21 Hats Podcast

This week, in Episode 252, David Barnett, Mel Gravely, and Kate Morgan discuss a somewhat unusual approach to succession, which is to not sell the business. Basically, it's about taking a step back from leadership while maintaining ownership, and both Kate and especially Mel are moving in this direction. The approach can pay off financially in part because businesses often are worth more to the owner than they would be to a buyer. Why is that? As David explains, the business that the buyer buys isn't really the same business that the owner sells: “If you've owned the business for a long time,” he says, “the balance sheet is probably pretty strong. You've had time to earn money, pay down debts. You've got a good equity position. This makes the business strong, and it makes it better able to weather storms. If I were to come along and buy Mel's business, I would come together on a price, and I would pay Mel. But a good chunk of that money would probably be borrowed. Now, I would have a much weaker balance sheet than what Mel enjoys today. And a big chunk of the cash flow that he currently enjoys, I would end up giving to my bank.” Of course, this approach to succession does have some challenging elements, including finding someone to run the business. Plus: We also discuss whether it's possible to sell a solopreneur business.

This week, Gene Marks tells us why he's skeptical of corporate CEOs like Amazon's Andy Jassy who have started telling employees that they are likely to lose their jobs as the company continues to adopt tools that use artificial intelligence. Gene thinks CEOs who blame AI for corporate layoffs are really covering for bad management. In fact, he thinks anyone who is already replacing employees with AI is a fool. On the other hand, Gene tells us he's incorporating AI tools into almost every aspect of his business, and he gives us some examples.

This week, in episode 251, we meet Dan Carmody, who has gained an unusual perspective on what it takes to build a business in the United States. Dan has started and built his own businesses. He's run community development organizations that have worked to support the growth of other local businesses. And until January, he was CEO of the Eastern Market in Detroit, which is one of the last great public markets in the country and has seen a remarkable number of businesses start, thrive, and even go national. On top of that, he's also traveled to other countries to see how they support small enterprises. His conclusion? We're doing it wrong. This may seem jarring given the story we like to tell ourselves about the American Dream, but as Dan explains, there are some things we could learn from other countries.

This week, Victor Hwang tells us that his organization, Right to Start, has big plans for America's upcoming 250th birthday. Spurred largely by the widespread sense that the American Dream has lost some of its luster, Victor and Right to Start are launching a campaign to turn our semiquincentennial into a celebration of America's entrepreneurial roots and a push to remove the barriers that make it harder than it should be to start and build a business. One key focus: finding ways to make it easier for businesses to raise capital. You can learn more here.

This week, in episode 250, we're joined by special guest Alan Pentz, who recently stepped back from his government-contracting business to start the Owner Institute, which draws on lessons he learned the hard way to help business owners scale their businesses. In his new role, Alan has immersed himself in the world of generative AI, and he's come to some intriguing conclusions, one of which is that AI will eliminate most B-to-B agencies—marketing agencies, public relations agencies, professional services firms. Why is that? Because, Alan says, businesses will no longer be willing to pay agencies retainers of $5,000 or $10,000 a month once they realize they can get similar or even superior work from an AI chatbot. “In general,” Alan says, “most technology waves end up with a few big winners, and most people are just roadkill.” To explore the theory that agencies are likely to be roadkill, we invited Jaci Russo, owner of a marketing agency, and Sarah Segal, owner of a public relations agency, to have a conversation with Alan. Spoiler alert: There were no tears, no threats, and no insults.

On the one hand, Gene Marks tells us this week that the GOP tax bill that has passed the House and is being debated in the Senate contains a lot of elements that should cheer business owners. Specifically, the pass-through deduction would get extended and increased, the capital-equipment deduction would go back to being 100-percent deductible in the first year, and the research-and-development deduction would also go back to being fully deductible in the first year. On the other hand, Gene believes the Big Beautiful Bill is going to be a big ugly problem for business owners. But I'll let him explain.

This week, in Episode 249, we bring you a conversation recorded at our recent 21 Hats Live event in Ann Arbor, Michigan, with Ari Weinzweig, co-founder of one of America's most influential small businesses. Starting 43 years ago with a highly successful college town delicatessen that they could have replicated all over the country (including for Disney), Ari and co-founder Paul Saginaw have instead built Zingerman's Community of Businesses, a collection of 12 Ann Arbor-based, collaboratively run businesses each with its own leadership and ownership structure. Together, these businesses produce $80 million a year in revenue. They include a bakery; a coffee company; two event spaces; a roadhouse; a Korean restaurant; a mail-order operation; an international food-tour business; a publishing house that publishes, among others, Ari Weinzweig; and a training center—ZingTrain—that has shared the Zingerman's approach to business building with more than 10,000 businesses.In 2003, Bo Burlingham pronounced Zingerman's “The Coolest Small Company in America.” Bo's article became the foundation of Small Giants, his book about companies that are more intent on being great than being big. The last thing we did at 21 Hats Live was to sit down with Ari to talk about that philosophy. In his passionate responses to our many questions—responses, I should note, that include a few F-bombs—Ari explains how the Zingerman's team decides whether to start a new business, how he and Paul made (and re-made) an especially difficult decision about expanding, how he and Paul have managed to sustain their partnership for more than four decades, how they chose a succession plan, how they know if they're charging enough, why for many years Ari's mother continued to believe he was a failure, and a whole lot more.

This week, Sahra Halpern, who is CEO of the Business Consortium Fund, talks about a type of lender that is not particularly well known or well understood even among business owners. The Business Consortium Fund is a CDFI, or community development financial institution. Traditionally, many CDFIs, including Halpern's, have sought to serve underrepresented business owners who have struggled to get a traditional bank loan. In the current political climate, however, CDFIs are looking to reach a broader audience. In our conversation, Halpern talks about how CDFI lending differs from bank lending and what types of business should consider approaching a CDFI.

This week, in Episode 248, we bring you a taste of what we experienced at the recent 21 Hats Live event in Ann Arbor, where we did a deep dive into a challenge confronting Mars Chapman, owner of Casey's New Orleans Snowballs, a snowcone business in Austin, Texas. Mars, who is 36, bought the business from his parents and also inherited from them a somewhat laidback approach to ownership. The business has been operating for 29 years, but it has generally run only eight months of the year, which has been enough, thus far, to support a comfortable lifestyle for its owners. But Mars, whose wife, Page, works for a nonprofit and who is pregnant with their first child, has begun to question whether his current approach will be enough to support a family. This is another in our series of 21 Hats Brainstorms—we used to call them Fish Bowls—in which we pair an owner facing a challenge with a group of entrepreneurs eager to help. We ask questions, break into small groups to exchange ideas, and then report back. Sometimes—as I personally experienced at last year's 21 Hats Live event—the comments and suggestions can be challenging, even a little painful to hear. But they're always constructive.

This week, Lance Tyson, founder of the Tyson Group sales consultancy, talks about how he's using generative AI in his own business along with his suggestions for owners who are just getting started with AI. Among his suggestions: ask ChatGPT how best to use ChatGpt. Lance also talks about how salespeople can best navigate a business environment struggling with tariffs, uncertainty, rising prices, and talk of recession. One tip: don't just accept an email rejection. Try to get them on the phone.

This week, in Episode 247, we welcome a new regular, Kate Morgan, who joins the podcast along with Paul Downs and Jay Goltz. Kate is the CEO and founder of Boston Human Capital Partners, which provides recruiting and HR services, mostly to other small businesses. After a very difficult stretch caused by the pandemic, Kate's business has been growing again – but Paul and Jay think she's leaving money on the table. They think she needs to raise her prices. “I mean,” responds Kate, “we're growing in an industry that we're seeing shrinking right now, and so it's one of these things: Do I want to scare the squirrels and jump up our prices? That's where I've been struggling.” Plus: Are HR people supposed to protect the employees or the business? And after having to lay off a third of his workforce, Paul gives us an encouraging update on how his business is doing.

This week, John Arensmeyer, our man in Washington, reports on what small business owners need and what they are likely to get from Republicans and Democrats. The issues -- tariffs, access to capital, taxes, health care -- are tricky, but John says there have been some recent examples of legislators coming together to support small businesses.

This week, in Episode 246, we meet Ben Knepler, who, along with his True Places co-founder Nelson Warley, came up with an idea for an outdoor chair that they believe could be a game-changer. They liked the idea so much that they quit their corporate jobs, they raised money, they borrowed money—putting their own homes at risk—they fought through the pandemic, they found a manufacturer in China, they launched on Kickstarter, they found another manufacturer in Cambodia, and then they ran smack into the brick wall of President Trump's second-term tariffs. Or, as George Harrison almost put it, “If you try to sit, I'll tax your … sturdy, portable, folding chair that could create a whole new category of high-end outdoor products except you'll probably have to try to sell them in some other country … ‘cause I'm the tariff man.”

This week, Gene Marks -- normally a fan of automating anything that can be automated — says it's too soon to think about turning important tasks over to artificial intelligence bots, mostly because they're still making too many mistakes. In fact, Gene cites a survey of business leaders who said they came to regret offloading employees in favor of AI. In many cases, those leaders wound up trying to re-hire their employees. Plus: Gene also talks about how businesses using AI can get into regulatory trouble if they're not careful.

This week, in Episode 245, a new regular, David Barnett, joins the podcast along with Jaci Russo and William Vanderbloemen. David, who has been a guest on the podcast before, helps people buy and sell businesses—but, as he explains, he's not a business broker. He's found a different business model. David, Jaci, and William discuss why it's so hard to sell a business, what owners can do to make their businesses more attractive to buyers, and why it can be in everyone's interest for sellers to accept an earnout. Plus: Jaci talks about why she used a recruiter to help her hire a business development person and why she ended up choosing someone who checked none of the boxes she initially thought most important. “I thought I needed some hotshot East Coast, West Coast, big city dude who came in with all the slick talk,” she tells us. Instead, she found her winner in rural Alabama. 

This week, Rob Levin, co-founder and chairman of WorkBetterNow, talks about why he sees business owners—despite the uncertain economy—still struggling to fill key roles. He also discusses the importance of creating a culture by design, how owners can manage their profiles on Glassdoor, and what he thinks of Gen Z employees. Plus: Rob explains how he's been infusing AI into all aspects of running his business.

This week, in Episode 244, Jennifer Kerhin, Jaci Russo, and Sarah Segal talk about how they've been using ChatGPT. Jennifer has deputized the AI chatbot as a key advisor, feeding it all kinds of performance data and soliciting its analysis before making hiring, financial, and strategic decisions. Recently, she asked it to identify her biggest blind spots as a CEO. Five seconds later, it spat out five answers with detailed explanations and suggestions. And what did Jennifer think of the feedback? “It was right on,” she tells us. “I mean, it was totally, absolutely true.” We even brought ChatGPT into our conversation in real time, asking it whether Jaci had hired the right business development person, whether Sarah had been fully prepared two years ago to buy back her PR firm, and what's the best podcast for small business owners. Plus: while we were talking, Jaci asked ChatGPT to evaluate the performance of her co-founder and spouse, MIchael. Let's just say, it does have some concerns.

This week, Gene Marks highlights some recent tech developments, including: Quickbooks is selling a lifetime version of its software for just $250. Microsoft has reintroduced its somewhat controversial Recall AI tool, which captures and indexes screenshots of user activity every three seconds—a function that is intended to improve cybersecurity but that has raised some interesting questions. Plus: Gene explains how—if you have the time and money—you can now connect the various software platforms you use and turn them into a smart AI assistant.

This week, in Episode 243, Liz Picarazzi tells Sarah Segal that she's taking another pass at finding a domestic fabricator. Maybe it's wishful thinking, Liz says, but she's hoping that now that her business is more established, she just might find an American factory that wants to partner with a growing business and would be eager to help her re-shore her manufacturing. She's also decided she's going to keep speaking out about the tariffs despite the hate mail she's been getting: “I'm not going to be ashamed of manufacturing in Asia,” she tells us. “I had my reasons, and they were very good reasons.” Plus: Sarah talks about how she's been using AI, including to create her own GPTs, which help her promote her clients. She's also found a software platform she loves that makes it easier to find and file requests for proposals. 

But not every business knows how and where to tell it? This week, Sarah Segal talks through what business owners should know about public relations: How can they get better at explaining what they do? How can they figure out what others will find interesting about their business? Should they share their story themselves or reach out to a journalist? If they decide to reach out to a journalist, should they do it themselves or hire a PR person to do it? If they decide to hire a PR person, how much should it cost?

This week, in Episode 242, Jay Goltz and Lena McGuire talk about an expense a lot of business owners may not even realize they're paying. When former employees collect unemployment, they get a check from the government, but then their former employer gets docked. It can add up to real money, and that's likely to become a bigger issue if the economy deteriorates. Of course, as Jay and Lena discuss, one way to keep your unemployment insurance as low as possible is to do a better job hiring. Jay and Lena also talk about whether it ever makes sense to rehire someone you've had to fire. Plus: With Lena's clients and potential clients putting on the brakes, she's using this slow period as an opportunity to improve her systems. She's hoping to avoid a mistake she made last time when she built a business that she was unable to sell.

This week, Gene Marks offers some suggestions for how businesses can survive President Trump's trade war. Those suggestions include exploring free-trade zones, raising prices strategically, scouring the world for alternative suppliers, and getting out of China. Despite all of the disruption and upheaval, Gene continues to believe that the long-term gain will be worth the short-term pain.

This week, in a conversation recorded on March 27—shortly before Liberation Day, the day Donald Trump announced his so-called reciprocal tariffs—Liz Picarazzi told Shawn Busse and Jaci Russo what it was like to get her most recent tariff bill for a shipment of trash enclosures from China. “I knew what it was going to be, because I had calculated it,” she says, “but to actually see it on paper was terrifying.” And of course it's only going to get worse now. In our conversation, we discuss a couple of points that bear emphasis: One, Liz tried everything she could think of to find a way to manufacture her products in the U.S. It hasn't been economically viable in the past, and it's unlikely to become viable any time soon. And two, Liz wonders—if these tariffs really are intended to bring manufacturing back to the U.S.—why isn't some of the tariff money being directed toward supporting that transition? Plus: it's been widely reported that only a tiny percentage of women business owners surpass a million dollars in annual revenue. As it happens, Jaci and Liz have both done it, but why is it so rare?

This week, John Arensmeyer, founder and CEO of Small Business Majority, talks about the unprecedented crisis confronting small businesses. At the same time their business models are being upended by President Trump's tariffs, business owners are also watching their support infrastructure get decimated by budget cuts. John talks about what owners can do to hunker down, to survive, and to make sure their voices are heard.

This week, in episode 240, Paul Downs tells Jaci Russo and Sarah Segal about laying off a third of his workforce. “Here's the problem in a nutshell,” he says. “Last year, January to March, we sold $1.356 million. This year, January to March: $680,000. March is on track to be the worst month I've had since I started taking records.” Paul also tells the owners that he used to have a rainy-day fund for such occasions, but he used it to renovate his house. He does think the layoffs and other cash savings have put him in a strong enough position to hang in there until business picks up. “We're getting calls,” he says, “we're just not getting orders.” He's also trying out a digital marketing service that can identify and contact anyone who spends even just a few seconds on his website. Plus: Paul tells us that sometimes, when forced to lay off people, you learn things about your operation that you might not otherwise have known—like that you've been overpaying your sales tax by at least $30,000 a year for quite some time. 

The problem, says David Barnett, who helps people buy and sell businesses, is that if we all hang on to our cash, we will definitely have a recession. David, who's based in Canada, also talks about how the current disruption looks from north of the border, what advice he's giving to people trying to buy or sell businesses, and where there might be opportunities lurking within the uncertainty.

In this week's bonus episode, Dylan Jones shares his entrepreneurial journey, which includes serving in the Air Force, a Master's degree in business analytics, a failed software business, and a brand new consumer packaged goods business that draws on his knowledge of military working dogs—most importantly that it can be a challenge to keep military dogs (and pets) hydrated. Jones came up with a solution and started selling it at farmers markets where he would simply announce, “Hey, I have Gatorade for dogs.” That drove interest and sales, but not enough to make money. And when his wife delivered their second child, Jones started thinking about maybe selling out his inventory and looking for a job. But then, at one of the last farmers markets he planned to attend, he ran into an investor. That led to a conversation, an investment, a reformulation, a rebrand as Lyx, and a product that is now rolling out with big aspirations, especially for a solopreneur. As Jones puts it, “We want to be the Kleenex or the Google or the Apple of dog hydration.”

This week, five years after Covid arrived and as we find ourselves in another period of dramatic uncertainty, Jennifer Kerhin, Lena McGuire, and Sarah Segal talk about the advances their businesses might never have made had it not been for the pandemic, from the technology they use, to the people they employ, to the systems they've created. “It was very scary early on,” says Jennifer, “but it was transformational.” Plus: Do you hire full-time employees in anticipation of more business or when the new business is in hand? And Sarah asks what she should do when a new client signs a contract and her agency goes through all of the preliminary onboarding work only to have the client walk away. Lena's suggestion? Review your cancellation policy, but she also tells us: “My business is 100 percent up-front. I get paid, and then I do the work.”

This week, Tracy Bech, co-author of the 60 Minute CFO, tells us that for a surprising number of business owners, the answer is no, their financial statements for last year have not yet been prepared. And that's a problem, especially in a year with so much change and so much uncertainty, because it means those businesses have been flying blind for much or all of the first quarter. Many of these owners, Tracy tells us, think that so long as they have cash in their checking account, they're okay, but that can be a dangerous way to run a business.

This week, in Episode 238, Mel Gravely tells Shawn Busse and Jay Goltz that he believes we will eventually find out that the U.S. economy has already slipped into a recession. The funny thing about recessions is that they can start and even end before the GDP numbers make it official, which leads us into a conversation about what businesses can do to prepare for a possible recession. Mel, for example, says his team is checking in on everyone and everything: suppliers, customers, and employees. We also discuss why a lot of pricing models no longer work, why some businesses have never fully recovered from the pandemic, and how Mel turned around a facilities-management business that was losing $1 million a year. Plus: the owners discuss the relative merits of planning to fund your retirement by investing in a 401(k) vs. by selling your business.

This week, Gene Marks explains why he thinks business owners should be patient. Gene says that whatever economic pain they may be experiencing right now will be worth it in the long run, and that's because he believes President Trump is taking necessary steps to fix the economy and level the international-trade playing field, which will greatly benefit small businesses over time. (Podcast host's note: I do have a few questions for Gene about that.)

This week, in episode 237, Jaci Russo tells William Vanderbloemen that she's a little surprised, given all of the uncertainty in the air, how well her marketing business is holding up. Marketing, as we all know, is often the first thing businesses pull back on. Jaci says her strong results may have something to do with the changes she's made in the way her agency closes sales. We also get Jaci's and William's takes on the conversation we've been having about whether owners should consider their employees' personal circumstances when making HR decisions. But our main topic today is weightier than usual: William's wife and co-founder Adrienne recently received a cancer diagnosis and has begun treatment. Long-time listeners may recall that William has spoken in past episodes about his efforts to make sure the business can run without him. “And oh my goodness,” he tells us, “how thankful I am that we started that process so long ago.”

This week, Ami Kassar talks about why his company, MultiFunding—despite all of the talk about chaos and uncertainty—has been overwhelmed by businesses looking for help getting funding to grow. We also talk about what the Biden SBA got wrong about small business lending, what the Trump administration is likely to do with the SBA, and the important distinction between loan fraud and bad lending policy.

This week, in episode 236, Shawn Busse, Jay Goltz, and Liz Picarazzi talk about the uncertainty coming out of Washington and the stress it's putting on their businesses. Liz, for example, has had to rethink her supply chain and her pricing on an almost daily basis as the tariff situation continues to evolve. Both she and Shawn believe they've lost potential clients who've been spooked by the uncertainty. The three owners are figuring out ways to cope, but what they find most galling is that none of this had to happen. “It's like a manufactured recession,” says Jay. Plus: We also talk about Paul Downs' recent comments that when he had to decide which employees to lay off, he took into consideration personal circumstances such as who just had a kid and who put a down payment on a house. That's a natural reaction, but is it a good idea? Or is it trying to play God?

This week, John Arensmeyer, CEO of Small Business Majority, assesses what he sees happening in Washington. Arensmeyer, who recently took a group of business owners to Capitol Hill where they shared their concerns with Democrats and Republicans alike, says the chaos and uncertainty President Trump has unleashed are a disaster. Along with the tariffs and indications that the economy is slowing, Arensmeyer notes that the proposed cuts to the ACA and Medicaid -- while not generally seen as a business issue -- will have a bigger impact on small businesses than many realize. Plus: with the conversation about renewing the 2017 Trump tax cuts gaining steam, Arensmeyer makes an appeal that will surprise some to scrap the 20-percent deduction for pass-through organizations. He notes that 73 percent of the deduction's benefits go to just 4.5 percent of pass-through businesses. Instead, he proposes creating a standard deduction that would help far more small businesses.

This week, in episode 235, Jay Goltz, Lena McGuire, and William Vanderbloemen talk about their best days as business owners and their worst days. Not surprisingly, it's the worst days that often remain the most vivid—both for the pain they inflict and the lessons they bestow. For Lena, it was the day she felt so exhausted and overwhelmed that she knew she had reached her breaking point and had to do something different. For William, it was when the pandemic hit and he had to lay off almost half of his staff in one day, over Zoom. And for Jay, it was realizing that several young employees he'd tried to lift up were just not going to make it. Of course, the most inspiring part of these stories is what the owners did to learn from them and to rise above them. And then there's the day Lena returned from spending most of this past January unplugged to find that a whole bunch of things had fallen into place during her absence: “My business,” she tells us, “was running without me for the first time in my life. It felt so good.”

This week, Gene Marks suggests it's time to take a look at whether there's still a need for the Small Business Administration. Gene, who thinks the SBA has ignored its core market, would shift the agency's disaster loans to FEMA and its smallbiz lending to the Commerce Department and get rid of most of the other programs -- programs he says most of the business owners he knows are only vaguely aware of and rarely if ever use.

This week, in episode 234, Paul Downs tells Lena McGuire that, because his business has not picked up, he has had to lay off two employees. Paul explains how he chose which employees to let go, including to what extent he considered who has just had a kid and who just put a down payment on a house. We also talk about whether Paul should start experimenting with different ways to attract business or whether he should continue to do what's worked in the past and try to ride it out. And then there's this: Paul has managed to do what so many owners strive to do, which is to take himself out of the day-to-day operation of his business. But what does that mean when there's very little business coming in? How should he be spending his time now? Plus: Lena and Paul respond to a small business subreddit post from a business owner who quit a comfortable job to pursue the idea he just couldn't get out of his head. Now, he vacillates between thinking his business is going to be huge and thinking he's made the dumbest mistake of his life, and he wants to know if anyone else has experienced that kind of doubt. I think we know the answer to that one.

This week, at a moment when a lot of businesses are confronting chaos and uncertainty, Shawn Busse talks about how he and Kinesis survived the Great Recession, which was primarily by talking to business owners to better understand their needs and pain points. Shawn's advice? Create a process to talk to both your existing customers and your dream customers on a regular basis. Ask them open-ended questions, including Shawn's favorite: What would you do if you could wave a magic wand and make anything happen?

This week, in episode 233, we brought in a tax expert, Juliann Rowe of CRI Simple Numbers, to explain everything Liz Picarazzi, Jaci Russo, and Sarah Segal ever wanted to know about tax (but weren't sure whom to ask). For example, should owners run their own compensation through payroll? Well, maybe, maybe not. We quickly learned that the answer for Sarah is different from the answer for Liz, which is why a lot of owners get this one wrong. Among the other issues we cover: Isn't it easier for owners to pay themselves through payroll so they don't have to worry about paying quarterly estimates? Can the owner take a draw to cover her income tax payment? If the owner isn't running her own compensation through payroll, how much can she contribute to her 401(k)? Is it even a good idea for owners to tie up their money in a retirement account? What's the best way for an internal bookkeeper and an external CPA to work together? And also, why did Liz, Jaci, and Sarah ask me to bring in a tax expert who is a woman? I kind of knew the answer to that one, but I decided to ask anyway.

This week, Gene tells us that he's been spending too much time doing and not enough time thinking. So he's made a plan to free up some time to focus on the more important, big picture issues that sometimes get lost in the day-to-day. How will he free up the time? By getting out of the office more, by leaning more into tech, and by being more deliberate about how much time he spends with customers. Plus: Gene also shares a few highlights (and lowlights) from a Microsoft AI trade show -- including the Microsoft employees who don't trust their own AI.

This week, in episode 232, Paul Downs tells Shawn Busse and Jay Goltz why he isn't sleeping and why he has stopped paying himself. After having his best year ever in 2024, Paul has seen his inquiries fall precipitously. His backlog of work is dwindling, and he's concluded he needs to take some painful steps. “I'm coming to the realization,” he tells us, “that I need to do something that involves reducing staff.” Paul's not sure why his business is off, but he suspects it may have something to do with the chaos in Washington. He also tells us that the big marketing initiative he undertook a couple of years ago, when he decided to try to reach a slightly different target market, has yet to pay off the way he'd hoped. But he hasn't given up on it. Plus: We also address an increasingly common issue for business owners: What do you do when employees come to work high?

This week, having long encouraged small business owners to support President Trump's pro-business agenda, Gene Marks says those policies are likely to produce a tough year for owners. In a conversation recorded shortly after the president announced that tariffs on Canada, Mexico, and China are about to take effect, Gene tells us that he thinks business owners are too optimistic about the immediate impact of the Trump policies. In the year ahead, Gene expects those policies to produce change, uncertainty, and pain. That said, he still supports the policies.

This week, in episode 231, special guest David Barnett, who started helping owners buy and sell businesses in 2008, offers some guidance on an often-misunderstood sales process. Early on, David was a business broker. “I sold over three dozen companies for other people,” he tells us, “and it was very interesting and exciting. It was also a terrible business.” So he changed business models but has continued to do pretty much the same work. As a result, he's amassed a lot of first-hand knowledge, much of which he shares in our conversation, including: why many owners fail to think of their business as an asset, why sellers shouldn't be too quick to reject earnouts, why buyers should consider making multiple offers for the same business, how buyers can protect against the post-purchase loss of important customers, why businesses are selling for less than they were a couple of years ago, why there may be a smarter way to buy a business than by scouring business-for-sale websites, and why there really isn't a true market for buying and selling small businesses.

This week, John Arensmeyer—CEO of Small Business Majority and our man in Washington—stops by to talk about the Trump administration's first week and what it means for business owners. It's very early of course, but the administration is moving quickly on many fronts and some issues, John tells us, have businesses in his network concerned. Not surprisingly, those issues include tariffs and immigration. We also talk about the fate of TikTok and this week's confirmation hearing for SBA nominee Kelly Loeffler.

This week, in episode 230, Liz Picarazzi tells Paul Downs and Sarah Segal that after a year of anxiety, she's eager to find out what Donald Trump is really going to do about tariffs. Whatever it is, she thinks she's prepared enough options to survive. “If your tax rate went from 11 percent to 60 percent,” she says, “I think most of us would be pretty freaked out, and I am, but I'm a little bit less so because of this work that we've done to be ready.” Paul, meanwhile, thinks there's some chance his business could benefit from the tariffs—although he's far more focused on his business' very slow start to 2025. “It's a little bit scary, frankly,” he tells us. And Sarah has been dealing with the pain of having to let one staffer go and the disappointment of having one of her senior people choose to go. 

Last week on Dashboard, Shawn Busse said he thinks that trying to make your business discoverable on AI bots is “a fool's errand.” So, this week, I invited Sean Campbell, CEO of Cascade Insights, a market research firm, to offer an opposing view. In our conversation, Sean talks about what businesses should be thinking about and doing to prepare for the not-too-distant day when most people turn to a generative AI tool like ChatGPT to find products and services.

This week, in episode 229, Jay Goltz, Jaci Russo, and William Vanderbloemen discuss their experiences bringing in outside consultants to review their business operations. Before the holidays, Lou Mosca, who runs American Management Services, offered to have his team take a look at any of the businesses owned by the regulars on this podcast. Jaci took Lou up on the offer, and she shares here what she learned. Jay declined the offer, and he explains why he declined it. William, meanwhile, has had two experiences with consultants that went well—and one he won't talk about. Plus: The three owners assess what they think the coming mix of regulatory changes, tax cuts, increased tariffs, and mass deportations might mean for their businesses. They also offer their views of the state laws that forbid businesses to ask job candidates about their salary histories. “I'm sorry,” William says, “but if you believe what people tell you when you say, ‘Tell me how much you're making,' you need to stop.”

For business owners, the challenges of digital marketing seem to just get bigger. PIck a platform, any platform: the odds of success have gotten smaller and smaller. Even TikTok, where many small businesses have built followings, may not survive the month. So what's a business owner to do? This week, Shawn Busse offers an alternative. First of all, Shawn does not believe that figuring out how to be discovered on AI bots is the answer. “I think that's a fool's errand,” he says. Instead of focusing on channels and tactics, he encourages owners to tell their story and build a brand. That's not a simple task, but Shawn shares an impressive case study of an organization that, in his words, is “making its own weather.”

In this week's bonus episode, David Billstrom and Matt Raker, two business leaders who have played important roles in Western North Carolina's attempt to recover from Hurricane Helene, talk about what we're still figuring out about disaster recovery. The world tends to move on pretty quickly after an event, but the economic recovery can drag on for years. And it can be especially devastating for smaller businesses. The data from other catastrophic storms, David tells us, suggest that more than half of the small businesses in the area could be gone within a year. And of course those odds are not improved when insurance companies find ways not to pay claims and when government takes too long to respond. As you'll hear, at the time we recorded the conversation in mid-December, the U.S. Congress still had not appropriated funds to help. That did finally happen at the end of December, but it's still tempting to ask: Shouldn't we be getting better at this? 

This week, in episode 228, Lena McGuire—in her first appearance as a regular on this podcast—tells Paul Downs and Jaci Russo about her plans to turn her hobby, remodeling homes, into a real business. In just her third full-time year of building Spóca Kitchen & Bath, Lena says she has already experienced both a quick rise in revenue and then a surprising decline, a decline she attributes mostly to marketing issues. One of those issues, she says, is that she refreshed her website and it started producing more prospects—but fewer qualified prospects. That said, Lena is off to an impressive start, having targeted a well-defined niche, having created a clear process to connect homeowners and contractors, and having demonstrated both a real need for her services and an ability to learn from her mistakes. “I don't look at failure as failing,” she says in a conversation we recorded in December. Plus: Paul tries to explain why his revenue surged 50 percent in 2024. Now there's a problem we'd all like to have.