Podcasts about amwriting

I want to take you inside my favorite yoga studio in Santa Barbara. It's called Yoga Soup, and it's a giant, grounding mix of movement, actual nutrient-dense soup in a crockpot, fresh fruit from local trees, and community.My husband Rob and I practice there a few times a week, and one of our favorite instructors—who is also a middle school English teacher—starts every class by reading a poem. She weaves its themes throughout our practice and reads it again at the end.Now, I'll be honest with you: these classes are often equal parts healing and deeply unsettling for me. Why? Because I'm in there without a notebook or phone, frantically trying to memorize brilliant lines so I don't lose them!A few weeks ago, she read a poem by Mary Oliver called “Today” from her 2012 collection A Thousand Mornings. One line hit me like a bolt of lightning:“Today I'm flying low, and I'm not saying a word. / I'm letting all the voodoos of ambition sleep.”I spent the rest of the class scrambling to hold onto that concept because the “voodoos of ambition” are my constant companions. They're the noisy, bossy, pushy engine behind everything I make, write, and build. They drive the desire to “play big.” And if you're listening to this podcast, I bet your voodoos are pretty loud, too.But as I wrestled with Mary Oliver's words, a new thought took root: What would happen if we actually let those voodoos take a day off?In this Write Big session, I'm reflecting on:* The double-edged sword of high ambition and why we need energy to drive big work.* Why scrambling to capture every thought is just another “voodoo” in disguise.* How giving your ambition a rest—letting it sink into child's pose—is actually what allows it to wake up re-energized and full of life.Writing big requires big energy, but it also requires rest. This week, I'm offering you a permission slip to fly low, be quiet as a feather, and let your ambition sleep for a little while.Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters!#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Books Mentioned* A Thousand Mornings by Mary OliverTranscriptHi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a Write Big session, where I'm bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters.Today, I'm talking about ambition, and specifically I'm talking about some thoughts on the poet Mary Oliver and desire And I want to tell you a story about my yoga studio and a particular yoga teacher that I adore. So my yoga studio in Santa Barbara, California, is called Yoga Soup, and what its name implies is that there's all different kinds of things that happen in this space.There's all different kinds of yoga and all different kinds of teachers. It's a giant mix of different kinds of ways of doing yoga, and [00:01:00] there's also actual soup. In the front room of the studio, there are couches and a coffee table and benches, and there's a Crockpot of soup. It's made by a local soup kitchen that makes just killer local nutrient-dense soup.And oftentimes there's bread from the local bakery, and you can put $5 or $10 in the tip jar and sit down and have a bowl of warm soup, even on a warm day, which we often have here in Santa Barbara. There also tends to be bowls of things from the farmers market or from people's trees. So there might be oranges or carrots or strawberries or something there that you can have.And one of my practices is I love to come out of yoga class and sit down and have a carrot. It always makes me feel rooted in a very specific and physical way and grounded. So that's the vibe of my yoga studio. And I practice yoga with my husband. It's a thing that we do together, that we love to do together, and we try to do two or [00:02:00] three times a week.Rob actually goes to yoga more than I do, and he is really good at it, and he's really strong. And I know we're not supposed to compare, but I do. But regardless, I love going with him and practicing alongside of him. And one of our favorite teachers is also a middle school English teacher. And at the start of every one of her yoga classes, she reads a poem, and then she weaves the lessons of that poem throughout the yoga practice.So while you're doing a pose or transitioning from one pose to another, or in your resting pose, she'll talk about words or phrases or ideas from the poem, and then she usually reads it again at the end. And I, of course, love this so much because words and poems and weaving them all into movement, it just feels so healing and powerful, and I just adore it.And I'm not alone. Her classes are always packed with all different kinds of people, and you have to get there early, and you have to bring your patience [00:03:00] because there's so many people clamoring for this specific kind of experience. But oftentimes this class is also really hard for me because the teacher will say something in the middle that I wanna remember, and I'm in there without paper and I'm without my phone, and I feel sort of quite naked ‘cause I'm like, “I gotta write this down.I gotta remember what she said,” because I'm not trusting that she'll remember what she said if I went up to her after class and said, “What was it that you said about that thing?” And I'm not sure that I will remember correctly. And so I kind of spend the whole class in this panic about remembering whatever it was that she said.I certainly am not gonna not try to remember. That's just not in my DNA. So I often have somewhat unsettling experiences in this class as well. And a few weeks ago, the instructor shared a Mary Oliver poem, and I happen to know that Mary Oliver is one of her favorite poets. She often [00:04:00] reads things from her.And I've read a lot of Mary Oliver, and I recognize a lot of the poems. But on this one day, this poem that she read, I had never heard of, and I couldn't believe I'd never heard of it because it just blew my mind. I found out after class, my Googling told me that this poem is from the book A Thousand Mornings, which was published in 2012, and the poem is called Today Today I'm flying low, and I'm not saying a word.I'm letting all the voodoos of ambition sleep. The world goes on as it must, the bees in the garden rumbling a little, the fish leaping, the gnats getting eaten, and so forth. But I'm taking the day off, quiet as a feather. I hardly move, though really I'm traveling a terrific distance. Stillness, one of the doors into the temple.So there I am in yoga, scrambling to remember the line, letting all the voodoosof ambition sleep. Because that [00:05:00] line, that concept, I was just like, “What? The voodoos?” I mean, trying to remember the line of a poem while doing yoga is one of those voodoos. The voodoos of ambition are all up in my brain, and they're all over my body and my gut.They just are my constant companion. And the second I heard that line, I was like, “Ugh, yes, I love the voodoos of ambition.” They're what drive me and propel me and keep me coming up with ideas and things I wanna write and make and do. They are what is the engine of writing big and playing big. And there's so much that I wanna make and write and do in the world.And I feel like the voodoos of ambition get it. They're dancing, and they're cheering and propelling me on. But of course, I also find them hard to deal with because you know, the voodoos are so noisy. They're so bossy. They're so pushy and voodooy. And as soon as I heard that [00:06:00] poem, and as soon as I got home and studied it and looked at it again, I thought, “Gosh, what would it be like to not say a word and let the voodoos of ambition sleep?”I don't know, and I don't know if I want to know. Flying low is not my natural way of being in the world. And when I thought about it, though, I thought, “You know, I bet those voodoos get tired.” And I imagine that they would love some time off, and that that would be for them like time to do yoga and lay down in child's pose and just feel the support of the earth.And when I imagined that, I imagined that that sleep would make those voodoos feel full of energy and alive when they got up to do their work again. And so I thought, “Okay, I'm gonna practice this, that tomorrow maybe I'll just take a day off and try to be quiet as a feather.” And my reflection for you this week is to remember that writing [00:07:00] big, playing big, trying to do big things in the world absolutely requires some big energy and some up energy, and it requires some voodoos of ambition for sure.But there's also a place in this work of letting those voodoos have a little rest and letting them re-energize and letting them come back to life when they're ready. I thought it was a good thing for us all just to remember. Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcomeToday's guest is Brad Listi, author of Be Brief and Tell Them Everything, host of the long-running Otherppl podcast, and founder of the new literary learning platform Deep Dive. After decades in the business, Brad has a delightfully candid perspective on what it takes to build a writing career these days—and why talent and hard work are only part of the equation.In this episode, Brad takes us through his publishing journey, from his MFA and selling his debut novel in his twenties to launching the influential literary community The Nervous Breakdown, building an audience through podcasting, and writing his latest book, Be Brief and Tell Them Everything. We get into rejection, the myth that platform automatically translates into book sales, and the financial realities of being a writer.Plus, Brad shares what 1,000 author interviews have taught him, why reading should be part of the job, and his unfiltered advice for writers trying to get published.Subscribe to Brad's Substack and listen to the Otherppl podcast. Follow him on Instagram @otherppl.podcast, and buy your copy of Be Brief and Tell Them Everything on Bookshop.org, Amazon, or wherever books are sold!Get your copy of Courtney's debut memoir Girl Gone Wild from ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Amazon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.Courtney is teaching some upcoming classes you might be interested in:How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminarStart a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminarLand Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminarHow to Make 2027 Your Best Writing Year Yet: Manifest Your Writing Goals Seminar: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-make-2027-your-best-writing-year-yet-manifest-your-writing-goals-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocakSo You Want to Start a Podcast?: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-podcast-workshop-courtney-kocakEdit & Elevate: Revision Intensive: https://writingworkshops.com/products/edit-elevate-revision-intensive-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocak

The WCCS at the Brooklyn Book Festival: Writing Through the Chaos with Queer Indie.Tackling toxic perfectionism, trauma, and the neurodivergent imagination with a stellar panel of authors. Plus, a healthy dose of live-stream chaos.Welcome back to The Writing Community Chat Show. I'm your host, CJ, and in this special episode, Chris Hooley and I are incredibly proud to present an official 2026 Bookend Event as part of the Brooklyn Book Festival.For our third year running with the festival, we teamed up with the fantastic folks at Queer Indie, a brilliant community whose golden rule is simply “don't be a dick.” to bring you a panel that is as raw as it is necessary.We're digging deep into the realities of the creative journey alongside a truly stellar lineup of authors and content creators straight from the Queer Indie directory: Anya Pavelle, Halo Scot, Anna Bloom, Ross Young, and Mario Dell'Olio.In this episode, we unpack:Toxic Perfectionism: How to recognise when the drive to edit is actually just fear in disguise, and why you need to let your manuscript go.The Neurodivergent Edge: Harnessing hyperfocus for massive word counts, and how to navigate the dreaded “kryptonite crash” that follows.Writing in Survival Mode: Why getting just a single sentence down is a massive win when life is heavy, and how writing through trauma can be both exhausting and deeply healing.Alternative Productivity: Ditching the standard writing rules for chaotic drafting methods that actually work, including the cruel but effective trick of stopping mid-sentence.You can also expect our usual brand of live-stream chaos, including a heated debate on magnets, an impromptu adult show-and-tell featuring a T-Rex bottle opener, and Ross fighting a losing battle against gravity with his wall art.Support our guests and find their work:Anya Pavelle: anyapavelle.com - Currently working on a brilliant historical magical realism and contemporary crime fusion.Ross Young: rossyoung.ink - Author of four books about the afterlife and proud owner of 800,000 words of unfinished novel beginnings.Mario dell'Olio: mariodellolio.com - Author of Letters from Italy, currently drafting a 19th-century Italian historical fiction.Halo Scot: haloscot.com - Master of dark, cinematic writing and our wonderful Queer Indie liaison.Anna Bloom: Sharing insights on translation, the emotional power of James Baldwin, and surviving the writer's life.Learn more about Queer Indie and their inclusive community at queerindie.com.Bookend events are a vital part of the Brooklyn Book Festival's mission to present programming that is hip, smart, diverse, and inclusive for NYC and beyond. Visit brooklynbookfestival.org for more info.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-writing-community-chat-show--5445493/support.Connect With The Community

Have you ever looked at a project you've poured years of your life into and realized… it's fine? Not catastrophic. Not terrible. Just fine.No one wants to read a book that's fine — and I am certain you don't want to write one.The first step in making sure you do better than fine is to catch yourself when you know you've hit a wall — which is way easier said than done.We get so used to plowing ahead, getting the words down, prioritizing FINISHING that we often forget to stop and make sure we are writing what we really want to be writing. Think of that pause like checking in with your gut or your heart: do you love this?Because if you don't love it, your readers aren't going to love it, either.In this Write Big episode, KJ and I sit down for an honest, behind-the-scenes look at what happens when you hit a wall—and decide to set off a stick of dynamite instead of trying to climb over it. Both of us recently threw out huge portions of our current projects (my Write Big book, and KJ's novel) to start fresh from page zero.I share the story of my 12-hour wrestling match with ChatGPT over the books subtitle (yeah — 12 hours on the subtitle), the “tough love” reality check I got from #amwriting recurring guest therapist Dr. Diana Hill, and how answering one simple question—are you actually centering your reader?—changed everything about my book's tone, structure, and voice. Meanwhile, KJ opens up about why she threw out her protagonist, embraced a dual-timeline structure, and ignored the well-meaning advice of friends who told her NOT to keep starting over.We talk about:* How to recognize when a book is polite or timid instead of alive.* The difference between an echo chamber (which AI can sometimes be) and a true truth-teller.* A method for salvaging the gold from an abandoned draft without getting bogged down by old words.* Why starting over isn't “falling behind”—it's standing up for your conviction.If you're feeling stuck, lost, or secretely suspecting your current draft needs a radical pivot, we encourage you stop playing it safe and build something alive.Let's get back to work and finish work we LOVE.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Books Mentioned* Austin Kleon's Steal Like an Artist* John Wooden's books on coaching basketball* Serena Bowen's novel: Big Stick Energy* Virginia A. Evans's The CorrespondentTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a Write Big episode, where I bring you short conversations, this one might not be so short, about the mindset shifts that shape the work, and today I'm talking to KJ.Jennie: Hi, KJ.KJ: I'm so excited to be here. This is... Uh, you know. I'll be here lots. This is great. Uh, the, the behind-the-scenes stuff- Is the behind the scenes stuff? KJJennie: often-KJ: And here we are just to like, you know, having a nice normal, um, a podcast, soJennie: yeah. I know. I'm so excited to talk to you and to share this conversation with our listeners, and we're talking aboutJennie: So we're talking about the mindset shifts that shape the work. That's what Write Big is all about, and [00:01:00] oof, some big ones just happened for us both. Yep. Um, if you've been listening for a while, you know we're both working on projects. They're very different projects. Um, KJ's is a novel, mine is a nonfiction book, and I just m- literally dropped a bomb on mine and totally blew it up and started in a new direction, and this is years into it, and you recently did that too, and you- I didKJ: something very similarJennie: you were shy about sharing it with me, which I thought was funny. Um- Oh. ‘Cause you were like- Yeah ... “She's not in the book anymore.” I was asking her aboutKJ: something. That's right. You're like, “Oh, and this could be s- “ I, I mentioned something, and I was like, “Oh, yeah.” Yeah,Jennie: I just mentioned changes. That was when we were in person.Jennie: We, KJ and I were in person, and you know what? We didn't take a picture.KJ: Oh my God, we didn't. You're right. Oh, well.Jennie: We both tra- We have aKJ: lot of things. Travel It just means we have to do it again [00:02:00] soon.Jennie: We both traveled great distances in order to have lunch and go shopping and talk about books, and we were walking and chatting about KJ's book, and, and that's when I learned she had blown everything up.Jennie: So how areKJ: you- We both blew things up. So I got questions. I'm sure you have questions. I have. My first question- Yeah ... you just did this, so how did you know you had to do this?Jennie: Yeah, I did it yesterday.KJ: I think that's ... I know. I think that's the thing that people wanna know, like, “How did you, how did you know?”KJ: Okay. “Was it gradual? Was it sudden?” Just-Jennie: Yeah ...KJ: you know, j- tell, tell us how we should know if we should do the same thing, which I already did, and I have an answer to this too, so.Jennie: Yeah, yeah.KJ: How didJennie: you know? So I was ... I had a finished manuscript, and I asked two people to read it for very particular reasons, these beta reas- readers, and they, neither of them were people that I would callJennie: They're not the kinda typical people that I would go to. [00:03:00] They were, they were more, um, regular readers, if that makes sense. They're, they're not insidery people like you. I mean, you and I- Me ... have a lot of insidery, inside the industry people. These were not those people. So I had a full manuscript. I took it out to both of them.Jennie: I got feedback from both of them, and the, the first, the first person's feedback was- Fine? It was, it was fine. It was like, “This is fine. I want more of this or that.” And it was, it was kind of like, not-KJ: Fine, huh? Great ...Jennie: not what anybody wants. Fine. I either want my reader to be like, “Oh, hell yes,” or, “I co- totally don't get it.”Jennie: Like, I want, I don't want fine. So that was the first thing, and then the second reader [00:04:00] said, “I ha- I got some tough love for you.” And this was happened after I was really struggling. I was trying to rewrite while they were doing the beta read, and, you know, f- with my own critique and my own next steps and my own thing, and I found myself unable to go forward because of the title.Jennie: I kept changing my mind on the title. Like, what really is this? And what, it's particularly the subtitle. What, what am I doing? Like, after all this time, after all this time, after a million blueprints, a million conversations, a whole manuscript, I'm still asking myself, “What is the point? Who is this for?Jennie: What am I doing?” And I, when I say that I was wrestling with that, I felt that I couldn't revise until I got it right because I, the revision now is very [00:05:00] specific. It's not let's just get some words down.KJ: Mm-hmm.Jennie: And so I think I spent, I mean, I'm not even exaggerating- 12 hours? I'm not kidding. Playing- No,KJ: I, I believe-Jennie: Playing with my title.Jennie: And-KJ: And you kept sending me things, and I'd be like, “Eh.”Jennie: Yeah, you were like, “Meh.” I was playing in Chat GPT- I was super helpful ... and the reason that I spent so much time was it was really fun. It was, it was like, “Well, what about this? Well, what about the other? I don't like that word.” Like I was fighting with the machine, which I sort of enjoyed, and, and it was, it wasJennie: It says, you know, it says ridiculous things all the time. “This is your most original idea.” I'm like, “Blah.” You know? Yeah. Just I was kind of wanting to- Yeah, you,KJ: you, you can't listen to it. No. You can only listen to what it's making you say.Jennie: I was wrestling with my own mind. Yeah. That's what I was doing.Jennie: Mm-hmm. And, and I would land on something, and I would think this, and I would start [00:06:00] to revise, and I'd think, “Yeah,” and then I'd send it to you. And you'd be, yeah, you'd be like, “I don't like it,” or, “I don't get it,” or, “Meh,” or, “No,” or whatever. And I was getting mad, not at you, but at my own self. Like, what is the matter here?Jennie: And if you've listened to the podcast, you heard some big revelation episodes with Andrew Perella, who's working on his novel, where you have to step back from the wrestling to say, “Why am I wrestling so much with this? There's something else going on here,” right? Mm-hmm. So that was kind of what was happening, and then the second beta reader- Uh, who is, has been on the podcast several times as well and, and will be in the future.Jennie: It's therapist Diana. So therapist Diana often comes on to help us with some psychological things around writing. And- AndKJ: she has a book.Jennie: She does. She has actually three. So she was the one [00:07:00] who said, “I got some tough love for you.” And she said, “Why don't you come over, and we'll sit down, and I'll, I'll tell it to you.”Jennie: And so part of me was doing that thing that you do is, where it was like, “Oh, crap, I still have so much work to do, and, and I'm tired of this, and I don't wanna.” And, you know, so I went into it with that sort of whiny, resistant attitude. And for, like, the first hour when she was talking to me, I had that really defensive thing of like, “You don't get me.Jennie: You don't get, you don't get what I'm doing. You don't, you're not, you're not in my world.” Like, I was really resistant. And then she did the coolest thing because she's a, a therapist and a writer and all the things. She used my own system on me, and she was like, [00:08:00] “Okay, step one is why are you doing this?” And she said, “I want...Jennie: I'm gonna ask you,” I think she said, “15 times, ‘Why are you doing this?'” And we, we were walking, and so she was just go saying, “Why are you doing this?” And I was just spouting out all the things. And I got to about, I don't know, eight, nine, and she goes, “Okay.” None of these are about the reader. These are all about you and what you want.Jennie: And, and none of these are about what you're actually making. Is this book... Are you trying to help your readers with what you're trying to do with this book? Like, are they in the same place you are? And I s- I had this really strong reaction, and I said, “No. What I'm struggling with around this book is, is a different problem from, from my r- my [00:09:00] reader.Jennie: I want to meet them here.” And I, and I said where I want to meet them, and what I want, how I wanted to help them, and why it was so hard to deliver that. And she was taking notes on her phone while we were walking, and then, uh, she read them back to me, and, and it was like, oh yeah, that's the book I want to write.Jennie: That, that's the book I want to write. Like, I, I knew it, I just wasn't doing it. And it was, um, a whole different structure, a whole different attitude, a whole different voice and tone. And, and it really required a page zero start. So I... This was what was really cool. I, um, did not use ChatGPT. I wrote a new subtitle.Jennie: I guess I did use it, ‘cause I was wrestling with one word. I guess I did use it for this one [00:10:00] word. Um-KJ: It's, it can be a really great thesaurus.Jennie: Yeah, yeah. And, and I sent it to you, and you said, I'm gonna keep this text for the rest of my life. You said, “I've already pre-ordered it.”KJ: Yeah.Jennie: I mean- YouKJ: got itJennie: It actually-KJ: I mean, you know, you might change a word or something, but, but no, that one was like, oh, oh, yeah, yeah.KJ: Okay.Jennie: Yeah. It made me wanna cry. Aw. And then I re- I wrote a new intro, totally new from scratch, which is where I had been stuck before, just like even what is this? And I, I wrote it in, like, 15 minutes, and I sent it to Diana, therapist Diana, and, um, she said, her text reply was, “F*****g awesome.”KJ: Yay.Jennie: And I was like, okay, okay.Jennie: [00:11:00] Like, two people I trust.KJ: She didn't say, “Fine.”Jennie: Right? Two people I trust had that reaction, and when I... I wish I could find the text. Maybe I can find the text. Because when I sent it to her, this was what was so great. I do wanna find this. I'm scrolling through my texts now while we're talking, because I said, um- New intro, just three pages.Jennie: Will you read? This is it, period. I hardly even need to ask you because I know it's it. Like, I, it wasn't looking for confirmation or validation. I kind of just wanted her to see. But I, I felt it was it. I knew it was it. And then I started... I can't stop writing now. Like, I'd been so stuck, and I can't stop writing.Jennie: I'm so fired up. I'm so excited. It feels alive and amazing. Um, it feels like butter on toast. Like, it's just [00:12:00] smooth and easy, and I get it, and I, I, I've clicked in, and it, and it... This has come after, like, I tried to sell this book. You know? I mean, I went through that whole process and, and it didn't. And now I'm so delighted that it didn't sell, that I'm not writing that other book, that, that I get to write- YesJennie: this book. And it's, like, such a pain in the butt really because, you know, I wanted it to be done, and I wanted it to be over- ... and I wanted to be close. And I thought I was there. Um, I had all these plans, you know, for launching and making it happen and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, oh gosh, now I'm like six months or a year behind.Jennie: I'm using air quotes. Like, behind what? I don't know. I mean, if I'm perfectly honest, there, there's a colleague who has a book coming out in 2027 that I'm [00:13:00] twitchy about, and I sort of wanted to beat it. And- ... it was never gonna happen. And also, like, what is that even? What is that even? So I, yeah, I feel amazing.KJ: This is great.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. I, I feel amazing.KJ: That's, that's fantastic. Yeah.Jennie: I, I just love it. I'm so grateful for, um, you know, the people that I have who are truth tellers, which is, you're one of them. And youKJ: know- It is hard to find a truth teller. And I pick up so many books now, some of them by, you know, very well-known authors, and I'm like, there, there was no truth teller- RightKJ: for this person. And- I mean, I, I, yeah. You know, sometimes it's just like, “Well, this could've been better,” but the- I've had a couple where I was like, “Wow, damn.” Like, I would've, I would... [00:14:00] Even though I don't know you very well, if you'd given this to me in time, I would've stopped you, but-Jennie: Well, I think sometimes the more famous people get, the, the less often- I think soJennie: people will tell them the truth, and- Mm-hmm ... you have to seek that o- out your own self. And, y- you know, I'm so lucky that I have s- have, I mean, so lucky. You know, you, you're not gonna let me get away with crap, and I don't wanna put crap out there. Like, what I had was fine. ItKJ: wasn't crap. It was fine. ItJennie: was fine.KJ: Mm-hmm. But- And some of it was great, was, like, inspirational, really. Helped me, and had lot... But you couldn't, you just couldn't nail that the subtitle was the point.Jennie: Yep. It's so true. Yeah,KJ: and you just couldn't, you just kept sending me, like, “Ugh.”Jennie: I know.KJ: You know? Like, like, “Oh, this is a book about...” You know, I was like, eh, just like, you know-Jennie: This is a writing bookKJ: boring thing, boring thing, colon, [00:15:00] boring thing. And it was- I know ... or, you know, like, like, “Meh thing, unexciting, dash-” “... probably okay.” I don't know. It's, it's-Jennie: I know, and it, you know, this is in fact the whole write big process. I am going through the very thing I am teaching people to do. And- Mm-hmm When I, what I really understood finally is the reasonJennie: So one of the things, um, when Diana asked me, when she stopped me from saying all the reasons why I wanted to write this book and, and said none of these are about the reader, she understands about me that my whole career is about the reader. I, I train book coaches. I'm a book coach. I- it's what I do. And, and so she was e- then asked me to really define.Jennie: She was like, “When you're coaching someone and it's magic and it [00:16:00] just works and it's awesome, what are you doing?” And, and it was like, I'm not pulling any punches. I'm not, you know, a- and I, and I described to her an incident that just happened, and I can't say very much about it. But a very, very well-known performer was sent to me by an agent, somebody we would all know, with a book proposal that needed help.Jennie: And, and I read the proposal, and the word that was just like a neon sign flashing in my mind was timid. It just felt timid.KJ: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.Jennie: And everybody does this. Everybody shrinks to a certain extent from the thing that they know they can write, and it was like, wow, s- super famous performer who is connected to all the famous people, don't write a timid book.Jennie: Like, we don't, we don't want you to write a timid book. No. You don't want to write a timid book. And in what I do, so I, I got on the Zoom with them, and I said, [00:17:00] “This is timid. This is a timid book. You're shrinking from your authority.” And, you know, they were obviously taken aback. Um, but also then they ... It landed.Jennie: Like- Yes ... I, I see that. And that's what I do when I'm coaching someone. So, so why is that not in the book? Yeah. So the book has gotten much more confrontational, much more tough love, much, much less equivocating. It just feels- MuchKJ: less how to not do something.Jennie: Ugh. Like. It's so much more me, and I- YeahJennie: sometimes pretend like I'm a, a polite and kind and whatever, patient person. But the people that know me, you know, know I'm not actually like that, so. Anyway.KJ: And that would not be a helpful, I mean, that's not a helpful book coach.Jennie: That's right.KJ: You know, people may need that, but- For some people, give somebodyKJ: I don't, yeah. I mean, yeah. Some, sometimes. But by and large, if you give somebody [00:18:00] something and they're like, “This is great”-Jennie: Yeah.KJ: I, I mean, and maybe it's great. Yeah. It's probably not.Jennie: Yeah.KJ: You know, 99% of the time it's almost, or it's not even close, or it's ...Jennie: Yeah.KJ: Yeah.Jennie: So I've pulled off of my shelf some different books for inspiration than the ones I was using before.Jennie: Um, Austin Kleon has a really cool thing in his new book. Why can't I remember the title of his new book? It's quite hard to remember.KJ: I don't know. What does he want you to steal now?Jennie: I mean, steal, Steal Like an Artist is so memorable, and I can't remember the new, the new one. It's a good book, but he has this really cool image where he says, “Books are made of books,” and, and he has the cover of his new book with these inputs and the cover of, like, I don't know, maybe six or eight books that went into his [00:19:00] book.Jennie: You know, like the, that went through his mind to create his book, and it's really beautiful. LikeKJ: real books?Jennie: Yes.KJ: Like his cover is like if you put, I don't know, I'm look- reading titles from the back of you- you- you're behind ... Deep Work and Dare to Lead and Made to Stick, and, and you like- Yep ... fed them into a brain- YepKJ: and then it spat out your book?Jennie: Yep.KJ: Wow. Huh.Jennie: It's reallyKJ: cool. That's a, that's an interesting ...Jennie: Yeah, it'sKJ: bold.Jennie: That's really- It is bold, and it, but I do think it's, I do think it's real. And, and I had some books that were sort of ... What's weird is I wasn't reading them or studying them. I was almost like I would almost just touch them.Jennie: Like, these are the books I want my book to sit next to, to be like. And I've changed out the books that are, are that. I've pulled ... Like, I have this book that I love that is, um, by John Wooden, the basketball coach, about coaching basketball, and you know, it's about [00:20:00] coaching, and, and I've always loved that book, and I've loved how he was revered as a coach.Jennie: And you know, that, that book is now one that's informing me more. It would never be a comp title. This is a very different concept than a comp title, right? But, um, yeah, I just feel, I feel great. And, um- And folks who have been listening have heard me share some things where I've not been feeling great, and I've been feeling lost and confused, and, you know, shouldn't I know better?Jennie: I'm the coach of the coaches, and shouldn't I know better? This is my 13th book, and shouldn't I know better? And it's like, no, you always have to do the work. You just do.KJ: Well, and that's what I hope, you know, people who've been listening along to us for the years we've spent on these projects now take is, I mean, there are people who write great books really quickly.KJ: Typically, they are also people who are able to, uh, you [00:21:00] know, process and keep pots on the stove. And, you know, like Serena writes three to four books a year, and that's, uh, you know, a really hard person to have next to you at all times- Yeah, no kidding ... as I pretty much do. But I also can see that she's got pots boiling at all the time.KJ: She doesn't, you know, wake up on March 1st and say, “Okay, I wanna have a book by July 31st. What should it be about?” And, and that's not how it works for her. And, and so even though she is absolutely faster at producing quality work than, than I am, it's still, it's not that. You know, it's more like, “Okay, here's this thing that I set up before, and here's this thing that I spent, you know, a week plotting, and here's...KJ: And I'm gonna pull this, this toge- together,” and, you know, she gets stuck, but she, and she also, you know, she's full time all the time- Eh, not [00:22:00] doing, you know, that's what she does. That and promoting them. And incidentally, she had a book come out today. Uh-oh, you've gone silent for me.Jennie: Sorry, I was raving and saying she did.Jennie: Um, it was, it's called Big Stick Energy.KJ: Yeah.Jennie: And when this podcast airs, it will not have just come out today. It'll be-KJ: No, but, you know, as we talk ...Jennie: a few weeks ago. But yeah, yay Serena. Okay. Yeah. So do you have more questions for me?KJ: It was more that I just wanted to express that I, uh, felt similarly, but minus all the other people.KJ: Mm. It was a very, like I was really stewing in like, “I just can't- You know, I wanted to have, um, a, a, something that I was thinking about the whole time as I write. You know, I really wanted to know the, what the theme was and what the point was, and I just wanted to know why. Why was I doing this? And every day I would like sort of wake up [00:23:00] and, and stew more on that, and like put some more things in that.KJ: And it was like a, a 40-page Google Doc of, you know, me ranting and trying to get there. And then, then I was, I was putting words on the page, and I had 35,000 words, but I would sit down and I found the protagonist boring. She just ... The other people around her were more interesting.Jennie: That'sKJ: not aJennie: good- And- That's not a good- NoJennie: feeling.KJ: No, it was bad. And I just kept sort of poking at this, and, and it was always so ... I'd say it's, it's, um, I would call it, I would call it domestic suspense except that it, it's more of an outdoorsy book, so, you know, I don't know, campground suspense. I don't know. But, um, it's, it's not exactly a thriller.KJ: It's definitely a, a suspense novel. And it all came down to like, well, why did this [00:24:00] happen, and why and why and why? And I realized that all of it was in the past. The more interesting story was in the past, and the more interesting people were the ones who had had that past experience, and were still here in this book.KJ: And it didn't mean that, that I didn't need a second generation of people, but they needed to have been, um, honestly fed by the trauma of the thing that happened in the past, and it ... So I, at some point, I was looking for the text while we were talking, but I can't find it. I texted, um, Serena and Jess, and I was like, “Ugh, I think I gottaKJ: The, I gotta, I gotta have a second, I gotta have a dual timeline. I gotta ...” A- and Serena was like, “Stop doing this. You keep stop, you keep blowing this bo- book up. You know, just write what you're writing. Just write.” And I was like, “No, no, no, no. I really, I, I do. I do.” And, “Why?” She said, “Why?” I said, “Because that's where the interesting stuff is.”KJ: And she said, “Okay, fine.”Outro: Okay, but you said- And then she made me explain itKJ: whenOutro: we had a, a walk,KJ: but,Jennie: um- You said it didn't involve people, but that's people. [00:25:00]KJ: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But the people were saying, “No, no.” And, and she's right to do that. I'm very prone- Oh, I see. They were not- I'm a little prone to blowing, blowing things upJennie: they were not egging you on. They were saying-KJ: No. Yeah. Uh, it was, it was, you know, “Can, can you stop rethinking this book and, and write this book?” And yes, yes I can, but it needed the, the rethinking. It's, this is, it's, it's much more interesting. And, you know, it was at a point where things would kinda like, I'd come up with something and be like, “Oh, yeah, that locks into this, and this locks into this, and this locks into this,” but- The method of telling it wasn't working.KJ: It's not really a different story. The method of telling it wasn't, wasn't, wasn't working. But it really is kind of like it bugs you, and it bugs you, and it bugs you, and it bugs you, and it bugs you, and finally you just give in to it.Jennie: Well, yeah. I mean, it's a really interesting question of how do you know when you're hiding from something, or avoiding something, [00:26:00] or telling yourself a story about your story, and how do you know when you need to make a move?Jennie: I, I feel like it's very, very hard to do that in isolation. You know, even with your situation where your people were saying, “No, KJ,” that's a mirror that somebody's holding up to you where you get to decide how you feel about them saying no. Like, the point- Right ... really honest, good feedback is not that you take it all the time, it's that does this resonate with something in you or not?Jennie: And with me it was like, oh, yeah, my fine manuscript, and then, and then this tough love. I'm like, “Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it needs to change.” And you hearing that, you're like, “No. No. This...” Like, it, it was all, it all goes back to your conviction, but it's- It,KJ: it's just like the way you were using ChatGPT. ChatGPT wrote nothing, said [00:27:00] nothing, con- added nothing because he is...KJ: He. I don't, uh... You know, it is not an anything. It is a echo. It is- Yeah ... a reflection. It is an echo and a reflection of all of our work combined into, you know, a, a, a stolen creation. But e- and therefore, as far as I'm concerned, we have a right to use it however we want. But- It's not capable of producing anything original, but it is capable of reflectingJennie: That's rightKJ: And that's what you were using it for, and I think that's reallyJennie: It's really helpful when you're strategizing- Mm-hmmJennie: and sorting out your thoughts, and this is what I think I wanna do, and this is why I wanna do it, and this is why that word isn't right for that. And for me, that was just the-KJ: And the peril of it kind of is that it refuses to stopJennie: So that's what's so interesting you say that, because I... When I... So I said 12 hours.Jennie: I spent a whole lot of time on airplanes the last month, and this [00:28:00] is kind of what I would do on an airplane, is I was on airplanes that now have super fast, like that satellite hotspot- Mm-hmm ... WiFi. It's super fast. And so it was kind of fun to get to do this stuff on an airplane. And you know, I can... I love to work on airplanes, but I can't do deep work.Jennie: So I would sort of tap into this, and I was just playing, playing, playing, playing, pushing, pushing. And I did have the thought at one point: There is no friend that I have on the planet or anybody that I could pay that would stick with this as long as I'm doing it. And-KJ: That is true ...Jennie: and that was in, on some, some ways I was like thank goodness that this thing will stick with my brain, saying, “No.Jennie: No, not that word. Let's find 47 other words to think about rightKJ: now.” But you're the one saying, “No, no, no.”Jennie: Yes. Yes.KJ: Yeah.Jennie: And no humanKJ: would do that. But I do find that a peril of it, like, [00:29:00] like I was trying to use it to, to find a, a stand-up paddleboard today. This is a fine use to... And, and you know, it kept... It just keeps saying, “Well, if you'll tell me this, I could do this.KJ: And if you'll tell me this, I could...” Like, it never... It doesn't want... You know, it's not a thing, so it wants to keep you there like all things of its sort. So it's a, it's a little bit of, um It, it's, it's just something to be aware of. Like, it's, it is keeping ... Its job is to keep you in that conversation.Jennie: Yeah.Jennie: And itKJ: wa- But it is not a conversation because it is not a, it is not something that you can converse with. But so, so to use it for as far as you can get, and then as you did, to go, “Uh, and now, you know, uh, my thoughts have, have churned enough to have, have, have ... And, and you have to sort of, uh, you know, leave it going, “But wait, if you'll sugg- you know, tell, [00:30:00] I, tellKJ: Right. It- “I can still think of 452 more words for, for,” you know.Jennie: And it, and yeah. No. It's relentlessly helpful- It's relentless ... in suggesting things.KJ: Yeah,Jennie: yeah. And it's ... So on the one hand, that was lovely, and on the other hand it was like, “Just stop.” Like, the writer's job is to have an opinion or a point of view.Jennie: And-KJ: It could have any point of view ...Jennie: it will never have a point of view- No. Yeah ... or opinion that is based on anything. And so, like, your reaction to your, your longtime people who know you and know your writing, know your process, and know your goals, and know all that, y- you know, that reflection allowed you to tap back into your point of view, which is, “No, I have to have two timelines.Jennie: I have to blow this up. I have to do it differently. It's ... My protagonist is boring.”KJ: Yeah. Don't worry, future readers of this book. She's gone. [00:31:00]Jennie: But new protagonist is not boring.KJ: New protagonist is not one bit boring. It was funny ‘cause there were just some things that I, that had come from the point of view of non-protagonist characters that I was just like, “This is so much better thanKJ: Like, this is the, this is ... Like, I wanna be with this person. I don't wanna be with this person I'm ... This person just threw themselves into this,” whereas, you know, the person I was imagining and creating and, uh- Anyway, it- it's okay. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine.Jennie: Um, I mean, I know you've had that thing I've had, which is I'm gonna have a draft by X, and you've had that- YeahJennie: for many, many months.KJ: The number of times I've said I'm gonna have a draft by on- Yeah ... this particular manuscript are- Really embarrassing. They're not embarrassing, it's just, you know, it, it, [00:32:00] it just, it just is. I'm trying to do something different, and doing something different takes time, and you are trying to do something big-Jennie: YeahKJ: and something that has a big shadow and a big resonance, and you can't ... You're not gonna ... That's not gonna be that way in the first or the second or the fourth or the fifth draft.Jennie: Well, you said to me ... I, I've always had a vision of this book I'm writing as, as being small. I have a couple of-KJ: Small physically, like thin.Jennie: Both. Small in length and small in trim size. Uh, uh, spare, I guess, is maybe- Yeah ... a word I, I would think of. And there's several books I have that do that, that I admire, and it's a thing I want. And you've been always saying to me, “It's really hard to write a book like that.” It's n- you don't just ... [00:33:00] Just ‘cause it's little and short doesn't mean it's easyKJ: It's hard to write short.Jennie: Yeah. And, and you've been warning me about that, and I think I really encountered that buzzsaw here. Uh, I'm like, “Ugh.” Um, so.KJ: Well, you're just trying to channel ... I think you're also trying to channel a part of yourself that mostly comes out in reaction to others.Jennie: Mm, yeah.KJ: And that's hard, because you don't have anything to react against.KJ: Yeah. You're reacting against an imaginary version. You're reacting against everyone that you've ever had to go, “That's timid.”Jennie: Yep. “KJ: That's, you know, that's not what you meant to do.” Okay, great, but I didn't ... Like, uh, this is, is, is fine writing, but why? Where does it fit? Right. What is this? What the hell are you doing?KJ: What- Right ... you know? And you're trying to write for all of those people, but as an abstraction.Jennie: That's super astute. That's super astute. And I,KJ: I'm gonna- Maybe, [00:34:00] maybe, maybe you, you address this book to, to the, this, um, unknown celebrity.Outro: Well, I actually did write thatKJ: story. Dear Taylor Swift, this is how you-Outro: Oh, gosh.Outro: Can youKJ: imagine? Don't write a ... Don't- Uh ... don't write a, a, you know- Uh ...Jennie: aKJ: timid book. And I know it wasn't Taylor. Well, I don't actually know that it wasn't Taylor. No. But it wasn't Taylor Swift, guys. It wasn't TaylorJennie: Swift. Oh, my gosh. Um, the ... Yeah, that is a really helpful thing for me to think about, actually, because I need to keep specific people in mind at specific points, and that's gonna help me.Jennie: And that's the reason why I love book coaching, is I love the back-and-forthing. Interactive nature that isKJ: very- Well, and you said to me the last time we talked about my book, I wrote it down, hold on, ‘cause it's very, [00:35:00] “What can I say that's not being said? What can I say that's offensive? How can I make people mad?”KJ: Here, do that. I'm shaking the page at Jennie. Jennie, what can you say that's not being said about writing? Why, how can you offend people? How can you hurt their feelings and make them go away and go, “That's worse. I'm not either doing that. You're soKJ: mean”?Jennie: Well, the reason I said that is because we were talking about what books ... I mean, so far listeners, Kate is obviously at a level many of us will never get to, and in her career. She is at a very high level with- SheKJ: does not feel that way.Jennie: I know. But, you know, with really big goals and, uh, big possibilities in front of her.Jennie: And so the, when we talk about it, it's like, “What will make people pick this book for their book club?” And, and that's a question anybody could ask, and should [00:36:00] ask, if that's what their goal is, to write such a book. And, you know, that's why I was saying write something offensive, because you want some book clubs to be like, “That is a book we will not touch,” because- YepJennie: that that means there are other book clubs that are gonna be like, “This is our next book, no question.” Yeah. You know?KJ: Yeah. Like, if you- And we say it all the time, you write for everyone, you write for no one, but also it's just hard to-Jennie: Well, and I haveKJ: been- Hard not to like pull your punches and back up a little and be like, “Uh, I can't mention that.KJ: I can't, I can't-” Or, “IJennie: can't be that person.” And you, as a human, I mean, I am so fortunate to be your friend, because you as a human will often say things that other people will, will maybe not say, or, you know, are maybe not super popular. And I go to you to hear those things, you know? And, and you, you say them with conviction, and I love [00:37:00] that about you.Jennie: And that should be in your book, you know?KJ: Well, I'm trying. I think it's closer. Amazing. I think it's a lot closer.Jennie: Well, if folks are getting tired of hearing us talk about this, the endless struggle and challenge and up and down and whatever, you're probably not in the right business. Because-KJ: Yeah ...Jennie: this is- IKJ: would hope this would be reassuringJennie: this is how it goes.KJ: I always wanna hear. That is part of the problem with the, the standard podcast model of talk to author whose book has just come out, because that is an author whose book has just come out. They have just, they've, they've done all this, and, and I'm not... I mean, by all means, you know, listen to podcasts about authors and then go buy their books.KJ: Um, but you know, as a writer, you just hear that and you're like, “Oh, look, they're finished. Look, that,” you know, they, they, they... And they, they'll say, “Well, there was this really low moment where, you know, the, my book pre- before [00:38:00] this got turned down,” or whatever. But they're, they're past that and, and you're just like, “Well, yeah, but that was probably really short.KJ: That was probably a blip. You probably didn't feel that the way I would've felt it.” And I,Jennie: yeah, so- Right? You hear Virginia A. Evans say she was rejected and rejected and rejected, and she finally just said, “Screw it, I'm gonna write this weird story in my head,” that turned out to be The Correspondent, you know?Jennie: And, and she tells that in three minutes on a podcast,KJ: and- Right ... I- And you're like, “Well, that, that, that was short. That can't have been very painful.”Jennie: Right? And look at what it got her, and she's fine now. But- Mm-hmm ... yeah, I'm mostly interested in talking to people when they're making the decisions that lead to whatever, whatever they're gonna make, ‘cause it's the process, man.Jennie: You gotta like the process. Yeah. Even on the days when it sucks and- Ooh ... oof, there are days when it does. They really-KJ: There, there are, [00:39:00] there are indeed Yeah. Well, but this is pretty g- like we're, we're back. We're back, kids. We're, we're- We're, we're back ... we're writing. We're, we're, we're here. We're doing it.KJ: We did. Yeah. We blew some stuff up, but now we'reKJ: building it back. Hopefully a year from now you won't be listening to the exact same podcast. We'll be like, “Here's what we said a year ago. Here's how we're blowing up our books today.” At some point everyone should be like, “You know they're never gonna finish these books.” When is that point?Outro: 2029.KJ: If we're still doing this in 2029Jennie: and talking about the same books, you can, you can all just turn off. No, I'm on fire now. I'm on fire. I am too,KJ: I swear.Jennie: Yeah, yeah.KJ: This is it.Jennie: And there's a thing that I'm doing that we could talk briefly about, ‘cause I know you're doing too, which is when you blow something up, there are parts of what you made that you can keep.Jennie: And what's part of the fun is discerning that. Yeah. And for me, I'm [00:40:00] going through the manuscript and, and saving a story here, a page there. I would say like one out of 10 maybe. One-KJ: That is not how I do it.Jennie: Mm.KJ: I start a new thing and then I will go back. Whenever I run into something that I know is in the other thing, I pull it in.Jennie: Mm. Yeah, I've beenKJ: mining- It's kind of my rule. I'm allowed, allowed to be in the other thing.Jennie: Interesting. Interesting. It'sKJ: only I have to take it ... And sometimes I don't even drop it right into the Scrivener. I'll like put it somewhere else- Yes ... and then play with it somewhere else-Outro: Interesting ...KJ: so thatKJ: Yeah, ‘cause I, I, I don't wanna Sometimes, and sometimes I will realize that revising something that I already did, even though it's good, to make it fit is actually harder than just rewriting it.Jennie: Yeah. I just really like the physical act. I, I do this physical thing. I go in and [00:41:00] I literally strike out what I'm not gonna use.Jennie: Mm. And it, it feels really satisfying. Just like, “Nope, nope, nope, nope”- Yeah ... nope. And then I'll encounter a thing I am gonna use, and I'll highlight it gray. That means it was used. And-KJ: Nice ...Jennie: it just ... I like the physicality of there are parts of this that are useful, and there's a lot of this that is not, and, and I'm making that decision.Jennie: It's gone from-KJ: Right ...Jennie: well, it's not really, it's struck out, but- Yeah ... that physical, um- Yeah.KJ: That was, that was what ... I forget the phrase that Serena used, but when I said I was doing this and I was gonna start it, and she said, “Okay, save past draft.” Like, she said something very clear. It was just, like, three words that were just like, you know, like, “Okay, but don't, don't throw it away.”KJ: That's so funny.Jennie: Which I,KJ: I wasn't going to, but yeah.Jennie: Do you feel 100% committed to the forward path now? [00:42:00]KJ: I feel 100% committed to the forward path. Thanks. This is so much more alive.Jennie: Yay. Same. That's what we're looking for, alive. Alive.KJ: Yes.Jennie: Yeah, I love it. All right. Well, um, so fun to chat with you, KJ, and we will continue the conversation.Jennie: Um, also you have some stuff up your sleeve that, um, folks will get to listen to coming up. And for everyone tuning in, so glad you could join me to talk to KJ. Now let's get back to work and finish what matters most.Outro: The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were [00:43:00] paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Paid subscribers can join us in the chat to respond to this invitation! #AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.If you haven't caught episode 523 yet to hear me and Dr. Diana Hill talk about juggling all the things, you can catch up below. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

On the #amwriting podcast's Margin Notes, host Jennie Nash talks with Dr. Diana Hill, author of Wise Effort, about how writers handle mishaps and self-talk when juggling book-related obligations. Hill describes accidentally booking two plane tickets to a Washington, DC conference, prompting a discussion about shifting the story from “I'm disorganized” to one of abundance and opportunity. Hill introduces Buddhism's “wise speech” filters—helpful, kind, timely, and true—and distinguishes guilt (which motivates clean-up and repair) from shame (which labels the self as bad and can paralyze writers). They share examples of painful feedback and feelings of insignificance, discuss the “worldly winds” (fame/insignificance, pleasure/pain, blame/disrepute, gain/loss), and conclude that choosing to “pay the price” of a busy, opportunity-seizing life can be healthier than spiraling into blame or defensiveness.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is Margin Notes, the place in the podcast where we talk about the big decisions writers face in their work or creative lives.Jennie: And I'm here again with Dr. Diana Hill, author of Wise Effort, and we're gonna talk about a really interesting reality that you and I have both noticed, Diana, which is that when you're out there in the world with your book as a writer and you're juggling all the things, you're ... You have interviews, you're putting, you know, inquiries out, you're showing up for conferences or workshops or events or things, and sometimes things don't always go the way that you planned.Jennie: So today you have a little experience [00:01:00] with that, which is why we're even talking today.Diana: Well, it's, it's more like things don't go the way that I plan. It's more like I had no idea about my own plans because I'm juggling so much. Bec- I, I'm on my way to this pretty, uh, big conference in Washington, DC, and I'm going to present on a book that I wrote, uh, called I Know I Should Exercise, But: 44 Reasons Why We Don't Move and How to Get Over Them.Diana: And I'm going to present to a bunch of researchers and therapists about this sort of model of what gets in the way of us exercising. And I open up my American Airlines app and realize I have booked myself a ticket today and a ticket tomorrow. I bought two plane tickets to this conference without any awareness that I had already bought one.Diana: And so I had to decide, am I gonna go tomorrow or gonna go today? And, uh, I canceled and said, “Hey, I'd rather...” And I called you, I texted you right away, “Hey, I have an open af- afternoon. Do you wanna meet up, Jennie?” But this is the case, right? [00:02:00] W- when you have so much on your plate because you're, you are moving pieces around to make things happen, little bits of sand drop through the cracks.Diana: I think, yes, that's, that is a problem. But what's the bigger problem is how we treat ourselves after that or during that, or the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and our capabilities. I think I said, “I'm so disorganized,” and you said, “Oh, I'm so disorganized.” And then we said, “Wait a minute, maybe we need to change our script.”Diana: Right? Which is hilarious because that's what your entire book is about, is telling yourself a different story, not believing the first story that y- comes into your head, which is, oh, well, what happened was you told me that you did this and I laughed and I said, “Oh, I, I do things like that all the time. I c- I think of myself as a terribly disorganized person.”Diana: And that's when we both stopped and said, “Well, wait a minute. What would the other story here be?” So that's what- Yeah ... we thought we would talk about. Yeah. I often [00:03:00] think of the Lucille Ball episode when the chocolates are coming down the conveyor belt, and they start speeding up, and she's stuffing them in her bra, and she's stuffing it in her face, and they're, and they're flying off.Diana: And then you realize, well, wait a minute here, there's an abundance of chocolate coming your way. Like, this is, this may be a good thing, you know? Like, you have a conference that you're going to, or you have all these different opportunities that you're juggling. And we could start there with, uh, shifting to that type of a story, which is a story of there's so much ‘cause it's an experience of abundance.Diana: It's an experience of opportunities, of possibilities, which already shifts our mind into a different place. And you could notice that even in your body when you shift from, “I'm a disorganized mess,” to, “Oh, I have so many opportunities and possibilities right now.” Well, and what's interesting in your case is that you, it, it wasn't like you didn't have a plane ticket.Diana: You had two plane tickets. So in some ways there's a story of [00:04:00] you're quite organized. You were gonna get yourself to this conference no matter what. Or a story of I didn't trust myself, that I bought the plane ticket. So I had, I had to do it twice. But yes, I mean, the, the nature of the human mind is that it's a story-making machine, and actually everything that we experience comes through the, our, our mental filters, and we get to be the chooser of which stories are most helpful.Diana: In Buddhism, there's something called wise speech, and wise speech has these four qualities to it. The first quality is, is it helpful? The next one is, is it kind? The next one, which I think is a very useful one, is, is it timely? Like, is it a good time for m- for me to tell myself this story? Sometimes you might wanna tell yourself the story that you're disorganized and you need to go get organized.Diana: You need to, you know, clean stuff up, do a little , spring cleaning. But telling yourself that when you're in the middle of a ton of other things and now you have to deal with your low mood and feeling bad about yourself isn't helpful. And then the fourth [00:05:00] quality of wise speech is, is it true? Sometimes we do need to question, is it true?Diana: Is it not true? But most of the time, if we're getting all wrapped up with the, is it true? Is it not true? Am I disorganized or not? We're just doing black and white thinking, and it's m- usually more a little bit of both. That type of questioning our thoughts or questioning our stories and asking ourselves what would be the most helpful, what would be the most kind, what would be the most timely, and maybe what would be the most true, is a better angle to take with it, I think.Diana: I love that. I love that so much. I know another thing that happens when writers are juggling all the things is sometimes we, we drop one of the balls and w- we disappoint someone. So let's say in a different iteration of this that you actually were supposed to fly yesterday, and so you missed the conference.Diana: You know, that, that happens when you have a whole bunch of things going on, or you wrote the time wrong down for the podcast interview, or you missed [00:06:00] some critical deadline, and now you have on top of that like, “Oh, I, I let these people down. I said I was gonna show up, and I'm not.” Or, you know, what, what do we do when the disorganization leads to those kinds of thoughts?Diana: Mm-hmm. Well, if, if there is something you need to clean up, sometimes we do need to clean up. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of getting radically honest with ourself, and there's, there's t- two layers to that. Guilt is a, actually an emotion that we evolved as humans for a good reason, to clean stuff up. I made a mistake, I feel a little guilty, I go apologize.Diana: Um, I've, I had a, I gave, I did a white lie about something, I got caught, so I admit it. You know, whatever it is. That happened this morning. My son took my AirPod and he, he wouldn't fess up. And finally he fessed up. I'm like, “See, doesn't it feel better just to be honest?” Like, it's just be honest about it.Diana: But there's a, there's a distinction between guilt, [00:07:00] which motivates us to just, just to clean stuff up, and shame. Shame is I am bad. There's something wrong with me. I'm a bad person because I scheduled two flights or because I, you know, had, said a white lie to my mom for taking her AirPod. Shame is pretty detrimental, and it's the type of emotion that makes us climb back into a hole and not put ourselves out there.Diana: And as writers, we need to be putting ourselves out there a lot. We need to be making lots of mistakes. Maybe every once in a while feeling a little bit guilty for something that we need a course correction on, but we course correct and we move on, as opposed to shame of I am bad, and then we're paralyzed, frozen, and we go nowhere.Diana: Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, you're making me think of something that happened to me one time when I was out there promoting a book, and I had been invited to do the keynote speech at a big conference. And- There was a process in place where [00:08:00] my presentation was vetted. Like, I had to submit it and, um, and it was vetted and, and we were really clear on what I was talking about and what I was doing there vis-a-vis what some other of the speakers were doing.Diana: So there was this nice work on the whole presentation, and I felt really confident about what I was doing. And I, I did the, um, presentation and, and it was sort of s- short and, um, I thought it was awesome. And then I got feedback from the conference presenters that I had completely misunderstood my role, that I should have spoken three times longer than I had, that I had delivered something sort of thin and not what they were expecting and what they had hired me for.Diana: I, I just remember I... Actually, what I did was I gave the money back that they had paid me. [00:09:00] I felt so bad. I felt so shameful that I, that I said, “I, I can't take the money if, if it didn't go well. You know, I'm giving it back.” I was so freaked out about it. But as... This is years and years ago. As the years have gone by, I've thought about it a lot, and I've thought, it wasn't actually my fault.Diana: Like, I did i- all the steps that I did to make sure I was doing what I thought I was doing, and somehow I told the story that it was my... I did something bad. So- Yeah. Yeah ... that's kinda, that's what's coming up for me when you said that. Isn't that amazing? I think that that can be, um, our experience in so many different ways where we can fall into feeling bad, we can, um, we have experiences of feeling insignificant.Diana: I mean, especially when you're putting yourself out there, and we take one little thread of feedback, and it can destroy us, especially where that feedback is coming from. Because you're getting that feedback from the presenter, you know, whatever committee. The person who hired me, yeah. Who hired you.Diana: Imagine if w- if we went around and [00:10:00] we passed a microphone to the people in the audience. You would have been gotten a l- very different, you know, perspectives. And the, the question becomes, like, who, who am I doing this for? And, um, there was in- unclear communication. The last time I was at a big, uh, conference, uh, just a few months ago- I gave what I thought...Diana: It was on, on the book Wise Effort, and I gave what I thought was, like, the best talk I'd ever given, ever, on this. I was, I was flying high. I got great feedback. I thought it was, I thought it was pretty amazing. And it was- You're like, “I'm so good at this.” Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, “I, I finally nailed it.” Yeah. Like, so many times.Diana: I finally said it the way I wanna say it. And, and when I give these talks, I- there- I- a la Jennie Nash, I bring in a giant notepad and a Sharpie, and I sometimes I do these little one-on-one exercises with people in the audience demonstrating Wise Effort. Like, draw what it feels like in your body and, and then I hold up the notepad for everyone to see.Diana: And so it was the day after, I'm leaving the conference, and I had the notepad under my arm, and [00:11:00] I'm getting a coffee, and this guy comes up to me looking like a very stately psychologist. He comes up to me, um, in line and he's like, “Oh, did you go to the conference?” And I said, “Yes.” I said, “I...” And he said, “Oh, big notepad.”Diana: I said, “Yeah, actually, I presented yesterday.” And he said, “Oh, yeah, great. What did you present on?” And I said, “Well, I- uh, my name's Anna Hill. I presented on Wise Effort.” And he said- ... “Oh, I think I went to that workshop.”Diana: It sounds like it made a mark. Insignificance. Insignificance. And i- in Buddhism, there's something called the, um, the four worldly winds, which are the, the, the things that push... Or sometimes they say the eight worldly winds, but they're things that push us off our game, right? And they are fame and insignificance.Diana: Ah. When you're on either one of those, right, you're- you got, you got, you got a chance that you're gonna get knocked off. Another one is pleasure and pain. Another one is, um, blame and disrepute. Ooh. Ooh. Which is what you're talking about there, blame. I feel like I was blamed. It knocked me off. [00:12:00] And then the last one is gain and loss.Diana: Hmm. And so as writers, we're constantly, like, facing those winds, right? I get pr- I get, I feel famous, I feel insignificant. Oh, this is so great, so much pleasure. This sucks. This is the most painful thing I've ever been through in my life, right? Oh, I got the book deal. Ooh, it's with this, you know, kinda crappy publisher.Diana: So f- you know, all up and down, up and down, up and down. And the question becomes, I mean, back to the story of juggling all the things. If you're juggling all those things, where are your feet planted? Are you stable? Even, even if you're dropping stuff right and left. And that doesn't really matter if you're dropping stuff, if you feel planted in who you are, what you have to offer, you know?Diana: And yeah, you're gonna ... It's gonna go high and it's gonna go low, and you'll double book. Well, that's what I thought was remarkable about what you did today. You pivoted so fast. I think you texted me, might have been before 8:00 AM. You were just, just like, “I have a whole day.” You know, do, like you just started making meaning of your new [00:13:00] reality, which was you're not on an airplane today.Diana: You're on an airplane tomorrow, and it seemed like it took you no time at all to, like you said, your feet were so planted that you sort of just shook it off and moved on. Is, is that what it felt like? Yeah, it felt like carpe diem. You know? It was one of those, I was mad, I was disappointed, I was ... I, I hate those airline apps, and then I'm calling the airline.Diana: I was in the struggle for a little bit, and then, and then I just dropped it and said, “Okay, then what do I wanna do today?” So already today I, I've been to yoga, I went to I went to Savoy to get my favorite salad, I'm talking to Jennie Nash. I'm like, “This is a great day. I'm so glad I'm not in Washington DC.”Diana: Wait, is your favorite salad the kale blueberry? At Savoy? It's ... No. Yeah I go s- I go to the salad bar because they, I think they're the only salad bar that has like the, the most amazing salmon, like in the salad bar. Like, you can just like, you know, put wild salmon- Pile it on. Okay, okay ... yeah, pile it on. So that's what I do.Diana: Yeah. All right. We're talking about [00:14:00] a little deli in our town. Um- Down in Santa Barbara. You gotta go ... I mean, it does sound like a great day. And then- Yeah ... we're recording a podcast, ‘cause why not? So that, um, that's really instructive. You, you sort of let the struggle be, and, and then you said being solid on your feet and not spiraling into the blame, um, of it.Diana: Yeah. Choosing ... You know, you get to be the chooser of the story that you tell. And, um, and so, you know, choose, choose ones that are kind and ones that are, you know, for the most part true, but also ones that are helpful and timely. Yeah. And then when you do that, you can kind of n- weather stuff a little bit better I think.Diana: And I'm curious what happens if this kind of thing happens to you and other people say, “You're so disorganized. You need to slow down. You need to stop saying yes to so many things.” What do you say about that? ‘Cause that happened to you. Jennie, are you... I was gonna say, are you, are you only asking that because this happens to you?[00:15:00]Diana: Yes. Does this happen to you sometimes, Jennie? It happens to me all the time. What do you do when people ask you that? Oh, dang. You're putting it on me. Um, I usually totally take it in and think, “Oh yeah, there's something wrong with me. I should say, say no more often. I should go slower. I should, uh, should, should, should.”Diana: Mm-hmm. I do. That's what I tend to do. Yeah. And then what are the, the costs and consequences of that for you? I lose faith in my own knowing, my own intuition. I like to be busy, I like to be challenged, I like to have all the balls in the air. Um, and so I lose faith in that, and it doesn't feel good. Uh, then I, I also feel like I have to get defensive, um, why I do that.Diana: And, uh, so then I'll bring that defensiveness into my relationships. So it, it impacts me both inside and it impacts my [00:16:00] relationships. And then I think I second-guess the next time I say yes to something that feels like too much. So there's like- Mm ... a lot of repercussions. Mm-hmm. There's like dominoes falling from, from that.Diana: Mm-hmm. And then if I were to say, that happens to me, you know, what you just described in terms of people are telling me, “Diana, Diana, you're doing too much. You're taking on too much. You're, um, juggling too much. That's why you messed up the plane ticket. You need to be more organized”- Yeah ... what advice would you tell me?Diana: Gosh. Um I don't think that I would've gotten to where we got together. Um, I think, I think I might be a person who would say that, who would say, “Yeah, you're moving too fast. What are you, what are you doing?” Hmm. “Slow down. Take a minute.” I think I- Mm-hmm ... I think I might say that [00:17:00] to you. Mm-hmm. That was in fact the first thought that came through my head when you told me what happened to you.Diana: I was like, “She's doing too much. She's ta- she's got too many irons in the fire.” Mm-hmm. I put that... I did have that blame thought. Mm-hmm. Um- So it's a, it's a really interesting thing, this, you know, sort of the blame, or even if you're s- what you're saying has a, has a kernel of truth to it. When you tell it to somebody, you don't necessarily get back, “Oh, you're right, Jennie.”Diana: What you get back is what, what you just described, which I said, what are the costs and consequences to you? Well, I go into either self-blame, blame, or defensiveness, right? So the question becomes, if, if there's a kernel of truth or maybe there is a shift in, in, you know, I'm juggling too much, that's why I booked two plane tickets, yeah, you know.Diana: Um, or you're juggling too much and your friends are noticing it. There's also another kernel of truth in there, which is there's a reason why you're juggling all those things. Yeah. And, [00:18:00] and, and I would be... I'd actually go for that first. Hmm. So I would go for, in, in asking of you, uh, if I were your friend and I was noticing this, or if a friend were noticing it of you, to ask yourself, why am I juggling so much?Diana: Hmm. What is important to me? Like, what, what... You know, why are you so busy, Jennie? What's important to you? Oh, gosh. Um, I feel like I could answer that very easily. I hate missing opportunities, and the opposite of that is I love seizing opportunities. Things, really good things have come to me from... I'm gonna use the word impulsive, and there's a reason I'm using that word, but impulsive decisions.Diana: A lot of what I've built has, has come from that. I'm really good at that. Um, I think I'm good at juggling a lot of things. Uh, I like the feeling of, [00:19:00] uh, fast decision-making. I think I do better making decisions under pressure than I do when I have a lot of time. Yeah. So there's a lot of reasons why I like having a lot of irons in the fire.Diana: Mm-hmm. It doesn't scare me. It usually energizes me if I were, uh, able to do them all without the blame or the defensiveness. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a quality I actually like about myself. Yeah. I, I, I've, I've gotten a sense of that from you, and there's also a bit of... And I'm willing to have the, I'm okay maybe more than some other people may be okay with having a little bit of that, you know- a, a tousled hair experience of things are kinda moving at me quickly, fast, you know?Diana: And, and there's a little bit of feeling like I'm kinda juggling too much. Like I- Yeah ... I'm willing to tolerate [00:20:00] that feeling because of these other things that you, that you care about. And the, it's the, it's the second arrow. It's the layer on top of the blame and defensiveness that is the problem, not necessarily the layer of, I juggle a lot, it's kind of a mess sometimes, and then it's also exhilarating and I, I, I, it's impulsive and, and I found that that's actually a secret to my success.Diana: Yeah. And there's, um, it's, there's a, there's a thing in psychology where they talk about, um, are you willing to pay the price? And what that means is like, you know, for example in, in a relationship, you're never gonna get everything that you want. Are you willing to- You're not ... you're, are you willing to pay the price of like, you know, he has all of these qualities, but then there's this aspect of him that wouldn't, you know, he has that too.Diana: Am I, am I willing for, because I love all of this, to also have that? Yeah. And if you love the intensity and the, um, uh, um, you know, the, [00:21:00] the level of feeling and impulsivity, then you have to be willing to pay the price of sometimes things being in that tousled hair state. And I'm, and I'm, I'm the same. You know?Diana: I don't, I'm not meticulous with things like plane tickets. Yeah. I don't spend my... Like, my husband, he would spend like, you know, double check, triple check, put in the code for everything kinda guy. Yeah. Make sure we don't have any credits. I'm like, I'm just... I'm just booking my flight ... No, what, what's the harm?Diana: What, what harm was done? Yeah. No one died.Diana: And I can pivot quickly, so it's fine. You know? And, and that's, so I'm willing to pay the price. I love that so much. So that's the story. The story is not, look at Diana, she's so chaotic. Look at Jennie, she's got too many irons in the fire. It's we've chosen to pay that price- Mm-hmm ... for being this way, for working this way, for moving through the world this way.Diana: I love that. Yeah. [00:22:00] Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Well, I feel like that is a great place to end, and you get to continue on with your great day, ‘cause it's still the afternoon, so who knows what will come out of this day for you. Maybe something good. Yeah, surprise. Thanks for joining us, and have a good, uh, conference.Diana: And for our listeners, until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.Diana: The #amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:23:00] work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this Margin Notes episode of the #amwriting podcast, host Jennie Nash talks with book coach and author Stuart Wakefield about approaching marketing as a creative project by making joyful “artifacts” that expand a story world rather than simply asking readers to buy a book. Wakefield shares his creative background, a past period when his creative practice stopped, and how he now immerses himself in projects tied to his latest novel, All Hands on Dick, set in 1956 aboard the cruise ship SS Celestial. Stuart describes the book's comedic, queer, mid-century influences and its characters, explains creating items like a 3D-printed ocean liner and a hand-cut 10-inch vinyl record featuring AI-assisted big band songs, and discusses building an animated music video. Nash also previews upcoming episodes with Wakefield on using the Blueprint method to develop a series, as he launches his trilogy A Gay Odysea.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Connect with Stuart* Visit his book coaching site* Read his books* Watch his music videoTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hi, everyone. This is Margin Notes, the part of the podcast where we're talking about the big decisions writers face in their work or creative lives.I'm here today to talk with Stuart Wakefield about making marketing a creative project. And you've heard from Stuart before. He has coached on the podcast, and we'll link to that episode in the show notes. He also will be in episodes to come, which we'll talk about in a moment, and Stuart is a fascinating individual who's had a long career in all kinds of things, including TV writing, playwriting, a long stint in IT.What? [00:01:00] And, and now Stuart works with me at Author Accelerator, and he runs his own book coaching business at thebookcoach.co. Welcome, Stuart.Stuart: Thank you for having me, Jennie. I'm really excited to talk to you today.Jennie: I'm excited too. This is such a, such a interesting topic. So the reason this came up is that Stuart launched a new book, which he'll tell you about in a moment, which is part of a series, which he'll tell you about in a moment, and I started seeing out on social media just all this really fun content that he was producing.And obviously then I would get to talk to him at work, and I- he just would have so much joy, and then he would say, “Oh, let me show you this other thing.” And when I talk about fun content, I'm talking about, like, music videos, cartoons, animated [00:02:00] little shorts. He wrote a song. He, he's writing a music video. He 3D printed a ship.He printed a vinyl record. I mean, it's bonkers. And so I just wanted to dig into this about what are you doing, and why is it creating so much joy, and what can we learn from it? So that's what we're here to talk about.Stuart: Oh, oh, oh. Right. Okay. So, so in, in my creative practice, I have always enjoyed... You know, I started acting when I was five, um, so I've always been in kind of around the theater, even when my kind of IT career and project management career was all kind of going on.So I've always enjoyed that. I, um, started a, a- A degree in fashion design. Um, after a year at art college, I, you know, carried on acting and then had a break in 2003. Uh, if I'm really honest with you, I had a breakdown and- Yeah ... m- [00:03:00] my creative practice just stopped. And about six years later in 2009, I started writing.And you know, I've always been a creative person, and I've always been a storyteller, and I tend, but I tend to do it in a very short, concise way. So the shortest piece of fiction I've sold was 50 words.Jennie: That's short.Stuart: Right. Okay. So I, um- Have had like a, a side art project. It's called The Queer Historian of Emotional Truths.Um, and there is a website that sits with that, and the idea is that the queer historian has found artifacts, um, and he is curating those and sharing those on the website, and they might be voicemails, they might be found photos, found objects. And when I got my... So I really love that kind of very small to- storytelling, those, those really poignant moments, [00:04:00] as opposed to great big, long stories.Um, I recently s- sold a story to Divine Femins- Feminine Publishing as well, um, which is again, it's cozy sci-fi, but it's very much the small kind of human moments.Jennie: Right.Stuart: And I found that after writing this book, I became so invested in the world that I wanted to do small art projects that kind of lived within that world.So that's where this has come from. I, I don't see it as marketing. I see it as telling those smaller stories within that wider world that really convey the joy that not only have I got from writing that, that work, but I think lives on after the reader closes and reads that last, that last page and then closes the book.Jennie: Well, this is why it's so exciting and inspiring to me, because so often when writers talk about marketing or think about marketing, they're thinking [00:05:00] about, “Buy my book. Buy my book. Buy my book,” and that's not at all where you're coming from. I suspect... Well, with this current project, it's, it's brand new, but I suspect that that's where it's gonna go, right?That it's impossible to imagine sh- that you're gonna share all these creative acts and artifacts and not get people... I was gonna say on board, but that's gonna be like- The, it's a- ItStuart: is set follow... It's set on board a, a ocean liner. Right. So on, on board is great.Jennie: Right? Like the, how could those two things not happen?That, I guess what I'm getting at is I, I often think that the results people want don't usually come from the path that they think is gonna get them there. Right. The results come from doing the work you love, writing the story you want, and in your case, making this a creative project. Do you- Yes ... do you think that's [00:06:00] true?Stuart: Yeah. You know, very much so, and I was discussing this with a marketing book coach, uh, Rebecca Grogan.Jennie: Mm-hmm.Stuart: Highly recommend her to any romance writer. So that's beckythebookcoach.com, and, you know, we got talking about creative projects and how much I don't really like marketing. I always thought it was a very British thing not to like marketing, but the more and more US writers I, I meet and fellow coaches, again, you know, marketing can feel like something unsavory.Jennie: RightStuart: And what I really want to do is show people these cool things I've made and invite them very much into the world. Because what I do in any of my creative writing projects, I have objects that represent what I'm writing on my desk. So, um, I have a book that's set in 1907, so I got [00:07:00] artifacts from, from that time.I have a book that's set, well hopefully coming out in a few months, which is, uh, set in Madrid in 1958, and one of the characters works in a print shop. So I have wooden blocks, wooden printing blocks that spell out this character's names. So-Jennie: Oh,Stuart: that'sJennie: so cool.Stuart: So as I switch from project to project, I bring those things and put those onto my desk, and I just find it helps me get into that head space-Jennie: YeahStuart: and that emotional connection.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: So because I still have a, a very strong emotional connection to what it is that I've just published, and I know there are two more books coming, I really wanted to sit and kind of immerse myself in that world. And the first object I created was this 3D printed ocean liner, because that has what has been sitting on my desk while I've been writing this first book.Jennie: So when you say you 3D printed it, how did you go about [00:08:00] that?Stuart: Okay, so I-Jennie: Oh, and, and let's just describe, since people can't see it. It's, it's about like eight inches, 10 inches? Uh, yeah, yeah. So- And it's... Is it made of plastic?Stuart: Yeah. So it's 3D printed, uh, so it's kind of a, a resinous kind of plastic that's- Yeahjust melted as it comes through the head. And yeah, so I found, uh, a model online, and then I... My comput- my computer modeling is not great. It's one of the few things that I'd see that I don't really, you know, have a skill at. So I contacted a friend and said, you know, “Can you modify this for me? Um, can you change the name on the side of the ship?”‘Cause the model that was already there, um, had a different name. And yeah, you know, we, we worked on the look and the feel, and then when we were ready, we found someone else to, to actually print it up. So for me, it's just a lovely object, and I know I'm going to be able to take it to book fairs. There's one coming up at the end of September- So I have little [00:09:00] wooden life rings, we have ship's rope, I have a reception bell.Um, so all of these artifacts, again, when s- if somebody comes to my stand at the book fair, they will be walking into the world of the SS Celestial.Jennie: That's so fun. Okay, so let's, let's talk about the, this, the ship and what happens on the ship and the story and the whole thing, ‘cause it's just too much fun.So it's, um, set in 1956 on a cruise ship. The name of the book is called All Hands on Dick, and it is currently out. So why don't you tell us about first All Hands on Dick, and then the series that it, um, begins?Stuart: Okay. So All Hands on Dick follows cruise director Dick Dockery, and Dick is one of those people that puts the passengers' needs before his own.So, and he is very good at his job But on the voyage from New York to Bermuda, [00:10:00] a slightly seedy kind of underground guy with a reputation called Van Valentine boards the ship. And Van very quickly identifies that what Dick is doing, that he's fulfilling everybody's needs but his own. So throughout a...It's very much a comedy of manners. So throughout that and some farcical moments and lots of beautiful sub-stories, um, Dick eventually learns that being needed is not the same as being loved.Jennie: Very, very, uh, profound message in a very fun setting. So some of the other characters, tell us about some of these other characters.Stuart: Okay. So we have, uh, newlyweds, uh, Buck and Kitty Devereaux. And Buck seems very nervous in his marriage, so one of the kind of mysteries is what is Buck hiding? And then eventually we start to learn that actually Kitty might be hiding some- something as well. We have [00:11:00] Aurelia Cashmere, who is a sort of a, a grande dame, I guess.She, she's first class. Um, she has come on board with a secret that she's going to reveal something when they get to Bermuda. We have, uh, Tony's sidekick, uh, Bunny Marlowe. We have a steward who seems to know everything called Tony Two Towels. We have a light-fingered magician called Pip Larkin. Um, and- ThisJennie: is just so great.And you s-Stuart: And then lounge singer... Sorry, then we have a l- a lounge singer called Rex Devereaux. Uh, and he has a on-off affair with his piano player, Joey Lamplight.Jennie: Okay. So you shared with me that, um, you loved The Love Boat, the, the TV show, right? Oh,Stuart: it's one of my... It, it's just fantastic. And I, I tell you what happened, I love the movie An Affair to Remember-Jennie: Mm-hmmStuart: with Deborah Kerr and Cary Grant. [00:12:00] And you know, I was... My mom loved kind of ‘40s, ‘50s movies. So she kind of introduced me to those when I was growing up, ‘cause I was born in the early ‘70s. So you know, sh- I was kind of weaned on, on movies by watching those. And I loved watching The Love Boat, and more recently...I say recently, it's a few years old now, but the movie Down with Love, uh, with Renee Zellweger.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: And I watched that and it reminded me of the Doris Day, Rock Hudson kind of sex comedies.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: So the vision for All Hands on Dick and the series that it fits into, um, very much came from those, those influences, and the love of, of the, all of those things.Jennie: Well, and it has that, and has that feel. So we'll talk about the whole series in a minute, but some of the other things that you made artifacts that you made, uh, well, there was a song and then there was a record, [00:13:00] and then there was a music video. So how much time have you spent making all these things?Stuart: I, I, I think, I think that wh- what, what happened was, I, I, I'd finished the book and I w- I was, I, something had happened.I think, I think an old Drifters song came up on my, um, Irene's, uh, list, and I'd been listening to... We have a, a TV, um, advert that's on in the UK that, uh, has the song, um, Beyond the Sea.Jennie: Oh, sure, sure.Stuart: It's Bobby... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I was, “Oh, okay.” So I knew that Rex, the lounge singer, one of his storylines is that there's a song that he can't sing.Jennie: Oh.Stuart: It is too emotional for him, and he's desperately trying to get his career back on track and, but there's this one song that he just cannot sing, but it's one of the most powerful songs that could potentially bring his [00:14:00] career back. And I'd been thinking about songs and, you know, again, my mom was just a very, very funny wom- woman and, you know, we would make songs up together.And I wrote some jokey lyrics, uh, called, for a big band number sung by Bunny, called Everybody Needs Dick. And, and, you know, uh, you, the lyrics are, are, you know, a bit silly here and there, but, uh, I just had fun with it.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: You know? So none of this was planned. Um, now I know some people are gonna be really anti-AI, and I, I totally get that, but this was for my personal consumption.So I put those lyrics into an, a, an AI and said like, “Can you write a big band, you know, backing track to go with this?” Just as an experiment, and what came out just really took me by surprise. So-Jennie: It's amazing. I mean, it sounds like a fully produced Andrews Sister song.Stuart: Yes, yes. Love The [00:15:00] Andrews Sisters.Yeah. And then I got thinking about Rex's song, and I thought, “What kind of avoidant thing would Rex sing?” So I wrote some lyrics for that and, um, again, put it into the same AI, AI, and it came out with a couple of versions, and one of them immediately made me start to cry. Oh, no. And I thought, “Okay, if I have an emotional connection to this song, then I need to do something with these tracks.”So I'd been kind of living in the world of the SS Celestial, which is the, the ship that the story is set on, and got to thinking about kind of souvenirs and, and would the ship sell souvenirs, and what kind of things might they sell? And I thought, “Okay, if I'm gonna have an object that's all my own, then as my kind of reward for finishing the book,” I thought, “wouldn't it be great to have a vinyl record?”So then I get into researching how much music can you get on, you know, a seven-inch, a 10-inch, [00:16:00] 12-inch record. Settled on a 10-inch record because, um, Rex's song is six minutes. It won't sit on the seven-inch. Then I had to do my research. You know, were 10-inch singles available in the US in the 1950s? Turns out they still were.Um, then I got to designing the record covers and the labels. I found a company in, uh, the, in London who handcraft. So rather than press a record, they hand-cut it.Jennie: Oh,Stuart: wow. Um, found a company to do that. And yeah, you know, a week later I had in my hands a, a, a 10-inch record, and that is just for my personal consumption, but, you know, I will share that on,um, you know,uh, social media. I will play parts of the record on social media. And yeah, that's where I kind of got to in there, and I just wanted to share with people like, “Oh, look, I made this cool thing.”Jennie: Yeah, yeah.Stuart: And-Jennie: I mean, it's so cool, and [00:17:00] when... We'll share, hopefully, uh, uh, cover a picture of the, um, m- the, uh, record so, in the show notes so people can see.But when, when you share it and talk about it, again, you're just filled with so much joy, like a kid. Yeah. Like, “Look at this.” Yeah. “Look at what I made.” And that has to feel really good, right?Stuart: It, it really, really does. And, and, you know, my family, immediate and wider, are going through some really difficult times at the moment.We started kind of March last year, and, um, I won a, a, a grant from the Arts Council here in the UK to, to really help me kind of zone in on my playwriting.Jennie: Right.Stuart: And a full-length play that I've written is, it's very dark, and it deals with some very dark kind of, uh, themes and issues. And a friend of mine had said to me, she said, “There's something wrong with you.There's, [00:18:00] there's, like, this little light that has gone out.”Jennie: Oh.Stuart: And she said, “I think you should get back to writing comedy.” Um, when I wrote for TV, that was comedy. Um, my last full-length novel, you know, had lots of comedic stuff going on. Um, and she's like, “Why don't you, you consider going back to comedy?”She'd read a lot of my writing when I was doing my master's degree, and she said, “I, I really think you need that, that kind of lift.” So when I was thinking about what to write, I was like, “Okay, I need to do something that, that just really sits with me.” I'm not... You know, writing a novel is a big commitment, and you need to be around people that you kind of really love.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: And I wanted these people to- So many queer stories I think are written from a place of trauma.Jennie: Mm-hmm.Stuart: And I really wanted a group of people who had relatively low stakes threat, but [00:19:00] could really live and breathe in their environment and find joy. And that's exactly as passengers are disembarking at the end of this, this book, that's, you know, there is hope and there is joyJennie: And I imagine that's what you want your reader to feel.Stuart: Um, uh, a- absolutely. I've absolutely written it for people who, you know, to take on a take on a cruise- Right ... or read on the beach. And, you know, I think it's fair to say that, you know, politically and, um, literally the world is on fire, right?Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: Yeah. You know, we're seeing huge fires all over, you know, we're seeing political, just appalling political stuff.And I, and I just thought I, I need this story and I need these people, and I think other people out there need just some fun and some joy and some lightness.Jennie: So tell me about, um, right before we r- started [00:20:00] recording, you said you were almost finished with the music video. Tell me about that.Stuart: Right. Okay. So, uh, Everybody Needs Dick is a huge, joyous, big band number, and I was creating a little short animation to go on, um, social media, and also I wanted the challenge of learning something new from an IT point of view.Jennie: Mm-hmm.Stuart: And it kind of grew, ‘cause I was putting some music to the, the reel on Inst- on Instagram, and I just thought, “Hmm, this could... Like, I really like the results of what I've been able to animate here. Like, maybe this could be something bigger.” And I used to work for Turner Broadcasting Systems, which is now, like, part of Warner Brothers Discovery.Was there for about three years working mainly on the Cartoon network side, and I did some work with the animators of The Amazing World of Gumball, which is a very [00:21:00] popular show, um, in the US, and I kind of thought, like, maybe there's something in this. Maybe I could put all of the Everybody Needs Dick story into, like, an MGM musical number.Jennie: Right.Stuart: And like, so again, it, it captures the look and the feel and the tone of the joy of the book as well. So I'm 40 seconds away from finishing. It takes about an hour to get 14 kind of decent seconds. And I... But I'm, I'm exhausted, but what's keeping me going is watching it over and over again and feeling emotional, feeling that emotional connection to the relationships that are developing, even just through the video i- itself.Jennie: Right. AndStuart: what- So again, for me, it's just immersive.Jennie: What, um... When you approach Something like that, and you, you know, obviously we're all, uh, learning, if any of us listening use AI for [00:22:00] various things, we're all learning as we go d- because it's so new. How do you approach the technology side of it? Like, in addition to the creative part, you have to figure things out, right?Figure out how to do it.Stuart: Yeah. I mean, you know, I spend a lot of time engineering prompts for all different sorts of things. So for my own writing, um, I have a prompt that runs through my chapters and looks at all of the nasty habits that I have.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: And I was talking to another coach the other day, and I was like, “Let me, let me just do a quick word count.”And that search, that, um, AI prompt, is 9,510 words.Jennie: Wow.Stuart: So I might have spent a long time working on that, that prompt, but it really helps me sit back, look at my chapters, really understand what's working and what's not working, and then from my past mistakes and patterns of writing, it helps me see those and that I've fallen back into to some of those [00:23:00] habits.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: So, you know, I, I like to think I'm relatively good. Um, but again, some of the graphics that I was using on Instagram were... They were by real people.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: And I thought, “Well, that's not really the kind of look I'm after. I'm kind of after that... For the, for the video, I'm after that mid-century American illustrated look that is somewhere between J.C.Leyendecker's illustrations of the sort of ‘20s, and the illustrations that you would expect to see in an American magazine in the mid-'50s.”Outro: Right.Stuart: So I worked and worked and worked, you know, with an AI tool on getting the look right, and then locking that look in. Then I was able to take the images from Instagram and say, “Okay, what would those character models look like if they were in dr- had been drawn in this style?”So again, we worked through those looks, um, you know, how smooth their skin was, what the kind of folds in their clothes should look like. [00:24:00] You know, we did a lot of work on that, and then it was really down to the things that I kind of learned at Warner Brothers and watching the extras on DVDs about storyboarding, um, the animations, and then really teaching myself the best way to use, um, the AI that I was using to get the best kind of effects out of it.And I- So it sound- You know... Hmm.Jennie: It, it sort of sounds like play.Stuart: It is. It really is. And I, you know, I, I love learning. I loved learning to be a book coach. I'm always doing some kind of course, whether it be creative or, you know, to do with writing. And, you know, I like a challenge, and teaching- Yeah ... me this new technology, I mean, I'm 54, and, you know, there's always that risk that the kids are gonna com- going to kind of overtake you.Jennie: Sure. Uh,Stuart: but I'm very curious about the world. You know, I l- I like my K-pop. I'm very excited today ‘cause Hatsize, you know, new EP is out. Um, I've had many a conversation with a 13-year-old who's just shocked that I know anything about K-pop- ... [00:25:00] let alone I'm kind of into different bands. So, you know, I'm interested in, in pop culture and learning new technologies and, you know, it has been a huge, huge challenge for me to do this.But again, it's playing in this world, and I've also noticed as I'm doing these other creative projects, because I'm still mentally in the world, some of the stories for the later books are, are coming to me.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about the series. At what point did you decide that All Hands on Dick was going to be a series?Stuart: Pretty much from the beginning. I-Jennie: Okay ...Stuart: I, I... So the series is called A Gay Odyssey, and that's- AndJennie: it's, I have to spell it. It's- Yeah ... O-D-Y-S-E-A.Stuart: Yes. So it- it's A Gay Odyssey, and I call it, like, a naughty cal adventure. So- So, you know, I, I very much saw this as the ship as a [00:26:00] container.Jennie: Mm-hmm.Stuart: Okay? Quite literally.Right. But also like a story engine.Jennie: Right.Stuart: So I thought this is, this is a world in miniature, and I wanted to have one overarching love story that covers all three books. But like The Love Boat, I wanted that episodic nature to it as well, because I knew I wanted to bring in different characters and different crew.So A Gay Odyssey is, it's a trilogy of mid-century American queer romantic novels that also examine, uh, the life we live as performance as well as the life we live in private.Jennie: Mm-hmm. So that's where the, the lounge singer and the piano player, the literal- Yeah ... performers and the magician, as well as the just regular people who are performing different roles and things.Ab-Stuart: a- absolutely. You know, Buck is, is performing kind of the dutiful husband, and that's clearly not what's going [00:27:00] under, on under the surface. And, you know, Kitty is very much wanting to go out, you know, understand what's w- I want to say in quotes, “wrong with him.”Jennie: Right.Stuart: And yet Kitty starts to believe that actually she might not entirely be the person she thinks she is.So again, it's, some of it's around self-discovery, um, and some of it is just how you move in the world when the world is telling you you shouldn't be who you are. I mean, it's coming off the back of the Lavender Scare- Mm-hmm ... in the US, um, that Eisenhower signed in 1953 where queerJennie: people-Stuart: I'm not familiar withJennie: that.Stuart: Oh, okay. So I think it was Order 105410or s- or, or something. But Eisenhower signed it, signed it in 1953, and it basically meant that nobody, no gay man or lesbian could work in a federal job.Jennie: Oh, I, I was not aware of that.Stuart: So, you know, thousands and thousands of people were put [00:28:00] out of employment in the US. Wow. So it's coming off the back of that Lavender Scare, um, and it was very much treated like they were a security risk.Jennie: Wow. Um, I'm not gonna get really deep into the series because you and I are gonna do a deep dive on, uh, series development. Um, and for our listeners, Stuart is obviously, um, I would say one of the world's foremost experts on my blueprint method. H- how's that for a title?Stuart: That's very kind of you.Jennie: Um, he teaches it, he coaches it, he holds the high bar for certification that we have at Author Accelerator around the blueprint and other things.But one of the things that he has really done is, is to do a very deep dive on understanding how to use the blueprint [00:29:00] to develop a series, and how you think about one book, how you think about the whole series, the, the order of things, the, the way this tool can be used in this way, and his work on this is, uh, blew me away truly.So I've asked Stuart to come back onto the podcast, and we're going to do a series of two, uh, podcasts, where in one we're gonna talk about the overview of how to use the blueprint to develop a series, and it can be any genre, uh, any- Mm-hmm ... fictional genre, and then we're gonna do a second podcast on ... Now I can't remember what it was, but I think it wasOh, the story engine, and you, and you referenced that with, for your series, the, the ship and, and this container and how to develop a story engine. [00:30:00] And this will also all lead to a special offer to work directly with Stuart on a series, so, um, using the blueprint. So all of that, I'm making all these big promises.I hope they all come true.Stuart: They will. They will.Jennie: Um, all of this is just, uh, laying the groundwork for, for folks who are interested in designing, developing, building a series, and, um, doing it with somebody who has this incredible creative and playful mind, and you can get a sense of the way Stuart thinks and, and works and, um, of the things that he makes.Uh, can you tell us, Stuart, w- if people wanna read All Hands on Deck right now, where can they go? If people wanna find you, and how on earth can they see and hear all this cool stuff you've made? Tell us all the things.Stuart: Okay. [00:31:00] So, uh, in terms of, obviously you can find me at thebookcoach.co. On Instagram, I'm Mr.S Wakefield. Um, so that's where you'll be able to see where I share the cool things that I've made. Um, and then in terms of buying, I mean, all good bookstores. I've already had some, some podcast listeners of mine send me pictures of them holding their, uh, books in, you know, American bookstores, which is fantastic to see.Uh, so yeah, you know, everywhere that you can buy a book. It's not just Amazon, boo, hiss. Um, you know, you should be able to get it in all, all, you know, good, good bookstores.Jennie: Excellent. So, uh, say your, say that Instagram again, just so people can hear.Stuart: Uh, it's Mr. S Wakefield.Jennie: Okay, great. Well, um, we have much more to talk about, and we, and we will be talking about, but this was just so fun to hear your process and this, um, this sense of marketing as a [00:32:00] creative project.And it'll be really fun to follow along and check in with you in our next episodes about where all of this stands as well.Stuart: Great. Thank you.Jennie: Thanks for joining us, Stuart.Stuart: Okay. Take care, Jennie. Bye.Jennie: And for our listeners, thanks for listening. Now let's get back to work and finish what matters mostOutro: The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:33:00] work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Paid subscribers can join us in the chat to respond to this invitation! #AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.If you haven't caught episode 522 yet to hear me and Stuart Wakefield talk about his marketing efforts for his latest book, you can catch up below. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Jennie filmed this quick video message for everyone about today's episode! Paid subscribers, come into the chat to respond! (Not a paid subscriber yet? That's okay! You can become one today!)#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Host Jennie Nash talks with novelist and journalist Caroline Madden about why writers crave traditional publishing deals and how that desire can become an unhealthy obsession tied to external validation and “pick me” energy. Madden recounts a 20-year path to publication, including losing two agents and dying on submission, then changing her writing through Lisa Cron's Story Genius, Nash's Blueprint for a Book, and Donald Maass's Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook; her later two novels earned deals, including her debut The Marriage Vendetta (HarperCollins) and a forthcoming book. They discuss how redefining “why,” setting a bigger North Star (for Madden, contributing to feminist issues), releasing desperation, and defining success concretely can stabilize writers through rejection and shifting goalposts. Madden advises seeking blunt, market-informed feedback from industry professionals and emphasizes control through craft and writing rather than chasing validation.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Books Mentioned in this Episode* Story Genius by Lisa Cron* Writing the Breakout Novel by Donald Maass* The Marriage Vendetta by Caroline MaddenBlueprint Courses

In this episode of #amwriting, Jennie introduces this series of “Write Big” episodes in which she vulnerably shares her own process of turning the Write Big concepts into a book, thanking listeners and inviting them to become paid subscribers. In this tough installment, recorded after a Zoom call with her agent while sick, she explains they are ending submission after sending the proposal to 30 publishers; feedback was largely positive, but publishers felt the book would be hard to break out without a large platform, and there was nothing actionable to change. Jennie feels sad about losing the chance for bookstore placement via a traditional deal, but emphasizes she does not feel rejected and believes strongly in the finished manuscript and her marketing plans. She plans to move forward independently, explore formats and special editions, and frames the moment as what “writing big” means: taking ownership, not playing small, and writing like it matters.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Transcript[00:00:00] Hey everyone, it's Jennie, and I'm here to introduce a series of episodes that I'm going to be doing. But before I do that, I just want to thank you for being a listener. I inherited this podcast from KJ, Jess, and Serena back in December, and didn't really know how it was going to work with just me at the helm or what I was going to do to make it valuable to writers.And I've been finding my way, and I've just been so grateful that you're continuing to listen. I appreciate it so much. I have a lot of really cool things planned coming up, so I hope you'll keep listening, and I also hope that if you're getting something from it, that you consider becoming a paid subscriber.That helps support me and the producer and assistants who help me put this together, and we would appreciate your support so much. Okay. So the reason that I wanted to introduce this upcoming series is that it's a series of Write Big episodes that are about me and the project that I'm working on, and it feels a little vulnerable to be sharing in this way.I've had some mentors and advisors [00:01:00] suggest that maybe I shouldn't do this because I'm here on the #amwriting podcast as an authority. I'm the book coach who coaches the book coaches and who has coached a lot of writers, and I come at you from that place of expertise. But in these next episodes, I'm coming at you as a writer my own self, and I'm coming with some pretty raw material.I debated whether or not I should share it at all, but I decided to go ahead. I think it's the honest way to show that I'm here working on the Write Big issues right alongside you because every writer is. These are not just theoretical ideas. They're ideas that we all have to wrestle with. It doesn't matter that I've published 12 books or that I've coached hundreds of writers and thousands of book coaches.What matters is that I want the book I'm writing to be great, and I want it to make an impact, and I want it to be authentically me, and that's what writing big is all about. So the [00:02:00] project that you're going to hear me talk about is trying to turn the Write Big concepts into a Write Big book. And this episode that you're gonna hear first is a pretty tough one.I want you to know that it all turns out just fine. I'm fine, and I'll be sharing the journey of my bringing the Write Big book into the world with all of you as we go with some special opportunities to be inside the process with me and to help me make the book as good as it could be. This will all just be a small part of what I have planned for the #amwriting podcast, but I wanted to give you this context before you listen today, just so you know what this episode is all about and the next few ones that follow.Okay, now let's get to it.This is a Write Big session where I'm bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters. Today, I have a bad cold, as you can hear, but I just got off the Zoom with my agent, and I wanted to [00:03:00] capture this moment for all of you because I think it's really important to capture it.So even though it was a sad call and I feel bad, I wanted to record this right now. And, um, it was sad because we decided that our submission efforts are over and they didn't work. My agent submitted to 30 publishers, and the overall feedback was amazing, as I shared in some earlier episodes. It was just incredible how many people know me, know my work how well the proposal landed with people, how seriously they considered it.My agent did something that I've actually never seen before, which is that she had a spreadsheet, a Google spreadsheet, and she would share the feedback in the spreadsheet as it came in. So I have all of the feedback in this spreadsheet. I'm looking [00:04:00] at it right now. And so what my agent and I decided is that there was really nothing that we could do.There was nothing that we could control. Nobody was saying, “Go out and get a whole bunch of new followers and come back to us.” Nobody was saying anything about a different content or concept. There was just a general feeling that it would be hard to break this book out. I'm not famous, and I don't have a big following, and I can't get that.I can't snap my fingers and, and make that a thing. There are a lot of books in this category from people that do have that. And so I just am at that disadvantage, and there's, there's nothing that we could do. So we decided that's the end of the road. So what I wanted to capture, the reason I wanted to record this was, this is a book called [00:05:00] Write Big.And writing big in my mind- is not about going for it. That's not what it's about. It might be, and when you write big, you might do that, and what I was doing in trying to get a traditional deal for this book was going for it, and I'm sad I didn't get it. That's the sadness. I'm sad I didn't get it. I really wanted this book to be in bookstores.I feel like it's a book that would do really well in bookstores, and should be in bookstores. That was my primary goal for getting a traditional deal, because I've self-published the Blueprint books, and they sell very well, and they do very well. And the one publisher that we spoke to commented upon that, actually said, “You do so well.What can we... What could we do that's different from what you're already doing?” So that is an [00:06:00] interesting part of the conversation. But I want it to be in bookstores, and it's hard to be in bookstores, really nearly impossible with a book like this from self-publishing. So the sadness is that I won't have that.And but underneath all of that sadness and the disappointment that it didn't work is a belief in what I'm doing. I have a finished manuscript. I have it out with two beta readers, and I'll be talking about why I picked those two and what that process was and how the feedback from them has gone and what I'm doing with that feedback in later episodes.But I know that this material is good. I know that it's useful. I'm excited about this material. My proposal had some killer marketing plan in it that I'm really excited to pursue without a [00:07:00] publishing partner, a traditional publishing partner, and some of the things that I wanna pursue will be easier without a publishing partner because I'll have control over the pricing and special offers and giveaways and things like that.But I... the, this book is not... this, this news is not the end of this book by any stretch of the imagination. It's just the end of this piece of what I wanted, and that's the core belief, is that this, this idea is solid and sound, and I'm excited about it, and I wanna bring it into the world, and actually nothing is gonna stop me from doing that, and I feel a fierce, m- what is it?Desire to do that. So I don't feel like this is a setback. I don't feel like it's a referendum on what I wrote. [00:08:00] I don't feel like it's personal I don't feel rejected. Again, I just feel sad because I had a, a dream or a vision of that, of that bookstore thing. But, you know, what does that represent? It...What it means is that this book would get into writers' hands, and it would get into writers' hands in that way of, you know, someone wanders into a bookstore and they're noodling around, and they are come upon that writer book reference shelf in which actually often several of my clients' books sit. And which is kind of ironic.One of, one of the re- uh, rejection letters actually referenced that they already have a book similar-ish to mine which is somebody that I, that I helped. So, and one of my coaches helped. So, yeah, it's a little bitter- [00:09:00] bittersweet part of that there, for sure. But, you know, the ultimate goal is that writers get this, and writers use this, and writers make something from the content in this book, and that can happen whether they encounter that book in the bookstore or not.So that is what is gonna happen. I will pursue this and move forward with this on my own. And, It, yeah, it feels, I'm just- I'm sort of closing my eyes and sitting here and trying to feel how I feel. I mean, I knew, I knew what was happening on this call. It wasn't a surprise to me. It was, you know, we agreed to add the submission and to have this conversation today.So I wasn't surprised by the news. But, you know, having the call is, is final and the agent that I chose for this project is lovely and loves my work and did it- did all she could do. Um, I have no, I have no, um, [00:10:00] feelings or regrets about her role in this. And yeah, I feel a little, uh... What do I feel?It's, uh, it's hard to know what you feel. Um, I feel a little, I guess vulnerable, uh, sharing, sharing this in what, um, will be a podcast, but I don't know. I just, I'm out here trying to teach and to lead and to coach, and I've coached so many writers through this moment in different ways and different kinds of books over the years, and it's part of the process.I- I've been in the seat of helping someone through it many, many times and it it will be okay. I know it will be okay. And, um, we're so lucky that we live in a time when the publishing decision is not the final decision. I have so much control and agency and choice, and maybe this is w- actually gonna be the best [00:11:00] possible for- thing for this book.And I'm starting to think about, oh, maybe I'll do a, a special kind of cover or a special hardback edition in addition to paper and e-book and audio. There's so many things that I could do and I'm excited to, to do it. So I will take a, a beat and mourn, mourn the thing that I didn't get that I wanted and move on.And that is what I think writing big is all about. Again, it's not going for it and, getting the big prize and that kind of energy. It's, you know what? how can you stop playing small and write like it matters? How can you go big in terms of your ownership of this and taking responsibility of this and doing what you can to bring it to life?And that's always in our control. So that's what I'm [00:12:00] gonna do, and I wanted to share that with you in the moment. So until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In a bonus #amwriting podcast episode, host Jennie Nash talks with academic writing coach Kathy Mazak of Scholar's Voice (and host of Academic Writing Amplified) about how writers keep going after completing a blueprint and finish what they start. Mazak explains her mission-based work helping academics—especially women and non-binary scholars—publish their research by aligning time management and writing with an academic mission statement. She argues that big blocks of time are unrealistic and that one to two hours once or twice a week can be enough if protected and supported by project management systems. They discuss common obstacles like not honoring writing time, fear of disappointing oneself, and harsh peer review, and emphasize mindset work as at least half the solution. Mazak describes managing multiple projects by focusing on a top three, letting others “sleep,” and “killing” stalled “zombie projects,” plus recognizing stage transitions and solving the right problem at the right level. She shares details on her 12-week Navigate program (scholarsvoice.org/navigate) and why members stay for years.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Learn more at http://scholarsvoice.org/.TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hey everyone, it's Jennie, and I'm here with a bonus episode of the podcast because a lot of our community has been working on their blueprints this summer to begin a new project, find momentum for one that's gotten derailed, or to work on a revision.And obviously stopping to think before you write is critical, but then the question is, what next? And how, how do we keep going? How do we finish what we started? And I invited my friend Kathy Mazak to join me today to have a conversation about this and to get her insights on this topic. Kathy, we're in a business mastermind together.That's how we met, [00:01:00] and we, um, immediately connected because Kathy runs a company called Scholar's Voice, which you can find at scholarsvoice.com. She has an incredible strategic mind, and her work focuses on helping tenured professors get their research and writing out of the endless backlog and actually submitted and published.So it's a different kind of writing than we normally talk about on the podcast, but I know we have a lot of a- academics in our audience, um, who are trying to write nonfiction or fiction or memoir, but also probably trying to publish the papers that are sitting on their desk. And Kathy helps so many people do that work and do it well, and she has really Amazing systems for doing that.And so she's gonna talk a little bit about her program and what she offers at the end, um, or maybe at the beginning too. But, [00:02:00] um, welcome Cathy.Cathy: Yay. Thank you so much for having me. So I know that we met in the business mastermind, but I've been following you for many years before that, and been listening to this podcast, and been subscribed to this podcast for, like, at least since 2019 when I started to, like, look at other writing podcasts.Jennie: Yeah.Cathy: And so it is ... It actually has been, like, a dream of mine to be on this podcast, so it's, like, so- Look at us ... great that we're doing this here today. Yes.Jennie: I completely forgot to say that you have a podcast as well. What is, what is the name of that?Cathy: Yeah. The podcast is called Academic Writing Amplified.It has, like, we're headed towards 350 episodes all about, like, getting your, uh, academic papers out there in the world when you're a busy professor. So yeah.Jennie: One of the things that I most like about your business is the way you describe it as it's really mission based. Yeah. It's, it's [00:03:00] really about helping academics take control of the narrative.Yeah. Right? Do you- Yeah ... do, will you tell us about that, ‘cause I love that.Cathy: Yeah. So for me, right, like, as a writing coach, so I was a full professor, like I went through, I have a PhD. I, I, I got my tenure track job. I went all the way through all the ranks, um, before I left and started this, uh, academic adjacent business.But I do it because, like, my big, like, mission is that the more, especially women and non-binary academics who get their papers out in the world, like, the more those voices are changing fields, and influencing research, and influencing thinking. And I just think, like, that is just so important. That's why the business is called Scholar's Voice, ‘cause it's about getting more diverse, typically marginalized voices out in these research spaces.Um, so [00:04:00] to me that's my mission, and when I have ... You know, when, when scholars come and do my program they write an academic mission statement, and really their whole time management, um, and writing project management, and sustainable writing practice is designed to, like, support that academic mission. So it's a very mission based, uh, business for me.But it's also, like, a, like my clients, like w- who take my programs are also, like, putting their academic missions, like, right at the center of their work. Which also puts writing at the center. Because to me, like, the writing is absolutely, is, is, like, the path to creating this better career, this focus on writing.Jennie: Well, and an academic has courses to teach and committees to go to, meetings to go to, and, you know, so many other demands on their time. And somebody trying to write a book has- Yep ... not [00:05:00] exactly those things, but probably a day job, and kids, and, you know, aging parents they have to care for, and the dog, and the car, and, you know, it's, it's writing in, in the real world.Mm-hmm. And the way you set your program up is you've honed this over so many years, i- and it's designed to, to help people actually get the work done. Yeah. So can you tell us a bit about how you structure that program? ‘Cause I think it'll be instructive to helping folks. Like, okay, here, you've finished your blueprint, now what?So- Yeah ... how do you, how do you get people to do it?Cathy: Yeah, yeah. So the first part is that I think that many people, when they think about writers, right, like if they just imagine themselves as a writer, they think that the ideal is, oh, I have like eight hours a day to dedicate to writing, or all my life, or whatever, you know, dreamy scenario we have in our minds.And I [00:06:00] think, like, for academics, i- the, the... it's like, oh, I need to be on a sabbatical, or I need to not be teaching. I need to... I cannot be doing any other thing. Um, or I can be doing other things, but I need like these big blocks of time to write. And the problem is, like you're saying, like writing in real life, like that just doesn't happen.And then when it might happen for academics is over the holiday breaks, like the semester breaks or the summer, but that also isn't true because you're also like, you know, being a mom and, and th- you know, doing things with your family, and managing your house, and maybe your aging parents, and whatever else.Like there's never a time where there's like nothing going on. So we have to stop thinking that that's the ideal and rather think, like what I tell my people, and they- Fight me on this, but at the beginning. But I tell them, actually one to two hours once or twice a [00:07:00] week is enough.Jennie: Ah. AndOutro: they'll be like, “No,Cathy: no,Outro: no,Cathy: IOutro: need-” Say that again.Cathy: Yeah, no. Say that again. One to two hours once or twice a week is enough, ‘cause remember, like, the low end of that means one hour a week, and the high end of that is four hours a week. And so a lot of times people come in and, and I'm, you know, for your, for the audience here, like, think about are you doing one hour a week consistently?Are you doing two hours a week consistently? If you're not, then let's just, like, back up and go there instead of thinking like, “Oh no, I need these big blocks of time that I can never actually get and hold.” ‘Cause that's the other thing, it's so hard to hold a big block. Um, like a four-hour block is hard to o- to hold.Uh, and alsoOutro: hard- Oh my gosh, four hours? ... to maintain your energy through.Cathy: No, no, people- What? No ... people haveOutro: all kinds of ideas.Cathy: And I'm like, and, and the other thing too I think is related to this idea, like for my people, right, that the work day is, like, this eight-hour day. [00:08:00] Like, but you can't ... I'm thinking you're not knowledge work for eight hours a day.Like, your brain can't do that, you know? So we really have to start, just, like, dial it back and start with, like, can I get consistency? Consistency doesn't have to mean every day. Could I get consistent with one or two hours once or twice, or twice a week, and actually do writing during that time so I have project management skills that mean when I sit down I know what to work on, and see how that works?Because guess what? If you did that, you would be ... Like, everything would be moving towards publication, and there would be many more words on the page.Jennie: Well, I love that so much because one of the things that I find is- Well, with writing or business or anything is I'll say, “Oh, I'm working so hard, and I'm so busy on it, and I'm spending all this time on it,” but really what I'm doing is sitting down at my desk and- Yeahrearranging, you know, [00:09:00] the folders on my desktop again. Or- Yeah ... um, you know, oh, I'll just go take a little peek over on Instagram, uh, to transition from... You know, like, it's just- Yeah ... I waste so much time. And-Cathy: Yeah ...Jennie: the- it's- if the, if the idea is, “Well, I got one to two hours, I'm gonna, I'm gonna use that time.”Cathy: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and that's why you have a blueprint, right? Like, this is why you do the blueprint because every time you sit down, you are faced with either the blinking cursor, right, the blank page, or you're faced even before that with maybe, like, what do I wanna work on? And so for academics, we're always working on more than one project at once.We always have, like, most academ- some academics are book writers. Many academics are... Almost all academics are article writers, and so you always have... Like, you never just, like, start the research for an article and [00:10:00] then just only do that until it's submitted and out in the world. You always have things at these different stages, like I call it your publication pipeline, but, like, you have things that are in the idea stage, in the data collection stage, in the analysis stage, the writing up stage, things that are submitted, you're waiting to get editorial feedback on them.All of that is happening all the time. So you, when you sit down, you're making a choice between all of these possible projects, unless you have a great project management system, you know? Or unless you have a roadmap that says like, “Okay, well, here's my roadmap. Let me... You're my blueprint. Like, let me sit down and start here.”You know? You ha- you need to have that place to start, or you'll just wheel spin with those, uh, one or two hours once or t- once or twice a week.Jennie: So I'm curious about what other objections people bring to your method. You said the first- Mm-hmm ... objection was, “Well, I, I need these giant blocks of time.” Yeah.What are some of the other objections that you hear to it?Cathy: Yeah. I think a lot of them, and [00:11:00] I think this is so common in, in writers of all kinds, is like, “I'm, I'm gonna let myself down.” Like, the, the, the biggest kind of mental thing is like, “Oh, I've tried it. I've tried to hold that time before, but I've never been successful at it, so if I keep trying, I'll just keep disappointing myself.”Um, whereas, like, the more structures and systems you put into place, the better those things can hold up those one to two hours once or twice a week, and then potentially grow them even. But you have to have, like, it, it can't be just I put it on my calendar- Because there has to be, the mindset has to be in the right place.You have to be honoring that time. Like, you- finding the time on your calendar is problem one for sure, like, because people are booked up. But the second part of that problem is I found it, I [00:12:00] put it there, and then when a student tried to make an appointment with me and they just couldn't possibly find any other time, I put them right on top of my writing.Or what many of the other possible scenarios where you would just schedule over what you had held for writing, and I think that's a That's a situation that's common among everybody with a life, right? Like, “Oh, the plumber said they could come during that time, and here I am just writing.” Just writing. You know, like, that's the first thing that has to change.Like, you have to f- to honor that writing time just like you would honor that really hard to get dermatologist appointment.Outro: That's what it needs to be. That's the level of honoring that we're, that we're talking about.Jennie: I'm laughing- Am I- ... ‘cause I'm looking, I, like, literally have been thinking whilst on this, we're looking at video while we're recording this at how beautiful your skin is, so it's hilarious that you mention that.I'm like, “Oh, wait. Maybe I need to be centering the dermatologist more.” [00:13:00]Cathy: Listen, I don't have a dermatologist appointment. If I did, I would, I would hold that. The one that really resonates for me, and maybe with some other moms of, like, kids, like, school-aged kids, is the freaking dentist. Like, I can't get a freaking kid's dentist appointment.Like, I call and they're like, “Yeah, we're just all booked up.” I'm like, “How is this possible?” You know, and so if there's a dentist appointment, I hold on to that. That's the kind of tenacity we want around the honoring the writing appointments.Jennie: So I wanna stick with this concept a little bit more, because I, I actually was writing about this for the Write Big, uh- Mmbook that I'm working on. Mm. And this idea that the reward of writing is way down the road. It- Mm. We don't really have any evidence that it's gonna actually pay off. Yeah. And I think that that tends to be the reason why it's so easy to say, “Well, this doesn't really matter,” or, [00:14:00] “I c- shouldn't really commit to this,” or, “I shouldn't go all in on this.”And some of that pressure comes from our own selves, as you mentioned. Yeah. But a lot of it comes from the people who love us, who are in our homes even, or, you know- Yeah ... the pressure, like, if you're trying to protect that hour or that four hours in your week and it's, you know, “Well, can you do this errand?”Or, “This kid got sick,” or this. To be, to say, “Well, no, that's my writing time”-Cathy: Yeah ...Jennie: it, it's like, well, what evidence do you have that that's worth anything? Yeah. Right? Is ... Do you find that with academics too?Cathy: Uh, I think that, yes, 100%, um, because the payoff is really far away. Um, but even, like, I would argue that another thing happening in people's heads is that the payoff might be somebody read it and hated it.[00:15:00]Like, so you're also avoiding it because- You know, like the end result might be that you, like turn it into your book coach, and the book coach says you have to redo it all. Right. You know? Or like- You missedJennie: the mark. Right ...Cathy: you missed the mark. Exactly. And so, but like we just don't think of that, or so that fear of that we're gonna do this work, we're gonna hold our writing time, which feels very selfish and feels like who do you think you are that you're gonna hold time for your writing, you know?Like, who are you, Ernest Hemingway? Like, like, you know what I mean? Like we, we have these thoughts in our head, and then we, and then, um, the, the great payoff of all of that hard work of holding the time and actually doing the writing might be, in the case of my people, like that some real A-hole reviewer tears you apart.And-Jennie: Because your- Yeah ... people have to have peer reviews- That's right ... for everything, right?Cathy: For [00:16:00] everything. Even books. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So everything is peer reviewed, and I mean, I was just coaching somebody yesterday on like why are, why we have, I call it like submission friction. Like I talk about all these different points in the writing process, and how- Every point, there's like, there's friction to move the work from one kind of thing to another kind of thing.So there, like when you go from draft to like submitted article, y- it's becoming something different, and your job and your relationship to the, that piece of writing is different between when you've drafted it and when you've submitted it to a journal. Um, there's lots of other transition points, but I was coaching somebody yesterday who was like, “Yeah, I got all this really bad feedback,” like really badly worded feedback, right?Like, it wasn't just critical, it was also delivered poorly because peer review in academia is blind, so you don't know who read it, and so people say all kinds of things [00:17:00] without you, you know, without fear that you're g- they're gonna see you at a conference. So you know, supposedly they don't know who you are, you don't know who they are.And it can be like really horrible, and this, this client, she was like, “I just can't... I have trouble, I'm having trouble submitting anything from that study because that person's words are in my head.” Oh. So like, so we also have like for the great effort of holding the writing time and doing, we might get these terrible things that like stop us in our tracks, and then we have to like coach our own minds through like, okay, why is it true that submitting again won't necessarily have those same results, you know, and whatever else you need to, you know...Like I work with my clients on different things they can think to get over that friction of submitting and that fear. But, but yeah, like sometimes there's a payoff, and sometimes the payoff is like, “Congratulations, we're g- people are really mean.”Jennie: [00:18:00] Yeah. Yeah,Cathy: yeah. Yeah,Jennie: so how much time do you spend in your program, would you say, on You know, so there's the tactics and the- Mm-hmmsetting up the systems- Yeah ... versus mindset. Yeah. Like, what's the balance?Cathy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So my program is set up so that you do the program in 12 weeks, and guess how long it takes to do the program every week? One to two hours. And you do it once or twice a week. So, like, if you take the program, it forces you to hold, like, an hour to do the material and an hour for a live call.So the live call is where we're really getting into the coaching stuff. Like, I, you know, there's only so much coaching you can do on, like, a prerecorded lesson, right? But we do talk about mindset, um, throughout the whole thing. But on the coaching calls is really when we talk about mindset and, and get to figure out, like, [00:19:00] is the problem that you're having actually a strategy problem, or are you having a mindset problem?Is it, like, something that's happening, or is it the way you're thinking about what's happening? So I would say it's, like, a half and half, um, kind of breakdown between strategies and, um, techniques and, like, here's processes, and let's get your mind right.Jennie: Well, I mean, that's, to me, a, a giant revelation. I, I believe that mindset is at least 50% as well.Yeah, yeah. And I think most writers don't have any idea that, how important mindset is. And the program you and I are in together, the business mastermind that we're in together, is hugely mindset focused, and it- Yeah ... it's hard to show up with your mindset stuff. It's embarrassing. Mm. Mm. And, you know, it's hard to get coaching on it, at least for me anyway, because it's, oftentimes it's like, “You're saying the same thing in a different way.[00:20:00] Like, that's just the same story, different words,” you know? You really have to confront the narratives that you have in your head, and where they came from, and what they're serving, and that's work too, right? Yeah,Cathy: absolutely. Yeah. Yeah,Jennie: absolutely. And I mean, that's, to me, the thing that I've, I've really learned, and your program honors that idea by half the time that people are spending is the, the mindset.Cathy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and then we also... Like, the program is designed so that you take it once, and then you can keep taking additional rounds of the program. The content of the program doesn't change, but you continue to have these mi- these, these coaching calls, right? Where we talk about, there's kind of two part- like, two themes of the coaching calls.Like, one theme is like, oh, now I- my whole calendar is really mission aligned, and I'm holding my writing time and whatever. And then what is the series of problems that happens after that, [00:21:00] right? Like, what's the next level? Like, now that we've solved these things, ‘cause there's never no, there's never no problems.Like, like, the next set of problems, uh, presents itself. Um, so we coach on those things. But also, like, I've just been, especially this, in this next group, I've told people, like, I'm like, “We're gonna do more mindset than ever.” Like, we're just gonna really coach your brains on, um, you know, on perfectionism, on procrastination, on transition friction, on zombie projects, on like, um-Jennie: What's a zombie project?Cathy: Ooh, those are those things that are like, they're not going anywhere. They're dead, but you're holding onto them in your mind, like someday I'm gonna get back to that. And it is not healthy to do that. So we, I, when I talk about, like, um, how to manage multiple projects at once, like so think multiple articles that you're writing at once, people [00:22:00] have...Like, academics have, I don't know, like 10, 20 articles that they have, like that they're holding in their mind as like these are possible articles that I could work on or these are projects that... I call them projects in play, right? Well, a lot of times like five of those are like, “Oh, this is a project I started.There might be words on the page, but it stalled out.” We needed to do a reanalysis, and we didn't n- and, and it was gonna be a lot of work to go back and do that, so it's just kind of like alive but dead, right? Like a zombie. Yeah. So I tell people, and again, they fight me on this, like I'm like, “You need to kill them.”Like you need... Zombie projects aren't for resuscitating. They are for blessing and releasing. They are for like this is done. This is not going to... Because they're in the way of all of the other living projects. So I talk about the projects as like we have a top three that are kind of, that we're maybe rotating between or [00:23:00] that like once we, we, we submit something from the top three we can like promote something else, and then everybody else is sleeping.You know? Just tell them they need to take a nap. And then the zombie projects we're just, we kill them. You can, if you must, have a folder on your computer and put them there, but you need to get them out of like your working mind. They shouldn't be in your pipeline. They should be like they... Because we can only hold so many things, and we can only manage so many projects at once, so we have to create systems and processes to make it feel like we're only working on one thing at a timeJennie: Well, I think this idea, which I adore now that I know what it is-um, applies to book writers as well. Everybody has more than one book idea, and they have the book idea that they wanna write after the book that they're working on, or they started three at a time or s- you know, oftentimes there's a thing that happens, I think it happens about two-thirds of the way through a [00:24:00] book- Hmmwhere suddenly you have a great idea for another book that is shinier and prettier and brighter and better- Yes ... than the one you're working on.Outro: Yep.Jennie: And so this idea, I think, really applies to book writers, and most of us who are writing and sharing anything are also writing other content like- Yes. YesSubstack and, um, or a newsletter or a podcast or whatever th- whatever the content that we're working on is. So do you think that this idea of the zombie project- Mm-hmm ... or folder can apply there as well?Cathy: For sure, because here's the thing, right? The shiny object syndrome is really real be- and it, and it relates actually to the submission friction that I was talking about.Like, I did a call about that just yesterday. Like, it relates because- Before your project is done, right, before it's submitted, before it's turned in, whatever, [00:25:00] it has the potential to be the very most amazing, best book that has ever been written by anyone. And as long as I don't submit it, it is holding that potential.Jennie: Yes. Okay.Cathy: And so once the, so the more, but the more done the book gets, the less po- Like, almost like the less that po- the, the more that potential is kind of decreasing because it, it's not that it's not great, maybe it is that book, but like the potential of what it could become when it actually has become something is less, right, than the new shiny idea because the new shiny idea then has like all of this potential.So, so I think that's the, the newness of something like is, i- is very attractive, and it has so much to do with like our brains trying to avoid the hard work of the finishing and trying to... Like, [00:26:00] w- when something is new, you don't know what the writing problems are yet. Yeah. But what, what's existing, you have a lot of problems to solve.There's a ton of decisions to make.Jennie: Yeah.Cathy: And, um, and, and that, that feels hard and heavy.Jennie: So for our listeners who are finishing up their blueprints, they're coming across one of those friction points you talked about, where you're going from planning your book, thinking about it, solving some problems, to you're going back to writing ‘cause the- Yeahblueprint is a kind of a pause. Not kind of, it's a pause, and now you're going back to the writing, and that s- transition is something a lot of writers don't acknowledge- that it's a different thing. So that idea- Right ... you were talking about of, um, when your academic writers are shifting from, you know, one thing to another.They have a lot more shifts in a lot [00:27:00] more compressed period of time. But writers absolutely go through this, and then when they, when they call it done and get it to beta readers, and then they get it back and get it to, you know, going to pitch, those are all transition points. So a lot of our listeners are at one of those right now.Yeah. What is, what is the mindset work to, that you guide people for shifting from one, um, process to another?Cathy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So your job changes. Like, that's the, that, that's the, you know ... Like, the job of, like, when you're doing the blueprint, right? It's a planning, it's a pausing, it's a thinking, it's aRight? The same thing we do, like, I teach a writing planning process, and that process is one kind of job, right? The job of, like, making decisions- And executing on those decisions. So the making decisions is another job, and the [00:28:00] executing on the decisions is another job. So just realizing, like, what is my job in this moment, that is a really powerful thing to think about and think like, “No, in the scope of this whole project, my job right now is to make decisions that then I can execute on.”Jennie: Yes.Cathy: And also... Yes. And not, and remember then, like, you execute on the decisions, and you might have to go back and make new decisions and execute differently. Like, that's what composition, that's what composing is, right? But you, you know, keep the job that you're, for the stage that you're at, and stop trying to solve the problems of another stage in the process.Jennie: So bleeding into other jobs sounds like it's a energy suck. So for, uh, a, somebody finishing the blueprint, it might be, “Well, now I'm gonna start researching agents and conferences I can go to to pitch at.” And it's like, “No, you gotta write the book,” right? Yes. Is that-Outro: Exactly, [00:29:00] exactly ...Jennie: is that the kind of thing- Yesyeah.Cathy: Yeah, and so, like, a- and it's also, I talk a- I talk in the program about, like, you're solving the wrong problem at the wrong level, right? Like, that's an in- perfect example of I'm solving the wrong problem. Like, I don't, I don't need to be, like, thinking about pitching agents. I need to be figuring out what my book idea is.Like, you know what I mean? And so for, like, in, in, in our, in my program, there's, you know, let's say I think that what I have is a writing time problem, but if I don't have writing project management, like if I don't know how to plan a paper and I don't know what the stages it needs to go through are, and I don't know how to manage it in relation to other papers that I have, I can have two hours of writing, and I will sit there and not know what to do with it.Jennie: Yes.Cathy: So, like, there has to be, you know, you ha- so solving, you have to solve the right problem. You know? Like I, okay, I have a backlog of papers. I think it's ‘cause I don't have enough time. Like, you probably don't have enough time, but that's not the [00:30:00] only problem, you know? And that might not be the most pertinent problem to solve first.Jennie: Right. I love this. I love this for our people finishing Blueprint. Um, and w- I'm curious just to sort of wrap up our conversation, why do you think... ‘Cause something that's remarkable about the program that you run, which is again at scholarsvoice.com-Cathy: It's actually .org, but yeahJennie: Oh, dang.Outro: Dot org.Jennie: I said it wrong. Don't worry about it. It's fine. Scholarsvoice.org. We'll put it down in the show notes. It'll go in the show notes. Yeah. Um, well, the remarkable thing is that people love your program. Like, once they find it, they don't leave. Yeah. They, they stay for a long time. Years. Yeah. Years and years and years.Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do you think that is?Cathy: Because we're never done. We're never done as writers.Jennie: Yeah.Cathy: Right? Like, we're always developing, and we're always [00:31:00] changing, and we're always responding to new situations. And I just think, like, I think it would be terrible to think, like, “I've learned how to write a novel or a book or an article, and now I'm done.Like, and now I just, like, rinse and repeat for 30 years.” Like, no, that's not how it works. First of all, it's just not how it works, and also, would you really want it to work like that? Don't you want it to get more interesting, different, better? Like, and so that's why people stay, ‘cause the, the, the curriculum is...I- it's called, like, a spiral curriculum, where you could just, like, keep doing it again and again. And as you are going through your career, you are changing, and your situation is changing, and actually the demands of your career are changing. And so you can just continue to do this work over and over again, and, and many people do it and then come back after they've had, like, a little career change, and they realize, “Ooh, now all of these things have [00:32:00] shifted, and I need to, like, go back and figure all of this out again.”And that's normal and natural and fine and actually amazing.Jennie: Um, so how can... If people are listening to this, and they're like, “Wait, I wanna get in on this academic writing-” Yeah ... thing, I... So it's only for tenured professors. It's not- So- ... for people who want to be that, right? No.Cathy: Yeah, so we... It is really for academics.It's really geared towards people who are in academic careers, tenured or hoping, you know, tenure-track professors or whatever they call it in the country that you live in, ‘cause it's called different things. Um, it- we have a lot of people who are mid-career. Like, so it's not just for early career. Um, but we, we have people at all different career stages, including post-docs, including full-time researchers, and so...And even sometimes people from industry, like, or nonprofit who are doing research work and need to put out publications [00:33:00] into academic journals. So yeah, and you can go to scholarsvoice.org, and at the top navigation it says, “Publish your backlog,” and that is my Navigate program, which is really focused on helping you publish that backlog of papers and keep papers, like, flowing out into the world.Um, scholarsvoice.org/navigate is where you'll find all the information, and you can apply, and it's open until, open for applications until August 28th.Jennie: That is awesome. Well, if you're, if you're listening, um, now and that speaks to you, you can jump on that. If you're listening in the future, uh, there will be another opportunity, uh, to get into- YeahCathy's program. And if you're listening to the hashtag amwriting, uh, podcast and you're not an academic, and- You're finishing a blueprint or you're realizing after this conversation, “Gosh, I'm doing the wrong job at the wrong [00:34:00] time,” or, “I don't have a time problem, I have a mindset problem,” or any of these, these ideas that Cathy has shared with us.Put them into practice and, and I think that for writers listening to podcasts like this is part of the mindset work because- Yes ... you're listening to bigger conversations and bigger ideas, and you're getting something in your ear that counteracts that story you're telling your own self. So, um, I'm just grateful for you, Cathy, for sharing those stories and thoughts with us today, and for doing this amazing work that you're doing out in the world.So thank you for joining us.Cathy: Thank you for having me on the podcast.Jennie: And for our listeners, thanks for being here. Now let's get back to work and finish what matters most.Outro: The #amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, [00:35:00] aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Jennie Nash hosts a #amwriting podcast BookLab with guest Kathleen Barber, author of Truth Be Told and newly released Sisterhood Above All (co-written with Amayah Shaienne), and discusses Barber's range across thrillers and romance, her character-first approach, and how RushTok inspired an authentic sorority-rush thriller featuring Madison, Shay, and Ava as tensions escalate and someone dies. They define RushTok as viral TikTok coverage of University of Alabama sorority recruitment and note its broad international fascination. In the BookLab, they evaluate three first-page submissions by asking “Would we turn the page?” They praise Heather's Trust Me for strong voice, vivid Austin setting, and an intriguing problem hook, with minor notes about genre context. They decline Odeon Omega due to unearned logistics and too much dialogue despite an intriguing title/advert. They find Empty Spaces compellingly written but confusing from too many names and unclear stakes, suggesting more interiority and clarity.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Connect with KathleenVisit Kathleen's website to find her books and more: https://www.kathleenbarber.comTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a book lab session where we answer the most important question about your first pages.Would we pick up the book? Would we turn the page? Today, I have a really special guest with me. I have Kathleen Barber here, who is so many things. She's the author of Truth Be Told, which was adapted as a series on Apple TV, Follow Me, Both Things Are True, and just brand new, like it came out four days ago, Sisterhood Above All, with, I'm gonna try her name, Amaya Chen?How do you-Barbara: Yeah. Uh, um, yeah. That's, that's very close. I think it's Amaya Chen.Jennie: Okay. Yeah. Uh, so we're gonna hear about that in a minute. Um, I haven't, I haven't cracked it open yet, but I'm so [00:01:00] excited for it. Um, Kathleen's also an Author Accelerator certified book coach and a former attorney, and she lives in Washington, DC with her family.So welcome, Kathleen.Barbara: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.Jennie: So I watched your unboxing the other day. It was so fun, and I didn't realize that we had scheduled this right on top of, like the actual- Oh ... launch of your book.Barbara: No, that, that's okay. It's, it's great. Um, it gives me something to think about that's not just, like, spiraling.Like, is anybody gonna read my book? Is anybody gonna like it? Um, so it gives me something else to focus on.Jennie: Well, it's so interesting you say that because I think of you as this really seasoned pro and, you know, it's been really interesting for me to watch your career because you've written some really different kinds of books.You did a ... Well, your first book was obviously a big thriller and a huge success, and at one point, you pivoted to romance, and now you're doing ... Well, I, I saw that book list [00:02:00] called Sisterhood Above All, a soapy thriller Yes. Yes ... which is such a great description, and you did it with a collaborator. So you just seem interested in story to me.Barbara: I, I am. Yeah. I'm always very ... I always start a story with the characters. Um, and so then their story kind of spirals out from there. Um, yeah, so I, my last book that came out before this one was, was a rom-com. Um, and I was really nervous when I started writing it. I was like, “How am I going to write this when I've been writing suspense and thrillers before?”And it turns out that, like, at the heart of it, stories are stories, and people are people, and, you know, in a romance, happy things happen. In a thriller, bad things happen, but things still happen.Jennie: Amazing. So give us the overview of the brand new book, ‘cause it's, it's really juicy.Barbara: Yeah. Yeah, so I'm really excited about it.Um, Sisterhood Above All is a thriller set during sorority rush, and so it follows three different [00:03:00] women who are involved there. There's Madison, who is the president of what's she perceives as to be the coolest sorority on campus, so she's kind of the gatekeeper, and there's Shay, who is the president of a rival sorority and trying to shake, shake up the Greek institutions, and then there's Ava, who is a potential new member.She's going through rush. She's desperate to join Madison's sorority, um, and she might be a little too desperate. Uh, so you know, it's a thriller. Bad things happen. Somebody dies, um, you know, and things kind of spiral out, spiral out of control.Jennie: But tell us about the collaboration, ‘cause it's- Yeah ... so interesting how that came about and how it went and-Barbara: Yeah.You know, it was, it was a lot of fun. Um, I, like many writers, write alone, and I had never really considered collaborating with anybody before, um, but- But when I was kind of talking about this, I, I'd been pitching my agent a sorority themed thriller for a while. [00:04:00] Um, and at one point when, when Rush Talk was getting really big a couple summers ago, she was like, “This is the moment.This, you should write this book, but I think that in order to make it feel more authentic, we should bring in somebody who's living this in this moment.” Um, so one of her colleagues found Amaya, who, um, was up until very, very recently an active member of a sorority at the University of Alabama, and brought us together.And Amaya and I got along right away, and we both had kind of the same vision for what we wanted the book to be, and so collaborating with her was, was a lot of fun in a way that I had been nervous that it wouldn't be. But it was, it was a really good time, and I'm really, really proud of the book.Jennie: So for those who don't know or weren't following, can you tell us what Rush Talk-Barbara: YeahwasJennie: or isBarbara: or- Yeah ... shall be? Yes, yes, yes. So, um, so if you're gonna join a sorority, um, you go through, you go through recruitment and which is very slangily [00:05:00] called rush. Um, and so on TikTok a few years ago, um, people started sharing about their experiences during sorority rush, but specifically, uh, during sorority rush at the University of Alabama.Um, and it really took on a life of its own, like people were watching it like it was, you know, a television program. Uh, they made a documentary about it, which, you know, I'll, I will let you make your own conclusions about the documentary. Um, but people just got really, really into it, and people... And it was kind of appealing to people who had gone through sorority rush at some point, were thinking about going through a sorority rush, or who were just invested in, you know, watching people have these kind of outlandish experiences and, and share them.So, um, itJennie: was a lot of fun. My understanding was that it got very, very popular in other countries?Barbara: I- it's definitely... [00:06:00] Yeah. You know, um- So sorority, some, some sororities are international. Not, not all of them are. Um, but by and large, when they say international, they mean that there are chapters in Canada, not that, like, there are chapters in, you know, like Europe or, or other countries.And so it just, it's something that is so unique and so, like, uniquely about, like, this type of college experience that I think it's been really interesting to people in lots of different places.Jennie: Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. So obviously the book has been out, like, mere hours here. But, um, how does it feel? Are you, are you- It's excitingyou said you were excited and proud and- SoBarbara: exciting. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm really, really proud of the book. I love it. I mean, I know everybody, like, loves their own books, but I do. I truly, like, love this book, and I just really hope that the readers do too.Jennie: You know, it's not true that everybody loves their book.I, I was dying to have somebody on the podcast who will never come on the podcast. But I- Yeah ... I heard a story about somebody who [00:07:00] got a seven-figure deal for a book that they really didn't actually love, and then- Oh, no ... they, they wrote it. It came out, and then when they had to co- come time to do the publicity, they just dreaded it.They, it was like a, just they did it for the money. They got the money, and then didn't, didn't wanna talk about it, like felt sort of ashamed about it. And I was like, “Oh, please, come talk about that.” But of course they, they won't. So...Barbara: That's wild. Isn't that wild? That's wild. Yeah. I just, I just can't even imagine how that would feel.Um, I mean...Jennie: I know. Well, I, uh, the cover of this, um, of this new book, Sisterhood Above All, is- is really cool too. So we will link to it in the show notes, and everyone can go read it and check it out, and, um, Kathleen's other books, I've read them all, and you have such range and, um, like I said, [00:08:00] interesting stories.So with that, let's get to our, our Book Lab entries. We just always wanna start by thanking those who submitted. It's not easy to do this, to put your stuff out there with no context and no ability to talk back or anything and have random s- people on the internet, you know, talk about your stuff. So really appreciate the, the risk-taking of doing that, and we do this in order to help us all get better and, and learn, you know, what works and, and, um, for your own self or your own writing, what, what you want it to be.So what we're gonna do, as always, is I'm gonna read the entry, and then we're gonna ask ourselves, would we turn the page? So, um, the first entry is Fiction and it is, uh, author's name is [00:09:00] Heather and the name of the work is Trust Me. So here we goI can't tell you whether it's the Johnny Cash mural, clusters of candles nestled into every corner of the long stone bar, or the smoky scent of Palo Santo that tucks Austin into my head the first night. Maybe it's the unexpected jazz trio on a Tuesday in a town built for blues, country, and rock, or it could be the two cowboys deep in conversation at a table in the back of the bar.I'll later, I'll later learn that making a hot Austin guy a cowboy because of his hat, faded jeans, and scuffed boots is the same as labing- labeling a frat bro in a hoodie and sweats an athlete. It's just how they dress. I can tell you I like the looks of Austin men a hell of a lot better, especially that wide silver belt buckle that dresses up the whole package in a bow.It's going [00:10:00] on nine PM when I arrive at Whistlers in East Austin, and the bartender hands, hands me a peach-colored mezcal craft cocktail. Fresh juice, pungent herbs, and the smoky sister to tequila are the perfect salve after what's transpired since my flight landed from New York two hours earlier. I follow the snake tattoo on his foreha- forearm as the bartender shakes another cocktail for the couple next to me.Damn, he's hot, too. The crowd starts to pick up, and I signal Snake Tattoo for another before I lose his attention for good. The warm agave liquor spreads through my bones, and I start to relax. Maybe this isn't the disaster I think it is. Maybe I can actually pull it off. I glance around at the mostly twenty and thirty-something crowd angling for spots at the bar.The women wear short dresses and long hair. The men, well, those jeans are something, along with their finely cut biceps and well-placed tattoos. Can't help but glance over at those cowboys again and get a warm smile in [00:11:00] return. Easy, girl. Back to business. I have a problem, and this second mezcal is going to help me solve it.All right. What do you think? What was your first impression?Barbara: I really enjoyed that. I would definitely turn the page there. I, I feel like there was, like, a really strong sense of, sense of place, and I, in particular, I really enjoyed the, the first line, not only because it gives us that sense of place, but it, because it also then tells us something about the narrator and how she perceives the world around her in that first line.Jennie: Yeah, and, and there's a good m- a, a good question at hand here, which is what's she doing here?Barbara: Mm-hmm.Jennie: She's come from New York. We get that. It's a little unclear how, how old she is, ‘cause she's referencing other people's ages, but not her own, so we, we don't really know what's happening or what, what's, what's about.[00:12:00] Um, I mean, I thought the writ-Barbara: Well, IJennie: agree. Yeah. I thought the writing was great. It sort of tripped along-Barbara: Mm ...Jennie: um, nicely. IBarbara: like at the end where... I'm sorry. I didn't mean to step on you. No,Jennie: no, go. Yeah. I like atBarbara: the end, I like at the end where, um, she says she has a problem, and the second mezcal is gonna help her solve it.I thought that was really interesting, ‘cause I, it piqued my interest, made me wanna know what the problem is, but it's also kind of funny. Like, the mezcal's probably not gonna help you solve your problem, but it's like...Jennie: Yeah. No, it's so true. I was longing for a little bit more of a sense of what's happening here.I mean, this could be any kind of story at this point. It could be she could be a spy. She could be an assassin. She could be trying to get a guy back. Like, we, there's really no sense of what the story's gonna be. I always like that on the first page. What about you?Barbara: Yeah. I, I agree with you. I, it, it could, it could go in any direction.I kind of [00:13:00] sense from the tone that it's, you know, it's going to be something, uh- Well, I guess I don't know. You know, honestly. Now, now that I'm looking at it again and thinking about it, um, you're right, it could be... The, the problem that she has could be a thriller problem, or it could be a romantic problem, since she's kind of made, made comments about the different men.I think that was a hint to me that it might be a romantic problem that she's having, but I actually don't know.Jennie: Yeah. The, the- obviously she's clocking all the hot guys in this bar, which tells us something, either about her or what she's up to. We don't know. Um, but yeah, it's, um, really good detail, like the, you mentioned that first line, and I liked the line about her sh- the self-awareness about, you know, she calls him a cowboy and then she says, you know, sort of like, “Oh, right, that's not really fair.”Mm-hmm. “We don't know.” [00:14:00] You know, that, I thought that was, made me think- Yeah ... this character's gonna know themselves.Barbara: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I agree with that. I, I also really enjoyed the kind of specificity that she uses in the descriptions, like when she talks about, you know, the, the cocktail that she's drinking, and the tattoo on the bartender's arm.Like, I just felt like those details really made the story come alive for me. So that, like, even if I didn't exactly know where we were going, I could, I could picture where we were.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. That's really well said. Well, we like this. I think I would, I would turn the page.Barbara: I would, I would too, yeah. Mm-hmm.Jennie: We would turn the page. Um, I mean, the only notes I think for me would be, I mean, it's always so tricky, because if we were picking this book up, the title, Trust Me, doesn't really tell us anything, but the cover would.Outro: Mm-hmm.Jennie: The vibe of the cover would. We'd have a little more context for where we were and [00:15:00] what this was about, and that would probably help with the issue that, that I have, which is, well, what kind of book is this?We don't know. Um, and you know, now that I'm thinking of it, we don't even know whe- where we are in time. Um, I'm, I'm assuming modern day, but I don't know why I assumed that. It, maybe it's not. So maybe just a tiny bit more of a sense of- Uh, context for the reader. Mm-hmm. But that's my only note. L- do you have any notes?Barbara: Yeah. You know, I honestly don't think that I, I have any additional notes. I mean, I, I really enjoyed this selection, and I would definitely keep reading here.Jennie: Well, Heather, that's high praise, soBarbara: Yeah, I, I usually have ideas. I usually have notes but I don't.Jennie: Yeah, that's, uh, that's g- a good one for us to start with, and very fun, I hope, for you to hear that from Kathleen.All right, let's [00:16:00] go to our, our next one. This is fiction. It's called Odeon Omega, um, and the author is ... Well, the, the, um, it's coming across as, um, Sound Smith, but who knows what that is? So, um, Odeon Omega, they will know who they are, for sure. All right, here we go. “The grand O-O opening continues all month long at your new entertainment destination, the one and only, first of its kind on this or any other coast, the all-new, all-excitement Odeon Omega.‘Gah!' Emmy shrieked from the bathroom. ‘You can turn the TV volume down now, Seth. We're done.' Seth was still lying in bed, his naked body mostly covered with Emmy's cream-colored, satiny soft sheets. He chuckled while reaching for the remote. ‘I wasn't the one who turned it up.' ‘I know that. I have to [00:17:00] turn the TV way up like that, though.It's the only way to drown out the neighbors. The walls in this place are so damn thin, and they're always banging on them, disturbing me when I'm trying to have sex.' ‘Those b******s,' Seth chuckled. ‘I'm saying, I like ... I'm saying, like, what am I supposed to do? Not f**k? Hey, that is so not an option,' Seth p- Seth pressed the mute button, then went back to lying on his back, his hands behind his head.Another noise startled him, this one coming from Emmy's phone. A toneless version of Girls Just Wanna Have Fun blared from Emmy's clutch purse. ‘Turn that off, too,' Emmy shouted from the bathroom. ‘That's my mother's ringtone. I don't feel like talking to her right now.' Seth rolled over to the nightstand and opened her clutch and found the button to silence Emmy's phone.He lingered on the image of Emmy's mother. ‘Wow, Emmy, you and your mom could pass for sisters, easy.' ‘Ew, don't tell me that,' Emmy said. ‘Tell her that, but not me. Bet you're already imagining yourself in a threesome with her and me, [00:18:00] aren't you?' ‘Huh, what's that?' Seth was distracted by Emmy's driver's license in the clutch's interior pocket.He slid it out of the pocket and read what he assumed was Emmy's birth name. ‘Myrtle? What? Your re- your real name is Myrtle?' Emmy stepped out of the bathroom, still naked from their lovemaking, with a sky blue-colored towel clenched between her legs.”That's a vibe.Barbara: It is. It is, yeah. I mean, opening, uh, opening in the aftermath of sex is a, is a bold choice. I'll be honest, I don't feel like I have very much context for what's happening here. Um, it seems like Emmy and Seth don't know each other veryJennie: well. I got that sense, too. I got that sense, too, and that the sex that she has this system for turning up the TV has been for other people.Barbara: Mm-hmm. [00:19:00] Yeah. On, on that note, though, I did kind of have, uh, a fundamental disbelief about the setup that was giving me a stumbling block when I was reading this, just because it didn't seem to make a lot of sense to me that she would turn up the television to distract herself from the neighbors, when I would think that that would be more distracting or, you know, just use music or...And I didn't really understand why she would be explaining it to him after the fact instead of in the moment. Um, that felt like it was perhaps just put there for the reader,Jennie: so that we could be distracted. Yeah, it was a little explainy, a little... Yeah, like a, um, we use that term info dump, and an info dump doesn't have to be a whole scene.It can just be a line like that where I, I didn't buy it either that she would actually say that to him now. Mm-hmm. If... He probably would've said, “Why are you turning the TV on?”Barbara: Right.Jennie: Earlier.Barbara: Yeah. Yeah, [00:20:00] yeah, and it seemed like that would be the conversation that would have before we got to this moment. So that was something that, that I struggled with a bit.Jennie: I also didn't believe, it felt like, uh, unearned that he's pulling this license out of her purse. I could see, I could see that he might have seen something on her phone if he's turning her phone off. But-Barbara: Mm-hmm ...Jennie: to, to actually then see... I kept, like I was trying to think through the logistics. Like, okay, see one of those little slidey things inside a purse, but you can't see- Mmthe driver's license. Like, why would he reach in and pull it out? It felt like the author wanted us to get to this moment where- Mm-hmm ... Seth got this information.Barbara: Mm-hmm. Yeah.Jennie: It, yeah, it felt unearned to me.Barbara: Yeah. I, I agree, especially because it doesn't seem like Seth knows her very well, obviously. Then for him to be [00:21:00] digging around in her clutch purse felt- Untrue to the situation, um, unless something else was going on that we don't hear about.Jennie: Yeah, yeah. Um, this... When I said, like, “Well, this is a vibe,” this character has a, a tone or a style or sense about, like a sort of swagger about- Mm-hmm ... her that interests me. Um, I happen to be in the middle... I'm behind everybody else, but I'm in the middle of reading Yesteryear. Oh. Have you read-Barbara: Oh. Yes, yes.Jennie: Don't tell me what ha- I, I- Don't tell me ...Barbara: I w- I won't. I was also late to it, and everybody was trying to tell me about it, and I was just constantly walking around going, “No spoilers, no spoilers.” Yeah.Jennie: But the, that character has, has such a brashness- Mm-hmm ... of point of view and opinion in both, um, both parts of the story there, and there's something about this character that rem- reminds me of that.[00:22:00] There's like a, I don't know, um, a, just a brashness. S- And I, I've been enjoying that protagonist- Mm-hmm ... the Yesteryear protagonist, just ‘cause it's unusual. I've read a tiny bit, and I know people are saying, “Oh, she is so unlikable,” but there's just something of a character that's so owning their, um-Barbara: Mm-hmmJennie: way, and this woman's ownership of, of her sexuality, I guess, I, I thought was- Hmm ... interesting.Barbara: Yeah. No, I, I, I know what you mean, and I, I, I am intrigued by her as a character because, I mean, again, here she, she seems to have kind of an interesting setup in a, an apartment building that has thin walls, um, has this system of turning up her television, um, but not with Seth before.So, you know, it seems like she's had several partners back to this, this space. Um, but she seems very, very confident and, like you said, kind of swaggery [00:23:00] with him. Um, so yeah, I, I am intrigued to know more about, like, who she is and what makes her that way. Um...Jennie: Yeah. Uh, for me, probably not enough to turn the page.Um-Barbara: Not for, not for me either. I-Jennie: Yeah. And, and I have to say that the thing that intrigues me the most about this whole thing is that the title of this book is Odeon Omega, and that's the random, um- I think that's the random show on TVBarbara: Yeah,Jennie: the- Am I ma- am IBarbara: making that up? No, no, no, that, that, that's the first line.It's, um, it sounds like it's maybe like a commercial. I was kind of envisioning it from the way that it was spelled out as, you know, kind of like, uh, oh, the way that like a, a carnival or like a car salesman is like, “The grand o- o- opening.” Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, that's kind of how I was envisioning it.Um, so I, I didn't, I did enjoy s- seeing that right up front, um, [00:24:00] but I wanted more context to understand what it was, because without that, I, I don't know what that line means. Um-Jennie: And that just the author's choice, like, okay, the TV's on f- for a random reason- Mm-hmm ... or for her systematic sex reason, and, and she's hearing this show opening, and then that's the title of the book.Like, something about this, I, I thought of it as a, yeah, like a carnival or a show or something- Mm-hmm ... a theme park, um, that there's g- that's gonna become central to the story. It's kind of an interesting way of putting that in in, and presumably- Mm ... it will come back, um- Yeah ... in an important way. But I, I was intrigued by that most of all, actually.Barbara: Yeah. No, same, especially because that's the moment that Emmy says, “Turn the volume down.” So I was, uh, so it made it seem, to me at least, that there was something about that particular advertisement that she [00:25:00] was reacting to, and I wanted to know what that was.Jennie: Well, that's a really great point, and I think if we were to give this writer some guidance- Um, it might be to make more of that.Mm. If the character reacts more to that. Like, in, you know, that she can't hear it or that it's upsets her in a particular way, or she gives us some information or context about that so that we, I don't know, I guess we need to be more grounded in, in what's happening.Barbara: Yeah. And I also just feel like that would give us a little bit more s- because it, that's right there in the title, so it's obviously gonna be important to the story.And so like that would give us a little bit of curiosity about what it is and would propel us to try and understand why she's reacting the way that she is. Um-Jennie: Yeah. And just from a technical [00:26:00] standpoint, I'm looking at this entry, it's almost all dialogue.Barbara: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Which I think is hard on a, an opening page.Uh, don't you? I think-Barbara: I, I do. I, I would really have liked to see a little bit more interiority from Emmy here to kind of, I don't know, understand how she feels, not only about that advertisement, but about, about Seth. Like, did she li- does she like Seth, or is he just like a guy, you know? Um, I just wanted to know a little bit more about how she, who I'm presuming is the protagonist, is experiencing this scene.Jennie: Yeah. Um, yeah, there was even a moment when I thought, “Is she selling sex?” Mm-hmm. Is, is that... Is she a sex worker? Um, you know- True ... so too many questions about what's, what's happening here, which I think could be solved by, um, balancing out the dialogue, um, w- with some other information. [00:27:00] Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I mean, I'm, um, I'm hoping that this character gets a story that we want, we want to read ‘cause I'm intrigued.Barbara: Yeah. Same. Same.Jennie: Yeah. All right. We have one more that we're going to, um, read. Do you wanna read this one? From your little, “Oh, oh, oh,” opening- ... I was like, “Oh, maybe you're a good narrator. I'm not.”Barbara: Sure. Sure. I'll, I'll read it. Um, so this one is called Empty Spaces. Um, it's fiction. I'm not entirely certain who the author is, unless I'm missing that in the spreadsheet.It looks like perhaps it starts with a T. Um, but here, here is the submission. “April 1st, 1995. ‘Please, please, please,' Corey sputtered, gripping the black receiver with both hands while the operator relayed her [00:28:00] request. ‘Person-to-person call for Tess. Will you accept the charges?' ‘No, she's asleep.' Corey knew her mother was at the beige phone on the kitchen wall a thousand miles away.Then her father's voice in the background. ‘Honey, let the girl talk to her dau-...' And dial tone. Corey slammed the receiver back into its cradle. ‘What the f**k?' She missed. Her knuckles scraped the chrome holder, and she unleashed her fury on the edge of the black payphone. ‘F**k, f**k, f*****g f****r.' The rain that had been collecting in the roo- in the rim of the payphone box was shaken loose by her tantrum and cascaded down inside the collar of her flay- flight jacket.Well, Charlie's flight jacket. ‘Skipper,' came Top's quiet baritone from behind her. ‘We're ready to roll.' ‘Thanks, Top.' Corey accepted the styrofoam cup of coffee he handed her, then sloshed her way to the lead truck, Arlo trotting at her heels. She hoisted herself up into the passenger side of the rig. Arlo curled up beside her and dug his head into her lap.Why did her mother have to be such a [00:29:00] little b***h? And on this night. Was it too much to expect her to remember that it was Charlie's birthday? No, Maria remembered. She was the one who kept a file of birthday cards, organized by month and paper clipped to envelopes, neatly stamped and addressed to the recipient.But nobody sends a birthday card to a dead person.” After a few minutes, Top started his status report. “Got word from the 24-hour man. The lot they gave us was too small and underwater. He put up a fuss and got us moved to the football field at the high school.” Corey took a sip. “It'll be nice to have a dry lot.Daisy's got that one nail that looks a little soft.” She fiddled with the radio, settling on a country station, what else was there, and yawned. “Where are we headed tonight?” And that is it.Jennie: Wow, well, author T., uh, Wood, what a treat to have Kathleen Barber read your, read your stuff like that. Gee, you, you sounded amazing.You sounded like you'd written that. That was so cool. Do you- I, uh- ... narrate your own books?Barbara: I, I do not, but I have [00:30:00] small children, and I read aloud every night.Jennie: Do you do the voices?Barbara: Oh, yes, I definitely do the voices.Jennie: Do you do all of them, like, in aBarbara: very- I do all of them.Jennie: You do?Barbara: Yeah, yeah. My, my kids were really into the Wings of Fire series, so I've read all of those books, and there are many, many dragons, and they all have different voices, and if I do not remember the different voice, my children will be like, “Mommy, that's not what Peril sounds like,” and then I'll have to remember and try again,Jennie: so.Take notes? Do you have, do you have a guide? Do you just remember? Um,Barbara: no, I just, I just try and remember.Jennie: Oh,Barbara: my. I should take notes, but I'm not that organized. I just go off.Jennie: That, that's amazing. That's amazing. Um, just while we're talking about it, is there audio already for the new book, for, uh, Sisterhood Above All?Barbara: There, there is. There is, yeah. Um, I recently got, uh, got a peek at it, and I am very, very excited. We have a different [00:31:00] narrator for each of the POV characters, and they are all fantastic. Super excited.Jennie: Amazing. All right, so back to this, back to this work. Um, I thought this was great. Uh, did you, did you, how did you feel reading it?Barbara: I, I, I enjoyed reading it. Um, when, when I was, when I was reading it the first time, I, I found myself getting stopped a few times because I felt like there were a lot of names, and I was confused. Um, you know, it's, it's in- I don't feel like an author needs to spell out for me who every single character is on the first page at all.Um, it just felt like in a small amount of time, there were a lot of names that I felt like I was trying to keep track of, and that was a bit confusing for me. Slowed me down a little bit.Jennie: I agree with that. Actually, the first time that I read it And [00:32:00] admittedly, I was scanning these really fast the first time I read it, but there, there's something to that, how things hit your head.But I thought that, um, I thought Daisy was a horse because I was like the one nail that looks a little soft, like is who, what- Yeah ... where would that matter that we need to be on grass? And, and, and then I was like, “Wait, who even is Daisy?” So I got stuck on that- Yeah ... for sure. And, um, and then the, um, there's a nickname that I think the main...I think Corey, the, the other character calls her Skipper, so I was confused by that. Right. So it, yeah. Yeah. Are those some of the things that you mean?Barbara: Yeah. The, those was... And I was also just a little confused when I first started reading that it starts out with person to person call for Tess, and then we're talking about her mother.And I, I thought at first that her mother was [00:33:00] named Tess, and that, and that the operator was trying to reach her, and that her mother was simply not, simply not wanting to talk even though she was by the phone. But then later on I realized that her mother is actually named Maria, and that Tess must be somebody else.Um, I think Corey's daughter, but I didn't, I didn't catch that on first reading. I had to read it again to be able to understand that.Jennie: Yeah. So there, there is a lot going on for sure. When I said that I thought it was great, I- I'm, I'm hoping that this character's some kind of trucker just because that's cool, and, um, it, it seemed like we have some tension both in whatever's happening around...You know, like, they have a 24-hour man. They're... Uh, so there's something afoot. Like, there's a pr- a project or something afoot that feels like it's not gonna go well or something's gonna [00:34:00] happen there. Um, and I also, you know, now we have the thing with the, well, we learn I think it's the mom. But, um, th- there- Yeahwere enough elements of intrigue, like, what's, what's going on here, what's gonna happen, that I... And I thought it was well-written.Barbara: Yeah. No, and I, one of the things that I really enjoyed was the way, the, the descriptions of what the, what the scenery looks like with the, with like the weather. So like there's, there's the rain, um, there's another line about how when they're like getting into the truck that like the lot is underwater, so I'm kind of like envisioning...I actually don't know what time of day it is, but for some reason I'm envisioning it being a little bit darker, but that might just be because of, of the rain that's happening. Maybe that's what's making me think that it's, it's a little bit darker outside, but I'm like envisioning the, the rain, and they're getting into the rig.But I, I didn't get that she was a truck driver. I, I, I think maybe... But I, but I, [00:35:00] I don't know. I don't know. I thought that maybe she was some sort of- Some sort of, like, news person. But I don't... ‘Cause I don't actually, I don't actually know what a 24-hour man is, so I think that might have... Okay. Yeah. No, I don't know.I was just like... So I, so I didn't know. Um, but I was, I was curious to know... Yeah. I was gonna say, I was curious to know why she was making this call to her mother at this moment, and why she was so desperate for her mother to answer the phone at this moment. Um, so yeah, th- those were, those are questions that I had.Jennie: Usually, back in the day, which this was, um, will you accept the charges was something you did when you had no money.Barbara: Mm-hmm.Jennie: You know, you would call home or wherever and, ‘cause you didn't have money to make a call, so the operator would place the call and ask the [00:36:00] person to accept the charges. Mm-hmm. And normally you would do that with somebody who knows you have, you're having a problem, or, you know.So, like, this is a very particular moment that led me to believe that she didn't, she didn't even have money for a call. So- Mm-hmm ... I don't know why I placed her as a trucker. Like, she climbed into the- Oh, okay ... the rig. She s- she sloshed her way to the lead truck. She's fiddling with the radio station. Like, what, where we headed?Yeah. Like, we're just on a job. I totally made her a truckerBarbara: and I- Yeah. No, no, no. I, well, I think maybe the reason I thought maybe she wasn't was because there were all these other... Because, like, Top is there, and the, it's, it's a lead truck, and she's, she's getting into the passenger side. And there's also a, a, a dog, I assume.I assume Arlo's a dog. I suppose it could be some other sort of animal that's, that's with her, but I, I assume Arlo's a dog. Um- Well,Jennie: so this is actually a really great [00:37:00] conversation for anybody listening, and particularly for this author. You can see that if you confuse your reader They're gonna spend their time with these kinds of questions.Like, is the mother Tess or is it Corey? Is this woman a trucker or not? Is... You know, and those are not the kind of questions you want to be leaving your reader with. Those are-Barbara: Yeah ...Jennie: um, I don't know w- how we would describe them, almost logistics. They're,Barbara: they're more like de- yeah, yeah, exactly. ‘Cause I mean, they're, I, I, I enjoy getting a good question at the start of reading something, you know?Like, you know, I mean, for example, it's, it's really interesting that Corey made what seems to be a collect call, and they didn't just not answer it. They answered it, and then hung up on her, which feels, like, very purposeful. And so, like, I'm very, I'm very curious about that relationship. I'm curious about the fact that, that Charlie is, is dead, um, and [00:38:00] who Charlie is to the, to the narrator.These are things that, like, have piqued my curiosity, and I would like to learn more about, um, would inspire me to read more, to learn more about those things. Uh, but then those other things that we were talking about, like, well, like, who is this? W- what kind of animal is Daisy? Like, what are, where are they actually going?Like, what, what is, what is the goal here? What, what is the deal about the, the lot and the, and the football field? The, w- what are we gonna do here? Those are questions that, that slowed me down, and made me less likely to want to keep reading.Jennie: Yeah. I loved that line, “But nobody sends a birthday card to a dead person.”Barbara: Yeah.Jennie: And I, I'm thinking- Really poignant ... that that's the center of this story, you know, s- who, who was Charlie? I think you said that. Mm-hmm. Was-Barbara: Mm-hmm.Jennie: And ‘cause she's got the jacket.Barbara: Yeah.Jennie: She's got Charlie's jacket, so- That, that'sBarbara: true, and sh- and she's wearing it, I think. [00:39:00]Jennie: Yeah, and, and so- I mean, I suppose Charlie could be a child if this person is older.Barbara: Yeah.Jennie: Like, you know, um, but y- I ... So I had this weird reaction to this, which is I thought it was fun, and maybe that was you reading it. I thought, I thought the writing was great, but I wouldn't turn the page. I'd be frustrated. You know, if, if there was another book or another story that was, um, didn't make me work so hard- Mmto figure out where I was or what was happening, I would choose that over this. So it's a weird combination for me of great job, but it's a no for me.Barbara: Yeah,Jennie: that- What about you?Barbara: That's, that's how I felt. There, there were a lot of elements here that I think are, that are intriguing and that if presented slightly differently would make me want to turn the page.But as, as it is right now, I, I would not. [00:40:00]Jennie: I agree with that. I think it feels close. Mm-hmm. Um, so how could we give this person some direction for, um- Yeah ... well, you talked about all the names, and I don't think the solution is ID all these names.Barbara: Right.Jennie: Mm-hmm. That's gonna be clunky. Or ID all these people. Um-Barbara: Yeah.I, I think for, for me personally, what I think would help was if we were to get a bit more of a peek inside the nar- inside Corey's head, so we could understand from her perspective why it's important that she's making this call, like, what the goal is with the truck. Um, if we just saw it a little bit more from her view and got to know a little bit more of the information that she already holds in her head, I think that would go a long way to making the story feel more accessible to the reader.Jennie: That's really well said, and [00:41:00] hopefully that helps the writer for your next pass to, to think about. But I- there's something, there's something good I think here going on. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I have the same, um, comment that I had earlier. I, I wanna know what kind of story I'm in, and I'm s- and I'm not sure. We were talking about sorting out these relationships and what's happening with the field and the truck and then the weather and all that, but again, is thisThere's no sense of what kind of story this is going to be. And, um, I, I always want a little more. And, and the title is Empty Spaces, which doesn't help, um- Yeah ... point us to that. I hear that. So just a little more, um, of a sense of what world are we? What, what problem do we have? What world are we in? Um, you know, and even just that last bit where the character turns the radio station on and yawns, “Where are we headed [00:42:00] tonight?”It- there's, there's not an urgency of It's, s- nobody's running from anything. There's no- Right ... threat, uh,except for the mom who won't answer the call.Barbara: Yeah, yeah.Jennie: Yeah. Um, so a little, a little more of a sense of what's at stake. Um, I know, we always are asking so much on a first page, but- I know ...Barbara: uh. I know, but e- you know, it's, there are so many things to read, you know, from, like agents, editors, readers, all have so many things to choose from, and so it's just so important to nail that first page, you know?Jennie: How many times do you rewrite your first pages?Barbara: Oh my gosh, so many times. So many times. Yeah. Yeah, well, um, ‘cause usually I write the first page, and then I write the rest of the book, and then I'm like, “Oh, like, the rest of the book does something different. I need to go back and, like, make this first page...”Also, I do, I often do the thing that I think a lot of writers do, which is, [00:43:00] once you've written a little bit further, you realize that, like, you've started at the wrong spot. Um, I mean, the, one of, one of the things that helps me when I, when I think to do it is to use one of the exercises that's in, that's in your work, where you, where you start what, you, you write the beginning and the ending before you even start anything.Um, and I, I, when I remember to do that the right way, that really, definitely helps me. Um, but I don't always remember to do that, and so I have, like, partway in, and then I'm like, “Wait, no, the first page.” So,Jennie: it's- Well, that, yeah, that's a, um, a step in the blueprint for a book book. Um, it's a good one, for sure.Uh, well, thank you so much for joining me for, for this, Kathleen, and congratulations on the new book. Um, for everyone listening, go check out, you can find everything at KathleenBarber.com. And, um, you can find Sisterhood Above All, which is brand new and just out and sounds like so much [00:44:00] fun. I, it's on my TBR, TBR.Yay. I just can't read, I just can't read thrillers at night. I get too scared. So,Barbara: um-Jennie: That'sBarbara: fair. That's fair ...Jennie: I, I have to wait till I'm, like, on a plane or, um, you know, somewhere where I'm reading during the day. Yeah. Is this one, is this one l- scary scary?Barbara: I mean, it's, it's not, like, scary scary. It's, it's not, like, uh- It's, it's not like there's someone who's out there to kill you for reasons that you cannot control.You know what I mean? Like, it's like- Yeah, yeah ... it would be scary to the people inside the book, but it should not be scary to you. ButJennie: I understand how- Well, we don't need to reas- We don't need to reassure me because people love these, love these- Yeah ... and, uh, what a fun, fun setting and setup for- Thank youa thriller. It's, it's exciting. Thanks. So can't wait to see how, how the world receives it. And- Mm ... um, I always hate to say this to somebody whose book just came out, but can't wait to see what you do next. [00:45:00]Barbara: Don't worry, I'm already writingJennie: stuff. Oh, yeah. Do you, ooh, do you wanna, do you wanna tell or no?Barbara: I, I do not, just ‘cause I get really superstitious about it, but, um, but I have something that I'm working on that I'm excited about, so you know, we'll see how it goes.Jennie: I love it. Well, thank you for joining us for Book Life, Jennifer.Barbara: Thanks for having me. That was a lot of fun.Jennie: For our listeners, let's get back to work and finish what matters most.Outro: The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:46:00] work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcomeToday's guest is novelist and essayist Emily J. Smith, author of the debut novel Nothing Serious. After years of writing, rewriting, and more than 100 agent rejections across two novels, Emily finally found the agent who understood her vision—and sold her debut to a Big Five publisher within weeks.In this episode, Emily pulls back the curtain on her long road to publication, including why she abandoned her first novel, what she learned from agent feedback, and how embracing plot and suspense helped her break into publishing without sacrificing her literary ambitions. We get into working with a developmental editor, landing a Big Five deal, advances and rights, the emotional minefield of cover design, and what publishers actually do—and don't do—for debut authors. Emily also shares the realities of funding your own book tour and publicity, building a platform when you hate social media, growing her Substack, and the personalized outreach that helped generate press and word of mouth.Plus, Emily reflects on the widening gap between blockbuster books and smaller deals, why getting a traditional book deal can feel more like a foot in the door than a guarantee of support, and the publishing lesson she wishes she'd learned sooner.Subscribe to Emily's Substack Unresolving. Follow her on Instagram @emjsmith, and buy your copy of Nothing Serious on Bookshop.org, Amazon, or wherever books are sold!Get your copy of Courtney's debut memoir Girl Gone Wild from ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Amazon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.Courtney is teaching some upcoming classes you might be interested in:The Multi-Passionate Writer's Life: https://writingworkshops.com/products/the-multi-passionate-writers-life-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocak12 Months to a Full Memoir in Essays Incubator: Write Your Memoir in a Year: https://writingworkshops.com/products/memoir-in-essays-incubator-nonfiction-writing-workshop-online-june-2026How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminarStart a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminarLand Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminarHow to Make 2027 Your Best Writing Year Yet: Manifest Your Writing Goals Seminar: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-make-2027-your-best-writing-year-yet-manifest-your-writing-goals-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocakSo You Want to Start a Podcast?: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-podcast-workshop-courtney-kocakEdit & Elevate: Revision Intensive: https://writingworkshops.com/products/edit-elevate-revision-intensive-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocak

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit amwriting.substack.comI knew we'd get a huge response to our callout for first page submissions for a BookLab with Jo Piazza and I was right. I zipped through the google doc, skimming (there is a particular art to choosing the right submissions without ruining the freshness for me when I read and respond) and I did brilliantly, if I do say so myself (including a very funny callback to our sudden Dr. Pepper digression). Listen for our constructive takes on these 3 first pages and some excellent advice on the art of the first page in general.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.The first line of Jo's current hit, The Parisian Heist: It's terrible to be rich.Don't you want more?Jo's the creator of Under the Influence (the podcast) and Over the Influence (the Substack) and the national and international bestselling author of The Sicilian Inheritance, Everyone is Lying to You (KJ's fave!), We Are Not Like Them, You Were Always Mine, Charlotte Walsh Likes to Win, The Knockoff (KJ's other fave!) and How to Be Married but most importantly, her current book, The Parisian Heist, is just out and great for readers and writers alike. Ready to submit your first page for consideration for a future episode of BookLab? That's a supporter benefit, link below, below the paywall. #AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.More about The Parisian Heist:Emma, a struggling American artist in Paris, thought she had left her dreams behind when she took a job cleaning for the city's wealthy elite. Then she meets Stella Swanson, the widow of one of the most notorious art dealers in the business. The Swansons move in a world where billionaires, oligarchs, and heads of state pay fortunes for masterpieces. Drawn in by their dazzling wealth and the pull of a dangerously charming grandson, Emma becomes both a player and a pawn in a family battle to protect their empire and conceal its crimes.In the late 1800s, the young widow Jo van Gogh inherits hundreds of paintings from her brother-in-law Vincent that the art world deems worthless. Determined to prove their genius, and to secure a future for herself and her young son, she becomes consumed by Vincent's legacy. As her devotion deepens, a vanished painting and a thwarted love affair leave her unsure who she can trust and how much of herself she's willing to lose in the process.From glittering auction houses to the idyllic canals of Amsterdam and the grand museums of Paris, the lives of these two women converge as Emma uncovers the Swanson family's darkest secrets and agrees to mastermind a daring heist inside the Musée d'Orsay. The stakes have never been higher, and these women refuse to be written out of history, no matter the cost.

On the #amwriting podcast's Margin Notes, host Jennie Nash talks with Caroline Bicks, Stephen E. King Chair in Literature at the University of Maine and co-host of the Everyday Shakespeare podcast, about her book Monsters in the Archives: A Year of Fear with Stephen King. Bicks describes how she became the first invited into King's Bangor archives after King called to meet her, and how her sabbatical became a year of researching five formative works (including Carrie, Night Shift, The Shining, Salem's Lot, and Pet Sematary) to understand how horror language creates lasting fear. She explains choosing a first-person narrative that blends literary criticism, archival discovery, and her own anxiety, including eerie moments in the archive and insights into King's word-level edits, literary influences, and Shakespearean foundations, especially The Shining's ties to Hamlet.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Read the Book* Monsters in the Archives by Caroline BicksTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Welcome, everyone. This is Margin Notes, the part of the podcast where we're talking about the big decisions writers face in their work and creative lives.I'm here today with a super special guest. I'm so excited to speak with Caroline Bicks. She is the Stephen E. King Chair in Literature at the University of Maine, where she teaches courses in Shakespeare, early modern culture, and horror fiction. And she's the author of all kinds of very cool books ... about Shakespeare, including one on cocktails.Um, and, uh, is the co-host of the Everyday Shakespeare podcast, and we are here today to talk with her about her new book called [00:01:00] Monsters in the Archives: A Year of Fear with Stephen King. Welcome.Caroline: Thank you. Thanks for having me.Jennie: So this is gonna be the strangest interview you've probably ever done. ICaroline: don't know.Because- I've talked to a lot of people around the world about this Stephen King book.Jennie: I couldn't read your book. I, I couldn't read it. I can't read horror. Yeah. Which listeners of this podcast are gonna laugh about, ‘cause I'm actually coaching someone live and they're writing gothic horror, and they're probably like, “All you talk about is horror, Jennie.”But, um, it's actually the reason why I wanted to talk to you, because you made a decision in the writing of this book that I thought was super cool. Mm. Which was you put yourself in it.Caroline: Yeah.Jennie: And you're a scholar.Caroline: Yeah.Jennie: And you've written scholarly books, and you approach this with a scholarly perspective, but you, you really put yourself in it.And, and so [00:02:00] I was reading it for that part of the story and I had to skip over huge chunks of, of the, of the work. Because what you're doing in this book is you're getting at this question of- W- what, what is scary in writing? Like, how does it actually work? How does it act- what is the magic or the function that makes us feel this thing?And you actually feel it yourself while you're going through it, and I found it quite terrifying actually. So, um, that's kinda what I wanted to talk about is how did you make the decision? Well, first of all, you were the first person, I wanna make sure I get this right, ‘cause this is very cool. Yeah. You were the first person who was invited to the archives, the Stephen King archives.Caroline: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a bit of a story, so I won't spend too much time on it, but just the mo- Oh, no, do. It's good ... when I ch- when I took this position... So I've been a Shakespeare professor my whole adult life, ba- as soon as I graduated from grad school in the late ‘90s, [00:03:00] and I was at Boston College for 15 years.I took this position at University of Maine nine years ago as a Shakespearean. Um, so it is an endowed chair in Stephen King's name because he's our most famous alum. So when I took the position, I, it was because I'm a Shakespearean, not because I'm a horror specialist. Um, I had always been a Stephen King fan since I read him when I was 12, and he scared the beje- Jesus out of me, um, with The Boogeyman story.Jennie: Right.Caroline: Um, so when I took this position though I was told, “You're never gonna meet Stephen King. Don't even make contact with him.” I'm like, “Fine, you know, this is still a great job. I'm excited.” Um- ThanksJennie: for the money. Yeah.Caroline: Thanks for... You know, no, it's a wonderful fund. It was funded by the Harold Alfond Foundation, and it's to support the public humanities, which is an incredible mission.So, um, I get to give money away to people. You know, it's a great, great position, but I was not a horror specialist. And particu- a- and as an adult, I actually wasn't reading horror because it scares me too much. You know? Yeah, yeah. Um, but it had grabbed me when I was a teenager. So it was about four years into the [00:04:00] job when I got a call at home from Stephen King, which just, uh, uh, my jaw hit the floor.And he said, “You know, I think it's time we meet.” I'm like, you know, I, I really fan-girled because I really, I have so much admiration for him and respect. Um, I invited him to come talk to our students. He was brilliant, generous, funny, kind, and I felt so at ease that I felt like I could ask... You know, and I got to know him professionally.We had a good professional relationship that developed from there. When I had a sabbatical year coming up the next year- I could have written another Shakespeare book. I had another one in my head. I've written a bunch of them but I knew that he and Tabitha had just collected all of his manuscripts and put them in a climate-controlled space attached to their home in Bangor, and I thought, “You know, this is an incredible opportunity.I would love to dig in there and be the first one in there, and just read those early drafts of the books that scared me so much when I was a teenager, and try to just explore why. Why were they sticking in my head still?” Um, again, I am not a specialist in... I'm not a cognitive scientist. I'm not a [00:05:00] specialist in horror literature, but I'm obviously highly trained in how to do literary analysis and how to do archival work, not Shakespeare, because we don't have any of his works, but, you know, I, I understand what that process is.So back to your question about why I wanted to bring myself into it, which was, you know, I had been experimenting with first-person storytelling after I got tenure. You know, ‘cause it's a long process, Kate. Right. And most of my writing had been academic writing, but I really had always loved storytelling And I got a piece into the Modern Love column.I started to have some success with publishing my first-person stories, and I was like, “You know, I love this.” So when I had this opportunity to go into his archives, they generously said yes, was amazing. I thought, “You know, I really wanna tell this story. I don't wanna write an academic book. I want this to be the story of a literature scholar, but really the story about a scared kid.”Jennie: Yeah.Caroline: You know, you, you never lose that scare, you know, I don't... This is the thing. Fear has stuck with me with those stories [00:06:00] for 40 years. So I was fascinated, and I just wanted to understand how he had crafted the language so that it was sticking in my head still. Because when I was talking to people around, you know, whenever you mention Stephen King to people, you know, if they've read him, they remember specific lines and specific words, and I was like, “That's an extraordinary, um, 50 years on to have that power.”So, um- Well- Anyway. Yeah. Go ahead. I, I could talk about this forever, so you tell me- Oh, no, it's- ... where you wanted to pick up from this.Jennie: It's so good. Well, I have to tell you this funny anecdote, which is that my college roommate was from Bangor, Maine, and babysat his kids in that house.Caroline: Oh, that's insane.Jennie: So when I went to visit her, she drove me by that house.There you go. And I was like, “Oh, hell no- Yeah ... would I ever babysit in that house.” Like, it's-Caroline: It's ‘cause it's like a gothic, it's like straight out of Haunting of Hill House ...Jennie: actually, and like these spiderweb gates that, and you describe that in the [00:07:00] book and, and the- Yeah ... archives are in that house. They'reCaroline: in the house.They're attached to the back. I know. And it, it was so, it was, it was insane. It was like a full-on 360 experience writing this book. Um, and I, I knew, like, so I did the research for a year. I didn't even know if this would be a book. I just knew I wanted to have the opportunity to be in there because it, I knew it was a great opportunity, and I was so curious, you know?Yeah. So I, I came out of the year with just tons of notes and observations, but I didn't have a book, you know? Yeah. And then I started experimenting with writing a chapter, and I just, the storytelling just came forward and then when I got an agent and she, you know, s- I, I, I was able to get a contract based on a proposal and that one chapter I had written and I was really fortunate to have a fabulous editor, David Ebershoff, at Hogarth, who is just such a wonderful writer himself, and he really encouraged me to bring my voice in and bring my story in even [00:08:00] more.Um, so that's- And- ... that's the story of that.Jennie: Was it hard for you as a scholar to do that?Caroline: You know what? It was so freeing and so fun that it actually wasn't, you know? Because I, I knew this wasn't going to be an academic book, so once I let go of that- Yeah ... um, I was like, wow, I have the, and yet I have this skill set I can bring forward, and I knew that's what would make this unique.Um, but I can combine my two favorite ways of writing, ‘cause I do actually love writing literary criticism. Like it's, I get a thrill out of it. I wouldn't be doing it this long if I didn't get a thrill out of it, but I also love telling my own stories and drawing a reader in. And so for me it was like just a circus carnival.Like it was so fun to be able to do it. Once I had the permission and I had a contract, I was like, fine, you know? I, I, who am I writing this book for? I'm writing it for me, you know? Like this is just something I wanna do because I'm so passionate [00:09:00] about it and I, and I love Stephen King. And, um, once I got into it that way and wasn't thinking about who's gonna criticize me for this, like how will academics view this, I was like, I don't care.I just don't care. I know I've got a great story to tell that people are gonna love to read because there's so many people that love not just Stephen King, but people who love reading about how great books get written, you know? Yeah. And so that was the audience I had in my mind when I, when I was crafting it.It was really, in my mind, anybody who cares about books and writing. It doesn't have to be... So when you say, you're not the first person who's said to me, “I can't read your book,” or, “I can't read-” Oh, I'm so glad. “... Stephen King books,” you know, and I'm like, “That's okay. You can skip, you know, the parts that really scare you,” because there's plenty about just like that first chapter I wrote about Pet Sematary, just his sticky notes back and forth with his copy editor, which is so fun I think.You know, it's just like, wow.Jennie: Totally. Yeah. But the thing that you do is you- Allow yourself to confront that fear-Caroline: Yeah ...Jennie: [00:10:00] that, that I feel that the people can't, that can't read horror feel. You know, anybody that even allows themselves to be scared feels. And-Caroline: Yeah ...Jennie: and you, you do some very specific things, um, which I, I found fascinating, including tracking down on eBay the original copy of that book you read as a- Yeah, I wanted-as a teenager.Caroline: Yeah, that was part of the process for me, was I wanted to make sure I was reading... So before I would go into the archives for each work, and I'd spent like two... I only picked five, because I wanted to... First of all, I knew I wanted to make this personal. Um, and those were the five that scared me the most when I was a teenager.So I grew up in the ‘70s and the ‘80s as a teenager, so for me, it was in real time when the books were coming out practically. So it was- Yeah ... Carrie, Night Shift, The Shining, Salem's Lot, Pet Sematary. Um, I'm forgetting one of course. Uh, but I went -Jennie: The other one.Caroline: The other one. Had a huge impact on me. [00:11:00] So it was those five, and I, I knew those were the ones I was gonna do a deep dive into, and that I wanted to really re-engage with, and bring my whole self to.So I wanted to find the copies that I had read in the ‘70s and the early ‘80s. And fortunately, it's pretty easy to find them. Uh, so yeah, but eBay sometimes I had to go on, or go into a used bookstore and, you know, find the like actual 1979 paperback, you know.Jennie: Um- I mean, that- Um ... I just, there's some, there's so much to say about that because-Caroline: YeahJennie: like, I just, um- We, we just had a new bookcase built, um, which is something I've wanted to do well for eight years in this house. But it's a thing I've always wanted to have, which is like a grand bookcase, and it just was finished last week, and we had all the books packed up in storage, and we brought all the books back.Then we went through this discernment process of what goes [00:12:00] on those shelves. And I, you know, I had all those books from when I was a kid, even when I was a kid-kid, and they're yellow, and moldy and falling apart, and the covers aren't on, and they're taped and-Caroline: Yeah ...Jennie: eh, but I cannot let them go-Caroline: Yeah ...Jennie: because those...that was the object.Caroline: That's the object. This is what I feel sad for kids now, because they're not gonna have those same memories, um, of books. Yes. You know? And I don't think they stick in your head the same way if you don't have the full sensory embodied experience with a book.Jennie: Right. You know? Even when you open...I read on Kindle, which I love for so many reasons. Yeah. But you don't even see the cover.Caroline: You don't see the cover, right. And for me, it's so much. Like, I remember going to the Scholastic Book Fair and being like- Yes ... “I'm getting Summer of My German S- Soldier because Christy McNichol's on the cover,” you know?Yes. Yes. So yeah, that was part of the journey for me was I did wanna just [00:13:00] reconnect with those books again, try to h- and as much as you can, you know, reexperience the feelings of f- like The Shining, I actually... the only one I still have from 1977 is the actual Shining that I read. Um, and that's, for me, that woman in room 217.Well, I know you haven't read it ‘cause you're probably... What? But, um, it, that particular one I still have from, from when I was growing up. Um, and I love that I still have it, and it still has the photo... You know, it's the version that has the photo inserts that includes the Kubrick film photos. Oh, okay.Jennie: Okay.Yeah, yeah.Caroline: And I read it before I saw the film, so I remember being- 15 reading it and then seeing the pictures and being like you know? And that's part of the experience, but it wasn't, it's different than seeing the film, you know? And I really, I wanted to write this book as a love letter to language and to books, and not to film.Like, there's, that's a whole other category I think that enters people's brains in totally different ways. It's a very different experience. For me it's about, like going back to your original question [00:14:00] about like why, why, why do stories cause fear, and like what's the value perhaps in that? Yeah. That was something I came to after this long journey really, and talking to people and thinking about why.And also by understanding and reading more about Stephen King's books and talking to him about them, and realizing for him how much these stories are rooted in personal experiences or fears of grief and loss. And- Yes ... that was really profound for me. And like The Night Shift, which is the ur-text that I start with, ‘cause that's the one I read when I was 12, and that's his first collection of short stories.It came out in 1978. It's 20 short stories. But he ends it with a story about his mother dying, and it's, I mean, it's thinly veiled autobiography. It's about a man who's watching his mother die in the hospital. Um, but it's clearly a mirror of his own experience losing his mother when he was 26. And I'm like, wow, what's that doing in a collection of horror stories?[00:15:00] And it's like, what? ‘Cause that is of course, at least for me and I think for a lot of people, that's the core fear we first have, is that where's mommy, right? Yeah. Right? You lose the person who's in charge of taking care of you, and if you're lucky, does it well and with care. Um, but even if it's not, like Carrie, you know, the more I was looking through the Carrie drafts, I was like, right, he's really homing in on Carrie calling out for her mother even though her mother's terrible and abusive to her, right?So it's, there's just this, I don't know. It's a long way around to say I think horror, and he writes about this really eloquently, is a way for us to metabolize our deepest fears. Um, and to look at trauma not head-on but sideways. Um, and he writes about that, um, a number of different places in a really powerful way.He's just such an extraordinary human. You know, he's been thinking about this and for so long.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. So, so your willingness to [00:16:00] confront that, those particular fear, fears in your own self and on behalf of the reader, really puts you in it. I mean, like you, there's a really lovely moment where you are reading I think it's, I think it's Pet Sematary, reading the actual book, and you have to turn it over so you- Yeahdon't see, like on your nightstand so you don't see the cover. I'mCaroline: scared, I'm scared of the cover, right, still.Jennie: Yeah.Caroline: Yeah.Jennie: And then there's moments, se- several where you're driving And you're sort of holding your breath while you drive past a place that he writes about or, or- Mm-hmm ... you know, um, well you have to tell the story, I'm sure every interviewer asks you about the, um, the doorknob in the archive.You have to, like, I was-Caroline: Yeah, not too many people have asked me about that, but I'm like, that to me was the scary moment-Jennie: Wait, shut up ... the most, theCaroline: most sturdy. I'm like, wh- uh, why did that happen? But of course, I mean, there's a reason why it happened. It's, it's, it [00:17:00] automatically locks if, you know, the, if you- Okaydon't lock it So let's, let's play- So but it just happened that we were inside the archive room. It was me and, and Julie Ugli, who is their assistant, who was helping me through this whole process. And I know, and I was, like, literally holding the first page of the first draft of The Boogeyman, the story that had scared me so badly when I was 12, about a monster that comes out of closets, and we're like in this room.And the, the archive room, it actually, it almost feels like a closet. It's not huge at all. You know, it's just-Jennie: Yeah ...Caroline: top to bottom, ceiling to floor stacked shelving with, you know, boxes of materials. And yeah, and we were in there, and I'm holding the first page, and the lock closes on its own. It just goes...And I'm like, I'm looking at Julie, I'm like, “What is, what's happening?” We don't have our cell phones with us. I'm like, “Are we stuck in here? Like, what's gonna happen?”Jennie: In the scary archive- In this, I was terrified ... in the back of the scary house. Like-Caroline: I know, I know. It was like, you can't make this stuff up.That's why I was like, I [00:18:00] couldn't wait, when I finally got a chance to write the book and sit down and write, I was like, I can't wait to tell these stories, because they just... I, I'm not a fiction writer. Like, I, I have such mad respect for- I don't know about that ... well, I've m- We'll see I don't know. I have mad respect for people who can write fiction.For me, I only can write what I know and exper- So I'm like, ah. But these stories were just so amazing. Or like when I was reading The Shining, like the first draft of The Shining, which is crazy. I mean, it's so different from the published version. And like getting to the woman in room 217, and like reading th- and literally my head w- like I thought I was having a stroke.Like it was like, like... And it's like, and then I find an interview where Stephen King writes about how he was scared to go back to that scene when he was revising it, the book, because he was dreading it. And I was like, oh, my God, have I just like had some kind of telepathic experience with Stephen King?Like- Right ... across time, space, and yeah, it was amazing.Jennie: Well, yeah. I mean, [00:19:00] it's just, um, uh, I actually made myself go through the whole book skipping giant chunks.Caroline: I feel so badly I put you through this.Jennie: I know. I, I feel like why, I kept saying, “Why? Why did I think this was a good idea?” Um, and it- I mean, even just tangentially, I, I don't know.It's interesting. I have, I'm sure you have this too, anybody who reads a lot or spends a lot of time with words, you have a capacity to sort of pay half attention, if that makes sense.Caroline: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Um, like you c- could sort of look at it without letting it all the way in. Yeah. But I, I just was, I just was riveted by the thread of, of your story and your putting yourself through that as a scholar and a human.But, but then some really cool things happen, and I, and I have flagged, um... Do you, [00:20:00] w- would you mind reading a tiny piece? It's- No, not at all ... it's on page 82, and it's the p- the paragraph that starts, “These manuscripts.”Caroline: Yeah.Jennie: That would be amazing.Caroline: Absolutely. So this is actually the moment I just described to you, where my head was like, I got...Oh, actually, I had just discovered the last 150 pages of the original Shining manuscript in a random folder in the archives, and I was like, “What is this doing here?” And I was getting obsessive about the manuscripts at this point, clearly- Yeah. Yeah ... just like the main character in The Shining, Jack Torrance, who gets obsessed with the manu- with the papers in the basement of the Overlook Hotel.But here we go. “These manuscripts are definitely getting into my head, and not just its rational part. In his memoir, when King describes books as being a uniquely portable magic, he doesn't specify what kind of magic. What if manuscripts can absorb and store more than just ink and words? [00:21:00] What if their pages can pass on dark energy along with dark stories?Ghosts have more than one way of making sure their stories are heard, of ensuring that the past is not forgotten, but rather pressed into our minds, even if we wrench our heads off the pillow and refuse to listen.” And that last is a reference to my, I used to see a ghost when I was five, and I write about that in the book too.Jennie: I mean, when I read that, I was like, “That's, that's me.” Like, these ghosts and horrors are pressing themselves into my mind, and I'm refusing to listen, and they still, they still do. And, um, King's stories in particular are so iconic, you can't really escape them. Like, you, you know the scenarios, you know the characters, you know-Caroline: YeahJennie: you know. And, and so it was interesting for me reading this book that that described my [00:22:00] experience where I was both repelled and magnetized at the same time.Caroline: That's beautiful the way you just put that. I mean, I think that is exactly our relationship also, of course, to our own fears. You know, again, what makes these stories endure, and I didn't go into this book thinking like, “This is a book about promoting Stephen King,” and, you know- Rightlike, I don't work for Stephen King. I just want to put that out there. Right. He, you know, he graciously agreed to let me go into the archives. He's been very generous about answering all my questions I had about the manuscripts, but he never at any point was like, “You can't say this,” or, “This is how you're supposed to say this.”So, but what I came away with after this process was exactly what you're describing, why we need these stories, why they endure, actually, is because they tap into our very real human fears. It's not about the monsters. It's about the grief and loss that's coming for all of us if we live long enough, you know?So you, and you have to at some point confront that, you know? So if it's- Yeah ... you can [00:23:00] try to run away from it, but it's coming, and that's part of being human. That's the human experience, obviously. Not to be glib, but it's like-Jennie: Yeah ...Caroline: you will experience loss. You will experience grief. And if these stories help you metabolize that or have a cathartic experience with that feeling without having to actually experience your worst fear, right?Um, like Aristotle says, it's cathartic, right? It's you watch a play, a, a tragedy because you experience a catharsis.Jennie: And did you, did you get to that in your own process?Caroline: That's a really good question. Um- You know, I, I think I became more aware of it. You know, I am, you know, and I write about this very openly in the book, that I was an extremely anxious little kid, um, which is part of why I think the boogeyman triggered me in the particular way it did, you know.Um, and that I grew into a pretty [00:24:00] anxious adult, you know? Yeah. I think anxiety is one of those things that, you know, I... Again, I was born in the ‘60s, so we didn't have this language for this back then. Like, my parents wouldn't have known to call me an anxious child, you know? Right. They probably would've said, “Oh, she's shy,” or, “She's whatever.”Um, so I think I, you know, like, and I as an adult, I think I've, I've found ways to manage it pretty well, but I am definitely a control freak. Like, that's part of how I manage it. I shouldn't use that language, but you know, it's like I, I like to just control what I can control, and that makes me feel that I can put the anxiety at bay.So I will say I think it's been interesting for me, Nick, now when I have those moments that are my worst fear moments that sometimes still will creep up on me just even though when I think I've figured it out, like doom s- doom scenarios. I tend to go to doom scenarios. So, like, if I can't reach... Uh, I will say Life360 has been, like, the best invention on the planet for me-with my two kids [00:25:00] and my husband. I'm like, “I know exactly where everyone is.” Yeah. It has saved me a lot of worry. Sometimes Life360 doesn't work, or sometimes a person still doesn't answer the phone, and then I have to manage my anxie- And then it's like... So I will say it's been interesting going through this process and having to confront or revisit the core of what scares me and, like, why that impacts, you know, why certain moments come forward for me still.So I think, yeah, I think it has helped me to a degree. Like, I can recognize it more clearly now. I'm like, “Oh, right, that's why I'm scared of that,” you know? Um-Jennie: That's so cool.Caroline: Yeah.Jennie: And it feels like that's the, the, um, the transformation in the book is you're exploring how that actually works and the language and the stories.Mm-hmm. But you're, you're also exploring how it works in your own self, how it did when you were young, how it does now- Yeah ... these moments when you're scared. So it- Mm-hmm ... there's such [00:26:00] a depth to it and, I mean, I just, uh, even in my half reading of it, I just loved it. Thank you. And, um, there's something that happens That's kind of crazy, which is, so you're a Shakespeare scholarCaroline: Mm-hmmJennie: And I ha- I, I know from reading Steve, a- about Stephen King, from reading his book On Writing, of course, and, um, interviews and such that, uh, I'm, I'm probably gonna say this in a disrespectful way, and I don't mean it to be so, but the, the easiest way I can describe it is that he's always had sort of a chip on his shoulder that he's just a popular writer and not taken seriously in a literary way.Mm. I don't know if that's, if that is fair to say, but that's how I'm saying it. Uh,Caroline: yeah.Jennie: And, um, what, what I found incredible was that [00:27:00] here comes this Shakespeare scholar into his archives doing proper scholarly archiver, arch- archival work, and there's this moment when you begin to see Shakespearean themes in his, in his work, and you can't ignore it, and particularly in, in Carrie and- Yeahparticularly around exactly the thing you were wrestling with, which is like a young girl's- I don't know, sense of, of not being fitting in the world or, um-Caroline: Yeah ...Jennie: right? And so that, um, there's, on page, since you have the book in your hand, um, I think it's pageCaroline: 202. Mm-hmm.Jennie: And it refers back to that passage you just read about portable magic.It's the one that's I remembered.Caroline: [00:28:00] Right. Okay. So this is going back to when I first was, um, I was in the final round of the job for the Stephen E. King Chair in Literature, and I was working on a book about Shakespeare's, the girls in Shakespeare's plays and world and teenage girls and their cognition.Like, the how were people during Shakespeare's day thinking about girls' brains? Yeah. So I'd been working on this for 10 years. Um, and then I was getting ready to give my job talk. This was the first time Stephen King and Shakespeare came together for me, and it was getting ready, and this, again, this is an authentic story, like write what you know.So I was getting ready for the job talk. I remembered that King's 1974 novel, Carrie, featured a 16-year-old girl whose telekinetic powers are unleashed when she gets her first period in the school shower. I started rereading it, and within a few pages came across an uncanny phrase. When she's walking home after being dismissed early, Carrie feels her brain flexing in a new way, [00:29:00] as if her powers have been waiting below the surface for her to reach, quote, “mental puberty.”I couldn't have wordsmithed this dynamic cognitive change better myself. In the last part of my job talk, I used the phrase to connect the brain work of Juliet Capulet, who's described as being two weeks away from seeing the change of 14 years, to Carrie's newly activated adolescent mind. It felt like a moment of pure portable magic between Stephen King, Shakespeare, and me.Jennie: Ugh, so beautiful.Caroline: Oh, thank you. Yeah. I mean, that was just so gobsmacking. Like, when that happened, I was like, I ca- I can't believe it, but yeah.Jennie: And then, now I may be getting some of the things wrong here, but then you- You realize, is it Carrie that, that you realize he was, you thought he was emulating a play, a Shakespeare play?Caroline: I think you're thinking of Shining. I mean, definitely at the end of the Carrie [00:30:00] chapter I return to, I did notice echoes of Macbeth, and I was convinced that that must have been what he was thinking about. And, and what's funny is, so one of the conversations I got to have with him, I mean, he's so generous with his time, one of my last conversations with him was about the end of Carrie, and that's a book that he actually doesn't like very much.You know, it was his first published novel, he was 26, and he's like, “I think that was written by a young man who thought he knew more than he did.” So he's, it's not a book that he goes back to. He recognizes it's important, and it's important to him, but, ‘cause it started his whole career, his whole trajectory.Um, but he didn't particularly, he hasn't returned to it. Yeah. So that was a fun chance for me to sort of talk to him and say, “Hey, you know what? I think you should maybe go back,” ‘cause it's it's, there's a lot of Shakespeare in there. Anyway, but the Shining chapter, what was fascinating, so there's this first draft, which I, I write a lot about, called The Shine, that's in the archives, with a totally different ending.Um, and when I looked at it, [00:31:00] he'd also divided it into acts and scenes, like Roman numeral acts and little- Mm ... Roman numeral scenes. And I was like, “This, what is this? This is like a Shakespeare play.” Like, that's what it looked like. And then sure enough, I found out he was imagining, he was thinking of a Shakespeare tragedy when he wrote The Shining.And that was the first moment where I was like, “What? This is insane.” Like, this- Yeah ... like, ob- obviously that became, for me, the story I wanted to tell about that particular set of manuscripts, was sort of uncovering, like, what's the Shakespeare play? Like, what's the tragedy? And I didn't wanna ask him because I didn't want- I wanted to go in with my mind clear, like, of any outside influence.I just wanted to see what my Shakespeare brain, because I'm so embedded in Shakespeare. I also have a Shakespeare podcast I do with my best friend. Like, we're, I'm always thinking about Shakespeare and how it relates to everyday life. You know, and so I'm like, “Well, how does it relate to The Shining?” Which is, like, an ur-American text.Like, this, like, say what you want about horror, [00:32:00] like- I'd be shocked if people don't know what The Shining's about, even if they haven't read it even if they haven't seen the film. Like, you probably know something about The Shining, right? Right. So I was like, if there's a Shakespeare tragedy at the foundation of this, you know.And here's the thing about Stephen King that I came to learn, again, reading all of his notes and finding these edits, and I did find traces of Macbeth in the first draft of The Shine, um, that he ended up taking out. So I was like, “Oh, is it Macbeth? It feels like it could be Macbeth.” There's so many things it has in common with it, with hallucinations and with baby bashing.And, you know, all of these horrible things that are in Macbeth are certainly in that book. Um, but I really wanted to go in, like, just on an adventure, like, see what I saw. So I didn't ask him which chi- tragedy until I was fully done with all my research and I felt like I had it all done. And that's when he drops that he was thinking of Hamlet.And once he said that, of course, it became so ... I mean, I [00:33:00] had seen traces, there were references to Ophelia that also didn't make it into the final published draft. So you wouldn't know this. This is the beauty of archival work, like you're gonna see things that other people will never know about unless you tell the story.That's why I felt so passionate about this. Like, “I need to tell people-” Yeah ... “that Ophelia was in the first draft, that he was thinking of Ophelia.” ‘Cause of course, you know, again, even if you don't know The Shining, the woman in the tub, the woman in the bathtub, like a drowned woman in a tub, like ah, Ophelia.Yeah. Like Ophelia's another one of those ur, like she's so, she's such a part of our cultural air, right? I mean, like no matter what country you're in. Right. There's a reason Taylor Swift has a whole, you know, song The Fate of Ophelia. Like people know what that means. Um, so I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is, this is incredible.This is even deeper than I thought it was gonna be.” Um, but also it made me appreciate how much that book is about intergenerational trauma. Um, and it's not ... So he doesn't like the Kubrick film [00:34:00] for reasons that, you know, a couple different reasons. One is that it flattens out the character of Jack Torrance, and Jack Torrance is an abused child himself, and he passes on that abuse to his son, Danny, right?Um, but you wouldn't know that from Kubrick's film. While Hamlet, of course, is about a father's ghost coming forward. Like, “The past is a ghost,” King writes, which is so f- powerful, right? Um, here's this ghost saying, “You need to kill for me.”Jennie: Yeah.Caroline: Yeah. And that's what happens to Jack. Yeah, so anyway, that's a long way to say that wasEach chapter was my favorite in different ways, but that one I loved being able to do the deep Shakespeare dive.Jennie: And was that ... You know, so I started that question by saying I, I had heard or understood or maybe inferred that, um, you know, King himself had this sort of desire- Okay ... to be taken more seriously.Was that, that must have been, I don't know, powerful for both you and him, uh, to [00:35:00] come to that? Not like, “Oh, you're the only person that's ever made him feel that way” or-Caroline: Yeah,Jennie: no,Caroline: I agree ... or agree with that, but. Like I, yeah. And, um, I mean, I will say I think part of the reason he was always really ... I mean, first of all, he's just so generous, and any writer who's ever worked with him has the same experience.Like he just gives his time. He just loves writing and writers so much that he will just, he'll just t- like any email I would send him, he'd write back in like an hour with a response. The part about how he feels about academia, you know, and I never directly asked him that because I didn't wanna ... You know, if he wanted to bring it up, great.But I think- Yeah ... my, after going on this journey with him, he clearly loves talking about- literature. He's the most well-read person I've ever met. I'm just gonna say that hands down. Like, the guy reads- Really? ... cons- constantly and if you read his early works, like even when he was 17, he wrote The Long Walk, okay, which just came out as a film, [00:36:00] and in that, he's citing T.S.Eliot, he's cit- he's citing Poe at 17. Okay? So he's, he, he, this, he comes by this honestly. He's not just trying to seem smart. Like, he literally is constantly reading and it's clear when you read his manuscripts or when you read his published books, he's making references to all, whether it's Shirley Jackson or Wallace Stevens or, you know, uh, he's so capacious in his knowledge of literature.And, like, just a couple months ago, he sent me an email, I don't, I can't remember, we were talking about something about Salem's Lot, and he was like, “Yeah, when I was writing Salem's Lot,” which again, this is 1975 when he's writing Salem's Lot, so that's a long time ago. He's like, “I was really into James Dickey's poetry.”Jennie: Whoa.Caroline: You know, who was an American no, you know, poet laureate. Uh, he's like, “And I was reading everything I could read of, of his and then I read Deliverance, and then I went back to his poetry, and that really impacted how I wrote the chapters [00:37:00] about the Lot,” which if you've read Salem's Lot, has some very lyrical, poetic chapters about the town, like, “The town knew about darkness.The town had its secrets and knew how to kept it.” And then he, like, sends me the entire poem that he was thinking about that James Dickey wrote. So I mean, it's, he's, and it's not performative. He's not, like, he has nothing. He doesn't need to prove anything to me, you know?Jennie: Right, to anyone, yeah.Caroline: He just literally loves, he loves literature.Like, this guy, he loves poetry. I mean, he actually writes poetry. He wrote poetry as an undergraduate. Uh, it was actually the core start for him of The Stand, was a poem he wrote called The Dark Man one day when he was, like, hungover in the school, like, cafeteria. Like, so it's like he, he's been thinking about literature and living with literature and, uh, since he was a teenager, if not earlier.His mom brought him, uh, Bram Stoker out of the public library when he was nine, so I mean, the guy- Whoa ... ‘cause he asked for it. He asked for Dracula. [00:38:00] I wasn't reading Dracula when I was nine. Were you? I mean-Jennie: No,Caroline: no. I was reading Little House on the Prairie. I mean-Jennie: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Wow. Wow. So- I mean, this book, again, it's called Monsters in the Archives: My Year of Fear with Stephen King by Carolyn Bicks.It's just incredible, whether you're a King fan, whether you're a horror fan, um, but for sure for all writers, which are all our listeners. If you can, if you can bear it.It's very specific, um, a very specific- specific exploration of, of how good writing works really. Yeah. Right. And, and how you... You know, there's always that perennial question of how do you get emotion on the page? How do you make your reader feel something? And you, you show it very specifically, and I wanted so badly [00:39:00] to, to get into the details, and I, and I, I just, I just couldn't.Um, maybe someday, but, um, I just, I just can't recommend it enough for, for, um, this audience and, um, you know, anyone who's interested in any of these things we've talked about.Caroline: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And I will say, like, the Pet Sematary chapter, which is the first one, that was the first day I was in the archives.One of the things I discovered about him day one was how much attention he pays to word sounds. So I think for any writer interested in sort of doing a deep dive into, like, how one word change, right- Yeah ... can make a difference, you know? Yeah. And I didn't appreciate that about his writing until I went in there and saw his notes to the copy editor where he's like, “Nope, the word's clitter, not clatter.This is why.” You know? Like,Jennie: he's- There's a, um- Yeah ... yeah, there's a book I love, it's probably right behind me, um, called The Artful Edit by Susan Bell, in which she [00:40:00] shows examples of that kind of very careful change in, um, The Gre- The Great Gatsby and The English Patient and various works of, of literature, and your, your whole book is like that.It's, it's just amazing. Um- Thank you ... so is the next book gonna be the Shakespeare one you had thought of before? Or are you gonna- ... go in the, in the personal direction?Caroline: You know, it's such a good question. I think right now I'm just taking a break, you know, because I'm the kind... Like, I immerse myself in a project, and this has been so all-consuming.Um, and I'm back to doing my Everyday Shakespeare podcast, which I love and I missed. Um, so I'm doing that. And I, I really don't like to think too far ahead about what I'm going to write. I like to have it come organically.Jennie: Yeah.Caroline: Um, so I could go back into the archives. I could write another one of these kinds of books, but I don't know if that's the [00:41:00] right thing for me right now.Jennie: Yeah.Caroline: Um, I want to make sure whatever I write next- You know, I loved writing this book so much. It's my favorite... I mean, it's, it was such a powerful experience for me, um, because I could bring my personal experiences into it and my scholarly self into it. I don't... You know, it's gonna be hard to recreate that.Yeah. I think it can be done, but I don't wanna force it. Yeah. So I'm gonna wait and see what the next, what the next oneJennie: is. Don't you, don't you love the interviewer who's like, “Hey, congratulations. You wrote a book. What, what's your nextCaroline: one?” What are you working on now? What are you doing now? I know. And I get that.I'm like-Jennie: So mean ...Caroline: I'm just, I'm just reading books I wanna read. I'm doing my laundry. I'm getting to know my dog again. You know?Jennie: Oh, wow. Well, thankCaroline: you. But, you know, it's a fair question. Yeah.Jennie: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for coming and chatting about this, and for writing such a cool book. And- Thank you ... um, I'm looking forward to seeing what you do next.Caroline: Thank you, Jennie. It was a [00:42:00] pleasure.Jennie: Well, for our listeners, until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.The #amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcomeToday's guest is author, writing coach, and sobriety expert Tawny Lara, the author of Dry Humping: A Guide to Dating, Relating, and Hooking Up Without the Booze.In this episode, Tawny pulls back the curtain on her publishing journey—from blogging and viral essays to finding an agent, switching from memoir to more journalistic nonfiction, completely rewriting her proposal, and ultimately selling her book. We get into querying, indie publishing vs. the Big Five, advances, audiobooks, and DIY book publicity. She also shares why every writer needs a newsletter, how she built an effective Substack strategy, the publicity tactics that landed her major media coverage, and why tapping into your existing network is often more powerful than chasing social media algorithms.Plus, Tawny explains how she sold a sobriety card deck to Penguin Random House, why rejection is an essential part of every publishing career, and the simple writing advice that transformed her creative practice.Subscribe to Tawny's Substack Beyond Liquid Courage. Follow her on Instagram @tawnymlara, and buy your copy of Dry Humping on Bookshop.org, Amazon, or wherever books are sold!Get your copy of Courtney's debut memoir Girl Gone Wild from ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Amazon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.Courtney is teaching some upcoming classes you might be interested in:Midsummer Pitch Party: https://www.courtneykocak.com/store/midsummerpitchpartySo You Want to Start a Podcast?: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-podcast-workshop-courtney-kocakEdit & Elevate: Revision Intensive: https://writingworkshops.com/products/edit-elevate-revision-intensive-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocakThe Multi-Passionate Writer's Life: https://writingworkshops.com/products/the-multi-passionate-writers-life-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocak12 Months to a Full Memoir in Essays Incubator: Write Your Memoir in a Year: https://writingworkshops.com/products/memoir-in-essays-incubator-nonfiction-writing-workshop-online-june-2026How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminarStart a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminarLand Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminar

Jennie Nash interviews author Meghan P. Browne about her journey from picture-book nonfiction to selling her first middle-grade novel, after participating in the 2022 Blueprint Challenge. Browne began the project in 2019, drafted it during her MFA at Vermont College of Fine Arts, then used the Blueprint framework to “reverse engineer” the manuscript and discover it lacked plot; the inside outline helped her connect scene events to emotional meaning. After tragedy and other commitments, she returned to revise intensively, resubmitted to her agent, and the novel later sold. Browne also describes submitting pages to the podcast's First Page Lab and learning to absorb both critical and positive feedback. Visit Meghan on her website: https://meghanpbrowne.comThanks for reading #AmWriting! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.Join the Blueprint Summer ChallengeStarting a book? Stuck in a draft? Planning a revision?The Blueprint Summer Challenge is designed to help you make meaningful progress on your manuscript this summer.Over six weeks, beginning July 10, you'll use the Blueprint—a proven framework for developing stronger books with greater clarity, purpose, and reader impact—to move your project forward, wherever you are in the process.Whether you're writing nonfiction, memoir, fiction, or another genre entirely, the goal is simple: spend six focused weeks making your book stronger.Start with the Blueprint CourseWe're offering an all-new Blueprint course in Teachable, which includes:* The full text of The Blueprint* Fourteen video lessons covering every step of the framework* Real coaching examples that show writers applying the Blueprint to their own projects* Practical guidance you can use immediatelyThe course is designed to help you develop a stronger foundation for your book—whether you're beginning from a blank page, working through a draft, or planning a revision.Course enrollment: $19

In a hot seat coaching session on the #amwriting podcast, Jennie Nash coaches Brenna Humphries on a nonfiction proposal for Where It Hurts: A Couple's Guide to Kicking Prostate Cancer, noting a disconnect between the proposal's tone/claims and the sample chapters. They discuss how “salesy” positioning and language that can read as antagonistic toward the medical system may create legal and traditional publishing risks, especially when offering what could be construed as medical advice. Nash suggests shifting authority to lived experience and reframing the book as a framework for how couples navigate diagnosis and decision-making—using structures like key decisions, conversations, or “dates”—while keeping strong scene-based storytelling. Brenna agrees to substantially revise, aiming for a helpful stance that supports patients and partners with questions to ask, teamwork, and process rather than prescriptive medical directives.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Join the Blueprint Summer ChallengeStarting a book? Stuck in a draft? Planning a revision?The Blueprint Summer Challenge is designed to help you make meaningful progress on your manuscript this summer.Over six weeks, beginning July 10, you'll use the Blueprint—a proven framework for developing stronger books with greater clarity, purpose, and reader impact—to move your project forward, wherever you are in the process.Whether you're writing nonfiction, memoir, fiction, or another genre entirely, the goal is simple: spend six focused weeks making your book stronger.Start with the Blueprint CourseWe're offering an all-new Blueprint course in Teachable, which includes:The full text of The BlueprintFourteen video lessons covering every step of the frameworkReal coaching examples that show writers applying the Blueprint to their own projectsPractical guidance you can use immediatelyThe course is designed to help you develop a stronger foundation for your book—whether you're beginning from a blank page, working through a draft, or planning a revision.Course enrollment: $19

On the #amwriting podcast's “Margin Notes,” Jennie Nash talks with Dr. Diana Hill (author of Wise Effort) about how the urge to prove yourself—through resumes, accolades, or “pre-order my book” pleas—undermines authenticity and connection, especially when pitching ideas, proposals, or personal brands. Hill describes confronting this while rebranding her website and shifting from listing credentials to articulating the real user experience and who the work is and isn't for, using specific language that reflects her core value of awareness/attunement rather than generic, AI-like claims. They unpack the psychology behind proving (seeking safety, belonging, and autonomy) and suggest asking which need is driving the behavior, aiming instead to demonstrate value, embrace vulnerability, and rely on trusted “tough love” feedback.Books Mentioned* Wise Effort by Dr. Diana HillJoin the Blueprint Summer ChallengeStarting a book? Stuck in a draft? Planning a revision?The Blueprint Summer Challenge is designed to help you make meaningful progress on your manuscript this summer.Over six weeks, beginning July 10, you'll use the Blueprint—a proven framework for developing stronger books with greater clarity, purpose, and reader impact—to move your project forward, wherever you are in the process.Whether you're writing nonfiction, memoir, fiction, or another genre entirely, the goal is simple: spend six focused weeks making your book stronger.Start with the Blueprint CourseWe're offering an all-new Blueprint course in Teachable, which includes:* The full text of The Blueprint* Fourteen video lessons covering every step of the framework* Real coaching examples that show writers applying the Blueprint to their own projects* Practical guidance you can use immediatelyThe course is designed to help you develop a stronger foundation for your book—whether you're beginning from a blank page, working through a draft, or planning a revision.Course enrollment: $19

Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcomeToday's guest is publishing expert, author, and newsletter pioneer Jane Friedman, a 25+ year industry veteran and the author of The Business of Being a Writer. She talks candidly about how the publishing industry has transformed in the creator economy era—and why building a sustainable writing career today requires far more than just landing a book deal.In this episode, Jane breaks down the transformative shifts reshaping publishing, from the rise of Substack, TikTok, and direct-to-reader marketing to the growing legitimacy of self-publishing and hybrid publishing models. We get into why entrepreneurial authors are thriving, how video platforms are driving book sales in surprising ways, and why newsletters and email lists remain one of the most powerful tools for writers. We also talk about platform building, ownership and rights, bestseller lists, audiobook strategy, and how today's authors are thinking differently about control, distribution, and long-term career sustainability.Plus, Jane shares her nuanced take on AI's growing role in publishing—from the ethical outrage surrounding copyrighted training data to the practical ways writers are already using AI for research, brainstorming, and marketing support, and why writers who completely ignore AI may eventually put themselves at a disadvantage.Subscribe to Jane's industry newsletter The Bottom Line. Follow her on Instagram @janefriedman, and buy your copy of The Business of Being a Writer on Bookshop.org, Amazon, or wherever books are sold!Get your copy of Courtney's debut memoir Girl Gone Wild from ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Amazon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.Courtney is teaching some upcoming classes you might be interested in:How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminarStart a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminar12 Months to a Full Memoir in Essays Incubator: Write Your Memoir in a Year: https://writingworkshops.com/products/memoir-in-essays-incubator-nonfiction-writing-workshop-online-june-2026Land Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminarSo You Want to Start a Podcast?: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-podcast-workshop-courtney-kocakEdit & Elevate: Revision Intensive: https://writingworkshops.com/products/edit-elevate-revision-intensive-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocakThe Multi-Passionate Writer's Life: https://writingworkshops.com/products/the-multi-passionate-writers-life-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocak

Andrew returns with his latest blueprint for a gothic mystery, and the coaching quickly zeroes in on what will make it work: a clear, compelling villain and twists that truly land. With help from thriller coach and Thrillerfest executive director Samantha Skal, the discussion unpacks the hidden layer of the story—what the villain is actually doing—and how that contrasts with the protagonist's assumptions.As they dig in, it becomes clear that strengthening the mystery means making the murders more personal, introducing a convincing false suspect, and mapping both the visible story and the truth underneath it. By the end, Andrew has a sharper path forward: deepen the villain's motive, raise the stakes earlier, and build each twist so it feels both surprising and inevitable.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.About Book Coach Sam SkalA fan of the scary, mysterious, and suspenseful, Samantha Skal is the Executive Director of ThrillerFest, the co-founder of Shadows & Secrets writing retreats, and an Author Accelerator-certified book coach who specializes in coaching mystery, thriller, horror, and suspense authors. Sam writes stories that keep her up at night, is a breast cancer survivor, and lives in the beautiful Pacific Northwest. Learn more at www.samanthaskal.com and www.shadowsandsecrets.com. Catch Up on Andrew's Hot Seat Coaching JourneyTranscriptHi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.This is a hot seat coaching episode where we work through a real challenge in real time.And today we're back talking with Andrew Perella, the hashtag am writing podcast producer who has stepped out from behind the mic to work on a novel. And where we left Andrew last time was you'd worked through the whole blueprint and you were tasked with completing. Inside outline. So before we get into our guest and, um, what we're gonna do today, how was that, what was it like for you?Um, I mean, it was, it was, uh, really hard. Uh, but it was, it was, uh, it was really gratifying and it was, it was a lot of fun to do as well. Um. Because I think, um, part of, part of the assignment, you, you, you left for me, [00:01:00] Jenny, was to also beef out certain elements of certain, certain, the presence of certain characters, um, and certain and certain elements of the book.And so I was trying to do that as well as. As, as crafting the outline. Um, and so yeah, it was, it was a long, it was a struggle. It was a struggle, especially to get it to three, to keep it to three, to get it down to three pages. I know, and I'm very strict about that for reasons you are. Um, and. Did you feel a sense of accomplishment when you did it though?Like, oh, this is a book and I'm writing it, or how did that land? Yeah, I mean, like at first I just started writing. I started writing the scene bullets and the, and the points, and just started like, okay, what are all the, what are all the elements that that. I have in my head that I need to get down onto paper and it was like 6, 7, 8 pages.And I was like, okay, now I gotta get this down to three pages. Um, and, and, and I was like, okay, I can combine these two scenes or maybe I don't need this. So I just ended up cutting a lot and cutting a lot [00:02:00] and getting it down. So like, yes, there was a sense of like. Completion. Um, that was certainly gratifying, uh, to get that.And, uh, I had a couple of late nights, um, getting that, getting that squared away, but yeah, it also feels, feels more real now. Um, and it's like, yeah, there's, there's, there's a, there's a there here, which I'm pretty excited about. I'm excited about too, and I'm also excited because we're doing something really cool today.Um, and we have with us Samantha Skull, who I will introduce in a hot second. But hi Samantha. Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Well, I'm excited too because, um. Sam, as I call her, um, I've known for quite some time. She's one of the OG author, accelerator certified coaches. And Sam, you actually don't know this, but I use you.Probably every day.Oh my God, I'm so flattered as an example of [00:03:00] what a great book coach should do, which is to focus and choose who you're gonna serve and how you're gonna serve them, and to really go deep into what you love and what you wanna do all day. Right? The read books all day and get paid for it thing like do what you love and you.Do that. You've done that just so powerfully and it's so visible on your website, which we'll link to in the show notes so folks can go see, but. Sam loves all the dark and suspenseful and scary mystery, twisty things, which always just cracked me up because I don't, and that's what's so beautiful about book coaching and writing for that matters.Everybody has their own thing and, and that's part of the work of writing Big is. What is your thing? You know? So the reason that I wanted Sam to come is she's built a whole business on this type of work and with, um, another author, [00:04:00] accelerator coach, she runs a really cool, uh, writing retreat that is, um, it's always in Salem.Right. It is in a haunted hotel, which, um, Carrie Savage, who is my co-founder in shadows and secrets, uh, loves being haunted. I do not choose to be haunted, so I choose the non haunted floor. So they have that retreat and they, um, have just started taking it virtual and just all kinds of tools and resources and things for people writing this kind of work.And in addition to that, I. I just am always impressed by your trajectory of having gone from. A volunteer at the Thriller Fest. Well, for a participant at the Thriller Fest conference to being a volunteer, to running the Pitch Fest piece of the thing. And now you're, well then you were co-director, now you're running the whole thing.You're, you're, yes, I am. You're running the entire [00:05:00] Thriller Fest conference, which is how many writers every year. Oh, we have around a thousand and I have a team behind me. Just to be clear. This would not happen without a village, but uh, yes, we have around a thousand thriller authors who come to New York and we, uh, we talk about the dark stuff all week.It's absolutely the, the best time. And it's in two weeks. I can't, I mean, when this comes out, it may have already passed, but yeah, can't wait. No, this is coming out right before, so if anybody wants a quick getaway to New York, they should go. But also just the programming, watch the programming coming out of it and we're so excited.Yeah, it's really good. So, um, I just, I love the career you've built for yourself. It's always just really inspiring to me. And, um, also a recent breast cancer survivor, so we're, uh, always wanna shout out to that. Yes. Get your scans. That's my PSA. Always love it. Same. Love it. Love it. So I wanted Sam to come look at Andrew's inside [00:06:00] outline because I knew that the thing he has to work on is this, what I call in my not totally expertise in this area.I call the twisties of it. That there's a, you know, it's a mystery. It's a murder, it's a gothic, it's horror. It's all the things. And it, those twists have to land. And this is so much Sam's expertise that the whole time I was talking to Andrew about it and guiding him and coaching him, I just kept thinking, we need Sam in here.So, so we got Sam in here. And so, um, Andrew completed his inside outline and Sam very graciously, um, agreed to look through it and to look through his whole blueprint. So before we get into what you saw and what you found, Sam. I just love to hear, I mean, this is so self-serving. I just like nothing more than reading a blueprint.I think it's so fun. Um, just to like, [00:07:00] kind of peel back the, the cover and see what's in there. Did, did you have fun with that? Oh my gosh. So much fun. Andrew. This story is, is so cool. And I love the historical elements and the rethinking of, you know, vampires are running around London and everyone's just like, that's fine.You know, and then how does, how does this all go down? And we have this very agency filled, moxie filled main character who's just a delight and yeah, I loved it. I have, I have so many fun questions to ask you. So Andrew, how does that feel? I mean, it feels great and I, I was reading through, uh, through both of your notes, um, in the, in the, in the outline and like you're asking all of these questions.Um. Some of them that I have not thought of before and like, so I'm, so I'm really excited to kind of dig into these and talk through them. But I'm, I'm, it's really gratifying to hear that this, that this idea is, is, is, is an interesting one. Yeah. I loved it. I a hundred [00:08:00] percent read this book. I'd, I'd see it and be like, yes, I want, I want to be in that world.Cool. Well that's why you're here. Because I would be like, no, too scary. Too scary for me. So, um, I'm gonna let. Sam sort of take it away and, uh, we could talk for days, I'm sure about this, but one of the, the things I love about book coaches who are well trained is they'll hone in on the most important, the most important things.So. What do you think, Sam? What's the most important thing Andrew should be thinking about in his next iteration of this outline? Yeah, so my favorite thing to talk about outta the gate with Mr. Thriller and suspense and gothic horror, depending on how dark you wanna make this, um, is who is the person who's really behind all these murders and why are they committing them?Right? I like to think of MTS mystery full or suspense as the villain's journey as experienced by the [00:09:00] protagonist. Mm-hmm. Right. So we, we must know what's going on beneath the surface in order for those twists to land, because twists are just assumptions about what's going on that the protagonist makes.And when the truth, you know, what's really going on with the villain is revealed, it's twisty because it's unexpected. Mm-hmm. So if we don't, therefore if we don't know who's. Who's behind, who's doing all these villainous things. Um, we struggle to make those twists land and we struggle to get a blueprint that we can actually follow.So tell me your thoughts on who this mastermind murderer is and why they're doing what they're doing. Um, so. So Jack Seward is the, is the, is the Mastermind behind this. And I've been, I've been thinking a lot about it this week since I, since I finished the, since I finished the outline. And a lot of other things have occurred to me about who this gentleman is and how he's doing what he's doing.But I think the why is, um, he is committed to the status quo. He is committed [00:10:00] to, uh, uh, uh, uh, a, you know, uh. He is committed to the manosphere. He is committed to the patriarchy. He has committed to, um, the previous way of doing things. Um. In, in, in society, in politics, in medicine. And so like he's seeing this sea change, um, in all of those areas.Um, with the advent of this, of this, um, medical school for women, uh, with the, with this vote, um, vote, uh, that is happening. Um, and he disapproves and so his goal is to disrupt all of those, um. Disruptions di uh, by pitting them against each other. Got it. So if he can, if he can. Create this illusion that vampires are preying on Suffr jets.They will be too busy fighting each other to try and find any sort of, uh, agency for [00:11:00] themselves. Aha. Very, very well thought out. I love that. As a, as a mastermind villain goal. So here's the other thing, is that mm-hmm. In the genre expectation for any sort of modern mystery, full or suspense, is that we have three twists.We have one at the mid and we can have more. Right. But we have one at the midpoint, which is just the midpoint turn. Like it's, it's a classic story thing, which you already have. You have a great midpoint currently. Mm-hmm. Um, and the climactic twist is the reveal of, uh, as, as Carrie, my co-founder and shadows and secrets likes to say, um, the climactic.Confrontation answers the story question, which is presented in the inciting incident and typically in mysteries, the inciting incident is who's doing the killing? Right? Like, who's behind this dead body that we have early on? And we'll talk about that in just a second. Um, so the climactic answers that question, and then we have a final twist, which is typically the reveal of this gentleman who wants to keep things as is.And he [00:12:00] meanwhile. During the course of the story is going to be taking action to stop, uh, our plucky protagonist from stopping him, right? Mm-hmm. So he's a full antagonist to our protagonist. And in that way we need a fake villain, right? We need someone that he can have set up so that she thinks this is the person behind everything in the climactic scene.And then she gets to the end and is like, oh my gosh, I've. You know, I've conquered, I've brought chaos to order, I've solved this thing, and now, oh my God, now there's somebody else who's actually behind everything. And actually we're still in grave danger and we didn't even know to be worried about this.And that's how you get that like, you know, 85 to 98% just ripping through the pages readers, you know, being so hooked to figure out what happened. Right. Um, so. Tell me a little bit more about who Seward could have set up or manipulated or something [00:13:00] else to commit these murders so that he gets done what he wants to get done, but he also protects himself.And if you don't know the answer, that's okay. We can brainstorm. But if you do, then that's great. So this is, this is kind of part of the, the, the thought, the idea that I've had since I, since I finished the, the, the, uh, the outline is. Because the, the syringe idea mm-hmm. The double-headed syringe idea always felt a little tenuous.Uh, like I, I wasn't quite sure that that was gonna hold, but, so my new thought about this is, is. Because he is, uh, he is the, uh, director of a mental institution. Um, and so, and so, like, that's a whole other politic where he has people who are, uh, who are in his thra essentially. And so is there a way that he can coerce, um, a vampire who needs him to commit these murders on his behalf, thereby kind of insulating himself from the actions.Perfect. And [00:14:00] so I think that could, so the climactic twist would then be. It's a vampire I disco discovering that the, the, this is the vampires committing the murders. But then the, the, the final twist is, oh s**t, he's been doing this at the behest of, of Seward, who's her, you know, kind of Yes, yes. As it were in quotation.Okay. Yes. That sounds amazing. And it also, you know, when we step into this story, um, in your initial scene, we have. Vampires feeding on people and Abby's just like, uh, okay, that's, that's normal. Right? And so is that, did I read that right? Is that the world that we're in? Is that We have vampires existing and Van Helsing, you know, was the one who kept them in check.And we have all that like lore that we're dealing with that the reader brings in. So tell me more about the world I'm walking into here. So, yeah, I think I'm still developing this world. So we're 20 years. Around 20 years after the events of Dracula. Okay. The, the, the novel. And so, and I think, I think people are now aware that [00:15:00] vampires exist.And I think, you know, at this, at the same time, they're being used as like this bogey man or, or, or straw man of like, everything that is wrong with, with British society. Um, but they're also. Not the monsters, right? They're, they're just another, another, um, community that is trying to, uh, eke out, eke out some sort of existence.Um, I love that so much. It's just such a fun, sort of new twist on. Know a story that's so well known and has been in our collective conscience for a hundred years. You know, I don't know when, when Dracula came out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a long time, right? A little over a hundred years. Yeah. It's been a minute.It's been a minute. Um, and so I, so it's still very much a period of transition as, as you know, London and the world are still trying to figure out what that means, that these things actually exist and live among us. Um, and, uh, and so. There were [00:16:00] some things that didn't make it into the outline like I had.There was this one scene where they're walking down the street and there's someone on the soapbox at speaker's Corner at Hyde Park who's railing against, who's railing against, uh, um, vampires as like a sturge on society and things of that nature. And, and there'll be things in the newspaper. I think that kind of addressed this new, this new politic, um, that, that the characters interact with.And so I'm still feeling out what exactly it means. That vampires exist and are part of the public consciousness. Yeah. So one sort of logical question that comes up for me there is, you know, if we're in society and there's just like monsters living among us who occasionally pick people off on the street, that would create a level of, um, extreme tension.Okay. Right. One might say, right, like, yeah, if I'm wandering down the street and I see a vampire eating somebody that's not just like a, you know, we would be taking steps to protect ourselves because humans are always going to protect themselves, and so yes. You [00:17:00] know what, if you change it where the vampires are only allowed to feed on like livestock or something.Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, something that's like the, nobody's happy, right? Yeah. Like, like most, uh, um, situations where we, we agree on something and we're, we're all giving something up. Yeah. But that allows them to exist in society and live among us. Right? Like the, the veil has been lifted. Vampires are here.But they've agreed to only eat livestock, and then the fact that they're murdering people by eating them then becomes. A huge deal. Right? Because this Deante that we've had with them is now broken. Mm-hmm. Um, something like that, because I think if we, if we have it just being casual that they're, they're eating people in alleys or whatever, it reduces, I mean, that's a fun story, don't get me wrong.Yeah, yeah. But that reduces the impact of the murders that we are seeking to solve with this and Right. You know, you said this was, this was a mystery. And so currently [00:18:00] we don't have a ton of mystery on the page like we have. The midpoint is where, um, she discovers that things might not be what they seem, which I love.But in order for that to have impact, we need something earlier. And that could be, you know, these murders have been happening for a few days. That could be the last year. It could be she sees the first murder. Um. Something along those lines, but we need something early. So we, we understand the tension and we understand the mystery story question because you have a ton of other story questions in here, but if this is mystery first, the mystery story question needs to be who committed, who is committing these murders and why?Yep. Yeah. Does that kind of, that makes sense? Land? Yes. No, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Now as a, as as I was, I was rereading the outline, the other, the other, the, the other night. And I was like, I feel, I feel like there needs to be another murder scene. Yeah. Earlier we gotta up the body count in the, the book.Yeah. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a conversation I have every day. [00:19:00] Yeah. Not, not enough dead bodies. Not enough dead. Not enough dead bodies. Yeah. So, you know, and so if she is, if she's really worried about, you know, that's their question is why, why is she so involved in solving these murders? How do we make it personal to her?Mm-hmm. And so could this be a friend? Could this be. You know, um, a sister, could this be an aunt, like some something that's related to her so that this person is taken out. And then that becomes Seward has targeted her because she's the, she's, you know, van sing's niece, right? Yep. Yeah. So she's a public figure that if he takes out by having a vampire.Quote, you know, kill her. Then he will have achieved his goal of disrupting this whole thing and be like, look how dangerous it's for women to be out in the world and you know. Mm-hmm. We should put a stop to this. Like that achieves his goal, but she won't know. Right. Obviously that [00:20:00] that's his goal. Right.But he also needs to create the unrest, so it's not just, you know, she's the one who's murdered. That's going to be the climactic plan and he will have killed other people in the meantime. Right. Okay. Something like that. Like we need to make, yeah. Whatever it is that needs to be personal to her. And if she paint, if she paints a target on her back later on by being a ksky, amateur sleuth, which is classic.Um. That works well as well. But I like, you know, one of the questions I love to ask is, what was your villain doing on the day that their prote, the pro protagonist, decided to ruin their life by deciding to go after and stop them from villain. And so maybe she had nothing to do with any of this and she's researching and becomes a problem.That's the other way you could play it. Mm-hmm. Um. But, you know, if he has this grand plan and he's like, Ooh, Abby would make a great sort of like, figurehead to the end of all these murders, and that's the one that I'm gonna point at it and be like, [00:21:00] look, we can't, you know, I, we can't have these women out here.Right? Something like that could work well. Um, what do you think? What, what's, what's your brain do when I say all those things? Um, it's interesting. I hadn't considered, I hadn't considered that her uncle would be targeting her. One of the things I've been grappling with was like. One of the reasons he targets people around her is to scare her away from med school to scare her away from the cause, okay.Um, and kind of pin her in further to the existing, to the existing, um, um, status quo. Um, and so I hadn't considered him using her. Sacrificing her for his, uh, for his ultimate goals. Yeah. Um, and that's an in, that's an interesting idea. And, and if she were to discover that would certainly up to stakes, um, that would certainly up to stakes for her.It would. And so if you want him to be a little more [00:22:00] empathetic Right. We don't need to go like full dark if you don't want to. Right. Um, he could be trying to protect her. By killing other people, which is misguided. Yeah. But, uh, fun. Right? And then that would make sense. So when she figures out it's actually him, he could be like, I was doing all of this to protect you because I love you.You're in my family. Right? Yeah. That also works. But we need to have whatever his, his plan is for causing, you know, using these murders to achieve his goal. If she's, she needs to be the target of it so that it's very personal to her as she moves through this story. Um, and upping the stakes is always great.It amps the tension, right? Yeah. And again, she's not gonna know any of this until she gets to that final twist. And so one of like the most fine chilling, you know, tingly things that you can do with mysteries is that reveal at the very end. We as through the protagonist, understand how much danger we were in [00:23:00] this entire story, and we had no idea.Right? And that moment is the one that we're seeking with readers and for ourselves, right? It's like, how do we have that moment that reveal have the biggest impact possible? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. Yeah. I, I see Andrew just grinning, like, what are you, whatcha feeling? He's just like, got his giant grin on his face.I mean, like, and like I said, I've been trying to figure out how, because it, because as I was reading, as I was reading through the outline, it did feel like, like abriana was just kind of like adjacent to mm-hmm. All of the murders. Um, and, and Jenny, you and I had talked about whether there was an active investigation and, and, and Sam, I think you kind of alluded to that in, in the notes, is there, is there an active investigation and like, is she, is, is Abriana being.Is, uh, uh, coroner does a suspect by the, by the investigators. Um, is that, why, is that why she is doing her own investigation? Um, [00:24:00] which is another, which is another way to to, to up the stakes. Mm-hmm. Also, um, I, yeah, I'm, I'm, that's an interest, that's an interesting way though to, that's an interesting take on Seward, who's, um, an avuncular figure.He's not, like, he's not a blood relation. To Abriana, but like he is, he is determined in his goal and like, you know, he would, he probably would stop at nothing to get that done, even if it meant, even if it meant, uh, the daughter of a friend of his got killed. Yeah, I mean, just thinking through, and this is your homework, really, is to think through how dark do you want to make him, right?Because you can have a villain who starts off with. A, uh, a goal and decides to achieve it through very ill-advised means, but still wants to protect the people around them, right? Like they can be both. We don't have to have it be a hundred percent. [00:25:00] This person is so evil and willing to burn it all down, right?And so, but that can also be a series of bad decisions. It's like bad decision one leads to, oh my God, like people are finding out that these aren't really vampires. Now I have to really like double down to make it really seem like vampires, so I don't get caught. Because guess what, if I get caught, my life is ruined.Right? And you know, as Abby gets closer, he realizes. I have to kill her. Right? Yeah. She's, she's gonna ruin everything. Yeah. And that sort of angst and that, you know, that would be very painful for him. That could be the thing that when she confronts him at the end, and there will be a de Ma, right? We're gonna have something where he's like, I did all these things for this reason.And it doesn't have to be Yeah. Pages, but we do have a, that's a classic mystery thing. Mm-hmm. She'll understand if you like this, that you know, he was trying to protect her and then. He'll be like, you did this to yourself. You know, like, right. Yeah. You're the one who got in the way. Um, something like [00:26:00] that.And he's like, mm-hmm. My only choice now is to kill you. And then of course she will not allow that because she's our lucky protagonist and will survive because chaos will be brought to order. That's the other big thing is we wanna wrap this up unless you're going who, in which case. It gets worse at the very end.Um, is, is that, is that, is that allowed? Yeah, we, yeah. Well, to keep chaos on the chaos, absolutely. We just need it genre bending is. So hot right now, right? Um, and it's really fun, right? So you can have both, you can have the main mystery wrapped up, like she can, Abby can figure out, okay, this wasn't actually vampires and someone is posing as a vampire.And so that actually changes your midpoint, by the way. We'll talk about that in a second. But if that's the arc, right? She thinks it's vampires. She is, when she does the climactic confrontation, she's like, it's vampires like someone, you know, what are they doing? Why are they doing this? And then realizes [00:27:00] in that, that it wasn't vampires and it's actually someone else.Um, the chaos will be brought to order in that way, right? Like we have, we have a right, we have figured out that someone was posing as a vampire. But what if you have a final, final twist where you know, there actually are vampires. Killing people as well. Like seaward only admits to three of these murders and then there's someone else doing, you know, and it's just like we end it with like, oh no.You know? Right. Yeah. Or by, maybe there's something mystical with like by imitating a vampire or that, you know, the vampires have been gathering their energy for the last 20 years by feeding on goats and you know, they're ready to, we need a new van Helsing to, to keep them under control or something. And Abby takes up that mantle and, you know.You can, you can totally play it where there's an unanswered. Okay. Oh no, it's worse at the end, but we do need some sort of wrap up of the story. Gotcha. But there does seem to be some cover resolution. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I see what you're saying. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. So it strikes [00:28:00] me, I'm not sure that you picked this up, Sam, and you might not have, but that there's a.Uh, um, Mina the Vampire. Mina, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is is her mother. Right. I did pick up on that, and that's a question I have. Okay. Yeah. Great. Because it seems like what you're all talking about that could play a really important role in any of these twists and arcs. Right. I. Yes. Yes. Plus one. Yeah. Everything you just said.Um, yeah. So Mina being her mother, fantastic. One of your final twists, right? And particularly if you have Seward being like the final confrontation, final twist person, and then, you know, you have this lovely final scene where she's like, oh my God, it's my mother. Um, yeah. But the logical question there is why would Mina Hyde, what's she after?Why would she not have tried to help Abby? Right? Because you're dealing with reader expectations that mothers will do anything to protect their children. Right? And so you can, we can twist that. Maybe she is trying to protect her from what's coming, right? [00:29:00] Like what's actually going on. Maybe she's the one who's been protecting her the whole time by warding off the vampires that have been attacking her, her friends at medical school.Um. And that's why there's so many mistaken identity things, right? Because you have two where, where Abby's like, whoops. I think that was supposed to be for me. Yeah. Um, and so the reader's gonna wonder why are they so bad at killing her, right? Like, if these were assassin attempts, like why wouldn't what, what's going on?And so that answers that question. If it's Mina stepping in, but you know, we need to understand what Mina's really after and why she didn't step forward sooner. That's a huge question that, you know, yeah. Everyone will have. Yeah, it is a huge question. Like, like where has she been for the last 18 years?Mm-hmm. Why has Aubrianna not seen her since, since, since her birth? Um, and I haven't quite nailed that down yet. Like, is there some sort of like vampire code? I don't like, I don't know. Is it, is it that she's, is that she, that Mina. Knows [00:30:00] Jonathan, her husband too well, and knows that, that he would not allow a vampire, uh, to interact with his children.Like. And so I think there, I think there are a couple of answers to that, but I haven't like, landed on one yet. Um, but I, like, I, I like the idea of Mina working kind of behind the scenes to protect, to actively protect, um. Abriana, which is what that, that opening that, that, that scene in the alley earlier on is about, is like she comes to her aid at that point.Um, and, uh, and, and and physically puts herself between, between Abri and Abriana and the violence, which Abriana misunderstands, uh, and runs away terrified. But I think, I, I think there are ways to incorporate that, as you say. Elsewhere in the, elsewhere in the story. Yeah. Well, I mean she, to make to a fantastic twist would be, she assumes Mina is the one after her, right?Right. Yeah. Like she recalls in this opening scene that Mina was coming at her and is like, Ooh, that's the vampire that wants to kill me. Yeah, yeah. And [00:31:00] you know, sees her around. And so that's her assumption. And this is how you create twists, right? Her assumption is that Nina is the person behind all of this, and why, but.You run the risk of when she starts investigating Mina and figuring out who she is? It would be, we'd figure out we need some very good reason that she couldn't figure out that was that Mina was her mother, right? Yeah. Yes. So in that case, I would suggest having some other vampire be the one that she thinks is behind everything.Um, which leads me to the midpoint. So currently this is where she discovers that these bite marks are not bite marks at all. They are. Other Marks syringes. Right, right. Like the, yeah. Yeah. Um, so if that's the midpoint, which I like, again, that means that she's going to assume that there is a human or a vampire who's lost her teeth.I don't know, um, behind all of this. And the climactic confrontation will be with that, [00:32:00] with that knowledge that this is not a vampire doing these villainous things. Um. So how does that feel? Like do if, do we, is there someone in the cast that we can sort of have her assume is that person that's not Seward.Not, not someone that I've identified yet. Um, okay. But I, I, I, I agree with you. We need, we need someone that she, that she's pursuing and, uh, in, at, in, in that sense. Um, and, and she believed, I, I, I see, I see. Now I see what you're saying. That the, the importance of her making that, that, that incorrect assumption that this is the person who's, who's doing, who's doing the, the killings.And I don't know who that is yet. I don't know if there's someone actively in the, in the cha in the cast that we have, or if I need, if I need a new character. Okay. I mean, you can also play with, you know, so this is the thing about mysteries, it gets very quickly complicated, is on the surface we have all the assumptions which are incorrect.[00:33:00] Right? Right. And so we have to build up that, those plots and make it plausible. Yeah. Because we need, you know, the example I like to give is like, let's say you, you come home and you're expecting that no one else is there and there's an open window and there is a earring back on the counter and a bloody footprint on your.You know, nice white carpet and you know, um, a knocked over plant and then you recall, oh yes, you know the nab I've been babysitting the neighbor's cat, they knocked over the plant. So that's solved. But this bloody footprint is really freaking me out because clearly somebody came in here and made a bloody footprint and that's terrifying.You're focusing on the bloody footprint because that's the most obvious thing, but the earring back is the thing that is the villain clue. Right, and that, that's the person that came in and misled you by putting the bloody footprint on the carpet for reasons, capital R, whatever it is in this story, right?But we have clocked on screen, on the page what the clue is and ignored it. And so yeah, [00:34:00] this is how you can go back in on a revision and you know, you maybe we don't know who this other person is that's actually doing this, but they will have a vested interest in not being caught. Right? Mm-hmm. And so these little clues that we put on the page later are ignored, and then we're following the story that we've already created.Mm-hmm. Um, but keeping track of all these layers feels complicated, which is why Jenny's outline with three pages is so, so useful. Um, right. Because what the, what's on the page is the, is the story that you already, that we're focusing on, right? Mm-hmm. And then what really happened? Mm-hmm. Is the thing beneath the surface that we don't learn until the truth is revealed in one of these twists.Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. No, that absolutely makes sense. That Absolutely. That also feels like a lot to think about. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't have, I don't have enough red earrings. I don't have enough mis, I don't have enough misdirecting. Misdirecting clues, as it were. Right. Well, those are fun to brainstorm, right?Because we start thinking [00:35:00] about who really, it comes back to Seward. Like what would he be doing to misdirect Abby away from this? Right. To keep her safe, if you like that as a goal. Yeah. And also to make the, make society freak out about how vampires are killing again. Mm-hmm. Um, what would he plant, who would he manipulate?Who would he pay off? You know? Mm-hmm. Maybe there's a vampire who knows about all of this, and. Is trying to kill the person that Seward is hired to do the syringes because Seward's not going around and doing this. Abby would've seen him or you know mm-hmm. Recognized him or something. So he will have paid someone to, or it has someone in his organization who also believes in the cause.Yeah. And is doing this, and maybe that person's a vampire. I don't know. I do love the double syringe. I mean, I hope that stays. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. It's good. Is it? Yeah. I heard you say, I heard you kind of dismiss it, Andrew, but it, to me, that would be a perfect misdirection if [00:36:00] somebody finds that and now there's this whole thread of assumptions about what that means and Yeah, but that it's not really what it is or it's not being used the way we think, or so.Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Sam, you mentioned something because I was, I was getting close to like throwing that overboard. No, it's good. No. Okay. Okay. I think it is good. So, so, so, so, but that could still be, that could still be used as a, that could still, I could still use it as a red herring potentially, uh, because it could still be a vampire at Seward's behest committing the murders.But maybe they're doing it with the syringe or maybe they're, and or maybe they're doing it a little bit with their own or Right. Or not. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to Jenny's point, this could be a total, maybe. Maybe it's not used for what we think. Maybe the double syringe is something completely unrelated and it's like the best way to draw out the.I don't know. I mean, depending on, maybe he is drugging the people in the [00:37:00] asylum, like giving them more drugs than they're supposed to have. Right, right. And, and he devised, I mean, you know, devised a double syringe to deliver it and doesn't want anybody to know that that's what he is doing, you know? Yeah, yeah.Okay. Yeah, yeah. But if you wanna play with the idea that there's also a vampire involved who believes in Seward's? Cause then that, you know. That's very interesting because it's like, well, why? What do they want? You know? Yeah, yeah. Or even just someone who is, is being coerced by him, who does, doesn't necessarily Yes.Believe in the cause, but is perhaps is, has perhaps been assigned to his asylum. Mm-hmm. And he's taking advantage of, I love. Which I think, I think really makes sewer to a, a pretty despicable individual on a number of levels, which I, which I can like, well, I mean, he's already killing people, so, right. You know, slippery slope.But that's what, you know, it's, that's the, [00:38:00] that's the thing is that his, his goals. We need to make logical sense when we get to the end and Right. You know, Abby figures out what's going on, but he, he can also be empathetic. Right? Yeah. Like, why is he so scared of women? Yeah. Being in society, what is, what is that deep fear about?And that's definitely something to explore as well. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, so we could, like I said, talk for days, for days about these things, but, um, it feels like this is a good place to leave Andrew with a whole bunch of work to do. And I'm just laughing because, um, this is such a perfect example of.Why we do a blueprint, right? There's so much to work out. There's so much to think about. There's so many layers and levels to every story. And, uh, you know, we, we heard you today, Andrew, sort of going, well, I don't know. I haven't thought about it. I don't know. I, I'll have to see, you know, that's, that's the work and being in that.[00:39:00] Discomfort and that not knowing mm-hmm. And the, all the possibilities and making your choices. That's, that's a work, right Sam? Like that's, it is, it's so fun. But yeah, it's mysteries are puzzles, right? Yeah. And we wanna guide the reader through the puzzle in a way that gives them maximum impact and maximum joy.For every reveal that we decide to put out there, right? We, we, we don't want to casually have a reveal. Everything is on purpose. Um, and so I was gonna say on, on the inside outline that you have, um, a parallel one, or, you know, if you make it even tighter just to flow the flow of events, you can have a, what really happened?Um, line which tracks what the villain is actually doing. And I do find that that can be really helpful because it does get overwhelming with figuring out, okay, we have assumptions. Yeah. And those assumptions are, you know, lead to action and this is how we get a repulsive plot. But those assumptions are.Not going to be the [00:40:00] actual thing that is the truth. And so we need to track what the truth is and what our villain is doing to stop our protagonist from stopping them because Yeah, forces of opposition, you know, so just for our listeners to clarify that makes sense. What Sam's talking about is a parallel inside outline is, is to literally do.An a three page outline for the, the villain? Yes, yes. Or to put a bullet point or a, a subpoint on the protagonists inside. Outline that. Tracks that, um, sometimes people color code that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, but the, that's why we keep this so tight because if you start making it nine pages or 15 pages and then you layer these things, all of a sudden you have a 30 page outline, and now you've just got one of those giant story grid things that I find to be impossible to, to manipulate.Like we still want this to be manipulatable, right. So that you [00:41:00] can. Hold it in your hands and see it and, and then get to a place where you say, I can write that story. I love this story. I can write this story. That's, so that's what we're going for. So, yeah. Um, Sam, could you maybe just summarize, um, Andrew will take some time to work on this next iteration to show me.Can you give him direction on key thing to think about and me direction on the key thing to look for? Yeah, of course. So the biggest thing is figure out what Seward's really, why he's really doing what he's doing and how it relates directly to Abby. Right. What is, what action can he take that is about her, and that's either protecting her or, you know.Um, killing someone close to her to scare her away, but then why, right? Mm-hmm. So figure out the, figure out what he's really doing, and then look and see what actions, what other actions would he take about who this other person [00:42:00] is that he's framing or manipulating, or blackmailing or whatever. And if that's a vampire, then.You know, why does that work when we, when it's revealed? Like, what else could be going on? That makes sense. Perhaps the vampires don't want women and suffragettes to have this power because it threatens the power that they have in society currently, or something like that, or mm-hmm. Whatever it is. But figure out what, what's really going on.That's your homework, that's your big homework. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, for the next iteration. More murder on the page, right? We need the attention to rise and we need to understand why Abby, as she takes her steps based on assumptions, what are those assumptions? Why is she so personally invested in this?Why doesn't she just give up, right? Because that's the big logical question that I always ask is for both the antagonist and your protagonist, why don't they just walk away? Why do they keep doing this when it gets hard, right? Because when someone's actively trying to [00:43:00] stop you as the protagonist is. For the antagonist, why would the antagonist not just be like, okay, this is too tough, right?Like, I'm, I'm out, uh, this is, my goal isn't going to be achieved. So why do they both keep going? And the answer is usually we're in too deep, right? We can't, the only way out is through, um, which is what the midpoint establishes. Usually. It's like, well, shoot, you know, I can't leave this story. I have to keep going.Right? So the three twists, right? We want the assumptions to be present on the inside outline. So we have a midpoint twist. We have an inciting incident that presents the mystery story question, murder usually. Mm-hmm. And then climactic twist, who is this fake villain? And then final villain, Seward. And then final, final twist.Mina is actually involved, right? And has been protecting her the whole time or whatever, right? Yeah. Okay. So on the page, assumptions is second part of that homework, but you have to figure out what really happened in order to have the assumptions, which are Yeah, not [00:44:00] right. Yeah. So drawing, drawing out those two timelines of the, what, what actually happened, timeline, and then the assumptions, timeline and how they, well, the assumptions are gonna be on the page, right?Those will be on your protagonist inside outline, right? Because it, it informs her actions. And so everything you have about her fighting to go to med school and like all these things, all that works. All we're doing is just tweaking it a little bit so that the mystery is more. Front and center, and she's taking action based on, okay, I have this clue, what do I do?Now I have this clue. What do I do now? What stands in the way of each time I do this? Oops, I'm wrong about that. So what now? You know? Okay. And in the meantime it's clear that her personal stakes are rising and she is becoming a target. There's more attempts on her life and, and you know, then what? Right.Once you have a target on your back, you can't run. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. Make it scarier. That's your homework. Yeah, I do. I do. I have to put her in [00:45:00] peril. I have to put her in peril. Right? You do. Yeah. Yeah. And the final thing I'll mention about this is when you actually get to writing the way that you, even if it's, even if the actions are a little less intense, right?We don't actually have an assassin coming at her every page because we'd get bored with that. So through interiority, through inner thought, she's going to think about what she's scared of throughout the entire book. Mm-hmm. It's not just gonna be, oh, I assume this thing. It's like I assume this thing. And also I'm terrified because you know what, if this is about that, and that's how you create those red herrings too, is because she's going to make assumptions about what's happening, and those assumptions will be based in fear.Right. Love it. Right. That makes sense. Love it. That makes sense. Thank you. My God. You're so welcome. Love this story. Can't wait to read it. Are you still with us, Andrew? You're not. You're not walking away. Right. You're not like, I'm in too deep now. No. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Just past the midpoint. Yeah, I was gonna say good.Good. No, that's why, that's why I'm, that's why I'm grinning so [00:46:00] much. It's like, it's like, ‘cause we're talking about this as if it's an actual, real thing. It's not just, it's not just an idea that I've, I've, I've had and been, I've been telling my wife about this is an actual, this is an actual thing I'm talking with people about.Um, and so this is, this is real. This is. It is real. It's exciting. Um, we will, uh, see how this unfolds for Andrew and Sam, I just wanna thank you so much for joining us and talking about all this. Um, and I'm gonna tell our listeners that if you want this kind of twisty help, um, that's Samantha's website, which is samantha skull.com and that's SKAL.She has a really cool, um, very inexpensive twist. Course, which you can, um, take. It's just awesome. And it's, um, she got some blueprint stuff on there, all kinds of things. And you can learn also about the retreat that she runs with carrieSavage@shadowsandsecrets.com. And you can go to Thriller [00:47:00] Fest and see all of the big work she's doing for this community of writers out in the world.So Sam, thank you for coming on. Oh, thank you so much for having me. And I just wanna say, Jenny, the reason that I focused, I mean, yes, I love this stuff and I have, I've loved it my whole life, but I listened to you. This was your. To focus in on what I love and I did. And it's just the best I get to wake up every day and talk about murder, which sounds like a terrible hobby, but I love it.So here we are. I know. That's why I talk about you all the time. Maybe that's it. ‘cause you listen toI, I, uh, I push people a lot harder now, let's put it that way. Um. Amazing. That's, that is my craft. But thank you Andrew, again, for being so willing to be doing this in public. It's not easy for those listening just to be on the hot seat like this for so long, so often really hard. So, um, you, [00:48:00] huge, huge shout out to Andrew and shout.Um, just for our listeners, thanks for tuning in and let's get back to work. This is a public episode. 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Andrew Lands on a Single POV—and Must Choose an EndingJennie Nash coaches podcast producer Andrew Parella through the third “hot seat” session of his Blueprint revision, where he gains clarity that his protagonist should be the sole point-of-view character, with other perspectives delivered through discovered diaries, letters, and papers from her mother Mina and her uncle Van Helsing. After completing a stronger Inside Outline, Andrew understands that each scene's “point” must be expressed through his protagonist's meaning-making, which makes the story feel more alive but reveals key issues: an ending that doesn't yet pay off and several underused setups. Jennie urges Andrew to leverage Mina's influence earlier, make vampires more present in the world, and more. They focus on raising stakes, making the “all is lost” moment harder, and forcing a decisive, morally resonant ending beyond simply solving the murders.Visit Andrew's website: https://www.andrewparrella.com#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Need to play catch-up?Check out Andrew's first hot seat coaching session with Jennie: Check out Andrew's second hot seat coaching session with Jennie: TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jenny Nash and you're listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast. The place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a hot seat coaching episode where we work through a real writing challenge in real time.Jennie: Today I am joined again by Andrew Perella, who is the podcast producer stepping out from Behind the Mic, and this is the third time we've been talking about his blueprint revision. So if you haven't heard episodes. One and two focused on this. You should definitely go catch up on them. I'll link to those in the show notes and where we left Andrew, I feel like this is a, um, a soap opera or something.Jennie: Um. You were going to go off and do some exploration in order to decide on your point of view, uh, narrator, [00:01:00] and you were debating lots, lots of different ideas. So let's just start by asking how that went.Andrew: Uh, it went well. I mean, it was, uh, it was really productive too. Go through the exercise that you played, that you, uh, that you, uh, put to me.Andrew: So the, uh, you had left it to. So to help me identify which POVs were gonna be most important to take the three characters that I had been identifying and kind of draw out an, an outline for each of them. I didn't do a full inside out, inside outline for, for each character. I just kinda did. Sure, sure. A bunch of bullets.Andrew: Here's the, here's the story through this person's, uh, through this person's perspective, through this person's perspective. And as I did that it became very clear that two of the characters, while very important to the story, I think will ultimately Billy Ancillary and the primary. Protagonist Abriana, I think [00:02:00] is going to be, uh, the sole POV for the book.Andrew: Um, so that was kind of exciting to. Get some clarity on that. And now that I know that a lot of other things come in, come into focus a little bit, it's like, okay, I can spend a little bit less time, you know, developing this scene. That's something we could do with a letter or a diary entry that she reads or some, or something to that effect.Andrew: And so, as I was listening back to our last session, I was thinking about, you had talked about other devices, um, that we can use to incorporate. Other POVs. Um, and so I think there can be diaries and letters and papers from, um, from the other, from the other characters. A Brianna's mother, Mina, and uh, and uh, uh, van Helsing, her uncle, her, um.Andrew: And I think that she can discover these papers, these letters, these diaries over the course, uh, [00:03:00] of the story to learn more information, to help her clear certain hurdles, um, that will, uh, that will present themselves to her. Um,Jennie: so, um, I was really curious because. In my mind, I thought one of the people you were considering as the narrator of the story was a Adrianna's brother.Jennie: And so when I went to review your notes, you know, you'd sketched out these, uh, mini, mini outlines for what, what the scenes or the, you know, story would look like from that. And, and it wasn't the brother, so that was interesting to me. It was like, okay, so you really were considering a lot of different.Jennie: Characters to tell the story. And the other thing that struck me was, well, I could immediately tell which one had the most heat. That's the best way I can describe it. Right? Yeah. It's like there's an energy or a a, a vibrancy [00:04:00] or the other ones were good, but there was a flatness to them. Did Is that what you felt?Andrew: Yeah, I felt like. There wasn't enough there it felt like. It felt like there were other stories that I could create that I could invent for these characters, but they were less. Were less relevant to my protagonist.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah.Andrew: And so I felt like that helped me kinda, kinda focus in on her a little bit.Jennie: The other thing that struck me was, um, Mina, who's a Brianna's mom.Jennie: Um, hers was really, it felt really whole to me. It, it was like, oh, she's got a whole story, a whole backstory. Well, it would be a backstory now, um, but. You know, she felt like a really 3D character with Okay. A a lot of, um, like I liked her and I was interested in her and I could [00:05:00] see a lot of places where her story would intersect with Aub Brianna's that you could use.Jennie: So it felt to me like that was a really useful exercise for you to do. Is that where you landed?Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah, no, it really helped me explore who these characters are, because these characters are gonna be, as I say, integral to the protagonist, integral to the story and to the novel, but they're just not going to be carrying the weight of, of, of primary POV.Andrew: And so I think it, but it was really helpful to flesh those out, flesh those characters out a little bit more. And I did have a lot of fun. Building out Mina's timeline, Mina's outline as it related to the, to the primary events of the novel. So that, so that was, that was a lot of fun. And I'm, I, I think, I think the outlines might have betrayed the fact that I'm still trying to figure out how Van Helsing, what Van Sing's relation.Andrew: Is to the events of the story.Jennie: Yeah, maybe that, because that one [00:06:00] definitely felt the, the most flat of all of them. Which is interesting because he's a, an existing character and an existing story in a way. So he's kind of already been fleshed out a bit. But, um, so it sounded when you reported. The outcome to me, it sounded like you were quite sure that there was no more debate.Jennie: You really felt like this is it, is that true? AreAndrew: you, I am sure there is no more debate this week, uh, about that.Jennie: I was gonna sayAndrew: that question.Jennie: Um, okay. So what you did next was, the next bit of homework was. If you can land on that to flesh out the whole inside outline, which you did. Um, and I was really struck Andrew by how different this was from your first iteration were.Jennie: Do you feel that?Andrew: Yes, yes. Um, and I think part of that is I, I [00:07:00] had an incomplete understanding of. Of the inside outline when I was first rolling through it, and I, I was, I was struggling a little bit, but I also have a much better idea of what the story is now than I did a couple weeks ago when I did, when I, when I, when I wrote that initial, uh, inside outline.Andrew: SoJennie: what did you not understand about it? I'm curious.Andrew: I think, I think some of, like some of the notes you and KJ gave me after that first one kind of, uh, were about the point. So there's the, there's the, the, the, the scene or the plot and what is the point of this scene or plot. And I, I had difficulty, I think, expressing what the, what the importance of these, of these plot moments were.Andrew: Um, and I think it was a note that KJ gave me. It's like, try, try writing the point of the plot. Through the eyes of your protagonist, how does this affect me as the protagonist? How, how [00:08:00] does this affect me? And so I was looking at kind of like, so I think I had a, a more full outline in that regard because I did try and.Andrew: Internalized for Abriana what these po plot points meant for her and how they would change or affect the decision she made next.Jennie: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. Um, because what a lot of people get wrong is they think the point is another chance to explain why they're writing that scene, why they, the author, um, are writing that scene and it the point.Jennie: Of it is what meaning is this character making of what they're experiencing in the plot. So, um, you're having understood that and understood your story. When I say it was so different, the, I mean, this is the progression. The, the first iteration was, okay, this is an interesting plot. These are interesting characters, but they're not.Jennie: They're not, there's no [00:09:00] there, there in a way. Right. And this one I read and I, I was like, oh, there's, you know, this is good. You're starting to, to really weave, um, uh, a tail. And, um, it feels weighty. And I was really excited. It felt. Alive to me. Is that, did you have that sense?Andrew: I, I'm really glad to hear you say that.Andrew: ‘cause Yeah, it's feeling much more alive to me as well. And seeing, and seeing all of these points, seeing, seeing this outline put together, it's like, oh, this isn't, this isn't a gimmick anymore. This isn't just an idea. This is a real thing that I can, I can turn into a novel that I can turn into a manuscript.Andrew: So, yeah. Yeah. It's feeling, it's feeling much more real now.Jennie: So there's two things that I saw in reading it through, and these are the type of things that will be revealed when you have something solid. One is the ending isn't [00:10:00] paying off yet, and you know that like you, you said, you know. Some ending scene here or something, you know?Jennie: Yeah. Ending tk. Yeah. And then, um, so that, that ending isn't landing. And then, um, there's a under utilization. Of the character setup that you, you've, you've set something up that you're then not using, you're not leveraging, and there's three places where that's happening. So I wanna talk about those three places and then we'll talk about the ending.Jennie: ‘cause those three places are going to inform your ending. Um, so the first one is in fact the mom. Aub Brianna's mom. Mm-hmm. So now that we know her whole backstory and her unde deadness and, um, that she may in fact be manipulating events in [00:11:00] real time, uh, for Aubrianna in story time, um. She's got strong opinions, she's got enemies, she's got people defending her, she's got secrets.Jennie: Like she's got a whole deal going on, and it feels as though she only really enters the story very, very late and, and at a moment when Mina really needs her to enter the story. So it feels a little under earned when that hap when that happens. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense?Andrew: Yeah. I agree. Yeah.Jennie: What's interesting to me is it's, it's all there.Jennie: You have everything there to use. So now it's just a question of looking at your outline and saying, okay, where earlier can this mom, she's not gonna appear, but can she have influence? Can she have impact? Even just Mina's relationship with her absence is not there.Outro: Mm-hmm.Jennie: And it [00:12:00] strikes me well, I'll let you respond.Andrew: Um, no, I was noticing that like, Mina wasn't terribly present in, in the outline that I, that I drafted. There were just a couple of scenes that, uh, included or, um, alluded to her. Um, before, before the end and, and to really build that relationship up, I'm like, I need to find other places, as you say, to, to bring her in, to have abriana reflect on her.Andrew: Maybe she finds, maybe she finds the diary earlier in, in the story and learns a little bit more about her over the course of the story. So I think, I think that relationship, um, um, needs to be. Be a little bit more developed, as you say. Yeah.Jennie: Yeah. And, and does Mina Pine for her? She's not allowed to speak of her in her father's house.Jennie: Um, but it, the thing that struck me particularly was you have this [00:13:00] fantastic new place, at least new to me, um, to open the story, which is Van ING's funeral. Do I have that right? Yeah.Andrew: Yes.Jennie: Um, so this, the book opens with this young woman protagonist going to this funeral of someone who she admired and who understood her and who, um, wanted for her, what she wanted for herself.Jennie: So it's, it's a really emotional moment. For her, and it strikes me that she would be thinking about her dead mother at a funeral. Yeah. Right. Especially a funeral of this guyOutro: mm-hmm.Jennie: Who played a role in her mother's life and death.Andrew: Yep.Jennie: Um, and it, so it's, when I say underutilized and everything's already there, it's like you've got, you've got the opportunity.Jennie: Right. So Right to let us, that's a [00:14:00] moment we can. Feel Mina's absence, we can feel a Brianna's response to that absence. Um, maybe the impact of the, the mom and the situation on her. Mm-hmm. Um, that's just one example.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Um. That was kind of really, uh, neon lights for me. Um, and obviously the inside outline is three sentences about a scene, right?Jennie: It's not the whole scene. Right. But, um, uh, so do you, do you see. How, what you could do there if you did a pass through the inside outline, just thinking, how can I better use Mina?Andrew: Yes. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, uh, I think you're spot on there. ‘cause I really wanna, I really wanna open the, the book with, with a, with the funeral.Andrew: Um, and of course that would bring up. Thoughts, um, of, of, of a deceased [00:15:00] parent to, to anyone. Um, so yeah, I think there's a lot, a lot to be had there. And maybe there's even, maybe she even like catches sight of a mysterious, uh, a mysterious veiled woman at the back of the church who is also there to, uh, pay her respects and, you know, maybe.Andrew: Maybe this mysterious, this mysterious figure appears in other places over the course of, uh, over the course of the events, um, and ca and kind of catches, uh, a adrianna's attention. I think there are, there are a lot of ways to, to, to, to, to manage that.Jennie: Yeah. Or even just a feeling that something is there.Jennie: That you can't see.Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Um, you know, uh, that's a, well, we'll get to the connection to that other piece in a minute. But the, um, the, the bigger point here is the, the role of anything in a story, an antagonist, a, a character, a situation is [00:16:00] to put pressure on the protagonist. For her to make choices she either doesn't wanna make or can't make, right?Jennie: Like stories about choice. So what makes the choice harder? What makes it, um, more potent for that person? What raises the stakes on that choice? So when I say do a pass through the inside outline, just thinking about Mina, it's like, how can you use Mina to pressure, uh, aubriana and, and pressure can be. My mother would be so disappointed in me, or mm-hmm.Jennie: I, I can't let my mother down again. Or, um, I'm so pissed she's not here that I'm gonna do this reckless thing. Like, there's lots of ways that that can manifest. Um, it doesn't have pressure to do the right thing. It can be oppositional pressure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you know, she's got, it can't just be. [00:17:00] The way you have it set up, I think you would be really missing an opportunity if you didn't use that more.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Um, so that's super connected to the second I said there were three kind of underutilized things and the second is the vampires. So you've made a decision about do they exist, um, and. They appear now almost nowhere in the story.Andrew: Yeah, I think only, only in a couple of points. Um,Jennie: yeah. Um, and, and by appear, I don't mean literally, here are the vampires.Jennie: It, it could be at the suffragette meeting, they're arguing about the vampires or there's, um, you know, uh, newspaper article everybody's talking about, or there's gonna be a talk. That they have to, you know, uh, disperse early ‘cause there's gonna be a talk about the vampires [00:18:00] or, you know, like mm-hmm. Just a pres, the presence or the sense of them.Jennie: What are people doing saying, worried about, um, their, that needs to be amped up.Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: And when I say that needs to be amped up, that's not, that's not my opinion about your story. It's the story about vampires. Yes. So, uh, I mean actually it's not really a story about vampires. I that's not true. It's not, but it's a story with vampires.Jennie: So therefore, story ofvampires.Andrew: Yeah, yeah.Jennie: We gotta have the vampires, right?Andrew: Yes. It's a primary component of the story. Um, and, and there needs to be more of it. And I, and like, I think. There are a lot of opportunities, as you say, sitting down at breakfast and opening the newspaper. There, there could be articles about, about vampires in the suffragette meetings, there'll be things about, there'll be talk about vampires in, in class among her classmates.Andrew: Um, there'll be, there'll be gossiping, uh, there'll be [00:19:00] gossip about vampires, um, and the merits of this community. Um, and so I think, yes, there are a lot of ways that we, I can bring, I can make the vampires more present, um, and. The nuanced conversation happening around the community. Um. To, to, to kind of draw, draw some, and, and help draw some parallels to, to, to modern events as well.Jennie: Well, and that's why I say underutilized. Yeah. That's what these topics are because there is such richness there and that your villain is, um, using fear of one to, um, terrorize another. Mm-hmm. Fear of one group to terrorize another group. He, he's playing these two, um. Um, misunderstood or, um, marginalized groups against each other.Jennie: Mm-hmm. So it, it feels like it's right. Should be right there, but it's, yeah, but it's not.Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: And then s [00:20:00] same topic. Um, my deeper understanding of Mina, which I got through the, your test outline showed me that the undead are, um, have a agency in this world that I was not. I understood better, and so it made me wonder, are there other vampires doing things, appearing trying to influence?Jennie: Are they rising up in any way? Are any of the murdered people connected? Are there rumors? Are there, you know, did any other person around say my. Uh, I don't know. Mother was a vampire too, or like, I dunno, like is it, is Mina's role as an intermediary? I mean, she's in a special situation, but I was just trying to like, is there a hierarchy [00:21:00] of impact that different vampire beings can make?Jennie: Am I, am I asking that?Andrew: Yeah, no, I, I hear what, I hear what you're saying and you're, you're right. I mean, I have been thinking about, um, vampires within the suffragette movement, you know, helping the cause, um. I've been playing with the idea of whether, whether there should be a vampire in the school that she's attending as well, and maybe she, maybe that vampire is trying to keep their identity, her identity hidden.Andrew: Um, but I like your idea about like, how are the victims related to. Vampires. I think I've, I think I've been, I've taken pains to relate them all to the suffragette movement.Jennie: Yeah.Andrew: But I think what would make them really appetizing victims for the murderer [00:22:00] would be for them to have some relation to vampires as well.Jennie: Right. And it doesn't have to be so on the nose, like I just said, oh, I'm my mother too. It could be,Outro: right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.Jennie: Oh, my, my father's obsessed with them, or, um, right. My father says, don't talk about them, or, you know. Mm-hmm. Relationship to the idea of them. That's something I wanna reflect back to, that I noticed that I thought was really cool.Jennie: And I don't know how intentional you were about this, but you've got this. Medical school, a Brianna's going to this school for women and the suffragette movement. And there's an overlap of those two communities. So a lot of the suffragettes are connected to the medical world. And you have a lot of the young women in [00:23:00] medical spaces.Jennie: So there's, there's the asylum. There's, it's the places people are having internships or being hired to be the receptionist or right, like the people are, which makes total sense. If you have a medical school for women and you're trying to get them out into the world, they're gonna be in those roles at all these different spaces and they're, that was what was interesting to me is that you have a, um, very organic.Jennie: Reason why these young women are brushing up against vampire spaces,Andrew: and I don't know how intentional that was, but I, I needed them to brush up against the murderer.Jennie: And, and he's in vampire spacesAndrew: and he's in vampire and medical spaces.Jennie: Yes.Andrew: And so that, that was my primary rationale, but, um, uh, but [00:24:00] I I, I, I like what you're saying as well.Andrew: Um,Jennie: I just noticed it, and it also occurred to me that Aubriana could notice it,Andrew: that the victims have, uh, are, are showing up in vampire spaces.Jennie: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because the way that you have it right now. I actually didn't write this in my notes, it's just coming to me while we're talking. Mm-hmm. Um, her solving of this crime is a little bit, um, circumstantial and physical.Jennie: Yeah. She's in the right place or she puts herself in the right place, or she gets an object or she sees. See something. Mm-hmm. But I think that there could also be two other drivers of her being the one to solve the problem, uh, which would be intellectual. She's putting things together that other people are not.Jennie: Yeah. Putting together. And [00:25:00] you, you have her as she's the top student in this class who's failing now because she's so obsessed with this. So she could be putting her intellect. It that would be really natural, but also this other sense connected to her mother, this six sixth sense, if you will, you know, understanding of other worlds, other creatures, other forces that could inform her, um, understanding of the crimes as well.Jennie: So. Now that I'm saying this out loud, I feel like this is a really important part of, um, making the, you know, we want the person to solve this crime to be uniquely qualified to solve this crime. Mm-hmm. So, not to, well, anyone in her position would've figured it out. Um, it's because of her background, ‘cause of her connection to her mom, ‘cause of her dad and [00:26:00] her brother, you know, because of her aptitudes, you know, because of all these things she solves.Jennie: Yeah, the crime. Um, and so that goes back to both her connection to, well, well, amplifying the mother in the story and amplifying the vampires in the story. Um, so, and that actually goes to then one of my other points, and I'm jumping over. Well, I'll jump over. Okay. So the, the last underutilized. Element is the brother.Jennie: So the brother got seriously demoted from possibly narrating the whole story to sort of being this loser, like spineless, you know, whatever. Which I love because it's just such a great con. He's like, oh no, don't, don't upset father. And, and you know, she is like, get outta my way. Like, it's [00:27:00] great. It's a great um, contrast.Jennie: But I feel like you've, you've got him positioned to do something really stupid, um, right. Or to do something really insensitive. Um, he can, at the moment, he just reacts, he could make a choice that really impacts her, that really changes the story.Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Like, does he stand? With Adrianna or their father when it really counts.Jennie: Mm-hmm. That's, that's kind of the choice. Yeah. That he's, you've got him, and so I feel like, again, underutilized, where can the brother really throw a wrench into what a adrianna's trying to do for herself, where he maybe thinks he's helping, or either that, or he is unable to rise to the occasion and therefore hurts her, but mm-hmm.Jennie: There gonna be a million ways to do that. But you've [00:28:00] got, so just like with the mother and the vampires or the brother, you've got a set up that you could have a huge payoff from that you, that you've sort of just left there. Do you see that?Andrew: Yes. Yeah. No, absolutely. Quince definitely took a back seat from when we were last, when we were last discussing him.Andrew: Um. Yeah. But I feel like there there is more. He can take more weight. He, there is much more, much more we I could do with him. Um, and like I think, I think I definitely see him as letting Aubrianna down at some point and like siding with their father at it at some crucial point instead of with her. Um, I also see him being kind of ultimately the collateral damage.Andrew: From the final decision that Aubriana makes, um, if she chooses to be with her mother at the end, she, [00:29:00] um, is, uh, then choosing, um, to never have contact with her father who has made that ultimatum clear. And Quince is not ready to make that decision. And so. You know, kind of falls in line with, with his, with his father.Andrew: With their father. So I see, I see him playing at this point, he's playing a small role, but I think he could play a larger role. Um, yeah, yeah. As you say, presenting challenges or trying to help, but actually, actually making things worse or something like that.Jennie: So when you go back through the inside outline.Jennie: So we're just continuing to tighten the screws and shore up all the holes. Mm-hmm. So for those listening who may be revising their own outlines or their books, um. You wanna think, what do I, what do I have that I'm not using? What thread do I, well, maybe that's not the right metaphor. It's like, what seed did I plant that I didn't harvest?Jennie: Right? Like, what, [00:30:00] what do I have here? What opportunities for tension? Opportunities for, again, pressure on the protagonist, opportunities to make things bad for them, um, and. You know, that, that sense of her, like she doesn't really suffer very much in this story. Mm-hmm. She doesn't really, um, lose a lot. Um, and that brings me now finally to, um, the ending.Jennie: So the, the question is, how do you. How do you land on an ending? Um, and, and oftentimes the work that you did before this, the, the sense of, well, where does the story start and where does this end that bookend sense of we're, we're trying to, it's solve a, a murder in this story, but more than that, we're trying to, there's a young woman who's going through a massive [00:31:00] transformation and becoming something that, um.Jennie: She desperately wants to be that everything is keeping her from being. But the choice that you have right now, the story is leading to is to be with her mom or not. And in some ways, that's a perfect bookend with a story that starts with a funeral. The choice to basically. Live or die, right?Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: But it, um, it struck me as that that's not the story you're writing, that that's, that's never been the story you're writing.Jennie: She's, it's not a story about, like, this could easily, you could just easily decide to make this a story about a young woman who. The absence of the mom is so profound in their life that they can't function or, [00:32:00] um, you know, uh, live or love or all the things that one would want to do in life. Um, you know, sort of a yearning to be gone, or a yearning to be with that absent person.Jennie: This could be that story, um, where mm-hmm. You know, it starts with this funeral and maybe there's a, a yearning there. Like, everybody I love is dead. Everybody who got me is dead. The only way that I'm gonna be with the people who understand me is, is also to to die. You know, like, it, it really obviously would change the texture and shape and everything, the story.Jennie: And I know that's not the story you wanna write ‘cause it's. Nothing about your why or your point or, right. So when you're struggling with the ending, I always go back to those things. To the point. Yeah. And, and re reread them. Why are you doing this? Mm-hmm. What do you wanna say? Why does this matter to you?Jennie: [00:33:00] Mm-hmm. And, you know, it really is a question about, um. Uh, a monster is a person who doesn't change when the times change or when change is the right thing to do. Um, so it feels to me like the ending still needs to be the choice of who's, who becomes a monster or right. Or, um, is that the question?Jennie: She's not in danger of becoming a monster, is she? She'sAndrew: not, I don't think. Not as, not as the, the story currently stands, but obviously she, she, she goes through change and she can accept or resist that change. Um, obviously to do the change takes, requires a lot of work.Jennie: But [00:34:00] I think you would be short changing what you've set up.Jennie: If the change is simply, I wanna be a doctor. Yeah. And Yay, I became a doctor. Doctor and I got the bad guy. Mm-hmm. Right. There's something thin about that. Yeah. Because at the root of your story are some moral choices,Andrew: right.Jennie: That other people are not making.Andrew: Right.Jennie: Uh, so it feels like something bigger has to be at risk for her.Jennie: So I wanna become a doctor, is the plot level, you know, and my dad doesn't want to, and, and now all these things are preventing me from doing well in school. And, um, you know, all of that, the. The real story point, the emotional point, the, the thing we're gonna read [00:35:00] for is, uh, you know, that, um, that moral choice,Andrew: right?Jennie: What am I gonna risk to become the thing that I want? You know what?Andrew: Yeah,Jennie: what, what, um, what do I lose if I become the thing I want?Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: And, and you could lose, um, people you love, you could lose. Um, I mean, there's so many things that you could lose. You could lose your integrity. You could lose, um, your, uh, innocence.Jennie: You could lose. Um, but I think that, that it shouldn't be quite so easy for her. Mm-hmm.Jennie: Does that, does that resonate with you?Andrew: Yeah, no, I absolutely hear what you're saying. I absolutely hear what you're saying. Uh, and as you, as you're speaking, I'm trying to think through what some of her other motivations are. And while [00:36:00] yes, she's motivated to become a doctor, she's also just motivated to be an independent womanJennie: independent.Jennie: So what does that, that's, what does that mean?Andrew: I think in her world it means independent of. The choices the men around her are making for her on her behalf and being able to, uh, and being able to embrace her full agency.Jennie: So there's a moment in this story when she's lost complete agency. She's literally locked up.Jennie: She can't. She cannot do anything.Outro: Yeah.Jennie: Um, and it, and it struck me in that moment. You gave her a super easy out. Did you notice that?Andrew: I, yeah, I think, I think, I think it was a fairly, a fairly easy out, um, I don't remember exactly what it was.Jennie: Yeah. She contacts her brother and her brother.Andrew: Yeah, that's right.Jennie: Whatever. And it's like, okay. But that struck me as the [00:37:00] moment, the all is lost moment. You know? Like, okay, literally this is a young woman who seeks to be independent and have agency, and she's, yes, her actions have caused her to be in a place where she's locked, locked up. She cannot leave, she cannot do anything.Jennie: She can't use her brain. Well, she can use her brain. She can't. Well, like I was saying before, she can't put herself in the physical place to solve the. The murders were to now protect herself. So what does she have left? She has her intellect and that other sense. Spiritual, if you, whatever. I'm just calling it spiritual as shorthand.Jennie: Sure. Connection to what, what we can't, yeah. See or know.Outro: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Um, and what hap what is, what happens in that moment. That's really, I think that's where you get your ending.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: BecauseAndrew: I, I feel like that, yeah, you put your finger out. That is a pivotal scene. Where she's at her lowest point. And how does she get, and you're right, I I, I took the easy [00:38:00] way out there.Andrew: I think there needs to be a more difficult way for her to get herself out of there or find some other form of assistance to help her, to help her out of that. And I don't know what that is yet.Jennie: Yeah. And it, it's a really typical thing that happens, which is. You created this character and you love her and you don't want harm to come to her.Jennie: Yeah. And you don't, you want her to get everything that she wants, you know, you're fighting for her as you create her. Yeah. But she's gotta suffer. Mm-hmm. Um, and the, and the more that suffering resonates with, you know, what is at stake here, um, the better. The better it's gonna be the be the bigger pay emotional payoff it's gonna be for the reader because the reader, you know, is thinking I too am in a certain [00:39:00] cage.Jennie: You know, I too, uh, you know, am making certain decisions. And if I, if I make these choices and lose these things, like, I don't know if I can tolerate that, um, or I've been tolerating that my whole life. What would it mean to tolerate. Less or um. Right. Right. You know, so if that's the place where you really, the resonance of your story has to come is what, what is she gonna give up or lose or risk to get what she wants?Jennie: Mm-hmm. And, and if she, if that trade off happens. What sort of peace or not peace does she, does she land in? Mm-hmm. Um, right. So, yeah. Um, you have the plot of level of this story really in good shape. I know. We can make it [00:40:00] much better. The twists can get twist. Sure. And, uh, cl more, is cleverer a word? Maybe clever.Jennie: Like, you know, they're a little crude right now. Yeah. Um, so they can get, when I being twister, just like, Ooh, I didn't see that coming. Or, you know, um, and right. Right now it's little Mina swoops in at the right minute. Mm-hmm. The brother swoops in at the right minute. So when you go back through. So here's the work.Jennie: Yeah. Ask yourself, how can I use the mother more? How can I use the brother more to put pressure on the protagonist?Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: To make her choice harder, not easier. Um, and how can I use the vampire existence of the vampires and who believes in them? Who's fighting for them? Who, who gets them? Who doesn't?Jennie: What does Mina's relationship to? To those three [00:41:00] entities?Andrew: Yep.Jennie: And then given all that, how can I make the ending be a choice for what the story's really about and what I really care to convey, and not just a resolution of the murders?Andrew: Yep. That makes sense.Jennie: Um,Andrew: just making some notesJennie: here. There's so many cheesy ways this story could end.Andrew: Yeah. And obvi. Yeah. I obviously wanna avoid all of those, but, um, yeah.Jennie: So these are, but you might have to, you might have to run through a bunch of cheesy endings Yeah. And reject them. And like, and you know, that's not a bad exercise to do. Like, okay. Cheesy ending. What number one? You know, she graduates at the top of her class.Jennie: She finds the murderer, um, you know, some handsome, smart, you know, man who thinks she's awesome, swoops in and marries her instead of her father's [00:42:00] clerk. LikeAndrew: Right.Jennie: You know, all the things. Yeah. And. She has a portal in her house to connect with her mother all the time. You know, like you could like name every cheesy ending possible and but then de define why that wouldn't be satisfying.Jennie: Right. OrOutro: Yeah.Jennie: Why you would neverOutro: mm-hmm.Jennie: That's not a bad way to, to land on an ending. Yeah. Um, ‘cause the satAndrew: iden identify what? I don't want to help me identify what I do want.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. And, and to think about this is also where genre comes into it. What is the expectation, right, of a story like this?Jennie: What do you want the reader to feel mm-hmm. At the end? And, um, you know, if you want the reader to feel inspired and uplifted, like, I'm not, I'm just making that up. That doesn't necessarily mean the ending is. Uplifting. Right. You know, [00:43:00] it, it has to do with the, the choices that character makes. So.Outro: Mm-hmm.Jennie: I mean, it's a big question of how, of how, how does it end?Jennie: Um, you might, you may, you may or may not get there this time, butAndrew: mm-hmm.Jennie: Um, I would force yourselfOutro: Yeah.Jennie: To put an ending on the outline, even if you don't like it, even if you know it's not right. So that, um. You can see the ripples through the whole thing and And that'll help you make that decision like, yeah, no, that can't be the ending.Jennie: ‘cause then this cool thing I have set up comes to nothing or Right. What's the point of having her had to struggle with this thing if she just gets it at the end?Andrew: Mm-hmm. Yep. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.Jennie: So what I love about where you are right now is you've answered. All the fundamental questions about [00:44:00] the the murder plot.Andrew: Right?Jennie: You know, we, we know who the antagonist is. We know his motivations, we know his, what he does. We know his mo, we know, you know, all of those things. Um, we understand. The physical, like I feel like you've done a really good job of almost blocking like a play, like blocking on a stage. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, like, okay, this woman and I could really feel that like she left her purse and then the thing, you know, like you've got the who's standing where, when all of that's in place.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: So now it's really, um, um. Tightening these threads. Mm-hmm. Putting the pressure on her. Mm-hmm. So that there's a gut wrenching choice at the end about, uh, the moral center of, of the story. Yep. [00:45:00] That's, that's what the work is. Easy.Andrew: Piece of cake. Piece of cake. I'll have it on your desk tomorrow morning. Oh myJennie: gosh. Um, I mean, another thing that I would suggest is. Going to look at the books you love.Andrew: Mm.Jennie: And just read through the endings, you know, like books, you know well and love and mm-hmm. Read through the endings and remind yourself why, why was the emotional payoff so big there?Jennie: Why did I love that book? Why did I, you know, just to marinate in, in the, um, in a good ending, how a good ending plays. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, it'll be fun.Andrew: Can I have more than three pages for my next insight? My next version of the outline?Jennie: Um, I thought you were gonna say, can I have more than three weeks? Um, [00:46:00] so I think the way we have it set up, you've got a, a little more than three weeks for this work. Okay. Um, to, to really dig in and do this work. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with, um. No. No.Andrew: Oh. Oh, man. That's cruel. That isJennie: cruel,Andrew: Diddy. I know,Jennie: I know.Jennie: And the reason that I'm gonna go with no is that you don't have your ending yet. And what's the point of my saying? Yeah, Andrew, write nine pages. In fact, make your, make your outline. You know, go to 30 pages. Why don't you just because this, you haven't solved. Solved it.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: But here's, here's what I'm gonna say.Jennie: Okay? If you can email me and say, this is where I have all the power, I have so much power. If you can email me and say, this is the ending. [00:47:00]Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Then I will give you permission mission to, and it doesn't actually even matter what it is. You just have to choose, choose something, because it could change, butAndrew: yeah.Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.Jennie: Something that you feel like obscene in a point. So the point is why it matters to Abriana.Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: That feels like a logical, solid ending then. You could take it, I would say up to 10 pages and you're gonna love it. It's gonna be so fun. It's such a fun moment. You feel so free. You're like, wait, look, now I can put in all this stuff.Jennie: Um, everybody asks the same question, it's hilarious. Um, but the point I'll just for our listeners, the point of this particular tool is to keep it small so you can solve the big building block problems. Before you bake them into something bigger, because [00:48:00] just going bigger with the problems baked in doesn't solve the problems.Jennie: Having more room to figure out your ending doesn't help you figure out your ending. ‘cause the work you have to do is in your brain and your heart. It's not actually on the page. So it's really a decision you have to make and the failure of many, um, many stories is that the writer didn't, no, they didn't decide, they didn't make a choice.Jennie: They didn't want their character to suffer. They didn't wanna, um, put that point so boldly there that some people would despise them for it. Or argue with them or throw the book across the room. Like they don't wanna, that's the whole write big thing. They don't mm-hmm. The writer doesn't wanna choose. And so therefore they don't allow their character to choose.Jennie: And, and we don't wanna choose [00:49:00] because it's, it's actually really hard that, and that's the reason why we love. Novels because they give us the experience of what it would be like to be so decisive in what we believe or think or know or value that we live our lives with that kind of integrity or you know, we don't have to.Jennie: It's like we get to sit in an armchair and watch other people suffer to learn about the world and ourselves, and we don't have to actually really do it. And, and then when it comes down in our lives to our actually really doing it, we realize how very difficult it is to, to choose and to sacrifice. And so that the work is, that's why I say it's in your head and your heart.Jennie: It's, it's not, um, it's not just, it's not the plot. It's not strategic, it's not intellectual. It's really, it's really what do I, what do I believe? Um. [00:50:00] How, how, how far am I willing to go to stand by this point that I've said matters so much to me. So, um, you could send me that email this afternoon. You could send it to me in two days.Jennie: You'll notbeAndrew: ready this afternoon.Jennie: Uh, you, you should do it, um, soon though, because. My daughter's about to have a baby, and, and I might not see it then, and you'll be stuck in purgatory. So I'm putting, so this is the plot, putting pressure on, on you. I, I would say you got about five days.Andrew: Five days. Okay.Andrew: Come up with the ending.Jennie: Come up with the ending and, and like I said, it, it doesn't, you're not locked in for all eternity. Yeah. But, um. You gotta put a stake in the ground in order to make it work. Mm-hmm. You can put another stake in the ground later, you can unwind it later.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Um, that's obviously [00:51:00] the work of creativity.Jennie: You know, you might write this entire manuscript and change your mind again. That's all fine, but you do have to choose, um, because it's not gonna hold together if you don't choose. Mm-hmm. All right.Andrew: Okay.Jennie: Sorry.Andrew: That's alright.Andrew: I knew this wasn't gonna be easy. I knew this wasn't gonna be easy.Jennie: If it was easy, I mean.Andrew: What's, what's the point? What's the point of doing it if it's easy?Jennie: Totally. You're doing a great job, Andrew. ReallyAndrew: thank you.Jennie: Such a good job. The reason we are able to have such a rich conversation about these characters, this set up this world, is because you're creating a really rich and nuanced and interesting world.Jennie: I think it's fantastic. It just keeps getting better and better and better and, um, it's exciting. It's alive. It's great. So you're not that far. You're really not that far from being [00:52:00] done and being unleashed to like start writing, which is gonna be so fun. So,Outro: yeah.Jennie: Um, I mean, maybe you're secretly doing it anyway, and I'm just imagining that I have, I'm the puppet master.Jennie: We will, um, continue to bring our listeners along on this journey. Um. To see what happens, and it'll be really fun, uh, to, uh, to meet next and, um. And check it out. Um, all right, so for everybody listening, thanks for being here. Now let's get back to work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome to another Friday night episode of The Writing Community Chat Show! In our growing archive of over 400 interviews, we've had the pleasure of sitting down with everyone from brilliant indie authors to household names—and today's guest is nothing short of spectacular.Join us as we welcome New York Times best-selling author Essie Fox for a deep dive into the shadowy, mesmerising world of Gothic historical fiction. Essie shares her incredible journey from a 20-year career as a home-based illustrator to taking a leap of faith on a three-month creative writing course that changed her life.We unpack her brilliant passion project, Katherine—an audacious and emotional retelling of Wuthering Heights from the perspective of a ghost—and discuss how to find the spaces between the pages of classic literature. We also delve into the wild history of Lord Byron, the literary origins of the vampire, and how to balance meticulous historical research with deeply human character arcs.Plus, we've got an exciting update on our upcoming 12-week novel-writing challenge where the community is teaming up to write 800 words a day. Whether you are a dedicated historical fiction writer or just love a twisting, atmospheric tale, this episode is packed with inspiration.Thank you for tuning in and helping make us one of the top writing podcasts in the UK! Grab a drink, settle in, and let's get into it.In this episode, we explore:The Path to Publication: Essie's transition from an illustrator to a bestselling author and the perseverance required to break into the industry.Finding the Story: The serendipity of historical research and uncovering a novel idea right under your own floorboards.Reimagining a Classic: Unpacking the complex, humanizing layers of Wuthering Heights and why Essie had to write her own version.Vampires & Lord Byron: How John Polidori's The Vampyre and the infamous "Summer of Darkness" inspired Essie's historical thriller.Gothic Recommendations: Essie's top three Gothic novel recommendations for every writer and reader.Links & Resources:Follow Essie Fox on Instagram: @essiefox_authorListen to Essie's podcast on Substack: Talking the GothicPick up a copy of Katherine and Essie's other novels at your local indie bookshop, or here.Join our community Discord and Substack to participate in the upcoming 12-Week Novel Writing Challenge!Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-writing-community-chat-show--5445493/support.Connect With The Community

In this Write Big session, Jennie explores one of the most essential—and elusive—elements of writing: voice.In a world full of sameness (and increasingly, AI-generated language), what makes writing stand out is simple but not easy: sounding like yourself.This episode is sparked by a moment on an evening walk, when the call of an owl cut through noise-canceling headphones—clear, distinct, impossible to ignore. A reminder that true voice doesn't blend in. It breaks through.If you want your writing to connect, resonate, and rise above the noise, this episode is a reminder: your voice is the thing that makes it possible.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptHi, I'm Jennie Nash and you're listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a right big session where I'm bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters.Today I am talking about the power of tapping into your own voice. A lot of these sessions end up being about voice. The concept of voice in writing is so elusive, but I think it's just so central to what we're trying to do When we write big, we're trying to sound like ourselves and we're trying to cut through the noise of sameness, of sounding like everybody else, or lately of sounding like ai, which is of course, based on everybody else.It's critically important to hear your voice and to work on [00:01:00] raising your voice and to understanding how powerful that can be. Something happened to me the other day that I wanna share with you because it was such a perfect description of why voice matters and what voice really means. So almost every afternoon I go on a walk in my neighborhood.And I especially love to go at dusk as the sun is setting and in the winter the lights really pink and in the summer it lingers for such a long time and reflects off of the mountains that I can see as I walk. I live in Santa Barbara, California, so we have these coastal mountains and I live quite close to those.And then the beach is a couple miles on the other side. So we're in this little strip of land and there's a rich diversity of plants and trees that grow in this space, especially along the creek beds. And I live right near a creek bed, so there are these really tall sycamore trees and also really tall eucalyptus and pine trees.In some cases, even some redwood trees. And then there's all [00:02:00] kinds of scrubby chaparral like you get in Mediterranean climates. And the reason I like to walk at dusk is that the birds and animals are super active. So in the sky you're gonna see hawks flying to their perches and rabbits running around to get away from them, and just all kinds of life and activity.But my favorite thing of all is listening for the owls. These are great horned owls. They have that very classic owl hooting sound that goes in a series like who, who, who. And what's really cool is that the owls talk to each other. You can hear one call out and then a few seconds later, oftentimes from quite far away, another call out, but other times they're really close.This one time I was walking and I heard the hoot, and then I heard immediately the other hoot. It's a little bit like tracking thunder, like you can hear how close they are. I looked up and the two owls were sitting together in the top of this big tree. And the thing about the [00:03:00] owls also is that at that time of night, they swoop from high up on the trees into another tree.Sometimes they go into the middle of the tree to kind of hide or, uh, the opposite. They go from the middle of a tree, like a big spreading oak tree up to the top of a bigger tree so they can have their perch and check it all out. I just love it so much trying to find the owls and listening for the owls.You don't hear them every night on every walk. It's just such a joy when you do hear them. So I'm always listening for them. But what happened on the day that I wanna tell you about is they got some new noise canceling headphones. There are new in-ear noise canceling headphone from beats designed for working out so that they don't fall out of your ears.And I got them because I actually lost one of my Apple ones on a walk in the rain. I had a hood on and it fell out. I searched and searched in the rain. I did actually find it and rescue it, but it stressed me out. So I got the kind that are meant to be more secure in your ear. And [00:04:00] so I'm wearing these new headphones and they're really noise counseling.I didn't realize quite how much I like to listen to podcasts when I walk. I also like to talk to friends or family, so I'm often on the phone, but also listening to everything that's going on around me. It's both things are going on. So I have these new headphones and I didn't realize that I couldn't actually hear anything.They are so good that all I could hear was this podcast that I was listening to. I couldn't hear footsteps if a friend or neighbor walked up behind me and I couldn't hear the creek running. I couldn't hear planes flying overhead. I couldn't hear anything. And so I'm walking along listening to the podcast, just focusing on that.And of course, the beauty of the light and the trees and everything else. But then I heard the owl cutting through this podcast and this incredible noise cancellation technology. It was like the owl's voice was so distinctive and [00:05:00] on such a distinctive frequency, and it just cut through everything. And I stopped in my tracks and I took the headphones out and I just stood there and listened to it for like three minutes, maybe just.Doing, its hooting. And then there was a owl quite far in the distance hooting back, and I was just marveling that their voice, this particular way that they express themselves in the world, could cut through this incredible technology design to stop all noise. The owl's voice is that particular, and that distinctive and just that powerful.And maybe I wanted to hear it that much. And while I was standing there, I thought. This is it. This is what writers want. Writers wanna speak in such a way that is so precise and clear and them that their ideal reader cannot help but stop and listen. I thought if every writer could be like these [00:06:00] owls cutting through the noise to their ideal reader, what an incredible thing that would be for the writers and for the readers.The owl is not trying to sound like a hawk and it's not trying to sound like a hummingbird. We have a lot of hummingbirds near us too, and they have this very distinctive sort of buzzing sound that they make when they fly. And an owl is not trying to sound like that. They're just sounding like their own selves and they're owning that way that they sound.And in that moment I just felt it and I felt how powerful it was and I thought it was so awesome and, and I just wanted to share that with you. I thought it might be inspiring. I'm obviously going to have to choose between listening to podcasts and listening for the owls. And maybe that's not such a bad thing either.Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcomeToday's guest is Antonia Crane, author, academic, and one of my all-time favorite memoirists. In this special episode, the tables are turned as Antonia interviews me about my debut memoir Girl Gone Wild, and we get into what it actually takes to write a book over 15 years and finally share it with the world.We talk about the long, nonlinear road from first essay to finished memoir, including incubators with Chloe Caldwell, revising through many drafts, and why sometimes you have to write an entire version of a book just to figure out what it isn't. We also get into structure, how trusting your gut can be more important than following industry expectations, the difference between factual accuracy and emotional truth, the challenge of fact-checking your own life, and why writing about the past often means confronting the parts you've tried hardest to forget. We discuss “dark teachers,” perfectionism, and the complicated process of making meaning out of tough experiences like addiction, abusive relationships, and sexual trauma.Plus, we get into sex work, feminism, the male gaze, and the cultural forces shaping Girl Gone Wild—from growing up in small-town Minnesota to chasing Hollywood dreams and encountering its underbelly.Subscribe to Antonia's Substack Meow Town. Follow her on Instagram @antoniacrane, and buy your copy of her amazing memoir Spent on Bookshop.org, or wherever books are sold!Get your copy of Courtney's debut memoir Girl Gone Wild from ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Amazon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:The Multi-Passionate Writer's Life: https://writingworkshops.com/products/the-multi-passionate-writers-life-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocakHow to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminarStart a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminar12 Months to a Full Memoir in Essays Incubator: Write Your Memoir in a Year: https://writingworkshops.com/products/memoir-in-essays-incubator-nonfiction-writing-workshop-online-june-2026Land Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminarSo You Want to Start a Podcast?: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-podcast-workshop-courtney-kocak

Welcome back to another fantastic episode of The Writing Community Chat Show! With over 400 interviews under our belts - chatting with everyone from indie debutants to NYT bestsellers - we are incredibly proud to continue bringing you the very best insights into the publishing world. It's been an amazing journey recently reaching number 3 in the top 10 writing podcasts in the UK, and we couldn't do it without this brilliant community.This week, we are thrilled to welcome the award-winning author of contemporary women's fiction and romance, Fiona Lucas (also known for her decades of enchanting readers as Fiona Harper). Fiona has written over 30 books, hit the number one spot on the Kindle bestseller list, and cracked the code for authors on TikTok, accumulating over a million likes!Whether you are plotting your first romance or trying to figure out how to market your latest release on social media, Fiona's journey from a mother of two seeking a creative outlet to a seasoned industry veteran is packed with actionable advice.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-writing-community-chat-show--5445493/support.Connect With The Community

This episode is connected to:* Hot Seat Coaching #1* Hot Seat Coaching #2When you find yourself spiraling over a structural choice—looping between two different plot points or debating a table of contents—it's easy to treat it as a technical puzzle to be solved with logic. But as book coach Jennie Nash explores in this episode, the hardest writing decisions usually aren't about craft; they are about courage.Inspired by a profound "hot seat" moment with writer Andrew Parella, Jennie discusses how the simple question "Why is this so hard for me?" can reveal where you are "playing small." Whether you're deciding the scope of a nonfiction argument or the emotional vulnerability of a memoir, being stuck often means you are hovering between a safe version of your book and the big, ambitious version that actually wants to be written. This session is a call to align your head with your heart and step into the bigger power your project is asking of you.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] This is a right big episode where I bring you short conversations about the mindset shifts that shape the work. Today I am talking about something that Andrew said in our hot seat coaching session the other day. That's just really captured my attention. If you listen to that episode, which I'll link to in the show notes, you'll be able to hear him say this, but I wanted to take some time to talk about it on a right big session because the question was just so profound.What he asked himself was just simply, why is this so hard? So what was happening was we were talking through a writing decision he was struggling with. It's one of those decisions where as a coach you can feel the writer circling around it, going back and forth, trying one thing, then another just sort of spiraling and not sure about how to move forward.And I. Was prepared to say the thing that I always say as a book coach, which [00:01:00] is, okay, let's go through all the options. Let's make a pro con list of how to proceed with this, of what your different choices are, and we can step back and look at the possible directions. That's the analytic way that I was thinking to approach this decision.But Andrew had actually already solved the problem, and he had solved it not by going through all the options or using his mind. He had solved it by asking, why is this so hard for me? Which is a question of the heart. So what he did was he took it out of the intellectual sphere and he took it into this sphere.Of feeling I was there ready to start diagramming possibilities and using our head to figure this out. And he was the one who was like, well, wait a minute. Let me look at why this is hard. And what he realized was that the reason it was hard was because the decision was poking up against why this book so much to [00:02:00] him.What he actually said was he realized he was playing small. He was circling around a decision ‘cause he wanted to do the thing that would make the book big, but he felt like he should do the thing that would keep the book small. He was pinging back and forth. Between his desire and it was showing up as a structural decision in the book about how he would approach.In this case, it was the reality of vampires in his story. And one way would be, I can handle this. I'm capable of this. I can wrap up my hands around this. And the other way was, oh no, that's gonna be a big scary book that I'd be having to. Handle and tackle, and I'm not sure that I could do that. So by not making this decision, he was holding himself back.He was hedging his bets. He was not fully committing to the version of the book that he really wanted to write. And as long as he was stuck in that place, every single decision was going to feel wrong. He was never gonna [00:03:00] land on one that was like, yes, this is it. And this moment stayed with me. So hard because I think a lot of writing decisions that feel technical or structural are actually something else.They're about whether we're willing to write the book that wants to be written. So imagine for example, that you're writing a nonfiction book and it's about burnout at work, and you keep getting stuck on how to frame it. Is the book a step by step guide on managing stress? Or is it about something bigger about, say how the culture of work itself is totally unsustainable.The first version is contained, it's small, and the other version is making a much bigger claim, and it's asking that writer to step up into a much bigger kind of power. So if you're circling that structural decision endlessly, you might think that it's different choices about. What the chapters are gonna look like are the table of [00:04:00] contents.But the real question is, am I willing to say the bigger thing, am I willing to go out there and say this bigger thing? Or imagine this for memoir. Maybe you're writing a book about moving to a new city and the first year of showing up in a new place and building community, but there's something you keep avoiding, which is that there was a breakup that happened before you made this move and that precipitated your.Coming here and you keep asking yourself, does this even belong in the book? Will it derail the narrative? Is it taking it in a different direction? Should I have a prologue? Should I start it at chapter one with that breakup? Should I just assume that people are gonna know, should I not put in it at all?But the real reason that decision probably feels hard is that that decision changes what the book is about. Uh, it stops being a story about a new city and a new adventure, and it becomes a story about rebuilding [00:05:00] a life. So it becomes a bigger story. And in order to write big, you have to embrace that bigness of it.So what Andrew's question does, why is this so hard is shift. The focus inward to what you're hesitating about, to what version of the book you might be avoiding to what version of your own self as a writer you might be avoiding because every writer has a story about who they are and how they're showing up.There's the safer version of that story, and there's the bigger version. There's one that might be more honest or more ambitious or more emotionally exposed, and when we try to write the smaller version of that story, whatever it is, the whole project will start to wobble because we're not in alignment with our goal.So maybe your scenes don't quite land, or the structure of the book feels wrong, or every decision feels impossible. And it's not [00:06:00] because you don't know enough about your story or your material or craft, or your skills need sharpening. It's because you and what you're doing aren't aligned yet. So the next time you find yourself circling some decision about your work.Whether it's rewriting the same paragraph over and over, or asking everyone you know what they think, or debating some decision. It's definitely worth pausing and asking this question, which is not what is the right choice here, but why is this decision so hard for me? Odds are good that your project is asking you to step into a bigger power than you're comfortable with, and you're still debating whether you're actually willing to do that.You're debating the commitment of the whole thing. It's a really brilliant move to make. And I would urge you to listen to Andrew talk about asking that question on our coaching call because it was so profound to hear him talk about it, and it was such a good [00:07:00] reminder for me that I have to remember to help the writer get out of their head and into their heart.Thanks for listening. Now let's get back to work and finish what matters most.Outro: The hashtag am Writing podcast is produced by Andrew Parella. Our intro music Aply titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:08:00] work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

After ten years of the #amwriting podcast, KJ, Jess, and Sarina are marking a milestone—and a transition. In this episode, the longtime hosts reflect on what the writing world looked like when the show began and share their best advice for writers trying to do meaningful work. They also pass the microphone to Jennie, who will carry the podcast into its next chapter.Moving forward, Jennie will keep the show focused on helping writers do their best work and make smart decisions about their writing lives. Expect familiar features and new conversations, including Write Big solo episodes, Book Lab breakdowns of listener submissions, coaching sessions with writers across genres, and Margin Notes exploring the thinking behind creative choices. The mission remains the same: helping writers play big in their writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash and you're listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast. The place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.KJ: Hey everyone. I'm kj and you are listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.So today is a big day. We're we'reJess: big day.KJ: Yeah. We're celebrating the 10th year of the hashtag am writing podcast, which I have to say is officially the longest I've been able to sustain any job-like thing. Um, and we're announcing that we're going in a new direction. So this is really cool. After a decade of talking to y'all, um, Jess and I and then [00:01:00] Sarina, who is at minus a decade. I don't wanna, um, have decided to step back and hand over the reins to Jennie.Jess: YeahJennie: It is, it is such a big milestone and such a big deal. And before we. Actually say goodbye to the three of you. I mean, it's not forever. You're coming back as guests, all of you, all the time, hopefully.KJ: Oh, heck yes. Absolutely. You, you, you and I have already planned all the things, so don't get too excited and, and weepy here folks, but things are just, things are gonna be. New and fresh and more interesting and, uh, more craft filled and more inspirational. When I need inspiration to write, I look for one of our episodes.That's Jennie. So I think this is gonna be, this is gonna be great.Jennie: I think it's gonna be great too. But before we actually say goodbye, I mean, 10. Is a long time and I thought it would be fun to ask you all what it was like 10 [00:02:00] years ago when you started, and Sarina 10 minus whatever the time is, but what was the writing landscape like as a whole maybe for you, and then all this wisdom, all these years that you've shared.What's, what's the thing that sticks in your head the most is what you would want to leave with, with the listeners, what is the your best piece of writing advice from all of this time? So. Jess, why don't you start? You're the og.Jess: Well, I, I definitely wanted to start. For those people who have not been around since the very beginning, you have to understand that it's really horrifying when people say they go back and like start from the beginning because, um, and we'll be posting pictures in the show notes.I have a ton of pictures throughout the years, but we originally, um, we, we would go into this little, I had a tiny, tiny house and we would go into the eve space off of my daughter's room. And it was raw insulation with a light bulb, and we sat on the floor and it was [00:03:00] like. Maybe at the tallest point, maybe four feet high, so you had to kind of crawl in.And I have a picture of us, um, podcasting from inside there. And it was, and it was very hot in the summer. It would get very, very hot. My house did not have air conditioning and um. But it was delightful and it was this thing that we had talked about doing for such a long time, and I was so proud of us.And mainly it was kj. KJ was the one who said, we're not gonna talk about this anymore, we're just gonna do it. So she got us into gear and just brought her stuff over to my house in her basket and said, let's go. Let's do it. And we bought microphones and everything and it was. It was a big new adventure.And if you had said, then, how long do you think this is gonna last? I don't know that I would've said 10 years. But there's, you know, then Sarina came in and, and Sarina has, has been a part of this as a guest since the very beginning too. And a couple of things that I wanted to share were that one time Sarina and KJ and I, uh, were doing a [00:04:00] double, a double header episode and I forgot to hit record for both of them.And so. We did this incredibly fun, very long episode, broken into two pieces that, um, it went off into the ether and. I did learn from that. And then at the same time, by the time we were sort of on our game enough to be able to really interview people, we went up to Maine to interview Richard Russo and we went to record at his daughter's wonderful bookstore in Portland, Maine.And um, I had three modes of recording. I had, um. Two microphones and I had a handheld digital thing that I had on the table between us and, um, mode one failed and mode two failed. And so the only thing we had was, you know, our little digital handheld on the table in between us. So. There's a lot of stuff like that.There was the moment I got to text KJ and tell her that we were getting David [00:05:00] Sedaris, there was the day she emailed me to tell me that we were getting Anna Quinlan. You know, and I just so many cool things that, um. It makes me so happy that we've produced something good out of all of that. And one last thing.The, the, the thing that I think I've learned the most is there is no one right way to do this. That every single time I hear about, like whether it's the, you have to write, writer write every day, you have to write every day, or you have to write in a certain way, or you have to write in a certain place, or you have to write with the door closed, or you have to write with the door open, all of those things.Um, none of those are rules. None of them are rules. They're things that people do and I'm really glad that I've had the opportunity to talk to a lot of people about all the different ways they do it.Jennie: That's amazing. Um, kj, do you remember this, uh, light bulb and no insulation time? KJ: Oh yeah. I don't remember the time you didn't record particularly just ‘cause it happened more than once. And [00:06:00] the other thing I would throw in is that the more famous, the guest, the. Less interesting. They were, it was almostKJ: always true. Jess: It wasn them. It was, yeah. I think we got all jacked up about like, I don't know. It just,Jess: I don't know.Wasn David Sari's advice to young writers was the worst.KJ: Yeah. It advice really wasJess: anyone has ever given, itKJ: was,Jess: yeah, a writer. He said, don't submit your work. Don't ask. Don't try to get you, wait for people to read it. Wait for people to ask you if they can read it.KJ: Yeah,Jess: that's which this, this is, KJ: this worked for him. He is an NF one and it will not work for you.Jess: Right. Yeah, I think thatKJ: my favorite, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna lay it out there. I'm not even gonna put any caveats on that. That won't work.Jess It won't work.KJ: No. I think it's always been the most fun when we get in deep into the craft and anytime someone is too practiced with their answers or it's the same answer they've given a million times.You're [00:07:00] right. It was cold and it was, um, it just wasn't good.Sarina: Yeah. So the more fun people were always the people who were really in it with us.KJ: Yeah. Yeah.Jennie: So, Sarina, do you know when you came in, do you know what the, the n minus number is?Sarina: No, because I was a guest star even before we got out of the, the, um, kgs closet.It's true. It's true.KJ: One of those not recorded episodes was recorded in the eve space. That's true. We had, we roped during fairly early.Jennie: Yeah. In that 10 years, you've probably written more. More than, well, how many books have you written in that time? Sarina, I mean,Sarina: um, 50. At 50 50 ish.Jennie: That's crazy. That's crazy. So what do you know now that you didn't know then?Sarina: Oh, so much, so much that, like giving advice, you know, I, I [00:08:00] now feel like less qualified to give advice than I did then, you know how that goes. Like, the job gets harder, not easier. I have a, a good working vocabulary for why, but it doesn't make me feel like anybody's, you know, special savior.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. What do you remember about starting in and the, the, um, all these episodes? What sticks in your mind asSarina: you know? Um, I loved the opportunity to talk to people who I think are fantastic. I also learned that I am not a fantastic interviewer and that, and that, um. That isn't a skill of mine that I, it's, there's so many things, like I'm so busy, I write so many books.I can't learn to be the interviewer that you deserve. So I only. Did interviews selectively and sometimes they were just so fun. Like, [00:09:00] um, the, the person who broke broke the mold about the interview being interesting, the more famous they are was Emily Henry. ‘cause she was Oh yeah. She was fun to talk to.She was just right there with us and, and ready to have a good time and, and so wise and also so, so nice. And that, that's really great when you can talk to somebody who's killing it in your own genre and you know, they're just so wonderful about it. Um, and then, you know, then we had the odd, very sweaty interview where nothing seems to go according to plan.And I won't name the author because I do admire this person very much, but they were not. Willing to take any expertise onto themselves. So KJ and I just sweated all the way through this interview trying to get this person to, to tell us KJ: Say something. Say anything.Sarina: Yeah. Tell us how you feel, you know?KJ: Yeah.Sarina: And it could not be done.KJ: Nope.Sarina: So, you know, that one, I, [00:10:00] I will never re-listened to that one, but, um, but I really, what I got out of it, honestly, was spending time with all of you guys, and you teach me things every single day. And another thing about this job is that I find that I have to relearn the best lessons over and over again.And when you are compelled to speak lucidly about your job, you know, a couple of times a month, um, it forces a certain reckoning with your own skill and expertise. Like I might say that I, you know, don't want to be anybody's, um, masterclass, but I really do know a lot at this point and, um, every time I talk to you guys and we'd, and we gathered together like this, I always learn something.Jess: I love, I think Sarina is the most amazing explainer and teacher. And so getting to learn, um, especially, you know, in these [00:11:00] recent, uh, nerd Corner Publishing Nerd Corner episodes, it's been so cool to just learn from her. It's really, really fun. And, you know, if, if we take it all the way back, like the first, your first romance novels, you know.We're just coming out when we just, when we started this thing. It's just been such an incredible journey from there to where we are now. The other thing that's been really cool is that this podcast has made me really accountable to my goals and to, you know, not that. You guys also do that for me. But saying things out loud in front of other people has always been my, the thing that has saved me, whether that's about my recovery or, um, you know, whatever it is.Um, people talk to me all the time and say, you know, was it hard to come out publicly about, you know, being an alcoholic? I'm like, absolutely not. It's what's kept me sober. And I feel the same way about the writing, that when I talk to, um, the listeners that I, I feel like. Someone may [00:12:00] come along someday and ask how that, uh, that goal of mine is going. And, and I like that.Jennie: Yeah. That's so good. Kj, what, what are your best memories and, um, best, best advice that you've gotten or, or given?KJ Well, you know, spend 10 years, so it is a long time ago, but I do remember the time Jess was riding her dinosaur to my house to record and got hit by a snowplow. Mm-hmm. Um, that was, that was good times.Jess: Yep.KJ: We have Snow Fred Dinosaurs up here. Yep. In New Hampshire. Um, the Sedaris thing that was, that was just funny and also really cool ‘cause I have such deep admiration for, for him, and I'm quite certain that if somehow he ever heard. I, he would not care. We think that was terrible advice.Jess: What's also really was really funny about that one is this is an only David Sedera sort of situation where, oh Lord, he, he has said very specifically that he, during COVID, he refused.To get Zoom, any [00:13:00] kind of zoom sort of situation. So we had to, we went all the way to Concord to,KJ: this wasn't Coco COVID, this was before that. No, no, no. I, I know, but I'm saying like, he has, this is not new information. He has said very publicly that he doesn't do likeJess: Oh, yeah. So he wouldn't even, even let us have somebody bring him a laptop to his apartment.Right. And set it up for us, which we were like, happy to do, butKJ: Yeah. Yeah. We had to go there.Jess: So he called and yeah, we went to NHPR in Concord and, uh, our, and our wonderful producer Andrew was. Able to get everything connected for us. Um, but it was one of those moments where, you know, we are constantly talking about how to like bend over backwards to get marketing and get people to listen to what we have to say.And yet, even though he puts obstacles in the path of people who want to hear what he has to say, they will gladly jump through those hoops, uh, for him.Jess: Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. I mean, you know, so kind of him to do it.KJ: Yes. Anyway, I mean, that was super funnyJess: and, and I am looking at my wall that [00:14:00] has the postcard, the thank you postcard that he sent us.So when he says he sends thank you notes to everyone, he sends thank you notes to everyone because we got one. And from what I understand, he sends them to every bookseller, every person who drives them everywhere. He sends thank you notes to everyone.Jennie: Wow. That's what I think of when I think of you, Jess.mThat's a thing you do too. You're so good at that. Well, I, I have to say that I have been a listener for this whole time, and the thing that you all brought was. This authenticity, this sense of what it's really like to do this work. And you all are writing such different things and so accomplished at those things, and your willingness to kind of just open, open it up and share what that looks like with no, you know, varnish over it or, or you know, polished.Just like, this is what it's really like and this is who we are and this is how it happens, and [00:15:00] that the work gets done in such. Messy circumstances and, um, that lesson and, and that generosity of showing people that that's true. Which kind of goes to what you were saying, Jess, like there is no way, but, but also just doing the work is the way and.That's what you have all modeled and continue to model, and obviously,KJ well, that's what I want people to take away from this. Mm-hmm. Is listen. Okay. We're joking that 10 years is a long time and 10 years is a long time. It's a long time to do anything. But also 10 years ago I had one book to my name. And you've never heard of it.It was called Reading with Babies, toddlers, and Twos, and it got me all my other jobs. Jess had no books to her name. Mm-hmm. 10 years ago, Sarina Couple not, you know, just, just, just barely getting started. Jennie actually had a ton of books to her name, but that's, you know, that's a different story. So here we were.10 years ago sat down and said, [00:16:00] we are gonna do these things. And we did not all, I mean, it wasn't, nobody came and asked us for it. All of David Saris. Um, nobody had, none of us had instant success. You know, no one called up and said, Hey, can I do this? And like immediately got articles in the New Yorker or whatever.Uh, publishers were not banging down our doors. We. We were banging down theirs and we were all very determined to, um, to make this a professional endeavor. The, the podcast and the writing and the books and all of it. And so I guess what I'm saying is I don't know where you are listener, but wherever you wanna be in 10 years.Uh, you know, maybe you won't get exactly there. I wouldn't say any of us has gotten exactly there ‘cause we're not done. But still, we came a long way in 10 years and I would like to see other people, [00:17:00] um, sit down and actually do the thing so you can go to the place.Jess: That's been one of the big joys, I think, also of this podcast is seeing other people's work happen.Like hearing from listeners that, oh my gosh, I hadn't started my book. I was trying to get motivated to start my book, and then I created this proposal and now the book is coming out, and that's, I, I, I just, I can't, I can hardly wrap my brain around that. Um, it's been a really amazing progression and the, the group of people that have sort of coalesced around listening to this podcast and getting in, in touch, some of them have become friends and that's been really amazing too.Sarina: I hope what some people will take away from this, um, is that very few people who do what we do are truly trained for it. You know, I don't have an MFAI don't KJ and just don't have journalism degrees. They have law degrees instead. But, um, you can, you can [00:18:00] do this on the job training. That's what we did.That's what you listened to us do. And I'm reminded of that, um, quote by El Doctoral. You know, writing a book is like driving at night with the headlights on. You can. You can't see the whole distance, um, but you can still get to your destination. And there was this Time when KJ and I were debating this quote on this podcast and KJ said, yeah, but the last time we went driving at night, we almost hit a bunny.And it was true. And I think that what might be the, one of the times I laughed the hardest on this podcast.Jess: You know, it's also interesting, I was thinking that, um, you know how I said that there isn't one way to do things, and even the way that we do things has evolved over time and like Sarina has learned how to, has become a coffee shop writer and has learned how to write in other places.And I've learned how to write in other places and I never used to be able to do that. Um, [00:19:00] so how we get the work done really has. Uh, evolved with the needs of what's going on around us and what our career needs from us, and, and that's been really pleasant. Pleasant to watch too.Jennie: Well, it's been an honor to listen to you all and to be, uh, working alongside you.And I am, I'm thrilled to be carrying the show forward. I have lots of big ideas to bring to these episodes To continue to center the writer and the writing and getting the work done in authentic conversations about what it takes, both from a craft perspective and a mindset perspective. So I'll be reaching out soon for submissions to book Lab because that's gonna continue with a twist and I will be letting you know about what's coming. Um, for sure. New episodes with our producer Andrew, who's stepped out from behind the mic, um, as you heard last week. And I'll be continuing to coach him forward, which will be really [00:20:00] fun. So lots of good stuff coming and I appreciate your ongoing support and I appreciate.Getting you to stand on the shoulders of these three incredible writers and entrepreneurs and thinkers and friends, and, um, thank you all.KJ Thank you. I'm just so glad. Thank you guys to see this, uh, keep going and to become a little bit more of a passenger. I have very much been the driver for the past few years.Um, Jess had her turn in the, in the driving seat and Sarina said from day one, no, no, I am buddy, humble guest. So, um, I'm so thrilled that you're taking over and I am excited to listen when I am not part of it, and to also continue to be part of it. Yay. Thank you guys.Jennie: Thank you all so, so much.Hey, why don't you, uh, why don't you take us out?KJ No, no. Jess has to take us out. It's cool. That's the tradition.Jess: Alright. And actually coming up with our, this little bit of the show happened in the eve space, so [00:21:00] it's a very. Yeah, that's a sentimental phrase for me too. So until next week, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.Jess: The hashtag am writing podcast. Is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcomeToday's guest is Brooke Warner, publisher of She Writes Press, author of Write On, Sisters!, renowned former editor at Seal Press, and a 25-year publishing industry veteran. She talks candidly about how the industry has evolved, why traditional publishing is no longer the only path, and what it really takes to build a writing career today.In this episode, Brooke breaks down the current publishing landscape across every lane: traditional, hybrid, and self-publishing—and why more authors are thinking beyond the Big Five. She shares how hybrid publishing emerged as a “third way,” its roots in co-publishing, and why entrepreneurial authors actually prefer it. We also get into the catch-22 of platform building and what actually sells books now, from the rise of podcasts, Substack, and TikTok to the enduring power of email lists (and why social media doesn't convert the way you think it does).Brooke also dishes on PR, Amazon's outsized—and often unfair—influence, and the behind-the-scenes realities of book distribution. Plus, we talk about AI's growing presence in manuscript submissions, how publishers can spot it, and what it means for the future of writing.Subscribe to Brooke's Substack Writerly Things. Follow her on Instagram @brooke_warner, and buy your copy of Write On, Sisters! on Bookshop.org, or wherever books are sold!Get your copy of Courtney's debut memoir Girl Gone Wild from ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Amazon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.Preorder 10 copies of Girl Gone Wild to join The Confessional—a live memoir writing residency during the launch of Girl Gone Wild. For more details, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠www.courtneykocak.com/teaching⁠⁠⁠⁠.The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:Edit & Elevate: Revision Intensive: https://writingworkshops.com/products/edit-elevate-revision-intensive-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocakThe Multi-Passionate Writer's Life: https://writingworkshops.com/products/the-multi-passionate-writers-life-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocakHow to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminarStart a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminarLand Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminarSo You Want to Start a Podcast?: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-podcast-workshop-courtney-kocak

Welcome to series 14, episode 1 of In Suspense - a podcast for fans and writers of crime fiction. Today we're chatting to the brilliant Sarah Vaughan about her new novel - Based On A True Story, and discussing, amongst other topics, why she chose a 70 year-old protagonist, and how older women are becoming more visible in fiction.

Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcomeToday the tables are turned—host Courtney Kocak sits down with Trio House Press junior editor Lili Gourley to talk about her debut memoir Girl Gone Wild.Girl Gone Wild is a coming-of-age tale of ambition, delusion, drugs, sex, and misogyny... including selling T-shirts on the Girls Gone Wild bus.This special episode is a behind-the-scenes look at the book's 15-year journey from first essay to publication, the revision process, how the Girls Gone Wild tour became the title essay, substance abuse, the writers who influenced her journey, how memoir can literally heal you, and, most importantly, what I hope you get from reading it.Get your copy of Girl Gone Wild from ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Amazon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.Preorder 10 copies of Girl Gone Wild to join The Confessional—a live memoir writing residency during the launch of Girl Gone Wild. For more details, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠www.courtneykocak.com/teaching⁠⁠⁠⁠.The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:Edit & Elevate: Revision Intensive: https://writingworkshops.com/products/edit-elevate-revision-intensive-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocakThe Multi-Passionate Writer's Life: https://writingworkshops.com/products/the-multi-passionate-writers-life-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocakHow to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminarStart a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminarLand Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminarSo You Want to Start a Podcast?: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-podcast-workshop-courtney-kocak

Jennie Nash launches a brand-new Hot Seat Coaching series on the podcast—real, on-air coaching sessions where listeners get to hear a story develop in real time.In the first episode, Jennie brings #amwriting podcast producer Andrew Parrella out from behind the microphone as he begins work on his first novel. Fresh off completing the Blueprint challenge, Andrew shares his gothic horror premise: a Dracula-inspired story set in 1920s London, where Abriana Harker—the daughter of Mina Harker—faces a string of mysterious deaths unfolding against the backdrop of the suffrage movement.Jennie and Andrew pressure-test the blueprint together, refining the novel's central point, exploring how Van Helsing's legacy shapes the world of the story, and identifying ways to strengthen Abriana's role so the plot is driven by her choices. Andrew leaves with clear next steps—and this is just the beginning: he'll return in future episodes as Jennie continues coaching him through the process of developing the novel.You can connect with Andrew via his website AndrewParrella.com#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash and you're listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast. The place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life. Love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hi, I'm Jenny Nash and you're listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast.This is something new. It's a hot seat coaching episode where we're gonna work through a real challenge in real time with a real writer. And today. I'm joined by a really special guest. His name is Andrew Perella, and he has been the producer of this podcast for many, many years and is stepping out from behind the microphone to write his first novel.Andrew participated in the Winter Blueprint challenge that we recently completed. Which is to say he answered all 14 of the blueprint questions during our challenge and, and produced a [00:01:00] finished blueprint. And so I wanted to get on with him and talk about what do we do next? How do we go from there to the next thing?And he agreed to do that to help show our listeners how it goes. And I'm so excited about it because. He just did incredible work and also has so much work to go, so hopefully we're gonna get to, we're gonna get to follow Andrew as he does this for a few episodes and bring you along on the journey. So welcome Andrew from Behind the Microphone.Andrew: So much work to go. Thank you, Jenny. I'm really excited to be here.Jennie: So Andrew is, has a long career in public radio and is a producer of podcast for many people and is a storytelling guy, you know, as well as a sound guy. So this is, this is a big move. I feel like this is a right big move for you for sure, for deciding.This is the time to embrace the fact that you wanna do this thing. Does it [00:02:00] feel like that to you?Andrew: It, it feels like a right big move for me that I'm kind of prioritizing now this writing project for me. I'm prioritizing my project, um, over, over, uh, the projects of others whom, whom I help with projects.Yeah. So this is a big, big a right big moment for me.Jennie: It is totally a riping moment and. You're in the hot seat personal coaching, which I, I really appreciate you being willing to do So, um, where we stand today is, as I said, you, you finished the blueprint, you did all the work, you did the thing. So I'm just curious to sort of check in.How do you feel? Do you feel like that's an accomplishment? Do you feel some momentum? Like, what, where are you feeling, what are you feeling? Um,Andrew: I, I feel like it is a, a really big accomplishment because as we were working through the blueprint, I was getting feedback, uh, from you and KJ Dium about, uh, about, uh, how I was, how I was creating my [00:03:00] blueprint.It got me, it forced me to think about the book in some very real terms, in ways that I hadn't yet, and in ways that, you know, I had been kind of thinking about the book in more abstract notions. Um, and like this was putting pen to paper, uh, on so many things to think about, you know, beyond the, beyond the simple plot structure.Um, and I realized as I was going through this. How much I hadn't yet considered, and I think this helped to show me where the holes in my story were. Um. And he, even, even as I've finished, quote unquote, finished the blueprint, it's like I finished one inter iteration of it and like already the story has changed since I first started work on the blueprint.And so already I know I gotta go back and start reiterating on, on, on this, uh, uh, as we go along here.Jennie: Yeah. I mean, and that's the point, right? Yeah. Is the whole point is this is a tool that reveals. [00:04:00] What's working and what's not working? Is this what I want? Does this reflect my vision? And you get to, to play with that wet clay of the idea.So that's really what what we're doing. But the reason that I thought you'd be such a good candidate for coaching live in this way is your story. It really hangs together in so many ways. It's so great in so many ways and it, it would be easy to feel like, oh, I'm, I'm not that far. I got this. I could, I could start right?I can start writing. Yeah. But I hope, I hope what we're gonna show is, is really pushing yourself to answer core questions is gonna just make it so much stronger.Andrew: Absolutely.Jennie: So, um, all that being said, do you. What do you think the best way to share what you're writing with our listeners is? Do you think reading your book jacket copy feels good or do you wanna just say it out [00:05:00] loud?Andrew: Um, I feel like the book jacket copy, I. Um, that I, that I wrote doesn't quite, doesn't quite capture, I think in many ways what I think the book is going to be so Well,Jennie: and we're gonna actually getAndrew: to that. So I, and we're gonna get to that, I think. Yeah.Jennie: So why don't you just, just share what, what it is.Andrew: So, uh, the premise of the book is this happens, uh.Uh, the, the novel, it happens 20 years after the events of, uh, Bram Stoker's Dracula. Um, and so. It involves some of the same characters, and then it also involves the next generation of these characters. So these, those characters children. Um, the, uh, our protagonist is a Abriana Harker, who is the daughter of Mina Harker, who was, um, kind of the female, uh, lead in, in, in Dracula.And she was, she was bitten by Dracula in, in the original novel. [00:06:00] Um, and she is, uh, someone who is defended, um. Uh, by her, uh, by her friends and, and counterparts in, in that story, Abriana is her daughter. And Abriana is now facing a similar challenge. There are bodies that are turning up around her circle and uh, they appear to have similar injuries that Dracula's victims had 20 years ago, and some people recognize that and are.Going to begin trying to unravel the mystery. And this is all set against the backdrop of the universal suffrage movement, which is also happening in, uh, you know, 1920s London, where, where the novel is, novel is set. And so in broad strokes, that is, that is the, the, the primary premise of the book.Jennie: So the genre is horror.Gothic and I, I did some, some digging. I'm not a big reader of horror, so I did some digging into the genre to make sure that that was right. Because there [00:07:00] there's also thriller elements. There's mystery elements. Mm-hmm. There's, you know, there's other elements and it is, I always liked to, to test. Is this right?Is this right? Could it be tweaked? Could it be better? And it feels, it feels like there's really no question about the genre. Right. Do you feel thatAndrew: I, I feel that, I feel definitely, definitely feel that. And I think I, I, like gothic is, is, is a genre that I really enjoy and I want to develop some of those gothic themes in the story a little bit more than I have so far.But yes, I think gothic and, and horror is very much where, where this, where this book lives. Yeah.Jennie: Yeah. And that is something I wanna talk about for sure when we get to the inside outline. But I wanna start with, um, the second question of the blueprint is what's your point? And I know this is something you've struggled with a little bit.Yeah. Um, but so the current point that you have here is. I feel like maybe this came from me. So, [00:08:00] uh, I, it's, you can't change the world without upsetting people. The more you want to change, the more people you upset, and that's fine, but it, but it doesn't, it does, it doesn't feel like it captures. There's a real moral, philosophical debate at the center of your story.Right.Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, the, the characters are certainly, uh, in the midst of a paradigm shift, you know, there's the, there, the, the world order is changing as, uh, as suffrage is, is being opened to more and more people. Um, and times a world order like that changes. There are people who are for it and there are a lot of people who are against it.And so I think that's. That's an element in, in play here in the, in the novel. And that, and that's something that I wanted to explore. And obviously there are parallels in current times as well for, uh, for this, for this sort of change. So I think that's, I think that's, that's certainly, that's certainly part of, uh, of, of [00:09:00] the story.Yeah.Jennie: So I was, when I, when I review a blueprint, and for anybody who's, who's got one all on the page and, and you, you like it and it feels pretty good. The step is to, to really pressure test everything. So I, I read through the whole thing. I love looking at a blueprint. A blueprint as a whole rather than piece by piece.And in this particular case, it's like this. Yeah. This point feels bloodless, which is something we definitely don't want in this story. So I went back to your why and your why is really powerful and really personal and really political. Um, it's, it's fiery, it's articulate, like there's so much about your why that I.You can see my comments on the page. Mm-hmm. Not the listener, but Andrew can Right where I was going. Great. Yes. Very powerful. Awesome. You know, it's just, it's excellent. And you had some lines in there [00:10:00] about the, the monster in this story is not the vampire, but a man who is refusing to change with the times basically.And. That felt to me, given everything else you're saying about the parallels between this, the milieu of this story and the milieu we live in right now, the, the fraught. Climate, political climate. Cultural climate that felt more potent as a point. And I, I wondered what you thought about that.Andrew: Yeah, I mean, I think that that is as mu that is as much a part of the, the premise as I've conceived it, as, as anything else that I've, I've said, um, you know, the, the, the.Spoiler alert, the the murders aren't being committed by, by the vampire, uh, or vampires. Uh, the murders are being committed by an old white dude who is not [00:11:00] happy with how the politics are shifting under his feet and how the world is changing around him, um, and is trying to, at all costs, prevent that from happening, even sacrificing a bit of his own humanity in, in the process.And so I think that is. Is is something that certainly resonates, but I think it yeah. Is, as you say, there's a passion, there's a blood there that in in, in the why that didn't quite make it to my point. Um,Jennie: yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would suggest for the next iteration mm-hmm. To, to really push that point and.It's gonna keep changing, it's gonna keep, um, you know, getting refined as you go. But I think it's important to move it forward as you keep writing. So the, um, yeah, something that's, that's fiery and that's, um, about, ‘cause that's a, that's a, you're flipping an important trope in a. In a [00:12:00] classic novel, right?Mm-hmm. That it, it's not the vampire. So like, why that? Why, why are we flipping out? What is that showing us? What is the point of, of doing that in the story? That, so I would really play with that. Um, does that make sense? Mm-hmm.Andrew: Yes, it does. Okay. Yes, it does.Jennie: Okay, so the next thing I wanna talk about is your super, your super simple story.Mm-hmm. And. What's interesting about the super simple story is, I mean, I love everybody always. Here's me say this, who's listened to me for very long, but I love a constraint on in creativity. And this, trying to get this story in a really short space often reveals something. And what it, when it was revealing to me is, so you've got, you've got a abriana, she wants to, uh, become a doctor.Because of her mother's, [00:13:00] her mother died in childbirth with her. Um, so that's the, that's the storyline. You've got the murders that are happening and, and then you've got the universal suffragette movement, this political debate that's going on. So there's these three threads and. Even in the super simple story, it was feeling a little bit like they're disconnected.I don't think they're disconnected in your mind. I think they're disconnected on the page.Andrew: Okay.Jennie: So I wanted to just ask you to articulate that a little bit more. ‘cause you hint in the um, book jacket copy later, AA has things in common with Finn halting who's. Her uncle, the Vampire Hunter. Are you comfortable sharing what those are?Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: What those commonalities are?Andrew: Yeah, I think, I think, [00:14:00] um, uh, Abraham Von Helsing is, is a character from the original novel, um, and he helps guide the team to, uh, uh, find, track down and destroy Dracula. Um. In the world of my novel, his understanding of vampires changes as he's, as he continues to do research on them.And so he's discovered, he's discovered more about them. That will spell out a little bit more in the, uh, in the novel, but. First and foremost, and one of the, one of the primary roles he plays in the, in, in the original novel is a, as a doctor. And that's one thing that Abriana really admires about him. He becomes a bit of a, a, um, a surrogate.Parent to her with her mother dying and her, uh, her father's grief, turning into a little bit of emotional distance from, uh, from Abriana. And so von uh, van Helsing kind of fills that gap and so she associates her. I think her desire [00:15:00] to become a doctor stems from both her birth, you know, ultimately killing her mother, but also because, and, and, and wanting to prevent that from happening to other women, but also because she's seen, you know, van Helsing.Perform his, his service as a doctor. He, she's seen it in action and what it can do and wants to, and wants to, wants to emulate that. And so, and, and I think one of the, one of the things that, that I get excited about is incorporating a little bit of like historic realism into, into the novel as well. And there was in, uh, the 1920s a, a medi, the London School of Medicine for women.Um, it had it, it had been. Open for a, a decade or so. It was still a fairly new school at the time. And so that there was an, uh, a real place that she would've been able to go and get an education is something that, uh, is something that I'm, I'm excited to have part of, part of the novel and like that school wouldn't have been possible if it was not for the Women's Liberation [00:16:00] Movement, which resulted obviously in the universal.In the universal suffrage movement. And so all of that I feel, kind of ties, ties together in a way that I haven't explained very well in my super simple copy, super simple story explanation there.Jennie: So, so that's what I'm trying to get at is Adrianna is not just some random young woman. No, I mean she's, she's very clearly descended from.A, a particular, uh, family who's had a particular thing happen and you know, there several generations. So have you designed her as a protagonist using those elements of the family yet, or, or is it more kind of just convenient that she's there? Does that make sense?Andrew: I think so, [00:17:00] and I think it's probably somewhere in the middle.I think I like the idea of tying her into these characters that who have an existing history, and it then gives her a little bit of, a little bit of, uh, gravitas for the listener when they, when they start digging in that maybe they, maybe they, maybe they have read Dracula, are familiar with those characters and so, okay, this is the next, this is the next generation.But yeah, I mean, I think Abriana reflects. A lot of other things that, that aren't in, that aren't represented in the original novel. Um,Jennie: I guess what I, I guess what I'm saying is it feels, one of my concerns is it feels as if you could write this story about Adriana and not have her beat from this family.She could, she could be kind of. Anyone Gotcha. In this [00:18:00] situation? Gotcha. Does that, am I, am I missing, am I missing that? What would make, you know, let's just, um, I know there's, there's several women in the novel who have, have important roles. So I'm gonna pick a name that's not them. Let's say that, uh, there's a young woman, Catherine, you know, not connected to, um.Ben Helsing not connected to her mother, not connected to that whole thing. And same time period, same motivation. She wants to be a doctor. Maybe she had someone in her family die, and that's her motivation. You know, like suffrages, like that whole story could still play out with Catherine. Uh, am I wrong? I want you to prove me wrong.Andrew: So like, yes, it could, I feel like, I feel like one of the things I like about tying in Van Helsing is it, it presents a red herring, um, in the sense that it's like, oh, we all think. [00:19:00] That we're gonna find out vampires are responsible for all of these deaths. Um, like, I don't know, like, and I, and I can kind of slow burn the, you know, the reveal of vampires in general and, and, and how they end up not actually being the antagonists in this By, by which is So by borrowing, by borrowing his name and sharing his glory a little bit.Yeah.Jennie: Right. But back to Catherine, our, our mm-hmm. Mythical protagonist.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Same thing could happen there. Everybody thinks, oh, the vampires are back. Um, Catherine, you know, they, they keep happening around her. She's gotta figure it out. You know what I mean? So,Andrew: well, so, soJennie: isAndrew: Yeah,Jennie: no, go ahead.Andrew: The question, the question I, I think that I've been grappling a bit with too is do we exist in a world where.Is, does the novel, does the world of the novel, a place where people [00:20:00] have recognized the efforts of Van Helsing and that vampires exist? Is that, is that common knowledge in this world, or is all of that still unknown to folks?Jennie: Okay, this. Is the piece that I've been missing.Andrew: Okay.Jennie: That's exactly the piece that I've been missing.That's totally it. That, so here, this is world building. If anybody's writing anything with magic, fantasy, sci-fi, even just straight up history, and maybe it's a retelling or a re um, imagining, you often know those, those questions for sure. And especially for where for. My understanding, I, I'm, like I said, I'm not a horror reader, but I do know a little bit about Dracula, but the, it was a, a sort of science versus, um, like science played a big role in that.What [00:21:00] can we know? Mm-hmm. What can we prove? What is, what is unknowable?Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Those sorts of things. Absolutely. So that, you've gotta know that here. Mm-hmm. Has it been proved? Is it. Accepted knowledge. Is Van Helsing a hero who's locked away in his lab continuing to, you know, with funding and whatever to research his thing?Or is he some. You know, recluse who was shamed in the public eye and people think he's crazy, like that's gonna color everything. Mm-hmm. Okay. And that's gonna be, that's gonna then be the answer I'm looking for. Like, why Adriana as our protagonist and not Catherine. Right. So she's gonna have that, you imagine her going to medical school with.Those two different stories behind her, how different it's [00:22:00] gonna be when she shows up in the classroom and people know, you know, or when they know who she is.Andrew: Right? Yeah.Jennie: So there, there's a real, the reveal to the reveal to the reader about her connection and who she is and then her, her reveal to the society she lives in about.Who she is and you know, the meaning she makes from all that you know, and did, no matter what you decide about Van Helsing, she then you have to all just also decide about her. Does she agree with the prevailing wisdom? If everybody thinks he's a hero, does she think he, he is too? Or does she think he's kind of whacked and then, um, learns otherwise or, you know, like the or, or the other wayAndrew: around?Jennie: Yeah. Or the other way around. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So yeah, this is the piece that's missing is I feel like you have, and this is what I felt the second I heard you talk about your story. I'm like, oh, this could be so [00:23:00] good. Like, this is so potent, but you're like, you're missing it. You're just, it's like it's, it's like it's not landing as as solid as it should, and I think this is why.Right. I had not been able to figure it out, but. And you have, so I gotta make sure I understand the character. So a Adriana's dad is the brother of Van Helsing.Andrew: Uh, they're not related in the original, in the original novel. They're, they're, uh, they're just friends. Okay. Okay. But they're, but they're clo Okay.They're, they're close friends. And because Van Helsing ultimately saved both of their lives, uh, he is kind of a, a, a surrogate uncle. So, uncle, uncle in quotation marks. Yeah,Jennie: yeah, yeah. Uncle is Is an honorific.Andrew: An honorific, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yep.Jennie: That confused me. Okay. So I thought that there was a direct lineage there.Andrew: Right.Jennie: But there's not No,Andrew: no genetic link. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:24:00]Jennie: But a link through. Her mother a link to Van Healthing Through the mother.Andrew: Yes.Jennie: Um, and, and what happened to her. So, okay. Yeah. We have to understand his role, who he is, what he's doing in the world, what people think of him. Mm-hmm. Um, and also this is important for.Just the environment of your story, because we've got this division, political division around the suffragette movement. Is there, is there o, are there other, um, like, I wanna say mood, like what's the mood of the place where she's, this story's taking place? Is it, you know, a creeping sense of doom on many levels?Uh, is the do the vampire, like, is the fact, oh, maybe the vampires are [00:25:00] back. Does that make sense for the times? Um, like you and I are talking right now in 2026, um, during very extreme political upheaval and also during the time when there's this been this kidnapping of this prominent. Um, media personalities, family member that hasn't been solved.And there's this sense like, well of course this is happening now. Like this, you know, is there a weird, are we gonna have a, um, famous serial killer? Story unfolding in our time. Right. Like, that's what I keep thinking, right? Like there's a sense of, of course these things are going to start happening now ‘cause things are, feel so unstable and unsettled.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Is that what's going on there? [00:26:00]Andrew: I mean, I think potentially yes. I, I've, because yeah, I feel like this, it, it, it, it was an unsettled moment politically. And also a little bit medically as they as like the medical establishment is transitioning from miasma theory to germ theory. And that was kind of late, late, uh, 19th century, early 20th century.But like there's, there's kind of been a, a paradigm shift there. So I think, I feel like yeah, there does wanna be, as you were saying, kind of like this constant, creepy. Creepy feeling. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like to lean into the gothic, like I thought, like, I really want that to pervade every, every chapter, every page.I want that kind of like creeping sensation that that doom is around the corner. Um, that, thatJennie: Right. And doom for many sources. Right. Because I think that that's kind of one of your points.Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Is well, what I'm going back to what [00:27:00] the point, point was. The point we're kind of, um. Leaning toward is people who review, refuse to evolve.When the world demands, it can become monsters. So the world is evolving in many different ways and probably getting the opportunity for a lot of different people to have to evolve in a lot of different ways. It's not just one way. It's not just like, oh, get on this bus, or you're missing. Get on, you know, what's the metaphor?Like you'll miss the boat if you don't get on the boat. But it feels like there's all kinds of boats one, one might miss here, right? Um, I think so. And so that's that. Yeah. Okay, so, so in terms of what to do next, I think your, your homework here is you've gotta get to know Van Haling. Yeah. And the, and the world a little bit better.So I would do some character [00:28:00] development work on, on him and what the world thinks of him and what a Brianna's stepping into the, the light by. Insisting on going to medical school does to Van Haling. Does it delight him? Does it challenge him? Does it, um, you know, what does he think of that? I think that's important.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Um, to know too.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Um,Andrew: a couple, a couple of things that are occurring to me. I think I had taken for granted the reader's knowledge of the events of Dracula, and I don't think I can do that. I think I need to. To develop these characters for my own, as you're saying, I, I gotta, I have to develop Van Van Hels, the Van Helsing character.I have to develop him for, for my own purposes for this novel. Um, which makes a lot of sense.Jennie: Well, that's actually a really good question. You defined your ideal reader in a way that I thought was. [00:29:00] Completely delightful. Like she was so fleshed out. She felt like a, a full on character and I was like, oh, I know that.I know that woman. I loved it. It was great. But an important piece you missed in that is you said that she enjoys books about. London, the city and maybe some horror and gothic, but what is her relationship to Dracula, your ideal reader? You need to know that.Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.Jennie: My, you know, this is what's funny sometimes about being a book coach is I always say that the, the writers, the god of their own story, I can't possibly know everything that the writer knows about what they're writing about, what they've read, what they've thought, how they've lived, any of it.And, and in this particular case, I don't read. I don't read horror. I, I, I could barely tell you the, the bear outlines of Dracula if, if press, [00:30:00] um, I mean, I know the, you know, cartoon, the cartoon version. I, I, I could tell you a little more about Frankenstein only because I, against my will, watched the recent, um.Retelling.Andrew: Oh yeah. I haven't actually seen that yet.Jennie: So I say against my will because I was like, oh my gosh, this is too much for me. But um, you need to know if, so here's a perfect, let me finish my sentence. You need to know if your reader is a fan, is a reader, is a immersed in the gothic world, is gonna know all these things.Know all the tropes and know all the connections or not. And the, um, perfect example of that is, remember that book, um, pride and Prejudice and Zombies?Andrew: Yes.Jennie: So that appeal to people who love Jane Austen.Outro: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Like, you're probably not gonna read that book if you're not a Jane Austen [00:31:00] fan, but if you are a Jane Austen fan, you're, you cannot wait to get your hands on that.And. Also probably if you're a zombie horror fan, you know, you would delight in that even if you didn't understand the depths of the Jane Austen piece. But that book spoke to such a very particular audience that turned out to be a massive audience. Right, right. So, yeah,Andrew: yeah, yeah.Jennie: You know, I think you need to make a decision.Are you writing for someone like me who's, who's like, I don't know, like I think when I first read it, I was like. Who's Ben Sing? And you're like, he's the famous guy from the thing, right? So are you writing for someone like me or does your, a avatar, your ideal reader hear, you know, does she watch the movie?Does she, does she read the books? Does she gobble that stuff up?Andrew: Right? Yeah.Jennie: What, what is your instinct right now?Andrew: Singling out one or the other is going to, is going to change [00:32:00] how I write the book. Um. What is my instinct? Uh, I dunno. When I think about the character that I, that the character of the reader that I fleshed out in the blueprint, um,Jennie: yeah,Andrew: I don't think she necessarily would have read Dracula.She might be familiar with the story, but she might not have, um, uh, have read, uh, Dracula itself.Jennie: Okay. So yeah, let's get to, let's get really clear on that. Mm-hmm. Because it's gonna really change. And for those listening. The ideal reader. Oftentimes people think it's just a throwaway part of the blueprint because they kind of can just picture, you know, generally who their reader is.I mean, first of all, no part of the blueprint is the throwaway. Uh, something really important can come from any one of these. So really go back to your ideal reader. And think about them in relationship to their story. ‘cause this [00:33:00] conversation reveals how drastically you would change the writing of this book, depending on your ideal reader's relationship to the, to Dracula.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: And, and there's no right answer. Either answer's. Great. Right. So, um, so that's, I just put that on the list of, of things too, um, that you're gonna be thinking about. Um. So once you get that, so yeah, the understanding of of Van Healthy's re reputation in the universe right now is going to be the way that you bring your reader up to speed a little bit.Right? Like famous Vampire Hunter still doing his thing or, or. Famous vampire hunter, you know, shamed and, uh, not doing his thing. Um, that's, those are gonna tie [00:34:00] together,Andrew: right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.Jennie: And cement down the world that we're coming into, um, more.Andrew: Absolutely. No, I can, I can see how that will change things.Yeah.Jennie: Okay. So, um. We're not gonna have time to dig, to dig into this yet, but I just wanna touch on it so that, um, when you're doing this work, you can be thinking about, um, thinking about this piece, but the, um, there's a cause and effect trajectory that's obviously what the inside outline is. And at some really key places in yours, you miss an opportunity to to tie in.So we always want our protagonist to have agency to be making the [00:35:00] decisions that cause things to get worse or cause them to be in a worse position or, um, and, and there's several places in your inside outline where. Things just sort of happen, which is the plot, and then she sort of happens to be there.But if you understand better these parts of her and her connection to this, uh, the not her uncle now, uh, her, this guy, uh, and her connection to what's happened with her mother and those things, then we wanna use that to push the story. To push the, so the plot has to serve the story. So the things that happen are gonna push your character in ways they don't wanna be pushed to make decisions that are gonna then push them further and, and they're gonna get deeper and deeper each time.And [00:36:00] you have a murder mystery. So each murder, we wanna feel more and more as if. She is boxing herself in by what she does. By what she thinks. By what she believes, by what she wants. And the, the CLO is gonna squeeze her to the point where she asks to make a, a big decision, you know, comes, that's the climax, comes to that like, will I, in this case, um, confront.Uh, both the murderer and her father is kind of where it all ends, so,Andrew: yeah. Yeah.Jennie: You know, it's not gonna be just like, and now we arrive at a place where she confronts the people. It's gotta be like. Gut wrenching along the way. Right,Andrew: right.Jennie: So, um, there's a lot to say there, and I made some comments on the outline, which, which you'll see [00:37:00] sort of my thoughts and thinking there, but I actually think that this conversation we've had is gonna be the solution because the, the big question I had was, is it coincidental that Adriana is.These murders are sort of following her around and people think that it, she might be responsible. Is that coincidental or is there something real there? Yeah. Do you know the answer or not?Andrew: I, I, I'm, I've been thinking about that and I think there are ways that it's not entirely coincidental. I mean, obviously she's not causing the murders, but I think, I think yes, I think there are things that she does that prompts these.That prompts these women to become targets of the murderer.Jennie: That's what I hoped you were gonna say. Yeah, because that's what's gonna, that's like, it's, I think this was on the page and maybe you didn't realize it, but. [00:38:00] Being friends with Adriana is a little dangerous,right?Andrew: Yes. Yes. I think that could be, that could definitely be part of the part, part of the, part of the theme there. Yeah.Jennie: So that, that shouldn't, that shouldn't be coincidental. Well, and this is what's so, so great about the blueprint and showing it to a critique partner or a writing group or an editor or a book coach, is.Somebody else can say, do you see that you're doing this thing that's actually really cool? Or do you, do you see that you're not doing this? Like it's things are just revealed. So,Andrew: yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.Jennie: So let's just wrap this up. Your next iteration, you're gonna work on sharpening your point. You're gonna work on sharpening the super simple story so that the Dracula connection is clear.Dracula connection to your [00:39:00] protagonist is, is more clear and you're gonna under in order to do that. You're gonna understand then Helsing, the world that we live in and what his relationship of that world is 20 years after Dracula. What, what is happening with him? What is happening with the world? And and that's gonna help inform the connection between your.Protagonist in these things. And then I think you already answered the ideal reader, but just make sure that you're comfortable with that, that she's not a super fan. This is not a insider. Um, folks who know and love and read Dracula, it's, it's more someone like me. He was a little clueless. And then if you have time to dig into.How that all plays out in the cause and effect of the inside outline. That's, that's where I would go. [00:40:00] So it's, um, I had an agent, my first agent, way back in the day, used to say, run it through the typewriter one more time because we were actually writing on typewriter. Yeah. Right. Back in the day. And, uh, that's kind of what I feel, you know, with these ideas in mind, like, run it all through one more time and let, let it all flow through One more time.Um, and we'll see where it goes.Andrew: Excellent. No, this sounds good. This is, this is some good homework. I'm looking forward to, to digging into this now.Jennie: I know. I can't wait to see too, and I hope our listeners have enjoyed, uh, going along on this conversation and gotten some inspiration for what, how to pressure test your own, uh, blueprint.And if you're not doing the blueprint. Uh, also fine, but pressure test what you're writing. Uh, this is just a tool for doing that, but there's this kind of questioning and making sure that things are not [00:41:00] assumed. That's, that's the key, right? It's that you, you sort of make these assumptions, but we have to articulate them and pin them down so that we can use them to make a much better story.Well, thank you Andrew. Really thank you for being willing to, uh, expose yourself in this way. Come out from behind the mic, uh, share your journey. It's not easy to do that, and I appreciate it.Andrew: Well, it's, it's fun. Thank you for pushing me outside my comfort zone. Uh, I've really enjoyed this.Jennie: I have too. So, uh, for our list.Thanks for joining in. Now let's get back to work.Outro: The hashtag am writing podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone [00:42:00] deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcomeToday's guest is Courtney Maum—novelist, memoirist, and author of Before and After the Book Deal—and she talks candidly about the reality of a writing career, the myth of the breakout book, and why longevity matters more than literary hype.In this episode, Courtney breaks down what publishing actually looks like across every lane: Big Five launches with national tours, indie presses that nurture your inner “art witch,” and self-publishing born out of necessity. She shares the story behind the book that almost never happened—and how the lowest advance of her career became the one that defined her platform—plus why the industry now expects authors to function as marketers, publicists, event planners, and content creators all at once.We also discuss building an audience in the newsletter era, the limits of social media, and why “a thousand true fans” is a better goal than virality. Courtney explains how writers can protect their mental health in a system built on comparison, what's actually changed since 2020 (AI, proposals, platform pressure), and why readers—not gatekeepers—ultimately determine a book's shelf life. This conversation is essential listening for any writer trying to build a sustainable creative career in today's publishing landscape.Preorder Courtney Maum's latest book Alan Opts Out and preorder Courtney Kocak's debut memoir Girl Gone Wild.Subscribe to Courtney Maum's Substack Before & After The Book Deal. Follow her on Instagram @cbmaum, and buy your copy of Before and After the Book Deal on Bookshop.org, or wherever books are sold!The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:Land Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminarSo You Want to Start a Podcast?: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-podcast-workshop-courtney-kocakEdit & Elevate: Revision Intensive: https://writingworkshops.com/products/edit-elevate-revision-intensive-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocakHow to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminarStart a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminar

This is a Bonus Episode, which means that it doesn't have any of the beautiful audio engineering from our amazing team.In this Bonus Episode, Jennie Nash talks with physician-writer Carolyn Roy Bornstein about how one Blueprint exercise brought clarity to a long-stalled book project. By identifying a single ideal reader, Carolyn was able to see exactly who she was writing for and shape A Prescription for Burnout with purpose and focus.They discuss why audience clarity matters and how the Blueprint can unlock momentum at the right moment in the writing process.Our guest, Carolyn Roy Bornstein, MD is a retired pediatrician, narrative medicine teacher, and author whose work explores the healing power of reflective writing. Her forthcoming book, A Prescription for Burnout: Restorative Writing for Healthcare Professionals, will be published by Johns Hopkins University Press. Carolyn draws on her clinical experience, her own journey through trauma and recovery, and her work with healthcare trainees to help writers—and caregivers—find voice, purpose, and resilience through the written word.Join Us for the Blueprint Challenge Starting January 12Hi there supporters and subscribers! Many of you are joining the Winter Blueprint for a Book, and if that's you, you must opt-in to receive posts, AMAs, write-alongs and podcasts. In 10 weeks, future you will be thanking current you for all the work you put in to figure out what you want this book to be—and how to best get it there, whether you're starting fresh with a new draft or revising something that still hasn't come together.If you don't opt in (how-to below), this will be the only Blueprint-related email that comes your way. (So no worries and no extra emails for those of us having a normal chaotic writing season!)And for those of you who haven't yet signed up—WHAT are you waiting for? This is a killer deal—put in an hour a week (okay, maybe more some weeks) and you could have a blueprint in hand by March—with a cohort, AMAs, write-alongs and plenty of help. Last chance—or at least, this is the last time we'll prod you. If you decide to jump in next week, we'll be here.Want to learn more? We published a whole series about the joys and benefits of the Blueprint:* What the Blueprint is and why Jennie made it* Introducing the winter book coach hosts* Overcoming Pantsing Pitfalls: How the Blueprint Method Can Save Your Story* The Blueprint is the Solution for Time-Strapped Writers* How to Use a Blueprint for Revision* Befriending the Blueprint* Using Mindfulness to Master the BlueprintNot yet a paid subscriber? There's still time—in fact, there's still a special deal in place for those who want to jump in: 20% off an annual subscription until 1/15/25, and you can spend the next ten weeks figuring out what you want this book to be, instead of writing 250K words over the course of the year to achieve the same thing. Ask me how I know.To join Blueprint for a Book, you must opt-in and set up your podcast feed. Don't worry, it's simple! Click here to go to your #AmWriting account, and when you see this screen, do two things:* Toggle “Blueprint for a Book” from “off” (grey) to “on” (orange).* Click “set up podcast” next to Winter 2025 Blueprint for a Book and follow the easy instructions. (It is MUCH easier to do this step on your phone.)Once you set those things up, you'll get all the future Blueprint emails and podcasts (and if you're joining the party a bit late, just head to our website and click on Blueprint for a Book Winter 2025 in the top menu). This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this Write Big session of the #amWriting Podcast, Jennie Nash talks with author and book coach Janet Fox about a powerful decision: buying back the rights to her first novel and reissuing it on her own terms.Janet shares her journey through traditional publishing, what it took to reclaim ownership of her work, and why legacy—not trends or permission—now guides her creative choices. This conversation is a clear-eyed, inspiring look at what it means to stop waiting and start owning your writing life.In this episode:* What it really means to buy back your book rights* Why “out of print” doesn't have to mean the end* Publishing as a tool—not an identity* Self-publishing, kid lit, and changing industry realities* Ownership, legacy, and writing from the heartThis episode is a powerful reminder that your work belongs to you—and that writing big often begins with claiming what you've already made.Mentioned in Episode* Darcy Pattison* 100 Covers* BookFunnel* Draft2Digital* Jane Friedman newsletter* Janet's SubstackGuest BioJanet Fox has worn many hats—English teacher, oceanographer, rock band singer—but her favorite is “award-winning children's author.” She's written thirteen books for kids and teens, from science nonfiction to mysterious middle grade to swoony YA. Janet holds an MFA from Vermont College of Fine Arts and is an Author Accelerator Certified Book Coach. She lives in Montana with her husband, and their lively yellow lab. When she's not writing, she helps fellow storytellers find their voice and bring their best work to life. Her stories are full of heart and always have just a touch of magic. Find her here: janetsfox.comJoin the Blueprint SprintStarting January 12 and rolling though February, KJ Dell'Antonia and Jennie Nash will lead you through the 14 foundational questions that every writer should ask of themselves and their book, whether you're just getting started, are mid-draft or starting on on the whatever-number revision with weekly assignments, live events, workbooks and updated access to all the Blueprint resources. All you need to do is be a paid subscriber and stay tuned—we'll let you know how to get signed up.I NEED a January Blueprint!What if you want even MORE? Then you could be one of a very few #AmWriting subscribers who join our first ever Blueprint Sprint cohort. 6 weeks of working together and write-alongs, 5 group-only live sessions, which will be recorded for anyone who can't attend and a members-only community dedicated to helping you create a Blueprint that leads you to the book you want to write, ending with direct feedback from me and from Jennie on your flap copy and 3 page Inside-Outline.We're keeping this small on purpose—we max out at 10 and we might drop that down—so applications to join this group open today and will be evaluated on a first-come, first serve basis. Once we have 10 people, we will close down the application, so get yours in early! Early-bird pricing is $1000 until December 22, after that the price goes up to $1200 (if there are spaces left by then).What are we looking for? 10 writers who are prepared to commit to the process and to the cohort, who do what they set out to do when they set out to do it, who welcome constructive feedback and are willing to do what it takes to build a blueprint for the book they want to create. Writers who know that sometimes you must look a hard truth in the face and cut your losses, that what goes in the scrap heap is rarely resurrected but that the scrap heap is a necessary part of the work. Writers who won't take no for an answer, but can hear “not this” and feel both disappointment and a burning determination that the next effort will be the one that gets there.Also: no a******s.What will you need to apply? We want to hear about your professional and publishing backgrounds, but no publishing experience is necessary. We want to know where you are with this current project, but “still noodling” is a fine answer. The primary requirements are first, a readiness to do the work and second and more ephemerally, our sense of what makes a cohesive cohort.If that sounds like you, here you go—the time to apply is now.Links & Resources* Learn more about the Blueprint tools* Substack about how each genre has a different primary goal in the Blueprint* #amwriting Episode about the Blueprint origin story and why it's such a powerful tool. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcomeToday's guest is Sari Botton, writer, editor, and publisher of the Substack hits Oldster and Memoir Land, joining The Bleeders to talk candidly about her unconventional path through publishing, why she ultimately chose ownership, longevity, and creative control over chasing traditional industry validation, and how she built a thriving ecosystem around her work.In this episode, Sari breaks down what it really takes to build a sustainable writing and publishing career outside the gatekeepers. She shares how she launched bestselling anthologies like Goodbye to All That and Never Can Say Goodbye after being repeatedly told “you can't do that,” what it was like working at Longreads during a pivotal moment in digital publishing, and why Substack ultimately gave her the freedom she'd been seeking all along. We also dig into her debut memoir And You May Find Yourself... and the realities of publishing creative nonfiction, including the emotional and ethical challenges of writing about real people, the importance of blurring and revision, and why small presses—and even self-publishing—can sometimes offer more protection and creative freedom than major publishers. This conversation is a must-listen for writers questioning what success in publishing actually looks like in the creator economy.Subscribe to Sari's Substacks Oldster, Memoir Land, and Adventures in "Journalism." Follow her on Instagram @saribotton, and buy your copy of And You May Find Yourself... on Bookshop.org, or wherever books are sold!The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:How to Make 2026 Your Best Writing Year Yet: Manifest Your Writing Goals: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-make-2026-your-best-writing-year-yet-manifest-your-writing-goals-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocakNew Year's Newsletter & Pitch Party Extravaganza (use code BLEEDERS for $100 off): https://www.courtneykocak.com/store/new-years-newsletter-pitch-party-extravaganza-2026How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminarStart a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminarLand Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminarSo You Want to Start a Podcast?: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-podcast-workshop-courtney-kocakEdit & Elevate: Revision Intensive: https://writingworkshops.com/products/edit-elevate-revision-intensive-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocak

In this Write Big episode, Jennie reflects on the winter solstice as a powerful metaphor for the writing life. Using the natural turning of the year—from darkness back toward light—she explores what it means to keep choosing your work, especially when fear, rejection, discomfort, or uncertainty creep in. Writing big, she reminds us, isn't about eliminating darkness; it's about practicing the return to what lights you up again and again.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Join the Blueprint SprintStarting January 12 and rolling though February, KJ Dell'Antonia and Jennie Nash will lead you through the 14 foundational questions that every writer should ask of themselves and their book, whether you're just getting started, are mid-draft or starting on on the whatever-number revision with weekly assignments, live events, workbooks and updated access to all the Blueprint resources. All you need to do is be a paid subscriber and stay tuned—we'll let you know how to get signed up.I NEED a January Blueprint!What if you want even MORE? Then you could be one of a very few #AmWriting subscribers who join our first ever Blueprint Sprint cohort. 6 weeks of working together and write-alongs, 5 group-only live sessions, which will be recorded for anyone who can't attend and a members-only community dedicated to helping you create a Blueprint that leads you to the book you want to write, ending with direct feedback from me and from Jennie on your flap copy and 3 page Inside-Outline.We're keeping this small on purpose—we max out at 10 and we might drop that down—so applications to join this group open today and will be evaluated on a first-come, first serve basis. Once we have 10 people, we will close down the application, so get yours in early! Early-bird pricing is $1000 until December 22, after that the price goes up to $1200 (if there are spaces left by then).What are we looking for? 10 writers who are prepared to commit to the process and to the cohort, who do what they set out to do when they set out to do it, who welcome constructive feedback and are willing to do what it takes to build a blueprint for the book they want to create. Writers who know that sometimes you must look a hard truth in the face and cut your losses, that what goes in the scrap heap is rarely resurrected but that the scrap heap is a necessary part of the work. Writers who won't take no for an answer, but can hear “not this” and feel both disappointment and a burning determination that the next effort will be the one that gets there.Also: no a******s.What will you need to apply? We want to hear about your professional and publishing backgrounds, but no publishing experience is necessary. We want to know where you are with this current project, but “still noodling” is a fine answer. The primary requirements are first, a readiness to do the work and second and more ephemerally, our sense of what makes a cohesive cohort.If that sounds like you, here you go—the time to apply is now. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

It's the December Booklab, and while our booklabs are normally only for subscribers, we've made this one free as a little present to you—something to listen to while all the other pods are having a well deserved break.How this works: we've chosen two among the brave souls who have submitted their first pages (i.e. first 350 words) to us. As always, we read the page aloud, with no other information other than genre and (sometimes) title. We talk about what we read, how it was received, what we think we do and don't know about the book and what we should know. We offer constructive comments to these writers, and to all writers, on how to make that first page work as hard for you as it can.And then we answer the question: would we turn the page?Kids, those first pages have to WORK. People download a book, or grab an audio sample, often without the benefit of your flap copy or the beautiful cover, and you need to sell them on sticking around from that first minute. The two entries for this episode:* The Burning Truth is a commercial thriller centered on a woman whose sister's death is reopened when a teenage true-crime podcaster starts investigating a case that hits dangerously close to home.* Camil and Bloom is contemporary literary fiction about a middle-aged woman at a bar grappling with being ghosted, using sharp observational detail to explore loneliness, aging, and stalled lives.Our takeaway is that a first page must work with extreme efficiency: it needs to establish character, stakes, and story direction all at once. Vivid details and strong writing aren't enough on their own; those details have to be focused and clearly tied to the protagonist's emotional core so readers understand whose story this is and why it matters. A compelling hook helps, but clarity of perspective and purpose is what ultimately makes a reader turn the page.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcomeToday's guest is author and entrepreneur Ali Kriegsman, joining The Bleeders to talk candidly about her path through traditional publishing, burnout, rejection—and ultimately choosing to self-publish her debut novel "The Raise" on her own terms.In this episode, Ali breaks down what it really took to launch a book without a traditional publisher: owning 100% of her rights, deciding not to invest in PR, building a highly visual TikTok-driven campaign, and treating herself as the CEO of her own book launch—and it WORKED. Ali even earned the Reese's Book Club stamp of approval!Ali opens up about the ego hit of not selling her novel on submission, the mindset shift required to embrace self-publishing, and how redefining success helped her rebuild confidence in her creative work. We also dig into the realities of book marketing, the trade-offs between traditional and self-publishing, genre confusion, rights ownership, audiobook decisions, and why writers have to decide what they're optimizing for—whether that's bestseller lists, longevity, or adaptation potential.Subscribe to Ali's Substack New Motives, follow her on Instagram @alikriegs, and buy your copy of The Raise on Bookshop.org, Amazon, or wherever books are sold!The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:How to Make 2026 Your Best Writing Year Yet: Manifest Your Writing Goals: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-make-2026-your-best-writing-year-yet-manifest-your-writing-goals-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocakNew Year's Newsletter & Pitch Party Extravaganza (use code BLEEDERS for $100 off): https://www.courtneykocak.com/store/new-years-newsletter-pitch-party-extravaganza-2026How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminarStart a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminarLand Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminarSo You Want to Start a Podcast?: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-podcast-workshop-courtney-kocakEdit & Elevate: Revision Intensive: https://writingworkshops.com/products/edit-elevate-revision-intensive-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocak

Most writers start revision by re-reading their manuscript from page one — but that's the least effective way to improve a book. In this episode, Jenny explains a clearer, more strategic way to revise using the Blueprint and the 3D Revision Process. You'll learn how to step back, see your book with fresh eyes, and create a plan that actually moves your manuscript from good to great. We also invite you to join the upcoming Blueprint Sprint.In this episode you'll learn:* Why a full-manuscript read is often the wrong first step in revision* The mindset shift every writer needs before diving into revisions* How to use the Blueprint to create a clear, confident revision plan before touching your pagesJoin the Blueprint SprintStarting January 12 and rolling though February, KJ Dell'Antonia and Jennie Nash will lead you through the 14 foundational questions that every writer should ask of themselves and their book, whether you're just getting started, are mid-draft or starting on on the whatever-number revision with weekly assignments, live events, workbooks and updated access to all the Blueprint resources. All you need to do is be a paid subscriber and stay tuned—we'll let you know how to get signed up.I NEED a January Blueprint!What if you want even MORE? Then you could be one of a very few #AmWriting subscribers who join our first ever Blueprint Sprint cohort. 6 weeks of working together and write-alongs, 5 group-only live sessions, which will be recorded for anyone who can't attend and a members-only community dedicated to helping you create a Blueprint that leads you to the book you want to write, ending with direct feedback from me and from Jennie on your flap copy and 3 page Inside-Outline.We're keeping this small on purpose—we max out at 10 and we might drop that down—so applications to join this group open today and will be evaluated on a first-come, first serve basis. Once we have 10 people, we will close down the application, so get yours in early! Early-bird pricing is $1000 until December 22, after that the price goes up to $1200 (if there are spaces left by then).What are we looking for? 10 writers who are prepared to commit to the process and to the cohort, who do what they set out to do when they set out to do it, who welcome constructive feedback and are willing to do what it takes to build a blueprint for the book they want to create. Writers who know that sometimes you must look a hard truth in the face and cut your losses, that what goes in the scrap heap is rarely resurrected but that the scrap heap is a necessary part of the work. Writers who won't take no for an answer, but can hear “not this” and feel both disappointment and a burning determination that the next effort will be the one that gets there.Also: no a******s.What will you need to apply? We want to hear about your professional and publishing backgrounds, but no publishing experience is necessary. We want to know where you are with this current project, but “still noodling” is a fine answer. The primary requirements are first, a readiness to do the work and second and more ephemerally, our sense of what makes a cohesive cohort.If that sounds like you, here you go—the time to apply is now.Links & Resources* Learn more about the Blueprint tools* Substack about how each genre has a different primary goal in the Blueprint * #amwriting Episode about the Blueprint origin story and why it's such a powerful tool: Transcript Below!#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.“Revision means stepping back, thinking big picture, and being brave enough to rebuild.”SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHi writers, the Winter Blueprint Challenge 2026 is on, and I can't wait to do it, and I can't wait to tell you about it. Okay, so this time around, we're going to have two ways to play. First, we'll run the Blueprint for supporters, 10 weeks of Blueprint assignments, live events, and encouragement starting January 12, 2026—or, and this is the big news, apply to join our very first Blueprint cohort—10 of you will become a small group that receives direct feedback from me and from Jennie on flap copy and the three page Inside-Outline, and joins five group only live sessions and becomes a part of a members-only community dedicated to helping you create a blueprint that leads you to the book you want to start and finish. Applications to join this group open December 15, 2025 and will be evaluated on a first come, first-serve basis. Once we have 10 people, we're going to close down the application. So get yours in early. Early-bird pricing for the small cohort is $1,000 until December 22 after that, the price goes up to $1200 (if there are even spaces left by then). I am so excited about this. So get your application in early. The regular Blueprint will run for supporters at the usual supporter pricing, but this other cohort is going to be really special details on how and where to apply are in the show notes, or they're going to be pretty prominently displayed at AmWriting podcast.comEPISODE TRANSCRIPTMultiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it's recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.Jennie NashHey everyone, it's Jennie Nash, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters. Today, I want to talk about why most writers approach revision the wrong way, and how to use the Blueprint to do it right. Most people think revision starts with reading the whole manuscript, but the truth is I think that's the last thing you should do. Before we dive into why I think that, and what I think you should do instead, I want to talk a little bit about what I call the “revision mindset.”When you finish a manuscript, it's really tempting to think, okay, I've got it, I did it, I'll just polish it up a little and be done. But real revision requires openness—being open to seeing the strengths and the weaknesses and the changes that you need to make in the manuscript to take it from good to great. This can feel really vulnerable. I know for me, at this point, I worry that changing one thing is going to break everything else. You feel so close to the finish line that you don't want to touch anything. But holding that tightly—that kind of clenching—is exactly what stops the revision process from working. It's important to remember that revising is big-picture work. It's not line editing. Revising is stepping back, seeing what's really on the page, and being willing to reshape it. So a “revision mindset” is that openness and that willingness to look at it, to be real about what's there and what you want it to be, and to be willing to do what it takes to get it there. So a good revision is going to start with that mindset. And if we start there, you can begin to see why doing a full manuscript read-through from page one, marching straight through all the way to the end, is going to lead to trouble. There are two particular things that happen if you approach revision in that way.The first problem is when you go to read the book from page one chronologically all the way through—maybe you wrote it that way, maybe you didn't—but in any case, if that's how you approach revision, what tends to happen is that you fall into line editing instead of big-picture thinking. You begin to think, oh, this line is really great, or maybe I should fix that line, or maybe the flow here is a little off from this line to the other. You stay in the weeds, and you lose sight of structure and purpose and the big arc of your story or argument. The second problem with starting revision with a full manuscript read is when you ask somebody else to do that reading for you. Basically, what you're doing is handing over your power to somebody else. You're saying you look at this, tell me what you think, tell me how to fix it, tell me what's wrong. And the problem with that is the tendency to get feedback and then just do everything they ask without thinking strategically through what you want to do or what you want your revision to accomplish. And a corollary of that problem is that usually when people are doing that full manuscript read for you, they're just dumping all this stuff on you. They're giving you this long litany of things that they see in the manuscript, or things that they think you should fix, and that list might include small things and big things and important things and not important things. It's so easy to just get overwhelmed with the process.As a book coach, that's what I see all the time. People get into revision, they get overwhelmed, they freeze up, they don't know what to do first. It's so easy to feel defeated. And that's the moment when so many writers stall out and shelve the project. They put it in a folder on their desktop—the proverbial drawer—and it's just away, and they're done, and they can't face it. And then the idea of going back to that huge amount of work and trying to figure it out becomes too daunting, and they just don't. So I don't recommend starting your revision with the full manuscript read.I have a different approach that I teach book coaches at Author Accelerator, and it's called the “3D revision process.” It has three parts. The first is a process of inquiry. We use the Blueprint to ask key questions about the project. The second step is mapping everything out using the outline at the end of the Blueprint in a specific way. And the third step is strategizing. We look at that outline and we prioritize what changes need to be made using the stoplight strategy. I'm going to explain all these things in a minute, but the point is that this process gives you clarity, confidence, and a specific, actionable plan for approaching your revision—which is the dream.Okay, so let's walk through it. Step one is this process of inquiry, and using the Blueprint to walk us through that. In an earlier episode, which I'll link to in the show notes, I talked about why I created the Blueprint and why I refer to it as a process of inquiry, rather than a story structure method. The process of inquiry allows the writer to look at the foundational aspects of what they're writing and to look at the work from this big-picture angle that usually they skip. There are 14 questions no matter which genre you're working on, but they all start with these really basic questions, like, why are you writing this book? What's your point? Who's your reader, and what do they want? And are you giving it to them?Using the Blueprint to start a project, and answering these questions before you begin, is a really powerful way to think about what you want to do in the book, and a powerful way to get your vision clear. But when you have a finished manuscript and you go back to these questions, it's a whole different ball game. It's almost like a test. Can you answer these questions clearly and confidently based on what you know is there? Have you, in other words, put on the page the vision that you had in your head? So you go through the 14 questions honestly, answering them based on what you actually have, and it becomes this kind of assessment or challenge or test, like, did I do what I wanted to accomplish? And it's really easy in those 14 questions to see if you didn't. If you can't confidently answer one of the questions, you know that that's pointing toward a potential weakness in the book.If I give the 14 Blueprint questions to somebody who has written a manuscript that they love and that is close to the vision that they had for it, they're able to knock those questions out and answer them with such authority and power, and it's just an amazing thing to see. And when they can't, and they're coming to the questions with that openness I talked about before, then it's like, okay, look, we still don't have this piece nailed down. We still have to figure out this part of the story or the argument that you're making, so it becomes a first pass at what is really there and what strengths and weaknesses are on the page.The second step in the “3D revision process” is to map out what you have, and we do this with the outline that is at the end of each of the Blueprints. If you've gone through the previous questions in the Blueprint, you're looking at those foundational aspects, the structural elements of the story, all the things that hold up what you've written, and then the outline is, okay, here's what I've actually written. If you're at the start of a project, you want that outline to be no more than three pages. I'm very strict about this, and there's a reason for that. It's because we need to contain or constrain the creative process so that we can see what it is you're wanting to make or to build. If someone goes on and on at that stage of the writing process, they're not making good decisions and they're not thinking about the big picture. But when you keep it to three pages, you're forced to do that, and it's a really awesome process.With revision, I loosen those rules, and the reason is that for revision, I want this outline to be what I call an “as-is outline.” So this is not what you intend to write, or what you hope to write, or what you plan to write, which is what it is at the beginning of a project. Now it's what is actually there. So the as-is outline is capturing what you actually wrote, not what you intended to write. So you use the manuscript, obviously, to get this information and to pin down an outline of what is actually there. And there's still a constraint. I suggest that you keep this as-is outline to about 10 pages, and you absolutely need to follow the rules of the genre that I outline in the Blueprint. Each of the genres has a specific outline and a specific thing that we're looking for in that outline, and I designed that to solve for the things that people most often get wrong in that genre.I wrote a Substack post, which I'll link to in the show notes, which explains what each of those things are, and I'll link to that in the show notes. But you want to follow the rules of the outline, so that you make sure you're not making the foundational problems of that genre. But then you have these 10 pages to capture what you've actually done on the page, and this as-is outline is where the big insights happen. When you step back and you look at this as-is outline, you can see where the momentum drops, where scenes or chapters repeat themselves, where your structure might be broken, where a subplot might take over, or, in nonfiction, where you veer off in some other direction. You can see where two memoir scenes are doing the same emotional work, or where a nonfiction chapter doesn't drive towards the outcome that you're leading your reader to. You can see so much in this outline, and that's why this process is so powerful. The outline becomes a kind of X-ray of what you've actually written on the page.And that leads us to step three of the “3D revision process” which is you're going to analyze that outline. You're going to bring some strategic thinking to what you have there. Each of the Blueprints has a checklist for their particular outline, and you want to go through those checklists and really ask yourself, have I done this? Have I done that? Have I done the other? The kinds of questions that checklist asks are things like, am I giving the reader what they want and expect? Does my outline include the essential elements of my genre or category? What's missing, what's out of order, what's unclear, what's unnecessary? So it's strategic thinking about the material that you have created.One of my favorite books about the creative process is Creativity, Inc., by Ed Catmull. It's the story of the creation of Pixar, the company, and in that book, he talks about the Brain Trust, which is a very small group of writers who help each other to create the best possible stories. And they have this process in the Brain Trust that's called giving good notes. And good notes are clear, they're factual, they're strategic, and that's what you're doing here for yourself. You're giving yourself good notes. And if at this point you want to bring in a trusted partner to help you brainstorm and to help you look at your material and look at your notes and help you brainstorm solutions, this is a great time to bring in somebody to help you brainstorm and to look at your as-is outline and look at the notes that you've made for yourself, because instead of just handing the job over to somebody else, you're saying, I have done this work of looking at my work in a strategic way. I know what I've done well, I know what my weaknesses are, and now I'm ready to solve those problems.So a great critique partner or a trusted beta reader or a book coach…obviously, are great people to bring in at this stage of the process. And what's awesome is you're not asking them to sit down and spend 15 or 20 hours reading a whole manuscript and trying to figure out what you want or what you were trying to do, or how it all lands for them, and giving you this info dump of information. You're asking them to look at your Blueprint, to look at your answers to the 14 questions, and your as-is outline, and your analysis of that outline. And what you'll be doing, either on your own or in partnership, is prioritizing what needs to happen in the revision.The tool that I teach coaches to do this is called the “stoplight strategy.” And what we're doing is we're trying to categorize the problems that we see in a manuscript by their severity. So red light problems are major structural issues, yellow light problems are medium-level issues, and green light problems are line-level edits. I designed the stoplight strategy because so many writers think that revision is about green light issues. So many of them start with line-level edits. And as I spoke about before, the tendency if you're doing a full manuscript read is to fall into that rhythm of just seeing the green light things, or maybe a few yellow light things. But it's very hard to see the red light things, which are the things that are going to bring your book down. They're the fatal flaws, and most writers never find the time to actually look at those things.So they might be things like, I've got to start this novel in a totally different place, or I have to chop off five chapters of my memoir, or I have to restructure my entire nonfiction argument in a different way to make it land. But if you've approached the process that I'm explaining with that openness, that revision mindset, and that curiosity about how can I make this better, and if you've gone through it in this systematic way, and you found some red light issues, they tend not to sting quite so much. They tend to feel manageable. Okay, I can fix this one big thing. And if I fix this one big thing, the next thing that I need to fix is probably going to be obvious, and then the next one is going to be obvious. So you're leading yourself to a prioritization of what needs to happen in the revision, rather than looking at everything in the same way, meaning every little green light issue has the same weight as the yellow light issues and the same weight as the red light issues.When we step out of doing the work chronologically, and we approach it in this more strategic way, we tend to focus on the red light issues. And again, they just tend not to feel quite so awful.So the next step in the process is you take that as-is outline, and you turn it into a “what's-next outline,” a map of what the book is going to become in revision. On that outline, you mark what gets cut, what gets moved, what needs to be added, what shifts are you going to make because of the big changes, and you actually make them in the outline, so that the outline reflects where you're going with your revision.And that's how we close the gap between what you've written and what you want to write. That's where you get closer to your vision of what you want this book to be. And that's why this process is so powerful, because now you have a clear map of what you need to do in revision. You have a clear plan for how you're going to go execute those things, so you're not guessing and you're not lost in overwhelm. You have this what's-next outline that you're going to go in and follow. And if you want to start at the beginning and make all the revisions in chronological order, you can. Or if you want to go in and fix the big red light issues first, you can. And you can use this what's-next outline as a kind of external hard drive to hold all the changes that you want to make in your revision, so that you're not holding them all in your head.Doing the revision in this way might actually mean going in and working on, let's say, chapter 10, 11, and 12, and not touching anything else. It might mean going in and working on chapters 13 and 27 and not touching anything else. It's not necessarily a chronological process. You're going to follow the what's-next outline and do what needs to be done in the manuscript.And once you do that, now is the time when a full manuscript read can make a lot of sense. Now you can go through from beginning to end knowing that you don't have any big structural issues. There are no red light issues in this manuscript anymore. There are no yellow light issues. You don't have to think about those or worry about those. You can go through and do the thing that most people do at the beginning of their revision process, which is polishing the prose and making everything sing and working on the line-by-line writing. You've already done the heavy lifting.If you're excited about using the Blueprint in your revision and you want to work through it with a community of other writers who are doing it too, we'd love to have you join our upcoming Blueprint Challenge. You're going to go through the Blueprint step by step along with people who are revising their books or people who are starting from scratch. It's the same 14 questions, and people will be working on fiction, they'll be working on memoir, and they'll be working on nonfiction. KJ is going to be leading the charge of this Blueprint, and she's going to be doing some write-alongs and AMAs and different things to support people while you work through those Blueprint questions. And I'm going to be in there a few times as well.This is the fourth time we've done the Blueprint Challenge at the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, and it gets better and better every time as more and more people do it. And you can find critique partners in there to help you with your Blueprint questions, maybe to look at your as-is outline, because they understand the process. They understand what's going on. They understand what this is all about. And it's just a really fun and powerful way to approach either a new book or the revision of a book that you want to work on.You can check the show notes for details on how to sign up for the Blueprint Challenge. This challenge works if you have a new idea that you want to work through, or a new-ish idea. You can be a little bit into it, and the Blueprint process is still really effective. And it also, of course, works really well if you're revising something, or maybe you're stuck revising something, or overwhelmed by the revision process that you're in.You can start at the beginning of the Blueprint process and go through what I've just described here, and at the end of the challenge, be in a really great place to move forward with your project. We'd love to have you join us. So again, check the show notes for details.We give everyone who joins the Blueprint Challenge a downloadable copy of the Blueprint book and a workbook to work through. But if you're not able to do the challenge at this time and you want to go through this process yourself, you can just grab a copy of my Blueprint book at any bookstore and work through those 14 questions and your outline at the end. However you do it, we're excited to support you on your way.So until next time, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

It's on again!The Blueprint is one of our most popular offerings—Our 10 step plan to help you define the book you want to write before you write 100k words in search of it—but this time we're going in fast and we're knocking this puppy out in just 6 weeks. Starting January 12 and rolling though February, Jennie Nash and I (this is KJ) will lead you through the 14 foundational questions that every writer should ask of themselves and their book, whether you're just getting started, are mid-draft or starting on on the whatever-number revision. We'll have weekly assignments and live events (recorded so no one missed anything). We'll have workbooks and updated access to all the Blueprint resources. There will be chat and solidarity and all the energy that comes from being a part of a community all working together to reach the same goal. Plus, every time we've done a Blueprint, somebody ends up with a book deal (listen here: An #AmWriting Success Story! ). That could be you. I LOVE Blueprint season. As Jennie says in the episode, the Blueprint comes from her realization that over and over again in her book coaching career (which is long and storied) she was seeing people come to her with the same mistakes—300-350 page manuscripts that lacked an inner structure, or an internal point, that meandered, were all plot and no heart or tried to offer instruction without ever conveying why it was so badly needed and what it would change for the reader.Her secret is that she developed the Blueprint for revision (and she recorded a whole episode about that, coming later this week) and then realized that using it from the get-go works, too.Look, I'm the first to tell you that the Blueprint doesn't solve everything. But it helps… a lot. So get ready to Blueprint, whether you're starting a new project or revising the current one (that's where I'll be)—and if you're not already a supporter of the podcast (the only way to access the Blueprint) you should be. Right now it's $100 a year, going up January 1.Oh I am so IN, counting the days.What if you want even MORE? Then you could be one of a very few #AmWriting subscribers who join our first ever Blueprint Sprint cohort. 6 weeks of working together and write-alongs, 5 group-only live sessions, which will be recorded for anyone who can't attend and a members-only community dedicated to helping you create a Blueprint that leads you to the book you want to write, ending with direct feedback from me and from Jennie on your flap copy and 3 page Inside-Outline. We're keeping this small on purpose—we max out at 10 and we might drop that down—so applications to join this group open today and will be evaluated on a first-come, first serve basis. Once we have 10 people, we will close down the application, so get yours in early! Early-bird pricing is $1000 until December 22, after that the price goes up to $1200 (if there are spaces left by then).What are we looking for? 10 writers who are prepared to commit to the process and to the cohort, who do what they set out to do when they set out to do it, who welcome constructive feedback and are willing to do what it takes to build a blueprint for the book they want to create. Writers who know that sometimes you must look a hard truth in the face and cut your losses, that what goes in the scrap heap is rarely resurrected but that the scrap heap is a necessary part of the work. Writers who won't take no for an answer, but can hear “not this” and feel both disappointment and a burning determination that the next effort will be the one that gets there.Also: no a******s.What will you need to apply? We want to hear about your professional and publishing backgrounds, but no publishing experience is necessary. We want to know where you are with this current project, but “still noodling” is a fine answer. The primary requirements are first, a readiness to do the work and second and more ephemerally, our sense of what makes a cohesive cohort.If that sounds like you, here you go—the time to apply is now. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Hi all! In honor of Thanksgiving, we decided to share what we're doing to get MORE of what we're grateful for in our writing lives—as in, try not just to give a nod to gratitude but actually increase the things we do to feel it. Enjoy! Are you staring down a holiday shopping list with a haunted look in your eyes? My great big guide to holiday under-the-radar book-giving perfection can help. Maybe you think not everyone in your life wants a book, but honestly, they are just wrong. I've got a book on my list for the therapy-speak-loving teen who's glued to TikTok, a book for your mom whose book club just forced her to read Emily Henry and just wants a protagonist with a little seasoning. One for your dad, who thinks TV hasn't been the same since The X-Files. And a few for your book-loving bestie, who's read everything already, and all you have to do to get the list to drop right into your phone for your shopping pleasure is join my newsletter, Hashtag AmReading, at kjda.substack.com—link in the show notes and pretty much anywhere where you can find me, which is easy.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTMultiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it's recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don't remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.KJ Dell'AntoniaHey kids, it's KJ, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters.Jess LaheyI'm Jess Lahey. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The New York Times and The Washington Post and The Atlantic.Sarina BowenAnd I'm Sarina Bowen. My newest novel is called Thrown for a Loop, and you can find it at bookstores everywhere.Jennie NashAnd I'm Jennie Nash. I'm the founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, a company on a mission to lead the emerging book coaching industry. And I'm the author of the Blueprint books that help you get your book out of your head and onto your page. And today, the four of us have gathered to talk about gratitude. It's the week of Thanksgiving, and we've been thinking about the things that we're grateful for in our writing life, and how we want to celebrate that and amplify that. So we thought we'd share that all with you today. KJ, do you want to start by talking about what you're grateful for?KJ Dell'AntoniaYeah, I actually managed to give this some thoughts. Since we did, we did talk about it. And I should say we kind of got the idea from Laura Vanderkam's newsletter, which is really great, and you should subscribe. She was just talking about how, you know, it's one thing to be grateful for things like, “Whoo, I'm grateful that I live in such a beautiful place,” but it's another thing to say, “And because I'm grateful that I live in such a beautiful place, this week I will make a point of going for a walk, you know, tonight with my dog, in a place that I love,” or something along that. Her point was: come up with something and then actually do something to amplify that for yourself. So you're not just sitting around, you know, writing a gratitude journal. You're actually trying to do something about it. So having announced that I am totally prepared for this—I'm not really, but I kind of am. Okay. So one of the things that I am grateful for this year, a little weirdly, is AI, and it is not for the reasons anyone might think. I'm primarily grateful—I'm grateful that the spurt of AI in everything that I read, from Goodreads book reviews to things in my inbox to, I'm sorry, actual articles in actual newspapers… it's become so recognizable. The stuff that is written, the pattern, the three examples, the particular words that are invariably used. Oh, somebody threw one out the other night—oh, in the real estate world, if it says something is “nestled between two things,” that's AI. Anyway, that made me realize that the last thing I want is something else to do any of this for me. I just don't. I just, you know, sometimes you sit around going, “Oh, somebody just write this book for me—” you know what? No. No. Because I don't want my book to be nestled between a rock and a hard place or whatever. So, so no. So what I'm doing to sort of bring that home for myself is I'm actually trying to be more present, in particular within the AmWriting—the AmWriting universe. So I've been doing something that I'm calling Hashtag AmWriting ‘Almost' Every Day. It's really nowhere close to every day. Don't worry about getting your inbox full. But I am—you know, that's actually me. If I have time and something to say, or something to whine, or some write-alongs to share, or an idea, then I'm going to put that out there for y'all. And hopefully you're going to comment back, and you probably won't bother to use AI to do that, because that would be really silly. So that's a thing I'm doing, and a thing that I'm grateful that I've suddenly come to the realization of.Jess LaheyWhat's funny, KJ, is that I can absolutely tell when you're really enjoying writing, because it—it just comes through, as it does with most people. But it's been… your newsletters have been really fun, and you're really in it. And I love reading them. I absolutely love reading them.Jennie NashIt gets a little sassy.KJ Dell'AntoniaThanks!Jess LaheyShe does. She does get a little sassy.Jennie NashI love it.Jess LaheyYep, the Shirley Jackson comes out in her, and it's really fun. I like that a lot.Jennie NashJess, do you want to go next?Jess LaheyYeah. Sure. So newsletters have come to mean a lot to me. I have a lot of drafts sitting there, some of which I don't think—I may never publish. But I'm really, really grateful that writing has, for my entire life, been the way that I process what I'm thinking about. I do it a lot by talking, but when I'm alone in the woods, like I am right now in Vermont, writing is how I figure things out, and I'm so grateful for that, because, you know, as I wrote about in my newsletter, I'm dealing with breast cancer, and I'm about to have surgery, and some of that stuff is really, really scary. And how I think about it, and how I manage it, is through writing about it. And I'm just—I've never been so grateful to have, even if it never goes out into the world, a place to write about that stuff. And, and, yeah, I'm so grateful for the words. Absolutely.Jennie NashThat's so beautiful, that in the scariest, most difficult time, it's the most natural thing that you turn to.Jess LaheyYeah, I think there are some people who pour themselves out in watercolors, or some people—whatever. The words, man, they're the best.Jennie NashVery cool. Sarina, what about you?Sarina BowenYeah, well, as always, my gratitude runs toward the granular and the practical. I guess I can't ever get away from that. So I am grateful to deadlines. Last month, I had a really difficult deadline. I had to scramble and set everything else aside and keep myself from panicking. And I did it. I actually—I turned it in, and then I immediately went on a book tour for a different book. So that was a difficult experience and a difficult month, and I'm not used to quite so much deadline pressure. But the wonderful thing is, is that I have these deadlines because of the work that I have placed with publishers, and I wouldn't want to change a single thing about that. So even if I need to get a little better about my timing, I recognize that—even in the darkest day—that it's a gift to have this problem. And then I'm also grateful for coffee shops, because that has been a place for me to work this year. And I never did this before. I was one of those people who had to be at home, in a room all by myself, in the quiet, writing. And suddenly that became really difficult for me. The quiet was too much quiet. There was too much doom scroll, there was too much self-reflection. And it really started the day after the election, actually. Like, I sort of ordered KJ to meet me out at a coffee shop because I needed to be where other people were. And it was really grounding—like, there we were, and the barista is a familiar face, and everything was fine inside that shop, you know, which was, in itself, a little bubble of privilege. But, but just being out in the world, seeing the rest of the world keep chugging, has really focused me. And I've spent a lot of time in a lot of different coffee shop and library settings in the intervening couple of months—and, well, almost a year now—and it's felt fantastic. So I am excited that there are places where I'm allowed to go pay way too much for a cup of coffee and then sit there for two hours, and I will continue to do it.Jess LaheyCan I add a layer to the Sarina—to the Sarina stuff? Because I got to go to, as some of the other people talking today did, got to go to one of Sarina's events. And, you know, we love Sarina, and we just rave about Sarina, and I think she's a genius, and I think her writing is wonderful. But I was in a room of people who knew her work. Like, at one point, someone asked about whether or not she was going to be writing more in, like, The Company Series, which is one of the series she started to write. And there are a couple books—in that one. And then when she's like, “Oh, I don't—I think the time for that is over,” and people were like, “Awww,” and they were sad, and they knew characters really well. There was a die-hard fan of one of her books—I think it was Stay. And I just—I'm so grateful to be able to go to those events and see that other people love Sarina as much and respect Sarina's work as much as I do. And my whole family was there. So my kid, who's been hearing about, you know, my friend who wrote—writes “kiss me” books, he was like, “Man, people are into her books.” And I'm like, “Yeah, I told you. I've been trying to tell you.” And it was great. It was really fun to see people that into it.Sarina BowenWell, the thing is that romance readers really are special. I'm not saying there aren't—there aren't fandoms in other genres as well. But it's something about a romance novel involves characters that aren't afraid to say how they feel, and that is how romance readers are about the books. They are not afraid to say what they feel, and they are there for all the feelings in the first place. And it is really a great spot to be. So for every writer who ever looked down at the romance section of the bookstore, I got news for you. It's really nice over there.Jess LaheyIt's great. The people were so great.Jennie NashAnd we have gratitude for the romance—the romance readers too.Jess LaheyYeah.Jennie NashI love all of your—your gratitude's. Mine is—I guess I would say that I am grateful for having the identity of a writer as a thing that I take with me wherever I go. And what I mean by that is I have been traveling to see family, and there were airplane troubles, lots of different airplane troubles, actually, on this particular trip, and lots of delays, overnight delays, sitting in airports for long periods of time, all of that, and I am never sad about those things. I'm almost never at a total loss. Like, you tell me that I have to spend six hours at the San Francisco airport, and I'm fine, because I can fill the time—not just, not just fill it like, “Oh, I can get through this,” but I can actually have really productive, useful, awesome time for six hours in the San Francisco airport. And if I have to spend a night at a terrible airport hotel, and, you know, just all the things—and I was so grateful when I thought about it in that way, that here's a thing that I can take with me wherever I go, that all I need is something to write on. Could be my phone. It could be a piece of airport hotel notepad and paper. It could even be a torn-out page of a magazine that I bought at the airport. And I—I can be somebody. I can be somebody doing something that I find interesting and good and useful. And I just am so grateful for that. What an amazing thing to be. And obviously holiday travel is a special kind of thing, but just the thought that—that that comes with me, no matter where I go or what I do or what happens in my life—I have that, and I'm very grateful for that. So I don't know, KJ, in terms of how am I going to bring that forward or exercise it or do it? I guess—I guess I've got to hope for smoother travels.KJ Dell'AntoniaYou should just get stuck in more airports, but you don't want to get stuck in more airports? I feel like that should be your goal now.Jennie NashI guess if you take it to a very granular, practical level, like Sarina does—always have a notebook with you, man. That's what I got to say, and a working writing implement. It saves the day.Jess LaheyAnd then you text the word “sticker” to the rest of us, and we know, “Oh, man, those travel stickers—those are worth double stickers.” We always say that travel stickers are double stickers.Jennie NashIt's so true. It's so true. Well, we just wanted to pop in here today to share this gratitude episode with you all and to give you some things to think about, about your writing life and your writing practice. And we hope that everyone is having a day filled with gratitude. KJ, do you want to say other things?KJ Dell'AntoniaI wanted to say that I think we're all grateful for the way this community is slowly but steadily growing. I've been doing Write-Alongs with a bunch of people lately. We've been seeing people in the actual Substack chat, which, if you…Jess LaheyThe chat is fun.KJ Dell'AntoniaUse Substack chat, that's great. And you know—you know what it is, and if you don't, that's fine. You can totally hit the same results by talking to us in the comments, which is the same as comments on anything. I just—I just really like sort of seeing the same people and faces pop up over and over again, and feeling the same kind of “less alone” about this that I used to feel back in the early days of blogging. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have pretty much, you know—I'll put a thing on Instagram, and then I'm out of there because, again, it's—there's, there's so much slop now. I'm not really doing a lot of other things. But I am here, and there are other people here, and I think that's so fun.Jennie NashIt's really fun. And we will continue to be here with—with lots of offerings, from Nerd Corner episodes to Write Big episodes to KJ Writing Along episodes, and we're in the chat to help and answer questions, and we have other things up our sleeves too. So keep tuning in.KJ Dell'AntoniaYeah. All right.Jess LaheyAll right, everyone until next time around, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this #amwriting podcast episode, Jennie Nash talks about what it means to “play big” on the page. Using Ian McEwan's choice to write his latest novel without research as an example, she shows how true impact comes when a writer fully owns their story and brings it to life with depth and intention. She encourages listeners to think about their own top five most powerful reads, notice what made those books unforgettable, and aim to create that same sense of bigness in their own writingTranscript Below!#AmWriting: A Groupstack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, it's Jess Lahey. If you've been listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast for any length of time, you know that yes, I am a writer—but my true love, my deepest love, is combining writing with speaking. I get to go into schools, community organizations, nonprofits, and businesses, and do everything from lunch-and-learns to community reads to just teaching about the topics that I'm an expert in—from the topics in The Gift of Failure: engagement, learning, learning in the brain, cognitive development, getting kids motivated—and, yes, the topic of overparenting and what that does to kids' learning. Two topics around The Addiction Inoculation are substance use prevention in kids, and—what I've been doing lately that's the most fun for me, frankly—is combining the two. It makes the topic of substance use prevention more approachable, less scary, when we're talking about it in the context of learning, motivation, self-efficacy, competence, and—yes—cognitive development. So if you have any interest in bringing me into your school, your nonprofit, your business—I would love to come. You can go to JessicaLahey.com. Look under the menu option “Speaking,” and go down to “Speaking Inquiry.” There's also a lot of information on my website about what I do—there are videos there about how I do it. Please feel free to get in touch, and I hope I get to come to your community. If you put in the speaking inquiry that you are a Hashtag AmWriting listener, we can talk about a discount—so that can be one of the bonuses for being a loyal and long-term listener to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast.Hope to hear from you.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTHi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a Write Big session, where I'm bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters.Today we're talking about how writing big shows up on the page—how you know when somebody else has done it, when a writer has really wrestled with their material, when they've really thought about what matters about it and why it matters, and how they want their readers to feel. They've done all the work of making the choices that deliver an experience to their reader. You can feel it—and you want it.Just before Ian McEwan's new novel came out—which is called What We Can Know—I read an interview with him in The Wall Street Journal, and the interviewer, whose name is Jon Mooallem, asked McEwan this: “You seem to savor research for your books. To write about a brain surgeon, in Saturday, you observed brain surgeries. Here you're writing about a future that's so plausible-seeming and specific but diverges dramatically from all the well-worn dystopian tropes. How do you go about researching the future?” And McEwan answers, “I didn't do any research for this novel.” The interviewer says, “Amazing—none?” And McEwan says, “I could have written it from a prison cell. I mean, there are factoids I looked up on the internet in 30 seconds, but as I approach 80, I'd rather revel in taking a walk through my own mind.”I don't normally read dystopian fiction, but when I heard that answer, I went and pre-ordered the book. I've read some of McEwan's other books and have adored them—especially Atonement. So he's on my radar as a writer that I like to read, and a writer that is worth my time. But I pass up a lot of books by writers whose previous work I've liked, so it's not a foregone conclusion that I would have read this one. But that idea—that he did no research for a sci-fi dystopian novel—and those words about how “I'd rather revel in taking a walk through my own mind”—that tells me that this is a book in which he's playing big, and that's a book that I want to read.It's not that there's anything wrong with research, obviously. People who are writing nonfiction are going to need to do a lot of research, and people writing historical fiction or maybe memoir, and people writing sci-fi or fantasy who are making up worlds that have new technologies or thinking about future systems of government or transportation or food delivery or any of that, are going to need to do research. It's not that I'm knocking that. What I heard, though, was this idea of a writer who was just owning this story—who had it alive in their head and was bringing it to life on the page. And that's what I always am looking for, and I suspect it's what you're looking for, too.If I were to ask you to reel off your all-time top favorite five books, I bet you would be able to. These books live in our minds because of the experience that they delivered to us. And sometimes it's because they came at the exact right moment in our lives. A lot of people will reference a book like Charlotte's Web, which maybe was one of the first books that they ever read—or one of the first times they understood what death is about. Or people will talk about Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret, because they felt, for the first time, that this author was really speaking to them and got into their heads and their hearts. So there's a huge part of this about where we are in our lives when we encounter a particular book and why it might hit us in that particular way. But if you really think about that list of five books, you're going to understand that there's something about those books where the author was playing big. They own their story in a very specific way.One of the books that would be on my top-five list would have to be the book Desert Solitaire by Edward Abbey. This is a memoir that I read when I was a teenager. I think I pulled it off of the shelf of my dad's study. It's a story of this guy who spends a season in the wilderness. He is a ranger at Arches National Park, which is one of those beautiful parks out in the middle of the desert. It's a red-rock landscape, and there are arches out there made out of that rock. It's a very harsh environment, and he is out there greeting the people who dared to come visit this space. And the reason that book is on my list is that I read it more than forty-five years ago, and I can still remember exactly what it felt like to open that book and start reading. Edward Abbey writes in a very specific and unique and intense voice, and he has very big and controversial thoughts about comfort and wilderness and what people seek when they go out there. But for me, the reason that book stays on my top all-time list is because that was the book that helped me finally understand my father. And my father was a professor of environmental studies. He spent a lot of time out in the wilderness, in places that were harsh and uncomfortable, and he had a lot of very strong opinions, like Abbey. And he was a hard man to understand because of some of these things. And as a kid growing up and, you know, becoming a teenager, I didn't understand him, and it was a struggle to understand him. And when I read this book, it was as if somebody handed me a whole new understanding. And I just thought, Oh, this is it. I get it. I get him now. And I can call up that feeling all these years later—of how amazing it was to have somebody see me and see my dad in a way that I hadn't been able to see. So when I think about that experience, and I think about what it was like to be immersed in that book…To me, that is a memory of somebody who played big. I think it was one of the first times I encountered—certainly in an adult book—somebody who was writing big. That book just had a bigness about it, a sense that the author was holding nothing back.And what I mean about holding nothing back—I don't mean that all good writing is just dumping your most private or vulnerable thoughts on the page, or forcing that kind of revelatory work on somebody. That's not what I mean. I mean that there's a sense of depth to it, a feeling of authority—of that author having come as close as you can get to bringing their vision to life. That's what makes a reading experience unforgettable. And it's worth noting here that we live in the time of AI, and AI can do a lot for a story. It can analyze your structure. It can flag plot holes. It can suggest fixes. There's a whole lot that you can use it for if you so choose. People can decide whether they want to use these tools in their work or not.But the thing is that, no matter if you're using those tools, AI can never touch this thing that we're talking about. It can never do the work of the heart—of deciding why a story matters, or why a book matters, or why you're willing to risk writing it or going all in on it. It can never connect with the reader who's going to encounter that work on the other side, because it's a machine.And this human work of connecting is what playing big is really about.Playing small is skating across the surface of an idea. It's polishing words while avoiding the deep meaning. It's leaning on formulas or tropes or trends or tools to do the heavy lifting of intention. The result may be polished, it may be clean, it may be publishable—it may even do well in the marketplace—but it lacks that sense of aliveness that only you can bring, that sense that this work mattered to the writer. So what I'd like you to do today is think about the top five books that you have read in your life and that you remember and that hit you with a strong power. And it might be fun to think about what you felt when you read them and why they impacted you in that way. But what I really want you to do is to pin down the reason why that book has a sense of bigness to it. What did the writer do to make you feel what you felt? And I don't mean tactically—we're looking for something ineffable here, some sense about why that writer was playing big. And then you might write down the way you want your reader to feel when they finish your book, and ask yourself: what do I need to put on the page to make that happen?Until next time—stop playing small and write like it matters.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, Jennie digs into the sneaky ways writers “play small”—circling endlessly around an idea, polishing the same chapters, getting lost in research, or waiting for perfect timing instead of taking real action. With stories from her years as a book coach, including one writer who finally broke free from years of fear and went on to become a full-time author, Jennie shows how smallness hides behind busyness and perfectionism. She challenges you to spot where you're holding back and take the courageous step toward playing big.Transcript Below!#AmWriting: A Groupstack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, this is Jennie Nash, and I wanted to invite you to check out my Substack newsletter, The Art & Business of Book Coaching. It's totally free unless you choose to support me, and it's secretly really great for writers. The reason is that book coaches are in the business of helping writers do their best work. So I'm always talking about writer mindset and things like helping a writer find their structure or find an agent or find their position in the marketplace. If you're considering investing in having somebody help you, it's a great way to get prepared to know who you might want to pick and what you might want to ask of them. You'll get an inside peek at the way that the people who are in the business of helping writers think about writers, and so in that way, it can help you become a better writer just by tuning in. I have a lot of writers following me over there, so if you're interested, come check it out you can find it at substack.com/@JennieNash. That's substack.com/@JennieNash, and it's J-E-N-N-I-E.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTHi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a Write Big Session, where I'm bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters.Today, we're talking about playing small—and what exactly it is—because playing small is sneaky. Writers are not going around saying, “I want to hold myself back,” or, “I'm giving in to my fear,” or, “I'm making decisions to protect myself.” Instead, they tell themselves that they're being realistic.Maybe they think that they need more training, or they need to take more courses, or they need to take more time. But as a book coach, I see the same patterns over and over again in writers playing small — and this is what it looks like.It's this person, who I don't see very often, but whenever I do see them—maybe once or twice a year—they always tell me that they're circling around the idea of writing a book. It's the same book that they've been circling around all these years, and they feel compelled to tell me that they're still thinking about it—they're still just about to do that someday, when they have time.The smallness comes in never even starting.I also think of the writer who polishes the same three chapters over and over again until they just shine brightly and there's not one single, solitary thing wrong with them. But that writer never moves forward with their draft. They never actually get to the point where they're going to finish, and then have to decide how to revise that book, or whether to take it out into the world, or even show it to anyone. They just noodle around with those same chapters in this endless loop of procrastination.So again, it's not taking action.You also see this with nonfiction writers, or memoir writers, or sci-fi writers—where they focus incredibly deeply on their world-building or their research, and they have copious notes and spreadsheets and all kinds of information that they're gathering so that, when they're ready to write, they'll have all this info—but they never actually get ready to write. They just stay stuck in the loop of research.Perhaps the most poignant story I have of a writer playing small comes from a conference that I went to many years ago. I met this writer who had been going to the same conference for about five years, and she was getting ready to pitch. She actually had come to me in a kind of speed-dating situation, where you worked with an expert to get your pitch ready before you went in to the agents to pitch, and I thought her pitch was really good. I thought her material was really good, and we worked on tweaking it a little bit.And then I said, you know, had she ever pitched before? Was this her first time? And she said, “No, I've been coming to this conference all these years, and I've been pitching every year.”And I said, “Well, what happened all those years?” And she said that each one of those years, she had agents request to send in her manuscript. She had this collection of agents who were waiting for her manuscript, and she had never sent it to them because she didn't think that it was ready.She kept coming to the conference, kept going to these pitches, kept getting requests, and never sending the manuscript in. She thought that she would continue to work on it—to make it as good as it could be—before she took that leap and sent those pitches in.And surely my mouth hung open in shock, because this just seemed so sad to me—and a perfect example of playing small. And so, instead of working on her pitch, I used my time with her to work on her mindset and to help her try to find and tap into that bravery to, this year, actually do it—to actually send the work in. And maybe go back to those agents from years past and send it to them as well. Sometimes there's a period of time when the agents will still welcome those pitches—or not.But the point was, it was time for her to get out there and pitch, without a doubt. And after that conference, she did, in fact, get more requests to submit—and she did submit—and now, all these years later, she's a very successful writer. She's actually working on her third series. She is a full-time writer. She's made the leap to be that, which is a thing so many people want to be.It was just one moment of fear that she had to get over. And I said in the last episode that playing big rarely happens in one moment — but sometimes it does. Sometimes it's literally just hitting the send key and saying, “Okay, I'm doing this. I'm putting it out there.” And that's what this writer needed to do to make that shift from playing small to playing big.It's very easy to just stay busy with our writing—to stay productive—and to never do the work that's actually going to get us the thing we want. Playing small often looks like busyness or it looks like waiting for permission—waiting for more time, for perfect pages, for someone else to open the door and welcome us in.But this is just another form of hiding. Playing small means not stepping forward. It means not sending that pitch, not finishing the draft, not carving out the time to do the work, and constantly coming up with reasons why it's not happening.So the reflection I want to leave you with today is to think about where you know you're playing small—and where you know you need to shine the light of courage and bravery in order to make that shift and play big.The place where you're playing small is probably glaringly obvious to you, so you probably know. And I would encourage you to write it down so you can look at it—maybe share it. Everything is better when it's shared and brought into the light.And once you do that, you can take action toward making the shift and playing big. Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Write Big series, Jennie unpacks what it really means to “write big”—not chasing bestseller lists or movie deals, but making the bold internal shifts that bring your truest work to the page. Through stories of writers daring to name their ambition, rebuild drafts, honor personal truths, and even reimagine entire projects, Jennie shows how writing big looks different for everyone but always comes down to honesty, courage, and clarity.Transcript Below!#AmWriting: A Groupstack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, this is Jennie Nash, and I wanted to invite you to check out my Substack newsletter, The Art & Business of Book Coaching. It's totally free unless you choose to support me, and it's secretly really great for writers. The reason is that book coaches are in the business of helping writers do their best work. So I'm always talking about writer mindset and things like helping a writer find their structure or find an agent or find their position in the marketplace. If you're considering investing in having somebody help you, it's a great way to get prepared to know who you might want to pick and what you might want to ask of them. You'll get an inside peek at the way that the people who are in the business of helping writers think about writers, and so in that way, it can help you become a better writer just by tuning in. I have a lot of writers following me over there, so if you're interested, come check it out you can find it at substack.com/@JennieNash. That's substack.com/@JennieNash, and it's J-E-N-N-I-E.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTHi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a Write Big Session—a short episode about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters. Today we're talking about what Write Big really means. A lot of writers think that writing big means chasing splashy goals like bestseller lists or big advances or movie deals, and sometimes it looks like that, but more often writing big is a subtle internal shift. It's daring to face what isn't working, listening to hard feedback, writing the thing you really want to write, and letting yourself own what you're dreaming about.I think the best way to explain it is to tell a few stories.So in the last episode, I mentioned my client, Dr. Diana Hill. When I met Diana, she had a full draft of the book that she was writing, and it was her third book. She was about two months away from turning it in to her publisher. She asked if I would take a look at the manuscript to see if there was anything that I might be able to suggest to make the book better.We were new friends, and I thought it would be a kind thing to do, and so I said yes, but as soon as I started reading the manuscript, I thought, uh oh. It was good—it was fine—but there was nothing special about the pages. Diana had done the thing that a lot of academics do, which is point to all the other thinkers who had gone before them and written things or studied things. It was all just a little flat, but I could tell that the ideas in it were really big. And so I went back to Diana, and I said, “What's your goal for this book? Where do you want it to sit on the shelf?” And what I mean by that question is: what other books are near it, what other books are like it, what other books are your ideal reader reading?And usually, when I ask people this, they talk about actual shelves in the bookstore and books that are on those shelves. But what Diana said was something I'd never heard anybody say before. She said, “I don't want my book to be on the shelf. I want it to be on the front table.” That was her version of playing big—naming her ambition out loud and allowing it to shape her choices. Because when she told me that, I was then able to say, “I don't think what you've written is going to be that book.” And then I said, “How much are you willing to risk to make it so?”She looked at me sort of horrified, because she was really close to actually being done with this book, and she said, “I'll do anything that it takes.” And so we set about working together over those two months to basically rip the entire thing down to the studs—if we're talking about house-building imagery. I have rarely seen somebody work as hard over such a long sustained period of time as Diana did to rebuild that book. She did anything that I suggested if she thought it was right, and she worked night and day to build it back up. I'm recording this the week before her book comes out, and so we have no idea how the book is going to be received in the marketplace. But what we do know is this: she played big. She gave that book everything that she had. She was willing to ask for help. She was willing to sacrifice time with her family and even time at her job. She's a therapist, and she took a week off from seeing clients in order to go on a retreat and get this writing done. She also risked her ego, because she really put out there what she wanted. She wanted this book to be a big deal, and all of that is playing big.But playing big does not have to be tied to ambition.I once worked with an ad executive who came into a course that I was teaching at UCLA, and he wanted to write a memoir. He'd spent his whole career writing ad copy—short, little, catchy lines—and he was a really good wordsmith, but he was terrified of writing anything longer than about a paragraph.But he had this story that he was burning to tell, and the story had to do with a road trip that he took when he was 16 years old. At the time that he came into my class, he was retired and had gray hair, and he was thinking about this trip that had taken place way back in the day when America was really a different kind of country, and cars were new, and the roads that opened the country were new, and this idea that you could hit the road and go anywhere you wanted was new.And so he had this romantic image of what that trip was. But the trip had also haunted him for 50 years, because he took it with his buddy, another friend from Ohio, who he was going to school with. After that trip was over and they returned back home from California, that friend took his own life, and this ad executive had never stopped thinking about it, and never stopped thinking about his friend, and this vibrant time they had, and this aliveness that they felt, and this freedom that they enjoyed, and he wanted to capture that story for his 50th high school reunion.He didn't have any intention of publishing it wider than that. He was going to print maybe 100 copies and take them to the reunion and hand them out to people, because the people in that room at that reunion were the only people who would have cared as much as he did about that friend and about that time. This was the audience that he wanted to please, but he really wanted to do this idea justice. He did not want to just write something down or write something that didn't have depth, or, you know, have a sort of travel log of the places they went and the adventures that they had. He wanted to write something that was deeply meaningful to him and to that friend's memory and to that audience.And working with him, I was struck that this was playing big too—just knowing what he wanted and being willing to do whatever it took to get it right. It was very hard for him to write that book, because, like I said, he was really good at writing little bits of words but not so good at writing whole scenes and chapters. He really had to teach himself how to do that and teach himself about narrative design and holding tension, and, as with any memoir, centering the reader and not just himself.Plus, he was digging up memories and wanting to get things right and wanting to get the spirit of the thing right. He worked so hard, and publishing that book and taking it to that reunion was a triumph for him. It was absolutely playing big.And then just a few weeks ago, I had an experience of a writer playing big. This is a friend of mine, Lisa B., and she had spent about three years noodling around with a nonfiction book, a biography that just wasn't working. She is a journalist, and she adheres very closely to the truth—that matters a lot to her—and she was intrigued by this story, but she couldn't get it to work, and it was really starting to grind at her. So she sat down with a brain trust of people, and I was part of that brain trust, and she asked us for some real feedback.It wasn't about the pages. We actually didn't read any pages or notes or anything that she had written. It was about her story and what it was going to be, and if maybe it was time to let it go. So she was arguing for what she loved about the story and explaining about what wasn't working, and she was listening to our critiques and our curiosity and our prodding and really trying to understand what to do with this story that wasn't working. Should she try to somehow make it work? Was there another wrinkle that she hadn't seen to bring this whole thing to life? Or should she let it go?And we had this very rich and deep conversation, and then that night she had a sudden realization. She said it was kind of like a lightning-bolt strike, and she realized that the story was actually not about the person she thought it was about. It was about a minor character. And if she shifted the spotlight onto this other character, the whole book would work in the way that she envisioned it working, and it would mean writing it as a novel, which, for her, was something she had really fought against doing. It went against her adherence to the truth, and so she had to embrace this really big, scary thing in order to do this story justice.But what was so cool in listening to her talk about this revelation was that she was practically vibrating with excitement as she described what this book was going to be. She knew she had it. She was just owning it. And that's what playing big feels like. It's this act of courage and clarity and passion and possibility, and you could just feel it in her. Playing big here has nothing to do with what happens to that book in the world. She's just at the beginning. We don't know what's going to happen to that book in the world, but we know that she is writing big.So writing big is about honesty with your own self. It's choosing to tell the truth about your ambition and your story and your vision. And sometimes that looks like wanting your book to be on the front table of the bookstore. Other times it looks like wanting to write for 100 people and really get that story right. And sometimes it looks like tearing apart a draft and reimagining the whole thing.There's just a thousand different ways that it looks like to write big, and you have to find it for your own self.What matters is that you're willing to stop hiding and let the work be as powerful as it can be.So I would ask you to think about your own current project, and if there's anything about it that you're tamping down—your ambition or your vision for it or what you want it to be, maybe how much you want this work to work, or maybe about what you're avoiding.And if there's something that you find that you need to change, write a bold statement about what that change needs to be and put it up where you can see it every day or share it with someone you trust.Writing big doesn't happen all at one time. It's often a subtle shift that unfolds over time. So having either a reminder of what that shift is or an accountability partner to help you remember is a really great way of making sure that you write big.Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled, Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Jennie kicks off the new Write Big series with a conversation about what it really means to stop playing small in your writing life. If you've ever felt the tug to bring more of yourself to the page—or wondered why your words aren't landing the way you want—this episode will spark reflection and give you permission to choose courage, clarity, and creativity in your work.Transcript Below!#AmWriting: A Groupstack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, this is Jennie Nash, and I wanted to invite you to check out my Substack newsletter, The Art & Business of Book Coaching. It's totally free unless you choose to support me, and it's secretly really great for writers. The reason is that book coaches are in the business of helping writers do their best work. So I'm always talking about writer mindset and things like helping a writer find their structure or find an agent or find their position in the marketplace. If you're considering investing in having somebody help you, it's a great way to get prepared to know who you might want to pick and what you might want to ask of them. You'll get an inside peek at the way that the people who are in the business of helping writers think about writers, and so in that way, it can help you become a better writer just by tuning in. I have a lot of writers following me over there, so if you're interested, come check it out you can find it at substack.com/@JennieNash. That's substack.com/@JennieNash, and it's J-E-N-N-I-E.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTHi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, and today, we're starting something new. It's a special series here on Hashtag AmWriting where we explore what happens when writers hold back, play it safe, or hide in the shadows—and what changes when they step into their full creative power. I'm calling these the Write Big Sessions.I'll be sharing solo reflections, interviewing different writers and industry professionals about the ways they play big, talking with KJ about these ideas, and offering the chance for you to reflect at key times of the year, all circling around one big question: How are you playing small in your writing life? And here's the good news: you don't have to keep doing that. You can choose to Write Big, with courage, clarity, and the power to bring your whole self to the page.Today I'm talking about why I'm obsessed with the whole concept of writing big, and why I've committed my whole career to helping writers do it.In April, I went on a wellness retreat in Costa Rica, which was being run by Dr. Diana Hill, one of my book coaching clients, and the author of the book Wise Effort. When we arrived, there were the usual introductions—where are you from? What do you do? What brought you here? One woman heard about my work with Diana and said, “Oh, that's so crazy. I'm dying to write a book. I'd love to talk to you.”I smiled and said something polite, because this is something I hear all the time. I'm a book coach, and whenever anybody hears about what I do, they always say that either they or their sister or cousin or brother or neighbor or somebody is dying to write a book. They say that 82% of American adults want to write a book. And from my experience out in the world, I don't doubt it.In the middle of the week, Diana guided us through a visualization exercise designed to help us reconnect with our values and desires, and it was intense. We had to write for 15 minutes about what we would do if we only had a year left to live. We then had to write about what we would do if we only had a month left to live, and then a week, and then a minute.After we did the writing exercises, we partnered up with whoever was sitting next to us to share what we had discovered, and my partner happened to be the woman who wanted to write the book. I shared with her that if I had a year left to live, I would absolutely be writing a book to try to capture everything that I've learned throughout my career. I'm just wired to teach and to inspire others, and it's what I would do.If I only had a month left to live, I'd still have that on my list. I imagined a burst of creative energy at the end of my life to propel me through this creativity, and of course leave me time to be with my husband and my two kids. We would probably watch silly movies and play games and fight about it, and we would probably take walks, and I would tell them how much I've loved loving them.When I got down to one week left to live, and then one minute, writing reluctantly dropped off my list because I had to face the limits of time and my priorities of being with my family. But what was interesting is that the woman who literally told me she was dying to write a book did not include writing on any of her lists.And to be honest, this didn't surprise me. So many people say they want to write a book, but they don't want it to cost them anything. They don't want to give up anything in order to do it. They're not ready to Write Big.But I find that the writers who are ready to Write Big—the ones who are yearning to connect with their deepest creative desires and write something they love that their readers might love—those people are motivated to do whatever it takes, if only they knew what those things were.These writers are already probably spending time, effort, energy, and money writing their morning pages, clocking 1000 words a day, maybe turning out shitty first drafts and maybe even publishing. They're doing work, but the books they're writing are falling flat, failing to make an impact, and leaving them frustrated and desperate to figure out what's missing in their creative life. They can't quite figure out why they're not writing something that feels as amazing to them as the writing that they love feels when they read it.Compounding this frustration is the glut of craft resources, productivity tips, and marketing strategies coming at us every day. It's easy to get lulled into the belief that knowing how to write and publish is all it takes to fulfill your creative dreams. But I know better.In my work at Author Accelerator, where I train and certify people to be book coaches, mostly what we're doing is helping people figure out how to help writers to Write Big. At the end of the day, what an excellent book coach does is help a writer step into their full creative power.And I want to be clear about what I mean by writing big. It's not about hitting bestseller lists or being loud on the internet. It's bringing your whole self to the page, choosing courage over comfort, and daring to be seen. It's the difference between spending time on your writing—and committing your whole self to it.The ironic thing is that when writers decide to play big, the rewards of the marketplace often follow, because readers can tell when you're playing small, holding back, dialing it in, or not really connecting with yourself or them.I sometimes think there are bigger problems in the world than helping writers make a shift in their relationship to their work. But then I'm reminded of what happens when writers bring their whole selves to the page. Hearts and minds get changed, people feel less alone, the world becomes more connected.So what I'll be talking about in these Write Big Sessions is BIG! I'll be keeping the episodes short on purpose, and I'll usually end with a reflection or action step. I'm a book coach, after all—it's what I do.For today, I would just ask you to think about what the concept of writing big has brought up for you, just hearing about it. What feelings or thoughts arise?Until next time, stop playing small, and write like it matters.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled, Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

“The stories aren't about violence—they're about the preciousness of life. Each one is a reminder that this could happen to anyone.” — Jude Berman Jude Berman grew up surrounded by books and cultural diversity, thanks to her refugee parents. After a career in academic research and running independent presses, she turned her attention to her own writing. In this episode of Uncorking a Story, Jude rejoins me to discuss her latest work, Shot: A Dictionary of the Lost, a collection of 26 short stories exploring the human toll of gun violence. Together, we explore her unique publishing journey, the role of age and experience in writing, and the power of fiction to build empathy and spark conversation.   Key Themes Writing vs. Publishing Journeys: Jude explains the difference between building a life as a writer and actually getting published. Many of her books began in a drawer before finally seeing the light of day. Age as a Strength: Jude emphasizes that writers often improve with age, bringing lived experience, wisdom, and deeper perspective to their work. Breaking the Catch-22: The publishing industry favors young, “malleable” voices, but often at the expense of stronger writing that emerges later in life. The Making of Shot: The 26 stories, one for each letter of the alphabet, “came through” her almost like a download, highlighting the role of intuition and channeling in the creative process. On Gun Violence: While tackling a heavy topic, Jude frames her stories as celebrations of life, not gratuitous violence. Her goal: to remind readers that gun violence can touch anyone, anywhere. The Empathy Factor: Fiction can serve as a powerful tool for building empathy, allowing readers to experience perspectives without having to live them firsthand. The Twist Ending: Without spoilers, Jude shares that the final story in Shot points toward hope and change, setting it apart from the rest of the collection.  Buy Shot: A Dictionary of the Lost Amazon: https://amzn.to/4mhLS28 Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/54587/9781647429287 Connect with Jude Website: https://judeberman.com/ Substack: https://judeberman.substack.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/judebermanauthor Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jude.berman/ BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/judeberman.bsky.social LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/judeberman Threads: https://www.threads.net/@jude.berman TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@judeberman YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@judeberman-author Connect with Mike Website: https://uncorkingastory.com/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSvS4fuG3L1JMZeOyHvfk_g Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/uncorkingastory/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@uncorkingastory Twitter: https://twitter.com/uncorkingastory Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/uncorkingastory LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/uncorking-a-story/ If you like this episode, please share it with a friend. If you have not done so already, please rate and review Uncorking a Story on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. #WritingCommunity, #AmWriting, #AuthorLife, #WritersOfInstagram, #Storytelling, #BookLovers, #ReadersOfInstagram, #Bookstagram, #IndieAuthor#NewRelease #GunViolenceAwareness, #EmpathyThroughFiction, #LifeExperienceMatters, #WritingAtAnyAge, #VoicesThatMatter. #PodcastInterview, #AuthorInterview, #ListenAndLearn, #PodcastersOfInstagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jess, Sarina, Jennie and Jess are all here to talk about taking a break from various angles: the mechanics angle, the guilt angle, the fear angle, the identity angle and inspiration angle. Mechanics. * Leave yourself notes about the project when you leave off, for example, “The next thing that needs to happen is this…” so when you come back, you know how to get back into the project. This is Sarina's daily practice, but it really helps when she has to leave a project behind. This can be especially helpful when you have to go away for an unexpected emergency. * Jennie adds that the only way you can do this is if you have a place to keep and find those notes to yourself. In one of your 47 notebooks or in the document itself? Or, as Jess adds, on the side of the cardboard box you use for trash in your basement workshop that you almost recycle by accident. * Jennie also notes that you have to have intentionality, to know what you are writing so you can know what comes next, whether that's in your outline, inside outline, or whatever. * Jennie has a little notebook she brings on vacation with her and she downloads those ideas into that just before going to sleep at night when she's away. * These vacation inspiration moments are much like shower thoughts, part of the magic of our brain unhooking, getting into deep default mode network, and becoming its most creative. * Sarina mentioned an article about how walking makes you more creative, also a study in why tapping into the default mode network is so effective as a practice. Fear * The only way to get over this is to sit down and do it. Open the document. Just start. * Jennie points out that getting back into a manuscript when it's disappeared feels horrifying but it's much easier than it sounds and has happened to one of our frequent guests, Sarah Stewart Taylor, when her then-toddler created a password for the document that was not recoverable. She had to give in to the fact that her book was gone, and recreate it out of her memory. Guilt and Identity* It only took Jess until her fiftieth year to figure out that her process - of walking, gardening, beekeeping, musing - is a part of writing, and that's cool. * Can you be a writer if you are not actively writing? Yes, if research, planning, thinking and otherwise cogitating is a part of your writing process. Get over it. The words have to land on the page eventually, of course, but if you are doing both, have grace for the not-actively-writing part of the writing process. #AmReadingTess Gerritsen's series set in Maine (The Spy Coast and The Summer Guests) and, once she finished those two books, Jess went back to The Surgeon, where it all started for Tess Gerritsen. Stay tuned for our interview with her! Andy Weir's Project Hail Mary (Don't watch the movie trailer if you plan to read the book!)Sarah Harman's All the Other Mothers Hate MeAmy Tintera's Listen for the LieRosemerry Wahtola Trommer The UnfoldingRichard Osman's The Thursday Murder Club (coming to Netflix in August!)Janelle Brown's What Kind of Paradise Want to submit a first page to Booklab? Fill out the form HERE.Writers and readers, KJ here, if you love #AmWriting and I know you do, and I know you do, and especially if you love the regular segment at the end of most episodes where we talk about what we've been reading, you will also love my weekly #AmReading email. Is it about what I've been reading and loving? It is. And if you like what I write, you'll like what I read. But it is also about everything else. I've been #AmDoing: sleeping, buying clothes and returning them, launching a spelling bee habit, reading other people's weekly emails. Let's just say it's kind of the email about not getting the work done, which I mean that's important too, right? We can't work all the time. It's also free, and I think you'll really like it. So you can find it at kjdellantonia.com or kjda.substack.com or by clicking on my name on Substack, if you do that kind of thing.Come hang out with me. You won't be sorry.Transcript below!EPISODE 458 - TRANSCRIPTKJ Dell'AntoniaWriters and readers, KJ here. If you love Hashtag AmWriting, and I know you do, and especially if you love the regular segment at the end of most episodes where we talk about what we've been reading, you will also love my weekly Hashtag AmReading email. Is it about what I've been reading and loving? It is. And if you like what I write, you'll like what I read. But it is also about everything else. I've been ‘hashtag am-doing', sleeping, buying clothes and returning them, launching a spelling bee habit, reading other people's weekly emails. Let's just say it's kind of the email about not getting the work done—which, I mean, that's important too, right? We can't work all the time. It's also free, and I think you'll really like it. So you can find it at KJdellantonia.com or kjda.substack.com or by clicking on my name on Substack, if you do that kind of thing or of course in the show notes for this podcast. Come hang out with me. You won't be sorry.Multiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it's recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.KJ Dell'AntoniaHey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the weekly podcast, while writing all the things—short things, long things, pitches, proposals, fiction, nonfiction. And somebody told me they thought this was a recorded intro. And I just want you to know I do this live every time, which is why there's this, come on, there's more variety here, people, and you should know that. Anyway, here we are, all four of us, for we got a topic today. But before we do that, we should introduce ourselves in order of seniority, please.Jess LaheyI'm Jess Lahey. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. And I laugh, because when you said seniority, all I could do was think of us in our little eave space in my old house, down the street from you, not knowing what the heck we were doing. But yeah, we've been doing this for a long time now. You can find my... you can find my journalism at The New York Times, at The Washington Post, at The Atlantic, and everything else at Jessicalahey.com.Sarina BowenI'm Sarina Bowen. I'm the author of many novels. My new one this fall is called Thrown for a Loop, and it will be everywhere that books are sold, which is very exciting to me, and all about me at Sarinabowen.com.Jennie NashI am the newest of the co-hosts, and so happy to be among this group of incredibly smart and prolific and awesome women, and I'm the founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, which is a company on a mission to lead the emerging book coaching industry. And you can find us at bookcoaches.com or authoraccelerator.com.KJ Dell'AntoniaI'm KJ Dell'Antonia. I'm the author of three novels, the latest of which is Playing the Witch Card, and the most televised of which is The Chicken Sisters—Season Two coming soon to a Hallmark network near you. And I'm also the former editor and lead writer of The Motherlode, making me our... well, and Jennie too, like the crossover. I've done too many different kinds of writing—probably should have stayed in my lane. Oh well. And our plan today—as we're recording, it is summer. And a pretty frequent thing that happens in the summer is that you need to put your project down for a little while, because you have house guests, because you're going on the kind of vacation that does not involve working, because you just need a break or you're sick. That's not really a summer thing, but it definitely happens. Anyway, we wanted to talk about how, you know, what—what do you do to make that work better?Jess LaheyI think a lot about being a parent and needing to take a break too. And you know, this is something I talk a lot about with, you know, other writers who are sort of struggling, especially since I read a lot about parenting—who are struggling to—with that guilt of, you know, like, I feel like I owe my time to the words, and I feel like I owe my time to the children. And finding a way to take a break from the words and not feel guilty about not being with the words can be really, really hard, especially when you're going gung-ho on something. So I want to make sure that we figure out a way to have a break without guilt. That's like the big question I get a lot—is, how do you, you know, either from the parenting or the writing side?KJ Dell'AntoniaAnd I was thinking about it more from a mechanics side.Jess LaheyYeah.KJ Dell'AntoniaHow do you put this thing aside for a week or two weeks or even a month? And know where you were?Jess LaheyRight.KJ Dell'AntoniaAnd come back and feel like it does not take you forever to dig in.Sarina BowenYeah. Um, so we've got the guilt question. We've got the mechanics of how to do it. And I would just like to add a layer, which is the fear factor.Jess LaheyYeah.Sarina BowenI have this thing where, when I walk away from a manuscript, I become afraid of it. So it seems scarier when I take a break. Like, even if it's not true—that I don't know where I am or that I become unmoored from the channel of that book and it seems intimidating to go back to.Jess LaheyCan I add one more layer as well? And that's the identity factor. You know, if I identify as a writer, what am I if I'm not actively writing something? And that messes my head up a lot. So I would love to add that added layer in as well and make sure we discuss that.Jennie NashWell, and I have something totally different from all of those, which is that I often find when I go on vacation, I am more inspired and motivated to work on my project than I was in my real life. It tends to light a fire under me. So then I'm faced with that choice of, you know, wanting to really lean into it. And, you know, just like a really small piece of that story is, I love to write on airplanes. I just love it. Give me a very long flight, and it's—I just want to work and not talk to anybody. And, you know, it's awesome. So I feel some guilt around that. When I'm with my family, it's like, don't talk to me, don't watch movies. You know, I'm—I'm enjoying my plane time, doing my work. So I have that reality.KJ Dell'AntoniaWell, that's the choice that you have to start with, is, am I just, you know, can I not? Am I—do I need to accept the reality, which is that this is a beach trip with extended family and some, you know, my—to multiple generations, and I inevitably am going to be the person who is cooking and figuring out where the garbage has to go in the Airbnb? I should, you know, I—I will feel better if I just accept the reality that I'm not going to wake and work. Or, you know, is it a—is it a trip where you can schedule some work time and want to? Or is it a trip where you affirmatively want to give yourself a break? Or is it also, I mean, I sort of think that the last possibility—well, there are probably multiples—is I just want to touch this every day. So I feel like you can kind of—you're like, you're either like, just—no, not going to happen, not going to pretend it's going to happen, not going to feel the guilt. That's the—that's where we are. And there's sort of a, I just want to open the file every day and keep it warm and friendly. And on, you know these three—three days I have an hour.Jess LaheySo let's do this. Let's—let's do mechanics first, since that's the real nuts-and-bolts stuff, and then we'll talk about all the touchy-feely stuff after that. So let's do mechanics first. It sounds like you have thoughts, KJ…?KJ Dell'AntoniaWell, I was actually thinking that Sarina did this pretty recently.Jess LaheyYeah, that's true.Sarina BowenYeah. Like, you know, I, um, I have found mechanically that leaving yourself notes every time you walk away from your manuscript is a good thing. So this is sort of like a best practices in your life idea, where I will have a writing day, and it's done now, and I'm going to get up and go do other things in my life. If I pick up my notebook, and I write down where I am—like, okay, and the next thing that has to happen is this—like, it could be really short or not. But taking better notes about the structure of the thing I'm working on is serving me on so many levels that it just slots right in here. Like, I took a big trip in April, and I thought I might work, but then I didn't, and I really seamlessly came right back in, because I knew where I was, and I avoided a lot of my own fear. So, if the practices that help you become a good day-to-day writer also can be practices that help you in this very instance, the mechanics of picking up your book again are that you left yourself a note right in your document, um, or in your notebook, that says, and here's what I think is supposed to happen next. And, yeah.KJ Dell'AntoniaThat's going to be gold for an unexpected break too, because that happens, you know, right? You get one of those phone calls, and it's a week before you're back or more.Sarina BowenYeah.KJ Dell'AntoniaYeah. I love this practice. This is one of those things I forget to do.Jennie NashI feel like I—I feel like I have to add to that a couple things. That the only reason you can do that is, A, if you have a place to take notes, which—which could be your, the document itself that you're working on. But Sarina talked about a notebook, right? You have a place that you know, that you can find that, which is not an insignificant thing to have, or...Sarina BowenCorrect!Jennie NashRight?! Or, in the case of me, it's like, I have 47 notebooks. Well, which one did I put the note in?Sarina BowenRight.Jennie NashBut then the second thing is, I mean, this is something that I find so inspiring about the way you work, Sarina, and it—and it's a thing that I teach—is you have to know what you're writing, you know, in order to know where you are, what the structure is, and what you're doing, and to ask those—like, you have to have done the thought work of what, what it is you're trying to do and what your intention is. Otherwise, you sort of don't ever know where you are or where you're going. So...Sarina BowenRight, but that's on two levels. Like, you could—let's just say you have successfully written yourself an Inside Outline, you know, the way that you do it—you still might need that granular thing.Jennie NashOh yeah!Sarina BowenLike, you might know where you are in the arc of the book, but you might actually need the note that's like, "And now we're going to wash the dishes." I mean, let's please not put that in the novel, but you know what I mean.Jennie NashYeah, yeah. But that intentionality of, on the big picture, what am I doing, and on the small picture—in this chapter, in this scene, in this moment, and with this character—what was I... how'd that fit into the whole? What was I thinking? And those things are not—they're not easy. Like, we're talking about them like, "Oh, you just..." You know, like I was saying, what if you have 47 notebooks? That literally is a problem I have. It's like, I know I wrote this note down, and I don't know where I put it—digitally or analog.Sarina BowenRight. I confess I actually do still have this problem. Like, even with all of my best practices, like, put into—sometimes it's like, well, is that in the document, or is it in my notebook? And then—or I thought about it at four in the morning and actually didn't write it down anywhere. And I'm looking anyway...Jennie NashOh, I do that too. I absolutely do that too. I'm convinced that I left a note while I was driving—that's a thing I often do. I'll leave—I'll have Siri write me a note, and then somehow it doesn't appear, or it's like, I know I did this, I know I asked her to do this... you know.Jess LaheyI actually have—I was doing the recycling, and I realized that I was in big trouble because three sides of a box I'd had down in the basement with me while I was working on a project—I was doing something with my, getting some beehives ready—and I was listening to an audiobook that is research for a project I'm working on, and I had scribbled some really important notes to myself about how I was supposed to start a chapter on. And it was a great start. It was like a whole paragraph on the three sides of the box, with an old Sharpie I found down in the basement. And then I realized I almost recycled, like, some really useful outline stuff.Multiple Speakers[all laughing]Jess LaheySo normally—no, so I actually have them. While you guys are talking about something else, since we do see each other while we're recording this, I'll show you later. But the thing that I normally do is either in the document, like right where I left off, or in my main notebook, because I am so bad at finding those notes that I have strewn all over my office or on the side of a cardboard box.KJ Dell'AntoniaI have had the problem lately of I'm not in a manuscript, and that it's much easier when you're in a manuscript to come back to a manuscript, but I'm in a notebook full of assorted random Blueprint challenge, you know, like trying to—I'm, I'm in figuring out where this is going mode, which means I do a lot of thinking while I'm not working that then hopefully I go and write down. But it also means that I frequently sit down and I'm like, well, am I going to think about who these people are? Am I going to think about what the plot is? What am I going to do? So I've been trying to leave myself like a task, something that will, that will just get me, get me back in, because sometimes that's the problem. I, you know, I open the notebook, and there's no obvious thing to do, and the next thing I know, I'm buying running shoes.Jennie NashWell, since we're talking about nuts and bolts, when I said that I often get inspired when I go away or go on vacation and I want to work, I'm not talking about I'm going to go sit in a library or coffee shop for three hours. What, what I mean by that is I often have ideas that I want to capture, and so I have a little notebook that I bring on vacation, and what I like to do is go to bed early enough that I can download all the things I thought that day. I need that space and time to—if it's, if I'm working on something, it's in my head. It's not going to not be in my head. And so the one sort of new mechanical thing that I, that I do, is have that "vacation notes notebook" with me.KJ Dell'AntoniaI always carry one, and I never use it. So there's that.Jess LaheyI get—I am at my most inspired to write when I specifically can't write, which is usually behind the wheel of my car. So I use, in my car, I have been known to, you know, either scribble on things—which, totally don't do that—or to record myself on my phone. But then, audio things, I'm particularly bad at going back and listening to; that seems like it's just too much work. So those tend to get lost a lot. I need to come up with a better system for that. But it is predictable that if I am in a place where I cannot physically write, I will be at my most inspired to write.Jennie NashJess, that's kind of what I'm talking about. That's what happens to me, is I might say I'm leaving all work behind. I'm going off the grid. I'm not doing the thing. And that's when I most want to do the thing. And I, like, my brain seems to really get inspired. What? What do you think that's about? Is that...Jess LaheyI, you know, I, I was very worried that it was my sort of, um—sorry, what's the word I'm looking for? It was—it's my, my brain's way of saying, "Oh, you couldn't possibly work now, so let's have some of the best ideas so that you seem like a good little doobie writer, but it's physically impossible for you to write now." It's just a really weird thing, and maybe one of the other things I thought about is that I'm often listening to a book that I'm really into, which also inspires me to write. I've been listening to a lot of really great books lately, and you can't listen to a book—even one that inspires you deeply—and actually write at the same time, which is another quandary.Sarina BowenYou know what, though? This is not uniquely your brain messing with you—like, this is shower thoughts.Multiple Speakers[Overlapping: “Mm-hmm.” “Sorry.” “Ohhh...”]Sarina BowenBut everybody—everybody has those great ideas in the shower, and it's because you have unhooked yourself. You are just in there with the shampoo and the conditioner and that razor that you probably should change the blade with, and like, you know, there is nowhere to write and nothing to do. So your brain is like, I am free right now to unclench and actually solve this problem of chapter 17, and that's what—that's what happens.Jess LaheyIt is my duty, whenever we mention this, to bring up that—years ago, Ron Lieber, the write... uh... the "Your Money" columnist at The New York Times, told me that he has a waterproof little whiteboard situation that's— that lives in the shower. He and his wife, Jodi Kantor—amazing writer as well, Pulitzer Prize–winning writer, even— that these would be people who might just need a waterproof whiteboard in the shower with them.Sarina BowenBut would that ruin the magic…?KJ Dell'AntoniaIt might just...Multiple Speakers[all laughing]Jess LaheyIf you had a place to write it down, your brain would—like—be... your brain would say, "Sorry, I'm not coming up with good ideas."Sarina BowenBecause I don't think I am willing to take this risk. I take a lot of risks in my life, but this one—like; we do not mess with the shower thoughts. I think, I think...KJ Dell'AntoniaSo, so what do we do if you didn't do any of this? If what—you know—what are—you're listening to this podcast, coming back from your trip, and you're like, I... was writing... something...Sarina BowenYou know what, though? I almost feel that we should point out the fact that, like, that is kind of unlikely. Like, somebody should feel welcome to take this trip and to have all those thoughts, and even if you didn't write them down on your whiteboard in the shower or on your handy notebook, like, I would argue that unhitching yourself in the first place possibly leads to a lot of creative development that, even if you don't capture it in the moment, is still with you. Like, I had this fantastic trip in April. I thought I was going to work, and then I did not, and it was, like, the best two weeks of my life. So then, the other day, my husband said, “Hey, there's a new article you need to read in The Athletic,” which is a New York Times sports blog, and I have just pulled it up so that we can recommend it, about how walking makes you a better problem solver. And the framing story of this article is about a retired baseball coach, but, um, but then, when they got around to studying it, um, they said this question planted the seed for the first set of studies to measure if walking produces more creativity. In the series of experiments, Oppezzo and Schwartz [Marily Oppezzo & Daniel L. Schwartz] asked 176 college students to complete different creative thinking tasks while sitting, walking on a treadmill, walking outside through campus, or being pushed in a wheelchair. In one example, the students had to come up with atypical uses for random objects, and anyway, on average, the students' creative output increased by 60% when they were walking.Jennie NashThat's so cool!Sarina BowenAnd the article is—it's so cool—it's called An MLB manager found value in long walks. Research suggests it's a ‘brain-changing power'.Jess LaheyI have put a spot for it in the show notes. And I should mention that this is all part of what we call the default mode network. This is the—the part of our brain that is the wandering, most creative part of our brain. And we can get there lots of ways. Walking is a fantastic way to do it.KJ Dell'AntoniaSarina, if you do have the fear of the manuscript when you're coming back to it, like, take—you know, travel back in time to maybe when you were a little less confident in your abilities. What do you do to get past the fear and sit down?Sarina BowenThere is only one solution, and that is sitting down. And I'm not so great at this—like, when, when the fear creeps up on me, in spite of my best intentions, man, I will do anything to avoid that sucker. And then when I finally do, and I wade back in, almost every time my response is, Oh, this isn't so bad. I know where—I kind of remember now. It's going to be fine, you know. But it's so easy to put off work out of fear. It's—it's the—it's the one big obstacle. Like, I don't put work off for other reasons, you know, because I'm tired or whatever. It's because I'm afraid that there's something fundamentally wrong with the project, or fundamentally wrong with me, and that is almost always what's keeping me from doing good work.Jennie NashThere was, back in the day before computers became what they are now, people would frequently lose manuscript drafts. It was just much harder to save your work. And I can't—I can't explain exactly what changed, but it was. People frequently lost huge chunks of their work if they didn't actively back up. And when I was a new coach and working with writers who would lose their manuscripts, they would be—understandably—beyond devastated. And this often was full manuscripts, just unrecoverable, full manuscripts. And it was true that if they sat down to recreate what they'd written, it would really flow from them, for that same reason—it was still in their brain. They—they had—they'd written it, so there was a sense that they had, they owned it, and they could sit down, and it was kind of quite remarkable. And I would confidently say to them, just sit down, start writing. I think it will come to you, and it always did. It's very interesting.Jess LaheyThere's an example—we've interviewed Sarah Stewart Taylor many times now, and she tells the story of, a long time ago, her youngest managed to crawl across the computer in such a way as to create a password for the document itself, and there's nothing that can be done. She was on the phone with Word—with Microsoft—for a long time, and they're like, look, this is a password you created. We can't—that's not recoverable. So she had to go and recreate—I believe she was about a third of the way into a book—but she said that it actually flowed really well, and that, you know, she'd had it, it had been cooking and stuff like that. So that massive fear of, oh my gosh, how am I going to get back into this project when it has just disappeared? It turned out to be not a thing—that it actually came really easily to her.Jennie NashJess, you're bringing all the very weird stories today, and I'm so here for it—notes on boxes, babies making passwords.Jess LaheyYeah, well, and the hard part—the funny part about that—is like, you cannot recreate a toddler, essentially, like bashing away at your keyboard and creating a password that's never coming back. Sorry.Sarina BowenThere is a writer—she once gave a talk that I heard—a very successful young adult author, Cynthia Leitich Smith, and she apparently wrote a discovery draft of the novel to, like, figure out what it was about and then deleted it and started over on purpose.Jennie NashOn purpose?!Sarina BowenYes, and everyone in the room gasped because, of course, you know that I just rather, like, been in a lot of pain. I'd rather have oral surgery than delete my first draft of a novel. But, um... but yeah, if she was unafraid to get back there after that kind of break, then I think we can all handle it.KJ Dell'AntoniaThis is true. I've never deleted a draft, but I have just gone—poofft—"Let's, let's, let's start again." In fact, almost every time. Kind of sad. I'm doing it now, actually, but it's not a full draft. Anyway. So take the breaks, right? That's what we're saying here.Sarina BowenYeah, take the break.KJ Dell'AntoniaYou can break however you do it, you know, whichever thing you pick, and if you don't do what you thought you were going to do, that's cool, too. It's going to—it's going to be fine.Jess LaheyCan I mention something that has—so that now that we've sort of done mechanics, we've done a little bit about the fear thing, the—the identity thing—has been really hard for me, in that I have these two books that I've written, and I've written a bunch and researched a bunch of things over the past couple of years, and people keep asking me, what are you writing? What are you writing? And the reality is, like, I'm not. I'm working on something, I'm researching something, and I've written a lot of things. In fact, now I'm holding up my cardboard box pieces—I found them. But the day—I'm not, like, meeting a 1200-words-a-day goal. And sometimes I feel really... I feel like a fraud. I feel like a massive fraud. Like, what kind of writer is not actually sitting down and writing 2,000 words a day? And that's incredibly difficult for me. Like, I don't deserve to call myself a writer, even though I have a couple of books out there and I wrote—you know—did all this other stuff. But the thing that I have—there are a couple of things that have really helped—and one of those is to understand that and have some grace for myself around what I happen to know full well what my process is. Yes, I wrote a couple of book proposals that didn't turn into books, but it was only through writing the book proposals that I discovered that those books weren't something that I wanted to write, and only through doing all of this research on audiobooks and writing on the side of cardboard boxes. That's the way I've written every one of my books. And it's not—it's just what works for me. And so having a little bit of this, you know, this feeling of insecurity as a writer, I don't think is—I don't think is unique to me. I think a lot of writers feel this, and it's...KJ Dell'AntoniaNo, all the rest of them are...Jess LaheyAll of them are really...KJ Dell'AntoniaYeah, no, everyone else is just like, well, of course. No, I'm not an imposter.Jess LaheyBut what's great is when I sit down with other writers and I say, what is an integral part of your process that isn't actually about putting the words on the page? That's not some bogus, like, excuse for not writing. You know, the gardening is part of it, the—the research is part of it, the listening to audiobooks is part of it. The writing—or the walking—is part of it. And it's not just a part of it. It is an incredibly important part of it for me, and—and understanding that and owning that about myself has been really a good thing for allowing myself to not—I'm not productive when I just feel guilty or like an imposter every day. It—that's not good for my process. But none of you ever feel that, right?KJ Dell'AntoniaOr apparently the people around you…Jess LaheyThe other thing that has been—well, the other thing that's been really, really helpful is the—and especially from the parenting perspective—is, or the marriage perspective, or the dog perspective, or the bees perspective, is I need to be fully committed to the thing right in front of me when I'm doing that thing. And if I'm feeling guilty about not being with the words when I'm with my children, or not being with my children when I'm with the words, that is awful, too. And so I have found that when I have to let go of all the other stuff and be fully, 100% in, I'm highly distractible. And so if I'm not fully in the thing, and that—all that guilt of not being over there doing that other thing—that's just taking away from the actual process of writing or researching or whatever it is, or taking care of my bees. I have to be fully in the thing I'm in and not feel guilty about not doing something else. And that's been a growth moment for me, too. It only took me—how old am I? I'm 55 now, and I got there somewhere around 50, I think.Jennie NashThere is also—I mean, I—I love what you're saying, and that is a thing to strive for, for sure—to be, to be present in whatever you're doing. But there is also this idea—I always think of it as mental real estate—that you leave for your project, for your idea, for your writing, for your book. That you, that you have a space in your brain devoted to that, and that you visit, whether or not you're producing words. And I think that that, too, is writing. I think, in some ways, that's more writing than sitting at the keyboard. I mean, I always object to the process of just putting words down. And a lot of the things that challenge writers to do that, because they skip that part—the thinking part and the having-the-part—you know, the real estate-in-your-brain part. And I think this connects to the shower—shower thoughts, right? You're gardening or beekeeping, you're walking, you're thinking, you're writing proposals and throwing them out. You're doing all that, that, that's writing. That's the—that's writing in my mind.KJ Dell'AntoniaAnd it's not... I mean the other thing we do say a lot is, you know, "Good writing comes last."Jennie NashYeah.KJ Dell'AntoniaYou've got to do the other stuff. So you can do it on vacation, or you could not do it on vacation. This—I don't think—we just—maybe I—this was my idea, and I think maybe I just needed the reassurance. I have a couple weeks coming up where I'm probably not going to do anything, and I just needed a reminder that that's cool. That's cool. It's all right. It's going to be okay. That's what I—if y'all could just pat me on the head and say "it's going to be okay."Multiple Speakers[Overlapping voices: “Mm-hmm,” “Sorry,” “Ohhh...”]KJ Dell'AntoniaSix or ten times an hour, that might be about what I need.Jess LaheyWell and one of the other things that has been really cool this summer is I've been on a streak of really good books. And every one of those really good books that I've been reading has made me like, Oh, I could do this. Oh my gosh, I could do that. I could write like her. I could I could write this other thing. And it's, it's all that energy is good and it's all a good thing to sit on a beach and read a book, or sit in the woods and read a book. It's all great.KJ Dell'AntoniaAll right, everybody, go collect some energy. Hey, on that note, who's read something good lately?Jennie NashI want to hear all these great books, Jess.Jess LaheySo I really have been on this roll. I've already talked about Atmosphere in an earlier podcast, the Taylor Jenkins Reid thing. But then I've been on this Tess Gerritsen jag, because we're—I'm interviewing Tess Gerritsen later this week. You guys will get to hear her later this summer. I am... Sarina and KJ, I believe, read the first of her new series that she has set in Maine and with a couple of retired CIA agents and spies in Maine. And then I enjoyed those so much that I went all the way back to the beginning—to her first book, The Surgeon, which I didn't even know was turned into this whole series called Rizzoli and Isles. It's a television show—I had no idea. And now I'm deep into Tess Gerritsen land. I'm still—I found out that there's going to be a movie of the book by the guy who wrote The Martian, Andy...Sarina BowenAndy WeirJess LaheyAndy Weir, thank you. And I was warned very specifically on social media not to watch the preview—the trailer—for the new movie that is going to be coming out with Ryan Gosling later on this summer, because it ruins the book. The book is called Hail Mary… Project Hail Mary. So I very quickly turned away from social media and said, Ooh, I better read the book really quickly before anyone ruins it for me, and I am enjoying the heck out of Project Hail Mary. So it's been really fun. Yeah.Sarina BowenI am reading a book that KJ put into my hands. And the fun part is that I don't remember why she put it into my hands, you know. Like, why did I pick up this book? Like, it happens all the time. It's called All the Other Mothers Hate Me by Sarah Harman.Jennie NashWhat a great title.Sarina BowenYeah, like, I picked up this book, and my husband said, oh my God, what a great title. And so, yes, that's super cool. And it's very voice-y. And the—the flap copy has the—a premise that smacks of a thriller, but the voice isn't like all deep, dark thriller. And so I think maybe the contrast of those two things might be why KJ put it into my hands. But I am enjoying the fabulous writing, and I'm—I'm still at the beginning, but the way she introduces characters is really sharp. So even that alone is like a little master class on introducing characters.KJ Dell'AntoniaYeah, that was why I gave it to you, was that we'd been talking about, you know, the voice, and also because we'd been talking about, like, funny thrillers versus thriller-y thrillers. And this isn't funny, but it's super voice-y. It reminds me of the one you pressed into my hands, which maybe is a little funnier—Listen for the Lie.Sarina BowenYeah, yeah.Jennie NashWell, I'm reading something very different, which is not—not very beachy. I go to a yoga class that is taught by a middle grade English teacher, and she runs her yoga class sort of like English class, where she always starts with a poem and throughout the class, she refers back to the poem in a very embodied way that you're doing the yoga around. And then she reads the poem again at the end. It's—its spectacular. She's—she's so popular at our yoga studio that you have to, you know, fight your way in. But she read a poem by a woman named Rosemerry Wahtola Trommer—and that's Rosemerry like Christmas Merry, so: Rosemerry. And the book is called The Unfolding. And I say it's very different from what you are all mentioning because this woman experienced the death of her young son and father in very close proximity, and her poems are ostensibly about grief, but they're just filled with joy and hope and delight. And, you know, it's kind of that thing you're talking about, Sarina—that it's—here's a book about tragedy and grief, but it's—there's something about the voice that just is—is fresh. And they're just—they're just stunning, just absolutely stunning. And I have gone and ordered all her books, of which there are—are many. So she's a new voice to me, and I just—I can't get enough of them. They're incredible.KJ Dell'AntoniaWell, here I am going to go back to the fiction summary read-y thing. I am very late to The Thursday Murder Club party, but it is joy. It is so much fun—really your sort of classic Agatha Christie stuff, but way, way funnier and more entertaining, with a dash of elderly spies. So we're on that theme. And then I also want to mention, just because I liked it so much—and I'm not sure I want everyone to read it—What Kind of Paradise by Janelle Brown. This could be your lit fic read of the summer. It's somewhere—but—but it's still a page turner. And I thought the premise was extremely great. Basically, it's: what if the Unabomber had also raised a young daughter with him in the woods on all of his theories, back when the Unabomber was living in the woods, and inadvertently involved her in his first kill before she got away? And now she's an adult looking back at what happened. And Janelle Brown is a Silicon Valley person. She's really steeped in this culture. She really knows this world. It's a really good book—plus super entertaining.Jennie NashI love it.KJ Dell'AntoniaThat's it!Jess LaheyI love it when we have a lot of good stuff, because there have been a couple weeks this year where we were like, I was just let down this time around. But yay, I'm loving this.KJ Dell'AntoniaAll right, I think that's it for us this week, kids. Remember, if you support the podcast, you get bonus content every week right now, because we are killing it. You might get Jess's Soup to Nuts series, where she is coaching a fellow writer on creating a nonfiction proposal that also will work with her speaking career. You can join me and Jennie on a weekly basis as we flail our way through the beginnings of writing a couple of books. And of course, on a monthly basis, we've got the Booklab, where we look at the First Pages of novels submitted by listeners. And if you'd like to submit to the Booklab, that'd be great. Jess will put the link in the show notes.Jess LaheyIndeed, Jess will. And until next week, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Liz and Sarah share their plan to spend all of July finishing a solid draft of their novel. It’s time to get it done! In Take A Hike, they talk about the upside of the downslide of Hollywood. When everything changes, new opportunities arise! In The Craft (& Fain), Sarah talks about the Poketo Concept Planner that’s helping her make headway on a creative project. This week’s Hollywood Hack is courtesy of Jessica Lahey from the #AmWriting podcast — set a UPS/FedEx alert so that you can preempt barking dogs. Finally, Sarah recommends the graphic novel Feeding Ghosts by Tessa Hulls. Sign up for Liz and Sarah’s free weekly newsletter at https://happierinhollywoodpod.substack.com. Get in touch on Instagram: @Sfain & @LizCraft Get in touch on Threads: @Sfain & @LizCraft Visit our website: https://happierinhollywood.com Join our Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/HappierinHollywood/ Happier in Hollywood is part of ‘The Onward Project,’ a family of podcasts brought together by Gretchen Rubin—all about how to make your life better. Check out the other Onward Project podcasts—Happier with Gretchen Rubin, and Side Hustle School . If you liked this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and tell your friends! LINKS: Jessica Lahey of #AmWriting: https://www.jessicalahey.com/amwriting-podcast The Gift of Failure: https://amzn.to/4kRej7b The Addiction Inoculation: https://amzn.to/3FPiVvC Poketo Concept Planner: https://www.poketo.com/products/concept-planner Noted in Ojai: https://www.notedojai.com/ Feeding Ghosts by Tessa Hulls: https://amzn.to/45Bz7ed Photo by S. Tsuchiya on Unsplash See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.