Can This Work In A Small Church?

Eric Hoke is known as the “I Help Pastors Get Jobs” Guy.Karl Vaters talks with Eric about how to build long-term sustainable ministry, reduce financial stress, and create value in the marketplace by becoming an intentionally covocational pastor.Eric's new book, Market Street Pastor: Ministry Sustainability without Money Stress, addresses many of the issues involved in making the shift toward covocational ministry.This conversation covers the subjects of:The mindset shift that most pastors must take to start down this roadThe value pastors bring to the marketplaceFinding your marketable skills through using the Heart- Head-Hands-Feet methodHow to get through the clutter of thousands of job applicantsHow to present yourself and your skillsAnd so much more Links from this episode:Market Street Pastor: Ministry Sustainability without Money StressIHelpPastorsGetJobs.comDaily Examen App: "Reimagining the Examen" for iphone and androidBonus ContentHow to Build a LinkedIn Profile that Will Get Job Leads, with Eric HokeLinkedIn remains a primary online site for those seeking employment, and it's especially helpful for pastors seeking covocational employment.In this very practical conversation, Eric Hoke talks with Karl Vaters about some common mistakes to avoid and opportunities to take advantage of that will get you noticed—and get the side hustle job that suits your skills and needs.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

For Episode 100, Karl Vaters has a very special conversation with his father, Albert Vaters, about the pastor's relationship with God's Word, the Bible.In addition to each of them spending 40 years as pastors (over 80 years of combined pastoral ministry!), they were also both raised as preacher's kids, so they can speak from multiple perspectives about life in a pastor's home.In this conversation, Karl and Albert talk about:What it was like to be raised with a positive experience in a pastor's homeHow to give the Bible a central place in our homesThe importance of living what you're preachingHow to approach the Bible correctly as a pastor and a parentAnd moreLinks:John Lennox: God Does ExistJohn Lennox: The Bible and age of the earth?John Lennox: Why I am a Christian and a scientist

Karl Vaters talks with Russ Taff. One of the great voices of Contemporary Christian Music (CCM) in the 1970s-90s, Russ won five Grammys, 13 Dove Awards, and was inducted into the Gospel Music Hall of Fame three times (with the Imperials, the Gaither Vocal Band, and as a solo artist).He also spent decades struggling with alcoholism, church hurt, and shame, stemming from the severe trauma he experienced in the pastor's house of his childhood.This interview is raw. It's real, and it's very emotional.In addition to talking through his testimony at length, Karl and Russ also take a song-by-song walk through his newest album, which is a journey through his story of pain, trauma, lament, and redemption.Links:Cover Story (The album)RussTaff.comBecome a Financial PartnerSubscribe to Karl's free weekly newsletter

Alberto Bello is a church planter in Bakersfield CA, and he's written one of those books everyone says they could write, Ten Things They Didn't Tell Me About Leadership.Karl Vaters talks with Alberto about that book, the experiences that led to it, and the lessons to be learned from it.Including:Knowing who you are in JesusThe Comparison TrapHow failure is necessary for successHow not to be people-pleasing leaderAnd more Links:Ten Things They Didn't Tell Me About Leadership

Mike Rubino is a pastor in the unique ministry environment of Long Island NY. He's also the founder and director of Church Revitalize, which helps churches that need to revitalize their ministry, through cohorts, coaching, and more.Karl Vaters talks with Mike about church revitalization, with a focus on Mike's new workbook, The Revitalize Roadmap: Getting Your Church on the Road to Greater Health.Subjects include:The difference between church growth and church revitalizationThe importance of pastoral health and renewalHow to understand and fix your church's blind spotsIdentifying your church's God-given Geographic ResponsibilityAnd more Links:Church RevitalizeThe Revitalize Roadmap: Getting Your Church on the Road to Greater HealthBeTheChurch.orgBook - Crucial Conversations

Every church should be open to everyone who wants to attend. So, we need to be more purposeful about making sure we're not unintentionally denying access without realizing it.Barbara Stanley oversees Wonderful Works Ministry, which equips churches to serve families affected by disability. They have a large and growing set of resources to help churches of all types.Karl Vaters talks with Barb about a variety of subjects, including:Why disability inclusion mattersHow to come alongside families who are affected by disabilityHow every church can take some simple first steps toward disability inclusionHow to deal with some of the changing language around disability Links:Wonderful Works MinistryPodcast: Wonderful Works TalksThere is no bonus material for this episode.

A clergy sabbatical is not a luxury for the few, it's an essential element in recalibrating your ministry and reestablishing healthy habits for ministry longevity.Sabbaticals are having a moment right now. With the accelerated pace of life and ministry, we're recognizing their value in a fresh, new way.Sean Nemecek and the team at Pastor In Residence Ministries have been working with pastors for years, helping them get the most out of a sabbatical. And now they've put it all in one place with the Clergy Sabbatical Toolkit,, a practical guide that will help pastors, their congregations, and their families.Karl Vaters talkes with Sean talk about the aspects of an effective sabbatical, including:What is a sabbatical?Why is a sabbatical important for pastors?What's the ideal sabbatical length?Dealing with common objections to taking a sabbaticalFinancial considerationsAnd moreLinks:Clergy Sabbatical Toolkit,Pastor In Residence MinistriesBonus ContentAnger, Depression, and Temptation: Dealing with the Unexpected on Your Sabbatical, with Sean NemecekStuff happens when you step away from the hectic pace of everyday ministry life to take a multi-month sabbatical. Most of it is good, some of it is surprising, and if you're not ready for it, some of it can cause damage.Thankfully, Sean Nemecek and the team at Pastor In Residence Ministries have been working with pastors for years, helping them get the most out of their sabbaticals. And now they've put it all in one place with the Clergy Sabbatical Toolkit.In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Sean about some of the unexpected things that happen on sabbatical, so you can be prepared to get the most out of your time of refreshing and renewal.

Have you ever noticed that people don't pay attention to sermons the way they used to? It may not be the fault of shorter attention spans (not exclusively, anyway). There's a lot more happening — and we, as pastors and communicators can do something about it.Karl Vaters talks with Payton Minzenmayer. He's a pastor, and the founder of ChristianStoryLab.com, a new website that offers great ideas to make our writing and speaking more engaging by using the aspects of story — just like Jesus did.Some of what they talk about includes: GamificationThe Open Loop MethodThe Anapastic MeterLinks:ChristianStoryLab.com3 Proven Strategies to Gamify Your StorytellingOpen Loop Method: Hook Your Reader And Keep Their AttentionThe Secret To Unforgettable Stories (The Anapastic Meter)ChurchFuel.comYou can follow Payton on LinkedIn and X.Bonus video (Supporters and Subscribers only)3 Simple Habits to Elevate Your Writing and Speaking, with Payton MinzenmayerStorytelling is the most powerful form of communication. But most of us could use help to do it better. Karl Vaters talks with Payton Minzenmayer, of ChristianStoryLab.com, about the three habits Payton uses every day to strengthen his storytelling muscles. They're simple, repeatable, and so helpful.Links:ChristianStoryLab.com3 Simple Habits to Elevate Your Writing In 30 Days Or Less

According to John's vision in Revelation 7:9, heaven will be filled with people who are still recognized by their ethnicity (every nation, tribe, people, and language). So, if we want the church here and now to reflect that, Sunday mornings must stop being the most segregated time of the week.That's the premise of Karl Vaters' conversation with Jamaal Williams and Timothy Paul Jones, the co-authors of In Church as It Is in Heaven: Cultivating a Multiethnic Kingdom Culture, which Karl named as one of his best nonfiction books of the year for 2024.Jamaal and Timothy focus on what we can do to create a more kingdom-minded approach to ethnic diversity, while acknowledging that ethnic diversity is not the point of the church, but a byproduct of the gospel message.Links:In Church as It Is in Heaven: Cultivating a Multiethnic Kingdom Culture Bonus video3 Steps to Move Your Church Toward Multiethnic Generosity, with Jamaal Williams and Timothy Paul JonesOne of the habits (liturgies) that Jamaal Williams and Timothy Paul Jones suggest in their book, In Church as It Is in Heaven: Cultivating a Multiethnic Kingdom Culture, is to help your church move toward multiethnic generosity.Karl Vaters talks with them as they suggest a simple plan to visit a faithful, gospel-driven church outside your own ethnicity or culture once every three months. Embrace this habit as an opportunity to learn from sisters and brothers in other cultures. And when you do, walk through these three steps:Consider your own preferencesVisit the other churchBe grateful for your preferences—and be willing to lay them down

The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus changed everything. Not just for eternity, but for the world here and now.According to Glen Scrivener, the author of The Air We Breathe, How We All Came to Believe In Freedom, Kindness, Progress, and Equality, most of what we now consider to be self-evident human values were not so evident or common before Jesus.In this conversation, Karl and Glen talk about:How so many principles that most people consider universal, are actually the result of the Christian worldviewWhy this goes unnoticed by people, Christians and non-Christians alikeWhy it's important to regain this understandingWhat the values of the world looked like before the cross upended everythingHow a clear understanding of the first three chapters of Genesis is the foundation for all of itPodcast Links:Speak LifeBook: The Air We Breathe: How We All Came to Believe in Freedom, Kindness, Progress, and EqualityBook: 3 2 1: The Story of God, the World and YouBonus SummaryHow Good Theology Became the Basis for Good Science, with Glen ScrivenerGood theology and good science are good friends. In this short conversation with Glen Scrivener, Karl Vaters asks him about the three legs upon which this reality sits.These three principles become clear when we have a better understanding of the first three chapters of the Bible:The freedom of GodThat humans can understand God's waysTaking human fallibility into account

Karl Vaters talks with Scot McKnight about what we can learn from those who are deconstructing their faith.This conversation is based on the content of Scot's new book (co-written with Tommy Preson Phillips), Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ.This is a challenging book and a challenging conversation, especially if you are to the right of center theologically and politically (like Scot and Karl). But I encourage you not to write it off for those reasons.Scot makes the case, through personal observation and thorough statistics, that people who use a term like “deconstruction” are probably not leaving Jesus, but are usually trying to find a simpler, more genuine representation of him than what they've seen in many of our churches. Deconstructors are asking important questions and shining a light on issues we need to pay attention to. Links from this Episode:Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for ChristThe New Testament In ColorNick Crawley - Bible For LifeBonus Content Summary The Three Stages of DeconstructionFrom chapter 6 of Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ, Scot McKnight shares the three distinct steps most deconstructors go through (Liminality, Elimination, and Liberation), and what they mean.Knowing these phases can be very helpful for us, as church leaders, to be involved in the conversation with them. When we step into this space instead of running from it, we have the chance to learn, and to guide them as they seek to draw closer to Jesus.

Karl Vaters interviews Matt Lucas about starting your congregation on the road to spiritual maturity through increasing their Bible reading. Specifically, how reading the Bible at least four times a week is so powerful, it's been called "The Power of Four."Matt is the CEO of Our Daily Bread (known for their quarterly devotionals) and The Center for Bible Engagement.Karl and Matt talk about:What is The Power of Four?Why does reading the Bible 4+ times a week make such a difference in spiritual maturity?The importance of reading and hearing the Bible in churchHelpful ways to gauge spiritual maturityHow to use Power of Four to help a congregation become more matureLinks:Bible Engagement: A Key to Spiritual GrowthCenter for Bible EngagementA Non Anxious Presence by Mark SayersBonus Content SummaryA Congregational Survey to Help Track Your Congregation's Spiritual Maturity, with Matt LucasHow do you know if your congregation is maturing? Tracking church attendance is not enough.Matt Lucas and the team at Our Daily Bread are creating a powerful new tool to help pastors and their congregations.In this Bonus Material, Karl Vaters talks with Matt as he shows us this new tool, explaining what it will do, how easy it will be, and how you'll be able to use it to lead your congregation well.

Retirement isn't what it used to be. In the U.S. military, retirement is mandatory at 62 years of age, but U.S. Army Garrison Chaplain (MAJ) Lisa A. Northway is an exception to that. Lisa, who's currently stationed in Fort Sill, OK, has been called the “Grandma Moses” of the Army Chaplaincy. She recently received permission to extend her chaplaincy for a few more years.In this podcast, Karl Vaters talks with Lisa about how to have vibrant ministry past retirement age, includingThe value of long-term experience in today's ministry environmentHow to pace yourself for the long-termHow not to block the way for younger ministersHow to mentor younger ministers Links from this Episode:Elizabeth Fulgaro's Eagles NestBook: The Fantasy Fallacy by Shannon EthridgeBook: Unwanted by Jay StringerBook: The Awakened Brain by Dr. Lisa MillerBonus ContentNavigating the Challenges of Being a Woman In Ministry, with Lisa NorthwayWhat roles does the Bible allow women to serve in the church? This is a hot-button topic, for sure. In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with U.S. Army Garrison Chaplain Lisa Northway about the challenges she faces as a woman in ministry, and how to address those issues among the troops she serves.

Small churches aren't a problem to fix, they're a unique part of the body of Christ that has gifts we need to embrace.Karl Vaters talks with Allen T. Stanton about the importance of embracing what's right about small churches, not in spite of being small, but because they're small, in a conversation based on the content of Allen's book, The Gift of Small: Embracing Your Church's Vocation.Some of the subjects they cover include:A new take on the “all growth is good growth” assumption, based on the fact that we live in a culture that is so economically drivenWhy small churches should be more nimble, but often are notThe differences between a hierarchical leadership model and the Solar System ModelThe importance of the “Parking Lot meeting”The differences between regular and episodic volunteersLinks:The Gift of Small: Embracing Your Church's VocationReclaiming Rural: Building Thriving Rural Congregations211Counts.orgUniversity of the OzarksBonus ContentFour Practices to Help Your Small Church Stay Nimble, with Allen T. StantonKarl Vaters talks with Allen T. Stanton about the importance of:Acknowledging the places where small-membership churches are already good at change and where they already practice being adaptive and flexible.Remembering that not everything needs to change all the time.The looseness of small-church relational networks, rather than strict hierarchies and complicated bureaucracies.Understanding and appropriately managing the roles of individuals in the organization.

Working a side hustle is no longer the exception for pastors, it's the norm. Embracing it might answer a lot of your (and your church's) needs.Karl Vaters talks with Jon Sanders about the rise in covocational pastoring and why it's something more pastors, especially small-church pastors, should take seriously. Jon is the co-host of the EntrePastors Podcast and the co-founder of EntrePastors.com (with Les Hughes).The culture around us is shifting. The idea that someone entering the workplace will get a single full-time job to pay the bills is a rarity. And the church is no exception. But, unlike the secular marketplace, we shouldn't be playing catch-up with this. We can lead.Jon and Karl talk about several important aspects of bivo/covo ministry, including:Why this is a growing needHow to make the shift without neglecting the churchThe difference between bivocational and covocationalHow to prepare your congregation for a covocational pastorateAnd more.Jon also serves as the Director of Coaching for the 95Network, a ministry that specializes in serving small to midsize churches.Podcast Links:Rural Church Rescue, with Jon Sanders (ep 024)EntrePastorsHow The Side Hustle Is Changing The Face Of Pastoring Bonus MaterialFinding a Covocational Job That Fits a Pastor's Skills and Schedule, with Jon SandersWhat marketplace jobs work well for covocational pastors?The skills you have honed as a pastor are highly desirable in the secular marketplace. But how can they be turned into a paying job that won't interfere with your pastoral calling?In the bonus conversation I talk to Jon Sanders of EntrePastors.com about how to make that transition, including several real-life examples of pastors who have made that transition well.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Why would a young church planter choose to do ministry in the poorest neighborhood of a city in crisis?Many churches are fleeing the inner cities. Grand old church buildings with deep histories sit empty. But Tim Walker and Restored Church are facing these realities head-on in Wilkes-Barre PA.Karl Vaters talks with Tim about subjects like:Their church's Hub for Movement strategyTheir decision to do ministry in the poorest part of townMinistry in a deeply post-Christian contextHonoring history, while moving into the future from a legacy church buildingTheir plan to plant a microchurch on every block of Wilkes-BarreLinks from this episode:Future Church, by Will Mancini and Cory HartmanFrom Megachurch to Multiplication, by Chris GalanosCory Hartman Podcast Interview (Ep 29)Frank Wooden Podcast Interview (Ep 81)GotQuestions.orgRestored ChurchTim@restoredchurch.orgBonus ContentHow To Foster Pastoral Collaboration In Your Town, with Tim WalkerKarl Vaters talks with Tim Walker about how he and other pastors in his town have created a network of ministry collaboration that blesses all churches and reaches the community more effectively.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Karl Vaters talks with Chase Replogle about one of the most controversial, but unavoidable topics today—living with offense without being offended. This material comes from his just-released book, A Sharp Compassion: 7 Hard Words to Heal Our Insecurities and Free Us from Offense.Karl and Chase talk about why offense is a necessary part of life, how to use it well, and deal with it properly.Subjects include:How Jesus intentionally used offensive words in strategic situations to bring about desired resultsThe importance of discipleshipHow the absence of close relationships makes us more offendableHow church leaders can help those who struggle with being offendedAnd moreChase Replogle is also the author of The 5 Masculine Instincts: A Guide to Becoming a Better Man, and is the host of the Pastor Writer Podcast. He pastors the Bent Oak Church in Springfield, Missouri.Links from this episode:Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer Bonus Content SummaryThe Danger Of The Cult Of Self-affirmationKarl Vaters talks with Chase Replogle about the dangers of using self-affirmation as a guide to life and truth. Recent surveys have shown that self-affirmation, and specifically “how I feel at the moment” have widely replaced universal truths in many people's lives.It's also made its way into the church. While 91% of U.S. adults agree that “the best way to find yourself is by looking within yourself,” 76% of practicing Christians agreed with that statement.As Chase wrote in A Sharp Compassion, “Religion has not disappeared from America, as so many feared; instead, it has, like everything from our entertainment to our diets, become personalized. It has shifted from the risk of offense to the affirmation of the self.”

In September and October over 1.2 million people will search online for “Trunk-or-Treat near me.” Here's how to be one of the churches they find.Karl Vaters talks with Darrell Stetler about practical steps to help churches of any size put on a high-quality, gospel-centered Trunk-or-Treat event. Darrell is a small-church pastor in Oklahoma City and he has created a free 23-page guide called Trunk-orTreat Planning for Churches: A Step-by-step Guide.Karl and Darrell talk about:The benefits of having a church Trunk-or-TreatPicking a themeWho it's designed to reachWhen to start planningRecruiting volunteersHow to gather info from attendersHow to follow upPodcast Links:Free 23-page Planning Guide with Trunk-or-Treat Ideas for ChurchesThe Gospel Trunk-or-Treat Planning SystemPrevious Darrell Stetler Interview (Ep 38)Also from Darrell Stetler:NewStart Discipleship CurriculumFree New Believer Bible Reading Plan (1 Page PDF)Free audiobook on Discipling Your ChildrenFree NewStart Discipleship Journal: A 54-page Discipleship Bible Study for new Christians.Free one-hour Discipleship Training workshopSocial media:facebook.com/darrellstetler2facebook.com/newstartdiscipleshipyoutube.com/@newstartdiscipleshiptwitter.com/newstartdiscBonus SummaryYes, Your Church Can Do Trunk-or-Treat without Compromising Your Christian Values, with Darrell StetlerIf you have problems with Halloween, I'm right there with you. Not a fan. In this short video, Darrell Stetler and Karl Vaters talk about:Why our churches do a trunk-or-treatThe three attitudes Christians can have toward HalloweenThe misunderstood non-pagan origins of HalloweenWhy it's okay for churches to offer a safe, Bible-based alternative Bonus Content Links:Halloween: A Distinctively Christian HolidayFree 23 Page Planning Guide with

Karl Vaters talks with Brad Roth about the content from his new book, Flyover Church: How Jesus' Ministry in Rural Places Is Good News Everywhere, for which Karl wrote the foreword.Topics include:How the rural church is different from the city and suburban church, not just in scale, but in typeHow metrics are very different in the rural churchThe lure of strategyThe radically different pace of rural ministryAnd moreBrad is also the author of The Hunger Inside: How the Meal Jesus Gave Transforms Lives, and God's Country: Faith, Hope, and the Future of the Rural Church.Links:DoxologyProject.comBook: God's Country: Faith, Hope, and the Future of the Rural ChurchBook: The Hunger Inside: How the Meal Jesus Gave Transforms LivesBook: Flyover Church: How Jesus' Ministry in Rural Places Is Good News Everywhere​Brad Roth Bonus Chat summaryOne New Person: Toward An Authentic Metric For The Rural ChurchKarl Vaters talks with Brad Roth about how and why metrics work very differently in rural churches than in urban and suburban churches. As Brad wrote, “Most of us don't need numbers to know whether our church is thriving. Numbers often stand in for intuition and attempt to substitute with a dashboard what can only be learned through years spent with a people in a place.”To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Sometimes pastors are our own worst enemy, so we need to recognize that God chose us for this work.There's probably not a single pastor (at least not a long-term pastor) who can't relate to the title of Craig T Owens' latest book, When Sheep Bite: Help for Shepherd Leaders Who May Have Felt the Painful Bites.In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Craig about what those bites mean, where they come from and what to do about them. Then they spend the bulk of the episode covering the chapters that make up the meat of his book:When the Sheep Flatter YouWhen the Sheep Criticize YouWhen the Sheep Gossip About YouWhen the Sheep Slander YouWhen the Sheep Question Your AuthorityWhen the Sheep Abandon YouLinks:When Sheep Bite: Help for Shepherd Leaders Who May Have Felt the Painful BitesShepherd Leadership: The Metrics that Really Mattercraigtowens.comChurch Metrics that Really Matter, with Craig T. Owens (Ep 043) BONUS MATERIALNavigating Your Way Through Good Stress And Bad Stress, with Craig OwensKarl Vaters interviews Craig T Owens about the fact that there are two kinds of stress that we all face:Unbalanced, unhealthy stress, which we call distressBalanced, healthy stress, which is known as eustressIn life, as in ministry, it's essential that we know the difference, and that we're aware of how to reduce the negative, while embracing and growing with the positive.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Karl Vaters talks with Frank Wooden about Microchurches. Frank has been a church planter for decades, but is now concentrating on the Microchurch model as a valid, healthy alternative in a changing cultural landscape. Karl and Frank talk about What Microchurch is Why it's so appealing right now Some cautions to be aware of Three reasons the Microchurch model can work for a church of any size How the Microchurch model might be the answer for many churches in crisis And more   Links: KC Underground Tampa Underground The Discovery Bible Study Method Clayton Christensen fwooden@socalnetwork.org Bonus Content Summary How to Help an Existing Church Adapt to the Microchurch Model Karl Vaters talks with Frank Wooden about the value of the Microchurch model as an alternative for a church in crisis. They discuss how this model might help answer financial challenges, the importance of being proactive, what to do with a church's institutional assets if they adapt this model, and how to address concerns from mature members. To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Karl Vaters talks with Laurie Acker about the changing face of small church ministry, especially as it relates to recruiting, training, and relying on the volunteers who are so essential in helping small churches survive and thrive in a changing world. Laurie runs SmallChurchMinistry.com, an online ministry that provides resources and support for volunteers and ministry leaders in smaller churches. Ministries like this are so important because they help provide practical help for the volunteers who do small-church ministry without any prior training. Links from this episode: Website: https://smallchurchministry.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/smallchurchministry/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/smallchurchministry Creative Solutions for Small Churches Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry  Small Church Network & Academy: https://smallchurchministry.com/membership/ Email: Laurie@smallchurchministry.com Book: One Thing Remains Bonus Content Karl Vaters talks with Laurie Acker about Using a Planning Party to Jumpstart Youth/Kids Ministry. She suggests who should be involved, when to hold the meeting, and more. Karl and Laurie also talk about how healthy small churches are uniquely suited to meet the needs of youth and kids in an environment that values relationships and connection over programs and professionalism. To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Pastoring in a post-Christian context is different. The more counter-cultural our faith becomes, the more important it is to understand that Christian consumerism is deadly and church cooperation is essential. Karl Vaters talks with Dan Nichols about these subjects, including: Negotiating a cultural shift in a longstanding church Partnering with other churches Bridging the big/small church divide And more Dan Nichols is the pastor of Grace Christian Fellowship in Cortland NY, and the founder of Northeast Collaborative. Links: Northeast Collaborative The Bible Project GotQuestions.org Bless App Soularium Sean McDowell YouTube Constable's Notes Everand ​Bonus Content Karl Vaters talks with Dan Nichols about Creating a Spirit of Generosity in a Local Church. Dan's church takes an offering every year that they give away in its entirety to ministries outside their church. This year it will go to nine other local churches that they work alongside. Karl and Dan talk about how that kind of generosity happens, and what a pastor can do to start moving a church away from fear and toward being outrageously generous. To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As we come to the end of our ten-part series based on De-sizing the Church, we're highlighting portions of conversations Karl Vaters had with five church leaders from various backgrounds about their first reactions to reading the book. Drew Dyck (author and editor) talks about the dangers of Christian celebrity. Peyton Jones (author and church planter) discusses how churches operating under the church growth paradigm are more likely to be in decline than growth. Greg Atkinson (author and church consultant) highlights the importance of broadening our understanding of church size and health. Stan Givens (pastor) comments on the importance of churches working together, and the essential role of discipleship. Sean Nemecek (author and soul care coach) looks at the high rates of burnout due to chasing numbers, and digs into the revivalist history of the Great Awakenings.   Links: De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next Church Plantology The Weary Leaders Guide to Burnout Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Karl Vaters talks with Mike Rubino about his First Reaction to the first chapter of De-sizing the Church, The Danger of Idolizing Outcomes. Karl and Mike look at: The difference between a church that is trending or transforming The biggest mistakes churches make regarding metrics Why “idolatry” is not too strong a term for how many churches and pastors approach size, growth, and outcomes And more. When we're obsessed with doing something that Jesus never told us to do we're always in danger of it becoming an idol. And the weight of that is more than we can bear. Mike Rubino is the pastor of Cornerstone Bible Church, Port Jefferson Station, on Long island NY, and the founder of the Church Revitalize Center. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A conversation with Matt Steen about the potential dangers of replatforming fallen pastors too quickly. This is the first of three First Reaction episodes in which I talk to people who read advance copies of De-sizing the Church to get their response to some of the issues I raise in it. As the co-founder of Chemistry Staffing, which helps churches find great staff members, and staff members find awesome churches, Matt has a unique insight about the right time to replatform pastors after they've failed morally. Matt and I also address the issues of Platform Addiction, the effect on victims when we replatform fallen pastors too quickly (or at all), and the important idea that restoring someone back into ministry doesn't always mean getting them back on a platform again. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Fame and celebrity have many downsides. But Daniel Darling brings a balanced approach to this subject by reminding us that fame is also what allows a good message to get through the clutter. In this episode, Karl talks with Dan about a Twitter thread Dan wrote expressing appreciation for the fame of Tim Keller. It was Tim Keller's platform and the celebrity status it gave him that allowed Dan and so many others to be introduced to Keller's teachings. Dan's perspective on the value of having a platform is an important balance to our conversations about the dangers of celebrity. Dan Darling is the director of The Land Center, a columnist for WORLD and an opinion contributor for USA Today. Links: Daniel Darling Tweet from May 20, 2023 DanielDarling.com Daniel Darling's newsletter Daniel Darling books Karl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you've read the book and you'd like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What happens when a pastor sets out, not to minister to people who look like him, but to purposely reach people who look as different from his current congregation as possible? That's what Dave Gibbons, the founding pastor of Newsong Church in Orange County, CA did. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with him about the planting of Newsong, the challenges Dave faced when he decided to guide them to look more like the diverse county they were ministering in. Dave talks honestly and vulnerably about how the Holy Spirit challenged him to reach out to the misfits and the marginalized. This challenged him and the church in huge ways, including a massive drop in attendance that he had to find his way through emotionally, financially, and spiritually.   Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you've read the book and you'd like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/contactme. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Meritocracy has become embedded in the American church. In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Scot McKnight about why this is dangerous, how to notice the warning signs of a toxic church culture, the problems with being or following a narcissistic leader, and more. Scot McKnight is the co-author (with Laura Barringer) of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you've read the book and you'd like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/contactme. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Karl Vaters interviews Bob Smietana, a columnist for Religion News Service, and the author of Reorganized Religion: The Reshaping of the American Church and Why it Matters. Bob and Karl discuss some of unintended consequences of the Church Growth Movement from Bob's unique vantage point. They also delve into the dangers of bigness and what we can do about it. Then they discuss Smietana's fascinating article, “There's a Reason Every Hit Worship Song Sounds the Same,” and what it says about the current church culture. Links Reorganized Religion: The Reshaping of the American Church and Why it Matters Religion News Service There's a Reason Every Hit Worship Song Sounds the Same Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you've read the book and you'd like me to speak to your group about the issues I raise in it, reach out to me at KarlVaters.com/contactme. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If small church pastors have a modern patron saint, Eugene Peterson might be it. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with Peterson's biographer, Winn Collier about the places where Winn's book, A Burning in My Bones: The Authorized Biography of Eugene H. Peterson, Translator of The Message, overlaps with Karl's book, De-sizing the Church. They talk about how Winn was entrusted to write Peterson's authorized bio, why people (especially pastors) are still so fascinated by Peterson's writings, his life, and the way he pastored. Then they narrow in on how Peterson accurately, but fairly critiqued the church growth movement and our obsession with bigness. Finally, they address several parts of Peterson's life and ministry that didn't fit into De-sizing the Church, including: How Peterson's life connected with people even deeper than his writings did The importance of pastoral presence How Peterson pushed back against our size obsession and the institutionalism of a business-centered approach to church growth The importance of those inefficient hours in a pastor's life and schedule And more Links: A Burning in My Bones: The Authorized Biography of Eugene H. Peterson, Translator of The Message Working the Angles: The Shape of Pastoral Integrity Karl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you've read the book and you'd like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

One of the biggest dangers of our obsession with church size is the rise of the Christian celebrity culture. Katelyn Beaty is the author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church. Katelyn defines celebrity as “social power without proximity.” In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Katelyn about what that means, why it's a problem, and why we in the church are so susceptible to the lure of celebrity. There's also great hope for those who have been led astray by Christian celebrity culture, whether you're the one following a celebrity, or if you're the one desiring to be followed. Links: Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church Karl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you've read the book and you'd like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We have an unhealthy relationship with bigness in the church. Especially in the American church. And it's killing us. The rate of church closures, departing members, and pastoral burnout is growing exponentially. This is the first episode of a series of podcasts based on Karl Vaters' new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next. Karl talks about how we became so obsessed with bigness in the church, why it's dangerous, and what we can do to change course. Look for upcoming De-sizing the Church episodes in which Karl interviews Katelyn Beaty, Scot McKnight, Winn Collier, and more. De-Sizing the Church is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you've read the book and you'd like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/contactme. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Have you ever felt like your church is “less than” because you don't have a worship experience with the talented musicians you've seen in larger churches? According to Teresa Stewart, not only is that not needed for an excellent worship experience, but the small church actually has advantages that are not always available to our big-church friends. In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Teresa Stewart about some of those advantages, including: The Happy Birthday Effect Seeing and adjusting our aesthetic cues Stone Soup planning The value of small-church symbols How to ask better questions about our worship experience And so much more Teresa Stewart is the author of The Small Church Advantage: Seven Powerful Worship Practices that Work Best in Small Settings. Teresa's approach is simple, practical, and applicable in most small-church settings. She challenges some of the ways we've thought about small-church worship, offers viable alternatives, then gives some wonderful step-by-step advice about how to curate worship to be more participatory without letting chaos reign. Links from this Episode: https://www.worshipnerds.com/ Teresa@smallchurch.org    Bonus Chat The Role of Conversation in Small-Church Worship Karl Vaters talks with Teresa Stewart about conversation can be incorporated into the small-church experience. She encourages us to start slow and small. And she helps us curate the experience so it doesn't become a free-for-all. As Teresa wrote in her book, “Conversation in worship is not an anything-goes pursuit. It should serve and deepen the worship. Begin by curating worship in one element of your usual order.” On a very practical level, Teresa talks about the three levels of questions and conversation. Knowing these levels will help you approach this with wisdom and patience, allowing people to participate while maintaining a sense of direction. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ian Borkent is a pastor in the Netherlands who walked through a season of ministry burnout and now helps pastors address this issue in their own lives through the ministry of Grow a Healthy Soul. In this episode we'll talk about the causes of pastoral burnout, how to avoid it, and how to recruit church members to the task of helping pastors by employing the five-fold ministry gifts. Also, I'll be sharing some of content of my new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next (coming April 2, 2024) and how our obsession with bigness is a major contributing factor to pastoral burnout, church scandals, and more. Links From This Episode Alan Hirsch APEST test The Church as Movement (book) Grow a Healthy Soul Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our YouTube channel) Helping Your Pastor Lead Beyond Burnout Karl Vaters talks with Ian Borkent about how congregation members have a calling to help their pastor, including what pastors can do to let congregation members know they need their help. They also talk about Bunjee Cord Leadership, plus the importance of simply asking for help, and working through the discomfort of not doing everything.   Link: How to Lead and Still Have a Life: The 8 Principles of Less is More Leadership, by H. Dale Burke  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our brains are the most important, but least understood part of our body. In this episode, Karl Vaters interviews Michel Hendricks about the fascinating place where faith and brain science intersect. Michel is the co-author (with Jim Wilder) of The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation, which Karl listed as one of his top ten books in 2023. If a conversation about brain science sounds intimidating, it's not. Both the book and this conversation put the cookies on a low shelf for all of us. Michel is the Director of Life Model Consulting at LifeModelWorks.org where he works with churches and organizations to help bring maturity and the transformation of character back into the center of Christian practice. Links: The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation Renovated: God, Dallas Willard, and the Church That Transforms The Pandora Problem: Facing Narcissism in Leaders & Ourselves LifeModelWorks.org BONUS MATERIAL The Importance of Joy and Gratitude in Ministry Karl Vaters talks with Michel Hendricks, the co-author (with Jim Wilder) of The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation about the concept that “God designed our brains to run on joy like a car runs on fuel.” The conversation includes why joy "leaks", how to refill our joy tank, and the three importance points of convergence about joy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is the second of two very special episodes that we're doing in back-to-back weeks instead of our usual bi-weekly schedule. This episode features the message I preached in January 2024, on the day our church honored Shelley and me for our 31 years of serving the church on staff. In this message, I talked about what we're doing next, including why God has called us to the ministry of Helping Small Churches Thrive. It includes some of the key points we teach to Small Church Pastors, like: The Theory of the Long Tail The Grasshopper Myth The Pastoral Prime Mandate and more.  It also includes how people can support us in this new era of ministry. We will no longer be receiving a salary from the church, but we're raising all our own funds to be missionaries to the small churches in need. But the churches that need the help the most can afford it the least. To become a financial supporter, please visit https://karlvaters.com/support/. The message ends with one of the most touching stories I've ever heard about a Small Church Pastor who, like so many others, is one of the unsung heroes of the faith. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is the first of two very special episodes that we're doing in back-to-back weeks, instead of our usual bi-weekly schedule. In January 2024, Karl and Shelley Vaters were honored by their home church as they ended 31 years on the pastoral staff—25 years as lead pastor, six years as teaching pastor. This, and the next episode of The Church Lobby are taken from that Sunday service. This episode features an on-stage interview in which Gary Garcia (the current lead pastor), asks Karl about their time at Cornerstone. It's a helpful look at the value of longevity for the pastor and the church and some insights into how they were able to navigate a healthy pastoral transition. Be sure to stick around after the interview for some of Karl's important takeways for people in ministry. You can watch the entire service on the CornerstoneFV YouTube channel, here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A little over a year ago, A.I. came into our lives in a big way. Suddenly, it seemed to be everywhere. Karl Vaters talks with Jason Moore about what A.I. is, why it came into our lives so suddenly, and what its strengths and dangers are.  Then they spend the bulk of this slightly longer-than-usual episode with Jason physically walking us through using A.I. in real time, showing it to us on his computer screen. This is a great episode to watch on our YouTube Channel, but we also describe everything verbally, so you'll get all the key information if you're listening to audio only. Links From This Episode: This podcast episode on YouTube Bard.Google.com Chat GPT: Chat.Openai.com Claud.ai Magai.co Elevenlabs.io Email: Mail@MidnightoilProductions.com https://www.facebook.com/midnightoilproductions/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Everyone has an opinion about live streaming, pro or con. As I sift through it, I only want to give a platform to the most helpful, thoughtful voices, and Tim Fox is one of them. In this podcast, we talk about the content of a Facebook post Tim wrote that challenged the reasons most churches live stream their services, while offering some thoughtful alternatives. Tim is not anti tech, but he is good at asking deeper questions about what we're doing and why we're doing it. He offers eight points, all of which are thoughtful, including two that really caught my attention. And all four of his alternatives are helpful. Tim is a denominational leader in Georgia who spent several years leading a small church into a healthy turnaround. Also, this episode marks a change in the way I close podcasts. From this point on, if I have closing words after the interview (and I may not always) it will be to add something new to the conversation, not just to give a summation of it. And that's what I do at the end of this episode, so stick around for my additional thoughts. Links From This Episode: Tim's Original Facebook post TheRethinkingLeader.com gloo ChurchTrac TextInChurch Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our YouTube channel) Creating A Digital Disciple-making Strategy, with Tim Fox Ask better questions. This is the essence of Tim Fox's approach to ministry and his advice for us. In this bonus content, Tim talks to us about how to think better about how we engage people online as a lead-in and as supplemental to our in-person service, not as an alternative to it.   To get the link for the bonus chat, subscribe to the free weekly newsletter at KarlVaters.com/Subscribe or become a monthly supporter at KarlVaters.com/Support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Pastors need to read, not just for information, but for formation. Austin Carty and Karl Vaters cover topics like: The importance of reading many types of books, not just works of theology and leadership How reading helps us become more mature, wise, and caring How reading the Bible with a sense of wonder helps embed its truths into our lives How important it is to take reading seriously, not a luxury, or as something I squeeze in around ministry, but as an essential aspect of growing in life, faith, and ministry  Links from this episode: Ministry In A Secular Age, by Andrew Root e-mail: acarty@boulevardbaptist.com Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our YouTube channel) How To Become A Pastor-reader (5 Takeaways), with Austin Carty If you've had a hard time reading more, check out how Austin and Karl flesh out these following steps to becoming more of a pastor-reader: See reading as a pastoral visit Don't start by trying to read too much Hold no knowledge or writing in contempt Trust that there is beauty to be found in all sorts of books Try to read as much material off-line as possible. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Just showing up in people's lives is such an important aspect of life and ministry. Karl Vaters talks with Drew Dyck about why this is so important, as outlined in Drew's new book, Just Show Up: How Small Acts of Faithfulness Change Everything (A Guide for Exhausted Christians). Including: The value of our physical presence in pastoral ministry The importance of quantity vs quality time How showing up is not the end game, it's the onramp for healthy life and ministry Links from this episode: Pocket App Website: https://www.drewdyck.com/ Facebook: drew.dyck Instagram: drewndyck X: @drewndyck   Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our YouTube channel) The Importance Of Letting Some Things Slide, with Drew Dyck. Drew and Karl talk about how telling people “no” is not as costly as you might expect it to be, how to be more proactive in our schedules, and even how to decide which things to drop and which things to keep. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Burnout is a huge issue among pastors. But did you know there's a simple (but not simplistic) way to start addressing and reducing burnout? And that your congregation can help you with it? That's the premise of Karl's conversation with Josh Taylor, based on his book, A Preach Well Church: How Churches Can Stop Burning Out Pastors. Josh and Karl talk about what causes ministry stress, and how to start relieving that stress by doing the two primary tasks pastors are called to do – preaching and prayer. They also talk about: How good stewardship of a pastor's time and energy should not be measured by what they do, but by what they focus on – prayer and preaching That focusing on prayer and preaching does not – and should never – mean neglecting the other hands-on aspects of pastoral care That planning and prioritizing our sermon prep time doesn't just help us be better preachers, but it reduces the urgency, allowing us to be better caregiving pastor as well and more Links from this episode: ChatGPT YouVersion Bible App BreezeCHMS Preachwell.com Facebook - Joshoutloud   Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our YouTube channel) How Prayer Helps Reduce Ministry Stress (with Josh Taylor) While stress reduction is not the main reason for prayer, it is a wonderful, often under-appreciated side effect in three ways: It reminds us we are not alone It's not just about getting things from God, but about giving things to him It gives us strength to handle criticism Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There are so many books about how to turn a lifeless church around. Most concentrate on the pastor's role. But what about the role of the congregation members? In small churches, this is especially important. Karl Vaters talks with Bud Brown about how to help the congregation become agents of life and hope in a dying church through the power of prayer, from the content of the book, Lifeless to New Life: Biblical prayers to resurrect the lifeless church. The importance of praying the evangelistic prayers of the New Testament Preparing the soil to receive a fresh vision How to help a congregation embrace deep transition, not just surface change Links from this episode: https://www.turnaroundpastor.com/ Podcast, The Genius of Thomas Sowell - https://www.buzzsprout.com/1826734  email - bud@budbrown.net Bonus Content The 8 Prayers We Need For Church Revitalization, with Bud Brown There are eight specific types of prayers that the New Testament tells us to pray. In this bonus content, Karl Vaters talks with Lavern E. “Bud” Brown about each of those prayer types, from his recent book, Lifeless to New Life: Biblical prayers to resurrect the lifeless church, including what those prayers are, why they matter, and how they apply in church turnarounds. To get the link for the bonus chat, subscribe to the free weekly newsletter at KarlVaters.com/Subscribe or become a monthly supporter at KarlVaters.com/Support. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In a recent survey, 80 percent of respondents said "yes" to the question, “since serving on a church board, do you feel your spiritual life has declined?” Why is this happening, and what can be done about it? In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with Dave Beckwith about How to Turn Your Board Meetings Into God Meetings, including How our current corporate style of board meetings isn't just unbiblical, it's causing great harm to boards, pastors and the churches they serve How to shift to a more biblical model How to choose church leaders in a more biblical way Advice about the best board sizes and term limits   Links from this Episode: Book - Washed and Waiting Standing Stone Ministry Contact - Dave.B@Standingstoneministry.org   Support This Work: Visit the Website Subscribe to weekly Newsletter Contribute financially at KarlVaters.com/support Visit our Youtube Channel Bonus Chat (for supporters and newsletter subscribers only) When God Uses a Drop In Numbers to Redirect Your Efforts, with Dave Beckwith Karl Vaters and Dave Beckwith talk about issues related to church size, based on a story that Dave tells in his book, and that Karl cites in his new book, De-sizing the Church (coming April 2, 2024). Specifically we ask, what happens when a drop in attendance numbers isn't loss, but simply a redirection?  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With people attending church less frequently now, you average Sunday attendance represents a smaller percent of your regulars than ever befofe. And it affects how we pastor them and what they expect of the church in ways we may not realize. Karl Vaters talks about this with Chad Brooks, a co-vocational pastor, blogger at RevChadBrooks.com, and the host of the Productive Pastor podcast, about: Why church size matters— but not in the way you think it does How to determine how many people you're actually pastoring, since it's changed a lot in the last couple years Why the main weekend service may no longer be the wide end of your church funnel, anymore   Links: Karl's Twitter feed with Chad's comments RevChadBrooks.com What The Drop In Attendance Frequency Means For Pastors Declaring Church Size (and why it matters) No Silver Bullets (book) https://www.ihelppastorsgetjobs.com/ Ryan Burge The Great DeChurching (book) https://substack.com/ Ian Harber on Substack @revchadbrooks   Support This Work: Visit the Website Subscribe to weekly Newsletter Contribute financially at KarlVaters.com/support Visit our Youtube Channel Bonus Content The Moving Target of Small, Medium, and Large Churches — And Why It Matters Karl Vaters talks with Chad Brooks about three different ways of deciding whether your church is small, medium, or big, including some helpful information that Chad found from actually interviewing church members about it. This is important to know because if one person thinks 100 is small, another thinks 100 is medium, and a third person thinks 100 is big, it will change what they do, how they learn, and what leadership principles they follow. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this solo episode, Karl Vaters shares 22 lessons he learned on his recent sabbatical that will help you if you're considering one yourself. Including: How long it should be How to prepare for it What to expect, emotionally and mentally How to fade in and fade out of it slowly and more   BONUS MATERIAL (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our Youtube channel) How We Found Great Churches On Our Sabbatical In the supplement to this episode, Karl Vaters dives a little deeper into his experiences attending other churches on sabbatical, including: Go with a friend you trust Check out different Christian traditions Go whether you feel like it or not For a sabbatical coach, go to SeanNemecek.com. Support This Work: Visit the Website Subscribe to weekly Newsletter Contribute financially at KarlVaters.com/support Visit our Youtube Channel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Karl Vaters talks with Brady Shearer, summarizing a report about church trends and church size. Karl and Brady talk about those stats and what they mean for small church ministry, including: How stats don't tell you a church's story, but they can help you see things you might not otherwise pay attention to Good news about racial, age and ethnic diversity in churches over the last 20 years Plus, Brady uses his technical skills from his work with Pro Church Tools, to help churches navigate the biggest time of change in the last 500 years, including huge recent shifts in the way social media promotes content that can be a big benefit to your church. Links: Brady's original thread on Twitter Brady's thread content for those not on Twitter The Faith Communities Today report Pro Church Tools YouTube page Pro Church Tools podcast Nucleus website https://vectormagic.com/     Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our Youtube channel) Vertical Video and Cross-Platform Posting Karl talks with Brady Shearer about some of the very recent changes happening in social media and how content is promoted based on people's likes, not their relationships. Brady also helps us understand how to use vertical videos better, plus some very practical steps on how to post that content to all social media platforms. To get the link for the bonus chat, subscribe to the free weekly newsletter at KarlVaters.com/Subscribe or become a monthly supporter at KarlVaters.com/Support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Karl Vaters talks with Greg Atkinson, the author of several books, including The Secret Power of Kindness: 10 Keys to Unlocking Your Capacity to Change the World. Greg is probably most well-known as one of the leading church experts on hospitality and First Impressions. In this conversation, Greg talks about his brave choice to end the cycle of abuse he inherited from his family and choose kindness instead. Plus, he answers several important questions, like What is kindness? Why is kindness so powerful? Practical ways to become a kinder person Links from this Episode: The Secret Power of Kindness: 10 Keys to Unlocking Your Capacity to Change the World Subscribe to Greg's Newsletter https://firstimpressionsconference.com/ Gloo.com greg@gregatkinson.com Socials - @gregatkinson Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our Youtube channel) Karl and Greg talk about Why is Unity in Such Short Supply in the Church? In this video chat, they address some important trigger issues that Greg writes about in the last chapter of his book, including racism, politics, and more.  To get the link for the bonus chat, subscribe to the free weekly newsletter at KarlVaters.com/Subscribe or become a monthly supporter at KarlVaters.com/Support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Forgiveness may be the most desired, but among the least understood virtues found in scripture, and in life.  Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Bruce & Toni Hebel, co-authors of Forgiving Forward: Unleashing the Forgiveness Revolution. In this episode we talk about The Power of Forgiveness, including a lot of ideas that may feel counterintuitive to you, so lean in and hear the biblical foundation they're building on. It may even reframe this entire issue for you. They also provide answers to questions such as: Why is forgiveness so hard to do? What are some of the dangers of unforgiveness? What are some of the blessings of forgiveness? What if someone is having a hard time forgiving? Links From This Episode: AbidingLife.com ForgivingForward.com   Bonus chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our Youtube channel) The 7 Protocols of Forgiveness with Dr. Bruce & Toni Hebel The authors of Forgiving Forward: Unleashing the Forgiveness Revolution talk with Karl Vaters about the ingredients that go into forgiveness from a biblical standpoint. This is exclusive content for sponsors and subscribers at KarlVaters.com. To get the link for the bonus chat, subscribe to the free weekly newsletter at KarlVaters.com/Subscribe or become a monthly supporter at KarlVaters.com/Support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Karl Vaters interviews Dianne Finkelde, the author of several books, including Unlock Your Bible: The How-to Study Guide for Everyday Christians. Karl and Dianne talk about, not just the importance of reading the Bible, but how to read it in a way that the everyday person can understand it, appreciate it, and do what it says, including: Letting the Bible explain the Bible Hearing God as he speaks to us through its pages How to remember what we read Going deeper with character studies, word studies and more Links From This Episode: Unlock Your Bible: The How-to Study Guide for Everyday Christians Support This Work: Visit the Website Subscribe to weekly Newsletter Contribute financially at KarlVaters.com/support Visit our Youtube Channel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices