21 Hats Podcast

When Eugene Khayman first got involved with Million Dollar Sellers, it was essentially a support group for entrepreneurs building businesses on Amazon. Back then, the opportunity seemed almost limitless. Today, ecommerce feels a lot more complicated. Competition is tougher. Customer acquisition is more expensive. And sellers have many options beyond Amazon. At the same time, Khayman believes Amazon itself has changed—and not for the better. In a recent post on X, he argued that Amazon's growing fees are “destroying the marketplace it created.” He's now leading a campaign called Save Our Sellers, aimed at pushing back on policies that many third-party sellers believe are squeezing the businesses that helped make Amazon dominant in the first place.In this conversation, Khayman explains what sophisticated ecommerce operators understand that many traditional small businesses still don't, how AI is beginning to reshape online selling, and why building a business on someone else's platform can feel both irresistible and dangerous. We also talk about the tradeoffs between selling through your own website versus chasing visibility on giant platforms—and whether Amazon is still worth it.

Michelle Wyatt has replayed the events in her mind countless times, looking for warning signs she might have missed. But even now, she can't find any. Both employees had passed background checks and drug tests. Both were considered trusted, valued members of the team. And yet, within a span of months, two violent incidents involving employees left Michelle and her company reeling. In this week's conversation, Michelle joins Jay Goltz, who has dealt with employee violence in his own business, and special guest Sandy Kapell, who's made a career leading human resources, to wrestle with a question that haunts a lot of business owners: How much responsibility can you reasonably bear for the actions of your employees?The discussion goes beyond hiring practices and background checks. Michelle talks candidly about the grief her team experienced, the guilt of wondering whether she should have seen something sooner, the relief that the violence didn't occur aboard her riverboat cruise ship, and the unsettling realization that no amount of experience truly prepares you for something like this. “Please stop torturing yourself,” Jay tells Michelle. “From what you've said, there's just nothing you could have done about this. It's part of business, unfortunately.”

Hannah Sandmeyer spent years acquiring ecommerce businesses for an Amazon aggregator, giving her a front-row seat to how deals get done—and what often gets lost in the process. Too many owners, she came to believe, are forced to choose between shutting down their businesses or selling to buyers whose priorities may have little to do with preserving the company, the culture, or the people who built it. So she decided to build an alternative. Hannah is now founder and CEO of Steward Market, which she describes as “the first marketplace for ethical exits.”In this week's Dashboard, she explains what makes an exit “ethical,” why some owners are actively looking for alternatives to private equity, and how Steward Market hopes to connect values-driven sellers with buyers who want to continue what those owners have built—not simply maximize short-term returns. She also explains why the company chose a business model that doesn't rely on taking commissions from deals.

When Kate Morgan started thinking seriously about selling her business, she assumed the big payoff would come at closing. But as she tells David C. Barnett and Paul Downs this week, she's come to understand that the smarter move might be not selling—at least not yet. Why? Because if the business keeps performing and she can gradually remove herself from the day-to-day operations, she may ultimately make more money by continuing to own it. That's partly because, as David explains, small businesses often sell for lower multiples than owners expect. Which means the real value may not be in a clean exit, but in continuing to collect profits while slowly transitioning ownership to key employees. “So you'll be selling the business,” says David, “and you'll be collecting dividends or distributions on top of that. This is one of the most lucrative exits there can be.”Of course, delaying a sale comes with its own risks. Markets change. Businesses cool off. Buyers get nervous. “You have to make the decision and make the sale happen while you've got a full head of steam,” David warns. Wait too long, and the numbers can start sliding in ways that dramatically reduce what buyers are willing to pay.Plus: A Reddit post raises a brutal management challenge: What's the best way to lay off a relative? “It really can't affect your decision,” says Paul. “Because if it needs to be done, it needs to be done.” That doesn't make it easier. It just means you may have to live with both the business consequences and the family consequences at the same time.

Most business owners know they need marketing. What many don't know is what they should be paying for it—or what they should expect in return. So when an SEO agency proposes a $3,500-a-month plan, how do you assess whether it's a smart investment or an expensive gamble? Do you know how many new customers it would take to make that spend worthwhile? Do you even have the data to answer that question? This week, Shawn Busse says too many owners are making those decisions in the dark. He offers a practical framework to help you do the math to evaluate marketing proposals, set realistic expectations, and decide what's worth spending—and what isn't.

Every business owner looks forward to that big break—the moment that you land a big client or a major retailer, or do something that puts you on a national stage. But those opportunities don't just reward you. They can also expose you—especially if you have to take on debt or ramp up production or do things you haven't done before. Four years ago, when Liz Picarazzi won a high-profile installation for her trash enclosures in Times Square, it was exactly that kind of opportunity. Her enclosures were put to the test in as public and as challenging an environment as she could imagine. And, by any reasonable measure, they failed. In pursuing that opportunity, Liz took a risk that led to what she calls the worst day of her professional life. It also turned out to be, as she tells Lena McGuire, the best thing that could have happened to her business. That moment forced changes she might never have made otherwise, pushing her to innovate faster and sending her business on a very different trajectory.Meanwhile, Lena is dealing with a quieter version of the same problem: what it really takes to move your business forward. She knows her systems need an upgrade. She's bought the software. But like a lot of owners, she's stuck in the messy middle—paying for the future while still trapped in the past, with no time to bridge the gap. How do you choose between tasks that generate revenue immediately and those that will improve operations over time?

For years, the Wine School of Philadelphia and PhillyWine LLC coexisted in the genteel world of wine education. Then a trademark dispute turned that quiet coexistence into a legal battle—complete with accusations, lawsuits, and mounting costs.This week, Keith Wallace, founder of the Wine School of Philadelphia, joins me to talk about what happens when a business owner who's tried to avoid litigation at all costs suddenly finds himself in the thick of it. He shares what the fight has actually required—financially, emotionally, and strategically—and what he wishes he had done differently before things escalated. Because one of the hardest lessons for any owner is this: you don't have to want a legal fight to end up in one.

For Lena McGuire, scope creep really can show up around every corner. She's in the home remodeling business. But for most owners, including Jaci Russo and Ted Wolf, projects that expand out of control can be less visible but just as hard to contain. It's baked into the job, because every assignment comes with a built-in tradeoff: Protect your margins or protect the relationship. And especially in the early days of a business, when reputation feels like everything, that's not much of a choice. “I was afraid to have tough conversations with people,” Ted says. “I just wanted everybody to like us.”Over time, systems help and boundaries get clearer. But the pressure never fully disappears. There's always one more request, one more detail to tweak—especially when you're thinking about the reviews and testimonials. “You want to get those nice photos at the end,” says remodeler Lena. “You want to get a referral.” This week, Lena, Jaci, and Ted talk about how their thinking on scope creep has evolved—and why it never stops being an issue.Plus: On the small business subreddit, an owner recently posted that he finds chasing accounts receivable so distasteful—it feels like begging—that he often puts it off and hopes for the best. “Is this just me?” he wants to know. “Or is this a common thing for small business owners?” We discuss. And Jaci explains why, even if she could get it, she wouldn't even consider accepting a $500 million account promoting a big deal consumer brand.

Despite what we've been reading about tariffs and immigration and inflation and health insurance, the macro economy has actually held up better than many economists expected over the past year. Unemployment is low, corporate profits are high, and the stock markets have been setting records. So, this week, I put the question to John Arensmeyer, CEO and founder of Small Business Majority: Are things really that tough for small businesses? Well, yes, says John. It's not necessarily any one issue, he says. It's the constant drip, drip, drip of many issues. In this week's conversation, we tackle several of the big ones.

Early on, William Vanderbloemen's search firm was exactly the kind of business HubSpot, the marketing platform, was built to help. William had a highly specialized audience, his team produced content that his audience needed, and HubSpot helped make sure the right people found it. Back then, he tells Kate Morgan and Jaci Russo, HubSpot's promise was that it could help a David compete with a Goliath, and that's what it did for Vanderbloemen Search.But that was almost 20 years ago, long before AI began reshaping how people discover information. Now, William contends, the rules are changing. If you create strong content for a specific audience, large language models can do more and more of the work of connecting that content to the people looking for it. Which raises a question: If that's where marketing is headed, do small businesses still need a sophisticated platform like HubSpot? In this week's episode, William shares his doubts.Along the way, the three owners also discuss why Kate changed her mind about selling her business, whether companies really need to pay attention to their Glassdoor reviews, and what a plumber should tell an SEO agency that wants a monthly retainer of $12,500.

Hiring a full-time marketing team isn't realistic for a lot of small businesses—but doing nothing may not be an option either. This week, Johnathan Grzybowski explains how Penji, the platform he co-founded, offers a different path: subscription-based access to vetted creatives matched to your specific needs.We talk about how that model actually works in practice, where it fits (and doesn't) for small businesses, and how Penji manages the tension between competing with—and supporting—traditional agencies. Plus: we talk about what happens to a business like Penji as AI reshapes creative work and why Johnathan believes there's ultimately only one marketing metric that matters: revenue.

Sandy Kapell knows HR—just not the version most business owners live with. After years leading human resources for corporations, Sandy launched her own business, Trakehner Leadership, to bring that expertise to companies that need help. And she's quickly found a big opportunity: Most small businesses don't have HR departments, but they still have all the same HR challenges.The catch? Sandy has also realized that knowing HR isn't the same as knowing how owners think about HR. Or how they talk about it. Or what they're actually willing to pay for it. So for our latest 21 Hats Brainstorm, we brought in a panel of owners to help Sandy pressure test her assumptions, refine her pitch, and figure out what HR looks like in companies where, as one owner puts it, I tell everyone what the plan is, and then I say, “‘If you don't like it, talk to HR.' And the joke is, I am HR. I am the owner.”Along the way, Sandy and the panelists dig into questions like: When does a business really need HR? What does good HR even look like at 10 or 20 employees? And how do you offer structure and support without sounding like the police or, even worse, like an HR person? Because what Sandy is really trying to do is to take a function most owners resist and make it something they actually want.

In her thirties, Lisa Woodruff hit a breaking point—overwhelmed, overweight, and depressed, as she puts it. So she made a radical decision: she quit her job as a school teacher and set out to get her own life in order. What started as a personal reset became a business—Organize 365—built around a simple but powerful idea: running a household isn't all that different from running a company.In her new book, Escaping Quicksand, Lisa argues that households, like businesses, need systems, delegation, and intentional leadership. But she also makes a point that may resonate with a lot of listeners: for women especially, the stakes—and the expectations—are different. This week, Lisa explains what she's learned about escaping overwhelm and why treating your home like a business might be the key to getting your life back.

Pricing a service business sounds straightforward—until you actually have to do it. How much should you charge? What's reasonable? And what happens when “reasonable” isn't enough to keep the business healthy? This week, Sarah Segal walks David C. Barnett and Liz Picarazzi through how she thinks about pricing her PR services—why she aims for consistency across clients and why she resists charging based on what the market will bear but insists on building in enough margin to stay profitable. It's a balancing act between values and reality, and not always a comfortable one.The conversation gets into practical questions every business eventually faces: Do you raise prices a little every year, or wait until you're forced to raise them more than just a little? Do you price based on your costs—or your customer's perceived value? And how do you handle those conversations without damaging relationships you genuinely care about?Plus: Liz expects a tariff refund—but isn't counting on it to help very much. She also explains why she's stopped flying employees around the country for installations.

Shawn Busse has never been an AI evangelist. If anything, he's been wary of the hype. But lately, his thinking has started to shift. While it's still early, Shawn sees AI pushing marketing away from the soul-deadening world of SEO hacks and keyword stuffing—and toward something far more human: real storytelling and authentic brand building. In this week's Dashboard, he explains what he's seeing in his own business and with clients, and what it may mean for owners trying to figure out where to focus next.

It's easy to condemn the horror stories coming out of Noma, the celebrated restaurant in Copenhagen. But this week, Jay Goltz, Jennifer Kerhin, and Ted Wolf confront a harder question: How far are the rest of us—business owners in every industry—from crossing the line? Because it's not just restaurants. Most owners don't set out to be abusive. They set out to build something great. And somewhere along the way, high standards can start to blur into something else. ‘I was out of control when I was in my 20s,' Jay admits.So, what changed? And where did the owners land? How much command and control is actually necessary? When does pushing someone cross the line—and when does not pushing them enough become its own failure? Have you ever held onto the wrong employee too long? Or pushed the right one too hard? Jay doesn't sugarcoat his opinion about yellers: “You're going to tell me you're passionate. I'm going to tell you, ‘You're an asshole.'”The group digs into the trade-offs every owner faces: hiring versus managing, systems versus stars, culture versus performance. What do you do with the high performer who damages the team? Can you really coach anyone to excellence—or are there limits? And then there's the quiet warning sign many owners ignore: Something goes wrong, and someone says, “Oh, well, everybody knows how Bob is.” That, says Jay, is when you know you've got a problem. This is a conversation about judgment calls—messy, human, unavoidable. Because as Jennifer puts it, “It's really hard to manage people.”

Chris Campbell started his first business at 18 and has since built and sold companies in landscaping, construction, furniture, and marketing. After his most recent exit, he spent years searching for a business to buy—and found nothing. That dead end turned out to be an opening.Instead, Chris and a group of partners—including his wife, Emily—decided to start something from scratch. The result: a plan for Banana Daddy, a high-concept soft-serve shop built around banana ice cream that would take $2 million to open. Every experienced restaurant operator they consulted had the same reaction: Don't do it. They did it anyway.It's less than a month in, but so far, Banana Daddy is exceeding expectations. Fueled in part by playful, slightly suggestive, but still kid-friendly marketing—”Please Lick Responsibly!”—it draws lines around the block and has even required a bouncer to manage the crowds. Along the way, the team has discovered something they didn't expect: a surprising number of people want ice cream first thing in the morning. “It's bananas,” says Chris. And this is only the first step in a much bigger plan.

Given everything going on in the world, you might expect a rough start to the year. But for Paul Downs, Jennifer Kerhin, and Jaci Russo, 2026 has actually begun quite well. In fact, Jennifer and Jaci say they're finally climbing out of what many owners call the Valley of Death—that long stretch when the business depends on you for everything and when it starts to outgrow your people and your systems. Exiting the valley can take a lot longer than people expect. Jennifer is seeing daylight in year 17. Paul says it took him 25 years, a quarter of a century. “Most of that time,” he admits, “I was just wallowing in ignorance.” One lesson they've learned the hard way: growing too fast can do real damage. “You burn out your employees,” Jennifer says. “You provide poor quality control to your clients. You make everybody upset and angry.”Along the way, the three owners cover a lot of ground: what actually makes trade shows worth the investment (hint: it's what you do before and after), why you may not be able to copyright that graphic design, why your logo needs a trademark, why Paul's Google traffic is holding up but his Middle East expansion is on hold, what Jaci has uncovered about the shocking cost gap in health insurance for her female employees, and why it's insane that business owners have to manage their employees' health insurance in the first place. It's a wide-ranging conversation—but underneath it all is a theme most owners will recognize: Progress doesn't always come from big breakthroughs. Sometimes it comes from surviving long enough to figure things out. 

