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Camp Redwood s9e1 & Mr Jingles s9e2 - Disturbed: The American Horror Story Podcast It's a new episode of the Disturbed Podcast.  Chris and Rob discuss the first and second episodes of the ninth season of FX's “American Horror Story: Apocalypse”.  Learn more, subscribe, or contact us at disturbed.smgpods.com.   You can write to us at disturbedpodcast@gmail.com and let us know what you think.  Please rate us and review the episode.  It really helps other people find us.  Thanks!   Don't forget to check out our TeePublic page for a sweet Disturbed T-Shirt Find all our social media links at linktr.ee/disturbedpod And if you want to chat along live when we record or watch past episodes, check us out on GetVokl! SUPPORT  SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS Order our book Pod Life: Podcaster Stories orderpodlife.smgpods.com  When you shop at Amazon.com using this link, every dollar you spend supports our podcast network and doesn’t cost you a penny more. amazon.smgpods.com Hunt a Killer – Get 20% off on your first box with Coupon Code SOUTHGATE www.huntakiller.com   Tweaked Audio Headphones – Get 30% off, Free Shipping, and a Lifetime Warranty with Coupon Code – SOUTHGATE www.tweakedaudio.com   Support our the SMG Podcast Network on Patreon www.patreon.com/SouthgateMediaGroup   #AHSFX #AHS #AHS1984   00:11 - 12:10 Welcome to disturb we are talking season nine episode one Camp Redwood and the there was is the American Horror Story Chirp that you hear Jingles Yeah it's Mr Jingles right so okay into when you move try moving weird yeah it did it would it would it refocuses so everybody listening just pretend that noise cash helping us out so that we can get on the different formats we lost Chris man down okay so right now I've been building I put disturbed on facebook disturb on instagram disturbing twitter I will add our personals on here I have stitcher dot ee slash disturbed pod you'll get all those lakes yeah super easy and like I said going forward we're going to work this out tonight we have a thing called link tree so if the single open up I can tell you where to go great it won't work yet his dogs in the camera now too but this way you'll be able to watch US stream on it should be on youtube it should be astute both episodes at once which would help me because I know I'm going to forget stuff so Chris Right up front why don't we give a little social media where can people find you the slash disturbed pod and if you go to that it's actually this is the most amazing thing you get all the links in one hold on what is that that's it sounds like an American horror stories of my chair probably know it's your camera it keeps trying in outside of about an hour west of Chicago Man Yeah and then for this show we added something new so let's see what I try to be good yeah yeah well it almost doesn't matter because episode three is going to air tomorrow right so maybe we of Geeks kind which is a small comic book artists centric focus kind here in the Midwest in Chicago in a little town called we start airing live on and our web page which nobody knows is there the link to that is already there so if you go to link tree so it's L. I. N. K. T. R. IT starts out in one thousand nine hundred seventy it was really funny I mean to me obviously they're playing with Friday the linked tree all that laying tree there we go and Adleman and I can get you guys the exact thing it's going to be in the show I have apple podcasts I'll be thirty two different directories were on Youtube on here I'll put our periscope page which this is it starts out in one thousand nine hundred seventy so I have a question Upfront Chris this we're hearing some kind of noise notes and I did put it it's really easy it's L. I. N. K. T. R. Dot E. so it's linked tree but the ease after the dot books should be on periscope and get everything set up and Emmett that you do it that you do it so we're in Kamprad it can be found at a blue box cafe or blue-box cafe one seven six and social media I am also the funding Abe stuff that was going on even though the the camp stuff and all that happened a little bit later raw with Friday the thirteenth with those other shows are this other movies I was tape at the heavily I was also getting sleep away camp I was getting all that layer really rough seventies I mean even in the first episode there is a there pull it heavily from lots of different movies I mean it's as you said it's Friday the thirteen it's there's a huge Halloween of reverence there's all sorts of stuff so yeah yeah we'll we'll have to go back and address them in really getting the idea that we were going to get a huge mash up of all that stellar with her stop when we we just got another message here from La Cashews trying to help us out we will address that going forward right now it doesn't say where it is on the top screen yet says you can't edit it during the show that's okay we're not editing it so all right what did you think of it yeah the that scene where they had I was getting more vibe of sleep away camp for some reason but there was definitely stuff going on there like that was very Friday the thirteenth like this the way they they shot it like getting wes craven I'm getting Friday the thirteenth I'm getting like I said sleep away camp I'm getting maniac because that's a better look it's right what is right what I expected I mean very see now that's where I was getting more of a maniac by was off of him there but definitely like he walks everywhere oh sorry boom that dude that was right out of I know what you did last summer the way they all went around him and then they were going like setup the shots going into the cabin I don't know I mean the overhead shot of I mean it's it's three we're kind of in the middle of the show so keep writing those ideas and we will definitely go back and kind of make those things happened Oh it says here show info disturbing story you think did you think it was going to be anything else other than that kind of some kind of murder scene that was pulled right from writer right from the all the yoga intimating sex scene something's happening hey it's evil and then you get killed so look like she's into this it looked like great we're GonNa have this weird like seventies rayvey scene and then she was into it yeah it is it's a whole bunch of stuff but it whole bunch of stuff I've seen shots that remind me of of last house on the rich so here's here's I think it's garbage awesome because it's which this show does what if elite I mean I'm totally loving it I think it's really it's really fantastic it's weird and it could almost be let's do this this whole beginning part no we're expecting for the show is just because they were talking about how they were going back and going back to ninety nine they went back to the late seventies goes isn't Halloween seventy nine I mean so you know what I mean we're not it's not like we're only you know I couldn't be more stereotypical from the eighties movies I mean the aerobics stuff was awesome and all the dialogue the way they're doing it the cookie Cutter Care Robert like extents right there all it was great and then with the camera went out and he he walks out here the jingling and you're like Oh my God well I think you know being thirty five years from nineteen eighty four if you go into the nineties you're not you're not too out of the realm I mean you know the early nineties you got a whole lot of stuff in there but yeah yeah I thought when they were showing the that I kill when it was now I'm getting I'm getting all sorts of stuff going on here definitely definitely high overtones for Friday the thirteenth series they just need to go to New York I I'll tell you the other movie I was getting a vibe off bird is he is he channeling Andrew McCarthy is each Henry James Spader is he gently would you just leave him it was right out of that movie even though that is the wrong time brame I don't care all the horror movie tropes they went for the Big Gore yells law man and they went for it to you cut the ears off you saw the blood everywhere they had the the awkward scene with three way and and I was watching it with Martha my wife and she goes one girl the Acre why is he here out of time I started thinking I wonder if this is a simulation of some sort I wonder if this is kind of game l. 12:10 - 16:09 do so I'll tell you the other movie I'm getting a vibe off of and this is this is good that we're cutting we're doing both shows there's a lot that happens between the two we're going to just talk season one and season Earth episode one one episode to as one big thing if you haven't watched both episodes stupid I mean it's it's well it's over it's over the top cheesy the whole eighty or they're working out I mean it couldn't be more she is channeling Leeann Quigley to me even though she's channeling other people Leeann and a little bit of I mean in Manhattan due for Donald pleasants to show up at some point touch a bill that would be great I mean but you know right from the beginning the the the show about what happened it wasn't this specifically stereotypical it was stereotypical but not this as a midnight he's much more common with nine thousand nine hundred or two thousand nineteen so I think I think you're allowed that period I mean because it's not like they went to nineteen eighty four the five yeah right right yeah I mean I guess we're GonNa Bury the lead here we're not going to be either he's you know he he could be done Johnson because he has at Miami Vice Kinda theme going Yeah Yeah Well billy Lord what's his name just lost his name our guy who's played Mr Jingles oh John Carroll Lynch amazing that he's been they're gonNA kill the Black Guy I I am so glad they did he still around who we're waiting 'cause nobody's really been killed that is one of the main character is all roy out of the seventies and early eighties oh my gosh oh my gosh how about about a and they're doing a great job of time characters back to other American or story season so like he's obviously he played Casey he played oh or I guess not now nineteen eighty-four I thought for sure they were gonNA kill what's his name Ray and I was like they're going to go with that trump because they're doing all the tropes optus go watch them can't really stop it when it's live you know what you'll get spoiled big deal you know what if you were in the room with me right now you know I'm she starts taking her shirt off like she wants to but what she gets she gets over is at shoot it was John Different actor playing the same character why the Hell do we have Richard Ramirez here because Richard again that's why one is the nineties I know what you summer run they hit the hitchhiker hiker the woods here wants I'm getting a cabinet in the woods vied you're a little bit and me because the the cabin in the woods I'm getting that because aw eighty four to August of eighty five okay I was thinking was earlier than that so we are thinking Zodiac killer which is earlier later right yeah right hello I'm looking at up to see when he died Yeah Yeah Yeah Oh two thousand thirteen win was he doing his stuff typical but if it's like literally ripped out a page in the eighties and said this is GonNa be something from the eighties that's who these people are in discreet at pulling all this stuff together and a lesser pay off just like in roanoke just like in other you'll even hotel if it doesn't pay off Yeah I was thinking that he was involved earlier like he his thing was over by this point but clearly not we're right in the height of or beyond that so yeah I mean they even so much as like the the our our buddy with the big mustache lying he is they're all cookie cutter because again they're the the same cookie cutter characters that we had in Friday the thirteenth and these other movies with a little bit it but it's it's very strange and then he keeps following her and he finds her in episode two he finds her. 17:00 - 39:02 I don't know we had that that weird flashback from a hiker did you notice his description of what walking out there she's already like freaked out by things that are going on why is she out there and then she goes and she dangles her feet off the dock a- and that's a very Friday the thirteenth moment she's she goes out why did she go out after Billy Laura tried to kiss her she goes outside for no reason you series off and she was bloody at jingles drove up in hit him right so jiggles wasn't in there and which is bizarre and then the body floats out after back story Oh my gosh the you know what I mean or you gotTa have the lamp what what's the one with Gordon Fisherman. I can't even remember that from a ninety day they did this one too crazy okay but I'm also wondering what we can believe from the flashbacks because I mean that one may be exactly what happened spot until jingles went by when he told the story he was looking into window and saw her standing there it did not look like she had her ear that's what is because Richard Ramirez killed him what at least two times up return and come back to him I mean he I don't know what I'm not trying to spoil it but the other thing that's really weird is a having Richard Ramirez he was in hotel right I'm thinking like you are that there's some kind of game going on this is some kind of fantasy from somebody God knows who it's going to be and they're just coming up got him in the neck you disemboweled them I mean come on the the thing is I'm not sure I'm not sure jingles did what they said anybody he's right out of that era is totally capping talking about like a lot jailing it all happened now I'm back that supposed to be a Kathy Bates gotta character and it's not okay it's not Kathy Bates but the nurse is supposed to be Adina Porter and it's and we're we're we're getting the results from Caesar what are you know what I'm going to break it right now let's talk both episodes because in the second episode they really played that since music and it sounded exactly like stranger things to me at one point and I was like okay what string this happen it could be we could have a real tight because didn't they say that these last couple seasons are going to really tie all of it together they'll may maybe happened I did not match up to Margaret's or said she laid on the ground everybody was dead she laid there stared at that thought that too I thought that too but it's not I don't but I wonder if that's what they're playing with right that's why I'm thinking too so we're not so when your way where did the capital the cook is supposed to be Kathy Bates and she's not so that means that you could be if they ever where they feel they have to play with that Dow if if they went out this is a fun era we're going to do this I'm having fun with it like I said it would suck if if the whole point of this season is to show they could do stranger things better te 'cause they're not if that's the point out strings and things you know if he's a ghost I don't know what he is is it like roanoke is he coming out of the woods and we're gonNA find out that the the witch and the woods is making every why was she bloody already jingles wasn't there yet so somebody's telling the story in a false way it it's either fantastic you know or it's going to turn to garbage but we see that sees it and then it doesn't turn the garbage or with eighty source stuff which I think is great because there's a lot of great stuff the poll trump and they're and they're pulling from everywhere and it's great but I I I you know it just made me a little bit I heard that since music and I'm looking at the hairstyles and everything and I'm like you know I hope this isn't a reaction to that his cabin the woods that's what it was is this are they do marching where people are playing these characters in that time and you're playing that terror and it's all that could be I mean need it or maybe he was an accomplice with Margaret Right who knows it she's I mean she's all sorts of messed up as it is so then out of the eleven episodes and go oh that's what this is about right I hope I mean I will cause because what is the payoff because it is to even as much as Roma's like that where you'll when you watch the first the first are rolled up or they wait wait wait where do you where do you get that really go to that the cook where they get the kind of cook the cook that they saw that was like I was knocker garbage that completely I think there's I think all we're doing I think we have no idea what's going on I think they've done it again where we're going to be like six yeah she's she's fantastic you mean with the feathered hair with that hair glasses classic it's like oh playing very well but it was like Oh yeah yeah it's it's tough to watch without billy though yeah it is for more Gore or you'll like every other episode started out pretty strong and then kind of well wait a little bit got walkie I mean especially like road I really want him there with her even in apocalypse he was in the first one episode than a rightward later IBM since escaping yeah they do that in the Halloween movies and the thing is they did it in the last Halloween movie and we all Kinda went this is a really good film or like we're having fun with it also feels like we've seen this because it is playing all the tropes so much better it's like it's it's almost like like it was fun to see okay they've got the mental you guys already know the drill there's a really good chance we're going to spill over into episode to we're GONNA train to both tonight I would love if they were separate episodes but I kinda doubt that it's going to happen what I like it I like it a lot Kathleen aids she thinks it's the stupidest thing that she's ever seen and let it go but she she just I think she's looking Tori was amazing so I'm not new the Burger it's like what are you talking about that and then seen was it's like they'll think about strangers that's right out of string things as well so that was the other thing I got a vibe off of in this episode what's the causing of of sorry that erupted but you'll go back go back into that they've already tied back into it away from Joel Carpenter they invented that that was a carpenter and all those guys the Indian I'm really hoping it's by design Sir I'm really hoping that they're going to pull the rug out from under us at it'd be like a but I don't need to see escaped convicts again and here they went right to it and it looked right out of Holloway right now again like if Margaret is the coder right this is almost like a horror minecraft that would it it's it's so cookie cutter Sir that it I'm not criticizing the show what I'm saying is it so cookie cutter it's I think it's a clue that we're not this hiker is a glitch which is why it keeps showing up and it's like you're not supposed to be here and they're like you're not supposed to be here it would be interesting maybe guys idea to bring back like they're going to do a movie or show about somebody doing a show about nineteen eighty four so they're gonNA pull back and cody burn and dance and kills it will I mean it it's an interesting idea can at last ten episodes I don't know but I once again I don't think we're GONNA be talking about this in the next no no that's the other thing they seem to do we're the main characters are doing weird things as like when billy Lord went into Kiss Brooke it was almost as if it was a prompting but not prompting like oh now's my in it was more like a weird back to me it makes more sense it is a cabin in the woods thing if it's some kind of simulation they're in and they're not aware a matrix thing and and not but it stays at eighty four timeframe Israel that would be interesting is so if Ramirez Freddie Krueger character or is he episodes from now it's going to be like Oh yeah remember when we thought it was this and it had nothing to do with this number bed right rarely right we get like the right idea that it's like very weird that was really weird Satan's directing me or a kid named Stan getting the Richard Ramirez Mr Jingles by an I I I'm hoping that they pull back and this is something afforded better with your best friend do joy in or do you get back you know what I mean have you ever seen those ads I'm wondering if it's a game like that where somebody who's making these decisions Xavier Montana and it's not chat 'cause Chat Brooke Sing Reality here you're kind of like it to be I'd Kinda like the whole thing to be at eighty four and it goes you know one oh Xavier Montana and Moustache EEO forever forever those are the ones that are at the cabin where I heard out of place moment and there've been there've been a number of those from like what what was that where's it going to be game a game on your phone because he seems like the only one that would actually be semi real in it don't you I mean he's not the one that's acting stereotypical he's acting Ramirez the way wouldn't that I mean it wouldn't make sense if she was if she was if it was a game and she was the coder an interesting take on it and then the program runs amok it's it's the what is it the ghost in the machine because Mr Jingles becomes billy lord the this'll be the greatest show ever in the old beginning of while they're hanging out in somebody's apartment thing this is GonNa be you should the infirmary because he went right there jingles the other one so the other one who's at the other one we've got let's see what are their names yeah I'm here scared of Jingles jingles is there she doesn't seem to care she's not setting traps for Jingle Jingle that's you Abi Jingles is her father maybe we've got a Friday the thirteenth setup ear that jingles was but instead of the mom killing and you know spoiler for and it would be great if it's billy where he's playing the game we're GonNa make them do and then this happened it would be or the fact that she could convince him the fact that she's trying to control elements of the game the the thirteenth the first one is the mom doing all the murder they think it's somebody else what if it was for all the murder and then to cover for her yeah even even the thing like the fact that jingles was in the war the way that story plays out I'm like jingles took the heat and went to prison and ended up like he's back out like he knows she's up there and he's like Ramirez so are we going to play if it's if it's a program he's just he's the serial killer character the fact that he showed up on the dock with her to me at the infirmary which is where Ramirez is gonNA show he's not going to kill anybody because he's working for Margaret now and somehow she's convinced him not to kill you once again talk about eighty s horror and some of the some of the references in that because he's GonNa know about he loves Friday the thirteenth but I can't tell if it's amazing or Santa hip standing right well I mean in all these light yell the clue where they were sitting at the dachshund in the car pulled up the lights the lights are not mean who is where jingles is gonNA show up right so real somebody's been died the nurses with to run up the nurse then and she wanted to get revenge on maybe maybe jingles took her thunder and she wanted to be the best murderer and jingles got all the credit is it Mr Gino's is the reserve Erez it somebody else who knows what's going so yeah right right really shouldn't be wearing white bath shoots himself that was really like classic Grind House b-movie maybe that's it maybe they're stuck in me it'd be very weird if this alternate universe but it could be some kind of alternate universe where everything like or maybe it's a loop if it was the jock when he goes it's like all time denying the ninety nine the greatest twist on all of these nineteenth slash then something's GonNa Happen to them that would be great it's what I can I love the represent I think it's great but it's like really over the top and unless it's going to really surprise us over Robert it's just like no this is what I wanted to do I wanted to do this mass burgers thing so right right yeah I mean it's it's very weird maybe right when the doors were were knocking that was that's different coasts so clear what was happening there Ramirez is at at the one at the nurses station doubt that every life just has gone on life as normal and these guys are stuck in this time loop of Nineteen eighty-four how we're going out of town because of the Olympics the best actually he had one of the best lines in the second episode where they were going in there like dude your jock you should go in there and he goes I did the pummeled assures hell would not have showered with a bunch of dudes like that not I mean just because it's uncomfortable hate that and they're all like forget her head blown up that was but that was such a great seed with the flashback he goes you he would just be torturing Barbara told GonNa get that she made me mad in seventeen episodes of the show seventeen awful I'm seeing people online say they think it's garbage but I think we have our faith this show because they've they've set us up for first of all when I was in high school we had those showers at all the guys had to shower I hated that aided that at if I was at a camp ghost is stuck in a loop maybe they're stuck in a loop you know maybe if it goes outside of of the camp we go back to a regular area we lunatics back when it was beyond the bat or before the bat before the Bat and he had been on Gotham so they had him on he played the the man that he goes if they're gonNA die I can't go with the guilty conscious I get it like going to I'm a monster yeah protect her to the very end 'cause how bad was that where he has the stuff in the side of his matches that can reopen it's like do you kiss her not yours at one yelled that one it's like the it's completely gross but it's like those dating ones you catch your hey all right let's just shower not if you're that age you know way you like that in your la you want everybody look into you don't care well if anyone's watching this video they know we're not we're not having being an athlete Lieke I guess he's like he loves it so far and I kinda like I'm out by jury the jury is out and I know it's GonNa pay off at the end before and then it's been amazing the puzzle up at the end but it's always a fun ride right in our chat with the low our good friend who can eat the shower scene like cool poor and toil okay I gotTa talk about the shower scene for a second food that he's not gonNa make it at as soon as he showed up on my yet perfect casting he you know he he said he was on one of our other shows I connected him to I got some personal stuff in here I gotta bring up what's his name Blake Matthew Morrison no the character blake the guy that was well done this big huge metal thing sticking out of this I think we've been doing this for seven seasons Chris you finally so you know really loves it because a lil is a big eighty four guy we should probably try to get a little to come and guest with us one night on here welcome to alive one with us and the characters all the time here is smarmy porn peddling and the way he got it I'm like Oh todd was freaking out that he's a friend of she's like Oh my God I love him on that show so yeah I'll see if I can reach out to him just looking through the gory hole in a grind house be booby Quinton Alternate Universe that'd be great concern is is like what yeah it just doesn't hit my radar I saw the Gotham episodes he was great in that he was really good I heard he's a great on twelve monkeys are we had a show about twelve monkeys and Blair I Grenier Kansas and sell a huge Paul just such a good line and he got to deliver it so okay so you get stabbed through the head but you did get Deliver v Line of the episode and it's an act of God then that's right on going towards that Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah actually ty did have to go along with your gory whole comment he had the best line on he was on twelve monkeys also played the scab King I never watched it it's like the one time we were chatting online and I was like oh you'll have to possibly it's not even funny really but it's pretty good pass good years pay off seven seasons in the show and when this out as a podcast I will have to drop an anvil on what I'm about to say but it was witty look through the whole and he goes that's no cock you're kept saying that but he also said I don't die here we'll so does he know where he's supposed to die because he didn't when he was talking to Margaret he didn't seem to fix he was hung up on the door with ehlers throw it and then he disappeared it's like Oh that I don't know the first thing we said doing the porkies that's my friend Todd Stash Wick Outta here we saw the credits and I was like oh no todd's what episode see God what are you GonNa do me he'll so they're they're the best the best blind in the whole second episode is not the that one it's he was checking me out I did not because it's gotta get cut out of this we're not supposed to be here I didn't die here why that was the other thing he said the hiker said he goes you're not supposed to be part of the deal right it's although I'm getting guns because you know I worked out today yeah one dive you walk in the gym in your heart assist Gonzi unbelievable hoping yeah the one of those bootleg underground teams are out your your it's so bad so you you have a you have a seven second hunk you're almost underway to domain stage almost guy but that was todd that bid at there it's happening but is she is she making up Richard Ramirez when we get to that door and the door opens isn't going to be Margaret Right or she's always lying her issue the psycho is via she's one of these people because she's with them didn't get enough line this will be back because I said the capillary but it wasn't a glory hole it was fg Oriel on so if I don't know what happened I don't know I don't know of any and she says nobody ever believes me is it because you can you give us fifteen minutes I I try to get him on here that would be funny it's out he was man I saw you were on this or whatever it is like yeah yeah did you like it I'm like I've seen you in one thing he's put it all this stuff I've just never hugh right there isn't a mother or apparent or a priest trying to save anybody it's just it's just sitting there so doesn't act likely Quigley's characters typically acted but she is she is that character she's generally in the way that maybe you look back at it and she can do it as opposed to it's just it's does this show douches it's fantastic Ascott and the head of on and he said Yeah I've got this darker look so I get these like smarmy we got run over by Mr Jingles or who got hung up well he got he got hit by Mr Jingles in the flashback we saw that but in the eighty four and that was with billy Lord's character yeah she's totally got the Leeann Quigley by going on with the outfit and the hair and everything She Ah I didn't get that impression though I think he knows those were supposed to die but he got move 'cause the kids brought him back to the camp as you know he in the in the last scene with a church everybody is out of the entire room and yet there's not one person hiding behind that one I wish I thought it was gonna be really cool great fight scenes read the action was great the other story part of it was awful right so let's hope it doesn't turn into that like it turns out this whole thing took place in one thousand nine hundred four snow globe that would be awful the Lead Guy the Guy Ritchie movie where it's about the the girl who's in the asylum in his before she's GonNa get a lot of eyes and she makes up the thing where they're like four okay Hereford far throw K. 39:03 - 46:44 but it was really overall it was a stinker pretty bad so I wish it wasn't was exiled or anything in the first two episodes that would indicate that anybody but Brooke cares about anybody else but themselves in this entire show roles and they are basically fighting Nazis sucker punch is this gonna be sucker punch where it's her I opened a sucker punch was awful I said I saw her with a high school gym so as not yeah I saw you checking me out how nurse a little bit guys are just in love with themselves they don't care about anybody else was checking me out as part of the group Montana doesn't care in the beginning after awhile right away if you read the book Richard Dreyfuss his character an underlying stories that he slept with shutters wife it's kind of funny yeah yeah I don't know you got me thinking about it I don't know and that was great I'm going to have to write them because I had no idea I'd I'd seen it I think this morning that he was going to be on I was I was episode who get an offer I'll and when it didn't start we were both sitting there watching it going okay vans not gonNa Start then when it does I'm like okay what's going to happen they hit I even thought like jingles was going to be gone by this episode while all that Mr Jingles I thought it was going to end his story well I anticipate the nurse and then they crash into the Maria and I love how that's a perfect oats Margaret's car she's GonNa be so mad what's they're leaving everybody and there's only those are the only two other people at that camp right where's the cook exactly Whoa 'cause he's a horrible Feeder Upton serial killers I mean they come in with a did all the blood you can get right or like in the like a it would be readily he would be bleeding out from that Roy sir right well not in the movie but in the book okay let me think of another one there's always you don't leave an innocent with van Halen playing in the back so they have they haven't played that they get a panel in reference they did they they made that so that was really good and the ban wouldn't start of course of course and then you re back the total is that awful ban for the eighties okay was there that she made them all the supplies of the kitchen so there wasn't anybody else that was with the cook there wasn't like a helper for the kitchen now does your bed that you guys are getting chased by serial killers and you left her here right they're going to the campus to the keys nobody mentioned going and helping Margaret the nurse is the nurse has a car keys which of course is the gap but yeah that's yeah they were GonNa they were gonNA leave her to right so I mean there's I'm not going to be the COP isn't GonNa be whoever who knows I maybe she's got that Inter brain maybe she makes it up is it what's the name of that movie is is that punch drunk really anybody but now so why would you think that they would care about Margaret elated they literally met three hours ago I mean the only reason I like that whatever Rice Scheider did not like Richard Dreyfuss his character in jaws yet he did not throw him in the water is to you care if you like them or not you don't leave an innocent to be killed by Mr Jingle is there anything in the first as our cat is goes cook disappears incomes trevor was there anybody else in that scene with the Cook do you remember in what he was he was checking me out sick what a what a DB He's been ethic so I got awesome one down one to go now we've had a few people chiming in London I drove La- cash away because I said uh-huh okay if we're wrong Kerry write something on there and tell us because we might be wrong which would not be off like ten and now I've been working on the book and then I'm working on a pretty major project so there we go so I go to sleep Friday the thirteenth I've been listening to a podcast and I want to give it a little shout out here i WanNa say something nice about it but I gotta find it DECAF tonight and actually it doesn't usually affect me but welcome to the coffee talk podcast quaffing coffee speaking what if todd is the killer and him stabbing himself in the head was just a ruse threat special effects and it's all what is and if you're a fan of Friday the thirteenth it's fun it's fun the the only thing I'm not crazy about I don't really like Comedians or look at that place yeah I know that's why I'm getting splotch eat drink decaf tonight which I never do the kids who had Brian Yeah I can't Yeah I love that first one I actually took a screenwriting class from that guy that was good advice I want to hear more but that's all right let's see I think you're right I don't remember all the details like you guys do ha ha hey Kerry we remember ever no we don't can you tell dopey and sleepy dopey beer it's only nine fourteen year olds anyway that's that was false also having about us we're making it up as we go so I'll be remember we're back in in hotel why been listening to a Friday the thirteenth one before this started  

Disruptive life events linger; they cast a long shadow. Years afterwards, you can still be surprised by sadness or fear. Magnus knows about living with pain and uncertainty; his sister died when he was just one year old and his younger brother has needed multiple heart surgeries. Magnus shares about how pain can bring us closer to people, what kids really want from their parents, and how a note or a song can be a powerful gift to those experiencing sadness.   – Magnus Mertes He was born at Methodist but he had heart troubles so they had to quickly get him over to Riley because Methodist never had the equipment. So he was taken into Riley Children's Hospital, I remember when I heard about it I felt a little shaky inside and I thought, am I going to lose another sibling?   INTRO   Today, we finish our three-week miniseries on childhood disruption.  Over the last two episodes, we have considered how disruption particularly affects children.  By extension, we are also talking about the adults that care for them. If a parent goes through disruption, whether that is a divorce or a move or a death, they are also interpreting and explaining and shepherding their child.  I know, from my own story, how important and exhausting this role can be.    I hope that these reflections help in three potential ways.   They help you better companion the children in your life that have experienced or are right now experiencing disruption.If you don’t remember, childhood can be hard.  There are scraped knees and neighborhood bullies.  Someone is always deciding when you go to bed and what you have to eat for dinner.  Now, factor in a divorce or a cancer diagnosis.  It can all feel pretty overwhelming, for both kids and adults.   These episodes help you show more empathy to friends and coworkers that are parenting children through seasons of disruption.These adults are not only managing their own sadness and exhaustion, they have little people that are looking to them for direction and guidance…and that is a really particular burden to carry.     Maybe these reflections help you to encounter your own childhood disruptions through a different light, to reflect on the ways that you were met or missed and how that empathy (or lack of empathy) might still be affecting you now.   Magnus Mertes is my guest today.  Magnus was only seventeen months old when his younger sister, Mercy Joan, was born. Mercy had a birth defect called an encephalocele, the base of her skull did not close and she only lived for eight days.  Magnus held Mercy, stroked her face, and ate bananas at her funeral.  A few years later, a younger brother, Moses, was born. Moses has had to undergo multiple open heart surgeries over the last five years.  Magnus talks about what it has been like to live under this shadow of death in today’s episode.    Magnus loves to laugh.  He is a good friend, creative, sporty, he loves to draw and tells a great story.        - Liesel Mertes So tell me a little bit about yourself.   - Magnus Mertes So I'm Magnus and I have had a little sister pass away, great Uncle pass away. Yeah I've had some kind of hard things throughout my life.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah you have. And we're going to talk about some of that today. But how about you tell me a little bit just about you as a 9 year old. What are the things that you really like?   - Magnus Mertes Well my favorite sports are football and soccer and my favorite book series is Lord Of The Rings and I really like playing outside and being with family.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. You do. What grade are you in this year?   - Magnus Mertes I'm in fourth grade, Miss Wilson's class.   - Liesel Mertes And tell us about what's coming up this week that's really exciting for you.   - Magnus Mertes This week is my very first track meet and it is also my birthday.   - Liesel Mertes You mentioned you've had a couple of hard things happen. Tell me about your little sister, Mercy.   - Magnus Mertes So when my sister was born, and she was three and I was 1, my mom got pregnant and I felt so excited like, I was going to have a little sister. But then, when the diagnosis came in that she would have some troubles, I just felt really down because I didn't want her to die. And when she was born, I felt so happy and I thought, oh she's going to live through this. She is. And I only got a short time with her, only eight days, and then she passed away in my mother's arms at my grandma's house yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Do you remember much about how you were feeling at that stage or how you feel as you remember it now?   - Magnus Mertes I feel right now, You feel sad because I really would have liked her to have been here, no offense my little sister Jemima, but I felt like I would have liked to have another sister in the house   - Liesel Mertes Yeah I know that it affected some of how you've thought about death. Could you tell us a little bit more about that?   - Magnus Mertes Yeah I was kind of affected the, I feel like when we die when I feel like you go up to heaven and there's just this blooming city of gold. And when I was little I used to imagine that I would meet Abraham Lincoln there yeah.   - Magnus Mertes I also really. Why. The thought of how we're going to be made again made me feel really good inside and made me feel cozy.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. What. Tell me a little bit about Moses and what has happened with him and how that has made you feel.   - Magnus Mertes Well, Moses. I always wanted a little brother, one I could play with. And when I saw him for the first time, I just, went over and just couldn't keep my eyes off him and I thought my head, This is my little brother now. But he was born at Methodist but he had heart troubles so they had to quickly get him over to Riley because Methodist never had the equipment. So he was taken into Riley Children's Hospital remember when I heard about it I felt a little shaky inside and I thought, am I going to lose another sibling?   - Magnus Mertes But I felt really great when his doctor, Ben Ross, felt really great that they were able to do they're able to take out one of his organs and replace it with a cow organ. And now we kind of joke around like he's the only person in family whose 1 percent cow.   - Liesel Mertes This is an ongoing joke in the family.  And, in the interest of accuracy, Moses’ doctor is actually the immensely talented Dr. John Brown at Riley Children’s Hospital.  He pioneered this procedure called a bovine tricuspid valve. Basically, a particular valve is harvested from the neck of a cow and is now keeping Moses alive.  Hence, he is “part cow”.   - Liesel Mertes We do joke about that. Are there things that have scared you or made you worried about getting sick or dying? What has that been like?   - Magnus Mertes So, one time I got a concussion and I felt like really, really, really scared because sometimes, concussions can be fatal. They can damage your brain in all sorts of ways and there's this famous boxer who died of concussion. And I was so scared at that time.   - Magnus Mertes Other times. On Memorial Day 2018, there's a huge log that was on the White River that just toppled over and like it was stuck there and I decided since it was making all these rapids and we were getting blown away by them in front of the log. I decided to go up around the back and float down and have a little bump fall and get pushed away. But what happened was when I got there right next to the log about a meter away I got sucked under by an undertow and I was just sucking, sucking, sucked and my life jacket that neared on a branch. Those like factor for about three seconds and my mind was, I was thinking, OK I'm going to drown, I'm going to drown, a minute I'm good I'm going to drown. But then what happened, it was like a miracle because that part snagged ripped off, that was pushed the way that my life jacket cause you know how they are, they pop you right up. Once I got out of the undertow about, 14 seconds later, I popped back up and I felt so relieved. But then I heard I saw of it. My older sister Ada and her friend, Scout's, face. They were like so worried and I went over and I said, What's wrong? They said Moses followed you. He got sucked under. And then I thought, Oh no no no no. This almost happened to him, he almost just died when he was a little boy. He almost died. I don't want him to die; I don't want my little brother to die. And he was under for about thirty two seconds after that and I felt so, so scared they drowned. Then finally, the same thing happened to him. It snared and then he popped right back up and I felt so, so overwhelmed with joy and happiness and relief that he didn't drown. And I just felt like God did the miracle for us yeah.   - Liesel Mertes That's a scary story. I'm so glad you guys were OK.   This story captures my attention for two reasons.  First, it horrifies me because I and three other grown-ups were standing right next to the river, eating oranges and chatting, and we didn’t have any idea what was happening.  That is how fast these childhood traumas can happen.  In Magnus’ story, I also hear the immediacy of his fear and anxiety…and the reality that disruptive life events don’t fit into neat, discreet boxes.  The river, the surgery, the threat of death, they all cascade into each other.       - Liesel Mertes Do you find that, like do you talk about Mercy much with your friends or with teachers at school?   - Magnus Mertes Like, with my best friends who, like Sebastian Falconi. Yeah, I'd tell them about it.   - Magnus Mertes Because I feel like I've gotten a good friendship with them and that they tell me about stuff. Like my friend, his parents got a divorce yes. So he it felt really, really hard on him. And I comforted him through that. And then later I told him that Mercy died and he, he just said, like, wow, you've been through the same stuff as I've been through this. Yeah. And that helped our relationship and now we're best buds.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. What are things, when you tell people, what are things that are really helpful that they say to you or help you with?   - Magnus Mertes Last year, when I got my concussion, what happened was, when I was in my bed in a dark room, my mom opened the door and said I got a visitor. And it turned out to be one of my friends, Forrest, who was actually there when I passed out and he came there. He wrote an encouraging note to me and I kept that hidden in my bed. And every day I would read it and I would think, I can get through this.   - Liesel Mertes Are there other things that grownups do or that are helpful to you when you're feeling sad or scared about Mercy or about Moses or about anything?   - Magnus Mertes So when I was afraid of death, my mom would play a song that I really liked called High Noon by Andrew Peterson and it just helped me feel really good, I feel really good and think that God knows what's going to happen to me and he's taking care of me and he loves me.   - Liesel Mertes You tell me a little bit more about that being afraid of death. What was that like?   - Magnus Mertes So, being afraid of death. I can get, like, a shiver down my spine that I would have to like leave my family and my siblings my Nana and Pa. And in fact, my great grandma and June, she was put in the hospital at age 92 for pneumonia and I felt scared, really really scared, and luckily she recovered and she's in a nursing home now. She recovered but she's really weak.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Is there anything that you feel like grown ups don't understand about kids when they're sad?   - Magnus Mertes I feel like kids. They get like depressed and it really like breaks them up and they say like, nothing's wrong, but like, I don't think parents understand that when they say it like that, that now they just kind of like leave them alone. But what they mostly need is to engage and be comforted   - Liesel Mertes Sure. If there's somebody listening who is going through some of the hard things that you've gone through. Do any words of wisdom or encouragement that you'd give them?   - Magnus Mertes I would say that you guys can do this that you guys, and if you're going through a rough time, I'm sorry that you're going through them but just know that God is going to help you and he's going to give you the best thing that he can do possible.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three take-aways that I have after my conversation with Magnus   Magnus reflected that sometimes, kids say that nothing is wrong when bad things happen. Parents, in response, will just leave them alone.  In Magnus’ words, “what they mostly need is to engage and be comforted.”  This is a good reminder, for both kids and adults, that people crave the support of relationship and community when disruption comes.  Don’t overlook the pain and the process of young children. Magnus was only seventeen months old when Mercy died.  And he was in preschool when Moses was born.  In the midst of our overwhelming pain, it would have been all too easy to overlook Magnus, to think that he was too young to process what was going on…to just hope that he would be fine. Yet, these experiences have profoundly shaped him. Music can be a great form of comfort for adults and children. There have been times where the fears were so big and words found their limits.  During those times, we found that it was really helpful to have a playlist of meaningful songs that he could listen to that helped to ground and reassure him.    OUTRO    

The burn chart mindset, whole book project management, and a how-to for finding a progress tracker that works for you. KJ’s an avid user of burn charts. Sarina uses a desktop variant (and has her own style). Jess doesn’t entirely see the appeal. What’s the difference between a burn chart and to-do list? Maybe nothing, if your to-do list goes all the way to the end of your project—and maybe everything, if you’re not paying attention to the difference between what you’ve got on your list, and what has to be done by when and by who in order to meet a deadline. This week on the podcast, KJ tries to talk Jess into the burn chart mindset, Sarina talks whole book project management, and we all come down to a how-to for finding a progress tracker that works for you.Episode links and a transcript follow—but first, a preview of the #WritersTopFive that will be dropping into #AmWriting supporter inboxes on Monday, September 9, 2019: Top 5 Reasons You Need a Burn Chart. Not joined that club yet? You’ll want to get on that. Support the podcast you love AND get weekly #WriterTopFives with actionable advice you can use for just $7 a month. As always, this episode (and every episode) will appear for all subscribers in your usual podcast listening places, totally free as the #AmWriting Podcast has always been. This shownotes email is free, too, so please—forward it to a friend, and if you haven’t already, join our email list and be on top of it with the shownotes and a transcript every time there’s a new episode. To support the podcast and help it stay free, subscribe to our weekly #WritersTopFive email.LINKS FROM THE PODCASTPacemaker PlannerKJ’s Burn charts: Happier Parent, left; The Chicken Sisters revision, right.Sarina’s Pacemarker chart, left and burn-up columns, right.#AmReading (Watching, Listening)KJ: The Beautiful No, Sheri Salata (As you consider this one, you might want to take a look at KJ’s Goodreads review here.)The Writer Files (a podcast)Sarina: The Rest of the Story, Sarah DessenJess: Daisy Jones and The Six, Taylor Jenkins ReidDani Shapiro’s Family Secrets (a podcast)#FaveIndieBookstoreNorwich Bookstore, Norwich, VTThis episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwritingfor details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)KJ:                                00:01                Hey all. As you likely know, the one and only sponsor of the #AmWriting podcast is Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps writers all the way through their projects to the very end. Usually Author Accelerator offers only longterm coaching and they're great at it, but they've just launched something new inside outline coaching, a four week long program for novelists and memoir writers that can help you find just the right amount of structure so that you can plot or pants your way to an actual draft. I love the inside outline and I think you will too. I come back to mine again and again, whether I'm writing or revising. Working through it with someone else helps keep you honest and helps you deliver a story structure that works. Find out more at www.authoraccelerator.com/insideoutline.Jess:                             00:57                Go ahead.KJ:                                00:58                This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I was supposed to be doing.Jess:                             01:02                All right, let's start over.KJ:                                01:03                Awkward pause, I'm going to rustle some papers.Jess:                             01:06                Okay.KJ:                                01:06                Now one, two, three.KJ:                                01:15                Hey, welcome to #AmWriting podcast.Jess:                             01:18                I'm Jess Lahey. I'm the author of the Gift of Failure and some articles you can find if you Google my name and a forthcoming book on preventing substance abuse in kids.Sarina:                          01:28                I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of 30 romance novels. The next one will be called Moonlighter.KJ:                                01:35                And I am KJ Dell'Antonia, author of How to Be a Happier Parent, former lead editor and writer for the New York Times Motherlode blog and author of a novel forthcoming next summer, a beach read. And if you are a regular listener, you might've noticed a little difference in our introduction today because we are now #AmWriting The Podcast and now with more Sarina.Jess:                             02:01                Now with more Sarina and you may have noticed some weird hesitation in our voices as we were doing the intro cause it's been a couple of years doing the regular intro and I'm happy to make a change.KJ:                                02:11                Yeah, this fall we're sparking it up. There's going to be three of us sometimes. We're going to do lots of interviews, we're going to do some great new projects that we are excited about. But today we're just doing a podcast on one of my favorite dear to my heart topics, which is the burn chart.Jess:                             02:33                This is very timely because in the #AmWriting Facebook group, someone posted just a few days ago, could someone please explain this whole tracking software burn chart thing. And we've talked about burn charts a couple of times because KJ likes them. And because I've never really used them, I wanted to know more about how to use them, especially, you know, with this deadline looming. But you and Sarina are so good at planning your time I think it's something I could really learn from.KJ:                                03:03                Well that was something I was thinking about was I thinking, is there a difference between a burn chart and a to do list? And the answer is not necessarily, If your to do list goes all the way to the end.Jess:                             03:19                Well, where are we now? KJ, you still use burn charts? Sarina, do you use burn charts?Sarina:                          03:24                Well, I use a thing called Pacemaker and I can't wait to hear how much like or different it is from KJ's burn chart.Jess:                             03:32                Okay.KJ:                                03:32                And this is perfect because that is clearly a software thing, right?Sarina:                          03:37                Yup.KJ:                                03:37                Yeah. So I, I'm the paper burn chart. You, you are the digital version. All right.Jess:                             03:44                And I'm the one who just sits in the chair and hopes that I get enough words on the page to meet my deadline in October.KJ:                                03:51                Yeah. Well I mean I hope you're doing a little bit more than hoping, but if not, Hey, we've got time. We've got time to like rein you in. All right, so a burn chart is a physical manifestation of two things and one is the amount of time that you have to go towards your deadline. And the other is your is tangible markers of your progress towards that deadline. So just to really make it incredibly easy. If for some reason you knew that you had to write 10,000 words and it doesn't matter what they say, just that you just have to write 10,000 words and then you have five days in which to do it. Obviously at the end of every day you need to check off that you have written 2000 words. That would be very easy. You would make one side of your chart, 2000 words, 4,000 words, 6,000 words that you know, and then the other side, the days. And then you would draw a little straight line. And if you got there you'd be right on your line. And if you wrote 2,300 words, you'd be a little above or below your line depending on how you want to measure it. And so really the key is that you have divided the work that you have to do up into measurable....Jess:                             05:28                achievable...KJ:                                05:28                Well that's an interesting piece of it. So when I created my burn chart for The Chicken Sisters revision, I had exactly 30 days and I had 27 chapters and I went through and I had a list of the chapters. So I wrote out the chapters and I thought, well, these are in pretty good shape, so I ought to be able to do these together and this one's not in bad shape so I sort of tried to chunk them together. And it turned out that after two days I was dramatically wrong. But what was really good because I had sort of drawn this line of where I thought I could get to and I very quickly realized I couldn't do nearly as much as I thought that I could. So I was able to sort of quickly rejigger the chart right away. And if I hadn't been able to rejigger the chart, I could have quickly asked for another two weeks because it was immediately clear that I was only going to be able to manage one chapter a day, tops. And some days I wasn't even able to manage that, but fortunately it turned out to sort of all zip along at the end. So you have to be able to define an achievable goal, yes. But that's kind of problematic because if you've got 30 days and 40 chapters and all you can do as a chapter a day, then there you are. You know, your deadline is not gonna work.Jess:                             07:00                Yeah.KJ:                                07:00                So that's part of the reason to create a burn chart.Jess:                             07:02                Well, and the nice thing about your burn charts, KJ, having looked at them many times with great envy is I remember when you were writing How to Be a Happier Parent, you had these very pretty burn charts that have an X axis and a Y axis and a line that goes down to zero. And by the time you're done, your little line meets the bottom line and you're down at zero and it looks all pretty. And I remember seeing one of those and thinking, Oh well wouldn't that be satisfying?KJ:                                07:31                It is satisfying. Yeah I've got the Happier Parent one here now. And that was one where I divided the work into chunks that were sort of only coherent to me because it might be outline this, and draft this, and revise that. But as long as I got through, I think I was at a three chunk a day plan, cause I had a pretty solid idea of what I could and couldn't do. Now on The Chicken Sisters chart I also made a funny mistake. I did the axises wrong. It's hard trying to think how to explain it, but the way that I did it, it wasn't satisfying. So if I, if I achieved more than I thought I would achieve because I had put the chapters all along the bottom there wasn't sort of, if I marked that I had colored it in, it didn't look good. It didn't look like I was doing something. So I turned it sideways.Jess:                             08:36                It needs to look really satisfying. You either have to be coloring - we'll put all these pictures up on the website - but it needs to look satisfying. You need to be either creating a long bar of color or you need to be reaching some zero end point.KJ:                                08:51                Yeah. And you can burn up. So you could have like if its the first day of the month and you need to get one chunk down or one chapter done so you put the day on the up and down axis and the achievement and then you sort of color it in and the next day you get and see you can go up or you can, as I did with Happier Parent, you can count down because I needed to cross things off. So I started off at the upper left hand corner and I burned down.Jess:                             09:25                Okay. That makes sense.KJ:                                09:27                I checked things off. But in Chicken Sisters I did the axis backwards. I ended up burning up, burning up was more satisfying.Jess:                             09:41                Okay.KJ:                                09:42                So how does this compare to doing it on Pacemaker, Sarina?Sarina:                          09:45                You know, it's kind of similar. With Pacemaker you tell it what you're doing. So, drafting as opposed to revising and and then you tell it how many words you need to go.Jess:                             10:00                Was this designed for writing specifically?Sarina:                          10:02                Yes.Jess:                             10:03                Oh, okay.Sarina:                          10:04                And then you give it your deadline. What I do enjoy is that you can finesse a little bit with telling it when you're not going to work. Like I had two trips this month and I was able to tell Pacemaker that I would not be writing on those days. And the nice thing about that is that it's always recalculating. So right now it tells me that on this project I have 11 days left and over those 11 days I have 15,800 words to go. And so it very handily lets me know that I need to write 1,317 words each day to get to my target of 90,000 total words.Jess:                             10:56                So if you do that or don't do that, do you tell the app or is it integrated with whatever you're using to write?Sarina:                          11:01                No, It's not integrated. It's just a satisfying thing to open up the Pacemaker window and enter my new total word count.Jess:                             11:10                Is it on your phone or on your computer?Sarina:                          11:12                It's a desktop app, which I admit is not very 2019.Jess:                             11:16                Okay. ,KJ:                                11:18                But this would work really well for either drafting - and I'm assuming if you get to 80,763 words and you write the end, you're going to count that.Sarina:                          11:32                Of course.KJ:                                11:33                It would work really well for that or for revising where you could put in the number of words that you have.Jess:                             11:43                How does it work for revising specifically?Sarina:                          11:45                Well, I was just doing a revision on something else and I would have entered it the same way where I would have just told it how many words were left in the unrevised part of the document or rather how many were in the revised part. But it's actually kind of flexible. I think you can instead just tell it how many revision words you've covered that day. You can make it do a lot of what you might want to do.Jess:                             12:12                Okay. So what happens if, like today for example, my plan is to submit the chapter I'm working on right now to my agent by the end of the day. I was feeling really good about it yesterday and then I dove back into the beginning and I said, Oh heck, this stinks. I have to redo. You know, what ended up being a whole morning's worth of work. And I think I can still get it done. But how does a program like that account for the fact that what you've got is not always what you think you've got? Or can it?Sarina:                          12:42                Obviously it can't, but it just recalibrates so I like to keep things so that my daily word count than I need to accomplish is 1200 words or lower. Like I, I feel good about life when that line marching across the screen says you have to do 1200 words every day to stay ahead. And now yesterday I didn't write anything, but I did a lot of thinking about what was wrong with this book and what I needed to do to fix it. So today when I opened up the window, it said, guess what, honey? You've got to do 1300 instead of 12, just to keep your head above this ocean and and so obviously I slipped there a little bit, but you know, if I put up 1500 words today, which let's face it is not an insane number, then it'll start to go back in the right direction.Jess:                             13:37                Okay.KJ:                                13:37                So I guess it just depends on what it is you're needing to measure. I mean, I admit my burn charts tend to be sort of like complicated multi page affairs because for example, if I was doing what you are doing, Jess, and if I had chapters that needed to go through phases, so you need to draft it, then you need to send it to your agent, then you're probably gonna revise it, then you're going to send it to your editor. When I'm doing that, I allow time for those other people's involvement. So, if I were where you are...Jess:                             14:14                ...you would be in a total panic.KJ:                                14:16                I would be in a total panic, utter and total sympathy and props for you. After I was done breathing into the paper bag under my desk, I would come out and I would make a list and I mean that's the thing, you just want to use the list.KJ:                                14:29                I'm looking at my How to Be a Happier Parent and I listed the chapters and then I checked off: had I outlined it, had I drafted it, had it gone to my agent, had I revised it. I actually was not sending chapters to my editor so I didn't have that as a piece. And there was a point when I sort of had estimated the percentage that things were drafted and things were a little crazy. But I was allowing for for that process so that when the last chapter that was going to my agent was going to my agent, I would be on say, revising the first three chapters. So I made these really sort of monstrous multi page lists. And then what I did was to figure - each one of these is going to take me three hours, let's add up all the three hours, and then divide it by the amount of time that I have left and, and sort of lay it out there. And one of the reasons to do that is so that you can see if you're going to be able, because sometimes you set a deadline you can't hit. And it's so much better to recognize that five days into working with your burn chart when you're like, wait a minute, I'm seven chunks underwater or 12,000 words underwater. Then you can reach out to everyone else involved because when it's a visual reminder, you can't fool yourself. You can't every day go 'I worked really hard, I did everything I possibly could because there are circumstances when everything you possibly could isn't going to get you to October 1st with, with the book.Jess:                             16:24                Well, and that's why we changed this deadline to begin with. I mean, I hit May and realized, Oh yeah, July 1st is not gonna happen. And I actually went to my agent before she had planned to come to me on May 1st and I got to her before that to say, yeah, we need to change this. But my little sort of clue to myself when something is done - mine's a lot simpler than yours in the sense that what I do is keep that all those chapters on the left hand side of my page in Scrivener. I close the folder when that chapter is done or out or off to edit. The nice thing for me is I can see, all the time, on the left hand side of the page things that I need to put cues for, where I'm headed. Oh, don't forget that in chapter seven, I'm going to say such and such. So I have sort of a nice low visual cue on the side, but it's really pretty simple for me. I don't really have a strategy as involved. Right now I'm in the 'just keep my head down and keep plowing through' and I always worry that if I take time to do things like make a very fancy burn chart, which would be a wonderful procrastination strategy for me right now, that I'm just using up time on something when I should just be sitting at my desk writing the words.KJ:                                17:39                Well that is a know yourself thing and it's probably helped by the fact that you've written this kind of book before.Jess:                             17:46                What's really weird about that though is that I don't have a burn chart for Gift to Failure. Every once in a while I look around and I think, did I really write that book? Because I don't remember how that even happened. It's like that labor thing with childbirth and labor, you know, the only reason you do another one is cause you forget what it was like the first time around.Sarina:                          18:08                I experience that too, I've had to go back into my own books a lot this month to see what I said about certain secondary characters and, and there'll be a joke in there and I'm like, I don't really remember where that came from.KJ:                                18:26                Yeah, I'm having that too. Sarina, one thing I was thinking of when I was looking back at my 2017 journal because I wanted to find the How to Be a Happier Parent burn chart. And I could see all the different places where I'd put up goals and where I'd listed what the different chunks were and sort of re-revised again what I needed to do. And for me that's a keep your mind on track thing. Sarina, I know that at the beginning of a big season of writing, you'll be like, I'm shooting for three books and a serial and these are my different deadlines. And I imagine you sort of sticking up giant post-its to put the different deadlines places. And I feel like it's almost a different kind of big burn chart cause again, it's that visual.Sarina:                          19:30                It is and actually I was just doing that last weekend and it's so much harder than figuring out how many words you can write in a month. What I was struggling with is project management really. So I have this book that I need to turn into my editor on October 9, but having that editorial date set up was a to do list item that had to come into my life sometimes between deciding to write the book and choosing a publication date for it. Because once I finish a project, there are all these other people that have to be involved and that's where all the stress comes from. So for this book I had to hire a cover designer and we had to establish a date for that and I had to hire an editor because my previous editor is leaving the business and I had to hire both male and female narrators. And this morning I woke up to the knowledge that I hadn't asked my audio engineer to do the post production on the audio book yet. So it's all those deadlines that really make me crazy because you can't sit there quietly with your bar chart in your notebook and you're not in control of your own destiny up to a point. So I've been really struggling with that lately.Jess:                             20:55                That would be panic inducing for me. I mean the idea that on top of writing this book, I also need to be out there figuring out who my narrators are and what my post production stuff is going to look like. I mean, it's a much more complicated picture and I think the analogy of project management is really apt. I think that works. Anyone who's worked in the business world and had to keep together some large project like that with many sort of that many headed Hydra situation. I think that's a really good comparison.KJ:                                21:25                Well that is the world the burn chart prompts from. You know, the original use of a burn chart is techies developing software and they would put it up in a group workspace and maybe everybody's pieces would line and basically what they would do is set up targets. You know, everybody needs to have written their chunks of code to achieve this piece of creating the like button for Facebook or whatever. And then, those are going to go off to the bug checkers while we move on. So that's where the burn chart idea came from. So it can be perfect for managing a lot of moving parts and keeping track of whether your other people are doing what you need. Like, right now I've revised and somebody else has my revision and I'm pencils down and I can't do anything. But I'm still very aware of the day that my editor is expecting to have this revision back. You just can't have any illusions when you've written it down. And I don't think you have any illusions. It's almost just a question of whether or not it's satisfying for you to see it laid out or if it's useful. And if it's not, it's not.Jess:                             22:56                I'm also one of those people that I can be completely gung ho about something on one day and I'm all excited and I charted out and for like two days I'll track my progress and then I'll forget. And then it's over. For me, when I'm not focused on the process itself, I tend to lose track of the other details. But I like looking at your burn charts, they're very pretty. And I love looking at Sarina's charts cause her charts are gorgeous and I'm very impressed by all of it. For me, right now I don't know, maybe it's just because I'm in such a state of panic.KJ:                                23:31                I just have to say that the idea to me of being where you are without this checklist, visual reminder of what still has to be done. Like, I would lay awake at night mentally drawing little boxes and creating a to do list. And I think some people are just like that. I have another friend and she's exactly like that. Like in every project there's that phase where it's all so amorphous, you can't make the list.Jess:                             24:04                That's how I am at the very beginning. But now I have a mental picture of where each of the chapters are.KJ:                                24:12                Yeah. And once I get to the point where I can make that list I need to make the list. You know what it's like? It's like that whole David Allen's Getting It Done book where he's just like some of us just need to write it all down. And if that frees your brain to go, Oh, okay, it's somewhere, it's somewhere, like I'm not going to lose that.Sarina:                          24:39                I'm definitely in that camp.KJ:                                24:40                It sounds like you're not, Jess. I mean, it is somewhere, it's in your Scrivener and that's enough to make your brain go, okay.Jess:                             24:53                Well, and actually that's a good point. If I was using Microsoft Word for this, and I had no central location where all the chapters were in folders. Like the very first thing I did at the beginning was arrange all of the research into the various chapters and then I had the outlines. And so for me, Scrivener has been invaluable because it allows me to quantify to a certain extent where I am with each chapter and that's what gives me some peace - is being able to see those chapter headings with those folders, with that stuff, with the text I've already created and maybe the fragments that I've cut out - that to me is sort of burn chart-y. Kind of, without the end point.Sarina:                          25:32                Jess, do you know the trick about you can import your own icons for those left hand column?Jess:                             25:40                No, I did not do that, but I'm sure I could spend a good two hours on that this afternoon instead of finishing this chapter.KJ:                                25:45                That sounds like a good rabbit hole. Oh, I want this one to look like a little folder.Jess:                             25:50                That's the problem with Sarina. Sarina's got all these pretty little add ons for things. So for example, she's the one who taught me how to use Link Tree in Instagram and she spent the $6.99 to get the very pretty version. And I have the basic version. I was very tempted to go for the pretty version. And then I thought through the process of like getting all those icons and making it look pretty and I said, and we're sticking with the basics because I knew I couldn't go there. It would've been a very fun little endeavor, but not today. Anyway, things are going great. I did have a dream night before last that you guys will appreciate. So, as you guys know, my deadline is in October and I have scheduled a vacation starting the day after I hand it in. And my in-laws are going to be there and my husband's going to be there and I'm speaking at a spa at Canyon Ranch and so it's like a built in vacation. But also I'm working while I'm there and it gives me a place to relax at the same time and I want it done so that I can focus on the relaxation part. And I dreamed the other night that I was at Canyon Ranch and I could not relax and I couldn't figure out why I couldn't relax. And I was thinking and thinking and then I realized it's because I never turned my book in. It was horrible.Sarina:                          27:11                So did you also forget to put your pants on because that's pretty much the same chain.Jess:                             27:20                Well actually what's really funny about that is the day after I turned in Gift of Failure was the day that I went horseback riding and got thrown from the horse and bonked my head and did really forget that I had written a book. When Tim was leading me back from where I bumped my head and got the concussion and he was trying to see what was happening with my memory and he quizzed me on my book and what it was about and the names of my children and I did not know any of those things. And so really it was sort of like a little bit of a throwback to the day I completely forgot that I'd written a book at all, even though I had written the whole book and handed in it on time, no ahead of time. I think a whole day ahead of time. That's exciting.KJ:                                28:06                Well you're taking anxiety dreams to a whole new level.Jess:                             28:09                We did have someone on the Facebook on the #AmWriting Facebook page who announced that she handed in her manuscript with, I think she said 28 minutes to spare and she was very happy with herself. Does anyone have anything else to say about burn charts? We will put pictures on the website so that people can see what they actually look like because you guys do some beautiful work when it comes to that kind of stuff. I'm very impressed.KJ:                                28:35                It is a pleasure, it's an indulgence. We're recording in the last week of August and I think by the time this is live, it's just going to be the first week of September. But this is the week for me when I need to put all my September charts together and things like that. Sarina has already done hers, she was showing them to me.Jess:                             29:02                Sarina's the one who has already gotten us our 2020 agendas. So of course she already has her September charts.Sarina:                          29:10                I'm ready.KJ:                                29:12                And some things just don't lend themselves to burn charting. Like if you're drafting, Pacemaker sounds like it would be better. It's almost like you only need a burn chart if it is complicated and it's only satisfying if it is complicated. If you're just drafting then, stickers on a day. I didn't do a burn chart for Chicken Sisters until I was revising. I didn't do a burn chart for drafting it because it wasn't like that. It didn't have that many moving pieces. Unlike when I was doing the nonfiction and it was going to the agent and it was moving all over the place.Jess:                             29:53                Well, and I'm looking at my calendar right now and I do stickers. I'm using the polar bears that Sarina gave me in the middle of summer, which makes perfect sense. I'm using my stickers. I think my stickers are for 1200 words or something, but most days I'm double or triple stickering simply because I have to, or getting negative numbers because I'm editing. But really stickers are kind of irrelevant for me now. It's about time and progress and feeling good about where I am.Sarina:                          30:22                Awesome.Jess:                             30:23                Yes. Gold stars. The other thing that was a big deal for me was I canceled and rescheduled a lot of things that I just couldn't do. And I've said no to blurbing some things and I've said no to interviews. But when I got my last contracted piece out to the New York Times, I have a few edits to do, that was sort of a big, dust my hands off and say, whew, now I'm just focusing back on the book stuff. So that was a big deal too. But anyway. Alright. Do we want to talk about what we've been reading?KJ:                                30:56                We did.Jess:                             30:56                Alright. I can't go first cause I haven't thought yet.KJ:                                31:00                Oh, okay. I can go first because I have thought and it is actually kind of funny except I have to flail through my phone to go back. So I read a book called The Beautiful No and Other Tales of Trial, Transcendence, and Transformation. The author is Sheri Salata and she was the executive producer of the Oprah show for a long time. This is what I'm going to say about this book. In my opinion, there are three kinds of people. Well there are three reactions when someone tells you that they've seen an animal psychic, right? And the first one is WTF. I mean that's number one. The second one is sort of an amused interest and open to the possibility that you might sort of learn something in that process with some humor and a fair amount of, you know, a bucket of salt and some sort of personal, I'm taking something from this cause it's cool but I'm not entirely bad. Right? So that would be the second. And the third one is all in, baby, animal psychic, tell me what my dogs are thinking. So this book, The Beautiful No, this is a book for people in category three. And if that is you, this is the book for you, go for it. That is what I've got to say.Sarina:                          32:46                I'm stuck on....is animal psychic a metaphor here or?KJ:                                32:54                No, not even a little bit. And I have had someone look me in the face and say, I have called an animal psychic and I am a two person. I am okay, that's a really interesting thing that you've done and I would love to hear more about it. And if in the process you felt that you gained something, I would love to know about that. But if we can also kind of laugh at the idea, that would be good too. That's me. I am a two. I am not one, I'm not gonna cross you off my friend list. But I'm also not three and this is really a book for three. You need to be all in with the animal psychic to enjoy this. Although I have to say I kind of couldn't put it down.Jess:                             33:47                Well that's an interesting review.KJ:                                33:51                It's not exactly a negative review, nor is it exactly positive, it's just very specific.Jess:                             33:57                Alright. Sarina, what you got?Sarina:                          34:00                Well, I read a pile of books in July, but August for various deadline reasons does not look the same. I am very slowly reading The Rest of the Story by Sarah Dessen and she writes beautiful, measured, contemporary YA novels. And this one I'm certain when I'm able to give it more time, will not disappoint.Jess:                             34:21                You're going to have to tell me at some point, I've never gone down the Sarah Dessen rabbit hole and I know you're a fan, so at some point you're going to have to tell me your favorite one so that I can start with that one. So I've had a weird reading month. I felt like I couldn't start a new book that would really suck me in because then it would be really tempted to listen a lot. So I have been listening to something that has completely sucked me in, but it's episodic, which is Dani Shapiro's Family Secrets podcast and it's essentially juicy family secrets in bite-sized chunks. And it's completely addictive, but you also have an end point, which is exactly what I have needed. I also have to say, you know those books that you feel like enough people told you that you would really like it, so you really keep sticking with it? And then finally you just throw your hands up in the air and say, forget it. I'm going to give up because I just can't do it. That's how I felt about The Snowman by Jo Nesbo. I tried so hard with that book. I really, really did. I just could not care less. So that's where I was with that one. But I also do have one to recommend. A couple of our guests recommended Daisy Jones and The Six by Taylor Jenkins Reid, and in audio form it's absolutely delightful. It's that book that's about an imaginary rock band during the 70's and set in Los Angeles. And they have a different voice actor for every character and they're all well-known actors. It's a little bit like Lincoln and the Bardo in that sense. Really, really good audio book. But again, it's something that I can listen to in chunks instead of getting completely sucked in from a narrative perspective. So anyway, that's what I've been listening to Family Secrets by Dani Shapiro. You've got to listen to.KJ:                                36:20                Yeah, I wanted to throw a podcast out there too. The new one that I tried because I wanted to listen to Jenny Nash. When I'm feeling stressed about my writing, I like to find a podcast that Jenny has been on and just listen to it. I don't even necessarily really listen, it just makes parts of my brain start thinking. Anyway, she was on a podcast called The Writer Files and I discovered that that was going to be a new podcast for me. I really like it.Jess:                             36:51                She always puts things in ways that are hopeful and optimistic and reality-based, things that feel like they're huge and I can't get my arms around them. Suddenly Jenny has explained them in such a way where I'm like, Oh, I could totally do that. I love listening to her. Sarina, I don't think you've ever done an indie bookstore shout out. Do you have one that you could do for us?Sarina:                          37:15                I'm sure if I did, you have would have already covered it since we cover the same ground here.Jess:                             37:20                Yeah, that's true. But you've been places we haven't been.KJ:                                37:25                I don't think we've ever shouted out our local bookstore where I need to pop in today. Our current local bookstore since we've got one that closed fairly recently and another that's going to open soon. But you know, let's shout out the Norwich bookstore.Sarina:                          37:38                Oh definitely.Jess:                             37:39                They're worth shouting out again, absolutely. Cause they're so great.KJ:                                37:43                I mean always brilliantly curated. One of the things I love about them is that they have a website where I can order the book and then when it comes in, I pop in and I've already paid for it and it's ready. They wrap it in brown paper and put it up on the shelf like I was ordering. So I find that kind of amusing in case I don't want anyone to know that I'm reading The Beautiful No, which maybe I don't.Sarina:                          38:13                Do you know how I order from there? I just email Liza the owner and I say, could you please get these three books for me? And then she emails back a week later and says they're waiting and then I go in and pay.KJ:                                38:26                That would be easier. I should do it that way. I do it on their website and every single time the website says that is not your password. You need to create a new password. And I have written this password and it is the password.Sarina:                          38:38                I guess my method circumvents that and I think, what's the point of shopping local if you can't just fire off an email. But I will say the adorable thing about it is that I did some months ago email and say, Hey, could you please get me Barron's Guide to Colleges? And the email that came back said, Dear Sarina, I can't believe that the child for whom you were just buying picture books needs this Guide to Colleges. I know. And she was right.Jess:                             39:19                That's really sweet actually. I have to say, I was looking through pictures recently and I found a picture of my 15 year old when he was an infant asleep on that bear that they used to have at the Dartmouth bookstore. That used

When looking to change things in your world, how do you let pleasure be the force that guides you? How do you fulfill desire while you fight for change? How do you take care of yourself while you transform? And how do you allow organic, sustainable change to emerge in your life - without feeling like you have to force things? Today we’re speaking with author, activist, and healer adrienne maree brown. Her most recent book, the New York Times bestseller “Pleasure Activism”, leans into black feminist traditions to challenge you to rethink the groundrules of how to facilitate change in your own life, and in the world around you. In this episode, you’ll hear more about how adrienne came to this work, and her thoughts on how to be imperfect, yet honest, in relationship. You’ll learn how to bring true integrity into your relationships - and ways to ensure that your health and wellbeing aren’t compromised while you grow and transform.  As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Beautiful jewelry, exquisite craftsmanship, sustainable sources, and affordable prices. Get $75 OFF your purchase at hellonoemie.com when you use the coupon code "ALIVE". With free overnight shipping and free returns, you can see something online today, and try it on tomorrow risk free. Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources: Visit adrienne maree brown’s website to learn more about her books and her other projects. Pick up a copy of Pleasure Activism by adrienne maree brown on Amazon. Listen to Episode 12 on the Healing Justice podcast for a Somatic Centering practice. FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict and shifting the codependent patterns in your relationship Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Your Relationship (ALSO FREE) Visit www.neilsattin.com/amb to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with adrienne maree brown. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host Neil Sattin. I want to start by saying that I believe in the power of synchronicity. I believe that when synchronicities happen it means something. And so to me it meant a lot when I was walking into a bookstore with a new friend of mine in New York City and she grabbed this book off the shelf and she said, "Given what we've just been talking about how you want to make this huge impact with your work and with the Relationship Alive podcast you need to read this book." And she handed me a book called "Emergent Strategy" by adrienne maree brown.  adrienne maree brown: Oh wow.  Neil Sattin: Yeah. And after reading that book and being so moved by what I read there both in terms of the promise that it holds for how our lives can unfold in a way that's really organic and natural and suited to who we are as people and also how that can impact the communities that we form whether it be our micro communities our family, our friends, or our larger communities, the movements that we become a part of and how we create change in this world. It was just super inspiring to me and I was delighted to see that adrienne was coming out with a new book called "Pleasure Activism," which just hit the New York Times Bestseller List and I thought you know what, like, I have to talk to this person and hopefully they'll talk to me. So. So I reached out and fortunately here we are today to talk to adrienne maree brown, who is a social justice facilitator, focused on black liberation, a doula, healer and a pleasure activist and a coach. And the list goes on and on. And honestly I can relate and I love that about...  adrienne maree brown: Yeah.  Neil Sattin: About her work. And so we're gonna be here to talk about emergence and pleasure and how this all unfolds in the world of relationship. The relationship you have to yourself, the relationship you have to your beloved or beloveds, and the relationship you have with the world. As usual we will have a detailed transcript of today's episode which you can get if you visit Neil Sattin-dot-com-slash-A-M-B as in adrienne maree brown or you can always text the word "passion" to the number 3 3 4 4 4 and follow the instructions. And that will get you the transcript and the show notes and all that good stuff.  adrienne maree brown: Oh cool.  Neil Sattin: I think that's it. So adrienne, thank you so much for being here with us today on Relationship Alive.  adrienne maree brown: Thanks for having me now. I'm excited that a podcast it's about relationships in this way, exists. So I'm like yay! Let's talk about it.  Neil Sattin: Awesome. Yeah I've been thinking about a good way to dive in without asking you like a ridiculously broad question, but I might have to start with a ridiculously broad question.:.  adrienne maree brown: You're like, I tried! I can't. It's ok. What's the  ridiculously broad question.  Neil Sattin: Well. Yeah. So let's start with this idea about pleasure and activism and what does it mean to have pleasure be the center of how one operates in the world? adrienne maree brown: For me, you know, I got this terminology, was taught to me and I learned the words from an organizer named Keith Cyler, who was the founder of something called "Housing Works," that's based in New York that raises resources and all kinds of resources like financial resources, but also does trainings and other things like that for people who are dealing with house-lessness, dealing with HIV, AIDS. And I was really moved by his genius and his work. But, one time we were just sitting around having a good time and he talked to me about this terminology "pleasure activism," and it stuck with me over the years so I kept being like "Oh. Like what could that mean? What could that mean? What could that mean?" And especially as I I grew, you know, I've always been very aware that there's a lot in the world that is broken that is hurting that is traumatized, and inside of that reaching for how are we meant to connect with each other? And somewhere in there this idea of pleasure activism kept returning to me as I was doing voter organizing, returning to me as I was learning about harm reduction, returning to me as I was supporting people to do direct action, nonviolent civil disobedience. It just kept coming back. And when I was working on my last book emergent strategy, I had to include it as a concept and I wasn't sure at that point like am I going to flesh this all the way out? Like there's a lot here. But then at some point I was like, "Let me just.... Like what would it look like." You know, what would it look like to actually flesh this out? And I had been reading Audrey Lorde's text "the uses of the erotic:: as power," which I got permission to reprint in this book. And I really loved her use of the erotic. And yet I just kept coming back to this idea of pleasure. Like that pleasure includes the erotic, but also includes a lot of things that may or may not be erotic, and so I was like, what is pleasure. And I looked up and its just like happy, joy and satisfaction. And I was like, "Gosh it seems so simple and yet there's so much resistance to it. There's so much fear of it there's so much control of it. And. And for those of us who are like actively trying to change the world in some way there's a denial of it, right? Like it's like, "We are not allowed to have that. We need to be fighting for this you know future that's off in the future somewhere.".  Neil Sattin: Right.  adrienne maree brown: And I just remember landing and like. Wouldn't it be so radical to listen to Audrey Lourde had taught us about engaging the erotic now, engaging our full aliveness, in this moment. And for black women who, you know, that's who is at the front of my mind when I wrote this text, you know, I was like there's a lot that has intentionally cut us off from our relationship with joy and happiness and pleasure and contentment and satisfaction. It's been trained into us that we're not allowed to have those things so I got very... Then I got very light lit up with this idea, that I was like, "Oh what if we could have these things? Like what if it's a measure of our freedom to reclaim pleasure?" And so that kind of sent me off down this path that has been really exciting. And you know it's interesting because activism in general is not where I land right? Like I, I've often been like I'm an organizer! And for me the distinction you know, I think activists or folks who are really like advocating for something like using their public sphere to advocate for something, going and talking to friends. Organizers to me or folks who are like, "I'm actually trying to move a strategy amongst the people." Right? Like I'm going to go find those who are not going to just easily be reached and I'm going to knock on their doors and I'm going to find out what they need and and build an analysis and a vision together. And so you know it's like, "OK is activism OK for this? And it felt like actually for this, it is it is important that as many people in the world as possible begin to come out and advocate for all of our rights to have pleasure to have pleasure be an organizing principle of how we structure our relationships in our society. And then it starts with reclaiming our own, and moves out from that place. So I'm excited that it exists. I'm excited that it came together and then I've been really blown away by the responses. So I'm like, OK this... I really for a while was like, "This is not the time to be putting out right now. We need something about justice or we need something about like you know I kept having this strategic idea around if this current administration is starting fires all over the place. I kept thinking like, how do we conjure up water? How do we vaporize ourselves in some way to come up and over and rain down on them? And I was like, I got to go write that strategy book or whatever. And then I realized I was like, "Oh this is actually it," in a way?  Neil Sattin: This is that book.  adrienne maree brown: This is actually that book and that's been clicking to me that I'm like: This is it. This is the way that we become more powerful through pleasure, through what we can release rather than what we can contain. So. Yeah.  Neil Sattin: I love it. It's to me... What was I mean there are so many threads that came together for me as I was reading the book, and even just in hearing you speak right now. Primarily, that way that people are so.... Many people, I should say are so exhausted right now, with with just the state of affairs and....  adrienne maree brown: That's right.  Neil Sattin: ...that's political, it's environmental it's economic. There is a lot that's taxing us and that's something that regenerates us when we can find the sources of pleasure within us and in how we connect with the world that I think allows us to bring more of ourselves to the world and and also highlights the places where we are denying ourselves or denying others that inalienable right for...  adrienne maree brown: That's right.  Neil Sattin: ...the experience of joy.  adrienne maree brown: That's right.:I mean it blows my mind to really think about, like, what people what people have survived, like often when I stand in a room of people and I'm giving a speech or a talk or a training or something. There's a lot of me that's present with that moment but then there's also a part of me that's kind of thinking about all the lineages of all these human beings and how some of them in this moment have landed in a place of power, or privilege, and some of them haven't ended up in a place that's not that. But that those lineages all include some survival, some fighting to exist some taking a risk, some you know, moving out into the world with an unknown response you know, like we don't know what's going to happen here. We don't know if we're heading the right way. We don't know if we're going to survive and that there have been so many things that have have you know, like so much of our human history has just been about surviving, right? Just like can we make it? And so there's something interesting to me now to be like, I think I think we have shown that like oh we could make it like we could figure this out. We could be on this planet technically. But what is the life worth making it for? Like, what is worth surviving for?: Neil Sattin: Yeah.  adrienne maree brown: And now I think we're actively in that question. That is like, all of us deserve this relationship to pleasure. And when you look at like who thinks they deserve it or who is encouraged to have it, it's actually a very narrow small grouping of human beings. And I think that's because of capitalism. You know, I really think that as an economic system, capitalism thrives when we believe that we are not good enough and that we need to buy something outside of ourselves in order to experience pleasure. And I love the trick of it which is like, if you actually just drop down into your own body, which is the only thing in your entire life that you ever truly have, from the beginning to the end, if you just drop down into it, it's wired for pleasure. And those wires may have been crossed, you know, there may be some like dysfunctional parts of it because of trauma, because of pain, because of... which I now, also when I meet everyone, I'm like, 'I know you have some trauma," right? Like, I know you have some.  Neil Sattin: Yeah no one escapes that.  adrienne maree brown: Yeah. I don't know what it is. I don't know how severe or central it is to your life, or your life story it is to your life, or your life story. I don't know if you had the resources to recover or not, but I know it's there. And so I think like, "oh." What we're dealing with is like, what is the relationship between that trauma that's everywhere. And this system that's telling us that we can't heal ourselves we shouldn't even feel ourselves. We should just kind of outsource that to something we can purchase. And, and, then how in that do we find a way to be in RIGHT relationship with each other on this planet. Right? So that's the stuff I keep, I keep floating around with us like I want to, I want to leave a world behind me that people like I like I feel very compelled. I want to be here. It feels good, right? And that doesn't mean that I think we will solve the climate crisis in my lifetime because I do think... You know...  I really believe in Gopal Dayaneni, 1who works over at Movement Generation and talks about, like, there's things that we have already set in motion that we are gonna have to face the consequences of as a species. And I don't deny that that's what's coming to us but inside of that I think we also have to be actively fomenting pleasure and actively fomenting like reconnecting ourselves to land and to each other because as the changes happen we're still going to need to be able to feel, feel pleasure, feel satisfaction feel like being here. Otherwise we'll just depress and numb and you know kind of slip away. And I think that would be an unworthy end to our species.  Neil Sattin: Totally agree with you and a word that popped into my mind that I would like to add to that, is resilience.  adrienne maree brown: Yeah.  Neil Sattin: The more that we're embracing our capacity for resilience in terms of how we heal our lineage of trauma. Or present moment traumas in terms of how we make things right when they've gone wrong, and do that in the context where what we're shooting for what we're envisioning is something joyful blissful like that actually has ease and pleasure connected to it.  adrienne maree brown: Yeah. Yes.  Neil Sattin: Then that that makes it worth it and gives us kind of a... I hate to use the word technology, but like a technology of continually adjusting to get there.  adrienne maree brown: Yeah.  Neil Sattin: You talk in "Emerging Strategy," about adapability... Yeah.  adrienne maree brown: Exactly. Yeah exactly. Yeah. Well, I was just going to say, I was like, yeah. You know, like, to me emergent strategy and pleasure activism really go together like they're holding hands, dancing across the field of ideas and I really think that this this idea of resilience. You know I have a teacher Alta Starr who's always pushing me to be like you know, resilience is beyond even harm, right? It's sort of like this natural capacity we have to learn to adapt, to like grow, to learn from whatever changes come. And it's hard for me because I'm still like "Well. But also when someone hurts us, you know we had to be resilient." And you know it's hard in a city like Detroit because you know resilience can be weaponized. Like if people like you bounce back from anything, like, we'll just keep doing anything to you. Like you know we'll add an incinerator to your neighborhood or whatever you'll be fine. And so I think there's something about, Oh to me, like how do we have a transformative resilience right. How do we have resilience that is not just like we can recover back to conditions that we weren't very happy with in the first place. And being like oh you know when I look at like what am I recovering? I'm recovering something that's beyond my own origin, you know like I need to recover something that goes back past the many hours that my grandmother overworked, and I need to recover something that goes back past my enslaved ancestors, and recover something that goes back past my kidnapped answers, and you know, ancestors, like I feel this long, long, long arc of the work that I'm in right now where I'm like. Almost everyone that came before me was trying to work towards some joy some freedom some sense of safety for their children themselves. And now I am awakened so like I am aware of all of that and I have an option in front of me to be resilient across time and space right. And that feels very exciting. You know, I think as hard as it is to live in this age of hyper connectedness because I think it is really hard. My friend angel Kyoto Williams talks about this, that like, we we are given access to so much more information than we've ever had access to before but we're not given the tools to handle it all, right? Like we're not taught here's how to meditate. Here's how to pass what's overwhelming back to the earth or back to God or back to whomever you trust with it. We're not given those those technologies, right? So we kind of flailing a lot of the time of like, I'm receiving all this, I'm trying to care about all of it and we find ourselves stretched so far but I also think the really beautiful thing about that is like we can see how many people believe what we believe, how many people are trying to practice what we're trying to practice so we can find each other. You know you and I would have never found each other if it wasn't for this modern state of connection. And to be able to say like, "Oh you're out here in Maine fomenting these ideas and I'm out here in Detroit fomenting these ideas and we have very different lineages. And yet we both have arrived in this place where it's like this is a path. This is a way to move forward it's important. Paying attention to relationship is important." And so that you know, that gives me hope inside of the the struggle of this overwhelming moment where there is so much that is hard. It's also there's so much that is overwhelmingly beautiful and overwhelmingly good and there's so many ways that you know also we live on such a resilient planet. So, I often think about this that I'm like, you know, and I feel like I'm trying to remember whoever first said this idea, because I was a Oh snap! That's a game changer! It's like, the Earth is gonna be OK.  Neil Sattin: Yeah.  adrienne maree brown: Right? Like the earth is gonna be OK. Like, it might be, she might go through an Ice Age or something, but like if we're not here she'll still be OK. And like if we're not here she'll recover from whatever we've done. Like how we've remixed her nature into other kinds of things. And, I don't know if you saw this story came out last week about the white-throated rail, did you see that?  Neil Sattin: I hadn't but I saw you wrote about it on your on your blog. Yeah. adrienne maree brown: I was so moved by this. So this like little bird...:The debate is basically this bird re-evolved, right. Like it went extinct at 136,000 years ago, roughly. Because like,  these things are hard to track but like... Now this bird has has re-evolved has come back into existence. The same little -- it's a flightless bird. There's something about that that just I, I read it and I really was like moved in a way I was like, I didn't know I needed to know that that was possible. But, I was like, I need to know that that level of resilience is possible, like somewhere down in the programming of this planet. There's there's some code that's just like white throated rail.: And just because we can no longer see the creature, it doesn't mean that it's, it's disappeared like there's some aspect of it that DNA that's in there. And yeah, it made me feel like OK. Like there's mysteries on mysteries on mysteries when it comes to this planet. And there's so much that we can't understand. And so inside of that I'm like, you know, I love thinking really big grandiose thoughts. But then I try to bring them back down into very small tangible practices. Small ways of being with each other because I'm like, I can't imagine how we'll get through the climate catastrophe that we're in right now. But I can imagine being in right relationship with the planet around me and making better choices about this local place that I'm in and being place based and loving. Even though I travel a lot but I'm like rooting myself into the soil in Detroit in all the ways that I can. Like this is where I bury my compost. This is where I play with children. This is where I go find like where's the Detroit grown foods every summer and I am really cautious now. I've made a major shift in my life around how I produce waste. Like what kind of waste I will put out so that I tried to really shrink down my garbage waste to the, like the very very you know, it's like if I can rinse it and I can clean it off and it can be recycled. It's gonna be recycled if it's food if it can go into compost it goes into compost like I used to have a massive garbage bin that I was putting out. And I'm like I live alone. You know all of that with stuff that like other things can be done with. And now it's like you know a huge portion of what comes out of my home is gonna be recycled and reused again. And, I'm aiming at zero waste. I'm constantly trying to figure out where is and where other places where I can... I just bought this new set of like ziplocks reusable kind of Ziploc thingies, that so you know because I'm a, I'm a fan of Ziploc bags like I'm like you've put anything in a Ziploc bag. You can go anywhere you have it I carry like in my suitcase there's always like five Ziploc bags just like folded just in case because you just never know what you're gonna need a Ziploc bag for. And so I'm like, oh that's a next frontier that I need to like, you know, figure out a way to advance through and I'm like, oh I can do this, right. So anyway all of that to say to me I'm trying in my personal life to get in right relationship with nature and my body is a huge part of that. Like if I'm not in right relationship and respecting the miraculous, like, Stardust nature of my body then how can I even begin to be in my relationship with the rest of the living world.  Neil Sattin: Yeah.  adrienne maree brown: Yeah.  Neil Sattin: So, OK. So first, I'm so moved when I hear you talk about not really being able to read the code but seeing the expressions of the code like..  adrienne maree brown: Yeah.  Neil Sattin: ...the bird coming back into existence from extinction and even when you were describing how you and I could be doing different work in different places and yet here we find ourselves together having this conversation.  adrienne maree brown: Yeah.  Neil Sattin: To me that is an expression of the power of something that's ineffiable, that like we can't understand but if we're willing to to follow that path and and follow the ways that it's growing and things are emerging then, then at least that inspires hope in me that there's like an antidote to disconnection, to destruction.  adrienne maree brown: Yes.  Neil Sattin: To...  adrienne maree brown: Yeah.  Neil Sattin: ...all the forces that were that were working against and in terms of relationship the ways that people are, you know, experience this desire for closeness and connection. You know part of our, our wiring as you were mentioning earlier is to be connected to each other.  adrienne maree brown: That's right.  Neil Sattin: And yet, it becomes such a source of pain partly because we either intentionally or unintentionally traumatize each other and then also because of the social structures and their impact on us. When you talk about pleasure and relearning pleasure, getting in touch with your body and and I like that stand that you take for for the personal being political that fractal nature of...  adrienne maree brown: Yes. Yeah.  Neil Sattin: ...transformation. I think about how many of us are just kind of following the script of romance and love and sex and pleasure and needing...  adrienne maree brown: When did you become aware that there was a script?  Neil Sattin: Oohh. Well that's it's been an unfolding for me, for sure. And I think probably I became most aware of it when I inadvertently hurt someone. And like had no idea that that was happening for them and found out later and then you know, thankfully we've had our moments of amends and talking and all of that. But, in restoring ourselves. That was probably the inception of it. And then all through college.  adrienne maree brown: Yeah.  Neil Sattin: And then in my current relationship, I'm so blessed to be with someone who's taken a strong stand for her own boundaries around her own healing, her own trauma. And it forced me to even go even deeper into like, "Well, what am I looking for in relationships?".  adrienne maree brown: Right.  Neil Sattin: What am I looking for in sex? Would it like what is this rejection, quote-unquote, that I'm experiencing in this moment and what is that really about? And and so that has forced me to ask deeper questions, and to get progressively more and more honest with myself and with her, to a point where fairly recently I feel like I've hit ground zero. But it's it's a process it's definitely been an unfolding and watching those layers fall away. And then once they do being like, All right well how do I replace this? If I'm going to do sex the way that I thought I should? Or you know I think it was an essay that you wrote where you mentioned a babysitter who was watching Porky's when you were...  adrienne maree brown: Yes.  Neil Sattin: Yeah. And the way those things inform our sense of, of what's what's erotic, what turns us on, all of that. Once I peel those things away and come back to, this moment and what's real. Well...  adrienne maree brown: That's right.  Neil Sattin: Yeah. That's what my journey has been like and I've, I've certainly tried to surface that a bunch here on the podcast and and I'm really excited to hear your thoughts about that unfolding for yourself and, and you mentioned meditation earlier. Yeah. What are the the pathways into, kind, of breaking down the, the unhealthy learnings? And coming back into right relationship with with ourselves as relational, sexual, erotic, pleasure oriented being?  adrienne maree brown: Beings, right? I feel like... a couple of things. I mean I think one is, there was a period of time where I was, I was really convinced that sex didn't have anything to do with me or what I was feeling. Like, I was really like what is the other person feeling and like that's that's what's important right now. And like my job is to make sure that that experience is a whole good one. Right? And, and I feel like, I remember like, there's just moments in most of its relational right. Like most of it is like just other people reflecting something back. And it's like "Girl, it doesn't had to be like that." You know? People talking to me, reading stuff. I remember reading the work of Andrea Dworkin. Have you read her? Like she she talks pretty scathingly about marriage and pornography and like, a lot of things that I was just I took for granted, were like those are good things that you try to get to in life. And, I don't agree with everything, you know, I feel like there's a lot of brilliant thinking in what she said and I feel like there's also not a lot offered of like here are other true pleasures, you know, like here's the ways to get them.  Neil Sattin: Yeah.  adrienne maree brown: But there was something that blew open for me where I was just like, I want to be able to consider this. I want to be able to consider that everything I was told about where pleasure in my life would come from and, or,  was, was and wasn't allowed. That maybe all that is wrong. Right? And then Audrey Lorde's writing, Octavia Butler's writing. There were just all these different people who were giving me. It was never just about sex. It was never just about the body. It was alway, have a revolution about how you think about how things work in the world. Start to ask questions and get curious about who benefits from these systems. Right? So, I remember, I remember having a quest-, you know, a conversation with a friend about marriage and just being like, who benefits? Who benefits in marriage, right? And, uh, and being pretty like oh my gosh. No one should ever get married. I was like, "No woman should ever get married!" Like I felt very strongly like, Nope it's not, it's just not a good idea. Like you will work forever in a labor that will never ever get acknowledged. You will not be able to pursue passion, work, things that you actually care about. You'll not be respected in the process. And then you know, and then he'll cheat on you. Like this is the arc of  it, right? Because you know he'll need something younger and prettier and he's worked you out, right? And I remember having that conversation as like, NO! You know? Like, and then be like well no that's just one way that's a model that is... The system that benefits from that is patriarchy. And if I can understand that then I can be like let me target patriarchy. Let me... And like I, I'm very lucky that I came across the work of Grace Lee Boggs where she really is like: Transform yourself to transform the world. And this is something I say probably every day of my life. There's some place or some way in which I say this to someone else or to myself. So I was like oh Where is patriarchy in my own practice? Where is patriarchy is showing up in how I'm approaching a relationship? And some of the interesting places were how quickly I would be dishonest for the sake of connection. And I say connection in quotation marks there, right? That I was like Well I don't want to be alone and, like, being alone is a sign of someone who's not a good person or whatever. Right? You have to be like with someone to be like a part of the human experiment or whatever. First you know, that that is...  I no longer believe that, but like you know. But at the time I just like, ok, I don't want to be alone. So I would go out on a date or someone, you know, I feel like I was I feel like I came up like right at the end of dating, also. So it's like right at the end of like when you would actually say, "Let's go on a date to a place and get to know each other." For maybe three or four times we would do that before we are actually alone in either of our places. And you know something else would happen right. I'm like I come from what feels like almost a chaste time before the apps kind of popped off into, just your place or mine. Like what's good? You know? And I talk about apps as if I know what I'm talking about I've never really used that apps to, that's just not how I meet people. But, but, I know that the majority of people in my life that's now how people connect. But so you go out and you're having these initial conversations and my practice was to just kind of listen for what I thought the other person really wanted to hear and then delivered that somehow. And you know, I grew up as a military brat. I moved like roughly every two years, so you get really good at figuring out like what is the, what are the rules here, and how do I adapt to be safe within them? And it can be hard when you get good at that to also be like. And then what is what is fundamental to me like what is the me that I'm also carrying to each place that needs to adapt? And the same thing in dating like what is the me that's showing up? And like might adapt in some relationship but like why am I rushing to not just adapt, but like completely contort into something? Why am I so desperate for being in relationship that I won't even be there? Like I wanted it to be me that shows that. Yeah. So I feel like I had rounds and rounds of that and it never worked. I kept having this heartbreak, that was really almost never about the other person. But it was about facing how much I had contorted to get in the door, and then how little I actually wanted to be inside that house, right?  Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah.  adrienne maree brown: Whatever house it was. And so, I feel like I took...  Neil Sattin: Which by the way is a super common problem that people have.  adrienne maree brown: It's every, it's everywhere. You know when, I do a bunch of you know like you said coaching and mediation and stuff like that, and I find like that is the number one thing. That's the number one thing is that people are like you're just not who you've said were.  Neil Sattin: Right.  adrienne maree brown: And how could you not be who you said you were? And how could you not uphold the promises that you made? And it's just like I was lying. I was, I wasn't even there. Like I don't even know I'm sorry. You know.  Neil Sattin: Right. And then there's that additional layer of oh wait a minute. Now we also have to deal with your shame around who you... around your truth. yeah.  adrienne maree brown: Exactly. And it's the shame and the still absence of yourself. Right? So, so often. Now I've been doing a lot of support for people who are in their mid 30s to 50s and a lot of the folks I'm supporting are going through major breakups of fundamental relationships. And it's interesting because they're like who am I? Like, who am I? You know like so much was defined in relationship to this other person? And that's how so many people get trained to become themselves. It's like now, now I'm ugly, I'm half of something, and now that's who I am. And so much of the work is being like; "You're a whole something. You're a whole something." And I think the thing I'm always watching out for is not to send people all the way to the other side of the pendulum, right.:To me the personal is political only as it relates to being part of a collective effort to be political about what is personal, right? So I feel like this is you know someone was asking me I did an interview yesterday, and they're like what about the GOOP, like what about the like white women taking bathes, or whatever. And I was just like "Yeah. Like you know that so much of self care is about that. It's like white people with privilege go off to the spa and that's when you know, often, I mention to people they're like, I'm not about all that, you know? And I'm just like, "Yeah I I don't think that that's political, necessarily, either right?" I think it becomes political in relationship to your identity. I think it becomes political in relationship to the community you're a part of and how you're making sure that everyone has access to the beautiful good parts of life, right? And so you know I'm part of a community. I'm part of many communities. And there's a particular community I call the goddesses. And it's a bunch of women, we all went to school together. Right now everyone's like slaying dragons in all these different fields of life, and we have started to really, like, have each other's backs and hold each other down in a way that like we didn't know how to necessarily do back then. Right. But we've rediscovered each other and been like we need to like all you know like how about half of us, half of the people are moms. And so it's like we need to go places where like everyone here gets to relax and be taken care of. That we get to be part of something that's close knit and intimate, but that we get to have massages or we get to be in a hot tub or we get to you know just cook for each other or take each other out to the best places we can find to eat. And like, there's so many small pleasures that feel really important, like it wouldn't be great for me if I was just like I'm over here living my best life and all my sisters were out here struggling. Like, I don't think that that's a way towards freedom, right? For me it's very important that as I have access, I increase access for everyone else and I particularly increase access for those who have less access than me. Like that to me as part of the political commitment I'm in for my lifetime.: Neil Sattin: Yeah.  adrienne maree brown: Yeah.  Neil Sattin: Yeah. There's... I'm just thinking here about the, uh, the commodification of self care and I think that's part of what you're talking about, right? Is that like...  adrienne maree brown: Yes. Capitalism! Neil Sattin: You actually have to... Yeah. There it is again. There it is again. adrienne maree brown: it's always there. Yeah.  Neil Sattin: One thing that popped up for me when you were talking about structures and like, I would never get married! And you know and then and then that sense of like well OK. It's just the system and who does it benefit and maybe there's a time and a place. What popped up for me was this question around the dance between safety and I think it was because you mentioned, you know, when going out on a date, like part of what's happening there is deciding, Am I safe with this person?  adrienne maree brown: Exactly. Yeah.  Neil Sattin: And. And then that because safety is right up there with connection in terms of something that we, that we require in order to function as humans. That's right. So and that's interesting as you start pulling apart the structures because one thing that marriage can be really good at...  adrienne maree brown: Is safety.  Neil Sattin: ...is supporting safety. Exactly. And so how do you start to loosen those tethers in a way that still supports people being held. Because if you're not feeling safe, you're not growing in a way that's probably generative for you you're just like scrambling back to safety for the most part.  adrienne maree brown: That's right. You know I think I love this question, Neil. I think this is like, this is an essential one. To me it's like, OK how do we balance these things. And a couple of thoughts leap to mind. One is that I think people feel like they have to choose between safety and like, being their whole selves or being their, being in their dignity, like all of it. And that first part, that feels like it's not true. Right, I'm like that's part of the lie that we've been told is that you have to choose. So you can either be safe in a marriage where you don't get to be fully realized as yourself or you can be fully realized as yourself. But like, you know, without that stability and I've seen it, I've seen the case more often than not be that you find that deep safety within yourself. It's a feeling not a story that you're telling about your life, right. Or a projection you're giving for someone else but it's actually like some, a felt sense, like I feel it in my life. Most of my life now, I feel safe right? And I can feel when that changes. Like sometimes I'll be in a space where there's just too many people, too much energy, something's off, you know? And I can feel it and it heightens my senses, it heightens my awareness, it makes me pay attention to what's happening around me. But then I think something like marriage, it's that kind of commitment, what I see so often happening is that people get into it and then they're like, "This isn't the safety that I thought it was going to be," right? Maybe it is for the first month or the first year or even until the first child or whatever, you know. But then there's some moment where that falls away because what you, what you thought you had, was like, I know you and you know me. And what's really happening is you're changing and I'm also changing and so I've officiated a few weddings and one of things that's been exciting is that the people asked me to officiate are like we want to commit to changing together, right. That to me is the kind of commitment that I can get behind where people are like I know this person again and I'm not going to change but I'm so curious about who they are and who they will become and I want to be there for that ride. And so it's not about marriage as entrapment and like catching you into one single identity, or any relationship, because now I'm like, you know I had to get married to be trying to trap someone in your web and I really like the model which I'm sure you've heard of of relationship anarchy. I don't think anything is perfect perfect thing that I really like it because so much of it is like, you know safety. You know, I think you were talking about with safety to me so much of that is rooted in trust.  Neil Sattin: Mm hmm.  adrienne maree brown: Right. It's like, Oh I trust that you're gonna do what you say you do. You say you're gonna do. And I trust that I can tell you my truth or whatever it is. And in relationship anarchy, which I think is like someone in Sweden, Andie Nordgren or something like that.  Neil Sattin: Yeah I forget.  adrienne maree brown: Yeah I have to go look at her name but there's you can look a bit like a "relationship anarchy manifesto." Right. And I love it because it's like trust is something that we build together over time, and like we start out with a default of trust like rather than starting out with the default of like, you've got it, you know like your trust is at zero and you have to like somehow bring it up to a hundred and never let your stuff like, never fuck up like never ever break my trust in anyway, or I'm gonna hold that against you for the rest of time. And I'm like instead you start from a place of like I have an abundant sense of trust for like my place in the world, for what I'm up to in the world, for like the work that I'm here to do, my purpose and then I meet you. And I'm just gonna offer you trust as a human being and what I am counting on is that if you break my trust, then we'll figure out how to recover together. Right? And sometimes that breaking of trust might be, we're not supposed to recover together. You know, like we're sometimes, the breaking of trust will expose something like, you're more committed to... uh... Like I see this happen sometimes where people are like in an open relationship, but still do cheating type behaviors. And I'm like, Oh, OK like great. That's good information, right? Like you're still very committed to a certain kind of secrecy. Maybe that's what turns you on is the forbidden. Something along those lines. And that's not compatible, right, with the kind of relationship that I'm trying to build or whatever kind of relationship this person is trying to build. And so I get really excited about stuff like that, because I like then you in a, you know, then it's like we just got clear about it and like we can trust each other to take the step back and transition into some other form of relationship. Versus, I think what happens now which is like, I offered you a false trust that you could never live up to that I was waiting for you to somehow live up to, you broke it and now I don't, I never want to see your face again. Right? Like you let me down so thoroughly, that I just I don't even want you to exist and I'm like I don't think we have enough people for that way of being with each other. Right? That we can just keep being like if you're not perfect, perfectly trustworthy then I kick you out of my community forever. And I say that you know the same thing you said is that you learn some of this from causing harm. And I'm like I learned from breaking people's trust. Right?  Neil Sattin: Yeah.  adrienne maree brown: There are people who I love and care about and I, I broke their trust and I have, I've had to do like a lot of work, a lot of work around like, Am I a trustworthy person? If the answer is No. How would I become a trustworthy person? Right. And again so much of that initial line of inquiry was just like about other people. Like how can I let them know how can I show how can I prove that I'm trustworthy? And of course the answer is I have to be trustworthy. Like I have to be able to feel in myself. And I'll tell you I'll tell you a little example of this.  Neil Sattin: Sure.  adrienne maree brown: I was in the airport like last week and I was running through and a lot had been happening and I went and sat down on a bench and there was this coat next to me and I asked around like, "Hey anybody is this your coat." And everybody was like no, you know whoever this coat is they just left this coat here. There's no bag there's nothing else around it. So I let it sit there for a little while and then I'm like Oh the nice coat. It's a nice coat. And so I picked it up to look at it and it's like a designer coat and it happens to be my size, right? So I'm like, This is a very nice gorgeous designer coat that someone just left here on this bench and like who knows if they're ever going to make it back, right?  Neil Sattin: For you!  adrienne maree brown: But, that, yeah part of my brain was like a gift from the universe! And I was like. And I picked it up and I looked at it and was like that would not be a trustworthy behavior to just take this coat and move on with life. Right. Like there's a chance that that person is still in this airport and that they're like running back here to get their very expensive, nice coat. Right? Or and, right. They'll call Delta. Like do you know where my coat is? Or whatever it is. So I took it over to the, um, you know where they check you in for the plane. I took it over to one of the guys there and I was like this was left over there. They're like, oh my goodness. You know like that's so sweet, you know. And it was just like, I felt the burden lift off my system that I'm like oh I was about to really just take someone's coat. But I didn't. And it is a small thing, like it's a really small thing that like no one would have known if I had done the wrong thing...  Neil Sattin: Except you.  adrienne maree brown: But I would have known. And like trying to get to that place in my life where like I don't make the mistake because it would hurt my integrity and my wholeness and my dignity outside of anyone else's. And even if I know it, that creates a shadow. Like how do I turned to my lover and tell this story? How do I walk into a room where I'm offering people, like let's be trustworthy people, and I'm standing there in a coat that I stole from some poor stranger, right? So to me it's that. It's like is my relationship with myself intact? And then from that place can I be in contact with another person and say, now this is intact? And if it gets harmed I commit to helping us get to intactness and sometimes that looks like a boundary. I keep repeating these words my friend, Prentis Hemphill, made this, made this, had this thought last week and then spread it all over the world basically, but its boundaries are the distance at which I can love you and me, simultaneously.  Neil Sattin: Mm hmm. I love that.  adrienne maree brown: And I keep thinking about that that I'm like sometimes... Right? Isn't it beautiful. And sometimes it's like that. It's like sometimes in tactness is at a great distance. It's like we're good as long as you're two thousand miles away from me. We're fine. It's good. Like don't cross that boundary and it's all good.  Neil Sattin: Right.  adrienne maree brown: And so I think about that I'm like, you know that's one of the things I talk about in "Pleasure Activism" is like our "No,"  makes a way for our "Yes." Like the good boundaries are actually so crucial for the good relationships.  Neil Sattin: Yeah. What seems contained too, and what you're offering, is the necessity for healing, like, to recognize like, OK if we're not in right relationship we're all each on a healing journey to getting there.  adrienne maree brown: Yes.  Neil Sattin: It's probably rare, the person who's learned, who's reached their 30s or 40s or more, you know, and hasn't experience some sort of disruption of their integrity.  adrienne maree brown: That's right.  Neil Sattin: So there's the healing component. There's also the compassion component. Like if I, if I expect you to be perfect and you fail me, and then that becomes this huge breach, then that's a much different problem than I'm trusting you. And I'm also wanting you. Like I'm, I'm willing to be okay with where you and I aren't perfect as long as we can be in full disclosure about that together.  adrienne maree brown: Yeah. That's right.  Neil Sattin: That's the honesty piece.  adrienne maree brown: I like that. I like that. I feel like that', you know, because I also think about this. Like for people who are like, "Oh no you know I'm sure they're someone's not me I'm good. You know like I know what you're talking about. I don't lie to myself or whatever." Or like, so often the people who seem to be, who have it all together, who have it altogether. Are are in some ways damaging themselves the most like I feel like now I have stopped doing to myself the harm of trying to pretend I am perfect, right?  Neil Sattin: Yeah.  adrienne maree brown: And I see it. I mean I feel like that you know when people watch Beyonce's Homecoming, right? Like what was intriguing to me is that she was like I was pushing for perfection and it meant having to like learn all the stuff that I would never do this again. It wasn't perfect it was actually too much that I harmed myself. And but, I pulled this off, but I harmed myself and didn't... Like, there's even stuff like that. Right? I'm like, "Yeah, what are you denying of yourself. That's where you're creating a prison, right, for yourself. You're containing that part of you that wants to be alive and free and moving around. And I'll say I'm part of the generative somatics teaching body. And for me, Somatics has been the healing pathway that has opened so much. And there's a really beautiful episode of The Healing Justice podcast, that has a woman named Sumitra on it, as it was that, they basically the Healing Justice podcast, they do an offer and then they do a practice to follow up on that. And so it's a 30 minute practice something less than that but it's basically this, the core practice of Somatics which is just centering learning how to actually drop into your body and feel and center in real time. And the idea is that you don't center to feel calm or better you center to feel more. that if you can feel more...  Neil Sattin: Yeah. To feel what is.  : That if you can feel more, feel what is and feel more of it then you start to have actual agency in real time over the choices you make, over the connections you move towards, over the connections you can start to set real boundaries around, like I can feel when someone is not a good energy to have around me, right. That doesn't mean they don't deserve to have people around them. But it's not going to happen here, right.  Neil Sattin: Right.  adrienne maree brown: I'm gonna move towards those people who are like the right energy for me for, for me growing them. And for them growing me. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to offer that because when it comes to healing, I think it helps to be fairly tangible. Like, there's, there's some you know, I feel like that for me. Like I went to talk therapy for a decade or whateve, right? And I've been able to move so much more through being able to feel, because I feel like talk therapy I was still able to stay in my head and tell my stories and tell my lies. And like you know you know, you can do it if your therapist has to be on to you just move on to the next one like, here's my, here's my story, right, or whatever it is. And I just think there's something so beautiful about dropping in and being like I'm feeling, I'm in a community of people who hold me accountable to being able to feel myself. And even now like I've been touring this book I land in a new city, and I run into someone who's also a Somatic practitioner and they hold me and they're like Are you good? Are you centering? Are you good? How are you feeling? You know and I know that they really care and they want to know. And in that moment I can feel the connection and my aliveness just expand.  Neil Sattin: So important.  adrienne maree brown: Yeah.  Neil Sattin: adrienne maree brown thank you so much for your words today for joining us. I know we could talk for easy another hour. You don't have the time, at least not today. Hopefully we can chat again at some point. That would be special.  adrienne maree brown: Yay. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate being a guest on the show and I hope it's of use to people.  Neil Sattin: It is my pleasure and I just want to encourage everyone who's listening to check out all your work but especially your latest book: Pleasure Activism, Emergent Strategy. They're both written with such care and and I really felt them speaking to me and my unfolding and I know it would be a gift to any reader who's here with us. And it feels like a fun footnote that the friend that I met who introduced me to you and your work.  adrienne maree brown: Yeah.  Neil Sattin: We were actually both attending a somatic experiencing workshop with Peter Levine.  adrienne maree brown: Yay. That's awesome! Neil Sattin: So I love how it came back into Somatics here at the end.  adrienne maree brown: Full circle.  Neil Sattin: So far so important to find that truth of who you are and your experience in your body in this moment, and so much aliveness comes from there.  Neil Sattin: Thank you Neil.  adrienne maree brown: adrienne, if people want to find out more about your work, what can they do?  adrienne maree brown: They can go to the website: allied-media-dot-org-slash-ESII. That's where you can get trainings, workshop, stuff like that. And then I'm on Instagram  @adriennemareebrown, and I, that's where I mostly post things into the world.  Neil Sattin: Great. Well we will make sure there are links in all our stuff. And thank you so much for being with us today. And with me.  adrienne maree brown: Thank you. Have a good one.  Neil Sattin: Take care, adrienne.  adrienne maree brown: All right. Peace.  Neil Sattin: Same to you.  Neil Sattin: And just as a reminder if you want a detailed transcript of today's episode, you can get that by visiting Neil-Sattin-dot-com-slash-AMB, adrienne maree brown, or you can text the word passion to the number of 3 3 4 4 4 and follow the instructions. And we will have links to everything that we mentioned here in today's episode as well as to The Healing Justice I think is what adrienne said the The Healing Justice podcast episode that she mentioned, as a gift for you.  Neil Sattin: All right, take care.   

How many times have you said the following?   "Yeah I've been thinking about doing that."   Sound familiar?   I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say that.   They are thinking about joining a gym, going back to school, looking for a new job, etc.   Great.   But when I see them 6 months later and ask them about it, what do they say?   "Yeah I've been thinking about doing that."   This is the pattern of the unsuccessful.   Thinking about it is basically procrastination in a pretty dress.   It's a nicer way of saying you can't pull the trigger.   If you want to succeed you have to pull the freaking trigger.

Hybrid construction is a huge growth area with a lot of opportunity for PCB designers. Learn from Chris Hunrath, VP of Technology at Insulectro, as he provides several valuable insights about the latest in hybrid construction trends. Get facts from an expert in material properties and how to use and combine them in the PCB assembly process. Learn more about polyamide film and its properties, how to use the FR4 as glue, and many more ways to make hybrid construction more familiar and approachable. Join us in this week’s OnTrack Podcast where we bring insights from the manufacturing floor to PCB design teams around the world.   Show Highlights: Chris will be a speaker at AltiumLive in October, so be sure not to miss him there, the title of his talk will be announced very shortly Chris sheds more light on the topic of inductance and plane inductance which was recently discussed by Rick Hartley in our Podcast: What to Avoid in 4 and 6-Layer Stack-ups Embedded capacitors: one of the things that you don't get from embedded capacitor material or planner capacitor materials, is high capacitance, so an individual component will give you a relatively high capacitance level There is a capacitance shortage right now too Also, there’s a desire to remove surface capacitors for several reasons. You get rid of the vias, you get rid of the inductance and increase the circuit density Even when capacitance per square inch is small you don't need as high a capacitance, because you're getting rid of a lot of the in-plane inductance and that's exactly what Rick talked about in his podcast Nowadays, with thinner materials, Rick’s recommendation makes sense Polyamide film, typically used for flex circuits can be used in a rigid board because it has a thin dielectric layer and has a very high dialect for standing voltage and you can make it really thin You can build it into a rigid board and get the properties you need to get rid of those capacitors which leads into hybrid construction, how do you process them? The building blocks used to make flex circuits. If you're using an Acrylic which we talked about in a previous podcast laminates its standard FR4 temperatures. True Polyamide films laminate at much higher temperatures like 600° F. You can't expose FR4 to those temperatures so in the case of very high capacitance materials you would use the FR4 as the glue and you would just use the core as its print match it, bond treat it and then build it into your FR4 part You can’t mix B-stages in the same spot when you laminate that all together the FR4 would be broken down Materials on the High Speed Digital side should also have the RF properties and you want to be able to mix those materials so it's becoming very popular Hybrid Constructions - a growth area - it’s become like gourmet cooking - there is new media to work with - a material science based area Components typically added to outside of PCB are now being embedded inside the PCB Solder paste reflow and interconnects can be a downside The new materials allow you to do things you couldn’t do before. Coins can be used to add inductance if you need to just for heat sinking purposes. Bleeding printed electronic technology into PCBs: DuPont have a very interesting liquid polyamide technology that cures at 300° Fahrenheit which is very low and we're exploring the opportunity to use that in lieu of solder mask. It would just be screened on. If someone needs information on Hybrid Constructions or sintering paste, please email Chris. Links and Resources: Chris’ email address   Listen to Chris Hunrath’s previous episodes: Why is Spread Glass popular? Flex and Material Sets Paste Interconnects and Paste Sintering View all show notes and VIDEO here.   Hi everyone. This is Judy Warner with Altium's OnTrack Podcast. Welcome back, here we are again with your friend and mine, Chris Hunrath from Insulectro who's going to teach us about paste sintering today, which I don't know much about, but we're going to learn about it together. But before we get started, remember to hit all the typical Altium social media platforms Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter please follow me on LinkedIn and also remember we are recording on YouTube as well as Podbean and we can be found on all your favorite podcast apps. Alright, so today we're going to talk about - I don't even know how to set this up entirely cause I'm just as much as a student. So Chris, welcome back! Thank you again, and I know this isn't a new technology - it's just not one that has crossed my path. So tell us about what paste sintering is and what the applications are, and benefits to our designers that are listening today? Okay, interconnect technology, as you mentioned is not new, what's happened recently though is there's been some new material developments that make it more feasible for the circuit boards. Certainly in ceramic fire technology, metal - powdered metals have been used to make interconnects and traces and circuits on ceramic circuit boards, but those fire at 850-plus degrees Celsius, which would obviously destroy most PCB materials so there's some new technologies out now. There are different kinds of pastes that are used for interconnects. The one that we work with, and the one that we promote, is something from a company called Ormet, and their material is interesting because it sinters at one temperature and then it forms a new alloy with a higher melting point. Okay I feel like we need to back up and explain what paste interconnect technology actually is. Like how it's performed and then we can go into the material science part just so I can keep up, Chris I want to be able to keep up. So multi-layer PCBs - also not new - typically what you do is, you print and edge any number of layers, you drill and then you plate. Typically electroless copper, to make the non-conductive surfaces conductive, and then you build up the thickness with electrolytic copper. Mmm-hm. And some people call it a semi-edited process, because you are using the electroless first as a seed layer. There are some other technologies used to make that dielectric surface conductive, and then you build up with electrolytic copper and so that's how you link the layers of the z-axis. So if you think of a classically - as a circuit board - as a web of foils printed and etched, all your XY  connections, and then the drilled holes - whether they're laser drilled, blind vias, or drilled through holes, the plating links everything in the z-axis. Now one of the challenges when you do that, is you're consuming real estate at all the layers. So let's say you have a 12 layer multi-layer - relatively simple multi-layer by today's standards - but you need to connect layer 1 to layer 10 you've taken up the real estate in all the other layers - you can't route circuits in those places, because there's a via in the way, unless you wanted them to connect to that via and they're part of that net. So there's a term called any layer HDI - I don't know if you're familiar with that term? Basically it means you could put a via anywhere you want in any layer. Nowadays that's done typically by what we call build up technology. So you start with a core of some sort - again it could be double sided, it could be a multi-layer core, and then you sequentially build layers and you only go one layer deep with a laser drill sometimes two - depending on the design - but that's not true for any layer. Anyway, you go one layer deep you plate, you print and etch, and you do it again and again and that allows you to put vias almost anywhere you want in any layer, the downside is, it's almost like building multiple circuit boards. So the cost really starts to increase. And of course you're putting the board through multiple lamination cycles and that has some undesirable material side effects depending on the material. Some materials can withstand three lamination cycles, some six, some ten, but it is hard on the materials to go through that lamination process, over and over again. Right. Especially electric phenolics, which are very common for lead-free assembly, because they're relatively economic and they're also -  they also will survive lead pre-assembly, but they tend to get more brittle every time they see a thermal cycle though, so that causes some issues too. So what paste interconnects allow you to do, is change the sequence in which the vias are formed. So instead of laminating drilling and plating you can actually drill, add the paste, and then laminate, so it changes the build sequence and this is important both for the fabricator and the designer to understand what that means. So typically what you would do is, you would take a B stage layer of some sort; you can either drill it and paste, fill it with what we call a postage stamp process or you could pre-tack it, vacuum tack it at low temperature to a core of some sort, or substrate, laser drill through the B stage, apply the paste and then when you laminate the paste interconnects, the layers in the z-axis - you could literally take a piece of prepreg, laser drill it with a stencil or with a Mylar Stencil, I'll talk about how that works in a little bit - apply the paste, remove the Mylar laminate between two copper foils, and now you've got interconnects inside a double-sided cork. That's cool. So then if you print and etch that, now you've got a core with connections between the layers with no visible vias; they're all internal. Yeah there's some technology around the paste and again we can talk about that, in a little bit. So how is it applied - is it squeegeed in? Yeah. Okay, just like with a silkscreen? Well no screen - so what typically what you do is, you apply a 1 mm Mylar mask to the B stage and you tack it simultaneously. Then when you drill through the Mylar and the prepreg B stage to get down to your copper features, then you apply the paste, and the Mylar's your mask, and then you remove that just prior to lamination. And that stays inside the hole? It doesn't just I don't know the consistency of it. My mind was - pictured it just wanting to drop out of that hole - but it must have some kind of stability? Yeah it's a liquid and there is a tack right. There are a number of ways to do this, but the most common method is to laser drill, apply the paste, dry the paste... you would do it a second time to top it off and then when you remove the Mylar, the liquid paste stays on top of the paste that's already been applied. Then you dry it again, then you go to laminate. Does it air dry or do you have to cure it what do you do? You don't really cure it because it's metal powder - metal powder based - so there isn't really a polymer matrix. Unlike print electronic sinks - which is a again another story - you would just dry off any of the carrier solvent used for the application process. It is a liquid - well it's a paste, not a liquid - but but when you dry off the the solvent that's in it; which is less than 10 percent by weight, then it's just powdered metal and that's how it makes a connection. So think about this right, you've seen a lot of PCB designs - imagine a 32 layer board, which most shops can do, but it's not at the low end of technology. Imagine splitting it up to two 16 layer multi layers right? A lot easier. A lot easier to build and then you just paste them together at the end, and depending on the design, you can electrically test each half and only use the good ones. So your risk is  light. Oh, right. There's a lot of advantages to this. Or what if you want to put together three 16 layer multi layers, or four, or 18 or four 18 layer multi layers - it's been done you know. Now a shop; instead of trying to build a 72 layer multilayer - if they're building 18 layer components - it's a lot more manageable. Hmm, that totally makes sense. So you explained some of the benefits -  it's a nightmare, and you've seen, we've all seen these cross-sections of these crazy stackups with all the sequential LAM and drilling cycles and all of that. And then - and also kind of an unintended consequence you can get, is you can - from a performance standpoint - if you do enough of that right can't you get excess copper on the surface features? Yes - that's a very good point. So in other words, if you're going through many plating cycles depending on how you break that up and you're trying to meet a wrap requirement,  that could definitely add up and make it - make fine line etching more difficult there's a lot of - there are some some drawbacks to traditional processing and then with with an Ormet style process, or a paste interconnect style process, you can eliminate some of those things even with an RF design. Let's say you have very sensitive surface features and you don't want to play with that layer. You might want to put on the surface finish, the nickel gold, but you don't want to put any additional copper - you want just the original foil copper. You could do that with this paste because you could create that as, almost like a double sided board, and then bond it to the rest of the stack up at the very end, and you're done. Interesting. So I think you mentioned too, there's some good signal integrity benefits, did we cover that I don't recall? No, so one of the things that a lot of designs call for is something called back drill. So you're familiar with that, so you do the back drilling to get rid of the unwanted copper. So again, in my earlier example let's say you're connecting layer 1 and 10, and let's just say it's a 22 layer - 26 layer multi-layer. You're going to have a lot of extra copper metal in that via that you really don't need or want. So common technology is to back drill down to layer 10. Now of course drilling to that precise location or depth, to remove the copper up to layer 10, but not beyond. It can cause a reliability concern that's a bit of a challenge. So there's those issues. What you can do with the paste technology is let's just separate that board at layer 10, and not put a via on that half  that goes from layer 11 to whatever the other layer is and you're done. So you can eliminate back drilling and the parasitic effects of having that extra copper and the via so that's another application. So there's some signal integrity benefits, there are some RF applications, there are some high layer cap, multi-layer applications, but also many layer HDI applications; it really depends on how you design it and use the paste. So if you're a designer what kind of design considerations do you need to make up front? Okay, my recommendation would be is: think about the design, think where it would make sense to split up the layers and provide the most design benefit. Generally speaking, we like the via to have a one-to-one or less, aspect ratio. Now that might sound restrictive, but it's only in that one B stage layer. So then that's an important consideration. So in other words, if I have 5 mm of B stage, I won't want my via to be 5 mm or larger where I'm going to apply the paste. It has to do more with the paste physics and how it fills the via and then of course the pad, the receptor pad that you're putting the laser drill via on, needs to be a sufficient size for where the paste doesn't have the opportunity to run on one side or the other of the pad. So we do like an annular ring around the via, that's going to have a lot to do with how well you can register your laser drilling, usually that's pretty good. The other consideration is, the B stage you use, spread glasses - bringing up spread glass again. Spread glass is good, because it tends to keep the paste corralled, whereas if you have an open weave and that prepreg resin's melting and flowing and during the lamination cycle the paste could run to that area. So spread glass is better. Higher viscosity resins tend to be better. We like low flow prepregs. So those are some of the design considerations. Another design consideration is - and I've seen this happen before - where if you have a ground area and you're making a lot of paste interconnects along a wide track. You don't want to put the paste interconnect to the edge of the track because what ends up happening is, during lamination, the resin wants to flow off the surface of the track down the sides to fill - hydraulic effect, and it's going to move the paste with it. I've seen vias actually move during lamination. So just some common-sense things. Keeping in mind that it's the B stage where your interconnect is. You want to make sure you put that in some good locations, and in that particular case all they had to do is, go back and shift the vias a little bit to one side and then everything was fine. So it's just those kinds of things. Certainly they could contact us, we can give them some design hints and I can give you some literature to go along with this video or podcast. Yeah, yeah, very good. Ormet and the paste interconnect - paste sintering - has been around for a little while. What's been the sort of acceptance of it industry-wide? Is it being widely accepted, is it just on certain applications? It's been around a long time. It was primarily used for quick-turn mic review work, and also large format boards where you're literally stitching very large boards together so you can - again the idea is you can make boards that are nearly finished and then electrically interconnect them. The nice thing about the Ormet paste is it doesn't melt at reflow assembly. Hmm, so it changes chemically right, so once the sintering is done then it doesn't change, then it doesn't morph and heat? What attracted us to this technology over some other paste interconnects - because there's other processes where you would apply a paste of some sort and then make a connection with pressure in the z-axis - but what interested us in the Ormet material is: the paste melts at one temperature and alloys - so the paste is basically copper particles with a tin alloy powder. When the tin alloy powder melts - and the melting starts at about 130° Celsius, it starts reacting with the copper and forms an alloy with the copper instead. What's interesting about the Ormet material is, it's alloying with the inner layer coppers as well, on the PCB layers. So we have a metallurgical joint, not just a pressure or contact connection. So it's - and unlike, the tin lead or lead-free alloys and solder, the melt - the new melting point, when it forms an alloy with copper is one phase is 415°, the other is 630° Celsius. So it's not going to remelt that assembly. So it's a permanent connection, so really the paste applications from other technologies like flip chip and whatnot packages where you didn't want to have a secondary or - if you have a secondary reflow operation - you didn't want to have any more remelt. It has some applications there. Or a down hole assembly is another application where the board might be subjected to the temperatures near the solder melting point is another good application for this material. So that's what interests us because you know when a board's in use, it heats up the z-axis expansion with other types of pastes interconnects, you have a resistance change every time the board is heated even from, let's say 40, 50, 60° Celsius in normal use, not even in any kind of environment - parts of the board would heat up from the components and you'd have a change in resistance, and that's what this is designed to circumvent because it forms that metallurgical bond with the copper inner layers. Interesting. So yeah it's a different technology than the paste you would use in printed electronics. Okay well that's been fascinating. Again I feel like a newcomer to old technology but - and I've known about Ormet that I think got acquired by Merck now, but I've just never had someone sit down and explain it to me. So thank you for doing that. 90 layer multi layers people are getting - 90... What! Yes, 90 layer multi layers with paste interconnects yeah. That's crazy, I didn't even know a 90 layer board existed I guess. Yeah I've only really seen them into the 60s I guess personally, so. Yeah you know, one common design was a 72 layer multi-layer, again made out of eighteen layer components, and  one of the things with the chip tests the ATE companies, they built some high layer count multi layers and you need a lot of IOs, there's a trend to go to wafer level testing were you’re testing the entire wafer. You need lots of interconnects and that's one way to get there, is to use the Ormet paste to put in lots of layers. So we're seeing more interest in it lately, and I think that's one of the reasons why the technology hasn't taken off until now, is because there just wasn't the demand. Right ahead of its time maybe a little bit... Yeah. Well, I know you've shared with me some cross-sections or I think you did, and so please be sure to share those with us and we'll put those up on our website and we can share your website and Ormet or Mark's website, so the designers can get more information. Is there any place else besides your two websites that you would recommend for more information? You know I've mentioned HDPUG (High Density Packaging Users Group) in the past - they're actually contracting some PCB manufacturers to make some HDI test vehicles with paste interconnects. So there's going to be some data - anybody who's an HDPUG member will have some access to some really good reliability data and they're pretty complex boards so it'll really push the technology but for breaking up big thick and ugly PCBs, that's pretty well-established. Yeah very cool. Okay well thank you. So tell us about that fish on the wall behind you? [laughter] So it was a gift from my sister, actually it's made from recycled materials so there's an old PCB cut up on there, and the old spark plug wire, and a few other odds and ends. Some artists put together actually I didn't buy it; my sister bought it on Catalina Island and somehow we went out there as a family trip and somehow she smuggled it off the island and gave it to me just before she headed back to Virginia. So it was kind of cool. Oh that's fun a good throwback to your diver self. Yeah so - just the last thing on Ormet, is 'paste don't plate'. [laughter]. Is that their tagline or is that yours? Actually that's their tagline. We were sharing it with the IPC shows, but another nice benefit to the Ormet - which I didn't mention earlier is - there's no electrolysis, no plating processes in these interconnect layers so it circumvents all that. Which is like bizarre for me to think about but... Yeah but if you're capacity constrained, no plating, that's another benefit. Well thanks again this has been really good. If you have anything else juicy to share with the listeners just email it over before we get this one up. Okay. And thanks again for this one. Now I know we've talked about exploring down the road a little bit on copper foil, integrity issues, and also printed electronics. So I'm sure I'll hit you up again soon Chris. Yeah definitely. I would like to talk about some of the material science behind printed electronics and I know you guys are working on some new design tools and print electronics; there are a lot of different ways to use that in electronics... I should back up, but there's a lot of different ways to use conductive inks in electronics there are so many different versions of the inks. Which is another subject I know nothing about so it'll be good. I'll be a student with our listeners and, I know they're out there, I know what conductive inks are, but as far as all the applications, all the different materials available, that just seems like something that's in writing a lot, that people are really turning towards a solution. Lots of new technologies are coming out in that space and it's going to be fun to watch it all. Yeah yeah it will be. Okay Chris, thanks for another good podcast and we'll see you soon. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. Again this has been Judy Warner with the OnTrack Podcast and Chris Hunrath from Insulectro, we'll see you next time - until then - always stay OnTrack. 

Learn about what is involved in true concurrent engineering and get practical tips for including stakeholders early on in the design process with Bill Brooks from Nordson Asymtek. When  project collaborators come together up front, then they move forward together. Hear how Bill spends the time up front to get everyone aligned during the PCB design process to ensure fabrication and assembly processes progress with minimal issues.   Show Highlights: Bill had an interesting childhood. His Dad was an inventor and worked on the Pioneer 10 spacecraft. He introduced Bill to the electronics industry. He also started a board shop in the garage and created his own hydro-squeegee, using peanut oil. Bill’s career started when he worked as an Electronics Technician for almost two years. When his employer started hiring designers to do PCB layout work, he grasped the opportunity. Back in the day, people used to sign their PCB artwork. There are a host of stakeholders involved, the designer is like the glue that holds everything together. Some of the stakeholders are: Fabrication, Assembly, Testing, Marketing, Managers and Engineers. When do you get the stakeholders involved in the PCB Design process? The IPC standard is to have a design review upfront, before design. The designer is the only one who can control moving the design through the process and make the board survive. We involve many stakeholders from the outset. Divisions like purchasing takes care of primary suppliers to ensure they can provide what’s required. We do system integration in-house. Partnering with other companies has become a big deal and it’s working very well. What does Concurrent Engineering mean? Considering all aspects, together, upfront, then moving forward together.  Spend the time upfront to avoid wasted time and effort later in the process. Educate people who have control, they take care of everyone and everything goes smoothly, works correctly, and is right first time. Bill’s Dad used to say ‘the hurrier I go, the behinder I get.’ You need a disciplined management team to do the work upfront, be quick but don’t hurry. A ‘quick and dirty prototype’ is a myth. Use software to load projects into a common depository - keep it current and work in cohesion with regular refreshing. Bill and their team use Playbook, which enables managers to have a full overview of every division’s progress and enable proper scheduling. Designers after hours: in 2008 Bill was introduced to sculpting. Started attending classes, commencing a 6-year love affair with sculpting. He now teaches on Saturdays. Rick Hartley encouraged Bill to do mentoring. Bill is now part of the International IPC Executive Board and has received an award for his contributions.   Links and Resources: Nordson Asymtek The Green Art House AltiumLive 2018: Annual PCB Design Summit   Hey everyone this is Judy Warner with Altium's OnTrack Podcast. Thanks again for joining. Today we have another great guest - do you ever get tired of me saying that? Another great guest because we just have them every time, and we'll be talking with Bill Brooks today from Nordson ASYMTEK, and before we get started, I just wanted to remind you to please follow me on LinkedIn. On Twitter I'm @AltiumJudy and Altium is on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter - and also if you'd rather watch this on video we also have this on Altium's YouTube channel under videos, and you'll see all of our podcasts recorded there as well. So today we have Bill Brooks, has been a great contributor to the industry, as well as being a very talented designer in his own right. So I thought you would enjoy learning about his long history in the craft of PCB design, so Bill welcome; thank you so much for joining us here. Bill comes from just up the freeway here from our office in La Jolla, so it's handy to get him over. So Bill won't you talk about your professional history? I think you, like many printed circuit board designers; you were kind of set up to be in this industry, but you found your own path. So, tell us a little bit about that? Yeah I guess when I was a kid I didn't know where I was gonna go... Yeah me neither. -my dad kind of introduced me to the electronics world, and right out of high school actually, I was still in high school - my dad was working in the aerospace industry and he decided to start his own printed circuit board shop. He looked around San Diego at the time, and there weren't a lot of shops to go get boards made and he said: well, I can do this. And so he looked up the information and we started making printed circuit boards in the garage. Good times, that was a long time ago where you could set up a board shop in your garage. Yeah it was - today it'd be completely illegal. Yeah right. [laughter] I think the neighbors complained, he created his own hydro-squeegee and he was using a fusing oil, which was I guess peanut oil, and he bought this big 50 gallon drum of peanut oil and he used a check valve, and he put this - - he used air pressure to push it through a check valve and to spray it so he could put the boards down to get them hot after they had been coated with solder and then squeegee ''em out as he pushed on the pedal on the floor. And it would just make this nice beautiful- It's a handheld hot air leveling machine! -Yeah it was very dangerous, in fact, I think he got burned a couple times. Oh I'm sure! -but the neighbors just loved it because they’d look down at the corner of the cul-de-sac and they’d see this giant plume of black smoke coming out the back of the house, going: what's he doing over there? But dad was kind of an inventor and he liked to invent things. So he didn't go out and he was kind of a 'shade tree mechanic' - he'd figure out how to get something done on a dime and do it himself. And I guess that same ingenuity was something I picked up, I figure out how to get things done. So how did you end up going down the design path, from building boards in the garage? Hmmm it was kind of convoluted. I thought I wanted to be an Electronics Tech and eventually Electronics Engineer, and I started down that path. I got a job with a company that was making television headend equipment; the transmitter part of it, there was channel 52 UHF subscription television, Oak Systems and I started working as Electronics Tech for them and I did a lot of work for them for, oh at least two years as a Tech, and they were hiring in printed circuit board designers to do the layout work. And I had already learned how to do layout work with my dad's shop when I was younger and I looked at that, and I said: welI can do that. How much do you make? And I think I was making like seven bucks an hour at the time, and they were making like 10 or 11. And I said: I could do that, and I told my bosses I want to do that - I can do that!  And they were: okay we'll get you in the other department and I started working in the drafting department. So I got a $3 an hour raise and I started doing layout work instead. And it kind of set me down that path. So that's how I got started anyway. So Bill, a lot of people that have been around a while, both you and I have been around a while. There's no college to learn what you've learned. So how did you pick up, we were discussing this earlier; you've done so many aspects - RF, some electronics and mechanical, how did you pick up all those skill sets, sort of along the way? Yeah that's kind of a long story really. My dad started me when he had his shop, and gave me a printed circuit board to do as a way to teach me how to do layout- Okay. -and we went to the TI Handbook and found a circuit for an audio amplifier - 10 watt audio amplifier and he said, why don't you try to build that? And so I made a schematic, I took the schematic from it, and I laid out the board and we manufactured the board and I bought the parts and I put them on the board, and I soldered them and turned it on and talked through a microphone - it worked and I went: yes that's hot! It's so funny. I remember in seventh or eighth grade, we had a science fair in junior high and everybody made their science project; we had a bunch of tables all set up and my dad said, well why don't you make something - - an electronic metronome? It has to do with music, and so I drew a schematic and I put the whole thing up there, and I built the metronome and I turned it on so it'd go 'tick-tock' 'tick-tock' you know, and I thought that was amazing. It was a really great and one of my friends said: Bill that was so cool, how you did that because I didn't have to do any of the work and I still got credit for it and I said well it was it was a challenge. So I took it on I put it up there but I didn't win a darn thing! The guys who made the volcano that spews out all the stuff - they got that prize. So people didn't appreciate what I was doing. I felt a little bit geeky and kind of out of the norm as I was growing up. But I was fascinated with electronics. I was almost intimidated by it. My dad was a very good R&D guy, and he worked in the aerospace industry and he actually worked on the Pioneer 10 spacecraft, it traveled all the way past Jupiter and it's outside our solar system headed on for Aldebaran now I think. That's crazy. So that's kind of a neat thing and I think on one of his print circuit boards, if you find down in the little corner you'll find his initials there- Out in the outer regions of space. -yeah and I talked with Dr. Walker Fillius, he was the principal on the project at UCSD and after my dad passed away and he sent me back an email and he said: you know someday these little green men out there they're gonna find that and wonder: what does that mean? Why did they put that there? And a lot of people did that back in those days, you used to be so proud of your artwork you'd want to sign it and they did. Right, that's funny. Yeah. So from I have to say, I think that was probably really invaluable experience for you, very young, to put together that design affected manufacturing, affected assembly, affected performance. Like at a very young age, you saw that whole overarching process - sort of on a small scale - but still; and not everybody gets that experience even today, few designers. Few designers have ever been in a shop and actually made a print circuit board. A lot of them are dealing with the drafting side of it; they don't see the whole process. Right and it makes such a difference to decisions you make as a designer. Absolutely. Right and so I can see how that sort of set you on a path to be a little bit more globally minded about the whole soup-to-nuts kind of - - from design to reliability or how something is actually functioning. It has a lot to do with curiosity, it's funny; I've been listening to a book about Leonardo da Vinci and one thing that was amazing about him is, he had this insatiable curiosity, to almost distraction, I mean he would look at things and go: why does it work that way? And he'd start, he'd set himself a task to figure it out - and he didn't have a college or someplace to go learn those things - he had to do it himself. I've done a lot of the same kind of things in my life. I get fascinated with something and I go: well, I can figure that out, I'll go figure it out - all it takes is being brave enough to try and not being afraid to fail. Failure is just an opportunity to learn more. So I think it was Edison once said , he did like hundreds of different ways to try to do a light bulb and he said, well now I know a hundred different ways not to make a light bulb, it's okay- I still finally need way to know how to do it right? -but those those skills and the curiosity drove me into expanding my knowledge base. Getting into printed circuit boards, I wanted to learn how to take the thing I knew how to make, and turn it into something that was a product. I wanted to find out how to make that product appealing to somebody so that it made them happy with the product and not unhappy with it. And that kind of dovetails with what we were talking about before. We have, as designers we're kind of the glue to the whole design process. We may not come up with the initial idea that needs to be created, but we take that idea and we turn it into reality and we not only have to turn it into reality, so that it's electrically functional, but it can be manufactured in a reasonable way that's not super expensive, that's reliable, that survives harsh environments or abuse. It has to be testable so you can provide for test points and things of that nature. There are a whole bunch of stakeholders involved. People who are - their job is keyed on being able to take what I create and turn it into a product that they can actually sell. The marketing people have to make sure that the product meets the customer’s needs. I have to be aware of that when I'm designing it so, I don't design in some function that makes it fail there. I have to be aware of those things. So the designer - they're kind of the key glue to the whole group. But I find that very refreshing and I think most professional designers, from our early days of making a simple 2 layer board say, it's so much more complex now. So we tend to like head down, into our specialty right and I think, as you have said some engineers/designers have never been inside of a board shop. Right it gives you myopia, you can only see just your part of the whole process. And I can understand that because, I don't say that from a critical perspective, it's a very complex process. We're time constrained, resource-constrained, so it's hard to put your head up for a moment so- You just named some of the stakeholders. -I would say fabrication for sure, assembly, testing... You mentioned a marketing department, probably managers too. Managers all have cost and time constraints, they have time to market that they have to be worried about. The engineers of course, typically are going to be concerned about, can they get the parts or are the parts available; are they gonna be end of life parts? Yeah that's a whole fun bag of fun there. The hardest part for some designers is, they'll get the board 90% done and then the engineer comes back and goes: I can't get that part anymore, I need to put a different part in and that's bigger than the one I gave you before. And so you got to go back and fix the circuit, so you can fit that bigger part in there and make it work. And it gets quite challenging. So when do you recommend to get those stakeholders on board and collaborating? That's a great question and funny - if you go through the IPC; I think it's 2221-standard - it's like the very first - almost first paragraph and the thing it says: make sure you have a design review up front first, before the designing begins. Why do they say that? Those people all are going to bring their expertise, and their wants and desires, and their concerns to that meeting. Well they're gonna be a part of that and give that information to the designer who really is the only person who has control over what it ends up being. The creator - they are the creator; they take all the information and they create something that can be built, tested, cost-effective, survive, functional, not have EMI problems, EMC problems... it has to pass safety agency requirements like TV and UL you know? Yeah. Or stand somebody handling it and giving it an ESD shock - thousands of volts - how's it going to survive that? You know, we do Hipot testing, there's a lot of work that goes into making a board that just is not - just connect the dots. So you're now working with Nordson ASYMTEK, which makes assembly equipment correct, or is there more than that? Their key thing, the company I work for they're making robotic equipment. The equipment allows manufacturers to do high-speed manufacturing very reliably and typically they're dispensing fluids. They have a few divisions that do board inspection. They have one that does plasma cleaning- Mm-hmm. -it's very common, I think it's MARCH - - I think is the name of it, something like that, but primarily we focus on fluid dispensing; got lots of patents on fluid dynamics, how to dispense a dot of material that's the exact amount of the material, in the right viscosity, of the right mix of materials, and at the right place , at the right time. Right. Very, very challenging stuff - we've come up with some really high tech equipment that are making our customers real happy. That's great, so when you do, on a practical, where the rubber meets the road stuff - when you embark on a new design - do you get the stakeholders together? I mean how do you do that? We get a large number of them involved. We have a purchasing department that cares about who our primary suppliers are. They review them; we go qualify them, make sure that they're going to be able to supply what we want, when we want it, at the price we want it. We use third-party vendors to make the boards, assemble the boards, test them. We put everything together in-house. They call us a system integrator kind of thing - and I guess that's one way to refer it. So the final assembly stuff all happens in the factory; and then we ship overseas and here in the United States and Europe. So you used a term which I've heard before and just tell me what it means to you, is the term 'concurrent engineering'? I was introduced to that a while back, and to me it was confusing at first. Of course I've been in the industry a long time and there used to be a model where engineering would be a little black box and inside, all the engineers do all their stuff in there, and it was black magic, and they got it all done and then they went; pop - and they threw it over the fence and said: okay, you guys figure out how to make it. And that's as far as they went. Engineers were done; okay, I'm working on my next thing have fun. And the manufacturing engineers get it and go: oh my god, how are we gonna build this thing? And they almost had to re-engineer it to make it producible. So that model was going along for quite a long time here in the United States, before they started analyzing what the Japanese were doing and looking at their manufacturing process. It was very organized, and they introduced just-in-time, which has affected the whole supplier chain. But partnering with other companies to be able to be successful has become a big deal and they can reduce the number of staff that they need to do what they need to do. They can have highly qualified people doing what they need to do - they don't need masses of people - and then they can subcontract things out get them delivered on time, put them together and get them out the door and they're very very good at it. Concurrent engineering means thinking about everything up front. Not just your part of putting it in a black box and playing around with it until you're happy and then flipping it out and saying: you guys figure out how to build it. You want to bring the people that are stakeholders in up front. And then together, you move as a group. And the people involved in the engineering part of it have to understand those people's jobs, because they're their customers. Right. They're the ones -  they're gonna use what they create. So we spend more time up front to make sure that they don't have to work harder, that they don't have to redo it, that we don't waste money and time out there with failures and have to come back and make changes and send it back out, saying: how about this one? No that's not good enough you've got to do it again. Oh how about that one? No that's not good either. So you educate the people that have control of it - they put the intelligence into it to take care of them and everything goes smoothly, and we make a lot more product, a lot less expensive, and that's right the first time. You and I were swapping some little statements right? So one I remember you saying - - I don't remember who you cited: the hurrier I go... That was my dad... -that was your dad. Yeah 'the hurrier I go, the behinder I get'. [laughter] Yeah and that's so true I mean it's funny if you have this: I'm the only important person in the world, and what I'm doing is the most important thing and I don't care what anybody else thinks or wants to do. You can create something, in fact, I've seen some amazing sculpture, of components that were soldered together and in the most amazing ways and it was an electrical circuit, it worked, functioned. Yeah - but if you touched it, it would fail, if you moved it, it would fail. It wasn't built - it was just to see what would happen to the electrons when they get moved around that way. So people - and there's a desire - typically management, has traditionally figured, well - if you whip the horses harder and make them go faster you'll get there sooner. I have seen that by the way being a board manufacturer and selling to and working with designers. The constraints are brutal sometimes... They can be. -and it's like, well if you want me to put out good work, you need to give me a little bit more margin right and so I think, to your point is, you had also said that it's really a myth, the idea of a quick and dirty prototype. Yeah it really is - it's kind of a myth - I've worked in environments where there was a philosophy that said: we can be faster if we just slap something together and we go build it and we bring it back and see what it does. I think the people that had that idea probably didn't have any simulation tools. They didn't have any way to predict how it was going to behave - so they would make one and go try it, and then they'd find out how it didn't work and make another adjustment. So I remember working on a board that had 17 or 18 different iterations of them trying different things... That's so expensive and such a time suck! -Very expensive and it takes a lot of patience - you just kind of have to work with them and keep going and keep going. But we win when you get a management group who - I happen to work for one - it's very, very smart people, they'd like to do it right the first time. So they spend the extra time upfront. They do the research, they analyze what's going on, and then they go build it. When they build it and bring it in we're like 98 percent there, most of the time. Very few times maybe we get one or two little blue wires and we're good to go and take a few changes boom -  you're out the door. And that's a good thing and CAD tools help us do that too, by the way. Yeah well, and that's a really insightful management team I think, to know that if you take the disciplined time to do it up front, it really saves you so much on the back end in regards to time, money, and resources. I always like John Wooden's quote; he used to say: be quick but don't hurry, it's the same thing - like be nimble and quick - we don't want you dragging your feet but don't be hasty. I think part of it is just having a good work ethic, the self-discipline to say: you know what, I'm here, I'm gonna focus on this, I'm gonna get it done, and I'm not gonna let Joe come over and talk to me over a half hour about the thing he was doing up on the mountains last weekend, or stop and shoot with people at the water cooler or whatever. I'm gonna stay focused on it and when I'm not here then I'm doing other things, but when I'm here I'm focused. And I think that the managers; they should analyze the people and look and see what kind of people they have, and try to work with them to get them to have that work ethic. We've got lots of distractions in our world, plenty of them, things that can take us all over the place, so it's just a personal discipline I think. So we talked about, in those cases - I'm thinking about the people that are designers that are listening to us that may not have such an insightful management team as the one you work with and I'm sure you've worked for other less insightful management teams. How do you recommend that you tactfully, and professionally, push back to say, I need five more minutes to get this right  - how do you do that? Well to frame it as pushback, is probably not politically nice but it's a communication. I think one of the things that you don't do, is you don't go off into a dark room somewhere and then pop out with a design later on and they're going: what's happening what's, happening, what's happening. So you have to have a lot of open lines of communication with your team. We use SVN as a way to load our projects into a common repository and then the other engineers that are working, can download that and refresh it, make it current so the master is in the SVN file. So I'm working on basically a copy that I refresh every time I do some work. And I do that regularly, I don't wait very long and I'm refreshing it - I'd do it many times an hour sometimes. And sometimes maybe I go for a couple hours and then we'll refresh it, but it's mostly based on how much change I have made to it. The idea is to keep it current and keep the lines of communication with the other people concurrent so that they're aware of what's going on if they're busy working on the schematic while I'm working on the board we can do that in parallel, and I can do my parts get them done and then they can say, oh I found out I have to change this part, or I need this other circuit in there and I've just uploaded it - you can pull it in and and make the changes. And we do that very often. Which is really great and I know here at Altium, R&D is working very hard to make sure that people can work concurrently and building those subversion networks and, even going beyond that, as we delve into Nexus and other products is to enable that, so you guys are seeing each other work in real time. Often times this is kind of a neat thing about that tool. We typically, the group I'm in is the new product development group, so we take the 'pie in the sky guys' stuff and we turn it into a product. Then we have Reliability Engineers who have to design a testbed to test the product. So oftentimes when the schematic gets to 90% they've got a copy of it and they're looking at it while we're designing it... And there's the concurrent engineering isn't there! -Exactly. It really is a tool that enables that concurrent chain. It enables it - so we're able to do that and then the guys in production want to know what's going on with it, so they can pull down a copy and look at it, and then the next time we have a review meeting they'll bring their thoughts to the meeting and they can say: we like what you did over here, but we'd like to change this because it helps us be more efficient, and we can run that back there because we need to do that; we listen to them... Which is so great. -having that dynamic - real-time communication - it's really huge in being successful the first time. Yeah that's great, it's great to hear. So but... tact is used to push back. -tact yes. I used to joke with my boss; did you ever see the movie The Money Pit? Yes. And the: we're gonna fix the house and the farmer shows up and says, how long is it gonna take? Two weeks, two weeks. We used to do that. Looks like, wow this will take two weeks. Most people can accept two weeks, but we've got a new tool now at work; Playbook - and it allows them to get all the stakeholders involved in helping us schedule the project. So people who say I'm gonna have my test part of it ready at this time, and I'm gonna have the board ready at this time, and I'm gonna have my schematic ready at this time. The managers can see the whole thing without having a good run around and bug everybody - it's all right there. If there's a problem with a schedule - update it so we know what's going on. Tell us, and they get it; they see the impacts, they see when things are going to happen and they can strategize and make plans on how they're gonna pull something in or adjust something to be successful. That's great to create the level of transparency right? Yeah so pushback is really more... Well you know, that makes it sound like the manager's a bad guy. They've got a job to do and they've got to get a product to market in a timely way, at the right cost, so I'm just saying is sometimes to your earlier comment like the whips to the backs - at times it feels like that and sometimes you have to stop and go: okay... How can I communicate better? Yes, how can I communicate this in a way that makes me me your ally here? Exactly. I want to help you win, we're on the same team by the way, and me getting this done right the first time... You can help me be successful in doing it the first time, and you, and you, because I want to get all the things that you need into the design. That way you're happy with it and you can make it and you're not gonna go; damn that Bill Brooks - why did he do this? Oh gosh we love the finger pointing don't we? Yeah I've lived through a lot of that. Well Bill, this has been really good and really practical, I think where the rubber meets the road. And this part of the podcast, I sometimes like to call Designers After Hours. I want to particularly focus on what you do after hours because you are a very creative kind of - use both sides of your brain - but you have a very strong right brain. So can you tell us a little bit about what you do after hours when you're not designing boards? Gosh - let's see; was it 2008? I went through a divorce and I was trying to find something to do with my spare time and I got introduced by another engineer at Datron World Communications where I used to work; and he was taking classes in sculpting and he showed me a picture of a sculpture that he was creating; this head of his wife, and I had met his wife - she was wheelchair bound and it was so neat to see the love, you know. He is caring for her and she needs him to push her around and whatever. But he was making a sculpture of her and I thought that was really cool and the likeness was amazing! I thought, you really did a good job, I was really impressed with it. How in the world did you learn how to do that? Because I'm taking classes in Carlsbad. Bullshit - what? Nobody teaches that right, I don't see classes for sculpture anywhere. Where do you find that? And he says, no it's real, you should come check it out. So I made a point to go down and meet the teacher and the teacher introduced me to it and I thought, this looks like too much fun I’ve got try it. And that started about a six-year love affair with sculpting. And now I'm currently teaching it so - there's a place called The Green Art House in Fallbrook and every Saturday I've got a class there and I teach sculpting and it's fun. And we will share this link by the way, because your mind will be blown. He doesn't just do a little hobby sculpting - these are amazing sculptures he makes! And oh my goodness, and then I start prodding him about painting... Oh yeah I would love to take a painting class. Bill says, oh yeah I do that too. About two years ago - maybe almost three - I was at a gallery where I had my bronze sculptures that I had made from the sculpting studio and I was trying to see how they would be accepted in the public and so forth. So I had them in a gallery and I met a guy there, Richard Struggles who's a teacher, and he teaches how to paint and so I got brave one day and I thought: I could do this. So I went down to Michael's and I went through the paint department found the primary colors and some paintbrushes and a canvas and I said I could do this and I just bought it and took it home and I thought I'll find a picture I like and I'm gonna try it. Well about three hours later I said, you know it's not bad - it doesn't look too bad, I bet if somebody taught me I could do better. So I asked him, I says I see you teaching people, can I come? He said sure come on down. So that started me learning how to paint and I've done about eight or nine paintings. One of them's a triptych; it's some cheetahs it's hanging in my mother's home, behind her couch and it's real pretty and a lot of horses. I know I love horses I owned a horse and so I love your sculptures and your paintings of horses. I used to have horses too - so I know that bond and the connection with the animal - it's amazing. So anyways, just for giggles we will share Bill's amazing artwork there because he does have a good after-hours gift there. Will you please share with me any -  I know you've shared with me some links and things we'll make sure we put those up for our listeners that could glean more information from Bill. Bill's also taught PCB at our local college here, and he has mentored many people as well as being mentored throughout his career. I can blame that on Rick Hartley. Rick Hartley who we just had on the podcast today. Yes he was, in fact, he cornered me. We were doing an interview right after the Top Gun at PCB West, and he said: Bill, you've got a lot of experience. Have you ever thought of mentoring? And I said, no I never thought about it, to me making boards was just a way to get a paycheck. Get paid, go home, buy food take care of family do all that stuff. And that seed it planted, made me seek out the IPC Designers Council and I joined the local group in San Diego, eventually became part of the board, and then I joined the International Group and actually became part of the Executive Committee and also the Education Committee. And I think I've got an Emeritus Status now with them. I mean I've been with them a long time and I've contributed as much as I could. In fact they gave me an award once for contributing to the industry so it's good fun. Yeah we'll provide all the links we can. We thank you again for joining us Bill. Thanks for joining us today in office and again this has been Judy Warner with Altium's OnTrack Podcast and Bill Brooks with Nordson ASYMTEK. Thanks for listening, we'll see you next time. Until then, always stay on track.

Paste Don’t Plate! People are doing 90 layer multilayers with paste interconnects. Want to learn more? Find out about paste sintering from Chris Hunrath to learn more about its applications and benefits to PCB designers. What must designers consider and what are the advantages of Ormet’s products? Listen in for insights from the expert in this week’s episode.   Show Highlights: New material developments make paste interconnect technology more feasible Ormet’s paste sinters at one temperature forming a new alloy with higher melting point Paste interconnects allow for changing build sequence in which vias are formed i.e. drill, add paste, and then laminate - giving you interconnects inside a double-sided core with no visible vias Multilayer PCBs: Can split up a 32-layer board to two 16-layers (even as many as 4 x 18 layer multilayers - which is much easier to build Also reduces risk depending on design - electrically test each half and only use the good ones Ormet process/paste interconnect process eliminates traditional drawbacks i.e. excess copper on surface features Eliminate backdrilling with paste interconnect process without extra copper in the via Ormet paste eliminates electrolysis and plating process Signal integrity benefits Applications: RF, high-layer multi cap, avoid secondary remelt, downhole assembly etc Design considerations: Where to split up layers for best design benefit; Via at 1:1 or less aspect ratio - only in 1 B stage layer and correct size via for applying paste; Size of receptor pad for laser drill via must be correct to prevent paste from running - spread glass is good for B-stage; annular ring around the via to register laser drilling; with many paste interconnects - don't paste to the edge. Paste melts and forms alloy with inter layer copper creating a permanent metallurgical joint People are doing 90 layer multilayers with paste interconnects. HDPUG (HDP User Group) is creating HDI test vehicles with paste interconnects and HDPUG members will have access to reliability data for breaking up big PCBs Paste don’t plate! Future topics: Many ways to use conductive inks in electronics, copper foil, integrity issues and printed electronics. Material science behind electronics, new design tools, various versions of conductive inks         Links and Resources: Ormet Pastes HD PUG Chris Hunrath on Linkedin Insulectro Click to listen to Chris Hunrath’s other episodes about Spread Glass or Material Sets. Hi everyone. This is Judy Warner with Altium's OnTrack Podcast. Welcome back, here we are again with your friend and mine, Chris Hunrath from Insulectro who's going to teach us about paste sintering today, which I don't know much about, but we're going to learn about it together. But before we get started, remember to hit all the typical Altium social media platforms Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter please follow me on LinkedIn and also remember we are recording on YouTube as well as Podbean and we can be found on all your favorite podcast apps. Alright, so today we're going to talk about - I don't even know how to set this up entirely cause I'm just as much as a student. So Chris, welcome back! Thank you again, and I know this isn't a new technology - it's just not one that has crossed my path. So tell us about what paste sintering is and what the applications are, and benefits to our designers that are listening today? Okay, interconnect technology, as you mentioned is not new, what's happened recently though is there's been some new material developments that make it more feasible for the circuit boards. Certainly in ceramic fire technology, metal - powdered metals have been used to make interconnects and traces and circuits on ceramic circuit boards, but those fire at 850-plus degrees Celsius, which would obviously destroy most PCB materials so there's some new technologies out now. There are different kinds of pastes that are used for interconnects. The one that we work with, and the one that we promote, is something from a company called Ormet, and their material is interesting because it sinters at one temperature and then it forms a new alloy with a higher melting point. Okay I feel like we need to back up and explain what paste interconnect technology actually is. Like how it's performed and then we can go into the material science part just so I can keep up, Chris I want to be able to keep up. So multi-layer PCBs - also not new - typically what you do is, you print and edge any number of layers, you drill and then you plate. Typically electroless copper, to make the non-conductive surfaces conductive, and then you build up the thickness with electrolytic copper. Mmm-hm. And some people call it a semi-edited process, because you are using the electroless first as a seed layer. There are some other technologies used to make that dielectric surface conductive, and then you build up with electrolytic copper and so that's how you link the layers of the z-axis. So if you think of a classically - as a circuit board - as a web of foils printed and etched, all your XY  connections, and then the drilled holes - whether they're laser drilled, blind vias, or drilled through holes, the plating links everything in the z-axis. Now one of the challenges when you do that, is you're consuming real estate at all the layers. So let's say you have a 12 layer multi-layer - relatively simple multi-layer by today's standards - but you need to connect layer 1 to layer 10 you've taken up the real estate in all the other layers - you can't route circuits in those places, because there's a via in the way, unless you wanted them to connect to that via and they're part of that net. So there's a term called any layer HDI - I don't know if you're familiar with that term? Basically it means you could put a via anywhere you want in any layer. Nowadays that's done typically by what we call build up technology. So you start with a core of some sort - again it could be double sided, it could be a multi-layer core, and then you sequentially build layers and you only go one layer deep with a laser drill sometimes two - depending on the design - but that's not true for any layer. Anyway, you go one layer deep you plate, you print and etch, and you do it again and again and that allows you to put vias almost anywhere you want in any layer, the downside is, it's almost like building multiple circuit boards. So the cost really starts to increase. And of course you're putting the board through multiple lamination cycles and that has some undesirable material side effects depending on the material. Some materials can withstand three lamination cycles, some six, some ten, but it is hard on the materials to go through that lamination process, over and over again. Right. Especially electric phenolics, which are very common for lead-free assembly, because they're relatively economic and they're also -  they also will survive lead pre-assembly, but they tend to get more brittle every time they see a thermal cycle though, so that causes some issues too. So what paste interconnects allow you to do, is change the sequence in which the vias are formed. So instead of laminating drilling and plating you can actually drill, add the paste, and then laminate, so it changes the build sequence and this is important both for the fabricator and the designer to understand what that means. So typically what you would do is, you would take a B stage layer of some sort; you can either drill it and paste, fill it with what we call a postage stamp process or you could pre-tack it, vacuum tack it at low temperature to a core of some sort, or substrate, laser drill through the B stage, apply the paste and then when you laminate the paste interconnects, the layers in the z-axis - you could literally take a piece of prepreg, laser drill it with a stencil or with a Mylar Stencil, I'll talk about how that works in a little bit - apply the paste, remove the Mylar laminate between two copper foils, and now you've got interconnects inside a double-sided cork. That's cool. So then if you print and etch that, now you've got a core with connections between the layers with no visible vias; they're all internal. Yeah there's some technology around the paste and again we can talk about that, in a little bit. So how is it applied - is it squeegeed in? Yeah. Okay, just like with a silkscreen? Well no screen - so what typically what you do is, you apply a 1 mm Mylar mask to the B stage and you tack it simultaneously. Then when you drill through the Mylar and the prepreg B stage to get down to your copper features, then you apply the paste, and the Mylar's your mask, and then you remove that just prior to lamination. And that stays inside the hole? It doesn't just I don't know the consistency of it. My mind was - pictured it just wanting to drop out of that hole - but it must have some kind of stability? Yeah it's a liquid and there is a tack right. There are a number of ways to do this, but the most common method is to laser drill, apply the paste, dry the paste... you would do it a second time to top it off and then when you remove the Mylar, the liquid paste stays on top of the paste that's already been applied. Then you dry it again, then you go to laminate. Does it air dry or do you have to cure it what do you do? You don't really cure it because it's metal powder - metal powder based - so there isn't really a polymer matrix. Unlike print electronic sinks - which is a again another story - you would just dry off any of the carrier solvent used for the application process. It is a liquid - well it's a paste, not a liquid - but but when you dry off the the solvent that's in it; which is less than 10 percent by weight, then it's just powdered metal and that's how it makes a connection. So think about this right, you've seen a lot of PCB designs - imagine a 32 layer board, which most shops can do, but it's not at the low end of technology. Imagine splitting it up to two 16 layer multi layers right? A lot easier. A lot easier to build and then you just paste them together at the end, and depending on the design, you can electrically test each half and only use the good ones. So your risk is  light. Oh, right. There's a lot of advantages to this. Or what if you want to put together three 16 layer multi layers, or four, or 18 or four 18 layer multi layers - it's been done you know. Now a shop; instead of trying to build a 72 layer multilayer - if they're building 18 layer components - it's a lot more manageable. Hmm, that totally makes sense. So you explained some of the benefits -  it's a nightmare, and you've seen, we've all seen these cross-sections of these crazy stackups with all the sequential LAM and drilling cycles and all of that. And then - and also kind of an unintended consequence you can get, is you can - from a performance standpoint - if you do enough of that right can't you get excess copper on the surface features? Yes - that's a very good point. So in other words, if you're going through many plating cycles depending on how you break that up and you're trying to meet a wrap requirement,  that could definitely add up and make it - make fine line etching more difficult there's a lot of - there are some some drawbacks to traditional processing and then with with an Ormet style process, or a paste interconnect style process, you can eliminate some of those things even with an RF design. Let's say you have very sensitive surface features and you don't want to play with that layer. You might want to put on the surface finish, the nickel gold, but you don't want to put any additional copper - you want just the original foil copper. You could do that with this paste because you could create that as, almost like a double sided board, and then bond it to the rest of the stack up at the very end, and you're done. Interesting. So I think you mentioned too, there's some good signal integrity benefits, did we cover that I don't recall? No, so one of the things that a lot of designs call for is something called back drill. So you're familiar with that, so you do the back drilling to get rid of the unwanted copper. So again, in my earlier example let's say you're connecting layer 1 and 10, and let's just say it's a 22 layer - 26 layer multi-layer. You're going to have a lot of extra copper metal in that via that you really don't need or want. So common technology is to back drill down to layer 10. Now of course drilling to that precise location or depth, to remove the copper up to layer 10, but not beyond. It can cause a reliability concern that's a bit of a challenge. So there's those issues. What you can do with the paste technology is let's just separate that board at layer 10, and not put a via on that half  that goes from layer 11 to whatever the other layer is and you're done. So you can eliminate back drilling and the parasitic effects of having that extra copper and the via so that's another application. So there's some signal integrity benefits, there are some RF applications, there are some high layer cap, multi-layer applications, but also many layer HDI applications; it really depends on how you design it and use the paste. So if you're a designer what kind of design considerations do you need to make up front? Okay, my recommendation would be is: think about the design, think where it would make sense to split up the layers and provide the most design benefit. Generally speaking, we like the via to have a one-to-one or less, aspect ratio. Now that might sound restrictive, but it's only in that one B stage layer. So then that's an important consideration. So in other words, if I have 5 mm of B stage, I won't want my via to be 5 mm or larger where I'm going to apply the paste. It has to do more with the paste physics and how it fills the via and then of course the pad, the receptor pad that you're putting the laser drill via on, needs to be a sufficient size for where the paste doesn't have the opportunity to run on one side or the other of the pad. So we do like an annular ring around the via, that's going to have a lot to do with how well you can register your laser drilling, usually that's pretty good. The other consideration is, the B stage you use, spread glasses - bringing up spread glass again. Spread glass is good, because it tends to keep the paste corralled, whereas if you have an open weave and that prepreg resin's melting and flowing and during the lamination cycle the paste could run to that area. So spread glass is better. Higher viscosity resins tend to be better. We like low flow prepregs. So those are some of the design considerations. Another design consideration is - and I've seen this happen before - where if you have a ground area and you're making a lot of paste interconnects along a wide track. You don't want to put the paste interconnect to the edge of the track because what ends up happening is, during lamination, the resin wants to flow off the surface of the track down the sides to fill - hydraulic effect, and it's going to move the paste with it. I've seen vias actually move during lamination. So just some common-sense things. Keeping in mind that it's the B stage where your interconnect is. You want to make sure you put that in some good locations, and in that particular case all they had to do is, go back and shift the vias a little bit to one side and then everything was fine. So it's just those kinds of things. Certainly they could contact us, we can give them some design hints and I can give you some literature to go along with this video or podcast. Yeah, yeah, very good. Ormet and the paste interconnect - paste sintering - has been around for a little while. What's been the sort of acceptance of it industry-wide? Is it being widely accepted, is it just on certain applications? It's been around a long time. It was primarily used for quick-turn mic review work, and also large format boards where you're literally stitching very large boards together so you can - again the idea is you can make boards that are nearly finished and then electrically interconnect them. The nice thing about the Ormet paste is it doesn't melt at reflow assembly. Hmm, so it changes chemically right, so once the sintering is done then it doesn't change, then it doesn't morph and heat? What attracted us to this technology over some other paste interconnects - because there's other processes where you would apply a paste of some sort and then make a connection with pressure in the z-axis - but what interested us in the Ormet material is: the paste melts at one temperature and alloys - so the paste is basically copper particles with a tin alloy powder. When the tin alloy powder melts - and the melting starts at about 130° Celsius, it starts reacting with the copper and forms an alloy with the copper instead. What's interesting about the Ormet material is, it's alloying with the inner layer coppers as well, on the PCB layers. So we have a metallurgical joint, not just a pressure or contact connection. So it's - and unlike, the tin lead or lead-free alloys and solder, the melt - the new melting point, when it forms an alloy with copper is one phase is 415°, the other is 630° Celsius. So it's not going to remelt that assembly. So it's a permanent connection, so really the paste applications from other technologies like flip chip and whatnot packages where you didn't want to have a secondary or - if you have a secondary reflow operation - you didn't want to have any more remelt. It has some applications there. Or a down hole assembly is another application where the board might be subjected to the temperatures near the solder melting point is another good application for this material. So that's what interests us because you know when a board's in use, it heats up the z-axis expansion with other types of pastes interconnects, you have a resistance change every time the board is heated even from, let's say 40, 50, 60° Celsius in normal use, not even in any kind of environment - parts of the board would heat up from the components and you'd have a change in resistance, and that's what this is designed to circumvent because it forms that metallurgical bond with the copper inner layers. Interesting. So yeah it's a different technology than the paste you would use in printed electronics. Okay well that's been fascinating. Again I feel like a newcomer to old technology but - and I've known about Ormet that I think got acquired by Merck now, but I've just never had someone sit down and explain it to me. So thank you for doing that. 90 layer multi layers people are getting - 90... What! Yes, 90 layer multi layers with paste interconnects yeah. That's crazy, I didn't even know a 90 layer board existed I guess. Yeah I've only really seen them into the 60s I guess personally, so. Yeah you know, one common design was a 72 layer multi-layer, again made out of eighteen layer components, and  one of the things with the chip tests the ATE companies, they built some high layer count multi layers and you need a lot of IOs, there's a trend to go to wafer level testing were you’re testing the entire wafer. You need lots of interconnects and that's one way to get there, is to use the Ormet paste to put in lots of layers. So we're seeing more interest in it lately, and I think that's one of the reasons why the technology hasn't taken off until now, is because there just wasn't the demand. Right ahead of its time maybe a little bit... Yeah. Well, I know you've shared with me some cross-sections or I think you did, and so please be sure to share those with us and we'll put those up on our website and we can share your website and Ormet or Mark's website, so the designers can get more information. Is there any place else besides your two websites that you would recommend for more information? You know I've mentioned HDPUG (High Density Packaging Users Group) in the past - they're actually contracting some PCB manufacturers to make some HDI test vehicles with paste interconnects. So there's going to be some data - anybody who's an HDPUG member will have some access to some really good reliability data and they're pretty complex boards so it'll really push the technology but for breaking up big thick and ugly PCBs, that's pretty well-established. Yeah very cool. Okay well thank you. So tell us about that fish on the wall behind you? [laughter] So it was a gift from my sister, actually it's made from recycled materials so there's an old PCB cut up on there, and the old spark plug wire, and a few other odds and ends. Some artists put together actually I didn't buy it; my sister bought it on Catalina Island and somehow we went out there as a family trip and somehow she smuggled it off the island and gave it to me just before she headed back to Virginia. So it was kind of cool. Oh that's fun a good throwback to your diver self. Yeah so - just the last thing on Ormet, is 'paste don't plate'. [laughter]. Is that their tagline or is that yours? Actually that's their tagline. We were sharing it with the IPC shows, but another nice benefit to the Ormet - which I didn't mention earlier is - there's no electrolysis, no plating processes in these interconnect layers so it circumvents all that. Which is like bizarre for me to think about but... Yeah but if you're capacity constrained, no plating, that's another benefit. Well thanks again this has been really good. If you have anything else juicy to share with the listeners just email it over before we get this one up. Okay. And thanks again for this one. Now I know we've talked about exploring down the road a little bit on copper foil, integrity issues, and also printed electronics. So I'm sure I'll hit you up again soon Chris. Yeah definitely. I would like to talk about some of the material science behind printed electronics and I know you guys are working on some new design tools and print electronics; there are a lot of different ways to use that in electronics... I should back up, but there's a lot of different ways to use conductive inks in electronics there are so many different versions of the inks. Which is another subject I know nothing about so it'll be good. I'll be a student with our listeners and, I know they're out there, I know what conductive inks are, but as far as all the applications, all the different materials available, that just seems like something that's in writing a lot, that people are really turning towards a solution. Lots of new technologies are coming out in that space and it's going to be fun to watch it all. Yeah yeah it will be. Okay Chris, thanks for another good podcast and we'll see you soon. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. Again this has been Judy Warner with the OnTrack Podcast and Chris Hunrath from Insulectro, we'll see you next time - until then - always stay OnTrack.

The rise in flex applications across all industries from medical to automotive, aerospace and military uses means more opportunity for material suppliers to innovate and meet demand. Here what industry expert Chris Hunrath has to share, from general guidelines for designing circuits unique for flex and materials that can be autoclaved over and over. Listen in to this week’s OnTrack expert to learn about flex and material sets.   Show Highlights: Medical applications (i.e. instruments for surgery), automotive, aerospace, military Foils - as you go thicker, its harder to make electrodeposited. More bend cycles out of rolled and yield General Guidelines for designing circuits unique for flex: In general, avoid circuits making turns or bends in bend/flex area - don’t make the circuits go in different directions there and also avoid plated holes in those areas. From a stackup standpoint, balance the construction. Thinner is usually better. Look for opportunities for cracking at the bend point. Cross hatch ground planes have multiple advantages. Pyralux HT, DuPont - new product with unbelievable thermal performance. A continuous operating temperature. Imagine a flex circuit that can be autoclaved over and over. We are a material sciences company. There are really unique ways to put these building blocks together. Links and Resources: Pyralux HT See all the show notes   Hi everyone this is Judy Warner with the Altium OnTrack Podcast. Thanks again for joining us. Today we have another incredible subject matter expert that you'll be familiar with because we've had him here before, which is Chris Hunrath from Insulectro and we're going to talk about flex and material sets and all kinds of really great things. So hang tight for that. Before we get going please, I invite you to connect with me on LinkedIn, I share a lot of things there for designers and engineers and on Twitter I'm @AltiumJudy and Altium is on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn. Today Chris has some Show and Tell and so I encourage you if you - Chris will take time to describe what he's showing, but if you want to see it, feel free to go to our YouTube channel at Altium, click under videos and you'll see all our podcasts there. And you can click on this podcast and then you'll be able to visually see the materials and things that Chris is referring to today - and that's always available by the way - on YouTube so we record simultaneously in video and in audio so just know that's always an opportunity there for you. So Chris, welcome back, thank you. Thanks, Hi. Thanks for joining again. So at the end of last time's podcast, we were talking about the rise in flex applications and sort of the increasing amount of business actually Insulectro's doing around flex materials, new materials are going out so I really wanted to take this opportunity to learn about what is driving this uptick in flex, what applications are driving it  , what the cost, performance implications of that is, and so let's just start with what is driving this uptick in flex? So a lot of it's medical, you know, and the way electronics are finding their way into medical applications. Actually it's everything, it's automotive, it's aerospace military - military has always been a big user of flex, but of course you know, all the new inventions that are used in medical applications - certainly some devices are implantable and that's something that's not new, but then we're seeing a lot of applications where instruments are being created that are used, for surgeries and things and they use flex circuits and that's because you can make things very small which is always an advantage when  it comes those applications and we're even seeing some applications where the products are reused. They're being sterilized, autoclaved, what have you and then they're being reused. But lots of new techniques, lots of new devices being developed using flex. Most people are familiar with traditional flex applications like your laptop screen, very often the interconnect between the main system and the screen is a flex circuit. You know the old flip phones all had flex circuits, your inkjet printers had a dynamic flex circuit between the printhead and the actual motherboard and the printer, and actually that's something I do want to point out is, you know we describe flex applications in two main buckets. One is dynamic flex and the other is the flex to install and it's just exactly what it sounds like is flex to install. Typically you're only bending the circuit once or twice to fit it in whatever it needs to go into and then that's it. Whereas dynamic flex, the part’s flexed in use many, many, many times. I think that something that most people can relate to because you can see it, is the flex inside copy machines right, you can see that dynamic flex moving again and again and so are the materials - the entire circuitry is rated to have X amount of dynamic motions for the life of, it or how does that work? Yeah actually that's a pretty good point and that can become very complex. A lot of it has to do with layer count, the base material. You know the most popular base material for flex circuits in reflow assembled PCB - a little different than printed electronics applications - where you're using conductive adhesive, but if you're doing reflow assembly, the most common material's polyimide film, and one of the most common materials is Kapton, but the thickness of the materials, the type of copper circuitry, the thickness of the copper foil - all those - play into a number of bend cycles even the type of copper, whether you use rolled annealed, which is very common in Flex, versus electron deposited- Okay -well that can get very complex. There are some good design guidelines out there by IPC and others you know. Again I always shout out to the board shops, some of them have good teams that help people   choose the right construction, right stack up to get the most bend cycles out of the device. Are those the two most common types of copper used in flex by the way Chris? Is a rolled anneal an electroless? Oh it's electro- deposited. I'm sorry electro-deposited okay. Yeah - and yes but unless you're dealing with very thin foils rolled annealed is the most common. That's what we call 'RA foils' the most common. Actually I have a sample here. This is some Pyralux clad. You can't see the dielectric inside, but it's got rolled annealed copper on both sides and it can vary from - you used to be limited to half ounce or 18 micron and thicker so a little side note on foils: as you go thicker it's harder to make electro positive foils because it's more plating time on the drum. With rolled annealed it's the opposite, thinner foils are harder to manufacture because you need more rolling processes to make the foil thinner and thinner and thinner. I see. You used to be limited to 18 micron or half ounce, now we can get rolled annealed coppers thinner, down to 9 micron or quarter ounce. You can get a rolled annealed, but the structure is much better for flexing because the grain boundaries are in this direction platelet-type, overlapping grain boundaries which is better for bending. Any foil boundaries are like this and if you bend it you can cleave the grain boundaries in. You get more but it's not that easy - foil doesn't work and flex but you typically get more bend cycles out of rolled annealed. Okay very good. That's something actually I didn't know and it's something I've talked to my friend Tara Dunn, who's in flex - and it's just something that's never come up so I think that's kind of an interesting point. So, you mentioned with military applications - because my background - military was always SWaP right, Size, Weight and Power - so are those the same type of things that drive the other applications - obviously in smaller spaces - we can fold things up on themselves and get them into smaller packaging. When you talk about the dynamic, what other kind of things sort of drive the desire and the fit for flex? So something that's applicable to both military and medical, is you want to reduce the size, so I have here - this is a 50-ohm SMA coax right. It's basically one circuit, you've got the shield layer, the shielding around the center conductor - but this is one channel or one circuit and I have here flex, and you can see how many circuits you have on this piece. So, imagine if you had to have one of these - for each one of these- For each channel right. Now if you - depending on the design, whether it's strip line, micro strip, and whether or not you have   in-plane shielding, it might be every other one's a signal. But still the weight and size is the difference between having cables right, which I'm holding up right now, versus having a flex circuit is huge right. And in the case of medical, some of those traces can be as narrow as 20 micron. So you can fit a lot of circuitry into a very small space. And you know depending on the on the medical device. We see some of our customers will build circuits that are very, very long and very, very narrow, and you can imagine how they're used in surgery and other medical applications. And you might have twenty circuits on that part but it's in a very, very, very small space. Oh that totally makes sense. Now - just to be clear 20 micron circuitry - it’s not easy to do, it's doable, not easy to do, but certainly 50 microns is, most board shops can do that these days and  again you can fit a lot of circuits in a small space and of course they can flex, they can bend. But in the case of rigid flex where you have a rigid part and bridged with a flex part - and here's another example where you have this -  is not necessarily rigid flex but you'd have components here and then a connector here. You're replacing all these cables right, of this section, so that's how it drives weight and space and even reliability. Fewer interconnections tend to be more reliable so that really helps. So flex has been growing quite a bit for us, for our business and so, a lot of its based on DuPont Kapton and DuPont Pyralux products and then they - there's a B-stage system for laminating the different layers and of course the core, or the clad material as the foil on both sides and then our customers will print and etch to whatever pattern they need and put those layers together as building blocks. Right so let's talk a little bit about design for flex since most folks listening here will be engineers or layout folks. What are some things that people need to keep in mind about designing these kind of circuits that's sort of unique to flex? So there's a couple of good - again some good guides out there - both by IPC, DuPont has flex manuals, for different types of categories. Whether it's multi-layer, single sided, double-sided flex, they have some good guidelines on that, but in general what you want to avoid is you don't want circuits to make turns or bends in the bend area. So, for example, I'm going to use this one is an example again. Okay. If this is the flex area in this middle section here, you wouldn't have the circuits go in different directions in that area, so you might want to keep them. You want to keep them basically parallel in that area and you also don't want plated through holes in those areas. Again these are just real general rule - basic guidelines. The other thing you want to avoid is what we call an I-beam effect, where you have circuits directly above each other with a dielectric in between. You want to stagger them. That helps, again - more important for dynamic flex than bended, to install, but it's important not to have the I-beam effect because that could lead to cracks... That makes sense. -concentrates on bending. And in general from a stack up standpoint, you want to try and balance the construction. Thinner is typically better. There's again - there's all kinds of iterations there's - if it's a multi-layer flex - there's loose leaf constructions where you wouldn't necessarily bond the different layers together in the flex or bend region. You'd have them not connected. A bookbinder system is another way to do it where depending on the direction of the bend, the layers that are on the outside of the bend are actually longer. The layers on the inside - and again the fabricators that are skilled in that know how to space that - and to change the length of the circuit. But you know from a simpler standpoint, or from a more general standpoint thinner is typically better balanced. Balanced constructions are typically better   for flex. Well balanced construction is always a good idea, I'm just saying but I could see that right. Because I think you - what you're saying if I'm hearing you right, is you have to look for those opportunities for cracking right, or stressing at the bend radius, because that makes sense right. Just from a physics standpoint it makes sense that things would want to give or pull right? Right, when you bend a flex circuit the other side compresses against it right, and every circuit will fail at some point. It's a matter of how many cycles you get out of it before it fails. Right how do you measure those cycles by the way? Well there are some standardized tests and there's an MIT bend test - there's some other testing that's done to see how a particular material, or even a design or stack up performs where it's bent repeatedly until you get failure. And then you can - you can rate the stack up or the and/or the material. Where can you get that data? You mentioned IPC as a source. Is there any other thing - resources you could share - that I could share with the listeners where they could maybe look at some of these readings? Yeah actually so DuPont's website, the Pyralux website, has some data on that and certainly some of the folks there could put your listeners in touch with some of the design guidelines. Okay alright I know some folks there if you and I can't find him through the website then Jonathan just came in to talk at IPC designers Council Orange County I'll reach out to him see if... Oh Jonathan Weldon, yeah he's a great resource for that. So speaking of Jonathan Weldon, he's been working with HDPUG; they've been looking at shield layers or for reference planes and they've been looking at the difference in solid planes and cross hatch systems, and so this is just a simple - this is actually a simple test circuit microstrip construction where you have a reference plane on one side and your tracer on the other. Imagine if there were a strip line construction and you had copper on both sides with your transmission line in the middle, one of the challenges with all PCBs, and especially with flex, is absorption of moisture and then that moisture released during assembly causing delamination and one of the things that you can do to mitigate that is to bake the parts. Well if you have soft solid copper areas - baking does not work as well - because the moisture has got to go around the copper it can't go through it. Right. So cross hatch ground planes are great for two purposes. One is, it's a moisture egress for baking, the other advantage is it's actually better for flexibility it makes the part more flexible. Hmm, that makes sense. The downside is the high frequency applications - you can run into some issues. Yeah. So and one of the interesting things that Jonathan and company, they were looking at, was the difference between a round opening and a - what's typically used as it's.. Kind of a diamond shape? Exactly, exactly and really it's more of  a square turned on its side, but yeah the diamond shape versus the you know... It's funny how a circuit design is always in orthogonal patterns but that's not necessarily the best way to go and anyway the round shape was better for signal performance. Oh, for the high speed applications? Yeah it makes sense because if you took a circle that fit inside a square you actually have less open area so... This is true okay, alright. Yeah, so there's some interesting data on that but I would recommend to a customer, depending on their   their frequency bandwidth bit rate, depending on what kind of design it is, that they would look at using an open plane. It works basically with a screen, for lack of better words, versus a solid plane because the reliability goes way up. Okay now you just made me think of something. Last time we talked, we were talking about prepregs and glass, being reinforced right. When you're using adhesive systems for flex, I'm assuming they're non-reinforced? Right. It's a more stable material though so tell us a little bit about that, about the stability, the dimensional stability? Yeah so - so really in flex circuits the Kapton film, a polyImide film, because it's a thermoset, it is acting like the fiberglass in your flex circuit. Okay. You don't have skew issues because there's no glass, so you don't have micro-DK effects. Now if you do have a crosshatch plane, you will have a different - you'll have a micro impedance effect if you would. But that usually doesn't change with differential pairs unless - again depending on where you put the traces - but you don't have the fiberglass micro-DK effect at all. Now, Kapton's interesting - it's very thermally stable but it's not as mechanically strong as glass reinforced laminate. So it tends to change more from mechanical distortion than it does for thermal. It's not shrinking like epoxies do when they cure. Certainly when you - when you remove all the copper (and I actually have a piece here) this is a piece of Pyralux AP, with all the copper etched off. This is 100 percent polyimide, used to have copper cladding on it and the copper's been mostly etched off. You can see a little bit of copper left  from the tape I use to run this through an etcher, but the material is pretty strong but it can distort mechanically, more so than thermally. So again this is kind of like the fiberglass in a regular PCB, and then you'd have B-stages of some sort, to put all the layers together. So the actual substrate is creating the stability in the case of flex? Okay that makes sense. It's a polyimide film, in the case of Pyralux, which is a DuPont branded flex material it's based on Kapton film. Okay so we talked about ground planes, we talked about where to not put - - is there any other sort of design for flex things that you'd want to mention that are just rather commonplace? Yeah so there's a lot of things, for example, you could use a pad that's a little bit larger than you would normally use that would go underneath the cover. Now let me backup a little bit and talk about cover lay. So what cover lay is, it's basically Kapton adhesive laminate, that is the flexible equivalent of solder mask. Now unlike solder mask which is used in PCB, which is photoimageable, cover lay has to be mechanically formed and then laminated over the circuitry. So you have openings and this - again this is a another good example - you have openings in the cover lay I don't know if you can see that on this? But there's openings on the cover lay for each individual pad and then that's laminated over. One of the ways to get more reliability out of the pads is to make the pad a little bit bigger than the opening in the cover lay. So you have cover lay over the perimeter of the pad - it's kind of like what we call solder mask defined pad and rigid - except you're doing it in flex, and that's that's one way to get reliability. But there - again there are a lot of different things in flex that you should be aware of, and that's where some of these design guides and things... Okay well we'll try to track some of those down and put those in the show notes because I think that would be really helpful to have something kind of, tangible. Something I remember learning from someone else, is also talking about tear dropping pads? Yes. Is that something that you would recommend as well? Yeah that's good for a couple of different reasons. One is that the more material that goes under the cover lay, again helps mechanically support the pad. It's also important - typically you don't put holes or pads into your bend area, but it could be an area where you could concentrate bending. So in other words, you go from a trace to a pad, that's going to become a concentration of - right at the edge of the pad - concentration of stress and so if you do the teardrop, that distributes that stress over a larger area and helps prevent circuit cracking. But again, you would try and avoid that in your design. We would make that a bend area. And actually, speaking of rigid flex, one of the things that you would typically do is the cover lay would go into the rigid portion only 50 mils. Okay. -Okay and then you would keep the cover lay and its adhesive out of the plate through hole areas in the rigid portion and rigid flex - and that's also a 'keep out' region for plated through hole so you wouldn't want plate through holes going through that region. So again a lot of this stuff is spelled out in some of the manuals that you get from DuPont and others. Alright, I'll reach out to Jonathan and - and you and I can scrounge up some things and we'll make sure to include those here. Last thing I wanted to talk to you about - which I was just stunned by - is that you told me that DuPont has come out with a new material that has unbelievable thermal performance. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah so - classically in flex, you have your your B-stage, or adhesives that are part of the package, and then you have your core materials, which are your building blocks and you print and etch your core, just like rigid, and you would have - you would put them together with either your rigid or your flex adhesives to make a multi-layer system. What's different about this new product, it's called Pyralux HT, and in fact, I got my Pyralux HT mug here... Nice, nice. -but instead of using acrylic or epoxy adhesives to bond the Kapton layers together, you would use this thermoplastic polyimide layer. It's got a very high melting point and thermoplastic's already used in PCB, people familiar with EPI-P and LC, those systems. The only way thermoplastics work in PCB, or reflow assembled PCB, is to have a high melting point otherwise it would melt at assembly. So this is a piece of the thermoplastic polyimide that DuPont manufacturers. It's the HT bonding film. This could either be a cover lay or it could be an adhesive layer to put - to make a multi-layer PCB. Okay. -But the nice thing about this, is it has a - 225 Celsius operating temperature, which is very, very high. What does that convert to in Fahrenheit? Oh gosh - 225 C it's over 400 degrees Fahrenheit. I see, 225 - - Fahrenheit okay I wasn't hearing you correctly, so it was Fahrenheit okay. Oh no - hang on, 225 C, I should know all this without me - - 437 Fahrenheit. Wow. So you know, some applications... -and that's an operating - continuous operating temperature? Which is crazy, cuz some materials can take that heat for a little while but not continuing operating temperature right? Right, so most PCB materials that go through a reflow assembly, which is either done at 260 Celsius, depending on the type of solder work, or 288 C, they can withstand that for a short period of time most PCB materials survive that. It's the operating temperature most epoxy systems will come in around 130 to 150 C operating temperature - maximum operating temperature. That's wild, so I'm guessing - so what are the applications where this will be exciting news? So applications where you had, fiberglass, coax or some other applications like that where you had   wired - high temperature wired connections - or cable connections, you could replace now with a printed circuit board. So engine compartments, aircraft engine compartments, aerospace, down hole, I mean there are a lot of different applications. Even from a medical standpoint. Imagine making a flex circuit that could be auto plated over and over and over again. You don't have to worry what's gonna... I was gonna ask you about that earlier. I don't really know what temps they autoclave at but you mentioned that before that medical applications could - to cut autoclave to kill the bacteria, but like what's the normal temp of an autoclave, how many times can you do that? So we have one customer that builds some parts that are autoclaved at 135 C but it's with steam, and it's hard on circuits, it's hard on electronics. Yeah seems like that would be. But for HT it wouldn't be any issue because you're nowhere near on the melting point. Now it will absorb some moisture, which could be removed from - could be removed with a bake but a lot of applications it won't matter if the assembly is already done. It doesn't really matter. Okay. You know there is some change in the transmission properties of the material when it absorbs some moisture. Again that could be removed with a bake but that is one of the challenges with reusable medical devices, is sterilization and how well the materials hold up, and an HT would be good for that. The downside of HT, is it does require a 600 degree lamination - Fahrenheit. Okay well there you go, so how many board shops have lam presses that go up to that temp? So we took a look at our customer base, and it's not a lot of them, or some of our customers had laminate, or have lamination presses that are capable, they're rated that high, but they haven't been turned up that high for a long, long time. So it's funny, some of our customers have started making some HT, all the weaker heaters, that the press might be 10 years old, they turn it up for the first time to a higher temperature; they start popping heaters and they have to go and replace them. But actually we're seeing a trend though. A lot of our customers are buying laminating equipment and right now that's a whole 'nother story because lean times are way out on equipment in general, but what we're seeing is people are making sure they have that high temperature capability and it's not just for something like HT, it's for LCP and FEP as well. Okay. They have some good properties, electrical and and signal properties. They do. That's a big deal these days. Performance wise they're very good. Right they're harder to fabricate but they do have some good properties you know. Even - we talked about last time - repeat glass-reinforced PTFE materials, some of them require high  lamination temperatures. Yeah they do. Yeah all right. One more material I do want to mention - sorry - so this material actually is a Teflon Kapton laminate it's called... -wait hold on - Teflon Kapton? Oh okay. It's called 'TK' - it's a Pyralux product from DuPont and so it has a core of Kapton to act as the XY stabilizer, but then it has a Teflon material on both sides and again, this is a building block but it's very low loss, and very low DK. So a DK of about two and a half with a very, very low loss. But unlike glass reinforced Teflon systems, this has no fiberglass so, no skew and no detrimental effect from the fiberglass. It's using the Kapton instead, as the stabilizer, because if you had a piece of - I should have brought out a piece of Teflon - but PTFE films you can easily - it can be mechanically stretched. Yeah, one time when I was in the RF and microwave board space, I had the board shop I was working for take all the materials like Rogers, Taconic, whatever and I had them strip all the copper off and I went   like the 4000 series 6000 series 3000 series all the way up to 58, 80 and strip off the copper. Because when you see them clad, they don't look that different from each other. But I'm like here's Teflon - this is like a piece of rubber, and imagine heating that up, exposing that to aqueous hot processes and so I think that really helped people to understand how vastly different they are and I think it was a good visual actually to help people understand how radically different these are and when you start stripping off all the copper and you have fine lines and all that then it's - it's a whole different animal. TK material is - the core material is nice because the Kapton layer does provide mechanical strength. Again though, the TK, instead of requiring 600 degree lamination, it requires 550. So it's still a high temperature product which requires the right press book, the right materials, and lamination, and it also requires a press being capable. And the other too is the board shop needs to get accustomed to the dimensional changes during the lamination process with these materials. Right. Again - a lot of it's mechanically driven, but you need to know how to work with it so that's something I think the boardshop needs to have experience with. Well and I imagine that you're not going to see these materials outside of sort of high performance or high speed capable board shops? That's true... -I don't know if that's true I guess I'm looking to you for an answer in there but it's an assumption I would make. Here's the interesting thing about AP, AP by itself, is actually pretty good electrically. It's the adhesive layers you use that incur a lot of the loss. So then if you get into the thermoplastic systems that have better electrical performance, now you're getting into the temperature range. So it's one of those give-and-take situations, but you can mix and match the materials to some degree. You could use, for instance HT bonding film with AP clads, your operating temperature would default to the AP operating temperature, which is still pretty high at 180 °C, but electrically it's pretty good. You get away from the acrylic and the epoxy adhesives, which aren't great electrically, in terms of loss, dielectric constant so yeah, I think as I think as board shops become better equipped with high temperature systems, you'll see a broader use of these materials. Right, I mean the market is going to drive us there one way or the other right, if there's a demand then the board shops will do what they need to do. One thing - a comment I want to make about that is - I was in one board shop and I was stunned and then just felt like wow I could've had a V8 moment, is they were providing really high speed, high performance circuits to some high-end military stuff, and they had moved completely away from rigid high performance laminates and used multiple layers of flex materials and the performance - and I'm like - oh well that seems like an obvious, but I had no idea that was even happening. Is that something you have seen, where they just use... Yeah, if you wanted to get rid of skew completely you could use a film based system. Yeah it was crazy, I mean that makes sense and I'm sure there's some challenges there cuz I could tell they had to rigidize the bottom, or put some kind of carrier or something, because they didn't want it to flex quite that much but they just stacked these film systems on top of each other and I'm like huh, didn't know you could do that but they were clearly doing it on a routine basis so that was interesting. Yeah I've seen some board designs where you might have 12 cores of Pyralux... Yeah,right. -and then use regular rigid prepreg as a bonding system so and the board's not - when it's all done, it's not flexible it's rigid. It is rigid, but it's a weird - it's weird to see anyway... I actually have a board here. Ok let's see it. Unfortunately it's single sided so it's kind of like a potato chip, but because there's only one layer of copper and one layer of prepreg, but this is actually DuPont's AP product with Isola's tachyon prepreg, and it's a spread glass prepreg. So you have the spread glass prepreg on one side and you've got the Pyralux AP in the other. So you minimize how much glass is in here, which really drops the amount of impact or micro DK effect which would lead to skew and other signal performance issues. So there are lots of different ways you could use the flex materials even in a rigid design. Yeah I did see that and I was shocked and I - it's something I hadn't heard a lot about. Anyways well, we're about out of time today, again. But thank you so much, every time I talk to you, I feel like I learned so, so much and it's fascinating to me where the industry is going and what's happening with flex and it's exciting it's really an enabler right and these high, high temp products and that so it's a really exciting time to see. We always break through one way or another it's just interesting to see who gets it done. So it's very interesting to see what we're doing with flex. Oh thank you Judy for  giving us the opportunity to talk about some of the materials we supply but yeah it's - these are all building blocks and, I kind of view it as a material science company in tech... You are yeah. -we provide all these different building blocks to meet the need of what the customer needs. And there is - and there's really unique ways to put those building blocks together so it's fascinating to learn about. Ok so something I didn't ask you last time, but I'm gonna ask you now. Are you a geek or a nerd? [Laughter] So the best way I heard the two described is the difference between a geek and a nerd is - a geek is the one who gets things done. Oh interesting okay. So I would like to think I'm somebody who'd get stuff done, so that would put me in the geek camp but in any case. Alright check geek, and the second question I have for you: on a scale from one to ten how weird are you? [Laughter] Oh gosh, I would say - five. I'm sorry but if we're in this industry we're at least 5 or above. I think we have to be a little wacky to do what we do - okay well thanks I appreciate it so much and again, we were talking on the phone yesterday we have more to cover, so I'm gonna for sure have you back again and talk about printed electronics which is on the rise and you know a lot about. And also I'm very excited to talk about - oh there it is! Electronics, that's a whole other - whole other world of electronics and yeah. Wait, wait, wait bring that back and tell our listeners what exactly that is. So this was printed with a zebra label printer where the - and no changes to the machine by the way - but the special foil is put into the system where you normally put a roller with a pigment film, so instead of printing a black label you're printing metal foil so yeah, it's kind of interesting. Yes what is that for? Well this is something did for me at our booth this is just an antenna but you could really you could make electronic designs on the fly now... Dude, you're still not answering my question here. What is that intended for? So I'm gonna use that for an antique stereo I have. I have an antique FM stereo the tube, old tube radio, I'm going to use that as an antenna. I see - oh see definitely five-weird. I say I'm gonna make that matrix instead of the hot crazy matrix I'm gonna make like the geeky-weird matrix and so yeah - you're at least at a five -high and a geek. But anyway printed electronics is pretty exciting, I mean and again, it's all material science based. As the materials get better you're gonna be able to do more things. Higher conductivity inks, higher temperature inks, I mean there's all kinds of things you can do in that area. Typically the substrates are different - they're typically lower cost, lower temperature capable substrates, but you could - you can make all kinds of things so we'll get it the next time. Okay we'll definitely do that and the other thing I'm excited to talk to you about - because I know nothing about it - is paste interconnects and you shared a little bit, so anyways we have at least one or two more podcasts ahead of us, so for our listeners; stay tuned and we'll make sure and share everything Chris has talked about today and hook you up with resources through DuPont, HDPUG, IPC, wherever we can find and we'll make sure and share those resources that will help you lay out a better flex and onboard as much information as you can. So Chris, thanks again, we'll see you next time and we'll tackle another hot topic. Again this has been Judy Warner with the OnTrack Podcast. Thanks for tuning in and thank you to Chris Hunrath from Insulectro, we will see you next time. Until then, always stay on track.

In this episode: Rich Schliep, CISO for the Secretary of State of Colorado is our feature guest this week. News from: Slack, Red Canary, Optiv, CyberGRX, Ping Identity, Coalfire and a lot more! Yeah I've got a 6-pack. Somewhere under there Denver is one of the fittest cities, believe it or don't. Also, we're maybe getting Slack's HQ2 (yeah, that's a word now). The cybersecurity 500 has a new number 1! Optiv, CyberGRX, Ping and Coalfire drop knowledge on us. Support us on Patreon! Fun swag available - all proceeds will directly support the Colorado = Security infrastructure. Come join us on the new Colorado = Security Slack channel to meet old and new friends. Sign up for our mailing list on the main site to receive weekly updates - https://www.colorado-security.com/. If you have any questions or comments, or any organizations or events we should highlight, contact Alex and Robb at info@colorado-security.com Local security news: Join the Colorado = Security Slack channel Denver Startup Week - Starting a Security Company - VOTE NOW! Denver remains as one of America's 'fittest cities' A closer look at the Colorado Succeeds survey that quantifies education improvements Slack eyes Denver for Second HQ - 550 jobs Senior developers: Take a look inside the tech stacks of these 7 Colorado tech companies Cybersecurity 500 Optiv Security Cyber-Intelligence Report Reveals State of the Cyber-Threat Landscape Dear Board of Directors, It’s Time to Do the Right Thing and Elevate IAM 6 Security Controls You Need For General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) Ping Identity Issues Best Practices in Recognition of Australia’s National Privacy Awareness Week A Cyber Engineering Primer: Automated Tools for Compliance Auditing Job Openings: Ping Identity - Senior Security Analyst Ping Identity - Site Reliability Engineer - Security Operations AMR - CISO - VP of IT Charles Schwab - Technical Director, Cyber Threat Risk Management Fidelity Investments - IT Audit Director – Enterprise Cloud Computing Denver Health - Security Analyst 3 Western Union - Information Security Manager, Compliance CenturyLink - Sr Information Security Engineer, Firewall NREL - Energy Security and Resilience Analyst Spectrum - Principal Security Engineer I Upcoming Events: This Week and Next: GDPR in Effect: Trimble, a Test Case - 5/22 SecureSet - Career Convos: Kalia Garrido, Skylarq Digital - 5/22 ISSA COS - Women in Security - 5/22 The GDPR and Data Privacy in the US - 5/23 SecureSet - Capture the Flag - 5/24 Other Notable Upcoming Events Women in Technology Conference - 6/8 Colorado Springs - Cyber Security Training & Technology Forum (CSTTF) - 8/22 View our events page for a full list of upcoming events * Thanks to CJ Adams for our intro and exit! If you need any voiceover work, you can contact him here at carrrladams@gmail.com. Check out his other voice work here. * Intro and exit song: "The Language of Blame" by The Agrarians is licensed under CC BY 2.0

On this week's episode of Who Are The Area Men, the Area Men forgot to script again, but will try to entertain with stories of Hollywood racism and naming a kid after a gun. It's Memorial Day weekend and so far, it's Bluth time in America once again. It's all about drinking the tears, enjoying the beers and shrugging off the jeers. Yeah…I've got nothing. Live in 5 - let's do it up!

On this week's episode of Who Are The Area Men, the Area Men forgot to script again, but will try to entertain with stories of Hollywood racism and naming a kid after a gun. It's Memorial Day weekend and so far, it's Bluth time in America once again. It's all about drinking the tears, enjoying the beers and shrugging off the jeers. Yeah…I've got nothing. Live in 5 - let's do it up!

IBIZA AUGUST 2008: SPEEDY BOARDING: GATE 2 “….I've stuck around, through thick and through thin You cannot deny, I've always been in But I've watched you stand, still as a snowman But I don't see you change, you're always at meltdown Yeah I've been your crutch, your smell sight and touch Yeah I took you home when you've drunk too much But I can't survive, with you by my side See I'll never get laid, while I'm running your life No I just don't wanna, so I'm walking away There is nothing that you can do I will not stay No I don't need drama, so I'm walking away Yeah I am a girl with a lot on her plate I'm just a girl that you lost to cocaine….” The second part of my August Ibiza podcast….. Featuring some of the already established anthems (Fedde Le Grande, Sandy W, TV Rock, Funkagenda), the absolutely massive ‘Sunday’s At Heaven’ as well as some favourites from last season (SIA, Eurythmics, Masi + Mello) that just refuse to go away… Also includes a new version of ‘Bodyswerve’ - recorded with my production partner and good friend, Max Sanna, featuring Therese on vocals – due for release later in the year… No fillers – pure Ibiza madness – enjoy… Thanks to everyone who has emailed me, left comments or spoken to me in clubs – it’s much appreciated. I hope you like these just as much. Closing Parties – October 3rd – 6th… Book your flights – you know you want to… 1. Fedde Le Grande/Funkerman - 3 Minutes 2. Sandy W - Bleep 3. J Velarde, Luque + Vitti - Sundays at Heaven 4. Sia - Girl You Lost To Cocaine (Sander Van Doorm Remix) 5. TV Rock - Been A Long Time (Laidback Luke Remix) 6. Phunk Investigation - Your Love 7. Picco - Yekke Yekke 8. Axwell/Ron Carroll - Wonderful World 9. Robbie Rivera - Back To Zero (Brian Cross Remix) 10. Funkagenda - What The Fuck?? 11. Pitron + Sanna feat Therese - Bodyswerve (podcast only version) 12. Potbelleez - Don't Hold Back (Carl Craig Remix) 13. Eurythmics - Sweet Dreams (Alex Gomez Remix) 14. RPO - Darkest Symphony Part 2 15. Masi + Mello - Afterworld 16. Tocadisco - Morumbi 17, David Guetta feat Chris Willis - Tomorrow Can Wait (Sharam Edit) 18. Roger Sanchez - Release Yo'Self 2008 19. Simon + Shaker - Soultech http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKR0QPFHO7g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUbz5Xz4UWw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7Zjk9NF7eE