Podcast appearances and mentions of dan cederholm

Elliot sits down with Dan Cederholm, who many will know for his pioneering web design work, his multiple books, and as the co-founder of Dribbble. These days, Dan's studio Simplebits is a type foundry, so Elliot and Dan talk learning new skills, career reinvention, the woes of social media, and moving from digital to analogue and back again — all with a healthy (or is that unhealthy?) dose of reminiscing about the good ol' days of the web.

Sim, é um tema velho, mas imortal. Há muito tempo tem sido muito comum que designers utilizarem plataformas como o Dribbble ou o Behance para demonstrarem suas habilidades em design, até mesmo como portfolio. Será que esse tipo de recurso nano acaba valorizando apenas uma parte do trabalho? E fazendo com que tanto leigos quanto novos designers se enganem quanto ao que realmente se entrega ou como se faz o trabalho de design? Projetos do dia-a-dia costumam esbarrar em problemas que os projetos do Dribbble quase nunca enfrentam. O que é o Dribbble? Dribbble é uma comunidade online para a exposição de conteúdo artístico. Funciona como uma plataforma de autopromoção e networking para design gráfico, web design, ilustração, fotografia, e outras áreas criativas. Foi fundada em 2009 por Dan Cederholm and Rich Thornett, tornando-se pública em 2010. Convidados: David Arty e Luan do Semiose Podcast https://www.instagram.com/uxluan/ https://www.instagram.com/chiefofdesign.br/ Fonte: https://brasil.uxdesign.cc/designer-de-dribbble-vs-designer-do-mundo-real-4c9559c395f7 Qual a sua opinião sobre isso? Esse é o Bom dia UX, um programa feito ao vivo no canal do youtube do Design Team, toda quarta-feira de manhã às 7 horas. * Acesse nosso site * http://www.designteam.com.br * Junte-se ao Telegram * https://bit.ly/3dOea2Y * Assine nosso podcast * https://anchor.fm/designteambr Rafael Burity Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelburity Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rafaelburity/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/rafaelburity Rodrigo Lemes Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rodrigolemes Twitter: https://twitter.com/rodrigolemes

Books for the brain It's book week here at the League and we're getting nerdy talking about some of the best type design books around at the moment, particularly some more recent releases we've enjoyed. Steph's joining us on the podcast to chat about books about making fonts (Dan Cederholm's Twenty Bits I Learnt About Making Fonts, OH no Type Co's Type School zine, and Sofie Beier's small but mighty Type Tricks), books about a very specific category of typography (Arcade Game Typography by Toshi Omigari), and an absolute beauty of a book that has a very typographic influence (Spike by Spike Lee, designed by Tré Seals). Olivia and Steph share everything they love about these books on the podcast, and if this piques your interest to add to your design library, you can find out more about these books, or buy your own copies with the links we've included in this week's newsletter. If you've grabbed any other recent type books that we've missed, hit us up on Twitter or Instagram, you'll find us @theleagueof on both platforms, to tell us all about them. Weekly Typographic Newsletter Links Find out more at http://podcast.theleagueofmoveabletype.com

In this special episode, Martina Flor switches places from being a host to being a guest. This is an episode from The Simple Bits Show, Dan Cederholm interviews the designer, lettering artist, author, and coach, Martina Flor. Lettering, making fonts, turning your freelancing into a growing business, teaching and coaching and more.

An interview with Nadine Chahine of I Love Typography Wow, what a weekend of learning with Dan Cederholm last week. Dan was so generous with his font design knowledge and we loved the snippets of wisdom he shared. We also loved seeing everyone's work produced across the two workshops and the blossoming enthusiasm for type design

How to describe a typeface Don't forget! This weekend we're joined by Dan Cederholm, one of the OG founders of Dribbble, who will be sharing his empowering, positive, and practical insights into making your first font. Even though he's a super experienced designer, he only made his first font in 2020, when a pesky pandemic gave him the gift of time and local inspiration. This week's articles and podcast conversation have a bit of a theme; in preparation for a special interview episode next week

Why is Victorian typography so spooky?! We're fresh off of a great workshop last weekend with our friends at Spline. Big thanks to the many, many people who showed up to learn more about 3D type; we can't wait to see what you create (make sure you tag us on Instagram and Twitter with what you learnt).

In this episode I spoke with Dan Cederholm. Founder of SimpleBits, co-founder of Dribbble, author, accidental entrepreneur and "cautious advencherer" and we talked about Dan's books, past and present, the web today, web design and development, and fonts and font-making. Intro/Outro music graciously given permission to use called, "Settle In" by Homer Gaines. Transcripts can be found at https://toddl.dev/podcast/transcripts/cederholm/ Show Notes: https://www.simplebits.com/ - SimpleBits https://twitter.com/simplebits - @simplebits on Twitter https://instagram.com/simplebits - SimpleBits on Instagram https://medium.com/dribbble/what-i-learned-co-founding-dribbble-8680f6816e3d - What I Learned Co-Founding Dribbble https://dribbble.com - Dribbble https://simplebits.com/pages/books - All of Dan's books https://abookapart.com/products/css3-for-web-designers - CSS3 For Web Designers https://abookapart.com/products/sass-for-web-designers - Sass For Web Designers https://glyphsapp.com/ - Glyphs App --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/frontendnerdery/support

02:51 - Jennifer's Superpower: Kindness & Empathy * Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-complex-ptsd-2797491) (C-PTSD) 07:37 - Equitable Design and Inclusive Design * Section 508 (https://www.section508.gov/) Compliance * Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag/) (WCAG) * HmntyCentrd (https://hmntycntrd.com/) * Creative Reaction Lab (https://www.creativereactionlab.com/) 15:43 - Biases and Prejudices * Self-Awareness * Daniel Kahneman's System 1 & System 2 Thinking (https://www.marketingsociety.com/think-piece/system-1-and-system-2-thinking) * Jennifer Strickland: “You're Killing Your Users!” (https://vimeo.com/506548868) 22:57 - So...What do we do? How do we get people to care? * Caring About People Who Aren't You * Listening * Using Web Standards and Prioritizing Web Accessibility * Designing with Web Standards by Jeffrey Zeldman (https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Web-Standards-Jeffrey-Zeldman/dp/0321616952) * Bulletproof Web Design by Dan Cederholm (https://www.amazon.com/Bulletproof-Web-Design-flexibility-protecting/dp/0321509021) * Progressive Enhancement * Casey's Cheat Sheet (https://moritzgiessmann.de/accessibility-cheatsheet/) * Jennifer Strickland: “Ohana for Digital Service Design” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfsZlkm59BE) * Self-Care 33:22 - How Ego Plays Into These Things * Actions Impact Others * For, With, and By * Indi Young (https://indiyoung.com/) 44:05 - Empathy and Accessibility * Testability/Writing Tests * Screen Readers * TalkBack (https://support.google.com/accessibility/android/answer/6283677?hl=en) * Microsoft Narrator (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/complete-guide-to-narrator-e4397a0d-ef4f-b386-d8ae-c172f109bdb1) * NVDA (https://www.nvaccess.org/about-nvda/) * Jaws (https://www.freedomscientific.com/products/software/jaws/) * Heydon Pickering (https://twitter.com/heydonworks/status/969520320754438144) Reflections: Casey: Animals can have cognitive disabilities too. Damien: Equitable design initiatives and destroying the tenants of white supremacy. Jennifer: Rest is key. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: MANDO: Hello, friends! Welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode number 243. My name is Mando Escamilla and I'm here with my wonderful friend, Damien Burke. DAMIEN: Thank you, Mando, and I am here with our wonderful friend, Casey Watts. CASEY: Hi, I'm Casey, and we're all here today with Jennifer Strickland. With more than 25 years of experience across the product lifecycle, Jennifer aims to ensure no one is excluded from products and services. She first heard of Ohana in Disney's Lilo & Stitch, “Ohana means family. Family means no one gets left behind, or forgotten.” People don't know what they don't know and are often unaware of the corners they cut that exclude people. Empathy, compassion, and humility are vital to communication about these issues. That's Jennifer focus in equitable design initiatives. Welcome, Jennifer! JENNIFER: Hi! DAMIEN: You're welcome. MANDO: Hi, Jennifer. So glad you're here. JENNIFER: I'm so intrigued. [laughs] And I'm like 243 and this is the first I'm hearing of it?! DAMIEN: Or you can go back and listen to them all. MANDO: Yeah. CASEY: That must be 5, almost 6 years? JENNIFER: Do you have transcripts of them all? CASEY: Yes. JENNIFER: Great! MANDO: Yeah. I think we do. I think they're all transcribed now. JENNIFER: I'm one of those people [chuckles] that prefers to read things than listen. DAMIEN: I can relate to that. CASEY: I really enjoy Coursera courses. They have this interface where you can listen, watch the video, and there's a transcript that moves and highlights sentence by sentence. I want that for everything. MANDO: Oh, yeah. That's fantastic. It's like closed captioning [laughs] for your audio as well. JENNIFER: You can also choose the speed, which I appreciate. I generally want to speed things up, which yes, now that I'm getting older, I have to realize life is worth slowing down for. But when you're in a life where survival is what you're focused on, because you have a bunch of things that are slowing your roll and survival is the first thing in your mind, you tend to take all the jobs, work all the jobs, do all of the things because it's how you get out of poverty, or whatever your thing is. So I've realized how much I've multitasked and worked and worked and worked and I'm realizing that there is a part of the equality is lost there, but we don't all have the privilege of slowing down. DAMIEN: I can relate to that, too. So I believe every one of our past 243 episodes, we asked our guests the same question. You should know this is coming. Jennifer, what is your superpower and how did you acquire it? JENNIFER: I don't know for sure. People have told me that I'm the kindest person they've ever met, people have said I'm the most empathetic person I've ever met, and I'm willing to bet that they're the same thing. To the people, they just see them differently. I acquired being empathetic and kind because of my dysfunction in my invisible disabilities. I have complex post-traumatic stress disorder from childhood trauma and then repeated life trauma, and the way it manifests itself is trying to anticipate other people's needs, emotions, moods, and all of that and not make people mad. So that's a negative with a golden edge. Life is full of shit; how you respond to it shows who you are and rather than molesting kids, or hurting people, I chose to do what I could to make sure that no one else goes through that and also, to try to minimize it coming at me anymore, too. [chuckles] But there's positive ways of doing it. You don't have to be like the people who were crappy to you and the same goes like, you're in D.C.? Man, they're terrible drivers and it's like, [laughter] everybody's taking their bad day and putting it out on the people they encounter, whether it's in the store, or on the roads. I was like, “Don't do that.” Like, how did it feel when your boss treated you like you were garbage, why would you treat anyone else like garbage? Be the change, so to speak. But we're all where we are and like I said in my bio, “You don't know what you don't know.” I realized earlier this week that it actually comes from Donald Rumsfeld who said, “Unknown unknowns.” I'm like, “Oh my God. Oh my God.” MANDO: You can find good in lots of places, right? [laughs] JENNIFER: If you choose to. MANDO: Absolutely. Yeah. JENNIFER: Look at, what's come out of the horror last year. We talk about shit that we didn't use to talk about. Yeah, it's more exhausting when lots of people, but I think in the long run, it will help move us in the right direction. I hope. MANDO: Yeah. That's absolutely the hope, isn't it? JENNIFER: We don't know what we don't know at this time. My sister was volunteering at the zoo and she worked in the Ape House, which I was super jealous of. There's an orangutan there named Lucy who I love and Lucy loves bags, pouches, and lipstick. So I brought a backpack with a pouch and some old lipstick in it and I asked a volunteer if I could draw on the glass. They gave me permission so I made big motions as I opened the backpack and I opened the pouch and you see Lucy and her eyes are like, she's starting to side-eye me like something's going on. And then she runs over and hops up full-time with her toes on the window cell and she's like right up there. So I'm drawing on the glass with the lipstick and she's loving it, reaches her hand behind, poops into her hand, takes the poop and repeats this little actions on the glass. MANDO: [laughs] Which is amazing. It's hilarious so that's amazing. JENNIFER: It's fantastic. I just think she's the bomb. My sister would always send pictures and tell me about what Lucy got into and stuff. Lucy lived with people who would dress her in people clothing and so, she's the only one of the orangutans that didn't grow up only around orangutans so the other orangutans exclude her and treat her like she's a weirdo and she's also the one who likes to wear clothes. Like my sister gave her an FBI t-shirt so she wears the FBI t-shirt and things like that. She's special in my heart. Like I love the Lucy with all of it. DAMIEN: Well, that's a pretty good display of your super empathetic superpower there. [laughter] And it sounds like it might be really also related to the equitable design initiatives? JENNIFER: Yeah. So I'm really grateful. I currently work at a place that although one would think that it would be a big, scary place because of some of the work that we do. I've found more people who know what equity is and care about what equity is. The place I worked before, I talked about inclusive design because that's everywhere else I've worked, it's common that that's what you're doing these days. But they told me, “Don't say that word, it's activism,” and I was stunned. And then I'm like, “It's all in GSA documents here,” and they were like, “Oh,” and they were the ones that were really bad about like prioritizing accessibility and meeting section 508 compliance and just moving it off to put those issues in the backlog. The client's happy, no one's complained, they think we're doing great work. It's like, you're brushing it all under the rug and you're telling them what you've done and you're dealing with people who don't know what section 508 is either because who does? Very few people really know what it means to be section 508 compliant because it's this mystery container. What is in this? What is this? What is this thing? DAMIEN: So for our listeners who don't know, can you tell us a bit what section 508 is? JENNIFER: Sure. So section 508 means that anything paid for with federal funds must be section 508 compliant, which means it must meet WCAG 2.0 success criteria and WCAG is Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. If you're ever looking for some really complicated, dense, hard to understand reading, I recommend opening up the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. I think the people that are on the working groups with me would probably agree and that's what we're all working towards trying to improve them. But I think that they make the job harder. So rather than just pointing at them and complaining like a lot of people do on Twitter, or deciding “I'm going to create a business and make money off of making this clear for people,” I decided instead to join and try to make it better. So the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines are based on Perceivable, Operable, Understandable, and Robust, POUR. Pour like this, not poor like me. [laughs] So there's just a bunch of accessibility criteria that you have to meet to make your work section 508 compliant. It's so hard to read and so hard to understand that I feel for everybody like of course, you don't know what section 508 compliance is. It's really, really hard to read. But if somebody who is an accessibility specialist tells you and writes up an issue ticket, you don't argue with them. You don't say, “This isn't a thing,” you say, “Okay, how soon do I need to fix it?” and you listen to them, but that's not what I experienced previously. Where I am now, it's amazing. In the place I worked before here, like just the contracting, they welcomed everything I said to them regarding accessibility. So I just clearly worked at a contractor that was doing a lot of lip service and not talking the talk, not walking the talk, sorry. [laughs] Super frustrating. Because accessibility is only a piece of it. I am older probably than anybody on this call and I'm a woman working in tech and I identify as non-binary. The arguments I've had about they/them all my life have been stupid, but I'm just like, “Why do I have to be female?” It's just, why do I have to be one, or the other? Anyway, everyone has always argued with me so I'm so grateful for the young ones now for pushing all that. I'm Black, Native, Mexican, and white all smushed together and my grandma wouldn't let me in the house because apparently my father was too dark so therefore, I'm too dark. Hello? Look at this! [laughter] Currently, some people are big on the one drop rule and I always say to people, “If you hate me, or want to exclude me so much because somewhere in me you know there is this and how do you feel about so-and-so? I'm done with you and you are bad people and we've got to fight this stupidity.” I have also invisible disabilities. So I'm full of all these intersectional things of exclusion. I personally experience a lot of it and then I have the empathy so I'm always feeling fuzzy people who are excluded. So what am I supposed to do with the fact that I'm smart, relatively able-bodied, and have privilege of being lighter skin so I can be a really good Trojan horse? I have to be an advocate like, what else am I supposed to do with my life? Be a privileged piece of poop that just wants to get rich and famous, like a lot of people in tech? Nope. And I don't want to be virtue signaling and savior complex either and that's where equitable design has been a wonderful thing to learn more about. HmntyCntrd.com and Creative Reaction Lab out in Missouri, those are two places where people can do a lot of learning about equity and truly inclusion, and challenging the tenants of white supremacy in our working ways. I'm still trying to find better ways of saying the tenants of white supremacy because if you say that in the workplace, that sounds real bad, especially a few months back before when someone else was in office. When you say the tenants of white supremacy in the workplace, people are going to get a little rankled because that's not stuff we talk about in the workplace. DAMIEN: Well, it's not just the workplace. JENNIFER: Ah, yes. DAMIEN: They don't like that at sports bars either. Ask me how I know. MANDO: No, they sure don't. [laughter] JENNIFER: We should go to sports bars together. [laughs] Except I'm too scared to go to them right now unless they're outdoors. But when we talk to people about the actual individual tenants about power hoarding, perfectionism, worship of the written word, and things like that, people can really relate and then you watch their faces and they go, “Yeah, I do feel put my place by these things and prevented from succeeding, progressing, all of these things.” These are things that we've all been ingrained to believe are the way we evaluate what's good and what's bad. But we don't have to. We can talk about this stuff when we can reject those things and replace them with other things. But I'm going to be spending the rest of my life trying to dismantle my biases. I'm okay with my prejudices because even since I was a kid, I recognized that we were all prejudice and it's okay. It's our knee jerk first assumption, but you always have to keep an open mind, but that prejudice is there to protect you, but you always have to question it and go, “What is that prejudice? Is that bullshit? Is it right? Is it wrong?” And always looking at yourself, it's always doing that what you call self-awareness stuff, and always be expanding it, changing it, and moving it. But prejudice? Prejudice has a place to protect, speaking as someone who's had guns in her face, knives through her throat, and various other yucky things, I know that when I told myself, “Oh, you're being prejudiced, push yourself out into that vulnerable feeling,” things didn't go very well. So instead, recognize “Okay, what are you thinking in this moment about this situation? Okay, how can you proceed and keep an open mind while being self-protective?” DAMIEN: Yeah, it sounds like you're talking about Daniel Kahneman's System 1 and System 2 Thinking. We have these instinctive reactions to things and a lot of them are learned—I think they're all learned actually. But they're instinctive and they're not things we decide consciously. They're there to protect us because they're way faster, way more efficient than most of what we are as humans as thinking and enacting beings. But then we also have our rational mind where we can use to examine those things and so, it's important to utilize both. It's also important to know where your instinctive responses are harmful and how to modify them so that they're not harmful. And that is the word. JENNIFER: I've never heard of it. Thanks for putting that in there. Power accretion principles is that it? CASEY: Oh, that's something else. JENNIFER: Oh. CASEY: Type 1 and type 2 thinking. JENNIFER: But I know with a lot of my therapy work as a trauma survivor, I have to evaluate a lot of what I think and how I react to things to change them to respond things. But there are parts of having CPTSD that I am not going to be able to do that, too. Like they're things where for example, in that old workplace where there was just this constant invalidation and dismissal of the work, which was very triggering as a rape survivor/incest survivor, that I feel really bad and it made me feel really unsafe all the time. So I felt very emotional in the moment and so, I'd have to breathe through my nose, breathe out to my mouth, feel my tummy, made sure I can feel myself breathing deeply, and try to calmly explain the dire consequences of some of these decisions. People tend to think that the design and development decisions we make when we're building for the web, it's no big deal if you screw it up. It's not like an architect making a mistake in a building and the building falls down. But when you make a mistake, that means a medical locator application doesn't load for an entire minute on a slow 3G connection—when your audience is people who are financially challenged and therefore, unlikely to have always high-speed, or new devices—you are making a design decision that is literally killing people. When you make a design decision, or development decision not to QA your work on mobile, tablet, and desktop, and somebody else has to find out that your Contact Us options don't open on mobile so people in crisis can't reach your crisis line. People are dying. I'm not exaggerating. I have a talk I give called You're Killing Your Users and it got rejected from this conference and one of the reviewers wrote, “The title is sensationalism. No one dies from our decision,” and I was just like, “Oh my God, oh my God.” MANDO: [laughs] Like, that's the point. JENNIFER: What a privileged life you live. What a wonderfully privileged life! There's a difference between actions and thoughts and it's okay for me to think, “I really hope you fall a flight of stairs and wind up with a disability and leave the things that you're now trying to put kibosh on.” But that's not me saying, “I'm going to go push you down a flight of stairs,” or that I really do wish that on someone. It's emotional venting, like how could you possibly close yourself off to even listening to this stuff? That's the thing that like, how do we get to a point in tech where so many people in tech act like the bad stereotype of surgeons who have this God complex, that there are particular entities working in government tech right now that are told, “You're going to save government from itself. You've got the answers. You are the ones that are going to help government shift and make things better for the citizen, or the people that use it.” But the people that they hire don't know what they don't know and they keep doing really horrible things. Like, they don't follow the rules, they don't take the time to learn the rules and so, they put user personal identifying information, personal health information on the public server without realizing it that's a no-no and then it has to be wiped, but it can never really fully be wiped. And then they make decisions like, “Oh, well now we're only worried about the stuff that's public facing. We're not worried about the stuff that's internally facing.” Even though, the internally facing people are all some of the vulnerable people that we're serving. I'm neutralizing a lot of what I'm talking about. [chuckles] MANDO: Of course. [laughter] DAMIEN: Well, convinced me of the problems. It was an easy sell for me. Now, what do we do? JENNIFER: The first thing we do is we all give a fuck about other people. That's the big thing, right? Like, how do I convince you that you should care about people who aren't you? MANDO: Yeah. CASEY: I always think about the spectrum of caring. I don't have a good word for it, but there are active and passive supporters—and you can be vocal, or quiet—like loud, or quiet. I want more people to be going around the circle of it so if they're vocally opposed, just be quiet, quietly opposed, maybe be quietly in support, and if you're quietly in support, maybe speak up about it. I want to nudge people along around this, the four quadrants. A lot of people only focus on getting people who passively care to be more vocal about it. That's a big one. That's a big transition. But I also like to focus on the other two transitions; getting a lot of people to be quiet about a thing that as opposed. Anyway, everywhere along that process is useful. JENNIFER: I think it's important to hear the people who were opposed because otherwise, how are we ever going to help understand and how are we going to understand if maybe where we've got a big blind spot? Like, we have to talk about this stuff in a way that's thoughtful. I come from a place in tech where in the late 90s, I was like, “I want to move from doing print to onscreen and printing environmental to that because it looks like a lot of stuff has gone to this web thing.” I picked up Jeffrey Zeldman's Designing with Web Standards and Dan Cederholm's Bulletproof Web Design and all of them talk about using web standards and web standards means that you prioritize accessibility from the beginning. So the first thing you build is just HTML tagging your content and everyone can use it. It's not going to be fancy, but it's going to be completely usable. And then you layer things on through progressive enhancement to improve the experience for people with fancy phones, or whatever. I don't know why, but that's not how everybody's coming into doing digital work. They're coming in through React out of the box, thinking that React out of the box is – and it's like nope, you have to build in the framework because nobody put the framework in React. React is just a bunch of hinges and loops, but you have to put the quality wood in and the quality glass panes and the handles that everybody can use. I'm not sure if that analogy is even going to work. But one of the things I realized talking with colleagues today is I tend to jump to three steps in when I really need to go back, start at the beginning, and say, “Here are the terms. This is what section 508 is. This is what accessibility is. This is what A11Y is. This is WCAG, this is how it's pronounced, this is what it means, and this is the history of it.” I think understanding history of section 508 and what WCAG is also vital in the first version of WCAG section 508, it adopted part of what was WCAG 1.0, but it wasn't like a one to one for 1.0, it was just some of it and then it updated in 2017, or 2018, I forget. Without my cheat sheet, I can't remember this stuff. Like I got other things to keep in my brain. CASEY: I just pulled up my favorite cheat sheet and I put it in the chat sidebar here. JENNIFER: Oh, thank you. It's in my slides for Ohana for Digital Service Design that I gave at WX Summit and I think I also gave it recently in another thing. Oh, UXPA DC. But the thing is, the changes only recently happened where it went to WCAG 2.0 was 2018, I think it got updated. So all those people that were resisting me in 2018, 2019, 2020 likely never realized that there was a refresh that they need to pay attention to and I kept trying to like say, “No, you don't understand, section 508 means more now.” Technically, the access board that defines what section 508 is talking about moving it to 2.1, or 2.2 and those include these things. So we should get ahead of the ball, ahead of the curve, or whatever you want to call it and we should be doing 2.1 and 2.2 and even beyond thinking about compliance and that sort of stuff. The reason we want to do human beings is that 2.1 and 2.2 are for people who are cognitively fatigued and I don't think there's anyone who's been through the pandemic who is not cognitively fatigued. If you are, you are just a robot. I don't know. I don't know who could not be not cognitive fatigue. And then the other people that also helps are mobile users. So if you look at any site, look at their usage stats, everything moving up and up and up in mobile devices. There's some people who don't have computers that they only have phones. So it just seems silly not to be supporting those folks. But we need, I don't know. I need to think more about how to get there, how to be more effective in helping people care, how to be more effective in teaching people. One of the big pieces I've learned in the last six months is the first step is self-care—sleep, exercise, eat, or maybe those two need to be back and forth. I haven't decided yet because I'm still trying to get the sleep workout. Before I moved to D.C., I was a runner, hiker, I had a sit spot at the local pond where I would hang out with the fishes and the turtles and the frogs and the birds and here, I overlook the Pentagon and there's swarms of helicopters. I grow lots of green things to put between me and it, but it's hard. The running is stuck because I don't feel safe and things like that. I live in an antiseptic neighborhood intentionally because I knew every time I went into D.C. and I saw what I see, I lose hope because I can't not care. It kills me that I have to walk by people who clearly need – this is a messed up world. We talk about the developing world as the place where people are dying on the side of the road. Do you have blinders on like, it's happening here? I don't know what to do. I care too much. So what do we do? What do you think? DAMIEN: Well, I think you have a hint. You've worked at places that are really resistant to accessibility and accessibility to improvements, and you've worked at some that are very welcoming and eager to implement them. So what were the differences? What do you think was the source of that dichotomy? JENNIFER: I think at the place I worked after I left the hellhole; the product owner was an Asian woman and the other designer was from India. Whereas, before the other place was a white woman and a white man and another white man who was in charge. And then the place I work now, it's a lot of people who are very neurodiverse. I work at MITRE, which is an FFRDC, which is a Federally Funded Research and Development Center. It's full of lots of smart people who are very bookish. It's funny when I was a little kid, I was in the gifted and talented kids and so, they would put us into these class sessions where we were to brainstorm and I love brainstorming. I love imagining things. I remember thinking, “I want to work in a think tank and just all I do all the time is brainstorm and we'd figure out a way to use some of those things!” And I feel a little bit like I'm there now, which is cool and they treat one another really well at MITRE, which is nice. Not to say it's perfect there. Nowhere is perfect. But compared to a lot of places, it's better. I think it's the people are taking the time to listen, taking the time to ask questions. The people I work with don't have a lot of ego, generally. At least not the ones I'm working with. I hear that they do exist there, but I haven't run into many of them. Whereas, the other place, there was a lot of virtue signaling and a lot of savior complex. Actually, very little savior conflicts. They didn't really care about saving anyone, sorry. Snark! [laughs] DAMIEN: Can you tell us a little more about ego and how ego plays into these things? JENNIFER: How do you think ego plays into these things? DAMIEN: Well, I think it causes people to one up and turn questions around it on me, that's one way. Ego means a lot of things to a lot of different people, which is why I asked the question. I think it was introduced to English by Freud and I don't want to use a Freudian theory for anything ever. [laughter] And then when I talk to people about death of the ego and [inaudible] and all of these things, it seems really unpleasant. People like their self-identity, people like being themselves, and they don't want to stop being themselves. So I'm not sure how that's related to what you were saying. CASEY: The way I'm hearing you use ego here sounds like self-centered, thinking about your own perspective, not taking the time and effort and energy to think about other people's perspectives. And if you don't have a diverse set of experiences to lean on your own, you're missing out on a lot. JENNIFER: Yeah. I tend to think about, I guess, it's my dysfunction. Once again, it's like, how do my actions impact others? Why are other people thinking about how their actions impact others? When you're out in public and you've got to cut the cheese, are you going to do it when there are a lot of people around? Are you going to take a stinky deuce in a public bathroom that you know other people in there? If you think about the community around you, you would go find a private one if you cared at all. But most people don't care and they think, “I do what I got to do.” I just think we need to think a little bit more about the consequences of our actions and I tweeted yesterday, or this morning about how – oh, it was yesterday. I was watching TV and a new, one of those food delivery commercials came on. This one, they send you a stove, you get a little oven, and you cook all of their meals in this little throwaway dishes. So you have no dishes, nothing. How much are we going to just keep creating crap? When you think about all of this takeout and delivery, there's just so much trash we generate. We should be taxing the bleep out of companies that make these sorts of things like, Amazon should have the bleep taxed out of it because of all the cardboard and I'm just as guilty because I ordered the thing and the box of staples arrives in a box. It has a plastic bubble wrap all around it. Like it's just a box at $2.50 staples, but I couldn't be bothered to go – I don't know if they have them at Walgreens. Like for real, I don't know. We need to do better. We need to think about the consequences of these decisions and not just do it like, that's the thing that tech has been doing is let's make an MVP and see if it has wheels. Let's make a prototype, but do the thing. Okay, let's do the thing. Oh, it's got wheels. Oh, it's growing, it's growing, it's growing, it's growing. Who cares about the consequences of all of it? Who cares? Your kids, your grandkids someday maybe will when the world is gone. We talk about climate change. We talk about 120-degree temperatures in Seattle and Portland, the ocean on fire, the beaches are eroding, like the ice cap—most of the Arctic is having a 100 and some odd degree temperature day. Like we are screwing it up and our legislation isn't keeping pace with the advances in technology that are just drawing things. Where are the people who care in the cycle and how are they interrupting the VCs who just want to like be the next big tech? Everybody wants to be the next Zuckerberg, or Jack, or Bezos, or Gates, or whatever, and nobody has to deal with the consequences of their actions and their consequences of those design and development decisions. That's where I think it's ego, it's self-centeredness, it's wanting to be famous, it's wanting to be rich instead of really, truly wanting to make the world a better place. I know my definition of better. We've got four different visions of what better is going to be and that's hard work. Maybe it is easier to just focus on getting famous and getting rich than it is on doing the hard work of taking four different visions of what good is and trying to find the way forward. DAMIEN: Making the world a better place. The world will be a better place when I'm rich and famous. But that also means – and that's the truth. [laughter] But what else you said was being empathetic and having a diverse – well, marginalized people in charge where you can see that that's why the impact that things are having on other people. It's not just about me being rich and famous, but it's also about things being better for other people, too. JENNIFER: Yeah. I don't necessarily mean marginalized people have to be in charge. DAMIEN: Right. I took that jump based on your description of the places you worked for. I should have specified that. I wasn't clear enough. JENNIFER: I do have to say that in general, when I've worked for people who aren't the status quo, more often than not, they bring a compassionate, empathetic approach. Not always. There have been some that are just clearly driven and power hungry, and I can't fault them either because it's got to take a lot to come up from wherever and fight through the dog-eat-dog world. But in the project work, there's the for, with and by. The general ways that we redesign and build things for people, then the next piece is we design and build things with the people that we're serving, but the newer way of doing things is that we don't design and build the things, the people that we're serving design the things and tell us what they want to design, and then we figure out how to make sure that it's built the way they tell us to. That goes against the Steve Jobs approach where Steve Jobs said people don't know what they want sort of thing. Wasn't that was he said? DAMIEN: Yeah. Well, there was Henry Ford who said, “If you ask people what they wanted, they would've said faster horses.” JENNIFER: Right. D And Steve Jobs kind of did the same thing. JENNIFER: Right. And we, as designers, have to be able to work with that and pull that out and suss it out and make sure that we translate it into something useful and then iterate with to make sure that we get it. Like when I do research, listening sessions with folks, I have to use my experience doing this work to know what are the – like, Indi Young's inner thinking, reactions, and guiding principles. Those are the things that will help guide you on what people are really wanting and needing and what their purpose is. So you make sure that whatever your understanding is closer to what they're really saying, because they don't know what can be built. They don't know what goes on, but they do know what their purpose is and what they need. Maybe they don't even know what they need, but they do know what their purpose is, or you keep validating things. CASEY: I want to amplify, you said Indi Young. I read a lot of her work and she just says so many things that I wish someone would say, and she's been saying them for a while. I just didn't know about her. Indi Young. JENNIFER: It's I-N-D-I and Y-O-U-N-G. I am so grateful that I got to take her courses. I paid for them all myself, except for one class—I let that other place pay for one through my continuing ed, but I wanted to do it so badly that I paid for all myself. The same thing with all the Creative Reaction Lab and HmntyCntrd stuff; I paid for those out of my own money that probably could have gone to a vacation, [chuckles] or buying a car, or something. But contributing to our society in a responsible and productive way, figuring out how to get my language framework better. Like you said earlier, Damien, I'm really good at pointing out what the problems are. I worry about figuring out how we solve them, because I don't really have the ego to think that I know what the answer is, but I'm very interested in working with others to figure out how we solve them. I have some ideas, but how do you tell a React developer that you really have to learn HTML, you have to learn schematic HTML. That's like learning the alphabet. I don't understand. CASEY: Well, I have some ideas around that. Amber is my go-to framework and they have accessibility baked into the introduction tutorial series. They have like 13 condoned add-ons that do accessibility related things. At the conference, there's always a whole bunch of accessibility tracks. Amber is like happy path accessibility right front and center. React probably has things like that. We could have React's onboarding docs grow in that direction, that would be great, and have more React add-ons to do that that are condoned and supported by the community could have the same path. And it could probably even use a lot of the same core code even. The same principles apply. JENNIFER: If you want to work together and come up with some stuff to go to React conferences, or work with the React team, or whatever. 
CASEY: Sounds fun. DAMIEN: Well, one of the things you talked about the way you described it and made it sound like empathy was so much of the core of it. In order to care about accessibility, you have to empathize with people who need that functionality. You have to empathize with people who are on 3G flip phones. That's not a thing, is it? [laughs] But nonetheless, empathizing. JENNIFER: A flat screen phone, a smartphone looking thing and it's still – if anyone's on a slow 3G, it's still going to be a miserable experience. DAMIEN: Yeah, 3G with a 5-year-old Android OS. JENNIFER: But I don't think it's necessarily that people have to empathize. In an ideal world would, but maybe they could be motivated by other things like fast. Like, do you want to fast cumulative layout shift? Do you want like a great core vitals Google score? Do you want a great Google Lighthouse score? Do you want the clear Axe DevTools scan? Like when I get a 100% little person zooming in a wheelchair screen instead of issues found. Especially if I do it the first time and like, I hadn't been scanning all along and I just go to check it for the first time and it's clean, I'm like, “Yes!” [laughs] CASEY: Automation helps a lot. JENNIFER: Yeah. CASEY: When I worked at USCIS, I don't know what this meant, but they said we cannot automate these tests. I think we can and they didn't do it yet, but I've always been of baffled. I think half of it, you can automate tests around and we had none at the time. JENNIFER: Yeah, you catch 30 to 50% of the accessibility issues via the Axe rule set and JSX Alley and all that. You can catch 30 to 50. CASEY: Sounds great. JENNIFER: That's still better than catching none of them. Still not great, but it's still better than nothing. They're not here to tell us why they can't, but adding things into your end-to-end test shouldn't be that hard if you know how to write tests. I don't personally know how to write tests. I want to. I don't know. Like, I have to choose which thing am I going to work on? I'm working on an acquisition project, defining the requirements and the scope and the red tape of what a contract will be and it's such foreign territory for me. There's a lot of pieces there that I never ever thought I would be dealing with and my head hurts all the time. I feel stupid all the time, but that's okay. If you're not doing something you haven't done before, maybe you're not learning, it's growing. I'm growing. I'm definitely growing, but in different ways and I miss the code thing of I have a to-do list where I really want to get good at Docker, now I want to learn few, things like that and I want to get back to learning Python because Python, I think is super cool. CASEY: There's one thing I wanted to mention earlier that I just remembered. One thing that was eye-opening to me for accessibility concerns is when I heard that screen reader has existed, which was several years into my programming career. I didn't know they were a thing at all. I think it's more common now that people know about them today than 10, 15 years ago. But I still haven't seen someone use a screen reader and that would be really important for me as a developer. I'm not developing software lately either so I'm not really coding that. But if anyone hasn't, you should use a screen reader on your computer if you're developing software that might have to be used by one. JENNIFER: So everyone on a Mac has voiceover. Everyone on an iPhone has voiceover. It's really hard on the iPhone, I feel like I can't, oh, it's really hard. I've heard great things about Talkback on Android. And then on Windows, newer versions have Microsoft Narrator, which is a built-in screen reader. You can also download NVDA for free and install it. It depends on how much money you want to spend. There a bunch of different ways to get Jaws, do Jaws, too. Chrome has Chromebox so you can get another screen reader that way. CASEY: So many options. It's kind of overwhelming. If I had to recommend one for a Windows user and one for a Mac user, would you recommend the built-in ones just to start with, to play with something? JENNIFER: So everywhere I've tested, whether it was at the financial institution, or the insurance place, or the government place, we always had to test with Jaws, NVDA, and voiceover. I test with voiceover because it's what I have on my machine, because I'm usually working on a Mac. But the way I look at the screen reader is the number of people who are using screen readers is significantly fewer than the number of people with cognitive considerations. So I try to use good semantic markup, basic web standards so that things will work; things have always been pretty great in screen readers because of that. I try to keep my code from being too complicated, or my UI is from being complicated, which might do some visual designers seem somewhat boring to some of them. [chuckles] CASEY: Do you ever turn off CSS for the test? JENNIFER: Yes, and if it makes sense that way, then I know I'm doing it right and is it still usable without JavaScript. Better yet, Heydon Pickering's way of like, it's not usable unless you turn off the JavaScript, that was fabulous. I pissed off so many people. But to me, I try to focus on other things like how clear is, how clean is it? Can I tab through the whole UI? Can I operate it with just a keyboard? Your keyboard is your best assistive tech tester. You don't skip. If you can tap through anything without getting stuck, excellent. If you don't skip over nav items. CASEY: My biggest pet peeve is when websites don't work when you zoom in, because all of my devices I zoom in not because my vision is bad, but because for my posture. I want to be able to see my screen from a far distance and not lean in and craning my neck over laptop and my phone, both and a lot of websites break. JENNIFER: Yeah. CASEY: You zoom in the text at all, you can't read anything. JENNIFER: Yeah. At the one place I worked before, we required two steps of zoom in and two steps of zoom out, and it still had to be functional. I don't see that in most places; they don't bother to say things like that. CASEY: Yeah. JENNIFER: At the government, too – CASEY: I wonder how common it is if people do that. I do it so I think it's very common, but I don't know the right. [laughter] JENNIFER: But that's how the world is, right? I can tell you that once you hit this old age and your eyes start to turn against you and things are too small, or too light, you suddenly understand the importance of all of these things so much more. So for all of those designers doing your thin gray text on white backgrounds, or thin gray text on gray backgrounds, or your tiny little 12 and under pixels for your legaleas, karma is out to get you. [chuckles] We've all done it. Like there was a time I thought nobody cared about the legaleas. That's not true. Even your footer on your website should be big enough for people to read. Otherwise, they think I'm signing away my soul to zoom because I can't read it. If you can zoom it in, that's great. But some apps disable the zoom. DAMIEN: So we usually end on a series of reflections. How do you feel about moving to that? JENNIFER Sure! DAMIEN: We let our guests go last. Casey, do you have a reflection you want to share with us? CASEY: I'm thinking back to Mando's dog and I thought it was interesting, Jennifer, that you linked your experiences with the dog's experiences. Like, some of the symptoms you have might be similar if a dog has CPTSD, too and I think that's really insightful. I think a lot of animals have that kind of set up, but we don't treat them like we treat humans with those issues even if they're similar. DAMIEN: It was in your bio, equitable design initiatives, I really want it to dig into that because that fascinates me and I guess, if draws that bridge between things that I think are very important, or very important for me, both accessibility, that sort of work, especially in software design, because that's where I'm at. And then destroying the tenants of white supremacy and being able to connect those as things that work together and seeing how they work together. Yeah, that's what I'm going to be reflecting on. JENNIFER: Yeah. Whenever we're doing our work, looking for opportunities to surface and put it out for everyone to look at who has power, if this changes who has power, if this doesn't change who has power, what is motivating the players, are people motivated by making sure that no one's excluded, or are people motivated by making sure that their career moves forward, or they don't get in trouble rather than truly serving? I still am in the mindset of serving the people with a purpose that we're aiming to meet the needs of kind of thing. I still have that mindset. A lot of the prep work, we're still talking about the people we aim to serve and it's still about getting them into the cycle. That is a very big position of power that a designer has and acknowledging that that's power and that I wield that power in a way that I consider responsible, which is to make sure that we are including people who are historically underrepresented, especially in those discussions. I'm really proud of a remote design challenge where all of our research participants were either people of color, or people with disabilities. Man, the findings insights were so juicy. There was so much that we could do with what we got. It was really awesome. So by equitable design initiatives, it's really just thinking about acknowledging the power that we have and trying to make sure we do what we can to share it, transfer it, being really respectful of other perspectives. I've always thought of it as infinite curiosity about others and some people have accused me being nosy and they didn't realize it's not about getting up in their private business. It's just, I want to be gracious and respect others. What I will reflect on was how I really need to rest. I will continue to reflect on how I rest is key. I'm making a conscious decision for the next couple of months to not volunteer because I tend to do too much, as Casey may, or may not know. [chuckles] Yeah, I want to wake up in the morning and feel energized and ready to take full advantage of, which is not the right way to phrase it, but show up as my best self and well-prepared for the work. Especially since I now have found myself a new incredibly compassionate, smart place that genuinely aims to improve equity and social justice, and do things for the environment and how grateful I am. I totally thought this place was just about let's them all and it's so not. [laughs] So there's so many wonderful people. I highly recommend everybody come work with me if you care about things. DAMIEN: That's awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jennifer for being our guest today. It's been a pleasure. The author's affiliation with The MITRE Corporation is provided for identification purposes only, and is not intended to convey or imply MITRE's concurrence with, or support for, thepositions, opinions, or viewpoints expressed by the author. ©2021 The MITRE Corporation. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Approved for public release. Distribution unlimited 21-2206. Special Guest: Jennifer Strickland.

Today I'm talking to Dan Cederholm (@simplebits) about his somewhat reluctant journey into growing Dribbble. He's a self-described "accidental entrepreneur. So, in this interview, we'll talk about how someone who identifies as a creator and a designer can fill the role of a founder.  Follow Dan on Twitter: https://twitter.com/simplebits Check out Dribbble: https://dribbble.com/

Dribbble’s Co-Founder Dan Cederholm joins us on this episode of Overtime! Meg and Dan discuss the role of designers today, face masks that are compatible with Face ID, self-publishing, and working on your own.[00:10] Introducing the Episode with Meg Lewis[00:36] Catching up with Dan Cederholm[06:31] Medium: If Engineers are Talking to Users, Do We Still Need Designer?[11:20] Resting Risk Face: Facial ID Respiratory Masks[15:20] Meg and Dan discuss the process of self-publishing and working independently Links mentioned in today’s episode:Simplebits.comAdvencher.co This episode is brought to you by .ME, the most personal internet domain that puts your signature on your work. Take control over your online brand and show your prospective clients how awesome you are! Whether you decide on a YourNameSurname.ME combination or a well-known alias for your domain name, .ME is uniquely positioned to provide you with the space you need to create a captivating online persona that’s a direct reflection of you. Leave some feedback:What do you think about our new format? Please let us know in the comments below!Did you enjoy this episode? If so, please leave a short review. Connect with us:Meg LewisDribbble profileTwitter: @darngoooodInstagram: @darngoooodWebsiteDribbbleDribbble profileTwitter: @dribbbleInstagram: @dribbbleWebsite Interested in sponsoring this rad podcast?Email overtime@gmail.com

Dribbble’s Co-Founder Dan Cederholm joins us on this episode of Overtime! Meg and Dan discuss the role of designers today, face masks that are compatible with Face ID, self-publishing, and working on your own.[00:10] Introducing the Episode with Meg Lewis[00:36] Catching up with Dan Cederholm[06:31] Medium: If Engineers are Talking to Users, Do We Still Need Designer?[11:20] Resting Risk Face: Facial ID Respiratory Masks[15:20] Meg and Dan discuss the process of self-publishing and working independently Links mentioned in today’s episode:Simplebits.comAdvencher.co This episode is brought to you by .ME, the most personal internet domain that puts your signature on your work. Take control over your online brand and show your prospective clients how awesome you are! Whether you decide on a YourNameSurname.ME combination or a well-known alias for your domain name, .ME is uniquely positioned to provide you with the space you need to create a captivating online persona that’s a direct reflection of you. Leave some feedback:What do you think about our new format? Please let us know in the comments below!Did you enjoy this episode? If so, please leave a short review. Connect with us:Meg LewisDribbble profileTwitter: @darngoooodInstagram: @darngoooodWebsiteDribbbleDribbble profileTwitter: @dribbbleInstagram: @dribbbleWebsite Interested in sponsoring this rad podcast?Email overtime@gmail.com

Welcome to The SimpleBits Show—a new podcast hosted by Dan Cederholm. I'll be sharing things I've learned and interviewing designers and creative folks who'll share what they've learned. It's also the first audio podcast hosted by a puppet.

In this first ever recording of the Remote Show, It was my privilege to chat with Zack Onisko - CEO of Dribbble. In this wide ranging conversation we discuss his career in design and growth, the progression of Dribbble as an online community and tips for hiring and managing remote workers. Zack had some great insights about culture building in remote teams, hiring/retaining top talent and the importance of Emojis. For those who don't know - Dribbble is an online community for showcasing user-made artwork and serves as the go to resource for networking and feedback for web designers. They're constantly looking for ways to showcase top talent from around the world and help great designers with employment opportunities, support and much more! Please check out Dribbble.com and follow them on social media! Also follow @zack415 to see what he's up to. Thanks for listening! Transcript: Matt H.: Hello, everyone. My name is Matt Hollingsworth, and it is my great pleasure to welcome you to the first episode of The Remote Show. On this show, we will talk to professionals in a variety of industries in positions around the world about their experiences working remotely. The pros, the cons, and everything in between. Along the way, we hope that we can provide some unique insights that will help you on your remote work journey. The Remote Show is brought to you by weworkremotely.com, the number one place to find and list remote jobs. Without 220,000 unique users per month, it is the best place to find your new qualified candidate. [00:00:39] My first guest on my show today is Zack Onisko. Zach is the CEO of Dribbble, which is an online community for showcasing design work from some of the best designers in the world. It has grown to become an inspiration destination for hundreds of millions of people, now a go to resource for discovering and connecting with designers and creative talent around the world. Check out dribbble.com, that's D-R-I-B-B-B-L-E.com if you haven't already checked that out. [00:01:07] Previously, Zack was Vice President of Growth and interim VP of Product at Hired, Inc. Dribbble is now a 100% remote team with over 40 employees. With all that said, Zack, thanks for being on the show today. I'm not sure if you're aware, but this is the very first recording of The Remote Show. [00:01:24]Zack Onisko: Well, cool. I hope to make it worth it. [00:01:26]Matt H.: Yeah, I'm sure it will be, for sure, and we're super excited to talk to you today, so that's great. Thank you so much for being on. [00:01:33]Zack Onisko: Thanks for having me. [00:01:34]Matt H.: I'm sure most of our listeners have heard of Dribbble or know about Dribbble, but why don't we start with what you do at Dribbble and how things are going, and we'll go from there. [00:01:43]Zack Onisko: Sure, yeah. So Dribbble is a global community for designers. We're gonna celebrate 10 years this summer, so we've been around for a while. It's a global brand. We have designers all over the world who come to Dribbble for inspiration, exposure, feedback, job opportunities, and yeah. I took over as CEO about two years ago. [00:02:08]Matt H.: Nice, nice. So were you part of the community before you came on as CEO, or were you- [00:02:15]Zack Onisko: Yeah. [00:02:15]Matt H.: Yeah? Okay, cool. [00:02:17]Zack Onisko: Yeah, I mean, so just a quick background on me, I started my career about 20 years ago as a web designer. I started a little freelance business for a couple of years, and then got a formal design degree and thought I was gonna go the agency route. Was really into Flash and motion design at the time and really loved that stuff. Then ended up taking a job at a startup and then my role kind of quickly moved out of design into product management and to more of a growth, executive roles at numerous startups over the course of the last two decades. [00:02:54] Along the way, for one reason or another, my career trajectory has landed in companies that were either in the recruitment space or the design space, and so Dribbble's kind of in the middle of those two worlds. So anyway, kind of full circle. [00:03:11]Matt H.: Yeah, that's great. I think it probably helps with getting the jobs in the executive and marketing and growth that you had, the background that you did. Correct me if I'm wrong there, but it seems likes these things tie all together, so. [00:03:24]Zack Onisko: Yeah, I mean, when I met Andrew Wilkinson from Tiny, that was kind of how he found me, where he's like, "Hey, I found, I have this opportunity to run by you that I think is a perfect meld of your background and so forth." So far so good. I took over the company. We were eight people. We're 47 today, fully remote. The company has grown kind of all of KPIs are up into the right. Our traffic is up 100%, our users are up, user growth as community is up 300%, and revenue's up 400%, so. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun, yeah. [00:04:05]Matt H.: Nice. So since you came out, or since you've been part of the community for so long, how have you seen the Dribbble community change, because it was my understanding that it was invite only originally, and it was sort of a core group of designers that were wanting to show their work. Then it's morphed into what it is today, so where, from a business perspective, how has it changed since you've been on and over the course of the eight years? [00:04:29]Zack Onisko: Yeah, so it's still invite only. The community was really borne out of our co-founder. Dan Cederholm was writing a lot of books on web design and speaking in a lot of conferences, and he was really leaning over the shoulders of people at these conferences and saying, "Wow, that looks really cool. What are you working on?" That's really kind of the inception of Dribbble was this premise of being able to share what you're working on with a handful of designers. It was a closed community to start, just kind of a handful of top designers. Then the opened it up to the world via an invite system, and that was really just because Dan and Rich, the co-founders, were really just the two of them for many years. They were growing the business, so they had to be mindful of server bills and things like this. [00:05:22] So it was partly to kind of restrict growth and then partly was quality control, right? They just wanted to make sure that the company, the platform had a high bar in terms of the quality of work that was being shared. That's still true today. It's been this exclusive community for a long time, which has been great for the people inside, but for the people not inside, we have designers all over the world now. They might not know somebody in their personal network to be able to invite them to Dribbble. So we're starting to look at ways that we can move away from an exclusive community and be more inclusive as we grow and mature. Part of that is looking at our invite algorithms, how we can be more inclusive to geographies that are not representative today. Then also just by working on partnerships with different organizations who have populations of designers who are not necessarily familiar with the Dribbble brand yet. For instance, design conferences in other countries or design schools. Things like this. [00:06:33]Matt H.: Nice. Yeah, so it seems like what's so unique about Dribbble from my perspective is it has a long history and it still has the reputation, a very high reputation amongst the community that maybe other sort of forum style communities online haven't been able to sort of maintain. It seems like everybody still points to Dribbble, even though given your growth, things can potentially dilute, I guess, is the right word in terms of the quality and that sort of thing. So it's been really cool to see Dribbble maintain that. So how have you been able to do that outside of typical quality control? [00:07:06]Zack Onisko: Yeah, so the way we're looking at it today is that we want to solve quality control with technology and not by people gating. There's just a ton of amazing designers, like literally hundreds of thousands of amazing designers out there doing really interesting work, and there's a ton of designers who are doing lesser quality work, but a platform like ours has the ability through social signals to be able to rise the good work and bring that work to the homepage so it gets more exposure regardless of if you've been on the platform for ten years and have 400,000 followers or if you're brand new to the platform and have 400 followers. [00:07:47] So that's really the effort, how we're looking at the future is kind of this evolution and how do we grow the community. The community itself, like we have an internal kind of north star mantra, and it's that we'll be successful as a platform and as a community and as a business if we help designers become successful. So a lot of our focus over the past year has been around work opportunities and getting freelancers leads for projects, helping designers who are looking for full-time gigs get gigs. That's really delivering just a ton of value back to the community, and in turn, that's fueled out growth. [00:08:25] As we look to the future, we're very interested in investing in education with hundreds of thousands upon millions of up and coming designers visiting the site every month. Today, unless you have an invite, there's not really a product for you on Dribbble other than an inspiration destination. So we want to look at, okay, how can we help these designers get jobs, right? How do they get the education to at least get the baseline so they can start to grow and become better designers over time? There's a design shortage right now, so we're in a very interesting time where technology has flattened the competitive landscape, and it's more easy than ever before to be able to start a new business and compete globally. [00:09:07] The change, just as kind of a quick case study, there were about 150 SAS products in the martech space five, six years ago. Today, there's over 7,000. So as a consumer, as a business owner, to look at that landscape of potential marketing solutions, like its paradox of choice is super real, right? There's just all these different, discrete products. So the way that business owners are now looking at how they differentiate and how they compete in the market is by building better products, a better user experience, and that all stems in design. The old adage was just go throw more engineers at your product and build more features, and today it's really about just let's build a better product that will attract customers and retain them from leaving to go to a competitor that could have feature parity with your product. [00:09:56] So really, companies are looking to win on customer experience and quality. We've seen this in Silicon Valley for years, right? Dropbox and Airbnb and Lyft really doubling down and building this design centric culture, but now we're starting to see this in Fortune 500. We're starting to see this across all industries, not just the Apples or the Nikes who you think are design led on within the F500, but companies like McDonalds and Kohls and Ford Motor Company. [00:10:26] A great case study to illustrate the change in demand is IBM, old big blue, which you might envision being kind of a cube farm and they're actually innovating at a crazy pace. The ratio of engineer to designer at IBM has changed in the last five years from 72 engineers for every one designer to now it's eight engineers for every one designer. On their mobile teams, it's actually 3:1. So they're making mass investments, and we're seeing this kind of all across the landscape. There's just not enough designers in the market to facilitate the need. People used to talk about this demand problem and now there's companies who are raising their series A series B and a design manager has basically 20 job openings that they need to fill, and they just have difficulty finding talent. [00:11:13] So anyway, to kind of backtrack, so education is definitely a huge focus for us as we move forward, because we see that there's a lot of ambition, people who are very interested in design. There's just a lack of education and training available at a professional level. [00:11:29]Matt H.: Right. Right now, it seems like Dribbble is in a pretty unique situation to be able to offer those education resources given your region and given who is already on the platform. What would be the typical channel of a designer that wants to get the education and professional resources that you mentioned right now? Is that available easily for these people, or is it sort of, whether they go through the typical channels? [00:11:53]Zack Onisko: Yeah, I mean, there's design schools, right? That's the typical path that you go down. You go and you spend 50k a year to go to one of these top design schools, RISD, Parsons. These are great schools, but not everyone can afford it. Not everyone is in the states. There's quite a bit of barrier to entry for a mass population to be able to get access to this education, this kind of baseline education for the craft. So yeah, so that's where we see a big opportunity for us is if we can help facilitate that and bring this skillset to a much wider audience. [00:12:29]Matt H.: Interesting. I think just to circle back, so you mentioned that Dribbble is fully remote for the team. Is that correct? [00:12:36]Zack Onisko: Yeah, yep. [00:12:36]Matt H.: Nice. So for you, were you working remotely in your previous job, or is this the first one? [00:12:42]Zack Onisko: So I have, right? So to go back to when I was running growth marketing at Creative Market, we had part of the team in San Francisco. I'm born and raised in San Francisco, so just as the nature of the beast of so many companies being here, I just didn't have the ambition to work remote. I think going back to early days, like the mid 90s, there's this Sandra Bullock movie, The Net. She's like hacking on the beach, and I'm like, oh, she's like in her bathing suit and with her laptop open. I'm like, "That's what working on the internet is like!" [00:13:14]Matt H.: That's the dream. [00:13:14]Zack Onisko: But fast forward to reality, my last job at Hired, I was commuting two hours a day. I have a young family, so we moved out into the suburbs, so I was taking the train in to San Francisco every day. I had to work ten hours at the office, and then commute back home. So I was literally leaving the house before my kids were awake and coming home after they'd gone to bed. I just wasn't seeing my family during the workday. So that bummed me out. When I was at Hired, we were a 280 person team. There were about 100 people in San Francisco and the rest of the team was spread out all over the world in 17 different cities. [00:13:56] Of the people I managed in San Francisco, I would get people hitting me up every day saying, "Hey, can I work from home? Can I work from the coffee shop? Hey, I don't want to commute to work today." My stance was, we hire great people. We do great work. As long as you get your work down, I don't care if you work from the office or from the beach. That was kind of my stance on it, and it worked really well. It was kind of just this trust in our employees and they got the work done. [00:14:24] Of the folks who were in the office, the funny thing is is that there's a limited supply of conference rooms, and everyone has meetings all throughout the day. So we'd fight to get into these rooms and then we'd just flip open our laptops and hop on Zoom to talk to our remote workers. So it's funny. I mean, we were playing six figures a month for rent. Hired shared the same building with Uber and Square, so super expensive. So when I joined Dribbble, the team of eight were all remote, and so I had just done a remodel on my house and built out a home office, which I'm in right now. [00:15:02]Matt H.: Yeah, it looks great. [00:15:03]Zack Onisko: Yeah, thank you. I have a bunch of guitars here, like you have behind you. Kind of just built my perfect little work den, and the original plan was oh, this is gonna be a place where I would work a day a week as I commute to the city the rest of the time. So when I joined Dribbble, I'm like, you know what? Let's just do this remote thing. I'm friends with the team at Envision, the team at Automatic, and I saw them successfully grow their 100% remote teams into over 500 employees nearing like 1,000 employees now. For me, it was a huge mitigation of risk, right? If these companies can do it successfully, if they can figure it out, we can figure it out too. [00:15:49] So that was a pretty big decision early on. I think when I first joined, I was like, okay, should we get a WeWork? Then we started throwing some job reqs up and started to get these really great applicants from all over the place. So it just kind of snowballed. It was kind of on purpose and kind of accidental, to be honest, but we started to hire some really great people from all over. We had some folks in Canada, in BC, so we spun up a Canadian entity and we have a US entity, so I payrolled both countries. We literally had people spread out all over North America. We have a developer in the UK as well. [00:16:31] So we started to get folks coming in, and also coming from just areas that weren't super expensive to live in. You can live off of a national average salary, right? Our pay is actually very competitive. We're in this, everyone's kind of between the 75th and 90th percentile, but way less than hiring people from San Francisco and New York who demand 3x national averages. So it's given us this freedom and (inaudible) we don't have this crazy, two and a half million dollar lease on a fancy office space in San Francisco. That goes back to our bottom line, and it's allowed us to build a fast growing, profitable, and bootstrapped business. [00:17:23]Matt H.: Yeah. Something that I've come across quite often with companies that are starting out fully remote is that it wasn't necessarily their intention to go remote right off the bat. It was something that just sort of came naturally as you mentioned with the realization that there's all these benefits that come with having remote workers and just create a pool of applicants to pull from and this talent that wouldn't necessarily come across your plate. [00:17:44] So that's definitely a trend. Is there an area of remote work that you've had difficulties with in terms of team building? Is there some separation between the fully remote team and people that are in an office together, and how has that affected sort of the culture building at Dribbble? [00:18:01]Zack Onisko: Yeah, no, not to pat ourselves on the back too much, but we haven't had too much pain, mostly because we've gone in eyes wide open from the get go. So from the early team, we started to instrument kind of best practices in management, operations, organizational dynamics, these kind of management one on one stuff. Things like we weekly one on ones, so every direct report has a one one with their manager. No one feels like they're on a lonely island. They're not out of the loop in communication. [00:18:36] One of the things that we saw fall down at my last company was that because there were 100 people in San Francisco, there were a lot of decisions being made, a lot of communication was happening that was going undocumented, and the remote folks were just out of the loop. So they're hearing about this stuff secondhand, and they're like, "Okay, well, why wasn't my voice being heard? Why wasn't I part of this decision?" Or "Why wasn't I even told this thing happened with the company that's this major thing?" So kind of learning from that experience, we knew we didn't want to do a hybrid approach. We wanted to go completely, 100%, and that was gonna force us to, one is to over-communicate, and two, and to over-document. [00:19:16] So like I said, we do weekly one on ones. We do a team call, like an all hands call weekly, which gives every functional team an opportunity to do a deep dive into what they've been working on that week. We try to focus in on actual, visual demos of the feature versus going into bullet points where people can zone out and space out if they're not familiar with the project. So that's really brought us together as a company. At the end of that call, we open it up for personal stories. We just leave 15 minutes at the end of this call just for us all to interact as a team and as people. [00:19:51] We have also evolved our culture a bit. We really want to invest, because we don't have these crazy line items in our P&L, we can reinvest that back into the team and do some really fun things for culture. Our perks, our Canadian employees, we do an upgrade on benefits. With the US folks, we try to have some of the best plans out there. We pay for most plans 100% of not only the employee, but their entire family's medical/dental. We have three month maternity leave. So there's some interesting things to do, education funds, gym funds, coffee funds. There's a bunch of cool things we do just to kind of make sure that people are comfortable in their job. [00:20:31] But one of the interesting things we did recently is that we invested in a conference, and the idea here is that we knew we wanted to have FaceTime. As a remote company, we wanted to get together at least twice a year to just hang out and be able to bond as people in the same locale. So we made up a design conference, and it's called Hang Time. We bring in some of the top design leaders in the world to come share their stories and give workshops. We travel to a different city each time, and so we get the chance to invite the local community out to experience the conference, but also to meet our entire team, because the conference actually covers the T&E expense to fly out and put everyone up in hotels for a week. [00:21:17]Matt H.: Nice. [00:21:18]Zack Onisko: So that's an interesting thing that we do that's been a side effect of going fully remote. [00:21:24]Matt H.: One of the things that I wanted to ask you about was as a fully remote team, how has the hiring process changed for Dribbble or evolved as a fully remote team? Do you look for something specifically in the people that you hire that you wouldn't normally look for elsewhere? [00:21:40]Zack Onisko: Yeah, we do. So we try to screen for obviously skill set. We try to find people who are A players, top of their game, functional experts. We have a really high bar for culture, so it's a cliché of the no asshole rule, but we're kind of silly and goofy. We make a lot of puns and dad jokes and a lot of crazy emojis and gifs and that kind of stuff. It just makes work fun and so we want to find people who have that similar spirit. We look for people who have an affinity for the design community or have a creative background of some sort. A lot of us are musicians or have come from some other type of arts background, which just kind of helps you just hit the ground running and just understand our mission and our vision for what we're trying to build here. [00:22:30] The fourth thing is really just trying to weed out people who just aren't geared for remote work. We've only made a couple hiring mistakes, pulling people out of big companies where there's just a lot of, you come to work and you sit around, you do a lot of meetings and you play a lot of politics, and that's really the job is, in some of these larger organizations. For us, we're a startup. We're still a roll up your sleeves, get shit done type of an organization, so that type of vein doesn't really work in a remote environment or really any small company environment, but especially a remote, right? It's just a huge red flag culturally when you see just see people not pulling their weight. [00:23:19] So we're really just trying to find, trying to suss out that. We also want to suss out people who are just naturally just not into remote. There's kind of two types of people. There's people who working from home, they're like 3x more efficient and effective than if they were at a desk. In Silicon Valley, the wisdom is to have this open office with all the desks are doors on filing cabinets, and everyone, it's just this sea of people of clatter and people working. But if you go to one of these offices, everyone's wearing noise canceling headphones and they're just desperately just trying to focus on their work without being interrupted by their peers. [00:24:00] So we believe that's kind of a broken model, but there's a lot of people, they just need to be around people and in an office to be able to get work done. So we try to avoid those hires. They're people who, when they work from home, they can't help themselves, but they have to, they get distracted by the sunshine or they have to turn on the TV or they have to go clean their house. That's just not gonna, that's not gonna work for us. We try to suss out for those types of signals. [00:24:30]Matt H.: Right. Speaking of distractions and that sort of thing, is there anything that you do personally or you've seen sort of widespread across the Dribbblers to maintain focus and to make sure that they're in the most efficient workspace possible? [00:24:41]Zack Onisko: Yeah, I mean, for a lot of us who are either former entrepreneurs, former founders, former freelancers, consultants, that type of experience, you're working solo a lot and you're responsible personally to get your job done. So the way we've structured the company is just, people have responsibilities and they sign up for work to be done, and it's really kind of up to that person to find their sweet spot, whether that's a coffee shop, whether that's their home office, their bed, or if they need to go to a WeWork. [00:25:27] It just comes down to getting your work done. From our perspective, as a leadership team, the whole relationship's just built on a foundation of trust, and so if you have the skillset to do the job that you signed up to do, we trust you to go do it. If you don't do it, then we'll have a conversation about it, but for new people looking to work remote, to answer your question, I think it's really about finding your quiet place to be able to focus in and get good work done. [00:25:59] We've also been very mindful of building best practices for Dribbble. I have an HBR subscription. I read all these best practices from other companies, but it rarely works where you can kind of copy and paste from somebody else. So we've been very mindful of trying to develop best practices for Dribbble and working remote at our company as we've grown. So a couple things we've been very mindful of. Time zone, so we try to get people as much overlap as possible. We try to hire, we try to solely hire in North America whenever possible so that we maximize the overlap, right? There's about a three hour gap between east coast and west coast. We ask our east coast folks to, if they can, can they start later in the day? We ask our west coast folks to start early in the day, just to maximize the overlap. [00:26:56] What we don't want and where we see inefficiencies is if we have people working odd hours and someone on the team just can't get ahold of somebody and there's a whole day, 24 hour cycle passes before a project is unblocked. That's just an inefficient way to work. Another way is that we've, what we've been very mindful of is meetings and the number of meetings people are in. That's just a huge time suck, and so we developed a couple rules internally. One is that we have a no meeting Thursday and Friday policy. So that gives ICs time to go heads down and just focus on their work uninterrupted. People are free to close Slack and just go and plug in. [00:27:42] The other thing we do is we have a no agenda, no meeting policy, and so that means that whoever's spinning up a meeting needs to write an agenda ahead of that meeting and share it with whoever they're inviting. There's time to actually do the research and dig into whatever decisions need to be made and to help minimize the amount of meetings that people have. So anyway, just kind of, these are just a couple examples of ways that we started to just evolve and come up with strategy for us to work more efficiently as a remote team. [00:28:17]Matt H.: Did you find that when you first were starting to work remotely or when you first came on with Dribbble that there was a difficulty separating work from your private life? Was it just a matter of shutting off at a certain part of the day or turning off Slack or that sort of things? Was there a process that you had to put in place to make sure that people were getting their own time? [00:28:37]Zack Onisko: So people are pretty good about it. I wish I was actually better at it. I'm self admitted a workaholic, and I have a hard time turning it off, but this year in particular, I've been better at, this is silly, but carving out time to eat. So actually taking a lunch break, and I take the dog for a walk. I carve out time at the end of the day to go to the gym and actually, and just having a routine pulls me out of work mode and gets me to think about other things. But most days, around 6:00 o'clock when my family kind of comes home is when I turn everything off and like to spend at least a few hours with my wife. Helping my wife in the kitchen and helping the kids get ready for bed and all that stuff. Baths and that's super important to me. Then yeah, usually after the kids go to bed I hop back on online and do a couple more hours. [00:29:38] But for the most part, the team's really good about that work/life balance. One thing that we also have is just, again, just built on this foundation of trust. We provide everyone with a pretty flexible ability to plan their day however they choose. So we have no strict hours where you need to be in seat. We've had an employee who went half time to travel around in her van and live in her van for six months and camped and spent half of her day working and half of her day rock climbing. [00:30:17]Matt H.: Nice. [00:30:17]Zack Onisko: That was her jam. We have another employee who is a coach for his kids' sports teams, so he typically logs off at 3:00, goes and does that a couple days a week, and then comes back and makes up some time at the end of the day. So we want to provide these opportunities for people. It's a luxury of life to work remote, really. We can actually take our kids to the doctor or go get groceries or go do normal life stuff whenever, at a moment's notice. So that's cool. [00:30:49] We also want to make sure that people are always kind of recharged and have time to do great work and aren't burning out. So we have an unlimited PTO policy. People can take extended vacations and come back and we just ask the people to do great work and we're pretty open and flexible outside of that. [00:31:09]Matt H.: Yeah, it sounds like for you, and I think for a lot of other fully remote teams, it really comes down to trusting your employees and the people that you work with to be able to get their work done. [00:31:19]Zack Onisko: I mean, it's the way it should be, right? I mean, if I'm a manager in an office, there's no guarantee that just because somebody's sitting at a desk that they're doing work. Most of my employees at my last company were just spending most of their day on Facebook and Twitter anyway, so. [00:31:33]Matt H.: Yeah. So within the community of leaders in tech, it seems like it's definitely moving in the direction of sort of being open to remote work and flexible work and that sort of thing. Is there a common thread or a common theme of reasons why you wouldn't within the CEO and tech leadership community? What's something that you hear a lot for that? [00:31:54]Zack Onisko: Yeah, I think there's a lot of knee jerk reaction from investors, and from the mindset of an investor, they're just looking for a return on their investment at some point in the future. A lot of these funds are seven, ten years and they have to pay back to the investors in those funds. So the way that these portfolios are built are positioned to flip these companies and sell them to larger acquirers. I think the fear with investors is Google or Apple or Facebook, are they gonna want to acquire a remote team or are they only gonna want to acquire teams that are willing to move to Mountain View? [00:32:43]Matt H.: Right. Interesting. [00:32:45]Zack Onisko: So I think that's the big hesitation is really coming from the venture world. For us being bootstrapped, it's just not a problem. We have the investors, and so again, the landscape is quickly shifting. The ease to be able to start a company is becoming more and more easy and efficient to get something off the ground. So I think the entrepreneurial landscape is gonna shift as well, and less companies are gonna require seed funds and angel funds to get something going and more people will be able to work with talented people all over the world and not have to move to companies, to San Francisco to attend YC or whatever. [00:33:34]Matt H.: Right. It seems like something that I hear or come across quite often is that fear but in a different context of more aligned with how do I know my people are working when they should be working? How do I know? It just seems like it's more difficult to micromanage a fully remote team, and maybe I'm wrong in that, but it seems like that's something that people fear of letting go at least of the control a little bit there. [00:34:01]Zack Onisko: Yeah, honestly, I think that's just an immature management mindset. To be honest, I think any seasoned manager, you have goals that are set. You have milestones. You have weekly sprints. You have daily standups. It's really easy to see if work's not getting done or not. [00:34:23]Matt H.: Right, of course. Yeah, yeah. [00:34:26]Zack Onisko: So again, it's about hiring great people who are great at their functional skillset and just trusting people to do great work and do it on their terms and it works out. [00:34:37]Matt H.: Right, now what would you say to somebody who is maybe going to transition or is starting a company and wants to go remote or is part of a leadership team that maybe are thinking about considering remote work. What would you say would be something that you would want to start right away as your team disperses in terms of processes and practices and things like that? [00:35:00]Zack Onisko: I mean, I would say focus on efficiencies and unblocking inefficiencies. So kind of starting at the bare basics. Time zone is gonna be the big one. With Slack and Google Docs and Zoom, those tools would help facilitate some of the blockers that people complained about years ago. So it's much easier to get set up and running off the bat. Then it's really just about common tools for working as a web company, right? It's project management. It's Asana or JIRA or whatever your flavor is. It's having some kind of realtime collaboration, so chat, whether that's Slack or HipChat or whatever your jam is. [00:35:55] So anyway, there's all these tools, and that really is the biggest, that has been the biggest roadblock, I think, historically from allowing, except for bandwidth, right? To allow this type of work to happen. So I think that when you're small, there's just not a whole lot of process needed. There's not a whole lot of heavy lifting needed to get this going and to work effectively. As you grow and the teams get bigger, then you just need to lay down some best practices and processes, but we take a very light stroke to those sorts of things. [00:36:42] But it just keeps people on the same page. What you don't want is people feeling like they're out of the loop or not plugged into what's happening, so it just comes back to over-communication, over-documenting, just doing a great job of bringing the team together. [00:36:56]Matt H.: Yeah, and I think one of the things that you mentioned before that's super important is to try to make sure that you're getting the conversational interactions that aren't necessarily related to work and just making sure that you have that as a priority, your people and you work at a company and just to make sure that that's a priority. Because I think that kind of gets lost a little bit sometimes when you're only communicating about work related things. A lot of that stuff can get forgotten about, which I think is important. [00:37:25]Zack Onisko: Yeah, I mean, culturally for us, we try to prioritize fun. We try to prioritize a sense of humor and just keep work as light as possible. We have Chloe who heads up our people ops. She runs virtual happy hours, virtual book clubs, virtual movie clubs, virtual book exchanges. So we try to do a lot of fun stuff. We do remote gaming. [00:37:52]Matt H.: Oh really? Nice. [00:37:53]Zack Onisko: Role playing games, so yeah, there's just different ways that we try to connect and have fun. We're not over Zoom and video chat. Then that kind of fills the blanks before we get to see each other in person twice a year for Hang Time. That work is really kind of laptops down. We just spend a week just hanging out and eating and drinking, going to museums together, that sort of thing. [00:38:18]Matt H.: Nice. I can attest to the Dribbble team's use of emojis and things like that. Over Slack, you guys are real experts there, so kudos to you. [00:38:29]Zack Onisko: Thank you, thank you. [00:38:29]Matt H.: So I want to be cognizant of your time, Zack, and I really appreciate you being here with us today. I have a couple more closing questions for you. You kind of touched on one of them, but what is your favorite tool that you use for remote work, and you can take it in any direction you want to. [00:38:47]Zack Onisko: It's emoji, definitely. [00:38:49]Matt H.: Of course, that's right. I knew the answer already. [00:38:52]Zack Onisko: No, I mean, we're really big into Slack and Zoom, of course, but we use Bonusly, which is a plugin for Slack. We award each other points that can then be cashed out. Dribbbpoints, all one word. Three Bs. They can be cashed out for various things, whether it's Amazon gift cards or if you want to actually donate your points to charities. So the team really enjoys that. It's a lot of fun. We use a daily standup plugin for Slack that I am spacing on the name of right now. Is there a robot in it? Anyway- [00:39:32]Matt H.: Yeah, I think I know what you're talking about. [00:39:33]Zack Onisko: I'm drawing a blank, yeah. Sorry. But yeah, so we look at things like that just helps automate a lot of processes and make work a little more fun. [00:39:43]Matt H.: Nice. So my last question here for you is not related to work. What is your favorite unplugged activity? [00:39:52]Zack Onisko: Well, I do have some acoustics, but most of the time I plug in. [00:39:56]Matt H.: Oh yeah. [00:39:57]Zack Onisko: I like to turn up my amp here in my office and piss off my neighbors at least once a day. I don't play any bands anymore, but just kind of fiddling around helps release a lot of tension and helps me relax. [00:40:11]Matt H.: For sure. [00:40:11]Zack Onisko: Outside of that, it's just really just dad mode, taking the kids to soccer or ballet or whatever is super rewarding for me. [00:40:18]Matt H.: Nice. Well Zack, I really appreciate this. This is, I think, a pretty successful first recording of the show, so thank you so much for being here and we really appreciate it. [00:40:26]Zack Onisko: Yeah, thanks for having me. [00:40:31]Matt H.: Thanks. [00:40:31] Thank you so much for listening to the show today. Check out weworkremotely.com for the newest career opportunities and so you can start your remote work journey. We're looking for guests on the show, so if you have someone in mind you think we should talk to, please send us an email at podcast@weworkremotely.com. That's podcast@weworkremotely.com. Also if you have any tips and feedback, we welcome that as well. Just be nice, because this is my first time, so go easy. [00:40:59] Also make sure to follow us on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn as well, and thanks again for listening.

Show Notes Kamino (http://kamino.si/) Dan Cederholm (https://twitter.com/simplebits) Lavaredo Ultra Trail (https://ultratrail.it/) Joren De Groof (https://www.parallelpassion.com/21) Z Wallet (http://zanilic.com/slim-wooden-wallet) CNC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_control) Simon Belak (https://www.parallelpassion.com/22) Stoicism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism) Gary Vaynerchuk (https://twitter.com/garyvee) Hustle Porn (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hustle%20porn) Steve Jobs' 2005 Stanford Commencement Address (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc) Common sense is not common (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Common_sense_is_not_common) Recommendations Physical movement (running, moving around) Alan Watts - Out of Your Mind (https://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0285644084/parpaspod-20) The Internet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet) Žan Ilić Twitter (https://twitter.com/zanilic) Dribble (https://dribbble.com/zanilic) Personal Page (http://zanilic.com/) Parallel Passion Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/parpaspod) Twitter (https://www.twitter.com/parpaspod) Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/parpaspod) Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/parpaspod) Credits Alex Bierwagen (https://unsplash.com/@ajb) for the header photo Tina Tavčar (https://twitter.com/tinatavcar) for Parallel Passion logo Jan Jenko (https://twitter.com/JanJenko) for intro/outro music

Episode 41 features Swissmiss, AKA Tina Roth Eisenberg. Tina is quite a powerhouse and is a super creative person who loves taking side projects and turning them into real companies that make a big impact in the design world. In the episode, Dan and Tina chat about finding your people, confidence vs enthusiasm, and injecting joy into your work. Tina also shares what makes Creative Mornings so magical and details about her new venture, The Creative Guild. "The one thing I’ve learned is that a community is not a community until it self-organizes. [...] Giving people the power and also reminding them of their responsibility to speak up when they see something that’s not right, really I feel like is the magic sauce for this." This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Links mentioned in Overtime: Swissmiss Tina on Twitter Creative Mornings The Deck Network Tattly The Creative Guild The Do Lectures Studiomates Friends Work Here TeuxDeux How I Built This Hang Time Los Angeles Transcript and more at Dribbble.com/Overtime.

Episode 41 features Swissmiss, AKA Tina Roth Eisenberg. Tina is quite a powerhouse and is a super creative person who loves taking side projects and turning them into real companies that make a big impact in the design world. In the episode, Dan and Tina chat about finding your people, confidence vs enthusiasm, and injecting joy into your work. Tina also shares what makes Creative Mornings so magical and details about her new venture, The Creative Guild. "The one thing I’ve learned is that a community is not a community until it self-organizes. [...] Giving people the power and also reminding them of their responsibility to speak up when they see something that’s not right, really I feel like is the magic sauce for this." This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Links mentioned in Overtime: Swissmiss Tina on Twitter Creative Mornings The Deck Network Tattly The Creative Guild The Do Lectures Studiomates Friends Work Here TeuxDeux How I Built This Hang Time Los Angeles Transcript and more at Dribbble.com/Overtime.

Episode 40 features Alana Louise, an independent designer living in Austin, TX. She’s worked with incredible companies like Yeti, United by Blue, Austin Beerworks, and others. When Alana Louise is not designing, she’s on the river fly fishing. In this episode, she tells us how sharing her passion for fishing on Instagram helped her land her dream clients. Dan and Alana Louise also cover design systems and how they’re applied to packaging and what it’s like to be part of the local design scene in Austin. She also shares her thoughts on seeking citizenship in the US. "Because on my Instagram, I post pictures of whatever hike I did or whatever fish I caught, that attracts a certain group of followers. Then when they discover that I'm a designer, I think that's when that type of work comes in. Right now I'm working on a project with two outdoor companies that are collaborating on public land use. Which I'm a complete supporter for because the water I fish in is public and I would love it to stay that way." Alana Louise on Dribbble Alana Louise on Twitter Alana Louise on Instagram Drew Lakin Austin Beerworks Bethany Heck Alana Louise's Fishing Instagram Pedernales Falls State Park Shea McClanahan Wicked Tuna Fort Lonesome Yeti Presents: My Mom Vala Helms Workshop Bionic Brew Bridgeport Brewing Austin Beerworks La Verdad False Cast Shop Retro Supply Creative Works Conference Transcript for this episode and more at https://dribbble.com/overtime.

Episode 40 features Alana Louise, an independent designer living in Austin, TX. She’s worked with incredible companies like Yeti, United by Blue, Austin Beerworks, and others. When Alana Louise is not designing, she’s on the river fly fishing. In this episode, she tells us how sharing her passion for fishing on Instagram helped her land her dream clients. Dan and Alana Louise also cover design systems and how they’re applied to packaging and what it’s like to be part of the local design scene in Austin. She also shares her thoughts on seeking citizenship in the US. "Because on my Instagram, I post pictures of whatever hike I did or whatever fish I caught, that attracts a certain group of followers. Then when they discover that I'm a designer, I think that's when that type of work comes in. Right now I'm working on a project with two outdoor companies that are collaborating on public land use. Which I'm a complete supporter for because the water I fish in is public and I would love it to stay that way." Alana Louise on Dribbble Alana Louise on Twitter Alana Louise on Instagram Drew Lakin Austin Beerworks Bethany Heck Alana Louise's Fishing Instagram Pedernales Falls State Park Shea McClanahan Wicked Tuna Fort Lonesome Yeti Presents: My Mom Vala Helms Workshop Bionic Brew Bridgeport Brewing Austin Beerworks La Verdad False Cast Shop Retro Supply Creative Works Conference Transcript for this episode and more at https://dribbble.com/overtime.

Episode 39 features Tim Allen, Partner at Microsoft. Before joining Microsoft, Tim worked with a number of incredible companies including Adobe, RGA, Nike, Amazon, and others. He now leads Microsoft's Fluent Design System and Inclusive Design teams. Tim has honed his design and leadership skills from a young age, since starting his own airbrushing business while in high school! In this episode Dan and Tim do a deep dive on what it's like to be a designer at Microsoft and how the Fluent Design and Inclusive Design programs are changing the design landscape. Tim also shares how Inclusive Design not only helps the underrepresented folks they're designing for, but benefits everyone. Tim Allen Tim on Twitter Hang Time Seattle Claudio Guglieri Albert Shum Microsoft Design Microsoft’s Inclusive Design Microsoft's Fluent Design System Xbox Adaptive Controller Microsoft on Dribbble @MicrosoftDesign on Twitter OneNote You can find full episode transcripts and more at dribbble.com/overtime.

Episode 39 features Tim Allen, Partner at Microsoft. Before joining Microsoft, Tim worked with a number of incredible companies including Adobe, RGA, Nike, Amazon, and others. He now leads Microsoft's Fluent Design System and Inclusive Design teams. Tim has honed his design and leadership skills from a young age, since starting his own airbrushing business while in high school! In this episode Dan and Tim do a deep dive on what it's like to be a designer at Microsoft and how the Fluent Design and Inclusive Design programs are changing the design landscape. Tim also shares how Inclusive Design not only helps the underrepresented folks they're designing for, but benefits everyone. Tim Allen Tim on Twitter Hang Time Seattle Claudio Guglieri Albert Shum Microsoft Design Microsoft’s Inclusive Design Microsoft's Fluent Design System Xbox Adaptive Controller Microsoft on Dribbble @MicrosoftDesign on Twitter OneNote You can find full episode transcripts and more at dribbble.com/overtime.

Our guest on episode 38 is Haraldur Thorleifsson, founder and CEO of Ueno—a global design agency that works with incredible clients like Google, Fitbit, Dropbox, Slack, ESPN, and more. In this episode, Dan and Halli chat about the role Dribbble played in building his agency, the importance of having a portfolio and building relationships, the challenges of running a design agency, and why designers should be avoiding trends. They also explore how travel helped Halli shape the company Ueno is today. This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Links Mentioned in Overtime Haraldur on Dribbble Haraldur on Twitter Ueno Ueno on Dribbble Ueno on Twitter Cuban Council K10K Upperquad Ueno's Culture Values Halli's first shot: World map - 84.345 beads You can find transcripts and more episodes at Dribbble.com/Overtime.

Our guest on episode 38 is Haraldur Thorleifsson, founder and CEO of Ueno—a global design agency that works with incredible clients like Google, Fitbit, Dropbox, Slack, ESPN, and more. In this episode, Dan and Halli chat about the role Dribbble played in building his agency, the importance of having a portfolio and building relationships, the challenges of running a design agency, and why designers should be avoiding trends. They also explore how travel helped Halli shape the company Ueno is today. This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Links Mentioned in Overtime Haraldur on Dribbble Haraldur on Twitter Ueno Ueno on Dribbble Ueno on Twitter Cuban Council K10K Upperquad Ueno's Culture Values Halli's first shot: World map - 84.345 beads You can find transcripts and more episodes at Dribbble.com/Overtime.

Today we're bringing you a very special episode of Overtime. Episode 37 was recorded at Hang Time Seattle in front of our live audience. Dan Cederholm shared the stage with three Pacific Northwest creatives: Sasha Barr, Dina Rodriguez, and Victor Melendez. They have a great conversation about cultivating a personal brand, freelancing vs fulltime, and the stories behind their shops. They also share their big goals and their mutual love for watching tv and drawing. Links Mentioned in Hang Time Sasha Barr Sasha on Dribbble Sub Pop Records The Grammys 2018 best album design award ends in a tie Dina Rodriguez Dina on Dribbble Letting Adventures Women of Illustration Victor Melendez Victor on Dribbble Victor's Shop Pablo Stanley on Overtime A Day of Dribbble and Design: Hang Time Seattle is a Wrap! You can read the transcript for the episode at https://dribbble.com/overtime/.

Today we're bringing you a very special episode of Overtime. Episode 37 was recorded at Hang Time Seattle in front of our live audience. Dan Cederholm shared the stage with three Pacific Northwest creatives: Sasha Barr, Dina Rodriguez, and Victor Melendez. They have a great conversation about cultivating a personal brand, freelancing vs fulltime, and the stories behind their shops. They also share their big goals and their mutual love for watching tv and drawing. Links Mentioned in Hang Time Sasha Barr Sasha on Dribbble Sub Pop Records The Grammys 2018 best album design award ends in a tie Dina Rodriguez Dina on Dribbble Letting Adventures Women of Illustration Victor Melendez Victor on Dribbble Victor's Shop Pablo Stanley on Overtime A Day of Dribbble and Design: Hang Time Seattle is a Wrap! You can read the transcript for the episode at https://dribbble.com/overtime/.

Episode 36 of Overtime features one of the most influential graphic designers in the world—Paula Scher. In this episode, Dan and Paula discuss her early work at CBS Records, the joy of typographic expression, and creating opportunities for yourself. They also go behind the scenes of her vast collection of work including the stories behind identities for The Public Theater, Microsoft Windows 8, and more. Links Mentioned in Overtime: Paula Scher Pentagram on Twitter Pentagram on Instagram See Paula Scher's Classic Album Covers Featured on Spanish Vogue Press Victor Moscoso Terry Koppel of Koppel and Scher MAPS Microsoft Windows 8 Transcript coming soon.

Episode 36 of Overtime features one of the most influential graphic designers in the world—Paula Scher. In this episode, Dan and Paula discuss her early work at CBS Records, the joy of typographic expression, and creating opportunities for yourself. They also go behind the scenes of her vast collection of work including the stories behind identities for The Public Theater, Microsoft Windows 8, and more. Links Mentioned in Overtime: Paula Scher Pentagram on Twitter Pentagram on Instagram See Paula Scher's Classic Album Covers Featured on Spanish Vogue Press Victor Moscoso Terry Koppel of Koppel and Scher MAPS Microsoft Windows 8 Transcript coming soon.

Episode 35 features Josh and Katie Emrich of Emrich Office. This husband and wife team live in Indianapolis and are running an incredible design studio while raising four kids. They do amazing identity branding work for clients like Bottle Logic, Keymaster Games, Turner Dairy, and more. Warning: this episode is going to make you want to buy a bottle of milk (even if you don't drink milk), just because of the branding. In this episode, Josh and Katie share what it’s like to start your own business to spend more time with family, what fuels their passion for working with family brands, and the importance of cultivating relationships with clients. Links Mentioned in Overtime Emrich Office Emrich Office on Dribbble Josh on Twitter Katie on Twitter Emrich Office on Instagram Campy Creatures Keymaster Games Bottle Logic Turner's Brand Identity System Turner Dairy Caper Board Game

Episode 35 features Josh and Katie Emrich of Emrich Office. This husband and wife team live in Indianapolis and are running an incredible design studio while raising four kids. They do amazing identity branding work for clients like Bottle Logic, Keymaster Games, Turner Dairy, and more. Warning: this episode is going to make you want to buy a bottle of milk (even if you don't drink milk), just because of the branding. In this episode, Josh and Katie share what it’s like to start your own business to spend more time with family, what fuels their passion for working with family brands, and the importance of cultivating relationships with clients. Links Mentioned in Overtime Emrich Office Emrich Office on Dribbble Josh on Twitter Katie on Twitter Emrich Office on Instagram Campy Creatures Keymaster Games Bottle Logic Turner's Brand Identity System Turner Dairy Caper Board Game

Episode 34 features Pablo Stanley—lead designer and co-founder of Carbon Health, mentor at Sketch Together, cohost of the Diseño Cha Cha Cha podcast, and writer of The Design Team. In this episode, Dan and Pablo talk about how to be a good team member, the value of soft skills, how teaching will help you learn, and why it's important to learn to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. Pablo shares the challenges he faced in his path to becoming a designer, why he started his podcast, why the things you think are holding you back might actually be your superpowers, and more. This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Subscribe to Overtime on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Links Mentioned in Overtime: Pablo Stanley Pablo on Dribbble Pablo on Twitter Sketch Together TV (Pablo's Youtube Channel) Carbon Health Diseño Cha Cha Chá Podcast The Design Team How to Efficiently Design Everything at the Last Minute Hang Time Seattle

Episode 34 features Pablo Stanley—lead designer and co-founder of Carbon Health, mentor at Sketch Together, cohost of the Diseño Cha Cha Cha podcast, and writer of The Design Team. In this episode, Dan and Pablo talk about how to be a good team member, the value of soft skills, how teaching will help you learn, and why it's important to learn to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. Pablo shares the challenges he faced in his path to becoming a designer, why he started his podcast, why the things you think are holding you back might actually be your superpowers, and more. This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Subscribe to Overtime on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Links Mentioned in Overtime: Pablo Stanley Pablo on Dribbble Pablo on Twitter Sketch Together TV (Pablo's Youtube Channel) Carbon Health Diseño Cha Cha Chá Podcast The Design Team How to Efficiently Design Everything at the Last Minute Hang Time Seattle

Episode 33 features our very own Zack Onisko—Dribbble’s CEO. Before taking the helm at Dribbble, Zack began his career nearly 20 years ago as a web designer before shifting into business and executive roles at Autodesk, Creative Market, Hired.com, BranchOut, Monster.com, and Tickle.com. In the episode, Dan and Zack chat about finding design through music, Zack’s early career growing startups, his experience building another design community at Creative Market, and a few secrets to success when it comes to growth marketing. Dan and Zack also do a dive deep into Dribbble’s growth in the past year—including how we add value back into the community, our remote culture, and what’s coming up next for Dribbble. Spoiler alert: think bigger shots and video support! This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Subscribe to Overtime on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Or download the episode via Simplecast. Links Mentioned in Overtime: Zack Onisko Zack on Dribbble Zack on Twitter Zack on Medium True story, Zack’s in this Papa Roach video Creative Market No Office Workstyle by Matt Mullenweg Dribbble Careers Crew Official Dribbble Android App… Soon Hang Time Seattle Transcript: Visit Dribbble.com/Overtime for this episode's transcript.

Episode 33 features our very own Zack Onisko—Dribbble’s CEO. Before taking the helm at Dribbble, Zack began his career nearly 20 years ago as a web designer before shifting into business and executive roles at Autodesk, Creative Market, Hired.com, BranchOut, Monster.com, and Tickle.com. In the episode, Dan and Zack chat about finding design through music, Zack’s early career growing startups, his experience building another design community at Creative Market, and a few secrets to success when it comes to growth marketing. Dan and Zack also do a dive deep into Dribbble’s growth in the past year—including how we add value back into the community, our remote culture, and what’s coming up next for Dribbble. Spoiler alert: think bigger shots and video support! This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Subscribe to Overtime on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Or download the episode via Simplecast. Links Mentioned in Overtime: Zack Onisko Zack on Dribbble Zack on Twitter Zack on Medium True story, Zack’s in this Papa Roach video Creative Market No Office Workstyle by Matt Mullenweg Dribbble Careers Crew Official Dribbble Android App… Soon Hang Time Seattle Transcript: Visit Dribbble.com/Overtime for this episode's transcript.

Dan Cederholm, co-founder of Dribbble, the social platform where you can show, discover, and explore design, joins us to chat about how Dribbble started, what Dan's learned along the way, and our latest collaboration, the Show & Tell notebook.Check out Show & Tell at baronfig.comSay hello to Dan on Twitter via @simplebitsView Dan's Dribbble work via dribbble.com/simplebitsAbout EurekaThinker Talk is where we chat with people turning ideas into reality. Hosted by Joey Cofone, co-founder of Baronfig in New York City.More at eureka.baronfig.comEdited and mixed by Fina Charleson

Episode 32 features Lauren Dickens—an amazingly creative designer who specializes in brand identity and art direction. She's has worked with some incredible clients including Target, Facebook, SXSW, and The Line Hotel. Lauren lives in Austin, Texas and has certainly left her mark around town—working with popular Austin establishments like Native Boutique Hostels, Better Half Coffee & Cocktails, STAG Provisions, and many others. In this episode, Dan and Lauren nerd out over typography, letterpress, process, and merch of all forms. Additionally, Lauren shares how important it is to her to work on personal projects and to have a sense of humor in her work. This episode even gets a little cosmic, so meet Dan and Lauren on the astral plane! This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Subscribe to Overtime on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Links Mentioned in Overtime: Lauren Dickens Lauren Dickens on Dribbble Lauren Dickens on Twitter Lauren Dickens on Instagram STAG Provisions Daughters Rob Roy Kelly Type Collection Awful Goods Shin Killer for Project Loop Circle Jerk Boys Club Women's March Poster Dunce Cap Gay Ambassador Patch Astral Patch Better Half Hang Time Seattle If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a review in Apple Podcasts. Thanks! Transcript available at Dribbble.com/Overtime.

Episode 32 features Lauren Dickens—an amazingly creative designer who specializes in brand identity and art direction. She's has worked with some incredible clients including Target, Facebook, SXSW, and The Line Hotel. Lauren lives in Austin, Texas and has certainly left her mark around town—working with popular Austin establishments like Native Boutique Hostels, Better Half Coffee & Cocktails, STAG Provisions, and many others. In this episode, Dan and Lauren nerd out over typography, letterpress, process, and merch of all forms. Additionally, Lauren shares how important it is to her to work on personal projects and to have a sense of humor in her work. This episode even gets a little cosmic, so meet Dan and Lauren on the astral plane! This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Subscribe to Overtime on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Links Mentioned in Overtime: Lauren Dickens Lauren Dickens on Dribbble Lauren Dickens on Twitter Lauren Dickens on Instagram STAG Provisions Daughters Rob Roy Kelly Type Collection Awful Goods Shin Killer for Project Loop Circle Jerk Boys Club Women's March Poster Dunce Cap Gay Ambassador Patch Astral Patch Better Half Hang Time Seattle If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a review in Apple Podcasts. Thanks! Transcript available at Dribbble.com/Overtime.

Gerren Lamson is an Austin-based designer and the co-owner and Chief Design Officer at Creative Market. In this episode, we explore how Gerren got started in design, the value in teaching yourself new skills, the differences in working agency vs. product, and how to transition from making to managing. Dan and Gerren also chat about what Creative Market and Dribbble have in common, community and company culture, and his team’s newest product, Creative Market Pro. “Design and creativity, but design, in particular, has been continually decentralized and democratized and more and more people are being brought into the fold at a certain level of design thinking and execution, even if it’s not their formal day job. We’re having to look at that and find those people to talk to, to see how we can help them and serve their needs too, and it’s really exciting to be a part of that whole movement.” This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Subscribe to Overtime on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Or download the episode via Simplecast.

Gerren Lamson is an Austin-based designer and the co-owner and Chief Design Officer at Creative Market. In this episode, we explore how Gerren got started in design, the value in teaching yourself new skills, the differences in working agency vs. product, and how to transition from making to managing. Dan and Gerren also chat about what Creative Market and Dribbble have in common, community and company culture, and his team’s newest product, Creative Market Pro. “Design and creativity, but design, in particular, has been continually decentralized and democratized and more and more people are being brought into the fold at a certain level of design thinking and execution, even if it’s not their formal day job. We’re having to look at that and find those people to talk to, to see how we can help them and serve their needs too, and it’s really exciting to be a part of that whole movement.” This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Subscribe to Overtime on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Or download the episode via Simplecast.

We’re super excited to have Jim Coudal on Overtime. Jim is the founder of Coudal Partners, a design and interactive studio in Chicago. So many amazing projects have sprung out of Coudal Partners including The Deck Network, Layer Tennis, and Field Notes. In this episode, Jim shares solid advice on sharing what you love with others, how to remain genuine while running a business, and knowing when it's time to let a project go. Jim also teases the next big project from Field Notes! “Try stuff out. If it’s a moderate success—try figure out how to make it a bigger success. If you can’t figure out how to make it bigger, then go on to the next idea.” This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Links Mentioned in Overtime: Jim Coudal Jim Coudal on Twitter Layer Tennis Field Notes Brand Aaron Draplin The Deck Copy Goes Here Sean Inman Layer Tennis K10K Dribbble's Hang Time Seattle Transcript: Please visit Dribbble.com/Overtime. Thanks for listening! Please subscribe to and rate the show in Apple Podcasts, and share this episode with a friend.

We’re super excited to have Jim Coudal on Overtime. Jim is the founder of Coudal Partners, a design and interactive studio in Chicago. So many amazing projects have sprung out of Coudal Partners including The Deck Network, Layer Tennis, and Field Notes. In this episode, Jim shares solid advice on sharing what you love with others, how to remain genuine while running a business, and knowing when it's time to let a project go. Jim also teases the next big project from Field Notes! “Try stuff out. If it’s a moderate success—try figure out how to make it a bigger success. If you can’t figure out how to make it bigger, then go on to the next idea.” This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Links Mentioned in Overtime: Jim Coudal Jim Coudal on Twitter Layer Tennis Field Notes Brand Aaron Draplin The Deck Copy Goes Here Sean Inman Layer Tennis K10K Dribbble's Hang Time Seattle Transcript: Please visit Dribbble.com/Overtime. Thanks for listening! Please subscribe to and rate the show in Apple Podcasts, and share this episode with a friend.

Debbie Millman has worked with some of the world's biggest brands including Burger King, Hershey’s, Haagen-Dazs, Twizzlers—just to name a few. She's written six books, is a frequent keynote speaker on design and branding, and she hosts the first and longest running podcast about design, Design Matters. In this episode, we discuss the drawing that started it all, why rejection can be worse than failure, how Design Matters got started, and why persistence is the key to success. “I don't think it's possible to make a name for yourself doing work for other people. I think that the way you make a name for yourself is doing original work on your own. Which doesn't mean you have to quit your job to do it. I was doing Design Matters while I had two full-time jobs.” This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Links Mentioned in Overtime: Debbie Millman Debbie Millman on Facebook Debbie Millman on Twitter Debbie Millman on Instagram Design Matters The Actors Studio Sterling Brands Dribbble's Hang Time Seattle Thanks for listening! Please subscribe to the show in Apple Podcasts and share this episode with a friend. Transcript: Visit Dribbble.com/Overtime.

Debbie Millman has worked with some of the world's biggest brands including Burger King, Hershey’s, Haagen-Dazs, Twizzlers—just to name a few. She's written six books, is a frequent keynote speaker on design and branding, and she hosts the first and longest running podcast about design, Design Matters. In this episode, we discuss the drawing that started it all, why rejection can be worse than failure, how Design Matters got started, and why persistence is the key to success. “I don't think it's possible to make a name for yourself doing work for other people. I think that the way you make a name for yourself is doing original work on your own. Which doesn't mean you have to quit your job to do it. I was doing Design Matters while I had two full-time jobs.” This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Links Mentioned in Overtime: Debbie Millman Debbie Millman on Facebook Debbie Millman on Twitter Debbie Millman on Instagram Design Matters The Actors Studio Sterling Brands Dribbble's Hang Time Seattle Thanks for listening! Please subscribe to the show in Apple Podcasts and share this episode with a friend. Transcript: Visit Dribbble.com/Overtime.

Season 3 of Overtime is here! Our first guest is Andy J. (Pizza) Miller. Andy is the creator of the podcast and book Creative Pep Talk. He also has a successful illustration career and has created illustrations for clients like Nickelodeon, Google, Converse, Sony, Smart Car, Oreo, The Boston Globe & Nutella. In this episode, we find out what pizza and Dribbble have in common, how Andy transitioned from illustration to podcasting, and the secret to Creative Pep Talk’s success. Andy also shares how to “find your gift,” what he thinks all creative people have in common, how to embrace change when it comes to your career, his hope for the creative future, and much more. “I always tell people to look for wilderness instead of paved roads. Once there’s 8,000 tutorials and 50 apps to make that thing the easiest thing possible, the treasure at the end of that road is gone.” This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Links Mentioned in Overtime Andy J. Miller Andy J. Miller on Dribbble Andy J. Miller on Twitter Andy J. Miller on Instagram Creative Pep Talk The Dip by Seth Godin Mindset by Carol Deweyck Transcript Transcript forthcoming.

Season 3 of Overtime is here! Our first guest is Andy J. (Pizza) Miller. Andy is the creator of the podcast and book Creative Pep Talk. He also has a successful illustration career and has created illustrations for clients like Nickelodeon, Google, Converse, Sony, Smart Car, Oreo, The Boston Globe & Nutella. In this episode, we find out what pizza and Dribbble have in common, how Andy transitioned from illustration to podcasting, and the secret to Creative Pep Talk’s success. Andy also shares how to “find your gift,” what he thinks all creative people have in common, how to embrace change when it comes to your career, his hope for the creative future, and much more. “I always tell people to look for wilderness instead of paved roads. Once there’s 8,000 tutorials and 50 apps to make that thing the easiest thing possible, the treasure at the end of that road is gone.” This episode is brought to you by Wix. Push the limits of design and start creating beautiful, impactful websites that are uniquely yours at wix.com/dribbble. Links Mentioned in Overtime Andy J. Miller Andy J. Miller on Dribbble Andy J. Miller on Twitter Andy J. Miller on Instagram Creative Pep Talk The Dip by Seth Godin Mindset by Carol Deweyck Transcript Transcript forthcoming.

It's our final episode of Overtime, season 2! We'll be back in 2018 but before then, we'd love to hear from you. If you're an avid Overtime listener, please take a short survey to let us know what you love about Overtime and what we can improve on. Additionally, we’re experimenting with our format, so you’ll see chapters in this episode if you're listening in a podcast app that supports chapters (like Overcast). And now on to episode 27! In this episode, we chat with Ryan Hamrick, an independent letterer and designer, living in Austin, TX. Ryan shares how he got started with lettering back in 2011, the story behind the Curves Ahead Tour, a few lettering tricks he saves for live workshops, why he's starting an artist representation agency, and more. This week’s episode is brought to you by Wix. Wix believes the web is your playground. With advanced features like retina-ready image galleries, custom font sets, and sophisticated design effects, you’ll have real creative freedom to tell your story online—exactly the way you’ve envisioned it. Go to wix.com/dribbble to get started today. Links Mentioned in Overtime Overtime Survey Ryan's website Ryan on Dribbble Ryan on Twitter Ryan on Instagram Constitutional Cartouches Simon Ålander on Dribbble Sergey Shapiro on Dribbble Curves Ahead Tour Staedtler Lead Holder Staedtler Mars Rotary Action Lead Pointer and Tub Staedtler Mars Carbon Lead The Alfa Set

Author (“Sass For Web Designers”), designer, and Dribbble co-founder Dan Cederholm (@simplebits) sits down with Jeffrey Zeldman to discuss using tools and templates versus rolling your own design and code, whether web design was really simpler in the good old days, his favorite Dribbble features, community-building, empire-building, freelancing in the early days of Happy Cog, and the joys of the fretless banjo. Links for this episode:SimpleBitsDribbble - Show and tell for designersA Book Apart, Sass for Web DesignersSimple Books – SimpleBitsDan Cederholm on The Great Discontent (TGD)Hello. – SimpleBitsSponsored by Thinkful (Visit the link to get 10% off) and Flywheel (Visit the link and use the code BIGWEBSHOW for 20% off).

Jeffrey Zeldman and Dribbble co-founder Dan Cederholm discuss fear of CSS pre-processors, growing the Dribbble design community, the craft of code, and Dan's new book, Sass For Web Designers.

Jeffrey talks with designer, developer, author, lecturer, and entrepreneur Dan Cederholm (Dribbble, Simplebits). Links for this episode:http://aneventapart.com/speakers/dan-cederholmhttp://aneventapart.com/news/post/video-dan-cederholmhttp://www.abookapart.com/products/css3-for-web-designershttp://simplebits.com/publications/bulletproof/http://www.amazon.com/Handcrafted-CSS-More-Bulletproof-Design/dp/0321643380/http://astore.amazon.com/simplebits-20/detail/1590593812https://twitter.com/simplebitsSponsored by Lynda.

Dan is a designer, author, speaker, husband, and father living in Salem, Massachusetts. He is the Founder and Principal of SimpleBits, LLC, a tiny web design studio, and co-founder and designer of Dribbble, a vibrant community for sharing screenshots of your work. Dan is a recognized expert in the field of standards-based web design and has worked with YouTube, Microsoft, Google, MTV, ESPN, and others. He has authored four books including “CSS3 For Web Designers”, “Handcrafted CSS”, “Bulletproof Web Design”, and “Web Standards Solutions”. In early 2012, he received a TechFellow award for Product Design & Marketing. Dan enjoys sharing his simplistic approach to web design while spreading the word on the standards-based markup and style techniques he's collected by speaking at conferences and events around the globe.

Dan Cederholm joins Jeffrey Zeldman and Dan Benjamin to discuss Dribbble, a vibrant design community for sharing screenshots of your work, Cork'd, the first social network for wine aficionados, his design style, inspiration, and more. A world-renowned web designer, author, speaker, and a giant in the field of CSS-based design, Dan is the founding principal of SimpleBits, a tiny creative studio (“We make websites and products”) based in Salem, Massachusetts. Links for this episode:Dan Cederholm (simplebits) on TwitterDribbble - What are you working on?Cork'd ContentSimpleBitsHANDCRAFTED CSS by Dan Cederholm with Ethan MarcotteSimpleBits ~ Bulletproof Web DesignRich ThornettRich Thornett on Twitter