Podcasts about Jethro

In this episode, Jethro sits down with Dr. Erin Bailey, VP of Literacy Programs and Research at Reading Is Fundamental, to explore two exciting 2026 developments. Erin shares the growth of Skybrary, RIF's e-book app offering 1,000 read-to-me picture books, now with a free tier providing 100 books per household — a number rooted in research linking book access to reading and academic achievement. She also discusses RIF's acquisition of August House Publishing, bringing 185 titles focused on oral storytelling into RIF's mission of book access. The conversation turns to Erin's own podcast, Reading Inspires, covering the realities of podcast production, building thought leadership, and RIF's core belief that reading should above all be joyful. We're proud to be sponsored by IXL. IXL's comprehensive teaching and learning platform for math, language arts, science, and social studies is accelerating achievement in 95 of the top 100 U.S. school districts. Loved by teachers and backed by independent research from Johns Hopkins University, IXL can help you do the following and more:Simplify and streamline technologySave teachers' timeReliably meet Tier 1 standardsImprove student performance on state assessments

Pastor Skip challenges the idea that serving God should leave you stressed and burned out. Discover why those serving the Lord should be the happiest people on earth, and how you can cultivate that joy in your own heart.

Today on Connect with Skip Heitzig, Pastor Skip challenges the idea that serving God should leave you stressed and burned out. Discover why those serving the Lord should be the happiest people on earth, and how you can cultivate that joy in your own heart. To support this ministry financially, visit: https://www.oneplace.com/donate/104/29?v=20251111

Pastor Skip introduces one of the Bible's greatest leaders by asking an unexpected question: What's your relationship like with your in-laws?

Today on Connect with Skip Heitzig, Pastor Skip introduces one of the Bible's greatest leaders by asking an unexpected question: What's your relationship like with your in-laws? To support this ministry financially, visit: https://www.oneplace.com/donate/104/29?v=20251111

The Israelites left Egypt physically free, but Egypt still had to be driven out of them spiritually — because the slavery of production imprisons the soul, not just the schedule. In this series finale, Pastor Chris Nichols traces three moments in Moses' leadership — daily manna, Jethro's confrontation about an unsustainable pace, and the command to remember the Sabbath — to show that rest is an act of trust, an act of surrender, and an act of resistance, not a retreat from leadership. Chris introduces this week's Soul Practice, Sabbath, with a practical four-part rhythm for building rest into a leader's life. Scripture: Exodus 16; 18; 20:8-11. Week 4 (finale) of Soul-Strengthened Leadership.

A glowing faceless figure stalks the lonely roads of western Pennsylvania—or so the legend goes. But behind the terrifying tale of Charlie No-Face was Ray Robinson, a real man whose tragic childhood accident transformed him into the infamous Green Man of Pennsylvania. Then, Kat and Jethro explore the bizarre, darkly funny, and sometimes completely unhinged final words of executed criminals—including baked-apple jokes, complaints about SpaghettiOs, one killer's suggested newspaper headline, and Aileen Wuornos' promise to return with Jesus aboard a giant mothership. Urban legends, death-row one-liners, and a Rolex rescued from the sewer after 18 months. Just another perfectly normal episode of The Box of Oddities. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“When God's covenant people steal His glory, He chastens them for repentance and preparation for future use.” Moses flees Pharaoh's death sentence and lands in Midian. There God enrolls him in Wilderness School—forty years of humbling that will prepare him for future usefulness. Two classes mark the curriculum: • Protection – Moses again sees injustice (shepherds driving away Jethro's daughters) and acts, but this time without sin. He defends the weak and then serves them by watering the flock. • Direction – He willingly dwells with Reuel/Jethro, accepts a humble shepherd's life, and receives Zipporah as wife. The trajectory is downward in humility rather than upward in self-exaltation. God disciplines those He loves (Hebrews 12). He does not abandon His children when they steal His glory; He chastens them so they learn they are nobodies whom He can use for His purposes. Preached March 9, 2025 Rhome Bible Church https://www.rhomebible.org #Exodus #Moses #BibleSermon #ChristianPodcast #BiblicalPreaching #GodsDiscipline #RhomeBibleChurch #OldTestament #Humility #Sanctification #Gospel #ChristianMinistry #ScriptureTeaching #Expositional #Reformed

In this chapter, we see Moses pause, remember, and declare the ways God has been faithful as he recounts to Jethro God's deliverance. In response, Jethro rejoices. Our declaration of God's faithfulness allows others to see and savor His goodness. Jethro sees all that Moses is doing and encourages him to allow others to shoulder his burdens, as God intended. As we pray for one another and carry each other's burdens to the feet of Jesus, God strengthens His people to faithfully walk together through the wilderness.

In this episode of the Lead Ministry Podcast, Josh Denhart sits down with Lauren Ralston to explore how ministry leaders can disciple volunteers the way Jesus discipled His followers. They discuss the difference between teaching information and giving people access to your life, how to identify a core leadership team, and why multiplication is not complete until the people you develop are developing others.If your ministry structure still depends on you personally reaching every volunteer, teacher, child, or family, this episode will help you build a healthier model that multiplies care without losing personal connection.KEY TOPICS COVEREDWhat Makes a Disciple Maker – Moving beyond personal growth to helping others reproduceLife-on-Life Discipleship – Why people need access to your real life, not only your lessonsThe 12, the 3, and the 1 – Identifying the people who need your deepest investmentA Multiplying Structure – Training coordinators to disciple teachers who disciple familiesKEY QUOTE“You are not a disciple maker until the people you are discipling are making disciples.”SCRIPTURE REFERENCES2 Timothy 2:2 – Entrust what you have learned to faithful people who will teach othersExodus 18:17-23 – Jethro challenges Moses to develop leaders who can share the loadMatthew 4:19 and Matthew 10:1 – Jesus first models ministry and then sends His disciples to do itTAKEAWAYDo not wait for growth to force multiplication. Identify one faithful person, invite them closer, let them see how you live and lead, and begin preparing them to pass the same investment to someone else.CALL TO ACTIONWe hope this episode encourages and equips you. Share it with a friend and stay tuned for more resources each week.STAY CONNECTED FOR MORE RESOURCESVisit our website: http://leadministry.comFollow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LeadVolunteersFind us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leadvolunteers

Jon Childes Citylights Church is a non-denominational church located in Greenville, SC, that exists to be followers of Jesus devoted to Building Family, Blessing Neighbors, and Bringing Good News to the Nations.

We can become so used to our own habits and patterns that we stop noticing what may need to change. In this message from Exodus 18, Pastor Chad uses the relationship between Moses and Jethro to show why we all need people who can encourage us, ask honest questions and help us grow. Who has permission to speak into your life, and who might need the wisdom and support you can offer? Watch or listen to discover how God often answers our prayers through the people He places around us.

The post Grow – Jethro’s Advice – Exodus 18: 13-27 appeared first on Red Village Church.

Calvary Bible Chapel

The Gifts of Leadership and Administration- Handout August 3rd, 2026 Certificate Level Requirements: ● Watch/re-watch the teaching video “The Gifts of Leadership & Administration ● Type one page on what you learned from this teaching using scriptures. ● Please type your name at the top of your homework, as well as on the file. ● Email document to equippedforyourcalling@gmail.com Zechariah 4:6 “Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the Lord Almighty.” Romans 12:6-8 “Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.” The Gift of Leadership -The Visionary - Nehemiah 6:3 1.What is forged in the valley, can then be executed in others. 2. Prayer & Preparation. - Nehemiah 2:4 3. Everyone Must DoTheir Part. 4. Unwavering Resilience Against Opposition. -Nehemiah 4:17 5. Godly leadership exercises authority which is rooted in character, not titles. The Gift of Administration - The ability to understand the vision, see the big picture; organize and mobilize others to help. "And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administration, & varieties of tongues." — 1 Corinthians 12:28 1. Administration means to steer as in a ship. 2. Biblical examples of the administrative gift. ● Jethro and Moses (Exodus 18:13–26) ● Joseph in Egypt (Genesis 41:33–40)

The Gifts of Leadership and Administration- Handout August 3rd, 2026 Certificate Level Requirements: ● Watch/re-watch the teaching video “The Gifts of Leadership & Administration ● Type one page on what you learned from this teaching using scriptures. ● Please type your name at the top of your homework, as well as on the file. ● Email document to equippedforyourcalling@gmail.com Zechariah 4:6 “Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the Lord Almighty.” Romans 12:6-8 “Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.” The Gift of Leadership -The Visionary - Nehemiah 6:3 1.What is forged in the valley, can then be executed in others. 2. Prayer & Preparation. - Nehemiah 2:4 3. Everyone Must DoTheir Part. 4. Unwavering Resilience Against Opposition. -Nehemiah 4:17 5. Godly leadership exercises authority which is rooted in character, not titles. The Gift of Administration - The ability to understand the vision, see the big picture; organize and mobilize others to help. "And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administration, & varieties of tongues." — 1 Corinthians 12:28 1. Administration means to steer as in a ship. 2. Biblical examples of the administrative gift. ● Jethro and Moses (Exodus 18:13–26) ● Joseph in Egypt (Genesis 41:33–40)

The David Alliance TDAgiantslayer@gmail.com Garth Heckman The story of Moses is one of the most honest depictions of human insecurity in ancient literature. Despite leading a nation out of slavery and receiving the Ten Commandments, Moses spent much of his life convinced he was the wrong person for the job.   His story offers powerful insights into how inadequacy works, how purpose unfolds, and what it actually means to lead.   Key Lessons from Moses' Insecurity   Inadequacy Is Often a Skill Issue Overestimated, and a Calling Underestimated   When you overestimate the skill needed in comparison to the calling underestimated you will never feel adequate.    When God called Moses at the burning bush in Exodus 3, Moses immediately pushed back with five distinct excuses:   "Who am I?" (Identity/Worthiness) Im seen as an enemy to many as I grew up under Pharaoh and in his house. I am seen as a murderer I am seen as a person who ran away   Past Failures do not disqualify you from your future mission.   "What shall I say?" (Lack of Knowledge)     "What if they don't believe me?" (Fear of Rejection)     "I am slow of speech and tongue." (Perceived Physical Limitations)     "Please send someone else." (Pure Resistance)     Thoughts:  Moses focused entirely on his own inventory of skills, while God was focused on His own capacity.      The lesson is that calling rarely demands pre-existing perfection; it demands willingness.     **You might say “why not me God” - He most times will answer… you said No.   Your perceived disqualifications are often just the baseline from which growth happens.       The Lesson: Growth doesn't eliminate feelings of overwhelm— Feeling inadequate at a new level of responsibility isn't a sign that you failed; it's a sign that you're operating outside your comfort zone, which is where real impact occurs.   3. Isolation Amplifies Insecurity; Community Relieves It When Moses felt isolated he was given Aaron When overwhelmed he was given Jethro      5. You Can Finish Well Without Seeing the Final Result MOSES SAW THE PROMISE LAND - BUT WAS NOT ALLOWED TO ENTER IT.    You might just be the great set up for someone else's future mission.      Do you want to feel adequate - or more than enough? To feel more than enough:  Learn something new in Christ every day.  Test God out in new situations every day. Focus on the end game. Remember who you are is who you attract, so become like Christ and attract people like Jesus into it.

