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Keith discusses strategies for amplifying investing returns and reducing lifetime tax burdens through real estate, geography, and industry.  He compares tax burdens by state and explains how investors can leverage low-income tax states and low-property tax states.  Podcast host, investor and developer, Victor Menasce, joins the conversation to highlight the industrial real estate market, emphasizing the demand for warehousing and logistics.They touch on the potential in industrial outdoor storage and the complexities of data center investments. Reach out to Y Street Capital to learn more about their projects and the real estate espresso podcast. Resources: Switch to listening to the podcast on the Apple Podcasts or Spotify app, as the dedicated GRE mobile app will be discontinued at the end of the month. Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/577 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREinvestmentcoach.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  For predictable 10-12% quarterly returns, visit FreedomFamilyInvestments.com/GRE or text  1-937-795-8989 to speak with a freedom coach Will you please leave a review for the show? I'd be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE' to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript: Keith Weinhold  0:00   Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, we're talking about how you can use real estate, geography and industry to amplify your investing returns over the course of your life and permanently reduce your lifetime tax burden today on Get Rich Education.   Keith Weinhold  0:21   You know, most people think they're playing it safe with their liquid money, but they're actually losing savings accounts and bonds don't keep up when true inflation eats six or 7% of your wealth. Every single year, I invest my liquidity with FFI freedom family investments in their flagship program. Why fixed 10 to 12% returns have been predictable and paid quarterly. There's real world security backed by needs based real estate like affordable housing, Senior Living and health care. Ask about the freedom flagship program when you speak to a freedom coach there, and that's just one part of their family of products. They've got workshops, webinars and seminars designed to educate you before you invest, start with as little as 25k and finally, get your money working as hard as you do. Get started at Freedom, family investments.com/gre, or send a text. Now it's 1-937-795-8989 77958989, yep, text their freedom coach directly. Again, 1-937-795-8989,   Corey Coates  1:34   you're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.   Keith Weinhold  1:49   Welcome to GRE from Milford, Delaware to Milford, Utah and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and this is get rich education, the voice of real estate investing since 2014 now, what do you think about a multi week government shutdown? That means there's a cut in your service level, but of course, oh geez, there's no commensurate cut in the amount of taxes that you pay. This is the government's version of charging rent on a vacant unit. That's what's happening. That's what we've been looking at in the biggest expense you'll ever pay in your life. It isn't housing, it's taxes. Before I get to how you can reduce the amount of taxes that you'll pay throughout the course of your life, which is huge. Let's pull back, and I guess it's a bit of a real estate geography riddle for you, imagine if there were a place that existed, and this place is within a 15 minute drive of a seacoast, 15 minutes of mountains, within 15 minutes of an urban core of about 300,000 people, and within 15 minutes of an international airport and a decent airport that has direct, non stop flights to Europe. Even, could that place exist all of that? I mean, it almost sounds too good to be true when I put it like that, yes, it does, and it's in the United States. On top of that, this same place with proximity, within 15 minutes of all four of those things, has zero state income tax and zero sales tax. Yes, all this is in the same place, and that's where I am coming to you from today, Anchorage, Alaska. I traveled a good bit, and I can't think of another place in the US quite like it. A quick check of Chad GPT corroborates this, saying that the US places that come closest are Honolulu, Juneau and Bellingham, Washington. They come the closest to that. Now, the biggest downside, in my opinion, is a long, dark, cold winter. Well, that's when I do more traveling, but I spend many months of the year right here in Anchorage. And my guest today, who you'll hear from later, I haven't had him on the show in years, where recently he I and his wife, Natasha, toured Anchorage. I drove them around.   Keith Weinhold  4:29   first, let me tell you about a creative way to pay both a low property tax and a low income tax, and that is no matter what state or province that you live in now, the big three taxes that people pay throughout their lives are income tax, sales tax and a property tax. Those are the big three, and when you combine those to come up with the highest and lowest tax burdens by state, you'll notice that coastal states often pay the most. They generally have the biggest burden, because coasts attract people, and therefore those highly populated areas, they need infrastructure, say, for example, more bridges, and they often have more social services for people, and it costs tax money to maintain all of that. Now, look, will people move to an area specifically because they can get low taxes there? Like is that amenity in itself an attractant? Actually, not so much. No, you do get some people to move to Puerto Rico, predominantly for that reason. But interestingly, the two states with the lowest overall tax burden, that is, when you combine income, sales and property tax, the lowest are Alaska and Wyoming, and yet they have the fewest people living there, under 1 million people each. So the two states with the lowest tax burdens are also the two least populous states. So it is not making people flock there. So where you choose to live? Oh, that has more to do with your overall quality of life. And you know that's probably as it should be. Well, whether you own your home or you rent your home, you effectively do pay property tax, because tenants end up subsidizing the landlord's expenses. Most property tax maps that you see out there, those national property tax maps, they show the average tax bill that a household pays by state, regardless of real estate values. Well, that's not so useful. You might remember that a few weeks ago in our newsletter, I sent you the best and the smartest property tax map that I have by county. You'll remember that it showed the property tax paid as a percentage of the home value, so that relative basis is what matters more. When we look at property tax paid that way, we can more transparently see that the highest property taxes are generally paid in three US regions. Those three regions with the highest property taxes are the northeast, much of the Great Plains and Texas now a 1% property tax rate is, for example, when you have to pay 4000 bucks a year on a property value of 400k That's that 1% and the lowest are in the Western US and the nation's southeast quadrant, often under 1% we're just talking about the property taxes only here. Now out west, lower property taxes, they still rarely create investor cash flow, and that's because purchase prices are too high out west, and rents don't keep up with them proportionally. But low taxes, they do adequately sweeten the most investor advantaged areas, that is in the southeast Indiana, Missouri, Oklahoma, Hawaii, and a bunch of the Mid Atlantic states. All right, so they are the investor advantaged areas that also have low property tax. The nation's lowest property tax rate is in Alabama. Roll tide, I think I've mentioned that on the show before. All right, so that's property tax, but states have to get their revenue somewhere, so oftentimes, if their property tax is low, well then they have to make up for that. So therefore their income or sales tax can be high. Now as far as income tax, each state has their own of course, the high ones are New York, New Jersey, California and Hawaii. Those are many of the high ones. But there are nine states with zero, absolutely zero, state income tax, and those nine states that are free of income tax are the aforementioned, Alaska, Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Washington and Wyoming and Washington gets somewhat of an asterisk that has a little wrinkle in it. That's one of the nine with the wrinkle, you'll pay zero income tax on your wages in Washington. It only applies to high earners, capital gains tax income there, all right. Well, all of that is true for everybody there, every US citizen. But here's the arbitrage that a real estate investor can create. If you live in one state and you own property in another state, you always pay property tax where the property is physically located, not where you live. I mean, any longtime out of state real estate investor knows that. So you can therefore live in a state with little or no income tax, for example, Texas, and then a Texas resident can skirt Texas's higher property tax by investing in a different state that has low property tax, like, say, Alabama or Tennessee. Oh, well, now both your property tax and your income tax are low this way. And congratulations, you have just legally exploited the tax system. Some examples of a low income tax home state where you live and a low property tax investor state where your investment property is, so that you get the best of both worlds. They are, Texas is your home state, and Alabama is your investment property state, like I just described, and then a few other scenarios, so that you can legally use the system to pay both a low income tax and low property tax. Are having Pennsylvania as your home state and Missouri as your investor property state, having New Hampshire as your home state and Tennessee is your investor property state. And then another example, having Washington as your home state and Arkansas as your investor state. Those are just some examples of combinations there about how you can live in a low income tax state and then also enjoy having your investment property in a low property tax state and see perhaps now you're doing this without having to move. Yes, investing in low property tax states. Now, of course, property taxes are set at the county or city level. They're not set federally, but just within one state. Sometimes property tax can vary dramatically, which you probably know, but two of the biggest examples of this are in Illinois, Cook County, which is Chicago, and also Miami, Dade County, Florida. I mean those jurisdictions, they have tax rates that can make wallets cry more than their surrounding counties do, and some states have maximums, legal limits ceilings on property taxes. California proposition 13 famously limits property tax to 1% of assessed value, and then the increases are capped as well. I mean this means the two California neighbors with identical homes can pay wildly different taxes, and Florida is still looking to completely eliminate the property tax. Can you imagine that? I mean, it seems doubtful that that will happen, but you can conceive of how much more desirable that would make Florida properties, and that would probably make all Florida housing values skyrocket now, just because a property has a high property tax rate that doesn't disqualify it as an investment property alone, it's just one consideration that'll show up in your proforma, your cash flow. So the bottom line is that as an income property owner, property tax is mostly passed on to your tenant, but paying a low rate still keeps you more flexible and profitable. So think of a map of states with low property taxes, sort of like a treasure map, but instead of x marking the spot, it marks where your money will go the furthest.    Keith Weinhold  13:36   And if you want real estate maps like I'm talking about here, and stories and great charts and investment opportunities that I cannot fit onto the channel. Here, you can grab them in my free weekly newsletter at gre letter.com and part of this is because I just cannot adequately describe a map or a chart to you here in an audio format. You get more in the letter free wealth, building insight every week. And it comes straight from me. 1000s of investors read it every week. Don't live below your means. Grow your means. Get It At gre letter.com Again, that's gre letter.com   Keith Weinhold  14:20   something interesting just happened when Wells Fargo released their housing forecast for the next two years. Let's discuss that between today and 2027 they expect the federal funds rate to drop by a full 1% but they don't expect mortgage rates to drop as much only about a quarter point drop over the next two years in the 30 year fixed rate. For next year, they expect home prices to rise three and a half percent, and then the year after 3.7%. looking down the road a couple years here, and this is sorced by Wells Fargo economics and the US Department of Labor and the FHFA and more. All right, so only a small reduction in mortgage rates and a pickup in home price appreciation, although still pretty moderate. Now you gotta take any interest rate prediction with a grain of salt, like I've told you here before. I personally, I do not forecast interest rates, and when you're looking at interest rate predictions, you are squarely looking at a waste of your time.   Keith Weinhold  15:34   Now, a recent Gallup poll wanted to find out what Americans consider to be the best long term investment. That's the question that the pollsters asked, what is the best long term investment? And the findings were that 16% said stocks. I mean, despite the fact that stocks only seem to make insiders wealthy, still somehow 16% of Americans consider stocks to be the best long term investments, a higher share of Americans, 23% said gold. That actually surprises me, that nearly one quarter of Americans say that gold is the best long term investment, when only about 10% of Americans own gold in the physical form, like bars or coins. And part of this could be driven by the recent hype, where the gold price has more than doubled just since last year, and it broke above $4,000 an ounce for the first time in history this month. All right, so 16% said stocks, 23% said gold. And what's number one in the Gallup poll for what Americans believe is the best long term investment? It's real estate. Ah, well, they got that right. That actually gives me a little more faith than Americans there. Now, when it comes to real estate investment, you know, there's this long running mantra or catchphrase out there that I really disagree with. I mean, you've certainly heard this before, but it just does not resonate with me. And that is, appreciation is just the icing on the cake. That's the catchphrase I am not feeling the vibe there. How in the heck is appreciation just the icing on the cake? The presumption, the inference here, is that cash flow is the main driver of an investment philosophy, and then if you just happen to get appreciation too, oh, well, that's a little sweetener. Like the mantra would say cash flow is the cake, the majority piece, and then appreciation since the icing, oh, that's only a little thing. No, that's misleading. You usually get more of a return from appreciation than you do cash flow.   Keith Weinhold  17:56   I mean, on, say, a 400k income property, what if you only get $200 of cash flow? That can happen? That's $2,400 a year. But instead, 5% appreciation on that property gives you $20,000 a year. That is almost 10x. I think what the icing on the cake, curious catchphrase means is that cash flow is important because it controls the mortgage. Well, then I think it's just better to say that appreciation is not an inconsequential thing. It's often the biggest thing. So is appreciation just the icing on the cake? No, it certainly is not. In fact, I'm going to talk more about that next week when I've got something special planned for you here on the show. What I'm going to do then is look at the ways real estate pays you five ways in a slow market, the real estate market is slow. If you look at it on a basis of transaction volume, say that you buy a property today and over the next year, you don't even get what Wells Fargo forecasts say you only get 2% appreciation and zero cash flow. Just break even on a monthly basis. I mean, there's surely some disappointing numbers, but just say that's what happens. Well, next week, I'm going to add up what your total rate of return would be even in this dour scenario, and I think that you are going to Marvel be flabbergasted at how profitable you are if you just got 2% appreciation and zero cash flow. That's next week.    Keith Weinhold  19:36   As far as today, I'm about to bring in a super smart guest that hasn't been on the show here in a few years. He's usually a fellow faculty member on the real estate guys invest or summit at sea. But he wasn't there with me this year, so we met up in Anchorage. Instead, we're talking about changes to commercial real estate that market, and the opportunities that you might be able to find there from Industrial land, an activity that well generates noise, like Bitcoin mining operations and growing data centers with the increased use of AI. And as you listen, see if you know what I mean about how he feels professorial in his approach, and I mean that in the best possible way you can learn from him. He's from Ottawa, Canada, an international conversation coming up next. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to Episode 577, of get rich education.   Keith Weinhold  20:34   If you're scrolling for quality real estate and finance info today, yeah, it can be a mess. You hit paywalls, pop ups, push alerts, Cookie banners. It's like the internet is playing defense against you. Not so fun. That's why it matters to get clean, free content that actually adds no hype value to your life. This is the golden age of quality email newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor. It's direct, and it gets to the point, because even the word abbreviation is too long, my letter takes less than three minutes to read, and it leaves you feeling sharp and in the know about real estate investing, this is paradigm shifting material, and when you start the letter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate video, course, completely free as well. It's called the Don't quit your Daydream letter. It wires your mind for wealth, and it couldn't be simpler to get visit gre letter.com while it's fresh in your head, take a moment to do it now at gre letter.com Visit gre letter.com   Keith Weinhold  21:46   the same place where I get my own mortgage loans is where you can get yours. Ridge lending group and MLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than anyone because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. Start your prequel and even chat with President chailey Ridge personally while it's on your mind, start at Ridge lending group.com, that's Ridge lending group.com,   Tarek El Moussa  22:19   what's up? Everyone. This is hgtvs Tariq al Musa. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.   Keith Weinhold  22:27   Hey, it's great to welcome back a longtime industry friend. He's a senior partner at y street capital. He owns a development company that's active in nine US states and two Canadian provinces, and he's the host of the real estate espresso podcast. Hey, it's great to have back. It's been a few years. Victor Menasce, great to be here. Keith, well, you know what's different? I mean, we were together doing some sightseeing around Anchorage, Alaska. You I and your wife here just a few weeks ago. That was great to have you. And then you had a nice Alaskan cruise after that. It was lovely. It was great to spend time with you in person, where you and I have spent time together at conferences all around the nation. So thank you for that. Yeah, it was great to do some fun stuff and like, Oh, hey, this guy knows a world outside of just talking about cap rates all the time. So Victor, the commercial side is pretty dynamic, and it sure has been lately with all the changes that we've had in the world, really starting with the pandemic almost six years ago, now, that includes the industrial space and how the need for warehousing and storage has changed. So from a real estate perspective, tell us about what you're seeing there.    Victor Menasce  23:41   We're seeing a lot of changes. Of course, there's a lot of uncertainty that's been injected by the current administration in Washington in terms of international trade. But even if you put that aside the flow of goods from wherever they're manufactured to the end customer, that flow is still there. It's one of these things that often creates inefficiencies, especially as you start to think about really optimizing the overall cost. You know, if you think about what inventory costs you to have on a retail floor where you might be renting that retail space at, I don't know, 55 $60 a square foot, and it's occupying very, very expensive real estate, if you can instead put that in a warehouse that's maybe at 10 to $15 a square foot. Oh, but wait a minute, you've got a 27 or a 35 or a 40 foot ceiling height, and you're stacking it seven to nine levels high. Really, the cost of that inventory has gone way, way down because you're putting it much less expensive real estate, right? Okay, so here is one of the efficiencies of a retailer doing e tail instead of brick and mortar retail, absolutely. And you know, we often see situations where the last mile, you know, we want to get that instant gratification as a consumer, but we don't necessarily want to be having to drive to that retail space. And we don't that's. Supplier doesn't necessarily want to pay Amazon for warehousing that particular product. So often, the fulfillment is done locally, that last mile Logistics is extremely important. That's putting a lot of pressure on this category of product that has traditionally been called Flex industrial. These are those places in the industrial park that you might see an electrician or a landscaping company or a plumber or anyone like that that has an office at the front of 14 or 18 foot Bay at the back and a bit of inventory. A lot of that product right now is being pulled off the market for many different reasons. Some of that's just disappearing and that land is getting repurposed for residential. Some of it's disappearing because people are putting gyms and pickleball courts and things like that and those types of products. Some of it's disappearing because people with exotic car collections want to use that space for a man cave. There's many different things that are demanding that particular product, and there's very little of it getting built. So that's another area right now that is under a lot of pressure. On the demand side, not a lot of new supply and rents are going up much, much faster than they otherwise should be. Talk to us more about the industrial space from the supplydemand perspective, what do people want and what do people need? It varies widely. There are companies that are in manufacturing, they will often look to refresh their investment in equipment. They may not have the capital, so they will sometimes do a sale, lease back of their building, of their facilities, so that they can then repurpose some of that capital onto into the equipment side, so that they can maybe modernize their manufacturing. That's another area where we see significant shifts happening. In industrial we also see a lot in logistics, where the most efficient way to move goods is a 200 year old technology called rail, and it's still alive and well. I mean, if you think about the cost of shipping a container across the country, you're going to spend about two cents per ton mile to move that by rail, or about 10 cents per ton mile to do it by truck. So that's a five times difference in price. That means a container from Los Angeles to New York is going to cost you about $1,400 if you're moving it by rail, or about $7,500 if you're moving it by truck. But if you're now part of the rail system, there's now logistics that you have to worry about at either end. And so if you want to make all of that work, those transfer hubs become extremely important, and there's just not a lot of them,    Keith Weinhold  27:38   okay, so it might only cost 1/5 as much per ton mile to move a good over rail as it does road. But you're sort of talking about the logistical challenge of, oh, getting it that last mile from the rail Terminus to the end user.   Victor Menasce  27:53    absolutely. And there can be a lot of cost associated with that last mile. So if you can solve that problem for the logistics companies and lower their cost for that last mile. That's got significant value, and that's another demand for industrial land. And very few cities are adding industrial land to their master plan. You know, warehouses don't vote, so they don't tend to take other land and zone industrial In fact, if anything, it goes the other way. There's a lot of pressure to take land that was zoned industrial and rezone it for commercial or for residential. In fact, we see that in a lot of cities.    Keith Weinhold  28:30   Now, you the listener, if your entrepreneurial wheels are turning, you can see the opportunity for, Hey, can I get in and help solve the problem in that last mile demand creatively. How do I think I could get in? How do I think I could do that, as long as that demand is sustainable? Victor, when we talk about industrial real estate, like we are here as real estate investors, one of the things that we often think about is site selection. Tell us more about that through the industrial lens   Victor Menasce  28:58   I think there's a couple things that matter. Number one, you can't pay too much for it. It's got to be at the right price. So you've got to be thinking about, you know, we always do what's called residual land value analysis and and that happens in residential, commercial, every single asset class, everyone works backwards from the answer to the question. So the answer is, here's how much profit I need to generate. Here's my capital cost. Here's, you know, you keep backing up and you say, well, now what's left over? That's what I can afford to pay for the land. So you always gotta be working backwards from the answer to the question. And this is no different. We do this in industrial as well. So you gotta make sure that that situation where the numbers work. Number two, you've gotta make sure that there is the right supply, demand dynamics. Got to make sure that the property itself is not contaminated. That can be a liability. If that was once a heavy industry site, then there could be contamination. You want to make sure that that's somebody else's problem, not yours, or if it is your problem, that you can mitigate it where the cost is bounded. So you got to. You know, look at all of these things together. And then, of course, there has to be good connectivity, good access to freeways, to major arterial roads, good access to rail. If you can get a Rails per on the property, even better. But even if you can't, as long as you have good access to major roads. You know, I always look at this through the lens of product design, where you're designing a product for a very specific customer. And so it's really, it starts with the end customers need in mind. And it's not a speculative process. It's really understanding who that customer is designing a product for them and making sure that you're delivering it at the right price. So it's always, always working backwards from the answer   Keith Weinhold  29:43   nowwhen we think about site selection and geography of where we're putting this real estate cities are often located on a body of water, like a bay or a river, often runs through a city, but yet you think of industrial use. Land is not your priciest land, but yet you think of a city center as your priciest land. Oftentimes, where do you put the industrial real estate with regard to the city center? I usually think of it as far outside of that. But are there other trade offs or nuances there?   Victor Menasce  31:11   it can be. You know, it's a question of whether you're doing a greenfield project or an infill project. If the land was previously zoned industrial and you're now just redeveloping it, that can make a lot of sense. If it is a greenfield project where you're looking to build new then, yeah, it's probably going to be in the outskirts, because that's where you're going to get the best land cost. And then, of course, you got to be thinking about what the end product is, and it what's it going to cost you to get it where it needs to be. Most of these projects are built slab on grade, which means that the surface has to be suitable for that sort of building. The land might be cheap, but if you've got to bring in half a million yards of gravel to get the site where it needs to be, it might not look cheap anymore, because you could import so much material. So you have to think of the cost of the land in a shovel ready context, because you can spend an awful lot of money moving dirt, moving gravel, things like that that will be necessary for an industrial project. So when we look at land for that product, we're always looking at it through the lens of, is it in a floodplain? Is it high enough ground? Is it drain? Well, all of those things that come into the cost of preparing the site to accept that kind of a building.   Keith Weinhold  32:23    Now, when we think about what goes on in an industrial space in your mind's eye, you might think of an asphalt plant, or you might think of the noise in some rumbling concrete trucks. With regard to that, what are your thoughts about nimbyism? Do you see much, not in my backyardism among communities with industrial real estate.    Victor Menasce  32:44   Oh, absolutely, without a doubt. And oftentimes that's one of the reasons why industrial land often gets pushed out away from those residential zones. So once you're outside the radius of people who can object, then there's no objection. So that's one way to solve it, and often a good way to solve it, by the way, but you also have to be mindful the fact that if there is potential contaminants coming off of that site, you don't want to be near a body of water that can carry it down into an aquifer and so on. So you've got to be thinking through containment issues. You've got to be thinking through noise propagation issues. There's been, in fact, a lot of issues with data centers, where the air handling and the the air conditioning systems right generate a lot of noise, and that noise often carries over very large distances. And you know, we're talking noise levels that would be very offensive to most homeowners. Some people have had to move because the noise levels have just been so continuous.    Keith Weinhold  33:42   I like the way you put that Victor. It's sort of like, yes, industrial parks are built outside the radius of the loudest objectors. That's right where they're going to go. But that's really the way that it is sometimes when we think about more contemporary uses for how we use industrial real estate today. You touched on data centers, also Bitcoin miners, you know, these are some of the things that generate noise. So what are some of the considerations with those two?   Victor Menasce  34:06    If you're looking at a data center, they consume a lot of power and they generate a lot of heat. The most efficient way to get rid of heat is with water. And that sounds a little bit strange, but you think about it this way, if you heat a molecule of water by one degree. I'm going to actually give you the textbook definition of a calorie. You take that water and you heat it by one degree, that'll consume one calorie of water. That's the definition of a calorie. And if you take it from the liquid state to the vapor state, just that phase change at 212 degrees Fahrenheit, or 100 degrees centigrade, that phase change is going to consume 500 calories. So you're getting rid of tremendous amount of heat by evaporating water, and that's why data centers consume so much water, is because they evaporate the water. That's the way they get rid of the heat. They evaporate it into the atmosphere. And that's how they get rid of the heat. It's the most efficient way to do it, but it consumes a lot of water resources. And then, of course, you've got to have the power to get into the data center, and a lot of places don't have the electric infrastructure to provide what's needed on a sustained basis. So you need not just good power, you need good power redundancy. So if there's a power failure here, you've got maybe redundant paths. So if one transmission line goes down, you've got alternate paths to keep the data center running. And you need the same thing also with communication, so multiple redundant fiber pathways in and out of the data center. So all of these things come into site selection. And then if you got all of that right, you got to overcome the neighborhood objections.    Keith Weinhold  35:45   Yes, that's right. We're doing a little science here with Victor Menasce, experienced international developer, and Victor when we think about industrial real estate, and we're here on an investing show. You know, maybe an investor sees potential in data center real estate or something like that. So for the individual investor, what can they do? Can they do anything individually? Are there funds to invest in, to either avoid or be attracted, to tell us about how the investor can get in?    Victor Menasce  36:15   We're not active in data centers. We're active more on the industrial side. I know the existence of data center funds. I know, for example, Kevin O'Leary, very famous Shark Tank, is a major investor in data centers. If you look him up, there might be some potentials there. Many of the major players in artificial intelligence, Oracle right now is taking on a boatload of debt to build data centers for open AI, so they're going to both build and operate those data centers. And I don't know where they're getting their capital, but they're getting a lot of it, or at least that's what's been announced publicly. Data centers require a lot of at least at that scale, require tremendous amount of infrastructure. We're talking hundreds of acres. We're not talking a small warehouse here that might be a million square feet. We're talking big, big acreage for those scale projects and for more localized projects. Yeah, there are smaller data centers, but they're not that economical to run. So it's usually the large ones that are the most cost efficient.   Keith Weinhold  37:16   Well, two things Victor is there anything else about industrial real estate? Our listeners should know maybe something I did not think about asking you and then tell our audience how they can learn more about what you're doing.    Victor Menasce  37:27   We see opportunity in particular. We think of it almost like a covered land play. We're very active in the industrial outdoor storage space where there is need for things to be stored outdoors. It might be landscaping companies that want to buy materials by the truckload. It might be car dealerships that have an excess of inventory. It might be boat and RV storage. There's many different uses for secured outdoor storage, and these are products that are designed very specifically for customers that have those needs. And as a covered land play, frankly, some of the best returns that are available in the marketplace. We've looked at a number of different things, and this is where we're placing majority of our energy right now as a development company is in that space, because we see it as an underserved segment of the market where there is not a lot of institutional money that's come into the play yet, so we're very active in that space.    Keith Weinhold  38:22   And how can our audience learn more about what you're doing   Victor Menasce  38:25   best is to reach out to us at y Street, capital com. Be happy to have if folks want to learn more about our projects. There's a place where they can sign up on the website to get more information. And love to have you as guests or as listeners to the real estate espresso podcast, and that's a daily show, seven days a week, so love to have you as a listener for that show as well.    Keith Weinhold  38:46   And that's the letter Y, Y Street, capital.com,Victor Mesance, it's been enlightening as always. Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.    Victor Menasce  38:55   Thank you so much.   Keith Weinhold  39:02   Oh yeah, good stuff from Victor as always. Another thing that he, I and his wife did in Anchorage when he was here recently is visit, well, it was not an AI data center, but we went to a mint that sells gold bars, nuggets and bullion. I really just looked. It was fun to look with Victor and actually pick up and hold gold nuggets, something that you cannot do online. I didn't have any intent to buy anything with the run up in precious metals prices. I made my last purchase of those in the middle of last year. So a year and four months ago today, I hear about lots of people rushing to buy precious metals. Now, amidst this big price run up and the run up might still have a ways to go, but no, the time to buy was like a year and a half ago or more. It's not now getting caught up in the euphoria this sort of exhaltation where you're paying double the price.   Keith Weinhold  40:03   next week here on the show, I've got more that I want to share with you on today's opportunity in new build rental property. How real estate pays five ways in a slow market, which is just fascinating. And I've got a GRE live event to tell you about next week as well, and more, lots of intriguing wealth building material here in future weeks, and then sometime after that, my own right hand assistant here at GRE is going to come out of the show and ask me some of your listener questions. It's the first time you'll hear her voice on the show. But more importantly, get my answers to your investing questions. If you'd like your question answered on a listener questions episode down the road, as always, you can write into us at get rich education.com/contact, that's get rich education.com/contact, until next week, I'm your HOST. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.   Unknown Speaker  41:02   Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively,   Keith Weinhold  41:30   The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth. Building, get richeducation.com  

Vice President of Lending for Team Hochberg at Homeside Financial and host of WGN's “Home Sweet Home Chicago” David Hochberg joins Wendy Snyder (in for Bob Sirott) to talk about the increase in refinancing rates and an update on the Cook County Tax Bill. David hosts “Home Sweet Home Chicago” on Saturdays from 10am to […]

Get ready for Week 9 with previews and picks for all the games from around the Suburban Life coveragea area.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/friday-night-drive--3534096/support.

For 15 years Toni Preckwinkle has been Cook County's Commission President. An impressive run and she has done impressive work. Currently, Chicago is on the front line of a power struggle between the federal governments deploying ICE agents and National Guard troops in American Cities. As of this show's release, a federal just has blocked the deployment of National Guard troops in Chicago. President Preckwinkle has called the possible deployments, “a dangerous and reckless abuse of power” and “it's fear tactics it and illegal use of power dressed up as law and order.” She also spoke out in support of a state court judge's ruling that ICE agents can not make arrests inside Chicago courthouses. She said, “ICE enforcement has become increasingly violent, inhumane and unlawful. These tactics are unacceptable and un-American.” Last week she signed an executive order banning ICE agents from working in or around any Cook County property, including staging areas or for making arrests. Toni Preckwinkle is a leader. Listen to her updates on how she is delivering good government in Chicago. Read Cook County Commission President Toni Preckwinkle's statements about a judge's decision to so far, not allow National Guard troops to patrol Chicago's streets and her stand on ICE agents making arrests outside of Cook County courthouses. https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/ILCOOK/bulletins/3f76d9c   Watch a press conference with Illinois Governor J.D. Pritzker, Chicago Mayor Brad Johnson and Commission President Toni Preckwinkle as they discuss potential National Guard deployment in Chicago and speak out against recent arrests by ICE agents. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3CjBOXupGY GoodGovernmentShow.com Thanks to our sponsors: The Royal Cousins: How Three Cousins Could Have Stopped A World War by Jim Ludlow Ourco Good News For Lefties (and America!) - Daily News for Democracy (Apple Podcasts | Spotify) How to Really Run a City Leading Iowa: Good Government in Iowa's Cities (Apple Podcasts | Spotify) Executive Producers: David Martin, David Snyder, Jim Ludlow Host/Reporter: David Martin Producers: David Martin, Jason Stershic Editor: Jason Stershic

This episode on TifftheTruth is called, “Please Don't Judge Me!” Tuff Tiff will be having an informative conversation with Natalia Moore who is running for Cook County 17th SubCircuit Judge. Let's learn and grow together!

U.S. District Judge Sara L. Ellis has ordered ICE officers in Chicago to begin wearing body cameras after videos surfaced showing agents using tear gas and other forceful tactics against protesters. The ruling follows concerns that previous limits on riot control weapons were being ignored. Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker praised the order, while a Cook County judge separately barred ICE from courthouse arrests. Subscribe to our newsletter to stay informed with the latest news from a leading Black-owned & controlled media company: https://aurn.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Get ready for Week 8 with previews and picks for all the games from around the Suburban Life coverage area.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/friday-night-drive--3534096/support.

Today, Hunter was joined by Journalist Dan Hinkel to discuss his newest piece about the Conviction Integrity Unit in Cook County. While CIUs are an imperfect vessel to right the wrongs of a wrongful conviction, they still serve an essential function when they operate properly. The problem is since Eileen O'Neil Burke took over as the new State Attorney in Cook County the CIU hasn't exonerated a single person. Dan joins the show to help us understand how that has happened.   Guest: Dan Hinkel, Senior Reporter, Injustice Watch   Resources: Find Dan's Work Here https://www.injusticewatch.org/author/danhinkel/       Contact Hunter Parnell:                                 Publicdefenseless@gmail.com  Instagram @PublicDefenselessPodcast Twitter                                                                 @PDefenselessPod www.publicdefenseless.com  Subscribe to the Patreon www.patreon.com/PublicDefenselessPodcast  Donate on PayPal https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=5KW7WMJWEXTAJ Donate on Stripe https://donate.stripe.com/7sI01tb2v3dwaM8cMN Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show! https://app.reduct.video/o/eca54fbf9f/p/d543070e6a/share/c34e85194394723d4131/home  

In this podcast episode we want to introduce you to our BCEN friend, Carol Tulley. Dr. Carol Tulley has been an emergency nurse for over 30 years, starting out at the Cook County Trauma Unit in Chicago and now serving as the Trauma Coordinator at a Level II trauma center in the western suburbs. Throughout her career she's worn many hats—staff nurse, educator, and leader—but trauma has always been her true passion. She teaches and directs the Trauma Nurse Core Course, holds several specialty certifications-including the TCRN, and has shared her expertise through presentations and posters at conferences across the country. From the halls of Cook County hospital to her role as a trauma coordinator and educator, Carol's nursing career is all about leading, teaching, and creating a lasting impact. She will share advice on how to create momentum and build open roads of communication. This episode is called, "Creating a legacy of greenlights in trauma care." Carol can be contacted at Facebook @CarolJaffeTulley and Instagram @C_tulley and LinkedIn @CarolTulley BCEN & Friends Podcast is presented by the Board of Certification for Emergency Nursing. We invite you to visit us online at bcen.org for additional information about emergency nursing certification, education, and much more. Episode introduction created using elevenlabs.io

Mike Stephen learns about the effort to end politically drawn voting maps in Illinois from Chicago Magazine writer Ted McClelland, discusses the slowdown in overturning wrongful convictions in Cook County with Injustice Watch reporter Dan Hinkel, and highlights the important work of Share Our Spare in supporting young children and families with interim executive director Jesseca Rhymes. Also, help out Chicago street vendors!

Get ready for Week 7 with previews and picks for all the games from around the Suburban Life area.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/friday-night-drive--3534096/support.

WBBM political editor Geoff Buchholz reports attorneys are asking Cook County's chief judge to issue an order blocking warrantless arrests outside courthouses.

Get ready for Week 6 with previews and picks for all the games from around the Suburban Life coverage area.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/friday-night-drive--3534096/support.

WBBM political editor Geoff Buchholz reports attorneys are asking Cook County's chief judge to issue an order blocking warrantless arrests outside courthouses.

The Urban Coyote Research Project is an ongoing 25-year project studying coyotes in the Chicagoland area. Join Chris Anchor, wildlife biologist for the Forest Preserves of Cook County, as he discusses his 40-year career in wildlife management and the insights we've gained from this long-term research project. Learn more about Urban Wildlife: Research at the Forest Preserves of Cook CountyThe Urban Coyote Research ProjectIDNR's Living with Wildlife WebsiteShare your own Everyday ObservationWas there something about this topic we didn't cover? See something cool in nature? Let us know! Send us your question or share your everyday nature observation with us at go.illinois.edu/EEconnect, and we may share it in a future blog or podcast.Questions? We'd love to hear from you!Abigail Garofalo aeg9@illinois.edu, Erin Garrett emedvecz@illinois.edu, Amy Lefringhouse heberlei@illinois.edu Subscribe to our NewsletterCheck out our BlogSee the Everyday Environment Archives

WBBM political editor Geoff Buchholz reports attorneys are asking Cook County's chief judge to issue an order blocking warrantless arrests outside courthouses.

Get ready for Week 5 with previews and picks for all the games from around the Suburban Life area.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/friday-night-drive--3534096/support.

Get ready for Week 5 with previews and picks for all the games from around the Suburban Life area.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/friday-night-drive--3534096/support.

Get ready for Week 5 with previews and picks for all the games from around the Suburban Life area.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/friday-night-drive--3534096/support.

Get ready for Week 5 with previews and picks for all the games from around the Suburban Life area.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/friday-night-drive--3534096/support.

Get ready for Week 5 with previews and picks for all the games from around the Suburban Life area.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/friday-night-drive--3534096/support.

Get ready for Week 5 with previews and picks for all the games from around the Suburban Life area.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/friday-night-drive--3534096/support.

In this episode, Sun-Times City Hall reporter Fran Spielman interviews downtown Ald. Brendan Reilly (42nd) who is now running for Cook County Board president. Reilly discusses his critiques of current County Board President Tony Preckwinkle, highlighting issues like the mismanagement of federal pandemic funds, 'failed social experiments' in the state's attorney's office, and the county's technological upgrade failures. He also underscores his belief that the county's budget has tripled with little to show for it and addresses his personal journey of quitting drinking and its positive impacts on his life. 

September 23, 2025 City Club event description: Speaker Cook County Sheriff Tom Dart Sheriff Tom Dart has dedicated his career to challenging injustice, fighting the violence plaguing our communities, and bringing new, thoughtful approaches to public service. After serving as a prosecutor and an Illinois state legislator, Sheriff Dart was elected by the people of […]

Michael Root shares how he builds value in Chicago multifamily, streamlines property management, and uses in-house contracting to boost efficiency.In this episode of RealDealChat, Jack sits down with Michael Root, co-founder of Root Property Group (RootPG.com), to discuss property management, multifamily acquisitions, and why Chicago remains both a challenging and rewarding market.Michael shares how his team handles everything from general contracting to property management in-house, which helps reduce costs, improve communication, and streamline renovations.Key takeaways from this conversation include:Why clear communication is the #1 challenge in property managementHow in-house contracting saves time & money vs outside vendorsThe efficiency of paying by the day vs per projectChicago's red tape & permitting process compared to suburbsThe value of mid-market multifamily (9–12 units) alongside 60+ unit developmentsTwo types of value-add strategies: heavy vs light renovationsWhy Cook County property taxes are the biggest challenge in underwriting dealsTechnology adoption in property management & leasing tools like ShowMojo

Six people who had been charged with crimes had their cases dismissed after they successfully completed Cook County's Drug Treatment Court program. Capping the intensive two-year program was a commencement ceremony in a Skokie courtroom Wednesday full of hugs, applause and speeches.

Get ready for Week 4 with previews and picks for all the games from around the Suburban Life coverage area.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/friday-night-drive--3534096/support.

Get ready for Week 4 with previews and picks for all the games from around the Suburban Life coverage area.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/friday-night-drive--3534096/support.

Get ready for Week 4 with previews and picks for all the games from around the Suburban Life coverage area.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/friday-night-drive--3534096/support.

Six people who had been charged with crimes had their cases dismissed after they successfully completed Cook County's Drug Treatment Court program. Capping the intensive two-year program was a commencement ceremony in a Skokie courtroom Wednesday full of hugs, applause and speeches.

Six people who had been charged with crimes had their cases dismissed after they successfully completed Cook County's Drug Treatment Court program. Capping the intensive two-year program was a commencement ceremony in a Skokie courtroom Wednesday full of hugs, applause and speeches.

WBBM political editor Geoff Buchholz reports Cook County leaders have condemned ICE enforcement activities, including the shooting death of a man by agents in Franklin Park.

WBBM political editor Geoff Buchholz reports Cook County leaders have condemned ICE enforcement activities, including the shooting death of a man by agents in Franklin Park.

WBBM political editor Geoff Buchholz reports Cook County leaders have condemned ICE enforcement activities, including the shooting death of a man by agents in Franklin Park.

Welcome back to The Allegendly Podcast, the podcast where truth plays hide-and-seek and our hosts are on the hunt. Each episode, we tackle a random theme with five tantalizing “facts", but here's the twist: not all of them are real. It's up to our hosts to sniff out the truth, call out the fakes, and maybe even surprise themselves along the way.This week's episode dives into the murky depths of Operation Greylord, one of the most explosive judicial corruption investigations in U.S. history. We're zooming in on the undercover years of Terrence Hake, who posed as a shady private defense attorney in Chicago's Cook County courts. Bribes, wiretaps, fake cases, and courtroom betrayals—this chapter of Greylord is as cinematic as it is controversial.Five “facts” are on the table:- Did Hake really pay off judges with marked bills?- Was a racetrack meeting the key to cracking the case?- Did one courtroom have a hidden microphone planted by the FBI?- Was a fake defendant created just to test a corrupt judge?- Did Hake's cover nearly get blown by a real mob enforcer?Tune in as our hosts debate, dissect, and decide what's real, what's fake, and what's just too wild to be true.Truth is stranger than fiction—but only if you can spot it.Subscribe, like, and drop your guesses in the comments. Did you spot the fakes before the hosts did?

Earlier this week, the Department of Homeland Security launched “Operation Midway Blitz,” a surge in immigration raids across Chicago and Illinois. WTTW anchor Joanna Hernandez tells us the timing of this campaign alongside Mexican Independence Day celebrations is purposeful and a repeat of history for Chicago. Injustice Watch reporter Kelly Garcia also joins us with a new investigation into the head of Cook County's juvenile detention center and the results of Cook County's chief judge election. Good News: Pullman Food Truck Festival Want some more City Cast Chicago news? Then make sure to sign up for our Hey Chicago newsletter.  Follow us @citycastchicago You can also text us or leave a voicemail at: 773 780-0246 Learn more about the sponsors of this Sept. 12 episode: The Joffrey Ballet Steppenwolf Theatre Kidney Cancer Association Chicago Association of Realtors Window Nation MUBI Become a member of City Cast Chicago. Interested in advertising with City Cast? Find more info HERE

For the first time in 24 years, Cook County is getting a new chief judge. Timothy C. Evans lost reelection on Wednesday. He was the longest serving chief judge and the first African American elected to the post.

For the first time in 24 years, Cook County is getting a new chief judge. Timothy C. Evans lost reelection on Wednesday. He was the longest serving chief judge and the first African American elected to the post.

For the first time in 24 years, Cook County is getting a new chief judge. Timothy C. Evans lost reelection on Wednesday. He was the longest serving chief judge and the first African American elected to the post.

From May 11th through August 30th, the Cook County Department of Public Health says suburban Cook County recorded 25 cases of West Nile virus. Local health officials encourage people to use EPA-registered insect repellents containing 20-percent to 50-percent DEET.

From May 11th through August 30th, the Cook County Department of Public Health says suburban Cook County recorded 25 cases of West Nile virus. Local health officials encourage people to use EPA-registered insect repellents containing 20-percent to 50-percent DEET.

From May 11th through August 30th, the Cook County Department of Public Health says suburban Cook County recorded 25 cases of West Nile virus. Local health officials encourage people to use EPA-registered insect repellents containing 20-percent to 50-percent DEET.

From May 11th through August 30th, the Cook County Department of Public Health says suburban Cook County recorded 25 cases of West Nile virus. Local health officials encourage people to use EPA-registered insect repellents containing 20-percent to 50-percent DEET.

From May 11th through August 30th, the Cook County Department of Public Health says suburban Cook County recorded 25 cases of West Nile virus. Local health officials encourage people to use EPA-registered insect repellents containing 20-percent to 50-percent DEET.

Chicago Way w/John Kass (09/01/25): This week, former Cook County and federal prosecutor Bob Milan joins John Kass & Jeff Carlin to talk about his original plan from 10 years ago to bring in National Guard troops to tamp down the weekly number of shootings in Chicago and how this strategy might work today. Plus, […]

Today, Hunter was joined once again by Sharone Mitchell Jr. and Sharlyn Grace of the Cook County Public Defender Office. As we have already seen in Los Angeles and D.C., President Trump is threatening to deploy the national guard to Chicago to combat “crime.” Today, Sharone and Sharlyn joined the show to discuss what is actually happening on the ground in Chicago, what the city needs to continue improving public safety, and what Trump's threats are actually about.   Guest: Sharone Mitchell Jr., Chief Public Defender, Cook County, Chicago, Illinois Sharlyn Grace, Deputy Public Defender for Policy, Cook County, Chicago, Illinois   Resources: Liberals and Centrists Biting Off on the Crime Issue https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/bowser-trump-police-takeover-lower-dc-crime-national-guard-ice-rcna227582 Reports on Cash Bail https://loyolaccj.org/pretrial-fairness-act https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/bail-reform-and-public-safety https://reason.org/wp-content/uploads/the-effects-of-cash-bail-on-crime-and-court-appearances.pdf Crime in Chicago https://counciloncj.org/crime-trends-in-u-s-cities-mid-year-2025-update/ https://www.chicago.gov/city/en/sites/vrd/home/violence-victimization.html     Contact Hunter Parnell:                                 Publicdefenseless@gmail.com  Instagram @PublicDefenselessPodcast Twitter                                                                 @PDefenselessPod www.publicdefenseless.com  Subscribe to the Patreon www.patreon.com/PublicDefenselessPodcast  Donate on PayPal https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=5KW7WMJWEXTAJ Donate on Stripe https://donate.stripe.com/7sI01tb2v3dwaM8cMN Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show! https://app.reduct.video/o/eca54fbf9f/p/d543070e6a/share/c34e85194394723d4131/home  

Greg Bishop gets to the latest in gun ban litigation with plaintiffs challenging Cook County's ban asking the U.S. Supreme Court to take the case. This comes as the statewide ban a district judge found unconstitutional is cued up for appeals' court arguments next month.

Sharone R. Mitchell Jr., Cook County Public Defender, joins Lisa to discuss President Trump’s executive order ending cashless bail. Mitchell shares the details about the cashless bail system, highlighting how it differs from the previous bail system, and how many offenders go on to commit further crimes after being let out.

Looking back, even just this year, Cultivating Place has had multiple conversations with plantspeople from around the country about the inspirational plants from, and places known as, prairies. An iconic and beloved ecosystem strongly identified with the American Midwest. As summer warms and mellows into its Augustness, we're in conversation this week with two humans who are cultivating their place with the specific purpose of keeping native extant prairie alive and thriving. Stephen Packard and Eriko Kojima of the Somme Prairie Grove Nature Preserve in Illinois join CP today to share more about their prairie place. In the summer of 2021, the Forest Preserves of Illinois' Cook County Board of Commissioners approved a resolution recognizing Somme Prairie Grove as the 27th dedicated Illinois Nature Preserve managed by the Forest Preserves of Cook County. Part of the Somme Preserves located in Northbrook in north Cook County, Somme Prairie Grove offers 85 acres of high-quality mesic savanna and dry-mesic woodland. The site supports many conserved native plant species, and savanna and shrubland breeding birds. Somme Prairie Grove has benefited from a vibrant stewardship community—led by the North Branch Restoration Project—since 1980 and represents one of the oldest and most comprehensive savanna and woodland restorations in the Midwest. The recovery of Somme Prairie Grove is credited to the longstanding participation of this cohort of dedicated and talented community volunteers, including both the volunteer who kicked it all off, Stephen Packard, and a volunteer since 2015, Eriko. In this back-to-school moment here in the U.S. let us remember there is always more to learn, and we owe a great deal to the teachers – be they 4th grade teachers, nobel prize winning professors, other big G gardeners, prairies or other beloved ecosystems of our places. Listen in - and Enjoy! Cultivating Place now has a donate button! We thank you for listening over the years, and we hope you'll continue to support Cultivating Place. We can't thank you enough for making it possible for this young program to grow and engage in even more conversations like these. The show is available as a podcast on SoundCloud and iTunes. To read more and for many more photos, please visit www.cultivatingplace.com.