Podcast appearances and mentions of Anna Brown

We invited a panel of three unschooling parents to join us to talk about what happens when unschooling kids choose school. Ari, Terri, and Kinsey are all members of the Living Joyfully Network and they all have children who have chosen to try school. They shared about what led to the decision, how the expectations of school affected them and their families, what they and their kids learned from their experiences, and how their foundation of unschooling helped them along the way. It was really interesting to hear about their unique paths and we hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It's a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it's a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ERIKA: Hello, everyone. I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia, as well as our special guests today, Ari, Terri, and Kinsey. Hi, everyone. So, I am really excited for this conversation. We invited Ari, Terri, and Kinsey, who are all Living Joyfully Network members, to join us today to talk about what happens when unschooling kids choose to go to school. There are lots of reasons why kids might be interested in trying school. And if they do, it can be a different experience than we might expect, because they’re making that choice themselves. But since people are different, and so are schools, we’ve seen a really wide range of experiences. And so thank you all for joining us to share a bit about your family’s experience. To get us started, can you briefly introduce yourself and share just a bit about your family? And maybe we could start with Ari. ARI: Sure. Hi, I’m Ari. I have three daughters. They are 10, 5, and 7. And we live in Portland, Oregon. We’ve been unschooling for about four years now. And this past year, my 10-year-old decided to go to school. She attended our local public school for fourth grade. ERIKA: Okay. And Terri? TERRI: We live in Swan River, Manitoba, quite a small town. There are four of us, me and my husband, and our two kids, a boy and a girl, Felix and Stella. And Stella decided to go into school this last year, into grade four as well. We live out in the country. It’s nice and quiet out here. And we have various interests that we have going on. ERIKA: Thank you. And Kinsey? KINSEY: Awesome. Hey, yes, I’m Kinsey. I live in Lubbock, Texas. And I have two children, Riley, who’s 15, and Emmy, who’s 12. Emmy chose to try school in 2024, and was there for a little while. So yeah, we had some experience there at our local public school. PAM: Nice. That’s very awesome. Okay, so now let’s get into a little bit more of the details. We’re very excited to hear everyone’s stories. We would love to know how did your child’s choice to go to school come about? And then how did it play out for your family? Certainly like at the beginning, as you guys were adjusting and getting this kind of settled. And would you like to start, Terri? TERRI: Sure, sure. I’m guessing like maybe two years ago, it was coming up to when we could have enrolled her for grade three. And Stella had started asking about school, saying she really wanted to go. And we were, I guess at that point, we homeschooled from when she was young, from the very beginning, and then slowly relaxed into unschooling. So we’d maybe be unschooling for about a year at that point. It felt like we had made this choice to not do school, me and my husband anyway, to not do school. So, it was very tough to wrap our heads around, could she go to school? My husband was very against it. He doesn’t mind me saying he’s like, I said no, he said outright no to her. Outright no to me. He said, we’ve chosen this lifestyle. And this just goes against everything we believe in about the school system. And so that was fair. That was his perspective. And I had that thought as well. But I was kind of keeping it to myself, because I could also see with my child that she’s very, when she knows something or wants something, she knows it through and through, no one will shake her, right? And she’s very strong that way. And I could see that if we held with that no, and held with what we believed was right over what she wanted, that it would be really, really bad for our relationship. And so, my husband and I talked about it. And I just kind of brought that to him that she’s just going to dig her heels in and want it more. And then if one day we let her, maybe she won’t feel comfortable to come to us if it’s not right. So, we’ve had those conversations. Like I said, it took like a year, because that was grade three. And then finally, when it came back around to springtime, we had all talked about it and said, you know, yes, let’s try this out. Let’s try for grade four, there’s really only two schools you can choose from here, either French immersion or English speaking. We could have done French immersion, that was an option. But she was very much against that. So, we enrolled her and also really did lots of work, reassuring her that there would be no, I told you so, you can come home anytime. You can tell us if it’s difficult, but that it was a lot of work. It was a year of work getting to that place. And yeah, it worked out in the end. So, that’s how we came to it. PAM: Very cool. Very cool. Kinsey, what was your experience? KINSEY: Let’s see, school is something that Emmy has mentioned over the years, at times, just something that she wanted to try. I think it’s part of just culture, it’s everywhere. People online talk about experiences at school, good and bad. I think it was kind of like a social experiment for her. Just to see what it was like. So, before we moved here back, we live with my parents in my childhood home, in my hometown. And so she went to the public school that I grew up going to. And still with a lot of staff and stuff that I remember from when I was there, or knew from there, or that knew my parents, that worked with my parents at the school. So, we had a lot of resources, which was great, really helpful. She went up there and was really excited. She was really excited to try it and did okay for the first couple weeks. And then it was like, okay, I’ve seen what this is like and I’m finished with this. But she did not stop going to school, then she would actually stay on and for the rest of the semester, which was pretty challenging for her. Are we going in depth of school experiences right now or how it played out? PAM: Right now, this is just the choice to go to school. Let’s just focus on that piece. KINSEY: Just trying it, I think just trying it. And at the time too, her dad was encouraging her to go. PAM: Makes sense, makes sense. And Ari? ARI: My daughter would mention school a little bit in the few months before she made her decisive statement that she was going. But usually, it would come up like, hey, I think I want to try school. And we would say, okay, and then it would fall away for weeks or months. And then there was one time she had been spending a lot of time during the summer with our neighbor and her good buddy, who goes to school. And the two girls were together one day and they both came up. And my daughter was like, I’m going to school this year, or I want to go to school this year. And something about it was like, this is for real. And so I thought maybe this is actually going to happen. We were three or four weeks from the start of school. So it all felt kind of sudden and there might be a lot to prepare for. But we embraced it. We were like, okay, this is your choice. And so I just enrolled her. And that was pretty straightforward. I think she had, she knew quite a few friends through her soccer team. And that was a big draw. She wanted to spend more time with them. I would say that, in that nine year old year, there were signs of kind of itching for more with life. A little bit less satisfied with our co-op, our little homeschool playgroup type things. And I could see she was just kind of reaching for more. And so I viewed this as an extension of that. So, she started school and really enjoyed it. So that’s where we were. ANNA: Okay, so I’m going to ask about expectations. I feel like school adds some expectations, because they have a way of doing things that’s very different from the way that we all would have been doing it in your families. So how did you handle that change of expectations? And how did your child, did they roll with it? Did they have questions about it? Was it hard to kind of balance those two? And I think, Kinsey, I’ll start with you for this one. KINSEY: Okay, let’s see, expectations. Clearly the schedule part of it was super new and different. So those kinds of expectations, the absences, you know, being there, attendance, there was an expectation that took me a while to embrace. I know how it works. It still took a little bit to maybe get used to those expectations being a part of our life. And the communication expected between me and the school about what was going on with my child. If she wanted to miss a day, is it going to be an excused absence or not, and stuff like that. And keeping track. Thankfully, our school here doesn’t assign homework. That would have been quite difficult, I think, even worse. When Emmy was excited to go to school and motivated, I was excited for her to go to school and motivated to help her with that, because she wanted to be there and wanted to go. Even getting up and getting prepared and getting her stuff that she needed, and making connections even before and all that stuff. It was really fine. It was when she was finished with the experience and couldn’t stop. Just because of what was going on in our family at the time. We were going through a divorce at the time. So that really complicated things. And so she wasn’t able to just come right out. At the beginning of her trying it, that was the expectation. And that was the plan for her to just be able to try it. And then when/if the expectations were too much of a mismatch, or she got her curiosity filled, she got the information she needed to know, or whatever experience, she could come out. And just because of the divorce and the impending case, it wasn’t that easy. And so for the rest of the semester, it was quite challenging to be with the outside expectations that we no longer wanted to be a part of. So that’s just a little bit more complicated and our specific situation. But she pushed through. And I hated it. Honestly. But yeah, there were expectations. It was really interesting. Oh yeah, I forget that I need to tell people what’s going on in our family, I don’t know why she’s not there, and she’s not going to be there. And if she’s going to be back tomorrow or not. And to report everything to that authority figure. It can be challenging, for me anyway. ANNA: Yeah. KINSEY: And once when I was there as well. I had a great school experience. I really did great at school. I was there at that school my whole 12 years. It was fine. It’s going back again, on this side, was interesting. ANNA: I bet. Oh, my goodness. All right, Terri, how about you? TERRI: Stella was all ready to meet all the expectations at the start. Because in something I forgot to mention earlier, when she was talking about wanting to go to school, we’re trying to figure out what she was looking for. Is it the friends? Is it structure? No, she just wanted that school experience. So, she was making her lunch the night before and setting her clothes out and getting to bed on time, which is well on time. She'd say, Okay, I need to be in bed between nine and 10. So, she would set her time and she was there. And then you come up with, a month in or so, some uncomfortable situations. Which kind of leads into what’s expected of me. She had a stuffy nose one morning, and she didn’t want to go to school. And I knew the night before she’d been up to about like 11 or 12. And so my mind went straight to that. She’s not sick enough to stay home. She stayed up too late. She should still go to school. That’s what my parents would have told me. And so there was a lot of work in just a space of 20 minutes one morning, where I was battling back and forth in my head. Make her go to school. No, don’t. But she doesn’t need to be going to school, but she should go to school. No, she doesn’t feel well. And finally, I just called it in. I said, she won’t be in she’s not feeling well. That’s it. And that became my go to anytime that she was just not feeling like going. Sorry, she won’t be in and she’s not feeling well. And that’s it. And what happened? Nothing bad happened. I was kind of like, Oh, someone’s going to call me, someone’s going to find out. I’m going to be caught. So, that was a big expectation that I had to work through. Both of us. She’s always been kind of skeptical about anything or everyone to make sure if people are telling the truth. Well, not necessarily in a whole, but I think with teachers and adults at school, she’s slowly began to see, they’re saying one thing, but doing another, or they’re saying it here, but it doesn’t apply here, or it applies to kids, but it doesn’t apply to them. So she saw this gap. And over those months, anytime she came up to an expectation that was uncomfortable, she’d be a little anxious about it. But then we move through it. And she’d be like, Oh, yeah, right. I think it really broke her trust in just any adults, right? In people who aren’t in our important relationships. And, yeah, I think that was a lot. That was a big part of the journey for all of us, I think. And then she did, she did come out of school in March. I would say, all the way up to Christmas, she was pretty happy. And then by January, she started not to go. She was staying home more often, taking long weekends. Saying it was boring, or coming home with more stories like, Oh, the teacher said this, and I don’t agree with that. And, and then by March, she just didn’t go back after a weekend. She’s like, I don’t want to go back. ANNA: All right, Ari, what about you? And was it? Yeah, what did those expectations bring to the family? And really, even to the other members of the family, too? ARI: Yeah, I think this is so interesting, because we’re all talking about our expectations. And that was the biggest challenge. In our families, my expectation was that my daughter wouldn’t like it, or that it would be this environment that I had built up as this coercive, limiting world for her. And the reality wasn't. It was a widening world for her. It was opening things up. So, I gradually let go of what school meant to me, as an unschooling parent, and just let her have her experience with it. So, that was a journey for me. I would say the expectations from school on to my daughter were similar to what Terri and Kinsey were talking about. The schedule, the showing up, we did have homework, a light homework assignment once a week. And my daughter took all those in stride. Like Terri’s daughter, she would make a lunch, she would get herself up, she would walk herself to school. After a couple weeks, she started doing that and walked herself home. So it was pretty cool to see, I could really celebrate that, this initiated independence. It’s not like, you must do this, because we’re parents trying to help you be independent. It was just, I’m at a phase of life where I kind of want to take on more responsibility for myself. So that was fun to watch. I had another thought, but I can’t think of it right now. ANNA: That’s okay. It may come to you. ERIKA: So, our next question is how you found that your unschooling principals helped you as you were supporting your child in their school experience? And maybe we could start with Terri. TERRI: Yeah, sure. Definitely the idea of holding it lightly, right from the very beginning. Making that decision, just really reminding myself constantly that it’s not a big deal. They can go, they cannot go. We can try to meet some of the expectations school puts on us, and we can let some slide. There’s so much choice. So holding things lightly, all the way through. That was a big one for me. And then also, open and curious, whenever we did meet one of those uncomfortable moments, she would come home from school and tell me something that happened. And you want to jump in and you want to fix it. And you want to suggest all sorts of things, all sorts of great ideas. And I really worked at just being, just shutting up, just being quiet. I let her say all of the things, maybe ask some more questions to help her tell me more. And then either I might make a suggestion, or I might ask her if she wants advice. And sometimes she just needed to let it all out. And then I just kept picking up little nuggets of information, right? And it just was more information for the next thing we ran into. So I think those are really, really helpful. Those are the two best ones. Erika: Yes. How about Ari? ARI: Yeah, I totally agree. Holding it lightly, letting it be their journey, following their lead, kind of matching their energy, showing interest when they’re interested and listening, so much listening. Which I felt was a gift because you hear stories about kids coming home from school and not wanting to share anything with their parents. But that wasn’t my experience. My daughter would share what she learned, share what she did at recess. It just took a couple little questions sometimes for me. And she likes talking about it. So that was really nice. I thought of what I was going to say, which was I love what Kinsey mentioned about matching expectations or something about, there’s a mismatch between the expectations on you and kind of what you’re willing to bring. That’s what I was always looking for. And I think that’s what they are good at. They know that if there’s an outside expectation on them, they have a choice whether they want to stay in the situation and meet those because it’s worth it to them or go a different path. And so I liked looking for that and watching to see if my kids are paying attention to that as well. I also wanted to mention my daughter’s teacher, who was pretty spectacular. I felt like she met my daughter and all the kids on a person level. It was like she saw them as people to interact with, not just pupils to be an authority for. And I think that made a big difference for my daughter’s experience. My daughter liked interacting with her teacher. They would have conversations, they would joke. And that’s the kind of relationship with adults that she’s used to. So that was powerful. But there are also times when the teacher has to be a teacher or there’s expectations on them. And I remember with the report card once, I shared in the network, how my daughter received a report that was, my goal for her is to do her best even on tasks that she’s not very interested in. And it was like, huh, okay. Why? Because that’s an expectation that people should just do things that authority tells them to do. Is that really what we’re trying to instill in our young people? So, that’s just an interesting moment. And we talked about that. We still support you just following your interests. Now I’ve taken us out of the question. Where were we? ERIKA: Unschooling principles. ARI: Yeah, I guess they all fit. Open and curious. Everybody’s voice is important. And your own opinion, your own initiative is the most important. ERIKA: And how about Kinsey? KINSEY: So I think the most important principle for me was open and curious for sure. But also always making sure I was seeing things through Emmy’s eyes. Because school can be such a loaded experience. I think there can be a lot of outside pressure. We had so many people who were really, really, really happy that Emmy was going to school. So, I wanted to be really attentive and make sure that I was really seeing things from her perspective and hearing her and believing about what her experience was. And she had a great experience. The teacher, she had no problems at all with teachers. The teachers really loved her. She didn’t have problems with the work or anything like that. It was, again, I think it was just really a social experience for her, an experiment. And so and then when she was in a situation that she couldn’t easily get out of, it really became my focus to see things from her eyes and be her advocate in the best ways that I could. And keeping all my other unschooling principles. I don’t even really think about things as principles, I guess, it’s just kind of a way of being, a way of life. Tracking with her experience, prioritizing what that is, and the information that we’re getting from that, and responding in the most supportive ways that we can. Within the situation, the scenario that you’re in. I think that’s what I would say, just the ways of unschooling, the ways of being were helpful. Yeah, holding it lightly. Plenty of time, there’s plenty of time. It’s just all so helpful. It’s all so helpful. In what could have been a really highly pressurized or complicated experiment. ANNA: Yeah, it sounds like you were able to keep your connection, even though it did get harder because of just the outside context pieces. KINSEY: That was the most important thing. PAM: Yeah. And I think like the thread through all of your perspectives on it feels different. Like you’re saying it is, it’s just a way of being. And that I feel like at the beginning, those were the expectations you guys were wrestling with a bit. You didn’t want to take on that authority figure, and take on those expectations wholeheartedly from school and then put them on your child. But that you were processing through all the things with them and helping them explore the things, the challenges there and the expectations they wanted to choose to take. Like you were saying Ari, sometimes it’s hard, or it may be an unexpected thing. But in the bigger picture, I want to meet it or to be able to process those things without just being told, you got to do this thing. This is how it is like that. That is huge. I think it's a very different way for them to experience it, even Kinsey, when she did have to stay longer, your extra effort to see through her eyes and to be specifically advocating for her as much as possible. Those are very different experiences for kids, I think. So, I wanted to just dive into this last piece, this last question, because we could come up with all the questions that we wanted. But it would be very interesting for us to hear what else you or your kids would like to share about their school experience. I think it’ll be fun to see what stuck out for you and for them. So would you like to start Ari? ARI: Sure. I might come up with more ideas after I hear Terri and Kinsey's. The one kind of big picture thought I keep having is that the school is very central to our neighborhood. A lot of events happen there. The PTA is very well resourced and very active. There are community events which are centered around the school. It’s probably part of my daughter’s draw to school because that’s where the center of social activity is. And it’s in some ways beautiful and in some ways kind of troubling for me because I can consider the alternative. What if our community built that energy just around ourselves, just around our kids and didn’t tie it to this brick and mortar building where we put kids for six hours a day. I see why my daughter loves to go to school. She loves gym, and music, and library, and recess. And doing projects with her friends. And that’s all possible without the coercion, without required attendance. It requires some structure and a lot of effort, but I think our community could do that without the school. So anyway, this is my own kind of mind wandering. I think there are some wonderful aspects to what a school can be. And it shows just what human potential is to me and what a community could be. That’s my initial thought. PAM: How about you, Terri? TERRI: Wow, yeah, I love that idea. I never thought of it that way, Ari. That’s really cool. So, my mind is spinning there. But yeah, well, first of all, I asked Stella this question. I said, Is there anything you want to share? At first, she wasn’t sure what my question really meant. And I said, well, if there was another family that the child wanted to go to school, and they’ve never been to school, if there was another child who wanted to go to school that has never been before, what would you tell them? And she said, that recess isn’t all it's cracked up to be. People say recess is their favorite part. She’s like, it’s not that great. She did say that, the first few minutes, you’ll have lots of kids who might want to play with you, and then you might end up alone. And I think maybe what she didn’t outright say, I think sometimes being alone was not as fun. But then sometimes she was alone, and was okay being alone. And she’d have an adult, a teacher come up to her and say, Why are you sitting alone? Are you sad? And she’d be like, I’m just sitting alone, leave me. So, that was something she wanted me to share. The whole experience leading up to it was a lot more daunting than the actual experience. In the end, I think I had a lot of work to do, because I worked in this school. My boss was the principal who when my child was four, I said, I think I’m going to homeschool. And he says, that’s a bad idea. I had lots of stuff in my head, thinking about all the thoughts that other people might have with me, choosing to do this, maybe her leaving all that. But in the end, it was okay. Because generally, people are pretty nice. And her teacher was lovely. Very lovely. She was sad to see her go. But yeah, it was a good experience. And I think Stella, now she’s talked about going back sometime, she says maybe grade six. Here, elementary goes up to five, and then they go to junior high six to eight, she said, maybe I’ll go back in grade six. She also said by the time she left, she was bored, that things were easy, or they weren’t interesting. And she was bored. So maybe she’s thinking, by grade six, things will be more complicated and interesting. Who knows, I guess we’ll see. PAM: And Kinsey? KINSEY: So, I’ll talk about Emmy’s experiences that she shared with me when we were talking about this podcast and reflecting about being at school. One thing that she mentioned was that she was really anxious, and what’s interesting, you would not think she was having this experience of school because of the feedback I was getting back from the teachers. But she was really anxious at school all the time. And she was, I think she was guarded, looking, scanning, maybe. And afraid that she was going to get in trouble. And it’s not because she engages in behaviors that would bring on discipline or whatever. But I think it’s just the energy and the atmosphere there. The children are always getting in trouble. There’s a punishment reward system, of course, as most schools have lots of children being yelled at by adults. And there’s a kind of an adversarial, I mean, it’s interesting. There can be a sense of community in the school, maybe it’s around sports teams or the band, or just the school, whatever it is. But then within that, there is a line between adults and children. And it’s very felt. Which probably, now that I’m really thinking about it, was unsettling for her because she’s never lived with that. I mean, we’ve been unschooling since 2018. She was three years old when we came home from preschool. We’ve been in this very partnered relationship her whole life. And other adult child relationships that we’ve fostered and found in our life. So, to be in this place where that’s just not the energy at all, or the way that things are set up. I’m sure that was really unsettling for her, but she said she was really anxious, worried she was going to get in trouble all the time. She said she had felt lots of pressure about her grades, which I found was interesting, too. Because it wasn’t from me. It wasn’t from anybody outside. It was from within herself, which was so interesting to me again, because we haven’t had that. That hasn’t been a thing for us in our lives or for her before that. But I think again, it’s the culture of the environment, of the school environment. The expectations, people are getting in trouble for not meeting expectations. It’s a lot of pressure all of the time, compounded pressure all the time. So, let’s say she was exhausted. She was really burnt out. She got sick a lot. So, we started racking up lots of absences. Terri, like you were saying, so then I’m spending these mornings, half awake, going, Oh, gosh, do I? Is it okay for her to stay home? Or should I go ahead and say you’re going, why am I? Why am I even having this conversation with myself right now? This is ridiculous. But it’s part of the system, right? It’s just it’s part of it. And then after you get so many absences, you get a letter. You have too many absences. We got a letter at the end of the semester. So, that was another stressful thing. I was like, Oh, my gosh, what does this mean? What does this mean for next semester? But anyway, she was really exhausted. She was not sleeping well. Something she learned about school was, this was what she said, she just doesn’t have time for it. She’s busy. She doesn’t have time for school, it takes too much time. And she wasn’t able to spend time with her friends, her pre going to school friends. Her homeschool friends, her online friends, or she really cut into that time. And I think that was really hard for her. So, then what she would end up doing, well, at first, she was going to bed early, it wasn’t that big of a deal, it’s okay, or whatever, worth it, maybe to try. And then after it wasn’t worth it anymore. She really, really needed to be able to spend time with her friends. And she would do that. And she would stay up. So she would stay up at night to do that. She would not get the hours of sleep that she needed to go to school or to to feel good at school. I mean, so she was just exhausted. At this point, she does not have any plans of trying school again, that I know of, I mean, maybe online or college or something like that. We’ve talked about stuff like that, but not going to the local public school. And I just have to wonder, and really, I feel like actually, I don’t really have to wonder that much. I think because she entered into it with it being this open opportunity. And then that was taken. That agency was taken. And then she was having to continue to go for longer. I just don’t know if she would chance it again. And then not being able to come out at her choosing when she knew. So that was it. I mean, it was rough. There were some really fun things about it. But altogether, it was very rough. And she’s not interested anymore. TERRI: Yeah, and that sounds like Stella. ANNA: Yeah, for sure. So just because we didn’t really cover this specifically. Stella did decide to come out, Terri, your daughter, and then Ari, your daughter is still enjoying it. Ready to go back, I guess it's summer break now, though, maybe, and she’ll be going in soon for the fall. ARI: Yes, she’ll be starting fifth grade in the fall. I definitely think about, how do I keep the options open? Of course, she can always stop. But because the social life is so important to her, I think it would be very hard for her to choose to go away from school, even if there were other aspects that she didn't like. Like the forced learning, the forced homework stuff, if that got to be hard, would she, it might be a challenge for her to weigh those two things. And so sometimes I think about keeping up my capacity, the kind of friendships I have with the unschooling community, so that if she were to choose to come out, it would be an attractive option. Anyway, that’s another thing that I consider sometimes. But yeah, she’s going to school in fifth grade. And she’s also had some influence on her younger sisters. So, they would also like to try school soon. PAM: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say, if anybody would like to speak to that, because your kids who chose to go to school or try school have siblings as well. And just how that unfolded having one sibling going to school, like managing the schedules, too. And as you said, Ari, a little bit of it is just the excitement of it, or that she would like them to be there too? ARI: I think it’s a whole combination of those things. There’s this joy that she had that she wanted her sisters to experience too. She did talk about it, we could see each other in the hallways, we could be at recess together, you would have this teacher that there’s this knowingness. And at first, I had more resistance to her sisters being influenced by that than I did with her initial decision to go to school, because I could tell her decision was from herself. And her sisters were being influenced by her. And at first I was resistant to that. I wanted to provide information to my other daughters about listening to what they wanted. There’s plenty of time. Don’t have to do it now. I wanted to share with them a little bit about what I think happens in school. So we talked about it. But ultimately, I had to let go of wanting zero influence from my oldest because that’s how our family is part of their life, right? So, they get to decide how much to listen to her and to try something that she’s suggesting, and learn from that experience. So, we’re embracing it again. ANNA: It’s going to be really fun to see how that plays out. But I think for all of them, it may be a lesson in people are different. To find that something that works so well for one may not for the other or it may be that it works in a different way and is still beautiful. But I think that’s going to be really interesting. I am curious about that. So Terri, how did their brother feel about it? Or did that ever bring up topics of conversation? TERRI: Oh, for sure. We ask every once in a while, like, Oh, are you ever interested? And the answer is always no. And always a hard no. So it could change and grow over time. But I know he said, and I asked if I could share this. And he said, Okay. So, his main reason is that he wouldn't go to school, is that there might be some things he wants to do, but there might be things he doesn’t want to do. And he doesn’t want to be told he has to do the things that he doesn’t want to do. Right? It’s agency, he loses his agency. He’s eight. And it’s true. I mean, you don’t have a whole lot. Some of it’s really great, fun stuff. But you still have to do it in a certain order, you still have to do it for a certain amount of time. That’s his main reason. I asked him if there’s a difference from when she’s at school to when she’s home now, and he wasn’t really able to say. From our perspective, kind of observing, I think they’re playing a lot together, with their online friends, they’ll all be in a call together, and they’ll play online. Right now they’re out on the trampoline together, I feel like, when she went away, it did create a bit of a separation. And then when she came home, she kind of wanted to do her own thing. If she goes back again, that can always be different too, as they grow. But yeah, it’s something I noticed. ANNA: Did Riley have anything to say, Kinsey? Or did she just think, that’s Emmy, Emmy doing Emmy. KINSEY: Emmy’s doing Emmy things. Riley has absolutely no desire whatsoever in going to school. And she didn’t have any feelings about Emmy going to school either. It was hard with the schedule expectations. When it was okay for Riley to stay up late and be playing, or video games, laughing with my mom late at night, when I was trying to help Emmy wind down and try to get her enough sleep for school the next day. Just trying to be aware of all of that. But it was a little bit tricky sometimes. Just didn’t feel good. TERRI: Yeah, I agree. We got into that too. Their rooms are next to each other and going in at night and say, could you just play quietly? It’s after 9. I would say after nine, can you make sure headphones are on and speak in a low voice just just to help your sister out. So, sometimes it got uncomfortable. You’re just like, be quiet, be quiet, reminding to be quiet. But, no, I don’t want to, I don’t want to do this to you. But I also want your sister to sleep. KINSEY: You end up kind of having to be an enforcer. And that’s not where I want to be at all. It is not at all the position that I want to be in. And that actually can really bother people. And did bother people that I was not interested in forcing anyone to do anything. ANNA: Yeah, because they all have ideas, right? I’m just going to pull out a couple things. And then we’ll just talk about what came up. I thought it was so interesting, because we’ve seen this a lot, Terri, that you mentioned, the lead up is so much more stressful than the actual event of going to school. Because I think we see that over and over again, with people who unschool their kids, there’s a lot of worry about what’s going to happen, what’s it going to be like, and really across the board, kids that have stayed or not stayed. So, while it’s not that it’s always the perfect match, the fears that we had ahead of time really don’t play out. So I thought that was really interesting. And then Kinsey, that piece you were talking about with adults and kids, I was thinking just of all the adults in Emmy’s life, she has so many beautiful adults in her life that just celebrate her and delight in her and how that delta must have felt really intense. And I think in other situations, it may not, but I think that is, I think, a hard part about it, that kids and adults, we kind of set up this adversarial relationship that doesn’t need to be. And we see in our lives how it doesn’t have to be that way. But it is a part of that environment. And then just quickly, Ari, that idea of community, I’m working with someone who has this vision of creating a community village. That is to me kind of the dream, because it is bringing adults and kids together to just learn and explore and have resources together. And I think, oh my gosh, if this actually works, it would be amazing. Because we do like community. It is fun to share resources. It is fun to have those different opportunities. But why do we have to be at a place where we have to give away so much agency and where we have to really segregate kids is so hard. But I love your point that for your daughter, it’s worth it, right? She’s getting out of it what she needs to get out of it right now. And it may always be that way for her. I think it’s just, it’s a good testament to sometimes we do need to experiment. It’s their own life. They need to see what works for them, because there is no one right answer. A lot of things bubbled up when you were talking. PAM: That’s what I did. I did really appreciate the point of this. Okay, I’ll finish my sentence. The point of how the lead up can be so much more challenging than the actual experience. And we see that so often, when parents are almost feeling like they need to adopt the school authority before the child even starts, because now I have to make sure they’re up to grade level or whatever, whatever. And we encourage them so often, that there are kids in school right now at every level in any topic. So number one, is that you don't have to use your authority and change your relationship completely with your child, so that they can become what you imagine to be a good student before they even go to school. You've been unschooling for years and then school comes in. And then now there’s just so much processing to do. And you guys all spoke about how that was yours, and your work to do. And I think you all expressed that beautifully, which leads into the other piece that I was just so happy for you all to come and talk about your experience, because it doesn’t need to change your relationship at all. As we talked about the unschooling principles that can weave right through your days, and that the focus is still on the child, and their choices, and how they’re helping them process how they’re experiencing things. We talked so much about giving them space, without needing to jump into fix, you really need to give them the space to do their processing, right? And, and then sometimes asking, do you even want me to say anything? Would you like my experience? Would you like to hear what I’m thinking about it? You don’t have to lose that relationship that you have with all your children, just because one or more choose to go to school. Fundamentally, it’s still an exploration. And yeah, you mentioned being open and curious multiple times, I think that really is so huge, because that reminds us to see things through their eyes, to see how the experience is feeling for them, to see them choose the hard things. So often, people say you can’t give kids a choice to go to school, they’d never go to school. They’d never do hard things, so much of the societal narrative around kids only doing things when they’re forced to do things is just bunk. Because when you give the kids a space to actually think about what they want to do and make choices, and see how they unfold and continue to make choices, you see them in action, their choices make so much sense, even if we would not make the same choices ourselves, the choices they’re making in that moment, make sense. And just see them doing so much competent processing and choice making, right? Think of all the experience that they get just with that, in figuring out what they want to do day to day. Anyway, thank you so much. ERIKA: I think it’s so interesting. And I love how we got to hear such different experiences. And it reminds me of people are different again, every child is so different. And all the teachers are different. And it’s kind of the luck of the draw with that sometimes and what is the school environment like? And so I just think it’s super unique. And so that’s really fun to hear about. And then also, I just wanted to mention how I know sometimes when a child wants to go to school, it really can trigger an unschooling parent big time thinking I must be doing something wrong. If they’re asking to go there, I’ve been doing all the deschooling, convincing myself about how damaging it was in various ways. And just really questioning the importance of that. So, I know it’s such a journey for parents to go on in this case. We want to be able to support them in going, without us going back to our previous mindset, which I think is so hard. And so yeah, I feel like I’ve heard some parents say, we’re not unschoolers anymore, because our kids are in school, or, have that kind of feeling. And that’s why I feel like we always like to keep talking about unschooling as more of that focus on relationships, these kinds of things of giving our kids autonomy and all of that. And so you don’t lose that just because they’re back in school. And so I think that’s really cool. And if anyone has anything else that came up? TERRI: I will echo what Pam said of this fear that they’re not going to be ready. How many years did we not work on specific math things or specific writing things or printing or handwriting, and I’m thinking what will it be like? But she seemed to excel every time I talked to her teacher, she’s like, oh, she’s so wonderful. She asks questions, and she’s involved and is very good. I mean, that could be just her too. But our children are just built for learning, right? They’re built for learning, and they go to school, well, supposedly to learn. So, they’re coming in and the teachers are ready to teach. It doesn’t matter where the kid is. Because again, like Pam said, there are 10 different levels in a class of 15. Every child is different, even if they went to school from age five, or they’re just starting now. And yeah, if I can just underline that, don’t worry about it. I worried about it too. I just wasted energy worrying about that. ANNA: Yeah, I think it’s the choice thing. Because I think when someone’s choosing to be there, I think the teachers just love that because these teachers are beautiful people, right? They are there because they love kids, because they want to create a great environment. And so to have a child who wants to be there and is excited to be there and wants to hear what they have to say, that’s going to just set them so far ahead. Even if they don’t know every single thing that someone else next to them knows, I think that energy of that choice makes such a difference. KINSEY: Okay, that really brought something to mind. She did mention a lot at the time. And we’ve talked about it since then, too, but it was so frustrating to her being in a classroom setting when it was so clear that children didn’t want to be there. If it’s something interesting that they were doing that she really wanted to participate in, or wanted the teacher to be able to explain how to do it because she wanted to do it. And then there were classroom management things going on. It was really, really frustrating for her. And she would get really frustrated at the other students and couldn’t understand. But it’s a totally different story, you’re coming from a completely different place. And she’s even seen that in homeschool classes. She went to a zoology class for a semester, I don’t even think she went the whole semester, she was kind of bored with the classroom set lecture style setting. There was, again, another thing she wanted to just try. And, but it was the same. You could tell that there were children there who really probably weren’t interested in being there. They were there because they were being put there. And it was frustrating. It was really frustrating for her. So she likes being a part of things and group stuff and class stuff when the others are there and choosing to be there. They want to be there. And they want to learn and because that synergy feels good, you know. PAM: And I will say we saw that too in rec classes, like with Michael’s karate. There were some kids who were there because their parents wanted them to be there, for whatever reason, so it wasn’t their choice. And I remember him having the same kinds of reactions and being so happy to be asked to move up to the adult class a year earlier than typical, because it’s a choice. So everybody there wants to be there and everybody’s into it. Fundamentally being able to choose where you go makes such a difference. Just look at kids at school and think these are kids. That’s why society in general thinks kids don’t want to learn. You have to make them do things. But that’s just because that’s the situation you’ve put them in and they are reacting to the situation. That isn’t them naturally as a human being, as a child, that is a young human being in that environment. Yeah, so interesting. ERIKA: It’s really sad to think, most kids don’t have that experience of getting to follow their own interests with other people who also want to follow that interest. It’s such a different environment. ARI: So, just on that choice piece. There’s also a choice of what to make of the metrics. There’s metrics everywhere. Like my daughter took, I think, three practice tests, three progress tests, and then the state assessment at the end of the year. And she got four report cards. They’re always telling her stuff about herself. But we talked about how you have a choice of how to interpret that, which was not my experience. For 22 years of my life, I thought this authority knows me better than I know myself. So, I like viewing the assessments very differently, too. It’s huge. ERIKA: I feel like that just creates a whole different experience, so much more empowering for your kids. Thank you all so much for joining us. This was amazing. And we hope everyone at home enjoyed the conversation. And we invite you to join all of us in the Living Joyfully Network. It’s a warm and welcoming online community of hearted parents, a nonjudgmental space where you can explore what the ideas might look like day to day in your unique family, and be a part of conversations that are just like this. Your first month is free. So you can get a sense of whether it’s a good fit for you. And we would be really excited to welcome you to learn more. And to join us, you can follow the link in the show notes or just go to livingjoyfully.ca and choose network at the top of the page. Thank you so much and wishing everyone a wonderful day. ALL: Thank you. Bye!

We're back with the third episode in our series on the podcast in which we're working our way through Pam's book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Today, we're continuing our exploration of the deschooling phase of the journey with stage seven: Shifting From Control to Connection. Last time, we questioned our beliefs about learning and now, we’re questioning our beliefs about parenting. We talked about how parenting doesn’t have to be adults vs children, that children are capable of making their own choices, that equal doesn’t mean fair, how quitting is not a failure, and how strong relationships are the key. We also remembered to allow ourselves the time and space to grow and change. Exploring these parenting mindset shifts was so much fun! We hope you find this episode helpful! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE Learn more about Pam's book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It's a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it's a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT PAM: Hello everyone, I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully and I’m joined today by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both. And we are back with another episode in our “A Field Guide” series. We are working our way through my book, “The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide”, which is framed around the hero’s journey and is a weave of myths, contemporary stories, and tales from my own journey. And we are deep in the de-schooling phase of our journey right now. In the last episode of the series, which was episode 408, we dug into some of the popular conventional paradigms about learning and found new truths buried in there. And as we continue our journey on the road of trials, in this stage, which is stage seven, we are exploring some unconventional truths about parenting. If you’re newer to unschooling and this is your first time exploring these truths, you’re likely dancing with these ideas more intellectually to just understand what they mean, what are we talking about, and maybe some of the further reaching implications that come along with it. And if you’ve been unschooling for a while and feel like you already intellectually embraced these ideas and have been bringing them into your family’s lives, now’s the time to peel back some more layers to build more connections and contacts around them. Strengthening your web of understanding with your own experiences, building your wisdom around this. And this is where you move towards, what feels to me anyway, believing these truths in your bones, you own them. These are your truths. So, the first truth that we’re going to explore is that parenting is not adults versus children. And right off with that phrase, there are so many aspects to that one truth. Does the conventional approach of pitting adults against children really make sense for us? What assumptions are we making if we believe that to be true? Does it mesh with our experiences with our own children and with the families that we see around us? The presumption of parental power over children is definitely widespread in our culture. We are meant to assume good parenting means power struggles will happen, a battle of wills over whatever the issue at hand happens to be. Yet many of us see right in front of us that it’s a draining and stressful way to live. And that so many adults who grew up in that environment continue to have strained relationships with their parents. That’s always been a curious one for me. So what if, let’s play with what if we choose to drop the assumption that the one right way to successfully parent is to exert power over your child to ensure that they do the right thing at the right moment? It can be challenging when we have little idea of what else to do. Because shifting away from power and control doesn’t mean doing nothing. So to that end, I personally found it really helpful on my journey to focus on connecting with my child rather than directing them. That’s what I could do instead. That helped me shift my energy in the moment to be open to seeing more of what was actually happening rather than that tunnel vision that comes with trying to control something to go one particular way and my way. And to instead get curious about how they were seeing the moment too, recognizing them as other human beings who are with me in this moment, not ones I’m trying to show the right way to go. Anyway, I found this a huge part of my unschooling journey. ANNA: Oh my gosh, it really is this fundamental shift that changes everything. And I feel like we’re handed these ideas about parenting and what the dynamic between parents and kids should look like. This does not feel innate to me. It really feels like something that’s coming from outside. And I truly don’t believe that it feels good to anyone to be locked in power struggles with the people they love most in the world. And I think people press on because they think they’re supposed to. They think this is how it is. This is what I have to do. Even when they have these niggling feelings inside that it doesn’t feel good and I don’t want to interact with my family this way. Because it really just doesn’t make any logical sense. Control, manipulation, and punishments do not work well in any healthy relationship. So take it outside of that parent-child dynamic. It does not work. These are not tools we want our kids to use. They aren’t the tools that we use in our close relationships as adults. So why would we want to bring those tools into the relationship with these beings we cherish above all else? Why would we want to model that? That just never made sense to me. The idea that really helped me the most was understanding that needs drive behaviors. So behind every behavior is an unmet need. Conventional parenting is about controlling behavior, but it never gets at that underlying need where change can actually happen. And if we look for that underlying need and address it, what you find is that behavior that may be offending or challenging at the time can really melt away because the need is being met. And not only that, but it deepens our understanding of each other and our connection. Like you were talking about Pam, that’s how we get to that connected piece by understanding each other. And so for me, that kind of defines the shift from control to connection, from trying to control behaviors, to connecting to understand the needs and address them together. And once there, it just feels better to everyone. And in that environment, we are all learning critical relationship skills that set us up for success, how to express our needs, how to hear another person’s needs, how to problem solve together to meet the needs. That will play out over and over and over again in every relationship in our life, from the clerk at the post office to our closest partner. And that is where I wanted to spend my energy on us all fine tuning those skills together in a safe environment. ERIKA: I agree. This is such a game changer. Moving from that power over dynamic that we’re all so familiar with just from living in our culture, to this place of connection. It just makes such a huge difference in my relationship with my children. And really, like you’re saying my relationship with everyone. And I think it’s surprising to people when they first think about this or first see it in action, because people are not used to this dynamic. I’ve had many experiences, in relating to my kids, friends, with teenagers who are just like, what is this? This is an adult who’s not just trying to tell us to stop, an adult who’s just telling us what to do, or an adult who’s criticizing and judging everything that we do. I’m an adult who is interested in them and wants to hear what they are interested in. And I just have had so many comments like, this is so weird to me, my parents don’t want to hear about this, that I don’t understand this idea of adults who are nice to us. And I think a lot of teenagers have that experience, it really feels like adults are just against them. And so I think it's kind of mind blowing. It really surprises people. But it helps me to remember how I felt when I was a child, and how I felt like I was a whole person, and then people would treat me like I wasn’t, but I knew that I was. And so that feeling is the feeling that kids have. And so the power over dynamic does not make sense to them, it does not feel good to them. We can have people pleasing kids who go along with it. And then we can have kids who push against it, because it doesn’t make logical sense, and it feels terrible. And then about those kids we'll say, Oh, they’re a difficult child or whatever. But kids are people too. We’re all people. And so if I think about how I would have preferred to be treated when I was a kid, that’s a good place for me to start, with respecting children and not wielding my power over them. And what I’ve found in my family is that it’s just so peaceful. Our interactions have a lot more peace, understanding, and mutual respect. There’s not a reason for them to be pushing back so hard against me. There’s not a reason for them to ignore everything I say, because they think I’m just trying to control them. All of those elements that you typically see in mainstream media relationships between teens and adults, it’s just not there. It’s just so much more peaceful. And I think that helps all of us, it helps all of our nervous systems to not constantly be in battle with each other. And it has that feeling of, we’re solving problems together, you’re talking about the underlying needs versus me trying to force my will on to someone else regardless of what they want. And so again, these are our most important, most treasured relationships. So I just think why would we want to bring that power over dynamic into that space that’s so important to us. PAM: I know, I love that. I love all the little bits you guys brought to it. I love having this conversation. But when you think back on, especially, the teen relationships and the teen years, it’s like, oh my gosh, what a huge difference. I didn’t have a lot of conflict with my parents. But I also basically didn’t have a lot of conversations with them at that point, right? Because you knew they were, from best of intentions, but only looking through their eyes. It's about how they think you should do something. So much of it is their baggage from their experiences, right? And I want you to have a better life. It’s almost like inhuman expectations that they share and put on you, like, if I could help my child be the perfect teen into an adult and launch into that whole thing. Those are the kinds of stories that they’re bringing. And yeah, it just feels like one demand after another, right in the conversation. So you don’t start the conversations for the most part. Because you know where they’re going to go. So I, why set myself up for that, right? So that’s the distance that conventionally you see with teens and parents. If we don’t talk, then I'll never know what they’re bringing with those stories. I think when you tweak it to the kid, older kids, like wanting to build their independence, absolutely. That doesn’t mean the connection’s different. The connection is still strong. It’s still there. Of course they can do that. But I think we tend to blame all of that on the teens wanting independence, but so much of it is just because they are bucking against the control, right? ANNA: Absolutely. It’s just so disconnecting. PAM: So, the second truth we are going to dive into is that children are capable of making choices. And this is another one I think can be so surprising for people to discover, right? Because conventionally many parents make most of their children’s decisions for them. Just believing that they’re modeling the right thing to do. And then assuming that their children have learned it and will make those same choices when they grow up and are finally in control of their own lives. And again, most often it’s not done with any malice, right? We love our kids and we want them to learn good choices. But what if we aren’t telling our kids what choices to make? What do we do instead? Again, because it’s not about doing nothing. It’s not about leaving them to their own devices, all these phrases that you hear getting tossed about. It’s about processing with them. What are their questions in this moment? How are they seeing things? What choice makes sense to them? When we aren’t struggling with our kids and are actively trying to nurture that secure and supportive environment, they have the space to consider things from various angles. And make the choice that makes the most sense to them in this particular moment. And have conversations with us about it both before and after the thing. They learn how to make choices by making choices. And I think a key thing to remember as we make this shift in our parenting is to recognize that their choice may well be different from the choice that we would make in similar circumstances. Because, again, people are different. People are so different. I love how different people are. ERIKA: Yes, and I’m so glad you ended with people are different because I really think that is the key here. If I stay stuck thinking that what I would do in this case is the only right answer in that situation, then it can feel impossible to allow my children to make a different decision. But since they’re different people, it doesn’t really even make sense for me to try to impose my preferences on them. Because that takes away their learning. It takes away my learning about them. They can trust me as a sounding board if they want. But if my kids have the space to make their own choices about their own lives, which, you know, maybe that is a big paradigm shift right there, realizing that these are their lives, not mine. I don’t own their life as their parent. Then they can add to their own web of learning about what works for them. So how their choices play out for them will be so much more meaningful if they were the ones who made the original choice. If they’re just doing something that I suggested, and then however it works out, it’s like, why do they even care? It doesn’t really have that same sort of importance to them, because they didn’t choose it. I love the point too, about the opposite of us making choices for them is doing nothing. And it really is not that. It’s being present, building that trust, being trustworthy, being non judgmental about the things that they’re interested in and the things that they want to do. And so they will come to me if they’d like to imagine different scenarios, or if they’re not sure about something. And I know also just by having that connection, when they might need a little push or a little confidence booster, you know, you can do this, you’ve got this. And I know when to trust that even if it doesn’t work out how they thought it would. And sometimes I even know that it won’t. And sometimes I’m right about that. And sometimes I’m wrong about that. But even if it doesn’t work out, I just believe that what they’re learning about themselves and the trust that it builds for themselves, trust in themselves, and then also trust in me that I’m trusting them. There’s just so much trust building that’s happening. I think it’s just huge. ANNA: It really is. I love how you describe that interplay. Because I do think that’s a common first reaction. I’m not supposed to be over involved. So I’m just going to go away. And it isn’t hands off, but it is this what you were describing really being in tune with who they are and trusting in their journey, trusting in your relationship with them. Knowing when you can have conversations and when we can add a little something here. When do I need to just observe or listen or reflect back? And yes, this is where people are different means everything, because we really do tend to think that people see and experience the world in the same way that we do, and that they want to move through the world in the same way that we do. And they just don’t. So how I said it to myself in the early days was that I just don’t know what’s best for another person, even my child, ever. And that just helped stop me and help me stay open and curious about – what is their unique experience here? What are they getting out of this? And it also helped me learn about myself and what things were uniquely mine. And I like how you said, Erika, now, maybe I just lost it. But it’s that sometimes you’re right, sometimes you’re wrong. Sometimes it didn’t work out. But it’s not about it working out, right? It’s just about the unfolding of it, because we’re learning all along the way by just taking a step by trying something. I love that so much that this is even about letting go of some end goal of something that we’re all trying to get to. No, it’s about this exploration and learning about ourselves. And I just find kids are so capable. They know from the start, what they need at any given moment, and if they don’t have a fully formed vision of what that is, they know the next step they want to take, just so intuitively. I saw over and over again, they just don’t have the baggage that we’ve had, that I think can make things so much harder. And I think that baggage, kind of in light of what you were saying, is that we tend to have a fixed goal, like, this is what we’re trying to accomplish, so we have to be tunneling in on this endpoint. And I think kids are much more naturally playing with things and figuring things out. And then, like you said, Pam, oh my goodness, we learn how to make choices by making choices. I don’t know how many times I said that to people when my kids were little. I’m like, how can you say that you want them to make good choices, but you don’t let them make choices? How are they going to learn how to make choices? And in that process of making choices, we do learn what works for us, what doesn’t, when to slow down, when to go full steam ahead, when to pivot. All these things come from the doing, not from being told which decision to make. That just short circuits all the learning, and begins this external orientation that’s actually really hard to break. We’ve talked about this a lot too, that once that external orientation is fixed into you, from school, or even family, it’s really hard to step outside of thinking, what does everyone else want from me here? Versus, what do I want?. And I just found kids to be super capable of solving problems. Earlier I mentioned looking for these underlying needs, they have these best suggestions for solving issues. And I will say, if this is new for your family, it can take some time to develop that trust. Can I really say something here? Am I going to be heard? But it can develop, and with that trust, just like you were saying, Erika, it’s trust, trust, trust all around, everyone feels safe advocating for their needs and really helping each other meet their needs. I just love that. I know it’s a big shift to think that kids know best for themselves, but I truly believe that each one of us knows best for ourselves, and if we can give it some space and observe, you will start to see how different we all are, and how there is this knowing. And I feel like my kids helped me get back to my own knowing. It’s organically there in them from the start, and as adults, we may have to peel back some layers of conditioning, but I think it’s there for us too. PAM: Yeah, I think so. I love that. And I mean, as you were saying that, it just became more and more clear. That giving them the space to make the choices that feel like they make the most sense for them, is such an effective way for them to learn more about themselves, which they bring to the next choice and the next choice. It’s just this beautiful cycle. And then the reminder too, that it can take some time to build up that trust, absolutely, trusting that somebody’s not going to come back and tell them, no, no, no, that’s not the right way, do it this way. Or, see how it turned out after you made that bad choice, I told you so. Okay, so the third truth is, fair doesn’t mean equal. I found this one really interesting to think through. It was so interesting, we don’t want to show favor to one child over another, right? We want all our children to feel equally loved by us, and conventionally, we extrapolate that to treating our children equally. So, like, all kids get one piece of cake, and you’re careful to make them all the same size. That’s just one little example, but it’s like the epitome of fairness, right? But again, people are different, so instead, can we consider what the moment looks like through each of their eyes. How does it feel to each of them? So, I remember when I was thinking this through, I tested this little hypothesis. At the next birthday, I asked everybody how big a piece of cake they would like. And I was flabbergasted, nobody said the whole cake. But, so even as kids, I’d get different answers that really depended on how much they’d liked that particular cake or dessert, whatever we were having to celebrate, how hungry they were at the moment, if they were actually even fancying something sweet, right? So, getting the amount of cake they wanted felt fair to them. They felt seen and heard just by being asked, not just, this is the size that all kids get, and here you go, and, finish it, or you don’t get more. The whole thing, equal does not mean fair. I began to see fairness, not as that quantitative measure of anything that parents give, but as the qualitative measure of the value that each child receives. So, looking back over different seasons, one child may need more of their parents’ time, while another has a passionate interest that needs more of the family’s money to support it. We may be giving each of our children very different things in any particular moment, that take varying amounts of time, of our effort, of our money, but when their unique needs are being met, they each feel secure and happy, they feel seen and heard as who they are. And, in my experience, they do feel equally loved. What a difference, right? ANNA: Oh my gosh, all of these things are so important. This one is huge also, and it’s one I cannot get my mother to understand. It’s funny, because she really does think that doing exactly the same thing for all three of us is fair, and that shows that she loves us the same, and that we’re all equally loved. But gosh, being on the receiving end of that just feels super disconnecting, I don’t feel seen and heard or understood at all. But at this point, she’s 92, so there’s no real changing her, so the three of us will just roll with it. But again, there are three of us, we have a huge age gap, brother, sister, and then I’m the baby, huge age gap. We’re all so different. I think that’s why we talk so much about, people are different, because just understanding how different and unique we all are, just lights people up. They want you to know them, to see them, see their unique gifts and beauty. And so yeah, this whole, everybody needs to be treated exactly the same, does not do that. So, I knew that with this one, I wanted to examine it deeply and do it really differently with my kids. My girls are very different, I just have two, very different, though, and it really would have been a disservice to think in those kinds of black and white, equal is fair, terms. And I think a big part of this is watching my own language, countering the cultural messages about fair, like you did with the cake, right? And so you created a new fair, which is, hey, how much do you want, and let me help you get that. And I think it takes some digging in, to figure out what the need is in any given situation. Sometimes you can just ask, but sometimes there’s a little more to it. And also, just to build the culture of trust, that we will work to meet all the needs, and to recognize our choices in each moment. I think the other byproduct of everyone trusting that they’ll get their own needs met, is actually, they’re pretty happy when other people are getting their needs met too, because we can all celebrate each other doing our own things, and because we know that if we want something, we’ll figure it out, there’s no doubt about that. So, as I was thinking about this one, I’m not even sure you can step away from this kind of equal as fair cultural idea, without moving to a more connected idea of everyone getting their needs met. I think it kind of goes hand in hand, so you don’t have any kind of backlash or misunderstanding about it. ERIKA: Yeah, when I was growing up, we definitely had a huge, equal is fair, message in our family as well. And I think the funny thing is that, by constantly emphasizing trying to make everything equal among the three kids, we became so fixated on looking for the little discrepancies of, like, that’s a little bit more, that’s a little bit less, and we were also focused on it, and it gives you that feeling of scarcity, right? We were always on the lookout for, that’s not fair, how come she got that, I only got this, like, all of those things. And so when I contrast my memories of that with my own children’s experience, it’s just so interesting. From the beginning, I was so careful not to ever indicate that our food, my attention, our toys, whatever the resource was, I made sure I was showing them that there’s abundance, they don’t have to fight over it. And so we provided what we could to each one, but it was what they individually wanted, and, like you both have said, people are different, so I’m not just handing both of them the same thing. Maybe sometimes, and in fact, sometimes that really helps too, to create that feeling of abundance, we don’t need to fight over things, but we don’t need all the same things, we all get what we need. And so, when my kids were younger, my mom would play with them, but it was overwhelming, because if you have little kids, you know, a lot of times they’re both talking at the same time, wanting something, wanting her attention. And I remember she would set a timer. Okay, I’m going to play with Maya for 15 minutes, and then it will be your turn, Oliver, which feels really fair, but it really is just equal, because one might not need the full 15 minutes, and then the other one’s just focusing on what they’re not getting for those 15 minutes. And so, even though it was at times overwhelming in those younger kid days, I did try to just include them both at all times. So I’m hearing them both, you know, kind of being like, oh wow, oh wow, oh, you know, it’s just the spec, and that’s all they really wanted. They wanted to be able to say what they wanted to say in the moment. It was more chaotic, I think, but they didn’t really notice that, they just knew that I was there, they both felt I was there for them, and they don’t have a feeling of competition between each other, and still don't, to this day. And so I feel like many of these paradigm shifts boil down to, people are different. This one feels like that too. If we can recognize that people are different, we know that meeting each person’s needs in our family is going to look different, and that’s what makes a family really interesting and unique. PAM: Yeah, I love that you guys are both pointing out how so much of these boil down to, people are different. And it’s just recognizing that difference and incorporating it into the different aspects, that really is one of the fundamental paradigm shifts. Okay, so fourth truth, and that is, quitting is not a failure. Choosing to quit an activity, I mean, think about it just for a second, it is as much a learning experience as starting an activity. So conventional wisdom says that if we let children quit whatever they want, they will never finish something when the going gets tough, right? They’ll just say, oh, that’s too hard, I’m going to quit. And I see you guys both smiling, that is just not what we see, and I bet you, anyone listening, if you watch your kids in action for any length of time, it’s not what you’ll see either. In fact, if we continue to insist that they finish what they start, what they’re likely learning more fundamentally is to not try out new things unless they’re quite sure they’ll enjoy it. Because they can’t quit it, they’ll have to stick it out, as it were, you committed to this, like, all those kinds of messages. So they’re just going to only want to engage with something that they’re pretty darn sure they’ll be happy to follow through. So what that means is less exploration and less learning. When we favor connection over control, our children gain lots of experience with wanting to try something, choosing different ways to explore it, and seeing how well those different paths meet their goals. They’ll discover things that they like, they’ll discover things that they don’t like, and they will get a better feel for the clues that help them decide when they want to lean into something and when they want to quit and move on. And each time they choose to quit, they’re learning so much. Okay, I just got a rush of goosebumps, because I love this point. How does that choice feel moving forward? Do they miss the activity? If they miss it, that’s not a failure, that’s not wrong. What do they miss about it? That’s more learning. What are they doing with the time that quitting the thing freed up for them? Are they enjoying that? Are they enjoying that more? There’s just so much that comes when you quit something, that’s not the end, it’s not like, you therefore are not allowed to think about it ever again, right? There’s just so much processing that unfolds even beyond that one act, and it’s not forever either. ERIKA: Oh yeah, I think mainstream parenting culture is just so hooked on this. They really want kids to stick it out, and I feel like it’s in this way that we don’t expect ourselves to. And yeah, I think it’s a little short-sighted, right? It’s trying to teach responsibility and commitment and all of these things, but who wants somebody who is committed to something that they’re no longer enjoying? This is a path that does not lead to success, it’s a path that does not lead to good places. I still carry with me some feelings of failure that I have, due to, you know, in quotes, quitting something. I don’t even like the word quitting, because that kind of makes me feel like, I’ll never go back, I quit it. But I don’t view it like that with my kids, they can stop doing an activity and come back to it later, and there’s really no weight to that. But if I look back, I can see that my choices were valid, and that my life path has ended up being amazing, but looking back at certain things, I still feel the pressure and the weight of that, what felt like failure at the time, just because of the messages that I absorbed. Sometimes we don’t know how something’s going to feel until we try it. When we do and it’s not a fit, sometimes it’s an immediate thing, right? Like when I tried taking computer programming in college, I was like, immediately, no, my brain doesn’t do this. For some reason, I thought it would, it didn’t. And so sometimes it’s right away, but sometimes we’re just changing and growing over time. We all know, we’re growing and changing so much, even as adults, but our kids are certainly growing and changing, we see it happen right in front of us. And so maybe it’s like, this used to be great, now it’s not anymore. And so I think it’s just a gift to be able to listen to our inner voice, and make a choice that fits us right now, without that pressure of, this is a forever choice, or this is a failure if I don’t do this. There’s just no one right way to live, and each choice we make, it’s going to lead us somewhere, so we could just try things, quit things, shift gears, dive deep into something, and as long as we’re listening to our own voice, we can trust that we are building a life that works for us. I think we only really get stuck if we’re focusing on the external voices that don’t know us on the inside, and know what we really want and need. ANNA: It really is a clue, that those outside voices are taking up way too much space, because those outside voices, the peanut gallery about the quitting, they’re not the ones that are going to be there doing the thing, they’re not the ones that know how you’re feeling. So it really is just that, slowing down to recognize that and push it away, because this idea of quitting equals failure, is so ingrained, and it’s so counterintuitive, because you’re right, Pam, if kids are forced to stay with something that isn’t working for them, what they learn is to not try, because, I’m going to be stuck with it forever. And they’re so young, you know, they don’t know if they’ll like piano or baseball or that specific art class, there’s so many factors involved, and all the time that they’re stuck in something that they don’t love is time they aren’t getting to try other things to find out what they do love. And I love your point, Erika, that sometimes we know right away, nope, this is not for me, but sometimes interest wanes, right, and we grow and we change, and we’ve gotten what we’ve wanted out of it. I think that’s another thing, sometimes parents get caught up. Oh, but they’re so great at the piano or that sport. But that person, that unique human, has gotten what they want out of that experience, and that’s okay. All of that is okay. And goodness, I mean, I’m 57 and still I want to dabble and try things to get a better sense of if something will work for me. I can get very excited about a lot of different ideas, but until I’m actually doing it, it’s hard for me to say, does it suit me? Does it fit in my life? Do I want this? Is this how I want to be spending my time? And just quickly, if money is your sticking point here, because that's usually a big one for people, we have a podcast about this, but David really helped me move through this one with the financial idea of sunk costs. And so the reframe is that we’re paying for the opportunity. When we go into it with this idea of we’re paying for the opportunity to try this, it feels very different. The value is in learning whether it’s something we’re enjoying versus the value being in getting all of these specific instructions or finishing the class or staying on the team. And if letting the team down is your sticking point, you only have to have played a tiny bit of sport to know that someone who doesn’t want to be there isn’t helping the team at all. And you kind of alluded to this, Erika, like we really don’t want somebody that’s forced to be in any situation, sports or otherwise, or any kind of work. And all of this doesn’t mean that there’s no discussion though, right? Because sometimes there are discussions before, during, and after. And for us, thinking back, if something was a particularly pricey activity,because that happens and kids are like, I want to do this thing. And it’s a year’s commitment for thousands of dollars. We would talk about how we spend that money, where it comes from, what it impacts. Is there another way to learn more about the activity before we commit to something that’s maybe as long or as expensive as that? What I found is that kids are so creative and they often could find their own alternative paths as we’re playing with it and looking different things up. And also just talking to the organization, is there a way we can observe or trial it? People are pretty accommodating when you ask nicely. And I know for me, sometimes it is hard to ask for what I need. I don’t want to bother anybody. I know how busy and hard they’re working to do this program, but I really do find people to be understanding and generous when they can be. And that’s the information we need, right? Is it possible? If not, okay, then that’s another thing to put in the hopper for the decision. And I just love that all of us feel comfortable leaving something that isn’t working. I have seen this play out in all of us over the years. You really just won’t find any of us stuck in jobs we hate for decades, which is so common in our culture. And we know there’s always a choice and there’s always another way. And I think I just have seen it serve my kids and it serves me and David as well. PAM: Yeah. And I think that’s the whole point, with the relationships, with connection being in the lead, those processes are something that we can do actively. Like, okay, you’re stuck in a job that you really don't like, you may end up quitting immediately, but also it can be, you’re disliking it more and more and more over time, but we’re having conversations, we’re making plans. It’s not, well, you know, you have this job, it pays well, or whatever reason we say, oh, you need to stay, et cetera. No, you actually can. That's the control piece coming right back in. We can instead focus on that connection piece. We can talk through it more and even later, it feels lighter, at least for me showing up to something maybe I don’t like, but I know I’ve got a plan to move through it. I know where I’m going to keep talking. It’s not black, white, like we were talking right at the beginning there. And then there was just one other tiny piece. And now did I lose it? I’m trying to think what you, oh, oh, it was about, was it about, it was about like, how much we learn, I think, when, oh, yes, it was, it was, sorry. But it’s something that I love to do. When people come to the network. When we have the quitting discussions, et cetera. And, but then, so we talk about like, once they’re interested in something that may be expensive, I love brainstorming all sorts of ways that you can be involved in it without the expensive class. Because so often, certainly at the beginning of our journey, we turn it into – they’re interested in swimming, swimming lessons. Oh, piano, piano lessons, like dance, dance lessons. That’s our first go-to because that is what we know, right? But there are so many other possibilities that can help them experience the thing that they’re interested in and may or may not at some point want actual lessons for it, but you don’t have to wait for the lesson to become involved. You can go swimming in the public pool. There are just so many possibilities. So I love that piece of just brainstorming ideas and people get very excited and off they go to play and it’s very fun. Okay. Okay. Finally, truth number five, strong relationships are key. It’s not about parenting that parent-child power dynamic in which the overarching goal is to turn out a successful adult, right? It’s about being in relationship with your child. This is a lifelong relationship. We’re two human beings. We’re multiple human beings. That relationship shifts over time as they grow and change, as we grow and change. It looks very different when they’re young versus when they’re in their teens versus when they’re young adults versus when they’re older adults. Even if at any given moment, it feels like things will never change, right? But they really, really do. You can’t imagine when this is ever going to change. And, and getting focused on and fixating on when it will change is going to get in your way. But that’s a conversation for another day. A few years ago, I wrote a very long essay about the value of relationships to learning. And I will link in the show notes to anyone who’s interested. But oh my gosh, when I first came to unschooling because my kids were in school, it was like, oh, how are they going to learn, right? And in the last episode, we talked about paradigm shifts around learning. But I really did come to see pretty quickly that I didn’t need to worry about the learning. What I could focus on was a relationships and this shift from control to connection and recognizing that strong relationships really just drive everything like that was key for me. ANNA: Yeah, I think when we switch the lens to being in relationship, things just change dramatically across the board. I’ve talked about it before, but I would just often ask myself – Is what I’m about to say or do going to help or harm our relationship? That kept me focused on what was important to me. And that litmus test really served me well. Because if I’m tending to the relationship, we’re able to navigate the challenges together from a place of connection. So if I’m wanting my kids to be safe. As parents, we kind of see that as a responsibility. They are safest when our relationship is strong and they can come to me versus rules and punishments to try to keep them safe, which serves to disconnect us. If my kids came upon a situation that seemed a little sketchy, they would ask me about it. They knew I wasn’t going to stop the exploration just off the bat, but that I could be a sounding board and a processing partner as they navigated it. For kids who think they’re going to get in trouble, they may push down those niggling thoughts that this doesn’t feel good or something isn’t right here because they want to learn more. There’s still something intriguing about it to them and they know their parents might deem it unsafe and stop the exploration altogether. And really that puts them in harm’s way without the support of someone who cares about them. And this applies when they’re young and maybe even more so when they’re teens. We always had a policy of, I will come get you no matter what, no questions asked if they ever needed out of something. And they also knew they could use me as an excuse. My mom needs me to come home. Because then it wasn’t about me stopping their exploration. It was about giving them tools, tools to get out of situations if they needed it, tools they could use to explore safely. And that’s just the safety lens. But this really applies to all areas. If we have trusted people in our corner, we’re going to be able to explore and learn more. And I think we can see that in our adult lives too. When we feel supported and loved and cared for, we’re so much more likely to learn and grow. Those basic needs have been met, we’re so much more likely to explore and learn and push the limits of what we can do. And I think that’s the piece that you’re getting at, Pam, right? This is the basis for learning. These relationships really, that is what makes learning happen and easier. ERIKA: Yeah, I think those strong relationships with people we trust helps us in every area of our lives. And it’s the same for our children. And I love the parts about how it helps with safety and with learning. It just makes so much sense. I had a book club with a bunch of unschooling parents, and we were reading Pam’s book together many years ago. And Pam joined us on a call one week. And we were all, I mean, everybody’s like, oh my god, Pam. It was very fun. But I remember having a bit of the conversation, someone felt like they had messed things up, they maybe had an argument with their child, or in some way felt like it was just this negative interaction, it didn’t feel good. And the question was more along the lines of, how can I do better? How can I stop doing that? And Pam’s idea was about how the repair is the important part. Because we’re trying to maintain this connection and relationship with our kids. But we’re humans, and we’re imperfect. And we’re going to say and do things that hurt our children at times, or we’ll say or do things that hurt other people in our lives at times. And so we can let that moment crush us and pull us away from them. And we can just dive into negative self-talk about what a terrible job we’re doing. Or we can see those moments as opportunities to own our parts, own our words and our actions, apologize for the impact, and make the repair with the person that we care about. I get goosebumps thinking about this, because it’s such a more powerful place to be. And it doesn’t require us to be perfect, which we cannot be. But since relationships are so important in all of these ways, when hard things happen in the relationships, knowing that we will be able to move through it, that builds trust between us and the other person. And it gives us more capacity to weather the next challenging thing, whether it’s something outside of our relationship, or the next misunderstanding between each other. And so I always come back to keeping my relationship strong. How can I feel more connected? How can I give my children the feeling that I understand them, and I’m here for them? And it doesn’t always mean I’m talking with them more, or even spending more time together. It’s really figuring out what do they want from me in this particular season? And since they’re unique individuals, what is it that’s helping us feel connected in this moment, in this season? And now that they’re teenagers, we do a lot of reflecting on, remember when that was hard, and we got through it? Things like that. I feel like it really helps us all build resilience and realize that being humans is sometimes hard, and we’re always learning, and I’m always learning. And I feel like me being vulnerable in that way just develops trust between me and my kids. And looking at that, what is going to help us in this moment just to increase our connection is such a valuable place to take a look. PAM: I love that. I love that you brought that up, because yeah, the whole thing, you'd say strong relationships are key. So I need to be perfect at that. I need to do my best at that. That’s the most important thing. I might have mentioned it at the time, the attachment parenting book I had read, because it’s the thing that knocked me, it’s like, oh really? That around 50% or so of our interactions with our children go awry in big ways or in little ways, and that it is the repair that brings us back, right? It’s not trying to avoid it, because imagine what someone feels if they think someone else is perfect. Oh, they’re perfect at that. They make all the right choices. That does nothing but put pressure to be perfect on them. They’ll be putting that on themselves as well. I want to be as good, etc. So, understanding that repair piece, that is so much where trust is built. That we’re coming back, that we’re going to be engaging again. We’re going to be moving through this, and as you said, using those previous examples of times you guys have moved through challenging things, and just bringing those up when new challenging things come up. We may not know how this is gonna resolve, but we know that we’ll find our way through it. We can trust that. So I love that so much, and thank you. Thanks so much to you both for having this conversation. I feel like we touched on a lot of interesting pieces, so I hope people find it helpful. Thanks so much to all our listeners for joining us. We hope you enjoyed this dive into the second stage of the de-schooling phase of our journey as we challenge some of our conventional beliefs about parenting, and we invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network to continue the conversation. It is a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents, a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional unschooling ideas, and just explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. And your first month is free, so you can get a sense of whether the community is a good fit for you. We are very excited to welcome you. To learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfully.ca and choose Network in the menu. Wishing everyone a lovely day. Thanks so much. Bye!

We're back with another On the Journey episode! Pam, Anna, and Erika had a powerful conversation with Living Joyfully Network member and unschooling dad Sam. Sam shared deeply about his journey with his daughter through autistic burnout. We talked about Sam’s experiences in both PDA and unschooling parent communities, the depth of the inner work that this journey involves, and some of the major paradigm shifts that Sam has made along the way. It was a really meaningful conversation and we hope it resonates with you! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It's a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it's a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ANNA: Hello, everyone. I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully and today I’m joined by my co-hosts Erika Ellis and Pam Laricchia, as well as our special guest today, Sam. Hello to you all. I really appreciate Sam joining us today. He’s a member of the Living Joyfully Network and it’s been really nice getting to know his story and watch how things have unfolded. He brings that thoughtful, intentional energy that I love about the Network. That energy helps fuel my own personal growth and create a beautiful, supportive environment where we can dig deeper and question the prevailing narratives. So, Sam, to get us started, can you tell us a little bit about you and your family and what everybody’s interested in right now? SAM: Sure, yeah. Well, I live in Minneapolis with my wife Kate and my daughter. I recently retired from work early. I did the early retirement thing. I had been working part time for the year previous to that. And so, I guess I can start a little bit with what my daughter’s into. I mentioned to her that this was going to be one of the questions and she said interior design and interior decorating and games. And then I would add a few things to that, too. Right now, she’s super into making slime, large amounts of slime in many different permutations. There’s lots of experimentation happening with different ingredients and add-ins and colors and that kind of thing. So, that’s kind of fun and messy. She has a wide doll collection and she’s been really into making her own rooms. She calls them mini rooms and they’re essentially like dollhouse rooms, like a kitchen or a bedroom. She makes one room at a time and adds them on to each other and buys these little, tiny little Mini Brand versions of real life products that she stocks in the doll refrigerator really intricately. And I guess that ties into her interior design interest, as well. She’s super creative. She really likes to do drawing. She makes videos and she actually, I’m kind of amazed at some of the videos that she makes because she’s, I don’t even think I said she’s nine. And so she uses her iPad to make videos and she has her own YouTube channel. She has two YouTube channels, which are not updated too frequently. It’s something she’ll get really into and then completely abandon and then six months later be really into it again. And so, that’s fun. And then she likes building forts. She likes playing with our dog Lucy, and various other things. And she watches videos. She loves YouTube and learning. She’s really into watching videos about Minecraft and Toca Boca World, which is the other game that she’s really into at the moment. She watches videos about all kinds of things like science and history. It's interesting. She’ll frequently tell me very random facts that she’s learned by watching videos and I, being skeptical, when I look at the videos she’s watching then I’ll Google it and be like is that really true? And it’s interesting because it almost always is accurate and so that’s been an interesting learning for me because I’m the kind of somebody who’s avoided YouTube and never wanted to have anything to do with it for many years. And now I watch quite a bit of it just to keep up with what she’s doing. So that’s kind of fun. And my wife Kate, she works in public policy. She’s an environmental climate scientist, and she works on making and contributing to the creation of policy to help us in the state of Minnesota adapt to climate change. And she is super engaged and super smart. And she also likes to compete in triathlons a couple of times a year. She and I are very different in the sense that she needs to have some kind of external motivator to do things and so she really thrives on deadlines and procrastination and that sort of thing and I’m completely the opposite of that. And then we just hang out a lot. We do a lot of hanging out at home, reading, and that kind of thing. And then, for me, I always have a hard time talking about myself, but I read a lot. I’m currently really interested in reading 19th century British novels, and I’m not sure why, I’ve just been really obsessed with it over the past year or so. So, I’m always reading a couple of books. I’ve really been into reading poetry from different periods, and I’ve been writing for most of my life. My first career was as a professional writer, which kind of drained the fun of writing out of me for a good long time. But I’ve been writing, some creative writing and some poetry which I haven’t done in a very, very long time so that’s been really fun. And then, my daughter and I, we just hang out pretty much every day. And we just kind of roll with it and see what happens. We don’t really have a lot of plans. We never really know what’s going to happen. But that’s how we approach it, one day at a time. PAM: I think that’s so fun. I loved the little YouTube story that was tied in there as well. I love the interest piece for you wanting to see what she’s enjoying about this because it’s a way to connect with her, no matter the interest. And I loved that you could share the various things that she’s watching rather than saying, she loves YouTube and cutting it off there. It makes such a difference like you were saying, even just in that little synopsis, the variety of things that she’s engaging with, right? SAM: Yeah, well that was a big change for me because at the beginning of our unschooling journey when we started allowing unlimited screen time, which was a huge, huge hurdle for us to get over, for me to get over. I was definitely in the mindset of, oh my god, she’s just watching YouTube all day and not caring what it was. It was just YouTube bad, whatever, internet stuff. And now, she doesn’t like me to watch with her but she’s happy to have me, like not review but just kind of check out what she has watched and then we talk about some of the videos and I tell her what I liked and she tells me what she was into and we talk about which things were silly or which things were interesting. So, that has been a huge growth for me to just spend more time to really understand what these things are that she’s interested in, in a level of detail that I can actually see it and get it and relate to it in some way, rather than dismissing it, which is what I would have done previously. ERIKA: I loved all of your shares about all of your interests. I always think when people share about family member interests, it’s like, that’s only three people in the whole world and you’re already covering so many different areas and there are so many ways and things are kind of interacting and you’re learning from each other and you’re all so different. And I just love that and I loved the slime phase. We had that big time with my youngest too and it’s pretty messy, but it’s a lot of fun. ANNA: I know the slime thing was actually after our time. Did you have slime, Pam? We didn’t have slime. It wasn’t a thing. I have friends from the Network that have younger kids that I get to visit and it’s a whole thing, right? It’s just unbelievably amazing and messy, but it’s incredible. I love that. And just that again, the diversity of interest with the three of you is just, wow, this is how rich life is when we’re just exploring these things that are interesting to us. PAM: I love that. And so, Sam, you kind of alluded to this, so I’d like to dive in a bit more, but I would love to hear a bit more about how you actually discovered unschooling and what your family’s transition to unschooling looked like. SAM: This will be good to talk about because this was definitely a big journey for us and not something we ever would have imagined, conceived of, anticipated in any way. And so I guess we were just, I mean, for me, I hadn’t really put that much thought into it. Maybe this sounds terrible, but I didn’t really think that much about what it would be like to be a parent. And I had no plans, I had no ideas of how it should be, or the right way to do it or anything like that. I just kind of, I don’t want to speak for Kate, but I just made assumptions that like, okay, you have a kid, kid goes to daycare, until they’re old enough to go to kindergarten, and then they go to kindergarten. And so, we were following that path. And I think we’re lucky that we found out about this daycare pretty close to our house that was, I think, a generally positive thing for our daughter at the time. It’s a Montessori daycare. And it ended up having just some really wonderful teachers, but also some really wonderful friends, and several of whom live just within a couple blocks of us, and have become, in her short life, lifelong friends of our daughters. So, her closest friends in the neighborhood she’s been with since they were three months old, which thinking back on it, I’m like, oh my god, I can’t believe we dropped her off when she was three months old, and just went to the office. But you know, at the time, Kate and I were both in very busy parts of our careers. And I was very, very career focused. And, generally, our daughter did great with other kids, did great in daycare. And then there were a few times like towards the end when she was around five, and we were getting close to the kindergarten transition, she started having days where she just really didn’t want to go. And she would be literally kicking and screaming. I would literally carry her kicking and screaming, which is something that looking back on and I’m kind of mortified that I did. But my mindset at the time was, this is not optional. I've got to go to work. And you've got to go to school, this is the deal. Welcome to the world. And I really felt like I was leaving her in a safe place. And then we live about two blocks from a public school, and we are here in Minneapolis, and we really wanted to send her to that school, and we just kind of made that choice. We didn’t talk to her about it. We didn’t tour schools. And then it turned out most of the neighborhood kids including all her friends were going to the school that’s just a mile down the road but it’s in the suburban district. So, when she was at this school in kindergarten she didn’t know anybody there. And socio-economically and demographically the school that she went to for kindergarten is very different from her. And it was pretty rough. She encountered a lot of bullying. She encountered a lot of what was probably traumatic talk about what they call live shooter drills, and the discussion around that was extremely explicit and extremely scary. And so it was overall not a positive experience for her and within the first month, she was refusing to go and really upset about it. And we realized pretty quickly, though we did this whole, “No, you've got to go, there’s not a choice.” We did that for a little while and then finally she was literally just begging us to send her to the other school. And so we said okay, we’ll do that. It still didn’t occur to us that not going to school was an option. That was definitely not on the radar, but we were able to transfer her to the other school. They put her in the class with her friends, and she had this great group of friends. It seemed like everything was fine. It seemed like it was a total 180. We really didn’t have any more school refusal. The rest of the kindergarten year seemed good. And then we went through first grade and that seemed good. Summers were challenging because there’s this whole world of summer camps that’s super competitive and you have to sign your kid up for camps in January for the summer and my work schedule was so intense, and I was traveling a lot for work. So, Kate was alone with our daughter for a lot of the time. And so we signed her up for every week that we could. In retrospect, that was pretty intense. So, at the end of first grade. And while we went through first grade there were various signs, but nothing that was really telling us definitively that this is not working for her. And she really had a wonderful teacher in first grade, who really got her. And what we realized is that the teacher was really providing our daughter with a lot of accommodations, without her or us having to ask for them, and sort of would bend the rules of the school, just to make her more comfortable. And so that was super helpful and, and I think also pretty unusual. But after first grade ended that summer. We signed her up for a camp, a couple camps, and something happened in the course of that, where she really didn’t have a break at all between school and the camps, and she hit a wall, and we just started to see a dramatic, dramatic change in her. That was really frightening, because it was so intense. And so, at first it was not wanting to leave the house, I’m not going to go to camp, that sort of thing. Which was okay, by that point we were already into the pandemic so my travel had stopped and that was actually a big relief. I was still working a lot but I was at home, so it wasn’t like the end of the world if we couldn’t drop her off somewhere. But we started seeing a lot of physical aggression, and just anger and rage really. And it was something that was just very scary and challenging. And then that summer between first and second grade, she stopped wanting to get out of bed, and would not get out of bed the entire day. Wouldn’t comb her hair, bathe, brush teeth, none of those things were happening. It really felt like we’re in a crisis. And so, we sought medical help. But she wouldn’t go, she would not go to see a doctor. So we did virtual sessions with psychiatrists and that was extremely unhelpful. We were really approaching it through this medical model of, this is a crisis, our daughter is having some kind of like so far unexplained psychiatric episode. And like the psychiatrist basically said, you should commit her to some kind of inpatient thing. Everything about that just felt wrong to me. That was the point at which it was like, okay, we’re not going to talk to the psychiatrist anymore. This whole time I’d been Googling kind of ferociously trying to figure out what’s happening here. What I came across was all this content about PDA. It felt like, wow, this really sounded like it was describing what we were experiencing. So, I signed up for a class for parents who have PDA kids. And that was an interesting experience. On the one hand, it was like this huge relief because the class was from a parent who had gone through this experience and had taken a very scientific approach to trying to understand what was happening and how to readjust their lives to deal with this. In that class, which I generally had very mixed feelings about, but that’s the class where I heard the term unschooling for the first time. So to get to the question, I guess, that was definitely a phrase that I had never heard. In this class, there were 400 parents in this virtual class. I was just astonished at how many parents there were. And we would have these calls and the stories that people shared were all very similar, definitely very relatable. The thing I noticed is that everybody similar to us was approaching it as a crisis, like as a problem that has to be solved. One of the big lessons from the class was this is not something you can change. This is something you have to adapt to. So that definitely got me thinking and it was a real shift of mindset for me. It’s like, okay, this is it, life is not going to be the way we thought it was. And we have to make changes. And it was the facilitator of that class who first mentioned the term unschooling. There was lots of talk about homeschooling because so many of the kids whose parents were in this program were refusing or unable to go to school. In the school world, they label it school refusal. And I think the way I would talk about it now is just, unable to go to school really. So, then I started Googling unschooling and wondering, what the heck is this? Because I was not interested in being a teacher. I actually tried being a teacher in an early career. I had several, false starts, I guess I would say. And one of them was in education and I kind of left that thinking, okay, that is not something I can do. I am never going to do that again. My conception of homeschooling, and I think Anna, you were just talking about this in one of the recent discussions was like, homeschooling means you’re sitting at the kitchen table with workbooks and curriculum and you’re going through the whole thing. And I was like, I don’t want to do that. And I’m 99% sure that my daughter is not interested in that. And so that’s where the unschooling thing came in, I'd like to learn more about this. And so through Googling, I found this podcast (Exploring Unschooling) and it was a totally life-changing experience. I think just listening to the podcast, because I think the thing that really struck me is that I was immersed in this PDA community, which was very much using the medical model for looking at things and the deficit lens of looking at things. And then in the podcast, you all were taking this totally different lens. You’re not doing this because it’s a last resort and you have no other choice. It’s this intentional way of approaching life differently. And then just kind of turning all these things that I never questioned, like school is required and just asking, well, why? Let’s actually think about that. Is that actually true? What’s the goal of education and what are other ways of achieving that goal? And so just listening to stories of parents who were making this choice was really a really transformational experience. And then I went back into this class that I was taking, this class spanned a period of three months. And so in those three months was a huge learning for me, I would go back into these calls with these other parents and their voices are all just filled with panic and fear. And I was just like, I’m not feeling that anymore. When I went into it, I was all panic and fear. That was the deal. And then after listening, and I probably listened to like 150 episodes of the podcast, I’m just walking around the house, the headphones all day, just episode after episode, after episode, everything I’m doing, I’m listening to it. I was just like, I’m not afraid of this anymore. Then I joined the Network, really not knowing what to expect, but one thing that really struck me when I joined the Network is nobody in the network was using any of the same language that I had learned in my PDA curriculum that I had found. But a lot of people were describing similar things that sounded like similar experiences. And I was just like, wow, this is like a parallel universe over here where we’re dealing with the same human things, but this group of people is taking a completely different mindset and a completely different approach to it. It’s not a crisis. It’s not a problem. We’re just rolling with the phases of life and making adjustments that we have to make. I got really excited about unschooling and I was like, this is great. And then I wanted to be talking about it all the time, but I quickly found that people who are not unschooling are not interested in hearing about unschooling. That is a lesson I learned very quickly. So, it’s not something that we talked about at the park or at the neighborhood gatherings very much. So, that’s kind of the long winded story of how we arrived at this point. ERIKA: That gives me goosebumps. PAM: I know. I do appreciate you sharing the details of it because I mean, it is a very familiar journey for me. I remember the years, the two years where we had a great teacher. I was in the same place, working with my kids. I had no clue that this was a choice. This was something we had to figure out and having those teachers who were not as rigid and who saw my child and celebrated them and thought it was really cool and just accommodated. It was only night and day when then the next year you’ve got another teacher who was very, very fixated. But yeah, I super appreciate that whole journey and the comparison, the language and the approach, right. With these kids, I don't even like saying these kids, but with these kinds of situations, this way of moving through the world. We don’t see the deficit side because I hadn’t thought of it that way, but it is completely a choice. It’s like we’re introduced to it maybe because something has gone sideways. Because we grew up with the narrative of, this is the way we do things. We have kids, they go to daycare, they go to school, et cetera. And then something knocks us to ask that first question. But yeah, once you open that up and then you recognize all the different questions that you can ask and that shift to just being in the world with the people who are part of our families and, and it’s hard to explain fully respecting them and just living together and coming and going and, and understanding each other, and shifting to that perspective versus, oh my gosh, here’s all the accommodations I need to make to try to fix it. And then eventually, hopefully, they’ll work enough that we can go back to the life that we had. It’s still holding that because it’s revisiting the questions, revisiting the assumptions that we have been basing our life on that this is the good stuff to do. And what are all the things, even the super hard things, that we have to do to get ourselves back to that. ANNA: I think one of the things I really appreciate was you sharing the whole journey, because I think it will actually resonate with a lot of people. Just hearing how many people were in that PDA group is kind of amazing to me. But one of the things I love, when you first came to the Network and other people that have had a similar journey, because like you said, you’ll hear similar stories to yours very often in the Network, but it’s that first moment of relief, because I think so often you’re really focused on all the things that are happening that feel terrible. This is so serious, this is so terrible, but then really opening up to really seeing the gifts in your child. I mean, oh my gosh, from the beginning, your daughter just delighted me, she just had so many interesting things about her and the way she moved through the world. And I think when we can bring that perspective and I think parents are craving that, right? It’s why those teachers that were so kind felt so great because they saw the thing that you see in your child. And I think that is something that I love about the Network where we just celebrate all these amazing kids for the things that they bring to the table because it’s amazing. We don’t need to make everybody look the same and do the same thing. So, I loved that piece and just that little spark that happens when it’s like, yeah, she is amazing. And I love that we can be in a place where we can all see that. ERIKA: Yeah. When you’re too in the tunnel vision of a certain paradigm, the school paradigm where it has to look like this, and it’s not looking like this, and this is an emergency, it can be really hard to even imagine anything outside of that. But right, I feel like I remember when you first came to the Network, just the idea of what if there’s nothing wrong, actually, and we just are who we are and that’s okay. I think that feels so good, especially when we’re hearing all these messages about something being wrong. And then, for me, with my neurodivergent kids, I just have found being in the Network so validating and reinforcing and positive for me, because I just keep seeing all these similar experiences, they get it, they’ve been there with these same things. And everyone is just really appreciating the uniqueness of each of each child. And that just feels so much better. And I mean, we could try to fix things for our whole lives and just be in constant conflict, and nothing would necessarily even get better or change. And so, I think it’s just so much nicer to be in a nice relationship, in a positive relationship with their kids. And I know you’ve talked about a lot of shifts already. But the question I wanted to ask is, what has been like the biggest mindset shift for you in this journey so far? SAM: I think it’s got to be around the school. There are so many things around this. And I was thinking about this on the most basic level, just the idea that school was optional, or that there were different ways to approach it was a big learning. I think one thing that I left out of the story is that as we were approaching second grade, our daughter was enrolled. And as we were getting closer and closer, I just couldn’t picture how this was going to happen. I think at the end of the summer, on the day after Labor Day, which is when school starts, it was like, I don’t think things are going to be magically different. And we can't just pick up and go back to where we were. But our daughter was, I think she also had the message already ingrained that school was not optional. And so she did rally. We went and got her haircut, and we got clothes. And she went that first day. First, we went to the open house. And that went okay, and we met her new teacher. And then she went to the first day. And everyone in the school said that they were amazing. And that second day, she woke up, and she said, “I am not going back to that school.” And it was firm, this is the deal. And so then I went through a lot between that early September, and probably mid October, which is right around the time, this would have been 2024, which was right on the time that I joined the network. I was calling our daughter in sick every day. And keeping in touch with the school, having weekly calls with the school, trying to explain to them what’s going on. And then I switched her from the school district that we had enrolled her in, and had a virtual only. It is a really innovative virtual-only option that they developed during COVID, and then really invested a lot in. And it seemed really cool, actually. So we switched her to that program. And that did not help at all. She was not going to get on those classes. And she was not going to log in. But I had calls with the teacher every week. And the teacher told me, “I went through the same thing where my daughter refused to go to school. I am totally with you. I totally get it. I totally get where you are.” And I mean, these people at the school could not have been more supportive. But then as soon as we hit the 30 day mark, they were like, well, it’s been 30 days. And now we got to call the county, we got to get the county in there. Suddenly, it was like, okay, we’ve been accommodating, but time’s up, it’s been 30 days, and it can’t go on for this long. At that point, we had had our daughter assessed for neuropsychological evaluation and had all of these assessments done and found a really knowledgeable doctor who specialized in autism in girls. And I felt more confident that what our daughter really needed was rest, and was in a state of burnout that she was not going to recover from quickly. And the psychologist said you should think about it as a year, at least, that she’s going to be in this reduced-capacity state. But it wasn’t until the school said, we got to call the county, that I was like, okay, we've got to make a decision. And at that moment, the decision is we are not going to try to work through this medical deficit lens to try and get our daughter back on track to return to the environment which put her into this state. And so, I think it really took that for me to have that internal shift or transformational kind of moment of, we have to make a different decision. And so, from that point, instead of being like, okay, this unschooling thing sounds great and we’re gonna do this until we no longer have to, I think that’s where my mindset had been, and then I moved into more of what I would call acceptance of no, no, no, we’re going to really choose this path. And it wasn’t until that point that I really started to embrace unschooling and get excited about it and actually think about it as a deliberate choice. And I think the other shift that I think is important was more about me and my worries and my career, because I have always had this sense of financial insecurity and just kind of fear around that. When I was insisting that she go to school, forcing her to go to school, it’s true that I had to go to work and it’s true that my work was very busy and that I had to travel a lot for work, but I didn’t have to work that job. And that was really the way I had approached work. I worked really hard. Work was a top priority in my life before meeting Kate and thinking about having kids and all that. And I was achieving a lot of recognition and success at work and there was no part of me, any new opportunity that I was given at work I said yes to any new challenge I was given. I said yes to anything. If I was given negative feedback at work, I was going to overcome that and do whatever I had to do. And I just was in this mode of thriving on the validation systems of the corporate world and just moving up that ladder. And I had ended up in a leadership position and there was really no part of me that was like, this is optional or I don’t have to. It was like, no, I have to do this. And so, I think that when I started to go through the shift about school, it really made me think about, why am I spending so much time at work? When I was working from home, I had like 12-14 meetings back-to-back on Zoom every day. And I was anxious and frustrated all the time and I was super stressed out and it’s like, no matter how hard you work, there’s always more work. It's just never finished. And so, I started to think that I don’t have to have this career path. It just doesn’t have to be this way. And so, then I started making decisions at work to pull back from work and first I changed into a lower stress job. I stepped down from the leadership role and I took a different kind of role and then I reduced my hours and then eventually it was like, I’m just going to stop working. And there’s definitely a privilege involved with that and there was also, it really was in in the case of our family, I think it was a huge mindset mindset shift for me about how important work really is and how important money is and what you need to do versus what you want to do and all these different things. So that was like a pretty huge thing. And I think that’s the other piece. I often think this related to unschooling now, is that I feel like and I really like that the name of the network is Living Joyfully, because I feel like the term unschooling just doesn’t quite do it, because school is just one part of it or how we approach learning. It’s just one part of it. But really it’s been a total change of how I approach life on a daily basis, right? In big ways and in small ways and so that’s really just a huge transformation that this journey has involved for me. PAM: I love it and yes, the name of the Network was very intentional because absolutely unschooling was my window to this world. It was that the school was the first question when I eventually discovered that it wasn’t the law that there were other options than just dropping your kids off at school or else you go to jail. And it is just so brilliant how you asked that question. You start diving into that and how it opens up It’s like oh, well if I can question school, maybe I can question work. As I am questioning school I am starting to have different perspectives and thoughts about relationships and the value of relationships and the value of my child, a different way of seeing my child as a human being versus somebody I need to train and who needs to learn that you go to school and then that becomes work. I remember there was a season where I noticed when I was writing blog posts many years ago that every blog post I wrote that started about unschooling, obviously, by the end of a thousand words, fifteen hundred words was and that’s life because really the perspective can be applied across every aspect of life. It’s not just school, yes or no, when you want to dive deeper. When you discover it’s not so much that I need to fix all these things so that the kid can enjoy school so that I can enjoy work. Thinking there’s something wrong with me if I’m not making these conventional systems work for me versus questioning the systems in the first place And just I love the journey of how you tweaked it, right? It’s like oh, I’m gonna change my job to release some of the stress. Now I’m gonna lower my hours. That was the same approach with school, right? Those 30 days you’re just calling in sick because it’s keeping your doors open, keeping the possibilities open until there was a moment where that door is closing and now we really want to make an actual choice. Are we going to force through this or are we going to decide to step out of that system? ANNA: I think, for me, I mentioned at the top, questioning the prevailing narratives and I think that’s the big piece for me. We have a lot of narratives, school is a have to and school is hard, you just have to do hard things and work is hard and you have to do hard things and we need to be productive and all of these kinds of beliefs that end up not necessarily serving us individually or as a family but end up serving the system that we’re in. That is one of my favorite parts of this, really just questioning all of it and you may still choose to work in some way or to go to school in some way but boy does it feel different as a choice and an intentional path than it does as a have to and the drudgery. That is why it's called Living Joyfully, why we so intentionally chose that and why Pam really really resonated for me. It's questioning, why do we have to have these hard things? Why does life have to be hard? Why does work have to be hard? Why does school have to be hard? Maybe it doesn’t. And so once we can start asking that question and really examine the answers, I think everything changes so dramatically. ERIKA: Yeah, I love that your answer to the question is basically everything. I just completely changed into a new person. I totally remember that part of my journey as well. When it’s just this ripple effect of one little thing that doesn’t have to be like that and then it just all kind of ripples out from there and I just love it. PAM: One thing I just wanted to say, I think at first like when I remember way back when we started, when I first heard the term unschooling and you hear of people describing living joyfully, making choices from that perspective rather than, life is hard. We have to do these hard things. At first, I remember thinking- well, if I step back and start choosing not to do hard things, won’t my life or my kids be so boring because we won’t be doing all those things. But like Anna said, you’ve discovered and shared Sam, it’s that shift to the motivation behind the choices. The fact that they are now choices, we see our kids choosing to do hard things all the time. Challenging things that get them right up at the edge. Tipping over into frustration, but the fact that they’re choosing them intentionally makes all the difference in the world. That was just something out there because at first you can think oh well then we’re going to be doing nothing but that’s one of the feedback we get to our questions. We used to get so often well, they’re never gonna do anything if you don’t make it do these hard things, right? They do all kinds of things! ANNA: We’re about to wrap up, but I feel like because you’ve shared this journey I just want to and hopefully this isn't too much of a surprise. I know you’re about a year and a half into your unschooling journey, maybe just give a brief glimpse into, things really do feel better, right? Your daughter really feels better, you see her kind of coming back into the person you felt like before and even more so I just maybe that would help give the arc for people that are feeling like it’s hard and it’s scary right now. SAM: Yes, and I thank you for that opportunity because if I think back to where we were. If I think back to a year and a half ago, I was scared. I guess on the one hand I would hear stories of parents who’ve been through something similar and were in a different, better place now was helpful, but on the other hand the voice in my head was like, but that’s not going to be your situation. This is the rest of your life. And it was slow and I think you, Anna, said something really helpful to me at one point. We were probably six months in and I was saying something and I can’t remember what we were talking about but it was in one of our weekly calls. I was commenting on being in burnout and what it was going to be like after and you said, Sam, I think you have some thinking to do about what it means to be done with burnout or what is life going to be like after burnout? What does that even mean? That was super helpful and I’ve thought about that a lot because going into burnout felt very sudden. It just felt like one day we woke up and we were in a different universe. That’s how it felt. But when I think back, there were lots of signs. And if I go back and read, I’m a journaler, and if I go back and read my journal entries from three years ago, the signs are there in my journal or even from longer ago than that. So, it really wasn’t sudden and the sort of transition out and now our daughter does talk about how she was in burnout and she talks about that sometimes. She talks about it as in the past tense and sometimes. She’s still a little bit in there, but she knows she’s in a better place. It really is just very incremental one day at a time, but things have changed dramatically. And we’re just in it as a family. I think we’re just in a way, way, way better place and it doesn’t look anything like it looked before. I think it’s better than it was before but I could never have imagined or thought that this is what we would want. But now I just think things are great. I just feel more confident that we can deal with whatever challenges come up as they come up and we just have a new approach and a new lens for life. ANNA: I think one of the cool things about her and some of the other kids that we’ve seen transition in that way is just how they teach us how to regulate. I want to do this thing and then I want some time off and wait, I don’t want to do this thing. I’ve loved watching her journey of really understanding herself because I think she was pushing herself beyond her limits, sometimes with a little help from you all. But sometimes I think she was just reading the signs and saying okay, I need to do this. But now with this freedom you see her just being so intentional and expending a lot of energy on some things and then saying hey, I need to dial it back. I just feel like that’s great for all of us to learn and remember and normalize that that’s actually how humans like to move through the world. That fast, linear pace is really hard for most humans and our nervous system. So, I love what these kids have to teach us as well. I appreciate you just sharing a little bit more of that arc. Thank you so so much for being here. It’s been really interesting and powerful and I hope everyone enjoyed the conversation and maybe had their own kind of aha moment or just resonated with the feelings that we’ve been talking about. If you enjoy these kinds of conversations and want to come hang out with us. We’d love to have you join us on the Living Joyfully Network. We invite you to check it out and see if it fits with our free month trial and you’ll find the link in the show notes. And also at livingjoyfully.ca. The link will be on the home page. Thank you so much for being here and for everyone for joining us. PAM: Thanks so much, Sam.ERIKA: Thanks, Sam. SAM: Thank you.

I have a new book out and I’m excited to tell you all about it. In order to do that, Anna Brown is hosting Restitutio today and putting me in the hot seat. In this interview, she asks me about Read the Bible for Yourself, a book I’ve been working on for the last three years. In our conversation we talk about whom the book is for and how to use it most effectively. I share about the chapter you won’t want to miss, and I reveal a publishing error that inadvertently promoted marijuana. Wait I thought this book was about reading the Bible. Yes, it is. I guess you’ll just have to listen to the interview to find out the details on that one. Even if you’ve been reading the Bible for years, this book will help you read it better by providing you with key techniques and overviews to make sense of what you read. Anyhow, if you’d like to get my book, it’s out on Amazon.   Listen on Spotify   Listen on Apple Podcasts —— Links —— Get Sean Finnegan’s book, Read the Bible for Yourself Support Restitutio by donating here Join our Facebook group, follow on X @RestitutioSF or Instagram @Sean.P.Finnegan or Threads @sean.p.finnegan Leave a 90 second voice message via SpeakPipe with questions or comments and we may play it out on the air Who is Sean Finnegan?  Read his bio here Get Finnegan’s book, Kingdom Journey to learn about God’s kingdom coming on earth as well as the story of how Christianity lost this pearl of great price. Get the transcript of this episode Intro music: Good Vibes by MBB Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-SA 3.0) Free Download / Stream: Music promoted by Audio Library.

The 2026 New Hampshire legislative session has wrapped up its work for this year, meaning that Governor Kelly Ayotte now has the final word on dozens of pieces of legislation both chambers passed this session. Here are five that we've got our eye on at Citizens Count. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

We're back with another On the Journey episode! We had a fascinating conversation with Living Joyfully Network member Ari Lambie. Ari is a mom of three young children and she spoke with us about her journey. We talked about the philosophy of learning, the fallibilism of humans, creativity, children’s social development as well as their capability, and a lot more. It was a really rich conversation and we hope you find it helpful! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It's a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it's a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ANNA: Hello everyone, I’m Anna Brown with Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-host Erika Ellis and Pam Larcchia, as well as our special guest today, Ari Lambie. Hello to you all. Before we get started, I just want to mention the Living Joyfully Network. It’s a lovely place where you can find support at any stage of your journey, and I feel so lucky to get to hang out with so many amazing people from all over the world. If you’d like to join us, we’ll put the link in show notes, and you can also go to our website livingjoyfully.ca, and there’s a link right on the home page. I am so excited that Ari is here with us today. She is one of those amazing members of the Network I was just mentioning, and it’s been so fun getting to know her and her family. She loves to dive into all the nuances, and that is my favorite, so I’m very excited. Ari, just to get us started, can you tell us a little bit about you and your family and what everyone’s interested in right now? ARI: Sure. Well, thanks so much for having me. I’m really grateful to be here. I am Ari, and I’m part of a family of five. We live in Portland, Oregon. My husband, Joaquin, is a critical care doctor, so he spends a lot of time taking care of people and solving challenging problems, but he’s also really fun. He brings a lot of light energy to the house. He likes to cook, which I love. I mean, I don’t love cooking, so I love that he cooks. He also likes to garden and play sports and come up with challenging ideas and concepts that are away from the norm, which is our favorite thing to talk about. We’ve been together for 20 years, and we just love talking about the ideas he comes up with, which makes me think hard and come back with either a new way of thinking or challenging him with a new idea. So, that’s what we spend a lot of time doing when we have time to ourselves. My nine-year-old daughter likes to come in on those conversations sometimes. She really likes figuring out the world, talking about it. She likes to read. One of her interests is unusual animals, particularly marine animals. She’s taught me a ton about all these animals I’ve never heard of. She also likes to bake and do some crafty things. She likes to watch Minecraft videos and hang with friends. She spends a lot of time with her friends. My seven-year-old is just this fantastic person of expression. She loves to draw. She loves to listen to music. She’s teaching herself how to play some music. She loves stories and is really good at telling stories. And she expresses herself with her body, too. She’s really athletic, and she gives the biggest, best hugs that you’ll ever feel. My five-year-old, she’s really into pretend play. We play a lot of games together. She loves to be a pet in a pet store, and I come and have to buy her because she’s the most special pet in the store. Or we’ll play that we’re both shape-shifting dragons, and we have to defend against the other dragons. So that’s kind of her jam. She also likes to cook, and she’s really into numbers right now. She’s always figuring out how they go together, how they count up. So that’s been fun to play with her, too. We all like to move. We’re all pretty physical. One of our favorite games is tag. When we go to the park, we will almost inevitably end up playing some form of freeze tag. We’ve invented lots of different games of freeze tag. Me, I like to move outdoors. Hiking is probably one of my favorite hobbies right now. I also like to journal, and craft, and do art here and there. I spend most of my time hanging out with my kids and figuring out life. I’m loving it. It’s so nice. PAM: It’s so great to hear about everybody. I feel like we say this every time, but it’s just so fun to hear the different kinds of expressions of each person, yet as you’re listening, you can see how they weave together. Like you were even saying, oh she likes to join in cooking. This one likes to join in on conversations. There’s so many pieces. What I always love is just how it’s a beautiful expression of the idea of a family of individuals. How we can all be living together and being ourselves. Like you said, you’re very busy with parenting and figuring all those pieces out, and also you have the things that you enjoy doing, and that you notice you enjoy doing, and bringing those where they weave in to all the different pieces. So, I just, I love unschooling families. ERIKA: I love that too, and yeah, it’s just making me think about, people are different, and how when we have these different individuals in our families, how we learn from each other, and I think initially when I went into parenting, I was thinking they’ll be a lot like me, and they’ll just learn from me kind of thing. I didn’t realize quite how much interconnected learning there would be, just because we’re all so different. I didn’t realize how different they could be, and I think, each child you add is just a whole new layer of learning for everyone in the family. So, I love that for sure. PAM: I think for me, that’s been one of the big shifts, was recognizing the individuals, right? As a family, we’re going to do this, and as a family, we’re going to do that, and then recognizing that legitimately doesn’t work for some of us, and that was kind of an eye-opening moment. Okay, so the next question. We are very interested to hear a bit more about how you discovered unschooling, and what ideas and people have influenced you so far along the way, because, you know, the journey keeps going, doesn’t it? ARI: Yeah, I don’t think it’ll ever end. So, my interest in unschooling started about four years ago, when I read a book by a physicist named David Deutsch. He talked about a lot of physics concepts that are beyond me, but he also talks about this philosophy or understanding of knowledge, and how knowledge grows, and it really shook up my understanding, but made it clearer to me what I believed, it made it make more sense. And he draws a lot on a 20th century philosopher, Karl Popper, who coined the term, the bucket mind theory, I guess it is. So, thinking about the mind as a bucket, where you pour knowledge in, which is wrong, but it’s how a lot of us think about how knowledge is passed from one person to another. It’s just this receiving process, where someone tells you information, and you receive it, but Deutsch and Popper challenge this and say, learning is actually a creative process. And it happens when we have a conflict in our mind, two things that are incompatible, as simple as a desire. I want this, and I don’t have it yet, or I want to understand this, and I don’t yet, and then what we do in our mind is we come up with ideas that can reconcile the conflict, or solve the conflict, and we use our knowledge to criticize all the ideas we come up with. A lot of this is subconscious, but we’re criticizing our ideas, and picking the one that is the best explanation, and then we try it out, and then we see how the world responds, and we learn more information. This idea just made so much sense to me. They apply it to a larger scale, how humans as a species gain knowledge, and how science advances, but it also applies to the individual, so that really got me thinking. I realized that school is so much based on the bucket theory of pouring knowledge in, and it doesn’t really allow for as much of this creative trying, or see your ideas are as valid as anybody’s, let’s hear more about them, so that was a big knock against school for me. Deutsch also talks about the fallibilism of humans, that we’re just, most of our ideas are wrong. We don’t know anything for sure, and school sends the message, at least I got the message in school, that we’re telling you information, this is how it is, and it’s not going to change, we’re the authority here. I think that’s a real disservice, because the truth is that knowledge is always changing, the truth is, these are our best explanations right now, but in the future, we’ll probably prove most of this wrong. And so I think it’s dangerous to tell kids, this is how it is, don’t think that it could be different So, you combine these ideas of creativity, that learning is about creativity, and that our ideas are always coming up with better explanations, replacing things, and it shows the big problem with ever forcing a person to think a certain way, or to do a certain thing, because even when you think you’re telling somebody to do something because it’s in their best interest, you’re probably wrong. We just don’t know enough about the world, or about that particular person, and then you’re also taking away their ability to come up with their own ideas, and test them out. That’s how they’re going to learn about their interfacing with the world, and how they want to be, and the best understanding that they can come to. You stunt human progress, because you’re limiting ideas, new ideas for us to test out. Those were all big epiphanies for me, this new way of thinking, and I was like okay, so we should avoid forcing people as much as possible. It changed my view on society really. But I still wasn’t sure that it could apply to children. I had a five-year-old, a three-year-old, and a baby at the time, and I was telling them what to do a lot, and so I was like how do you apply this to, does this even apply to children. So, I did some research, and I was like yes, people are doing this. Kids are full humans, they can be seen as creative knowledge growers as much as anybody, in fact they’re more creative, because they haven’t learned to criticize as much. I found John Holt, I found Peter Gray, I found you all, I found the term unschooling, and I was like wow, this is possible. So, I talked with the family, presented it to my oldest, who was in kindergarten at the time, and our life was not as interesting as it was before they started preschool and kindergarten, I was not feeling, I don’t know, not as full myself, schlepping them places, and just dealing with the, let’s get to places on time energy. My oldest was starting to get a little bored with her experience in kindergarten, and she was all for staying home and continuing to play, so that’s when we started. ANNA: All right, see, this is exciting though, because I think it’s so interesting, that idea that he was talking about, and that you were looking into that, how it really does systematically shut down that creative mind, that critical thinking mind. What a disservice, it really is. That’s why it’s so hard for me when, and I know it feels to people like such a radical concept, but I just think, oh my gosh, how does it not make sense, you can see it happening, and I think it’s just so fascinating. I love that this idea was related to adults. And still I think for many people it’s that resistance, but can it be for kids? I see that with so many interesting people that are putting interesting ideas out in the world, and so often are not applying to children, and I just think, whoa, you’re really missing the boat, one, because kids have so much to teach us, and they bring such creativity to things, but I just think, wow, you are missing that the ideas definitely apply to kids. That was very interesting, thank you. PAM: The part that really bubbled up for me, that connected, because I feel like that’s something that I learned so strongly at school, that still gets in my way, so yeah, maybe it might be partly personality-based, but the idea of having the right answer first before acting. That is something I learned watching my kids, but still, it’s so ingrained. I have to literally remember, and which is why I talk pretty often, and I don’t know if we’ve shared it yet, the Baby Steps episode from the Living Joyfully Podcast, but Baby Steps have become a mantra for me to remind myself to think, just as you were describing, what’s my best interpretation or thought or idea about this thing that I am feeling a push with? And go try it, and see what I learned, because I’ll learn more by trying it, more that I can take back, rather than just intellectually trying to solve it completely to the end, before I ever actually take it out in the world and see what it looks like. So, I’ve spent all that time trying to figure it out, versus experimenting. I think maybe it looks like this, boom, go try it, learn some more, come back and, ooh, I’m going to tweak it a little bit more from what I learned, how things unfolded in that moment, and I’m going to take that idea out into the world and test it, that just makes so much sense. It is how I saw, even though my kids were in school for a handful of years before they came home, but yeah, that period was just, like, releasing the crud, right. The crud that they had been absorbing, so their own kind of de-schooling, but mistakes still were not yet this huge, horrible thing to them. They didn't even see them as mistakes, they just said, oh, that didn’t work as I expected, let me bring that information, tweak it, and try it a little bit differently next time, or two minutes from now when I want to keep pushing down this path. For me to recognize that mistakes aren’t literally bad, they’re just more learning, they’re just more context to the situation that I’m pulling in, And that, to me, that’s where the creativity lies, because the more little bits of information I have, or if we think about learning as a web, the more little connections I’ve got, the more creative I can be, because I have more pieces to play with, to bring together. It reminds me, you were talking about the discussions you and your husband love to have about very interesting things, it’s like, oh, let’s pull it apart this way, what if we look at it this way, what if we go way over here, and what would that look like, let’s go try it, or even if it’s a mind experiment. It’s just so fun and creative, and that’s what learning is, versus the, oh my gosh, here’s the bucket, take the fire hose, all the stuff you’re supposed to memorize and implement, because it’s the right way. Anyway, yes, so fun. ERIKA: I feel like I’m going to be thinking about some of these for a while, it’s very interesting, and kind of a unique path to get to unschooling. I don’t know if I’ve heard this exact story before, which is really fun. It was making me think, that idea of, you’re probably wrong, it could be a really good one to kind of play around with, because that’s so not what we learned growing up. It was, there’s one answer, that’s what the fact is. Then I was thinking back, and I remember in school, learning in science or something, we would learn something that people used to believe, like spontaneous generation, or something, where now we think how could they have been so clueless? I remember having the thought at that time, so what about now, don’t you think people in the future are going to be like, how could they have been so clueless back then? So, I had that thought, but then you don’t really have a chance to play around with that. Everything is taught as facts now, and I just remember being, like, how will we know which ones of these are completely wrong, that we’re learning right now? And so it is really interesting, and I think maybe approaching my kids with the idea that I’m probably wrong about what I think I know about whatever it is, I think that could be helpful. It might also make it more challenging to know what to say sometimes. I think I grew up in that environment of, you listen to the person, and they know what’s true, and that’s it. It feels super expansive to kind of shift that. ARI: Yeah, I love all that. I think the way we try to come at our kids is not with that authority of, we know what’s best, but we have some ideas. We have stories that we’ve experienced, and we try to look at our kids. Are they interested in hearing from us about this topic? And when you were talking, Pam, I was thinking about how the internal versus external processor, how maybe you go try things out, and that’s how you test ideas and criticize them and come up with better ones. A lot of people like to process them against the knowledge they have in their head or maybe go read about stuff. I love how you all talk about these different kinds of processing. Some people want to talk to other people. The problem with the mindset that we learn in school is that talking to another person means asking an authority for the answer when it could mean let’s bounce some ideas around, like, what do you think of my ideas? Tell me your ideas. Let’s come up with what’s the best one to try, you know? PAM: Yeah, or cheating, right? Then don’t talk to them about it. It does very much say you have to learn it all, and you have to regurgitate it this way. Just imagine external processors. You can’t talk to the teacher. You can’t talk to the other students in the classroom, and do you have a lot of time for processing outside of the school hours? That was something that surprised me when my kids first came home, because we went from very scheduled and busy and stuff, right, and I thought, oh, well, we’re not going to school anymore. We have all this time to do other things, but then to realize that, they’re like, no, thank you. No, thank you. They spend so much more time just processing and engaging in what they were interested in, much more than I was kind of expecting. I thought, oh, I’m going to have to keep them busy, and that too is personality-based. Some people like to, but that’s the difference. Even when we went to, say, the Science Center, seeing the difference between how they moved through exhibits and just the whole environment versus how the school kids in the exhibit right beside us were moving through it. They had no control, no agency over that pace, and they didn’t even get to choose what they were trying to process because they had the little worksheet that said, at this exhibit, when you do X, what happens. There was no time then to be creative with what is actually catching your attention. What would you like to focus on versus, what somebody else, authority, is telling you. These are the important bits that you need to be picking out of that, right? ANNA: Right, which I think makes you question things too, if you’re picking up different things than what the authority is picking up. I think a piece of my journey that’s related to this is, just kind of toying with the whole subjective reality piece, which I think was really the foundation for my understanding of how different people are. I do a lot of internal thinking about all the things, and that was really it for me. Oh, things that feel like a fact, we are experiencing differently. So there was this nuance to the fact. The fact is that it’s 40 degrees outside. I’m cold, someone else is hot. Okay, so we have a fact, but we have how we’re interacting with that fact. A dramatic example of one nation’s terrorist is another nation’s hero. There’s a fact of what happened, but the interpretation of the fact is so subjective, and so it was just this idea of, wow, we are experiencing the very same things very differently because we’re all so different. That just really changed so many things about the way I related to my kids, related to the people in my life. Then we’ve just built on that as we’ve talked about relationships, but I think it’s all related. And I think school really stifles that understanding because it’s trying to put everything in a very neat box. And again, I think it can make kids kind of doubt themselves too, because they’re seeing different things that are just as important, but that aren’t being highlighted on the worksheet. ERIKA: I think the younger kids, especially, like, when you’re describing being able to talk things through and that everyone’s ideas have value. I feel like it gets more like that when you get into college and beyond where people actually want to talk and professors want to hash things out. I mean, not everyone, but some. But younger kids, you’re not ready for it. You know, you need me to dump all this information into your bucket because you don’t know anything yet. And so I think that’s so interesting that if we question that, kids have so many ideas and are so open to that. ARI: Simply the idea that they might know what they want. They’re having this subjective experience and they have unique wants. But no, we want to take them to this class and this activity and they shouldn’t be watching this TV. There’s just this idea that we know better what they want. PAM: Right. We don’t trust. Like you said, we just can’t know. We can’t. And I think that’s why when we talk so often about this de-schooling phase of the journey, how so much of it we recognize quickly enough is our work to do. Because we are questioning some of these more basic ideas and then playing with them and seeing how they unfold. Here’s the school’s conventional ideas and here’s, for lack of a better phrase, unschooling’s unconventional ideas. And it’s not about just taking those on wholesale as your new set of rules to follow, et cetera. Because then you don’t get that richness. You don’t get that understanding. You’re not playing around with them to see how they make sense for you. But to take this, like you were saying, that makes sense to me. Does this apply to children? And then looking to your children and playing around with some of those ideas and then seeing how they actually unfold is how you learn how capable kids really are and how they can have an idea of subjectively what they want this experience to be. Notice that it’s different from the experience we were kind of hoping they were going to have. But letting it play out and seeing, oh, look how super valuable that was for them, for who they are as that unique human being versus, yeah, sure, I could have said, oh, no, but do it this way, but do it this way. And they would have taken that in, but they would have taken it as my interpretation. And then, yes, you get into all the, oh, does that mean I’m wrong? Does that mean I can’t think through this properly? I should be thinking about it and seeing and being interested in what they think, et cetera. So there’s all that piece that comes along when they didn’t get to play around with the one thing that they were super interested in about it all. ERIKA: The next question we had is how you have shared on the network about how trust has been harder to find related to your children’s social development more than physical or intellectual development. I was hoping you could share a little bit about that journey and what has helped you in that area. ARI: Yeah, it’s been really interesting to watch in myself how I have no qualms about the kids climbing up structures and maybe taking a tumble, playing sports and making mistakes. I see that as part of their physical development. And with intellectual, academic stuff, it was pretty easy for me to make the paradigm shift of if they follow their interests and their problem solving, they’re going to be able to lead their way here. But when it came to social stuff, the moment my kid said something mean on the playground and I’m worried what the other kid is going to think, I immediately tense up and rush to intervene. Even if my kids like making a suggestion for a game to a stranger on the playground, I feel myself, oh no, what if, I don’t know if she asked it in the right way. What if the other kid says no and I’m so untrusting of their social exploration, it’s been really interesting. And so with all of your help, I’ve been exploring why that is and where I can go with it. I think that the social stuff has always been really hard for me, or the hardest part for me. And so, in a way, I wish I had more help with it. And so I want to help my kids. And this is how I know how to help is to jump in and tell them what to do. I also think that in our society, and I’ve noticed it, in particular in the homeschool spheres, there’s this real desire for everyone to play nice. I think even families keep their kids out of school to avoid bullying and terrible behavior, which is legitimate. But then it makes these expectations in the play spaces of, we don’t accept certain behaviors. And so we have less tolerance of their developmental journey in this social stuff. They’re supposed to know how to act now, which I think is really interesting. And so I feel that social pressure. And then the third piece, I think, is that I feel like my impact on the world, my desire to bring certain energy, certain positivity to the world is intertwined with how my kids act, how my kids are in the world. And so if they do something socially that I don’t like, if they do something that might hurt someone, or behave in a way that is not how I would carry myself, then I think that’s a problem, because I am too connected. So there are those three pieces that I’ve tried to work through. I think the first one, as far as me wanting to intervene, because social stuff is hard for me, I’ve unpacked as like, would little Ari have wanted more instructions, more judgment, telling me how to act? Or would I have wanted curiosity and more questions like, what’s going on for you? Compassion, trying to understand what’s going on. And an acknowledgement that we don’t know the right way, there’s no right way to act, right? Language like, this is not okay, or we don’t do that. That doesn’t fit in my sphere anymore. It’s more about, what was this experience? And do you want to process it with me? That’s the energy I would like to bring to my kids. It’s still a struggle. I get triggered all the time. But I try to think back on what would have helped me and looking into my kids eyes, what is going to be helpful for them now? Is it judgment? Is it instruction? Or is it this openness and acknowledgement that you’re on a journey and you don’t have to get it right now. First of all, there is no right, but also, it’s just a long learning process. And then with the social expectations, I’ve tried to surround myself with people who are interested in trusting their kids more. And I found some beautiful people. And that’s been helpful. I acknowledge that we don’t want our kids to be hurt. So we still want to talk to our kids about and inform them if somebody else is being impacted by their behavior. I try to just have a lot of conversations without judgment around that. And I think helping our kids through difficult social situations by being okay. Helping our kids know that hurt is going to happen and that I’m here for you and what do we want to do about it? Instead of mom should have prevented that. I think there’s just so much more nuance to their social development than kids should have these instructions of how to treat other people. Because social interactions are really complicated. And then, my biggest aha, I think, has been untangling my impact from my kids’ impact. I think there’s a story that I have. And I think a lot of people believe that our kids are part of our way of making the world a better place. We’re raising our kids to be good people so that the world can be a better place. And the moment, this statement came into my head that my children are not my agents to make the world a better place. It’s like, whoa, that’s me. That’s about my actions. And they are full people. And I am here to support them in becoming who they are. That has been a really helpful aha moment for me. ANNA: Yeah, that one’s huge. And I think that is interesting, because I think we do often put things on children that are really ours to carry. It is okay for me to say I want to be this change agent myself, but this idea that our kids can do that is super interesting. But something when you were talking earlier to just the idea of, we tend to focus so intently on behaviors that we really do miss those nuances of needs that are happening underneath of that. And so when we’re solely focused on, even just the labeling of bullying behavior, it’s like, oh, there’s so much underneath of that. Now, granted, in a school environment, they don’t have the tools or the time or the people that can work with that. So, I totally get wanting to get kids out of an environment like that that doesn’t feel safe. But when we have engaged parents with kids, we’re able to dig under that to see, oh, is this actually not a good environment? Have we not eaten? Is there something else going on? We can look at all these pieces. And when we’re having that kind of conversation with our kids, they’re actually learning about their own triggers, like, okay, I don’t do well in large crowds, or I need to eat before we do something, or I can only last two hours. That’s so much more productive for everyone, for the family and the group as a whole. But for the individual to have the space to learn about themselves in that way, when they’re young, is so valuable. I also feel for you because I’ve been there feeling that like, oh, that’s not what I would say. That’s not how I would have handled that. And I love just being able to help myself, find that compassion for the person and really see them and have really seen so many people just kind of melt under that and just feel really held. And have a real learning opportunity of what was happening for them in that moment. There were just so many interesting things about that. PAM: So many. I mean, it really is the piece, maybe I’m reiterating again, but that piece of how much they’re learning about themselves, having the space to process that, spaces in that doesn’t mean literally leaving them alone, because that’s what we feel we’re supposed to do or anything. We have the conversations and they’re like, I don’t want you to come jumping in if you see, I want to try this, this and this. But you’ve made that plan beforehand. This is an experiment that you’re running. This is how you’re trying and how you’re going to learn more about all the pieces. Because like you were saying, there’s just so much context to every moment. Maybe one park day, everything goes fine, there are no big blow ups or anything. And, the next one, there’s clashes. And to be able to chat more about the context of those moments. And if you don’t have as much of a chatter, we’re still observing. I think that was one of the things too, so often was seeing that, like you talked about finding a group of engaged parents, Ari. And I think that makes a huge difference because so often it was the parents all off in one area and then the kids just off on their own. And I was often one of the only parents who would hang out with the kids. They’re fun. But because we saw what was going on, we could have meaningful conversations after about it. When they did this, how are you feeling? Or we have enough information and context to have meaningful conversations to process through which they can learn. I was really hungry or I was frustrated because like three interactions ago, something happened that I was stewing about that came with me. So my cup was almost full. And this one little thing which I could have moved through 90 percent of the time just kind of filled me up and I exploded because of that. Those are all such valuable pieces to learn about ourselves. And for them to learn about us, like moving forward that they can bring that you can then prep for it. Like you were saying, eating before you go, noticing the time and maybe even having like a code word for when it’s time. There were times when I’m like, we’ll totally just blame this all on me or whatever. Like I’ll come up and say, oh, we have to go, we have to go. And we’ll have prearranged it before that, that they’re going to want to go at this point. Or if we see something happen, but then I am able to just pull them out of it. We are just learning so much every time we just try something out and see it takes us right back to where you started. I try something out and see how it unfolds and what do we learn from it? And yes, it applies here too. But yeah, socially, that can be a hard place to take these ideas or a more challenging place to take these ideas. Because there are so many social roles. And like you said, you kind of have to find the people who are also willing to engage with social situations in the same kind of way. ERIKA: It is so interesting. I think it’s just an area that triggers us, because of our own experiences and how you’re describing that social life was hard for you. Then that’s so triggering. I have the same experience with my kids. I don’t want them to lose their friends. I want them to be accepted and I want them to not be rejected. And there are these very kind of almost scary feelings that can come up for me. It feels very urgent that this go well. And I just hope that they say the right thing. It’s a panicky feeling that can come up for me. But just like everything else, there’s no one right way, which you mentioned, which I think is so huge. That doesn’t even seem possibly true at the beginning. But then it’s like, well, of course, there’s not one right way to behave socially. And that it requires learning like anything else in life. And so just being open to it, they’re going to try things and see how it turns out. And that’s just how humans learn. And that’s okay. That’s safe. It's been really interesting to sit with the reality of that. My oldest does a lot of processing of social things with me. That has been very enjoyable to have things occur and him to notice things he didn’t the first time, after our discussion. So he’ll be like, so and so is really making me mad right now, he’s furious. And I’m like, oh, my gosh, what’s going on? But then he’ll bring things up. I think he probably didn’t sleep well, you know, just the context pieces or we don’t know. Maybe I could provide information. His mom’s been out of town all week or just different things. There are things that go on with people, maybe it’s hormones. And so we’ve talked about hormones and maybe it’s all these different things. And so just kind of giving everyone more space, I guess, to make mistakes socially and that to be like, and we’re still okay. And we can make repairs. It’s such a different feeling and story than I had when I was growing up. I feel like the validation I got from my mom was kind of like, that’s a mean person. It wasn’t about, I wonder what’s going on with them. It was more, no one should talk to you like that. They must be a mean person kind of feeling. Maybe she didn’t use those words, but that was what I internalized about it. So, yeah, I totally appreciate that this area is so hard sometimes. I really enjoy hearing you process about it and just opening up to, there’s no one right way, even here. ANNA: Yeah. Something you said too, that I think a lot of us deal with is we take our childhood experiences and I mean, of course, because they’re a part of us, right? And so they become these triggers in these situations with our kids. But I think it’s so important to remember how different the environment is for our kids. You are there to have those conversations and those nuanced pieces. And it is so different. And almost the stakes, while they still feel high, I know what you’re saying, Erika, they are lower. In the sense of my experience of school was just me having to go to this place and figure it all out on my own. I had a close relationship with my mom, but she didn’t know anything about school or the politics of school or what was happening at school. And so I didn’t even bring that to her. I think it’s so different when we’re with our kids more in this weaving in and out of our lives day to day, where they just have that space to talk about their feelings and what’s happening with it. And even if they’re not kids that share every little bit, there’s just some different nuances there related to how we support our kids. So it’s always important for me to remember, that was my experience. And it was so hard because I didn’t have the support. But I guess that’s what I liked about what you said, too, Ari, asking what would I have wanted? Would I really have wanted somebody to jump in and tell me what to do? Or would I have wanted this nonjudgmental space with somebody to help me figure it out for myself? I thought that was really interesting. ARI: I think it’s one of the most rewarding parts of parenting in this way that our kids come to us to process. Like you were describing, Erika, when they just see a moment and they know that it’s always an opportunity to process with mom or anybody here. It’s just a beautifully different environment. PAM: It just reminds me of, I always remember the drive home from Girl Guides meetings. That was always a big processing time. But what stood out for me often was just like you were saying, Erika. It’s like, oh, so-and-so seemed like really out of sorts today or whatever, whatever. And she would be explaining to me, yeah, because X, because Y. Where I feel this defensive mama bear come up. But I got to the space where I could just recognize that in me. Doesn’t make it wrong either, right? Nothing, it’s not wrong, wrong. It’s just recognizing that experience. And then when I just put a little sentence out there, I get the whole context and the understanding. And I was like, oh, yeah. That’s the human being I want to be. ANNA: Whoa, right? It’s not getting defensive. Being able to see other people’s experience. And also, just be able to make that repair if it's needed. Or be open to repair if something’s happened to us. I think it’s a big difference. And it’s a learning process, right? It’s not perfect for any of us at any age. And so this expectation that kids are going to be perfect doesn’t make sense, but it’s creating that environment where that’s possible. And I feel like even, Ari, some of the stuff you’ve talked about on the network, you’ve seen changes in them as they’ve had this freedom. Especially your oldest to really be understood in some of the ways that she was approaching situations. So I think that was really cool. ARI: Absolutely. ANNA: Well, thank you so much. This was a lot of fun and I just really, really enjoyed it. And we hope everybody enjoyed our conversation, maybe had a little aha moment or picked up on some ideas to consider for your own personal journey. And of course, if you enjoy these conversations and want to come hang out with us, we’d love to have you join us at the Living Joyfully Network. It is really such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the things that we encounter in life, our own and our kids and all the things. So we invite you to check it out and see if it fits with our free month offer. And you’ll find the link in the show notes or you can go to livingjoyfully.ca and the link is on the homepage. But thank you so much again for joining us. It was just really great to hang out with you all. ARI: Thank you for having me. PAM: Thank you, Ari. ERIKA: Thank you so much, Ari.

If lawmakers get their way, 2026 could spell the end for one of New Hampshire's oldest and quirkiest laws: the ban on collecting seaweed at night. This year, legislators will consider HB 1094, the latest attempt to scrub this odd prohibition from state statute. But why was it put there in the first place, and why have lawmakers repeatedly chosen to keep it in place over the years? Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.  

Transparency is a cornerstone of effective local governance, and in New Hampshire, the Right-to-Know law (RSA 91-A) empowers citizens to access public records and ensure their government remains accountable. From the ACLU's discovery of a proposed immigration detention center in Merrimack, to Executive Councilor Janet Stevens' recent request for details from the Berlin Police Department about the murder of Marisol Fuentes, the Right-to-Know law has played a significant role in recent news stories. But the law isn't only available to lawyers and officials. This guide provides a clear, step-by-step roadmap for successfully filing a Right-to-Know request—from your initial search for existing public information to following up on your formal submission—to help you obtain the government information you seek. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

Macca and Paul are joined live in the studio by Anna Brown from Equality Australia, as they discuss the ‘Hands off our Protections’ petition. CEO Anna Brown's fingerprints are on nearly every major reform for LGBTIQ+ people in recent years. She played a critical role in the campaign for marriage equality co-chairing the Equality Campaign. Our communities are facing some of the most serious attacks on our rights and protections in many years. Right now, multiple Bills are being pushed that would strip protections from trans people and take a wrecking ball to Australia's anti-discrimination laws more broadly. No one should be singled out for exclusion because of who they are. Sign our petition now calling on MPs to stand up for our communities. Now is the time for our communities and allies to come together and push back. Sign the petition today. https://equalityaustralia.org.au/hands-off-our-protections/ The post Sat, 30th, May, 2026: Anna Brown, Equality Australia, Hands off our Protections! Community Petition! appeared first on Saturday Magazine.

Every year, the New Hampshire Legislature passes hundreds of bills. Most of them travel a well-worn path: one chamber passes a bill, the other chamber agrees, and it heads to the governor's desk. But some bills hit a detour and end up in a room with a small group of legislators trying to hammer out a deal. That group of legislators is called a conference committee, and right now, there are several already in session with more likely on the way. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

We’re back with the second episode in our new series on the podcast, in which we're working our way through Pam's book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Today, we're beginning our exploration of the deschooling phase of the journey with stage six: Challenging Our Beliefs About Learning. Deschooling has several aspects, and this is one of the big ones. We may carry many beliefs about the way that school is connected to learning and the way we expect children to learn. In order to challenge those beliefs, we dug into five truths about learning: teaching is not a prerequisite for learning, curriculum is unnecessary for learning, children are always learning, learning is fun, and learning is not hard. Once we start to question our existing beliefs, many of these new truths come to the surface. And they really build on each other until we’re living in a whole new paradigm! We loved diving into learning and we hope you find this episode helpful! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE Pam’s Substack article, “But if they don’t go to school, how will they learn?” Learn more about Pam's book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It's a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it's a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT PAM: Hello everyone, I am Pam Larrichia from Living Joyfully and today I’m joined by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. ANNA AND ERIKA: Hello! PAM: So we are back with another episode in our Field Guide series. We’re working our way through my book, The Unschooling Journey, A Field Guide, which is framed around the hero’s journey and it’s a weaving together of myths, contemporary stories, and just tales from my own journey. In our first episode, if you haven’t listened to that yet, you can go back, we dove into the first phase of the unschooling journey, which was Choosing Unschooling, in which we answered the call to unschooling. We found our guides, which in a fun twist are so often our children. We navigated past various threshold guardians as we crossed the threshold from the ordinary world into the world of unschooling and moved through our time in the belly of the whale where we came to embrace the curiosity of a beginner’s mind. Now we are firmly in the deschooling phase of our journey, which encompasses seven stages and really does represent the bulk of our transformational work. Joseph Campbell calls this next stage the Road of Trials, which through the lens of unschooling, I have broken into two stages because I experienced them as quite distinct from each other. The first focuses on challenging our existing beliefs about learning and then the second one on those related to parenting. In this episode, we’re going to talk about five truths about learning. And if you’re new to unschooling and this is your first time exploring these truths, you’re likely to be dancing with these ideas more intellectually to just understand what they mean and some of their further reaching implications because it’s just mind-blowing enough to hear these the first time and go what, that doesn’t match with what I’ve known so far. Anyway, if you’ve been unschooling for a while and feel like you already intellectually embraced these ideas, now’s the time to peel back some more layers to build more connections and context around them. You’ll be strengthening your web of understanding with your own experiences, because you’ve been doing this for a while, so building your wisdom. And you are moving towards really believing and feeling these truths in your own bones, owning them for yourself. All right, after all that preamble, the first truth we are going to explore is that teaching is not a prerequisite for learning. And right off, oh my gosh, there are just so many aspects to this one truth, isn’t there? ANNA: It’s true. And I think it’s so interesting, because all of us can think of so many things we’ve learned without being specifically taught in that one way. And, oh my goodness, just look at babies learning to walk and talk without expert classroom instruction. And yet somehow schools have really sold us on this concept that to learn you need to be instructed by someone. And not only that, but learning happens while sitting at a desk. And let’s throw in some power dynamic, loss of autonomy, a little peer pressure for good measure. But even without all of that soup, the idea that we need another person to teach us in a very specific way is just so limiting. But what’s funny, personally, is that I didn’t want to homeschool in the beginning. I was very resistant because I didn’t want to be a teacher. So that statement right there shows you how deep I was in the idea that learning was about a teacher giving information to a student. I think it was just so baked into my experience and what I’d been told for my whole life. And so even when in my own life, there were all these examples of me learning things all the time as an adult on my own in different ways. But somehow those didn’t count now. It was just so interesting to unpack that for myself. And watching my kids was really what changed that, with a little point in the direction of observing from John Holt. I could see that I couldn’t even stop them from learning. They were just these little sponges, so interested in taking in everything, turning it around, trying to make sense of it, building context, building their own unique web of learning that we talk about so often. And then I started to kind of deconstruct the whole process. So, even with the most amazing, well-meaning teachers, and there are so many of those beautiful people out there, if a student wasn’t interested, it wasn’t going to work. And I also read a lot about brains at that time and how we don’t learn well under stress. And that’s when I started to think, is school ever a helpful environment for learning? Does it ever make sense? And I’m just not sure that it does. And I think learning can happen there, but it’s kind of despite the terrible environment, not because of it, not as if it’s an optimal environment. And like you said, it’s so individual. How does each person take in information? I prefer reading. I’m not auditory at all. David’s much more hands-on and experimental. So, long lectures just wouldn’t hold his attention. He needs to be moving at all times. There are definitely times I turn to people who know more than me about a particular subject. I love that. It’s fun to see how they approach it, how they move through the challenges. But in the end, their approach may or may not work for me, but I can learn more about them, the subject, and ultimately myself as I’m able to move in and out of that type of learning environment. I think the big thing here is just as we start to question and observe, ourselves, kids, our partners, see all the different ways that learning is happening every day around us. And it really just opens up such a new world. ERIKA: I love that. This idea is so huge. Once I started thinking about it, it’s like, oh my gosh. And it was one of my biggest paradigm shifts at the beginning of my own unschooling journey was realizing this truth. And I had a lot of fun digging into the word “teaching,” which started to not even make any sense to me anymore. Once I thought about it, it’s like somebody can say, “Well, I taught these kids how to do whatever.” And it’s like, but did you? You could say that you told them about it, but you really can’t say what happened inside of their brains. And so, I really liked questioning the word “teaching” overall and trying to move to the idea of just learning. Learning does not require teaching. Learning happens inside of the learner. And having someone teach you could be a way of learning something, but those two are not necessarily connected. And just because a teacher says that they taught people does not mean that they learned it. I know that’s true from my own experience in school and my experience as a classroom teacher in high school. I’ve taught more than high school. I taught music classes and some little kid classes as well. Everyone is so unique, every individual is so unique. And what I’ve seen is that process of teaching, the way that I would teach makes sense to my brain. It’s such a challenge to try to, what they would call in school, differentiate your instruction in order to meet everyone’s brains. But then the thing that’s missing from that is the interest. And so, the way people actually learn is by being open to learning and about being ready to learn. And so the format is less important. And the teacher is just a possibility. It’s not the only thing. And it’s not the thing that makes learning happen. I really think that having that experience as a teacher probably helped me get there a little bit faster on this part, because I’ve seen it. And so, I know that the classroom experience can be really frustrating for teachers and students. But I think you’re right, it’s not an optimal environment for learning in any way. Because we’re trying to get every single different person onto the same page in the same method. Trying to learn the same thing. And that just doesn’t really make sense if we think about how different everyone is. So yeah, I love this one. PAM: Yeah, I mean, for me, too, Erika, this was one of my big first shift. Because as you were saying, Anna, I didn’t want to be a teacher. When the kids came home, it was, oh, so I’m supposed to teach them now. But to recognize that teaching didn’t mean learning was happening at all. Why don’t I use the lens of learning for a while? Because anytime I use the word teaching in a sentence, I could actually rephrase it to look at learning instead. And looking at it through that lens was just so helpful for me on my journey. And it’s something to dance with, which we talked about. We've talked about the pendulum swing. We may think, oh, well, if teaching doesn’t make them learn, I guess I won’t teach. And then if we’ve started thinking of everything we share as teaching, I shouldn’t tell them things, right? So, you just let them figure it all out themselves. And then you recognize, oh, no, I can be part of this picture, as you were talking about, and I like dipping in and out when somebody else has more knowledge that you’re interested in getting. And Erika, you pointed out how important the interest part is. Because that is when it all bubbles up, right? When somebody is interested, maybe they’re asking questions, maybe they’re trying to do something. And we’re like, hey, I know a little something about this. This is how it works for me, do you want me to show you how it works for me? Keeping in mind that learning looks very different for each person. But we can still share the stuff that we know, that we think, all those pieces. So, the dance of the relationship of learning, for me, it’s really, really fun. And I don’t need to frame that as teaching. It’s just our relationship and how we all enjoy learning new things that we’re interested in at the moment. And so, Erika, something you said there at the end leads very much to the next truth that we wanted to talk about, about how people learn better when they’re interested and how teachers have this thing that they are supposed to be teaching. But so, anyway, second truth, curriculum is unnecessary for learning. That is something that many of us grew up with. It was a foundational truth that we didn’t even visit. School curriculum is all about just creating and delivering this linear system all around teaching delivery. It’s about divvying up all the bits that they want to teach over the next however many years equally, so that, this is what we do in grade one math, grade two math, grade three, blah, blah. And while most teachers understand that the most effective learning happens when the topic is relevant to the learner’s life, at least even better if they’re actually interested in it, that’s just not possible within this system, right? And most of the time, curricula is out of step with the learner. So, we flipped the perspective between teaching and learning. Let’s consider learning without following a curriculum. What would that look like? And what would that look like through the lens of a particular child? And when you think about it, that unique set of knowledge and skills that will be valuable to that child will be different, definitely, maybe a little bit, maybe wildly, from a school’s generalized curriculum, right? I think it’s so interesting to contemplate what our child chooses to learn just by following their curiosity and their interests as actually creating a beautifully individualized quote “curriculum” that really just fits them like a glove, because it meets them where they are in each moment. ERIKA: I like how that turns it on its head. We could still use the word curriculum, if we want to. It’s just completely different than it was in the school context. And I really think that this truth was hard to see when I was in the middle of it, because they’re saying that school is about learning, but school is more like a game where you have a goal to get good grades. And so, when you’re in that system, it doesn’t really matter what’s on the curriculum. That’s just the process of this particular game that we’re trying to play. So, it didn’t matter if something that I would want to learn was missing from that curriculum, because the point was to get good grades on this curriculum, so who cares? But in the real world, there’s just so much outside of school learning. If you think about almost anyone’s work in the real world, there are just so many aspects to it that are specific to that field that would never have been covered in school. I learned that curriculum was really chosen because it’s easy to test, or it’s easy to assign grades to these particular areas. Math could be so interesting. But school math has to be easy to grade. And the testing is really easy, based on the things that they’ve chosen for the curriculum. And so, once I realized that, it’s just so much less important than it feels when you’re inside that system. What people are supposed to learn in school, are not actually the most important bits of knowledge for living life. It’s much more random than that. And so, that’s why so many people get out of school and they’re like, why didn’t they teach us about these important things? Taxes, or how to buy a house, or fix my air conditioning system, or whatever, like things that would actually be useful, or even being in relationship, communication tools. Those would be useful things for life. What I’ve seen since then, in our unschooling lives, is that kids following their interests really does include everything that they’ll need to know for the life that they want to lead, which makes perfect sense. If they’re living the life they want to lead, they’re going to be learning the things that make sense for that. And so, any additional learning that looks more like school subjects could come up naturally, or maybe they’re just curious. What if they’re like, I’m curious about what school math is like. And so, it could be a side project if it’s interesting to them. But another great benefit of learning without a curriculum is like you were talking about the pacing and the order in which they learn is so individual and unique. So maybe they would be considered very far ahead in one area or behind in another area, according to school, but in the real world, that there’s no ahead and behind, there’s not a fixed order to things in the same way. And so it’s like what you were saying, developing their unique web of learning based on what makes sense to them and developing their own interests and skills as they grow with their unique brains, which is just going to look so different for different people. ANNA: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love that piece of really deconstructing the whole of it. What is the goal? And what tools do they have? Because they're saying, we’re going to take the things out of math that are the easiest to measure. We’re not looking at what are the most important things of math to learn about, because they may not be easy to measure. And as soon as you start to unpack and deconstruct that a little bit, it’s like, wait a minute, why are we all in service of this system? What is that serving? I think a big sticking point for me with school learning has always been that linear aspect of it. It’s interesting, because it stuck out to me at first when I was pregnant and going through natural childbirth classes, we talked a lot about how labor isn’t linear. Doctors and hospitals would have you believe that you’re dilating at this set rate per hour. And if you don’t, they want to intervene. Well it’s one centimeter per hour we need to be doing. But that’s not how the body works. You know, it’s fits and starts, rests and surges. And so quickly, I could see how that made sense with learning, too. We aren’t going to learn one number a day. And then the next day, we’re going to learn one number. And let’s learn one color. No, no more colors today. Just this one color. And I saw my kids get interested in colors when they were so young, and wanting to know the color of everything, running around the house. What’s this? What’s that? Showing me all the pieces. That’s how they get excited about things and want to make sense in their brain. I saw them dive so deeply as they were exploring any topic, because you could see them building this context, building their web, placing the new information into their existing web. It is anything but linear, and any interruptions or redirections just messed with their flow. And that really reminded me of another thing I remember from my own time at school, was being in class in the middle of a large geometry proof, and the bell would ring, and on to a completely unrelated subject. Now we’re going to talk about history. And only to have to get back into that mindset for the proof later that night to do my homework, because it didn’t get finished during the class. And I hated it. I loved proofs so much, but I wanted to do them from start to finish without interruptions, because there’s so many pieces to it. But the constant interruption just killed my natural love of learning and love of math. And I just started playing the game, like you’re talking about, Erika. I just started playing the game. Okay, this is what they’re wanting me to do, is just check these boxes. So, give them what they want for the test, and then promptly forget it, because it doesn’t mean anything. And what I learned was not the material that was being presented, but how to survive and master that system. And so, I just think that’s happening every day in schools all around us, and nobody’s talking about that piece. And I will say that I definitely looked at all the different curricula when my girls were young. I was like, oh, there’s all these cool nature-based ones, because that’s what I love. But like we’ve talked about with any kind of classes before, I’d look at these things, and I’d feel like, oh my gosh, they’re so dumbed down, because even those more alternative curricula, we’re trying to make it linear. We’re going to learn about this bug today. Doesn’t matter if you’re seeing other bugs outside. We’re just going to do this one. And after observing my kids learning when they were so young, I knew context was everything. And to divorce a subject from the context of it just made it so abstract. It lost the meaning and just became about memorization. Okay, we’ll memorize what these bugs are. We won’t look at where they are, where we’re finding them. And it almost felt like it was tying their hand behind their back, because the world is so rich with things to learn, to see in context, to explore. And I came to believe that really no curricula could improve upon engaged parents exploring, supporting kids as their interests popped up in their kind of natural environment. And I say that to say, it’s not just schools that can do this. We can do this in homeschooling as well, if we’re trying to follow this linear model and not really watching how humans learn and understanding the specific brains of the people in our family. PAM: Yeah, that’s that whole curriculum piece, right? And another aspect that came up for me recently, in this area, someone commented on one of my Substack posts where I was talking about learning, and I’ll link to it in the show notes. But it was really interesting. They were very favorable. But the one thing they were concerned about was learning gaps. Gaps in their knowledge. And it’s just so bright now, having thought through all this. But look at all the assumptions that are just built into that learning, the idea of a learning gap, or summer learning loss, all those ideas. Because, number one, you basically got a curriculum against which you are comparing what somebody should know at some age for you to determine that’s a gap or you didn’t learn that when you were supposed to. So you’ve tied in curriculum there. And no matter how much people talk about lifelong learning, if you’ve still got a curriculum that something should be known by some particular age, lifelong learning doesn’t fit. It doesn’t matter when somebody learns something. When you have bring that lifelong learning lens to it, it’s like, when is it important? When are they interested in it? When will they actually use it? That’s a great time to learn it. It’s not like you need to learn in the past, in case someday you need it in the future, which is a lot of what curriculum is based around. So, I just found that to be super interesting, that there are just so many pieces wrapped up that just assume curriculum is the way people learn. And that just shows up and says, but I’m worried about learning gaps, which you can totally understand, but my goodness. ERIKA: I totally understand it. But it’s so interesting, because if you think about something, like if you were to point out to that adult about their learning gaps, something that they don’t know about, it’s like, oh, but that isn’t important. So, the school curriculum devalues everything outside of it. And so, learning gaps can only happen with school learning. You wouldn’t say, I have a learning gap about auto mechanics or something. I’m not expected to know that. And so, I think that’s super interesting and really something for us to turn around in our minds so that we value all of the different things that people might want to learn about and not just this one set. ANNA: Right, because I guarantee any of those kids that we’re talking about having a learning gap, they know things off the charts that other people, adults included, don’t know, because they followed a passion or interest. We see that all the time. And like you said, you wouldn’t say I have a learning gap because I don’t know about chainsaws like my husband does, but that serves him. And so, yeah, I think that’s one of those thoughts like my thought about how I don’t want to be a teacher. It’s that it's so baked in. It’s so baked in that we don’t even see it. PAM: Yeah, yeah. And that’s what I was excited to point out. It’s not that when that thing was being taught that we were just sitting in a corner, not doing anything, we were just learning so many other things. And I think this conversation also comes up some with some unschooling families when their kids decide to try school or they want to go check it out. And then all of a sudden, they’re measuring their knowledge versus the knowledge they think the child should have in whatever grade, etc. And, oh, we need to catch up. But instead of the phrasing “catch up” and “behind,” bring the lens of they’ve been learning all sorts of other things. Yeah, maybe not what matches specifically that curriculum, but they’ve been learning all sorts of other things. And they don’t lose those if they decide to go check out school. That is there, as you were talking about before, Anna, how rich life is, the context, all the things we know that are related to who we are as a human being and the things that we’re interested in. And if school becomes something we’re interested in, it’s like, oh, I’m not behind, but I’m bringing my full self. And then I can learn those other things, rather than getting all stressed, like, oh, my gosh, did we fail because they don’t know? ANNA: Okay, one quick thing before we move on, because I think it’s where we have that hierarchy, where we’re thinking school is somehow this important monolith, whatever we want to call it. And really, that’s why this deconstruction process is so important to understand school for what it is. It serves a particular purpose, and it is what it is. But if you were to take your child and put them into an auto mechanic shop, you wouldn’t expect them to know all the things in the auto mechanic shop. You would know they need to figure those things out and learn them. And someone might tell them about stuff, and they might read a book, and they might try different things. But why can’t we have that same environment with school to go, okay, yeah, they haven’t learned about how they annotate things and do this particular thing a certain way, so then they’ll learn about it, versus there’s something inherently wrong that they don’t know about it. Because it’s its own system, no different than any of these other systems. It’s not better or worse, but that takes the deconstruction to understand what’s behind it and how we got here. PAM: Oh, that’s beautiful, beautiful. Okay, yes, we should move on. The third truth is that children are always learning, because I mean, they really, really are. Humans are, right? But when you look at kids, you can see it in action, whether or not you can name it, whether or not they can name it, they are learning. Even when they’re cocooning, even when they’re watching a favorite show on repeat, they are having an experience. And the idea that children are always learning implies that learning doesn’t just happen at school, it doesn’t just happen with the teacher. So, let me go back another layer, and that nudges us to consider the idea that all learning is valuable, just like we were saying, like auto mechanics to somebody who needs that information and skill is just about as valuable to stuff that would appear in a regular school curriculum. Learning about themselves, learning about being in relationships with others, as you were talking about earlier, Erika, learning what they like and what they don’t like, what they’re curious about, what seems uninteresting, and how that changes over time. That is just all such valuable learning. Facts and skills are just other bits that are on that buffet table of learning, which each person can individually select at any particular time, what they’re interested in. And without the curriculum, and with this always learning lens, that brings us right back to that rich context that you were talking about, Anna, because if we’re following a curriculum, we’re really just picking out those bits. But when we’re like, I’m interested in this thing, all the things that are connected or that we notice come with that, when we’re not just focused on the quote “important little bits.” ANNA: And I think we’re at such an interesting time in human history, too, where we have access to everything, to people, to resources, to information that is very unique to our time, if we look back over the long scale. But no matter what, it’s really almost impossible to stop a human from learning. Even if you had no internet, you’re still going to be learning what’s important to you, what’s right in front of you. Every minute, we are taking in information, learning about ourselves, those around us, the environment. Learning is so much broader than the idea of subjects at school. And as I said earlier, divorcing concepts from context is really counter to actually learning about the concepts. And I feel that way about math, English, history, music, all of it. It’s that interconnectedness. It’s that understanding why we need it, why it’s important, how it serves us in the life that we want to live. That’s what gives it meaning and helps it stick. I loved watching my oldest as a toddler when she was putting things into context. The lion we saw in a book, then she saw it on a show, then she saw it at the zoo. And you could just see her building this web of understanding about it. And it’s so amazing to watch. I think that’s the special thing about kids is that they have so much context to build. So it’s happening very quickly. I think we’re all doing it as adults too, but we’ve been working on that web a little bit longer. So, I think it’s so much easier to see in that young child. And I think just that important piece of not ranking learning. Learning numbers is no more valuable than learning to draw or learning that you don’t like bright lights or learning how to be in relationship. It all has value. And I guess if there would be a ranking, it would be more about what helps you the most in your unique life. That’s really what we’ve been talking about. What helps you explore your interests, achieve your goals, be the person that you want to be. That’s a very different metric than what school values. And I think it’s why people get disenfranchised because they think I’m supposed to be learning this. They’re telling me this is important, but it’s not helping me towards my goal of being an artist or a musician or even a mathematician because it’s very different than what they’re doing in school. And so, I think that’s where people get where it feels bad and they start to think “I can’t learn” and all of those pieces. Okay, I’m going to stop. ERIKA: I remember getting those questions about, why do we need to learn this school? And I think most of the time I was pretty honest about, it’s on the curriculum and it’s going to be on a test. And so, that’s why we’re learning it. It’s interesting to some people and not to everyone. And I really think, people intuitively know that children are learning, especially when they’re babies and toddlers, like, as you were describing, you can just see it happening. But then we might forget if we think that learning happens in school. And so, we might forget that they were capable of that and they are still capable of that. And we all are. So if we think big kid learning needs to look like school, adult learning has to look like college courses, then you may not notice what’s actually happening and that learning is happening all the time. But as we were talking about earlier, what they learn might be outside of that limited range of what is like observable learning in school. And what’s really interesting for me to think back on is what I learned in school was also mostly outside of the range of what was tested. The memories I have of school and what I learned there were about people, how to be safe, like what the signs are of dysregulation, is what I would call it now. But that kind of hypervigilance, watching how people are behaving, how the teachers are behaving, how we’re being treated, and all of that kind of stuff. That is much more my memory of school than any particular little curriculum item that I would have learned and then forgotten. And so, how kids learn outside of school might not look anything like how it was taught in school, or how you remember learning it and everyone’s brains are different. I definitely have seen unschooling parents say they’re just not learning anything or things like that. And it’s just like, maybe let’s look at it differently, because that’s not possible. And so, the way that a unique child puts together their own web of learning, I love that image for it too. It makes so much sense that each person’s construction of their web is unique to them. And I’ve heard my kids come back about things and be like, oh, that’s what that meant when I saw that on that show one time. They will literally make connections, and I can see it happen, but it may not look anything like something that I would have thought they were supposed to have learned. But it’s just natural human learning. And there are so many internal things that people are learning. I think even in my experience in school, or other kids' experience in school, there are so many internal things they’re learning about themselves, they’re learning about relationships and human nature, it might look like they’re learning nothing. But I trust that they’re getting what they need out of those moments and putting together their own web. PAM: Right? That is so often conventionally devalued, because in school, that’s not measured. You want to measure just on those little bits that you know now. And then when we move on, the next time you kind of circle back, it’s just not valued. When you learn something and connect it, like you were saying earlier, Anna, it can’t really be measured. So, we can’t give it a grade. So, we just don’t consider it at all. It’s not part of school, which is how we come to see learning. Oh, my gosh! And I think that richness is just what is so missed, that context, that building that web of deeper understanding, that’s just so valuable. Okay, I’ll be quick. The fourth truth to explore. I love this one, too. And that is that learning is fun. Ooh, yes. Let’s try that one on for a bit. I think an interesting aspect of this idea. It’s something that you will, when you start learning about unschooling, you will come across it pretty quickly. The idea that our focus isn’t on learning a particular skill. We talk about following their interests and their passions instead of following a curriculum. So, from there, they pick up the skills that we’ve talked about that are helpful along the way, but they do it on their own timetable versus the curriculum’s timetable. I like to use reading as a classic example, because that’s something that people are concerned that their kids learn quickly. And that’s totally understandable, because at school, learning to read is definitely a goal. One that they hold out as key for a child to be able to learn. And again, that makes sense, because at school, not being able to read can definitely interfere with learning, because so much of the communication at school is written. It’s a characteristic of that system. Here’s your worksheets, write this test. It’s all about words and reading. But when the goal is pursuing their interests and passions, they have the time and space to find all sorts of ways to engage with the thing that they’re interested in. And we are there to read things for them whenever they like, if that’s how they want to bring in some information. And they also have the time and space to explore just that complex puzzle of reading in their own way, and at their own pace when their unique brain is ready for it. So not reading is in no way a handicap to learning when we’re unschooling. Another layer around the idea that learning is fun. It reminds us that people learn in different ways, as we’ve been talking about this whole time. Real learning is just so much more interactive and fluid than a classroom can accommodate. You really just have this one teaching style learning with reading, writing, communication, that’s really what you’ve got for learning there. Okay, then there’s yet another layer, because we like peeling back layers, and seeing how when kids are following their curiosity and pursuing their interests and goals, so often this learning happens almost incidentally, like they’re just having fun. They’re just like doing the thing they wanted to do. And it doesn’t even need to be labeled as learning. Once we get to that layer, at first we want to see, we want to expand our understanding of what learning is by basically labeling everything they do as learning. And then it’s like, when everything is a thing, then we don’t even need to label it. But because when they’re just engaging and doing the thing, it just now makes sense to them, and they remember it, like we were talking about earlier, because they chose to engage with it, it means something to them, and they’re going to be using it because it’s something they’re interested in. So even if something gets challenging or frustrating for a little while, so often they choose to keep going, because it’s helping them accomplish something that they want to do. And again, they learn along the way, they learn how to deal with frustration, feelings, learn how to move through those, maybe learn how to take a break. They learn how to choose, is this worth continuing pushing through or do I want to give it a break now? Do I never want to see it again? And then they learn six months later, it's not quite as hard as it was when they first burst out with it. But yeah, learning can be so much fun. ERIKA: Yes! And I feel like when they do hard things because it’s important to them instead of because someone’s telling them to, all of those things, it’s so curious to think about. And I really think the fact that in our schools, at least in my country right now, they’ve pushed the curriculum lower and lower into the younger ages, because it’s like, oh, well, if we want them to be at this level at this age, then they should be preparing for that earlier. And so, I mean, it’s gotten to the point where there is three-year-old curriculum that’s preparing them for four-year-old. All of this exists now. And so, this is not developmentally aligned. It doesn’t actually make any sense. And it backfires, because then kids think that they are stupid, or they think, I’m not good at this, or whatever internal messages they develop. But it’s really because we’re putting things on them in schools that their brains are not ready for, literally not ready for it. And so, there are kids who can thrive in that environment. But it’s pretty unusual. And so, following what’s most interesting to them, it’s like a little secret. I feel like it’s just the best way for them to learn everything. And I love that you pulled reading out, because it’s a tool. Reading is not an end result. And in school, it feels like reading is this end result. And we get so focused on it. Can they read? Can they read? It’s like, okay, but reading is a tool that humans use. Writing and reading are to help us share information with each other. This is a way that we can learn about things or research things or whatever. And so, reading is part of life, because it’s helpful to us. It’s not important as a skill on its own. Treating it like that, like a tool that is helpful, makes so much more sense. What I saw with my kids is they were curious about reading. They wanted to be able to do it because it would help them. It helps them in their games. It helps them communicate with others and all of this. And so, it really was a journey that they owned for themselves and it didn’t feel like me pushing them to learn it younger than they were ready to learn it. It felt like their curiosity was the driving force and then they picked it up as they needed in a way that made sense for their own brains. And so, I think kids just naturally learn about what’s fun and interesting to them. And when they’re young, it looks like playing and when they’re older, maybe it still looks like playing, or maybe it starts to look like something different and unique to them. It could be projects or processing ideas with us or interacting with friends. Maybe they want to sign up for a certain class. Maybe they love collecting certain things or whatever it is. It’s so unique to each individual person. I think the idea that learning isn’t fun that school gives us is so terrible and damaging to people. ANNA: Oh, it really is. Oh, and I love that you mentioned that reading is a tool, a tool among many other tools to learn and take in information. And I just love this whole idea that learning is fun. And I think it’s because I love learning all the things, that it is fun! And I love your point, Pam, about how unschooling, the learning almost appears incidental, but it’s so purposeful in the way that it’s helping the learner move towards something that’s important to them, whether that’s a goal, an understanding, whatever it might be. And I think because it can appear incidental, we brush it aside or think it’s not as important, or that it’s not this drudgery. And with any passion, the learning isn’t linear or confined to a subject. With a passion for Minecraft, you’re learning about building, geometry, animals, strategy, gems, tools, so many things. A passion for horses, the same. It incorporates all the school subjects, but then so much more, the connection, the nuances, all the pieces. And so, observation is really our friend here. Watch and walk alongside your kids and be amazed, because I was constantly amazed. And I think, Erika, you touched on this, unfortunately, one of the side effects of a poor school experience is a belief that learning has to be hard and it has to be drudgery to mean anything. But that’s not true. Learning is magic. It’s amazing. And again, there’s a deep internal drive that we have as humans to learn and understand the things around us. And as you both mentioned, it may not look like learning if we’re so narrowly defining learning, if we’re holding onto this school book drudgery as our definition of learning. But if you broaden your definition, you will see it’s rich and rewarding and absolutely equipping them to live a life that’s meaningful to them. PAM: Yeah. And you started talking about it and that’s the next truth that we’re going to explore, because they’re very related. So, that’s that learning is not hard. Through the lens of unschooling, that’s our next truth, that learning is not hard. And I found it distinct, because I could think learning is fun and hard. Like I want to enjoy learning, but it’s something hard that I do. So, I think that that’s why for me, I separated these out as well. And when you think about showing up at school, and this ties into what you were saying earlier, Erika, about the curriculum getting pushed down and down earlier and earlier, when kids are presented with this stuff, it really is so easy just to pick up the message that learning is hard. Because there are so many reasons in the classroom following this curriculum that it is hard for them. It’s totally true. Trying to learn something that you’re not interested in can definitely be hard. Trying to learn something that your brain is not ready to process and connect and bring together can definitely be hard. If it’s just something that’s not part of their day-to-day lives, so maybe they’re not super interested in it, but also they won’t be using it because it’s not something they need to do, then that is hard to learn because it often just doesn’t make sense. It’s just this little floating point, which earlier you mentioned, Anna, that’s when we end up stopping trying to understand what we would call learning and just memorize that factoid, because it has no context in our lives or in our interests. So, I just have to memorize this thing to perform on the test and to play that game. So, for lots of brains, learning in school and following curriculum is hard. And then just put yourself in there. If you’re trying to be interested in the thing, questions are so discouraged. And not because the teacher's just like, I don’t want to, but they don’t have time. If it’s not on the curriculum, we don’t have time to spend 20 minutes discussing it, because it won’t be on the test. How many people ended up asking that question eventually? It’s like, is this going to be on the test? And if not, you could just forget about it. It’s like, okay, I don’t even have to try memorizing or understanding it, because it’s not going to be on the test. When you imagine kids in school, their days really are just filled with that push and pull of what is it that I need to know? How do I memorize it? And in all that, because of all the testing and the grading, we become so afraid of being wrong and we can’t ask questions. So, we stop being curious about stuff. We have to answer questions on the test in exactly the same way that we were told. So, we don’t even try to think of other ways that might connect for us better or understand better. We have to say it the way it’s supposed to be said. So, our creativity fades. I just feel it’s become so ingrained in that school experience that we now think that is the human experience that learning is hard. Full stop. That’s just it. Learning for anybody is hard. But what so many unschooling parents have seen over these decades, as we’ve talked to more and more unschooling parents, what we’ve seen with our children is it’s the environment that makes a fundamental difference in how learning feels. When you’re doing the things that are interesting to you or that you want to learn, you’re following your curiosity, you’re following your needs, your own goals, oh my gosh, learning can be fun. And the incidental piece is like, it’s not hard because I’m meeting it where I am. And I’m meeting it right at the place where I can learn. If I do jump too far ahead, it’s like, this makes no sense. I’m going to find information or a person or whatever that’s going to meet me where I am. So, now I can just soak it up like that sponge. We can learn like little kids do no matter our age. When you think of challenging or frustrating moments in it, it doesn’t feel like the learning piece is hard. It’s just like, ooh, I’m trying to figure out this piece and I want to play around with it. I want to figure it out. It’s much less about defining all learning as hard, because this particular piece is challenging or frustrating for me in this moment. It’s just so interesting. ANNA: It’s true. And so this is going to sound a little bit cynical, but I think it’s really one of the ways that the powers that be keep us in line. Learning’s hard. You can’t do it on your own. You need these experts in this building or you’re not going to be successful. You’re not going to get a job. You won’t amount to anything. Because as soon as you realize learning isn’t hard when it’s in service of an interest and that you don’t need that expert and that building, the whole system starts to crumble. But truly what you said is so important to tease apart. Memorizing facts devoid of context is hard, especially for some brains. For other brains, memorization comes really easily and I think those people do well in school. And so, like most things, there is a grain of truth to the idea that learning is hard. It can be, but it doesn’t have to be. And for me, I think watching the babies and toddlers learning so much in such a short amount of time just really blew the lid off the idea that we can’t learn without proper instruction. But even then, they pick out specific things. Well, then reading’s going to be hard or math is going to be hard. But again, it’s made harder by that environment and by that environment not taking into account different brains and different timelines. And if something does seem hard, is it still hard if we let go of the agenda around it, the timeline around it, the context? Is it a context issue that’s making it feel hard? Can we examine something that we’re saying feels hard and just understand it a little bit more? A few months ago, a Network member talked about how people will say learning gets harder as you get older. It’s another truism, learning gets harder as you get older. When really, it’s that being in that school environment gets harder because as adults, we have much more context for living alongside learning. So, the artificial environment and arbitrary hoops make much less sense and are much less tolerable than when we were kids and didn’t know there was a choice. And I think that there are actually some kids that intuitively know there’s a different way and they end up not doing well in school, because they just keep bucking, like, I’m going find my way out of this tiny little narrow place that you’re putting me in, because I know there’s another world out there. And for a lot of us, we don’t really discover that until we’re adults and realize we just performed for that system for many, many years. And now there’s this whole other world out here. ERIKA: My kids didn’t go to school and I didn’t question it when I was in school. And so, this was a lot of new information for me and super interesting. But what I observed with my kids was that they just resist anything that doesn’t interest them, period. And that’s not every personality. My husband, Josh, and I are really curious and interested in almost anything, where my kids are more interested in very specific things. And so, I can be like, isn’t this cool? And they’re just like, no, like, why would I care about that? So, it’s so unique. And then imagine in school where they’re not even saying, isn’t this cool? Most of the time, they’re just saying, you have to learn this. It's important to learn it. Of course, it’s going to be hard. It’s going to be hard to learn something if your brain either isn’t ready for or if it holds no interest at all. It just is so logical now for me to think about that. But when I was in it, I didn’t know what was the problem with these other kids, that they weren’t actively participating or they weren’t trying hard or to do better. So looking back on it, I’m like, okay, that doesn’t make any sense though. The reason why I’m doing well in this system is because I’m good at memorizing or because I’m able to put my internal feelings and thoughts to the side in service of, this is what they said to do. I want to get this good score, whatever. And so, looking back when I was first coming to unschooling, I felt a little bit jealous of the people who had realized about school when they were actually in school and were a little bit more rebellious, because I just totally got sucked into the game. I didn’t even see it. I did start to see it when I was a teacher in school. But the more I think about this story that most people tell about learning being hard and learning being no fun, the more upset I get about this. Because it really doesn’t have to be that way. And I think it affects people for the rest of their lives, either thinking that they can’t learn or that they hate certain topics. And I think this is also the core of the “adults versus kids” conflicts that people have in their lives. Because if the adults are saying, this is the most important thing, and the kids are saying, this is hard and I hate it, that clash is so terrible. And so, I think some kids can push themselves through it, but I don’t think that it’s natural and it doesn’t really make any sense because, like you were saying about the memorization aspect of it, the things that I remember from school are few and far between. It’s not like that memorization type of learning to put it down on a test. It's not learning that lasts or that makes any sense as something we take with us through our lives as important information. And so, yeah, this one upsets me. PAM: I know, it’s so true. That is what is so fascinating about this stage of the journey, I think. Okay, so it’s been a long time. I do want to thank everyone for joining us. And we do really hope that you enjoy diving into this stage of the de-schooling phase as we challenge some of our conventional beliefs about learning. I really think, as you were saying, it fundamentally sets us up so negatively, those conventional beliefs of how you have to be taught by a teacher, you have to follow a curriculum, learning is hard, learning is not fun, all of those pieces, we bring all that weight with us into adulthood. And we carry the message that we can’t learn. But then all the fun stuff that we’re doing and the deep dives into our own passions and interests, we don’t call them learning because they weren’t on a school curriculum, right? ANNA: We devalue it. PAM: We still carry the message, I can’t learn. Oh sure, I love this and I could do this for hours, but that doesn’t count, right? I mean, it’s just so deep, the messages that we carry. We do invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network to continue these kinds of conversations. It is a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents, absolutely. And a nonjudgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional unschooling ideas and just explore what they might look like in the day-to-day of your unique and wonderful family of individuals. No matter where you are on the journey, just learning about it, been doing it for years, there are always layers to peel back around as things come up at different ages and stages. And we are very excited to welcome you. To learn more, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfully.ca and just choose Network in the menu. And thank you so much, Anna and Erika! We wish everyone a lovely, lovely day. ERIKA: Bye! ANNA: Bye, take care.

This year both the New Hampshire Legislature and U.S. Congress have been rocked by stories of misbehavior. When a legislator commits a crime, there is a clear process to determine wrongdoing, but the path forward is less clear when there are accusations of sexual misconduct, harassment, or verbal attacks. This article provides an overview of disciplinary options up for debate in the New Hampshire Legislature. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

We're back with another On the Journey episode! We had a rich conversation with Living Joyfully Network member Lucia Silva. Lucia was previously on the podcast in episode 251, Unschooling as a Lifestyle. She is an unschooling mom of two and she came back to share some updates about her unschooling journey. We talked about trusting our children’s learning journeys, Lucia’s inner growth and mindset shifts, as well as her experience in the Living Joyfully Network and how the community has supported her over the years. It was a really beautiful discussion and we hope you find it helpful! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid discussions about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Come and be part of the conversation! Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. EU251: Unschooling as a Lifestyle with Lucia Silva Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn't actually about unschooling. It's about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ERIKA: Hello, everyone. I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia, as well as our guest today, Lucia Silva. Hello to you all! PAM, ANNA, AND LUCIA: Hello! ERIKA: Before we begin our conversation with Lucia, I wanted to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, which has really been life changing for me in so many ways. On the Network, we have such great discussions about so many topics. Our community has such a wide variety of experiences, and everyone’s really interested in learning and growing and being intentional with their families. It’s really unlike any other online community I’ve found. Being part of the Network offers powerful support, especially during those moments when fears pop up or if you’re new to unschooling and just need a place where people understand what you’re going through. If you’d like to learn more about the Network and check it out for yourself, you can visit livingjoyfully.ca and click on Network at the top of the page. And we’ll also leave a link for that in the show notes. We would love to meet you. So I’m very excited that we get to talk to Lucia today. I met Lucia on the Living Joyfully Network and have just loved getting to know her over the years. And she was also on the podcast back in episode 251 and shared her journey to unschooling in that episode. I encourage everyone to check that out as well. And we’re excited to dive in for an update five and a half years later, which is wild. So Lucia, we would love to hear what everyone is interested in right now. LUCIA: Five and a half years later sounds like, in the scope of kid time, it’s so long. It’s so long. And then thinking, how long have you been unschooling? Five and a half years still seems really new. So, it’s interesting to think about those elastic times. And it was fun to see how some things are just so similar. I’m sure you guys see that with your kids. But, wow, I can connect where they’re into the exact same thing. So there’s four of us. It’s me and my husband, Micah, and my two kids. They’re older now. To respect their privacy, I’m not going to be using their names. And I’ll just refer to them with neutral pronouns. They said I could talk about them in general. My oldest child is still really into ballet. And that’s their primary passion. And that has remained strong, grown, changed a little bit. It’s not what they want to do professionally, but it is just a primary part of their lives. They’re also still really into reading and drawing and making. They have a great friend group. And they do lots of fun stuff. I just dropped them off at the botanical gardens to hang out with friends this morning. And let’s see, there was one other thing I wanted to mention. I lost my train of thought. My younger child, back when I originally did the podcast, they were really into building and constructing items out of stuff. And I had not really forgotten, even though we still have a lot of that preserved in the garage. But they’re really into building tabletop games, mostly card games. They’re constantly inventing new games. We’ve brought a lot of them to the table, done a lot of design. We’ve taken them to little fairs and sold lots of them. And we have game tournaments. They’re kind of based around the Wings of Fire lore, because that’s what their friends were into when they started it. It’s turned into this thing where they have this whole group of friends that are waiting for the next booster pack to come out. But it’s kind of amazing to see connections, from that fascination with construction, like moving pieces, how they fit together. And now it’s, Mom, I have a new game. And it’s this whole fully formed game mechanics and point values. Now it’s branching out to some things that aren’t just trading card games. They’re thinking about what would be a good family game? But mostly card games. So they’re really into that. They’ve gotten really into fencing and chess, which I think are both similar sort of mental games. And they love talking with Micah about probability problems and stuff like that. They’re also really into philosophy and philosophical debate, or debating anything. So that’s that. And I think when we last spoke, Micah, my husband, was a professor at UGA, and he’s now moved into tech. And along that whole journey, so much of what we’ve gone through in our unschooling journey, I’m putting that in air quotes, because it just sort of becomes your entire sort of life philosophy, unschooling. But that has really been so meaningful for him on his journey of just learning the way his mind works, what his interests are, stuff like that. So he’s still in the research, data field, has gotten really into improv and musical improv with a little group here, and plays music all the time. And I am, I think, still doing a lot of the same things. I like to sew, and I’m reading, and I love following little rabbit trails and researching anything and dabbling about here and there. ANNA: So fun. All the things, but how they all weave together, right? You can just picture the household and the weaving together of all the things. ERIKA: I love connecting it back to the old conversation and seeing how that tracks, because we always talk about that, looking back and seeing how those threads connect together. And it just also makes me think, oh my gosh, kids are all so different, the things that they love and are interested in. You can’t predict it. And it's just so interesting. PAM: Yeah, I loved hearing the piece of looking back and now seeing how that is weaving into the things they’re interested in right now, because they can seem very different. Yet, when you look back, you can see the thread that underlies the various things together over time. And that is so interesting, just as a piece of knowledge, just a little bit more understanding about who they are, right? I think that is super cool. Did you want to say something? LUCIA: Oh, just as you were saying that I realized that along the way, I feel like that’s given me, it’s a really important reflection to have when they get interested in something that maybe I’m unsure about, like video games, for example, and thinking, what is happening with all this time? And it’s so easy to see what’s underneath for them. How does this work? How do the team dynamics work? How do I analyze these moves? It doesn’t mean that if you’re not doing that, it’s not important, but there’s always something going on underneath an interest unless they’re not being attended to, right? But if it’s intentional, just like we’re intentional. And seeing that there is that through line and that intention under it. Oh, and then sorry, one other thing about my oldest kiddo, who’s really into working with kids these days. They’re interning at a Waldorf school and they’ve been babysitting a lot too, which is a job, and they assist in the little kids’ classes at our co-op. There’s something underneath it that’s more like a passion rather than just like, oh, I go babysitting. Looking at the intention they bring to that and how respectful they are of the children, their privacy, what they’re going through and what reverence they have for that job. I mean, there’s all kinds of ways to have a job, but also to look at that as we are spending a lot of time doing that because I’m seeing that it is something that is really important to them to do rather than, oh, they’re working or they’re working without getting paid. PAM: All the different stories we can tell ourselves, right? But when we take that moment to actually dive a little bit deeper, so often we can see those threads. We can see the intentionality rather than the surface story that just, oh, I’m taking them to their job. They’re doing this thing. I don’t quite know why they’re not getting paid. Whatever lenses that kind of automatically bubble up, if we take a minute to just dig a little bit deeper and see what else comes up alongside it, it is really exciting. And it helps, as I think back, just helps with the mechanics too. Like I don’t mind driving them to X, Y, Z because I know the impact and what they’re getting out of it. I’m not just a chauffeur or something like that. If I take that as the superficial story of what’s happening, but no, I’m fundamentally supporting their pursuit of something that they are intentionally interested in. Who knows where it will go? We’ve talked a lot about how you really can’t predict it because we can guess but it’s really only looking back where we can see those threads and the connections and go, oh my gosh, I am so glad that I supported and helped with that along the way. ANNA: I just want to say I feel like this is a core piece of unschooling for me, this valuing the experience and the exploration and facilitating that. But it’s hard because it doesn’t necessarily have a product at the end, or it doesn’t necessarily even have a photo op or whatever the thing might be that grounds it in our culture. But gosh, it’s such a big part of it. And when you can take this time to look back, you do see those threads and you do see that growth. And again, it may be that they end up doing something with children, but maybe they’re just building a wealth of information and connection and relationship pieces that’ll be used in some other way. So yeah, just love that. ERIKA: It’s trusting, trusting that they know, right? They know the thing that’s interesting now, and that’s going to lead to something. And I feel like it can be hard because we are always seeing through our own lenses. That’s the part that can be challenging about that for me. I think, but it doesn’t make sense. Or why would you want to spend your time doing that? Or little judgmental feelings can come up just based on what it would be for me, like that interest doesn’t make sense to me. I think if we can drop that part, drop the judgment and just trust that they know themselves and this is going to lead to whatever it needs to lead to for them. I really love them. LUCIA: And it is so hard for people, they really want to attach it to something. Are they going to be a professional dancer? Are they going to go into child development? I’m like, I don’t know. Are you going to become a historian because you learned about the battle of the bulge. I get it. I think they want to know that everything’s okay. I understand it, but it’s important, or it’s been important for me to make my little energetic bubble and go like, yeah, is that cool? No, they don’t want to be a professional dancer because of XYZ or whatever. Then their face falls, oh, but they dance for 12 hours a week. Yes, that’s pretty awesome. That’s still great. It’s very, it’s just interesting when you get so steeped in this, to have to pull yourself out and see through those eyes, right? Remembering, that’s where they are. And I get it. And I’m going to figure out how to talk to you about this in a way that doesn’t make you so worried. PAM: Yes, I would want them to not be worried. Although I have no control over that. I got those questions so many times, especially as your kids get older, right? People start, well, then what are they going to be? Et cetera. And I got to a point where I just loved answering those with, “I don’t know, maybe.” They look at you like, don’t you know your child? LUCIA: Don’t you care? Well, especially as they get older, right? When they’re seven, that’s fine for everybody. When they’re 15 going on 16 and everybody’s talking about college and what are you going to do? And they look at you like, do you not care? Are you going to abandon them? And they’re starting to feel that, not pressure to do, but pressure to answer. Luckily we don’t get that from our family. So, I’d like to care a little bit less, but we’ll encounter adults who are like, what are you going to major in? Oh, are you going to this? Are you going to that? What do I say? It’s like, well, here are the options. We can prepare a little, you can just be out there with it. ERIKA: It depends on how humorous you want to be. You have lots of options. PAM: Oh my goodness. So I wanted to pull back something that you mentioned a little bit earlier and we’ll tie it in with the first interview we did. Episode 251. I do recommend everyone go back there and check out because you talked a lot about your journey to unschooling there. The theme and the title of the episode was unschooling as a lifestyle. And like you said earlier, it just becomes the way you live. So I was curious as you look back, how has your journey evolved so far? Because we know it will continue. And what things have helped you along the way? LUCIA: Well, I did read the transcript of that episode again. I had a vague idea. And it was so interesting to me to see both how I was at the beginning and how I was already like two feet in, here’s what we’re doing. And a lot of the sort of philosophy for lack of a better word, or like the ideas now are just, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I know then that my yes was a different kind of yes. It just had a different feel and I was really eager and trying hard. And now a lot of those things just feel like, Oh wow. I can’t believe I was worried about that. That was my primary focus. I totally remember feeling that way. And I was thinking of Pam’s unschooling journey. Also, that was the first book that I read. That’s what it’s called, right? The Unschooling Journey. PAM: Yes. LUCIA: And thinking about the Network as this constant companion and knowing that the unschooling journey is based around this idea of the hero’s journey as the journey into and through unschooling. And I’m thinking about how many times we do that journey in this spiral, right? This big sort of macro journey of we won’t do that and we won’t do this and let go of that. And we’re okay with this and then you go the next layer in and in and in, and now we’re sort of on this really micro journey where sort of everything spins around more quickly. I enter an unfamiliar situation or way of thinking, or how do I feel about this that my kid wants to do? How do I feel about this and do a little whole circle of a journey with that. And I realized that for me, and I think for a lot of us who are part of the Network, that it’s a mix of a companion, a champion, an oracle, like all of the things that those mystical mythical heroes come upon that reveal some little truth, here’s a little encouragement, here’s your magic potion to keep you going. But, for me, symbolically, there is no way, I guess I won’t say there’s no way I could have done it without the Network. But I know that my life is just totally different because of it. I know that every relationship I have is totally different because of it. I know that our family is totally different because of it. And it’s funny, because I never get to talk about the Network. I think all the people outside my life know that I’m part of this unschooling network. They know it's this online thing, and I have to go to a Zoom all the time. People will ask, why do you have all these Zoom meetings? Do you have a job? I’m like, no, no, I have, it’s a very important meeting I have to go to. Because there are all these layers to it. When we started, I approached it the same way I approached listening to the podcast as like, I was in mentorship mode. And I still am in a different way. I remember, every week, as soon as the talk came out, I would listen to it. And then Micah and I would sit together on the couch at night, and I’d either play certain parts, we’d listen to the whole thing. We were steeping in this lecture series, and then we’d talk about it. And I’d make notes and have these things I wanted to keep top of mind that week. And I could feel that transformation of ideas come loose in me and be like, okay, these are ideas I want to steep in. But then, I think I was maybe a little hesitant sometimes to post in the network, but I realized so quickly how much I learned from reading other people sharing it, everybody commenting and realizing this is unlike any other place that I’ve been. And in the same way that unschooling is unlike any other place that I’ve been. If you think of this as the ultimate community for that based on intentionality, and not based on this set of rules and ideals. Which is so funny that a lot of the homeschooling and unschooling communities online turn into exactly that. Because I think people look for advice. And there’s always one person who wants to be the expert. And that person ends up being the quote, unquote, expert and having the rules and you’re either in or you’re outside of that. And what I love seeing, even now, when somebody new comes into the Network, I learned so much from reading their new posts and the new things they’re wondering about. And I learned so much from people who are dealing with things that could seem totally irrelevant to me and my family. You learn so quickly how to read into the core of that relevance, how to offer support from your own experience to receive support from that shared experience. And the ability to share those things and be in a space that is really without judgment, which is so weird. Especially when you’re dealing with something that feels like a high principle, or just high intentionality. Most of those spaces, and I’ve been in a lot that have to do with unschooling, but also that have to do with health or lots of other things, and it can feel like there’s this sort of untouchable expert at the center, or this untouchable idea, and we’re all sort of at the feet of that. And feeling like we have this communal place, or real community, but also there’s this strong architecture that makes it so that anybody who walks into that space knows, gets the vibe. You can read the room really quickly, what’s going to be allowed here and not allowed here. There’s just not any bad behavior. So it feels really safe in those ways. But now it just lives in my head, all three of your voices live in my head, other people’s voices live in my head, phrases that people have said that I’ve written on a Post-it and stuck on my wall. So that sometimes throughout my day, like, I’ll be like, oh, okay, I’m feeling uncertain about this. I got to post in the Network. But I can write the whole post and all the answers before I even do it. I realized that’s why I’m maybe posting less, and I think I should just do this anyway, because it was so helpful for me then. And I love knowing that there are people in there who have been in there since I was there, whose kids are much older, and who aren’t visibly active so much. But just the other day, I posted something that was kind of a tender post. And immediately someone who had been in the group since I joined, who I wasn’t even sure was part of the group anymore, because I didn’t see them, but I thought about them as we’ve had some dialogue, and they just messaged me the loveliest message. Just knowing that there are people for whom this is so important. And just looking at the calls, I get so emotional sometimes when someone is sharing something. And everybody’s giving space, holding space, giving feedback, whatever it is. And I see these 16 tiles of faces. And I think these are parents all around the world, who are dedicating their Saturday morning or afternoon or whatever it is, to talking about their families and their self development as caring people who are stewards of other people in the world. And that just blows me away. I think that in and of itself is so powerful. ANNA: I feel like you captured it in a way that I don’t know that I could, because I think it’s really hard to explain to people. Because we do have those calls every week, we’ve been having them since we started in 2020. And I think of all of those weeks that we’ve had calls. And that’s the piece too, that this web of people all over the world, bringing such intention and there isn’t one path. And you know that we don’t ever talk about there’s one right way or one way to be. But gosh, have I learned so much from just seeing other people navigating all the different pieces in their life. And again, it may be a relationship issue, and maybe I’m not having that problem in my relationship, but just steeping in that intentionality and growth mindset is so powerful for me individually, and then just the collective of it is incredible. But yeah, I just am so grateful for you being there. And you really have seen it from the beginning and how it’s grown and what it looks like. I just really appreciated that and got very emotional, because it is, it’s so powerful. LUCIA: Yeah, and the growth mindset part of it. I think maybe you get lucky to meet a few people along the way in your real life who are invested in that. And I feel so lucky to have that in my partner, Micah, that’s where we are too, that is so important and central. And some people do have that with friends, but to be in a community of people where that’s their focus. And I think it’s maybe the kind of community that some other people may find in a totally different way in, like a church or something. I always wanted that type of community without any of the one right way, or the dogma piece. Even with the most wonderful ones, there’s a book we’re going to go back to, or there’s a principle we’re going to go back to. Well, our principles are there’s no one right way. Everybody’s different. These expansive ideas. Some people are nervous to come on the calls. At first, I know that I was, sometimes I'm even nervous now. But it’s hard to describe what it feels like once you’re there. It doesn’t feel like how I imagined, how can you create a warm, kind of magical community online on Zoom? I don’t know how it happened. But I think it’s just exactly that. You guys are the stewards of people coming together in this container with this intentionality, and everybody sort of rises to that occasion. And to do that kind of work in my life constantly is absolutely transformational. It’s changed every relationship I have. Really. ERIKA: It speeds up the process for me. I feel like being around people who are constantly kind of reminding me of things that I need to work through or things I want to process. It helps me grow faster. I don’t know if that’s the right word. But that’s what it feels like. I don’t know if I would have gotten to these places. You know? PAM: That’s the word that keeps coming up for me. This whole conversation is intentional, right? It’s like with that intentionality, and just showing up with that openness and curiosity. Okay, we’re going to go open and curious. Showing up with that piece, instead of the dogma, the direction, the measuring against, am I doing it right? Those are the pieces that we work hard to dispel, really, right? Which on one hand feels really good, there’s no rules to follow. And then on the other hand, it’s like, oh, what do I replace that with? What do I do if I don’t have a rule to orient myself towards? But that’s where the openness, the curiosity, and the intentionality come in. It’s the intentionality piece, like you mentioned, Erika, that helps with the moving forward versus feeling stuck. And I understand your hesitation about using the word fast to describe it, but maybe faster. It's the reminder to visit those things. And also the compassion when we don’t have the capacity in the moment, and the space, as you mentioned, just the space, right? Just the open space that’s there for whatever is going on. But I think that brings me back to the book, The Unschooling Journey, because number one, I love that you talked about the commonality of the different roles and people, mentors, and monsters. We talked about that a little while ago in the network, things that seem like maybe they’re getting in your way, but really, maybe they’re bringing messages. And that side is super interesting. And to see when we’re spiraling or using that journey, how we can go more quickly, because we have more experience, and we have more language to help ourselves walk through those pieces, to remember, oh, yeah, this is my intention. This is why I want to do this. And oh, yeah, this is new. Why is this bubbling up now? We’re always talking about that. It’s not that we don’t have challenges in life, we can just notice them a little bit more quickly, and move through them a little bit more quickly, because we gained these tools on what to do, instead of following the one path, right? ANNA: That’s what I was going to say. We talk about that a lot. It’s not like this makes it the panacea, that nothing ever happens. It’s not all rainbow and sunshines. But wow, do I catch myself faster. I reorient faster. I get back to connection faster. I just slow things down to be able to be present with whatever’s happening faster than if I didn’t have that. So I think that’s the piece, because it keeps happening, keeps happening, all these decades later. And there’s such a gift to it. And like you’re saying, I think it is faster, but there’s no end point. And I also appreciated you saying, Lucia, that it’s not always comfortable for people. I think some people come to an environment like the Network, and it isn’t comfortable because the one answer idea feels easier. Like, if you just give me the one answer, I’ll do it. That’s how we were trained in school. Tell me what I’m supposed to do, and I’ll do it. I’ll exceed the expectation. This is a little scarier in some ways, I think. But if you can just get past that fear piece of it, and kind of steep in that container of acceptance and curiosity, it’s so empowering. It just opens up so many possibilities. And I think it really speaks to people when they can get past that piece of, but wait, I don’t want to do it wrong. PAM: I was just going to say, that reminds me of, Pam, don’t lose it. When you mentioned it, Lucia, too, like when questions or challenges and things come up that don’t directly relate to things that are going on in our life, but it is still so useful to think through because it’s the foundational processes, right? It’s the tools that we’re using. How do we apply the tools in this situation and in that situation? And that is just so much more deeply useful because then that’s understanding the tools and how you apply it in different places. It just gives us so much more experience on the breadth of how I might take this tool and apply it to all sorts of different things. I think of when we first come to unschooling and you encounter a challenge and you go and you ask, and you get an answer and you’re like, oh great, that worked great. And then another challenge comes up a few months later. It’s like, oh my gosh, I don’t know what to do. I need to go ask and you ask and you get it, et cetera. If you’re not taking that intentional step to foundationally understand what’s the connection between why these different answers are working for me. I just find for me, I always need to go back and ask somebody because I haven’t learned the foundational stuff, gone underneath all that, where I can now think through something and help myself through it, et cetera. I don’t know if that makes sense. ANNA: Okay, wait, just really quickly. I think this is making me, sorry, this is making me think about why it makes it faster is because, and maybe it’s personality driven too, but I’m experiencing to some extent all of the issues. We have a member that’s gone through like house flooding and having to move and all the things she's navigating. Oh my gosh, I’m thinking of your thing with the fire extinguisher, Lucia. I haven’t gone through those things physically and yet I was able to sit with it, hold the container, process it myself, think about what that would mean. So I think that’s what makes it faster because we only have so many experiences in our life but I don’t need all of those personally to learn more. There’s something interesting about that. ERIKA: Yeah, I learned a lot about fire extinguishers from you, Lucia. I also, I wanted to pull back that other bit that I love that you said about intentional communities are often rule-based. I think that’s so interesting to think about. Maybe other people that we meet that are very focused on growth and intention, they are trying to do things the right way though. And so our intention is totally different because it’s an intention about figuring out how people are different and being open and curious, An intention to be curious about things, which just, it feels very different. LUCIA: Yeah, I mean, I wish it existed. I wish there was a beautiful room I could go to and be next to people and eat cookies and coffee afterwards. It’s like totally that part of it, but I realized it would be great if the world would be different. You reminded me when you were talking about going through all of these things, even if they’re not your experience. I realized that a lot of what I used to do and still kind of do it out of habit, a fear-based habit, when I would hear about someone had this emergency and they were misdiagnosed and it turned out I would catalog, okay, if they have a rash on their palms, they check for Kawasaki disease. I was cataloging these, okay, if my kid’s not talking by this age, I have to demand whatever it was, some fear-based, okay, I’m going to arm myself with this practical knowledge that will fend off any bad eventuality. And as we were talking, I realized that’s what we get, this real sort of other meta prevention, which is like we’re not going to prevent anything bad or practical happening, but what we have, we’re going to go through the same thing with it. If I’m feeling really strong about that, my priority is connection with the people involved, choosing out of love, being open and curious, all of the things that foundationally can feel like safety when so many things feel scary. Whether it’s that your kid’s playing video games or that they have an illness or that there’s a challenge. That there’s a different kind of safety, whereas I have always ascribed safety to rules and following best practices and figuring out the best way. So, this is something I’m still working on, but I like the concept. ANNA: Me too. I do think, because I think our brain can be, you and I are very similar in that, and well, all four of us really, knowing the four of us as I do. I think we all want to, we have that brain that’s cataloging and thinking all the things. But for me, that deep breath into, there’s plenty of time, staying in this moment, being open and curious really is the thing that provides me the most peace and safety, because I think it was so stressful for me when I thought I was preparing for every eventuality, especially in my first pregnancy, and then everything went to hell in a hand basket. It’s like, but wait, I did everything the “right way”, and that got me stuck, right? But I don’t get stuck there anymore, because I know things are going to happen, but what I know is that I can be present, I can have these connections, I can have these relationships, and that we’re going to figure it out. That feels more like real safety to me than what I was kind of chasing when I was younger with trying to do everything perfectly. PAM: I love that. ANNA: Okay, so I want to go to our next question, because I think it’s interesting. Something you’ve talked about on the network and reflected upon on calls is just observations about your kids and their relationship to themselves, and how you’ve seen them evolve as they’ve grown in this environment that you’ve created. How they move through the world, and so are there any little bits that you feel comfortable sharing just about your experience of that. LUCIA: Yeah, I mean, it has been so interesting. This is an area where I can so directly see. Where I’m just practically learning from them, just by observing how someone else can be in the world, and being someone who is shaped totally differently by an experience of looking outside and adhering to outside standards to determine how I feel, when I need rest, what kind of food I’m eating. To see the opposite of that, of people who have such a strong basis in that type of self-knowledge, intuition, self-reflection, and all bolstered by, I don’t want to say extreme, but just actual autonomy of being. And I don’t want to say I've given them autonomy, they’re not being prevented from being autonomous beings who have agency over so many areas of their lives, as much as possible. I believe that’s part of how they’ve developed this. Just watching how to do it. There’s no question, if they need to rest, they’re going to rest at this time, and if they they’re going to eat this kind of food, they’re going to eat this kind of food, and just this really strong conviction of anybody who gets in the way of that. And they’re not rude people, but it’s about people who press back on that, are you really going to eat that? You’ve been in bed all day, etc. They have no tolerance for that type of external judgment, and they have sensitive humor about it. They function pretty well in the world, but things that I’m so uncomfortable with, I feel like this is the big personal project of my life to try and unravel the ideas of, have I done enough work to deserve rest? What should a person of my age, what am I capable of doing in a day? Really having lost total touch with what I actually need to be resourced, and then living with people who are in total touch with what they need. And so, kind of going back to this idea of what are they going to do with their lives or major in, and also what we’ve been talking about as our process is in being open and curious, and all of these principles. That’s what they’re majoring in, right? You can do anything if you’re open and curious, you have a relationship with yourself that is grounded in trust or intuition. People see this, they will say, they’re so amazing, they’re such a pleasure to talk to, they just know who they are, but where are they going to go to college? You just answered your own question, so it’s fine. But really, it’s just a total flip side of priorities of what starts to happen being steeped in something like this is where those priorities come up and change. My oldest child was diagnosed with severe scoliosis a few years ago. A total S curve, and they deemed it surgical immediately. They would need surgery, and just in that room, they were just, I think they were 13 at the time, anyway, and just asked the surgeon questions, like, oh, what would happen if we wait? Do we need to do this now? The doctors started with when is your ballet break? When are we going to schedule the surgery? And then answered well, you should probably do this before you’re 22 or 23. They were like, okay, so let’s wait. What are the other options? I’m using a little more confrontational tone than they did. But they said those things on their own. And then in the car later was said, they put their hands on my back without even asking. And I had to step back from not taking that as like, Oh, I really messed up. That’s my job. But I come from an era where doctors did all kinds of things without asking. A lot of things, especially for a child, but that they would expect having very little experience with that for a doctor to say, Hey, can I touch your back? They’ve received no education about that. That’s just what they mean, well, they have by living in a world of the person who’s respected, autonomous. So, that’s how they walked through that whole journey and ended up doing really intense physical therapy and loved their physical therapist. And it turned into this whole fascination with the body and how the body works and alignment and, learning that they were hyper mobile and reading books about this. And so they have a whole fascination with physical therapy and physiology now. But ended up being deemed by that same doctor a year later, that their curve was corrected by like 14 degrees. And the doctor said, I would not recommend surgery anymore. They have no pain, a total success story for them. But again, there were all kinds of practical and sort of more emotional parts of how that is supported, right? One is being willing to go out on a limb and run a ledge and be the outsider who’s not going to do the surgery, being willing to do that, right? You have to, again, step outside of this sort of echo chamber, everybody’s going, this is what you do, this is what you do, it’s going to be your fault if you don’t do this. And just taking in all of the information, looking at the person in front of you asking all of the questions, getting all the information and going, Yes, let’s try this. And then being 100% willing to drive them to physical therapy four times a week, for a year, and them being willing to do it. And I’m having the time to do that in the middle of the day. And so many times I was more in it, in a practical sense. I think during that year, we didn't have time for a lot of other things. And they were getting older, we were doing just little, and that faltering that you have along the way. Is it enough? And Micah was like, look how much they’ve learned about themselves, their body, their relationship with their body, their relationship with all kinds of things this year, I realized, yes, wow. And seeing now a couple years later, what a big role that had in their life. For some people, that story is different and also meaningful for them. They have a surgery, they have this long recovery, they have limited mobility, there’s an identity in that. And for my kiddo, they got this experience that fit their personality, which was to be in their body, get really in tune with, I mean, as a dancer, that’s how they relate to themselves. So it just expanded this vision for them of what is happening for them in their body, in their role, what it means, and the kind of relationship they can have with their body. I think that really started to solidify for them, a core piece of the way they walk through the world, which I think could feel like an insignificant little side trail for some people. That was the year I had scoliosis and got the surgery or whatever, which is, again, the right path for some. It is not the right path for every 13 year old to do physical therapy every day on their own and in an office for two hours. But that’s what they wanted to do. And there was a lot of support and scaffolding needed. And then a lot of trust to know when they got to a place where they didn’t need to do as much, and I was still in the like, well, have you done this today? Have you done that? And they were like, no, I can feel it. I can feel my alignment, I can feel I’m doing okay. And I realized that they had integrated this into their whole, that’s the way they are, is that they’re constantly sort of being in that spiraling place of alignment in their body. And I got to see it on an x-ray, which we don’t get to see when we’re talking about emotional things, right? There was this kind of parallel for me to get that level of trust with things that are not as evident or not physical around ways they’re thinking about things they want to explore, and to trust that all of that is just as valid, if not more than filling out the transcript, we would have filled out for a ninth grade year. Which is also challenging to come up against. ANNA: It’s so interesting to think about that journey and how when we look at the threads, that piece of who they are with dance, that was there before. And so I think that’s the piece you trusted for them to be in dance six days a week for years, because it was that important to them. And now you see that they’re taking that experience into all these other pieces and all these other realms. And then their ability to be able to say, to know that I can ask my questions, I deserve for somebody to talk to me and answer my questions. That’s just really powerful at 13 years old, and I know they’re both like that in different realms. That they have that experience. And I think that is one of the big things that we touch on. That’s a big difference that I see is, I feel like we were talking about it in the network not too long ago of just this kind of adults as authority or the enemy that we kind of structure it that way in our culture. And I think it’s so different when we can have that collaborative relationship between adults and children. I think everybody’s better off. I feel like that surgeon learned a lot through that experience. And they still may value surgery, because that’s what they do. And they love it. But they learned something. I think having that collaboration just helps everybody involved, no matter what path is chosen. PAM: I just wanted to bring it back, Lucia, I loved your point about how you could see the results on the x-ray. But it’s just beautiful to recognize that you had that moment, and you could see the intentionality that they were bringing to this whole process, and the choices that they were making, and how that was fitting with who they are as a person through their other choices and activities. But to understand, like you said, for other journeys, and emotional ones, just the different kinds of choices that a person, child or adult, makes in their life, that they are perfectly capable of bringing that same level of intentionality to it. So that even if we don’t quite understand why they’re making those choices, we’re going to trust it the same as the one that we could more visually comprehend because of its particular circumstances. But to recognize that they are just so friggin capable of that, of being in the world and of choosing how intentional or how deep they want to go with a particular interest, or choice or, I’ve had enough of that. I don’t want to go any deeper, I don’t want to push any harder. I want to quit. That whole piece that is still with intention, that is a choice that they are making. That is totally there, like you were saying, that authenticity, whatever word one wants to use. I just think that was such a great point. And to recognize the intentionality that they so often bring to things that we can’t see, often we can’t see the impact, again, looking back is easier as well. But yeah, I love that piece. ERIKA: It’s such a beautiful example of that. And I feel like our kids who have grown up with this kind of autonomy and being more in touch with who they are as a different person than we are, I feel like that helps me remember, there’s not one right way. That’s literally what your child told the doctor’s, there’s not one right way, just telling the surgeon, there are going to be other ways to do this, and we’ll figure it out. And I think it’s such a great reminder when my kids do that, because I think I was so schooled. So, you just get to a point where it feels like, oh, when this happens, you do this. And if this and this, this is the right way to do that. And that’s the right way to do this. There’s just a lot of peeling back all those layers of expectations, or just feeling like, what are people gonna think? All of these different judgmental parts that we have. I remembered recently, I asked my youngest, are you interested in traveling? Because in the past, that’s been something that we’ve talked about a lot and really enjoyed as a family. And it seemed like they really liked it too. And the answer was, not right now. And I was like, that is such a great answer that I would not have been able to give at that age. Because it just kind of leaves space to change. I’m not gonna say I’m not a traveler. But right now, I know I’m not in the season where I would enjoy that. And, I’m just like, wow, it just feels like such a more mature response. Your child at the surgeon is a much more mature response than I would have been able to have at that time. I would have been taken over by the authority feeling. So anyway, I think the kids are amazing. ANNA: Yes. Two other things that came to mind about this whole piece, I’m going to try not to lose them. So one is, this is back to the x-ray and being able to see it, but not always being able to see it, whatever the journey for them is. And I think it’s just important to say out loud that we may never see it, we may never see the actual x-ray, right? Sometimes we can look back and we can see the threads. And we can see how that really led into this developmental piece. But sometimes we’ll never see it because we’re different human beings, we’re never going to be inside of them. And I think that can, again, feel scary, or it can feel kind of exciting, to know there is this person on their own journey, and I trust their journey. But that can be tricky. So that stuck out for me. And then the other piece you said about how people recognize, oh, they’re so self aware and easy to talk to. And then where are they going to school? Or what is their next step? It just reminded me, so you know, I work with a lot of adults and couples and I just wish people could understand that piece that you’re talking about. That’s the reason why they’re coming to seek help in their 40s and 50s. And 30s is because they don’t have it. It’s not because they didn’t go to school, or they didn’t have the career, they did all those things that they were supposed to do. But they can’t figure out, who’s who am I? What is my voice? What matters to me? And so for me, these kids that we see, because I mean, we’ve been at this for almost 30 years now, Pam, these kids that we see growing up in this lifestyle and moving on, that is the piece that they have, even through the bumps, and even through the maybe not figuring it out, or tough times, because it’s hard to become an adult and figure out all the things. It’s not that it’s without bumps. But they do have that core sense of who they are, they do have this sense of, yeah, I can ask people for things, I deserve to have that collaboration. It is just such a different feel. Go ahead, Pam. PAM: Yeah, so what bubble, they know who they are. And tying back to what Erika said, they know they can change. Yes, that they aren’t static. I know who I am. And this is static. And now everything that happens around me, I must measure against that vision of myself, and respond that way. No, that they have a sense of who they are, and a sense of how they can change, that that change isn’t bad, or wrong, or that who I was two years ago is now wrong, because I see things differently. LUCIA: Without that, I feel like I was so oriented, like Erika, I was very well schooled in how I was being observed, how I was being interpreted, how I was being identified, and then identified with those identifications. I’m this, I’m that. And so really feeling this pressure to be that and always falling short of that. And then seeing kids who just have no relationship to that. It’s like it doesn’t exist. It’s so weird. And I can feel it. I felt it. It’s so easy to see with the ballet piece, because you’re going to talk about something where you’re just looking at a mirror all day, right? How do you escape that? And it’s not that they’re not aware of the toxicity around ballet and dance. And that’s why they don’t want to do it professionally. But they are an unbelievably gifted dancer, their musicality and technique, combined with the amount of hard work that they want to put into it is astounding. It’s hard to not go, but you could be that, everybody thinks you’re that. If it were me, that’s all I ever wanted was to actually be that good, right? And to realize, oh, wow, that’s what they don’t have, which is why they love it. Why half the days they wake up and they’re like, I love my life. Instead of just what I remember is just the pain of being inadequate. And everybody’s going to experience that no matter what kind of life you grow up in. But that’s not inadequacy is not the central driving force to overcome. It’s amazing to watch. It’s amazing to be around people who are not oriented to an external reflection of who they are, I guess. That’s what I would like to speed up for myself. ERIKA: Well, this has been so much fun. And thank you so much, Lucia, for joining us. We hope everyone enjoyed the conversation and maybe had an aha moment or picked up some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey. And if you enjoy conversations like these, I really do think you would love the Living Joyfully Network. It’s such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the different things we encounter in our unschooling lives. So we invite you to check it out and see if it fits with our free month offer. You can find the link in the show notes or you could just go to livingjoyfully.ca and the link is right on the homepage. So thanks for joining us and we’ll see you next time!