In this new episode, Canon Mark and Rev. Brian explore the practical follow-up principles to Episode 3, focusing on the first two practices in our LEADS framework: Listen without remaining defensive and Establish what belongs to your role. The central leadership shift we find in Exodus is that Moses moves from, “The people come to me because God appointed me to lead,” toward a more mature understanding: God appointed him to develop a people capable of carrying the mission together.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Spence Shelton, Lead Pastor of Mercy Church, a rapidly growing multisite church in Charlotte, North Carolina. Since launching in 2015, Mercy has expanded to multiple campuses while maintaining a relentless focus on reaching people, developing leaders, and sending them into ministry. In this conversation, Spence shares how churches can intentionally build a culture of multiplication by developing leaders from within, creating healthy sending pathways, and stewarding opportunities for church revitalization. Stop “plucking” leaders. Start growing them. // One of Spence’s biggest challenges to church leaders is resisting the temptation to solve leadership shortages by hiring talent from elsewhere. Just as churches prioritize reaching lost people rather than simply attracting Christians from other churches, they should approach leadership development the same way. Instead of constantly recruiting experienced leaders, churches should intentionally identify, disciple, and develop people already sitting in their congregations. This approach takes longer, but it creates leaders deeply shaped by the church’s culture and mission. The power of the shoulder tap. // Many future ministry leaders never consider vocational ministry simply because no one asks them. Spence encourages pastors to intentionally “tap people on the shoulder” when they observe leadership potential. Some of Mercy’s key leaders—including executive pastors and campus pastors—came directly from marketplace careers like banking, manufacturing, and physical therapy. Rather than waiting for seminary graduates to apply, Mercy helps people connect their existing gifts and experiences to ministry opportunities. Create a clear leadership profile. // To make leadership development intentional, Mercy created a “Lead Pastor Profile” built around three categories: character, competency, and calling. While designed for future church planters, the framework serves as a roadmap for developing leaders throughout the church. By clearly defining what healthy leadership looks like, staff members know exactly what qualities to identify, cultivate, and reproduce in others. Character matters before charisma. // Within the character category, Spence believes self-awareness is one of the most overlooked leadership traits. Effective leaders understand both their strengths and limitations and are secure enough in their identity in Christ to build teams around areas where they are weaker. Without self-awareness, talented leaders can make excellent first impressions while creating long-term organizational damage. Character requires observation over time and not just impressive interviews. Multipliers build movements. // When evaluating leadership competency, the ability to multiply is critical. Can this person develop other leaders? Have they demonstrated the ability to move beyond accomplishing ministry personally and instead equip others to lead? Churches often unintentionally hire capable “doers” rather than leader-builders, limiting long-term growth. Multipliers create healthy ministries because they reproduce leadership instead of accumulating responsibility. Alignment creates unity. // Calling isn’t simply about theological agreement, but also includes ministry philosophy. Spence stresses the importance of ensuring leaders share the church’s convictions about how ministry is carried out. When someone consistently wants to reshape the church into something fundamentally different, the healthiest response may be helping them pursue the ministry God is calling them toward elsewhere. Clear alignment creates healthier teams and stronger long-term partnerships. Let people discover their gifts by leading. // Churches shouldn’t expect to know someone’s leadership potential before giving them opportunities to serve. Mercy intentionally creates pathways where people can lead community groups, coach leaders, and gradually assume greater responsibility. Some will flourish as long-term small group leaders. Others will demonstrate broader leadership gifting and eventually plant churches. The key is creating a culture where trying, learning, and growing are celebrated rather than feared. Revitalization begins with humility. // Spence also shares lessons from Mercy’s experience helping revitalize struggling churches. Successful partnerships require patient relationships, deep humility, and genuine respect for the legacy of existing congregations. Rather than viewing church buildings as opportunities to expand Mercy’s influence, the team approaches every conversation as the stewardship of Kingdom resources. By honoring the faithfulness of previous generations, Mercy has seen older congregations joyfully become part of new seasons of ministry fruitfulness. Faithfulness compounds over time. // Spence closes with an encouragement for church leaders: don’t underestimate what God can do through long-term faithfulness. Leaders often overestimate what can happen in five years while dramatically underestimating what God can accomplish over twenty. Healthy multiplication isn’t built through shortcuts. It grows steadily through consistent obedience, patient leadership development, and a commitment to stay the course. To learn more about Mercy Church, visit mercycharlotte.com or follow Spence Shelton or the church on social media for additional leadership resources and updates. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school's facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they're here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, this week is a great conversation and was recommended by one of my favorite church leaders in the country. And so you’re going to love this conversation. It’s going to be super helpful. And I do think it’s going to challenge you and provide you some steps forward. Rich Birch — Excited to have Spence Shelton with us. He is from Mercy Church, a multi-site church with three locations, if I’m counting correctly, in Charlotte, plus Church Online. God is leading Mercy Church into a season of a bunch of expansion and investment in ministry facilities and outreach over a two-year discipleship initiative called All to Him. They have a goal to launch the Mercy Family of Churches in in late 2025, which I think is maybe launched, or we’ll see where that goes, and is aiming to form their own collective within the next five years. Super excited to have you on the show today, Spence.Spence Shelton — Man, such an honor to be with you, Rich. Man, this is, I’m a big, going to say it, I’m a big fan of yours, man… Rich Birch — That’s kind of you to say. Spence Shelton — …because you have produced so much helpful content for me as a leader to lean into and grow little by little. And I can only hope that I can contribute a little bit more to the great work you’ve been doing, man.Rich Birch — Come on, that’s amazing. Honored to have you with us and to learn from you today, Spence. And mutual friend in Andrew Hopper…Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — …who I love, fantastic leader. And so shout out to Hopper. Thankful for what God’s doing in his church as well. So Mercy Church started in 2015. Give us a picture of kind of where things are at today. If we were to come to the church, what would we experience? Kind of talk us through the last season, kind of the last couple of years. What’s that look like?Spence Shelton — Yeah, man. So if you came to Mercy today, what you’d find is a church, you might be surprised to learn how big it actually is because the church is, you know, a couple thousand people, but it’s across seven services and three campuses. And there’s some of some of that’s intentional. Some of that is, hey, we’re just kind of following the Lord where he’s led in this. And we didn’t really plan for it, you know, so. Spence Shelton — Our average service size is not that big, but we’ve the Lord’s been really gracious. If you came what you’d find is especially at our broadcast campus you’d find an old church building that you’d be thinking: wait are all these people how are they you know filling in here, you know. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — And you’d see cars parked uh all through a neighborhood and everything else and you’d see a retrofitted old church building, and that’s just the story of God’s grace on us – a building that was given to us and a church family that decided, hey we want to join you guys and they gave us their building. Really cool moment that like a legacy moment of faith in our church. And a couple other spots where we’re seeing similar sorts of things and it’s just it’s awesome, man. Spence Shelton — So we feel blessed. We feel like we are um doing what God has called us to do because we’re seeing that kind of momentum in the ministry that we’re doing. But none of our facilities are going to wow you, I promise. I actually love training church planters because, you know, so many times they come in and they’re like, Oh, ah we can do this. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — I’m like, yeah, you can do it. You know? Rich Birch — That’s normal like us.Spence Shelton — So we are praying and asking the Lord for better wins. Yeah. But you can do it, man. If you can do it here, you can do it anywhere kind of thing. So Lord’s been really gracious to us. And it’s a, it’s been a real joy these past 10 years.Rich Birch — It’s so cool. It seems like you guys are in a bit of a pivotal season or an inflection point season where you’ve got a bunch of things on the horizon, launching Mercy Family of Churches… Spence Shelton — That’s right. Rich Birch — …the 50 Missionary Goal by 2030, a collective. Talk me through those. What is the future look like? What’s driving the urgency? Help us understand kind of what the future looks like.Spence Shelton — Yeah, man, I think this happens for any church, both leader and in just the life of a church. You come to those milestone moments. We hit it last year with 10 years, and it was not only a milestone in terms of age. There was some just real growth that had been happening to the church that was forcing some good conversations around long-term you know expansion so that we can continue to facilitate what we believe God, actually, I should say we could steward what God is doing in our church.Spence Shelton — And so we launched an initiative that we called All to Him. I was teaching through the book of Romans all year last year. And so it comes out of Romans 12:1 and 2, because Christ gave his all for us, we give our all to him. That is our living sacrifice that we do. Spence Shelton — And so we said, we got some goals as a church, man. We want to see our church, we got some reaching goals. We got some training up goals. We got some sending out goals. Because when I planted Mercy Church, one of the things that was on my heart: if we’re going to come to Charlotte, North Carolina, we were going to be a sending church. Which means we’re going to build a sending hub here where this thing’s going be like an aircraft carrier that just sends out missionaries all over the place into the battles that the Lord has for us across the world.Spence Shelton — That was just on my heart. Instead of going to, you know, a place that might be, might have a, I don’t know, like a north Pacific Northwest or Northeast, something like that. If we’re coming to the Southeast to the Bible Belt, we’re doing so intentionally. Very intentional.Spence Shelton — So that’s been on our heart um ever since day one and this All to Him initiative. You know, we were hoping that by 2030, we double the size of our church. That’s because Charlotte is growing by 150 people a day.Spence Shelton — So like, we’ve got to, you know, this isn’t like it’s just because it’s something we want to do. It’s a calling, a good stewardship of the moment that we’re in. And we want to we’re launching a seminary certificate program for our members of our church because we want to train them up. Right.Spence Shelton — And we got a goal to see 50 missionaries go on the mission field by 2030. We just planted a couple of weeks before the recording of this, we planted our next church here in Charlotte, and we’ve got plans for several more.Spence Shelton — We are a large family of churches about to become a collaborative. We’re, we’re ah you know, 2028, 2029, somewhere around there, we’ll officially form that collaborative if the Lord continues to do what he’s doing. All because, man, we are convinced that God has brought us here to reach people, train them up, send them out, which I hope does not sound novel to any church leader listening to this.Spence Shelton — I hope it just sounds like, yeah, man, that makes sense.Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — It’s like, well, then what’s the the magic or what’s the the secret sauce? It’s just putting your hand to the plow. And now here we are 10, 11 years in, and we’ve been steadily doing that same work. And I think the Lord is, um you know, our buddy Andrew would use the flywheel. That’s his favorite version of that illustration. But you keep putting your hand to the same thing and eventually the Lord starts to bear fruit. And that’s what we’re seeing now.Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. And yeah, you know that and you’re a kind leader, you know that for some leaders, the reason why we’re talking to you today is unfortunately, that is more novel than it should be. And so we want to dig into that a little bit.Spence Shelton — Sure..Rich Birch — Particularly, let’s maybe start with that middle section, this training goals, you’re working on trying to train people up. When you’re thinking about the kind of leadership vision you have as a church, you’re thinking about, hey, we’re going to raise up leaders both you know here to and then also sending.Rich Birch — I think we we can fall into this dichotomy around, okay, so do we find these leaders from other places and attract them to come here? Or, do we grow them up internally?Rich Birch — Do we find a way to develop them internally? So it’s this idea of plucking talent rather than developing it. Talk to me through why is training so hard in so many churches? Why do we struggle with that? And we seem to default towards, let’s just find somebody from over there and have them come and help us here.Spence Shelton — Yeah, man, I think that mentality starts all the way down to the idea of reaching people that don’t know Christ versus just sheep swapping from one church to the other church. Right.Spence Shelton — So you can grow your church by transfer growth. Um, which I actually am one who, Hey man, if somebody on the sideline in one church and then they plug into your church, I I’m all for it And if the same thing happens with Mercy, all for it. Spence Shelton — But our aim, what we all know as pastors and ministry leaders is our aim is man, let’s reach lost people and then disciple them. Right. Rich Birch — Yes.Spence Shelton — The same thing I think should be true with leadership development. For some reason, when it comes into developing leaders, we tend to go a different direction and think, well, let’s just go find where some leaders are and get them to to plug in.Spence Shelton — It’s like, we don’t do that even with discipleship. Why are we switching our mindset? And so I want to just kind of, I have to, I was convicted and wanted to call our church and I would call others to the same mindset that you have with discipleship. Let that carry over into your leadership and your leadership development as well.Spence Shelton — And I think that’s how we’re going to grow, just as how we’re going to grow the kingdom by reaching lost people, how we’re going to grow the leaders in the kingdom, the number of leaders we have, it’s going to be developing them in our church. And I just… I don’t know that we’re even thinking that way and asking the question, is the guy who’s a 27-year-old physical therapist in my church, has anybody ever bothered to tap him on the shoulder and ask, hey, man, could God be calling you into ministry?Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — Because I watch you and no we’re not doing the shoulder tap, man. And so um right now, I just I love it. Just a little bit of the story of our church… Rich Birch — Yeah. Spence Shelton — …our executive both of our executive pastors and two of our three campus pastors were all in the marketplace. One of our executive pastors was in banking. Another was a plant manager. We have two campus pastors who were both, I use physical therapists because they’re both former physical therapists. And you know, we’re sitting there having these conversations.Spence Shelton — You know what makes a great pastor is someone who has sat with person after person told them, hey, you should do this to feel better. And then they come back to you later and say, hey, I don’t feel better. And you say, did you do the thing I told you to do? And they say, no. And you say, well, you should have done that.Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — And a patient, long suffering physical therapist turns out to be a great pastor, but somebody’s got to tap him on the shoulder and say, hey, man, I think God might be calling you into this. And so my my encouragement to anybody who’s a in ministry right now, kind of in that leadership development role, and you’re like, I don’t know, we’re gonna have to go outside to find some talent.Spence Shelton — I promise it’s going to take longer the way I’m talking about. But if you will seek the Lord, ask the Lord, and then start shoulder tapping and giving some opportunities for guys to lead, for men and women to lead there in your ministry and whatever the leadership roles might be, I think there might be more people in there than you realize. Because I believe that God provides for the church that he’s growing, that he’s called you to lead. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Spence Shelton — And so I think the same thing is true with leaders as well.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. I love that. And I you know I love the even the vision for, hey, maybe there are some people within your church. We see this statistically, like even if you’re thinking about campus pastors, 9 out of 10 campus pastors are coming from within, which means we’ve got which means we’ve got to get good at this. Spence Shelton — Yeah.Rich Birch — And yeah, if your church has any kind of unique slant on the world, you’ve got to find people who have come up through that culture to ah to ultimately push that culture forward.Spence Shelton — Yes.Rich Birch — I love this this marketplace to ministry transition. How do we help people do that? That’s a real key transition. I would imagine on your end, you’ve got to help connect the dots for somebody. I love that there, how you even with the physical therapist, we’re able to connect the dots between, hey, here’s what you’re doing. Let me talk to you about the kind of role that we’re thinking about. How do you make that transition? Have you developed anything to try to help make that, you know could you know, connect those dots for people as you’re having those conversations?Spence Shelton — Yeah, I would say we don’t I don’t have a conversational map that I’m doing.Rich Birch — Sure.Spence Shelton — I don’t have that yet, though I think that’s just like many things, trial and error, and I’m still in the still cooking to formulate that map.Spence Shelton — But what I do have that we’ve worked through with our staff is something we call, it’s interesting, we actually call it the lead pastor profile.Rich Birch — Okay.Spence Shelton — The reason we call the lead pastor profile is because everything we’re doing, we’re building towards, developing towards planting more churches. And you’ve got to have a lead pastor to go and plant those churches. Rich Birch — Yeah. Spence Shelton — Now, the thing is actually when you when you look at it, it’s actually just a ministry leader profile, you know? Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — Everything on there, but there may be a couple of things that are nuanced specifically to lead pastors, but it’s kind of like when you go into Timothy and you see what are the characteristics of an elder? Well, every single one of them is just a good Christian, except then you got this thing able to teach. You know what mean? Rich Birch — Right, right.Spence Shelton — So it’s a similar thing is like most of our profile, nine points on it and divided into three buckets, it’s mostly just what makes a good ministry leader. Well, then what I’m doing is what we are doing is we’re taking that and we’re training our whole staff through it and saying, Hey, here’s what we are looking for. Here’s what we’re trying to develop. And then here’s everything. So I do a training monthly with our staff on these points. Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — And then I do it and I say, yeah, I have to verbally say it, never underestimate or never overestimate, I guess just that it’s going to happen without you saying it, always say what you want them to do, you know, just good old preaching point there. But man, Hey, I want you guys to take what I’m teaching you and go teach your volunteers. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — And go teach those that. And I want you to teach your leaders. And then I want your leaders to be able to teach them. And if it doesn’t work, I want you to come back and tell me so that we can get better at making this a multiplying thing. Right. Spence Shelton — So we just got to have a lot of checks and balances along the way. So we’re hopefully training. And it took a while to pull this together in a way that it makes sense to all of us. And now that we’re kind of running it, we can see the value in it of, hey, this is what we’re looking for. And now you can go shoulder tap and say, I know what I’m looking…So the the kids director can go, I know what I’m looking for.Spence Shelton — Now I can go and start shoulder tapping because I know what, you know what i mean? Now that know what I’m looking for, it’s…Rich Birch — Totally.Spence Shelton — Those are probably the the beginnings of a conversational map to to walk somebody through, but at least you know what you’re looking for. You can start to have those conversations. And if you have the relational equity, those conversations can really go somewhere.Rich Birch — Love it. I’d love to double click on that. I love this lead pastor profile idea. I think working to get the clarity I think is in is a great, you know, a great task for all of us to wrestle through.Rich Birch — We think, well, we want to develop our leaders, but then we don’t have any definition of what do we mean by a leader, like at its more most basic level.Spence Shelton — Yes.Rich Birch — So we don’t need to get into all nine, but are there a couple of them that are either counterintuitive or maybe we miss, or you find yourself coming back to time and again, that are like real dividing points or like ones that kind of stick out to you in the in the framework?Spence Shelton — Yeah. All right. So obviously all nine matter to me or I wouldn’t have had them all. So I’ll do my best.Rich Birch — Yes, exactly.Spence Shelton — I’ll do my best.Spence Shelton — So we divide him into three buckets, character, competency, and calling. So each one of those has three points under it. And I’ll click on one of them, maybe in each, and you can tell me if you want to go further.Rich Birch — Sure. That’s great. Yeah.Spence Shelton — But in character, the one that I find to be the most overlooked is self-awareness.Rich Birch — So true.Spence Shelton — I find that to be the most overlooked characteristic of a good leader is one who is aware of their strengths and aware of their weaknesses and is settled in their identity in Christ so that their weaknesses don’t crush them.Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — You know, they can instead build a team around them, you know. Because the classic thing with a lead pastor is to say, well, I’m good at vision and bad at details. It’s like, OK, man, maybe we need to do something a little more thoughtful than that, because that resonates with me for sure… Rich Birch — Right. Right. Spence Shelton — …that you ask the guys around me for sure. But what what? what about are you better at vision casting or vision creating? And what are the evidences of that in your ministry? You know, so for me, I’m better at vision casting than I am vision creating. That’s probably my my 9 to 10 is actually sharing it.Spence Shelton — But I got to have some help and and love having help in the other side of that. And so there are plenty of other things like that. But when we have someone who’s not aware of their strengths and weaknesses, usually that’s that’s like a stop point for us.Spence Shelton — And so if we’ve got someone we think, oh, man, they they come across because here’s the thing. Unless you have these points, somebody will can make a great first impression and a lot of long term damage in your ministry. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — Not because they have bad intent, but because they’re not aware of what they’re… And you give them a lot of responsibility and maybe they’re not actually, they don’t have the eyes of Jethro in Exodus 18 to know how to build out a ministry.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Spence Shelton — You just thought they did because they gave off a good first impression.Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — So that’s my biggest biggest one in that character, or not biggest one, but that’s a key one, I think, in the character is…Rich Birch — Right. A key one that sticks out.Spence Shelton — …man, are you self-aware? And so whatever we use, we love different, whether it’s the personality assessments, leadership assessments, but we also, and we just, we wanna develop from within because that gives us the ability to see.Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — We can see what their strengths and weaknesses are. Rich Birch — Yes. Spence Shelton — Because we’ve had people eyes on them for months and years and you can’t really trade that out.Rich Birch — Yeah, and character takes a long time of up-close observation to really get a sense of where where people are at.Spence Shelton — Yes.Rich Birch — Because, and you know we know this is, this is you know we don’t have to think long. There are lots of examples of leaders who—and all look great—but there’s like a 2% you know, problem in their character that ended up showing itself in the most kind of ugly of ways.Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — So I know all nine are super important. I get that. appreciate that. But we can’t be here for three hours. So competency, what was what’s one in there that that that tends to say we’re just trying to whet people’s appetite to kind of help them think through it a little bit.Spence Shelton — Yeah, man. For competency, the one that I would, the the one that, yeah, that spend a lot of time on when it comes to competency, what I would say is the multiplier. Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — I want someone who is a proven multiplier before I move them into an increased um level of leadership and responsibility. I want to see it, man. And if we, otherwise, again, what I’m trying to weed out is someone that talks a good game or someone that just has a, there may be someone I think a lot of leaders that might actually be really strong in the gift of hospitality have found themselves in the arena of administration simply because they are, like generous, kind, easy to talk to people. And they’re great. You want to be around them. They’re probably encouragers, that kind of thing. Spence Shelton — And it’s like, wait a minute, have they multiplied? Do they actually understand what it takes…Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — …to take someone from leading self, to use the old Ramsharan leadership pipeline, from leading self to leading others, have they actually, do they understand what it takes? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Spence Shelton — And do they understand what it takes to go from leading others to leading leaders? And have they, let’s let’s just look behind them. If you wanna go the the Bible route, you just take 2 Timothy 2:2…are they able to train up faithful teachers who can then teach others also? That to me is, especially when we get into who’s going to go out and plant a church…Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — …and I’m not sending somebody out that’s not a builder. Another way to say multiplier would be builder, but I say multiplier because I’m specifically thinking around leadership and leading those who will lead others. Rich Birch — Yeah. Spence Shelton — If we want to build a movement of churches for the sake of the glory of God, and we want these churches to go and continue to build, there’s got to be multipliers leading this. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Spence Shelton — You know, gotta be. So when it comes to competency, that’s like a a deal breaker for me for who we’re going to send out the plant. And so I want to develop it starting in our student ministry, you know, and working our way through or starting in our college ministry, working our way through.Spence Shelton — I don’t want to wait until we just try to, otherwise we’ve got to go pluck out from the, you know, ether, somebody that we hope is a multiplier. And I don’t want to do that. I’d rather raise them up.Rich Birch — Well, and we see this temptation in churches when they get to, say, 1,000, and then they’re they’re growing you know they’re they’re eyeing 2,000 beyond. There’s a there’s a dangerous temptation that can come in, particularly for our staff teams. I know we’re talking broader than just staff teams, but particularly for our staff teams, we can ah we can forget the Ephesians 4 call to equip others to to ministry.Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — And we just become doers. We hire doers rather than multipliers… Spence Shelton —Yes. Rich Birch — …because they get stuff done. And we’re like, oh man, they’re solving problems for us. But that is can then erode a church long-term very quickly. I’ve seen that so many times where they end up with, you know they slow down.Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — They’re like, why are we slowing down? It’s well, because you’ve stopped multiplying. You’ve stopped doing what we’re called to do. I love that. Rich Birch — So then the third category calling anything in there that would, that steps that kind of is similar. Again, I know all nine are are really important, but, but any of those that that kind of jumped to the, to the front.Spence Shelton — Maybe I’ll give you one that has we’ve learned through some some painful trial and error, Rich Birch — Okay. Sure. Spence Shelton — And that is, we call it alignment. And what we mean by that is: as you develop a leader, when it comes to their long-term place in your church and leading maybe even beyond your, so in our case, beyond our church to going in and leading ah a church that’s going be a part of the family of our churches, it’s really important that not only are they theologically aligned, but they are philosophically aligned in terms of how we do church.Spence Shelton — So no shade on any other way of doing church. What I’m saying is so that we can continue to be united in one voice internally, so at Mercy Church with how we do discipleship, and then so that we can be united in how we can help and train one another as a family of churches, we got to be aligned not just around our theological convictions, but on our ministry convictions, how we do it.Spence Shelton — I would say to those of you out there who have a promising young leader, but it seems like they just don’t want to do, they want to change your church into their, a different kind of church.Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — The best thing you can do is set them free. Rich Birch — Yes. Spence Shelton — And I don’t mean like, that’s not like code for firing, by the way, that genuinely that genuinely is like, help them find a way, an off ramp to whatever it is they sense God calling them to. If they’re not, you know, they might be just, they need more season of development. That might be all it is. But when it comes to appointing people towards and, and, setting people into key leadership. So take an elder role at Mercy Church, community group coaching, shepherding, that kind of thing where you’re in now, you are shaping, not just participating. You’re really shaping the DNA of our church. Spence Shelton — We’ve got to be aligned with what we’re doing. It also makes for a much more enjoyable experience. I’m not saying we’re not thinking. We’re always thinking over here about how to do it better and trying to be faithful and everything else.Rich Birch — Yes.Spence Shelton — Of course. But I’m saying, man, you want to feel like you’re locked arm and arm going together. And when conviction comes that goes a separate way, it’s like best to separate. So we’ve we’ve learned that the kind of the hard way. I think a lot of lessons are hard.Rich Birch — Sure.Spence Shelton — And so I offer this as our missions pastor likes to say, we have paid some dumb tax. Rich Birch — True. Spence Shelton — And so wherever we can save another person from paying it, we’d love to do that for you.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love that. and And yeah, I think alignment’s a massive deal and and calling it out. And I would think being in a church that is um so focused on sending, you’re you’re hoping that that’s a big part of what’s kind of the outcome of the church. Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — That, you know, having an an outlet for that sending in a way that makes the most sense. Hey, here’s a leader who seems to have the skills and, you know, and and and then you can celebrate, hey, they seem to have some unique ideas that they want to go and see happen somewhere else.Spence Shelton — Yes. Yes.Rich Birch — That’s fantastic. Rather than having to like fight that. I think that’s cool. That’s really good. Rich Birch — So, you know, help me ah pick this apart a little bit. So one of the interesting things I find in this whole kind of leadership pathway, leadership pipeline conversation is there are, so I think we all can be influential. I think in one way we are all called to be leaders, but not necessarily everyone that we’re discipling is necessarily going to be a lead pastor. They’re not all necessarily going to. Rich Birch — Now I understand we’re kind of discipling towards that, but help me understand what are you doing internally with folks that you’re like, I just, they’re just not going to make that jump eventually. How do you have that conversation? I know that’s a hard conversation. What does that look like?Spence Shelton — Right.Rich Birch — Or am I just looking at this wrong? Which could be the case too. Happy to be wrong. Help help me think through that.Spence Shelton — Well, we’ve got to have some freedom that comes from distinctive categories. This will help us a great deal. Helps me in pastoring a great deal. First, we got to have the category of spiritual gift. The Lord has given everyone a spiritual gift… Rich Birch — Yep. Spence Shelton — …and we got to celebrate that. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — And we got to be careful not to turn the leadership pipeline into, or that concept of leader development, turn that into a a grading of gifts. Like you’ve got a, you know, you’re, you need to graduate from one gift. Maybe that’s a better way to say it. Graduate from one gift to the other, to the other. It’s like, no, no, no. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — What we’re not talking about is graduating out of your gift set. God has given you that. And the best thing for you and for his church is to get really good at how he’s given you or how he’s gifted you. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — And when we when we conflate those, when we only talk about just you know getting better, it’s like, man, we got to watch out. Instead, let’s say, how can we get better at the giftings God has given us so that we can steward it really well?Spence Shelton — And then we find ourselves able to say, and when it comes to leadership, and here we are as church leaders, we’re now inside of a category. We’re inside of a category of leadership. And how can we develop leaders who are gifted by God as leaders? Well, the good news is maybe take some pressure off everybody, you’re not really going to know if someone’s gifted in leadership until you let them try to lead. Rich Birch — True, yes. Spence Shelton — So you got to let them try to lead, man. And then as they lead and you give them a couple of swings, two, three, four, whatever, and you coach them along the way, hey, here’s what we’re looking for in a leader. Here’s how you can grow from leading self leading others. Take the pressure off. Spence Shelton — This might be how God has gifted you, we don’t know. But the best way to see, based on what we’ve seen so far, is to let you try. So here’s a community group, and here are the things you’re gonna need to be a good community group leader, and we’re gonna coach you and support you.Spence Shelton — Let’s go. And let’s see what the next six months brings, right? Rich Birch — Yep, that’s great.Spence Shelton — Hey, this went really well. We wanna take you out of this community group leader seat and put you in as a coach. Now there’s a different set of skills you’re gonna need to be a coach, but man, it seems like your people responded to your leadership. What do we think about you as a coach? Spence Shelton — Each set of the way, man, do I have the, the way I always say it to our staff—they’re sick of me saying this, so it’s great to talk to you because…Rich Birch — I’m not sick of it. Yeah.Spence Shelton — …[inaudible] fresh person to say this too—is that clarity in expectations creates confidence in execution. The clearer you are with what you are asking someone to do, the more confident they will be in doing it. Another way to say it.Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — So that’s just my my big thing there on on this. Let’s get over now that we’re, and what we’re going to find is some people are going to lead a community group faithfully for 20, 30 years at our church. Rich Birch — Right, right.Spence Shelton — Praise the Lord. What we can’t see is that we can’t see that a failure. Rich Birch — No. Spence Shelton — Others are going to lead for six months to two years. And we’re going to man, this, this person’s a leader and, and we’re seeing it. They already, they’re planting. Spence Shelton — I had someone come up to me the other day at church and tell me, Hey man, I just wanted to tell you, we’re so excited. You challenged me about five years ago to lead a community group. And we just planted our fifth group. And I went, like I went, I was, my mind went so far. I didn’t even have time to be, to be celebrating. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — Cause I was like, does anybody know that there’s a guy out here… Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Who’s just cranking out groups. Spence Shelton — …with the with an apostolic gift just planting groups every year what’s going so so. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. Spence Shelton — I was like hey, but so that that was a a great moment the Lord gave me just of, hey this is this is going really well and there will be some that will lead a group and things won’t go well and they won’t go well and you’ll keep trying different efforts. So to my community group leader friends, hey once someone tries and tries and tries, would you maybe tap their shoulder and say hey can we try something else. You know. Rich Birch — Good. Spence Shelton — Like you are not a failure. We just got to find the gift that God has given you. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — And the more that’s in the conversation of your church, that’s in the atmosphere of your church—We’re just looking for the way God’s gifted you. And we’re going to try and make you the best you can be at how he’s gifted you.—The easier the conversation is going to be of, I don’t think it’s community group leadership. I don’t think it’s this. I don’t think it’s that. Because we have a culture of, Hey, trial and error, you know?Rich Birch — Right. That’s good. That’s so good. I love that. And I love this has been a great kind of look under the hood of this whole multiplication issue. I think a lot of church leaders out there have the desire. They have the like, oh, we, man, I would love to be a church that has that kind of vision. But then what are the mechanics underneath of that? How do we actually do that?Spence Shelton — Yeah. Yeah.Rich Birch — Super helpful. Pivoting in this totally, well, it’s a related but different direction. Your church has been involved in a number of revitalizations. You talked about on the you know top end, you had a you know facility given to you. And I this is like a super inappropriate, with just a few minutes left, curveball to throw in there. What’s your shorthand thing for us to learn about that? Rich Birch — You know that we’ve seen, particularly from a multisite point of view, this area has grown hugely in the last 10 years. It was 10 years ago, 5% of new campuses came about because multiple revitalization. The most recent study showed showed it was 40%. Spence Shelton — Wow.Rich Birch — I suspect Warren’s out talking right now. I suspect the number is even going to be higher. What are the few things that you’ve learned about, you know, those kinds of conversations and relationships that have allowed it to work for you? And it’s been helpful. It’s been a joy giving part of the story at Mercy. Talk us through that.Spence Shelton — I’m going to do so using another point in my lead pastor profile just to have some fun here.Rich Birch — Love it.Spence Shelton — So one of the things we look for in a leader is confident humility. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — Confident in terms of, man, they believe God has called them to something. You know there’s a there’s a settled confidence there. But the humility to be patient and wait on the Lord and see what he has and to consider others, Philippians, to consider others more important than yourself. Right? This matters a great deal when it comes to this area of revitalization.Spence Shelton — What a leader needs to know that there’s this temptation, and I had it, of why would you not give us your church building? Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — Things are going well for us and struggling for you. Why would you not do that?Rich Birch — Yes.Spence Shelton — Well, it’s that there’s an unintentional, I’m call it a holy ambition that may be a little bit creating some blinders. Okay, let’s use the positive side of that. The the negative side would be there’s some arrogance there. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.Spence Shelton — But the positive would be holy ambition. But what you gotta know is, man, often these facilities that are housing these churches, the ones that are remaining, a lot of the times that there are people that have been there for decades and for a generation or two, and they put blood, sweat, tears and money into where they are. Spence Shelton — And we had to take the the approach of slow by my standards, still fast by theirs… Rich Birch — Yes. Spence Shelton — …slow by my standards. Conversation after conversation that began with , in both of these cases, began with the church that needed revitalizing coming to us. We didn’t go to them. Spence Shelton — They came to us and said, hey, we’re trying to figure out what’s next. We hear you might be able to help. How can you help?Spence Shelton — And we had to present them. We had to consider that a stewardship process. of a kingdom resource, not a how do we advance the name of Mercy Church.Spence Shelton — And so it’s happened two different ways for us right now. One is a campus of our church. You know, we it took months and months, but they wound up voting to hand us the keys, join our congregation, and we held their hand the whole way through. And it was a really beautiful thing. And it’s where our broadcast campus meets today. Spence Shelton — There’s another one that happened where we decided the best thing was for that to be a, because of the neighborhood it’s in in East Charlotte, to be a church planting incubator where we could plant a church every 18 months to two years. Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah.Spence Shelton — And so that’s what we’re doing right now. And there’s a church plant in there. And that was the best stewardship of that building. And after the conversation with their people, but we kind of, we basically put that with them and say, I had a lot of lunches and dinners that I just I’m going to tell you, if you want to get into this game and you want to do it in a way that’s going to honor the Lord, you got to be ready for the patient handholding that I would say is honoring a legacy of faith these folks are are taking.Spence Shelton — In many ways, the greatest step of faith taken in our church has been a couple of other churches handing us keys…Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%.Spence Shelton — …to something that the Lord was an outpost for the gospel at one point. And now in both of those cases for us and in the others that we’re starting to see that are still too soon for me to talk about, it’s just, man, now there’s an outpouring happening in both of those places. And you got like, man, there’s a couple of folks that are from the original congregation of what is now our, where our broadcast campus now is. And they, they, they’re greeters. They have tears more mornings than they don’t on Sunday mornings.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, for sure.Spence Shelton — It’s beautiful, man. Rich Birch — Yeah, it is.Spence Shelton — I mean, they’re all in. They are way bigger fans of Mercy Church than I am. And I’m the lead pastor of the church. Rich Birch — Yes, right. Spence Shelton — You know what I mean? And they just, they are like, they love, because what they actually are is they, they took a step of faith, a huge step of faith, trusting the Lord. And the Lord has blessed them and renewed a a vigor in their ministry. Spence Shelton — I saw a couple of them, mid 80s, and it was about 11 a.m. weekday and they were leaving the church building. I was pulling up. I just put windows down. Hey, what are you doing? It’s like, well, we just finished prayer walk in the neighborhood a couple of times…Rich Birch — Wow.Spence Shelton — …and it’s getting too hot now. We’re going inside. And I’m like, these are the people I want, man. Rich Birch — Yes.Spence Shelton — Like just they’re retired and they have chosen they’re going their day prayer walking. It’s like, well, you told us to pray. And I’m like, yeah. Yeah. Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Yeah, that’s incredible.Spence Shelton — Thank you for leading the way you have the time and this is what you do with it. So, man, there are if if all we see is just, Oh a facility to advance my cause. And we miss what has actually been the sweetest thing for our church has been our very young church got some grandparents.Rich Birch — Yes. Spence Shelton — It’s beautiful, man. Beautiful. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. That’s so good. Spence Shelton — So that’s just a little bit I learned from that ah from those couple of runs we’ve had. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. And yeah, that underlines, so it’s definitely the majority—I think it’s three quarters, if I remember the most recent statistics on these sort of revitalizations—are coming about because the joining church is coming to the lead church, not the other way around.Spence Shelton — That’s right. That’s right.Rich Birch — And so you have to position yourself in a way that that confident humility is a great kind of benchmark to be thinking about, friends. How do we you know hold ourselves in a way that we’re here to serve other people, we’re here to care for them in a way. And I say to church leaders when we talk about these things, I’m like, you have to handle these relationships well enough so that then they’ll tell other people, hey, wow, we loved working with Mercy Hill.Rich Birch — Man, there we love working with Mercy Church. Well, we love working with mercy Mercy Hill too. Spence Shelton — Sure. That’s right.Rich Birch — We love working with Mercy Hill, Mercy Church, too many Mercies. Wow, what a great you know interaction that was been. And wow, that’s a life-giving thing.Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — And I loved that. That is what ultimately we’ll see more of these happen long-term. Not because you did some, you know, so too many people have these like, You know, like they use merger and takeover and like this kind of aggressive language, which just doesn’t help in the conversation at all.Spence Shelton — No, it doesn’t help at all. Yeah, that’s exactly right. You got to have that humility. And if somebody’s sitting there wondering, okay, man, well, how do I how do I wait on that without, I want to go get it. I want to get started. I’d say two or three things to do if you’re looking and you believe your church might be a good church candidate for helping another church revitalize, whether that’s being a campus of yours or or something to that effect. Spence Shelton — I’d say first start praying and asking the Lord. And that if you’re not fasting, then you’re not praying yet. Rich Birch — Yeah. Love it.Spence Shelton — So I don’t want to hear that you’re praying if you’re not fasting on this. Secondly, man, this is why networks matter. So I would say whatever your denomination or stream is, whatever, however you’re kind of tied to other churches in your community. If you have no relationships with other churches in your community, and then you want to go and be the revitalizer, that’s going to come, that’s probably going to come across a certain way.Spence Shelton — So There are a number of—years and years and years—of meetings that I’ve gone to, conversations I’ve sat in, in order to genuinely try to say, how can we help? How can we help?Rich Birch — Yeah.Spence Shelton — Whether that’s sending a worship leader to go serve at a church one Sunday morning or helping one church with a a building fundy kind of like thing they got to upfit or something, you know.Spence Shelton — Basically, I’m trying to be a team player in the Kingdom here in our little corner of the world in Charlotte. And then that’s going to earn the respect and the trust for when those conversations can happen in the relational network, those conversations can happen. Spence Shelton — So I am one who just in my nature, I do not like meetings. I don’t like them. Rich Birch — Sure.Spence Shelton — They feel like necessary evils. Rich Birch — Love it.Spence Shelton — And I’m trying to get better about that. But they are actually what I do love and value is trust and relationships. And again, confident humility. I have to be more about the Kingdom than I do about my own church. And a rising tide lifts all boats, you know.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Well, this been a great conversation today, Spence. I really appreciate that. And thanks for going with me there with that little you know detour at the end.Spence Shelton — Of course, the joy.Rich Birch — That was fantastic. But anything you’d love to share just as we wrap up today’s conversation?Spence Shelton — I would say too—I don’t know what’s spurring this, but something that has helped me so much in my ministry to the leader out there, especially the young leader, but maybe to all of them—you will always overestimate what you can do in five years and you will drastically underestimate what you can do in 20. Rich Birch — That’s so true.Spence Shelton — And there maybe a way to say it is you will overestimate what God will do and underestimate what God will do. So this is a little plug of me saying, stay the course, stay the course where you’re at. The Lord is going to do a work in honor of your faithfulness to the work. Stay in it, man. Stay in it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Just to add to that, I’m doing some research on working on a book on churches that break the 2000 barrier. And one of the interesting telltale signs are senior leaders and senior leadership teams that have been in the same church or the same community for 20 plus years. Spence Shelton — There you go. Rich Birch — So going into their third decade, it just takes time. Spence Shelton — There it is. Rich Birch — You know, it’s not it’s it’s not you know’s not overnight. Rich Birch — Well, I really appreciate this. This has been a great a great conversation. Spence, if people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online? Spence Shelton — Yeah, man, you can go to probably social media is the the day and age that we live in. So @SpenceShelton is my social media handle. It’s Instagram and and those kind of things. Our church is just @MercyCharlotte. And you can go on our website, mercycharlotte.com. Find everything you need there. Spence Shelton — We’re launching a podcast. Praise God, let’s go. You can find all of it, though, just through our Instagram handles, which is usually a good first landing point for folks. And however we can help, man, feel free to reach out. Nothing super shiny about what we got going on over here, but we love being in the game for the Kingdom. However we can help.Rich Birch — All the best as you serve in Charlotte. Thanks so much, man.Spence Shelton — Thank you, brother.

What if your brain suddenly decided that words had colors? In this episode of The Box of Oddities, Kat and Jethro dive into one of neuroscience's strangest documented phenomena: a woman who suffered a traumatic brain injury and awoke seeing vivid colors every time someone spoke. Her condition—known as acquired speech-to-color synesthesia—raises an unsettling question: if the brain can rewrite reality after an injury, how much of the world we experience is actually being created inside our own minds? From disappearing colors and tetrachromats who may perceive millions of shades the rest of us never will, to the mystery of whether your experience of "red" is anything like anyone else's, this episode explores the fragile line between perception and reality. Then, the conversation shifts to one of South Korea's most haunting unsolved mysteries: the 1991 disappearance of the Frog Boys. Five young friends set out to collect salamander eggs on a day off from school and never returned. After one of the largest searches in the nation's history, their remains were discovered eleven years later in an area investigators had searched repeatedly. Was it a tragic accident, a calculated murder, or something else entirely? Decades later, the case remains unsolved—but it forever changed how South Korea responds to missing children. Along the way, expect the usual detours into bizarre headlines, questionable road-trip food decisions, and the wonderfully weird conversations that only happen inside The Box of Oddities. In this episode: Acquired speech-to-color synesthesia How the brain creates color and perception Tetrachromats and the mystery of subjective reality The neuroscience of consciousness and qualia The unsolved Frog Boys case How one tragedy transformed South Korea's missing-child investigations If you love strange science, unsolved mysteries, psychology, neuroscience, true crime, and the wonderfully inexplicable, welcome home. The Freak Family has been waiting for you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Leave us a voicemail!Marc Bekoff, PhD, joins Zazie and Kristi to talk about his new book Love in Their Hearts, his work (and upcoming book) with Jane Goodall, and what it's like studying canids.We talked about:Why Marc and his co-author Jeff Campbell wrote Love In Their HeartsThe time Marc's dog Jethro rescued a baby bunny, and stories of the grizzly bear known as 399The importance of naming animalsMarc's research on dogs, wolves, coyotes, and foxes, and how his work replaced theories of dominance leading to the dissolution of litters in the wildHow animals tell storiesMarc's work with Jane Goodall, how he first heard of her, and how she influenced his workThe educator's kit that goes with Love In Their Hearts and how it can inspire hope and activism in young readersThe book Marc recommended is Knowing Wonder: An Elephant Story by Merrill Sapp illustrated by Gareth Hooks. You can read Marc's interview with Merrill Sapp here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animal-emotions/202412/an-elephants-world-from-the-mind-and-heart-of-a-matriarchLove In Their Hearts: A Celebration of Animal Emotions and a Guide to Compassionate Action is by Marc Bekoff and Jeff Campbell.Every Elephant Has a Name by Jane Goodall and Marc Bekoff illustrated by Gavin Scott will be published on Feb 8, 2027.Marc Bekoff will be at Bark! Fest to talk about Love In Their Hearts on Sep 23, joining Alison Pearce Stevens (Detective Dogs). Sign up here: https://us06web.zoom.us/webinar/register/1317856369316/WN_QnjJGASbSvyWmpRL-mp1lQFind out more about Bark! Fest and sign up for the other events at companionanimalpsychology.comMarc Bekoff is professor emeritus of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Colorado, Boulder. He has won many awards for his research and writing, including a Guggenheim Fellowship and the Exemplar Award from the Animal Behavior Society. He writes regularly for Psychology Today and has published more than thirty books, including The Emotional Lives of Animals and numerous scientific and popular essays. Visit marcbekoff.com to learn more.Find Marc's Psych Today blog here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animal-emotionsSupport the showAbout the co-hosts:Kristi Benson is an honours graduate of, and now on staff with, the prestigious Academy for Dog Trainers and has her PCBC-A from the Pet Professional Accreditation Board. She lives in beautiful northern British Columbia, where she helps dog guardians through online classes. She is also a northern anthropologist.Kristi Benson's website  Facebook  Zazie Todd, PhD, is the award-winning author of Bark! The Science of Helping Your Anxious, Fearful, or Reactive Dog, Wag: The Science of Making Your Dog Happy and Purr: The Science of Making Your Cat Happy. She is the creator of the popular blog, Companion Animal Psychology, and has a column at Psychology Today. She lives in Maple Ridge, BC, with her husband, a dog and a cat. Instagram  BlueSky 

What were someone's last words really supposed to reveal? During the Victorian era, people believed a person's final moments exposed the truth about their soul. Families gathered around deathbeds with notebooks in hand, hoping to capture profound final wisdom—but history suggests many of the world's most famous last words may have been polished, embellished, or invented entirely. In this episode of The Box of Oddities, Jethro explores the fascinating history behind legendary final quotes from Oscar Wilde, Admiral Horatio Nelson, Nathan Hale, and gangster Dutch Schultz, asking whether these iconic farewell lines tell us more about the dying... or the living. Then Kat investigates one of the strangest neurological mysteries you've probably never heard of: Nipple Sadness (also called Sad Nipple Syndrome). Why do some people experience an unexpected wave of sadness, anxiety, guilt, or even homesickness when their nipples are stimulated? Scientists think hormones and brain chemistry may be involved, but the phenomenon remains largely unexplained. It's an episode about the stories we tell ourselves at the end of life—and the bizarre ways our brains can surprise us while we're still living. In this episode: The Victorian tradition of collecting famous last words Were Oscar Wilde's final words invented? The mystery surrounding Admiral Nelson's "Kiss me, Hardy" Dutch Schultz's bizarre deathbed ramblings Why we remember death the way we do What causes "Nipple Sadness"? The possible connection to dopamine, oxytocin, and Dysphoric Milk Ejection Reflex (D-MER) Strange neuroscience and unexplained human experiences If you love strange history, neuroscience, medical mysteries, psychology, famous last words, Victorian culture, and bizarre true stories, this episode belongs in your ears. #BoxOfOddities #FamousLastWords #VictorianHistory #Neuroscience #MedicalMysteries #DutchSchultz #OscarWilde #BrainScience #WeirdHistory #Podcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Monday morning can feel like a countdown to stress, but what if your workplace is actually one of God's main tools for shaping you? We dig into a surprising framework for a Christian view of work: God isn't only interested in what you achieve on the job, He's deeply committed to who you're becoming through it. If you've ever felt stuck in the cycle of performance, approval, and exhaustion, this conversation offers a better target than “success” alone: transformation into the likeness of Jesus.We break down three ways workplace discipleship shows up in real life. First, pressure. Deadlines, interruptions, and overload can reveal where our priorities drift and where our “responsibility” has quietly turned into over-responsibility. The story of Moses and Jethro brings it home: sometimes the growth step isn't working harder, it's learning healthier ways to work through delegation, boundaries, and the courage to say no even to good opportunities.Then we talk about people, because every job has someone who tests your patience. Instead of trying to control others, we focus on what we can control: our response, our humility, our compassion, and our ability to live peaceably as far as it depends on us. Finally, we address pain at work, from criticism and unfair treatment to loss and disruption, and why God can redeem even those seasons to build character and deeper trust. 

Burnout isn't always an emotional problem—it can be a structural one. This message explores how God never intended us to carry every burden alone. Through the story of Moses and Jethro, discover how healthy margins, wise structure, and shared responsibility lead to lasting peace instead of constant exhaustion.

n this third installment of the Good Company series, Pastor Dominique Beaumonte explores one of the Bible's greatest examples of godly counsel: the relationship between Moses and his father-in-law, Jethro (Exodus 18).After leading Israel through miraculous victories, Moses found himself exhausted, overwhelmed, and carrying burdens God never intended him to bear alone. It took a trusted voice to lovingly point out what Moses could no longer see.In this episode, you'll discover:Why every believer needs people who will tell them the truth.How wise relationships reveal our blind spots.The difference between criticism and godly correction.Why humility is essential for spiritual growth.How the right voices can protect your future and preserve your calling.Whether you're a leader, a parent, a ministry worker, or simply trying to grow in your faith, this conversation will challenge you to consider not only who is in your circle—but whose wisdom you're willing to receive.Scripture: Exodus 18:13–27Connect with Reconciliation Church

33.034 When you've got rockin' on your mind... it's gotta be DJ Del Villarreal's "Go Kat, GO! The Rock-A-Billy Show!" Broadcasting LIVE from the world-famous Motorbilly Studio, it's your Aztec Werewolf™ pal, DJ Del bringing you 3 big hours of the hottest roots-rockin' sounds around. Tonight we're wishing the late American country music comedian and guitarist (Henry) "Homer" Haynes (of Homer & Jethro fame) a happy 106th posthumous birthday with a bushel basket of hilarious hillbilly rockers! More great songs from bands appearing at the Great Lakes Rockabilly Road Trip (go to the website www.greatlakesrockabilly.com for info, tickets and news!) and a raucous R&B set featuring both vintage and modern rockin' blues acts! Requests: del at motorbilly dot com - good to the last bop!™Please follow on FaceBook, Instagram & Twitter!

The right financial advisor can help you plan for the future. But the right kind of counsel can do something more: help you stay anchored to what matters most. When we seek financial guidance, we're not simply looking for information. We're looking for direction. And for believers, that direction should be shaped by God's Word—not merely by the market. Money decisions are never just financial. They touch our hopes, fears, sense of control, and ultimately our trust in God. That's why Scripture consistently points us toward the importance of wise counsel. The Wisdom of Seeking Counsel Proverbs 11:14 says: “Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.” That word safety matters. It points to the protection and stability that can come when we humbly seek wisdom beyond our own perspective. Seeking counsel requires humility. It means admitting that we don't always see the whole picture. That isn't weakness—it's wisdom. Consider Moses in Exodus 18. God had called him to lead Israel, yet his father-in-law, Jethro, noticed something Moses had missed. People were lining up from morning until evening while Moses tried to handle every dispute himself. Jethro told him plainly, “What you are doing is not good.” He then suggested a better way. Moses listened. He delegated responsibility, and both he and the people were better served. If Moses needed wise counsel, surely we do too. That is especially true when it comes to money. In a culture that prizes financial independence, it can be easy to confuse independence with self-reliance. But Proverbs 19:20 reminds us: “Listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future.” Every Financial Plan Reflects a Worldview Not all counsel is the same. Technical expertise matters. Credentials matter. Experience matters. But the worldview beneath the advice matters too. Every financial recommendation carries assumptions about what constitutes success, how much is enough, where security is found, what generosity should look like, how we should think about retirement, and ultimately what wealth is for. Advice may sound impressive and still quietly move our hearts toward goals Scripture never gives us. Jesus warned in Luke 12:15: “Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” A spreadsheet can help us plan, but it cannot shepherd the heart. That is one reason values-aligned financial counsel can make such a meaningful difference. Why Shared Values Matter Recent research from Pinkston compared clients working with Certified Kingdom Advisors® (CKA®)—financial professionals trained to integrate biblical wisdom into their practice—with clients of general financial advisors. Among clients of general advisors, 64% prioritized investment returns. Among CKA® clients, however, 70% prioritized shared beliefs and values. For many Christian investors, shared faith is not simply an added benefit. It shapes the entire financial conversation. That alignment also appears to foster significant trust. CKA® clients reported a 98% retention rate and a Net Promoter Score of 83, compared with 58 among general-advisor clients. But perhaps even more important is how values-aligned counsel can broaden the conversation beyond financial performance alone. Eighty-one percent of Certified Kingdom Advisors® (CKA®) said they help clients incorporate faith or values-based investing into their financial plans, compared with 57% of general advisors. Clients working with CKA®s were also twice as likely to have significantly increased their charitable giving. That matters because Scripture never treats money in isolation. It connects our financial choices with worship, trust, contentment, generosity, and obedience. Jesus said in Matthew 6:21: “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” Our financial decisions do more than move money. They reveal—and help shape—what has captured our hearts. Counsel That Sees Money as Stewardship The research also found that 72% of Certified Kingdom Advisors® (CKA®) reported being very fulfilled in their work, compared with 48% of general advisors. In addition, 80% said their work was closely aligned with their life's purpose. That kind of perspective matters. When an advisor sees financial planning not simply as managing assets but as serving people, the relationship can become about much more than maximizing returns. It can create space to ask deeper questions: How much is enough? What has God entrusted to me? How should generosity shape my financial plan? What does faithful stewardship look like in this season? Those are not questions a financial calculator can answer by itself. Finding the Right Financial Counsel So, how do you find wise, values-aligned financial counsel? Start by asking good questions. Ask a prospective advisor how their faith shapes the way they think about money, risk, generosity, success, and the purpose of wealth. Look for someone with both professional competence and a worldview that recognizes God as the ultimate owner of everything we have. A wise advisor will not make every decision for you—and shouldn't. You remain responsible for the resources God has entrusted to your care. But the right advisor can help you cut through the noise, ask better questions, see blind spots, and build a financial plan around what matters most. Surrounding yourself with godly, competent counsel does not remove your responsibility as a steward. It can help you carry that responsibility more faithfully. To connect with a Certified Kingdom Advisor® (CKA®) who is committed to integrating biblical wisdom with financial expertise, visit FindACKA.com. On Today's Program, Rob Answers Listener Questions: I'm 65 and planning to retire in January. My wife and I will have a little over $100,000 a year from Social Security, Air Force retirement, and VA disability. I also have $200,000 in a 401(k)—$150,000 traditional and $50,000 Roth. How much of the traditional 401(k) can I convert to Roth each year, and would it make sense to spread those conversions over several years to minimize taxes? My wife and I have $80,000 that we'd like to earn interest on. We could leave it untouched for three to six months. Would an online high-yield savings account, CD, or another option make the most sense? I have about $36,000 in a 457 deferred compensation plan and cash match account. What are my options for that money? Can I move it elsewhere, leave it where it is, or set up monthly withdrawals? I'm 40 and have $70,000 in a Roth IRA, $46,000 in a traditional IRA, and $200,000 in a taxable brokerage account. Should I use the traditional IRA or taxable account to put more money into Roth? And over time, should I keep some money in the traditional IRA for tax diversification or eventually convert it all? I'd like to understand how Social Security is taxed. Does annuity income count toward the income thresholds that determine whether Social Security benefits are taxable? And how is the annuity income itself taxed? Resources Mentioned: Faithful Steward: FaithFi's Quarterly Magazine (Become a FaithFi Partner) Bankrate AdelFi Christian Banking FaithFi Field Guide: How Much Money is Enough?  Our Ultimate Treasure: A 21-Day Journey to Faithful Stewardship by Rob West Wisdom Over Wealth: 12 Lessons from Ecclesiastes on Money Look At The Sparrows: A 21-Day Devotional on Financial Fear and Anxiety Rich Toward God: A Study on the Parable of the Rich Fool Find a Certified Kingdom Advisor® (CKA) FaithFi App Remember, you can call in to ask your questions every weekday at (800) 525-7000. Faith & Finance is also available on Moody Radio Network and American Family Radio. You can also visit FaithFi.com to connect with our online community and partner with us as we help more people live as faithful stewards of God's resources. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Many of us live with an unspoken assumption: "If I don't do it, no one will."  Jethro challenges Moses' belief that the well-being of God's people rests entirely on his shoulders. Listen as we explore what it looks like to let go of the illusion that it all depends on us and remember that it ultimately depends on Him.Exodus 18Andy Kvernen

What do dinosaur fossils, Bubble Wrap, Super Soakers, Viagra, and Bob Ross have in common? More than you'd think. In this episode of The Box of Oddities, Jethro introduces the astonishing true story of Baron Franz Nopcsa—the eccentric Hungarian aristocrat who transformed himself into one of history's most visionary paleontologists. Decades before mainstream science caught up, he proposed that some dinosaurs were warm-blooded, cared for their young, and evolved through island dwarfism. But his remarkable life didn't stop there. Nopcsa also became an explorer, linguist, spy, and even launched a serious bid to become King of Albania. His extraordinary achievements, however, are overshadowed by one of the most tragic endings imaginable. Then Kat lightens the mood with a celebration of history's greatest happy accidents. Discover how forgotten experiments and unexpected mistakes gave us saccharin, Bubble Wrap, the Super Soaker, and even Viagra—proving that some of humanity's biggest breakthroughs happened because someone was curious enough to ask, "What else could this be?" It's an episode filled with brilliant minds, bizarre history, accidental inventions, dark twists, and the wonderfully unexpected. In this episode: * Baron Franz Nopcsa and the dinosaurs that changed science * The scientist who wanted to become King of Albania * Paleontology, espionage, and eccentric genius * The tragic final chapter of Franz Nopcsa's life * The accidental invention of saccharin * How Bubble Wrap went from failed wallpaper to shipping legend * The surprising origin of the Super Soaker * Why Viagra was originally developed for heart disease * Bob Ross, happy accidents, and the value of unexpected discoveries If you love strange history, forgotten inventors, scientific oddities, accidental discoveries, and true stories that are stranger than fiction, this episode belongs in your queue. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Israel's first battle is won as Aaron and Hur hold up Moses' weary arms. Shortly afterward,Moses' father-in-law Jethro confronts another problem: Moses is trying to carry the burdenof leadership alone. For only the second time in the Torah, something is called "not good."Moses needs help. God shows His people that freedom is not meant to be lived in isolationbut in community.

A stranger vanishes into a dead-end Savannah alley, leaving behind a lesson that will last a lifetime. A grieving listener receives possible signs from both her grandmother and beloved dog, while JG recalls the mysterious cab driver who appeared during his family's desperate trip to Boston Children's Hospital—and disappeared before he could be thanked. Also: Ghost the Great Dane and his “trotting farts,” an unexpectedly controversial use for A.1. Sauce, a nature trail shaped like an air freshener, and a listener suggestion involving the horrifying Byford Dolphin decompression accident. Plus, Kat and Jethro prepare for Halloween Quarter and invite the Freak Family to submit their own recorded stories for the annual Halloween special. It's another Inbox of Oddities filled with strange encounters, heartfelt connections, peculiar pets, and the lingering question of whether the signs we ask for may already be all around us. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Share a commentRunning on empty can look like faithfulness until it starts breaking you and the people you're trying to serve. We open Exodus 18 and sit in the dust outside Moses' tent as the line grows longer, the days get heavier, and leadership becomes a one-man bottleneck. Then Jethro shows up, not just with a reunion and kind words, but with the rare mix every leader needs: encouragement, worship, and the courage to say what no one else will.We talk about burnout in ministry and everyday leadership, why “there's a need, so I can't say no” quietly becomes a trap, and how doing everything yourself doesn't actually help people. Jethro names the fallout plainly: Moses is overwhelmed, the community is neglected, and future leaders are overlooked. From there, we pull out a simple job description for spiritual leadership that still cuts through the noise: pray and teach. We dig into why teaching has to connect Scripture to real life, not just special occasions, and why prayer can't be the task we squeeze in after the “real work.”Finally, we unpack what to look for when you delegate: people who fear God, love truth, and live with integrity. That kind of team shares the burden, builds endurance, develops new leaders, and brings peace back to the people. If your calendar is crowded but your essentials are slipping, this is your nudge to reassess. Subscribe for more, share this with a leader who's carrying too much, and leave a review with the line that challenged you most.Learn more about twenty-five years of global impact, and reserve tickets to our gala. https://www.wisdomonline.org/mp/25 Learn more: https://www.wisdomonline.org/Support the show

Share a commentRunning on empty can look like faithfulness until it starts breaking you and the people you're trying to serve. We open Exodus 18 and sit in the dust outside Moses' tent as the line grows longer, the days get heavier, and leadership becomes a one-man bottleneck. Then Jethro shows up, not just with a reunion and kind words, but with the rare mix every leader needs: encouragement, worship, and the courage to say what no one else will.We talk about burnout in ministry and everyday leadership, why “there's a need, so I can't say no” quietly becomes a trap, and how doing everything yourself doesn't actually help people. Jethro names the fallout plainly: Moses is overwhelmed, the community is neglected, and future leaders are overlooked. From there, we pull out a simple job description for spiritual leadership that still cuts through the noise: pray and teach. We dig into why teaching has to connect Scripture to real life, not just special occasions, and why prayer can't be the task we squeeze in after the “real work.”Finally, we unpack what to look for when you delegate: people who fear God, love truth, and live with integrity. That kind of team shares the burden, builds endurance, develops new leaders, and brings peace back to the people. If your calendar is crowded but your essentials are slipping, this is your nudge to reassess. Subscribe for more, share this with a leader who's carrying too much, and leave a review with the line that challenged you most.Learn more about twenty-five years of global impact, and reserve tickets to our gala. https://www.wisdomonline.org/mp/25 Learn more: https://www.wisdomonline.org/Support the show

Who was Jethro in the Bible? Why was Jethro also called Reuel? What role to Jethro have in the life of Moses?

The Mysterious Cave of Ancient Shoes & Georgia Tech's Imaginary Graduate This week on The Box of Oddities, Kat and Jethro uncover one of archaeology's most baffling discoveries: a 5,500-year-old leather shoe found inside Armenia's Areni Cave—along with hundreds of other ancient shoes, a ritual site, and the world's oldest known winery. Why were prehistoric people leaving their footwear behind? Was it practical storage, sacred ritual, or something we've yet to understand? Then, meet George P. Burdell, the fictional Georgia Tech student whose college prank became one of the longest-running hoaxes in American history. For nearly a century, this imaginary engineering student has earned degrees, joined organizations, appeared in official records, and become one of the university's most beloved alumni... without ever attending a single class. Along the way: ancient wine, sheep dung that accidentally preserved history, Sid's inexplicable shoe obsession, and a reminder that some of history's greatest mysteries—and funniest traditions—begin with the smallest, strangest ideas. In this episode: The 5,500-year-old shoe discovered in Armenia's Areni Cave Hundreds of mysterious Copper Age shoes and the theories behind them The world's oldest known winery and its possible ritual significance The incredible legend of George P. Burdell, Georgia Tech's most famous fictional graduate Weird Facts About Eyes If you love archaeology, unsolved mysteries, forgotten history, elaborate practical jokes, and the wonderfully weird, this episode belongs in your ears. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if an advanced industrial civilization existed on Earth millions of years before humans... and every trace of it has been erased? In this episode of The Box of Oddities, Kat and Jethro explore the fascinating Silurian Hypothesis—a real scientific thought experiment that asks whether an ancient technological civilization could have risen, fallen, and disappeared so completely that only faint chemical fingerprints remain in the geological record. From plate tectonics and fossilization to the Anthropocene and mysterious Libyan Desert Glass, it's a mind-bending look at deep time and the unsettling possibility that Earth may have forgotten entire chapters of its own history. Then the conversation takes a delightfully strange turn into the forgotten world of tyromancy—fortune telling with cheese. Discover how people once searched for signs of love, luck, and the future in wheels of cheese, melted fondue, mold patterns, and even hungry mice. Along the way, Kat uncovers other surprisingly common forms of food divination involving eggs, onions, flour, tea leaves, and more. Also included: eerie hospital stories that blur the line between coincidence and the supernatural, plenty of offbeat humor, and the wonderfully bizarre conversations that make The Box of Oddities unlike any other podcast. In this episode: The Silurian Hypothesis explained Could ancient industrial civilizations have existed before humans? Why cities and civilizations disappear over geological time Libyan Desert Glass and ancient mystery Tyromancy: the forgotten art of cheese fortune telling Historic food-based divination traditions Creepy hospital encounters and unexplained stories If you love weird history, unsolved mysteries, strange science, folklore, archaeology, and the delightfully bizarre, welcome to The Box of Oddities. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The inbox of Oddities is overflowing with unforgettable listener stories this week. A terrifying real-life child abduction that ended in a miraculous rescue, eerie Boo Effects that blur the line between coincidence and the unexplained, a ghostly Roman legion mystery solved decades later, and one listener's emotional account of how the Box of Oddities community helped rebuild a life after abuse. Along the way, Kat discovers that nutmeg isn't what most of us think it is, an enormous toad claims ownership of a dog's toy, DNA testing uncovers an astonishing family connection, listeners share strange animal encounters, and Jethro somehow turns kidnapping prevention into a discussion about budget-conscious kidnappers. It's funny, heartfelt, occasionally unsettling, and filled with the wonderfully weird stories that only the Inbox of Oddities can deliver. In this episode: A chilling attempted child kidnapping and dramatic rescue Boo Effects and impossible coincidences The Roman ghost soldiers of York DNA surprises and unexpected family history Nutmeg, rambutan, jackfruit, and international food adventures Giant toads, adorable animals, and listener photos Messages about healing, hope, and finding your own "freak village" If you love true stories, strange coincidences, paranormal mysteries, weird history, and the incredible community behind the Box of Oddities, you'll feel right at home. #InboxOfOddities #BoxOfOddities #TrueStories #Paranormal #GhostStories #WeirdHistory #BooEffect #Unexplained #Podcast #ListenerStories Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when the most isolated lighthouse in the world becomes a floating prison with a corpse... and what if one of history's strangest duels was fought over flower arrangements? In this episode of The Box of Oddities, Kat and Jethro explore two unbelievable tales that prove history is often stranger than fiction. First, journey to the infamous Smalls Lighthouse off the coast of Wales, where lighthouse keeper Thomas Howell found himself trapped for months with the decomposing body of his fellow keeper. Unable to bury the man for fear of being accused of murder, Howell lashed the coffin to the lighthouse railing—only to watch the sea slowly destroy it as storms prevented rescue. It's one of maritime history's most disturbing true stories and the event that forever changed lighthouse staffing around the world. Then, travel to Vienna in 1892, where an aristocratic disagreement over floral arrangements allegedly escalated into one of history's most bizarre confrontations: a topless sword duel between Princess Pauline von Metternich and Countess Anastasia von Kielmansegg. Did two European noblewomen really strip to the waist and settle a decorating dispute with rapiers? Or is the entire affair one of history's most persistent—and entertaining—legends? From haunted seas to scandalous society gossip, this episode is packed with the wonderfully weird stories you've come to expect from The Box of Oddities. In this episode: Smalls Lighthouse, Thomas Howell, Welsh lighthouse tragedy, maritime history, lighthouse keepers, Princess Pauline von Metternich, Countess Anastasia von Kielmansegg, Vienna 1892, historical duels, strange history, bizarre true stories, odd history, folklore, legends, and the wonderfully weird. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Share a commentFailure has a way of making life feel like a desert, silent, exposed, and endless. We lean into three of Scripture's most relatable “blown it” moments and ask a different question than “How did they mess up?” We ask: What did God build in them afterward, and what can He build in us when we're tempted to quit, hide, or numb the guilt?We walk through John Mark's story in Acts, the young helper with every advantage who deserts the mission and becomes a point of sharp disagreement between Paul and Barnabas. From there we widen the lens to the pressure points most of us actually face: fear of ridicule, the ease of keeping quiet about Jesus, and the moment where convenience starts to look like wisdom. It's a practical conversation about Christian perseverance, courage, and why spiritual potential means little without endurance.Then we turn to David, not as a coward but as a man crushed by moral failure, and we sit with the raw honesty of Psalm 32 and the turning point of Psalm 51. Finally, we revisit Moses, trained for leadership yet forced into Midian's obscurity, where self-sufficiency dies and dependence on God is born. A surprising thread ties it all together: God often speaks in the desert through another believer, a Peter, a Jethro, a timely voice you're meant to hear.If you're walking through regret, disappointment, or spiritual dryness, this is a reminder that the desert doesn't have to be the end of your story. Subscribe for more, share this with someone who needs hope, and leave a review so more listeners can find the conversation.Learn more about twenty-five years of global impact, and reserve tickets to our gala. https://www.wisdomonline.org/mp/25 Learn more: https://www.wisdomonline.org/Support the show

Share a commentFailure has a way of making life feel like a desert, silent, exposed, and endless. We lean into three of Scripture's most relatable “blown it” moments and ask a different question than “How did they mess up?” We ask: What did God build in them afterward, and what can He build in us when we're tempted to quit, hide, or numb the guilt?We walk through John Mark's story in Acts, the young helper with every advantage who deserts the mission and becomes a point of sharp disagreement between Paul and Barnabas. From there we widen the lens to the pressure points most of us actually face: fear of ridicule, the ease of keeping quiet about Jesus, and the moment where convenience starts to look like wisdom. It's a practical conversation about Christian perseverance, courage, and why spiritual potential means little without endurance.Then we turn to David, not as a coward but as a man crushed by moral failure, and we sit with the raw honesty of Psalm 32 and the turning point of Psalm 51. Finally, we revisit Moses, trained for leadership yet forced into Midian's obscurity, where self-sufficiency dies and dependence on God is born. A surprising thread ties it all together: God often speaks in the desert through another believer, a Peter, a Jethro, a timely voice you're meant to hear.If you're walking through regret, disappointment, or spiritual dryness, this is a reminder that the desert doesn't have to be the end of your story. Subscribe for more, share this with someone who needs hope, and leave a review so more listeners can find the conversation.Learn more about twenty-five years of global impact, and reserve tickets to our gala. https://www.wisdomonline.org/mp/25 Learn more: https://www.wisdomonline.org/Support the show

The Village Where People Slept for Days and How a DNA Test Solved a 73-Year-Old Missing Child Case. What would you do if people in your town simply... fell asleep without warning? In this edition of The Box of Oddities, Kat and Jethro investigate one of the strangest medical mysteries of the modern era: the "sleeping village" of Kalachi, Kazakhstan, where healthy adults and children suddenly collapsed into days-long sleep, vivid hallucinations, and memory loss. Was it a virus, radiation from abandoned uranium mines, or something even stranger? Then, in honor of Independence Day, we take a quick tour of the world's newest nations and discover just how young some countries really are. Finally, an incredible true story that sounds almost impossible: a six-year-old boy kidnapped from a California park in 1951 is finally identified and reunited with his family more than seventy years later—all because a niece became curious about the results of a consumer DNA test. Mysterious illnesses, forgotten nations, astonishing reunions, and the wonderfully weird true stories that make the world far stranger than fiction... it's another unforgettable trip inside The Box of Oddities. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What do Benjamin Franklin's naked "air baths," George Washington's near-zombie resurrection, and Lyndon B. Johnson's infamous pants phone call have in common? They're all absolutely true... and they're all part of America's wonderfully weird history. In this Fourth of July special, Kat and Jethro celebrate America's 250th anniversary by uncovering the stranger side of the nation's Founding Fathers and presidents. Discover why Benjamin Franklin wrote an essay about flatulence, invented swim fins, refused to patent his inventions, may have fathered numerous children, and once shocked himself while trying to cook a turkey with electricity. Then things get even stranger with the unbelievable story of how doctors nearly attempted to resurrect George Washington using lamb's blood after his death—creating what might have been America's first zombie president. Along the way, you'll hear the legendary (and very real) White House recording of President Lyndon B. Johnson ordering custom pants in unforgettable fashion. From bizarre medical experiments and forgotten presidential oddities to surprising historical facts you probably never learned in school, this patriotic edition of The Box of Oddities proves that truth really is stranger than fiction. If you love weird history, strange true stories, forgotten American legends, unusual biographies, and fascinating historical rabbit holes, this episode is for you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Beneath an ancient house in York, England, an apprentice heating engineer wasn't searching for ghosts—he was installing a boiler. Instead, he claimed to witness a column of weary Roman soldiers marching silently through a stone wall. For decades, skeptics dismissed one bizarre detail of his story... until archaeologists uncovered evidence that made the impossible seem a little more plausible. Was Harry Martindale the victim of a vivid hallucination, or did he glimpse something history can't quite explain? Then, meet one of the most influential innovators you've probably never heard of. Sarah Little Turnbull transformed industrial design by simply paying closer attention to how people actually live. Her observations helped inspire everything from ergonomic products to the cup-shaped respirator that evolved into today's N95 mask. Long before "design thinking" became a buzzword, Turnbull proved that curiosity and compassion could change the world. Along the way, Kat and Jethro celebrate the launch of Super Chomp Summer, explore strange summer phenomena, explain why the Eiffel Tower grows taller in the heat, why goats climb trees in Morocco, and uncover a few surprising facts about the Dog Days of Summer. If you love ghost stories, Roman history, forgotten inventors, fascinating science, archaeology, design, and the wonderfully weird, this episode of The Box of Oddities has something waiting for you. #GhostStories #RomanSoldiers #YorkEngland #Paranormal #AncientRome #SarahLittleTurnbull #N95 #IndustrialDesign #DesignThinking #HistoryPodcast #WeirdHistory #Archaeology #BoxOfOddities #Mystery #Curiosity Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There was a time in America when shipping a dead body by railroad was as routine as sending a trunk of luggage... until somebody misplaced the coffin. In this episode of The Box of Oddities, Kat and Jethro uncover the strange and surprisingly common history of America's "silent passengers"—human remains transported across the country by rail. Discover the newspaper stories of lost coffins, bodies sent to the wrong families, funeral trains delayed by storms, and the unsettling realities of moving the dead before modern embalming. It's a forgotten chapter of railroad history that's equal parts fascinating, unsettling, and absurd. Then Kat takes a detour into one of history's lighter mysteries: Why is Connecticut called the Nutmeg State? Did crafty merchants really sell fake wooden nutmegs? Along the way, you'll discover the surprising origins of state nicknames like the Tar Heel State, the Sooner State, the Badger State, and more—revealing how folklore, history, commerce, and a little creative marketing shaped the identities of the United States. If you love forgotten history, strange true stories, bizarre Americana, railroad oddities, unusual facts, and conversations that wander gloriously off the rails, you've found your people. Because sometimes the weirdest journey... begins after the passengers stop breathing. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What do a piano frozen in the Yukon wilderness and a possible Roman shipwreck off the coast of Brazil have in common? In this episode of Box of Oddities, Kat and Jethro uncover two historical mysteries that challenge what we think we know about the past. First, a strange dark object discovered beneath Arctic ice turns out to be something no one expected: a piano. That discovery leads to the remarkable story of the Klondike Gold Rush and the astonishing number of pianos hauled by hand across treacherous mountain passes into one of the most remote regions on Earth. Why would prospectors drag thousands of pounds of musical instruments through snow, ice, and wilderness in pursuit of gold? Then, the pair dive into one of archaeology's most controversial claims. In the waters of Brazil's Guanabara Bay, ancient Roman-style amphorae were discovered on the seafloor, sparking speculation that Roman sailors may have reached South America more than a thousand years before Columbus. Was it evidence of a lost chapter of world history—or an elaborate deception involving a businessman, reproduction pottery, and a very unusual aging process? Along the way: frontier optimism, buried artifacts, impossible journeys, accidental archaeology, questionable treasure hunters, and the surprisingly emotional reasons humans carry pieces of home into the unknown. If you love forgotten history, unexplained discoveries, archaeological mysteries, strange true stories, the Klondike Gold Rush, Roman artifacts, and the wonderfully bizarre corners of the human experience, this episode belongs in your queue. #BoxOfOddities #KlondikeGoldRush #Archaeology #RomanEmpire #AncientMysteries #GoldRushHistory #HistoryPodcast #WeirdHistory #Unexplained #LostCivilizations #StrangeHistory #OdditiesPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when an entire family turns blue... literally? In this Freak Family Favorites episode of The Box of Oddities, Kat and Jethro revisit one of the most fascinating medical mysteries in American history: the legendary Blue People of Kentucky. Deep in the isolated hills of Appalachia, generations of the Fugate family lived with a rare genetic condition that turned their skin shades of blue ranging from pale sky to deep indigo. The story sounds like folklore, but it's completely true. Discover how a chance genetic inheritance, geographic isolation, and a remarkable medical breakthrough created one of the strangest family histories ever documented. Then, the duo travels to the blistering Atacama Desert of Chile to investigate one of the most controversial archaeological discoveries of the 21st century. A tiny six-inch humanoid skeleton with an elongated skull, unusual rib structure, and unsettlingly human features sparked worldwide claims of extraterrestrial life. Was it proof of aliens? A medical anomaly? Or something even stranger? Follow the twists, scientific investigations, DNA testing, and ethical controversies surrounding the mysterious "Atacama Skeleton" and the shocking truth researchers eventually uncovered. From blue-skinned mountain families to alien-looking desert mummies, this episode explores how reality often proves far stranger than fiction. If you love bizarre history, unexplained mysteries, strange science, medical oddities, archaeology, genetics, UFO controversies, and true stories that sound impossible, this is an episode you won't want to miss. #BoxOfOddities #BluePeopleOfKentucky #AtacamaSkeleton #MedicalMysteries #GeneticDisorders #WeirdHistory #StrangeScience #Archaeology #UFOMysteries #Appalachia #TrueOddities #FreakFamilyFavorites Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of The Box of Oddities, Kat and Jethro climb aboard one of America's most infamous haunted railroad relics: The Death Coach. After a devastating 1943 train collision near Wayland, New York, passengers who survived the impact found themselves trapped inside a railcar filled with superheated steam. The horrifying tragedy claimed dozens of lives and left behind a passenger coach that still exists today. Visitors, volunteers, and paranormal investigators claim the coach is haunted by footsteps, voices, screams, and shadowy apparitions connected to one of the most disturbing railroad disasters in American history. Then the journey takes a very different turn with the mysterious medieval carvings known as Sheela na Gigs. Found on churches, castles, and ancient structures throughout Ireland and the British Isles, these strange stone figures have puzzled historians for centuries. Were they warnings against lust? Protective symbols meant to ward off evil? Survivals of ancient fertility traditions? Or something else entirely? The answer remains one of history's most enduring mysteries. From ghostly railroad legends and historical tragedies to medieval symbolism, forgotten folklore, and the strange ways humans assign meaning to the past, this episode explores the places where history, mystery, and the unexplained collide. This Box contains: The Death Coach, haunted trains, railroad disasters, Wayland train wreck, paranormal history, ghost stories, Sheela na Gig, medieval mysteries, Irish folklore, ancient symbols, haunted locations, strange history, and unexplained phenomena. Because the world is stranger than fiction. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Mississippi River has always carried more than cargo. For generations, river workers reported a chilling sight emerging from the fog: coffins drifting silently downstream. The stories became part of Mississippi folklore, but the truth behind them may be even stranger. Floods regularly washed away riverside cemeteries, steamboat disasters scattered victims for miles, and entire communities were forced to recover the dead from the riverbanks. In this episode of The Box of Oddities, Jethro explores the real history behind the legend of the Floating Coffins of the Mississippi and the deadly world of nineteenth-century steamboat travel. Then, Kat investigates some of the longest prison sentences ever handed down in modern history. From inmates who spent more than seventy years behind bars to criminals sentenced to thousands—or even hundreds of thousands—of years in prison, you'll learn why courts impose punishments that no human being could ever fully serve. The Mississippi River's floating coffins, steamboat disasters, prison sentences measured in centuries, bizarre nineteenth-century slang, and more weirdness from history await in this episode of The Box of Oddities. #BoxOfOddities #MississippiRiver #FloatingCoffins #SteamboatDisasters #RiverGhostStories #PrisonHistory #TrueCrimeHistory #WeirdHistory #AmericanFolklore #LongestPrisonSentences Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Rome's decline sounds uncomfortably familiar as Al, Zach, John Luke, and Christian compare the empire's political chaos, devalued currency, and hunger for centralized power to warning signs in America today. The guys discuss why Christianity has always threatened governments that want ultimate control, since believers answer to God before the state. Al connects Diocletian's leadership reforms to the biblical wisdom Jethro gave Moses, and they wrestle with the difficult duty to pray for leaders even when Christians strongly disagree with them. Need a refresher on Ancient Christianity? Check out the previous episode on this topic at https://youtu.be/vP3u0pQP74c?si=cnpxf7EFOI2nMmnQ Today's conversation is about Lesson 8 of Ancient Christianity taught by visiting Hillsdale Professor of History Kenneth Calvert. Take the course with us at no cost to you! Sign up at http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/. More about Ancient Christianity: Christ entered the world during the reign of Caesar Augustus. The tensions between Christianity and the Roman Empire shaped the daily practice of the Christian faith and led many Romans to distrust and persecute the early Christians. But Christianity also benefitted from the Roman world. And when Rome collapsed in the West, Christianity provided the hope for preserving civilization. In this free, eleven-lecture course, Professor Kenneth Calvert will explore: How the Jewish, Greek, and Roman cultures all contributed to preparing the world to hear the Gospel. Why many Romans distrusted and persecuted the early Christians. The inspiring stories of Christ, His apostles, and faithful ones throughout the first four centuries of Christianity. The arguments of key early Christian apologists—Ignatius, Irenaeus, Justin, Athanasius, and more—who defended and defined the Christian faith amidst the animosity of the Roman world. The conversion of Constantine and how he brought stability to Rome, and how the rivalry between his sons almost returned Rome to paganism. How Augustine's writings helped preserve the message of Christianity during the collapse of the Roman Empire in the West. You will discover the uncertainties, trials, and triumphs of the earliest Christians as they confronted controversies within the faith and persecutions from outside it. Join us today to discover the improbable and miraculous story of Christianity. Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Chapters 00:00 Al's Awkward Haircut Dilemma 05:30 Old-School Barbers & “Bughead” Trauma 11:04 Rome's Money Problems Sound Familiar 16:01 Why Rome Saw Christianity as a Threat 19:08 Freedom Without God Starts to Devour Itself 24:28 The Wisdom of Shared Power 30:03 Galerius Brings Peace, Heresy Follows 36:18 Wrapping Your Brain Around the Trinity 40:16 The Church's Role in the Secular World — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices