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Discover powerful strategies to maximize your rental property returns and minimize costly vacancies. Learn how top investors are transforming their approach to property management, from tenant retention techniques to smart staffing solutions. Key Insights: Master the art of keeping great tenants and reducing turnover Understand when to scale your property management approach Explore innovative investment opportunities beyond traditional real estate Market Trends Spotlight: Rental demand is on the rise Emerging investment options offer unique wealth-building potential Strategic diversification is key to long-term financial success Explore alternative investment opportunities like sustainable teak forestry - a generational wealth strategy that offers: Low entry point Long-term growth potential International diversification Whether you're a seasoned investor or just starting out, these insights will help you make more informed, profitable real estate decisions. Resources: Learn more about the teak tree investment opportunity at Gremarketplace.com/teak Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/555 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREinvestmentcoach.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I'd be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE' to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai    Keith Weinhold  0:01   Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, learn how to reduce a giant operational expense that you'll have over time your tenant vacancy and turnover, including how many units you must own before you hire your own on site property manager as your employee. Whatever happened to agent commissions in light of last year's NAR settlement, then a timely update on teak tree investing today on Get Rich Education.   Mid South home buyers. I mean, they're total pros, with over two decades as the nation's highest rated turnkey provider. Their empathetic property managers use your ROI as their North Star. So it's no wonder that smart investors just keep lining up to get their completely renovated income properties like it's the newest iPhone. They're headquartered in Memphis and have globally attractive cash flows and A plus rating with the Better Business Bureau and now over 5000 houses renovated their zero markup on maintenance. Let that sink in, and they average a 98.9% occupancy rate, while their average renter stays more than three and a half years. Every home they offer has brand new components, a bumper to bumper, one year warranty, new 30 year roofs. And wait for it, a high quality renter. Remember that part and in an astounding price range, 100 to 180k I've personally toured their office and their properties in person in Memphis. Get to know Mid South. Enjoy cash flow from day one. Start yourself right now at mid southhomebuyers.com that's mid south homebuyers.com   You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.   Welcome to GRE from Manchester, New Hampshire to Manchester, England and across 188 nations worldwide, I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are back inside one of America's longest running and most listened to shows on real estate investing. This is get rich education. What's all that stuff really mean? I'm just another slack jawed and snaggletooth podcaster, a shaved mammal with a microphone. I'm joining you from here in London, England this week for the first time ever on the show. More on that later. Let's talk about reducing the biggest operational expense that you're ever going to have as a real estate investor, at least the one that you can exert a good measure of control over. That is reducing your tenant vacancy and turnover, that constant menace. Now, I suppose you might say that property tax is your biggest ongoing ops expense, but you've got less control over your property tax rate. So yeah, we're talking about increasing your net income by lowering your VIMTUM operating expenses. Vacancy is the V in that acronym. This is big because this can make or break your ability to have your property create positive cash flow and getting tenant turnover right both increases your income and reduces your expenses. It is springtime currently, and it's soon going to be summer, so it is the right time to talk about this. It's when there is more tenant turnover. The goal here is for you to really move the dial in increase the likelihood that your tenant is going to renew their lease. Now, sure if your tenant gets a new job out of town, they're going to move out. But if they're moving because of too many maintenance issues, well then that's something that you could have fixed. The average tenancy duration in the US over time is two to three years. And of course, that's going to be longer in single family rentals and shorter in apartments. And how long your tenant stays is driven by three factors, the price of your unit, the quality of your maintenance and the quality of your management. Let's say that your tenant moves out. To be conservative, that your vacancy period is two months between tenants. Okay, that's the turnover and the time to lease. It two months is a somewhat longish vacancy period. But come on, it happens sometimes, especially if you're going to make upgrades between tenancies and you're busy with other things in your life, if you have a move out every year at that rate, well, that is too often. That would amount. To a vacancy percentage of 14% you might think it's 17% but it isn't, because it's a 12 month vacancy plus two vacant months, all right, but if instead that tenant moves out every two years, that's just 8% vacancy, and every three years that's just 5% vacancy. Of course, if you keep your vacancy period to only one month rather than two, you can have all those numbers. You can really see how you are increasing your income by retaining the tenant. The most vital thing for you to keep in mind is that fast quality maintenance and good communication are by far the best forms of customer service that a property manager can provide, so prompt, quality maintenance. That's a retention strategy. Being a proactive helps. One strategy you can engage in is to reach out to the tenants two months before their lease is set to renew, and that's the time to give them the new lease price and ask them if they intend to stay. If they say, No, they're not, ask them why. And occasionally, you can sway them if there's been a misunderstanding in your relationship, for example, a lingering maintenance issue that hasn't been addressed, and perhaps they didn't bother to contact you about that, if nothing else, I think I mentioned this to you one time before offering a small reward, like a gift card helps. I mean, creating this sense of reciprocation is really one of the best retention tactics out there, even if the items being reciprocated aren't anywhere near equal value, like the value of a 12 month lease versus you giving them, say, a $50 gift card now, say you've tried those strategies, and none of that works, and your tenant does decide to leave, perhaps 45 days from now, but you know that you've got time in your life to turn over the unit now, and You know that you're going to be really busy with other things in 45 days. One thing that you can do then is shift your strategy to pay the tenant. Say you can pay them as little as 10 or 20 bucks a day to leave early. This way they'll vacate during a period where you've got the time to devote to the vacancy and the turnover and the showings to prospective new tenants, and that way, it's not going to linger vacant as long now, a technique like this is a little similar to an eviction, where if a tenant has violated their lease or becomes non paying, without you having to go through the length of Your court driven formal eviction process, you can pay them a lump sum to leave early. Hopefully that's not your situation, but that can come up. And I think you've heard of it before. This is known as the Cash for Keys strategy. That means to get a tenant that's made some violation against their lease, and you want to have them vacate the unit sooner. This means that you get the keys in your hand and the right to enter when you pay them to leave, rather than having to go through the not so fun eviction process and see a tenant wants to avoid a formal eviction as well, because that goes on their record, and then it can make it tough for that tenant to get rental housing elsewhere. But I dislike the Cash for Keys strategy in order to hold off from a formal eviction, because what that does is that rewards a person that violated a lease, although we know that that might also shorten your economic vacancy period, and it could actually be economically beneficial to you, Cash for Keys. It's just not ethical, though. I know it might be tempting for you, the landlord, the cash for key strategy. It rewards societally immoral behavior. Now, of course, you might be using a professional property manager that does all of this stuff for you, like I do today, but still, these are often the best practices for your manager. And I started out self managing, just like a lot of real estate investors do in the beginning, and that's where I learned strategies and techniques like this for reducing your tenant vacancy and turnover. Now, here's a really interesting question that you may not have had to ask yourself yet, but you may down the road, if you've grown your portfolio to a certain size and you're serious about reducing your vacancy and turnover expense, it might be time to ask yourself one big question, and that is for your management and maintenance. Should you use contractors, or should you start to hire your own employees? Now, if you have a small portfolio, it won't be enough work for you to keep an employee busy, so you should go with contract. Contractors. On the other hand, if you have an apartment complex with on site property management, I would definitely recommend having a make ready crew on site, because it's just so easy for them to get to and from a job site. Now, you should still maintain relationships with contractors as a backup, of course, and you should also have specialists like plumbers, electricians and HVAC people ready to call now, most investors are small and they use off site management, but if you grow big enough someday, or maybe it's two day, the important point about employees is that you really need to stay on them, because every extra hour costs you. You don't want anyone out there who's thinking that speed isn't essential, because they're like, ah, you know, I get paid by the hour. Contractors, on the other hand, they quote you or your manager a job up front. So while an extra day hurts because it's one more day you can't lease the unit, it hurts less than it does if you have your own employees. One problem with contractors is they often can't start right away, and this tends to be more true if you're self managing. See if you use a professional manager. They might have their own in house people so you can leverage their employees without having to manage employees yourself, even if your manager brings in an off site contractor, like an electrician or a plumber. Well, that contractor probably gets a lot of business from your property manager, and they have some sense of loyalty to your property manager, therefore, they're incentivized to show up on time faster than if you're trying to self manage, say, your small portfolio of five properties, and you or your tenant are the ones that call the electrician or the plumber. Well, those contractors are going to be less likely to prioritize you and your infrequent requests, and this is just another reason that I like to employ professional management and not self manage. Now, virtually no new real estate investor is going to hire their own employees, and most are never going to at all. All right, but how do you know? How would you know when it's time to hire your own property manager or your own contractor, and have them on your own payroll and you are their boss, if you've got under 20 to 30 units, all right, typically third party property management or self management with contractors, that's going to make more sense, because having a full time, dedicated employee, it's just not financially justifiable. Below 20 or 30 units, you're not going to be able to keep that employee busy. And I'm generally talking about if you have one apartment building here, or a bunch of single family rentals, only if they're in small, close proximity to each other. What about if you grow up to 30 to 60 units? All right now you're in a gray area. If the property is something that's pretty management intensive, like high turnover, or you own an older building, or you generate a lot of work orders, or you're in a challenging area. Well, at 30 to 60 units, you might justify a part time on site person. So how that could practically work in this 30 to 60 unit gray area, what you can do is have a resident manager that gets free rent, plus perhaps a small stipend from you. Okay, so that's a strategy that you can play in this gray area zone. That way they can be responsive to tenant requests, and you can keep your vacancy and turnover costs down. All right, how about when you're going even bigger and you reach 60 to 100 units. Now you're in the range where a full time on site manager or a maintenance person, starts to make financial and operational sense, because here it's 60 to 100 units. Your staffing model, it might be that you have one full time manager, they do the leasing, the tenant relations, in the admin stuff, and you'll also have a second person, a full time maintenance tech if they're needed, all right? And the final tier here, if you reach more than 100 units, oh, okay, now it is standard for you to have a full on site team. You could be in the hundreds of units. So we're talking about a property manager, a leasing agent, a maintenance lead, a groundskeeper and sometimes also a part time assistant manager. So that's it. That's the hierarchy of how, based on your portfolio size and where they're located, how you can serve tenants well and reduce your vacancy and turnover expense. Yes. All right now, what are some things that can shift those thresholds, those unit counts? Well, high rent or luxury buildings, they often need on site staff at a smaller unit count, very low rent or section eight properties, they may need more intensive oversight, buildings that have amenities, like some of these newer apartment buildings that have a pool and a gym, okay, that can trigger some more staffing needs. And if you own multiple properties that are nearby to each other, well, then you can share employees across those properties. And you've got to look at local labor costs in places like New York City, northeastern New Jersey, parts of New England, Miami or LA, those high cost places. Then breaking even on staffing. That probably takes a bigger property than those numbers that I talked about. But here, we tend to invest in those investor advantage areas, the inland northeast, the South, in the southeast, in the Midwest. Now, if you've got, say, even 50 smaller properties, but they're scattered all over the place, in multiple states, well then of course, you're not going to hire employees. A good general metric to leave you with here is that one on site employee for every 50 to 80 units that you own in the same area, that is common, that is a common industry practice in market rate multifamily apartments right now, these are pretty timeless strategies I've been talking about with you here.    As for what's happening in The market lately, I continue to slowly get more optimistic about the long beleaguered apartment market. A few weeks ago, I talked about how there's finally been greater apartment rent increases, although those rent increases are still historically low. What recently we learned that apartments are seeing a longer duration of tenancy and today, per real page, every single one of the 50 largest apartment markets has posted month over month occupancy gains, and then that's somewhat commensurate with what we're seeing on the one to four unit side, because the home ownership rate has fallen. It just fell from 65.7% down to 65.1 quarter over quarter. Now that doesn't sound like much, but that's actually a substantial drop in the home ownership rate in just one quarter. And fewer homeowners means more renters. So this basically means that the percent of Americans, renting has gone up because you just take the flip side of those numbers. So the rentership rate has essentially risen from 34.3 up to 34.9 in just one quarter. Something that completely makes sense, because we all know that home ownership affordability, especially for that first time, home buyer is lower, more renters. Is good for rental property owners. It's bringing more rental demand, more occupancy and more future pressure on rising rents. Now I want to follow up with you on a story from last year that made a lot of waves in the larger real estate world, but not so much for real estate investors. You surely remember this. That is the NAR settlement that a lot of people thought would result in lower real estate agent fees. Lowered commissions were coming. That's what everybody thought last year. Stories about that were all over the place that realtor fees are about to shrink. What's happened since then? Well, not much realtor fees, they still haven't fallen in any significant way, although the settlement was more than a year ago and this went into effect nine months ago. So to back up for a moment, in case you missed it, what happened is that a group of sellers accused the NAR, the National Association of Realtors, of inflating home costs by letting buyer side and seller side agents communicate about commission rates on the MLS home database, which only agents can see. And a jury agreed, so the NAR settled the lawsuit for over $400 million in damages, and it barred agents from sharing commission rates on those MLS databases. So that was a huge change that was expected to extinguish the globally high five to 6% realtor fee in the United States, because global averages are between one and 3% so as a result, the US real estate industry, they were bracing themselves for up to a 30% drop in the commissions that Americans pay annually in fees. But the new rules. Things have been nothing other than a big nothing burger. It only took a matter of weeks, really, for most agents to realize, you know, what did the agents do? They just simply moved their conversations off the NAR website and over to phone, text and email. That's it. Yes, that's all they did. So since that time, the average commission for buyers agents has barely budged. It ticked down less than 110 of 1% so for example, it ticked down less than 500 bucks on a 500k home that's per Redfin. So agents still expect sellers to pay five to 6% now I'm not against agents. Not only can an agent guide you through the process, what they can do is get you a higher sale price than they could have otherwise, because they really know how to market and advertise your property and reach a greater pool of buyers, but their commission rates have hardly budged. And of course, here at GRE marketplace, we typically use a direct model where agent compensation isn't priced into your properties anyway.    To review what you've learned so far today, being proactive can help reduce your tenant vacancy and turnover expense and increase your income. Prompt, quality maintenance, that is a retention strategy in itself, as can having one on site employee for every 50 to 80 apartment units. And one year later, changes at the NIR really haven't reduced aging commissions appreciably. I'm coming to you from London, England today, taking in all the top sites, Buckingham Palace and watching the changing of the guard over there, Big Ben a Thames river cruise and the London Bridge, which is actually called Tower Bridge. The real estate transaction that I'm currently involved in here is paying $550 a night to stay here at a nice hotel in the center of the city. It's right near the Thames, kind of a steep rate, and I sure didn't have to stay right in the city center, where everything is more pricey. But that's the experience that I want to have. Next week, I'll bring you the show from Edinburgh, Scotland, where I'll be paying even more for a well located hotel right on the Royal Mile, and I'll tell you how much more then I am here to boost their economies, I suppose more next, including a really timely update. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to Episode 555, of get rich education.    The same place where I get my own mortgage loans is where you can get yours Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than anyone because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. Start your pre qual and even chat with President Chaley Ridge personally while it's on your mind, start at Ridge lendinggroup.com. That's Ridge lendinggroup.com.    You know what's crazy? Your bank is getting rich off of you. The average savings account pays less than 1% it's like laughable. Meanwhile, if your money isn't making at least 4% you're losing to inflation. That's why I started putting my own money into the FFI liquidity fund. It's super simple. Your cash can pull in up to 8% returns and it compounds. It's not some high risk gamble like digital or AI stock trading. It's pretty low risk because they've got a 10 plus year track record of paying investors on time in full every time. I mean, I wouldn't be talking about it if I wasn't invested myself. You can invest as little as 25k and you keep earning until you decide you want your money back. No weird lockups or anything like that. So if you're like me and tired of your liquid funds just sitting there doing nothing. Check it out. Text family to 66866, to learn about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund again. Text family to 66866.   Tom Wheelwright  24:21   this is Rich Dad advisor, Tom wheelwright. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.   Keith Weinhold  24:37   Welcome back to Episode 555, of get rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, with an episode number like 555, you would expect me to go deep with you on real estate pays five ways, but we did that five weeks ago on episode 550 with your audio masterclass right here on the show today, we're talking about something with less upside. Than say that or the inflation triple crown, and instead on reducing your downside, vacancy and turnover expense, next week here on the show, I expect to sit down with a guest that's a highly regarded financier and author of a fairly hot new finance book, Christopher Whelan, and next week's show could get really interesting, because I've heard Chris say something about how real estate prices could fall back to 2020 levels. In my opinion, that is so many levels of unlikely that happening is about as likely as your grocery bills falling back to 2020 levels. So we'll see it could turn into a debate next week with Christopher Whelan and I. He is a sharp, well informed guy that also used to work at the New York Fed. That's next week down the road, longtime and former co host of the real estate guys radio show, Russell gray will join us again here, and we'll see what he's been up to in his post real estate guys, radio life that's coming up in a few weeks. Lots of great future content here, monologs, yes, those slack jawed monologs For me, repeat guests and new guests joining in as well. Back to this week now, there's an intriguing and potentially lucrative investment that we've discussed on the show here before, and I do have a timely and crucial update about it. A little while back, I sat down with the teak operations principle when we were in New Orleans together. These are yes, those Panama teak tree plantations that so many of you have already invested in. Yes. So as it is here. I am an American in London today talking about teak trees in Panama and I interviewed our upcoming guest here when we were in New Orleans together, the teak investment has a long time horizon, because trees have to grow. There's also a low cost of entry and no loans available. This is a real estate investment. You can own the land with the title to it and the trees that grow on top of them. Historically, teak returns have been five and a half percent, which doesn't sound like much, but see it grows in board foot volume at the same time that the unit price grows. And if inflation runs high over the next 25 years, your return might be higher. But the reason that we're discussing this now is because the principal, Mike Cobb here meeting with me, he is going to mention a price, and this is key two weeks from today, on June 9, the price for the teak parcels increases substantially. I'll tell you about that shortly. So for GRE followers, you can get locked into the lower price for just two more weeks. Here's my chat from a little while back with the teak tree investment principle, and then I'll return to bring you more.    Hey, did you know that you can own a quarter acre parcel of a producing teak plantation, you own the title to the land, and you get the growth in the trees. On top of that, this is something that you can do as an investor. And teak trees are a valuable hardwood that you own, typically in Central America. So there's a very low cost of entry to this investment, and that's what attracts a lot of people to it. And I am with Mike Cobb, the CEO. He's also the author of the new book how to buy your home overseas and get it right the first time. But Mike, a lot of people are interested in the teak investment because it is so approachable. Tell us about it. Give us a general overview.   Mike Cobb  28:42   absolutely, you know, thanks for having me on. It's always nice to be with you. We're, we're having some fun here in New Orleans, which is terrific, you know, yeah, the teak plantation is something that I envisioned back in 1998 so what's that like 26 years ago? Right? And in 1999 we planted our very first 100 Acre teak plantation. Because what we thought about at the time, which has now proven true 25 years later, is that, you know, I was either going to need the money in 25 years and be really glad I did this, or I wasn't going to need the money in 25 years and I was going to be really glad I did this. You know what? I don't really need the money now, but I'm really glad I did this. And 25 years comes. And I think that's been really the challenge for a lot of people looking at teak. They're just like, ah, 25 years. It's too long, but 25 years comes. 25 years will come, and you can either have planted the trees and be ready to take this huge windfall of return, or you won't be getting a windfall return. So I think that's the challenge, the mental challenge, I think maybe an average investor has, but I know you work with superior investors because they're paying attention to what you're writing, they're watching your podcast, they're reading your newsletter. You have far superior investors than I would say, the average investor. So I think this is a great thing for folks to check out.   Keith Weinhold  30:00   All right, so you're talking about the investment timeline, from the time a tea tree seed is planted until the harvest time that can feel like quite a while. You have been doing this over 25 years, and that is key when you as an investor go offshore or go overseas to have trust in a stable company that's been around for a long time. That's why, really, you're one of the few people that I work with who are outside of the United States real estate like the teak trees.   Mike Cobb  30:25   Thank you. Yeah, we've been around for 31 years. I've been working in the region. 31 our development company is 28 years old. Our plantation is now 26 years old. 25 with the trees, but we bought the land 26 years ago. But the bottom line, you're right and and the other thing that we should care about. And you brought this up earlier, when we're kind of chatting, is country, what country are you planting trees in that you got to wait 25 years for them to mature and harvest? By the way, the Panama. By the way, Panama, and of all the countries in the region where I feel the most comfortable as an investor, Panama's yet, because Panama's got the canal. And I know people say, oh, yeah, that's right. It's a vital strategic US interest. It's a vital world interest. The Chinese care about it as much as we do. The Europeans care about it. Anybody who wants commerce to happen cares about that canal being open. And so you've got this country, Panama, that has the canal stable, economically stable, politically stable. And when starting to talk about 2550 7500, year time frames, because you own the land, you get the harvest in 25 years, you replant, and then your children get the next harvest, and your grandchildren get the next harvest. It is truly generational wealth. Stewardship   Keith Weinhold  31:41   Panama is a little bit like investing overseas with training wheels on their well developed, first Central American nation. They even use the United States dollars. They do is that familiar? Absolutely well. But as the investors thinking about investing in teak plantations, just tell us about the properties of teak wood, of all wood types. Why teak? Tell us about the value there.    Mike Cobb  32:00   Yeah, teak has been grown in plantations, starting with the British back about 400 years ago. And so you've got centuries of plantation growing of teak as a crop, right? And so you've got this incredible longevity of information and things like that. And I know some of the stats off the top of my head, since 1972 the average price of teak lumber has has risen about five and a half percent a year over a 52 year period. Talk about track record, centuries of growing as a crop, right? 52 years as a lumber commodity. Look, people been using it to make ships. Its hardness is its most valuable characteristic is an extremely hard wood. It's resistant to rot fungus, so it's used in outdoor furniture, for example, right? Some of the stuff on the Titanic they pulled up from the bottom of the ocean, you know, chairs made a teak, right? Teak. But ship builders fine furniture, outdoor furniture and and they're cutting teak down. This is so important, they are cutting teak down eight to 10 times faster than anybody in the world is replanting it. So just imagine what that does to supply and demand and prices based on just basic economics, right?   Keith Weinhold  33:13   Yeah, that is some scarcity. That is a really good point. Tell us about what you're surely interested in. What do the investor returns look like.   Mike Cobb  33:21   Yeah. So you know, to own one of these quarter acre parcels, by the way, you said it before you own the land, you get title to the land you own the trees. $6,880 that's your that's your entry. Gosh. So for less than $7,000 you own a quarter acre of teeth trees that in 25 years projected returns. We all projections right about $94,000 a little over $94,000 so 7000 turns into $90,000 over 25 years, harvest, plant the trees again, and in 25 years, your kids or your grandkids will get the next harvest, and so on and so on. It is a powerful generational wealth stewardship. In fact, right now we have what we call give the gift of teak because look, you know, you got kids, you got grandkids. What are you gonna get them? Right? I mean, they got everything they want, presumably, right? You buy them a teak parcel, right? Buy that kid, buy that grandkid, a teak parcel. What a cool idea. Oh my gosh, in 25 years, you might be gone, right, but they're gonna get this big windfall, and they're gonna thank grandma or grandpa, right for for thinking of them 25 years into the future?   Keith Weinhold  34:27   Yeah? Oh, I love that. And you're so proud about what you do. You regularly offer investor tour so that they come and see the teak. But maybe you know, for you, the investor, you're wondering, okay, if you're used to investing in us real estate, you might be making two leaps here. You'd be going from residential real estate to agricultural, and you'd also be investing in a nation outside your home country. And when it comes to those sort of questions, I think any savvy investor asks, okay, what are the risks involved with this investment? Can you tell us about that?   Mike Cobb  34:59   Yeah, sure. Look, you've got political risk, country risk, political risk, which, I think again, of all the countries in the region, Panama, dollar, economy, canal, safe, stable. So the political risk is minimal. It's there. It's real. You know, fire risk is an issue, right? Trees burn. The good thing about teak is that after about year three, they're up. And you keep them trimmed, trim all the low branches off. So fire risk really drops incredibly low after about year three or four. But ultimately, it's about professional management. We have a company called Heyo Forrestal that we hired 25 years ago, 26 years ago, actually, to help us find the land, do the analysis of the land, make sure it was good for teak. And when you hire professionals, you get professional results. I mean, we stayed with this company for 26 years now, and the guy that we met early on, a little forestry engineer, is now General Manager and partner in the business. So we've watched that business grow up alongside ours at the same time. Those relationships, you know, Dolly Parton and Kenny Rogers have a song you can't make old friends. So here we are with Jacobo and some of the Luis that we've worked with for, you know, 26 years, and the relationships matter, especially in that part of the world, but professionalism and professional management is the key, and you have that alongside the relationships. Both are important.   Keith Weinhold  36:20   yes. So we're talking about how the property manager is such an important part of your team, and you think about your single family homes or your apartment buildings. And Mike here is talking about the importance of professional management, because teak trees need a little management and pruning, and sometimes there are thinnings which can give you some income so that you don't have to wait 25 years. Correct another way in which you might not have to wait 25 years for the full harvest cycle is at times you can buy trees that are, say, already seven years old, so you can only be waiting 18 years, or that are teens, so you might only be waiting 10 years, or some things about that, those are some of the options. But Mike, before I ask you if you have any last word, if you want to learn more about this, get some information, learn more about it, and learn how to connect with Mike's team. He is one of our GRE marketplace providers, and he's the owner of that company. You can do that at gre marketplace.com/teak, any last thing someone should know about teak before they consider investing? Mike?    Mike Cobb  37:16   Yeah, well, two things you mentioned the tour. So we do run discovery tours. We have one coming up in January, end of January, two days, we go out to the plantation, the teenage teat plantation, by the way, oak, which is eight or nine more years to harvest. Then we're going to the sawmill, because all of our logs go through a sawmill to convert to lumber, which enhances the return to the investor.    Keith Weinhold  37:36   Do the teens sleep until noon? Or can we visit them   Mike Cobb  37:38   and then they're on their phones all day If we're gonna go visit them. We'll wake them up and, like, get on their phones. But here's, here's the last parting word. I think it's scary for a lot of people. It is scary. You're going overseas, you're outside of, you know, residential you're going into a new industry. You're going to a new country. The reason this works for so many people, over 1000 now, have done this, is it's such a small bite, $7,000 and if that's maybe one or 2% of your portfolio, what I hate to say, put it on the table and roll the dice, but you'll be happy you did. I'm happy I did. It's a small bite, but that international diversification is so important. And then you put it in something that's absolutely not correlated to the market. It's not correlated to us real estate. I mean, in 2008 to 2012 when real estate was dying in the US, our trees just kept growing. So non correlated, non US, right? And non residential. I think that's the reason you want to take a little tiny piece of your portfolio and put it overseas in something like teak.    Keith Weinhold  38:42   We know over the long term that it has grown in value 5.5% a year, but at the same time, it grows in volume, in the amount of board fees you're getting a crease, an increase in both unit value and volume. It's really growing a couple ways. At the same time, you've had over 1000 different individual investors invest in the teak now, several dozen, maybe even more than 100 of those have been you the get rich education follower. So again, thanks for joining me, Mike. If you want to learn more, start at gre marketplace.com/teak. I'm Keith Weinhold. I'll see you next time.    Yeah, good information from Mike there again for GRE followers, that 6880 price deadline is Monday, June 9, and then it goes to 8680, that is a 26% price increase, and this is because land and planting costs have skyrocketed. And you know, I have long wondered about when they were going to change that same lower price that they've had for a lot of years. The provider recently added a sawmill to convert logs to lumber, and that enhances investment returns. So when you inquire for more info, you can ask about that, and that could very well put them above the 94k per part. Possible projected payout. Teak, hardwood, it just has some amazing physical properties. It's not your run of the mill. Backyard. Maple, it is a real asset. Think of it as a forest that fights back against Fiat and the provider reputation and continuity are almost impeccable. They've even had the same forestry manager, yeah, sort of like a property manager for trees, because trees take things like prunings and thinnings, the same manager for all 26 years of the teak operation. In the future, I might join one of their teak investor tours in Panama, and if I do, I'll be sure to let you know so that we can meet up that might even be a GRE exclusive tour. What you really need to know now is that, again, the lower price is good until Monday, June 9, to get started or simply learn more, visit gre marketplace.com/teak, that's t, e, a, k, until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.   Unknown Speaker  41:10   Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC exclusively.   Keith Weinhold  41:34   You know, whenever you want the best written real estate and finance info, oh, geez, today's experience limits your free articles access and it's got pay walls and pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. It's not so great. So then it's vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that adds no hype value to your life. That's why this is the golden age of quality newsletters. And I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point because even the word abbreviation is too long, my letter usually takes less than three minutes to read, and when you start the letter. You also get my one hour fast real estate video. Of course, it's all completely free. It's called the Don't quit your Daydream letter. It wires your mind for wealth, and it couldn't be easier for you to get it right now. Just text gre 266, 866, while it's on your mind, take a moment to do it right now. Text, GRE to 66866.   The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, getricheducation.com  

Keith discusses strategies for building wealth in real estate, emphasizing efficient property operations and leveraging. He suggests setting tenant occupancy limits, sub-metering utilities, and increasing rentable space. He explains the leverage ratio, which measures the relationship between debt and equity, and advises maintaining a high ratio for better returns.  Hear his take on the Florida's real estate market, including falling property values, oversupply, and rising insurance premiums. Despite these issues, Keith remains optimistic about Florida's long-term potential due to its population growth and low taxes. Free Resources: Connect with a free GRE Investment Coach at GREinvestmentcoach.com Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/551 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I'd be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE' to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai    Keith Weinhold  0:00   Welcome to GRE I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, today, the two things you've got to focus on if you're ever going to build wealth as a real estate investor, why Trump wants to fire Fed Chair Jerome Powell, then, is Florida real estate doomed with falling property values, a housing oversupply, spiking insurance premiums and slowing population growth. It's episode 551, of get rich education.    Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being the flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, who delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests and key top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast or visit get rich education.com   Speaker 1  1:16   You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.   Keith Weinhold  1:32   Welcome to GRE from Manhattan, Kansas to the finance capital of Manhattan in New York City, and across 188 nations worldwide, you are back inside get rich Education. I'm your host, and my name is Keith Weinhold. I think you know that by now, because we deliver weekly shows more steadily and predictably than a new tariff policy. I've got more on tariffs in a funny clip on Trump wanting to fire Jerome Powell in stories on that level soon. But first, you know one thing that I've made you mindful of lately is that a successful real estate investor needs to pay attention to two big things if you want to build wealth First, keep your property operations efficient. This is your cash flow function. And second look at your net worth statement, and be mindful that you are leveraging as many dollars as you responsibly can. Let me break down both of these for you so that you can see what I really mean here the first one, keeping your property operations efficient. That means that right up front, with a new tenant in the application, find out how many tenants are going to live there, and firmly let them know that they cannot exceed this or that they're in violation of the lease. Can you get 20% more rent, or even 50% more rent by furnishing your unit and marketing it not as a long term rental, but as a midterm rental, and targets, say health professionals that are traveling if you're in a hot rental market. Can you simply keep the rent the same, but have new incoming tenants pay a utility bill for you that you had previously been paying by sub metering your utilities. Other examples of taking the rental property you already have and making it more efficient, you know, there are more classic items, like increasing your rentable space, renting out separate on site, storage space, adding a carport, charging pet rent or just boosting the curb appeal. Can you build an adu on your property? How about appealing your property taxes or automating your rent collection. Why don't you take a look at your insurance policies? You know, a lot of them have $1,000 deductibles. Well, if you're an economically resilient investor, consider raising your deductibles to 5k that way you lower your insurance premium and increase your cash flow that way. I mean really, putting in insurance claims can be somewhat of a pain anyway. Okay, well, right. There were maybe, I don't know, 10 or 15 quick ideas for streamlining your property's operations and increasing your cash flow. Now, don't try to do every one of them, but if there's at least one or two that you can think of as low hanging fruit to go ahead and harvest with the nature of what you've got going in your portfolio. And you know, ideas like I just shared there, you can hear about that on some other real estate investing platforms. But you know what the bigger gain. Is that you can actually make they take less work and fewer people talk about these things all right, and that's the second thing I'm talking about. Yes, it is typically more profitable for you and less work for you. If, instead of all those things, you increase your leverage ratio. Now, doing this does not help your cash flow, it helps your net worth. And net worth is something that you can later convert to cash flow. And this second one increasing your leverage that's a strategy that you just don't hear about on very many real estate investing platforms. So I haven't discussed leverage ratio in a long time. So let's talk about what it is, how you can improve yours, and then what it does for building your wealth. Okay, it's the relationship between your debt and your equity, and here's how to determine yours, and then I'll tell you how you're performing. Once you've determined yours, you might even be able to do it roughly in your head. All you do is take the total value of all the real estate that you own and divide it by your loan balances. That's it. Say you own a million dollars worth of real estate and you've got 500k of total debt on all that real estate. Well, it's really simple. Just divide your value a million bucks, buy your debt, 500k and your leverage ratio is two to one. Let's just call that two. If you're looking to build wealth, that number of two is kind of low. It should be higher. It means that you've got 50% equity in your property. Now say that instead, on the day that you bought that million dollars in real estate, you only made a 200k down payment. That's awesome. A million bucks divided by 200k your leverage ratio is five. All right. Well, what are these numbers really mean? Like this two and this five? All right, it's important because it is what you use to multiply your real estate's rate of appreciation by in order to find your rate of return. So just say that your real estate appreciates 4% this year. If your leverage ratio is just two, that's only an 8% return on your skin in the game. But if you've got more debt and your leverage ratio is five, then a 4% return means you've got a 20% return on your skin in the game. Do that keep your leverage ratio high? Now, what if your leverage ratio falls all the way down to a one. What does that mean? Oh, dear, you're not really doing much to build wealth because all of your properties are paid off. You don't have any mortgages on them. So if you're down to a one, all you've got working for you, from an appreciation standpoint, is compound interest. That's the point at which you've fallen from a compound leverage instrument down to a compound interest instrument. And as we know here at GRE which is counter to the mainstream world. And yeah, the mainstream world is where you have to work all of your life at a job you hate. And that's what you'll do if all you have is unlevered compound interest, all right, and if all you have is unlevered compound interest, well, don't book your Blue Origin flight quite yet. You're not going to go on one you can count on sitting behind a desk for decades instead.   All right. Well, how do you determine your leverage ratio? Again, it's your total real estate value divided by your equity. All right. Now, how do you keep your number high? By making new purchases with 20 to 25% down payments, and by not making new purchases is another way, and instead performing cash out refinances or doing both, you know another way to increase your leverage ratio, and you might not have thought about this, it's when real estate values fall. Now, that's surely not a desirable way to do it, and it doesn't happen often, but when real estate values fall, that drops both your real estate's value and your equity value by the same amount. And interestingly, with some of the ways that I described that you can add value to a property earlier, like a carport, that makes your cash flow better, but it does make your leverage ratio worse at the same time, a way to decrease your leverage ratio fast and lower your wealth building potential fast is to make an extra principal payment of a few 1000 bucks. I mean that one act alone might drop it from, say, a 3.14 to a three point. One Two over night. But look, I don't know what real estate markets you're invested in, and if you tell me what your number is, I'm gonna know how much your future wealth building power is, because you're keeping dollars not merely compounding, but leveraged. And if your number falls below about two and a half, which means 40% equity, that's typically when I begin looking to refinance or sell an equity heavy property, to do a 1031 into a bigger one. So two and a half, that's the number where you often want to take action. And really this is all just a fresh way of approaching an enduring mantra here at GRE Oh yeah, financially free beats debt free, and this sure can make you a mutineer among the masses. And I've been talking about these mutineers sort of things a lot lately, even with a tinge of irreverence. Perhaps you might remember that three weeks ago here on the show, I discussed how, depending on your circumstance, you can even make a car loan good debt, and how a seven figure income is the new six figures and then, yes, perhaps more irreverence. Last week in your free audio course, it was pretty iconoclastic to break down in detail how a 38% rate of return from just everyday buy and hold real estate is not risky at all. And last week's episode 550 the free course, that's probably the most important episode we've done in a long time. For a beginning real estate investor, if you've got any relative or friend in your life that you know, do you have someone around you that just doesn't get it about real estate investing, that really doesn't understand why you do this, please go ahead and share last week's episode with him. Episode 550 now on to the actual person of one, Donald John Trump. And why do I always say his name that way? I don't know. I'm not sure how that ever got started, but I don't say that as often as I call myself a remorseless slack jaw. In any case, the President wants to fire the Fed Chair Jerome Powell. This is nothing new. It just flared up again. I mean, here's the latest flare up. Listen to how Trump says he's never been fond of Powell. Okay, key in on that. This is Tom llamas on NBC, nightly news. You'll also hear the voices of Trump, Powell and Elizabeth Warren in Washington.    Unknown Speaker  8:38   There's a mounting standoff between President Trump and the Chairman of the Federal Reserve. The President blasting Jerome Powell for not lowering interest rates, accusing him of playing politics. Gabe Gutierrez is at the White House with markets on edge and his trade war escalating. President Trump is lashing out at the Federal Reserve Chairman he once appointed, writing on social media that Jerome Powell's termination cannot come fast enough. I don't think he's doing the job. He's too late, always too late. Slow. And I'm not happy with him. I let him know it, and if I want him out, he'll be out of there real fast, believe me, the rebuke coming after this warning from Powell Wednesday, tariffs are highly likely to generate at least a temporary rise in inflation, the President now slamming him for not cutting interest rates to help the economy. We have a Federal Reserve Chairman that is playing politics, somebody that I've never been very fond of, actually, but he's playing politics. Powell says the Fed needs more clarity before making a move. We're never going to be influenced by any political pressure. People can say whatever they want. That's fine. Trump had previously said he would not try to replace Powell, and earlier this week, the Treasury Secretary stressed the importance of an independent federal reserve. I believe that monetary policy is a jewel box that's got to be preserved. Democrats warning of chaos if Powell is ousted, if Chairman Powell can be fired by the President of the United States, it will crash the markets in the United States. Powell, whose term as Fed Chair ends next year, has said the President does not have the legal authority to fire him. If he asked you to leave, would you go? No.   Keith Weinhold  14:38    In that clip, Trump said he's never been very fond of pow dude. You appointed him, you You appointed him as Fed Chair in your first term, where you must have liked him more than any of the other candidates. Geez. Now you may or may not like Powell, but I don't see how. He's playing politics before lowering interest rates, it's completely sensible for him to see how the tariffs play out first. The Fed has long been independent of the executive branch, so they're supposed to be Trump wants Powell to lower interest rates. And remember, Powell already cut rates a full 1% late last year, and I really don't even agree with that cut when inflation was still elevated. Trump says Powell is always too late. Well, everyone agrees that Powell was too late to raise rates back in 2022 I mean, that had to do with the whole gaff where he said that inflation is just transitory, and no one will let Powell forget that. But do you give pal credit for a soft landing? I mean, he since brought down inflation while keeping us out of a recession, that's the definition of a soft landing. You know, I don't fully give pal credit there, just a little but remember, by that point, the inflation damage has already been done. It's already hurt a lot of people, and that's not changing. Now, of course, the inflation enriched you and it enriched me, because we're the real estate investors, and inflation is always going to do that for us. What happened is that Trump is frustrated because he saw the European Central Bank just lower their rates. So that's why he wants to see that happen here too. Because of course, lower rates can help the economy, at least in the short term. So I wondered about what you think. So what I did is I asked you in our latest Instagram poll, the question I asked was simply, should Jerome Powell be retained or fired? I was a little surprised at the result. 38% of GRE Instagram poll respondents said pal should be retained, and 62% said fired. I didn't think as many as 62% would say fire Powell. My best guess is that it's because you want lower interest rates on mortgages, and my next best guess is that you want to fire Powell, not because you dislike him, but more because you want to abolish the Fed completely, which I guess means that Powell would be fired that way. Did you hear about what happened when Donald Trump called tech support? Yeah. He told them, my tariffs aren't working. Tech Support responded with, did you try turning them off and back on again.    Hey, coming up shortly is Florida real estate doomed. If you'd like to reach out to us here at the show, you can do so at get rich education.com/contact, that's whether you have a comment or a question or a concern or a content suggestion you can communicate either through voice or email on our contact page, there one thing that we don't need, respectfully, are booking agents for shows reaching out to us. You know, I used to say that we have 50 times as many guest requests to be on the show with me here as we do available spots, but now it is more than 50x and I'm really grateful to host a platform where I guess a lot of people want to join in and contribute here, but the reality is that we only have one show a week, and a lot of weeks like this one I don't have any guests at all on the Show. That page is monitored by my terrific executive assistant, Brenda, just like most everyone here at GRE She's an active real estate investor too, and again, comments, questions or concerns about the show, please contact us at the contact page and get rich education.com/contact. More. Next you're listening to get rich education.    You know what's crazy? Your bank is getting rich off of you. The average savings account pays less than 1% it's like laughable. Meanwhile, if your money isn't making at least 4% you're losing to inflation. That's why I started putting my own money into the FFI liquidity fund. It's super simple. Your cash can pull in up to 8% returns, and it compounds. It's not some high risk gamble like digital or AI stock trading. It's pretty low risk because they've got a 10 plus year track record of paying investors on time in full every time. I mean, I wouldn't be talking about it if I wasn't invested myself. You can invest as little as 25k and you keep earning until you decide you want your money back. No weird lockups or anything like that. So if you're like me and tired of your liquid funds just sitting there doing nothing. Check it out. Text family to 66866, to learn about freedom family investments, liquidity fund again. Text family to 66866    Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at Ridge lendinggroup.com, that's ridgelendinggroup.com.   T. Harv Ecker  20:45   This is the millionaire minds. T. Harv Ecker, you're listening to the powerful Get rich education with Keith Weinhold. Don't quit your day dream.   Keith Weinhold  21:10   Welcome back to get rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold is Florida real estate doomed. Most anyone that pays attention has probably noticed that the Sunshine State has some areas, well, really, a number of them where property values have actually fallen. This is tied to the fact that there's an inventory over supply. There have been spiking insurance premiums tied to hurricanes. And what about the slowing population growth, and since the pandemic, Florida has had some of the fastest growing, highest appreciating markets in the entire nation. But today, in fact, there's a giant home builder there KB Homes that finds Florida's housing market. In their words, it's weak enough that they are cutting prices this spring. And KB Homes is ranked number 545 on the fortune 1000 so they're pretty sizable. And then an even larger home builder, Lennar, they basically said the same thing. The CEO of KB Homes said, quote, demand at the start of this spring selling season was more muted than what we have seen historically, despite a healthy level of traffic in our communities. So we took steps to reposition our communities to offer the most compelling value, and buyers responded favorably to those adjustments. End of the quote, yes, that is a genteel way of saying that we had to cut prices to get buyers like I mentioned to you, starting, gosh, probably a year ago or more, that other home builders have, instead of cutting prices, offered mortgage rate buy downs to buyers, be mindful though of how much your home builder is paying for those buy downs and how much you are at the closing table. Now, as we know, nationally, there's still a housing supply shortage, but KB, who does business in other states, says that Florida is the weakest, and that's due to over supply. Now let's forget about in migration for a second. Okay, that weakness is because a lot of communities are overbuilt to the point that the in migration rate cannot keep up with the over building. And of course, it's hard to generalize. Florida is a big, populous state of 23 million people. Southwest Florida has been hit the hardest that's pretty well documented. Punta Gorda, home values are down 9% year over year. Cape Coral down 7% let's go to the opposite end of the state, and Jacksonville, up in Northeast Florida that has about seven months of housing supply. It's actually pretty close to a balanced market between buyers and sellers, and then in the center of the state, Orlando, there's six months of supply that is a balanced market where there is normalcy in negotiation between buyers and sellers and a smattering of offers on one property And no one rushing and doing things like waving their inspection and then Miami Fort Lauderdale, you know, I really don't talk about them much on the show, because their prices are too high to work well as long term cash flowing rentals, both KB and Lennar say that they're keeping an eye on tariffs and that the changes to immigration have not changed their operations very much yet, because, remember, a lot of construction laborers are immigrants, and if they get deported, and then you need to hire native born US labor. Well, home prices go up, all right. Well, what about the Florida insure? Crisis. You know, over the past few years in Florida, a bunch of carriers have just withdrawn. They have pulled out of the state, farmers, insurance, bankers, insurance, Lexington insurance, all pulled out. Farmers told The New York Times that this business decision was necessary to effectively manage risk exposure. Similarly, AAA is another carrier, and they said that they're not going to renew some policies. They said the markets become challenging. 2022 catastrophic hurricane season that really contributed to an unprecedented rise in reinsurance rates, and that made it more costly for insurance companies to operate there at all. And prior to that, the market was already strained and had increased claims costs due to inflation and excessive litigation. That's what triple A said. All right, so where does this leave homeowners? Well, some are already relying on state and federal insurance programs, like the National Flood Insurance Program. There's a state carrier called citizens now, flood insurance is not required outside of a special hazard flood area, but that doesn't mean that a home is going to escape flooding if a hurricane passes through, but having insurance it does help along and accelerate the recovery process. Florida has some of the best Building Code adoption and enforcement in the country, and that fact alone has saved 1000s of homes and billions of dollars. But modern building codes are not necessarily applied retroactively to older homes. So it's those homes and properties that really have more exposure to hurricanes, those older properties, and a lot of Floridians are just skipping insurance coverage altogether so that they don't have to pay the premiums. They don't have any coverage. If you don't have a lien holder, you can do that. You can skip it, right? Well, like, How bad is it? Exactly? Just, how much have Florida insurance premiums been jacked up at this point. They've increased 60% on average between 2019, and 2023, and while homeowners and investors are primarily bearing that rising cost burden, I mean, insurers are feeling that squeeze as well. It's not just that the incidence of hurricane events is up, but premiums rise, of course, when the cost of labor in materials that it takes to replace and rebuild a damaged home have gone up as well things like concrete and structural steel and now, of course, as real estate investors, we can eventually pass on the cost of our higher insurance premiums to the tenant in the form of a rent increase, But when it goes up 60% in just four years. It's really hard to keep up with that. Florida's infrastructure is under some strain, too, and I see this when I drive the Tampa area. Every few years, I see more and more traffic. It takes me longer to get places like it takes me two or three cycles to go through a traffic light, where it only took me one cycle a few years ago. So roads and schools and utilities are under some duress to keep up with the population growth over the past decade, statewide commute times are up 11% you know, really that shouldn't be a surprise. I mean, that is common in any high growth area. Now, when it comes to insurance rate increases, there is a good chance that the worst is now over. Yes, Florida, insurance rate increases have been slowing down. The average rate increases have dropped quite a bit from 21% back in 2023 to a projected just two tenths of 1% for 2025 okay. I mean, that's basically no change expected for this year. Citizens, property insurance, that state option that I mentioned earlier, their rates are also shrinking, with some policyholders experiencing rate decreases of 5% or more. Now, I told you on a previous show that if you're looking to add rental property in Florida, go with new build properties for low insurance rates. But now I actually got a hold of some real policies between some of my properties and some of my friends properties. I've got them right in front of me here on a 1970s build single family home. I mean, the premiums can be high. We're basically paying 1% or more of the property's value in insurance premiums each year. So a 250k A valued single family rental that was built 50 years ago has a premium of $3,000 in some cases. I mean, that's a lot, but a close friend of mine recently went to GRE marketplace, got connected with one of our Florida providers. There, he bought a new construction duplex for I forget it was either 400k or 420k it's in Ocala, Florida, which is the central part of the state, and his 12 month insurance premium is $694. Wow. What a low premium for a duplex. That's why you go new build in Florida. Newer properties were built to today's construction and wind mitigation codes, and they have low insurance rates. And his duplex also appraised for 10k more than the purchase price. He has both sides already rented. And in fact, he closes on the property today, and yeah, I recommended that he go to GRE marketplace and get into Florida property, because that is indeed what he was interested in, and I sure wasn't going to stop him. So suffice to say, I clearly do not believe that Florida real estate is doomed. Florida has long been the antidote to high tax, high cost states, it has attracted snowbirds and retirees and hourly workers and increasingly younger professionals unable to crack housing markets elsewhere. Since the pandemic, millions of people have flocked to the state. I mean, when you look at a list of the fastest growing metro areas of the United States. I mean, Florida domination continues. You've still got big ones up there, like Lakeland of Florida is actually at the top of the population growth leaderboard nationally for metros with 500,000 or more people, Port St Lucie is also up there. It's third nationally, and Orlando is fourth. Three of the top four population growth metros are still in Florida, but this promise of sunshine and opportunity that has been replaced by something just a little less Sunny. I mean, you've got the rising home prices like Florida's not that cheap anymore, this diminishing affordability and this growing pressure on infrastructure, but Florida has definitely not completely lost its shine. People across the country are still moving to Florida, but not at the same rate that they did a few years ago, and the state is still seeing more people arrive then depart, besides the weather and the beaches that people love, of course, there's zero state income tax, and Governor Ron DeSantis has even proposed eliminating the property tax, like I mentioned to you on the show a while ago, although we can't count on eliminating the property tax anytime soon, if it ever happens. But wow, what a real estate boom that property tax elimination would create. So for the long term, which is what real estate investing is, I still like Florida. One thing that I don't like is trying to catch a falling knife, and that is analogous to say, investing in an area that is going down and has no future. Florida's got a future. It's got some challenges, just like anywhere in the US, but the reason it has a future is because more population growth is almost a guarantee. You don't get many guarantees in investing. Just look at the decennial census figures. Okay, this is the population of Florida every 10 years, starting in the year 1900 that's when they had 528,000 people, yeah, only about a half million people in the entire state, and I'll do some rounding here every 10 years after that. So in 1910 it was up to 750,000 people, then a million, 1,000,005 1,000,009 now we're up to 1950 where it grew to 2.8 million people, and then 5,000,006 point 8,000,009.7, 1316, 18.8 and then 21 and a half million in 2020, and it's 23 and a half million today. Now I only went as far back as 1900 there, but their census data goes back to at least 1830 and the growth has always been torrid, just uninterrupted. Every 10 years. There has been substantial to massive growth for at least 200 years, and Florida has still. Grown more than 2% per year each of the past couple years. In fact, it is still first place of all 50 states for population growth. So areas that are over supplied with housing in Florida are going to be absorbed. So Florida real estate is definitely not doomed. And in fact, adding more Florida real estate at this time, you know, that could very well be the type of thing where 10 years from now, or even five years from now, when their population is substantially bigger and there's less housing available. I mean, it could potentially look like a wise buy that you're able to get property at this time with less competition and maybe even a small discount here in the mid 2020s, and today, you can find three Florida markets listed at GRE marketplace. What else is happening at GRE marketplace? We've added two new markets, and they are also in the South. They are Jackson, Mississippi and Montgomery, Alabama. Yes, these areas are investor advantaged, and they have prices lower than most Florida markets. Though, I don't know that you'll see the net migration inflows into Jackson and Montgomery that you will in a lot of Florida markets. Jackson has a metro population of 600,000 and Montgomery 400,000 they both have really low property taxes. And there's something else that these two new GRE marketplace cities have in common. Any guess both Jackson and Montgomery are state capitals, yes, so they do have a base of government jobs. So check out gremarketplace.com read more about those cities. And of course, we even connect you with free investment coaching there to help you get matched up with some good property. Thanks for listening. Until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.   Speaker 2  37:10    Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC exclusively.   Keith Weinhold  37:34   You know, whenever you want the best written real estate and finance info, oh, geez, today's experience limits your free articles access and it's got paywalls and pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers, it's not so great. So then it's vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that adds no hype value to your life. That's why this is the golden age of quality newsletters. And I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point because even the word abbreviation is too long, my letter usually takes less than three minutes to read, and when you start the letter. You also get my one hour fast real estate video. Course, it's all completely free. It's called the Don't quit your Daydream letter. It wires your mind for wealth, and it couldn't be easier for you to get it right now. Just text GRE to 66866, while it's on your mind, take a moment to do it right now. Text, GRE to 66866.   The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, getricheducation.com.   

Keith answers listener questions about getting started in real estate investing with limited funds and how to determine the true appreciation of a property against inflation. He also discusses: The impact of the LA wildfires on housing needs and some landlords raising rents excessively. Economic and housing challenges facing Canada, including high inflation and unaffordable home prices. And highlights the views of likely future Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Poilievre on addressing these issues. GRE Free Investment Coaching:GREmarketplace.com/Coach For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/538 Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I'd be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE' to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai    Keith Weinhold  0:01   welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, I answer three of your listener questions, then learn why LA area landlords got a bad name during this month's awful Southern California wildfires. Finally, why Canadians cannot buy houses anymore, and what lessons you can learn from Canada's real estate mistakes and the abject lunacy there today on get rich education.   Unknown Speaker  0:30   Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being the flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests and key top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast or visit get rich education.com   Unknown Speaker  1:16   You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.   Keith Weinhold  1:32   Welcome to GRE from Gatlinburg, Tennessee to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are inside this week's installment of the program known as get rich education, I'm grateful that you're here, but you're not here for me. You are here for you. So let's talk about you and some of the listener questions that you wrote into the show about and as usual, whenever I have a batch of listener questions, I answer the beginner level questions first and then move on to more advanced questions. The first one comes from Jeanette in Seaford, Delaware. Jeanette asks, I only have a little money to invest in real estate. How do I get started with just a small amount of money. All right, Jeanette, well, first I would talk to a lender. You have to talk to a mortgage specialist or a loan officer to find out what you qualify for. You're basically getting them to punch holes into your financial picture. And then that way, Jeanette, you will know what holes to go, mend, so your loan officer is essentially giving you a free troubleshooting session. Now, our investment coaches here at GRE help you with some of that, but GRE doesn't originate loans, so you want to get with someone like a ridge lending group for help. And now, what are some of the holes that a mortgage lender might poke into your finances? Jeanette, well, getting your credit score up and they'll help you with that strategy. Or you simply need more dollars in savings, in what your mortgage loan underwriter calls reserves, or you might need to establish a two year job history, or you have to say, Pay off your car loan in order to get your debt to income ratio lower, or whatever it is. And since at GRE marketplace, the least expensive income property is probably about $120,000right now, a number that keeps going up with inflation. But what you would need is 23 to 25% of that between your down payment and closing costs, all right? Jeanette, so then about 28 to 30k that is the minimum lump of cash that you'll need to buy a property that is already fixed up and ready for a tenant, and that is a great way to start in real estate investing if you want to maintain your standard of living, okay, that is therefore the lowest entry point that you can do that. But if you're temporarily willing to let your quality of life slide for a couple years and maybe live communally. You can put as little as 3% down on a primary residence and then rent out the other rooms. Okay, that's the house hacking model, but depending on your setup, you know, maybe you're sharing a kitchen with roommates or suitemates, and therefore that temporary loss in quality of life. Maybe you can even Airbnb at a short term rental, in which case you will be buying the furniture. However, now with a 3% down payment on an owner occupied house, hack like that, you're probably going to have to pay a PMI premium, a private mortgage insurance premium of a few $100 per month. But still, this does get you in with very little money, since that's what you're asking about Jeanette. And finally, the third thing I'll bring up here is that you can get a combination of maintaining your standard of living and putting a small down payment on a property by using an FHA loan and three and a half percent down. And you can do that with a single family home, duplex, triplex or four Plex, living in one unit and renting out the others. So yes, you get both this way, but I will not go into the details on the FHA, because I have described that in detail on other episodes since it's how I started out myself. But there are a number of options right there for you to inquire about Jeanette, all starting with an investment centric mortgage lender like Ridgelendinggroup.com.     The next question comes from Jared in Pocatello, Idaho. Jared asks Keith, in the past year, my duplex in Pocatello went up in value 5% from 400k to 420k. How do I know how much of that 5% is true appreciation, and what portion of the 5% is from inflation? Oh, that is such a devastatingly cool question Jared, and that's exactly what I thought when I saw that question come in. Okay, so basically, Jared is asking, say, in this 5% price increase is 3% from inflation and 2% from appreciation, for example, or like, what is the breakout of those two components of the price change? And a lot of people don't understand the difference, and even know enough to ask a question this good. So props to you there. Jared. One thing you cannot do is just look at CPI inflation over the last year for the US, which is 2.9% and then say, Oh, well, then I guess the other 2.1% must be appreciation. Therefore, no, you can't really do that. There's more to it than that, for a lot of reasons. I mean consumer price inflation, like on a pound of ground beef at the supermarket, that is different from asset price inflation, and there are a lot of other reasons too. Appreciation is distinctly different from inflation, because the value of your property increasing 5% that has to do with the attractiveness of your property to the marketplace. Now there are attributes with appreciation, like proximity to high paying jobs, proximity to highways and shopping in desirable schools, which are basically those axiomatic Location, location, location qualities. Now I'm going to assume that you did not make an improvement or a renovation to the property Jared, because obviously that would hike up the value. Now other appreciation attributes that are distinctly different from inflation are things like population growth and wage growth in your area, what can really pump up appreciation is if the remaining availability of developable land starts shrinking and shriveling up in a desirable location. Contrary to popular belief, mortgage rates have little to do with appreciation. We can leave that out of this discussion. Now, how this is different from inflation is that inflation is not about the intrinsic value. Rather, inflation is the price of the home increasing because the currency is worth less. Now I hope that you find that explanation satisfying Jared, but what is dissatisfying is that it's actually hard to pin down a number and say, was this two and a half percent appreciation and two and a half percent inflation, or any other combination? And that's because inflation itself is practically impossible to accurately measure, and a lot of that has to do with an inflationary basket of goods that is just exceedingly difficult to adjust for attributes like quality and utility and substitution So Jerry did is likely that your duplexes 5% value increase is an amalgamation of both appreciation and inflation, that part I can confirm, but the exact breakdown for each is virtually incalculable, super insightful question there Jared.     The third and final of our three listener questions to get the show started today, and then I'll get into landlords in the LA wildfires and Canada versus us real estate. The final question today is from Jeter in Roseville, California. I know where Roseville is. It's just northeast of Sacramento, and I'm not sure if Jeter j, e t, e r is your first name or your last name, like former Yankees shortstop Derek Jeter, but only one name came in here. Jeter asks, Keith, I am a true believer in GRE principles. I'm looking to pounce on some property this year and get leverage and other people's money working for me, instead of only getting my money to work for me in my company's 401 k. Let me just interject here. You really get it. You really get it. Jeter, um, continuing on with your question, with mortgage rates around 7% I'd love to know where you think interest rates are headed next, and what is going to make rates move. Thanks, Jeter. Well, I've got to tell you, Jeter, not only do I avoid predicting future interest rates, but I don't know of anyone in the world that can predict interest rates with high reliability, especially over the medium to long term. James Grant, He's based in New York City. He puts out a publication called Grant's Interest Rate Observer that might just give you a better than 5050, shot of where they're headed next. He's a well regarded source. In fact, I saw James Grant speak in person a couple months ago, but I wouldn't put too much credence in any interest rate predictor out there. Now, just 11 days ago, I sent our newsletter subscribers a graphic of just how bad. I mean, really awful that recent interest rate predictions have been. I've never seen a chart like this. This chart looked like a centipede. Okay, the Bold Line was the actual federal funds rate that was like the centipedes body and all the hundreds of legs coming off this line were predictions that others had made, all deviating from the true line, the centipede body, which is what the rate really was. I mean, prominent experts rate predictions have a track record that's more abysmal than everyone saying we'd surely have a man on Mars, by now, terrible. Jeter. When you look at interest rate predictions, you're looking at a waste of your time. They're about as reliable as a weather app in a tornado a year ago, the collective brain trusts of all the economic wizards believed with devotion and alacrity that mortgage rates would be sub six now, instead, they are still about seven, which might correspond to a three or three and a half percent federal funds rate. They all thought the federal funds rate would be near three by now, but it's more like four and a half today. And what's hilarious is that, in more recent years, the Fed even tells us what they plan to do next. They even tell us it's little like having the answers to the test, and yet you still fail the test. You've got the cheat sheet and you still aren't doing any better? How can this possibly be? Well, the reason that I don't make interest rate predictions is because it is a surefire way to look foolish. Jeter, to answer the second part of your question, what moves interest rates around? The answer is, well, it's really broad economic forces and political forces, that is why it's tough, and this includes jobs reports, supply and demand of credit, inflation, a pandemic, a surprise new war in the Middle East, tariffs, GDP reports, surprise election outcomes, a massive change in tax policy and more. I mean, it is total entropy. Now, one thing we know is that persistently higher inflation will soon result in higher rates, just like we saw in 2022 I mean, rates rise in a bullish, robust and optimistic economy. And another thing that we do know is that sustained fear causes rates to fall. That's why, when you look at a chart, you see interest rates of all kinds plunge like a cliff diver during the 2001 dot com recession, the 2008 GFC and the 2020 COVID pandemic. The reason that rates fall during fearful times just like those, is because the economy needs the help and a little pro tip for you here, Jeter, when a recession begins, it's more likely than not that rates will fall. But see, it can be hard to predict a recession, as we've all found out recently, we just came off three fed interest rate cuts late last year, and that was a little weird, because the economy does not need the help that is sort of like offering Gatorade to someone that's not even sweating. Okay, and when rates scrape the ocean bottom floor at zero, from 2009 to 2016 and then again from 2020, to 2022,that's unhealthy. Natural market forces would mean that there's a cost to receive a service like borrowing money. Well, with zero rates, it feels like no one wants to save and everyone wants to borrow and spend. Zero rates, it is time to all out. Ball out. My two time GRE podcast guest here on the show, and super smart guy, Dr Chris Martinson, he thinks that rates are generally going to go higher from here. But you don't have to look far. You can find other wise guys that say they're going lower. At the last Fed meeting last year, they disappointed markets by signaling plans to only cut rates twice this year, instead of the four cuts that were previously expected. And now that's even changed since then, a lot of people question if those two cuts are even going to happen this year, given things like a hot jobs report that came flying in and still too high inflation. So this is kind of like expecting a decadent dessert of rate cuts, and instead you get, like, one Biscoff cookie, like they give you an economy on the plane. So Jeter, that's why I don't forecast rates. I don't think anyone can, but now, at least you have a couple resources, and you also know what factors move rates around.    Now if you want a fun, real time pulse on the market. Check out poly market. You might have heard of it by now. It's a site where you can place bets on various outcomes, a lot of non sports bets. You can see people put their money where their mouth is. You don't have to make a wager yourself. You can just see what people are wagering on. There are wagers on fed interest rate decisions. There at Poly market, you can even place a bet on if Jerome Powell says Good afternoon at his next press conference over there on Poly market, I'm not kidding right now, the odds of him saying Good afternoon at his next press conference are 96% so remember this, the market has always felt confident about where rates are headed, and the market has always been wrong. Interest rates don't drive property values. Their intrinsic worth is based on the timeless stuff, location, amenities, income, occupancy, size, density, business case, exit options and operating costs. Those are the things that drive property values. The bottom line with interest rates is that nobody knows the future interest rates direction is a pinball game of black swans and policy pivots. So instead, focus on the big things that you can control, like how many dollars you have, leveraging properties and keeping your operations on those properties efficient. So Jeter waiting to buy property generally harms an investor more than it helps them, because it's dollars on the sidelines that are paying the opportunity cost of not leveraging other people's money. Of course, if you buy your property at whatever interest rate today, and rates soon fall like a knife, well, then you can refinance at the lower rate, all while leverage keeps compounding and building your wealth. Thanks for the question,  Jeter.    If you have a listener question or comment or feedback of any type for us, as always, you can visit us at get rich education.com/contactfor either written or voice communication there, like I said earlier, that amazingly interesting centipede like chart of just how dreadful interest rate predictions have really been that was in our recent newsletter. Now it's too late for you to get that issue, but to get more like them, you can get our don't Quit your Daydream. Newsletter, completely free, just text GRE to 66866 that's text GRE to 66866.   now, when it comes to this month's historically bad, devastating LA area wildfires, I heard from a friend in that area last week. She lives just south of LA and her house was spared, fortunately, but she's been busy helping friends in the LA area who have lost their homes and businesses. It is truly tragic. And you know, what she told me, is the biggest, most compelling need right now, and I put some credence in this, since it's an independent on the ground report. This is outside of major media, displaced residents. Number one need is not food, it's not water, it's not clothing, it's not heat, it's not even community with 1000s of families without homes, the urgent need is for housing. You might not find that surprising. That's what she shared with me. I mean, it is a need so dire that even a family of six would consider a small mobile home or an RV rental to help with temporary housing. And a lot of these displaced families were you know, you got to consider the fact that before the fire, they were living in above average homes, even luxury homes. Now, as far as LA area, landlords that have housing to rent out, a lot of those landlords have jacked up the rent price. California's anti price gouging. Laws make it illegal for landlords to raise rent by more than 10% in the first month to six months after a disaster is declared. Now the BBC reported that one resident who lost their home in the historic California wildfires found a rental property that was previously priced at $13,000 per month, they offered $20,000 per month, and the landlord countered with 23k that is a 75% price hike. And it's not the only example. A Bel Air home located in an evacuation warning zone was listed on Zillow recently at 29,500bucks a month. That is an 86% hike from its September of last year price. That's according to the outlet called La est, another realtor raised in Encino, California, listing from 9k per month at the beginning of this month to 11 and a half K after the fires started. That's according to the LA Times. The realtor then backpedaled to abide by the 10% rule, which she said that she did not know about. And for a little context there, yes, those rent prices sound high, and La rent was already high. It averaged $2,820 a month. That's compared to $1,983a month nationally. Those figures are per Zillow. Now I don't know what percentage of La landlords are engaging in. I guess what I'll call extortionate behavior, but even if it's the vast minority of landlords you know that gives them a bad name, to have the word landlord in headlines like this. And is this behavior extortionate? In some cases, it probably is, I suspect, just a guess here that some landlords might think they have a chance of insurance paying some or all of the higher rent for their tenant that was displaced from their original home. But let's keep things in perspective here. What this does to good landlords reputations. You know, that's not the story here. The story and the effort should be in helping the displaced people. And of course, there are so many angles to the devastating la wildfires. One of them is that many believe zoning laws pushed homes out into fire prone areas. I recently shared that reason.com article with you in our free newsletter. So again, to get our Don't quit your Daydream newsletter, completely free, which I write every word of myself. Text GRE to 6866 you can do it now, while it's on your mind, hit pause and text GRE to 66866 the abject lunacy in Canada's real estate market, in what US residents and others can learn from all this, that's next. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to get rich education.   Hey, you. Can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at Ridge lendinggroup.com That's ridgelendinggroup.com.   Oh geez, the national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings, so your bank is getting rich off of you. You've got to earn way more, or else you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to a 10% return and compounds year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And you know how I know, because I'm an investor in this myself, earn 10% like me and GRE listeners are text family to 66866, to learn about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text family to 66866   Naresh Vissa  26:41   this is GRE real estate investment coach. Naresh Vissa don't live below your means, grow your needs. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold.   Keith Weinhold  26:57   Welcome back to get rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, let's discuss the Canadian economy and Canadian real estate. Because even if you live in the US or Central America or Europe or one of the other 187 nations that were heard in outside the US, you know there are lessons here for you, and there are lessons here for me as well. There is some just jaw dropping material that I'm about to share with you, and I won't discuss the politics of it, because that's not GRE 's lane. Instead, it is the policy. Earlier this month, Canada's equivalent of the President, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced that he will be resigning soon. And Trudeau has been under a lot of criticism. At last check, his approval rating was a miserable 22% now, most people think that the next and future Prime Minister of Canada will be a man named Pierre Poilievre. In fact, the wagering site poly market has polyev with an over 80% chance of being Canada's next prime minister, and you will hear him speak shortly here. And yes, that is how an Anglophone pronounces his last name, polyev In a recent interview with Dr Jordan Peterson. You'll listen into here shortly. Polyev, Canada's likely next leader here, first, he describes some of the problems with Canada's economy, and then he'll get into their real estate market. Right now, the median home price in the United States is about 450k you might think that Canada's should be lower, because Canada has more land in the US and Canada has just about 1/9 of the US population. So a low population density. I mean, the US is population density is more than 10 times Canada's. But no, due to some of these policies, it's just the opposite, because Canada's average home is over 725k. yeah, that's just for a basic home. I've got to admit, I did not know who polyev was until just a couple months ago. I'm starting to like him the more that I listen to him. He's a clear thinker and a clear speaker. Here is a clip of Canada's likely next leader talking about Canada's problems. This is 10 and a half minutes long. I'm going to listen to this again with you right now, and then I will come back along with you to comment. This is why you can't buy a house in Trudeau, Canada.    Unknown Speaker  29:41   Our productivity is another major problem right now, and that's productivity. Sounds complicated. It's actually extremely simple. You just take the GDP and you divide it by the hours worked in the country. So American GDP is $80 so for every hour an American worker works, on average. He or she produces $80 of GDP in Canada, it 50. So that's every hour. So that means we have to work 60% more just to make the same amount and have the same level of income to buy food and housing. And so that's the Now that sounds like a bunch of wonk speak that should might seem like it only matters to someone staring at a spreadsheet or a graph or a chart, but in fact, that's reflected in the fact that our 2 million people are lined up at food banks because they can't afford food, and 80% of youth can't afford homes, and our quality of life is and the things we can afford to provide our kids have fallen back so much there's a real, real life, Stark and easily comprehensible statistic. And if you work and you produce $80 worth of goods and services in an hour, yeah, compared to working and producing 50, obviously, that's a substantial shortfall. Yeah. So, and is that, is there a starker indicator of the economic disparity between the US and Canada than that? Or do you think that's the primary statistic? I mean, I think housing costs are another one. I mean, right. There was a study out just 10 days ago that has Toronto and Vancouver now by far the most unaffordable housing markets in North America. And so you know, housing costs are 50% higher in Toronto than they are in Chicago, even though Chicago workers make 50% more money. The same is true between Vancouver and Seattle. Seattle workers make way more than Vancouver workers, but housing is 60 or 70% more expensive in Vancouver. So on, all the measures by a lot. Yes, a lot by a lot. Yeah, and we're and we're paying more, more by a lot, right? And most of that's transpired the last 10 years. Yes, and we're paying the difference by accumulating enormous quantities of debt. Our households are by far the most indebted in the g7. when you take you divide total household debt by GDP, we now have a bigger stock of household debt than our entire economy. We are more indebted as households than the Americans were right before the oh eight financial crisis. And so what we have as a model in Canada is we have artificial scarcity imposed by very heavy and restrictive state, confiscatory state, so that suppresses production. But in order to allow for consumption, we print money and borrow money and then flood the economy with that money. Okay, so that's another problem. So that's the inflationary problem. Yes. Now the problem with inflation just many problems with inflation, but one of them is that it particularly punishes people who are thrifty and who save? Yes, right, right? So inflation punishes the people who forego gratification to invest in the future. That's right, right? So that's a very bad idea. It's our inflation is the single most immoral tax for so many reasons. One, it takes from savers and people who are trying to be responsible, thus making it impossible to be responsible, because you will, if you, if you refuse to play the inflation game of borrowing money to buy things you can't afford, someone else inevitably will, and you won't be able to afford anything. So you ultimately have to actor responsibly. It's like Milton Friedman was asked, What would you do with your money in times of inflation? He said, spend it right like the first thing you want to do when inflation is out of control is to make sure you get rid of this thing that's losing its value. The second reason it's immoral is it takes from the poor, because the poorest people cannot put they do not have the ability to buy inflation proof assets like gold and real estate and fancy watches and art collections and wine fancy wines and things that go up with or even exceed inflation. So it's a very big wealth transfer from the have to the from the from the poor and the working class to the very, very wealthy, a very small group of people actually get richer. So the socialist policies that provide goods and services to Canadians, let's say, or denizens of other countries by printing money, actually punish the poor brutally. Oh, absolutely, and consequence of the inflation that they generate. Yes, I mean all the socialist policies in practice take redistribute from the working class to the super wealthy in practice, and I can prove that again and again and again in practice, yeah, in practice. In practice they with the all the redistribution that happens in the so called socialist countries ultimately goes from the working class to the super wealthy. That is the reality. Okay, so, but just one last thing on inflation. The final reason why it's so immoral is nobody votes on it. The basic principle of our parliamentary system is the government can't tax what parliament has not voted the people must no taxation without representation, right? But no one ever votes to have the money printing happen. And so the inflation is adopted secretly, and you blame the grocer because groceries are more expensive, or your local gas station because gas is more or your realtor because house, in fact, it was actually the government that bid up all of those things with money printing, and you didn't even know about it. So it is silent. It's a silent thief that takes from the poor and gives to the richest people and destroys the working class. And that's why I am I want to crush inflation. We need a policy that seeks to just to stop inflation at all, at all costs. Okay, so what would you do to to stop inflation? Well, we stopped the money printing. You know, we need a we need. And the money printing is just a means to fund deficit spending. Governments borrow to define the deficit, yeah, for people. So basically, the deficit is the difference between what the government spends and what it brings in. It's usually calculated on a yearly basis, that's right, yeah, and the debt, but the debt is just the accumulation of the deficits, right? So the deficit right now is $62 billion and I thought it had a ceiling of 41 billion. Yeah, right. Isn't that a ceiling? Yes, not a I guess not. And look, there are very real present day consequences for that. Deficits increase the money supply. Central banks effectively facilitate that increase in the money supply, and that causes inflation. And, you know, it's, it's why our, you know, I have a buddy who's whose family moved here from Italy back in 1973 His father worked paving roads and his mother made sandwiches in a senior's home, they were able to pay off their home 10 minutes from Parliament Hill in seven years. Right, their grandchildren wouldn't be able to save up a down payment for that home in 15 years, and they will be university educated with all the advantages of having been here two decades. That is the consequence of the money supply growing vastly quicker than the stuff that money buys. So we have to do is stop growing the money supply and start growing the stuff money buys. Right? Produce more energy, grow more food, build more homes. We have to unleash the free enterprise system to produce more stuff of value, and this is where we have to remove the artificial scarcity that the government is imposing on the population. Let's incentivize our municipalities to grant the fastest building permits in the world to build homes. You have a plan for that in principle, yes, I mean, I'm going to say to the municipal governments, they either, they either speed up permits, cut Development Charges and free up land, or they will lose their federal infrastructure money, so they will have a powerful carrot and stick incentive to speed up home building and the percentage of a new house price. That's a consequence of government, taxation and regulation. Well, in Vancouver, it's 60% 66 does that include the land and the house? Yes, that includes everything. So I'll tell you how they calculate it, CD, how took the cost of building a compare the cost of building a home to the cost of buying a home, yeah. And he said, what's the gap between those two things? So they added up land, labor, profit for the developer, materials, and they compared that to the sale price, and they found the gap was $1.2 million so that's $1.2 million of extra cost, above and beyond the materials, the labor, the land and the profit for the developer. So where's that going? Well? The answer is, development charges,sales taxes, land transfer taxes, the delays in getting the permit. Time is money, the consultants, lawyers, accountants, lobbyists that the developer has to hire in order to get the approval that so in other words, we're spending twice in Vancouver. We spend twice as much on bureaucrats than we do on all other things combined. To build a home, more money goes to bureaucrats than goes to the carpenters, electricians and plumbers who build the place. And to add insult to injury, those trades people who build homes can't afford to live in them, right? I mean, it is. So what we need to do is slash the bureaucracy. And I'm going to I'm going to say to the mayors, you're not getting federal infrastructure money until you slash your development charges, speed up your permits. I'm going to take. The Federal GST off new homes under a certain limit, and encourage the provinces to do the same. But we've got so much land. We should have the most affordable housing in the world. We have. It should be dirt cheap because we have the most dirt we just need to get the government out of the way.    Keith Weinhold  40:20   Yeah, again, that was Dr Jordan Peterson interviewing Canada's likely next leader, Pierre poilievre, just a few weeks ago now. Polyev, when discussing inflation and investing, you know, he also brought up points that I've surfaced here on the show over the past few years. He even articulates a few things the way I've described them. It's almost weird, like inflation means that it actually makes sense to strategically borrow and spend and not to save. It's almost like polyev is a GRE listener. I love how he said, stop growing the money supply and start growing the things that money buys. We're talking about things like homes and energy and food. That was eloquent. I mean, in Vancouver, the percentage of a new house cost for taxation and regulation is 60% of the cost of the home, fully 60 and then, if that's not surprising enough, due to all these layers of regulation, the cost of building a new home is $1.2 million more than the cost of buying an existing home. Just astounding. This might have even left you either flabbergasted or gobsmacked, which one?So some parallels to the US there in Canada, but back here in the US, the housing market is clearly more affordable and healthier. Polyev really pointed out a direction that the US does not want to fall into. In fact, we've got a pretty good Canadian listening contingent. So let me ask, Do you have a connection to Pierre poilievre, if you do, we would probably like to invite him here on to the show with us. If you do, or you even know someone that knows someone, let us know right into get rich education.com/contact or email us directly at info@get rich education.com and we'll make that happen now. What is happening at GRE marketplace right now is that our listeners are getting brand new build investment property in Florida and some other places at competitive prices and a fixed interest rate of just four and three quarters percent. So yes, that is sub Canadian prices, by far below Canadian prices, and a four and three quarter percent rate. And then on top of that, you get to pay an affordable insurance premium in Florida because it's new build, or similarly, it's that way in other states if you buy new build, but builders overbuilt in some pockets of Florida, like I've mentioned to you before. So at this time, on top of all that, they're offering a free full year of property management. And because when you own a new build property, it's not occupied with tenants on day one, and this means that you don't inherit unknown tenants. And builders are also offering you up to three months in a rent guarantee in case your single family home or duplex or four Plex is not occupied yet, the builder would pay the rent for you. Really amazing incentives, but probably none better than that four and three quarter percent mortgage rate. I mean, it's like you get to roll the clock back to when rates were artificially low, back in 2021, and 2022, and lock it in. Now, our GRE investment coaches connect you with the investment property that's right for you based on your needs and your goals, including those four and three quarter percent rates, if you so choose, it is all free at GRE marketplace. From GRE marketplace.com just click on the coaching area and you can book a time right there until next week. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.    Unknown Speaker  44:23   nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively   Unknown Speaker  44:51   The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building get rich education.com you.  

Independent documentary filmmaker and policy analyst at Reason Foundation, Jen Sidorova, joins us to discuss how rent control impacts tenants, landlords and the housing market. Her latest short film project, “Shabbification: The Story of Rent Control”, reflects how rent control has a direct effect on housing quality. Almost half of rentals in NYC are rent-stabilized. We highlight the challenges faced by small property owners and the potential consequences of these regulations on the housing market. Bathtub in your kitchen, anyone? Yes, you read that correctly. In some cases maintenance has been deferred for so long that units have not been updated to code. Learn about the history of rent control and stabilization laws in New York. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/515 You can follow Jen on Instagram @jen_sidorova or check out her writing at reason.org For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Will you please leave a review for the show? I'd be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE' to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai   Keith Weinhold  0:01   Welcome to GRE. I discuss the effect that now lower mortgage rates can have how to get a strong return with private lending. Then, for this week's guest, she is a public policy expert with reason.com maker of a new film called Shabbification that spotlights the perils and even horrors of rent control in New York City, and she's a young Russian immigrant that lives in one unit of a Buffalo fourPlex and rents out the other three today on Get Rich Education.    When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. Oh, at no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life. See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text, GRE to 66866, and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called the Don't quit your Daydream letter, and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866. Corey Coates  1:40   you're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.   Keith Weinhold  1:56   Welcome to GRE from Ankara,Turkey to Anchorage, Alaska and across 488 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you're listening to Get Rich Education. Today's guest was one of four panelists at a conference that I attended recently. The panel was named innovative solutions to the housing crisis, and her story struck me as interesting, so I invited her to be on the show today, we'll learn that with rent control in New York City, when landlords cannot go inside their own properties and aren't allowed to sell their own properties, seven states have price ceilings on rents, and I'll tell you here At GRE we avoid investing in these places. Listen closely, California, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Maine, Oregon, Minnesota and then DC too. Now sometimes rent control isn't too restrictive. For example, you can raise the rent no more than the rate of inflation plus 3% per year, or the rate of inflation plus 5% per year. And also, it's not all parts of those states where it applies. In fact, you typically do not find the policies statewide in those states that I mentioned, although you do in Oregon, it's statewide in Oregon, and there you can still raise the rent 7% plus the rate of inflation each year. And the good news is that 37 states actually have laws against rent control, specifically saying that you cannot enact it. So not only do 37 states not have it, they just wouldn't even allow a law for it. And there is a strong consensus, like I mentioned here on the show before, among economists that rent control, it reduces the quantity and quality of housing. Today, we'll focus on just how dilapidated rental units become under rent stabilization, which is a lot like rent control in New York City. And we'll discuss New York State and Buffalo. And by the way, I find something amazing. I mean, just say you would ask a question of any citizen of the world, no matter where they live, from Indonesia to Japan, to Bangladesh, to Nigeria to the United States. If you would just ask any citizen of the world, what is the capital of the world? I think that the best answer that you could come up with is New York City. I'm in the United States, and there are people right here in this country that have such little understanding of New York City, and what goes on there, and where it even is, it just amazes me. Maybe it's my own bias, because I'm a geography guy, but now, for example, to get from New York City out to Buffalo, that's an almost seven hour drive to the northwest two different parts of New York State. These are two very different places. We'll get into that shortly. But first in the wider real estate world, I did a little research since first mentioning this to you last week here, where mortgage rates have fallen fully one and a half points from the recent high. All right. Well, with every half point drop in mortgage rates, like I learned from First American, that's my source. With every half point drop in mortgage rates, about 1.1 million additional American households can qualify to buy an entry level home that's defined as the bottom 25% priced here. That's the number, and I checked their math. So with a full point drop in mortgage rates, then 2.2 million more American households can qualify to buy an entry level home. So we could very well have more buyers here soon, but yeah, when all these homeowners are still locked into three and 4% mortgage rates, I don't know that you're gonna have that many more sellers. So with demand exceeding supply, look for more upward pressure on home prices, especially higher values for those entry level homes that make the best rentals. Now, I'm talking about borrowing right there. And what happens when rates go down for mortgages, when they go down for borrowing? Well, rates on savings accounts, they typically fall as well. And this is a scenario that a lot of people expect. Now, most of my real estate activity is a borrower. I'm always here touting the virtues of how leverage builds wealth, and I know that I don't want to be a saver. So for my more liquid funds, I am a lender, and I'm reliably paid a stable 8% interest rate. And I think I've told you before that for years now, I make loans to real estate companies, and they use my funds to rehab properties and for other operations. Yes, an 8% return that I'm getting, and it's almost like getting an 8% yield on a savings account, and it's not expected to fall when interest rates fall. Well, the primary difference is that I often have to wait a few months if I want my full principal return, but not years. So it's not as rigid as a bank CD, but it's not as liquid as an old fashioned bank savings account. So the private real estate company that I've long made loans to works pretty diligently to maintain asset value and assure optimal returns. They'll tell you that they've never missed making a payment for their private money lending programs. And I did a little research, and I found that their fund utilization is 99.6% that really means that they deploy almost all of the capital if you want, you can potentially get a high yield at the same place I do. Sometimes you can get more than 8% or less than an 8% return, depending on what liquidity terms you want and what other terms you like. The company is Freedom Family Investments. They are real estate centric. If you want, go right ahead and learn more. You can do that by texting FAMILY to 66866. Remember, you're the lender, they're the borrower. And again, for most investment types, I want to be the borrower, but for liquid funds, and the fact that the rate of inflation is now down, an 8% return has a higher real yield now than it did two years ago and one year ago. And again, I'm happy to share it with you. It's Freedom Family Investments. If you want to learn more, do it now while it's on your mind and text FAMILY to 66866.    This week, our guest is a public policy expert that's also involved with a film called Shabbification, the story of rent control. Hey, welcome to GRE Jen Sidorova.   Jen Sidorova  9:16   Good to be here. Thank you for having me.    Keith Weinhold  9:18   Yeah and congrats. Shabbification screening in a lot of places, like the Anthem Film Festival at Freedom Fest last month and this month in New York City, tell us about the film.   Jen Sidorova  9:31    Yeah, so in Shabbification, I follow small property owners like myself who are subject to regulation, and most of them are owners of rent stabilized properties in the city of New York. Right, I follow three specific landlords. I They take me to their homes, they take me to their properties, and they show me around, and you can visually see what regulation has done to their property. Yeah, one of these properties was occupied by a tenant. From 1969 up until 2021 wow. And the landlord was never allowed to be in the property, so obviously no repairs were made. And you could see visually that the apartment was like from the 60s. It's like a museum, but not in a good way, because it's really falling apart, right? So it's like, almost like a Tenement Museum, or, you know, another museum New York City, where we they actually preserve those dates. But in this case, a private landlord actually owns that space, and they're having a difficult time. And so what my specific Shabbification With my film is about is a very specific regulation in New York City that happened in 2019 that applied to rent stabilized properties. What it did that is that it won't allow landlords to put them properties on the market even if they rent stabilized tenant vacates them. They're no longer allowed to put their properties on the market at all. And more than that, they are also not allowed to raise rent, even if they do repairs. So sometimes the cost of repairs in New York City for one bedroom unit can be 200,000 and they're only allowed to raise the rent by like roughly $90 a month, and only for 15 years. So it will take them, like, 200 years to recoup their investment. And obviously that doesn't make any sense, so stories like that is what my short film is about. I myself am a small property owner, so it was very special for me to go and kind of tell the story of people like me.   Keith Weinhold  11:36   That's amazing. So rent stabilization something that New York City has a history of. I sort of think of that as a genteel term or rent control. And a lot of times when your rent can't be raised above a certain amount, you get these long term tenants, in some cases, for decades, and in this case, over 50 years, with this particular tenant in New York City and landlords don't have much of any incentive to improve property when rent control is in place, because they know they cannot get a commensurate bump in rent.   Speaker 1  12:11   rent control and rent stabilization are a form of government enforced limit on the rents. And in New York we have two laws that govern that we have more but the most prominent ones are the rent control law of 1969 and the Rent Stabilization Act of 1974 so back in the day, there were issues with availability of affordable housing, and the government was trying to fix it, and that fix was supposed to be temporary. It was supposed to eventually run out once the tenants who were currently in place at the time in late 60s and 70s, once they move out, landlords were able to put those properties back on the market. And eventually, that's kind of what was going on up until 2019 when housing stability and Tenant Protection Act made it so that the landlords could no longer put their rent stabilized properties on the market anymore. So essentially, all rent stabilization became permanent in the state of New York, and actually, in the just a couple of weeks after my film, in April of 2024 we had another law. It's called Good Cause Eviction, and that one regulates every landlord or enterprise who owns more than 11 units. So once you own 11 units or more, you're subject to regulation. You can no longer evict your tenant without a good cause. And there's a bunch of other rules that apply, including the limit on how much rent you can raise year to year. So yeah, that's certainly what's going on. That's roughly the landscape all regulation in New York.   Keith Weinhold  13:44    Yeah, some of this is really punitive, because if rent control comes into a market, that's one thing sometimes that landlords want to do. They want to sell their property, and in some cases, there's a roadblock against that. You know, Jen, I looked up the definition of Shabbification. I just simply googled the term. Urban Dictionary had one of the first hits, and fortunately, it was a G rated definition there in urban dictionary, it was defined as the opposite of gentrification. So therefore with Shabbification, it's where a neighborhood goes through deterioration and despair. So tell us about some more of those bad cases of deterioration, in despair, in Shabbification. Just how bad does it get?   Speaker 1  14:30   Well, one of the properties that we went to was basically from 1910 it was in Chinatown, and we saw was that the bathtub was in the kitchen in that property, oh my gosh. And I believe that was a way for them to do renovations fast and cheap, like 100 years ago. And because that property falls under rent stabilization, and there's obviously limits on how much rent you can charge. So. Landlords of those properties never really make renovations. Sometimes you could see cases like the director of photography, who was in the film, he lives in a rent sabilized property, and in his case, he has a shower unit in his kitchen as well. Instead of a tub, he has a shower unit. And it kind of is, as he described as one of those telephone booths, like, you know, red telephone booths from London, and then kind of just sits in the kitchen, and you obviously cannot really have company or friends visiting or dinner or anything if you have something like that. But those are the setups that we frequently see. Also a lot of things like uneven floors or just, you know, the property, if it's not being taken care of, there might be, like, a hole in the wall, a hole in the ceiling, or the ceiling is falling out. And those are really graphic images. And we do, we do capture them on camera a lot in Shabbification, and that comes from, kind of, my attraction to urban decay. I do enjoy, you know, touring older buildings, or maybe buildings that are preserved as a ruin, maybe like an old prison and or like an old mental asylum. I do do that a lot. It's just a hobby when I travel. So I was always attracted to that esthetic, and that does show in my film as well. I think I love studying the tragedy because I love studying how the hope died, because it's fascinating to me. It's very specific to usually a town or a city, and then just is so telling, and it's such a teaching moment for us as a society to kind of revisit those stories and figure out why did that hope die. And you can see a lot of that in the film.    Keith Weinhold  16:41   it's a great way to scratch one's itch for I suppose, seeing real life haunted houses, if you will, in Jen's film Shabbification here. Well, Jen, we've been talking about the conditions of the tenants. Why don't we talk more about how the landlord is portrayed in Shabbification.    Speaker 1  17:00   since this is the story, primary of the landlords, not so much on the tenant. You know, normally in this sort of films and these sort of documentaries, the story falls in tenant, because the tenant is the one who is seen as likable and sympathetic person, and that's how, and that's usually a more preferable framing angle. But in my story, my story is a story of a merchant class, or like a more, like a war on the merchant class, the war on landlords. Because in the state of New York, no matter how small or large of a landlord you are, whether you own one unit or 1000 by a lot of people in New York State Legislature as a landlord, you're seen as evil. They think you've done something wrong and you have to be punished. So that's the attitude to a lot of landlords, and although they're not that many small property owners, and sometimes we're not seen as a sympathetic I think this is the story that we need to tell, because some of them are like me. I am an immigrant to this country. Once I got an opportunity, I got my first rental property in Buffalo, New York, and right away, I've been renting out three units and lived in one, and I still do own it. Five years later, I live alongside with my tenants. When I go on vacations, they feed my cat, and when they go travel for work, I do take care of their properties. I water their plants, do things like that. So we do live as a small community, and this is something that a lot of people do in Buffalo, because it's a working class city. It's very hard to be able to afford a single family home. Right away, what you can do is acquire one of these properties, either a two unit, three or four unit, because when you're four units less, then you can do an FHA loan, which I did, and you can put minimum amount down, which I did, and then day one, right away, the income from the tenants was paying off my mortgage, right? That's kind of how I can build generational wealth. But not only that, that's how I can start my journey of home ownership and hopefully building generational wealth in the future, as I've said. And I also have my own passion for buildings, and we did a lot of renovations with my family on that property. So there's a lot of heart and soul in that space. And laws like rent control and Good Cause Eviction, they put a cap on people like me and how much we can grow. Because, as I've mentioned, the Good Cause Eviction in New York, it puts a cap on how far and how big people like me can grow. Because once you have 11 units, that's my cap. Once I have 11 units, I have subject to regulation, and somebody like me cannot afford having a tenant who would just never move out. So yeah, I think these laws, they intended to protect the needy. They intended to protect the families, but they do just the opposite. They. Just limit how much we can grow, and they also just make an environment within our properties very toxic, because tenants now basically have more rights than we do.   Keith Weinhold  20:09   Yeah, well, you're really humanizing the plight of the landlord here, Jen with your four Plex over there. For those that aren't familiar with the geography in western New York in Buffalo, sort of the opposite end of the state where New York City is. And, yeah, I mean, landlords are usually portrayed in media is these people that are sort of greedy and bumbling and they won't fix the broken air conditioner. And, you know, it's, it's unusual to me, Jen, that a lot of people tend to resent landlords, whom are often small business owners, but yet they champion other small business owners. And talk about how, you know, small business ownership is the very heart of America. I'm trying to figure out why that is, you know, maybe some tenants that just don't really understand how things work. Just think, well, why should I have to pay this landlord. All I'm doing is sort of renting air or renting space. But you know, one group of tenants that does not seem to resent landlords, Jen, in my experience, that is people that were previously homeowners and are now tenants. They don't seem to resent landlords, and that's probably because that tenant that has experience being a homeowner. They've seen bills for property tax and property insurance and mortgage principal and mortgage interest and maintenance and repairs. I think that's what makes the difference.    Jen Sidorova  21:33   Yeah, definitely. It's almost like, you know, when I lived with my parents, I didn't pay attention to the bills, like election bills or water bills or anything. But once you start living on your own, you now see how it gets deducted from your account, and then it changes you, adds you towards consumption, changes right? You now turn off the light when you leave and do just small things like that. And that's a similar psychology that works with people who previously owned their own homes. I think what the dynamic that's happening here with tenants is there's always going to be more tenants than landlords, so tenants have a lot more political power, and we see a lot of that in New York. We have a lot of tenant groups, tenant unions, who are very hold a little, a lot of political power. And it's one side of it, another side of it is that a lot of these policies do benefit large landlords, in a sense that once the small property owner is no longer able to keep up the property and they just foreclose on it, a larger landlord can always pick it up. And for large landlords, these costs of litigating with the tenant, or the cost of fixing a unit, or even the cost of having somebody live without paying for a few months, these are just the costs of running business, whereas for somebody like me, it's a significant chunk of my income, right? So at the moment, I think it's like 25% of my income is coming from the rentals, so it's significant. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, on the other side of political power, I just legislators who do not want to see private rentals. You know, small property owners having rentals and Damn, motivations are something else. It's almost like, if there's one conspiracy theory that I believe in, is that one you know, is that there is a war on the merchant class among some legislators, especially in the state of New York, who really just do not want to see small property owners providing housing to the community, and they would rather see it in in the hands of larger developers, and that's just the nature of how political process works, sometimes.   Keith Weinhold  23:45   in the broad business world, large institutional corporations, they're often pro regulation for just the reason you talked about it helps put smaller operators out of business that can't bear the expense of dealing with the regulation. But yeah, your film Shabbification, it helps underscore the fact that rent control, it stifles the free market in the process of price discovery. I mean really that price discoveries, that is the process of supply versus demand, with the referee being the price and finding that right rent amount, and amidst this low housing supply we have, it's just really bad timing for any jurisdiction to enact rent control. Existing landlords stop improving property. Builders stop building new property, and it can make landlords want to sell, like we touched on earlier. But also I'd like to talk about making the other case, the case for rent control. When we come back, we're talking with public policy expert Jan siderova, the maker of a film called shabbatation, where we come back. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at. Ridge lending group  NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. 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Family investments, liquidity fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, family 266, 866,   Caeli Ridge  26:32   This is Ridge Lending Group's president, Caeli Ridge. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and remember, don't quit your Daydream.   Keith Weinhold  26:52   Welcome back to Get Rich Education. We're talking with a really interesting guest, Jen Sidorova. She's the maker of a new film called Shabbification. This centers on rent control and dilapidated housing conditions. And Jen, you know, I've talked about here on both this episode and another episode a few weeks ago about the deleterious downstream consequences of rent control. It benefits a small group of people in the short term and ends up with deteriorated neighborhoods in a lot of municipalities, but I like to look at things from the other side. What is the case for rent control?   Jen Sidorova  27:27   So I think the the original story behind the rent control in New York City was that in the 70s, it was just really dire situation, kind of what we're going through right now. Right now in New York we have the housing crisis that's the worst in the last 50 years, so basically right around the 70s again. So the current vacancy rate is like 2% and at the same time, we have between 20 to 60,000 rent stabilized rent control units that are vacant because landlords just do not want to put them in more on the market, because talking just in New York City here, yeah, just New York City. And New York City has roughly 1 million of rent stabilized or rent control properties altogether. But yeah, so what is the case for rent control, right? So in my opinion, what is the most problematic saying about rent control or rent stabilization right now, the way the current laws are in New York City is that the property itself is being stabilized or controlled. It's not the person. It doesn't matter how much money you're making. If you're making half a million dollars, you can still live in an apartment that's like 500 $600 a month, right?   Keith Weinhold  28:38   You can have your second lavish vacation home out in the Hamptons, and it doesn't matter.    Jen Sidorova  28:42   Yeah, you can live in Texas for like, nine months out of a year, and come back to New York City for the summer, and then people do that. That's like, not, I'm not making it up. It's a real thing. People are basically hoarding these rent stabilized rent control units, and they just never let them go. And that definitely pushes out young people out of the city. It pushes immigrants out of the city, because people, yeah, all the newcomers. So that's what's going on. So instead of having a property itself being controlled, what could be done? Maybe like a voucher program, maybe like a housing voucher program, but we can only do this if we let the rent control and rent stabilization laws sunset. So once the current tenants move out, that has to be put back on the market, right? So what we could do is the housing voucher program maybe, so that we will always have people in the society that need a little bit of help, but it shouldn't be in such a way that they it's the landlord who is paying for it, right? So if there's a housing voucher, they can live wherever and however that program works in the sense that whoever picks up the rest of the bill, as long as it's not a landlord directly. Yeah, so that's how I see it. And I think just other things that can be done is better zoning regulation that allow more buildings to be built a lot of New York City. Is like a museum, right? We have a lot of historic buildings, a lot of preservation of all the buildings, but we have to reevaluate that, because we don't necessarily have to have the East Village look like a museum if we don't have enough housing, right? So we have to reassess of how much of those policies we still want to hold on to, and then maybe also building codes. Sometimes it's really hard to expand or have more units within the same building. If I have a four unit property and I want to convert it into five units, I am subject to whole different regulation and a whole different bunch of coding, whereas my square footage remains the same. So I think we have to revisit that, because a lot of these new materials that we work with when building are safe right now. So maybe we could let people do more with their properties, and that way we provide more house.   Keith Weinhold  30:50   Yeah. Well, some of this comes down to, how do you get politicians to say no to rent control, which I believe is part of the motivation of your film?    Jen Sidorova  31:01   Right, So the motivation behind myself was that I bought my property in 2019 I went under contract in 2019 and I fully acquired the rights in March of 2020 and between the August of 2019 and 2020 we had a new law passed that was housing stability and Tenant Protection Act 2019 in New York State, and that kind of put a cap on how much I can raise the rent if the tenant remains the same. And at the time when I found that out, I was like, well, that's kind of quirky, but whatever, what can I do? But then a year from that, like in 2021 we had a new mayoral candidate who was a socialist, openly socialist person, and they were advocating for rent control. And at the time, I had an opportunity to go to do a film workshop, and I was thinking, so what is that I really wanted to write film about? And I was this, definitely rent control, because it's relevant for me. It's the story of my people among small property owners, and that's how I did it. And I really want policy action. The idea behind this film, the goal is policy change, right? But this short film is only the beginning of my project, which is exploration of the topic prevent control in the state of New York and everywhere else in the country, and we keep interviewing more people, more experts, and to convert into a larger film, and then hopefully, like a full feature documentary, in order to educate both policymakers and the public about what rent control can do. And eventually, we do hope for policy change in New York, and hopefully, with this film, no more new rent control can happen, or at least when politicians start those bills, they take a look and talk to me and make some changes.    Keith Weinhold  32:52   Well, you're really doing some good work there. I appreciate that. I mean, rent control is analogous to price controls, and we see what happens when there's price controls per se foods like you've seen in other nations in previous decades, and that's how you end up with bread lines, because producers don't want to produce bread when they would have to take a loss and they can't profit on selling that bread. You see a shortage of housing come up just the same, like you do with bread. Well, tell us some more about Buffalo and its market. You had touched on it previously. I think they have lots of older two to four unit buildings there. It sounds like you found one of the four plexes where you could do the owner occupied thing. FHA, three and a half percent down 12 month owner occupancy period. Minimum credit score only needs to be 580 at last check, which is the same way I began with the four Plex building. But yeah, let's learn more about the buffalo housing market. Just a little bit there with rental properties and then the rising tide against Airbnb, like you touched on last month when we met in person.   Jen Sidorova  33:56   Right, so a lot of those properties, a lot of those older homes, were built around the late 1800s beginning or 1900 and that's how they used to build back in the day. Because what would happen is that a large Victorian home with two primarily stories, with two large floors and then maybe an attic and a basement, but one family would live on one floor and another on the second floor. So they were originally built for two homes, but at that time, both families would own that space, right? So there would be co owned by two families. Mine was also an originally a two family home that was converted into a four unit because the previous owners made an addition a lot of young families, that's how they start when they cannot afford a single family home. That's how they start with home ownership and the money that they make for with the rentals. That's how they pay mortgage partially, or maybe that's how they pay the taxes, depending on where you live in the city, sometimes tax burden can alone be very high. So as I've mentioned, we had some mayoral candidates talking about rent control, but recently we started having Airbnbs being regulated in Buffalo. And so there's a few districts in the city where Airbnb is regulated, and my district does not fall into that, and I actually am on four of my units. One is occupied by me. Two are long term tenants, and one which is the newest and the nicest one. I decided to make Airbnb interesting because I did not want to risk, you know, giving it to a long term tenant, because it's just such a nice unit. It's a lot of investment that went in there, so I didn't want it to be provided by somebody who would never leave, because the, you know, environment is just so toxic. You just don't want to take chances, unless you like, really believe in the time. But I don't know people are out here. So I decided to keep it Airbnb. And so because some of the other parts of the city are regulated, and mine is not. I am the beneficiary of that regulation because I get a lot, all of those clients, right, all those Airbnb client so in that sense, funny enough, I am benefiting from some parts of the city being regulated because my my part is not. So all the clients go to me. I do have an Airbnb right now, but we're definitely at the risk of all of the city being regulated. And I think a lot of people complain, right? People who lived in the city for a long time, allegedly, they started complaining to the city council about not recognizing their neighborhood because of Airbnb. But I think what legislators need to understand is that my generation, millennials and Gen Z. That's how we live our lives. We share our assets, right? It's like a big millennial and Gen Z thing that the Airbnb itself is a millennial thing, that this is just will be recognized, that assets like cars and houses, they can be shared, you don't have to have that many of them, even from the unit in the unit that I live in. When I I went out on a trip to Long Island last week, and I airbnbied my own unit. And so that's just how it is. That's just a little lifestyle. And when I see new people who stay in Airbnb on my street, it doesn't bother me. I kind of enjoy a little bit of a variety. But, you know, sometimes it's almost like a culture clash or a generational shift when it comes to thinking about properties and housing ownership. Yeah, that's just my experience.   Keith Weinhold  37:33   Younger generations embrace the sharing economy, and that is quite the mixed use building that you have there with your four Plex in Buffalo, you've got one unit that's a primary residence, a second unit that's a short term rental, and then two long term rental units. There's some diversification of income and utility, for sure. Well, Jen, tell us more about how our audience can connect with you, and especially how they can watch Shabbification.   Jen Sidorova  38:00   So Shabbification, right now is in the film festival circuit, so it's not available to watch yet. Although, if anyone reaches out directly to me through Instagram, my handle is @Jen_Sidorova, which is my first underscore, my last name, anyone can just reach out directly to me and I will send them a screener, and they can watch the full film. And also on my Instagram page, I do put a lot of like other content about buildings, and a lot of like videos so and some, you know, B roll footage that we haven't used in the film, but you can watch it in my Instagram. So yeah, definitely check it out. I also do write for Reason Foundation, and you can find it on my profile, my policy writing work. You can find it at reason.com and it's just under my name, pretty much Instagram and reason website.   Keith Weinhold  38:51   Jen, thanks so much for your Shabbification project. I really think it's going to help people see an important part of American society in a different light. It's been great having you here on the show.   Jen Sidorova  39:02   Thank you so much.   Keith Weinhold  39:09   I talked to Jen some more outside of our interview. Her buffalo four Plex has a high flying 1.04% rent to price ratio. I crunched it out that is super strong for a four unit building, but it is older, and like she said in the interview, she did make some substantial renovation to it, yeah, rent control is a bad plan. You know, on an episode a few weeks ago, I mentioned to you about last month's White House proposal for a sort of rent control light, that was such a bad plan. I told you that it only applies to property owners of 50 plus units, and rent increases were capped at 5% a year. Well, I dug into that release from the White House briefing room, and it's almost like they know it won't work, because. Oh my gosh, this is almost humorous. Economists and any long term thinkers will tell you that rent control doesn't work because you won't get any new builds. Well, the White House release Wood said it won't apply to new builds. It's almost like someone told them, like, hey, this won't work for that reason. So then they wrote that sentence in there, which just undermines so much of it. And economists will also tell you that what doesn't work because owners don't want to improve property well, yet, the White House release actually said it would not apply to substantially renovated property. I mean, my gosh, with these carve outs and all the other caveats that are in it that I described a few weeks ago, this White House rent control planet has no shot of going anywhere. It is lip service virtue signaling, and also would not get past a divided Congress. Really bad plan. In fact, how doomed to failure is wide scale rent control. Well, don't worry, the federal government hasn't regulated rent on private buildings since World War Two. Yeah, it's been 80 years, and it took World War Two scale conditions to bring it. Thanks again to today's guest, Jen Sidorova, with reason.com. Again, like I mentioned earlier, if you want to deploy some of your more liquid funds for a potential 8% return at the same place where I've been getting an 8% return for years, you can make a loan to a long standing real estate company for their property rehabs and other operations. This might really help you out. You can learn more by texting FAMILY to 66866, lots of great shows coming up here at GRE to actionably build your Real Estate Wealth until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your daydream.   Unknown Speaker  41:53   Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.   Keith Weinhold  42:21   The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building, GetRichEducation.com

Research Director for California YIMBY, professional city planner and author of Arbitrary Lines, Nolan Gray, joins us to discuss how zoning impacts our communities, affordability of retail and commercial real estate. Zoning laws contributing to the affordable housing crisis and what we can do about it. Shifting from NIMBY to YIMBY mindset requires understanding benefits of growth. How zoning laws prevent new development, causing housing shortages and limiting entrepreneurship. California's statewide legalization of accessory dwelling units can be seen as a successful zoning reform example. We discuss how cities like Austin and Minneapolis have seen price stabilization by allowing for more mid-rise multi-family housing near transit and job-rich areas. Learn how to connect with local policymakers and planners to advocate for policy changes that encourage more housing supply. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/514 You can follow Nolan on X @mnolangray For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Will you please leave a review for the show? I'd be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE' to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai   Keith Weinhold  00:00 Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, if you don't take the right action, inflation will make you poorer. Then the affordable housing crisis keeps your tenant as your tenant is zoning. What's ruining American cities in keeping starter homes unaffordable or just plain extinct in some areas, how do we get more apartments and more density built today on Get Rich Education. When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. Ugh. At no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life. See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text, GRE to 66866, and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called the Don't Quit Your Daydream Letter, and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866.   Corey Coates  01:38 You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.   Keith Weinhold  01:54 Welcome to GRE from Calgary, Alberta to Tirana Albania and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are listening to get rich education. When most investors think about inflation, they get it mostly wrong. Their strategy is inflation hedging. And you know, even if you successfully hedge inflation, you are really missing out. You've really got to get fired up about beating inflation. When did you get your first job? Like your first real job in your life? Let's say you did that when you were age 18. Well, that work that you did when you were 18, that created value for somebody else. And you could have done anything with your valuable youth, but instead, you chose to provide value by focusing your time and your energy to sweep floors or enter data into a spreadsheet for somebody else. You were paid for that work that you did. You were paid in dollars, well, if you just tried to store your finite energy that you expended for that employer into dollars, you will lose. Your value will be coerced away from you by your government that just incessantly and relentlessly debases the dollar that you earned at age 18, because they just keep printing more of them. Well, that money printer, which creates the inflation is then an extraction of your resources. Yeah, they extracted your resources, of your time, energy and ingenuity away from you when you were 18, and even the work that you do today, its value will get extracted away from you too. If you say, store dollars under your mattress, if you instead invest it so that its growth rate keeps up with inflation, well, then all you've done is hedge inflation. My point is, get upset about how the system extracts resources from you. And my other point is, don't hedge. Hedge just means that you're treading water. Position yourself to win instead, because you can when you buy income producing property with a loan, you don't just hedge against the inflation. You win three ways at the same time. You probably know that's called the inflation Triple Crown, a concept that I coined. You can watch the three part video series on net, free. It's now easier than ever to access, learn how to actually profit from inflation, not just hedge yourself against it. You can watch that, and it's friction free. There's no email address to leave or anything. Simply watch learn and maybe even be amazed at how you can do this. Those three videos are available. At getricheducation.com/inflationtriplecrown, that's sort of long, so you can also get there with getricheducation.com/itc. Again, that's getricheducation.com/itc. Before we talk with our guests about how zoning is making the affordable housing crisis, even worse, housing values and rents are really looking stable in today's environment. CoreLogic tells us that single family rents are up 3.2% annually. That's the highest rate in a year. And when it comes to prices, the NAR tells us that existing single family home prices hit a record high of $426,900 and that is an all time high. And note that that's existing homes, not new. So median existing homes are basically 427k now. And what does that really mean? Well, that is up 4.1% year over year, the real estate market continues to be it's sort of this tale of the equity rich versus the affordability challenged. Are you equity rich or are you affordability challenged? Well, the more property that you own, the more equity rich you are feeling, that you're going to feel, and oftentimes you're renting out property to the affordably challenged. Of course, the big buzz and a potential really turning point in the economy here or not, it really began about 10 days ago. That's when America reported weak jobs numbers, and that set the unemployment rate from 4.1% up to 4.3%. Citigroup and JP Morgan are now predicting half point Fed rate cuts in both September and November, not just quarter point cuts anymore. I mean, gosh, if there's one thing that we really know, it's that nobody really knows anything. Starting about two years ago, everyone thought a recession was eminent. Bloomberg even said there was a 100% chance that we'd have one by last year. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Everyone thought there would be six or seven Fed rate cuts this year. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You can't even completely count out of rate cut at the next meeting. I mean, sheesh, before that time, we still have two new CPI reports to come out and another jobs report. So, you know, over the long term, this is just how people act. They tend to get ahead of themselves and overreact, and that's really more of a stock market investor sort of thing. And yeah, despite the volatility, you know, us real estate investors are here more chill than Snoop Dogg was at the Olympics. All this fear, what it does is it pushes money into bonds. And when money goes into bonds, it makes mortgage rates go down, and they recently hit 16 month lows near 6.4% and if rates stay low, millions of additional Americans will be able to qualify to buy property that couldn't before, and that could really put more upward pressure on property prices, more than this 4.1% year over year appreciation that we're currently seeing. We know that lots of investors are buying properties like you, getting equity rich and serving the affordability challenge. In fact, 60% of Home Builders indicated that they sold homes to investors from February through April, while 40% reported that they didn't sell to investors. And investors now represent wholly 25% of both new and resale residential transactions and among builders that sold to investors in the past 90 days, 69% of them sold to mom and pop investors. Mom and pop investors, they're loosely defined as those that own one to 10 rental units. They may very well be you. Institutional investors, those that own 10 plus investment properties in this home builders definition here. Well, those institutional investors, they accounted for just 4% of investor sales nationally. So again, more home builders are selling to small real estate investors, those that own one to 10 units. Well, now in almost 10 years of doing the show here, we've never had a full discussion about zoning, and really this is the time. Okay, this ends today because we describe how it's contributing to the affordable housing crisis and what we can do about it. I mean, anymore you really can't find a brand new build 250k starter home anymore, unless maybe it's a tiny home, which then really isn't a full home, and you sacrifice your lifestyle. Well, zoning is a big reason why the Supreme Court decision that deemed zoning constitutional that occurred in 1926. Yes, that's going to turn 100 in the year 2026 that Supreme Court decision that infamously referred to apartments as parasites. Wow. But yet is some zoning good? I mean, say that you and your family have your nice, quiet, single family home on an idyllic half acre lot. Well, if that's the case, should it be allowed that Bitcoin mining facility with its loud cooling fans is built right next to you I'll ask our guest expert about that, and what about say less offensive transgressions, like a condo board that says that you can't rent your unit out. How much zoning is too much or too little? I mean, is someone just being overly sensitive if a duplex is built next to their single family home and they complain about that? So we'll get into all of that. And it really comes down to limiting this McMansionization risk type of nimbyism, not in my backyardism. That's what it is. Again, you can watch the three free videos on how you can substantially and actionably profit from inflation, not hedge, but profit from inflation. It's the inflation triple crown. Be sure to check out those three videos at getricheducation.com/itc. I learned about this week's guest through reason.com we met in person at last month's Freedom Fest in Las Vegas. He is the research director for California Yimby, yes. Yimby, not NIMBY, that is yes in my backyard. And he's a professional city planner. He's the author of the book Arbitrary Lines, how zoning broke the American city and how to fix it. Welcome to GRE. Nolan Gray,   Nolan Gray  12:24 thanks so much, Keith. It's a pleasure to be with you, Nolan,   Keith Weinhold  12:26 you wrote one article for reason.com with such an interesting title, five words, Abolish Zoning-All of it, you're pretty emphatic there at what you'd like to have happen before we discuss that, why don't you tell us in your words what zoning is?   Nolan Gray  12:44 So for the past 100 years, America's cities have been running a grand experiment and how they're governed. Essentially, what we've done, beginning in the 1920s is we said for every single parcel in the city, we're going to assign an allowed use. So most people, if you've played Sim City, you know this might be residential, commercial, industrial, but it goes into so much more detail than that. Different types of residential might be allowed in different parts of the city, commercial, etc, and the vast majority of most American cities, the only form of residential that's allowed is a detached, single family home, right? So that's one half of it, the second half of what zoning is doing, it's placing arbitrary density limits. So the amount of actual housing or amount of floor area that you can build on any particular lot. And it's important to distinguish this from other forms of land use regulation, because in many cases, these rules aren't actually based on any health or safety concerns, but instead a sort of social project of engineering what a correct city should look like. And as I argue in the book and we can discuss over the course of this conversation, is I argue that these rules have actually had incredible harms for our cities and are at the root of our current housing affordability crisis.   Keith Weinhold  13:45 I think zoning initially, it began in New York City about 100 years ago.   Nolan Gray  13:50 Yeah, so New York City adopted one of the first modern zoning ordinances in 1916 a handful of other cities did so as well. So I'm coming to you from California, Berkeley, California also adopted zoning in this year. And essentially, what happened after New York City adopted it was the federal government put together what's called the standard zoning Enabling Act. They mailed that out to every single state in the country and started putting a lot of pressure on states to adopt zoning and allow local governments to adopt zoning. And then, with the rise of the Federal financial system, as part of the New Deal, housing programs. In many cases, local governments were required or strongly, strongly incentivized to adopt the zoning codes to be eligible for certain federal benefits.   Keith Weinhold  14:29 You know, maybe philosophically, one might think, Nolan, well, America stands for freedom, and I should get to do what I want with my plot of land. But if everyone can do whatever they want with their plot of land. I mean, does that mean that my neighbor then could start a sloppy hog farm, or the neighbor on the other side of me could start a battery factory with smoke stacks? So do those sort of things help make the case for zoning?   Nolan Gray  14:57  Yeah, that's a great question, you know. So before the rise of zoning. And we actually had a lot of rules for these classic nuisances, these classic externalities, things like smoke, smells, noise, or even just lots and lots of traffic generation. We had rules to say, Hey, if you want to operate certain types of uses, you need to be in a certain designated area where we're going to tolerate a much higher level of externalities. Zoning does that, but it also does so much more. And it's those other aspects that I think are ill conceived. So for example, of course, we don't want a slaughterhouse next to a single family home, but zoning might also say, Oh, by the way, you're not allowed to have a duplex next to a single family home. You're not allowed to start a home based business. You're not allowed to operate certain commercial uses out of certain strip malls in certain parts of the city. You're not allowed to build anything unless you have a certain amount of number of off street number of off street parking spaces, which can make adaptive reuse of historic properties very difficult. So I think absolutely there's a core of land use regulation that makes sense, that's focused on neighbors, not imposing costs on each other, but our current system goes so much further than that, in many ways, imposes new and unconceived costs, including increasing housing prices, limiting housing options in many of our neighborhoods, making it harder to start a business or to have neighborhoods serving retail in many of our neighborhoods.   Keith Weinhold  16:09 So perhaps zoning has just simply gone too far, and you touched on it earlier. It seems to me that about three quarters of the area of most cities have zoning restricted only to single family home building, for example, and they ban apartments completely. So maybe, as we try to find the right balance of how much zoning is right, tell us more about really the thesis of your book and why we should ban zoning completely.   Nolan Gray  16:38 Of course, we need certain regulations for externalities and nuisances, and to certain extent that can be resolved through litigation, but ideally you look for it and you say, okay, look, there are certain areas where we're going to tolerate certain nuisances and other places where we will not. But beyond that, I think so much of what our land use regulations do is actually causing harm. It's preventing property owners from using their property in ways that are not in any meaningful sense, harmful to their neighbors. It's created this context where now if you want to build just about anything in the typical American city, you have to go through multiple public hearings, you have to do an environmental report in some states, you have to get the permission of local elected officials, you have to undertake all these actions that heavily politicize every new development. And so what we get is so many of our neighborhoods and so many of our cities are locked in amber. And this is partly why, over the last few years, where we've seen a huge amount of demand flow into housing, we've simply had these extreme shortages because markets could not respond with the supply that many of our communities needed. So for example, a starter home in many US cities today might be a townhouse, it might be a two bedroom condo, it might be a single family home on a 2500 square foot lot, but those are precisely the forms of housing that in many cases, our zoning codes make illegal to build. So we're essentially saying if you can't afford at least a certain level of housing, you're not allowed to live in many parts of the community, if in the community altogether, or the same with businesses, if you want to start a small business that might not necessarily have any impact on your neighbors, you might require a special permit. You might require a hearing. You might require to attend a hearing where your competitors are going to show up and oppose your project, purely on a cynical basis. So what it's done is it's created this incredibly disruptive system that's prevented our cities from being entrepreneurial and adaptive, and I think this is the root of a lot of the problems that we're facing today.   Keith Weinhold  18:17 Oh, you really surface some good points there Nolan, when I think of over zoning, and we talk about how a lot of times you can't build anything more than a single family home, that certainly creates a lot of problems. Gentrification is sort of a bad word, kind of sprucing up community so much, raising the value so much, that one problem is that familial bonds decay when children that grew up in, say, Southern California, can no longer afford to live there, so they have to move to lower cost Las Vegas, a four to five hour drive away. Excessive gentrification. You touch that, it also harms mobility. If you want to move from Atlanta to Boston for a tech job but you can't find housing, you're not going to move there, so therefore, talent doesn't get matched up with opportunity.   Nolan Gray  19:07 That's exactly right. I mean, this is a at the national scale. This is an important piece of the puzzle, which is we've made it hardest to actually move to some of our most productive places. So as you mentioned, places like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston, New York City, for all their problems, these are incredibly productive places where folks can move to and get high paying jobs and other good educational opportunities, but in many cases, these are the most expensive cities in our country, and it's in no small part because of the many rules and regulations that make it so hard to build housing in those contexts. So you're exactly right. Folks actually turn down higher paying jobs or better opportunities and move to places simply because the housing is more affordable, and you pick up on a really important piece of this, which is in many cases, this is breaking apart families. So a lot of folks who are born and raised in a place like California, their parents might have been able to buy their home in the 70s or 80s or 90s, but they can't afford a home. They have no long term path to actually staying in the community. And so what you're actually seeing is neighborhoods and communities being ripped apart. If the situation in places like California has actually got to be so bad that many of the people who are in a certain sense, beneficiaries of the status quo, maybe they own their home and they're seeing the value go up and up and up. They're also saying, Oh, my children can't afford to live near me. I don't ever get to see my grandkids. The person who serves me at the hospital or at the supermarket can't afford to live here, and we're having trouble keeping folks on. The crisis got to be so bad in certain places like California that we're starting to see tremors of reform. But one of the things I like to say is, if you want to fall into a California style housing crisis, most parts of the country don't need to do anything the rules you have on the books have you moving in that trajectory, right? But if you want to remain a place where we can build more housing, where folks can buy their own home or buy small apartment buildings and start to build wealth, you have to allow for more supply to come online.   Keith Weinhold  20:42 Sure, zoning so that you can't build anything other than single family homes compounds the affordability crisis. There really just isn't any such thing as a 250k starter home anymore, anywhere.  You represent California, yimby and you live there in the state where people think of ground zero for excessive regulation and taxation and zoning too. I do read more about some zoning being relaxed in California, allowing for the building of an adu on a property, for example, to help build the density. But before you talk about some of the cracks that are actually starting to help break this down. Can you give any bad examples that are especially problematic there in your home state, Nolan?   Nolan Gray  21:27 For the past 50 or 60 years, California, has been stuck under a NIMBY paradigm, not in my backyard, right? Every single new project is politically contentious, has to undertake an environmental report, has to undergo multiple public reviews, it takes years and years to get a permit, and that's if the housing is legal to build at all. As you know, in so many parts of California, there's very little to no new construction happening, and that's because of the rules on the books that make it so hard to build. To the extent that we allow new housing to be built, we have a whole bunch of mandates that force the housing to be a lot more expensive, and even if all that pencils again, it can take two years to get fully entitled in a permit. And so of course, the only housing that actually ends up getting built is quite expensive. And some folks say, Well, if we allow new housing to be built in California, it's all expensive. Well, yes, if you only allow a trickle of new housing in a very expensive context, of course the new housing is going to be expensive. But if you look to places like Texas and Florida, for example, that build lots and lots of new housing and don't have all of these costly mandates, they actually can build a lot of new housing, and actually can keep prices relatively under control and create that new supply of what we call missing middle, low rise housing. So as you mentioned, the tide, I think, is turning in California. The silver lining of things getting so bad is that the culture is shifting. And what we've seen is the emergence of this new yimby movement, or yes, in my backyard. And these are folks are saying, hey, not only is not building more, not this horrible threat to my community, but it's actually this enriching opportunity. It's good to have a growing, healthy, affordable community where folks are building, folks are able to move to high opportunity jobs, and folks are able to have choice in the neighborhood they live in.   Keith Weinhold  22:55 We're talking about zoning and how that's made the affordable housing crisis worse in the United States with California, yimbys, Nolan, gray Nolan. Tell us more about just the exact sorts of codes that are problematic. We touched on apartment building bans, but I think we're also looking at things like off street parking requirements. You need to have so many off street parking spaces before you can build. Otherwise you can't build. You need to have a minimum lot size of a half acre or a quarter acre in order to build here. So can you talk more specifically about just some of those exact problems on the tactical level that are compounding here?   Nolan Gray  23:34 Yeah, that's exactly right. So where are the housings illegal to build altogether. In many cases, there are a whole bunch of rules that increase the price of that housing. So in urban context, for example, where you might want to be building apartments, many cases, you might have parking requirements that say, Well, you have to have two parking spaces per unit or one parking space per bedroom. In many cases, that's what consumers might demand, and you would have to build that to lease out those units or to sell those condos. But if you're building in a context where you might be near a transit line, or you might be near a university campus, or you might be near a major job center, many of your renters might say, hey, actually, I would prefer to have a more affordable rental or a more affordable condo, because we know that there's no such thing as free parking. You know, if it requires a structure or excavation work, parking can easily add $50,000 to the price of a new unit, and so some consumers might want to pay for that, eat that cost, have a parking space. But many consumers, when we relax these rules and say, Hey, developers, you have the incentives and the local knowledge needed to decide how much parking to build. In many cases, we find that they share parking with other uses, so commercial during the day and residential at night, or they allow renters to opt into parking and to pay for parking, but what you get for many households is a cheaper unit. Now another rule that you mentioned, which is very important, is minimum loss size rules. This is certainly a lot more relevant. More relevant and suburban and rural context. But what we say is, if you want to be able to have a single family home, you have to be able to afford at least a certain amount of land. Now, when if you have a context where you don't have water and sewer installed, and you're operating on septic and well water, you do need larger lots as a matter of public health, but in most suburban context, these rules essentially serve no function except to increase the price of housing and the ability to determine what type of housing can be built where is the ability to determine who gets to live where. So if we say, well, you're not allowed to live in this neighborhood unless you can afford a 10,000 square foot lot or a 20,000 square foot lot, what we're essentially doing in 2024 where land is a major factor in affordability, is we're saying that a whole bunch of middle working class households are not allowed to live in these neighborhoods, or they're not allowed to ever become homeowners and start building wealth in the same way that past generations did. And you look at places like Houston, for example, where they don't have zoning, but they have a lot of zoning-like rules. In 1998 they reduced their minimum lot sizes from 5000 square feet citywide to 1400 square feet citywide. And what this did was this kicked off a townhouse and small lot single family home building boom that has helped to keep cities like Houston affordable a whole new supply of starter homes that again, offered that first step on the ladder of home ownership and wealth building.   Keith Weinhold  25:52 Over the decades, home prices have outpaced incomes. There are a few reasons for that. One of them is inflation, with wages not keeping up with the real rate of inflation, but the other are barriers to development. We're talking more about that with Nolan gray. When we come back, you're listening to Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at Ridge Lending Group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. 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Earn 8% hundreds of others are text FAMILY to 66866, learn more about Freedom Family Investments, Liquidity Fund, on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, FAMILY to 66866.     Robert Kiyosaki  27:50 This is our Rich Dad, Poor Dad author, Robert Kiyosaki. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold, and the reason I respect Keith, he's a very strong, smart, bright young man.   Keith Weinhold  28:14 Welcome back to Get Rich Education . We're talking with California, yimbys Nolan gray about zoning and how these barriers to development are compounding the affordable housing crisis, and there sure are a number of barriers to multi family production. I really think that's what wild it comes down to. You touched on it earlier, and it's something that I spoke about with our audience a month or two ago. Nolan, and that is, mmm, multi families, missing middle these two to four unit properties, duplexes to fourplexes, where they're only constructing about 40% as many of those here in recent years than they did 20 to 30 years ago. The way I think of it is when you lift barriers to multifamily production, of course, you incentivize builders. If a developer buys an acre of land for, say, $90,000 and they had planned to build one unit on that All right? Well, there's one set of inputs in income that a developer can look at. But instead, if you allow them to go from building one unit on this plot of land to two units on it, it increases their profit potential, and it incentivizes developers from that side as well.   Nolan Gray  29:23 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so there's been some great work by some friends over at the American Enterprise Institute. What they've done is they've created a nationwide map of mcmassionization risk. So when we have these conversations, we say, hey, let's allow for a range of housing typologies in more neighborhoods, duplexes, triplexes, small, low rise, multi family buildings, townhouses, the types of things that were commonly built in a range of neighborhoods before the rise of zoning. Every city in America has a neighborhood like this. That's a mixture of housing typologies. It would be illegal to build that today, but in many cases, we subject it to preservation requirements because we value it so much that we want to keep it. In any case, what happens when you don't allow that type of gradual incremental infill that keeps our communities affordable. What you get instead is the existing single family homes are converted into much larger, much more expensive single family homes. Now, again, there's nothing wrong with that. Many people might want to buy a smaller 19 fizzies bungalow and turn it into a much larger, 2500 square foot single family home, and God bless them if they want to do it. But what we have is rules on the books that say housing can only get more expensive, it can never get more affordable, or you can never unlock the wealth that's tied up in your land by building an adu or by building a duplex, or by creating more housing options for a range of households. And so that's really, really key. You know, the choice is not between, do we want our communities to change or not? The question is, do we want our communities to remain affordable and maybe change and have some more buildings built and more growth and more development. Or do we want our communities to change in the sense of they become more expensive? Folks retire and they move away, the neighborhood gradually becomes significantly more exclusionary, and young folks who moved grew up in the community can no longer afford to stay. That's the option facing many of our communities. And I think the yimby response to this is more housing construction is good and it's healthy and it's part of a thriving community.   Keith Weinhold  31:02 Yeah, Nolan, when we come at this from the familial perspective, like I brought up earlier, it seems like the more zoning there is, the more it benefits seniors and incumbents, the more it benefits the silent generation, the baby boomer generation, and maybe Gen Xers, and it disadvantages millennials and Gen Zers that really don't have their place yet.   Nolan Gray  31:24 Yeah, you know, it's tough. I would say it even hurts seniors, right? I mean, if they want their young adult children to be able to live near them, or, many cases, seniors like the option to be able to build an accessory dwelling unit in their backyard and maybe rent that out to friends or family, or maybe even you move into the adu and allow young adult children to move into the primary residence, or even just rent it out and have an additional source of income to supplement fixed incomes. There's reasons why folks, I think, at all different stages of their life, benefit for more flexibility in the rules that govern what can be built.   Keith Weinhold  31:52  Psychologically,  how do we turn one's mindset from a NIMBY mindset to a yimby mindset? I mean, if someone's got their single family ranch home that they want to live in in their senior years, and they want to see its value appreciate, so they don't want duplexes and fourplexes built next to them, rather than them saying no to turn them into saying yes. I mean, how do you get those people to understand that? Well, like this is the way for the next generation, for you to be able to live near your children and grandchildren?   Nolan Gray  32:21 Yeah, that's a great point. You know, I think when you go to these public hearings around projects, you hear relentlessly about the cost of new development, right? Folks speculating about traffic and runoff and other factors parking. We get that perspective. We get bombarded with that perspective. But what we don't get is the alternative perspective of the benefits of a community, remaining relatively affordable, remaining a place where teachers and nurses and firefighters can still afford to be able to own a home and live places, allowing for the kids who grew up in a neighborhood or a city to remain there. And in fact, even just the selfish appeal to the homeowner, there's not actually any evidence that new development happening around you necessarily reduces the price of your single family home, and in some cases, it could actually signal to the market, hey, there's actually development potential on this so when you do decide to maybe sell and move on, your land is potentially going to be more valuable because it has more development potential than it might under a strict exclusionary zoning scenario. So you know, of course, you try to make the altruistic case to people. Hey, think about future generations. Think about folks who maybe want to move to this community or stay in this community, but aren't going to be able to if we don't build housing. But even so, I think there's selfish reasons. If you want to have somebody who's going to check you out at the supermarket or serve you at a restaurant or be a home care nurse, eventually you got to have housing for folks like that. In many cases, new development happening around you is going to increase your land value. Now I would just try the rage of appeals and work people through it. And in many cases, you know, I think people will understand, yeah, okay, I understand we got to have some growth. They might have a perspective on what it should look like, and that's okay. But as long as we can get some consensus that we got to have some growth to accommodate demand the form it takes, we can have a healthy discussion over.   Keith Weinhold  33:57 Yeah, real community is the integration of all different types of people, and not school teachers living an hour away where they need to make a two hour round trip drive every day. Well, Nolan, as we're winding down here, can you give us any more successful zoning reform examples that maybe other communities can look to you touched on the success stories in Houston a bit. Are there some other ones?   Nolan Gray  34:21 Absolutely. Yeah. So one of the most successful things we've done in California has been statewide legalization of accessory dwelling units. Yeah, that's been key. That started in 2017 and that took a lot of legislation to get us to a place where we are today, but that's resulted in something like 80,00 ADU's permitted, since 2017. That's powerful stuff, right? That's 80,000 households that might have a home, or might be able to rent out a unit to young adult child or an aging parent. Really, really powerful. So I would suggest that folks look into that. That's the lowest of the low hanging fruit. Empower homeowners to add additional units to their properties, and by the way, we also allow you use to be added to multifamily properties, and we're seeing a lot of that happen as well. At other contexts, many cities, dozens of cities across the country. Have removed their minimum parking requirements, acknowledging that, hey, this is a huge cost that we're imposing on projects, developers who are close to consumers, who have, they have the incentives and local knowledge to get this question right. Let them decide. So that's been, I think, a big success. You know, certain cities like Austin and Minneapolis, for example, they've actually sort of kept their markets back under control amid all the chaos of the pandemic real estate market fluctuations by allowing for a lot more mid rise multi family on their commercial corridors and in Job rich areas and in places near transit, that's where we have a huge shortage, is these studios and one bedrooms. So young professionals who, if they can't find that unit, they're going to go bid up the price of a two or three bedroom unit, they're going to roommate up and be living in potentially overcrowded conditions. So Austin, Minneapolis, we, relative to peers, they built a lot of housing and have seen prices stabilize as a result. So there's a lot of different success stories, you know, I would say, if you're at all interested in this, talk to your neighbors about this issue. See what sorts of solutions might make sense for your community. You know, in a suburban or a rural community, ADUs or minimum loss size reform might make sense. And an urban community, removing your parking mandates, allowing for more multifamily, allowing for missing middle, make more sense.   Keith Weinhold  36:06 There sure are some encouraging signs. There was there any last thing that a person should know, especially a real estate investor type audience that's interested in buying a property and renting it out to a tenant for the production of income? Is there anything that our group really ought to know about zoning and the direction that things are moving, what to look for and what to be careful of?   Nolan Gray  36:28 Well, as your audience probably knows, you know that first essential step for your mom and pop local real estate investor is often a duplex, a triplex, a four Plex, historically, that was an absolutely essential source of middle class wealth building. Yeah, right. And you can see these in so many historic neighborhoods. And to the extent that we've made those exact typologies so incredibly hard to build, we've cut off this very valuable source of democratic, decentralized wealth building that we need to actually encourage as real estate investors and professionals, in many cases, you're an authority figure with your local policymakers and your local planners, and you can say to them, Hey, here's my perspective on what's happening in the market. You know, we have a shortage of a certain type of small scale multifamily or making this case. You know, I talked to a lot of elected officials, and when I say starter home, I think they still think of the bungalow on the 5000 square foot lot with the two car garage. But a starter home in 2024 might be a townhouse, two bedroom condo, a small lot, single family home. These are the types of stories that real estate investors and professionals are trusted advocates on, and you can make that case and explain to local policymakers. Hey, here's the change that we need or explaining. Hey, I wanted to add an additional unit to a property that I own, or I wanted to redevelop a property I own to add a lot more housing. And these were the barriers that I faced that's incredibly valuable information for your local policymakers and planners. And I would say, you know, look around many US, cities and states now have very active yimby or, Yes, in my backyard groups. Go connect up with them. You could be a valuable, trusted expert for them, somebody that they can learn more about the situation with real estate markets, and they can be more effective advocates for policy that I think a lot of us would like to see.   Keith Weinhold  37:58 And when it comes to changing NIMBY people to yimby people, and we look at esthetics and adu in the back, that really doesn't change aesthetics on the street front. And I've seen very smart, careful designs of duplexes, triplexes and fourplexes that really look just like single family homes from the Street View level. So there really are some ways around this. You've given us some really good ideas today. Nolan, hey, well, someone wants to learn more about you and your work and zoning. What's the best way for them to do that?   Nolan Gray  38:30 Well, I'm on the platform formerly known as Twitter. I'm @mnolangray, M, N, O, L, E, N, G, R, A, y, so feel free to find me there and reach out. And I have a book Arbitrary Lines, how zoning broke the American city and how to fix it. Check that out. If you're at all interested in this, always reach out. Love to hear from folks. Thanks so much for having me, by the way.   Keith Weinhold  38:50 All right, well, I hope our audience didn't zone out. It's been great. Chat with you. Nolan, thanks so much for coming on to the show. Yeah, a thought provoking discussion with California yimbys Nolan Gray there it's essentially illegal to build affordable housing in a lot of areas with the way that these zoning laws are written, allowing for more dense building that can limit this ugly urban sprawl, and this makes me think about an Instagram account that I follow. It's called how cars ruined our cities, or some names similar to that. It shows, for example, a picture of how a highway interchange in sprawling Houston has an area so large that you could fit an entire Italian town inside of it. And these sprawl problems compound when a lot size must be, say, at least a quarter acre or a half acre. The tide is turning toward allowing more dense building in some places like we touched on, but it's too bad that it took a. Visible housing crisis to make this happen. I mean, visible like more homeless people out on the street. It took that almost for municipalities to start doing something about all of this. Our guest has quite a following on X. Again, you can find his handle there @mnolangray on X and the image on his account cover it shows someone holding up a sign that reads, zoning kills dreams. Hmm, big thanks to the terrific Nolan gray today until next Monday, when I'll be back here to help you actionably build your Real Estate Wealth. I'm Keith Weinhold. Don't quit your Daydream.   Unknown Speaker  40:44 Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for  profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC, exclusively.   Keith Weinhold  41:12 The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building,  GetRichEducation.com.  

 Welcome to the Artful Teaching podcast. It's been a while. This is Heather Francis and I am excited to co-host and produce a special episode with my friend Stephanie West. She and I are going to be discussing a framework that she has developed as part of her doctoral studies. It's called the Native Voices framework. She's going to totally describe it in just a moment, but to get listeners up to speed on the topic, Native voices include the tribe.. You have a sovereign nation. They have someone that they've appointed to speak for the tribe. It's someone sanctioned by the tribe to be their voice. That is an official, you know, type of voice. But then you can have a neighbor who lives next door, who has native heritage, and they have native experiences and perspective to share as well. And then you might go into your students' school or your child's school and see a native culture, like artists presenting something, and they are another type of native voice to share. And so it's important, I think, in education, when we're looking to amplify Native Voices, that we understand these different voices and the different values that they evoke and share with us. Stephanie West  2:32  so you talked about the Native Voices framework as being part of my doctoral work. And yes, it is, but this really started before then. So we've shared content about this for years, and so I can't say that this is my work, but more I have been given the privilege of expanding on it as we've continued to learn more about these different perspectives that are available to us, and also some missing pieces, which I'll talk about in a second that help us to clarify how teachers might frame those perspectives and understand how those different various voices, Native Voices, can impact their teaching of native topics.Heather  3:13  Right? This framework is coming out of content that our program coordinator and program manager have been presenting in workshops for several, several years. And it's really great, Stephanie, that you're formalizing it. We love to see this kind of deep research and thinking. So the first question is, what is the framework? Stephanie,Speaker 1  3:33  So a framework is something that helps us to organize the information that's available to us and make it more applicable to our own work, right? And so the Native Voices framework, the image that we've created, and you can see it on our website, is in the form of a circle, and we felt it was or I felt it was really important to communicate both visually as well as through words, because that is a more of an indigenous pedagogy is to use also shapes and things to communicate information. And so we have this circle that has a ring of individuals around it. They have their hands connected, right? And there's also some coloring to that circle. There's a deep red color as well as a black color, and they kind of blend into each other. And the very base or bottom, it's also multiple levels of circles and concentric circles, yeah, that's a great way to describe it. So it's concentric circles and. And the image that we have is two dimensional. I would love to have it recreated in a three dimensional shape. And if we were to see it three dimensionally, I would see it as more like a cone, right where it's wider at the base, and then it comes up to a point at the top. And that point at the top is like the focus, you know, but the base is really visually you see, uh, it communicates the different values that influence both our teaching of native topics as well as the different values that might influence different perspective native perspectives. So and we put that on a continuum of both native values as well as Western values. And most educational systems Western are Western? Yeah, yeah, that's,Heather  5:44  that's the world we exist in for the most part. When we say there's native perspectives and Western perspectives, we're not saying that it's this against that, not at all. It's we. We know our own culture that's one of our guiding principles. And we do operate in a very western perspective, and it has certain values underlying it, just like native perspectives have certain values underlying them, and we're just including both of them in this framework. AndSpeaker 1  6:10  I think that that's one piece of this framework that's helpful when it comes to the values, is that, yes, we put it on a continuum, because they're not completely contradictory, but they are can be very different, and also it's helpful when you have a framework, I think often we don't necessarily, as teachers, think about, how does this value influence the way that I teach? Right? Often we just have values, and they're just part of our lives. But by having this, it encourages teachers to be able to consider, oh, this is, might be the reason why I'm choosing to do it this way. And so by making it more evident, we hope that teachers can be more thoughtful in the ways that they include those different values in their teaching, and especially with native teaching, because for it to be accurate and authentic, you really have to make sure that it aligns well with native values. Totally so native values, I looked at a whole bunch of different content and also reflected back on our experiences from what we have learned as we have worked with native groups, and I was somewhat hesitant to put these different values in as being like native values, because we know that each native nation and tribe, they're all very distinct, but these were some values that we found that did cross over multiple different native groups. And so the values that that we found were community. Community is so essential with Native communities, then there is also relationship. Relationship is essential to the ways that we learn. So when you think about Native communities, they learn usually through multiple different individuals coming together, but also through different ages, and it's often a side by side learning, and it's more as a community, native individuals, they come together for, not just for the benefit of what, what am I going to learn as an individual, but how does what I'm learning then benefit the community, right? Which is related to both community and relationship. Another value is responsibility, that when we receive knowledge, we have to recognize that there's a responsibility that comes with that knowledge, and that's a very indigenous perspective. Another value is reciprocity, that as we receive something, we don't just receive it and oh, it's mine. I can do whatever I want now, but more we realize that with that responsibility comes also a need to use it in a way that will benefit the community. So this sense of reciprocity, paying it forward to Yes, and there's those ideas of looking back to your ancestors looking forward. It's this deep connection. Another element of this is this idea of holism, that you're not just educating a mind, but you are educating a whole entire person. And there's this attention to what is this person becoming as a result of the knowledge that they're receiving. So those are some of the native values that came out, the western values that that were important like that. I think there's a lot of different western values that we could have highlighted, but we highlighted these ones because I think these are ones that are very evident in our in our educational systems, and they strongly influence the choices that we make in there. And sometimes these influences have been here and present for years and years and years. I think many teachers are influenced by the education they received forward, right?Heather  9:49  What was modeled for us is often what we adopt,Speaker 1  9:52  yes. So some of the Western values that came out, and these are not bad values, many of these are very good values. So. Scientific skepticism. That's a great thing, right? It's very essential in research, right? But this idea that we don't just accept something, but we are skeptical about it, another one is this idea of singularity. When we're in school, there's this need to get the right answer, right? That there's one right answer, and that can be very different than an indigenous perspective that may hold multiple answers to be true. There's also individualism, and we have, just as a society and also as a schooling system, our educational system, we emphasize definitely the individual, often over the community itself, and you will see this in our standardized testing and in all the different ways thatHeather  10:49  we assess graduation, honors, awards, scholarships, yeah, yeah.Speaker 1  10:53  And when we assess students, we don't usually assess them as a group and take that as a whole. No, it's individual, another piece of this is also compartmentalization, in that when we bring knowledge into the classroom, we often will teach it in its own different subjects. And I think a lot of teachers try to bring things together, because we're coming to understand the value of making the connections between different subjects. But in general, most of our subjects are taught by subject. And you learn math, you learn science, you know, totally siloed. Yeah, very siloed. So those are the different values that came out as I was looking at these. And then the other piece, I kind of described that circle of the people who are connected together. And for me, this was really important to include this in here, because I think we we feel this when it comes to cultural things, especially a culture that may be different from us, and we wonder, do I have a place here? You know what? What is my role here? And I just felt it was really important to keep that connection in there, and also to see, not just teachers, that teachers could see themselves there, but also to see the importance of all the different interconnected people that play a role in that. So,Heather  12:13  integrated subjects, integrated people. Yeah, I'm getting an idea. SoSpeaker 1  12:18  that's kind of like the base layer. And then the next level is really those native perspectives, those Native Voices. And we had already shared a lot of content about this over time, and we had three different categories that we used. I don't know if you remember when we added the fourth category, oh yeah,Heather  12:35  I totally do.Unknown Speaker  12:36  Do you want to describe that with Oh yeah, yeah.Heather  12:39  So we were publishing our online course, which has a recorded presentation that Brenda and Emily did for teachers in our endorsement program. And it covers the official voices, the people who get to speak for the tribe because the tribe said so, and then the culture bearers or knowledge keepers, who maybe they're not a part of the tribal council or the tribal government, but they hold a lot of the tribal history and stories and culture, and they share it through presentations or leading rituals. Maybe it's spiritual, maybe it's educational, maybe it's an arts or handwork kind of thing, but the culture is preserved in in their knowing, and then there's authentic voices, which are the children and students in your classroom who have Native Heritage, or their parents or a neighbor or an organization that's also amplifying Native Voices, and then so we were talking about it, and we had to consider like, Well, what about us? You know, these artists and educators who are seeking to amplify Native Voices. We're working with official voices, we're working with authentic voices. We're working with culture bearers, but now we have some cultural knowledge, and we've learned from them, and we want to honor them. But who are we? What are we? And we decided we were informedSpeaker 1  13:57  voices, and I loved as we discussed this, like, what does an informed voice mean? Like, how do you define what is an informed voice? As we talked about it, that this group could also include Native individuals as well as non native individuals, right? Because, for example, we often share this example that Brenda Beall, right, she is an authentic voice to her own personal experiences, but at the same time, because her husband went to a boarding school, like an indigenous boarding school, she is also an informed voice because of her relationship with Him, to be able to share what she has learned in that way, right? SheHeather  14:34  holds his stories with him, even though she didn't experience them for herself.Speaker 1  14:39  And I love the way that you said that she holds his stories within her. Yeah, that's such a great way to put it. So when you look at the framework and those different perspectives that are there in that center, those different voices, you'll see that they are also shaded in these different colors. And. And what we tried to communicate there was that even all of these different perspectives can be influenced by these different values in different ways. So for example, probably the most embedded within native values are going to be your knowledge keepers and culture bearers, because they have accepted a responsibility to carry on native knowledge and to share it right now, the official voices, you'd think, Oh, well, these must also be very indigenous. But even just the structure of native governments, they've adoptedHeather  15:31  some Western perspectives in terms of government and politics and governing, andSpeaker 1  15:39  so they've, because of their need to interact with Western governments that are a very western style, they have had to, sometimes been forced to adopt that kind of structure themselves,Heather  15:51  which we have a new animated film released on YouTube that tells that whole history. So go check that out andSpeaker 1  15:58  talks about Native sovereignty throughout the history of the United States, yeah, so definitely check that out. So because of that impact or effect of Western government, they can have some of that Western perspective as well. Authentic voices. There may be individuals that can share about their own experiences, but these are individuals who maybe grew up learning about their culture, but maybe they didn't, you know, so it's just good to recognize the impact that also western values may have on their perspectives. And then, of course, there's informed voices, and because most informed voices, many are going to be from non native individuals, we have to recognize that each of us who are not native because we don't have that background. We bring with us biases from our own lives and and bias is not a bad word, right? Just like these different values are not bad, but we bring different perspectives with us, and so it's important to recognize that, and then at the very center of the framework is really, this is the child, right? This is the focus here, and we recognize it, and we hope that by amplifying Native Voices in the classroom, that this is going to benefit not just native children, but really all children, that it can provide a more balanced and enriching understanding for all students.Heather  17:20  Great. Thank you, Stephanie, so it's, it's a lot of content in one little image, yes, but it's, it's really helpful. I hope listeners, you can go to our show notes and to our website and check out the image so you can study it for yourself. But I think Stephanie, the next thing we need to do is talk about application of this framework. How can teachers use it? Yeah,Speaker 1  17:47  okay, and that's definitely the most important question here, right? So when teachers are teaching native topics, and before I get into that, because I say that, often teach native topics and and sometimes I have to, like question, okay, what do I mean by that? Because really, all topics are native topics, but maybe they might be taught in a different way from if it's from a more indigenous perspective, right? Or an indigenous way of knowing is another term. So when I say in native topics, I really mean everything, right? But when teachers are trying to teach from a more indigenous way, things that they should do are first to grow your understanding of native cultural values and Western cultural values like I think that that's one piece of this framework that's important is to reflect on that, to think about, how am I being influenced by different values when I teach these different subjects? One piece of information that I came across is that most of the addition of cultural topics or cultural information into the classroom happens at a very superficial level. Right?Heather  18:52  Fun figures, food, right? Geography? Which geography is important? But if you're just identifying the boundaries on a map, and it may not be enough to understand the environmental implications to a culture, andSpeaker 1  19:09  I think you said it at the very beginning, the goal here is to learn from Native Americans, not just about Native Americans. And so by first reflecting and looking at those, first of all, understanding what these different values are, then actively reflecting on those values and doing that in a continuous way, and considering how different values influence the decisions that we're making about how we're sharing native knowledge and what we're sharing. I actually hadHeather  19:40  this moment when you were talking about the values in my imagination, in my mind, I saw myself as a teacher lining my students up at the door to leave the classroom, to, like, go to the lunchroom or to another classroom or something. And just like my need for the order of the like, single filed line, which has definitely has its place, because you know teachers. You know. This, when you take a line of students through the hall, and there are other classes, the chaos that can ensue from a non singular line. There's great potential. However, if I was looking at, I think that's driven from my Western perspective of like order and compartmentalization, but if I was looking for, like, a transition to the computer lab that was more focused on community, I might just say, All right, you have three minutes to quietly make it to the computer lab and let them walk with someone like side by side, and maybe share it as a social connection time, rather than a let's make sure nobody gets hurt on the way. And there'd be a time and a place like I would definitely take them single file if there were other classes, but if it was during a class where there weren't people in the hallways, maybe that would be something I could choose.Speaker 1  20:49  Or when you were describing this, I was thinking about how most of our classrooms are set up with, Okay, here's your desk, or maybe it's a row of other rows. Yeah, right. So we have rows, but a much more indigenous way of coming together and gathering to learn is actually in a circle, and it's because of the balance that's present there, right where you can all see each other, and we're all equal in that circle, and we all have a part. And that's another piece of information that I've found interesting as I'm learning more about indigenous pedagogy, is this idea that, you know that reciprocity and responsibility is that even though there may be people who are the teachers, they also learn from the students, the learners, the teacher, the teachers, the learner, that reciprocity, right? So, yeah, so I think there's different ways that this can come out in our classrooms. And I love the example you share about, about the long lines, yeah,Heather  21:48  choreography. You know, the downside, mind of mine is like, Hmm, how do we use space in schools in a more indigenous way?Speaker 1  21:56  I love it. So we talked about the values, right? And things that reflecting on those values, understanding what those values are, then there's considering ways that we can amplify various native perspectives in our classroom. The vision for the Native American curriculum initiative, our ultimate goal is to amplify native perspectives, because it's by amplifying native perspectives that we increase the accuracy and the authenticity of the teaching of native topics,Heather  22:25  right? And that benefits all children, yes.Speaker 1  22:30  And so that's why we can consider different ways that we can include, you know, a culture bearer or a knowledge keeper or an informed voice or anyway, but considering these different perspectives that are out there and how they might impact the ways that the decisions you might make, one other thing that just came to mind was about the visual description. You'll see that we have those smaller circles at the center, which are the native culture bearers and knowledge keepers as well as well as official voices, and that was intentional, because those smaller circles kind of communicate that these are less available to teachers. We recognize thatHeather  23:10  when I was a teacher, I taught middle school and I ran a dance program and I taught math, and so my social worker at my school told me about this great storyteller who was a friend of hers from the ute Indian tribe of the Uinta and urae reservation out in Roosevelt, and we were in Salt Lake City, and she's like, I would love to ask him to come out and do a presentation for your dancers. And I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. I love to have cultural artists in my classroom and my dance company students, they just eat it up. They love it. Love it. All my students would eat it up, but especially them as more serious students of dance. So he came out, and he brought a stuffed coyote for some coyote stories, and he taught us about the four winds and harmony and native colors and the significance of a hoop in a circle. And then he taught my students the bear dance, and they danced in the bear dance in my classroom, and we got video, and we got photos, and when he took images with us, and it was a lovely workshop. And then it went even further. So he was a culture bearer. I learned, you know, he leads a sweat session on the reservation once a month. So he's a spiritual leader. He is a you filmmaker. So he makes films and he tells stories, obviously a storyteller and instructor educator. So I was, I felt really confident having him in my classroom. But what's interesting is when I started working this job, and we have this Native American curriculum initiative, and there happened to be this debate and tension around the bear dance, particularly, and how official voices of the Ute tribe had told members of our team that the bear dance should not be danced by non natives and it should not be danced in schools like invite a native to come and lead the round dance in your classroom by. Not the bear dance. So I had to stop and be like, Uh oh, did I do something wrong in the past? When I let Larry come and teach like I didn't vet what he was going to teach, I let him come and teach what he wanted to teach, because he was the expert. And so that's I don't feel guilty. I feel like I really honored the culture artists that I brought in, but I also hear those official voices, and definitely wouldn't replicate what I saw or teach it myself, but rather, would do like we have a bear dance lesson plan, I would teach students about the bear dance and why it's important to them that it's not performed by other non natives. It'sSpeaker 1  25:35  important to recognize that culture is not a static thing, that culture is living, it's changing, and it's changing with the people and with the influences that around them, and so that's an important thing to recognize. And I think it's good that you are not feeling guilty about that decision, because it's good for us to invite someone into our classroom, especially if it's a native voice, they are the expert, and so, yeah, even though that's conflicting information, right? That you would think that, okay, well, they've said this and and he did this, what's right? I think honor what happened in that moment, but I think it's good to have the information from the official voice, because that really guides what we do in the choices that we're going to make, right? Like, like you said you would not then go and just like, teach this now, right, right? So, yeah,Heather  26:29  and this story, really, it pulls out the complexity of the framework. And, you know, we began with that idea of values. We have western values. We have native values. And immediately my reaction was like, but they're not in like, contention with each other. They just are, like, they just exist in this way. And I think sometimes we want things to be this or that, and in this scenario, there's complexity. And so when we're asking, like, if we're giving a call to action to teachers around this framework. It's not just like recognize the values, but do the internal work that's needed to hold the complexity that they are all there for us to use and pick and choose and notice and be aware of. It's not Oh man, I really need to shed my Western my Western ways of being like, no, no, no, no, no, no. AndSpeaker 1  27:23  I think that what we're looking for here is just more to bring more balance to our education, because we've had such strong western influences, right? And when I say bring more balance, we're not asking teachers to do this all either, right? Like we're not trying to I think that it's how can we bring in these different values, and especially when we're teaching about indigenous or native ways of knowing specific events, that we try to do that in a way that's more accurate and authentic, and by understanding these different values, I think that helps us to then transform the experiences in ways that make it more enriching and deeper. And it's not just, oh, I'm learning about this, but how are we becoming different as a result of this? Are we learning from Native Americans, or are we learning about them? Yeah.

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Faith and Business. Today's guest, Tina Rains from Masterpiece Women, is a successful businesswoman who has combined her success as an entrepreneurial woman of faith with her business leadership skills and ministry in an Ephesians 2:10 way.   Be encouraged today to share your faith within the business world.   ****** Kimberly Hobbs  0:06   Welcome to empowering lives with purpose. And I'm your host, Kimberly Hobbs. I am the founder of Women world leaders. And I am so happy to introduce to you our guest today, who is Tina rains. And she also runs a ministry called masterpiece women. And today we get to talk about faith in business. Welcome, Tina. Tina Rains  0:30   Thank you, Kimberly, for having me. I'm so excited to be here with you. Kimberly Hobbs  0:35   We are so excited to have you. And ladies, we're hoping today that it is our prayer to strengthen you, encourage you, and empower you to share stories with others about how God has moved within your life. And we're going to hear today from Tina a little bit about how God has empowered her to move forward into ministry but also incorporate business into that. So we're hoping that by her sharing her story, this will encourage you to share your sometime as you just see what Tina is doing within her business. Ephesians 210 says we are God's masterpiece, we are created anew in Christ Jesus to do the very good things that he has planned for us long ago. And as those of you that follow empowering lives with purpose podcast, know that I use that scripture. Often when I open up, and I just am giggling because that is actually Tina and masterpiece women's verse for the ministry. And I love that. So you're gonna hear more about that in just a little bit. And I want to introduce to you Tina, and read a little bit about who Tina is. Tina is an RN. She's the founder of masterpiece women driven to help women know that they are a masterpiece based on Ephesians 210. The verse that I just read. She has a driving passion to help women understand who they are in Christ, build authentic community and give them tools to succeed in business. And in ministry. Tina is married to Monty and together they have seven children. And she's now a meanie to seven grandbabies. And Tina and Monty serve as couple chose for bi annual J H Outback marriage retreats. And I've heard about those retreats and they're supposed to be phenomenal. Tina started her career as an entrepreneur at the age of 25 and started her first healthcare staffing office. And in 1995, she was operating out of her garage. Within a few short years, she had eight offices around the country and was making millions of dollars per year. Yet, she still had a void in her heart. So her done, identity was not completely in Christ. She didn't except when a masterpiece woman she was. And Tina came from a childhood of poverty and abuse. And so now we're going to talk about some of Tina's story which led her into our topic today, which is faith in business. So Tina from a childhood, you came from a childhood of sexual and physical abuse, but you had to get healthy again in many ways, and you were sharing that with me. God took you on a journey to complete surrender and prepares you for the area of ministry He's called you to which is faith in business with masterpiece women. So knowing the old way of living left you feeling solid and spiritually dial into that inside, you rebuilt the brokenness of your life by climbing a mountain ladies, this woman has climbed a mountain in India and not just any mountain. So I'm going to ask her to share about this. But as I read this verse, Hebrews 611, and then 12 promises us, then you will not become spiritually dull and indifferent. Instead, you will follow the example of those who are going to inherit God's promises because of their faith and endurance. And God called you to go climb a mountain, Mount Kilimanjaro and India. How in the world did you get there? Tina Rains  4:36   Oh, my goodness. Yes, it was quite the it was quite the climb, to say the least. But I do. I do correlate it many times to my spiritual climb because as a woman, young woman, I was still very broken. And I put a lot of energy and a lot of my passions into building business because that made me feel good put on quote about myself. And I realized that there was still something missing. And I knew that and I had made some choices because I was still broken in my younger days of relationships that weren't healthy for me things in my life that weren't healthy for me. And I realized, something has to change. And the patterns that I'm making in my personal life, are just not working from a spiritual perspective. And so I went on a journey of really seeking the Lord, I went through a divorce, and I was devastated and went through a very difficult time in my life. And so I just said, Okay, Lord, it's you and me the next couple of years, I'm just gonna dig in deep and I surrendered. I went through some, some programs, including, you know, inner healing and broke some strongholds, just really navigating with the Lord going, what do I need to do to be completely intimate with you and surrender to you? What what are those strongholds that are still holding me back. And I recognize that I still had many that I had to work through, even though I'd gone to, you know, counseling, etc. And I believe in counseling, but I believe that when you really surrender your life to the Lord, and you say, and here I am, us, me, he just transforms your life completely. And so, in that season, I did that. And I went on my first mission trip to India, where he spoke to me very clearly, I was to come back, and I was to do something, but I had no idea what that meant. And so I had transitioned that already sold a large portion of my business, I had a small portion left, I was on all kinds of Board of Directors for many people, you know, many great organizations, but he said, I want to use your gifts and talents for me. And I said, Okay, so I thought, Okay, I'll get on Christian boards, instead of, instead of, you know, business boards and other, you know, Board of Directors, I just get on some Christian boards. He's like, no, no, that's not what I mean. Well, fast forward, I was invited to climb Mount Kilimanjaro, which is the largest freestanding mountain in Africa won the world, but, and so I'm, like, climb me, I've never climbed a day in my life. Like, literally, that was not my passion. And so I said, Yes, after asking him for days to show me for sure. Very similar to this mission trip to India, because I didn't really want to go on the mission trip to India. But I believed he told me to do it. So I did and all came together. And one thing led to another, I'd met this amazing woman there that I loved. And we ended up going as tentmakers to climb Mount Kilimanjaro together. And in that journey, he showed me that I was to come back and lead that movement. And so then I went on to climb Mount Kilimanjaro, a second time base, camp, Everest, the Alps, all these climbs. And what I saw all over the world, as I spoke, though, is so many women were just like me, they were still held back by bondage, and brokenness, and there's so much abuse. And what's beautiful about that, though, Kimberly, is that even though the enemy meant it for our destruction, God then was able to use it, to bring glory to Him to help others. And so I could look back and reflect on all that pain and all that suffering. And know that as I was dealing with these women who to or dealing with these issues, gave me such a compassion for him. It gave me such a passion to help them. And so as we built that ministry wasn't just about climbing on behalf of the women, children, we were being voices for it was also very intentional to provide retreat type training at all of our climbs where they could just get real and raw with the Lord and break some of those strongholds themselves. And so it was both for the women coming, and the women that we were serving, and it was just such a powerful opportunity to watch God redeem what the enemy meant for destruction. So it was a very, I Kimberly Hobbs  9:04   love that. I love that Tina, and you were sharing with me that just the impact that you were having, when you were able to get raw and transparent. Lady sometimes that's difficult for us to do as expose our own our own weaknesses in front of others. But sometimes when we do that, we can allow others inside and let them know that it's okay. You're a safe place because you've been through some things. And just because you're in leadership, it doesn't mean that you have to hide everything. I mean, women need to know they need to trust you, and before that they can learn from you. So talk about how, Tina how you climbed Mount Kilimanjaro, but God took You on other climbs now. And you were getting raw and transparent with others? And can you talk about some of those moments of getting raw and transparent with some of the women? Tina Rains  10:09   Absolutely. So one of the most powerful things for me in our community specifically was in when you climb these mountains, there was a fundraising aspect to it. So you're doing these events. And I shared my vulnerability and my childhood with hundreds of people that I had invited to a fundraiser. And it transformed not only my life, but the so many people's lives that were at that event, because they had this picture of this business woman who had it all together, I think some of them thought that I had been spoon fed. I don't know what they thought exactly. But they'd been in my home. And they had just, you know, they thought of me in one perspective. And when I was real and transparent with them, it's a no, look, this is what I suffered. And this is what I still have to do on a daily basis, oftentimes, when the enemy tries to use a trigger and deal with it. And that's what these victims of human trafficking and repression also experienced, and I correlated it, they were able to then be raw, authentic and transparent themselves. And I think as leaders on a daily basis, whether it's in business or ministry, as being real, with our weaknesses, gives permission to those around us to be real and raw and authentic. And that's one of our key pillars and masterpiece women, because I see such great value, and as being real and transparent, because it brings freedom, and then others are free to do it as well, because oftentimes, leaders are isolated, they feel like they can't be real and authentic and transparent, because it shows them as being weak. And I don't believe vulnerability and authenticity shows you to be weak. I think it actually shows you to be a great leader, when you're willing to do that. Kimberly Hobbs  11:57   Amen. Amen. And I know one of the things we talked about was when you're in a key role like this, and you're an example in leadership, you give permission to the women to when you are vulnerable, right permission for them to open up and share. And Galatians 522 expresses how, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. And the absolute best type of leadership is a type where someone demonstrates these nine traits listed in the Scriptures. And I know you Tina, putting ministry and business together as God has called you to do you have to show your example in leadership and in share these nine traits. And how do you do that if you're not open and vulnerable with somebody if you're not allowing them to see into your own life, and those things that you have learned from? So being raw and exposing your past? Sometimes it's so helpful in leadership. And we're hoping that you understand that ladies, the Bible is a great business guide to us. So these fruits of the spirit that I read through God called you teen into the ministry, to be authentic with others, so that they can hear and have breakthrough also. So can you share how the power of the Holy Spirit worked in and through you to deliver some of these fruits of the Spirit to others. Tina Rains  13:46   I love that. And it's so key when you talk about the Bible being it's like the best book for leadership you can ever find. If you don't know what to do go to Proverbs, like its leadership has written the wisdom in there, I always tell him, it's really your very best leadership book. You can spend all day long reading leadership books, but if you don't get in that word, and really delve into it, so he can lead you, you're kind of wasting your time. So I tell I really start there every morning. That's where your wisdom comes from. But, you know, I would say that joy, one of the greatest things was when I've been through the most difficult times, and this is something that you know, I've shared with many women in the past is how I led many people to Christ that were in my circle of influence. When I went through this difficult time wasn't on my successes. It was actually the fact that I was going through a divorce. And I was struggling in other areas of my life, even you know, there was the recession in 2008, with the economy and all that went with it. And I was having some of the most difficult times in my life personally, but yet I had more joy than I'd ever had because I had finally surrendered. In my life to Christ, and so being them, seeing that not me preaching at them, not me hitting them over the head with the Bible, or like some people like want to do, but just them seeing that. And seeing that I still had the joy, and was still able to serve others and love others, was actually how a few of my friends that I was had the privilege actually lead to Christ moving forward, that were business women in my community that I was very close to you, but they weren't Christians at the time. But they were a great human beings. And so it was a real privilege to watch that. And as I, you know, climb these mountains. And as we, we worked with the women all over the world, I would say, the love and in our ministry, I think that's really what it all amounts to is the love of Christ coming out and being exposed to the women that came to give you an example, my greatest memory, of climbing all these mountains was when I had the privilege of sharing Christ with one of the women that came, we knew she wasn't a Christian, she climbed on behalf of the women and children. And I said, How are you doing? Because I knew she wasn't a Christian. And here we are all these Christians around her were worshipping we're doing all these things, right? She was I've never felt I said, Are you feeling comfortable on she goes, I've never felt more comfortable than this ever. And I thought, that's the love. And so one thing, you know, so we had a conversation about what that meant. And we were able to actually, as a team of women on the side of a mountain leader to Christ, like, that's my favorite memory, not all the other things that we can sit, that's my, my top memory. And then we came off of Mount Kilimanjaro, we have the same experience with the guy that was our head guide, I was having a conversation with the mascot. And Murphy knew Jesus. And you know, we'd built a relationship during that week. And he didn't know who Jesus was. And so we as a team had the privilege of leading him to Christ on the way back from the mountain, like, those are my two favorite memories of the whole all those years. And it's because the people around him, showed him love. And in return, he wanted what they had. And that's really why we're here, right? Kimberly Hobbs  17:16   That's exactly why we're here and our number one commandment to love one another. And you did you you showed that love, and you took that time for those that didn't know Jesus that saw that difference in your life, which is so beautiful. So So transitioning into now you are a boss in your business. And there are a lot of bad bosses in the world today. And no one ever wants to be one of those bad bosses, or the ones that are talked about, you know, on on the quiet amongst the employees. So how would you encourage the listener today to be a leader for Jesus in their work environment. Tina Rains  18:05   I think most importantly, it goes back to abiding in him, you have to spend the time to buy it in him to really have that intimate relationship with him. So that every step of every day is really Holy Spirit lead the prayer time during the day even you know, as as we make decisions on an email, for instance, if we pray before an email that most of those emails won't even get sent. Right, think about it. Right? Kimberly Hobbs  18:39   I, I agree. I pray before I send anything out. And there's so many times delete, delete, or rewrite, rewrite? Yes. Tina Rains  18:47   It's you know, it's so important because as people work with us, and as they see how we behave, I remember you, I told so when I said, I'm like a bipolar person, if I don't have Jesus in the morning. Kimberly Hobbs  19:03   Exactly. Right. Yeah. I know, ladies, we need to start our day early. Because when we do when we open our eyes, if that's the first thing that is on our heart is Jesus and you talking to him and you're giving him the whole day to take control? Right, take it out of our hands, but give it to him first thing in the morning. He's going to take us through those days. Do you agree? Absolutely. Tina Rains  19:29   100%. I mean, the when you talk to most teams, and as I've done consulting for businesses, and even for ministries, and you go in you, you listen to the staff, if they're having difficulties with the team 90% of what I've experienced in the workplace has been I don't feel heard. I don't feel valued. And so as a leader is It's imperative that we listen that we'd be good listeners that we know who our employees are, what are they going through in their lives, and really show them compassion, because it's really difficult for an employee to see someone says, Oh, I'm a godly leader, and I'm donating to all these things. I'm doing all these good works. But yet, you don't even know who I am. And the fact that my husband is suffering from cancer, and my teenage son is run away, because you haven't taken the time to know me. And those are the kinds of things that matter to employees and to people that work for you, as a leader. They want to be known, they want to be heard. So I believe we can do our greatest value in the workplace in the marketplace, of just loving others well, and having compassion for them, and being generous, having spirits of generosity, and seeing how we can affect them. Kimberly Hobbs  21:00   Wow. So true. Good advice. Good advice, being a good listener, right? That's what you're just talking about. Because, you know, if you just overlook, and you just are pushing your agenda constantly and telling people what to do, they're not gonna listen to you. They want to know that you're engaged. And you know, they're, they're on the same level with you. So, ladies, be a good listener, be a good listener, to be that good leader. Tina Rains  21:30   And John Maxwell says, People don't care what you know, unless they know how much you care. Kimberly Hobbs  21:36   Right. Amen. That is great. Yeah, that's a great word, John, thank you. Yeah, speaking Oh, I have another scripture. John 1715 says, My prayer is not that you take them out of the world, but that you protect them from the evil one. So ladies, we don't want to take you out of that work environment, we want to keep you in that work environment, so that you can be that light that's shining light, and God wants to protect you while you're doing that. Tina is going to close out and just share something from her heart, like a word of encouragement to the business woman out there, that has a heart for ministry, that sometimes keeps a mouth closed in the workplace. And it's sometimes it's so hard, because you might be one of those shy people or people that aren't easily ready to open your mouth and say something. But Tina, what's your word of encouragement to that person who keeps her mouth closed? In the workplace? Tina Rains  22:43   You know what I would say, be bold, not necessarily bold with, you know, hitting people over the head with Jesus, because they don't really want that they want it and actions. But I would say if you, you just share little tidbits where there's something small of you know, what you learned at church or whatever, just just share the wisdom, if you're adding value to others, they see it, it reflects beautifully of who God is, because Christ is always adding value to us. And I would say just add value to others. And the more you do that, the more you love others, while the more you listen, you know, they're, they're gonna see Jesus in you, and they're gonna ask you questions, and that's when you have the opportunity to be more bold, and share who he is to you and what it means to you. And, you know, the best thing we can do is live our lives, emulating him. Kimberly Hobbs  23:38   So I was just gonna say that. I mean, that's just what what Tina is saying, you know, living out like the fruits of the spirit that we talked about, right? And so ladies, if you don't open your mouth, necessarily, just remember, live it out, live out your life, having the fruits of the Spirit, which I can read them again, love. Do you display love, where you are working? Think about yourself in that work environment. Are you displaying love to those that you don't even like working with? It's difficult to do? Do you have joy about it? Do you have joy about you, ladies? Our prayer is that we all know Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior. And when we do we have something to be joyful about Apsos Do you agree to you know, like we don't want to walk into the workforce. We want to share our faith in business and we want to be joyful about our faith because we have a God that died for our sins and we don't have to stay bound to that that sin anymore that drag us down that goddess into trouble, right? We have Tina Rains  24:50   a really, and we fall. Exactly. And you know what, there's nothing worse to us than to see a miserable Christian. Oh, well, if you're what a Christian is, and I'm really, I'm okay, because I'm happier than you are. And I do, I do encourage everyone as well is, if you have struggles, which we all do, right? Get to a place where you are free. And what does that mean? Just spend more time with Jesus praising him learning his word, letting him speak to you. Because when you're free, then you have those fruits of the Spirit bubbling out from you. And if you're not, and you find yourself grumpy ALL the time at work, and you're frustrated, you're this and you're that step back and take a little, you know, self evaluation, what in me, is still in bondage? And how do I need to allow the Lord to cleanse it to heal it and let go of the past and move forward? Because we can't be good replications of the Lord, if we have all this stuff going on, that is then spewing out to the people that we work with, because we're not doing the Lord. Any. We're not doing justice to you know who God called Mercy. Kimberly Hobbs  26:12   Exact Exactly. That's right. Right. And we're called to serve wherever we are ladies. And that includes the workplace if you're you're working for the Lord, but you know, even if you don't have a full time job, or part time job, and you are in your home, or your environment in the neighborhood, or whatever you're doing, we have to remember to put this into our everyday life that we are in positions where people are looking at us because we do call ourselves Christians and and I just love just hearing some of the nuggets that you learned along the way, Tina, because you know, now you've incorporated ministry into the business world. That's what you do, and masterpiece women. And I just wanted to finish some of these, again, fruits of the Spirit, patience, kindness or again, remember, as you're in your day to day life, ladies, and this may seem Elementary, but it's not. It's again, this is what God's called us to do as believers to just carry this within our person. patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self control, that is huge ladies, we constantly have to have ourselves in check of all of our emotions. If people frustrate us to no end, we need to have that self control. Right, Tina? Tina Rains  27:34   Absolutely. That can be one of the toughest ones honestly, especially if you have a justice person you want to you want to see justice and someone's in the workplace not doing what you think is right. Having self control and reacting in love is so valuable. Kimberly Hobbs  27:55   So valuable, so valuable. Tina has so many good nuggets and what she does is amazing and masterpiece women can you share with the women your website in case they want to look you up and look up the ministry and and I just know that in the future women were leaders and masterpiece women may be doing some things together which I'm really excited about because I love love what Tina is doing for the Lord. So please Tina, share your your website. Absolutely. Tina Rains  28:28   It's masterpiece women dot O R G. And I am super excited Kimberly about this relationship because I know that God is doing something great. And we have monthly luncheons in South Florida and those are for all women. Because every woman is a leader you do not have to be in business to come to our luncheons. And then we have a program where we actually empower women who are interested in building business or online businesses. We have tools and a whole membership platform to help them actually do that as well. So check out our website. It's masterpiece women, dot o RG and you know we're here to serve you. So that's what the Lord has called us to do is help women everywhere know they're a masterpiece, and renewed him in him, and then help them with the plans that God has given them. So thanks for having us again. I love what you're doing your ministry. Kimberly Hobbs  29:28   Thank you Well, and that's what's so beautiful is together. We are empowering women, ladies out there. We love you. And we have a passion because God has called us and this is what Tina and I do together and all of those that are in our ministry serving. We have passion to empower one another and point them to Jesus to be the best leader that you could be wherever you are. Tina happens to specialize in taking those business women and bringing them to another level and incorporating ministry. together with it. And I love that. And that's why I want to continue this relationship. And ladies and women, we're leaders, we have tools for you. And I just want to be certain to remind you, one of the most amazing tools that God has given us to share with the world is voice of truth. It is a publication that comes out every quarter now, and it is free, and it's beautiful. Inside the United States, you can get your color copy of voice of truth magazine, it's like table top quality magazine. And it's 100 pages, full color, all color, all beautiful, but filled with scripture, filled with encouraging you wherever you are in your walk. Whatever struggles you may encounter, it's inside of this. And we are just so happy. Oh, are you you're holding your background. Yeah. For those of you watching on YouTube, Tina is holding up a her color copy of voice of Truth magazine. And we are just so excited. Unknown Speaker  31:08   I love it Kimberly Hobbs  31:09   you with a yes, he's doing so much in and through this. Also, ladies, if you would like your to receive your free copy, if you're not getting it yet, and you are inside the United States, you can email us for your free copy at women world leaders.com. And there's a place in there where you can click on voice of truth and give us your name, address an email address that will not be shared ladies, it is just for women world leaders. And, and then again, we will send it to you and outside the US. You can look up on our website voice of truth and you can read it online as well. As well as all of the past copies of voice of truth. There is so much information in there to help you and encourage you on your daily walk with Jesus. And that's what we're all about ladies. So we'd like to thank you for your time today. I'd love to thank you again Tina Raines for being with us. God bless you in what you do at masterpiece women. God bless you the listener ladies and please join us each Monday, Wednesday and Friday for our different podcasts that we have available through women world leaders, we're here to help you encourage you reach out to us at women world leaders.com And in ways that we might be able to help you further. God bless you all, just remember that it is from his heart to yours that we are here. All content is copyrighted and cannot be used without expressed written consent. God bless you and have a beautiful week. Thank you. Thank you, Tina.

Brad Crowell and Lesley Logan share enlightening takeaways from confidence expert Simone in this compelling episode. They explore how confidence can be intentionally built through facing challenges and adopting actionable strategies. Tune in to learn about embracing failures, transforming mindsets, and using these experiences to cultivate a more confident and self-loving approach to life.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co. And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:Failure is a pathway to growth and a valuable learning experience.Cultivating a positive mindset to fuel actions and attract success. The importance of regularly asking yourself what you truly want in life.  Why acceptance and self-love is the foundation for true confidence. Episode References/Links:OPC Summer CampCambodia early birdSummer Tour is around the cornerBarrels FlashcardsLesley Logan eLevateBest Pilates Reformer for Home StudiosShop Spine Corrector at ContrologySimone Knego's websiteSimone Knego's podcastDaughter Dearest Pod interview with Lesley Logan  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. DEALS! Check out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper's Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSox Be in the know with all the workshops at OPCBe It Till You See It Podcast SurveyBe a part of Lesley's Pilates MentorshipFREE Ditching Busy Webinar  Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable Pilates Follow Us on Social Media:InstagramFacebookLinkedIn  Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  She actually believes that failure is actually an important part of how we grow and it's not a stop sign I love that failure is actually not a stop sign of some people come like we'll have an obstacle on the go oh, this is a sign that I'm not supposed to doing the thing? No, it's actually the thing you have to learn how to overcome to get to the next bucket level sometimes. Welcome to the be it till you see it podcast, where we talk about taking messy action knowing that perfect is boring. I must say Logan Paul is instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained 1000s of people around the world. And the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week my guests will bring bold executable intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and be it till you see it it's a practice not a perfect LET'S GET STARTED Welcome back to the beat till you see it interview recap where my co host and life Brad and I are going to dig into the positively competent combo I had with Simone Cunego in our last episode if you haven't yet listened to that one you should listen to it now. I'm gonna say positively competent combo I had with Simone Cunego did get on that can we just say that those words together positively competent combo with Simone Koneko. Like there's it's like one of those like, She sells seashells down by the seashore. I know you should have heard me yesterday when I was filming tutorials for the barrel stack okay, I had to keep saying see shaper. See shaper see shaper and it was really hard not to say shaper. Like you will say like you say it like I'm Leslie Logan here to talk about criss cross on the sea shaper and then it's like the C shape or the t shirt you just keep saying it starts to blend into su words. Hi guys anyways, todayBrad Crowell 1:59  it was a third take through that intro by the way.Lesley Logan 2:02  I was reading the wrong one slang. It's okay listen to the outtakes at the end. You'll hear it out here. So today is May 9 And it's all last sock Memorial Day. This is when you do due to or what's a memorial song?Brad Crowell 2:18  Do I have no idea what immortal Okay,Lesley Logan 2:21  so the origin of last sock Memorial Day is as big a mystery as the whereabouts are the socks. The day is meant to memorialize. But socks have been around for centuries. And it's clear Americans love their socks and 2018 in the US alone we purchased over $11 billion in socks. Most men wear socks every day including those particularly fashionable guys who wear socks with sandals Brad what hardly oh my gosh, you guys are ugly. We're so lucky. We know he wears socks with his sandals all all the time his socks and stocks all the time. So I believe rock industry continues to grow in sales and expand in variety. Gone are the days of the one color one style sock HelloBrad Crowell 2:57  Who does that boringLesley Logan 2:58  I know I'm back to crew socks that I love it. Today socks are multiple purposes and are manufactured perform based on neat of course the dress the trouser sock is neutral colors exist for professionals, or fancy occasions for the markets for fun and functional socks are making a name for themselves. There are themed graphics like it keeps going I have Star Wars I'm going to skip to the end. So apparently they did a survey. And it said that the average person loses 1.3 SOCKS per month what that is over 15 SOCKS per person per year. So you can see that this is universally hits home and it causes us all distress when sock goes missing major distress. In fact, today we stand together to pay tribute to our deeply departed socks and this is where the song would come on. AndBrad Crowell 3:42  it would be amazing because it causes so much stress that I decided with the help of my favorite chat bot to write an ode to my last suck. Okay, so here we go Jeffro should be singing this Oh noble sock, vanishing into the abyss of the laundry is dark realm. Once snugly paired now solitary you wander alone, a solitary helm in the labyrinth of mismatched pairs your absence leaves a longing overwhelmLesley Logan 4:14  long and overwhelmed. That's how it finished up on chat TV.Brad Crowell 4:18  Ah Hey, who said that?Lesley Logan 4:21  I don't know who your favorite is. I that's what I know. That's all you guys I don't even I don't even use a chatbot I don't I don't use I don't have any AI. That's what my team is for. Okay, back to the regular scheduled program upcoming events and travel get ready get your get your pen and paper out and paper out OPC summer camp is less than a month away June one and we are hoping for the biggest biggest summer camp Edberg. If you don't have to attend live you can watch the replays. So what you can do to go is go to opc.me/events OPC that means slash events plural and you will see we have 14 events and you can buy them ala carte. You can buy a day pass or you buy both day passes. The savings is On the day pass, I will tell you that at any rate, I'm teaching one event and we have 13 other teachers from around the world. I'm so excited. We have a variety of classes and workshops and all different pieces of equipment, spinning different topics we've got, like Heather Ingram is doing Empower Matt. It's a resiliency mat class for those who have who had breast cancer or have are going through it. I'm super excited about that. We have Aaron Donohue doing a pelvic floor mat class. Super stoked about that. We also have workshops on knee pain, we have one a chair class, a couple reformer classes, a Tower of Power with the head tower power, happy hour with Lisa, I can keep going, it's gonna be great. We have 1414. So seven classes, seven workshops, over two days, come alive for the party. Watch the replays whenever you want. But you got to buy them before they go into full price. I'm just saying. So obviously that means slash events June 1 And second is going to be when we go live. Yeah.Brad Crowell 5:58  And if you sign up for any of them, whether you pick ala carte, or you buy the full day pass, you actually have access to the replay indefinitely. Yeah. in perpetuity, in perpetuity forever ever. For Finiti CambodiaLesley Logan 6:15  earlybird is happening as this is happening. So if you are on the waitlist, got the email, and if you aren't on the waitlist, you don't get it. So you have to wait. Well,Brad Crowell 6:24  if you want to get on the waitlist right now go to Leslie logan.co/retreats. With portal that's plural. So that'sLesley Logan 6:31  gonna be our February event because October is very sold out. Yeah, first of all down super not an option. So FebruaryBrad Crowell 6:39  in and yeah, February, we're gonna go the 25th I think for 23 to 28, something like that. It's the end of Feb. It'sLesley Logan 6:46  after it's after the Lunar New Year. So you know, we'll be past the high season of travel andBrad Crowell 6:52  it's gonna be great. I'm really, really fired up and we're gonna have an amazing group at that point in the year as well. Next up, we got Summer Tour summer.Lesley Logan 7:01  We are doing a summer tour. We're not doing the West Coast tour. This time we're doing the summer we're doing I don't know it was the Midwest. Yeah. And I'm super excited because I've been back to Milwaukee since 2018. IBrad Crowell 7:12  know it's been a minute and in fact, you've never done Minnesota and we're looking at I've never been to Minnesota. I got locked in. It's not confirmed yet, but we're working on it literally right now.Lesley Logan 7:22  We're gonna get back to Chicago for the first time since 2018.Brad Crowell 7:25  Yeah, this time we're gonna hit Cleveland, but on the summer tour, and then we're gonna go south back through the Midwest. So we're looking at like, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, St. Louis, Kansas City. Yeah, we're even looking at Colorado Springs, y'all.Lesley Logan 7:41  Yeah. So at any rate, you want to go to opc.me/door? Yeah, getBrad Crowell 7:45  yourself on the waitlist for the tour. We're going to start talking about it and opening up the doors for that in earnest after summer camp. So yeah, first is summer camp. After that. We'll do the Summer Tour. Yeah.Speaker 1 7:55  Barrels flashcard. Oh, my goodness. So actuallyBrad Crowell 7:59  lots of progress.Lesley Logan 8:00  Here's the thing. This might be the last chance get on the waitlist, because based on one's is coming out and our presale is very, very, very sorted. It could be happening as we speak. I'm not really certain on that. So here's the deal. You want to go to opc.me/flashcard waitlist, it's a lot. It's a mouthful. Ready. opc.me/flashcard waitlist, all in a word. So only people on the waitlist will get the presale price. The pre sale price is the best price you don't want to miss out on that.Brad Crowell 8:28  Oh, this is a new exciting news that les is looking at me like do we want to talk about this? Maybe maybe not.Lesley Logan 8:36  No, I'm skipping it. We're skipping it. There's other people who need to hear about that first. Okay.Brad Crowell 8:40  All right. Well, we have something very exciting, well, secret that we will shareLesley Logan 8:45  later. Because come back maybe next week, but not just me doing that.Brad Crowell 8:48  Alright, so lastly, butLesley Logan 8:51  not leastly is the elevate my mentorship program for amazing teachersBrad Crowell 8:57  to say lastly, but not less late. Oh.Lesley Logan 9:01  All right. All right. So if you look at the OBC summer camp, all the teachers have been through my mentorship program. So they will to see how they teach and like their personalities and their styles. And I couldn't pick every grad. So for the grads listening, it's not like I skipped you. There. I only do so many. But I I was able to see the teaching, and I was able to at that time pick them. I'm not saying that. That's why you should elevate you should do elevate because it makes you fucking badass. Yeah, and I actually just got a message from one of our grads who was kind of treated like a little bit like crap at work. And she actually took a moment and asked for a meeting. And then she asked what she want that meeting. She got what she wanted that meeting and she was able to remember like a year before being so scared to have a meeting. And now she's like comparing herself to herself. It's like, I know I'm good. And so if you are wanting competence in your teaching and your power and your awesomeness, and you are already a comprehensively to mean teacher, go to Leslie logan.co/ew. Leslie Logan, that CEO slash Ew, that's going to get you on the waitlist. The people on the waitlist are the ones who and we invited to apply. And we're not probably doing applications until after summer camp to be completely honest. I'm I'm 100% positive about that. But we have to fill 2025 early so you guys can plan your life around this amazing experience. Yeah. And it's virtual my mentorship is virtual you can come in person around for is like all up a whole bunch of people out there all the time. I love it so much. So anyways,Brad Crowell 10:37  we also people who are all over the world as literally not an option to come in person. So yeah, it was designed to be virtual. Just we got a couple of people who were like, Can I drop in?Lesley Logan 10:45  And then we're like, Sure. And then people just keep coming. And now it's like, it's amazing. We know a guy named Kevin around the corner who Airbnbs his place. So we met Kevin, we don't we actually have never met Kevin but okay, so we thought we gotta get into some Alan. But before we do that, do we have an audience? Question?Brad Crowell 11:02  We sure do. This is from Daniella on Instagram, on the ad G. Is there a cheap reformer that you can recommend? Dr. Leslie? No, there isn't.Lesley Logan 11:15  There's not there is not there isn't? Here's the deal. If you are looking for appeal applies equipment you can afford. Check out a window chair, check out a spine corrector check out the ControlLogix line. The spine corrector is about $700 When a chair I want to say is like 1200 and might be a little bit better. Look, I don't know what the price is already done this exact moment. But yes, that's still expensive. But it is a piece of code that doesn't take up a lot of space. You can have an amazing workout on it. It will support your mat practice. And it's not forBrad Crowell 11:41  rolling it around. It doesn't break either. Yeah. YouLesley Logan 11:45  know, and so the best performer is a ControlLogix reformer. And then there's other reforms that are also amazing. But any reformer, that's really going to get you the results you want isn't me over $3,000 I'm sorry. I hate to break it to you. That's just how it goes. They're hard to make they have hundreds of parts. Like it's just a complicated and when there is a cheaper form are out there that you're seeing, like Costco or some like that, it's probably doesn't have springs, it probably doesn't have the weight limit. Most easel springs, right? It's not going to have the foot bar that moves around. So check out my video on YouTube about choosing a home or farmer and you will hear why I cannot tell you about a cheaper farmer that I would ever recommend. Yeah,Brad Crowell 12:27  so just go to a search lesson Logan home reformer or we'll put it in the show. It'sLesley Logan 12:34  a YouTube video. So thank you for your question, Daniela. I'm so sorry. I'm the bearer of bad news. But also, you know what one of my clients she has a tower and a wooden chair in her entryway of her townhouse. And she's had an a spine corrector now she misses reformer. Absolutely. She actually doesn't have space for it. So this is what we're doing. And it's really quite exciting. You'd be surprised what you can get out of having a spine Correct. I have another client that I teach online who only has a mat and I want to cheer and you know, like it's great. It's amazing. We work out every week together. So anyway, thanks for asking good questions. Send your questions in via pod we will answer them here and and that's that's that heard itBrad Crowell 13:14  here first, peeps. Okay. Now let's talk about Simone. Can I go Simone, a keynote speaker and author of the extraordinary an ordinary you is renowned for her journey from CPA to a dedicated advocate for women with experiences in teaching medical sales and charitable works. She uses her diverse background of inspire and empower confidence in others. Simona is also the host of the daughter dears podcast, furthering her impact on personal development. I just want to do a brag for Simone. She summited Mount Kilimanjaro. Kilimanjaro, the big one. It's pretty cool.Lesley Logan 13:50  It's really cool. Also, I was on the daughter ders podcast. So I would go listen to my episode. It's a great way to break into the daughter dears podcast, I look got to talk to her daughter Olivia. And, and also Simone and Nate has asked really great questions, and we had a really great conversation. So highly recommend that you go listen to that episode. And then you can see if you really like it. I think her podcasts is really great. I love this a mother daughter podcast, and they talk about really amazing things someone has just, she's also just freaking cool. And she has the coolest tennis shoes. Oh, it just came out. Yeah, it just came outBrad Crowell 14:28  the episode. I'm gonna put the I'm going to put the link to that in the show notes.Lesley Logan 14:33  While he's doing that. Here's the deal. I loved that she is a very big believer that it's okay to change your mind. I think that's really something we we I for fucking sure have a really hard time doing this. Brad has been the reason why all like, he taught me how to cancel plans. He's like I said, but we told him to do that. He's like, Well, we changed our mind. We can't we're not or we aren't doing the thing that was over there. So we can't do the thing with them that's over there. So it's gonna have Change. And I'm like, oh my god, people get mad. So anyways, I just absolutely love that she, that she said this. And I think it's a great point for all of us. But until I see it people to remember that it's okay to change your mind. And trying different things also means that she has to fail and some of it and I think that that's also a really cool thing, you're gonna fail forward, really, especially if you learn from it. She actually believes that failure is actually an important part of how we grow. And it's not a stop sign. I love that. Failure is actually not a stop sign of some people come like we'll have an obstacle on the go, oh, this is a sign that I'm so busy doing the thing? No, it's actually the thing you have to learn how to overcome to get to the next fucking level, sometimes, you know what I mean? People Oh, door closed at the sign of necessity after that thing. You know what I mean? It's like, no one thinks about that with dating. By the way, no one goes up that day, it was honestly me alone for my date set. So that means I'm not meant to be with anybody. You know what I mean? But we think about that with anything that we want to do in our life, or like, Oh, no one responded to my post. So I'm not good enough, whatever. And it's like that, what are you talking about? These are not stop signs. These are just feedback. And she also mentioned that we should embrace failure. And to understand failures don't equal your worth. I love this. Because all the people that we admire, who are amazing business, people, whatever, they all fail on a lot of things. One of our coaches, literally coaches, people on book titles, and all these things. And he talks endlessly about how he titled one of his books terribly wrong.Brad Crowell 16:36  And he argued, he argued for this title that he has now concluded later is terribly wrong. It's terribly wrong. Like he was convinced this is going to be the best amazing title ever.Lesley Logan 16:48  Yeah, more or less. And so but he has used it as a way to help others not have that same thing. So it's kind of we, you know, these fail, we should call them other things. This is some words that need rebranding. And failure is one of them. It's a sliding step. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not the marketing people here. But I'm just saying it needs a new thing. Well, I'll your needs a PR person,Brad Crowell 17:17  we need a PR person for failure. Alright, here's what I really loved. She was talking about Kilimanjaro. Actually, really, really fascinating side note, she said that we apparently have 6000, roughly 6000 thoughts a day and 80% of them are negative what the effLesley Logan 17:33  I know. And also most of them are repetitive. They're the same thoughts as before. I'm like, who's counting these thoughts? Ding, ding. And also, do you ever wonder like, okay, as the overachiever in the room, the recovering one? I'm like, a bit, you have more?Brad Crowell 17:49  A bit, you have more negative thoughts than you know,Lesley Logan 17:52  I'm not. I'm not fighting for those. But that's funny.Brad Crowell 17:55  She said, when she was climbing Kilimanjaro. First off, it was like, a process to even get there and the mental battle to you know, write off the people who are who are basically challenging her. Or do you think you're actually going to make it? You know, like, yeah, I fucking do. Why do you think I'm going to I'm just going to do this. So I can go to the base. ButLesley Logan 18:16  what needs me fucking train on proper responses in life? Just yeah, that's here's the thing. When someone gets married, you don't have to ask them if they're having a baby. When someone said they're gonna climb a mountain. You don't have to ask them. Do you think you're gonna fucking finish it? Yeah, what happens? IfBrad Crowell 18:30  you follow? It says I'm going to open a Pilates studio. Do your friends go? Really? That's so risky. Are you going to do that? Yeah. Well, yes. If they say that,Lesley Logan 18:37  then and it's one or the other. If that is you, if I just said, if I just said a response that you think you've done, first of all, give yourself permission to never do it again. And also let it go. You did it and now you know better. But it I get it. Like I have a girlfriend who I just was having coffee with and she has a four year old. And there is a part of me that wants to know, does she want to have another guess what I didn't do ask? I kept it to my fucking cell. If she wants to tell me if she's having another, she will tell me. It's not my business. That's fun. Anyways, well,Brad Crowell 19:08  so she she was talking about while she was climbing Kilimanjaro. She was actually having this internal argument with herself. And she had to, you know, continue to encourage her own self and challenge herself while she was climbing the hill, y'all. And she said, when you once you got back home, it was really exhilarating. You know, it was quite a moment that she could be proud of. And she said, the challenge of it was something that she isn't going to forget she see challenged us to find our own Kilimanjaro and in a figurative sense, not necessarily a literal sense. Although, if any of you decide to go climb Kilimanjaro, tell us because we will cheer you along. There'll be alsoLesley Logan 19:55  the other Kilimanjaro climber we've had because now we've had to JenBrad Crowell 19:59  Did she climb a clique is Kilimanjaro the second highest? So yeah, it'sLesley Logan 20:03  okay to see we have had to I remember on her first attempt, two people died. Yeah. So she turned around, turn around. And then she did it again. She actually did it again. But guess what she's doing? She's creating a like retreat of some kind where you will climb with her? Oh, wow. And I was like, wow. And she's like, Yeah, are you in and I was like, probably not. So excited for you, and everyone is doing it with you, because I'm gonna go with Simone and find my own Kilimanjaro. When I'm on my own. I'm gonna say, owning the businesses we have feels like fucking climbing Kilimanjaro every day. So I'm good. Note it. I got it. Well, youBrad Crowell 20:45  know, she actually said it was not part of her bucket list. And she did it as part of a charity work to raise money for the LIVESTRONG Foundation. And people asked her what it would feel like if she didn't reach the summit. And she said, honestly, it wasn't about reaching the summit for her. It was the mindset that got her there. Like I was saying one step at a time continuing to encourage yourself, she did talk herself up, not down so many times during the climb due to self doubt. Right, and then having summitted Kilimanjaro and surmounted her negative self talk, that's why she's encouraging everyone to go find their own Kilimanjaro because it was a challenge. And it was it was probably quite scary. And you know, what a conversation we're having in your head, if you actually do doubt yourself making it to the top? Well, I just think is great, though. Because you know, and you're Kilimanjaro doesn't have to be an extra. It doesn't have to be physical. It could be, you know, Kilimanjaro, it could be weighing nice to that person who's consistently an asshole to you. You know, it could be, it could be right. Like, I said, I'm not, I'm not a parent. So I don't have to go to like PTA meetings. I don't have to go to soccer games to stay on the sidelines.Lesley Logan 21:59  We gotta dig neighbor that we have to like we do. Yeah, that's my mountain calling drought.Brad Crowell 22:04  I'm still working on that. There's,Lesley Logan 22:07  there's like, Okay, you guys, when we walk past this one house, also passes one house is the view of a building that shall remain nameless, because I envision the name of this building, burning off the building every single day. And so maybe my mountain Kilimanjaro is just not noticed these two things that I have to walk past, that might be it. Or maybe it's just like not having negative thoughts while I do it. But at any rate, find your own. Ask us later, if we found ours, that can be a question you ask. AndBrad Crowell 22:36  like I said before, you know whether it's literal Kilimanjaro or figured out if you've got something that you are going to tackle, and you want us to cheer you on. Tell us Yeah,Lesley Logan 22:46  well, and also you can send us your wins when you do because we have an FY EPS but and I just want to reiterate, she was focusing on overcoming her negative thoughts to get her up there to talk herself up, like you said, it's okay to talk yourself up.Brad Crowell 22:59  Yeah,Lesley Logan 23:00  I think it's really important. And also, like Brad said, we want to cheer you on. If you don't ask us to cheer you on. That's totally fine, not offended. But tell people in your life, this is really important to me, and how you react to me doing this thing is also really important to me, you know, Brené Brown, as the person who taught me the people whose opinions of you matter, they should know that their opinions of you matter. Yeah. And so if you have someone in your life who you love, and whenever you tell him, you're doing something that scares you, they kind of shit around it, then you need to have a talk with them. It says, When I tell you what I'm excited about. And we you respond with doubt. It's really hard for me to stay excited. So I would really love it. If when I say something that I'm excited about that you just say I'm excited for you. And then take your fears and talk to your other friend about it.Brad Crowell 23:53  Or another time not in the moment. Yeah,Lesley Logan 23:55  yeah. Yeah. Cuz, you know, they think they're being curious, but their curiosity is actuallyBrad Crowell 24:00  negative shanks. Yeah, um, youLesley Logan 24:04  know, Dr. Pepper, no, Sprite. We don't do those things around here. Okay, let's go to those be. At least a Dr. Pepper is better. I still haven't had you know, I haven't had soda since I was 18 years old.Brad Crowell 24:16  Oh, really? Yeah. That's impressive. I've definitely had soda since I know it's terrible for you. Yeah. I mean, I don't have it all the time.Lesley Logan 24:23  It doesn't even matter. It's like it clears off battery acid from a car you should not be drinking.Brad Crowell 24:30  This is true. It does that. All right. Finally let's talk about those be it action items what bold, executable intrinsic or targeted action items. Can we take away from your combo with Simone can Nago, she said that she uses affirmations on a daily basis. And then she told a really hilarious story about her daughter being like, I have nothing to be happy about today. And she was like, Oh, yes, you do. Let me tell you how. And then her daughter was like, I'm never telling that to you again. ButLesley Logan 24:56  you know what? Simone just was that guys That's an example of the response people in your life should be saying to you, yeah, when you're like, nobody likes me, you should have someone's like, Nope, this person, this person, this person, this person, last person. Somebody goes, oh my god, it's so true. No one likes you. Yeah, right.Brad Crowell 25:13  So right, everyone hates you.Lesley Logan 25:16  Yeah, you do. So did you know that this person also?Brad Crowell 25:22  She said, it's important that we constantly ask ourselves what we want, so that you can get what you need. Right? Because I think, you know, the two of you were talking about effectively, just doing life and being sucked into the whirlwind that I like to call the whirlwind. And there are times where we feel like we need to make a change to tackle something big, right? I've often over the years, I've had moments in my life where I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna have to kick it into high gear, right? And and that might be for the next six months, or whatever it might be right? And she said, we kind of forget to change it up. We just get stuck in this thing. So whether that is oh,Lesley Logan 26:08  you You mean, you're like the truck that just gets the press accelerate just floors it and yeah.Brad Crowell 26:16  lived at one of those trucks. The Tesla, the Tesla truck,Lesley Logan 26:20  they're called something else. They're called. This has happened, guys. So obviously, you're gonna know when we did this, but it's called theBrad Crowell 26:26  cyber truck, the cyber, the cyber truck has flopped and just issued a recall shocking, because the accelerator literally gets stuck to the floor, and then it's stuck in high that is accelerated.Lesley Logan 26:37  That's a lot of you, you guys get stuck. You like you.Brad Crowell 26:41  I mean, me too. I've done it too. Right. ILesley Logan 26:42  do it all the time. But you're also Enneagram three. So that's true. But like, it's you forget that you also have another gear, which is called Slow? Well, it's not.Brad Crowell 26:52  It's not just that. But we when we kick into high gear, there's one consistent common factor that suffers and that is yourself. Because you're like, I don't need to deal with me right now I need to focus on this thing. I need to focus on my family, my daughter, my, you know, my partner is going through law school, whatever it is, right? And you're, you're shifting everything around to support this cause. And, you know, there comes a time where you're like, hey, wait a minute, you know, what do I actually want? Because it might be that the two of you or on a team or you know, there is this thing where you're consistently sacrificing, but you also need to make sure you're taking care of yourself. And if you don't ask yourself, what do I want? How are you going to know? Yeah, I thought about this when I was listening to the interview, you know, and I love running our company and traveling and all the things. And I asked myself, What do I want? And I like literally the answer was instantaneous sleep. You know, and so it's like, okay, maybe I need to be more intentional about sleep. And then I won't. That won't be my guttural responseLesley Logan 28:01  on something else. Yeah, yeah, they're gonna want something else. Yeah. So anyway,Brad Crowell 28:05  ask yourself, what do you want? Right? And, yeah,Unknown Speaker 28:10  well, I'll go Yeah, go.Lesley Logan 28:12  So she said, respect your reflections. We need to learn to love the woman or the man or the person in the mirror, likeBrad Crowell 28:21  the reflection asleep.Lesley Logan 28:22  Know what I need to know. No, no, no, no. Literal reflections, your literal reflection,Brad Crowell 28:28  okay, literal reflection.Lesley Logan 28:29  So she wants us to be who we are. So that when we look in the mirror, the first thing we see is what we actually love. And that's us. It's ourselves. And the truth is, is that so many of us are comparing ourselves to others. When we're actually looking in the mirror. We're comparing ourselves, you know, to like something unattainable, and then we're nitpicking. And really, it's just like, get it just focus. Like yeah, to love the person. And you're always loveSpeaker 1 28:52  the one you're with. Yeah. Love the one. You wasted something earlier that that was a better so I love the one we're looking at in the mirror. Yeah, no,Lesley Logan 29:01  that was not the song either. There was another song earlier. I don't remember. It'll come back. Oh, you said we don't get as we want. We ate and I was like, we can't I hate that song. When you get it. You can't always get what you want on. And he just keeps repeating that, but IBrad Crowell 29:19  just my he gave meLesley Logan 29:24  like, oh my god, what was that music? Good. Anyway, Simone, You're fabulous. Thank you for teaching us all. Oh, I missed this part.Brad Crowell 29:32  This is important. This is important. Yeah.Lesley Logan 29:34  She said that 20% of people are born with confidence. So 80% of us have to work with it. If you're listening to this, and you're like, I'm struggle with confidence. It's because you're probably part of the 80%. And so we'll work on it. And Simone with her Mount Kilimanjaro situation, that's how she was able to she committed to something and she did the thing. And she that'sBrad Crowell 29:53  coaches, women on Khan competence.Lesley Logan 29:55  She literally said when were with her last week, she said women instead of asking for a raise, we'll just look for another job. And really, competence comes like ask for the raise, even if you don't get it like the girl I've talked about earlier about Elevate, she like went in there and she asked what she wanted. And what I saw when I saw the video telling me about it was she was so fucking competent because she did the thing, right? The things that scare us or the things like put us in a confident bucket. So just go do that. All right, Melissa Logan, and I'm Brad Crawley. Thank you so much for listening, or watching or how are reading this? I don't know how you're doing it. Anyway, we're so grateful for you. This is due here. This is episode 365 Holy cow, holy cow. We're here because of you. And if it's your first time, we're still here because of you. Well, thank you so much for being here. Make sure you share this podcast with a friend who needs to hear it. And until next time, be it Titus yet bye for now. That's all I got for this episode of the bee until you see a podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the beat pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it help us and others be it till you see it. Have an awesome day. Be it till you see it is a production of the bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read another episode you can text us at plus 1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram at Viet pot. It'sBrad Crowell 31:31  written filmed and recorded by your host Leslie Logan and me Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 31:36  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team had to send you Dotco ourBrad Crowell 31:41  theme music is by Ellie at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist John Franco children.Lesley Logan 31:47  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 31:51  Awesome Angelina Hurco for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meredith rude for keeping us all on point and on top.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Eric went on the Mindf*ck podcast and got a raw doggin on his noggin. Law was in a rut and now in an upswing. Both introduce the show by signing the theme song from Saved By The Bell: The College Years.   Overcoming motivation struggles. (10:59) Comedy, trauma, and prioritizing tasks. (15:52) Creativity, work ethic, and mental health. (23:11) P Diddy Pedophilia and pedophile hunters. (28:31)     Episode sponsored by ZUPYAK - The first search optimized AI writer. Zupyak.com  → promo code  → SWEAT by SQUARESPACE website builder → https://squarespacecircleus.pxf.io/sweatequity by CALL RAIL call tracking → https://bit.ly/sweatequitycallrail by LINKEDIN PREMIUM - 2 months free! → https://bit.ly/sweatequity-linkedin-premium by BLOOM.io → https://bloom.cello.so/aZBXRYS22rB by OTTER.ai → https://otter.ai/referrals/AVPIT85N ---   Sweat Equity

21st April 2024 The Spokesmen Cycling Podcast EPISODE 352: Laura Laker SPONSOR: Tern Bicycles HOST: Carlton Reid GUEST: Laura Laker LINKS: https://www.the-spokesmen.com/ https://www.ternbicycles.com https://twitter.com/CarltonReid https://twitter.com/laura_laker https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/potholes-and-pavements-9781399406468/ Carlton Reid 0:11 Welcome to Episode 352 of the Spokesmen cycling podcast. This show was engineered on Sunday, April 21 2024. David Bernstein 0:28 The Spokesmen cycling roundtable podcast is brought to you by Tern bicycles. The good people at Tern are committed to building bikes that are useful enough to ride every day and dependable enough to carry the people you love. In other words, they make the kind of bikes that they want to ride. Tern has e-bikes for every type of rider. Whether you're commuting, taking your kids to school or even carrying another adult, visit www.ternbicycles.com. That's t e r n bicycles.com to learn more. Carlton Reid 1:04 I'm Carlton Reid and today's show is a chat with like journalist Laura Laker, author of an excellent new book, Potholes and Pavements. This is a travelogue featuring Laura's travels around the UK, writing on some of the best and worst bits of Britain's National Cycle network. From jaw droppingly gorgeous looking ancient military roads in the Highlands of Scotland to dark and dingy urban back streets blocked with barriers. As the books subhead warns, it's a bumpy ride. Um, so you've written a book. Is this your first? Laura Laker 1:46 Yeah, my first my first book, believe it or not, Carlton Reid 1:49 well done. Congratulations. It's a brilliant first book. One of many. I'm sure it'll be one of many. I noticed you've got a an agent. Yeah, you say in the back and thank him. So I'm guessing you're going to be doing more books? Laura Laker 2:00 Yeah, I guess so. I'm not trying to think about it too much. This one was very long in the gestation. I had an idea back in 2017 to do a basically ring around talking to people. I'd listened to the audiobook of John Steinbeck's Travels with Charlie, in which he travels across the US with his big poodle, and talking to people and he says he's most wonderful conversations, which were later question for their veracity, but it's just, it's just a wonderful format. And I love I'd kind of in that trip to America, I rediscovered my love of talking to strangers, which I had as a kid, and I'm kind of lost over the years, I guess, being British, but spending time in the US where everyone is just willing to talk to you and tell you their life story. I rediscovered this just love of cycling, is brilliant for that, you know, just talking to people you're travelling around, you might stop at some lights, or you might pass someone on a path and just get chatting to them. And it's wonderful people have the most amazing stories, I think Carlton Reid 2:59 Well, there's two teachers that you met, hopefully they will read the book. You weren't avoiding them. Laura Laker 3:07 I know Greg and Norton, they were so brilliant. And the most unexpected encounters and I was up in the Cairngorms and travelling alone and feeling a bit like oh, you know, such a beautiful, it's ridiculously beautiful up there. I'm always just astounded by Scotland, and how how it's possible for somewhere to be so beautiful. And the NCN [National Cycle Network] across the Cairngorms is something else, it's really quite remarkable. A lot of its off road, it's this dedicated path. It was an old military road. And the rest is on fairly quiet country roads. And I was pootling along on my big pink ebike, which I did some of my adventures on and I saw these roadies coming up behind me and I thought well that they're going to overtake me in a bit. And sure enough, they did. We said hello. And then I saw them stopped at this bridge and they were looking over and they just had this wonderful kind of whimsy about them this they weren't they were going a long way actually they're going from kind of Aviemore back to Preston where they were at least one of them lived and doing it over a couple of days in sort of training one of them's an Ironman enthusiastic participants, but on the way they were stopping looking over bridges, that sort of waterfalls over rocks and like looking across the landscape and just enjoying the scenery. And that for me is what cycling is about. It's about appreciating the world around us and the people around us and so they said we'll ride with us for a while and as you know ebike your Aberdeen bought a bike mine included, maxes out at 15 and a half miles an hour which these guys were obviously capable of exceeding quite easily. So but they they rode with me for quite some time and we chatted and they were just fantastic. And then yeah, they they stopped for a week and I had to run inside for a week. And then I came out and they'd gone Carlton Reid 4:51 but it's quite a nice way to say goodbye. Are you are you are you taking notes as you're going along? So you wrote their names and what they did. And or you coding stuff. How are you physically? Laura Laker 5:02 Yeah, so I get back at the end of a ride and write stuff down. And I do think it's best that way, especially with travel writing, because you forget so much so quickly. And the big three Cornwall, I think is, you know, in the early parts of the book, when I first started the exploration, further afield, you know, writing stuff down as you experience it, or very soon after is really important because you lose a lot of the detail and the texture of what you're experiencing. And I think it just makes for much richer story that way, but also difficult to do because you're having to memorise and maybe that's why Steinbeck was getting criticised because he wasn't writing No, no. As he was going along, he's remembering it. Well, memories can do. Memory is really interesting, actually. Because we we probably most of us think that our memories are fairly good, or the way that remember things is correct. But actually, it's very, very subjective. And the longer time goes on, the more we forget, or the memory gets warped, or things get introduced that didn't exist, maybe and it's really very, very subjective. I've got I don't know for some things, I've got quite a good short term memory so I can remember to a certain extent, but obviously, as Homer Simpson once said, you know, one thing comes into your brain another thing has to leave it so. Carlton Reid 6:23 That's 100% me though. So this book Potholes and Pavements, a bumpy ride on Britain's National Cycle network, it comes out May the ninth published by Bloomsbur. £16.99. Excellent, excellent book. I read it yesterday and got up early this morning to make sure I finished it before I spoke with you. Now normally when when I talk to people for this podcast, I always get them to send me a photograph so I can do the you know, the socials and the thing that goes on the show notes. What have you with you, oh, an hour and a half to do that. Because I have ridden with you ridden with you on bits of the ride that you are right that you mentioned in your book. So when you mentioned that, you know the cycle superhighway. You make an item was like, I've got that photograph because I was holding my camera photographing you behind me? Laura Laker 7:20 Yeah, with Brian Deegan. Carlton Reid 7:21 There's knowing smiles when I'm reading your books like I was on that ride. Like I know, Laura. Oh, my word. It's also like me on that ride. And when you describe windmills, yes. But the windmills and it's a cute book for me. Also cute because I know lots of these people who you're describing. And I know in the book, it says he didn't want to be described as a hero. But he is a hero. And because it's about the National Cycle network, then clearly that's got to be the guy who not single handedly founded it, but certainly pushed it through with those with those early innovators. So that's John Grimshaw. So he comes in, he's, he's in at least three or four parts of the book, you've clearly gone to speak to him a number of times wonderful. And it's fantastic that he's in there, because he really doesn't get the recognition he deserves. Laura Laker 8:16 Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, he I obviously have to speak to John Grimshaw. Because a lot of people as he points out, and as I tried to convey in the book, a lot of people and probably, you know, uncountable numbers of people were involved in the foundation of and development of the National Cycle network. And then it's maintenance ever since many of whom are working for very little, in fact, nothing, because they loved it. But John really seemed like, talking to people and talking to him, was the driving this real driving force behind it and his kind of self belief and single minded determination, I think was a major driver and he is such a character. I mean, a bit of a Marmite character, I think, but, you know, it seems like you need people to kind of drive things forward. Carlton Reid 9:05 Cos you need somebody like that. He's a visionary. Yeah, you know. I love Malcolm Shepherd. I love Zavier Brice, the people who are in charge now and Malcolm was the guy who came in after after John. But Malcolm wasn't a visionary. Malcolm was an accountant. And when when the organisation any organisation any business gets big, then you very often need somebody else to take over. And there's lots of faction there at the time. You don't go into it in a great detail. That was enormous friction there and there's still enormous amount of bad blood between people. Laura Laker 9:46 Yeah, and it's interesting because Caroline Lovatt. Here's another key figure from fairly early on and still works with John today. On there, they're still building cycle routes under a different organisation, cycle routes and greenways and Um, she says that, you know, for for years, according to her, John kept disappearing from the kind of record of that of the history of the NCN on Wikipedia, she kept putting him back in. And um, yeah, I mean, the story was, and that was a difficult part of it to tell. But it was one that had to be mentioned, I didn't want to go too into it. But obviously, you know, John, leaving Sustrans under fairly strange circumstances, and really against his will, was was part of the story that needed to be told. And it was a different and I spoke to a number of people and nobody really, I think, you know, there were potentially nondisclosure agreements. And so nobody really talks about what exactly happened, which is why I call I mentioned the omerta. Because it really seems like everyone has a slightly different story, or, and I and again, I, you know, it's memory and it was a painful time. And it was a long time ago. And it's quite common, as you say, with new organisations, you've got this big driving force, but then sometimes they're not the person to carry on leading an organisation once the first major thing is done, and, you know, they might not be great with people is, you know, having a skill to start and drive something is not the same as being a sort of manager of people and diplomats. And it's, yeah, it's quite often it's a painful process, certainly not unique, I think. Carlton Reid 11:16 No, it's very common for that kind of thing to happen. However, saying that it's very important to recognise who was that visionary? And I think he lost an awful lot of that. So, so wonderful to see John. central to that. So that's really nice part of the book because I, you know, John, John is a wonderful, wonderful guy, and absolutely, this would not have happened without him. I know, there's lots of other people you know, David Sproxton, all these kind of people were there at the same time, George Ferguson. So So Sproxton was Aardman Animation. So people who know admire animation, George Ferguson, Mayor of Bristol, at one point, all these individuals were there at the time, but it needed that guiding force that needed that. Just somebody who woulda just said no, and just went ahead and did it. That was that was the ethos of Sustrans in the early days. So that Laura Laker 12:12 Yeah, yeah, because the status quo then as it is, today, is very much stacked against cycling routes happening. And so you kind of need a rebel who's not willing, who's you know, not willing to take no for an answer? Who's going to be able to make things happen? And I think in a way that kind of, I guess, you know, being from a fairly well off upper middle class background, you have the confidence really the education that kind of gives you that confidence and and then the character and self belief to just to drive that forward. Carlton Reid 12:47 Mmm. That you didn't mention not even once Cycling, Touring Club CTC cycling UK. Because the book isn't in all cycling, you are you are laser focused on the National Cycle network. But there was also friction between those two organisations, you know, stranden effect was an upstart organisation, then it got for £42.5 million with Meatloaf handing that over on TV or that kind of stuff. And there was there was an awful lot of friction between still is between strands and and what is today cycling UK. So you haven't got into that at all. What Why didn't you go into that? Is that just because you wanted to just stay laser focused on the cycle network? Laura Laker 13:36 I mean, I mentioned that not everyone felt that Sustrans was being helpful because they felt that cycle route should be delivered by government and charities stepping in. And taking that role almost allows the government to say, well, you know, someone's doing it. Now. We don't need to get involved. But I mentioned the kind of tension between certain types of cyclists. I think I might quote to you, I think I've got you in the references on that. But I mean, I don't know if I just don't know how. I don't know. It's yeah, it's a tricky one. It's how much to include, and you always have to make these decisions, what to include and what not to include, and I guess I just didn't feel like that was a key part of the story at all. There was some thinking at the time around that but and I'm aware that there was tension and I know that Mark Strong for one who gets quite a mention in the book, talked about Sustrans being too successful and not successful enough in that, you know, they were doing this job notionally? No, they were doing a great job for with what they had and who they were and ie not the government and with not very much money but they were doing enough just to allow the government to just say, You know what, well Sustrans is delivering the National Cycle network, tick, job done. Let's get back to the serious business of roads. Carlton Reid 15:01 because there is there is you meant we will get on to the very positive points, you've got like a bunch of what what do you call it in the book where you've got a whole bunch of asks basically? Oh, yeah, the manifesto, the manifesto. There you go. Number one, we'll go through these points. 10 point manifesto. So there's some positive stuff to talk about that. But you don't really mention that there's this that, you know, you're talking about, you know, this should be funded nationally, and there is that struggle, bear with you know, this is a charity, etc, etc. But then you've also got the weakness of you have actually got to at least have British Cycling as well, three competing organisations, going to government and asking for money for various things. And wouldn't it be nicer and more practical and may even get more stuff? If there's only one organisation so there is that there is the absolute fault line running through cycling? That is one of the reasons why it's very easy for the government to not do stuff because they're getting told different things by different organisations and one organisation saying don't back them back us. So there's that kind of friction there. Laura Laker 16:22 I don't know if that's if I see it that way. I mean, Sustrans cycling UK, and British Cycling, and things like livable streets are all part of the walking and cycling Alliance. And I think what that what that's trying to do is to unify the voice, because ultimately they want the same thing. I mean, British cycling's coming at it from a sports point of view. But recognising that its members also need safe roads to cycle on. And that means a whole host of other things, safe protected routes in cities. And that's popular with members. And then cycling UK, originally a touring group, now a charity that lobbies for Safe Routes, safe conditions, and also delivers stuff for government, such as what to fix your ride, and a bunch of other things. And then Sustrans is a National Cycle network and behaviour change programmes. So there are overlaps, but I do think they are distinct. And I don't see I don't see it as I mean, they probably have internal, you know, perspectives on things and perhaps don't always agree with what the other one was doing. But I think I think they tend to present a fairly unified front these days. Carlton Reid 17:30 They're not as bad nowadays. I mean, it's when you get rid of it certainly did not get rid. That's the That's the wrong phrase. When individuals leave organisations, it can change because a new people come in, and you know, those alliances are, that's what you're just used to. But you know, before that alliance was put in place, they were cats and dogs, they were really hating on each other and slagging each other off to government as well. So that's why government was able to go up. This cycling is just mad look, these these, you know, what they, these three cats in a sack just fighting each other. Laura Laker 18:03 And then you saw, I mean, I think I talked about, you know, Malcolm Shepherd, who was the CEO after John Grimshaw. He went to ministers, and he was saying, why aren't we getting the funding we asked for? Or why are we getting taken seriously, I think was the question. And he was told, Well, you don't ask for enough money, basically. So they were thinking and perhaps this kind of historic infighting is also a function of the fact that these were kind of fledgling organisations to an extent for some time, not very much funding. They were run by enthusiasts probably, who all had their own ideas. And of course, let's not forget that there were also the vehicular ISTS who didn't even believe that we needed cycling's of which I think cycling UK early on was one and that might explain why they disagree with Sustrans who were trying to yes, no, there was a whole cohort who stands for that reason, absolutely. 100%. So maybe that, you know, it perhaps is a function of just the whole movement being in its infancy. I mean, it's been going for a good 40 or so years, but I don't know, maybe it was maybe it was just run by enthusiasts for a very long time. And that's why it's taken a while to kind of mature but also I think it was going I mean, our cycling lobby, organisations were kind of leading the way for much longer than a lot of European countries in a nice talk about this in the book in countries like France and in the Netherlands and in Denmark, they all started their calls for National Cycle networks or at least safe routes, thanks to charities and voluntary organisations. And then fairly quickly, were all taken on by the government who saw this as a piece of infrastructure firstly, quite often for leisure, but then they realised people were using these routes for commuting trips, and it was it needed to be part of the infrastructure and was taken up with great enthusiasm and in Sweden as well. By the various local departments and regional governments and delivered quite quickly and at quite a kind of scale. And that hasn't really happened here. And so perhaps those kinds of just the longevity of those cycling groups being so crucial to anything that happens for cycling, has kind of made this whole, I don't know, split more important than it would have otherwise been. Carlton Reid 20:24 Yeah. And like in the Netherlands, the the organization's tried to fight against this, but the government tax cyclists, and cyclists actually paid for the roads. Laura Laker 20:34 They did, that's right. Carlton Reid 20:37 But it's the very fact and this was a cyclist at the time were fighting against, they didn't want to be taxed. In the UK, and the Netherlands, they were taxed. And then cyclists became national infrastructure. And that became critical, as you say, and the fact that you know, there wasn't, there was some national infrastructure, obviously, I've done this the 1930 cycleways project. But the CTC is the British Cycling as of the time fought against all of this, they fought against taxation, they fought against cycle routes. And so there is there is some argument to be made that cyclists have been their own worst enemy. So I know in the book, you're saying, you know, it's just such a no brainer. And it is to back, you know, for want of a better word or phrase active travel. Now, in the book, you've got various people are saying we should call it something different. Laura Laker 21:27 Yeah, Lee Craigie. Carlton Reid 21:27 yeah. Yeah. But, you know, cycling has been difficult, at the same time. And it's like, what's happening in Wales, and in Scotland, is inspiring, possibly, because it's actually coming from above. A lot of it, you know, there's obviously enthusiastic people working on the ground, etc. But a lot of this is coming from government ministers. So that helps. Yeah. And, Laura Laker 21:54 I mean, we have this idea, and I'm sure we're not alone. And this point you just made and the example of the taxing of the cyclists in the Netherlands, which is something I learned during doing the research for the book, I didn't actually know about this, but I, you know, the reason we lost the railways that then became a lot of these greenways was because, you know, we see transport as needing to wash its own face needing to fund itself. And the railways at the time, were losing money for most of the routes. And so that was the reasoning. And, you know, with roads, obviously, drivers are taxed it's not sort of ring fence funding. It's not a road tax, it's, but you know, it is making the Treasury money and cycling has never really done that. And I, I think fundamentally, the way that way of thinking about transport is wrong, because of the benefits, the much wider benefits that transport gives us in terms of, you know, being able to access education and health and social opportunities and for our physical and mental health. And it's, its benefits span far beyond its own kind of silo. But we don't really see it that way. And I'm not really sure actually, if anywhere managers to think of it this way, but I think post pandemic, things like free bus services and in different countries has maybe illustrated that people are starting to think about it differently. But ultimately, I think it's it's a very tricky one. Because like you say, we in a way we weren't, we were own worst enemy in terms of our predecessors in the cycling world. But we were working within philosophy that's that dictated that actually, if you're going to build something, you know, who's making money from it, or, you know, how is the Treasury getting that investment back and not really seeing it as this makes people healthier? Or this gives them opportunities or promotes businesses, local tourism? And all of this? So yeah, I mean, if we'd done it differently, who who knows of cyclists in the UK? So fine, we'll pay a tax. Who knows? We might have an NCN now, but, and even today, it's a little bit of an uncomfortable conversation, isn't it? Because, you know, nobody wants to be taxed. Carlton Reid 24:02 So the book is, it's a polemic in many ways, not not all the way through. But there are definitely bits in there that are strident. And I cannot argue with at all I'm reading it nodding along. And certainly the bits about like the national infrastructure, right, and it's all being spent on roads. And it's it's the so many reasons why that is crazy. Yeah, and why spending even just a fraction of the roads budget on on a national cycle network, you know, genuinely joined up one high quality would bring many more, many more benefits. And then you've got and the irony is, and I did a new story on this is, you have a government minister, who has written the foreword to your book, and he said This is not government minister, a former government minister, a former Transport Minister, Jesse Norman, and then it's like, why don't you do this when you're in power? It's great. You've said it. It's wonderful that you're saying all these things. But you could have done this, you could have pushed for this. And he was also the Financial Secretary of the Treasury. Yeah, he could have released money. Yeah, let me see what he says. But Laura Laker 25:26 it's so difficult, isn't it? And it's, again, it's kind of facing it's the status quo. I mean, it's, I think, maybe important to remember, and I'm not making excuses for anyone. But, you know, he was a junior minister, certainly in his first round is cycling minister. And so he would have had to tow the party line. So I don't know how easy it is for. I mean, he's a very intelligent guy. He cares about cycling. But then he's part of a system, which ultimately, I guess, maintains the status quo doesn't want to upset the applecart. And that's why, in the manifesto, I, you know, I think it's so important that people speak up for these things, because I think until there's an outcry for it, it's very difficult for any one minister, unless we have a cycling Prime Minister, to change all of this. There's a lot of vested interests in maintaining, you know, roads for cars, keeping car manufacturing, going and, you know, taxation on cars is going to be very problematic, because obviously EVs electric vehicles don't pay, you know, drivers with EVs don't pay cortex. So what's gonna happen there? But yeah, I mean, it's difficult, but I think people need to speak up for this kind of thing. We get a lot of kickback pushback from people when there's cycle routes coming. But those are the minority. And one thing I tried to highlight in the book is that most people want this once cycling routes, they they want other options and to drive. And, you know, between two thirds and four fifths of people in representative polls say that they'd support this and many of them, even if it meant taking road space away from motor vehicles. But that's not what politicians listen to. And I think increasingly, politicians are listening to angry people on Twitter. And you know, if Mark Harper's comments about LTNs and 15 minute neighbourhoods is anything to go by, which was straight out of the kind of conspiracy theorists, Twitter playbook, you know, they're listening to the loudest voices. And I think until people say, you know, we actually want choice. We don't want to have to breathe polluted air, we don't want to have our neighbourhoods dominated by motor vehicles. We want our kids to be able to go to school safely. I think it's gonna be difficult for things to change. Carlton Reid 27:45 Hmm. So you have mentioned a variety of routes that are actually pretty good. So yeah, Keswick one is one of them. Laura Laker 27:55 Threlkeld, yes. Carlton Reid 27:58 And that's why I know, I know the route well, as good as now, you know, a cycleway there because that was that was long in gestation. But basically, it's it's it's, it's popular. You know, people say, oh, like, but that's a popular route now, isn't it? Laura Laker 28:15 Yeah, yeah, people drive there. And I mean, that was that was interesting for a number of reasons. I mean, incredibly beautiful. It sort of weaves through Greta gorge, which is just this kind of just this amazing landscape, this sort of rocky river which meanders through this very deep wooded valley. And it's on a former rail line. And it was, which storm was it was it 2015, there was a big storm, which basically crumbled a couple of the bridges with the sheer volume of water that ended up going through this narrow gorge. And then it was out of action for a couple of years. And that was an important, crucial route and a tourist attraction for local businesses. One pub owner apparently offered the local council, I think it was the national parks something like 30 grand out of his own pocket, reopened the route, but it was actually a sort of 2 million pound job. So that wasn't going to go all the way. But you know, this was a really important tourist attraction for people and people drive there because there aren't safe routes to get to and from the ends, so people drive and park and then cycle along it and cycle back. But yeah, it's popular, it's really popular. And they when they put the bridges, the new bridges in Sustrans with various parts of funding, they resurfaced it and there was a big hoo ha about putting tarmac on instead of the gravel that had been there before. But that actually opened up it up to far more people, including people who use wheelchairs and mobility scooters, because any sort of rough surface or uneven ground can tip someone in a wheelchair and it effectively makes these routes unusable. And this is something that I really learned in the book and feel very strongly about now. And there was a big outcry nationally about tarmacking this path because it's in the Lake District and everyone's He has an opinion about the Lake District even if they've just been there once and we all feel like we own it because it's such a beautiful place and I guess rightly so. We all care about it. Carlton Reid 30:07 The Lakers. Laura Laker 30:09 Lakers, my people. Yeah. The people who holidayed in the lakes were known as the Lakers. Yeah, which is brilliant. So yeah, they, you know, they held their ground and they tarmac it and you know, the numbers increased drastically. And this story plays out all over the country, wherever there's a improve surface on a path. Suddenly, it's open to everyone. And this is what this is what cycle rich should be in, in my opinion, it should be open to everyone. Carlton Reid 30:37 Yeah, it's like the cinder path. That's the Sustrans route national cycling group from from Whitby to Scarborough. That was the one that had a load of of people complaining because Cinder path you know, they were going to be tarmacking just parts of it. And lots of people are saying you know but this this this will you know, destroy it or whenever lots of yobs in and it just never got done. And then it's it's impossible for a lot of the year because it's just it gets just too rutted into mud into too horrible. And this is, you know, we discard it would just be so easy. You know, between these two conurbations and small conurbations, if you could ride there on an all year round an all weather path? Laura Laker 31:21 So yeah, I do. I do worry about this, because it's, you know, they say it's an effect gentrification. And you're you're bringing, you know, urban into the countryside yet. There's roads everywhere, and they got tarmac on, and nobody seems to be kicking up a fuss there. What's What's your problem? Yeah, I know. And I think it's just we have this idea about what the cycle routes should be or could be, and we see them as leisure routes quite a lot of the time, we have this kind of set idea about cycling, that it's not, you know, it's not a commuter option, or, but you know, it is, but it goes beyond that. And it is about who can access these parts. And quite often, having an uneven surface will lock a lot of people out. And you know, we're an ageing population in this country. And as we get older, we will all have disabilities, and mobility issues. And it shouldn't be that you know, these paths are any open to a few people. But yeah, it's a difficult one. And we would like to say we've never think twice about it for roads, we've never think about having a road as a dirt path. And I can you know, visually tarmac is not a beautiful thing, but I think if people understood that actually, it's it's not just about the visuals. This is about people and this is what these parts are for they're for people. Carlton Reid 32:34 Well you can make if you want it to be just that colour, you can make the the asphalt you can you can you can dye the asphalt. So it's it's more expensive. But you can you can do all sorts of treatments you can do to make it all weather doesn't have to look, you know, black. Yeah. So anyway, so let's go to another assessment. That's some negative ones. Where they tried to be certain, but then you point out the Polgate one, between Polgate and Glynde, which is almost happened to you by by mistake. Not mistake, but it's certainly a by accident. Yeah. And you're talking about it being just brilliant. So describe that one. Laura Laker 33:11 That's amazing. Yeah. So I was told about this. And then I know someone who lives in Lewis, which is at one end of it. And so we we we met at the station and cycled along this path. And so it's beside the A27, which is a national highways road. And it's right by the sales downs, which is hugely popular with cyclists. And basically, there were so many people cycling on this incredibly terrifying road. It's one of those narrow and winding A roads with huge volumes of traffic. I mean, I went on a walking trip near Louis the other day, and I had to cross it with no crossing and it was it was genuinely terrifying. I can't imagine people cycling on it, because it's, you know, six months. So yeah, anyway, people were being held up in their cars because of people cycling. And so national highways decided it was going to build a path alongside and it's this this was a real eye opener for me because they had done what needs to happen around the country. They had built a path behind the hedge row, which is wide and tarmac and smooze with lots of planting and culverts and bridges over rivers and and they just laid it you know, very little problem. I don't know if they owned the land or perhaps compulsory purchase probably a mixture of I think it was a mixture of both. And so they built this amazing kind of 10 kilometre joyful route, which is just you know, it's just like a road. It's like no stress. You just carry on. There was someone on the mobility scooter the day I was there, a couple of people on bikes, but it was basically hadn't opened yet. And yeah, it was just there. But it's quite funny because at either end, it just stopped because then that's the local councils job to kind of deliver it beyond. But you know, it shows what's possible if you have a national body with the power and the funding, and they have, you know, multi year funding pots which helps plan and deliver this stuff and they just did it, they just sort of swept aside all of the normal problems that I talked about in the book that usually dog these cycle routes. And yeah, it's quite, it was quite marvellous, quite Carlton Reid 35:11 I found it fascinating because one of the things you say is, as we just mentioned there, it, it was an effective bill to get the cyclists off the road. We made enough nuisance of ourselves, that is 1930s to a tee, you know, the transport, you know, built those 500 miles of cycle tracks in the 1930s to Dutch standards laced around the country. Some of them weren't brilliant, but some of them were amazing, you know, 12 foot wide Dutch Dutch level, concrete curbs, you know, perfectly brilliant bits of cycling infrastructure that are now just some of them are white elephants, because they didn't link up to anywhere. But, you know, the government at the time said, Oh, we're doing this for the safety. No, they weren't they were doing it to you know, get cyclists on the road because we're slowing down motorists, but you kind of almost don't care if if if you get a really superlative route behind the hedgerows. Yeah. Okay. It's such a difference. Yeah. That's the difference. It's got to be good. You can't just fob you off with shared route pavement, which is what yeah, the criticism of Sustrans has been is like there's so many shared route pavement. And that's why Sustrans got a bad rap, even though it wasn't their fault. And they were just trying to fill in the gaps. Laura Laker 36:28 That yeah, yeah. And yeah, they just have to use whatever was there, which was quite often a pavement along what would have been a not too busy road in the 70s or 80s. But it's now a sort of thundering highway and being on a pavement with no barrier between you and or no, no sort of space between you and the 60 mile an hour traffic is far from pleasant, and no, no, no parent is going to choose to cycle on that. If they have any other choice, you know, they're going to avoid that like the plague because you know, one little wobble or mistake and then you know, it's horrific there, you know, possible outcomes. But yeah, it's you know, it's, it's fantastic. Because you don't even barely know the roads there. It's just cool. It's just gorgeous. I'd like to go back actually, because it's been a good year, I think since I saw it. At least actually. Maybe Yeah, I think it's at least a year and yeah, let's see how the trees are bedding in and because it was brand new at the time it just been done. But yeah, it is. Ultimately it is possible. And regardless of the motivations it just goes to show what's possible. I liked recently because Andy Streets and his Walking and Cycling Commissioner Adam Tranter he's on my podcast. They announced they're going to deliver the HS2 cycleway alongside in and around HS2 between Coventry and Birmingham. And when they get to Kenilworth, they're basically connecting up to one of their 1930 cycleways into Coventry. So I quite like that, you know, it's sort of linking something that's already there. And Carlton Reid 38:01 yeah, and that's also a John Grimshaw project, wasn't it? That was that was a John Grimshaw. Laura Laker 38:05 Yeah. He cycled the whole thing. Yes. Yes, he's been he's been trying to get that one, you know, for a lot for a long time. And yeah, it does stand alone. No, you need really, you need the HS2, of course, just stand alone without it. Carlton Reid 38:21 It does. Yeah, saying that, it would have absolutely been put in at the same time, that would not have been the difference. So that is point three. So in your 10 Point manifesto, that's basically work together a behind the hedgeroq Act, compulsory purchase orders, all these kinds of things that only government can do. Yeah. needs to be brought in into play. Yeah. And then you you've said and it's very ambitious. But when you think about it's like, yeah, you could do this easily. And that is you know, if if this was done and if money was provided, and compulsory purchase orders were put in like you would do for roads, you can have an unbelievably fantastic truly superlative national cycling in four years. Laura Laker 39:02 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Brian Deegan active travel England reckoned reckoned on this, because, you know, they have such a huge amount of power and to take go to build a cycle, which basically takes three years generally you do you have a year to kind of plan it a year to consult and tweak and then a year to build it. And for that you need multi year funding, because without that, you can't plan anything, basically. And that's why we've ended up bits and bobs of improvements, because it's like, you get the money, you have to spend it pretty much immediately. But yeah, I mean, the amount of funding a body like national highways has would be enough to you know, link these existing routes. Sometimes there are quiet roads, you know, I guess, in the Netherlands, you have through roads and access roads, things like low traffic neighbourhoods, in the countryside. That is a that is a kind of measure that you can do. And some of it it doesn't all have to be Are these sort of high quality pieces of massive engineering cycle routes, either behind the hedge row or on main roads? Some of it can just be tweaking kind of existing infrastructure so that it's not not every road as a through road. But yes, it's some it's amazing. And I kind of did a double take when I heard this. But when we put our mind to something, it's amazing what's possible. Carlton Reid 40:24 And potentially, we will see the fruits of this in Scotland, and Wales, Scotland, Wales are putting in some really ambitious stuff. And Mark Drakeford going, you know, will they backtrack on the 20 mile limit? And will they, you know, reverse a lot of stuff that Lee Waters that all this kind of stuff is potentially up in the air? We don't know yet. Yeah. But Scotland does seem to be, you know, putting their money where their mouth is, you know, that the amount of money that's going in there, per head, dwarfs what we see here in England. So the potentially you've got, you've got like, in five years, you could have something incredible. In Scottish cities in Glasgow. Yeah. You're talking about Glasgow? Laura Laker 41:09 Yeah. And yeah, Glasgow was amazing. I mean, that was the first time I'd been to Glasgow, on that trip. And I was blown away, actually. So they're developing a city wide network of routes, they're lowering in bridges across, they've got this very kind of, I guess, I guess they had this, at the time, they were building roads, they had a very ambitious programme of building like highways. And maybe that's about the culture of the city that when something comes along, when an idea comes along, they kind of embrace it. Whereas Edinburgh has historically been much more conservative. And so when, when highways when sort of urban highways came along the bond level load of those, and now cycling is seen as this big sort of saviour of health and climates and all of these important things, they're going all out on cycle routes, which is fantastic. And yeah, I was really blown away by what they're doing really high quality protected routes with planting alongside, you know, for extreme weather, it's really important to have permeable and green planting on tarmac. And, yeah, and these beautiful bridges and this massive bridge that I saw, and you know, they're really, really ambitious, I think, I've got a piece coming out about Edinburgh in the next week or so. And it talks about the difficulties that Edinburgh has faced very, very different than the city very conservative. But similarly, it's had a huge amount of funding. And I think they're finally getting to the tipping point there where they're starting to deliver real change, you know, hopefully. But yeah, it's, you know, the money's there, I think there's still difficulties with politics. So they've got these active freeways, which would be a kind of National Cycle network for Scotland, these rural routes, you know, the plan is there, or at least the idea is there, but it's not being rolled out yet. So who knows what's going to happen with that, but definitely, the funding and having that long term funding does make it much easier. I'd really love to see Scotland, you know, doing big things. And I think Scotland and Wales have been very, very forward thinking and a lot of things got maybe Scotland particularly, and more consistently than Wales, because as you say, there's a bit of a question mark. Now over Wales, they've, you know, they had the active travel act, they arguably took term coined the phrase active travel with the active travel act about a decade ago. And yeah, but stuff, you know, they have the policy, they had the money, but again, it's very, very slow to change. And I don't know, maybe they maybe if Westminster were a bit more proactive and supportive, it will be easier, who knows, but you're always going to come up against these kinds of difficulties, local politics and stuff, but I think money talks, you know, the money's there for it local investment, which Council isn't going to want public realm improvements, and you know, health. Carlton Reid 43:49 Money is number one, in your manifesto, so it's funded, and okay, we get the money from it. Here's what you say, stop expanding road capacity, and we have delivered a comprehensive network of cycling and walking routes. Hallelujah. Yeah, exactly. It's just like, you know, we've got so many roads, why can't we have more and more and more and more, as we know, it just fills up with traffic if we're gonna have build it and they will come Okay, let's do it for bikes. Now. You know, roads have had eighty years of this, let's have 10 years for for bikes, but walking and . It's just, it's a no brainer. And the LTNs thing kind of like it's so frustrating. Because we're only talking like a few streets. We're not we're not talking. That's when you hear you know, the the shock jocks you'd think is every single road in the country is going to be catered and you're going to hand it to cyclists. That's, that's how it's portrayed. And we're actually you know, maybe maybe a fraction of 1% of roads. really, genuinely is all too Talking about is currently got anyway. Yeah, having safe cycle routes, you know, don't get it get blown up by us people like us journalists, Laura, we're to blame for misrepresenting this. That's that's, that doesn't say good things about our profession, does it? Laura Laker 45:22 No. And I think I think I mean, it speaks to the kind of economics of journalism that, you know, people want eyeballs on stories nowadays because it's that's what makes advertising revenue funding for journalism is fallen off a cliff. And I think this is sort of desperation about the industry at the moment. But, you know, I think it's important to remember that the people shouting against this stuff are a minority, and most people want this stuff or are willing to try it and see, and most of us want quiet, safe streets, we want our kids to be able to play out in safety, we want clean air, we want, you know, peace and quiet. And I think because we haven't seen it, a lot of cases, it's difficult to imagine. But you know, ultimately, these things happen. There's, there's a pushback from a handful of people who are noisy, but I think if we have conversations about, you know, what we could, what we could get from these improvements from these schemes, then it's much positive way of talking about it. Of course, that's not how news works. And I think that's why we need leaders who are willing to sort of look beyond that short period in which a lot of journalists are shouting, and a few people, some of whom have genuine concerns and need to be listened to a shouting and listen to them. But you know, this is something that people want actually, and, you know, the benefits so enormous. Once it's happened, I don't think people would want to go back. Carlton Reid 46:46 Yeah, this is the thing. It's like, a good example is Northumberland Street and Newcastle, which is a pedestrianised street used to be the A1, you know, really the central state through the centre of Newcastle. It's I think, outside of central London, Mayfair on Oxford Street. It's the highest grossing per square foot retail zone in the country, because it was pedestrianised. And it just made it easier. And nobody in their right mind would say, we need to make that the a one again, guys, you know, let's get the cars and buses soaring and you just wouldn't do it. But Newcastle spent the best part of 20 years doing this, it wasn't an overnight thing. We had to spend a long time, a lot of angst getting it done, but nobody would wish it away now. And that's what when we're not getting with all these LTNs and all these cycles, if only if we put them in, nobody would complain about them. Not really not once they see it, it's just if people don't like change. Laura Laker 47:47 yeah, none of us like change just a thing. And it's hard to picture. And I think it's easy to dismiss people's concerns. Because you know, it's normal for us not to want change, it's normal to be concerned about something if you can't picture it. And you're, you know, many of these are genuine worries about businesses, and how will I get from A to B and, and all of this, but yeah, I think what's been lacking in this conversation is just some sort of grown up honesty about, you know, this is going to be a change. But ultimately, it's going to be one that's positive for these reasons. We, you know, we are going to listen, but ultimately, this is a an agenda that most of us support. And we know it's beneficial for these reasons. And I think we've I don't know, I think there's too much government in this country, and in many English speaking countries, kind of almost government by fear of what the Daily Mail might say, in response to this policy. And even the the recent announcement by governments about you know, stopping anti motorist measures was all caps. You know, it was like almost a Daily Mail headline. Carlton Reid 48:52 Yeah, it's quite scary and sad. Yeah. But then, you know, like you say, if you know, for the ones that hold their ground, you know, stuff dies down, people say actually, that actually is much better. So you know, where I'm coming from, I know where you're coming from. And you're saying people want this, but I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and say, Well, no, they don't people want to drive around. And if you're a woman at night, and you describe a lot of the routes, the Sustrans routes, the Nationals, you wouldn't want to go there at night, and probably no matter how much lighting security whatever you put in, you probably would still feel that way. In. Yeah, yeah. On a bicycle, you're not protected. Whereas a car, a woman, a single woman can get into a car can lock the door, can maybe have, you know, dark windscreen even so nobody knows who's in there. You then become this powerful individual who can get around in safety at the end of the day. But bicycles aren't like that, Laura. So you're you're basically making it more insecure for women to go about as independent beings. Laura Laker 50:11 Well, so as a as a woman who cycles on her own at nights that that route from Arnhem to Nijmergen in the in the Netherlands, so I ended up leaving that event and it was dark and cycling home on my own however far it was, it's a good hours ride along these routes, but because you don't have to stop, you actually feel safe. It's only when you have to stop that you start to feel unsafe in my experience. I mean, there's certain routes like along the canal, I live in East London, along the Li River that I have cycled at night, but wouldn't do now. Because you know, that is very isolated. And people have been known to jump out with bushes. But I think for the large part, if they're well designed, and other people are using them, then cycling at night for me isn't a problem. You know, you're moving you're Yeah, I don't Yeah, I very rarely felt in danger of cycling through London at night, for example. I mean, it's been the odd park where I felt a bit sketchy, but I think if you design them, well, not every path is going to feel that way safe at night. But I think in urban places where a lot of people will be cycling to and from at night, it will probably be fine. I mean, you probably feel quite safe. It's about kind of eyes on the streets in a way having people they're with you. Yeah, and I think if a route were well used enough, and don't forget, you know, if you're, if you're, you know, you're not going to necessarily, you're not going to drive home after a night out if you've had a drink. And so you will have to sort of walk a section of your journey. Most likely, if you're in a place like London, you hate taking public transport, maybe you take a taxi, but I feel I don't feel like if I'm on a busy road, walking alone at night that I am safe with those other people around me because I don't feel like people who are driving through again to necessarily stop and help me if something did happen. So I think kind of busy streets can feel unsafe, even though they're very highly populated. And, you know, theoretically, and this kind of, there's been research on this, you know, people who live on quiet streets, no more of their neighbours, this sort of social safety element, and people start looking out for each other. Whereas if you have a traffic dominated environment, it's people tend to turn away from the street. Carlton Reid 52:28 Yeah, I don't disagree. But if it is looking at the motivation of many, many people, I mean, humans are generally lazy. Yeah. They generally want comfort. They want their own things, and they want security, all of those things you have in spades in cars. The downside is, because everybody wants that. And everybody's in a car, it means you don't get anywhere. Unknown Speaker 52:57 Yeah, I don't think that's a whole story. I mean, I think a lot of the time people drive because the alternative is either aren't there don't feel possible, or they don't feel safe. So cycling on the road wouldn't feel safe, you wouldn't even most people wouldn't even consider it. But we've seen I grew up in rural West Somerset, and you had to learn to drive as soon as you turn 17, you would take your test, you buy a car, and you drive everywhere, because the buses mean the buses are even worse. Now. They were okay at the time, but not great. But they just took longer, and you couldn't get everywhere you needed to go my friends as a teenager lived in variable kind of communities. And so you had to drive there was just no other option I would have loved to cycle. And you've seen in London, where we've got a growing network of roots, suddenly, all these people from all walks of life, all kinds of demographics. Laura Laker 53:48 genders, you see a much better one gender split, but also all types of people cycling. And that kind of speaks to the fact that actually, people do want to do this and they may want to convenience but they also want to enjoy their journey. They also want to save money. Cycling can be incredibly convenient, no parking worries, it's so much cheaper you know you don't have to stress of finding a parking space or you know, paying vast amounts of money. I think something like I forget the number who in transport poverty in this country because of cars basically. They spend something like 19% of their income on their car with finance lorry, using facts to convince me that's Carlton Reid 54:36 Anybody can convince with facts, come on. At that juncture, I'd like to go across to my colleague David in America. Take it away, David. David Bernstein 54:45 This podcast is brought to you by Tern Bicycles. Like you, the folks at Tern are always up for a good outdoor adventure by bike—whether that's fishing, camping, or taking a quick detour to hit the trails before picking Unknown Speaker 55:00 up the kids from school. And if you're looking to explore new ground by taking your adventures further into the wild, they've got you covered. The brand new Orox by Tern is an all-season, all-terrain adventure cargo bike that's built around the Bosch Smart System to help you cross even the most ambitious itinerary off your bucket list. It combines the fun of off-road riding in any season with some serious cargo capacity, so you can bring everything you need—wherever you go, whenever you go. Plus, it's certified tough and tested for safety so your adventures are worry-free. With two frame sizes to choose from and a cockpit that's tested to support riders of different sizes, finding an adventure bike that fits you and your everyday needs has never been easier with the Orox. Visit www.ternbicycles.com/orox (that's O-R-O-X) to learn more. Carlton Reid 56:04 Thanks, David. And we are back with Laura Laker the Laker people. And she's the author of potholes and pavements a bumpy ride on Britain's National Cycle network. It's not actually out yet, isn't Laura. It's actually middle middle of the next month, middle of night. Hmm. Yeah. So you having a launch day what you're doing? Laura Laker 56:28 Yeah, I've got some. You've got like, You got speaker a bank and tell us tell us what you're doing? Yeah, so I've got I'm having like a bit of a party for some friends and family. And then I've got a talk in Stanford's in Covent Garden. I'm speaking in Parliament. But I think that's more of a parliamentary event. And I have got an event at Stanfords in Bristol with Xavier Bryce, we're going to discuss the future of the NCN. I've got one I'm speaking in Oxford, at a bookshop. I'm going to be interviewed by Emily Kerr, who's a green Councillor there. I have got a there's a literary festival in Wantage in November. And we're looking at other events as we speak. Carlton Reid 57:16 Excellent. And this is two hundred and .... All right, I'm going to deliver the end of the book. We're talking 264 pages, and then you've got references back. I mean, one of them. Thank you very much. Laura Laker 57:32 Yeah. Carlton Reid 57:34 Thanks. as well. Yes, at the back there, but there's, there's lots in this. So who's gonna be? Who's your audience? Who's gonna be reading this? Who do you think will be reading this? And what might actually could it start something big with with in politics? Can we could we get this like your manifesto? Can it get out there? What do you hope to happen with your book? Laura Laker 58:00 Yeah, well, obviously, I want everyone to read it. I mean, my editor at Bloomsbury was saying, you know, it's probably going to be cycling enthusiasts, people who I guess already, maybe listen to your podcast, my podcast, read our articles about cycling. But I would like to think that you know, these people, these two thirds to four fifths of people who want more cycling people who think, you know, why do I have to drive everywhere? Why aren't there safe cycle routes? Why can't my kids cycle to school, and see that might see this book and think, Oh, this is going to tell that story, this is going to explain it to me. And so I hope that it's going to give people a sense of kind of why we are where we're at, with the history of the NCN and the stories, but also, you know, how wonderful it could be if we had this thing, this network of connected routes, if it were possible for all of these people who say they want to cycle and more who maybe don't even know they want to cycle could do so. And I hope that, you know, my perhaps naive hope is that people will read it and think, you know, this could be such a wonderful thing, why aren't we doing it? And how can we get it to happen and I hope policymakers you know, we've got an election coming up I think this speaks to you know, forget the culture wars. I think this speaks to all sides, you know, of politics, I think, you know, individual freedom and choice is a conservative value, right? Cycling, cycling delivers on that. Carlton Reid 59:26 Cycling is so libertarian is a form of transport I've had many conversations This is freedom. Why is this left wing? Why do people always assume it's just this thing? Laura Laker 59:42 Yeah, it's become a cultural thing. And it's only for I think, you know, certain factions of the right perhaps see this as a wedge issue. And a way of you know, rallying people around them on based on kind of outrage like false outrage really, untruthes. and you You know, in terms of the left, this is, you know, great value for money, the Labour Party is very, very keen on showing they're working and proving to people that they can be trusted with the economy. It delivers on the green agenda, it's so beneficial in terms of cutting carbon emissions, it delivers on health, pretty much every department that we can think of this offers people access to work, you know, so many people who are out of work, especially in rural communities can't even afford to go and find work or stay in a job because the transport is too expensive, or it's too patchy doesn't go in and they needed to go. So there's like barely a thing that this doesn't touch. And I really hope that you know, along with kind of griping, which is, I hope not too much of the book, and the polemic side that this shows actually, you know, this is great for tourism, this is great for our mental health. This can bring us together, you know, it's about in Scotland, I saw that a cycle route can be a linear park, it can be about artwork and community. It can bring people together from different walks of life around a space. And, you know, cycling delivers on these things. And, you know, if we kind of dropped the culture was narrative, which is nonsense. You know, we could see all of these benefits fairly quickly and for very little money, and have a far better country for it. Carlton Reid 1:01:18 Many people would baulk at having Boris Johnson back. And you do mention this in the book of what he and Andrew Gilligan were able to do. Hopefully, it doesn't seem like I want him back. But will it that that is what you need. I mean, you do talk about having a cycling Prime Minister, we had a cycling Prime Minister, we had a Prime Minister who said it was me a golden age for cycling. So we need we need him back. Laura, that we just we need we need Boris back. No, we don't like that back there. Are there other other politicians are available? We just need people to believe in it. And you know, I hope that people read the book and think, actually, this is something we can believe in, but don't need one of the good things about Boris Johnson. Not only did he you know, talk, the talk, walk the talk, all that kind of stuff. But he was right wing. So he could he just instantly takes away that that part of this oversight is a left wing things like well, here's this right wing politician who's pushing for this Andrew Gilligan, Telegraph writer. These are not left wing people in any way, shape, or form. So is that what we need we actually need and then we'd like all politicians to do this, but by the same thing, you need somebody almost on the opposite side to be doing this, they've got more chance of pushing this through. So that's why Boris Johnson did so well, because he was right wing and the Mail isn't gonna, you know, rail against what Boris Johnson was doing. They never did. Laura Laker 1:02:46 They did though. They did. They totally did. I don't think they discriminated against him because he was towards their political leanings. I mean, it's unlikely we're going to have another conservative government, right, when we've got the election coming up, it's going to be Labour by all likelihood. And so they're going to be the ones in power delivering. So I don't know, Carlton Reid 1:03:09 But they backtracked over their green policies. I mean, what hope do we have? Laura Laker 1:03:12 I know I know. I know it's incredibly disappointing. And the thing is this this stuff like the green agenda, more broadly investment in insulating homes, for example, is such great return on investment and if they're thinking about finances and showing they're working insulating homes is just a total no brainer. You know, we all pay far too much for our energy bills. We live in draughty leaky homes. So many houses are mouldy because of the cold walls are damp Yeah, I just think you know, and green technology, huge growth industry. Solar and wind where you know, we're windy little island, but a lot of coastline. Offshore wind is fantastic. Carlton Reid 1:03:55 But in your in the book, you show how national highways basically is an organisation set up to build roads. And once you've done something like that, and that's their raison d'etre. Guess what they're going to build roads. Yeah. So yeah, it's that oil tanker you know having to put the brakes on and change a whole culture so we're not talking about you know, Cuz your manifesto is saying you know, stop funding this and yeah. Laura Laker 1:04:28 Wales did this basically with their no more roads or no more roads and less they increased active travel and public transport policy. They basically have kind of repurpose their national highways body around this agenda, you know, fill in the potholes. We've got a road in a dreadful state and, you know, develop use all their skills and power and funding for active travel. You know, public transport in this country is drastically underfunded. Buses are so important, especially in rural areas, especially people on low incomes, especially for women and Do you know buses are so important? We're really, really not kind of reaping the power the massive power of the bus.? Carlton Reid 1:05:08 Yeah, that's in your book as well, because you're talking about how buses, you know, need to be able to carry bikes. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's a small part of what they could do but the broader transport perspective that's that's so impor

In this episode, host Dr. JPB Gerald talks to his friend and fellow podcaster Sara Levine about her home, Long Island, which he hates. And also plane crashes Pre-order Dr. Gerald's second book here! Here is the AI generated summary btw, lol: JPB Gerald and Unknown Speaker discussed the unexpected ways podcasts have helped them form meaningful connections with others. They shared personal experiences of meeting friends through podcasts and highlighted the unique opportunity podcasts provide for people to connect with others who share similar interests and experiences, even if they are geographically distant. Later, JPB Gerald and Speaker 2 discussed their experiences and perspectives on housing, segregation, and community in the New York City area. They acknowledged that segregation is a complex issue influenced by factors such as affordability, transportation, and cultural differences, and offered contrasting views on the advantages and disadvantages of attending small high schools and colleges. They also engaged in a conversation about their fascination with true crime stories and plane crashes, sharing personal experiences and insights. Finally, JPB Gerald and Speaker 2 discussed airplane safety and security, highlighting the importance of security measures such as locked cockpit doors and the absence of weapons on planes.

15th April 2024 The Spokesmen Cycling Podcast EPISODE 351: Andy McGrath — God is Dead SPONSOR: Tern Bicycles HOST: Carlton Reid GUEST: Andy McGrath LINKS: https://www.the-spokesmen.com/ https://www.ternbicycles.com https://twitter.com/CarltonReid https://twitter.com/Andymcgra https://andydoesart.substack.com https://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Dead-Vandenbroucke-Cyclings-Wasted/dp/0552176044/ TRANSCRIPT Carlton Reid 0:12 Welcome to Episode 351 of the Spokesmen cycling podcast. This show was engineered on Monday, April 15 2024. David Bernstein 0:28 The Spokesmen cycling roundtable podcast is brought to you by Tern bicycles. The good people at Tern are committed to building bikes that are useful enough to ride every day and dependable enough to carry the people you love. In other words, they make the kind of bikes that they want to ride. Tern has e-bikes for every type of rider. Whether you're commuting, taking your kids to school or even carrying another adult, visit www.ternbicycles.com. That's t e r n bicycles.com to learn more. Carlton Reid 1:04 I'm Carlton Reid. And today's show is the first of two episodes with bike book authors. Later this week, I'll share the chat I had with potholes and pavement author Laura Laker a book so fresh, it's not even out yet. But today, I talk with William Hill award winning author Andy McGrath about his 2022 book, God is dead biography of Frank Vandenbrouke the wunderkind who died a mysterious death in a grungy African hotel room. Liège–Bastogne–Liège has been staged since 1892, the oldest of cycling's five monument races, and this year's race will be staged at the end of the month, Sunday the 21st to be exact. Now, Andy, it's 25 years since a certain famous victory of that particular race. So tell us about that. Andy McGrath 2:10 This was the edition of Liège–Bastogne–Liège where the great Belgian cycling hope Frank Vandenbrouke seemed to be fulfilling his immense potential. And he did it in his own unique way. He told anyone that would listen in the days for the race, you know, teammates, DS's, rivals and other races and media, where he was going to attack to win the race to make it stick, a bit like Muhammad Ali used to do before his heavyweight fight. And he'd went out for a 20 minute puto, a few days before the age best on the age. And it's covered his teammate saw him come back to the hotel, you know, barely a blink of an eye later. And he told him, that's all all I need, I feel good. I'm going to win lift some of the age. And he was in a state of grace that day, he attacked on by ODU, which sounds different course back then. It finished in an industrial suburb over the age. And the Cordilla. Redo was about oh, at 90k from the finish. And he, he he wrote up in the big room, he tacked up in the big green, which is I could barely walk up it when I was researching the book, which is a astonishing and slightly sinister thing when you really get into that era of cycling. And he was already clearly the best, you know, he he accelerated pass the defending champion makayley Bartley like it was nothing and then he just let the rest catch him up, basically. And he did attack, you know, if we're going to split hairs slightly later than he said he would you know, or maybe earlier actually, I think it was early. And he said he would you know, a few 100 metres earlier. Because Carlton Reid 3:55 Because that's in your book, isn't it? Yeah. It's a very detailed book and you you're knocking on doors, and you give the exact door that he actually did attack on and not the one that you said he's going to attack on? Andy McGrath 4:06 Yeah, the thing is, I actually knocked on the door of the house number he said he would attack which was 256. You know, hoping for some kind of journalistic intrigue and it was a little bit disappointing that I think people that answered the door were very nice, but it was someone looking after their elderly parent and they said they didn't like cycling, they didn't know about it. So so so I was like yeah, that's there's that avenue gone in the book. But no abandoned Brook road away from the last remaining rival Michael Burgard on the court to send Nicola outside the edge and road to victory just like he said he would and you know, a country that was already in thrall to him was an even more rapturous, you know, Eddie Merckx was extremely impressed. You know, the Eddie marks the greatest and that was really, I think it was 24 Back then van of work, and it wasn't so normal for providers to break through in their early 20s, which is what he had done. He was the exception. And it seemed like that, you know, the cycling world was gonna fall to him. You know. During the book research, I kind of ascertained that he could probably have won almost anything apart from a grantor, you know, he was a strong climber, but didn't have the consistency or the or the mentality to do it over three weeks, but everything else was, was fair game. But that was a very brief high point, you know, that was that was paradise. And he was soon into purgatory. And then how, you know, within a year, which kind of summed up his his life and his career trajectory. Carlton Reid 5:41 And, and spoiler alert, the kind of the title of your book tells us that Frank is no longer with us. But you did refer a few moments ago, almost to the fact that this is an EPO era. So he's going up in the big ring, that's kind of Superman stuff that, you know, Nietzsche, God is dead stuff. So clearly he was he was deeping, he kind of admitted he was doping. This is the EPO era. But then what everybody was saying at that time was, well, everybody was doping. So we're all equal. Do you buy into that? Are you if everybody's taken EPO at the time, and he's such a wonderful rider? Let's give him those victories, because everybody was on this stuff. person. Andy McGrath 6:27 I mean, they're all saying at the time, and I was partly what bothered him, you know, 5, 10 years later that he felt that he was being scapegoated. What we know now, is that essentially, you know, let's be the what's the word diplomatic here? Legally, most of the bunch, we're, we're doing it, there's been lots of admissions. Do I think that makes it okay, in a level playing field? No, no, I don't think so. That's too simplistic, you know, that comes down to you know, things like science and natural amount of creates and how much room you have to dope, you know, or to get up to the rudimentary UCI testing limit of 50, which it was back then, you know, which was, like a broken speed Camry on a motorway. It barely stopped cheating. If you are caught over the 50, like, image credit limit you are. I think you were given a small fine, and you couldn't race for two weeks? What kind of, you know, what kind of punishment? Is that really what kind of thing to stop? Anyone from having huge gains, really, that can change, change everything? So no, no, it wasn't fair. Like it's not fair. And there are a fair few riders who were probably in, in the minority who chose to be clean, you know, to ride on bread and water, as they say, who didn't make it who had to take other jobs who. And that was the kind of that's always a sad thing about doping in a way, you know, that. I don't think anyone who's has a positive for doping, who's cheated. When they get into cycling, they don't want to put a needle in their arm or have their blood transfused or whatever kind of ghoulish thing hopefully went on, doesn't go on now. But along the line they get, they get sucked into certain culture and you know, you invest so much time and energy and sacrifice into something you love, and you have to love it. That you realise, well, this is the kind of Faustian deal that many of them thought I had to make that they thought that they didn't do this, they would finish in the last group or second class group and they wouldn't, they wouldn't get the contract renewed. They wouldn't even be close to winning, you know, to fulfilling their childhood dreams. And you have an abrupt turn turn pro in 1994, which was really probably the worst the worst possible year to turn pro maybe in cycling, because EPO was, that was the year that it was about to get ramped, and if it wasn't already ramping. Carlton Reid 9:00 And then Cofidis wasn't exactly the cleanest of teams. Andy McGrath 9:04 No. I mean, this is Vandenbrouke. He was on Mapei who were the Italian super team. You may see their products in your local homeware stores you know, they still make I think it's grouting Yeah, ground tiles, tile, yes. tiles. things are still popular. I still smile when I see them and and b&q and all other good stores, but they were the best number one, and they really complimented in hindsight, complimented Vandenbrouke perfectly because often, you know, in in the classics of old classics, he won and he won a fair few, you know, scale the price hit Volk, obviously Liège–Bastogne–Liège. He could be the attacking foil or tactically to say Tom Steels, a sprinter or Johan Museuw, who was a permanent cobbles rider. But anyway, after three, four years, which were the most stable, far and away the most stable years, results wise and maybe mentality wise over his whole career. He has acted in he he wanted to be a contract. He wasn't ever patient with very much ever. And he he chose good to French Team Cofidis for double the money basically. And they gave him he could pick, you know, his friends, his his teammates, so, pick several of those. And it started off well, but yeah, it transpired that they had they had a kind of sleeping pill and drinking culture. And that's not a good combination. You know, even one thing. One of those dumb two accesses is bad, but they'd be on training camps, you know, in winter, this is how Vandenberg got hooked in the winter of 98. You know, they'd be it'd be bored you know, you do your training in the sun somewhere in Spain and then a radical Philip go mom, who I think one gateway will give himself. This strong, strapping Frenchman, you know, said why don't you take this and we'll have some drinks and what happens is you kind of you have a euphoric high. That's beyond you know, extreme drunkenness. You know, often you don't remember what you do when you're on under the influence of still not an alcohol, you know? And they go out partying or they're still the team campervan. And it's kind of thing you wouldn't believe it happened then, let alone now. Carlton Reid 11:28 So what is Stilnoct? It's in your book loads. So just tell us what Stilnoct is. Andy McGrath 11:34 It's a sleeping pill with various different brand names. I actually think Anglophone listeners might know it better as Ambien. I think that's alright. Okay. Yes. Australian kind of version of it. Yes, it's a sleeping pill. And you know, normally, I think it's used for insomniacs. And if you, you take one you wait 20 minutes, and it should pretty much knock you out. But they will take festivals, you know, handfuls at the very least. And if you resist if you fight the urge to sleep with alcohol, then you you push through to this strange blankness and euphoric high. And David Miller also has some stories, I think in his, his autobiography of strange things, and I'm the influence, you know. And, you know, it's kind of a reminder also, that professional cyclists, young freshmen, cyclists are very suggestible. They're, maybe not quite all of them fully formed as adults, you know, when they turn someone like Vandenbroucke turn pro, at 19. He was more brought up in the sporting culture than really, as a human being, as an app was an adult human being it and kind of influenced by that. So they're very fragile. And that's the other thing, you know, we've covered it. So there was a lacking duty of care, you know, in terms of the management and, you know, they seem to know what was going on, but they didn't do much about it really like they, they hired a psychologist to do a to have a talk with with the riders who basically laughed him out of the room. So you know, hindsight is 2020, but it was not a good team for Benbrook to band with a good culture. Carlton Reid 13:21 Andy, let's let's dig into you, because you've written this book. And we will we'll we'll talk about it, tonnes coming up. But this is before your time in effect, certainly before your time as a journalist you've started working from what I can see from your LinkedIn profile. You started working for Cycling Weekly. And then you became the head of Rouleur, which many people wouldn't want men will know both both titles of course. But this is in effect before your time. Was this before your were You were you like a big cycling fan? From a you know, a youth? Andy McGrath 14:00 Yeah, I mean, whenever its heyday was before my time in terms of cycling fandom, I really got into it, you know, the Lance Armstrong years 2002 was the year that I you know, discovered this fantastic and strange and exotic sport. And I you know, I did come across Vanderbrouke but by then he was really really on the down slide you know the downfall. I do remember his 2003 Tour of Flanders at the time you know, I remember it. It being this remarkable comeback story where you know this guy who was ranked outside the top 500 in in the UCI standings came second in the tour Flanders out of nowhere. But you know, he was kind of the figure of fun the kind of the fallen hero then. But yeah, he was kind of trying to see I didn't think much about him when I was at cycling weekly as a staff writer and then you know, joining ruler like, later on I to my first book was about Tom Simpson. I I published back in 2017 lovely kind of mix of contemporary photographs and stories from those who know Thompson best with Rapha, you know, one of their first books. And I was very fortunate that won the sports book of the year prize that year, which was a huge boon. Yes. Carlton Reid 15:22 What did you do with 30 grand Andy? Andy McGrath 15:25 I bought a Colnago Carlton, which possibly wasn't seeing us, I don't like to ride it in, you know, winter, or spring, sometimes autumn. So, you know, in the UK, I don't ride a bike to get too messy. And then that really leaves you two or three good months of cycling. So that was, that was my dream bike, you know, when I was a teenager that that was a bike. But funnily enough, that was a brand that I saw in all the cycling magazines, and I obviously, cycling journalists are not the best paid people in the world, sorry to disappoint their any young listeners. But that was, I mean, that was a life changing amount of money for me. So I did go ahead and bought a Kona Argo. You know, that was the that was the main thing and the rest went boringly in the savings. Carlton Reid 16:11 Now, I kind of threw that in there a to be rude, and see what you say. And so you know, is it wind, wind? And so on? No, it's a bike. Okay, great. But also, that was a big deal to win that, that, yeah, that's a big cash amount. And that's a big deal to win the William Hill sports book of the year well done on on that. You're basically your your, your, your, you've been writing about people who were from a different era, in effect. So these these are these are almost not united to me, Tom Simpson is isn't a contemporary, obviously. But Frank Vandenbroucke is certainly somebody I would be very, very well well aware of when I was, you know, in into, in writing about cycle sport I was, he was around at that point. So you're writing about people in effect from from from history. So you're almost a historian, not just, you know, not just a biographer, you're digging into past history, Andy McGrath 17:13 I never really thought about it like that, that's an interesting way of putting it maybe I should put historian on my LinkedIn profile. It feels like quite recent history, though. Carlton Reid 17:22 It really isn't, you know, when you look at this, this is 25 years, that's a good time away, you know, for for somebody to still be talked about, and for books to be written, etc. That's, that's, that's a federal what it is history. Andy McGrath 17:36 That's also what I like, because, you know, in a way, you know, Vandenbrouke, and Simpson both have, have had books written about them already. But I had the kind of maybe the naive hunch, which I would have told my publishers that I can get new stories, you know, there's more things to be said, by different people, which I which, which I believed in, you know, turned out to be true. You know, there's, there's deeper perspective says revisionism to be done, there's new things to be discovered. And, to be honest, I think I've found with, with slightly older people, you know, when you're talking about the people around Simpson and Vandenberg, and in general, and in cycling there, they've lived long lives, you know, so they have more more stories, more life, experience, more more regrets, you know, more successes. But they also, yeah, that somehow they're just that appeals to me, you know, they, they're certainly more open, generally speaking. You know, compared to, for example, let's say, if I was trying to write the, the biography of Matthew Vanderpool who, who won the Tour, Flanders, you know, very recently, there will be a whole circle of people around him that comparatively, it will be very close, very hard to get close to him. And very hard to get intriguing things now, you know, in 10 years time, maybe it'd be a different story. So I think that plays as a kind of advantage in a way to be going back rather than rather than always working with, you know, present champions, Carlton Reid 19:14 the people you've written about in their books are clearly flawed heroes. So both both legendary, both died, that that kind of helps if you're going to be a biographer, when somebody is no longer here in many respects, but they're both flawed. So So is that something that naturally attracts a biographer because if you if you're floored by de facto you're kind of more interesting. You know, you're you're you're there's there's chinks in that armour. There's the stuff that a journalist stroke historian can get their teeth into. And most sports people tend to be kind of flawed anyway, you know, there's many psychological studies which show that you know that the absolute top achievers have had some sort of formative bad experience in in their earlier life, which is then forced them to become these, these super men in terms of you know, male sport. So is that something that attracts you the fact that these are flawed heroes you can you can really talk about a flawed here and more than somebody who's squeaky clean. Andy McGrath 20:34 Well, firstly, I think we're all flawed. You're no one's perfect. But the Yes, I completely see what you're saying that these these are top athletes are people who push things to the extremes who, you know, can be quite flawed or extremely flawed, you know. And that's more the thing, but it, there was no middle for Vandenbroucke things were either going fantastic or his confidence was 100%. Or it was the opposite, you know, there seem to be, you know, they will see a sixth gear or a neutral with him. And I think we're all drawn to, to people who push limits that regular human beings wouldn't normally you know, push. Who wouldn't, you know, we we wouldn't want to take you know, 10 sleeping pills, and then down some glasses of wine on a night out, but so there's a kind of, I think there's a slightly vicarious fascination sometimes. But Vanderburgh was also I wouldn't say he was escaping from something, you know, a kind of traumatic incident in his childhood, but it's definitely worth noting that his father was his uncle. He was part of a second dynasty. So his uncle was dubbed the John Louis mercs as Frank would be. Sean Luke, that's right. Race for Persia had some great results. Never quite lived up to that moniker, who Ken and his father who was older than John Luke. So John's brother, John Jack. He was on the cusp of being a pro site because he just signed his his contract. When hit, their father died and he became guardian to John Luke, and John Paul. His brothers, his younger brothers, so his history was snatched away from him before he could do anything about it, and he had to he had to sell off his his father's Frank's grandfather's his basins and toilets and sinks because he was a kind of plumber handyman to shut down the business. So there was a kind of element of his Frank's Father John Jack being being a real driving force for positive and for negative through his formative years, you know, he pushed him so hard, you know, he would, he would follow training with a stopwatch praise was kind of few and far between shows of shows of kind of love work, not not regular at all. And, you know, Frank felt that sometimes you've treated too much as a cyclist and not enough as a son you know, as a as a person. And they had, you know, they had fallings out throughout Frank's life. And, you know, there was also a depression that John Jack had. Or John Paul, maybe it was actually his younger brother. And Frank had that too. So there's a kind of there's a, there's a kind of site genetic, I think, vulnerability to two of, you know, mental health problems that was on show here. So there's that extreme too. And this is what I kind of also find fascinating about not just pro cyclists, but people in general, athletes in general, that when we see them, just seeing when we see them in the Tour de France or tour Flanders, whatever, we're seeing 1% of their life, you know. And for Frank, you know, when he was on the bike, that was a kind of safe place, really, when things are going well. That was his refuge. And it was really like when he wasn't on the bike when he was by himself. And you know, he couldn't be by himself, really, he loved being around people need to be around people to be supervised sometimes. But when he was alone, that was when the problem started, when he had time to think or to do certain misdemeanours or wrong things. That was a problem. And people don't think about that, you know that. Everything really needs to be going well, and in the 99% of your life outside of the bike pace for the bike race to go well. Carlton Reid 24:46 So you mentioned father, son relationship stuff there, which can reminded me that when I was looking at the emails of when we've interacted before, and when you were editor of Rouleur, you actually published I'm getting more into you about, you actually published a ride of my son of coming back from China, in Rouleur, and this is now four or five years back when he did that ride and you, you, you published an account of that ride. But you were with Rouleur for about five years, four years editor? Andy McGrath 25:23 yeah, yeah, every year for nine years and I was here to for five years, you know, which was that was a dream. That was a dream, you know, I was in my mid 20s When I became editor, and I just loved hearing their stories where I'd actually been at cycle sport, which is part of cycling weekly part a part of that IPC Media Group, you know, 15 years ago, that was where I was kind of under under the wing of Ed Pickering, who, who's now the Rouleur editor, you know, I was around all these great writers like Lionel Birnie, and, you know, just learning from them, you know, either by by osmosis or by asking stupid questions, which is a kind of great way to learn. But I've really found I was drawn to longer form storytelling, you know, articles, over 2000 words, long interviews, you know, two, three hours sometimes or, you know, spending a whole day or, or, you know, to with a pro cyclist to really, truly get under their skin, you know, because that's also the media landscape in increasingly at the moment, sometimes, you're given 20 minutes, 25 minutes in a hotel lobby, to write a long feature that's supposed to you know, be chapter and verse about the cyclist. And that's not you know, that's not sufficient. I really was kinda like an entry kind of opened the doors you know, ruler when you said you with ruler that kind of had a special effect, they knew you were gonna do a very thorough, well researched, well written job, which I think really helped. And this is also the last landscape we're in that was, you know, I joined over 10 years ago, and slightly magazines, were more plentiful, were more more profitable. And I still read paper, by the way, I'd never read a Kindle course. And I'm, I'm kind of 35 going on 65 I just like, you know, I'm looking at a bookcase with about 200 books right now. And the same goes for magazines, I just, I'm a magazine guy. And I don't see that changing. And I'm kind of proud of that, because I'm slightly scared that in even in 10 years, Time Magazine might go the way of a vine on and be a collector's item when it really shouldn't be Carlton Reid 27:42 well, Cycling Weekly is older than Liège–Bastogne–Liège. So that was that was 1891. So that presumably, has has a place in the market, almost guaranteed a lot of the other magazines, maybe not so much, and ruler has a place in that is long form. It is something that, you know, the pro riders as well as cycle sport fans will love and look up to because it does go into immense detail and great care, and the quality of the paper, all that kind of stuff. So it's I guess, it's the magazines, in the middle, that that fall between those two kind of different models that are going to suffer. Andy McGrath 28:28 Perhaps, you know, the Rouleur owner told me a few years ago that there was there was going to be survival of the fittest and you know, he's turned out to be right. I think it's also the care you know, the photography and in rural areas, you know, top top notch I think people like that baby surprise, you know, sometimes have little feedback I got as editor, you know, that I could just see the, you know, often the subscription numbers rising and you see the sales figures and I like to think there's a very happy silent majority. And maybe the numbers pull that out that, you know, some people on social media will either go on there to say how fantastic something is, or how appalling it is or that their magazine never arrived, you know, and that's fine, you know, but that's, that's the world we live in. But I'm not even sure about cycling weekly, I've got a huge attachment to that magazine sentimentally. But it could be that that ends up being being an online only presence in 10 years time or you know five years time and I really hope that isn't the case. But that more and more people are reading things on their phones or their tablets. So you know, papers printed so as a find its its place you know, but realised yet definitely one for the connoisseur. Um, and we do crazy thing crazy fun things. You know, I remember taking a crew of photographers and writers to Paris-Roubaix, which is my favourite race. Because Because I said next year we're going to do a whole edition of Rouleur just around Paris-Roubaix. And we designed it with a kind of cobblestone font. And we kind of you know, each story was a sector basically and we did it you know, we were there for a week. We worked bloomin hard. And I think we saw six sectors on the day, which for goes from south to north, took some driving that pushed the limits of the highway code. But it was you know, we, we just had carte blanche to do pretty wild things like you know, we had a Gonzo writer called Mort not bow, who was Danish, who, who who divided opinion, you know, but I've never seen anyone write like that in cycling media, let alone sports media like and he always got the interview, he always ingratiated himself with the biggest names in cycling, you know, and that's what I loved was like different styles make make a magazine, for example, you know, Morton was meant to Morton and Jakob, who we call the crazy Danes is right of geography in a combo for several years, so we're meant to spend two hours with Lance Armstrong in the height of his, you know, scandalous air, I think was 2013 2014. And they ended up spending two or three days I played golf with him, you know, and it was just, yeah, like, the one thing about Rouleur that we wanted to change was that to make it not seem so stuffy or serious, because because we were having a lot of fun making it and we all love cycling, and there's a lot of, you know, humour to be had with it. You know, you might look at the black and white photographs. And you know, think it's been ernest but you know, we tried to change that every now and then. It's Carlton Reid 32:01 clearly it was it was founded in a party in a Guy Andrews but partly with Simon Mottram of a Rapha, so it's like, A, in some ways, like a Rapha, journal it had that certain had that, you know, in the early days, certainly had that Rapha you know, aesthetic. And, and power to its elbow for having that aesthetic, because Simon, you know, absolutely went in it, I can say this into the veins of cycling at that time with with with, you know, a very beautiful magazine. Andy McGrath 32:40 Yeah, he was, you know, he was pivotal to its founding like, along with Guy who, who was the founder, you know, they they saw they saw something different. And they, you know, they put in the money in the effort fearing that no one would buy that first issue which now goes for hundreds on eBay. And, you know, in many ways, it was similar to I think Jacque Waterlase courir magazine in the 50s and 60s, you know, that style and that aesthetic and you know, Guy didn't want any reviews. He wanted to show the cycling that you know, that he loved that also a child with the Rapha aesthetic and their values. And basically, the Rouleur blueprint that he laid out in those first issues is still what Rouleur is, you know, it's you know, in depth interviews, it's photography with a difference. And you ever heard is actually coming up for nearly 20 years. I think it'll be in a couple of years time. And Carlton Reid 33:42 Rapha is 20 years old this year. So that makes me feel old. Because now, I was the first person to report on Rapha's founding on in would have been, it would have been online, I would I probably did a story on bikebiz.com on this, you know, strange aesthetics based, cycled clothing manufacturer, you know, coming in from the advertising world. So I broke the story of Rapha coming in into cycling, and then now it's that 20 years or so their current PR you know, emails me and says, Oh, would you like to do a story on on Rapha being 20 It's like, oh my god, they're 20 and I did a story on them, you know, and it doesn't feel 20 years away. So it's history, as well. So we're kind of coming full circle on on history there. Now on on LinkedIn, you actually say you're one of your career highlights is actually writing for Bicycling. So what why was that a career highlight highlight? Andy McGrath 34:50 Did I say that? Oh, that's good. I just I just wanted to write for you know, one of the tops like a magazine. I've been seeing it all my life. You know, when I went freelance two years ago, that was basically my chance to write for whoever I wanted. And yeah, I'm a fellow fellow news. Now fellow went online. So I just saw this kind of this prestige of writing for for an American publication who, who I always thought, you know, did some really good journalism. And they do. I mean, it's most rigorous fact checking process I've ever had, and they did some beautiful photography, it was a long profile of Peter Sagan in his retirement. Yeah, and I went to Slovakia to see, you know, his family with old friends. And I went to Spain to interview him. And it kind of felt like old school journalism, you know, also that they back you to do that, you know, both in terms of time, word count, and paying expenses. Carlton Reid 35:56 And paying, because that's why I like writing for American magazines is they pay five times more than any British magazine. Andy McGrath 36:06 Yeah, I'm not sure if we should be advertising that this is true. Yeah, saying the Americans taking out lucrative stores. But no, absolutely. Like, that's the thing that I'm not sure why it's five times more. So I understand, you know, the, the kind of living costs, generally speaking, in the US in cycling friendly pockets is probably higher. So, so they were charging more, but five times more. You know, word rates for journalists, and in cycling identity have changed for 20 years, you know, since Rapha's inception, which is kind of sad. It's more of a labour of love than it ever was, and it was still a labour of love 20 years ago. But yeah, like the bicycling and you know, writing for cycling class I've written for basically every Anglophone cycling title in my not so young career now I'm 35. And it's just a pleasure, you know, that something that you know, the teenage me will be super proud of, and you know, that, don't me, it's, it's still proud of, you know, it's something really nice to go in my bookshelf. And it's always new stories and new angles, and well, not new sci fi magazines, really. But I kind of live in hope that I can keep doing that mainly around cycling, but I am you know, one slightly sad thing is that I'm trying to diversify slightly and you know, write about different sports, as well as cycling. Carlton Reid 37:39 I see you on art substack. So that's really diversifying. Andy McGrath 37:45 That's not That's not for profit. That's just for me. I just wanted to ride this is, this is something that I started this year, just going to local galleries and doing short, short reviews, you know, with just to learn about art, and to see what I like what I don't like, you know, I always, you know, I've kind of thought that modern art is a bit pretentious, but I've never really been to see that much. So I thought it could be fun. And it's proven to be fun. But the irony is that my my work deadlines are kind of impinging on my art reviews to the point that I haven't posted anything in about two months, but I will soon for my 20 substack followers. No, it's just fine. You know, you can live in deadlines. And with a bit of stress for so long that it's a nice kind of thing to try to do to, you know, flex some different writing muscles, but also learn about something totally away from sport, which is really the thing that I love. Carlton Reid 38:49 So I want to dig further into that level of cycling and into God is dead, your book. But right now I'd like to go across to my colleague David, who will give us a short ad break. David Bernstein 39:06 This podcast is brought to you by Tern Bicycles. Like you, the folks at Tern are always up for a good outdoor adventure by bike— whether that's fishing, camping, or taking a quick detour to hit the trails before picking up the kids from school. 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Carlton Reid 40:24 So we are back with Andy McGrath and Andy is the well as he's been telling us in the the before the ad break that he's been telling us about his career trajectory through cycling into into now doing an art substack even for the for the fun of it and the hell of it and the learning of it. Which Which sounds fantastic, because I should do that too. I should learn new stuff. But the thing we started this podcast with was with the the anniversary coming up to 25 years since since Frank Vandenbroucke and we can we call him VDB Do you think we can we can really Yeah. Yeah. Or should we say Frank goes to Frank because really it is it's like it's a it is actually an unknown nickname for other people in Belgium isn't is not not just something that's pertinent to him. Andy McGrath 41:23 That's right. There's lots of bands you know something? Yeah, Vanda Carlton Reid 41:27 something. Okay. So VDB we can we can go with that, as we kind of use a shorthand gumming up. So your book 2002. This came out, and he and it's the rise and fall of Frank Vandenbroucke cycling's great wasted talent is the subhead to God is dead. Now God is dead is clearly a Nietzsche reference. Also a reference to when he was coming up when when Frank was coming up through the sport, lots of people treated him as a god. And then in his autobiography, he talks about not being a god, but the very fact that he's saying he's not a God means kind of other people were saying he was a god. So that's, that's a hell of a provocative title for a book. Andy Yeah, absolutely. Andy McGrath 42:25 I just correct you there. It came out in 2022. If it came out in 2002, I would have been 14 and Carlton Reid 42:33 I'm sorry, sorry. 20222. Sorry. Yeah. No, that would have been deep military. Yes. Yes. Yes. Sorry, kind of literal, you Andy McGrath 42:39 know, the spoiler alert as you pointed out earlier as sports which makes it a kind of backwards who done it or you know, what happened to his life when you know, beside nd and also, you know, his friend contemporary or when I went on to wrote a song called Cody is dead. So I just thought it was too there are too many, you know, perfect similarities to not have that title. It does, I suppose it you know, catches the eye, as well, as you know, telling you what happened. And it intrigues and it should stop people in their tracks, you know, make them think, you know, who was this? Cyclists because most people most passing people in bookshops, for example, wouldn't have heard of Frank Vandenbrouke, some people at the time, you know, very briefly, he he was on the cover of pro cycling in the UK, for example, he was in the top three of the world rankings, he was going to be the biggest things since sliced bread on 11 speed. And then and this is the thing that half the book is really the rise of a sporting talent, exceptional sporting promise, despite all his problems, you know, that he had the human for example, he was involved in a in a crash with a rally car when he was four years old. Of all things, you know, in the country lanes where he grew up, and that meant that after a long, long recovery, his left leg was always two centimetres shorter and thinner, and the right leg which you would think will be problematic for for a pro cyclist and it proved to be problematic. You know, often during his career, he was always fighting these knee injuries. But anyway, he he rose up at a time when the stars were older, you know, they were 30 Plus, and they were quite bland in comparison to him. You know, we had Indurain, Rominger, Museuw, and Frank Vandenbrouke was this 20 year old counterpoint who said good things to all the Belgian media and was handsome, you know, he was good looking kid. But he raised with such panache. And he won unusually early unusually often. And for someone that yeah, when he was a junior, he won half his races which is ridiculous for someone who who wasn't a great sprinter either, you know, he he had to attack really to win most of the time. Carlton Reid 45:14 So it's an awful lot of is not just legacy but at the time was he just looked so beautiful on a bike I mean there's there's a little bit of you know, homo-eroticism going on there but he's just he just looked wonderful with you know those those as you're saying those those the legs being shorter and thinner. I hadn't actually noticed that but it just it looks so beautiful on a bicycle. He's just like the dream rider. Andy McGrath 45:42 Yeah, and that's the way that we the most of us wish we could you know, pedal that's like pedalling and in a dream. It's that the French word souplesse. It kind of describes the way that he pedalled you know, with, with no, either body barely moved, didn't move when the back was still when he kind of cycled it was like ballerina esque if that is the right word for a male ballerina probably is. And it was so incongreous, too, because his legs was so thin. You know, they were like pipe cleaners. Really. They weren't particularly muscular. But they were tanned and yeah, like it. It is funny about cycling isn't all Pro Cycling that sometimes it we don't just admire the best riders. With my style, we My grace. For example, I still remember this Russian writer called Mikhail Ignatieff who won a few Olympic goals on the track. And he didn't win any anything of any note, you know, in Tour de France, all the all the big leagues of road racing, but his pedal stroke was just gorgeous, just like you know. I imagine there was no human around years of you know, Russian training in the Velodrome but Carlton Reid 46:55 so that you're definitely getting back to that kind of Rapha aesthetic which, which Simon Mottram tapped into, you know that it's not about always winning. It's sometimes about just looking good and being stylish and having panache. You know, that Tom Simpson also taps into that with his suits and his writing style. Andy McGrath 47:17 Yeah, absolutely. Like, it's not about winning always. It's about how you make people feel. It's about how you bring the fans along with you all, all the media. And there's some riders in their 30s. Now, their favourite cyclists was Frank Vandenbrouke. That 999 the age pastorally. Age is the race of their dreams. I think I'll have an arson who's a former Belgian champion, said he watched it 200 times on replay I feel it was your bet. The great Belgian bike racer, idolise Vandenbrouke, that and there's something it wasn't just results like we can all have, well, not all of us, pro cyclists can have a page on Pro Cycling stats or whatever results. Software, you use that, that shows you what you've won, but it doesn't say anything for how you want it, you know, like with, with daring, long range attacks, like Vandenberg sometimes did, or what you said to the media afterwards, you know, giving them great quotes. And that's part of his charm. And you know, why people wrote books about him in Belgium, although that said, you know, if, if he hadn't been a kind of fatal hero, if he hadn't died so young, it would, it would be a happy a different story. Because Carlton Reid 48:37 there is that Amy Winehouse, you kind of mentioned that, you know, that Marilyn Monroe that kind of that here, who's a die young they stay heroes. So there's there's that element of and Africa somewhere else in your book where you talk about how people couldn't have imagined him getting older anyway. You know, there was that that there was almost a fatalism there. That this is somebody who is, you know, the Icarus figure, you know, burning bright climbing high, that will probably come a cropper like almost wasn't a surprise to many people, the way his his life ended. Unknown Speaker 49:15 Absolutely. I think sometimes that's it's not easy to say that, you know, 10 years after he's died when, you know, after the fact. And the problem was that he had all these issues, he had depression briefly and he became addicted to, you know, cocaine and amphetamines. But he will always find a way out of it that I think a lot of people thought that he would eventually find a way out of his problems, you know, the 10 years from the age when the end of his life in 2009 We were just roller coaster teaser kind of cliche like, but he would always drag himself out. So that's the sadness and and they were under a lot of pain. April, he said to me, there was some regret, you know, in the quotes that his agent pulled the gator that said, when it came to his drug addiction that they were, he compared it to a kind of sinking ship and said that, you know, when they were bailing the water out, they should really be plugged in trying to plug the hole which was quite a kind of poignant quote like I thought so and so one more thing, too We, of course it gets into sad tragic territory, but you know, it's not the kind of misery misery fest biography No, and I found them bro was loved by so many people and charmed and joked around with so many people like, he was a great impressionist, he, he was like a bouncy teenager, really, at the age of 35, still, you know, like, messing around with his roommate, and putting toothpaste on the bathroom mirror. And he had this kind of universal boyishness that people found it very hard to be mad at him, even when he did, you know, quite bad things or selfish things or acted vainly, which he could do. So there's, you know, at the core of it, it goes much beyond the cyclists into this human being who could be lovable, but can also be very frustrating and, you know, do some bad things. Carlton Reid 51:26 So the book is, yes, it's not, you're right. It's not all doom and gloom. But there's an awful lot in there. You can't get away from this about addiction, doping clearly. And then mental health care or lack thereof, in in, in not just in cycling, but in probably in society as a whole. Yeah, like, I Unknown Speaker 51:46 kind of think that. If we look back, even 10 years alone, 20 years, the duty of, of care for professional athletes was really lacking. You know, I think it's really sad that there were top level riders not just Vandenberg, who were going to psychologist or psychiatrist, but we're keeping it strong, you know, because it was seen as so shameful, you know. And to me that shy, that taps into the old school soccer mentality of, you know, the way they used to be the way they used to train, you know, do 300k Drink very little, eat very little. Ride harder, don't complain. And that could work for some people. But that is not a caring way to look up to most people. You know, that's, and that can come back to by many athletes, you know, and I think that's what happened. Vandenbrouke's psychologist probably helped to help him to live longer. You know, that's what he said in his his autobiography. Actually, Vandenbrouke Carlton Reid 52:52 That's Jeff Browers? Unknown Speaker 52:54 Yeah, exactly. And, in fact, he was probably an early kind of adopter of this help that he needed, you know, not just for, you know, the cycling was one thing, but they were trying to cure his kind of addiction problems and is show him that he he was loved, you know, even though he felt abandoned often. And that's the crux of it, that, you know, this need to be loved that I kind of thing most of, well, pretty much all all of us have, whether it's conscious or subconscious. And he always felt unloved or abandoned, despite, you know, the obvious legion of fans that he had and everything else. And that was a tragedy, there are human tragedy. Carlton Reid 53:37 So in your in your book, there's a kind of murder mystery, and to the book, murder, mystery, suicide, whatever. So Jeff, Browers was the psychologist about it, he basically told you that he thinks it was it was it was suicide, because he was, as you've just said that he needs people around and he was quite alone in that grubby hotel room in Senegal. But then other people, family obviously blame the people he was with and don't want to have that association. With with suicide, you don't really come you don't come to a conclusion because you can't really come to a conclusion, especially as it happened in Senegal, where it's kind of difficult to come to any conclusion anyway. But there's, there's various people give their their opinions weighing all that up. What's your opinion? Unknown Speaker 54:40 I don't have to give one you know, like, if it isn't clear, factually, and I can't be certain, but I've laid out you know, that's the job of the biography is to talk to everyone that was close to Vandenbrouke around him at the time. He was actually you know, basically there and include what they said Um, but no. I think that there could be something very well and what you have for hours says, you know, the psychologists who, you know, he was a man who spent hours with him and in that in that room I can see why he would say that. But one of the great, one of the great, strange things about this is, is that mystery like that, you know, Vandenbrouke had never even been to Africa, and he decided to go to Senegal, ye. And this filmic ending, you know, where, whereas you say, a prostitute was the last person to see him alive. So maybe he wanted it to be, you know, clouded in some kind of doubt that it could never be be definitive. But either way, you know what, like, whichever way that he died, it was pretty tragic that that he died, you know, and he's not the only one from that era, either. He had Pantani, you had Jose Maria Jimenez, you know, and I think it's, it's partly a kind of symptom of the doping culture that what they were taking to perform in bike races made it much easier to get into recreational drugs. And both of those things, mess with your mind and your body. And probably your, your, your soul, you know, the core of who you really feel you are and what you're doing, you know, whether you think it's cheating or not that moral maze, it, it can't be easy. I'm there must have been a hot a horrible time to be a pro cyclist. Carlton Reid 56:41 People think of these things doping is a black and white issue. Yet, there's a spectrum here, you know, is I mean, the UCI classifies too many coffees, too many espressos as doping. But, you know, four or five, okay. You know, marginal gains, you know, all these things, which which you can legally do, and yet you somehow trip over a line, if you take this other thing. And the other thing is, is meant to be this evil thing. And that's clearly you know, the wrong thing to do. But vitamin supplements and you know, creatine, all of these things are performance enhancing, why did they not get the stigma that EPO get? So it's a spectrum and addicted, it's very difficult to say this as a black and white thing, when there are many things that can make you better on a bike, including EPO, but then you know, just your energy gel makes you better on a bike, should we be adding energy gels, it's there's very little nuance gets into it talking about doping, it's just black and it's white. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 57:57 when really if you're saying is that it's basically shades shades of grey, you know that the modern game does you're in the peloton is ketones, which are not banned, but they seem to be ethically questionable. And my rudimentary understanding of the science around it is also that no one knows how, how it can affect the career in a few years time or five years time that we might be seeing some writers already suffering from not using them in the right way or overusing them. Well, Carlton Reid 58:35 my wife is a is a diabetes doctor. So she knows about ketones, and she knows about insulin, as well. And insulin was, was clearly one of the things that Frank used to basically say he was going to kill himself and he's going to use insulin to do so. So potentially that was, it's very hard to trace insulin as if you're going to kill yourself with insulin. So potentially, that's, that's, yeah, you're gonna kill yourself insulin is a pretty good way of doing it. Andy McGrath 59:11 Yeah. And you know, why would you why would you take that to Senegal? Or how would you source it? You know, what? He wasn't a diabetic, you know, so. Yeah, I won't give away you know, the ending or, you know, what everyone said about the ending, but, you know, several people were pointing towards suicide, certainly in the book, but yeah, like, I just going back to the grey area of crime doping. I just hope it's a bit more nuanced. Now. The way that people regard dope is like I even think that you know, 10 years ago. It it's really hard. It's very hard, isn't it? Because they have cheated. They have done something wrong, and they've done it knowingly, you know, in probably 99% of cases. Despite the numerous They can excuse. Carlton Reid 1:00:02 Yes, there have been quite a few good ones. False twin Unknown Speaker 1:00:10 Yeah, false twin, pigeon pie, weeks from a Colombian grandmother. It's got Carlton Reid 1:00:17 I bought it for my dog. Okay. Unknown Speaker 1:00:20 Yeah, well, that was bingo. So on the one hand, they are not above appropriate, you know, the rider. They are number one, you know, anything that turns up in their body knowingly or unknowingly, if they're positive, that's that's on them, you know, that's how it is. And I totally get that. But on the other hand, it still seems to me that the culture around doping IE, you know, the people that help them or, or facilitate, you know, people like team doctors, team managers, people in the know, people who are still in the sport, you know, nowadays seem to get away with it, pretty much, often quite, quite scot free. And that's not okay. And I've had, you know, cyclists who were pros in the 80s through to, you know, the last decade, you know, saying a similar thing, but that's a thing that needs to be changed that needs to be snuffed out like the right is kind of like the symptom of a wider problem. And of course, if we knew the answer if the UCI or Wilder knew the answer, you know, anti doping foundations famously have much smaller smaller budgets and maybe even the biggest cycling team in the world they're always fighting kind of a chasing battle they're always you know, one step behind maybe against the latest wonder drug or the kind of latest cheats but I think I can save some some confidence Pro Cycling is is cleaner now than it was in Vandenbrouke's heyday. But I also fear that it'll never be totally clean partly because of human nature partly because of the money was going up and up and partly because of this bizarre kind of will to win this drive is addiction Carlton Reid 1:02:13 Yeah, can even amateur races you know, people have been caught doping that will to win Andy McGrath 1:02:22 Yeah, I mean, that's that's sad in my opinion, you know, if you're, if you're doping to win a category three cap for race. What's the point? You know, Carlton Reid 1:02:32 do you race have you written Have you raced Unknown Speaker 1:02:38 I did a few time trials when I was up at university in York. Beautiful place to ride around there Oh, and I did someone's teenager with the Addiscombe in Croydon that's where I'm from. no great shakes, Carlton. I've never meant to be the next Frank Vandenbroucke much better at writing than riding my bike has put it that way. But Carlton Reid 1:03:08 yeah, you're a rider. Not a racer. So that that that that Colnago that you bought is something that you would ride on a nice day with no mud around so what you're writing normally what's what's if you're not running the Colnago what you're writing Andy McGrath 1:03:33 it's a time XRS I'll steel a nice bike from now not a pub bike. Unknown Speaker 1:03:38 It's a decent bike it was just it just keeps going and it gets me around town if I want to ride in the autumn or winter on the road so I'll use Quickstep used to ride it back in the day me 20 years ago you know Palpatine and all that Carlton Reid 1:03:57 which did you pick that up in your in your magazine days then is that was you kind of like you somehow acquired it back then. Andy McGrath 1:04:07 Well, the thing about me is I'm I'm not I'm no techie I'm really good people that would have seen me trying to fix a puncture back in the cycling weekly office 15 years ago would have realised that immediately now I'm there because I like riding my bike. I just to be completely honest, like I don't know much about bike tech and isn't the most interesting thing about cycling for me, you know, I'm the people that ride the bikes, you know, the pros and all their you know, differences and their opinions and personalities. That's much more interesting to me than say this bike weighs eight kilos or this carbon one weigh 7.5 But that's that's just me, you know, each have their own. Yeah, I'd much rather you know ride a bike then. do the legwork for it, you know, which is but actually need to get better at you know mechanics and changing chains and that kind of thing and maybe on a warm summer's day, I'll just practice doing Carlton Reid 1:05:13 that. That's what bike shops are for. That's my opinion. Now I'm with you. I'm with you on the I'm not fussed about technical stuff I've never really been happy writing about the technical stuff doesn't excite me writing about technical stuff or weighing things and yeah, it's the people that is all the stories that are around it that that are from me, personally. A more interesting. Andy McGrath 1:05:40 Yeah, absolutely. Like, I find it hard to rhapsodise about tech, you know, whereas I can. Yeah, like I kind of wish I was more intrigued by it, but I'm just not, that's just my personality. And the funny thing is, as a former tech magazine, Ed editor, you really you do have to slightly balance the editorial side with not keeping advertisers happy, but keeping them onside. And there was a slight tech element with Rila. But we we did it in our own way with basically treating the bike or the other kit, like a like a model, you know, hanging on trees or oversea wall, or all kinds of crazy sheets. Carlton Reid 1:06:29 So if people want to and we're now wrapping up here, Andy, if people want to get your book and be maybe getting in touch with you or find out what you're doing, where do they find you on websites on on social media? Unknown Speaker 1:06:44 They can find me on X formerly known as Twitter before Elon Musk made it even worse. Yeah, at Andy McGrath, that's a n d, why. MC Gra? So, take off the th basically for my surname. Yeah, they want to buy the book, just any online bookseller, really from from Amazon to Waterstones to Blackwell's to whoever, whoever you like, it's on there. And I'll put Carlton Reid 1:07:19 your art stack substack link in in the show notes. So people can also you know, if they're not interested in cycling, they could they could follow you for your, you know, your your opinions on Anthony Conway says Andy McGrath 1:07:31 the next step comes from me being an expert, what's your, what do you think? Carlton Reid 1:07:39 Well, I guess if you're not into the techie side, you know, and you're just looking at maybe just the people behind these things, rather than the art itself? I don't know. Is that do they? Are you looking at the art itself? What's going to interest you? Andy McGrath 1:07:51 I am mainly looking at the art itself being and that ties into their lives and the era they were in. It's a bit of everything really, you know, if it's modern art that I'm likely to question, you know, how did this make me feel? You know, what do I feel? What does this elicit in me kind of understand how much work is took or, you know, the literal art artistry behind it? That's one element. But, you know, I just went to see Frank Howell back. He's at the Courtauld in London. He's basically the last surviving artist from that Lucien Freud. Francis Bacon set in the 1950s. And I thought it was fantastic and but it's only black and white because he didn't have the money for pain in 1950s, which I've become a pain which is also an insight into a different world, you know, that I'm very fortunate to not be in you know, post World War reconstruction. But anyway, we we digress. Any followers are welcome. Carlton Reid 1:09:02 Yes, no, I'll put that link in. For sure. And to your other things. So Andy, thank you so much for for talking to us on me, us. Andy McGrath 1:09:11 Thank you. Absolute pleasure. Carlton Reid 1:09:15 And that's it for today's show. Thanks for listening to Episode 351 of the spokesmen podcast brought to you in association with Tern bicycles, show notes and more can be found at the-spokesmen.com As I mentioned earlier, the next episode, dropping real soon, will be a chat with cycling writer, Laura Laker. But meanwhile, get out there and ride ...

17th March 2024 The Spokesmen Cycling Podcast EPISODE 349: Turn on Strava for everyday journeys, it could reshape streets for the better SPONSOR: Tern Bicycles HOST: Carlton Reid GUEST: Tom Knights, Strava Metro LINKS: https://www.the-spokesmen.com/ https://www.ternbicycles.com https://twitter.com/CarltonReid https://press.strava.com/articles/stravas-metro-reaches-significant-milestone-of-10-year-anniversary https://metro.strava.com Carlton Reid 0:13 Welcome to Episode 349 of the Spokesmen cycling podcast. This show was engineered on Sunday 17th of March 2024. David Bernstein 0:28 The Spokesmen cycling roundtable podcast is brought to you by Tern bicycles. The good people at Tern are committed to building bikes that are useful enough to ride every day and dependable enough to carry the people you love. In other words, they make the kind of bikes that they want to ride. Tern has e-bikes for every type of rider. Whether you're commuting, taking your kids to school or even carrying another adult, visit www.ternbicycles.com. That's t e r n bicycles.com to learn more. Carlton Reid 1:03 I'm Carlton Reid. On today's show, I'm talking with Tom Knights. He's the senior manager of partnerships and marketing for Strava Metro. This is a super-useful active travel city-making dataset-service from the athlete tracking app. And if you bristled at the word athlete, because you think there's no sport in transport, listen on ... Strava metro was very, very insistent in 2020. About how successful cycling and and walking in all active mode because of the pandemic and the blog posting was, you know, we're very pained to say this. However, you know, it's really, really, we're going crackers with the amount of cycling as you know, the bike boom, yeah, what did go amazing. Now, the bike industry right now is famously and woefully massively down in the dumps. So what have you seen with usage? So what has happened since 2022? actual usage of bicycles not just, you know, we know the sales are bad. Is the usage bad also? Tom Knights 2:21 Yeah, that's a really good question. And actually like to say the kind of the free, the free, free call to Strava Metro kind of suddenly going free was actually very well timed, unfortunately, under very difficult circumstances globally. One of the reasons like I say, we kind of made Strava Metro free wasn't actually because of the pandemic and the looming kind of crisis. And obviously, this switch to human powered transportation. It was like, almost like an unfortunate timing, but but obviously beneficial for cities and all the planners that start to use this data. So yes, we definitely saw this huge boom during the kind of 2020 21 era. And thankfully, because a lot of cities and a lot of regions and governments had the foresight to start investing in protecting cycle lanes in safe routes, which we know is one of the biggest barriers to people actually kind of picking up a bicycle. Lot of those initiatives have stayed, and we hope that they've stayed because actually, they've been able to see some of the Strava activity straight through Strava Metro, and then use that against other data sources to start to understand actually, is this being used in terms of trends, and overall, we've definitely seen more of a normalisation but again, what we are seeing is obviously, people looking for alternatives to either commute, and then well, kind of 2024 the word commute looks a bit different than maybe it did in 2019. But anything that's a utility trip, and essentially through safe and accessible infrastructure. That's what we know. And I'm sure you know, from all the kind of conversations you've had over the years, that's the biggest driver to people, making it feel safe. So, long story short, yes, we've definitely seen a normalisation now, in terms of growth Carlton Reid 4:06 Normalisation, that sounds like quite a bit of a euphemism for, for what? Tom Knights 4:12 So I guess the new the new normal as it were, so we've definitely seen that growth. And then now what we've seen, like I say, as people who are consistently cycling now, and then obviously, we hope that through infrastructure improvements into society into communities, that will then also encourage even more folks to pick up a bicycle on that front. Carlton Reid 4:33 I'm gonna carry on digging here, because I think it's quite important. So that graph that was on the Strava Metro, I remember it well, the human powered transportation one Yep. Yeah. So I mean, that was that was great. But, you know, so when you've been normalisation, is that graph, it went up like crazy. And do you mean by normalisation that it went down so well usage is down or has plateaued, Tom Knights 5:00 so not I mean, it's difficult to say but I wouldn't say plateau because we're always seeing kind of growth. And that's what's so exciting a and I can't necessarily kind of say a lot more about the Strava core Strava world because of course, that's a different kind of department as it were. But in terms of the Metro world, and what we're seeing in terms of cycling, in general, we've just seen that spike from 2019 to 2020, that continued growth into 2021. And now what is is probably more of that kind of continuous steady growth. As opposed to that, we I wouldn't say we've definitely seen any kind of drop off as it were on that front. Carlton Reid 5:34 So it's interesting, because we now have metrics that we just didn't have, you know, 10, 15 20 years ago, from an industry perspective, used to be able to track sales of number of bikes, and but you never knew whether, actually people even though a few bikes sold, actually, people might actually be riding more, potentially. So now we have metrics from from people like you, where you can not only track the number of bikes sold, but you can also track roughly whether people are using those bikes. So that's fascinating information from a market point of view. And the way I'm going from on that is you've got some high end holiday companies, you know, Glorious Gravel going to Sri Lanka, Namibia, all these amazing places with people who got clearly a lot of money and a fair bit of time. Yeah, still getting out there cycling. So when we haven't seen that end shift at all. But no, that's the rarefied end, isn't it? That's like, Yeah, from from a metro point of view. Tom Knights 6:42 Yeah, definitely. I mean, I in terms of, you know, think travel and tourism, that is obviously a kind of luxury. And, you know, for kind of people a having the kind of means to kind of jump on a plane or to kind of visit and take the time off. And that's great, though, for kind of seeing that, that boom, because we want people to kind of get an introduction to cycling in general. And if that means discovering it on a holiday tour, fantastic. Hopefully, that then translates into cycling into work maybe two or three days a week, or suddenly dropping a car trip once a week, because they've discovered the joy of cycling. But I think January what we're hoping, though, is we see this bike boom, fueled by better and safer streets. That's, that's our kind of main concern is that, if you build it, I know, you've heard this phrase a lot before, you know, if you build it, people will come. And we know that from Strava Metro data, when you look at the kind of streets where there's been investment, the Before and After Effects is amazing. See this kind of increase in trips. Now, of course, you might say, Well hold on Strava growth. But actually, what we're seeing is that Strava Metro data alongside Eco-counter or Telraam data, you can start to kind of normalise and build a model. And I think that's what we're we're hoping that people can start to, as you mentioned, all these amazing datasets start to pull these together, and then really build this picture to kind of tell a different story than perhaps maybe the negative stories are saying in terms of, you know, cycling booms over or no one's using this bike lane, etc. Carlton Reid 8:10 And this is an obvious question, okay. And this is a question that I'm sure you are incredibly well used to batting away, and you know, you're gonna get it. And you, you could almost do it yourself. So that is in your documentation. It's all about athletes. Of course, when you put that into Strava Metro, you're talking about non lycra. I know you discuss this on your blogs, but just just tell me now, why I would be wrong to suggest that Mamils, women on bikes and lycra why the data is robust, even though you talk about athletes? Tom Knights 8:53 Yeah, no, you're quite right. And it's a, it's a really good point. And I suppose, from the data point of view, we're not looking at, we look at those as activities and people and trips so that the athletes is more of a kind of Strava kind of communications in a playful way to call our community athletes, and you've probably seen various different messages over the years about, you know, if you're an athlete, you're on Strava. And, and essentially, there is a lot of truth in that, you know, we want anyone who moves through human powered transportation, or through moves and find their joy in discovering movement ways we would define as an athlete, you know, anyone who is doing that, now appreciating the world of transportation planning and bike lanes and commuting, you might not think, you know, cycling across the Waterloo Bridge in the morning at 830. You're an athlete, but essentially, from a metro point of view, what we're looking to do is see these community based trips as data points, like say that can be used for improving infrastructure on that front. And I think the way that actually I would position it personally is often thinking, well, everyone who uploads a ride on to Strava is a human powered counter, because through through Metro That's going towards some kind of better cause in terms of funding and reviewing active travel investment. But I do understand your point about you know, Mamil. And you know, a lot of drivers growth in the early days was fueled by that amazing core set of athletes. And you know, I grew up in this town called Dorking, which you're probably familiar with, from the classic ride, sorry, and I'm very familiar, you know, the weekends kind of seeing, you know, the the kind of, I say the kind of more sportive rides coming through the town. But actually, what that served is actually an inspiration for more people's go. Actually, that was quite fun. I should try that. And I think the data we're seeing through Year in Sport that we've done anecdotally, through Metro data, that actually we've got a lot more 18 to 34 year olds, who are now also discovering the joy of active transportation. And again, Metro data is telling us that it's not just, you know, the weekend, you know, the Saturday morning at 10am, in the Surrey Hills or on the the kind of Yorkshire Dales it's actually taking place on the streets of Manchester, or the streets of London, etc. And I think that's what we're hoping is that story through community or athletes, as you know, we're calling it that that helps planners to see that trend is is not just, you know, the kind of Lycra brigade Who are you know, cycling and I would all use what the same people that are cycling at the weekends, you know, on the kind of right sorry, classics or up in the Yorkshire Dales are also the same people that are using bike lanes. And equally as important when we're thinking about counting. Carlton Reid 11:30 Of course, you're not getting the invisible in American terms, it's called the invisible cyclists. So these are often Latino. Basically poor people on bikes, who are definitely not going to be using Strava. But going to using bikes, and then they call them invisible cyclists, because they're not on bicycles that perhaps an enthusiast would ride, but they are using bicycles and all power to their elbow, but power to their knees. Now, you're not capturing them. So if you're not capturing a significant number of people who are using the roads, does that not suggest that you're missing an important chunk of people who are not using? You just can't capture everybody? And how important is that? Tom Knights 12:27 Yeah, really, really good point. And I guess a couple of bits on that is that essentially no data set, you know, the world is accurate, you think about a, you know, a bicycle counsellor on the embankment or, you know, in the middle of Manchester, or even in the rural area, you know, if someone doesn't go through that specific kind of counting station, as it were, you're not being picked up in the count. And I think that's what Strava Metro is really kind of aiming to do is essentially colouring the map with all the blank spots that aren't being picked up. And being free, which is, again, one of these kind of opportunities to kind of get this data into the masses, allows transportation planners allows Safe Streets advocates, anyone who's focused on transportation equity and environmental racism to dive into that data and go, Okay, looks like actually, there's people going through this counting station here. But actually, Strava Metro is also showing us that people are going down this route. So what's interesting what's going on there. And again, you're quite right to call out that the heat map, for example, in, you know, maybe underrepresented areas, or places that don't necessarily have the same political will have, you know, more affluent areas who have perhaps built cycle lanes or made their streets more attractive from things like heat islands, you think about kind of cities outside of the UK that suffer a lot from high temperatures, you know, the streets are not necessarily designed for being walkable and bikable. That's what we're really hoping we can also use the Strava data to show what's not happening, as well as what's happening. And again, a lot of the work that Metro is involved in is ties back into this kind of social impact piece. It's not just, you know, we obviously want this data to be used by, you know, transportation planners, but we're also hoping we can start to, you know, work a lot more with, you know, say advocacy groups, anyone likes easy, bold environmental racism and transportation equity, to really kind of look at that data, and metrics looks, it's been designed that anyone including myself, I'm not a geospatial professional, but I can see, you know, through a map and looking at certain areas where people are cycling and when they're not cycling, but also we want to build a product and I can't really, you know, say I'm not necessarily holding the Strava product side, but we want to build an experience, which is all encompassing for everyone on there, but I definitely understand your point about the barriers to entry, you know, just in general, you cycling you need to have a bike to join Strava you need a mobile phone that supports you know, obviously your Strava although we do have connections with lots of fitness devices, but again, that comes at a cost, but hopefully, the more people that learn about Metro and the authenticity and the kind of the fact that it's free. The fact that Strava is free to join, it gives people a sense of empowerment that actually, I can change something that's happening on my street. And that's a big part of the messaging that, you know, I'm working on, and certainly have been working on for the last five years, because as you say, maybe the association with Strava is it's just for athletes, or people who are doing k runs, and Q RMS, etc. But actually, what we're seeing is that more and more people are turning to Strava, to kind of log their activities, and hopefully through when they learn about Metro, they'll realise that they're actually changing their communities, because that data is really kind of playing a part in helping to shape your better infrastructure or, essentially, build a political case for more investment. Carlton Reid 15:45 Good point. So somebody like me, who's been a Strava member since 2013 I discovered by looking into my profile this morning, Tom Knights 15:53 and then thank you for your long term membership. Carlton Reid 15:57 I would say, I'm not a frequent updater. But I should be, shouldn't I? So what you're saying is people like me who have it on our phones, don't use it, you know, because I don't consider myself an athlete. Yeah, that should be turning on, for even everyday journeys, because it helps. Tom Knights 16:18 So I've been, you know, I'd have that in writing. And, as it quite, you know, when we kind of go out to advocacy kind of events and talk to kind of people because I think, as you've just said, you know, the more people that discover about this, you know, cycle of like Strava, being free and then wanting to make streets better. And then Metro, obviously, enabling that, we think there's a really compelling story. And I genuinely there's, this is such a passionate thing to kind of work on. And I think we're very lucky, you know, part of the metro team to be able to have these conversations with partners all over the world. And I think we are we've met at Velo-city a couple of times before. And the one thing that comes up all the time at these conferences is, you know, how are we measuring it? Or how do we win the case for safer streets? And, you know, this is our answer to that and to say, well, let's come together and bring all these amazing datasets that are available out there. You know, let's build a case and get people to see that this is available. Carlton Reid 17:12 And those datasets, the expectation is, from your point of view, that a transportation planning department will be using multiple sources, they won't be just using Metro. They'll be using their own counting devices, hopefully, if they've got them. And they'll be plotting everything. And they'll have some sort of, will they have a desktop with everything on? Or have they got like a look at lots of different screens? Tom Knights 17:40 Yeah, so what we hear from from foreigners, they use a lot of geospatial kind of software, you know, there's obviously various different enterprise kind of grade level software and data analytics tools where you can always ingest multiple sorts of data. So we make extracting the data from from Metro, which is, I'm sure, hopefully, everyone realises completely anonymized, obviously, and then also aggregated, we make that very easy for partners to essentially download, and then upload back into, like, say, all of this data planning tools. And obviously, you know, there's multiple data sets out there. And largely, like I say, we use the same mapping tools as well. So OpenStreetMap is really important, you know, in terms of, actually, how do you paint a picture of your infrastructure in your area. And like, say, planners will then use that to build reports to kind of maybe produce research, and then essentially come up with this kind of our number, which says, you know, for every X number of trips on Strava, you can say that there's 100 trips of normal, non non Strava usage, for example, send your Strava. But, and we've seen a couple of examples that, you know, the Office of National Statistics have done that, in rural remote areas, Transport for London, have been using it to kind of model traffic lights through London and the timing that you get on green times, you know, and it's not just Strava D. So you don't want to build cities just around one particular user. But that's why being like I say, a free tool to do that allows us to kind of plug into all these other datasets. Unknown Speaker 19:12 Let's let's go backwards a little bit into Carlton Reid 19:16 that, that I'll use your term, the athlete, so you basically got a rider? Yeah, going along. I'll use like, even though I'm like to 50 miles away. I'll use London as an example. So going along the Embankment. Yeah, yeah, yes, you've anonymized all the data. So this is not you know, you know, you don't know this particular person on a bike at all. You can't track anything. But you can see at a granular level, whether they are on the road or whether they are on the Embankment cycleway, and you can see where they make that you know, sudden turn like there's a there's a few turns on the embankment where you've got to make quite a shift to get on to the cycleway. So you in Strava Metro, you can see that too. happening? Tom Knights 20:01 Exactly that so we can see, like I say the, I think there's something like 420 million edges in the whole world. So edge is referred to as streets on OpenStreetMap. And if you've got some enthusiastic mapping listeners on this podcast, hopefully they might be able to write in and correct me in some tell me how many exactly edges there are. But if you think about the world as all of these kind of different edges and routes that are built up, where there's been a Strava activity gone over the top of that, and, of course, where there's been a minimum of free, which allows us to kind of aggregate those activities, we can exactly that show you where people have turned left, how many trips went off, on a certain direction? Was this route busier because of a road closure one week? Or was this route more improved year on year because of a safer kind of passageway? You know, I appreciate we're talkinh about cycling here. But if you think about running and walking, you know, was this improved? Because there was better lighting? Or were more people using this pathway, because, you know, there was a kind of nice new path put down. So I think this is like it's this kind of colouring in the map with all the other kind of datasets that are available. And then Strava can kind of tell you that picture of where, you know, there has been activity. Carlton Reid 21:12 So when Nick Ferrari goes on the radio and says, I got stuck behind a cyclist on the Embankment, they should be on the cycleway. You could or anybody could go to Strava Metro, and say, well, actually, that must have been just a completely unusual person. Because look, 99.9% of of cyclists are going on to the cycleway. And here look, we can show you the heat map where that is happening. That's what you can do? Tom Knights 21:42 Exactly that. And like I say you want one colour, I would say is it's not anyone. So that was one of the caveats to the authenticity of the kind of Metro project. And I know that word authenticity thrown a lot you know about but that the only reason Metro works is because the Strava community buy into this idea that the data has been used for something good, not for commercial purposes. So not anyone can access Metro, but TfL can access it, for example, in your example of the bike lanes in London, London cycling campaign could access this because of course, you know, they're involved in advocacy work. Unfortunately, LBC wouldn't be able to access this, because obviously they're using it for other purposes. But actually anyone involved in safe infrastructure, and we hope that this is it, you know, when the the transportation teams, all these different medical authorities or local authorities can actually go, actually what we have seen on the street is that X percentage of people are using this bike lane on there. And that's, that's what I think it's going to take to kind of not win the argument, but really convinced people that bike lanes are being used, and they're a good investment. They're just incredibly efficient, because you never see anyone in traffic. And then yes, people are constantly moving. Carlton Reid 22:53 Yes. Now, I know you're not on this side of it. So it's a slightly unfair question to ask, but I'd like one I'd like you to tell me about anyway. So at the end, not not now. But at the end, I'd like you to go through and just tell people how much it costs to, you know, go the full fat version of Strava. But before you do that, and that's going to be the end anyway, just let's just, you know, just confirm this right now, you do not need to use Strava Metro for is free for transportation planners, anybody else. But you don't need any, you're not going to get hassled to become a pro member. To be one of these people like me who just want to do good for the community by turning metro or Strava on for our normal daily rides, you won't be charged for that you can get a free membership that will do everything apart from all the pro level stuff that you don't need anyway, if you're just one of these lapsed people? Tom Knights 23:56 Yeah, it's possible. And so, you know, Strava is like has always operated on that kind of freemium model, as it were, that you know, at its simplest, you can download the app, join the community upload rise. And then if you've made that road public, so I should have added that caveat as well, that will contribute to metric because of course, you know, people might want to hide the start or the end of their journeys, they won't count. Some people might want to also hide a certain route. But hopefully, like say when they hear about the project and go actually, this is a pretty good idea, I should start uploading my routes and maybe, you know, further down the line as they kind of start to explore Strava they want to kind of look at a route or they want to kind of go oh, that could be quite a good tool to have because I've got more into my cycling journey, then yes, of course. Strava is open for them. But at its source and Metro, they are both free. Carlton Reid 24:46 Mm hmm. Okay. At this point, I would like to cut away to my colleague, David who will give a short break. David Bernstein 24:56 This podcast is brought to you by Tern bicycles. The good people at Tern are committed to building bikes that are useful enough to ride every day and dependable enough to carry the people you love. In other words, they make the kind of bikes that they want to ride. Tern has e-bikes for every type of rider. Whether you're commuting, taking your kids to school or even carrying another adult, visit www.ternbicycles.com. That's t e r n bicycles.com to learn more. This podcast is brought to you by Tern bicycles. The good people at Tern understand that while a large cargo bike can carry oodles of stuff, many of us prefer something a little more manageable. That's why they've come up with the HSD e-cargobike for folks with big aspirations to go car free, delivered in a compact size, with its rear shock, 280 kilos, and a combined hauling capacity of 180 kilos. The robust new HSD is stable and easy to manoeuvre, even when under load. And with its Bosch eBIKE SYSTEM tested and certified to meet the highest UL standards for electric and fire safety you'll be able to share many worryfree adventures with a loved one whether it's your kiddo or Nan. Visit www.ternbicycles. That's te r n turn bicycles.com to learn more Carlton Reid 25:57 Thanks, David. And we're back with Tom Knights of Strava Metro, and I was looking at your LinkedIn profile. And as you do when you when you want to talk to somebody and you want to find out their background, and you've kind of similar background to me, in that you did classics you did you did like nothing to do with what you're doing in your day job. You did like it will tell me what you did it was Exeter University exactly what you did. So I kind of found found myself essentially looking at degree subjects where, you know, I was interested in more the kind of anthropological aspects of history and actually Classical Studies, and I'm always very much told by classic students that classics versus Classical Studies is a very different subjects. Obviously, one focuses heavily on Latin language in Greek texts, whereas Classical Studies is more about, you know, the discovery of what was going on during the Roman Empire in the Greek Empire period. So that was always a passion of mine about kind of understanding society, and maybe what was the kind of political kind of themes at the time and, you know, fascinated about some communities on there. And, of course, the story for the dad joke, but like, most people, when you study history, there's no future in it. I'll use that. Tom Knights 27:24 But yeah, obviously, you know, that allowed me, you know, I suppose to back in the kind of early 2000s, when I was at university, you know, it was a very privileged time, when they weren't necessarily crippling university fees and structure. So it allowed me to kind of study a subject, which was more of a passion project. But of course, you know, didn't necessarily elude me into kind of a specific career working in British museum or on an archaeological site in antiquity. And actually, in hindsight, I think geography would have been more of my passion, because that's ultimately what's kind of landed me in this area of transportation and maps and bicycles. Geography was always my kind of first passion. Carlton Reid 28:04 But you're a man after my own heart, because I did a degree, that was nothing connected to what I eventually did. And that was religious studies and comparative religion. And I did Hebrew, as well. So I did do a not a classic language, but I did a language that was known to antiquity. I'd say, yeah, we've come similar backgrounds. But then you've if you look at your career progression, it went very quickly from something that's completely useless to and affect your career. If I look at your career arc has been certainly tech. So from the very first it was you went from classics, blummin' heck,, to tech, that's that's a leap. And then you've carried on that, that that trajectory. Tom Knights 28:45 Yeah, definitely, I think that kind of, you know, almost juxtaposes the kind of interest in history, but I think a lot of my friends maybe went into, you know, in the early 2000s, like most people kind of found their way going into financial services, I'd always kind of been more interested in the world of tech and technology. And then working my way up through various kind of research firms and kind of people teams in that world of headhunting and kind of early days of, of search, when it comes to kind of jobs and careers. Allow me I suppose just to suppose learn a lot more about the world of tech, and then actually through interviewing people and and candidates and helping people on their search journey. That then opened my eyes into this whole world of kind of software, which again, early 2000s was really interesting, and then tied into that passion for sports and maps and mapping, landed, actually initially at a company when I lived in Hong Kong for five or six years, which was doing event registration for marathons and five K's and stuff like that, which is obviously very relevant to the Strava world nowadays. But it was when Strava Metro came along and said that they were looking for someone to essentially grow the community on Strava Metro in Europe. It was too good an opportunity not to kind of put my CV forward so You know, tied into all my passions around mapping and transportation. Carlton Reid 30:04 And, and getting out there and doing stuff. As in Yes. Being an athlete if you want to use that term. Tom Knights 30:11 Exactly. And you know, that's a it's an interesting point to kind of call up. But essentially the the advice, actually the CEO at the time, who was a gentleman called James, and actually Michael Hogarth, the founder of Strava, they said, The most important thing you can do in this role at Strava Metro is get out there and see bike lanes and infrastructure, or really understand what the kind of partners are doing. So over the last five years, that's kind of allowed me to get involved and actually see some of these projects. And you know, one of the best moments of the year or certainly at conferences, or events we go to whenever there's a bike parade, and I've never had a bike tour or a technical tour around the cities that you can visit, and you can really start to see the, you know, how those numbers come to life, actually, in the physical world, because, again, we've focused a lot on on this talk, we talked a lot about the Embankment. But actually, there's a whole multitude of examples around the European continent, and also across the world of bike lanes, which we visited and gone. Gosh, that's really interesting, what innovative design and oh, look at how that impacted this number of people. Carlton Reid 31:13 Tell me about your day them. So you've got somebody flagged out that yes, sometimes travelling around a bit. So what what do you do, Tom, scribe, what you actually do to people who don't know what you might be doing day to day? Tom Knights 31:28 I love it. So my biggest kind of responsibility is to grow the awareness of Strava Metro. And obviously, the more people that hear about Metro, hopefully, from listening to this, the more people might go, okay, that's really interesting. I didn't know that. So essentially, that's our, our main focus is to speak to the folks that active travel England through to the city of Paris, and obviously, the, the onset of zoom and online meetings has made that a lot more accessible now, which is great. So as much as I'd love to go visit all these places, a lot of them are done by kind of video conferencing, which is allowed us to scale and obviously tell the story in a kind of much more scalable way. But where possible, I'll always try and visit partners and learn about what they're doing on the ground. And then actually, one of the biggest kind of tasks this time around is to then how do we communicate these back to the Strava community, and then get all these 120 million athletes who are on Strava, to actually learn about these projects that their movement has contributed to, because that's going to be the power of when they understand that your cycles work, even though it's providing you with your exercise or your means of transportation. It's also having a big impact on how, for example, you transport Greater Manchester or Transport for London to building your roads and your cycling. So if it helps with that extra bit of motivation, to get out of bed on a kind of cold January morning to kind of, you know, get cycling or walking to work, then, you know, we've done our job. Carlton Reid 32:57 Isn't there an argument and I am playing devil's advocate here a little bit, council employee, a transportation but oh, maybe a councillor could actually use your data, which shows us lots and lots of people using a certain road? At a certain time? Yeah. And you would say, to a council? Officer? Well, look, we need to improve this route. Because look, how many cyclists are using it, we need to improve that. So it's more comfortable besides blah, blah, blah. But, you know, a councillor could use that exact same argument and say, Well, why do we need to improve anything? You're just telling me there's loads of cyclists using this road? Great, job done? Tom Knights 33:44 Well, I think the answer that is the kind of the theory that maybe, you know, a lot of highways and motorways around the world have used, which is what more lanes will fix it. And what did what happens when you get one more loan, we'll fix it, you get more cars driving? Well, I think the principle for that applies in terms of, if you keep fixing and increasing the number of cycle paths and bike lanes, then you'll see an increase in even more cyclists on there. So that would be my kind of caveat to say is, you know, the same way that we saw, you know, mass growth of roads and kind of infrastructure around the country, the same way that you could, if you keep investing, you'll, you'll see those increases come even more, as well. So it's just the start. I think this is the kind of the key point. And, you know, this has only really been what I've been in the industry for what five or six years intended, specifically around the world of transportation planning. And I've, I've read your in as another student of history, read your history of bike lanes, and what we're seeing is nothing new. You know, this obviously happened in the 1920s, as you've written about, it's happened, you know, the early 1950s. And we hope that obviously, this bike boom is going to continue, but we know that the secret to that is obviously infrastructure, but the extra secret sauce and I'm gonna say this with my Strava hat on so apologies is that you know, other people keep other people motivated. And that's where Strava comes into it as a motivation machine. Carlton Reid 35:06 So that game, gamification of it almost. Exactly, which is a good segue, thank you very much into my next question, which will be at the White House. So that's a that's a gamification, so, so just tell me exactly I know it's not UK, but this is a, this is a podcast that goes ... it's very popular in America. So Strava, not Strava Metro, but Strava is working with the White House on something. So just tell us what what you're doing. And then the gameifacation angle of that? Tom Knights 35:34 Yeah. So from obviously, my understanding internally of the team that's been working on that is very similar to other kind of projects or campaigns, or let's say gamification, or challenges that we would work on this time, though, there's obviously a social impact cause attached to it, I think what's happened and from what I understand is that the White House, obviously have a campaign or a kind of cause that they're looking to mobilise the community on, they had a commercial partner in work, which is, you know, obviously, kind of, I suppose, helping to kind of measure that through the through the wearable side. But the White House is partnering with Strava, to support physical activity, as part of its challenges to end hunger and build healthier communities. Now, as part of the social impact strategy, let's say the call to action is to raise awareness of that campaign through movement. And obviously, that movement there is on Strava. And it's very similar to lots of other campaigns that we might work with, from brands, but also also other charities, you know, that might want to also mobilise their community on Strava, through that kind of challenge format. Carlton Reid 36:38 So that's a US initiative. Obviously, it's the White House as in the White House. What other stuff might you be doing UK or maybe even worldwide, similar to that? Tom Knights 36:50 Well, I think ultimately, it's if if we've done our job, right, and you know, the more people that learn about these challenges for good for social impact, we hope that people will start to see Strava as a platform, where they can actually start to tell their message to what's a very engaged community. You know, like I say, not every cyclist is on Strava. But we do have, you know, in the UK, again, I'm going to correct myself on every one in seven adults has joined Strava, or something around 15% of the population. So that's not everyone, but it is a very engaged audience. It's bonkers, actually. So how many What's that in millions? Is that like 10 million downloads or something, I will come back with some specific figures. And James can help with that. On on, on our team, but Yeah, certainly, we obviously are in the millions of users in the UK. And of course, that's a really engaged community who are using Strava a for their movement, but also then can attach that through a challenge for a social impact campaign, or brand campaign. And again, these challenges are completely optional for people to dive into should they wish to. And I think that's one of the kind of key things to get at the Strava community, you know, having that say and what they do, and that's what's probably kept people coming back stronger over time, is that they get they have a choice in what they can join. And the challenges that the the team in Bristol, who in the UK run those operations for similar to the White House challenge, they do a fantastic job of making sure that there's some really exciting challenges to come onto the platform and keep people motivated. Carlton Reid 38:26 So can you now tell me the different pricing options, so people are like, they've got the free version? They maybe like me that don't. They will now start using the free version a bit more for the reasons we've discussed before. But if you wanted to up the game, what would you be paying? And what would you be getting? Tom Knights 38:46 So for UK based users, obviously Strava premium is an option and that it costs £8.99 per month, or £54.99 per year. Obviously, there's a freemium model, in terms of the kind of ability to join Strava and not have to, like, say, necessarily choose to subscribe. But again, the compelling products, and the opportunity that the product team in the US and all the amazing kind of engineers that work on Strava have built an experience that should you wish to subscribe. There's a really compelling reason to mostly through our amazing routing, mapping discovery tools, looking at new routes to explore. Obviously, like saying you've got access to technical data, should you wish to kind of see things like your heart rate and health and kind of segments and leaderboards, etc. So there's something on Strava for a lot of folks, and of course, you know, that community element and clubs and groups is really exciting. And another way for local authorities and governments to really drive engagement back to Metro, for example. Carlton Reid 39:54 And then you got things like integration with fat map so you can like do all sorts of stuff with that as well because it's Strava. Did you buy fat map? Is that was that? Tom Knights 40:02 Yeah, so there was a strategic acquisition of fat map and you know, the the, that's the exact date has been going on for the last year. So again, all these amazing tools and some mapping tools are such a good driver for people to discover the world around them. And I think that's what's really exciting is that, you know, yes, you might go on a bike ride and you know, kind of cycle from A to B on one of the cycle highways. But at the weekend, that same bike hopefully, is being used to then go, that that route is quite interesting, or I saw my friend do that route. You know, the other day that looks like I could probably do that I've got a spare couple of hours. And it's basically just keeping people active. Again, you've probably heard this one for every minute spent on Strava, you can attribute 30 minutes of activity back to your kind of daily life. So rather than that, and that's because you could you look at heat map, you see, you're in an unusual destination, you don't you're you're at your bike, and you fire up the heat map. It's like, everybody's gone that way. That way, then is that what you mean? Yeah, essentially, you know, like I say, you might, or it might just be on your activity feed that, you know, kind of been suggested a route or suggested a, an area to kind of move through. And I think that's what's really exciting is when you get somewhere new, you know that there's a community, because obviously, we're a global community that has cycled there before. And I say you can either look at the heat map, or you might be able to see someone's route. And they've recommended it as a kind of place to ride. That inspiration you get from not just like, say, scrolling through maybe another social network or Doom scrolling, should I say, hopefully, that movement and inspiration of people being active for something that's going to be a positive driver for people being, you know, engaged on Strava. Carlton Reid 41:44 There is another active travel analogy, which sometimes gets wheeled out. And that is, you can't tell why you need a bridge from the number of people swimming across the river. Because they aren't going to swim across the river with a bike, they probably aren't going to swim across the river full stop. But when you put a bridge in it suddenly get, you know, the heat map would go crazy. But once you put the bridge in, so is any of your cleverness your your text, can any of it can I spot? Well, if you only had something here, it would open up, you know, is this something that you can pinpoint that you can say that a bridge analogy can be used? Tom Knights 42:25 Absolutely. And thank you so much for asking that, because that's something we just updated last year in our metro product that obviously the planners and the transportation teams can see. And a lot of it ties back into some of the the kind of accessibility transportation equity, environmental racism that we talked about. What we've shown is that, when you put a pin on the map, we've also been able to kind of draw almost like a kind of circle around what's accessible within say, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 30 minutes, etc. And people can see data within that kind of circle, which, again, will show you that where there's a massive motorway with no bridge crossing, that's that part of the community can't access the park on the other side of it, or where there's, for example, a big brownfield site where there's been industrial use, it's not safe to cycle through. So people have kind of diverted around it, we had a really good example, actually, recently in Germany, where, you know, there was a curb on the side of a bike lane. And you could see very clearly actually three desire lines on the on the actual grass and the verge that people were kind of going off this curb through the woods to kind of cut out maybe a mile. And again, using Strava, Metro, this German transportation team who are based in Frankfurt, actually, I'll share the example with you because it's fascinating see how even at a really small local level, these little changes can make a massive difference. And they're not expensive to do, I think it only cost them something a couple of 1000 euros to drop the curb, because they then saw that that was having an impact on where people were then cycling. So you know, the famous analogy of when it snows, you can really see the designs of cars. Actually, when you look at the design on the heat map, and then in turn, look at that on Strava, you can start to see Oh, that's interesting. And again, another great example that was Hartfordshire county council had a bicycle counsellor in one location. And they realised that the Strava count was actually higher than the bicycle counter. And they thought well hold on what's happening there. And actually, there was a kind of dangerous crossing just slightly further up from this bicycle counter. And they were able to then use the Strava data to kind of, I suppose understand that actually, people were going this way because it was a safer journey. And that's the these are the kind of insights that yes, we want to do the big high level projects and you know, make sure that we get new infrastructure and cycleways across major cities. But actually the really exciting ones when local advocacy groups or local councils who don't necessarily have big budgets for you to accessing data can make these small changes and really improve these kind of everyday life for their community. Carlton Reid 44:56 Can the Netherlands which obviously every week, look Up to is like, the absolute nirvana of cycling. Do you like do you have like, Dutch people go, Oh, we could use this. It's like, Jesus, they even removing even more, you haven't done so. So basically, can you improve the Dutch cycle network? Tom Knights 45:15 Yeah, definitely. And actually, we've had some interesting conversations with the folks over in Copenhagen, and obviously, in Amsterdam, and across the Netherlands as well. So not just Denmark and Holland. But, of course, the Netherlands is such a stays a bellwether of the cycling industry, but they're always looking at new ways to improve, you know, the technology that they're using and counting data. We are in Leuven, just at the end of November for the policy network events. And again, we are understanding that the kind of technical university they are leaving, we've been using metro to kind of understand, you know, and this is a really forward thinking Belgium city, which has got great cycle access, but they still need data to understand and counter. So rather than, you know, developing another app to count people, and getting the community to download it, they've seen that correlation between actually Strava and Strava, Metro. So again, they don't need to necessarily go and kind of reinvent the wheel, so to speak with, you know, building another kind of engagement tool with local community to get them to join, because Metro is hopefully fulfilling that service. Carlton Reid 46:20 Brilliant, Tom that's been absolutely fascinating. And we could go on for a good amount of time, probably on Classics literature, even while we discussed, what's your Roman Empire? Yes, exactly. But we can't, because we people just won't listen to 10 hours of us chatting away. Tom Knights 46:42 I'm sure they will. Carlton Reid 46:43 Now, could you tell us where people can find out? I'm sure people know where you can get onto Strava. But how they find out about Strava Metro, and and maybe how they can contact you? Tom Knights 46:56 Yeah, definitely. So the best way to get in touch with myself and travel metric is on metro.strava.com. And then on that website, you'll be able to learn more about case studies about how cities how researchers, communities have used the actual kind of practical steps of the data. There's also some frequently asked questions on there about you know, privacy and how the data is used, etc. And then most importantly, there's an apply button. So you can click apply for access. And then what we ask is that a you're a organisation that is involved in working to improve active transportation. If you're a consultancy, or an engineering firm, we also accept those applications as well. As long as you're under contract with say, for example, the local government or the city authority, we know that Metro kind of appearing as a line item as it were. And then, again, like saying, at its source, transportation planners around the world can can access, we ask that you use a work email, not a Gmail email. So normally an org or dot.gov, etc. And then just a short abstract, essentially, of how you're going to use the data. And so then we know that it's being used for a positive kind of cause, and then you will give you access to the area of interest that you've selected. Be it London, Birmingham, Somerset, wherever it is, as long as there's been Strava activity, you can start to really start to see trends and patterns, then hopefully feed that into other datasets to build the infrastructure. Carlton Reid 48:20 And Nick.Ferrari@LBC.co.uk or whatever his email address will just be rejected out of hand, that's nefarious use? Tom Knights 48:28 Yeah, I reserve the right not to comment on on LBC and Nick. Carlton Reid 48:34 Thanks for listening to Episode 349 of the Spokesen podcast brought to you in association with Tern bicycles. Show notes and more can be found at the-spokesmen.com The next episode – 350 – will be out next month. Meanwhile, get out there and ride ...

Lesley Logan takes us on a journey of celebration and introspection in this episode where she highlights the role of rest and perseverance in entrepreneurship. Uncover the benefits of trusting your instincts, taking it slow before moving forward, and acknowledging your inner wisdom. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co. And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:The significance of breaks to energize your well-being.Perseverance to overcome the challenges in starting a businessWhy trust your instincts and take your time before moving on. Recognize and affirm your innate wisdom beyond mere knowledge.Episode References/Links:Mentions, Mary Dellanina, an agency memberMentions, Bianca Filoteo, an agency member  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. Get your free Athletic Greens 1 year supply of Vitamin D3+K2 and 5 free travel packsGet your discount for some Toe Sox using the code: LESLEY Be It Till You See It Podcast SurveyBe in the know with all the workshops at OPCBe a part of Lesley's Pilates MentorshipFREE Ditching Busy Webinar  Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable Pilates Follow Us on Social Media:InstagramFacebookLinkedIn  Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  It's Fuck Yeah Friday. Brad Crowell 0:01  Fuck yeah.  Lesley Logan 0:02  Get ready for some wins. Lesley Logan 0:05  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.  Lesley Logan 0:46  Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It podcast. Today is a FYF, it's a Fuck Yeah Friday, it's a day where we celebrate a win of yours, a win of mine and a little affirmation to kick off our weekend and to give ourselves permission to be exactly where we are and who we are and be celebrating the little things because sometimes it's the little things that really take off and it's the little things that put you exactly where you need to be. So I'm so excited for today because we are halfway through March. Holy, holy, frickin molly, right, holy, how did that happen? Lesley Logan 1:17  So okay, let me get to your win first because it's so fun to share yours and this is from agency member Mary Dellanina. And she said FYF I took two weeks off to play in the sunshine of California, not having the money come in for two weeks is difficult, but having the space to journal, go to other Pilates studios, hike by and re-energize my mind and body will benefit me and my students. Had many people signed up for classes while I was away and two new students will be coming next week, happy they're looking at the weeks ahead of them. Students fill the slots up by snowbirds. And I'm so happy the spots filled, resting poolside today and soaking up the vitamin D. I love this Mary. Was just here at the house for a retreat that I had for business owners, we had a small invite-only business retreat here, which is I'll get more into that with my win. But I love it because one of the things we focused on the agency members is being able to take time off for themselves and or for their business and get paid to do it. And so it can be hard to like not see the money come in. But actually it already came in because you got paid for this time off the way that we work with our teachers with their magic calculator. So way to go, Mary.Lesley Logan 2:25  One more win. I'm going to share this because I have a few in. This one's from Bianca Filoteo. FYF got an amazing five-star Google review from a client we're working with since September. And celebrating one year of opening my studio, revenue this month was higher than last year. So 2024 is off to a great start. That's right, it is. Congratulations, happy anniversary of your studio. The first two years are the hardest. So way to go. It's so, so hard to open up a space, especially when you don't have the clientele yet. So congrats, Bianca, you deserve that five-star review. Lesley Logan 2:55  Okay, so my win is the business retreat. It is, I had, if you were a part of the FYFs a couple of weeks ago, you knew I had a Pilates retreat, then we actually went for the Pilates retreat, business retreat into the (inaudible). So we actually did two retreats in one week here at the house. So humongous undertaking. The reason I wanted to do it that way, though, is because I didn't want people to fly here twice. And I knew a lot of people would stay for the whole week. And so, so many people would say, nope, spread those apart, you can't do it. But we did it. And we did it via waitlist. And we did it without public promotion. And we did it in a way that served the people who are coming really easy for them to fly at one time instead of two times. And so that is just a humongous win. It's like sometimes the advice out there is to just do things safely. And um, and yes, you should always consider the risks that are there. But you also have to listen to your gut. And so I'm just so happy I listened to my gut. And for a lot of people asking if we're doing another business retreat or another Pilates retreat here at the house? And the answer is I can't tell you right now. And that's also a second win. It is okay to just celebrate what you did do and not move so far so fast to get to the next thing. I'm sitting in the celebration of how incredibly impactful and just amazing it was to have all those women here at the house and learning about their business and diving in and supporting them and taking time off and creating space for them to learn about what their business needs are and to give them that. And they're just incredible. And I can't wait to see what happens with our business. The first time we did the business retreat, we had people open up studios and they doubled their income a year later. And so I'm just so proud of the results that we get. And yes, that may mean that we should have another one already. But the truth is, that's not how it works. There's so much in just sitting still. And that was last week's affirmation, right? Lesley Logan 4:51  So this week's affirmation for you to repeat to yourself is I hold wisdom beyond knowledge. I hold wisdom beyond knowledge. Right? You can know something and you can really know something. So you can take in all the information in the world but what wisdom do you have? I have wisdom beyond knowledge. Thank you so much for listening to the Be It Pod. You are why we do this and I'm so grateful for you and happy FYF. What's your win? Make sure you send it to the Be It Pod, we want to shout it out to you. Lesley Logan 5:23  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day.  Lesley Logan 5:51  Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod. Brad Crowell 6:06  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell. Lesley Logan 6:10  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co. Brad Crowell 6:15  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi. Lesley Logan 6:22  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals. Brad Crowell 6:25  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time. Unknown Speaker 6:33  OfSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Erratic weather like deluge rain, longer falls, and patches of drought disrupt vinifera's adaptation to long-sustained winters. Jason Londo, Associate Professor of Horticulture in the School of Integrative Plant Sciences at Cornell AgriTech explains how big weather changes in the Pacific North East can cause vines to wake up earlier posing a risk to freeze or frost damage. By researching acclimation and deacclimation, Jason is working to breed and select varieties for enhanced cold resistance, drought resistance, pest resistance, plus good fruit quality. In the future, to reduce inputs in vineyards and increase economic sustainability we need to put the right grape in the right climate.  Resources:         135: Cold Hardiness of Grapevines Cold Hardiness prediction model and monitoring website for the Eastern US Foliar Applied Abscisic Acid Increases ‘Chardonnay' Grapevine Bud Freezing Tolerance during Autumn Cold Acclimation Jason Londo Jason Londo's Recent Publications Vitis Underground: NSF-PGRP project looking at rootstock-scion interaction across multiple environments. Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is Jason Londo. He is Associate Professor of horticulture in the School of integrative Plant Sciences at Cornell agritech. We're gonna talk about some pretty cool stuff today. Thanks for coming on the show. Jason,   Jason Londo  0:11  Thank you for having me.   Craig Macmillan  0:12  Your work tends to center around identifying things like climate induced disorders, developing medication methods, improving resiliency and sustainability of crops like apples and grapes. How did you become interested in that that's a pretty interesting area.   Unknown Speaker  0:26  Originally, I was mostly interested in how plants adapt to stress just in general plants, because they're stuck to the ground that the seed lands on they are forced with so many complicated life's challenges, that it's really amazing what a plant can do in the face of stress. And so my curiosity has always been trying to figure out those strategies. But climate induced part of it is sort of reality striking into my passion, right? We know the climate is shifting, and it is shifting those stresses in a way that our plants can't necessarily respond in the same way that they used to, particularly because of the rate of climate change. So that's how I got interested in this topic, just trying to figure out how plants work when they're stressed out.   Craig Macmillan  1:13  And you're interested in plants in general. And then now you're focusing on specific crops, right?   Jason Londo  1:18  Yes, indeed, I started out originally working on endangered mints. If you can imagine that. Then I worked on rice. Then I worked on canola and I landed and fruit crops. And so yeah, lots of lots of diversity in those systems. All those plants have different stresses.   Craig Macmillan  1:35  They're all different families. I mean, he really jumped around.   Jason Londo  1:37  Oh, yeah. One of the coolest things about working in plant stress is plants across different clades evolved different ways of handling maybe the same stress. And you can learn a lot about sort of the limitations of stress response and the advantages and opportunities when you work across a lot of different systems. And so it makes for a tricky CV, because my publications kind of snake all over the place. But from trying to figure out the next strategy or figure out the next experiment, I feel like it's a real positive to have that background.   Craig Macmillan  2:13  I want to go back for a second because I think this is an important topic. And you mentioned clade. What is a clade? And how does that apply to looking at plant stress?   Jason Londo  2:24  And its most basic a clade is a group of plants that belong to the same sort of evolutionary history, and without getting into the real jargony. And the fights between what makes a species and what doesn't make a species. The basic concept is an evolutionary group. And so when I talk about plant stress strategies and differences between clades if we think about rice, it's a monocot. And so it has a completely different evolutionary lineage from most of our dicot fruit crops. Canola is a dicot it's a mustard. Both rice and canola are typically annualized, maybe sometimes there's a perennial version, when we talk about fruit crops, we're talking about, in my case, grapes and apples, Woody perennials, so dicot species that persists for many, many years. And so the strategies that are successful for for getting through a stressful situation can vary very much by those different life histories.   Craig Macmillan  3:24  We're kind of talking about stresses in general, what are particular stresses on things like apples and grapes that you're looking at.   Jason Londo  3:29  So in my program, it has a climate adaptation focus. And we all know that the main drivers behind climate change are temperature and precipitation. And here in the northeast, we do have a benefit in that we've got some room to get warm before it gets uncomfortable. And we have plenty of rain. But what we're seeing here is big changes in our winter weather shifts in our phonology. So the spring is coming earlier, the fall is coming later. And then we're also having big changes in precipitation. So little patches of drought, deluge, rain, and so very different from California, where things may be drying out. We're drying out, but in a very episodic sort of pattern. And the systems here are not built on drought management. They're not built so much on water logging either, although we do use tiling in the fields to Drain off excess water. And so when we're talking about climate impacts, here are primarily talking about temperature and shifts in precipitation.    I know that you've been looking at cold hardiness. What has been the pattern? What's the change that's happening in the Northeast as far as cold goes?   Yeah, so most of my career, as a as a PI has been in cold hardiness and cold stress response in grapes. I spent 10 years at the USDA as a geneticist, particularly diving into this topic, and even in those 10 years years I've seen a major shift in the intensity of our winters they are getting much more mild, but they're also coming very erratic. And so we're having large swings in temperature. I'm sure your listeners are familiar with the concept of a polar vortex we've had enough of them. Now, that is pretty common. When you take a perennial crops like grape, and you put it through winter, it's it's adapted to a long, sustained winter, not a real chaotic, episodic type winter where it gets warm and cold and warm than cold. The the complex molecular components of what tells the grape that it's safe to wake up don't function as well when you have those erratic temperatures. And so we're seeing, in general more mild, which is good for baseline cold hardiness, but also an uptick in sort of chaos. And that's not good for for any form of cold hardiness. And it particularly affects late winter, because the the plants wake up. As they're coming into spring, they respond to heat. And when you have weird weather in that really late winter, early spring, they can wake up too early and then suffer a lot of freeze damage or frost damage if they happen to break bud.   Craig Macmillan  6:11  What is the mechanism around freeze damage? I've interviewed some folks from like Michigan and Iowa and Ohio, we don't have freeze damage in California very much Washington, obviously. What are the parameters there? How cold for how long? And what's the actual mechanism of damage to the volume?   Jason Londo  6:29  Yeah, great questions. Very complicated questions.   Craig Macmillan  6:35  That's why we're here.   Jason Londo  6:35  Yeah, yeah. All grapes gain cold hardiness in the winter, regardless of where they are, it's a part of going dormant and making it through winter. The biggest changes that we see in the vine is that the buds will isolate from the vasculature. And so the little connections that come from the xylem and the phloem, into the bud, they actually get clogged up with pectins. And so you have to think of the bud is sort of like a little island tissue, it's not connected to the cane during winter. Once the bud does that it's able to gain cold hardiness and traverse winter. And that process is called acclamation. And so the buds gain a greater and greater ability to survive lower and lower temperatures. We don't know exactly how all of it works. But it's a mixture of making more sugars and making more Ozma protectant inside the buds so that water freezes at lower temperatures and also controlled dehydration. So the more you can dehydrate a tissue, the less likely ice crystals will form in pure water. But and we don't know how they do this. And it's quite magical if you think about it, but they're able to suck out all of this internal water so that it is less and less likely for water to freeze inside the cell. If they can keep the ice crystals from forming inside the cell. We call that cold hardiness that they they are surviving freeze damage, we can measure the temperature that reaches that defense. And you've had other speakers on your show that have talked about cold hardiness. It's called differential thermal analysis. And we basically measure the precise temperature where the water freezes through some tricks of thermodynamics, that cold hardiness failure point changes throughout the whole winter, and it changes by the location that the grape is growing in. What we do know about the system is that it takes oscillating temperatures to gain cold hardiness. So it has to get warm than cold warm than cold, warm than cold and progressively colder in order to ramp down and gain cold hardiness, then it has to stay cold for the cold hardiness to sort of hang out at the maximum cold hardiness. And that maximum cold heartedness is going to differ by region. So here in New York, something like Chardonnay will reach a maximum cold hardiness of maybe negative 27 Celsius. I cannot do the Fahrenheit conversion,.   Craig Macmillan  9:00  That's fine. That's fine.   Jason Londo  9:03  But say, say negative 27 Fahrenheit, whereas in California, it may not gain more than negative 20. And that's because it just doesn't get pushed. As you go through winter. You go through a whole bunch of other stuff with dormancy chilling our requirement, and that changes the way that the bud responds to temperature. And you enter a phase called Eco dormancy, which is now resistance to freezing based on how cold the vineyard is. And so when you get warm spikes in late winter, when the buds are eco dormant. They think those are a little preview that it's springtime and so they lose their cold heartedness really quickly they start reabsorbing that water, and they'll freeze that warmer and warmer temperatures. And so that's really the most dangerous time in this sort of climate chaos. When you think about winter that late winter period is when the vines are reacting with their adaptive complex for 1000s of years. When it started to warm up. It meant it was spring and now they're starting To think, okay, spring is coming. But we're still in February in New York, maybe in. In California. It's more like it's January and you're getting a warming event. And they all move right towards bud break. And then of course, they can get hit pretty hard by a leak freeze or a frost.   Craig Macmillan  10:15  Yeah, exactly. I'm guessing this varies by variety.   Jason Londo  10:19  Yes, very much. So, vinifera varieties are typically less hardy than the North American adapted varieties, the, the hybrid varieties is often gets used. I don't particularly like the word hybrid. But these cold climate grapes that have been bred by University of Minnesota and Cornell, they tend to have greater maximum cold hardiness. But they also tend to wake up in the spring much faster. And that's partly because of the genetic background that those hybrids were made from. When you breed with species that come from the far north, like Vitis riparia, those species are adapted to a very short growing season, which means as soon as it's warm enough to start growing, they go for it to try to get through their entire cycle. So now we're starting to see that there are some potential issues with climate change when we think about hybrid varieties that use those those northern species, and that they may be more prone to frost damage in the future.   Craig Macmillan  11:15  Oh, really, that's I wouldn't have thought that I would have thought the opposite. So obviously, we have different species. So we have some genetic differences between what I'll call wild grapes or native grapes, the Oh, invasive plant itis vinifera that has been  thrown around. What can we learn by looking at the genetics of native North American varieties?   Jason Londo  11:38  from a cold hardiness perspective,   Craig Macmillan  11:40  cold hardness, just in general drought resistance, pest resistance?   Jason Londo  11:44  Well, in general, they're a massive resource for improvement, which depends on who is who's calling a species species. But there may be up to 20 Different wild species in North America. And each of those wild species has a different evolutionary trajectory that has given it the ability to create adaptive gene complexes, that could be useful in viticulture, as we have shifting climate, away from what maybe vinifera likes, hot and dry into further northern latitudes, you know, that if the California industry has to start moving up in latitude or up in altitude, we start integrating different stresses that maybe those vines haven't been exposed to in their evolutionary history, you know, from Europe. And so these wild species just have these potentially novel genes, potentially novel pathways where genes are interacting with one another, that give vines a greater plasticity. And so this concept of plasticity is if you take an individual and you put it in environment a, and it grows to size 10, but you put it in environment B and it grows to size 20. The difference there is the plasticity between those two environments. And we really, if we want sustainable viticulture, what we want to encourage is using cultivars that have maximal plasticity. So as the environment shifts around them, they're still able to give you the same yield the same sugars, the same quality, you know, within a within an error bar anyway, they're the most resilient over time. And incorporating traits and pathways that come from wild grapes can help build that plasticity in the genetic background coming from the European great.   Craig Macmillan  13:23  So we're talking about crosses, we're talking about taking a native plant and then vinifera crossing to create something new. You had said that you don't know you don't care for the word hybrid. Why not? That's interesting to me.   Jason Londo  13:35  Because it has a negative connotation in the wine drinker. realm, right people think of hybrids as lower quality as not vinifera, so lesser. And I think I'm not an enologists. I'm not a viticulturalists. So I want to be careful on whose toes I mash. But if we're talking about sustainability of a crop through an erratic climate, we can do a lot with vinifera we can we can mitigate climate change a lot with vinifera, but at some point, the inputs may become too much to make it a sustainable crop and then we need to be able to move to adapted varieties. And we can adapt the wine quality from vinifera to climate chaos, by breeding and and selecting for enhanced cold resistance, enhanced drought resistance, enhance pest resistance, and good fruit quality. That's a little bit of a soapbox. But when people say hybrid, it's like lesser, but it's, in my opinion, it's more we're taking something great. And we are increasing its plasticity across the the country across the growing zones. We are giving it a chance to grow in more regions reach more local communities create a bigger fan base. So I get really my hackles got up because there is amazing hybrid based on Climate adapted based wines, and winemakers. And when we use the word hybrid people just automatically in their mind shifted into lesser. And I think that's unfortunate. I think it's something that we need to work actively as an industry against, because a lot of those particular disease resistance traits are coming from wild germ plasm. That is not in the European grape. And we just can't solve all our problems with that one species.   Craig Macmillan  15:30  So the kinds of traits that we're talking about these environmental adaptations, or acclamations, these will be polygenic trades, how do you find these? I'm assuming that you're looking for those specific genetic information to say, Yeah, this is the plant that I want to use in my my breeding program. What does that look like? How do you do that?   Jason Londo  15:49  So the approaches are very similar to when you're working on single locus traits. And so disease resistance and fruit color are good examples of traits that often can be found in single locus examples, again, would be fruit color, or sort of run one disease resistance, there's a whole bunch of different disease resistance was like polygenic traits can be found the same way, you have to make a cross between two different grapes that have different phenotypes. And so that might be a drug sensitive, and a drought tolerant individual. And you plant out a whole lot of baby grapes 200, 300 progeny from that cross, and then you score them with phenotypes. And with polygenic traits, it's a lot harder to find them sometimes, because in that group of, say, 300, babies, you're not looking for the movement of one gene. In that background, you're looking for maybe the movement of five to 10 different genes. And that means instead of getting a light switch kind of trait, red or white fruit, you're getting a little bit more drought resistant, a whole lot more drought resistant, but there is a gradient, right? When you have a gradient for a phenotype, you need a lot more grape babies in order to get the statistical support to say, hey, this piece of the genome right here, this makes a grape, a little bit more drought resistant. And over here, this piece of the genome does the same thing. And when you put them together, they either add up one plus one, or sometimes they multiply two times two, you use the same approaches, it's typically a little trickier. And you got to kind of do a couple extra years of screening. But it's the same basic playbook to track down those different traits. And we have to do a lot of different phenotypes for drought response, you might be looking for the ability to root deeper, have bigger root masses, you might be looking at bigger hydraulic conductance in the trunk, you might be looking at betters to model control. You might be looking at pyres to model density or lowers to model density, you could be looking at thicker or thinner leaves. So you can imagine if there's lots of ways to be more drought resistant. There's lots of genes that help you in that pursuit. You need a lot of baby grapes in order to find all those little pockets where those genes come together and give you a statistical shift and in the phenotype.   Craig Macmillan  18:10  So you're able to identify these are you using something like qualitative trait?   Jason Londo  18:13  Exactly. Quantitative trait loci?   Craig Macmillan  18:16  Yes, exactly. So that helps speed the process up a little bit. Maybe.   Unknown Speaker  18:20  Yeah, so so QTL mapping, quantitative trait loci mapping is the probably the dominant way that we map traits. There's another way called GWAS, genome wide association studies, is built on the same concept where you have a big enough population of either grape babies or in the case of GWAS its diversity. So you'd say, let's say you had 200 Different Vitis riparias instead of 200. Babies, the principle is the same. You are looking for across all of those vines, statistical association between a specific part of the genome and a phenotype to like make it really simple. In 200 babies, grape babies, you want to have enhanced drought resistance. You let's say we take a measurement of carbon isotope concentration and so that carbon isotopes tell you how often the stomates are open, right? So you do an experiment. And you drought stress your plants, and you use carbon isotopes as the phenotype and you say, Okay, this group of 75 individuals, they all shut their stomates right away, and this other group of 125, they kept their stomates open. So then in those two groups, you look at all the genetic markers that are in the background, right, which are like little signposts across the genome. And you say, in this group of 75, which genetic markers do we see over and over and over again, outside of statistical randomness, right? And what that will give you a peek a QTL peak, if you're lucky, right, I'll give you a cue to help you can say hey, right here on chromosome four, every single baby in that pool has a has this set of markers, these five Mark occurs. So there must be a gene, somewhere near these five markers that contribute to closing your stomates. And so then extrapolate that out whatever trait you want to look at how whatever phenotype method you're using, maybe it's not carbon isotope, maybe it's leaf mass, maybe it's node number, I don't know, whatever that screening process is, the concept is the same. You have big enough population, a good genetic marker background, and a phenotype that you can measure. And you can find the statistical associations.   Craig Macmillan  20:32  And actually, that reminds me of something, how many chromosomes do grapes have?   Jason Londo  20:36  Well, bunch grapes have 19 muscadine. grapes have 20.   Craig Macmillan  20:39  That's a lot. Which means that there's a lot of genetic variation in the genome of these plants, then.   Jason Londo  20:47  Yeah, if you think about, I mean, grape is sort of a funky beast, because a lot of these varieties that we grow, they're all They're all of the arrays, we grow our clonal. And some of them are 1000s of years old, the same genetic individual from 7000 to 10,000 years ago, we still have around today, in that process, it's it's changed, right? There's mutations that happen in the field all the time. And so even thinking about genetic clones and thinking the idea of Chardonnay being around that long, it's changed in those 7000 years, just naturally. So when you think about comparing two different clones, or two different cultivars, or clones, there's something like 43,000 Different recognized genes in vitis vinifera, that number I can give you in the different wild species, because it varies by species, but roughly 40,000 at those 40,000 genes in a in a single individual, you can have up to two different copies, right. So you could have essentially 80,000 different alleles, then you go across, I don't know, what do we have 12,000 recognized cultivars or something like that? There are something like 60 Grape species. And so now imagine the amount of potential variation you have across that entire gene pool. And so yeah, the genetic diversity within the crop as a whole is incredible. There's a lot of room for improvement. And there's a lot of room for climate adaptation. Just takes a lot of grape babies to figure it out.   Craig Macmillan  22:12  And that brings us something else. And that is the the idea of mutation. One of the issues, I think that is a stumbling block, and you mentioned it, there is the consumer, if it's not Cabernet Sauvignon, can't call it Cabernet Sauvignon. I'm not as interesting, which is something that I think we need some help from the marketing world with. Because I agree with you very much. I think if we're going to have wine in the future, we're going to have to start thinking about things other than just the cultivars that we have. Now, can you do the same kind of work with but mutation? Can you take a cane grew from a button, plant that out and look for differences between the same plant?   Jason Londo  22:53  Yeah, so you're basically talking about clonal selection clonal selection is practice worldwide by different regions, always with this eye towards making something that we currently have a little bit better or a little bit more unique, right, somatic mutations, random mutations occur in the genetic background all the time. And they often occur in response to stress, which is a really interesting angle, if you think about climate stress. So these mutations happen all the time in the background. Frequently, they will land on pieces of DNA that don't do anything that we know up. I don't want to say that no DNA is unimportant, that there are sections that we don't believe are that important. We call these non coding regions are sometimes introns. When you have a mutation in that area, sometimes there's no effect on the vine at all. And that's happening all the time in the fields. Right now. If you think about all the 1000s to millions of cab sauv vines that are growing in the world, we like to think of them even if you pick a single clone as the same genetic individual. And that is, that's simply not possible. There's so much background mutation going on in those parts of the DNA that don't give us any change in phenotype. There's no way it's all the same. We'd like to simplify it. We'd like to simplify it for our drinking behavior, as well as you know, like our sanity. But yes, you can select for clonal variation. And clonal variation happens all the time when those changes happen to land in a gene producing region, exon or perhaps a promoter or, or even in a transposable element to make a piece of DNA jump around the genome, we get a new clone, you can purposely create clones as well. So it happens naturally, but you can create clones on your own and mutational breeding is something that gets used in a lot of crop species in grapes it doesn't get used as often because it's modifying the base plant, right? So if you take Chardonnay and you want to increase his disease resistance, if it doesn't have a gene that you can break or change that would give it more disease resistance, then you can't create a clone with more disease resistance, right? You're working with a big a base plant that has limitations, but we have So we have a population where this was done it was it was done actually by the USDA by Dr. Amanda Garis. She no longer works for the USDA, but she worked here in Geneva. And they did a project where they took the variety of vignoles, which has a very compact cluster and tends to get a lot of rot. And they took a bunch of dormant canes with the buds, and they put it in a high powered X ray machine at the hospital and blasted it with X rays. What X ray damage does to DNA is it causes breaks between the double strands so all of our DNA and all our genes are wrapped up in in double stranded DNA. And when you do DNA damage with X ray mutagenesis, you break the two strands. And then when they heal themselves back together, it's often imperfect. And so they'll often lose a couple base pairs like there'll be a little piece get that gets nipped out. When you put those two pieces back together and repair, if that landed in exon, you can sometimes change the protein that would have been made by that exon or completely knocked the gene out in its entirety. Creating a clone, you're just doing it faster than nature is doing it on its own. We do it with a hospital X ray machine. And so with this method, they created about 1000 clones of vignoles. And they've made I think 10 selections out of that group that have bigger, looser clusters, so the berries are further spaced out. So they don't get damaged, they don't get as much rot. And I think those are now starting to make their way out into trials. There's an example of a very directed approach to creating a clone to fit fit a very specific viticultural problem that may or may not work for climate adaptation because of the polygenic aspect that you brought up before. Because if you break one gene and a poly genic, adaptive complex, it may not be enough to shift the entire physiology into a recognizably different pattern, it could work to make them less resilient, because you could break something that's really important. But breaking something that's important, but works out for you in the long run is just playing that randomizer lottery a little bit further. So it's doable. It can happen in nature, it can happen on purpose in our hands, but it is trickier for certain traits.   Craig Macmillan  27:21  So we're not going to X ray our way out of climate problems, basically, or diseases problems, right? Well, there may not be the right genetic information in the background of vinifera that even if we tried that, we'd have that set of genes that we would need, whereas we would have it in a native, native vine North American vine.   Jason Londo  27:42  And just a sheer a sheer number of breaks that you might have to make in order to shift the physiology enough to matter. These climate adaptation pathways are highly networked. They involve hormones, they involve sugar metabolism. And so if you really break something important, it's going to cause a really bad phenotype of death phenotype, you have to nudge the system enough in a specific direction to make a meaningful change. And so, given the complexity of the trade, it makes it harder. I don't want to say anything is impossible. I do think that there would be ways to make vinifera better, more plastic in the environment. I think the potential is there for vinifera to do better in a lot of climates. I don't know if directed mutagenesis is the most efficient way to do it. I mentioned is that random, right, you're breaking double stranded DNA at random, and then it's really healing and there's so many things have to work out for you to hit the right gene, have the right repair, you know, all of that sort of stuff that it's a method, but I don't I wouldn't say it's the most efficient method breeding with wild germ plasm is also a method, the key weakness there is then it's no longer Chardonnay, right from our wine drinking sort of our own personal biases on that situation. We outcross Chardonnay to make it more climate resilient. It's no longer Chardonnay. So it can't be sold as Chardonnay. And that itself creates a market pressure against changing it to something that's more resilient. And I think until the climate imparts an equal level of pain as consumer pressure, we won't get there. I don't think it's a question of if it will happen. It's a question of when.   Craig Macmillan  29:23  What kind of projects are you working on currently? You've mentioned experiments and breeding and it's now what do you what do you up to?   Jason Londo  29:29  So I have a pretty diverse program climate impacts is all season so we have a lot of winter projects. And we've covered some of that now trying to understand how Acclimation and deaacclimation work and if we can enhance it, we're working with but birth control. So if we could slow down deacclimation and delay by break, we could get around frost damage. And then I'm also working on a really big project is actually coming to an end where we've been looking at what the role of a rootstock is our mapping population concept that we talked about for QTL Mapping, we were talking about the scion, I have a project where we did that with the rootstock. And so we created a mapping population. The only part that is the grape babies is the roots. And we've grafted the same variety onto those roots. And then we're looking at how the different grape baby roots change the scions behavior. A really cool thing about this project is that we've replicated it clonally replicated it and grafted it in three different locations. So we have a vineyard in Missouri, a vineyard in South Dakota and a vineyard here in New York. And so across those three different environments, which are quite different, both in maximum temperature, minimum temperature and precipitation, we're learning so many cool things about what the roots can do to the same scion for your listeners, of course, they know grapes, so they know hopefully enough about grafting and that the rootstock and the scion are two different individuals. And they're mechanically grafted together. From a climate adaptation point of view, what you've done is you've taken an intact and adapted individual, and you've cut its head off, and then you've taken another climate adapted individual, and you've cut its legs off, and you've glued them together, and ask them to perform in the environment, which is just a wild, wild communication question. When the roots are experiencing one environment, and the shoot is experiencing another, how do they communicate? And then how does that affect our grape quality and wine quality? And so we're looking at drought response, can we increase the drought resistance of the Scion, based on the type of root it's on? Can we change the leaf nutrient profile, so the different ions that are taken up from the soil and how they're concentrated in the leaves. And of course, we don't really care about the leaves as much as we care about the fruit, the leaves are easy to work with. And we're even started working on wine quality. And so it looks like across our experiments, we might be able to optimize the rootstock and scion combinations we grow in different climates. To produce specific wind quality attributes, which is really cool.   Craig Macmillan  32:00  That is really cool. That is really cool. We're just about out of time. But I want to is there one thing on the on these topics that you would like or recommend to our listeners, or you'd like our listeners to know?   Jason Londo  32:11  Oh, well, I think their take home is is that we should all appreciate the new cultivars that come on the scene, whether they be from early regions like the the Eastern caucuses, something that we are not used to having in this country, or its climate adapted varieties that are bred in this country, and grown in these different regions. We need to do our best to open our minds not to does this grape or that grape tastes like cab sauv, or tastes like Chardonnay. But isn't it amazing what this grape tastes like period, because a lot of the the advances in resilience and sustainability that we can get out of either adopting new cultivars, shifting cultivars from climate to climate, or by using hybrid varieties in different regions, all of the benefits that we can get out of growing the right kind of grapes in the right climate, reduces inputs in the vineyard reduces inputs on the ecology. It increases the economic stability of rural communities. And it gives you pride in what the local region can produce. And I guess my take home would be is drink more adapted wines, enjoy them, figure out the nuances. Some of them are not great, but some of them are really great. drink more wine.   Craig Macmillan  33:33  Where can people find out more about you and your work?   Jason Londo  33:36  So the easiest way is just to Google my name and Cornell and that will take you right to my Cornell page. There's not a lot of information on my Cornell page, and I'm a big procrastinator on my personal website. But you can find my contact information there and certainly get a hold of me directly. If there's anything of interest. I will also send you some links that you can use to take listeners to the Vitis underground project, which is the NSF rootstock project I talked about, I can send you a link to we have a cold hardiness website where we post prediction models that we've built about cold hardiness across most of the Eastern US. We hope to expand that to be nationwide once once I get a stronger computer, but I can send you some links there. Yeah, I would say that that's probably the best places to find information on me and the program here. And if people are in town to come and see Cornell Agrotech and see some of the stuff in the field.   Craig Macmillan  34:30  I would love to pay a visit. I've interviewed a number of your colleagues there and there's so much cool stuff going on. really innovative and really groundbreaking feel like we're on the leading edge of a wave that some point is going to break again. Maybe we'll be drinking wines other than the ones we've been drinking. I can see that happening. Anyway. So our guest today was Jason Londo. He's Associate Professor of horticulture in the School of integrative Plant Sciences at Cornell agritech. Thank you.   Jason Londo  34:55  Thanks   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

Ecosystem Science combines biology, chemistry, and physics to model and predict responses like wine grape yield forecasting, water management, and disease vector mapping. Joshua Fisher, Associate Professor of Environmental Science & Policy at Schmid College of Science and Technology, Chapman University and science lead at Hydrosat explains how high-resolution data from space helps farmers plan for climate change. His research uses satellites to help growers understand how change their practices to succeed in their current location and predict future winegrowing regions around the world. Resources: 199: NASA Satellites Detect Grapevine Diseases from Space 191: CropManage: Improving the Precision of Water and Fertilizer Inputs Hydrosat Joshua Fisher Joshua Fisher on LinkedIn Joshua Fisher on Twitter Martha Anderson, Research Physical Scientist, USDA-ARS NASA Acres - applying satellite data solutions to the most pressing challenges facing U.S. agriculture NASA Earth Observatory NASA JPL (Jet Propulsion Laboratory) Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  And our guest today is Dr. Joshua Fisher. He is Associate Professor of Environmental Science and Policy at Chapman University, and also science lead with Hydrosat. And today, we're gonna be talking about ecosystem research that he's been doing in some modeling ideas. Thanks for being here, Joshua.   Joshua Fisher  0:16  Thanks for having me.   Craig Macmillan  0:17  Your area is broadly defined, I understand as Ecosystem Science, that'd be an accurate description of your professional life.   Joshua Fisher  0:25  Sure, yep.   Craig Macmillan  0:26  Before we get started, what exactly is Ecosystem Science?   Joshua Fisher  0:29  it's kind of a combination of many sciences. And it's a combination of biology, we got to understand plants, animals, in, you know, down to bacteria and fungi. It's a combination of chemistry, you know, we need to understand how different nutrients and water and carbon interact and transform and it's combination of physics in terms of how energy flows through the system and in heat, and how to model and predict responses of the biology and the chemistry through the physics. So I kind of got into Ecosystem Science or environmental science more broadly, because I was indecisive as a student and couldn't pick a science, like all the sciences, and   Craig Macmillan  1:10  I feel your pain.   Joshua Fisher  1:11  And I didn't want to just pick one. So I was looking around for a major that combine the sciences and environmental science was a good one and got me a chance to get outdoors.   Craig Macmillan  1:20  That's an interesting way to get into what are the applied aspects of this area? Like what are the things things are that you're interested in, in terms of like the applications, but what do you do, and then we'll talk about what you do.   Joshua Fisher  1:32  The applications are really interesting. And it's kind of a career trajectory to, I think, as a student, and as an early career scientist, it was really about doing science, with the applications kind of out there more broadly, for context, but not actually doing anything about anything other than coming up with the best science possible, coming up with the best models, launching satellites, developing new datasets and understanding the way the world works. But actually feeding back to society was something that I've really ramped up throughout my career. And I've seen that among my peers as well, you know, especially in terms of the science trajectory and science reward system, science rewards you for publications for getting grants, and for doing a bit of ivory tower research, it doesn't really reward you, promote you and sustain you for doing applied sciences. And that tends to be a luxury that one gets one when gets into mid career, which is where I'm at now. And it's a great aspect. It's a great privilege to be able to feed back to society, to help farmers, water managers, policy makers, communities, people of color, indigenous tribes, and so on. It's a different type of award. Now it's, it's a reward, that's a personal reward. Something that I feel, you know, really happy about satisfied when I go to sleep at night. And I, you know, have to do my part to change the system for the early career scientist of today, to be rewarded for those applications as well. But in terms of my Applied Science, nowadays, I use my technology that I've launched a space and I'm continuing to launch the space, especially on thermal imaging, to monitor plant stress and water stress, heat stress, and plants using that to help inform irrigation and agricultural crop management, forest management, wildfire, prediction response, even down to urban heat and public health. I have got work with environmental justice, and communities of color and using the data that I've launched to help to help sustain public health as well as environmental science and agriculture and food production and food security. So lots of great applications out there. I'm even working with volcanologist. Our technology to help predict volcanic eruption.   Craig Macmillan  3:43  Oh, wow.   Joshua Fisher  3:44  Incredible array, you know, there's geology as well, mineral exploration. So a lot of applications, aquaculture, you know, helping improve shellfish and diversity as well. So when it comes to what I've gotten myself into, or gotten yourself into Dr. Fisher, over the years a bit of that. And it just happens to be that what I do has a lot of the connections, it isn't very limited. And what I what I've been doing for the past decade has a lot on temperature and heat. And so anywhere there's a signal of heat or temperature, whether it's in crops, whether it's in urban settings, whether it's in volcanoes, whether it's in wildfire that temperature permeates everywhere. And my data have and my science have the ability to help not only the science, but also the applications across nearly in the entire earth system.   Craig Macmillan  4:35  All right now, what are you talking about heat you're looking at this, we're talking about what you do so like on any given day, and I know everybody has these crazy lives where we do one thing on Tuesday and something completely different on Wednesday, but you are scientists, scientists work with data. Your data is coming from space. How did you get into that? I know you've worked on a couple of other or a couple of projects both now When in the past with information data collected from sapce, and I want to know more about that, what kind of data? How's it collected? How's it work? Exactly, yeah, how does somebody get into terrestrial data scientist?   Joshua Fisher  5:14  How does someone go from having one's head in the dirt to having one's head in space?   Craig Macmillan  5:21  And then then back in the dirt sounds like.   Unknown Speaker  5:24  I'm back in the dirt again. Back to my college days, environmental science, started doing undergraduate research at Berkeley, where I was at, mostly because as an undergrad, I was like, Why? Why did I go to Berkeley, you know, it's just a number in a class. It's huge, not the best teaching, the reputation of Berkeley is really for the research. So I said, Well, if I'm going to be here, I better get involved in research. And I got involved in research as an undergrad, and started getting into the Environmental Modeling. And I liked it so much that I continued on at Berkeley for my PhD, and my PhD, and continued Environmental Modeling side. But I was like, well, let's add a new tool to my toolkit. And let's start playing with satellites. Because really, they were just cool toys in the sky, I had really no other kind of ambition, other than to learn how to pick up a new tool and play with it.   Craig Macmillan  6:12  I've seen some really pretty pictures, if you go to the NASA Earth Observatory page, and with all their links and stuff there. It's like a Christmas tree with presents under it. It's just all these pretty colors and all these amazing things. So I can see how you could get drawn into it.   Joshua Fisher  6:27  Yeah, I mean, when you get into all the beautiful imagery, not only in the visible spectrum, but across the medic spectrum, you start to wonder if you are looking at science or art, that distinction that polarization between art and science really starts to blur. And you forget, what are you doing? Are you doing art? Are you doing science? And really, you're doing both. And it's all together. And I've been doing a lot of art, science and synergies over the year as well, which I'm happy to talk to you after I answer your first question, which is how I got into it. So playing with cool satellites, cool toys in the sky, interested in water, because I grew up in California and Alaska, kind of two, polar opposites of environmental extremes. And you know, when I was a kid, we were putting low flow showerheads, you know, in my showers in Los Angeles, where I grew up with my mother. And then my parents split when I was little, my dad lived in Alaska. And when I went to visit my dad, Alaska, we were putting on high flow showerheads, as a kid just kind of flying back and forth. It made me wonder how the world worked. And so growing up in California, especially under droughts and water shortages, as I got into college, I got involved in interested in being able to predict water and how much water we need. We had been able to measure rainfall and snow and groundwater, but not the evaporation components so much. And so that was where the models had to come into play. Because we couldn't measure it. We had a model that we had predicted based on other things. So when I started playing with satellites, my PhD, I was started wondering, I wonder if we could get at evapotranspiration from satellite remote sensing. And so that became the focus of my PhD. And sure enough, I was able to do it at the end of a nice long doctorate. So then right around that time, climate change really blew up. And I was in a unique place where I was observing the earth, using cutting edge technology and models and looking at cycles that transcended the whole earth. And so I kind of stepped right into that, for a fact finished my PhD, decided to if I wanted to be a global climate scientist, I needed to work globally. I had been in the Bay Area for almost 10 years in LA and so on. So I left the US and I went to England to Oxford University. And I thought I would leave the satellite and evapotranspiration stuff behind me. I started working on the climate model. There, I started getting into nitrogen, and the nitrogen cycle. And really my number one goal of moving to England was to pick up a British accent so clearly that although I can't say...   Craig Macmillan  8:56  You went to Oxford, you went to Oxford to figure that out. You just couldn't move to the west end and a little apartment for a couple years. That wasn't going to do it clearly.   Joshua Fisher  9:03  But partially because we got a big project in the Amazon as well and Andes. So I moved into the Amazon and Andes and conducted a big nutrient fertilization experiment up and down the Andes along with a larger team studying ecological dynamics of the rainforest and cloud forest there. So my Spanish got a lot better although it's very much field Spanish, you know, I can converse very fluently when it comes to roots and leaves and soils, but put me in a fine dining restaurant. And I'm like, what is all this cutlery? We didn't have this on Amazon. Eventually made my way out of Amazon Andes back to Oxford and was teaching remote sensing and GIS geographic information systems to the students there. We had a collaborator at NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab who was visiting with us and he had tried to recruit me to JPL back in California. And I said, Ah, you know, I just converted my postdoc to a faculty position at Oxford. we're pretty happy here. But then my partner who's awesome from Los Angeles, got a job at Occidental College in Los Angeles. And so she got the job. And so I was like, okay, so I called up my friend at JPL. She has that position still available. And he said, Yeah, you should apply. And so I did. And so I ended up taking a job as a NASA scientist at JPL. And I was there for about 12 years before I left, and joined Chapman University and Hydrosat. Hydrosat was actually a spinoff from JPL. Some JPL scientists, engineers spun off some technology that we'd actually launched to Mars, and decided that we could actually use it for Earth Science and applications and accelerate that transition to society a lot faster. If we did it from a commercial sphere, than from a governmental, you know, wait for contracts and proposals, sphere prime, the science lead for Hydrosat. And even though it's in the commercial realm, I represent the science community and my push to make sure the data are available for free to the science community. And so that's one of my big pushes. It's all about advancing the earth as a whole. And Hydrosat really supports that. And our employees are driven by that mission as well. So that's exciting. So yeah, that's how I got involved in remote sensing and satellites. And it keeps me here today, because that's just what I've gotten good at, for my time at JPL.   Craig Macmillan  11:19  So what kinds of things is hydroset do?   Joshua Fisher  11:22  So we are launching as of, you know, less than a year just in June of 24, a constellation of satellites. And then they measure thermal infrared, so temperature, have very high spatial resolutions. And because it's a constellation, we can cover the earth really rapidly and frequently. So we can get measurements every day, what we call field scales down to 50 meters, for the thermal and in the visible and near infrared down to 20 meters. So really high resolution really frequent and and that's what we need, especially for growers agriculturalists. But even for other applications, like urban heat waves, volcanic eruptions, you know, a lot of things happen at very fine scales, wildfires, and you need to be able to capture it frequently, you can't just wait. And so there's always been this traditional trade off between high spatial resolution and high temporal resolution, you can have one or the other, but not both. It's because you either have your satellite close to the Earth where you can see close detail, but it takes forever to wrap around the earth in full coverage, or you can be further away and cover the earth more frequently. But then your pixel size is not as sharp. The problem with the thermal infrared imaging is that it's always been really expensive. Because it's a temperature sensor. It requires cooling, cryo, cooling, which takes a lot of energy and takes a lot of mass and volume. And on the engineering side, you start to add those up. And it becomes very expensive, from our public public satellites. Landsat has been our workhorse over the past couple of decades. And it's like a billion dollars to watch Landsat so you cannot have a lot. And that's a 16 day repeat. We advanced from Landsat with eco stress out of JPL I was the science lead for eco stress. We put it on the International Space Station. So we could use that energy system and power in crowd cooling. Interesting overpass cadence. So we didn't have to pay for a lot of the engineering. But you know, the the space station, of course, is very expensive.   Craig Macmillan  13:10  What is the overpass cadence on the International Space Station? I've always wondered that. If you're up there, and you're going around how often do you see your house?   Joshua Fisher  13:17  Yeah. And the answer is funky.   Craig Macmillan  13:21  Scientists love that Josh. Yeah, that's a great scientific, that's great for science.   Joshua Fisher  13:27  That's the jargon. That's the technical term. It is it's really funky. It's really weird. It doesn't go over the poles. For one, it hits about 50 to 15 degrees north and south. So it kind of like starts to get up there near Alaska. But it like it turns around, because what we call precesses kind of turns around, and so has this funky orbit. So if you're living in Los Angeles, or Chicago, or New York, a traditional satellite, like Landsat or MODIS, will pass over at the same time, every day for Motus 1030 or 130, for Landsat every 16 days at about 1030. So it's very consistent. And that's good for scientists, as you said, like scientist like that kind of consistent data, they can see if the planets heating up because at 1030, every time things are getting hotter, or whatever, the space station passes over at different times every time it takes your schedule and rips it up and says, you know, I'm doing my own thing. And so today, it'll be 11am. The next time it'll be 2pm. You know, next time it'll be 9am. It's not like every day or every three days. It's every like, sometimes it can be every day. And then like it just says like sia and then it comes back a week later. So it's very inconsistent. And that's why remote sensing scientists, NASA scientists had historically shied away from using the space station as a platform to observe the earth. I came along and said, You know what, this interesting high resolution spatial resolution because it's pretty close to the surface. You can actually see it from your house, passing over at night in this different times of overpass passes actually really good from a plant centric standpoint, plants, they use water throughout the day. But if you don't have enough water, especially in the afternoon, when it's hot and dry, plants will close this stomata, they'll shut down, and maybe reopen them a little bit in the evening to get a little bit more photosynthesis. And before, you know, there's no more sunlight from a 1030, consistent overpassed, you would never see that even from 130, you might not always see that getting that diurnal sampling was a unique trait that I thought would be valuable for Plant Science Ecosystem Science in agriculture. We propose that as part of the Eco stress mission proposal, the review panel at NASA headquarters, Congress love that we had been spending so much money as a nation on the space station. And we hadn't really been using those unique characteristics for Earth observation until we came along. And I think we were like the second Earth mission on the space station. And really the first one to ever use it to observe the earth with its unique characteristics. After we did that a whole bunch of other missions came up afterwards. We were trailblazers.   Craig Macmillan  15:59  That's cool. There's implications in terms of and you know, we're we're focused on plants and one plant in particular, the grapevine the implications for this are that we can see quite a bit of detail, I mean, 50 meters by 50 meters is actually surprisingly tight pixel, small pixel. But we also can see regional, and learn in larger scale patterns that we wouldn't find otherwise, where let's say grow A has great information about what's happening in terms of ET rates on their property, or plant water stress measured with leaf water potential or something like that. Stem water potential, but I'm guessing the field is probably picking up on some some patterns that are beyond what we might have otherwise known about, even if we had really, really good high quality high definition data just at the ground level, but limited parcel size, for instance.   Joshua Fisher  16:47  Yeah, absolutely. Thing is that hydrostat really combines a lot of great characteristics that you might get one from any, any any other individual instrument. So from again, Landsat, you've got that great spatial resolution, but you missed that frequency, promote us, you have the frequency, you miss the spatial resolution from drones, you get that great spatial resolution, but you don't get that large regional coverage, or even frequency from towers, similar, so from aircraft. So with Hydrosat, we're able to pick that a lot, which means that we can do a lot with I think we don't replace drone operations or towers, because those present and provide really useful information. But what we do provide is that just very consistent objective and large scale coverage at the field scale. So if you're a grower, and you got fields, you can run a drone or a couple of times, but you're really not going to see your field, you can get your Lance and your motors, but you're not gonna get that frequency or that resolution tight. So Hydrosat is really beneficial for you in terms of your audience for growers that have a lot of area, and a lot of interesting dynamics that you know, they need to be able to monitor and evapotranspiration, the soil moisture, the temperature, we can get that we also create a lot of products from our data. We just acquired a company called IrriWatch, which was started by my colleague Wim Bastiaanssen, who's a who's a giant and evapotranspiration, and so with me and Wim teaming up, we've got just where you know, the the two headed dragon of evapotranspiration are really pushing technology and solutions into agriculture, viticulture and all the other applications. So Wim and IrriWatch has done is they've reached out to hundreds hundreds of growers all over the world 60 countries and figuring out what are you what are your decisions? What are your What are your questions? What are your operational needs? And have answered pretty much all of them it can be from transpiration to soil moisture to soil deficit to how long do I need to turn on my hose? How long do I need to turn on my valve for? Where am I seeing water deficits? Where am I seeing water leaks? Can I tell us something about my soil health can I forecast crop yield, you know, in growing in viticulture, of course, we're not always trying to maximize the soil moisture to the field capacity. We're sometimes doing deficit irrigation. You even need more precision on that and more frequency. And so we work a lot with the US Department of Agriculture. I've got colleagues at USDA, Martha Anderson, they'll acoustics and tell him they've been doing a lot of viticulture applications. And so they're very excited about Hydrosat and we've been working with them on our early adopter product and hoping to have the USDA be a direct feed from Hydrosat and as much as all our individual growers and collective so we're definitely excited to support agriculture, viticulture, and anyone who can use the data. We want to make sure everyone has the best crop yield and best production and withstands these increasing heatwaves droughts and climate change that is facing everyone.   Craig Macmillan  19:56  So what kind of products does hydroset producing report it advise advising, like, what? What does it look like?   Joshua Fisher  20:03  Yeah, it's a huge list. I mean, so we actually have, since we acquired IrriWatch, we're trying to distill it because I think, with IrriWatch, we inherited about, like 50 different products. So different. So you got this web portal, this API, you can go in on your phone, or on your laptop, or your tablet, or whatever, and load up your field. And you can get your reports, your maps, your tables, your graphs across your different variables, your your irrigation recommendations, we provide irrigation recommendations, things before 10 In the morning, every day, local time. So people know what to do. But you know, then that's like growers, then there's more like water managers who are trying to manage water for a region, we've got policymakers, we've got consultants, so it's we have got a lot of different users, we've got a government. So we've got a lot of different users with different needs. And we have applications for all these different users. We're focused on agriculture, although we have a lot of interest and buy in from, again, like I said, wildfire communities, and forestry and public health and so on. So we're supporting a lot of those communities as well with our data. But we have a lot more analytics information and services for the Agricultural Committee at this at this time.   Craig Macmillan  21:17  I wanted to transition into that area of analytics. And related, you also are interested in modeling. I understand. To me, that's the Holy Grail, and also the Demon. of anyone who works around data. When I collect data, I've got maybe a great looking backward looking model. Fantastic. I tell you what has happened. Okay, great. Tell me what's going to happen. Josh, that's a little harder. And you are you are interested in this and work with this and which supercomputing Is that correct?   Joshua Fisher  21:48  That's right. That's right. Yeah, I do a lot of our system modeling. And it started with evapotranspiration, right again, because we couldn't measure it. So I had to predict it. And we had a lot of different models starting from him in Monte Thornthwaite. And recently, Taylor. And then moving forward, about the time I was in school, the global community started developing Eddy covariance towers, flux towers. And so we had some of the first ones at Berkeley that were measuring evapotranspiration, you know, frequently and across, you know, an ecosystem. So, I was like, well, let's test the models there. So I was, you know, one of the first scientists to test these different evapotranspiration models, and we got it like a dozen or so tested at the number of reflex sights, and I installed sap flow sensors and measured a bunch of things about water to be able to predict the models, or predict, predict evapotranspiration. That got me into understanding the process really well in the mathematics and the predictive capabilities. And then when I moved into the satellite remote sensing realm, we couldn't measure evapotranspiration directly as a gas flux. But you know, we were measuring the temperature signal, which is directly related, we can measure soil moisture, we can measure meteorology, we can measure vegetation, phonology. And so these components start to go together to get out of Apple transpiration. Actually, we can measure evapotranspiration using kind of atmospheric layers. It's very coarse resolution. It's not particularly useful for our land applications, but useful for weather and things like that. That modeling continued into using satellite data as the inputs to those models. And then like I said, I thought I would leave evapotranspiration remote sensing behind me as I moved to England and worked on the climate model. So I got into earth system modeling, and being able to predict, you know, essentially climate change, and what's happening to the fate of the whole planet, not just this year, next year, but 20 years from now, 50 years from now, and at the end of the century, as climate change is really ramping up and we're looking at tipping points in their system. When do plants really start running out of water? When do they run out of nutrients? When are the temperature extremes so much that plants can't survive? And this was actually just a paper that we published last month in nature made the cover of nature, and we use eco stress to detect temperature limits that we're seeing in tropical rainforests right now that we're just seeing starting to exceed the critical temperature in which photosynthesis shuts down. So that got a lot of widespread news coverage. Now we can put this back into their system models and say, are their system models doing this correctly? Some of my volcanology work is actually linked to earth system models, because one of the big uncertainties and unknowns and the fate of the planet is what are the rainforests going to do with increasing co2 And normally, we would set up experiments and pump co2 on to ecosystems and see what's happened. But it's hard to do that and rainforests working with my volcanologist colleagues, we've discovered that volcanoes leak co2 out of their like flanks into the low lying forests. And there's a chain of volcanoes in Costa Rica that are doing this in the rainforests. So we're going in again, back into the jungle, this time, the jungles of the volcanoes, flying drones to sniff out those co2 leaks, flying Lidar and thermal hyperspectral to see what the rainforest responses are. So that all ecology that remote sensing ties back to their system modeling predictive capabilities.   Craig Macmillan  25:05  One of the things I think is fascinating is here we have an ecosystem where we can collect data, we can the ground truth, that data or collect other variables to ground truth and connect, we can then develop like you said, some predictive modeling, and you go, what would a rainforest have to do with Cabernet Sauvignon? My answer is a lot. So where I want to steer things next, as a viticulturist. This is where I should say, the viticulture side of me. I'm very selfish. Not all viticulturist are many are giving open people, but I'm very selfish, and the only thing I care about is okay, what's happening with my vineyard? And what's that gonna look like? 10, 15 years from now, very hot topic right now in the in the wine industry is Wow, things are changing clearly. And so what kinds of changes Am I gonna have to make? Or can I make in terms of what plants I'm planting? Going forward? And I'm guessing that you probably are having some, some insights into plant response under these different conditions? Do you think that we're going to have some models or some ideas in the future about how, you know specific crops like vines might be modified, either in terms of species choice varieties choice or management techniques, or things like that? Is there is there some help for us here?   Joshua Fisher  26:18  Yeah, we already have those, there's kind of two paths or two, two sides to this coin, when it comes to climate change, and viticulture. One is big scale, where can we grow grapes that we couldn't grow before? And to where are we no longer going to be able to grow grapes into the future? The second one is, you know, it's hard to pick up a move to move into a new place or to move out of an old place, what can we do under the changing temperature and changing water cycle and changing seasonal cycle? And so I think that's probably the more immediate pressing question to potentially some of your your listeners is what can we do now? And so, you know, we're working with like the USDA and testing out different seed varieties, and so on. And there's a lot of commercial companies that do to do that as well. And so how do we help? We're not doing seed varieties. We're not doing the genetics of it, although I've got colleagues at Chapman University who are doing that. But what we can do is say, all right, you've got 5, 10 different varieties of the same type of grape, how much water are they using, what's the temperature sensitivity, and not just in a greenhouse or a lab, but across the field. And you can't always get towers and drones everywhere. And you know, maybe you can, but there's local conditions are a little bit unusual. So let's go ahead and plant 10 experimental fields, or maybe you're a grower, and you have a couple fields that you're willing to try out some new varieties. And we can just tell you, yeah, they use less water, or we have also another product called Water Use Efficiency crop for drop in terms of how much carbon is being taken up relative to how much water is being used. And so we can tell you that variety was was pretty good. I think that's the main crux, we can also tell you other things that other people can tell you in terms of phonology, and in Greenup, and so on. I think that helps and dovetails with how I actually got on your podcast with my buddy and colleague, Professor Katie Gold at Cornell University, who does a lot of remote sensing on disease. And so there's diseases are changing with climate change as well. And so with Katie and me arm and arm across, you know, across the coasts, hitting the disease in hyperspectral, and the plant water stress temperature shifts of the thermal, we present a very powerful one, two punch against climate change as it starts to attack our fields and crops. In a more immediate term, we have like a crop yield crop forecast, you know, seasonal forecasts that helps growers understand what they're doing in terms of coming to market, you know, that's a little bit potentially less useful for viticulture, it's more for grain crops and you know, big kind of bulk crops, it's also useful for investors as well. So there's a lot of futures, a lot of crop investors, crop insurance, and so on. And so we can provide just, you know, more accurate forecasts from the existing forecasts, because we have better data on existing conditions and more, a deeper insight into what the plants are seeing doing and feeling and responding because of that temperature signal because of that thermal response.   Craig Macmillan  29:09  That's really cool. And very exciting. And I'm very happy with it. You and Katie, other people are working on this because I think we've done a number of interviews in this area now over the years. And one thing that I have been really inspired by is that 15 years ago, this was kind of a glint in somebody's eye. And then 10 years ago, things were starting to happen. And then probably at least more than even more than five years ago, you'd go to any of the big meetings, and it's like, Hey, we got drones, we can fly your plane. Hey, we got planes, we can fly a plane and these beautiful pictures and stuff. And then suddenly, it actually getting more than five years ago then it was like look at all this NASA stuff. I was like, holy cow. This is taking it to a whole nother level in literally a whole nother level. And so I'm really excited about first I was excited about the data and I'm excited about how we're learning how to use it. And I think that's always been a challenge is We're pretty good at finding ways of collecting data. We're not always so great at figuring out how to use it can run out of time here. But the one thing on this topic that you would tell grape growers in particular, there was one thing that you would tell a grower, what would it be?   Joshua Fisher  30:16  Yeah, if there was one thing I would tell a grape grower is that we're here to support you. And we are working on the technology to meet your needs and demands, the technology is available for you, by all means, reach out, you can Google me, email me, no problem. I'll hook you up some sample data, you know, see if it looks good. If you want to buy in great, if not, no worries, if you just want some advice, consulting, it's all about help. We're all on this ship together Planet Earth to get there. You know, it's all about collaborations and helping across the board.   Craig Macmillan  30:46  Where can people find out more about you?   Joshua Fisher  30:48  I've got a website, my own personal website, you can see all my publications and datasets and so on.   Craig Macmillan  30:54  We will link to that.   Joshua Fisher  30:55  JB Fisher dot org. You can Google me on Josh Fisher and Chapman or Joshua hydrostat. I'm on Twitter, try to tweet out all my papers are relevant papers and science findings in the literature. I'm on LinkedIn and I do meet blog posts on papers met once a quarter on medium. So we're trying to get out there and try to communicate Yeah, more than happy to help.   Craig Macmillan  31:17  Sounds like you're easy to find my guest today. It was Joshua Fisher. He's Associate Professor of Environmental Science and Policy at Chapman University. And he's also the science lead for a company called Hydrosat. And we've been talking about things that are a new window, and I'm very excited about having that window opened in that window being opened wider and wider all the time. Josh, thanks for being a guest. This is great.   Joshua Fisher  31:39  Thanks, Craig. And hopefully, your listeners found it interesting.   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

We're talking about raising kids with type 1, the journey to diabetes independence, and educating around the use of emergency glucagon. We're bringing you a panel discussion from Moms' Night Out Frisco! We have terrific speakers at our Moms' Night Out events but we also have some panel discussions. This time around it's Stacey and Cami DiRoberto. Cami's daughter, Maci, was diagnosed with type 1 at age 7 in 2017. She and turned 13 just after our conference back in October. Couple of quick housekeeping notes: this was presented and recorded as a hybrid Zoom and in person presentation – Cami broke her arm and was unable to attend in person. Her audio is fine, but Stacey's recorded through the computer mic and isn't up to our usual standards. We're providing the transcript below. Cami is a Gvoke ambassador and this panel was sponsored by Xeris Pharmaceuticals, the company that makes Gvoke. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Note: Gvoke is a prescription injection for the treatment of very low blood sugar in adults and kids with diabetes ages 2 and above. Do not use if you have a specific type of adrenal or pancreatic tumor, starvation, chronic low blood sugar, or allergy to GVOKE. High blood pressure, hypoglycemia, and serious skin rash can occur. Call your doctor or get medical help right away of you have a serious allergic reaction including rash, difficulty breathing, or low blood pressure. Visit www.gvokeglucagon.com/risk for more information. Find out more about Moms' Night Out  Please visit our Sponsors & Partners - they help make the show possible! Take Control with Afrezza  Omnipod - Simplify Life Learn about Dexcom  Edgepark Medical Supplies Check out VIVI Cap to protect your insulin from extreme temperatures Learn more about AG1 from Athletic Greens  Drive research that matters through the T1D Exchange The best way to keep up with Stacey and the show is by signing up for our weekly newsletter: Sign up for our newsletter here Here's where to find us: Facebook (Group) Facebook (Page) Instagram Twitter Check out Stacey's books! Learn more about everything at our home page www.diabetes-connections.com  Reach out with questions or comments: info@diabetes-connections.com Episode transcription:  Stacey Simms  0:05 This is Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms. This week talking about raising kids with type one, the journey to diabetes independence and educating around the use of emergency glucagon. I'm bringing you a panel discussion from moms Night Out Frisco. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Welcome to another week of the show. You know, we aim to educate and inspire about diabetes with a focus on people who use insulin. I'm your host, Stacey Simms and my son was diagnosed with type 117 years ago this week right before he turned to he's almost 19 years old. He's a freshman in college and he's far from perfect. I'm far from perfect but cannot believe how far we have come at our moms night out events. We always have terrific speakers. Coming up for our Charlotte event. In February we have Sarah Stewart Holland. She is the co host of pantsuit politics, and her son was diagnosed really not too long ago. She went through that very publicly, and just going to be sharing her story. Our other speaker is Madison Carter. She is a local TV news anchor who lives with type one herself. But we also have some panel discussions at these events. This time around you're going to hear me and Cami de Roberto hammies daughter Macy was diagnosed with type one at age seven in 2017. She had her birthday just after our conference, which was back in October a couple of quick housekeeping notes. This was presented and recorded as a hybrid zoom and in person presentation, kami broke her arm and was unable to attend in person. Her audio is great, but mine recorded through the zoom. And it is pretty rough. My amazing editor John has worked his magic the best that he can. But I'll be honest with you my side of the conversation is not up to what I think our usual standards are around here. I will tell you though, I'm putting a transcription in with this episode. Wherever you're listening, you should be able to scroll down on the podcast app and see and read what you're listening to. If there's any confusion about my side of the conversation, you can always head over to diabetes connections.com and click on the episode homepage to read it as well. Also, Cami is a Gvoke ambassador and this panel was sponsored by Xeris pharmaceuticals, the company that makes Gvoke you know I like my full disclosures around here. But they made this really easy. This is a genuine Parent to Parent conversation. And it's mostly about independence. You know how you get from a kid who's totally dependent on you to a young adult that you you can send off on their own. And one more thing about mom's night out the early bird special for our next event in Charlotte has ended but I'm gonna give you a promo code right here just use m n o mom's night out m n o 30 to save $30 off Charlotte registration. Alright, that is a long enough introduction. The panel is up next and since I just told you about CAMI I took out the introduction that I gave at the event and the big lead up so we're going to just jump directly in right after this important message. Gvokeis a prescription injection for the treatment of very low blood sugar in adults and kids with diabetes ages two and above. Do not use if you have a specific type of adrenal or pancreatic tumor starvation, chronic low blood sugar or allergy to Gvoke High Blood Pressure hypoglycemia and serious skin rash can occur. Call your doctor or get medical help right away. If you have a serious allergic reaction, including rash, difficulty breathing or low blood pressure visit Gvokeglucagon.com/risk. For more information. I think everybody has heard my family's diagnosis story. My son was going to the strip before he turned to one can tell us a little bit about Macy's diagnosis.   Cami  4:01 Yeah, so Macy was diagnosed in second grade. It was the tail end of her second grade year. I'm sure like many of you, I was completely ignorant about type 1 diabetes. I knew there was a type one I knew there was type two, I really didn't know the difference. I knew one kind of struck children, but I was completely ignorant. So it was like the last week of her second grade year at school and we had just moved back to California from Arizona actually. So we were kind of transitioning and all in all areas of life. And she had three bedwetting accidents in a matter of three weeks. First time she was at my mom's house, like having a little sleepover with me. And my mom called me the next morning and I called and checked in. Hey, how was everything? You guys have fun last night? She said yeah. She said we're just we're cleaning up to today. Macy had a little accident and I was like, well that's really weird. She hasn't done that in years. But that's so weird because it's not totally outside of the norm for a seven year old little girl you know it could happen so that was weird, but a week later happened again and I was like, Okay, are we drinking too much water before we go to bed? What's happening? Let's let's really so I started to pay more attention happened one more time a week later on, I was like, something's wrong. The red flags, you know, we're going off. And so it was a party it was because it was the last week of school. It was a party at school. And I woke her up and saw that she had had an accident and it kind of laid some towels down and changed your sheets. And I said, Oh, honey, I said, You had another accident. I said, I think we probably need to get in and see a doctor now. I said, Do you feel okay, you know, in my mind, I was hoping like bladder infection or something like that. But somewhere in the depths of my mother's instinct, diabetes flashed across my brain. And i i To this day, I don't know why. So I was sort of praying that it wasn't gonna be that, but I didn't really even know why I was thinking that it was all very blurry and confusing. But she said she felt fine. She wanted to go to school. So I said, okay, and I made an appointment with her pediatrician that afternoon. So I picked all three of my kids up from school that afternoon, and the four of us had at the end of the pediatrics office, and she checked it out and you know, took her vitals and sort of a physical exam. And she said, I think she'll show your daughter fine. She said, I think she's growing. It's hot outside, you know, but she's fine. And I said, Okay, I said, we'll upgrade nose and I said, Can you just indulge me? And could you check for diabetes. And I swear to you, I still don't know why I felt so convicted to request that. But I did. And she did sort of begrudgingly. And our blood sugar came back at 323. I'll never forget time kind of stopped in that moment. Doctor came back after the nurse came in and prick Macy's finger, you know, she left when three, the four of us were playing I Spy in the room. And like 1015 minutes later, so kind of like now that I look back and inordinately long time, the doctor kind of knocked on the door and up and said, Hey, Mom, can you come out in the hallway for a second? So I walked out. And she had the landline kind of cradled her shoulder and she she was clearly on hold when she said I am so sorry, I don't really know how to tell you this. But you're right, your your daughter has diabetes, and you're going to be heading to the hospital for a couple days. And you know, here's my office, if you want to make arrangements for your other kids, and just the world just kind of stops for a second. And in that moment, I didn't even know what I didn't know. I mean, I'm sure many of you can share that sentiment. It's just confusing. You don't even really know what you're about to deal with. But that was how she was diagnosed. And then off we went to children's Fortunately, she was, you know, we avoided DKA, which I'm so grateful for, like I said her blood sugar was 323. So they actually sent us home and called us when a bed was ready for her. So we were able to go home and pack a bag and kind of try to be positive and find some sanity for us. But also,   Stacey Simms  7:34 we were so lucky, our pediatrician, I called them similar symptoms. And she said, You have never seen diabetes, can anybody under the age of two to provide your program and so we can move on out. And we had such a incredible start to the families today because of that very smart pediatrician didn't let it get to be a routine thing. Can you talk a little bit of you mentioned your other children. This could be a whole separate discussion unto itself. But to talk about the impact to your to your family,   Cami  8:03 if you can believe this, at the time she was diagnosed, we were literally living through a kitchen remodel, my whole dining room was set up I had like a hot plate and we had moved our refrigerator was like an all the way by the front door. Our house was an absolute disaster. And of course, we needed to figure out our new sort of diet plan as well after all this. So kitchen remodel and type 1 diabetes diagnosis were not ideal at the same time. So my husband Tori and I were in the hospital for two nights. And fortunately, we have a big family here. And so we had my sisters in law and my brothers and I mean, we had all kinds of family that came and stayed with my kids. But those first nine to 12 months were really particularly rough on Macy's, little sister Emma, they're they're really close in age, but 14 months apart. I think it's so confusing. She was six at the time. And I think she was terrified. And so much attention goes to managing it's in those early weeks, months, gosh, even the first year who you're still trying to figure out what your cadence for management is, you know, how often are you going to prick your finger and where and when and how do you leave the house and make sure you have everything that you need. I mean, there's so much it's like everything else stops and all you can do is focus on how to make sure this child of yours stay safe. And so I think there there definitely was an impact on my two younger children because all the focus was on me so we worked really hard on my husband and I like taking turns to like take the other two and do kind of go do special things and get them out of the house. But that was tricky for a while. That was definitely tricky, but we encouraged my other two kids to like prick their fingers and hey, let's all check our blood sugar. So we did a lot of that in the first couple months, which was kind of fun. My Anna Macy sister was not not a fan of the prep but my son was like all about it. He was doing it to my sister so that was super cute.   Stacey Simms  9:53 It is hard it still works to this day. I don't want to seem genuine so like self promotion machine like I did talk to my daughter went off tests. It is one of my favorite episodes. It was just last year. It's part of the sequence and it's okay to acknowledge that what helped me was just really honest. Aisha Nina, she's 22 She is really got an interesting perspective. It's been a while to see she was fine with me was diagnosed and she's very honest. And she still has some hard feelings about it. But she's an adult to, to acknowledge why it was the way it was. And she's also it was a lot of fun to talk about that damn Calgary, Kimball. Because my son was diagnosed who for the first time all that disrupted Alright, so I'm gonna ask him, I'm gonna put my own two cents in real quick. So we're gonna talk about that what was going through your head when Macy was diagnosed? Right and talking about your concerns and views for the future? Here's how. I don't want to say dumb. Here's what I didn't know about diabetes. So my little 23 months old. My first question for the endocrinologist was, don't I have to be shuffling his feet and put his toenails differently? I was like   something is like, okay, no, it's got to be like that. I mean, we're talking about bigger fears. But you know, that's where I started out.   Cami  11:27 Yeah, I'm not too far off. My first question was, was she going to have to like wear on her body because I didn't want her tiny little frail body like Mark with devices. I was like, am I Heartland my, my mind went immediately, like pacemaker I'm like, can we get this stuff inside, so we don't have to, like be visible about the so my first little vanity, which is a concern, you know, I didn't want her to have to wear stuff. And they were like, now there's, there's no pacemaker type machine. That's gonna. I mean, it's amazing how quickly I got past that. I mean, we were we had we used to call it a power packs. And so you know, the more visible we could be the better. So we got past that. And thankfully, I think we might even touch on this a little later. But she's super open about her devices. And when people ask her and said that, so that was great. But yeah, my initial thought was, oh, my God, oh, my gosh, and and it really wasn't until I got home, Stacy that I realized the 24/7 hour nature just and actually, I remember, I think it was day two, and we were on lunch of day two. So we had checked in like late afternoon on I think, a Thursday. And so we had dinner at the hospital. And then we had breakfast at the hospital. And so we were working on lunch at the hospitals for our third meal. And the nurse comes in and says, okay, so it's time to, you know, let's do our carb counts and let dial up our insulin, we know what our ratio is. And we were like, Yeah, we got this and I looked at when I went, hey, just to like, be clear, I go, we're not this isn't like, Bro. This is like, like, while we're in LA, oh, we're gonna, this is gonna level out. We're not gonna have to do this all the time. Right? And she was like, yeah, no, this is basically, this is how we have to do meals. Wow. So that was a moment to   Stacey Simms  13:05 Yeah, we're here in order to talk about dealing with loans preparing for loans. Do you remember when you realize, because when you and I were talking, I'm gonna ask you to some of these things I have the answer to so Don't be coy. I didn't think about this for a while but used to think about this in the hospital already. When they started applying with us. Right. It   Cami  13:24 was discharged day. And it was our last meeting with the diabetes educators who were fabulous. By the way. They were wonderful contents. Yeah, it was our last day. And so we like our final meeting. And you know, Macy stayed in a row and just touring and I went into the diabetes education room. And they kind of did like an overview. And then they said, Okay, and there's, you know, there's one more thing that we need to make sure we go over with you. And that's, you know, what we call severe lows, and they pulled out the red glucagon emergency kit. And they said, You know, sometimes you can have too much insulin or too much activity. And, and it doesn't happen very often. But, you know, sometimes it can happen, and you need to be prepared to use this kit. And I was like, what? Can you pause for a moment? And let's just rewind a minute. What do you mean, and that was a massive moment in time where I realized, so this medicine that you're telling us, we have to give her, and we have to decide how much to give her to keep her alive, if we give too much, could also be fatal. And, boy, that was a poignant moment. And I'm sure one we could all share and pause on because that is the reality. But yes, that was when we left the hospital and I was absolutely terrified, terrified about severe lows.   Stacey Simms  14:42 I want to just get to the other question before the one in terms of like, do you have those fears, but you you still want him to lose their life? You still want them to be independent? I mean, your seven year old so you're going to immediately send her off to be super independent. But how did you Once the engine, you know, I hesitate to see how did you get the cast that but how did you move forward with that?   Cami  15:05 It was difficult, um, you know, that was sort of the age, you know. So we're now heading into third grade and I remember I had this like special lunchbox for her that whenever she ever we would leave the house, we go anywhere and had all of our staff had had her with an emergency kit and had her sugar it had her testing all the stuff. We all we all have that. And I remember there were a couple of times where Macy got invited to have playdates at some friends house. And again, we kind of knew what the school kind of knew newly back in California, so I didn't know everyone yet. And she had a couple playdates. And so I sent mom would text me and say, Hey, Mom, you know, so and so wants to know if Macy can come over after school and play. And so I would respond and say, yes, she would love to however, I just need to make sure you understand BCS type 1 diabetes, and this can mean this and you know, she's, she's on it, but I really need you to just have your phone with you all the time. And I will tell you, it was challenging because we didn't get a lot of repeat invites. And then and then I would go over how to use that glucagon emergency kit, because I was scared. I mean, what if, what if they're out jumping on a trampoline? And God forbid, that's her first low. I mean, so I felt like, I had to do that. But it was really tough because I didn't want to and I think her social life. So you know, then I I tried to include an invite over to our house. So I did you know, slumber parties. That was a whole nother chapter to get through. But we did them in our house. You know, we didn't have in our house for a long time. But as long as I had a willing person on the other end, I allowed me to go do those things. As long as I had a mom or a trusted, you know, dad or trusted caregiver. On the other end, I really tried to give her that opportunity to go and be away from me. Like frankly,   Stacey Simms  16:38 it was interesting. He was a two year old, my son. We taught him some things. And I know we're gonna talk about that a little bit later. But did you start teaching Macy to do her own care with like with supervision, pretty much   Cami  16:51 immediately, immediately. I have videos of her coming home, like five days after the hospital and going okay, here's Macy, she's gonna give herself her insulin injection, and I'm videoing her and she's smiling on the couch. And so immediately, I mean, we really, and I don't know why I certainly could not have possibly had the foresight to know that that was important at the moment. I don't know why we did that. But I'm glad we did. I mean, Stacy for you. I mean, he was so young. How, at what age? Did you start giving him independence? Or or? Yes.   Stacey Simms  17:25 Everybody curates differently.   Unknown Speaker  17:27 I noticed, you know, I   Stacey Simms  17:28 jokingly call myself the world's worst diabetes mom, but slight. And I, we always wanted to raise our kids to leave home. And if it's about them, and you know, everybody, everybody's different. But when he when we both worked full time, so my kids were both in daycare, and we're, we're the luckiest people, I think when it comes to the type one things that happen. And so when I brought him back to daycare, the manager was like, oh, yeah, I used to be a minute, I can get injections. And I was like, Can you sleep here because I don't want to give you the money. And then go, actually, the whole team here started learning how to do it. And once he got an Insulet, on six months later, everybody was like, Yeah, I'll check that out, you know, and two of the ladies there became nursing students, not because of him, but like he was just cool. He didn't have a desk calm because this was 2006. He didn't get a desk until he was nine. And so we decided that when he was going into kindergarten, which honestly was one of the most terrifying things for me, like that was a hard, hard transition. Because we've had it so good at daycare, we told preschoolers, as we called that, like, hey, we want Benny to know how to check his blood glucose and muses, champions to kindergarten. And so we're going to teach him that at home. And can you help us out a daycare? And if your kids have ever been in daycare, like that's where they are independent, they come home, they would do anything for being going to calculus and the dude helping us a four steps. So let's do one. He talked to him, like, boys took their own leadership when kindergarten things like demonstrated I was able to do it so that once you could do that, and he always knew, officially, I have to show my there was always a responsible adult, he wasn't just doing that. So that helped us because in our neighborhood, first grade is when people start going playdates pretty much by themselves. And so we would line up, no Dexcom. But people have to call me and be like, Here's what a meeting person and I'm going to be helping from the dose and I want everybody in my neighborhood a person, which is really fun. And that's what I believe is really good friends with London because we get the case. Every evening on the counter for the kids, I don't know it's like after school.   I could go on and my answer to that question is very gradually, every year he did something else that is more leading more and more towards independence. Was the blood sugar perfect? Absolutely not. But that's the trade off I think sometimes. Alright, so we come back to our stuff we're talking about. Do you have any lessons you learned that can help other moms with, you know, similar aged kids just starting out?   Cami  20:14 I think probably, and again, not not because I did this, because I knew what I was doing. But as it turns out, we gave me see the confidence or Macey develop the confidence to be really open about her diabetes. Um, there's actually an influencer, who she's now a PA, some of you may follow her. But she's, she's a PA, she has type 1 diabetes, and she just had chant twins a couple years ago. But anyway, she did this whole post online, maybe three years ago, something like that, about the importance of teaching your kids to be confident about this, and to talk about it enough to be embarrassed about it. Don't go into the corner and trick your finger. Don't try to hide all your stuff. Because what she found she was talking about her own experience when she was younger, she said, there was so much curiosity among kids about what you know what, what is going on? What are you doing over there? And why are you freaking out? You know what's happening? And she said, When I tried to hide it, that's when people really got curious. And it became kind of this big thing. And she said, as soon as I was like, Oh, I'm pricking my finger, because I have type 1 diabetes, and I just need to know my blood sugar. They were like, oh, okay, no big deal. And when she said that, it resonated with me, because I feel like we did that, again, by the grace of God, not because we knew what we were doing. But, you know, we really encouraged me see, to talk about it. And to educate people, I said, you know, you have this for better or for worse. And it's kind of your responsibility to talk about it and to educate and to kind of be an ambassador for this. And if you see someone else who has come on, welcome and introduce yourself and say, Hey, like, like your next column. And so to be open about it, and to embrace it, I really think it's helped or to just be confident and to accept it. And I, you know, it's easy for me to say, because my daughter was seven at the time, I think if you have a diagnosis, when you're you know, on stage, it may be for you to a little bit like that, if you have a diagnosis with a 16 year old boy, man, I think that would be really, really challenging, because you just might not have that same response from him or, you know, 15 year old girl. So I think that's difficult, but to the extent possible, I really think that's invaluable. Probably one of the most valuable components of Macy's type 1 diabetes life is that she's not embarrassed about it. It is what it is that she wished she didn't have it. Of course she did. But it is what it is. I would say that's probably my number one piece of advice,   Stacey Simms  22:21 I think to you, you kind of as I said, we were very lucky. Betty is extremely outgoing, don't know where to get stuff from. And she nearly it was never shy about diabetes, daughters Natori introverted. And I would worry, I think it would be different, but I worried about her in middle school in high school, it would have been a different experience. I think, overall, they're just different kids. Yeah,   Cami  22:43 I mean, I think as they get older, you know, Macy's in eighth grade, right for 14, and college scares the heck out of me. I mean, when she goes spent the night at a friend's house, where I know the mom very, very well. And five minutes away from me, that's one thing, but I'm terrified of college, and her leaving the house, we're doing everything we can to prepare her. But I'd love to hear a little from you. Well,   Stacey Simms  23:08 you know, I'm gonna start by my mother gave me advice a long time ago, especially when he was really little, which is don't borrow trouble. Like there's enough to worry we have in front of us. So when he was two, she was like, don't think about college yet, but you'll get there. So I won't say don't think about just obviously, your top two. But that kind of helped prove a little bit. But I will say and we touched on this a little bit. The gradual independence that we gave Benny really helped us. I mean, it helped him, but it helped us. So our diabetes educator who is just an amazing woman recently retired, she has two adult sons with type one, one of whom was in New chronologist now, and she told me that the first time we met her, I said, like, oh, you know, do you have any advice? So that what can I basically I was like, How can I not mess this up and make him a good person and a healthy adult. She's like, why we can't tell you how, but I can tell you what not to do. She said, I just taught an 18 year old who's had this for a long time how to get insulin shot, because he had never done it. And he's going off to college. And she's like, don't do that. Don't do that. And you know, we all know that families don't want to pass judgment. I don't know what's going on. But I just was like, Okay, we've got a long time to get into the printer. So what we did was at the beginning of every school year, I would say, Hey, how you want to manage diabetes this year? What's your goal? And so I didn't give him that choice in kindergarten because I was ticked like I said, I was terrified. But in first grade, he said he wanted to eat lunch by lunch at the cafeteria once a week, at least. You know, by fifth grade. He was like, I don't want anyone ever checked in with the nurse because we live in North Carolina where they don't have full time school nurses. So we had a nurse at the office maybe two days a week. We had amazing staff who were like very caring individuals but didn't really know who diabetes. So that's another reason why I taught him to check his blood glucose. Because Jeff's calm which was not just been scheduled this time. So don't shut down we got we got Dexcom we had no Sherawat follow. So I mean we do is at the time he was supposed to pick us up and even just look at the steps. So he's your team didn't really change very much. But fifth grade was I don't want anybody looking over my shoulder anymore. I'm just going to Joe's gonna be compromised. Because I don't know about you guys but Middle School fifth, sixth, seventh eighth grade Marines like Whovians. So I do anything that I need a thumbs up to your teacher, that you gave yourself insulin for lunch. And he was like, Cool. Mr. Parker said, we're good to go. Then Middle School, he's like, I'm not checking in with anybody. I'm on my own. But I want you to text me every day before lunch. You're young, you're bolus. Oh, how wonderful. You would think how wonderful and you want to do bolus every day of that we just want to run with it. And we also talk, a little wonder, but we also have the same conversation starting in middle school about how are we going to manage Dexcom share, because I have a very funny Facebook post that I pulled out for the second book. And it's one of the first to share, he went on a field trip. And I was like, how do people do this? This is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. I have to look at these numbers all the time. Oh my god, this is overflowing. I need this. So I sat him down and I'm like, but if you read above this number for this long, I will text you if you're below this evergreens, Islam, I will text you and we went every year we changed that. By the time he was a junior in high school. I turned off the high alarm senior here, which was our independence here. I was like, okay, but the junior senior high school, I am not going to help you. And once you really, I turned off my love. The real turning point for us was that when he was 16, he went to Israel for a month with a kid, not at the biggest scale just because of regular sleepaway camp. And when he didn't Well, and came home, I said, What am I supposed to do now? Like you're done? I'm done. You're cooked. When you say now your customer service. And we went to camp this summer where he was a lifeguard. And he said, we're done. Like off with follow. So I don't follow. Kids, we're doing this before sharing follow up. You're like, right,   Cami  27:12 is to allow anyone to follow him.   Stacey Simms  27:15 Know that he's following him right now. But I know in the heads of the question, I'll ask him. In the past, he's had friends follow him, friends with him without diabetes. And that's fine. He's young. He has a roommate. He's not alone. I'm sure. My concern right now is more about highs than lows, because he's just kind of doing the minimum. I do like index complexity. But you can see the back end look. I'm gonna talk to him about it, because I figured he's a busy freshman figuring it out. Yeah. So again, we all hear differently. And because I feel him in one cameo, and I'll wrap it up in a second. But because we took all those steps to independence, already, we had really bad diabetes experiences. He's been low on sleepovers. He's been high on sleepovers, he has had his infusion sets come out. He's walking on insulin at restaurants. He walked across my neighbor's lawn to our lawn that intersect without telling anybody at four o'clock in the morning because he was low and didn't like the juice selection. Do you realize   Cami  28:19 that follow over   Stacey Simms  28:21 when they're 62. Right? So we've got a lot of time to make a lot of mistakes and realize like he's a tough cookie. So it's really yeah, we've done it all. Okay, so um, but Matt, what's your question for me? I want to ask you to county before we move on, you mentioned the Congress and things and it's tough on their stuff. And I mean, everything stuff. My daughter's maybe like, can you complain to me, too? Am I the guide a little easier, she's older and she doing 13 to 14 is like when they're really pushing you to make them more independent here to them more.   Cami  28:56 You guys. Yes. So for her birthday, last year, her 13th birthday, she had all these friends that did some these like elaborate parties and all these things she could mom, all I want is I want to go to the mall with my friends. I don't want you hiding in a coffee shop down the street. Property, I want you to drop me and my friends off and leave go back home. All you when we're ready to be picked up. So I dropped her off. And that was what she wanted for her birthday. They went out to dinner. And you know, they I think they were there maybe four hours. But she literally asked for independence for her birthday. You know, we also take advantage of this technology. So she she wears an Apple Watch. So even at school like you know, if we see we're on a chain actually, it's my husband and I and Macy and then they have an iPad in the school office, that some chain so we're always watching her numbers. And if she goes really high, you know, we kind of have to kind of have thresholds like if she's too high for too long, then we're like Amy see, are you having insulin? If she goes low, he may see or you know, are you having sugar so we've kind of got this cadence of communication. And I think because we've so to hold her accountable, it's been easier to allow her to be more independent. Because she and we'll talk about this, I think in a few minutes, Didi like, you know with low she communicates mom and having sugar mom I know I'm high I'm gonna give myself three units. So that's great you know she she communicates but back to your point a few minutes ago there Her brain is also gone because she's 13 and this junior high where it's just like, sometimes we'll be on dessert already through a meal and I'm like, oh Macy bullet strike. She's like, Oh, I forgot. I'm like, provide like we've been doing this for seven years every time you put a morsel of food in your mouth?   Stacey Simms  30:34 Yeah, that's a change. Yeah. I do want to talk about, we're gonna change gears a little bit and talk about severe blows. I noticed people very nervous. I do want to say this is meant to be educational and not scary. But CAMI is going to share some stories. But I do need to say that definition realize that severe lows occur when blood sugar gets too low for your body to function optimally, and requires immediate health to recover. It is really important to be prepared for the unpredictable. And I joke around a lot. But we do take this very seriously in the afternoon students of preparation when I think of the Ford Academy, because you had unfortunately not experienced with us.   Cami  31:16 Yeah, so Macy's had three severe love, none of which happened in the first like four years of her diabetes diagnosis, which was, you know, wonderful, because we never had to use the red mix kit. I don't know if I even would have been able to do that in a moment of panic. And as I walked through the story, I think this will make more sense. But initially, when we were informed about severe lows, what they could look like what they were, I was so terrified, it was like this taboo that I almost didn't even want to think about or talk about, I knew it was there. And I acknowledged it but I just wanted to do everything I possibly could to never ever, ever have to even get into that realm of a severe low and say. And things changed for us a little bit, to be honest, when I learned about Gvoke and how it could be used. So let me walk through, you know, our severe lows and kind of how those played out. So the first one was a few years ago, and my husband was traveling, he was out of town. And so it's just me in the kids home and I tried to eat pretty low carb, but for whatever reason, this pasta night, so I made some pasta. And Keith and I were eating and Macy bolused for her entire plate of pasta, and then eat about half. And then when I was jumping, kind of like a trampoline this like Airtrack thing we have in our backyard at the time, my son was really into like learning how to do flips. So he was like, Macy, come on, let's go out. Let's go out jump on the Airtrack. And so they were out and my daughter and I were kind of inside. I think we were watching a movie or something. So all was quiet, everything's fine. Kids were having fun. It was just a regular night. And then I get the alert on the Dexcom. And it's 50 to two arrows down. And right at that moment we see blast through the front door. She's like Mom, I feel really low. So I'm like okay, so I get her some apple juice. I think we actually use the little gunk, she doesn't like apple juice. So we give her some gummies waited a few minutes. And then then the reading said low we prepped and it was extremely, she was really low. And I said Macy. You can keep pounding sugar I said or we can pull out your G book right now. And she was like, let's just do the G book.   Stacey Simms  33:08 Hey, this is Stacy jumping in. Just to give a little bit of an explanation. Here. Hypoglycemia is defined by level one glucose lower than 70 milligrams per deciliter, and greater than or equal to 54 milligrams per deciliter level to glucose lower than 54 milligrams per deciliter. And level three is a severe event characterized by altered mental and or physical status requiring assistance. This level of hypoglycemia is life threatening and requires emergency treatment, typically, with glucagon. Now, back to kami. And   Cami  33:45 so we were in that moment, I gave her a choice because she, in the absence of intervention, she was going to pass out and she was headed down. And so we injected G voc. And within a very few short moments, she started feeling well and recovered. I think she got up to about 180 and then ultimately leveled out. That's it. That was experience. Number one. Tell us about Jimi Hendrix. Number two was a little bit kind of the same, but kind of different. Again, my husband was it was during a period of time where he was working on something and so he was traveling quite a bit. So it was after dinner, I had to open like 839 o'clock at night. We were actually all up in my room. And my when my husband travels or just forgotten early on, all my kids get to have a slumber party in my room. So Macy and I were reading I think I had one on like a blow up mattress on the floor. And we were watching a movie and just kind of his quiet moment. And the Dexcom alarm goes off. And it's super low reading. And so it was we treated it the same way where we tend to treat with sugar first. And we had no we had no idea. She was I think she was 49 Two arrows down and she had like three and a half units of insulin on board. To this day, we still don't even really know what happened. And so she had sugar continued to drop, we pricked her finger, and she actually that time said, Mom, I want to use Gvoke and so We have several of them. And so we opened it, she actually injected it herself into her the first time I did it in her arm. Second time, she gave it to herself right in her thigh. And same recovery scenario. It was amazing. It worked really quickly. And I knew that it was going to give her what she needed, so that we avoided that biggest fear.   Stacey Simms  35:19 Stacy here again, just jumping back into give this disclaimer, it's really important to understand that Individual results may vary. And you've always got to consult your healthcare provider.   Cami  35:28 Right? I mean, think of severe hypoglycemia, you think of someone on the floor on that worst case scenario? I mean, really, that's what you're thinking, think of incapacitation? And I mean, is my child going to lose his or her life, I mean, that that's really what we've kind of been trained to think about severe low, and there was sort of this paradigm shift for me in my mind about using glucagon, not to say that you use glucagon every time you have a low, not at all, you know, always, of course, treat with sugar. But there are scenarios given the way technology has progressed, we know when someone is headed for disaster, we can prick a finger, we can look on it next time, we can look at their symptoms. And we know that in the absence of intervention, something bad's gonna happen. And with G voc, you can use that to ward off that unimaginable moment of someone passing out. Actually, that's a perfect time to bring up the last time she's just a little over a year ago. She was at a slumber party. That was a birthday party 13th birthday party. I know the mom quite well. She's one of those very supportive moms that you just want to hug and say thank you for understanding and for taking this on and sleeping with one eye open when my daughter spent the night at your house, they had gone out to dinner, they went to PF Changs. And so she had shared a bunch of food with our friends. And they've gone back to the house and they were all getting ready to go swimming. And Macy got a LOW Alert ello w. And I was like, oh, okay, and so we stayed on the phone. And she said, Yep, she just administered it, and she feels fine. And, you know, call you back in a few minutes. She knew she needed it, she was afraid she was gonna pass out. And she administered her Gvoke, her blood sugar popped up within a few short moments. And she never had to experience the full blown incapacitation, that gives me such comfort, knowing that she knows how and when to use that. Because you don't know when it could happen. as vigilant as we all want to be they happen. And so knowing that she has the confidence to pull that out and know when she needs to use it is a massive source of comfort for me. And we're   Stacey Simms  37:20 going to start wrapping up in just a couple of minutes. And I have another quick question for you can we but I want to share, we need to set the amount of comfort, we'd have not had to administer anything that wouldn't have gone. I would have liked it in a few places. We've been to some external markers, that red box here. But one of my proudest parenting moments, wasn't even there for freshman year of high school being wrestled in high school for a couple of years. And we didn't do this in high school, but the sports teams to travel now love them. And they fundraise and they say right hotels and I, I had an instance where I was, you know, still following me as a freshman, and I couldn't reach him. So I called the teen mom. And she was like, Oh, he's actually my son tonight. Like, I'll ping them. And of course, he just wasn't looking at his phone. And he was like, I was laying on me. That's kind of mine. Fine. But he came home though. I said, What would you have done? Like, let's talk this through more, because now I am thinking about more. You know, how do you manage that he's like, Oh, my gosh, luck is anytime I'm with new people overnight between summer camp and wrestling and sleepovers. Anytime when we meet people, I take out the G book United type 1 diabetes I'm going to be and this is the other thing I'm not drinking, if I'm passed out or I'm slurring my orders or anything like that, I'm actually Lucky's like, call the coach then use this and he shows them how to use it as well. Like I really don't want another 15 years of administering. Yeah. But at the same time, I was really proud. And then I said, Well, do you ever like Does anybody ever gets to change rooms? Because of the hammer because of the BB? And he's like, Oh, my God, Mom, I already see what works, you know. But I was really so my one of my last questions who can be here as I don't have a child who has used this? You would like you said, you were there the first time there was another adult there the second time she used it, but have you been talked about? Like, how is it helping? The chief? She fearful? What is she doing? She think about it? You   Cami  39:11 know, I've asked her? And she said she just feel safer? Because she knows that there. She's not scared of it. And to me that's everything because there's a lot of fear involved in this disease, fear of your client, my blood sugar is too high. What's that going to cause in the in the future? I mean, we're we're constantly you know, trying to mimic them an organ, a human organs. You know, there there's a lot involved in that. So just knowing that that component, that fear factor part of it, she's got a plan. She believes she's covered. If she gets to that point, and we do everything possible to avoid it, of course, like all of us do. But if God forbid it happened again, she'll know what to do. And that's amazing that Benny educate other people. I think that that's huge because sort of like wearing your seatbelt right? We we don't put our seatbelts on every day when we get in the car because we think we have a high probability of getting a new car accident but what if we put our seatbelts on? It's the same kind of concept   Stacey Simms  40:09 you're listening to Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms. Big thanks again to CAMI for zooming on in again, she broke her arm just before the event. And I give her so much credit. I had a crowd to talk to. But she was basically just looking at herself. You know how Zoom is. So I really appreciate that. Kami. Thank you so much. We did take some questions after that last comment of camis. I know it ended a little bit abruptly, but the audio really fell off. After that. There's only so much that John can do with his editing magic. If you liked what you heard, please share the episode. And please join us for mom's Night Out Charlotte in February. And for our other three stops in 2024. I am scheduled to share those locations this week. As you're listening I may have already done it. So please be sure that you're following me on social media. You can always reach out though Stacy at diabetes dash connections.com I will say there was one city that we heard the most comments from and that is on our list. So definitely let me know if your city or a place you cannot get to is on the list. Definitely ping me for 2025 We are listening to you. And we are I mean I'm going forward with this full steam ahead in probably four events a year until I don't know until people stop coming. Thanks again to jump you Candace, my editor and a big thanks again to Xeris for all of their support. I'm gonna read that important safety information one more time. Gvoke is a prescription injection for the treatment of very low blood sugar in adults and kids with diabetes age two and above. Do not use if you have a specific type of adrenal or pancreatic tumor starvation chronic low blood sugar or allergy to Gvoke High Blood Pressure hyperglycemia and serious skin rash can occur while your doctor or get medical help right away. If you have a serious allergic reaction including rash difficulty breathing or low blood pressure, visit Gvoke glucagon.com/risk For more information, I'm gonna link all of that up and the link in the show notes. And Stacey Simms. Thanks so much for joining me. I'll see you back here soon. Until then be kind to yourself.   Benny  42:14 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Simms media. All rights reserved. All wrongs avenged.

This episode title is a bit misleading (sorry!) because Benny is actually marking 17 years with type 1! He's away at college and while I hope to talk to him for the show soon, we just couldn't swing it in time for his actual diaversary. To mark the date, we're going to replay the first time I talked to Benny for this podcast – which I did along with my husband and my daughter back in 2016. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Find out more about Moms' Night Out - we have announced FOUR LOCATIONS for 2024! Use promo code MOM30 to save $30 off any city This is a longer episode, so I wanted to break it down a bit - and a full transcription is below. 00:00 2023 Stacey introduction, talks about Benny's 17th diaversary 03:55 2016 Stacey explains how the order of interviews and a few housekeeping notes 05:22 Slade 24:27 Lea 40:42 Slade (part 2) 1:12:15 Benny 1:26:07 2023 Stacey wraps it up   Please visit our Sponsors & Partners - they help make the show possible! Take Control with Afrezza  Omnipod - Simplify Life Learn about Dexcom  Edgepark Medical Supplies Check out VIVI Cap to protect your insulin from extreme temperatures Learn more about AG1 from Athletic Greens  Drive research that matters through the T1D Exchange The best way to keep up with Stacey and the show is by signing up for our weekly newsletter: Sign up for our newsletter here Here's where to find us: Facebook (Group) Facebook (Page) Instagram Twitter Check out Stacey's books! Learn more about everything at our home page www.diabetes-connections.com  Reach out with questions or comments: info@diabetes-connections.com Episode transcription below - our transcription service doesn't speak diabetes perfectly, so please excuse any mistakes. Thanks! Stacey Simms 0:05 This is Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms. This week is my son's 17th diversity 17 years with type one to mark what's really his entry into being a young adult with T1D. He's almost 19 We're going to take a look back at when he was a lot younger. We've got a replay of the first time I talked to Benny for this podcast back in 2016. It's a conversation that also includes my husband and my daughter. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Welcome to another week of the show. I'm your host, Stacey Simms. And you know, we aim to educate inspire about diabetes with a focus on people who use insulin. I am not great about remembering Benny's exact dye aversary. And most of the reason why is because his diagnosis was very, it was prolonged, I would say it really only took a week, maybe a week or a couple of days from the time that I called our pediatrician and said, I don't like what I'm seeing Something's really wrong to an actual in hospital diagnosis and, and all the education that goes with it. But we had so many bumps along the way. And I've told these stories before, you know, a fasting blood glucose. That was normal, it was 80. And that was on a Monday. And then some subsequent diagnoses of things that we now know were just symptoms, you know, infection, things like that, that they treated, and we thought, yeah, we got it. And then finally, the A1C results, which came back five days after that initial fasting blood glucose, which is when they sent us to the hospital, all of that to say I remember the days of the week, Monday was the pediatrician Saturday was the phone call to go to the hospital. But I never remember the actual dates. Social media memories usually remind me and sure thing they came up this morning. So I'm recording this on Benny's actual 17 year diver serie on December 2, December also means and I need to tell you one quick thing about moms night out that the early bird special for Charlotte is over. I do have a promo code for you that you can use on the regular price to save $30 off. And that promo code is m n o 30. Mom's night out m and o 30. You'll save $30. With that I will put a link in the show notes. You can always go to diabetes dash connections.com. We have a mom's Night Out tab as well there now. If you go there we are announcing our next cities this week, I may have already done so. So follow on social for that announcement or click on over to the website, click on the mom's side out tab. See the new cities registration is not open for them. But you can sign up to be emailed directly when registration does open. And for more information. All right. I am hoping to talk to Benny for a new episode soon. As you know he's away at college. And I cannot wait to get that kid home for winter break. As this episode goes live. I think he's coming home in about 10 days, not that I'm counting diabetes, while he's been away has been fine. But I've tried really hard not to ask him a lot of bout it other than once in a while like you're doing okay. Right? Because we don't follow his Dexcom anymore. And I really don't know much day to day. You know, he's reordered supplies with me. So I know he's he's doing that kind of stuff. I can't wait to talk to him more. I will let you know when we're going to be taking questions for that episode, we'll post to the Facebook group for that. These conversations you're about to hear were recorded in fall of 2016. Benny is in sixth grade, his voice hasn't even changed yet. Oh, my goodness, I left in the original introduction, which gives more context. But I also want you to know, this is a much longer discussion than I remember. So I'm going to do more comprehensive shownotes with some time codes, if you want to kind of jump around on this episode and pick and choose where you want to listen. So here we go. My family's thoughts on one decade. Remember, this is seven years ago with type one. Stacey Simms 03:55 This part of the podcast is usually where I interview somebody else get them to share their story and their thoughts about living with diabetes. This is different. This is my family's story. And let me tell you, this is what I've done my entire career, talk to people interview people since before I even graduated from college. And these are the toughest interviews I've ever done. I was so nervous. But they were they were wonderful. And I was just thrilled that they agreed to even talk to me. My husband and my daughter are really not front and center. Attention people. I don't know how they live that way. But here's how it's going to go. You're going to first hear from me and my husband Slade. And then you'll hear from Leah. We're in the middle of that interview. I'm going to pause the conversation. And then you'll hear Leah's interview, because I had maybe the most Frank, honest and open conversation about our brothers diabetes that we've ever had. And then we'll wrap that up and you'll hear more from me and slay And then finally you'll hear from Benny. Oh my gosh, that kid, if you have a middle school boy, maybe you'll understand that conversation was, let's say it was interesting. There is a bit of overlap in these conversations as you'd expect. I mean, there are some events that we all talk about. So you'll hear about those things more than once, that sort of thing. Okay, here we go. I'm really interested to see what we talked about today because Slade doesn't really talk about Benny's diabetes publicly. I mean, of course, you you're very, very involved, and you talk about it, I'm sure with friends, and things like that. But it's not like you are front and center at functions. And, you know, that kind of thing over the years, I don't Slade 5:41 have a podcast, Stacey Simms 5:43 I could help you set one up. But I've been told in the past, I speak enough for everybody in the family. So I'm really interested to hear what you have to say if your conversation matches mine. Alright, so let's start 10 years ago, Ben, he was diagnosed with type one. He was not yet two years old. And Leo was just had just turned five. What I remember vividly is the month before he was diagnosed, when I was working at WB T, doing morning radio, you got the kids every morning. So you used to text me, like 730 or seven o'clock every morning and say, you know, kids are okay are off to daycare or you know, here's a funny picture. And you texted me one day and said you are not going to believe the amount of pee that came out of this kid. Do you remember that? Like the mattress is soaked in the floor was wet. I Slade 6:35 remember one morning, getting him out of his crib, right? And the entire mattress was soaking wet. Like everything. All the blankets were wet. The pillow was where the entire mattress was. So it was I'm like it didn't make any sense to me. Stacey Simms 6:53 Right. And you know me at work. I was kind of thinking when you trade off like we did because sleep had a restaurant for many years. So I had the kids in the afternoon and in the evening when he was working. And he had the kids every morning because I used to do a morning radio show that started at 5am. And I just remember thinking, not on my shift like you gotta fix Slade 7:14 which I did right away. Of course, drying the mattress out trying to figure out what happened, but we Stacey Simms 7:19 kind of thought it was a one off. Oh, yeah. Because it didn't happen again for a while. Yeah. And then it happened to get about three weeks later. Well, Slade 7:25 we noticed I think from that point on over the next couple of weeks that he was drinking a tremendous amount of liquid for a 18 month old or 20 month old. It was you know, and he would suck down a little 10 ounce sippy cup in like, you know, 15 or 20 seconds. It was absurd. Stacey Simms 7:45 So the the mattress wedding thing was in October, I think late October or something. And then of course, there was Halloween, which I'm sure didn't do him any favors. That was the year the kids dressed up. But it was the only matching costume we ever did. Leo was Ariel and Benny was flounder. And then, at Thanksgiving, we had family photos on the Friday of Thanksgiving that year. And then we went to the lazy five ranch. And I've told this story before one of my brothers was here, right brother David was there, right? And I posted that picture recently on Facebook of David and Benny with a giant glass of orange juice. And then we went to the lazy five ranch and of course Benny couldn't he was still in diapers and he was soaked and he was just laying down and he was exhausted. He felt like garbage. And then that Monday, we went to the pediatrician that Monday right after Thanksgiving, right? And Slade 8:37 then I mean, I think they did a fasting glucose and a few other things. And they thought he had a urinary tract infection knew and I already had suspicions that it was something more like it didn't make any sense. Yeah. And then it was a few days into an antibiotic for what they thought was a urinary tract infection and there was no change. And so his outward symptoms continued to be the same right where he drank tremendous amounts of water and liquid and was always going to the bathroom. Stacey Simms 9:08 Well on that Monday when we went to the doctor his as you said his fasting glucose was normal. It was 80. And then they did a blood draw. They must have found something in his urine, right? They must have found sugar in it because I remember they did a urine test to do a urine test on a kidney. They didn't Slade 9:24 remember that we had to kind of push for them to do an A1C like they it took a week or so. Yeah, Stacey Simms 9:30 but we didn't ask for A1C We just asked for a blood test. I didn't know what we were asking for did I remember holding you had to hold him down? Yes, I did have to hold them down Leah was in the hallway Leah remembers that remember some screaming? Slade 9:40 It wasn't exactly pleasant. Stacey Simms 9:44 Yeah, and then he did that they said I had a urinary tract infection. And I remember when we treated it he seemed to feel better once a day right just from the urinary because he did have one but you know job raucous or pediatrician friend down the street said to me Why would a healthy two year old boy have a urinary You're trying to keep keep looking. So I was convinced at this point that he was he had contracted a fatal disease. I was on the internet. I was looking at all sorts of horrible things. I thought he had kidney cancer. I really did. I was so scared. And then he seemed to feel better. And then on Saturday, they called us and David was still here. And they called us on Saturday and said, like it was an emergency get to the hospital. But they wouldn't. They didn't tell me why. Well, they did tell they thought they told me why because they told me his blood sugar was like, you know, 700, or the A1C correlated to, you know, I don't know what it was. But I remember thinking, He's fine. He looks fine. He's doing okay. Why do we have to rush to the hospital? But we did. Slade 10:33 Yeah. But I remember during that week that we kind of, we were guessing that it might have been diabetes? Stacey Simms 10:42 Oh, well, yeah. Because most people and you know, the symptoms matched perfectly. But I think it was the fasting glucose being kind of normal that threw me off. And I of course, went to worst case scenario, Slade 10:51 you went, you definitely went deeper. But you know, still concern. Yeah. Not knowing. And it's, it's a scary thing, when the doctor calls and says, Take your kid to the emergency room. And you go while he's walking around playing with some toys, he's just fine. So and then, of course, it's just a, it's a crash course. Right? You get admitted in two days later, you're out and you have diabetes and have to live with it the rest of your lives. Stacey Simms 11:19 Oh, you know, one thing I forgot is, when we took him to the pediatrician that first time on the Monday after Thanksgiving, when I called, we knew just enough to say he's got the symptoms of type one. We knew that much that the pain and the drinking, because of all the stuff I'd done with JDRF already and in Charlotte, and my pediatrician, Dr. Scott said, I've never seen it in anybody younger than two. Right, bring him in, and we'll rule it out. And thankfully, you know, they took us seriously because I've heard some nightmare stories of people that don't. But what's funny is, here we are 10 years later, almost every time I go to that pediatrician, and it's one of these big practices with like eight doctors, they all look at Benny's chart and we go in, they say, oh, like he was the youngest one we saw at that time, you know, and now of course, there's lots of kids that are diagnosed younger, unfortunately. But for that practice, it was it was unusual. It's pretty unique. Slade 12:07 Yeah, I just I just distinctly remember that we had to push a little bit. Yeah. To get them to think in that direction. Stacey Simms 12:15 Oh, when he walked in with AD, yeah, they tried to figure out something else. So Slade 12:19 I mean, I think all that really says is, doesn't matter what the age or what you're thinking, you have to be your own advocate, you know, in some way, shape or form, if you're not your voice, then there's an opportunity to miss something. Right? Not get a good look at it. So I think that I think that not going down the you know, the rabbit hole right? To something considerably more catastrophic. And trying to rule that stuff out. You have to, you have to ask and you have to instruct and you have to, you know, your medical team, you have to be part of the conversation, right? You can't just tell me what to do. Stacey Simms 13:04 But it's hard to in some ways, because you don't know what you don't know. But you're I agree with you. You have to we've learned this for many years. Now. You got to push you got to be your own advocate, you got to ask questions. But, you know, if I didn't know, peeing and drinking was a sign of type one, I don't think I would have known what to ask the doctor. Right. But Slade 13:19 I also think that that I don't think doctors are offended by that. I think that that helps them do what they're trained to do is help. Help people get better. And if you're not engaged in the conversation, it's a one way street. Yeah. It Stacey Simms 13:32 would help. Alright, so we're in the hospital now. And I remember he had those things. What are those things called all over you with a stick you the sticky things I had like an Slade 13:41 EKG monitor, right, and he kept pulling Stacey Simms 13:43 them off? Slade 13:44 Yeah, that couldn't have felt good. Stacey Simms 13:48 That was like when we first started using the Hulk analogy, because he was like the baby Hulk pulling everything off. Slade 13:54 Well, it's interesting, and he doesn't have any idea what's going on. Stacey Simms 13:57 But that night, we took turns, you know, you went home. I stayed. And they pretty much didn't tell us until the middle of the night that he had type one. They kind of I think everybody thought we knew. And finally I asked if they had a diagnosis. And they said, Yeah, he's got they would like yeah, he's got type 1 diabetes. I mean, they were nasty about it. But I think everybody thought someone else had told us along the way. Slade 14:19 We didn't see Dr. Werner alto second day or the next day. Yes. We Stacey Simms 14:23 went in on Saturday morning or Saturday, mid morning. We saw nurses and hospitalists there was that one horrible woman. She came in and she smelled. She didn't say anything to us, like not Hello, how are you? I'm so and so she came right in and smelled him. And now I know it was for fruity breath. Right? So when she came in, she smelled him. And you know, I am of course very calm. I said, What are you doing to my son? Who were you? She kind of explained but she kind of left us like you're not coming back and just I don't know what I said. I'm sure it was very nice. But yeah, that night we met the hospitalist. And that was when that was when he said to me, who stays home with Benny, not our endocrinologist, but but just a hospitalist, a doctor who sees people in hospital. And I was already panicking because I had my dream job. And I had health insurance. You had a restaurant you owned a restaurant is that like you can untangle from that pretty easily? You know, I'm closing the doors. When Slade 15:21 we tried to untangle from it, it took a long time. Stacey Simms 15:25 And I was terrified because it couldn't really quit. I wanted to quit my job. But I had to health insurance and I really didn't want to quit my job either. So we said who stays home with Benny? I said, nobody really nasty. And then I burst into tears. And you weren't there. And Vinnie, do not remember you were not there. He was another night. And then then he put his kidneys awake. He's 23 months old. He puts his arm around me. He says it's okay, Mommy. I was like, Dude, you better get your stuff together to myself. You bet this is your 10 year old is comforting you this is not how it's supposed to work. And that was a big turning point for me. And like the guy was great. He said, I'm sorry. He said, What I should have said is what's your situation? He's like, I'm just trying to help you acclimate? And he told us even go back to daycare. And he you know, nobody said no to us. They'll try to help us figure out how to make it work. But that moment was a big turning point for me. Slade 16:14 I don't think I had any big turning points. I mean, the only thing that I realized was, you know, when we finally did come home, and you know, I went grocery shopping. Stacey Simms 16:26 Oh my god, wait. So hold on. Let's get there. So we met Dr. V. The next morning on a Sunday. And he came in and I remember him coming in and saying hi to us and being great. But getting right on the floor with Benny. Yeah, Slade 16:39 and what I remember. And and you have a better memory than I do. But what I remember is him saying listen, based on where we are today with treating this. There isn't any reason he shouldn't have the exact same life he would have without diabetes that he has with diabetes. I mean, that was that was that just set the tone? Right? Stacey Simms 17:00 Yeah, it really did. And I remember, thank you. I will anyway, I remember, like my first questions to him, because what do you know about diabetes? Right? You know, type two, I remember thinking and asking him like, do I have to cut his toenails differently? Like? He was like, Oh, I could see, right? Yeah, take a deep breath. And like, this lady is gonna be fun. But he got right on the floor and met Benny and I don't think he had kids at that point. He did not. Yeah. And he was terrific. But I interviewed him. I said to him, you know, I'm glad to meet you. But you know, I don't know anything about endocrinology, or endocrinologist, or endocrinologist in this town. Right? Of course, I want to make sure that my child has the best. So I asked him a million questions. And he was great. He was really great. Yeah, Slade 17:49 I just think he set the tone that said, hey, what you're going to deal with is lifelong. And then that's the way it is. But it's not life threatening. Yeah. Doesn't have to be life threatening, right? Stacey Simms 18:03 He didn't he didn't come in and tell us a cure is around the corner. He talked a little bit about the artificial pancreas. I remember because I asked him about technology. He he did say that they were one of the first practices in the country that routinely gave pumps to toddlers, because this was 2006. So that wasn't happening all over the place that he thought that Benny we know down the road, we would talk about that. But he was not overly he didn't promise anything. Slade 18:30 No, actually he did. He promised us Benny would have a normal life if he took care of himself. Right? Well, that's true. It didn't make that that's Stacey Simms 18:36 true. And that was very reassuring. And he has been consistent in these 10 years. He said, The three things that he says at almost every appointment, I'm pretty sure he told us then, which was he wants to make sure that he can live a long, healthy life he's supposed to, that he has, he feels good, and can enjoy life right now. And that we find a way to make diabetes fit into what he wants to do, and not the other way around. And we've been able to do that pretty much. It's not you know, when people say, Oh, diabetes can't stop you. I mean, some of that I, you know, I shake my head a little bit or I raise an eyebrow because, you know, obviously diabetes definitely can slow you down. And there are days when it can stop you. That's okay. I mean, you know, when you break your leg, it's gonna stop you. You know, I you know, it's I know, it's a mindset more than a truism. But, you know, I think we've had a pretty realistic look at it. Yeah, I Slade 19:27 think you as you go through, particularly growing up, and there's, you know, there's minefields everywhere, right? It's just one more minefield, right? I mean, it's something else, you have to navigate it and it gets added into your routine added into the way that you think. And it's, yeah, it's a it's a burden because it's different than what a lot of your peers have to deal with. Is it a burden in it in that it can be a roadblock to accomplishing something you want to accomplish? like you and I think that way, I don't think that's true. Stacey Simms 20:02 We try not do not it's not a not a dead end road, you can make it that way. Well, it can be a roadblock that you can overcome, right. But it shouldn't stop you in your tracks. Slade 20:11 You can do a lot of what was me? Well, yeah, well, that's different, right? You can do a lot of what was me, but there isn't. There's a, there's a roadmap to accomplishing what you want to accomplish with diabetes. All Stacey Simms 20:24 right. Speaking of routine, let's talk about that grocery store. Slade 20:28 That was hysterical. So, you know, of course, you know, when you talk about diabetes, you talk about carbs, right. And as you load your body up with carbohydrates, you need insulin, Stacey Simms 20:38 oh, and I should add, we were put on a carb counting regime or a carb counting routine. Immediately. We didn't do any eat to the insulin, it was all give them as many shots as you want, right? And count carbs and dose him that way. Right. I mean, obviously, at first, we tried not to give him a lot of injections. But we were some people go on different routines at first, right? We weren't, we were all carb counting from the beginning, Slade 21:00 right? But it's really all about, you know, the basics of understanding how to take care of yourself is you have to know what you ingest, right? You have to know what you eat. And you can give yourself insulin to help your body, right, continue to move forward and act the way it should act right by adding an insulin. So we're like, you know, maybe we should really go low carb or no carb. So I went to the grocery store, I think I spent two and a Stacey Simms 21:30 half hours. That's what I was gonna say. It was definitely two hours. And Slade 21:34 I it's I think I know the label of every item in the grocery. But I just went and bought everything that was low carb when he came home and put it in the cupboards and put in the refrigerator and he loved some of the food and fed it to him for a few days and then realized we were feeding him fat. Yeah, Stacey Simms 21:50 we did two weeks almost of Atkins, basically. And I lost about six pounds. It was, I'm sure that had nothing to do with being crazy. But yeah, I mean, we went from eating, moderate. Everything in moderation and pretty healthy. I mean, our kids were five and not an almost two. It's not like they were drinking soda and McDonald's all the time. But we were eating things like oatmeal for breakfast and pancakes and stuff. And we went to eating sausage. And I don't it was ridiculous. Like everything Slade 22:19 was a lot of me. Yeah, it was a lot of meat and a lot of cheese. And we realized is we're just gonna, we're just eating fat, and we're gonna kill him. So after a couple of weeks, I actually threw a bunch of that stuff out. But Stacey Simms 22:29 the turning point for me or the final straw was when you were like, how about pork rinds? That's a good snack. He's doing we're Jewish. I mean, we don't keep kosher, but I don't remember. I was like, that's, I know, many people enjoy pork rinds. I'm not. I don't, I bet he would love them. Now. You can find some things, I mean, olives, beef jerky, Slade 22:56 just remember kind of throwing it out and go, that's it, we're just going to, I'm going to feed him the way we would normally feed him. And, and we will treat him medically the way that we are given the tools to do it. And that's what we're gonna do. Stacey Simms 23:08 And we also counted every carb tried to do it exactly. I think it's I think the whole thing, we figured it out two hours of routine to our day, because we had a yellow legal pad, right, we wrote everything down. We've got all the food, the dosage, the routine, but we were counting carbs, and ketchup, and green peas. And I mean everything because that's what we were told to do. Right. And I remember going for a follow up, when you go for free first followed two months later, one month later, and there was a mom and dad was like, really? This is excellent. But you do not need to do with the two cards that are in the ketchup. Well, Slade 23:40 I still think actually, that's kind of important, because you need to understand that it's out there. You need, I mean, their cards, you're ingesting Stacey Simms 23:47 what we need, and we needed to do it then to learn. Yeah. Slade 23:49 And that's what happens is you learn you know, kind of what carbs are, where they are, where they're hidden, how your body reacts to them, particularly how Benny's body reacts to them. And then it's really kind of an art at that point, right? It's not really a science. I mean, there's all kinds of ratios and logarithms and all that stuff. But it really comes down to everyone's body is a little different. And it's it's much more like juggling right than it is like anything else. Stacey Simms 24:27 I'm gonna pause my talk with Slade here and bring in our daughter Leah. She's three years older than Benny four years ahead in school because of where their birthdays fall. And about 40 years older in maturity right now, you know, it's okay to say that I was so happy she agreed to talk to me about this. And this might be the best discussion we've had about her brother and diabetes. I will say I remember a few things a little differently. But this is her story. Alright, so let's start at the very beginning. I when I talked to dad, we talked about when Benny was first day He noticed and one of the things that I brought up was when we had to take the first blood draw. You were outside of the doctor's office. Do you remember that? No, Lea 25:08 I remember the electrodes, but and him always pulling them off. But I don't remember the blood draw. We Stacey Simms 25:13 because you went to the pediatricians office with us. And he was screaming his head off, and you were in the hallway. Because you were just you just turned 508. Lea 25:21 I think I do. Remember I was playing with my LeapFrog. And I was sitting in the hallway. And I was like, I would hear screaming, but I'd be like, Oh, it's whatever. It's fine. I'm gonna play my game. Stacey Simms 25:33 And then we went when Benny was in the hospital. You remember the electrodes and Uncle David was with that Lea 25:38 was funny. I mean, because I didn't understand what was going on. So it was funny, because he had electrodes all over him. And he would just like, pull them off. So they couldn't do anything. And I mean, he was crying and like, you were very frustrated. And I'm just laughing because I had no idea what was going on. Stacey Simms 25:52 And then the next day, we actually went ice skating. It was our community ice skating thing with when we were making the temple. It was like our first time though, into the ice skating rink. Lea 26:01 Did the rabbi go, Stacey Simms 26:03 I don't think they had the rabbi yet. It was just us. And you were very little. Okay, so you remember, okay, so what do you do you remember, like, what kind of things you remember from when you were little. Lea 26:14 I remember very general stuff. I don't really remember like specific instances. Like when he was first diagnosed, I didn't think anything was wrong. But apparently he was like, drinking too much and peeing too much. And I was just like, Yeah, whatever. Because I was not the biggest fan of my little brother. And I remember, as he got older, and I think it was more, I was less of like a small child and more of like, preteen, I was very upset because he'd always get so much attention, which now it's like, you get it, because it's an awful horrible thing and all blah, he needs all this stuff. But as as a small child, it was like, pay attention to me, Mother, I exist to you have a second child who was actually your first child. But you know, it was cool. I was an only child for four years, which was a wonderful thing. Stacey Simms 27:03 It was like, almost three years. Before, it was three Lea 27:07 years. Like for almost four. Stacey Simms 27:10 It was almost three, it was three U turn three, November, whatever. And then he was boring. Okay, very similar. But I remember a lot of when you were very little as you were a big helper. Like when he was first born, you would help me with the help with the baby, you would help with diapers, you would read to him every night, you know, to get sick of him all that stuff. And the same thing with diabetes. You wanted to learn how to do everything. You guys would give shots to the stuffed animals. Lea 27:35 Oh, yeah. The Little Bear and there were like little patches on it. Yeah. That's Rufus the bear with diabetes. Oh, that's fun. Stacey Simms 27:44 That's nice. And right. So you would do that. But you were very helpful to me in the backseat of the car. Because when you have a kid in a baby seat, basically, right, he was in front facing. I don't remember what the requirements were now. But like, you'd have the three point harness the five point harness those kinds of chairs. And so you were next to him? And if he was low, you you actually checked him once or twice for me when you were like five or six years old. You did? And then yes, and then you but not often, but you were very responsible. And you were like I'll do and usually I would pull over if I needed to like if dad wasn't mad. That's I mean, it wasn't making you do it. But you did it once or twice. But you were always willing and helping me the juice boxes and stuff like that. So much Lea 28:23 has changed. Stacey Simms 28:27 But then as you got older, like you said, it became more of a why? Why him? Why are you giving all the attention kind of thing? Lea 28:34 Because I never, I mean, until now I never really fully understood what, like, why he got so much of the attention. It was always just like, you spent so much time like talking to him talking about him, like calling people about it. And just you had all this you had like Lantis and Hume along, whatever all that stuff is just words that I hear around the house. But you had all of these packages shipped, like every couple of months or like, whatever you would go to these conventions and the walks and it was just like, well, let me do my walk, Dude, where's the layup walk? Stacey Simms 29:09 Do you think we should have done a better job educating you about diabetes? Because I feel like we did tell you it's Lea 29:14 not that I wasn't. It's not that I didn't really understand what it was it was just that like, I was a child. And I still am a child, but it's like, pay attention to me pay attention to me. It wasn't that I didn't know that it was some awful thing that he like needed to have all this attention because I knew that it was just like, why can't I also have attention? It wasn't like I was trying to take it away from him. It was just like me to say him. Stacey Simms 29:37 What would your advice be to parents listening to this who have a kid with type one and other kids who don't in the family? Lea 29:43 Well, you certainly don't have to. You shouldn't like take attention away from a child with diabetes just because one of your other children is feeling a little like left out but that doesn't mean that you can be you can totally ignore that child because they're still like They're your child. They're there, they need you. But it's, I think it would be better if you if someone explained to me that, like, if you'd like sat me down, and with Benny, and been like, this is what's happening, blah, blah, blah. This is why we give them so much attention. It's not that we don't love you. And just something like that. And sure, I probably still want to complain, but whatever. Like, it's fine. Stacey Simms 30:23 So like, the little things that we tried to do, like weekends away, or just you and me stuff like that, like spending, Lea 30:29 spending a weekend with my dad or with my mom, like, that's great. Because it's, it shows like, sure you spend basically every second of every day worrying about this other kid. But you still have time for me, which is pretty awesome. Stacey Simms 30:43 So tell me about camp a little bit, because this is something that you and Benny share that you do not really share with me and your dad. You I don't know if you remember, but used to come home from camp. This is the regular summer camp slip away for about a month. And tell Benny, it's gonna be so great. You're gonna love it, you know, can't wait. So you would go and I would always think there's no way. There's no way and you were ready to go when you were eight. And when he was eight, I was not ready for him to go. But we sent him anyway. What? Do you remember why you want them to go? Did you just think he would have fun? Lea 31:14 Well, I mean, when he first went, what unit like, well, how old was I? When he first went? Stacey Simms 31:21 Well, he was bony one. So you would have been three years older than that. I don't know how we can never keep track of those things. Well, he Lea 31:26 was like eight when he when he was eight. So I would have been like 11. Yeah. So at 11 It was still very much like it will because because of the fact that he's had diabetes, and we've known for so long. It's just kind of part of our lives. And I don't think of it as like this huge deal. Like it's just something that he just has to deal with him. It's like whatever, because he's a normal kid. It's not like, it's not like some other things that people can get where like you see, like, what you see the symptoms or you see, like the damage that it does, it's just sort of something that you have to deal with. And it's just like, whatever. So, I mean, it never even occurred to me that like he wouldn't go to a sleepaway camp, because that was just like, oh, yeah, it's like, Andy has diabetes. It's like, he's got brown eyes. He's got diabetes, like whatever. So, I mean, it was it was just, like, such a fun place to like to go and to get away. And it was, like, you get to do so much there that you don't really get to do at home. And it was never, it was never about him. Like, oh my gosh, he's my brother. I love him so much. I want to come to camp. It was like, I want you to experience this wonderful place. But it was it was never, it was never about the diabetes. It was just about him wanting to like go, Stacey Simms 32:37 I don't think he ever would have gone if you hadn't been so excited about it. Because that was part of the reason I wanted him to go because you liked it so much. That was wonderful. Yeah, he's really has a good time there. I mean, I'm so glad you had such a great experience to Lea 32:50 take my place. Okay, Stacey Simms 32:52 okay. All right. So that was great. I can't Unknown Speaker 32:55 go anymore. Yeah, Stacey Simms 32:56 you're too old for camp. Now. That stinks. No, Lea 32:59 but I can go back this summer if I wanted to. Next summer next summer. Yeah, but I don't think I would I might be counselor, be counseling Stacey Simms 33:06 keep your brother in line on the different side of the camp. Okay. Has since since Benny was diagnosed, I know you've met other kids with type one. But you don't come to conferences much. So it's not like this is a hey, it's a type one atmosphere, you know, other than the walks and things? Do you feel that? First of all, have you ever talked with someone and I haven't really been asked this question. But like, do you feel like knowing about Benny's diabetes has maybe helped you get to know other kids with type one better? Lea 33:38 Not really, I mean, most of the people that I talk to, like kids my age, or adults or kids Benny's age, it's always, like, that's just sort of a thing that we both know about them that they have diabetes. And it's we don't, I mean, the most that we would ever talk about is like if they were low, or if like they had to bolus for something, and it would never be like a big deal. And most of the time, we would just talk about like, other things, just because, I mean, for me, I'm just so used to my brother having it. And for them, they have it, so they just kind of have to be used to it. So neither was ever make a big deal out of it. And it's just kind of like whatever, Stacey Simms 34:11 it would be kind of weird. For teenagers, you'd be like, so tell me about your type 1 diabetes. Lea 34:18 You wouldn't. I mean, you can certainly have a conversation with somebody else about it if you don't have it yourself. But I mean, unless you're like you're very new to what diabetes is. It's generally not a big deal. Like if you're talking to somebody who has diabetes, you generally know they have diabetes, and that's why you're talking to each other. So it's never really like a major point of discussion. If that makes any sense. Got it. Did Stacey Simms 34:47 you ever have a moment where you were scared with Benny? Lea 34:51 There was I was like, it was like five minutes where you first showed me an epi pen like in case he got like really low. Oh, the glucagon, glucagon. It's an epi pen. Stacey Simms 35:05 But it's okay. But it looks like the same thing. Lea 35:07 It does the same thing. And I remember like you came up and you showed me and it was like, this big red needle or whatever. I'd never seen anything like it. And you're and you explain the whole thing to me. Like if Benny gets really low, or this happens, or if he passes out, you have to stab him in the thigh with this giant needle. Like, if nobody else was around, you have to do it, or he's gonna die. How old was like nine, five? Stacey Simms 35:30 No, I don't think I'm kidding. I don't remember how Lea 35:35 it was before I turned 10. I remember this. And I was just like, What on earth is this? You want me to stab my brother? If he's like lying on the ground? But and you're like, keeping it in the cabinet downstairs? And it's like, what is this? But I mean, other than that, it's pretty much been totally normal. And Stacey Simms 35:52 it's funny because some of our babysitter's we found because of diabetes, and you've learned to be really good friends with them, which is pretty cool as you've gotten older. Yeah. But Lea 36:01 it was never because of their diabetes. It was just like, oh, you know how to take care of yourself. You can take care of our child. Well, it Stacey Simms 36:07 was for us it was for you had nothing to do with it. What do you care if they had diabetes, it was just one of those things that we felt, we just fell into these great, we found great people. And, you know, like our neighbor, Christina, who was diagnosed as a young adult, and now she's family friends, which is really nice. She's pretty awesome. She is pretty. So family is pretty awesome. Do you worry about Ben growing up with diabetes or being an adult with diabetes? Now? Have you ever even thought about it? Um, Lea 36:29 I'm not worried for him. Not, not with him being able to take care of himself because he's totally capable. I'm just worried about like, what other people might say about it. Because when, because, people when you hear diabetes, you think of like, generally what people think of diabetes I think of as normally type two, which you can get, which is like, generally related to like obesity, or just being overweight and not healthy. But he has type one, which is totally different. And I just, I don't know, kids are mean. I mean, really, kids are kids are mean. And I don't know, I'm not worried about him. I'm worried about everybody else. Stacey Simms 37:06 In what they're gonna say that you'll beat them up if they're meeting of course. Alright, let me just make sure before we start, people had questions. I think they were mostly for Benny, but somebody did so offended. Will do me a question. It gets all the attention. I Lea 37:21 know. Isn't it? Great? Let's see if all this it's okay to complain about your sibling getting all the attention. I think that's a great point. Stacey Simms 37:30 Definitely. It's okay to complain better than season. Lea 37:34 See thing. Don't hate your parents. They're just trying to keep your other sibling alive. Oh, Stacey Simms 37:40 this was an asked these questions. I would love your daughter's perspective. Did it cause her to be jealous? attention seeking, seeking? And how does it feel to have to worry about him? Or do you worry about him? Well, Lea 37:52 I'm gonna go with the second part of this because I feel like I've already addressed like the first part of this question, but I don't really worry about him. Like at all. It's always I know, you and dad worry about him all the time. Because it's like, what if he's not bolusing? What if he's really high? Like what's going on? But I'm just like, whatever, you can take care of himself. You won't let him die. It's okay. There's a hospital down the road, he'll be fine. I mean, I probably should worry just a little bit more than I do. But it's just, it's part of my life. It's part of his life. It's just, it's something we have to do. Well, I Stacey Simms 38:23 think what we tried to do was to make you aware, but not to make it your responsibility. I just never felt like it was your responsibility as a kid, everybody. And if you remember when he got on the bus, he was in kindergarten. So you were in fourth grade. And people a lot of people said to me, Oh, well, it's what a relief that he's on the bus because even though you can't be with him, Leah's there and she can take care of. And I never felt what I told you at the time was, you don't have to worry about his diabetes, just take care of him as a sister and brothers should take care of each other. We told him that to like, if somebody's picking on you, he needs to stand up for you. And vice versa. If you get sick, he needs to holler for help. You know, it's just that kind of stuff. It was never diabetes specific. And I know you guys looked out for each other all the time, or didn't you sit next to each other all through elementary school? Lea 39:08 No, for one grade, Stacey Simms 39:09 I think Did you really say that? I was kidding. No, Lea 39:11 I think it was no, I remember because I was in like fourth grade. So I was I was like, slowly like into like the cool part and like the back of the bus. And I was really excited about it. Because like me and all my friends. We sent like the ferry back and it was like, Oh my gosh, we're so cool. We sent back the bus. But the bus driver, it was Ben he was in like second grade or like, I Stacey Simms 39:30 don't know, I remember this. This was in kindergarten. We foster going to school to major sit together. Lea 39:34 He sat in the very front row, right? They were terrified right behind the bus driver because they were like, what if he like passes out? What if he goes totally insane where he doesn't have any food. And so they made me sit with him? Because I was at SR and like, I knew that they were olders I knew it was going on and I could like call like my mom because I knew your phone number. And I was very I was very upset. But you did Stacey Simms 39:56 that for like a week or yeah, I've been told Does Yeah, there was no, yeah. And then you were like, Mom, we need to address Lea 40:04 this. We have an issue. That's Stacey Simms 40:06 great. I forgot all about that. And he was happy to see you go to Yeah, we Lea 40:10 were both like, Go away. Get away from because my brother like he couldn't talk to females on the bus because they're like, why is your sister with you are like really awkward because like, he was like in kindergarten and I was like a cool fourth grader, not really. And so, and I was just upset because I was like, I want to go sit with my friends. Now. I don't want to do my little brother like ill. Stacey Simms 40:30 And on that note, thank you so much, sweetie. This was great. No problem. You're listening to Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms. I am so proud of her. Even though I was biting my tongue a bit. I mean, we explained diabetes a lot with her. I am sure you know that, you know. And yes, she knows an epi pen and glucagon are not the same thing. But wow. That was that was nice for me. That was really great to talk to Leah. All right, let's go back to me and Slade. And when we left off, we were started to talk about how we try to make diabetes fit into our life, rather than making life revolve around diabetes. Before before we left the hospital, though. We had a long planned event with our congregation. That that year that summer, we had also decided to help start our temple, right. That was that summer and then this this winter, this happened. But we had a an ice skating. I had planned an ice skating event in downtown Charlotte for the Sunday the day after Benny was diagnosed. So we were still in the hospital. And we talked about it and you said you should go right. And I didn't take Leah. And so you went to the hospital that day, we traded off. And I took Leah to the ice skating rink and I was really nervous. And I was really kind of upset about leaving him in the hospital. I'm so glad I did that. I'm so glad I did that. Because it showed her that life goes on. It kind of convinced me that life goes on. It was a great fun event. And our friends and our community were amazing. They were just amazing. It was so supportive of me. And they made sure we had fun. It was great. I'm so glad we did that. That was cool. Slade 42:17 Yeah, I think that kind of sets or maybe not on purpose, but kind of set the tone for how are you we're trying to normalize we we work really hard and normalizing our lives. In fact, we live our lives first and treat diabetes second, almost, right, because it's just part of what you have to do. It's kind of like you have to put your shoes on if you're gonna go outside, right. So you have to treat your diabetes when whenever you're out and about so. But I think that kind of set the tone for it, right? I mean, because you can you can get into a dark place if you don't. Stacey Simms 42:50 Well, and Dr. Dr. V. also told us probably that day, or the next day, don't buy him a pony for checking his blood sugar. Right. Don't reward him unduly because this is not going away. Yeah, it's not like, you know, oh, boy, I Slade 43:04 think you started looking at ponies Stacey Simms 43:06 I would have looked at I was looking at Porsches looking at everything. It's really funny. You know, it's it's interesting to when you talk about life goes on. I think we put him back in daycare, right? Three days later? Slade 43:19 Well, we're very fortunate. Was it three days high? It Stacey Simms 43:22 was very soon, probably within a week. And we were lucky. Slade 43:25 But we were very fortunate in that the people who are the managers at the daycare center, had had some experience, and then took it upon themselves to go and get more training. Yeah, it was crazy. So we were really fortunate, but that that wasn't common than it was only 10 years ago isn't common, but it's very common now. So I think the challenges that people have about daycare are they're much easier barriers now than when, even just 10 years ago. Stacey Simms 43:56 I would say that there are more resources to help. But I think that daycare is a huge challenge for a lot of people. I don't know how lucky we were. Slade 44:06 Well, no, I don't disagree that it's a huge challenge. But it's there are more and more kids that are diagnosed that come through the doors at daycare centers, and they are their experience level is much higher than it was 10 years. Stacey Simms 44:19 Well, what happened with us was there was a family right before us with a little girl and the mom was a teacher and a nurse. It was crazy. So she had made a whole guide book for them and came in and trained a few people. And so when we brought Benny they knew more than we did I wanted him to sleep there. I kind of did no no. And and Rebecca who was the manager who really just became part of the family for a while. And one or two of the teachers, as you said they did more training. I sent them to one of the JDRF training days and they learned along with us they were absolutely amazing. Then that little girl moved just like three days after we came back from the hospital so they weren't even there. And then the other thing I remember, I should probably stay chronological but I'll skip ahead We had a planned trip with my friends, my college roommate with Beth and Dave, to Las Vegas in. Slade 45:06 But you know, back to the daycare thing, I think the key, the key to that is, and it's kind of the way we've always dealt with it is, our objective is when we put our son in the care of somebody else, particularly early on, our objective was to make them feel as comfortable and as confident as possible, that they that they could take care of them there or, you know, we didn't put pressure on them to say, you know, you were worried you're not going to be able to, or we were scared parents, we let them know that, you know, it's if you have to dial 911, you dial 911, it's okay, you do the best that you can with the tools that we're giving you and the tools that you have. And I think that that's, that's a hard hurdle for people to get over. But I think if you get over that, you get a lot more help. Right, and you get a lot more people who, when they're when your child is in their care that they feel confident, we all know that feeling confident, no matter what you're doing, helps you perform better. So we really worked hard at trying to instill confidence in the people that were at times across the years taking care of our son. Stacey Simms 46:16 I think we were also the beneficiaries in a weird way of less or no social media. You're not on Facebook a ton, and you're not in all these diabetes groups. But I think if if I had been when Benny was diagnosed, my outlook might be different. Because some of them have 1000s and 1000s of people in them and everybody's experience is different. And you know, it is on Facebook, you only see the best and the worst. And people post a lot of nightmare stories that other people assume are the norm, and they're not. And I think I would have been more frightened, I would have loved the support. I mean, we had nobody up here for the first couple years. We didn't know anybody. But I think that that that has added to I don't want to do a whole thing on social media here. But I think that has added to some of the fear was, Slade 47:01 I think that and because social media wasn't as prevalent as it isn't, it's the same thing, right? You believe half of what you hear and less than what you read, right? I mean, it's you have to make decisions based on your own experiences. And it's okay to view other experiences and see how they might, might influence what you're doing. But you can't, you can't say it happened to that person. So it's going to happen to me. Exactly. Stacey Simms 47:26 And I will say he was great. I mean, he had highs, he had lows, he was always safe and happy, which as you know, if you listen, that's my goal is not perfect, but safe and happy. And the one time he went to the hospital was Was he he just got his thumb caught in the door. You remember he did Slade 47:41 the same thing that other people do at daycare, they get hurt falling down, you know, somebody threw a block at his head, right? I mean, that's the same kind of stuff. And you Stacey Simms 47:51 needed stitches. That was the one thing. And I was so nervous, because that wasn't too long after diagnosis, maybe a couple months, and I'm still nervous, because my oh my gosh, how are we gonna manage diabetes? Fine. It Slade 48:01 was fine. It was easy. Stacey Simms 48:02 It was easy. So the next big thing that happened in terms of life goes on was we went to Las Vegas with my college roommate. And I called my mom because she was going to come watch the kids and my parents lived in Florida. And I said, you know, I don't know if we should do this, you know, should we stay? And life goes on. You have to go you have to go. She said, You know, this is not you know, I'll do it. I'll do it. So as we started talking about she said, but I can't give them a shot. I got it. And you know what? I think she would have if she had to she would have right? Yeah. But we were very fortunate one of the girls from daycare, who was as she was trained to be a nurse, right? She was nursing student, Kristen. She was so she came over. I met her she stayed here. But she came over and did all the insulin at the weekend. And you know and mom called us a ton we were in was the Aladdin was it? It was it was the end of the Aladdin right? Because they Slade 48:59 Yeah, it wasn't. Oh, yeah, it was yeah, they return it they were tearing Stacey Simms 49:03 down around us. And so I remember distinctly like taking a call from her getting in the elevator on the Aladdin and losing the call. And then she called me back. So when we when we mean it, but we had a great time. Slade 49:15 Was that before the show we went to what show the show when Dave Stacey Simms 49:19 No, that was that was months after the show was the following weekend. It's what you tell us. Okay, so when you tell I'll tell the story. So one week after diagnosis. We're so fortunate. My brother in law David Slate's brother says four older brothers. And David is closest in age to him. So David was staying us for like a month after Thanksgiving. It was great. He was in between jobs. And he's just so close to my kids. It was wonderful. Unfortunately for him, he was here for diagnosis. So we had tickets to spam a lot. Me and you that following weekend. So again, David's like go go I've got it. I mean, David knew just as much as we did at that point. Yeah. So we get three numbers into spam a lot. I mean to know if it was that lady of the Like, I don't know where that is, or maybe I made it up. And, you know, in the phone rings, so you go out to take the call and like 15 minutes later yeah, it wasn't because I saw three numbers I think you saw like, and I went out to see what was going on. And he thought, you know, when you think about how you dose a little kid, he was 27 pounds. He was 23 months old, and he got like little puffs of insulin. But we were using syringes, right? So he would get like a quarter of a unit or you tried to estimate a half a unit and I think he was supposed to get a half a unit and David gave him six units or something like that. Or two, you couldn't have taken two units. I mean, he had this tiny little dose and David thought he gave him four times as much right? So we couldn't figure it out. So we just said forget it. We went home. As I remember Slade 50:43 on our way home. We were driving home and he had it under we never stopped him. Did we? Yes, of course. We Stacey Simms 50:49 came home. Okay, we we didn't come home. I thought we went right to the NATs house. Okay, so he's but But what happened? Is we checked or he checked. Isn't that funny? I can't remember either. We're getting old honey. So he checked or we checked and his blood sugar never felt right. He was perfectly fine. He was like, I'll make it up. He was like 150 all night. I mean, never fell. So he couldn't have possibly either do injection? Or he never miscalculated, right? Or, or Benny snuck a pizza in the middle of the night that we didn't know about. And so we were on our way home, right. And a friend of ours had had a holiday party going on that night. We're like, I will just go there Slade 51:22 just fine. So the we left the show early, right. I mean, we're 20 minutes into the show. We laughed. We're driving home talking back and forth with David and realized he was fine. So we kept going went by the house and went to a friend's holiday party. Stacey Simms 51:35 We're terrible parents. No, we're not. I don't think we're gonna terrible parents either. That's really funny. Yeah, and that we never saw spam a lot. No, I still haven't seen it. Slade 51:48 I mean, I want to I don't know if I could bring Benny Stacey Simms 51:55 All right, um, I promise we won't go year by year, day by day through the 10 years. But just a couple of quick things about the Look at me. Like, are you sure? Slade 52:06 I don't have a good enough memory to do that, please. Stacey Simms 52:10 Benny, God has insulin pump. We talked about that with Dr. V. Right from the beginning. And he got his pump. We went to our educator to Lynette Right. And, and we said, I remember saying give me the one that's easiest for me to use, and will be the best for him. Because I was really scared of how complicated it was gonna be. And we wound up with the atom is 2020, which is what they had back then. And I showed it to Benny, and he threw it across the room. Got Slade 52:40 your hand and chucked it. Stacey Simms 52:44 Maybe this won't work out so well. But he was two and a half. You know, we kind of explained to him what the deal was. And you know, this will be a big shot every three days. But not all the shots in between that by this point. He didn't care. You could give him a shot. Slade 52:55 He would just stick his arm up like shot, he raised his arm you give me I put his arm down. He Stacey Simms 52:59 didn't care at all. At that point. He was so so good. And so used to it. But that night when he had the pump, because we had the sailing trial for a couple of days, he said, I said do you want it? I didn't know he was gonna sleep in. So I kind of said, Do you want me to take it off? And he said no mine. And that was it. He loved it. He's just he wouldn't give it up after that. So that was really good. And we had a little trouble with the very first inset we ever did. We had a capillary, there's a lot of blood member and then we weren't sure it was going to work. And we like geniuses, we decided we were going to go away to start the pump. So we went to my parents house where this was in the summer. So you I went to my parents house for a week, because when you start an insulin pump, and they probably still do this now you have to check every three hours around the clock for the first couple days to get the level, you know, close to right. I'll go with, I'll stay with my mom. My parents spent the summers in New York at that point. I'll spend the summers spend the week in New York. And then my mom can spot me with the kids. It'll be great. I'll sleep when I sleep. And you had a golf tournament with Bill in Vermont, in Vermont. And I said, Oh go I can do this. Go ahead. And you know, I'm fine. I'll be with my parents. So I remember thinking when we first had that bad inset, this isn't I'm never gonna get on a plane. This is not working. And I remember we changed it and he was, you know, we've checked in right before we got in the car to go to the airport. And luckily it was fine. So I was much calmer. We were crazy to do this Slade 54:20 as well. And I remember I was in Vermont and I don't know if I think I was supposed to pack up the diabetes supplies. Stacey Simms 54:29 I don't know. That guy was yes, you packed all the diabetes supplies and I for the record. Slade is fastidious, he is an excellent Packer. Usually what happens is I put out clothing and then you pack it. Yeah, I mean, he's really, I would trust him more than myself in terms of remembering things. So I'll give you that much credit. Yeah, well, you blew this one. Oh, I forgot to add Slade 54:51 the cartridges that you refill and then put back in the pump. And I'm in Vermont and you we're scrambling, we're on the phone, you're scrambling trying to figure out what to do. And Bill had a good friend whose son had type one. And he was on a pump. We had no idea if it was the same. But like, he calls them at like eight o'clock at night, we go to his house, he gives us a couple of cartridges. I mean, it was really, and we were ready to drive back to Manhattan, right? Or back to New York, to bring it to you. And you guys had figured out another way to Yeah, Stacey Simms 55:27 but it was really funny. Because again, before Facebook, yeah, I probably could have put out a message and said, Does anybody have this within 30 miles and somebody would have helped me out. So what happened was, we went to change the cartridge, and I'm all proud of myself, because I've got it all laid out, and I'm calm. And so we had a good start to the pump. We really, we didn't need a lot of adjusting for whatever reason the dosing worked out pretty easily pretty quickly. So when I went to change the cartridge, I was feeling maybe overconfident. So I had everything else spread out everything right. And I realized where the cartridges were the cartridges. So I called our endocrinology office, and I called our educator and the endocrinologist called back first and said, You need a luer lock needle, and what the heck and you can't get it at a pharmacy. So my dad is gone. I'm going to the hospital. And he goes to get the luer lock needle so he can say you can screw it on to the cartridge and I had insulin I had an insulin vial. So then Lynette our educator calls me back, she says, We're gonna MacGyver this thing. And she teaches me over the phone, how to, you know, open up the cartridge had to make sure that you have enough space in it and and then we just injected the insulin and it was a regular needle. So she was really helpful, and she was so happy to do it. She was fantastic. I also had called the Animus, and they couldn't do anything that night. But the next morning, they came to my mom's house in rural Westchester County, which if you're not familiar with Westchester County, there's like old she is less than I said rural Westchester County it is what is it? It's not like there are farms there. I mean, they're like Ralph, Lauren owns a farm. But what I mean is they're tiny roads, they're not well marked. I can't say that. It's Slade 57:11 like any other street it has. Your house has a number in his street name, I find it to be very confused. Like it was unmarked land and her whole western neighbor fought Stacey Simms 57:20 with machetes to get to my mother's. I was impressed that they came over the next morning, and they gave me different cartridges, different sam

Description: How do we adapt, collaborate and stay resilient in a fast paced and constantly changing environment?  The answer, we cultivate and embrace the feminine qualities of leadership and empower multiple leaders to guide.  In this interview with Coco Brown, CEO of Athena Alliance we talk about the importance of cultivating leadership qualities that are often associated with feminine energy and relate to increased collaboration, empathy, communication, and nurturing. You will learn how to prioritize and create a foundation of these important leadership qualities from the top down so that everyone feels empowered to lead together.  Lastly, you will hear why having more women at the helm will support a more sustainable and equitable workplace and world.  Episode Links: Coco on LinkedIn Athena Alliance  Podcast Interview- What leadership skills are needed to create a healthy organizational culture with Carley and Coco.  Learning & Conscious Leadership Development  SHINE Links: Thank you for listening. Want to build a high trust, innovative, and inclusive culture at work? Sign up for our newsletter and get the free handout and be alerted to more inspiring Shine episodes  Building Trust Free Gift Carley Links: Carley LinkedIn Consultation Call with Carley Book Carley for Speaking  Carley's Book  Executive Coaching with Carley  Well Being Resources: Inner Game Meditations  Inner Game Leadership Assessment Social:  LinkedIn IG  Website  Shine Podcast Page    IMPERFECT SHOWNOTES: Carley Hauck  0:11   Hi, my name is Carley Hauck and I am host of the shine podcast. This podcast has been flickering strong since May 2019. I began the podcast due to all the research I was conducting. In interviews with organizational leaders, lead scientists, academic researchers and spiritual teachers for my new book shine, ignite your inner game to lead consciously at work in the world. I wrote my book to inspire a new paradigm of conscious leadership and business that was in service of higher purpose to help humans flourish, and regenerate our planet. The podcast focuses on the science and application of conscious inclusive leadership, the recipe for high performing teams and awareness practices that you can cultivate to be the kind of leader our world needs now. I will be facilitating two to three episodes a month. And before I tell you about the theme of our season, please go over to Apple podcasts, hit the subscribe button on shine or go to your favorite podcast platform carrier. That way you don't miss one episode. Thank you. This season is going to be focused on what leadership skills are most needed to create a healthy organizational culture. Leadership and manager effectiveness has been deemed the number one priority for HR in 2023. And every person listening whether you have a formal leadership title or not, you are a leader. We all have the responsibility to lead around something that we care about whether it's at home, with our family, in our communities, and or in the workplace. And on to the podcast. Hi, Shine podcast listeners, I am delighted to be with my friend Coco brown. This is going to be an incredible conversation. Hi, Coco. Hi. So great to have you here. Thanks for being with me. Coco Brown  2:33   I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me here. Carley Hauck  2:36   You're so welcome. Well, I know a lot about you. But for our listeners, tell me a little bit about what you're feeling excited about. And perhaps even just sharing some of the roles that you wear from, you know, daughter to mother to CEO any identity identities that you want to share? Coco Brown  3:00   No, okay. Yeah, I, let's see my identity start with mother. I think within that identity, my biggest complaint from my kids about me is that I inhabit a seven year old mind maybe at the wrong times. I I'm playful and fun. And I like to I like to be young. And I'm trying to I think I'm trying to hold my kids back in that in that younger age. They're now in there. They're 22 and, and almost 19 So you know, my kids are growing older than me, I guess is what I'm saying. So, but they're my obsession, and I'm old by life and I'm a neighbor and Family is very important to me. Communities important to me. My my parents are are 3000 miles away from me. So as a woman in her early 50s I our mid 50s, mid mid early 50s. Now I worry about aging parents and I worry about kids launching into this crazy world. So those are that's I guess me personally, I I'm a potter. Not a great one, but a decent one. So I make pottery I am obsessed with pickleball although I've only played it a few times, and I play the beach volleyball as often as I can. And then on the work side of me. I am a fourth time entrepreneur. I have in one of those cases the very first one when I was in my early 20s. I created a product I couldn't take anywhere other than to sell it to another company. So and in the process. I talked to one on one venture capital firm, which is never advised you're supposed to talk to a lot of them and then As I became as Satya Nadella says a re founder, I became the second owner or sorry, the third owner of a company that needed to be pulled the Phoenix pulled from the ashes as it crashed in the.com bust and became really a shell of its former self. And I became the turnaround leader of that company and then ran it for about 10 years and grew it to a size where it could be sold. It was eventually sold to IBM. And my third entrepreneurial endeavor was really around, building a consulting practice and working with CEOs to build advisory boards for them and lead their annual and quarterly strategy planning sessions and help them build their teams cohesiveness. That was a lot of fun for a little while. And then I started Athena Alliance, and that is my, my passion. My kids are my obsession and my Athena's the passion project. I am growing Athena, which is an ecosystem of community content and coaching for executive women. Carley Hauck  6:07   Mm hmm. Amazing. Well, I didn't know about the Potter or the pickleball fan. But yes, I did know about the four time entrepreneur and I'm just amazed at your energy, Coco. And so do you want to share a little bit more about why you launched Athena? And why that is so important right now? Coco Brown  6:35   Yeah, I, you know, Athena has many mothers in a lot of ways. Athena has started in 2005, which is almost 20 years ago. Because I was finding myself in more and more high stakes environments as the President CEO of of Taos, I was walking into rooms where people had chief titles, and they were our customers. And I would run into women. Our customer was the CIO. So on the tech side, and I'd run into women, and they'd say, I'm the only one, you know, I'm the only CIO in the valley and, and it started, I started a dinner group to get us together, because there were more than just one. And I happen to keep running into the others. And there were about eight of us at the time. And so and I know there were more than eight, but eight is what I started with, and, and that grew and grew and grew and 10 years into it 2015, I had 80 Some women and by sorry, by 2012, I had 80 Some women, and by 2015, it was 157 women. And in 2012, I stepped down from running Taos, and it had been 10 years. And I stayed on the board two years. But I had a lot that I was trying to figure out. And these women who had been my, my, I don't know, what would you call it, that there was just like this nice place to go every two months where we'd have dinner and cocktails together. And we didn't talk about you know, woe is me, it's hard to be a woman or you know, we talked about our data center strategies and business continuity planning and network, you know, redesigns and that sort of thing. But it was this nice, easy place to be having those work discussions and, and that group of women said to me, when I when I was leaving everything behind, after so many years of being in the tech world, they said Don't leave us behind. And the many mothers became, you know, really evident. In the early days back in 2005, I think it was sunny as a day who suggested that I even start the dinner in the first place. And then Thomas tam Oliver, who said, I used to have these back in, in the 90s. And these dinners I called the no name group and you know, so I got inspiration from others. And in 2012, when I was walking away from the tech world for what I didn't, you know, I didn't know how long I was walking away from it. Gina Ray Haig said, don't stop the dinners, I'll pay for the first one. And then Cindy Reese said, I'll pay for the second one. And, you know, we we just kept going and, and then I got this mandate, you know, almost a flurry of emails. And after a group of us met with Senator Mark Warner, who was out from Virginia doing a hearts and minds tour, and he, you know, he said, what's on your mind and somebody said boardroom and I got a flurry of email the next day emails the next day saying that's it, Coco. You heard what was being said in that room. You know, we've got to get women on boards and you've got the ecosystem go solve this problem. And so it sort of started with me solving a problem. And starting it as a nonprofit and getting you know, we've got over 450 women to boards and then figuring out a commercial company that became even bigger than that. Carley Hauck  9:49   Amazing. Well, I love hearing that story. And I know that we're gonna we're gonna go more in depth in into why it's important to have women on boards and and women in leadership, but I want to move into how you're leading yourself. And also did just speak more into conscious leadership because I know we're both really passionate about that topic. So as I've gotten to know you, you seem to be juggling so many things. And what I always notice every time we talk is that you feel at least from the outside, calm, grounded, you may not feel like that on the inside, but you present that way. And I think there's this this quality of I don't, I don't know how you do it. But it's like, I never hear you frazzled. Even if you haven't eaten anything all day, which sometimes I've talked to you like, Yeah, I haven't eaten anything all day. I was just thinking Unknown Speaker  10:48   that I actually haven't eaten today, and I'm really hungry. Carley Hauck  10:51   Oh, no, oh, no. Okay, well, but I want you to eat. worry, don't worry. But I guess what I'm wondering is, I know that there are certain things that you're doing and being that are actually really supporting you to thrive in the midst of all the things that you're juggling. And so what are some of those things that really support you? And what is it look like on a daily practice? Coco Brown  11:23   I mean, one of the things I think about all the time, and I kind of think my kids for this, when my kids were born, I immediately started thinking about when they would leave the house, you know, like, I'm gonna lose them, you know, and this is like, 22 years ago, and I just was always so aware of, of the moment like feeling like I was going to, you're going to look back on these this time, Koko, you're going to, you know, and just always wanting to make sure that I didn't miss a moment and, and that, I'm really glad that that was my, that that happened to me, because it puts you in a frame of mind whenever possible, sometimes it's not possible to be your best self. But whenever possible, it puts you in a frame of mind to say, how can you make the most of this rather than why is this crappy? And, you know, so you just like, well, she wants to play Barbies again, and then you go, okay, how can I make this fun for me, and you just sort of try to find the ways to make everything meaningful, and to find the meaning and the things that are happening and to make the most of it, and to not focus so much on the complaint, but rather focus on the opportunity. And, and I think I, I went through a phase where I was really not happy for a long time of not at my end home, I you know, loved that part of it. But we spend more time at work than we do at home and I I was not enjoying for a long time, my sense of purpose in work, and I didn't feel I had a sense of purpose. And in work the, the main objective of the company was to enrich the shareholders, of which there were three, myself and two others. And in IT tech, and it was before the days of, you know, purpose and culture and, and so you could have big personalities that were difficult to deal with. And that was more than accepted. It was praised in lots of ways and, and, you know, you didn't have to have any reason for, for what you were doing on the planet. And, and I like this new place that we are as, you know, we can choose as individuals, not everybody works at a place where they feel valued, or feel that there's purpose or meaning or impact, but I do and I choose to and the people that work around me choose to and I think most of us can choose to I think we often feel stuck, you know, when I'm in my day to day when I'm back to back of meetings, and I've got too much going on and I'm feeling exhausted and everything's blowing up and it's nothing's going right. And I can't get people to do what they're supposed to don't do, even though I've said it seven different ways and all the things that we deal with. Then, you know, I kind of I tried to remind myself that I choose to be here and that I can also only focus on what I can influence and what I can control. We control very, very little. We influence a lot more and so you know, how do you convey influence and so I you know, it's kind of a long winded I don't know how to fully answer this question. Well, other than to say, Carley Hauck  14:56   what I actually here is and this is this is One of the nine leadership competencies that I have really researched as part of what actually creates a conscious, inclusive leader. But one of that one of those competencies is having a growth mindset. And I heard you say it, you know, very explicitly, how can I choose to make this, you know, joyful? Or how can I choose to have fun here? Or what, you know, instead of how is this happening? Or why is this happening to me? How is this happening for me? And how do I want to respond? Coco Brown  15:34   Yeah, yeah, yes. And I think that's, that's extremely important in in every surgery, Carley Hauck  15:41   for sure. Wonderful. Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And so that is a daily practice having that mantra, we could say, or that narrative that allows you to bring your best to every moment, even when it's a difficult moment. Unknown Speaker  15:58   Yeah, absolutely. Carley Hauck  16:01   Thank you. I wanted to talk to you about a conscious leader that you've had in your life. Who was that person? Why would you call them a conscious leader? Like how did they empower you or support you or inspire you? How many more? Coco Brown  16:22   You know, I in my own career, I don't, I feel like the the person I've witnessed as the most conscious leader is, is someone I didn't actually work for or work directly with. So no, maybe that's Carley Hauck  16:40   a little rose colored glasses. And that's fine. Coco Brown  16:44   Yeah, so So a woman I'm a big fan of named Yvonne Watson, our associates. So just a quick on her, she, you know, early career at Accenture, or then ended up in a very, very important strategy role at VMware, and then ended up the CIO of New Relic. And then she ended up the CEO of Airware, and then CEO of puppet and she was on my board for a short time when I was for a nonprofit, prior to Athena. So we did work together in that sense. She's one of the mothers of Athena, you know, a lot of early, early insights came from her, the thing I would say, that I admire about her that I see in lots of different I see her and in many different situations, we ended up speaking on stages near each other, or at the same events, or, you know, so she's on a number of prominent boards at this point, she is always measured, and there's a lot of people who are measured. Because they're calculating, you know, the, the measurement is around, like, the calculation for how they can get what they're looking for. And her measurement is much more about, it seems to me, you know, very practiced and very skilled. So it's something she's developed over a lifetime, but it feels to me like it's the kind of thing where she's being thoughtful. She's just always being thoughtful, you know, what are you saying, Why are you saying it? What can come from it? How can I make it work for everyone? You know, you almost see, it's like, you can't, she's like a hummingbird with the hummingbird wings there. It's moving so fast, you can't see it, or move. But the things that come out of her mouth, make it clear that she's being measured, that she's thoughtful, I get a lot of inspiration from her. Because when I watch her, and I listen to her, and the stories she tells or the way she plays things back to people, it's always it's always plus one, it's always additive. You know, it's always contributing, it's never taking away. Carley Hauck  18:56   I love that. So measured, thoughtful, contributing, not taking away. You also said that she's always thinking about, perhaps why she's saying it. Versus just talking to talk. You know, there's, there's a way that she's more deliberate and intentional. You give me an example of an unconscious leader, and what qualities did they showcase? How did that impact you or other people? Even if this is someone that you maybe didn't know, closely? Coco Brown  19:34   Well, I mean, I think I think I would be arrogant to say that it isn't myself. You know, I think we're all unconscious leaders at some point. You know, we're like, Ah, why did I say that? Or? I know I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to say it anyway. It's almost like it just comes out and you just refuse to stop yourself. And you know, and you know, you can do better and you should do better. And you know, you know, you, instead of sending that email, you should pick up that phone. And instead of, you know, sending the subtle reprimand, you should once again say the thing that will be better received. And, and so I think the unconsciousness is when we're, when we act out of exhaustion, and when we act out of our own fear, you know, or our sense of like, Ah, I don't have time for this, or, you know, those sorts of feelings that we we have Carley Hauck  20:37   were triggered, right? Yeah, I think what you're speaking to, to some extent, is we're being triggered. Yeah, acting from that place, it's reactive versus responsive. Coco Brown  20:47   And it's extremely hard to be constantly in a state of, and this is why I admire, you know, Yvonne, it's like, I feel like she's, and I know, she also has hers where she, you know, she's not her best self, I'm sure. Of course, and I see so much more of the best self all the time and the thoughtful self. And, and I think that's what we strive for is like just giving ourselves a breath, not saying the thing that we want to say, because we know that even if it has the right effect, in the moment, it has the right the wrong longer term effect, just stopping ourselves from, from the bad behaviors that are so instinctual that our own self protection or fastest way to a response we want, even though it's not the best way to the response that you want, things like that. Carley Hauck  21:42   Thank you for that. I wanted to speak to some of the unconscious qualities that we all have, I agree, like, and then there are some that are even more harmful than others. And so I was actually having an interview with a colleague and friend of mine who wrote this book managing up. And we were speaking a bit about some of the research that has come out from basically reporting to a unconscious leader. And there has been found to be five to six years of time to recover emotionally, psychologically, from that trauma. And when I think about what's been happening in the world, and what will continue to happen, I feel concerned that our workplaces are not trauma informed. When we think about what's happening in Israel and Palestine, when we think about all the people that have died in the Ukraine, when we think about the climate related traumas that will happen as we have more fires and water shortages, and people are displaced from their homes, I'm bringing these two together when we think about unconscious leaders and trauma, because in my experience, a lot of unconscious leaders are acting from trauma, they're not getting the resources that they need. Or they're not even really aware that they have this deeper trauma to to work on. And so I wanted to get your opinion on one, how do we really inform our workplaces around trauma, so that HR professional so that the C suite is availing people of resources to get the healing to get the help? But also, what does it look like to remove a people leader who is creating so much trauma to everyone else in the organization, we remove them from being a leader of people to potentially working in some other skill set that is not influencing and managing so many people? So there's kind of two questions in there. What do you think about Coco Brown  24:11   I think on the, on the, on the sort of global traumas, you know, the, the, the things that we look at and affect us at a societal level, the job of the employer, the job of the leaders, is to understand how that is affecting the workforce and to be thoughtful about response. You know, I'm thinking about things like, you know, George, George Floyd and how much good, good response came out of that, but then also feels performative if it's not genuine and long lasting. And so I think there's an obligation in leadership to be be very thoughtful about what kinds of societal level impact the company can take on because at the same at the same time the company is running a business. So, you know, at the societal impact, where you're talking about an entire race of people that are everywhere around you, it does impact every single business at a societal impact where we're talking about a war in, in Europe, the Ukraine, it, it's societally traumatic and, and devastating at a business level. The question is, is this impacting our, our business? Our employees? You know, do we have Ukrainian employees who have, who are over there or have relatives or, you know, sort of being sensitive to the level of impact to the business and how that and what people need to be feel supportive? Supported. But one thing i i take a little bit of issue with any sort of sentiment that, that that implies that businesses have to take it all on? Because I don't think that that's fair, I think that a business is a business and at the end of the day, it has to make money or nobody gets paid, right. And so, it, it does need to be able to function, move on appropriately respond, and then be able to move on. And I think that is a tricky thing for us to figure out together. And I think we're really early days and in figuring that out. But but I think on the second layer question where you're where it's immediate, where the trauma that's being caused is, because of the behaviors of people at work, that trauma, you know, that's within the four walls of the business. And that's within the business's control. It's not just even influence, it's like, you've got a, you've got a leader here who's causing horrific experiences for the people around them. And they walk home depressed, and they walk home angry, and they want, you know, like, Whatever, whatever that that is happening, they feel depleted, they feel at least, then I do think that the business has an obligation to address that and figure that out. Like, it's not enough. sponsibility. Yeah, it's not enough to say that, well, that leader produces, their team is producing, they're getting the results, right, like, well, at what cost? Are they getting results? And are those results sustainable? And on a basic human level? Why do you want that, like, there's other people who can perform and get results that aren't also destroying everything in their path. Carley Hauck  27:49   And we know that there are a lot of leaders that are left in those people positions, you know, even very high up in the C suite that are not being held accountable. And again, you know, in my experience working with lots of leaders and studying this, they are leading from trauma that they're not actually getting the help for, and people are not, again, feeling empowered enough to really know how to navigate that. And so that's, that's where my interest in having HR leaders and whatnot, really being more informed on trauma, like what are the signs, how do we bring awareness to it? How do we hold it accountable? How do we help people get the healing that they need so that it isn't creating this toxic work environment for so many. And as you said, we spend the majority of our time at work. And research also shows that the two people that have the biggest influence on our psychological and emotional health is our boss and our partner at home. Coco Brown  28:54   Yes, so. Absolutely. Yeah, I think I do think that there's there are there are other things that also you know, sometimes it's not just it's not just the overt sort of bullying or bat, you know, sort of mean, mean behavior boss, it can be really deflating and super, I guess, deflating it to to work. Yeah, with an ineffective boss too. And I think that's the that's also you know, people want to be amazing, we all want to be amazing. We all want to do great stuff. We all want to be you know, contributing ways that make us feel like you know, like the kid who walked home with that little art project and you know, gives it to mom or dad for Valentine's Day like those the you want to feel amazing and that you're doing amazing things and that people love it and and so there's, you know, many ways I think leadership needs to be looked at and, and not just from the perspective of one person's point of view, but the entire or ecosystem around that leader is that leader effective is that leader, able to get great results out of a team that go beyond the things they're supposed to do to, you know, sort of the miracle moments that they can make. And that's about how, how leaders inspire others to take charge of themselves and self managing. Yeah, I, my, my chief of staff, I absolutely love her. She took me very seriously when I told her and she's, she's fast moving in our in our company, she's doing great. And when she first started working for me, I said, my two rules, time kills all deals, and it's better to ask forgiveness than permission. She went with it, right? And that was super like, she was like, yes. Awesome. And not everybody likes that. Right? But she was like, self empowered, and very confident and, you know, used to being able to figure things out so that those statements were really fabulous for her. They're fabulous for her and me in our dynamic, you know, though that same statement to somebody else might be exactly the wrong way to manage them and may not be the right management relationship. So I think no, no, it's a complex one here. Carley Hauck  31:22   Well, in your you know, I think the other piece around leadership is, especially in the midst of COVID. I believe that we are really reassessing what are the leadership competencies that we need now? What are the responsibilities we're putting on leaders? Is it too much? Are people even equipped to take on the responsibility of leadership? Just because they can be promoted doesn't mean that they should. And so I know, one of the things that you and I feel really passionate about is, how do we lead together? Because I do believe there is way too much responsibility on one leaders shoulders, and how are we empowering others to help us lead? What do you think about that leading together? How do you? How do we do? Yeah, Coco Brown  32:07   I think, Well, I think there's, I think there's a lot of that we're actually about to do a salon on we're about to do a salon on five generations, we're in the workforce, and we've got a silent generation, baby boomer, Gen X, or millennial, and Z. And we're talking about how do we work together. And I think this is kind of at that. The heart of that, like, I believe that the hero CEO CEO is no longer relevant either, if you're a leader is not relevant, like where, you know, you're bringing a lifetime of career wisdom and guidance. And so you know, the formula in your playbook that you've used over and over again, is the one you're going to apply again here. And it's that, you know, you've you've refined this playbook and so you come in, and this is what you do. Like, that's just not the right way to operate in today's world, I because too, there's too many complexities to the way people learn the way people communicate the way people take in information, you know, everything's so different now that you have to be able to collaborate as a leader and figure out who am I dealing with it because one size does not fit all. And, and therefore, your playbook also does not fit all, because to me, every single thing comes down to a people that I started and people I'm always in people, people is everything to me, I think it's you know, all about how you organize, organize and structure people is kind of the key to, to the product side of things and, and everything else. So So I think, you know, on that front, too, I've had my end Miss kind of reflects back to some of the other things we're talking about. I, I had a moment in time, a day, a day where my my husband asked me, he said, and you were really frustrated with, you know, whoever you were talking to, on on the phone and and, and in my own mind, I couldn't pinpoint the moment. So I was like, Oh my gosh, I've been frustrated all day. And you know, that was a long meeting. And I was like, Well, who was I talking to? He's like, I don't know. And it was, you know, maybe around 11 I couldn't quite figure out and then later that the next day, maybe it was my daughter said, Oh mom, you are really laying in on so and so you know on my team and I was like I did. I was like you're right. I did I really was. And so I went to my board. And I said hey, I think I need a CEO review and what's wrong with being and and they said, We don't want to be I don't want to be an asshole and I don't I don't want to be the frustrated leader who's you know, like I told you guys this before and so there's a problem right? There's the when when you feel like you're repeating yourself, you're like I I've said this before we've we've gone over this before, you know why can't I get through and you know, and no, we're not going to do that. And you know, when when you find yourself in this situation where you're like, why don't they understand? Or why can't they get it? Or why you know, which is, I think a lot of like a unidirectional leadership view. And so my point is, is that no matter where you sit in the organization, I sit at the top, there's always something around me that I can draw from and say, Okay, we're not, we're not doing this right together. And I'm a piece of that. How do I make this Carley Hauck  35:26   work? Well, right, what is the impact of me saying this having on this group, because for some reason, there isn't shared understanding or shared agreement on next steps? That's kind of what I'm hearing, right? Coco Brown  35:40   Yeah. And sometimes it's just, you know, we're all looking at an elephant and firmly believing that we're all talking about the foot right now and somebody else's when we're not talking about something else, and perhaps it's the hey, we're talking about the fact that the, you know, elephant is not ready. You know, we don't have not ready to go back in the wild, it's that we often think that things are more obvious than they are, and that they are easier to, to understand and come together and align on. And these things should be simple and formulaic. And it's just, it's complicated. Carley Hauck  36:15   So what would be the first step that C suite leaders and, you know, Chief People officers should be thinking about as far as strategy and creating a different infrastructure to empower people, leaders to lead together being met, you've worked in so many different functions within the organization? Yeah, would you say? What's the first step that they might want to start to think about and put in place? Coco Brown  36:47   I think that from, if it hasn't happened from the beginning, it should happen now. Which is, things trickle down from the top. And I think it's very important that the CEO and her team, and then the team below that, and then the team below that, and the team below that, they they're very articulate about what it means to funk to be high functioning together, and what kinds of things they accept, and don't accept and believe together, because collectively, we will all say the right things like, of course, you shouldn't do this, and you shouldn't do that. And if leadership really buys in at the top, then it can go to the next layer, and the next layer and a n, the people function can be the facilitators of that, you know, I think, when you have a leadership team at the top that is really aligned and clear on what it how it will and will behave and what it calls out and how it calls it out, and how it works together to shape and solve things, then they take that back to their team who can take it back to their team and the HR team that is often embedded in different parts of the organization can can reinforce that and, and, and help you the facilitators until they get there and things are muscle memory, I think I think I've always been my my greatest passion in the HR field has, and it's where I started was on the people management side of things on training, we would take our best engineers and make the managers and then they be horrible managers. And I would train them I'd sit with them while they did reviews and meetings and give them feedback and help them figure it out. And that's what I did in my in my 20s. And it was I had an instinct for it. I had a psychology degree, I think psychology is a really important feature of business that maybe we need more rigorous discipline around having psychic ability and understanding Carley Hauck  39:02   how to actually relate and communicate and collaborate. Right. Those are those are people skills, those are power skills. And that's again, why I was speaking to to the trauma piece because most people that are going through deeper training as I did, because I was trained as a therapist first before I went into coaching and l&d and organizational development is I worked with deeply traumatized populations for a long time. And that informs the foundation of everything else that I do. I agree with you. I think some deeper training is needed in the in the people function. And as we are coming more to a close, I wanted to just leave you with another question as we're thinking about, really this new paradigm, the opportunity the response It's ability to be conscious companies to have more conscious leadership competencies that we're training for that we're encouraging that we're holding you accountable? Where is the role of the woman in this, like these more maybe feminine qualities we can call them? Yeah. Coco Brown  40:23   Well, I think the feminine feminine qualities and business are gaining power, which is important, like you see, chief customer officer that didn't that role didn't even exist 10 years ago. And and it's a very important and powerful role within the business and chief marketing officers and the Human Resources Officer, Chief People officers moving out from under the CFO and having you know, they are the hero role of the last four year at Carley Hauck  40:53   the table. Yeah, they're, they're at the table. Coco Brown  40:55   It's their table, as someone said, it, you know, and so you see the roles that women have traditionally had more of a presence in the marketing, customer communications people, they are taking more and more leadership roles. And those roles are taking more and more power in the business, which, at an equal level, it's not to say that, like, the technology roles and whatnot are diminishing, it's just that the roles that have been thought of as the softer skill roles, the the people oriented roles are, are, are being valued at a different level than than they ever have been in the past. And that's, that's great. And, and that's the feminine coming into power in the workforce, whether it's a man or a woman running that role. And I think kind of going along with the no hero, CEO, individual CEOs are expected to take on the feminine and they're expected to be vulnerable and collaborative and communicative. And, you know, they're, they're expected to have these feminine qualities and in addition to the risk taking and the fight for Carley Hauck  42:08   the empathy, right, yeah, consider male qualities. Coco Brown  42:12   So you see that in a Satya Nadella versus a guy who came before him Scott Ballmer, super soft as an example. Carley Hauck  42:23   And it would make sense that having more women in board seats would also support more of that feminine coming through, and and making sure that the leaders that are put in those seats, are exemplifying more of these conscious leadership qualities, wouldn't you think? Coco Brown  42:44   Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, I just as we value family structures that have multiple generations and genders and skill sets, we would never take that and say, you know, what the best structure is for just one gender to, you know, raise this child. With one point of view like that, it doesn't make any more sense in sort of a neighborhood family societal structure than it does in a business structure. It just, it just doesn't and, and then beyond that, women are just as capable as men and in every domain, and so there's no reason that we should be locked out. And and then we also come from perspective, if half of the population is female, that's half of your customer base to so in some form or fashion. And so, you know, you need to understand them. And that's a great reason to have them around the table. Carley Hauck  43:42   Mm hmm. Well, Coco, thank you so much for your thought leadership on all of these important and juicy topics. I also wanted to invite you to leave anything with our listeners, or is there is there a topic that we didn't cover that you'd like to share on right now? Coco Brown  44:02   Um, well, I, you know, we do a lot of work in this space. And one thing we've noticed, for sure is, women are not done yet. And I'm sure that's true about men too. But we spend a lot of time with women and women who have 2030, maybe even 40 year careers behind them, and they're looking at the next 1020 30 years and figuring out how they're going to build portfolios of impact. And I highly encourage, you know, anyone listening to check out Athena and look at our courses that we do unleash your impact and, and talk to us about, about how we support careers and we also support people leaders to bring cohorts to Athena and, and help them elevate their leadership, both male and female in this case, and so there's lots of we, we've we spend a lot of time on it. In the realm of elevating, supporting, advancing leadership and be happy to have your half the listeners, check us out. Carley Hauck  45:13   Definitely, yes, I wholeheartedly recommend Athena as a wonderful resource and network and community. One question that I was feeling curious about because I know that there are a lot of senior executives within Athena that are advising and or looking to get on boards. What advice would you give to a woman leader in her 30s or 40s, that wants to step into advising other companies? How early should she start? And what are the steps that she can take? Coco Brown  45:55   She should start the moment she starts her career in thinking about how far she can go and opening the aperture. Like the best way to create an incredible career that has lots of doors opening and paths that you can follow and opportunities ahead of when you even thought they would happen is by being curious. And by having a utility player mindset, you know, being very interested in the business, not just your function, your tower. And so the earlier you start that the bigger your career will become and and advisory work is a great way to, you know, to get into more of an understanding across a business. So I would say specifically, learn about the boardroom, learn about what happens there. As you find yourself if you start to find yourself in like, you know, director level senior director level, that's the time when you have to start looking left and right in the organization, you have to build strategic perspective, you have to have the utility player mindset, you have to start thinking about your career advancement, not in terms of just what's my next promotion, what's my next title? But how do I look left and right in my in the business and make myself relevant outside of my direct in impact, sort of the story I told earlier about how I got them to keep the San Francisco office open, right, that led to me becoming the VP of professional services at 20 years old, like it's, it's looking across the business is, is what's going to allow you to keep climbing and that's the same thing. And advisory work is if you're being asked to come in and advise a company because of a skill set you have, you know, use that opportunity to to look across the business and learn about it. Yeah, I can't say enough about getting started early and being curious. Carley Hauck  48:00   And then if that person did want to move into advising, let's say a startup, then how would they do that? Would they reach out to that startup? What What would you advise? Coco Brown  48:10   Build your network is my advice. I mean, you you know, join a community like Athena where you can get to know entrepreneurs and get to know investors and get to know the places you know, the people who can introduce you to founders and investors who would be looking for people who could provide guidance and advice. And as I was talking, I was on a panel two weeks ago with a with a guy who awesome guy who got his big big break and basically, board work and investing work and in in and advising work, because he was the buyer of a product zoom, which we all use. And he ended up on the advisory board of that company in the very early days advising the see. And you know, what, a big break, right? So you're, maybe you're in a buying position and in the roles that you're in and the companies that are coming and pitching their products to you. You can say you can say, Look, this product is not ready. It's not primetime for my company, but I want to advise you, I want to help you. I like what you're doing here. You know, I would, I would say, that's one way of networking into into that opportunity. But putting yourself in the ecosystem requires relationship building, Carley Hauck  49:38   and getting curious and learning. I hear that. Wonderful. Well, Coco, thank you so much for your time. We will leave show notes in order for people to find you on LinkedIn to look into Athena. And I just really appreciate your leadership and your contribution. Thank you so much. Unknown Speaker  49:59   Thank You. Carley Hauck  50:02   Wow, what a fabulous conversation. Some of the questions that Coco and I were trying to answer in this interview were, how do we lead together? What is the appropriate response in our complex world and workplace? How do we equip our leaders and ourselves with the skills and competencies to be effective to thrive, and to create high trust inclusive organizations that people want to stay in. If you want to connect more with cocoa or learn more about it, you know alliances, the links are in the show notes. And before we part, here are some high level takeaways that you can implement today. manage yourself, it is a complex time. And the more that we can cultivate the skills to increase our self awareness, self management, humility, and empathy, we will be the leaders that our world needs. Now, this is going to support more effective communication, collaboration, and resolution in the midst of conflict. And these typically are the biggest three people problems that I have seen. I call them the three C's manage down laterally and up with remote distributed workforce, we need to begin to have conversations that invite people to share the responsibility together. When decisions are made unilaterally, it increases a sense of inclusion and trust across the leadership team and the organization. How can we create self organizing teams, and really put in agreements and accountability to support us to lead together this is an area I feel super passionate about, I help senior leadership teams with this all the time. So if you need help, reach out, I am here. And then lastly, invest in learning and leadership development for everyone at the company. This is the best way we can establish more community and connection in these times. It also is going to make sure that everybody has the skills to collaborate, to communicate, and to find healthy resolution during conflict. A fina has resources in this domain. And I have focused my life on creating content courses at Stanford, and even finding metrics to really measure these really important skills. And I have found wonderful results with the leaders and the companies that I have had the privilege to exclusively partner with, we have found huge increases in important leadership competencies, increased retention, internal mobility, psychological safety. And if you want to learn more about some of my experience, Coco and I did a podcast interview earlier on in the season, which I will highlight in the show notes and it talks about what the leadership skills are needed to create a thriving and healthy organizational culture, and how I am your next great leadership hire to solve for this. Many folks are hiring for internal director and above and learning talent and leadership development. And this is the role that I am so excited to accept and to serve. I am interviewing right now. And I would love if you would consider me for any new opportunities that you are looking to fill before end of year. If you want to reach out to me find me on LinkedIn or go to my email, Carley at Carley helped.com. And I would love to set up a meeting with you or be introduced to somebody that you think would be a good fit. And lastly, for HR leadership and talent, as Coco and I talked about, it's really important that people but especially people leaders have the depth of knowledge around people. No, Coco said she studied psychology. So have I and my foundation was as a therapist. And so I worked for two, three years with different populations experiencing trauma. And we all have trauma. We have it individually, collectively and intergenerationally. And it is impacting the workforce. So if you want to have more resources around this topic, please reach out I'd be happy to help and I have wonderful connections in this space I can introduce you to if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends, family or colleagues. You can also give a five star rating to the shine podcast make sure that people find us You and I have some incredible interviews left throughout the season continue to tune in and until we meet again Viva light and shine your light

#GOP: The unknown Speaker Mike Johnson. @ThadMcCotter @theamgreatness DC

New and Unknown Speaker. Who is Mike Johnson? Can He Lead the House GOP? Three Trump Lawyers Plead Guilty. Meadows Cooperates. The Politics of Israel. Maine Massacre. With Linda Feldmann, Washington bureau chief, White House/politics correspondent at Christian Science Monitor. Host of the Monitor Breakfast, Jeff Dufour, Editor-in-chief of The National Journal and author of the Sunday Nightcap Newsletter and Zach Cohen, Congressional Reporter for Bloomberg Government.Today's Bill Press Pod is supported by The United Food and Commercial Workers Union. More information at UFCW.org.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Sporting Life Notebook - Black Heritage Hunt Podcast Episode Summary Uplifting African American voices in the outdoors. 6:52 The origins of "Nature Swagger" book and reception. The need to shift the narrative of African Americans in the outdoors from resilience to empowerment, highlighting the importance of showcasing them as experts in the field.   Outdoor leadership and Black Heritage hunt. 21:05 The importance of recognizing commonalities between outdoor enthusiasts, including the shared history of hunting and fishing. The outdoor brand's use of African American culture, from clothing to logo. Inspiring leaders by building a movement on dreams, empowering others to make a positive impact. Unknown Speaker and Speaker 4 discuss the Black Heritage Hunt, with Unknown Speaker expressing appreciation for the mentor's kindness and lack of competition. Hunting, faith, and personal growth. 38:30 Unlikely hunter experiences outdoor adventure with supportive family member. Hunting trips with friends, identifying habitat and asking questions. Reflections on their father's influence and what they would tell him if he were alive today. Speaker 4 advises letting go and trusting in God during difficult times. Family, legacy, and mentorship. 51:51 The importance of honoring one's calling in life. Meeting Jonathan Wilkins and connecting with him in California. Mentorship and participation in the black heritage community. The importance of taking responsibility for one's own success and committing to it. Emotional experience of connecting with their deceased father & mother through their love for horses, feeling her presence during a speaking engagement and the MOA Festival. Thanks you to our Partners who make this Podcast Possible:  Beretta USA, Benchmade Knife Company, Hunt & Field Magazine, Eukanuba Sporting Dog, Orvis, Minority Outdoor Alliance, and The Original Dogman.

Description: How do we heal and transform society through conscious leadership?    Conscious leadership is a turning towards oneself and the questions of one's life.  A conscious leader asks what lines will I not cross ethically?  What really matters?  What is mine to guard and protect?  What is mine to heal and restore?  How can I be in service in society?   We can only become a conscious leader by developing the qualities on the inside that support conscious action on the outside.   In this podcast interview with my friend Mary Abijaay, you will learn the root cause of unconscious leadership, how to manage yourself in the face of unconscious leaders, how to manage up in the midst of difficulty, and what to pay attention to in yourself and others to determine how to achieve success with your boss at work.   Episode Links: Mary's Book Mary on LinkedIn From Triggered to Triumph- Team Experience with Carley How to Coach a Harmful and Unconscious Leader with Carley  Navigating Triggers Meditation with Carley Polyvagal Theory- How to Befriend Your Nervous System with Deb Dana  HBR Article- We need trauma informed Workplaces SHINE Links: Thank you for listening. Want to build a high trust, innovative, and inclusive culture at work? Sign up for our newsletter and get the free handout and be alerted to more inspiring Shine episodes  Building Trust Free Gift Carley Links: LinkedIn Consultation Call with Carley Book Carley for Speaking Leading from Wholeness Learning & Development Carley's Book Executive Coaching with Carley Well Being Resources: Inner Game Meditations Inner Game Leadership Assessment Social:  LinkedIn IG Website Shine Podcast Page IMPERFECT SHOW NOTES Carley Hauck  0:10   Hi, my name is Carley Hauck and I am host of the shine podcast. This podcast has been flickering strong since May 2019. I began the podcast due to all the research I was conducting in interviews with organizational leaders, lead scientists, academic researchers and spiritual teachers for my new book shine, ignite your inner game to lead consciously at work in the world. I wrote my book to inspire a new paradigm of conscious leadership and business that was in service of higher purpose to help humans flourish, and regenerate our planet. The podcast focuses on the science and application of conscious inclusive leadership, the recipe for high performing teams and awareness practices that you can cultivate to be the kind of leader our world needs now. I will be facilitating two to three episodes a month. And before I tell you about the theme of our season, please go over to Apple podcasts, hit the subscribe button on shine or go to your favorite podcast platform carrier. That way you don't miss one episode. Thank you. This season is going to be focused on what leadership skills are most needed to create a healthy organizational culture. Leadership and manager effectiveness has been deemed the number one priority for HR and 2023. And every person listening whether you have a formal leadership title or not, you are a leader. We all have the responsibility to lead around something that we care about whether it's at home with our family, and our communities and or in the workplace. And on to the podcast. Hello shine podcast listeners. Thank you so much for joining me in this wonderful conversation with my friend Mary Abby, Jay. And Mary. Just a quick intro for folks. I actually found you a couple years ago when I was listening to Sarah holds podcast advice to my younger me, but she just actually finished she finished the podcast I saw her like last post I think it was last week. But I found Sara because she wrote this fabulous book with the same name advice to my younger me and I frankly thought Why didn't I know this in my 30s? Why am I now just discovering this in my 40s Well, she hadn't read it. She hadn't written it yet. And as part of her research, she researched all these incredible women leaders and you were one of the very first interviews that she did and you just really resonated and So I kind of had been holding this idea to reach out and then I did and voila. And I'm so happy. You're connected. And thank you so much for your work. Mary Abbajay  5:10   Well, Carly, that's so sweet. Now I just kind of feel like I just said good night Detroit. Like Thank you tip your waitresses, because that was really, really lovely. Yeah, Sarah is lovely person. And I was so delighted when you reached out to me, so I'm really excited to be here. So thanks for having me. Carley Hauck  5:24   Well, thank you. Could you share a little bit with our listeners about the work that you're doing in the world? And and also anything else you want to share about you as a person? identities? All those pieces? All those hats? We were right. Mary Abbajay  5:41   Oh, my gosh. So well, you know, I'm an introvert. So this is like my worst nightmare to talk about myself. But for you for you, Carly, I will do it. Hello, Shine listeners. My name is Mariana J. I am an organizational development consultant, I have a little boutique firm, called Career stone group. And we like to say that we help people make workplaces that are productive and positive. And we help people to be productive and positive in their workplaces. I'm a Gemini, I live in Washington, DC, I am married with one little furbaby named Valentino, he's a little rescue shitzu, if you've ever heard of such a thing, and I'm the author of a book called Managing Up, how to move up when at work and succeed with any type of boss, and it's all about how you can really take control of your career and be successful. I love what I do. I am a workaholic. Mostly because I love my work. Because I get to do cool things like this all the time. And that really, really feeds my soul, I have this diluted sense that by helping people make their work lives better, I'm doing just a little bit to make the world a better place. So that's, that's kind of under passion about what I do. So that's, that's me. Carley Hauck  6:54   Thank you. I love hearing all those other parts about you. Some of those I knew, because you're pretty transparent in the book. Well, I have to say this book is phenomenal. Like I have a high bar for books, being an author myself. And I just think this is so needed. And so for those of you that have had a boss or have a boss, they'll get this book, there will be links in the show notes, show notes, but I highly recommended. And before I even got to the part, where you share in the book, Why you actually ended up kind of writing this book, I had this intuition, I bet she had a really bad boss. And for all of them. Oh, wow. Yeah. And so that's really where I wanted to go in our in our conversation today. So they're kind of a couple of threads, I wanted to speak about how we manage ourselves first self management, so that we can confidently and powerfully manage up with any kind of boss. And I also wanted to talk a little more deeply about some of the root causes of why people are acting unconsciously, we could call them you know, bad bosses, I often like to use unconscious leaders because sometimes these behaviors, and even the wounding that is causing these behaviors are unconscious. And so instead of healing, they're hurting, and they're harming people in the workplace. I also wanted to bring in a little bit of the research that I have done and the framework on what are the conscious leadership qualities that we can grow, so that we can actually be more conscious leaders, and people don't have to manage us so much. And then lastly, I'd love to ask you some questions about what you can actually be assessing, when you're first having interviews with this potential new hire or new boss, and also what you might be able to do in the first 90 days to 100 days. And then I thought it could be fun if we role played one of the vos personalities and how you might manage yourself and how you might manage them. So we have a meaty discussion here. Unknown Speaker  9:20   I love it. I can't wait. Carley Hauck  9:22   Thank you. Thank you. Well, for folks that have been listening to the shine podcast, you know that I started this podcast because it was part of the research that I was conducting on my book on conscious leadership. And part of the reason that I wrote that book was because I was seeing lots and lots of folks in different industries over 10 years that were possessing certain qualities of consciousness that then supported more high performing teams psychological safety trust, well being and they were the exception, unfortunately. not the rule. So as a way to discern, and really bring in this framework, I had to see a lot of unconscious leadership, personally and professionally. And so, Mary, this brings us back to the reason that you wrote this book. It sounds like you had multiple leaders that and bosses that were really hard to navigate and to manage up. Do you feel like sharing any story from any one of those? Mary Abbajay  10:33   Oh, yeah. I mean, I share a lot of them in the books me I had, you know, and I think throughout, first of all, all the bad bosses I had led me to decide that if they could be a bad boss, I could be my own bad boss. I didn't need someone else being an asshole. I could be an asshole to myself, like, I didn't need that. So I have so many bad bosses is one of the reasons why I went, I became an entrepreneur. I'm like, I can do this. Like, I don't need this above me. So all in all, it was a good thing. You know, I had a boss, I had a boss that was a horrible micromanager, just horrible, horrible, horrible. I had a boss who was a screaming, shouting bully. I had a boss that was just completely incompetent, inadequate. And of all these bosses, I did have one boss, who was amazing, who was the kind of boss that really partnered with you. He was the kind of boss that really encouraged you. And he was kind of boss that that you could really flourish with. So I have had one good boss, well, the PROSPER not very good, but only one was toxic. And so as we talk about, like difficult bosses or difficult people or unconscious leadership, I think there's a big difference between someone who is an okay person, but not a good boss, right? A good boss for you. But there are people so that maybe they're unconscious of the impact of their of their bossing behaviors. But I do hope we do talk a little bit about like those that are not good people. They're more than unconscious. They're, they're the toxic people, because I think that's a real problem in the world. Carley Hauck  12:06   It is, it is an actually, I wanted to go there a little bit with you right now. So thank you for sharing all of that. So this was one of the quotes that I found in your book, and I, you know, I bring research into everything that I am also talking about, because it it really grounds it in a certain reality, especially for those skeptics, but you shared that research shows that it takes up to 22 months to emotionally and psychologically recover from the trauma of a psycho crazy bully tyrannical screaming egomaniac boss. Yeah, that's a long time. Yeah. And so what would Mary Abbajay  12:47   you say? I'll tell you, Carly. So you know, that was the research that I found a couple of years ago, and I wrote the book. And since then, I have probably spoken to well over like 10s and 10s of 1000s of people. And in every crowd, there's going to be 20%, who have had a psycho crazy, tyrannical, toxic boss, right? And I always ask people, How long did it take you to recover? And I think the 22 months was conservative, because I am hearing people talk about the trauma 23456 years later. So I think that 22 months is actually if I was to rewrite the book today, I might say up to five years, because I have met way too many people that are still struggling and still recovering from that trauma years and years after. Carley Hauck  13:35   I just feel such sadness and heaviness in my heart. Because I know part of why you and I are both here is we want to create healing organizations know that let work be a place where we can thrive. Thank you for for sharing that. Yeah. Mary Abbajay  13:52   And I will say this to any of your listeners, because this is really like this just gets my goat that we still in the 21st century. With all we know about neuroscience with all we know about organizational effectiveness and engagement, that organizations still allow toxic leaders in their organization. It just like I was, you know, we just saw the thing about Jimmy Fallon, like every week and these are famous people. Think about all those organizations that don't have famous leaders that nobody cares that this is happening. So you know, I want people to realize that if you are working in a toxic situation, you have to get out. No one is coming to save you. HR isn't coming to save you. They may want to save you they don't usually have the power to save you because the toxic people usually sit at the very top and toxic workplaces will make you physically ill you have a 60% increased likelihood of cardiac diseases stroke, it decimates your immune system, making you susceptible to all sorts of diseases like flus cold ulcers, it decimated You know, your emotional field, your psychological field, your mental health. And we know that people stay in toxic situations two years longer than they stay in other non toxic situations, because there's a lot of toxicity that goes on and what we call high meaning careers. fields like law fields, like medicine, fields, like politics, fields, like government. So people will tend to stay longer in these fields, because they really love their job, or they're passionate about what they're doing and for whom nonprofits is also a big place for toxicity. And so people tend to stay much longer, I just have to tell you, if you if you are in a toxic situation, you have to get out 10s of 1000s of people, I've asked this other question, too, how long did it take you to recover? And did you leave too soon, not one person has ever said they'd love to soon. They didn't leave soon enough. Carley Hauck  15:58   Thank you for sharing that. And I do believe that some of these conscious leadership qualities that we're going to talk about will actually one really help us to know our value to know our worth, and be able to manage ourselves more quickly, so that we can manage up. But I agree with you. And also would love to just talk about the deeper aspect of why these folks are showing up in the way that they are. We all have trauma, you know, individually, collectively, intergenerationally. And there are folks that are not doing their inner work, have not done their inner work. And frankly, the workplace has not always and mostly has not invested in learning or leadership development. That is why Leadership Development Manager effectiveness is thankfully the number one priority for HR right now. Because that's the only way we're going to be able to create a future of work that actually works for people. And hallelujah, for the younger generations that are really speaking up, they're more socially engaged, they're saying no, and they are the bulk of the workforce. So we have to change, because otherwise no one's going to come to work. Mary Abbajay  17:22   We do have to change, you know, the challenge will be with this change is that will HR be empowered to actually make a difference? I fear that some of this will go by the wayside, like D Ay ay ay is going a little bit by the wayside. Because at the end of the day, a lot of private sector organizations and nonprofit organizations always put their bottom line value on how much money is this organization making. And so I think one that challenges for HR when the opportunities is for them to show the bottom line, cash money value of actually investing in good leadership and good management, and employee health and an employee engagement. And it might take a newer generation of the C suite executives to actually place that value, right to actually be open to looking at that value. Because at the end of the day, for a lot of corporations, Money talks, and employee health walks us. So I really do, I really am I'm very hopeful. And a little cautious around this, I just hope that we can get the C suite to see the actual money value of being a good leader. Because you know, you see all these toxic leaders are all these bad leaders. They're just all these unhappy, low employee, low engagement places, and they still don't do anything about it. So we've got a kind of a new breed of C suites, they actually appreciate this, I think, Carley Hauck  18:49   well, and that's where really investing in leadership development to invest in how to be a co leadership Mary Abbajay  18:55   development only works if the top tier leadership places a value on it. Right? So I'm the you and I are both trainers, right? So we go in and we teach all the great skills, how to be, you know, a great leader, a great manager. And if they aren't rewarded for that, that doesn't happen, right? So their top leaders don't actually invest in making sure and holding those managers accountable for being good people, managers, the managers don't have any incentive. You take an organization, I think it's Deloitte or Accenture, I was getting confused. They got very serious about making sure their managers were more people centric. And so the managers part of their performance review is are you having? I think they have to do like monthly check ins with their people, are you and they're actually grading the managers on the success of their people in terms of their people's happiness and their engagement levels. And that seems to be working. So I think if we're going to do the leadership development, that's the carrot but you also need the reward? Carley Hauck  20:01   Well, I I agree with you. And, you know, going back to what you were sharing, there is more retention, there is more internal mobility, you know, there is more employee well being and people do want to stay when there are strong conscious leaders of the home. Yes, but But going back to leadership development, I started off with my path as a therapist, so I worked a lot with traumatized populations. And so I feel trauma informed on you know, the signs to look for. But we need to be assessing like, who has trauma and who doesn't, and who is doing the inner work, so that that's not being repeated, and they're now traumatizing other people. So I, I don't know if the workplace is ready for that. But like, that's the other piece we have to solve. We have to actually equip trainers, coaches, HR on being informed about trauma, and then and then solutions for healing. Yeah, that's just that's another piece that I see. So we are talking a bit about, you know, leadership manager, effectiveness being the number one priority in HR. And I wanted to talk a little bit about this conscious leadership framework, because I think it complements really well, some of the pieces in your book, and your research. So I distilled that there were nine different leadership competencies, that all worked in tandem, and actually on a continuum. And every person has different ranges of use, but when they're all actually dialed in, at the same time, we end up leading from our best selves, we can empower and lead our teams, we can increase trust, psychological safety, inclusion, innovation, without burning our folks out or further traumatizing them. And so I always like to kind of put myself you know, in the ring and ask my, my guests as well, where they think they are falling on some of these dimensions. So there, there are nine, which is self awareness, self management, empathy, resilience, which is a growth mindset, humility, self belonging, which is really including the dimensions of self love, self compassion, self forgiveness, self acceptance, and then physical, and psychological well being. And so not to put you too much on the spot, Mary, but I feel curious, what are one or two areas that you feel like as a leader, you're really prioritizing you, you're leading from this place, so you can lead others in a more conscious way? Mary Abbajay  22:55   I think for me, I think there's four that I think there's four, I don't know that I prioritize them. But there's four that I think are, are very prevalent in my day to day in my life, and one is self management. I am I'm constantly trying to self manage myself, I try to think about how do I need to say this was my impact for your listeners to know I'm actually like, I'm talking really slow right now. And it's really hard for me, like so like really trying to like in, you know, I'm a very direct, fast paced, you know, I'm a high strung type a person, so I'm always trying to manage that. So self management is a very big priority for me. My empathy is pretty strong. My husband says, It's my Libra moon, and my rising Gemini. I know, that's silly. My husband's on to the horoscope. But I do and I think empathy is really great. I think sometimes empathy gets in the way for me making tough decisions. But there's something that I don't want to lose resilience and a growth mindset are things I really try to prioritize, you cannot be as you know, a business owner, and not have to not cultivate resiliency, and a growth mindset. Because the minute you think that you you're all that in a bag of chips, you're gonna get smacked down. And the minute you think your business is all going good, you're gonna lose a big client. And the minute you think, you know, everything and you start, you stop being a learner, you're gonna lose it. And then humility, I think, I think I tend to be a very humble person. And I think humility is really important. Maybe it verges on the, on the side of self deprecation, which isn't necessarily so good. But yeah, so those are the four that I think are most prevalent in my life. Carley Hauck  24:35   Thank you. Yeah. Thank you self management, of resilience. And then I heard in humility, being humility. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Mary Abbajay  24:46   I can reach my husband says, that means I let my team walk all over me. He's like, You need to just you just need to lay down the lawn like Oh, but they're really busy. I'll just take on this piece of work for them. Carley Hauck  24:57   So when you talk about self management? What are your tips for self managing? I heard you say that you're trying to talk slowly. Why are you trying to do that right now in this moment, Mary Abbajay  25:10   because I lose the idea myself on my podcast and other people's podcasts or on, you know, video of me and I am talking way too fast. So I'm trying to slow it down so that people can hear me and understand. And plus, sometimes my mouth moves faster than my brain. That's not always a great thing. But yeah, so when I say self management, I, you know, I'm fairly aware of my, of my tendencies that are not going to have positive impact on people. So I do set an intention around a handful of my less than lovely qualities to try to make them more palatable to other people. I'm a big believer in the platinum rule, you know, really find out to treat others as they want to be treated. And so self managing myself around people who operate differently than me, is something I really work on. I work hard on trying to do. Carley Hauck  26:04   Hmm, thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it. You know, where do you think some of the more unconscious leaders? Where do you think they might be lower Mary Abbajay  26:17   self awareness completely, is completely with self awareness, and then self management. So you know, I think, first of all, let's be honest, human beings are as are not very self aware, we like to think we're self aware. But we are not, I think it's Adam Grant that talks a lot about the lack of our self awareness. And not only are we not really self aware about what's driving us, we really lack awareness, and concern, I think about how our actions, our words, or deeds, and our behaviors are impacting other people. I really liked Tasha, Europe's work on this, in your book insight, where she did, she does a lot of work with C suite executives. And she found like 95% of them think that they're highly, highly self aware, and that she did some research on that by interviewing their teams. And something like only 15 15% of them actually were self aware. So I think that I think self awareness, especially around your impact on others, how other people experience you is very, very low in leaders. And I think it gets worse, as leaders go up the chain of command, because as you go up the chain of command, first of all, people stop giving you feedback, right? They stop telling you the truth about who you are. And I think quite frankly, people start believing their own shit, I'm sorry, that's French, for married, people start believing their own stuff, like I'm so good, I'm this, I'm this important. I'm so smart. I'm up here in the C suite. And I think that people really lose a lot of their self awareness. And if you don't have self awareness, you're not gonna be able to do self management. And the other thing I think that happens in leadership, is, as you were pointing out, we don't necessarily do a great job in America, of actually developing our leaders or managers before they become leaders or managers. Harvard did a study on this a few years back, and they found most managers get their first taste of being a supervisor or a manager in their late 20s, or early 30s. But they don't get significant training on that until their late 30s, early 40s. So for 10 years, they're just kind of making it up, right. And if they're trying to make it up based on a culture that has poor management examples, or poor leadership examples, then they're not going to get any self awareness, therefore, they're not going to get the self management about how the impact of their management style is working or not working. Carley Hauck  28:36   Agreed. And, you know, most people leaders have been advanced for their technical skills, not because of their people skills. That's exactly right. And they're still calling people skills, soft skills. But if we can't manage or empower our people, we're not going to be able to get the deliverables or the business objectives done. Like it's just not going to happen. Mary Abbajay  29:00   I know. And the other thing that I see Carly is that there's a lot of people that are managers, or leaders, they don't really want to manage the people, right? And so it's if you want to be a good people manager, if you're only taking that job to make more money or advance your career, which I understand, but if you don't want the people part of the job, then where's the incentive for you to become self aware, right, or to be have self manage or even to have the the humility or the empathy or the resilience from other people management? Carley Hauck  29:31   So hearing that most people are not very self aware, one of the things that I know that I do, and that I would hope to encourage in more learning and leadership development programs, and I don't do it all the time, but I try to, is to check in on. So what's your reaction to what I just said? Like what was the impact of that? Yeah, and yeah, that takes it down a notch and it does take more time. But how was My Message received? Because if we don't ask, then people are likely not always going to tell us, you and I are more direct. So we will probably tell people in a kind, indirect way, but most people don't feel safe. They don't either feel safe in themselves, or they don't have the courage to say it out loud. Because that that also has not been something that has been very promoted in our culture is Mary Abbajay  30:27   I think you're right. And I think you have bosses like telling me the truth, I want to hear it. But you know, they don't, because their past behavior has shown you that they don't. So I think that's always a very interesting thing. You know, and I think, you know, when you're talking about managing up, you know, I think self awareness and self management is really key for managing up. And so I often tell people, you know, if you really want to understand your impact on people, the best way to do that, and you can do the 360. But it's really to reach out to like, 10 of your colleagues and say, What five adjectives would you use to describe me? What like, what do people say about me when I'm not in the room? You know, what skills or talents Am I known for, and asking the people that will be honest with you, and then being really open to hearing that. So I think that if we can start developing our self awareness of how we as humans, impact other human beings, early on in our career, I think that really helps us develop that openness to feedback, the openness to take a look at ourselves as we move up into the food chain. This is also why I actually do whenever I do like those personality, things like the disc or predictive index, or Myers Briggs, I really liked those in the sense of, if it can open up people's minds as to understanding the difference between their intention and their impact. I think we can go a long way, just knowing that as you know, an introvert, just because I'm not talking doesn't mean I don't care about you, or you know, as a ad on the desk, just because I'm very direct with you. It doesn't mean I don't care about you. So I think the more we can understand how the how our behaviors may be misinterpreted by other people, I think that can help develop more self awareness. Carley Hauck  32:16   Hmm, loving all this input. Thank you. Yeah. The next area that I wanted to go into, and I love that you said, you know, self awareness, self management are the pieces that you think are really low. And these unconscious leaders, I would also say empathy, and humility, which were two of your strengths, I think they tend to be more of my strengths as well, you know, if you can admit that you're, you got it wrong, you made a mistake. If you can't actually emphasize that empathize with what's actually happening for the other person, then again, you're not going to be able to be a very conscious caring leader. Mary Abbajay  32:53   I agree. I just got a call from a law firm that wants me to help them teach their mid mid career associates how to give feedback, they said it, can you also teach them how to be more empathetic? Yes, I will try. But things like empathy, like that's a hard thing to teach. Right, Carly? I mean, you can explain it, you can demonstrate it, you can coach them. But that is kind of at some point, don't you think that empathy is a choice like that you must in some way choose to look at something from someone else else's perspective. At some point, you have to choose to whether or not you want to appreciate their experience or their so I'm curious to hear from you. Like, how do you teach empathy? Carley Hauck  33:40   Great question. Well, in chapter two of my book, which is the inner game of emotional intelligence, I talk about, you have the inner game, which is the self awareness and self management, and then you have the outer game. So when those are cultivated, then you're able to have more social awareness, which is oh, what might be happening for this person. And then number four is the relationship mastery. So those are actually the four facets of Dan Goleman emotional intelligence, however, like they really pertain to the inner cultivation, and then what shows up on the outside, but what, what I would say is, as far as helping people build empathy is that it's really helpful if you have them think about someone that they care about. So just imagine that this person is going through this right now. Like it could be their sister, it could be their daughter, it could be their mother. And once you bring it into somebody in their sphere and circle that they care about, it's much easier for them to then have empathy even for the difficult person. But you I would say start with someone they like first or you know, to build that empathy muscle and then you can start to expand it out even to have empathy for the difficult person because ultimately, it's that difficult person is just hurting, they're wounded, they've had trauma, right? They're not either so conscious of it, or they are conscious of it. But they're still a messy human. And so I can have compassion for their wounding, for their hurting, and also hold really strong boundaries around how I'm going to be put in the line of fire, and also call on allies. You know, this is one thing about managing those more toxic leaders in the eye 100% agree with you, you have to get out this is going in a different direction. But I had wanted to say this earlier, I had just forgotten, I think it's super important that we also find our allies, you know, in the workplace, that are practicing the same kinds of leadership skills, because who we surround ourselves with, is actually going to influence us the most. And if we can have a buffer of people that are validating our experience, that are also able to say, Hey, I had that experience with this person, too, then HR would feel more empowered to do something, right. It's called activating Mary Abbajay  36:10   your support network. That's how I refer to, but you know, but HR is only empowered as much as they're empowered. So we have to be really clear, I don't want to give people false hope, if you go to HR, your problems can be solved. It really depends on how much power HR has and who the toxic person is. Because there's also the whole whistleblower thing, like I could tell you horror stories about people that have went gone to HR and just made things worse for them. So it's really you gotta know, before, before anyone goes to HR, you really need to check out how well your HR has handled situations like this in the past, right? So ask around a little bit. But you know, it's funny, we're talking about empathy around like that. I teach that all the time, when I'm telling people to manage up as well, like, exactly like this person, this boss was a micromanager or this boss that's doing this are annoying you, you know, think for a minute, what's going on for them, right? Or think for a minute, I often do this make for men, the last time that you micromanage somebody, or the last time that you did behavior that you weren't proud of, you know, and that that can help kind of get people out of the amygdala hijack. Because what happens when we're dealing with difficult people, we get very frustrated, very fight or flight, you know, and so you got to get out of that in order to be able to make good choices. Carley Hauck  37:27   Definitely. Well, let's go into an example of a difficult manager and how we might manage ourselves and then manage up. And I also just want to share as I was reading through your book, and there's there's so many different manager types. I could relate more strongly to a few of them. And I'm bringing this up because in the chapter where we talk about the seagulls, which is the oh, goodness, sorry, the the nitpickers in the seagulls. Yeah, as I was, as I was actually reading through the nitpicker, because that comes first and then we go on to the seagulls. I love to the distinction that you put in is that the nitpickers are really about perfection versus the micromanagers are about control. But I'm springing this up because I could see how my team at times has thought of me as a nitpicker. Oh, sure. Because I have a high bar for excellence. Mary Abbajay  38:30   You know, the thing is, we've all done all these behaviors. We've all done them. All right, if you've worked long enough, but we don't judge ourselves as these things right? The circumstances, you know, so yeah, so the nitpicker so micro managers are about control. You're right. So most micro managers tend to be nitpickers. But not all nitpickers are micro managers. Because a nitpicker is the person that's going to nitpick small things for perfection. They may be important things or they might be minor things, you know, but they're probably gonna let you do your your gig your stuff, and then they're gonna swoop in afterwards and nitpick so I can be a nitpicker to my team will tell you that I nitpick their slideshows. That thought Saglie I don't like that graphic. I don't nitpick the content, which is the important thing, right? I have a certain visual I want. So yeah, understood. So if you have a nitpicky boss, it's really important to find out like what they care about, like, you know, like, is it the font? Is it the format? Is it the color? Is it the use of the Oxford comma or no Oxford comma, you know, so don't resist what the nitpicker was, and choose your battles wisely. You know, if you're just and be prepared for it. So if you know that your boss is going to nitpick something, then give them a draft an early draft and let them nitpick the early draft. Find out ask them questions ahead of time is the particular font you want is Is there a format you prefer? You know, what kind of graphics marry do you think would be great for this slideshow? That sort of thing? So find out, I was working with this law firm and this, we're doing a Managing Up course in this first year associate, you know, they have no power, first year associate comes up to me and says, Mary, I need your help. The Managing Partner won't use the extra comma. How can I give him that feedback that he's wrong? It's like, you know what you don't. If he doesn't want to use the extra comma, that's not a battle that that's not a hill, you want to die on your first year. So you have to pick your battles wisely. When it comes to the debt with nitpicker, and then ask questions like find out, you know, so Carly, why do you like things this way? Tell me about your preference for this. Because the more you can learn about what your boss cares about, the more you can figure out how to make things are more in alignment. Now, of course, we're not talking about things that are unethical, or things that are bad or wrong. We're talking about nitpicky things. Carley Hauck  41:04   Well, what I tell my team too, is like, if you're not clear on what I am actually asking for, then don't just do it and get it wrong. Because then I'm gonna go and tell you, you need to redo it. Like if there's even an wrinkle of I don't know if this is right, just text me call me asked me. Let's have a conversation. Because otherwise, it's annoying for you. And for me. Yeah. So, but that one, I just happen to bring it up because it's such a good one. And I bet everybody can relate to that one. But it's in the same chapter. Let's go into this. Because there's two kinds because there's Mary Abbajay  41:40   two kinds. Yeah, there's all seagulls swoop, people all seagulls swoop, you have a sweeper and a pooper and a super, and a scooper. So the swooper and pooper swoops in our project has been hands off, they swoop in, and they poop all over it. Like they just are like, this is awful. This is awful. Damn, why were you guys doing it, I know what you're doing. And they just, you know, Crusher ready. And then they swoop right back out, leaving like doctress of like bad feelings and, you know, crushed hearts and souls. So that's the Super and pooper, then you have the swooper and scooper. And this is the boss that you know, assigns you a project, and then all of a sudden they swoop in and they take the project away for two for their own, they take it away, and they put their name on it. And you've worked hard on it. And suddenly it's away from you, and you are really bummed out. So those are the two different kinds of seagulls. Carley Hauck  42:34   I really appreciate that. So I had this idea that perhaps, you know, we could roleplay this. So let's say that I have a boss that is a super. And I was working really hard on Unknown Speaker  42:45   pooper scooper. Carley Hauck  42:47   As a scooper. Unknown Speaker  42:49   He's super super. Carley Hauck  42:50   Yeah, thank you. So the seagull have a boss us swoops in, and scoops in. And it's a project I've been working really hard on, I'm presenting it to senior stakeholders. And then all of a sudden, they act like it's theirs, they take credit for it. Yeah, as I think about that, I would get triggered. That would be something that I really have to spend a little more time self managing myself my reaction to not take it personally. Yeah, to understand my motive or their motivations. And then therefore to advocate for myself, how would you coach me to manage up in that scenario, especially with senior stakeholders? Mary Abbajay  43:42   Yeah, so there's a couple of things with the you know, with the CIO, there's the scooper, that's gonna steal the credit. And then there's just a scoop of this gonna take over the project. I mean, they're kind of similar, but they're a little bit different. Like, they might actually take over the project and still give you some credit as they finish it. So the first thing I would say to you is, you know, is this a pattern? Like, is this a pattern that this boss does frequently? Or infrequently, they would ask you to kind of look for the patterns, like, as there are certain types of projects that they swoop and scoop on? Are there certain, like what's going on in the culture that makes them like this project suddenly has probably gotten to be high visibility, right? So I asked you about the pattern, so that you can anticipate it. The other thing I'd say is, you know, are you keeping this person in the loop on this, like, Did this person Scoop it because they didn't know how, where it was? Or are they scooping it because they didn't know where it was? And they want to take the credit for it. So then I would want to ask you around like, what, and part of this would also rely on what kind of a boss this person is. Could you have a conversation with this boss about this? Could you go in and say, you know, Hey, boss, I was really disappointed that not gonna be able to work on XYZ project or, you know, I'd really like to get some feedback on my piece of the project. Was my performance not satisfactory, just curious as to, you know what it was? Why, why I'm no longer working out, I tried to avoid saying why you took it away from me. But find a nice way to do that. No, Carley Hauck  45:20   I think leading with curiosity, when you're not in a triggered place is really great. Like, Oh, I wonder why did why did that end up being put on your calendar and not mine anymore? sense it in that way? And Mary Abbajay  45:36   that's something really important when you're not in a triggered state. Carley Hauck  45:40   Yes. Yes, I have a whole framework on triggers, which I'll actually leave in the show notes, because I have to practice it all the time. Yeah. And I think in order to manage up, we have to manage ourselves. Yep. Mary Abbajay  45:54   And then the last thing I'll say about the scooper is, you know, even you know, anticipate this for the next time that they're going to scoop it. But sometimes, if you keep them in the loop, and you see see other people, especially other people that this project is impacting, it's gonna be a lot harder for them to steal the credit if other people know you're working at it. And the last thing I'll say about this is, of course, then you can also when it's all done, you can also go back in and say, I would love to know how that project turned out. How are my pieces, so you can like, get some feedback and like, post thing. And then lastly, and I can't live, we're gonna suggest this, I might deny it. You know, this is what the gossip mill is for. And I don't mean bad mouthing your boss, but make it known, make sure people know, your contribution to this project. You know, like, if you ever run into his boss, and in the elevator or her his or their boss and elevator, and they say what you've been working on, you can say, you know, what, I was really lucky enough to work on that pesky project that my boss handed in, it was really exciting. And I really liked the opportunity to support that project. Don't take all the credit. But you can also do some backdoor self promotion on that. Carley Hauck  47:02   I love that. So holding people accountable by you know, really having all the stakeholders in the same email thread, transparency, and then also just speaking aloud your contribution with other folks and other stakeholders. I think that's, that's really great. Mary Abbajay  47:19   And then finally, you know, if your boss does this a lot and steals credit a lot. Then you may not be he she or they may not be the right boss for you. Because occasionally, you know, because some bosses say, you work for me, your ideas are my ideas. Right. So that's kind of the old school bossiness. You know, the 20 century boss. And if that's not your thing, and I don't blame you, it's not my thing, either, then you, you, maybe you need to find a different boss. Because if you're not getting what you need, as professional as a human being, if you're not being valued, if they don't find you valuable, and your ideas, then there's no shame in quitting like, find something was find a place where people do value you and they do find you valuable, and you get what you need, emotionally, psychologically, intellectually and fulfilling in your career. So you have a scooper and it drives you crazy. Get a new boss, get new jobs. Yeah, those are all really give yourself permission to quit. Uh huh. Carley Hauck  48:19   Yeah. So I've got two last questions for you. Okay. A lot of people are, you know, looking for new roles and new jobs they're interviewing, I am in that boat right now, I'm just going to put myself in the ring interviewing, you know, new potential supervisors for my for my new internal role. What are some things that I can be assessing to figure out? Who is this person, like, what kind of a boss are they going to be? And what's difficult about this, Mary, is that I will have one conversation with this person to be able to say, I'm the right candidate for you. And we may have a half hour, we may have 45 minutes. So ultimately, I'd love to be able to have further conversations, because I'm interviewing them as much as they're interviewing me. And I'm putting myself, you know, in this in the eye position, but I really want this to be in service of everybody that's thinking about this. Mary Abbajay  49:12   Yeah. You know, this is a hard one, I'm much better at telling you what to ask once you get in. But here's what I'm gonna say it for this. First of all, if you're going in person, right, if you're going into a physical office to interview with that person face to face, which I think happens still occasionally, mostly virtual days. But if you do get to go visit, physically, trust your gut, like trust the vibe you feel in the office, because Aska not only tell you a lot, it's gonna tell you a lot about the culture. What do people look like? Are people smiling? Did it look happy? They look stressed. So that sort of thing. So trust and trust, like the vibe you get from someone physically, also trust whatever vibe you can get virtually, although it's a little bit harder. I would ask questions like, you know, tell me about your best employee who's really successful here. What are you doing? Just priorities for your team. So I'd ask things like that. I would say, you know, what drives you crazy about about? I said, what drives you crazy about your employees? Or what are your biggest pet peeves? And you can learn a lot about from people ask about their pet peeves. I would also ask them, What do you like best about being a manager? Hmm, Carley Hauck  50:20   that's a great question. Mary Abbajay  50:22   What do you like best about being a manager? It's hard, because the really the really toxic bosses are just going to be lying. But I would say tell me about your greatest. Tell me. Tell me about if you want to find out about their work life balance, you know, tell me about how you encourage work life balance or? Or how or how do Carley Hauck  50:41   you set boundaries? Yeah. Between work things like Mary Abbajay  50:45   that are really great. Right? What what questions have you been asking? Carley Hauck  50:51   Well, I have been asking great question, some questions when I have an opportunity, because sometimes they don't leave you any room to ask a question. So then I follow up with questions. But I'm always asking them, you know, what is the what is the personality style that's going to be most complimentary with you. And the team is great. And then I also ask, you know, what does success look like in this role in the first three months, in the first six months, in in the first year, because then I know if I'm going to either flop on my face, or if this is going to be a place, I can really bring my best value, and create success, which is what I want, which is what they want, which is Mary Abbajay  51:32   what they want. You know, the other thing you can do, the other thing you can do is you can you can say, Hey, would it be possible for me to talk to another team member? To learn about that? Or do you want to be a little more devious, I don't think is devious. Because you know, you're about to commit, maybe commit to these people. You could literally reach out to somebody Carley Hauck  51:51   done that with other people in the company. What's the culture? Like? Who you Yeah, Mary Abbajay  51:56   what do people say about this boss and things like that? I think that is totally fair game. If you don't know anybody at the company. That's what LinkedIn, that's what LinkedIn is for. cyber stalking. But I think the more I think, you know, I so when I interview for people, people, I actually, I really insist that they talk to my team first. And, and I, my team knows that they, they are really clear about who I am. And they're really honest with with with the people, and then they will come to me and say, Yeah, this person is not for you, or you're gonna love this person. And they're gonna love you. So I really like it when you went hiring bosses, let the team talk to the people too. Carley Hauck  52:39   Well, and then pretty much all the feedback you gave would also the things that you could be assessing in the first 90 days, but also just having more direct conversations with this person, you know, to see, okay, there's going to be certain things that aren't going to work well. But how can I adapt? Right? And and how can how can we have this be a win win for both of us? Mary Abbajay  53:00   That's exactly right. That's exactly right. You because yeah, and hopefully, and by the way, if anyone's looking for work life balance, and you say, you know, what's the culture here, and the boss, the hiring person says to you, oh, we work hard, and we play hard. That's a high work culture. Carley Hauck  53:20   Well, and the other part of your book, which I think is really helpful, too, is that you're able to assess your strengths and your weaknesses, and also what kind of boss you're going to vibe with and best. And so again, this comes back to self awareness, like, you know, own own your, your parts, and then find the right fit for you. Because not everyone is going to be the right fit. Mary Abbajay  53:47   You bless your heart, you are 1%, right, you know, what we tend to do is we all tend to like the way we operate. So when people operate differently than us, then we tend to get really frustrated and make them you know, make us the victim and make them the perpetrator. And the truth is, there are some people like my favorite boss might be your worst nightmare. You know, your favorite boss might be someone else's worst nightmare. And so really be able to own your own piece of the puzzle is really important to be honest with yourself about what what kind of person you are and what kind of person you're going to work well with. And what you might need to do more of less of or differently in order to work well with the boss that you've decided to work for. Carley Hauck  54:25   For sure. And that comes back to the self management, right is owning your reaction to whatever's happening, because because you're the only person that can change that reaction. Mary Abbajay  54:38   Yeah, because we only have control over ourselves. We don't control anybody else. But I do have some questions that you can ask once you start, okay. By the way, if anybody wants these questions, they can just email me because you're gonna put that in the show notes or something reach out to me or find me on LinkedIn. Yes, Carley Hauck  54:53   your LinkedIn will be in the show notes and your website. Mary Abbajay  54:57   And these are really basic questions, but I'm telling you Guys, they work so much. And managers love it. They always know they should be having these with you. But if they don't things simple things like What's your preferred mode of communication? Yeah. How do you like to be approached regarding an issue or challenge or a problem? How often do you like to meet as a team or one on one? Is the question you did before? What does success look like to you defined top performer? How often do you like to be updated? And projects? How do you like your updates? Like I like updates, but I want to be kept in the loop not in the soup. So I have a couple of people on my team that are really detail oriented, and my eyes glaze over. isn't done? That's to my mind. If you had a perfect team member, what would that person look like? What are your top priorities? What the biggest pressure is on you or the team right now? How can I best support you? What do you find annoying about working with others? And then always say, What can I do more of less of a definitely to work well with you? And what else do I need to know about working well with you always say what else and just have this conversation 15 minute conversation, I call it the preferences, priorities and pet peeves. This way, you're going to cover not only their work style, but like what's important to them, what they care about how they like to work, and it's going to be a good conversation. And I will also say this, as Carly and I were saying not everybody's very self aware, take their answers, but also measure them against how that you actually see them behaving. Like what they say, I'm very communicative. I love pop in meetings, and you know that they don't you see the behavior, the doubt. So take what they say, but don't treat it as gospel to actually see that behavior. Carley Hauck  56:44   I love all of those. And being that, you know, I bring a lot of coaching into the work that I'm doing. I've brought in actually a lot of those questions to support leaders, you know, to have conversations with their direct reports and with their supervisors. But then after you get those answers, what I think is even a really good next step is that one, you're writing it down, you repeat back what you heard them, say, so that it's actually correct. And then you create an agreement. So I hear you want me to do this, this and this. And then you say, well, on my side, I'd really love and you request which you need, and then you create an agreement, and you're probably going to make some oops, so then what's your accountability to come back to the agreement that you just had, you know, and this is where psychological safety and trust is built. But this, these types of questions, I think are essential in your one on ones, but also in the team. There's so many teams, senior leadership teams that I get asked to come in, and they haven't done any of them. They don't know how your team wants to work. So how are you even? How are you delivering on projects, y'all? Mary Abbajay  57:56   You know, I love that because I think I think, you know, this is a partnership like employee and leaders partnership. And I love that you are helping the leaders ask these questions downward as I'm helping the employees ask them upwards, because it is a conversation that both should have. And I always say to my folks, you know, hopefully once you ask your boss these questions, they'll turn around and ask you the same questions and listen to them. And it's always makes me sad when someone emails me back and says, You know what, I had this great conversation with my boss, I asked this person all these questions, but they didn't ask me a single one. I was like, wow, that's sad. That's a missed opportunity from that boss, Carley Hauck  58:35   for sure. But this is how we change it. Right? This is this is when everyone's talking about human centered people first. Yeah, you start with connection, Unknown Speaker  58:44   you start with the people. Carley Hauck  58:48   How to Care for this person? Who is this person? How are we going to collaborate? Well, Mary, this was amazing. Thank you. Again, I just love this conversation. And again, everyone, this book is fabulous. And I love all those questions. So you so is there anything else you want to leave folks with? Mary Abbajay  59:07   I just want to say you know your work, you spend so many of your waking hours at work. I truly believe those should be great hours, there should be hours where you can use your mind, your heart, your creativity, your passion, they should be hours that that you that you find valuable and that add to your life, not detract your life. So if you have a bad boss, or you're in a bad workplace experience, do what you can to get a better workplace experience. You deserve it. You deserve it. You only live once and your work should be a bonus to that and nine detractor for your life. So good luck. Thank you, Carly. This was so awesome and get Carly's book people and leader stop being jerks out there. I have I have a presentation that call that's called your team hates you and here's why. Carley Hauck  59:54   Oh wow. Mary Abbajay  59:57   Your direct boss is not being jerks and start Reading current Carly's book. Carley Hauck  1:00:03   Yeah. Be the the leader that others will never want to leave and want to follow. Right? That's right. That's the opportunity right now. Thank you, Mary. Thanks, Carly. Let me summarize some of the key points of the interview before we go and give you some action steps you can put into place today. First, manage yourself. Before we can manage up down or laterally, we have to be able to know what is happening inside our bodies, when to speak and when to be quiet. We want to be the calm in the midst of the storm. And there is emotional contagion, whether you're working from zoom, or you're actually in person, people can feel and sense where you might be in your body. And so navigating your triggers, you'll find a free meditation in the show notes that you can utilize. There's also lots of wonderful practices in my book, on how to be a conscious leader. And there is a very effective framework on navigating triggers. In fact, this topic is one of the most highly sought out team building sessions that I offer with senior leaders. And additionally, the nine leadership capabilities that Mary and I spoke about before, which is this validated framework that I've developed in the last decade. self management is key to that competency. There is also a team building workshop that I am doing in partnership with Team Rothery. And this is also in the show notes. And it's called from trigger to triumph. So if you're interested in that, you can book that with your team. I do that with a lot of teams. Second, manage down, up and laterally. With Remote distributed workforce, we need to begin to have conversations that invite people to share what their preferences for communication are, when they might actually work best during the day, which could be really different. It might be that they take a longer break at lunch, because they want to go exercise and they were up really early hour they've got child care. Find out with your team and your supervisor, how people work best, what is going to actually help them collaborate, communicate with you the best. Third, invest in learning and leadership development for everyone at the company. This is one of the best ways that you can create a whole healthy organizational culture. And we know that culture eats strategy for breakfast. In the conscious leadership programs that I have designed and developed for some really amazing companies, I have validated metrics to showcase that empathy goes up 74%. That's one of the most sought after leadership competencies in our workplace right now. Psych psychological safety goes up by 47% internal mobility engagement goes up by 20 to 30%. And I have many more incredible results that I could share with you. If you're interested in having me partner with you. For an internal director above learning leadership and culture role I am interviewing now for the right boss, team and company to join. I am so excited about this opportunity to serve a thriving organizational culture, please feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. Number four, if you are in a truly toxic environment with a harmful and unconscious boss, definitely check out Mary's book, there's a lot of really wonderful ways to manage up, and also resources. I also recorded a podcast on this topic a few years ago. And if you go to the shownotes, you'll see it's how to coach a harmful and unconscious leader. There are tips and strategies and as Mary and I spoke about can't change the person. So you do need to leave but before you leave, find your allies. And if it feels safe to do so speak up so that this behavior and this person can be held accountable and so that the hurt and harm doesn't continue. And also so that this person gets help and they get actually taken out of their people leader role. This person is not equipped to lead people. They would be better served to just navigate with technology, or potentially take some time off to do some deep for healing. And the last thing I'd like to preface is that we all are navigating individual, collective and intergenerational trauma. And it's really important as we come together and really create what can be a healing organization that we are trauma informed, and especially in the people function of HR talent, and the chief people officer, we need to know what the signs of trauma are, and also where to give people resources and help. Please reach out to me to have a conversation on this. There's a lot of resources that I have on this topic and other really great people to connect to you to. Again, Mary is amazing. Mary, thank you so much for your service and your leadership. And if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends, family, or colleagues. We're all in this together and sharing is caring. If you have any questions, comments or topics you would like me to address on the podcast, please email me at support at Carley hauck.com And finally, thank you for tuning in and being part of this community. We have several wonderful future shine podcast episodes, so make sure you don't miss any and until we meet again, be the light and shine your light  

Plants by nature are designed to interact with light. Satellites can measure the light reflected by plants to detect grapevine diseases before they are visible to the human eye. Katie Gold, Assistant Professor of Grape Pathology, Susan Eckert Lynch Faculty Fellow, School of Integrative Plant Science Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology Section of Cornell AgriTech is trailblazing remote disease detection with imaging spectroscopy also known as hyperspectral imaging. Imaging spectroscopy was developed by NASA to tell us what Mars was made out of. By turning satellites back on Earth, Katie and a team of scientists are learning how to use the light reflected back to manage grapevine viral and foliar diseases. Listen in to the end to get Katie's number one piece of advice on the importance of data management. Resources: Alyssa K. Whitcraft, University of Maryland Disease Triangle of Plant Pathology Gold Lab Katie Gold, Cornell University   Katie Gold - Twitter NASA AVIRIS (Airborne Visible and InfraRed Imaging Spectrometer) NASA Acres - applying satellite data solutions to the most pressing challenges facing U.S. agriculture NASA Emit Satellite NASA JPL (Jet Propulsion Laboratory) Planet Labs References: Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year - $50 OFF with code PODCAST23 Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  With us today is Katie Gold, Assistant Professor of Grape Pathology at Cornell AgraTech campus of the Cornell University. Thanks for being on the show.   Katie Gold  0:08  Well, thanks for having me.   Craig Macmillan  0:09  Today, we're going to talk about some really cool technology. I've been interested in it for a long time, and I can't wait to get an update on what all is happening. There's some really exciting work being done on using remote sensing for the detection of plant diseases. Can you tell us a little bit about what that research is about what's going on in that field?   Katie Gold  0:25  Sure, what isn't going on in this field, it's a really exciting time to be here. So I guess to put into context, we're really at this precipice of an unprecedented era of agricultural monitoring. And this comes from the intersection of you know, hardware becoming accessible, the data analytics becoming accessible, but also investment, you know, a lot of talk of ag tech being the next big thing. And with that comes this interest in using these cool and novel data streams for disease detection. So my group specializes in plant disease sensing, it's our bread and butter to what we entirely focus on. And we specialize in a technology called imaging spectroscopy for disease detection. So this is also known as hyperspectral imaging. Imaging spectroscopy is the technical term. And this is a type of remote sensing that it differs from, you know, radio wave remote sensing, and it focuses on light in the visible to shortwave infrared range.   Craig Macmillan  1:13  Talk a little bit more about that. So when we talk about hyperspectral, we're looking outside of the range of radiation, essentially, that's not just light.   Katie Gold  1:24  So yes, and no. So hyperspectral is a word that describes how the light is being measured, kind of colloquially, we assigned to it more meaning that it actually has. That's why I often like to differentiate between it for explanation sake, what hyperspectral imaging is, when we talk about using it in the full vSphere range, these are all types of light, you know, it's all aspects of the electromagnetic radiation scale. But this spectrum of light that ranges from the visible to the shortwave infrared, this spans a range of about 2100 wavelengths. So to put that into context, we see visible light only. And this spans a range of wavelengths, that's about 300 nanometers, and went from about 450 to 750. So if you think about all the richness of radiation, the subtlety in differences in color that you see in everyday light, all of that comes from those subtle interactions of, you know, specific wavelengths of light hitting that stuff and bouncing back into our eye. So now imagine having seven times more wavelengths than that, you know, we have 2100, different wavelengths that we measure. And those wavelengths that are beyond the range that we can see the reason why we don't see them as they're less abundant, they're less emitted by our sun, but they're still present, and they still interact with the world. In particular, they interact very strongly with chemistry, such as environmental chemistry. So imaging spectroscopy was developed by NASA to tell us what Mars was made out of, then one day, they're like, let's turn this baby around and pointed at the Earth. And we discovered that it's quite applicable for vegetative spectroscopy. So telling us what vegetation is made of what the composition of the Earth is. And because plant disease impacts chemistry, so dramatically, plant physiology, chemistry, morphology, such a dramatic chaotic impact. It's a really excellent technology to use for early detection. So those subtle little changes that occur within a plant before it becomes diseased to the human eye, but it's undergoing that process of disease.   Craig Macmillan  3:12  Can you expand on that point? Exactly how does this work in terms of the changes in the plant that are being picked up by viewing certain wavelengths? What's the connection there?   Katie Gold  3:23  Consider the leaf, right. So plants are an amazing thing to remotely sense because they're designed by nature to interact with light. Now that's in contrast to skin right that's designed to keep light out plants are designed to have light go in and out, etcetera. So light will enter our atmosphere from the sun, and it will do one of three things when it encounters a plant, it'll be reflected back, it will be absorbed for photosynthesis, or it will be transmitted through the plant. And the wealth of that light is actually reflected back. And that reflected light can be detected by something as distantly placed as a satellite in orbit. And how that light is reflecting off a plant is determined by the health status of a plant. So a healthy leaf, right? It's going to be photosynthesizing. This means that it's going to be absorbing red and blue light for photosynthesis, it's going to have a lot of chlorophyll, it's going to be nice, bright and green, it's going to reflect back a lot of green light. And then it's going to reflect back near infrared light, because that is the sort of light that corresponds really well to the cellular structure of a leaf, right, so a nice healthy leaf is going to bounce back near infrared light. Now an unhealthy plant, it's not going to be photosynthesizing properly. So it's going to be absorbing less red and blue light. Therefore, it will be reflecting more of that red light back, it's not going to have a lot of chlorophyll. So it's going to reflect back less green light, and it's not as healthy. It's not as robust, so it will reflect back less near infrared light. So by looking at those subtle differences, and this is where we get back to that idea of hyperspectral. Right. hyperspectral is a word about how a sensor is measuring light. And hyperspectral means that a sensor is measuring light at such narrow intervals, that it's a near continuous data product. And this is in contrast to a multispectral sensor something Like NDVI that measures light in big chunks. The power is when you have continuous data, right? You could do more complex analyses you just have more to work with. And when you have discrete data, this is what makes hyperspectral sensors more powerful. It's how they're measuring the light, and often, that they're measuring more light that our eyes can see. But that's not necessarily a given hyperspectral sensors do not need to measure beyond the visible range, they can solely be focused on the visual visible range. Because once again, hyperspectral is a word about how the light is being measured. But we oftentimes kind of colloquially, so assign more value to it. But let's take that in combination, right. So you have a hyperspectral sensor that's measuring light and very, very narrow intervals near continuous data product, you're measuring seven times more wavelengths than the eye can see, combined together. That's how this works, right? So those subtle differences and those wavebands how they're reflecting both direct interactions with plant chemistry, you know, some certain wavelengths of light will hit nitrogen bonds go wackadoo and bounce back, all crazy. Otherwise, we're making indirect inferences, right, you know, plant disease as a chaotic impact of plant health that impacts lots of areas of the spectrum. So we're not directly measuring the chemical impact, right? We're not saying okay, well, nitrogen is down two sugars are up three starch XYZ, we're measuring that indirect impact.   Craig Macmillan  6:19  That's pretty amazing. And so...   Katie Gold  6:21  I think it's cool, right? Yeah.   Craig Macmillan  6:24  The idea here is that there are changes in the leaf that can be picked up and these other wave lengths that we wouldn't see until it's too late.   Katie Gold  6:34  Exactly.   Craig Macmillan  6:35  Okay. So it's a warning sign. That gives us a chance to change management.   Katie Gold  6:40  Ideally, so. Right, so it depends on with the scale at which you're operating. So now here comes another level, right. So if you're considering just that one individual plant, it's different from when you're considering the whole scale of a vineyard, right, you want your sensing to be right size to the intervention that you're going to take. So my group works with two types of diseases primarily, we work with grape vine viral diseases, as well as grape vine foliar diseases, for example, a grape vine downy mildew, which is an Erysiphe caused by a Erysiphe pathogen, and grapevine powdery mildew, which is caused by a fungal pathogen. Now the sort of intervention that you would take for those two diseases is very different, right? With a viral disease, the only treatment that you have is removal, there's no cure for being infected with the virus. Now, with a fungal pathogen or an Erysiphe pathogen like grape downy mildew. If you detect that early, there are fungicides you can use with kickback action. Or otherwise, you might change the sort of what sort of choice you might make a fungicide right. If you know there's an actual risk in this location, you might put your most heavy hitting fungicides there than in areas where there is no disease detected, or the risk is incredibly low, you might feel more comfortable relying on a biological, thereby reducing the impact. So given the sort of intervention, you would take, we want to right size, our sensing approach for it. So with grapevine viral diseases, when the intervention is so has such a vast financial impact, right removal, we want to be incredibly sure of our data. So we focused on high spectral resolution data products for that ones, where we have lots of wavelengths being measured with the most precise accuracy so that we can have high confidence in that result, right? We want to give that to someone and say, Hey, we are very confident this is undergoing asymptomatic infection. Now, on the other hand, with these foliar diseases, they change at such a rapid timescale that you're more benefited by having an early warning that may be less accurate, right? So you're saying, hey, this area of your vineyard is undergoing rapid change it might be due to disease might be because your kid drove a golf cart through the vineyard, however, we're warning you regardless, to send someone out there and take a look and make a decision as to what you might do. Ideally, we would have a high spectral resolution regardless, right? Because more spectrum or better, but the realities of the physics and the actual logistics of doing the sensing is that we don't get to do that we have to do a trade off with spectral spatial and temporal resolution. So if we want rapid return, high degrees of monitoring, and we want that high spatial resolution suitable for a vineyard, we lose our spectral resolution, so we lose our confidence in that result. But our hope is that by saying, Hey, this is a high area of change, and giving you that information very quickly, you can still make an intervention that will be yield successful response, right? You'll go out there and you're like, Oh, yep, that's downy mildew. Otherwise, like, I'm going to take my kid keys like he's out here, my vineyard again. Right? So it's, it's kind of work balancing, right. So we have the logistics of the real world to contend with in terms of using sensing to make to inform management intervention.   Craig Macmillan  9:36  This technology can be used or applied at a variety of distances if I understand everything from proximal like driving through a vineyard to satellite.   Katie Gold  9:48  Oh, yeah. And we've worked with everything.   Craig Macmillan  9:50  Yeah, yeah. And everything in between. I mean, could you fly over is a lot of companies that do NDVIs with flyover.   Katie Gold  9:55  You can use robots like we do.   We can use robots, there's all kinds of things we can do. Or what is a what is NDVI for the audience, even though that's not what we're talking about. You and I keep using it.   So NDVI stands for Normalized Difference vegetative index. It's a normalized difference between near infrared light reflecting and red light. And it is probably the most accurate measurement we have of how green something is. And it's quite a powerful tool. As you you know, we've been using NDVI for well over 50 years to measure how green the earth is from space. That's powerful. But the power of NDVI is also its downside. And that because it is so effective at telling you how green something is, it cannot tell you why something is green. Or it cannot tell you why something is not green, it's going to pick up on a whole range of subtle things that impact plant health.   Craig Macmillan  10:40  And whereas the kind of work that you're doing differs from that in that it's looking at different frequencies, and a higher resolution of frequencies.   Katie Gold  10:51  Exactly. So for the most part, we do use NDVI. But we use it more as a stepping stone, a filtering step rather than the kind of end all be all. Additionally to we use an index that's a cousin to NDVI called EDI, that is adjusted for blue light reflectance, which is very helpful in the vineyard because it helps you deal with the shadow effects. Given the trellising system Iin the vineyard. But yes, exactly. We, for the most part are looking at more narrow intervals of light than NDVI and ranges beyond what NDVI is measuring.   Craig Macmillan  11:22  What's the resolution from space?   Katie Gold  11:24  That's a great question.   Craig Macmillan  11:25  What's the pixel size?   Katie Gold  11:27  One of the commercial satellite products we work with has half a meter resolution from space.   Craig Macmillan  11:32  Wow.   Katie Gold  11:33  Yeah, 50 centimeters, which is amazing. Yeah, that was exactly my reaction. When I heard about it, it was like I didn't get my hands on this. But as I mentioned before, right, you know, if that resolution, we trade off the spectral resolution. So actually, that imagery only has four bands, that effectively is quite similar to an NDVI sensor, that we do have a little more flexibility, we can calculate different indices with it. So we use that data product, 50 centimeters, we use three meter data products from commercial sources. And then we're also looking towards the future, a lot of my lab is funded by NASA, in support of a future satellite that's going to be launched at the end of the decade, called surface biology and geology. And this is going to put a full range Hyperspectral Imager into space that will yield global coverage for the first time. So this satellite will have 30 meter resolution. And it will have that amazing spectral resolution about 10 day return. And that 30 meter spatial size. So again, kind of mixing and matching, you don't get to optimize all three resolutions at once. Unfortunately, maybe sometime in my career, I'll get to the point where I get to optimize exactly what I want, but I'm not there yet.   Craig Macmillan  12:41  And I hadn't thought about that. So there's also a there's a time lag between when the data comes in and when it can be used.   Katie Gold  12:48  Yes.   Craig Macmillan  12:48  What are those lags like?   Katie Gold  12:50  It depends. So with some of the NASA data that we work with, it can be quite lagged, because it's not designed for rapid response. It's designed for research grade, right? So it's assuming that you have time, and it's going through a processing stage, it's going through corrections, etc. And this process is not designed to be rapid, because it's not for rapid response. Otherwise, sometimes when we're working with commercial imagery that can be available. If we task it, it can be available to us within 24 hours. So that's if I say, Hey, make me an acquisition. And they do and then within 24 hours, I get my imagery in hand. Otherwise to there's a there's delays up to seven days. But for the most part, you can access commercial satellite imagery of a scene of your choosing, generally within 24 hours of about three meter resolution to half a meter resolution. That is if you're willing to pay not available from the space agencies.   Craig Macmillan  13:42  I want to go back to that space agency thing first or in a second. What talk to me about satellite, we've got all kinds of satellites flying around out there.   Oh, we do.   All kinds of who's doing what and where and how and what are they? And how long are they up there. And...   Katie Gold  13:58  Well, I'll talk a little bit about the satellites that my program is most obsessed with. We'll call it that. I'll first start with the commercial satellite imagery that we use. This comes from Planet Labs. They're a commercial provider, they're quite committed to supporting research usages, but we've been using their data for three years now. Both they're tasked imagery, which is half a meter resolution, as well as their planet scope data, which is three meter resolution. And we've been looking at this for grapevine downy mildew. Planet Labs, their whole thing is that they have constellation architecture of cube sets. So one of the reasons why satellites are the big thing right now they are what everyone's talking about, is because we're at this point of accessibility to satellite data that's facilitated by these advances in hardware design. So one the design of satellites you know, we now have little satellites called CubeSats that are the size of footballs maybe a little bit bigger.   Craig Macmillan  14:48  Oh, really?   Katie Gold  14:48  Yeah, yeah, they're cool. They're cute. You can actually like kids science fair projects can design a CubeSat now, fancy kid school projects, at least not not where I was. As well as constellation architecture. So this is instead of having one big satellite, the size of a bus, you have something like 10, CubeSat, that are all talking to each other and working together to generate your imagery. So that's how you're able to have far more rapid returns, instead of one thing circling around the planet, you have 10 of them circling a little bit off. So you're able to get imagery far more frequently at higher spatial resolution. And this is now you know, trickled down to agriculture. Of course, you know, what did the Department of Defense have X years ago, they've, I'm excited to see what will finally be declassified eventually, right. But this is why satellite imagery is such a heyday. But anyway, that's, that's the whole Planet Labs stick, they use CubeSats and constellation design. And that's how they're able to offer such high spatial resolution imagery.   Craig Macmillan  15:44  Just real quick, I want to try understand this, you have x units, and they're spaced apart from each other in their orbit.   Katie Gold  15:52  That's my understanding. So remember, I'm the plant pathologist here I just usethis stuff. So that's my understanding is that the physicists, you know, and NASA speak, they classify us into three categories. They've got applications, like myself, I use data for something, you have algorithms, which is like I study how to make satellite, talk to the world, right, like, make useful data out of satellite. And then there's hardware people, right, they design the satellite, that's their whole life. And I'm on the other side of the pipeline. So this is my understanding of how this works. But yes, they have slightly different orbits, but they talk to each other very, very like intimately so that the data products are unified.   Craig Macmillan  16:33  Got it. But there's also other satellites that you're getting information from data from.   Katie Gold  16:37  Yes, yeah. So now kind of going on to the other side of things. So Planet Labs has lesser spectral resolution, they have four to eight, maybe 10 bands is the most that you can get from them. We're looking towards NASA surface biology and geology data. And we use NASA's Avaris instrument suite, the family suite, that includes next generation, as well as brand new Avaris three, and this stands for the Airborne, Visible and Infrared Imaging Spectrometer. Now, this is an aircraft mounted device, but this is the sort of sensor that we'll be going into space. Additionally, we're just starting to play around with data from the new NASA satellite called Emit. Emit is an imaging spectrometer that was initially designed to study dust emission. So like, tell us what the dust is made out of where it's coming from. But they've opened up the mask to allow its collection over other areas. And Emit has outstanding spectral resolution, and about 60 meter spatial resolution. It's based on the International Space.   Craig Macmillan  17:32  Station. It's located on the International Space Station?   Katie Gold  17:36  Yes, yeah. And that actually impacts how its imagery is collected. So if you take a look at a map of Emit collections, there are these stripes across the world. And that's because it's on the ISS. So it only collects imagery wherever the ISS goes. And that's a little bit different from this idea of constellation architecture, have these free living satellites floating through orbit and talking to each other.   Craig Macmillan  17:56  Are there other things like Landsat 7, Landsat 8?   Katie Gold  18:02  Oh, we're on Landsat 9 , baby!   Craig Macmillan  18:04  Oh, we're on Landsat 9 now. Cool.   Katie Gold  18:05  Yeah. Yeah, Landsat 9 was successfully launched. I'm really excited about its data.   Craig Macmillan  18:10  And it's coming in?   Katie Gold  18:11  Just to my understanding, yes, so we don't use Landsat and Sentinel data as much otherwise, our focus is on that spectral resolution, but Landsat 9 and its its partner from the European Space Agency's Sentinel 2, they're truly the workhorses of the agricultural monitoring industry. Without those two satellites, we would be in a very different place in this world.   Craig Macmillan  18:32  Right, exactly. Now, you said that your work is funded partially or all by NASA?   Katie Gold  18:37  Yes, partially.   Craig Macmillan  18:38  So partially, so what is the relationship there?   Katie Gold  18:40  So before I started with Cornell, I was hired by Cornell while I was still a graduate student, and as part of their support for my early career development, they sponsored a short postdoc for me a fellowship, they called it I got to stay with a faculty fellow feel better about myself at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, where my graduate co advisor Phil Townsend had a relationship with so I spent nine months fully immersed in JPL. People think of JPL is like, you know, the rocket launchers, which they are, but they also study, you know, like some of those phase out and go out into the world. But some of the things they launched turn around and study the Earth, and they had the carbon and ecosystem cycling group there. So I was able to work with them, as well as the imaging spectroscopy group for nine months. And it completely changed my entire life just opened up the world to me about what was possible with NASA data, what was coming for potential use of NASA data. And it really changed the trajectory of my career. So I made connections, made friends got my first graduate student from JPL, that have truly defined my career path. So I work very closely with NASA, originating from that relationship, as well as I'm the pest and disease risk mitigation lead for the newly established domestic agriculture consortium called NASA Acres. So this is NASA's most recent investment in supporting domestic agriculture. Through this consortium we're funded to continue some of our research myself and my good colleague, Yu Jiang who's an engineer who builds me my robots. It's confounding our work continuously, as well as giving us the opportunity to try to expand our approach to other domains through interactions, one on one, collaborations with other researchers and importantly work with stakeholders. And this consortium, the Acres consortium is led by my colleague, Dr. Alyssa Woodcraft, based at the University of Maryland.   Craig Macmillan  20:20  Going back to some of the things that you mentioned earlier, and I think I just didn't ask the question at the time, how often does the satellite travel over any particular point on Earth?   Katie Gold  20:32  So it depends on the type of satellite design. Is it the big one satellite sort of design? Or is it constellation? Or the ISS, right? Like they think the ISS orbits every 90 minutes, something like that? So it really depends, but their satellites crossing us overhead every moment. I think at night, if you ever look up into the night sky, and you see a consistent light, just traveling across the world, not blinking. That's a satellite going overhead.   Craig Macmillan  20:59  Wow, that's amazing. Actually, are there applications for this technology on other crops?   Katie Gold  21:04  Oh, certainly. So yeah. Oh, absolutely. So the use of this technology for understanding vegetative chemistry was really trailblaze by the terrestrial ecologist, in particular, the forest ecologist because it's a, you know, it's how you study things at scale, unlike the vineyards would have nice paths between them for researchers like myself, and you know, us all to walk between forests are incredibly difficult to navigate, especially the ones in more remote locations. So for the past two decades, it really spear spearheaded and trailblaze this use, and then I work with vineyards for the most part, I'm a grape pathologist, I was hired to support the grape industry, they saw the research I was doing, they said, great, keep doing it in garpes. So I'm a reformed potato and vegetable pathologist, I like to say, but there's no reason at all why the work I'm doing isn't applicable to other crops. I just happened to be doing it in grape, and I happen to really adore working with the wine and grape industry.   Craig Macmillan  21:54  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That, it totally makes sense. How is this translating are going to translate for growers into grower practices?   Katie Gold  22:02  That's a great question. So the idea is that by trailblazing these functionalities, eventually, we'll be able to partner with commercial industry to bring this to growers, right. We want these this utility to be adopted for management intervention. But there's only so much one academic lab alone can do and the my role in the world is to trailblaze the use cases and then to partner with private industry to bring it to the people at scale. But the hope is that, you know, I want every venue manager to be looking at aerial images of their vineyards. Every day, right? I have a vision of interactive dashboards, maps of informed risk. One day, I want to have live risk maps informed by remote sensing. And I want every vineyard manager to be as familiar with their aerial view of their vines as they are with that side view of their vines. Right. And I think we're getting there sooner than you realize we're really at the precipice of this unprecedented era of monitoring or monitoring ability, right? And I'm really excited about what it will hold for management.   Craig Macmillan  23:02  And so you must have cooperators I'm guessing.   Katie Gold  23:05  Oh, I do. Yes. I've wonderful cooperators.   Craig Macmillan  23:08  At this stage. It sounds like we're still kind of in a beta stage.   Katie Gold  23:13  Oh, yes, very much in the beta stage.   Craig Macmillan  23:15  So I'm guessing that you're looking at imagery and spotting areas that would suggest that there's some kind of a pathology problem, and then you're going on ground truthing it?   Katie Gold  23:27  So yes, and no, it's more of a testbed sort of case study. We have nine acres of pathology vineyards here at Cornell, Agrotech, and Geneva, New York. And then we do partner with cooperators. We have wonderful cooperators based out in California, as well as here in New York. But those are for more on testbed sort of thing. So we're not just monitoring vineyards, and like watching them and say, Ooh, the spot appears here. We're doing more of a case studies where we intentionally go out and ground truth, then build those links between the imagery because we're not quite there yet, in terms of having this whole thing automated, we're still building those algorithms building that functionality. Now we've established proof of concept. You know, we know this works. So we're working on the proof of practicality, right? Building robust pipelines, ones that are that are resilient to varying environmental geographic conditions, right, different crop varieties resilient to confounding abiotic stress, that one drives us nuts. So that's the stage that we're at, but our collaborators and our industry stakeholders who partner with us. Without them the sort of work I do just simply would not be possible. And I'm extremely grateful for their part.   Craig Macmillan  24:29  So what, what is next, what's next in the world of Katie Gold and in the world of hyperspectral plant pathology?   Katie Gold  24:34  What's next for me is in a week, I'm boarding an airplane to go to Europe for a jaunt. I'm giving two international keynotes at plant pathology conferences about methods but what I really see as next for me is I really want to see the tools that technologies the approach that my group is using, percolate through the domain of plant pathology. We're such a small discipline, there's only about 2000 of us Around the world, in plant pathology, and you know, there's not even 10, great pathologist in this country, I can name every single one of them if you wanted me to. And I think I've got their number and my phone, really, I strongly believe we're at the precipice of such an exciting era in plant pathology, due to the availability of these imagery, these data streams, just simply an unprecedented era. And it will be a paradigm shift in how we ask and answer questions about Plant Pathology, because for the first time, we have accessible, accurate imagery that we can use to study plant disease at the scale at which it occurs in the field in real time. So I want to see these ideas percolate through the skill sets adopted, taken up and embraced and it we're seeing that start, you know, we're seeing that start, there's really excitement in plant pathology, about the use of remote sensing about GIS and that skill set in its value to our discipline. But I'd really like to see that expand. I think I am the first ever plant pathologist to receive funding from NASA Earth Science Division. When I started at JPL, they would introduce me as a disease ecologist, because no one had ever heard of plant pathology. And my wonderful colleague at JPL, Brian Pavlik, who's a JPL technologist, when we started working together, he had never once been into a vineyard. He didn't know about Plant Pathology, he was the one that called me a disease ecologist. And recently, I heard him explain the disease triangle to someone, which is, of course, the fundamental theory of plant pathology. And I was just so proud. But it also really represented this real excitement for me this embrace this acknowledgement of the challenges we face in plant pathology in these domains that otherwise have not heard of us, right and beyond the USDA, funding from NASA, just awareness from these other organizations, excitement from engineers, AI experts about solving plant disease problems. It's truly invigorating and exciting to me. That's where I see you going next. And I'm really excited about the future.   Craig Macmillan  26:51  There was one thing that you could say to grape growers on this topic, what would it be?   Katie Gold  26:58  Oh, that's such a great question. There's so much that I want to say.   Craig Macmillan  27:01  One thing, Katie.   Katie Gold  27:04  I would say your data is valuable and to be aware of how you keep track of your data, that the keeping track of your data, keeping your data organized, keeping, just having reproducible organized workflows will enable you to make the most out of these forthcoming technologies. It will enable you to calibrate it will enable you to train these technologies to work better for you, but your data is valuable, don't give it away to just anyone and to be aware of it.   Craig Macmillan  27:33  I agree wholeheartedly. And I think that applies everything from how much time it takes to leaf an acre of ground. And how much wood you are removing when you prune to when and how much water you're applying. Data is gold.   Katie Gold  27:49   Data is gold.   Craig Macmillan  27:50  It takes time and energy.   Katie Gold  27:52  Institutional knowledge. For example, my field research manager Dave Combs has been doing this job for over 25 years, I inherited him from my predecessor, and he trained our robot how to see disease in its imagery. And the goal of our robots is not to replace the expertise like Dave, but to preserve them right to preserve that 25 years of knowledge into a format that will live beyond any of us. So I see keeping track of your data keeping track of that knowledge you have, you know, you know, in your vineyard where a disease is going to show up first, you know your problem areas, keeping track of that in an organized manner, annotating your datasets. I'm starting to adopt GIS in a way just simply like, here are my field boundaries, even simply just taking notes on your in your data sets that are timed and dated. I think it's incredibly important.   Craig Macmillan  28:38  Where can people find out more about you and your work?   Katie Gold  28:41  Well, so you can visit my Web website or I've got a public Twitter page where you can see me retweet cool things that I think are cool. I tweet a lot about NASA I tweet a lot about Greek disease. If you want to see pictures of dying grapes come to my Twitter page, as well as Cornell regularly publishes things about me.   Craig Macmillan  28:57  Fantastic.   Katie Gold  28:58  So be sure to Google Katie Gold Cornell.   Cornell that's the key. Yeah, Katie go to Cornell or you might get an unwelcome surprise.   Craig Macmillan  29:04  And we have lots of links and stuff on the show page. So listeners you can go there. I want to thank our guest today.   Unknown Speaker  29:13  Thank you so much for having me, Craig. This has been wonderful.   Craig Macmillan  29:16  Had Katie Gould, Assistant Professor of rape pathology at Cornell agritech campus of Cornell University.    Nearly Perfect Transcription by https://otter.ai

In this podcast interview with my friend and colleague Enrique Rubio, founder of Hacking HR, we speak about the renaissance and rebirth of HR.  I am renaming the time we are in as the Human Renaissance.  In this interview we speak about how to build a people first culture where people and business are intertwined and how to optimize for both by investing in self care and well being.  We talk about the important role of conscious leadership skills and which ones are needed to build the foundation of the awakened company and world.  Lastly, we speak to the role of HR in addressing burnout and some possible solutions to implement for a thriving organizational culture.    Episode Links: Hacking HR October Summit Registration Link Enrique Rubio LinkedIn Shine Podcast Interview- "What are the most needed leadership skills to create a healthy organizational culture in 2024?" SHINE Links: Thank you for listening. Want to build a high trust, innovative, and inclusive culture at work? Sign up for our newsletter and get the free handout and be alerted to more inspiring Shine episodes  Building Trust Free Gift Carley Links: LinkedIn Consultation Call with Carley Book Carley for Speaking Leading from Wholeness Learning & Development Carley's Book Executive Coaching with Carley   Well Being Resources: Inner Game Meditations Inner Game Leadership Assessment Social:  LinkedIn IG Website — https://www.carleyhauck.com Shine Podcast Page   IMPERFECT SHOW NOTES   Carley Hauck  0:10   Hi, my name is Carley Hauck and I am host of the shine podcast. This podcast has been flickering strong since May 2019. I began the podcast due to all the research I was conducting. In interviews with organizational leaders, lead scientists, academic researchers and spiritual teachers for my new book shine, ignite your inner game to lead consciously at work in the world. I wrote my book to inspire a new paradigm of conscious leadership and business that was in service of a higher purpose to help humans flourish, and regenerate our planet. The podcast focuses on the science and application of conscious inclusive leadership, the recipe for high performing teams and awareness practices that you can cultivate to be the kind of leader our world needs now. I will be facilitating two to three episodes a month. And before I tell you about the theme of our season, please go over to Apple podcasts, hit the subscribe button on shine or go to your favorite podcast platform carrier. That way you don't miss one episode. Thank you. This season is going to be focused on what leadership skills are most needed to create a healthy organizational culture. Leadership and manager effectiveness has been deemed the number one priority for HR and 23. And every person listening whether you have a formal leadership title or not, you are a leader. We all have the responsibility to lead around something that we care about whether it's at home with our family, and our communities, and or in the workplace. I believe in you. And I am so delighted to share with you such an incredible group of people and interviews that I have gathered for this season. I handpick every single guest based on their embodiment of conscious, inclusive leadership and the positive impact they're making. I am delighted you're here. And onto the podcast. Hello, Shine listeners. I am so excited to introduce the first interview of season six. And are you gay Rubio? Enrique, thank you so much for being here. Enrique Rubio  2:57   Carley, thank you so much for inviting me and being your first guest on your new system. I am super excited about the conversation we are about to have Carley Hauck  3:09   need here. And I'm gonna give a little light to our friend Sue Olson, who likely will listen to this Sue, thank you so much for encouraging this connection. It has already been meaningful and fruitful. And I'm sure it will continue to bear gifts. Unknown Speaker  3:28   I agree with you. Hello, so. Carley Hauck  3:33   So Enrique, please tell me and our listeners, why you love HR. What is it about HR? And for folks that may not know what HR stands for? It means human resources, which is like, why did we give it that name? Humans are not resources? No, I'll let you go forward with that. Enrique Rubio  3:56   Yeah, well, it's a story of to me of believing that as a function as a business function. We have impact both on business people and society in general. And this is the way I think about it. Right. And I thought about this question when you sent it to me before in preparation for the conversation today. And think about it in these terms. For most organizations, for every HR person there is there are about 250 to maybe 500 or six 600 employees. So that means that if the relation was direct, every person who works in HR is impacting the lives of anywhere between 250 and 600. People imagine the kind of power that you hold to both either or to either positively or negatively impact the lives of these folks, right. So if you do great work in HR, and I am hoping that you do it will be the right conditions for people to feel that they can find an outlet for their talents, their creativity, their passion, their voice, their purpose at work, where they find joy and happiness, where they come to work excited about the change they are making in the world and not just making some stakeholders or shareholders richer than they were before. But if you are building that kind of organization, as an HR person, then you are making anywhere between 250 and 600 people happier than they would be otherwise. So the reason why I love HR is sort of twofold, right? One one current state and one future state current status. I think we care a lot about the work that we do. We care a lot about the people that we're working with our organizations, our leaders, and we're not perfect. So there may be listeners saying yes, but my experience with HR was not positive. And that's true. And that may be true. My experience with some salespeople wasn't positive, my experience with some customer, people were mostly positive, my experience with some, I don't know, residential management people wasn't positive, right. But that doesn't mean that the function as a whole and that everybody in that function, wouldn't want to create a positive kind of environment for you. So reason number one is that we do care. And we have such a powerful opportunity to create good impact and change the world from HR today. And the second reason is more aspirational, right? We are the only function that sits at the intersection of People Operations and Business Operations. When you look at all the other functions, most of them are purely business, even when they work it out from like marketing or sales or it or legal, whatever it is. They are mostly business operations, we are at the intersection of business and people operations. And I fully believe that the magic of building great workplaces making people's lives better of creating better societies, and a better world accordingly, as happens at that intersection. That's what that magic happens. And we are the only ones from a from a business standpoint, sitting in that intersection of business and people. So aspirationally I love HR, because we can make such a such an incredible impact and leave such an incredible legacy by working it out very well, while we sort of deliver what we need to deliver at this intersection of people and business operations. So I love HR because we we care for all people and organizations and business matter, and aspirationally because we can truly make an impact and change the world from our small area of influence and impact in the organizations where we work. So that's that's the way I see it. Carley Hauck  7:44   I love that. Thank you so much for your passion. Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree, the microcosm of work is where you have such an interesting mix of people that come together, work together, collaborate, that might never ever meet otherwise, from all over the world, especially in this remote, cross functional, hybrid kind of way that we're working and sometimes completely remote. And I believe that if we can use business as the lever to create healing, and this is the microcosm, we get to kind of really create, you know, different conditions that can translate to the greater world. And so you you said impact, but what you need is a positive impact, how can business really be best for the world, that's what I heard in your tone and in your voice. And I think it is the responsibility and the opportunity of business. And you're right, HR is kind of the belly, the heart that allows business to move in that direction. So we spent, Enrique Rubio  8:52   we spent we spend anywhere between a third and 40% of our lifetimes at work doing something that has to do with work, whether it is for ourselves or in a company with other people or alone, that's a significant amount of time considering that probably the one of the other thirds is sleeping, right. So so when you think about spending a third of your life at work, the impact that whatever happens at work has on you is extraordinary, is exceptional. So when you know you can you can go into directions, work can break you, or what work can lift you up, but we should understand that that 30% of our lifetimes is spent at work will definitely and does make a difference on people whether whether on the positive or on the negative side. So we have to choose from not only from an HR standpoint, but as a US business. We have to choose to one these folks that we are employing right now to have a better life not just with what we're paying them, but in general beyond just the financial transaction of us. paying them for the work that they're given give back, Carley Hauck  10:02   because it impacts how they're showing up at home is what you're saying society and society for sure. And, you know, I know you're familiar with this research, but the two people that have the biggest influence on your mental and emotional well being is your boss at work, and your partner at home. Yeah, those are the two that you have the most interaction with throughout the day. And so I know that we're gonna get into leadership and manager effectiveness, because it is the number one priority for HR and 23. But I see it being the number one priority for many years to come, because we haven't cracked that code. But before we go into that, tell me about hacking HR, this incredible community that you have developed. Tell me how that got started? And what's the current phase of it? And where do you Where are you holding the vision for it? Enrique Rubio  11:00   Yeah, well, thank you for that question. And yes, I am the founder of a global learning community for HR people called Hacking HR. And what we do is we bring together 1000s of people around the world to be part of our learning programs to build community to connect with each other. And we do it the two pillars, the two foundations of what we do, our number one community, bringing people together and helping them make connections with each other, building meaningful relationships. And you can tell, you know, the person who connected us is somebody that he connected with from somebody else. So now we are for, you know, in this, in this world connected and enjoying are enjoying each other. And this wouldn't have been possible without hacking autonomy, maybe it could have been possible, but maybe it would have been more difficult. So it's community and it's learning and the learning, the way we do learning is by bringing practitioners of the business and the people of space to come together and share their insights, their ideas, their experiences, their whatever their stories, with all of us in the community, we are, we're very heavy on bringing practitioners to the to our learning events or learning experiences. Because well, you know, there's a lot of writing material about everything. But then you go on write and read something. And you always are left with a question. Yes, but how? Right? Well, you know, how do I do this, and we bring practitioners to share more of the how maybe their own how, but a how that can resonate with an extended community. So we've done hundreds of events for 1000s of people on LinkedIn, which is our main, sort of like social media outlet, we are one of the largest HR communities in the world. And the number one in engagement rates, that of all the HR communities that exist, we are the number one engagement rates, not by good luck, because we've been so for the past couple of years. So I think we're doing something right. And that is the way to listen, thank you, we share good content. And also, we have we have our voice, you know, we, you know, we're very respectful, and we're very kind, but we have our voice. You know, we you know, one example of this, right? I mean, I am I am I an absolute advocate of autonomy and flexibility at work, that doesn't mean that I believe that everybody should be working from home or everybody should be working from an office, I do believe that if we, if you are employing adults, we'll treat them like adults. And we share this voice unapologetically. Meaning, you know, some people don't like that we are promoting this idea of a, you know, I mean, if you don't like it, there are other communities that will probably say what you want to hear. We are more on the side of like, you know, let's expand possibilities. You know, let's think outside of the box, right, let's, let's think beyond evidence right in front of us. So that's what we're doing. Yeah, Carley Hauck  13:54   I was also gonna say it's also a very diverse community. I mean, I heard you say, there are people all over the world, but even just the panels that you have, I know you have an upcoming summit in October that we're going to talk about. The panels are very diverse, the people that are showing up and I also really love that part about the community too. Enrique Rubio  14:14   Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah, we I have made a point of honor of our work to make sure that we're building that we're bringing diverse voices to to our conversations. And diversity looks in many different ways. By the way, not only it's not only gender sexual identity is not only skin color, your credo if you believe in anything is your nationality is your background is I mean, there are people who have participated in our events, that they have a very controversial point of view about say, you know, remote work, for example, they're like, No, I think everybody has to come to the office, and they express with respect and everybody else respects them. They spread as expressed their their points of view, and we all end up either agreeing or disagreeing. In by understanding something that we may not have known be known before. So the diversity, the way we embrace inclusivity and diversity as, let's make sure that we bring as many diverse voices to the table that they are heard with respect and kindness. And that simultaneously, they hear us and see and respect other voices as well. And I care less about us agreeing on what we're talking about, than about respect, and kindness and compassion toward each other. Unfortunately, there has never been an instance in our community, Never, not even once, in the six years that I've been doing this, that anybody has said, um, you know, jumping out of this, you know, some whatever, because I don't feel respected. You know, it'd be more along the lines of like, a, you know, I don't agree with you for this. And, and I promote that, you know, I promote that safe space for people to say, I don't agree with that, for this, and this and that, and that's totally fine. So yeah, we have Carley Hauck  15:59   to disagree, right, you need to be respecting Enrique Rubio  16:01   each other unkind. I mean, talk about the state of our world. I mean, it's so messed up. I mean, it's so messed up. Because weak is like, we can hear any, anything that we're saying, if we, the moment you say something that I don't agree with, immediately, I am blocked, I am there with you, I'm looking at you, you're saying I see your mouth moving, but I am not listening anymore. Because you said something that I disagree with. And I wonder why, you know, I mean, we're never going to solve problems that way, let alone get together to, you know, have a positive impact on each other. So anyway, diversity for all as, you know, in every sense of the word beyond, you know, what can be considered traditionally, diversity, like, you know, the, the color of your skin, where you come from, and, you know, your gender and whatnot, it is also, you know, the kinds of things that you are sharing with us in the community. Carley Hauck  16:52   So I'm, I mean, I know, we have a bunch of questions, and I'm gonna keep us on time. But I have to pivot here, because I feel I feel really intrigued about how you've created this. So psychological safety is something that I've been studying and I is one of the very first things that I do when I am assessing a team or a company. And I believe that it is the foundation that really needs to be prioritized first, but it's not easy to do. So I feel curious, how have you been able to cultivate this and have six years of this safe space? Because that's, that's pretty magical. We can say that that's happening on Twitter or Facebook. So yeah, tell me more. Enrique Rubio  17:40   I think it was like about three years ago, we set something on LinkedIn. And some people said, This is no right for you to say, and I can remember what it was. I don't even think it was something that we said, I think we shared something by a person that we didn't know that well, as somebody was like that person. You know, it's not talking, you know, really well about women in the workplace, you know, sounds a little bit misogynistic. And this is what I did, I left the thing posted. And I said, we disagree with this. And I'm gonna leave it posted, because I want everybody to get their own impression, but I don't agree with this. And I apologize, because we made a mistake, by giving this person a voice. I'm not going to take it down right now. Because there's already a conversation going on about this, which is, which is that healthy conversation to have, by the way, when you when you miss, will you mess up? But to me, the point is that it's happened to us in six years, it's only happened to us maybe like two or three times that I've made a mistake like that. And what I do say on it, you know, I just say I'm sorry, you know, I messed up. And, and I am sorry, I'm learning. You know, there was something like like, let me give you another example, right? You talked about diversity in our panels. It was it was not always that way, about four years ago, the only kind of diversity that I was very cared about. And it's not that I just care about that. But the only the only kind of diversity that I care about when it came to the panels that I was putting together was gender diversity. So I always wanted to make sure that there were at least an equal number of female speakers than male speakers. But then everything looked white, everything looked the same. And people were like, there's nobody, you know, with a different skin color in there. And Rick, you are a Latino man. And there are no Latino, Latin X people in those panels that are no women of color. There are no people with at least a disability that they can publicly say that they have the disability. And I will say dang it. I never thought about that. And you what he said was, you are totally right about this. I thought I was doing the right thing. But obviously I'm falling short of the very things that I'm talking about. I am sorry, I messed up once again, let's move on and this will learn and now we're moving on. So I'm gonna you know is this happened like two or three times in our in our Carley Hauck  19:58   terminal past Just for a moment, because I just want to acknowledge your humility. And we're going to organize, you know, go into the recipe for what a conscious inclusive leader looks like. But one of the things that, you know, conscious leaders do is is they, they have the awareness to take responsibility for what's mine, for where I made a mistake, apologizing is fabulous. And then of course, correcting learning and growing. So bravo and reggae. Well, Enrique Rubio  20:28   you know, one thing that I gotta say, is this, right? being self aware, which is a couple of things, it is recognizing, when you've fallen short of your own promises, and the premises that you believe in, when you blatantly, you know, unintentionally make a mistake, or inadvertently make a mistake that hurts people, and then apologizing for that, that, to me is all part of this concept of self awareness. That doesn't mean that inside you, you have a little bit of pride, saying, I still have, you know, like, I still think that this was the right thing to do. But okay, I get it, right. And the way I have tried to operate in this community is just by acknowledging when I make a mistake, when we do something wrong, acknowledge that acknowledge that I may have caused pain in somebody for doing something in the wrong way. And moving on by having learned, you know, not to do the same thing again, but do it better. But, you know, I have to also acknowledge my own my own inner self, right, that that I sometimes I want to be right. And, and I recognize that I am wrong, but I still want to be right. So it's walls that you have inside yourself, right? It's, you know, which one are you feeding, but the reality is that even if you're feeding this kind war, that is that is the wolf that is telling you, you made a mistake, just apologize and move on. crumbles are falling out to the other wall saying, Yeah, but I still want to be right about this, even if I am not. So this, this matters, because sometimes we try so many leaders, and we're gonna talk about conscious leadership, right? But so many leaders try to project an image of something they are not, they try to sweep their mistakes under the short comments under the rug, instead of just saying, I messed up, I am sorry, you know, I made I made a mistake, I did something wrong, I hurt people. And this is how I am planning to move on to never let this thing happen again, and to make sure that we course correct in a different direction. But nothing, we nothing that we do. Nothing ever will take us back to the way things were before. I cannot you know, I'm not like Superman flying in the opposite direction of the rotation of the Earth, trying to, you know, go back in time, right. And I'm saying this because they watched I rewatched the movie recently. You know, like, superhero, Superman, number one, you know, with Christopher Reeve, you know, I love I love him back. But yeah, you can go back in time, all you got to do is be Yeah, show up. Yeah, recognize and own your stuff on your mistakes, say, apologize and say how you're going to be moving on from that. I love that. That's part of how we build safety in hacking HR. Carley Hauck  23:12   I was going to come back to that, but you just summarized it. Yes, that's how you created safety is that you have strong leadership, that is modeling what you want the rest of the community to showcase. And I some other piece that I wanted to bring up. And then I'd love to move into conscious leadership a little more deeply. But I know you and I are going to be speaking to the idea of this collective intelligence, and how leaders are really about leading together, you know, you're a founder, I'm a founder. But ultimately, that's a lot of responsibility. Right? And you couldn't have this community without other leaders without other people, you know, showing up in supporting you to maybe see your blind spots to help make decisions. And I really think it's again, about acknowledging I don't have all the answers. Here I am, I am human, which means I'm messy, and I'm gonna make mistakes. And I need support, you know, otherwise, I will burn out because even though you're part Superman, with all your ultra marathon running, you're not fully Superman, and I'm not Superwoman. So on that, on that thread, I open it up to any reactions, but then I'd love to move us into some conscious leadership. Enrique Rubio  24:33   Yeah, well, you know, actually, my only reaction is this. If you if you or any of your listeners go now to any of the things that we're doing hacking HR, if you didn't know that I was the founder. You wouldn't know that I was involved in this thing at all, because what I built was a platform to give other people a voice in front of our community. Yes, I put I've put a lot of energy time, effort money into building this, but we're rarely do you see me speaking in any of our own events moderating any of our events? Rarely do you see my name in anything that we do? It is it is the community, you know, even when I post something that I create myself, and and I post it on on our LinkedIn channel, I use, you know, how can HR because I want to make sure that is the brand, that is the community that is engaging in these kinds of conversations and interactions are not necessarily with me. And I love that, you know, because I think I build something that gives people the opportunity to connect with each other and expand and share and amplify their voice. And to me, that's, that's, that's, you know, ultimately, you know, part of what, what I what I wanted to do by design, you know, give other people the voice because I don't have not only do I, I don't have all the answers, I have more questions than I have answers about anything. So, so yeah, you know, that I just wanted to say that because, you know, it, I see other groups, especially in the space of HR, where it's, it feels like a cold, you know, to personality, you know, like a goal to their founder or their leader. And they gotta, you know, like, no, that's not what I want to do, you know, I mean, a different game, you know, here, I mean, a different kind of thing here. Carley Hauck  26:16   Well, then that gives it more life, because then you don't have to hold it. All right, yeah, you can, it can continue to create this, you know, this life of its own. So lovely. Well, I'd love to talk a little bit about leadership and conscious leadership, because that's what I have studied a lot in the last 10 years. It's what I wrote my book on. And I wanted to bring into this this framework that I have studied and validated. Because this framework is something that you write a lot about, ironically, before we met, I was reading, you know, hacking, HR, and just so many of the things that you speak about compassion and self awareness, and resilience and well being, I thought, I think Enrique is my brother from another mother hair. So let's, let's talk about that a little more openly. So I've distilled nine different leadership traits, that when people are cultivating these on a continuum, it actually showcases in how will they show up as a leader, how they are able to lead the business lead teams, and it actually creates more psychological safety, more trust, more empathy, more teamwork. I've, you know, really dialed in these assessments. So I know that this framework works, but I'll just read through them briefly. And then I'd love to hear which one or two do you feel like you've really honed and which ones are areas for growth for you right now. And, you know, I imagine it's, it's kind of had ranges, and you might be stronger in these right now. But maybe we're stronger in them for today, for example. So self awareness, self management, empathy, resilience, humility, we already know you've got a lot of humility, self belonging, which is including the dimensions of self love, self compassion, self forgiveness, self acceptance, physical well being and psychological well being, I really see them as being distinct, but they're interconnected. What do you think, Enrique, where are you strongest? And where do you have places for growth? And those nine, Enrique Rubio  28:40   I think, my, I think I am, you know, in a very good place, when it comes to physical Well, being a psychological well being, I think I take very good care of my body, I am a, I am a competitive runner. And I do invest a lot in in the steam feed, and I'm strong and healthy. So I try to make sure that my mind is fed with good stuff, you know, and, yeah, you know, I read the news, and I, you know, I get upset and take attendance. And I, you know, I get upset on my partner and, you know, we fight and you know, we do and my cats and we get upset at each other, but I try to, you know, make sure that I keep, you know, a good level of, of psychological well being and physical well being of course, so that's one. Resilience, I think would be probably the other one. Carley Hauck  29:39   Can I go into that a little deeper because I love to infuse this podcast with tips. We all learn from one another. So I hear you're a competitive runner. So that's one way you're really nourishing your physical body and you run in the hills in Flagstaff, which is where I went to grad school. So I think we would have met At some point, because I would have gone back there. But how else are you taking care of this of this temple? And then I'd love to hear more about how you're nurturing the mind. You're I hear you're feeding the Good Wolf. Not the bad wolf. But But how else? Enrique Rubio  30:18   Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, on the physical side is both nutrition and fitness. So I am actually a vegan. So I'm a plant based. Oh, nice. Yeah, well, I've been I've been a vegan for 15 years. And, you know, I respect what people end up eating and what they do. But I think that we need to take a very hard look at what we are putting into our bodies, right? I mean, you will not if you need an oil change for your car, you are not going to donate, you know, crap, right, you want to make sure there is good oil that gets your car, going for the long run. And we're putting crap in our bodies. So you know, sugar, alcohol, smoke, tobacco, you know, things of the kind that we know, destroy our temple, like you said before, so it is, to me it is fitness and nutrition, for the physical side of things and psychological well being, you know, it's just being aware, you know, I'm being being aware of, of the kind of things that I'm thinking about. I do have negative thoughts, I think like everybody else, and I try to remove them as soon as possible from my mind, so that they don't, you know, either way, you know, the good stuff that I think I, I have to give. So that's, that's, that's one that and I think it's more, you know, it's for people, it's an exercise of looking inward and saying, you know, am I, you know, how am I taking care of my body and my mind, right, it's this, this ultimately, the question you should be asking yourself. And then the second, the second, sort of, kind of, like quality, that I think I have, you know, perhaps hone down as best as I can is resilience, you know, it is being a founder, like you said before, and, you know, being in this work, you know, it doesn't come it's not easy, you know, and I chose a space, by the way that is very hard, you know, as HR is not easy. HR is, is tough, because we've done things in the same way for a very long time. People don't believe in HR. And, you know, there's a lot of work to do. And sometimes, you know, even though I've been doing hacking HR for six years, it's not that every that all the time I'm, I'm on a, you know, like, like an all time high inspiration, energy level, right? Sometimes I'm like, to hell with this man. I'm just, I'm just quitting this and then doing something else. And then the next day is like, calm down. Yeah, you know, yesterday wasn't a good day. But today, it's gonna be a good day, you know, I'm always, you know, like, something happens that I'm like, alright, you know, I mean, this, this came up out of the blue, and it made my day, right, like, you know, sometimes I'm upset about something. And I don't know why the universe, you know, has a person sending me an email saying, like, and Rica, thank you so much, because this event was the best event that I've ever done in my life, but whatever. And I'm like, alright, well, maybe I'm upset about yesterday, whatever it was, but this person made up made my day today with this one common, right. And I think that's how I've built resilience, right? It's knowing that not every day will look the same, some days will be great, some other days will be really bad. And for the most part, you're going to be moving up and down. And as long as you believe in your long term vision about in my case, building up large community and bringing people together, as long as you believe in that, you know, that the doubt of today, you know, will turn into an app tomorrow. And that's the way it's gonna go. Carley Hauck  33:48   Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. So physical Well, being psychological well, being, resilience, having that growth mindset, and one of the questions that I like to ask for myself when things you know, don't go in the way that I would like, I always say, Well, how is this for me? How is this for me right now? Which in another way is how do I learn from this? Yeah, I see this expression on your face. What does that mean? Enrique Rubio  34:18   You know, I think all of us, you know, have gone through through some stuff in life. And, you know, let me give you one example of this. Right. I, in one of my last corporate jobs, I had a boss who was you know, there are bosses that are bad, but they are not evil. They are just bad bosses. Right? I mean, they are they don't know, Carley Hauck  34:40   they're messy people leading this horrible leading from their own hurt. Yeah, but Enrique Rubio  34:45   but there are there are people that truly go out of their way to harm all their evil, and we can deny that there are evil people in the world, even when you see things, you know, with a more kind of like positive, you know, standpoint. plans and I had a Yeah. And I had a boss that was evil, you know, he, you know, he would go out of his way to harm people around him. And when he quit that job, took me some time to detox from from that environment, because it was a very toxic environment, but it took me some time. But then he left. And I am left with this right now, I know that I know some of the qualities that I would love to see in great leaders. And it's like, it's like, you know, it's like a blank canvas that you're painting. And for now, all I have painted is like, maybe one tree over here, the sun over there, you know, maybe a couple of people over here. So it's, there's a lot of things that have to paint on the what great leadership looks like, right, I have, I still have to add a lot of touches to it. But I already completed the paint of what I think of leadership looks like. And I completed the paint, because I went through that. And whenever I think of him, I think of that very dark Canvas, you know, with with a lot of, you know, negativity going in there. And what I tell people is like, you can have all these qualities to be a great leader. But these are the ones that I know for sure would make you a crappy leader. And that's what he learned from that experience. So the way you know, I just tried as much as they can to make sure that every experience for me turns even even if not at the moment, whenever it happens, that it turns into something where that that can help me grow, you know, that can, even if it doesn't help me grow, that becomes a story. You know, that becomes an experience that I can share with others going forward. So no, this is not always possible. And especially it's almost impossible in the moment in the heat of the moment. But you get there talking about my cats, by the way that I talked about before. You don't know about this, but I rest I think I mentioned to you in our preparation call, I rescued four kittens that were left behind my house by their mom, I don't know what happened. I've never been a pet person. I've never been a cat person. And these four kittens stole my heart. I don't know how I'm gonna do when they grow. But I'm not here. For anybody listening. I'm just showing two Akerley, one of them on the screen. One is Laurie. And they are about six weeks old and they are the most loving beings ever. So I just showed him on the screen because all of them can now climb up on my chair when I'm working and they just lay down on my lap. So anyway, just wanted to show Laurie Do you share Laurie Look at her. She's incredibly beautiful. She looks like like a tiger with blue eyes. So stop. What are you sure on the on the promo for this podcast? Carley Hauck  37:44   Have a picture of Enrique and Lori. Did I say her name? Right. Enrique Rubio  37:48   Laurie? Yeah. Laurie as my girlfriend's name. Yeah. So okay, I named her after Laurie. Carley Hauck  37:54   Cute, cute. Well, thank you, I can completely relate to your story around, you know, having this I like to call them unconscious, right, because we have parts of ourselves that are conscious in their unconscious. But if we're leading from the unconscious parts that are hurting, and it sounds like in this particular case, this person was probably conscious of some of the ways that they were going out of their way to hurt. But there's always ways that were being interpreted, that we don't realize and I studied a lot of unconscious leaders to be able to distill what is a conscious leader personally and professionally. And that could be a whole, a whole other conversation. But I really appreciated what you were sharing and just to kind of jump in with you. I also really focus on my psychological and physical well being and without it. I just see well being as the foundation I'm also a vegan. I've not been a vegan as long as you have but in my book, because I'm so passionate about this being something that we all need to be really practicing eating less meat or being completely vegan. I amplify three different leaders and companies that are vegan based companies. Just ag Josh Tetrick is is one of the leaders I highlight in my book shine and then rebel. When Cheryl Laughlin was the CEO and rebel is a complete pally plant based superfood. I think they're using almost all recyclable plastic bottles now as well. They were definitely on that on that pivot when I interviewed her like five years ago for the book. And then the other one is, is David Young, who has Omni foods, which is actually based out of Hong Kong. So wanted to get a diverse landscape but all of those companies have gone like rocket, the style, startup pace and it's just really incredible to see The impact that they're making in the world because they were they were very small when I chose them to be leaders in the book. And also, just to give a little sneak peek, Dan Buettner, who was a friend and colleague who came out recently with a Netflix series on Blu. So he's actually going to be on the podcast, and he's fantastic. So Dan, Dan is going to be sharing more about the research and I love this research. And it's just, I hope it really ignites and amplifies people to, to take care of their health, because if we're eating more in attunement with nature, and what's gonna support all beings to thrive, then the planet's gonna get healthier. And for that we get to steward her better. Enrique Rubio  40:49   Yeah, it's interesting that we're going back to the basics in so many different ways. Right, the, you know, the basics of leadership, the basics of being a good human being the basics of, you know, how we eat, and our relationship to the, to the planet is, which is funny, because sometimes are not enough for me actually, it's ironic, that sometimes I see some people coming up with like, you know, we got to do things in this way. And I'm like, Yeah, you know, like Native Americans, for example, have known that for 10,000 years, you know, ancient civilizations of, you know, the, you know, this Saharan, northern part, or the, or the Asian continent have known this for 1000s of years, right. So we're not, we're just like rebranding things that we've known for a long time. And, you know, I mean, hopefully, that works. But we just have to acknowledge that some of these ideas of reconnecting to nature to food, even the blue zones that Dan talks about, you know, this is ancient knowledge, you know, I mean, it's been live for so long, not because they read, you know, you know, health magazine, you know, printed in New York, is because they've done this for a long time, and they know how it works. Carley Hauck  42:04   It's like we fell asleep, right? We were we were feeding the bad wolf. We were well, we weren't listening to our wisdom we were, we were getting focused on all the marketing, all the advertising that's telling us to go outside of ourselves to find happiness by buying this by buying that, which is, which is not true. So, gosh, we could we could talk about lots of things. But let me let me move us back to I would really love to talk more about the expectations for leadership. Because as we're hacking HR, and as we as a function, human resources, how do we change that word, but we'll get into that later. Human Renaissance? Let's do that. So when we think about are we setting leaders up? I think about this a lot, because I really want to solve for the leadership gap. And are we actually setting leaders up to succeed? Are expectations too high of them? And do they actually have the skill sets to be conscious? Because, you know, if, if we're stressed, we all are stressed? We all sometimes feel overextended, overwhelmed, it's really hard to lead from that wise place, conscious place. If we don't actually have time to rest and recover if if we don't have these compassionate, safe spaces, to be vulnerable to say, oops, made a mistake here. What do you think about that? Enrique Rubio  43:45   We have built a self reinforcing cycle of bullshit. And I'm sorry for using that word. Carley Hauck  43:54   By the way, tend to post you can even use the F word here. It's all good. Enrique Rubio  43:58   Really. All right. Well, thank you. Because I use a lot of words like that. I like it. You know, I don't know why I feel like you know, they give you give it a little bit of a flavor to the conversation. But I think we've we've created a cycle, a self reinforcing cycle of bullshit, where leaders demand more from people that is unsustainable and unhealthy. People demand more from leaders, which is unsustainable and unhealthy. The shareholders do the same thing. Wall Street is doing the same thing. And and then nobody or just a handful of people not but mostly nobody, at least at a high high level, is saying, Stop a stop for one day. Stop this madness. And let's find out where the cycle is reinforcing itself with with all this bullshit. This happened during the pandemic, the pandemic was an opportunity for us to reset. The pandemic basically told us that we are not in control of most things that we thought we were in control off And it pretty much said to us, you have to stop, stop the cycle. And yes, it didn't have anything to do with, you know, also stopping the cycle at all, it was something completely different. But it gave us an opportunity to reset. What did we do with that awful opportunity, but ended up being an opportunity, what do we do with it? We operate it in a very different way from 2020 to 2020, like the end of 2021, couple of years being more human, more kinder, more compassionate, more understanding, more loving, towards each other Carley Hauck  45:31   planes as much as much writing Yeah, what Enrique Rubio  45:35   happening, what happened in 2022, we went back to normal, we are supposed to enter into a recession, let's lay off all these people, let's force them back into the office, they are not beat. So it's all the same jargon, the same self reinforcing cycle that we had, before the pandemic, that the pandemic gave us an opportunity to reset. So the truth is, I don't even know what the take for us to say, we have to stop this madness, the exploit exploitation of people, the exploitation of the planet, the exploitation of animals, we have to stop this madness is just that is so hard, you know, like you don't know where to begin this. I see the newer generations, the younger generations been way more socially engaged, and more socially conscious about what they do to their own bodies, what they do to the planet, and what they do to each other. And I am hoping that we can use that as leverage to reset. Carley Hauck  46:34   Thank you for sharing all of that. I wholeheartedly agree. And I, one of my mentors who wrote the foreword for my book, Lynne twist, who's a big steward of planet, she, when I first heard her talk, she would say we have to hospice out these old systems and structures that don't work. So I feel like we're still in this space that things are crumbling, we're creating the new foundation. But like you said, these this younger generation, you know, the the Gen z's, the millennials, they are in the the biggest, or they are the biggest work force that we have. And the more that they're either building companies, starting companies, or they're just speaking out about what they don't want. Yeah, that makes the Foundation have to be rebuilt. Enrique Rubio  47:28   Yeah. Well, you know, there's scientific philosopher, his name is Thomas Kuhn, an American philosopher in the 1960s, he wrote a book called The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. And yes, you know, lots of claims in the book and lots of backlash about different things about how scientific revolutions and the change from one way of doing things to another actually happen. But this is ultimately what he said. He said, Well, you have a theory in place, and there that theory cannot explain any more, what you are observing in the real world, meaning the theories is falling short, to, to explaining what you are observing, a crisis happens, a revolution emerges. And a new theory has to take place, that that includes the old, and also the new. And I think right now we are at an inflection point where we're going through a social or political or financial crisis of sorts, where we are like a snake that is ditching the old skin and trying to, you know, do the do new, right. We are, there are many of us that are trying to ditch the old skin, you know, we're trying to ditch the old models that we know don't work anymore, that are very powerful groups of people that are clinging to those old models. And we know they don't work. But I think eventually we are going to be at a place where we are like, alright, this is the new, we're not forgetting the old. We're just embracing the new and I'm hoping that we can get there. Carley Hauck  48:57   Well, I would love to continue this conversation. There's so many so many threads I'd love to follow up with. But for our time today, I know that you're going to be trying to solve for some of this, and hacking HR. This is where this community this collective intelligence is coming together. And you have a summit that is starting in October, and I'm going to be part of that summit. I'm so excited. I'll be on one of the panels. Enrique Rubio  49:24   But we have we actually have a lot of events coming up. You know, in October, we have the every month we do a hacking HR series. And next month, which is you know, in October so we're recording this at the end of September. Next month, we have the October series and it's called Hacking October series. The soft is a strategy so we're going to be talking about how soft quote unquote soft skills impact business performance and strategy and you know, productivity and results and whatnot. So I am super excited about the conversation because it pertains to people to culture, to soft skills and all that? Carley Hauck  50:05   Well, I will be putting a link in the show notes because it's free people people can join for free. And the panel that I'll be on is about building a foundation of mental well being and adaptability and corporate culture on October 17. And we kind of spoke to some of that today. So I have lots of ideas to share. Enrique, this was so amazing. Is there anything else you want to leave our listeners with or anything that you'd love to have them? You know, see, so they can find you Enrique Rubio  50:35   join us on hugging HR on LinkedIn, follow me on LinkedIn, and you know, just be part of the good stuff that we're talking about. Carley Hauck  50:44   Thank you so much. Unknown Speaker  50:45   Thank you. Thank you so much. Carley Hauck  50:48   Before we end, these are some questions I have been pondering on quite a lot. And Enrique and I didn't have time to discuss on the air, but I wanted to share them aloud as inflection points with a few solutions. What are the expectations we have of leaders right now? Is the bar set too high? Based on the skill sets they have to operate from? And the conditions they are working with inside? And outside the organization? Are we equipping our leaders to meet the challenges and expectations of managing remote distributed teams with the right skill sets and the right support and resources? And lastly, how do we solve for burnout inside organizations? These are big problems that I believe everyone can come together with our collective intelligence to solve. But the way that we solve for some of them, is we invest in learning and development. Learning and Development pays dividends. In so many ways. We know that in this distributed remote workforce. It not only supports people to connect, and opportunities to grow within the company. But it supports engagement. It helps people to feel like they're being invested in their professional and their personal growth at work, which is a very high value for most employees. If you want to retain your employees, if you want to build community, you will invest in learning and development. And we need to do it in a way that gives people time to actually take advantage of the learning of the training. One idea that I'm proposing is that we empower people of all levels to block off their calendar for learning. It showcases to their team, they're in learning mode. And it could be that we offer an amount of 10 hours a month that they are devoted to learning. And this actually can be linked to what great performance looks like at the company. Leaders are learners and we all have the opportunity to be leaders as a way of solving for burnout. What do we think about enforcing a four day workweek? I know thread up which is one company I really love and had been following has implemented this, and some other companies have found great benefits to employee wellbeing. What about the idea of creating an untouchable day for everyone? Hence the benefit of a four day workweek? Let's face it with all the responsibilities of home, family and work. What if we had one extra day to just breathe, to be to enjoy? Would we show up at work in our relationships at home more resourced, more creative, with more play and well being? I imagine we would. And what do you think about implementing no meetings one day a week? How would we empower employees to also opt out of meetings if there is no agenda set? All the research shows that more meetings leads to exhaustion, lack of engagement and then more meetings. So what if we instead really empowered folks to have no meetings one day a week, and to opt out of meetings when there wasn't a clear agenda set for why they needed to attend. September is Self Care Month. And as we are still resetting, recovering from the last couple years, but even the decade before that, of not focusing on a people centered strategy, it's so important that we upskill our leaders with the resources to be able to prioritize for self care, so that they can lead themselves well, and then lead others well. This is the priority of leadership and manager effectiveness that I see now and into the near future. Leaders need to be leading together and relying on the collective intelligence and leadership of those above them, beside them and below them. This is leading its scale. And it requires a high degree of some of the conscious leadership competencies that Enrique and I spoke about before self awareness, resilience, humility, so that we can empower others, and lead together inspiring networks of teams to lead. Thank you, Enrique for joining me in this conversation and building a community where the human Renaissance professionals can come together to help solve people problems for the greatest good of organizations and the world. Do you want to grow your inner game so you can be a conscious leader at work life and in the world? Here are three ways come to the hacking HR summit in October, the link will be in the show notes. And I will be speaking with a group of wonderful leaders October 17, on the topic, cultivating resilience, building a foundation of mental well being and adaptability in corporate culture. This will be at 9am to 10am. Pacific Standard Time, go get my book, and hard copy or audiobook shine has been voted as one of the top 10 books to read and 22 I know it's 23. But if you didn't read it, and 22 Let me tell you, I wrote this book for this time. It is my legacy. And it will stand the test until we've solved for some of these big problems. And lastly, are you seeking a passionate people leader who wants to build and partner with senior leadership and the executive team on a people first culture where people and business are intertwined, and this can both thrive? I am your next great leadership hire. And I am so excited to serve the right team and company right now. If you missed the last podcast episode, I was interviewed by CEO Coco brown. You can learn more about the internal director above level role I am seeking the results I have provided to cutting edge companies as an HR consultant Learning and Leadership Development Professional, what I can contribute now. And the link of that podcast episode is in the show notes. I would love to have a conversation with you to be introduced to new opportunities and people. Thank you so much for your support. And if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends, family or colleagues. We're all in this together and sharing is caring. If you have questions, comments or topics you would like to address about the podcast or other conversations, please email me at support at Carley hauck.com And finally, thank you for tuning in and being part of this community. I have several incredible interviews coming up on the shine podcast. So make sure you're subscribed and until we meet again. Be the light and shine your light  

Summary/Time Stamps Boston upbringing and punk scene with artist Dave Sweeney. 0:06Dave Sweeney discusses his experience in the Boston punk scene and his art with host Siobhan.Dave met Siobhan through mutual friends at a bar on the island.Unknown Speaker grew up in Cohasset, Massachusetts, a blue-blooded town with summer cottages for wealthy captains of industry.Speaker started gravitating towards Boston's South End, discovering live music at Sunday matinees in the Fort Point Channel area.Punk music scene in Boston in the 80s. 5:06Unknown speaker describes how they got into punk rock music in Boston in the late 70s/early 80s, mentioning shows they attended and meeting other fans.Unknown speaker recounts a memorable encounter with a police officer who was hostile towards them and their friends at an IHOP restaurant.Unknown speaker reflects on their experience in Boston's punk scene in the 1980s, mentioning the hate towards goth and punk kids and how it was fueled by the Satanic Panic of the time.The speaker notes that despite the negative attitudes towards them, most punks were normal and were using their appearance and behavior as a way to act out their frustrations.Race, class, and identity in Boston. 10:09Siobhan grew up in Bromley Heath, a former housing project in Jamaica Plain, Boston, and now some of her childhood homes are worth millions of dollars.Siobhan's father took her on a drive through South Boston and she didn't recognize half the buildings due to new construction and gentrification.Siobhan shares her experience growing up in Boston and how she perceived the city's reputation for racism (30 words)Unknown speaker reflects on their childhood in Boston and the racial dynamics in their neighborhood, including the Metco program and interactions with white suburban kids (30 words)Private school experiences and musical career. 14:49Siobhan attended private schools in Boston, including St. Teresa's in West Roxbury and an all-girls private school in Newton.Unknown speaker attended Fessenden School in Newton, a private school known for its strict environment and emphasis on discipline.Unknown Speaker discusses their experience as a skinhead in the 1990s, mentioning their time in a ska band and their move to Minneapolis.Unknown Speaker clarifies that being a skinhead has nothing to do with race, and is instead a style based on music and old punk and reggae culture.Skinhead culture and its evolution. 20:05Siobhan and others reject the idea that skinheads are only working-class white British kids trying to emulate Jamaican style, noting that many were disaffected and felt economically disenfranchised.The fashion resurged in the mid-1970s with the punk explosion, attracting easy fodder for white nationalist groups, leading to a more militarized look and scaring people.Unknown Speaker reflects on their past association with Nazi skinheads, emphasizing the importance of anti-racism and the limitations of the skinhead subculture.The speaker highlights the diversity of individuals within the skinhead scene, including lawyers, doctors, and engineers, while emphasizing the shared values of camaraderie and music.Marriage, moving to Los Angeles, and small-town life.

Today's episode is all about understanding the crucial role of income analysis in retirement planning. We'll uncover the secrets of guaranteed income versus the uncertain stuff and shed light on the consequences of retiring without a clear income plan. Don't worry if you're feeling lost - we've got your back with practical solutions and expert guidance. Tune in and take charge of your retirement cash flow!   Important Links:  Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381 ----more---- Transcript:  Speaker 1  0:00  Welcome into another edition of the podcast. It's playing with the tax man with Tony Mauro and myself here to talk about mastering some retirement cash flow really kind of understanding income is going to be the topic conversation on the podcast this week with Tony. Who is de Moines professional alternative at tax Doctor Inc. And you can find them online at your planning proz.com at your planning proz.com What's going on, buddy? How are you?   Speaker 2  0:25  I'm good enjoying the summer? How about you?   Speaker 1  0:27  Yeah, pretty much the same. It's been a bit of wet one, though. It's been a lot of lot of rain. Yeah, down here where we're at. It's been a lot of rain. So   Speaker 2  0:32  yeah, we have not had a lot of rain. And we just got some scoring well needed. Yeah, it's funny   Speaker 1  0:37  how the country does that Right? Talk to several people all the time every week. And it's, it's always a little something different. And then whatever neck of the woods you happen to be in. So right here lately, it's just been been really wet. So our Fourth of July got kind of rained out. But that's okay. We still had a good time and with family and friends. And so everybody out for everybody else that as well. We are back here. This is for our our later July edition here. So this is our second half of July. So let's get into understanding some income. Because you know, cash is king. We've heard that Tony a million times. But in retirement incomes King right? Income is always King in retirement. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I guess it is all the time. But it's really, it's really more important, or certainly critically important in retirement. So what's kind of some scenarios that some issues that you can be looking at, if you don't really have a good clear picture of your retirement income?   Speaker 2  1:33  If you're, you know, if you're kind of DIY, and you're thinking, well, I'll just figure it out when I get there. What are some of the issues you've seen people bump into, you know, I've seen, I've seen a lot of it up this way. And some of the people that own land, and farms and whatnot can probably relate to this. But I've seen, you know, retirees come in, and they'll say, you know, I'm ready to hang it up. But I've, I've got all this land, you know, but the land itself isn't really producing any income. So while they have a lot of assets, that that asset or assets isn't really throwing off any income? I see that a lot. Yeah, yeah, I see a lot of people trying to work their retirement income from a basket of, or a portfolio of securities that they had when they were younger, and trying to kind of make shift pull money out, you know, as they need it. Because they don't have a real clear picture. In other words, most of the time, it's, you know, not income generating stocks, and they're just going to wait for prices to go up. And, you know, hopefully sell and make gains and use that when that doesn't happen, or, or it takes longer than expected. They're stuck with out income. Well, I'd like to make life app,   Speaker 1  2:36  I guess what we should do is maybe identify some potential sources of income that people might have as a retired person. So what are some examples of different places that you know, you might be able to draw income from depending on obviously your life? Right? Well,   Speaker 2  2:51  I mean, the list is long, but the easy ones are, you know, your 401 K's pensions, if you have one, IRAs, of course, Social Security. Yeah, that's the big one. Everybody knows if you have some annuities, dividends and income and interest income from either investments, or bank accounts, CDs, things like that bonds, some of you could have some other type of income, you know, maybe you're working part time, maybe you are doing a little side hustle. And you've got some income coming from that. Yeah, yeah, sure. All of those things are potentials, but the three or four biggies prior Social Security, IRAs and 401 K's.   Speaker 1  3:29  So you know, we talk often about being diversified Tony in the realm of investments. And I think that's where people's mind goes to, okay, I need to be diversified and not have too much in large cap or, you know, or something like that. But you really also want diversification of income sources. So you're not relying overly heavily on just one. And obviously, the big one here to think about is if you've not done any planning, or you've not done any savings properly, or some things happen in your own social security, either completely, or it's making most of what you need to live on. And I'll throw my mom under the bus with this, because unfortunately, that's where she's at in her life in her 80s. Now, I help her out. But you know, from her own potential standpoint, that's where she got she lost just about everything in the Oh, eight downturn, and in addition to some bad choices and things of that nature. She's on Social Security only. And that is clearly not where we want to be.   Speaker 2  4:23  That's definitely not really where you want to be. And I've seen that too. And I've seen tax clients that get to the end. And that's really it. Because at that point, you are, it's impossible to try to generate other sources of income, you know, because your timetable it's got Yeah, it's just too late, you know, and so most of these sources need to be thought out along the way. And so which, again, begs the question of, you got to you got to get a plan and you got to work the plan, which we're always talking about. And, you know, that   Speaker 1  4:52  importance of saving, you know, paying your future self right, Exactly.   Speaker 2  4:57  Yeah, I mean, that's what it isn't, you know, it's hard for to take Get a 65 year old and even if they've got a large portfolio, say of of stocks or bonds or something like that and say, well, let's, let's let's diversify a little bit and go out and buy for rentals, you know, that might not be the wisest move, because, you know, they take, even though they could throw off some income, for example, well, you know, that's actually work, you know, and they may not be the wisest of choices. But you know, for a guy that's had rentals for a long time and wants to continue to have them in retirement, you know, it's a great another source. But I do think you're right, we're really trying to aim for before we even talk about what types of earnings you're getting on them or what the income is, but the different sources, the I think the more you different sources you have the more potential to really live the retirement you want.   Speaker 1  5:43  Exactly. And that way, you're not overly reliant on any one thing, which again, is that diversification key. So let's talk about the two kinds of income in the way that most advisors, I think, probably categorize this or people have heard it, which is going to be what, what are the two kind of ways we would think about income? Well, a lot of times people think about it as guaranteed versus not guaranteed. Right. And, you know, I like to phrase it a you know, on the guaranteed side is guaranteed for as long as you live. So security first. Yeah, that's the first security.   Speaker 2  6:19  yeah. If you have an annuity and you annuitize it, you know, it kind of becomes like a social security payment. It's annuitize.   Speaker 1  6:26  So security check even say annuity on the top of it, I think. I think it does, yeah, anyway.   Speaker 2  6:31  So those are the two, you know, and if you do and are lucky enough to have an old fashioned pension that works the same way, you know, it's a monthly income stream for life. So if you've got those, those are kind of, you can't make changes to them. You know, I mean, you get x and that's it. It's over when generally,   Speaker 1  6:49  yeah, whatever you like, whenever you turn on your Social Security, you know, that's your that's what you're locked into that kind of, that's what you're like, yeah, and you're not guaranteed is that's going to be the that's gonna be our personal stuff, right?   Speaker 2  7:00  As we all have personal stuff, your IRAs 401 K savings, you know, pretty much everything else that you're kind of hoping to use in retirement, and I say non guaranteed, because it you know, you have to initiate, I mean, even if the IRA or 401 K or your investments, you know, fully invested, you got to initiate Okay, and figure out how much is it going to earn? And how much can I take, and so in that could fluctuate a little bit. And that's why most advisors when they start talking about retirement, you know, and you hear a lot about, well, what's the sustainable rate? You know, is it 4%? Is it 3% 5% That I can take out month in month out every year, you know, and maybe not use my principal, or maybe some of my principal, but because retirees, you know, we're, again, we're thinking about that income of how much do I need every month? And then how much you know, above that? Do I do I want?   Speaker 1  7:52  Well, so if we're thinking about guaranteed versus non guaranteed now, balance was where I was going to go with this, I got ahead of myself. So you know, somebody might say, well, what's the proper balance? Like, I want more of the guaranteed many of us would just say that, because we feel like, okay, great, that means that we're covered. But often if you're thinking about this, okay, so if that's where the strategizing comes in, because let's say you've got your, your assets that you've built up of, let's just keep it an easy number, a million dollars, right? And a 401k, or whatever, you know, various different sources like that. And then you got your Social Security, your polling, and the balance that comes into play, Tony, when you're trying to figure out how much you need to pull from what place at what time to create that difference of that shortfall, but also not cause yourself taxation issues, correct?   Speaker 2  8:36  Correct. Yeah. And that's where the good planning comes in more for retirees. I think that even people, you know, just trying to get to the end, right. They're working because, yeah, yeah, in the working years, but it really comes down to, you know, sitting down and trying to analyze what your expenses are, so you can figure out what is covered what isn't, I think a lot of times, people don't realize that, even on the non guaranteed side, once you get this number, or your shortfall number. And depending on what you have, you know, it's fairly easily to predict, especially with today's software, where you can take a person's, let's say, let's say they had a million dollars, and we were going to assume a 4% withdrawal rate you can easily see based on different investments scenarios, how much predictability or what percentage of the time if they live to say 95 to 100? Would they absolutely run out of money and, and so then they could sit there and say, okay, so you know, there's a, for example, a 95% chance, if I have x amount of my guaranteed side, and I take my Million Dollar Portfolio invested in such a way that it's going to throw off X that I'm never going to run out of money and I I've already got everything covered, plus what I want to do and then they can feel good about that, you know, and that's, that's where the numbers come in.   Speaker 1  9:55  Well, now many of us have heard the term paycheck and play check. And if not, I think that was actually coined by Tom hegner, I believe, financial professional as well, you know, so typically, we might think of, okay, well, I need that guaranteed money. That's my quote unquote, paycheck, right? That's covering my must haves and must haves, or you know, the house, rent, or mortgage or food, right? You know, the things we have to have. And then the paycheck side, often people say, well, that's gonna be the non guaranteed and that's the fun stuff in retirement. Do you see that as kind of accurate? Or is that still a really is there other strategizing to where maybe we want to try to pay for everything out of those paychecks and then let the paychecks grow or be really special.   Speaker 2  10:40  you know, a one off kind of deals, I suggest that to some people that are in in the position where they're guaranteed side can cover everything. Right, you know, I don't have any clients right now that have taken me up on that, you know, that say, I want my my stash my paycheck side to just sit and grow for legacy for right. Yeah,   Unknown Speaker  11:00  I guess it depends on your what you want. Right? Legacy is a great, yeah.   Speaker 2  11:03  Yeah. But it is it is a point to consider. I mean, most of the people that we work with, even their you know, without increasing their, their lifestyle, the guaranteed side, the paycheck side is not generally fully covered by guaranteed stuff. Right. And so we all right, yeah, it's a shortfall. Yeah. And so we're kind of dipping into and then we got to show them. Well, you know, but you know, that shortfall could easily be covered by the other side of things. Yeah, the   Speaker 1  11:31  million bucks put away. Let's say that was the exam. Yeah. And that's I think that's where most of us go right, Tony, I mean, because unless you're lucky enough to have a pension. And so because, like the like the milking stool philosophy, right, the analogy, excuse me, were the three legs of a milking stool, right you so if you've got a pension and Social Security, usually a fairly modest or even or a good, you know, nest egg built of your own, you may not have to touch that nest egg very often, because the Social Security in the pension covers it. But most of us are not in that boat. So Right. So that shortfall is a little bigger, because we don't have that quote unquote, pension leg. That's true. Yes. And even,   Speaker 2  12:06  I mean, it's hard to to find these days, where they've got that, you know, because most people aren't in, you know, a place for 3540 years, most places don't have pensions, like government, right, or stay at, let's say, government. And so there is that shortfall. Now, in my own personal situation, my wife happens to be in a government spot. She's been there for 35 years. And so she has our IPERs, which, even though it's extremely good, you know, it doesn't replace 100% of her salary, but it replaces about 70%. And so the   Speaker 1  12:38  shortfall, you gotta kind of you may have to look at like your own personal nest egg, correct my own   Speaker 2  12:42  personal essay, and then she's gonna have Social Security on top of that. So I think with, like, in her case, about 80% of her pre retirement income is going to be covered. And so that's pretty pretty darn close, you know, and then with the other investments, you know, we have and whatnot that that's our play, check slash, fill in the gap money. And that's what you go with, you know, when you got to get engineering   Speaker 1  13:08  well, so and this is where I guess the strategizing of maximization for your income streams or sources, comes into play, right? So having a good conversation, having a good strategy, put together with an advisor, like yourself, so we can it cuz we hear like terms like, hey, get us Social Security Maximization, right? For example. What's the strategy for doing that? And that's really where working with a Pro comes into place is we talk all the time, Tony about the DIY movement of the last number of years has been very easy. It's in it's been easy for quite a while, let's be honest, to accumulate money, right? So if you do the basics, you can probably save, you know, for your future self. But the retirement aspect, that preservation distribution, and the little funky nuances of how to maximize this, what's the best strategy for that? How's it gonna affect tax aid, you know, taxation by taking this money out at this time, and so on. And so that's where the nitty gritty gets really tough for folks. And that's where, obviously, you know, folks like you come in   Speaker 2  14:05  it is and even with a Social Security, you know, planning for because everybody's got the question, Well, should I take it early? Or? I'm gonna take it a second I, you know, I for retirement benefits they owe me it's mine. Right? Yeah, it's mine, you know, and so I tried to talk to him about well, but if we do this, based on what you have, it might be better to wait, you know, type of thing. And I know, and big money that we're talking to, can be big money, big money. And in my own case, again, back to my wife's pension, you know, the, one of the decisions we'll have to make is, well, do we want to just take the straight pension and then when she dies, if she dies before me, I'm out, or do we want to make sure it takes a little less and so you know, if she dies before me, I've still got it till I die, you know, and then run that it's over. So it's those kinds of little decisions you got to put a pencil to and try to figure out what's best for your own situation.   Speaker 1  14:57  Yeah, and often you definitely want to make sure you're making the right one there. or because, depending again on the strategy, because some people might say, well, we're gonna take the bigger dollar option, which does eliminate the spousal often, right. And so if you do that you better have that backup plan in place to know that the spouse is still covered, once that pension runs out, so or the exactly person passes away prematurely, or, you know, whatever the case might be. So there's a lot of little nuances to that. So understanding your income is really important. So this is kind of a quick rundown of some of some different categories you might find. And, again, the guaranteed versus the non guaranteed and how they kind of all play together. And that's why it's important to get a plan and a strategy. So if you need some help, and you're not already working with Tony, reach out to him and have a conversation, hopefully this kind of sparked some interest for you to start thinking about, Yeah, where is my income sources coming from? Or how do I make my 401 K and income source, things like that? Reach out to Tony and his team at tax Doctor Inc. find them online at your planning proz.com That's you're planning proz.com or call him at 844-707-7381. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast playing with the tax man on Apple, Google or Spotify. Alright, Tony, thanks for hanging out, buddy. I appreciate it.   Unknown Speaker  16:06  All right. We'll see you next time. Yeah,   Speaker 1  16:07  I'll see you in a couple of weeks and we'll be back in August with a new episode here on plan with the tax man   Disclaimer: Securities offered through Avantax Investment ServicesSM. Member FINRA, S.I.P.C. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency.

From self-centered to more of a self-less life through God's direction, our guest Stacy Thomas has learned to be bold and courageous in sharing her faith.    Step out of your comfort zone and step into an ability to share your faith as Joshua 1:9 commands. Be bold and courageous.    ***** Kimberly Hobbs   Welcome to empowering lives with purpose. And I'm your host, Kimberly Hobbs. I am the founder of Women world leaders. Ladies, we are so grateful that you have decided to join us today. And we would love to welcome our guests today. Who is Stacy Thomas from? Where are you from stays in my city Beach, Florida Animos city, I knew it was Florida. I just forgot this the city. So welcome, Stacy. Stacy Thomas   Thank you for inviting me. I'm really appreciative. Kimberly Hobbs   Oh, you're appreciative that you're here. So, ladies, it's all about sharing our stories to encourage each other what God has done in and through our lives. That is who we are at women, world leaders, we want to come beside you encourage you empower you, strengthen, strengthen you through the power of the Word of God. We believe that he is working in you giving you the desire and power to do what pleases Him. That's actually a scripture from Philippians 213. And what does God say in Revelations 1211, he says that they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And we believe that by sharing our testimonies that we can overcome him which is the enemy of our lives, and we share our testimonies and oh my goodness, what comes out of it is just amazing. And others can relate and, and help you know draw their relationship closer to the Lord as well. So, so ladies, we are so happy to have you and I just want to share a little bit about Stacey before. She shares a little bit about her story with you because today we're going to talk about being bold and courageous. And Stacey is a wife and a mother of three and she's been a pediatric occupational therapist for 27 years and is currently serving in the level three NICU unit. Stacy served as the ministry leader at her local Celebrate Recovery for seven years. She has assisted with establishing community based nonprofit ministries such as backport blessings and protect our preemies. Stacy has multiple publications in a local Christian magazine ad and has co published in the APTA professional research journal. Stacey enjoys spending time traveling with her husband visiting her children hiking and outdoor activities. And one of her scripture verses that is special to her is Psalm 91 Two, which says He is my refuge, my fortress, my God in him will I trust. So as I was sharing, ladies, today, we're going to talk about being bold and courageous. And if you're anything like me, I had a difficult time because I have always felt unworthy and worthy to talk out and share about my faith. Because of my past. And I know in speaking with Stacey, her and I shared some of the same past and that just lacking confidence. But Joshua one nine says, Have I not commanded you be strong and courageous, be bold, do not be afraid. And Tracy was an only child growing up. So she was in this kind of self absorbed place. But after growing in the Lord in him intervening in her life, he has taken her from this self centered place to now being more selfless. It's this growth process that we all need to go through. And she is learning how to be a selfless human being. And today Stacey is going to share a little bit about in her story about how God has drawn her closer to him. Stacey, can you share about that a little bit? Stacy Thomas   Thank you, Kimberly. Yeah, just to give you a little background, I, like Kimberly said was born and only child to very young parents who were on their way to college and life changed quickly for them because of that decision. And through a difficult delivery. Long story short, I ended up having some difficulties and was later diagnosed with cerebral palsy. So mild case but still have some challenges with my physical abilities. I always did well in school, and really learn to overcompensate there with my grades trying to meet the demands of fitting in. So over the years of being an only child and my parents were working and going to school, I learned to become more self sufficient. And I never really had to be challenged in any way with confrontation because there were no siblings to have confrontation with. And I guess I could say I was probably a fairly easy child, I didn't have much conflict with my parents growing up. So I grew up believing that I was in control, and that I was independent, and that I could do whatever needed to be done. And I carried that into my adulthood. I knew who Jesus was, but I did not have a relationship with him growing up in high school friends, who went to church would invite me I would go, but honestly speaking, it was more for the socialization, and just being able to fit in somewhere than it truly was about making myself a relationship with Jesus. went away to college, five hours away, no cell phones, and I was large and in charge of my own life and not doing it very well. Really kind of let go of some morals that my parents had instilled in me and being a number one party school, University of Florida, tended to hang up those morals and just do everything I could to fit in with the people around me. So over time, after marriage, and having kids and my children really were the gifts that God gave me, that made me want to have a closer relationship with God, because I wanted them to. And that's what really kind of led me to start going to church and pursuing God a little bit more. But even on the Wednesdays, and Sundays that I was there and serving, I still kept a Unknown Speaker   wall up Stacy Thomas   between me and had a lot of expectation on others had a fairly critical spirit on me and, and didn't give a lot of grace at that time. And so God began talking to me about that in my late 30s. So that's kind of in a nutshell. And Kimberly Hobbs   and I know through our conversation, Stacy and talking to you, you are sharing about that time where God started speaking to you and listening to podcasts, which we know are very helpful. Ladies, these podcasts are so helpful to us, aren't they, and I am just so grateful for them. Please pray for us as we do these podcasts. But you were listening to podcasts in your life, Stacy, and God was speaking to you. And then you are also sharing how you did a study in the zekiel. And one of the words that was jumping out at you as the word telling. And Ezekiel was talking about that in his book about being telling to be bold, and stand up and speak up, instead of being full of pride and talking from a self centered place. How did you do that? Stacy? How did he do this through you? Stacy Thomas   Well, God led me to a ministry called Celebrate Recovery about 10 years ago, and my church had started it. I was one of those people that said, I'm not one of those people. And finally, God just led me there really, truly with a desire to fix my marriage and fix my husband. But God showed me that that was not my job. And hey, let's look at these things in your heart a little bit. So after some time doing the steps there and realizing that I had some hurts that I needed to deal with, and some anger to deal with. The Lord led me through that and to a much healthier place. And since then, my studies have included podcasts have included small groups. And recently, last year, he said, I want you to study zekiel And I said, God, what? And so I kind of pushed back in my old Stacy way of pushing back from things and sat on it for a bit. And then this past month podcast that I listened to started a lit study on a zekiel. And I realized, Okay, God, you put me up this put this before me again. So I was obedient and began to study on the podcast. And yes, I had no idea what Ezekiel looked like for my life, but he has opened my eyes to realizing that he's not putting me out into the world to fix people, like I have done in my job that's been a requirement as an occupational therapist is to fix the injury, fix the development of the child, whatever it may be, but that my role as a Christian is not to fix people, but to tell people who he is and the love that He has for others. And for me And so I'm learning a new habit of just being able to go out and share and not have to be a scholar in the word not have to be a Theo theology, but use my testimony, use my story, use my experiences, to show people how much God loves us, and how much his purpose for us is for good, but also for the kingdom and helping others come to know who he is. Kimberly Hobbs   That's so true, so true. And thank you, I am so grateful that God impressed upon your heart, that you needed to turn things around and to start to speak truth into people in the place that God has brought you. And you are now doing that inside the NICU unit. And God brings you to women that are there. There's reasons why some of these babies are born. So premature, and there are problems associated with those children. And sometimes the the pregnancies and it gives you the ability to speak truth into their lives. And I'm just very grateful for that. So out of your place of rejection and different things that you've had to deal with in your life of fear that you can now speak truth into these women who are rejected and afraid. And God gives you these opportunities. So the Bible says when fear a mobilizes us, ladies, like when you are afraid to do something, just as I believe Stacey, in hearing her testimony, was afraid to step out in that faith and to be bold. And to be courageous. The Bible says when fear a mobilizes you to do something, ladies, don't be afraid or discouraged, for the Lord will personally go ahead of you and He will be with you. And he will neither fail you nor abandon you. And that's Deuteronomy 31. Eight. Stacy, can you give us some examples how God embolden you in your career? Like maybe in the NICU? Like do you have a story you could share with us about God giving you that boldness at a certain moment to step out and share about him? Stacy Thomas   Oh, wow, there's so many opportunities. First, I want to share a scripture. Second Corinthians one four is kind of the scripture that I stand on now for my work. And it says, who comforts us in all our tribulations so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. And to me that says that he's calling us to use our testimony to help people understand and have hope that they are not alone. In the NICU, I come across mothers who, you know, most women, you know, have an expectation of I'm going to get pregnant, I'm going to carry this baby for 40 weeks, and there's going to be a baby shower, and there's going to be a now there's these baby reveals, and you know, all these fun things that are supposed to happen along the way and pictures and whatnot. And when that baby comes, we're going to spend a couple of days in the hospital, we're going to take them home to the nursery and things are going to be grand, our moms, whether it be because of prematurity or some other medical issue with the babies tend to have to have go to the NICU and have a different experience. And it's an experience where they absolutely have no control over the circumstances that they're facing this little human being that, that we that we take gratefully from God, and in some ways own in our own minds, is has to be at the mercy of the people who were taking care of it at that point. And so we have to bring to them a place of knowing that they can trust us. And how many women and men dads that I've talked to have trust issues. And so it's a very difficult time. So I've been able to use in so many ways, my experience of having cerebral palsy myself and having a developmental delay in my physical ability, being able to tell parents who are facing those worst case scenarios and say, hey, my parents face this too. And they were told I'd never walk. Or I might never walk. But look at me now. And so I'm able to use my visually use and show them that though this looks really grim right now, God took what happened to me, and he turned that into something good. So a perfect example was we had a baby who was born extremely premature. 24 weeks, her biological mother signed her rights away and she became a word of the state who was adopted. She was not doing well. She had a lot of difficulties. She was at the age where she was able to start learning to eat by mouth. And she just had no desire, she really didn't wake up much. And adoptive family was assigned to her, they came up and they immediately wanted to hold her. within 24 hours, we saw that baby turn around. Within eight hours, we saw that babies start to eat. And we were able to talk about how the love and affection that that family gave her. And the trust that they had for the process allowed them to be able to turn that baby around. And isn't that just the way that Jesus does with us? Kimberly Hobbs   Oh, yes, yes, that his arms Stacy Thomas   and he loves us. And all of the circumstances that we are in all of the tribulations that we are facing, just melt away. And we're able to surrender it all to him. And he turns it around in our life. Kimberly Hobbs   He does. He does. It's all about love. It is all about love. And I just I was flooded with goosebumps when you said that. And I can just imagine that scenario, because that's how God created us, we need to be loved. And we need to show love. And that little baby felt that love that human touch that genuine love for it. And look at what God did in that situation. Wow. Wow, that's beautiful. And to take it Stacy Thomas   further that is to have moderate to severe cerebral palsy based on the medical findings of her brain that we had seen on scans. And before she left, all evidence of brain damage was gone. Wow. And those parents embrace that as a miracle from God. And, and you know, and so not only do we have the opportunity to talk about God and His love for us and connect those dots, but then there's, you know, people that come to us that have the same ability to minister into our lives. And that's what I love about the kingdom is that we have opportunities outside where people who may not know Jesus, we have opportunities, to boldly bring it to them, but also within our own community of Christians, we need to be encouraging each other and loving on one another and accepting one another right where we are, instead of expecting another to be somewhere or doing something a certain way. Kimberly Hobbs   It's so true, we cannot have a judgmental attitude or anything, it's all about loving one another and having that boldness, again, encouraged to step out and just embrace another with love, speak the truth into their life. It's so important. You know, we see it from the moment we're born, obviously, with what you see Stacy in your career and, and you see it all through life, you see it through the mothers lives who are giving birth, you know, that maybe feel so broken, you know, delivering this child and, and rejected and whoever, you know, who knows what that woman is going through, but you have the ability, Stacy to love on them, God has put you in a place where he is using you and all of your past things in your life. To now speak love and truth into other women. And ladies, that's what we need to look for is in our own life. What are you doing? Where are you right now in your life, that God can allow you to open your mouth and speak love and truth from his word into others lives, that's what will change their lives. That's what will impact them and turn their situations around. It's his love. It's the power through his word that will do that. And we are just so grateful, Stacy for you doing that? And do you have any other examples maybe that you want to share? Because these examples again, just give such a profound? Ah, you know, like, wow, you know, I get it. I see it. I see what God's doing in that situation. About speaking boldness and to somebody. Stacy Thomas   Yeah. So one of the scriptures that I really have held on to for a long time, as James 122 says, Don't just be hearers of the word but be doers of the word. And just like an zekiel zekiel was tasked not with going in and fixing the broken nation, but he was tasked with going in and telling about God and what God's promises were and and God muted him for that purpose. He was only allowed to speak when he was sharing what God wanted share. And for me that that stood very tall for me because I've always you know, my profession requires me to People, whether it be their injury or whatever, are these babies. And so, I take that seriously, because now my new habit is to go and tell, go tell it up upon the mountain, right. So, but you know, one of the things we have to remember is that we are loved and he forgives us. And he gives a second chances. He shows us mercy and compassion and his heart is softened towards us. And that's something that we have to remember to do as well. You know, there are women that come through the unit, who have been doing drugs, and for a long time in their life, they may have been shunned, and they may have been judged and, and when they come to the unit, we have to know that they didn't, they weren't little girls that grew up thinking, Oh, when I grow up, I want to be a drug addict. They something happened in their life that created this for them. And we have an opportunity to help them become the women that God has purposed them to be. And that baby might be the reason why they are there to hear from us that they are loved, and that they are accepted, and they are forgiven. We can empower these women to have a purpose beyond that drug that they're addicted to. And we can help them. And so that's that's a big part of my heart after being involved in Celebrate Recovery as a ministry leader is that just letting people know whether it be a man or a woman that they have such great value in this world, beyond the circumstances are in the moment. And so that asked us to be those people who come alongside others who are downtrodden, and who are hurting. And they let them know that they are loved spite what has happened in their past. Kimberly Hobbs   As ladies, I believe, that's a calling on all of us, that we need to step out in prayer. And if you're not a bold person, if you're tend to be quiet, and you let others just, you know, no step out and ask God to help you be bold and courageous. And that you would step out of that comfort zone for Jesus cuz it is our it's our job, I guess you'd say, you know, as believers as those in relationships with Jesus, that we talk to somebody that we normally may not talk to, you know, our pray with a family member, a friend or a co worker such as Stacey does, she's bold, and she steps out where God has her right now, in that Nick unit and with boldness, she's praying with others, she is loving them and loving them to Jesus. And true boldness, ladies is centered in Christ, not ourselves. And sometimes we're so focused on ourselves, or what are people gonna think of us are, you know, I'm not a speaker, or I don't know, a whole lot of Scripture what, but just take that first step and just ask God to go with you, and speak out about him. And you're going to watch how he's going to be right there with you. He's going to give you our triggers something in your mind that you're going to say, because you prayed about it, and you asked him for that boldness. So the CC Can you just give us a give these ladies an encouraging word from your heart, how they can step out in that boldness just like you are you are in a place where you were, you were afraid to do that, because all the focus was on yourself. You grew up that way. But God turned it around. So how can you encourage our listening audience to step out in that boldness? Stacy Thomas   Um, I think the main thing that we have to remember is that God is never going to lead us into anything that is for to hurt us. So start feeling afraid, I realized that is from the enemy, and the enemy loves to distract us with fear. Yeah, yes. So if you know if God is calling if the Holy Spirit is putting it on my heart to talk to somebody or to say something in particular, the first thing I do is I pray about it. Because I want to be sure that my words are helpful and not hurtful, and that they come across with the right motives. And so I checked my heart, and I asked God to show me the way that would be a way to, to enlighten him in this person's life. And then I have to take that step. And, and that step is is sometimes very hard, and sometimes it's very easy, and I will be honest, sometimes it's the people that I'm the closest with that I have the hardest time being bold with. I come from a place of not wanting to disrupt the applecart, you know, and I come from a place of wanting that accepted And, and needing to know that people are happy with me. But God is really leading me out of that. And, and And ladies, if you if you wonder how I got here, it's been through just really listening to God and learning how to be obedient. And sometimes I thought, am I even hearing him. But there was always a time that he would come alongside me and make it clear in some way, even through telling me to read the book of Ezekiel, which I did not understand whole lot of before the surgery, and I still don't, but being able to just say, You know what, I'm going to take a chance on God, because what else do I what do I have to lose there? Because he's always for me, he's never against me, always. And I spent too many years living in fear and living afraid of what might happen. And now knowing that that fear comes from the enemy. It's just a matter of taking a deep breath, thanking God, loving God and saying, God, my life is surrendered for you and your will test and that word, and those 100 Steps come in baby steps. He's not going to require us to jump off the cliff into some sort of ministry or jump off the cliff into some sort of evangelism. He's just asking us to have conversations and share our story. Kimberly Hobbs   Amen. Amen. Yes, ladies, and thank you. Thank you so much, Stacy for sharing that and encouraging and it does, it requires humility, again, ladies rather than pride. And realize that you can be bold in your faith, be bold in your faith, and I just have a couple scriptures I wanted to share as we close here, the wicked flee when no one pursues, but the righteous are bold as a lion. And that's proverbs 28. One, be bold, as a lion, ladies, God will give you that confidence, you can do it, you just need to step out and be courageous. Acts for 31 reminds us that after they pray, they were shaken, they were filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God boldly. So one thing that Stacy and I were both sharing was pray, pray about it, as she is there in the NICU, and things are right in front of her situations that she doesn't have any control over, she goes to God and prayer and ask God to how is he going to use me here? What am I going to say, Lord, and then God speaks through her, he will do that for you too, if you ask him to. So remember that ladies, that's our duty, we need to be bold and courageous, and share our faith wherever we are, where ever we are in this world. And this is a tool that I hope might help you. Two years ago, we women world leaders put put out a book called courageous steps of faith. And these women, there's many women in this book that have shared their stories of being bold, and courageous and stepping out in faith and doing something amazing for the Lord. And we believe that all of us, all of us have that ability to do it. If you would like to get this book to encourage you and inspire you. It is available through our website at women, world leaders calm and it and we ask that you get it through our website, it is available on Amazon as well. But it has become a number one bestseller. And we are very grateful for that. But that's because God has shown favor and this book has been prayed over and we believe it will be a very useful tool tool to you if you need that little encouragement to step out and be bold, courageous steps of faith. And that's with God. All things are possible. We do believe that with all of our heart, ladies. And one other thing that we have for you that would be a great inspiration. And again, full of Scripture full of encouragement is our magazine that comes out once a quarter now. And it is called voice of truth. It is available digitally outside of the United States around the world, through women world leaders.com. And you can get your free copy if you are within the United States. And that is by going to women world leaders.com voice of truth and then there's a place where you can sign up leave us your name, address and email address which we do not share. But please ladies also if you receive Voice of Truth last year, this year, we need to have you re submit your name and address and email to continue receiving it. And our next edition is coming out in May. So please ladies, make sure that you get yourself Rhys re signed up for Voice of Truth or if you want it Please go to our website at women world leaders calm. So in closing again, thank you so much Stacy Thomas for joining us. And Stacy is going to be one of the authors and the upcoming book for this year which is called surrendered, yielded with purpose. So we are so excited that chair, Stacey is going to share her story. So thank you, Stacey, for your willingness to say yes to Jesus and to serve. Lady desires a place for you to serve here within this ministry and we invite each and every one of you to join us at women world leaders.com Or join us in our Facebook group. And just look for women world leaders on Facebook and asked to come into the group and we will gladly let you in. Ladies, we are so happy to have you and again from his heart to yours. We are women world leaders. All content is copyrighted and cannot be used without expressed written consent. God bless you each Thank you for listening. And please don't forget we have our teaching podcasts every Wednesday by Julie Jenkins. And we also have encouraging podcasts every Friday and Celebrating God's Grace. So ladies, please we have podcasts for you Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays please be sure to join us at Women World Leaders podcast. Thank you and God bless you  

This long-awaited Medtronic 780G is now FDA approved. It's been out for two years in Europe and has features that are a bit different from other commercially available automated insulin delivery systems in the US, including a target range down to 100. This week you'll hear from Heather Lackey, global medical education director for Medtronic Diabetes who also lives with type 1 and has used the 780G. We talk about what else this system can do – remember this is the one with the 7-day infusion set – and Stacey asks a lot of your questions. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. More info here: https://diatribe.org/medtronic-minimed-780g-approved-fda Lackey mentions a study where even with no meal boluses for three months, people stayed mostly in range. Here's that study: The Official Journal of ATTD Advanced Technologies & Treatments for Diabetes Conference Madrid, Spain—February 19–22, 2020.  Diabetes Technology & Therapeutics. Feb 2020.A-1-A-250.http://doi.org/10.1089/dia.2020.2525.abstracts Please visit our Sponsors & Partners - they help make the show possible! Take Control with Afrezza  Omnipod - Simplify Life Learn about Dexcom  Check out VIVI Cap to protect your insulin from extreme temperatures Learn more about AG1 from Athletic Greens  Drive research that matters through the T1D Exchange The best way to keep up with Stacey and the show is by signing up for our weekly newsletter: Sign up for our newsletter here Here's where to find us: Facebook (Group) Facebook (Page) Instagram Twitter Check out Stacey's books! Learn more about everything at our home page www.diabetes-connections.com  Reach out with questions or comments: info@diabetes-connections.com Rough Transcription: Stacey Simms  0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by The only Ultra rapid acting inhaled insulin by Omni pod five, the only tubeless pump that integrates with Dexcom G six mi Dexcom G seven powerful simple diabetes management. This is Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms. This week, the long awaited Medtronic 780 G is now FDA approved. It's been out for two years in Europe and its features that are a bit different from other commercially available systems in the US, including a target range down to 100.   Heather Lackey  0:44 And it's just been proven to do so successfully without really increasing a lot of time below range. You know, what will the next system lead up? Will it be below 100? I don't know. But it's so nice to be waking up with glucose levels that are so much closer to someone without type 1 diabetes with this lower target.   Stacey Simms  1:05 That's Heather Lackey, global medical education director for Medtronic. She also lives with type one, we talk about what else the system can do remember if this is the one with the seven day infusion set, and I ask a lot of your questions. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Welcome to another week of the show. Always so glad to have you here. You know, we aim to educate and inspire about diabetes with a focus on people who use insulin. I'm your host, Stacey Simms, and we are getting some big FDA approvals. Along with the Medtronic 780 G, we got word that beta bionics islet will soon be commercially available. As I am recording this I do have an interview set up with the beta bionics CEO. If all goes to plan that will be our show next week. Real quick, while the original islet dual chambered pump was not what was in front of the FDA, the pump that has been approved has some really interesting features. It's unique in that there are no steps to the programming. When you get your pump, you're not putting in basal rates or insulin sensitivity factors or anything like that. All you do is put your weight in. But that is for next week. You can follow me on social media. We've already shared some information about the islet and I've done many episodes in the past if you want to listen to those to get an idea of what was approved, but this week, we're talking about the Medtronic 780 G, as you likely remember Medtronic at the very first of what we now call a ID systems automated insulin delivery systems with their mini med 670 G and that was approved in 2017. We've been hearing about the 780 G for a long time. It was submitted in 2021. I've talked a lot about the delays in the in the news episodes. It has been approved in Canada since last year. It was approved in Europe in 2020. We're gonna go through lots of features of the pump, but you should also know that the sensor used with this system The Guardian four is approved with no finger sticks for dosing, which to me is one of the most significant changes. My guest to talk about all this is Heather lackey. She has been with Medtronic for more than 19 years. She delivers medical education strategy for insulin pump systems. She trains Medtronic education teams around the world. She lives with type one she was diagnosed at age 16. She was also a consultant on the movie Purple Hearts. She also popped up in a scene in that movie and yes, I asked her about that. Lots to get through. But first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Afrezza. Afrezza is the only FDA approved mealtime insulin that comes in a powder you inhale through your lungs. So why should you consider this unique alternative to mealtime injections. Afrezzais another option if you want to lower your use of needles or if you're experiencing skin reactions at your injection sites, and it is ultra rapid acting so you can take it right when your food arrives. Even unexpectedly. Find out more see if Afrezza is right for you go to diabetes dash connections.com and click on the Afrezza logo. Afrezza can cause serious side effects including sudden lung problems low potassium and it's not for patients with chronic lung disease such as asthma or COPD or for patients allergic to insulin. Tell your doctor if you ever smoked ever had kidney or liver problems history of lung cancer or if you're pregnant or breastfeeding. Most common side effects are low blood sugar cough and sore throat severe low blood sugar can be fatal. Do not replace long acting insulin with Afrezza, Afrezza is not for us to treat diabetic ketoacidosis please see full prescribing information including box warning medication guide and instructions for use on our frezza.com/safety. Heather, thank you so much for joining me. I have a lot of questions for you about the new system but first welcome. I'm glad to have you here.   Heather Lackey  4:52 Oh thank you Stacey. It's my pleasure to be here and so nice to get to meet you. I listen to your podcast and just excited Good to be a part of this one.   Stacey Simms  5:00 Oh, well, I'm thrilled to have you. And I'm sure you don't mind if I say it has been a long time coming. Lots of people very excited about this improvement. Can we start by just talking about the seven EDG? What makes this different from the Medtronic pumps that have come before?   Heather Lackey  5:16 Yeah, well, the mini med seven add system is different in the fact of course, it let's say what it Phil has right still has automated basal insulin, and that insulin ID based on the sensor glucose values, but this system is set apart because it delivers does auto correction boluses, like every five minutes is needed. So we know that life with type 1 diabetes, as you well know, as a mom, someone with type one and be living with it, we know that life does not go as we expect all the time and as planned. And so many things affect our glucose outside of the three things that we've always tried to juggle for years, right? Food and insulin and exercise. But now that we really kind of identify that there's so many other things that are impacting our glucose, it really brings to light the fact that we don't get it right 100% of the time, when we dose insulin, we adjust food. And so that's where those auto corrections that are coming in real time, every five minutes, if needed, can really help. And what I love about the system is the auto corrections, you don't have to be sky high to get an auto correction. As a matter of fact, you don't even have to be high. before they begin. They're really kind of thinking like a pancreas than as soon as your glucose rises over 120 milligrams, as the basal is working as hard as it can and saying, Hey, I need help, then the auto corrections come into play. And they can start dosing a correction bolus every five minutes if needed.   Stacey Simms  6:59 So what is the difference between the auto basil and that bolus that you're talking about? Because you know, the automated systems that are out right now already adjusted basal every five minutes? What is actually happening when you say oh, and it's also giving a bolus?   Heather Lackey  7:14 Yeah, so the bolus happens every five minutes on top of the date. Right, facie, so let's say, again, the goal for many meds seven ad G, there were kind of two goals in play, right, we wanted to further improve time and range, you know, compared like with the mini med 670 G system without compromising any safety, because we all know we can drive down glucose, right, but you don't want to have a lot of lows. And we wanted to reduce the daily interactions with the system. And those daily interactions, right, the the alerts and the alarms and all of the safety pieces that were were added to mini med seven, add, those have all been now relaxed, and so less than erection and improvement in time and range without sacrificing hypoglycemia. So what's nice about the system is you not only are delivering the auto basil, like you said, right, we have auto basil and other systems that now if the auto basal cannot keep the glucose level in the target range, it predicts that the glucose level is going to go higher than it would like then that's when those auto corrections come. And they don't come once an hour, they come every five minutes. As soon as that since your glucose rises over 120 milligrams per deciliter. If the system says, Hey, I'm working as hard as I can with your basal, and I'm not able to keep your glucose at the target range that we want, right. And we'll talk about targets and here in just a minute, hopefully. But if we can keep your glucose at that target range, then I'm going to ask for some help. And that's where those auto corrections. And those are boluses. Right? boluses that happen every five minutes without the patient having to agree to them, or take any action on their part. They just happen automatically.   Stacey Simms  9:14 Alright, I have a few more questions about that. But I'll get back to that in a couple of minutes. Because I feel like most people will just see the results. And they they may not have too many questions about exactly what's going on there. But I want to get back to that bullets in a minute. But you mentioned range, and the seven EDG has a lower range than Tandem and Omnipod. Five have currently right it's correcting down to 100. Or that's a choice. You can adjust that.   Heather Lackey  9:37 Yeah, there's a couple of things that are different and new about this. And Minimates seven add definitely treats to a target, not a range. But you're right though the target is the lowest target at this moment that's available and so the auto basal target, you can set three settings Three different targets are available to where the person was diabetes , their healthcare provider can can really identify which target is best for them. But the three targets are 100 milligrams per deciliter, 110, and 120. Now 100 comes as kind of the default auto basal target. And that's because we know that this system was all of the copious data that we have. And all of the simulations that were done before this system was even launched, was using that 100 target. And that's what this system is built around to be the best target to you.   Stacey Simms  10:36 We should note that tide pool type pool loop, which was approved by the FDA a few months ago, can correct down to 87. But it is not available in any insulin pump, yet. It's a software program that was approved. So 100 for Medtronic is the lowest that you can actually use right now. But it's interesting, that's 101 10 and 120, where some other systems have, you know, an exercise mode that is a higher range, do you have any insight as to why those were chosen?   Heather Lackey  11:02 Well, those are that close to target to mirror a normal functioning, you know, system a system without diabetes . And the interesting thing is, is the 100 target is very much achievable without sacrificing time below range, right? So we're able to drive with the auto basal target being set at 100. And with having the auto corrections that are even delivering up to every five minutes, this is the system, you know, determined that those were needed. We have the algorithm that built to drive the system to 100. And it's just been proven to do so successfully without really increasing a lot of time below rage. You know, what will the next system lead us? Will it be below 100? I don't know. But it's so nice to be waking up with glucose levels that are so much closer to someone without type 1 diabetes. With this lower target.   Stacey Simms  12:03 Let's talk about the sensor because there are changes here too. Right. Tell me about the sensor that goes along with the 780G? Yeah, well,   Heather Lackey  12:10 the Guardian four sensor is the center that it works with the mini med 780G system. And the Guardian Force center was designed really to reduce the burden as daily finger sticks. That was the whole goal. Let's remove calibration from the system. And let's try to develop a system that doesn't require finger sticks. As we know, sometimes finger sticks still are needed with really with any of the systems and sensors. But the majority of the time when our patients are in the mark guard feature is they are using the SR glucose to bolus off that, you know, there's no real need for a fingerstick glucose. And interestingly enough, most patients bend upwards of you know, 95% or so in that smart guard feature. And so many patients will tell me, I am forgetting my glucose meter at home. And I had one patient that went on a trip, he went out of the country and he said, Look, I totally left insulin and glucose at home because I had kind of forgotten to take my meter bag with me. Wow, learning for sure.   Stacey Simms  13:27 Oh my gosh, yeah, my son goes without a meter quite often. Since you know his we use the Dexcom in the control IQ system from Tandem. But yeah, you don't want to forget your bag entire. That's not good   Heather Lackey  13:38 news. Okay, that's if that's now a burden that is taken off of you. And that's lovely. Yeah, no doubt. No need to be prepared, right?   Stacey Simms  13:47 Yep, absolutely. And I think it's worth pointing out that this is the only automated insulin system in the United States. That is one system, right? It's a glucose monitor infusions that insulin pump. That's all Medtronic and this system has that extended infusion set right so you're talking to sensor you were for seven days, and an infusion set for seven days, right. We'll get right back to my conversation with Heather but vs Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Omni pod. And when you're deciding that a random insulin pump, you got a lot to think about, especially if you've never used a pump before. It really can seem overwhelming. I remember that there are a lot of choices, and you want to make the right decision. And that's why I'm so excited to tell you about Omni pod five. Curious about trying an insulin pump or seeing what life without tubes is all about. Unlike traditional tube pumps, you can try Omni pod without being locked into a four year contract. You might even be eligible for a free trial, go to diabetes dash connections.com and click on the Omnipod logo for full safety risk information and free trial Terms and Conditions. Also visit omnipod.com/diabetes connections. Now back to Heather answering my question about this seven day infusion set   Heather Lackey  15:03 That's exactly right. One kind of new feature of the mini med seven add system is the extended infusion set. And that extended infusion set. It's been launched for a few months in a few different countries. But it comes now with de minimis 780G system, and really allowing people to just kind of have to think about changing a center and changing their infusions that just one day out of the week versus anymore. And so that system, you know, I have so many people that will go have our youth told us for years, you know, that we have to change our infusion set every three days. And why are we able to start to use that system now, and just been using that now for seven days. And the the, it's really simple to explain without getting into a lot of engineering details, but that infusions that is made with this advanced material. And what it does is it helps to reduce the insulin preservative, you know, kind of the loss that we would typically have, it helps to maintain the insulin flow. And it helps to maintain the stability of the unfolding. And so there's such a reduced risk of any kind of blockage or occlusions, with your infusion set whenever you use this new extended infusion set. And I always have to remind patients and people with that need us and their families, make sure you're only using the extended infusion set for seven days, and you're not using your current infusions that are that long, because the materials are different.   Stacey Simms  16:41 Yeah, good point. Can you use any insulin in those extended infusion sets?   Heather Lackey  16:47 So well, in the mini med 780G system, the insolence that are approved and on label are human log and Nova logs. So both of those are available to us with that set.   Stacey Simms  16:59 So no, Lusia if I ask, just checking, those are not approved at this time. Got it? Got it. I had a listener ask if the duration of insulin is adjustable, you know, is that a setting that people can kind of go in and tinker with?   Heather Lackey  17:13 Yeah, so active insulin kind of talks about the or is our duration and insulin kind of tuning knob that is in the programmable settings on the mini med 780G pump, the active insulin Time is of the two settings that are critical is one of the two, right the first setting is the auto label target, you know, looking at that 100 glucose target for most people with diabetes, but then also setting the active insulin time to two hours. And a lot of people will say, Look, I have never had active insulin or insulin on board. I've never thought that human log or Nova log was out of my body in just a couple of hours. And so it's interesting that Medtronic is recommending a two hour active insulin time. Why is that? And the real answer is this is what the algorithm was designed around, right, it's fine to have the ability to, you know, the algorithm is asking the patient, if you set the active insulin time to two hours, then that gives me the ability to calculate insulin, if I think it's needed, right, that doesn't always mean that you're just gonna get insulin stacked on top of, you know, each other dose on top of a dose every two hours. It just means that gives the algorithm the ability to give correction sooner. And whenever you're giving those auto correction. as frequently as every five minutes, it makes sense to be able to just kind of give the algorithm the freedom to make the decision if it's needed. And anytime I have someone that really wants to debate this, and understand how the algorithm works, I just always have to say, let's just look at the data. And you know, we're not stalking we're not having hypoglycemia in the 10s of 1000s of patients that we have data on.   Stacey Simms  19:06 Yeah, it's actually I wish I had a diabetes educator. Maybe this will be for another episode. You are obviously a diabetes educator. But it'd be fun to have somebody else from a different pump company because other pump companies will say no, no, no, exactly. As you're saying like you're stacking insulin. We set it this way for a reason. It's not adjustable for a reason. Is this two hour duration. A different setting from previous Medtronic pumps forgive me? I'm not as familiar with them.   Heather Lackey  19:29 You don't know. That's a great question. They see it the same accident one time. Honestly that has been a part of the bolus calculator settings, the bolus wizard and now the smartcard bolus feature that even since the paradigm days, right, when the bolus calculator was first presented, we're now looking at decades ago with the active insulin time. So it's the same setting we've had, but now it's kind of viewed in a different way than Then it has been in the past, right? In the past, it was very traditional, like you're saying and, and kind of how patients will think of it with, you know, whenever I'm in conversation with them, they're like, How can this be. And the simple fact is, with setting the accidents one time, as low as two hours, which is what we see the best control, the best time and range and the lowest time below range, right? So the fueler lows is actually set at two hours. And what that does is it just is a tuning algorithm knob. And it says, Hey, algorithm I'm going to allow you to give, if you determine that it's necessary, meet Insulet. And because you're looking at my rate of change, you're looking at how much insulin is on board, you know, how many grams of carbohydrate that I've entered, it takes all of this information into account and decide if action should be taken. And what lovely is the patient, the person with diabetes that mom, dad, the family, they don't have to make any of those decision, the system is doing it for them.   Stacey Simms  21:05 It should have probably started with this question. But what does the algorithm use as a starting base? You know, we're used to traditional insulin pumps where you sit with your educator or your doctor and you say, Here's my basal rate, here's my sensitivity factor or correction factor, or, as we're talking about here, duration, there is a pump in front of the FDA right now that just uses body weight. What is the 780? G use?   Heather Lackey  21:26 Yeah, that's a great question as well, algorithm really start with total daily dose of insulin, kind of as it is its starting point, right, the calculation. And that's why whenever you are new on the mini meds 780G system, people have to stay in manual mode. So the kind of the non auto basal in auto correction kind of piece of it. So they stay in manual mode for 224 hour days, right. So it's two days in manual mode. And then there's enough data as a starting point for this system to be able to, to say, Okay, this is a safe basal amount for you to begin with. In addition, if there's sensor glucose tracings, in that 48 hours of kind of that warmup period, to the smart guard feature, then those fasting sensor glucose level pump is looking to see like, how much insulin Do you require, whenever you're not announcing meals and, and so it see, okay, this is your center, glucose is in a fasting state. Now, how much auto Basil is being delivered. And that is kind of the two main pieces of information of how the system decides how much auto basil to begin with, and to deliver,   Stacey Simms  22:49 got it, can the user switch back to manual mode,   Heather Lackey  22:53 yet, they can, at any time, they can stop the smart guard feature, we know that the data is so overwhelmingly heavy weights heavy on the smart guard side. So we definitely see a major difference in time and range being improved. Whenever people are in this barcard feature versus in manual mode, right? They're always encouraged to say and   Stacey Simms  23:16 got it but the system doesn't like. And I hesitate to say it this way. But you'll know exactly what I mean, the system isn't kicking people out as much as one of the very early automated systems for Medtronic, right? That was a big complaint with the 670 was I got kicked out of auto mode.   Heather Lackey  23:30 That was a complaint. And we know that whenever the mini med six, seven ad system, the first hybrid closed loop system of its time was a pretty conservative algorithm, right? Because it was first of its kind, Medtronic really had to build on a number of safety precautions. And in many cases that led to those unwanted alerts and alarms and interactions with the pump to keep the system kind of in that auto mode, smart guard auto mode feature. And so with this, we the exits on mini med 780 G system. I mean, they're just not happening, right. And again, though, the number one of two goals of this system was to reduce the daily interactions with the system. So we can't have beats and alerts and alarms. And hey, you have to enter a BG all the time in order to stay in to the automation mode. This is a big difference that people especially those that have been on previous hybrid closed loop systems of all kinds, they're like this is really a pretty big change right? exits at night, exit in the daytime alerts at night. Those are some of the things that are really different from a user lens. Whenever I hear anyone asked my husband, you know, like what kind of from your standpoint In a view, what's the biggest change with you seeing your wife were the minimis 780G system for a while. And he just says, look, it just doesn't wake us up at night. And he just seems to be a little bit more pleased. A lot of surveys that have been conducted all throughout, you know, the countries where people are using and wearing many hats, 7080 G system, you know, it's like 94 95% of people are saying that they're satisfied with the impact on the their quality of life, they're happier with the quality sleep, that's one that's pretty high, ranked and desired by many. So for us to get a good night's rest and to feel confident to go to bed, lay our head down, not have lows or highs not have alerts and alarms. That's the system that we need. And that that's what people are enjoying.   Stacey Simms  25:54 One more question about manual mode, a listener had asked me is manual mode usable during the auto mode? In other words, if somebody really feels like they need to do an additional bolus, can they do it?   Heather Lackey  26:05 It can be done, but I would kind of ask why do they feel like it needs to be done? Right? Why would you need to go out to manual mode if you need to give an additional bolus. So carbs can be entered at any time that those are consumed? Right, we definitely want to announce our mills. And at any time in the smartguard feature, a patient can always look to see if if they what we kind of say a user initiated correction dose is needed. So you don't you know, I don't ever want people to feel like once I'm in the smart guard feature, guy can't take action. If I see glucose, where I don't want it to be or if I've eaten something that I didn't tell it, you know, go ahead and deliverable list, at least check to see if a bolus should be given. And maybe some of the feedback that patients had on mini med 670 G system where they felt like they had to enter in perhaps kind of ghost carbs or fake carbs when they weren't actually eating them to kind of trick the algorithm to giving more insulin, I think you'll find with now that control that we have able to control on this system like that active insulin times and the auto basal. I don't see that people at all are having to what we say automate the automation? Well,   Stacey Simms  27:27 yeah, we let me ask you a follow up on that. Because I don't know anybody who uses an AI D system who just puts in meal boluses and says, Great, I'm always in the range I want to be are you saying that's what's happening with the 780?   Heather Lackey  27:39 Well, I'm saying that anytime that you eat in any of the AIP systems, right, you can you can enter those grams of carbohydrate. But because many meds 780G system gives the autocorrection doses starting at anytime, and glucose is over 120 systems. If the auto basal can't handle that glucose response, then they're gonna get it. So because you start you intervene the system intervene early and intervene often, there's less of the need to take matters in your own hand. Right. So it's a different mindset. Really it?   Stacey Simms  28:18 Yeah, no, it's absolutely it sounds great. Well, we'll see. When you said meal announcements, to be clear, you're talking about carb counting and putting in the numbers of carbs you're eating, you're You're not just saying I am eating?   Heather Lackey  28:31 You're saying I Yes. You're you're entering grams of carbohydrate. Thank you for clarifying going   Stacey Simms  28:36 no, I'm just you know, I know it's coming. It's amazing to see how these things are changing. I just want to be clear as we go. Yeah. Well,   Heather Lackey  28:42 you know, that's kind of a segue Stacey to a lot of the different thoughts on do people have to now with autocorrection? Do people have to be so precise on the grams of carbohydrate that they're entering into those bits? Okay. Well,   Stacey Simms  28:59 let me give you Yeah, let me let's segue into that. Let me give you the best case use that I can make in my house or something like this. I have an 18 year old, he's a great kid. He's very responsible with diabetes. He is terrible about bowling before he eats. It's just it's just not happening. And so we have a lot of, you know, excursions that perhaps don't necessarily need to be happening. I would be thrilled at a more aggressive post meal bolused system. So talk me through what happens to scenarios for you. Somebody has an AD of just throw 85 carbs out there because this happened recently. So somebody has an 85 carb dinner, they bolus five minutes after they finish it. Or somebody has an 85 carb dinner and completely forgets to bolus how does the system handle those things? Oh, yeah.   Heather Lackey  29:45 Well, I'd love to show you my report. Because not only does it happen with an 18 year old, it happens with me more than I would like oh my goodness. I plan for 33 years. How am I forgetting to push the button,   Stacey Simms  30:01 I love it, you're human, you're human. I'm totally   Heather Lackey  30:04 human. So the 85 gram carb dinner, and they bill it five minutes later, right? We know that if you are not giving insulin before the meal, right, you're gonna have food most likely showing up to the party before the insulin arrives, right, so you're gonna have food, their glucose is gonna rise because of the food digest. And then here comes insulin. In that case, we would say, Look, if then, you know, if you're really bolusing, after the meal, you probably are going to need to reduce your meal Bolin, than we have some exact parameters for healthcare providers to kind of discuss with their patients. But you know, on average, it's like, look, probably just dose for, you know, maybe that path in your case, maybe it's not, because as you know, as those is that sensor, glucose starts to rise, the auto basal start to increase, it gets to the maximum, let's say, and then here comes the auto correction. And then you've got insulin, you know, from the bolus still showing up to the party at that point. So what's so great about this system is it knows like, okay, auto Basil is increasing, then there's some, you know, potential auto corrections, as soon as the bullet is given, the system goes, Okay, let's just, let's back off, right, let's see, what's gonna happen with the system before we really just push the pedal to the metal and start giving more correction. Right? So everything is done with the total safety in mind, right, which is something that's so great. Now for the 85 grams of carbohydrate, and they don't bolus at all, well, then that's really what are the auto corrections and the auto basil can shine, that's really where you're going to see sensor glucose is rising. And am I going to say they're never going to go high with an 85 gram carbon bill, I would say that wouldn't be, you know, really unlikely, depending on what what the nutrients are in that food, I would think it was going to be unlikely. And so glucose is going to rise, the system is going to to handle it as as well as it can. But what I can see time and time again, with when mills are skipped, that patients don't go as high and they don't say as high as long. But we have a study that actually support that patient who did zero pole was seeing for a period of time. So this is every single meal for this length of time. And I'd have to look at the report to know exactly the days, but their time and range was just right under that 70% of time and rain. Yeah. And so that's not at all what we are recommending, because we know that if you bolus and you're using the recommended settings, it doesn't matter if you're eight year old, or if you are a 18 year old, or if you're a 58 year old or if you're a 78 year old, we know that for everyone, you can have an upward time and range of 80% plus, right. So we know it's better. And we absolutely want to provide the charge that we should be announcing mil but it's so nice, whenever the occasional I forgot to bolus to you know,   Stacey Simms  33:29 sort of occasional   Unknown Speaker  33:32 got your back for some more than   Stacey Simms  33:36 excellent. I did get this question about the bolusing system, how much of a correction is given? Because on some of these other systems, it's a partial correction. I don't know if you can share that, you know, it's it may be part of the algorithm that you can't share. And then also, how does the system differentiate? Or does it between a missed meal and a random high? You know, a high that may come for another reason?   Heather Lackey  33:57 Yeah. Thank you good questions. Okay. So for the repeat the first one, if you don't mind, sure   Stacey Simms  34:03 how much of a correction is given, you know, like on the T slim, I think I may not be correct here, but it's something like, you know, once an hour can give 60% of the program to bolus. So is that something that the Medtronic keep some good and maybe proprietary? Well,   Heather Lackey  34:16 I can tell you this is the difference with the mini med 780G system is it gives a full correction, you know, if needed every five minutes and every correction bolus, right? It's like if you were giving a correction yourself with a pump, you're going to enter your glucose. The system does the same. It says look, this is where the glucose is. This is where I want it to be. And it's targeting 120 Whenever it's giving a correction dose of insulin, right. That's why after 120 it can start to deliver a correction dose and it looks at the difference and it sees how much insulin is going to be needed. And then it also applies other metrics as well like how much insulin is circulating in the body and And then it determine the safe amount that is going to be needed every five minutes. Got it?   Stacey Simms  35:06 Got it. Okay, great. And then the other question is about does the system differentiate between, you know, missing a meal or a high for another reason? And I could think of highs, you know, and teenagers for, you know, hormones or exercise, things like that, does the system differentiate? And I guess the follow up is, does it need to, or is a high, just a high,   Heather Lackey  35:24 you know, really high is the high and and that's what's so great about the the system anytime there is a rising rate of change, and you know, parameters are met, that the pump says, Wait a second, this is a rising rate. Oftentimes, it's a meal that's missed right? To meet the parameters. When the system sees that this is Matt, what it does is it allows a correction dose to be delivered even a little bit more aggressively. Right. So you know, it does have a mill detection module built in. It has mill detection technology built in, but it doesn't so much say, Oh, this is your sensor, glucose is rising now because of the meal. So I'm going to act this way. Versus your since your glucose is rising, because you have hormone releasing in the middle of the night and you're sleeping, right. Either way, this system is looking at the sensor glucose response. And if it's corrections need to be delivered in a more aggressive manner, or larger corrections need to be delivered either way, then the system is able to do that. You know,   Stacey Simms  36:40 we've mentioned several times that you live with type 1 diabetes. I mean, I know I can talk to you about the pump for probably another two hours. And I hope you'll come back on and we can talk more about it. But I want to ask you about your your journey. You were diagnosed as a teenager, what did you use what was the first diabetes technology, I assume it was a blood sugar meter. coming right back to Heather in just a second. But first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Dexcom. And Benny has been using the Dexcom CGM for almost 10 years now, that first insertion was in 2013, just before he turned nine. I mean, it was great. Then if you've done finger sticks for a while you know how amazing it is to go from that to continuous glucose monitoring. But it is even better. Now. The Dexcom CGM systems just keep improving, continuing to get more and more accurate with no finger sticks or scanning required. The easy push button insertion has made it easy for Benny to do it himself. He has done every one since we switched to the GS six in 2018, which is really great for his independence back then, as a younger teen. Of course, we still love the alerts and alarms, and that we can set them how we want if your glucose alerts and readings for the G six do not match symptoms or expectations. Use a blood glucose meter to make diabetes treatment decisions. To learn more, go to diabetes connections.com and click on the Dexcom logo. Now back to Heather talking about what things were like she was diagnosed at age 16.   Heather Lackey  38:10 Yeah, you know, I was diagnosed in 1990. And of course, I had a meter. The old lancing device that I had was the one that you lay on the table and it's spring loaded and it like warm around like a hammerhead, and it would poke your finger. Right. So that was my first one. And you know, I was just on conventional insulin therapy, right, at least had disposable syringes. I wasn't sharpening a needle or have a glass of orange or anything like that. And you know, for me, Stacy, my parents were so great. My dad worked internationally. And they were just constantly talking to people like what, there's got to be something that right because I was doing everything I could, I mean, I really tried hard. And I have for, you know, three decades, tried hard to really kind of manage things. And they said, you know, there's got to be something better. And that was right at the end was actually before the end of the DCCT trial, when my parents were told, Hey, there's, we've got to get her on something better. We're starting to notice that these multiple daily injections are going to be a lot better. So went to went and started multiple daily injections. And at that point, this was in 1992. At that point, they they the healthcare team said you ought to consider a tump you're you're young your parents have insurance. You guys are certainly kind of wanting to have the best control you should consider a pump and Stacy for cash for seven years. The first seven years after I was diagnosed I did not want an insulin pump to save my life. I wouldn't even think about it until someone said hey, I had gained some weight in college, as many females and male do and I was trying to lose weight exercising to on the elliptical and or the treadmill, either one. And every time I would exercise, I would go low. And every time I would go low, I would have to have juice and peanut butter crackers, or whatever the case was, and I was having more calories than I had exercised off, you know, you can see the counter of your calories that you're burning. And I'm like, This is ridiculous, I'm going to continue to go low, and not be able to trim down my weight some, and I didn't have the right tools. And so that's the reason I started on a pump and then have been on a pump. For the last, I don't know, 2026 27 years, maybe when you   Stacey Simms  40:37 used to do a lot of patient training on insulin pumps, I know you still do some now, I'm even in your role here. What are their biggest concerns? You know, there's a lot of mechanical learning if you've never used an insulin pump before. But there's also as you mentioned, there's a reluctance sometimes. Can you share a little bit about what patients tell you?   Heather Lackey  40:54 I think the unknown is the biggest thing for patients, right? They don't know if it's surgical, they don't know if it how this goes in how you disconnect, how you're going to get live. The five emphases as I call it, you know, how do you sleep? How do you shower? How do you swim? How do you go in, you know, with exercise and do sports, what happens with intimacy and things like that, you know, those are unknown if you haven't met with a an educator or you haven't had a friend or even a health care provider that's kind of talked to you through that. So I think once people understand how insulin pumps and continuous glucose sensors kind of work inside of our life, and really how easy they are. The trainings are so much more simplified today, because the therapy is so much easier, right? And so I think once they start to see they're starting to put the pieces together, like the technology is working in the background, I don't have to work as hard. Here's the the, you know, two or three things that I have to do change my infusion set once a week, change the sensor once a week, and then I have to enter some grams of carbohydrate, however those grams of carbohydrate are calculated, then they start to understand this is not as big of a deal.   Stacey Simms  42:09 All right, I have to go back. You said the five S's and then I kind of heard you editing as you went, you can say six on this podcast. But what were the other ones we had sleep swim.   Heather Lackey  42:18 So fleet that were when boarding and zek?   Stacey Simms  42:22 That's great. I love that list. That's a great list. All right, before I let you go, I can't let you leave without talking about Purple Hearts, this Netflix movie that you were a consultant on, right? Tell me a little bit about what happened there. This is a character that has type one. And she marries a marine to get benefits health benefits. And it's a very romantic story. How did you come to be a consultant on that? And what was it like? Well, what was so interesting   Heather Lackey  42:46 about this, I mean, it was I mean, what a one and a life champ or V I mean, it was really great. The director, or producer, I think it was the director, she had reached out to Medtronic, specifically, because she was, you know, obviously going to be doing this movie, and the hurt. So her team had reached out to Medtronic. And she really wanted to one US product in the movie. But I guess her colleagues and friends and and others that he had talked to whenever she mentioned that this character was going to have type 1 diabetes. They were all like, Yeah, well, we, you know, we've learned that Medtronic pump for, you know, years and years. And so that's why she reached out, right, so reached out to our communications team and our marketing team. And those teams were so great to say, hey, look, they're going to be using a pump and sensor on the set, they might need to have some help. Just making sure that everything is used correctly. And you know, you're always in film, in movies, etc. Whenever I see things being used in an incorrect way. So yeah, so anyway, I was able to go out on the set. And then, you know, one thing just kind of led to another and they were like, well, you know, we're gonna need someone to train. You know, Sophia Carson is the actress. I mean, like, what an amazing thing to be able to beat her and all the other dudes amazing talent on that, that and they were like, Why don't you I mean that you do this? So why don't you just do this in the movie. And I was so happy that that tiny little piece was not cut it, it was such an important thing for my friends and family to be able to see so. And it really does kind of make people with type one I've heard over and over it was kind of cool for the film to kind of walk through people without type 1 diabetes. Like there's a trainee, you know, like, we have to get to understand how to use this equipment. And it's kind of the big day whenever you go on an insulin pump. The coolest thing about the scene that I was in with Sophia Carson, whenever she we finished the scene and she got on the system and we had everything is moving and working at and it was it was there. She was like, Heather, this is amazing that people go through this. And then she was like, gonna give you a hug like this is like I feel empowered having this system on me whenever I'm playing a character that has type 1 diabetes, so it was very organic and natural. And that wasn't anywhere in the script, you know. So it was just a true testament to how powerful technology is and people with diabetes. Five,   Stacey Simms  45:31 is there going to be a second one?   Heather Lackey  45:32 I have pushed. I have said, I hope that there is everybody wants to know what happened to those two characters. I don't know about it, but I would I would love to see a second movie as well.   Stacey Simms  45:45 That'd be great. Well, we will leave it there. Thank you so much for sharing so much of your time with me. I would love to have you back on to talk more about this system. We still have a lot of questions. I'm sure we just scratched the surface. But I really appreciate your time. Thanks so much for sharing so much information.   Unknown Speaker  45:59 Thank you Stacey. Have a great day.   Stacey Simms  46:05 You're listening to Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms. Lutz where information with diabetes dash connections.com. I know we didn't get to all of your questions. I will definitely talk to the folks from Medtronic. Again, I thought Heather was really terrific. And she laid everything out. I loved her five S's. But you should also know that the 780 G she mentioned this. It's currently approved for users seven years old and above with type one, they have started taking pre orders that happened in the middle of May, and they will be shipping later this summer. throughout the US. If you have a 770 G, you will be eligible for a free upgrade through remote software. If you want to be notified more, you can go there's a link in the show notes and get their upgrade notification newsletter. So just go to diabetes connections.com Click on this episode's homepage. It'll give you all the information that you need. I'm taking a deep breath because as I have been telling you, my May was bananas. It was wonderful. It was busy and all the best ways. But I mean, I went to Ireland at the beginning of the month. Then I went to New Orleans for my daughter's graduation. Then we had a giant family reunion at my house. So hopefully as you're hearing this, nothing that busy has popped up for the month of June. What I do have on the calendar is the ADA Scientific Sessions conference toward the end of this month. I have never been to this. I've always tried to make it but it's never worked out. So I have immediate pass. I have my microphones packed Well, not yet, really. But I am going to be going and talking to all of these companies. I'll be putting stuff in the Facebook group. So please join Diabetes Connections, the group or sign up for our newsletter. And you can do that at diabetes dash connections.com Because I'm gonna be asking what you want here, who do you want me to talk to what questions you want me to ask. I'm going to try to do a whole bunch of interviews while I'm there and set up a whole bunch more. You can always email me Stacey at diabetes connections.com. I'm super excited about going to this event and really hoping to bring your questions to more of these folks. As I mentioned at the beginning of the show, I am scheduled to talk to beta bionics about the eyelet so that should be next week's episode. And of course we have in the news this Friday to fill you in if there are any more FDA approvals a there's more stuff in front of them. This has been a really interesting year so far, and we're not halfway through. Thank you to my editor John Buchanan, audio editing solutions. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Stacey Simms. I'll see you back here soon until the end. Be kind to yourself.  

"Explore The Life Of Duke Edmund In Middle Ages England" This podcast introduces Quantum Healing Hypnosis Therapy and welcomes the audience to a unique session that involves channeling with the Archangels and a past life regression. The session begins with a struggle to push away negative energies that were trying to keep Archangel Metatron from speaking. After the energies were pushed away, Metatron gives Travis (who is in hypnosis/trance) the memories of his past life. He goes immediately to that life. Sarah talks to the being in that life in order to get information about who he is/was. The speaker is revealed to be a Duke in England in the late Middle Ages named Edmund. Edmund is describing a castle that he sees, saying that it is big and that there is a bridge going across some dirty water. He realizes that it is his castle and that he is royalty. He is wearing a dark red robe with white trim, greenish pants and a gray shirt with a lot of jewelry. He has a black hat on his head. Someone in that scene calls him Sir Edmund. He says that he is in the castle with a lot of people, and there is a woman beside them who he recognizes as his wife. He said it seems to be his birthday. He looks at his wife and discovers that she is also his wife in the future, Sarah, who is the practitioner conducting the past life regression. He asks his wife questions about who he is and where he lives and she says he is "The Duke of York, Sir Edmund". She is laughing at him for asking such a question. She asks him why he is acting so strangely. Edmund goes to his quarters to be able to focus on the voice in his head asking him questions. Edmund is confused by the situation and is asking questions. Sarah explains that she is from the future and that she is trying to learn more about his life. We learn about his life, what he does day to day, and other information pertinent to his life. Edmund is the son of King Edward. It is the year 1332 in the future, he is having a birthday party. The party consists of eating food, drinking ale, and listening to English music. Edmund is fascinated by the conversation and the person's life in the future. Sarah asks him what he does for fun and he says that he likes to hunt ducks and wild boar. He mentions that he has a memory problem due to a blow to the head earlier in life. The royal family does not tell anyone about his memory problems. Edmund says they are concerned about going to war and that he has a lieutenant. Sarah moves him forward to another important day in that life, and we find Edmund in battle. He is fighting in battle. He says guns have recently been invented but they still fight with swords. He is sword fighting as he speaks. Suddenly he is stabbed in the heart. Sarah asks him what happens after that. He says he is floating. She asks him to tell her what happens as he floats upwards. He floats out of his body and into the light. In the light, Edmund continues to talk about what is happening. He explains what the beings look like and what happens after death and the light that exists beyond the physical world. He is very excited and happy and says that that he could not be more amazed by what is happening.  The past life regression ends with Metatron coming back in to speak and with Sarah asking him a few questions. He explains how important the session's message is and says that the negative energies are still trying to disrupt the session. As he is speaking, he is cut off (the recording shut off). Sarah explains what happened and that Travis has just come out of Trance and that they are going to review the recording. Travis has no memories of this session.  To see the video of this session on YouTube, go to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izhSPf7IXMU&t=3684s Timestamps 0:00:00 Quantum Healing Hypnosis Session: Channeling with the Archangels and Past Life Regression of Edmund 0:03:10 Conversation between Edmund and Sarah: Describing a Castle and Life as Royalty 0:05:55 Conversation Between Edmund and Sarah: Exploring a Past Life 0:12:46 Conversation between a Edmund and a Sarah 0:15:00 Conversation Log: War Scene and Floating Upwards 0:23:52 Conversation Log: Exploring the Light 0:26:48 Conversation between Edmund and Sarah about Reincarnation and Metatron 0:30:07 Conversation Between Sarah and Edmund about the brown man.  0:35:40 Conversation between Sarah and Edmund on Hypnosis and the Higher Self 0:38:25 Conversation Between Edmund, his Higher Self and brown man 0:41:53 Conversation between Sarah and Edmund on Reincarnation and Past Lives 0:44:58 Conversation on Life After Death: Reflections from a Past Life 0:47:46 Conversation with Metatron on Negative Energy and the Light 0:57:35 Conversation on Preparing for the Light Wave and Becoming a Spiritual Soldier 1:00:38 Heading: The Impact of the Flash on Life on Earth 1:02:51 Heading: Exploring the Fifth Dimension and Light Bodies 1:06:26 Conversation on Astral Travel and Dimensions 1:09:07 Conversation on the Flash, Source, and Negative Energy 1:13:21 Heading: Exploring Dreams and Negative Energies with Quantum Healing Hypnosis Therapy     Don't forget to rate our show and follow so that you never miss out on an episode! If you enjoy our content, please invite listeners to follow and rate the show. Thanks for visiting our Podcast. My name is Sarah Webb and I am a clairvoyant, psychic intuitive, empath, Sound Healing Practitioner and Reiki Practitioner. My husband Travis Webb is a trance channel for the Angels. Our spiritual awakening started at about the same time. I was led to Quantum Healing through my own need to heal from a serious illness, and eventually I decided to become a Quantum Healing Hypnosis pracitioner. While doing a session with Travis, we discovered his channeling gift.  We created this podcast to share portions of my hypnosis sessions and our channelings with the Angels and other high vibrational beings, as these often have helpful and interesting information for those on a spiritual awakening path.  If you enjoyed Quantum Healing with the Angels, please subscribe - and share our podcast with others!  It will help us to continue to bring you new content. For more information on Quantum Healing or how to set up a session with me, please email me at bqhsarahwebb@gmail.com or contact me through my website at www.sarah-webb.com. Beyond Quantum Healing (BQH), and Quantum Healing Hypnosis Therapy (QHHT) that can help you clear and release patterns, self-heal, explore past lives and much more! Go to https://www.sarah-webb.com/ to schedule your session today!  Please allow 24-48 hours for a response. Thank you! Find all my info at www.beyondquantumhealer.com Or go to each directly:  Email: bqhsarahwebb@gmail.com ⁠Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beyondquantumhealer/ Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@beyondquantumhealer Beacons: https://beacons.ai.beyondquantumhealer YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@sarah-webb To learn Beyond Quantum Healing enroll here: https://www.quantumhealers.com/bqh  Enter promo code SARAHW10 for 10% off.  Sarah & Travis You are a powerful being!   Travis Webb  0:51   Hello friends, and welcome to quantum healing with the Angels. We have a very unique session to share with you today. This is a session where we were planning on doing the channeling with the angels. However, it turned into a past life regression. We didn't expect this to happen but it ended up being kind of funny. It also allowed me to get more information about my past life as a Duke in England in the late Middle Ages named Edmund. There is also a lot of information about what happens after we die,and what the light is like. So with that, we hope you enjoy our channeling with the Archangels and my past life as Edmund. Archangel Metatron  1:46   This is Metatron. Hello Metatron. There are negative energies trying to keep me from speaking. Messing with the vocal cords. We are pushing away the negative energies. They are trying to keep us from speaking. One moment please. There is a lot of negative energy, trying to keep him from speaking. They are trying to frustrate you. I am calling other angels and his higher self to help.  They do not want us to get the message out. Yes. Okay. All is well now. Sarah Webb  2:33   Okay. Good. Thank you for coming through today. Archangel Metatron  2:37   This being asked me, he was very curious about his only past life. He is really wanting to know about his past life. Yes, yes. This being is telling me that he wants to know about his higher self. He told me that he's been curious about it. Sarah Webb  2:58   Okay. I've been curious myself. I've been wanting to know.  Archangel Metatron  3:02   I am going to give him the memories of his last life right now. Sarah Webb  3:13   Hi, Who am I speaking with? Hi. We're just talking with you. We're just talking with you trying to learn a little bit more about this life that you're in. Let me know what you see around you. Edmund (through Travis)  3:30   I see a see a castle. You see a castle? Yeah, tell me more about that castle. I'm gonna turn the fan on. Go ahead and describe that castle to me. Sarah Webb  3:46   It's big. It's big. And it's mine! Tell me more about that. More about that. What does it look like? You said it's big. Edmund (through Travis)  4:00   Has a big bridge and it's going across some water. Some dirty water. Sarah Webb  4:06   Dirty water. Edmund (through Travis)  4:08   In this is big and I've got all these people around me I think I am royalty. Sarah Webb  4:19   Take a look at yourself in this place. Tell me, so you have a body? Yeah. What What color's your skin? Edmund (through Travis)  4:29   It's tan white. Sarah Webb  4:33   Like a whitish tan? Yes and I have a robe and What color is your Edmund (through Travis)  4:41   robe of dark red with white trim. Sarah Webb  4:45   Oh wow. Edmund (through Travis)  4:46   I have on greenish pants, a gray shirt, with a lot of jewelry. Sarah Webb  4:57   What kind of jewelry is it? Gold? Edmund (through Travis)  5:00   Gold with bright rhinestones and diamonds and wow. Hey, hey, Sarah Webb  5:08   you wearing anything on your head? Um, Edmund (through Travis)  5:11   a black hat, a black hat. Somebody just called me Edmund. Sarah Webb  5:17   called you who? Edmund. Edmund. Travis  5:20   Edmund. My name is Edmund. Oh, Sarah Webb  5:24   Edmund. Okay. Edmund (through Travis)  5:25   They called me Sir Edmund. Sarah Webb  5:27   Sir Edmund okay. Edmund (through Travis)  5:30   Yes, I'm in the castle now. All of these people giving me stuff where? I think it's my birthday. We're at a big table. Think there's a woman beside me? Think she's my wife and Sarah Webb  5:47   look into her eyes. Do you recognize her from this life? Edmund (through Travis)  5:53   She is my wife. You know her spiritually? On a different level? Sarah Webb  6:02   Look deeply into her eyes. Edmund (through Travis)  6:04   Oh my god. Sarah Webb  6:08   Is it someone you recognize? Edmund (through Travis)  6:10   All over she's my wife. Okay. I've seen her before but she looked different. She's my wife in the future. Sarah Webb  6:23   Oh, she's your wife in the future. Edmund (through Travis)  6:26   Way in the future. Way in the future. But I see her. I see her now. She's like, she's my wife. She's, we're not the king and queen. We are something else but we're royalty. You're royalty? Sarah Webb  6:48   In this place, you said it's your birthday? Edmund (through Travis)  6:51   Yes. They baked me, it looks like a cake, but it's a little messy looking but it looks like a cake. Okay. They say happy birthday dear Edmund. Okay. My wife just laughed at me. I asked her, who am I? She's Sarah Webb  7:14   laughs. She says you know who you are. She said what? Edmund (through Travis)  7:20   She said, "You are,  you are the Duke Sir Edmund." I was like, okay. And she said, "What is wrong with you?" (laughs) Sarah Webb  7:28   (laughing) What is her title? What is her title? Can you ask her, or will she think you're crazy? Edmund (through Travis)  7:41   she says, "I'm the Duchess." Sarah Webb  7:44   She's the Duchess. Okay. Travis  7:46   She's asked me why I'm asking all these weird questions. Edmund (through Travis)  7:49   (laughing) Haha, haha, I said, "Where Travis  7:53   are we?" And she said, "WHAT?" Sarah Webb  7:57   Oh, my goodness. She says ,"You're in York." Edmund (through Travis)  8:00   I said, "Okay." Okay. Okay, so Sarah Webb  8:02   you're in York. Now in the future...do you know what her name is in the future? Travis  8:16   Am I talking to myself? Someone's asking me questions. Yes. Yes. Sarah Webb  8:24   It's okay. It's you. It. Yes. I'm your wife in the future. I, my name is Sarah. We are talking to you Edmund (through Travis)  8:34   How can you be my wife in the future? I am Edmund. Yes, yes, that's okay. Sarah Webb  8:45   It's okay. Go ahead and tell me more about what's happening in that life. Edmund (through Travis)  8:50   Oh! My wife is mad at me. I told her I was talking to my wife in the future. And she said, "Are you crazy?" Sarah Webb  9:00   (silently laughing) Maybe you can just tell her that um...you just got confused for a minute maybe. Don't worry. Edmund (through Travis)  9:09   I just told her I am going to the bathroom. I can't have all of these people speaking to me at once. Yeah. To talk to you. I'm going into my court. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, Sarah Webb  9:25   are you aware that I'm asking you questions? Edmund (through Travis)  9:29   Yes I am but I feel like I'm talking to my, I can't see you. I can't see you. That's okay. I can't have everyone talking to me all at once so I had to go into my quarters. Yes. Speaker 4  9:42   I am your wife in the future. You can see me if you look in your mind. You can see me. It might be a little weird. Edmund (through Travis)  9:54   Am I gonna live that long? Speaker 4  9:56   (quietly laughing) No, no. I don't know if this will, if this will confuse you, but you actually live Travis  10:08   I'm already confused? What is going on? Sarah Webb  10:12   Well, I don't want to confuse you. There's nothing to be concerned about. Nothing to be worried about. I'm just asking you a question. You are in the future and you want in the future to know about your past life. And so we are exploring that past life is a past life. A past life. When we come to the earth, we are living our lives. To have an experience we are spiritual beings having a physical experience a human experience. We are done with our lives we go to the light we can come back and live another life form our experience Edmund (through Travis)  11:06   we when we die we go to heaven. That's what we do. Sarah Webb  11:11   Yes, you could call it that. Travis  11:14   I guess there is a light in heaven. Sarah Webb  11:16   Yes, there is there is. So you know about that. Travis  11:22   That we come back? We don't stay in heaven? Is that what you're telling me? Well, Sarah Webb  11:31   if you want to you can. (What!?) If you want to learn more, you can, yes. So you do have a life in the future with me and I am your wife and it sounds like I'm you're same wife and see I didn't know that either. I'm talking to you across time. (Edmund gasps) I don't want to upset you though. I want you to just breathe and relax. Edmund (through Travis)  11:59   I am going to keep this to myself. Because I am not going to anybody this because I will be killed. Speaker 4  12:06   Do not do not tell anyone. Do not tell anyone this in your time and place do not tell anyone else. (whispered "okay" from Edmund) That is very smart. Very wise. Yes. You're very wise in the future as well. (quiet "okay" from Edmund). This is so exciting for me to talk to you. Because I do this with people but I never really have such an experience where where the person is...it's across time like this. It is very exciting for me as well. So I am also excited about this is so interesting. May I ask you questions about your life, there? Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And how did you know that, how did you know that you had a wife in the future? You, you told me that, actually. Did you just you just know that in your mind? Speaker 5  13:10   Why do I feel like I'm not really here? This is so strange. Oh. You are really there. Sarah Webb  13:19   Why don't you tell me more if you would about what your life is like there? Speaker 3  13:25   I guess I am royalty I I Help people of York and they serve me they serve me but I'm not the king she is not the queen, I am royalty. Speaker 5  13:44   We don't have all of the power. We, my father Edward is the king. You said your father? My father is king Edward. Unknown Speaker  13:55   Your father is... so are you also Edward? Speaker 5  13:58   no my father is Edward? Oh, Speaker 3  14:02   I am Edmund. My father is the king of England. Speaker 4  14:08   Okay, okay. Oh, is he EdWARD? Yes. Oh, I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you. Okay, so he's Ed-ward. And you are Ed-mond. Edmund (through Travis)  14:18   Yes. Okay, all right. I am his son. Sarah Webb  14:22   I see. And what year is it? In your time? Travis  14:27   It is 1332 Sarah Webb  14:29   Okay. Well, Happy birthday! And you're having a birthday party? We are having a party? Yes. So what is happening at this party? Edmund (through Travis)  14:44   Eating food. Lots of ale. Lots of ale. Yes. Music. Sarah Webb  14:54   Music Okay, who? What kind of music is it? Edmund (through Travis)  14:58   It is English music. Sarah Webb  15:00   Are there certain instruments that are played or Travis  15:05   Fiddle. Harp. The harp? Edmund (through Travis)  15:11   Yes, there's a harp. And a fiddle. Yes, that's Sarah Webb  15:17   Is there anything else going on that's interesting that you could tell me about? Edmund (through Travis)  15:23   Everyone's singing. Sarah Webb  15:24   Everyone's singing? Yes. Where are you now? Edmund (through Travis)  15:30   I'm in my quarters. Okay. Speaker 3  15:32   I am in my quarters where it's quiet because everyone was trying to talk to me. Oh, I see. I see. You talk to too many people at once. I wanted to go where was quiet so I could speak to you. Sarah Webb  15:46   Thank you. Thank you so much. So your father is the king. Does that mean your heir to the throne then? Is that true? Yes. Okay. And you are married? Yes. Okay. My wife's name is Ethel. Ethel. Okay. Edmund (through Travis)  16:08   She is my second wife. Sarah Webb  16:11   I see. Okay. And do you have children? Yes. Many children? Two. Edmund (through Travis)  16:23   Edmund and Richard. Sarah Webb  16:25   Edmund? And Richard? Edmund (through Travis)  16:28   Yes. His middle name is Edward. So we call him Edward instead of Edmund, so they wouldn't get us confused. Okay. So we call them Edward. Sarah Webb  16:39   Yeah, yeah. What is it like to live in a palace? Edmund (through Travis)  16:45   It is very easy. Yes, it sounds like it. I have everything I need. Sarah Webb  16:51   Yes. Do you travel in this place? Do you go anywhere else? Ireland and Edmund (through Travis)  16:57   Scotland, mostly. And sometimes we go to Paris. To Paris, yes. What's what is Paris like? It is very nice. But they do not like us very much. They do not like people from England very much. So we stay here most of the time. We do not want to create a war. Sarah Webb  17:22   Is there anything else happening in this place that we should know about Edmund (through Travis)  17:26   at this time? We are trying to keep from war. But we know there's a war looming. A war. Yes. Yeah. Sarah Webb  17:39   Yeah. You're trying to keep it from happening, but you know that it's looming? Yes. I have every one to take care of that for me because I have problems with my memory. Your memory? Yes. Oh, now, did something happened to cause that? Or? I hit Edmund (through Travis)  18:03   my head very hard when I fell off a horse. So I have all of my soldiers, mainly my general, I let him keep in charge of the war. Because I can't keep track of everything because of my memory. And they do not want to let anyone know I have a bad memory because it would make me look bad. So I let them take care of all of it. Okay. I don't even remember who we might be at war with. Archangel Metatron  18:40   But I do know when we go to war, Edmund (through Travis)  18:43   I would have to lead them in battle. So my general is always beside me. Sarah Webb  18:49   Okay. That's good. He is also my lieutenant. Your lieutenant. He is both. Oh, he said he's both okay. How old, can you tell me your age? Edmund (through Travis)  19:04   I am 41. Sarah Webb  19:07   All right. What do you like to do for fun? Do you do anything for fun? Hunting, hunting, Edmund (through Travis)  19:15   fishing. That's what I do mostly. Sarah Webb  19:21   Do you like doing those things? Edmund (through Travis)  19:24   Yes. Sometimes I will do jousting, but not mainly. Archangel Metatron  19:34   I love hunting more Sarah Webb  19:37   to hunt with the gun. Edmund (through Travis)  19:40   Yes. What do you hunt? Ducks and wild boar? Ducks and wild boar. Sarah Webb  19:49   And then what kind of food are you. are you having? Besides, you said there was a cake. What else is there? Travis  19:57   There is a wild boar on the table. Sarah Webb  19:59   Mm hmm. Yeah, Turkey. Turkey Turkey Yeah. That sounds good. Pears, Pears. Apples and pears? Grapes, all kinds of fruit are there other desserts any desserts? Sweet things? Travis  20:28   Some pies Edmund (through Travis)  20:34   Biscuits biscuits. Okay. Biscuits. Like the kind of biscuits you have with tea? Yes. Okay. Yes. Let me have you drift and float, Sarah Webb  20:51   drift and float to another day in your life when something important is happening Archangel Metatron  21:01   We are at war.  You are at war? I am fighting in the war. Who you are at war with? Travis  21:15   I'm not sure Sarah Webb  21:17   That's okay. That's okay. How's your memory doing? You struggling with that? Are you in pain? Edmund (through Travis)  21:28   I'm having to kill people. Sarah Webb  21:31   Oh no. Are you in a battle right now? Edmund (through Travis)  21:34   Yes, we are at war. Yes. Sarah Webb  21:37   You're fighting in the war. Travis  21:40   The guns the guns are Edmund (through Travis)  21:43   they're fairly new but we've mainly fight with swords. The guns work not very well. So we mainly fight with swords. Sarah Webb  21:55   So are you fighting with a sword right now? Edmund (through Travis)  21:57   Mostly with swords Guns are new, but we don't use them much because they're new. We just main (cries out) fighting with swords. Sarah Webb  22:08   What are you seeing, as you see the scene? Travis  22:11   People being.. (groans) I am telling people what to do. Sarah Webb  22:22   Is it difficult to do that?  Edmund (through Travis)  22:25   Ah....AHHH!!!  Sarah Webb  22:28   What has happened? (Faintly) Stabbed in the heart.... You got stabbed in the heart? Edmund (through Travis)  22:33   Stabbed in the heart.  Sarah Webb  22:36   Oh! Edmund (through Travis)  22:37   Ahh! Sarah Webb  22:38   Oh no. I'm so sorry. Tell me what is happening. After you're stabbed in the heart. Travis  22:46   I fell to the ground. Very blurry, blurry, I can't see.  Sarah Webb  22:53   Tell me Edmund (through Travis)  22:55   ahh, see, Sarah Webb  22:56   after this happens. What happens to you Edmund (through Travis)  23:00   I'm floating I'm floating... Floating? Sarah Webb  23:02   Okay. Travis  23:03   I see the sword inside me Sarah Webb  23:06   as you're floating up Edmund (through Travis)  23:08   Hah..(out of breath) Sarah Webb  23:09   Can you see? Can you look down and see yourself? Travis  23:12   I see people running on the ground, I'm floating. Yes, yes. I can see water Edmund (through Travis)  23:21   You're floating upwards. Floating (sounds tired) up with.... yes. Do you feel better now? I don't feel the pain anymore. Sarah Webb  23:33   Right, yes. Tell me let's follow this experience and tell me where you go. I see light. You see light? A big light What happens when you go to the light? Are you going to the light? Edmund (through Travis)  23:51   They are greeting me there's all kinds of people here. Sarah Webb  23:57   Oh, Edmund (through Travis)  23:58   Different k...what is that? Sarah Webb  24:00   What is it? What do you see? Can you tell me? Edmund (through Travis)  24:05   It looks like a man but he has three eyes. I see a man with three eyes but I also see regular people that look like me they're also made of light. They're really bright and shining. I see all kinds of different Speaker 4  24:34   Take a look at yourself in this place. Tell me what do you look like? Now that you're in the light Edmund (through Travis)  24:42   I see a form but it's all light it's it's all light. There is no color. Everyone is the same color? Yes. Some look different than others. But we're all light. I see what does it? There a, there's another one with four arms, but he's all light. Four arms. They say, welcome back. Sarah Webb  25:14   Tell me they're welcoming you back. How do you know them? How do you know them?  Edmund (through Travis)  25:22   Oh, they all look familiar. Like I've seen them before. Sarah Webb  25:27   So your mind, your mind will clear up now. Edmund (through Travis)  25:30   I've seen them before. Yes. They all look different. Sarah Webb  25:35   You'll be able to see and sense and know very clearly now what is happening. Edmund (through Travis)  25:43   I know him. I know all of these people, I've seen them before! Yes, yes, tell me. They are happy that I'm back. They say welcome back, you are back. It's beautiful up here. I see everything. I see. Now I see a green pasture with flowers and everything.  Sarah Webb  26:14   Wow. Edmund (through Travis)  26:15   (Sighs) Sarah Webb  26:17   you see that in the light? Edmund (through Travis)  26:20   Yes.  Sarah Webb  26:21   Is there, Is there anything else that you see that you can tell me about? Speaker 5  26:25   I see people going through different points of light that are leaving, but they're going somewhere? I just don't. Oh, okay. Okay. kay kay kay kay. That's a man here. And he says that those people are going back into different lives. I did not know we could do that! Unknown Speaker  26:48   Yes, yes. Yes, you can do that. Speaker 5  26:52   Everything is coming back to me now is taking a little while, but it is all making sense now. Speaker 4  27:01   Yes. I didn't want to worry you earlier. But yes, you can do that. You can go to other lives. I'm talking to you from a future life. I am trying to learn where I came from, and where you came from. (Edmund starts laughing and he is sounds excited) And I'm your I'm your wife in the future when you come again.  Edmund (through Travis)  27:27   I see it! You see it. What do you see? There's a man here. Yes. Tell me about him. He's showing himself he's, dark. Sarah Webb  27:42   He's dark? What does he say?  Edmund (through Travis)  27:50   He's a brown skinned man. Yes. He is looking at me. He looks confused. (Edmund starts giggling) Ah ha hahahahaha! I am him! Hahaha! Yes. I am him in the future!  Sarah Webb  28:10   Yes! Edmund (through Travis)  28:11   I am going to be a dark man in the future! Sarah Webb  28:14   Yes, you are! (both start laughing) Yes.  Edmund (through Travis)  28:18   It's amazing! Sarah Webb  28:20   It is, isn't it? Isn't it so amazing! Edmund (through Travis)  28:27   He has no hair!  Sarah Webb  28:29   No, he does not, he doesn't!  Edmund (through Travis)  28:35   He says he says that I am speaking through his body in the future. But there's another being there behind him. Behind him telling him what to tell me. The being behind him is also talking to me. Sarah Webb  28:59   Who's that? Who is behind him? Edmund (through Travis)  29:03   What? Metatron, he says his name is Metatron. Metatron is talking to the brown being. The brown being is saying what Metatron is saying but he's also telling me, it's very confusing! He's telling me Sarah Webb  29:22   (laughing) it's a little confusing. Yes. The, uh, Metatron is an archangel. Do you remember that? Edmund (through Travis)  29:32   I know that now. Yes. Sarah Webb  29:35   And he helps. He helps people Speaker 4  29:39   to speak like that. Yes, yes. Speaker 4  29:44   That's how he has explained it or they have explained it to me. Edmund (through Travis)  29:47   Okay, Sarah Webb  29:49   is that they help Edmund (through Travis)  29:50   Now I get it. Sarah Webb  29:52   the people yes to speak, to come through and speak. So that's it how, that's how I understand it. You can tell me if it's different.  Edmund (through Travis)  30:07   The brown man is very daft! Sarah Webb  30:11   Very daft. Edmund (through Travis)  30:12   Yes. Sarah Webb  30:13   What does daft mean? Travis  30:15   Funny. Funny? Oh, this is amazing. Yes. Sarah Webb  30:24   You're starting to remember more and more? Edmund (through Travis)  30:27   I remember everything now. Sarah Webb  30:29   Oh, that is great. What did you say? Edmund (through Travis)  30:36   Everything's clear. Yes, yes. Can you see me? Speaker 5  30:43   No. you just look like a bright light.  Sarah Webb  30:50   Okay. (laughing) Edmund (through Travis)  30:52   You look like Metatron. Oh, is a light you are a light. I can see the brown man. Yes. But he is not here with me. But I can see him on another plane. Yes. Yes. He is listening to everything I say. Sarah Webb  31:15   Yes, he is. You are seeing it now. Yes. Wow. He, in the future, this brown man has wondered about his past life, as you Travis  31:33   Okay! Sarah Webb  31:37   Does that make better sense? Yes. Yes. He wanted to know. And we have learned how to speak to, to our past selves in other lifetimes. Does that mean amazing? It is amazing. We think it is amazing too. (both are laughing) We did not know we could do this either. We just discovered it. Not very long ago, from from the time where I live. Edmund (through Travis)  32:09   That is absolutely bonkers. Sarah Webb  32:13   Truly, I have to agree with you. It just kind of bonkers, isn't it? Edmund (through Travis)  32:20   Yes, yes. Wow. Speaker 4  32:25   So you know Metatron very well, then. Here. Do you remember that? Edmund (through Travis)  32:31   I do now. I did not know that before. Speaker 4  32:35   Yes. Yes. Yes. So what else is happening there in the light? What do you do in the light? Unknown Speaker  32:42   It is very nice up here. Unknown Speaker  32:44   Yes, that's what I've heard. Speaker 3  32:47   I am still tied to the earth a little bit, I can feel Edmund (through Travis)  32:54   My wife is very sad. But I also know that she would not be sad, forever.  Sarah Webb  33:02   Yeah, yeah. That's a really good message. We may share this. In your time, I don't think that you can do this, but we can record what we are saying and we can share that with people. And so what you are saying may help people to understand how all of this works. Edmund (through Travis)  33:30   I actually understand what you're talking about. Sarah Webb  33:33   Do you? Edmund (through Travis)  33:34   Yes.  Sarah Webb  33:35   Well, that makes sense. Because now you have all the knowledge. Edmund (through Travis)  33:39   There's no time here. I understand what you're talking about. Speaker 4  33:45   Yes. You probably understand it better than me to be honest, where I am now. Edmund (through Travis)  33:53   This would have been very weird for me on earth. Sarah Webb  33:55   Yes, I did not want to scare you. I wasn't sure where to go with that, because you, I didn't expect you to hear me as a voice. Edmund (through Travis)  34:07   Everything here, there's no reason to be scared here. Everyone is happy. There is no pain. But everything has come back to me now. I totally understand!  Sarah Webb  34:19   This is wonderful. Thank you for telling us this is good to know. Because some of us don't know, you know, and people are afraid. They're afraid.  Edmund (through Travis)  34:35   Are you telling me I can know more than you.  Sarah Webb  34:40   Yes!  Edmund (through Travis)  34:41   How is that possible? You look exactly like Metatron, and that Metatron knows everything! Sarah Webb  34:49   I think it is because I am in a life right now. And so I cannot remember Edmund (through Travis)  34:55   that is right. You are in a life! You are like the brown Man I am looking at Sarah Webb  35:02   Yes I am his wife in the future Speaker 3  35:04   I can see that now, because I'm looking at him and then he had he has a glow around him but you have a brighter light. Weird, that is very weird Unknown Speaker  35:20   What did you say?  Edmund (through Travis)  35:22   he has a glow around him. It is very weird for me to see that I understand what is happening. Yes. He is talking through me. Yes, yes. But I am inside of his body. Sarah Webb  35:40   Yes. Yes. This is so strange, isn't it? Edmund (through Travis)  35:45   I am in the light right now, but I can feel the air around me! I FEEL the air around me! I can feel things through his body. This is AMAZING! Speaker 4  36:01   (bursts in to laughter) You're in our home, you're laying on our sofa, yes, there is a soft, can you feel the thing behind your head? Speaker 3  36:11   The reason this is amazing is that I can feel everything but I cannot see. Speaker 4  36:22   So, you can't, can you look down at the Earth? It's Edmund (through Travis)  36:28   I can not see through his body. I feel that his eyes are closed. I can feel everything but I can't see anything. I am actually trying to open his eyes but I cannot do it. I think I do not suppose to do that because earth has a lot of negative energy. Feeling that energy is easy to keep away negative energy Speaker 3  37:01   You do not need to see anything on Earth because Earth is in a three dimensional statis.  Speaker 4  37:13   You're right, right. It is a is a dense place. It is a place where we come to learn. So it's not like being in the light. Yes, that's true. And the brown man, which is you, Yes. another part of you or aspect of you, he's in hypnosis right now. That is what we call it. Where his eyes are closed and it is sort of like he's sleeping, but not really.. Edmund (through Travis)  37:43   yes, I understand it now. Okay, that is exactly right. Speaker 4  37:49   Yes. I'm sure you you could probably get a something come to your mind up there, what did we think of as the mind to see the scene here, but you don't have to come here to see it.  Edmund (through Travis)  38:05   Yes. Oh hohohoho! Sarah Webb  38:07   Can you see it now? Can you see him and me and where we are in the house? Edmund (through Travis)  38:12   Yes! I also see is what you call his higher self? His Higher Self says I sound exactly like him. Speaker 4  38:25   You do! You sound exactly like his higher self. We have talked to his Higher Self many times your higher self it is the same. Edmund (through Travis)  38:35   Amazing! Hahaha! (giggles). Speaker 4  38:39   Wow. So yes. Is it weird? Is it weird to have another aspect of you?  Edmund (through Travis)  38:49   No! I love it! This amazing! I can do all of these things now. I could not do this on Earth! (laughing) Sarah Webb  38:57    Yes. They tell us that there are no rules there. Edmund (through Travis)  39:04   There are no rules here!   Sarah Webb  39:06   Yes. And that is all happiness. Edmund (through Travis)  39:10   Everything is happy! Sarah Webb  39:12   Yes.  Edmund (through Travis)  39:12   Everyone is smiling! Sarah Webb  39:14   Yes. It's so great compared to  Edmund (through Travis)  39:18   there are actually people listening to this right now! They are around listening to this conversation! Sarah Webb  39:26   No! Really? Okay, now you're blowing my mind. This. Wow. Edmund (through Travis)  39:33   This is amazing! Sarah Webb  39:35   It is!  Edmund (through Travis)  39:36   I cannot say it enough! Sarah Webb  39:38   I don't know if I can say it enough! I am right there with you. Wow. Edmund (through Travis)  39:43   The brown man is very dapper. Sarah Webb  39:47   He does dress nicely - is that what you mean? Yes, yes. Yes. Edmund (through Travis)  39:53   THIS is AMAZING! I cannot even! Sarah Webb  40:00   He is has been so curious about you, so curious. He has felt a connection to England. And he did not know why. He would see the green, the the pictures of the green the beautiful, yes, country in England and he felt a connection and he didn't understand why he felt so connected to it. We didn't know why. We would see. Well, in your time, you wouldn't have understood this in your other life, but now you would. On our television. He has watched TV, our television, and watched a show with castles in it. Uh huh. And he liked that show very much because it reminded him I guess of your of you, I guess. Edmund (through Travis)  40:56   Ah, yes. Yes. Sarah Webb  40:59   So he really liked the way people talked and the castles and the countryside, and how pretty, yeah, Edmund (through Travis)  41:09   He remembers what the Reading Abbey. That is where I lived on Earth. Reading Abbey. Oh, my goodness. That was my home.  Sarah Webb  41:28   This is just, this is astounding. Okay. Yes, he watched a, uh. I don't know what it's called in real life. The show is called Downton Abbey, but that is a made up name. Let me see if there's a real name or I don't know if it was in your time, I don't think so. Highclere Castle. I don't know if you know that place. Edmund (through Travis)  41:52   Highclere Castle. Sarah Webb  41:54   Do you know that place? Edmund (through Travis)  41:57   That castle was not built yet when I was down there but for some reason, I know that castle.  Sarah Webb  42:04   You do? Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. Edmund (through Travis)  42:08   That is believable. I love it up here. I remember everything. I know EVERYTHING! Sarah Webb  42:23   So it's pretty fun to be there? Edmund (through Travis)  42:26   So, when we depart the Earth when we come here, we know everything. Everything is clear. Sarah Webb  42:38   Wow. I'm learning from you. Ah. What did you learn in my life that that you were when were your Edmund? What did you learn? What did your  Edmund (through Travis)  42:51   life, and Metatron is telling me that is the only light past life that this being has had. Sarah Webb  43:04   It is true. Yes. Edmund (through Travis)  43:06   The brown man that I see is what I, me went back to us because I wanted to start from scratch. I was born on Earth with everything. I had everything. And I wanted to go back to Earth with nothing. So I can build from that and make my own riches. My own worth. Yeah, yes. And I wanted to be another being. So I guess that's why I picked the brown man. Sarah Webb  43:46   Yes, yes. Did you plan that with others? Yes. Okay. Metatron also told me which I know now is that you were my wife then. And you are my wife in the present. And see I did not know that. Edmund (through Travis)  44:10   You are my wife in the past? Sarah Webb  44:13   Yes. I did not know I did not know that. I was in that life. I didn't know that. Edmund (through Travis)  44:18   I know that now. Me and you planned this? Yes. This is amazing, I cannot say it enough! haha! Sarah Webb  44:36   It is pretty amazing! (giggles) Yes, we are doing uh, we are helping people in this life. You have many talents in this life. Edmund (through Travis)  44:56   Haha! I love it. I absolutely love it. Yes, I am. I am. This is amazing. You actually helped me pass over. It's like it's just happened. But it didn't. It happened.  Sarah Webb  45:18   Really? I helped you? Edmund (through Travis)  45:24   In the year. 13.. I think it was 1341 I think, I think I think it was 1341 when I died, but it feels like it just happened. But it happened a long time ago. And I'm talking to my wife. Sarah Webb  45:47   I just left. It feels like I just left her. But it wasn't. It was a long time ago. But there's no time here. It almost feels like it just happened. But it didn't it happened a long time ago. From your time on Earth. This is INCREDIBLE! I was going to ask, yes. Is that because there's no time there that it feels like it just happened? Edmund (through Travis)  46:11   There is no time here! Travis  46:15   Wow. Wow. Sarah Webb  46:18   What else do we need to know? About About the light? And when we cross over? And is there anything else you can tell the brown man, his name is Travis by the way, in this life. Edmund (through Travis)  46:36   Ah, yes. Yes. That is his name. Sarah Webb  46:40   Yes. Yes. Is there anything else you can tell him about that life? Or will you be able to connect with him now? Edmund (through Travis)  46:50   I will be able to connect with him. Okay, I was on that planet, and that time was fairly easy. And yeah, sounds like everything that happened in that life was the death, honestly, the marriage and the death. Most of the marriages then were basically all the same. Very royal, everyone did the same thing. They actually still do it the same way in your time. So they never really looked that different. His life was pretty simple because he had everything, everything was given to him, and his children, he raised his children so his life was fairly boring, because he had everything. So there's really nothing else to tell about that life, actually, that's why he wanted to come back in this new life, because he wanted everything to be harder, Sarah Webb  48:11   Really?  Edmund (through Travis)  48:12   But he will get his reward, before. He will get more riches. And it will be soon. That's what I can tell you. Most of it has something to do what you're doing right now. And there is another thing that you and him are doing. And now that I'm here in the light, it sounds like they say, photographs. I know what photographs are now, I would have had no idea what that was on my earthly life. But now I know what that is. Sarah Webb  48:57   Yes. It's like an image of yourself. Maybe kind of like a painting but taken with something. A device Edmund (through Travis)  49:07   Metatron just gave me a viewer. It is very weird. Sarah Webb  49:13   Yes, Edmund (through Travis)  49:14   But it takes photographs. He actually just gave me every device that use for photographs all at once. So now I know everything that you use for photographs up to this time. They're very weird looking. Sarah Webb  49:31   So you can  Archangel Metatron  49:32   Very weird devices. Sarah Webb  49:36   So you can learn that quickly in that in that place. In the light. Edmund (through Travis)  49:41   Once you pass over you know everything. Wow. You have no fear you have no fear of anything. You know everything. When you're, on earth, you're an earthly being so you are scared of everything. Yes, You are taught certain things. In fact now that I just realized it that all religion down there was pretty much made up. Yes, yes. They still practice it now in your time. That is incredible. I know I would never have known that would last that long. I know the most thing that everyone only has to know about is the Light. There is no hell. l was taught down there about a hell. Now that I'm up here, there's no hell. Sarah Webb  50:38   No, no. No,  Edmund (through Travis)  50:41   Unfortunately, it's gonna take a lot of people to learn. There's no hell yeah. The thing about being in the Light, you don't even get upset up here. I am not even upset that everything that I was taught down there, was a complete lie. Now that I'm here, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter here. Sarah Webb  51:05   So why do we do these lives? Sometimes we think that we are crazy for coming here. And doing this, especially when we make it a hard life. Edmund (through Travis)  51:17   I just learned really quick when I got here. Okay. that's the main reason why we go back down back is because of the war. There is a war against negative energy. Yes, yes. Yes. The light is an energy, and there's also a negative energy. The light is stronger than the negative energy. The negative energy is mostly just a nuisance. Yes. It is a nuisance, especially for people on Earth. People on Earth fight negative energy every day. Yes, everyone does. Sarah Webb  51:56   Now, why is the negative energy? Did you have a sense of why it is there? Or it? I think they said that it has always been there. I don't understand that though. Edmund (through Travis)  52:10   Source created negative energy. Source did? Okay, Sarah Webb  52:14   Mainly for a test, a test.  Edmund (through Travis)  52:19   I know it sounds really ordinary when I say this, but the Source wanted to have something to go against. It sounds. It might make you laugh when I say this, But the Source did not want to be bored. Everything that came from the Source was a light. He was everywhere. Everywhere was good. Everywhere was good. So since the Source is everything, the Source says, well, how about if I make something that's not so happy, just to see  what happens? He knew when he made it, he can destroy it right away. Sarah Webb  53:05   Okay, okay,  Edmund (through Travis)  53:06   You know when that's gonna happen? Everyone calls it down there, the Flash! Yes, yes! So it is coming close time to destroy the negative energy. That's why they are fighting so hard. It doesn't matter. They are not gonna win. Getting rid of it, but the Flash, we everyone on Earth would have something to do. What you're doing now with this session and other sessions is really giving people information on how to fight the negative energy. It's going to lose regardless, but it's gonna be really really fun defeating the negative energy when the Flash comes. HAHA! Sarah Webb  53:53   That was going to be my question for today. It was going to be about the negative energy, because we try to do these sessions and the negative energy fights us, now... Edmund (through Travis)  54:05   It was actually trying at the beginning of this session. They were messing with this beings vocal cords he kept coughing. They kept pulling up in his vocal cords so he could not speak. They turn up the music around you so they can hear it on the microphones. So you could not use this session. Yes. Fortunately, Metatron cut out the music? Oh, wow. That's why you do not hear the music right now. Sarah Webb  54:35   Yes, I was hearing dogs barking next door and the music. Yes. Yes. They were really trying to mess... Edmund (through Travis)  54:44   the dogs are actually still barking right now. Oh. Those dogs are light beings and they just doing what dogs do. Their energies is not having an effect on the dogs. Those beings just do that. Sarah Webb  54:59   So um, let's see. So what can we tell people about... people really want to know about the light, they're starting to wake up and become aware, just like we woke up and became aware that this was going to happen. We didn't know this in our earlier lives. Sometimes people ask us that and Edmund (through Travis)  55:23   That's what these sessions are for these sessions (the voice changed slightly to Metatron's voice at this point) Metatron would like to take over, if that's okay. Sarah Webb  55:34   Yes. Yes. Thank you. Thank you Edmund. Thank you. Speaker 3  55:43   The session is very important. I'm sorry that I had to intervene but Sarah Webb  55:51   Don't be sorry. No, Archangel Metatron  55:53   He was telling you the truth. Yes. But I wanted to tell you myself. Yes. The Flash is coming soon. And I've told you that before, well you know that. But one thing I want you to know for sure, is everyone that's doing what you're doing with these sessions, I want you to let everyone know to keep doing it doesn't matter If everyone doesn't believe it, When the Flash comes, they will see it and then they will believe it. But the more people we can get on board to learn about they are beings on earth and they're light, they will be able to see everything. Everything. They will be able to see. You are doing the right thing. The negative energies will not prevail, we will win. That is fact Everyone will believe sooner or later. People on your planet thinks it is hard to believe in these kinds of sessions mainly because there is so much fake things in your media. But there are actually a lot of people that do believe in it and it's actually growing. So keep doing it. It does not matter who doesn't believe it because eventually they will believe it sooner or later.  Sarah Webb  57:35   Why does it help to have more people believe it if it's going to happen regardless? Archangel Metatron  57:41   The more people that believe that the more helpers we will have when the light comes because there are going to be people yes gonna be panicking when the flash and the wave comes. The more numbers we can have to key in and ease people's emotion when the light comes, the better. Okay. Sarah Webb  58:04   So we're going to help help people ease into the the people that maybe get scared when it happens? Archangel Metatron  58:11   Exactly. What most people need to know. You are in a spiritual army, your soldier. Your husband is a soldier. Anyone who does this kind of stuff and believes in the light. Meditation, grounding. giving other people Light who are soldiers for the Light. You are soldiers. Everything you are doing is good. Everything you are doing is good. It is gonna take a while for a lot of people to understand. It doesn't matter you do not have to reach all of them. But the more you reach, the more soldiers we will have to help when the Flash comes. See somebody that is having a hard time and you will be able to calm them and you will be able to calm them. It will only take a few seconds. You only have to say Light is in you. You are Light. Those will be the words you say to somebody panicking, and they be okay. Automatically. It might seem like they won't be but they will be. It sounds simple because it is simple. Speaker 1  59:45   Yes, you always tell me that, simple. So they will be maybe scared because they will see everything? they'll see you and everyone...? Archangel Metatron  59:57   They will see a lot of things they're not used to. It will be everything brightened up, and they're not used to so much brightness. Everything will turn good. The Flash, you will not see anything blowing up or exploding. It'll just be brightness and Light everywhere. And that will freak some people out. Because they're so used to seeing negative energy all around them they won't be used to. They will think they automatically died. They think it'll be dead, but they will not be dead. They will they automatically went to heaven just like that. Here is where we are in the Light. Here will look like down there. When the Flash comes you will see what we see here, it will be all Light. Some people will panic, mainly because they're still alive. That's why they panic. The people that believe in the Light will not panic, because they will recognize it automatically turn into brighter beings. So people that panic will need help. Okay. Those people will be sent to another place where they can learn to accept the Light, and then they will be okay. The place they go to will be light also, they're not going to a negative place. The people that are light beings on earth will stay on Earth but Earth will be on a different dimension. It'll be a nicer dimension.  Sarah Webb  1:01:33   Okay.   Archangel Metatron  1:01:34   It will be left on your planet Speaker 4  1:01:39   Will we keep our bodies that we have now?  Archangel Metatron  1:01:42   Your bodies will be different. Okay, they will not be solid anymore. That's the thing about what's coming because it will turn everything into a different dimension. Yes. The thing that is fortunate on your planet are your animals. Your animals are already light. They're just physical form. When the flash hits, they will already recognize it. And they will be okay. Because they know. Unknown Speaker  1:02:17   Will they be able to help? Yes. Archangel Metatron  1:02:20   Animals are helping now.  I noticed that.  That's why people have pets. Animals are the one that gives them light. That's why they love them. Yes, animals are light on your planet. Even the ones that you use for food. Every animal is a light even the ones that try to kill you are light, every animal on your planet is light. Sarah Webb  1:02:51   And they are all light beings. Yes? Archangel Metatron  1:02:54   Yes. Sarah Webb  1:02:55   And we're all the same. Is that right? Archangel Metatron  1:02:58   All the same. Sarah Webb  1:03:00   I was reading last night online and I noticed so many people waking up but did not know this, you know, do not know these things. Archangel Metatron  1:03:10   And when the Flash comes no one will have to eat anymore. So everything on the planet will stay on the planet nothing will die nothing will happen to die. It will all be over. Sarah Webb  1:03:25   So how does that work? How will how will it be? Will we be in a body? That is a light body? Or, will we be like the balls of light? Or what will it be like? Yes. Archangel Metatron  1:03:38   When the flash comes, every one will be light but you will still see a physical form. Sarah Webb  1:03:46   So it's not like going back up there exactly. Or is it? Archangel Metatron  1:03:52   Yes, down here on this planet. This planet Earth and other planets when the Light comes because the Flash will be coming on other planets as well. You will see each each other like what you see each other when you were under but you will have light in you. The light will show up in your head area, your chest area and your lower area. You will have three lights. What is your chakra which you can access now if you like. Which chakra is that? The main chakra is the one that will be centered in your heart area. Sarah Webb  1:04:35   Okay. There's something about crystalline bodies - is that true? Archangel Metatron  1:04:40   That's what your bodies will look like when the Flash comes. Wow it will look like flashing crystal, three main crystals and the rest of your body will look like the shiny crystal. When you pass over You can take that that way as well. But most of everyone just stays one ball of light. Sarah Webb  1:05:09   Is it the fifth dimension? As people call it, 5-d? Archangel Metatron  1:05:13   That's what they call it down there. But up here where we are, there is no dimension, so,  Sarah Webb  1:05:23   Tell me more about that.  Archangel Metatron  1:05:26   When it turns into the fifth dimension, everyone will live forever. So it'd be like being up here, War II are close to source. But it'll be down there in the fifth dimension, but nobody will ever die. The good thing about being in the so called fifth dimension is you will be able to travel back and forth from here, why am back to the fifth dimension? Sarah Webb  1:05:55   That's what I was going to ask you. If we could go where you were. Archangel Metatron  1:05:59   The only way you could do that now is when you meditate or what you call astral travel. Sarah Webb  1:06:07   Oh, okay. Archangel Metatron  1:06:09   Fifth Dimension, you will be able to do it easily. You will not have to meditate. You. Okay? Go and do it. You can just do it. You wouldn't have to concentrate and meditate, like, down there right now. Sarah Webb  1:06:26   Is it? Is it good to learn to astral travel? Is it an okay thing to do? Archangel Metatron  1:06:31   It is okay for anyone to astral travel, but they don't have to. Yeah, anyone can do it. But it's up to them to decide if they can do it. Okay. Sarah Webb  1:06:43   Well, I have a question. I guess somebody's saying that they were you were in the like, someone will say I'm an 11th dimensional being and I dont know.. Archangel Michael/Travis Webb  1:06:53   Those are not real. The fifth dimension is not real. Archangel Metatron  1:07:00   It's just, it's not really either. Really. It's just, it's just a plane, like where I am right now. This is Sarah Webb  1:07:10   not a hierarchy? Is it? Or is it? Archangel Metatron  1:07:13   No, there is no hierarchy? There is no different levels here. Everyone? Same here. Yeah, there is different dimensions. The reason why they call that the fifth dimension is because they just call it that. Sarah Webb  1:07:26   Okay, okay. Well, people say three, and then they say fine. So they think five is better. And maybe seven is even better, right? Archangel Metatron  1:07:36   You call where you live? The third dimension? Any? Because that's what you call it? Sarah Webb  1:07:43   Hmm. So we just made made a name. Right? Did we not get that really correct? That's not correct. Okay. Archangel Metatron  1:07:52   Things that can phase in and phase out. And they also use that from what you call aliens, which we don't call them aliens. They're just another being the technology to be able to phase in and phase out. Sarah Webb  1:08:13   Phase in and phase out. Archangel Metatron  1:08:17   Yes, they can move to different planets without actually traveling through what you call space, okay, up on one planet, or pop up on another planet? Or pop up in what you call space? Look at a planet sometimes. From the outside. Yeah, but they have the technology to do that. Sarah Webb  1:08:44   How are we going to learn about things like that? For now? Archangel Metatron  1:08:47   Finally, we'll learn those things right before? Wow. Well, you might not be able to get to use it as much. Yeah. Yeah. Does a flash is coming. Okay. Very soon. Sarah Webb  1:09:07   Very soon. Hmm. Archangel Metatron  1:09:10   On my time, there is no time here because we don't have any time. So I say very soon. It is very soon, or everything here. Have a you down there? It might not seem like it's very so that's why we can give time. Right? Sarah Webb  1:09:32   But it doesn't sounds like it doesn't really matter. Because if we die and go there, it's beautiful anyway. Archangel Metatron  1:09:40   Exactly. It does not matter. So when someone asks, When is this going to happen? The reason why we say soon is because we pretty much see it already happening. But it just hasn't happened yet. All right, well, I guess you can really say, we can't tell you when the flash is going to happen down there. Because we do not know. Source knows. Sarah Webb  1:10:13   Yes. But Archangel Metatron  1:10:17   that is the only rule up here. I see as when something going to happen. source says long is he does not tell you when something's going to happen, then you do not have to worry about it. Not want to put that burden on any of the so called Ark angels like me or anyone else? Because they won't know because he did not tell us. Okay, so he knows. And while I'm speaking about him, he also talks to us all the time, he actually told me not to give his big agenda. I said he, the reason why I said oh, yes, my voice is coming out of this earthly body, this body is connected to me. And this earthly body, here is some of this conversation, he goes in and out. So he actually can influence some things as far as earthly things sometimes, but it does not change the truth of what I say. What I am saying is is trying to make it easier for everyone on Earth to understand. So when I say source, and I said key, that was easier for everybody to understand. I actually said she also like the reason why I should not say that the source says is because earthlings like to put things against each other does on Earth. There are some people that are fighting genders, women wants it to do men's jobs. There are some women on earth that do not like men, and they have intentions against men. So when you call the higher source are he or she they get angry? And they because they aren't on Earth, it is a negative energy. If there was up here with they would not get upset because they would know it doesn't matter what gender it is, because the source is has no gender. Just like I have no gender. Oh, wow. I don't have a gender. That's another thing. Oh, your husband's vocal cords because he is a man. If you're a woman's vocal cords. I would not sound like this. I would sound like a fake male species. Sarah Webb  1:13:06   Gotcha. Thank you. But one thing that I've noticed that people are having a hard time with the negative energy. And then I had a question about dreams. Do we have time for those two or no? Archangel Metatron  1:13:21   We have a little time. Okay. Sarah Webb  1:13:25   Some people are having we'll go into the dream somebody some people are having difficult dreams. I'm having weird dreams that I don't really like. Can we were wondering why those things are they're happening? What do they mean? I think one of them. I think the archangels told me that it was a parallel life where I woke up and I burst into tears. Archangel Metatron  1:13:55   You? Yes. Some of your dreams are parallel lives. Some of them are not. Some of them are through negative energies that is trying to make you angry. Sarah Webb  1:14:08   Okay, okay. That's what I wondered. Is that what's happening to other people? Are they are they interfering with the dreams with our dreams? Or our wherever we go? Yes. Okay. Okay. Is that Archangel Metatron  1:14:22   important what those dreams are? Okay. It doesn't matter what they mean. Okay, because your dreams are part of your human brain. Every, every being has those so called dreams. The reason why you should not worry about dreams is because those are part of negative energies. Sometimes you have good dreams, and sometimes those dreams are also imprinted by negative energies there. They'll give you good ones sometimes and then they'll give you bad words. When you say You do that. And sometimes when you go, you astral travel, and you're in another life. Reason why I say that is not important is because you will have any sessions when you have these sessions, then you will get the answer Oh, point in worrying about it Travis  1:15:21   unless you go Archangel Metatron  1:15:25   under, or you figure out a way to go under yourself and speak to your higher self. And they can tell you, I believe they will tell you that those dreams are from negative energies. Sarah Webb  1:15:36   It Yeah, that makes sense to me. Ah, so, to fight the negative energy and and people think of negative entities. And am I correct in understanding? You've told us this that there are no negative entities, there are just energies that can make themselves look like they take form. Is that? Archangel Metatron  1:16:02   Okay? Yes, that is exactly what it is. They take up form. Okay. And you call them negative entities. The more you focus on a negative energy, the more they happen? Yes, yes, yes. So have you know that the negative energies are messing with you? Just ignore them and keep doing what you're doing? And concentrate on a light figure out something else to do? You get angry, then they are winning? Also on your planet? There was a lot of misinformation. Edmund (through Travis)  1:16:39   Everything. Yes. Archangel Metatron  1:16:41   And I just heard you say when he was asking me a question you say people say that is not positive. Because listening to other humans and other humans are not very smart. Even the so called was you think that a smart on your planet are not very smart. You don't know? Everything until you get up here where you supposed to be where we are. You won't know everything until you get here. Sarah Webb  1:17:11   Okay. So there's some things we just don't We don't know. Archangel Metatron  1:17:16   Exactly. Sarah Webb  1:17:22   So I don't know if his side recorded the very end. But Travis  1:17:28   I went in and Sarah Webb  1:17:30   I counted Travis back out. And he's here with me now. So we're going to conclude this session. We hope that you really enjoyed it. I had no idea that it was going to go that way. It's so fascinating. We wanted to know about that life for a while we we heard about it. And because Travis is higher self has the same accent we have wondered for so long, like what was that about? You know? And so now we know and in Travis doesn't remember what just happened. I don't think I haven't talked to him very much. He's just getting settled back in. So we're going to watch this

If you are expecting one conversation to convert your next client, you might need to think again. Today we are going to talk about what it takes to keep the referrals coming.Three Things You'll Learn in This EpisodeHow to build relationships with clients.Why you aren't converting leads.How you can bring in more clients.ResourceCheck Out SheridanStReal Estate Marketing DudeThe Listing Advocate (Earn more listings!)REMD on YouTubeREMD on InstagramTranscript:Speaker 1 0:00  So how do you track new business? You constantly don't have to chase it. Hi, I'm Mike Cuevas the real estate marketing division, this podcast is all about building a strong personal brand people have come to know, like trust and most importantly, refer. But remember, it is not their job to remember what you do for a living. It's your job to remind them. Let's get startedSpeaker 1 0:31  What's up ladies and gentlemen, welcome another episode of the real estate marketing dude, podcast, I'm sure we're gonna chat about today's we're gonna get right in down and dirty with lead generation, specifically, digital online, social media, Google Tiktok, Facebook, lead generation, we're gonna go through basically the ins and outs of it, we have a guest today that this is what he does, I'm gonna dissect his funnel live right now with you guys and sort of show you behind the scenes of what really goes on. But here's the overall message I want you to get. I just met him 20 minutes ago, so fucking, I have no idea what he's gonna talk about. But I'm almost positive, we're gonna agree on this. Nobody converts on the first damn touch, you're not going to get her in bed, the first time you see her, you're going to need to build a relationship online build trust build authority, and over time, you might get lucky. So what I'm getting at today is that this is not a one touch thing. And there's a reason why some teams do very, very well at lead generation is because they have everything crinkled on all cylinders. And these one stop shop people, it's very hard to compete against that in the marketplace because you don't have your auto responder set. You don't have retargeting setup, you don't have this video going to this video and email, text message like there's a lot of shit going on. So we're going to break that down and the confusion of it very simplified today. But the reason why this is titled this way is because you don't get married on a first date, and you're not going to convert the first time you touch somebody, it's gonna be a series of multitude. Now if you do congratulations, we all get lucky once in a while. But it's nothing that we hang our head on or count on each and every night. We go out here and I'm saying, All right, so without further ado, we're gonna go out and introduce our guests. This guy's a fucking Colombian. You guys might not know this, but I am a Colombian 50% I always claimed my Mexican side. But I'm actually all Latino, 5050 Colombian and Mexican and actually finally met one of the other one other Colombians that I've met in a long time in the space, especially in the real estate. And so I'm excited to have you here. Without further ado, who's going to introduce our guest, Mr. Cody. Hey, what's up, dude?Speaker 2 2:28  Man, I really excited I love that intro. You know, I we definitely share that same ethos to, to business to lead generation and marketing. And just super excited. Yeah, with you today.Speaker 1 2:39  You know what people used to always tell me, Mike, you're a white Mexican. And now I know why it's because it comes from my Colombian side. And Cody is as white as I am guys. But we're both Latinos. So it's funny thatSpeaker 2 2:49  I see I'm actually not, I gotta set this record straight. I'm actually not Latino at all. I thought you're Colombia. No, I'm from I'm from I'm Canadian. We? I, yeah. I have Italian and I have Italian in me and I have a little bit of English, but I'm not Colombian. I've just spent the last almost a year now traveling through Latin America. My entire team is a Latin American, and just fell in love with Latin America.Speaker 1 3:19  Awesome. Well, most Colombians are very light skinned. Okay. Excuse me. Anyways, let's get into the show. Cody. Once you tell everyone a little bit about who you are your background. Before I start grilling year,Speaker 2 3:33  I will give you the high level SparkNotes version of what how I got here today, spent 10 years in telecom, managing sales teams and just with a passion to help people. And I transitioned out of telecom sales management, probably in 2018. Now so about five years ago, I started my agency originally an agency was called studio b2b Oh, we worked with pretty much any lead gen based business. And about a year and a half, two years ago, we kind of shifted gears and went all in on helping real estate agents and teams really build their funnel, fill their funnel, nurture their leads for life and book more in person meetings, more phone appointments, more live transfers, where our team is spread out all across North America all across the world, really. We're in Latin America, we service the US and the Canadian market, really helping them to do that. I have a business partner in the company. His name is Sharon Srivatsa. He joined me about a year and a about a year ago now. And your business partner motherfucker. There you go. Sean Serrata. Yeah, really good friend of mine, you know as a partner now and we've taken a lot of his IP and kind of repackaged it put it into our system and just on a mission to help more and more and more real estate agents do really cool thing. So I see Shawn all the time I gotSpeaker 1 4:53  around quite a bit. There's a when he until he went to real and then everything sort of changed out a little bit and that's another story in itself. However, let's keep going on the show anyways. So I want to know what the hell, how does this thing work? Okay? You guys obviously have a system in place. And let's just start a start from the beginning of what you really need to really run a digital marketing funnel, right? Let's just get down to the nitty gritty, let's get and like, what do I need to have going for? So I want to take this through, what do I need to have going on? And then we'll sort of dissect each one. So everyone could sort of follow very easily through audio here. Yeah.Speaker 2 5:31  If you like, for me, I have a fundamental belief that all conversion happens in conversation. And so like, it's like your, your funnel needs to create conversations, and how do you do that, like, there's so many different ways to create digital marketing funnels. I think that a lot of people that are starting out if like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna wager to guesstimate that a lot of people probably don't have a Ryan serhant, or a mike Gerard brand. So there are assurance robots of brands, so they're going to need to get really creative with an offer. I have a fundamental belief that no amount of marketing fixed should he offer, like, it's just, it's not going to happen, like, so setting yourself apart, like, there are different ways you do that. So you know, having an irresistible offer will get people to take action, where the risk of somebody moving forward and giving you their information will outweigh, like the benefit rather, will outweigh the risk of moving forward. So the first focus is like really dialing in a who you want to reach, like your messaging, be your targeting, like, you know, what are the demographics, the psychographics of the actual end consumer, and then putting an irresistible offer in front of them, that makes it a no brainer for them to essentially click that button, give you their information. And, and a lot of people struggle with that, because they're like, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm going to click the Boost Post Button on Facebook, or I'm going to, I just want to get my listing in front of as many people as possible, but it's like, the currency really comes into how many conversations can you create, like, if it's if it's text conversations I need, I need phone numbers. If it's if it's messenger, I need I need to get people to message me in Messenger to have those conversations where, you know, Tron talks about this all the time around, like, you know, all of the money is made in the DMS, especially on social. So if you really want to create longevity in your business, there's one two things that you need to happen either A, you need to get them into the into the DMS and you'd have a conversation there, or B, you need to get them into a CRM, and you need to call them or text them. So that's really kind of like the start of the funnel. Obviously, there's key elements towards doing that. But an irresistible offer and a form and a form capture is, in my opinion, the best place to start.Speaker 1 7:35  So let's stop right there. Folks, you guys are a fucking commodity. I mean, you guys are offering exact same thing. 99% of you can list your house, put on the MLS and open up a couple open houses, we're gonna do some photos, and I might even do a video and we're just gonna wait and pray for a buyer to come. That's not what gets you hired like you're leaving your real estate license does not. It legally gives you the right to collect money, but it's not the reason why people hire you. People hire you because of what the fuck you could do with it at the end of the day. And you're right on the irresistible offer. So if you guys been following our show, we launched a thing called owner advocate, which is just a multiple selling solutions. We have six different ways that a seller can sell their house cash offer sale leaseback bridge loan fix homeless program, regular listing, foreclosure short sale, and they could share, they could sell a portion of their house. Now 90% of the people who come in through that funnel end up just listing, but it's because we have an offer that's different than everybody else. And when everybody he's 100%, right? If you're gonna go out there and say, Hey, I'm a real estate agent, I'm sorry, no one gives a crap. If you're gonna go out there and say, Hey, I'm a real estate agent do something a little bit differently. Here's what I'm doing great. You might have a little bit of my attention. But if without an offer just being a real estate agent, would you agree that if you're just a real estate agent, just go out there and just run it as a spec? Hey, look, I'm gonna I'm a real estate agent. I've been here for 20 years, you're gonna die and burned so fair?Speaker 2 8:52  Well, not only is it fair? No. Is it fair? It's like, I have conversations with agents every day. My sales team has conversations with agents every day, like agents like I like this market is is really interesting because we are 100% in a skills based market. And that that goes into sales and it goes into marketing. The interesting thing about the skills based market is the amount of conversations I've had with people that said they did 15 transactions last year that haven't even sold a home yet this year is flabbergasting. Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy the amount of conversations I'm having I had a conversation with somebody who got into the business in 2009 We're now 2023 They haven't sold the home yet this year like like we're in q2 and a large portion we got spoiled we got lazy we got small we got lazy we didn't build our pipeline we don't have we don't have now a buyers and later buyers we don't have now sellers and later sellers. And we're you know a lot of agents are struggling now. So yeah, like you know, you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast around like the first date conversation. It's like, I just like I have a fundamental belief just take a meeting with everyone. Like if your calendar is not full with at least today. three meetings a day meeting potential buyers and sellers. Like you're just you're not going to win in this market. Like it's just not it's not possible,Speaker 1 10:06  you got to be doing 10 to 15%. The people you guys converse with are moving in next 12 months, but 100% of them have referral for you. So if you're just always having conversations, you're just bound. And this is how an agent traditionally works referral market, right? You're just sitting there just be Johnny everywhere, right call and because babies and shake hands, well, when you're doing it online, it's no differently, but you're just having conversations with strangers through things like automation and text bots, etc, etc. And it's the conversations that lead to the trust. Now, the other option is you could have a big mega brand, right? You could be the Josh Altman. And like you think Josh Altman as a listing presentation, Fuck no, he doesn't. He just shows up. And he's so damn confident he's got a television show what he says goes, that's called a brand. Most real estate agents don't have the brand and go with it, because you can create great content to create content. I've done over 5000 videos for real estate agents in the last few years. And I can tell you firsthand that most of them won't last more than six months doing it because they don't understand the power of building the brand long term. And sometimes it takes six months to build that brim. Chevron's a good example. Chevron came out of fucking nowhere a few years ago, and now he's like a local celebrity in the real estate industry. But it's his content and how he and how he presents that people fall in love with. It's not the what, a lot of people say the same thing. It's how he does it, that built his brand, right? So you guys, each and every one of you have an individual and that's like, great. Like, there's no reason you can't do the same thing. But it all starts by what we just started talking about. You have to have something you do differently. What the hell is the difference? I asked Realtors this whole time? What's the difference between especially when I get them on a branding call? Hey, what's the difference between you and every other agent? 99.9% of the time the question the answer is, I'm going to take care of my clients. I really look out for their best interest and I'm like, No shit, fuck Sherlock. That's a fiduciary duty, that's what you have to do. And that's assume no one's going to hire you because they think you're going to take them over, they hire you because they think you're going to help them. That's not a sale that's not USP. Alright, let's keep going reach targeting. I love the offer. What type of you give me a couple examples? What type of offer desexing right now online?Speaker 2 12:07  Yeah, right now, we have a partnership with a company called revive on the seller side, where they essentially $0 down all renovations, they do all the work, pay on closing, increase the value of your home where it's no longer like find out what your home is worth in the market. It's like an actual offer. I started working with a bunch of flooring companies in the beginning and it was so easy to get the flooring company into the home. Because they had offers they had zero credit offers. So it's like, you know, leaning into the credit offers is really good, because it's different than what everyone else is doing in the market. And like a lot of people have that in their arsenal, like I know, kW and compass, they have an arsenal, but they're just horrible at market it. They're Yeah, they're horrible marketing. tons of companies are just terrible at marketing their offers on the front end, but it's like the offer that really gets them on the buyer side. You know, like, if you really want to sit down with people and you really want to have more conversations, there's one or two ways to do it. It's either, you know, advertise off market properties, get people to, to, you know, to come through, it's like, you know, get a list of off market properties, you put a list together, that's one way. You know, people want exclusive offers. That's it. That's one way to get people through the funnel. The other option is like right now it's working. What really well, on the buyer side is like your first month mortgage payment. So I'm gonna give you an example of first month mortgage payment. So we have a client, who in his market he wants to be really well known for as a philanthropist. Like he is like, he has a philanthropy mindset. So when we were we wereSpeaker 1 13:38  closing, does it give back a portion of percentage every closing?Speaker 2 13:41  Yep. So yeah, he does first month mortgage payment on us. So we like we gives back to the buyer. So the buyer has to donate a portion of the of the buyer credit back to a charity of their choice, boom, love it. So he's getting he's picking up philanthropist mindset people from the beginning of people who have the mindset of wanting to give back but that is an example of a USP mixed with an irresistible offer. SoSpeaker 1 14:06  it's just say no to him, he could charge that dude can charge 7% Compared to your 5% and he's gonna get fucking hired because people have an emotional connection with him and the one that's going to hire him and as somebody that had a personal situation with the exact charity that he's donating back to it could be a death in the family a sickness in the family or something like that. We have a lot of philanthropists clients, every single one of them crush they're all doing million plus. And it's like why it's because you've created an emotional connection USP that no one can say no toSpeaker 2 14:34  exactly. Love it. It makes a massive difference and the conversations are amazing.Speaker 1 14:40  But listen, what are you seeing as it's not even like the service you provide us the how it's the person behind it, it's your why right that people have that are hiring so that's excellent. You mentioned something else the Revive isn't national company because anyone can use revive. They're one of our vendors for our programs as well and they offer a lot but they do lead with a fix homeless program on their website because they know that That's the biggest lead gen tool, right? If you could tell someone how to flip their own house, like, come on, you have my attention. Right?Speaker 2 15:07  It's a no brainer. Like no brainer, it's, it's a no brainer, like have it in your arsenal, use it as one of your tools to advertise advertising on the front end. And it's just a matter of getting your ISA to call with that specific offer. Hey, you know, Tom, at one point in time, we saw that you requested some information around, you know, potentially doing $0 down on renovations, Does that ring a bell, you know, and then the ISA, she's going through the process of like qualifying them and sending them to you. So it's not like it the the offer makes it so much easier for an inside sales agent or appointment setter to, to have those conversations to send you live transfers, and then you just take it over and use your own scripts. And it's it's like, it becomes a no brainer becomes super simple. It's not easy, but it's super simple. Once you implement it,Speaker 1 15:54  I can verify all this, you guys were closing or transferring probably about three or four day. And we're using this exact system to do so. So what he's saying is right on, and anyone can do this isn't like anything like we created, we're just leveraging another company's USP and working with them. Alright, so let's get into the actual ad side where you're running ads that like for this messaging, and let's talk about like the channels first. You mentioned tick tock,Speaker 2 16:19  tick tock through Facebook, Google, YouTube, Instagram, like all the like, kind of the five main social channels. And then kind of like our fundamental belief is like, like I said, like, it's all conversion happens in a conversation, it's like, I need to get them off the platform into a phone call. Because like, like, if I can just get the agent in front of the person to have that conversation. We have specific scripts that we know are working right now like, and you've probably heard sure if you're if you follow us around, you know, schruns like, why don't we sell that gameplan frame? It's literally like we get we get the agent on the phone. And it's like, you know, has anyone taking the time to talk to you about the top three things you need to consider in order when in the market when you are ready to buy or sell the leads? Gonna say no. And you're gonna say why don't we do that? Why don't we sit down for a cup of coffee before the coffee gets cold, I'll walk you through the top three things you need to consider in order to make an informed intelligent decision. And when you are ready to buy that script is crushing it. But from an ADS perspective, it's just, it's getting them off the platform on tick tock like, we do a lot of video content. So the video content we do is very customized where it's like, hey, you know, like, if you're considering selling your home, we will cover all the renovations for you. And you know, you'll pay on closing, we'll help you flip your home. Yeah, so my name is Tom from Seattle. You know, this is my real estate business. And then you throw in a case study to the video where it's like kind of like my my clients, Alex and Alex and in you know, Bethany, they did this, they got this result. If you want more information, click or tap the Learn More button below. And we'll see you on the other side. And then the text message comes through. Hey, is this Alex question mark? Yeah, and they respond to that. And then you hit them back up with like, hey, you know, we saw you got a request for this, this and this. Do mornings afternoons work better in order to chat with you really quickly about this? And sometimes they will answer. Sometimes they won't. We'll try to call them try to live transfer them directly to you or book an appointment of the calendar. SoSpeaker 1 18:19  what do you guys like starting your ads on? Usually a lot of people like you know, finding their potentials. I'm sure your retargeting all those platforms, where are you running? Are you acquiring traffic on all those platforms? First, are you trying? Are you using Facebook, for example, as your primary traffic generator then following everyone around after that'sSpeaker 2 18:36  it, it's a mixture of everything. So like the strategy depending on it depends on the agents. ad budget number one, you know, if it's a small agent, and they're like, Hey, we only have 567 $100 budget. You know, it's really hard to do retargeting with that type of budget, like you can do is that you can't do it, it's just like, you know, like, they generally don't have a top of funnel to begin with. So with the teams that we work with already have a lot of traffic, there's a lot of different ways that you can like kind of speaking to more the seasoned teams now. Like if you're a single agent, you should be filling your funnel, you should be getting as many names, email addresses as you can. So don't listen to this next thing if you are, if you're if you're single agent you just need you need more people in your database. Now if you have a lot of people in your database, there's a bunch of different things you can do like upload the list. Like we have a direct integrate, we use a program called go high level you're probably familiar with it. We have a direct integration to Facebook, where we've seen whenever a lead enters the system, they automatically get added to a custom audience on Facebook and then we retarget them with video testimonials. You know that's that's a there's really six points we look for when we do Facebook retargeting. Number one is the customer list. Number two is all the ever all the interaction that's happened on the Facebook page, all the interaction that's happened on the Instagram page, all the interaction that has potentially happened on the website so website pixel traffic There's two other things that we target based on custom audiences. And we do the same thing with tick tock as well, you run a custom audience on tick tock. And then, you know, a lot of cold traffic. But really the goal is to the other thing that we do, as well as we have a partnership with an insurance agency, where we can get verified homeowner data. So we would essentially buy that data uploaded to Facebook, and then run those ads to verify homeowners. And that, that definitely helps. But we also call those people too, in order to try to, you know, cold call them. But you know, the even if they, they might say no to us on a call, but then they see our ad and they click through and then they go through the sequence again. SoSpeaker 1 20:39  they might see the ad and then they're like, oh, yeah, hey, and then the caller comes in and like, Hey, I'm from blank blank, like, oh, you know what I just saw you saw that ad. But you're hitting you're hitting it from all cylinders.Speaker 2 20:48  Yeah. Do you prospecting all that stuff? Yeah. What do you prefer?Speaker 1 20:54  And so folks, when he's just listing out as he's running an initial ad, and once somebody either clicks on that ad and hits a website, or they view the ad, he's retargeting the view of consumption, or they engage or click or like it, then he's just following them everywhere. And it's not just like, if you find somebody on Facebook that sees your initial ad, and all sudden you start following them on Tik Tok YouTube, they start seeing your display ads and Google and every, you know, publishing site that they're on after a while, and then your callers are calling them on top of it after a while. They're like, Who the fuck is this guy? Totally. You know what I mean?Speaker 2 21:30  It's so interesting. The other day, I was having a conversation with one of our clients, you know, and I helped shift their perspective around like retargeting around conversations, because they're like, Oh, I got this live transfer lead, but the live transfer lead, they said that their family member is an agent. I'm like, well, that's amazing. Yeah, Has anyone taken the time to walk you through the top three things that you need to consider in order to win in the market, when you're ready to buy, you have this person in front of you that I guarantee you that their family member hasn't sat down with them, and had a conversation with them about, you know, the top three things, the interest rates, the inventory, and in the buying process. So this is your opportunity to take that, like, you and I have heard this multiple times, like, and we've seen this in our local markets, like just because like your brother down the street sells homes, it doesn't matter. Like it literally doesn't matter like the the buyer is committed to whoever can get the best deal. We're seeing.Speaker 1 22:23  We're seeing just offering options that. Yeah, I would say I don't know the percentages, but my gut tells me 10 to 15% of people that we get on a call will say something along the lines of Well, yeah, I have a aunt or an uncle or a friend that's going to list it, however common. But when we say hey, but they don't have a lot of these options. Can they help you flip your own house? Can they help you do a bridge? Can they help you do this? And then they're like, Well, I consider that and it just, you know, we still know the fact that we're still getting our foot in the door. It just comes back to our first point here, it's all about offering.Speaker 2 22:59  Totally refer and then and then it's your sales ability. It's your sales skill to have the conversation like yeah, Sean's going really hard on like teaching our clients and teaching the clients we advise on how to do a good listing presentation, like when you walk in the door, don't do the tour, sit down with the client, have a conversation with them, create a game plan, create a strategy, and then do the tour.Speaker 1 23:24  make sense to me. Overall, your initial offering when you're running these ads, you're going straight video are you seeing video versus images work any differently? What's preferred all the above? I know you get a lower click through rate on the videos, but is it more qualified? What do you seen?Speaker 2 23:42  Great question. It depends. It's market dependent number one obviously with tick tock tick tock it's all video with YouTube it's all video. So it's platform and market specific. So there's a lot of testing in the beginning to figure out like what what's actually working what's not working so generally on Facebook or Instagram we'll run dynamic creative and then we'll pull out the creatives that aren't performing you know tick tock generally like you know, it's $20 a day minimum budget so like you know, you're you're running like you can split those videos in the ad level but we generally like to run ad like in the beginning will run will split test the $20 at any ad set level to figure out like Is it is it broad targeting that works so there's a lot of like with these platforms now is like let the AI figure out what what the market is in the market. A large large portion of it like with video like video is difficult because video is very dependent on the how good you are on video and how the video is cut and edited. So like you know it's like if I can't capture the person's attention the first you know three seconds you'll see the drop off rate like even like right now like even the YouTube ad we're running we're you know, we like we run like I personally run ads against the top channels like because it's if you're if you're a marketer, you should be running ads against the top channels on YouTube but like my drop above Raina, my current videos super high, so it's like okay, guys, we gotta go back and we have to rerecord this video, so we're constantly watching for that as well. But, you know, ultimately we're watching for, you know, like, depending it depends on the client, like, generally they want to optimize for Legion. So if they want to optimize for lead gen, because they like the, they're their KPIs how many conversations is going to have, so it's like, okay, we need to, we need to drive as many of these as we possibly can through the front end of the funnel, so that we have the opportunity and the ISA has the opportunity to create those conversations. So you know, it's it's market dependent. It is also very, like, you know, how good you are on video, we have really engaging people on video, and they their videos perform better than their images. So it's just and it also depends on the offer. So it's testing, it's testing, figuring out what's working, what's not working, coming back to the drawing board, and not doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. So whatSpeaker 1 25:55  if you have somebody in a market that are like, dude, 400 pounds of face made for radio? Can I just use one of your videos? What's the importance of having the person in the brand or the team leader or the person on the videos as opposed to not? Is there any importance to that? In ADS? And this is for any of you guys that are thinking like, Hey, I don't want to be on video, like do you have do they have to be on video, who needs to be the person that's, that's featured?Speaker 2 26:19  If it's a team lead, assign a brand ambassador, we've done that before, where it's like team leads, like I don't want to be on video, okay, find somebody on your team that can be a brand ambassador for you, that's actually good on camera. Tons of flooring companies that work in the past do that where they don't want to be on video, they just signed one other people that are that are energetic charismatic on camera that can eloquently express the brand proposition. So if you have a team, if you're a team lead, then assign somebody on your team. If you're a single agent you're gonna be you're gonna have to eventually get in front of the, in front of the person. And it's like, you're like, I love what the Quran says, you know, he said this recently, like your, your level of your ability to sell is your level of service. So it's like, you know, like, like, I always like to try to help shift the perspective, if you're a single agent, where it's like, in the beginning, I would encourage you to get on camera because like you're eventually going to have to be face to face with that person because you're the only one selling so and there's some people that like, we can like we can run images but obviously like the brand is you like you are the brand like I can't I can't express that enough where it's like you are the brand like you're a real estate salesperson. Like it's salesperson is in your like your sales representative like that it's in your title like you have to get over video whether that is going to therapy, you know, like like you know really working on yourself to figure out like how do I serve at a higher level if you can shift the it from like, I don't want to go on video because I'm not comfortable to me being on video allows me to help more people. Yeah, I mean really what it comes down toSpeaker 1 28:05  I saw you guys like get over it like you're gonna have to it's not really an option anymore. But if you if you don't run away from illicit employment face to face Why the hell you can run away with a video just a 60 inch device.Speaker 2 28:18  I've chatted with people who don't want to do who don't want to do in person meeting so like I've seen it all you've seen goSpeaker 1 28:24  oh yeah oh yeah. Now out of all of the what when we're doing retargeting videos what are the most important have testimonials you have any other type of just testimonials anything else you anything about process? Are you doing like case studies like any What else do we what else is working? Well for retargeting content,Speaker 2 28:44  videos testimonials first and foremost for sure. You know as far as from a retargeting retargeting perspective. Yeah, like just running as low as $1.41 a day, you onstage speaking at an event immediately puts you into a form of credibility. If you've been focused on if you've been featured on your local news television, like that level of authority as well, where if you can rip that video and run it as a Facebook ad, you know that that is another great way like anything that elevates your authority. There's a reason why like, you know, these, these people who've been featured on HGTV are selling sunset, they built their authority where it's like, you know, is that brand recognition that if I can just get in front of my database as much as I possibly can for a buck 41 Like we I do it like I was spoken to NAHREP event and I've been running like $2 a day for the last like year. And people like I just want them to see my face consistent.Speaker 1 29:36  So it is the easiest form of marketing real estate. You just farm your database with content. That'll create a referral based business, but it's not Legion. That's just the marketing side of it.Speaker 2 29:46  That's the branding. That's how it's harder for people to quantify that. And that's why they don't do it. But like once you get it, and once you understand that, like a shrine's brand is so big because of his content or Oh have, you know Tom Ferry is so big because of his content? Like,Speaker 1 30:04  once you quantify it right now for everybody? Yeah, IUnknown Speaker 30:07  would love I would love for you to quantifySpeaker 1 30:09  here's how I because I get that question all the time with creating videos for people wondering, Am I a return on investment? How's it gonna go? So let me just walk you guys through how important this is and why it's the largest return on investment you'll ever make. But you're it's hard to quantify. So most people look at cost, right? And they're like, hey, I want to quads cost cost, what's it going to cost me. So let's just break it down. You could put whatever number you want on this and they'll still pencil but let's just for time sake, put $1,000 A month towards your video content creation. Let's just say $1,000 A month got you content to keep you on shorts, short form, you got long form, but you're constantly creating and you're multi purposing. Now, based upon just your own warm referral market has nothing to do with cold Legion what we're speaking about today, but just off your warm referral marketing, that'd be $12,000 a year, right? $1,000 a month. Now over that time, you're going to generate anywhere between 24 to 100 videos, depending on whether you're doing long form or short form fair. Okay, now, it's all based upon views. So over the 12 months, if you took each of those videos, you video, emailed them off to your database, you posted on all your social profiles, you ran those videos as custom audiences just to your friends and family and your phone, and your cell phone. And past clients, you put all those videos on your YouTube channel, you put all those videos back on your website, 10 to 15% of your views are going to be moving this year, but 100% of them will have a referral for you. In most cases, out of all of that content you create over the course of a year, you have to, on average, sell how much it cost you 12 grand. So how much you have to sell real estate to make 12 grand usually it's about $600,000 in a closed sale. If you can't fucking sell one house, over 12 months, with over 25 to 100 different videos of content creation, you're in the wrong fucking business friends. Done. You have to if you cannot, you could generate a half a referral in three months doing that. You know what I mean? So when people say Oh, I can't create content, it always pencils. It's the largest ROI you'll ever see. And it's the only thing you'll ever control where it becomes what you can't quantify is the one video they saw eight months ago that people that got them to actually really know who the hell you are.Speaker 2 32:24  Yeah. 100 I'm, I'm totally with you. And it's like, something has to click in the brain for people to understand that and like that, your the way you quantify that is really good. Like, you know, from a numbers perspective, when you get it, you really get it like like and you're like I can't I can't like I can't ever go back from this like, like it doesn't like you're 100% right? That is that one person that comes to you and says like, Hey, I ISpeaker 1 32:51  look at this podcast. Yeah, I'm doing since 2014 I've been slow lately, like I haven't been I've been sort of sporadic on my show for the last month I hate doing that. But dude for the first seven years I just fucking showed up every Saturday I never promoted it once but if I didn't have a podcast I can tell you right now I don't have a business most people who schedule an appointment with us they're already feel like they know me before they come on board they're already sold you guys and that's the point of a brand and I'm doing it just the audio to a bunch of strangers I've never fucking met before across the United States you guys only need to do this through the 800 Facebook friends you have this is fucking easy.Unknown Speaker 33:29  Yeah, I'm with you man. reach reach. YouSpeaker 1 33:34  don't need a large audience you just need an engaged one it doesn't matter in real estate you guys make five to 10 grand per ticket per client it's so big to low dollar it's a high dollar ticket. So I'm very hard to generate a very consistent business but to scale you do need to do like lead gen and all the stuff that we're talking about here today anyone could get a can run I believe anyone can make 150 250,000 hours you're really easily just by doing what I just told you create content put in front your database that's it. But if you really want to scale and go larger, you have to do things like what we're talking about today for growth because you're going to grow it but this is awesome dude. Any so beyond the conversations we get the ads going right now how you taking them offline? Walk me through that?Speaker 2 34:18  Yeah, so how do we take them offline we you know, we generally run a lead form like a lead capture form. You know, whether it be like a landing page or whether it be like a built in lead form, depending on the platform, take them off throw them into a drip sequence and love on them until they tell us this buck off like they really really like love on them until they don't want to be loved on anymore and we do tell you we do that through do the week like and the other week is super simple insurance talked about this multiple times and anyone can take this email their database, if they do this, I guarantee if you just do this weekly, you will extract deals from your database. It's like find a property. That is that is a deal in the marketplace and say hey, This week's deal the week is a condo, it's gonna sell fast. You know, no lakes, like you want to force the reply. And you're gonna, it's gonna be very simple, you're gonna say, you know, it's two bedrooms, two bathrooms, it's in a really great neighborhood. And one other thing about the property, the list price is 700,000. If you want more information about the property, just reply back to this email with and let me know or give me a call and I'll be more details. And if you want to get added to our VIP list, send me a message back and then you're gonna get responses, likeSpeaker 1 35:30  once a week. Yeah, that's once a week. It's interesting you say that I remember back in Oh, seven weird, we're crushing on. I look at all this stuff. In hindsight thing of all the mistakes I made when I was so mature back in when I was like 27, crushing it. And one of them was we had it was similar to what you're saying here. And we were doing all short sales. I didn't realize at the time, the power of building a buyer's list or any of this stuff, but I would have literally like 10 to 30 people contacted me a month because we're doing 20 to 30 short sales a month and I had the best deals in the market would cherry pick the ones we want. It was really easy. But because we control the inventory, yes, you're right. We just started putting those out on Facebook at that time not even thinking about it. And yeah, my agents ever want to deal the week it's like hey, you don't buy in this market. You gotta buy I got the best deals, that branding and that positioning fucking did great dude.Speaker 2 36:19  Exclusivity like, you know, people want like, whether they're a million dollar buyer or a $5 million buyer $300,000 buyer, everyone wants a deal. Yeah. No one wants to overpay for something. So it's like it's the positioning like getting them off the platform and then into do the week, you know, loving on them with market updates, like actually knowing your market. Go figure is a is IT asset like like, what are the what are the deals that were a contract, if you buy a home for 700,000, and you put 20% down with the monthly mortgage payment, you know how many homes sold in the market, you just send out weekly, no, and send an ASHA weekly, like like am I do their monthly market update newsletter, but they're not sending a weekly, you quickly become the the resident expert, where it's like I'm tracking this every single week, here's the market update, send it weekly commit to it, there's 52 emails a year, just in market updates. The third one is like just tell a story like like we get them off the platform and they tell a story about a client is one and you we do that on the front end. And then we also do it on the back end as well. Like where it's like there's no greater proof than the proof that you've created for your clients. You know, we use this program with revive this client, we listed their home at you know, 1.7 and sold for 2.3. Here's how we did it. This is our three step process. If you want more information on how we can do this for your home, send me an email back with the word word. And I'll reach out next step. So it's like it's like, get them off the platform. Because like, our big thing is like, I want to own as much data as I possibly can. Like as an as an agency, like data is the you there's a reason why these social media platforms do so well. It's like they own the data. You know, it's like with insurance agents. And that's why we have a partnership with a verified homeowner Insurance Agency companies like I want to know who the homeowners are, you know, in the area. And that's why data is so powerful. So it's like, you know, like Russell Brunson and you because you're a marketing guy. You know, Russell Russell Russell has a saying he says, there's traffic you own, there's traffic, you can control and there's traffic you can't control. I want to own as much traffic because if for example, my Facebook ad account gets shut down someday, I'm screwed. I personally don't screw but you're screwed. If you built your entire business off of Facebook, my all my database sits in my CRM. So it's like we want to own as much data as we possibly can. So that if Facebook ever shuts us down or Tik Tok shuts down or Tik Tok gets banned by the US. It does matter because I've siphoned the data from Tik Tok, and I'm gonna just bring them over to YouTube. SoSpeaker 1 38:45  yeah, I mean, you're in data, I said it all TwitchCon like you're in the data collection agency, all the content you create in the world is just going to create conversations, but it's what you do with the conversations. That is the biggest thing. And as long as you discipline in building that email list, you're gonna be able to stay in front of them. People take for granted email, especially in real estate, you have to capture their email, you have to capture their email. And I always say you have to capture their direct mail too, because I'm farming them with direct mail. I'm staying in touch with them through physical mail. Like you have to you're in the business of data collection. And if you're not viewing it that way, like what's the difference between them and us? I want as many real estate agent email addresses as possible because the more I have, the more shit I can sell. Yep, so differently for you guys. We're just yeah, we just have a different industry. Cody and I are marketers. You guys are realtors, your audience's right and fucking in front of you. It's in your cell phone. It's on your Facebook feed. And ours is you guys but everything we're sharing with you guys today is what we're like this is a form of content that we're on right now. To add value to your lives. Some of you guys are gonna go click on Cody's website and then he's gonna fucking retarget the shit out you all over online until you call them up, right?Speaker 2 39:53  You're gonna see me on YouTube. You'll see me on Facebook. I might pop on Tik Tok for you. There's a there's a tick tock pixel on there, and there's a Facebook pixel, there's Google, you're gonna see me. So youSpeaker 1 40:04  have to start by adding value first. And all we're doing here is recording a 30 minute conversation you guys are eavesdropping on at the end of the day, and some of you guys are gonna get value from it. Some of you guys might call me, like, that's just what content is. But content creates conversation conversations leads to trust, trust leads to you getting fucking hired, and you get hired, you get paid. I do it. Any other closing thoughts that you want to add in on this?Speaker 2 40:26  No, this has been, it's been amazing. Like, you know, the last thought would be like, you know, just the people that go and implement or like, you know, imperfect action is probably the biggest thing I would leave everyone with where it's like a lot, there's a lot here. And if you're listening back to the podcast, you're like, Well, what do I do first, it's like, just try something. Like just imperfect action is kind of the big thing we've been saying to our clients, where it's like, Don't overthink things. You have to just do like, just do and and figure shit out as you go. Because when you do that, that's what you put yourself into momentum. And that's where confidence is created. So I would say imperfect action, confidence, competence, confidence competence loop, you know, believe in your ability to figure this shit out. SoSpeaker 1 41:04  my take on today was one, define your offer, you can't just have a license, that doesn't work. You got to do some sexy. So what's your unique selling proposition to define your creatives you're going to use for your ads, and then three, I can go out and do it. That's it. Nothing starts without the creatives first and the offer guys, that's everything. You have to have the best food on the block the restaurant with the best food always stays in business, the one with the hair in it. Well, that's another story. So we appreciate you guys listening to the episode The real estate marketing podcast, you want to go ahead and let them know one more time where they can reach you.Speaker 2 41:37  Yeah, shared in st.io. It's S H E R i d a n s t.io. You can reach out to us there if you want to reach out to us directly. You can email Cody at Studio pto.com Cody, s t u DIOP tbo.com. And we'd love to have a conversation with you. So really appreciate it today.Speaker 1 41:59  Appreciate you guys listening another episode, folks. If you like this thing about content creation, I want you to visit referral suite.com referral suite.com We show you how to create all your social content script added videos, social video, email, direct mail, I mean, we put you on the map. So people stop forgetting who the hell you are, and more importantly, start sending you referrals. So if you have any additional questions, and I want you to visit referral suite.com And I also want you to check out our next content creator challenge we show people how to create content, it's very simple. Follow the formula and start creating and people as long as they like you, they'll start hiring you. So that's really all of this is appreciate guys listening, make sure you like and subscribe to the channel here and the rest of our social channels and we'll see you guys next week. Peace Oh, thank you for watching another episode of the real estate marketing dude podcast. If you need help with video or finding out what your brand is, visit our website at WWW dot real estate marketing dude.com We make branding and video content creation simple and do everything for you. So if you have any additional questions, visit the site, download the training and then scheduled time to speak with a dude and get you rolling in your local marketplace. Thanks for watching another episode of the podcast. We'll see you next time.Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi, commonly abbreviated to AMF, coevolved with plants from 500 million to one billion years ago. Fossil evidence shows AMF in existence back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. Paul Schreiner, Research Plant Pathologist at USDA-ARS in Corvallis Oregon explains that grapes are a very receptive host for AMF and their symbiotic relationship benefits both organisms. AMF helps plants obtain nutrients like potassium and phosphorous. The plant provides AMF with sugars and fatty acids. AMF lives both inside and outside of the plant. Inside the plant, they form arbuscules inside the root cell. These structures look like little trees and increase surface contact dramatically. Outside the plant, AMF mines for nutrients, likely releases carbon, and prevents soil erosion with its root hair-like structure. Listen in to learn the practices you want to use, and not use to increase AMF populations. References: 149: Fair Market Trade: Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi and Grapevines 151: The Role of the Soil Microbiome in Soil Health 165: Become a Microbe Farmer: Make Compost Article Abstract: The diversity of arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi amplified from grapevine roots (Vitis vinifera L.) in Oregon vineyards is seasonally stable and influenced by soil and vine age Paul Schreiner, Oregon State University Courtesy Appointment Paul Schreiner on ResearchGate USDA-Agricultural Research Service Publications Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - DONATE SIP Certified Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is Paul Schreiner. He is a research plant physiologist with USDA ARS in Corvallis, Oregon. And today we're going to talk about our arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. Thanks for being on the program.   Paul Schreiner  0:11  Thank you for having me, Craig, happy to be here and talk about one of my favorite subjects.   Craig Macmillan  0:17  Obviously, can we just go with AMF, we'll just jump right to that. Yes. Because if I have to arbuscular too many times today, I'm gonna, I'm gonna crash.   Paul Schreiner  0:27  It's a tough one. And it's back in the old days, it used to be called vesicular, arbuscular mycorrhiza. So it was even harder.   Craig Macmillan  0:34  Yeah, it was even hard. We're not in the old days. Whenever a bunch of scientists were sitting around and going, like, you know, what the V this just too much. Can we get into three words, you know, was that big national meeting of mycologist. All right. So let's just go for you studied EMF for a long time. And you have stayed in the field. So you've studied vineyards? Let's start the very beginning. So what are AMF? And what kinds of roles do they play in the soil and interacting with plants?   Speaker 2  1:00  AMF are, as you said, arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. So there are a group of fungi that evolved a really long time ago, estimates are from at least 500 million to a billion years ago.   Craig Macmillan  1:15  Wow.   Speaker 2  1:16  Yeah, that the billion number comes from some molecular clock kind of work, which, you know, is based on mutations in DNA that might be slightly overestimated, but there's fossil evidence that shows them at 450 million years ago. That's a really long time. You know, that's, that's what dinosaurs were around.   Craig Macmillan  1:35  Early dinosaurs if we had time later. I want to know how paleo Micology where I How do you find fungi, but we don't have time for that right now. But if we can come back to that, that's mind blowing.   Unknown Speaker  1:48  Yeah, we can.   Craig Macmillan  1:49  Go ahead.   Paul Schreiner  1:50  Yeah. So one thing I should say I think that's helpful is there's more than one kind of mycorrhizal fungi group, basically, right? The arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi are this older group, or they evolved a very long time ago, and there's been a long period of coevolution with plants. And what's happened is the arbuscular mycorrhiza, which is the kind that grapevines form. Most of our crop plants also form arbuscular mycorrhizal that mycorrhizal group can no longer grow or complete their lifecycle by themselves on their own, they require a host plant to get carbon to survive, there's a whole bunch of other kinds of mycorrhizal fungi. The most important besides the arbuscular would be what we typically call Ecto mycorrhizal fungi and the Ecto are typically on forest trees, especially in temperate and boreal regions. Interestingly enough, a lot of the trees in the tropics are am or arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. So, it is important to just think about that, because some people, when they hear Mycorrhizal, they automatically assume one or the other Ecto or am or arbuscular. It's even far more complicated than that, because there's like five or six other types of mycorrhizal fungi that different plant groups associate with. However, the mycorrhizal fungi that I studied the arbuscular type are the most prevalent, they're the oldest. And you know, it's kind of an interesting thing, science wise that, based on our best information, they evolved, the whole world was one big continent, right? That's when they really radiated and evolved rapidly, I can get a sequence out of grapefruits. That's a mycorrhizal arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus. And it'll match 100% to a sequence in Europe somewhere, or in South America somewhere on any other crops. And, you know, so that's kind of an interesting thing.   Craig Macmillan  3:39  That's a question. And so if we have that kind of similarity in different parts of the world, does that make the research that's done either in on vines in another continent? Or on a different crop? Does that is that useful for understanding how these things work in advance?   Paul Schreiner  3:56  Certainly, yeah. Especially in the last, I'd say 20 years, because we've developed molecular tools to really delve into evolutionary questions and DNA, those kinds of things. Were starting to separate that group of fungi with a finer tooth comb, if you will, right. In a very broad sense, there was this massive radiation during Pangea, and then all the continents separated, a lot of that genetic material is very, very similar. However, there is still evolution going on. It's just you have to look harder for it. And you have to do whole genomes. That's not something that I do. I'm much more on the practical side of agriculture. But I tried to stay in tune with all that. This group of fungi traditionally were thought to be asexual. Now, we think there might be some sort of sexual phase, but it's unclear and not clearly demonstrated yet. We're learning more all the time. But it's also a slow, kind of a slow process. Their interest intractable to study this group of fungi a little bit because they do rely on a host plant to complete their lifecycle. So like, we can't culture them and put them in a lab. So were grown on petri dishes, you know, that kind of thing. They have to be grown with a plant. So we've developed ways to do that. But it does present challenges.   Craig Macmillan  5:10  Yeah, how do you do that.   Paul Schreiner  5:11  And this is really important for this group of fungi. From a practical sense, you have to grow them on a plant companies that produce mycorrhizal inoculum have this kind of fungi, the arbuscular type, they are growing them on plants. Typically, they're doing that in a some kind of either soil or soilless mix, and producing that in a greenhouse. And what like when I grow cultures of these fungi, we grow them on plants. One of the challenges with this group of fungi that relates to all this is that they're also ubiquitous around the globe, pretty much anywhere you have plants, these fungi are are there, the diversity is different in different places, of course, and there probably are some specialists, you know, groups, for example, that might be in more tropical climates versus more boreal climates. But I mean, we're still just beginning to understand that kind of information with this group of fungi. You asked also, what role do they do in terms of soil ecology or plant ecology? There's no question. The biggest role that this fungi plays is in helping plants obtain phosphorus. There is evidence of uptake of other nutrients, particularly those nutrients that are more immobile in soil. And that's why phosphorus is one in particular, but Potassium is another nutrient that's not super immobile in soil, they help take up potassium, they also help take up copper, zinc, I'd say those four are probably the top. However, they also play a role in nitrogen uptake in some plants. You know, we have addressed this in grapes with my former student, Tian Tian, who's now a farm advisor in Southern California working on table grapes, part of her thesis work was looking at the nitrogen impact on mycorrhizae, and how they help with nitrogen uptake. And we're continuing that work to some degree now with my new student. So far, we've not been able to show that the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi are helping grapevines take up nitrogen. However, lack of evidence doesn't mean it can't happen. Other groups have shown in other plant systems that they do help the plants take up nitrogen. But still even even though that's true, without question, Phosphorus is the main thing that this group of fungi helps plants obtain from soil, you know, and phosphorus is a really critical thing, because yeah, phosphorus reserves are running out, you know, we've been mining basically guano, right? I mean, that's our main source of phosphorus all around the world. I just read an article it was in the New Yorker the other day, about phosphorus. I'm glad it's, you know, being highlighted again, because, you know, some people think 20 years from now, we're going to be out of phosphorus.   Craig Macmillan  7:40  I think so.   Paul Schreiner  7:41  And we're going to be in a world of hurt. Yeah. So it's hard to know for sure. Other people estimate we've got hundreds of years, but I don't know how good these estimates are. But helping plants get phosphorus means we don't need as much phosphorus to apply as a fertilizer. This is becoming an issue for basically the whole globe and human production. Yeah, their biggest role is Phosphorus, they also probably help do other things in plants, which I can kind of go down a list if you want.   Craig Macmillan  8:07  Well, before we do that, I do want to do that. Because I think that that's crucial because a number of ideas have come up and some I think are probably accurate. Some I think are not, but I don't know, AMF, it's a parasite or it's a symbiotic organism?   Paul Schreiner  8:21  Yeah there symbionts.   Craig Macmillan  8:23  Okay, there's symbionts. Now, how does the plant and the fungi interact? Are there things that go into the root or the root is coded by something? Or how does that work?   Paul Schreiner  8:34  Yeah, so that's, it's a pretty interesting process. If you start at the very beginning of a naked root, let's say, you know, a root does not colonize this starting to grow in soil. It sends out signals that the fungus consents, or the fungi, you know, there's more than one fungus in this group. Some of those signals, we already know what those are, like Striga lactones are one for example, you know, complicated term, but it's just a particular group of compounds plants make, the fungi can sense that. And they can grow towards the root, you know, the hyphy of the fungus, when it touches the root or makes contact with the root, it forms what's called an apex thorium, and then it makes a penetration peg and can basically punches through the wall of the root. This is the same way that fungal pathogens, you know, who are bad fungi, let's say right, they also use the same kind of mechanism. And typically when that's happening, you know, there's enzymes involved, bits of the cell wall of the plant and or some of its cuticle get kind of chewed up by enzymes and it releases certain compounds and then the plant can say, Oh, I know this one's a bad guy, or sometimes a plant is producing enzymes, for example, kinase that's trying to degrade the fungus itself and then you release certain other signal compounds, so the plant can sense that and in certain pathogens. We know that a very specific metabolite can be sensed by the plant and it stimulates the plant to respond in a defense response with the mycorrhizal fungi. The defense response is repressed.   Craig Macmillan  10:00  Okay, oh.   Paul Schreiner  10:01  Yeah, and so part of that is probably the kinds of chemicals that the and fungi have that are being released, you know, through these various enzymatic interactions have yet to be recognized by the plant as as the bad guy. Anyway, that's, that's maybe getting a little too into the weeds. But yeah, it all starts in the same way like a pathogen trying to get in or even, you know, there's a group of parasitic plants that form these things called hostaria, that attack roots of other plants. Same kind of process.   Craig Macmillan  10:31  It sounds to me like there's an enzymatic reaction, and then also a signaling reaction, which would probably be some kind of a protein, I would guess it's complicated, or it's a feedback thing in that, oh, I've been poked, oh, I'm gonna do this, Hey, wait a minute, this is okay. And then they kind of settles into a balance, I guess. Is that fair to say?   Paul Schreiner  10:49  Yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it. It's really complicated. And I mean, we only are beginning to understand the way they communicate. You know, there's a whole new class of compounds called effector proteins, which are secreted by different organisms and soil plant can recognize a lot of those, it crosses many things like even goes to nematodes, right? Like this is all kind of newer stuff that we're learning. But the bottom line is, the am fungi get in because they don't stimulate a defense response in the plant. And that's because there's been at least 500 million years of coevolution the plant knows these guys are okay, these are the good guys. Once they're inside, they grow throughout the cortex of fine roots. And then they form these things called arbuscules. And that's where they get their name. So the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi form arbuscles, our bus skills are basically like a little tree, if you can see a picture of it, it looks like a little tree inside a root cortical cell. It's just basically a way that both the fungus and the plant increase their surface area contact by like, a huge amount, you know, like, like, imagine what a tree looks like above ground, you know, like, especially without the leaves on the wintertime is a great time. That's exactly what it arbuscular Looks like in miniature inside a root cortical cell, the plant membrane grows all the way around that there's all kinds of activity that arbuscule cell is super active, because there's a lot of metabolic things happening. And that's where the plant and the fungus are exchanging nutrients,   Craig Macmillan  12:17  then then exchange is cell wall to cell wall. It's not puncturing into a cell, or is it punching into? Oh, heck, what's the word I'm looking for, a pipeline?   Paul Schreiner  12:28  No, the and fungi don't get into the vascular tissues of the plant, they actually colonize these cortical cells, they're sort of like, if you think about leaves, leaves the cells, we think about most of the mesophyll, or the spongy mesophyll. They're the ones that are doing photosynthesis, right? In the root cells that are most active in the fine roots are the cortical cells. That's where most of the activity is happening. So the fungi colonize there, they form these arbusculs which is, I mean, they're, they're amazing structures, they're very cool. They're short lived, like, a lot of times in arbuscular, will form, develop, and then degrade within, say, a week to 10 day period, you know, so it's like a fairly rapid turnover during that you increase the surface contact between the two organisms, but there's always still a membrane on the fungal side and a membrane on the plant side that keeps those two organisms separate, you know, their cytoplasm doesn't mix. You know, that would be weird, kind of, you know, would be weird. Yeah, we just don't see that in biology, you know, they really have much greater metabolic activity in those arbuscular cells. So what happens is, the fungus is giving phosphorus to the plant in this process, and other nutrients. And then in exchange, the plant is giving the fungus sugars. And we now know also fatty acids. Yeah, that's been a recent discovery in the last two decades. Anyway, I can't remember exactly when it came out. We now know because of genome sequencing efforts, that this group of fungi lack the ability to make fatty acids, they actually get those from the plant as well.   Craig Macmillan  14:01  So we've got the arbuscules on the roots. That's kind of the structure, we've got the peg in there. Now what's going on away from the roots? Are these big long, multi celled single identifiable organisms, or is it kind of a community or what what's going on?   Paul Schreiner  14:19  There are different fungi. Okay, so there's multiple species, a single root can have many species of fungi inside it. However, those species also probably mark out some territory. This part is still a little bit unclear because it's really hard to pinpoint this stuff. Just as an example, our research vineyard here at Oregon State University that I work on, even though I'm ARS I also work in in part of OSU, our research vineyard. I think we found 19 Different mycorrhizal fungi. colonizing the groups, the roots of the grape vines, you know, there's a fair number, how they actually interact on a very tiny scale like within an individual single individual root is it's hard to know for sure, that's again Getting off into the weeds a bit.   Craig Macmillan  15:01  Not so much because I'm going somewhere with this.   Paul Schreiner  15:04  I want to get back to your question though about what's happening outside because that's really critical. Yeah, what's happening inside is we have these aruscules and hyphae growing inside the root, and it can be, it can be very intense, especially in Grapes. Grapes are a super host, in my view, they really love mycorrhiza they get heavily colonized. But then on the outside out in the soil, the naked hyphae, if you will, of the mycorrhizal fungi are exploring the soil. And that external phase we call extra radical hyphae, it actually is physiologically different than what's on the inside of the root. I'm trying to think of a good analogy, but basically, the inside part has a different function than the outside part. And so the inside part is trying to get carbon from the plant give the plant phosphorus and other nutrients, the outside part is mining the soil for that phosphorus, exploring the soil, it also probably exudes a significant amount of its carbon into the soil and helps the soil microbial community get a carbon source as well. And these fungi seem to play a critical role in helping soil aggregate and or resist erosion, basically, I mean, the evidence of this is, is pretty clear. But we also know that roots do the same function, especially root hairs, you know, so one way to think about these fungi is they're, they're sort of like root hairs. Except they're even finer, you know, their job is to connect root to the soil and to the soil, water and nutrient supply   Craig Macmillan  16:30  Two spatial questions. One, when they say they explore space, how deep do we find an organism? Do we find a fungus that's connected to a to a vine or plant, right? So how far down is it going? And then how far out in lateral space is it going?   Paul Schreiner  16:44  People have studied this by using artificial system where we can put a screen for example, like we can grow a plant in a greenhouse in soil, have it be colonized by microbes and fungi, and then put a screen in place that the roots cannot cross. But the fungi can, you know, something below like, or I don't know, somewhere in the ballpark of 40 micron diameter screen, so very fine screen like a silk screen, the hyphae can grow in there. So like people have shown they can grow 15 or 20 centimetres away, no problem, you know, significant distance when you're talking about soil as far as how deep they go in soil, that varies a lot with the rooting depth of whatever the plant of interest is, or, you know, the ecosystem, we tend to see greater colonization in the, in the surface soil, which just fits everything else that happens in the surface soil, right? I mean, that's where more of the water and nutrients are being turned over. It's also you know, where the soil environment is more favorable to life, right, because of this whole soil structure, idea and porosity, allowing oxygen to get into the soil in a vineyard. Particularly, you know, we always talk about vineyards and how the roots go all the way to China kind of thing, right?   Craig Macmillan  17:52  Until you hit clay or limestone.   Paul Schreiner  17:54  Sometimes roots can go really far. I mean, 30 meters I've seen reported and get into, you know, basically rock, right? There's not too much mycorrhizal fungi down where we're there in rock, we did the study, again, it was at the research vineyard. And when you get into what is known as the sea horizon, in the soil, which we would typically think of as the subsoil, it's where it's more compact, there's less porosity, and it's pretty dense, right? And it's more like clay, colonization drops off a lot, you know, we might have 90% of roots are colonized in the topsoil. But in the subsoil might be 30%. That's because many things, one, the environment is just not suitable for life in general, at that depth, because it's compacted, there's less oxygen, it's a different environment.   Craig Macmillan  18:37  And again, you've mentioned AMF need more than just a plant root, they need to be out in the environment, there needs to be oxygen, there needs to be water, there needs to be other, there needs to be a favorable environment for life period. Right now, one thing we've talked about water holding. In other interviews, we've talked about water holding capacity improves in fields that have a higher or more successful AMF population, and that you talked about aggregates, it's part of that picture. We've talked about nutrient movement particular phosphorus, one of the things that I've heard people just kind of say colloquially is that if you have a meaningful mix, whatever the popular population, ecosystem involving AMF, it's going to lead to greater stability in the vine, and give the vine an ability to tolerate drought stress a little bit better. Are you finding those things? Are those things true? Even if it's kind of anecdotal? I mean, you're scientist, so you don't like anecdotal probably. But   Paul Schreiner  19:33  Yeah, so that's, you know, that's the interesting world of science in my world. I need to have evidence for what I say, especially, especially when it comes to publishing scientific papers, right?   Craig Macmillan  19:43  Well, of course, yeah.   Paul Schreiner  19:44  But then there's also opinion, you know, sometimes you can't show things in science. I mean, science isn't perfect, right? Mistakes happen, and some things are just more intractable and difficult to show, however, okay, on a broad scale, there's pretty good evidence that mycorrhizal fungi helped Plants tolerate drought stress better than non mycorrhizal plants when you know when they've been compared. So that has certainly a long term consequence that you might think would eventually relate to stability in some way.   Craig Macmillan  20:16  So one of the reasons that I asked that is science, Applied Science, especially applied Agricultural Science often is moved by growers noticing something or having an image in their head about how something works. And then folks like you come in and say, Okay, well, let's find out. Another thing that I've heard people mentioned that I don't know is true or not, is do AMF actually move water into the plant? We know that they transport minerals, or they actually move water into the plant?   Paul Schreiner  20:42  Yeah, that's a great question. The answer to that question at this point in time is, they don't move water in a way that we would like to think of it, they're not acting like a pipe, because their own cytoplasm is a, you know, it's a vital part of them, it's just like us, you know, like the inside of ourselves, we're not just gonna give that away, people used to think of them like, Oh, they're just pipes out there, and the water just flows right through them into the plant. Well, that's impossible, that just can't happen. What does happen potentially, is water moves on the external surface of the hyphae. Because similar to a plant root, they exude some carbon, they have some structure makes connection to soil water in the pores of soil. And so in theory, because these fungi are much finer diameter, let's say 50 to 100 times smaller in diameter than a root is, you know, fine root of a plant so they can get into smaller pores inside the soil and get access to soil water that the root may not be able to get access to. On top of that, there's potential especially because they help aggregate soil and help improve soil structure, they may actually in the long run, improve soil water holding capacity, because they're adding to that long term carbon storage of the soil. It's really well known that as you add organic matter to soil, you improve the water holding capacity of soil. The am fungi do do that. I mean, partly it's this bit of carbon that they exude into the soil rhizosphere itself or the we call it the micro rhizosphere. Even their turnover. So when they die, or when they're eaten by something else, they're also then contributing to that pool of soil carbon, and the more old and complex that carbon is, probably the more it's tends to be tied to soil, water and small pores. Yes, they do help, we can show that they help plants take up a little bit more water, but it's not a big deal. You know, it's kind of like let's say the plant on a given day use 10 liters of water and you let the plant go to the wilt point. Maybe the mycorrhizal plant got another 10 mils of water out of 10 liters, you know, it's not a huge amount.   Craig Macmillan  22:55  They're not the pipeline, but they are changing the soil environment such that the water holding capacity is changing. And that makes it more water for the mines to pick up. So it's not that there is a pipeline through the mycorrhizal fungi but that it's changing the environment in a way that makes it more likely that the water will be held and that the mind then has it available.   Paul Schreiner  23:12  Right and that that effect is small, it's hard to show because it's very small. The other thing that they probably help with the plants is that as soil dries, nutrients are harder to get. And particularly those nutrients that are more immobile and soil like phosphorus, a big part of why we see improved drought tolerance in a mycorrhizal plant is because they are accessing soil phosphorus better than a non mycorrhizal plant can and that's contributing to the overall drought tolerance of that plant. So some of our effects that we see are an indirect effect of improved phosphorus nutrition that goes across to any of the other functions that AMS might help plants do. Like another big category that I feel I should mention is there's good evidence that mycorrhizal fungi help plants resist or become more tolerant to other pathogens in the soil. So the bad guys or even nematodes, a lot of work has been done on this, you know, the experiments run the gamut, like they're there all over the place, because, you know, we're talking about really complex things. One of the things that we know, is that just improving the overall phosphorus nutrition of the plant and or other nutrients, sometimes it's, it might be another new nutrient that's limiting that gets you added tolerance to to any of these other effects, right? Whether it's drought, whether it's a root pathogen, even like insect feeding on above ground parts of the plant, you know, I mean, if you're in a better nutritional state, you're going to be better able to tolerate a lot of things. A lot of what happens with AMF is linked to their role in phosphorus, you know, so going back to this phosphorus story, some of my colleagues get mad at me because I they think I'm too opinionated about phosphorus. But I mean   Craig Macmillan  24:59  You You're having beers with people. And they're like, Paul, when you get off the phosphorous thing?   Paul Schreiner  25:05  Yeah, they're like, come on, Paul, you know, they play a role in nitrogen too.   Craig Macmillan  25:10  Okay, so we're in at a time with a couple of things I just absolutely, positively have to hit on if we draw the big old box around this topic, we would say, AMF are beneficial for vineyards. Okay, so what kinds of things can I do as a grower to encourage a AMF and what kinds of things should I not do that might dink the AMF community?   Paul Schreiner  25:29  Very good question. The most important thing probably is to think about AMF, before you plant a vineyard. And so like in some of the materials that I've I've, I've written about and published on, especially for like trade journals and trying to help growers, it's really important in my mind to separate pre plant versus post plant, and at the pre plant stage is really a time you should think about mycorrhizal fungi because that's the time. If they're not there, you've got a problem. But chances are, they're already there. It's also the pretty much the time that you can add mycorrhiza and they're going to do something, you have an opportunity to inoculate vines if you want when they go into the ground. The biggest thing about pre plant is what is the past history of that land, especially the recent couple of years if you've had plants on it, especially if their host plants for mycorrhizal fungi, which almost all of our crop plants are, even if it came out of say, forest land, and then was converted to vineyard. Typically, there's a AMF there because even in the forest, which are dominated by Ecto mycorrhizal trees, for example, here, and in the north, west, for example, there are still understory plants that rely on AMF. And so the AMF are there, normally, you don't have to inoculate. But knowing what the land history is, is very helpful. The worst thing you can do is of course, apply a fumigant, which we are doing much, much less now than we used to. Not that that will will stop entirely. But if you fumigate especially with like in the old days, methyl bromide was the main fumigant used, you'll kill the mycorrhizal fungi. And so you would want to inoculate if you did that. The other thing is if you have a really, really long period of fallow land, and when I say fallow, I mean fallow no weeds, nothing, most of our weed species also support AMF. So I mean, even having weeds on the ground before you plant a vineyard is going to keep the population up. And again, that goes back to the biology, this group of fungi that they can't grow on their own. And so eventually they'll be depleted in soil if there's no plants to keep feeding them. So that kind of relates back to the very beginning of our conversation, which is why this group of fungi is different. So like, basically avoid long fallow plant a cover crop of clover, for example, that's a good one, because Clover is very heavily colonized. It also provides nitrogen, which is good for vines, you know, especially at establishment and avoid fumigants. Once you get to the post plant side of things, I think the most critical things to think about are tillage, and then fertilizer use.   Craig Macmillan  27:56  What happens there?   Paul Schreiner  27:59  With tillage, you breakup the mycorrhizal network that's in the soil. And so like we talked about that external phase, or what we call the extra radical hyphae of this group of fungi, that phase is out in the soil and it actually survives and overwinters even for example, like you know, some of it dies back, but some of it remains if you keep destroying that with tillage. Eventually you reduce the population of AMF, there are a few fungi that seem to be much more tolerant of tillage. And these are some of our favorite lab rat ones, for example. Ones that are tolerant of disturbance have been ones that are most often done well in the laboratory and are easily easy to culture. Again, we're culturing on a plant but still similar kind of thing. So tillage is one thing. The fertilizer issue is I would avoid both high nitrogen and high phosphorus inputs. We have shown in some of my work if you apply phosphorus, for example, to the foliage, which some people like to do, you can reduce mycorrhizal colonization. It's all tied into the whole plant response to these this group of fungi, you know, plants evolved with the fungi, right? It's not just the fungi that were evolving. They know that the main function is phosphorus. So when the plant has high phosphorus status, it down regulates the colonization by this group of fungi. Well, when you get plants phosphorus, especially to the foliage, it sends a signal to the roots, I'm very happy, and it tends to reduce colonization.   Craig Macmillan  29:24  Specifically, how many units of nitrogen are we talking about?   Paul Schreiner  29:28  That gets into tricky territory.   Craig Macmillan  29:30  You know, if I'm putting on a 777 am I am i doing a bad thing?   Paul Schreiner  29:35  Probably not course, it also depends on the rate, you know, I mean, 777 But you're putting out 200 pounds per acre that's   Craig Macmillan  29:42  Yeah, that's why use the term units.   Speaker 2  29:45  Yeah, you know, and the thing about viticulture is we don't need as much nitrogen and as much phosphorus that as we do in other classic farming crops, you know, like the big the big crops corn soybean commodity. Yeah, commodity grapes are super cheap. super efficient at getting nutrients, other work that I do, which is actually more of more of my time spent on nutrition than it is on mycorrhizal fungi. But, you know, we've shown that high nitrogen is not necessarily a good idea in the vineyard, right. And most people know that. And almost intuitively, you don't want a massive canopy, that shading the fruit.   Craig Macmillan  30:19  In a vineyard, if I'm putting on nitrogen at a replacement rate, so I'm looking at how many pounds per acre I took out, I'm guessing and how many pounds per ton that relates to taking in cycling from canes and leaves that fall on the ground and go into the soil. You know, most vineyards you're looking at not a lot. So I've looked at some organic systems that are putting in, you know, two pounds per acre, the highest I think I've ever seen was 25 pounds per acre. Eight is a pretty good number kind of on average total. It sounds to me like these replacement level rates, not the high rate, but the replacement level rates where we're, we purposely are trying not to get a bigger canopy, we're not trying to bump a vine. That sounds like those are fine.   Paul Schreiner  30:58  I think so we've done work here, see, it was in Chardonnay, and also Pinot Noir. And we were putting out 20 and 40 pounds of N per acre. These are not high rates in in my view, especially when we look at agriculture as a whole right, we can see a little bit of a depression in mycorrhizal colonization, when we apply, say 40 pounds, or 60 pounds of nitrogen per acre, we don't wipe it out entirely, you know, the vines also can recover. The other thing is, the kind of nitrogen you put out may play a role as well. More soluble classic conventional fertilizers that have more soluble N and especially more soluble P will probably have a more negative impact. If you're putting out more organic sources of those fertilizers, because they're more complex, you know, they don't cause as quick of a response in the plant. And it does seem that that does not have as a negative impact on AMF, as the more soluble forms.   Craig Macmillan  31:58  There we go. Now we're out of time, unfortunately, this could go on forever, you and I should get together sometime and just hang out talk about phosphorus all you want. What is one piece of advice that you would give to grape growers related to this topic, especially if they want to increase or maintain in AMF population in their vineyard?   Paul Schreiner  32:17  You know, the most important thing is to be conservative with inputs. I think that's probably the the key thing conservative with both water inputs and nitrogen inputs and phosphorus inputs. You know, the role of fungicides, so far does not really appear to be a big deal. And again, we don't have time to go into all that. But the evidence that we've collected so far suggests that you know our fungicide spray programs, for example, which we're talking about controlling things in the canopy, I'm not seeing a clear effect on microns of fungi because of that. If you overwater over fertilize. That's when you're going to do damage to Microsoft fungi, you know that that's clear. And then the other piece of advice is think about it pre plant, because that's the time you can actually do something put a cover crop in prior to planting the vineyard and I bet 99% of the time, the mycorrhizal population that's there will be sufficient to colonize the vine roots and be healthy goes back to just very briefly the fact that I consider grape vines, a very, very receptive host for mycorrhizal fungi. I've looked at other crop plants, including other woody perennials, and grape vines are so heavily colonized. It's it's truly amazing.   Craig Macmillan  33:28  That is cool. Where can people find out more about you? And or more about this topic? You mentioned research that's been published recently on some of these topics. Where can we find you?   Paul Schreiner  33:39  So the easy way to find me is type my name Paul Schreiner. And grapevine will be in the title in the show notes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you just put my name and grapevine nutrition, or grapevine and AMS, I should pop up as the first thing on Google. But you can also just email me paul.schreiner@usda.gov. And I'm happy to provide for those that are more interested in getting into the weeds. I can provide you some lists of good references and whatnot. So I'm happy to do that.   Craig Macmillan  34:05  That's fantastic. My guest today has been Paul Shriner. He is a research plant physiologist with USDA ARS. He's based in Corvallis, Oregon. This has been really fun for me. I hope it's fun for our listeners, too. This is such a hot topic. And so thank you very much for being on the podcast. Really appreciate it. Paul,   Unknown Speaker  34:22  Thank you so much, Craig. It was great having this conversation   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Did you know that standard wine packaging, including the bottle and the process, is 42% of the wine's total carbon footprint? That statistic is exactly what inspires Erica Landin-Lofving, Chief Sustainability Officer at Vintage Wine Estates to explore alternative packaging. Lightweight bottling positively impacts the full circle sustainability of wine from saving money on glass and transportation to the quality of work for the people lifting cases to less wear and tear on equipment. Erica covers challenges and solutions related to all types of alternative packaging (wine in a bag, wine in a box tetra pak, lightweight glass) including choosing the best packaging for your brand, quality signaling, getting leadership to buy in, what changes will be most sustainable, and educating consumers. References: 171: How to Farm Wine Grapes for Climate Change Alloy Wine Works How Climate Changes will Change the Wine Climate Is Wine in Cans Your New Favorite Format?  SIP Certified The Changing Landscape Of Sustainability (Video) Vineyard Team – Become a Member Vintage Wine Estates What does a sustainable water strategy look like in the wine industry? Why is sustainability now not a choice but a necessity? What does it mean for wine businesses? Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  My guest today is Erica Lofving. She is Chief Sustainability Officer with Vintage Wine Estates. And we're going to talk about sustainable wine packaging today. Welcome to the podcast. Erica.   Erica Landin-Lofving  0:09  Thank you happy to be here.   Craig Macmillan  0:10  You have done a lot of work on sustainable packaging. It's obviously an area that not only you're interested to, but there's a major component to the work that you do with with Vintage Wine Estate. How did you get into it? What is your interest? What kinds of things you've worked on recently?   Erica Landin-Lofving  0:24  Well, I first got into sustainable packaging, maybe six, seven years. Back when I was still living in Sweden, I'm Swedish. I was consulting for the Swedish wine monopolies, Systembolaget. They are possibly the biggest buyer of wine in the world. And they have sustainability as a core issue. And they started lifting the packaging, and did lifecycle analysis together with the other Scandinavian monopolies and saw that packaging bottling and the process of doing it was up to 42% of the total carbon footprint of a wine, which is huge. Of course, they started focusing on on that because of course being big buyers, they can require changes in packaging of their buyers. So they launched projects on lightweighting bottles and alternative packaging, which they are still very strong and probably leading in the world. So that's that's when I got interested at that time, there was almost no discussion about packaging as part of sustainability and wine. We talked vineyards, vineyards, vineyards, maybe a little bit of winemaking, but packaging got ignored most of the sustainability certifications around the world don't even mention packaging, or didn't at least at that time. Actually, that was my project for the monopoly. I went through basically all the sustainability certifications around the world. Comlpex job. Let me tell you that.   Craig Macmillan  1:39  Yeah, I guess.   Erica Landin-Lofving  1:41  So of course, when I started at Vintage, I, you know, packaging was one of my key topics that I want to bring up. It was also really interesting to see we did a survey last year when we set our strategy I've been with Vintage for a year and a half. So one of my first things was to start collecting the information called a materiality analysis, basically pinpointing which areas are key sustainability areas. And as part of that, we did a survey in house and a lot of our staff were also interested in packaging, primary secondary packaging, and then of course, the waste of incoming packaging. So that that became one of our core core topics, and a very exciting one to be to be working on.   Craig Macmillan  2:22  For those of us who don't know what to what kind of companies of Vintage Wine Estates, what do they do?   Erica Landin-Lofving  2:28  Oh, yeah, Vintage Wine Estaes is a group we own 13 wineries, I believe and have 50 brands on top. Plus we do contract production for for external brands. We went public. Last June, June 20. June 22. It or is it 20 this year?   Craig Macmillan  2:47  Yeah. Oh, that's right. No, that's right. No, I do. Yeah. That was kind of a big deal.   Erica Landin-Lofving  2:53  It was a big deal. There aren't. Yeah, there aren't that many public public companies. So year and a half ago, we went public. Yeah, I know. That was that was part of the goal of of Pat Roney, our founder was to build a company to take public so that was definitely a big deal for the company. And we're continuing to grow. A lot of our brands, we will buy grapes, we buy juice, we even buy finished wines. So packaging is one of the sustainability aspects we can control there. For me, there's there's two big aspects to to packaging, of course, that the wine bottle is bigger than any of the other packaging considerations. The one that I'm most attached to is lightweighting. of glass, find alternative packaging is interesting. And so in Sweden, I think it's 56% of the wine sold by volume is in bag in box. But they are also big buyers of Tetra Pack, PET bottles, cans, wine and cans, and it becomes an interesting market to watch. I'm not completely positive to all the alternative packagings and we can we can get into that if they do have a much lower carbon footprint. But there are other considerations. I cans I am some fairly positive too. But let's dive into that separately. But I'm still a firm believer that the glass wine bottle is going to be our key wine packaging for the foreseeable future. However, this attachment that consumers and therefore producers have to heavy bottle being a signifier of quality of the wine, we've got to let that go. That is that got outdated when we set the Paris, Paris climate goals like that's it has nothing to do with the quality of the wine. This is part of the message that is finally slowly catching hold. And it's gone a lot further in Europe professionally in Scandinavia than it has in the US still, but I believe that we're heading that direction. I've started seeing articles on the negative aspects of a heavyweight bottle in New York Times ,Wall Street Journal,Wine Enthusiast and when that starts coming, it's like we're starting to get that message into the mainstream. It is going to bring change. Fancy wine wants to be sold in a heavy bottle still,   Craig Macmillan  4:59  Based on On that basis, we're now getting national non wine press paying attention to this a little bit. Do you think there might be a groundswell of public interest attitude belief that might put some pressure on wineries to reduce their glass weight to go to a lighter weight package?   Erica Landin-Lofving  5:15  I believe so I believe we're in the early days of it still, I think the people that we're going to reach first are the wine connoisseurs that read those newspapers, magazines, and want to be part of early adopters who want to show that they know something, as well as the millennial consumer who is not as concerned with tradition, and is very concerned with environmental aspects and more knowledgeable in general on on environmental impact. I think those are the two groups that will start making the change from two directions.   Craig Macmillan  5:45  Now, do you think that there is a curve of this behavior that's related to price, so somebody's going to buy a $100 bottle of wine in a traditional dead leaf green Berg bottle as opposed to a big heavy deep punt? You know, I've been doing some analysis, you can have a bottle that's say 400 grams, or you can have a bottle of over 1000 grams big difference? Am I going to pay the same for 400? As opposed to 1000? Do you think?   Erica Landin-Lofving  6:12  I think you will, when you understand why I mean for 400 is still an extremely lightweight bottle. 420 grams is kind of what the international wine industry has set as the limit for true lightweight bottle in the US. I know a lot of producers who speak about eco weight or lightweight and they mean 470 to 490 grams, I've started speaking in terms of true lightweight as something under 420. Those bottles do feel quite light, I think they will be their shoo ins for anything under $20. But I think for for these $100 bottles, moving them from the 900 Gram 32 ounce massive pieces down to more normal weight, like 500 500 grams, we should be able to do that. And again, this is where we're New York Times and Wall Street Journal's writing matters the most because they reach that consumer, when the first adopters there, start understanding this, they might react negatively to one of those super heavy bottles. I do now. I mean, this has been something I've been I've been looking at for a long time. But now if I lift a bottle and it's a 900 gram bottle, I just say like, seriously, why? Why would I want to buy this? Also, why would I want to drag this home and then drag it to recycling?   Craig Macmillan  7:24  Well, I think that you're absolutely right, that once we get below about a $20 retail price point, the lightweighting seems to be kind of a no brainer. As we push up. Hopefully that message will get out I think from a sustainability standpoint. But I also do wonder how far that can kind of go. Right. I remember, this is how old I am. I remember when very expensive Napa Cabernets came in a straight sided forest green Bordeaux bottle with a just a big square paper label on it and a very cheap foil. Now I don't think I could get $100 for that package. Even there's been a lot of work that's been done. And if I understand it correctly, this is you know, social psych stuff. If you give a consumer two bottles, one's heavy one's lighter, you say this is the same product even? Which what will you pay? Their willingness to pay is higher for the heavier package? Yeah, if that's true, right. That's a tough psychology to ignore.   Erica Landin-Lofving  8:20  That's a tough psychology to ignore.   Craig Macmillan  8:22  So some of it, I think, is consumer level. But I'd also like to hear a little bit on what's going on behind the scenes on the production side, what kinds of conversations ideas, potential is there because it seems like there might be some work to do there on the marketing side. But there's some work to do. Maybe behind the scenes side.   Erica Landin-Lofving  8:36  We'll just say that imagine that they were doing this test again. But that the test subjects had been given an article to read that said that the environmental impact of the bottle was the biggest contributor to the carbon footprint of the wine, how many of them their mind, and that's what I believe is the key. I think as long as the consumer does not know this difference, we will see a preference for the heavier bottles, the more that information disseminates into the marketplace, the more impact it will have. I will also say that so behind the scenes, one of the calculations that I'm doing is that I have a much bigger impact taking a SKU that has 300,000 case production and moving it from 500 grams to 400 grams. Then I do taking a SKU that's in a seven 750 gram bottle and moving it to 400 grams, but the production is only 1000 cases or even even less. So for that reason, my focus and our internal discussions center around the big volume wines. That said there there are bigger volume wines that come in those super heavy bottles. I For me, it's the super heavy bottles. We've got to watch out there because while I would like to make the move purely from a sustainability perspective, there is the marketing risk, but there's also a risk of not making the change. because I'll just tell you when I was in Sweden last time now Sweeden, as I said, much further along than the US market when it comes to consumer understanding of sustainability and an interest in sustainability. I went into the store and I was asking for advice on something cool and something high end. And the guy picked out two bottles, and he said, Oh, this one is great. This is Niepoort I, you know, I love this wine. 10 years of age for selling it aged, which is, you know, not always easy to find in a store. He said, but you might not want it. It's a super heavy bottle. And I said, Oh, why do you think I might not want it now? The sustainability impact is is pretty big. I don't know. I've had people hesitate. I was like, wow. They advised me away from a really cool wine because it's an a heavy bottle. And and I liked that. I know that I know that Jancis Robinson, for example, called out Joe Wryneck iIn South Africa, great producer, amazing wines, and definitely a sustainability champion. And this was a couple of years ago, you know, in in her magazine, she said you can't have accountability, profiling, make these beautiful wines, and put them in a super heavy bottle, if the message doesn't add up. And again, the more we get that, the more you're going to have high end consumers turn away from these bottles and be like, nope, gotta gotta change that.   Craig Macmillan  11:19  Maybe we're getting groundswell on both sides. Now, I want to get technical, I've done some of this work myself and feel like I have failed miserably. Probably not entirely true. But tell me about your methodology when you're looking at this with glass and you're trying to get a carbon footprint sense, because what I'm guessing when you're telling me what you're doing is you want to come back to management ownership and say, Hey, this is how much reduction we have in ourCO2 equivalent. Is that fair is that by alright?   Erica Landin-Lofving  11:46  Let's be completely fair, the the message to leadership is, this is how much we're saving on glass. And this is the sustainability messaging we can attach to it. But you know, the savings, CO2 reduction, for a lightweight bottle will almost always come at a lower price point. For us. One of the challenges has been finding really nice quality molds with perfect stability and stability. I don't mean to make the wine stable. I mean, we have some high speed bottling lines, we don't want it to crush in the bottling line, or we're losing speed. So finding these really nice looking molds, making sure that they're not shorter and smaller, we had a launch with 100 gram bottle on the on the Canadian market, it was shorter. We did not want to bring that to the to the US market.   Craig Macmillan  12:29  Well, why not? Oh,   Erica Landin-Lofving  12:30  The funny thing is you, you get a surprising number of people writing in saying, Hey, you're cheating me out of wine, I see this bottomless is smaller than a regular wine bottle. Right?   Craig Macmillan  12:40  Right. Yeah.   Erica Landin-Lofving  12:42  Especially the amount of it just didn't look looked nice on the shelf. But it makes me makes me laugh. And it makes me also understand the the millions of packaging said had that say this, you know, this package was full at the transport and items might have settled or things like that, because I understand that those companies were getting callbacks, saying, Hey, you're cheating me out of product. It still needs to look nice, then you have the calculation on saving on glass cost. But then you also get the calculations on saving in other parts of the production, which include transportation, because if you do have your bottles, a lot of our trucks aren't physically full, they are at their weight capacity, you lower the wine bottle weight, and you can load that truck to capacity before before hitting the weight limit. That's a saving right there. It's also an additional carbon carbon saving that I might not calculate. I would love it if I sat on all the data to do that. But I know that there is a gain there. But also things like throughout the supply chain, when you have people handling it, it's better for the for the people, it's better for the people who are lifting those cases. And if that's our crew, or if it is if it is the crew in the store or or logistics company, there's less wear and tear on people. I would personally if I was working in a wine store rather restock shelves with with the lightweight bottles or lighter weight bottles and those super heavy ones.   Craig Macmillan  14:05  Part of my job is I work in the tasting room. And it's amazing as a server, you know what a huge difference it makes, just carrying stuff from place to place and you can't tell whether something's full or not because of the weight of the glass is darn close to the weight of the wine, you know, it's drinking sense. So yes, absolutely. We do need to take that into account. There's wear and tear on people and there's efficiency questions. I think the mechanization question is a good one depending on which direction you're gonna go, what kind of molds you have and how fast you're trying to do it.   Erica Landin-Lofving  14:35  The super heavy mold so we're talking like the 32 ounce mold that's also wear and tear on equipment and extra energy for the for the forklifts and trucks transporting it around. I'm not at the level where I'm doing calculations on that but definitely in the bottling line running a 32 ounce bottle this is going to be rough around the mechanics. And again, lifting it with a forklift is going to take more energy I mean In basic physics, you might not know the exact gain from a lighter weight bottle. But there's definitely gains throughout.   Craig Macmillan  15:07  You mentioned it before. And this is a really interesting question because there's a winery that I'm familiar with, that's in the oh, golly, 25 to $75 retail range with their products at least. And they just brought out a bag and box product.   Erica Landin-Lofving  15:22  Tablets Creek?   Craig Macmillan  15:23  Maybe.   Erica Landin-Lofving  15:26  I love those guys. I really...   Craig Macmillan  15:30  I think we can leave that in the podcast, can't we?   Erica Landin-Lofving  15:34  It was a was three liter.   Craig Macmillan  15:36  I'm sorry, yes, three litre, and was a customer who brought this to me because we were talking about these issues. And they said, hey, you know, I just saw this product. Maybe I'm not gonna put super high end wines, really expensive wines. I mean, I don't want to have a $400 box product and then say, okay, you gotta drink all four bottles necessarily. But how many future do you think there is for that, or one liter turbo pack packaging and that kind of thing.   Erica Landin-Lofving  15:57  With those alternativepackagings, I'll just list the ones that I would look at. One is Tetra Pak, usually one liter, can be 77, or 750 milliliters to the PT plastic bottle, which is very often same size as a regular wine bottle. Aluminum can which can be between 25 centimeters and 33 centimeters. Generally, you have the wine pouch, which is the one and a half liter and the wine pouch is more or less like the inside of bag and box, it's usually a little bit thicker. And then you have the bag and box, which is generally three liters. I've seen two liters, frequently as well, the bag and box. As I said, it's 56% or more of the Swedish market by volume. It's popular as well in places like Norway, Finland, partially because it brings down the price of wine a little bit, but it's also growing a lot in France, supermarket sales.   Craig Macmillan  16:48  What kind of price points are we talking here? I know that I know. We're talking about years and things.   Unknown Speaker  16:53  Yeah, so I would say for three liter box, which is the equivalent of four bottles, I would say most of them lasted between 20 and $40. So at $40 because you have a lower packaging cost, lower lower handling cost, so on. So at $40 It's not a $10 bottle of wine. It's a $15 bottle of wine. I mean, it's not high end high end, but it's not bad wine either. What Tablas did launching $100 $100 box, so $25 a bottle. That was that was unusual, and it was a great PR thing and it got got people talking, I don't believe we're going to see mass market boxes in that price range. But I definitely think that there should be more 30 $40 boxes. There's one advantage of the bag in box, which is of course it's really just take one glass, it's also really easy to take three glasses not notice that you're taking three glasses every night. So you know, two sides, two sides to that. But it's a it's a pretty convenient format. And it's gone from being something that people hide in Sweden to something that you actually you know, you have people over for dinner, you put it out, maybe you poured into craft to make it look nicer. But it's it's not something that the mainstream consumer hides anymore. Maybe the wine geeks still shy away from it. Carbon footprint of wine in pouch or wine in bag and box is once we say it's it's less than a fourth of a lightweight bottle per liter equivalent.   Craig Macmillan  18:19  Wow. And huge.   Less than 1/6  of a traditional glass bottle at 540 grams.   Wow.   Erica Landin-Lofving  18:27  So yeah, it's big   Craig Macmillan  18:29  That's very attractive.   Erica Landin-Lofving  18:31  So let me tell you what I don't like about t.   Craig Macmillan  18:32  Yes, please do.   Erica Landin-Lofving  18:34  And honestly for you know, for your general consumer who consumes their wine within days or a week of buying it and who buys at the $15 price point. Sure. Go for the box. What I don't like about it is plastic recycling in the US is still pretty limited. So that pouch does not necessarily get recycled, which means plastic production and landfill. Don't love that. And then of course, most of the plastic pouches have a petroleum base. So fossil fossil base, you can you can weigh that against the carbon footprint and see what what it's important to you. The other thing is when I worked as a wine writer, many years back since we had so many quality wines and seven saying like 15 $20 wines in both box and bottle, maybe not $20 wines but let's say $15 We would as journalists, we would sometimes go and we would buy the same wine in bottle and the same by wine in box and make a comparison and 80% of the wines tasted tasted a little bit better in bottle 20% of the wines tasted better in the box and they were usually the ones who would have in the bottle needed a little bit age a little bit less sulfur or somehow just breathe more. Because it's not inert. That pouch is not inert. While the Swedish monopoly says it has says six month in six months there's no problem with a with a bag and box. I would like to do taste tests on. I think maybe what they're checking that acid and sulfur levels and VA and things like that aren't actually changing. But I do believe that there are some sensory changes over time.   Craig Macmillan  20:12  Interesting. What about cans.   Erica Landin-Lofving  20:13  Oooh I like cans.   Craig Macmillan  20:15  Aluminum is very attractive from recycling standpoint, it's one of the one thing that we seem to be able to do fairly well out in the US compared to plastic of things.   Unknown Speaker  20:23  I'll call out the US. So let's just say that glass recycling percentage in Scandinavia is 98 to 99%. In the US, the recycling rate is 31.1% for glass and in California and step up towards 60 beer and soft drink cans. So that's where we can classify wine cans to the recycling rate. It's actually 50. A little bit over 50% In the US, so isn't terrible. It's still almost half of Scandinavia, which is again 98%. But let's just say it's, it's not it's not terrible. So yes, it's decently easy to recycle. The carbon footprint is about twice that of a pouch or bag and box, but still, then less than half way less than half of lightweight glass bottle and about a third, a little less than a third of a standard weight bottle. So, so good. I liked the format. I can't I can't help it. I'm, I'm a bonafide wine geek. I drink the fun stuff. I like that. It's a small, small package. I like that it's very easy to transport. It is inert. It does have that little tiny plastic lining sometimes but I just think you can play with it. You can put fun wines in it if it doesn't suit all wines. And not all wines are good drinking from the county there. But I think it's a great packaging, especially for newer consumers, millennial consumers who aren't so stuffy about how things are supposed to be done. But you know, rosacea, white wines, orange wines, sparkling wines, lighter quaffable reds, and some fun packaging to go with it. Say like, why not? I like it. We we have one we have Alloy Alloy comes in cans. And we've done some specially can projects for festivals. But isn't it a nice format. I mean, if you're going to go to a festival or a picnic, and you're drinking out of plastic glass anyway, so you might as well just bring a can. I think it's a way for the wine industry to also tap into all those people that are drinking spiked kombucha and hard ciders and who are you know, necessarily dragging my bottle around.   Craig Macmillan  22:32  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I was a long time ago. But I forget the name of the product. There was an Australian product that came out and it was in a half size can. And you see sodas occasionally in this like smaller can. And I thought it was really interesting. And then I met an Australian winemaker who was visiting. And I asked him about it. And if he was familiar, he was oh, yeah, absolutely. Everybody loves those things are everywhere. It was like really knows, yeah, you don't need to take the thing. You dump it in your cooler and you put a bunch of ice over it. And anyway to the barbecue you are set. It's easy. It's great.   Erica Landin-Lofving  23:01  I do think a key thing is putting in like quality stuff.   Craig Macmillan  23:04  That's the question then is what's the quality level that we can kind of get to.   Erica Landin-Lofving  23:08  I think like a sweet spot a 10. A $10 canister is nice. Like don't make it the crap wines I want I want a little bit better quality and a little more fun ones and actually suitable to natural wines, natural wines to both from a style stylistic perspective. And also because you have to reduce your you can't add as much sulfur to to a canned wine or it becomes productive. So you have to adjust your..   Craig Macmillan  23:32  Yeah, we we keep coming back to millennials. And so I kind of want to wrap wrap this up on this topic. Again, based on your experience, your view, you obviously are on top of this, because you mentioned it several times. How much of a difference is there generally generationally in interest, and maybe even willingness to pay just the sustainability topic? For folks. It sounds like Millennials are much more interested in do more research on this than maybe the folks that from later or earlier generations. You see that continuing?   Erica Landin-Lofving  24:10  Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's with with younger generations, and I mean, I'm on the cusp of that myself. There's definitely more interest. And they are better at calling out BS too. They might, you know, they're not going to dig into every every number, but they they want a credible story and they want sustainability to be part of the story that you are telling about your wine. And yeah, I mean, they it's definitely one of the things that makes me hopeful is the more consumers is that we have a problem reaching them as one consumers but if we can pull them into the fold, one way of pulling them into the fold of wine lovers is actually To, to show this connection to the earth that we have in wine, I mean are seriously our product is so much more natural than a lot of the stuff that sold us, you know, no additives, no super sustainable, no carbon footprint, whatever they're selling it as it's still like a manufactured product in a, in a more synthetic way we have a direct connection to land, I think we need to communicate that to them. And part of that communication needs to it needs to consider sustainability that we are stewards of our land.   Craig Macmillan  25:29  So maybe just to editorialize for a second maybe not only on an individual level to individual wine companies, but maybe it's an industry wide, we need to do a better a better job messaging sustainability, and communicating to the consumer, especially apparently the millennial, what we're about what we do in in some of what our kind of standard practices are I you know, I mean, I remember when I first started farming years and years and years ago, the idea of cover crops was a little bit iffy. And I had one friend of mine, and he tried it, he says, you know, I'm farming two crops, I can barely farm one crop, and I'm farming two now, minimum and many years later. It's everywhere you just, of course you do you know, why wouldn't you? You know that so those changes there. Now it's a practice that I think it's an important practice that if people realize what's involved and why people do it, I think it could be very, very beneficial. Kind of wrapping up what one piece of advice or message or idea would you like to communicate to, let's say, winery owner or management or whatever on this topic, what's the one piece of like advice that you would have?   Erica Landin-Lofving  26:30  Well, I guess we've spent the last half hour talking about it, but it is definitely to consider the full scope of your packaging as part of your core sustainability work. Lift your eyes from just the Vinyard. It's super important, but include the winery and definitely include packaging, primary and secondary packaging and see what you can improve. Start asking questions, start asking your suppliers for information, ask your glass producer, what their coolest content is the recycled content, just start getting an understanding of what sustainable wine packaging is and how you can implement it and start communicating it to your customers, the more of us that tell the customer that these super heavyweight bottles are actually not an environmentally beneficial way of selling wine, the quicker the consumer is going to catch that and you know, what if you don't care at all about the environmental footprint, care about your your costs of goods, and help the rest of us get that message.   Craig Macmillan  27:24  Because one of the E's is economy economics, right? And that's part of the picture and controlling my costs is huge. Where can people find out more about you?   Erica Landin-Lofving  27:33  Oh, geez, I was to say I'm all over the internet. I've been a writer on other podcasts and speaking probably Google my name I there's not that many Erica Lofving spelled LOFVING in wine out there. My name is we Landin. So half of my articles are in Swedish. But you can you could probably find out online and feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn if you want to have a dialogue about anything.   Craig Macmillan  27:58  Fantastic. Wonderful. Our guest today has been Erica laughing. She's Chief Sustainability Officer with Vintage Wine Estates. Thank you for being the guest today. It's been a really fascinating conversation. And I look forward to talk to you again. Let's meet you in person at some point.   Erica Landin-Lofving  28:11  Thanks for having a good podcast. I always enjoy listening to the people. You're interviewing so much knowledge out in the wine industry.   Craig Macmillan  28:18  There really is. There's just a lot of richness and that's one thing that I love about doing this is meeting people like yourself and hearing perspectives and information I never otherwise would have gotten.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

I had the opportunity to meet with Brandon at one of his homes in Wilmington and ever since then he has been open with me (everyone) about his work and he agreed to do a quick sit down for this interview. Find out more about his work at https://brandonnovak.com/   Summary Brandon's introduction. 0:00 What it's like to not have cell phones. 1:09 Skateboarding as a drug addiction. 4:56 Praying to god to end my addiction. 9:12 Being accountable for your actions. 14:14 How to get out of your own way. 18:26 The Novak House and how it started. 23:22 The place where the misfits fit in. 27:39 Do you ever think about spiritual practice? 31:45 Dealing with death and loss. 36:25 Transcript by otter.ai   Intro Guy 0:00 Your journey has been an interesting one up to hear you've questioned so much more than those around you. You've even questioned yourself as to how you could have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general appear so limited in their thought process? Rest assured, you are not alone, the world is slowly waking up to what you already know inside yet can't quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the question you never even knew to ask, but knew the answers to questions about you this world, the people in it? Most importantly, how do I proceed? Now moving forward? We don't claim to have all the answers, but we sure do love living in the question. Time for another hit of spiritual Joe with your host, Brandon Handley. Let's get right into today's episode. Brandon Handley 0:42 Right now, when you come to mind, I did a series that was called like, sinners in the saints. Right? And I can't think of a better person, really that, you know, is that a sinner? Like missing the mark on life? Kind of right, you know, and that now you've turned it around and into something else. But let's share your journey. And for the people that don't do my kids don't even know what MTV is. First of all, right? Like, how mind boggling is that? Brandon Novak 1:09 Yeah, yeah, it's it's literally two different worlds, you know, their kids will, will grow up not even knowing or couldn't even imagine what it's like to not have a cell phone, right? Like we went for that. That juxtaposition from no cell phones, like nothing, you know, wireless internet, to literally anything in the blink of an eye at the touch of our fingertips. So it's this, there's quite a transition. That's crazy. But I think we're blessed to have experienced both of those worlds. Brandon Handley 1:47 Well, yeah, I love it. I love where we are, right, having had not had all this technology and stuff where we can just reach out to what we're doing right now to having it like, because we I would say we appreciate it that much more. Right? Brandon Novak 2:01 Absolutely. And you know, we have the ability to shut things off and slow things down, because we remember what it was like to not have these resources so readily available that the 1314 1618 year old kid today couldn't even fathom not living without. That's right. That's right. Well, Brandon Handley 2:24 let's uh, let's jump into it. Man, let's jump into like, I just kind of the addiction part, right, like jumping straight into there. Like, when did you kind of first get involved with any drugs? And when did you realize that you had a problem? Or when did it start taking over your life? Brandon Novak 2:48 I believe I was my story is my story. And we all have our own stories and our own journeys. And although the specifics may vary of each person's story, I think the endings remain the same. And my story is that my mother is not an addict or an alcoholic, my brother or sister who from our by a different man are not an addict or an alcoholic. But my father was an addict. His father was an addict. So I believed that I was genetically predisposed. I didn't really have much of a say so in the matter. And my story I don't think is much different than any others to be honest with you. I was groomed I was raised in the world of a fast life. My father never held a job a day in his life, he taught me one thing if and when I go to prison, how to conduct myself or the Hells Angels, he was a rather unsavory kind of fellow, he is no longer with us. He was diagnosed with a disease of addiction and and ran with it untreated for many years until, you know, I always talk to people when I say this, the issue will be addressed like the issue 100% will be addressed and either you choose to address the issue, you go to treatment, get your life back things that you have no idea that exists in life, or the issue addresses you and I get a phone call from your people saying thanks for trying to help him. But he didn't make it. And my father's issue was addressed, but not on his terms. And he's dead and he's no longer with us. But my mother was very successful. She was a nuclear physicist on the board of Mercy Hospital. My brother's an attorney in the White House practices, benefits. You know, so that's where I believe my, you know, I was groomed I was raised for that world. My father and his biker buddies would come to the house and grow a lot of herbs, smoke, a lot of drugs, sell a lot of drugs, fast play fast women. You know, I kind of absorb that coming up Brandon Handley 4:59 with Yeah, well, I mean, you're a product of your environment. Right? All right. It's really hard to escape that. Being a father and just seeing how much of an impact what I do rubs off on my children. It's like it's mind blowing just the small things that you don't think that their pickup they're picking up every detail all of it. And so, yeah, being being caught up in that and seeing that as you're growing up. That's that's pretty, pretty insane. Do you think? Like, you know, parlaying some of that nuclear physicist some of that success? Like was that like, your skateboarding success? Do you think? Like, Brandon Novak 5:38 Well, I think, you know, thank God for skateboarding, skateboarding raised me and skateboarding made me who I am today, all year in all areas of my life, including recovery? I have because I know then that I know now is that skateboarding weeds out the quitters? Or is that really the kind of guys that will, will go dry, try a trick. And if they don't make it, just say, I didn't really want it anyways. Right? Like, I will try a trick for for hours for days for weeks for months, occasionally years if need be until that one, you know, stroke of, of ingenious alignment, and everything makes sense. And I make the trek and that instant gratification. I'm on to the next. For sure. For sure. And that's where my recovery came from. You know, I refuse to accept failure, no is not an option. And so I was just I believe we all have these God given talents. You the best ping pong player in the world, but God might not see fit to put a paddle in your hand. I was blessed with the ability to have a skateboard, put my hand at the age of seven. And then that boards has my hand. I knew I was going to be a professional skateboarder. Alright, that's awesome. Brandon Handley 6:53 Yeah. That's awesome. I'm still trying to figure out how to get a kickflip to land Brandon. After all these years actually, my son wanted to pick up skateboard. And so we went out and got a board and we went out to the local park. So love that story. You're right, like your you'll never quit that. You know, trying to get that trick and then just keep going for it. And you never quit trying to get sober. Right? Like 13 tries. Brandon Novak 7:21 Yeah, right away many more tries, but 13 attempts at checking myself until facility. But I remember, like, during the era of filming, Viva la bam, right? Like we'd be filming all day. And after we were wrapped the cast and the crew would go to the bar in town and pour I'd go meet them at the pub, I would go to an AAA meeting. And I would end up meeting them at the bar to get fucking annihilated by the band was like, What is wrong with you, you go to these meetings and then you come get loaded with us. Like it makes no sense. But to me, it made a lot of sense because I knew that one day it was going to end one of two ways. Either I was gonna get sober, or I was gonna die in the process of trying. But I was never the kind of guy that that accepted the the outcome to be a forever thing of my addiction that I like, fuck that. Brandon Handley 8:17 What do you mean by that? Like, Brandon Novak 8:19 like, I never was the guy that was like, I'm gonna die with a needle in my arm I inactive addiction. Just leave me be this. All that I want. Brandon Handley 8:28 Yeah, yeah. You always see yourself getting beyond it or getting, that wasn't going to be your story. Brandon Novak 8:36 I didn't know what my story was going to be. I will my story was going to end one of two ways. Either I got sober or I died in the process of trying. Right? Brandon Handley 8:46 And, you know, your journey wasn't like you know, just kind of a backyard addiction. Like I mean, you are you breaking the houses stealing stuff getting caught. I was listening to a podcast earlier about like, people literally putting hits out on you. Right. It's been pretty crazy. What was like, share a story or two about the, you know, your addicted life. Something that gives a glimpse into the seediness of it. Brandon Novak 9:17 Yeah, well, my mother, you know, in the beginning of my alcoholism, she used to pray to god please God, don't let tonight be that night that I received that call that my son has sir came to his addiction and he's no longer with us. She used to pray not to get that call to the end of my addiction praying to God, please let tonight be the night that I find Steve that call just so I can know he's safe once and for all. You know that's kind of depravity in the depth that my addiction took me to my mother who is my number one supporter and would do anything for me the job was to die went from praying to please never receive a call that I had died to at the end. Praying to God pleased Let me get this call already, you know that that I think sums it up in itself man, like, that's the nature of my disease. The progression is fast. It's rapid. And it's very drastic. Brandon Handley 10:15 Would you say like, was that the end her misery or yours? Brandon Novak 10:19 Fuck both. Yeah, as in, you know, after, you know, 22 years of active addiction 13 inpatient treatment centers, lost count of our patients in detox, as my mother had already bought me a plot. People were taking life insurance policies out on me, okay, you have to be in a life support for seven days, at the same hospital on mother's a nuclear physicist at, she sold three homes to pay for two different treatment centers. I was kind of that guy that was deemed unhelpful and uncaring incapable of ever getting sober. Right. Right. So I'm sure both my misery and hers. Brandon Handley 10:54 Oh, no doubt, no doubt, you know, I was able to join you with your sober house and how to say hello to her for a quick moment. And she just mentioned that right now. She's just so happy that you're able to be around for the holidays, right? That you're actually a welcome guest for the holidays. And I thought that that was a pretty cool thing to hear. Brandon Novak 11:19 Give me one second my my iPad was about to charge and Ubers. Well, yeah, that's the end as the funny thing about sobriety is that like, and I tell all the guys that live in Novak's house, and anyone else does early in sobriety for that matter. Be careful what you ask for, cuz sometimes you just might get it. For sure. And now I'm a sober guy, and I'm Coming up on eight years, and that I have a lot of responsibilities. And a lot of people depend and rely on me and, and, and some of those people are my family members. So my mother, God bless her soul is my favorite person in this world. She probably calls me 10 times a day. Here, and, you know, that's, it's a blessing. And sometimes I can perceive it to be a curse. Or sir, but that's, that's all I ever wanted, in the beginning was like to just feel humanized and normalized again. Like a member of society, not an outcast, not a not, you know, not something or someone to be discarded because I had a, I had a deeper seated issue. Because before for a lot of years, when people saw me they would like cross the street, and that they didn't see me or walk the other way, rightfully so. Or if, because if you told me you love me, then I had you. If you told me, you love me, then I equated that to $10. So people had to love me from a distance. So now it's, it's it's really a beautiful thing to be part of my family's life. You know, I wasn't for a long time. And nothing to do with them. It was all me. Right? And I had even when I was around physically, mentally, I had been checked out for so many years. So, you know, it's it's nice, man. It's, I could go on for hours. But Brandon Handley 13:35 yeah, no doubt. Right. Well, let's, let's hop into the one part that I think is a little key to the Novak house and you doing what you're doing right now, let's just tell a quick story of the 13th check in, right, I guess we'll call it when you when you, you know, you go in pocket tripped out, you tell the story. Brandon Novak 13:57 Oh, well, you know, I may 25 2015, I found myself in a position where for the first time in my life, the pain had become so unbearable that I was willing to do anything in order to finally get myself out of the position I had created for myself, right. So all of a sudden I started becoming accountable for my actions, and realizing that my very best thing in place me here, and that I am the common denominator in my problems. And if I get the fuck out of my way, everything was i i And I can no longer deny the severity of my disease, the depravity that it takes me to and every attempt at every one of those 13 facilities prior to or 12 prior to they didn't tell me anything different than the other one missed out on, you know, like 13 was no different than 1211 10 98765432. The only difference was The pain had become so great that I was willing to finally become open minded just long enough to ask for help, and and more importantly, be able to follow through with the suggestions that people like yourself and others gave me and you know. So my thoughts are always ingrained in me and I'm very, I'm not the one people call for sympathy or a lighter, softer way. Because my sponsor always told me you never get between an alcoholic and their bottom. And I don't. And I will not, I believe there has to be repercussions from our actions. By the repercussions from my actions became great enough that again, I was willing to do anything that was suggested I went to that facility number 13. And, and literally, as a sponge absorbed anything that anyone told me to do, you know, I was tired, I was just hired, I was tired, I was bored. All these seeds had been planted unbeknownst to me it each one of those attempts at each facility and, and facility number 13. It's like the skies parted and I walked across the sea and everything just made sense from all previous attempts. You know, not to say things won't change. But to this point today, coming up on a year sober, my sobriety has been fairly simple. Because I've stuck to the basics, they told me the basics, you never have to go back to the basics. Yes, I've had heart aches, I've had deaths, I've had troubled times. But knowing where I came from, and the pain that I felt as a direct result of active addiction, like there's, to me, the allure and the illusion of a drink or a drug being a great time has wore off so fucking long ago. And I adhere to, to the suggestions that my mentors and my sponsors and, and the 12 steps and Alcoholics Anonymous have given to me, you know, and I can honestly say today right now, it is it is physically impossible for me to have a drink. Now, Brandon Handley 17:22 somebody put a drink in front of you just couldn't do it. Brandon Novak 17:24 Oh, it's impossible for me to even put up a ball of heroin in my hand right now. And my very first thought would be like, I need to flush this before my cats get to it. Because I've had that psychic change. Yeah, let's talk about that. Right? Like the definition of a spiritual experience is simply a psychic change. Meaning I've read no back today no longer think how I thought walking into treatment center number 13. Eight years almost. You're able to see things differently. Now. I'm a completely different man. I'm rewired. Yeah, and that but that's because you know I'm not people might listen to this and be like oh that egotistical Fuck no, I have a very very very healthy respect for my disease is I'm well armed with the facts I finally understand the opponent that I'm up against. And and most importantly, I suffer with a disease called alcoholism. Not alcohol wasn't meeting so well yesterday sobriety? Sure. Brandon Handley 18:27 I love that. I love that. Um, so you know, you go in to 13th Place your hot mess. You finally get flipped around. I think what's kind of funny about your story too. You didn't share it here but like I've listened to listen to it plenty of times so like where you go in and they tell you you gotta get a job even though you've got like money coming in right in one way or another. You've got to go you're bussing tables waiting tables here you are Brandon Novak guys got, you know, celebrity. He's got endorsements and all that all this good stick on for him. And you're in there bussing tables and waiting, waiting on tables to make your money. pay your own way out of your pocket. And this was the path that kind of opened up for you. And since you found a way that worked for you, you decided to find a way to share almost that exact same path with others sued Novak house right? Absolutely. Brandon Novak 19:23 You know, it's funny. Yeah, totally. But the funny thing is, is I didn't understand any of the any of the journey that I was on, I never realized along that journey that I was discovering these paths that were on lead to a much broader fucking scope or a grand scheme, you know, or big picture. I simply was just beaten so bad that I got out of my way follow suggestions of people that actually knew what they were talking about. And I always say this thing works when I don't work it right as long as I stay out of it mentally sure your suggestions fit physically, you know, if you continue to bring the body, the mind will follow. Right? If I found myself in a position where the pain was so great that I was just willing to do anything. It's physically it defies logic that I can use that very same brain that thought me into that terrible place to then think me out of it. If I could have done that I wouldn't be in a fucking 12 Step Program wouldn't have ended up in AAA, that's not my lifelong dream or goal, believe it or not. But so I'm a firm believer now because again, I was beaten so bad, I knew that my way no longer worked. I got out of my way, had some great mentors followed their suggestions. They said, Go, I said, Sure. They said, when I said what time, you know. And I just brought the body I brought the body, I brought the body and one day, the mind just followed Brandon Handley 20:51 some of that, would you? Was there ever, like a light clicking on for you a moment that like, I don't know, kind of like when you're first riding a bike, or like, oh, look, I'm doing it. Brandon Novak 21:00 Yeah, like put, but everything I've learned in my life is all in retrospect, my life is it forward and learn backwards. So the very first moment that that took place, when I was in my treatment center for my 90 days, and I had in 90 days, I had made it to my eight step, and not one step made any difference, or any more or less sense than the last one to two, two to three, three to four, four to five, five to six, six to 778. Nothing, I felt nothing, I had no clue what was going on. But I just again, follow suggestions, bringing the body mind will follow. Right. All of a sudden, I have my parole officer who promised to violate me if I lied to him, then as the truth and I lied again, because he just told me violate me while I'm in treatment, I knew things are different. And I, he asked for some evidence about this lie that I had presented. And, and it was impossible to gather evidence about this lie. And I call my sponsor, he said, Well, you've you've worked, you've experienced the third step, right? And I said, yeah, it was the first step for people that don't know, came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us turn our will and our life over to the care of God as we understand it. And, and I said, Yeah, and he goes, Well, here you go, God is everything or is nothing. And he said, Look at it this way. Let's say he does violate you. That means that you're simply meant to take the message inside the walls to someone who can't get out to hear from you directly. For some reason, I just believed him and I got on the phone I called and I let it was, it was on a Friday at like 3:30pm and I left a message on his voicemail admitting that I had lied. And that that was not true. What I told him I had to wait until Tuesday for him to call me back. I meant like 86 days sober, right by and usually would be racing. Sure, I'm going to get violated. I'm going back to prison. After I left that message, I went back down to my my room, and I fell asleep and I slept like a baby. It was a craziest thing ever. And it was right there that I accepted my fate. And, and in telling the truth there. It was like, one through eight hit me like a ton of bricks, like a blink of an eye. It all made sense. It was crazy. And I didn't get violated. School led me you know, like, he promised me that he violate me. And he was a guy that was very serious about that. Brandon Handley 23:34 I've yet to meet a parole officer that's not serious about their job. Brandon Novak 23:38 Well, my other ones, he was my probation officer Michelle ward. God bless her soul, Chester County. She was the one that like, saved my life. nearly enough when she should have violated me by every sense of the word. Unknown Speaker 23:52 Yeah. Brandon Novak 23:54 What happened there? I went in there and she was supposed to violate me. She was. She said, I don't know why I'm not going to violate you. But I'm going to give you one more chance and she sent me back to the rehab that actually works. She called and got them on the phone. Brandon Handley 24:10 Okay. Okay. That's crazy. So, you're taking you're taking this right. And, again, I'm not a stepper Brandon. And this is this. This program isn't about, you know, spiritual dopes kind of its own thing, but it follows. Oddly enough, the 12 step pattern, right, where you get to the 12 step and the 12 step is what for the people that don't know Brandon. Brandon Novak 24:39 Oh, fuck, you make me Brandon Handley 24:42 look there's another there's gonna be a test. Brandon Novak 24:45 He carries a message to addict or alcoholic who still suffers. Brandon Handley 24:48 Right, but you carry the message forward, right? Yeah, yeah. So that's what you're doing right with this with the Novak house. Let's talk about, you know, so let's talk about the Nova Cows, what it is that you're doing, how long it's been an action and what's going on there? Brandon Novak 25:04 Well, I so as I completed that 90 day treatment center, from there, I went to a sober living house, where I live for one year. And the reason why I went there because my sponsor at the time who had 11 years suggested that I go, because he did, and still stayed sober. Right. I wasn't trying to reinvent the wheel here, I knew that my way no longer works in my best thinking place me here, I was getting out of my way. Bringing the body just bringing the body mind has no idea but the body's showing up. And I found a suggestion. Oddly enough, I too, am Coming up on eight years. So like weird, not really. But while I was in that house, me and my best friend George, who is also still sober to this day, we had literally some of the best times of our life in this house. And I've had some amazing times in my life, and I've done really rad shit. I kidding you. I think my favorite Christmas ever was in that house. And we understood the importance and the effect that it had on us. And we always talked and we said that one day when we were in a position that we were financially capable, we were going to recreate that very same house. And also you people from the sober community kept telling me in order for me to keep what I have, I have to give it away. So five years into my journey and his Well, we decided we were going to replicate that Sober Living house. And we did we opened up our very first Novak's house in Wilmington, Delaware with 10 beds, and unfortunately, there was quite a need for those services. And I wish there wasn't in my houses didn't exist, but there are and they do and and we started with one house with 10 beds and today we have four houses with 40 beds. And I run around the nation like an insane maniac. Raising funds charitable donations to provide scholarships for any man seeking a sober living home. What I've found out that my why one of my why's today is I refuse to let funds be a deterrent as to why someone can't find a safe, adequate home to continue their journey and upon completion of a treatment center. Brandon Handley 27:38 I think that's awesome. Right? I think when you give your speech you're taking like at your event you took the this is the place where the misfits fit in right you're taking the people and Brandon Novak 27:53 we take the bottom of the barrel right like our place is not the place that like you come because you want just a weekend getaway now there are beautiful homes, they're amazing, but they're the people that have burned the resources and and kind of the discard it, you know, as I once was for sure. Brandon Handley 28:15 What was it? You know about that house? Can you can you pinpoint anything about that place that you guys wanted to replicate? Just the process? Brandon Novak 28:25 It was the process did you know right that there's a million treatment centers out there there's a million sober houses out there. I'm a firm believer the perfect treatment center or the perfect sober house that you guys sober it is the perfect treatment center is the one that you got sober in, right whichever one that is. I know that what we are intent on doing is creating an environment and to to make it a home not a house and we pride and attention into the homes that we create. Because we want the individuals that reside in them to take pride in their home and where they reside a little bit more than they might find a drink or a drug appealing kind of hoping that the ends justify the means Brandon Handley 29:15 for sure. I was talking who's your carpenter um if you want give him a shout out we Yeah, Brandon Novak 29:21 well we have where I was. Brandon Handley 29:23 So here's the dread hair guy that I met there he did yeah Brandon Novak 29:31 he's the painter Brandon Handley 29:32 is so so so he said you know and i Your sober house is the only one I've ever stopped and right. He said though that your houses are like no. So nice. Yeah, compared to some other places. Do you think that that gives these guys like kind of a feeling of hope as well being like, wow, I can have something like this for my life if I just keep my shit together. Brandon Novak 29:56 That's our hopes. Right? Like there's a lot of different little layers to it. But that's one of them. And it absolutely is it you know that paired with accountability paired with structure? Paired with cleanliness, like it all plays a part. Sure. Kind of like a, you know, one strand isn't more or less important than the other. Brandon Handley 30:18 That's right. That's right. The and one of the things I think we talked in brief at your event, but you'd mentioned like that there is structure, but it's not overly structured. So that gives them enough freedom and space to, I think, be themselves and do what they've got to do without feeling like they're on lockdown. Brandon Novak 30:37 Yeah, because they're not and my house is, aren't that they're not one of which, where, you know, you lose your freedom. Quite the contrary, actually. But the good thing is we do a really good process with assessments. And by beings so blessed with that. We don't run into people coming there and getting high smoke so much as we run into people coming there and don't want to follow all the rules. So we really let people know. Like, if you're not serious about staying sober, this isn't the house for you. You can't get lost in it. There's cheaper houses you can go with with less rules, right? Like, we'll give you an address. So it's Brandon Handley 31:21 a no, has anybody ever take you up on that? Brandon? Does anybody be like, You know what, thanks for that. And they roll down the street? Brandon Novak 31:27 Maybe they won't tell us? You know what I mean? Do maybe they don't? Everyone's process is their process, and we're all entitled to our process. If somebody would have robbed me of my process along my way, I wouldn't be here today. So like, I'm a big fan of that. Brandon Handley 31:45 Do you ever this crosses my mind, given everything that I've consumed to put in my body over the years, which is, I'm gonna guess less than you. But you know, I'll be like, I got to a point where, like, you know, what, I put so much shit in my bio does so many things that, like, if I'm still alive, right now, there's gotta be a reason for and like, leaning into that, right? Like, and just being like, discover the purpose. Like, like, I get down to your place and, and do the breath work with the guys that feel like that's a piece of something I'm able to do. Does that ever occur to you? Or are you just driving with the headlights? Oh, Brandon Novak 32:23 no. Yeah, I I mean, in the first couple years. I'm not religious, but I'm very spiritual. And I didn't really think much about it. The first couple years of my sobriety, I just continued to bring the body or the body. And then around two and a half years, it totally transitioned to, to completely spiritual and everything is, is of a much bigger, broader plan that I'm clearly a grain of sand in. And I play no part of. So it's like, I'm, I don't I don't I don't take credit for any of this. None of this is by my doing. I'm simply just playing the part that I was assigned today. And now everything is spiritual, you know, like everything, maybe too much. So sometimes, I just kind of give up to the unit. Brandon Handley 33:26 Well, yeah, so tell me a little bit about that. I love that right? Obviously so spiritual dope came from you know, just recognizing like this connection with source and like having that high from like, whatever you call that right connection to God source universe. What's that story look like for you? Now? I hear you talk a lot about synchronicities. I think there was a I caught like a man I caught like an Instagram review tote and some crystals around. You know, what's that look like? You know, you've got this work that you're doing right now, I'm sure that that's part of your spirituality. But what does your own spiritual practice look like? Well, you Brandon Novak 34:03 know, I, every day I start my day on my knees, and every day I end my day on my knees, and I know that without a constant contact and have a very healthy connection with my higher power, none of this is possible. None of this and I never get that confused or think that I, I created this. I'm very big with that. I just try to remain as useful as I can to my God's children, which are my brothers and sisters. And you know, the more I do for others, the better my life is. Brandon Handley 34:44 Do you feel like the more that you're able to do for others, the more that kind of flows through you? Brandon Novak 34:50 Well, with what flows Brandon Handley 34:52 like, you know, just like I would say, You know what, I'm here what I feel like you're saying is like you're an instrument of God, right and like divine source flows. through you and you're able to, you know, connect with others. I don't really think Brandon Novak 35:05 of it like that. I don't think what flows through me. I just think like, uh, you know, because again, I am too smart for my own fucking good. Now I'll, I'll twist this narrative to make me think that I've done this. So I sure I tried out the, you know, I just, I just kind of tricky slope, right? Yeah, I just kind of it works when I don't work it. You know, it's crazy. But I don't think much about a lot of the stuff that I do. Just because I'm so busy with so many projects that I don't really have time to sit back and connect the dots of like, Oh, I did this for this person. And this person achieved this. And now they're here with them. And the fact you know, I don't even I just get so caught up in the day to day. Yeah, this is probably for the best, Brandon Handley 35:53 sir, sir. So he's just staying out of your own way. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Brandon Novak 36:00 That's what I've learned is, the longer I stay sober, the less that I know, because I see how amazing my spirituality is, and how powerful it is. So like, I've never be so arrogant. Personally, this is just me, I would never be so arrogant to think that I understand what my God's will is. That's, that's completely insane. Because it's so fucking big and vast. And, Brandon Handley 36:25 but no, I'm with you. Right. Like, if I think I know what to do, and I can do it all by myself. And your point, like I wouldn't be in this situation I'm in now. Right? Oh, one of the things that I was actually touched by, and it was a bit of a challenge, and I'm curious to hear how you deal with it. You're one of your residents. He was probably one of the first guys I connected with coming down to the Novak house. Tim Wright recently passed, and you know, his passing impacted me in a way that most don't, you know, it's all over on TV, and I haven't been close to somebody pass on for for quite some time. How does that impact you? Like, what do you you know, Brandon Novak 37:11 I wish I could say it impact me more, but I've kind of become numb to it. Brandon Handley 37:17 Well, I mean, you know, is that because it's you're surrounded by and you're only doing what you can do you No, no, let go and let God type of thing or, Brandon Novak 37:28 well, I believe that everyone has a message to carry, right, I believe maybe the I believe, I believe my God is everything I don't believe God is, is what I think he should or shouldn't be. I believe God is everything. And I might get scolded for this. But I believe God is heroin, I believe God is crack, I believe God fucking out of all because without those substances, it would not have brought me to the child of God that I am today. But that's just me not imposing my will on anything or anyone else. But I believe that, unfortunately, some have to die for others to live. Brandon Handley 38:09 I get it right. That's the example. And you've got a bunch of people that are close to that. And they see what can happen if they think that they can go back Brandon Novak 38:19 and it didn't need it doesn't have to be that way. Brandon Handley 38:24 But yeah, so what if I'm in the Novak house, what are some of the things I got to do? What's some of the structure Brandon Novak 38:34 so you have to have a job, you have to have a sponsor, you have to be working the steps you have to go to five meetings a week you have to make curfews, you have to pass random your analysis you have to go continue and successfully complete IOP and then there's a gradual step down pace to that will tie up intensive outpatient so it's just a continuum of your aftercare of whatever program you came to Brandon Handley 39:01 from. Got it. Got it. What's the long term vision or where do you see where do you see this going for for you the the Novak house? Brandon Novak 39:12 When will this air? Brandon Handley 39:14 Probably not to like next year? Brandon Novak 39:16 Okay, so Brandon Handley 39:18 2020 23 Brandon Novak 39:20 Well, by the time that you beautiful ladies and gentlemen are watching this, you'll see that were my goals and dreams had taken me to because the day that we aired this was Thursday, November 17 2022, or that we filmed this. I'm opening a rehab, I'm opening a center that treatment center opened by the time your viewers see this. Wow. And it's going to be called redemption Addiction Treatment Center in Wilmington, Delaware. Brandon Handley 39:52 Oh, wow. Congratulations, man. That's my end game that at least I think who knows. Okay. That's your next step in the process. Right. Brandon Novak 40:00 So I always wanted my end game to be. And through the grace of God, it's happening. And then we're hoping to projected opening is mid January no later than February. Brandon Handley 40:15 Awesome, man. Congratulations. Is that in association with? I know you've done a lot of work with a companion and some others is that in association with them or is this on your own? Brandon Novak 40:25 This is all my own This is my own adventure. Wow okay yeah parted ways with Banyan amazing program. But I think simultaneously we just outgrew each other. And I didn't get sober to just get stagnant, I believe sobriety and tells us the life of choices and options. And I Why would I not take advantage of it? Brandon Handley 40:51 Makes sense? What do you how do you feel like yours will be different from any others? Or how will be the same as others curious on how that's Brandon Novak 40:59 gonna? Same as my house is right? Like the personal connection. And honestly, bread and Novak will not be at the other 10,000 50,000 treatment centers that exist out there. That will be at redemption, where I'll be working with clients day in and day out. You know, Brandon Handley 41:23 focus energy there. Yeah, that's awesome. You're gonna be a skatepark? They said no. Brandon Novak 41:34 To which I will absolutely take the clients to 100% but I don't think so. Got it. Brandon Handley 41:40 Got it. Got it. Well, Brandon, Look, man, I just wanted to have you on share your story centers in the saints, man, I really think that it's important. One of the things that you've definitely said before is like, you know, who you were isn't who you have to be going forward and what the work that you're doing now illustrates that, right? He, the guy that was robbing everybody, you know, years ago, is now out here, you know, basically getting money to give to other people to so they can achieve sobriety and live a decent life. Brandon Novak 42:14 I'm grateful man. And I'd like to end this kind of alluding to the point you just made if anyone out there needs help getting into treatment, they can call me directly, personally, at 610-314-6747 Thanks, Brian. Love you, brother. Thanks so much. Intro Guy 42:35 And I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the spiritual dove podcast. Stay connected with us directly through spiritual dove Dotco. You can also join the discussion on Facebook, spiritual dough, and Instagram at spiritual underscore Joe. If you would like to speak with us, send us an email through Brandon at spiritual dove.co And as always, thank you for cultivating your mindset and creating a better reality. This includes the most thought provoking part of your day. Don't forget to like and subscribe to stay fully up to date. Until next time, be kind to yourself and trust your intuition. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Amid extreme weather events, many grape growers ask themselves what they can do to adapt their vineyard for climate change. Chris Chen, Integrated Vineyard Systems Advisor in Sonoma, Mendocino, and Lake Counties at the University of California Cooperative Extension is exploring solutions to this question. Mediterranean climates like California, with hot and dry summers and cold wet winters, are particularly sensitive. Researchers expect temperature maximums will be higher and the minims will be lower in years to come. Chris explains a few tactics growers can use to continue farming successfully amid climate changes including rootstocks, canopy management, new scions, and most importantly trialing. References: REGISTER: 3/10/23 Canopy Management: Trellising, Sunburn, & Mechanization Tailgate Meeting | Paso Robles, CA 67: Impacts of Climate Change on Wine Production A New World of Wine: How the Viticultural Map is Changing | Greg Jones | International Masters of Wine Symposium (Video) Andy Walker, Emeritus Louise Rossi Endowed Chair in Viticulture and Enology Chen Lab Chris Chen Twitter Climate, Grapes, and Wine | Greg Jones | TEDx Roseburg (Video) Out of Sync: Vine Responses to Changing Conditions SIP Certified UCCE North Coast Viticulture UCCE Sonoma County Viticulture UCCE Viticulture Newsletters Online - North Coast Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  My guest today is Chris Chen. He's integrated vineyard systems advisor for Sonoma Mendocino and Lake counties with the University of California Cooperative Extension. And I think we're gonna have a very interesting conversation today, Chris has done some pretty interesting work and some pretty interesting ideas. So welcome to the podcast, Chris.   Chris Chen  0:14  Thanks, Craig. Appreciate it. Looking forward to it.   Craig Macmillan  0:16  Doing a little bit of background on you. Would you say that there's a particular thread or what the thread is that runs through your research and extension work? Because it seems like there is one to me.   Chris Chen  0:25  A lot of my work is focused on adaptation to climate change and vineyards. And it's something that goes back to when I was in grad school, you know, the, the whole climate change thing became really big and something to focus on when I entered grad school. And as I went through grad school, it became what I did. The thread here is kind of how do we adapt viticulture, to changing climates? How do we predict what a climate today is going to be in 510 years, the thread is to see how can we adapt to these changing conditions, and still keep viticulture, thriving and successful.   Craig Macmillan  0:57  What is the prediction right now, in terms of let's start with California, but we can talk about the West Coast, we can also talk about New York, and we can talk about Europe. But you work in California, what is the current picture in terms of long term climate change that might affect grapes?   Unknown Speaker  1:15  It's not really easy to say this will happen that will happen. But what we expect to see in California, it's a Mediterranean climate right now, these are very sensitive climate types, typically classified as regions with really hot, dry summers, cold, wet winters, right. And they're kind of fringe ecosystems, fringe climates. So they're on the border of, of an inland climate in a coastal climate, that means they're the most sensitive to climate change. So what we're expecting to see in California, and what a lot of researchers, climate researchers are planning on is, you know, increased temperatures, the maximums are going to be higher, the minimums are going to be lower, and those swings are going to be more drastic in between. So the diurnal temperature shift is going to be huge. You know, that is something that everyone kind of expects with climate change. It gets hotter, it gets colder, the extremes are more extreme, but what we're not really sure about is how precipitation is going to change. And in California, rainfall is such a huge thing. It's variable year to year, we have droughts for three years at a time and then one relief year, what we're really confused about is how is the rain pattern gonna change where we are today are we going to get the same rainfall and we're going to be able to support viticulture here anymore?   Craig Macmillan  2:33  Now that brings up an interesting question. I'm going to bring up Andy Walker here, Dr. Andy Walker, the very famous plant breeder and I attended a seminar that he did on rootstocks, which he's done a ton of work and many rootstocks are out as a result of his lab. And he started off the whole thing by saying, you can dry farm winegrapes anywhere in the world. And the room just went silent, like I don't think anybody was breathing. And then he says, Now you might get two clusters, providing but the plant itself is going to do what it does. It's an amazing plant. It's incredible. And then he went on and talked about being in the Andes and seeing things in different parts of the world. And I found that really inspiring because when we talk about what we're doing right now, water, obviously is probably the biggest knob. If you have all these knobs, you can twist fertilizer, whatever water is probably the biggest one. Yeah, California, you have done some work with a number of people, but also with Kaan Kutural who I love on drought tolerance, drought resistance, I would say and what kinds of things? Are you finding out what you mean? Where is it kind of leading you? Where is it? What's kind of the thought process?   Chris Chen  3:38  Andy, he was also my doctoral advisor. So I've heard his Spiel once or twice about dry farming. You know, you can do that can grow grapes in most almost all places without water there. There are grapes on islands that are irrigated with fog drip, so it's possible, but he's also right in saying that you're not going to get the yields that make you profitable. So that's concerning. And what we want to avoid, because we still need a certain tonnes per acre to reach profit margin that matters in terms of what can we do and how we're going for drought adaptation. There's the old approach of using rootstocks. And it's a very useful approach, right, these rootstocks from Andy Walker's perspective, and if you're looking at it from his lens, they have different rooting patterns. They have different water demands, and that translates to what we're growing on top. Whether it's Cab, Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, whatever you want to grow on top of it, it's going to be impacted by what it's grafted to that is actually a very reasonable strategy to address drought that has its limits, you know, you still need water to grow grapes. Almost all grape vines in the wild, are only found near perennial water sources. So it's not like we can get rid of water altogether. We can't just leave them alone and expect to have any crop on them. But there's other things we can do. One of the huge management strategies that we can look at is canopy management. So canopy management in vineyards have really impacts how much water transpires and how much water evaporates from the surface of the soil. With a bigger canopy, you get less evaporation. But you also get more transpiration because there's more leaves, right. And vice versa. If you have a small canopy, you have the opposite problem that actually really impacts your fruit, your crop load, you know the quality of your fruit, the characteristics of the berries. So it's not something that everybody's going to play around with, because they want us to in the end, they want a certain kind of fruit with certain characteristics for their winery. But canopy management is a huge one as well, as rootstocks, there's also the interest in precision agriculture. So there is the spoon feeding approach where instead of irrigating large quantities at once, we can irrigate small portions at a time.   Craig Macmillan  5:43  Irrigate strategicly. I mean, I've seen some pretty interesting work from the past where it was like a 10, Vine irrigation block. And you were able to control this and that little bit in that little bit. And you could use NDVI to figure out where you want to do it. Interesting work. I'd never was convinced how practical that might be for most growers, especially if you're retrofitting their orchards.   Chris Chen  6:05  In Australia that irrigate on a tree to tree basis. So it's very doable. You know, the question is, how much water would you actually save doing that? And how much energy are you using to pump that every time?   Craig Macmillan  6:18  Exactly. Now, we're talking about rootstocks rootstock breeding back in the day, 100 years ago, or whenever it was all about phylloxera. And it was about salt. I know that Dr. Walker has done a lot of work on salt resistance. n=Nematode resistance is turned out to be a big one. If I remember that's the GRM series are specifically for nematode. Is that right?   Chris Chen  6:38  Correct. Yes. Those are anti Walker's.   Craig Macmillan  6:40  Crowning achievements. Brilliant stuff. You know, we're talking about genetic differences and rootstocks that have been bred for different conditions, including things like drought tolerance. What about what's on top, you make a point one of your articles that the landscape of wine growing is dominated by Cabernet Sauvignon and Chardonnay, which means we have a very limited genome, essentially, of what's above ground. And we've learned from other crops that might not be such a great idea. We're talking about maybe trying to rootstock our way out of some of this. Can we variety, some of our way out of this.   Chris Chen  7:11  So the short answer to that is yes. The long answer is a bit more complex. You know, overall, all of the scions we put on are all one species Vitus vinifera, there's a few others like Vitesse labrusca, which is Concorde. And there's a there's a couple others that we use, but the majority of what we consider winegrapes is Vitus vinifera. So the genetic differences in the scions are not huge. The real differences are in the phenotyping. Right, you look at a Cabernet Sauvignon vine. And you compare that to a Tempranillo or Zinfandel, you'll see that the latter, they actually have quite larger canopies, even though they're the same species. The weird thing is they're more heat tolerant. Part of that might be their transpiration and might be for several reasons, these small changes in how they look change how they interact with their environment. So the real concern in you know, changing the scions from place to place site to site is that some places actually have latched on to a variety or two. If you think about Napa Napa, you think Chardonnay and Cabernet Sauvignon, where I work in the north coast, it's Pinot Noir, a little bit of Chardonnay, some Sauvignon Blanc and Lake County, right? It's very possible to say, you know, if we have a one, one site that increases temperatures by, you know, temperature accumulation by 20%, in 10 years, it might behoove them to go from a cold climate grapes like Pinot Noir and switch over to something like Zinfandel. The problem is, well, the market that purchases their wine actually still keep buying their wines. If they go to Zinfandel, it would be a smart move. If you're thinking about, you know, the physiology of the plant of the difficulty of managing the vineyard, all the extra things you have to do if you want to stick with that cold climate grew up in a hot climate, not to say that people don't do that we do have Pinot Noir grown in San Joaquin Valley, for instance, just not as much as up here. So it's possible one of the problems is actually picking those varieties, picking the right varieties because just because it gets hotter here doesn't mean you know, Santa Rosa has the same climate as Bakersfield. There's differences in humidity and light incidents. There's differences in just cultural practices, what people do to manage the soils what they do for fertilizing. So overall, yeah, it's possible but there's other barriers besides just switching the plant.   Craig Macmillan  9:29  It sounds like some of those barriers are the ability to make accurate predictions about what might happen if I'm planting Zinfandel in an area where it's never really had Zinfandel. I don't know exactly what's gonna go on. But then also it sounds like acceptance of the marketplace is gonna play a big role. That's that's a different conversation. Unless you have a feeling about it. I think part of what goes on is we do have information from the marketplace. We do have research, but a lot of what goes on here is growers themselves as individuals are making decisions out what's gonna happen? Right? It's not necessarily that we're getting handed down this necessarily the trend, but like, I think this is where we're gonna go. When you talk to people about this kind of thing. What kind of response do you get from growers?   Chris Chen  10:10  Yeah, you know, it depends. There are growers that are all about trying new cultivars, and they usually inhabit kind of niche markets, a lot of these growers will grow varieties that are useful for blending. So if you need some more color, if you need some more acids, they'll grow these varieties that impart that to wines that otherwise wouldn't have them. And you know, there's only so much of a market for that. I think there's also growers on the other side where they say, Well, no, in order for us to make our ends meet, we have to stick with so and so variety, we have to stay with Pinot Noir because our entire consumer base wants it. And you know, there's trends in viticulture in California as a whole that have followed these, you know, this chain of events Muscats Muscats, used to be very popular along with making a rose out of Zinfandel. Riesling was another one, people planted a bunch of these things, and then the consumer market dropped out. And they were stuck with fines that take, you know, five years to hit any kind of good crop. And within those five years, it fell out of favor. So they're selling their grapes for pennies, compared to what they would have been if had they had them at the peak of the popularity, we can't change our varieties just based on popularity, and we can't keep them just based on popularity. But there are these constants right 40% of the grapes planted in California are Cabernet Sauvignon Chardonnay, which is not a bad thing. It just means that people want it.   Craig Macmillan  11:31  use the term asynchronous or asynchrony, and viticulture. What What do you mean when you refer to that?   Chris Chen  11:37  so that's a term that I thought would be very applicable to the situation. So vineyards as a whole run on a schedule, they run on timing, and part of that is their biological timing, right? So their biological timing is based off of heat accumulation. So the hotter it is for the longer the quicker we have budbreak, the quicker we have chute growth and fruit set, and so on. So that as the climates are changing, and we know we're going to see higher temperatures in some places, then we're seeing a shift in that timing. And a shift in that timing changes a lot of things, it changes how the plants interact with insects and pests and beneficial insects, because they're also changing their timing, we're seeing, you know, some insect pests are increasing their generations. So they instead of two generations a year, they'll have three in some really hot places, for instance. But also these these beneficial insects that control the pests are switching their timing of hatching and switching their timing of maturity. And we're seeing that more and more, and we're afraid we're gonna start seeing that in agriculture relatively soon. So what all of that together means is that when you look at a vineyard, the events that you would have had for the past 100 years are not happening at the same times as they would have been in the next 10 years than they did previously. And that's a challenge actually, for you know, management as well, because labor resources are, especially in agriculture are often you know, made more available during timeframes where they're needed. And if that timeframe changes, there's gonna be a year or two where that's a problem.   Craig Macmillan  13:09  If we don't change anything, let's say we don't change varieties, we don't change the root stocks or anything, I'll get vineyards that are 10 years old now and hopefully get another decade or two out of it, or I'm making decisions 20 years from now for a variety like Cabernet Sauvignon you're in and we will talk about Pinot Noir as well that I think that's an important one. But I want to start with Cab, in your experience, let's say things get warmer and colder. And then we don't know what's going to happen with weather. So let's just leave rainfall out of it for now. But just the swings in the higher the highs and lower lows, what impact do you think that's gonna have on wine quality or yield? How are these things going to change? Do you think as a viticulturalist?   Chris Chen  13:45  Especially wine grapes really need that big swing in temperature, so they need that diurnal shift that's really hot summer days and really cold summer nights. That really helps them develop their flavonol profiles, their tannins, their anthocyanins, anthocyanins more so about, light, you know, incidents light exposure, but that's beside the point. So it's actually kind of a good thing. The problem is when we hit these limits, right? So when we hit these limits of it's too hot. So now instead of accumulation of these compounds, what we're seeing is a degradation of them. So they're accumulating in the grapes faster throughout the year. So again, this is that asynchrony, right. So as you get closer toward the traditional historic harvest time, you think, okay, these grapes are still accumulating their tannins, or they're still accumulating their flavonols or their their anthocyanins are not degrading it. But what we're seeing is that increase in the growing degree days or heat accumulation is actually decreasing the amount of stable compounds in the grape that we want. So we're seeing especially with color, we're seeing a degradation in color. anthocyanins are degrading, much sooner and to higher degrees in these really hot summers, especially when We have these heat waves that we had last year. These heat waves are terrible for these things. But we don't know which varieties are going to be tolerant to this and can can withstand these changes in extremes. So the increases in high temperatures, the decreases in low temperatures, the low temperatures aren't really a problem unless we get freezing temperatures which we shouldn't in summer, but it's not impossible.   Craig Macmillan  15:23  Not impossible could happen. What about Pinot Noir, famously very sensitive, very narrow range that it likes. Right. I got you on the spot here.   Chris Chen  15:32  Yeah, I can't speak to that too much. Because all of the trials that I've done and I've seen have been with Cabernet Sauvignon, one of the most popular red varieties in the world, I can't say that it's more or less sensitive to these changes Pinot Noir. But based on its classification, as a region, one region two cold climate grape, it's likely to be more sensitive to these extreme highs in summer and degrade faster. We do know that Pinot Noir ripens sooner than Cabernet Sauvignon does, on average, you know, put them in the same spot and your Pinot is going to be done. I don't know spitballing number here two weeks before the Cabernet is so you harvest the two weeks ahead of time. That means if you're harvesting it at the same time as Cabernet, you're getting more degradation in those anthocyanin. So that would be the theory behind why Pinot Noir might be more affected by these high temperatures. But I don't have anything to cite for you at the moment.   Craig Macmillan  16:25  Sure, sure. But I think that your insight there is useful in that. Okay, maybe we don't know what's gonna happen. We can kind of guess at some things that might happen. But if we know kind of where things might end up, or how the vine might repond, I might change my winemaking, I might change my canopy management style, right? I knew a guy who was an old school farmer, and he refused to put in drip irrigation even in new vineyards. And I asked him about it. And he said salts, that's the way to go. That's it only way to do it. And I was like, well, that's 1974 It's not 1974 anymore. And he goes looks listen in the middle of a day, it's 105 I can turn on those sprinklers. And I can cool that canopy and I can avoid stress. I said we're gonna overwater, you're gonna do it, because you just gotta know what you're doing son, like just, I can put it out there. And I can manage this a more effective tool for me. I watched him over the years and saw what he did. He had it really dialed in. But he had a totally different approach to what tool he wanted to use to deal with whatever the environmental condition was. And I thought that was really interesting and very clever. Are there things that we can learn from other parts of the world? Because obviously, there's differences in climate different places to Australia, you know, very different interestes and very warm areas there, if I understand correctly, are we gaining knowledge, we gained some guidance from other parts of the world on this topic?   Chris Chen  17:42  If we're not we should be there's this popular topic that England United Kingdom can grow grapes now, and they can grow good grapes now. And that's new. That never used to be the case. And you know the story of I don't know if this is true. But the story of why Brut champagne or Brut sparkling wines called Brut is because the French made it for the English and they didn't like them. No, I mean, we do have things to learn. Yeah, we do have things to learn from other people, especially places that are really hot. South Africa, Australia, these, you know, these locations are, a lot of them are dealing with conditions that, you know, we see here as well, but they're dealing with it on a much larger scale. So we see, you know, really hot temperatures in the San Joaquin Valley, Sacramento Valley. But we grow grapes there. And we're good at it. You know, in Australia, that's a huge swath of land that's in those kinds of conditions. But then the one where it gets really sensitive is when we get to the coast when we get to colder climates, like where I work where I operate. So it's going to be, you know, the coastal regions that really are impacted more, because they don't have the infrastructure, they don't have the cultivars to really tolerate that heat. And what we need to do is look at places that are experiencing this change before we're experiencing it. And often these are Mediterranean climates, also, right, New Zealand, Australia, South America, Chile, and see what they're doing, see how they're adapting to it and what cultivars they're planting. You know, I'm not saying that all of Mendocino County should be planting Sheraz or Sahra. But you know, it might be good for some growers to try it out and see what's going on. I've been advocating for a lot of growers that, you know, if you're replanting, and vineyard, plant a few other cultivars somewhere and just see how they do, you know, it's not really great for if you're harvesting with the machine, because you end up knocking those into the same bin as all the other grapes. But if you could, you know, find an area where it's isolated and far enough away that you're not going to mix them up might be good to plant five, five to 10 vines of something else and see how it does because each each region is going to be different. Each region is going to have to have a different response because climate change is very regional.   Craig Macmillan  19:53  But the good news is that we are pretty clever. As an industry we've come up with all kinds of solutions to all kinds of problems over the years. without the folks like you have made that possible. We're running out of time. But I want to ask you one very simple and very short question. And that is based on everything that we've kind of talked about what one piece of advice or what one takeaway would you give a grape grower?   Chris Chen  20:16  I would say the most important thing is to do really good monitoring practices to really get out there and see how your vines are changing, and how your site is changing. You can you can try new cultivars, you can try, you know, different root stocks, you can try different canopy management practices. But if you don't keep track of how things are changing in response to that, then there's no point, right? There's a lot of really good tools out there. There's a lot of new things coming out that you can you can, you know, remotely sense and identify diseases, changes in stomatal conductance in different physiological measurements that are really important to developing a grapevine. Just look at these new monitoring solutions. Be wary of ones that may or may not work, you know, don't don't put all of your your eggs in one basket, that kind of thing. But get out there and monitor.   Craig Macmillan  21:06  I think that's great advice. And I think that applies to a lot of things. Where can people find out more about you?   Chris Chen  21:10  I have a website. If you go to Google, and you type in UC AND Chris Chen, it should bring up my bio, and there's a link to my lab page there, has a bunch of resources has a bunch of links and papers. And I think you know, especially if you're in the North Coast region and the counties I work in, you can just give me a call. You know, most people can just call me anyways, I work for University of California. So it's, you know, quasi public domain. Yeah, please feel free to reach out.   Craig Macmillan  21:38  Fantastic. So our guest today has been Chris Chen. He's an integrated vineyard systems advisor for Sonoma, Mendocino and Lake counties with the University of California Cooperative Extension. Thanks for being on the podcast. Chris. This is really fun.   Chris Chen  21:50  Thanks for having me. Craig. Enjoyed it.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai