Income follows Impact fits under the P of Pricing of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Adam is a former top-level manager turned life & business coach, co-founder of a unique and internationally recognized personal trainer school, who has built a thriving business based on referrals only. With over 16 yrs of experience in change management, leadership and mental training Adam helps heart-centered coaches and consultants get paid doing what they love without having to sacrifice their life; work; or bank balance. Adam is also a founding member of the Humane Marketing Circle and I got to reference his work in the Selling Like We Are Human Book! Adam's favorite quote: "If you could only love enough, you would be the most powerful person in the world - Emmet Fox In this episode, you'll learn why income follows impact and... How can we move the pay line, give before we get? How do we avoid over-giving and burnout? Is money the only form of income? How else can we define success? What do we do with our ambition, our ego? Adam's Resources   Adam's Website For being a listener get access to the top 3 expert interviews from the Authentic Business & Marketing Summit hosted by Adam Connect with Adam on: Instagram Facebook YouTube LinkedIn   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] [00:07:00] Hi, Adam, how are you today?  Adam: I am great. Thank you so much for, for having me here today.  Sarah: Yeah, I w we've been planning this for, we can say over a year, because it only has been over the span of a year, so I'm so excited to have you here with us today and talk about yeah. And intriguing topic. So you so graciously, let me share. Your concept of, you know, moving the pay line or you'll have to explain whether they are different concepts. This idea of Income follows impact or moving the pay line, whether they're the same or different [00:08:00] ones. But yeah, we do, we did share them, include them in the selling like we're human book. And so I'm just excited to expand on this concept a little bit. So maybe you start off by yeah. Telling our listeners. Maybe how you came up with this and, and then explaining the different ones, or if they're all the same, just going into details there.  Adam: Absolutely. Well, thank you. Well, so we, we, you and I, we decided to talk a little bit more about the income follows impact, which is just a really clever way I think, to kind of get people's attention. And we'll expand on that shortly and I, you know, for anyone who picked that up there is there is an exercise. There is a mind set thing that I often do, which I call move the pay line, which is. Which you graciously shared in your book. And I'd love to expand on that as well. And and th they, it goes hand in hand. It demonstrates how you actually deliver on the [00:09:00] promise of income follows impact. So if I, if I jump into it and start to kind of define. Impact means is, is really, if you listen to it, what we're saying is if you make an impact, if you make a big enough difference in someone's life and or business, there is a way for you to make a good living or you know, find some form of revenue at the end of that. And this really comes from the idea of, I think I picked this up from Seth Godin where this, like, people are only willing to pay for something they see as. Like, so they, they, they, they, you know, they need to see value. And throughout my career, working with, with clients and, you know, having conversations and sales conversations and enrollment calls and all of that, what I notice really makes the difference is to give people an experience versus explaining the concepts. So, for example, if, if I'm doing business coaching or if I'm doing something around life, coaching [00:10:00] me avoiding just to explain what it could do for them, me instead showing them what that could do for them always moves them closer to that decision of. Let's let's do this. Let's continue. And so through the work I did with my coach anchors Jane, at that point, we came up with that idea, that income follows impact. The more impactful you can be as a coach, the less you will struggle as a coach. Because a lot of times we spend, we spend time on creating content. We spend time in being in conversations, and we're talking about coaching. We're talking about. The outcome what's possible. And this applies to anyone. If you're a trainer healer consultant, we're talking about, about the things that we can create, Moses actually giving them some form of experience of that. So that's what I applied to my [00:11:00] business. It's what I try to help my clients see as well that wherever you can Well, let's not just say let's wherever you can, but, but rather say where you can try to give the experience before the concept trying to give content before the concept, like give them context because then they will actually know. So that's kind of the income follows impact. And to be honest, Anytime. I feel a bit anxious about my bank accounts or the growth of my business. I can, I can go back and I can self-reflect and I can say, well, how much of a difference are you making? How much of an impact are you making? Right. And to be honest, it actually always puts me in a more creative mode when I go like, Let's focus on impact here. Let's focus on making a difference versus right. Let's make more money. I, I just happen to believe, you know, be part of that group of people who are not necessarily driven by money. But impact, I mean, you, you talk about impact pioneers, [00:12:00] right? That's, that's definitely the, the, the tribe I subscribed to. And, and so, yeah, I think that's quick and easy explanation of income follows. Yeah,  Sarah: I love that. And what you just said, there's such a different energy to it. When you say, you know, when you're kind of in this scarcity thinking, feeling mode and you're like, well, Should I hustle more to, you know, get more clients and then that feels like more scarcity, or should I look at how can I make more impact? And that just kind of has this opening energy. And it feels like, wow, that is very, very different. So I love that. I love that. Obviously that. Another kind of marketing concept that comes to mind is, is this idea of the know like, and trust factor, right? So I think that plays into it because if we are just talking about [00:13:00] things, Well, how will people know, like, and trust us. And so by really experiencing you and what you can deliver that helps with that know like, and trust factor. Maybe. Maybe we could give some examples because in the typical marketing you know, path or funnel where we usually think of the typical e-book or the free audio download or things like that. So yes, that could be an option, I guess, to, you know, work with your impact or, or trust factor, but you are talking about experiences and, and. I think that an ebook would count as an experience of podcast may count as an experience, baby. But yeah. Tell me more of what you mean by experiences.  Adam: Mm, good. Yes. So I think you're right. [00:14:00] There are degrees to facilitating an experience and really what I mean when I'm saying experience. We want to go for trying to give an experience of what it looks like to work together. So now obviously an ebook can sort of do that. And I would even say if it's an ebook, you do want to make sure, I think my personal recommendation is make sure that it's about. What I mean by that is like, don't try to prop yourself up too much, like make, make your clients, your customers, the hero of that story, because it gives the, it gives the experience of working with you where it's like, you're going to put them in the center and you're going to focus on them so it can work because they can feel like, wow, he's, he's, he's really committed to my growth, our growth. Wow. She really sees the individual. That alone can shift things right away. And then obviously we can move up the ladder and we can go to podcasts, [00:15:00] which is probably even better because you get to listen to the you know, the, the tone of the boys the pacing, the expressions the warmth or the, you know, the depth to whatever we were able to convey. So that's another way Actually I just  Sarah: get in there and ask something because I was just listening to a podcast today and I made this reflection where I think the last. The less kind of, you know, bells and whistles a podcast has to me. So, you know, how we all kind of got used to the super intro with Barbara, like you hired this voice and it sounds like really, whoa, look at this show and here is Sarah athletic coach. So the less kind of professional, almost, maybe the word is it is. The more, I feel connected to the host. And I was wondering [00:16:00] about that because I, I kind of given myself permission over the years to do these muse episodes where it's just me talking and, you know, they're way easier for me to create. I just hit record and do some audio editing. You know, not cutting out any words, but just kind of improving the audio and, and then off, off I go. But it was a big struggle to think. What are people going to think? This is not as professional as all the other ones, but then today I noticed, you know, what I love does podcast host, but yet I feel so detached because I don't feel like I'm having a real experience with them. I just feel like. Talking to a huge audience. What do you think  Adam: about that? Well, I think you're really onto something here. And especially going back to what you represent with the humane marketing and humane selling, I think authenticity is, is what comes up for me, right. That [00:17:00] we want to have real authentic connections to the people we surround ourselves with. And it is part of what I actually think is. What I talk about when I talk about impact, because one of the, I think misunderstandings or myths possibly in our industry of, of being a helper is that we need to be gurus. We need to be put on pedestals and we need to be. Celebrities and you know, for anyone who can't see this, I'm smiling, as I'm saying it, there's a little bit of a, like, you know, a bit humor in this, of course there's nothing wrong with having a following or something like that. It's just I believe that the power in, and I'm going to refer to coaching we're helping the power of the helping happens through the relationship. Because I can give you all the best tools in the world. And if our relationship is off, most likely you're not going to receive them. Like you're not going to receive them the way I intended for them to be received. Because we're, we're having an [00:18:00] issue with how we're listening to each other, how we're connected. And if we start our relationship where you look at me and put me on a pedestal, meaning that you're looking at. At me a chance to solve we're already in an unbalanced relationship. If you're looking up at me, you might be afraid of making mistakes. You might be afraid of confessing that you didn't do your homework that you failed. And all of a sudden we could go as deep as we need to for your sake, because you're not being honest. So my faith. My celebrity status is actually damaging the relationship and therefore the potential of my clients right now. You also don't want to have them look down upon you, like, which is really weird if they did. But what I mean by that is we don't want to be, and this might be a touchy subject, but I'm going to go ahead and say, we don't want to overshare. We don't want to be over vulnerable [00:19:00] vulnerabilities are powerful. And I just think we, we want to be mindful around that. And what I mean then is we, we want to avoid role reversals where our clients, all of a sudden feel like they need to comfort. That creates a very weird dynamic. And yet I see this happen. I see this happening group programs. I see this happen in conversations where we overshare something that we are simply not in a, in a space to share yet. It's to rule now where we do want to be is really human to human. I leveled. If that's how you say it, right? Because at that point it's a more mutual, respectful human connection. And I think anything that we can to provide that kind of expensive. In an ebook, a podcast, a video, even in our emails, right? The more we do that, the, I think that's strong with the relationship [00:20:00] becomes and the better for, for the client in terms of the potential. So what that looks like is probably very individual based on who you are and what your brand is about. And as you said, perhaps it is about less bells and whistles and more connection. Sarah: Okay, thanks for exploring that side. Tangent. It's just, yeah, it kind of was brought up today. So I was like, oh, let me ask him that. So let's go back to the, the idea of yeah, we were talking about podcasts as being one of the things that we can offer. What would be some other experiences?  Adam: Well, another thing you brought up as an example in your book selling like we're human. You, you went on to explain a little bit about when I hosted my summits and the beginning of last year, where I, as far as I could, as much as I could, I was sending personal video messages to everyone who signed up [00:21:00] and it was a free event to sign up for. There were quite a few messages to go, go out. And I sent a video message where I would S you know, wave and say mentioned the name and say, I'm glad to have you here. I hope you find this interesting. And I used to add something personal based on that day. And, and, you know, the mood I was in I add some software to help me with arts. So that made it easier. Cause it might be a bit tricky to figure that out otherwise. And that was just something that I wanted to commit to as a way to already give people way before they even joined the, the the summit or way before they even start to reaching out to me, they are hearing my voice. They're seeing my body language. They're seeing my, my, my facial expressions. They're getting an experience. So that's yet another way. So again, give the experience a way before people even start working.  Sarah: Yeah. And they, they really feel, and I think they felt [00:22:00] those people who signed up for your summit, they felt heard and seen as, you know, participants of the summit. It's not just a, you know, here's a mass email that we all know by now. Okay. Yeah. He's not really talking to me personally. So having that personal touch it's of course. Yeah. It's, it's one of the ways to, to create impact. I, I couldn't agree with you.  Adam: I guess would it be helpful for me to expand on the move, the pay line concept? So you kind of give people an idea of what can they do for, for themselves. So the idea that I was fortunate enough to Shane in your book move the pay line is is this idea that. Well, w we had that analogy in the book. So let me start with that. So you picture yourself on a beach where you got your bare feet in, in, in the sand, and you have a stick in your hand and you, you draw a line from top to bottom towards your feet. So there's like two columns there, two [00:23:00] sides beyond that, that line in the sand and to the right of that. And the right column. You start writing things that you do with your clients. Once they sign up with you on state pay you and they start working with you in, in some form of container, you start adding, like I'll send out a, a workbooks. I'm sending out my, my ebook that I wrote two years ago. I give them. Access to my oh, summits that I used to run. We create strong agreements. I give them access to me via WhatsApp and of course we have conversations and all of that, just just a few examples right now, if we've listed an exhausted our resources or ideas to what we do, once someone becomes our class. We can then move on to the left side of that line, to the left column. And on this side, we're asking ourselves, what could I borrow from the right side onto [00:24:00] the left side, left side being, how can I give people an experience before they pay me? So now the line symbolizes a before and after payments. So all of a sudden. I can look at all the things I provide as a part of the experience of being a pain client. Other versions of that I can share already way before they become my clients. Maybe I could give access to parts of my summit. Maybe I can get out my e-book. Maybe there are ways for me to send messages that are really directed to that individual justice. I would, once they become my clients. And so all of a sudden we're moving the pay line in, in terms of. It was kind of moving it up into what we already offer as as for our pay paying client. Again, this way, it just helps. We don't have to come up with something new. We can just revise and review what we have and go, how can I put this out? How can I give [00:25:00] people access to this? How can I provide an experience before they have to pay?  Sarah: Yeah. As you know, in the selling like we're human book, I'm calling the signposts. That that's what a signpost is to me is this idea of, you know, gently leading your ideal client along the path to maybe eventually end up in your serene garden, where you do have a sales conversation, but in the meantime, you give them all these benches where they can. And they can sit down and, and yeah. Kind of you know, listen to your podcast or to your summit and whatever, not you're sharing with them. And what I like also, what you said is. That it doesn't have to be a, you know, something new, a new, a whole course that you're creating or, you know, how we get into, like, there's a lot of talk about funnels and how we come up. People come up with these really complicated funnels and [00:26:00] it doesn't have to be complicated. It can really just be, well, what am I already doing? And pull some things to the other side. So I love this concept of just saying. Well, what. Do I do already that, you know, doesn't cost me anything, obviously we're not wanting you to, you know, necessarily spend, you know, free coaching or, or any of that. That's up to you if you decide to do that. But, but that's not the idea here. It's like, what do I have already that I can give for free and help with that, you know, guidance towards the serene garden. Yeah. I love that.  Adam: If I can expand just quickly on this. This is actually something that was really is really current for me. And I've, I've been fortunate enough now to be in really strong conversations around this. I have noticed, and it's something that I've taken for granted for quite some time. And I've noticed that [00:27:00] asking questions. Is is definitely the way. I mean, especially in my case, I'm a coach. So asking questions is kind of what I do. So. When I slow things down and now we're talking about people who are reaching out or coming in by email or WhatsApp, there's an introduction being made and I'm connected with someone. Normally the typical thing that perhaps I would do or anyone else would do is just because that person came in. We know there's an interest. We say, fantastic. Here's my Calendly link or here's my Yeah. Any, any calendar link that we use to schedule something or something exactly. Sign up. Hey, and let's get on a call, right? That's a typical thing. Cause we're really quick on it. If we, first of all, I think pre-qualifying can be useful. And especially because this is the side I'm seeing right now, the really cool thing is because I've been really busy. So I've been having to pre-qualify people I've been having to extend some of them [00:28:00] time I spend with people. And so I've been asking more questions and the really cool thing happened just a couple of weeks ago, where someone came into my sphere and. I started asking questions and I kept asking questions and I had her come up with, well, it seem deeper and deeper. And as like, even the first message I sent her, she was like, oh my God, those are great questions. And this is also a coach. So I found that really humbling that she felt like, oh, those were really good questions. And we kept going the day after. I receive randomly from my website, someone going through my application form to sign up for a free conversation with me. They went through, they scheduled a conversation with me and usually I have an idea of who's coming in and who's not. So this was a random person. I couldn't recognize the name. And we were starting having a conversation because of the email coming in. And she, she told [00:29:00] me, well, I came in because of. You're in conversation with another woman and she recommended me to reach out to you and that's the woman I'm texting with. So she's already having an experience of the possibility that's on offer here so much so that she's willing to even say to someone she knows, you know what? You produce, probably have a look at his website. She'd probably look into this guy and that that woman then goes through and kind of comes out the other side of. In my calendar right now, I'm sharing that just to say, kind of highlight the power of again, giving the experience. So even before I'm accepting anyone before we get on a call before those money exchanged, she's experiencing the possibility of work together through the questions through me, having her see. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah, that is powerful. And instead of, you know, maybe increasing the filters and saying, no, let me [00:30:00] block you out. We can just engage in the questions. And from there still then decide, you know, is this a good fit or not yet?  Adam: And you mentioned this thing that it doesn't have to cost a lot. And I just want to say that, that part of what I tend to do is I send other people's resources. I've sent your book to people. I've made sure that they listen to episodes of your podcast. I have a list. I got a long list. I call the ultimate resource list. Right. And I just keep adding things there. If I watch a really good YouTube video, I'll add it to that. Now we can send other people's results. And we can say, Hey, if you enjoy that, we should get on a call and explore that. Right? So already asking questions, sending them useful resources, having them do some homework, even before they start working with us, having them experience transformations way before they stopped paying us is a beautiful way to introduce the idea of the experience rather than the concept.[00:31:00]  And I'm not going to say any more because clearly I can talk about this forever, but it's, I hope we're giving some ideas to the, the audience, the listeners on how they can start doing pieces of this themselves.  Sarah: Yeah, yeah, no, I liked that a lot. This, this idea of experience versus I guess transaction, I, the word that comes up, so yeah. Yeah. I want to steer you in another direction. I think a lot of the listeners they are. And you notice you're in the circle, we're you know, heart-centered entrepreneurs where impact pioneers. So we are, you don't need to tell us, you need to give before you get usually that's, you know, we're good at that. And so I think that is a great advantage. And it can also get to the point where it becomes a disadvantage or it becomes a challenge. I know I share about the, my over-giving [00:32:00] burnout in the marketing, like where human book. And I know that you had kind of have a, an over giving or, or just kind of a burnout moment as well in. Previous career. So maybe tell us about the, that burnout story and what it was linked to you. And then. Yeah, how do we, how do we deal with that? How do we still give, and yet also make sure that we are, you know, safe and healthy and happy.  Adam: Yeah. Th this is an important topic, especially for us. You said heart centered entrepreneurs. So my own personal experience and I I've, I've had it several times. Like it's, it's, you know, I think it's, to me, it was just, it's a tendency, it's a strength. And it's also one of my. Greatest. Potentials. So in, in my corporate career I had a burnout because I've just continuously saying if only I have X, then things will be better. And I kept saying that it [00:33:00] was like the carrot on a stick just dangling in front of me. And I was continuously saying like, I'll just get to that point. Then everything will be fine. I got to that point, but something else was now not, not good. And I continued and I continued and finally, I just couldn't get out of bed. I had clearly. Went way beyond my boundaries. So that was part of what I needed to understand. And I did come up with an idea after that w which has been really helpful in, in, in my coaching and my personal life as well. And it is this to kind of fill your own cup first. And, and I, I call this energy management. So. I have this idea that, and we all know this, like recharging our batteries and filling our own cup is often a really powerful way to do, especially for helpers because we're, we're far more effective when our cups are full or our batteries are full. The challenge though, is that we tend to feel that. And then we start giving again and, you know, because we're giving the [00:34:00] levels decrease and now we're down to 30, 30%. And all of a sudden we only have a maximum capacity of 30 to give. Whereas if I would have been back on hundreds, I could have given much, much more. So my personal insights, my, my solution to that became to fill my cup up and keep. Because it's the overflow that I then share freely. And so for me, it was about figuring out what fills my cup. And once I figured that out, make sure that it never gets turned off. So I start my day. I make sure that parts of my agenda is to fill my cup and keep it full because then if I move into a space of service, there's no depletion because it's an ever flowing. Sarah: Yeah, I love that picture. It's just like the minute it's empty, it's filling again. And then you share whatever is, you know, [00:35:00] dripping over and it has a lot to do with, you know, abundance. Like that's what abundance is, is that that's when you. Can really share from this energy of abundance, because the minute you feel like, oh, there's less. And you know, I'm not feeling great and there's not enough for me. Well, guess what? You're not in abundance anymore. You're now in scarcity. And so that's also where this stressed and comes from. The other term. You mentioned boundaries. So I think that's an important part of it, right? Like we're not, we're not inviting you to just give without limits. Yes. You know, first of all yeah. Have your cup always full, but even then there's boundaries. Like if someone asks you, do you work for free? Well, no, of course not. You know, there, there are boundaries that you need to put in place. Do you work on the [00:36:00] weekend? No. If, if, if you don't want to work on the weekends, then that's a big, no. So there is a yeah, a big importance on, on boundaries and, and, and working on those and the I'll let you in, in a second, the other term I wanted to throw at you was ambition. So talk to us about boundaries and and then also ambition.  Adam: Perfect. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to make that connection. So it's W with the, with the boundaries. The ID I like to talk about around that is really when it comes to our us being heart-centered entrepreneurs helpers, we want to understand that there is a distinction here. There is being passionate about what you do, and also being a pro. And in, in early days when I started things, I was just passionate. I was, I was on a mission. I had a purpose and I was giving again. I told you I've [00:37:00] burned out several times, not just at my corporate career, but also doing what I'm doing today. So I've, I've, I've had to learn that and relearn that. And part of that is when things shifted for me, I was working with a coach who helped me see. There is a distinction by turning into a pro. One can, one can argue. It's, it's a question about the social self and the professional self. The social self wants to be liked and is afraid of saying no, we're putting boundaries in the professional self is the side that says, well, actually, I realize when I'm depleted, I'm doing a far less less impactful work than I otherwise could. So because of that, I limit the number of calls, the number of hours I work per week, so that I can guarantee to people to always show up on our high frequency, for example. Right. So that, so that's the distinction I'm trying to allow people to see is really. [00:38:00] Turn pro like stop treating this as a business, not as a hobby, not as just a passion project. I mean, if, if that's what you want, of course, to turn this into a business. And if we do, we are professionals be proud of that. And, and honor that, and it does tie into this idea of ambition and defining your success. But. If we don't define what success looks like to us, it is easy to overdo it. It is easy to think. Well, five clients are pro is probably better than, than. So let's go for fine. Well, that's the whole thing, right? Is it really, to you for you, maybe for clients is perfect for you because it allows you to have that time, that space to recharge and always make sure that you're coming from a place of full, maybe gives you time to grow, learn and stay on top of things and so on and so on. So you want to take charge of that.[00:39:00]  Ambition is a tricky thing. Like we could probably have a whole conversation about this, because that was my key, key learning. When I shifted away from, from where I was there is like in human beings, we have this amazing ability to be ambitious. It is, it is an amazing ability because you don't see this everywhere else. Like. If you look at animals, for example, they're not very ambitious. They're very concerned about the present moments, surviving humans, though. We put away money today so that we possibly can use that when we retire. That's very ambitious. That's very how do you say that for forward thinking? Yeah. And at the same time, if all you have is ambition, you will struggle with actually living in the present moment. And to be honest, life really happens only in the present moment. So we're missing out on a big piece of, of life. So [00:40:00] the opposite of ambition is enthusiasm, according to me. So we, it's one thing to use. And we also want to balance that with enthusiasm, meaning the excite excitement we feel in the present moment. Right? And so again, what can help us not to go to fall? Which is a typical thing. When we measure money, we measure followers. We measure tangible metrics is that 10 is good. 11 is good. 15 is even better. And then we just like, kind of start rolling because the ambition takes over. That's where we can start going. What's my upper lip. What's the limit that I would be happy to reach without necessarily sacrificing or crossing my boundaries, sacrificing my boundaries so that I can make sure to come from a place of abundance. First does this tidy all together, Sarah? [00:41:00] Yeah.  Sarah: No, it's so good. I'm so glad you, you mentioned this upper limit. I think it's. We are so. Brainwashed to always think about growth and more growth and more growth that, you know, the conversation of what if there was an upper limit. And what if, and obviously we're talking about money here as well. Right? What if I reached that upper limit and then I can really just. Do the things that fill my cup and then if it would still brings me joy then yeah. Maybe, maybe I can do some more because obviously we've also all chosen work that we love doing, but that's also where the danger is. I think, in, in our work, I mean, yes, it's great that we get to work and love it. And at the same time you can fall so much in love with your work. That in the end, you're still working all the time. Me now. And then [00:42:00] yeah, I think it's, it can be addictive. So, so I think it's a, it's worth having a conversation. You know, especially if you have a partner and loved ones and you're like, well, actually, yeah, I do love my work, but you know, how do they fit into the equation as well? So, So yeah, so good to have this and yeah. Enthusiasm. Isn't, that is a great word and curiosity as well. You know, where, where it's like, well, yeah, I have this ambition, but I have all this curiosity for other things that I want to do that maybe don't have to do with work. And, you know, Maybe if I do have this upper limit, then I have more time for following my curiosity. So honesty is one of my core values. So it's just like, yeah, I do want to do all these other things as well. So so good. Yeah. Is there anything that we haven't talked about [00:43:00] yet that you wanted to bring up with this idea of moving the pale paler?  Adam: Well, I was thinking about one other thing. Once we, you know, as I was preparing in my mind about this and it was this not to make this a big things, a very small distinction that can sometimes help to understand what it means to focus on the impact. And it is, it is this idea of don't don't look for clients, look for ways to be helpful. So. Whenever someone feels stuck. Like I can't find clients, where do I find clients? Well, let's not focus on clients. Let's focus on helping people being helpful. And, and again, obviously going back to what we just shared about boundaries and turning pro and defining success so that it actually makes sure to support your lifestyle goals when we start looking for ways to be helpful The spin off effects. The side effect of that is often [00:44:00] a poster becoming a client. It just, it sort of happens by itself. And to me, I found that to be quite. Helpful when, when the anxiety of, oh, I need clients. When that comes up, I just go like, hang on. Let's be helpful. Where can I be helpful? Because it's easy to find that then finding clients, I don't walk around seeing dollar signs above people's heads. Right. It's just not what I do.  Sarah: Yeah, that brings up. This is when I used to call organized LinkedIn local events here in, in Lozan. We maybe organize that with a friend and people came to these networking events, like you said, looking for clients. And I always told them don't your clients are not here. These are people, humans that may just know other humans who need you know, what you have to offer, but it's never a good idea to go to a [00:45:00] networking event and think those are all my potential clients. Like you give off the wrong energy, if you go into a room like that. So yeah, just thinking, oh, these are humans who may know other humans who have. Then yeah, potentially gonna have want to work with me, but, but also don't think, oh, I'm going to tell them, you know, tell all your friends about me. No, that's not planning  Adam: their.  Sarah: Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Adam. I want you to share two things. First of all where people can find you, how they can find out how to work with you in a second. I think you have something where you walk your talk and people can really experience What it would be like to be in your circles. So tell us about, yeah,  Adam: exactly. Well, the easiest way, I guess, is you can just visit my website, which is Adam koala. K a w a L E c.com. And they, you can get in [00:46:00] touch with me. You can read more about the things that I do together with my clients. And you can send me an email from there as well. I am on social media. But I'm not a huge, huge fan or like a very, very present person there. So it can take some time before I see something, if you really want to make sure to get in touch with me send me an email and that's the that's the best way. And yes. So I, I really, I mean, I enjoy. Our conversations. And we started getting to know each other a year ago. And I was so happy when you decided to you were accepting my invitation to be part of my summit that I did last year, calling the authentic business building and marketing summit and authenticity to me like that. I just needed you to be part of that. So, and I'm so glad I did. And you said, yes. So to honor that kind of, I, I, I wanted to offer all the listeners a way to access the, the interview I did with you. And two additional interviews that are really on the topic of authenticity and connection [00:47:00] and providing experience for people. So and they can go again to my, my home website and it's Adam koala.com forward slash humane marketing. Human marketing protocols and that's where they can basically sign up for, for taxes, those three videos. And I'm sure that you'll link that somewhere around this episode as  Sarah: well. And the show notes and in the description of your, of your app, where you're listening to this podcast. So, yeah. Wonderful and generous offer. Thank you. And that summit was just so great. So thank you so much. And the final question, Adam, what are you grateful for today or this week?  Adam: I am going to say that I'm back running that I'm really grateful for, for being back running it's I took a bit of a, a pause during holidays and all of that, and today was my first day back running. And I'm really grateful for that. Like, it's, it's one of my, that's one of the things that [00:48:00] really feels like. And I can tell because the last few weeks slowly, slowly been some early drippings happening, happening for my, my refilling my cup. So I wouldn't say that. Yeah. Running nature moving the body. Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much for being on the show, Adam. Really  Adam: appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

The Skeptical Witch Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWYaJlQZ7zGSfJv-INEgo1A www.obscureclouds.com   S3E6 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder: Science-based Paganism. I'm your host Mark. Yucca: and I'm Yucca. Mark: And today we have a really exciting episode. We are interviewing Sarah, the skeptical witch who has the skeptical, which channel on YouTube. And it's just a super interesting, fascinating person for us to introduce to our listeners. So welcome, Sarah. Sarah: It's really great to be here. Thank you guys for having me on.  Yucca: And thank you for joining us. So we were trying to narrow down all of the things we could talk about before we started too, before we pressed record, because it sounds like we could spend about five hours just going over everything, but why don't we start, Sarah? Will you, will you introduce yourself? Let us know a little bit about you, about your channel and about who you are and what you're doing. Sarah: Yeah, sure. So I'm yeah, Sarah, the skeptical, which on YouTube I also have a blog of scare clouds and that was kind of like my, my beginning of like kind of putting my, my practices with like witchcraft and paganism online. It started with that blog and both that, and my channel kind of came out of a synthesis of my own spiritual practice and kind of what my academic interests are. So, I first came to like witchcraft and paganism through academia actually through like a school project that I was doing. and kind of fell into it that way and started to craft my own practice. Out of that, out of what I was learning out of the kind of communities that I was engaging with. And I was a student in anthropology for my undergrad and my masters. And within that, I started to engage with like various peg in witchcraft community is, and a lot of, a lot of, kind of like what I was experiencing. There was a very, I guess, Wu or like, You know, SU superstitious or like magical these kinds of things that we, that we might say about it. And didn't really necessarily find that there had to be that kind of connection there. So I kind of began to craft my own kind of like skeptical witchcraft practice and a more like naturalistic kind of paganism or like non-theistic paganism as well. And that just kind of grew into to what I put online now. And I just kind of documented my journey through that and try to combine my, what I'm learning with my, my own practice and Yeah.  Yucca: And was there something that really drew you to the pagan stuff when you were doing your master's and undergrad? Sarah: Yeah, I think well, first of all, the kind of the nature aspect of it was what really, really drew me in. I didn't start studying paganism intentionally. I kind of went into studying alternative, like spirituality with a focus on like new age practices. And from there kind of discussed. Paganism and Neo paganism and these things. And I found that to be really, really fascinating and, and just something about it really clicked with me. So in a kind of an anthropological sense in doing ethnography you'll, you'll often, you know, join in with various community rituals and things. So it was joining in all these rituals. I was talking to all these people. I was learning all about the religion and that, yeah. It just, I felt like the nature part, especially really just clicked with me as well as the kind of like self-improvement aspect of it and the kind of like inner exploration and transformation and things like this. So that was what really drew me in and kind of, got me hooked, I guess.  Mark: you know, it's interesting as you say this, because it seems as though naturalistic paganism is something that just gets invented over and over and over. You know, so many of us have kind of created our own and then discovered that there were other people out there who are also doing it. So it's it's kind of wonderful that way. It apparently there is, there's something out there to be found in the wedding of a naturalistic worldview and a scientifically skeptical mindset with a nature earth worshiping or revering kind of practice. So tell us a little bit about your approach to your witchcraft, to the sorts of ritual. And I don't know if you call it spell work or not, or. That's tough. So the practical kind of implementation stuff.  Sarah: Yeah. So, yeah, I guess I do like what I call like skeptical witchcraft and it has a lot of overlap with like atheistic or like secular witchcraft as well. So like you said, there, there were a lot of people like doing this at the same time that I just didn't really like realize we're doing it and it, it kind of took me a while to find that. So it's cool that like, so many of us have kind of been like crafting our own practices. And there's a lot of like similarities there. So, so yeah, my like my particular approach to it is yeah. Using things like spells or like divination or ritual things that would be kind of in a more mainstream witchcraft practice and kind of taking the. I guess the more like supernatural magical elements out of it. So for me, it's largely psychological the way that I approach my witchcraft. So it's, it's largely about you know, setting intentions and like manifesting these intentions, not through transforming like actual physical reality, like out there in the world, but through kind of changing my own mindset, the way that I think about things improving my confidence in a lot of circumstances, you know, changing the way that I see things so that I can then change my own reality. Right. So it's Yeah. less about kind of changing the external world. And a lot of it has to do with like the placebo effect as well as kind of like a suspension of disbelief. And then I also kind of, I don't practice, like what's called chaos, magic and witchcraft necessarily, but like I do like the kind of idea coming out of chaos magic that belief can be used as a tool. And it's not so much necessarily like explanations that matter, but experiences that do. So sometimes I will use that like suspension of disbelief to kind of like allow myself in the moment to like believe in the reality of magic, believe in like the reality of stereotypes or, or something. And, and use that to, to benefit me, even if I like rationally know, like, like that kind of underlying level, that it's not actually true. It's, I'm using belief in the moment as a tool to, to kind of create these experiences and allow myself to to have those really like transformative moments.  Mark: Yeah, that's, you're, you're really singing our tune here. there's, there's so much power in that suspension of disbelief and the acting as if, you know, we, we all talk about the imposter syndrome, how we find ourselves in these roles where there's this voice in us going, I don't really know how to do this. How did they give me this job? Right. And that, that acting as if makes us able to do the job and to grow into the ability to do what we were, you know, what what's expected of us. I, I just think that all of that stuff is so fascinating and it's very similar to the way that I do my own ritual practices at my, at my focus or alter and in rituals, out in the world, Yucca: Can we, can we come back around to, to the too skeptical? Right? So you've got the skeptical, which, and what does that part mean to you? Right. So what is it to be a skeptic or skeptical? Because that has some strong connotations, that word in our, in our culture. So how are you using that? Sarah: Yeah, for Sure I guess that's just like where I was coming from it with with the skeptical idea was kind of just always questioning things. Never, just kind of accepting things like at face value, always having that like kind of inquisitive mind. And I think that that's important when it comes to like, you know, anything really. So like whether it's the supernatural or whether it's, you know, mainstream science, like, I think it's always important to be kind of asking questions and, and having like a skeptical outlook and not necessarily in like a negative way, but I think that that can be a positive. But then, yeah. But on the flip side, I also do kind of. I think that embracing mystery and sometimes knowing when to stop asking questions can also be a good thing as well. And I do try to find that balance too.  Yucca: Nice. Mark: skeptical, but not cynical. Sarah: Yeah. exactly. I like.  Mark: Yeah. So, you, the, the other part of, of introducing you is that you are a PhD camp. And religious studies and you're doing your work on naturalistic, paganism and naturalistic religious paths, which is so fascinating. I mean, if, if I had, if I were in grad school again, if it were 30 years ago or whatever it was that is a direction that I almost certainly would have gone. So I'm really interested in what you're learning and what those experiences are and what, how that's changing your perspective on the world. And what's important. All that kind of thing.  Sarah: Yeah,  Mark: There. Wasn't a question in there. I'm sorry. I. Sarah: No, no. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, I'm very happy that like, yeah, I guess the state of. Yeah, academia right now is such that I. can kind of study these more like obscure topics, things that probably would have been like laughed at like 15 years ago. So it's cool that this is becoming more and more acceptable. And actually one of the one of my committee members has actually studied atheopagan in the past as  well. So it's really interesting to know that it's kind of, spreading within the academic world as well. Yeah. So yeah, I'm, I'm really interested in my own personal research is probably going to be focusing on the connection between like religion and science and the environment. And these are topics that are sometimes discussed in relation to one another, but never like all three of them usually, like there isn't much kind of discussion around the intersection of all three of those. So that's kind of where I'm hoping to fill a bit of a gap. And I guess I'm really interested in like the question of secularization and like how that's transforming religion and religious meaning and spirituality and how. How people find transcendence and kind of, meaning beyond the individual ego within the modern secular world. And one of the ways that people are finding that is, is through nature now. And that's kind of replacing more traditional, like organized religion or like church structures nowadays. So that's yeah, that's the one kind of aspect of it. And also just how, like, even scientists are reporting feelings of like transcendence kind of just in the lab, looking at, you know, natural phenomena or astronauts kind of looking at it, or having these moments of awe and like, really like spiritually profound moments. So I'm really interested in, in how transcendence and like that experience is shifting and changing today. And Yeah. Also considering contested relationships that exist between like religion and the environment, and also like science and the environment. And so, and, and also religion and science, like for a lot of people, religion and science seem to be like polar opposites and that's not necessarily the case and religions like atheopagan ism and other forms of religious naturalism are really like challenging that binary. And it's just kind of interesting to explore how things are really shifting today.  Mark: Yeah. I, I find it fascinating, you know, kind of, you know, Yucca and I are both kind of in the middle of it because we're kind of working to get, put this out into the world. And to me, it just seems so natural now. I mean, I think when I was first exploring these ideas, religion and science were kind of bashing against one another, but when I stopped. Looking at it that way they seem to dovetail very well. And that, that sense, I don't really like the word transcendence very much except for sort of transcending the individual into some, you know, larger state of some consciousness of, of connection and place in the universe. It seems to me that what's happening is we're moving into an era of spiritual agency where people are able to choose their own paths rather than having them kind of force fed to them. And what they're going back to is what is most inspiring and nature is what is most inspiring and space. I mean, space is very, very inspiring. It's part of Yucca: nature, right? Nature. Yeah. It's all connected. Right? We liked it as humans. We like to separate. Okay. This is chemistry. This is physics. This is space. This is neat, but no, like it's all connected, right? Yeah. Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Mark: So I think this is a very exciting time to be getting involved with these questions. And there are a lot of people out there who are hungry for this. Have so many experiences of it on the atheopagan doesn't Facebook group of people coming in and saying, you know, I had no idea that anybody else felt this way. And I thought I was the only one and I found my people and this is just the most wonderful thing. And it, it makes, it makes me imagine a world. Where people could be taught from a young age that their spirituality is their own and they could be taught ritual skills so that they can sort of discover for themselves what's meaningful. I find that the further I go down this path, the more my vision of the world is veering away from the way it actually there's a lot of change that needs to happen. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's an interesting point though. And I think that that's like a really wonderful vision for the future too. And I do wonder, like, as someone who studies like alternative spirituality, like I do see things kind of going in that direction in some sense. So like a lot of like American spirituality today is, is very individualistic and it's criticized for that in some ways, but it can also be a good thing and that it's, you know, it's more about discovering what works for you and you know yeah, exactly. Like kind of giving you the, the, the tools for ritual and then kind of letting you discover what you will with that.  Yucca: Hmm. So Sarah, how does one go about studying and researching these topics? Because these are amazing questions, but w where does one even start? Right? This is such a huge, huge field, right? Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, I'm actually in the midst of doing my my comprehensive exams right? now. And I just did my general comprehensive exams and I'll be moving into my field comprehensive exams. And so I'm going to be studying kind of my committee is just going to put together a large list of books for me, like on these topics to kind of give you that, that foundation for, for actually going and then doing the research. And then the research that I'm hoping to do is going to be a mostly online ethnography, I think. So I'll be hopefully like engaging in various like religious naturalist kind of communities online and learning about it from the people who actually practice it. Like the, the secondary research is important. But it's, it's really that primary research. Define what we learned from this, what I learned from it, I guess.  Yucca: Right. So, so for our listeners, the secondary would be what you're talking about, digging into the existing research, right? Like you're going to learn, read all the books that you can find everything that's out there. And then you're going to do your primary research, which is the unique. Nobody has done this before. You're going to be, go into communities, ask questions, observe, be recording. What you, what you see and hear is that, am I understanding correctly?  Sarah: Yeah. yeah, exactly. Yeah.  Mark: Well, we have a golden opportunity for you coming up in may. If you want to do some field research, we're doing the century retreat in Colorado Springs in may. We would be delighted to have you come and join. A bunch of atheopagan is doing atheopagan things, rituals, fellowship, and all that. Sarah: Yeah, that. sounds fantastic. Yeah,  Mark: I'll send you some information about it. Yeah. Sarah: perfect. Yeah. that'd be great. Thank you.  Mark: You're welcome. Be great to have you there. Yucca: So after, after your, your kind of literature review set part of your studies, then you're going to be coming up with a specific question you're looking for an answer to, that, is that how it works?  Sarah: yeah. Yeah, exactly. So after these exams, they kind of, the literature review. I'm gonna create my, my proposal basically. That will then allow me to go and actually figure out what the answer to that question is. So  Yucca: then you create a lot of literature of your own to add to that body, right? That's part of the process, Sarah: hopefully that's the goal. Yeah.  Mark: and so, and I realized that this is a really dirty question to ask a PhD candidate. What is your vision for what you'll do with this is your plan to go into academia and teach in religious studies or to be a chaplain or to be a naturalistic clergy member of some kind or. Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I, I'm hoping to go into academia further, but unfortunately right now it's, it's it's not looking good for new  Yucca: the changing world. Sarah: Yeah.  So unfortunately, you know, we'll see if that's actually a reality, but I, I do hope to, to write a lot on kind of what I've discovered, like that's kind of my number one passion. And I think that got me into academics in the first place was just a love for writing. So hopefully that's something that I'll be able to do, regardless of whether I actually get hired in a university or not.  Mark: great. Great. You could write the the naturalistic paganism drawing down the moon for the 21st century. It'd be great.  Sarah: Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. I was listening to one of your or watching one of your YouTube videos recently, and you were talking about post humanism and I'm really interested in that because I feel that. a lot of, a lot of how our spiritual orientations are trying to sort of steer the ship of history is in a more nature revering ecosystem, respecting direction. And of course it's very slow, but that perspective of getting beyond humanism, beyond the focus, simply on the human and the benefit to the human and that's, that's not discounting the human as I, at least as I understand it, it's encompassing of the human, but it expands to be so much more. What, tell us about that. That would be.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah post humanism is kind of like a philosophy worldview or just kind of a an approach to kind of thinking about things. That's very much a reaction against like enlightenment humanism, so that focus on human beings as these like bounded rational subjects that exists in kind of like this isolated world of their own. They're kind of separate from the rest of the world. They're separate from other people. There's an emphasis on dualisms and humanism. So kind of creating that separation between self and other self and world human and, or like nature and culture and postmodernism is just reacting against that and really trying to deconstruct those dualisms. And there's a lot of like that enlightenment humanist kind of thinking, that's still within a lot of our modern systems and like a lot of our modern ways of thinking about things. So, that's, that's kind of where post-feminism is coming from. And it especially plays a role in how I approach, like thinking about the environment and ecology, and also spirituality is like part of that. So, I guess one of the Major kind of criticisms of, of like environmentalism or like conservation ism today. And this is something that you guys can maybe enlightened me about a little bit as well, is that there's a very like subject object. Dichotomous way of thinking about things. So the researcher or like science in general, like this kind of scientific body of knowledge will often be positioned as having this like neutral kind of God's eye view. That's like separate from the actual natural world, separate from things as they are. And, and it's like a very disembodied kind of way of thinking about things that doesn't think about human beings necessarily as, as part of that like natural world. And I guess we see this a lot in kind of like resource management kind of based ways of thinking about ecology and Ways of thinking about it that are very focused on like the economy and things. So I, the post-human approach and like new materialism, which is a part of that. And all of this is kind of part of a of a critique of that and a critique of like, this is a barrier that's really constructed between like nature and culture. And I know that that's like also something that like atheopagan ism is, is concerned with and the, you guys have kind of discussed on the podcast as well. And so. There have been arguments within like science and technology studies or like environmentalism that say we need kind of like a, a spiritual perspective almost to kind of combat that, that divide and to kind of be thinking about forming more like ethical reciprocal relationships with the non-human world in ways that are like actually helpful to both us ans and the non-human world. So, yeah, so I think like a post-human perspective and a spiritual perspective can go hand in hand in that sense. And I, that's kind of how I connect them in my own thinking. So yeah. I wonder what you guys think of other thought as well.  Yucca: Oh so much. Mark: Yes, Yucca: so much in that. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah.  Mark: have no dispute here. Yucca: Yeah. I mean, there was, there was just so, like, I love everything that you were saying and just, you know, my mind just went full of things to comment upon that. My, my original background is in resource management, so, range, ecology and management, and then agricultural ecology before I went into planetary science. So I still actually work as an ecologist and a restoration ecologist specifically for range land. And one of the, the things that I've seen in the field is that a lot of science we're coming from this reductionist point of view and reductionism is really, really helpful and useful way of thinking. It's a tool. And in ecology, we've been starting to move away from that into a more systems thinking emergence, sort of. That starts to see the connections, but there's, there's still more right? There's that the ethics piece that you were talking about, which is what I think things like permaculture tries to address that's guided with the like, oh, let's have, you know, people care and fair share and are sharing all of that. But there's this tricky place where we get into where we run into things like our confirmation bias that we talk about a lot on this podcast that we haven't figured out a way to do really good science and also bring in the, the systems thinking enough, I think because we, we get into this place where we were humans. We're not very good at telling the difference between what we think and what we feel. And we confused my, my emotional response to what this land looks like or what, you know, I believe about this particular animal or that animal. And we kind of let that in. And so I think there's a lot of resistance with scientists of not wanting the, all of that bias to come in. And that's part of, what's like trying to hold back. The let's not think about that side of it because we, we don't want to be doing bad science, but we haven't gotten to the point of where we need to bring more, to expand our understanding of what these systems are kind of rambling here, but yeah, Mark: No, I, I, I, I think what you're saying is absolutely true. And part of the problem is that in the scientific frame, we discount the experiential and subjective Yucca: right. Mark: and the experiential, we discounted to the point that we throw it away entirely. Yucca: Yeah. So we're putting the baby out with the bath water because it's important, but we also don't want it to take over the objective part, right? Mark: Yeah. You don't want to romanticize the, the natural system that you're looking at to the degree that you can't make any decisions anymore about how to relate to it. Yucca: yeah. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess kind of like adding to that, like another aspect of post-feminism is giving voice to people's who have been previously silenced by who have not necessarily been considered human because they have not been considered, you know, rational. Communities people. So like indigenous peoples for example and post-feminism kind of is trying to center those voices a little more. And I think that that's also like something in ecology as well, that we're seeing too, like taking these more kind of like spiritual, not necessarily like Western science-based kind of perspectives and applying that to how we understand our relationships with the environment and how they can be improved and things. So, is that something that you've noticed as well? Like maybe more so  Mark: Some  Sarah: ecology today? A little bit.  Mark: it, the challenge that I've experienced, because most of my involvement has been well, there've been kind of two buckets of what I've done. I've done a lot of advocacy, a lot of public organizing and advocacy on behalf of, of nature. And then I've also worked in the restoration field. Basically generating the funding to pay for restoration projects. I'm not designing those projects. That's not my area, but what I've seen, especially on the advocacy side is that there is such complete contempt for the experiential on the part of economic interests. Then it becomes very difficult to even get them in the room. You know, there's the whole NIMBY thing, right? Not in my backyard is an accusation that gets made by everybody who wants to do some God awful earth ribbing project. And their, their response is, well, this is my land. And I want to maximize the economic value that I can get out of it. And it doesn't matter, you know, if it doesn't matter what a complete. Blight on the land. It's going to be, as long as they can quantify that there, they won't have polluted runoff or air quality impacts or any of those kinds of things. You know, the simple fact that something is an abomination, doesn't get into the discussion. Yucca: My, my situation we live in, in very different areas. I'm in Northern New Mexico, which is very interesting cultural area. And there's a lot of, of tensions that are, are, you know, centuries old tensions around land use and management. Because we have, we, we talk about it as being three different main groups, but it's it's much, much more complex than that. So we have the pueblos here, so we've got the tribes and then we have the old Spanish families and then we have the newer Anglos. And then a lot of that land is managed now by forest service and BLM and from almost everyone's perspective, it was stolen from them. So there's a whole. Going on with that. But what I have been often involved with, because again, my area is actually in range. Ecology is dealing with public lands where there will be people with very, very strong ideas about what animals are good and what aren't and what things should look like and what things shouldn't look like. And I think a lot of it is also like they would never admit it, but I think a lot of it is, is racially motivated because the people who are. Ranchers. Aren't Anglo. And so there's a, there's a lot of like people who come in, especially from, other states and Northern, sorry, Northern California can come in with very strong ideas about how the land should be managed and about what's environmentally right. And not, and have a really hard time listening to what the people are saying. And to, to even be able to see that something like a cow could be good, right. If the people have these really strong ideas, they come in with the, like the super vegan bias and all of that. And like, oh, you can't don't touch the land. And it's pristine wilderness and forgetting, but people have been here for thousands of years and people have been here for hundreds of years and that there, that there's there's. There's the science, there's also the way that people manage culturally. And we have to consider all of those things, not just, and also that some of the signs that they're bringing in might not be good science that they're claiming, right.  That they don't understand how ranges work and how these systems work. And so where I live, it's, it's there's just a lot of, of tension and there's a lot of, people trying to work this out and different, cultural groups clashing and not really being able to talk about what's really going on. And it's a lot of, it's very emotional and old trauma and people totally oblivious. And I mean, that's, this could be a whole, it is many, many podcasts. Lots of people do this. But it's a very interesting area. So I know that you, you kind of coming back to your question about do we see that in our fields. That the, there being a, a growing awareness. And I think that there, there is a growing awareness. I see a lot of places where we need the work. Right. It's a very where I live. It's, it's very raw. It's very, very real. And it's right. Like I, you know, I, I don't know if you can hear it, but I, you know, have very strong feelings about it because I look at as a range of colleges, I look at the land and I, and I see that it's, that it's very, very damaged land. But then, you know, it's hard to say that because there'll be people who, who go, but it's so beautiful. Right. You know, leave it alone. Don't do anything. Don't touch it. And then ecologists like myself going, if we don't touch it, we're losing it. Mark: It it'll get covered with star thistle and nothing else. Yucca: or nothing. We're talking about land that has, that is we do not have soil in these areas and they're going, oh no, this is natural. And I'm like, this does not look that this erosion here, like we have to do something and they say, no, no, no humans have messed it up. Humans can't go in and touch it. You know, we we've messed everything up, but it's like, well, okay. But if the broken bone is broken, you need to set that bone. You've got to get involved. Or else, I guess we could let nature take its path in that. And just as in, let it degrade even further and lose even more biodiversity where we can take some steps. Right. so Mark: the big piece that I hear missing from your description of the situation, and it's the same one that I experienced up here is the concept of reciprocity that we have. Responsibilities to land and animals and water and air and trees and all that kind of thing. And that, that w what we take has to be balanced by what we give. And that's just such an alien concept in the west that it, it almost never even gets voiced. Yucca: Well, and, and at least for this half of the continent, I think it it's, we're not at a point of balance. We're at a point of, we need to be giving more because we have such degraded lands and, and being that humans have such short lifespans, we may not recognize that at first, right. We might look out at the west or we might look out at the planes and go, oh, this is beautiful. And it is beautiful, but it's also hurt and sick and we can, we can see that it needs to be that. That it is degrading and that it's going to keep degrading unless we do something. So, Mark: Okay. Yucca: Yeah,  Sarah: yeah, no, for sure. Yeah. And I think that that's also, I guess, I guess like a perspective that could tie into post you as, as well just like kind of going back to that like the, the idea of like pure nature is, is just an illusion and to have that human intervention is not a bad thing. And yeah. And I guess there have been some like, oh, sorry, go ahead.  Yucca: part of nature, right? Like that's showing this idea that like, human shouldn't intervene. Well, no, but, but we're here and at least where I'm sitting right now, we've been here for about 20,000 years, right. Or more, but at least 20,000 years, we know that, right. Like humans, we talk about us as if we're oh, humans intervening, but, but no matter what we do, we're influencing. The system so we can choose what we're like, we're making choices either way. So, and I'm sorry, Sarah. I jumped, I was very excited and  Sarah: Oh no, Yeah. no, no. Yeah. exactly. No, that's a great point. And yeah, it was just going to say, like, this is also something that like, you know, indigenous people, like who have been on this land for thousands of years, like they've, they've known that for, for millennia. And you know, that's kind of where I think listening to these voices can be really important and then kind of learning from that. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah. And indigenous people, some, some indigenous people have in their history, the experience of the disaster of mismanagement of land, right. There are, you know, abandoned civilizations where, you know, soil got so depleted that it just couldn't produce food anymore. And people had to move out and go somewhere else. The end. That's very powerful lesson, you know, I would think you would learn a lot from having to disrupt your culture that seriously. So I've been thinking a lot lately about vision for the future. I mean, I, I think of atheopagan ism is as having a definite political component to it and and it, and a visionary component for how humans can live with one another and with the earth with the rest of the earth, because we are of course the earth. And I wonder. wonder whether your research is going to move, it will include any like speculation about where naturalistic spirituality is going. Or if you have thoughts about that or, you know, what the trends are that you see happening,  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think that that's, I mean, like, that's honestly, probably like one of the big questions that my research is going to be asking, because I think that is like a really important question. And I think, you know, what, what I've seen so far is that. What's really important is this shift in mindset that we've been talking about, like kind of moving away from like that, that divide between like peer nature and like human and nature and culture, and like, you know, breaking down those barriers and entering into like more reciprocal relationships with the non-human and kind of seeing it in more of a kinship sense. And I guess, yeah, like one of the big questions that I do want to ask is like, how can religions help us in this? Like it beyond the context of those specific religions, right? Like how can this become more of a, a political or global kind of thing that we're thinking about? And You know, I don't necessarily like have an answer for that yet, but that is something that I do hope to answer. And I think that it's, it's really going to be the people that I talk to or who are going to be answering that. And like, it's going to come out of, you know, seeing, seeing the work that they're doing and the kind of mindsets that they have and the approaches that they take to engaging with the environment and considering how, how we can learn from that in, in a, in a more broad kind of sense. So, yeah, it's definitely an important question.  Yucca: One of the things that you talked about being really interested in was how, how people find meaning and importance and talking about how in, in some of these forms of paganism, like an atheopagan ism and other alternative religions that are more nature-based and science-based how people are, are looking for that meaning. Is that something that, I mean, can you speak to that a little bit?  Sarah: Yeah. Do you mean like from a personal  Yucca: no. Oh, either way, like from a personal sense or things or trends that you've been seeing, I know you're just getting started with your research, but are there particular trends that you're seeing. Sarah: yeah. Yeah, so I think that like in general they're often like when thinking about like modern, secular society from, from kind of a mainstream perspective, there's often been this idea that like, you know, rationalization and like this kind of. The more scientifically become the less and chanted the world becomes. And the less like, meaningful the world becomes an kind of like an ethical or like sacred sense. And I think from what I've been studying, this isn't the case at all, like secularization may cause like, a decline in more organized forms of religion. But I think it also increases religious pluralism and it increases like more kind of individual approaches to, to finding spiritual meaning. And I think that we're also really seeing like a blurring of the sacred and the secular and that's, that's also something I'm really interested in is how you know, things that would have once been considered secular, like nature are becoming very spiritual and people are finding kind of their own version of the divine in that, whatever that may be. Or the transcendent and I don't mean that in like a God way necessarily. I just mean it in, I think kind of what you said, mark, like, something that's bigger than, than you kind of sense or like a, a sense of yeah, just, just meaning that, that goes beyond that, like ego or, or kind of our, our everyday lives that we're caught up in and things like that. So, yeah, so nature is kind of one area even science, sports, you know, also like popular culture and materialism, like even, even that can be like a place where people are finding like maybe not spiritual experiences, but like different kinds of, like, of meaning and, and yeah, if that kinda makes sense.  Mark: Sure. Well, I mean, under, under capitalism, what you accumulate is who you are. So, you know, the, your identity gets all bound up in the meaning of your life. It's all bound up in, you know, your wealth and your possessions. Oh, that kind of stuff. So, I mean, I'm, I really hope we can move away from that because it's incredibly destructive, but there's no doubt that acquisition is something that many people find gives them meaning in their life. And I think that's why we have a lot of people who have kind of a hole in the middle of them. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, sure, sure.  Yucca: So Sarah, when you, when you speak of secular or secularization, what do you, what do you mean by that? Right. Because a lot of the, cause you're talking about religion, but secular this, it could be a little bit like I'm a little bit confused sometimes on what does that really mean? Right? Is it just not organized religion or is it no religion at all? Is that word changing? Its meaning over time. Sarah: Yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah, that's a good question. I should have addressed that kind of going into it, but it is like a really complex question too. So like secularization, as we generally think about it kind of comes out of like the 1960s sociology and like that general idea was just like a decline in religion in modern society. So that's like, that's the typical way of thinking about secularization is that like, you know, as you know, we learn more about the world and we have kind of more scientific knowledge about the world around us religious religions they were thought anyway to that they would be declining. And, and we're not necessarily seeing that. So. The secular in general is more just like this idea that we live now in a society where, well, the way that I see it anyway, there's many different ways of approaching it, but like it's more than we just, we live in a society where we, where religion is, is an option. Now it's one option among many kind of, so, You know, whereas like 200 years ago it would have been pretty like unthinkable that you weren't religious in some sense. Right. But now it's, it's, you know, it's just an option and belief isn't like the default anymore. And so that's kind of like the idea of the secular as I'm talking about it. And Yeah. So, secularization is also something that I'm going to be kind of looking at in my own research. And it's something that my supervisor is kind of looking at and just like this idea of, we need to redefine what secularization actually is, because we're not seeing this decline in religion. That was that was predicted in, in the way that it was predicted. Religion is changing, but it's not disappearing Yucca: So, was it referring in the beginning when, like not being religious to not being one of like the big three kind of,  Sarah: kind of,  Yucca: religion at all? Cause I know there's been over time, there's been back and forth about what people consider religion. That's one of the things that atheopagan get thrown at them a lot. So he can't possibly be a religion cause you're not, you don't believe in a God. Right. And people have said that about Buddhism and people have said that about, you know, a lot of the Eastern religions or things like that. Sarah: Yeah, no, for sure. It was definitely like thought that kind of yeah, like religion in general and like, just like a religious way of seeing things. So like, I guess in opposed to like a scientific way of seeing things. But also there's no necessarily no necessarily kind of like harsh divide between those things but, but yeah, I guess like secularization in the, in the 1960s, when it was first kind of theorized was, was very much of a, like um, yeah, these kind of main organized religious traditions and they are kind of declining. I think that. but in like an organized sense. more just they're changing, I guess.  Mark: Sure because I mean, the spiritual impulse is something that's baked into us. You know, many of us have kind of culturally headed hammered out of us. Particularly men. I mean, when I, when I look at mainstream men, I they're, they're permitted an effect is so narrow. They're allowed to be aggressive or angry. That's their emotional range. And they've got this work ethic about, you know, work yourself to death and, you know, don't, don't acknowledge when things are going wrong with your body and all that kind of stuff. But it seems as though. Given an opportunity given, given a culture that fosters it, the spiritual impulse is something that pretty much everybody has because it answers big questions about who am I and what does it mean to be alive and how should I live? And, you know, those are, those are important questions to get answered for yourself. So I think this idea from the sixties that we were going to become more and more rational actors in a sort of economic sense it just flies in the face of reality. I talk about this in my book a little bit. You know, the reason that Richard Dawkins is barking up the wrong tree is that he assumes that humans are these rational creatures. If they can just get all that damn religion out of their minds. And we are inherently biologically, not rational actors, the nature of our brains as they evolved, prevent us from being rational actors, which is why science is so valuable because it enables us to kind of filter out the subjectivity as best we can and draw conclusions. But I dunno, I'm ranting now, but I, I just feel like spirituality is something that's always going to be with us for as long as we're human.  Sarah: for sure. And I really like appreciated that part of your, your book was kind of discussing like, that aspect of human cognition that is just kind of inclined towards spirituality or religion, or like finding meaning in some way. And I think it's, it's very true and this kind of assumption that we would just become like overly rational and kind of let go of that spiritual impulse. I think it was kind of fundamentally flood and that's why we're not seeing it. And Yeah. Mark: Well, let me ask this. Is there anything you would like for our listeners to know about you're thinking about, you know, what you're learning that you're you find surprising or edifying or something that really people really need to know? Sarah: That's, that's a good question. One thing that I've just kind of experienced, I guess, just from like, Do we like having this YouTube channel and having a blog and everything and kind of putting what I'm learning online is that my thinking is constantly changing. And I'll go back like, and listen to like a video that I did a year ago. And I'll think like, you know, I still hold some of those beliefs, but a lot of them have changed and it's just kind of constantly changing. And I think that, I guess that's maybe something that I'd want people to know, like if they watched my content. But other than that I guess just the importance of finding your own path when it comes to spirituality and religion and witchcraft. I get like a lot of. Comments from viewers saying that, you know, they, they always felt like they couldn't practice witchcraft or they couldn't be religious because there's just this very, you know, they kind of see the mainstream dominant way of practicing witchcraft or being religious and, and they, they don't see themselves in that. But I think that, you know? having discussions like these and like your, your your podcast and like, your work and everything that kind of goes to show that there are different ways of, of being a Pegan today. And there are different ways of practicing witchcraft and, and being religious. And you don't have to kind of conform to. but what seems to be expected in that sense. And even if people find it weird, even if people find it confusing there is always going to be someone who thinks similarly to you. And it's just a matter of finding that, I think. Mark: But I saw a bumper sticker once it said something like there are others. Go find them.  Sarah: Yeah,  Mark: However alone you feel there are others go find them, Yucca: well, and that's how it always starts. Right? What's normal to us and expected today was weird and strange. And there were just only a few people doing it at one point, right. We, today we can sit here and talk about mainstream paganism. Right? Think about that for a moment. That was not that wasn't something we, that one used to be able to do. Everything was weird and confusing and kind of, you know, looked down the nose at, but now the whole movement is growing and, and it's going to be changing and. And, you know, you can fit into it or not. There's a way that works for you. Sarah: Yeah.  Mark: When WCA has been referenced, recognized by the U S government as a, as an official religion for purposes of the military, that's a, that's a pretty big step. Yucca: Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. definitely. Yeah. It's not so fringe anymore.  Mark: Right? Right. Well, you know, do believe that a lot of what's happening with the, the, the rise of the nones, N O N E S in, certainly in the United States has to do with people flocking away from the hardcore right-wing ideologies of many of those religious entities and paganism by and large is not. It's generally something that's much more inclusive, much more tolerant, much more progressive. It's about people developing themselves and being the best people they can be. And it's about a better world. And I, you know, for the same reasons that people are attracted to star Trek, I think they get attracted to, you know, being part of a movement. That's about being better people and being part of a better world.  Sarah: Yeah, definitely.  Mark: Well, Sarah, this has been wonderful. It has really been enjoyable to talk with you about all this. And as Yucca said, we could go on for another three hours about all the, all the things. I really encourage people to check out your YouTube channel the skeptical, which Yucca: LinkedIn, the show notes. Mark: Good. Okay. Very thoughtful, very interesting engaging stuff. So, and we, we really appreciate your coming on the podcast. It's been great to have you here. Sarah: Yeah, it's been really great to be on here. So thank you guys so much.  Yucca: Thanks Sarah.  

In this episode, Marc and Sarah discuss the latest Conference of the Parties and whether the outcomes from that meeting matched our expectations, and, real talk, what we expect to happen next. This episode was recorded on Wednesday, November 10, 2021, on the 10th day of COP26.You can watch this episode on our YouTube channel, or join us live when we record new episodes on our Twitch channel — Follow us there to be notified when we go live. Links mentioned in this episode:NYT articleRolling Stones articleGreta's speech[00:00:29] Sarah: I'm trying out using my phone as a webcam because it's better in low light. So there might be, I dunno, a delay. How do I look? Am I in sync with my words?[00:00:39] Marc: There's a little bit of a delay. Yeah. And you got this cool icon on your leg. [00:00:45] Sarah: That's the app I'm using. Cause I didn't pay for it. Anyway, we are gathered here today to record another episode of the, we are climate designers podcast, the raising hell edition or series. This is about the eighth, I think, episode in this series. So we've got quite a collection recorded. We just released the second one today on our podcast. So if you'd rather listen slash watch while we are doing these live, instead of waiting for them to come out on the podcast, you can follow us on Twitch at twitch.tv/climatedesigners.And following us there should give you a notification when we go live and you can hop on and watch right there. If anyone is watching us live, please say hi in the chat. Let us know. It would be great to hear from you, let us know if you had any questions, be part of the show. That's the whole point. Today, we decided that we wanted to find out what the heck is going on with cop 26, neither Marc, nor I have been following the proceedings very closely. So we decided that we're just going to get ourselves caught up, live on stream and figure out what the heck is going on and discuss it. So it's new to us if it's new to you too, great, follow along! For those that don't know, cop 26 is conference of the parties. I believe the 26 is how many meetings they have and they meet once a year. Is that right? So they've been doing this for 26 years. [00:02:35] Marc: Maybe we should meet and other throughout the year as well. [00:02:41] Sarah: Pretty sure it's an annual thing.And this is the 26th year. And just thinking about that is just mind blowing in and of itself. We'll get into this. I am sure. But in actually in the second episode, which I mentioned that I did publish today, I was listening to it today or yesterday. And I remember that I had mentioned in that second episode my hopes and dreams, like my wildest hopes and dreams for cop 26, what could possibly come out of it.And it doesn't sound like it's going that way. They still have two more days of. Conferencing. Oh yeah. I was going to say more about what it is. It's, the conference of the parties. So it's United nations, all of the countries in the United nations. It's what came, it's what brought forth the Paris agreement.So I believe it's all of the countries involved in the Paris agreement. And it's basically delegates negotiators who get together every year to discuss what the heck they're going to do about climate. And that's why I'm. So my mind is so boggled by thinking that it's the 26th year, but when you dive into the history of all of the conference of the parties it's a long kind of exhausting series of negotiations between the countries about forming agreements and treaties and all this stuff.Leading up to the Paris agreement. There were agreements that were going to go into place before the Paris agreement. And then usually it was the United States actually that pulled out. And then if the United States wasn't in a bunch of other big polluting countries would then pull out and the whole thing would fall apart.So it's really been kind of a shit show for many years. And most of that has been the United States as well. Including Donald Trump, pulling out of the Paris agreement and then bite and putting the us back in. And it's just, it's a humongous mess. It's a big mess. But I think most of us had high hopes that this time would be different because we don't have Trump in office anymore. We have fight in who put us into the Paris agreement again and has made some pretty big claims about intentions to do something about climate. And yeah, in the second episode I had said my biggest, most wildest far-reaching dreams would be for all of these countries to come together and make an agreement. About like a whole new economy that doesn't rely on growth because the global economy right now relies on 3% growth. We've talked about this before, which means the entire world has to produce and therefore pollute more 3% more every year, which means even if we transform our entire energy system to non-fossil fuel, renewable electricity energy, and get rid of fossil fuels completely the amount of minerals and water and just deforestation to even create that much renewable infrastructure.We have to do all of that again in about 30 or 40 years. And then again, in 30 or 40 years after that, like that 3% growth requires growth and energy growth in mining growth in deforestation growth in like a whole lot of destructive stuff. Okay. What we really need to do is for those countries to come together and renegotiate, that everybody knows everybody money.At this point, the 3% growth goes towards paying back those debts. When the economy is not growing, we go into a recession and debts, don't get paid and new jobs are not created and people get unemployed and it's just bad news. And that is all by design. So what we need is a different system that aims to reach a steady state.So we can just get off of fossil fuels, meet our needs and not grow anymore, not polluted anymore. Live within the bounds that this planet is physics require of us. Anyway, that was my big hopes and dreams. So that didn't, that doesn't look like it's going to happen. So where should we start?Mark? You've read some stuff. I've read some stuff. We're going to read some stuff online and get ourselves caught up and up to speed with what the heck is going on. [00:07:14] Marc: Yeah. I have no idea where to start. We could just break down exactly what you just shared in the last few minutes, and that could be the whole podcast right there.[00:07:21] Sarah: Have you checked out any bad articles or videos or anything like that? [00:07:25] Marc: Yeah, I've been trying to get a diverse set of sources on my feed and a variety of platforms. Social, obviously there's a lot of great Instagram accounts. I follow a ton of climate newsletters. For better or worse.I try to read some of them. I can. I know you and I earlier talked about the New York times comment forward had to an update on this latest deal that happened just earlier today. Wednesday, I guess us [00:07:52] Sarah: time. Yeah. And we're recording this Wednesday, November 10th. [00:07:56] Marc: Yeah. So a few hours old that piece of news came in and I'm trying to find my notes.[00:08:02] Sarah: Yeah. Let's dive into it to guess just to educate ourselves and I don't know anyone else. Cause I like as a designer, my whole life. We're usually pretty busy with the work that we're doing. In general design is pretty demanding of your focus and attention, and you kinda have to focus and attend to the projects that you're working on.And so it's hard to also pay attention to the things that are going on in the news. Like some of the, be more hardcore environmental activists do. So I imagine that a lot of the people who might be watching or listening to this are in the same boat as you and me and mark were like, we're interested in this stuff, but it's just like the amount of time and attention that we have to put towards it is very limited.So it's hard to keep up. [00:08:54] Marc: Yeah. I'm so behind on my climate stuff this last semester, last few months. [00:09:01] Sarah: Yeah. Do you want to start with the New York times? Yeah. [00:09:04] Marc: Yeah, no. I want to go back to this deal that was released earlier today. It's basically a draft and not a deal, a draft that urges countries to revisit and strengthen in the next year.Their plans for cutting planet warming, greenhouse gas emissions, the draft also urges nations to quote, accelerate the phasing out of coal and to stop subsidizing oil and gas. That's huge. If that actually does happen, [00:09:30] Sarah: that's [00:09:30] Marc: pretty good keyword if it actually does. [00:09:34] Sarah: So where are you reading this [00:09:35] Marc: from a New York times article that we mentioned earlier and it just refreshed, just I lost my [00:09:41] Sarah: place.I love it. When that happens. So what I have on my screen from the New York times is I guess I'll just share my screen here so that we can show some visuals while we're talking.Okay. We headline says what happened at cop 26 on Wednesday, China and USA say they'll enhance climate ambition. And just the wording of that, like who comes up with these things "enhance." And I love that it's in quotes. What does that mean? [00:10:10] Marc: Do you remember? One of the first video means years ago the enhance video.That's what it feels like, every time. I see that word, I think about going back to that main video of all the different clips and movies and TV shows of let's enhance that. [00:10:24] Sarah: Can we enhance that? And it zooms in on this really blurry pixelated piece of camera footage, and then you just I don't know, click a button or something in the artificial intelligence, makes it to super cool, clear through their movie magic, [00:10:38] Marc: it's like a nod to that, let's enhance the climate ambition, but that's how [00:10:43] Sarah: I read it.It's like a joke, right? Yeah. Seriously. Yeah. Enhanced climate ambition. And then the second word there, that's a joke is ambition. Is it just me or I read ambition as not action, like aims, like wishes [00:11:00] Marc: goals.[00:11:01] Sarah: Okay. Anyway the countries vow to do more, to cut greenhouse gases in a, an agreement that commits Beijing to addressing its methane emissions. Here's what you need to know. China and the U S say, they'll do more to cut emissions this decade, the working draft calls for a faster end to coal and tells countries to stop subsidizing oil and gas.That's the part that I do, [00:11:24] Marc: Yeah. That's, like I said, if it, that actually goes through, that'll be huge. [00:11:28] Sarah: And then there's something about sticking points. I don't really know what that means. Six big automakers and dozens of countries agree to phase out gas card sales. So that's actually pretty huge too.I clicked on one of those and it said some of them, I think I do have this open some of the car makers were saying, they're going to phase out gas car sales as early as 2025 or 2030. So that's really soon. Which means you won't be able to buy a gas car, at least from that car maker. And then it said something like the US was not involved.So any US car makers did not I don't know, like pulled out of that deal [00:12:04] Marc: or something and. Transportation secretary mayor, Pete, his response was more or less. We're going to focus on our own problems [00:12:12] Sarah: here at home. [00:12:13] Marc: That fuck dude, it's such a political. Yeah. It's such a political line. It's [00:12:18] Sarah: like this one wants to focus on saving lives rather than saving the planet.What do you think we're doing [00:12:24] Marc: exactly? [00:12:26] Sarah: Where do you think that these lives [00:12:27] Marc: live? And again, our climate crisis, the changing climate knows no borders. [00:12:34] Sarah: I think that these people do not understand what it is that we're actually dealing [00:12:39] Marc: with. I think they understand. I think that there's they have interests in other places.They have people, behind the scenes, urging them, pushing them towards certain, goals or ambitions or policy. [00:12:53] Sarah: Those things are true. And if you put something in terms of focus on saving lives, rather than saving the planet as if they are mutually exclusive. Sure. Yeah. I don't think you understand the situation.[00:13:08] Marc: Yeah. Again, that's a, we can talk about that next time we jump on. [00:13:12] Sarah: Yeah. I am just like making funny faces. I don't even know if my camera's up to speed yet. I'm just like looking at that, like.[00:13:19] Marc: yeah. So I think the two big things that you and I pulled out of that bulleted list, that summary Yeah. So the draft thing about phasing out coal and to stop subsidizing or like that, I think that's a huge push now again, whether or not that actually happens who goes first who's going to lead that part of the draft that is still yet to be determined.[00:13:41] Sarah: We both see the challenge of climate change as an essential and a severe one as two major powers in the world, China and the United States. We need to take our due responsibility and work together and work with others in the spirit of cooperation to address climate change. I like that too. Because I remember it, not that long ago, during the Trump administration, particularly there was a lot of delay ism or denialism of not doing any climate action.If China's not going to do it, or vice versa. And so now it's like China and the United States are coming both coming forward together and saying, it's our responsibility to do this, blah, blah, blah, which is a completely different tone, note that they've been singing than before. So that's, I think that's a good, that's a good thing, right?Like it's [00:14:32] Marc: progress. Yeah. You can't do much without China. [00:14:35] Sarah: Yeah. And to be fair, China has done a lot in the last, I don't know, even like 10 years as far as cutting back on coal, I believe. Yeah. And a lot of that is because the pollution, the air pollution, the air quality in some of the big cities where a lot of production is happening is, visibly and you can feel, you can smell it, you can see it, you can feel it.So they have that felt experience and motivation to cut back on all that air pollution.[00:15:07] Marc: So some other things that this article pulled out that happened today. Yesterday on Tuesday, speaking of yesterday the UN researchers released a report, same article Sarah. So I'm just still sticking with us. They released a report that found that under country's current pledges to reduce emissions, the earth is on track to warm by 2.5 degrees Celsius, 4.5 Fahrenheit.So if we just stick with what we're doing now, because every country thinks they're doing the best, we hear this all the time. Like we're doing all, we can, all the other people that are the naysayers, they're like we just can't switch over to renewables tomorrow. Like we need to, the status quo.If every country just sticks to the status quo, we are in big trouble. So it coming from the UN it wasn't new news, but it was like them saying, Hey, y'all seriously real talk. So I thought that was really interesting that report. It might have all this, but it's also one of those no shit.[00:16:06] Sarah: Yeah. The,I guess what I'm asking in my head about is the tangible actions that come from these things. So I'm looking at things like the document will be used as a template to strike a deal. Okay. Still a lack of firm deadlines and enforcement mechanisms. Is it all just empty words? It's really frustrating.[00:16:30] Marc: Yeah. And it's two weeks, right? The last day is November 12th. You can do a lot in two weeks, I'm sorry, but you could do a lot in two weeks. And if by day 10, right now they have frameworks, they have a template, they have whatever it is that you just shared out. Like really, and I know this is big heady, complicated stuff, but maybe the, maybe cops should be 30 days into a whole month or just lock everyone in a, not let them out, [00:17:01] Sarah: yeah. The original Bretton woods, the agreement where the countries and it wasn't all the countries, it was just like basically the UK and the United States and maybe a couple of other European countries where they decided that they were going to focus on an economy that grows 3% to repay each other for their debts from recovering, from world war II, basically.That was all hammered out in 10.[00:17:25] Marc: So if it took 10 days to create a system that more or less has destroyed the planet or is destroying the planet, we can spend 10 days cleaning up at least 10 days, [00:17:39] Sarah: yeah, [00:17:40] Marc: I want to pause you right there. I'm seeing your screen. I have this pulled up myself. Tensions have flared over what sorts of financial aid richer countries should give poorer ones to deal with the rising damage from heat waves, floods, droughts, and storms.And while there is broad agreement that most nations aren't cutting their greenhouse gas emissions quickly, there's far less consensus about how to get deeper reductions. It's that the first sentence there really stood out for me. And I was talking to Rachel about this not to get too hippy dippy for those who don't know, I live in San Francisco.Sometimes peace, love and happiness comes out in me and I'm all about it, but so cute, zooming out. I really do feel like as much as we're talking about cutting emissions, renewable energy, all that, climate stuff at the same time, I really do believe that we need to have a conversation around just being more kind and loving to one another, because all of this is going to take massive collaboration.There's going to be a lot of sacrifice. We have to really understand how humans work. And so with that, we need to really work on ourselves and our relationships with one another. So when I read that tensions flared over was it's like, all these countries have representative from every country, the rich ones, and the poor ones are in a room.And I can only imagine kind of their body language and just, if we had some fun with this, vision, you have the poor countries, trying to beg them, please give us, some help, please, do your part in. And the more richer countries are just like, nah, bro, we're good.Like how fucked up is that? If you see someone on the street that is in need of help, in a dire situation and their life depends on it, you're going to help them. And so I feel like I'm not trying to do a broad stroke of that. We don't care for one another and we don't share love with people and all that hippy-dippy stuff.I'm just wondering, how do we bring that into these types of conversations with politicians, with corporations? At the end of the day, they're all humans too, right? [00:19:37] Sarah: It's actually less hippy-dippy than all of that. Like the example that you said, if you see somebody on the street who's suffering and you're going to want to help them in that scenario.I think implicit is that person is suffering. And that suffering is unrelated to you in any way. Like you don't know that person, you have no relationship with that person. They're a stranger. There, there are scenarios completely separate from yours, but just human to human peace, love happiness.You want to reach out and help them because you're human, they're human. And you share that we have a common struggle and all that stuff. That's the peace, love and happiness angle. But the truth of the matter is in this situation, that person that you see on the street, who's suffering is your like employee.And you have profited off of their hard work and misery and suffering for 50 years or something. And now they're at a point where they need a little bit of I don't know, they need a loan. They're coming to you for a loan to. Expand their whatever facilities or production capabilities or whatever it is to modernize their production because they're sitting there, with bare feet in the mud making, whatever it is that you, their employer has, mandated that they make.So there's actually between these countries the richer countries and the poor ones. There is a relationship there. They're not in their own little bubbles and they act as if, oh, you're struggling. That's on you, bro. I'm good. I'm gonna keep holding onto the money that I've made because I did it better than you did.And that's just the way the cookie crumbles. But no, the truth of the matter is. The countries that are poor, have been providing resources, minerals, a lot of these raw materials that have then been manufactured into goods and sold for a profit by the richer countries. Like this whole planet is connected and the economy is global.And so they're not operating in a bubble. They're not poor because they just didn't manage to do their thing. The richer countries are richer because they got a head start on industrializing their economies, and then they Put a system together in like Bretton woods and further world bank stuff where the countries that were ahead of the industrialization game made the rules and they made the rules such that everything benefited them and not the poorer countries that still need to catch up.And so it's seeing one of your employees who you've been profiting off of on the street struggling and asking you for an advance on their payday loan or whatever. And you're saying, no, that's on you, bro. But thanks for all the hard work.So I don't think it's as hippy-dippy as you you make it, it's actually pretty [00:22:56] Marc: nasty. I like that. Diving deeper into their relationship. It's that last part of that first sentence that really stood out it's the fact that they're going to be the ones being affected by the things that they're not for one didn't create and second that they are not prepared for.And for me, that is just, again, I just go back to, we also need to have the same conversations around yeah. How do we work with one another. How do we put ourselves in situations that we can empathize more and we can start to develop Yeah, more connections with people that don't look like us so that we understand where they're coming from.And we perhaps might be able to change how we view them and the rest of the world. And maybe if we get more people to snap out of this individualistic me, my tribe kind of thing. The faster we can really, address this stuff because those people could bring their specific professional skills to the conversation.Like maybe some of the delay zone that's happening is because those people just don't know how to connect to the stuff on a more personal level. And then once they do, then perhaps they can join the team. Does that make sense? Like maybe we have to start personal first before we expect them to share their skills and talents.And in this in this fight, Yeah, [00:24:18] Sarah: I think there's also a bit of the Malthusian element in all [00:24:23] Marc: of this[00:24:24] Sarah: and all this. This is the part that we put in our becoming a climate designer course. And when, basically when I see an environmentalist or a piece of climate communication saying poorer communities are going to have to deal with harsher effects from climate change, when they had much less like responsibility for creating the problem in the first case and the environmentalist or the piece of climate communication saying this means, wow, isn't that fair?In the spirit of fairness or. Our shared humanity and just like ethics and what's good and justice, we shouldn't allow that to happen. But when you look at it from a Malthusian theory, point of view, Malthus basically said, if you help the poor, you're just going to get more poor. And it's a moral failing.He was a Christian, Reverend, this was in the 1890s or whatever. And good old Christianity teaches us that. I dunno, somehow this, wasn't originally Christianity, but somehow it got twisted into something like this, where if you're poor it's because you've sinned and this is your moral punishment for your failings as a Christian or whatever which is, it's just awful. But basically what that means is if you empathize with somebody with a Malthusian point of view and you listened to that statement of the poor will feel the effects of climate change more than the rich, it sounds like more judgment being rained down upon you by God for your sins.And the the judgment of the rich is that they get to avoid some of those effects of climate change and everything is the way that it should be. And we don't need to change a thing. It is the exact opposite. Then how the environmentalist's or the climate communicators want people to take it. And so they hear that I think it's the same thing that happened during COVID.Everybody was like, oh my God, let's, deal with COVID until statistics started coming out that lower income communities and people of color were dying from COVID at higher rates than white people and affluent communities. And it was like the next week we saw Karen out on the street protesting against lockdown in America and people going to church and not masking and saying, I am protected by Jesus's blood or whatever.Like they literally thought they were immune because of. Religion or something because they were white. I just you have to try to empathize with this point of view, even though it's madness and realize that the communication that you're putting out there about oh, this is unjust. This is unfair is actually backfiring against certain people or in the minds of certain people.[00:27:40] Marc: And I think it also shows otherism. Yeah, in it's full form. [00:27:46] Sarah: That is absolutely other ism. And you know what? I still have some more research to do, but I saw something today that apparently the whole concept of race was invented by the Portuguese in the 14 hundreds to justify slavery. So like this stuff goes way back, [00:28:03] Marc: re we've talked about this.I don't want to get into it because it's a different topic, but there's a great documentary that I really need to rewatch. I saw this a few months ago and next time around, I'm going to sit and take notes. Exterminate all the brutes it's on HBO. I've told you to sign me, Sarah, just to get like a two week trial and just watch that.And we can watch other things too, but highly recommend everyone who's watching and listening to. If you have HBO max, or if you don't ,sign up for the free trial, highly recommend it. It's a, it's an amazing four-part documentary. Where Raoul Peck an amazing documentary filmmaker decades experience his latest documentary before this was, I'm not your Negro, which rave reviews.He basically goes on a quest to to go and seek out the root, the roots of racism on a global, at a global scale. I really do wish you all were able to yeah. See it and bring your thoughts and ideas to these these Twitch sessions. We'd love to hear them. I think we might be having some technical difficulties. Sarah, are you there? [00:29:10] Sarah: I'm here. Can you hear me? Can you see me? Oh, [00:29:14] Marc: okay. Your video is super slow. So I didn't know if you were trying to talk over me anyway. Yeah. So what were we talking about? Yeah the Portuguese comment that you made, Sarah, it's mentioned in that documentary and I think you're right.So it was basically made up to yeah. Create the idea that we are superior towards another, group of people that don't look like us. [00:29:37] Sarah: . One thing that I read that really struck me. I know that we're on a tangent right now, but bear with us because I think it's interesting. It was, talking about Columbus and he was an idiot, but he was what contracted by Spain, the king and queen of Spain to go and do his little thing.And his little voyage. And he landed in, I think The Bahamas and basically claimed that for Spain. So The Bahamas were then claimed as a Spanish colony and then he grabbed a bunch of indigenous people that he encountered, brought them back to the king and queen of Spain as a gift, as potential slaves, basically.And the queen of Spain clutched, her pearls or whatever, and said, these are Spanish citizens. This is disgusting. So since they had claimed The Bahamas as a colony of Spain, they no longer saw the people from that place as others. And so therefore could not be enslaved. It's just arbitrary, I don't know if the king and queen of Spain sign a deal with the king and queen of France or whatever.And now The Bahamas are not a colony of Spain. And so then they could be enslaved. I dunno, it's just, it just feels very arbitrary to me and ridiculous. Like people are, people just shut up [00:30:56] Marc: and very not to put this lightly. I know there's tons of history and unfortunately millions of people have died because of this idea, but it's also very made up.Yeah, exactly. And this goes to show that everything in life has been invented at some point in time in some form or another. And so this idea was invented, but even Hey, we should write up a draft an agreement and we both should sign it saying that these people should be, it's so if they just have the thought to make it up and do that, then we can have other things that we can make up and counter that to to invite.Yeah. I just, I go back to this often, everything in life is invented and if more and more people saw that and realize that I feel like it'll spark so many new thoughts and ideas and questions and visions of the future, because once people realize that everything that is around them, that laptop, the iPhone the idea of a job everything in life it's invented.If that's the case, then let's start imagining what's possible. Let's invent new things that, as I mentioned, just counter the old stuff. Yeah. I don't know, again, living in San Francisco, man, [00:32:09] Sarah: No, it's real. And I think it was Antoinette Carroll, who said everything that you see around you has been designed and that means that it can be redesigned.Same idea. Yeah. I want to share another thing if I may, did you have something on [00:32:23] Marc: that note though? No, I have a new topic that go ahead. [00:32:27] Sarah: I also came across this article in rolling stone. And it starts out. It's mostly about Obama's speech. People were talking a little bit about Obama's speech and it's pretty hard hitting and pretty real talk.So kudos to Jeff Goodell, whoever you are. I like what you did here. I see what you did here. And I like it. So if you go through this article, he's talking about president Obama arrived at the climate conference in Glasgow, like a spirit from another time he wore a black suit gray shirt, tie, as a crowd of star struck delegates, parted, like holy water around him.They all remembered the happy days with the Paris climate agreement in 2015, when he was the President and Donald Trump was just an orange haired has been reality TV star (he's orange skinned, by the way, yellow haired anyway). And there was for a brief moment, hope that humankind would take dramatic action on the crisis that was threatening the future of civilization.Seeing Obama walking up to the podium to give his speech was reminder of a better time, one delegate emailed me. So right here, there's he's setting up the dichotomy that I think. I don't know. I don't know if you're aware of, but I've been noticing where people who are like vote blue all the way and just like 100% Democrats.Yes. Love Obama, right? And of course Republicans hate him. But. People who are even further left than that, which confuses centrists and Republicans, because they think that the Democrat party line is the left, but environmental activists and the most of them were pretty excited about Obama when he was very first elected.And then he had the really difficult job of having to recover from the recession that he inherited and Chose Obamacare as his thing instead of climate. And, that was his legacy basically. He did take some good actions on climate, but he just didn't do what environmentalist were hoping for.And he's a really good speaker. He does really good talk. But for most of us, the actions just weren't there and we became very disillusioned on Obama and really like I've even seen some activists go to the point of when Obama gets involved. It's the whole thing is ruined because he does such a good job of putting a shiny bow on things with his talk and his words that people stop being impassioned about action, because they think that it's been taken care of because he's just that good at speaking, but not actually doing things. So anyway talks about the speech but the heart of his remarks were targeted at young climate activists. He urged them not to give up on politics. You don't have to like it, but you can't ignore it. He told them it was important to reach out to people who are skeptical about the urgency of the climate crisis. It will not be enough to simply mobilize the converted.It will not be enough to preach to the choir. He acknowledged the generational divide between himself and young activists. You were right to be frustrated folks in my generation have not done enough to deal with potential cataclysmic problem that you now stand to inherit. That's an understatement. I want you to stay angry. I want you to stay frustrated, blah, blah, blah. Gird yourself for a marathon, not a sprint.[00:35:39] Marc: Okay. A lot of what you were highlighting, some of his quotes is very much pointing the finger at the crowd is telling them to do this or like this and this. And when in reality, what really needs to happen is that he turns around and walks into these big corporate conference rooms and actually makes the people that are doing the work, destroying the planet making them change their ways.It's, that's a great example of someone who like what you said in, Obama. Sure. He sucked a lot less than a lot of other presidents, but he still had his at his shit. And it's just another example of politicians those. In and around and from DC, that just, it's all lip service, they deflect, they have the shiny object in their hand over there, so we can all look at it while on the other side of them, behind them.The work is still being done. [00:36:34] Sarah: Yeah. So I really liked this part. We're now in the post speech era of the climate crisis, where words don't matter to the people who matter. You don't want to words anymore. I actually want you to do shit. [00:36:48] Marc: Did you see Greta Thunberg'sspeech? [00:36:52] Sarah: No, but he does go into that here as well. Do you have a link to it? Is it on video somewhere? We can show it. So then he quotes some, activists about what they thought of his speech. I thought president Obama's speech was out of date, to be honest. This was the speech Obama should have given back at cop 15 in Copenhagen in 2009, a dozen years later. So back to what we were saying at the beginning, like seriously at 26 years of this shit it's too late to be vague about why we're failing.Yeah.[00:37:22] Marc: Yeah. I will say I'm interacting with a lot of millennials or no, not millennials. What are they? Zoomers zoom people. Gen Z gen Z. Hold on[00:37:33] Sarah: yeah. So this activist executive director of the sunrise movement, listening to Obama speech, I was reminded of all the broken promises made by leaders in America concerning the climate crisis.Young and marginalized communities have been betrayed again and again by leaders failing to meet the moment that we're in a climate crisis that is destroying our homes, communities, and futures. This is real like the material conditions that are happening are real. We don't need words to say that we're working on it.We don't need anyone to tell us this is a marathon, not a sprint. We need real material conditions to change. [00:38:09] Marc: Yeah. And I was just going to say, the. Young kids, they can smell bullshit a mile away. Yeah. They can call out people. They have no problem calling out people, they demand transparency.They demand authenticity. They demand people be real and authentic. And if you're not man, they can, they're like a shark when they, get a scent of blood a mile away, [00:38:32] Sarah: cause we've all been bullshitted for 20 years. I love this one just before Obama took the stage Dominca Lasota, a 19 year old Polish activists tweeted a picture of activists holding up signs that said, show us the money. Lasota wrote nice words about the climate crisis without action mean nothing. $100 billion for climate finance is still missing. Show us the money, not empty climate concern, so that persons 19, and they are very aware of what actually needs to be done.They're making real legitimate demands. Yeah, it's it's a much different story than the save the planet activists of the seventies. You know what I mean? [00:39:16] Marc: Very different. I do have that clip of Gretta pulled up. If you want to pause real quick and do that. Let's do it. I won't play the whole thing, but you'll get the gist[00:39:26] Sarah: politically. Correct. Green act, bunny hugging or blah, blah, blah. Build back better. Blah, blah, blah. Green economy. Blah-blah-blah net zero by 2050, blah, blah, blah.net zero by 2050, blah, blah, blah, net zero. Blah-blah-blah climate neutral. Blah-blah-blahthis is all we hear from our leaders. Words. That sound great, but so far has led to no action, our hopes and dreams drown in their empty words. Of course, we need constructive dialogue, but they've now had 30 years of blah-blah-blah and where has that led us? But of course we can still turn this around.It is entirely possible. It will take drastic annual emission cuts, unlike anything the world has ever seen. And as we don't have the technological solutions that alone can deliver anything close to that means we will have to change. We can no longer let the people in power decide what is politically possible or not.We can no longer let the people in power decide what hope is. Hope is not passive hope is not a blah-blah-blah hope is telling the truth. Hope is taking action and hope always comes from the people. Wasn't that kind of Obama's message. When he first ran for election was, hope and that coming from the people. Yeah. Yeah. What happened [00:40:55] Marc: to that guy? The person in the rolling stone article said, it sounded as if Obama should've made the speech back in 2009, soone, one last thing I'll bring up before we close out another little tidbit from cop 26. I don't know if you've seen this Sarah more than 500 lobbyists from over 100 fossil fuel companies are in Glasgow.Okay, your video's delayed. So I can't see if that was a sarcastic face or not. There are more obvious, there are more fossil fuel lobbyists at cup 26. Then there are delegates from Puerto Rico, Myanmar Haiti and the Philippines, Mozambique, The Bahamas, Bangladesh and Pakistan combined, and more than double the official indigenous consultancy that consultancy.See that isn't that crazy? That is wild. And last time we chatted, last time we did this, we talked about trust. [00:41:49] Sarah: Like it definitely shows who these negotiations are for. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit more quoting from the rolling stone article. That's I think related to what you're talking about. To activists in the streets what's happening in the conference center is theater. Many are asking what it'll take for people in power to wake up Gretta set an SBH, but let's be clear.They're already awake. They know exactly what they're doing. They know exactly what priceless values they're sacrificing to maintain business. As usual timber pointed out that the fossil fuel industry delegation at the Glasgow conference was bigger than the delegation of any single nation she tweeted.I don't know about you, but I sure am not comfortable with having some of the world's biggest villains influencing and dictating the fate of the world. And then it says other activists were even more cutting inside that conference of polluters. The climate criminals are hiding behind barbed wire and fences and lines of police.We're not going to accept their suicide pact. So I find that really, yeah, cutting and really telling, it's supposed to be the conference of the parties where like everybody negotiates, who's a party to this thing, but it's now being known among the activists as the conference of polluters. It's a conference of climate criminals. [00:43:21] Marc: Conference of the puppets. [00:43:23] Sarah: Yeah. Their suicide pact. And most of them, the generational divide and the age divide is really obvious where most of the people who are inside cop 26 are in their sixties.And most of the people outside marching are, like average age, 20 years old. Yeah. [00:43:43] Marc: Yeah. They're going down in a blaze of glory, they're not going to be around to see the devastation. So they're getting. Yeah they're just gonna coast until their time is up and, just say, fuck it.Sorry, fam. Yeah. [00:43:57] Sarah: So I'm no longer hanging my hopes on anything really beneficial coming from cop 26. [00:44:03] Marc: And I was talking to someone the other day about cop and, I've always said this and I've always had this train of thought even before the climate space, but I've never held my breath for anything coming out of DC or any other state Capitol, or I don't put all my eggs in that one basket.And I think there's at least in the U S a very long track record. If you do the research that shows you why you should think the same, because. Politicians are in bed with corporations. And when it's in spaces like this, where they're literally affecting the atmosphere of our planet to while extracting resources, to put more profit into their bank accounts, and they know that they're doing that, it's just crazy.And then they have the puppets who are elected, who should be working for us, but not really. They have those puppets pulling the levers and writing the policy and doing their little squiggly stuff around all these slimy other politicians to get their take on or to get theirs, they're just working for them.And so I think we really need to, this goes back to my earlier comment. I think we really need to focus on, communities and more at the local level, not to say that our local, that bumper sticker back in the day, think global act local. Yup. Yeah. Like I remember when I saw that as a kid, as a teenager, I was like, huh, that's interesting.And I never really got it until much later in life. And I was like I understood the power of that mindset of really having a worldview, doing what you can for the people around you, because if everyone thought that way and did that, then we can really talk about massive positive change.And so I really do feel like we need to work on us as individuals. We need to start understanding one another and seeing people for who they really are outside of their skin, color, political beliefs, whatever. Like we really got to get on that level because that's how change actually happens. Like we talk about drafts and agreements and deals and policies, whatever, but people.Human beings on the, or on the other end of that. And yeah, I don't know. I just, we need to focus on the world around us and if we can get more people to buy into that and show them their place in that future world, I think we really do have a shot. Of course we'd still need government too.So that's the thing, like as much as I want to put energy and focus on us to, to inspire people to, March up the streets and bang their fists on the doors of these large corporations that are polluting the planet. We also still at the same time do in fact need governments to contribute in some way they don't have to do all of it.And I don't think they should, but I really do think that we can't do this without them. So how do we do both? How do we do that while at the same, also at the same time really. Change the makeup of those people that would be attending COP that should actually be attending COP. [00:47:04] Sarah: Yeah, I think, the way that I would answer that and it's a non-answer, but it's something along the lines of building.Building not building back better, but like building better infrastructure wherever we are. And what I mean by that is maybe looking at our local community and I don't know, encouraging community gardening or growing food for each other, finding ways to distribute money or food or needs to your neighbors.You know what I mean? Finding some way to start building some kind of infrastructure in your local community, because relying on the government to take care of us is just not where it's at anymore. And whether that's volunteering for food, not bombs or, even meals on wheels. I don't know something, but like looking out for each other and. Building co-ops and building communities and designing systems where we have power as a group, as a community, instead of just staying with the status quo, like to me, it's just whatever you create, wherever you go to work, whatever you work for, make sure that it's building. Something that shifts the power from me and my family to us and our community.[00:48:19] Marc: And I'm really glad that you've used that, the food example in that, I think, on a more practical level, look at just what we're experiencing with our global supply chain, look at what's going to happen when wildfires destroyed parts of the interstate or flooding or whatever.We're really whether we like it or not, we really are going to need to do that just because, we can't rely on these, semi-trucks deliver our food, halfway or all the way across the country. Like we, we need to be at that local level because it's, shit's gonna hit the fan and we really do need to rely on each other.If we were. To survive. [00:48:54] Sarah: Yep. I think it's time to start moving into, we live in a failed state mode. And if you start, preparing for that now and getting ahead, When the shit hits the fan, as you say we have the things in place. We know where to go in case of emergency. If we need food or we need firewood to keep ourselves warm, or if we need to get out an emergency message or, think about all the stuff that the preppers, my God, I can't believe I'm saying this.Like it has been saying for years and start doing some of that stuff, start stockpiling and stop relying on the government to take care of us because they just can't respond quickly enough to the crises that are going to start happening. And when they do start happening, the government will start enacting change, but it's just going to be too slow and it's not going to save us.It's going to be reactionary instead of proactive. And so I think we all need to get proactive and start taking care of each other and start building things that work. And then when you build things that work, sometimes the government looks at that and says, oh, let's just use that and start putting money towards it.[00:50:06] Marc: Sometimes that works. Yeah. It's it's learning how to be resilient while we learn to adapt, like it's cause we're going to have to adapt, even if everything at COP happens tomorrow, all the positive things that everyone hopes for, we're still decades out.We're not going to see the effects of all the awesomeness for a good while. Yeah. [00:50:28] Sarah: It's all so much just talk and urges. And I don't know vows, there's nothing like real in it. [00:50:35] Marc: So adapting to what's to come, I think is going to be key, which is also not really part of this conversation. Yes, there's climate adaptation, books and organizations, videos, and articles and all that stuff.I definitely read them, but it's looked down upon because of people don't want to admit that they're going to be walking into this mess. I think it's, of course we all want to hope for solving it, but again, that's going to take time. So there's that like limbo state, right?There's that awkward period that we no doubt will enter and for, and we don't know how long and sooner we're in it. Yes. [00:51:09] Sarah: Yes. Like I was like I said, at the beginning, I was hinting that declaration on what comes out of cop 26. Cause this is the moment where we need like really big action and I don't see that happen.[00:51:20] Marc: Yeah. Everyone was saying that this is the time and this is the cop. If it's not this just not going [00:51:25] Sarah: to happen, like it's going to be lagging behind, is what I don't think, I don't think literally nothing is going to happen, but it's not going to happen fast enough. So we need to look out for each other now.Yeah. So I'm, mentally shifting into more of that adaptation mode, more of that build the better world on our own from the grassroots up mode, instead of demanding, like I think we still need to demand from the government, what we want from them. And we need to be very clear about what that is.I'm still very annoyed at activists who just demand climate action. I would rather, they start putting together real action plans and say, do this and this. Or we demand this, and get very specific But yeah, I think we really need to focus on taking care of each other and taking care of our basic needs.And trying to build systems mutual aid ways that we can make sure that the most, especially the most marginalized people, who are thought of as disposable by the people in power, we need to start looking out for them. So if you happen to be white, like me or white presenting, like Marc notice that is a place of privilege and use that privilege to stand up for and protect people who are marginalized and thought of as disposable by our politicians and who think that, their lives don't matter.Like it's awful. And if they're not going to do it, somebody has to we have to take care of each other.[00:53:00] Marc: Yeah, I really want to build a campfire right now and get some people together and sing kumbaya.[00:53:07] Sarah: Ah, I think that's a note to leave it on. I don't know if it's a good note, but it's a note [00:53:12] Marc: singing kumbaya. The younger listeners even know [00:53:16] Sarah: what that mean because gen Z have kumbaya. Do they have a gen Z version of kumbaya? What's that? I [00:53:21] Marc: don't even know. I love to know that [00:53:23] Sarah: gen Z listeners, please let us know what does kumbaya mean to you.If anything, [00:53:28] Marc: I'll have to ask my students, what is [00:53:31] Sarah: the gen Z equivalent of kumbaya? [00:53:34] Marc: Love it. Maybe that's our homework. Maybe we look it up [00:53:38] Sarah: so much to learn so much. All right. Thanks for hanging out, Marc. This has been real as always. All right. Talk to you later. Bye. Bye.

My name is Sarah Chapman. I’ve been married for almost 20 years to my husband, Trent, together we have 5 children and live in Lehi, Utah. I am an author of two books, “MindStrength for Women” and “Underneath it all.....You’re Naked” Both of these books were written after a very hard period of time in life. One was about my physical journey to coming back to myself and the other is my sexuality journey of overcoming my judgment about sex to becoming more curious. I went about teaching women about sexual health for 2 years and mainly surrounding the female sexual response cycle. I taught women that you can’t find freedom in your understanding of your sexuality until you have overcome the deep rooted beliefs about sex. I found my own freedom from it that is why I wrote a book about it. Now my focus is on creating a community of women where we come together weekly to share the physical, mental and sexual aspects of our lives and have meaningful discussions with a workbook followed by an exercise class. Because movement creates emotion. You can find me: Instagram : @mindstrength.for.women MindStrength for Women Facebook Group Email: sarah@mindstrengthmentor.com   Full Transcript:  00:00 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married, Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy, Daniel is a Marriage and Family Therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.   [music]   00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. On today’s episode we have Sarah Chapman, who is an author; and we’re excited to review her book with her today and kinda learn her journey to getting to this book. Sarah, welcome to the show.   00:44 Sarah: Thank you for having me, Daniel. I appreciate this, it’s really exciting.   00:48 Daniel: I’m very excited. As someone who’s writing a book, I also 1) kinda selfishly learn your journey, (mine’s been a very difficult one). And, so I may get a little selfish in my inquiries here--but more importantly, I’m curious to hear more about you. Who are you as a wife, as a person, as a mother? Tell us a little about yourself and what got you to this point.   01:12 Sarah: Sure, love to. So, I (we), Trent and I, my husband and I, will be going on 19 years of marriage this September. I have 5 children, I currently live in Utah. We lived in California for a time, actually, in San Diego area actually. Miss that place, for sure. But, yeah, I first basically grew up in an LDS home and I grew up in a family with 8 children, and I’m 6th of the 8. [...] In our home we didn’t talk about anything remotely close to our bodies. We were very surface type of family. We didn’t really talk about hard things. I wouldn’t say that we were an authentic family. But, at the same time, I did feel loved by my parents and I felt that they were providing me with a really great education, secularly as well as spiritually. And so, I didn’t feel like I was necessarily neglected in the way I was thinking.    02:29 Sarah: However, growing up as a teenager in the 90s, I’d run around with some friends who were sexually active and seeing the naive young teenager that I was, I kinda looked at them and viewed them as people who were naughty girls, right? And so, I remember church lessons here and there. It wasn’t very often, but I do remember those specific metaphors that were shared. I actually did get the “chewed up piece of gum” kind of analogy, which maybe a lot of your audience here might have gotten.   03:10 Daniel: Oh…(sarcastically) excellent. Yeah.   03:13 Sarah: You know? And then I also just really created a lot of...I would just look at the word sex and just immediately think that it was just this dirty thing. However, there was also this other part of me that was being told that it was this sacred thing, and you don’t talk about it, right? And so I was just kinda like this....back and forth in my head about like, “what is this?” Sure, I had boyfriends in high school and I do remember getting close a couple times where I feel like my body was in a state of arousal. Obviously I didn’t know what it was, because I didn’t know my body then. But looking back, I’m like, “Oh, that’s what that tingling sensation was when I was getting close to that boy, oh! Okay, right.”    04:06 Sarah: I can say that now, but at the time, as a teenager, I didn’t at all. And I never (like when I would shower and stuff), like I would just hurry and shower really quick and then get out. I never wanted to self-pleasure or anything, at all. I didn’t even know my body. And so, come the time of marriage, the night before I’m to be married, my mom thinks it’s a great time to talk about sex. She pulls me aside and she basically asked me, “You’re gonna have sex tomorrow night, right?” and I was like, “well, I guess…”. I mean, I kinda remember my teenage years back in high school telling me that a penis goes inside a vagina, but then I was like...I plugged my ears like “I don’t wanna hear this, I don’t wanna hear this!” I just kinda ignored what they were gonna tell me. I knew just that fact: that a penis goes into a vagina and that was it. My mom was like, “Well, here’s a book. Go ahead and read this book.” And it was the book from...is it called, Between Husband and Wife by Lamb? Dr. Lamb?   05:14 Daniel: Oh yeah, oh yeah. 05:15 Sarah: Yeah, it was that book. And I was like, “Mom, I don’t have time to read this book.” And she’s like, “Well, you’ll eventually refer back to it.” And that was it. That was my sex talk from my mom. I was just basically thrown into the fire the night of my wedding. It was very traumatic. Very long, exhausting night as any honeymooners would imagine, who had never had sex before, trying to figure things out, trying to figure out our bodies. Anyways, it was just a mess. And I called my mom the next day, just in tears, like, “I just got married and this just happened to me.” I didn’t go into detail with her because we don’t...we don’t talk about details or anything like that. But I really wanted to, like, it was like this cry for help. Like, “why didn’t you tell me these things? Why didn’t you help me to understand how my body works in this way? That it’s supposed to be designed for this?” Anyway. That’s just kinda the cycle that happened for I’d say the first 16 years of my marriage. That was the only thing we really fought about in our marriage, was sex. It wasn’t money or anything, it was always about sex.   06:42 Daniel: You mean, the issues were always about sex? 06:45 Sarah: The issues, yeah. 06:46 Daniel: Okay. 06:47 Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. The issues around sex. He would always try to approach me and help to try to fix me, right? Because of course he wanted a decent experience, too. But, at the same time, I was looking at him like, “Oh...this is all you want. You just want my body.” And that was it. I viewed myself as this tool for him.   07:09 Daniel: So let me pause you right there. What you just stated was big! It was huge. So, you viewed yourself as a tool for him to get satisfied, is that what you’re saying? 07:22 Sarah: Exactly, yeah.   07:24 Daniel: And that was because of…   07:25 Sarah: You know, because I never...I never wanted to receive that pleasure for myself. Because I once again thought it was like...I thought I was a bad girl if I did that, right? So, even when I did have an orgasm, I’d immediately feel guilty every single time afterwards because of this shame that I’d created in my head about me having pleasure. So then, I viewed him as, “oh, he’s just using my body, and sex is for him, and orgasm is something that he just needs all the time.” 08:03 Daniel: I wanna explore that a little bit, if you’re okay with it. I know you bring it up in indirect ways, in fact, in your book Underneath it All... and I apologize to the audience, I didn’t mention the name of your book, Underneath it All...You’re Naked. I love that title by the way, I think it’s excellent.   08:18 Sarah: Thank you   08:19 Daniel: And your subtitle is “shedding light on misconceptions about sex from a Christian wife to Christian women.” But what you said right there was, you couldn’t allow yourself to experience pleasure. If you’re okay with that, let’s explore that a little bit more. You’re not the first to say this on my podcast and I hear it a lot from clients. What did it mean to you to experience pleasure? You’re married now, you knew clearly beforehand that (or, atleast, your value system says that) before marriage, I’m not gonna experience this. You’re saying: you jump in the shower, you get out as fast as you can because you didn’t want to self-stimulate or do anything wrong.   08:56 Sarah: Yep   08:57 Daniel: So now you’re married. What was the barrier for you in allowing yourself to experience that joy?   09:08 Sarah: Well, I think you’re basically asking what kinda shifted that focus for me? 09:16 Daniel: Well, what continued? A lot of men will get into relationships, they know they’re not supposed to pleasure before marriage but now they’re in marriage and they’re willing to let it all go--kinda the dynamic you just explained with you and your husband.   09:28 Sarah: Yeah.   09:29 Daniel: But, what prevented you, I guess...maybe, is it a shift? I guess that’s the question I’m asking you is, is it a shift? Or, it seemed more like though, you carried this perspective: “I’m not allowed to have sexual pleasure even in marriage.” Which seems incongruent with the thoughts and beliefs you had before marriage. What was the barrier to...I mean, you saw your husband having pleasure, did that peak your interest and say, “How can I have that pleasure?” or was it this continued, “I can’t have this. It’s too shameful, it’s too hurtful.” 10:04 Sarah: No, it was definitely too hurtful to me. I would just, lay there. I always like to say I’d lay there like a dead fish, maybe you’ve heard that term before. I would just allow him to just do whatever he wanted to my body. You know? And I was really good at faking orgasm. It was definitely something just to get him off me as soon as I could, right? Because I just felt dirty the whole time, when he was on me. It’s amazing how much conditioning that I had created in my head, and this belief that really ate away at my soul. To know that this shame enveloped my whole body and created a wedge in my marriage to where I looked at him as somebody that just used me. You know?    11:10 Daniel: So, I’m really curious. What took you from that experience to what you say on page 56? It’s this idea of being able to embrace very differently. Practice patience, self-compassion, and have a sense of humor about it. That seems like a complete 180 shift.    11:29 Sarah: Yeah. 11:30 Daniel: What was the journey you had from what you’re experiencing, that “pleasure is painful and icky” to this wonderful perspective of even having a sense of humor about it? What led you there?   11:41 Sarah: Well, not an overnight thing. I’ll just say that right now. [laughs] It definitely was, you know, I had this moment--this wake-up call. Sixteen years in, I was fed up. Basically telling myself over and over and over, “Sarah why can’t you figure this out? Why is this so hard for you? Why can’t you just get over this? Why do you look at sex in this perspective?” Just this why, why why. I finally had this moment of surrender. I didn’t talk to anybody, Daniel. I suffered in silence for years. I didn’t talk to my sisters, definitely not my mom, right? Not even my girlfriends, nobody. 12:30 Daniel: That’s what we’re taught. We’re taught to not even talk to our loved one’s about it, even our spouse.   12:34 Sarah: Exactly, exactly. And of course, then Trent would ask, my husband would ask me, “what is it you want?” And I’m like, “well, I don’t know what i want.” I’ve never allowed myself to have conversations and talk about it. He would just ask me question after question to open my mind and see the possibility and then I’d shut him down all the time, right? It was just this constant battle. So finally, it was just this one day, I called Suzanne, right? I refer to her in my book a lot. She was this woman who I met randomly in Guatemala of all places. I just look back and I’m like, it was by divine design that I would meet her that summer of 2017 so that she could open my eyes.   13:20 Daniel: I actually love what you said about Suzanne, is that she started her journey because of romance novels. I like that.   13:29 Sarah: Yeah. I’m not a big romance novel kind of girl but you know, some people are. Anyway we got to talking. We literally...our airbnbs were literally across from each other. I didn’t know Spanish, she didn’t know Spanish, it was a Sunday afternoon, we had nothing else to do--so we got to know each other. And we literally...like, she just opened up to me. We talked about our sex lives, and this ws the very first time I was like, this is a really fun conversation! It was the first time I actually looked at it with clear eyes to see the potential in me and the hope. Because she had already kinda gone through her own little journey, because she was basically me. She gave me hope to look at it with a different set of eyes. I went from a place of--this is where I talk a lot about, in my book--this view of going from a judgement place to being more curious. She allowed me, she gave me permission. It’s interesting how as women, we need permission, you know? 14:44 Daniel: What I’m curious though, is, what was it about Suzanne that allowed you to open up? you have been fighting this for so many years.   14:52 Sarah: Yeah.   14:53 Daniel: What prevented you from putting up another barrier? “Nope, I’m not talking about that, that’s betraying my husband, that’s betraying myself…”   14:57 Sarah: That’s true.   14:58 Daniel: What was it about her that allowed you to open up?    15:03 Sarah: Good question.   15:04 Daniel: I think that’s the biggest thing with women is finding that opportunity and how, because they get into this same place where “I can’t talk about this and I won’t talk about it and I don’t care how familiar I am with you”--so what was it about her>   15:15 Sarah: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I had been studying and learning about...I love Brené Brown, and at that point in my life I’d really been learning vulnerability and authenticity. When she just started talking to me and exposing herself to me, I was .... she gave me permission to therefore share my things, right? There’s power when you can start a conversation and be like, “I’m messed up.” You know? “Here’s all these parts of me that I don’t understand, can you help me kinda walk through this?”    15:53 Sarah: And that’s what she was for me, you know? And I think that’s what really created that safe place for me. She was like my safe place, because we could relate on so many levels, right? And I think when there’s vulnerability and authenticity in any friendship or relationship, there’s definitely power behind that--to be able to know, “hey, I’m not alone. We can do this together.” And I feel like that’s kinda what I’ve been doing now...you know, here’s my mess and I’m creating it into a message and helping other women to understand “you’re not alone. You’re not broken. There’s hope for you.” And I think that’s what's beautiful about this. And that’s what made that shift for me, is to allow myself to just open up, receive the information from this trusted (well, quick-trusted friend, right? I’d just met her) and just share all of me with her. It was quite an experience, that was for sure.   17:00 Daniel: So it sounds like Brené Brown gave you that courage,    17:04 Sarah: Yeah, exactly.   17:04 Daniel: that platform, or, not platform, kinda that foundation that it’s okay to be vulnerable here. But what I think is important for the audience to be aware of is, you’re still really new in your journey. This was very recently. So, you went to, on that trip back in, if I remember right, 2017? 17:20 Sarah: 2017, yeah. 17:21 Daniel: So you’re only like, three years into this. 17:25 Sarah: Yeah. 17:25 Daniel: That is phenomenal! You cranked out a book in sharing your journey. That’s...   17:31 Sarah: Yeah. 17:32 Daniel: So, emotionally, what is that like for you right now? So, kinda step away from the book and this narrative. You really are, in the context of people who are learning themselves, you’re really at the beginning of this journey. So, emotionally, what are you going through right now?   17:52 Sarah: Emotionally, I mean, you know what? I started it...I just consumed as much information as I could. I finally got to this place where I could..   18:06 Daniel: Do you feel like you’re a lot more confident? Or do you feel like you still have a lot of insecurities or vulnerabilities around it? Where do you feel like you’re at? 18:15 Sarah: I totally feel confident in my sexuality now, and that I can say that--I wouldn’t say 100%, for sure--I’m still learning and growing and I think that’s what’s great about understanding your sexuality because it’s going to always evolve and change because there’s just more things we’re gonna find out about ourselves. But, oh man, just to think about where I’ve...even just two years ago...to where I am now, and being able to have emotional connection with my husband, and him understanding how me, as a woman, how I work. And, you know, he takes the time to emotionally connect with me before even getting into the bedroom, you know? And understanding how my body needs to go through this sexual response cycle, which, I talk about that in my book. There’s a lot of therapists out there that talk about the different sexual response cycles that we go through, right? 19:20 Daniel: Exactly. 19:21 Sarah: And just, understanding that.   19:22 Daniel: So you gave yourself permission to get here so that you can help your husband understand your body because in the past, you know, he’s asking what you want, and as you said, you’re there as a dead fish. Just, finish it out. 19:33Sarah: Yeah. 19:34 Daniel: That, I think, is critical. Like I posted in our Improving Intimacy group today this idea of, especially with women, “okay, I’ve given myself permission, now it’s scary.” Was it scary to give yourself permission? Were you afraid of what you discovered? 19:50 Sarah: Oh, yeah! Yeah. So, of course, we’re going to have those fears. It’s part of our human nature, especially when we’ve created so much judgement and shame around it. There’s going to be fear that comes up. And there’s definitely going to be things that we might come across we don’t quite understand, or we definitely judge really quickly, right?    20:18 Sarah: Masturbation being one of them for me. That was a huge, like...I didn’t want to enter that specific subject until I felt comfortable in my body first, and learning the anatomy of my body first, before I could venture into that. So I feel like it’s a series of stepping stones. You kinda have to evolve into and work into. As I started reading all these books, that’s kind of what happened after I met with Suzanne, she gave me a couple books to read--and from there, I just took off. I was like, thirsting for knowledge for the first time in sex. Once I’d read one book, I went to the next book, and then I went to the next book. Just reading so much content that I could get my hands on. It was this, like, basically cry for help and just learning on my couch from all different kinds of therapists and sex experts and human sexuality professors and so many things, and I just was like, “oh my gosh! I’m finally in a place where I can receive this!” And yes, there’s gonna be content out there, once again, that we just kinda have to like, pick and choose, I don’t know, what resonates with you? 21:39 Daniel: I think that’s...I wanna ask you about that.    21:43 Sarah: Sure.   21:44 Daniel: But before I do, I really appreciate you addressing, briefly, in your book, about masturbation. You give a context for it, the history behind it, the fears around it. 21:51 Sarah: Yeah. 21:52 Daniel: What was that journey for you? You’re addressing that fear, you’re realizing, “okay, I need to understand myself.” Some wives feel like, “okay, I do need to figure out my body, but I will not do it without my husband present.    22:05 Sarah: Yeah.    22:06 Daniel: What was it like for you? Did you find that it was more valuable to do it alone so that you could do it without pressure? Or was it important for you to explore that with your spouse? 22:15 Sarah: So, in the beginning, I chose to explore with my husband. And it’s still a work in progress, Daniel [laughs], it’s still kinda like...I’m not fully 100% like going off by myself all the time, you know what I mean? But at the same time, like, it’s kinda going back to this stepping stone thing. I start with my husband to understand, and know, and feel comfortable, and then [...] it’s still just something that I know, I KNOW--that’s the crazy part, I KNOW--that it’s beneficial for me to know what feels good and what doesn’t, you know?    22:56 Daniel: Absolutely.   22:57 Sarah: But then, the shame just creeps in. And I remember this one specific time, I was like, “okay, Sarah.” I was seriously coaching myself! “Okay, Sarah, we can do this. We can do this!” You know? 23:11 Daniel: And you’re talking about when you’re masturbating, you’re trying to... 23:14 Sarah: Yeah!   23:14 Daniel: ...to get into the headspace.   23:15 Sarah: Like, I’ll go and I’ll coach myself and like, I’ll breathe and everything. A really great book, Slow Sex, was really powerful for me, by the way. 23:24 Daniel: Okay, excellent. Excellent book.   23:25 Sarah: Just the breathing, and… yeah.   23:26 Daniel: I think a lot of...so, we’re speaking to an LDS audience or a Christian-based audience. Sometimes, that book isn’t received very well. She talks about a lot of--   23:37 Sarah: Yeah   23:38 Daniel: So, the audience--it’s an excellent book. Excellent book. It does venture into some concepts and ideas that I think are extremely helpful, but be aware, it is not a warning, but just be aware--you're not going out and getting, you know, an LDS book about how to understand your own sexuality. It’s a very raw and in-depth book. Excellent.   24:00 Sarah: Yeah. 24:01 Daniel: So, I think that’s, so that kinda leads me into my second question, or where we left off before I asked this question. There’s so many resources out there. Often, when people try to explore this route, they stay, you know they kind of follow that insecurity be staying on a very safe path of resources. I don’t wanna name any books, I don’t want anybody to feel like they’re being judged around it, but--   24:27 Sarah: Sure.   24:28 Daniel: How did you, for example, Emily Nagoski, that’s not an LDS author. How did you determine which books were good for you? Whether it’s Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, or Natasha [breaks off]   24:39 Sarah: Uh huh.   24:40 Daniel: What was your internal compass to decide, “this is helpful, this is good in my pursuit of my own sexuality, but being within the framework of my faith?” 24:51 Sarah: Sure. The thing is, when you go on Amazon, there’s going to be all kinds of reviews from all over, right? Of course I would read the reviews, that’s what most people do when they go searching for a book. but also, of course, having my friend Suzanne of course had already read a few. So I kinda had an understanding... 25:14 Daniel: [laughs]   25:15 Sarah: ...from some of the things, right? so then there’s also...I did go and actually look them up, not just about their book but just them as a person. I did some research on who they are and like, what are they teaching, what are they, like, out there, like, what’s their message, kind of thing. And so then I felt more comfortable to kinda open up and seek. And of course, I’d go to my city library, right? And go to the sexuality section and I’d just camp out and just kinda peruse books that way. That’s also helpful ‘cause it’s free. It’s not like I’m going to buy a book. But, there’s so many [pauses] there’s amazing people out there doing amazing things, and I just…   26:09 Daniel: So I guess, let me push a little on this, is--for example, with Slow Sex, what kept you from reading that and saying, “whoa. This is way outside of my value system.” 26:17 Sarah: [laughs]   26:18 Daniel: “I shouldn’t be reading this.” And we’re talking about, just three years ago, you’re Sarah who’s just now recognizing all the rigidity around your sexual understanding and lack of understanding with your sexuality.   26:31 Sarah: Yeah.   26:32 Daniel: What kept you from throwing that book aside and saying, “this is horrible”?   26:39 Sarah: Well, I know this sounds really simple, but what I kept coming back to all the time, Daniel, was “Sarah, quit judging it. Be more curious.” 26:50 Daniel: Not simple at all. That is beautiful.   26:54 Sarah: You know, that’s it. That’s all...and that’s what I had to tell myself all the time. “Sarah, you’re looking at oral sex and you’re judging it. How can I be more curious about how it can apply to me and my relationship in my intimate relationship with my husband?” Like, what does that look like, you know? And so [laughs] it really is simple. But it is so profound to me, and it’s carried me the last three years. And that’s why I really hone-in on it in my book. Waking up women to understand, “quit judging it so much,”   27:34 Daniel: Absolutely love it.   27:34 Sarah: “and look at it from a place of curiosity.”   27:35 Daniel: And I think you see that journey as you go through this, like, starting in...what chapter is this? Page 100 or so. You start talking about loving yourself from the inside out. And you do a full inventory: “what do I lack? What am I insecure about?” (I’m putting some of my own words to this, but…) you take the individual through this process and I think that’s key. absolutely key. So, yes, the answer is simple, but boy, the process can be painful. That’s something that I actually warn my clients when I do this similar type of self-inventory. I have them often review themselves: where did they start--I like the word you used, stop judging it, and just learn from it. And I have people start to do this, is “stop judging your body, in fact, look at yourself. You think you have a fat tummy, who told you that? Who defined that for you?”   28:28 Sarah: Exactly.   28:29 Daniel: “Who took away your agency to keep you from actually looking at yourself in the way you should? Who defined it?” And they’ll go through this emotional process, “oh my goodness, that first boy I dated, he made fun of me or he poked me in the tummy and ever since then, I’ve been insecure. I’m not gonna let that dude take away from my agency. I’m gonna choose how to view my body.” And you kinda do a similar thing here.   28:53 Sarah: Yeah. 28:54 Daniel: Tell us a little more about that.   28:55 Sarah: Yeah, so, this is actually my second book. [laughs] I wrote a book 5 years ago called, MindStrength for Women. And it was all about just loving ourselves and overcoming this idea that we’re not enough and we're not good enough, not smart enough, and all these things, right? Of course I, at that time, I did like, I’d learned a lot about myself. And so the crazy part to all that whole story was, I felt amazing and went through a physical change, emotional change, and all these other things, but I kept sex hidden up in the corner, you know? Like in this closet, you know? So when I actually brought sex in, into the light, right? Now I felt like I’d become this whole person, and then like, a wholly unique being.    29:54 Sarah: And I talk about this term called “sexy confidence” in my book, and how as women, it’s not so much about our body or anything of that nature. It’s about, how do we walk into a room, and how do we make people feel? What kind of energy are we bringing into the room? Is this a loving environment? And this is where I kinda had to do this with my husband, too. Because, when you’re in the bedroom, as women, we start to...like, if we even put on a piece of lingerie or something, we start to immediately judge our body that it’s not looking so amazing.    30:35 Sarah: And I talk about, when I’m with women and stuff, I talk about this idea of like, you know, there’s this...we as women get into serious judgement, but when we can come from learning to love ourselves from the way God sees us (because obviously that’s important), that we can be able to be at one with our husbands, even. And not focus so much on the belly fat that’s hanging out when we’re trying to get on top of him, you know? And just like, how we can emotionally connect instead of looking at our bodies and judging every nook and cranny that we don’t like, kind of thing.   31:25 Daniel: Love that.  Now, you jumped into something later on, about how women need novelty. I thought this was interesting. I believe it. I’m one who likes to shatter myths out there. But the prevailing thought is, men need novelty. Women want consistency. Tell me more about this.    31:45 Sarah: Yeah. 31:46 Daniel: I think this is fascinating. I don't think anybody else is addressing it, and I’ve read a lot of books, so tell me a little about your discovery there.   31:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, I think [...] I do believe women, we do need novelty. We just don’t think we need it [laughs]. I don’t know if that makes sense. We do love,   32:11 Daniel: Yes   32:12 Sarah: we like change. I don’t like the same position every time, I mean, anybody else? I mean, once I actually, was the--I mean, yes, I did missionary position for years, trust me, I know. But now that I’ve educated myself and I’ve found other ways to, you know, “quote, unquote” “sized up the bedroom” I actually do thrive on change in the bedroom. It keeps the spark alive and it creates more novelty, you know? 32:43 Daniel: Well, I think that’s important,   32:45 Sarah: Yeah   32:46 Daniel: because I think a lot of men get criticized because they want something new and that’s scary for their partners, but I--   32:51 Sarah: Yeah   32:52 Daniel: You’re realizing, part of the problem is you wanted it to be changed up, you wanted it exciting, you wanted it novel. And I think that’s part of the discovery for a lot of women in discovering their desire is, “wow, I’m realizing I’m not as vanilla as I thought I was.” 33:07 Sarah: Yeah. 33:08 Daniel: “Where will this end?” Were you concerned with that? Did you feel you were gonna go into desires and passions and things that were forbidden for you? What was that experience like for you? 33:19 Sarah: Yeah. Well, of course in the beginning--because, you know, my shame was still enveloped around me in certain points where it would rise up, you know? But then I’d have to open my eyes, like, “Sarah, quit judging it again!” You know? But at the same time, I realized how we can add just more experiences that we haven’t had necessarily before, in like, the safety of our own couple relationship.   33:55 Daniel: Just going back to the concept of not judging it and allow it to flow naturally.    34:01 Sarah: Yeah.   34:02 Daniel: As Emily Nagoski says, don’t put on the brakes. Just... 34:05 Sarah: Yeah, the brakes. I love that analogy, too. Oh my gosh, shes...yeah. Don’t put on the brakes, keep the accelerator going, because, you know. Sometimes, you don’t know if you’re even going to like it. So, quit judging that you’re not going to like it before you even start it, right? And allow yourself to receive. Okay, that’s another thing. Oh my gosh. As women, we give, give, give all day long, to everybody and everything. All the time. Right? So when I was like, “Sarah, you deserve to receive. You get to receive pleasure, you get to receive these different avenues of novelty, and this is okay for you.” Like, once again, I [laughs] I’ve had to coach myself. I do thisl ike, mental inventory in my head before I have sex with my husband. Like, “Sarah, we can do this. It’s fine. This is something that we’ve talked about, we’ve had discussions about this, we feel comfortable that this is something we want to choose to do and explore, and let’s be open to that.” So, yeah. I'm really good at coaching myself now. 35:19 Daniel: Yeah, it sounds like it. Sounds like you’ve come a long way in just three years. I like the other concept you’ve shared about sex drives, desire level. The differences aren’t the problem. Share with the audience what you meant by that.   35:35 Sarah: Differences aren’t the problem. We label ourselves when we first get married [laughs]. Now, like, you know as I’ve learned, not all men are higher desire partners, okay? Right? 35:49 Daniel: Not at all, right. 35:50 Sarah: Right. And so, we are really quick to label who’s higher, who’s lower, you know? And we, there’s a …. do you want me to quote books in here? 36:05 Daniel: Absolutely! Tell your story. Yep. 36:08 Sarah: Okay. One of the books, Passion Paradox, have you heard of that book? 36:13 Daniel: Actually, no, I haven’t read nor have I heard of it.   36:16 Sarah: Okay, I’m trying to think of the author right now, but it was...it’s like, an old book. It was like....it’s old. But anyway, there’s this...he talks about this whole idea of passion. Because, sometimes like, as women, we label ourselves as lower desire, say that we are, right? And we view the partner as the higher desire. But there’s different ways of expressing and showing passion to each other. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be just like a sexual thing. Sometimes, in different seasons of our lives, we kinda ebb and flow, and you know, go from one extreme to another or something. And I think this whole idea that we put labels is unfortunate, because I chose to give myself that label for all those years, and I clung on to it. And I would just view my husband, like, “you just want sex all the time. And I’m just gonna sit here, and just kinda vent to you that I don’t wanna have it, because I’ve already labelled myself that I don’t want it.”   37:30 Daniel: As opposed to learning how to meet the needs of each other.   37:33 Sarah: Yeah, yeah. 37:34 Daniel: I think that theme is so important throughout your book. I refer to it as breaking the culture of sexual silence, and I love that you hit on it throughout the entirety of your book. Especially, I believe, in chapter 14 talking about it. Even if I don’t know a lot about it, talk about it. Talk about it. Talk about everything you know about sex, and become comfortable with it. That is so important. As you learned early on with your mom, and with other friends, you couldn’t talk about it. And that is one of the biggest desire killers and barriers to education. So, learning how to break that culture of silence around sexuality, even when you don’t know fully what you’re talking about, start to share. That’s what we do. As kids, we talk about things we don’t know, and then parents correct us. People inform us. You go into it non-judgmentally, again, another thing that you carry throughout the book. Absolutely wonderful. You want to tell us a little bit about how you...what that was like for you as you realized you’re in this process, you’re learning. What were some of the fears, hesitations, or positive experiences you had with sharing freely your knowledge?   38:45 Sarah: Ok, so, you know I’m reading all these books, right? And consuming everything that I could. And I just, I remember always just like walking out, like, in public, you know, in Target or wherever, and seeing all these women. And I”m like, “oh. If they only knew. oh if they only knew.” Right? [laughs] and there’s a point where…’cause I truly believe I’ve obviously come to a place where I--and you’ve seen this in my book--I’m a realist. Like, I really share the dark sides of me, and my hang-ups and everything, and I’m okay with it. I've come to a place where I don’t have this fear of judgement of what other people might think of me, because I’ve realized that the more I share, the more respect I get from people. And so, as I was reading all these things, and I’m going out into public and I see all these women, and I’m just wondering, “I wonder if she’s like...if she was like me.” Because I’m now, not. I don’t really...it’s hard for me, sometimes, to even take myself back, even three years ago, to where I was. Because I’m so much more happier now. But sometimes i have to take myself there so that I can be, you know, relatable, to other women, right? So, of course in our LDS culture, [laughs] I have definitely … I’ve lost friendships. I’ll be honest.   40:18 Daniel: What do you mean? I think I know what you’re talking about there, because I’ve experience the same, but share with the audience what that means. Just because you’re being passionate and open about sexuality, you lost friends? 40:28 Sarah: Yeah. 40:29 Daniel: What happened there? 40:30 Sarah: Yeah, so...just in small conversations, or I might have written like a post or something on facebook about a book that I was reading. And then it just rubs somebody the wrong way, you know? And I've actually had a few friends who’ve vocally come and told me that they don’t agree with what I’m talking about and learning about. And that’s fine. It was of course hard to hear, ‘cause it’s like a blow. It’s like this form of rejection that you don’t want to ever experience in your life. But at the same time, there was like, 30+ women behind me saying “thank you. I learned so much from you,” you know? And so, it’s just our human nature to cling-on to those one or two people that give you that negative comment, right? But it definitely propelled me to keep sharing, because I know how my life has changed because of it. And my marriage has changed because of it. And I can’t deny it.    41:43 Sarah: So as I’ve opened up about it, and talked to people within my neighborhood or community, like I just know that I am making strides with people. I actually, just yesterday, I had a friend who had finally come around. I’ve been talking to her for like, since I started reading books, and just recently she was like, “Sarah, I think I’m ready.” You know? And you just have to kinda wait for those people to come around, and they will, eventually. And they’ll realize just how powerful this can be, when they can open and be more curious to see what their life can be like if they chose to look at it with a different perspective.    42:34 Daniel: Absolutely.   42:35 Sarah: So yeah. 42:35 Daniel: In other words, you’re not pushing your narrative. 42:36 Sarah: No.   42:38 Daniel: People know what you know.   42:38 Sarah: No, yeah. 42:40 Daniel: Because, you’re open about it. And you’re waiting for them to come and seek you out. 42:43 Sarah: Yeah. 42:44 Daniel: That’s excellent. 42:45 Sarah: Exactly. yeah, just kinda wait for them and whenever they’re ready, I’ll be there with open arms to teach them and to guide them through their own experience. The crazy part is [laughs] I have no desire to be a sex therapist like yourself, or you know, go and be a professor or anything of that nature. I just love learning about it. I feel like, I don’t know, I guess people can kind of resonate more with a girl off the street I guess first, and then I can guide them to therapists or whoever else they need help with, right? Because I obviously don’t have all the tools, but I’m their starting point, you know? And that’s what I love about me being open about it, is that I can be their starting point and then they can move from there to seek more professional help if they need it, you know? 43:41 Daniel: Absolutely. What a wonderful theme that you’ve carried out through the book. I think it’s been wonderfully done, I think you’ve communicated well. Are there...as we wrap up here, is there anything else about the book or your experiences that you feel is important for the audience to know about you, and your journey, or maybe possibly the journey that they’re going through? 44:02 Sarah: Oh yeah, I mean, as you [...] just, the book, in and of itself, it just breaks down so many things. You know, out there in our audience, you  might have someone who feels like they are broken, right? Or, they feel like, that there’s no hope in their marriage. We didn’t even touch on porn, that’s a whole-nother enchilada in and of itself…   44:28 Daniel: So, I… hold off on that, because I--   44:31 Sarah: [laughs]   44:31 Daniel: I love that you refer to porn the way you did in your book, as a compulsion, as a temptation, as a potential device in a marriage or [pauses] divisiveness in a marriage.    44:45 Sarah: Yeah.   44:46 Daniel: And I love the language that you used in there, and I would be interested in exploring that a little more, if you’d like. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about it, and why you included it? 44:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, obviously from personal experience, it was not me, it was my husband’s, right? I think it’s just, he actually, it was the [....]  I remember the day, and I’m sure a lot of men and women here can remember the day that their spouse came to them with this news, right? Or they found out in some other way, right? That’ll be a day that you won’t ever forget.    45:24 Sarah: But, that day, he came and approached me, and it was during this time that I had finished writing my first book. And I was, like I said before, I was in a really good place, and just felt pretty good about life because I was working on myself. And I think that’s what’s key here, in this chapter particularly, is, whether man or woman, right? Really focus on, what are you doing in the relationship? What can you do to better yourself, to become a better version of yourself? And that’s kinda where i was at that point, luckily.    46:01 Sarah: And that’s when Trent felt comfortable to actually approach me and tell me about his porn addiction. Because, you know, he had these fears that I would leave him and all these things, right? Like everybody might have. And he came, and he told me, and it was just this, you know, gut-wrenching kind of feeling. And the first question that came into my mind, “what’s wrong with me? Why does he feel like he has to do this? I can’t believe he’s done this. He’s this amazing man, how did porn get a hold of him?” Kind of thing. And so, back then, I was doing a lot of video journaling, and so after he told me, I just was like, “kay, just hold on a second, I need to go into my closet and kinda think about this.”    46:48 Sarah: So, I went to my closet and for ten minutes I just kind of, just like, talked to myself. Like, just basically went through, in my head, what I’d just heard. And, it’s interesting, I still have this video and I treasure it, but...so you’ll notice (well, you won’t notice, because you’re not watching it), but in the first five minutes, I’m just like, processing, like, “why him? Why me?” Everything right? This pity party. And then, the last five minutes, I just kinda make this shift. It was God telling me, “Sarah, he’s a son of God.” And that’s all I heard. That’s all I heard, and I knew that I needed to walk with him in this journey.    47:34 Sarah: I was not to fix him, because I can’t fix him, right? But I can walk with him to, you know, figure out how to help him navigate, you know, and how to get the help that he needed kind of stuff. And so, that was [...] once again, it’s a simple thing, but that was the one thing that really carried me through that experience. Just recognizing that he’s a son of God and together we can work through the porn addiction, and we can come out on top. And we definitely have. And it’s been an incredible experience. But there’s definitely been pain. It hasn’t been easy. But, there’s definitely a light at the end of the tunnel.   48:22 Daniel: A lot of people are listening, saying, “okay, yeah, you just shared he just dumped this big thing on you.” And if I remember right, you even equate pornography to adultery, or cheating, on the relationship, am I remembering correctly? 48:39 Sarah: Yeah. 48:39 Daniel: That’s a very big view to have. One that, generally, is very divisive in a relationship. And you also refer to it as an addiction. And if anybody’s been in my group, they know how sensitive I am about that terminology.    48:54 Sarah: Yeah.   48:54 Daniel: You actually went and learned a lot from Cameron Staley, 48:58: Oh, man. 48:59 Daniel: about mindfulness, which is not an addiction approach, it’s a very mindful approach. 49:03Sarah: Yeah. 49:03 Daniel: Which is very much in harmony with the theme of your book: non-judgemental, non-rigid around these things but being more mindful and self-aware. 49:15 Sarah: Self-awareness is huge, yeah. 49:17 Daniel: And I think that led you to this [...] because usually, the concepts of addiction don’t lead you into the direction that you’re talking about, in fact, it leads you in a very opposite direction. But I love that mindfulness, and fortunately, meeting up with Cameron, or whatever you learned from him, it led you to this idea.   49:34 Sarah: Yeah. 49:35 Daniel: One of the concepts that you shared there was, and I’m gonna put it in my terminology: “I don’t view sex as a punishment or reward, I view it as communcation.” And you talk about there, “yes, it’s not your fault, and you as the wife, you’re not responsible for his behavior. However, why are you punishing him by not giving him sex? Is that your because of your insecurity?” I realize I’m butchering your words, I’m putting in mine.   49:59 Sarah: Yeah. 50:00 Daniel: And correct me if I’m misrepresenting your train of thought there. But, you're saying, “embrace them. Don’t withhold sex because of mabye, your insecurities.”   50:09 Sarah: Yep, that’s the worst thing you could do, is to withhold it.   50:10 Daniel: Absolutely, absolutely. Although, giving them sex, you shouldn’t have this expecation: now, he’s gonna be safe, you know? In fact, I think you pointed that out, if I remember right. 50:20 Sarah: Yes, I did. 50:21 Daniel: You said somethinglike, “okay, I’m gonna give him all”--because some women do that--”I’m gonna give him all the sex he needs so he avoids it.”   50:26 Sarah: Then he won’t even go look, yeah.   50:27 Daniel: And that’s a reward or punishment approach, as opposed to communication and connecting.   50:33 Sarah: Yes. 50:33 Daniel: And so, ironically, taking that other approach of withholding or giving too much, is very much objectification, and divisive in the relationship. It’s not connected. And so I love that you embrace that idea, of “it’s not my responsibility, but I’m not going to miss this opportunity to connect with my partner. Because I view porn in this context”--whatever it is-- “I’m not going to let that get in my way of connecting with my partner.” I thought that was beautiful.   51:02 Sarah: Yeah, just finding that middle ground. I mean, I remember coming home and asking anything I could about porn. Because, I had no idea what that world was like. None. And so, it blew my mind to see, like, wow. I really don’t know anything! But at the same time, like, let’s come together and have conversations to see, like, how we can navigate this new normal. Come to a middle ground to connect. I mean, we uh, this could be a whole-nother podcast. That definitely, that experience...I mean, it didn’t take me on my sex journey, because I found out about this, probably like 5 years ago.    51:51 Daniel: You mean, his use of porn? 51:54 Sarah: Yes, his use of porn. And so, there were still a couple years in between there where I was just trying to like, you know, I’d have [...] our communication was better, it wasn’t the best as it is now, but we were definitely communicating. And I wasn't that one that was like, you know, denying him and like, that kind of thing. Because, I was kind of understanding how, you know, I needed to create this middle ground to see how we can evolve into something better. And so then, when I finally accepted like, “okay, I need to work on my sexuality,” then that took us to a whole-nother level. And he’s been amazing and [pauses], yeah. He doesn’t have those compulsions anymore and even if he does, he comes and talks to me about it, you know? And so, we’ve created a very healthy relationship in regards to porn.    52:52 Daniel: Sarah, that is wonderful. I would actually really love having you on again, at a future time, to talk about that.    52:58 Sarah: Yeah. 53:00 Daniel: Again, the book is Underneath it All...You’re Naked. Wonderful theme throughout the book. I think you did an amazing job with it, and I think the audience would really benefit from it. Thank you so much for coming on.   53:11 Sarah: Thank you. Aw, yeah, it’s been a pleasure. I appreciate you letting me have an opportunity to share my story. 53:18 Daniel: Thank you.   53:18 Sarah: It’s always something I like to talk about [laughs].   53:20 Daniel: Oh, clearly, 53:21 Sarah: It changed my life. Like, literally changed my life.   53:24 Daniel: Yeah. Your journey has been--   53:25 Sarah: Saved me. 53:26 Daniel: amazing. Thank you so much, Sarah. 53:28 Sarah: You’re welcome. [music]  

Leão Lobo e suas fofocas quentíssimas! O jornalista e fofoqueiro mais querido do Brasil, falou sobre o 9° paredão que foi formado no BBB21 por Juliette, Rodolffo e Sarah. PROGRAMA FRANCISCO RICCI: De segunda a sexta, das 10h às 12h, pela Rádio Clube do Vale, com notícias, resumo das novelas, horóscopo do dia, muita música! Ouça pelo site: http://www.radioclubedovale.com.br ou pelo APP: http://bit.ly/appdaclube

No 32º episódio de O Brasil Tá Vendo, os jornalistas Fernanda Lopes, Paola Zanon e Erick Matheus Nery conversam sobre a trajetória de Sarah no BBB21. Quando a participante deixou de ser favorita do público? O que motivou o ódio dela por Juliette? Sarah está prejudicando o jogo de Gil ou está se afundando sozinha? O papo passa por estas e outras questões.O Brasil Tá Vendo é um podcast do site Notícias da TV. Nas redes sociais, somos @noticiasdatvoficial no Instagram, @noticiasdatv no Twitter e Notícias da TV no Instagram. Deixe seus comentários no site ou nas redes sociais!

Cash Flow Basics With Sarah Stein G'day everyone out there, today we're going to be talking about cash flow basics and why cash flow is important in your business. Cash flow should be straightforward enough, but people seem to keep doing it wrong. So we've got Sarah back again from Miss Efficiency Bookkeeping to see what we can get through when it comes to cash flow. So Sarah, what is the number one rule when it comes to cash flow? Where is your money going? Sarah: I think the number one rule is just to keep an eye on it. Just because you're profitable on your P&L doesn't necessarily mean that your business is going to be successful. You could have lots of profit on paper, but if you have no money in the bank, how are you going to make payroll? Or how are you going to make those loan repayments? I think the number one thing is to know where your money is going and when and where it's coming from.  Is that more around the forecasting things? What if you've got a brand new business that you haven't done any groundwork with? If that's the case, when is the right time to start planning and seeing where your money is coming from, where it's going, and getting your ducks lined up from day one? Sarah: From day one. Before you've got any money coming in, because how do you know how much money you need? How do you know what your expenses can be? How much money do you want out of the business? So I didn't do that. I didn't do that from day one. Ideally, if somebody came to me and said, I'm going to start my new business, this is what it's going to be, what should I do? This is what I would say to them. Put a cash flow in place. Now, it's hard, don't get me wrong. I'm a bookkeeper, and it's still hard. So think about a cash budget, for example. Now I like to reverse engineer things. So most people will start at their income. Then they'll put their costs in the net, their expenses, and then if they're lucky, they may or may not be some profit at the end, which the business owner may or may not get, because that profit may or may not actually be cash in the bank. So instead of doing that, let's reverse engineer. Why are you in business, and what you want to get out of it? The first thing you could do is make a clarity plan. This is for you personally. It's not thinking about the business yet. It's thinking about what do I, Sarah, want to get out of the business? For myself and for my family. We haven't even got to the vehicle; we're just starting at the destination. That's where we want to be. Example of a clarity plan So my clarity plan, for example, is really simple. I have no debt and have two investment properties. So that if either of my children wanted to be, they could be set up with their own houses. That's it. I don't need a million dollars in the bank. I don't need flash cars. I just want to have no debt and two properties. That's what I want to work towards.  Think about your business plan Then you need to go to the next layer below that, which is your business plan. So your business is going to achieve your clarity plan. What do you need to do in your business in order to achieve your clarity plan? So that's going to talk about what are the projects that you've got to do. Put your business plan in place now with the end goal in achieving the clarity plan. Think about what you want from being in business The clarity plan can change over time. When I started the business went gangbusters, but what I really wanted was to help businesses. So I pivoted to helping with automating businesses rather than automating Education Queensland. Nothing wrong with Education Queensland, but I would rather help businesses between five to 100 employees then help businesses with 10,000 employees. For myself, a lot of what I want isn't to do with finances as much as it's to do with what I want to be remembered for and what I am leaving behind for my children. My business changed from being a business of passion to being a business of flexibility. Now it's a bit more well rounded and balanced. So I wanted to ask you, so what are the different types of profit and should you just be looking at your business as a vehicle in your investment property or separate to that? Sarah: That's probably a question that's a little bit beyond my scope, and more in line with an accountant or a financial planner, but I think that you need to look at everything as a whole. You need to look at your asset protection, where those properties are sitting, how you set up for tax, but that's a whole different conversation in itself. Cash flow is how you achieve your business plan Coming back to the business plan, the step before that is how are you going to achieve your business plan? That's your cash flow projection. If we start at the bottom, you've got your cash flow, which is working towards your business plan, which is then working towards the clarity plan. They're all in alignment with each other. We run our cash flow on a weekly basis, so I look at my numbers every day. But again, I'm a bookkeeper. I don't pull a report out of Zero, because that would be too easy. What I do is I take all of my numbers out of Zero, and I manually enter them into an Excel spreadsheet. I think putting it into an Excel spreadsheet manually submits it into your brain. That's the most important thing in my business because I know exactly what's in the bank. I know what's coming in, and I know what's going out Business owners don't always have to miss out on the piece of the pie Sometimes shit happens when you are trying to stay in control of your business. If you have some unexpected things happen, maybe a key person within your business leaves or a pandemic, do you prioritise your expenses and income streams if you know that your expenses each month? If they become slightly out of balance, is it the business owner that takes less of the pie at the end of the day, do you need to be more ruthless there, or how do you prioritise your expenses?  Sarah: I don't entirely agree with the business owner taking less. I, to a degree, work with the profit-first philosophy. But something like COVID, our generation of business owners, I think that has fundamentally changed the way we will go into the future with how we think about and do business. Many businesses have had to change the way they deliver their product or their service. I think, in some aspects, COVID has actually been great for business, because it's meant that business owners have gotten out of their comfort zone, and looked at their business differently, as well as looking at their money differently. Make your payment terms work for you It's definitely about being aware and putting all of those things that you would normally put in place for good healthy cash flows. Making sure people are paying you on time, making sure you're giving people lots of ways to pay, getting good payment terms, things like that. Then in times of COVID, if you offer a service or a product, get paid upfront. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm of the opinion that if people are not happy to pay upfront, or even make a deposit, and how do you know that they're going to pay you at the end of the job? We made a decision when it comes to direct debit requests; if someone is not interested in signing straight away, we're not interested in having them as a client. Every time, not once or twice, but every time that clients have said no to direct deposits, instead of abiding by the net 10-day term, it gets to net 90, and there are 1000s of dollars owing. I ran a quick compounding interest calculation and worked out that I could have had a free carton of beer every month if everyone paid their invoices on time. Sarah: If everybody stuck to that exact same model, it would work for everybody. The other thing with COVID is that I've found many of my clients actually are in a much stronger cash flow position now than they were before COVID. I think it comes back to people are so more in tune and aware and conscious of the money.  Regularly check up on your contracts Last year I had a look into what can we do to change around the way the business is working. I changed a few bits and pieces and shaved $15,000 worth of expenses a month out of the business. In the first quarter of COVID, we had the worst on record for 10 years. If that had happened before we cut some costs, we would have been $45,000 worse off. It was followed by the best quarter that we've ever had in history, so I can't complain about COVID. We saved for that rainy day and had six months of expenses in the bank. If you can run the business with no income at all for six months, you should be able to combat nearly everything. The book "Profit First" may be a gamechanger for you Sarah: I heard about this book called "Profit First" a lot, and I didn't really know too much about it. My only perception was you had to have all of these extra bank accounts, which seemed ridiculous, but that's from my lack of knowledge. Something came up in a forum in January last year, and I told myself to get that book.  So I picked it up, I read it, and absolutely loved that book. I followed the guidelines of the book quite closely, and I set up the other bank accounts, but then I thought, you know, this doesn't really work for me. So I've changed it to make it work for me. In Profit First, they talk about getting to a certain percentage that you want to run your operating expenses through. My 12-month prediction was to be at where those percentages were, I was there within three months. That was purely from being more conscious. I cut some expenses, but I also increased some expenses because I realised I could actually be more efficient if I just changed a few things. So it got me thinking about what I actually need to run my business, I have never in my business had spare money. Now I do, and it just gives me so much peace of mind. It has been honestly, quite effortless. If you put in the work, you will be rewarded Everyone out there that's thinking, I can't do this, just take a deep breath. Really feel the stress leaving when you think about that money just sitting there and how much better it is.  Sarah: Why put your energy into worrying that you can make payroll on Monday, when you know that you can meet it and put that extra energy and passion into growing your team or growing your business or developing new products or service offerings? If anybody has not heard of Profit First, make it work for you. I would say absolutely, 100% do it. This is not an ad for Profit First, but it absolutely works for me. It's really easy, and not something that's going to take you hours each week to get done.  Ask yourself these questions Why did you get into business to start off with? What was your clarity plan? Are you achieving that clarity plan? Are you stepping in the right direction? It's important to make sure that you are continually revisiting your clarity plan. Profit First is a tool in the toolbox, and if you're not going to use the tool, you might not be necessarily building the right thing that you want in the direction that you want. Sarah's favourite books  So around now we normally asked what your favourite book is, but it sounds like we might have already answered that question. Sarah: My ultimate all-time favourite book is The E Myth. By Michael Gerber! That was the first business book that I read back in 2007. It's amazing the way he describes how to make sure that you've got technicians and the different hats that you're wearing in business. Sarah: It's absolutely been the foundation of how I built my business. After that book then, yes, I think Profit First would be very high up there. The book that I'm reading at the moment is called SYSTEMology, which talks about putting systems into your business and being able to then not be the person that's relied upon completely to run your business. That's really the ultimate goal, right? It should be! I did a presentation at a school a while ago around what my thoughts are as a business owner to a bunch of year 11 year 12 students. There were people from all walks of life, and I said you can be the bricklayer. But how long can your body let you be the bricklayer before you then have to start working at Bunnings. Nothing wrong with working at Bunnings, but if you want to be the bricklayer and not work at Bunnings later, that shouldn't be your plan unless that is within your plan. Being a business owner means you can jump in and off the tools, and it also means that your income should be limitless. You can have people that are doing the work that you don't like doing. I tell people being a business owner is the best profession, the best thing that you can do.  Sarah: I have a very funny story to tell you. We were driving to school, and we had this very deep conversation about what are you going to do when you grow up? I'm a business owner and my husband as an employee, so one of my kids was trying to grasp what the differences actually meant. So Jaden was eight at the time, and I told him you could be an employee and work for a business which is what dad does. Or you can be a business owner, and your clients and your customers are the ones that pay you. So I said, what will you do Jaden? Will you get money from the government? Will you be an employee? Or will you be a business owner? He looked at me very seriously, and he said, I think I'm just going to get myself a wife.  Thinking outside the box, that's great! Find your freedom Sarah: Running a business isn't for everybody; you've got to still have that passion. But you can make it anything that you want it to be. You're not stuck in the box of working for a particular industry or a boss. All the options can become as limitless as your passion and your imagination. That sounds really corny and cheesy, but it's really true. I completely agree. For some people, having the flexibility to be able to do that in your own business is perfect. If anyone out there is wanting to start a business and they haven't made the decision yet, if you can't save money while you're in your current job I'm going to say you are going to have a lot of trouble doing that when you have to start from zero and work for yourself. You have to be the person wearing lots of hats, so if you're not able to put some of that away and use that as a safety net, you may get in a lot of trouble. You have to have that drive and that passion to succeed no matter what. My wife Sarah was told by someone that she was never going to have her own business. It's not going to work. There's no money in doing what you want to do. She met me, and I said, do whatever you want to do, you can make money selling cupcakes, how is that different from doing hair and makeup? That was two years and two months ago. She now has seven people working with her. So don't listen to other people. Listen to your heart, let it drive your success and make sure that you're passionate enough to go through and do that.  Sarah: I don't think you should go into business purely to make buckets of money. Because that will always be a slog, you'll always be chasing more money. Whereas if you go into business chasing your passion and you are driven, the money will always just come. As the saying goes, if you enjoy what you're doing, you'll never work a day in your life. At business expos, you can see the people that are business owners and the people that are employed to sit there, because they're just on their phones. I said this to Sarah on our honeymoon, what is the difference between a holiday and working if you enjoy working? The final word I really enjoyed talking to you again today, is there anything else to touch on before we head off? Sarah: No, I think that pretty much covers it. Just be mindful of where your money is at, and cash is definitely king. I'm just going to add to that and say remember to check what you're paying for. It surprised me how quickly mobile phone plans change. I saw one recently that was $99 a year for unlimited calls on one of the major networks and I thought only a year ago, that would have been $30 or $40 a month. So keep your finger on the pulse with your expenses.  Sarah: With savings, some people think I can't save all of my money because it's devoted to my business or if I'm an employee, it's devoted to paying off the house and groceries. If you just put away 1% of what you earn during the week, you're not even going to notice. But have a look to see how much is in that bank account at the end of six months and then at the end of 12 months. It has been completely effortless. So then if you just very slowly, systematically increase that 1% you will have money there. Do whatever you want to do with it, but it's not coming out of your operating expenses money. It adds up. Look to change your mortgage too. I changed our mortgages on our investment properties and saved $12,000 a year. Now I have $1,000 a month I can put towards something else, and I was just blown away by that. Remember: Keep your finger on the pulse Cash is king Shape your clarity plan into your business plan If you do these things, you're going to be on the road to success.    

John: So Sarah, you're an English teacher, right?Sarah: That's right.John: You must have taught in many countries before.Sarah: Yeah, I did. I taught in the USA, in Taiwan, China, South Korea, Japan and Ecuador.John: Oh, Ecuador.Sarah: Yeah.John: So you must be able to speak Spanish very well.Sarah: I think so. I studied really hard, and then when I lived in Ecuador, I spent a lot of time talking to people.John: Did you teach Spanish, too?Sarah: No, I didn't. When I lived in Ecuador actually, I volunteered for the United Nations.John: Wow.Sarah: And I taught families and they were being relocated to Canada because they were fleeing the drug wars of Colombia.John: Wow.Sarah: So I felt very badly for these families but they had a really bright future. So that was good. But then one week, I had a family, a couple of families and they were being relocated to Sweden.John: Oh.Sarah: And I said, "I can't teach them Swedish." And the UN said, "Well, maybe just teach them English." So I thought, they're going to Sweden, they don't need to learn English right now. And my friend at the time – she's Norwegian, and we were living together. And every day, she helped me to learn a little bit of Swedish. Just enough for one class so that I could teach these families…John: Wait, wait.Sarah: …some Swedish.John: You were teaching Swedish language?Sarah: Yes.John: You are an English speaker.Sarah: Yes.John: You lived in Ecuador.Sarah: Yes.John: And a Norwegian person taught you Swedish.Sarah: Yes.John: So you could teach Swedish to people from Ecuador.Sarah: From Colombia, currently living in Ecuador.John: So they could move to Sweden.Sarah: Yes.John: And you did this as a volunteer.Sarah: Yeah. I wanted to help people. So I moved to Ecuador and I got a volunteer job with the United Nations to help teach people but I never thought I would be teaching Swedish.John: Wow.Sarah: Yeah. It was a lot of fun.John: I would like to try that someday, too.Sarah: You can do it.

John: So I was wondering about disciplining kids in public. You have kids, right?Sarah: Yeah. I have two kids. I have a three-year old and a one-year old.John: Are they ever naughty when you're out in public?Sarah: Yes. They are naughty out in public. And I think that you shouldn't discipline your children in front of other people. So if I'm out in public and my three-year old starts to be naughty and she's crying because she wants a toy from the store or something, I will pick her up and I take her somewhere quiet until she's calm. Like I might take her to the family bathroom or a quiet hallway, so she can stop crying and stop making noise.John: I see. So you wouldn't just give her the toy she wants.Sarah: No. I don't think you should do that sort of thing to make your child be quiet, just give them something until they are quiet because then they'll be bad more in the future. If they know they can cry and scream, and mom and dad will give them what they want, they'll just be worse and worse.John: Oh, I see. They'll learn that it's okay. They can get what they want by crying.Sarah: Yeah.John: But don't you think you'll – won't you lose more time if you have to take your kids to some quiet place to calm down?Sarah: Yeah. You lose time but I think it's worth it because I think of the future and the time I'll save by making sure that my child is better behaved in the future. And the other thing too is I'm always trying to think about other people. So I don't want other people to have to listen to my child scream and cry. And I also don't want them to see me talking sternly to her because they'll maybe be annoyed or feel uncomfortable. And maybe my child will scream more because she can feel that. So I try to go somewhere quiet.John: Oh, I see.Sarah: Sometimes that's impossible though. Sometimes, if you're on the plane or on a train, you can't go anywhere or do anything. You have to stay in your seat.John: What if you're on an airplane, then do you give your child whatever they are crying for as soon as possible?Sarah: Yes, I do. I try to plan ahead and I think, okay, I need to have enough toys. I need to have lots of snacks, lots of fun things so that I prevent them from becoming naughty or crying or screaming. But sometimes, you can't help it. And if you're child or baby starts to be loud at that point, I will. I'll give them candy or food or toy, whatever they want.John: Oh, I get it. So I think you're saying, you think there might be a different reason why kids become naughty. Besides what they want…Sarah: Yeah.John: For example, they're hungry or bored.Sarah: Yeah. I think a lot of the times, children are naughty because maybe they're tired or they're hungry, or they want to play and stretch their legs but they can't because they're on the plane or they're in a stroller at the.John: So instead of waiting for bad behavior and then doing some discipline like yelling at your kids or grabbing their arms, maybe it's better to prevent bad behavior by making sure the kids sleep enough and don't get bored.Sarah: Yeah. That's what I'm saying. And, you know, my kids are young. Just three and one. So a one-year old can't really be naughty. They're just a baby. So if they need something, I give them food or what they need. But a three-year old, they can throw a tantrum. And so, they can be very naughty.John: A tantrum?Sarah: Yeah. When they scream and maybe they fall down on the floor, and they kick their legs. Sometimes they try to hit you. It's really bad. But I think all two-and-three-year-old children sometimes they do them.John: Oh, I've heard of that. It's called the.Sarah: Yes. But it also lasts into three.John: Well, it sounds like you're a good parent.Sarah: Oh, I try.

John: So I was wondering about disciplining kids in public. You have kids, right?Sarah: Yeah. I have two kids. I have a three-year old and a one-year old.John: Are they ever naughty when you're out in public?Sarah: Yes. They are naughty out in public. And I think that you shouldn't discipline your children in front of other people. So if I'm out in public and my three-year old starts to be naughty and she's crying because she wants a toy from the store or something, I will pick her up and I take her somewhere quiet until she's calm. Like I might take her to the family bathroom or a quiet hallway, so she can stop crying and stop making noise.John: I see. So you wouldn't just give her the toy she wants.Sarah: No. I don't think you should do that sort of thing to make your child be quiet, just give them something until they are quiet because then they'll be bad more in the future. If they know they can cry and scream, and mom and dad will give them what they want, they'll just be worse and worse.John: Oh, I see. They'll learn that it's okay. They can get what they want by crying.Sarah: Yeah.John: But don't you think you'll – won't you lose more time if you have to take your kids to some quiet place to calm down?Sarah: Yeah. You lose time but I think it's worth it because I think of the future and the time I'll save by making sure that my child is better behaved in the future. And the other thing too is I'm always trying to think about other people. So I don't want other people to have to listen to my child scream and cry. And I also don't want them to see me talking sternly to her because they'll maybe be annoyed or feel uncomfortable. And maybe my child will scream more because she can feel that. So I try to go somewhere quiet.John: Oh, I see.Sarah: Sometimes that's impossible though. Sometimes, if you're on the plane or on a train, you can't go anywhere or do anything. You have to stay in your seat.John: What if you're on an airplane, then do you give your child whatever they are crying for as soon as possible?Sarah: Yes, I do. I try to plan ahead and I think, okay, I need to have enough toys. I need to have lots of snacks, lots of fun things so that I prevent them from becoming naughty or crying or screaming. But sometimes, you can't help it. And if you're child or baby starts to be loud at that point, I will. I'll give them candy or food or toy, whatever they want.John: Oh, I get it. So I think you're saying, you think there might be a different reason why kids become naughty. Besides what they want…Sarah: Yeah.John: For example, they're hungry or bored.Sarah: Yeah. I think a lot of the times, children are naughty because maybe they're tired or they're hungry, or they want to play and stretch their legs but they can't because they're on the plane or they're in a stroller at the.John: So instead of waiting for bad behavior and then doing some discipline like yelling at your kids or grabbing their arms, maybe it's better to prevent bad behavior by making sure the kids sleep enough and don't get bored.Sarah: Yeah. That's what I'm saying. And, you know, my kids are young. Just three and one. So a one-year old can't really be naughty. They're just a baby. So if they need something, I give them food or what they need. But a three-year old, they can throw a tantrum. And so, they can be very naughty.John: A tantrum?Sarah: Yeah. When they scream and maybe they fall down on the floor, and they kick their legs. Sometimes they try to hit you. It's really bad. But I think all two-and-three-year-old children sometimes they do them.John: Oh, I've heard of that. It's called the.Sarah: Yes. But it also lasts into three.John: Well, it sounds like you're a good parent.Sarah: Oh, I try.

John: So I was wondering about disciplining kids in public. You have kids, right?Sarah: Yeah. I have two kids. I have a three-year old and a one-year old.John: Are they ever naughty when you're out in public?Sarah: Yes. They are naughty out in public. And I think that you shouldn't discipline your children in front of other people. So if I'm out in public and my three-year old starts to be naughty and she's crying because she wants a toy from the store or something, I will pick her up and I take her somewhere quiet until she's calm. Like I might take her to the family bathroom or a quiet hallway, so she can stop crying and stop making noise.John: I see. So you wouldn't just give her the toy she wants.Sarah: No. I don't think you should do that sort of thing to make your child be quiet, just give them something until they are quiet because then they'll be bad more in the future. If they know they can cry and scream, and mom and dad will give them what they want, they'll just be worse and worse.John: Oh, I see. They'll learn that it's okay. They can get what they want by crying.Sarah: Yeah.John: But don't you think you'll – won't you lose more time if you have to take your kids to some quiet place to calm down?Sarah: Yeah. You lose time but I think it's worth it because I think of the future and the time I'll save by making sure that my child is better behaved in the future. And the other thing too is I'm always trying to think about other people. So I don't want other people to have to listen to my child scream and cry. And I also don't want them to see me talking sternly to her because they'll maybe be annoyed or feel uncomfortable. And maybe my child will scream more because she can feel that. So I try to go somewhere quiet.John: Oh, I see.Sarah: Sometimes that's impossible though. Sometimes, if you're on the plane or on a train, you can't go anywhere or do anything. You have to stay in your seat.John: What if you're on an airplane, then do you give your child whatever they are crying for as soon as possible?Sarah: Yes, I do. I try to plan ahead and I think, okay, I need to have enough toys. I need to have lots of snacks, lots of fun things so that I prevent them from becoming naughty or crying or screaming. But sometimes, you can't help it. And if you're child or baby starts to be loud at that point, I will. I'll give them candy or food or toy, whatever they want.John: Oh, I get it. So I think you're saying, you think there might be a different reason why kids become naughty. Besides what they want…Sarah: Yeah.John: For example, they're hungry or bored.Sarah: Yeah. I think a lot of the times, children are naughty because maybe they're tired or they're hungry, or they want to play and stretch their legs but they can't because they're on the plane or they're in a stroller at the.John: So instead of waiting for bad behavior and then doing some discipline like yelling at your kids or grabbing their arms, maybe it's better to prevent bad behavior by making sure the kids sleep enough and don't get bored.Sarah: Yeah. That's what I'm saying. And, you know, my kids are young. Just three and one. So a one-year old can't really be naughty. They're just a baby. So if they need something, I give them food or what they need. But a three-year old, they can throw a tantrum. And so, they can be very naughty.John: A tantrum?Sarah: Yeah. When they scream and maybe they fall down on the floor, and they kick their legs. Sometimes they try to hit you. It's really bad. But I think all two-and-three-year-old children sometimes they do them.John: Oh, I've heard of that. It's called the.Sarah: Yes. But it also lasts into three.John: Well, it sounds like you're a good parent.Sarah: Oh, I try.

Adam: Sarah, I heard you worked in reality TV. Can you tell us a little bit about that?Sarah: Yeah. When I was living in Orlando, Florida, I worked for a production company that filmed reality television. And first of all, it was an interesting job because I worked from 7 o'clock at night until 5 in the morning. It was me and four other guys. And I was the only person who hadn't been to film school that was working there.And overnight we would transcribe video footage. So what we would do is we would watch the extended footage of the reality shows that this company produced, and we would type out everything that they were saying. And I quickly came to realize that everything in television is scripted, even reality television because they would often prompt the people what to say on the shows.Adam: Interesting. Was the producer there on camera prompting them to say things that you saw but we as viewers might not see?Sarah: Oh yeah. So all the producers and the staff are all around and in-between takes, you know, they'll try to get them to say things a certain way. And so they'll often retake scenes over and over again until they get the kind of footage that they want.Adam: Interesting. Can you tell us what TV show you were filming?Sarah: No, I probably can't say that.Adam: How did you get a job like that if you didn't have the same filming background that your colleagues had?Sarah: I grew up in radio, so because I had radio, media on my resume, they hired me.Adam: Were you interested in reality TV before you got that job?Sarah: Not at all. I was just trying to pay rent and pay my bills. So actually at that time, I was working five different jobs. That was just one of them.Adam: Wow! That's amazing. Pulling all-nighters as well.Sarah: Yup.Adam: Was there a reason that you had to work at night?Sarah: That particular job, that's what they hired me for because they had people who did that job during the day, too.So we were the night shift.Adam: So that's really interesting. So when you watch reality TV show today, how do you feel? Can you sense what the producers are trying to do or can you enjoy it? How do you feel about watching reality TV now?Sarah: I never really liked reality television before I worked with reality television. And now, I like it even less because I realized it is all fake and all scripted, and it's not very interesting to me.Adam: How did the actors or the members of the reality TV show casts, how did they feel about this scripting of the TV show?Sarah: They seem to be fine with it because they, you know, signed all the contracts and the things to be on the show. So they don't really mind it.Adam: Wow. That's really interesting.

Adam: Sarah, I heard you worked in reality TV. Can you tell us a little bit about that?Sarah: Yeah. When I was living in Orlando, Florida, I worked for a production company that filmed reality television. And first of all, it was an interesting job because I worked from 7 o'clock at night until 5 in the morning. It was me and four other guys. And I was the only person who hadn't been to film school that was working there.And overnight we would transcribe video footage. So what we would do is we would watch the extended footage of the reality shows that this company produced, and we would type out everything that they were saying. And I quickly came to realize that everything in television is scripted, even reality television because they would often prompt the people what to say on the shows.Adam: Interesting. Was the producer there on camera prompting them to say things that you saw but we as viewers might not see?Sarah: Oh yeah. So all the producers and the staff are all around and in-between takes, you know, they'll try to get them to say things a certain way. And so they'll often retake scenes over and over again until they get the kind of footage that they want.Adam: Interesting. Can you tell us what TV show you were filming?Sarah: No, I probably can't say that.Adam: How did you get a job like that if you didn't have the same filming background that your colleagues had?Sarah: I grew up in radio, so because I had radio, media on my resume, they hired me.Adam: Were you interested in reality TV before you got that job?Sarah: Not at all. I was just trying to pay rent and pay my bills. So actually at that time, I was working five different jobs. That was just one of them.Adam: Wow! That's amazing. Pulling all-nighters as well.Sarah: Yup.Adam: Was there a reason that you had to work at night?Sarah: That particular job, that's what they hired me for because they had people who did that job during the day, too.So we were the night shift.Adam: So that's really interesting. So when you watch reality TV show today, how do you feel? Can you sense what the producers are trying to do or can you enjoy it? How do you feel about watching reality TV now?Sarah: I never really liked reality television before I worked with reality television. And now, I like it even less because I realized it is all fake and all scripted, and it's not very interesting to me.Adam: How did the actors or the members of the reality TV show casts, how did they feel about this scripting of the TV show?Sarah: They seem to be fine with it because they, you know, signed all the contracts and the things to be on the show. So they don't really mind it.Adam: Wow. That's really interesting.

Adam: Sarah, I heard you worked in reality TV. Can you tell us a little bit about that?Sarah: Yeah. When I was living in Orlando, Florida, I worked for a production company that filmed reality television. And first of all, it was an interesting job because I worked from 7 o'clock at night until 5 in the morning. It was me and four other guys. And I was the only person who hadn't been to film school that was working there.And overnight we would transcribe video footage. So what we would do is we would watch the extended footage of the reality shows that this company produced, and we would type out everything that they were saying. And I quickly came to realize that everything in television is scripted, even reality television because they would often prompt the people what to say on the shows.Adam: Interesting. Was the producer there on camera prompting them to say things that you saw but we as viewers might not see?Sarah: Oh yeah. So all the producers and the staff are all around and in-between takes, you know, they'll try to get them to say things a certain way. And so they'll often retake scenes over and over again until they get the kind of footage that they want.Adam: Interesting. Can you tell us what TV show you were filming?Sarah: No, I probably can't say that.Adam: How did you get a job like that if you didn't have the same filming background that your colleagues had?Sarah: I grew up in radio, so because I had radio, media on my resume, they hired me.Adam: Were you interested in reality TV before you got that job?Sarah: Not at all. I was just trying to pay rent and pay my bills. So actually at that time, I was working five different jobs. That was just one of them.Adam: Wow! That's amazing. Pulling all-nighters as well.Sarah: Yup.Adam: Was there a reason that you had to work at night?Sarah: That particular job, that's what they hired me for because they had people who did that job during the day, too.So we were the night shift.Adam: So that's really interesting. So when you watch reality TV show today, how do you feel? Can you sense what the producers are trying to do or can you enjoy it? How do you feel about watching reality TV now?Sarah: I never really liked reality television before I worked with reality television. And now, I like it even less because I realized it is all fake and all scripted, and it's not very interesting to me.Adam: How did the actors or the members of the reality TV show casts, how did they feel about this scripting of the TV show?Sarah: They seem to be fine with it because they, you know, signed all the contracts and the things to be on the show. So they don't really mind it.Adam: Wow. That's really interesting.

Sarah: So Adam, how old were you when you got your first job?Adam: I was 16 but actually my dad tried to get me to work at Baskin & Robbins when I was 15. And the manager wouldn't hire me because I was under legal working age in the States.Adam: How old are you when you first started working?Sarah: I started working when I was 14. I'm from North Carolina in the States. And there, you are legally able to work at the age of 14. So I worked as a DJ. My father owns a radio station, so I became a DJ at age 14.Adam: That's amazing. What sort of things did you talk about as a DJ?Sarah: It was mainly a programming situation, an AM radio station. So I don't have to talk much. It was mainly just operating the board. And a few commercials, and weather and things like that I would have to talk. But mostly, it was just pressing buttons.Adam: Did you play any music?Sarah: Yeah. Some music, depending on the time of day.Adam: Could you play what you wanted or did you have to follow a script?Sarah: No, you have a follow a format pretty much, so. So what's been the most interesting or exciting job you've ever had?Adam: I worked at an airport fueling airplanes when I was in college. And I drove a fuel truck around the tarmac and fueled airplanes, big commercial airplanes like 747s and also small private prop planes just with two passengers. That was a really interesting, interesting job.Sarah: It sounds kind of slightly dangerous or maybe a lot of responsibility. Was it?Adam: Yeah. If you – because you're driving this large truck around very, very expensive planes, so a lot of responsibility. It wasn't so much dangerous, I don't think. But yeah, it was definitely – if you made an error or had an accident, it would be a big accident.It was – the hours were not very good. I had to wake up at 4:00 in the morning to go to the airport at 5:00. And when I went home I would smell just of gasoline. But it was quite an interesting and kind of exciting job.Sarah: Nice.Adam: Yeah. How about you? What's your most interesting job?Sarah: Most interesting, I guess, for me was I was hired by a car company one time to go and do like test drive demonstrations on like different cities around the US. And I had to, like, ride around with people doing the test drive and tell them about the vehicles, which was interesting because I really know nothing about cars. So I had to memorize a lot of information. But it was fun getting to go to different cities in the US every weekend.Adam: Wow, cool. What car company did you do this for?Sarah: I did that for Kia but I've also worked for Hummer, and Ferrari and BMW.Adam: Wow. That's amazing. Were those separate contracts for Ferrari, Hummer and BMW?Sarah: Yeah. For those, I didn't do test drives. I was, what's called a promotional model or a brand ambassador. So the companies hire local people when they're an event in a certain area. And most of the time, you're just getting people to fill out surveys or do some kind of prize drawing. But in the case of Kia, it was actually doing test drives.Adam: Did you get any free merchandise or vehicles from any of these?Sarah: I wish I got a free vehicle, but no, just the t-shirt or whatever outfit you had to wear for the promotion.Adam: Yeah, that's sounds really interesting. I love cars, so I'd love to do something like that.

Sarah: So Adam, how old were you when you got your first job?Adam: I was 16 but actually my dad tried to get me to work at Baskin & Robbins when I was 15. And the manager wouldn't hire me because I was under legal working age in the States.Adam: How old are you when you first started working?Sarah: I started working when I was 14. I'm from North Carolina in the States. And there, you are legally able to work at the age of 14. So I worked as a DJ. My father owns a radio station, so I became a DJ at age 14.Adam: That's amazing. What sort of things did you talk about as a DJ?Sarah: It was mainly a programming situation, an AM radio station. So I don't have to talk much. It was mainly just operating the board. And a few commercials, and weather and things like that I would have to talk. But mostly, it was just pressing buttons.Adam: Did you play any music?Sarah: Yeah. Some music, depending on the time of day.Adam: Could you play what you wanted or did you have to follow a script?Sarah: No, you have a follow a format pretty much, so. So what's been the most interesting or exciting job you've ever had?Adam: I worked at an airport fueling airplanes when I was in college. And I drove a fuel truck around the tarmac and fueled airplanes, big commercial airplanes like 747s and also small private prop planes just with two passengers. That was a really interesting, interesting job.Sarah: It sounds kind of slightly dangerous or maybe a lot of responsibility. Was it?Adam: Yeah. If you – because you're driving this large truck around very, very expensive planes, so a lot of responsibility. It wasn't so much dangerous, I don't think. But yeah, it was definitely – if you made an error or had an accident, it would be a big accident.It was – the hours were not very good. I had to wake up at 4:00 in the morning to go to the airport at 5:00. And when I went home I would smell just of gasoline. But it was quite an interesting and kind of exciting job.Sarah: Nice.Adam: Yeah. How about you? What's your most interesting job?Sarah: Most interesting, I guess, for me was I was hired by a car company one time to go and do like test drive demonstrations on like different cities around the US. And I had to, like, ride around with people doing the test drive and tell them about the vehicles, which was interesting because I really know nothing about cars. So I had to memorize a lot of information. But it was fun getting to go to different cities in the US every weekend.Adam: Wow, cool. What car company did you do this for?Sarah: I did that for Kia but I've also worked for Hummer, and Ferrari and BMW.Adam: Wow. That's amazing. Were those separate contracts for Ferrari, Hummer and BMW?Sarah: Yeah. For those, I didn't do test drives. I was, what's called a promotional model or a brand ambassador. So the companies hire local people when they're an event in a certain area. And most of the time, you're just getting people to fill out surveys or do some kind of prize drawing. But in the case of Kia, it was actually doing test drives.Adam: Did you get any free merchandise or vehicles from any of these?Sarah: I wish I got a free vehicle, but no, just the t-shirt or whatever outfit you had to wear for the promotion.Adam: Yeah, that's sounds really interesting. I love cars, so I'd love to do something like that.

Sarah: So Adam, how old were you when you got your first job?Adam: I was 16 but actually my dad tried to get me to work at Baskin & Robbins when I was 15. And the manager wouldn't hire me because I was under legal working age in the States.Adam: How old are you when you first started working?Sarah: I started working when I was 14. I'm from North Carolina in the States. And there, you are legally able to work at the age of 14. So I worked as a DJ. My father owns a radio station, so I became a DJ at age 14.Adam: That's amazing. What sort of things did you talk about as a DJ?Sarah: It was mainly a programming situation, an AM radio station. So I don't have to talk much. It was mainly just operating the board. And a few commercials, and weather and things like that I would have to talk. But mostly, it was just pressing buttons.Adam: Did you play any music?Sarah: Yeah. Some music, depending on the time of day.Adam: Could you play what you wanted or did you have to follow a script?Sarah: No, you have a follow a format pretty much, so. So what's been the most interesting or exciting job you've ever had?Adam: I worked at an airport fueling airplanes when I was in college. And I drove a fuel truck around the tarmac and fueled airplanes, big commercial airplanes like 747s and also small private prop planes just with two passengers. That was a really interesting, interesting job.Sarah: It sounds kind of slightly dangerous or maybe a lot of responsibility. Was it?Adam: Yeah. If you – because you're driving this large truck around very, very expensive planes, so a lot of responsibility. It wasn't so much dangerous, I don't think. But yeah, it was definitely – if you made an error or had an accident, it would be a big accident.It was – the hours were not very good. I had to wake up at 4:00 in the morning to go to the airport at 5:00. And when I went home I would smell just of gasoline. But it was quite an interesting and kind of exciting job.Sarah: Nice.Adam: Yeah. How about you? What's your most interesting job?Sarah: Most interesting, I guess, for me was I was hired by a car company one time to go and do like test drive demonstrations on like different cities around the US. And I had to, like, ride around with people doing the test drive and tell them about the vehicles, which was interesting because I really know nothing about cars. So I had to memorize a lot of information. But it was fun getting to go to different cities in the US every weekend.Adam: Wow, cool. What car company did you do this for?Sarah: I did that for Kia but I've also worked for Hummer, and Ferrari and BMW.Adam: Wow. That's amazing. Were those separate contracts for Ferrari, Hummer and BMW?Sarah: Yeah. For those, I didn't do test drives. I was, what's called a promotional model or a brand ambassador. So the companies hire local people when they're an event in a certain area. And most of the time, you're just getting people to fill out surveys or do some kind of prize drawing. But in the case of Kia, it was actually doing test drives.Adam: Did you get any free merchandise or vehicles from any of these?Sarah: I wish I got a free vehicle, but no, just the t-shirt or whatever outfit you had to wear for the promotion.Adam: Yeah, that's sounds really interesting. I love cars, so I'd love to do something like that.

John: So we've been talking about women's roles in society. And are you a stay-at-home momor a working mom?Sarah: Well, I guess I'm both. Right now, I'm on maternity leave and I'm on month six of maternity leave.John: What does that mean?Sarah: So maternity leave is when you have a job but then you become pregnant or you're going to have a baby, maybe adopt, too. So you're going to have a baby, and so you take time off of work to stay home with the new baby.John: Oh, I see. Do you still get paid?Sarah: I do. I get about half of my wage. So I do still get paid and I'm very grateful for that. So I've been at home with the new baby for six months. And I'm going to go back to work next month.John: Oh. What will happen with the baby?Sarah: So I have two kids actually. I have a toddler and a baby. And both of them will go to daycare during the day.John: I see.Sarah: So I signed up for the daycare before the baby was even born. It's really hard to find good daycare that you can afford, that's near your house. So you have to start planning before the baby is even born if you're the type of person who wants to go back to work.John: I see. I don't think many men worry about getting good daycare for their children…Sarah: No.John: When they think about their jobs.Sarah: No. Even when there's a family, and the mother and father both work, still it's the mother that has to do everything with the kids, usually. Usually, the mom has to for example, get the bag ready for the kids to take to daycare. They have to arrange the daycare. They have – the daycare has the mother's phone number, usually.And so, the mom has to do a lot of extra work even though mom and dad both have full time jobs.John: I see. Are you saying that things should be different?Sarah: Yes. I think things should be different. I'm so lucky my husband agrees with me. And my husband, he drops the kids off at daycare and he picks them up and he does the laundry and the dishes. And it helps me to be – and it helps me focus on my career so that I can stay late at work if I need to. I can go to an extra meeting on a weekend. And it makes me feel more fulfilled that it's not my husband's job that comes first.A lot of times women make less money than men and they put their job second to their husband. And it's not equal, and it's not fair. And so, I think that people should work on making things more equal.John: Well, I agree with you.Sarah: Thank you.

John: So we've been talking about women's roles in society. And are you a stay-at-home momor a working mom?Sarah: Well, I guess I'm both. Right now, I'm on maternity leave and I'm on month six of maternity leave.John: What does that mean?Sarah: So maternity leave is when you have a job but then you become pregnant or you're going to have a baby, maybe adopt, too. So you're going to have a baby, and so you take time off of work to stay home with the new baby.John: Oh, I see. Do you still get paid?Sarah: I do. I get about half of my wage. So I do still get paid and I'm very grateful for that. So I've been at home with the new baby for six months. And I'm going to go back to work next month.John: Oh. What will happen with the baby?Sarah: So I have two kids actually. I have a toddler and a baby. And both of them will go to daycare during the day.John: I see.Sarah: So I signed up for the daycare before the baby was even born. It's really hard to find good daycare that you can afford, that's near your house. So you have to start planning before the baby is even born if you're the type of person who wants to go back to work.John: I see. I don't think many men worry about getting good daycare for their children…Sarah: No.John: When they think about their jobs.Sarah: No. Even when there's a family, and the mother and father both work, still it's the mother that has to do everything with the kids, usually. Usually, the mom has to for example, get the bag ready for the kids to take to daycare. They have to arrange the daycare. They have – the daycare has the mother's phone number, usually.And so, the mom has to do a lot of extra work even though mom and dad both have full time jobs.John: I see. Are you saying that things should be different?Sarah: Yes. I think things should be different. I'm so lucky my husband agrees with me. And my husband, he drops the kids off at daycare and he picks them up and he does the laundry and the dishes. And it helps me to be – and it helps me focus on my career so that I can stay late at work if I need to. I can go to an extra meeting on a weekend. And it makes me feel more fulfilled that it's not my husband's job that comes first.A lot of times women make less money than men and they put their job second to their husband. And it's not equal, and it's not fair. And so, I think that people should work on making things more equal.John: Well, I agree with you.Sarah: Thank you.

John: So we've been talking about women's roles in society. And are you a stay-at-home momor a working mom?Sarah: Well, I guess I'm both. Right now, I'm on maternity leave and I'm on month six of maternity leave.John: What does that mean?Sarah: So maternity leave is when you have a job but then you become pregnant or you're going to have a baby, maybe adopt, too. So you're going to have a baby, and so you take time off of work to stay home with the new baby.John: Oh, I see. Do you still get paid?Sarah: I do. I get about half of my wage. So I do still get paid and I'm very grateful for that. So I've been at home with the new baby for six months. And I'm going to go back to work next month.John: Oh. What will happen with the baby?Sarah: So I have two kids actually. I have a toddler and a baby. And both of them will go to daycare during the day.John: I see.Sarah: So I signed up for the daycare before the baby was even born. It's really hard to find good daycare that you can afford, that's near your house. So you have to start planning before the baby is even born if you're the type of person who wants to go back to work.John: I see. I don't think many men worry about getting good daycare for their children…Sarah: No.John: When they think about their jobs.Sarah: No. Even when there's a family, and the mother and father both work, still it's the mother that has to do everything with the kids, usually. Usually, the mom has to for example, get the bag ready for the kids to take to daycare. They have to arrange the daycare. They have – the daycare has the mother's phone number, usually.And so, the mom has to do a lot of extra work even though mom and dad both have full time jobs.John: I see. Are you saying that things should be different?Sarah: Yes. I think things should be different. I'm so lucky my husband agrees with me. And my husband, he drops the kids off at daycare and he picks them up and he does the laundry and the dishes. And it helps me to be – and it helps me focus on my career so that I can stay late at work if I need to. I can go to an extra meeting on a weekend. And it makes me feel more fulfilled that it's not my husband's job that comes first.A lot of times women make less money than men and they put their job second to their husband. And it's not equal, and it's not fair. And so, I think that people should work on making things more equal.John: Well, I agree with you.Sarah: Thank you.

John: So Sarah, I was wondering, what kind of sports do you like to play?Sarah: Well, I love riding horses. And actually, when I was in college, I took a lot of classes about horseback riding. So I can do all sorts of sports on horseback.John: Wow! That's amazing. Don't you think riding horses is scary?Sarah: I think, it's part of the fun. For example, I used to be in the rodeo and I did a sport called saddle bronc riding. And the way you do this is they put the saddle on the horse and then they let the horse just go crazy. And the horse runs, and bucks, and tries to get you off, and you try to stay on. And it's really scary but it's also really exciting.John: Wow! That's what's called a bucking bronco, right?Sarah: Yeah. And it's really hard to stay on. In fact, you win if you can stay on 8 seconds.John: Oh, that doesn't seem very long.Sarah: It's really, really long. When I was – it's really long when you're on the horse. My first time, I only stayed on about 4 seconds and then I fell off in the middle of ring and I got knocked out.John: Whoa!Sarah: Yeah. And the rest – yeah, and I had a big black eye for about two months.John: Wow! From falling off a horse. That's why it seems scary. Isn't it really dangerous?Sarah: It is. It is really dangerous. And they don't make you wear helmet or any safety gear. I didn't wear a helmet my first time. I think it was pretty stupid.You start – so the horse starts in a metal cage. So the horse can't move. And then you sit on top of the horse, on the horse's back in the saddle. And then you say, I'm ready and they open the door. And the horse explodes and just starts jumping, and turning and twisting. And the horse did about three or four jumps and I fell off.John: Wow! How many seconds did you make it?Sarah: Three.John: Three?Sarah: Probably about 3 seconds.John: So you would have to do that more than twice as long to win.Sarah: Yeah. I got better at it, but I never could stay on for 8 seconds.John: Did you try any other rodeo events?Sarah: Yeah. I tried to do calf roping.John: What's that?Sarah: This is a sport where you have your horse and your horse is trained. It's not the wild horse from before. And there's a calf, and you try to throw your rope so that you catch the calf. And a calf is a baby cow.John: Wow! And so, what do you have to do if you get your rope around the cow?Sarah: Then you have to run up to the cow and you have to tie the cow's legs together. And when you finish tying the cow's legs together, the timer stops. So you want to do it as fast as you can.John: That sounds really fun. And it doesn't sound as dangerous as the saddle bronc competition.Sarah: No. It's not as dangerous. But after a while, I started to feel bad for the baby cow.John: I see.Sarah: It's just he's a small little baby and he's really scared, and he's trying to run away. And I started to feel bad about catching him with the rope and tying him up. So I stopped doing it.

John: So Sarah, I was wondering, what kind of sports do you like to play?Sarah: Well, I love riding horses. And actually, when I was in college, I took a lot of classes about horseback riding. So I can do all sorts of sports on horseback.John: Wow! That's amazing. Don't you think riding horses is scary?Sarah: I think, it's part of the fun. For example, I used to be in the rodeo and I did a sport called saddle bronc riding. And the way you do this is they put the saddle on the horse and then they let the horse just go crazy. And the horse runs, and bucks, and tries to get you off, and you try to stay on. And it's really scary but it's also really exciting.John: Wow! That's what's called a bucking bronco, right?Sarah: Yeah. And it's really hard to stay on. In fact, you win if you can stay on 8 seconds.John: Oh, that doesn't seem very long.Sarah: It's really, really long. When I was – it's really long when you're on the horse. My first time, I only stayed on about 4 seconds and then I fell off in the middle of ring and I got knocked out.John: Whoa!Sarah: Yeah. And the rest – yeah, and I had a big black eye for about two months.John: Wow! From falling off a horse. That's why it seems scary. Isn't it really dangerous?Sarah: It is. It is really dangerous. And they don't make you wear helmet or any safety gear. I didn't wear a helmet my first time. I think it was pretty stupid.You start – so the horse starts in a metal cage. So the horse can't move. And then you sit on top of the horse, on the horse's back in the saddle. And then you say, I'm ready and they open the door. And the horse explodes and just starts jumping, and turning and twisting. And the horse did about three or four jumps and I fell off.John: Wow! How many seconds did you make it?Sarah: Three.John: Three?Sarah: Probably about 3 seconds.John: So you would have to do that more than twice as long to win.Sarah: Yeah. I got better at it, but I never could stay on for 8 seconds.John: Did you try any other rodeo events?Sarah: Yeah. I tried to do calf roping.John: What's that?Sarah: This is a sport where you have your horse and your horse is trained. It's not the wild horse from before. And there's a calf, and you try to throw your rope so that you catch the calf. And a calf is a baby cow.John: Wow! And so, what do you have to do if you get your rope around the cow?Sarah: Then you have to run up to the cow and you have to tie the cow's legs together. And when you finish tying the cow's legs together, the timer stops. So you want to do it as fast as you can.John: That sounds really fun. And it doesn't sound as dangerous as the saddle bronc competition.Sarah: No. It's not as dangerous. But after a while, I started to feel bad for the baby cow.John: I see.Sarah: It's just he's a small little baby and he's really scared, and he's trying to run away. And I started to feel bad about catching him with the rope and tying him up. So I stopped doing it.

John: So Sarah, I was wondering, what kind of sports do you like to play?Sarah: Well, I love riding horses. And actually, when I was in college, I took a lot of classes about horseback riding. So I can do all sorts of sports on horseback.John: Wow! That's amazing. Don't you think riding horses is scary?Sarah: I think, it's part of the fun. For example, I used to be in the rodeo and I did a sport called saddle bronc riding. And the way you do this is they put the saddle on the horse and then they let the horse just go crazy. And the horse runs, and bucks, and tries to get you off, and you try to stay on. And it's really scary but it's also really exciting.John: Wow! That's what's called a bucking bronco, right?Sarah: Yeah. And it's really hard to stay on. In fact, you win if you can stay on 8 seconds.John: Oh, that doesn't seem very long.Sarah: It's really, really long. When I was – it's really long when you're on the horse. My first time, I only stayed on about 4 seconds and then I fell off in the middle of ring and I got knocked out.John: Whoa!Sarah: Yeah. And the rest – yeah, and I had a big black eye for about two months.John: Wow! From falling off a horse. That's why it seems scary. Isn't it really dangerous?Sarah: It is. It is really dangerous. And they don't make you wear helmet or any safety gear. I didn't wear a helmet my first time. I think it was pretty stupid.You start – so the horse starts in a metal cage. So the horse can't move. And then you sit on top of the horse, on the horse's back in the saddle. And then you say, I'm ready and they open the door. And the horse explodes and just starts jumping, and turning and twisting. And the horse did about three or four jumps and I fell off.John: Wow! How many seconds did you make it?Sarah: Three.John: Three?Sarah: Probably about 3 seconds.John: So you would have to do that more than twice as long to win.Sarah: Yeah. I got better at it, but I never could stay on for 8 seconds.John: Did you try any other rodeo events?Sarah: Yeah. I tried to do calf roping.John: What's that?Sarah: This is a sport where you have your horse and your horse is trained. It's not the wild horse from before. And there's a calf, and you try to throw your rope so that you catch the calf. And a calf is a baby cow.John: Wow! And so, what do you have to do if you get your rope around the cow?Sarah: Then you have to run up to the cow and you have to tie the cow's legs together. And when you finish tying the cow's legs together, the timer stops. So you want to do it as fast as you can.John: That sounds really fun. And it doesn't sound as dangerous as the saddle bronc competition.Sarah: No. It's not as dangerous. But after a while, I started to feel bad for the baby cow.John: I see.Sarah: It's just he's a small little baby and he's really scared, and he's trying to run away. And I started to feel bad about catching him with the rope and tying him up. So I stopped doing it.

Sarah: So do you dream a lot? Do you remember your dreams?Todd: I usually do. Although, I have to admit, now that I'm older, I don't dream so much. It's pretty rare that I have a dream. But I will have dreams if I'm really stressed or if I'm really sick. So usually, every time I get sick, I notice I'm sick because I have a dream. And I'll wake up in the middle of the night from some crazy dream and then I'll notice, oh wow, I'm sick.So yeah, that's about it.Sarah: That's very interesting.Todd: Yeah. Although, you know, when I was younger, I used to have all these dreams related to work. I guess they were stress-related. And the craziest dream was, I was a waiter at a very fast-paced restaurant, and it was very stressful. And you had to wait on about 10 tables, and people would come in and you have to get their food fast. And if you didn't, you'd get yelled at by the boss or the customers would be upset.So I used to have this dream – and this is when I was in college, that I would be sleeping and there would be a table in my room and the customers would be sitting there watching me sleep, and they would be furious because I wasn't bringing their food. I was like just sleeping in the bed right next to their table. And it was the same nightmare I had for – like again and again and again. It was crazy.Sarah: That's really interesting. And kind of funny, too.Todd: Yeah, I know. And it's weird how you have the same recurring dream. I used to have another dream, a nightmare when I was young. And it would be – I was riding a bicycle up like a mountain and the mountain was – like had a path that just kept going around and around the mountain. And you had to be really careful or else your bike would fall off the cliff. And then, my bike of course would go off the cliff and I would fall, fall, fall and you would wake up right before you hit the ground.I had that dream many, many times when I was a little kid.Sarah: Wow.Todd: Yeah.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: Do you ever have nightmares or any dreams like that?Sarah: Yeah. I don't dream very often but I have this one reoccurring dream also where I am in school and it's at the end of the semester and I suddenly realized that there's one class that I haven't been going to the entire semester and I'm going to fail it. So I panic and I'm running around like trying to find my professor to like try to figure out what I need to do or what I need to study for the final exam so that I don't fail this class.But what's really interesting about this dream is I found out a few years ago that my father has the same reoccurring dream.Todd: Wow. You know, this is going to sound crazy. I've had that dream, too. I've had a dream of like I registered for a course in college and I never went to the course, and I'm going to get an F. And I don't even remember when I registered or where the class is but I didn't finish the class. Is that the same dream?Sarah: Exact same dream.Todd: Wow. I wonder what it means.Sarah: Me too.Todd: Maybe there's somebody out there that really knows what it means and they're like, "Uh-oh, those two people are doomed."Sarah: There must be a lot of people with that dream.Todd: Yeah. And maybe that's it, like there's certain structures. Like I know that the bike dream that I have about falling off the cliff, I've heard that many people have that. Yeah.Have you ever heard about the dream – I had it a couple of times, a dream where you're in class and then you suddenly notice that you don't have any clothes on and you're afraid that people are going to notice you don't have any clothes on?Sarah: No, I've never had that one.Todd: Yeah. That was one when I was really, really little, but yeah.Sarah: I've heard that some people – a lot of people have dreams about their teeth falling out and that this means that like they're afraid of losing something in their life.Todd: Really?Sarah: Something that's really important to them.Todd: Oh wow. So if you're teeth are falling, you're going to lose something.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: Wow.Sarah: Or you're afraid of losing something because most people, their teeth are really important to them.Todd: Yeah. Interesting. Well, I don't have any nightmares anymore. It's pretty rare. How about you?Sarah: Yeah. Same as me. Thank goodness.Todd: Yeah. Maybe it's just a young thing.Sarah: Maybe.

Sarah: So do you dream a lot? Do you remember your dreams?Todd: I usually do. Although, I have to admit, now that I'm older, I don't dream so much. It's pretty rare that I have a dream. But I will have dreams if I'm really stressed or if I'm really sick. So usually, every time I get sick, I notice I'm sick because I have a dream. And I'll wake up in the middle of the night from some crazy dream and then I'll notice, oh wow, I'm sick.So yeah, that's about it.Sarah: That's very interesting.Todd: Yeah. Although, you know, when I was younger, I used to have all these dreams related to work. I guess they were stress-related. And the craziest dream was, I was a waiter at a very fast-paced restaurant, and it was very stressful. And you had to wait on about 10 tables, and people would come in and you have to get their food fast. And if you didn't, you'd get yelled at by the boss or the customers would be upset.So I used to have this dream – and this is when I was in college, that I would be sleeping and there would be a table in my room and the customers would be sitting there watching me sleep, and they would be furious because I wasn't bringing their food. I was like just sleeping in the bed right next to their table. And it was the same nightmare I had for – like again and again and again. It was crazy.Sarah: That's really interesting. And kind of funny, too.Todd: Yeah, I know. And it's weird how you have the same recurring dream. I used to have another dream, a nightmare when I was young. And it would be – I was riding a bicycle up like a mountain and the mountain was – like had a path that just kept going around and around the mountain. And you had to be really careful or else your bike would fall off the cliff. And then, my bike of course would go off the cliff and I would fall, fall, fall and you would wake up right before you hit the ground.I had that dream many, many times when I was a little kid.Sarah: Wow.Todd: Yeah.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: Do you ever have nightmares or any dreams like that?Sarah: Yeah. I don't dream very often but I have this one reoccurring dream also where I am in school and it's at the end of the semester and I suddenly realized that there's one class that I haven't been going to the entire semester and I'm going to fail it. So I panic and I'm running around like trying to find my professor to like try to figure out what I need to do or what I need to study for the final exam so that I don't fail this class.But what's really interesting about this dream is I found out a few years ago that my father has the same reoccurring dream.Todd: Wow. You know, this is going to sound crazy. I've had that dream, too. I've had a dream of like I registered for a course in college and I never went to the course, and I'm going to get an F. And I don't even remember when I registered or where the class is but I didn't finish the class. Is that the same dream?Sarah: Exact same dream.Todd: Wow. I wonder what it means.Sarah: Me too.Todd: Maybe there's somebody out there that really knows what it means and they're like, "Uh-oh, those two people are doomed."Sarah: There must be a lot of people with that dream.Todd: Yeah. And maybe that's it, like there's certain structures. Like I know that the bike dream that I have about falling off the cliff, I've heard that many people have that. Yeah.Have you ever heard about the dream – I had it a couple of times, a dream where you're in class and then you suddenly notice that you don't have any clothes on and you're afraid that people are going to notice you don't have any clothes on?Sarah: No, I've never had that one.Todd: Yeah. That was one when I was really, really little, but yeah.Sarah: I've heard that some people – a lot of people have dreams about their teeth falling out and that this means that like they're afraid of losing something in their life.Todd: Really?Sarah: Something that's really important to them.Todd: Oh wow. So if you're teeth are falling, you're going to lose something.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: Wow.Sarah: Or you're afraid of losing something because most people, their teeth are really important to them.Todd: Yeah. Interesting. Well, I don't have any nightmares anymore. It's pretty rare. How about you?Sarah: Yeah. Same as me. Thank goodness.Todd: Yeah. Maybe it's just a young thing.Sarah: Maybe.

Sarah: So do you dream a lot? Do you remember your dreams?Todd: I usually do. Although, I have to admit, now that I'm older, I don't dream so much. It's pretty rare that I have a dream. But I will have dreams if I'm really stressed or if I'm really sick. So usually, every time I get sick, I notice I'm sick because I have a dream. And I'll wake up in the middle of the night from some crazy dream and then I'll notice, oh wow, I'm sick.So yeah, that's about it.Sarah: That's very interesting.Todd: Yeah. Although, you know, when I was younger, I used to have all these dreams related to work. I guess they were stress-related. And the craziest dream was, I was a waiter at a very fast-paced restaurant, and it was very stressful. And you had to wait on about 10 tables, and people would come in and you have to get their food fast. And if you didn't, you'd get yelled at by the boss or the customers would be upset.So I used to have this dream – and this is when I was in college, that I would be sleeping and there would be a table in my room and the customers would be sitting there watching me sleep, and they would be furious because I wasn't bringing their food. I was like just sleeping in the bed right next to their table. And it was the same nightmare I had for – like again and again and again. It was crazy.Sarah: That's really interesting. And kind of funny, too.Todd: Yeah, I know. And it's weird how you have the same recurring dream. I used to have another dream, a nightmare when I was young. And it would be – I was riding a bicycle up like a mountain and the mountain was – like had a path that just kept going around and around the mountain. And you had to be really careful or else your bike would fall off the cliff. And then, my bike of course would go off the cliff and I would fall, fall, fall and you would wake up right before you hit the ground.I had that dream many, many times when I was a little kid.Sarah: Wow.Todd: Yeah.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: Do you ever have nightmares or any dreams like that?Sarah: Yeah. I don't dream very often but I have this one reoccurring dream also where I am in school and it's at the end of the semester and I suddenly realized that there's one class that I haven't been going to the entire semester and I'm going to fail it. So I panic and I'm running around like trying to find my professor to like try to figure out what I need to do or what I need to study for the final exam so that I don't fail this class.But what's really interesting about this dream is I found out a few years ago that my father has the same reoccurring dream.Todd: Wow. You know, this is going to sound crazy. I've had that dream, too. I've had a dream of like I registered for a course in college and I never went to the course, and I'm going to get an F. And I don't even remember when I registered or where the class is but I didn't finish the class. Is that the same dream?Sarah: Exact same dream.Todd: Wow. I wonder what it means.Sarah: Me too.Todd: Maybe there's somebody out there that really knows what it means and they're like, "Uh-oh, those two people are doomed."Sarah: There must be a lot of people with that dream.Todd: Yeah. And maybe that's it, like there's certain structures. Like I know that the bike dream that I have about falling off the cliff, I've heard that many people have that. Yeah.Have you ever heard about the dream – I had it a couple of times, a dream where you're in class and then you suddenly notice that you don't have any clothes on and you're afraid that people are going to notice you don't have any clothes on?Sarah: No, I've never had that one.Todd: Yeah. That was one when I was really, really little, but yeah.Sarah: I've heard that some people – a lot of people have dreams about their teeth falling out and that this means that like they're afraid of losing something in their life.Todd: Really?Sarah: Something that's really important to them.Todd: Oh wow. So if you're teeth are falling, you're going to lose something.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: Wow.Sarah: Or you're afraid of losing something because most people, their teeth are really important to them.Todd: Yeah. Interesting. Well, I don't have any nightmares anymore. It's pretty rare. How about you?Sarah: Yeah. Same as me. Thank goodness.Todd: Yeah. Maybe it's just a young thing.Sarah: Maybe.

Todd: So Sarah, let's talk about sleep. How many hours of sleep do you usually get every night?Sarah: Usually, at least eight. It depends on how late I stay up but usually about eight hours, I try to get every night.Todd: And you are pretty consistent, like even on the weekends, you get eight hours.Sarah: Yes. Even on the weekends. Sleep is very important for me to feel normal and energetic.Todd: Now, do you need an alarm clock to wake you up or you just wake up naturally everyday?Sarah: I definitely have to have an alarm clock. Even though I wake up very easily, I don't wake up at a routine time easily. So I usually set two alarms and that will usually get me up.Todd: Oh wow. I actually have this kind of weird mental ability. I thought that everybody can do this but I found out it's not the case, but I can wake up exactly at the minute I want, any time. So like, if I have to get up at 5:43, before I go to bed, I can say, "Okay. Get up at 5:43." And I'll wake up at 5:43, exactly.Sarah: That's amazing.Todd: Yeah. I don't know how – I guess your brain just can keep time. When I tell people this, sometimes they think, "Oh come on, that's not true." But really, ever since I was a kid I could just tell myself what time I want to wake up and I'll wake up exactly at that time.Sarah: That's really quite amazing. I wish it was that way for me, but it's not.Todd: Yeah. You know what's weird – because I don't use alarm clocks. And I can't – like an alarm clock – the idea actually, I can't have a deep sleep if I know that it's going to ring and wake up, like it's going to jolt. To me an alarm clock is like somebody throwing cold water on you, you know. So yeah, I don't use alarm clocks at all.Sarah: Yeah. I'm always paranoid about being late so that's why I set two just in case like one doesn't go off. But I can sleep anytime of the day. Like it really doesn't matter what type of day, it's very easy for me to fall asleep for as long as whenever. So that's why I have to have an alarm clock because I could sleep 12 or 14 hours and not wake up.Todd: Wow. That's like you do like sleep.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: So do you take naps?Sarah: No, because then I feel really like groggy and really like irritable if I take naps because I just want to sleep longer than that amount of time. So I don't take naps.Todd: Like can you sleep with the light on?Sarah: Yes.Todd: Really?Sarah: Yes.Todd: Yeah, I can't. Actually, that's why I always wake up so early. As soon the light comes through the window, I wake up. I can't sleep if it's not dark.Sarah: I can sleep in any situation; light, noise, sitting up. It doesn't matter. I can sleep.Todd: Oh wow. So you're a deep sleeper.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: I'm so jealous. Like just a little bit of noise or a little bit of light and I can't sleep. And actually, I probably only get an average six hours a night. But I do sometimes take naps.Sarah: Oh okay. How long do you usually nap for?Todd: Usually an hour. I found out if I go over an hour then that's the danger zone because then if you sleep like two or three hours, then you wake up and you're just groggy for the whole day. Like you can't – it's like you've been drugged, you know. So yeah. Forty-five-minute nap is about it.Sarah: Yeah. When you were a child, did your parents make you take naps?Todd: They did. And oddly enough, when I was a kid though, I couldn't sleep, like, you would cry, "I don't want to take a nap" you know. And you'd be like you conk out. But yeah, I do remember.Do you remember having to take naps in school?Sarah: I didn't go to school actually. I was homeschooled.Todd: Oh really.Sarah: I remember taking naps when I was really little but beyond that and like school-age, I never had to.Todd: Oh wow. Anyway, all these talks are making me tired. I think I'm ready for a nap.Sarah: Sounds good.

Todd: So Sarah, let's talk about sleep. How many hours of sleep do you usually get every night?Sarah: Usually, at least eight. It depends on how late I stay up but usually about eight hours, I try to get every night.Todd: And you are pretty consistent, like even on the weekends, you get eight hours.Sarah: Yes. Even on the weekends. Sleep is very important for me to feel normal and energetic.Todd: Now, do you need an alarm clock to wake you up or you just wake up naturally everyday?Sarah: I definitely have to have an alarm clock. Even though I wake up very easily, I don't wake up at a routine time easily. So I usually set two alarms and that will usually get me up.Todd: Oh wow. I actually have this kind of weird mental ability. I thought that everybody can do this but I found out it's not the case, but I can wake up exactly at the minute I want, any time. So like, if I have to get up at 5:43, before I go to bed, I can say, "Okay. Get up at 5:43." And I'll wake up at 5:43, exactly.Sarah: That's amazing.Todd: Yeah. I don't know how – I guess your brain just can keep time. When I tell people this, sometimes they think, "Oh come on, that's not true." But really, ever since I was a kid I could just tell myself what time I want to wake up and I'll wake up exactly at that time.Sarah: That's really quite amazing. I wish it was that way for me, but it's not.Todd: Yeah. You know what's weird – because I don't use alarm clocks. And I can't – like an alarm clock – the idea actually, I can't have a deep sleep if I know that it's going to ring and wake up, like it's going to jolt. To me an alarm clock is like somebody throwing cold water on you, you know. So yeah, I don't use alarm clocks at all.Sarah: Yeah. I'm always paranoid about being late so that's why I set two just in case like one doesn't go off. But I can sleep anytime of the day. Like it really doesn't matter what type of day, it's very easy for me to fall asleep for as long as whenever. So that's why I have to have an alarm clock because I could sleep 12 or 14 hours and not wake up.Todd: Wow. That's like you do like sleep.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: So do you take naps?Sarah: No, because then I feel really like groggy and really like irritable if I take naps because I just want to sleep longer than that amount of time. So I don't take naps.Todd: Like can you sleep with the light on?Sarah: Yes.Todd: Really?Sarah: Yes.Todd: Yeah, I can't. Actually, that's why I always wake up so early. As soon the light comes through the window, I wake up. I can't sleep if it's not dark.Sarah: I can sleep in any situation; light, noise, sitting up. It doesn't matter. I can sleep.Todd: Oh wow. So you're a deep sleeper.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: I'm so jealous. Like just a little bit of noise or a little bit of light and I can't sleep. And actually, I probably only get an average six hours a night. But I do sometimes take naps.Sarah: Oh okay. How long do you usually nap for?Todd: Usually an hour. I found out if I go over an hour then that's the danger zone because then if you sleep like two or three hours, then you wake up and you're just groggy for the whole day. Like you can't – it's like you've been drugged, you know. So yeah. Forty-five-minute nap is about it.Sarah: Yeah. When you were a child, did your parents make you take naps?Todd: They did. And oddly enough, when I was a kid though, I couldn't sleep, like, you would cry, "I don't want to take a nap" you know. And you'd be like you conk out. But yeah, I do remember.Do you remember having to take naps in school?Sarah: I didn't go to school actually. I was homeschooled.Todd: Oh really.Sarah: I remember taking naps when I was really little but beyond that and like school-age, I never had to.Todd: Oh wow. Anyway, all these talks are making me tired. I think I'm ready for a nap.Sarah: Sounds good.

Todd: So Sarah, let's talk about sleep. How many hours of sleep do you usually get every night?Sarah: Usually, at least eight. It depends on how late I stay up but usually about eight hours, I try to get every night.Todd: And you are pretty consistent, like even on the weekends, you get eight hours.Sarah: Yes. Even on the weekends. Sleep is very important for me to feel normal and energetic.Todd: Now, do you need an alarm clock to wake you up or you just wake up naturally everyday?Sarah: I definitely have to have an alarm clock. Even though I wake up very easily, I don't wake up at a routine time easily. So I usually set two alarms and that will usually get me up.Todd: Oh wow. I actually have this kind of weird mental ability. I thought that everybody can do this but I found out it's not the case, but I can wake up exactly at the minute I want, any time. So like, if I have to get up at 5:43, before I go to bed, I can say, "Okay. Get up at 5:43." And I'll wake up at 5:43, exactly.Sarah: That's amazing.Todd: Yeah. I don't know how – I guess your brain just can keep time. When I tell people this, sometimes they think, "Oh come on, that's not true." But really, ever since I was a kid I could just tell myself what time I want to wake up and I'll wake up exactly at that time.Sarah: That's really quite amazing. I wish it was that way for me, but it's not.Todd: Yeah. You know what's weird – because I don't use alarm clocks. And I can't – like an alarm clock – the idea actually, I can't have a deep sleep if I know that it's going to ring and wake up, like it's going to jolt. To me an alarm clock is like somebody throwing cold water on you, you know. So yeah, I don't use alarm clocks at all.Sarah: Yeah. I'm always paranoid about being late so that's why I set two just in case like one doesn't go off. But I can sleep anytime of the day. Like it really doesn't matter what type of day, it's very easy for me to fall asleep for as long as whenever. So that's why I have to have an alarm clock because I could sleep 12 or 14 hours and not wake up.Todd: Wow. That's like you do like sleep.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: So do you take naps?Sarah: No, because then I feel really like groggy and really like irritable if I take naps because I just want to sleep longer than that amount of time. So I don't take naps.Todd: Like can you sleep with the light on?Sarah: Yes.Todd: Really?Sarah: Yes.Todd: Yeah, I can't. Actually, that's why I always wake up so early. As soon the light comes through the window, I wake up. I can't sleep if it's not dark.Sarah: I can sleep in any situation; light, noise, sitting up. It doesn't matter. I can sleep.Todd: Oh wow. So you're a deep sleeper.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: I'm so jealous. Like just a little bit of noise or a little bit of light and I can't sleep. And actually, I probably only get an average six hours a night. But I do sometimes take naps.Sarah: Oh okay. How long do you usually nap for?Todd: Usually an hour. I found out if I go over an hour then that's the danger zone because then if you sleep like two or three hours, then you wake up and you're just groggy for the whole day. Like you can't – it's like you've been drugged, you know. So yeah. Forty-five-minute nap is about it.Sarah: Yeah. When you were a child, did your parents make you take naps?Todd: They did. And oddly enough, when I was a kid though, I couldn't sleep, like, you would cry, "I don't want to take a nap" you know. And you'd be like you conk out. But yeah, I do remember.Do you remember having to take naps in school?Sarah: I didn't go to school actually. I was homeschooled.Todd: Oh really.Sarah: I remember taking naps when I was really little but beyond that and like school-age, I never had to.Todd: Oh wow. Anyway, all these talks are making me tired. I think I'm ready for a nap.Sarah: Sounds good.

Todd: Okay. So Sarah, I see you eat soup every day at work. Why are you eating soup every day?Sarah: That's because I love to cook soup.Todd: So you make the soup?Sarah: Yes, it's very easy to make.Todd: So you cook it and then you just bring it to work everyday?Sarah: Yeah. I just make a lot on Monday and then I bring it to work everyday of the week.Todd: Oh nice. So how do you make the soup? What's your secret?Sarah: Well, I like to cook very easy. So I buy meat that's already cut up, usually, chicken and then some rice, usually brown rice and then I buy some vegetables. So after I bought the ingredients, I chop them up and I put them all together in water until boils and add some seasoning.Todd: Okay. So you say the water boils, so as soon as the water boils that's when you put in all the ingredients?Sarah: Yes, that's right.Todd: So you don't put in the ingredients before the water boils.Sarah: No. I guess, it's just easier for the water to be hot because then the vegetables and the meat cook a little faster.Todd: So how do you give the soup flavoring?Sarah: I usually add salt and pepper, maybe some garlic. And depending on the type of soup, either maybe some soy sauce or lemon juice.Todd: Okay. Do you put in the flavoring after you put in the ingredients or before you put in the ingredients?Sarah: Maybe after but usually, right about all at the same time.Todd: Okay.Sarah: So I just put everything in at one time.Todd: And then after you cook the soup, do you put the soup in the refrigerator? Do you let it sit outside?Sarah: I usually eat some right then, and I also put it in containers for the week. But I let it sit in the containers out on the counter for a while for it to cool before I put in the refrigerator.Todd: All right. And so, you don't put it in the refrigerator until it is cool?Sarah: Until it's about room temperature.Todd: Okay, nice. And then how do you heat it up? Do you heat it up in a pot or do you heat it up in the microwave?Sarah: In the microwave. It's the easiest.Todd: Yeah. Nice. So you make enough for five meals?Sarah: Maybe, sometimes. If I think I will get tired of eating it during the week then maybe I'll just make enough for three or four meals. But if it's some kind that I think is really delicious and I know I want to eat it everyday, then I'll make a lot.Todd: Well, if that happens, when you make the soup, you can make it for six or seven and give me a bowl.Sarah: Okay. I'll do that next time.Todd: Oh great. Thanks.

Todd: Okay. So Sarah, I see you eat soup every day at work. Why are you eating soup every day?Sarah: That's because I love to cook soup.Todd: So you make the soup?Sarah: Yes, it's very easy to make.Todd: So you cook it and then you just bring it to work everyday?Sarah: Yeah. I just make a lot on Monday and then I bring it to work everyday of the week.Todd: Oh nice. So how do you make the soup? What's your secret?Sarah: Well, I like to cook very easy. So I buy meat that's already cut up, usually, chicken and then some rice, usually brown rice and then I buy some vegetables. So after I bought the ingredients, I chop them up and I put them all together in water until boils and add some seasoning.Todd: Okay. So you say the water boils, so as soon as the water boils that's when you put in all the ingredients?Sarah: Yes, that's right.Todd: So you don't put in the ingredients before the water boils.Sarah: No. I guess, it's just easier for the water to be hot because then the vegetables and the meat cook a little faster.Todd: So how do you give the soup flavoring?Sarah: I usually add salt and pepper, maybe some garlic. And depending on the type of soup, either maybe some soy sauce or lemon juice.Todd: Okay. Do you put in the flavoring after you put in the ingredients or before you put in the ingredients?Sarah: Maybe after but usually, right about all at the same time.Todd: Okay.Sarah: So I just put everything in at one time.Todd: And then after you cook the soup, do you put the soup in the refrigerator? Do you let it sit outside?Sarah: I usually eat some right then, and I also put it in containers for the week. But I let it sit in the containers out on the counter for a while for it to cool before I put in the refrigerator.Todd: All right. And so, you don't put it in the refrigerator until it is cool?Sarah: Until it's about room temperature.Todd: Okay, nice. And then how do you heat it up? Do you heat it up in a pot or do you heat it up in the microwave?Sarah: In the microwave. It's the easiest.Todd: Yeah. Nice. So you make enough for five meals?Sarah: Maybe, sometimes. If I think I will get tired of eating it during the week then maybe I'll just make enough for three or four meals. But if it's some kind that I think is really delicious and I know I want to eat it everyday, then I'll make a lot.Todd: Well, if that happens, when you make the soup, you can make it for six or seven and give me a bowl.Sarah: Okay. I'll do that next time.Todd: Oh great. Thanks.

Todd: Okay. So Sarah, I see you eat soup every day at work. Why are you eating soup every day?Sarah: That's because I love to cook soup.Todd: So you make the soup?Sarah: Yes, it's very easy to make.Todd: So you cook it and then you just bring it to work everyday?Sarah: Yeah. I just make a lot on Monday and then I bring it to work everyday of the week.Todd: Oh nice. So how do you make the soup? What's your secret?Sarah: Well, I like to cook very easy. So I buy meat that's already cut up, usually, chicken and then some rice, usually brown rice and then I buy some vegetables. So after I bought the ingredients, I chop them up and I put them all together in water until boils and add some seasoning.Todd: Okay. So you say the water boils, so as soon as the water boils that's when you put in all the ingredients?Sarah: Yes, that's right.Todd: So you don't put in the ingredients before the water boils.Sarah: No. I guess, it's just easier for the water to be hot because then the vegetables and the meat cook a little faster.Todd: So how do you give the soup flavoring?Sarah: I usually add salt and pepper, maybe some garlic. And depending on the type of soup, either maybe some soy sauce or lemon juice.Todd: Okay. Do you put in the flavoring after you put in the ingredients or before you put in the ingredients?Sarah: Maybe after but usually, right about all at the same time.Todd: Okay.Sarah: So I just put everything in at one time.Todd: And then after you cook the soup, do you put the soup in the refrigerator? Do you let it sit outside?Sarah: I usually eat some right then, and I also put it in containers for the week. But I let it sit in the containers out on the counter for a while for it to cool before I put in the refrigerator.Todd: All right. And so, you don't put it in the refrigerator until it is cool?Sarah: Until it's about room temperature.Todd: Okay, nice. And then how do you heat it up? Do you heat it up in a pot or do you heat it up in the microwave?Sarah: In the microwave. It's the easiest.Todd: Yeah. Nice. So you make enough for five meals?Sarah: Maybe, sometimes. If I think I will get tired of eating it during the week then maybe I'll just make enough for three or four meals. But if it's some kind that I think is really delicious and I know I want to eat it everyday, then I'll make a lot.Todd: Well, if that happens, when you make the soup, you can make it for six or seven and give me a bowl.Sarah: Okay. I'll do that next time.Todd: Oh great. Thanks.

Not many people trade in both a successful finance career and the chance to get a Harvard diploma for the opportunity to launch a business. But that’s what Sarah Paiji Yoo did. And when she found success and sold her first company, she knew that she could never satisfy that entrepreneurial itch by doing anything but building another company. Sarah went on to co-found a start-up studio and helped launch a number of other companies, including M.Gemi and Rockets of Awesome, but she craved more. Ultimately, she wanted to dig into something that served a deeper purpose.  Today, Sarah is a co-founder of Blueland, a consumer products company on a mission to eliminate single-use plastic packaging. The way Sarah and her team are accomplishing that mission has started with creating a new way to develop and use cleaning products and has included a stop along the way in the Shark Tank, where Mr. Wonderful himself, Kevin O’Leary, bought into the company.  On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Sarah sheds light on common mistakes that young entrepreneurs make when they are starting out, as well as shares the secrets for avoiding those mistakes. Plus, she explains what the holy grail metric is for judging the health of your company.  3 Takeaways: In the early days when you only have one or two products that consumers buy, it’s easy to keep track of how people get funneled through. As you begin to expand your product offerings, measuring acquisition behavior and retention becomes more important in being able to judge the health of the company and the new products brought to market.  The importance of focusing on product-market fit can’t be overstated. Often, young companies and their founders get caught in the trap of trying to please investors or race to profitability through clever marketing or other shortcuts. The only way to achieve meaningful, sustained success is to know you have product-market fit from the get-go, and then optimizing your strategy from there.   You can still do something even if you don’t have all the pieces to the puzzle. Even though an idea seems simple, there are always going to be complications to work through. Being tenacious and having grit are the keys to being able to see you vision through to completion. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey, everyone. This is Stephanie Postles, your host of Up Next in Commerce. Today we have Sarah Paiji Yoo on the show, the co-founder and CEO at Blueland. Sarah, how are you? Sarah: I'm great, how are you, Stephanie? Stephanie: Doing well. And you're calling in from New York, right? Sarah: Yeah. Good, old New York City. Stephanie: Yeah, how's New York life right now? Sarah: New York life, it certainly feels ... It's funny, because I feel like in the beginning, we definitely were the hotspot of coronavirus. But now it feels like one of the safer places to be, given the high immunity. So, it's good. I think it's a little unfortunate that summer now, it's my favorite season in New York, so, it's unfortunate that we're still, for the most part, having to stay at home. But I think we got in our groove and it has definitely given at least my family the opportunity to force ourselves to find other ways to explore nature right outside New York City. Stephanie: So, I'd love to dive a bit into your background before we get into Blueland. Because I read some interesting things about you about having some Ecommerce companies in the past and dropping out of Harvard MBA program and I'd love to hear a bit about your journey of how you got to where you are today. Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. So, I guess if I were to start way back, I started my career actually pretty traditionally in finance and consulting. Certainly early in my career I actually had no aspirations to be an entrepreneur. I always consider myself relatively risk-averve so it is interesting to see how life unfolds. But yeah, I started my career very traditionally after those stints in consulting and finance, which I actually wouldn't trade for the world. I really appreciate the experiences and the skillsets that I picked up and the frameworks it gave me to really think about the world and business. Sarah: But after those stints I decided to go back to Harvard for business school, to really, most of all to be able to have the time to step back and reflect on what it was that I wanted to do next. Because I think my early experiences, if anything, taught me that I wasn't a lifer in terms of professional services, I really wanted to be more in the driver's seat and wanted to be at a company versus advising the company. And so, yeah, I made the decision to go to business school. And when I got to business school it was a really interesting time because there had been, right before I came, a series of female founders that had started very impressive companies, GuildCrew, Birchbox, Rent the Runway, LearnVest, Katrina who started Stitch Fix with just one year ahead of me in business school. Sarah: And that was extremely inspiring for me just to see a set of women who were young and had a very similar background or set of experience as myself and see them so quote, unquote, early in their career, setting out to build their own business. And I decided that given business school ... You can make what you want of business school but it doesn't have to be particularly rigorous. And so, I had more time on my hands than I did previously what I was working in, so I decided to really use that time and try to start a business while I was in business school. And a few months in I ended up starting work on my first startup, which was Snapette, which was a mobile shopping app that helps consumers find products and stores around them. Sarah: I was really excited about everything that I was seeing around smartphones and the mobile space. And this was still pretty early on. So, this was almost 10 years ago, pre Instagram days, if you can imagine a world before Instagram. Stephanie: Tough world to start in. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, that's the first business I decided to start while in school. I ended up raising a round of venture capital that summer between my first and what was supposed to be my second year of business school. And so made ... it was actually a very easy decision, to drop out of Harvard and continue to just work on Snapette. And I ended up scaling that business for the next about three and a half years to a small team, about 20 people. And then we ended up selling that business to one of the world's largest stock search engines at the time, called PriceGrabber. Again, almost four years in. And- Stephanie: That's amazing. What was the process like, selling the company? Did you actively go about selling your company or were you approached? Or how did that look? I heard a good quote the other day that companies don't just get acquired, you actually need to actively go and sell your company if you want it to be sold sometimes. Sarah: It's interesting because I've also heard the opposite. Stephanie: Oh, interesting. Sarah: Which I can related to both [inaudible 00:05:48]. I was actually worried with the phrase, but we were lucky in terms of we received an inbound. Stephanie: Oh, nice. Sarah: That tipped us off to, "Oh, this might actually be a good time to sell. And the context of that period was, I started Snapette at a time when Mary Meeker and a lot of these industry experts were saying, "Oh, mobile's going to be the future. People are going to spend more time on their phones than on their desktop," and that seemed inconceivable, the early days as she was saying that. And when we sold, that's when we were seeing about 30% of site traffic, to many of the major sites coming from mobile instead of desktop. So, it still hadn't flipped yet. Sarah: But it definitely felt like it was coming. And so, yeah, we had an inbound from a traditional, online, non-mobile player. And that kick started me to reach out to a few more folks in the space that had a similar profile, because if we were going to engage in these conversations I thought, "Let's run a robust process," because obviously competition can always help drive a better outcome. And so that's what I did. And ended up not really engaging a bank or anything. That's where my former finance experience definitely did come in handy because I did have experience buying and selling companies and so I understood ad a high level what that process looked like. And so, yeah, we were able to quarter back that process in-house and get a few offers and ultimately find an acquirer for our business. Stephanie: That's amazing. So, at that point you got the itch to start another company? You're like, "This is great. I'm going for round two." Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. So, initially we had ... Not initially. We had a one year lockup with the parent company. And so our whole team moved over. And it was interesting, I think initially I was extremely excited about the prospect of being part of a much larger organization, that had much higher revenues and much larger budget. And I didn't expect how quickly ... I feel like day one, post-acquisition all of a sudden, the speed at which we were running, everything came to a halt. And all of a sudden my calendar was full of just meetings with lots of people back to back. Sarah: And I think it was hard. I think it was hard going from also this small, mobile startup where Apple would make an announcement about the newest feature and then I would get together with my team and our engineers and really think about like, "Oh, how can we integrate this? How can really use this to push our product forward?" And in a larger organization, completely understandably you have much longer product roadmaps, you need to justify why a change that you want to make is going to add more value to the company than some much larger initiatives that maybe underway. Sarah: And we were dealing with 18 month, plus product roadmaps, which to me at the time felt like, "Oh my god, if I have to wait 18 months to start working on some of these things, I'm going to be dead." So, it was an interesting contrast for me. And so, I certainly, definitely developed that itch to go back out and start something again. And I think also as a first time founder with Snapette, I had made so many mistakes along the way. And I was just dying to do it again but be better the next time around. Stephanie: So, then where did you go after that [crosstalk 00:09:35]? Sarah: Yeah, so after that, it's interesting, because I think ... my career, my life had been so linear til pre Snapette. But I think that startup journey really showed me both the joys and the benefits of just being being open to what life may bring and that really just reaffirming the Steve Jobs quote, "If you can't connect the dots forward, only looking back." And so, at that point I knew I wanted to get back into early stage company building. I wasn't proactively looking for my next business or the next idea, but I ended up reconnecting with a former acquaintance in the Ecomm space, Ben Fischman, who had also sold his startup, Rue La La, which was one of the first flash sale sites here in the U.S. Sarah: And he had sold his company right around the same time I sold Snapette. And he was exploring the idea of raising a fund and to start a series of new businesses. So, it wouldn't be a venture capital fund, but it would be more like a startup studio. And the thesis that we both share was that, at this point it was 2013, we believed that it was still very early innings in terms of direct-to-consumer. So, at that point Warby Parker was our, in way, that preeminent example of direct-to-consumer. But it was our belief that we would continue to see whole categories move direct-to-consumer, and many of which we've seen now come into fruition. I remember at that point thinking about, "Oh, we're going to see everything from shoes to socks to tampons to vitamins, etc. Everything is going to develop a new brand and find more efficient ways to directly reach and communicate with consumers." Sarah: And so, yeah, he was like, "You should come do this with me." And at that point, again, I didn't have a specific idea in mind. I knew that I wanted to be back in the company building stage. I loved the tech and direct-to-consumer space. And so, yeah, I jumped onboard with him and was a founding member and partner of that team. And so, that startup studio was called LAUNCH, or is called LAUNCH, it's still around today. And the goal was to then launch one new business per year, which is what we ended up doing. So, over the next four years we launched M.Gemi in our first year, Rockets of Awesome. M.Gemi is a direct-to-consumer footwear business. And then we launches Rockets of Awesome the second year, which is a direct-to-consumer subscription kids apparel business. And then we launched Follain, which is a clean beauty retailer. And in the last year that I was with LAUNCH, LAUNCH Trade, which is a direct-to-consumer coffee marketplace. Stephanie: Very cool. How did those individual companies do? Sarah: The individual companies have all been doing great. They're still around today, very proud of how far they've come. But it was definitely a crazy time. Certainly in a period where we've seen over funding and collapses, you know many important DTC businesses I think very proud to say that all those businesses are in great shape and still around today. Stephanie: Yeah, that sounds really fun. Chaotic and crazy but fun. Were there any universal truths that you learned? Even though the companies sound very different that you were launching there, was there anything that you found a best practice and then you could apply it to future businesses? Sarah: Yeah, I think the biggest takeaway, probably from launching multiple businesses is just the importance of focus and the importance especially of focus on product market that in early days I think it's very easy, especially when you are venture backed, either with access to capital or with this immense pressure to grow quickly, to grow into the valuations that you may have raised that it can be easy to fall into the trap to shift a lot of your focus to marketing and growing. But ultimately the best marketing is an amazing product or service that drives strong retention, strong word of mouth. Sarah: And any marketing spend that you deploy is going to be so much more efficient and effective if you don't have a leaky bucket. And I think that's one that is certainly harder, especially in this world where we celebrate large fundings and also companies growing very quickly. And I just think there's so much value, especially early days of almost staying smaller so that especially the founders can really focus entirely on product-market fit and making all the tweaks necessary to really optimize the product, service or offering. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree about that. How did you all go about finding or knowing when you had product-market fit? Were you like, "This is the one, let's move forward."? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's hard to draw that line in the sand, for sure. I think an important metric or area of metrics to look at certainly are around retention and repeat. Because ultimately there is a lot of focus, especially in D2C, on acquisition. And whether it's customer acquisition cost or cost per acquired customer, ultimately, that doesn't give you the full picture. That just tells you that you were able to have a clever ad and maybe you have attracted someone to make that first purchase. But it's certainly a lot cheaper to have your customer purchase again and repeat with you than having to go out into the market and pay for a brand new customer. And so, we've always been extremely focused on the retention metrics as a leading indicator to help the business. Stephanie: Yeah. yeah, that's great. So, then, at what point were you at LAUNCH where you were, once again, "It's time for me to move on, do my own thing again."? Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, I had a crazy journey and it was an amazing ride. I learned a ton about launching new business, having to do that back to back. But I think after my fourth year, after the fourth business, I developed a deep seated desire to do something that was a little more personally meaningful. I think for so many years simply the challenge and excitement of bringing a new brand or product to market that had never existed before was enough for me and it was incredibly energizing. And I still love that aspect of it. But at that point I was looking to build something beyond selling more shoes or beauty products. Sarah: And I think that also was heavily influenced by my becoming a new mom around that time. So, it's not coincidence that the number of years I've been working on Blueland is about the same number of years as my son's age. Stephanie: Yeah, it's funny how all of a sudden, same with me, you get interested in what's organic and what's actually natural and- Sarah: Hard to miss it. Stephanie: Yeah, it's something I never paid attention to that much until having kids. Sarah: Yeah, no, exactly, exactly, exactly. And I think you also start questioning how you're spending your time. You have very limited time, and thinking once you have children and a family it highlights more clearly for you the trade offs between work and rest of life. And I think, I was very open to how I would feel on the other side of motherhood. I was very open to maybe I wasn't going to want to work at all. Maybe I was going to be so obsessed with my child that I was going to want to spend every waking moment with him, which would also have been a fine outcome. But interestingly, after having my son, for me, I realized that I still really did love working. I loved my work a lot but I think I just needed to find more meaning in it if it was going to take up so many hours of my day and taking away from my child. Stephanie: Cool. So, then, what was the first step when it came to ... what really led you to creating Blueland? Was there an aha moment, was there something ... Tell me a little bit about what Blueland is maybe first and then how you came up with the idea. Sarah: Yeah. So, Blueland is a consumer products company, we are on a mission to eliminate single use plastic packaging. And we are starting with cleaning products. And so, the first set of products that we launched, when we launched about a year ago were a set of cleaning sprays and hand soap. And what was really unique about our products was that instead of selling you a bottle of liquid, these products are traditionally about 90% water, we've shrunk these products down to these tablets that are about the size of a quarter so that instead of buying a new plastic bottle every time, instead of paying for all this water which you already have at home, you can use one of our beautiful, reusable bottles and simply fill them up with warm water, drop in one of our tablets and it starts to bubble on its own, there's no shaking or stirring or weird chemistry required. And at the end of a few minutes, you have a full bottle of hand soap or cleaning spray. Stephanie: Yeah, that's cool. Sarah: And our cleaning sprays include a multi-surface cleaner, glass and mirror and a bathroom cleaner. Stephanie: Yeah, it remind me of a Alka-Seltzer, where you drop it in and then all of a sudden you have this big big bottle of cleaning solution. Sarah: Exactly, exactly, exactly. And we stared there because we found that it was very intuitive for people even though it was something that had never been done before, it was brand new to market, it was something that people could see and quickly understand like, "Oh, that makes sense. That water and the tablet can make a bottle cleaner." And so, yeah, those are the products we started with. Happy to say last month we released our newest category which is the dish category. So, we launched a dish soap and dishwasher tablets. And in a similar vein, these products were created as part of a reusable, refillable system. So, upfront we sell you a permanent, forever container that you can refill with our refills that come packaged in paper based compostable packaging instead of plastic. Sarah: And so, our dish soap is actually a powder. But it's used very similarly to liquid, to the extent that you just sprinkle it directly onto your sponge, you add water and then you get a nice, rich foam. And yeah, our dishwasher tablets are naked, to the extent that they don't come individually wrapped in that plastic film that you'll find, with most all dishwasher packs. Stephanie: I've never really thought about, "Where does that film go? Does it just go down the drain? Sarah: Yeah. So, it's unfortunate because it- Stephanie: That's sad. Sarah: Yeah, it is sad. It is sad. Because I think the assumption for a lot of people, understandably, is that because it dissolves, that it just goes away. But unfortunately, because it is a synthetic petroleum based plastic film, the plastic molecules do still remain and enter our water systems and majority of it is then ultimately released into the oceans, rivers and anything else. Stephanie: So, when building this company, I read that you had reached out to over 50 manufacturers who all turned you down. And I wanted to hear- Sarah: Oh my goodness. Stephanie: I wanted to hear that story a bit, because I think most people maybe after 10 woudlve been like, "Well, it's not possible." Or, "We can't find how to contain these tablets." Or, "No one knows how to do it." Tell me a bit about what was that process like when starting to build the products out and trying to find people to partner with to make them? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I think a big piece of being a entrepreneur, it's not rocket science, it's just being tenacious and having grit and not taking no for an answer and not assuming that because it's never been done, that means that it can't be done. And so, yeah, I think when we initially came up with this idea for Blueland, it was a crazy idea. And we had a lot of questions from people like, "Well, if it's so easy, why hasn't it been done?" And we're like, "Well, somebody has to be the first." Sarah: And so, yeah, initially, the natural place to start was to reach out to manufacturers, because typically, whether it's in the food space or the cleaning space or in the beauty space, a lot of these spaces are fashion. A company usually works with a contract manufacturer to actually make their products. And so, first choice was finding someone with the existing infrastructure that could just make this for us. Not surprising, in retrospect, hindsight's always 20/20, that no one could do this for us. We were reaching out to cleaning products manufacturers who were creating these products as liquids, and they were pretty much telling us how, "We don't know how to deal with solids, like we don't even have tableting machinery. And in fact, many of the ingredients that we buy for our liquid products actually come in liquid form. And so not even sure how we would then transform that into a dry product." Stephanie: But did you have an ingredient list? Were you like, "This is what I want in it?" Because that [crosstalk] seems hard to me of like, how would I make a multi-surface cleaner? Sarah: Exactly, exactly. So, in the beginning it's just this huge chicken or egg problem. So, we reached out to many manufacturers. And at that point it became also just less so in terms of ... we didn't necessarily think we were going to find an end-all, be-all solution with one of these calls but our hope was that we were going to get enough smart people in the space, who had been in the space for decades to talk to us in each of these conversations, we were going to glean a little bit more information. And if they couldn't do it, they would potentially know someone else who could. Whether it was a scientist ... because a lot of these contract manufacturers also work with contractor chemists, et cetera, they might know of an ingredient that they heard of that would be able to help us do this and so it really was just our form of Googling around, when Google could only get us so far on these niche topics that no one had a reason to read up about online. Sarah: But yeah, I think it became apparent through these conversations that someone was going to be able do just do this for us and everyone was recommending that we would need to come to them with a formula. And at that point felt like we hit another wall because my co-founder and I, we didn't have any chemists in our direct network. We had no idea where to even begin. We were both business people. And so, we, after asking our network, not really finding any leads to any reputable chemists, certainly no chemists with a cleaning products background, we just turned to LinkedIn. Stephanie: Ooh. Sarah: That was just a natural place to turn to, to be able to search for experts based on their experiences and at that point ended up going down another, very long rabbit hole of collecting ... We still have that spreadsheet today of hundreds of names of chemists that we found on LinkedIn and wrote up what their background was and ranked them and then just started reaching out to them, just [inaudible] reaching out to them on LinkedIn and just trying to get as many people as we could on the phone with us, like we were doing with the manufacturers. Stephanie: Did you get a good response rate from people or was it slow? Sarah: It was definitely slow. In LinkedIn there's all these limitations of if you're not connected, they may not readily see your message, also turns out a lot of chemists aren't actively checking their LinkedIn or messages. We also were just two random people that were messaging about this crazy idea that most recipients on the other side probably had like, "I don't know how to do what they want to do," or, "This idea seems crazy," or, "Why are they soliciting me for a job? Why would I leave my big company, well paid job to go do this?" Sarah: So yeah, I think suffice to say response rate wasn't great. But to some extent, it also was a numbers game, which is why we did reach out to so many people. And we were able to get a good number of people also just to get on the phone with us. And there definitely were a set of folks that we're so thankful to that were inspired by our mission and the audacity of at least the vision, and were willing to chat to see if they could be helpful. And that is ultimately also how we found our incredible head of R&D, Syed, it was through LinkedIn. Sarah: He was formerly at method, which is one of the world's largest non-toxic cleaning products companies. And prior to that, he had the perfect background because prior to cleaning products he was actually working in nutritional supplements. So, vitamins. So, he also had that hard, tabled-like form factor experience. Stephanie: That's amazing. So, how many tablets are you selling today? And how much plastic is it removing from the environment if someone chooses that versus a normal alternative? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. For us today, I forget the latest numbers. But we've sold tablets in the millions- Stephanie: Wow. Sarah: ... at this point, which is exciting because that means that our impact has also certainly been in the millions of plastic bottles eliminated. I think people are always surprised to hear that five billion plastic cleaning bottles are discarded each year, because there is so much focus on the water bottles and the coffee cups and the straws. Rightly so, because those numbers are even larger. But people are always surprised to hear how much of ian impact you can do by also just swapping out your cleaning products to a reusable solution. Stephanie: Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. Nice work. So, I'm guessing there has to be some kind of convincing and education factor that had to go on because a lot of customers at first, they all worry about maybe the anti-microbial factor and everyone's probably ... at least when I think about it I'm like, "Just throw some Lysol on it or bleach or something, that'll clean up anything." How do you go about convincing people that your product has the same benefits and even though it's natural, it'll still work? What does that education piece look like? Sarah: Yeah. So, that education piece is obviously so important and has become even more important during this period of time and COVID where people are very focused at keeping germs, bacterias and viruses at bay. We received, especially in March and April, that was the number one question that we were getting, especially around hand soap, actually. Where people were asking if our hand soap was antibacterial, whether our hand soap would kill COVID. And there we were very direct with the answer that ultimately, no, our hand soap is not antibacterial, it's not disinfecting, we cannot make the claim that it kills COVID. But it was an educational moment for us because at that point we could start the conversation with consumers that also are rooted in many studies that suggest that antibacterial soaps might actually be doing more harm than good, as well as if you look at the FDA, they've made official statements that say, "Regular, non-antibacterial soap is effective for the removal of bacteria and viruses," and that hand washing with plain, non-antibacterial soap is a great way to prevent the contraction and spread of illnesses. Sarah: And so, I think most people that hear that get it, and it will even link them to the FDA site on proper hand washing techniques and just to just reassure people this, "By no means are we looking to mislead or brainwash," but that it's just more the education of, you know, many times I think there's this perception you need a certain set of ingredients to get a certain job done. But- Stephanie: It's part of the marketing behind that too, for people who do have the antimicrobial stuff in it, they're pushing it so hard, "You need this," when I've read the same research about you actually don't really need that and you can still have very clean hands afterwards. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly, exactly. And so, it's been nice. It's been a nice period where we can also provide that education, because we are staunch supporters of non-toxic formulations. And so, any opportunity that we have to speak more to the efficacy of non-toxic products as well is always, we think, a good thing, not just for us but for the broader industry and for people on the planet. Stephanie: Yeah. So, how do you get people to find you? I'm thinking, if I'm going to the grocery store, that's maybe where I'll pick up a cleaning product when I run out or something. Are you in retail or were you planning on going into retail before COVID or are you staying strictly B to C? Or how are you thinking about that? Because it seems like it'd be hard to bring people over to buying online when maybe they've never thought to do that unless it's through maybe Amazon Prime or something, I don't know. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. No, it's definitely one of the larger areas of friction that we recognize. To the extent that it's interesting when you think about it from a direct-to-consumer perspective or context because I definitely went into this eyes wide open, as to this is a category that's going to be harder to convince people to go to a separate, online destination to buy the products. Because in my past, I've been in shoes, I've been in apparel, I've been in beauty, and for all of those, especially something like shoes or swimwear, I would argue it's easier to convince someone for a one-off special purchase, like glasses, to go to a separate destination. Sarah: But to your point, with the cleaning products, this is a product that even early surveys have found that over 80% of people would prefer to just purchase these either in brick and mortar stores or just as part of the shopping that they're doing regularly anyways, whether it's weekly or biweekly grocery shopping, whether it's all on Amazon or at their local Target or Walmart. And I think that because of that, retail will definitely have to be an important part of our future. At the moment we are still a most all direct-to-consumer business. We have a handful of retailers that we sell through but still pretty minimal like we're with Goop or with West Elm, we're with Nordstrom. But I think- Stephanie: Those are some pretty good names. Sarah: Yeah. Those are definitely great names, but those are more I think we still view brand enhancing names and not necessarily the place where people are going to every week to traditionally buy these products. But I think it all comes back to focus and we also always knew that direct-to-consumer was going to be an important component of launching the brand. I think there's so many benefits, especially from a brand building and story telling perspective and explaining the mission and as a new brand to market just explaining who we are. And it's certainly an efficient enough channel to be able to get to early adopters and a set of consumers. But we do believe that if we are going to truly maximize our environmental impact and reach as many households as we can, then absolutely, we do need to, at one point, go into retail, physical retail and traditional retail. Stephanie: Cool, so, how do you get in front of the early adopters that you just mentioned? What kind of digital channels are you exploring? How are you doing your marketing? How are you finding customers and bringing them back? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Instagram has been an invaluable channel for us, especially on the organic side. I think we've had great success there. So, we've been live for probably just about a year now, we have over 170,000 followers on Instagram, all of it organic. We haven't really done any paid influence or promotion or anything. And I think it's really helped that because our mission is so integrated into our product offering, we are a mission driven company but that could mean different things for different companies. And for some companies that means it's a donation that they're making or a philanthropy in addition to whatever their core product or service is. And for us, our mission is just 100% integrated into the products that we sell. And that's given us the ability to, on social speak across a range of topics and speak more broadly about climate change and plastic pollution and tips on how we can each do our part. Sarah: And it's been so exciting to see how much that's resonated with the community on instagram and how quickly we've grown and it certainly is one of our largest channels. So, it's exciting to see that organic is something that that can work for a direct-to-consumer brand. Stephanie: Yeah, especially if you have that. Sustainability is a hot topic right now and like you said, if you're able to lean into those groups and people and tags and stuff, that opens up a whole new market where maybe other DTC companies who are just trying to sell their product and create brand new content, very different. So, it seems like that'd be a very helpful way to get new customers and access to an audience that maybe you wouldn't get access to otherwise if you weren't building a sustainable product. Sarah: Definitely, definitely, definitely. And it's also been a really great amplifier for word of mouth. I think we're fortunate that we have a product that people feel more inclined to share. So, everyday we get hundreds of people story-ing our products and their unboxings. And I think that's being driven by two things. One is just the mission I think that gives people a real reason or additional reason to want to share our product with their friends, because also saving the planet is something that we have to do together and they understand that the more they can raise awareness for things that help this planet, to their friends and community, the better place we'll all be in. But also, our products are very visual and experiential. The process of making the solutions, dropping the tablet, showing the tablets dissolved. Sarah: I was very worried, before we launched Blueland that that would be one of the largest hurdles to our success because undoubtedly it is more work for a consumer than just going out and picking up a bottle of solution. But I think it's hugely benefited us, especially in a world with video, Instagram stories, et cetera. Stephanie: So, when you're thinking of the health of Blueland, as you're building it, what kind of metrics are you looking at? Specifically maybe around your website and how to know if you're really doing well? Sarah: Yeah, it's definitely starting to get a lot more complicated now that we have so many more products. I think early days it was a lot simpler ... I would say early days it was a lot more straightforward given ... I think over 90% of our new customers were coming in through the same kit. They were all purchasing our four piece kit. And because it that initial basket was pretty uniform, it was much easier to track those cohorts over time and understand both acquisition behavior and success as well as retention behavior and success. I think now, as we look at our business, there's a lot more granularity. We've layered in more fragrances, we have at this point I think six different kit permutations that you could opt into. Sarah: There isn't a clear kit that all new customers opt into. We also have many people that are adding refill packs now to their kits and their first purchase, which changes the way we have to think about repeat curves and retention because a customer, if they're loading up a dozen multi-surface cleaning tablets in their first purchase, that's actually a great thing for business. It drives higher AOP, it's certainly also better for the environment because we're only shipping that package to them once and they may not need another package from us for a year, at least on the multi-surface cleaner side. But as you can imagine, we then need to look at our data in a much more nuanced way and cut in so many more different ways to really understand what is happening. But yeah, largely we are very focused on customer acquisition cost, the conversion on our site at every part of the funnel and then repeat basket size based on original basket size and channel. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. So, is there any best practices when all of a sudden you have a lot more data to work with and you're trying to actually see trends and parse out the noise. Is there anything that ... I'm assuming with your finance background, you're probably already very good at data. I also have a finance background and how long I had to be in sheets and looking at numbers all day was crazy. But, you do learn how to actually parse through large data sets. Like, what are some best practices that you say worked when it came to expanding your product catalog and actually trying to find trends and things to pay attention to? Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. I think the main thing is making sure that you're being thoughtful about the tests that you set up and setting them up in a way where the data will be valuable and also just taking into account what you're in or how much volume you're getting and so not trying to test too much all at one time. Because I think, and I bring up testing because sometimes it's hard to look at just the organic data that you're getting and make a determination as to what the value drivers are. So, for example, a question that we're trying to solve at the moment is that, are there better kits for people to start on? Do we have a preference as to, is the customer going to be more likely to stay with this? Is the customer more valuable if they buy into kit one very kit four? Sarah: And it's hard to look at the data that you have without setting up a clean test because there maybe other factors that have driven certain consumers to a kit one versus a kit four, that would then make their retention characteristics different. So, to do a very clean test, you would want ideally place randomize and drop off a set of consumers to either kit one or kit four and then see if those two cohorts perform differently over time. Sarah: But it's just making sure that we're being really thoughtful with the test, making sure that there's not other confounding variables that we're introducing, like for example making sure we're using the same ad creative to drop people off on kit one versus kit four, taking into account, again, how much traffic we expect to drive, how quickly that test will wrap up. Because certainly you could think, "Well, we're going to do this test for kit one through seven and do seven kits that we're landing on." But it may also just take forever to get any type of answer of statistical significance if we're dividing up our volume in that way. Sarah: Yeah, so things like that. But certainly something that we're thinking a lot about and is certainly far from straightforward. Stephanie: Yeah, tough problems to solve but I'm sure very informative and helpful for the future. So, I know we don't have too much longer but I did want to ask, we've been on a Shark Tank kick lately, we've been a couple of companies who've been on Shark Tank before you as well, and I wanted to hear- Sarah: Awesome. Stephanie: ... very high level, doesn't have to be a really long story, but how the experience was for you and how you dealt with the increase demand and your inventory and everything that came after being on the show? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What a wild experience. It's always actually been facetious, half serious dream of mine to go on shark tank. So, it was really exciting. I think we over prepared every step of the way, which was right in terms of I don't say that negatively. But everything from leading up into the pitch, to making sure that we were ready from a site perspective. Our team still says today that we've never been so prepared for anything outside of Shark Tank. Stephanie: That's amazing. Sarah: So, it's something that we always point to, even with our new product launches or other things that we're trying to do. Because especially in startup world, you're rushing, it's never ... And we always point to, "Look how well Shark Tank went, because we spent the time, we were organized, we put the time in and it definitely pays off." Stephanie: What kind of things did you prepare? If you were to look back and say, "These two things were the best things that we did to prepare? Or what were some of the levers there that you were working on? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, I think before filming on that side, it really was all hands on deck, full team for that week leading up to our Shark Tank filming we pretty much focused on Shark Tank. Especially Syed, our head of R&D and myself were going to go into the tank. But even the rest of the team, we were required probably at least twice a day, for about an hour and a half each, so about three hours a day, whole team would be on just grilling us every which way, with the hardest questions they could throw, with the most inappropriate questions they could throw at us. Stephanie: That's fun. Sarah: It's fun. And it was, in the beginning it definitely was incredibly embarrassing because it was so hard. You're just like ... But after that, it really did prepare us for anything that could come our way in the tank. So, that was great. Including lots of, they just threw lots of mental math at us, which if anything, I don't know if they got us better at mental math that it got me better controlling my facial expression when I didn't know something. Stephanie: Yeah, or just delaying the response so long they forget what they asked, maybe? Sarah: Exactly, exactly, exactly. So, that was very valuable. And then from a site perspective, we really did everything we could possibly do to make sure that the site didn't come down. We spoke with a lot of other companies who had aired on Shark Tank to get their tips for what to do, and that was really helpful. Like the guys at Plated had a landing page ready. Because their site did go down. And so, they were very thankful that they did have a landing page ready to capture email addresses. And they were able to capture a ton of email addresses that way and then email the people when they were back up and running. So, we did that. Someone, another company had a really great idea to swap out all the videos or gifs we had running through the site. So, anything that was heavy that takes up a lot of speed or memory and just pairing back to replace all the videos on our site with images. Again, just to lighten up the site as much as we can. Stephanie: Cool. Yeah, that definitely seems like some good due diligence. And you guys ended up getting a deal, right? Sarah: Yeah. We ended up getting a deal with Kevin O'Leary, who has been fantastic and really supportive and shockingly accessible. Stephanie: I was going to ask that, do you actually get time with him and is he actually helpful? Sarah: Yeah, yeah. We get a lot of- Stephanie: Give me all the gossip. Sarah: Yeah. We get a lot. Early days, I was like, "Is this too much time? I have other things to do." But we probably speak by phone or text once every two weeks or so. And definitely- Stephanie: Wow. Sarah: Yeah, yeah, and [crosstalk 00:52:50]- Stephanie: That's way more than I actually thought. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, in early stage I feel like I was talking to him multiple times a week, especially right coming off of Shark Tank when we had a lot of opportunities and he brought us onto QVC the week after Shark Tank aired. Stephanie: Oh, nice. Sarah: We've done multiple press interviews on TV together. It's been great. It's been really great. Stephanie: That's really cool. Yeah, thanks for sharing that story. So, now we're running out of time. Is there anything you wanted to cover before we jump into a quick lightning round? Sarah: No. I think we covered a lot of ground. Stephanie: All right. Cool, well, let's jump into the lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud, this is where I will ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer with whatever comes to mind. Sarah: Okay, great. Stephanie: Are you ready, Sarah? Sarah: Yes, let's do it. Stephanie: All right. I'm going to start with the hardest question first because you've been in the industry for a while and I feel like you'll have a good answer to this, what one thing will the ... Oh, let me rephrase that. What one thing will have the biggest impact on Ecommerce in the next year? Sarah: Ooh, in the next year. Oh, that one's harder. In the next year ... I would say packaging. It's a non-traditional answer. But I do feel like we're seeing the tides are shifting. I've just started to receive my first set of Amazon packages that for once are coming in paper based envelopes instead of plastic based envelopes. And I think that's going to send a great signal to the industry of, "We need to be a lot more thoughtful about with all this Ecommerce comes an incredible amount of packaging waste and consumers are becoming so much more knowledgeable and mindful about the waste that they're creating." And I think we'll start demanding this stuff of companies. Stephanie: Love that answer. What's up next on your reading list? Sarah: What's up next on my reading list? So, I've been incredibly inspired by the Black Lives movement, Black Lives Matter movement. And so, I have picked up a ton of books in that process. And my next one actually, by my bed right now is White Rage. Stephanie: Nice. And have you started it yet? Sarah: I have not started it yet. Stephanie: Cool, we'll have to circle back and let me know what you think of it. Sarah: Yes. Stephanie: If you were to build another company, which I feel like you will probably be doing in your lifetime, what would that next company be? Sarah: Oh, geez. That's so hard, that's so hard. that's so hard because I love the company I'm building at the moment. I always tell my co-founder that I don't think I'd want to sell this business because I don't know what I would work on next. It's just an incredible mix of product development, science and really doing things that I believe will make a huge difference in the world, as well as just educating people in areas outside of our products, which has been incredibly gratifying, just being able to talk about ... Email's probably a couple times a month and certainly social posts multiple times a week where we're just talking about things that have nothing to do with our products but just ways that you could cut out single use plastic from your day to day life. I do think that if I do move on past Blueland, it certainly is going to be something around the space as well in terms of where- Stephanie: Sustainability. Sarah: Sustainability, exactly, sustainability and climate change. Stephanie: Cool. It would seem sad to throw away all the knowledge. I've heard that quite often where a lot of times founders will just get eager to move onto the next thing and they don't always properly value all the knowledge they built up either from their current company they're at or what industry they're in. And so, yeah, that seems great. Sarah: Totally. Stephanie: What's up next on your Netflix queue? Sarah: So, next up on our Netflix queue is season two of The Politician. I know I'm a few weeks late, but I've actually heard that ... my husband and I loved season one and we heard season two there's actually a lot of focus on plastic pollution and there's actually a character who's really leading the charge on eliminating plastic from her and other day to day lifestyles, so, it'll be interesting to see their spin on that. Stephanie: Yeah. No, that sounds cool. Yeah, there's also a series, I don't know if you've heard of it, it's with Zac Efron, which at first I was like, "No, how is he going to do a series on big problems and sustainability and things like that?" It's actually quite interesting. They ... Sarah: Oh. Stephanie: I'm trying to think what it's called. Maybe producer, Hilary can look that up for me and put it in our notes here. But yeah, he went through, first he visited Iceland and was showing there all of the renewable energy that they generate for Iceland. And then episode two was talking about water and it went into France's water system and how they purify it in a much better way than a lot of places in the U.S. do it, so, another one to just put on your radar. But I don't know the name of it, I just know Zac Efron's hosting it. Sarah: No, that's great. I haven't seen him in anything since High School Musical so I'm actually- Stephanie: I know. Sarah: ... excited to see him all grown up. Stephanie: I know, when I saw him on there I was a little bit confused. I was like, "Wait, what?" And then I was like, "Okay, yeah. You're doing a good job. This is cool." Oh, let's see, Hillary put it in there. Down to Earth with Zac Efron. Pretty good one, very interesting. Sarah: Great. Great, great, great. I'm going to add that to my queue. Stephanie: All right. And then the last one that I've recently started asking, what is the number one tool or app or technology that you use day to day that's most helpful to you or that you either learn the most from or that you loved the most? Sarah: Yeah. It's got to be Instagram. I wish I had a more creative answer but ... Stephanie: No, I love Instagram. Sarah: ... I learn so much from others and from incredible resources and I think most recently I think the Black Lives Matter movement has been an eyeopening one for me in so many ways and I think in so many ways that we're trying to even as a company make sure that we are sustaining that moment, but really have been grateful for that platform as a source of education. Stephanie: Yeah, yeah, completely agree. All right, Sarah, well, it's been so much fun talking to you about this. Where can people find out more about you and Blueland? Sarah: Yeah, so, people can check out our products and learn more about our products at blueland.com. You can also follow us along @blueland. And I also post lifestyle tips frequently to my personal account, @spaiji. That's S-P-A-I-J-I. Stephanie: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show and we will definitely be following along in your journey. Sarah: Amazing. Thank you so much for having me.  

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Peter: So Sarah, tell me, you're teaching right now, could you give me your opinion on computer use in the classroom, like using it in your classes, what do you think about that?Sarah: I think it's good when there's certain activities that are related to using computers. But when you're trying to do an activity that's not on a computer in a classroom that has computers, it's very difficult to get your students' attention because they're often distracted by doing something else on the internet, they shouldn't be doing.Peter: Oh, I totally agree, I often have that problem, it feels like I'm speaking to a crowd of ghosts. I have no idea that they're talking to me or looking at me or doing anything that they should be doing, so it's really hard. I find it really hard. But I agree also, I think computers can be so useful in the classroom, especially if you have to do a specific activity where students have to find information and listening activities where they can listen to individual listenings and things like that, you know.Sarah: Yeah. So what do you think about cell phones in the classroom, do you let your students use them? Because maybe they have an electronic dictionary of some sort on their mobile phone. So is that okay, or no cell phones, what do you do?Peter: Ah, that's a frustrating topic. I think sometimes I find it really useful if students have their smartphones with them and they can do a quick online search of something that they want to do, especially words they want to look up. So the dictionary use I think is quite useful for students. But on the other hand I always have to kind of keep a watchful eyeand see what students exactly are up to, you know, they sometimes start playing a game or they sit on Facebook and sit writing notes to their friends and messages come and go. So yeah, I'm always not sure exactly how to handle it, but most of the time my students are pretty good. So they seem to use it mostly for dictionary.Sarah: Oh, that's good, yeah.Peter: Yeah. How about your students?Sarah: Yeah, some of my students use it for ... they have a dictionary on there that they use. But I think though, most of them have a separate electronic dictionary that's only a dictionary. And I much prefer it when they use that because then I know they are really just looking at a word and not on Facebook or doing something else like you just mentioned, so.Peter: Have you ever taken cell phones away in class from students?Sarah: No, not yet, I haven't had to, usually when I walk around the room they put it away very quickly if they are doing something they are not supposed to be doing. And if they are using it to look up a word then they have no problem with me seeing what they are doing, so, end of class.Peter: I heard about a teacher the other day, he said he's got a basket that he collects cell phones with at the beginning of class, and he puts them on his front desk and then at the end of class he gives them back. But I thought, wow, that's quite strict I thought. I don't know if I would do that, how about you?Sarah: Yeah. I would be worried that some students would forget their phones and then the problem with trying to get them their phone back and all of that, it might not be worth the hassle.Peter: Yeah, I probably would agree with that.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Peter: So Sarah, tell me, you're teaching right now, could you give me your opinion on computer use in the classroom, like using it in your classes, what do you think about that?Sarah: I think it's good when there's certain activities that are related to using computers. But when you're trying to do an activity that's not on a computer in a classroom that has computers, it's very difficult to get your students' attention because they're often distracted by doing something else on the internet, they shouldn't be doing.Peter: Oh, I totally agree, I often have that problem, it feels like I'm speaking to a crowd of ghosts. I have no idea that they're talking to me or looking at me or doing anything that they should be doing, so it's really hard. I find it really hard. But I agree also, I think computers can be so useful in the classroom, especially if you have to do a specific activity where students have to find information and listening activities where they can listen to individual listenings and things like that, you know.Sarah: Yeah. So what do you think about cell phones in the classroom, do you let your students use them? Because maybe they have an electronic dictionary of some sort on their mobile phone. So is that okay, or no cell phones, what do you do?Peter: Ah, that's a frustrating topic. I think sometimes I find it really useful if students have their smartphones with them and they can do a quick online search of something that they want to do, especially words they want to look up. So the dictionary use I think is quite useful for students. But on the other hand I always have to kind of keep a watchful eyeand see what students exactly are up to, you know, they sometimes start playing a game or they sit on Facebook and sit writing notes to their friends and messages come and go. So yeah, I'm always not sure exactly how to handle it, but most of the time my students are pretty good. So they seem to use it mostly for dictionary.Sarah: Oh, that's good, yeah.Peter: Yeah. How about your students?Sarah: Yeah, some of my students use it for ... they have a dictionary on there that they use. But I think though, most of them have a separate electronic dictionary that's only a dictionary. And I much prefer it when they use that because then I know they are really just looking at a word and not on Facebook or doing something else like you just mentioned, so.Peter: Have you ever taken cell phones away in class from students?Sarah: No, not yet, I haven't had to, usually when I walk around the room they put it away very quickly if they are doing something they are not supposed to be doing. And if they are using it to look up a word then they have no problem with me seeing what they are doing, so, end of class.Peter: I heard about a teacher the other day, he said he's got a basket that he collects cell phones with at the beginning of class, and he puts them on his front desk and then at the end of class he gives them back. But I thought, wow, that's quite strict I thought. I don't know if I would do that, how about you?Sarah: Yeah. I would be worried that some students would forget their phones and then the problem with trying to get them their phone back and all of that, it might not be worth the hassle.Peter: Yeah, I probably would agree with that.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Peter: So Sarah, tell me, you're teaching right now, could you give me your opinion on computer use in the classroom, like using it in your classes, what do you think about that?Sarah: I think it's good when there's certain activities that are related to using computers. But when you're trying to do an activity that's not on a computer in a classroom that has computers, it's very difficult to get your students' attention because they're often distracted by doing something else on the internet, they shouldn't be doing.Peter: Oh, I totally agree, I often have that problem, it feels like I'm speaking to a crowd of ghosts. I have no idea that they're talking to me or looking at me or doing anything that they should be doing, so it's really hard. I find it really hard. But I agree also, I think computers can be so useful in the classroom, especially if you have to do a specific activity where students have to find information and listening activities where they can listen to individual listenings and things like that, you know.Sarah: Yeah. So what do you think about cell phones in the classroom, do you let your students use them? Because maybe they have an electronic dictionary of some sort on their mobile phone. So is that okay, or no cell phones, what do you do?Peter: Ah, that's a frustrating topic. I think sometimes I find it really useful if students have their smartphones with them and they can do a quick online search of something that they want to do, especially words they want to look up. So the dictionary use I think is quite useful for students. But on the other hand I always have to kind of keep a watchful eyeand see what students exactly are up to, you know, they sometimes start playing a game or they sit on Facebook and sit writing notes to their friends and messages come and go. So yeah, I'm always not sure exactly how to handle it, but most of the time my students are pretty good. So they seem to use it mostly for dictionary.Sarah: Oh, that's good, yeah.Peter: Yeah. How about your students?Sarah: Yeah, some of my students use it for ... they have a dictionary on there that they use. But I think though, most of them have a separate electronic dictionary that's only a dictionary. And I much prefer it when they use that because then I know they are really just looking at a word and not on Facebook or doing something else like you just mentioned, so.Peter: Have you ever taken cell phones away in class from students?Sarah: No, not yet, I haven't had to, usually when I walk around the room they put it away very quickly if they are doing something they are not supposed to be doing. And if they are using it to look up a word then they have no problem with me seeing what they are doing, so, end of class.Peter: I heard about a teacher the other day, he said he's got a basket that he collects cell phones with at the beginning of class, and he puts them on his front desk and then at the end of class he gives them back. But I thought, wow, that's quite strict I thought. I don't know if I would do that, how about you?Sarah: Yeah. I would be worried that some students would forget their phones and then the problem with trying to get them their phone back and all of that, it might not be worth the hassle.Peter: Yeah, I probably would agree with that.

Kathy: Welcome to Kathy Santo’s Dog Sense, I'm your host Kathy Santo and I'm here to teach you everything I've learned in my over three decades of training dogs, their families, competing in dog sports, writing about dogs, and being a guest on radio and TV shows. And I am with one of my trainers, Sarah out in Colorado and we are doing an episode on traveling, because I don't know about you Sarah, but I've traveled a ton with my dogs.  Sarah: Yeah. So specifically, we'll be talking about if you were to go on a long road trip with your dog. We'll touch on a little bit of if you are traveling on an airplane with your dog, but mainly we'll go over our tried and true tips. I mean I've traveled halfway across the country with my three dogs multiple times, and I'm sure you've done a ton of traveling with your dogs as well. Kathy: I have. And back in the day when I was competing a lot, there were a lot of airline flights as well. So yeah, a lot to say about that. And I think that this topic came up because we hear it really two times of the year. One is over the holidays. Everybody wants to travel with their dog on the holidays, but another popular time is during the summer. You guys get that vacation. And the first thing I always say to people is, “How much traveling has your dog done?”  Sarah: Exactly! Kathy: So you get the dog who maybe comes to class once a week or he goes to the vet once a year and now they want to go on a road trip. And I'm like, “No, you have to teach your dog to get used to traveling!” Because it's a lot. And I'm like, “Are there some dogs that'll roll with it?” Yeah, absolutely. But it's an experience they have to get used to.” People have dogs who are fearful of cars, they get that. But people who haven't had that experience don't understand that a dog who loves a trip down the block or to the dog school may not be comfortable with something that is that long in one space. So you’ve got to get them used to it. Sarah: Yeah, and they don't think about all of the safety, kind of, like, the preparations that you need to take. Not only just safety, but also, if it's a really long road trip, all the prep that goes into, like, their food, the water, making sure you have proper identification, emergency vet contact information. We're going to go over all of that. But there is so much prep for safety as well when traveling with your dog that's really, really important. People just think they can throw their dog in the car and go. And some dogs might be okay with that, but most of them need a little bit more prep than that. Kathy: Yeah. And if you think you’re going to do that and you do, you find out pretty quickly that you made a big error in judgment. Alright! So the first thing I think we would both agree on is that if you're going to take a road trip of any great length, and for me, I think anything over two hours is going to be something that a lot of dogs need to get used to. So I'm not saying go on two hour trips, but I am saying go beyond the comfort zone. If your dog only goes to pick up your kids at school, you know, you got to get some longer trips going. So that would be my first thing. Prepare your dog with the length of travel and, also, prepare them for the different environments. You know, if you're going to a hotel and they have slippery floors, or your dog's going to be in an elevator. Like these are the things that you need to get the dog comfortable with before you decide to take them out and about. Sarah: And also just being in the car, too. So of course, we're going to touch on this as well, but safety, whether they're in a crate or in a crash proof harness. Also, so I don’t know if you've noticed this, but my dogs, when they're in their crates in the car, they go into kind of like a trance. Like, they just go to sleep. Even if in the rare case they are in the backseat of the car and not in their crates, they lay right down and they go right to sleep because that's kind of what I've taught them to do in the car. So, if you have a dog who is not used these longer road trips, a lot of times what you'll see is a lot of heavy panting, there'll be a lot of drooling. Like, they'll have those anxiety responses to it because they're not used to it. Kathy: When I was a kid, we had a great Pyrenees, Teddy, and we used to go down the shore, and this is before seat belts. Sort of before any car safety. She's in the back of the station wagon, panting the entire two and a half hours down the shore, panting and drooling. And did I mention it was the summer? And it was, she's a great Pyrenees and the hair and her breath, windows were down, she gets carsick, she vomited at least three times before we were out of our town. Sarah: Having the supplies to clean up the vomit too. Because sometimes, like what my senior dog Jakey does, when we're on a winding roads, is he will vomit right where the seat belt attachment is and he'll vomit just right in that hole. So it goes to the bottom of the car and we got to pull to the side of the road, rip the car seats out to get all that vomit out. Lots of fun. Better to be prepared for those kinds of things than be surprised by them. Kathy: Yeah, and I was always the vomit cleaner upper.  It'd be like, “You wanted the dog. It's your dog.” Sarah: Yeah. So I'm always the one cleaning up the vomit or the diarrhea. Kathy: Our dogs like their crates, because at home they like their crates. It's a safe spot. It's a cozy spot. And they're used to traveling in a crate in the car.  And some dogs like their crates at home, but you put in the car they're like, “What the hell?” So there's that acclimation period where you start putting a crate in the car and feed them and going for trips. It's like, I'm a crate proponent, and if you don’t do a crate, you do a seat belt. But I feel like, you have to keep your dog safe and you safe in the event of a crash so that they don't catapult into you or your passengers. Sarah: Yeah, and the way that you can prep for that is, you know you have the road trip coming up even, and I understand, you know, it's a pain in the butt to have the crates in the car all the time and in the trunk or in the backseat, whatever it is. But the week before, maybe two weeks before, put the crate in the car and every time you need to go somewhere with your dog, whether it's class at the school, the vet, the whatever, you're going out for a hike. For that week or two beforehand, practice being in the crate when traveling so that the crate doesn't have to be in there all the time. I understand it can be a pain, but at least set your dog up for success and have him practice it a week or two before you need to go on that long road trip. Kathy: Especially if your dog is used to getting in a car and going to the vet or someplace they don’t like to go. So do some road trips where it winds up being a field, or going for a swim in the lake, or just getting out and having steak or a hamburger. Like, go to the drive-through, because I want the dog to say, “There is a very good chance that this is going to end in something awesome!” Versus what they think now, which is, “This is going to end something terrible.” Also, when I’m using a crate, I cover it with a sheet. Obviously there's airflow and it's not summer and there's still getting AC. But I just like to take away their sight of things because I had a border collie he made himself carsick because he'd watch the cars go by and he’d whip his head around, and he’d be, like, “Waah!” All right, so there's so many things to talk about. Let's talk about what's in your wallet. Remember that commercial, “What's in your wallet?” What's in my wallet is a recent photo of my dog, a copy of his health certificate. I don't get them in sooner than 10 days, so I have that. I also have the emergency 24/7 vet that's going to be in the area that I'm visiting. Sarah: Yep. Super important. Kathy: Prep that ahead. And I, well it's not in my wallet. It's in the glove box in an envelope or it's zip tied to the crate in a clear plastic, sheet. You know those binder sheets for kids at school? And that's the emergency contact info. And that is something that everybody should get in the lesson sheet library. Sarah: Yup. We have it in there. If you guys can't find it, let us know. We'll send you it. But that has all that information on both the front on my crates. It has a dog's name, four different emergency contact people, any medications, any behavioral issues that if a first responder needs to know if your dog is really fearful, you know, if they should be left in the crate if possible. And it also goes into saying, “Please don't bring my dog to a shelter or a pound, please bring them to the nearest boarding facility. I will pay all fees...whatever,” has their normal vet's information. So that, if there is an injury, they can call your vet and get all the information they need. I think that’s all. Kathy: And about a zillion people that he can call. Sarah: Yeah! There's like four or five, I think there's four different spots for contact people on there. I would make sure that you have people in your home area and then people where you're going as well, depending on where you are in the road trip, where you might need help for your dog. Kathy: And I do crates too. I mean, I do seat belts as well, so it's on the front of the crate. If your dog is gonna seat belt, it goes in the glove box, it goes in there and it's in an envelope marked Dog Emergency Info, because first responders will look in your purse and your wallet and your glove box for information on you. I also crate my dogs with their leash on. They’re in a crate with a leash on, they're in the seat belt with leash on,  because, again, in the event of an emergency, I know that the first responders are not going to be able to find the leash and put it on my dog’s collar. I want the dog ready to go and get out of there as fast as possible. This all came really clear to me when I was down in Florida. I would say it was 1990 I had a student and she had two cattle dogs. They were amazing, and her favorite was Wanda. And Wanda sat in the front seat with her and then her other dog, it was a puppy, the naughty puppy, he was in a crate. And she was in a very bad car accident. So bad, as a matter of fact, that they had to airlift her to a trauma center, but they couldn't, because her dog was guarding her. And the dog that was in the front seat, not in a seat belt, not in a crate. And so what they had to do was they had to noose the dog. They had to wait for animal control, it was about a half an hour, it’s on I95, it's crazy traffic, and they can't help her because this dog is trying to get to them. So they have to wait for animal control to noose the dog and take the dog out, and then get her. Sarah: Not only to delay her getting medical care. But think of how terrifying that experience was for the dog who was stuck in the front seat. All these strangers in, like, fire suits are trying to like touch her owner. The dog was guarding the owner. I mean that could have been resolved with the crate. The puppy in the crate in the back was fine. If that dog had been a crate, yeah, it would've still been really scary experience, but it would not have been THAT traumatizing. Kathy: Yeah. It was terrible. And having gone to a lot of dog shows, because when I competed, it was in obedience, and I've seen the rollovers, I've seen that crap. I mean, basically you're in the car, there's some degree of risk. I wear a seat belt, my kids wear a seat belt and so my dog is going to wear something to keep them safe as well. And I'm just, I'm really strong about it. And I have a lot of students who are in law enforcement and they always say, “I wish every single person who traveled with a dog understood this and followed this protocol because it would make our jobs so much easier.” Because, honestly, if the police officer or the EMT wants to go in the car and your dog is growling, like, they're going to have to choose themselves. Because what are they going to do? Get bitten? Sarah: Yup. And with that goes the ID tags and if your dog is micro-chipped, making sure that information is up to date before you start traveling. Because a lot of times, you can do, like, the yearly update on the microchips each year. But call them and double check, because if for some reason the dog's collar breaks, the leash comes off, whatever, in an accident and they don't have the tags on them, the only way a local vet or shelter is going to be able to ID them is with that microchip. Kathy: Exactly. And make sure the collar says “Reward” and has the cell number on it. And I was talking about that in another podcast. I don't want somebody to know my dog's name, because my dogs are really well trained, and they're super cool. I think. Yeah, like, if somebody was like, “Hey, I think I want a dog and look, this is so convenient!”  Sarah: No one would want my dogs. Kathy: Well then, you just put their real names Sarah: I’ll put their real names. Kathy: One number off. Sarah: Sure. If you can pick up the leash, you can have them. Good luck! Kathy: It's the Jack challenge. I love that! Hashtag (#jackchallenge)! So we put “Reward” because I feel like it motivates people to call you and give the dog back. And, again, a microchip, if you have one in...the guy who gets your dog doesn't have a microchip wand, so I want somebody to call me in real time and not wait until a vet office opens the next morning, or on Monday if it's a weekend. And the reason I have a picture in my wallet is because you think you're going to have it on your phone, but if you lost your phone, or the phone is dead, right? You’ve got to have something physical or I'm sure you could get somebody's computer and go on Facebook and get a picture of your dog, but how much time are you losing? And that's I think another show that we should do, Sarah, on how to recover a lost dog. It's a good topic. Write that down as one of the next ones we do. I think that's going to be great. Sarah: Absolutely. All right, so the next one is something that you can maybe talk from experience on if you've ever done this, but, so the bag etiquette. So traveling with your dog, if they are, I know you did a lot of work with, if the dog was in like a small carry on bag, like a traveling bag. What is the etiquette for that? Kathy: My dogs have traveled both ways. The majority of my competition dogs we're flying under the plane. And travel back in the 80s, a little bit different. I mean it wasn't, there was no TSA. It was, like, you could bring a chicken or two or five. Nobody really cared, you could do whatever you want. But there were rules that I followed for myself about my dogs, and so the first thing was I made sure that they didn’t have breakfast on a morning flight. I also chose a flight because I was in Florida that was the coolest part of the day. So, making sure it was a cool part of the day where I arrived. So a lot of times I was going out to the West Coast or there was a national in Vegas, I picked a night flight out of West Palm, so I would get into that area at night. It wasn't so much your destination temperature as where you were going to take them. The dog would be on the tarmac, and you didn't want them to overheat. Plus, there are regulations about how hot or how cool it can be in order to fly dog. On top of the crate I would put a FedEx clear pouch and I put a note in it that said, “My name is Cookie,” and I taped cookies on top. And the reason I did it, because none of my dogs were ever named Cookie, but the word cookie to them was really interesting. And I didn't want to have their name because it would be like, “Rover, Rover, Rover, Rover,” and it might be negative, right? So my dogs got treats, everybody's saying cookie, and that they loved it. I didn't put water in a bowl, it was like water, liquid water. I would freeze these little plastic things that they had in the crates if I had a dog who wouldn't eat it and I pop that in right before they took the dog. I would not board the plane until I saw the crate loaded. And a lot of times I would get into it with the desk agents, or at the gate agents, they'd be like, “You need to get on the plane.” And I'm like, “Not until I see my dog.” And they're like, “Oh, it’s going to leave without you.” I'm like,”Well then you'd be leaving without my dog.” And then I show him a picture of my dog and they're like, “Oh!” Then my next stop, once I got on the plane was a hard left and go to see the captain because again, back then, you could basically try to fly the plane. They were, like, “Yeah, go for it. Sit in the cockpit, take a picture!” It was crazy. And I'd say, “Hey, my dog is on board and here's a picture.” And they would be, like, “Oh, my God! I have a dog, too!” And they’d make sure that the dog was down there and the temperature was right. So your dog is the last thing to get loaded and the first thing to come off. So I’d make sure my seat was an aisle, so I could, you know, whip up some tears and get them to let me out first “That’s my dog! I’m so worried!” So that's how you fly when your dog is going underneath. It's completely stressful and it never gets better. And if you have a dog who's bomb proof, they can go. Oh! Also I would put cotton in their ears because you see the guys up on the tarmac, they have those heads cause it's really loud for your dog. So you pop those in and get them a little bit of relief. I also did a really big blanket, so they can hide their head under it. And my dogs flew like pros. They loved it. They were, they came out with like “Eh, it was a great flight, didn't get any in-service stuff. I'm okay.” Some dogs are not suited for that. So then, if I'm going to fly a dog, like on book tour, I took a dog named Danny with me, and I had a Sherpa bag for him, and that is a brand name, and I really like that brand, very sturdy. And a week before a book tour, which meant that I had to fly to a different city for two weeks and I took him, he was seven months old. It was crazy. He was just perfect, but I was crazy for taking someone’s dog.  Sarah: Barely potty trained! Kathy: And then I just had him at his house with his owners. He would jump in and out of that bag and great things would happen. So he's acclimated to it. I had them carry him around the house and then he gets used to it. Being carried in it. Sarah: That sensation of being carried in it, yeah. Kathy: If they just go in a stationary, that's one thing. But when it's over your shoulder and they're jostling around, that's a whole different thing. So you've got to make sure that you get them to that as well.  Sarah: Yep. Kathy: Alright. So that is what you have for ID. That is how you get them in a Sherpa bag. Let’s talk about barking. Because I’ve been on a flight where dogs were in bags barking. We're not even going to cover the service dogs.  Sarah: Yeah, let's not go there. They're not on this episode. Kathy: Not on this episode, but we will. If your dog is going to be on a plane and in a bag, and I know it's not a service dog, it's just traveling in the cabin, your responsibility is to make sure your dog is a good traveler. Barking the whole four hour flight ,or six hour flight is not okay! Sarah: It’s awful  Kathy: And if it's barking that long, it's not happy. So do your homework and get better at doing homework and maybe make the decision that your dog doesn't have to travel with you. I'm like, unless you're moving. Maybe they stay home and you have your vacation and then they're much happier that way. So that's how I feel about that. I just got a Gunner Kennel. Sarah: You did?! Oh, we didn't talk about that,  Kathy: I know you’re someone who appreciates that. Sarah: Oh God, it's okay. One day, one day. Right now what I've got is all right. So basically what I have for my two dogs are Ruff Tuff Kennels or Ruff Land Kennels. Another really great brand for if you're looking for a crash proof crate is a Gunner Kennel, like Kathy just mentioned. There's also Impact Cates. There are a bunch of options. Kathy: Vario Cages Sarah: Vario Cages. Yep, that's another one.  Kathy: Orion.  Sarah: Orion's are good. Do your research. Don't just get a plain wire or a plain plastic crate. They'll just crush with your dog in it. So make sure that if you are looking for a crash proof crate, you do your research and you make sure that you find a kennel that can withstand a crash, basically. Kathy: Now let's talk about sticker shock. Yeah. You're probably in your mind saying, “Well, the Midwest Wire crate was like a hundred bucks,” and the plastic Vari kennel, not Verio, Vari Kennel. That two piece looks like a clam and you put together little screws that was like $89, like, “Oh, maybe we can invest in this.” And then you go and you find out that your a medium G1 Gunner Crate is going to be $579. Now, once you pick yourself up off the floor, I want you to be realistic and understand that if you're in a crash and your dog is injured, you are walking in the door to an emergency vet clinic with $1,000 on the table. And it just goes from there. Like, I am telling you, we're not making this shit up. Like, it’s expensive to have a dog with an injury! Plus, forget the finances. This is the beloved pet for you and your family, and your responsibility is to keep it safe. So, no pressure. But yeah, when you get something it should be... like, I see people all the time with wire crates in the back of their car and those, those fabric tent crates, they...don’t even pretend! Sarah: It's not the safest thing. Insider tip! So if you are going to get the Ruff Land Kennels, they're probably the most cost effective version of all the crash proof ones. L.L. Bean puts them on sale for like 20% off every once in a while. So if you scroll about their website, get an email notification for when they go on sale, you can get them for 20% off. Another great place is Facebook marketplace. Or, you know, eBay, Craigslist, you can find used ones as well if you are looking for them. But it is like Kathy said, it is so worth the investment not only because, like, I love my dogs so much and I don't ever want them to get hurt in an accident, but also, like she said, like when you walk into the vet's office, if you did have them in a wire crate or a plastic Vari Kennel that just crushed them inside of it in the accident, your expenses are going to be beyond what it costs to get the crash proof kennel. Kathy: Easily. Sarah: Easily. If you’re smart and have pet insurance. Even with that. Kathy: There is a Facebook group that you should all join. It's called Dog Sport Vehicle Ideas and Setups. Dog Sport Vehicle Ideas and Setups. It's amazing. And they talk about this stuff they talk about how to set it up. They even have, by car model, files where you could see what people did in their cars to put in the crates and still have room for people in the car. Sarah: Yeah. Facebook is a huge resource for that kind of thing. So we've gone over, alright, so you'll say you got the crash proof. Great. Or you've got the same thing with the seat belts. Just do your research, make sure that they're safe. So let’s go into it when we go into car trips now, what to do on the road? Kathy: Yeah, let's go into car trips. Hopefully you've taught your dog to potty on leash. The bane of my existence is people with yards who've never taught their dogs to potty on leash. And then they go on a trip and the dog won’t go to the bathroom and they're at the, you know, the side of the road, pull over and use the bathrooms. And then there's a field for your dog to go and their holding the leash and the dog won't go. And the dog, he's like, “You need to move over there for me to go.” And we talked about this in the puppy potty training podcast, too. Boy, that's hard to say. Where we talk about the first nine months of your puppy's life, most of his potty experiences should be on a leash. So he gets used to going six feet away from you. Sarah: Water intake. Kathy: Yes. Let's talk about what type of water. Like, if I'm traveling, every dog show I went to, I got bottled water, distilled water, because I know that some dogs are sensitive to what water they drink and you don't want to go, especially if you're on holiday. Right? So your going to your aunt’s or your cousin's house, and they're all so happy to see the dog. And then your dog has diarrhea for four days. And it's because of the water change. So I always get distilled water. Sarah: Yeah. It's not something a pet owner would necessarily think of. Oh, you know, the water's making their stomach hurt, not something you necessarily think of. Definitely bring some bottles of water, like you said. Don't rely on, like, using your mother's dog's food for your dog. An abrupt switch in the dog's food like that. You will have stomach or GI issues without it. It's a very rare that a dog can switch food like that quickly like that. So absolutely bring your dogs food with you. So depending on what you feed them, whether it's kibble or raw, kibble, obviously, is an easy way, is an easy thing to bring. If you do bring raw, what I like to do is I bring a specific cooler just for their raw food. A lot of times I'll shove it all into Kongs or any kind of food toy where you can freeze the food in there so that when we are traveling, if we're doing multi-day trips, it gives them something to do in a crate and kind of earn their food and makes them work for it. So having those frozen in just a cooler in the car is a really easy way to keep your dog busy. What other food tips do you have? Kathy: You know, if you wanted to bring enough food for the trip on the first day and you had previously scouted out where you can get this food. Or maybe you have somebody you're going to get the food for you. You could also ship food. So if it's dry, so you can have a bag of it. I feel like the raw thing, it's so mainstream now, or almost mainstream that you could look at the brand that you use online and find out where there's a dealer near the person you're going to be with. I'd also get your vet recommendation on things you should bring in case of that emergency. Like, diarrhea or vomiting or whatever, because there's gotta be a first aid emergency kit with you in the car and you should also move that into when you're at somebody's house. Sarah: Yup. Okay. So let's say if you were staying in a hotel room, what are some things that you had to, I think that you've, you've told me a pretty good story about making sure to check under the beds when you go into hotel rooms. Kathy: Yes. This I learned from my dog show time, because it was every weekend we were at a different sleazy hotel. My favorite one, remember there was a chain called Ramada?  Sarah: Yeah.  Kathy: Is there still a chain called Ramada?  Sarah: Might be. I don’t know. Kathy: Ramada Inn. Anyway, apparently this, this particular one went under and the owner just unplugged a few of the letters of the sign. And so it was the “Rama” Inn.  Sarah: Oh, my God. Kathy: That's what I pulled up to at night. I like the, “Oh, this is gonna be bad.” So one of the things I would do is, before I take my dogs into the room, I would have them in the car with whoever it was traveling with me and I would go up in the room and I had a flashlight because we didn't have cell phones with lights on them...or cell phones at all. And I would get on my hands and knees and I would flashlight the entire room. Not just the ceiling lights but the flashlight. Because you would be surprised how many pieces of medication I would find in hotel rooms. I'd find them at the nightstand next to the bed. I’d find them in the bathroom, under the bed. I'd find rat poisoning. I'd find insect traps. Like, so much crap you cannot believe, because housekeeping, I mean unless you're at the four seasons, is probably not up to the standards of keeping your dog safe.  Sarah: Yep.  Kathy: Also, when I was in the room, if I had to take a shower, my dog would be crated. I'm just not going to risk it. And that goes for somebody's house, too, because, you know, you go to visit your sister and maybe she had a friend over. Maybe they take Xanax or Prozac or whatever the heck they take to get through these kinds of visits. And so they're going to drop stuff, too. Blood pressure medication. I have a friend who's an emergency room nurse and she's hard to talk to because she's seen everything kill something. Like, “Oh, see that paper clip? Somebody choked on that!” I'm like, “Stop talking to me!” But I am that... I'm the equivalent of that in dog world, because I've seen it all. And even though it's a fluke, one is too many. So do your due diligence, whether it's a hotel room, whether it's your family's house, you've got to be alert for this stuff because it happens. And I've seen it happen. I told you we're going to start a show. There's a show called Adam Ruins Everything and he blows up myths. I'm going to make one, Kathy Ruins Everything. Sarah: Everything About Dog Ownership That Could Go Wrong, Kathy's Seen It. Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. Kathy Ruins Trips With Your Dog. Sarah: Here are all of the things that could go wrong when on a trip with your dog. But I mean, I'd rather, I'd rather know from like, you've been in this for 30 years. Like, I'd rather know from someone, all the things that could go wrong so that when I go to travel with my dog, I'm doing everything I can to keep them safe. Yes, there could still be like some crazy unicorn thing that happens, but at least I know that I checked under the bed for that, you know, leftover medication or whatever, and my dog didn't find it and get sick. Kathy: Okay. Wait, how about this? Bring multiple leashes. Sarah: Yeah. What if they chew their leash? Or what if it breaks or you know, there could be 10 million things that could happen. Alight, you and I, we're about to go down a rabbit hole. You and I could go over all the things that could go wrong. You know, you've seen my training bag. I have extras of everything. Kathy: Yeah. I've seen people take belts off their body and put it through a dog’s collar. I saw a guy with a shoelace! Sarah: Yeah. We're not even, yeah. We're not even going over like how you should be training your dog while traveling with them. We're just going over basic, basic, like, safety stuff just to make sure you and your dog make it through the trip successfully. Kathy: Everything to keep your dog safe. We have so many topics out. We're just going to sit there one day and do a 12 hour recording session. Sarah: Yeah. I'm coming up again first week of December. So maybe we'll bang out like six or seven of them. Kathy: Yeah. And it’ll be great because it'll be in the same room. Yeah. And then our audio, will only be one file.  Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Kathy: You get ideas, I get ideas from this and you're writing them down, I know. But we want to hear ideas from people who are listening to, so we want to know if you'd like this format. What your suggestions are, what your topics are, what do you want to hear about? And we'll talk about it. Because, I always like to say my brain, as far as dog stuff, it's like this giant library and I don't always go down all the aisles, but the books are still there. And if you remind me, I'll remember and I'll go down there and all this stuff will pop up more than you thought was possible.  Sarah: Exactly.  Kathy: Alright, so we're good? Sarah: Yeah.  Kathy: As always, if you like what you hear, jump over to whatever subscription service you downloaded from and like, rate, subscribe, tell a friend, and share this episode somewhere to help spread the word so we can continue to create an awesome community of dog lovers and learners. Happy training, everyone!

Transcript Kathy: Welcome to Kathy Santo’s Dog Sense. I'm your host Kathy Santo, and I'm here to teach you everything I've learned in my over three decades of training dogs, their families, competing in dog sports, writing about dogs and being a guest on radio and TV shows. And I'm here with one of my trainers staff in Colorado. And wait, did you guys get snow?  Sarah: Oh my God, we got like two feet of snow right now. It's awesome. Kathy: Oh my gosh, I'm glad you said “Aw”, I was thinking “ful”, she said awesome. I'm like, that's why she should be in Colorado and I should be here in Jersey where it was like 52 today. Sarah: I know you guys have some nice weather. I got some of the pictures from the teams today. It looked really nice there. Kathy: Yeah, it's, it's really great. And the dogs are loving it because if it feels like spring and, you know how we have a few dogs who definitely don't like the cold weather, so we're planning some extra indoor activities at daycare for them. Fun, warm activity. What else did we do today? Oh, we did our last day of Thanksgiving photo shoots. Sarah: Yeah, those have been coming out amazing. Kathy: Aren’t they great? Wait ‘til see the holiday winter one. Oh my gosh. I'll send you pictures. Sarah: I can't wait for that.  Kathy: It's a big surprise. All right. So anyway, today we are tasked with talking about potty training. Sarah: Not only is potty training but realistic expectations for potty training. So of course, like, we go over what the kind of general process is, but real life training your puppy potty training is a little bit different. Kathy: It is. And I think I really feel like people have unrealistic expectations. My personal feeling is that it takes until the puppy is six months old to be, like, done with it. Now that said, I've had puppies much younger, be perfect. As I a matter of fact, I've never had a puppy take that long. But I'm a trainer, you know, and that's our, it's my jam. Like, I'm watching the, I know what to do. So, but I think a realistic expectation for someone who's not a trainer would be by six months you are done, and there's a lot of things that you could do to make that work easier and there is a lot of things that you could do to make it take much, much longer.. Sarah: Exactly. Kathy: All right, so let's start back at the breeder. All right. So my breeder, one of my breeders, she has a litter of golden puppies and, I think, they are now seven, eight days old and she's, maybe there are two weeks old...Anyway, I think they're two weeks old, and she's introducing the concept of potty-ing in a certain area right now. So they had wee pads down and they're learning to look for that to go. And then from there there'll be moved to, in a couple of weeks, they’ll be moved to a different surface and then learn to go there. And that's one thing she really values is sending a puppy home from the litter box who already has the idea started.  Sarah: That is incredible. I didn't realize that they were doing it that young.  Kathy: Yeah, it's amazing. And that's where I got Indy from and he, I didn't have to do any housebreaking he gave into my life an 8 week old puppy, he's like, “Hey, I go outside, this is the door?” I'm like, “Oh yeah, sure dude, like, let's go outside.” When I also did was I took the same materials she used to housebreak them and I got a bag of it. So I had an area in my yard and that's where he went. So that’s, you know, your best shot is you're having a breeder who is working on that for you. Now the worst case scenario is you have a dog who's already learned, whether it's a puppy or a shelter dog, rescue dog, learn to go anywhere.  Sarah: Yup.  Kathy: Pet store dogs. It's terrible because they're in a cage, they have to go and that's where they go. And then we want you to housebreak your dog and use crate training, and the dog is like, “Oh cool. The indoor potty”. So that tends to be a challenge too. So those are the best case and the worst case scenario, but we can get it done no matter what's going on. Let me tell you an interesting story before we get into what you would do for it, a more typical dog. So I had a client come to me and the dog was peeing and pooping in the crate, it was complete reverse housebreaking they take it out, they'd monitor it, it wouldn't go. The minute that dog went into crate, and they did all the things correctly. They tried a plastic crate, they tried a wire crate, they tried a smaller crate, like, they did everything right, and this dog, this dog could be against a wall in a crate and go to the bathroom. So we use the hay trick. Now I learned about the hay trick back in the eighties, I didn't invent it. I can't remember who did. We'll give credit when I remember. Do you remember who it was I told you about the other day? No? Anyway, so basically I got some straw, it was around Halloween so it was great. Broke down a hay bale, put it in the crate up to like hip level of this dog and I put him in there. And because the hay was around him, sort of like hugging him like a nest, he stopped going to the bathroom in the crate. And I made it a bigger space so I get more hay in it and the dog didn't go. So it's hard to get people to get on board with that because, obviously, when you take the puppy out, hay is going to come out the front. But I prepped it. I put down like a big trash bag and a sheet and then I put the crate over that, and then after four or five, six days of perfect, no potty-ing in the crate, then I started taking the hay out by the handfuls. Morning I take some out, at night I take some out, until we were just down to a crate with a few pieces of hay in the bottom and it was done. That was it.  Sarah: That's incredible.  Kathy: You can also use it for anxiety, for dogs who freak out in the crate.  Sarah: Yeah. Kathy: Alright! So now you have a good example and a bad example and what to do in an extreme example. Let's start more with your typical puppy.  Sarah: Yep.  Kathy: So I believe in crate training and I know you do too. So when I'm not home, when I'm sleeping, when I can have my eye on my puppy, it is in a crate.  Sarah: Yep.  Kathy: It's appropriately sized. I am monitoring to make sure that I have met all my puppy's needs. Like he is potty before I put him in, and  know how long I can keep them in. Sarah: Do you want to touch on the size of the crate really quick? Kathy: Yes. So I would like something that the dog can stand up and turn it around in comfortably, but I don't want them to be able to use one end as the bathroom and the other end as the TV room.  Sarah: Got it. Kathy: That'd be just one area. And again, I'm counting on the fact that your dog is uncomfortable being next to his waste. Some puppies come from what we call a dirty litter. And the mom wasn't cleaning them because you know, the mom has to clean them for the first two weeks. She licks them to stimulate them to go to the bathroom. They don't have the reflexes to do it on their own. And so some moms weren't great at that and when the puppies actually went, she wasn't cleaning up after them either and they would just got used to laying in it. So if you have a puppy like that, it's a little more challenging. And then I would try the hay trick. Of course, making sure your dog doesn't want to eat the hay.  Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Kathy: So it's a nice small area. And I also feed my dogs in their crates. So if they're going to have a meal in a crate, it's going to be there and traditionally dogs won’t defecate or urinate where they eat. So you kind of have that on your side as well. So yeah, it's a nice tight space.  Sarah: And then I think a really important thing too is when you are going into potty training your puppy is just think proactively. So think about how much food he’s getting. Think about what time of day he's getting it, how much water and then you want to take the puppy out before they need to go as well. So that's why the schedule is really important. So what do you do for a puppy potty training schedule? Kathy: So I, you know, my life is the way it is. It's semi erratic.  Sarah: A little busy. Kathy: A little busy. Yeah. And so I'm going all the time and I really value a puppy who's not locked into a routine, like, not having to eat at this time a day and not at me to potty at this time of day, but yet I will tell my students to give some sort of loose routine to their dogs or their puppies for housebreaking. So I kind of look at the day that's ahead of me and I say, “Alright, well I'm up at five and I'm going to let the puppy to potty right away. I'm going to carry it, I’m not going to walk it, and carry it to the potty area, which we’ll talk about later, and then I'll bring the puppy in, a little playing, a little training with food, probably another visit outside and then back in the crate. Now my rule of thumb is, one hour for every month of age plus one as the amount of time my puppy can spend in a crate. I don't take that through month six so that's silly, right? Your six month old puppy probably shouldn't be in there for seven hours. Could be, but it shouldn't be, and that's during the day. At night your dog goes into nocturnal mode so they can sleep a little bit longer without having to go out. But I'm guaranteeing you with a puppy that is really young, like eight to 12 weeks, you're probably still getting up at least once a night. I put my puppies to bed at like 11 that's their last walk. I don't want to stay up till 11 but I do, cause I don't want to really be up at two and if I get up at 11 I'm probably stretching that to like four, but I'm also not tanking my puppy very frequently. I will take their dinner meal, take a little bit of it and put it into lunch and breakfast because those are times where I'm awake and then I'm putting less in the belly at night. I do cut off food and water for young puppies at five. That's pretty much my only, schedule that I always hold to that 5, 5:30 mark, because I feel that's enough time for the dog to get it out of their system and give him and me a very nice night's sleep. Sarah: Yeah, exactly. So, stopping the food and water at about five o'clock and then, so, and then you have about the hours in between. And you said by about six months, they should be pretty well potty trained. Kathy: Yeah, absolutely. One of the things, too, I talked to people about is measure your food. Have you ever asked one of your clients how much they feed their dog and they can't give you an accurate answer. They're like, “You know, like this much.” Sarah: Yeah, like a handful. Kathy: They show you their hand! You’re like, “What is that?” They’re like, “Like, a cup.” And then you say the magic question, “What kind of a cup?” They rarely say measuring cup. They're like, “Oh you know, the cup you get, someone gave me.” Sarah: The scoop. Kathy: Oh the scoop. The scoop is deadly. Cause that's like, yeah. So you have to measure your food. You have to know what you're putting into that dog so you know what to expect to come out of the dog. And if you're training, hopefully you're using the food. If you have people in your house giving the dog treats or you have company over and it changes how much is going in, you've got to adjust your schedule for all of those possibilities. Sarah: And another thing for realistic expectations is also to understand that your puppy, like as they're growing and changing, they're going, it's not going to be like a linear path to potty training. They may have some accidents here or there. So what, what would you say is the best way? Like, let's say you just missed it and the puppy peed on the couch or something like that. What would be your steps to kind of helping make sure that that doesn't derail the rest of their potty training? Kathy: Well, the first thing you do is you pick up the puppy and you walk to the bathroom and you look in the mirror and you say, “Why did I let my puppy dog out? I suck because I didn't listen to anything Kathy and Sarah said.” I would pick the puppy up. I would snap a leash on it, take it outside of the potty area, put it down and say, “Hurry up.” I firmly believe that if a puppy is mid pee and you scoop it up, it will stop peeing, probably not pooping, but peeing. I know that if people were on the potty and somebody lifted them up midstream, they would probably stop. I want to try and have the puppy finish outside. And so I can accomplish that, awesome. Then I put the puppy in the crate and I cleaned it up. And some people say, “Oh, don't let the dog see you clean up their accident ‘cause they'll think that they're in charge.” I'm like, “Hello?”  Sarah: The most important part of cleaning up an accident is making sure that you actually cleaned it all up and got the smell out.  Kathy: It's not about letting the puppy see you. The puppy doesn't think, “Oh, you’re my housekeeper.” Like, that’s just ridiculous. Sarah: Well again, that's adding human emotions to training another species. Like, this is a dog, this is not a child.  Kathy: We should do a podcast on weird things that people have told you. Like I heard somebody said, “Oh, you know how you teach your dog that you're in charge, you spit in their food before you give it to them again.” What?! Sarah: Again, that's like a weird human thing. No. Kathy: Yeah, no. There's others we can’t talk about them now. I’m thinking of all of them now. Okay, anyway...So yeah, and you clean it up completely. Now this doesn't mean with water. Please don’t use ammonia, because a component in urine is ammonia. So all your Pine Saul, pine scented ammonia things are just going to draw the dog back. I would use something that gets rid of the odor and breaks it down completely. And we use Fizzion. And I always tell people, “If the dog school uses a product, you better get on it.” Sarah:  Yeah, we use it for a reason. Kathy: Yeah! We see all these dogs, we know what works. Fizzion works. There's others that really don't work. We don't want to say a name, but they're not really the miracles that they say they are. Sarah: That they claim to be.  Kathy: There you go.  Sarah: No, tried and true. We use Fizzion. Kathy: And then some of them are like, “Oh my dog keeps going back to this rug to pee on.” Okay, supervise better and keep him away from the rug, or get rid of the rug.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. The biggest thing is don't let them go back to there and potty again.  Kathy: Right, right. And again, it comes down to supervision. Like, I think the biggest thing to tell people is, “You've got to supervise your puppy.” Supervise it like it's a nine month old baby walking around pulling crap down off the counter on their head with the chords, and sticking their fingers in sockets. Like, you understand that. That you have to supervise that. And yet people after like a day or two of no accents they're like, “Oh, my puppy is trained.” And the hardest puppies to train are the small grade ones, because the big breeds in real time, like, your shepherd takes a crap behind the couch. Like, you know it. You walk around, you’re like, “What is that?” Your Pomeranian does it, you don't find it in real time. You find it like when you go to put up the tree, six months later, you pull the couch out, you're like, “Oh my God, what's that?” And see that's why the dog isn't housebroken because he's pottied in so many places that you don't even know it. And that's rewarding, because relief is really rewarding. And you can't come back and show them the fossilized poop and fuss at them. As a matter of fact, you can never fuss at them for accidents cause it's all your fault.  Sarah: Exactly. Kathy: I had a student, and I know I've told you this story, who I went to her house and she had a 10 week old puppy and I walked in and the housekeeper was there and I had to wait for the owner to come. And while I'm there, the housekeeper’s bragging that the 10 week old puppies perfectly housebroken and I totally don't believe it. And then the owner comes. I'm like, “So tell me about the housebreaking.” She's like, “Oh, we don't need to worry about it. He's perfectly housebroken. He just doesn't come when I call him.” I'm like, “Oh, really?”  Sarah: 10 weeks old? Kathy: 10 weeks old. It was a little multi-poo.  Sarah: Yeah. Kathy: So the housekeeper opens the gate to leave the kitchen. And what the owner said was, “The only thing he doesn't do is he doesn't come when he's called. And if he runs out of this room, he'll never come back.” I'm like, “Okay.” So, of course, the housekeeper opens the gate to leave. And what happens? Dog runs out and they're like, “Oh, my God! He’s loose!” And they're running through this, you know like 32 room house and I'm just by the front door and thinking, “This is going awesomely.” So while I'm there, I turned to the right and I see the dining room, which is right off the kitchen and what I'm struck by is the fact that the dining room has snow white carpet. And I look a little harder and I'm like, ‘Wait a minute.” And I squat down and I see like 500 silver dollar size pee stains. The dog had been peeing in the dining room, and I'm sure he pushed out that gate, got out, and got back in without anybody knowing. And I'm like, “I am going to have to tell this woman and she's...her head is going to blow off her body.” I'm like,  Sarah: How’d the housekeeper not find it though? Kathy: Apparently she wasn't doing her job either! It was the formal dining room. So they come back down, they had them, they're like, “Oh my gosh! He didn't do anything.” And I'm like, “You know what? I kind of have bad news about the house. Frankly, he’s peeing in your dining room.” And she was really, like, “He key is not!” And I'm like, “No, he is.” And she's like, “Oh, I don't believe it.” I'm like, “Well..” I had to help her to the ground to crawl into the dining room. Now we're both on our hands and knees and she's so mad. She smacking the ground, “I can't believe it.” Yeah, the housekeeper magically disappeared. And so then we had to talk about better gates and better management and yeah, it was...but then it took twice as long, right? Because the dog said, “Why can't I get to my indoor potty area?” Everything had to change. Supervision had to go through the roof.  Sarah: Yeah! Inadvertently you had house-trained your puppy, just on your white rug in the formal dining room.  Kathy: Had she had a Great Dane puppy. He would've had one accident and they would have seen it. There's a river coming from the dining room. Because he weighed three pounds, he got away with it. Oh my gosh. It was awful. It was terrible. Sarah: Yeah. Supervision is, and management is a huge piece of the potty training. Kathy: It is. It is. And, and realistic expectations. Like you should know and if you don't, now you do, that a 10 week old puppy is probably not really housebroken.  Sarah: Nope.  Kathy: Something is amiss. Sarah: Any other, like from working with clients with potty training and like that, that time period before six months, like any other things that have happened that where you fixed it or where it was like as like a kind of specific issue? Kathy: Yeah, I, when I have people who we lovingly call “noncompliance,” and they're non-compliant for a lot of reasons, their life is crazy. I mean they shouldn't go, the dog may didn't want a dog. Maybe they've decided the kids are going to be in charge and it goes badly. So if they're non-compliant or non able to be compliant, we find that we give them these guidelines. If your eyeballs can't be on the puppy, they're crated. If you can 100% supervise, they're gated in a small room with a leash on and if you can supervise pretty much but not 100% they can be X-penned or tethered in a room with you. In addition, if you want really high level security you can tether them. I told a student today at the home. So it was a perfect example at the lesson I was at today. The puppy moved away from us and peed and it was right about the time he should have, and he had just drank water. But if he had been tethered to her body she would have felt him pulling away like a fish on a line trying to get away. Sarah: Yeah. That's a really, that brings up a good one. So what are some of your like tried and true cues that a puppy will give you that they have to potty? Cause a lot of times new owners, they don't know what to look for. They don't know that if the puppy tries to, like, leave you and create distance from you, they probably need to go to the bathroom. So what are some other kind of physical cues that a puppy will give you that they have to go potty? Kathy: They're sniffing and circling is the big one. Definitely becoming disinterested in your play or training or snack or belly rub session. You feel like you're playing and you’re playing and dog's into it and then suddenly they walk away. Like, “What do I smell?” And then they go, right?  Sarah: Yep, yep.  Kathy: If they're really engaged in something and suddenly disconnect that, that's your cue. And they all have different ways of telling you. Right? So, my Border Collie, both of them actually, would run to me, run to the door, run to me, run to the door. And I'm like, “I guess you have to go.” My golden barks, you've heard, “Oh, gotta go.” My doberman would just stare at me. Like, I'd be on the computer and I feel this. I'd be like, “What is going on?” Sarah: Yeah. They’re tethered to you, you'll learn it that much more quickly because like you'll, you'll be a pattern. You'll notice after maybe one or two times you'll see one of those indicators and take them out and then you'll know their cue. If they weren't tethered to you and they were just loose in the house, you missed it. Kathy: Exactly. And you know, it's interesting when they hit a certain age, they don't give you cues anymore because they're housebroken, and you're taking them out a sufficient amount of time. I can't remember the last time one of my dogs asked me to go out because I think I just take them out. Sarah: Yeah. You get into a routine with your dogs and once they get older, they know when they're going to be able to go. Kathy: Yeah. And you just manage what goes in, what comes out.  Sarah: Yeah. Kathy: I think we should talk about the DPA: Designated Potty Area, and this is a huge thing and this is, we did a Facebook live on it, on chicken rock. Sarah: We have the video for chicken rock. Kathy: Chicken rock is...it was very popular. So, basically I want my dogs to be able to go out the back sliding door, obviously if you're an apartment, this is not valid, and run to the back of the property and pee and poop in the area that I want them to so they're not on the grass. And the way I accomplices is I put out an X pen and I leave it unattached, so there's an opening in it. That X pen, I choose to put wood stove pellets because I want the difference in the texture between grass, mulch, and where I want them to go. Although, side-note, I teach my dogs once the potty training is going well, I make the multi-surface pottiers. They go on pavement, they go on grass, they go on stone, they go everywhere because I don't want them to say, “Wait, where's my wood pellets?” What do wood pellets do for you? They're stove pellets. They’re made out of wood. You could use anything you want. If I went somewhere with a potty that was different than my yard, like a friend's house, I could take a baggie of those, maybe even a baggie of used ones and then dump them in a place in her yard. So anyway, in addition to the wood stove pellets, I put a bowl in the back of the crate, so in the pen. So you would have to walk all the way into it and continue going to that to the side of it and that bowl  is upside down ,and on that bowl I put a piece of chicken, you can use anything you want that the dog never gets. Hence the name chicken rock and when I was doing it with values to rock. So it looks like this. I know that puppy has to potty. I get up in the morning, I go into the refrigerator, get a piece of chicken, put it on that rock. Yes, I have to make two trips, go back in the house, get the puppy out of the crate, clip on a leash, walk outside all the way to the potty area. I put the puppy down in the potty area. They go to the back, they eat the chicken and they say, “While I'm here, might as well go.” Sarah: Big key to that is you carry that  is, in the beginning you carry the puppy out to the rock so that they're not able to go on the way out. That's a big part of it. Kathy: Huge. Huge. Because they’re puppies, their bladder is the size of a moment, so they're going to go at some point on the way to that. Then as they get older and the months go by, and I hopefully can still carry them for a little bit, I put them down farther and farther away, and I'm adding from day one, “Hurry up,” and down they get the chicken and then I say, “Hurry up, hurry up,” and then what happens next depends on the puppy. A lot of owners make the mistake of bringing the dog right back in the house. Now it's important to note that when I'm holding that, when I'm in that X pen, I'm holding the leash. My puppy is not loose, because the first nine months that I have a puppy, they are potty-ing on a leash. People that are lazy, and let the dog out, and then when they have to take the puppy somewhere and they can't let them loose and they're on the lease, the puppy looks at them like, “Can you give me some privacy and space?” Because you taught them to go 50 feet away from you. Now, people who live in the city don't have that issue, but it's a suburban. Once my puppy has gone, I can either take them in the house or I can put on a long leash and then we can play in the yard because I'm so boring in that X pen. I don't give them any fun. And a lot of times people make the mistake of taking the dogs on a walk and then when the dog goes, take them inside. And what the dog knows is that, “If I poop or pee, I'm going back in the house and I love being outside so I'm going to hold it.” But some puppies are outside they’re like, “I gotta go in the house,” and then those are the puppies that you do take in right away. But the puppies are more outward bound, adventurous, energetic, pop on a light line and let them run in the yard for awhile. Give them that as a reward.  Sarah: Yup.  Kathy: Speaking of the reward, I do reward at night for emptying themselves, Like, they get chicken from being there, but I will start adding the food reward. Not every time, but when they are squatting and pooping, I will give them food in that moment. I don't give it to them when they run out of the pen because they’re, like, “Oh I should run out of the pen to get them food.” And we have great housebreaking sheets. I think we have a couple. We have one with the challenging housebreaking. Sarah: Yeah, we have those. So those are all in the lesson sheet library for you guys. If you need them, just drop a comment when we post this. We can direct you right to them.  Kathy: Let's talk about the puppy who suddenly is peeing all the time. I'm thinking about the girl puppies.  Sarah: Yeah.  Kathy: Normally it's a UTI and they just show up. They don't catch them. They just get them. No. And so then what your vet wants is a urine sample. So let's talk about how to get a urine sample. YAY! You get a short, not high sided, Rubbermaid... I want to say Rubbermaid, it's like saying Jello. You don't say “gelatin,” you say Jello, right? A container, a plastic container. Boiling water goes in, up and out or dry all day. Then I go outside and I hide it. Not going to be flashing it in front of my dog's face and think it's food or get interested in it. So it's behind my back. As soon as the dog squads, I sled that sucker in, get a sample and then take it out. Go in the house, pour it in my sterilized pill bottle or vitamin jar as my sample. Masking tape. Pre-do this right? Put masking tape around the bottle with your last name on it and the dog's first name, then you don’t have to do it when you are full. Now my daughter, who's pre-vet, and has worked at a vet for years, confirms what I always knew when they want a urine sample, they don't want a cup of urine. Okay? When they ask for a stool sample, they don't want a bag, a poop. They just need a little, little bit. So don't go crazy with that. And then you either refrigerate it until you get it to the vet that day or you take it right over to the vet. And I would call ahead and say, “Hey, I'm bringing a urine sample. Can you test it?” Some vets will test it and then give you Clavamox, or whatever they're going to give you for that, or some bets that, you know, “Bring the dog in. I need to see.“ So it just depends on the relationship and the type of vet that you have. But that's how you get a urine sample with very little dramatics. I mean, and people are like, “Should I use gloves?” Yeah. You know what? Knock yourself out, wear gloves. I don't, but you can. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. Then the indications for that, so usually it is the female dog, like you said. If they're peeing, like, excessively. You know, like,  way more than what's normal, then that would be when you could take them to the vet to get that checked out. Kathy: Although sometimes there are other factors. Aww! Hey, Jack and Nev! Sarah: That was Jake. Kathy: There are other factor-that was Jakey? ​Sarah: Yeah. He was just saying, “Hello.” Kathy: Hey, Jakey! One of Sarah's dogs. So I had a student and it was, like, July and she's like, “My puppy is not a puppy, she's 10 months old. She was housebroken and now she's peeing throughout the house”. And of course the first thing you think is a UTI.  Sarah: Right. Kathy: And like, all right, it sounds like UTI. However, let me ask you, are there any new sources of water that she's getting into? Is she drinking out of the toilet? Like is there a water cooler that's liking? She's like, “No, no, there's nothing. There's nothing”. I'm like, “Are you sure?” She's like, “Yeah, no.” She said, “I, you know, we opened our pool last week.” I was like, “ Wonderful! Hello! Big dog water bowl right out in your yard.” And she's like, “Oh, you're right.” The dog is drinking from the pool when she’s swimming!” I'm like, “Yeah, I know I’m right” Sarah: Jesus. Kathy: Yup. And some people have decorative fountains. Like that's what I mean by other sources of water outside the box. Sarah: Yeah. I always ask too, like, you know, “Is the husband or the kids sneaking the dog water when you're not looking?” Something like that. Or, “Are they giving the dog water when you don't know about it? So you don't know that they need to go again?” Looking for those saboteurs. Kathy: I had a student, Oh my gosh, she had this refrigerator brand new and it was gigantic ones and it was leaking and so she called the repair people and they came out and they said it was leaking. And, like, three or four times! And she finally called the company, got the head of the company’s phone number wrote this nasty email, like, RIP customer service. She wanted the company to take it back. She was going ham on them and she was so mad, and this is actually why she wound up calling me. She said one morning she went downstairs, it was off, her schedule was early, and she's in a robe and she hears (whirring noise)  Sarah: Oh, God. Kathy: And she’s like, “Now I'm going to see what's wrong with this thing?” Oh no. It was her lab, who learn to jump up and push the button, and drink from the stinking refrigerator.  Sarah: Oh, my God Kathy: She said, “Should I call and apologize to the people I ripped?”  I’m like, “You just do what you need to do.”  Sarah: Send a holiday gift basket. Kathy: God, yeah. And that's what we had to work on and you know, we did unplugged the water. Unrewarded behavior extinguishes itself.  Sarah: Yep.  Kathy: We plugged it back in, and start on the ice cubes.  Sarah: The refrigerator's going batty. Kathy: Yeah, that's great. When again, dogs are invested they discover themselves and people get all twisted that the dog isn't learning Down or Place. I'm like, “If you did it the right way, they'd learn it really fast because they are problem solvers and they are brilliant.”  Sarah: Yep. All right. Kathy: Let's see. We covered crate. Oh, I know puppies who pee in their crate! Sometimes, you know this, clients want to leave a blanket or a towel in there and the puppy just bunches it up and pees on it and pushes it back. So I like them, if you have that issue, I like them to have a naked crate. That way. If they pee in it, there's a consequence in a lot of times I had to do that and they also will pee on stuff. Toys, don’t do that. Sarah: Yeah, anything that can absorb the urine, they'll use it. Kathy: I had a student whose dog, see, this is like story time with Kathy and Sarah, but we never, we never say names. So we like the idea that you cover a crate because we feel like it takes the visual interest away from the dog or the puppy, and they settle down better. And I had a student who has, she's struggling with housebreaking. As soon as we took the towels out, the dog was perfect. Until one night, it pulled the blanket through the crate bars that was covering the crate and then peed on them. So like, yup.  Sarah: Yeah. We always try to get the caveat like make sure that the sheet or the blanket is thick enough that they can't pull it into the crate.    Kathy: And my doberman, when they used to pull it in, it didn't matter. It could be like a mattress and they’d pull that sucker in. The thing was, I put boxes on top of his crate, and then I put the sheet on it and I pulled it out like a tent, and I secured it. Ask Eric, he remembers this. I had books and an end table, and he's like, “Catherine, what is happening?” I'm like, “NO!” Sarah: He can't pull the sheet in! Kathy: Oh man, poor Eric. That should be our hashtag, “poor Eric”. Yup. Sarah: Well it worked didn’t it? He wasn't able to pull the sheet in. Kathy: Damn right it worked. It was great. I felt victorious. I may have even snuck out at two in the morning to see if it worked. I'm not going to lose another blanket. So let's see. Got diet, got the time of the night out, we have the schedule, you have the signals, crate size, potty area outside has to be on leash, when you go somewhere new, you can take, if they’re using that method of having a different surface, you can take it with you, and at some point, you want to teach the dog to be variable. Become a variable surface peer. Sarah: Yeah, it's not linear, right? It's going to be a roller coaster when potty training your puppy. He has an accident, deal with it. Like you said, go in the bathroom, ask yourself what you did wrong and then go back out there and just next day start over Kathy: And realistically say, “At six months it'll be perfect if I do everything right. And so I'm not going to delude myself into thinking of typical puppy with an acorn bladder is able to hold that at all.” Sarah: Yeah, exactly.  Kathy: Oh! Can we talk about one thing. When you say, “I told my wife when I was going out to watch the puppy,” “I told my husband to watch the puppy,” “I told my kids to watch the puppy,” nobody's going to watch the puppy like you are going to watch the puppy. So if you can't trust the people that you need, you’re better off crating the dog so you don't set yourself back. Cause that's the worst part. And holidays, cause we're recording this the day before Thanksgiving, holidays are the worst because you get distracted and you get busy and you have company over and somebody's like, “Oh my God, there's poo in the living room!”  Sarah: Or someone steps on it on your carpet. Kathy: And they don’t know it and then they track it.  Sarah: Or barefoot! In the middle of the night, you get up on Christmas morning and you step in dog poop on your barefoot. That's happened to me way too many times. Kathy: Yes. Yes. So that's why you should have people over for the holidays. No, just kidding.  Sarah: Puppy goes in the crate. Kathy: We have really good examples of managing and monitoring your dog on the holidays and that would be in the Thanksgiving podcast as well. Sarah: Yeah. Alright, so we think that we've covered pretty much everything. Any other questions let us know and we'll be happy to answer them. Kathy: Yeah, we'll put our answers to your questions in the comments. Is there a comments? There should be. If not, we’ll just record another one Sarah: Yeah. I'll post the link of this in all the groups and then they can comment underneath any questions they have. Kathy: All right, awesome. Great. Thanks for hanging out with me.  Sarah: Absolutely.  Kathy: Always fun. All right, I'll talk to you later. Bye, guys!  Sarah: Happy potty training everyone.  Kathy: As always, if you like what you hear, jump over to whatever subscription service you downloaded from and like, rate, subscribe, tell a friend, and share this episode somewhere to help spread the word so we can continue to create an awesome community of dog lovers and learners. Happy training everyone!