No one likes to think about dying—except, it seems, the New Hampshire Legislature. This year, Granite State lawmakers have introduced a trio of bills that rethink what happens to us after we shuffle off this mortal coil. From green burials to helping out our four-legged law enforcement officers, here is a look at how state law regarding dead bodies could change this year. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

Sometimes New Hampshire's Queen City gets criticized for the number of unhoused people within its borders. But according to state Senator Victoria Sullivan (R-Manchester), not all of those people are true Manchester residents. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement sent $122,515 to the town of Carroll this month. The payment follows Carroll's decision to be part of the Department of Homeland Security's Task Force Model, also known as the 287(g) program. The New Hampshire Legislature is about halfway through its current session. What are the top issues and bills arising in the State House now? We talk about these stories and more on this edition of the New Hampshire News Recap with Wired's Sammy Sussman and Anna Brown, executive director of Citizens Count and the Rudman Center at the UNH Franklin Pierce School of Law.

Waitlists for many mental health service providers in New Hampshire stretch for months, leaving some to propose a controversial alternative: artificial intelligence. Now, a bill in Concord is asking a critical question: what should be the role of AI in mental health—if any? Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

Following the COVID-19 shutdown, the New Hampshire House and Senate opened a new portal for individuals to register their opinions about bills online. As a nonprofit dedicated to making citizen engagement easier, Citizens Count set out to determine how these online submissions might impact committee votes. The data suggest that online testimony may be influential on lesser-known or less partisan bills, but on most bills it seems to have no impact—or possibly even a negative impact. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

New Hampshire is the second most forested state in the country, yet our local timber industry struggles to compete against Canadian lumber because of how wood is classified. This year, legislators are considering three bills—HB 1204, SB 503, and SB 529 —aimed at redefining how New Hampshire wood is graded and sold. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

There are several bills in the New Hampshire House and Senate looking to add restrictions on data centers in New Hampshire. These server warehouses are essential for the expanded use of artificial intelligence (AI), but they come with high energy demand as well as potential environmental impact. At the same time, some policymakers are hesitant to single out specific industries in state law. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.  

Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.'s “Make America Healthy Again” agenda may be polarizing when it comes to policies around vaccines and autism, but there is bipartisan interest in his goal to ban artificial food dyes. This year New Hampshire legislators are bringing that mission to the state level. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

Consciousness teacher Anna Brown  @AnnaBrown explains how human consciousness is evolving, why heart-centered awareness is essential for embodiment, and how meditation reconnects us with higher states of awareness in episode 231 of the Far Out with Faust podcast..Anna Brown is a consciousness teacher and meditation guide whose work focuses on embodiment, heart-centered awareness, and living from higher states of consciousness. Through her teachings, she emphasizes practical meditation, observing the observer, and reconnecting with the heart chakra as the foundation for intuition, emotional regulation, and spiritual awakening. Her work encourages individuals to take inner responsibility, dissolve unconscious conditioning, and embody love and awareness in everyday life.In this conversation, Faust and Anna explore why modern life pulls awareness into constant mental noise and how observing thoughts without reaction becomes essential for conscious living. They discuss the difference between intuition and anxiety, why burnout signals misaligned energy, and how meditation grounds awareness back into the heart. Anna shares insight into embodiment, detachment from the mind, and maintaining a high vibrational state through love, gratitude, and inner stillness — offering practical tools for navigating change with clarity.In this episode:

After phenomenal success in reducing HIV transmissions, the former AIDS Council of NSW - ACON - pivoted to become a hugely influential lobby group with a new focus: trans rights. Today - the deep concerns of lesbian and LGBT groups about how ACON wields its power. The Australian’s New South Wales Editor Stephen Rice explains the story. Read more about this story, plus see photos, videos and additional reporting, on the website or on The Australian’s app. This episode of The Front is presented by Kristen Amiet, produced by Stephanie Coombes and edited by Lia Tsamoglou. Our regular host is Claire Harvey and our team includes Tiffany Dimmack, Joshua Burton, and Jasper Leak, who also composed our music. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Fresh off his ASTRO 2025 Plenary Session talk on functional radiosurgery, and embracing our role as radiation medicine doctors, Dr. Evan Thomas joins one of our hosts, Dr. Bhargava Chitti for the inaugural episode of the ACRO Podcast: New Practitioner Conversations. Here they discuss the evolution of functional radiosurgery and the opportunity it gives us to help patients with tremendously debilitating psychiatric and neurological conditions. Highlights of this episode include the history of the field, a crash course in building an essential tremor program, our emerging role in epilepsy management, and how you can connect with other radiation medicine doctors defining our role in this critical discipline!The ACRO Podcast: New Practitioner Conversations is brought to you by ACRO's New Practitioner Committee and is hosted by Drs. Anna Brown and Bhargava Chitti.

It seems like American citizens have never been more divided over politics. Today we talk to Anna Brown of Citizens Count about the state of democracy in NH, and how Citizens Count is working to provide unbiased information about the issues impacting NH and the candidates running for office. To learn more about Citizens Count, click here.  

As we close out another legislative session in New Hampshire, we're watching to see which of the remaining bills passed by the Legislature will be signed by Gov. Ayotte. If Gov. Ayotte signs these bills, they will become some of the newest laws in the Granite State, but their path from where they are now to the Governor's desk isn't as clear as you might think. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

New Hampshire is famous for our “Citizen Legislature,” where representatives are paid just $100 per year plus mileage for their service. Ideally this deters candidates from running for personal gain. However, state races are gaining more attention from interest groups, and some watchdogs are sounding the alarm over the influence of money in campaigns. Here at Citizens Count, we are dedicated to providing unbiased information about New Hampshire issues and candidates, so we've combed through state campaign finance reports to answer the question: can you “buy” a state representative race in New Hampshire? Our analysis shows that while there is a possibility of outside influence, most state representative races in 2024 didn't flip based on spending. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

As another legislative session comes to a close, we've seen many bills passed by the New Hampshire Legislature and many more left by the wayside. Some of this year's bills were “retained in committee,” which suggests the bills could be back next year. In this article, we'll talk about what it means to be retained in committee and look at some bills from this session that could make a comeback.  Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

President Trump began his second term in office by signing executive orders on stage at his inauguration rally inside the Capital One Arena in Washington. Trump has gotten plenty of use out of his executive pen in the months since, and executive orders have come to define his governing style. But he is hardly the first president to rely heavily on executive fiat. This article looks at how executive orders function within the constitutional framework and how presidents and New Hampshire governors throughout history have used them. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

New Hampshire is known for its high volume of alcohol sales, thanks in part to the low-tax liquor stores along our state borders. Being labeled as the number one state for booze may not be a point of pride for Granite Staters, but it's an important part of our state's economy: taxes on liquor and beer provide 5% of unrestricted revenue in the state budget. This year lawmakers are working on several bills that aim to boost alcohol sales – and hopefully boost our bottom line. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

Watch the full episode with Anna Brown here: https://youtu.be/fOM-_PNhz3YSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/inspiredevolution. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Watch the full episode with Anna Brown here: https://youtu.be/fOM-_PNhz3YSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/inspiredevolution. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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In 2026, the United States will celebrate the 250th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. This year, cities, states, and the federal government are hard at work planning how they will celebrate. Granite Staters deserve to be proud of their revolutionary history; New Hampshire was the first of the 13 colonies to declare independence from England, six months before the signing of the Declaration of Independence. One proposal before the New Hampshire Legislature would give drivers the chance to participate in next year's festivities by purchasing a special, commemorative license plate for America's 250th.  Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

Citizens Count Executive Director Anna Brown chats with NH Business Review editors Mike Cote and Amanda Andrews on civics education and legislation currently moving through the state house. This episode of NH Business Review's Down to Business podcast is sponsored by Northeast Delta Dental. What the power of more can do to provide the right dental coverage for your business and your employees. Discover more at ⁠⁠nedelta.com⁠⁠.

Whether it's a November election or a March town meeting, Granite Staters are used to roadside political signs popping up like an invasive species. State law allows signs along public rights-of-way with the landowner's permission—but it's not always obvious who owns the land, which leads to some heated debates. This year the New Hampshire House and Senate are considering legislation to clear up who decides where roadway signs are placed. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

Many of the innovations that have come to define the technological age we live in—from artificial intelligence to cryptocurrency mining—all have one thing in common: they demand large amounts of electricity. Tech companies and utilities are currently grappling with ways to meet this need. You've likely read headlines about proposals to power data centers using “small modular rectors” (SMRs) and even a push to restart Three Mile Island nuclear power plant. HB 672, a bill in the New Hampshire Legislature, is aimed at encouraging similar developments in New Hampshire by allowing off-grid electricity providers. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

In 2018 New Hampshire voters approved a constitutional Right of Privacy, but that didn't give the Legislature, executive branch, or the courts much detail on how to handle citizens' data. Since then, the New Hampshire Legislature has debated dozens of bills to restrict how businesses and the government store, use, disclose, and delete our personal information. This year the Legislature is looking to limit how some retailers handle driver's licenses. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

Anna Brown shares her experiences in the industry, navigating cultural challenges in China, and the importance of mentorship, work-life balance, and training programs for young professionals.

On February 13, Gov. Kelly Ayotte provided her budget proposal to the state Legislature. She promised to prioritize funding for special education and law enforcement, but also promised roughly $150 million in budget cuts. Meanwhile, President Trump is overhauling federal funding, which makes up roughly one-third of New Hampshire's budget. Now it's up to the state Legislature to sort through competing priorities and uncertain revenue, and draft a final budget for the Granite State. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

There are many reasons a victim of a crime like sexual assault or domestic abuse might be afraid to come forward. Among them is the fear that, if they do not have strong enough evidence to back up their story, their assailant might sue them for defamation. A bill before the New Hampshire Legislature this year seeks to address this by prohibiting such defamation lawsuits against accusers. The bill coincides with a national effort to get similar legislation passed in other states, but some worry the proposed law goes too far. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

The blue flag emblazoned with the New Hampshire state seal that currently flutters proudly above the State House could be in for a makeover—that is, if state legislators pass HB 210 or HB 176 this year. These bills look to redesign the official New Hampshire state flag. HB 210 would create a commission to study whether there should be a new flag, while HB 176 proposes a specific, new design featuring the Old Man of the Mountain.   Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.

Since the dawn of the smartphone era, everybody has carried a camera with them at all times. If anything, there are too many photos and videos being recorded at concerts. We all know the annoyance of being distracted from the music by outstretched arms holding up glowing screens in front of the stage. During the early years of the Bay Area punk scene, however, there was usually only one person with a camera documenting the action – Murray Bowles. Back when this aggressively self-marginalized genre was relegated to sweaty basements, decrepit warehouses, and outdoor wastelands, Murray could consistently be found in the mosh pit, snapping photos of the glorious chaos erupting around him. As the scene's popularity grew, buoyed by local institutions like all-ages club 924 Gilman and Maximumnrocknroll magazine, Murray's images became the defining visual documentation of a punk rock renaissance. He was even immortalized (in cartoon form) on the cover of Green Day's “Dookie,” the biggest selling punk album of all time. “Hail Murray: The Bay Area Punk Photography of Murray Bowles, 1982-1995” (Last Gasp) is the first book to compile his explosive photographic catalogue and pay tribute to the man behind the lens. This episode features an interview with Anna Brown, a lifelong friend of Murray who compiled this posthumous retrospective. https://lastgasp.com/products/hail-murray Don't forget to follow the East Bay Yesterday Substack for updates on events, boat tours, exhibits, and other local history news. https://substack.com/@eastbayyesterday Donate to keep this show alive: https://www.patreon.com/eastbayyesterday

On this episode of the Xian Archive Podcast, Matt is joined by Anna Brown, who is a spiritual seeker and finder, a nondual teacher, and host to the popular YouTube channel ‪@AnnaBrown‬. Through her videos Anna teaches what she refers to as The Light of Consciousness, which is our true form, beyond Maya or Illusion. She carries a potency that lands home for those who are open to higher dimensional consciousness and experience. In this conversation Matt and Anna deeply dive into the topic of nondual awareness, and how Anna discovered it through her spiritual awakening. They also discuss meditation, the matrix, simulation theory, vibration, love, and much more.   Find the episode now on all major podcast platforms.   As always, thanks for listening and I hope you take something away from this conversation.     Find Anna: https://www.wonderfullynothing.com/   https://www.instagram.com/animatedanna/   https://www.youtube.com/@AnnaBrown       Find Matt: https://www.instagram.com/xianarchive   https://www.MattXian.com   https://www.youtube.com/@xianarchive    

ACRO's SOAP (Spotlight on Advocacy and Policy) Podcast provides public policy awareness to the radiation oncology community. During this episode, our hosts Drs. Tarita Thomas and Anna Brown of the ACRO Government Relations & Economics Committee (GREC) discuss the development of the Medicare Physician Fee Schedule with Dr. Paul Wallner, fellow GREC member, Teri Bedard, Revenue Cycle Coding Strategies, and Jason McKitrick, Liberty Partners Group.

Greetings from Radioland! During our holiday break we're beaming out a sweet treat for your ears... all our commercials back to back to sweet sweet back. Enjoy the second of three supercuts! Today's Episode: Season 1, Episodes 7 - 12 If you would like to support The Occult Adventures of Norman P. Blank go to our Patreon at   ⁠www.patreon.com/normanpblank⁠. A $5 pledge gets you access to exclusive content like behind-the-scenes episodes, secret lore from the Normanomicon, and much more! Cast:  Kevin Victor Rae⁠ @kv_rae⁠ Jordan Stidham⁠ @jordanstidz⁠ Courtney Reece⁠ @court.e.reece⁠ Art Brown ⁠@artbrown_vo⁠ Dezaré Foster⁠ @dezarefoster⁠ Dylan Bellardinelli⁠ @dylan_r_bel⁠ Will Mercer⁠ @mercerwill⁠ Brandon Brooks⁠ @amusedbrandon⁠ Cameron Rose⁠ @h3rmtheworm⁠ Anna Brown⁠ @ajbluecloud⁠ Elizabeth Birmingham⁠ @ebethbham⁠ Devin Cunningham ⁠@devinnadriann⁠

Has anyone ever said to you, “Oh, you believe Jesus is just a mere man.” How do you respond when someone says that? Do you just go along with it and say, “Yep, that’s what I believe–Jesus is just another guy”? I hope not. Jesus is not just another guy. He’s the virginally-conceived son of God who lived righteously without sin, healed dozens (maybe hundreds) of people, preached tirelessly about the kingdom, taught the Bible and how to live, performed many miracles and exorcisms, voluntarily died for our sins as a perfect sacrifice. Then God raised him from the dead and he ascended to God’s right hand from which place he is the head of the church and from which place he will come again on the last day to establish God’s reign upon the earth. This doesn’t sound like just another guy to me. Even so, Jesus’s unprecedented and magnificent accomplishments don’t make him God either. He is a genuine, authentic, 100% human being. He shows us what God can do with a human being who wholly submits to God in everything. In today’s episode Anna Brown will draw upon the Bible and the ancient Near Eastern background to show that humans can bear God’s image, representing him on earth. Although some allege that Jesus had to be God to succeed, Brown shows in her presentation that it was actually Christ’s humanity that equipped him to stand in for God as his quintessential image. Anna Brown grew up in Oregon and graduated from Hillsdale College with a Bachelor's in Economics. Fluent in Spanish and learning Hebrew, she has traveled in Europe, Australia, and Israel, and lived in Spain. She currently resides in Louisville, Kentucky, with her husband and two children, where she does marketing and publishing for Living Hope International Ministries. Listen to this episode on Spotify or Apple Podcasts —— Links —— Get the transcript of this episode Support Restitutio by donating here Join our Restitutio Facebook Group and follow Sean Finnegan on Twitter @RestitutioSF Leave a voice message via SpeakPipe with questions or comments and we may play them out on the air Intro music: Good Vibes by MBB Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-SA 3.0) Free Download / Stream: Music promoted by Audio Library. Who is Sean Finnegan?  Read his bio here Get Finnegan’s book, Kingdom Journey to learn about God’s kingdom coming on earth as well as the story of how Christianity lost this precious pearl of great price.

I talked about why I got baptized and my testimony and some other thoughts on baptism. I mention Dr. Victor Wierwille, EW Bullinger, Loni Frisbee, Ulrich Zwingli, Joni Mitchell, Chuck LaMattina, Tim Keller, John Piper, Shane Claiborne, Kallistos Ware, Soren Kierkegaard, Francis Collins, Augustine of Hippo, Athanasius, Tim Mackie, Jordan Peterson, Paul Vanderklay (  @PaulVanderKlay  ), Jonathan Pageau, Kanye West, Dr. Beau Branson, Bob Carden, Brett Salkheld, James McGrath, Basil the Great, Sean Finnegan (  @restitutio8765  ), Will Barlow, Anna Brown, Michael Servetus, Victor Gluckin, Reverend Gary Davis, Bob Dylan, Jorma Kaukonen, and Bob Weir. My randos convo with PVK - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuoqGzIu5Wc&t=3633s My last channel update - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJvcrgL79BY Rev. Gary Davis "Oh Glory How Happy I am" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=972Dx71AtFA

Anna Brown is a Functional Registered Dietitian and Integrative Nutritionist who specializes in women's gut and hormone health. Anna's philosophy centers around the ancient connection between humans and the natural world, plus modern insights from science. With her ReWilding methodology and root-cause approach, Anna guides her clients on their journey to restore optimal health. Armed with the necessary tools, test results, resources, and support, Anna's clients quickly and easily find symptoms relief and their path back to vitality. Rewilding and the surprising power of reconnecting with nature to heal your gut  The relationship between the gut and female hormones The role of the circadian rhythm for gut and overall health, how to find your circadian rhythm and tips for keeping it in sync What functional medicine means and the difference between typical western medicine when it comes to nutrition How she works with clients to get to the root cause, and why most clients come to her for help  Finding a practitioner who is your advocate and will always ask “why”  Her tips for Nervous system regulation, simple gut friendly meals and Her 5 step process for getting to the root cause      Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/annabrownhealth/ Website: https://annabrownhealth.com/ Hinoki Cypress Oil  Sleep chronotype test Follow Me on Instagram

Election season is here, and it's hard to turn on the TV or pull up a news site without being bombarded by messaging from candidates and interest groups. Still, if you have a cause you care deeply about, now is a great time to advance that cause by getting involved in the electoral process. In this article, we'll explore some concrete steps you can take to do just that. Listen as hosts Anna Brown and Mike Dunbar, of Citizens Count break it down in  $100 Plus Mileage. This podcast is produced in partnership with Citizens Count, Granite State News Collaborative and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications at Franklin Pierce University.