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Episode 34: 5 Common MistakesA discussion about five common mistakes in active shooter events response and active shooter incident management.Bill Godfrey:Welcome to the Active Shooter Incident Management Podcast, my name is Bill Godfrey, I'm your host of the podcast. Today's topic we are going to talk about five common mistakes in active shooter events response and active shooter incident management. I've got with me three of the instructors from C3 Pathways, Stephen Shaw from law enforcement, Steve thanks for coming it.Stephen Shaw:Thanks for having me, Bill.Bill Godfrey:Absolutely. We got Tom Billington on the Fire EMS side, Tom good to see you again.Tom Billington:Good morning.Bill Godfrey:And Robert McMahan from the law enforcement side, Robert good to see you.Robert McMahan:Good to be here again, thanks.Bill Godfrey:You doing well today?Robert McMahan:I am.Bill Godfrey:All right, fantastic. So today's topic, five common mistakes. And I'm going to take these in the order of how the response goes and not necessarily which ones are the biggest sins if you will. But the first one I want to talk about, and Tom I'm going to ask you to highlight on this one a little bit, is dispatcher training. Dispatchers can do a whole lot to help you in these events and can help you avoid mistakes if you provide them the training, and this is one that obviously has to be taken care of pre-event. We teach our guys on the ground, our responders on the ground what the benchmarks are that we're generally looking for which is the contact teams are downrange, our threat is neutralized or there's no active threat anymore, we got our RTFs up, they get an ambulance exchange point established and patients start getting transported, those are kind of the key benchmarks we're trying to get them to look at. And it's important for dispatch to know about those, but there's some other key benchmarks that dispatch probably wants to hear to make sure that we're on the right track. Tom, tell us a little bit about those.Tom Billington:Definitely. We have to remember that the dispatchers are the eyes and eyes for all of us, Fire EMS, law enforcement, and so dispatch needs to make sure that they are telling everybody what's going on. A big thing's staging location, if a staging is established, where is it located? Who has established it? And we need to make sure that again, law enforcement, fire and EMS know that information, it's put out there, because eventually we want everybody to report to staging and not to the scene. And so getting that information transmitted as soon as possible is very, very important. It's important that benchmarks such as when the first arriving officer arrives on the scene, obviously that's an important benchmark to note. When our contacts teams have entered or made contact with the bad guy or bad people, things like that, having those notes and benchmarks and again transmitting them not just to law enforcement but to fire, the fire guys need to know also, "Hey, the bad guy may be down," or, "Hey, there's shooting going on," or, "Here's the description of a bad person." So things like that, again, just remembering we're all on one team and sending that information to both sides and continually updating it.And you also want to make sure that we have the elapsed time noted and transmitted to both sides. It's important to know after about 10 minutes letting everybody know, "Total scene time 10 minutes folks." Then, "15 minutes folks, 20 minutes folks." Because many times I've been on incidents that last several hours and unless the dispatcher will remind me of how long we've been there, I kind of lose track of time. And we are dealing with not just the bad guy but we're going against the clock trying to save lives. So having that reminder from dispatch, that cue that so many minutes have passed, is an important part of dispatch.Robert McMahan:When I was working, we had this active shooter incident management training and I included our dispatchers in that and I encouraged them to keep that checklist at their work station so that if they weren't hearing some of those things going on, like if we didn't establish staging early, they know what we needed, I encourage them to ask, "Where would you like staging? Where would you like the command post?" To help us remember to get some of those benchmarks done and help drive that incident towards success.Stephen Shaw:And a lot of times on scene, those conversations are happening face to face or maybe over the phone but they just don't make it to dispatch, and it's up to the first responders to make sure they're putting that out to the dispatchers to that they know that so they can relay it to other people.Bill Godfrey:So Tom let me make sure I recap those ones that you hit. So we want our dispatchers to be familiar with the benchmarks, and as Robert said really, really important that they are empowered to know if we're five, seven minutes into the incident and nobody's said where we want staging, probably need to ask about that. Do we have a command post set up or it's not clear that we do or we don't have a location. Updating information on the suspect.Robert McMahan:I think that's important for the cops too because we're typically driven towards getting to the bad guy, but we also have some rescue responsibilities in there and being reminded that, "Hey, we're already 10 minutes into this and we haven't started getting RTFs downrange," or whatever it is that helps rescue those patients, get them to the hospitals, that will kind of help put a little gas on our pedals to accomplish some of those things that help that.Bill Godfrey:Yeah, what we're looking for is all patients transported by the 20 minute mark, and that's from the 20 minute of the initiation of the incident, that's a pretty aggressive timeline and if you start wasting minutes here and there, you're not going to hit that 20 minute mark. So that's I think a really great role for dispatch is to keep that clock every present in everyone's mind. All right, so for the dispatcher training, including dispatchers in training, providing them some education on the checklist, giving them some benchmarks, empowering them to be able to say to whoever's running the scene, "Where did you want staging set up? Can you advise your command post location?" Those kind of key things.And I think the other one, and I want to hit on this, is that it's really important for the law enforcement dispatcher and the fire and/or EMS dispatcher if you've got three of them, they need to coordinate that back channel stuff a lot. So as information gets updated on the law enforcement channel, it needs to get passed over to the fire EMS side and vis versa. It's entirely possible that fire might get to the area and set up a staging location and if they do we can shortcut one of the other issues which is having more than one staging location, we can shortcut that by dispatchers passing that to the other discipline and kind of coordinating that. All right, so that's number one, dispatcher training.Number two, getting control of the incident early as part of that initial response. And this really involves the idea of the fifth man, of getting somebody in that tactical position early in the first few minutes. Robert, you want to talk to us a little bit about that?Robert McMahan:Sure. The biggest problem I think we have in law enforcement I think is getting our arms around the incident and having some control early on. And every one of them I've been to, there's always a whole bunch of cops running in to take care of the bad guy and they're trained to do that, but somebody's got to get control of that early on so that we can organize our response and be more effective at it. And I think one of the key issues I've seen is upper law enforcement command buying into and trusting this fifth man concept or the tactical operations group. And typically what I see is they don't trust a line level guy to be that fifth guy or to be that tactical supervisor early on in the incident. This position is not about who has SWAT experience or who is the best tactically minded person, this is about getting some control over the contact teams and at least tracking where they're going, what they're doing, so they don't run into each other and have a blue on blue and organizing effectively their response. So they're covering the campus and getting to the threat and starting to provide those security measures so that we can get other things done like get RTFs in there.I think part of what lends itself to that problem is unfortunately upper law enforcement command doesn't attend a lot of these trainings, and they don't have confidence in what's being trained or they simply don't understand it or don't know it. And I think as upper law enforcement command, if we would dedicate ourselves to this type of training so that we can understand the process and trust the process, I think it would help out to resolve that issue.Stephen Shaw:Robert's talking a lot about that fifth man, that tactical position. And that's one that's really key for something like this. There's a big gap between your incident command and your actual officers who are running contact teams or RTF or perimeter. There's a lot of stuff that happens in the meantime, and that tactical position really helps that incident commander to take a lot of stuff off his place to say, "Now I can deal with these higher level issues." Politicians or upper management or whatever the case may be, and let that tactical person deal with the boots on the ground. It's a tough balance because we're so programmed from an early stage, you to the academy, we talked about teamwork, you're working at a team but essentially you're expected to do this job by yourself. You ride around in a car by yourself, you show up to work by yourself, you go to calls by yourself, you stop cars by yourself. And then for this, we're asking you to say, "Look, just pull the reigns back a little bit and see if there's something else that needs to be done."And it's tough to balance because you want to get in there, you want to address the bad guy, you want to start treating people but at some point once you have enough people there to address that issue, at some point we have to slow down and say, "There's some other issues that need to be resolved here." Some things we'll talk about later like our priorities. Maybe my priority if I'm there 10 minutes into the incident my priority might not be to go after the bad guy, my priority might be to start securing some areas so that I can start treating people. But there's got to be somebody there who's got a higher level view of what's going on this scene to say that, because it's tough for me as a responding officer to look at this big picture and know what to do there. And it's just something that we have to work on in training and also in just our day to day is, incident command is not something that law enforcement does a lot of, we do it but we just don't call it that so we're kind of unpracticed at it. But it's very, very crucial especially when it comes to something as complex and rapidly evolving as an active shooter or a terrorist attack.Robert McMahan:Yeah, Steve you and I talked about this just a little bit before the podcast and that we exercise this tactical concept with our SWAT teams and you and I had similar experiences with that where you had a tactical leader that would be running different elements of that swat team, well it's the same concept here only we don't have the luxury of time to wait for that guy to get there and somebody's got to step in and take charge of that early on.Bill Godfrey:I think those are really, really good points. And the other thing that I don't want to let get by here is, Robert, you said it doesn't necessarily have to be the tactically minded guy in the first few minutes, we just need somebody to kind of get it organized, and the whole point of this is saving time. It's not that you can't have the first 30 officers rush in and wait for the lieutenant to show up or the sergeant to show up and begin to organize it. You can do that, but it's not going to be as fast as if you organize it before you've got 30 people there. If you can get some organization to it and at least as those guys are going, those guys and gals are going in, get them organized into some teams so you can make some assignments, you can do more than one thing at a time, you don't have 30 people committed to standing over the bad guy that they're neutralized. You've got a couple teams that are committed to that, you've got some other teams that are working on some other things, and so really it's not necessarily about you can't do it the other way, you can, it's just not fast.Robert McMahan:The longer you wait to get this done then the more people you have down range looking for the bad guy or doing other things, the longer it's going to take you to organize this and get your arms around it and start to accomplish those other benchmarks that you need to do.Stephen Shaw:And it's inefficient. A lot of things happen twice, a lot of areas get cleared twice that don't need to be cleared and then we're leaving other things that have not been done yet. So like that crowd of 30 people running around, it can do one thing very fast but we're trying to accomplish 15, 20, 100 things during this incident and they all need to be done so it's just incredibly inefficient if there's nobody running all those teams.Bill Godfrey:Okay, so common mistakes, we're going to rehash them. Not getting our dispatchers the training they need, number one on our list. Number two, failing to get control of this thing early and that's one that falls to law enforcement because they're the first ones in there. And then the number three item is staging, either not establishing staging, having more than one staging area, waiting too late to establish it. Tom, walk us through that reasons about why we need to have one staging area and then Steve and Robert I'm going to come to you guys to talk about how law enforcement can really benefit from using staging. But Tom, can you talk a little bit about why we need to have one staging area?Tom Billington:Definitely, Bill. Before I became involved in the active shooter realm, fire rescue we always had our own staging, we did our own thing, and this new active shooter realm that we live in today, it isn't just fire rescue it's fire rescue and law enforcement and other agencies together. And obviously staging is not just a place to park, it's a place to plan and to deploy resources. So it's important that we have all those resources in one staging area, meaning the law enforcement and fire and EMS folks are together so when we go to set up an RTF or rescue task force, we're all together and we have a law enforcement person doing staging that knows the law enforcement lingo, knows the qualifications of the personnel that are at staging. So it's a one team thing that we have to do together. Having separate staging would add so much time and confusion to the incident, it would be terrible.Bill Godfrey:So Steve, how important is it do you think for law enforcement to not just have one staging area but to be in the staging area with fire and EMS?Stephen Shaw:I think it's incredibly important. A lot of times you're law enforcement, you may know some individual fire fighters, you may know some individual truck teams or something like that at your location, but for something like this you may have people from outside, you don't know these people, you don't know what they have. And if you're paired up on an RTF with these people then you need to get introduced to them, you need to know that like Tom said we're on the same terminology, we're using the same language and all that. So it's extremely important and it even comes down to making sure that our own gear is squared away. It's difficult for me to pull up in my patrol car right in front of a scene and there's something going on, shots being fired or something like that, I have to get my own stuff squared away, my plate carrier, my rifle if I have one or whatever kind of other equipment I have, an active shooter kit or whatever the case may be. That staging area, once we get into the incident a little bit, maybe not when there's shots being fired, but that will help me get my own gear squared away so that I can deploy to that scene effectively.Robert McMahan:Yeah, we've talked a lot about RTFs in the training and I've literally seen, and I've been to three active shooter events at the schools, I've seen the medical side of RTF stood up in staging without a single cop to put with them. And there were hundreds of cops on scene, and so I think that's a tragedy because the RTF has got to get into there and start providing advanced medical treatment and getting people out to the hospital. But the other thing, and I mentioned hundreds of cops on scene, every one of these that I've been to we have an over convergence of law enforcement on these scenes, and I don't care who you are as fifth man, you can't control hundreds of cops by yourself and you can't control them after they're on scene running around doing things and they'll be in there doing things for a long, long time and you won't even realize what they're doing or who's there.And so the staging area is so incredibly important for us as law enforcement to embrace because it's going to help drive a successful incident, it's going to help take time off the clock and it's going to provide us resources to provide other functions that we need to do, rathe than try to figure out, "okay, which 50 cops can I pull out of there to go do this?" You have them at staging, you can make an assignments, assign a supervisor to them and just pass that off to someone to get done.Stephen Shaw:And with that over convergence of cops, like I was saying earlier, those cops are mostly going to be in cars by themselves and where do cops park? Wherever they want to. So now we have people that are bleeding out possible and we can't get ambulances in there to transport them out because we have police cars parked all over the place. That staging area allows us to consolidate vehicle, maybe if we're on RTF we just get on a fire truck and then we don't have to worry about all these vehicles that are everywhere. So we can open up parking, we can open up routes for ambulances, or we can open up routes for additional responders if we need to.Tom Billington:We're going to see, Robert just backing up a little bit, a big issue also with hundreds of law enforcement officers is accountability and I think staging is an important part for accountability especially for law enforcement. Fire rescue systems usually have good accountability systems where we can usually track down where the firefighter last was if there's an issue or they get lost, but if we have a lot of law enforcement officers down on the scene and we don't know who they are or where they are, we lose accountability, god forbid one of them is injured or killed, it may take forever to find them. Staging is a good point to start having accountability of sending teams knowing what frequencies they're going to be on, knowing where we sent them, and so we have a better way to account for them if something goes bad.Bill Godfrey:I think all of this is fantastic stuff. The other thing that it makes me think of is just the general function of staging is to get your crews assembled and assign them a task and purpose. Robert, you were kind of eluding to you need the guns downrange but you need them downrange doing what you needed done at the time you need it done, and if they've already gone downrange trying to get them to disengage and change tasks is difficult to do, especially if you don't even know they're downrange. So the key ingredient for staging and one of the reasons for having everybody together is some of these teams and things that need to be done are going to require cross-discipline integration, we got to put fire EMS with law enforcement, put some teams together and give them a task and purpose. Give them an assignment so when they go downrange they're working on what needs to be worked on when it needs to be worked on.Robert McMahan:That's correct.Bill Godfrey:Yeah, so I think that's a huge issue. So when we talk about staging, I think there's several actually sub-bullets under staging is one, we need to stop the over convergence because it just slows us down in the end, it takes us longer to get things done. We need to have a single staging area, not multiple staging areas by discipline, one staging area so that the crews can quickly be organized and then we have an effective method for assigning tasked purpose and sending those resources down range.So to recap us here on our five common mistakes, number one is failing to include our dispatchers in training and making sure that they're prepared to help us in one of these events. Number two is going to be getting quick control of this thing early on from the law enforcement side, so command and control, which we have obviously through the fifth man concept. And then our third one that we just talked about is staging, the importance of staging, the role that that plays.So number four is going to be having more than one command post. And it feels weird to even say that out loud, but it has happened so many times. Robert, let's start with you. What are some of the problems that crop up when you have more than one command post?Robert McMahan:Well, when you don't have fire and law enforcement hooked together, things start happening and you need the resources that the other one has or you need collaboration on what we're trying to accomplish downrange with both disciplines. And when you don't have them together, you can't do that. And I was involved in a shooting event where an officer was killed, he was missing for a while, and we didn't have law enforcement and fire together in the command post, and when we got the officer rescued, those medical resources weren't available immediately as quickly as they should have been at that point because we weren't working together. And we can't have that, that's just inexcusable. It's inexcusable on both sides. And so especially in a complex event like this where you've got a lot of patients and you got both disciplines working together to accomplish certain things like rescue task forces, you got to have them together or passing information about patient counts, where ambulance exchange points are, it's a multi-discipline event that requires the marriage of those disciplines to work together to get this done.Tom Billington:You know Robert, I've been on many scenes. I was actually on a scene where there was four separate command posts and it turned out that they were just meeting places for people that knew each other to drink coffee and it's really unfortunate. And so it's so important to get the folks together in the one command post or at the command post location to work together, because that's another issue. I've been in the command post with other agencies, other fire agencies and they were doing something opposite of what I was doing, which was my fault to. And so again, it's not just a room that's air conditioned that has coffee, it's a workplace whereas a team we need to put our heads together and come up with the priorities of what we're going to do down on the field. It's just so easy to get caught in your silo if you're in a separate facility, but also when you're together it's also easy to stay in your group at the corner and not work amongst each other. So it's important that we pull these issues out ahead of time and work together in these command posts.Robert McMahan:I can also tell you where it works well, it really works well. I had a fire chief in Castle Rock Colorado, Noris Croom, I'll just shout out to him, we worked really well together. When Noris and I showed up on a scene, we knew how to work together, we had that relationship and we developed that relationship prior to the incident, by the way. But we married ourselves at the hip and whatever we were working I would as Noris what he needs, he would ask me what I need and we had that working relationship and it was just amazing the difference when you have that relationship and you have that marriage of disciplines together.Tom Billington:Well, the big thing is, you just said his name, that says it all right there. When you know the person beforehand on a first name basis, the command post and command operation will go so much smoother, so it's so important, good point Robert.Stephen Shaw:One thing that I've actually seen this happen on two different incidents that we had, law enforcement will set up a command post like 50 yards away from the incident and the fire, they're just not comfortable with that. And this is like a shots fired incident. So we have to be careful as law enforcement that when we're establishing our command post that it's not right up on the scene. Because this happened on both of the incidents that I saw, fire pulled up, asked dispatch, "Where's the command post," dispatch told them, fire gets there, looks at it, says, "No way, Jose." And they backed up a block down the street and they just started running their own thing. So we had separate command posts that were trying to work together but they just weren't in the same location. And what happens is, communication becomes almost impossible. You're trying to call people On the phone or trying to call people on the radio where there's a million other things going on and if you're not right there together shoulder to shoulder where I can just tap my fire counterpart on the shoulder and say, "Hey, this is what we need," like I said it just gets almost impossible.Robert McMahan:You know, we've seen sadly a number of very significant consequential active shooter events where they ended up, for one reason or another, with separate command posts, whether it was just the way the scene unfolded, the order in which it got done, and they didn't fix it. And I think that's one of the things that almost ought to be a mistake of its own. Look, some of these things are going to happen, you're going to end up with more than one staging area by accident, okay fine, fix it. You're going to end up with somebody who set up, the battalion chief calls up the command post because he didn't like where the law enforcement was. Okay, fine, fix it. Get into one command post. Mistakes happen, that's the nature of the beast, it's what you do with it. Don't let that go on. Just because you've started there, doesn't mean you need to finish there. We talked about this just recently in another podcast, the pain of fixing the problem as soon as you recognize it is nothing compared to the pain of trying to suck it up and continue to make that mistake work.And I think that's a big one that really needs to be a strong take away here is, you need one command post for all the reasons that everybody here just talked about. And if for whatever reason it doesn't start that way, fix it.Stephen Shaw:And to kind of circle back to one of our other issues when we were talking about gaining control early with that tactical position, if I'm a law enforcement incident commander, and I realize that maybe I'm in the wrong location or just for whatever reason my fire people have set up a command post in another location, it's a lot easier for me to tear myself away from that incident for five minutes to drive down the street to meet up with them if I have somebody I trust, like Robert was saying, that's downrange that has eyes on it that can run that scene for the few minutes while I'm gone. So I think that's where getting control early and trusting your people and equipping them becomes super important. Like you were saying Bill, if we realize we're making a mistake, it's a lot easier to fix when we have people who can fill those holes for us.Bill Godfrey:Yeah, that kind of makes me wonder Steve and Robert, the situation Steven was just talking about where the command post ends up set up across the street from a shots fired scenario, is part of that happening because in those cases they're not delineating the role of tactical as being separate from the role of command? And the command post is actually really more the tactical?Stephen Shaw:I think that's part of it. It's not a new concept, like Robert was saying we use this all the time in the SWAT world, but a lot of time when somebody starts directing traffic, for lack of a better word, they essentially become the defacto incident commander in law enforcement's mind. We have trouble delineating that there's two different things. You can think of tactical as a forward operation, we're running contact teams, whereas a command post is more of a high level, big picture controlling, kind of a cliched term, but this 30 thousand foot view that we refer to a lot of times.The other thing I think is we in law enforcement when it comes to things like shots fired or something like that, we have a different level of risk acceptance than fire does and it's because we deal with it a lot more. And it would be exactly inverse if we were dealing with a structure fire. Firefighters are way more equipped to deal with that and have way more knowledge and experience to deal with that, whereas we may be, I don't want to go there, firefighter may be telling us, "Oh no, it's fine. Look at the level of smoke," or whatever. So I think for us, we look at it and we say, "We're down the street, bullets are probably not going to get here." It's just a different mindset I think.Robert McMahan:Yeah, I agree. And the big problem, like you were eluding to Bill, is command typically tries to do things that are, they're trying to direct tactical operations and they really shouldn't be doing that. They're getting too far down in the weeds and they're not looking at the big picture and how to support the incident and how to support the resources own range.Stephen Shaw:Law enforcement is not used to trying to manage an incident that they can't see with their own eyes. And it's difficult to not like Robert's saying, and the reason why is because you're trying to direct every single little thing and it's hard to do that when you can't see it and it's just something that we have to tear ourselves away from there and think there's other stuff going on that we have to focus on. We got to leave somebody else in charge of this stuff, they can see it, they can run all this little stuff, I need to think about the big picture.Bill Godfrey:You know, that's really not dissimilar from the fire service and the fire service experience. I don't know what the number is, but it's well over 90% of the fire service operations are run in a single tier, the battalion chief is directing everything, whoever the incident commander is, directing everything from the curb where they can lay eyes on it. The number of times that you're actually running a fire operation where you cannot see the incident and you can't see what's going on are very few and far between. And while there are a number of people in the fire service who have experience doing that and are quite good at it, they're the exception, not the rule. The bulk of the time it's very, very similar, so I think that's something we actually share across the cultures between law enforcement and fire/EMS, is that pull to be watching the thing, to be up close enough to see it.Tom Billington:I think what Bill said earlier needs to be said again, fixing things, it's so important. I remember as a young firefighter/paramedic, we had a warehouse fire and it went on for hours and we had messed up, there was firetrucks parked in the wrong place, there was hose everywhere. And one of our district chiefs showed up, one of my mentors, and he said, "All right, this isn't going to be pretty, let's shut it down and move everything, do this, do that." And we did it. And while we were doing that the fire reared up again. Once he got us in order of where we needed to be, we put the fire out. And it was a hard decision, a lot of people were saying, "This is crazy, look what's going to happen." So Bill, that's such a good point, it really takes a strong leader to say, "Okay, we agree, we screwed up, let's fix it," and then do it.Bill Godfrey:I think that's a great point, great point. Okay, so let's recap where we're at. Our list of five common mistakes. Number one is failing to get dispatchers the training that they need to be able to help us in an active shooter event. Number two, getting control of the event early, which is predominantly going to fall to law enforcement, just the nature of the beast. Number three, staging. Not getting staging set up, not having one location and avoiding the over convergence. Number four, separate command posts.And then our final one, number five, is failing to shift gears when our priorities need to change. So as we set this one up, I'll just remind everybody the priority is, number one the active threat, number two is rescue of the injured, and number three is clearing and return the scene to a time of safety. So active threat, rescue, then clear. But what we see sometimes, law enforcement can have a difficult time shifting gears and moving from the active threat to rescue when there's a question mark about the bad guy. So when the bad guy is neutralized, in custody, down, whatever the case may be, those are usually pretty clean transitions, not really where the problems occur. But when the shooting stops and we don't know why. Did the guy kill himself? Has he left the scene? Is he still on the scene? Is he still at large? We don't have answers to those, there's no closure to it. That seems to me to be one where law enforcement struggles a little bit because the tendency is, "I got to find the bad guy, I got to find the bad guy, I got to find the bad guy." And we can lose valuable time and minutes in shifting gears. Robert, is my perception off there that that's a challenge?Robert McMahan:No, that is a challenge. And it's difficult for us because we want to go stop that threat and so much of our training, especially early on is we're always looking for the next bad guy, that there's going to be one more, there's going to be one more, there's going to be one more. But remember what drives us during dealing with the active threat is stimulus. What are we after here? Where are we going? What's driving us? And when we run out of that stimulus it's hard to shift gears. But we also have to remember we've got another mission and that's rescue. We're battling the clock, not just the bad guy. And we've got to shift gears in order to start dealing with patients and start to help them. I think part of what happens with it is we don't have control of it early on like we talked about it earlier, and there's no one there to say, "Okay, let's shift gears." It's okay to keep looking for the bad guy, but we also have some areas that we've already been into that we know that we have patients.So we can start organizing those contact teams and their roles a little bit better and say, "Okay, contact one you've got this area. You've got patients there, secure that area and let's start working patients there. Contact two, you don't have any patients, so keep searching for the bad guy. You can organize this thing and control it in a way that helps us shift gears and helps us with that change in response when the stimulus goes away.Stephen Shaw:Yeah, I agree with what Robert's saying about having somebody there to drive that shift. I think under stress, people are going to do what they're most comfortable doing and cops are most comfortable hunting a bad guy. We're not as comfortable treating patients or counting patients or really if the one thing that we pretty much probably have in common is every mission is important. It may be extremely important for me to hold a stairwell, but for me and my cop mentality, if I feel like there's a bad guy out there and somebody tells me to hold a stairwell, that's going to be a tough pill to swallow.There was a debriefing that I went to a couple weeks ago about an incident that happened a couple years ago out on the West Coast where actually they had two officers that were killed on a traffic stop. And the incident commander there had just gotten promoted out of investigations, and really, really recently gotten promoted out of investigations. And so under stress she did was she was comfortable doing, which was investigating the scene. She started canvasing the neighborhood and stuff like that rather than searching for the shooter. So I think that's one thing that if we have that tactical person there when we have a pause, shooting has stopped, we're not sure why, we have a pause, there's got to be somebody there to say, and this again tying it back to staging where we know who's there, we don't have an over convergence, we have somebody there to say, "Hey, contact team three, I need you to stop searching and I need you to start securing an area so that we can start counting patients or we can start bringing RTFs in."It's really important, and like I said just under stress people resort back to what they know. Cops don't know treating people for the most part, now there's a lot of departments that have started offering that training and what not and I think you're seeing some good results from that. But for the most part, we're just not comfortable doing that, we're comfortable hunting a bad guy and that's what we're going to resort to if there's nothing to drive us into another priority.Bill Godfrey:I think that's true. And Tom, chime in here as I say this, but from a medical side, so when you look at the statistics on the data of these active shooter events, the median number of people shot in these things is four, two of which are killed. So the typical active shooter event, we're actually talking about a small number of patients and occasionally it can go over that and occasionally it goes way over that. But those are the exceptions, not the rule, you're usually talking about a small number of patients. And I kind of feel like if we can just get one contact team that focuses on getting the casualty collection point set up or just whatever needs to happen, whatever that contact team stuff is that goes on, whatever they need to do to get it ready to receive the RTFs, then the RTFs, can push in with their security and take care of that. Tom, do you see the same thing?Tom Billington:Most definitely. And I think again that comes with training. Many times in these classes I'll talk to a law enforcement officer and I'll go, "How many tourniquets do you carry?" And he goes, "Well, I carry one." And I go, "What's that for?" He goes, "My partner or me." And I go, "Well what about somebody that's injured." "Well, no." Again it's just training that while maybe you have the opportunity to save a life and if it's just one or two people, the contact team that focuses on that can make the difference between life and death, that one small point.And again, getting the RTF in there as soon as possible, we're waiting on the contact team to tell us it's safe, to tell us that that yes they have a casualty collection point. So we want to get in there soon. The sooner that the contact team does that for us, again we're cutting time off the clock.Bill Godfrey:So I want to ask, Steve, Robert. One of the things that we advocate when we're doing our training and we kind of tell people this, is that, "Hey, when you go back home and you're doing this training, make sure that your scenarios include one where the bad guy just goes South. The active threat is a ghost and you don't know why." To force during training people to face that and deal with that and get that muscle memory of, "Okay, I haven't had anything else go on for, fill in the blank, and it's time for us to shift gears or start thinking about doing something different." How important do think guys that actually is in the law enforcement training?Robert McMahan:I think it's hugely important. And I've conducted some of these trainings with you and I see these guys in training really have a hard time slowing down looking for that bad guy when that threat's gone silent. And they really want to keep looking. But it's not serving the purpose. And here's the thing, if that bad guy's doing other stuff in other areas, we'll know it, we'll receive that driving force information whether it's hearing the shots or more calls to 911.Bill Godfrey:Yeah, more witnesses calling 911.Robert McMahan:We will know as soon as that starts, and then we can go respond to it. But in the interim, and I think most events don't go that way, if the bad guy goes silent they're gone, they've gone silent for a reason and they're usually not a threat anymore, but in the interim until we figure out where they went, we do have patients to take care of and we're against that clock. And we say it over and over and over again in this training and in the podcast, we're up against that clock and we're about saving lives.Stephen Shaw:The training side of it is hugely important. Again like I said, people revert back to what they know and what we're really talking about is the evolution of active shooter response. Pre '99, active shooters were a SWAT problem and then Columbine happened and for 10 or 15 years it was all about pushing patrol to get in there and address the bad guy. And we got really, really good at getting in there and addressing the bad guy.Now we're seeing the evolution shift to, all right we're addressing the bad guy but there's all these other things that have to happen and the first thing that has to happen after addressing the bad guy is addressing all the people that the bad guy's hurt. Because we talk about our victims and our survivors having two different enemies during this event, and one is the bad guy and the other one is the clock. And the first ones that are in there are going to be police, so their first medical intervention a lot of times is going to be a patrol officer, and it could be just a patrol officer securing a room and getting a number to someone so that an RTF can come in and maybe like Tom was saying having an extra tourniquet on you. Maybe having a few extra bandages or something like that. But something has to be done, some sort of medical intervention to help to stop that clock or to slow it down.And so I think again like I said, we're participating in the evolution of the response here from SWAT to patrol and now we're looking at the medical side. And so I think the training side of it you have to enforce those principles, you have to enforce that thought process that just because we're not hearing shots, there's still something I can do rather than just make a room entry.Bill Godfrey:I think that's a fantastic summary. So guys, I'm going to wrap this up with just summarizing our list of the five common mistakes. Number one is failing to get dispatchers the training they need so they can help us. Number two is for law enforcement to get control early on via the fifth man or some other type of method if they don't like that one, but get control of this thing earlier. Number three, staging, one staging area to stop the over convergence, make sure we got a task and purpose to get people organized. Number four, having separate command posts, can't have that, need to fix it. And number five, failing to make sure that we include in training the training for officers to recognize when they need to shift gears from the threat to rescue and not skipping over rescue to jump right into the clear.Gentlemen, thank you so much for taking the time to talk about this, again these are not the only mistakes that we see by far, but these are five common ones and I thank you for coming together to talk about it.Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening to the podcast, if you have not subscribed please hit the subscribe button to make sure that you don't miss out on any future podcasts. And if you have any suggestions for topics, send them to us. Info@c3pathways.com. Until next time, stay safe.

Sorry No normal episode this week. Instead a 4 chapter preview of the sister podcast located at Podserve.fm/w/goodnightpod If you want to read along you can do so below. CHAPTER I. Down the Rabbit-Hole Alice was beginning to get very tired of sitting by her sister on the bank, and of having nothing to do: once or twice she had peeped into the book her sister was reading, but it had no pictures or conversations in it, “and what is the use of a book,” thought Alice “without pictures or conversations?” So she was considering in her own mind (as well as she could, for the hot day made her feel very sleepy and stupid), whether the pleasure of making a daisy-chain would be worth the trouble of getting up and picking the daisies, when suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by her. There was nothing so very remarkable in that; nor did Alice think it so very much out of the way to hear the Rabbit say to itself, “Oh dear! Oh dear! I shall be late!” (when she thought it over afterwards, it occurred to her that she ought to have wondered at this, but at the time it all seemed quite natural); but when the Rabbit actually took a watch out of its waistcoat-pocket, and looked at it, and then hurried on, Alice started to her feet, for it flashed across her mind that she had never before seen a rabbit with either a waistcoat-pocket, or a watch to take out of it, and burning with curiosity, she ran across the field after it, and fortunately was just in time to see it pop down a large rabbit-hole under the hedge. In another moment down went Alice after it, never once considering how in the world she was to get out again. The rabbit-hole went straight on like a tunnel for some way, and then dipped suddenly down, so suddenly that Alice had not a moment to think about stopping herself before she found herself falling down a very deep well. Either the well was very deep, or she fell very slowly, for she had plenty of time as she went down to look about her and to wonder what was going to happen next. First, she tried to look down and make out what she was coming to, but it was too dark to see anything; then she looked at the sides of the well, and noticed that they were filled with cupboards and book-shelves; here and there she saw maps and pictures hung upon pegs. She took down a jar from one of the shelves as she passed; it was labelled “ORANGE MARMALADE”, but to her great disappointment it was empty: she did not like to drop the jar for fear of killing somebody underneath, so managed to put it into one of the cupboards as she fell past it. “Well!” thought Alice to herself, “after such a fall as this, I shall think nothing of tumbling down stairs! How brave they'll all think me at home! Why, I wouldn't say anything about it, even if I fell off the top of the house!” (Which was very likely true.) Down, down, down. Would the fall never come to an end? “I wonder how many miles I've fallen by this time?” she said aloud. “I must be getting somewhere near the centre of the earth. Let me see: that would be four thousand miles down, I think—” (for, you see, Alice had learnt several things of this sort in her lessons in the schoolroom, and though this was not a very good opportunity for showing off her knowledge, as there was no one to listen to her, still it was good practice to say it over) “—yes, that's about the right distance—but then I wonder what Latitude or Longitude I've got to?” (Alice had no idea what Latitude was, or Longitude either, but thought they were nice grand words to say.) Presently she began again. “I wonder if I shall fall right through the earth! How funny it'll seem to come out among the people that walk with their heads downward! The Antipathies, I think—” (she was rather glad there was no one listening, this time, as it didn't sound at all the right word) “—but I shall have to ask them what the name of the country is, you know. Please, Ma'am, is this New Zealand or Australia?” (and she tried to curtsey as she spoke—fancy curtseying as you're falling through the air! Do you think you could manage it?) “And what an ignorant little girl she'll think me for asking! No, it'll never do to ask: perhaps I shall see it written up somewhere.” Down, down, down. There was nothing else to do, so Alice soon began talking again. “Dinah'll miss me very much to-night, I should think!” (Dinah was the cat.) “I hope they'll remember her saucer of milk at tea-time. Dinah my dear! I wish you were down here with me! There are no mice in the air, I'm afraid, but you might catch a bat, and that's very like a mouse, you know. But do cats eat bats, I wonder?” And here Alice began to get rather sleepy, and went on saying to herself, in a dreamy sort of way, “Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats?” and sometimes, “Do bats eat cats?” for, you see, as she couldn't answer either question, it didn't much matter which way she put it. She felt that she was dozing off, and had just begun to dream that she was walking hand in hand with Dinah, and saying to her very earnestly, “Now, Dinah, tell me the truth: did you ever eat a bat?” when suddenly, thump! thump! down she came upon a heap of sticks and dry leaves, and the fall was over. Alice was not a bit hurt, and she jumped up on to her feet in a moment: she looked up, but it was all dark overhead; before her was another long passage, and the White Rabbit was still in sight, hurrying down it. There was not a moment to be lost: away went Alice like the wind, and was just in time to hear it say, as it turned a corner, “Oh my ears and whiskers, how late it's getting!” She was close behind it when she turned the corner, but the Rabbit was no longer to be seen: she found herself in a long, low hall, which was lit up by a row of lamps hanging from the roof. There were doors all round the hall, but they were all locked; and when Alice had been all the way down one side and up the other, trying every door, she walked sadly down the middle, wondering how she was ever to get out again. Suddenly she came upon a little three-legged table, all made of solid glass; there was nothing on it except a tiny golden key, and Alice's first thought was that it might belong to one of the doors of the hall; but, alas! either the locks were too large, or the key was too small, but at any rate it would not open any of them. However, on the second time round, she came upon a low curtain she had not noticed before, and behind it was a little door about fifteen inches high: she tried the little golden key in the lock, and to her great delight it fitted! Alice opened the door and found that it led into a small passage, not much larger than a rat-hole: she knelt down and looked along the passage into the loveliest garden you ever saw. How she longed to get out of that dark hall, and wander about among those beds of bright flowers and those cool fountains, but she could not even get her head through the doorway; “and even if my head would go through,” thought poor Alice, “it would be of very little use without my shoulders. Oh, how I wish I could shut up like a telescope! I think I could, if I only knew how to begin.” For, you see, so many out-of-the-way things had happened lately, that Alice had begun to think that very few things indeed were really impossible. There seemed to be no use in waiting by the little door, so she went back to the table, half hoping she might find another key on it, or at any rate a book of rules for shutting people up like telescopes: this time she found a little bottle on it, (“which certainly was not here before,” said Alice,) and round the neck of the bottle was a paper label, with the words “DRINK ME,” beautifully printed on it in large letters. It was all very well to say “Drink me,” but the wise little Alice was not going to do that in a hurry. “No, I'll look first,” she said, “and see whether it's marked ‘poison' or not”; for she had read several nice little histories about children who had got burnt, and eaten up by wild beasts and other unpleasant things, all because they would not remember the simple rules their friends had taught them: such as, that a red-hot poker will burn you if you hold it too long; and that if you cut your finger very deeply with a knife, it usually bleeds; and she had never forgotten that, if you drink much from a bottle marked “poison,” it is almost certain to disagree with you, sooner or later. However, this bottle was not marked “poison,” so Alice ventured to taste it, and finding it very nice, (it had, in fact, a sort of mixed flavour of cherry-tart, custard, pine-apple, roast turkey, toffee, and hot buttered toast,) she very soon finished it off. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * “What a curious feeling!” said Alice; “I must be shutting up like a telescope.” And so it was indeed: she was now only ten inches high, and her face brightened up at the thought that she was now the right size for going through the little door into that lovely garden. First, however, she waited for a few minutes to see if she was going to shrink any further: she felt a little nervous about this; “for it might end, you know,” said Alice to herself, “in my going out altogether, like a candle. I wonder what I should be like then?” And she tried to fancy what the flame of a candle is like after the candle is blown out, for she could not remember ever having seen such a thing. After a while, finding that nothing more happened, she decided on going into the garden at once; but, alas for poor Alice! when she got to the door, she found she had forgotten the little golden key, and when she went back to the table for it, she found she could not possibly reach it: she could see it quite plainly through the glass, and she tried her best to climb up one of the legs of the table, but it was too slippery; and when she had tired herself out with trying, the poor little thing sat down and cried. “Come, there's no use in crying like that!” said Alice to herself, rather sharply; “I advise you to leave off this minute!” She generally gave herself very good advice, (though she very seldom followed it), and sometimes she scolded herself so severely as to bring tears into her eyes; and once she remembered trying to box her own ears for having cheated herself in a game of croquet she was playing against herself, for this curious child was very fond of pretending to be two people. “But it's no use now,” thought poor Alice, “to pretend to be two people! Why, there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person!” Soon her eye fell on a little glass box that was lying under the table: she opened it, and found in it a very small cake, on which the words “EAT ME” were beautifully marked in currants. “Well, I'll eat it,” said Alice, “and if it makes me grow larger, I can reach the key; and if it makes me grow smaller, I can creep under the door; so either way I'll get into the garden, and I don't care which happens!” She ate a little bit, and said anxiously to herself, “Which way? Which way?”, holding her hand on the top of her head to feel which way it was growing, and she was quite surprised to find that she remained the same size: to be sure, this generally happens when one eats cake, but Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way. So she set to work, and very soon finished off the cake. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * CHAPTER II. The Pool of Tears “Curiouser and curiouser!” cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English); “now I'm opening out like the largest telescope that ever was! Good-bye, feet!” (for when she looked down at her feet, they seemed to be almost out of sight, they were getting so far off). “Oh, my poor little feet, I wonder who will put on your shoes and stockings for you now, dears? I'm sure I shan't be able! I shall be a great deal too far off to trouble myself about you: you must manage the best way you can;—but I must be kind to them,” thought Alice, “or perhaps they won't walk the way I want to go! Let me see: I'll give them a new pair of boots every Christmas.” And she went on planning to herself how she would manage it. “They must go by the carrier,” she thought; “and how funny it'll seem, sending presents to one's own feet! And how odd the directions will look! Alice's Right Foot, Esq., Hearthrug, near the Fender, (with Alice's love). Oh dear, what nonsense I'm talking!” Just then her head struck against the roof of the hall: in fact she was now more than nine feet high, and she at once took up the little golden key and hurried off to the garden door. Poor Alice! It was as much as she could do, lying down on one side, to look through into the garden with one eye; but to get through was more hopeless than ever: she sat down and began to cry again. “You ought to be ashamed of yourself,” said Alice, “a great girl like you,” (she might well say this), “to go on crying in this way! Stop this moment, I tell you!” But she went on all the same, shedding gallons of tears, until there was a large pool all round her, about four inches deep and reaching half down the hall. After a time she heard a little pattering of feet in the distance, and she hastily dried her eyes to see what was coming. It was the White Rabbit returning, splendidly dressed, with a pair of white kid gloves in one hand and a large fan in the other: he came trotting along in a great hurry, muttering to himself as he came, “Oh! the Duchess, the Duchess! Oh! won't she be savage if I've kept her waiting!” Alice felt so desperate that she was ready to ask help of any one; so, when the Rabbit came near her, she began, in a low, timid voice, “If you please, sir—” The Rabbit started violently, dropped the white kid gloves and the fan, and skurried away into the darkness as hard as he could go. Alice took up the fan and gloves, and, as the hall was very hot, she kept fanning herself all the time she went on talking: “Dear, dear! How queer everything is to-day! And yesterday things went on just as usual. I wonder if I've been changed in the night? Let me think: was I the same when I got up this morning? I almost think I can remember feeling a little different. But if I'm not the same, the next question is, Who in the world am I? Ah, that's the great puzzle!” And she began thinking over all the children she knew that were of the same age as herself, to see if she could have been changed for any of them. “I'm sure I'm not Ada,” she said, “for her hair goes in such long ringlets, and mine doesn't go in ringlets at all; and I'm sure I can't be Mabel, for I know all sorts of things, and she, oh! she knows such a very little! Besides, she's she, and I'm I, and—oh dear, how puzzling it all is! I'll try if I know all the things I used to know. Let me see: four times five is twelve, and four times six is thirteen, and four times seven is—oh dear! I shall never get to twenty at that rate! However, the Multiplication Table doesn't signify: let's try Geography. London is the capital of Paris, and Paris is the capital of Rome, and Rome—no, that's all wrong, I'm certain! I must have been changed for Mabel! I'll try and say ‘How doth the little—'” and she crossed her hands on her lap as if she were saying lessons, and began to repeat it, but her voice sounded hoarse and strange, and the words did not come the same as they used to do:— “How doth the little crocodile Improve his shining tail, And pour the waters of the Nile On every golden scale! “How cheerfully he seems to grin, How neatly spread his claws, And welcome little fishes in With gently smiling jaws!” “I'm sure those are not the right words,” said poor Alice, and her eyes filled with tears again as she went on, “I must be Mabel after all, and I shall have to go and live in that poky little house, and have next to no toys to play with, and oh! ever so many lessons to learn! No, I've made up my mind about it; if I'm Mabel, I'll stay down here! It'll be no use their putting their heads down and saying ‘Come up again, dear!' I shall only look up and say ‘Who am I then? Tell me that first, and then, if I like being that person, I'll come up: if not, I'll stay down here till I'm somebody else'—but, oh dear!” cried Alice, with a sudden burst of tears, “I do wish they would put their heads down! I am so very tired of being all alone here!” As she said this she looked down at her hands, and was surprised to see that she had put on one of the Rabbit's little white kid gloves while she was talking. “How can I have done that?” she thought. “I must be growing small again.” She got up and went to the table to measure herself by it, and found that, as nearly as she could guess, she was now about two feet high, and was going on shrinking rapidly: she soon found out that the cause of this was the fan she was holding, and she dropped it hastily, just in time to avoid shrinking away altogether. “That was a narrow escape!” said Alice, a good deal frightened at the sudden change, but very glad to find herself still in existence; “and now for the garden!” and she ran with all speed back to the little door: but, alas! the little door was shut again, and the little golden key was lying on the glass table as before, “and things are worse than ever,” thought the poor child, “for I never was so small as this before, never! And I declare it's too bad, that it is!” As she said these words her foot slipped, and in another moment, splash! she was up to her chin in salt water. Her first idea was that she had somehow fallen into the sea, “and in that case I can go back by railway,” she said to herself. (Alice had been to the seaside once in her life, and had come to the general conclusion, that wherever you go to on the English coast you find a number of bathing machines in the sea, some children digging in the sand with wooden spades, then a row of lodging houses, and behind them a railway station.) However, she soon made out that she was in the pool of tears which she had wept when she was nine feet high. “I wish I hadn't cried so much!” said Alice, as she swam about, trying to find her way out. “I shall be punished for it now, I suppose, by being drowned in my own tears! That will be a queer thing, to be sure! However, everything is queer to-day.” Just then she heard something splashing about in the pool a little way off, and she swam nearer to make out what it was: at first she thought it must be a walrus or hippopotamus, but then she remembered how small she was now, and she soon made out that it was only a mouse that had slipped in like herself. “Would it be of any use, now,” thought Alice, “to speak to this mouse? Everything is so out-of-the-way down here, that I should think very likely it can talk: at any rate, there's no harm in trying.” So she began: “O Mouse, do you know the way out of this pool? I am very tired of swimming about here, O Mouse!” (Alice thought this must be the right way of speaking to a mouse: she had never done such a thing before, but she remembered having seen in her brother's Latin Grammar, “A mouse—of a mouse—to a mouse—a mouse—O mouse!”) The Mouse looked at her rather inquisitively, and seemed to her to wink with one of its little eyes, but it said nothing. “Perhaps it doesn't understand English,” thought Alice; “I daresay it's a French mouse, come over with William the Conqueror.” (For, with all her knowledge of history, Alice had no very clear notion how long ago anything had happened.) So she began again: “Où est ma chatte?” which was the first sentence in her French lesson-book. The Mouse gave a sudden leap out of the water, and seemed to quiver all over with fright. “Oh, I beg your pardon!” cried Alice hastily, afraid that she had hurt the poor animal's feelings. “I quite forgot you didn't like cats.” “Not like cats!” cried the Mouse, in a shrill, passionate voice. “Would you like cats if you were me?” “Well, perhaps not,” said Alice in a soothing tone: “don't be angry about it. And yet I wish I could show you our cat Dinah: I think you'd take a fancy to cats if you could only see her. She is such a dear quiet thing,” Alice went on, half to herself, as she swam lazily about in the pool, “and she sits purring so nicely by the fire, licking her paws and washing her face—and she is such a nice soft thing to nurse—and she's such a capital one for catching mice—oh, I beg your pardon!” cried Alice again, for this time the Mouse was bristling all over, and she felt certain it must be really offended. “We won't talk about her any more if you'd rather not.” “We indeed!” cried the Mouse, who was trembling down to the end of his tail. “As if I would talk on such a subject! Our family always hated cats: nasty, low, vulgar things! Don't let me hear the name again!” “I won't indeed!” said Alice, in a great hurry to change the subject of conversation. “Are you—are you fond—of—of dogs?” The Mouse did not answer, so Alice went on eagerly: “There is such a nice little dog near our house I should like to show you! A little bright-eyed terrier, you know, with oh, such long curly brown hair! And it'll fetch things when you throw them, and it'll sit up and beg for its dinner, and all sorts of things—I can't remember half of them—and it belongs to a farmer, you know, and he says it's so useful, it's worth a hundred pounds! He says it kills all the rats and—oh dear!” cried Alice in a sorrowful tone, “I'm afraid I've offended it again!” For the Mouse was swimming away from her as hard as it could go, and making quite a commotion in the pool as it went. So she called softly after it, “Mouse dear! Do come back again, and we won't talk about cats or dogs either, if you don't like them!” When the Mouse heard this, it turned round and swam slowly back to her: its face was quite pale (with passion, Alice thought), and it said in a low trembling voice, “Let us get to the shore, and then I'll tell you my history, and you'll understand why it is I hate cats and dogs.” It was high time to go, for the pool was getting quite crowded with the birds and animals that had fallen into it: there were a Duck and a Dodo, a Lory and an Eaglet, and several other curious creatures. Alice led the way, and the whole party swam to the shore. CHAPTER III. A Caucus-Race and a Long Tale They were indeed a queer-looking party that assembled on the bank—the birds with draggled feathers, the animals with their fur clinging close to them, and all dripping wet, cross, and uncomfortable. The first question of course was, how to get dry again: they had a consultation about this, and after a few minutes it seemed quite natural to Alice to find herself talking familiarly with them, as if she had known them all her life. Indeed, she had quite a long argument with the Lory, who at last turned sulky, and would only say, “I am older than you, and must know better;” and this Alice would not allow without knowing how old it was, and, as the Lory positively refused to tell its age, there was no more to be said. At last the Mouse, who seemed to be a person of authority among them, called out, “Sit down, all of you, and listen to me! I'll soon make you dry enough!” They all sat down at once, in a large ring, with the Mouse in the middle. Alice kept her eyes anxiously fixed on it, for she felt sure she would catch a bad cold if she did not get dry very soon. “Ahem!” said the Mouse with an important air, “are you all ready? This is the driest thing I know. Silence all round, if you please! ‘William the Conqueror, whose cause was favoured by the pope, was soon submitted to by the English, who wanted leaders, and had been of late much accustomed to usurpation and conquest. Edwin and Morcar, the earls of Mercia and Northumbria—'” “Ugh!” said the Lory, with a shiver. “I beg your pardon!” said the Mouse, frowning, but very politely: “Did you speak?” “Not I!” said the Lory hastily. “I thought you did,” said the Mouse. “—I proceed. ‘Edwin and Morcar, the earls of Mercia and Northumbria, declared for him: and even Stigand, the patriotic archbishop of Canterbury, found it advisable—'” “Found what?” said the Duck. “Found it,” the Mouse replied rather crossly: “of course you know what ‘it' means.” “I know what ‘it' means well enough, when I find a thing,” said the Duck: “it's generally a frog or a worm. The question is, what did the archbishop find?” The Mouse did not notice this question, but hurriedly went on, “‘—found it advisable to go with Edgar Atheling to meet William and offer him the crown. William's conduct at first was moderate. But the insolence of his Normans—' How are you getting on now, my dear?” it continued, turning to Alice as it spoke. “As wet as ever,” said Alice in a melancholy tone: “it doesn't seem to dry me at all.” “In that case,” said the Dodo solemnly, rising to its feet, “I move that the meeting adjourn, for the immediate adoption of more energetic remedies—” “Speak English!” said the Eaglet. “I don't know the meaning of half those long words, and, what's more, I don't believe you do either!” And the Eaglet bent down its head to hide a smile: some of the other birds tittered audibly. “What I was going to say,” said the Dodo in an offended tone, “was, that the best thing to get us dry would be a Caucus-race.” “What is a Caucus-race?” said Alice; not that she wanted much to know, but the Dodo had paused as if it thought that somebody ought to speak, and no one else seemed inclined to say anything. “Why,” said the Dodo, “the best way to explain it is to do it.” (And, as you might like to try the thing yourself, some winter day, I will tell you how the Dodo managed it.) First it marked out a race-course, in a sort of circle, (“the exact shape doesn't matter,” it said,) and then all the party were placed along the course, here and there. There was no “One, two, three, and away,” but they began running when they liked, and left off when they liked, so that it was not easy to know when the race was over. However, when they had been running half an hour or so, and were quite dry again, the Dodo suddenly called out “The race is over!” and they all crowded round it, panting, and asking, “But who has won?” This question the Dodo could not answer without a great deal of thought, and it sat for a long time with one finger pressed upon its forehead (the position in which you usually see Shakespeare, in the pictures of him), while the rest waited in silence. At last the Dodo said, “Everybody has won, and all must have prizes.” “But who is to give the prizes?” quite a chorus of voices asked. “Why, she, of course,” said the Dodo, pointing to Alice with one finger; and the whole party at once crowded round her, calling out in a confused way, “Prizes! Prizes!” Alice had no idea what to do, and in despair she put her hand in her pocket, and pulled out a box of comfits, (luckily the salt water had not got into it), and handed them round as prizes. There was exactly one a-piece, all round. “But she must have a prize herself, you know,” said the Mouse. “Of course,” the Dodo replied very gravely. “What else have you got in your pocket?” he went on, turning to Alice. “Only a thimble,” said Alice sadly. “Hand it over here,” said the Dodo. Then they all crowded round her once more, while the Dodo solemnly presented the thimble, saying “We beg your acceptance of this elegant thimble;” and, when it had finished this short speech, they all cheered. Alice thought the whole thing very absurd, but they all looked so grave that she did not dare to laugh; and, as she could not think of anything to say, she simply bowed, and took the thimble, looking as solemn as she could. The next thing was to eat the comfits: this caused some noise and confusion, as the large birds complained that they could not taste theirs, and the small ones choked and had to be patted on the back. However, it was over at last, and they sat down again in a ring, and begged the Mouse to tell them something more. “You promised to tell me your history, you know,” said Alice, “and why it is you hate—C and D,” she added in a whisper, half afraid that it would be offended again. “Mine is a long and a sad tale!” said the Mouse, turning to Alice, and sighing. “It is a long tail, certainly,” said Alice, looking down with wonder at the Mouse's tail; “but why do you call it sad?” And she kept on puzzling about it while the Mouse was speaking, so that her idea of the tale was something like this:— “Fury said to a mouse, That he met in the house, ‘Let us both go to law: I will prosecute you.—Come, I'll take no denial; We must have a trial: For really this morning I've nothing to do.' Said the mouse to the cur, ‘Such a trial, dear sir, With no jury or judge, would be wasting our breath.' ‘I'll be judge, I'll be jury,' Said cunning old Fury: ‘I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.'” “You are not attending!” said the Mouse to Alice severely. “What are you thinking of?” “I beg your pardon,” said Alice very humbly: “you had got to the fifth bend, I think?” “I had not!” cried the Mouse, sharply and very angrily. “A knot!” said Alice, always ready to make herself useful, and looking anxiously about her. “Oh, do let me help to undo it!” “I shall do nothing of the sort,” said the Mouse, getting up and walking away. “You insult me by talking such nonsense!” “I didn't mean it!” pleaded poor Alice. “But you're so easily offended, you know!” The Mouse only growled in reply. “Please come back and finish your story!” Alice called after it; and the others all joined in chorus, “Yes, please do!” but the Mouse only shook its head impatiently, and walked a little quicker. “What a pity it wouldn't stay!” sighed the Lory, as soon as it was quite out of sight; and an old Crab took the opportunity of saying to her daughter “Ah, my dear! Let this be a lesson to you never to lose your temper!” “Hold your tongue, Ma!” said the young Crab, a little snappishly. “You're enough to try the patience of an oyster!” “I wish I had our Dinah here, I know I do!” said Alice aloud, addressing nobody in particular. “She'd soon fetch it back!” “And who is Dinah, if I might venture to ask the question?” said the Lory. Alice replied eagerly, for she was always ready to talk about her pet: “Dinah's our cat. And she's such a capital one for catching mice you can't think! And oh, I wish you could see her after the birds! Why, she'll eat a little bird as soon as look at it!” This speech caused a remarkable sensation among the party. Some of the birds hurried off at once: one old Magpie began wrapping itself up very carefully, remarking, “I really must be getting home; the night-air doesn't suit my throat!” and a Canary called out in a trembling voice to its children, “Come away, my dears! It's high time you were all in bed!” On various pretexts they all moved off, and Alice was soon left alone. “I wish I hadn't mentioned Dinah!” she said to herself in a melancholy tone. “Nobody seems to like her, down here, and I'm sure she's the best cat in the world! Oh, my dear Dinah! I wonder if I shall ever see you any more!” And here poor Alice began to cry again, for she felt very lonely and low-spirited. In a little while, however, she again heard a little pattering of footsteps in the distance, and she looked up eagerly, half hoping that the Mouse had changed his mind, and was coming back to finish his story. CHAPTER IV. The Rabbit Sends in a Little Bill It was the White Rabbit, trotting slowly back again, and looking anxiously about as it went, as if it had lost something; and she heard it muttering to itself “The Duchess! The Duchess! Oh my dear paws! Oh my fur and whiskers! She'll get me executed, as sure as ferrets are ferrets! Where can I have dropped them, I wonder?” Alice guessed in a moment that it was looking for the fan and the pair of white kid gloves, and she very good-naturedly began hunting about for them, but they were nowhere to be seen—everything seemed to have changed since her swim in the pool, and the great hall, with the glass table and the little door, had vanished completely. Very soon the Rabbit noticed Alice, as she went hunting about, and called out to her in an angry tone, “Why, Mary Ann, what are you doing out here? Run home this moment, and fetch me a pair of gloves and a fan! Quick, now!” And Alice was so much frightened that she ran off at once in the direction it pointed to, without trying to explain the mistake it had made. “He took me for his housemaid,” she said to herself as she ran. “How surprised he'll be when he finds out who I am! But I'd better take him his fan and gloves—that is, if I can find them.” As she said this, she came upon a neat little house, on the door of which was a bright brass plate with the name “W. RABBIT,” engraved upon it. She went in without knocking, and hurried upstairs, in great fear lest she should meet the real Mary Ann, and be turned out of the house before she had found the fan and gloves. “How queer it seems,” Alice said to herself, “to be going messages for a rabbit! I suppose Dinah'll be sending me on messages next!” And she began fancying the sort of thing that would happen: “‘Miss Alice! Come here directly, and get ready for your walk!' ‘Coming in a minute, nurse! But I've got to see that the mouse doesn't get out.' Only I don't think,” Alice went on, “that they'd let Dinah stop in the house if it began ordering people about like that!” By this time she had found her way into a tidy little room with a table in the window, and on it (as she had hoped) a fan and two or three pairs of tiny white kid gloves: she took up the fan and a pair of the gloves, and was just going to leave the room, when her eye fell upon a little bottle that stood near the looking-glass. There was no label this time with the words “DRINK ME,” but nevertheless she uncorked it and put it to her lips. “I know something interesting is sure to happen,” she said to herself, “whenever I eat or drink anything; so I'll just see what this bottle does. I do hope it'll make me grow large again, for really I'm quite tired of being such a tiny little thing!” It did so indeed, and much sooner than she had expected: before she had drunk half the bottle, she found her head pressing against the ceiling, and had to stoop to save her neck from being broken. She hastily put down the bottle, saying to herself “That's quite enough—I hope I shan't grow any more—As it is, I can't get out at the door—I do wish I hadn't drunk quite so much!” Alas! it was too late to wish that! She went on growing, and growing, and very soon had to kneel down on the floor: in another minute there was not even room for this, and she tried the effect of lying down with one elbow against the door, and the other arm curled round her head. Still she went on growing, and, as a last resource, she put one arm out of the window, and one foot up the chimney, and said to herself “Now I can do no more, whatever happens. What will become of me?” Luckily for Alice, the little magic bottle had now had its full effect, and she grew no larger: still it was very uncomfortable, and, as there seemed to be no sort of chance of her ever getting out of the room again, no wonder she felt unhappy. “It was much pleasanter at home,” thought poor Alice, “when one wasn't always growing larger and smaller, and being ordered about by mice and rabbits. I almost wish I hadn't gone down that rabbit-hole—and yet—and yet—it's rather curious, you know, this sort of life! I do wonder what can have happened to me! When I used to read fairy-tales, I fancied that kind of thing never happened, and now here I am in the middle of one! There ought to be a book written about me, that there ought! And when I grow up, I'll write one—but I'm grown up now,” she added in a sorrowful tone; “at least there's no room to grow up any more here.” “But then,” thought Alice, “shall I never get any older than I am now? That'll be a comfort, one way—never to be an old woman—but then—always to have lessons to learn! Oh, I shouldn't like that!” “Oh, you foolish Alice!” she answered herself. “How can you learn lessons in here? Why, there's hardly room for you, and no room at all for any lesson-books!” And so she went on, taking first one side and then the other, and making quite a conversation of it altogether; but after a few minutes she heard a voice outside, and stopped to listen. “Mary Ann! Mary Ann!” said the voice. “Fetch me my gloves this moment!” Then came a little pattering of feet on the stairs. Alice knew it was the Rabbit coming to look for her, and she trembled till she shook the house, quite forgetting that she was now about a thousand times as large as the Rabbit, and had no reason to be afraid of it. Presently the Rabbit came up to the door, and tried to open it; but, as the door opened inwards, and Alice's elbow was pressed hard against it, that attempt proved a failure. Alice heard it say to itself “Then I'll go round and get in at the window.” “That you won't!” thought Alice, and, after waiting till she fancied she heard the Rabbit just under the window, she suddenly spread out her hand, and made a snatch in the air. She did not get hold of anything, but she heard a little shriek and a fall, and a crash of broken glass, from which she concluded that it was just possible it had fallen into a cucumber-frame, or something of the sort. Next came an angry voice—the Rabbit's—“Pat! Pat! Where are you?” And then a voice she had never heard before, “Sure then I'm here! Digging for apples, yer honour!” “Digging for apples, indeed!” said the Rabbit angrily. “Here! Come and help me out of this!” (Sounds of more broken glass.) “Now tell me, Pat, what's that in the window?” “Sure, it's an arm, yer honour!” (He pronounced it “arrum.”) “An arm, you goose! Who ever saw one that size? Why, it fills the whole window!” “Sure, it does, yer honour: but it's an arm for all that.” “Well, it's got no business there, at any rate: go and take it away!” There was a long silence after this, and Alice could only hear whispers now and then; such as, “Sure, I don't like it, yer honour, at all, at all!” “Do as I tell you, you coward!” and at last she spread out her hand again, and made another snatch in the air. This time there were two little shrieks, and more sounds of broken glass. “What a number of cucumber-frames there must be!” thought Alice. “I wonder what they'll do next! As for pulling me out of the window, I only wish they could! I'm sure I don't want to stay in here any longer!” She waited for some time without hearing anything more: at last came a rumbling of little cartwheels, and the sound of a good many voices all talking together: she made out the words: “Where's the other ladder?—Why, I hadn't to bring but one; Bill's got the other—Bill! fetch it here, lad!—Here, put 'em up at this corner—No, tie 'em together first—they don't reach half high enough yet—Oh! they'll do well enough; don't be particular—Here, Bill! catch hold of this rope—Will the roof bear?—Mind that loose slate—Oh, it's coming down! Heads below!” (a loud crash)—“Now, who did that?—It was Bill, I fancy—Who's to go down the chimney?—Nay, I shan't! You do it!—That I won't, then!—Bill's to go down—Here, Bill! the master says you're to go down the chimney!” “Oh! So Bill's got to come down the chimney, has he?” said Alice to herself. “Shy, they seem to put everything upon Bill! I wouldn't be in Bill's place for a good deal: this fireplace is narrow, to be sure; but I think I can kick a little!” She drew her foot as far down the chimney as she could, and waited till she heard a little animal (she couldn't guess of what sort it was) scratching and scrambling about in the chimney close above her: then, saying to herself “This is Bill,” she gave one sharp kick, and waited to see what would happen next. The first thing she heard was a general chorus of “There goes Bill!” then the Rabbit's voice along—“Catch him, you by the hedge!” then silence, and then another confusion of voices—“Hold up his head—Brandy now—Don't choke him—How was it, old fellow? What happened to you? Tell us all about it!” Last came a little feeble, squeaking voice, (“That's Bill,” thought Alice,) “Well, I hardly know—No more, thank ye; I'm better now—but I'm a deal too flustered to tell you—all I know is, something comes at me like a Jack-in-the-box, and up I goes like a sky-rocket!” “So you did, old fellow!” said the others. “We must burn the house down!” said the Rabbit's voice; and Alice called out as loud as she could, “If you do, I'll set Dinah at you!” There was a dead silence instantly, and Alice thought to herself, “I wonder what they will do next! If they had any sense, they'd take the roof off.” After a minute or two, they began moving about again, and Alice heard the Rabbit say, “A barrowful will do, to begin with.” “A barrowful of what?” thought Alice; but she had not long to doubt, for the next moment a shower of little pebbles came rattling in at the window, and some of them hit her in the face. “I'll put a stop to this,” she said to herself, and shouted out, “You'd better not do that again!” which produced another dead silence. Alice noticed with some surprise that the pebbles were all turning into little cakes as they lay on the floor, and a bright idea came into her head. “If I eat one of these cakes,” she thought, “it's sure to make some change in my size; and as it can't possibly make me larger, it must make me smaller, I suppose.” So she swallowed one of the cakes, and was delighted to find that she began shrinking directly. As soon as she was small enough to get through the door, she ran out of the house, and found quite a crowd of little animals and birds waiting outside. The poor little Lizard, Bill, was in the middle, being held up by two guinea-pigs, who were giving it something out of a bottle. They all made a rush at Alice the moment she appeared; but she ran off as hard as she could, and soon found herself safe in a thick wood. “The first thing I've got to do,” said Alice to herself, as she wandered about in the wood, “is to grow to my right size again; and the second thing is to find my way into that lovely garden. I think that will be the best plan.” It sounded an excellent plan, no doubt, and very neatly and simply arranged; the only difficulty was, that she had not the smallest idea how to set about it; and while she was peering about anxiously among the trees, a little sharp bark just over her head made her look up in a great hurry. An enormous puppy was looking down at her with large round eyes, and feebly stretching out one paw, trying to touch her. “Poor little thing!” said Alice, in a coaxing tone, and she tried hard to whistle to it; but she was terribly frightened all the time at the thought that it might be hungry, in which case it would be very likely to eat her up in spite of all her coaxing. Hardly knowing what she did, she picked up a little bit of stick, and held it out to the puppy; whereupon the puppy jumped into the air off all its feet at once, with a yelp of delight, and rushed at the stick, and made believe to worry it; then Alice dodged behind a great thistle, to keep herself from being run over; and the moment she appeared on the other side, the puppy made another rush at the stick, and tumbled head over heels in its hurry to get hold of it; then Alice, thinking it was very like having a game of play with a cart-horse, and expecting every moment to be trampled under its feet, ran round the thistle again; then the puppy began a series of short charges at the stick, running a very little way forwards each time and a long way back, and barking hoarsely all the while, till at last it sat down a good way off, panting, with its tongue hanging out of its mouth, and its great eyes half shut. This seemed to Alice a good opportunity for making her escape; so she set off at once, and ran till she was quite tired and out of breath, and till the puppy's bark sounded quite faint in the distance. “And yet what a dear little puppy it was!” said Alice, as she leant against a buttercup to rest herself, and fanned herself with one of the leaves: “I should have liked teaching it tricks very much, if—if I'd only been the right size to do it! Oh dear! I'd nearly forgotten that I've got to grow up again! Let me see—how is it to be managed? I suppose I ought to eat or drink something or other; but the great question is, what?” The great question certainly was, what? Alice looked all round her at the flowers and the blades of grass, but she did not see anything that looked like the right thing to eat or drink under the circumstances. There was a large mushroom growing near her, about the same height as herself; and when she had looked under it, and on both sides of it, and behind it, it occurred to her that she might as well look and see what was on the top of it. She stretched herself up on tiptoe, and peeped over the edge of the mushroom, and her eyes immediately met those of a large blue caterpillar, that was sitting on the top with its arms folded, quietly smoking a long hookah, and taking not the smallest notice of her or of anything else.

Hello Gut check project fans and KB MD Health family I hope you're having a great day This is your host Eric Rieger soon to be joined on my awesome co host Dr. Kenneth Brown. If the audio sounds kind of funny on this intro, I'm just having to record it while doing a little traveling and regardless, it will not take away today's episode will not disappoint. This is about erectile dysfunction. What can be done about it? Who wants to deal with it doesn't matter if it's male or female. You don't want to have to be dealing with erectile dysfunction it you know the inappropriate time. So let's not waste any more of your time and get straight to the podcast. But first, our awesome sponsors artron to get your daily poly finos and ultra and to go to love my tummy.com slash KB MD. Love My tummy.com get your poly phenol calls today and of course unrefined bakery incredible food, go to unrefined bakery.com if you are a keto eater, a paleo eater, a gluten free eater or you just like great food that happens to be healthy for you. Go to unrefined bakery.com felt like you had to avoid good tasting cookies simply because you have celiac disease. Well, don't worry, they are certified gluten free and all of their products and get 20% off your entire first order with code. gut check that's unrefined bakery.com use code gut check and save 20% off your entire first order. And last but not least, go to KB Md health.com. If you'd like to check out the podcast and all of our products that we offer, then you can do so just head to KB Md health.com. You can find the home of the podcast all of our previous recordings from gut check project and you know get to know Dr. Brown and myself a little better and shoot us a message. All right. On to episode number 54 the reptile dysfunction Hello gut check project fans and KB MD health family. How are you doing today? I hope it's great. I am here for Episode 54 with my awesome co host Dr. Kenneth brown and today's topic. I think it's actually pretty popular even though when people have it. They don't like it. I was gonna say it's not popular. It's common. Oh yeah. Popular. Yes. No one really? Yeah. No. Today we're talking about erectile dysfunction Ed, and I'm doing this as gastroenterologist because we're seeing that the pandemic may have a strong effect on this but probably not in the way that you're thinking. So today's episode is going to really look at the rise in erectile dysfunction in younger men that are otherwise healthy. That's what we're going to talk about the rise in erectile dysfunction pun intended. Yes, apparently that is funny wording for you. But nice. So erectile dysfunction Episode 54. I don't you told me there's going to be surprised. Yeah. Yeah. So lately what I've been doing when I get Latin when I latch on to a topic, I pretty much don't tell Eric what we're gonna do. So just kind of see him. And so I thought today would be really funny to see how many times he giggles at the word reptile. So if we count it, it could it could turn into a drinking game. I'm not sure. Yeah. Okay. Well, fortunately, all natural, sparkling wine. So that's what we're gonna talk about today, reptile dysfunction. So before we jump into that, I have an ask of anybody who's listening to this. Okay. All right. So this is my ask for the public. I have an amazing team at my office and one of my amazing team members. It gave her two week notice and she's leaving for reasons like all people do, she's getting better opportunities. And I'm proud of her to do this. She helps her deal who is my scheduler work with my patients, and she helps these patients and it's been working really great. So what I'm asking is if anybody listening happens to be super cool, nice, loyal and wants to work with a great team. Or if you know anybody who happens to be super cool, loyal and wants work with a great team. I would like to find somebody to fill this role. There is no medical experience necessary. I'm just looking to hire the personality. So we're just trying to find these cool loyal people go to KB Md health.com kB Md health.com and just hit the Contact Us button. If you know of anybody. Sign up your friends family, we just I really am very proud of my team. I'm very proud of the way that my team takes care of my patients and I'm really going to fill this pretty tough void so I'm reaching out to everybody. Yeah, and if you're watching this show, from far away from Plano does not include commute travel expenses or per diems. So you're probably going to want to be in the area of the clip probably want to be local. Yeah. On your way. And if you're thinking of moving the plane over for Go anyways, I would go ahead and do that. And so, all right, let's do the usual Eric, what's going on with your life? We're about to renovate our house we moved into about a year ago. And actually today after we finish filming, I've got to go to a builders meeting. And so this is a this is a first a true renovation of a home that we that we live in and feeling that anxious but gonna be displaced for a little bit so I'm not super excited about it, but at the same time, we'll be okay. Yeah, I mean, I would just to ease your anxiety if you learn more about homebuilding Oh, then you'll feel more comfortable. So I'm gonna recommend a movie called the money pit with Tom Hanks. That is not the movie. Showing long and Tom, you'll learn a lot about that. Yeah, I'd say never heard of this movie. Doesn't he say home crap home. As far as me, I've got Lucas in Costa Rica. Today's international tournament right now is in the quarters currently playing. Lucas, let's give it to him. And Carla will be playing out of town this weekend for a large tournament as well. So we got the usual thing going on. And I'm getting my stem cells next week. You are you're getting stem cells. In fact, he even came down with a little bit of extra pain yesterday in your neck. I did. Yeah. So it's interesting. I'm really excited to see what this will do. I hurt my neck. surgery was recommended. I've been really trying to avoid surgery. Dr. Wade McKenna was a guest on our show early on. And he's really one of the world's leading stem cells. Definitely. I just happen to be fortunate enough that he's in the DFW Metroplex. So, him and Dr. Jerry Lewis are going to work their magic and I'm going to get a stem cell injection plus a stem cell infusion. And what you and I were talking and yeah, so everyone. So as I do scopes, everyone saw you a little pain, I'll be like, it's I'm still gonna do it. We were talking, you came across some literature, which we will do a whole show on after I do this. All right, about how polyphenols can augment the stem cell stuff, right? Yeah. So there's a handful of them and kind of on a whim, just knowing that we're research based and wait is certainly research based. And we've talked many times with him about how can we complement each other? Because that way, it's very altruistic. And if you have, if you don't know that, just listen to the episode. And you can learn a lot about what he's given up just to give his patients the best service. But knowing that I was really curious on what do polyphenols do, they could augment what it is that Wade McKenna does at his office. And I mean, it's a simple Google search turned up a lot of articles about, well, I don't want to get into it and give it all away. But yeah, it's it's there. Well, it's interesting, because you and I both do intermittent fasting. And we know that intermittent fasting causes a tapa G and fasting long enough turns on stem cells, and we know the polyphenols are fasting the medic molecule, correct. So that at least we know that way. But we're gonna do a whole show on that. And we might even be able to get one of these cool scientists come in and talk about it, you know, like we did with Charlene and Sylvia, which I still get a lot of feedback from patients about that. No kidding, is deep, but I was I'm really proud of our audience that we have. Because y'all, you stick to it, and you really dig in deep to the to the material. And I mean, how many times do we in the show going, man, I hope that wasn't too thick. And the next thing you know, we get email and patients coming in saying that they love the episode had no idea that such and such worked. And sometimes I'm like, did we say that? No. Is that what they told us? Yeah, we're getting emails from really all over the world, which is really cool that we got people listening in all different kinds of places. Sure. Um, last episode, we talked about what month is this what day it is, and as it turns out, April right now is stress Awareness Month. Oh, nice stress Awareness Month. And interestingly, we just got our paper published, we just got our study published in the clinical case reports and reviews at the beginning of COVID. To try and help the frontline workers manage it. The title is gastrointestinal symptom and stress recall survey in frontline health care, healthcare workers after consumption of combined quebracho conquer tree embell Salma a wild extract, what that is, is that's the generic term for atrantil. So this will talk about this study on a different date, but I'm very happy that it got published because it was really good results. And as we're gonna get into further into this episode, and then further into the next episode, right, we're gonna get into how maybe polyphenols are really affecting your stress level and different things. Yeah. So and I know what you're gonna do before you interrupt me, I know what you're gonna do. You're like, hey, it's not just stress Awareness Month in April, I realized that April is actually national Awareness Month of a whole bunch of things, like a whole bunch of things like Autism Awareness Month, which is very important, very important. And then and I'm not kidding here. It is. National safe. Digging month is that we have to call test dig before you hit a line. I have no idea but I know you dug deep on that. I mean, I can just imagine this, you know, I mean, like, for God's sakes, Bill, you're just such a reckless digger. It's April, this is the one month where you got to not do that. It's April. This is not reckless digging. It's safe digging bill. So I just imagine conversations like that happening. I, I'm not kidding, I think you dial 311 and you find out if they can send someone out to your property and tell you if there's a line or a pipe or something like that before you dig. They must get inundated in April. Well, I must have to hire like they couldn't have done it. late February because we were iced over. That's true. So now now's when people I remember being snowed over and you are like, don't you just wish this was all thought? Dig? I thought for sure you'd at least wonder who bill is and why such a reckless digger. You know? Well, I thought everybody knows who bill is. I know Bill's my pet badger. So Bill, and I've been at odds for a long time about his digging habits at my house. So I'm just hoping that Well, hopefully Bill's calling 311 I don't know. I'm not. I don't know, Bill. I got him because he was supposed to be the sweet badger. It's called a honey badger. But he's not sweet at all. Oh, not even Nice. Yeah, no, he's not they never are. Did you have skunks are a badger is a form of badger. I didn't know that. Yeah, well, not honey badger. They do not smell like honey whatsoever. So Bill causes a lot of stress in my life digging everywhere without calling 311. Before doing this a national safe digging month. Why do we even care about stress? Stress affects so many things? Oh, wow. Yeah, super important. Because stress can actually those headaches, you're having the insomnia that's going on this severe fatigue that you're having, you're going to these doctors seeing stuff when actually it could be stress. So it's important to pay attention. And I got to add another layer of stress here. Okay, hate to do this. This is already a very, very stressful time in the pandemic, everything's going on. There is new evidence coming out that COVID is now causing chronic erectile dysfunction in younger men who were completely otherwise healthy. That's terrible. I know. It's like it's not a bad enough virus already. But so do do the link this back to stress. And where we're going, we're gonna get into this. So actually, this has actually come up in my clinic several times. So you know, we did the episode about hemorrhoids last time, I do treat a lot of hemorrhoids. And once you're doing that with somebody, I think that they feel comfortable enough bringing up other potentially difficult topics like erectile dysfunction. So I've been seeing a trend of younger men asking me questions about erectile dysfunction. And after the first one mentioned that this kind of all started after they had COVID. I started asking, and most of these people have had COVID. Interesting. Yeah. So this is why we're doing this episode, I went down a proverbial badger hole. And we're gonna try and solve this just trying to sort kind of our categories here are these same men? I guess you mentioned hemorrhoids. Are these same people also afflicted with hemorrhoids? If I do hemorrhoids, what's going on there? Well, it's this is an interesting topic also, because that's something else that I want to look into in the future, there is some correlation with large hemorrhoids leading to what's called venous Steele syndrome is a whole separate topic. It just happens to be that the people I treat are also the same ones that are coming to me for hemorrhoids, right? So if all you have is a hammer that everything's a nail, Cheryl, I'm trying to think outside the box and go, Why in the world would this do this? And so I started researching it. And lo and behold, a new report was just published, which confirmed my suspicion. So a study was just recently published out of Italy, showing that COVID-19 increases the risk of developing chronic erectile dysfunction, nearly six fold. I must say that again, if you get COVID, and you're a young male, you may have thought that it was perfectly smooth and easy. And you got through it. You have a six fold increase in developing erectile dysfunction. It's terrible. And then they backtracked with the data a little bit. And then they realize that those that were already diagnosed with erectile dysfunction had a five fold increase of contracting the virus. That works now both ways. The second part makes a little bit of sense, and we'll get into that, but this study was led by Dr. Giannini, who is a professor of endocrinology and medical sexology at the University of Rome. It was published in andrology. I just liked the idea of being double board certified and sexology and endocrinology. Yeah, I didn't know that was an option. I didn't know it was either. I'm gonna go get double board. That's it. I mean, it doesn't sound like it wouldn't be entertaining. This was just published just last month. In this paper, they explained that ultimately, the underlying issue and erectile dysfunction is endothelial dysfunction attorneys gonna keep coming up over and over. Okay? Now this is a super complex process. And I'm going to go into this in in detail in just a few minutes. But basically in their study design, they did an online survey early on in the pandemic. So they discovered this very early. We don't know what these numbers are now that we're a year into the pandemic. And they compare to erectile dysfunction. People that fill out the survey versus non erectile dysfunction groups EDI for short, and accounted for other variabilities like psychological stress locked down financial stress, they took those out, they're looking strictly at COVID at COVID on this one. So they were able to get 100 adults, and they use what's called a logistic regression model, which is why you hire statisticians to do these kind of papers for you. Yes. And they came up with those numbers, that after getting COVID, the likelihood of developing EDI was six fold higher than those that were not infected. Wow, I crazy, right? And their conclusion is that erectile dysfunction is all about the endo phillium. And those are the layers that line the blood vessels right now it's starting to go, that makes sense. Because we know that COVID creates a lot of different problems. And so that's when I went, Oh, my gosh, this makes sense. So, in there, Dr. Giannini must have a sense of humor, because in the paper, they actually said you should, it gives a whole new meaning to wearing the mask mask up to keep it up is what the doctor said. So I guess, somebody that's double board and endocrinology and sexology can make jokes like that and still get published. Yeah, respected journals. I tried that there's no way to be accepted. And so what he's saying is wearing the mask could potentially prevent you from getting COVID and also protect your prevent you from getting sexual dysfunction. And they're plausible mechanism by which COVID-19 may impact directly on the endothelial cells, leading to a reptile dysfunction. So in the paper, they go on to describe we're now seeing all these COVID long holders, right seeing patients that show up with neurologic complications, cardiac complications, pulmonary complications, we also know that people were having cardiac events, and they're having strokes. It all comes down to the inflammation in the endothelial lining the endothelial lines, all these origins, but more importantly, it lines the blood vessels supplying the organs. So the concern specifically is that the virus is directly damaging these endothelial cells. And this is how some people feel the virus causes long term damage, not just to those origins, but if you're otherwise healthy, it could hurt it could cause long term damage to your penis. I don't want that. No, this is I mean, this is kind of shocking stuff to think about it, but it makes sense because we're gonna get into the physiology of the penis. Here. Oh, by the way, I'm just got my master's in psychology. I'm not a doctorate yet. Not double board certified, but I just got my master's. I don't know when you had the time an hour ago, when I was preparing for this podcast. That does not sound like an accredited school. I is one of those online things. And that's one of the really reputable hard to get into, like University of Phoenix. I mean, it was, you know, Danna college, online school. So interesting. Yeah, we'll see what it we'll see what you learned. What I thought was interesting that somebody for 400 bucks, they gave me the title and then I Danna is where I went to undergrad. They close, they are not around anymore. So then another study. So then I started going down, and I looked at this and I was like, Okay, we got one study that looked at the actual a pool of people that had this. And then another study recently conducted, what they did is they made the correlation between COVID and erectile dysfunction. And their conclusion was that they assumed that the increase in cardiovascular and pulmonary complications is what is driving the erectile dysfunction. I mean, it makes sense it, I guess, I guess what I'm what I think you're leaning to or that this information is leading us towards is that COVID basically kicks off this systemic inflammation problem. And that being the case. inflammation, once again, is the root of long term and chronic disease. And knowing that erectile dysfunction happens to be one of the manifestations of and so that's what I want to get out here. You're exactly right, local or systemic inflammation, because all inflammation starts local and when it leads to a cytokine release on whatever episode that was that we did the innate immune system. Do you have any idea of why we believe that the end endothelial cells with a blood vessel cells are so ravaged by SARS cov, two or COVID, probably because of angiotensin converting enzyme receptors, Estill receptors. That's exactly it. So in this particular study and another one in the Journal of endocrinology investigation, what they said was that we had to be very careful because we know that SARS cov, two binds to the h2 receptor to get into the cell is access. That's its access. So the final conclusion of all these articles is that we now know that COVID can have both a direct and indirect effect on your penis. It's terrible. nobody's talking about that now, and this could just be the beginning. Like we don't really know like this. The data they published six fold increase was a very small number of people because it was early on in the pandemic, right? I mean, kudos to Dr. Giannini, who was thinking about erectile dysfunction when we didn't even know that SARS cov. Two was, yeah, I mean, I'm amazed continually who hopped on board early to know that these were things to be testing for so early in the game. Yeah. So the so the study that we just got published, we were working on this way back in April. I know we're working on a Yeah, working on in April, launching in May. Yeah. Working on an April launching in May, finalizing June, July, August. And then you go through all these revisions and so that, I mean, he really, he really worked hard to get this out. So more stress for stress Awareness Month. So I'm gonna, I'm throwing a lot at you. Let's just recap. Because right now, this is stuff that nobody's talking about. Yeah, no, right. I mean, I don't know where to begin with the recap. But I do believe that what we need to talk about is how can you prepare your body to successfully harness and Okay, let's just say that someone gets COVID. Yeah, I don't want them to worry perpetually, that they won't ever be able to imagine a life without EDI. And in sorry, for the moment, I'm gonna give you all play by play. Ken is on the ground. He's looking for a cable. Yes. And he just found it. And he wants, he wants me to keep talking. But what he's doing is quite dangerous. He's touching things, he's unplugging things. And I can guarantee you he did not call 311 before he started to dig down there, and then that mess of wires. Alright, however, he's back, I think you're muted. So that was really bad. So what I was saying is, is I think that regardless of what causes or triggers a cascade of inflammation, even if it happens to be COVID-19, you want to be certain that your body is prepared to not allow inflammation to run out of control. Absolutely. and protect your endothelial lining everywhere, right? And long term inflammation will be destroying that your healthy cells will be competing with out of control inflammation to 100%. So we're gonna eventually talk about how to protect yourself. Okay, but not on this episode. This is part one, part two, we're gonna be getting some cool science. Yeah, I just learned that. I know. Okay, but you're but you're on the right track your your level two Polly phonologists. So we're gonna be talking about that. But to actually understand this, I don't think many people really know what erectile dysfunction is. I mean, it gets talked about all the time. There's commercials and all this stuff. Yeah. Well, okay, where do you Where do you want to go? Let's start. Let's start with the definition. Okay. By definition, erectile dysfunction is defined in the medical literature as the inability to achieve or maintain an erection sufficient for satisfactory sexual performance. Yeah, that sounds awful. Yeah. very vague from medical definition also. Yeah, because that's how medical things are written. I just imagine this, this process with your with your partner and cheer he or she goes, you know, really should go see somebody about that. And then your responses, why we just had sex for two hours. And then shear your partner goes, That's not enough. I need at least three hours and by the medical definition, I'm not fully satisfied, therefore you have erectile dysfunction. You got Ed. I don't think that we're a good match. The definition was sufficient for satisfactory sexual performance. What is your satisfactory 100% not everything written in the medical journal is tested for for common communication I had and I'm not making So when I did residency, I worked in the geriatric clinic so you do internal medicine, you get assigned to clinic. I love doing the geriatric clinic, as I spent most of the time taking drugs away. 85 year old male 83 year old female, super smart. They came to the clinic. Because her complaint was, Oh, yes. Her complaint was that something is wrong, because they're only intimate three times a week. And for the past 60 years, good. There was awesome. I'm like, Oh, my. And so I went and when when you're in residency, you have to present it to the attendings. And every attending was like a maintenance couple. No kidding. Yeah. So they're apparently at 85, three times a week was considered EDI, in this case, because they had a different expectation, then everyone. Come on, man. Post stemcell. We don't even go to Padre anymore. I'm freaking 90. It's like, you know, 14 days always going to bed at two three in the morning. He won't even stay up and dance. Is this. I'm gonna I'm sorry, ma'am. Why are you here? He's like, Bill just doesn't want to rave anymore. It's because bills and bills shows up a lot. Bill. So anyways, I just think it's funny because whatever your definition of EDI, it's kind of like what your definition is. But I think most people can agree that the inability to achieve interaction or lose interaction is a big deal, right. And prior to COVID, it was projected that 322 million men worldwide will have significant erectile dysfunction by 2025. My prediction is that post COVID this may be a much, much bigger deal. We may be seeing a ton more. That worldwide, worldwide. Okay. That's a lot. It's still quite a bit, but just south of 8 billion people. 322 million seeking care. Oh, seeking care. Wow. That's good point. Yeah. Wow. That's awful. Yeah. A lot of people. That's a lot of unhappy couples, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Alright, so you're ready to talk some sexology it's good. All right, we're gonna talk about the process of an erection. Okay, so it sounds to me like we're gonna be talking about blood flow and what stimulates that and how those things work. This is kind of a PG episode. Yeah, because we got it because it's just off the topic, but we're gonna be science is the topic. Alright. Remember that? The process of an erection is very complex. Actually. I forgot how complex this was. It's multifactorial. You need to have a balance of psychological hormonal, neurological, vascular and anatomic factors. any alteration anywhere can actually affect the whole process. Yes, no penis, no erection. This is true. No. Unless you're like, mentally on a different level. No blood. No. I mean, we're picking up what you're putting down what's going on down here. I have a penile gland erection. I've achieved enlightenment. I can make my pineal gland. your pineal gland is in your brain. I'm sorry. I'm assuming Everybody knows that. Yeah, maybe you do gland is also pronounced but yeah, that's that's honestly, I just nodded. I didn't know what the hell you're talking. I was trying to make a pun. Yeah. It's called the third eye. But it's up here. Yeah. So anyways, a lots going on. This is super complex. Alright, I'm going to go Bill Nye science guy on you. Okay. And so I built a prop before you got here. This will be interesting. I hope that if you're not, if you're one of the 1000s that are online, you just go back to this part of the show and look at whatever the heck is planed. Everyone what's going on here and we will walk through a reaction. I thought we would do. Yeah, it looks like that's what we're gonna do. But can you describe what I just put on the table there It looks to me like to dish sponges with a two retractable those little squishy key ring holders holding the two sponges together. And on one end, you have a long hot dog balloon filled with water. And I can only imagine that what we're going to do here is show what happens when blood flow arrives in a typical man's penis. You are exactly right. So what we're gonna do here is Oh, yes. So let's walk through the process. Okay. So first step, your brain, which is probably on this end, somewhere way on the other end of that way over here, okay? So your brain find something arousing They could be anything for anybody, okay? And that arousing that arousal without knowing it, a signal is sent through your nerves, okay? To a nerve in the endothelial cells of your penis, and we're going to talk specifically about that. And what it does is it releases a chemical that we're all that we talked about all the time. acetylcholine, acetylcholine Yeah. And then what acetylcholine does is it actually hops onto the endothelial cells, the lining of the sponge hops there. And the acetylcholine actually creates this calcium mediated conversion of Argentine to nitric oxide. And people talk about nitric oxide all the time about vezo dilation. We've talked about it before on different episodes for sports using polyphenols for sports, right? So they see the Coleen calcium mediated channel opens up arginine gets converted to nitric oxide, and then nitric oxide is the key to this whole process. Okay. So nitric oxide, what it does is, it goes through this very interesting process of turning on something called the cgmp, the cyclic guanosine monophosphate, which opens up potassium and calcium channels. And what that does, is that stimulates increased blood flow represented by the balloon, notice that my hand is trapping the blood flow there. So right now the nitric oxide stimulated by acetylcholine turned on by the brain has opened up blood flow to these spongy areas here, known as the corpus cavernosum. The corpus cavernosum is filled with blood vessels and so blood rushes in. And then these swell up and it actually traps the blood, right? And this is the actual process of having an erection. So you need the mental component. You need the proper amino acids you need the proper health and the nitric oxide. Why is the nitric oxide so important? Because in the next episode, we're gonna talk about what COVID does to this whole process, okay, and as it turns out, affecting the endothelial cells is the key. Because when the endothelial cells don't do this process, you cannot achieve this, okay? So, when you are done being aroused, the cgmp is then broken down by an enzyme called phospho. diaster, Ace, five, PD five. And then the blood is slowly allowed to leave the cleaners, and you go back to its natural state. And so that fossil diaster race is important also, because once you achieve arousal, and once you're no longer aroused, the penis goes back to its normal state. That's the thing that created that made Pfizer into a multi multi billion dollar business, some scientist was trying to work on a high blood pressure medicine, to increase nitric oxide to vezo dilate the blood so that you drop your blood pressure. And if you remember the history of that one, they were doing a clinical study and none of the men returned their unused samples unused. And then that's when, you know, some poor scientists is like my life's work is ruined, I'll never fix high blood pressure, nobody ate something much better here again. And that is what is now known as Viagra, it actually blocks that enzyme that allows this to be released. And so this is all happening on the endothelial cells. And so once that enzyme gets blocked, then you can actually maintain an erection longer and all the other things and all the other TV commercials regarding those whole class of medicines. Now, there are phosphodiesterase five inhibitors, one little enzyme is what MIT turned it into a billion dollar industry. And so this is all happening right there to endothelial cells. So if there's any inflammation or damage to those cells, this whole process can't be achieved. Yeah. No matter how much you want to will it right, like there's more going on than that. So would you like to recap the process? Wow, that is a lot. And you don't really have to say the sciency words I just want to see you squeezing the balloon I can see. So essentially arousal, if endothelial cells are now stimulated, so that they can be dilated and that occurs because arginine is then converted into nitric oxide, which then of course has cgmp. And suddenly now we have a place for this high pressure blood flow to go. And I see I'm having problems. Probably more the reason why you want to be so anxiety can also I'm very nervous isn't working. But anyway, so now we have an erection because what we have here is the positive. Well all four all four measures were met. And our endothelial cells are allowed to becoming gorged, and then suddenly now phospho diaster race arrives, because we're finished, and blood flow returns back to normal, and you're good to go. 100%. So let's look at a couple health issues that tend to have more reptile dysfunction. So diabetes, definitely Oh man, poor vasculature, poor vasculature. You can have neuropathy, you don't have the nerves traveling secreting the acetylcholine, you have some vasculopathy. So your arteries look like the tail end of this in the middle. So there's things that can happen with that. hypertension is another one chronic hypertension. Definitely. So chronic hypertension, it can lead to issues with erectile dysfunction. Both of those have increased h2 receptors in the endothelial cells. Yeah. So you got better access for that COVID if you happen to be infected, so now you've got it's kind of like, multiplying the damage. Yes, exactly. And which also makes sense why people with prior reptile dysfunction had a five fold increase in developing significant COVID. Kind of makes sense. Yeah, it does. It's just more Ace to receptors present. Yeah. So you know, it's a very crude model, Bill Nye science guy kind of thing here. Oh, I think you really hit it on the park. I imagine walking around the studio trying to find things that I can like, you know, what I really want to do I want to do, I want to find something that that signifies the corpus cavernosum. It's a spongy, like smooth muscle sponge. Yes. Yeah, like that. I don't remember anybody talking about the key ring holder. But I mean, regardless, it works. Trust me. I thought of a lot of different ways how to make sure that the sponge is bad, though. I mean, that's kind of how tissues functions. Yeah. Yeah. So you have this. This is a smooth muscle. So anything that affects smooth muscle can actually affect this. Yeah. So that's how come we always talk about increasing sports performance, increasing nitric oxide, having the proper diet, all these things play into a role. So having the proper diet, maintaining healthy lifestyle, exercising increases? Oh, here's a great example. I was thinking about this. I was like, why is exercise so important? Well, exercise increases BDNF in your brain, oh, decreased neuro inflammation, allowing for more sensitivity allowing for more acetylcholine to go through. We know from Angie's Angie being on a guest. On the episode, she discussed how TNF an inflammatory marker decreases acetylcholine. So the more chronic inflammation you have, the higher likelihood you will not have the proper amount acetylcholine. So there's something else there, then we get into the vascular aspect of this, with regular exercise in good sleep, you have increased or improved vascular tone. So it all kind of plays into this is something that we didn't talk about in the breakdown on on the stimuli for where acetylcholine is coming from. And just a brief thing, but if I remember correctly, I think that the parasympathetic nervous system is actually the catalyst right for the release of acetylcholine. And if you can't rest, and you don't have good vagal tone, then you then just like you said earlier, you won't have the correct neurotransmitters to make this happen. That comes with great rest, which helps lower your anxiety. How can you get great rest you exercise is a cyclical thing. You're You know what? I'm so glad you brought that up, because this is something we learned in med school. And I forgot to because it wasn't discussed in any of these articles, and I kind of stopped at that. But you're exactly right. To achieve an orgasm. I need the parasympathetic system to get that acetylcholine to start on sorry, to achieve an erection to achieve an orgasm, you need your sympathetic. Yeah. And so that sympathetic drops all these things maintaining this, which is why you go back to your normal state post or in your phospho das races now present. Yes, yeah. phosphodiesterase is released, you break down cgmp blood flow is allowed to leave. And that's a really cool, fascinating thing, which is that people who have great vagal tone generally are exercising and don't have chronic anxiety. They usually have great rest, they typically eat well. Good. When we have patients who show up in the clinic or at the procedure, the procedure suite, they'll have a low heart rate. They generally have good physique and are healthy. They're either runner, cyclers lifters, crossfitters, whatever happens to be but today they're active, they vigorous lots, lots and lots and lots of diggers. But But I guess I'm just saying it augments in order to prepare for something like, like COVID you really just want to be in shape. You just want to take care of yourself. You want to give yourself that health span. We've we Sitting on services. Yeah and this this can be done through a lot of different ways. Just getting up and getting some. Oh my gosh. So while I was waiting for you to come over I get done with clinic a little early turned on. Brian Reagan has special at Red Rocks. Oh nice. I didn't know there was one. Oh, it's he's just I just you know he's just good. We're both big fans of stand up comedy huge big fan of stand up comedy. It's called Reagan on the rocks. And I'm I'm didn't look it up. But it the way you describe it. I think it's red rocks in Colorado. Oh, it's gotta be it was outdoor. Yeah, yeah. And it's like this amphitheater type style, outdoor rocks. And he was like, he was Yeah, I'm at that age. I'm going to doctors all the time. My doctor said, Brian, you need to quit being so sedentary. As he goes, right? Then I promised myself I need to get a dictionary. And never got around to it. I just lay around the house all day. So but I thought that was funny because he's never I just get out and do something, just get moving a little bit. you increase the blood flow, increase your body's responsiveness, your vagal tone. And then other issues that you may have problems with. The interesting thing is how many people how many men will avoid other health issues? Until erectile dysfunction comes up? Yeah. Which is, which I think is you ask a lot of people yeah, that that'll be the thing. They'll drive into a doctor? Yeah, I think guys are just generally just I don't know what it is. But guys are just generally that way about health care in, in total. Agreed? Yeah. So this is part one, because I didn't want to go on for way too long. This is still I think we're, we're having a decent time here. We're a little bit shorter than we normally do. But that's probably Yeah. But that's probably a good thing, because maybe we try and pack too much in all the time. So part two is going to be what can you do to make sure that you protect your penis, okay? How polyphenols on a molecular level work to take care of it, prevent it. And it all comes down to everything you're talking about inflammation and how it does it the amount that you need to take, how do you increase your nitric oxide all of the above. And spoiler, it is going to be all about inflammation. And I'm just I'm looking at the products that that are near and dear to my heart. I tried to polyphenol blend CBD didn't find anything directly related to nitric oxide. But there's a lot of evidence that CBD decreasing anxiety definitely allows a greater vagal tone and acetylcholine release. And of course, brockagh lead with sulforaphane in it decreasing NF Kappa beta, which we'll get into, which is all about inflammation. So that awesome episode, great introduction to what people struggle with and shouldn't be ashamed to go and seek help now. And I think that we'll be able to explain how to protect yourself from this, which ultimately is protecting your overall health, which ultimately protects you from COVID. And if you've been a maybe a little bit Cavalier towards COVID. Yeah, this is one of those things that kind of gets you thinking twice a little bit. Yeah, definitely no awesome episode. Yeah. Hey, this is I mean, I don't know if you want to try this at all, but it is a little bit soothing to move the water back and forth. Do you remember those those, those little things that used to have the inverted water below the water? Snake? Water? Snake? Yeah, you try to hang on to it and go all over the place? Yeah, that's similar to that. It is similar to that. But so anyways, I've submitted a patent as a teaching tool once I get my psychology degree. So I was told to tell you, you're not going to get that. That is going to be Episode 54. Be certain to turn in our are we going to do the follow up on 55? We're going to develop on 55. Yes. So 55 is going to be all about the science and what you can do to protect your penis, protect your health. And we're going to continue with, you know, battling COVID by prevention, not just when this happens, you know, it's this thing that we talked about what we've done, I don't remember how long that was vitamin D and all the usual stuff. I don't know either. But it's all it's funny how this is just becoming this multi circle Venn diagram and everything's landing right in the middle. And that middle is inflammation all the time. Definitely. Oh, almost forgot, this show is not meant for medical advice. So if you have any issues with erectile dysfunction, or any other health concern, please consult the doctors that you know, and this is technically just a show that we just talked about things that happen to be in health. It is it's just a show. But the other thing is that the whole point of the show is to also try and help one person so if somebody is having an issue, and they agree checked out because of this because they found the weird sponge thing, entertaining or not entertaining, then we've done our job. Absolutely. So Episode 54. No joke. Not one from you about car 54 I'm shocked with all of your your lame dad jokes. I honestly expected you to show up with like a cop hat and a spinning red light or something like that. I took my because my employer was put it two weeks and I took the staff out. Yeah, we are at a restaurant. And of course I'm throwing out and the waitress, same age as all my employees. they impart that my employees apologize, so he's gonna throw these out all night. She's like, Oh, don't worry, I'm totally down with that jokes. I'm like my boys have it doesn't matter how funny I think a meme is. I send it to them and they but they just type back seven years ago. It's all I get back. It's all you buy for both Mac engaged. So tune in next week for more dad jokes, I guess tons of dad jokes. Alright, that's gonna be Episode 54. Thank you so much for liking shared, certainly if you have a concern, rewatch and then tune in for Episode 55 or get some follow up on what can be done to naturally protect yourself from hopefully, yeah, and and and in all seriousness, if you have a friend or anybody that has discussed this with you or something like that, make sure that they listen to this because it could be an early sign of something else. Definitely that could that could save their life. Thank you all very much. We'll see you next time. Bye bye.

The Legend of Sam Fuld was born during his days in the minor leagues and when he played for the Oakland A's and in Tampa Bay. It involved his wild dives and seeming willingness to do whatever it took to make the play. Earlier this year, Fuld became the General Manager of the Philadelphia Phillies. Sam Fuld was diagnosed with type 1 at age ten and first spoke to Stacey in 2016. In this classic episode he shares his story, what he did as a player to manage his blood sugar, and a lot about the camp he's still organizing today. Video of Sam's plays from 2013 This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Check out Stacey's book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode Transcription:   Stacey Simms  0:00 This episode of Diabetes Connections is brought to you by inside the breakthrough. A new history of science podcast full of Did you know stuff like does snake oil actually contain snakes? If you're intrigued by science get excited about the process of discovery and one of the best stories that your next dinner party inside the breakthrough is the show for you.   Announcer  0:25 This is Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms.   Stacey Simms  0:31 Welcome to a classic episode of the show where we take a look back at stories of connection that you may have missed the first time around. I'm your host, Stacey Simms, and of course, the emphasis is still on educating and inspiring people with diabetes with a focus on those who use insulin. This time around, you're going to hear from the legendary Major League Baseball player Sam Fuld diagnosed with type one at age 10. I first spoke to Sam in 2016, when he was playing with the Oakland A's. He retired as a player in 2017. And he was just recently named the general manager of the Philadelphia Phillies. If you're not familiar with Sam fold, I say legendary because and you'll hear us talk about this. There was a time when he was known for these incredible plays in the outfield where he would just throw his body into walls, he would make these dives that to me, the mom looked painful. And I linked up one of the many videos made by fans, you can check that out in Diabetes Connections, the group on Facebook, but Sam is a lot more than the legend. He also has a terrific program, a coaching program for kids with type one. I will let him tell you more about that. But I will link up the information in the show notes. And I will talk about that after the interview as well. Because you know of course in 2021, it looks a little bit different. Please remember this podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. This episode of Diabetes Connections is supported by inside the breakthrough a new history of science podcast, the 2021 is the 100th anniversary as most of you know of the discovery of insulin. It is arguably the biggest scientific discovery in Canadian history. This series examines that moment and many others through the lens of Canadian researchers trying to find what's next for the fight against diabetes. The host, Dan Riskin, has a great following you may know him from many years of hosting primetime Discovery Channel shows. He's also really funny. He's appeared on a lot of late night shows and he wrote the book, Mother Nature is trying to kill you. We've got a link to inside the breakthrough over at Diabetes connections.com. And of course you can find it wherever you listen to podcasts. When I'm doing these classic episodes, I have reaching back to the people featured in them for a comment and update, you know, to let them know that we're bringing the interviews back out and see if there's anything they can add and Sam Fuld was kind enough to correspond with me. And I did send to him congratulations on the amazing new job as General Manager for the Phillies. And I asked him if he could give us a diabetes update. So here's what he said, quote, “Hey, Stacy, I am really enjoying my new role. I am trying to learn and achieve as much as possible as we enter spring training. I'm surrounded by a lot of experienced co workers and have been leaning on them extensively throughout the past few weeks. Time is precious these days. So I'm really grateful for my Dexcom G6. Next up is a transition away from insulin pens, and toward an insulin pump. I'm really excited about experimenting with one of the hybrid closed loop systems.” So that's the update from Sam, as you'll hear the interview, he was not using an insulin pump. And of course I told him he can just jump in Diabetes Connections, the Facebook group and learn more from all of you. So let's see if he pops up. All right, here's my interview from February 2016. All right, my guest today is Sam fold. He was diagnosed type 1 diabetes at age 10. after he'd already made up his mind to play professional baseball, as you likely know, he got there playing first with the Cubs than at Tampa Bay. And now with the Oakland A's. It was while in Tampa that Sam started his weekend camp for kids with diabetes, teaching them as he's learned that diabetes shouldn't hold you back. As a mom of a kid who plays baseball has type 1 diabetes. I'm really excited to talk to you, Sam fold. Welcome to Diabetes Connections.   Sam Fuld  4:31 Hey, thanks for having me.   Stacey Simms  4:32 Can we start kind of by going back before you were even diagnosed? You were really into baseball is what I've read. Is that right?   Sam Fuld  4:41 Oh, yeah, yeah, baseball was. I really can't remember a time where I didn't love baseball. I was I was probably four or five years old when I realized like, oh, man, this is my favorite sport. I mean, I played every sport imaginable grown up but there was something about baseball that I just really loved and I think it was better Added to then the other sports was okay, the other ones. But for some reason I was better in baseball I think that probably helped contribute to my passion for but I think it worked hand in hand. I was good at it because I loved it. And I loved it even more because I was good at.   Stacey Simms  5:14 So not too many years later than you found out you had type 1 diabetes, what happened? Do you remember your diagnosis?   Sam Fuld  5:21 vaguely. I mean, luckily, it wasn't anything too scary. I mean, it was essentially an accumulation of a couple months of symptoms. And there's no type 1 diabetes in my family at all. So my parents didn't really know what was going on. They just something was going on. And, you know, I showed all the classic symptoms of going to the bathroom all the time and being thirsty and losing weight. You know, I was 10 years old and lost 10 pounds over the summer. So my parents didn't take them too long to figure out something was wrong. So I think I remember going into the doctor and you know, it was about a 480, which obviously is pretty high, but certainly not really high. When you when you compare it to some of the other numbers that diagnosed diabetics get. So you know, it wasn't anything too scary, luckily, and we all knew right away what what the deal was,   Stacey Simms  6:09 what was the deal? I mean, how did it change your life? And this was, I'll call it a generation ago, let's say your diagnosis, right, like 20 years ago. So how did it change your life? This wasn't a time when people were automatically going on an insulin pump and getting a Dexcom   Sam Fuld  6:23 No, not at all. No, I don't even think pumps were on the market. At that point. It was certainly not an option. And yeah, I just remember well, so I was at an age where I could be pretty independent with it. So I remember my parents helped me out with with my injections for the first few months after being diagnosed. And but shortly thereafter, I was really independent. And I you know, I had the old old school syringe and the vials and my meter. You know, I think it probably was like a 25 second countdown. So which is an eternity nowadays, but it wasn't too bad. I mean, it wasn't like reading the color of a urine sample. Right?   Stacey Simms  6:59 Nobody was sharpening the needles.   Sam Fuld  7:02 Yeah, so somewhere in between, like ancient diabetes and current diabetes treatment. I was so naive. I didn't know what I had. No, you know, I think my uncle had a cat with diabetes. And that was about all I knew about. So I really, in some ways, was naive and a little ignorant. And I just thought, okay, God, I figured it was kind of like having asthma. Like I had asthma at the time. And I was like, Okay, I guess it's another thing to deal with. And I guess that naivete kind of helped me in some ways.   Stacey Simms  7:29 Yeah. Well, it's good to not know what you can't do. Did you ever think you couldn't play baseball?   Sam Fuld  7:34 No, no, I was lucky. I mean, the the medical staff was really positive and supportive, and my family and friends are really supportive. So it really never crossed my mind. It would hold me back, I think I was lucky to be surrounded by some really supportive people. And I, you know, I think it wasn't until months or years after I was diagnosed, that I heard this stigma that maybe diabetes could hold you back, or that that was even a thing. So I think, again, I was lucky that the first thing that popped in my mind was okay, nothing's gonna change, you're gonna have to see me a big pain in the butt potentially. But, you know, ultimately, it's not gonna hold me back.   Stacey Simms  8:11 And you mentioned you had asthma. Do you don't have   Sam Fuld  8:13 to do that? No, I was kind of like an exercise induced as it was. I sort of grew out of it. My dad is as one goes. Yeah, I don't know. It's, um, I would put the time I was like, using an inhaler occasionally. But no, luckily, that's a non issue at this point.   Stacey Simms  8:28 Yeah, I was gonna say that's a lot to deal with. But you've mentioned that you had some great inspiration shortly after your diagnosis, because there have been other professional ballplayers with type one.   Sam Fuld  8:40 Yeah, there have not too many. But you know, I think in back then, when I was diagnosed, it wasn't like, you could just hop online and Google like type one diabetic baseball players, you know, kind of word of mouth. So I know about rod Santos, the Chicago Cubs. Great. And then I had a family friend, at the time was a pitching coach for the Boston Red Sox. And he knew of Bill gullickson, who was a longtime Major League pitcher. And so when I was about type one himself, and when I was about 12, you know, year and a half after being diagnosed, my family friends set up this sort of meeting on the field at Fenway Park, when when Bill was in town pitching for the Tigers, and I got to meet him and you know, it was like a two minute conversation and but that really kind of went a long way I was I knew he existed, but to really meet meet him face to face, it kind of gave me an extra bit of motivation.   Stacey Simms  9:29 I think that's so important. Because as you said, no one sat you down a diagnosis and said, well, son, your dreams of baseball are done. This is not going to happen for you. And a lot of kids in in my son's generation, don't worry about that either. They're not really told anymore. This is going to hold you back. But being you know, kind of hearing that and then seeing and meeting somebody who's done that is a big difference is that one of the reasons I would assume that talking to Bill gullickson really cemented it for you why you now talk to these kids.   Sam Fuld  10:00 No doubt, no doubt. I mean, I remember that moment. You know, it was 22 years ago, 2122 years ago, but I remember it like it was yesterday. And I definitely impacts the way I, you know, I go out of my way to meet other kids with type one. So I think yeah, that that moment was so invigorating to me, and I'll never forget it. Part of the inspiration for the camp that I do and and all the interaction I have with with young type ones.   Stacey Simms  10:26 Well, let's talk about the camp in a little bit. But I do want to focus on I mean, the way you play baseball, that crazy first season in 2011, when you had all of those, the jumping and the diving and the YouTube videos, Was that fun for you? Instead of crazy here, because I'd also like to talk to your mom, I was worried about you getting hurt. so silly.   Unknown Speaker  10:50 That like,   Sam Fuld  10:52 I can't speak for my mom. She was probably willing to deal with like the whiplash that I got on all those guys. I think she got a pretty good kick out of that whole run to know I loved it. It was an amazing, amazing part of my career in life. Really, it was, it happens so quickly, you know, I was kind of, I just come over to the rays from the Cubs in a trade. And, you know, I had a little bit of big time with the cubs. But this was like my first opportunity that first time making the team out of spring training, you know, but even at that point on opening day, I was like, essentially, the last man on the team, you know, it's like the fifth outfielder and didn't envision really playing a whole lot. I was just kind of thrilled to be on the team. And Manny Ramirez retired. And that kind of thrust me into like the starting role. And I just kind of ran with it. And the next few weeks, were just like this crazy, wild ride. And I guess I'm lucky I had the perspective, I guess I know enough perspective to try to enjoy the moment as crazy as it was. There were moments I was able to like, sit back and just go oh my gosh, life is crazy right now. But this is fine.   Stacey Simms  11:59 It's great. And I if as you listen, if you haven't heard about this, I will link up the legend of Sam fold and some of the videos that came out of that season. A lot of fun. But tell me about your your routine, if you could, I had a lot of questions from people who wanted to know as a professional athlete, how do you do it with type 1 diabetes? How do you take care of yourself? You don't if you don't mind getting a little personal here to kind of share maybe a game day routine or how you take care of at all? Sure.   Sam Fuld  12:27 Well, I mean, I'm sort of an old school diabetic I use my Lantus and novolog pens, and I don't use a CGM, nor pump obviously. And that's just worked for me. I've been I've been using these pins last 10 years or so. And I really, I find that they work well for me. So I do my lantis at night, once once a night, I wish I could draw up like a typical game day for you unfortunately, like they're not none of them are typical there every day is different. And, you know, we play seven o'clock games, we play one o'clock games, we play three o'clock games, you know, we play in New York on East Coast time we play in Oakland, obviously, we play you know, we're in different time zones throughout the year. So really, if, if there's a typical day, it's that I'm changing something. And you know, we're exposed to different foods in the clubhouse, you know, we get fed really well in a clubhouse, but there aren't exactly nutrition, nutritional labels on everything that we eat, you know, it's a lot of like, catered food that that's brought in, and you just, it's a lot of it is a guessing game. So that being said, You know, I do try my best to, you know, maintain some sort of routine and as best as I can. So if it's a night game, which I'd say about two out of three games that we play or night games, I'll just try to have like a, you know, oatmeal is like my go to in the morning. I love oatmeal, maybe a little fruit in the morning. And then sort of snack is needed until lunchtime. And I'll I love going to like a turkey sandwich with some fruit, maybe some vegetables and hummus, something like that pregame and then play at seven and then we eat after. I mean, we haven't crazy when you're diabetic or not. We are on a crazy schedule. You know, your launch is like five o'clock and your dinner is 11 o'clock at night.   Stacey Simms  14:20 My son would think that sounds fantastic. You definitely have dinner at lunch or dinner at five and then dinner lunch again. Yeah,   Sam Fuld  14:28 that's great. Until the next day, you have to wake up at like seven eight o'clock game and then you're back to like normal life. So yes.   Stacey Simms  14:35 Do you just test a lot more? Do you check a lot more?   Sam Fuld  14:37 Yeah, I tend to I mean yeah, whenever Yeah, I think I mean I test a lot regardless, but I particularly during games and yeah, just during the season, I'm checking quite a bit. So you know, typical game, I'll probably check at least three times during the game. I think. On average, I'm up about eight checks per day.   Stacey Simms  14:56 And this is totally nosy so tell me to buzz off is the no pump thing. Comfort thing, or is it also like your, you know, your diving and jumping and running around?   Sam Fuld  15:03 Yeah, I think it's a little of both. You know, I experimented one a couple years ago in an offseason and shoot every kid I talked to loves them, you know, and I hear nothing but great things about them. So I thought I'd give it a shot. I owed it to myself to try it. And I, I definitely found some benefit to it. But I also just didn't like that foreign body attached to me. And I was worried that if I were to wear one during a game, then it would become a bit of a hazard. So yeah, and I think if I were struggling more with my treatment, currently, I would be more compelled to change, but I just don't really comfortable the way.   Stacey Simms  15:39 One of the things I wanted to ask you about. And this is kind of silly, but it's from my son's perspective, I wanted to ask you during his baseball games, and he's 11 years old, we can see because he wears a CGM, that when he's at bat, or when there's a big play, you can watch the adrenaline spike. It's pretty wild. And I'm curious if you have dealt with that kind of thing. And how you deal with perhaps post game highs that are adrenaline highs?   Sam Fuld  16:08 Yeah. Oh, it's really one of the bigger challenges. I mean, especially I, I've had a lot of games where you know, I won't, I won't start, and I'll be on the bench. And all of a sudden, in the eighth inning, I'm called upon a pinch hit. And like, so you go from kind of very relaxed mindset, you know, you try to anticipate these changes being made. So your adrenaline gets going around the sixth seventh inning, you try to get your body loose in case you are called upon. And then but then you just can't predict that sort of that huge adrenaline spike and that blood sugar spike, when you're called upon to pinch it or even pinch Ron, or whatever it may be. And so I mean, I'll be right where I want to be in the low mid one hundreds. And then I got like, 20 minutes later, I mean, 300. And it's unbelievable. Can you just can't it's really tough to control. But yeah, you did you do the best you can. And it's one of those things that just in some ways, it's difficult to combat. And but I'd rather be a little on the high side and on the low side, obviously. So and then, you know, after the games are crazy, because then you get that letdown, essentially, you know, I'll eat an entire meal, a big meal after a game and not even need any novolog just because I've got all that adrenaline wearing off. And then you get those crashes. And you need carbs. Just to keep you aboveboard.   Stacey Simms  17:28 Yeah, it's been an interesting learning experience for us over the years of baseball as he's gone from Little kid playing to bigger kid playing and, you know, the different pressures and things. So he's like, you know, we're all walking science experiments. To some extent, I see   Unknown Speaker  17:42 a lot of data   Stacey Simms  17:44 in your data. And you know, you're the scientist as well. So it's pretty crazy. Let's talk about your camp. This is such a great program. This is the fourth year, you have a camp for kids who play sports, all different kinds of sports. And it's with one of the Tampa hospitals. Tell me about how this came about and what you like about it?   Sam Fuld  18:02 Well, so came about my first year at Tampa, I just got a invitation to come check out the University of South Florida's new Diabetes Center, they just built the center. And they were kind enough to extend an invitation for me to just come check it out and meet the meet the people associated with the, with the center. So I did so I think on an off day that we had, and in Tampa and met all the folks there and and you know, over the last few years, I kind of had it in the back of my mind, this idea of holding a camp diabetes campus sports camp, you know, obviously, what was familiar with the diabetes camps out there. And I thought maybe making it unique to sports, obviously, exercise goes, goes such a long way in regulating type one. So I thought this would be a good idea as I brought up the idea with the USF folks and they loved it. And so within months, we had this first annual sample USF diabetes sports camp. And it was wildly popular. It's like 100 kids, the first year and we did it. And I went out and kind of went on the recruiting trail. You know, it's amazing. I was using like Facebook and LinkedIn, and you name it to find these five coaches, because I wanted all the coaches there to be type one athletes themselves so that all those sports that we offer are coached by type ones themselves who have played at a pretty high level college or even professional. So that part was really fun. I felt like I was recruiting my own little team. And we've, that team has stayed together. Yeah, I think we haven't. We've expanded the number of sports we offer. We have more and more coaches every year. But those that took part in the first year have stayed with us because they know how inspiring the whole weekend is. So   Stacey Simms  19:46 did you look for coaches that were familiar with type one, or did you look for great people to take part and say, Hey, we can teach you the type one stuff?   Sam Fuld  19:52 No, I want to coaches that have type one so all workers have type one. Oh, wow. Yeah. I'd say a couple that we have our are parents of type ones. But other Otherwise, I'd say out of the 15 to 20 coaches that we have, you know, all but two or three are type ones themselves. So I mean, we have a basketball player who played overseas, he's type one we have a great tennis pro Jen king who played, she played in several years opens, and she's type one. And Bill gullickson, ironically, has come   Stacey Simms  20:21 out. Great.   Sam Fuld  20:23 Yeah, so we have an amazing, amazing staff. And we help we partner with the Florida diabetes camps who have been around for a long time and hold camps throughout the state of Florida. And they've been a tremendous help to. So it's been a huge team effort. And it's just been a really, really, it's one of my favorite weekend's of the year and we've grown and I was worried that when I left Tampa to go to Oakland that my camp following would diminish, but it's actually increased. So I think this thing is here to stay.   Stacey Simms  20:51 It's a pretty unique program to have all of those coaches with type one and all of the different sports, do you find that the kids are coming to maybe learn about their sport, but I would guess that there's a lot more going on than just how to take care of your adrenaline level? After Yeah,   Sam Fuld  21:08 yeah, it's everything. You know, I think there's something empowering about just being around so many other type ones. And then you combine that with just the amount of fun that you have playing the sports that you love, you know, the kids get to choose their three favorite sports, and then they play that those three sports all day. And so you have that amount of fun, and you share those stories with one another. And you learn from the coaches and you this, I think there's just like an intangible feeling you get by being around so many other diabetics, and I that's personally that's one of my favorite parts of the campus is being around learning from others. But just that feeling of comfort, you know, you can't really can't put a price on that.   Stacey Simms  21:50 I have a few questions, if you don't mind that I got from Facebook, i Diabetes Connections, because people are always interested in just different ways that you've handled certain situations. So I'm gonna throw a couple at you. But if these are not things you want to answer, you know, just let me know, they're not crazy, but just let me know. Okay. All right, ready? So Bill wanted to know, he said, I'm interested in how the college recruiting process was impacted by type 1 diabetes. Were coaches reluctant to recruit or was it a non factor? And I'll jump in and add that you played for Stanford? And to that question, then do you disclose that you have diabetes when you're going through shifts? I mean, that's kind of an interesting issue. So I'll let you answer the question.   Sam Fuld  22:30 Yeah, I was lucky enough. As far as I know, I don't think it was a concern. I mean, I was there recruiting a whole scene 15 years ago, or whenever it was, when I was being recruited, it was a little different than it was now. And by no means was I, you know, withholding any information. I was certainly open with my type one. And as far as I know, it was a non issue. It may have been, and I just didn't know about it. But I mean, Stanford recruited me and as far as I know, they they had zero experience with type one ballplayers. So you know, it wasn't like they had this great example of another type one player who was a perfectly great player with with no issues. I was a new experience for them. But it didn't prevent them from recruiting me. So I, again, there was one instance where when I was at Stanford, and I met with a Baltimore Orioles Scout, and this is my senior year in college, and for those of you don't know, in college baseball, you're eligible to be drafted by a major league organization after your junior year. And so I was drafted by the Cubs after my junior year and went back to school my senior year. But in talking with this Oreo Scout, he was saying, Yeah, we wanted to draft him last year. But you know, we were worried about the diabetes. That kind of threw me off a little bit. And that's kind of my one story of somebody like just outright telling me Yeah, we were had some reservations, because you're type one, but otherwise, I am free of any crazy stories.   Stacey Simms  23:54 That's good. That's weird that he would tell you why not just your mouth.   Sam Fuld  23:59 But I'm glad he did. Yeah.   Stacey Simms  24:02 Exactly. It does happen, obviously. And then the other questions, we had a bunch of questions about pumps, which we're not going to ask, but you know, mostly, how do I keep it on my body when I'm sweating? And then how do you manage the delayed hypo reaction to exercising and you mentioned, you're usually eating and not treating? Is that what you usually do?   Sam Fuld  24:20 Yeah, like I said, I mean, it sometimes it means I eat a big meal and don't even give myself any novolog until a little bit later, or it's kind of as needed. Yeah, it's, I'll have like a big plate of pasta and not need a single unit. So, you know, I like anything. It's, it's a matter of regular checks. And, you know, it's, like I said, every day every night is different. You know, the amount of food, the amount of exercise, the stress level, everything is there's always the variables change every day. So the way to combat that is to check as often as you can.   Stacey Simms  24:54 Well, we're talking to you before the camp we're talking to you in the beginning of February here and This podcast will air in a couple of weeks. And when it does, it'll be just about time if not just past time for pitchers and catchers to report on what are you looking forward to this season?   Sam Fuld  25:10 Well, I think I'm, I'm excited for, you know, bounce back here, I think individually and team wise, we had a down year, we had some expectations last year, and we didn't meet them, and we just couldn't seem to catch a break. So I'm looking forward to maybe catching a couple breaks on the positive side and individually just looking to contribute and have a better year individually. And yeah, it's a it's a good group of guys. And I think we're gonna sneak up on some people. We We definitely, we had a frustrating year last year, but I think we're gonna be what will surprise   Stacey Simms  25:40 some people this year. Cool. And let me just end by asking you, we started by talking about you at age five or six, you know, getting into baseball, and being excited about it. What's it like when you now and that first game of the season, or maybe that first practice when you walk on the field? Is it still a little unreal? Or is this just another day of work?   Unknown Speaker  26:01 No, there's   Sam Fuld  26:01 still a feeling of, wow, this is my job, I get to go out and play baseball. You know, there are definitely moments during the year where that wears off. Especially here in the years like last year. No, I think we remind we try to remind each other like, despite all the challenges that that playing presents, the stress and the travel and the expectations, I think we do remind each other we do a good job of saying Holy cow, we get to do this for a living. So this is never you know, that first day getting put on a uniform, be outside and you didn't sign a few hours, things like signing autographs and knowing that there are fans out there who are supporting you. It's a pretty cool moment, despite having this will be like my 13th year or 12th year in professional baseball so it doesn't get old.   Stacey Simms  26:49 Was there anything you wanted to mention anything about camp or anything else that I missed?   Sam Fuld  26:52 No, I think no, the camp obviously is near and dear to my heart. And the other event that I've got going on now is a partner with a nonprofit called slam diabetes who primarily old wiffle ball tournaments as fundraisers for for camps throughout the country. And so I partnered with them and we did a two was a lot of tournaments now in Tampa. And they're really cool. If you get a chance to check it out. It's slam T one D org. And we do some really cool tournaments. They do a bunch of the New England and have now expanded down to Florida partnering with me and we raise money for my camp so that we can keep our camp tuition really low and add to the many features that the camp provides. It's a really cool thing we've you know, last this last tournament we had in Tampa, we had 16 teams, so it's a big tournament we raised up to right around $60,000 so it's a pretty cool event. We had about 2020 big leaguers come out and play with us and it's pretty fun to see a major leaguer. You know, we had Josh Donaldson out MVP of the American League last year who's striking out against the 12 year old. So it's a pretty fun event. It's I definitely encourage you guys to check it out.   Stacey Simms  28:04 We will well Sam Fuld, thank you so much for joining me today. Really appreciate your time.   Sam Fuld  28:09 Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.   Unknown Speaker  28:16 You're listening to Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms.   Stacey Simms  28:22 More information about Sam on the legend, the video at Diabetes connections.com. And, of course all about the camp as well. Quick note, it says on their website that the 2021 camp will be held virtually, and you never know what other celebrity tnd athletes will stop by. That's what it says on their website. So you can find out more at that link. I think this is fantastic. It's really too bad that everything's virtual right now. But it is a terrific way to connect. And as we've seen, listen to look on the bright side, you can connect with many more people who are available virtually, who may not have been able to travel to the camp. So that's one way to look at it. Listening back to that interview just kind of made me nostalgic for the time when Benny played baseball. That was his big sport when he was younger elementary school and I think the first year into middle school maybe into seventh grade but i think i think sixth grade was his last year of baseball. I mean diabetes wise, I loved baseball, there was so much downtime, so easy to treat if he needed to. He got his Dexcom in fourth grade I'll never forget this is before share. He had his receiver in you know case and we would hang it from the wire is called wiring, you know what I mean? Looks like netting but the wiring at the dugout and we would hang it on that with a clip. So I could walk over and check it. You didn't get shared till the end of fifth grade. So that was a different story in a different time for the things you remember. And baseball was just a lot of fun. I mean, not even memories of diabetes, just all the good times and the great friends that he made and you know still talks about and hangs out with to this day. Looking ahead next week. I am working on an episode that should be out next week. If not, it will be out shortly about COVID vaccine type one advocacy. We've been talking about this in the Facebook group, it is different in every state and many states are changing where they're tier type one, it's going up. It's coming sooner for many people in many places with the type one, but not everywhere. So if you are curious about this, we're going to talk about how to find the information where you live. And if you're not happy about it, what you can do to advocate for yourself or your family member, you know, and find out what's going on behind the scenes in terms of advocacy. So I'm really excited to bring that to you. And that should be here next week. Thank you as always to my editor john, because from audio editing solutions, thank you so much for listening. I hope you're enjoying these classic episodes. I'm having so much fun for me them to you. I'm Stacey Simms. I'll see you back here next week. Until then, be kind to yourself.   Benny  30:52 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Simms Media. All rights reserved. All wrongs avenged

Reach Bill at:  w.hughes@verizon.netTRANSCRIPTION:Diane Dayton  0:02  This is Changing the Rules. A podcast about designing the life you want to live, hosted by KC Dempster and Ray Loewe, the luckiest guy in the world.KC Dempster  0:11  Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Changing the Rules. I'm KC Dempster. And I'm here with Ray Loewe in the wonderful Wildfire Podcasting Studios in beautiful downtown Woodbury, New Jersey.Ray Loewe  0:26  Yeah, remember that wonderful?KC Dempster  0:28  Well, that's why I put it in there. It's all that alliteration.Yes, yes. So good morning, this morning, we're going to speak with an old friend, Bill Hughes. And he's got a lot of interesting things to say. So what's up Ray?Ray Loewe  0:31  Well, it's it is alliteration. But it actually is wonderful. Because when we started podcasting, about a year ago, we had no clue as to what was going on. And without the people here at Wildfire Podcasting Studios, we just wouldn't have had a clue. I'm not sure we. We have a clue now. But we have leadership to take us through. That's true. So wildfire has done a wonderful job for us.Well, Bill Hughes is a longtime acquaintance. He's a longtime friend, maybe a little less longtime friend, but a longtime friend. And on he very definitely is one of the luckiest people in the world, because he designs his own life personally. And then he lives it the way he wants to live it. And one of the interesting things about Bill is that he doesn't always seem certain that he is one of the luckiest people in the world. But but that's because he is always searching to find out who he is so that he can be better. And he is certainly on this journey. And because it's on its journey, that's what locks him in is one of the luckiest people in the world. So Bill, whether you like it or not, you're here and you are. So say hello, and introduce yourself quickly. And let's start talking.Bill Hughes  2:03  Well, I'm Bill Hughes, and I'm here and I am considered one of the luckiest people in the world. As write me, and you acknowledge it this morning, this is this is a really good start.Ray Loewe  2:14  Okay. So So, Bill Hughes, I've known for 30, some years, he has always been a mentor to me and kind of a coach to me. And I think the difference the difference between mentor and coaches, coaches get paid mentors do it for free so you're a mentor BillYeah, let's keep it that way. And let's start with with an interesting concept about you, because you're an outstanding coach, who always believes he needs a coach. Yes, so comment on that a little bit?Bill Hughes  2:52  Well, there's very few people in this world that I've run into, that can self coach, because it's so easy to lie to yourself, hmm. And if you really want to make progress, you need an accountability partner. And if you can find somebody skilled in the field of coaching, to help you with that, in your particular direction, I think you'll find a lot more success than if you try and do it on your own. And to be a coach. It's difficult, I think, to advocate for coaching, if you are unwilling to be coached.KC Dempster  3:24  Yeah, there there, there is a certain resistance on some people's part because they secretly think that they don't really need it.Ray Loewe  3:30  Yeah, they know it all. And, and, and it's not knowing it all, it's not the skill set as much as the accountability. So so let's keep that in mind as we go through our conversation today. Because that, that's one of the keys that you bring to the table. One of the things I know about you is that you are always searching to dig deeper into who you are, and why you're here. So you have any comments on that at all?Bill Hughes  4:00  Well, yeah, it's a it's been a constant Trek, no matter what I think if you stop growing, then you're dead. So as I see it anyway, it's a it's a pursuit that pretty much everybody is on whether they realize it or not. You're not the same person, you were 10 minutes ago, let alone 10 years ago. So that's, that's something I think that has a great deal of, of gravity in and of itself. I've read most of the, the, the classics that talk about the inner thought and how one should one should be and, and it's just a great way to start because you figure, anybody that puts pen to paper and writes a book or a series of books on the topic, they've clearly put some life into it. And why reinvent the wheel when it's so much easier to hear what somebody else has to say. about it. And then at some point, I think everybody has a book get him somewhere. It's just a matter of putting pen to paper. So I'm still looking, because I think there's so much more I need to know.Ray Loewe  5:13  I think I think you're there Bill write the book. Okay, so we had a pre interview a while ago, and you made a bunch of statements, and I wrote them all down. And we're gonna kind of go through them. But the one I'd like to start with is that you made a comment that most people self select out of being the luckiest people in the world.Bill Hughes  5:37  It's true, I think, I think that it's, like I said, about the coaching thing and having an accountability partner. How many times has somebody come to you and said, Well, that was really great, or they they acknowledged some aspect of you that stands out. And you immediately take the line of humility by saying, Oh, no, no, it's just the way things are. And, again, that's the start of setting up the boundaries so that you don't have to test the water and go somewhere where it might be a little bit more, more or less unclear as to what you're going to get when you when you get there. So I think people always are challenged by their expectations. And if their expectations for themselves, or rather limited, then that's as far as they're going to go. Well,KC Dempster  6:30  don't you also think that there's there is a definite personality within certain people that is so change resistant, that they even though they they think that they want to be something else, or someone else, they're they're totally unwilling to embrace what they have to do to get there. And that's what I how I just defined self selecting out.Bill Hughes  6:55  Yeah, that there's, there's a lot, there's a lot there, because again, we are an ensemble of belief systems. And depending on how deeply ingrained those are, in your own personal system, are going to determine whether or not you can challenge some of those things and think about something else. And think about what other possibilities might be.Ray Loewe  7:15  Well, and this is why I think you need a coach in life, I have a coach, okay, actually, I have multiple coaches, and I keep changing them and getting new ones. And it's not because one is bad. It that, You have changing needs, and you have changing time periods in your life where you need different skill sets and different thought processes. So so let's go through a couple of things that distinguish you as a coach, I think and not all of them are coaching kind of things. But let me go through them and get your comments on them. As far as self selecting out of being the luckiest people in the world, one of your comments that you always bring up is that you always have a choice choice. Right? Absolutely. And yet, I think a lot of us don't think we have a choice sometimes so. So why do you always have a choice? And how do you latch on to that and as part of your life, so that you always have fresh options in front of you?Bill Hughes  8:16  Well, the the comment that you always have a choice is true to the extent that if you self select out, you've made a choice. Right? Oh, you're making a choice. Right? And all I'm suggesting is that you can choose something else if if you desire to do so because you do have that choice. And then the question always comes back as to what the ramifications are of those choices. And again, that's something that you can explore with an accountability person, whether it's a mentor or a coach, or however you want to go about it, but at the same time, I think that that that really makes the the argument that you always have a choice because those choices that you have selected, whether they be confining, and within the boundaries of what you understand to be the outcomes you desire. They are still choices all the same.KC Dempster  9:11  Yeah, I used to I think I mentioned in the, in our call last week that with my children, if I told them to do something and they didn't do the do it. I tried to point out to them that they just made a choice, and they've chosen the consequences. And they you know, I hope they got it they didn't seem to get it then but maybe as they got more mature they didRay Loewe  9:31  well and the other thing is if you don't like your coach, you can always upgrade to the psychiatrist realm of things here too. Okay, so so you just said so many really good things. Let me hit you with another one that you brought up. And and that is what's right is not always what's best. This is pretty deep Bill even for you. It's pretty deep. So So what do you mean and how do we apply this to our lives here?Bill Hughes  9:57  Well, I guess When you think about it, have you ever told a white lie?KC Dempster  10:04  More than likely,Ray Loewe  10:06  and mine are always black liesBill Hughes  10:09  Some people, some people see truth as the absolute, and that that's something that we always have to adhere to. And I think that's something that we can contain within ourselves. But there's times when that may not necessarily be the thing that's called for particularly if somebody's like, somebody's very close to you asks to how they look. Yeah,KC Dempster  10:28  do these pants make me look fat?Bill Hughes  10:30  Right, there you go. The second you move down the path of truth, you are rough that relationship for certain?Ray Loewe  10:40  so much. So you're giving me permission to lie here, Bill? Well, I,Bill Hughes  10:45  you know, I guess that's, that's the the, the, the limitations of our language, I think you have to ascertain, in the circumstances, what is best for the circumstance that you are wrestling with the time. And sometimes what is best is not always what is right.Ray Loewe  11:05  And yet, we overlook that because we're all trying to be perfect people. Right, KC,KC Dempster  11:10  I don't try for perfection anymore. AllRay Loewe  11:12  right. Talk, go go back to this absolute truth piece that we avoid a lot of times, because one of the comments that you made, again, during our pre interview is that the Absolute Truth never changes.Bill Hughes  11:26  That's true.Ray Loewe  11:29  Okay, so how do we wrestle with this, we have this thing called the absolute truth that never changes. We know that sometimes. doing what's right is not always doing what's best. Hi, how do we how do we wrestle with all this in our lives, because this is what our our podcasts are all about. It's about changing the rules. And, and in your coaching experience, I mean, give us some examples of some of the times that you have to coach people to really think about what's right, not what's best, or what's best, not what's right, or whatever.Bill Hughes  12:08  Well, I think it comes down to the constant wrestle we have with integrity, the those kinds of things. So when you are called upon to make a decision that you find yourself in some sort of conflict over. In particular, it could be well, I know from the professional side, I've had, I've witnessed it, where somebody goes in for tax advice, and the tax advice would lean a person in one particular direction, because that is the best the most palatable way to save money on taxes, at the same time of the transaction that they were considering that might violate that might be better to make because of some other thing that has to do, say, with family. An example was the one that I use, which might be beyond the technical scope of this conversation, but that of a family bank as an example. There are very wealthy families that want to do for their kids. And, and they would possibly consider setting up a family bank to do that. And an accountant might go through the roof over something like that, because again, it's not the most tax efficient way to, to preserve one's taxes. So in that particular case, the family decides to go forward with a bank because it's what's best for their family. It may not be what's right for their taxes.Ray Loewe  13:33  Okay, so what you're saying here is that coaching gets to be confusing, and that the Absolute Truth is not always the right thing. It never changes. But do we have to think around this stuff? So sorry. So you had a number of other statements? Right, I've got so many statements, we'll never get through them and I have and the period of time that we have, but you talk about does it feel right, a lot? I guess that's a continuation of the statement you were just trying to make?Bill Hughes  14:03  Right? Well, there are certain social situations too where one has to curtail maybe the direction they might want to go in from the standpoint that they would be stating an absolute truth, but it might be one that would be disruptive in that particular circumstance. It doesn't mean you give up the truth, but it does mean that you might you might hold back on on on your pronouncements if for no other reason to preserve social interaction into a way that's more beneficial in the moment.Ray Loewe  14:41  Okay, when when you're coaching somebody, and I think this is critical, because coaches are all different. What what are the major things that you look for in a client, I'm sure you get clients that you find you can't help sometimes, and yet here you are. You got to realize friendship with them. What do you do in these cases?Bill Hughes  15:04  Well, it depends. I mean, there are circumstances when coaching is the thing that's really required where you might need something that is a little bit more therapeutic, in which case, sitting down with a psychologist or a psychiatrist might be a better opportunity. There, there are times when when in coaching, you encounter a circumstance that, that requires that kind of professional therapeutic approach, in which case, as a coach, you have to recognize when you're in over your head with an individual, and then again, that that the challenge then is how to get them to seek the kind of help that they need to achieve the outcomes that they're really trying to get to realizing again, that there might be something organic that's interfering, and I don't have the tools for that so consequentially, I'll look for somebody else that has a different professional range and area of expertise to, to encourage that individual to pursue that direction as opposed to a coach.Ray Loewe  16:07  Okay, let's change direction a little bit over here. And again, this is all part of the coaching that you go through. And I think what makes you both a good coach and one of the luckiest people in the world, but but you're talking about wrestling with our own boundaries. And I think, I think that's has a lot to do with the luckiest people in the world. So So what do you mean by that and and to go one further, you tallk about feeling safe?Bill Hughes  16:37  Well, the two are not mutually exclusive. Safety, again, is a perception. But as a coach, you want to make the circumstances safe, so the individual can help you help them. And to that extent, safety becomes an extraordinary issue. As far as boundaries are concerned, a lot of those are based on artificial belief systems that we have, where we've been inculcated socially over the years to think a certain way and beliefs are not always true. So that's where my objective with somebody who's got destructive belief systems that that are preventing them from realizing who they are as a human being, to take them a little bit further and get them to test the water outside their, their comfort, their comfort zone as it relates to their belief systems.Ray Loewe  17:29  All right, so I've kind of in my own way, taking you in a convoluted path over here. So so let me let me sum up with some things that, that I think you said today that are significant. Let's start out with the fact that we all need to know who we are. And this is a journey, there's because the situation changes all of the time. One of one of the things that can help us know who we are, is a good coach. And even those of us who are coaches or consider ourselves coaches need coaches. Okay. Am I on the right track? so far? Bill?Bill Hughes  18:07  Yep. so far.Ray Loewe  18:08  Okay. Then there are some things that come into play here. And it seems to me that a lot of the things that we're talking about are not less than necessarily skill, building kinds of things. They're the internal kinds of things that that keep us from doing what we really want to do. So we get in here, we need to remember that we always have a choice and that these choices have consequence, right? Yes. And I think a lot of the way you help people do things here is that people need to realize that what's right is not always what's best. And sometimes we have those little white lies in there that need to be part of part of things. You talk a lot about feelings here and do things feel right. And then we get into this concept of our boundaries. You know, it's this idea of, if we want to be one of the luckiest people in the world, we often have to extend ourselves until we wrestle with these boundaries, because we've had sets of rules that have always bothered us. And to cross the boundary, sometimes you gotta feel safe. And I'm not sure how you do that. But are we on the right track so far? Here?Bill Hughes  19:28  Yeah. So far, I would suggest on the on the safety side. It's always incremental. I mean, you don't just jump into a pool of cold water. When you're getting ready to go into the pool during the summer, you might test it with your feet first. So always take things to a level that allow you to incrementally move forward. So I think that's part of it as well.Ray Loewe  19:49  Okay. So I think you know what, what I'm trying to get out of this thing is you've always been a mentor to me in every state of Your life when you were doing different things at different times, you were always welcome into my office because you always brought unique thought patterns and unique ideas and sometimes unique information. But but i think i think that the real benefit that I've always saw seen in you is these things that we've talked about today. I didn't realize I was getting a coach when you came into my office, but I was okay. because it gave me the idea to bounce off ideas and feelings off of you. And, and they were some of the most valuable things that I think helped us continue over relationship for 30 some years. I mean, it's almost like we're married bill.KC Dempster  20:42  One of the things that I really like is that, that as a coach, Bill said, Sometimes he can't always help, but he hopes to leave things better than he found them.Bill Hughes  20:53  Right? Yeah, that's, that's a, that's a big, that's a, that's a big thing right there. There are times when you cannot remedy the situation. But you can leave it better than you found it so that you, as an example, when I suggest when I can't help somebody in coaching, it may not be that they need to talk to a head shrink, or that sort of thing, it could very well be that they need different kind of coach, in which case, by my directing them into that into that path. I've left them better than I found them on the call. So I didn't just excuse them and and go on to my next, my next phone call, I would typically attempt to leave them something to do to to possibly move the marble a little bit far more forward for themselves.Ray Loewe  21:41  Okay, well, unfortunately, Bill, we are near the end of our time framework here. Is there anything you want to say to kind of sum up because I think your coaching philosophy came out today really well? Any final comment?Bill Hughes  21:55  Yeah, I'd say just just a quote that I've always tried to remember from a mentor coach that I that I took from, more or less a writing, I was not coached by sky directly. Wayne Dyer is an excellent author, if anybody's read any of his stuff at all. But one thing he left him with over the years, it's always served me extremely well, I think might be the best way to sum this up. "When you have a choice between being right or being kind always choose kindness." Hmm. Yeah.Ray Loewe  22:27  And sometimes that means not telling the Absolute Truth. Right?Bill Hughes  22:32  Well, that just simply means doing the best thing at the moment.Ray Loewe  22:36  Okay, great. I think that quote, at the end is the great place to leave. And, you know, thank you for being you. Thank you for being part of our luckiest people in the world community. And we're gonna talk more over the years. So, KC, you want to show up forKC Dempster  22:52  us? Yes, we have a great podcast coming up next week with another old friend. And so it's worth listening to. He's done some very interesting things in his career. And come back next week and meet our new our new guest. Right,Ray Loewe  23:13  everybody have a great week.Diane Dayton  23:16  Thank you for listening to Changing the Rules, a podcast designed to help you live your life the way you want, and give you what you need to make it happen. Join us in two weeks for our next exciting topics on changing the rules with KC Dempster and Ray Loewe the luckiest guy in the world. 

Halloween is around the corner. So Bill, Lora and Sergio decided to take a moment and talk about their favorite found footage horror film — The Blair Witch Project.  In this episode, the gang chats about their first experience watching this unique and one-of-kind film during a time when cell phones were practically non-existent, the internet was barely a household thing and word-of-mouth was an essential marketing strategy.

Get Exclusive Pop Culture Show video interviews, video content and bonus video exclusively from our Instagram. Sign up for our Pop Cult and be the first to get show announcements, free stuff and insider information only available to cult members.Speaker 1 (00:00):Welcome to the Pop Culture Show with Barnes, Leslie, and Cubby. Barnes (00:04):Welcome to episode 22 of the Pop Culture Show Barnes, Leslie, and Cubby. Please rate, review, and subscribe. That's how it keeps us alive, and Cubby, the Pop Culture Show now on the iHeartRadio app and where else? Cubby (00:19):That would be ... Wait, what do you mean where else? Barnes (00:21):Tesla's. Cubby (00:22):Oh, Tesla's. That's right. We give you a hard time because every week you mention it, and now I had a chance and I failed. Leslie (00:29):Are we in Wennebagos? That's all I want to know. Barnes (00:31):Yeah. And coming soon to the Astro Van and also thanks to our listeners in Turks and Caicos. Cubby (00:37):Turks and Caicos, that was my first episode with you guys. And I learned that I was saying it wrong my whole life. Barnes (00:43):That's okay, you're good. How are you guys? Cubby (00:45):Good. Leslie (00:46):Really good. Cubby (00:46):How are you guys feeling? Leslie (00:46):You know what ... Barnes (00:48):I'm good, crazy. Leslie (00:49):I'm wanting to feel better. I want to ask you guys how much water do you drink on a daily basis? Barnes (00:53):Not enough. Cubby (00:53):Not as much as you, girl. Oh my goodness. Leslie (00:57):Several years ago I got kidney stones, and the doctor said, "You need to drown yourself in water." I just forget to drink water, so I bought this, I don't know if you've seen them or not, but it's a gallon jug. You can get it on Amazon, QuiFit, built for life. Barnes (01:11):A QuiFit? Cubby (01:12):What? Leslie (01:13):I don't know. Cubby (01:14):Fram. Leslie (01:17):Is that what's called? Cubby (01:17):A QuiFit? Leslie (01:23):Build life. Barnes (01:24):Fram, do you know what you're saying? Leslie (01:26):No, I don't. I just know I have a gallon jug in front of me. Barnes (01:29):Do you know what a qweef is? Leslie (01:30):No, I don't. Cubby (01:30):You don't? Leslie (01:30):Fit, I said fit. Cubby (01:33):Are you serious? Leslie (01:35):No, what is it? Uh-oh [crosstalk 00:01:41] Cubby (01:41):You don't know what a qweef is? Barnes (01:41):Next. Leslie (01:46):Did I screw up again? Barnes (01:48):Next. Just keep going, just keep going. [crosstalk 00:01:50]. Hold on to your QuiFit. Leslie (01:53):I bought this- Cubby (01:53):Do you drink that gallon in a whole day? Barnes (01:54):Hold it up. Leslie (01:55):Yeah, you start in the morning, and it gives you little inspirational quotes. Cubby (01:59):Oh, it's a Qui-Fit? Leslie (02:01):That's what I said. I said a QuiFit. What is going on here? Barnes (02:10):Oh my God. Leslie (02:11):It starts at 7:00 a.m. good morning, and as you go throughout the day in every two hour increments it's like, "Remember your goal. Keep drinking. No excuses." Anyway, it's a gallon a day. Barnes (02:21):Yeah, do people freak out that you're walking around with a jug with a bunch of writing on it? Leslie (02:26):Well the problem is now is coronavirus so I'm home all day. Barnes (02:29):Oh, that's right. Leslie (02:29):I'm dedicated. Let me see if I can do this for a month. Cubby (02:32):Can we have Leslie look up qweef live just so we can see her reaction when she reads it? Barnes (02:36):Leslie, go ahead. Leslie (02:36):Wait, what is it? Barnes (02:38):Google it. Cubby (02:38):Google it right now. Leslie (02:39):All right, how do you spell it? Cubby (02:40):Q-W-E-E-F. I just did it, and it came right to the top of Google. Leslie (02:40):Q-W- Barnes (02:40):Read us that definition. Leslie (02:40):Q-W-E-F. Cubby (02:45):Q-W-E-E-F. E-E-F. Leslie (02:49):Oh, E-E-F. All right, hold on a second. Barnes (02:53):What's the definition, Fram? Leslie (02:54):It's not what I said. Cubby (03:00):Oh man. I don't know if I can top that. Barnes (03:04):No. Read it, and we'll beep it. Leslie (03:08):I'll never hear the end of this. Barnes (03:09):Read the definition. Leslie (03:12):Flatulence can have causes that aren't due to underlying disease. Cubby (03:18):You don't really have to bleep it. Leslie (03:19):See a doctor if you- Cubby (03:21):It is a medical term. Leslie (03:22):... feel pain during sexual intercourse, pass gas, stool, or ... I can't even read this. Barnes (03:29):I mean, when we publish these they ask us, "Is this explicit?" We're only a few minutes in, and we're already explicit. Leslie (03:36):Thanks a lot. Barnes (03:37):Cubby, how was your week? Cubby (03:38):Well, to tell you the truth I needed that gallon of water Leslie has to put my arm out because my arm caught on fire last week. Leslie (03:47):What? Barnes (03:48):Your arm caught on fire? Cubby (03:49):Not really, so kind of. I had a grilling accident. Before I grill, which I love to grill, before I put the steaks on the grill I clean the grill, and I always put a little cooking oil on it. And then I usually wait a couple of minutes, and then I turn the gas on because it's propane, and then I fire it up. Well, there was some thunderstorms moving in, and I knew my time was limited, so I sprayed the oil on, and then I fired up the propane and didn't wait as long as I probably should have. Barnes (04:16):Wait, did you qweef it? Cubby (04:19):So then I lit the grill, and I had a mushroom cloud over my town. It was like, poof. But my right arm totally all the hair singed off, and you know that nasty smell hair makes. Leslie (04:29):Awful. Cubby (04:31):It is awful, and it just hung around on my arm all night. Finally I said, "Honey, I got to take another shower." It just smelled so bad. So, yeah, a near death grilling experience was the highlight of my week. Barnes (04:40):That was huge. Cubby (04:42):Yeah. Barnes (04:42):I jumped on a plane for the first time since February. Went to Houston for a shoot, and do you know what a mask hole is? Leslie (04:52):No. Cubby (04:53):No, I don't. Barnes (04:54):It's a term. It is an individual who wears a mask in a way that makes it completely ineffective like below the nose, under the chin, or back of the head. Think about that when you see them. There was a maskhole sitting in front of me, and he had the mask covering his mouth, and that was it. Leslie (05:11):Oh boy. Barnes (05:12):And you just want to go, "Dude, really? Do you understand why you're wearing a mask?" And there are arguments whether the masks work or not. But anyway, that's a maskhole. The coronavirus thing seems to be getting worse. Cubby (05:24):It does. Leslie (05:25):Yeah, and it's terrible in Tennessee as you guys know. Barnes (05:28):It's so bad. Leslie (05:29):What's going on in Georgia? Barnes (05:30):Same thing. Between nightly riots, coronavirus- Leslie (05:35):Shootings. Barnes (05:35):... street racing, yeah, all kinds of stuff. Cubby (05:38):Speaking of COVID, actually Steven Mnuchin promises to scale back unemployment benefits in a new $1 trillion coronavirus package, and another round of checks are coming in August of $1,200 so another stimulus coming at you in August. Barnes (05:55):And they're trying to kill ... What you said, they're trying to kill the ... Diminish the, whatever, that $600 unemployment a week or whatever that was because they want to motivate people to get back to work. Cubby (06:03):Correct. Scale back the unemployment benefits to get rid of $600 bonus. Barnes (06:08):But the plane thing was pretty easy. It was an hour and a half to Houston, but there were maybe 20 people on board, and they board from the back of the plane forward, which they should do anyway. And then I got to Houston at 9:03, went to a shoot, was back on the plane by 1:25 and got back to Atlanta. Cubby (06:28):TSA was a breeze. Even though we're all pre-screened, still you don't even need pre-screening anymore, do you? Barnes (06:32):Well I have clear because I'm a diamond medallion and you get it for free if you hit that status with Delta, and so you have clear, but it's funny because there's no one there. You walk up, and it's just ... Cubby (06:42):It's clear everywhere. Barnes (06:43):Yeah, you don't have to touch it, which is great because they use your eyes. So it was pretty painless, anyway. Some announcements, next week on the show Butch Walker, big time producer, former band called the Marvelous 3 out of Atlanta [crosstalk 00:06:58] among other. Leslie (06:59):Huge solo career, yup. Barnes (07:00):Yeah. Among other bands, and solo albums. And the guy writes for people like Taylor Swift, people like that, that don't really do much. Leslie (07:08):One of the nicest guys ever and one of the best live shows ever. Barnes (07:11):Yeah, so we're going to do an on location from his farm in Tennessee. Leslie (07:14):That's right. Barnes (07:14):Everybody but Cubby unless you want to get on a plane. Cubby (07:16):How come I'm not invited? What's up with that? Leslie (07:17):Come on in. Barnes (07:18):You are invited. Come on. Cubby (07:20):Actually, I'm nervous about flying. I don't know why. Not flying itself. I love to fly, but I'm saying I can't get past this whole COVID thing. I'm still a little sheltered. Barnes (07:29):Also in August, Grammy winner Kristian Bush from Sugarland will be on with us, good dude who ranges from Alternative to Country. He can do everything and anything. Leslie (07:39):Also, producing too. Kristian's been doing everything. Barnes (07:42):Also, coming up on today's episode, Goldberg, Bill Goldberg from a secret location at his new bunker in Texas. He is such a great guy. I have a funny story to tell about going up to lunch with him. Leslie (07:58):He's Mr. Motivational. I love that. He's always positive. Barnes (08:01):Always positive. That guy when we would do appearances with him, Cubby, he would show up at whatever to promote like the celebrity softball game we had, and he would stay until every kid got an autograph. And that was at the height of his WWE. Cubby (08:12):I love him already. I love people that are just down to Earth and cool. Barnes (08:16):He's so cool. So Goldberg is coming up. Cubby (08:18):Well, we've talked often how we love our gadgets, and the iPhone 12 is coming, and there are already rumors going around. Now, Leslie you're- Leslie (08:27):I'm a Samsung person. I know, I know. Cubby (08:29):Right, yeah. So you can go ahead and take your headphones off. We don't need you. But Barnes- Leslie (08:33):Okay. What's going on with the 12? Cubby (08:34):Well, every time a new phone comes out there's always rumors going around on how it's going to look and all that. So they're saying it is going to be called iPhone 12. Some people were speculating maybe they're going to just change that up because they keep going in order, but it is going to be called the iPhone 12, and there's going to be four different iPhones. Now, Barnes, you're probably the Pro Max kind of guy, right? Barnes (08:54):I'm already on 14, bro. Leslie (08:55):What? Cubby (08:55):What do you mean? Barnes (08:56):Apple hooks me up. I'm two ahead. Cubby (08:57):Shut up, you're such a liar. Leslie (08:57):What? Barnes (08:58):I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You know these leaks come from Apple. Cubby (09:02):They do to get the hype going, right? Barnes (09:03):Yeah. Cubby (09:04):The iPhone 12, the iPhone 12 Pro, and the 12 Pro Max are the rumors. Apparently they're going to be bringing back the squared edges, which I'm not a huge fan of but ... Barnes (09:18):And metal I heard. Cubby (09:19):Right, around the edges and the corners like iPhone 4 and 5. They're going to be bringing that back. They always say this every time that they have a new phone coming, but apparently the camera is getting better, a new camera. Leslie (09:32):I think we should just all go back to the flip phone. Barnes (09:33):Yeah. Cubby (09:34):Hey, they've come back too. Barnes (09:35):Totally have, StarTech's. Cubby (09:36):They really have. Also, according to the rumors the iPhone 12 the 5G seems inevitable. 2020 is prime to be a big year for the rollout of 5G, and a lot of people are wondering if iPhones are going to support 5G, and it looks like it will. One more thing, look for a very powerful charger. You're going to be charging in no time. Barnes (09:57):They may be changing it, Cubby, right? They're going to change possibly from lightning to the C. Cubby (10:01):The braided lightning charging cables. Barnes (10:04):Oh, the braided one? Cubby (10:05):Yeah. Barnes (10:05):And then there's a rumor that they may not give you the cable with the phone. Cubby (10:08):Which is another way to make money, right, because you have to buy it. Barnes (10:10):Yeah, I'm assuming. It's getting ridiculous. Leslie (10:13):Apple loves to do that. Barnes (10:14):I'm surprised they're releasing it, and they're saying September 5th. I'm surprised they're doing it. Cubby (10:18):No. Barnes (10:18):No, not the fifth. Cubby (10:19):No, I'm already hearing mid-October all because of COVID. And that could be right. Again, this is the rumor mill. Barnes (10:26):I heard mid-October was laptops, and then the phones were coming in September. But I could be wrong. They always do it around that date, but during COVID when people are strapped for cash who is going to buy a $1,500 phone? Cubby (10:38):Right. Barnes (10:39):All right, show me some sleaze, Fram. Leslie (10:41):Well, the world lost a TV icon. Regis Philbin dying at the age of 88. I don't know if you guys saw this or not, but Letterman had just such an amazing tribute to him. He said he was like the Johnny Carson of television, the master communicator. Do you know that Letterman had him on more than any other guest, up to I think 130 to 150 times. Regis was his number one guest. Barnes (11:08):I was just surprised. I don't know why, he's 88. I don't know why I was so shocked to see it, that story come across. Cubby (11:14):Because we didn't hear he was sick. Leslie (11:15):He held the world's most ... According to the Guinness Book of World Records, he was on TV more than anybody else, guess how many hours? Cubby (11:24):Oh my god, 20,000, I don't know. Leslie (11:26):Yeah, 16,700 hours. It's really funny because last year I had a chance to talk to Kathie Lee Gifford because she moved to Nashville. That was an era on television where they were master story tellers, and she couldn't have said enough amazing things about Regis. Cubby (11:41):I can't believe you're talking about this, Leslie, because coming up later when I do my pop this week in pop culture I have a whole thing with Kathie Lee, and her final episode was actually this week 20 years ago. But I have the audio of her signing off, so listen for that coming up here in a few minutes. Leslie (11:56):Really crazy week with Kanye West and the Twitter rants that he had. It's sad because he suffers ... He's bipolar, and a lot of people are really upset and concerned about his mental health, but he did come out over the last 48 hours and apologize to his wife, Kim Kardashian. "I want to say I know I hurt you. Please forgive me. Thank you for always being there for me," because he accused her of many things, locking him up and being a white supremacist for apparently doing what she wasn't supposed to do which was speak about him publicly. Barnes (12:28):Little late on that apology, just a little. The damage might be done. Leslie (12:31):He said that Kris Jenner was Kris Jong-un like Kim Jong-un. Yeah, it was really sad, but apparently now he's apologizing. We'll see what happens. Justin Bieber went and visited him out in Colorado. Barnes (12:42):Well that should make everything better. Leslie (12:45):Yeah it should ... Speaking of the Jenners, Kylie, 22-year-old Kylie was you know is a billionaire, right? She has her own cosmetic company. She bought her daughter, Stormy, her dream pony that cost $200,000. Cubby (12:56):That's in their cup holder, probably in the car, $200,000. Leslie (13:01):Yeah, and she paid an extra $7,000 to $10,000 to fly the pony from LA to The Netherlands or from the Netherlands, and the pony is now in coronavirus, the pony is now in quarantine. Barnes (13:14):Wouldn't you like to be a supplier to them because you know you could just 10X whatever you're selling, 10 to 20X whatever the price is. Like how much is it? A friend of mine has a place called Classic Collision in Atlanta, and I went to go pick up a car one time, and one of their cars was there because he had the only shade of the specific blue that they were painting the Bentley. So they shipped the Bentley to him. They painted this Bentley this ridiculous powder blue, and then it goes back to them. These people just throw money around. Cubby (13:44):What are we doing wrong? Barnes (13:45):It's unreal. Leslie (13:45):200,000 though for her is like, what, 200 to us maybe. Cubby (13:49):I know. Leslie (13:49):Because she's a billionaire. Barnes (13:51):It starts with a sex tape, people. Leslie (13:54):Is that the key? That's the secret. Barnes (13:56):That's the secret. Cubby (13:56):Well that's how you and Leslie started your whole thing. Leslie (13:59):Yeah, exactly. Cubby (13:59):Back in the early '90s. Leslie (14:01):Let me just say this. One of the most heart wrenching things has been reading the Instagram posts from Orlando Bloom who is destroyed over losing his dog. Latest post, he did get a tattoo of his dog, Mighty, on his chest. "Mighty's on the other side now after seven days of searching from sunrise to sunset into the wee hours today, the seventh day we found his collar." It's a really long post, but it's really heart warming, and he basically searched the neighborhood. Every nook and cranny, but he just went on to say that they just had this amazing bond. Were you following those Instagram posts? Cubby (14:40):I was, I was, and I kept thinking well new baby coming soon, so there's a lot going on in their house. I was wondering when ... Isn't Katie due any moment now? Leslie (14:50):Yeah, so you think the hormones were hitting him? Cubby (14:52):Yeah, it probably was. Barnes (14:54):It's like corona, within six feet. Leslie (14:57):Now you guys know I've been obsessed with the Johnny Depp trial, but the funny thing this past week ... And he's been accusing her of having all these affairs, but his nicknames for people. He called Leonardo DiCaprio Pumpkin Head, and he called Channing Tatum, Potato Head, so it's really funny to hear what Johnny Depp says about all these other actors he thought Amber was having an affair with. I'm so into it. Barnes, Big Brother All-Stars premiering August fifth, the COVID-19 edition. Barnes (15:29):Oh yes, all-stars, 20th season. Leslie (15:32):You are such a Big Brother fan. I never got it. Cubby (15:35):[inaudible 00:15:35]. Do you watch it live or do you DVR it and catch up? Barnes (15:37):Are you kidding? I'm only, like, 10 minutes behind so I can miss the commercials, or 15 minutes, but no I watch it the night it ... You know when it came out it was on every night of the week originally. Cubby (15:45):I remember that. That was like what, '02. Barnes (15:48):Ish, yeah. And then it went to three nights a week I think, and now it's three or four. I'm there every night that it's on. You'll have to ... This is the time to get on, which quickly interject. Give me something to watch on Netflix, Leslie. Leslie (15:59):There's a ton of stuff. Barnes (16:01):I asked for one. Give me two, give me two things. Leslie (16:03):Okay. I'm going to give you two things, one that I just finished that I'm obsessed with, The Last Dance, about the Bulls and Michael Jordan. Barnes (16:10):Way to be on top of that, Fram, that's so March COVID. Cubby (16:13):Yeah. Leslie (16:13):Well it's new to Netflix so a lot of people are actually watching it now that didn't see it on ESPN. Fear City, about the Mafia in New York in the '70s and '80s. Barnes (16:22):I'm watching that. Leslie (16:23):What do you think so far? Barnes (16:24):It's good. It's very good. It's talking about how the Mafia, they're comparing it to some of the other cities right now like Chicago and Atlanta where all the crime is happening. It's where they're trying to take the city back, and New York was just so bad. And it goes through the five crime families. It's quite interesting. Leslie (16:38):Now, are your wives into chick flicks? Barnes (16:40):I only have one. Leslie (16:41):Well, Cubby is on the show too. Cubby (16:43):I'm on the show too. Barnes (16:44):Oh, I thought you were talking to me still. You're like, "Are your wives." I moved from Salt Lake City ... No, I never lived there. Cubby (16:51):My wife, Cocoa, we watch Married at First Sight. Barnes (16:55):Oh, that's good. See, you get on me for watching Big Brother, but you watch Married at First Sight. Cubby (16:59):Well Big Brother is just kind of played out to me, but Married at First Sight, 90-Day Fiance, and they have like a million 90 days. Barnes (17:05):I heard that's great. Cubby (17:06):You have 90-Day The Other Way, 90-Day This Way, 90-Day That Way. There's a million 90 Days but they're good. Leslie (17:11):Yeah, because Kissing Booth 2 is on Netflix. Barnes (17:13):Oh God. Cubby (17:14):Leslie, what do all your husbands watch? Leslie (17:18):Well, we love a lot of dramas, seriously love dramas. But I will tell you he did like The Crown, and it is coming back but not until 2022 because of COVID. Cubby (17:30):Everything's COVID. Leslie (17:30):It's unbelievable. Barnes (17:31):I have a good one for you both on Netflix. I told you about Liar, and you haven't watched it yet, Leslie, because you would have told me you did, and you're missing out. Leslie (17:39):I haven't watched it yet. Barnes (17:39):Cubby, do you have Netflix? You do right? Cubby (17:41):I do. We don't have time with the baby, but yeah. Barnes (17:43):I give you more of a break than Leslie. Liar is good, but you want to skip right to another British I would call it Liar meets The Affair, which The Affair I loved on- Leslie (17:54):I loved The Affair on Showtime. Barnes (17:54):Okay, okay, we're connecting Leslie. Leslie (17:57):I loved that show. Okay, go ahead. Barnes (17:58):Watch Doctor Foster. I believe there's two seasons. Doctor Foster, it's a woman who believes her husband is having an affair. First episode will get you, especially the last 15 minutes. Leslie (18:09):Okay. Barnes (18:09):You need to watch Doctor Foster on Netflix. Cubby (18:12):There's something I want to say about all these shows. Everybody wants to recommend shows to their friends, and then the friends always say, "I'll put it on my list," but there is no list. Barnes (18:21):Yeah, there is. Cubby (18:22):Everyone's lying when they say that. "I'll put it on my list." There's too much to watch. Barnes (18:26):No, but there's the Netflix list. Cubby (18:28):No, but I'm saying you're passionate about something. You're trying to sell Leslie on watching the show. Leslie will say, "All right, I'll put it on my list," but Leslie will you ever get to it? Leslie (18:37):Well here's the thing. Most of the stuff I've been watching lately have been recommendations from people like Barnes about The Last Dances, Billions. A lot of stuff have been recommendations, and then of course I fall in love with these shows and then I'm obsessed with them. Cubby (18:50):Right. Barnes (18:51):Get into ... You can go back to Liar, but I think you should skip ahead to Doctor Foster. Leslie (18:54):All right, I can do that. Barnes (18:55):And then you'll want to watch ... They're very different, but similar tone. They're UK. Leslie (19:00):Have you guys ... Have you watched anything on Quibi? Barnes (19:05):No, I'm not buying into the hype. Leslie (19:06):Because now Samuel L. Jackson and Ryan Reynolds are partnering for something on Quibi. I haven't watched anything on there yet. I know a lot of people are excited that Shark Week is coming back on Discovery August 9th, and then there's SharkFest. Barnes (19:20):Turks and Caicos. Leslie (19:21):On Nat Geo. How did this happen? Happy 40th birthday to Caddyshack. Cubby (19:28):They actually had it on over the weekend. AMC was airing it. They had a marathon on. It was great, with the 40th logo on there, it was pretty cool. Audio (19:34):I want you to kill every gopher on the course. Audio (19:38):Check me if I'm wrong, Sandy, but if I kill all the golfers they're going to lock me up and throw away the key. Audio (19:45):Gophers, [inaudible 00:19:45] not golfers. The little brown, furry rodents. Audio (19:47):We can do that. Cubby (19:48):Such a classic. Great clip by the way, but come on, you didn't have Rodney. Rodney was ... Barnes (19:54):No, I just thought it was so overplayed. Rodney's always the clip. Leslie (19:57):This is really strange, I didn't realize this by the little bit of trivia. Harold Ramis had realized that his two biggest stars never appeared together, so I guess they had lunch one day and wrote a little scene so that Bill Murray and Chevy Chase could appear together. And then he also said that originally he wanted the theme to be all Pink Floyd. Of course, I don't know if that would've worked out. Cubby (20:16):Wow. Barnes (20:16):That'd be strange. Leslie (20:17):Dark Side of the Moon instead of I'm All Right by Kenny Loggins. And finally, this is not going away. Lifetime is now getting into the Jeffrey Epstein business. Yup, they got a movie coming out, the Jeffrey Epstein Movie. Barnes (20:32):So they got something completely different than the Netflix thing? Leslie (20:34):Yeah, they're going to talk about some of the survivors. Audio (20:37):I was 19. He began to touch me aggressively. It quickly turned into an assault. Audio (20:42):He forced oral sex on me right there. And the more I kept trying to resist the more fun he was having. Audio (20:48):I was 14. I told him to stop. He told me, "I'll stop if you just take your underwear off." Audio (20:54):He want's to do whatever he wants to do. Audio (20:55):At 16 what happens if I say no. Audio (20:58):I'm going to fight back. Audio (20:59):Chilling firsthand accounts from those who lived it. Surviving Jeffrey Epstein, a two night event, premiers Sunday, August 9th at 8:00, only on Lifetime. Leslie (21:09):And there's your celebrity sleaze. Barnes (21:11):Let's talk music quickly. Some people dropped some stuff this week, and I want to play you a couple of clips so you're in the know of what's going on in the music landscape, the biggest one being Taylor Swift with a surprise album. Leslie (21:21):Huge. Barnes (21:22):She was hunkered down during corona and created this album over that time, and the numbers are unbelievable. That Cardigan video got 20 million views in one day. They sold 1.3 million in one day. Spotify 80 million streams. That's a record by a female artist in one day. Apple Music 35 million streamed. That's a record. Leslie (21:47):Again, folklore, and I'll tell you it just proves again what a great songwriter she is. Barnes (21:51):So I went to ... I called my daughter because if you want to get to the source of what's good on the Taylor Swift you call the daughter who is 18, and I said, "Okay." She lives and breathes if Taylor does something she's on it. I said, "What's the best song?" She said to me the best song was The Last Great American Dynasty, and here's a clip. Taylor Swift (22:12):(singing) Barnes (22:42):So she says that's the best on. Cubby (22:44):It kind of reminds me of Jewel in a weird way. Barnes (22:46):Ish. Cubby (22:47):That Jewel sound, which is not a slam. I love Jewel, but Taylor is huge as we all know. It just has that 1996 Jewel feel. Barnes (22:55):I listened to the whole album, Folklore, and I thought it was ... It's super chill for sure. I mean she's- Leslie (23:00):I think that's the best song on the record too, that and Cardigan, so I agree with your daughter, Barnes. Barnes (23:04):There you go. Maybe she's a music in the making, a music director. Leslie (23:06):Yeah, A&R Director. Cubby (23:08):I was reading that she did all this during quarantine because I had heard she had a lot of stuff stockpiled from past work like in the last year, and I thought for sure she just put this out with all the extras she never got to, but apparently this is all in the last few months. Leslie (23:24):Brand new. Cubby (23:24):Yeah, brand new. Leslie (23:24):I liked the Lover record too. Cubby (23:25):Yeah, it was great too. Barnes (23:26):Some more new music that dropped, August Alsina. You know that name because that is the dude that was in the entanglement with what's her name. Leslie (23:34):Jada Pinkett Smith. Barnes (23:35):Yeah. What's weird, guys, and I said this when we first reported on that when it came out, that August Alsina the name of this song is Entanglements. She made a point when Will Smith was talking about her being in a situation she called it an entanglement and corrected him. And I thought all along this was some big weird marketing play. What's going on here? Leslie (23:55):So you don't think he wrote this right after she said entanglement? Barnes (23:58):No. Leslie (23:58):You think this song was kind of in the can for a while? Barnes (24:00):No. He's been working on this album for two or three years. Leslie (24:03):Yeah. It's strange. Barnes (24:04):It's just strange that she's trying to make things better, and she's like, "No, it was an entanglement, E-N-T-A-N-G ..." Yeah, listen. Here, I have two clips. This is very weird. There are mentions about her and Will Smith. Rick Ross raps on this, so I kind of dig the rap. But here's one of the hooks from Entanglement. August Alsina (24:34):(singing) Cubby (24:34):So, it seems fishy. Barnes (24:36):It seems fishy. Even more fishy, listen to the Rick Ross rap. Tell me how many ... Listen closely. Tell me how many Will Smith things you hear in here. Rick Ross (24:46):(singing) Barnes (25:20):See. There's a few of them in there. Will power, and he talked about The Matrix. Remember when Will Smith was up for The Matrix and didn't get it. Cubby (25:29):Yeah. Barnes (25:30):Just strange. Leslie (25:30):I do think that Will Smith ... By the way, I love him as an actor. I think he loves to control the narrative. They both do. And I think they're trying to say, "Everything's okay." Barnes (25:40):But they're up to something. Cubby (25:41):Yeah. They're trying to get us all talking. Leslie (25:44):There have been questions about that marriage for years. Barnes (25:47):Must be a cut. Blake Shelton and Gwen Stefani who if there was ever like, "Ooh, that gross happy couple," it is them. They are just so in love it is oozing from every wall. They put this out, this song called Happy Anywhere. Tell me what the problem is here, okay. This is Blake Shelton and Gwen Stefani. Listen to this clip and tell me what is missing. Again, this is Blake Shelton and Gwen Stefani, Happy Anywhere. Tell me what's missing. Speaker 17 (26:12):(singing) Barnes (26:33):What's missing? Leslie (26:35):Gwen. Cubby (26:36):Yeah. Barnes (26:36):Gwen Stefani. Her mix is so buried. Cubby (26:38):Right. You can barely hear her. Leslie (26:40):It's on Blake's new record, but I can tell you that the video, we premiered it on CMT and MTV premiered the video it's adorable. They're at his complex. They are in love. Let me just say that, in love. Barnes (26:53):We need to get him on the show, Fram. Come on. Leslie (26:55):He's a really good guy, but he's so busy. Barnes (26:57):I don't care. Leslie (26:57):Now obviously he does two seasons of The Voice every year, but he did this- Barnes (27:02):Come on. Leslie (27:02):Let me ask you about this. He did this Encore, you know the company that's doing all the drive-in concerts. He did the drive-in concert over the weekend. Gwen appeared as well and some other Country artists, but 300 drive-in theaters around the country, but it's a pre-taped concert. It was $100 a car, so you go in- Barnes (27:20):Why would you pay that? Leslie (27:21):It's $100 a car, so you can have six people in the car. Sold out everywhere, 300 drive-ins to see a taped concert. That's what the new norm is now. Garth Brooks did it. Would you go to a drive-in for a pre-taped. Barnes (27:34):No. Leslie (27:34):Unless it was something you just wanted to have some fun with your friends. Cubby (27:37):Why so expensive? Why was it 100 bucks? Leslie (27:38):Per car. Cubby (27:40):Per car. Oh, because you could have, like, five people in the car. Leslie (27:43):You could have up to six people in a car. Cubby (27:44):Oh, I get it. Right. Barnes (27:44):Get money, get paid. The last one we talked about Taylor Swift is so great at re-inventing herself. Every single time she puts out an album she takes a turn and goes a different direction. Here is the complete antithesis of that in a group that never takes a turn and puts out the same thing every single time. Have a listen. Tell me who it is. Speaker 18 (28:01):(singing) Barnes (28:01):It's the same very time. Cubby (28:02):Yup, and it'll be a huge hit. Speaker 18 (28:02):(singing) Barnes (28:10):When are they going to change the name of the band to Adam Levine? Because they don't even let the band in the videos anymore, and when did he shave his head? I somehow missed that. Leslie (28:29):He always has a different look. If you ever watched him on The Voice he had a different look every season, but ... Barnes (28:33):Shaved his head, and now he has a full on beard like something you would see the pilgrims out in the middle of nowhere. It's a completely different look. Cubby (28:44):But man, I tell you what, they've had a run though, right? Barnes (28:45):Amish, yeah. I like Maroon 5, but it's just funny. It's like they recorded 700 songs the first time they got together, and they're just putting out 10 every time. Leslie (28:54):He does have an amazing voice, though. You have to admit that. Cubby (28:56):I like them. Barnes (28:57):He totally does. I got off at the airport at LAX one time, and he was sitting in the very front waiting to get on the plane, and he had a black cap pulled down over his head. He's a stud. The guy is just like a super rockstar who's ... I like their first album better than any of them. Cubby (29:10):Have you ran into everybody at some point, Barnes? Barnes (29:13):I ran into Rick Ross at FedEx. Cubby (29:15):There you go. You need to have a weekly feature like who I ran into. Barnes (29:18):Just on people I ran into this week. Cubby (29:19):Yeah, who I ran into this week. Barnes (29:20):He was in a metallic silver either Lamborghini or Ferrari like it was a mirror, like a complete mirror. And he was a mess at the counter trying to get all of his stuff organized to send out. Leslie (29:32):When you run into somebody at the airport do you go up and talk to them? Barnes (29:35):At the airport? Leslie (29:36):Yeah, like if you saw- Cubby (29:36):Not unless I'm a really big fan. Leslie (29:37):Kind of give them their space. Barnes (29:39):Only person I have done ... Two people, Johnnie Cochran- Leslie (29:42):Nice. Barnes (29:43):... and Tom Landry. Cubby (29:46):Oh yeah, that's huge. Barnes (29:47):The two that you're never going to get another shot. Leslie (29:50):Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. Cubby (29:52):A lot of times I want to do it just because I want the ... Do it for the gram like for Facebook. But I usually don't go up to them because I feel bad. I don't want to bother them. Leslie (30:02):I did my first virtual concert a few days ago. Obviously I'm watching stuff on Facebook Live and Instagram but I went into Veeps, which is much ... There's a lot of these platforms out there now. There's Sessions and Mystro and StageIt. But Pete Yorn did his legendary album, Music From the Morning After. Barnes and I were able to play that when we worked at 99X. That record's like 2001, but he did the whole album from beginning to end, I liked the program because tickets start at 15 bucks, but then you can pay more and they give you these fun different levels. And I went ahead and just said, "I'm going to give them 100 bucks," since I was like, "Yeah, I get a hug for 100 bucks." It was really cool, and then if course I love watching the chat because you've got people from all over the world. So this may be the new norm for concerts for the next few years. Barnes (30:48):You paid for a virtual hug? Leslie (30:50):No, I paid 100 bucks for Pete Yorn because I love him. It was fun. Barnes (30:54):Women love them some Yorn. Leslie (30:55):Love Pete Yorn. Barnes (30:57):Man, they love that guy. Cubby (30:58):But you're right, Leslie. That is going to be the new norm for at least another year or two. All right, we've got somebody waiting to get on, and we cannot keep them waiting long because he'll kick our ass. Let's watch a scene first from his sitcom, which is so funny seeing him in this role. This is Bill Goldberg on The Goldbergs. Goldberg (31:15):Let's go. Come on 58. What the Hell is that. This ain't Sunday school. You're as useless as your communication degree. Well look at that, a tea party broke out at a football game. Get up, Lopez. I'll say when you have heat stroke. Speaker 20 (31:33):That's Miller's brother. Look at him. It's like this coach ate our coach. Speaker 21 (31:37):All I see is a big teddy bear who aches for his brother's love. Goldberg (31:41):What the Hell do you think you're doing, Blondie? Speaker 21 (31:43):I'm here to bring the Miller boys back together. It's time to fix things with Coach Rick, Coach Nick. Goldberg (31:48):My brother, pass. Barnes (31:53):You know when that music sounds just like Batman, he appears. Ladies and gentlemen, Bill Goldberg on The Pop Culture Show. Hey Bill. Goldberg (32:02):God, that never gets old, you know. Barnes (32:03):No, I want to play that just when I get up in the morning and I walk out of my bedroom. Goldberg (32:07):Well, sometimes they need it as inspiration to get in the shower, but you know. Everybody needs their little push in the morning any damn day. Barnes (32:19):Are you working somewhere, are you at home right now, where are you? Goldberg (32:23):I'm working right by my pool. Barnes (32:26):Nice. Goldberg (32:27):If you can imagine one of the maybe five or 10 places that you've thrown in front of me over the past 10 years as far as vacation spots to spend a couple days. Pick one of those out, and that's kind of where I am. Barnes (32:44):What he's talking about, Leslie and Cubby is a few times we'll put the siren out if I get a call from a big hotel chain that's saying, "We need you to film here. We've got a villa." So I'll call Goldberg sometimes and go, "Dude, we've got this 18-bedroom villa in Anguilla," and he'll be like, "Goddammit, let me figure this out." And he's trying to shuffle around, "I've got this and I've got that." That's what he's talking about. So now he's got his own paradise. Goldberg (33:11):Yeah, it sucks. I haven't been able to go man. [inaudible 00:33:13] take you up on our wonderful offer. Leslie (33:15):So Bill, do you mind being called Bill or do you want to just be called Goldberg? Goldberg (33:19):Come on Leslie, you can call me anything you want. Leslie (33:22):So Goldberg ... No. You're career has just been amazing, obviously from being a super athlete to acting. What's been the most rewarding for you? Goldberg (33:32):Well first and foremost, Leslie, for you to characterize it as amazing is a reach to say the least, but I think the longevity I guess needs ... The amazing part is that I've been able to reinvent myself I think. I haven't been great at anything by any stretch of the imagination. But once I feel the need or the quality wanes I turn the corner and try to do something else. Back in the day when we were all doing our thing back in Atlanta those were the greatest times. They really were, whether it was winning in front of 45,000 people at The Dome or standing on the sidelines trying to get in for the Falcons for three or four years, playing in the celebrity softball games. I've done a lot of cool things in my life, but those are the ones with your good friends that you cherish. Those are the ones that make memories. Cubby (34:29):I have to ask, Wikipedia isn't always right. Are you 6'2" and 266. That's what it says right now. Are you current six foot two, 266? Is that accurate or off base? Goldberg (34:41):Well I've been hit in the head with a number of chairs but not that many. I would've shrunk a number of inches but I'm 6'4" and about 270. Barnes (34:51):Cubby and Leslie, funny story about Goldberg. One time I was visiting him at his house when he lived outside of San Diego, and we went to lunch, and we went to this little place, I don't even remember what it's called. It was a small Mom and Pop regular old place, and we went in, and I ordered a grilled chicken and a whatever. Goldberg ordered, like, seven entrees. You mentioned the 6'4" or two, whatever. He orders all these entrees and the people knew him there, like the people that worked there. So they come with the massive, like the whole team has to bring out his entrees, and they line them up in front of him, and he just one at a time methodically just eats these full dishes. And I'm sitting there with my one little chicken breast. I'm like, "Okay, great." Barnes (35:37):Bill, the weird thing is everyone in the room must stares at you the whole time. Is that weird, just everywhere ... Because you're like a superhero? Goldberg (35:44):What's weird is the amount that I consume. What people have to understand is that once you get to a point where you eat that much food at some point throughout your life food has become different to you. For me it's fuel. I don't really taste much anymore. Eating is not enjoyment for me. It's a necessity. I remember the days with the Falcons that I'd wake up in the middle of the night and eat double cheeseburgers just to be able to gain weight or sustain weight throughout practice. It's a blessing and it's a curse. It's cool to be able to eat just about anything you want and not turn into the Pillsbury Doughboy for sure. But it's financially straining, and it's Hell on your gastrointestinal system. Barnes (36:33):But the other part, [crosstalk 00:36:35] the other part Bill. You lived out in the middle of nowhere in San Diego, and I know now in Texas you're out in the middle of somewhere with a compound. And everywhere you go, though, the times that I've been with you, multiple, multiple times, people just stare at you. And it's because you're this bigger than life character that really is that big. So when people see you they're thinking there's Goldberg about to get in the ring, and you have the glasses, your cool sunglasses on, you're in some loud muscle car, and you pop up and get out and go in and eat. And you can't just have your meal. Everyone's starting at you. Does that ever get just weird? Goldberg (37:12):Yeah, it's all an experience. You take the good with the bad, and I still consider that good. I'm greatly appreciative that anybody and everybody would notice me for something favorable as opposed to me being in jail or something. It's a lifelong journey that has it's ups and downs, and your privacy at the end of the day is one of those things that can be compromised at times, but that's why I'm sitting in the middle of 130 acres in the middle of nowhere, and you can't even find me on Google Maps. I'm either working or I'm not working, and I'm an extremist, and I'm from one end of the spectrum to the next. Goldberg (37:50):Every time I step out of my house into the public I have to have that mentality that you obviously treat everybody how you want to be treated. There are some freaks out there for sure, you've seen them. But it's an honorable deal. It really is. It means I guess throughout the years I've done something right. Leslie (38:12):I didn't like what you said earlier about you never did anything great. That is not true. First and foremost you had an undeniable streak. You had so many wins. What was it that kept you so focused and in the game? Goldberg (38:26):You guys know me. There were a lot of reasons that I was successful. First and foremost I was in the right place at the right time with the right ... The business was taking a turn. Hogan and those guys left the WWF, the WWE, whatever it was at the time. The WCW Turner gig was head-to-head with the pre-eminent wrestling company in the world, and I was in the right place at the right time. Hogan needed a baby face, somebody from I guess nowhere. It took a long time for me to decide to be in the wrestling business because, and you guys can understand this, you weren't in this situation but when I played in Georgia and when I played with the Falcons I would always go out in Atlanta, and those were the times. And I'd always see a number of wrestlers, and I never wanted to be associated with the certain ones that I saw all the time. It took me a long time to make that decision. Goldberg (39:30):What kept me going all the time was me having to look in the mirror and be proud of what I was doing. I'm always of the opinion that if you're going to do something you've got to do it right, period, end of story. You've got to give 1,000%. Unfortunately, in this day and time mediocrity is kind of the norm. It's accepted. But in my book I don't want to be like anybody else, I don't want to be as good as anybody else, I want to be better in every respect. What kept me going was the one thing that my dad always told me, "You're only as good as your next match." Cubby (40:10):What is your current WWE status right now at this very moment? Goldberg (40:15):I am contracted with the WWE for the next two years through 2022, '23. I've got two matches per year. I've exhausted my limit this year quite early on April the fifth with WrestleMania under these really weird circumstances. But I've got a couple other extremely interesting projects right on the cusp, but as you guys know in the entertainment business right now everything's on hold unless it's a production of 10 or under pretty much. We got a lot of cool things that people are going to find out about pretty soon. My WWE commitment is still going strong. At 53, I never would've imagined especially after making fun of Flair when he was doing it in his early 40s. Goldberg (41:08):I haven't read everything that Tyson said about his comeback, but the one thing that struck me, which was the reality. Age is just a number, and I think that we're part ... Tyson and I and I don't want to group myself with him because I'm not the athlete that he is by any stretch of the imagination, but we're of a certain generation that continues to have a lot of pride in what they do. It doesn't surprise me one bit that he's in the shape that he's in because I have the same mentality that he does. I still have to walk around and be Goldberg. And I also have a 14-year-old son that I try to train with every day who's playing his first year of football this year. It's all about setting an example in a positive way every single day and trying to be your best. Barnes (41:59):Bill, some of the guys from the WWE podcast they listened, and they sent in a question. Let's listen. This is Matt. Matt (42:06):Hi. This is Matt. I'm the creator and host of the WWE podcast, and this question is for Goldberg. If you were to pinpoint a single piece of advice that you've gotten over the years that has been the most important to your success as a pro wrestler what would that be if you were able to just pinpoint a single piece of advice, and thanks again. Goldberg (42:28):Oh man, there's a number of them that were integral, I think, in my success. But the most simplistic one is once you think you're going slow go even slower because I get really ancy when I get in the ring. And a lot of people do, and they're nervous. The one thing that always helped me being Goldberg and being different and being able to control every aspect of my performance, whether it's breathing or a turn, is taking your time. There were a number of times when I didn't do it, and I was mediocre at best. Barnes (43:08):That's good advice. It's hard to do. Goldberg (43:08):I think it is. You can apply it in everything. Barnes (43:10):Goldberg, your place in San Diego, I've not seen your Texas place yet, but you had how many garages were out there, eight? Goldberg (43:17):Man, there were ... Let's, they're 14. Barnes (43:20):14 garages. He had a gym that's bigger than any LA Fitness that I've seen with every piece of gear you can imagine. He had built his son, not a go cart track, but an off road track. It looked like a place where you would pay admission to get into to go ride a four-wheeler jumping over things. It was insane. Do you have that, have you upped yourself at your new compound in Texas? What's there? Goldberg (43:49):I don't know how to answer that question and not sound like a dick, but ... Seriously, seriously- Barnes (43:58):It's toys. Goldberg (43:59):... hey man, I worked my ass off. You guys know it. I've worked really hard. Barnes (44:04):No one doubts that. No one doubts that. Goldberg (44:06):And I live on 130 acres, and I'm about to build a 15,000 square foot garage that I'm going to put 37 cars in. Barnes (44:15):What else is there? So you're building this massive garage, and is there another track for your son? Goldberg (44:21):I put it this way ... Leslie, my wife got a zebra last week. Barnes (44:24):She got a zebra? Leslie (44:26):Like an animal zebra? Barnes (44:28):Are you going to go Tiger King on us? Goldberg (44:30):Dude, I live on 130 acres with about 20 longhorn steer, llamas, sheep, goats, deer, about four kind of deer, miniature ponies. Leslie (44:44):It's a safari out there. Cubby (44:45):Charge admission, yeah. Goldberg (44:47):My wife's into horses. Put it this way, she can have whatever kind of animal ... Inside there's a miniature deer in my kitchen right now. Barnes (44:56):What will it cost to get a picture of Goldberg on a mini-pony. Goldberg (45:01):Oh, no, that won't happen. He'll kill me. It's only like 28 inches high, but it's a knee biter. He'll blow your kneecaps out. Leslie (45:12):How does one buy a zebra? Goldberg (45:13):But here's the deal. Wanda, she was given the zebra. Three houses down they have giraffes. We live in the middle of nowhere, guys. We're on 130 acres, and I got a big pond in the back where I just hang out and fish and relax. It's our end game. My wife was an ex-stunt woman, and she put her body through hell throughout the years. We've got a 14-year-old boy that we moved out to this area of the country so he can pursue his academic and his sports love, and hopefully we can relax and retire here. But things are still going strong. One of the projects I got, unfortunately, has me living in LA for a couple days a week. Right when I find my end game I got to turn around and go right back to where I came from. Goldberg (46:08):I'm very lucky. We've all been very successful throughout the years. I thank everyone that's around me. It's just persistence. It's hard work. Like I said, I haven't been really good at anything, so I got to keep reinventing myself and trying again. Cubby (46:26):How far is the airport from your house because we're all coming over? Goldberg (46:30):There's three ways. There's a guy with a strip three miles down the road. The local airport is 12 miles down the road. And I will tell you that San Antonio is an hour away from me. If you guys flew a little private you could get in really close, or if you parachuted in- Barnes (46:53):We're coming. Get the Gulfstream. Goldberg (46:53):... I got a great landing pad over here. Leslie (46:55):Hey, we haven't talked about Goldberg the actor. You've been in a lot of movies, TV shows from The Goldbergs to NCIS LA. Any acting gigs coming up? Goldberg (47:05):Yup. That's one of the ones that that's why the LA commitment. It's a spin-off from NCIS, and myself and an unnamed superstar are starring in it. It's kind of like a modern day A-Team kind of gimmick. It's going to be really awesome. It's something I've wanted to be for a very long time. It's a fun project. It's going to have to be fun to get me to leave where I am right now. Barnes (47:33):That's going to be awesome. [crosstalk 00:47:35] You can't give us a hint who the other guy is? Goldberg (47:37):Absolutely not, I wouldn't, not yet. Barnes (47:40):That sounds fun. Congratulations, Goldberg. Leslie (47:42):That's amazing. Barnes (47:43):You're just killing it, man. And for you to do a role like you do on The Goldbergs when you're putting yourself out there with funky little tight shorts and knee socks. It shows a lot of- Goldberg (47:54):I caught more hell from that, man. I'll tell you what, Bryan Callen and everybody on that cast is indicative of their characters to the nth degree. It's just a blast every time I'm there. Hey man, I'm as goofy as the next guy. I have no problem emasculating myself. My wife does it to me every day, so I'm kind of used to it. Barnes (48:21):Well thank you for coming on. It was so great to catch up with, Bill. Goldberg (48:22):Oh man, it's a true pleasure to talk to you guys again. And hopefully we can do it again soon. Everybody be safe out there. I miss you guys, and it was an honor and a privilege to be on, and have a wonderful Sunday. Barnes (48:36):Well just get that teed up for your next WWE match, Goldberg versus coronavirus, and just take of it, done, finished. Goldberg (48:44):Yeah, that would be nice. My father was an obstetrician/gynecologist so I kind of have being a doctor in my blood, but I don't think I could take that one on. Barnes (48:54):You've met your match. All right, Goldberg. Goldberg (48:57):Yes, that's for sure. You guys be well. Leslie (48:58):Thank you. Barnes (48:59):See you, bye, bye. Cubby (49:00):Thank you. Leslie (49:01):Major revelation there at the end. Another NCIS spin-off. How many is this? Barnes (49:05):Oh, I know. That is cool. But good for him. He keeps killing it. Leslie (49:08):I wonder who the other sidekick will be. That'll be fun. Barnes (49:11):Such a great guy. Such a cool dude. All right, celebrity confidential, that's our series we've had for one whole week, and that's where we just tell stories from beyond, stories from beyond the backstage door, stories from beyond the set. This week it is Leslie Fram. Cannot wait to hear this story. What is it? I don't even know what it is. Leslie (49:31):If you think about your all time favorite TV shows like I think Game of Thrones might be mine, and then I don't know, Breaking Bad, but Dexter is definitely in the top five. Barnes (49:39):Oh yeah. I never got into that, but everyone loved it. Leslie (49:42):It was incredible if you ever want to go back and binge on it. But Michael C. Hall obviously his claim to fame was Dexter and Six Feet Under. When I was working in New York at a rock station called WRXP we had Michael C. Hall in for an interview. This was at the height of Dexter, season five finale, 2010? Yeah, 2010. We didn't know what to expect, but we made the room that we did the interview in a kill room. Did you ever watch any of Dexter, Cubby? Cubby (50:13):I did not. I'm sorry. Leslie (50:14):The kill room where he would kill people in Dexter was all plastic and garbage, like the whole room. He would cover all the walls. So we covered all the walls to make it a kill room, of course not knowing what to expect. We're kind of nervous not knowing is he going to be pissed about this, are his handlers going to be upset. No, he- Barnes (50:34):So like blood everywhere. You had just plastic up. Leslie (50:36):No, just the whole plastic everywhere just like he would for a kill room in Dexter. So he walks into the radio station by himself kind of wandering the halls and we find him. Super cool guy, and we're like, "Oh god, what is he going to thing? What's he going to think?" He walks in, he kind of looks around at the kill room, and he's like, "Nothing like a little murder to bring friends together." So he was really fun about it, very cool. We do the interview, he does a takeover, plays an hour of his favorite music. Played Bob Dylan, he played The Who, bunch of rock stuff. So that was it, great guy. Leslie (51:11):Fast forward 2013 I am going to LA to see The Who with a friend of mine. This was like the big Quadrophenia tour with everybody in the band, and I think it was at the Staples Center, and- Barnes (51:23):Who? Leslie (51:25):Who. Cubby (51:26):Who. Leslie (51:27):My friend and I ... she gets the tickets, great seats, we're going to see The Who, I'd never seen The Who before, so psyched. We're sitting there and the show starts. 10 minutes into the show we see a couple of guys kind of crowding in our space because everybody's standing. You're standing up because it's The Who. I'm like, "Guys are in our space. They keep crowding us. They keep crowding ... They're getting closer and closer. I'm getting agitated." I'm like, "Wait a second, we bought these tickets. These are our seats. These guys are like ..." I'm getting read to turn around and say something. Barnes, I know you would've said something if somebody's crowding into your space at a concert. Barnes (52:04):Well yeah just because that's your space. Leslie (52:06):That's your space. Barnes (52:06):You paid for it, yeah. Leslie (52:07):So I turn around. I'm about to say something, and I turn around, and it's Dexter. It's Michael C. Hall and this buddy of his. And I'm like, "Yeah, I was about to throw shade at Dexter." And he does, "Hey, we're really sorry. We're just really big fans. Do you guys mind?" And we're like, "Oh no, of course not. You can hang with us." So we end up watching the show with Dexter, with Michael C. Hall and his buddy for the whole show. Of course, I was going to let him in my space. He's Dexter. Barnes (52:34):Did he remember everything previously from three years ago? Leslie (52:37):He kind of looked and kind of acknowledged like, "Oh hey." And I was like, "Yeah hey." So obviously at that point I was very cool, and I was like, "Of course I'm going to let Michael C. Hall watch The Who with us whether we were crowded or not." Barnes (52:50):Qweef it. All right, that was a good story. Which Hall? Leslie (52:58):Michael C. Hall. Barnes (52:59):Yeah, Michael C. Hall. Cubby (52:59):Anthony Michael. Leslie (52:59):You were thinking of ... Barnes (53:03):Six Underground, Six Feet Underground, that was my Michael C. Hall. That was the show that I liked him from. I just couldn't get into Dexter. And Cubby, you're the same way. Cubby (53:10):I couldn't either, yeah. Leslie (53:12):It was really good. Cubby (53:12):I hope you still love me, Leslie. Leslie (53:13):That's okay. Barnes (53:14):I've tried it multiple times. Just never worked. Leslie (53:17):It was like eight seasons. That show was huge. Cubby (53:20):You want to talk about huge, guys, I have the ratings. Barnes (53:24):Oh, here we go. Cubby (53:26):You ready for this guys? Barnes (53:27):No. Cubby (53:28):No, you're going to love this. Barnes (53:29):This is the ratings for our show. Cubby (53:29):For our show. How many people are tuned in, and the rankings. Big news, guys, we're number five in Guatemala, but we're down one. We are down one. We were number four, we're down to number five. Barnes (53:41):Killing it. Cubby (53:42):But you know what, it's Guatemala. Barnes (53:44):Where is that? Cubby (53:45):Now, this is unbelievable. We probably should have a ratings party. We're number one in Bolivia- Leslie (53:51):Wow. Cubby (53:51):... for three weeks in a row, number one- Barnes (53:53):Yeah. Cubby (53:54):... in Bolivia. Leslie (53:54):Thank you, Bolivia. Cubby (53:55):Yup, yup, yup. This, though, is kind of sad. We have really dropped like a rock in Canada. We're currently number 2,306 in Canada. Barnes (54:08):They just don't get American humor at all. Cubby (54:11):Yeah, maybe so. By the way, finally, we were a former number one in Turkey. We are now completely out of the top 50, so bye, bye Turkey. Barnes (54:21):What are we doing wrong? Leslie (54:22):I don't know why these numbers are dropping in Canada and in Turkey. Cubby (54:25):Help. Speaker 1 (54:29):This is Cubby's Pop Culture throwback, a rewind into the vault of music, movies, and moments. Cubby (54:36):All right guys, we're going back to the year 2000. Where were you in the year 2000, Leslie? Leslie (54:40):We were just talking about that. I was at 99X playing Pet Yorn records. Cubby (54:44):Back in the year 2000 there was a lot going on on the charts, there was a lot going on in the theaters. Do you know what the number one song this week on the pop charts was? Obviously you don't off the top of your head, but let me give you a hint, it's a boy band, pop charts, boy band. Leslie (55:00):NSYNC. Cubby (55:00):Boom, Leslie Fram for the win. Speaker 23 (55:04):(Singing) Cubby (55:12):Number one song in the country 20 years ago this week, It's Gonna Be Me by NSYNC. And I thought you were going to say like the Backstreet Boys because when we say boy band there was a million of them out in the year 2000. You had O-Town, you had NSYNC, Backstreet Boys- Leslie (55:24):All huge. Cubby (55:26):... Westlife. I can go on and on. There was a lot of them out in 2000. The number one song on the Country charts 20 years ago this week. It went over to crossover everywhere. It's our girl, Lee Ann Womack. Lee Ann Womack (55:37):(singing) Cubby (55:42):Such a great song. Leslie (55:43):Really inspirational. Lee Ann Womack (55:47):(singing) Barnes (55:47):Sing, I hope you die? Leslie (55:48):Dance. Cubby (55:49):No, I hope you dance, [crosstalk 00:55:50] dummy. Lee Ann Womack (55:54):(singing) Cubby (55:54):That's a great song. Leslie (55:54):It is. Cubby (55:55):I'm sorry, I play that all the time- Leslie (55:56):Timeless. Cubby (55:56):... on the radio station I'm on here in New York. The number one song on the modern rock chart this week in the year 2000. Barnes (56:03):2000 ... Cubby (56:04):Not Jesus Jones. It's not Jesus Jones. Barnes (56:06):Blink-182. Leslie (56:07):Wait, wait, wait, give us a hint. Cubby (56:09):Okay. This was their first song, and they went on a pretty good run after this. They're from Mississippi I believe. Barnes (56:17):Oh, 3 Doors Down. Cubby (56:18):Boom. Leslie (56:19):Boom, Barnes. Cubby (56:19):3 Doors Down. Speaker 26 (56:23):(singing) Cubby (56:30):I feel like this is the only song they had that really kind of rocked. Barnes (56:32):No. Cubby (56:34):No, but all the singles were kind of like [crosstalk 00:56:36]. Barnes (56:36):Be without you, baby. Cubby (56:38):They were kind of slow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Barnes (56:40):We did a cool thing, Cubby, with them one time. We did a show from our listener's living room. Cubby (56:43):Oh really. Barnes (56:44):Yeah, we showed up with 3 Doors Down. What was that thing called, Leslie? Leslie (56:47):Home Invasion. Barnes (56:49):Home Invasion. Leslie (56:49):Remember Tommy Lee. Barnes (56:50):We could never do that. Yeah, we did Tommy Lee. Set up a drum set, Cubby, in someone's front yard, and they didn't know it was coming. Cubby (56:57):Oh, that's too cool. Barnes (56:57):And then we did the whole show at their house. So we literally at 4:00 AM we started setting up the drum set in front of this house in Atlanta. And Tommy Lee shows up in a van, the door opens, he walks up, sits down, starts twirling his sticks, and did a full on drum solo in the neighborhood. People started coming out of the doors. I wish we had video of that. But yeah, 3 Doors Down in someone's living room. Cubby (57:16):I have a quick 3 Doors Down story too. I was eating at Virgil's Barbecue in Times Square in New York. Barnes (57:21):Love. Leslie (57:21):Virgil's. Cubby (57:21):Remember Virgil's? Leslie (57:22):Yup, I've been there. Barnes (57:22):Yeah. Cubby (57:23):And I ran into some friends from Universal Records, and they were having dinner with a new band. And they're like, "Hey Cubby, we just signed them, 3 Doors Down." Had no idea who they were, and then of course they end up being huge. Leslie (57:34):Huge. Barnes (57:35):Nice guys. Cubby (57:35):That's cool when you meet ... And they'd never been in New York before, and they were all excited. Number one song on the R&B charts this week was a group called Jagged Edge, and a song called Let's Get Married. Speaker 27 (57:46):(singing) Cubby (57:49):This is a jam. I don't know if you remember this song though. Leslie (57:51):Oh yes. Speaker 27 (57:51):(singing) Cubby (57:55):The number one movie at the box office 20 years ago this week was Nutty Professor II: The Klumps. Audio (58:03):Well, Momma, funny you should say that? Denise and I have been doing some research on aging which has proven to be extremely promising. Audio (58:07):[i

Really fun conversation. Jerdog's internet goes down at the end.... causing the world to tell Bill what to do with the end of the episode. So Bill decided to rage about it. 

The exciting conclusion of the presentation I gave at Stephen Larsen’s OfferMind event. On this episode you will hear the exciting conclusion to Russell’s presentation from OfferMind about level 10 Opportunities. Here are some of the things to listen for in today’s episode: Find out how level 10 opportunities came onto Russell’s radar. Hear how Russell met Todd and see what they thought their level opportunity was going to be originally. And see how they managed to build Clickfunnels, after Russell had been trying to develop something similar for 10 years prior. So listen here to find out how you can be on the lookout for your own level 10 opportunity.  ---Transcript--- Hey everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you guys enjoyed last episode on finding your level 10 opportunity. So this is going to be the exciting conclusion of that presentation that I gave at Stephen Larsen’s OfferMind. And it’s not the whole presentation, it’s the intro. I talked about 30 minutes about finding your level 10 opportunity. And I think it’s a mindset thing because so many people need to get, you know, they hear me talk a lot of times about One Funnel Away, you’re one funnel away. And they’re waiting for this funnel that’s going to change everything. No, no, no, no, you have to multiple funnels. Your first funnel, your second, your third, you keep doing these funnels until you find your thing. And that’s what I wanted to share with you guys. So that’s kind of the context, and with that said I hope you guys enjoy the conclusion of this presentation about how to find your level 10 opportunity. I want to fast forward to 8 or 9 years ago, 7 or 8, I don’t know. I’m so bad at years. Some people are like, “In 1996” I can never remember. I was in Kenya, that’s all I remember. So I was in Kenya, and it was my wife and I had a whole bunch of marketing nerds, and most of them had wives too, and this was back before there were too many female entrepreneurs, I don’t think we had any female entrepreneurs on that trip. And the last time we went to Kenya we had like half of them that were female entrepreneurs, which is a huge testament to the females. I love it. It makes me happy every single time I see that. But back then we were all hanging out and I remember because we did this long ride inside of this little jeep, and it was my wife and I and then 2 or 3 other couples, and all the dudes were talking business and all the wives were annoyed. So we got to this stop where we had lunch and then all the wives were like, “Do you guys mind if we go in this jeep over here, and you guys go in this jeep because we don’t want to hear you talk anymore.” We’re like, “But it’s like a 4 hour drive.” They’re like, “Exactly. We do not want to go for 4 more hours with you guys.” We’re like, “Oh, I guess.” So we jump in another jeep, and I’m sitting next to this guy named Bill Harrison, anyone here know Bill? A couple of you guys. Okay. Bill is probably one of the smartest marketing dudes I’ve ever met. So for context, he’s married now, but when I first met him, he was probably, I don’t know, 50, never been married. I might have got that wrong. But he was obsessed with marketing, and his house, I saw pictures of it. You go in his house, imagine a bachelor pad, but he’s rich, so it’s a big bachelor pad, and every room from floor to ceiling is marketing and sales books. He didn’t have bookshelves anymore because he can’t handle it. Every single room is just piled with books. In fact, he used to send me boxes of books as gifts. He’s like, ‘Hey Brunson, I just sent you a bunch of books.” And I’d show up and there’s like a microwave box with like 500 books in it. And I’m like, “Are these good?” He’s like, ‘Oh, they’re all good. I’m not going to send you crappy books.” I’m like, “This is amazing.” So Bill is one of the smartest dudes I’ve ever met when it comes to marketing and sales, like obsessed. You guys think I’m obsessed, he’s that to the next level. He’s awesome. Anyway, so we’re sitting in this jeep geeking out about all sorts of stuff, having a bunch of fun. And we’re like 2 ½ hours into this bumpy jeep ride talking and he tells me this story that just, man, it rocked everything, my whole world. And I’m probably I don’t know, like 6 pages into funnel building at the time. I’ve done a million different things, launched a bunch of stuff, had some successes, had a lot of losses, but as a whole we were doing really well. And we’re sitting there in this jeep and we’re talking and he says, “Man, it’s so interesting.” He’s like, “I feel like I’m one of the best marketers in the world. Russell, I feel like you are too. We’re some of the best, most passionate people who geek out about this the most, but do you know what the biggest problem is?” I’m like, ‘What?” because I would love to know. I’m doing well, but I would love to do more. And he’s like, “We have the wrong opportunity.” I’m like, “What do you mean?” He’s like, and he goes on, “I have this friend, who he is not a good marketing dude at all. He’s maybe like a level 2 skill set of being a marketer. But he got into this opportunity with this big company and he was able to apply his level 2 skill set into a level 10 opportunity. They just took their company public for over a billion dollars, he cashed out and made insane amounts of money, because he had a level 10 opportunity.” And he’s like, “If I look at this, as I see in this jeep, I feel like I’ve got a level 10 skill set, and my company, while it does really, really good, I feel like it’s like a level 3 or maybe a level 4 opportunity, with a level 10 skill set. So because of that I’m only able to get to a certain level. The same thing is true for you dude. You’re at a level 10 skill set, but you’re looking at level 2 maybe level 3 opportunity, that’s why you’re stuck at this thing.’ I was like, oh my gosh. I’d never thought about that. And I was a little frustrated and I was like, well crap, what’s my level 10 opportunity. I don’t even know what that is, or what it could be. I felt like all the stuff I was doing was good. And if you look at the, you know, I look at all the people through my lens and I’m doing better than all the people around me, like my friends, my family, stuff like that, I’m making more money. But man, what is actually possible? And I didn’t know. I remember coming home from that trip and just thinking, well, what’s my level 10 opportunity. I didn’t know, but I didn’t stop everything like “Well, I’m just going to wait until it comes here.” I was just like, okay, now I know that I’m looking for a level 10 opportunity. And I want to make sure that as I, when I find it that I’m ready and prepared for it. If they would have handed me Clickfunnels 8 years ago and like, ‘Here, run this thing.” guess what would have happened? I would have crashed it to the ground and burnt it and it would have been a really bad, painful, public humiliation in front of everybody. I wasn’t ready for it. But now I knew that I have my eye set, I’m going for a level 10 opportunity, but until that happens I’m going to move forward. I’m going to do the next one and the next one. I’m going to try this one and this one and this one and this one. And hopefully in that journey I’m going to have faith as I’m running as fast as I can, I’m looking for opportunities, I’m trying to find stuff and figure things out. And the right people are going to come into my life. I’m going to be introduced to people, I’m going to find opportunities, and maybe this one’s not the big success, but I’m going to open the door for the next one and the next one, and maybe I meet someone through the deal. I don’t know what that’s going to be, but I’m going to run with faith as fast as I can and just do funnel after funnel, after funnel. But I’m going to have my eyes open, looking for what is that level 10 opportunity. So that’s how it started. So from that point forward I started looking. And as I started looking, these weird opportunities started coming into my path. And some of them weren’t really pleasant. One of them I built a huge company up and the whole thing burnt and crashed to the ground. And that was really painful. Firing 80 people overnight is not fun. And I’m not going to get deep into the pain of that story, but it was bad. And I thought like, man, this whole thing I don’t even have a level 0 opportunity now. I got nothing. But I kept moving forward, and as I was moving forward I was trying thing after thing, after thing, and I remember in this process of trying a bunch of stuff, I remember buying this website because I was like, “This has got to be a level 10 opportunity.” So I bought this site, it was called championsound.com. Anyone here ever heard of Champion Sound? No, because it never, one person. Because it’s one of the ones on the list. It didn’t do anything though. I bought it off flippa.com, I tried to launch it, it didn’t work, we had some people sign up and started buying it. The software crashed, it was like an email and text message auto-responder for bands. I was like, “Gall, I thought this was going to be a level 10 opportunity.” Maybe like, I’m doing this thing. And in the pain of this thing not working I was trying to find a developer to help me fix this software. I went to, what was it back then Upwork, or Odesk, I can’t remember what. I was trying to find someone to hire to fix the site, and I was trying thing after thing and I couldn’t find anybody to fix it. And finally I was just frustrated like, “Alright, this isn’t going to work.” So I sent an email to the host and said basically, “Shut down the site, it’s not going to work. I don’t want to support the people, it doesn’t work, I can’t fix it.” And then I was walking out the door to leave, and as I was walking out the door I had this thought. And the thought I heard for a second it said, “There’s probably someone on your list who could fix this for you.” I’m like, my list? My list isn’t that big. There’s not people who are developers. It’s just like, but I’m like, alright. I try to listen when I hear voices like that. I’m like, alright. So I walked back into the office, I turned my computer back on, I send an email out and it just says, “If you know Ruby on Rails, I’m looking for a partner.” And I just kind of told them the story, “I got a site, it’s not working, it’s broken. I’m going to throw it away, but if you know Ruby on Rails, and want to be partner, email me back.” I sent it out there and an hour later I get an email from this dude in Atlanta who looks like he’s younger than me, which is kind of funny, except he’s got a beard. And I click on it and read this thing, he’s like, “I’m a Ruby on Rails developer, and I’d love to look at it.” So I send the login, he logs in, I go to bed and wake up in the morning and it’s like, “all the issues are fixed. Here you go.” And that was Todd Dickerson, who came into my world. And what’s crazy, Todd, it’s fascinating because Todd came into my world at the bottom of everything, broke, broke. Out of money, nothing left. And he came in and he came in a weird spot and he’s like, “I want to come work with you.” And I’m like, ‘I can’t pay you.” And he’s like, “That’s cool. I’ll just work for free.” And he worked for free for over a year. Coming in because he was just like, same thing, looking for an opportunity, looking for an opportunity. So we’re like a year into this relationship, friendship, working on different projects. And we went to a Traffic and Conversion event together and I could tell, I remember how broke we were because we shared a room. This is probably 7 years ago now, so we’re sharing a room and that night we’re walking around hanging out and I see Bill Harrison and we bump into each other again, and we start talking. And somehow in this conversation the whole level 10 opportunity thing came up again, which was kind of random because it was just like a freak thing. We talked for like 15 minutes and we left, and it reminded me of this thing in Kenya that happened a couple of years earlier. I was like, oh my gosh, I forgot about that. So that night I told Todd, I was like, “Look, this is the deal.” I told him the idea that I just told you guys about a level 10 opportunity. And Todd’s like, ‘Dude, what’s our level 10 opportunity?” I’m like, “I don’t know. Do you know?” He’s like, “No.” I’m like, “Crap, we gotta figure this thing out.” And then we’re like, “Oh my gosh, I know exactly what it is. It’s this thing and it’s going to be called, WPUndies.” And we got the word press logo and we got someone to design it with underwear, tighty-whitey’s on it and we were freaking out excited. And Todd started coding this thing, and it’s one of the things on this list down here, I’m not sure which page it is. But we’re like, ‘Dude, this is the big idea. It’s going to be this thing that you put on your word press site like underwear that helps protect it. And a third of all the websites in the world are on word press. It’s going to be insanely big.” So we’re so freaking out on our level 10 opportunity we start working, we start building this thing, and we’re doing it. And as we’re building it we find out that word press sucks because you plug in a thing, and then you have like 8000 different hosts, and somebody shifts the hosting over here and over here. And after we got the thing out there, we’re trying to support like 5 customers, we’re like, “Oh my gosh, this is the worst business we ever were in. This is not a level 10 opportunity.” We start freaking out and we’re not sure what to do and Todd’s flying back to Boise to plan, “Okay, what’s the next thing we’re going to do?” And on the flight over, Todd lives in Atlanta, he’s in the airport at like, I don’t know, I was still asleep here in Boise. It was the same day, some of you guys have heard this story before, it was the same day that leadpages got $5 million dollars in funding. So Todd’s jumping on a plane, reads this article and then he forwards it to me. And he jumps in the air, he’s in the air for 4 hours flying to Boise. And he’s flying, he’s just livid because Todd is the most genius developer in the world, and he knows that leadpages sucks. And he’s like, ‘I could build this today.” So I wake up in the morning and I read the article, I’m like, ‘Leadpages? That software sucks, we could build this today.” He shows up into the office, he walks in little Todd is all angry. I’m like, ‘What?” He’s like, “Leadpages got $5 million. What are they doing that we’re not doing?” I’m like, ‘I don’t know.” He’s like, “I could build Leadpages today. Do you want to build it.” I’m like, “Yes, we’re gonna build leadpages, we’re going to take them out.” We’re all excited. “This is our level 10 opportunity. We’ll get $5 million in funding too, it’s going to be awesome.” So we’re so excited, and then Todd asks this question, “Well, if we’re gonna set it up from the ground up, do you want to make it better than leadpages?” I’m like, “Heck yeah.” And he’s like, “What do you want?” and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, are you serious? Let me show you.” And I started showing him like all of these, “I want to be able to do this by myself without you guys because you guys are way too… I want to be able to do this. I can’t do Photoshop and Front page and all these people to do this.” And that started this journey onto Clickfunnels. Let me show you guys real quick, if you pull my slides up, level 10 opportunity, and this is kind of a side story, before somewhere in this journey, actually before I met Todd, it wasn’t like Clickfunnels was a unique idea. I wasn’t the first person to think like, “We should build software that makes it easy to build funnels.” I wasn’t the first person. In fact, this was in 2005, this was the first time I tried to build it and we called it Clickdotcom.com that would have been confusing huh. I would tell people that, “So Click.com?” “No, clickdotcom.com” they’re like, “Wait? What?” I’m like, “No, it’s…” Anyway, so this was the first time I was like, ‘If we build this, it’ll be huge.” So that was here in Boise, I ended up hiring 6 developers. I was selling all this crap and I was trying to take all the money to build this. I thought this was going to be huge. 2005, so this was like almost 10 years earlier we had tried this. And this was all different pages, if you look at it it’s kind of funny because I think we called it, it was before sales funnels, I think we called them sales processes and sales flows before we ever called them funnels. But we had built the whole software, we designed it and tried to build it. It’s funny because I talk about how if I would have got Clickfunnels 10 years ago, I wouldn’t have been able to do it. And its what happened. We tried it 10 years before I had Todd. I didn’t have the right people. And it crashed and burned. Again, we spent probably 2 or 3 years trying to build this, ran out of money during that whole crash, we gave up on it. That’s why when I did meet Todd and I asked him, can we build it? Part of me was like, “I’ve tried it before. I know other people who have tried it. I had a lot of other business partners, not business partners but friends who sat down like, and tried it as well. It just didn’t work. It was a good idea that just wasn’t simple to do. But we met Todd and then Dylan and made it possible. So this was 131 funnels later, this is the night that we started on the Clickfunnels project. It’s the only picture I have from that night. I wish we would have done more. So this is Todd here on the right hand side, some of you guys know Todd. On the left hand side is Dylan, and Dylan is no longer part of Clickfunnels, but he was one of the original cofounders with us. Dylan’s the one who built the original editor. So if any of you guys like the editor, that’s Dylan’s brainchild. He had spent 6 or 7 years prior trying to build a website editor for himself, we started building Clickfunnels we partnered together and plugged it all into one super system. But I wanted to share this story with you guys because as soon as we were aware of a level 10 opportunity, our eyes started looking for it, but we didn’t stop. I want, hopefully that gives some, a lot of you guys out here, especially ones who you’ve been doing this for a year or less than that, or a couple of years, who just  haven’t hit it yet, or you’ve had marginal successes. Don‘t stop. The key is not waiting for the big opportunity. “I’m waiting for my Clickfunnels.” It’s do your thing as fast as you can and keep doing it, and doing it, and keep doing it. And as you keep doing it, you’ll get better and you’ll get better, and eventually it will get worthy enough that when a level 10 opportunity shows up you’ll be prepared for it. That’s the key. So don’t get upset like “Oh my funnel didn’t work. This thing didn’t work.” It’s going to be tough, there’s going to be frustrations, things aren’t always going to work the very first time, or the third time, but if you keep doing it and keep doing it, for me it was 131 times before I hit my big thing. And I’m hoping for you guys, you get it a lot faster than that. But even if you don’t, it’s worth it. I’m now, man, 16 years in this business, and it’s funny because I get people all the time they’re like, “You guys just came out of nowhere.” And it’s like, yeah. 16 years, that’s a long time I’ve been focusing on this. But it’s something I’m obsessed with and just kept doing it, and kept doing it and kept doing it. And when you keep doing your thing, the opportunities appear, they show up, and if you’ve done the work you’ll be prepared and ready for them.

People literally ask me this one question ALL THE TIME… “Allen, how did come up with such a lucrative, safe, and easy way to trade?” I explain it all in my new book Passive Trading, get your free book here  https://www.passivetrading.com/free-book! Option Genius was built with you...the individual trader, the breadwinner, the dreamer, the rock your family depends on ...in mind. Because we know what it takes to become a successful and profitable trader. And that’s exactly what we help you do best. Get your $1 trial of Simon Says Options, our most conservative and profitable trading service here https://simonsaysoptions.com/stockslist-ss-trial-offer.  -- Passive traders, I hope you are well wherever you are. As I record this, corona is still with us. Not the beer, the disease, the virus. And the economy is opening up again almost everywhere. It's open in some form or fashion in the United States, and the stock market is jumping up and down both without any rhyme or reason in many cases. But the Fed is behind us, and with that, I believe with the Fed pumping as much money into the economy, the stocks are only going to rally, and so people are really trying to take advantage. I had a friend who is a friend of the family. He just graduated from college about a year ago. He was working full time and he got laid off. And so I had helped him and walked him through the whole unemployment process of how to apply for it and whatnot. He started getting his checks and his checks were in the vicinity of about $700 or $800 a week. This was more than he was making from his job because he was working on a commission basis as a salesperson. And so now he's got more money coming in than he's ever had before. And when I checked in with him, his comment was, "Yeah, I can't wait to put this money in my Robinhood account." That threw me for a loop. I said, "Wait a minute. You have no income. You have all these expenses. What do you mean you're going to take all your money from unemployment and put it in your Robinhood account? You're going to gamble it? I don't understand." I was like, "No, man. You just graduated from college. Your mom paid for everything. Your mom is working seven days a week. You need to go take this money and give it to her." And that kind of, he was like, "Oh, yeah, right. You're right. You're right." I don't know if he did or not, but that kind of told me what the thought process is of some of these youngsters. I was talking to another relative. He came over and he said, "Yeah, I'm in the stock market now." This one is a little bit older. He was about 26-years-old or so. And he's like, "Yeah, I'm trading. I'm in the stock market." I was like, "Oh, really." "Yeah. I bought some airlines and I bought some cruise lines." And yeah, that's wonderful. But you got to know when you're going to get out. You just can't buy it and hold it forever. These things are probably going to go back down. Anyway, I'm bringing all this up because these youngsters don't really understand how the markets work. And for some reason, with all the advent of these cheap, free brokers, like Robinhood and Webull, and they're really appealing to the younger kids, and they have more of a gambling mentality. My attention was drawn to an article where on June 13th, a fellow named Bill Brewster who works at Sylmar Capital, basically he's in the financial space, he's an analyst, he posted that his cousin had just committed suicide. And the reason for him committing suicide was that he started trading in his Robinhood account. Somehow his account showed him that he was owing about $700,000 in losses because he was trading on margin. So Bill is asking, how does a 20 year old with no income get access to that kind of leverage? And it's incredible. It's true. So if you are a parent and if your child is of this age, in their early twenties, maybe you should talk to them about it because a lot of kids are looking at this as a quick way to get rich. It's all over the internet. It's all over the Facebook groups, Instagram, all these places. And this seems to be like the new gold rush. Everything is going up. The cruise lines are going up 8%, 10% a day. You got to get in, you got to get in and you got to get in with options. You got to be buying options on this thing and use margin to do so, so it boosts your return even higher. These people don't know any clue of what they're talking about, what they're doing, and it's just ending really badly for some already. And it's going to end bad for many more in the future. So if you're a youngster in your twenties, then you need to realize that this is not the way to do it. If you want to do it, go ahead. If you want to gamble, go ahead with money that you have, do not use margin. And even if you're an adult, yeah, if you're twenties, you're already an adult, but if you're in your forties or fifties or sixties, and you're trying to gamble on these stocks, please don't do it with margin. Do it only with money that you can afford to lose because every time there is a financial disaster, there are always people who commit their lives and they commit suicide and it's a horrible story. It's not worth it. It's not worth committing suicide. I had a friend who committed suicide. He was my brother-in-law. He shot my sister, killed himself, shot the kids. And to this day, we don't know why. We could have helped if he had reached out and asked for help. We think it was financial related issues. They had other emotional issues and all that stuff too, but I think the thing that ticked him off and the thing that set everything in motion was his finances, and he could have reached out. And even in that case, it was leveraged. They had borrowed too much money. And so borrowing money never leads to good things unless you know what you're doing. And most cases, if you're looking to borrow a lot of money, then you don't know what you're doing, especially within the stock market. So margin is a good thing as option traders, as option sellers, we need a margin account so that we can sell our spreads, but you don't want to use that margin to be borrowing stocks and borrowing against options. Things are going ups and down right now. The stock market is very volatile. It's very crazy. It can go up, it can go down any day now. There's nobody that knows how to predict a future in the stock market. Nobody can and the people who say they can are lying. And that's it, that's plain and simple. So let this podcast issue episode, and let this young child who unfortunately lost his life to this, be a warning that we don't need to be trading with margin, number one. We don't need to be taking wild bets, number two. And we don't need to be taking our own lives. Our life is worth a lot more than even 700,000 that child apparently had run up in debt to Robinhood. Now, Robinhood did not, they were asked about it. They know about the situation, but they did not share any details of the trading account or how he got so much debt or margin. But they were where of the situation. They did release a statement that they were saddened to hear the news, and they reached out to the family to share their condolences. Let this be a lesson that you need to act prudently when it comes to your finances and suicide is never the answer. So if you're hearing this and you are in some kind of situation, you need help, reach out to somebody who can help you. If you have nobody reach out to me, I'll do my best, whatever I can do. But there is always another option. It's never too late. Everything, there's a book by this woman, Marie Forleo. It's an excellent book. Everything is Figureoutable, that's the name of the book. It's actually a great book. Pick that up if you have to, you get some help, talk to somebody. And worst comes to worse, you owe them money, big deal. There are other things, there are worse things in his life. So please, please don't take your life, get some help. All right? And I don't even know if I should say it on this episode, but trade with the odds in your favor. Be careful out there. -- LOVE ALLEN SAMA - OPTION GENIUS AND WANT TO LEARN MORE TRADING TIPS  AND TRICKS? HERE ARE SOME NEXT STEPS... SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PODCAST FREE 9 LESSON COURSE: https://optiongenius.com/ WATCH THIS FREE TRAINING: https://passivetrading.com JOIN OUR PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP:  https://optiongenius.com/alliance Like our show? Please leave us a review here - even one sentence helps.

William Bernhardt discusses the latest news from the world of books, offers writing tips, and interviews Lara Bernhardt, author of Ghosts of Guthrie and editor-in-chief at Balkan Press.Chapter One: IntroductionWriterCon 2020, William Bernhardt’s annual writers conference, will take place on September 4-7. Streaming options will provide an optional way to attend. Chapter Two: Newsa)Alaska School Board removes The Great Gatsby and other classics from the curriculumb)UK protests arise when anonymous donation to indie bookstores is revealed to have come from…a surprising source.c)Bookfinity.com helps readers find new booksd)The Internet Archive states that it will remove authors’ work (made available for download without compensation to authors) upon request. So Bill tests the claim…e)COVID-19 Impact Report: Libraries see increases in eBooks and eMagazines borrowing. Print book sales are up 10% over the previous week. Major publishers are turning to POD for print editions. Bookstores are starting to reopen. Penguin Random House delays payment of advances. f)Barnes & Noble delays payment of author royalties. Draft2Digital agrees to pay those author royalties to its authors out of its own pocket.g)This may be a pivotal moment in the evolution of the publishing world.Chapter Three: Writing TipsDo you have conversations with your fictional characters? Don’t worry about it—a new study shows that most writers do. There’s nothing wrong with it—in fact, it may be a good way to make characters three-dimensional, to develop a voice, and to write convincing dialogue.Chapter Four: Lara Bernhardt, author of Ghosts of Guthrie and editor-in-chief of Balkan Press and Conclave magazine, offers a top five list of advice for writers working with authors.Chapter Five: Parting WordsWilliam Bernhardt’s new novel, Twisted Justice (Book 4 in the Daniel Pike series) is now on sale. Lara Bernhardt’s new novel, Ghosts of Guthrie (Book 3 in the Wantland Files series) is also on sale. WriterCon 2020 will happen, September 4-7 in Oklahoma City. For more information, visit: writercon.org.

Hi Everyone. I’m Miko and I’m Fifi and welcome to Music History Diary. Today’s episode is a Listener Spotlight dedicated to Bill from Los Angeles. We are so thankful since he is the one who turned us on to the New Zealand band called The Beths. So Bill, this one’s for you. If you would like us to do an episode on your favorite song or artist, contact us through musichistorydiary.com.

Dr Carolyn Lam:                Welcome to Circulation on the Run, your weekly podcast summary and backstage pass to the Journal and its editors. I'm Dr Carolyn Lam, associate editor from the National Heart Center and Duke National University of Singapore. Dr Greg Hundley:             And I'm Greg Hundley, associate editor at Circulation and director of the Pauley Heart Center at VCU Health in Richmond, Virginia. Carolyn, have you ever wondered about instead of coding a stent, coding balloons with paclitaxel? Well, the feature article day is going to look at mortality assessments of paclitaxel-coated balloons in a meta-analysis from the ILLUMENATE clinical program, the three-year outcomes. Do you have a paper you want to start us off? Dr Carolyn Lam:                I sure do. First of all, we know that diabetes impairs atherosclerosis regression following cholesterol lowering in both humans and mice. Now in this process of plaque regression, what's the role of functional high density lipoprotein or HDL, which is typically low in patients with diabetes?                                                 Well, this first paper that I chose looks just at that and it's from Dr Fischer from New York University School of Medicine and colleagues, who aimed to test if raising functional HDL levels in diabetic mice prevents monocytosis, reduces the quantity and inflammation of plaque macrophages and enhances atherosclerosis regression following cholesterol lowering. So to do this, the authors used aortic arches containing plaques, which were developed in LDL receptor null mice, and these were transplanted into either wild type or diabetic wild type or diabetic mice transgenic for human APL lipid protein A1, which have elevated functional HDL. Dr Greg Hundley:             So Carolyn, what did they find in this interesting study? Dr Carolyn Lam:                Well, diabetic wild type mice had impaired atherosclerosis regression, which was normalized by raising HDL levels. The benefit was linked to suppressed hyperglycemia-driven myelopoiesis, monocytosis and neutrophilia. Increased HDL improved cholesterol efflux from bone marrow progenitors, suppressing their proliferation and monocyte neutrophil production capacity. ACL also suppressed the general recruitability monocytes to inflammatory sites and promoted plaque macrophage polarization to the M2 phenotype, which is an atherosclerosis resolving state. There was also a decrease in plaque neutrophil extracellular traps or nets, which are atherogenic and increased by diabetes. So raising apolipoprotein AI and functional levels of HDL promoted multiple favorable changes in the production of monocytes and neutrophils and in the inflammatory environment of atherosclerotic plaques in diabetic mice after cholesterol lowering. And this may represent a novel approach to reduce cardiovascular risk in patients with diabetes. Dr Greg Hundley:             Really interesting, Carolyn. Well, I'm going to talk to you a little bit about a large study in patients with valvular heart disease and it's a contemporary presentation and management study and it's from the Euro Observational Research Program Valvular Heart Disease II, Roman numeral two, survey. And the corresponding author is Professor Bernard Iung from Bichat Hospital. So the VHDII survey was designed by the Euro Observational Research Program of the European Society of Cardiology to analyze actual management of valvular heart disease and compare practice with guidelines.                                                 Now in short, patients with severe and native valvular heart disease or previous valvular intervention were enrolled prospectively across 28 countries over a three-month period in 2017. Indications for intervention were considered concordant if the intervention was performed or scheduled in symptomatic patients corresponding to class one recommendation specified in the 2012 ESC and in the 2014 American Heart Association American College of Cardiology valvular heart disease guidelines. Dr Carolyn Lam:                Wow. So what did they find, Greg? Dr Greg Hundley:             Okay, so there's 7,247 patients. 4,483 were hospitalized, and 2,764 were outpatients, and they were included across 222 centers. The median age was 71 years and 1,917 patients were over the age of 80, and 3,400 were women. Now, aortic stenosis was present in 2,000 plus patients, aortic regurgitation in 279, mitral stenosis and 234, mitral regurgitation in 1,114. And multiple left-sided valvular heart disease was present in 1,297, right-sided valvular heart disease in 143, and 2,028 patients had prior vascular intervention.                                                 So the decision for intervention was concordant with class one recommendations in symptomatic patients with severe single left-sided valvular heart disease in 79.4% of those with AS, 77% with aortic regurgitation, 68.5% for mitral stenosis, and 71% for primary MR. Valvular interventions were performed in 2,150 patients during the survey. Of them, 47.8% of the patients with single left-sided native valvular heart disease were in New York Heart Association class three or four, and transcatheter procedures were performed in 38.7% of the patients with AS and 16.7% of those with MR. Dr Carolyn Lam:                Wow, Greg. So what are the take home messages? That was a lot of numbers. Dr Greg Hundley:             Yep. Lots of data there. And so couple things. First, recommendations for interventions in symptomatic patients with severe valve disease are better applied today in this paper than in the previous European survey conducted in 2001, particularly for those individuals with aortic valve disease. Second, multi-modality imaging is now more frequently used, but stress testing remains underused in asymptomatic patients. And finally, transcatheter therapies are now widely used in patients with stenotic valve disease, and we would expect that, particularly for the use in the elderly. Dr Carolyn Lam:                Great, Greg. So what are the clinical implications? Dr Greg Hundley:             Okay, so Carolyn, first, late referral for intervention shows the need for increasing awareness of valvular heart disease by general practitioners and cardiologists. Second, the high burden of elderly patients highlights the need for multidisciplinary heart team approaches to assess the risk benefit ratios of the different modalities of valvular interventions. And finally, number three, echocardiographic quantification of regurgitation should be more accurate and pay more attention to quantitative measurements. Those are the main take homes from this large registry analysis. Dr Carolyn Lam:                Nice. Thanks, Greg. My next paper is the characterization of the first transgenic mouse model of ARVC 5. Now, that is the most aggressive form of arrhythmogenic right ventricular cardiomyopathy caused by a specific mutation in transmembrane protein 43. So this paper's from co-corresponding authors, Dr Lara-Pezzi from CNIC in Madrid and Dr Garcia-Pavia from Hospital Universitario Porto de Hero in Madrid, and with their colleagues, they generated transgenic mice over expressing transmembrane protein 43 in either it's wild type or that specific mutant form in postnatal cardiomyocytes under the control of alpha-myosin heavy chain promoter.                                                 And they found that these transgenic mice expressing the specific mutant in transmembrane protein 43 showed fibro fatty replacement of the myocardium and died at a young age. The model confirmed that transmembrane protein 43 is mostly localized at the nuclear membrane and provides new information regarding the pathophysiological mechanisms underlying ARVC five. One of them is that the GSK3 beta signaling pathway plays an important role in this disease. Dr Greg Hundley:             So that's great, Carolyn. Sounds like we have a new model that's been created by this group and certainly this disease has spread. It's something we definitely worry about. Do you see any therapeutic implications for their work? Dr Carolyn Lam:                Great question, and indeed the authors tested two new therapeutic approaches for ARVC five. In the first they found that targeting fibrosis really had no beneficial effect. But in the second, they found that inhibition of GSK3 beta improved cardiac function and survival, thus opening the way to a new therapeutic approach focused on GSK3 beta inhibition in patients with ARVC five. Dr Greg Hundley:             Very good. So we look forward to seeing what the results of that study will be. How about now we talk about some of the other articles in this issue? Dr Carolyn Lam:                I love that. I think it's a great idea to tell everybody about this amazing issue. So we start with an article from our Global Rounds, and this time from Argentina, so a great status update and future strategies for cardiovascular disease in Argentina. We also have a perspective paper and that's on the new World Symposium on Pulmonary Hypertension guidelines, really questioning some of the cutoffs that we've taken for granted and asking, "Should 21 be the new 25?" Intrigued? Well, you really need to pick this one up and read it.                                                 And then there's a white paper, and this is a report from the 2018 NHLBI workshop that really talks about unlocking the secrets of mitochondria in the cardiovascular system and asking if this may be a path to cure in heart failure. We also have a research letter, and I love these. They're so succinct and really contain an important message. And this one talks about the evolution of Medicare formulary coverage changes for antithrombotic therapy after the guideline update. So very topical subject. Dr Greg Hundley:             Very good, Carolyn. So I've got a couple. There's a Paths to Discovery article that John Rutherford did discussing with Paul Zimmet regarding reflections of the evolving global diabetes epidemic. Second, there is a very nice On My Mind piece from Samuel Tretheway from Birmingham, England who discusses medical misinformation, kind of like medical fake news. And he discusses how this occurs and it depends on the motivation of both authors and publishers, and he reviews responsibilities of all of us, how to avoid generating this type of material. And then finally, a really interesting Cardiology News piece by Bridget Kuehn, who discusses diet and microbes in heart failure, and with that there's a very nice piece of artistry work that would be great for your office. So that's all included in the journal. Dr Carolyn Lam:                Oh, you got us all curious. Finally, I just want to highlight, we have a section called Highlights from Major Meetings, and this time from my part of the world with Dr Aijun Sun and Dr Junbo Ge summarizing the 13th Oriental Congress of Cardiology takeaways. Cool issue, isn't it? Dr Greg Hundley:             Absolutely. So how about onto our feature discussion? Dr Carolyn Lam:                You bet, Greg. Dr Greg Hundley:             Welcome everyone to our feature discussion. And this afternoon or this morning, wherever you may be, we are going to have an opportunity to discuss the utility of paclitaxel-coated balloons in terms of management of patients with peripheral arterial disease. And our article today comes to us from Bill Gray and colleagues from Mainline Health in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And we have our own Josh Beckman, associate editor from Vanderbilt, who will be joining us in the discussion. Bill, welcome to Circulation. We really appreciate you sending us this article. Can you tell us a little bit about the background of why you wanted to perform your study and also, what was your study design, study population? Dr William Gray:               The study was really prompted by a prior report by Katsanos et al in JAHA about nine months ago. When we started this study, it was much more fresh. And what we did was we realized we had data from multiple studies using the Stellarex drug-coated balloon that we could use to address some of the issues raised with the Katsanos paper. Just to review that briefly, the Katsanos paper suggested that there was a significant mortality signal in patients who were randomized to drug-coated balloons using paclitaxel versus PTA or patients randomized to drug eluting stent versus PTA or other stents. That signal was seen late at two years and at five years, and so we sought a given the data, the tightly controlled and well-reported data and this experience to see if we could see a signal as well.                                                 The study design really involved taking all the data from the randomized trials, and there were two, which comprised an aggregate of about 600 patients, unequally randomized, about 400 in the drug-coated balloon arm and about 170 or 200 patients in the PTA arm. And then we also looked at all the poolable data, which was controlled data, so we had two randomized control studies I mentioned just a minute ago, as well as three single arm studies in one registry. Now, these had quality oversight and data reporting. And then those data were adjudicated for adverse events, including death, by a blinded third party CEC, and then those data reported out by Kaplan–Meier estimates as well, and then we do a multi-variable analysis looking at predictors of death, and then I can talk about that in a moment. Importantly, the data here has followed out to three years. As I mentioned before, the original paper which incited the concern had reported unequal deaths at two and five years, so we're somewhere splitting that difference. That's the genesis of the study and the study design. Dr Greg Hundley:             So Bill, tell us now about the results. Dr William Gray:               It turns out the baseline characteristics were largely similar between these trials and the patient arms, even though they weren't strictly speaking the same trials, except that the drug-coated balloon arm was a bit younger and smoked more frequently, so they were at a little bit more risk. In the randomized control analysis, which was done first, there was no difference in all-cause mortality between the PTA patients and the patients who received paclitaxel drug-coated balloons. That was true at one year, two years and three years. When we looked at the pooled analysis, which included not only the drug-coated balloon randomized trial patients, but also all the single arm studies and registries, we also found that there was no differences between those treated with drug-coated balloons in those additional studies and the control group of 170 patients in the randomized trial arm of PTA alone.                                                 Interestingly, when we started to look at the multi-variable analyses, we did something that we ordinarily would not do, but because of the pressing issue around paclitaxel mortality, we actually did a standard covariate analysis looking at predictors and then we forced drug and drug dose into the model to see if they would come up positive as a predictor of outcome. As you might expect, not surprisingly, we found that age, congestive heart failure, diabetes and renal insufficiency were the four major predictors of mortality in a group of patients who were largely claudicates with significant peripheral vascular disease. No surprise there. We all know the patients don't die of claudication, they die of cardiovascular disease, and this I think bears that out.                                                 When we force drug into the model, in point of fact, not a dose nor the presence of drug had any impact on death rates in the model, so there was no predictive value there whatsoever. Those are the results. Again, they're out to three years, and I think one of the important things that we have to recognize is that the numbers are relatively small and the follow-up is relatively limited and by itself, although it doesn't show any signal, it probably doesn't stand on its own to refute a larger meta-analysis, but does I think contribute to the dataset that is becoming more evident that the individual analysis do not appear to show mortality effects. Dr Greg Hundley:             Very good. So this is Dr Josh Beckman at Vanderbilt University. Josh, could you talk to us a little bit and put this paper in perspective relative to the prior published literature in terms of how you manage patients with peripheral arterial disease? Dr Joshua Beckman:        I have to say first, I'm really glad that we're able to publish this paper from Bill Gray and his group. We are, and I'm going to put this in really muted terms, in extraordinary times. I have never seen what is going on now happen with any other technology or really even medical therapy in the 20 plus years I've been a practicing physician. I think for the audience, it's really important to understand what is going on right now because if you don't pay attention to this space, you may not realize what's really been happening. Bill did a nice job at telling you why he did the study, which was this Katsanos aggregate level meta-analysis that was published in JAHA back in December.                                                 On the basis of this paper, there has been a rapid development of worry and concern that these devices may be associated with late mortality. This concern has spread to the Food and Drug Administration, which has now put out three letters to healthcare professionals, each of them basically suggesting that you should choose non drug-coated either balloons or stents first, and if you want to use these, you have to have an extended conversation with the patients discussing the risks. And so in response to this aggregate level meta-analysis, which had an extensive number of lost to follow-up patients and didn't account for crossovers and the usual problems with this kind of information, I have been really impressed by the community of people who are interested in this topic and work with these kinds of devices.                                                 And by that, I mean, the response has not just been a series of editorials. The response has really been, "Let's find every single piece of data that we can find to see whether or not this signal holds up," because as evidence-based physicians, we take one piece of data and say that it is one piece of data, and then we have to put it into the context of all of the other pieces of data that were published. And so I know that Dr Gray is old enough to remember 10 years ago when these devices were being used in the coronary arteries with drug eluting stents. And as far as anybody can tell with studies that were two to three times larger or meta analyses two to three times larger than the study published in December, there was no mortality signal.                                                 It should be made clear that in doses that dwarf the doses from these devices, when these medications are given to pregnant women who have breast cancer, not only is the mother fine but the fetus is fine. And so I think paper that we are discussing this morning in particular, but the group of investigators in the space has really stepped forward to publish as much data as possible to fill out our understanding and place the original study in the correct context. And so when you understand what's happening in the community, and there's been a significant reduction in the use of these devices on the basis of that one publication at the expense of patients for whom these devices are really much better at limb outcomes, then you can understand why we were so interested in the paper by Dr Gray.                                                 This is another brick in creating the foundation to really have a fuller and better understanding of any possible relationship between the use of these devices and a nonspecific increase in mortality two to five years later, which as far as I can tell, I've never seen something that may end up being a poison that doesn't have a specific mechanism of causing morbidity or mortality. And so when we got this paper, I was really happy to be able to work with Bill and bring it to the level that it is now so that when it's published in October, it's going to be another really important contribution and I just want to congratulate the authors for doing that work. I will say, and I'd like to get Bill's perspective on how he thinks the information that's now being published is going to help us understand what to do with these devices. Dr William Gray:               Yeah, that's a great question, and I want to emphasize something you brought up, which I did not, which is at the aggregate level data that Katsanos used to publish his analysis was really all he had access to, which means that he had some numerical data from prior published publications but did not have patient level data. And so what Josh is referring to appropriately is the concept that each individual holder of those data, those patient level data, are now coming forward with their own analysis of those data at a patient level, which allows us to look more granularly and more clearly at the causes of death. For example, in this study, the causes of death did not cluster around cancer. They were largely cardiovascular, and they were not dis-equally distributed or unequally distributed between the two groups.                                                 So I think that patient level data, to get back to your original question, Josh, the patient level data will be incredibly important from each of the experiences with the various drug-coated balloons and drug eluting stents on the market because it does allow us to look more closely at the mechanism of death and whether there's any putative cause that might be assigned to paclitaxel. As you mentioned, the pharmacology of this is not understandable. The only type of pharmacology that would work like this was if paclitaxel was radioactive and accumulated a hazard along the way, but we know that's not true.                                                 I think extend your question, it's important to say that both the FDA and other independent groups like VIVA have looked closely at the meta analytic data both from a patient level and aggregate level data set, and they have seen a signal at five years. The problem with that is that data starts to winnow down very quickly at five years. There's not a lot of numbers, so that's the first problem, and the meta-analysis that have followed the publication by Katsanos. The second problem is, as Josh alluded to, there's a lot of missing data. Either patients withdrew or got lost to follow-up, and that didn't happen at an equal distribution between the control and the active arms, so there's some ascertainment bias there.                                                 And lastly, there's a crossover, that is patients who are in the control arm crossed over near as we can tell at a rate of about one in five or one in four to an active arm in the first year alone, which means they need to be reassigned to a risk pool that includes the original assignment of paclitaxel randomization. My sense is that those data will not get any better in the near-term future because the problems I just listed are not going to go away anytime soon. And so we are left with these individual patient level data and other big data, like Medicare analyses of tens of thousands of patients or Optum insurance analyses of again, tens of thousands of patients, which actually show no difference between the treatment with paclitaxel in the real world and patients treated with non-paclitaxel devices. So while we are comfortable and happy to publish these data and we think that are meaningful in terms of contributing to the larger dataset, we recognize the flaws and the limitations in the meta-analysis, which will not be solved soon or quickly. Dr Joshua Beckman:        So, I totally agree with what you just said. I will also say that every time data like this is published, it adds to the picture to make our understanding clearer. And you are responding directly to the Food and Drug Administration, who basically said they are not settled on this question either. It is noted, they are worried about it, and what they've really asked for is for more data to be published. And so when people analyze data like these, I think it is really helpful to the rest of us to create a fuller and more granular picture of the overall state of the field. Dr Greg Hundley:             We want to thank again both Josh for his time and Bill for his time. Hope you have a great week, and both Carolyn and I look forward to sharing with you again next week. Take care everyone. Dr Carolyn Lam:                This program is copyright American Heart Association 2019.  

  Let’s talk about those three little words that are brought up when you’re dating. So I overheard someone say that it's so hard to say those three little words. I immediately thought of the words I LOVE YOU.  Right? I mean wouldn't you? We’ve been so marketed to by hallmark and diamonds are for every type of campaigns that when we think of the three little words we think of  I LOVE YOU. But as the conversation continued and I heard the three words they were not I love you but were I HAVE HERPES. I honestly can’t remember where I heard this but I thought it was a great question and even better for us to have a discussion about. Right? So the thought crossed my mind, is it harder to say I love you or I have herpes? I’ll share my personal experiences with the words I love you and my experience with I have herpes. Both are equally important words and both can change the course of your relationship.  I mean if you say, “ I love you” too early in a relationship it can be doomed. I mean you might send the other person running for the hills or heck, you might even be that person running. Lol… we’ve all been the person who is the stage five clinger and all about the I love yous way to soon and we’ve all been on the receiving end of that I love you when suddenly there’s an awful gulp in your throat.  Regardless the three little words are very strategic.  Now let’s talk about saying, “I have herpes” too soon. Because of the herpes stigma that’s not something you can just drop on someone.  Think about it, the same thing can happen as I love you. Some people will run away as fast as they can and others will be totally fine with it. But a ton of it has to do with how and when you say it.  So in my personal experiences, I’d tell guys I have herpes without even thinking about it. Whether this is right or wrong I’d use it as a way to get out of sleeping with them. Again… don’t judge me for it. And of course sometimes my plan would backfire on me and I would have to come up with some other excuse...lol.  But there were two men that I dated and wanted to date and wanted to sleep with that I had both conversations with. One is my ex-boyfriend and the other was my husband. Obviously, we know how it turned out with my husband, Bill.  But don’t worry, I’ll share that story too.  When it came time to tell my ex-boyfriend that I had herpes I was really nervous. We’d been dating for about 3 months but we’d known each other for a number of years so I felt pretty comfortable with him. But still we were dating for 3 months and I wasn’t sure where our relationship was going. Were we just yoga, Saturday farmers market, and dinner date friends or were we going to take our relationship to the next level and have sex? I knew I couldn't just put in his court and see if he made a move. If I waited for him to make the move I’d feel like it would have been a bad time to have the I Have Herpes convo. Right? So I decided to tell him over dinner one Saturday night. We were at a local San Diego restaurant across the street from my house, Bankers Hill Bar. It’s so good by the way and totally get the burger! Anyway, we were having dinner and I decided to tell him. I said, “I have herpes.” And then went eek in my mind. I have to say telling him that I have herpes was not only more difficult than saying I love you to him but the most difficult guy to tell. I honestly can’t remember when we started saying I love you. He probably said it first but it could be the other way around. I really can’t remember.  But we dated for three years so obviously the I have herpes conversation went well. He did a really good job of asking questions, trusting me and at the end of the day, he wanted to be with me and didn’t care. Also, he never got herpes. We had a great relationship and we both were open and communicated. In this particular situation having the “I Have Herpes,” talk was much harder.  Now let’s talk about my husband, Bill. Before I started writing this and prepping for the post I brought this up to Bill. I said, “what do you think of this topic?”Do you like the idea of I love you and I have herpes? What was so interesting is we started to talk about our relationship. And I realized that telling Bill I love him and telling Bill that I have herpes were both easy conversations. I mean really easy. Why? Probably because I knew in my heart and soul that we loved each other and I knew that having herpes didn't matter. I also had done a ton of work on myself and truly believed that if anyone didn’t love everything about me including herpes he wasn’t worth my time. And I knew that Bill loved all of me.  Ok.. so I know you’re like get to the story about telling Bill. Well, I can remember right where I was when I told him I loved him and right where I was when I told him I have herpes. Both were beautiful moments. When I told Bill I have herpes, we weren't dating we weren't even together. We worked together and our work team was like family. So Bill noticed that something wasn’t right and asked what was wrong. This was the day that I was diagnosed with herpes so clearly, I was at my lowest point. I told him, “I have herpes” and I collapsed on the floor crying. He was so sweet and said you’re a strong and beautiful person you will get through this and I ‘m here for you. I consider you my family so please let me know if there’s anything I can do.” I still have the voicemail he left me after this conversation. It was so touching.  Let me fast forward a couple of years to the I love you. So I’m sure you can imagine that when I told  Bill I loved him there was no big lump in my throat or bad feeling in my tummy. It was the exact opposite and I couldn't wait to tell him that I loved him. So it happened when we were having a conversation about dating. We weren't dating yet and were having the adult conversation about it. You know how that goes, once you date it changes the course of your and we wanted to make sure we discussed it all. So in that conversation I just blurted out, I Love You!” And Bill looked up at me and said, “I love you too!” It was natural and not hard to say. It was a precious moment.  Ok so to wrap this up...I’m going to throw the question back to you? I’ve had all the combinations of the I Love You’s and the I have herpes convos. All of them were unique and all of them happened at the right time for where we were in the relationship. So what do you think is harder? Have you had the conversations? Let me know.  Life With Herpes Details: Join the Secret Society  HerpAlert (use promo code: lifewithherpes and get 10% off) Shop the LWH Essentials   Oh yea, remember to subscribe to the Life With Herpes newsletter and get The 5 things  I wished she knew before I was diagnosed with herpes sent directly to your inbox + weekly updates.    Xoxo, Alexandra   Just in case… Learn about the Herpes Outbreak Toolkit: Need to talk confidentially about herpes?  Oh Yea and in case you need Herpes Outbreak Essentials   Are you social?  Instagram Facebook  

Bill is a UAS Solutions Director, Professional Drone Pilot and Owner/President of Eagle Eyes UAS About Bill Bill says he’s always been kind of a techno nerd. While working a project in Florida several years ago, he came across a professional pilot who was someone he perceived as worth knowing. “I kept his information and then when I moved over to the area where he lives, I looked him up and I said, 'Hey, what are you doing?' He told me he was in the drone industry. As someone who believes in going after technology when it first comes out (even though not perfected) drones had already caught my attention.” Bill’s contact then started sharing ideas of what he was doing. With a background in sales and marketing, Bill saw an opportunity to be in the beginning of an industry which, if done right, he could really do well with it. So Bill started working with his connection for about a year, not making a lot of money but learning from his business skills, about drones and orthomosaic imagery. He then took the Part 107 and did very well. Starting A Business What happened next was ironic. Bill had branched out on his own doing inspection work of the damage after Hurricane Irma. Bill felt himself an apprentice of drone work during this time. He learned about a variety of different equipment and he learned just by flying drones. “The learning experience was mostly good...a few bad. There's never a dull moment. To me, flying a drone is somewhere between super exciting and terrifying.” At that point, Bill’s inspection work wasn’t for insurance companies, because insurance companies, like many industries, know that drones exist, but they don't know how they can benefit them. Bill said it took time for people to embrace and understand drones. According to Bill “Your job is going to be more on educating than flying a drone. You need to become a master educator and someone who can explain whatever industry vertical market you're going into. You need to be able to explain 'what's in it for me?', 'why do I need this technology?' 'How is it going to make my life better?' We understand it as pilots and we learn it more and more every day. We learn new applications and we read about them. But the bottom line is you've got to become good at educating people and making it simple. Don't get complicated. With most people, the simple aspect of how this can help them on their job or business is where you're going to gain customers.” Bill started out with a Phantom 3. He understood orthomosaic imagery and had been flying enough. “I already had one drone stuck in the tree and then another one I whacked it into a wall. It was a friend's and broke off the camera. You do these things and you not only learn to fly drones but not to fly it where there's a lot of trees.” Bill’s Simple Marketing Advice Bill suggests you learn the basics before trying to get fancy--things can happen. Bill literally started in the community where he lives. The manager asked what he would charge for it, told him to do some before/after pictures of their pool project and even suggested he charge $1,000. That’s how he came up with a per acre rate for doing orthomosaic imagery. He flew again and again. Then he literally went down the street and knocked on the doors of the managers of other buildings. He got into a couple of them; he did some research online. “One called another and told another and then I had four associations that wanted to hire me—all of a sudden I was busy. Then I started calling up other community association managers, you know, just googling names. Through picking up the phone and calling people or driving by with some marketing material, I just kept sharing what I could do.” The Secret To Roofing Inspections Bill says that in South Florida you can't get a roofer to come out and inspect only 2-3 association buildings. If  you have 20 buildings on your site, you don't want to send your maintenance guy up there to walk around and see what kind of structural damage there is because the potential for him to break a leg, or fall off while trying to take pictures is ridiculous. “When I explained that I could fly a 20 acre location in 30 minutes and in 24 hours I could give them detailed pictures of damage on the rooftops---they got excited. Without exception, I hand-delivered the results via thumb drive. They were blown away because I showed them how they could literally use the snipping tool on a windows PC and take each individual roof mark up where the damage is, but, more importantly, they could see which one needed immediate attention, where they might want to throw a tarp on and which didn't need any attention.” Bill found out this was important because after it rains, water intrusion would further damage the building. That was one of the best things that could happen because he could sell the before and after so they could do a comparison and show insurance companies how it worked. Bill’s advice, if you’re seriously looking at this business, is, “If you're a shy introverted person, you're going to have to change that; this business requires you to go out there and talk. But here's the thing, if you were educating yourself on drone technology and what they're capable of doing, and you can get a few neat stories under your belt and people are going to be interested in this. I just did a continuing education class that I got certified for." Expansion Is About Educating And Helping Others With Good Ideas “The class I teach is everything you always wanted to know...you're going to know more than 99% of the people on Earth about drones. I show them all kinds of neat things. If you're going out there selling insurance or credit card processing, you're going to get beat up. Go out there and talk to people about drones and specifically what they can do for them. Give them good examples.” For example, every seven years a high rise gets a paint job. Typically, they'll go out and get a paint job quote but once they get up there and start painting and see damage, it could double or triple in price. So I suggested, why not inspect the building every couple of years, take some HD photos, some 4K video, up and down, get some roof shots of chillers and AC equipment, etc.” Bill made phone calls to a list for one area. He set up meetings left and right. Since starting that, he’s done at least $10,000 in business in that segment alone. Now, he’s beginning to get traction through referrals. For this type of work, on the low end, Bill can make $650. The high end could be anywhere between $1,000-2000. Bill charges $400/hour pending on what he does. For video editing, he can charge $100/hr. For bigger or multiple buildings, there's more money to be made. All Bill does, he says, is to show them examples of what he’s done for other people and how he found problems in places that nobody would ever see.  According to Bill, that’s just one vertical market to look into. You have to determine what your market is. David agreed, “When you find these little problem points and then you educate people about how these drones can help save a bunch of money and heartache...once you get in and you just start talking to people, you're able to see more of the issues and problems. THEN your brain starts moving and thinking about how you can help and solve that for them.” “We’re here to solve problems. You find problems by going out and talking to people. I always tell people the drone is just the vehicle. It could be a big drone, small drone. It can be this drone, that drone. There are a lot of great drones out there that take super good photos. But just because you go out to buy a drone does not make you a business. You need to solve problems. You need to be a business person about it. You need to know everything from being incorporated, to having a business bank account to managing and writing invoices for customers.” Potential In New Markets: Listening, Passion & Branding On construction sites, helicopters are used for taking updated photos, but most of them are from so far away. There's no real super close up high quality. Construction, to Bill, is still far behind. They still have not fully embraced what the potential is with the drone. "We need to find the pain, and then you come in and you talk to them about solving that problem with them. If you find the problem the drone can solve, they're going to be all ears. It's about listening. If you've studied drones for one day, you'll know more than 99% of the people out there. So if you get a couple of stories, you'll wow them. If you've got some pictures and things you can show or videos, it may not take much to impress people—but you can't BS them. If you really are passionate about what you are doing here and you’ve figured out 2-3 vertical markets to go after, people are going to listen and it's going to take time. It's going to take at least a year or two." David asked about a good way to get clients—a specific strategy. “Would you do it the same exact way or would you kind of switch it up from what you had been doing?” Bill asserts that people need to get involved in networking organizations specific to a particular area of focus. “I did a story in the local chapter magazine in an area of Florida. I talked about why you need to start budgeting for drone services. For example, we have hurricanes and even though they're going to need it afterwards, they should be thinking about doing it beforehand. You should start documenting now that it's not that expensive. Document the properties that you manage, whether it's a high rise or a or a 100-acre low rise. For example, I had a customer who had 116 acres and the charge came out to less than $5 a family to get unbelievable orthomosaic detailed imagery. If they did that once or twice a year, that's nothing for the value they're going to get.” For construction, what he needed to do was some free flying to get some pictures, videos and orthos. He then edits photos and videos to anywhere between 4 and 6 minutes and puts music to it. They love it because he's showing the owners of these projects that people were actually spending the tens or hundreds of millions. Bill says, “So if you're going to do construction, call on some construction companies, talk to some project managers, talk to the people that do their budgeting and their estimating. Have some materials, a little bit about your business. Understand that in the beginning, it's not going to be the most perfect thing...it will feel awkward.” David agreed that even though people complain about not being able to make money, he sees that successful people are the ones who have taken initiative to learn some skills to help people solve some problems. David says, “People assume, ‘oh, if I can spend $1,000-1500 bucks on a drone, I should be able to go out and everybody should be clamoring for my unique skills.’ But it really comes down to all the other stuff you learned, right? How to make the orthomosaic maps, how to do the editing, how to pitch someone on an idea, and how to approach someone.” Bill replied, “If you're going to do this as a business, then do not treat it as a hobby. Focus on this for six months really hard and be willing to put in 10 to 12 hour days, be willing to go out and meet people over a cup of coffee or go to their office. If you're going to run it as a business, you need to show the people that you're running it as a business because if you don't, if they think you're just some kid or somebody who just like you said, bought a Maverick, it's going to come across that way.” He suggests creating a basic website, doing a little bit with social media, getting good at using things like Outlook, Excel, PowerPoint and Word. Dropbox is great for sharing big files. For marketing, he says you also need to have things like a logo, brochures, business cards, etc. “Go to events in shirts with your logo on or a cap or something like that--brand yourself. Tell people who you are and what you represent.” “I'm a professional. I am licensed and insured, and I tell that to people point blank in each of my presentations. If somebody comes to you and wants to fly a drone and they're not licensed, run, don't walk. And if they're not insured? Run faster because that means they're not serious about the business. For $1 million of flying insurance, a drone is going to run you about $500- $600—if you can't afford that, you shouldn't be in business.” The most successful businesses out there have a big “WHY?” behind them. Take Apple for example. There's a why behind what they do and the way they do it. For me it's the sharing and the educating of people on how this technology can change their life—it's literally getting them to go WOW, or seeing their eyes pop when they suddenly see that I can really help them manage this property." Enjoying the Business—and The Results Bill says, “My favorite part of this business is that no two days are the same. If you put me in a factory to make widgets and I had to do the same thing eight hours a day, five days a week, 50 weeks a year, I’d probably kill myself. Today, I've set up three meetings with people for this Thursday I've got a meeting or a presentation and about a month in front of a group of 50 people for a 115-acre site. And, this is not to to to brag, but I'll share with you some of the $ detail of those jobs. Within the last two months, I've got projects for $935, $1,800, $650, $550, $1,200, $1,925, etc. I don't do much real estate, but I can earn $200 for 1 1/2 hrs of time. Not all my months are like that, but my business has been building.” Bill monitors sales every month on a spreadsheet and compares it versus where he was a year ago. He’s always looking for the growth and has had months where he’s made little or nothing.  He defines himself as successful because he’s created it and is moving in the right direction...every day he's doing a little bit and it's fun. Flying the drone is really a small part of it—most of the time is spent on the phone, on the computers and emails, sending invoices, making deposits (which is always a good thing). David and Bill both agree, “The biggest thing for people to take away is yes, it is possible. Maybe you're not going to get rich your first year...maybe not your second year...maybe not even your third year, but if you're in it to get rich, then you should do something else. Build your business. There are many different areas—pick one to three, stick with it and understand it's like planting an apple seed. You put the seed in, but don't think in six months you're going to be selling apples. It'll maybe take a year or two and then all of a sudden you have a tree with multiple apples. You can sell all those apples, but you'll do a lot of work in the meantime. Then you can charge, because you know you have confidence in yourself." Bill sees flying a drone as the beginning, but people should have a specialized skill—orthomosaic, video editing; you can combine these things. Bill feels confident charging what he does because he knows he’s going to give people at least that in value, if not more. His  goal is always to under-promise and over deliver. “Let them know you're a generous person and you're willing to go above and beyond. You know... Give them a little bit more...Separate yourself. Are they going to remember how you were branded? That you dressed nice? Did he have business cards? Did he follow up when he said he would?  Bottom line, yes, there is money to be made. We are still in the very beginning, infancy stage here.” “You only need one good idea to, to spark a revolution. I'm sure there's some great ideas out there from other folks too, so I'm looking forward to it.” Connect with Bill Bill's Website: www.eagleeyesuas.com See videos on YouTube channel: www.YouTube.com Have a Drone Business? Want to be Interviewed for Season 2? Complete this questionnaire: Drone to 1K Business Owner Application Training from Drone Launch Academy Part 107 Exam Prep Course ($50 off) Aerial Video A to Z Course (20% off) Other Places to Listen iTunes Stitcher Google Play Spotify TuneIn

Between comic book conventions, illness and work the Comic Book Bears boys have been super busy in June but there was no way they were going to let Pride Month close without getting an episode out to you. So Bill and Steve are presenting to you this "Pride Quickie" where you get to hear about their first Pride experiences and a nice dose of queer comic book reading talk. Happy Pride!  

Bill plays a strategic role not only in role-based development, but how people, systems, and departments can positively impact the success of the Sales teams, and ultimately their companies. He believes salespeople come to work every day to be successful in their role, and there is an opportunity through architecture to enable their roles in a meaningful way.  WHAT YOU WILL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE: How to use Storytelling in Sales How to build Storytelling Sales library within your company How AI and Video Will Change Sales  SHOW NOTES [01:03] Welcome Bill [01:09] Introducing co-host, Sahir [01:26] Business success stories that inspire Bill [01:58] Creating a Coaching culture within the organization [03:52] Call recording as game films [05:08] Gary Milwit story  [06:50] Working as a group [07:50] Creating a sustainable system (library of stories) [08:51] Sport and sales analogy [09:00] How Bill got into sales [13:46] Learning to be brief and specific [15:25] Speak and write in bullets [16:33] Tailoring messages [17:16] The importance of mentors [17:49] Expanding your network [18:15] Self-development [19:00] Taking a cue from your network [19:30] Education and learning [20:13] Learning and development [20:20] Digital Intelligence Systems  [22:18] Institutional knowledge [23:33] How storytelling affects sales [24:34] Behavior change [25:05] Customer [25:56] Neuro-coupling phenomena during  [26:44] Encouraging salespeople [27:32] Talent [27:37] Environment [28:24] Compensation and incentives [29:23] Pipeline review [30:48] Sales trends to watch out for [31:19] The role of Videos and AI [33:19] new Prospecting models [33:33] The art of storytelling for Bill  [34:14] Contact info Show transcript   Ed Bilat :                        00:31                Hello, this is Ed Bilat Joining me today is Bill Ball, the director of learning and development. of digital intelligence systems. Bill Is also a founding member of sales enablement society and he's very passionate about sales talent management, sales enablement, and sales effectiveness. Bill plays a strategic role load on them in the role of the development, but how people, systems and departments can positively impact the success of producers and ultimately are companies deal with. Welcome to the show. Bill Ball:                        01:05                Hey, thanks for having me. Ed Bilat :                      01:06                Absolutely great to have you on the show. I will be joined today by Sahir Ponderay is my co-pilot and the cohost as well here in Ottawa today. Bill, I'm thrilled to have you on the show. Thank you for joining us. We would love to hear your story, but before we do this, I will ask you all a traditional question. What type of business success story inspires you and why? Bill Ball:                        01:30                So I thought about this and there are quite a few entrepreneurial stories that excite me, but I thought one that maybe I was a part of where I wasn't the ultimate success, but I was really proud to be a part of it is something that I thought I would share. Ed Bilat :                       01:43                Sure. Bill Ball:                        01:44                Great. So most businesses from a sales standpoint strive most modern businesses, and I'm throwing this out as not just a shared truth among sales organizations, but I think it's probably a universal truth at this point that many sales organizations are striving to have a coaching culture of some kind. So late two thousand I was working for an organization where we had one. We were really proud of it. You know, the job market at that time I think helped us a little bit where we had to people with greater tenure who are willing to give their time back. You know, they were brought in and they knew if they were sitting next to great other people doing their job, they'd be able to cross-pollinate and learn things from each other. So we created a circle of veteran peers who were coaching their peers and everybody was getting coaching from the leadership as well. But it's just, you know, as well as I do, people tend to make changes when they see their peers making those changes. They'll take guidance from the leaders, but they really make changes when they see peers making changes. Ed Bilat : 02:43                Absolutely. This is something useful. Let's see. Okay, I need to this for myself as well. Bill Ball:                         02:48   Exactly. So that got a little bit more challenging when the job market improved because you know, we were fine, but at the same time, we had people sort of circulating in out, because we're hiring a lot of recent college grads and so we had people circulating in and out, no fault of theirs. They were learning, you know, what they wanted to do or coaching culture was still solid. But you know, eventually, even with a coaching culture, you can't rely on entirely new people to carry a torch of that pure coaching because they don't have the experience and at some point, it becomes a little bit of the blind leading the blind. You don't know who was a real leader. Yeah, it's the last thing that you want to have happened is yes, great coaching culture, but you have what's called rogue coaching where it's like, well, hey, I don't know how everybody else is doing this, but this is how I do it. Bill Ball:                       03:38                Start multiplying that across the workforce. You know, it wasn't total pandemonium or anything like that, but it was just not like it was. At the same time, we started looking at technology to help with this kind of thing. We were an early adopter of thinking about, I mean this is an inside sales organization, so we're thinking about call recording as game film, which was very progressive at that time. We're talking mid to late two thousand so a little bit of a different story now, but very progressive. Then where you know, you bring up call recording. I think in some organizations now anyway, and they're still thinking, okay, this is the big brother, you know, why do you want to listen to my stuff? Versus thinking like, okay, most athletes watch game film to get better. But being a younger company and being noodle this and being sort of, you know, pioneers on are trailblazers. Bill Ball:                        04:27                We didn't roll it out very well. So some people you know appreciate it. Some people did and the technology wasn't where it is today. It was a little bit of a struggle. And so this forced us to learn a lot about change management, but we eventually did get to a place of where we were reviewing at least as leaders one on ones with people and listening to their calls and talking to them about their game film. And that was great, but we still weren't back to that pure coaching level. You know, like if appears going to review the game, fill them with another peer and they're both, you know, three to six months in like there's only so much advantage that can be gained from that. So we had a lot of friends. The previous business owners that I worked for a long time, we're pretty well connected within the inside sales world. Bill Ball:                        05:07                And there was one gentleman, his name's Gary Milwit, he works for a financial firm in Maryland. He's the sort of prototypical ex-football coach. Really tough guy that you know you either love or hate, but his people loved him. I believe he was an AI espy award winner for a sales leader one year too. Yeah, sounds like a really good combination. I mean I would see someone in those boats feel, especially coaching athletes would have a really good understanding of how to communicate with someone and actually help coach and various aspects of sales, like how to close a deal or how to pitch properly for certain. And so he like us had started embracing call recording may be a little after we did, but either way, he was starting to use it with his team as a group. And so we went and visited him and wash that an action. Bill Ball:                        06:01                And it's not as simple as you think there are rules, you know, everybody has to know. It's a safe place. Like there are certain kinds of comments that aren't allowed there. Certain kinds of comments that are allowed. There was, you know, in some way, like I think he had sort of stumbled into something that was tremendous. We brought it back to our organization and that was the whole reason we sat in, you know, we're like, hey, we want to see what's happening here. We want to see if this is something that's viable to bring back. And ended up being something that was really viable to bring back. So we started testing it with the CEO leading and testing out those rules. And it started out as a one-way conversation. But what it ultimately branched out to was I led them and our managers led them and our peers led them and we started breaking down those moments of the conversation where something really valuable happened. Bill Ball:                        06:51                And when you can do that as a group, it's so much more powerful than when you know you're sitting next to your neighbor as a sales peer and you're saying what happened? And you know, everybody remembers that last objection. But maybe three minutes before that, the call, you know, went off track somewhere. So being able to do that as a group and start establishing business specific best practices around that was a huge, huge win for us. The ultimate thing that happened though was it became a pure coaching thing again because we identified the key elements of conversations and we identified how to get better at them as a group and the top of the mountain ended up being every month we actually hosted a call competition where people would submit calls to their managers, the managers would submit them to myself and the business owners. We would judge and in some cases you know down the road, left appears judge and play them all back, you know, in a group meeting once a month. So using that and then actually taking these call recording elements and putting them in a library where people could say, okay, I want to hear what good objection handling sounds like or I want to hear what a good introduction sounds like. By doing that, we were able to bring back a pure coaching culture because we're able to, you know, get new people onboard fast, understanding what good looks like. Ed Bilat :                       08:09                I love that example. I think that's a great story. And I see you combining two elements here. So one is a starting your own story library, right? So like that's what we're trying to teach our clans that instead of having those separate stories, why don't you create a company-wide library that at any given moment any member of your team can go and borrow a book, have the particular volume on the situation, their work you with. Right? Right. And another one is starting your own objection collection. The library, right? So this is what exactly you have done with his help or that coach. I think that's a terrific story. So thank you so much for sharing. I think it's the actually good segue to my next question. We just talked about the combination of sports and sales and then I do look at your Ed Bilat :                       08:56                own background. I see you been majoring in English and creative writing before. How did you even get into sales world yourself? Bill Ball:                        09:04                Good grief. So I grew up with a father as a traveling sales rep who worked for himself. Nowadays, it's not so exciting when the phone rings in your house, you know, whatever you say. I got it, I got it, I got it right. You know, back and forth caller id, that was a really big thing. But literally, 80% of the time the phone rang at my house. Everybody would run to get it. And it was from my dad defeating. So you know, between that and you know, me being a free spirit, you know, I think I thought more about how much I wanted to play in a band my last year and college. Then you know what I was going to do the next steps and hopefully, my parents aren't listing. Bill Ball:                        09:42                But when I finished school he was like, Hey, you want to come work for me? You know, I tried to say in the nicest way like, are you crazy? Why would they do this? Yeah. But you know what? You can't deny personas and DNA to some point. So I was always that friend who had to recommend music to other friends or restaurants to other friends. Like I was that connector friend. You know, I had a vision of what I wanted and what I liked. And I would say probably my wife would say I'm pretty outspoken about those things and sometimes to my own detriment. But eventually, I just needed to find something that I was passionate in. So I played in bands and I ended up working in a recording studio, which I thought was, you know, what I wanted to do, you know, meanwhile, I mean this was the probably late nineties so meanwhile there's a lot happening with technology. Bill Ball:                        10:30                At that point. There was the megahertz race and this was before gigahertz with apple and IBM. There are all kinds of interesting things. My friends and I were getting excited about that. One day I went into the studio and I was working there as initially an intern and then a second engineer because I wanted to learn how to document music. That was a big passion of mine and the band was late and it was myself and the head engineer, you know, he was like, Bill, I'm x, Y, Z years old. We're talking about technology and lots of things, different things happening and kind of the future, you know, eve absolutely. Flash was exciting, iPods were exciting. You know, like this was probably even right before those. So lots of the talk about, and he said, you know what, I love this job, but I'm in a dark room for a really long time and I don't make very much money. Speaker 1:                    11:18                It's a labor of love. But honestly, if I had picked a different trade, you know, I think I'd have more options now in this guy was one of my heroes. So it really made me think, you know, and I grew up, you know, even as misogynistic as it is watching James Bond and be like, I want to have awesome sports cars and I want to travel and meet amazing people. And so that really made me think like, okay, you know what? Maybe this is not my way forward. So I made a hard pivot. I did a few temp jobs. I eventually started working for a retail store that sold Apple products, and this was before Apple even had stores. So this is kind of like a small business consultant place and I was rough at first, but by the end of my first, let's say the month and a half, I was leading the rest of the company in sales and it was because I had found something that I was passionate about. Ed Bilat :                       12:10                Well, what was the need to challenge earlier on that? Obviously, you haven't been trained in sales, right? So you just have to see that this is your passion, this is where you can sort of how that alignment through the 11 goals. But what was, was he a major challenge Bill Ball:                        12:24                earlier on? Well, earlier on I didn't have a lot of challenges. It was easy for me to say, okay, this is what I have in inventory. These are the people coming in. If I ask them for what they want and I don't have it, I'm going to lose. Right? I mean, it's that straight forward. I need to just talk to them and break. Sort of the typical mold of the salesperson. I mean we had competitions with us, you know, how quickly can you get this middle-aged woman, you know, on a first name basis that comes into the retail store. You know, just those kinds of things because it wasn't a big mental challenge once you have the product knowledge. But after that, you know, thinking that okay, I'm doing great here, I'm off for my next sales job. And that ended up being a traveling rep job where I had to do a lot of self-motivation. Bill Ball:                        13:09                I wasn't prepared at all. I had no idea. I was used to people coming into me. So that was hurdle number one. But I think it's a big thing that really clicked for me because I went from retail sales to outside sales and then back into inside sales where I was like, okay, you know what? I haven't done this. I really like technology. I need to take a step back to take a larger step forward. And what I really learned first was because I wanted to advance quickly in that business was how to make a business case. And I didn't know because of my degree that you mentioned I was an English major. I'm clearly talky. I'm very verbal. So learning how to be brief and specific, Ed Bilat :                       13:47                which is not a bad thing at all, right? Bill Ball:                        13:50                Sure. But you have to learn how to annotate yourself, right? So learning how to be brief and specific and point to deliverables and measurables. The CEO and I did not get along well at first on that level, but once I learned how to communicate and speak that language, you know, I ended up being an email coach for a lot of other sales reps. Ed Bilat :                       14:10                This is where the real writing helps, right? Yeah. And unless soul, good copywriters, like extremely, extremely valuable now. And then like every little sentence, every little inclination that told humor, everything that comes into place, like the real art to creating something, what people will pay attention out of all the noise will even today. Right, Bill Ball:                        14:31                right. What's breaking the mold of all of the other vendor noise, right? Absolutely. We did say you were alone. Yes. I was a lot more verbose than I needed to be. You know, I thought I needed to tell the story of my work. Say I wanted a promotion or I wanted to see a change happen. Getting changes to happen in business, you have to completely translate what you're trying to achieve to the audience of the person you're reaching out to. So if you're talking to a CFO, right? Being an l and d person right now, if I go in with a bunch of Jingoistic Ellen Detox, you know I'm going to be talking to a wall. You have to translate what you're saying to the audience that you have. So I didn't understand how to speak to a CEO. I didn't understand, hey, these are the things that I've accomplished. This is why I want this promotion. This is what I expect to accomplish. And be able to point to actual results and speak and write in bullets and easily digestible things versus a diatribe I really had to learn that sat here. Ed Bilat :                       15:32                Yeah, absolutely. Look the white spaces and formatting as so many times, you know, when we're talking to the sales leaders and they say, okay, one of my sales are up, just send me an email and I'm reading it and I understand that it's a good idea. I just don't have 50 minutes to actually read it and the really, really comprehend it. And then you get another email where everything is bullet points, you know, concise. And there is a what the coke engagement call to action. Even the internal communication and say, well Kelly, I want to talk to him. I'm going to call him right now and we'll figure this out. Right? And as simple as it sounds, that's the entire decision making. And it happens internally. And of course, it happens when we see some customers. So I think it's a tremendous skill view house. So that's great. So thank you for sharing this. Bill Ball:                        16:18                First of all, it's making the message about the person, right? So it's the first thing that name mean to see that why is this relevant for me? You'd have to put yourself in their shoes. Anytime you're creating something for somebody else, even in a first sales email. So individually tailoring your message for your specific audience. Yes. And making it about them, not making it about you. So speaking in a language they can understand, but also if it's an initial message, if you're talking about a prospect, it's gotta be about them. The first thing, think about this. Think about what you do and what you think about when you're scanning your LinkedIn messages or you're listening to your voice mails or you're looking at your email box, you're looking at your subject line, you're looking at the length of that email. You're looking at who it's from, all of those things. You're looking for a reason to sort or flag, do I need to pay attention to this or can I dump it because you already have too much of it, right. So we have to be relevant as communicators internally or externally, really quickly. Ed Bilat :                       17:13                Absolutely. I love it. Idea. Cool. Do you follow in sales, where did you learn their craft? Bill Ball:                        17:19                Who was helping you? Oh Man. So there's been lots of people along the way. Naturally. I spent a lot of time at this business called Vorsight, which is now associated with a business called ExecVision. And I have to think all of the people that I work with, they're including the cofounders, Steve, Richard and David Stillman, David Stillman as the person who I really, you know, struggled with to learn how to speak to an established business case. And once I did it, yeah, we're still good friends. But I think, you know, this is a chance where there are people that I follow. What I would advocate is constantly expanding your network and going to events and getting out of your day to day because that's where you know, you're actually taking a pause to work on your own self-development. So people are helpful. You know, there are lots of really smart people out there, but just being able to take a little bit of time, you know, whether you're reading something or whether you're actually going to an event because at that one point you're finally just focused on your own self-development. Bill Ball:                        18:17                It's very difficult in your job to do that. You know, you may be thinking that you're getting developed and your job, and you certainly are for people like me, from sales managers, from your peers, but if you don't do that extra layer, it really doesn't help you establish perspective that you can bring back inward with the things that you learned. That would be my thought on who do I follow. You know, I meet people all the time. The other thing that I've learned along those lines, and we may talk about this a little later, is if you think that you have to have all the answers, you're in for a struggle. So knowing that I'm part of a group outside of my work in my profession called the sales enablement society, and there are lots of advantages we're trying to define that, take the profession forward, a number of major objectives. Bill Ball:                        19:00                But the thing that's been best for me is saying, you know what? I want to try this. You know who in my network, somebody in my network has tried this before and failed before me many times. So just realizing like you don't have to have all the answers and reaching out to somebody in that network that you've built to try to get that answer just inherently expands your perspective here. Two points. The first one is basically education is what other people trying to do to you and the alerting is what you're doing for yourself. So go into those events, finding something really valuable for yourself, those golden nuggets you can use right then the second one, not to underestimate the power over your network because we already have that connection. You already have your own think tank where you can go in. The old you've got to do is just to ask cause anyone has done that before. Bill Ball:                        19:54                These are correct and that was way more succinctly than I put it and it was okay. Great. We are always looking for golden nuggets, flow listeners in a certain shirt just right. Then we just in the middle of the interview, so let's move to the second area, which was really interesting on the profile, which is the learning and development and then, I've read one of the statements and obviously you work for a technology company, digital intelligence systems, will you guys do global staffing and 90 consulting? How did you get to do that with technology? For somebody in my profession, even though my title is one of the more generic titles, it's director of learning and development. I'm a salesperson by trade. Certainly, that's evident in my background and some of the things that we've discussed, but I'm also enablement focused, meaning that I'm looking to help our people in our organization, particularly our salespeople and our delivery people. Speaker 1:                    20:46                So I'm technically field enabled that sales enablement. I've got to care about the recruiters too, so they're part of my key audience. It's helping them with what they need to know and what they need to show and removing those hurdles out of the way, whether it's things that they need to get better at or you know, how other people in the organization are affecting them. So for me, I chose technology, not necessarily because of the industry, but partly because the work, because of the type of job, the type of job that I wanted to do and the type of challenge that I wanted to have was here. But for me it's also not just industry, it's people. When I came through the interview process, it staffing is a consolidated industry. You know, it's a tricky play right now for some of the organizations. A lot of people are being acquired or you're acquiring organizations. Bill Ball:                        21:34                We acquired another organization earlier this year, so I heard two things from the CEO that were very heartening to me. One that because of differentiation, he saw learning and development as a key strategy going forward to motivate and develop our people here. And he saw that as a differentiating factor to second. You know, he shared that same bit with me that I just shared in it. Staffing people are being acquired or they're acquiring others. Diocese is in the business of acquiring others. They want to grow. So those the two things that got me on board, the institutional knowledge, it was hard though. One thing I'd like to point out, I was at a previous organization for nine years and in a series of different roles, so being a part of the institutional knowledge to coming to an organization where I had no institutional knowledge, it was definitely intimidating and an interesting choice. Bill Ball:                        22:25                So I had to feel right with the direction the business was headed and for the type of work that I was going to do. Absolutely, because you're also a leader in your organization, right? There's a manager as a director, as a mentor, as a trainer, console him, coach. So you do know those things. So I owe loading in the operational technology, but I spend the majority of my time on development and talent. So I thought those were really interesting. Look, many people could formulate it like that. Well, that was a little bit of knowing my audience on Linkedin, right? So I teach salespeople how to be more effective, but certainly, salespeople are going to be looking at my profile and asking questions. I kind of wanted to set them up and say what I really care about is spotting gaps and then going to the technology versus like if you hit me up with, you know, a one trick pony email over Linkedin, I'm probably not going to respond to you. Bill Ball:                        23:16                It's all about the business strategy and working with the business to identify the gaps and then mapping the technology back versus saying, hey, there's some sexy new technology I need to run after it. I want to get this. And speaking of getting the attention, as a leader, as a coach, how do you think storytelling could help to motivate your sales team and actually drive the success in terms of reaching Oh, evil, Sebastien quarters or objectives? I think it's in three ways and if I get lost while I'm explaining this, hopefully, you'll hold me accountable. Okay. First off, it ties back to the story I told at the beginning of our conversation where peers make changes because appears I'm going to make changes because of what I learned from another enablement person. You know, salespeople are going to make changes from other salespeople that they admire or respect in the organization. Bill Ball:                        24:06                So when I do an in-person training for example, or if even online being able to have people have wind stories associated with the learning objectives, you know, even if it's just about a skill like objection handling or it may be something as small as setting agendas for meetings. Just seeing peers key in on that and see that behavior change is huge, but you have to tee that up with peer sharing that to peers. You know, I'm a little modest about talking about behavior change because I don't know if we necessarily need to change somebody's behavior. It almost sounds like we're brainwashing them a little bit, just changes in their game. They're going to learn that by hearing other peer stories. This is where I was, you know, this is what I discovered about myself. Hey, I'm just like you. So facilitating a way for peers to share stories is how you get them to try new things. Bill Ball:                        24:58                So that's the first way. You asked me about a few different ways. I would say the second way is with customers, right? And this is something that, you know, we have to challenge marketing with what story moves one customer from learning about you to being a little bit more curious, to want to have a serious conversation. Those are stories that drive each of those steps in their buying process. And it's the same for the salesperson. What stories can you tell that is going to drive a customer to everybody wants to see themselves in somebody else's shoes? It goes back to talking about messaging, how we were talking about messaging before you know, you want to quickly say you're looking in your email inbox. How is this relevant? To me, the most powerful way that we can make something relevant to somebody is through a story. Bill Ball:                        25:46                If they can see themselves in that story, they're captivated. It's in a conversation, it's in a training environment, it's in content. It's imperative, wonderful things. Captains, one would fill the story and the look of love that you will, the science one is assumption gold in euro and another one is called [inaudible]. So when you were accomplishing means that they actually made a research letter, good stories fold the Bulls brain, set up your rate on the same frequency and the person that you're telling the story too, they see themselves in that story. Right? So like it's happening to them. And so that's one and another one they actually feel you are empathy created, right? Because they understand the feelings and the neuro your emotions and you can't create as little was anything else marketing wise. So that's why it's so powerful. I'm so glad he already utilize it within the organization. Bill Ball:                        26:39                That's terrific. So here I think you had the questions. Yes, Bill, I was wondering what is the best way to motivate salespeople? There are obviously many bays like there are a bonus says exotic Krebs as like a VIP club. But what do you think is the best way to the morning where it tells people? I don't think there is a way. I think it's a combination of elements that end up driving performance and driving people. There's you being the best judge of talent if you're bringing the wrong kinds of people. And it may just be roles. You know, someone's not inherently good or bad, and I know that's a Duh, but you know, if you're looking for an account manager and you've got a hunter, I've actually seen that backward. I know a lot of people say, you know, I want hunters and not account managers. Bill Ball:                        27:22                Sometimes that's a backward thing. If you have somebody who just wants to break accounts and they don't want to do the work afterward to go broad, deep, you don't have the right person for the role. So talent would be one sec. The next would be the environment. You know, are people motivated by what's happening around them? Do you have an office where like nobody shows up because everybody's working from home? You've got to figure that out. How are people staying connected and staying motivated environment's huge? I'm a big advocate for loud and for people being able to hear each other and for that spring, everybody's development. I'm, you know, open, public transparent with information, data stories, that kind of thing because why not communicate it? Why not share it? So environments a big key, you know, I think we can debate the whole open office thing, but that's not where I'm going necessarily. Bill Ball:                        28:12                It's just a, you know if people are doing the same role, like they need to be able to see each other's work and be a part of each other's work to expand and grow their work and drive things. Obviously, the incentives, if the compensation and the incentives aren't in line, then you're already fighting a losing battle that makes it tough to hire. That makes it tough to retain people. Even if you do a great pitch in the interview process and you don't have incentives, then you're not motivating people. You're going to lose, you're going to have just a treadmill of new hires over and over again until you know Glassdoor eventually calls you out. Finally, there are a few other pieces, but understanding what good looks like and what success looks like in a job from activities to objectives to results and being able to show that employee what good looks like from these are the things you need to do day in and day out and this is the equation of things that you need to do to be successful. Bill Ball:                        29:02                What does success look like from a benchmark? Yes, results, right? A lot of people do it, but what's the map of activities that lead back to that result? There should be an equation there. And then finally, how are they using those activities and objectives and results to self-performance manage. You talk to managers and I think the quintessential thing is the idea of their one on ones being a pipeline review and those things are great, but you know what I would say is a, certainly use some of those pipeline reviews as coaching sessions instead on a particular skill that you've inspected. But B, if it's a pipeline review, have the employee do it, have them own that data and have them drive that conversation. You know, that lightens the lift on you and it also lets you know that they're hearing you if you guys have the same vision of objectives and results. Bill Ball:                        29:51                So I think it's a combination of all those things. And then when you start throwing out, I think you mentioned you know, Presidents Club, that kind of stuff. Yes, like that's key to a culture, but that's also a tricky one. It's a moving target. You're not going to motivate the entire group of people with one kind of incentive. So you need to keep it going. You know, for more senior people, maybe it's time off for monetary incentives or trips or escapes just so they can unplug. For junior people, it's doing activities together, but it's also like getting out early. You know, like that's the one that I've seen time and time again be the thing that like presses the button. It may not be money, it may just be like getting their time back. So all of those things, great. Sahir :                           30:31                Why not think about trends, technologies that are rocking the sales end street today. You have the rise of artificial intelligence, automation, the rise of generation Y as they're becoming a rising powerhouse as both buyers and sellers. There is a trend towards account based selling. I want to ask you what sales trends do you think we should watch out and 2019 as the new year is coming by. What do you think we should watch out for in this industry? Speaker 1:                    30:56                I think all of the things that you mentioned, ABM and AI are are important as a simple one that's possibly obvious and possibly not as just video. There are lots of applications that aren't expensive, where are free for salespeople to shake up the typical email, voicemail saying and use video and some of them give you teleprompters. I mean they get pretty involved, but we can't deny that videos now and becoming a big part of selling. You don't have to be a social seller to use video. It's huge. And Ai certainly too, right? Scaling, you know that coaching and inspection are helpful, but what I would say is with AI you always run the risk of creating too much rigor. We need to look at AI and how it flatters the architecture that we've built. There's still needs to be some kind of jazz band in there. Speaker 1:                    31:42                Without it, there isn't any creativity. I've seen both sides with new hires and experienced people and if you really locked down too hard what good looks like and a machine can certainly do that. You start limiting what people can become. So finding a strike, a balance between the organic and the architecture I think is huge. And then how we use AI in it. But you know the people that say AI is going to replace sales coaches or you can let the AI do the work. There has to be the organic human touch in there too. Ed Bilat :                       32:13                This, this is so true Bill. So look, don't they just tried to use AI for scheduling sales appointments and the natural salespeople just start using AI mean though to send those appointed one sentence. Right, right. Let's see what actually happened. There's would be angry customers to tell me, okay, if my business is so important to you, but why did you throw them into the robot? Could continue to ask me some questions at the end and trying to see where I'm available like just call me and you know, let's talk because that's the reason that you wanted to talk to me. Right? So to have that conversation, why do I have to deal with the machine, which doesn't understand my responses? So like what are you trying to sell me at this point? Right? Bill Ball:                        32:58                That's misplaced, right? So maybe right now, where are we are a hair appointment and not a sales appointment. Somebody wants a sales appointment with me. I'm thinking like I'm the scale, right? One Hand has to fill up with value and it has to outweigh the amount of time in the other hand that it's going to take on my calendar. And I think it's really difficult to convey that through Ai. I know prospecting is possibly the hardest and most painful part of selling, but that's absolutely the reason that we shouldn't leave it up to AI. Ed Bilat :                       33:27                Absolutely. Thank you. You've been terrific and so really appreciate it. I'm going to ask you one last question. What does the arc of storytelling mean to you? Bill Ball:                        33:36                I think it's all of the things that we hit on, right. But when ultimately audience can see themselves in what you're conveying, that's where the empathy, that's where the change, that's where the way forward happens. It's such a key to our communication and frankly, communication and lack of it is where we go wrong. And our roles were way too committed to outputs versus communication. And if we can use more communication and stories to tell that that's what captivates people, that's what gets people engaged and that's what creates business and moves us forward. Ed Bilat :                       34:12                Excellent. Thank you so much. So Bill, what's the best way to connect with you or follow you on the social media for our listeners? Bill Ball:                        34:18                I think, you know, hopefully, you been entertained if he looked at my Instagram. But what I would say is professionally I'm just good old. Linkedin is fine. I'm happy to connect and talk to anybody as long as it's not a sales development representative who asked for a meeting on the first guy Ed Bilat :                       34:32                with using Ai. Yes. Okay, perfect. So we'll make sure we'll include your information. So conduct, I'll Lucentis. So I'm thrilled to have you on the show, so thank you so much for the great ideas. I think it was a lot of golden nuggets here. So again, thank you for coming to the show. So happy to have you here, Bill Ball:                        34:51                and this was absolutely a delight and my pleasure and really appreciate the content, the direction of the conversation, and the questions. Hopefully, somebody at least amused by it. Sahir :                           35:01                Thank you so much. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. That does it for this episode of storytelling for sale. You'll find show notes and links on our web page, storytelling sales.com you can subscribe to the podcast on Itunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.  

On this week's podcast, Marcus sits down with Bill Sisson. Bill is the President and CEO of The Mobile Area Chamber of Commerce. Listen to this week's podcast to hear them talk about the State of Economy and the great vision and expansion Mobile is experiencing as we move into the new year! Bill: I'm Bill Sisson, president and CEO of the Mobile Area Chamber of Commerce. Marcus: Yay! I'm really excited to have you on the podcast again. Bill: It's good to be here. Marcus: Yeah. I think it's about probably  since you came on last and I was very excited about some of the things that I heard in your State of the City. No, it was State of the Economy. Bill: State of the Economy, yeah. Marcus: Sorry. Mayor does the State of City, right? Bill: That's right. We have the State of the City and the State of the County and we do that once a year. Marcus: Yeah. And so I was very excited about some of the things that you were talking about that and I also just wanted to give you kind of a platform to talk about some of the initiatives that I know the Chamber was going to be taking on in 2019. Bill: I appreciate that. Marcus: Yeah because I have ... and he didn't ask me to do this but we have benefited greatly from being members of the Chamber and I cannot tell you just how important an asset they are to our area with the economic development that they do and all the platforms they give to small business owners all the ... just the wonderful programs like Emerging Leaders and stuff like that that they do for the business owners here. So if you are not a member of the Chamber, then please consider. We're members. I'm member of the Board of Advisors. I'm now, I guess- Bill: Coming on the Board of Directors. Marcus: Yeah, I'm going to be on the Board of Directors- Bill: Yeah. We appreciate that. Marcus: Here soon. Bill: Yeah. Marcus: And I'm really excited about what I'm seeing you all do and so I wanted to get you back on and have that conversation. Bill: Well, I appreciate that plug. You didn't have to do that but you're an ideal member too because you're entrepreneurial. You've also put your membership to work which I always tell people it's like anything else. You get out of it what you put in it and you've always been very, very involved and we appreciate that and so we're excited about your business in it, the type of business that you have growing here in this community. Marcus: Yeah. Bill: It's really important to us. Marcus: I think you and I had a discussion and I want to say it was like four or five years ago and just about Bluefish and the type of business that it was and I ... it was ... it made me, honestly, the conversation that I had with you made me change the focus of my business because at the time, I think, it was a distributed company. We had employees in West Virginia and some in Missouri and a couple of other folks that we used either in Canada or out in California. Bill: Yeah, I do remember. Marcus: And I just ... I made the realization that if I wanted to be a part of this community that I needed to look at it also from a job generating standpoint and so we changed. We started ... I moved one guy down from West Virginia that's Tad and we started hiring here locally and it's benefit us. So I appreciate it. Bill: Yeah, I remember you doing that and I was proud that you did that. I think that we need more and more businesses thinking that way, particularly as we develop the talent base here, attracting people and growing it here, I think, and we have a lot to sell. I mean, the quality of life and the cost of doing business here, the cost of living here. I think all of that kind of sells itself if you can get people down. Marcus: And as things are improving, it's making it easier and easier to justify in making those changes. Bill: Right. Marcus: But why do you ... I mean, we usually have a list of questions and I'm not going to necessarily go by the script because I think there are more interesting things to talk about but why don't you give some of the highlights of what you discussed in the State of the Economy. Bill: State of the Economy. It's one of my favorite events. Started that when I came back to the Chamber over five years ago and I like it because it give the community a snapshot of what local business, what they're feeling, thinking, how their business has been the previous year, and what they're thinking is on the horizon and I thought this year in particular, the survey results were interesting because they showed that the local business community is much more bullish about the economy than they are about the national economy, which I thought was interesting. I think it was 73% of the respondents felt that the economy would be in 2019 than it was in 2018. Marcus: And folks, he doesn't have his notes in front of him so he's off by a percentage, give him some grace. Bill: Yeah. Yeah, give me ... yeah, cut me some slack and I think it was, I want to say it was 57% felt that nationally things would be better. Both of those are good statistics but I think that three out of four here locally feeling that this year is going to be even a better year I thought was pretty telling. Marcus: So I have always felt that what a city needs is a cheerleader and a group people that are providing and casting vision and leading, not necessarily doing. It's not an execution thing. Although, there are some things like ... so when you look the mayor and to yourself, it's not necessarily that you're responsible for doing all the things but what you do have to do is you have to provide a positive attitude and a vision for what the city could be and I think as I look to what has happened with the city, with the leadership, over the last say four years or so and with what you've brought, I just ... I see that. I see that there's a cohesive vision, that there's a plan for moving forward instead of just saying, “Oh, everything's going to be better!” And I think that's why business owners feel like it's going to get better. Bill: Well, we have many sectors that are growing. I think that's something that is very, very positive in this economy here locally. A lot of communities would be thrilled to have one or two. One that was growing and we have quite a number and I think that people also realize that we've only really begun to see some of the benefits of the larger scale projects like an AirBus. We haven't really seen the effects of that yet and so I think that's what's exciting is knowing that that's going to continue to grow and expand and what's going on with our port and the container terminal and the logistics sector. That's one we all need to watch carefully because we've ... Walmart and Amazon have happened. Well, we're working a number of projects in our portfolio related to distribution and you only have to look at cities like Savannah that had an expanded container terminal and now they have, I think, it's over 30 distribution centers that have followed that expansion. Marcus: Because they don't mind being in the same place. Bill: Right. Exactly. Marcus: Yeah. Bill: Exactly. Marcus: I mean, if somebody else like a Walmart or an Amazon says, “No, we think it's good enough.” Well, guess what? Bill: Yeah and it's- Marcus: It's going to answer a lot of questions for all the other guys. Bill: It's like the clustering effect. I mean, it's like car dealerships. They all sort of cluster together, right? And they see their synergies and I think distribution centers see that as well. Plus, the fact that we do have such excellent logistics. We're an easy sell. Talk about shouting it from the rooftops. That's what we ... that's really our job at the Chamber and Economic Development is to make sure that these companies understand what our logistical advantages are and our other business assets here. Marcus: So I thought it was very interesting about AirBus with the Bombardier deal and I don't know if you remember any of the numbers based off of that of like what they're planning on doing there and when. Bill: Well, they'll have 400 additional jobs associated with the 220 and essentially what we see with this is the facility that we have currently for the 320 essentially will get another one for the 220. So we've doubled it and I think that these jobs numbers are probably pretty conservative. Marcus: They're ... 'cause they're already talking about doubling for the 320. Bill: Right, right. Marcus: So, yeah. Bill: And I think that ... I mean, it makes sense to manage people's expectations and we have always tried to do that related to this project because I think a lot of people felt like it would be like the Mercedes project in Tuscaloosa and then suddenly all of these suppliers came but it's different with aircraft because these are large pieces of equipment and they're building up their rate, five currently, I believe, and they'll continue to expand to 12 eventually and then now, with the 220, you have 12 additional aircraft per month ultimately and so then you start really thinking about how that spawns additional suppliers and service providers even though we've gotten many. We have 20 ... I think it's 21's the last count, that have come. They're small at this point. They'll grow with the AirBus facility but when you get to those sort of numbers, that critical mass is really important and so I think that this just accelerates everything. Marcus: What else would you like ... I mean, what else can we bring out from the State of Economy that was a highlight for you? Bill: It's not a surprise but the number one business concern of the business community was basically talent development, workforce development, keeping ... well, attracting and retaining workers. I mean, this rose to the top this year. Last year, it was sales issues. I think the people were concerned about the economy, where it was headed, and they also mentioned the last year that they were concerned about overburdensome regulations. Well, all of that went away and this year at the top, you had these workforce development issues and we know that. We know that with the unemployment rate being as low as it is and communities really competing to attract talent, that has to be a big focus of ours. Marcus: Well, I mean, it will serve to drive up salaries. Bill: It certainly will. Marcus: But I don't know. Like we've- Bill: But I've never apologized for that. I really don't. I mean, it's one of those things that our existing members, they are obviously concerned about that but if they think about it, that's the only way to really raise your standard of living and everybody's going to be doing better off. Marcus: Well and it needs to go up honestly. Bill: And that's, again, the only way to really affect the economy is to get those higher salaries and that's been the Chamber's focus has been really directing our efforts to recruit higher salary positions. Now, in some cases, these are trades positions or advanced manufacturing positions, blue collar versus white collar. A lot of white collar follows blue collar but the blue collar that we have really seen the job growth in in this community and in very high paying positions and so that's helped to raise the average salary in this region. Marcus: Yeah, I use the example of ... was it Austal was looking for a welders at one point in time and they may not be offering those now but at one point, they were offering almost a six figure salary and we're talking to, well, we're working with Bishop State and they have a truck driving school where after eight weeks, they don't guarantee it but almost everybody that's graduating out of that program is making $40,000.00 and within a couple of years, you can do six figures making ... if you're got a clean driving record, stay drug free, and don't do anything stupid, you can make a six figure salary there too. And those are all going to feed off of this distribution center and taking all the parts up northern Alabama to the plants that are up there and all the other things that are going on with transportation in this area. So yeah. Bill: And the other thing that people need to remember is that a lot of these advanced manufacturing positions, they're very high tech in nature. These are not ... well, I think Hallie McNair at the State of the Economy event, he's the manager at AMNS facility but he said it great when he said, “You know, I don't need people now who can lift things. I need people that, for example, are retired pilot. I need people that have technical skills” and that's people sometimes forget is that with advanced manufacturing, there's a real high tech nature to that work. Marcus: Yeah. You have to have at least a certain understanding of that. So one of the other things that I thought was extremely interesting from that talk that you did was you highlighted the ... and you may have used a different term but the microbusinesses, was that the term that you used? Bill: Yes. Microbusinesses. That came out of the feasibility study for Innovation Portal. Marcus: Ridiculous number! Bill: Yeah! Yeah. 29,000. 29,000 micro businesses. Marcus: When I saw that slide, I just ... Bill: [crosstalk 00:13:10] And this was a very extensive feasibility study that we had done by a consultant who does this work across the country for people that are applying for federal economic development administration grants. You basically get to prove your feasibility of what you're asking for, for what you're saying you're going to do and we did that with Innovation Portal but even he was blown away by the number of micro businesses that we have here in this market. I think he told us that typically, you would see 13 or 14,000 in market [crosstalk 00:13:43] this size. Right. And we had 29,000. What that says to me is that we have a lot of pent up entrepreneurial spirit in this community and so I think a lot of the things that are going on now, certainly businesses like yours that are rising to the occasion. I think that this entrepreneurial ecosystem's changing and I think it's a good thing. Marcus: No, I mean, we're seeing it too. And so one of the main reasons we started this podcast which you may be aware of but listeners may not is we wanted to give a platform to those smaller businesses and help shed a light on the awesome things that business owners are doing in Mobile. We wanted to join the championing ... in championing ... I don't know if that's a real word but we wanted to be cheerleaders for Mobile and all the cool things that people are doing. And so what we found is that as we start to get to the end of our network, like we'll ask some people and then lo and behold, there's this whole other group of people that we didn't even know existed that are business owners and blah, blah, blah, and then we talk to them and it's like it just keeps going and going and going. We're not in any danger of running out of people to talk to or things to talk about. But we also notice it with any of the networking events that we have like there's a lot of people that come out and I think one of the things that I've and I think I've talked to Todd about this on his episode just recently was for over a decade, a buddy of mine who now works with start-ups in Huntsville. For over a decade, we had been talking about the freelancer or solopreneur economy and that people were slowly making decision to either leave their cubicle job and go and start their own or they were ... they liked to bake cakes and so they were going to start baking wedding cakes or they were going to do whatever like earlier today, we talked to some folks and they've made a whole business out of basically Mardi Gras. And so, I mean, there's just ... whatever it is, it doesn't matter what it is. If there's an interest, then you can make a business surrounding it and it's never been easier now to have the assets that you need whether it's the software or the process workflow software or the financial software or whatever. It's never been cheaper or easier to get that stuff and so it's made it really easy for people to start these businesses- Bill: And that can certainly explain part of the kind of numbers that we've seen in this area related to those microbusinesses. That could very well be part of it is that it's easier now to be able to do those things out of our garage, out of your back bedroom. Marcus: Yeah, it's exciting to think about what that's going to look like in a couple of years with 29,000, not all of them make it, right? Bill: Of course not. Of course not but even if a fraction of them- Marcus: 10% of them- Bill: Right. I mean, that's exciting! Marcus: 2900 businesses. I mean, that's a huge number of businesses more mature than what we currently have. I mean, that's a huge- Bill: Well, I, like you, have been pleasantly surprised with the number of people that have sort of come out of the woodwork in this entrepreneurial space because like I said, just a mere three years ago, we had that feasibility study done. There are a lot of people working on this at the University at Bishop State, other entities, city county, everyone really wanting to foster entrepreneurship but I've been surprised and I know this market pretty well but I've been surprised at the people I meet that have these side businesses or have the desire or have an idea. Marcus: Or are moving back. Bill: Or are moving back and that is another key component to that talent development that needs to occur. Marcus: Now, I rudely interrupted your presentation at the smaller State of the Economy that you did for the executive round table and said one of the concerns that I have is that we have a lot of high school students that are going away to college and then they never come back because they don't see Mobile as a place where they can work on the exciting job that pays them well, that has all of the ... it's like, when you think about silly things like, “I'm a young 24 year old. I've got a good job. I want to get paid well and then I want to be able to use that money to have fun, go shopping, do all these things” and it's like some of that's starting to happen. I love the changes the company that bought Bel-Air Mall is making. I've been spending more time there in the last two months. Bill: Yeah, they've made it quite- Marcus: Then I did in the previous two years and it's much nicer. So I mean, it's going to be interesting to see how the landscape changes and whether we'll be able to do something to bring those people back 'cause I mean, I'd love to see some of that energy come back too 'cause those are the people that go into Innovation Portal with their ideas and start businesses that really kind of blow up in this area. Bill: Well, I think your point's well-taken. I mean, I think I mentioned this at the round table but my son who is a senior in college was mentioning to me, he was home for Christmas, and he said, “Gosh. I can't believe how much this has changed since I've been gone.” And I think those of us that are living here, it sort of has slowly happened and so we don't really quite notice how profound some of these changes downtown and as you mentioned, Bel-Air, and some of the new retail that's arrived, the restaurant scene. So much of that has changed in the last ... just a few years and so it was good for me to hear that from my son because, again, he only comes in periodically and so for him to notice that, I think, it tells us something. Marcus: Yeah. So what's the Chamber working on in 2019? I know you guys are never sitting on your hands so what other initiatives do you have for 2019 that you want to talk about? Bill: Well, two which I'm very excited about. We're having extensive research done in two areas: foreign direct invest to develop our trade strategy in a more focused approach, meaning that we've been doing trade missions at our Chamber for years and years and we typically help business build business abroad or business to business contact on those trade missions and we do this in partnership with the state of Alabama Department of Commerce but what we haven't done is done an overlay in those countries that we're visiting on those missions to make sure that there's not a targeted approach to economic development related to that particular country. As you know, a lot of our focus is typically on the air show side or the trade show side, developing relationships with site selection firms, getting to know suppliers and so forth for the sectors that are growing here but there's a real opportunity for entrepreneurial, smaller businesses that are in some of these foreign countries to introduce them to this market and so this foreign direct investment strategy, this research that we've had done and then will develop a strategy will be help us be much more razor focused on that international economic development. I don't know if you're aware but we're always in the top five for our size city metropolitan areas for foreign direct investment. We do a really good job of attracting foreign direct investment and that has been, I think, the key to seeing this economy do as well as has done but we want to continue doing that and want to take advantage the foreign direct investment that we've seen over the last few years. Marcus: For those that may not be aware and I know this may put you on the spot but for those that may not be aware, how does that manifest itself in this area? What's an example of that? Bill: Well, an example ... well, I guess the best way to put it is that's new money that's coming into your economy. If a business is doing business with somebody locally, money is basically shifting around. When you get foreign direct investment such as an AirBus investment in this community or an Austal out of Australia investment in this community, that is new capital- Marcus: AMNS is from- Bill: AMNS is [inaudible 00:22:18] and the [inaudible 00:22:19] to Japanese, European conglomerate. But yeah, that's new capital that's coming to the market and that's the way that you can grow your economy. There was an interesting New York Times article recently on how important foreign direct investment is and they were comparing cities in the US and they were highlighting Nashville as having done a really good job of foreign direct investment and that has led to a lot of their economic prosperity and then they were comparing Nashville to cities that size that had not done it and you could clearly see that that was the better economic path. Marcus: I was talking to Jared Boyd this past weekend and he has ... he's moved back to Memphis but he is a Memphis native and I said, “What the deal with Memphis and Nashville?” And one of the things that I found were very interesting 'cause I didn't know this was that Memphis and Nashville ... Memphis was actually a bigger city that Nashville was- Bill: I think not far. Marcus: Not too long ago. Bill: Yeah, not that long ago. Yeah. Marcus: And it was this foreign national investment that kind of changed things and also I think the city got its act together as far as how it marketed itself, not just to foreign nationals but also just to the geographic area around it but you've got now where I mean, they're talking about 70,000 people per year moving to Nashville from outside of that area and- Bill: Yeah, it's an insane amount. Marcus: Yeah. I mean, it's just become a massive metropolitan area and dwarfs Memphis by far. Bill: Extraordinarily so. Marcus: But so yeah, I can see that being a huge boom for Mobile. Bill: And I think that Nashville, they do have a cool factor which I think we have as well. We just haven't marketed it as well as they have and so that's something that we really need to all collectively work on. I mean, not just the Chamber but individuals speaking to people that are living in these other places and tell them what's going here and the history here and the location and the architecture and- Marcus: The food. Bill: The food. Marcus: Yeah, the cultural side of things between Mardi Gras and being close to the water and all the things you can do there, you know? Bill: And you know, it's ... of course I drank the kool-aid years ago but it's so true. Marcus: For those that don't know, he's not from here. Bill: Right, exactly. But my younger son who's a freshmen in college, one of the things he mentioned was, “You know, Dad I never realized how unique Mobile is” because he's now in school with people that are from the Midwest and no offense to the Midwest but more typical American cities and Mobile's not a typical American city, not by any means and so I think there's a real marketability to that. I mean, people are looking for those kind of cool, unique locations. Marcus: But I love that you say that's not just some ... it's not ... the city's responsibility. It's not your responsibility. It's not ... Visit Mobile's responsibility. It's all of our responsibility. I mean, like we've even taken up and we're not being paid for this. The website that this podcast resides on has things to do. It has a business directory of all the businesses that are going on. It has an events calendar of all the things that are happening and so we have seen- Bill: Yes, you have. Marcus: We've seen that we have to kind of take some ownership of helping the city become its best self and so we're investing in that. But you know- Bill: Well, you've done a good job of that and you, too, are not from here and you've adopted it, right? And you know what it's like once you've adopted something and I think- Marcus: I want to see it succeed. Bill: Absolutely! And I think even people that are natives, they need to start telling the story because one thing people do here is travel a lot. I have noticed that and so when they're out and about, they should be talking about what's going on here economically, culturally, and I think that that's going to help us to be able to attract the talent that we need. Marcus: You had and you may not ... I'm going to say something but I'm not going to require that you know this fact. So at one point in time in the Business View magazine, you had all of the current larger projects of renovation that were happening inside of downtown. I added it up. It was $185,000,000.00. And I can't believe that all that money is coming from here as well. I mean, is that ... are those ... do you know offhand? Is that some level of foreign investment too or is that still stateside and US investors? Bill: A lot of those investors are from out town, not necessarily foreign. Not necessarily foreign but that's a good thing too. Marcus: Yeah, no. Not at all. Not at all. I wasn't saying it was a bad thing. So I just found it very interesting that there's such a huge amount of money that's flowing into downtown for renovation and I know at some point in time, there will be, I mean, I have to wonder $185,000,000.00 that's a lot of renovation happening downtown, are people really going to live downtown? But I also have to say, like I'm living in Broadstreet Lofts and I was using the ... we have a little grill out in the community area that we can use and one of the other couples that lives in the apartment there came out and she was an older woman, very nice, and she said that she and her husband were from Nashville and that they had retired and that they had looked at all the cities along the coast and they decided that they still wanted to live in a city and that Mobile the place for them. And I just can't help but wonder 'cause we went to Nashville a couple of years ago and on the way back, traffic started at Franklin and didn't stop until Montgomery. Bill: Yeah, yeah. Marcus: Northbound so everybody was coming back from spring break and so I just can't help but think that all those people that are spending all their spring breaks and all their summer vacations and stuff like that coming down here. At some point in time, they're going to want to retire and that's going to start happening very quickly and they're going to be looking for a city life. Bill: I think you're exactly right. I think that what Mobile offers, really unique to this central Gulf Coast region, is a urban core which you really don't find that along the Mississippi coast. Certainly Pensacola has it as well but- Marcus: [crosstalk 00:28:53] To a certain extent but our downtown's bigger than Pensacola. Bill: To a certain but not as urban feeling as our urban core because we've been- Marcus: I mean, certainly New Orleans does but a lot of people don't want to put up with all the mess of New Orleans. You don't have to say a word 'cause I'm not going to get you in trouble but I'll say- Bill: No, I never downplay competitor cities because, I mean, that's just what they are. They're competitor cities. They're great cities and I'll add this very Chamber-esque comment, we need a strong New Orleans [crosstalk 00:29:25] on the Gulf Coast. Marcus: I love going over there and having a good meal or doing ... seeing some shows or something like that. Bill: But it's important to have that strong city there. No question about it. Marcus: So what else? What else have we not talked about that you kind of want to let people know is going on?  Bill: Well, in the area of this talent development, we do, at the Chamber, take this very seriously. I think that that is going to be the key to capitalizing on the economic development that we've seen over the last few years and so the ... I mentioned the foreign direct investment study and then the other big research that we're having done right now is on our talent. We want to know where we are currently, what that workforce looks like with that labor shed, they call it, looks like here, where the gaps are, and then we will be developing a strategy in the first quarter of this year to go out through universities and through other networks to capture back some of that talent, that as you mentioned earlier, has settled in other cities such as Charlotte, Nashville, Atlanta, cities where maybe they've had some very formative career years but they're ready to come back and I think that- Marcus: Maybe they're tired of the traffic or the expense or- Bill: The expense or maybe they're about to have children and they want to be close to family. Marcus: And they don't want to raise them in [crosstalk 00:30:57] ... yeah. Bill: And so I think that if we can really target those people and tell them that the story has changed as we were talking about it earlier, I think that we can be quite successful in getting them to come back. Marcus: Yeah. It's really good. All right, so I'm going to go back to the script. Any books, podcast people, or organizations that have been helpful in ... helpful to you in the last, say, six months? Bill: That's a good question. I think the most interesting thing that I'm reading right now is “The Start-up Nation” and I'm just impressed with what they've been able to do in Israel. I'm actually fortunate to be on the Committee of 100 for the US Chamber and they are taking a group of us to Tel Aviv this year to see that first hand and subsidized by the Israeli government but I think that we here, in Mobile, can learn a lot from what they have done. It's a country of what, six million people? And they have per capita the most start-ups of any country and so there's something cultural going on there and I think we can learn from that and I look forward to it, to learning more about that but the book, of course, has helped me prepare for that. Marcus: Yeah. Well, that's very good. And what do you like to do to unwind? Bill: Well, besides read? Marcus: Yeah. Bill: I actually am I pianist and I- Marcus: I did not know that. Bill: Yes I am and I've been really bad about not playing the piano just in these ... the last years of my boys being at the house, just one thing after ... their sports and so I've been trying to get back on it and trying to get my fingers moving again. So but I have to say, though, of most of the things that I do to unwind, that one probably helps me unwind the most. Whenever I go back to it, I realize, “Gosh, I was missing that.” Marcus: Right. Yeah, that's something that really kind of soothes your soul. Bill: Yeah, yeah. Marcus: So that's awesome. Well, I want to thank you again for coming on the podcast. To wrap up, any final thoughts or comments you'd like to share? Bill: Well, just I would end with saying, I think 2019's going to be a great year. I think I'm like those three out of four surveyed people that said that they felt like 2019 was going to be a good a year. I think it is. I think that there a lot of reasons for that and I look forward to seeing it and look forward to working with business leaders like you. Marcus: Yeah. No, I appreciate it. So Bill, I appreciate your willingness to sit with me and share some of the things that are going on here in Mobile. It's been great talking with you. Bill: Thank you! I appreciate. Marcus: Yeah.

Listen to This EpisodeEpisode 234: Show NotesThe other day, Bill asked a question in our Facebook group…He asked, what’s the #1 thing stopping you from scaling your house flipping or wholesaling business?And a bunch of you responded, which was awesome!There was one reply that came up again and again…So Bill and I decided to make a quick video digging into this 1 thing and how you can start to break through this obstacle today…Have a great Thanksgiving if you're in the USA, and I'll catch you on the flip side!Links and ResourcesIf you haven't joined the Facebook group yet, go do it now (click here)! I started this group to be a place where serious house flippers and wholesalers can hang out and learn from each other and connect more with our coaches and this community… so if you're not in there, you're missing out! Jump in now!Like what you hear? Subscribe!If you've found any value or helpful information in the House Flipping HQ Podcast, we’d love to hear about it! Head over to iTunes to subscribe, and while you're at it, leave us a rating (5 stars would be great!) and a review so that others who are interested in starting a house flipping business can find us and get in on the good stuff! If you have any questions or comments about this show or its contents, please post them in the comments area below and I’ll be happy to answer them! The post HFHQ 234: 1 thing you can do TODAY to scale your house flipping business… appeared first on House Flipping HQ. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

So Bill and I recorded this right after Arcosanti and were unable to release due to audio issues. But now, for the first time ever, listen to our shitty opinions about a music festival. Enjoy.

Recapturist is Bill Rose. Bill Rose documents the aesthetics of vintage American design. The most visually pleasing parts of American design are fading away. The glorious neon signs that once lined our roadsides are nearly extinct. Mid-Century modern architecture is increasingly hard to find among non-residential structures. And products that used to come branded with machine-stamped chrome badges and hand-drawn typographical elements are now made overseas and marked with plastic decals. This tragic state of affairs is widening the gap between the golden age of design and the present day. So Bill has spent the last decade-plus on a mission to capture the finest examples of what’s left. He travels the back roads of America looking for neon signs, junkyards, yard sales, antique stores, estate sales–anywhere evidence of these endangered designs can still be found. The result is a graphic collection of design and typography from an era that predates the computers and specialized software used by modern-day designers. These images depict forms that were conceived, created, and produced manually on a drawing table using tools and techniques that are nearly obsolete today. These designers were true craftsmen. Bill's hope is that his site http://www.recapturist.com can serve as a reference guide–a resource that helps bridge the design and typographic styles of the past with those of today–and perhaps even be a source of inspiration for whatever comes next. https://twitter.com/recapturist // https://www.instagram.com/recapturist/ // https://www.facebook.com/recapturist // http://www.pinterest.com/recapturist

Learn about what is involved in true concurrent engineering and get practical tips for including stakeholders early on in the design process with Bill Brooks from Nordson Asymtek. When  project collaborators come together up front, then they move forward together. Hear how Bill spends the time up front to get everyone aligned during the PCB design process to ensure fabrication and assembly processes progress with minimal issues.   Show Highlights: Bill had an interesting childhood. His Dad was an inventor and worked on the Pioneer 10 spacecraft. He introduced Bill to the electronics industry. He also started a board shop in the garage and created his own hydro-squeegee, using peanut oil. Bill’s career started when he worked as an Electronics Technician for almost two years. When his employer started hiring designers to do PCB layout work, he grasped the opportunity. Back in the day, people used to sign their PCB artwork. There are a host of stakeholders involved, the designer is like the glue that holds everything together. Some of the stakeholders are: Fabrication, Assembly, Testing, Marketing, Managers and Engineers. When do you get the stakeholders involved in the PCB Design process? The IPC standard is to have a design review upfront, before design. The designer is the only one who can control moving the design through the process and make the board survive. We involve many stakeholders from the outset. Divisions like purchasing takes care of primary suppliers to ensure they can provide what’s required. We do system integration in-house. Partnering with other companies has become a big deal and it’s working very well. What does Concurrent Engineering mean? Considering all aspects, together, upfront, then moving forward together.  Spend the time upfront to avoid wasted time and effort later in the process. Educate people who have control, they take care of everyone and everything goes smoothly, works correctly, and is right first time. Bill’s Dad used to say ‘the hurrier I go, the behinder I get.’ You need a disciplined management team to do the work upfront, be quick but don’t hurry. A ‘quick and dirty prototype’ is a myth. Use software to load projects into a common depository - keep it current and work in cohesion with regular refreshing. Bill and their team use Playbook, which enables managers to have a full overview of every division’s progress and enable proper scheduling. Designers after hours: in 2008 Bill was introduced to sculpting. Started attending classes, commencing a 6-year love affair with sculpting. He now teaches on Saturdays. Rick Hartley encouraged Bill to do mentoring. Bill is now part of the International IPC Executive Board and has received an award for his contributions.   Links and Resources: Nordson Asymtek The Green Art House AltiumLive 2018: Annual PCB Design Summit   Hey everyone this is Judy Warner with Altium's OnTrack Podcast. Thanks again for joining. Today we have another great guest - do you ever get tired of me saying that? Another great guest because we just have them every time, and we'll be talking with Bill Brooks today from Nordson ASYMTEK, and before we get started, I just wanted to remind you to please follow me on LinkedIn. On Twitter I'm @AltiumJudy and Altium is on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter - and also if you'd rather watch this on video we also have this on Altium's YouTube channel under videos, and you'll see all of our podcasts recorded there as well. So today we have Bill Brooks, has been a great contributor to the industry, as well as being a very talented designer in his own right. So I thought you would enjoy learning about his long history in the craft of PCB design, so Bill welcome; thank you so much for joining us here. Bill comes from just up the freeway here from our office in La Jolla, so it's handy to get him over. So Bill won't you talk about your professional history? I think you, like many printed circuit board designers; you were kind of set up to be in this industry, but you found your own path. So, tell us a little bit about that? Yeah I guess when I was a kid I didn't know where I was gonna go... Yeah me neither. -my dad kind of introduced me to the electronics world, and right out of high school actually, I was still in high school - my dad was working in the aerospace industry and he decided to start his own printed circuit board shop. He looked around San Diego at the time, and there weren't a lot of shops to go get boards made and he said: well, I can do this. And so he looked up the information and we started making printed circuit boards in the garage. Good times, that was a long time ago where you could set up a board shop in your garage. Yeah it was - today it'd be completely illegal. Yeah right. [laughter] I think the neighbors complained, he created his own hydro-squeegee and he was using a fusing oil, which was I guess peanut oil, and he bought this big 50 gallon drum of peanut oil and he used a check valve, and he put this - - he used air pressure to push it through a check valve and to spray it so he could put the boards down to get them hot after they had been coated with solder and then squeegee ''em out as he pushed on the pedal on the floor. And it would just make this nice beautiful- It's a handheld hot air leveling machine! -Yeah it was very dangerous, in fact, I think he got burned a couple times. Oh I'm sure! -but the neighbors just loved it because they’d look down at the corner of the cul-de-sac and they’d see this giant plume of black smoke coming out the back of the house, going: what's he doing over there? But dad was kind of an inventor and he liked to invent things. So he didn't go out and he was kind of a 'shade tree mechanic' - he'd figure out how to get something done on a dime and do it himself. And I guess that same ingenuity was something I picked up, I figure out how to get things done. So how did you end up going down the design path, from building boards in the garage? Hmmm it was kind of convoluted. I thought I wanted to be an Electronics Tech and eventually Electronics Engineer, and I started down that path. I got a job with a company that was making television headend equipment; the transmitter part of it, there was channel 52 UHF subscription television, Oak Systems and I started working as Electronics Tech for them and I did a lot of work for them for, oh at least two years as a Tech, and they were hiring in printed circuit board designers to do the layout work. And I had already learned how to do layout work with my dad's shop when I was younger and I looked at that, and I said: welI can do that. How much do you make? And I think I was making like seven bucks an hour at the time, and they were making like 10 or 11. And I said: I could do that, and I told my bosses I want to do that - I can do that!  And they were: okay we'll get you in the other department and I started working in the drafting department. So I got a $3 an hour raise and I started doing layout work instead. And it kind of set me down that path. So that's how I got started anyway. So Bill, a lot of people that have been around a while, both you and I have been around a while. There's no college to learn what you've learned. So how did you pick up, we were discussing this earlier; you've done so many aspects - RF, some electronics and mechanical, how did you pick up all those skill sets, sort of along the way? Yeah that's kind of a long story really. My dad started me when he had his shop, and gave me a printed circuit board to do as a way to teach me how to do layout- Okay. -and we went to the TI Handbook and found a circuit for an audio amplifier - 10 watt audio amplifier and he said, why don't you try to build that? And so I made a schematic, I took the schematic from it, and I laid out the board and we manufactured the board and I bought the parts and I put them on the board, and I soldered them and turned it on and talked through a microphone - it worked and I went: yes that's hot! It's so funny. I remember in seventh or eighth grade, we had a science fair in junior high and everybody made their science project; we had a bunch of tables all set up and my dad said, well why don't you make something - - an electronic metronome? It has to do with music, and so I drew a schematic and I put the whole thing up there, and I built the metronome and I turned it on so it'd go 'tick-tock' 'tick-tock' you know, and I thought that was amazing. It was a really great and one of my friends said: Bill that was so cool, how you did that because I didn't have to do any of the work and I still got credit for it and I said well it was it was a challenge. So I took it on I put it up there but I didn't win a darn thing! The guys who made the volcano that spews out all the stuff - they got that prize. So people didn't appreciate what I was doing. I felt a little bit geeky and kind of out of the norm as I was growing up. But I was fascinated with electronics. I was almost intimidated by it. My dad was a very good R&D guy, and he worked in the aerospace industry and he actually worked on the Pioneer 10 spacecraft, it traveled all the way past Jupiter and it's outside our solar system headed on for Aldebaran now I think. That's crazy. So that's kind of a neat thing and I think on one of his print circuit boards, if you find down in the little corner you'll find his initials there- Out in the outer regions of space. -yeah and I talked with Dr. Walker Fillius, he was the principal on the project at UCSD and after my dad passed away and he sent me back an email and he said: you know someday these little green men out there they're gonna find that and wonder: what does that mean? Why did they put that there? And a lot of people did that back in those days, you used to be so proud of your artwork you'd want to sign it and they did. Right, that's funny. Yeah. So from I have to say, I think that was probably really invaluable experience for you, very young, to put together that design affected manufacturing, affected assembly, affected performance. Like at a very young age, you saw that whole overarching process - sort of on a small scale - but still; and not everybody gets that experience even today, few designers. Few designers have ever been in a shop and actually made a print circuit board. A lot of them are dealing with the drafting side of it; they don't see the whole process. Right and it makes such a difference to decisions you make as a designer. Absolutely. Right and so I can see how that sort of set you on a path to be a little bit more globally minded about the whole soup-to-nuts kind of - - from design to reliability or how something is actually functioning. It has a lot to do with curiosity, it's funny; I've been listening to a book about Leonardo da Vinci and one thing that was amazing about him is, he had this insatiable curiosity, to almost distraction, I mean he would look at things and go: why does it work that way? And he'd start, he'd set himself a task to figure it out - and he didn't have a college or someplace to go learn those things - he had to do it himself. I've done a lot of the same kind of things in my life. I get fascinated with something and I go: well, I can figure that out, I'll go figure it out - all it takes is being brave enough to try and not being afraid to fail. Failure is just an opportunity to learn more. So I think it was Edison once said , he did like hundreds of different ways to try to do a light bulb and he said, well now I know a hundred different ways not to make a light bulb, it's okay- I still finally need way to know how to do it right? -but those those skills and the curiosity drove me into expanding my knowledge base. Getting into printed circuit boards, I wanted to learn how to take the thing I knew how to make, and turn it into something that was a product. I wanted to find out how to make that product appealing to somebody so that it made them happy with the product and not unhappy with it. And that kind of dovetails with what we were talking about before. We have, as designers we're kind of the glue to the whole design process. We may not come up with the initial idea that needs to be created, but we take that idea and we turn it into reality and we not only have to turn it into reality, so that it's electrically functional, but it can be manufactured in a reasonable way that's not super expensive, that's reliable, that survives harsh environments or abuse. It has to be testable so you can provide for test points and things of that nature. There are a whole bunch of stakeholders involved. People who are - their job is keyed on being able to take what I create and turn it into a product that they can actually sell. The marketing people have to make sure that the product meets the customer’s needs. I have to be aware of that when I'm designing it so, I don't design in some function that makes it fail there. I have to be aware of those things. So the designer - they're kind of the key glue to the whole group. But I find that very refreshing and I think most professional designers, from our early days of making a simple 2 layer board say, it's so much more complex now. So we tend to like head down, into our specialty right and I think, as you have said some engineers/designers have never been inside of a board shop. Right it gives you myopia, you can only see just your part of the whole process. And I can understand that because, I don't say that from a critical perspective, it's a very complex process. We're time constrained, resource-constrained, so it's hard to put your head up for a moment so- You just named some of the stakeholders. -I would say fabrication for sure, assembly, testing... You mentioned a marketing department, probably managers too. Managers all have cost and time constraints, they have time to market that they have to be worried about. The engineers of course, typically are going to be concerned about, can they get the parts or are the parts available; are they gonna be end of life parts? Yeah that's a whole fun bag of fun there. The hardest part for some designers is, they'll get the board 90% done and then the engineer comes back and goes: I can't get that part anymore, I need to put a different part in and that's bigger than the one I gave you before. And so you got to go back and fix the circuit, so you can fit that bigger part in there and make it work. And it gets quite challenging. So when do you recommend to get those stakeholders on board and collaborating? That's a great question and funny - if you go through the IPC; I think it's 2221-standard - it's like the very first - almost first paragraph and the thing it says: make sure you have a design review up front first, before the designing begins. Why do they say that? Those people all are going to bring their expertise, and their wants and desires, and their concerns to that meeting. Well they're gonna be a part of that and give that information to the designer who really is the only person who has control over what it ends up being. The creator - they are the creator; they take all the information and they create something that can be built, tested, cost-effective, survive, functional, not have EMI problems, EMC problems... it has to pass safety agency requirements like TV and UL you know? Yeah. Or stand somebody handling it and giving it an ESD shock - thousands of volts - how's it going to survive that? You know, we do Hipot testing, there's a lot of work that goes into making a board that just is not - just connect the dots. So you're now working with Nordson ASYMTEK, which makes assembly equipment correct, or is there more than that? Their key thing, the company I work for they're making robotic equipment. The equipment allows manufacturers to do high-speed manufacturing very reliably and typically they're dispensing fluids. They have a few divisions that do board inspection. They have one that does plasma cleaning- Mm-hmm. -it's very common, I think it's MARCH - - I think is the name of it, something like that, but primarily we focus on fluid dispensing; got lots of patents on fluid dynamics, how to dispense a dot of material that's the exact amount of the material, in the right viscosity, of the right mix of materials, and at the right place , at the right time. Right. Very, very challenging stuff - we've come up with some really high tech equipment that are making our customers real happy. That's great, so when you do, on a practical, where the rubber meets the road stuff - when you embark on a new design - do you get the stakeholders together? I mean how do you do that? We get a large number of them involved. We have a purchasing department that cares about who our primary suppliers are. They review them; we go qualify them, make sure that they're going to be able to supply what we want, when we want it, at the price we want it. We use third-party vendors to make the boards, assemble the boards, test them. We put everything together in-house. They call us a system integrator kind of thing - and I guess that's one way to refer it. So the final assembly stuff all happens in the factory; and then we ship overseas and here in the United States and Europe. So you used a term which I've heard before and just tell me what it means to you, is the term 'concurrent engineering'? I was introduced to that a while back, and to me it was confusing at first. Of course I've been in the industry a long time and there used to be a model where engineering would be a little black box and inside, all the engineers do all their stuff in there, and it was black magic, and they got it all done and then they went; pop - and they threw it over the fence and said: okay, you guys figure out how to make it. And that's as far as they went. Engineers were done; okay, I'm working on my next thing have fun. And the manufacturing engineers get it and go: oh my god, how are we gonna build this thing? And they almost had to re-engineer it to make it producible. So that model was going along for quite a long time here in the United States, before they started analyzing what the Japanese were doing and looking at their manufacturing process. It was very organized, and they introduced just-in-time, which has affected the whole supplier chain. But partnering with other companies to be able to be successful has become a big deal and they can reduce the number of staff that they need to do what they need to do. They can have highly qualified people doing what they need to do - they don't need masses of people - and then they can subcontract things out get them delivered on time, put them together and get them out the door and they're very very good at it. Concurrent engineering means thinking about everything up front. Not just your part of putting it in a black box and playing around with it until you're happy and then flipping it out and saying: you guys figure out how to build it. You want to bring the people that are stakeholders in up front. And then together, you move as a group. And the people involved in the engineering part of it have to understand those people's jobs, because they're their customers. Right. They're the ones -  they're gonna use what they create. So we spend more time up front to make sure that they don't have to work harder, that they don't have to redo it, that we don't waste money and time out there with failures and have to come back and make changes and send it back out, saying: how about this one? No that's not good enough you've got to do it again. Oh how about that one? No that's not good either. So you educate the people that have control of it - they put the intelligence into it to take care of them and everything goes smoothly, and we make a lot more product, a lot less expensive, and that's right the first time. You and I were swapping some little statements right? So one I remember you saying - - I don't remember who you cited: the hurrier I go... That was my dad... -that was your dad. Yeah 'the hurrier I go, the behinder I get'. [laughter] Yeah and that's so true I mean it's funny if you have this: I'm the only important person in the world, and what I'm doing is the most important thing and I don't care what anybody else thinks or wants to do. You can create something, in fact, I've seen some amazing sculpture, of components that were soldered together and in the most amazing ways and it was an electrical circuit, it worked, functioned. Yeah - but if you touched it, it would fail, if you moved it, it would fail. It wasn't built - it was just to see what would happen to the electrons when they get moved around that way. So people - and there's a desire - typically management, has traditionally figured, well - if you whip the horses harder and make them go faster you'll get there sooner. I have seen that by the way being a board manufacturer and selling to and working with designers. The constraints are brutal sometimes... They can be. -and it's like, well if you want me to put out good work, you need to give me a little bit more margin right and so I think, to your point is, you had also said that it's really a myth, the idea of a quick and dirty prototype. Yeah it really is - it's kind of a myth - I've worked in environments where there was a philosophy that said: we can be faster if we just slap something together and we go build it and we bring it back and see what it does. I think the people that had that idea probably didn't have any simulation tools. They didn't have any way to predict how it was going to behave - so they would make one and go try it, and then they'd find out how it didn't work and make another adjustment. So I remember working on a board that had 17 or 18 different iterations of them trying different things... That's so expensive and such a time suck! -Very expensive and it takes a lot of patience - you just kind of have to work with them and keep going and keep going. But we win when you get a management group who - I happen to work for one - it's very, very smart people, they'd like to do it right the first time. So they spend the extra time upfront. They do the research, they analyze what's going on, and then they go build it. When they build it and bring it in we're like 98 percent there, most of the time. Very few times maybe we get one or two little blue wires and we're good to go and take a few changes boom -  you're out the door. And that's a good thing and CAD tools help us do that too, by the way. Yeah well, and that's a really insightful management team I think, to know that if you take the disciplined time to do it up front, it really saves you so much on the back end in regards to time, money, and resources. I always like John Wooden's quote; he used to say: be quick but don't hurry, it's the same thing - like be nimble and quick - we don't want you dragging your feet but don't be hasty. I think part of it is just having a good work ethic, the self-discipline to say: you know what, I'm here, I'm gonna focus on this, I'm gonna get it done, and I'm not gonna let Joe come over and talk to me over a half hour about the thing he was doing up on the mountains last weekend, or stop and shoot with people at the water cooler or whatever. I'm gonna stay focused on it and when I'm not here then I'm doing other things, but when I'm here I'm focused. And I think that the managers; they should analyze the people and look and see what kind of people they have, and try to work with them to get them to have that work ethic. We've got lots of distractions in our world, plenty of them, things that can take us all over the place, so it's just a personal discipline I think. So we talked about, in those cases - I'm thinking about the people that are designers that are listening to us that may not have such an insightful management team as the one you work with and I'm sure you've worked for other less insightful management teams. How do you recommend that you tactfully, and professionally, push back to say, I need five more minutes to get this right  - how do you do that? Well to frame it as pushback, is probably not politically nice but it's a communication. I think one of the things that you don't do, is you don't go off into a dark room somewhere and then pop out with a design later on and they're going: what's happening what's, happening, what's happening. So you have to have a lot of open lines of communication with your team. We use SVN as a way to load our projects into a common repository and then the other engineers that are working, can download that and refresh it, make it current so the master is in the SVN file. So I'm working on basically a copy that I refresh every time I do some work. And I do that regularly, I don't wait very long and I'm refreshing it - I'd do it many times an hour sometimes. And sometimes maybe I go for a couple hours and then we'll refresh it, but it's mostly based on how much change I have made to it. The idea is to keep it current and keep the lines of communication with the other people concurrent so that they're aware of what's going on if they're busy working on the schematic while I'm working on the board we can do that in parallel, and I can do my parts get them done and then they can say, oh I found out I have to change this part, or I need this other circuit in there and I've just uploaded it - you can pull it in and and make the changes. And we do that very often. Which is really great and I know here at Altium, R&D is working very hard to make sure that people can work concurrently and building those subversion networks and, even going beyond that, as we delve into Nexus and other products is to enable that, so you guys are seeing each other work in real time. Often times this is kind of a neat thing about that tool. We typically, the group I'm in is the new product development group, so we take the 'pie in the sky guys' stuff and we turn it into a product. Then we have Reliability Engineers who have to design a testbed to test the product. So oftentimes when the schematic gets to 90% they've got a copy of it and they're looking at it while we're designing it... And there's the concurrent engineering isn't there! -Exactly. It really is a tool that enables that concurrent chain. It enables it - so we're able to do that and then the guys in production want to know what's going on with it, so they can pull down a copy and look at it, and then the next time we have a review meeting they'll bring their thoughts to the meeting and they can say: we like what you did over here, but we'd like to change this because it helps us be more efficient, and we can run that back there because we need to do that; we listen to them... Which is so great. -having that dynamic - real-time communication - it's really huge in being successful the first time. Yeah that's great, it's great to hear. So but... tact is used to push back. -tact yes. I used to joke with my boss; did you ever see the movie The Money Pit? Yes. And the: we're gonna fix the house and the farmer shows up and says, how long is it gonna take? Two weeks, two weeks. We used to do that. Looks like, wow this will take two weeks. Most people can accept two weeks, but we've got a new tool now at work; Playbook - and it allows them to get all the stakeholders involved in helping us schedule the project. So people who say I'm gonna have my test part of it ready at this time, and I'm gonna have the board ready at this time, and I'm gonna have my schematic ready at this time. The managers can see the whole thing without having a good run around and bug everybody - it's all right there. If there's a problem with a schedule - update it so we know what's going on. Tell us, and they get it; they see the impacts, they see when things are going to happen and they can strategize and make plans on how they're gonna pull something in or adjust something to be successful. That's great to create the level of transparency right? Yeah so pushback is really more... Well you know, that makes it sound like the manager's a bad guy. They've got a job to do and they've got to get a product to market in a timely way, at the right cost, so I'm just saying is sometimes to your earlier comment like the whips to the backs - at times it feels like that and sometimes you have to stop and go: okay... How can I communicate better? Yes, how can I communicate this in a way that makes me me your ally here? Exactly. I want to help you win, we're on the same team by the way, and me getting this done right the first time... You can help me be successful in doing it the first time, and you, and you, because I want to get all the things that you need into the design. That way you're happy with it and you can make it and you're not gonna go; damn that Bill Brooks - why did he do this? Oh gosh we love the finger pointing don't we? Yeah I've lived through a lot of that. Well Bill, this has been really good and really practical, I think where the rubber meets the road. And this part of the podcast, I sometimes like to call Designers After Hours. I want to particularly focus on what you do after hours because you are a very creative kind of - use both sides of your brain - but you have a very strong right brain. So can you tell us a little bit about what you do after hours when you're not designing boards? Gosh - let's see; was it 2008? I went through a divorce and I was trying to find something to do with my spare time and I got introduced by another engineer at Datron World Communications where I used to work; and he was taking classes in sculpting and he showed me a picture of a sculpture that he was creating; this head of his wife, and I had met his wife - she was wheelchair bound and it was so neat to see the love, you know. He is caring for her and she needs him to push her around and whatever. But he was making a sculpture of her and I thought that was really cool and the likeness was amazing! I thought, you really did a good job, I was really impressed with it. How in the world did you learn how to do that? Because I'm taking classes in Carlsbad. Bullshit - what? Nobody teaches that right, I don't see classes for sculpture anywhere. Where do you find that? And he says, no it's real, you should come check it out. So I made a point to go down and meet the teacher and the teacher introduced me to it and I thought, this looks like too much fun I’ve got try it. And that started about a six-year love affair with sculpting. And now I'm currently teaching it so - there's a place called The Green Art House in Fallbrook and every Saturday I've got a class there and I teach sculpting and it's fun. And we will share this link by the way, because your mind will be blown. He doesn't just do a little hobby sculpting - these are amazing sculptures he makes! And oh my goodness, and then I start prodding him about painting... Oh yeah I would love to take a painting class. Bill says, oh yeah I do that too. About two years ago - maybe almost three - I was at a gallery where I had my bronze sculptures that I had made from the sculpting studio and I was trying to see how they would be accepted in the public and so forth. So I had them in a gallery and I met a guy there, Richard Struggles who's a teacher, and he teaches how to paint and so I got brave one day and I thought: I could do this. So I went down to Michael's and I went through the paint department found the primary colors and some paintbrushes and a canvas and I said I could do this and I just bought it and took it home and I thought I'll find a picture I like and I'm gonna try it. Well about three hours later I said, you know it's not bad - it doesn't look too bad, I bet if somebody taught me I could do better. So I asked him, I says I see you teaching people, can I come? He said sure come on down. So that started me learning how to paint and I've done about eight or nine paintings. One of them's a triptych; it's some cheetahs it's hanging in my mother's home, behind her couch and it's real pretty and a lot of horses. I know I love horses I owned a horse and so I love your sculptures and your paintings of horses. I used to have horses too - so I know that bond and the connection with the animal - it's amazing. So anyways, just for giggles we will share Bill's amazing artwork there because he does have a good after-hours gift there. Will you please share with me any -  I know you've shared with me some links and things we'll make sure we put those up for our listeners that could glean more information from Bill. Bill's also taught PCB at our local college here, and he has mentored many people as well as being mentored throughout his career. I can blame that on Rick Hartley. Rick Hartley who we just had on the podcast today. Yes he was, in fact, he cornered me. We were doing an interview right after the Top Gun at PCB West, and he said: Bill, you've got a lot of experience. Have you ever thought of mentoring? And I said, no I never thought about it, to me making boards was just a way to get a paycheck. Get paid, go home, buy food take care of family do all that stuff. And that seed it planted, made me seek out the IPC Designers Council and I joined the local group in San Diego, eventually became part of the board, and then I joined the International Group and actually became part of the Executive Committee and also the Education Committee. And I think I've got an Emeritus Status now with them. I mean I've been with them a long time and I've contributed as much as I could. In fact they gave me an award once for contributing to the industry so it's good fun. Yeah we'll provide all the links we can. We thank you again for joining us Bill. Thanks for joining us today in office and again this has been Judy Warner with Altium's OnTrack Podcast and Bill Brooks with Nordson ASYMTEK. Thanks for listening, we'll see you next time. Until then, always stay on track.

Bil Herd shares stories and design wisdom from years of experience as a hardware engineer, most famously at Commodore. Starting out self-taught, Bil found his way to working around brilliance and some of it rubbed off a little. Learn about his interesting journey from TV repair to Commodore, Hackaday and beyond. Today, Bil is self-employed and focused on networks, high-level architecture consulting and hardware projects.     Show Highlights: I never forgot how to do hardware design. It’s fun to be able to do that. I’m working on an Altium project right now. You get to be imaginative for a couple days, and then you spend the next couple months paying for it looking at every single line item, every footprint and trying to catch where your brain was wrong. Commodore Hardware lab, splitting bus for video and hired to lead the team shortly after. Going after a swag bag offered by Adafruit from an MIT Open hardware conference resulted in a video series with Hackaday. Almost all the errors I’ve made in CAD systems were related to parts I’ve made. For parts and footprints - you need to have someone check your work. To start a new CAD system - make a trash board, force yourself through. Process to start learning a new CAD system: Open CAD > Get Overwhelmed > DRINK Making a board on a new CAD tool. First I make a trash board knowing I won’t use it. Then make a real board, using all the rules. Links and Resources: Bil Herd Wikipedia Hackaday Bil Herd’s Hackaday Videos   See all show notes and video here.    Hey everyone, this is Judy Warner with Altium's OnTrack Podcast. Welcome back. Our audience continues to grow and we thank you for joining us again, and I want to give a shout out to Steven Newberry from LGS innovations who took away always marking his diodes with a K, and so many of you have chimed in and help driving actually who we have on the show and the topics we discuss. So thanks so much for joining. If you would please connect with me on LinkedIn or @AltiumJudy on Twitter and Altium is also on LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter, and remember we're always on YouTube as well as on your favorite podcast apps. So thanks again for joining and hold onto your hats because we're gonna have a little bit of a history lesson tied in with today's best practices. So today our guest is Bill Herd, who is actually a figure of history and he has a Wikipedia page that you will have to take a look at. So for those of you that are probably, I don't know 40s and above, might remember the Commodore personal computer. It was one of the first, I'll let Bill fill you in all the details, but I remember vividly when I was in my early 20s, my dad coming home with a Commodore 64 and it was all the rage and he thought the world is forever changed and I'll never ever use all the 64k that I possibly have. So Bill, welcome and we're so glad to have you and can't wait. We're gonna tell some stories, you're gonna give us some design wisdom, so thanks so much for joining us. My pleasure. Actually I do describe myself as a recovering Commodore Engineer the active recovery never stops you've just gotta keep trying to get better. Well, I'm sorry but based on the background behind you I'm not sure about your recovery. Okay - I've relapsed a little [laughter] So, briefly tell us what you're - are you working now as a Consultant, you know like your own entity I forgot to clarify that with you? Yeah actually I'm self-employed so to speak, I owned an ISP for about 15 years and had 16 people and we did all that and then it ran its course as ISPs do, and so I do a lot of networking and high-level architecture consultation, but I never forgot how to do hardware design. So actually you caught me in the middle of doing an Altium project right now, where we're going to a limited quantity but I just went through all the steps - all the dirty little details getting a PC board out, so it was kind of fun to still be able to do that. I love the way you put it, 'the dirty little details' there's a lot of those right? You get to be imaginative for a couple days and then you spend the next couple months paying for it by looking at each and every line item and every footprint and trying to catch where your brain was wrong you know, way back in the beginning. Yeah well, so I also noticed you have - as I've gotten to get acquainted with you a little bit - back in the days of Commodore and the early days actually of the personal computer business the words nerds and hackers weren't really around but seeing you sit there in a Hackaday shirt with that lab behind you, I would say you are the quintessential original geek or nerd what do you have to say about that? Well, one - we did call it home computers, back then the PC hadn't been invented yet, and I also mention I've never been to school for any of this. I was a - basically a high school dropout - and ended up in the service, and went back and almost got my degree. I own like a library book for the money $3.42; for a library book, in English class where me and the teacher just couldn't make it work. So about three years later they sent home my diploma with my sister just going: here you'll need this someday. I used to say I was self-taught but what really happened, self-taught got me into a couple good places and then the education really started; working around really smart, really brilliant people, that's where I got the education that made it so I could do a product from beginning to end. So I was fixing TVs, got my TV Repairman License at the age of 17, in Indiana. You know and sometimes they'd answer the door and didn't want to let me in, because I got long hair and I'm carrying tube caddies and they're like: who are you? I'm like, van out front, TV repair, and people fed me cookies when they saw me fix their TV sets. Right well we will share Bill's Wikipedia page and there are some awesome pictures of this long haired hippie, with this cut off denims... Hey don't tease me about the shorts, it was 1980. Hey I'm sorry, but I wore shorts just like that so yeah, so we will share that because there's a lot of history and fun and great pictures that I think you'll enjoy hearing. So tell us a little bit about how you got into the whole Commodore thing and then we're gonna dig in and give our listeners some really practical advice on those nitty gritty details you talked about, and then we'll wrap up with some more fun stories. So just briefly give us an overview of Commodore and Hackaday? Okay if I back up just a little bit - I started at a digital scale company in Pennsylvania making instrumentation, so there I learned to do very accurate stuff with very good grounding. I understood analog and RF spectrum and all that, and it was all hand taped right. Well a guy named Terry Fisher who I just got through working with again, so after 35 years, we're still doing it and he was on Altium this time. So when I got to Commodore I had the background for how to make something expensive work. And then you just take that and you just shake it and it comes out of your head cuz now you've got to make it cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap. Yeah. And people are mad at me these days because they say: oh I have a 30 year old Commodore and it just failed! I'm like: it was designed to last five years. You should have put a switching supply... what? To put a dime more into it I'd have been fired if I did! So I got my job almost by accident at Commodore. I mean, there's a whole story here and I'm going to - let's just say I blew the interview like three times and still got hired. You know what, not even taking in my resume you know? But so I got there, and they didn't know what to do with me, and I read in a book that I was actually hired as a Technician. They just knew they could use people like me and then they sat me down, the guy was named Benny Prudent, and he said: well here, study all these software manuals. So now I was gonna be right for a programmer - I could do 6502 programming. But for a disk drive - I'm like: that sounds like the most boring thing in the world, but sure. And then I walked into the hardware lab and I saw what they were doing - they were splitting the BUS for the video - which back then I was doing it at home - and that's why I said: I just built something at home where I actually don't wait till the vertical retrace time to ramp and two weeks later I was in charge of the project. The guy was leaving, they didn't have anybody else, so now I'm a Project Leader at Commodore within a couple weeks. Oh my gosh, it was like the Wild West was it not? Oh absolutely and I loved it and I brought a certain 'animal house'  to that, because we had lost a lot of talent. I mean there was people like Chuck Peddle who designed the 6502, he's gone, but his cigar's burning in the ashtray. The chair's still warm right. So you knew that these people had been there, but they're gone - and there's these kind of older, stogier guys and me. And pretty soon it became an environment where shoes became optional, so we definitely made it into what we wanted to and you have to do that when you work 20 hour days. That's crazy so you're sleeping in the office or not sleeping? My record was 11 days without leaving. I had an air mattress, I would actually hot bunk with the technician so I would get something designed like 2:00 in the morning, check the air mattress out and they would build it for me and I'd go catch an hour to sleep and then they'd come back and kick the air mattress and say: it's built, and   just taking showers out of the sink - things like that. Well we'll talk more about some of your fun Commodore stories because I know we'll really want to dig into those a little bit more. But tell us also about your involvement with Hackaday? Yeah it's actually interesting, that I used to watch Adafruit's Little Saturday Night Show right and they would do this thing where they'd give something away and usually it was a product and I didn't go for that as much because I could just - their products are so cheap I could just buy one. But one time they had been to the Open Hardware Venue - a conference - and it was actually at MIT I think - and they asked a question and I went right to a web page, found the answer because they were giving away the swag bag, so I said, that I'll go for! So in the swag bag was some cool things but one of them was a - it was like an Octopart - only it was somebody else's version of it. Well they're owned by the people that owned Pacada. So I start talking with them, I ended up a Beta Tester, and the guy realized I just never shut up, that I'm always telling stories right? And so pretty soon he puts me in touch with Mike the head editor at Hackaday, and I'm doing the same to him only in emails, and finally he's like: all right that's it, write stuff or shut up, and so we came up with the video format because it just - it works for me - it works for my personality and I am a high school dropout which means my English ain't so good anyway, so the video works better for me. Yeah well we will also share those for listeners here - I've seen a few of them and he is perfectly suited for that. So I'll share that as well for you wannabe hackers. So let's dig into some immediate content that I hope will help engineers and PCB designers that are listening to us. You have told me -  how many EDA tools have you used over a year period? Yeah I made it all up, hardly any at all [laughter]. No it had to be like seven, eight, or nine, depending on how you count them and to what degree. But going back to the 1980s when a workstation cost fifty thousand or a hundred thousand dollars and you couldn't get them as a home user or even as a small business and so, we started it. We started with hand tape and the cool thing with that is, if you can do good hand tape, you can use a tool like a CAD and do more. But you still have to be good to begin with right? You have to understand the principles and nowadays it's more common for engineers to do their own PCB layout but I'm still of that school that: do what you do really well, and use somebody when possible that does what he does as good as you, that's why I use a guy like I said, Terry Fisher. He's as good and he knows when to ask me questions and I know when to shut up right so we have a good relationship for that kind of thing. And we started on Mentors, which actually we designed chips with, but he started on a system called a side card, and it was a card that plugged into the backs. Well when he'd start moving parts on the PC board everybody's computer slowed down right. These chip designers and stuff because it's on the VMBus, it's taking the cycles directly, so they give Terry his so - he actually he goes by Fish. They gave Fish his own VAX so now he's got a three hundred and fifty thousand dollar CAD system to lay out pc boards and so that's the 1980s, and in the Mentor, we - I hadn't really even seen a real mouse like we use until Sun's came out. It had a scratch pad so I actually grew my fingernail into a point so that I had a built-in stylus on my index finger - so yeah  just genetically modified kind of you know... [laughter]. That's funny - so with all of those changing of tools which most people that I know, that are designers, once they get proficient on a tool they'd rather die than change tools because it can be such a painful process. So tell us about changing tools. If you have to do it, what is the least painful path? Well management will always want you to do that right in the middle of a project right and that's - it's pretty key to not try and - we actually moved our hardware labs right in the middle of a project one time too. Just kind of in the same... But if you're going to change programs, realize that they're just tools, and after you've changed a couple times you start to go: okay I know how this play goes and and you do a couple of the same things and you sometimes learn and really appreciate your old tool and sometimes you learn that hey, the new tool's better. But they're no two the same, especially in CAD where there's so many complex things. So I think people picking up tools - I saw it a lot with EAGLE - what they did, and they did an amazing thing for the maker industry and the home users - even though I hate the program. if you're a professional, you just go: what, I have to drag the trace off the screen to hit the menu? this is like somebody put a GUI on a command line program. Well guess what? EAGLE's were GUI on the command line program back in the old days. So you know the false attractiveness of something like EAGLE was, it did have huge libraries right, and especially for boards because I mean these, Arduino boards - I can't deal with the mechanics of them, they're not on the center's, I'm used to all that - but what you really have to come down to when you do a CAD system is, realize you've got to make your own parts at one time or another, so you might as well get proficient at it. And if you're using libraries you might just be using somebody else's problems. So even if you do use somebody else's library - it's like you've gotta still vet the part. Right, so just realize that you're going to have to make your own parts. And then there's things like BSDL importing and stuff like, if you're doing a 250 pin FPGA, you don't want to hand-do that either, so there are tools to help you avoid the mistakes. But almost all the errors I've ever made in CAD systems are related to the parts I've made where - I actually have data books here not data sheets - a guy said: yeah you use the word book don't you? And while you're looking at the book, making the part, I've done simple things that I'll never catch myself - by having like D7 to D0, instead of D0 to D7. When I see what I think I want to see, and that's it, the mistake is in there until somebody else catches it. So we used to always have somebody else check our parts you know, in footprints or the same way I still think. So that's the first thing, is realize you’ve got to make your parts and then I recommend you just sit down and trash a board - try not to ruin your library in the process - because you could screw up libraries right. But then throw that board away and start again. This time trying to obey every rule you know how, and actually even if you don't produce the board actually obey all the rules, look up every command you don't know that you actually need, and that's kind of how I started a new CAD system. So for our audience, Bill sent me a few notes for the point of our conversation here, here is a note that he wrote: Starting a new CAD, do a couple of projects early on - sort of what he's talking about right now - his first line is, 'open CAD - get overwhelmed - drink' [laughter]. Yes, it can be overwhelming! It's like my drill sergeant said when I went through basics: 'we know it hurts gentlemen, you don't have to tell us' and we're like, oh I'll keep my pain to myself. It's the same thing: I'm supposed to be overwhelmed, okay let's you know. So you open it again, and you start looking for what you know. So there are some things you need to learn the quirks of upfront. Like how do you do a BUS? Everybody does it slightly different, that nomenclature, whether it's curly braces, brackets, whatever. And an 8 10 dot dot 8 zero -   it might be low to high, it might be either way, but you got to learn those things. And interconnects, how to make sure that a part's really hooked up. One CAD system I was on, was called Ulti Board by National Instruments, and the DRC wasn't catching the fact that parts looked like they were hooked up, and they weren't. Well, how do you catch that? Well yeah, how do you catch that? Yeah so you've got to - you go around jiggling your parts and it's stupid you know, so do a good DRC and you know, Ben, when he looked over my shoulder to check my router - from Hackaday, Ben Jordan. He gave me an - actually a compliment that I took, which was: oh it's nice to see you have all your DRC errors fixed. Well I'm old enough, I don't remember fixing them, but I'm old enough that I know I would have fixed them. Cause that's it, that's your last chance to catch that you have a net floating, even though you don't know it. Whether it's a misspelling, even capitalization change, something like that. So yeah, you got to learn all those dirty deeds and details. I was just talking to John Watson on this podcast about a week ago, we talked a lot about libraries and the same subject. It's like a theme that most headaches seem like they begin and end with the parts libraries   and even having a data sheet that's correct or hasn't changed in the last five minutes. How do you address that? I still have data books [laughter] - no, it's still like going over it, and over it, a couple of times and having somebody else look as well. I'll still take a highlighter to a schematic sometimes just if I feel I'm getting confused, out comes the highlighter to help me get more confused. [laughter] -at the end hopefully I get it. That's funny! Okay (I keep bumping things sorry about that) so okay. Let's talk about hidden nets... Okay go! I hate them [laughter] hidden nets are where somebody thought let's show up DIP package or something and we know we are hooking it up to +5 and grounds so there's no point in cluttering the schematic with it. Well my attitude is how do you know it hooked up to +5 and ground? Nowadays it's 9 +5 and ground is +3.3, 1.2, 1.0 - - so yeah whoever came up with that, they need to have something I don't want to say something bad happen... [laughter] They need to miss a CES deadline or something themself. So it's the invitation for failure is what you're saying? Yeah you can't check it, you make assumptions and that's where problems start so yeah. Would you say that making assumptions is one of those easy pitfalls for designers to fall into? Yeah, thinking SOIC is a size. It's not you know, there could be white body, skinny bodies, and it's like: oh but the picture looks like -  no. You better learn to have - one thing is you have to learn with new CAD packages, is how to measure things. And you need to do that, and then look to see oh it's .43 inches or  ... and I - one time I almost missed the fact that the the lead pitch was 0.5 instead of 0.75. That wouldn't have fit! That would have meant instant failure. You made a comment about assembly drawings being readable what did you mean by that? You know as parts got smaller the silkscreen no longer - it's not as important because of assembly techniques but if you still want to measure - you can't get that little silkscreen anywhere near the part sometimes, so you end up with an assembly drawing where you had to like put all these silk screens where you now want them inside the outlines and all that so it's like you can't use the silkscreen for an assembly drawing like the old days. You have to do a whole new one if you want to be able to find the part. But now these days what I do - but I'm working on a really dense... or troubleshooting, I actually keep the CAD open and I do the -   jump to component - and find it that way it really is faster to use technology sometimes... [laughter] sometimes. Sometimes, at least I don't hand etch my boards anymore. Yeah. Remember that, the seventies? I always say, because I was in the bare board industry for years, sales and marketing-wise and we would take people, walk through and do surveys, plus I actually worked on a shop floor for a short period of time like, I'm gonna die of heavy metal exposure man, the chemicals we had in there. I remember walking into a planing room at the first board shop I worked and my skin just burning, yes burning, just poor ventilation and there was sulphuric acid in there. I'm told you can't have plating or PC board manufacture in New Jersey, that they've just kind of made it so you can't do that. Well there's that - there's a little bit of toxicity going on in the chemicals. Right, and at Commodore we made the ultimate printed wiring board printed circuit board right which is a chip - it's just really, really small, and we polluted the groundwater and you can look this up, but we had to buy dedicated lines for like 11 neighbors, and then we had those golf course sprinklers in the back aerating the ground water. Well my first day there I mean they're just literally spraying it in the air hoping the VOCs evaporate right. Oh my gosh! I parked too close my first day there and I come out and my car's covered with this sticky stuff right and not only that, I had parked under a tree so now the leaves are stuck to my windshield with this and to try and peel them off - they just break - and they're like: oh yeah dude, don't park there man, that's in the water. Like I said, it was the Wild West days I mean. Still a Superfund site I'm told. I bet, like it's frightening - it's frightening and I'm glad we've gotten our act together a little bit environmentally oh my gosh because literally we could all die from those toxic... Yeah I remember the day my dad brought home mercury to play with you know. I remember my neighbor was an engineer - he brought home mercury to play with and we'd watch you know, roll it around on our hand or whatever, crazy! Forget about playing with it - you know putting it in your teeth we would like, oh here, pour it in my hand, let's roll it around, isn't that cool? Yeah and you put it back in the jar and it's never quite as full as you started right because you're leaving a certain amount on the floor... Good memories but we might die young, just saying... [laughter] So when you start a new CAD program, do you just jump in and start designing? How do you take that on if you're gonna take on a new CAD, what's the way you approach it? Well  as I said, I kind of I go in knowing I'm going to do a trash board, it's all about just hooking some stuff up knowing that you're making mistakes and then I try and do something more real and try and really obey the rules and that's where it starts - that's how you're learning from page to page cuz every CAD system's slightly different, but it's kind of like how you think. You drop a part, you try and put a wire on it and the kind of mistakes you'll make is not having a clear way knowing how you want to do all the resistor values in the world right. Do you make a part for each resistor value, or do you use a generic part and assign the values? And those are things you just have to figure out yourself on each CAD system I think. So I mean, I honestly don't know how it's done. I have lots of compassion for my engineering friends who are also laying out boards who really got no serious, formal training in PCB design, but alas they are laying out boards and then they get thrown a new tool like... So do you just hop on it and jump in and swim? Remember, it's a tool too and they have some really great tools like things that'll help you plot RF noise on the ground plane or thermal or something but you know, at the end of the day that's not necessarily real life. It's a tool you know, so it's an opinion, and it might be a faster, better, more colorful opinion than we used to get with an old thermal probe. But you just got to kind of try it and if you work around people who can look over your shoulder they'll save you a lot of time - especially hot keys and stuff like that. And that's probably one of my pet peeves is I don't like having to rely on hot keys and that was even before I lost a finger, so now some of the hot key combinations are literally beyond this old man's ability to do without using my nose and stuff it's... How did you lose a finger? I tore it off! Dare I ask? I just caught my ring on something and I stepped eight inches off something - it stripped it off the bone, we have pictures on the web of that also. But I used to work at a trauma department and I've flown with a 103rd combat medics, I've been captain of a rescue squad. So I look down and I just go: I know where I'm going today - I didn't even tell my wife right. I figured she's away at a quilting bee, having a good day, the next day I was: Hi, uh, lost a finger and she got mad at me for not telling her. I would get mad at you too... just saying like: oh Chee how's the quilt work? Good what did you do? I just lost my finger. Yeah, yeah well my son actually looked at it and we took pictures - by the way I had to wait half an hour for an ambulance and being a former ambulance guy that was just like -  that was an insult on top of injury literally. But I wanted him to think of it clinically and not be freaked out by it so we took pictures and stuff like that and then I told him, I said: well I'm going to - don't tell your mother - but I'm gonna leave with these ambulance people now and I'll be home probably tomorrow, because I know how things work, and he comes running to the door and he goes: dad, dad what's the key to unlock the Xbox? I'm like: okay you're gonna be fine by yourself. First time he was by himself, he's thinking about the Xbox so, all right! Oh my gosh you crack me up. What else do you want to talk about relative to CAD tools? I'm looking at my notes here - you were talking about something - you talked about the buses, nomenclature and index based even that you'd said you hate those. So what else did we not cover? I think the main thing is just how productive can you be? How well is it designed? And I was impressed by early CAD, which came out at like $4.99 in the 80s and we were like: whoa! I mean it's like that old monochrome purse, now there's PCs right -  late 80s and the things you can do where if you copy a bunch of address lines, you can tell it when to paste it, auto-increment all those address lines as if I was continuing to do them. So if I grab a 0 to 7 and I paste it, now 8 to 15 is done for me. Well you can fly, when somebody has thought of things like that to do, you can go rogue. And it has to be controllable - sometimes you go, no I really wanted a zero to seven and -  but there's tools like that, that can really make it. So, just the ability to double click and there's a new segment just like the one above it, tools like that are real important to me where I've just spent too many hours drawing in each line by hand. Right, yeah I love when - well since I've been here at Altium, one of my fun parts of my job has been to help connect our developers with hard-working designers where they can say: do it this way, we don't work that way you know, it's really nice when CAD tools will actually get together with the guys that are watching and just watch 'em work and go: oh   - because again it's easy for developers even if they've laid out boards - to make assumptions right. So I really love it when tool manufacturers actually take that into consideration and I love that we're doing that more and more these days. BOM distributor integration? Uh it's probably the one thing we didn't have in the old days BOM integration where, and even picking the footprints, we had a three-ring binder of IPC footprints   and that was always a step where errors could occur. I'm thinking this way, PCB designer's thinking that way, wrong footprint gets in there. But then even now, we can with Altium, for example, you see the part as it's a digi-key or arrow and you can make an attempt to select a part. Now; sounds great, but you end up getting into trouble when you go: oh wow, now I have to redo it for real, for the auto, for - I still call it auto insertion - for the pick and place. You know or, guess what? The stock status isn't quite what you thought it is, there's a delay in there and so now you're stalled, so you still have to, I think in my world, I still do a final BOM as a spreadsheet literally. But I get a lot closer in the tool. In the old days we were using microfiche if you didn't have the data book right? So nowadays it's integrated so it - again you have to be careful - it's a tool, it won't do your work for you and that's the thing. I was just going to say - I've worked with also like hiCAD and now KiCAD... however they pronounce it. I know, I never know how to say it either. Yeah and it was good in that you could add modules to it. It was bad in that you could add modules to it. I kind of wanted already the 3d viewer working - ready to play with it and stuff like that. I'm really impressed with Proteus instead of EAGLE for that low-end market, not up here where Altium is, but that's when I was shooting  little two inch by two inch boards for Hackaday and I'm doing a complete design every month and doing a video, and so I design it and it gets a minute of video time right. Then I throw it away to start on the next one. So it's called ARES and unfortunately the other one is ISIS, (nobody likes that name anymore), but that's the product name and they have an amazing auto router in there that'll get you a good completion, whereas if you've ever tried EAGLE it's like why do I even try the auto router you know? So that turns out to be in, and they singled out the maker market by including Arduino in issuing 80 mega parts in simulation and firmware simulation so now you can simulate it as if you've written the code. You don't even need to build the board to see if it works. And that's a cool feature. And we didn't talk about simulation - almost all CAD tools these days do include SPICE of some sort or a SPICE portal or something like that, and that's useful if you're down in the analog stuff especially. Again still just a tool. I've seen SPICE lie horribly to you,  and you think it's going to work and it's really an artifact of zero volts or something like that. Well there's a lot of talk these days about - because so many really capable designers like you, and like many people I know have learned this over a lifetime right - so if you're a new designer where are you gonna on board that outside of just one-on-one mentoring? Like any clues? There's some good YouTubes out there, but I haven't found where you can -  one, I don't have the attention span to watch somebody else work for five hours to pick up a couple tips right. So it's in the YouTubes showing you what they want to show you, but the best way is literally to be near somebody that's really good at it that's -  unfortunately that's the best way - it's almost always like people almost pair off in engineering where one guy's learning from another even if they swap roles later that day because he's better at something else. That's just kind of the way it ends up going. Yup, so I think what you're saying is find a mentor if you're not really good at it. Right yeah and vice versa and mentor others. So I was talking about the wire, on each and every C128 board. Okay, oh yeah actually Ben Jordan snuck that to me. So let's go into war stories a little bit and let's talk about 'the wire' also I'll get a screenshot of this I think Ben or do you have it? [Bill reaches over to show C128 board] That's so cool okay for - oh my gosh okay, so for those of you that are listening to this on the straight-up podcast you need to go to this portion and look at the YouTube just to see this giant board that he's pulling out of the Commodore 128 and look at the keyboard. This is what we call a 'barn door stop' it's too big to be a regular doorstop and that keyboard I designed by looking down at my BT 220 and I said, hey it works for me it'll work for future users too. I'll hold it up to the microphone for users at home right Okay. But there is a wire on each and every... we made 5.7 million of these. Oh okay. Wait before you go into the wire story, give us the stats on Commodore 64 going towards it and compare that to the Apple because I thought it was really interesting. Yeah the - and actually I narrated a video by a company called Junk Food about the - called the 8-Bit Generation, and I learned some things - our version of history wasn't quite as clean-cut as to who was the first and the best computer company out there so I'll give a little props there. But we often said, Apple's just using our parts, because we made the 6502. Well that's the processor they used, but we made the chip. So in our minds Apple did come out and they were first to get a floppy drive and some color early on, but then we come whooshing by them with the Commodore 64 whereas they sold 5 million of the Apple 2 that you're always seeing on every show about the 80s right. You see a show about Silicon Valley: 'we created the home computer' I don't agree, sorry I'm from Commodore I am a competitor and we made 27 million Commodore 64's we had all 64K, we had these cool color chips and sound chips that they didn't have and we could do animation because we have these things called Sprites, except Sprite was trademarked by Texas Instruments so we had to call 'em movable object blocks, but everybody called them Sprites, so you could write a game right and the blocks are moving themselves around, you're not having to rewrite that whole screen and everything so it was an amazing computer and we called it the 'Apple killer' because we actually stopped talking about Apple. Yeah then my boss wanted to kill Sinclair, remember the Timex Sinclairs? I don't. They're little tiny door stops now - I actually did use one of those for a doorstop and then the marketing department saw that and so suddenly every door in marketing has a Sinclair holding it open... That's so funny I don't even remember that one which I'm kind of surprised. I was kind of tuned in at that time but not that tuned in I guess. It was a $50 computer and actually, when the basic ran, the screen would go to crap because it couldn't share the BUS, remember I talked about that earlier, and then they came out with a color one and and it was cheap. I mean the Commodore 64 was $299 - by the way the Apple 2 was like $1500, $1700 and we're $299 - and then we did something like we lowered the price to $100 if you send us your old computer. So people were buying Sinclair's for $49, sending them to us to save $50 and that's of course 50 1980-dollars so this was - if you can see it through the microphone here - this was the one of the family that we called Ted and this was basically the Raspberry Pie of the day, it's all in there. The one chip does the video and the sound, and there's a processor. Oh and the video sound chip runs all the D-RAM and does all the crazy interfaces to the keyboard. So it's literally like very close to a single chip board even though there was nine in the original - nine chips - yeah you cracked open an IBM PC and there was 280 something like that. That's crazy and even the 128, as big as that was, had a couple couple tens of chips in there. So and then Jack Turmel unfortunately left Commodore and this product I was showing, this Ted thing. Without him there to drive the vision, that product kind of failed and we even had a talking version. We had snagged the guys from TI Speak and Spell, which was a big thing in the 80s and we had them working at Commodore, so we had a talking version of a computer with a desktop that Apple tell you later they invented the desktop. Well no. The guys at PARC invented it but we had one, it was just our founder left and it floundered without the founder. Crazy, okay show us the wire. Okay, so then the 128. What happened was I had gone to a CES show and by the way CES shows drove everything for us, Consumer Electronics Shows, mostly cuz if you ask them if they'll move it a day so you can hit your schedule they'll say no, so the CES show is - this is a scheduled date you cannot miss - you can't miss it by five minutes, you can't miss it by a day and so we decided - and by we I mean the engineers, we didn't even really tell management about the C128 till it was too late and then we would do things to it. Like I added a z80 processor so it became - it's Commodore 64 compatible - so suddenly nobody's going to complain at me because there's no software, can run all the old software, but then turns out the z80 cartridge didn't work very well on the Commodore 64, so I just put the z80 right in the board and after the PC board Rev was done I said: oh by the way I added the z80, they knew they couldn't tell me to take it out now or we'll miss CES. So then pretty soon the guy would be: I had a great idea to leave the z80 in there   you're like, cool go tell marketing, take a doorstop with you right. So one of the things we did is, even as we're getting ready for the CES show - it was January 6th that year I think - we're already getting ready for FCC, so we're working on the final production and that's all in five months. I started this near August and we had six -  five or six customized C's that needed to be done and so again that was our wheelhouse - this is custom, this is custom, this is custom, that - one of the other ones in here - and we're going like the wind right. Well right near the end, the z80 stopped working reliably. It wouldn't boot CPM 20% of the time, and me and my boss were fighting. It's bound to happen right, he'd already gotten his bonus I think to let me go around barefooted was like wearing thin right. But the - - oh, I lost my train of thought that almost never happens when you get old… [laughter] You fought? Oh I was fighting with the boss and he said: fine, I'll give it to somebody else to fix that problem! I said: fine, I'll take a shower and go home and get a nap! Right, so for a week, I mean I had a great week. I caught up on my hygiene,  (I won't tell you some of the other things you do when you're full of testosterone when you're young). But he comes to my office Friday, and in my mind he puffed on his cigar (you could still smoke in the office back then). I don't know if he had a cigar that day, but that's my memory and he goes: fix it or you're fired. I'm, oh sure I can do that, you're ready now for me to rejoin the workforce? Absolutely, I'm clean, I get along with people, and I just happen to luck out where I'm -   the oscilloscopes of the day weren't like the Tektronix MSO scopes - like I got back there, I had to turn it up real bright, and then I would stare at it and then turn and look at a wall and I would see the reverse image and I go: there's a glitch right there - I'm pointing at it so someone can see it because he hasn't burned his retinas staring into the light - and they think I'm nuts, and I was right. There was a glitch on this A10 line, when the z80 was the processor, but when the 6502 was the processor there's no glitch. I mean it's right around when the D Rams were doing something and so it comes down to understanding how a signal propagates down and this is part of PC board layout right. And I liken it to when the 6502 was driving the length of the line that drove it all the way to the end, like playing a flute correctly, but when the z80 drove it from an extension down the line it was like blowing into one of the holes on the flute and it's kind of not - and so I got a standing wave, where the wave’s going back and forth and bouncing into itself and it just happened to do it on A10 at the wrong time and I caught it on the scope in an hour. Of course nobody believes me right, so and the way I made it work, was I took that wire that I showed you that's redundant. There's already a trace on the PC board, I just soldered this again so now it's actually a loop right it can't bounce - - Ah it had a return path, okay. Yeah or propagates like this,  but either way it's not a standing wave anymore at a certain spot, and it just happened to be that spot was the multiplexer for the D-RAMs and they think I'm nuts right because not only do I fix it an hour, I fixed it with a wire! So we ran 10,000 units to prove that Herd's gone off the deep end and we got a hundred percent pass rate on it. It actually fixed the problem. So now the wire drives me nuts because there's 5.7 million wires out there and people said: why didn't you just change the PC board? It's like: because actually I found it this time, if there were no tools to do anything, if I change the PC board I might have moved a glitch to somewhere I can't find right. So the devil you know - and that's how it ended up going out. That's crazy  - and from by the way - having a background in EMS. For an EMS provider, to have to put a wire on five million boards, that's crazy nobody would do that today but it's cool! We called it post solder assembly and it's horribly expensive that's five point seven million dollars. It probably cost $1, the wire was a penny and 99 cents to put it on there, so we just did that. There was one other fun issue with the schedule of the 128. Okay. At one point - and see we didn't have real deep analyzers and stuff - so when the processor goes flying off the tracks because the memory is corrupted you'd go, well when in the last two minutes or two million cycles did the corruption occur? Because the analyzer's not going to catch it, unless you're so lucky right. So one of the things I noticed is, it would corrupt in the video memory and the video's memory is being scanned 15,000 times, 60 cycles a second and so I took a light pin and I put it on this spot on the screen right where the corruption would occur and I sent my analyzer, so soon as the spot on the screen occurred the light pen triggered my analyzer. And it's actually a commodore light pin - I still have it - was actually plugged into the joystick port of the system on troubleshooting and it turns out - it was called ground lift, and you're probably familiar with that. There was a stub of a little over an eighth of an inch on the ground pin of a DRAM multiplexer, and it's inductance mixed with the capacitance meant it would come off of ground when you went to switch a whole bunch of zeros to a one - except for one - that other one became a one also it just dragged everything with it. Oh, got it. Yeah and I also took - literally another little piece of wire - fixed it and then I yelled at Fish to fix. That one I made him fix but the only way we could catch it in that case, is I used a light pin to catch this little 1/8 inch piece of trace that was just playing with me. Well you know what I love about these stories Bill, is that I think it's lovely to tell them and show people what a Wild West it was and how we solved, but people like you solved things really simply because now we sit on all these really complex tools and really we stand on the shoulders of people like you right, who were innovating back in the day where we did not have the complexity of tools or things and it's easy to take those things for granted now because so much can just run in the background and you so I think it's fascinating to hear these really - like these MacGyver ways that you figured out how to fix it - you're like the original PCB design MacGyver dude. So one other quick story and it goes right to that - about the tools and the software simulations and things and it's the day I knew I was working in the right place. And this isn't my story - this actually is the chip designer stories for the Ted, for that thing I showed you. They had design roll checks when they laid out an ICs that told him if two things got too close to each other, but they didn't have an electrical rule check to tell 'em if it's supposed to be shorted together or not, so they turned a corner. They had like A7, A8 and A9 cut right across the other to address lines and it shorted 'em out, and they had no way to check that - unless they hand looked at every plot of every layer of what made up an integrated circuit. Well they - meanwhile cost a quarter million dollars to do another run. So what they did - I'm in the hardware lab, and the guy goes: okay turn on that - turn on the microscope light. Okay turn it off - good we're in NTSC mode. And I turn and I look and I'm like: did you just flip the status of a register with photons while looking at it under the microscope? And he goes: yeah uh huh, and I'm like: AH I'm in the right place, this is where I wanna be! Yeah and they didn't have the tools that told them if what was on the schematics, what made it onto the chip. So yeah and they would spend five months, with a ruler actually called a scale, checking the plot. That's the only way they could do it. That's amazing well thank you for sharing this - unfortunately we're running out of time. But thank you so much for sharing your history and your ingenuity and the stories of Commodore and giving our listeners really some practical ways of just jumping into a new tool, if they have to right, nobody likes change but I'm sure you would attest to that overall has probably helped you become a better designer to go ahead and jump in and you could probably jump into a new tool easily now it probably doesn't freak you out as much as it used to. If you know you're going to be overwhelmed, then you're right on schedule when you get overwhelmed - and then you just go back into it and you know, how do you eat an elephant? A bite at a time - same thing. Just acceptance that it's going to be frustrating and this is the cycle. Yeah that you'll screw it up and then fix it, just don't ruin your libraries in the process. Okay, well some good, good wisdom. So thank you again Bill for your time, it's been a delight to hear about everything and I just by the way - best background - those of you listening, you really need to go look at the YouTube version of this, because his lab looks like you'd all want to go live in it man it looks like there's everything in there it's awesome. What's up with the penguin by the way? There's a penguin, that looks like it's standing on your shoulders? On the telly, it used to be on top of the oscilloscope but now it's just with you so that's that's a Monty Python penguin, that's from our era right? Totally, that is so funny! Okay, well thank you again for joining myself and Bill Herd today on Altium's OnTrack podcast. I'll make sure to share all of his colorful links and Wikipedia and videos from Hackaday and thanks for joining us again. We'll see you next time - until then remember to always stay on track.  

Original Release Date: January 26, 2017 Welcome to Tooning Japanese, a podcast where three dudes in their 30s talk about Japanese anime! So Bill was sick this week, and we once again could not record an episode.  Instead of giving you dead air, we decided to instead give you another episode in our review series of Pokemon Generations!  This time around Andy and Ray talk about Episodes 5 and 6 as well as their experience watching Sailor Moon R: Promise of the Rose in theaters! Watch Pokemon Generations Episode 5: The Legacy on YouTube!Watch Pokemon Generations Episode 6: The Reawakening on YouTube! If you enjoy this episode, know that we're in the process of moving our current feed over from Podomatic to Podbean so that we can provide all of our previous episodes to our fans once again. Stick with us as this process may take a little bit of time. For now, you can find our episodes on Podomatic and on our website. You can also find our show and other great podcasts on The Questionable Endeavor Network. To help support our move to Podbean, become a Patron today!

Hillary Clinton is the former Democratic nominee for president. Her new book is What Happened. “I hugged a lot of people after [my concession speech] was over. A lot of people cried … and then it was done. So Bill and I went out and got in the back of the van that we drive around in, and I just felt like all of the adrenaline was drained. I mean there was nothing left. It was like somebody had pulled the plug on a bathtub and everything just drained out. I just slumped over. Sat there. … And then we got home, and it was just us as it has been for so many years—in our little house, with our dogs. It was a really painful, exhausting time.” Thanks to MailChimp, Audible, and Casper for sponsoring this week's episode. @HillaryClinton hillaryclinton.com [00:15] What Happened (Simon & Schuster • 2017) [03:45] Global Warming For Dummies (Elizabeth May & Zoe Caron • For Dummies • 2008) [26:00] "The Comey Letter Probably Cost Clinton the Election" (Nate Silver • FiveThirtyEight • May 2017) [31:00] "Rosenstein’s Case Against Comey, Annotated" (Candice Norwood & Elaine Godfrey • Atlantic • May 2017) [32:00] The Creation of Anne Boleyn: A New Look at England’s Most Notorious Queen (Susan Bordo • Melville House • 2014) [32:00] The Destruction of Hillary Clinton (Susan Bordo • Melville House • 2017) [37:45] "Margaret Atwood, The Prophet of Dystopia" (Rebecca Mead • New Yorker • Apr 2017)

Your Mac is a great platform for making podcasts: tools like GarageBand and Transmit make it straightforward. But making and maintaining the RSS feed for Podcast Connect is a chore that is fraught with potential errors. So Bill made this new App to make it quick and easy to create your RSS feed. Here are Bill and Chris with a 30 minute in-depth look at Podcast RSSer.

Bill Drummond is many things. As well as an artist, a writer and former pop-star - he's the owner of an old curfew tower in Northern Ireland which he runs as an artists' residency. Last year some poets from Belfast's Seamus Heaney Centre for Poetry stayed there and Bill published their collected work in a little black book called The Curfew Tower is Many Things. Except for a poem the award-winning Belfast poet Stephen Sexton wrote. Apparently that one went missing. So Bill has left two pages blank in the book for Stephen to fill in with poetry as they drive through all of Ireland's 32 counties in 5 days in a white Ford Transit hire-van, giving out copies as they go. But what exactly is driving Bill Drummond? Producer Conor Garrett is there to find out. As they cross the Irish border and over each county boundary, Conor is becoming increasingly concerned he may not have a good enough story for his radio programme. It's a problem further complicated by the fact Bill won't talk about his chart-topping '90s pop band who once famously set fire to a very large pile of their own cash. Then, when a narrative arc does eventually develop, Conor can't be sure how authentic it is. And what's all this stuff about eels? Producer: Conor Garrett.

There’s no school like the old school… On today’s episode Russell talks about plans to use what he has learned from TJ Rholeder while on an anniversary trip in Hawaii, in his business once he arrives home. Here are a few interesting things you will learn in this episode: How Russell is able to still learn while on an anniversary trip with his wife, and make plans for business once he’s home. How Russell plans to use the 50,000 letters a week rule in his own business. And how he plans to add urgency and scarcity to his core products. So listen here to hear Russell’s upcoming plans for his business, or watch the video version so you don’t miss out on the beautiful scenery of Kauai. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody, this is Russell. Welcome to today’s episode of Marketing Secrets, that is in the rain here in Kauai. Alright everybody, I want to welcome to today’s episode of Marketing Secrets, it is raining on me right now. I don’t know if you can see that over here, if you’re watching the video version.  But it’s beautiful here and I wanted to do an episode, this is going to be really good, I’m going to come and hide under the bush or something. I’m just going to sit here and get wet, it’ll be more fun this way. Anyway, we’ve been in Hawaii almost a week now on my 15th anniversary, which is amazing being married to my beautiful wife, Collette for this long. I’m trying to get to do an episode with you guys, hopefully on the flight home or something, on what it’s like living with and being married to an entrepreneur. We’re trying to pick our keynote speaker for this year’s Funnel Hacking Live, and it’s funny because we got tons of people voting for everybody. Somebody posted Oprah, and someone put Russell’s wife and my wife got more votes than Oprah, which is pretty exciting. So we’re trying to get her at least to jump on the podcast. So that’s the goal and the game plan. What I want to share with you guys today, the rain’s gone that fast, but there’s birds right behind me. Let me clean my phone off real quick. So what I wanted to share with you guys, I’ve been listening to a whole bunch of cool marketing stuff between the long drives around the island, all the cool stuff we’re doing. The course I was listening to was TJ Rohleder and if you don’t know TJ, he’s one of the legends in our business. He is one of the direct mail kings in the Bizop world, and he’s become a friend. We had him speak at one of our events a while ago, which was amazing. What’s interesting, the course I was listening to was How To Become Super Rich in the Opportunity Market. He teaches people how to  make money in the teach people how to get rich market. What’s interesting, as I was listening to it, if you read the Expert Secrets book, I talked about three core things you gotta do to build a mass movement. Number one you gotta have the attractive character, the attractive leader. Number two you have to have a future based cause. Number three you have to have a new opportunity. What’s interesting is as I was listening to this, he’s talking about how to sell opportunities but basically if you’re doing a mass movement the way we’re talking about, it’s always a new opportunity. Everything he’s talking about, the opportunity is the way he positions it is how to get rich, how to make money, here’s the opportunity market as he calls it. But in my mind every market is the opportunity market. So I’m going to see if I can interview TJ and dig deeper in that because his stuff was brilliant, it was all targeted towards selling people stuff, how to make money. But if you look at it from the lens of the Expert Secrets book then it kind of works for all of them. Because every single opportunity, everything you’re selling should be a new opportunity. So I’m going to try to see if I can do that. Plus, TJ launched his company, he lives out in Kansas and he actually bought a hospital and renovated the whole thing and that’s where he runs his company out of, an old hospital, which is kind of cool. I kind of want to go down there and see his whole operation. It may come to an episode of Funnel Hacker TV soon. Where I go down there and tour his hospital and see his whole organization. In the last ten years they’ve sent out 9500 different direct mail campaigns, which is crazy. Some people will get on his list and they might get between 2 or 300 letters in the mail per year, depending on what sequence they take, what offers they say yes to and no to and all sorts of stuff. Super inspiring. But what I want to talk about is a couple of core things I learned from him that I think are really good for all of you guys. The first one is not from TJ it’s actually from a Bill Glazier thing I was listening to. So Bill was partners with Dan Kennedy at Glazier Kennedy and he was my marketing dad for five or six year that I was in his inner circle. And one of the things that was cool that I was studying from Bill this week, he was talking about how at the very beginning of the year they have their big thing. So they do two events a year, they did InfoSummit and Super Conference. For me, I do Funnel Hacking Live, that’s my big thing. They said they categorized all their promotions based on the importance. So number were their two events, number two was this, number three…they had it all mapped out and mapped out the entire year, the promotional schedule at the beginning of the year to make sure they fill the events and all these other things fit in there. I was thinking about that, and I don’t know about you guys, but I’m not super good at mapping out my promotional calendar and schedule and things like that. I kind of just go week by week, month by month and do stuff. And what Bill does in this course, and it’s an old course, but he maps it out and then they do everything. So It started thinking about this and at one of our inner circle meetings, Justin Williams was talking about with his stuff now, as you guys know if you’ve been listening to our podcast for any length of time, the two magic things that marketers have are urgency and scarcity. So he started doing with his is, he re-launched courses throughout the year and he’d open and close them. So he’d have the urgency and scarcity close. That’s where most of the sales always come in, during the closing of the thing. Also if you listened to when Stu launched Tribe, he’s talking about Michael Hyatt when he launched his membership site, the big secret they had was opening and closing. So twice a year they’d open up the membership site and then it was closed. I started thinking about that and I’m like, right now most of our programs are open all the time, which is good. But the urgency and scarcity is not there. So I think what I’m going to do is start calendaring it out where twice a year our things are available. So twice a year people can buy our certification program, twice a year people can join Funnel University, twice a year they can get Fill Your Funnel, twice a year….all of our core offers are only open twice during the year, and they’re closed down other than that, which is kind of fun. It gives us the ability to have urgency and scarcity and build up the hype and the buzz, and it gives me each month, something to focus on. This month is Funnel U month and we’re going to open and close it. The next month is this, we’re going to open it and close it and all content and all things can be related back to that one thing. So that was the first thing I kind of started re –thinking through when I was listening to Bill Glazier talk about how they structured their promotions around their events. That’s the first cool thing. Now with TJ, a couple of cool things that he does, I think it was good for me to hear again, it’s good for all of you guys to hear again. So TJ is in the business opportunity market, mostly through direct mail. He has 50,000 letters he mails every single week. Week in and week out consistently, they know 50,000 letters will go out every single week all for new customer acquisition. New customer acquisition, 50,000 letters every single week. And that’s just the schedule. I think for a lot of us we get in this thing where we have these front end funnels, these break even funnels where we bring people in, then we have our monetization funnel. So I think a lot of us, we create a really good webinar funnel let’s say, and then that becomes our focus. And then that’s it, we’re driving traffic and that’s the business. TJ if you look at this again, he’s got his frontend lead gen offers and he’s mailing 50,000 pieces a week. He said at his peak, he was selling a $50 course from his frontend lead gen stuff, and he said he would spend up to $500 to sell a $50 course.  From there you go into all the backend funnels and the backend things he was selling. But he had this consistency of 50,000 pieces every single week. I started thinking about that. He’s mailing 50,000 new names every single week, what’s the equivalent of that for my business? I need to make sure I have something consistently doing that every single week to one frontend offer. He talked about one of the big things also is he’s not mailing 2 things or 3 things to that 50,000. They have one offer, the hottest converting one and that’s where they drive all their energy, all their money, everything. And for us, I think all of us, we have our hot offer, we need to be spending as much as we can to get people into that thing consistently every single week. Just knowing I spend 50 grand a week, or 10 grand a week or a thousand bucks a week, whatever it is for you, into that frontend thing. If you break, if you think about this, break it down, there’s kind of two sides to this, or three sides depending on how deep you want to get. We talk about this at this upcoming Funnel Hacking Live, but there’s a process. There’s basically three types of funnels. There’s acquisition funnels, getting people in. There’s ascension funnels, ascending up within your membership. Then there’s monetization funnels. But for this argument today, I’m just going to talk about the two. So there’s an acquisition funnels, so what is your one acquisition funnel that you can consistently do X with? For me it might be I need to sell at least a thousand books a week, or I need to spend 10 grand a week, or whatever that thing is for you. You just know that and you have to do it consistently. We have to sell a thousand books a week and we should build a whole team of people whose entire goal is to sell a thousand books a week, or 5 thousand, or whatever that number is for you. Back when I had a call center, that’s how it was. We had free plus shipping leads and we had to get 8 thousand leads a month to get enough leads for our sales floor and that became the focus of the business. For you it’s like, think about TJ, what is the frontend offer that’s consistently bring people in? And then from TJ, it’s so crazy. I’m hoping I can go down there and film his whole operation for you guys because I want to see it to. But like I said, as soon as someone gets through the frontend then he’s got all these direct mail campaigns that go out offering these two step things. So he’ll send out a letter for a free cd about whatever to the existing customers. So he’s only sending it to people that already bought his $50 thing, then he’ll put them onto a sequence that gets a free cd. Then if they respond to the free cd he puts them in a sequence to sell the thing that that cd upsells to. Then he puts out the next offer and the next offer and he keeps putting out all these frontend lead gen, I guess their acquisition and monetization letters to the buyers of his 50,000 a week thing. So 50,000 a week bringing people in. And after they come in and bought the $50 thing, then he starts sending them letters trying to get them to raise their hand about specific opportunities that he’s going to sell them. If they respond to those then they go into a whole other sequence. They might get 10, 15, 20 letters to sell a 2 or 3 or 5 thousand dollar course on the backend. And that’s kind of the process that he does over and over and over again. So for me, what I’m looking at, what I want my focus to be, is somebody comes into my world, and again I’m focusing way more effort consistently on this, I’m going to call it 50,000 letters a week, but for us we’re not doing direct mail right now, so it’s not that, but that’s the concept. The frontend lead acquisition. Then if they come in, we’re taking our core courses and we’re opening them and closing them, opening them and closing, opening and closing them, opening and closing them throughout the year. So those are our monetization funnels after people come in. So that’s kind of the game, and I’m really excited for it. So that’s the game I’m going to be playing and I hope you guys model that. The other cool thing I’m going to be doing, and I’ve been thinking a lot about this for probably two weeks. It started at Scout camp and it’s been in my mind even here as we’ve been in this beach house. Having one really good follow up funnel sequence that takes people through my offers in a very strategic way. So we have igniteyourfunnel.com, which is right now, we’re using it for something completely different, but I’m going to be changing that to where this is an opt in form where we get people to opt into and then it’s going to take them through a sequence. I haven’t quite mapped the whole thing out, but first thing I want someone to buy is what? For my business the first thing I want someone to buy is Expert Secrets, so I’m going to be like, have a video of me explaining why they need Expert Secrets and why it’s step number one. Actually, let me step back, step number one is not going to be the book. Step number one is going to be, on the podcast you guys heard a little while ago, the two episodes on You’re one Funnel Away, I’m going to show that video to build connection with people immediately after they opt in, from there I’ll tell them to get the Expert Secrets book and then from there, what do they need next? I’ll logically build out a really long sequence that’s going to be this ascension funnel that takes them up through our core offers in the middle. And then the big thing that our team is going to be focusing on is RKPI’s how many opt in’s a day are we getting inside the Ignite Your Funnel funnel, the Ignite your Funnel ascension funnel, ascending them through all of our offers. I’m trying to think how this whole thing works together. It might be when someone opt’s in the first time they go through this ascension funnel, that all those offers will be open to them, open and close, like in Evergreen format. And after that they’ll bump over to a monetization funnel. Our longer term email sequences that then they’ll be on when we open and close them each month. I’m not positive on that, still figuring out the details. But it’s fun to think through it. Anyway, that’s the game plan. So those are some of the fun things I’ve learned and been thinking about while I’ve been here having some fun in Kauai on my 15 year anniversary. I hope that gives you guys some ideas and things to think about. So kind of to recap the important things. Number one is focusing on consistently bringing new blood into your business. 50,000 letters a week rule, should we call it that? 50,000 letters a week rule, consistently bringing new blood in. I remember Garret White at the last Funnel Hacking Live talked about people that make it rain, the rainmakers are the ones who dominate this world and this business. You gotta be focusing on making it rain. If you want to learn how to make it rain, right now the program is closed, but depending on when you’re listening it might be open, is our Fill Your Funnel course. Fill Your Funnel is all about how to make it rain, how to get new customers into your funnels. So that’s number one. Number is then after they come in, what’s the monetization?  So maybe number two is the ascension funnel, which is for me it’s ignite your funnel, which takes them through our offers in chronological order of when I want them to see things, opening and closing them in Evergreen format. And at the end of that, then put them into our monetization team, monetization funnels, which then would be taking our core six offers and opening and closing them twice a year. That’s going to be the business. That gets me really excited. Really, really excited. So anyway, that’s the game plan guys. I’m glad I had a chance to talk this out with you guys, it’s making it clearer and clearer in my mind. I hope you guys something of value out of that too. But like I said, I don’t just talk about this stuff, I practice what I preach so you will see me implementing these things in the very near future. Hopefully you guys will see them and enjoy them and model and funnel hack them for what you guys are doing because I know this stuff is going to be amazing. So that’s all I got you guys. Anyway, here’s one last view. Here’s the beach house we’ve been staying in. It’s an AirBNB, we were going to get a hotel and we looked at AirBNB and we found this. AirBNB or BRB, I can’t remember which one. It’s like 5000 square feet, my wife and I are up here and Brent and Amber are over here. There’s all this open space and there’s even like huge guest house over here that we got massages in the other day. It’s crazy. We’re literally, this is our beach. It’s just ours. And it’s crazy. I was flying the quad copter today, I learned how to finally fly the quad copter. I took it out over everything. So if you’re watching Funnel Hacker TV, which hopefully you are, you’ll have a chance to see above this place and beyond, it’s insane. It’s probably a little expensive, but for your 15th anniversary you go all out. Look at that, that’s our beach. We rented these paddle boards too, I guess if you’re listening on the podcast you can’t see this. But a couple of cool things also, just so you guys know. This is obviously on the audio podcast, which right now as of today, we’re number 5 in the business category, which is awesome. We’re still killing it there, we just also released this as a video podcast, if you go to iTunes at the very top there’s audio podcasts, you can switch to video podcast. We also have Marketing Secrets as a video podcast now too. So if you want to watch the videos, or if you want to watch the videos you can go to marketingsecrets.com and they’re all listed there along with the transcripts, see if you want to listen to what I’m saying and read along. The transcripts are at marketingsecrets.com as well. With that said, I would love it if you guys would give me a review and a rating over on iTunes. Like I said, we’re number 5 in the business category, the other guys above me still have more ratings, it’s not fair. I’m killing myself giving you guys the best stuff I got, I need some more ratings. So if you can take 5 seconds out of your busy day, stop everything, go over there, leave a rating and review, tell me what you think about Marketing Secrets, let the world know, that’d be awesome. And then the other thing is please subscribe to the video podcast as well. Feel free to watch the videos there if you want, that way you can see some of the beautiful scenery behind me. Yeah, that’s all I got you guys. Thanks again for listening, have an amazing day and we’ll see you guys soon. We’ll be back in Boise next week, back to a normal schedule. I got some cool stuff I want to publish and share with you guys. I gotta finish my anniversary and then get back to you guys soon. Appreciate you all, see you guys soon. Bye.

There’s no school like the old school… On today’s episode Russell talks about plans to use what he has learned from TJ Rholeder while on an anniversary trip in Hawaii, in his business once he arrives home. Here are a few interesting things you will learn in this episode: How Russell is able to still learn while on an anniversary trip with his wife, and make plans for business once he’s home. How Russell plans to use the 50,000 letters a week rule in his own business. And how he plans to add urgency and scarcity to his core products. So listen here to hear Russell’s upcoming plans for his business, or watch the video version so you don’t miss out on the beautiful scenery of Kauai. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody, this is Russell. Welcome to today’s episode of Marketing Secrets, that is in the rain here in Kauai. Alright everybody, I want to welcome to today’s episode of Marketing Secrets, it is raining on me right now. I don’t know if you can see that over here, if you’re watching the video version.  But it’s beautiful here and I wanted to do an episode, this is going to be really good, I’m going to come and hide under the bush or something. I’m just going to sit here and get wet, it’ll be more fun this way. Anyway, we’ve been in Hawaii almost a week now on my 15th anniversary, which is amazing being married to my beautiful wife, Collette for this long. I’m trying to get to do an episode with you guys, hopefully on the flight home or something, on what it’s like living with and being married to an entrepreneur. We’re trying to pick our keynote speaker for this year’s Funnel Hacking Live, and it’s funny because we got tons of people voting for everybody. Somebody posted Oprah, and someone put Russell’s wife and my wife got more votes than Oprah, which is pretty exciting. So we’re trying to get her at least to jump on the podcast. So that’s the goal and the game plan. What I want to share with you guys today, the rain’s gone that fast, but there’s birds right behind me. Let me clean my phone off real quick. So what I wanted to share with you guys, I’ve been listening to a whole bunch of cool marketing stuff between the long drives around the island, all the cool stuff we’re doing. The course I was listening to was TJ Rohleder and if you don’t know TJ, he’s one of the legends in our business. He is one of the direct mail kings in the Bizop world, and he’s become a friend. We had him speak at one of our events a while ago, which was amazing. What’s interesting, the course I was listening to was How To Become Super Rich in the Opportunity Market. He teaches people how to  make money in the teach people how to get rich market. What’s interesting, as I was listening to it, if you read the Expert Secrets book, I talked about three core things you gotta do to build a mass movement. Number one you gotta have the attractive character, the attractive leader. Number two you have to have a future based cause. Number three you have to have a new opportunity. What’s interesting is as I was listening to this, he’s talking about how to sell opportunities but basically if you’re doing a mass movement the way we’re talking about, it’s always a new opportunity. Everything he’s talking about, the opportunity is the way he positions it is how to get rich, how to make money, here’s the opportunity market as he calls it. But in my mind every market is the opportunity market. So I’m going to see if I can interview TJ and dig deeper in that because his stuff was brilliant, it was all targeted towards selling people stuff, how to make money. But if you look at it from the lens of the Expert Secrets book then it kind of works for all of them. Because every single opportunity, everything you’re selling should be a new opportunity. So I’m going to try to see if I can do that. Plus, TJ launched his company, he lives out in Kansas and he actually bought a hospital and renovated the whole thing and that’s where he runs his company out of, an old hospital, which is kind of cool. I kind of want to go down there and see his whole operation. It may come to an episode of Funnel Hacker TV soon. Where I go down there and tour his hospital and see his whole organization. In the last ten years they’ve sent out 9500 different direct mail campaigns, which is crazy. Some people will get on his list and they might get between 2 or 300 letters in the mail per year, depending on what sequence they take, what offers they say yes to and no to and all sorts of stuff. Super inspiring. But what I want to talk about is a couple of core things I learned from him that I think are really good for all of you guys. The first one is not from TJ it’s actually from a Bill Glazier thing I was listening to. So Bill was partners with Dan Kennedy at Glazier Kennedy and he was my marketing dad for five or six year that I was in his inner circle. And one of the things that was cool that I was studying from Bill this week, he was talking about how at the very beginning of the year they have their big thing. So they do two events a year, they did InfoSummit and Super Conference. For me, I do Funnel Hacking Live, that’s my big thing. They said they categorized all their promotions based on the importance. So number were their two events, number two was this, number three…they had it all mapped out and mapped out the entire year, the promotional schedule at the beginning of the year to make sure they fill the events and all these other things fit in there. I was thinking about that, and I don’t know about you guys, but I’m not super good at mapping out my promotional calendar and schedule and things like that. I kind of just go week by week, month by month and do stuff. And what Bill does in this course, and it’s an old course, but he maps it out and then they do everything. So It started thinking about this and at one of our inner circle meetings, Justin Williams was talking about with his stuff now, as you guys know if you’ve been listening to our podcast for any length of time, the two magic things that marketers have are urgency and scarcity. So he started doing with his is, he re-launched courses throughout the year and he’d open and close them. So he’d have the urgency and scarcity close. That’s where most of the sales always come in, during the closing of the thing. Also if you listened to when Stu launched Tribe, he’s talking about Michael Hyatt when he launched his membership site, the big secret they had was opening and closing. So twice a year they’d open up the membership site and then it was closed. I started thinking about that and I’m like, right now most of our programs are open all the time, which is good. But the urgency and scarcity is not there. So I think what I’m going to do is start calendaring it out where twice a year our things are available. So twice a year people can buy our certification program, twice a year people can join Funnel University, twice a year they can get Fill Your Funnel, twice a year….all of our core offers are only open twice during the year, and they’re closed down other than that, which is kind of fun. It gives us the ability to have urgency and scarcity and build up the hype and the buzz, and it gives me each month, something to focus on. This month is Funnel U month and we’re going to open and close it. The next month is this, we’re going to open it and close it and all content and all things can be related back to that one thing. So that was the first thing I kind of started re –thinking through when I was listening to Bill Glazier talk about how they structured their promotions around their events. That’s the first cool thing. Now with TJ, a couple of cool things that he does, I think it was good for me to hear again, it’s good for all of you guys to hear again. So TJ is in the business opportunity market, mostly through direct mail. He has 50,000 letters he mails every single week. Week in and week out consistently, they know 50,000 letters will go out every single week all for new customer acquisition. New customer acquisition, 50,000 letters every single week. And that’s just the schedule. I think for a lot of us we get in this thing where we have these front end funnels, these break even funnels where we bring people in, then we have our monetization funnel. So I think a lot of us, we create a really good webinar funnel let’s say, and then that becomes our focus. And then that’s it, we’re driving traffic and that’s the business. TJ if you look at this again, he’s got his frontend lead gen offers and he’s mailing 50,000 pieces a week. He said at his peak, he was selling a $50 course from his frontend lead gen stuff, and he said he would spend up to $500 to sell a $50 course.  From there you go into all the backend funnels and the backend things he was selling. But he had this consistency of 50,000 pieces every single week. I started thinking about that. He’s mailing 50,000 new names every single week, what’s the equivalent of that for my business? I need to make sure I have something consistently doing that every single week to one frontend offer. He talked about one of the big things also is he’s not mailing 2 things or 3 things to that 50,000. They have one offer, the hottest converting one and that’s where they drive all their energy, all their money, everything. And for us, I think all of us, we have our hot offer, we need to be spending as much as we can to get people into that thing consistently every single week. Just knowing I spend 50 grand a week, or 10 grand a week or a thousand bucks a week, whatever it is for you, into that frontend thing. If you break, if you think about this, break it down, there’s kind of two sides to this, or three sides depending on how deep you want to get. We talk about this at this upcoming Funnel Hacking Live, but there’s a process. There’s basically three types of funnels. There’s acquisition funnels, getting people in. There’s ascension funnels, ascending up within your membership. Then there’s monetization funnels. But for this argument today, I’m just going to talk about the two. So there’s an acquisition funnels, so what is your one acquisition funnel that you can consistently do X with? For me it might be I need to sell at least a thousand books a week, or I need to spend 10 grand a week, or whatever that thing is for you. You just know that and you have to do it consistently. We have to sell a thousand books a week and we should build a whole team of people whose entire goal is to sell a thousand books a week, or 5 thousand, or whatever that number is for you. Back when I had a call center, that’s how it was. We had free plus shipping leads and we had to get 8 thousand leads a month to get enough leads for our sales floor and that became the focus of the business. For you it’s like, think about TJ, what is the frontend offer that’s consistently bring people in? And then from TJ, it’s so crazy. I’m hoping I can go down there and film his whole operation for you guys because I want to see it to. But like I said, as soon as someone gets through the frontend then he’s got all these direct mail campaigns that go out offering these two step things. So he’ll send out a letter for a free cd about whatever to the existing customers. So he’s only sending it to people that already bought his $50 thing, then he’ll put them onto a sequence that gets a free cd. Then if they respond to the free cd he puts them in a sequence to sell the thing that that cd upsells to. Then he puts out the next offer and the next offer and he keeps putting out all these frontend lead gen, I guess their acquisition and monetization letters to the buyers of his 50,000 a week thing. So 50,000 a week bringing people in. And after they come in and bought the $50 thing, then he starts sending them letters trying to get them to raise their hand about specific opportunities that he’s going to sell them. If they respond to those then they go into a whole other sequence. They might get 10, 15, 20 letters to sell a 2 or 3 or 5 thousand dollar course on the backend. And that’s kind of the process that he does over and over and over again. So for me, what I’m looking at, what I want my focus to be, is somebody comes into my world, and again I’m focusing way more effort consistently on this, I’m going to call it 50,000 letters a week, but for us we’re not doing direct mail right now, so it’s not that, but that’s the concept. The frontend lead acquisition. Then if they come in, we’re taking our core courses and we’re opening them and closing them, opening them and closing, opening and closing them, opening and closing them throughout the year. So those are our monetization funnels after people come in. So that’s kind of the game, and I’m really excited for it. So that’s the game I’m going to be playing and I hope you guys model that. The other cool thing I’m going to be doing, and I’ve been thinking a lot about this for probably two weeks. It started at Scout camp and it’s been in my mind even here as we’ve been in this beach house. Having one really good follow up funnel sequence that takes people through my offers in a very strategic way. So we have igniteyourfunnel.com, which is right now, we’re using it for something completely different, but I’m going to be changing that to where this is an opt in form where we get people to opt into and then it’s going to take them through a sequence. I haven’t quite mapped the whole thing out, but first thing I want someone to buy is what? For my business the first thing I want someone to buy is Expert Secrets, so I’m going to be like, have a video of me explaining why they need Expert Secrets and why it’s step number one. Actually, let me step back, step number one is not going to be the book. Step number one is going to be, on the podcast you guys heard a little while ago, the two episodes on You’re one Funnel Away, I’m going to show that video to build connection with people immediately after they opt in, from there I’ll tell them to get the Expert Secrets book and then from there, what do they need next? I’ll logically build out a really long sequence that’s going to be this ascension funnel that takes them up through our core offers in the middle. And then the big thing that our team is going to be focusing on is RKPI’s how many opt in’s a day are we getting inside the Ignite Your Funnel funnel, the Ignite your Funnel ascension funnel, ascending them through all of our offers. I’m trying to think how this whole thing works together. It might be when someone opt’s in the first time they go through this ascension funnel, that all those offers will be open to them, open and close, like in Evergreen format. And after that they’ll bump over to a monetization funnel. Our longer term email sequences that then they’ll be on when we open and close them each month. I’m not positive on that, still figuring out the details. But it’s fun to think through it. Anyway, that’s the game plan. So those are some of the fun things I’ve learned and been thinking about while I’ve been here having some fun in Kauai on my 15 year anniversary. I hope that gives you guys some ideas and things to think about. So kind of to recap the important things. Number one is focusing on consistently bringing new blood into your business. 50,000 letters a week rule, should we call it that? 50,000 letters a week rule, consistently bringing new blood in. I remember Garret White at the last Funnel Hacking Live talked about people that make it rain, the rainmakers are the ones who dominate this world and this business. You gotta be focusing on making it rain. If you want to learn how to make it rain, right now the program is closed, but depending on when you’re listening it might be open, is our Fill Your Funnel course. Fill Your Funnel is all about how to make it rain, how to get new customers into your funnels. So that’s number one. Number is then after they come in, what’s the monetization?  So maybe number two is the ascension funnel, which is for me it’s ignite your funnel, which takes them through our offers in chronological order of when I want them to see things, opening and closing them in Evergreen format. And at the end of that, then put them into our monetization team, monetization funnels, which then would be taking our core six offers and opening and closing them twice a year. That’s going to be the business. That gets me really excited. Really, really excited. So anyway, that’s the game plan guys. I’m glad I had a chance to talk this out with you guys, it’s making it clearer and clearer in my mind. I hope you guys something of value out of that too. But like I said, I don’t just talk about this stuff, I practice what I preach so you will see me implementing these things in the very near future. Hopefully you guys will see them and enjoy them and model and funnel hack them for what you guys are doing because I know this stuff is going to be amazing. So that’s all I got you guys. Anyway, here’s one last view. Here’s the beach house we’ve been staying in. It’s an AirBNB, we were going to get a hotel and we looked at AirBNB and we found this. AirBNB or BRB, I can’t remember which one. It’s like 5000 square feet, my wife and I are up here and Brent and Amber are over here. There’s all this open space and there’s even like huge guest house over here that we got massages in the other day. It’s crazy. We’re literally, this is our beach. It’s just ours. And it’s crazy. I was flying the quad copter today, I learned how to finally fly the quad copter. I took it out over everything. So if you’re watching Funnel Hacker TV, which hopefully you are, you’ll have a chance to see above this place and beyond, it’s insane. It’s probably a little expensive, but for your 15th anniversary you go all out. Look at that, that’s our beach. We rented these paddle boards too, I guess if you’re listening on the podcast you can’t see this. But a couple of cool things also, just so you guys know. This is obviously on the audio podcast, which right now as of today, we’re number 5 in the business category, which is awesome. We’re still killing it there, we just also released this as a video podcast, if you go to iTunes at the very top there’s audio podcasts, you can switch to video podcast. We also have Marketing Secrets as a video podcast now too. So if you want to watch the videos, or if you want to watch the videos you can go to marketingsecrets.com and they’re all listed there along with the transcripts, see if you want to listen to what I’m saying and read along. The transcripts are at marketingsecrets.com as well. With that said, I would love it if you guys would give me a review and a rating over on iTunes. Like I said, we’re number 5 in the business category, the other guys above me still have more ratings, it’s not fair. I’m killing myself giving you guys the best stuff I got, I need some more ratings. So if you can take 5 seconds out of your busy day, stop everything, go over there, leave a rating and review, tell me what you think about Marketing Secrets, let the world know, that’d be awesome. And then the other thing is please subscribe to the video podcast as well. Feel free to watch the videos there if you want, that way you can see some of the beautiful scenery behind me. Yeah, that’s all I got you guys. Thanks again for listening, have an amazing day and we’ll see you guys soon. We’ll be back in Boise next week, back to a normal schedule. I got some cool stuff I want to publish and share with you guys. I gotta finish my anniversary and then get back to you guys soon. Appreciate you all, see you guys soon. Bye.

In 2000 Bill Munn was soaring financially. But he was not focused on what he was best at. So Bill turned his business around and he lost of lot of clients and a lot of savings. Just before he got to the brink things started taking off. Listen to Bill share his story of how he got over this hump.

Two Guys and a Guest! Mac and Kevin welcome Bill to the podcast this week, as he graciously clears up some confusion on the stock market. Did you leave last episode with lots of questions? Well so did we! So Bill to rescue, doubling down on his involvement with TGOTP from adman to advisor.

So Bill and Etchie continue their conversation about celebrities and their reputations vs. how good they are at their job.  After all, if you could only have a job if you weren't an asshole, there would be a hell of a lot more homeless people.

New post from The eCommerceFuel Blog: Bill and Andrew pull out their crystal balls to peer into the future and predict how technology will usher in massive shifts in the economy. These shifts may be 5 - 20 or more years away, but they can potentially have a huge impact on your business. From self-driving cars to negative interest rates, large pools of employment sectors could face the chopping block as our society embraces the next generation of technological advances. Tune in to join the conversation so you can prepare your business for a future that may already be upon us in this two part series. Subscribe:  iTunes | Stitcher (With your host Andrew Youderian of eCommerceFuel.com and Bill D'Alessandro of Rebel CEO.) Andrew: Welcome to the eCommerceFuel podcast, the show dedicated to helping high six and seven-figure entrepreneurs build amazing online companies and incredible lives. I'm your host and fellow ecommerce entrepreneur, Andrew Youderian. Hey guys, it's Andrew here and welcome to the eCommerceFuel podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in today's episode. Today on the show, gonna be...do something a little bit different. Obviously, we focus on ecommerce and business here but from time to time, like to mix things up, and want to talk about massive world shifting changes headed your way from kind of a macrolevel, both because it's an interesting to talk about and also potentially because, you know, could have an impact on your business. So here to kinda peer into the crystal ball with me, mister Bill D'Alessandro. Bill, how you doing buddy? Bill: I'm doing very well and I did bring my crystal ball today. I'm excited. Andrew: Oh yeah, you got one of those crystal ball, or are we talking, like, the magic eight ball you shake and look into it? Bill: Yup, yup, exactly. After every question you ask me, I'm just gonna tell you what the eight ball says. Andrew: It's interesting, the original notes that we put together here, we had to par down because we had so many different things that we're like, "This is gonna be, like, an hour and a half discussion." Not that that necessarily means that we'd be any more accurate. I don't know, I think it's pretty safe to say, maybe everyone throughout history's already said this, but I feel like there's like a lotta change on the horizon. Bill: I think there is too and the topics you have picked for us today are all topics upon which I have very strong opinions. So this should be a good, good episode. Andrew: And there's a couple that I thought we'd be in agreement on and was not the case. So hopefully we can keep it civil for people, what do you think? Bill: I think we can try, yes. We're just screaming at each other by the end. Robots Will Run the World Andrew: Yeah. All right, let's dive into it. So Bill, the first prediction that we have, thing that's coming, and I'm gonna break these down into things that are coming and things that are disappearing in terms of massive shifts and kinda the world in general. And the first one is a pretty broad category and it encompassed a lot things that I thought about, that you thought about, and we kinda talked about it. It's really what I'm gonna call it, the robot in AI revolution in terms of just robots, but smart computers, so much automation. Automation has been a big part of the last, you know, 100 years one way or another, but just the rate at which it's gonna accelerate, the rate at which it's going to really make a lot of jobs and occupations that we have now completely unfeasible. It's got some really huge implications on in terms of just the convenience side of things, the efficiency side, but also in terms of social aspects of what do you do in a world where, you know, a good percentage of people, they don't have the skills to be meaningfully employed. So that's kind of a high level thing, a lot that we can unpack about that,

New post from The eCommerceFuel Blog: Knowing how to read a financial statement and a few other basics of accounting is vital in an eCommerce business. Without basic knowledge of accounting, you may think you're raking in the cash when you're actually in the red. We're covering everything from the basics of reading an income statement to the ins and outs of your store revenue. Subscribe:  iTunes | Stitcher (Wth your host Andrew Youderian of eCommerceFuel.com and Bill D'Alessandro of RebelCEO.com) Andrew: Welcome to the eCommerceFuel Podcast, the show dedicated to helping high six and seven figure entrepreneurs build amazing online companies and incredible lives. I'm your host and fellow eCommerce entrepreneur Andrew Youderian. Hey guys, it's Andrew here and welcome to the eCommerceFuel Podcast, thanks so much for tuning in today. Today on the show, extremely gripping topic we've been wanting to cover for a long time. The absolute bare minimum you need to know about accounting. And joining me, an ex-finance guy who is the perfect man to geek out about this. Bill, I'm sorry we don't have whiskey this time to chat but hopefully you'll still stick around until the end of the episode. Bill: I really should have put that in my contract, shouldn't I have? Andrew: Top shelf, $400 a bottle whiskey otherwise I'm not coming back to the show. Bill: That's right, I need whiskey or we'll not record this stuff. I won't hang out with you if we don't have any whiskey. Andrew: To keep things interesting without the whiskey and also, let's be honest, accounting unless you're Bill may not be the world's sexiest topic, we've inserted a couple fun little secondary scenes shall we say throughout the episode. You'll have to listen real carefully to hear them but yeah, just keep your ears perked for those. And Bill, should we get into it? Bill: Yeah, we should get into it. We should call this episode "Front Lines Accounting." The Function of Your Income Statement Andrew: "Front Lines Accounting," I love it, I love it. So Bill there's really three crucial financial statements that you need to know. The income statement, the balance sheet and the cash flow statement. And we're going to tackle each of those individually and we'll go ahead and start with the income statement. So Bill, how do you describe the income statement in a nutshell? What is its function and how do you look at it? Bill: The easy way to think about an income statement really is, this is the amount of money that your business made over a certain period. Most income statements you'll see are kind of yearly or monthly. And you in theory could do a daily income statement but I don't think it would be very instructive. So most people will do monthly, will do an income statement and it will show a total for the year and then broken down by month. At the top you'll see revenue and then you will subtract from revenue your cost of goods sold, which is basically the amount of money it cost you to make that revenue. Then you'll have a gross margin, and that's basically the amount of money you have after selling your stuff, the amount of money you have available to use to pay overhead. And then you'll have a section called expenses or sometimes you'll see it called SGNA or selling general and administrative expenses and those are all the overhead expenses of your business, salaries, rent, your subscription to the eCommerce Fuel private members forum, all sorts of things like that go in the SGNA expenses section and then at the bottom you have a number called net income, also or hopefully known as profit and not loss. Andrew: Yeah and it's kind of important to clarify that revenue is equal to sales, revenue is at the very top. It's not how much you make, it's just the gross amount of money you collect from your customers before you pay any expenses. Sometimes you might hear that called top line,

In this episode, I jump on the phone with Bill Caskey, a fellow subscriber and master of the mindset it takes to be able to sell your product or service. We discuss the various roadblocks most people make for themselves, making it harder to sell. We also discuss the mental shift you must make to push yourself forward in your business, regardless of where you're at now. It was a fantastic, can't-miss episode to get your mind right to take yourself to the next level, whatever that level might be! Make sure to SHARE this podcast/episode with your friends, then leave us a REVIEW and get my "101 Conversion Tips" Cheat Sheet... free! Send an email to support@jeremyreeves.com with the name on your review.   Resources Mentioned BillCaskey.com BillCaskey.com/2x Want To Work With Me? Visit http://www.JeremyReeves.com or email me at Jeremy@JeremyReeves.com Enjoy! Transcript Jeremy Reeves: Hey guys and girls, this is Jeremy Reeves with another episode of the sales funnel mastery podcast and today I have a very special guest on the line, his name is Bill Caskey. We are going to talk about something pretty cool today. Bill is -- you can find him at billcaskey.com by the way. He is a sales and leadership trainer but the thing that I like about him is -- it is not the way that he teaches is not just about actually selling tactics. If you remember I had Butch Bellah a couple of months ago and we talked about, you know, actual selling tactics to help you sell, you know, better in your funnel. BillCaskey.com, by the way. He is a sales and leadership trainer but the thing that I like about him is -- it is not the way that he teaches is not just about actually selling tactics. If you remember I had Butch Bellah a couple of months ago and we talked about, you know, actual selling tactics to help you sell, you know, better in your funnel. So he goes beyond that and it is not just, you know, asking questions and things like that, you know, all the various selling tactics, but also in things like the mindset and positioning so that you do not have to struggle when you are selling, you know, it is kind of like, you know, pushing an uphill battle. So that is what we are going to talk about today. So real quick introduction, you know, again, his name is Bill Caskey, he is a sales leadership trainer. He also has a podcast which by the way, I highly recommend listening to. It is called the Advance Selling Podcast and he also has a couple of books out -- One is the Same Game New Rules; The Sales Playbook; Email It; and Rewire The Sales Mind, which that last one, I think, I might check out, because, you know, the mindset is so important and you know, one thing that I have realized is, as my own mindset expands, there is always room to grow, you know, you go from like level 1 to 3 and then all of the sudden when you are at 3, you realized that there is like a billion other levels above that. So there is always ways to go. So Bill, I want you to say Hi. Bill Caskey: Hey Jeremy, I appreciate you and the work you do. I have listened to your podcast and I am really looking forward to this. You have had some great guest on, I hope I can -- I hope I can measure up at least partially. Jeremy Reeves: Sounds good, yeah, I am sure you will. Yeah, so I mean, you know, tell everyone a little bit, you know, anything that I missed or, you know, kind of jut give a little, you know, quick little brief intro of yourself, anything that you want everybody to know before you jump in. Bill Caskey: Yeah, well, I am a sales coach and trainer and I do sales -- work with sales people, sales teams, leadership teams and I have done that for about 25 years. I think the best way to kind of kick things off though is to tell you a very quick story, I will try to keep it quick, and that is, you know, we all arrive at our professions in a variety of different ways and what is really interesting sometimes is you look back and say, what were some defining events in our lives that caused us to be who we are, and where we are today. And I am sure if I were to inquire there is probably some things in your past, maybe something you are not so proud of, some things you are very proud of, but we are all on the journey, you know, we are all on the pass somewhere. When I was on 8th grade, I live in Indiana, which is in the U.S. of course, and it is a hot bed of basketball, we love our basketball here, we always have, and I grew up with the ball in my hand. I was always playing, I was just playing summer, winter, or fall all year round and I do not know how good of a basketball player I was but I love the game. When I was on 8th grade, it was -- in 7th grade, we had 2 teams. We had an A and a B team, on 8th grade, it went down to 1 team for some reason. So I was pretty sure I was going to make to team and it was that day that the coach post the roster up outside his office. I do not know if you ever were an athletic, probably it is all digital today, but back then there was actually an 8.5 by 11 sheet of paper with everybody’s name on it of who is going to make to the team that year and we had a couple of weeks of practice. So I ran into the coach’s office down the hall and I was examining the list wondering not whether I made it, but who else made it besides me and lo and behold, guess whose name was not on that list, Bill Caskey. I had been cut from my 8th grade basketball team in a game that I just -- It was what defined me, I just love the game. And that was one of those moments that we have all had where it is almost like somebody sticks their finger in your chest and says, hey, you are just not good enough. You are insufficient, you are an adequate and when I tell the story people say, are you over it yet, 50 years later, yeah. I am over it but I do think that it was a defining moment because it kind of set the stage for this idea and I talked about this today that we kind of live in a pick me society, we are all always looking to be selected, to be picked that starts in elementary school it continues through sports, clubs. We are always looking to be on the team or to get selected. I think when -- when there is always so many slots on the team you cannot take everybody, but unfortunately, I think we take the same attitude toward life when we get in the college, we are hoping we get accepted, we are hoping we get the job after college, we are hoping we get the promotion if you are in sales on any kind of performance role, you are hoping that you achieve at a certain level, you are hoping to get the customer and over time I found that that is kind of a losing proposition. That is not really the right way to think and yet it is so ingrained that our business culture and I hear sales people all the time I go to Starbucks and I will sometimes sit next to somebody cause the tables are so close, I am really not trying to snoop, I just -- I cannot help it. Then I hear sales people pleading and hopeful and desperate and anxious and it is just -- it is so off-putting isn’t it. I mean it just so, it is so weak and wobbly. And so over the last 25 years, I have made a mission in my life in the training that I do is to stop that. Is to teach people how not to be that way because I do not think it is helpful. I do not think customers buy from us we are needy, I think it is the opposite, I think people buy from other people who they feel like can bring value. And so over the last 25 years I have created a business and a coaching programs, programs and program about how do you position yourself in a way that you are not, you are not being selected by them, you are selecting them. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, I love that, I love that you put that, you know, you are selecting them and it is so, you know, it is so important, you know, we will get into -- we will talk about little bit about positioning, you know, and that is really part of positioning, is positioning you as the, you know, the price, so to speak versus the, you know, finding the client being -- oh my God, I cannot wait to work with them, oh it is going to be so exciting, you know, versus them looking at you and saying, oh my God I cannot wait to work without Bill, it is going to be exciting, you know. Bill Caskey: Exactly, exactly. And it is sounds easy doesn’t it, I am in the surface it sounds well, I just go, I will just go say the things I need to say to get them to want me more. Well, we all know how that works in dating and in life, it does not work very well. So I am convinced it is more than just what you say, it’s who you are and how you are and how you think and I know we will get into a little bit more of that, but I think -- we all say, oh that is great, when I can say this, the customer will want me, but unfortunately it does not work that easily. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, so and that is actually a good starting point, you know. What are some of the things that, that you think and I know that -- I mean this topic alone is, you know, worthy of probably not only a podcast but a book you know. What are some of the things that you think people have to do and say and think to start shifting into that mindset of you know, them being the price versus their customer or client being you know, the price for them. Bill Caskey: Yeah, well there is -- I actually published a -- and your listeners are welcome to go get it if they want. We are not going to have time probably to talk about all 10 but the what I called the 2 X principles and that the idea there is that if you are going to double and it could be your income, it could be your business, but let us just say you want to double your results, you want to profoundly improve your results, then these principles will help you to shift that mindset. Let me go ahead and give you the email or the address. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, go ahead. Bill Caskey: Okay, BillCaskey.com/2x and you can get a copy of this but it is just 10 things and there is a couple of paragraphs underneath each one. I would start with the first one that I think is probably the most important and that is, you need to have, we need to have an attitude of detachment. Sometimes we get so attached to the outcome that we lose our way and we start vaulting, we start jumping ahead and we got to understand the customer and sales especially, but in leadership too. The other person is always on the journey and they are on their journey, you are on your journey. You are usually hoping to influence their journey but you have to understand that the more attached you are, the more you want what you want the less they are going to get what they want or even feel like you care about what they want. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. Bill Caskey: So principle number 1 is the idea of detachment. It is the idea that I am not going to be disengaged. I am going to be fully engaged. I am going to care about the customer’s problems but the instant I become more interested in the sale than they are and getting their problem solved is when I have jumped the shark, I am out of control and so -- we can talk more about that but the first one is just a healthy dose of detachment. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, I love that you know, and I thought a lot of you know, like (inaudible 9:34.8) stuff like you know, that talks a lot about detachment you know, and it is one of -- not only like if you learn detachment, that is one of those things that it helps kind of like every area of your life because you do not get -- you know, I have been a lot of situations and not really anymore because I have learned to be kind of detached from you know, from things like that, but I remember you know, years ago when that was like a problem you know, I would actually get upset you know, and it ruins your day. It is kind of like you know, downward spiral where you have you know, let us say, you have this client and you think they are going to move forward and then for some reason they just never get you know, they just disappear which you know, I am sure anybody who has ever work to the client has had that happened you know, many many clients. What happens is, you know, you are (inaudible 10:25.3) because it is like, oh, that is going to happen you know, that not, that might happen, but that is going to happen and then when it does not happen, it completely throws you off your game. So then depending on how long you can kind of rebound it throws you off your game for that long you know, it might be 2, 3, 4, or 5 you know, a week, a month, whatever it is and you are in that kind of negative state and then you are stressed, you cannot think properly so then you are losing other sales and it is like, it is just a very, very bad situation to be. Bill Caskey: It is a bad spiral, yeah, it is. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah, it really is. Bill Caskey: You know, even in the sales process itself or when you are engage with this person that you are attempting to influence or convince is -- it is not helpful, it is not helpful for you -- you know, a lot of times, I will say to a person you know, tell me about your vision on the customer, well I really want to help them, I really want -- I want to help them solve a problem, I am really committed to solving problems and then I hear them 5 minutes later when they are talking about a deal that is not closing and it gets away from that more toward well. What do I need to do to get this deal and I say, what if, what if you are helping your customer by walking away, what if you are helping your customer by not selling them, maybe there is a better alternative well that is impossible, it is impossible, we have the best -- well then you really do not care about your customer do you. You say that, you know, you voice that from the mountain top it really what it gets down to is nah, you really are more interested in you. It is hard, I mean this whole detachment thing. We have grown up for 40 or 50 years in this world of we want to control the outcomes, and I got news for you. You are not in control of the outcomes. Yiddish, the Jewish folks, there is a yiddish thing that says, we plan God laughs. Jeremy Reeves: That is a good one, I like that. Bill Caskey: And it is that same thing you know, we make the plan, we want this customer, we want them really bad and sometimes it is not to be, but I think even in the process, the more attached you are, the more you will drive people away from you. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. You know, there is something about -- even if you think about relationship you know, imagine walking up to a girl in a bar or if you are girl you know, walking up t a guy whatever and you are just that like needy you now, you like have to sit next to them, you get upset if they like walk away or whatever you know, versus the -- you know, the guy that goes and he is trying to you know, find a girl you know, and he is like kind of like does that hard to get thing you know, I am sure a lot of guys are familiar with the girls being hard to get, that is why you get so attached to the girls because they are detached from you You know, it is kind of the same thing like when you are a client, if you are trying to -- if you are being that needy person, well every time they feel that neediness, they just get -- it is like a magnet you know, you are kind of getting pushed away from them versus you know, versus if you say like, if they are like, oh hey you know, we are just not ready right now, and you are like, oh that is fine you know, just get back in touch whenever you are ready or whatever. Here are the couple of things you can do in the meantime you know, to keep you know, to keep -- or whatever. It is like, oh wow, you know, this guy really like actually cares about me you know, I am not even giving him money, but he is still trying to help you know, I know I have personally seen that situation come back and you know, have a positive outcome, I mean you know, I do not know how many times but a lot of times. It is the norm you know, so yeah, I mean I love that. Bill Caskey: Yeah, the problem a lot of times too is that we can have that healthy detachment, I say healthy because you do not want -- I do not want to play tricks on people. I am not trying to -- I am not trying to be somebody I am not that is why I like the inner game issues because if you really are detached, you do not have to play games with anybody. You just show up in this healthy form of detachment, but a lot of times we say that, but the further into the sale cycle we go, then we get more attach, that attachment starts growing and we have invested time and money and resources and effort and then at the 11th hour they say no, like you said earlier, that is when we come off the rail. But if you are detached all the way through and I have got a client who starts every meeting and he is in a fairly long selling cycle probably 7 or 8 sales calls calls. He will say at the beginning of each call, look you know, I realized we are 4 calls in and we are getting down the business here. There is a lot of good things happening, it feels good. If you are feeling -- if you ever feel in this process like it is not a fit, I want you to tell me, because I am not -- I do not want to be a pest. He rephrases it at the beginning of each call but it is the same kind of verbatim that he puts out there and he closes 80% of his business because by the time they are down to the 7th or 8th call they do not want to go anywhere, they do not want to start over with someone, but he has allowed them space to make a decision rather than him feeling like he has to coerce them into decision. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, I like that. I am actually going to use that. That is good because I have a lot of clients where you know, they are spending a lot of money on our services and things like that and for a lot of people like the timing has to be right and I get a lot of people where they like, hey you know, we are (inaudible 15:35.7) I will send a proposal and it is like, oh that sounds perfect you know, but let us you know, kind of get in touch whatever 2 months, 3 months, 6 months you know, a month, whatever it is. So I follow up with them, like just kind of, hey, how are things you know, anything I can help you whatever. But I really like, I really like that thing of saying like, hey you know, if I never pass just like you know, you can just tell me when you are ready, I like that. I do it -- you know, I follow up because I genuinely trying to like you know, if they have questions I can answer for them, that kind of thing. But I can actually like now, I am thinking about it, I can see that coming across, it is like, oh you know, here he is, emailing us again. So I am actually going to think about how I can kind of tweak that on my own you know, on my own follow up on people. Bill Caskey: Yeah, and I want to make sure that we are clear. I am not suggesting that after your call you wait, you sit back and wait for the customer to call you, that is not the point. It is the -- in the email that you send is a follow-up. Make sure that your tone is not one of attachments. So, like you just said, hey, it has been a couple of weeks since we spoke, I am interested in helping you. If it feels like it is right for you, but if not, I understand. Give me a call sometime, let’s reconnect. But not, hey, you know, price goes up at the end of the month and I need the business and my kids need shoes and I know we say, oh, I would never say that. We do not say that, but we say things like that. We do not realize it. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, it is not quite as obvious, but they still feel the same, do they still know that -- Bill Caskey: They do. Jeremy Reeves: Kind of implying that you know, there is definitely an energy that comes along with it that you pick up on. Bill Caskey: So the second -- so that is the first principle is detachment and does it take awhile to adopt, yes, it is constant work, but it will make you a lot of money and it is the core to the 2xing your business and it sounds kind of intuitive, you weigh 2 extra businesses as to not care. Well, I am not saying don’t care, I am saying care less than they do about getting their problem solve. That is really the -- that is really the metric you have to go by. The second element of this, these principles is what I call high intent. High intent or high intention is where your intention is about helping them solve the problem they have even if that means you are not involve in the solution which is kind of a side note to detachment, but I have got to make sure that my intention from the time I feel the call to the time I show up, to the time we did a proposal. My intention is totally focused on them, their problem, their dreams, their achievement and that becomes the intent, low intent, is where it’s all about me. Again, this slips, people can have high intent the first call and then as they go through the process that intent starts to lower and we started to think, well, geez, what is this going to mean to me, and how can I get this off to street. And then you go back to your sales manager and say, hey, we are -- I would say, it is about a 60% and he is like well, what do you need to do to get it to 90% you know, come on, let’s go. We need this in, you know, we got to -- we got numbers to meet, the board is frustrated, we are not making the numbers. And then all of the sudden what do you do. You have no way of taking that in without giving it back to the customer. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. Bill Caskey: So we as sales professionals in business, whatever part of business you are in, we need to take that information but we cannot pass it on to our target audience because it is just not helpful. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah and I love that, and I have said before like, if you are not willing to have a client that you can help, but someone else can help better, if you are not willing to refer that person then your mindset is just not in the right place. Bill Caskey: That is exactly right. Jeremy Reeves: And I even had situations I mean you know, if anybody that has got in touch with me you know that like, I do not even take on projects unless I feel that, number 1, I can definitely help you and number 2, I am definitely the best person to help you. There has been a lot of cases where I would say like, hey, you know, I might not be the right fit just because a lot of times it is not price they got, I mean I have turned away you know, 5 figure projects because I did not have much experience in that area or I did not have passion for it. You know, a lot of people come with like network marketing type of stuff and I am just not really into that anymore, I used to be, but I mean that was you know, a long time ago but you know, I just do not really have a passion for that anymore so anybody that comes usually in that you know, in that kind of industry and there is a couple of them like this or even something like that is you know, I just do not have passion for it. I would not want to write about it. I always you know, refer them and say, hey, look you know, I could probably help you but it would not be anywhere near my best work, you know, I would not really feel comfortable taking on and I have had a lot of cases where they really appreciate to that and then they actually refer people to me you know. That has happened quite a bit. So you know, it always comes back to you, plus it makes you feel good that you are actually being you know, a genuinely, like authentic good person you know, that you are not just taking it for your own game but you are actually doing it because you have, you know, your clients and your customers in mind. Bill Caskey: Exactly. There is a quote that I like that is, who you are speaks so loudly, I cannot hear what you say. Who you are speaks so loudly I cannot -- in what you are saying I think that is the quote that follows intent is if you are intention is low, you can say, you can say that my intent is to help you, but if everything that you -- who you are is reeking of desperation, they are not hearing of what you say. They only determining how you are and who you are in that process. So intent is really important and here is a tip for your listeners if you want one. Sometimes it is good just to give voice to that by saying to the person you are with or talking to, you know, my intent Mr. prospect is to discuss this a little bit, find out what you are interested in, find out what are some of the issues throughout that you are struggling with. At the end, we can decide if it make sense to go further, if it make sense to abort or just -- or end it or we can decide what would the next logical step would be. When you are declaring that, A. It is good to -- it is good for the customer to hear, but B. It is good for you to reinforce that in your own mind, because we will remember things we say, and if you say it often enough, it will become part of you. So that is just a little verbatim tip that your people, your listeners can use when they are in this situations be at negotiation, be at sales, be at dating whatever. Is just to clear your intent verbally, it really helps. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, I like that, I like that. So one thing that I want to kind of -- I want to kind of switch a little bit to talk about is, you know, I talked to a lot of people that they are afraid to -- I am trying to think how to say this and it is -- you know, it kind of wraps around mindset you know, they are afraid to really put themselves out there and take a risk, you know what I mean like, they are playing, playing too simple. So just for example, someone got in touch yesterday and he really never had this mindset, it was more of that, he just was not there yet because he is working on other thing, but it just (inaudible 22:42.8) to what I was thinking about. So he had a frontend product that was $47 and then he had I think it was like a $147 upsale and then a continuity program for, I forgot what it was, like $15 a month. And one of the first things that I said you know, because he is doing well and he came to me and he was like, hey, you know, how do we kind of take this to the next level you know. And I said, well, what can you sell like -- what is something big that you can really help people with and deliver such you know, tremendous value that it does not just like kind of help their lives but transforms their life, you know what I mean, and basically coming out with a high end offer, you know, and we talked about it, I won’t go to the details what we come up with, but you know, we came up with something that is going to be somewhere in the range like a $1000 to $1500, whereas before, the highest price was $150. Like what do you think -- what do you think, because I see this thing come up a lot where people they just want to sell like low price products, they are kind of, you know, the main objection is, oh well you know, people are never going to pay you that money and my kind of objection to that objection is how do you make your value, how do you create more value so that they are going to pay it, you know what I mean, rather than saying, oh they won’t pay that, I always say, alright. Pick a price, it does not even matter what price, just pick. It could be five hundred, five thousand, a hundred thousand, a million dollars. I mean, what do you have to do either mentally you know, in your courses, how you deliver whatever it is -- what do you have to do to make the value you know, 5 to 10 times more than that price you know, and that is kind of the question that I post to people. So like, you know, from your experience, because this comes back to inner game really. Bill Caskey: It does, it does. Jeremy Reeves: Because most people you have to you know, it is a mindset you know, what your worth is. I mean, do you think that is some type of like inner you know, self worth like kind of conditioning you know issue or what are your thoughts on that. Bill Caskey: Yeah, it is self worth and I think about it in terms of value. So you have a value that you want to communicate and demonstrate to the world and often I do not think we think through that value very well. I think we launch at the first jumping off point and we say that is $97 ebook or $97 course. We do not really go deep and say, how can I transform and you said the word, how can I transform someone, how can I really change their life. Well, that is not the $97 course, that is probably a much higher end coaching training, whatever it is, but we do not give that -- I love Cal Newport, he has been on a couple of podcast. He wrote a book called, So Good They Can’t Ignore You. And he has a brand new book called, Deep Work, and deep work is about our total reluctance to do anything deep in terms of focus and concentration and we get so distracted by email and text and all that stuff. We cannot sit in a room. Most of us cannot sit in the room for 2 hours and map that out and yet that is exactly what you are describing is if somebody where to hand you $20,000 Mr. Prospect, what would you need to create for you to be happy with it and then to be ecstatic about paying $20,000 and it takes, it takes rolling up your sleeves and saying okay, how would we create something and yet we are reluctant to do that because like you say, our self concept jumps to that endgame (inaudible 26:15.0) who is going to pay that. I am having trouble selling $97 courses who is going to pay $10 grand for me to show up for 4 hours. Well, people will but not if you do not think, not if you do not believe in it and you can call a self or self concept but it is really a self believe. Do I have enough belief in the value of my product and I am going to go little side here. A lot of times we have belief in our product because of what its price at. We do not have belief at our product based on what it could be valued at. We get price and value all mixed up and I had a client here about 4 or 5 years ago, I went in and did -- it was an accounting firm. Accounting firms do not usually buy sales training and business development training. These guys did and every month they would fight me on -- it was a 1 year contract, so I was not going to change the price, but at the end of the first year, they have generated like 3 million dollars with the new clients and we came up for negotiation and he said, you know, Bill, we are really happy with the work, but we are going to have to -- we are going to have to cut back, and I said, why is that, because well you know, I just think this amount of money per month is crazy, and I said, okay compared to what, what do you comparing it to, well, you know, we have accounting trainers in and they do not charge nearly this much, I said look, I think we should end it and here is why. I just had delivered 3 million dollars on paper we could measure it, 3 million dollars of gross revenue at a 45% margin. I have delivered a million plus to you and you are fighting me for a thousand, I mean it was five thousand a month or something, he wants to lower it to 4. You are fighting me for $12,000. I said, obviously, you do not see the value, obviously, I have done a crappy job of demonstrating the value even though the numbers are there. I think we should just part ways, I love your guys but this is just not a fit anymore. And he looked, he kind of had his glasses on and he looked up from his page and he just started smiling and he goes, good answer. He goes, let us keep going then, but I do not like the price. Well, that is okay, you cannot like it, but you got to like the million and a half I put to your bottom line. You got to like that John. Yeah, you are right, I do like that. But I think that is the idea of what do you value your services at and that is an easy one because he was paying me $60 grand for you know, a million and a half dollars of profit, yeah it is easy, but a lot of times we do not have -- it is not quite that juxtapose, it is not that easy to assemble, but still, I think we need to be really thorough and one of the principles believe it or not, be thorough about analyzing your value and look back to where you have been valuable to people. If you do not believe it, you cannot get somebody else to believe it, you just cannot. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and I just took, I just took a personality -- it is called strengths finder and it is funny you know, it is like $15, you can go out and buy you know, $15 book and it kind of tells you, because it is, it is I am in a little bit of period of you know, reflection and inflection whatever do you want to call it, figuring out that kind of stuff because I am kind of taking my own game to it, you know, to a whole another level. And I tend to do that about once a year, something shifts you know, like every -- some reason but -- Bill Caskey: Jeremy, you know that some people go through life, I never do that. It goes through 40 years of work and they never really sit back and say okay, I am earning and it is not always about earning isn’t it. I mean it is about a lot of things, but I am earning this amount of money and what do I need to do from a skills standpoint to bump that up or reinvent myself or to be, to find rare skills that nobody else has, but instead we go home or we watch Desperate Housewives and we watch Downtown Abbey and we watch the NBA game and another night 4 hours in front of the TV and we have not done, we have not done a crap for helping our skills. So anyway, I got off on a little tangent there. Jeremy Reeves: Oh no, it is okay. Yeah, I mean, -- you know what, one way to force yourself to do this is, if you are not going, if you are not waking up every day and you are a little bit scared about what is going to happen for your future not in terms of like scares and like, you know, oh my God, I do not know how to, going to pay my rent. Scares in, oh my God, I am coming out with this new program, this new whatever and I am not 100% sure I can live up to it you know like, I mean, I feel like you should be a little bit scare like pushing yourself outside your comfort zone. Bill Caskey: Absolutely. Jeremy Reeves: I feel like if you are not doing that, if you are not like you know, because if you are 100% confident, I feel like you are not, you know, you are not pushing hard enough. That is one of the things that I always try to do is like, okay, how can we you know, what do I have to do that is going to like kind of just do like what if you know, what if we did and what if we did that and then when something comes up, and it is like, oh men, that is going to be tough. That is the one that you -- Bill Caskey: That is the one. You hit on it. That is exactly right. And that gets back to if I might do a call back as we do -- we do not do in the comedy world, but probably well does call back to detachment. What happens is we think of the idea and we say, oh men, wouldn’t be cool if I had this or did this and then we talk ourselves right out of it because we are too attached to a perfect outcome and what would you know is the outcome is never perfect. The outcome is always a work in progress. So yeah, boy, that $97 thing, I mean we had a radio show back in, I do not know, early 2000 before we had the advance selling podcast and it was on at 12 o’clock noon on Saturday, 5,000-watt station. Well, nobody was listening to that, I mean, nobody called in, but guess what, we did it for a year (inaudible 31:53.6) I did it and we cut our teeth and we got good chemistry and we got good broadcasting, we got good at working off of each other and it turned into a podcast a year later. Now, if we wouldn’t have that idea, that man, this radio show is going to generate a million dollars and it didn’t, we would abort it and we wouldn’t gone into podcasting, but I think you have to just try these things, recognizing and being detach from the outcome and when you are detached, you will bring your whole self to the world everyday because you are not worried about what people think, how much I am earning, that kind of thing. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. You know, a lot of people -- if you really sit down and think okay, like you know, if you are getting -- if you are going to try something were like, you have conceivably to scare the hell out of yourself and you are like, oh my God, like I do not even know if I can handle this. Just sit down and think, okay, what is the best possible outcome here and what is the absolute worst possible outcome and usually the best possible outcome is way above whatever you have now and usually the worst possible outcome isn’t that bad you know, it is like, oh you now -- like let us just say for example, I was going to come out with a new, I do not know, like a new service or something and it bond, right. Well then, I mean the worst possible outcome is you, you know, you embarrassed yourself a little bit, you came up with something that nobody really went for, you know, (inaudible 33:13.6) I mean, do you think people are really going to remember that a year from now, no. They are not going to -- Bill Caskey: You would not even -- Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. You probably won’t and even you know, you look at it and you are like, alright, well you know, someone like calls you out, and they like, oh you failed, and they are like making fun at you. I mean all you have to say is look, I tried, you know, what did you do. You know what I mean. You know, I would, you know, work a couple of hours a night putting this thing together, launch if it failed, well guess what, you know, I already tried the next thing, that failed, I already tried the next thing and I made you know, brand new 7-figure business. What did you do at that time. Bill Caskey: But don’t you think that is a function, a little bit of, I do not know, I have never heard it, I am just (inaudible 33:52.6) I have never said it, but this idea of self commitment, am I really committed to myself or am I committed to this pie in the sky result, but I am not committed to the work and the work ethic that is going to take to realize it. I think we say and I said this earlier, I hear this a lot is, you know, I said to a sales person, you know what, what are you committed to in 2016, well, I am committed, you know 30% increase in sales. Okay, what do you committed to doing to make that happen. Well, I just got to go and make more calls. Well, okay, but what else, are you committed to link in or are you committed to blogging. What if you did a video series for prospects who needed to know (inaudible 34:31.8). You have so much knowledge, why don’t you start to get that out there. Wehh, it is a lot of work, okay. So you are not truly committed to that because if you believe that a video service or a podcast or a blog or an article or something, what help you get there, you do it but you are not committed to it. You are not even committed to trying it and so I think a lot of these gets back to we are committed to the results but we are not truly committed to the actions required to get the results. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. I like that. You know, and I think -- I think a lot of people, they kind of suffer from that and that is why, see I talk to a lot of people and there are so many opportunities and you know, I look at it, you now, I am not just saying just me but like I mean anybody else looks at it that has kind of a mindset that is bigger and it is like, why are you doing this, you know, why aren’t you doing this, it is like so simple. It is more of a function of getting them to believe themselves that they can do it, you know, that they can add a new program, a new service, a new product whatever it is, you know, work hard (inaudible 35:32.8) you know, whatever the case is. Bill Caskey: I had a guy in my office yesterday who came in for a coaching session. I usually do not do one off coaching but he was right around the corner and he kind of pleaded with me to do it. So we did a little 2-hour coaching and he had his whole -- he does whole marketing plan laid out, and it was really well done, I mean he just -- it was too much but he had it all laid out and he goes, what do you think of this, and I said, how long have you had this, and he said, oh, probably 6 months, and I said, what have you done, what of these things are in action right now, he said not one. I said, what are you waiting on, he goes, really, I am waiting on someone, like you, in this case, because he was paying me, but I am waiting for someone to say, this is good, go for it. And I think sometimes we get and I am guilty of this too Jeremy. I am guilty sometimes of talking myself into and out of something before I even test the market and sometimes I think you just need somebody else there whether it is a peer or a former coach, somebody who says, that looks awesome, go for it man, go for one of those things. But if we do not have that, and maybe that is a self worth thing, were reluctant, we play this reluctant performer and we are always coming up with these ideas, but we are never really putting them out into the world, that to me is probably more self worth than anything else. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah, I agree. You know, I kind of resonate with that because I am actually in when was that, I think the end of last week something like that. I talked to a prospect who I am going to do a funnel day with. It is basically like a full day consulting. So he is a partner in another business and then we got to talking and we realized that we should actually be partners in like a totally new you know, separate thing and you know, we went through and we came out and it is a lot of -- basically I am treading in a lot of uncharted territory, you know what I mean. It is basically a market that I am familiar with, but I have never like personally kind of gone after but it is a big opportunity and like and we are going to do like a whole weekend event and like you know, set up the whole big weekend live event kind of thing. Also, something I have never done. So it’s -- you know, I am kind of looking at myself going through the process and it really did like I actually kind of look for his validation too in most things you know. So it really is, but you know, and we kind of partner up on it because -- and this is also another lesson like, if you want to do -- if you have your mindset in a place where you want to do something but you do not know the logistics you know, of it, like so for example, setting up the whole like weekend, you know, I have never done, I have never set up live events that kind of thing but he has. So you know, if that is the case, if it is not a case (inaudible 38:27.3) mindset like allowing you to do it, you know, if you are not, like if you can get pass the part like the fear part, and you are just like, well I just -- I just do not know how to actually do that, then look for a partner you know, it does. And that is a good way to kind of overcome that and then be able to then move forward, you know. That is also another thing. Bill Caskey: Yeah, I like that, I like that and sometimes we are like I have told a lot of people about podcasting, I am a big fan of podcasting, I listen to yours, I listen to half dozen others. I have one, I am getting ready to launch another one called, The Bill Caskey Podcast, so I am really interested in this genre because I think it is just -- we are just on the forefront of it right now. But sometimes all half people who say, you know, I love your podcast, maybe I should do a podcast, and I said well, you know, let us talk about it. And what happens is unless you -- unless you tell someone how it works, there is always this feeling like it is too much. And I think what you are talking about too, let’s do a live event. I have never done live. Well, you would say to this person, well tell me how it works, you know, walk me through point by point, how would it work, how we get people in the room, how we would set up the room, how we charge, blah, blah, blah. And then when you -- when you talk about how it works, it demystifies it. So now it is not a vague, oh, I could never do that because I have not done it. Look at that list and say well, hell, I could do that in an afternoon, I mean, it is not that difficult. But if we do not go to how it works, then we are really letting our client or our partner down because the how it works is where it all happens isn’t it, I mean, it is not -- it is not the you know, I can think about having 500 people with $2000 each in a room but my mind first goes well I have never done that. I do not know how to do that, but if somebody were to come in and say, I am going to teach you how to do that in 30 minutes, I would probably say let’s do it. So how it works is a good question or how would it work. If I were to do this, what would it look like, how would it work is a really good question to get out of the inner resistance and get in to the tactics of how you could make it happen. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and you know, one of the things that I am implementing with my team once a quarter, I am going to get them together and we are going to do kind of what if day you know, what if this for the case, what if we did things like this, what if we shot for this revenue goal, what if we you know, just kind of like let your mind like nobody is ever -- there is no judgment, there is no like just kind of let your mind go. Bill Caskey: Yeah, it’s good. Jeremy Reeves: And you know, what if you know, what if we just, what if we triple the next 6 months you know, how would that look, how would we do that you know, what would we have to come out with, what would be have to you know, whatever or you know, what if we got you know, 10 more employees you know, in 2 months from now you know, whatever the case is. Bill Caskey: I like that. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and it kind of trains you and then if you with your team, number 1 you are teaching your team to kind of think bigger you know, which is always a good thing and then number 2, you are also kind of getting that validation from your team, you know what I mean. I think -- because I have done things like that in the past. What’s work the best for me is doing it like you know, because you are going to come up with things that are just completely off the wall and you have to make sure that you do the you know, here is what it would look like for every single one. Bill Caskey: Exactly, exactly. Jeremy Reeves: Because you can have something and it is like, okay, what if we quadruple next year you know, and then you are like, oh no, that cannot happen, you just pass up. Whereas if you say, well okay, how would we do that, okay well, you know, and let’s just say you are revenue, I do not know, just for simplicity sake, say a million dollars right, so you are making you know 80 grand a month. Well it is like okay, now then we have to make 320 grand a month you know, what if we charge -- what if we you know, did a $10,000 a month per client and we got 32 clients, okay, well how do you do that, where will we find them, what would we give them you know. And so it kind of like makes it more real. Bill Caskey: It does. That is exactly what it does. Hey, it is very inspiring for your team because so few companies do that were also rooted in the past and the present that were not looking for the future and when you start to do that with your team and everybody is going to recognize, cannot do it all, I would say you cannot do it all, but take the top 3 or 4 ideas, work through them. You know, you can get a lot done in 30 minutes, just work through it on the board and say okay, how would this happen and give yourself a time limit and by the end of 30 minutes, Dan Sullivan always talks about, he does a 5-minute filter, he puts his ideas through and he says, at the end of 5 minutes I am more excited then I will know it is something good. If it becomes a burden to me or if like I lose interest it is not worth it, and I will shove it and that is a good filter as well. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, I like that. By the way if anybody is not in strategic coach you definitely should be, it is incredible. Bill Caskey: I am not, but I listen, I listen to everything that Sullivan does. I bought all of his books and he is a real stud. He has got a great mindset. Jeremy Reeves: Yep, yep, absolutely. Alright, well you know, we covered a lot of stuff today and you know, we really got into a lot of the you know, like I mean which we kind of set out to do, the inner game and I think there was a lot of stuff talk about today that a lot of people do not really talk about you know, which is -- which is (inaudible 43:52.3) it was not like the same old stuff that you hear every day. Bill Caskey: Well can I give you one more before we leave. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. I was actually just going to ask you, you know, if there is one more thing you know, one more piece of advice, what would it be. Bill Caskey: I think the -- the one more is that we talked here a lot about mentality and mental state and inner game and all that shifting that has to happen, but I think the essence of all this is that, you are responsible for your thinking. Your boss is not, your spouse is not, you are responsible for it. So what you put into it is going to determine what you get out of it. So if you are struggling with detachment or you are struggling with you know, maybe your ego is out of control and you go into sales calls and you cannot stop talking, you have got to figure out how do I get my mind right and maybe it’s a morning exercises, maybe it’s meditation, maybe it’s additional reading, maybe it’s coaching, but you are responsible for your mental state and professionals in any business realized that your mentality is 90% of it. So, and yet, we do not work on our mentality very much. We work on our tactics and our physicality not our mentality and that is so important. So my last piece of advice would be to recognize that it is up to you. Nobody else can feed you stuff. You have got to figure out, okay, I have got an attachment problem, what am I going to do about it. It is your responsibility. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah, I love that. It is a good way to bring it home. Alright, so before we hop off, why don’t you tell everybody where they can find out more about you, where they can follow you, where they can get in touch to work with you and you know, whatever you want to tell them. Bill Caskey: I appreciate it Jeremy. Yeah, the best way to get a hold on me is go to BillCaskey.com it is my blog, there is a lot of free resources there. If you want to pick up a copy of this 2x principles were I go into a lot more detail about this 10 ideas, you can go to BillCaskey.com/2x and pop in your email address and you will get a PDF that has about 4 or 5 pages that kind of goes through these things and give you some ideas on how to implement them to. Jeremy Reeves: I love that, yeah, sounds good. As always, those links will be in the show notes. Bill Caskey: I appreciate it. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, sure, so thanks for coming in today. I really appreciate it, I know I personally got a lot out of it and I know our audience does well. So I appreciate it you coming on and we will talk to you soon. Bill Caskey: Okay, keep up the good work buddy. Jeremy Reeves: Alright, thanks.

It's Bonus Song Christmas! Wait, what? Didn't we say that the last Bonus Song Thursday was the last episode of the year? Well, it turns out Bill and Brian don't understand how calendars work and we didn't get our releases and recording days lined up so that we could talk about our listeners' suggestions for cool (and terrible) Christmas songs. So Bill took a little bit of time out of his Christmas Eve celebrations (which mostly consists of listening to "Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree" and dancing with his dog Murray's floppy basset hound ears) to read some emails and play a couple new tunes. Featured on this episode are songs by Ron Sexsmith, Over the Rhine, Marah, and Squeeze! Happy holidays, again!

It's Bonus Song Thursday on the Great Albums Podcast! In our previous episode we talked about Tom Waits and the impact he's had on others' careers thanks to their covers of his songs. So Bill and Brian take a closer look at the Eagles version on "Ol' 55," originally released on Waits' debut album, Closing Time, in 1973. We discuss the Eagles as a dad band, their use of harmony, soft rock radio, and how covering other's songs fits in the world of rock and roll. 

RAWR! Get it? Its a dinosaur! Speaking of dinosaurs, Jurassic World is coming out soon! So Bill and Steve did the monumental task of watching all three films in the Jurassic franchise. So marvel at questionable CG dinosaurs! RAWR!

Bill & Tim bring you another episode of BTBP and, frankly, Bill is worried about Tim. His addiction to the internet is getting fierce. So Bill tries to talk him into legal drugs instead. The dudes drop some serious Hochulis and fall in love with each other and themselves all over again.

Code Of The Catus 1939, When Blackton outbids Bill Carson. Bill suspects he will have to rustle cattle to fulfill the contract. So Bill arrives posing as an Mexican. When he rustles the cattle from the rustlers, it gets him into the gang. Hoping to bring them all to justice, he is in trouble when his true identity is revealed. oldtimeradiodvd.com

Now that we’re well underway in 2009, we thought it helpful to take more questions from our listening audience.Question #1: How to change your mindset to get into prospecting mode. New business development is critical this year. So Bill and Bryan talk about this. Also, if you had trouble downloading the “2009 Sales Competencies” e-book, then go to http://www.2009salescompetencies.com and you can download it there. (13:56)