For most business owners, rewarding employees for doing their jobs well is just common sense. Hit your numbers, get a bonus. Sell more, earn more. Perform better, get paid more. That's how motivation works…right?This week, management consultant Kelly Allan asks owners to reconsider that assumption. Allan is steeped in the teachings of W. Edwards Deming, the management thinker widely credited with inspiring Japan's post–World War II industrial revival. Deming argued that pay-for-performance systems don't actually improve performance. Instead, they create unintended consequences—encouraging people to chase metrics, compete with colleagues, and optimize the wrong things.In Deming's view—and in Allan's—performance isn't primarily about individuals at all. It's about the system they work in. In our conversation, Kelly explains why incentives often backfire and how owners who are curious can begin experimenting with a different approach.

It's already been quite a decade for owners: a pandemic, inflation, tariffs, and now, suddenly, war with Iran—bringing with it the biggest spike in oil prices ever. And looming over everything is the still-uncertain impact of artificial intelligence. This week, David C. Barnett, Jay Goltz, and Ted Wolf talk about how all that uncertainty is shaping the decisions owners are making right now—from whether it's wise to invest in new equipment to how some lenders are demanding that would-be borrowers articulate their AI strategy before obtaining a loan.The implications of all of this vary by industry, but Dave says some sectors suddenly look a lot riskier than they did a year ago. “I don't know if I'd want to get a 90-percent loan to buy a marketing agency today,” he says. At the same time, the economics of AI could push owners to move faster than they might otherwise. As Dave notes, if a $10,000 or $20,000 investment in AI can quickly replace two positions, that's the kind of return many owners will find hard to ignore when expenses are rising.Along the way, the three discuss why periods like this can also create unexpected opportunities. Keep your eyes open, Dave advises. “A lot of those opportunities may come from a competitor stumbling.”Plus: what happens when business owners suddenly realize they should have been collecting sales tax all along. Do you pay the back taxes yourself? Start collecting now and hope for the best? Or is there a smarter way to fix the problem?

It does in this sense, says Victor Hwang, founder of Right to Start, an advocacy group that works to expand entrepreneurial opportunity: While starting a business can be daunting, many Americans assume it's even more daunting than it actually is. For six years, Victor and his organization have tried to address that concern by removing barriers to entry and spreading awareness of entrepreneurial opportunities. In this episode, Victor discusses the progress Right to Start has made, including significant recent steps in Oklahoma. He also has big plans for the 250th celebration of what he likes to call America's startup.

Despite the waves of uncertainty crashing across the economy, this week we hear from three owners who feel cautiously good about how their year has started. David C. Barnett budgeted for slightly less revenue in 2026, but he's operating more efficiently and expects to turn a bigger profit. Jaci Russo is hitting her revenue projections—and after implementing a profit-first accounting system, she says the results have been “eye-opening.” And while Lena McGuire isn't quite on track to meet her aggressive goal of doubling her business this year, she's doing far better than she did a year ago.Along the way, we talk about getting runaway software subscriptions under control, figuring out how businesses get discovered in an AI world, and why Jaci's health plan charges almost three times as much to cover female employees as it does comparable male employees. And we consider a question that might have sounded ridiculous not long ago: Has it become harder to get a job than it is to start a business?

In this sponsored conversation, Mike Butler, CEO of Grasshopper Bank, argues that business owners shouldn't have to choose between speed and stability when it comes to their bank. Grasshopper has no branches, but it does offer full-service lending — with the quick decisions you might expect from an alternative lender and the rates you'd expect from a traditional one.Butler also explains how the bank is using AI to simplify everyday tasks — like finding a specific transaction in seconds instead of digging through statements — and we talk about a question many owners still wonder about: Do you lose something when you give up the local banker relationship? Along the way, we discuss which businesses are the best fit for Grasshopper, what customers actually value most, and why Butler decided to merge the bank with a larger company, Enova.

For the past six years, we've done our best to avoid talking politics on this podcast. By focusing on the business realities owners confront every day, we've tried to create a space where people with very different perspectives—from different industries and different parts of the country—can still learn from one another. That's something we take seriously. But we also live in the real world. And lately, the real world has been making that separation harder.On this episode, Paul Downs, Kate Morgan, and Liz Picarazzi talk about those moments when business and personal beliefs collide—and when staying silent may not feel like an option. They've each faced uncomfortable questions: What do you do when an employee says something you find objectionable? Are there customers you simply won't work with? How do you stay true to your values without putting your company at risk? There are no easy answers here. And not everyone will agree on where the line should be drawn. But as always, there's real value in seeing how other owners handle tricky situations.

A lot of business owners are taking a wait-and-see approach with artificial intelligence. They've heard the hype—but they've also heard about the slop, the hallucinations, and the research suggesting many AI projects fail to deliver. For plenty of owners, that's reason enough to assume this might be another passing obsession—like Y2K, Clubhouse, or the metaverse—and to sit back until the dust settles.But not these three owners: David C. Barnett, Jaci Russo, and William Vanderbloemen have decided that waiting is the bigger risk. They're taking courses, they're teaching courses, they're building agents, and they're rethinking processes and workflows—all in search of an edge that may not be available forever. And they're already seeing results.In this episode, they share what's actually working so far, including some early experiments that could reduce their reliance on Google AdWords. They also talk candidly about what they won't do with AI, how they sidestep the slop, and why each of them believes this is one of those rare moments when experimentation isn't optional.

Yes, says Gene Marks in this week's Dashboard, the Supreme Court's tariff decision, while correct, has created a mess. No, you shouldn't make any plans to spend your tariff refund money. And no, there's no telling where the Trump administration might be heading. But he does offer this one shred of certainty: For many businesses that have been paying the so-called reciprocal tariffs, if they plan for a 15-percent tariff rate going forward, they'll probably be in reasonably safe territory.

Sooner or later, most business owners run into the same unsettling question: How do I actually get out of this thing? Pass it to family? Sell to a competitor? To key employees? To private equity? To an ESOP or an Employee Ownership Trust? Or maybe just shut it down?There's no shortage of advice—but almost all of it comes with strings attached. Most advisors know one path best, and not coincidentally, it's the path they're paid to promote. Sorting through the options on your own can feel overwhelming, expensive, and risky. What if there were a place to get an honest, apples-to-apples comparison—one that looks at your specific business and lays out what really fits?That's the problem Sonali Kothari is trying to solve with Zolidar, a startup she co-founded. In this episode, she explains how the company is building a tool to help owners think clearly about their exit—and why that process shouldn't start five years too late. You can even test-drive it yourself with Zolidar's free 10-minute Day Zero Guide for a preliminary assessment.

Sometimes the best conversations start with a simple question—and then another, and another. This week, we put Kate Morgan, Jaci Russo, and Ted Wolf in the hot seat and fire away: Are you hiring? Are you finding impressive job candidates? What was the worst job you ever had—and did you learn anything from it? Have you bought crypto? If you had $10,000 a month to spend on marketing, where would it go? Should a marketing agency ever turn its marketing over to another marketing agency? What's holding you back? What's the simplest thing you've never quite figured out how to do?None of these are trick questions, but they don't necessarily have easy answers. Kate admits she's never opened her accounting software. Jaci says one of the best things that ever happened to her was getting fired. Ted recounts losing 40 percent of his company's revenue in a single weekend. Running a business means living with trade-offs, uncertainty, and the occasional punch to the gut. As Jaci reminds us, it usually works out—one way or another. But that doesn't mean the answers are simple when you're in the middle of it.

Kelly Berry's introduction to small-business ownership came at a moment when most new parents are focused on something else entirely. She had just come home from the hospital after giving birth when her husband handed her a personal guarantee to sign. He had quit his job to start a business.“So if this fails,” she said, “you'll be unemployed and we'll be homeless?”“Yep,” he replied.That moment made the risks of entrepreneurship very real—and it helped set Kelly on the path she's been on ever since. She went on to earn her MBA, work with economic-development organizations, and eventually launch her own business running peer groups for business owners. Her focus has always been the same: helping owners navigate the challenges they face—together.In this week's Dashboard, Kelly shares what she's seeing on the front lines of small business, why peer groups can be so powerful, and how she's working to bring that support to owners in rural communities who may not have access to in-person groups. She also talks about what it takes to build her own business along the way. And if you'd like to explore whether a peer group might be right for you, you can start with a short quiz she's created.

Almost every growing business experiences a moment when success starts creating as many problems as it solves. Sales are up. The team is bigger. The product line is broader. And suddenly, the systems that got you here start to break. That's where Liz Picarazzi finds herself right now. “We're in the valley of death,” she says. “And we really need help.” Liz's company, Citibin, made the most recent Inc. 5000 list, but Citibin has also hit that dangerous in-between stage—too big to run on improvisation, too small to have put in place all of the processes it needs.So Liz is trying to grow her way out of the valley. She's hired a marketing agency. A growth consultant. And two AI advisors. She's testing new domestic fabricators. And she's rebuilding her website from the ground up—because right now, it's generating no more than 10 percent of sales, and she knows it can do better. The site hasn't kept up with her expanding product line, and it isn't even optimized for search engine discovery, let alone for generative AI discovery.Talking it through with Paul Downs and Jaci Russo, Liz confronts some uncomfortable questions: How much copy is “enough” for AI? How transparent should pricing be—especially for a premium product whose prices could scare away some customers? And who has a better feel for the company's story—the owner who's lived it or the agency that has more experience helping businesses connect with customers? Not surprisingly, Liz and Jaci have different instincts on that one. What follows is a candid look at what it takes to rebuild a growing business at the dawn of a new era.

For most business owners, growth is the goal. More customers. More revenue. Bigger numbers. Bigger opportunities. And often, more pressure. But what if the way most of us think about growth is actually setting us up for trouble? Economist Gary Kunkle has spent years studying what really drives business performance. Not in headlines or case studies—but in large sets of real-world data. And what he's found is that fast, aggressive growth often creates risks that owners don't see until it's too late.One reason is this: His research indicates that in most companies, about 20 percent of customers generate almost all of the profit. Most of the rest barely break even. And a surprising number quietly lose money. So when you chase growth, you're often just adding more of the wrong customers—more complexity, more strain, more work, and less margin. In this conversation, Gary explains why steady, disciplined growth tends to outperform flashy expansion—and how understanding your own numbers can help you avoid the traps that derail so many otherwise strong businesses. Want to learn more? You can go to Gary's website or email him directly: gmkunkle@yahoo.com.

Alan Pentz is convinced a wave of disruption is about to crash into small businesses—and he's doing everything he can to warn owners before it hits. He's writing, teaching, consulting, waving the red flag. He's just not sure anyone is ready to listen. “I don't know if you've seen Don't Look Up,” he says, “but it's kind of like that. The asteroid's coming—and everyone's still walking around like it's normal.” In our latest 21 Hats Brainstorm, Alan put his own future on the table. He asked a panel of owners to help him answer a hard question: Do business owners actually want help adopting AI? And if they do, what kind of help will they pay for? Is there a real, scalable business here—or just a lot of interest and polite nodding? And there's one more twist: Alan already owns a successful consulting firm. So he also has to decide whether this opportunity is worth jumping back into the startup grind to build another service-heavy business from scratch. This 21 Hats Brainstorm is brought to you by New Bridge Studios, which helps companies, creators, and causes connect their stories to the bottom line.

Ryan Markewich knows the landscaping business from the inside. He built and sold a successful landscaping company in British Columbia, then spent years coaching owners of all kinds of businesses through the Great Game of Business—helping them understand their numbers, their people, and their decisions. Now he's a certified advisor with an AI-powered platform called LeanScaper It's only been around for about a year, and it's designed specifically for landscaping businesses but it's growing quickly because it offers a practical, step-by-step playbook that helps owners think through pricing, staffing, cash flow, and growth decisions, using AI to guide—not replace—their judgment. This week on Dashboard, Ryan walks us through what happens when one industry gets an AI playbook for running a business—and why landscaping may be an early glimpse of what's coming for a lot of small business owners.

Things are suddenly moving fast at Sarah Segal's San Francisco PR firm. Several new clients look likely to sign on, and for the first time in a while, growth feels real. Which leaves Sarah with a familiar, nerve-racking question: Do you hire before the work arrives—or wait until the revenue is actually in the door? If she hires now, she may have to cut her own pay until the new business materializes. And there's no guarantee it will. She still remembers the last downturn, when she had to lay off people she cared about—and she's determined not to repeat that experience. But if she waits and the clients do sign, she risks something else: overloading her existing team, burning people out, and falling behind before she can recruit and train new hires. The pressure is even higher because Sarah has already set an aggressive revenue goal for 2026.Plus: Jaci Russo explains why she's adopted a different approach to planning and budgeting. Instead of guessing how much she can afford to spend, Jaci is changing the order of the math. After revisiting Mike Michalowicz's Profit First—prompted by a story highlighted in the 21 Hats Morning Report—she's begun setting profit targets first and forcing every other decision, including hiring, to fit around them. It's only been a few weeks, but Jaci says the shift is already changing how she thinks about risk, growth, and what she can actually afford.

Over the past six years, Teamshares has quietly been running an ambitious experiment in small-business ownership. The company has bought some 90 businesses—promising never to sell them—and then converted those companies to employee ownership. Even amid the uncertainty of 2025, those businesses generated more than $400 million in revenue and about $60 million in profit, with a surprisingly low failure rate and unusually high employee retention. This week, Michael Brown, co-founder and CEO of Teamshares, returns to the podcast at a pivotal moment. Teamshares is preparing to go public—a move that raises obvious questions for a company built around long-term ownership and patient capital. We talk about what Teamshares has learned about buying businesses from aging owners, what employee ownership really changes inside a company, and what is likely to happen when an experiment like this collides with the public markets.

Six years ago, Kate Morgan walked away from the sale of her business just days before closing. Since then, she's endured some rough stretches, fighting through the pandemic and a slump in the software sector where many of her clients live. She's managed to stay profitable, and she sees lots of opportunity ahead, but the grind has worn her down. After years of pushing, adapting, and holding on, she says she's had enough. She believes a strategic sale makes the most sense, and she's working her network to find the right buyer. This week, she talks through her plan with David C. Barnett and Ted Wolf, two owners who—unlike most—have actually sold businesses and lived with the consequences. They push Kate to think carefully about her options and the pitfalls that trip up so many owners.Plus: One reason Kate is ready to sell is that she's recently published a book, and she'd like to devote more time and energy to accepting speaking opportunities. As it happens, Ted has written two books that he's trying to figure out how to get published. Kate and David compare notes on the very different paths they've taken—David self-publishing through Amazon, Kate paying a big fee to work with Forbes Books. Both are quite happy with the choices they made.

This week, Gene Marks makes the case for optimism. There are all sorts of obvious issues to be concerned about but Gene cites a series of reasons his clients are expecting good things. Chief among them are a series of tax cuts that are coming on line and that are likely to provide more stimulus than many people are expecting. He also expects inflation to moderate and interest rates to fall enough to help out the housing and construction industries. Plus: What business owners need to know about the new tax rules governing over-time and tips.

Most business owners say they do. They tell themselves they just need to get through this one crisis, this one launch, this one quarter—and then life will settle down. But what if that's not actually the goal? This week, Mel Gravely, Lena McGuire, and Ted Wolf talk candidly about what it really takes to build a business—and about whether balance is something owners are truly striving for or simply something they feel they're supposed to want. “I gotta tell you,” says Mel, “I just don't know if people were really honest that they'd say that they'd be one to spend their time at their kid's parent-teacher conference.” Lena stresses that it's not about right or wrong. It's about owners making the choice that's right for them. “You have to make yourself happy first,” she says. “It's kind of—we always use that, ‘Put your oxygen mask on yourself first, and then you can help others.'” The owners agree that there's a seasonality to entrepreneurship. There are periods when the business demands more, and owners have few real options. That pressure can intensify when a company is struggling—but, intriguingly, it can be just as intense when the business is growing fast. Of course, all businesses endure periods of crisis. But what if the crises never end?

This week, Karla Trotman, owner of Electro Soft, a contract manufacturing business outside of Philadelphia, talks about the series of contradictions and tough calls she confronted in 2025. It started with the chaos of the tariffs, which you might think would have helped a domestic manufacturer but which led to suppliers charging more and to customers pulling back and to Karla feeling beaten up by her advisory board, which wanted her to reduce expenses and headcount.But Karla chose a different path.

For years, business owners have been told to follow a familiar playbook when it comes to hiring: Take your time. Be selective. Hire slow, fire fast. But more and more owners are discovering that those rules don't fit the reality they're facing right now. This week, William Vanderbloemen says employers can no longer indulge the luxury of hiring slow. “The shortest sermon I've got,” says the former pastor, “is candidates are more fickle than ever, and owners need to realize that.” Paul Downs says he's trying to figure out what's gone wrong with his hiring process: Is it the way he uses Indeed? The way he approaches candidates? Or the differences between hiring white-collar and blue-collar employees? Jaci Russo believes companies should always be marketing their brand as an employer and always be on the lookout for good people—even when they're not actively hiring. Plus, in a wide-ranging, end-of-year discussion recorded in December, the three owners talk about whether they hit their numbers in 2025, whether they use a formal budgeting process, what they expect in the year ahead, and how far out they can realistically see when they try to plan for the future.

This week, Adam Russo, co-founder and owner of The Phia Group, explains how his company helps employers reduce their healthcare expenses. The key, he says, is to educate and incentivize employees to be smarter about how they purchase health care—without compromising on the quality of the care. That, he says, is how he's able to offer employees who've been with Phia for five years care that is entirely free: no deductibles, no co-pays. Many of his clients are big companies that self-fund their health insurance, but he says even businesses with as few as two employees can find tremendous savings this way.

This week, we take another look back at the conversations we've had over the past year, highlighting some of our happiest, smartest, funniest, and most difficult exchanges, including Laura Zander on how she got the price she wanted to sell Jimmy Beans Wool, Liz Picarazzi on her confrontation with a grizzly bear, Jay Goltz on why he just might be a good candidate to turn his business into a worker cooperative, Mel Gravely on why he sold his facilities-management business as soon as it became profitable, and Jaci Russo on how she figured out how to train a series of AI agents to deliver 10 client leads first thing every morning.

This week, Gene Marks tells us it's late, but it's not too late to reduce this year's tax bill. There are still steps you can take, including writing off receivables and inventory and kicking money into a retirement plan. You might even be able to save money on your taxes from previous years if you used the research-and-development tax depreciation. The GOP tax law allows you to go back and retroactively take the full R&D deduction in the first year rather than amortizing it over five years—but check with your accountant. Gene also says that it's no longer a slam dunk that a pass-through structure is best for smaller businesses—but again, check with your accountant!

This week—and next week—we take a look back at the conversations we've had over the past year, highlighting some of our happiest, smartest, funniest, and most difficult exchanges, including Paul Downs on how he diced which employees to lay off, Jennifer Kerhin on asking ChatGPT to review her performance as CEO, Kate Morgan on why she's been reluctant to raise her prices, Liz Picarazzi on her search for a domestic manufacturer for her trash enclosures, Ari Weinzweig on why Zingerman's charges so much for a hamburger, and David C. Barnett on why your business is probably worth more to you owning it than selling it.

As the year comes to a close, I often reach out to John Arensmeyer, who is founder and CEO of Small Business Majority, to get his take on the state of small businesses in America. The picture John paints this year, based on his own observations as well as a recent survey, is not pretty. He points to a host of issues -- health insurance, tariffs, immigration, cuts to federal programs -- every one of which can represent an existential threat to a business. John does note, however, that through it all, owners appear to remain surprisingly optimistic heading into 2026—even if that optimism speaks more to the resilience of business owners than it does to the economic outlook.

This week, special guest Rich Jordan takes us inside a marketing challenge presented by his successful acquisition of home services businesses. Do you keep the legacy names of those businesses to preserve local trust—at the cost of running a fragmented, inefficient marketing operation? Do you take the strongest brand you own and roll it out everywhere, even if it may not translate from one community to the next? Or do you wipe the slate clean and create an entirely new brand to unify the whole operation—knowing that it means walking away from money you've already sunk into branding your biggest location? In a conversation with Shawn Busse and Jay Goltz, Rich walks through how he wrestled with those choices, why he ultimately made the call he did, and what he learned along the way. His takeaways included that there are still people who listen to radio, that an authentic story can compete with private equity, and that it is possible to find a marketing agency that will align its interests with yours.

Most business owners know they should build a forecast for 2026. But many won't—because it feels intimidating and time-consuming, and let's be honest, it's almost guaranteed to be inaccurate. This week, Tracy Bech, founder of The 60 Minute CFO, makes the case for why you should do it anyway. Tracy breaks the process down into three simple steps, shows how even a rough forecast can change the way you run your business, and explains how her free 60 Minute CFO Custom GPT can speed things up and expand your financial analysis. Her point isn't that you can predict the future. It's that you need a clear, flexible model to see whether your business is on track—or drifting somewhere you never intended to go.

This week, in Episode 273, David C. Barnett, Paul Downs, and Sarah Segal tackle health insurance, one of the least enjoyable issues business owners confront. It's renewal season, and the three owners are seeing different systems, different pressures, but similar frustrations. Paul tells us he's facing the largest premium increases he's seen since the Affordable Care Act—double-digit hikes that will cost him an extra $15,000 to $25,000 next year. Sarah hasn't received her numbers yet, but she's preparing for the worst. And David gives us a cross-border view from Canada, where universal coverage eliminates the pricing drama but introduces its own set of complications. It's a candid conversation about what's responsible, what's sustainable, and what business owners are supposed to do when the numbers don't leave good options. Plus: We also talk about what it takes to get a business ready to be sold. While BizBuySell recently reported that more owners are looking to get out—even if it means dropping their asking price—that's not exactly what David is seeing in the marketplace. “The truth is that small businesses sell for relatively low multiples of cash flow,” he says. “And so, the real benefit is not actually in the exit. It's in the owning.”

This week, Brandon Gray, a partner with CRI Simple Numbers, talks about how his firm tracks the performance of what he calls the entrepreneurial economy. As we all know, what's happening on Wall Street doesn't always reflect what's happening on Main Street, which is why Simple Numbers tracks the performance of 100 smaller businesses. Right now, Brandon says, the performance of those businesses isn't looking great, which doesn't necessarily bode well for 2026. How should an individual owner make use of that information? Brandon has some suggestions.

This week, we're replaying one of my favorite conversations of the year, a Q&A session we recorded in May at our 21 Hats Live event in Ann Arbor, Michigan, with Ari Weinzweig, co-founder of Zingerman's Community of Businesses. If you've already listened to our conversation with Ari, I encourage you to listen again. It's worth it.And if you haven't heard it, well, you're in for a treat. Much of the discussion focused on a topic that haunts just about every business owner, and that's pricing. Specifically, Ari talked about how he learned to charge enough to run a healthy business and why he'd rather go out of business charging what Zingerman's needs to charge than go out of business never knowing whether customers would have paid the true cost of great food and great service. (Spoiler alert: They have not gone out of business.)Not surprisingly, the 21 Hats Live participants had lots of questions for Ari, including how he and his partners decide whether to launch a new business, how he and co-founder Paul Saginaw have maintained their partnership for more than 40 years, how he and Paul are approaching succession, and whether he thinks of himself as successful, which prompted Ari to share that his mother never stopped pleading with him to take the LSAT. You know, just in case.We're re-playing the episode in part because we took Thanksgiving week off from recording but also because it offers a little taste of what it's like to attend a 21 Hats Live event. As you may have seen in the Morning Report, I've just announced that our fourth annual in-person event will take place in Cincinnati in May. Once again, it will be a terrific opportunity to connect with others who understand what it takes to build a business. If you've ever wished you could spend more time with people who really get what you're going through, this is your chance. We will have peer group conversations on topics you help pick. We'll get VIP tours of iconic local businesses. We'll eat good food. We'll build relationships. And we'll leave inspired.But spots are limited. For more information and to register, please check the newsletter I sent out on Sunday. Or shoot me an email, and I'll make sure you get the invite. You can reach me at loren@21hats.com.

This week, Rob Levin, who is co-founder of WorkBetterNow and who has just published a new book, the “New Talent Playbook,” talks about what he considers to be a talent crisis for small businesses. As Rob points out, you might think hiring would be easy these days given all of the recent corporate layoffs—but the people leaving big businesses are probably not the right hires for smaller businesses. Instead, Rob offers a step-by-step approach that emphasizes building a healthy culture where people want to work.