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Meet Agostino Pintus As a former INC 500 Technology Chief, he had great success...until he failed in spectacular fashion that kicked off his "10 Dark Years". He was rudderless, with no direction and financially broken. It wasn't until a friend introduced him to the power of buying large real estate deals that changed the entire course of his life. Agostino ended up building a real estate portfolio as the General Partner on over $42M of deals in 32 months! Today, he helps people get into real estate deals and build their wealth. Why don't you start by sharing your thoughts on how we think we've been conditioned to not take risks? I was talking to my friend about this the other day actually. And if you think about it, when we were kids in grade school, and you made a mistake on a test or something like that, at least when I went to grade school. We had nuns that ran the school and if you made a mistake, they whip out the ruler and wrap it right across your knuckles. Right? Because you made an error. And if you can imagine that type of behavior to a child, amplified, and done day in day out where you're worried about your score and you're worried about being wrong. It's the conditioning. We're conditioned to be very good employees, that is what we are trained to do, because we live in a very antiquated system, right? We live in a system where we were told you're going to be good employees, you shall not make a mistake. And I need you to work eight hours a day. And then you're going to get eight hours to yourself, get eight hours of sleep. This is the perfect balance. You're going to do this for five days a week. You're going to do this for 40 years until we don't longer need you. Then you're going to go on to a pasture and live out the rest of your life that we permit you to have. Why do people live in fear even though they have a secure job? That's the thing, that's the fake thing. It's not secure. It's this belief of security like you said in the introduction there. I was working at this this company. It was a fine company, a great company, we had a great deal of success. We helped grow this business from a few hundred employees to a couple thousand employees. I mean, we're doing remarkable things. But what I did was while I was working at this company, I got into real estate back then doing like single family homes and stuff like that, because I was I was living in fear, even though I was earning a six figure job, even though I had stock options and all that fun stuff with this company. And even though they supposedly loved me, I still thought one day these guys are going to turn on me. That was always in the back of my mind. I already knew it because as long as your future in the hands of someone else, they will define when you can take your time when you can take your time off and when and where you can go, that even comes into play, too, right? Because if you're given two weeks and I say given two weeks or three weeks of your time, your time must be taken into account as to where you want to go and you have any flexibility around that if you want to take a longer trip, there's no way it has to be included in your time off that is again allocated to you. But at any rate, all this stuff is a facade. It's not real. And I’m a perfect example. You have really achieved some major successes. What are some of the best habits that you've employed to help you achieve these goals and live without fear to some extent? I would say that before can answer that question, there has to be a realization. And I'll tell you that when you have this reawakening and you develop a whole new focus around what your life needs to be, you start living on purpose, and that's what I've been doing now. So, what I do as far as the ritual is concerned, I wake up early every morning, 5:15, I avoid touching the phone, I avoid all that I go to the gym and do CrossFit, come home, start the coffee, and I start writing. I write down my affirmations. I say, I visualize my future as I want it as it is as if it's present and happening today because your subconscious does not know the difference. Can you share with our listeners, one of your most successful or favorite networking experiences that you've had? I network like tremendously it's what we do and as part of our core to our business. So what we do that you alluded to before is we buy these large multifamily real estate deals. And I have a friend of mine that that introduced me to, but he brought me into the fold of his network. And I tell you, the people he introduced me to are just phenomenal. This one guy, this one friend that he introduced me to got us in front of a deal that would never have made its way in my hands in a million years. And now we're closing it in a few weeks here. I can't really share with you what it is just yet because it's a non-disclosure agreement. But you have me on in three weeks and I'll tell you all about it. But I'm telling you, that this is a historical property, it will be worth a great sum of money when it's completed. But again, networking is what brought it. So how do you stay in front of or best nurture these relationships that you're creating? I think everybody is somewhat in some degree guilty of this is that is the follow up. The follow up is probably the hardest part. Because we get in our own heads. If a relationship goes nowhere, it goes nowhere. What are you going to do right, but establishing those contacts in relationships. Everyone else has got what you need and myself included, right, I have what someone needs out there. And that's why we're here today. Like I'm sharing my knowledge and sharing what I have for someone else to hopefully leverage and do something good with it. But that's probably one of the biggest things that I'm still pushing myself to do is to really tighten up the follow up. And I think what I'm going to be doing the next 30 days here is really bring on more staff to help offload some of the items that I'm doing so I can focus on what matters and that's other people. What advice would you offer that business professional who is really looking to grow their network? Deliver value, deliver all the value that you possibly can. There's friends that I've met and we're very close business partners today. But at first we weren't. And we met through a mutual friend. And we just talked on the phone and he says that he's looking for help. Next thing you know, I hook them up with a top notch guy that I know can do the job. And you know, he happened to come into town. You know, a few months later, we're still talking. We have a very good dialogue. He mentioned that he liked a certain type of coffee. And I said, hey, you know what? You should try espresso. I have this crazy stovetop thing and he had never heard of it. I went off and bought one for him and handed it to him. So a $10 item, but you know what, though? It's sitting on his stove right now. And he's thinking about me. Right? If you could go back to your 20-year-old self, what would you tell yourself to do more of, less of, or different with regards to your professional career? My mother had a serious accident and not really talked about this on the air, but she had a serious accident. And I ended up having to raise my little sister and I had the responsibilities of running the house, so to speak. So I don't know I think I would have probably told myself to give myself a challenge to read books a lot more. I totally underestimated the power of books. So I'd probably go back to my 20 year old self and say, create a list of all these books, and not just garbage books, I'm saying the classics that will really cause a mental shift, to really build your character, and to really improve your overall skills because I was relying just on tech, and I thought that as long as I had a good “job”, that's all you needed, and that was totally incorrect. Totally incorrect. Do you have any final word or advice to offer our listeners with regards to growing and supporting your network? I would say that it's other people who have your money. And people don't talk about money a whole lot. It's kind of like it's taboo. I'm not sure why it is. It's others that have your money and it's not just saying it in a bad way. I mean that if you're able to help someone achieve their goals, and you make some money at the same time, that is how you win. You win, they win, everybody's happy. And it just comes down to really supporting that other person and making them the star of the show, not yourself. That's ultimately what it is. That's what we do in our teaching program. That's exactly what I talk about. How to connect with Agostino Website: https://bulletproofcashflow.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bulletproofcashflow Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bulletproofcashflow/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/bulletproofcashflow?reload=9 Twitter: https://twitter.com/bulletproofcf Meetup: https://www.meetup.com/bulletproofcashflow/

So like my gratitude, which is the first thing I do every single day, um, water, I'm always like super, super hydrated. Um, that's just one that I used to like, let slipped by. Like I would forget about it and I'd be like, Oh, look, why do I feel kind of like, like shit. And I have a headache and I'm tired and I have no energy, like all the time, but so water, it's just so important and it's easy to forget, um, movement. So like I move every single day, move my body every single day. So whether it's an intense workout or I jump on my spin bike or run, or just go for long walks and my dogs, like I move, I move a lot. Like, you know, I have my Apple watch that I, my move goal on and I'm, you know, I'm really competitive. So like I aim to over 10, 12,000 steps every day, um, meditation.Speaker 2: 23:23And, uh, I use the calm app, which I'm loving and, um, sorry for getting my other asleep. I go to bed at 9:00 PM, no matter what. Yeah. Sometimes like Friday or Saturday sometimes like, I'll stay up till 10, but even new year's Eve. Like I was in bed at 10 o'clock. Yeah. Nine 30 on new year's Eve. There's no point. Yeah. It's not like, you know, um, also like the last couple of years, I'm really, um, I kind of am someone that hates like new year's resolutions. Like I'm like, I'm not gonna wait for a specific day, which is I used to do it. So like, that's why, you know, it used to be like, Oh yeah, I'm going to start tomorrow or Monday or new year's Eve or whatever. Like I'm not, you know, so, and I don't drink, so a huge, huge deal for me anymore, but yeah.Speaker 2: 24:38Yeah. Before this whole thing, what does that look like? So before the pandemic, I went to work, so I would wake up at five and work out, drink water, or do gratitude. Wow. And then you usually walk my dogs and then go to work. I'm like eight o'clock. And again, like I gotcha. I spend most of my day with dogs, so that's pretty awesome. Uh, I would work all day, come home. Mmm. Usually walk my dogs again and then I would write and start doing the creative stuff. So like, I started a blog in October, which I love, like writing is such like an outlet for me and I love, um, be creative and, um, I love writing and I started a book actually in this quarantine that I've always yeah. Always wanted to write. So what's the book about, um, it's probably like a reflection, um, back on my story with like what I know now kind of like looking back and like going through. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm a like 25,000 words in. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I feel like I'm at this point where I'm like, Oh, like, do I have any words to say? I definitely do. But, um, the beginning, like it just flew out and then, um, I'm having to get a lot more intentional. Yeah. Good for you. I started writing a book last summer. That's awesome. Wow. Yeah, I was writing it and then my laptop andSpeaker 3: 26:44I just happened to move everything from like my cloud, onto my laptop to like re arrange stuff. And it crashed like that night. So ever since then, I, I haven't like, Oh yeah, I lost, like, I had like 50 interviews that were, uh, on there and like, they're gone. Like, I didn't publish them. They're gone, but like, that's okay. It's okay. Like obviously, like I was whatever was on there. I was not supposed to do so, like I was pissed and frustrated and Mmm. Yeah. I was upset for a little bit, but um, like after, like I realized like, Oh, okay, well that happened for a reason. www.instagram.com/kelseydyoung @kelseydyoung https://www.imperfectlyrealme.com/post/it-s-all-about-the-questions www.instagram.com/robert_delude @robert_delude www.facebook.com/robertcdelude @robertdelude www.eastcoasttags.com Promocode NOYB or noneofyourbusiness www.instagram.com/eastcoasttags @eastcoasttags

Enhancing Your Business With Madeline Clift Josh: G'day everyone out there in podcast land. We've got a guest here from Level Up Chartered Accountants called Madeline Clift, and she's going to be going through some awesome ways that you can enhance your business methods and processes with the help of technology. So Madeline, a quick question for you. What would you say is the number one thing that businesses can implement to make sure that they are able to enhance their processes? Learn more about enhancing your business at dorksdelivered.com.au Madeline: It's real listening. It's a weird one, but that's probably the best one that you can do, make sure you're listening to your staff and your clients. The first thing we've done was making sure that the business runs smoothly for ourselves internally as a company ourselves, even though we're accountants helping other businesses, is we ask our staff what they want. We make sure that they can do their job to the best of their abilities, and it's really paid off for us, especially during this scary pandemic time. Josh: Yeah, it is definitely a time of unknowing, isn't it? And I think you're on the right page there, where you say invest in your staff is very, very important. We were given two ears and one mouth, so use them in that ratio. Listen twice as hard as you're talking. Madeline: Exactly. Josh: That's very, very good advice. So start by listening and making sure that you've got the processes in place to get rid of the deadwood, I guess, would you say? How would you go about making sure that you do have a team of unicorns? Madeline: Team of unicorns, that's a funny way of putting it. We call them wizards actually, funnily enough. Josh: Oh, wizards. Madeline: Yeah. We'll have to tell them that they were referred to as unicorns. Josh: Yeah. Or ninjas. Sometimes I call them ninjas as well, but yeah. Madeline: That'll work too. Yeah, so our internal wizards, the first thing that they said to us was that they actually love how simple it is to work away from home if they need to. A lot of the guys have kids. This was long before pandemic time, but the guys were like, "Oh, I'm really glad you guys just gave me a laptop that sits on a desk with two monitors, because I can go home and work if I need to, if my kid gets sick for the afternoon," things like that. And because we invested in them right from the get-go, that wasn't an initial cost for us when everyone had to start working from home. Everyone was already ready to go. They took their laptops home and they even stole, basically, half of the monitors that we had floating around the office, so that they were even more set up at home. Everyone's working with two screens. Everyone's super comfortable. And that was just from that simple thing of listening. It's really already paid off for us when it comes to the stressful times. We know our IT provider, again, was really stressed out just trying to provide laptops for the week to get other businesses sorted. Josh: Being ahead of the curve there's really important, and it'll pay off in significant quantities, I think you'll find over next few months and years. Because it means that your commercial overheads from a commercial real estate perspective can be kept a bit lower. Which means that your footprint, that you're putting your carbon footprint, if people are working from home, is lower. Your time wasted between traveling is lower, which means people have time to spend with their family. They're spending less time and money on maintenance for cars. It's by far the most sensible way to go. Josh: And we started the business 13 years ago in mum and dad's garage, where all tech startups start. Went from there to a bricks-and-mortar building a couple of years later and had the staff coming in there. And then, same as you guys, have gone and went, "This is stupid. What am I doing? We're going to other people. We're very, very rarely having anyone come to us." And I thought, if they want to come to us then they're probably close enough to have them come to the house and have a beer on a Friday afternoon anyway. So that's the approach that we went, and I think a lot of businesses are going to be adapting that. Josh: And one of the things that I found, actually, after we started going through the remote workforce, this is probably now 2013 or so, we found it took a little bit of refining and adjustments for people that were used to coming into work. And we put in systems and practices to make sure that we had different KPIs, that we're able to manage around that. What would you say would be a method that you guys are using to be able to monitor and manage your staff to make sure that they're not having a few sneaky looks at Facebook? Or maybe they are. Maybe you've got that written in their agreement. Madeline: Technology-wise, we've actually already got a monitoring system in place. The guys know that they've got ActivTrak on their laptops. So if they're ever doing something they shouldn't be, like installing Bitcoin to try and make money, it flags our IT subsidiaries. There's one method, I suppose. We make that clear so the guys know that they can't be stuffing around. Madeline: Second one, which we're quite lucky for because in our industry, we have to report billable hours. So everyone has to put in a time sheet for what they're working on. It can be done simplistically, like you can say, "All right, for the first three hours this morning, I'm going to be working on this client's data. So I won't be free, don't talk to me." But then we've actually got the time sheet logged in there and saying, "Okay, well, they've actually done all of the work papers. They've done the end of financial year job for the entire client and all the individuals." Things like that. Madeline: Even for our admin staff at the moment, them working remotely, they're doing time sheets per hour. They're much smaller slots, but they're still actually putting in, "Okay, well, I actually spoke to this client for half an hour on the phone." It may or may not be billable, but they've at least put that time sheet in. So at the end of the week or the fortnight in the pay period, the director and myself are able to go through those time sheets and double check, "Okay, well, actually, you've worked a 12-hour day." Funnily enough, I find that more of the staff are spending more time, realising, because they're not doing anything at home, they're actually doing more work, which is really funny. But we're really lucky. Madeline: Yeah. Time sheets and actually the software tracking systems are probably the best bet, I would say, for most business. Josh: Cool. And so I guess we have two different models of clients. The majority of them, we charge a set rate per month where we just give them unlimited support, which works great for the clients. And then we guarantee their uptime to make sure that they're not. If they have downtime, in fact, we pay them. So we don't want them to have downtime. So we make sure they don't have downtime. So we're fighting for them to be up as much as possible and to be as efficient and utilised as possible. So that's the model of payment that we have for our customers. Josh: But for our staff, we have a similar model where we have hours that are measured, and then KPIs, which are normally on the efficiency of the work that was accomplished. Josh: So say if you have a client that's bringing in $2,000 a month, for instance, and that client calls up 10 times and the hourly rate, or the amount of time that client is spent on, if that was say a thousand dollars worth of time, the staff pool bonus is 10% of the difference. So they'd only get 10% of the money remaining. So it's in everyone's interest to make sure then it works, don't go down, and they stay up as much as possible. Josh: Then that's a sort of the big metric that we found because we put in place a program assistant called ObserveIT, which lets you see all the screenshots and keyboard logs and activity and things like that. And then we built a couple of other bits and pieces ourselves so that we can see if the sort of traffic and how utilised each PC is and if one's running slightly slower and all that sort of stuff. But when it came back to it, we just needed to make sure that the staff and the business were steering in the same direction, was the big thing of making sure that the reasons why businesses are working with you are bred into the culture of your business. So then it sounds like you guys are doing pretty well the same thing, which means you're a step ahead of a lot of accounting firms out there. Hats off to you. Madeline: Yeah. I don't like to toot my own horn, but we think we've really taken it to a different approach, I suppose, than a lot of the boutique accounting firms in the past. And then even at the moment, we've found other firms that are roughly the same size as us, the way they approach, I suppose, how they treat their staff, the hierarchy in the office, they're all 50-year-old practices. They've upgraded maybe the technology. They know how to use Xero now, which is great, but all of the rest of their systems and their processes are just stuck in the last century. Josh: We were using QuickBooks. It was about 1,000, $1,500 or whatever it was, back in 2007 to 2013. I hated it. I hated it so much, but it was the only system that our ERP solution integrated into, and smile from ear to ear the moment we moved across to Xero. You guys would use XPM as well, I'd imagine because you're a practice manager? Madeline: Yes, we do. We use both. Then again, a third system, monday.com as well, just for tasks and scheduling. Yeah, that was even simpler to use for our staff. Pretty much all of our systems are cloud-based. We don't want anything not to be on the cloud because we actually feel that that's more secure for us. So there's nothing wasted and paying for installing systems. I think the only thing that we pay for a subscription for is a PDF-editing software system. Josh: That's not too bad. As long as you've got the security behind it. I'm a big advocate for the cloud as long as it's been set up correctly. And that's another thing, a lot of people sort of just hear lots about it on the internet and read about it. And then Yellow Pages, even we're doing big campaigns about it, saying, "Everyone needs to move to the cloud," and I'm like, "Yeah, okay. That's cool." As long as you know your data is secure, encrypted, and isn't going to be attacked. Josh: My goodness, the number of solicitors and accounting firms that we've seen that have vulnerable data that's out there that we've been able to find, show them and they've just gone, "Oh my goodness, how'd you get access to that?" Or, "You shouldn't have access to that." And I'm like, "I know I shouldn't." I said, "And there's other people in there that wouldn't be telling you that they've got access to it." I said, "We're one of the good guys to help you guys out." Madeline: Our biggest expenses as a business actually are the people we employ to do our IT and I'm happy to speak their name, which Connected Platforms, and our actual staff. Those are the biggest costs for us as a business. Staff that we employ and how much we pay our IT company to manage everything that we're doing on the cloud. So those are our two biggest investments that I think are the biggest payoff, really. Josh: Absolutely. That's a differentiator with a lot of businesses. Some businesses look at staff and some of the other required services, such as IT, as a liability and an expense, where really it should be an investment. It should be something that you're sitting there and your Connected Platforms hopefully sits there with you on there, as like a virtual CIO or CTO to talk about how they can leverage new technologies, and what's your exit strategies for the business, and how are you going to be going along with that to make sure that your practices have built up around that? I would completely disagree with what I just said if it was 50 years ago, but nowadays, you can't run a business. It's kind of like saying, you want to run a business without electricity. It's like, yes, it can be done. Is it the most efficient, easiest way to do it? Absolutely not. IT is definitely where people need to be investing their time and money. IT automation and marketing would be our biggest expenses internally. Madeline: I think it will change, depending on industries. For example, we have a lot of clients, where their IT isn't obviously their biggest investment. It might be the equipment that they're using. Because they might be that kind of industry, where they're actually like earth moving or something like that, that's quite a big investment, earthmoving machinery and things like that. Madeline: Then secondary to that. It's always the people that they employ. They need to trust their staff. They're moving those million dollar machines around and things like that. So I think those two are pretty integral, regardless of the industry that you're in. Josh: I agree, obviously you have set up costs and bits and pieces. If you've got, as you said, earthmoving equipment or any sort of industry-specific equipment, it's going to have a big cost. But the good news is, I guess it's also equity sitting there in the business that if shit hit the fan and they had to start getting rid of staff, the equipment they could sell and it's going to give them something back, hopefully, unless it's completely depreciated. What have you guys found that are things that many businesses or accounting businesses can put in place that removes staff overheads and things like that? Madeline: Training in those systems, I think. The biggest problem with accounting, I suppose, is you've got a lot of young people coming out of university who, a hundred times work and study, then you're really trusted and really, really knowledgeable accountants in their forties and fifties. There's a definite gap there where you've got people who are incredibly tech savvy and just want something done and know that they can get it done quickly. And then you've got people who are used to looking at the Tax Agent Master Guide, which is a book bigger than any Harry Potter novel. They're going, "Check this index against this," and they're going, "Well, I could just Google it, mate," where like, what's the term or phrase kind of thing, like, just so we can make sure that we've got the ruling right if we want to make changes. So training and investing in those staff is the biggest thing that's kind of, I suppose, saved us, especially during this pandemic. Madeline: I know that other businesses that we engage personally have just absolutely had to shut down, apart from their few youngest employees who have to run the show at this point because they can work remotely. They figured out how to use the laptop and remote login to the systems. Things like that. Their older employees are just like, "Well, what do I do? I sit at home and do nothing?" It's like, "Well, I can teach you how to, I don't know, use Slack or something like that." Like a direct messaging system, that like, if you're struggling with Facebook Messenger, going to be a problem. Josh: A degree in Google is what I refer to that as. People just need to know how to search for what they need to find. You don't need to know absolutely everything. You just need to know how to use the tools that you've got to be able to find the answers, and the tools can be people or it can be your search engines or documentation systems and the like. Josh: And documenting your processes is great because it allows for you to level up. It lets you level up. You can easily chuck in more accountants and they can read through the on boarding documents. If you have a new business that you're working with, there can be on boarding documents for them as well. And off boarding documents, if you are downsizing or a business is no longer working with you, it makes everything more straightforward. Josh: And the way I would relate it is the biggest business that's operating or one of the biggest businesses is McDonald's and it's run by 14 and nine month year olds. Madeline: Yes, step one, step two, step three, press the button. It's all automated. Yeah. Josh: Exactly. And so getting those processes in place is super important. What do you normally use to create the documentation? Is that something that you're doing with the likes of video recordings or text-based things or both, or situationally, are you putting people into a situation where you can have them learn to become the teacher? Madeline: Yeah, actually funny, you just said that, just last learn to become the teacher. That's probably pretty much the best thing, we want to level up the staff that've spent years in the office because once they can write their own processes and teach someone how to do it, it's... I have two 18 year olds in the administration team, reception and administrative assistant. They're sitting there telling the 40 year olds, "Okay, this is how we're going to use this process." Madeline: It gets rid of that hierarchy as well, because you've got an 18 year old teaching a 35 year old how to use a program, but we're not using kind of like recording processes because everyone's an individual in how they teach. Everyone's, I suppose, an individual on how they learn. So there's no one set way of learning. I think we've discovered that a lot, just through focusing on the individuals in the office. It's one-on-one, 100%, but we document what needs to be done. Madeline: We use another program called MyGlue. So that one's again, referred to from our IT company. They use it for a lot of their internal processes and you can step out what you have to do for on boarding a client, like the step-by-step processes with that. We document the basics, but it's really a one-on-one experience. Yeah. That's why the business has basically quadrupled in size over the last year and a half. Just on that one-on-one mentoring, it's just that keeping to the basics in a PDF document. Josh: Talking about MyGlue, that's a, I think it's a part of another product called IT Glue. Madeline: Yes, it is, sorry, yeah. Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So when you said MyGlue, I'm thinking, I'm pretty sure it's IT Glue. It's a fantastic tool. We have the same family of tools that we use internally, and having that documentation there, as you said, not everyone learns the same way. We've spent a lot of money to have multiple ways for people to learn, videos of onboarding of new staff, as well as then screen captures, as well as then videos that they can watch from a screen recording, as well as in the text document. So you can then have your own internal research to be able to look it up and find out something. Josh: The biggest thing is to start with something. Having something's better than nothing. Having a process there and being able to write yourself out of the business is really important. You don't want to be sitting there working day in, day out, as the business owner. You want to make sure that as long as you're not in a position where you can become redundant, you want to be able to make yourself redundant. Madeline: Exactly. It's funny. Bring it back to you were mentioning the DISC profile before. And a lot of accountants being just one type. We used to do the DISC profile on all new employees coming in, but I no longer bother with that because I want that personality that's able to speak to clients and isn't just really process-based. It's just like, "Well, no, I just follow the process." We go, "Well, that's not being an innovative creative accountant." We don't want you to absolutely defraud the tax office or anything like that. But there is ways that you can be innovative and help the client in that business advisory way as well. So if it leads back into that we don't want to be that typical accounting firm where you're just following a step-by-step process and individualising it to every person and employee, making sure that they fit in. Josh: I think it's important to be personable and not be like what the industry says. Like I'm a, as I said, I started in mom and dad's garage, but that doesn't mean that I'm not the guy that jumps up on stage and talks to everyone about how they can better their business. It's about making sure that you are the thorn in the bush, if everyone else is the bush. So be the one that stands out and be refreshing. Madeline: Yeah. We're definitely not your typical accounting firm. Really accounting is a secondary, I suppose, skill that we want you to have if we're hiring you as an accountant, we actually want you to be able to talk to us and have a meeting with us and want to work for the company because I'll tell you what, the amount of offices or typical, even real estate agents I've worked in too where you walk in and it's sort of funeral tone to it. Because there's no sound. It's just a quiet receptionist sitting there that goes, "Hello. How are you?" And speaks very professionally. Madeline: In our office, when it's open, when there's not a pandemic on, we've actually got a dog. Usually in the office, there's always music playing. People are welcome to come and go as they please, if they've got appointments with work and stuff like that, the office is just where they can come to work. But there's definitely an open-door policy as well. No one has their own office except the director. If they need a private space, we've got those areas. But we're basically a big team where you can yell out across the room and go with someone, so and so, about this, "Who's handling that?" So it's definitely not your typical accounting firm. We don't want that. That's what we're trying to avoid. Josh: Well, it sounds like you're the Google of accounting firms. If anyone out there in podcast land's looking to level up the way that their business is running and make sure that they've got someone there that they can give you advice as much as they can give you without being a financial advisor, I'd definitely suggest checking out Level Up Chartered Accountants. Is there anything else that you'd like to cover off on, Madeline, before we finish the podcast? Madeline: Don't be surprised at how young some of us are. If you are interested in coming into the office and seeing how things go. We do have people that are experts, been in the industry for 20, 30 years. But Drew himself is in his early thirties, me myself only just turned 30, I'm pretty much the captain of the ship. So yeah, we've got a lot of young wizards in there, and that can be scary, I think, for some businesses where they they've known their industry, it's been the same way for 20, 30 years. And we don't disregard that. We know that it's your business kind of thing. We're just going to make sure one part of it runs smoother because we've taped up, we've leveled up so we can hopefully level up at least one part of your business and maybe it'll flow through to the rest. Josh: You heard it from the head wizard's mouth. And I think that's absolutely appropriate because when I started in business, we were dealing with much bigger businesses. When I was in mom and dad's garage 13 years ago, as a... Far out, was I, 19 years old at that stage. I was talking to these businesses and they're looking at me going, "What could you possibly know?" But people just, at the moment, anyone gave you the... Open up their ears, and that's circling back to what you were saying earlier. People need to listen more than they're talking. The moment they were able to listen and they went, "Oh geez, this person knows what they're talking about." Josh: I know myself, I was a few years ago, sent over to Vegas to do a presentation in front of three and a half thousand IT businesses about how we automate some of our internal processes. And I was freaking out because I'm thinking, Oh no, I'm like nearly 30-ish. And these people, when I'm looking in the audience are like you said, 50s, 60s, 70s. And I'm going, they are going to think just I'm a wally. They're probably still talking about punch cards. Anyway, I get up there and I start talking. And first minute, you see people's eyes sort of like not really paying attention. Second minute, everyone's there taking notes and writing down things and you could see their attention. I went, "Awesome." Josh: It just takes a couple of minutes for people to see the change and the benefit that you can have. And it's refreshing, I think, not doing things the same way that people have been doing it for decades. It's good to have some fresh blood in a business, to be able to push that along and have that experience, have some of the nomads in there, the grey-haired nomads, but also have some of the younger whippersnappers that are going to be able to break out, change, a difference. Madeline: Definitely. Yeah. We've found a happy medium, I think. Josh: Sounds good. Sounds exciting. And yeah, if anyone out there does want to have a discussion with Madeline, definitely jump across to levelupca.com.au That's levelupca.com.au, and you can check out what they've got on their page there, and probably even be able to book in a session to jump in there and meet the team and pat their dog. Madeline: Yeah. He's Chewy, he's lovely. Josh: Chewy. Awesome. Well, I've loved having you on the show and look forward to seeing how everything goes after this COVID situation. If anyone has any questions or has any reviews or feedback, make sure to jump across to iTunes and leave us a review, give us some love. Everyone out there, stay healthy and stay good.  

Connect with Samantha Ruberto:https://www.samantharuberto.com/https://www.instagram.com/hellobeyoutifulpodcast/Join Hello BeYOUtiful's Community:https://www.facebook.com/groups/518783975450354/ Connect with Deidre:https://www.instagram.com/deidresirianni/https://www.radicallyaligned.com/Transcript:I love your brand. I love everything you stand for the radically aligned life. What does that mean to be radically aligned? Ooh, that's a great question. I was feeling into this the other day. So first of all, everything happens in the exact moment it's supposed to. And before we jumped on here, we were talking about birthing something into the world.And so when you're pregnant with something like a baby, you can't push it out at six months or five months or rush it and everything. Great takes time. And so I remember being under this tree in San Diego, um, about a year and a half ago, and I was meditating. I don't remember what I was meditating at, but I was at a Brendon Burchard seminar and a bird pooped on my shoulder.And as the bird pooped on my shoulder, I got the name radically aligned. And so I love it when that happens to me. And it happened to me recently too. So I'm feeling really good about myself. I'm like, something good's about to happen. I love that. Well, they say it's good luck, but I mean, just to love it when you get a bird poops on your shoulders, just like, that's hilarious.Totally. So when I think of radical alignment, there's different stages of it, and I actually have this. This graph that I've been creating to really map it out on our journey and how to really awaken to our highest self and our full potential, but essentially radical alignment is you are radically aligned.It's like the center of. Across, you know, not being religious that the center across, like it's the dead center of the core of who you are. And there's no being off path. There's no compromising. There's no, I'm not sure. There's no maybes. There is no, um, Oh. Um, if this happens, then that will happen. It's a strong knowing that, well, you are.And being radically honest with your path and not compromising and going off path because of distractions, because of old programming, because of what people think you should do because of self-sabotaging behavior when you're radically aligned. You are unstoppable. And these are the people in the world that I think of that are the, I work a lot with up and coming thought leaders and those who have a message inside of them that they know, like they're not quite where they're supposed to be yet.And there's a gap because they're not radically aligned from the outside looking in though they look like they have their life together. They seem aligned, but they know they're playing small. They know that there's something bigger and this is where radical alignment comes into place because the more aligned we are.The quicker we can manifest what we want and the less distracted that we get and the more confident we are. But it's not even a doing. It's the being ness that attracts what it is that we want to have in there. Certain rituals, practices, tools, and um, processes that I take people through to make sure that they've cleaned up trauma, that they've worked through, pieces that are still like the dust that hasn't quite settled in their life to clean that up.So it's like having a. Like a diamond that has dust on it. You know? It's about the polishing. So it's the polishing. It's like you're already amazing. You're already great, you're already rocking, you're doing all the things that you love. But the polishing is in the radical alignment. So I would compare it to maybe a, um, I'm a Lamborghini.Okay. So there's a lot of people who are Lamborghinis, so they're super sensitive. They're super dialed in when they are radically aligned with who they are and who they're meant to be in the world as far as influence, impact, and all of that. But they're operating, they're giving themselves the fuel. Of a Honda.And the truth is if you bring a Lamborghini up to a regular pump, and I don't have a Lamborghini, but I'm pretty sure that you need different fuel, you need different services. And the truth is when you're a Lamborghini and you're in the car and you're out of alignment just a little bit, there's something that's not quite right in, in the system.It throws the whole thing off, it throws the whole path off, and it can actually take you off track with your full potential. So it's about getting people to know that they have six cylinders, 10 cylinders, whatever, instead of two that they're operating on and it opens up the doors for everything. I love that.I love the idea of radical alignment. I want to know the tools, the different things that you would use to get people aligned. The first. I'm going to assume that you haven't always been this passionate and this like aligned even yourself. Like there's obviously a story that sort of got you there. So I'd love for you to share your journey of getting into radical alignment.Wow. So that's a big question. Everything starts at a young age and it's called soul school, right? So we go through all these obstacles. We have these moments of this is who I am when it's not the truth of who we are. And for me, at a young age, when I was probably six or seven years old, I started to live a dual life.So I would go to school and I was a happy go lucky girl, like friends with everyone. I'm had a hard time learning and staying focused in school. Um, and then I would go home and I had a family member that had an addiction. And because of that addiction, it was this space of lack of certainty when I would come home.There was a space of lack of knowing how things would be and also deep concern for that person in my life. And it was a part of my life that I categorized. And we do this as humans. We categorize moments in time. We categorize parts of our life to disconnect from it because we don't know how to process it.So at around the age of six or so that was happening. So I'd go home and I'd have a totally different experience. I wasn't able to speak my truth. I wasn't able to be a little girl. I had to be my own, you know, my own best friend, my own parents in a lot of ways. And so there was this dual personality, do a life.And so this pattern continued into high school. I was the popular girl, I was friends with everyone at school. But I didn't really get too close to any groups. I was the one that was friends with all the groups because I didn't want to let anyone get too close to me because I didn't want them to see the truth that I had something to hide.And then I was taking on someone else's addiction, someone else's behaviors as my own. There's a lot of deep shame and a lot of deep separation from both of those lives. And so naturally, um, when you live with someone who has an addiction or anything like that, or you know, you're in a relationship with someone who has an addiction, um, you can become codependent, which is trying to fix everyone else's problems or trying to support everyone else too.Avoid dealing and feeling what's going on on a deeper level. And also with that, there's also the people pleaser that comes up. I see this all the time with people, and a lot of that comes back to codependency and also having a family member or somebody in your world that has an addiction and addiction, that behaviors as far as how they act is very different than maybe how addicted or how often they go to whatever that is for them.So again, I was the happy go lucky girl. I had one emotion. And it was, I'm happy all of the time. So that continued into my adult hood and essentially I had more trauma in when I was 19 I was raped and didn't know how to process that. So I categorize that again. And I got really good at checking things off of the list, that list of get married, um, buy a new car, buy a house, go traveling together.All of the things. And again, from the outside looking in, it looked like I was the happiest person. Everyone knew I had the perfect life, the perfect marriage. I had a business that was doing well in a lot of external validation for it, but. I was not connected to myself. I was not connected to my truth.And because of that, I was avoiding dealing with the voice that was trying to come up. That was saying, first of all, every time I've reached a goal, I was saying is this it? Like looking around like, is this really what success is? Is this really what love is? Is this really what life is? And that continued to push me to chase new goals.But I never quite felt like it was, it always felt empty. It's like you're chasing these things. You get there and it's like, now what. Yeah. Right. And so I was chasing these pieces of external validation and essentially I was running away from myself as I was running towards a goal. So I kept feeling that way.And of course it led to burnout and other symptoms. But then there was another voice that was coming up and the voice was saying, there's so much more. Yeah, you are so much more capable and powerful. And you know, and I knew deep down that there was something that I was supposed to step into that because of all of the programming, because of all of the disconnect, the dual life, the categorization.It felt like impossible to even bring it into my conscious reality. And so with that, I started to get a lot of symptoms, a lot of manifestations of disease. Because as you noticed, and I know we've Jan about this before, is anytime our soul is not being honored, it speaks to us through symptoms of disease.And. I manifested depression, massive social anxiety, even though I was in front of about a hundred people a day. I have panic attacks. I manifested auto immune disease and what else? And food sensitivities. Stomach pain. Yeah, totally. And so it's like all of these were the universe or my universe, my body saying pay attention.But the thing is. And, and if you're listening right now, and I'm sure you can relate to Sam, it's like when things come up in our body, it's so easy to be like, Oh, well my mom has this, or it runs in my family, or, Oh, I should take a pill for it. Or, Oh, it's just a part of me. There's like this acceptance of the bullshit in our life.You know what I'm saying? 10. And it's like NSC acceptance of the symptoms and the symptoms is a sign that you were so out of alignment with your soul's calling. And I knew this, I was like teaching wellness. Like I knew you back then too, like I was in that wellness space. I own a yoga business and it was, I was like living and teaching a lot of these things, but I wasn't really owning it and embodying it.So I finally had my wake up call. It wasn't any of the things I said before. But was it like an Elizabeth Gilbert moment? Like, did you have a moment where it's like you hit rock bottom with it and you were just like, the universe just wasn't going to let you keep going? Exactly. That's exactly what happened.And so I, so I had all those symptoms. I pushed him away cause I was like runs in my family, whatever, whatever stories as we do, accepting the bullshit of our symptoms and our life. And um, I remember one day, Sam, and like at that time in my life I had mermaid hair. It was down in my hips and it was kind of my thing.And I was going through my hair one day as us girls do, and I noticed, Oh my gosh, I am missing a huge chunk of hair. And it was like on the top of my head, I had a massive bald spot. It was like the size of the toony. Whoa. Yeah. Completely bald. Completely bald. Like right on the top of my head right there.And I just woke up one day and it was like that. And it wasn't like, you know, when you shave something and you can see like, there's like, there's still hair growth, but you know, maybe it was ripped out or something happens. Like your hair was stressed out. It wasn't breakage. It was totally bald. And, and I remember, I remember the moment getting out my smartphone and, you know, um, having the camera on and going in the mirror.I'm like, what the heck is going on here? And it was this massive bull spot. And this was the moment when the universe was like, okay, Dee, we gave you this, we gave you that. We tried to whisper. We try to take it easy on you. Yeah, there were a million yellow flags, but it's going to take this one bread one.And that's usually what happens. Like yellow flag, yellow flag, yellow flag. And we just keep on driving poorly. So I, um, I was super stubborn, so I had to learn things the hard way. And, um, and then so that happened. And naturally natural instinct go to the doctor, what the heck's going on? Fix me? And the doctor said, Oh, well, it looks like you've developed another autoimmune disease.And I was like, huh? And she's like, yeah, like we can give you some steroids or, you know, some shots in that area of your head. But, um, she's like, you're probably gonna lose all your hair. Yeah. Wow. Okay. That's pretty scary. Yes. And they say also like, just going back to, um, people who go through cancer. Um, one of the biggest fears for women apparently isn't necessarily losing their breasts.It's actually losing their hair. It was like a, it was a big fear of mine. I'm like, Oh my gosh. And then I went home. I got the prescription because I was like, just in case I get home. And I was like, this is not going to be my story. This is not it. And I am going to listen. And I thought of Louise Hay's, I thought of her affirmations.I thought of what our body is trying to tell us. And I don't remember exactly what it said in the book about, you know, a bald spot. But I remember being like, it was like self hatred or something. And I chose to be with that, which is the truth, because my entire life. Based on past trauma and you know, living a dual life and checking things off the list.It was self hatred because I was not connected. To my soul. And so I remember talking to my husband at the time and he was like, so not woo, like black and white, like thought crystals were weird. Right. And I like owned that moment. Wow. In that moment was the moment I changed my entire life and my hair grew back. I started studying Mashama's. I've actually been working with shamans for almost a decade now. I started doing the inner work meditation, and what I learned through that journey is that. First of all, I believe, and I can see it in people.Most people are not even living in their truth. So radical alignment feels like what the F is that? And I get it. I was very disconnected and it took, it took me having that moment. To change it. And I know because my soul told me around this time too, that if I did not change my life, I was going to die of cancer in a year and I didn't have cancer, but my body, my soul was like, you are here to do work and you are not listening to your one and we're going to go after your vanity because you like to pretend that everything is great and you can't hide this.So wake up. Wow. But at that said, you probably look back at that moment and you're so grateful, so much gratitude, because I know that this is like what, six or seven years later, I wouldn't be alive. I would not be on this having this conversation with you if I didn't actually have that wake up call and change because I was so deep in it.And when we're so in something, whether it's a relationship or an area of our life where we have created all of these. You know, um, this checklist and we're, we're so in the role, it's difficult to even know that we're in the role because we've been playing the role our entire life. So. I had to wake up. I had to do the deeper work.It was not always comfortable, but it led me down the path of really understanding universal laws.  what our soul's telling us, as well as a bunch of other things, which has led me down this path of radical alignment and and seeing those symptoms in people and helping them break through really quickly.And on that note, I'm heal trauma. As we were talking a little bit about that earlier. Before we jumped on was unhealed trauma, I believe is the root cause of all suffering. Because what happens when we have a trauma? And so I had trauma when I was younger, like coming home and having a, um, a family member, not sure if they were alive and then having to like, not know how to deal with that and, you know, continue just showing up at school and in life and shoving it down.We do that all the time and we don't necessarily need to say we as a whole with humans right. We don't know how to, first of all, identify trauma and essentially it's anything in our life, any imprint that we haven't been able to process. And when we have a trauma, it actually takes us out of our body.Because it's not safe to be in our body. So when we're not in our body, we actually can't be aligned because it's like we're outside of our body. We're not connected to the symptoms. We're not connected to our heart, and we're constantly being triggered by our subconscious from any images, thoughts, body sensations, emotions, and then the energetics of anything that even slightly reminds of us of any of those imprints in our past of the trauma that we haven't fully.Completed because it's like a moment that's frozen in time. So I was triggered all the time, didn't know it, didn't mean that I was upset. It just means I kept taking steps away from my soul. And then I had my big wake up call and had to change my entire life. And in my marriage of eight years, I starting a new business.I started saying yes to adventures all the time. I had a lot of deep work to do and in the realization was the first step. Of course, it's healing trauma. You know, but it's, it's also like what is not me. And when I started to go through that, most of the things, most of the rules that I was living in plane and weren't me.It's not about finding or creating who you are. I like the idea of it, but it's more about who are you not and how is that showing up in your life? That's a really good way to look at it. I feel like it's easy to say, Oh yeah, everything's good, I'm great. Right? But then if you look at the back way, that way, it's like you can get other information about yourself and your situation and your, the people who are in your life or whatever it is, and it's easier to be like, well, is this really me?Is it serving me? Yes or no? And it's easier to let it go. Totally. Yeah. And it's, it's scary too, and, and that's why it's really important. Like, I know for me, when I was going through the process, it took me a few years to actually really take some of those outward steps of creating change. Because first it starts internally and it can be a little messy.But it's like finding the right community, the right support, being around people who get you right. And um, and so that's what led me down this path. And, and I see it in other people and I know that like, we're all here to do something, to create something to experience, love to bring love. And it comes through the foundational piece of being radically aligned.And there's different stages of that. So long story short, I mean. Phones are long. That's good though. Cause you're here, you're living here, you know your radical line life now and you're really holding the torch for other people to do the same. What are a couple of grounded things someone could do and implement in their life that would be really effective in terms of like achieving some alignment, like something that they could do today.I'm just thinking of, first of all, uh, I have a program that's running right now and we're on module two and I want to talk about this because this is exactly what we're sorting out. So I'm, one of the things that I love to do in my life, I do this probably once a year, is I like to create my obligation list.And then also the things that bring me joy. So two lists, and this is a very simple way to see the things that maybe you said yes to that aren't quite aligned. And you go through the obligation list. These are all the things that you feel like you have to do. They have the, I shouldn't be doing this. I have to be doing it, and you do it.You show up for it. But the thing is, because we're so on autopilot all of the time, we don't even know how they feel. So we just do it. And then if we feel like should at the end of the day or we don't feel the way we want to feel or we're not doing the work that we want to do, it's because we haven't taken the time and the space to assess where we're putting our time, energy, and space.So going through the obligation list and saying, okay, who was I when I said yes to this? Who was, I wasn't the person I was a year ago. Is that still aligned with who I am today? Because you know, like we're all evolving all the time, and if we're saying yes and doing things out of obligation based on old version of ourselves, well, it could be actually leaking our energy.It can be pulling us down. So it'd be outdated. Exactly right. And like, I know you sound like you're changing so much every day. So am I. I think about who I was a couple months ago. I'm like, Whoa, I've changed a lot. So it's like it's good to reassess, right? Totally. I love that. Going into the list and looking through them and asking yourself some questions, so number one, when did I say yes to this thing?Who was I like? What were my core belief systems at this time? Because it's important to notice your core belief systems around why you said yes to that thing. And then the next piece is, is it still serving me today? Is it aligned with my values today? And if you don't know what your values are, I highly, highly recommend asking yourself what your top three values are.Because anything that you're saying yes to and you are, is on your obligation list. And I just want to say, having things on the obligation list is not a bad thing. We're all going to have responsibilities and things we show up for, but it's important to know. Is aligned with my values. Does it make me feel the way that I want to feel?And is it supporting my longterm vision goals of who I am and who I meant to be in the world? And if the answer is no, well my friend, it's time to cross that obligation on the list. Maybe have a conversation with someone and say, you know what? I know I said yes to this. Back when and moving forward, um, I have to release my obligation to this and let's sort it out.And that's going to free up so much energy and awareness right there. So what would you say to somebody who's at that point who sees something that they want to cross off, but then there's that fear of actually having that conversation? Because for a lot of people, that conversation. It's like they don't want to hurt feelings, so they don't want to like, you know, it's an uncomfortable thing.So what would you say suggest to do? That's a great question. I was actually thinking about it like, Mmm, people want to, you know what? What do I do with it? Okay. First of all, I think it's really important. Anytime we have anything that we've committed to or bought into of our own, whether it's a belief system, an obligation, or anything else in her life, what is the cost?Okay. What is the cost of not having that conversation? What is the cost of continuing to, um, maybe it's self sabotaging behavior of feeling resentment towards that person or that thing that you're doing. What is the longterm cost. Of continuing to show up in authentically within that relationship or that obligation and the longterm cost for yourself, number one.So what's the longterm cost on your health? On your relationship maybe with that person on, um, you know, the longterm relationship with what you're creating. Like what is the cost? Is it the time? Is it money? Is it your health? Is it your relationships? Because the truth is when we're saying yes to something that doesn't feel good, and we're doing that people pleasing thing, like walking on eggshells with, guess what?We have resentment. And that resentment is showing up in our physical body, our liver, right? Our di, our organs. There's a cost on our health. Our mental health or emotional health, and also we're bringing that negative energy into some of our closest relationships. That could be time that works, stepping away from the things that we love most in, we're probably not showing up as the best version of ourselves.So when you, when you get radically clear and honest and aligned with the costs. I'm saying yes, in that obligation, it's going to be like, Oh my gosh, like I need to have that conversation and there's frameworks to it. It's just like, Hey, so and so like Sam, Hey, Sam. You know, let's play that. Hey, Sam, I know that I'm pro.Let's pretend you're my sister. So, um, let's say that I had an obligation to you and I would, and I've heard this before, you know, I pick up, you know, Sam's kids every and every week, and I hang out with her kids, and that's the time that she gets to spend time with her husband, right? I've heard this before and it's just something I've been doing for years.But you know what? Now I don't have time for this, this, this, this, so perfect example. Hey Sam. I just want to talk to you about, I mean, is that okay? Sure. What's up? Um, well, I really love, uh, taking care of your kids every week. It's been such an honor to do that. They're so much fun. And, um, I said yes to that, you know, a few years ago when I had a lot more time.And I want you to know that I really appreciate the time that we've had together and moving forward. Um, I won't be able to continue to do that. So I'd love to find a way for us to. Shift this to support you, but also for me to have my time back cause I really need my Wednesday nights for this project.So how can we move forward and create that together? Like how much time do you think that you need? Like a few more weeks to sort of a babysitter or something else that's so easy. It just makes it so easy to say yes. Yeah, that's really good. Cause it's really appreciating and seen appreciating the person, but then like looking at coming at it from like a win-win perspective.Totally. And it's the framework of, you know. Brain. It was love. Like, can I speak to you about something? Yeah, of course. Like everyone's open and then the acknowledging of who you were and what you were able to do in the past. So honoring the past, right, and then talking about how moving forward it needs to be different.And that's a very easy framework. But acknowledging the past and who you were when you said yes is really important. Because if you're just like, I can't do it anymore. People were like, well, like I thought you liked doing it. And there's all of these like. Gaps in communication or their stories. Yeah, exactly.So that's what I like to do. And, and um, is that helpful? Does that answer it? Totally. Okay, cool. Totally. And what I love about that too is like even asking the question, cause like you were just saying like if I was just like, Hey Dee, I can't pick up your kids anymore. All of a sudden it's like the defense is up.It's like, well why? Like a million reasons go up there. Whereas if you're like, Hey, can I talk to you for a second? And you come and you're like. Yeah, sure. What's up? It's already like creating a safer container to have that combo. So I love that you just walked us through that entire scenario. Thank you.No problem. And like for you to, like you said, you completely like let go of so many things in order to live radically aligned. Do you struggle with that on a basis, like day to day basis now? Or is it easy for you to just like drop things that aren't serving you. Well at the beginning it was very difficult.It started with really my marriage. That was, that was a big one. And, and it's never easy to end a relationship, especially when there's love there and, and time and all of that. So that was not easy to do, but I knew that it was for my highest good. And. For myself and also for that person, because I know that in the relationship, and this is another thing, I'm going back to the obligation list and that conversation.So let's say that we're going back to me picking up your kids every weekend, hanging out with them every week. Well, if I'm continuing to honor or show up for you, even though I don't feel good about it, it's going to create. Tension in our relationship and it's not going to feel good. You're not going to know why, and I'm going to end up being passive aggressive.That's actually a natural thing with people pleasers. They don't know that they're doing it, but they have passive aggressive tendencies. So when you think about the cost and honoring other people that are involved in these obligations and things that you're letting go of, it's really important to think of what's the cost for them longterm view, playing a role that isn't yours.It's expired. And I really had to look at that with my husband and I was like, you know what? Like. I'm costing him the opportunity to, for him to be with someone who really, really, um, wants to be in it. And it has radically line with him. And I, I'm not that. We didn't have the same values. And so that's why it's so important to your values.So when I left, I knew, yes it was for me, but I also had to really feel into, I want the best for him. And what's the cost longterm for him? Cause he's not getting any younger either. He wants kids and all of those things. And when I could get into that space, it was a selfless releasing. Hmm. To answer your question as far as letting go of things, you know, at first it can be difficult, but every time I do the internal work on myself that I take my clients and people through, I always feel good about it.And the people and the places and the environments that I released, they normally do too. And yeah, there are some people, um, that I've released in the last year, even that I'm like, Oh, this is, this is awkward or difficult because there were people that were close to me. But I will not dishonor my soul.And sometimes that means walking away from things and, and sometimes not having the kind of conversations that, you know, in a perfect situation you would have, but it's about, I will not allow myself to dishonor my soul. And I love that. And that's like where the radical part really comes into it because so many people like will be like 99% in, but then just keep the 1% back.And it doesn't necessarily work that way. It's like you have to be a hundred percent an FPS or an F. No. And that's like essentially what you're saying, you're like. If it's not a hundred percent FES ain't doing it. And, and so with that, with friendships, with relationships, with environments, I have a really tight filtering system of who I let into my inner circle, outer circle, outer, outer circle, et cetera.And it's not saying any one's bad or less than, that's not what I'm saying. It's just about alignment based. People in my inner circle have the same values as me. Um, they can teach me something, I can learn something from them. It doesn't mean that they're like actually my teacher. It means that maybe they're a mirror for me and my bullshit's coming up and I have to clear it.So that's, that's a sole person that I would want in my circle. But there's certain qualities, values, and things that I hold really true to myself in the people that I keep closely and I'm very aware of. Um, what belongs where in my life. And it makes things really easy. Actually. And I love that you keep on bringing up values.I was actually on a call this morning with my friend, my good friend, glow, and we were talking about values in a relationship and I'm like, I had never actually done that with my partner, like asked, what are your three values? Or even like really told him what mine are. So we're actually going to do this exercise where he doesn't know it yet.I told glow and now I'm telling you. And all the ladies who were listening, you should do this with your partners, but like find out, write down what your three values are, find out what your three values are, but then also guests to see what your partner three values would be and then have him do the same or them do the same for you.And then kind of like compare and see even I see the same situation or the same, you know, the same core list of values. I love that. And it's interesting, I was in conversation with a colleague the other day and. And she's been married for a long time and she's like, you know, I was at someone's wedding and, and this man said, you know, the key to happiness longterm is compromise.And, and for me and my being, I was like, Ooh, I don't like that word. I don't like that word. Right? Like by being kind of like tightened. But she's like, no, but I get it. And this woman's been married for a long time and, and she said, you know, it's compromising on the small things but never compromising on your values.And she's like, that's why I've been married for so long. She's like, because we have the same values and we've made an, we've made an agreement, like there might be one or two that are off. She's like, but we never compromise on our values. And that's like why they are so happy in their marriage. Because they can compromise on the small things, but they never compromise on their values.And I feel like a lot of us in our dating relationships or um, our friendships, it's like there's a clash in values and that's where the chaos, that's where the maybe drama or whatever else comes in and it's because values are the foundation of a healthy relationship. Totally agree. Some guys are going to do that.I will see how it goes. Like I'm actually interested, I'm going to make them do it later today. So posted. I wanted to sort of turn the conversation a little bit. We met three years ago at a Tony Robbins fence. The first night we met, we walked on fire together, like legit across hot coals. So fun. And then while I was in New York city, we were in New York city.I went shopping and bought a bunch of really crazy wild outfits because I was going to my first burning man, you know, in a few weeks. And you were like looking and you're like, you know, at the outfits and you're like, I think I'm going to come, and we put it out in the universe. You ended up manifesting a ticket and lo and behold, we had our first burn together.I can't even say it without laughing because it was like honestly one of the most fun experiences of my life, because your first burn is always so memorable. I've been three times, I guess now. But like, it's just like nothing beats the, like the, like sizzle of the first. And so how would you describe Bernie man to anybody curious about it?So first they have to share the whole story. Okay. I mean, not the whole story cause we'd be here for days. So I always ask the universe for signs. And at this point I was getting all these signs to go to burning man, but I was, I was in my bubble a little bit, just got out of my longterm relationship of eight years.And you know, it wasn't super liberated in some ways, and self-express and so Sam, my wild new friend is like, girl, you've got to come to burning man, showing me all the things, and, and then I manifest all these tickets. So I got the ticket in the mail. I said yes. And then I drove down to burning man on my own, and that was an adventure and it's, I'm didn't even know what I was going to wear.I had a bag of like random costumes that my friends gave me, um, got lost in the, uh, on the desert on the way there had a Holy S moments when there was a, a T in the road. There's no. No signs in the middle of the desert, there's a broken gas station to my left. I don't have a map. I'm out of water. Um, prepared spontaneity.You, my friends post-weld on therapist, no cell phone service. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to die in the desert. Like this is not good. It's like a left and it's wrong way. I might be in trouble. I have half a gas, a tank left if I go right. You know, like all the things were coming up and as soon as I felt the feelings.This police car came up and showed me the way, and it was like this universal sign, like D and like, this is for all of us when we say yes to the not just to the poles, um, things figure themselves out and it's cool to be spontaneous and, and so I get to burning in, don't know where my camp is, and it's in the middle of the night that get you to roll in the Playa desk, which seriously took me two years to get out of my car, by the way.Like, like bro, my haunted Elementor right. I'm like, I had it professionally cleaned. Nope, there's still there. Still apply a desk in there. So you roll in the desk to like get over yourself cause you're going to have dust everywhere for the next two years. And I get there and it's like this massive city, but it's, um, it's just like pops out of nowhere and I can't find my camp.And I get there and I look around and there's people on floating bikes, it looks like, cause there's just, all you see is lights. And I just was like, Oh my gosh, everyone's on drugs. Like, what did I sign up for? And I remember the Lance my trunk grabbing a bottle of wine and my sleeping bag reclining my chair in my car, have you a sip of wine and putting my blanket over my head and be like, what did I, what am I doing?Like, why am I here? Right? Like, this is just, I don't know what I signed up for. My friends sounds crazy. And then the next morning I get up and I realize I'm actually parked outside of the camp that we were at. And I'm like, Hey, is Sam here? And one of the guys is like, Oh, she's in that pod. And I remember opening the pod maybe like 10 inches max.Okay. Sam's sleeping right sparkles all over her face, like in her own, like you know, world. And all of a sudden she goes from lying down like she's dead to full on, standing up doing circles around like this pot. Oh my gosh, Deidre, like the Playa dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And I remember just being like, what. Is going on here like this is wild.Like what? What is she talking about? She's talking, you were talking so fast had sparkles all over the place. Probably lipstick on different parts of your face from like just sleeping funny. And I remember just being like, what is this? And then you're like, we have to go to the center. We have to go out on the Playa.I'm like, okay. So we got a bike, and the moment we just started rolling out on the Playa, it was like I got high, this wave of being high from the Playa desk, and I just entered into the magic of it all. And so many synchronicities, so many moments of just pure joy, magic, um, burning. All I can say is that burning man is everything that you could ever imagine.It's all of the lessons at once and all of the magic, and it's just, it's just a beautiful community of, of everything. And, and it was the most spiritual experience I've ever had in my life at that point in my life. And it really broke me open to. So many things from that one experience. I can't even get into the stories of it because it's like, it's not even going to do it justice.It's just pure magic and it's not what you think it is. It's what whatever you need, you're going to get from the Playa. And that's what they say. It's like you go to the place of wanting to have an experience, but you're really going to get what you need and the synchronicities that happen there. It's just like there's so many people that go to burning man that are so open and elevated and just like they just.Go into this vortex of like possibility, and there really is no place like it. There is no place like it, and it's so fun to dress up too, and you're just, it's just magic. And it was so fun to share that with you and for you to show me the way. Oh yeah. We had, we had a way, that's for sure. It was fun. But it kind of even goes back to the thing that you were talking about before, like all of the things that don't serve us.It's like letting go and shedding and like burning. Even like it's symbolic cause like the, they, they burned stuff there. They built these beautiful different like monuments and different places and then you celebrate it, you enjoy it. But at the end they burn it down. And it's like the, the, the idea of impermanence, how things are constantly changing.Like enjoy the moment. But there's a moment when everything is going to be dust. So it just like, it's really symbolic on such deep levels of life. I love that. It actually, um, yeah, I almost feel emotional about that because any time that we cling on to something, and this is human behavior, when we cling onto something and we're like, I identify as this, this is me, and, and you know, we could talk about my marriage or whatever's going on in my life or your life or anyone's life, but anytime we hold on to something.We're not actually in the moment anymore. And so I love that. If the burden, it's also the purification of, of the soul, it's the letting go, right? And it's just a beautiful way of honoring your past. So, um, I think there's a lot, probably why we burn, you know, letters that we never, I ended up giving to people.And it's about honoring, releasing, and, and being in that moment. And I remember peeing at the burn with you, Sam, and us just being dressed like, I don't know, you were like a mermaid or something with your purple hair. I love way cause like for me it's like that's my thing. I'd love wearing crazy color hair.It's just so fun. Yeah. I could see you having permanent purple hair, by the way. I think I'm like bad ass just putting it out there. I support it if you choose to do it or the wig. But I remember just watching the burn with you, like the big burn on the last night and just eyes wide open. Whoa, Whoa. Oh my gosh.It's such a immersive experience and it's something like that. I've always been experiential person, and so I say yes to things based on what feels right in the moment I'm like, okay, I have a pull. I'm going to go talk. That person do that thing. It's all of the magic in life can only be experienced. It can't be thought about.And so it's about saying yes rather than saying, well, trying to figure it out. So every time that I've said yes to something, based on a feeling, it's all turned into magic. And burning man was a huge piece of that. So everyone should go to burning man. Everyone should go to Bernie. Man. I remember when we were there, actually, I was like one of the night exhibits, and I guess I was like putting like my bike chain on, or I was doing something to my bike and I was looking down.I looked up and I saw your face. It was just like, like almost like a deer in headlights staring out, and then I'm like, what is that? You're like, Oh my gosh, Gerard Butler was just there and he smiled at you. And then I turned around to see him, but then he was gone. Was it George Butler? Yeah. You were like, you're like deep, go talk to him.Go talk to him. He was looking over it. I was like, I was too cool. I was like, no, I didn't even though, no, I didn't. Yeah. I'm like, when I looked, he was already gone and then I was like, so tell us, cause he like smiled at you. Yeah. I was like, I'm not going to go talk to him. I'm too cool anyways that everyone should go to burning man.It is like a once in a lifetime experience. It's like another world. And if you are curious, Google it right now and be like amazed by, it's like mad, mad max almost meets, I don't even know what else. A different planet. It's not earth. It's definitely not earth. Four texts into another dimension. We're just going to leave it at that.On that note, is there anything else that you want to share? I could share like a message? Is that what you'd like me to share? Sam? Yeah. So the message is, is that if you are going through anything right now that isn't feeling good, definitely I invite you to do that. You know, assessment, the joy and not the joy, but the obligation assessment, cause that's super bad ass can change your life.And the next piece is if you're looking to do more of that and find out what the gap is, what is in the way of you having and being and living the life that you deep down want to experience. I have a freebie on my website that I'm happy to and you over to. It's 24 categories of life. Oh, where you are now, where you want to be, and really identifying exactly what's in the way so that you can show up more powerfully for that.And I believe there's also a video series with it that can help you move through that. So you can go run over to my website, we can drop the link below it radically aligned.com and. It's one of the most powerful tools that I've used on myself and that a lot of the people that I work with do, and, and, and yeah.Just the question. This is, this is the quote that I love. The question is not whether or not you are here to do great things. We're all here to do great things. The question is, are you ready to wake up to the truth of who you are and who you're meant to be? Because your soul is infinite. It's joy, it's love, it's abundance, it's connection.It's all of the things that you could ever imagine. Anything or anyone that tells you you are not that. Is not like is not playing in your magic. It's not honoring you. And it's important for you to remember who you are by plugging in to people, to podcasts like this, hanging out with Sam, Sam's amazing and plugging into the magic of life, because that's where everything great happens and it cannot be process.It has to be experienced. So. Jumping into those experiences saying, yes, and I know that you have a Morocco trip coming up sometime soon, and I think that's pure magic. So, um, that would be an experience. If you feel the pull to say yes to, I want to be there, you'll be there. We'll be there in Morocco some point soon, once this pool.Pandemics over. Yes, totally. But on that note, thank you so much my dear. I thank you for doing this. Thanks for having me. This is so fun. And, and going back to memory Lane's fun with you, Sam.ar. I love, I love your brand. I love everything you stand for the radically aligned life. What does that mean to be radically aligned? Ooh, that's a great question. I was feeling into this the other day. So first of all, everything happens in the exact moment it's supposed to. And before we jumped on here, we were talking about birthing something into the world.And so when you're pregnant with something like a baby, you can't push it out at six months or five months or rush it and everything. Great takes time. And so I remember being under this tree in San Diego, um, about a year and a half ago, and I was meditating. I don't remember what I was meditating at, but I was at a friend and Rashard seminar and a bird pooped on my shoulder.And as the bird pooped on my shoulder, I got the name radically aligned. And so I love it when that happens to me. And it happened to me recently too. So I'm feeling really good about myself. I'm like, something good's about to happen. I love that. Well, they say it's good luck, but I mean, just to love it when you get a bird poops on your shoulders, just like, that's hilarious.Totally. So when I think of radical alignment, there's different stages of it, and I actually have this. This graph that I've been creating to really map it out on our journey and how to really awaken to our highest self and our full potential, but essentially radical alignment is you are radically aligned.It's like the center of. Across, you know, not being religious that the center across, like it's the dead center of the core of who you are. And there's no being off path. There's no compromising. There's no, I'm not sure. There's no maybes. There is no, um, Oh. Um, if this happens, then that will happen. It's a strong knowing that, well, you are.And being radically honest with your path and not compromising and going off path because of distractions, because of old programming, because of what people think you should do because of self-sabotaging behavior when you're radically aligned. You are unstoppable. And these are the people in the world that I think of that are the, I work a lot with up and coming thought leaders and those who have a message inside of them that they know, like they're not quite where they're supposed to be yet.And there's a gap because they're not radically aligned from the outside looking in though they look like they have their life together. They seem aligned, but they know they're playing small. They know that there's something bigger and this is where radical alignment comes into place because the more aligned we are.The quicker we can manifest what we want and the less distracted that we get and the more confident we are. But it's not even a doing. It's the being ness that attracts what it is that we want to have in there. Certain rituals, practices, tools, and um, processes that I take people through to make sure that they've cleaned up trauma, that they've worked through, pieces that are still like the dust that hasn't quite settled in their life to clean that up.So it's like having a. Like a diamond that has dust on it. You know? It's about the polishing. So it's the polishing. It's like you're already amazing. You're already great, you're already rocking, you're doing all the things that you love. But the polishing is in the radical alignment. So I would compare it to maybe a, um, I'm a Lamborghini.Okay. So there's a lot of people who are Lamborghinis, so they're super sensitive. They're super dialed in when they are radically aligned with who they are and who they're meant to be in the world as far as influence, impact, and all of that. But they're operating, they're giving themselves the fuel. Of a Honda.And the truth is if you bring a Lamborghini up to a regular pump, and I don't have a Lamborghini, but I'm pretty sure that you need different fuel, you need different services. And the truth is when you're a Lamborghini and you're in the car and you're out of alignment just a little bit, there's something that's not quite right in, in the system.It throws the whole thing off, it throws the whole path off, and it can actually take you off track with your full potential. So it's about getting people to know that they have six cylinders, 10 cylinders, whatever, instead of two that they're operating on and it opens up the doors for everything. I love that.I love the idea of radical alignment. I want to know the tools, the different things that you would use to get people aligned. The first. I'm going to assume that you haven't always been this passionate and this like aligned even yourself. Like there's obviously a story that sort of got you there. So I'd love for you to share your journey of getting into radical alignment.Wow. So that's a big question. Everything starts at a young age and it's called soul school, right? So we go through all these obstacles. We have these moments of this is who I am when it's not the truth of who we are. And for me, at a young age, when I was probably six or seven years old, I started to live a dual life.So I would go to school and I was a happy go lucky girl, like friends with everyone. I'm had a hard time learning and staying focused in school. Um, and then I would go home and I had a family member that had an addiction. And because of that addiction, it was this space of lack of certainty when I would come home.There was a space of lack of knowing how things would be and also deep concern for that person in my life. And it was a part of my life that I categorized. And we do this as humans. We categorize moments in time. We categorize parts of our life to disconnect from it because we don't know how to process it.So at around the age of six or so that was happening. So I'd go home and I'd have a totally different experience. I wasn't able to speak my truth. I wasn't able to be a little girl. I had to be my own, you know, my own best friend, my own parents in a lot of ways. And so there was this dual personality, do a life.And so this pattern continued into high school. I was the popular girl, I was friends with everyone at school. But I didn't really get too close to any groups. I was the one that was friends with all the groups because I didn't want to let anyone get too close to me because I didn't want them to see the truth that I had something to hide.And then I was taking on someone else's addiction, someone else's behaviors as my own. There's a lot of deep shame and a lot of deep separation from both of those lives. And so naturally, um, when you live with someone who has an addiction or anything like that, or you know, you're in a relationship with someone who has an addiction, um, you can become codependent, which is trying to fix everyone else's problems or trying to support everyone else too.Avoid dealing and feeling what's going on on a deeper level. And also with that, there's also the people pleaser that comes up. I see this all the time with people, and a lot of that comes back to codependency and also having a family member or somebody in your world that has an addiction and addiction, that behaviors as far as how they act is very different than maybe how addicted or how often they go to whatever that is for them.So again, I was the happy go lucky girl. I had one emotion. And it was, I'm happy all of the time. So that continued into my adult hood and essentially I had more trauma in when I was 19 I was raped and didn't know how to process that. So I categorize that again. And I got really good at checking things off of the list, that list of get married, um, buy a new car, buy a house, go traveling together.All of the things. And again, from the outside looking in, it looked like I was the happiest person. Everyone knew I had the perfect life, the perfect marriage. I had a business that was doing well in a lot of external validation for it, but. I was not connected to myself. I was not connected to my truth.And because of that, I was avoiding dealing with the voice that was trying to come up. That was saying, first of all, every time I've reached a goal, I was saying is this it? Like looking around like, is this really what success is? Is this really what love is? Is this really what life is? And that continued to push me to chase new goals.But I never quite felt like it was, it always felt empty. It's like you're chasing these things. You get there and it's like, now what. Yeah. Right. And so I was chasing these pieces of external validation and essentially I was running away from myself as I was running towards a goal. So I kept feeling that way.And of course it led to burnout and other symptoms. But then there was another voice that was coming up and the voice was saying, there's so much more. Yeah, you are so much more capable and powerful. And you know, and I knew deep down that there was something that I was supposed to step into that because of all of the programming, because of all of the disconnect, the dual life, the categorization.It felt like impossible to even bring it into my conscious reality. And so with that, I started to get a lot of symptoms, a lot of manifestations of disease. Because as you noticed, and I know we've Jan about this before, is anytime our soul is not being honored, it speaks to us through symptoms of disease.And. I manifested depression, massive social anxiety, even though I was in front of about a hundred people a day. I have panic attacks. I manifested auto immune disease and what else? And food sensitivities. Stomach pain. Yeah, totally. And so it's like all of these were the universe or my universe, my body saying pay attention.But the thing is. And, and if you're listening right now, and I'm sure you can relate to Sam, it's like when things come up in our body, it's so easy to be like, Oh, well my mom has this, or it runs in my family, or, Oh, I should take a pill for it. Or, Oh, it's just a part of me. There's like this acceptance of the bullshit in our life.You know what I'm saying? 10. And it's like NSC acceptance of the symptoms and the symptoms is a sign that you were so out of alignment with your soul's calling. And I knew this, I was like teaching wellness. Like I knew you back then too, like I was in that wellness space. I own a yoga business and it was, I was like living and teaching a lot of these things, but I wasn't really owning it and embodying it.So I finally had my wake up call. It wasn't any of the things I said before. But was it like an Elizabeth Gilbert moment? Like, did you have a moment where it's like you hit rock bottom with it and you were just like, the universe just wasn't going to let you keep going? Exactly. That's exactly what happened.And so I, so I had all those symptoms. I pushed him away cause I was like runs in my family, whatever, whatever stories as we do, accepting the bullshit of our symptoms and our life. And um, I remember one day, Sam, and like at that time in my life I had mermaid hair. It was down in my hips and it was kind of my thing.And I was going through my hair one day as us girls do, and I noticed, Oh my gosh, I am missing a huge chunk of hair. And it was like on the top of my head, I had a massive bald spot. It was like the size of the toony. Whoa. Yeah. Completely bald. Completely bald. Like right on the top of my head right there.And I just woke up one day and it was like that. And it wasn't like, you know, when you shave something and you can see like, there's like, there's still hair growth, but you know, maybe it was ripped out or something happens. Like your hair was stressed out. It wasn't breakage. It was totally bald. And, and I remember, I remember the moment getting out my smartphone and, you know, um, having the camera on and going in the mirror.I'm like, what the heck is going on here? And it was this massive bull spot. And this was the moment when the universe was like, okay, Dee, we gave you this, we gave you that. We tried to whisper. We try to take it easy on you. Yeah, there were a million yellow flags, but it's going to take this one bread one.And that's usually what happens. Like yellow flag, yellow flag, yellow flag. And we just keep on driving poorly. So I, um, I was super stubborn, so I had to learn things the hard way. And, um, and then so that happened. And naturally natural instinct go to the doctor, what the heck's going on? Fix me? And the doctor said, Oh, well, it looks like you've developed another autoimmune disease.And I was like, huh? And she's like, yeah, like we can give you some steroids or, you know, some shots in that area of your head. But, um, she's like, you're probably gonna lose all your hair. Yeah. Wow. Okay. That's pretty scary. Yes. And they say also like, just going back to, um, people who go through cancer. Um, one of the biggest fears for women apparently isn't necessarily losing their breasts.It's actually losing their hair. It was like a, it was a big fear of mine. I'm like, Oh my gosh. And then I went home. I got the prescription because I was like, just in case I get home. And I was like, this is not going to be my story. This is not it. And I am going to listen. And I thought of Louise Hay's, I thought of her affirmations.I thought of what our body is trying to tell us. And I don't remember exactly what it said in the book about, you know, a bald spot. But I remember being like, it was like self hatred or something. And I chose to be with that, which is the truth, because my entire life. Based on past trauma and you know, living a dual life and checking things off the list.It was self hatred because I was not connected. To my soul. And so I remember talking to my husband at the time and he was like, so not woo, like black and white, like thought crystals were weird. Right. And I like owned that moment. Wow. In that moment was the moment I changed my entire life and my hair grew back. I started studying Mashama's. I've actually been working with shamans for almost a decade now. I started doing the inner work meditation, and what I learned through that journey is that. First of all, I believe, and I can see it in people.Most people are not even living in their truth. So radical alignment feels like what the F is that? And I get it. I was very disconnected and it took, it took me having that moment. To change it. And I know because my soul told me around this time too, that if I did not change my life, I was going to die of cancer in a year and I didn't have cancer, but my body, my soul was like, you are here to do work and you are not listening to your one and we're going to go after your vanity because you like to pretend that everything is great and you can't hide this.So wake up. Wow. But at that said, you probably look back at that moment and you're so grateful, so much gratitude, because I know that this is like what, six or seven years later, I wouldn't be alive. I would not be on this having this conversation with you if I didn't actually have that wake up call and change because I was so deep in it.And when we're so in something, whether it's a relationship or an area of our life where we have created all of these. You know, um, this checklist and we're, we're so in the role, it's difficult to even know that we're in the role because we've been playing the role our entire life. So. I had to wake up. I had to do the deeper work.It was not always comfortable, but it led me down the path of really understanding universal laws.  what our soul's telling us, as well as a bunch of other things, which has led me down this path of radical alignment and and seeing those symptoms in people and helping them break through really quickly.And on that note, I'm heal trauma. As we were talking a little bit about that earlier. Before we jumped on was unhealed trauma, I believe is the root cause of all suffering. Because what happens when we have a trauma? And so I had trauma when I was younger, like coming home and having a, um, a family member, not sure if they were alive and then having to like, not know how to deal with that and, you know, continue just showing up at school and in life and shoving it down.We do that all the time and we don't necessarily need to say we as a whole with humans right. We don't know how to, first of all, identify trauma and essentially it's anything in our life, any imprint that we haven't been able to process. And when we have a trauma, it actually takes us out of our body.Because it's not safe to be in our body. So when we're not in our body, we actually can't be aligned because it's like we're outside of our body. We're not connected to the symptoms. We're not connected to our heart, and we're constantly being triggered by our subconscious from any images, thoughts, body sensations, emotions, and then the energetics of anything that even slightly reminds of us of any of those imprints in our past of the trauma that we haven't fully.Completed because it's like a moment that's frozen in time. So I was triggered all the time, didn't know it, didn't mean that I was upset. It just means I kept taking steps away from my soul. And then I had my big wake up call and had to change my entire life. And in my marriage of eight years, I starting a new business.I started saying yes to adventures all the time. I had a lot of deep work to do and in the realization was the first step. Of course, it's healing trauma. You know, but it's, it's also like what is not me. And when I started to go through that, most of the things, most of the rules that I was living in plane and weren't me.It's not about finding or creating who you are. I like the idea of it, but it's more about who are you not and how is that showing up in your life? That's a really good way to look at it. I feel like it's easy to say, Oh yeah, everything's good, I'm great. Right? But then if you look at the back way, that way, it's like you can get other information about yourself and your situation and your, the people who are in your life or whatever it is, and it's easier to be like, well, is this really me?Is it serving me? Yes or no? And it's easier to let it go. Totally. Yeah. And it's, it's scary too, and, and that's why it's really important. Like, I know for me, when I was going through the process, it took me a few years to actually really take some of those outward steps of creating change. Because first it starts internally and it can be a little messy.But it's like finding the right community, the right support, being around people who get you right. And um, and so that's what led me down this path. And, and I see it in other people and I know that like, we're all here to do something, to create something to experience, love to bring love. And it comes through the foundational piece of being radically aligned.And there's different stages of that. So long story short, I mean. Phones are long. That's good though. Cause you're here, you're living here, you know your radical line life now and you're really holding the torch for other people to do the same. What are a couple of grounded things someone could do and implement in their life that would be really effective in terms of like achieving some alignment, like something that they could do today.I'm just thinking of, first of all, uh, I have a program that's running right now and we're on module two and I want to talk about this because this is exactly what we're sorting out. So I'm, one of the things that I love to do in my life, I do th

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Jim Polito. We discussed the scam epidemiologist, Neil Ferguson, and Science is driven by Politics. So, here we go with Steve Fornier For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Peterson: And the bottom line is this guy is anything but a scientist. And I don't know if you are not, Hey guys, everything has reset. Everything has changed. In fact, I've heard what we're in right now called the great reset. So there are some major advantages coming your way. And I talked about those with Jim Polito this morning on WTAG and WHYN. [00:00:27]Jim Polito: this is the guy everybody loves when they hear him coming on the show. Everybody loves now that they get to hear him throughout the day and during programs on the WTAG and WHYN with his tech tips. I'm talking about our good friend Craig Peterson, the tech talk guru. How are you, sir? [00:00:49]Good morning. I'm doing well this morning. [00:00:52] Looking forward to this nice weather coming up. This for a Canadian. This is like, well, what's Canada day? July 1st, right? This is like, this is like July 1st weather in Canada. [00:01:06] Craig Peterson: It's funny, Jim, you mentioned that last week in one of my podcasts that I did, I mentioned how, you know, we're moving into summer and you know, my, my family does not agree with me, but I really miss those mornings when you're outside, there's been nice snow and you get that crunch that you only get when it's really, really cold in your walk along. [00:01:28] It almost like the snow is squeaking and, and I'm just. [00:01:36] You're out of your mind. You're really, you know what, I really want you to get outside today. I mean, the year we're always offering great advice to me about things I don't understand and beginning to understand that there are things you don't know, you know, and it's got nothing to do with the tech. I'm worried about you, Craig, Peterson. [00:01:55] I'm very worried. What should I, what should I really be worried about today in the world of tech? Oh, as though there's anything to be worried about, you know, the sun's getting there. We've got a lot of stuff going on right now, and one of the things that really kind of stuck in my claw this week is the religion that seems to exist for some people on what they call science these days. [00:02:25] You know, we've seen the UK now have a hard lesson about blind trust in some of these scientific authorities that are out there. You've got this epidemiologist, Neil Ferguson. He's the guy that came out and, and was saying, you know, 2.2 million people. That didn't Britain was going to have 500,000 dead. [00:02:47] And apparently he's also been involved in some of the previous complete overestimates. But you know, we keep getting yelled at about science. We've got to listen to science. Science is what matters. And the bottom line is this guy is anything but a scientist. And I don't know if you knew it, but he resigned his position at the college Covid-19 response team because he broke quarantine and apparently met with, is his lover, a married woman. His research was completely broken, the whole thing. This code was written 13 years ago. It was not peer-reviewed. People who have seen it called it a tangled mess of undocumented steps. [00:03:35] No discernible structure overall. A Ph.D. committee that had a look at his code would just not pass it at all with just a cursory view, and yet they've shut the world down because of one guy who, who. Not a programmer who did a terrible job by all people that are have looked at the code and he won't release the code to anybody either. [00:04:03] See, no, you're right. You're on the right track because it's what I'm talking about, which is the media failure. Complete failure in properly reporting on this one because they don't have the smarts of a Craig Peterson. Okay? You need on your team when you're a major media organization, you need someone who's a tech editor. [00:04:27] Then you need someone who's a healthcare editor, you know, politics editor, all of those different areas of expertise, they don't do it. The second thing is they don't want to do it because they've got a narrative they want to present. And the narrative they want to present is shut down the economy. Let's destroy Trump. [00:04:47] And this guy isn't he married to, and he broke quarantine to go be with his lover, you know, as we say in Italian. to do that. And, and you could say, well, Jim, that doesn't make any difference. He still could be a brilliant scientist. Okay. That's what I want. I want to go to a doc. I want to go to an oncologist who smoked cigarettes. [00:05:10] You know what I mean? That's what I want to do. I want to go to an oncologist who's a cigarette smoker and say, I don't know if this is the guy he should be seeing right. And also your oncologist who doesn't have other oncologists to review any of their work, you know, go to them and say, Hey, I've got a real tough pace here. [00:05:31] I'm trying to figure out, am I crazy what's going on? No, no, no. Apparently none of that happened and it just blows my mind that, and that's why I referred to it as a religion now. It used to be 500 years ago. What science was dictated by the church? And today, science is dictated by politics. The scientist is dead, is right, and it's making me sick. [00:06:01] You know, don't tell me to pay attention to a scientist. A scientist. Okay, so here, here's the good one you'll love. You know, the Chinese are going to give $2 billion, are offering $2 billion to the world health organization. Am I going to pay attention to anything the world health organization says? [00:06:20] Seriously? Am I going to pay for it? Okay. Oh, right. Okay. Why, why, why am I going to do that? Absolutely not. Or how about this? How about this? an organization that's responsible for, research into the effects of alcohol, negative effects of alcohol sponsored by. Your friends at Seagram's, you know what I mean? [00:06:44] Like I'm going to listen, I'm going to listen to the world health organization, because they got $2 billion from, from, China and no, they're not going to cover up for China, are they? Oh, yeah, exactly. Well, and isn't Seagram's a Canadian company? You know fucking Canada's and I did. I did pick, Seagram's for a reason. [00:07:07] I could've said. I could have said some other company, but I chose Seagrams and you, you, you, you picked up on that, that subtlety there. Okay. Well, we got some tasks up this week too, that we could get into because really it's time to relaunch our remote teams. Okay. Why don't you know what? We've only got a few minutes left. [00:07:30] Why don't we get into that explaining those remote teams and relaunching. Yeah. This is a big deal. You know, we kind of got pushed into working remotely because of what's happened obviously, and most of us had a knee jerk reaction. Very few companies, frankly, especially in the small business space. [00:07:49] Which is the space that I serve, that I help with technology in particular cybersecurity, but very few really understood the repercussions of what's going on. And part of this whole repercussion thing is frankly, the personal side, the psychological side of all the best. So I think it's time for all of us. [00:08:11] Just that back a little bit. Let's relaunch, let's make sure every team member understands what the goals are here, the clear specific goals that they're supposed to be accomplishing. Let's not have these meetings four or five, six times a day on zoom, heaven forbid, or elsewhere, and really start really overloading people. [00:08:37] Let's say. I as individuals reassess ourselves. Are we working 12 or 14 hour days now because we can, because we're sitting there on the couch and using our computer and because we haven't moved from the couch, we're still working? We got to look at this and we're going to look at our purpose, our resources that are available right. [00:08:59] The constraints people have really, you know, come on everybody and establish some norms going forward. Because frankly, for one reason or another, most businesses are going to continue to have a lot of work done remotely at people's homes. And I think that's ultimately going to be good for everybody, for the economy. [00:09:21] You know, you might not be able to find a job here in Worcester or Springfield, right. But maybe there's some great work for you and a company that's in North Dakota. Well, now there is no longer that stigma. Yeah, I like that. I mean, I mean, there are people, my wife works remotely, but it is for a relatively local company. [00:09:44] I do have other friends who work remotely. Richard Pelletier called us earlier. He's got a client. Who lives in Florida, but works for a company up here. I mean, you go to Florida live, you know, with that standard, you know, that cost of living and work for a company up here. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to happen a lot more as we go forward. [00:10:10] So, you know, have a look at all of this, everybody. It's something I've heard people call the great reset. This is something that we'll be talking about the 50 years we, everything has reset. I, it is the silver lining in some of this. it is. So if you want this information plus other great information, all that you do. [00:10:33] Is text my name, Jim to this number. Two (855) 385-5553 so just text Jim to (855) 385-5553. That's right. Standard data and text rates apply. You'll get great information from Craig Peterson, stuff that you can't get anywhere else explained by a really nice guy. Craig, thanks so much for your time. A very, an early happy Canada day to you. [00:11:08] Alright, Craig, talk to you next week. Alright. When we return a final word, you're listening to the Jim Polito show your safe space. ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

We start season 4 off by sharing the story of our first home birth. READ TRANSCRIPT[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.[Aaron] And today we're gonna share our first home birth story. Welcome to the marriage after God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.[Jennifer] I am Jennifer, also known as unveiled wife.[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as husband evolution.[Jennifer] We have been married for over 13 years.[Aaron] And so far we have five children under eight.[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over nine years through blogging, social media and writing over 10 books.[Aaron] With a desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day.[Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one full of life...[Aaron] Love.[Jennifer] And power-[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God.[Jennifer] Together.[Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.[Jennifer] This is marriage after God.[Aaron] Hey everyone, welcome back to Marriage After God.[Jennifer] Season four.[Aaron] We're on season four. Yeah, this is crazy.[Jennifer] Awesome.[Aaron] We've had a lot of episodes, but we're back for season four. So if you're tuning in, welcome. If this is your first time, we're so glad that you're here. Listening to the Marriage After God podcasts. We pray that it's an encouragement to you and a blessing, but if you've been listening for a long time, welcome back. We're so excited to have you here.[Jennifer] Hi everyone.[Aaron] Yeah, and we're recording this in our garage as usual and it's still locked down season. And I know that a little interesting for everyone. It's interesting for us. Jennifer, have you had any thoughts about the season we're in with lockdown COVID-19 pandemic, unprecedented times.[Jennifer] Yeah, I mean, I've had some thoughts about it. I think what's been really a blessing is that we've been in postpartum season, so we had our baby and so we would have been kind of having a low key life anyways right now. Just with me resting, nursing is always usually an issue with our kids. Baby Edith had a tongue tie like several other of our children. And so the first couple of weeks was just basically me and her figuring that out. And so-[Aaron] I do feel like though we started self quarantine earlier because we were leading up to having the baby and then all of this stuff happened right around the same time as having the baby.[Jennifer] Yeah. I would say this we had a really good distraction from what was happening in the world. And so now we're kind of like coming up out of that we just hit the six week mark after having the baby. And I think the most important thing has been for me has been to communicate with you in navigating this pandemic and what the world looks like these days. And it gives me peace, being able to talk to you. It gives me a bit of relief and just knowing that I can share my thoughts, my concerns, whatever that I'm going through with you. What would you say?[Aaron] Well, same. We've been having a lot of conversations about it. We've also had a lovely conversation with our kids. It's kind of hard to like hide it from them cause why can't we hang out with our friends? Why can't we go out? And we're like, "Well, there's a lot of things going on the world." which is going on.[Jennifer] And as an encouragement to parents, I think it's so important that we really understand that our kids lean on us for security and support, especially in times like these. So when they have these big questions, we should be answering them. If they see us being able to have peace and hope and joy amidst the chaos it will give them guidance on how they can respond in times like these. if they sense in us fear and anxiety over the situation, then that could also influence them. So I think as parents, I think it's really cool to see that God has given us an opportunity with our kids to help them navigate this whole thing. And I think it's good for us to engage in conversation with them. It doesn't mean we have to explain everything, especially we can keep it age appropriate. But just being able to willing to have conversations with them.[Aaron] Well, and also being honest with them and letting them know that sometimes we don't have the answers. Like we don't know the appropriate way to respond to all this. We don't know exactly how this is going to turn out. We don't know... Like we just, there's a lot of answers we don't have.[Jennifer] And then we tell them, but our trust and our hope is in God. And so it's another opportunity to point them back to God and encourage their hearts to be able to trust God and I don't know, just to be able to move forward still in life and know that he has us.[Aaron] Yeah, and it's also been good to, I feel like in America we have a lot of comforts and this has shown us how dependent we might be on some comforts. And also brought us to a point that one of the other benefits to this is reminding us of our need for Christ, our need for his peace, his satisfaction, being satisfied in him alone. So one thing we've been trying to encourage our children, whether we catch it or not, whether we are always healthy, we don't know how this is going to turn out. We encourage them to know that God is good. God has us, he knows his plans for us and that we can't control all of those things, but what we can do is look to God who's in control.[Jennifer] Yeah, Aaron, you brought up comforts and especially living here in America. However this whole thing has also allowed us to see how people might be struggling. So you use the word comfort, but I also want to just mention that there's a lot people who've been greatly impacted by this whole thing in a negative way in a lot of different ways. So, I dunno if you want to speak to that.[Aaron] Well, yeah, we know that there's millions and millions of people that have lost their jobs. Some might not get them back. And so our hearts break for that situation. And we know that there's people that are sick. We know that there's people that are, that have other issues going on, that are not COVID-19 related and are having a hard time dealing with that. There's mental issues, there's abuse, there's a lot of things going on in this world that are being exasperated by this situation. And so-[Jennifer] As Christians, I think that we need to remember all of that especially if maybe we're in a different situation, but no matter what our hearts should be to be in prayer for everyone who's been impacted by it.[Aaron] And also been asking the Lord how we can be used.[Jennifer] Yeah, cause we're his body.[Aaron] We might know someone that needs some love, some reaching out, some help. And so we should be aware of that and ready for that. And we should be praying for each other. Praying for those that are going through hard situations and our prayers should not just be, "God, make their situation better."[Jennifer] Or even, "God let us go just back to normal."[Aaron] Right, because that's a thing that I have is like, "Hey, can we just go back to normal?" Our kids keep praying like God make this go away. They miss normalcy. But our prayer should be that hearts are softened. Hearts are turned towards the Lord, that people are brought back to the Lord, that people that don't know the Lord and find him, that families are healed and mended, that like these deeper things. That even if the body is broken, the spirit can be made whole. And so, yes, we should be praying for healing. Yes, it's good to pray for being taken care of financially and being taken care of in these ways. But right now, this is the time when man, the spirit of God catches hold of people. And so we should be praying that hearts are ready to receive. Hearts are open to hear the word of God are being watered and seeds are being planted. And that's, I mean, I don't know, more than anything. I want people to be saved in this time for eternity, not just for the season. So do you have any last thoughts on, I mean there's gonna be lots of thoughts.[Jennifer] I know we could probably do a whole episode on it. Two things. The first thing I was just thinking, if people are listening to this episode in the future. So like going-Yeah, after the-[Jennifer] After the fact, after all this has kind of settled down a bit. I just wonder what their thoughts would be just being reminded of this time. And then my other thought was just an encouragement and it's just for husbands and wives, it's an encouragement to be communicating with each other because no matter what your situation looks like right now you have someone right next to you who's going through it with you. And sometimes, I don't know those listening are like me, but sometimes I get caught up in my head where I'm having conversations in my head, even with you Aaron, and I'm like answering for you. But, then I realized I haven't actually talked to you in a couple of days about how I'm feeling or about what I'm thinking. So my encouragement is, especially in times like these that we are open and transparent and vulnerable specifically with each other.[Aaron] Yeah, I was also thinking, we are friends and families. Not being afraid to just come straight out and say, "Hey, how are you dealing with all this? "Hey, how's your heart? "Are you going through any sort of depression? "Is there any fears that you're like-[Jennifer] Yeah, are you okey?[Aaron] "that are just getting inside your heart." And just asking so that they can be maybe brought out of that darkness, maybe brought out of their shell and not be afraid to ask those questions. Cause I would imagine there's a lot of people dealing with hidden fears and anxieties right now.[Jennifer] And it's okay if you don't know how to answer them. It's okay if the greatest thing you can even say is I'm going to be praying for you or just stop and pray for them right then and there. But I think it was important that we just spend a little bit of time on that since this is such a huge thing going on in our lives right now. And our hearts go out to everyone. And we know this is just crazy, but God is good, like you said.[Aaron] And God's not surprised by any of this stuff. I just wanted to bring up a verse. James 1:12 says, Blessed is the the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. Over and over again the New Testament speaks of steadfastness and continuing on and standing strong and standing firm. And I just want to encourage everyone, you believers out there, that we need to stand strong in the word of God and we need to remember who's got us, whose hand upholds us, who guides our steps and makes our paths and brings light into our life and it's God. And so we need to put our strength, our hope and strengths in him because they're not, and our hopes are not in the government. They're not in a vaccine, they're not in treatments, they're not in the, it just going away or those things are going to come and things happen, but we can't control any of this stuff. We just can't. And if we put our hope in those things that our hope is gonna fail. So let's put our hope in the only thing that's consistent, the only one that is a firm foundation and it's God and his word. And let's look to him for wisdom and guidance on how as believers we are to approach this thing that was going on. Cause he's the only, James also says, "If you lack wisdom, ask. "And we will be given wisdom as long as we do not doubt." And so let's ask him for wisdom. I need wisdom. We've been talking a lot about this man. Like how do we deal with all of these things? And we're definitely don't deal with it in fear, but we don't deal with it on our own strengths, our own wisdom. We lean not on our own understanding, but on every word, on God's wisdom. So that's what I just want to encourage everyone with is remain steadfast in these trials. And let's look to God for answers and our hope and for our courage and our wisdom.[Jennifer] And our peace.[Aaron] Oh, most importantly, our peace. So, that was just a bit of a encouraging word for everyone. We need it ourselves. I mean, he reminded ourselves, but I just want to invite everyone to, if you have children or if you're thinking about having children or if you're pregnant, we have something that we've created for you. It's a free resource and it's called the parenting prayer challenge. You can go to parentingprayerchallenge.com all one word and it's completely free to sign up and we will send you over the next 31 days, email with something to pray for and a reminder to pray for it. And it's pretty awesome. We've had almost a thousand people sign up for it and we would love for you to take advantage of it. We created it just for you. And man, it's an awesome thing and it reminds us as parents to pray for our children and there's awesome prompts in there to pray for all these different areas of your child's life. So yeah, we just, it's parentingprayerchallenge.com it's totally free and become part of the people that are going through that challenge.[Jennifer] All right, so today's topic is our first home birth story. No, it's not our first birth story. Obviously if you've followed us for any amount of time, this was baby number five. And, it's just kind of an interesting story and we're excited to share it with you guys.[Aaron] What's more interesting is that we actually fit every one of our kids and us inside of our explorer.[Jennifer] It's tightly, but it's good.[Aaron] It's tight. But that was just a fun little adventure that we figured out.[Jennifer] Aaron was surprised by that.[Aaron] I was a little surprised. They would fit without car seats. But the trick is as we have five car seats. We have actually we have-Four cars seats.[Aaron] four cars and two boosters or is it three car seats, two boosters.[Jennifer] Right.[Aaron] And just the way it's all arranged, we barely fit. It will be a lot better when some of them are out of their boosters. That'll make a big difference, but-[Jennifer] That's okay. Thanks for sharing. so the first four births were done in the hospital and we were happy with those experiences and we had the same, what's it called? It's not a goal. Same birth plan.[Aaron] Our plan was, we'd love to having children in the hospital, actually really love our local hospital here.[Jennifer] And food is so good.[Aaron] The rooms are just really nice and quite.[Jennifer] The people are so nice.[Aaron] It's been good. So we're not opposed to hospital births by any means.[Jennifer] No, we had that plan held in our hands. My whole pregnancy really, and the word changed that at the finish line.[Aaron] Pretty much, yeah.[Jennifer] And so it was our first home birth and I got gotta be honest, I was nervous. Even in the past I've been nervous to even consider a home birth, even though I know people and I've followed people online that have had them.[Aaron] And even though your pregnancies and labors have all been considerably like easy, not easy and-Easy is a funny word-[Aaron] It's safe, I should say.[Jennifer] Yes. Not emergency or anything.[Aaron] Nothing, you haven't had any big emergencies. It's like it just, it goes as planned usually.[Jennifer] Yeah. So anyways, I don't know. We just, we held our birth plan loosely as we believe people should and we submit it to the Lord. And really the last trimester is when all of the world started falling apart with the pandemic. And even more so in the last few weeks of my pregnancy. Protocols at the hospital started changing.[Aaron] They started limiting the number of people that could be in the rooms.[Jennifer] We started seeing a lot more articles online being shown stories of that happening. And I came home from one of my last appointments and I was sharing with Aaron these changes that had just been made and we were about to have our baby and I, there was a part of me that just was wondering what is the hospital experience going to be like? And we're just sharing some of our thoughts with each other.[Aaron] And we also, because a big part of this conversation is what was going on in the world. It wasn't just like whether or not we wanted to have a home birth. It was what is our, what does this situation look like for us amidst all of like the virus that's going around. And so we were discussing this and I just wanted to let everyone know that our number one discussion was, are we afraid? Are we gonna be in fear? Are we gonna make decisions or are we gonna be going into this with any anxieties? Because those are realities like, "Oh my gosh, we got to go to like the hospital, "which is where everyone goes that has, "that gets the virus." So that was a part of this conversation was. We are not going to be afraid regardless. Like whether we are going to be exposed or not. We want to have no fear. We want to trust the Lord because he does know what's going on, so.[Jennifer] Totally. Yeah, and also so everyone knows Aaron has been an advocate for home birth for several of my pregnancies. You would ask me like, "Hey, are you interested this time?"[Aaron] I've been pushing for a while.[Jennifer] But you've always been supportive too of what we've decided together. And so, when I came home from that appointment, I shared everything with you. And you suggested it again. You're like, "What about a home birth?" And I'm like, I kind of laughed about it. I was like, no, no, no, no. Like if I'm too far in my pregnancy that's crazy talk, I would have to adjust mentally and it just seems-[Aaron] And I would even be able to get a midwife. How is this gonna work?[Jennifer] It seemed impossible. And you were so hopeful and you're like, "Why don't you just call them and just see what's going on? "Cause maybe they've talked to other people about this." And so I made the phone call and no one answered. And I said, "See, okay, so we're not doing that."[Aaron] Did you leave a message?[Jennifer] Yeah. So by the end of that day, I had been praying and it had been on my heart just to consider both a hospital birth or a home birth. And the Lord gave me so much peace and I was okay with either one.[Aaron] And the same, yeah.[Jennifer] So when I said earlier about having an open hand, having my birth plan and an open hand and open heart, it was this piece that I had that was like, no matter what happens or how I give birth, it's the Lord.[Aaron] I actually remember, I think it was a, I don't know the exact date, but it was about a week before this. You posted a picture of the kids or something on Instagram and you wrote this beautiful thing saying, "Hey, here's my birth plan. "We want to do this." And you said, "but open-handed of course."[Jennifer] Yeah, it was an infant story and it was right at the bottom.[Aaron] And I said, but open-handed of course. And you had this whole idea. And it was before everything started getting really crazy. News-wise, but I remember you got someone messaged you and said, "Please don't have it at the hospital." Cause they were so concerned that's where you shouldn't be. And there were, it was so loving and so concerned. And we saw that and we're like, huh. But we didn't like talk about it.[Jennifer] I didn't think about it.[Aaron] But looking back on it, I was like, "Oh, that was kinda cool. "It was like open handed." Someone was like encouraging you in that direction, but.[Jennifer] So anyways, we were praying about it, but we hadn't heard back from the midwife and until the next morning. Give me some questions and I think they were just being really nice given the situation of what was happening in our world and our state. But because I had established care throughout my pregnancy, I didn't have any-[Aaron] There was no flags.[Jennifer] There was, yeah, there was no red flags, there was no problems or issues that I had throughout my pregnancy. My past pregnancies have been healthy and my labors have been fine and I haven't needed interventions or anything like that. And so they said yes and they were willing to meet with me that day.[Aaron] Which is they never do.[Jennifer] I just felt-[Aaron] They were willing to do this in this season for you.[Jennifer] Yeah. It just felt like an impossible situation that God just said, "Here, this is what I want you to walk through." And I got off the phone almost in tears because I then I had to tell Aaron that it was a go and I was, I was like, okay but like, yeah, this is, I didn't know, I was speechless really. I don't know how to explain that.[Aaron] Did you want not to tell me?[Jennifer] No, no, no, no, but I, and there was a part of me that was really excited, like I have never done a home birth before. Like how cool that I get to do this now. And then my next immediate thought was, "Oh my gosh, are we prepared for this?" Because I didn't know. I hadn't been researching about what to have for a home birth. So that, the next thing-[Aaron] I know is a little weird to think about. Like, what am I supposed... Am I supposed to have anything?[Jennifer] Yeah. So the other cool thing is that we didn't really need much. I felt like what I had like in my hospital bag and things at home already we were prepared for. There's just a couple of other things that you went out to get like an extra set of sheets and I don't remember.[Aaron] Some pillows and something like that.[Jennifer] I don't remember.[Aaron] The midwife give you a list of things. We had like 90% of the things on the list already.[Jennifer] Yeah. And they provided-[Aaron] There was only a few things I had to get. So that was pretty cool.[Jennifer] Then I had to wrap my head around it mentally and that just took prayer and me so many into God and saying, okay Lord, help me transition.[Aaron] Yeah, I think you mentioned a little bit ago that I've tried, I've been a proponent for home births and you said you don't know and I was okay with you doing hospital births, but I remember you saying like, "I'll do it when I have to."[Jennifer] Yeah like if something's gonna push me to do it, then I will. Like I'm not opposed to it. I just, I'm not ready for that yet.[Aaron] And I was like, "Maybe this is the thing making you have to," but it was perfect cause it was what you had committed to in your heart was like, "Well, when I have to, I will." And this was kind of one of those situations where I was like, we didn't have to, it would probably would have been totally fine, but we had the opportunity.[Jennifer] Well that's the thing is at the end of that day, I just knew I had peace that, or I'm sorry that the day before I knew that God would help us through no matter what we chose, whether it was home birth or hospital. And I had so much peace about it and I think that's why getting off the phone with the midwife, I was excited and okay and yet nervous about it.[Aaron] Of course yeah.[Jennifer] It was so neat that God provided a way for that. And so we started preparing for that. We started telling the kids we were cleaning the house, we were making a way for that to take place. And it was just a really exciting time for our family. A very short time.[Aaron] Yeah. Though the week prior, I was on maybe five days before we had the baby, I took the, we do have a chalkboard in our kitchen I did a little game with the kids and I said, I want, so who, what day do you think mom is gonna have the baby? And we started doing this voting and I would put down like, do you think it's going to be Monday? And it was like, leading up to the due date. And so everyone put their little dates down, even Truett voted. And I'm just bringing this up because me and Elliot were right. And so, we actually voted for the due date, which was the 20th.[Jennifer] I actually remember coming out and you explaining this whole thing to me and Elliot looking up at me going, "Mom, the reason I chose your due date is because 'you haven't had a baby on your due date yet." And he just thought that would be so cool.[Aaron] Yeah, and that's why we actually voted that because I feel like all the babies have been either right before or right after and it wasn't like way after.[Jennifer] Yeah, well Elliot, our first and Truett our fourth, were both due, were both born a day before their due date. Olive was three days past. And Wyatt was eight days past.[Aaron] Yeah, he was a big baby. But so we voted for the 20th, which is pretty cool because you were having like on the 19th, I remember you were kind of having some contractions but it didn't like go anywhere. And then the 20th, when did they start?[Jennifer] So I didn't have any, like I wasn't feeling any contractions the day before, but I just felt like it was going to happen soon. Like I could just tell my body was getting ready. But contractions started at about 1:30 in the morning, on her due date.[Aaron] Oh, that's what that, okay. It was 1:30 in the morning. That when it was.[Jennifer] Yeah. And they started and they were pretty close together. I mean seven, eight minutes apart, pretty consistently for a few hours. And then we got disrupted. Truett woke up, which he never does with a huge explosion, poop explosion. I'm trying to keep it clean here.[Aaron] It was horrible. It was all over his bed. It was all over him.[Jennifer] I've never had an experience like with having five kids now, I've never had an experience like this. So to be contracting and have that, I'm like, wait a minute.[Aaron] What time was that?[Jennifer] It was like five o'clock in the morning.[Aaron] It was early. So I'm up, like we're putting him in the bath and there's like poop everywhere. It was like, so gross.[Jennifer] So I told Aaron, you go lay in bed with him and since I'm up anyways, I'll do the laundry and-[Aaron] We couldn't put him back in his bed. It was like a war zone.[Jennifer] It was crazy. So now that you guys are all grossed out, I know. I feel like that just distracted my mind and body or maybe that's just the way it was supposed to be. But contractions kind of slowed down and were more sporadic. So it was like 11 to 15 minutes apart for a long time. I mean hours and I have a cute story, another cute story about Truett. This one's cleaner. About 10 o'clock in the morning I came out of the bedroom and Aaron had been hanging out with the kids and you left to go to the bathroom or something. And I started contracting. I had a big contraction and so I threw two pillows down on the living room floor and I was kneeling in front of them because I was gonna kind of try and either lay down or hold them. And Truett comes up and lays down on the pillows looking up at me and I'm just like on my hands and knees looking down at him. But I'm like trying to breathe through this contraction and he's just smiling. It was like a little redemptive moment for us, but it was sweet. So I labored all day at home. And one cool thing that I wanted to share with you guys is, the night before I went into labor, I was doing a little bit of research and just reading people's home birth stories that they've shared on their blogs. And I can't remember exactly who's I read, but she said this, she said, "Through every contraction "I used the opportunity to pray for someone else. "My husband, my children, friends." And I remembered that as soon as I started contracting and I said, "Oh, I'm gonna do that." I was determined. I was like committed to it, to this idea of prayer throughout each contraction. And it was such a beautiful experience. You guys, every time a contraction came, I would quickly think of someone who I would want to pray for my family, friends, really random things that, I kinda just like allowed the Lord to bring to my mind in that moment, whatever he wanted me to pray for. And so I would pray from the beginning of the contraction, throughout to the end. And not only was it a good distraction from the pain, but what a cool experience to use that opportunity to draw closer to the Lord and to lift up others. Like it was just, I recommend that for anyone going through labor. It was so beautiful.[Aaron] Yeah, it was actually beautiful to watch because you told me you're like, I'm using contractions to pray. And I was like, "Oh, that's awesome."[Jennifer] Yeah. What was actually even crazier was there was this one contraction that I was determined to pray for kids who during specifically this pandemic and stay having stay at home orders who have experienced abuse at home. And I had seen something on social media, maybe Facebook about this. And I hadn't thought about it before then. And so it stood out to me. And so, the contraction started and I started praying for these kids who are at home and possibly experiencing abuse. And as I was praying, you guys, the contractions started building up and becoming more intense and more painful. And it hadn't been like this in all the other contractions and it lasted the longest. And I just kept praying for these children. And by the end of it, I remember telling you, Aaron, that I felt like the Lord was showing me like almost like in relation to their pain, how bad my contraction was. It was kind of really interesting, but my heart just broke for that.[Aaron] Yeah, I think I remember you were crying a little bit in that one.[Jennifer] So, anyways, if you guys are pregnant or if you are gonna have a baby and you're thinking about contracting. I don't know, just remember this, pray, use that time to pray for other people. It's really cool.[Aaron] It's a similar experience to fasting. Like the point of fasting is when the hunger pains come on. When your flesh wants to be fed or to be consoled, we pray. It's the trigger point to pray. I wanted to just bring up a verse real quick, just talking about this whole experience because we have so many plans in life, we have this, we set in our mind how we want something to happen, how we want something to go. I mean, I don't think it was in anyone's mind that the world was going to change the way it's changing, but guess what? It changed. And things are changing every day. And, Proverbs 19:21 says, Many are the plans in the mind of a man but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand. And so it's awesome. I mean, in this situation, we got circular, whatever your purposes, we want that to stand. We'd get, of course we have plans. We're going to make plans, there's many of them. But are we gonna be irritated when our plans get foiled? When our plans don't come true and we get blinded to see like, well, what is God doing? Like, God apparently wants something else to be happening right now. That's contrary to my own plans. And so when we can say, "Okay, Lord, like yes, we've made plans, "but what we want more is your purposes to be, to stand."[Jennifer] That's really good.[Aaron] So that's kind of what we saw happening here. And there's other things that God had in store for this, but I just wanted to point everyone back to God's purposes.[Jennifer] Awesome. So as my contractions progressed, they got a little bit closer together and, but nothing really was like showing us that delivery was soon. So this was probably around nap time. So I remember Aaron coming in the bedroom after he laid the kids down and, you just started praying for me and you weren't telling God what to do because we don't do that. But you were like, let's get the show on the road. I want to meet my daughter. And you were really excited for things too.[Aaron] Well, I remember you told me, like, you're not, you don't know why it's slowed down. You're like, I feel like we were getting somewhere. Cause we were, it was getting, they were getting closer and closer and closer and consistent. And then it was like, they just totally like tapered off and slowed down. They were still there, but, and you were just like, I don't know. And I was like, "Well, let's pray about it."[Jennifer] Yeah, and it was kind of a sporadic day, like a very, like when I think about my other four and I even told the midwives this, when I first met them that with my other four kids, once contraction started, they would-They don't stop.[ Jennifer] they don't stop and they just keep going. And then I have the baby and they're generally short labors and this was not like that. This was just different and-[Aaron] Maybe being home made you much more relaxed.[Jennifer] I don't know. I don't know what it was, but I do think this, something that was on my mind. And I remember sharing this with you after you prayed for me, was that I love end times, when we think about Christ return and all of that, and there's a verse, people probably know what I'm referring to, but it's in Matthew 24. And one of the disciples asked when the end of the age is going to come and Jesus goes off explaining the Wars and rumors of Wars and famines and all these things that are hard. And then at the very end, he said, all of these are, but the beginning of the birth pains. So they're like contractions and-[Aaron] He points out the world chaos as contractions, just like in labor.[Jennifer] Yeah, until the delivery of our King.[Aaron] Which showed off light and distant and they get more and more aggressive and closer together.[Jennifer] But sometimes they also slow down. It's kind of like, we get these moments of peace and everything's great. And everything in the world seems to be going fine. And then you get this really big contraction or you get this really painful one, or you get this really long one. And you're like, "Wow, this is not stopping." And so I felt like the Lord kind of gave me this picture with what I was physically and experiencing and enduring, with how sporadic the day was with my contractions and showing him a picture of the world and saying, sometimes it feels like you're about to have that baby. And then it slows down and stops. And there's this rest period.[Aaron] Well, and I wanna expound on that encouragement a little bit, because I think as the church at large, would it be valuable for us to continue to remember that we do have? The Lord is returning. And the things that he's shown us in scripture, like what we see going on in the world, the Wars, the rumors of Wars, the pestilence, the massive earthquakes, the volcanoes, all these things, like everything. Like the chaos in the world, there birth pains. And so it could look scary, but for the believer for the one who has our faith in Christ.[Jennifer] We know it's to come.[Aaron] There's something good coming on the other end. The Bible says, that in birth, the woman is in pain, but once the baby comes, she's forgotten the pain. And the point is of course you don't forget the pain, but the thing that you've been waiting for and going through the pain for is now here.[Jennifer] I think there's a version of the Bible that says that she's in anguish. Is not even just pain. It's like emotional and physical and it's draining.[Aaron] So church believers, we can look at the world and these things that we see going on the world shouldn't cause fear in us, it should bring us hope. And that's what even Jesus has. He says, I tell you these things that you might have hope because when we see these things, as the believer, we know what they mean. Just like when I see my wife going into contractions, I don't think, what's happening? I think, "Oh man, the more painful "and the more close these get together, "the sooner I'm gonna meet my daughter." And so even though it's painful and it's a struggle and it's a trial, it's temporary. And we even know that Paul says, "I know that our current struggles "are nothing to be compared with the coming glory." So I just want to encourage you believers out there that, the Bible, Jesus and the Bible gives us this idea of birth pains for a reason, because the example we get in birth of the contraction starting far apart, we get to look at the things going on the world and say, wow, the more that we see these, the closer they get together, it should turn our eyes up to look for our savior.[Jennifer] Yup. That's good. So, I feel like right after you prayed over me during that nap time, the Lord must have heard because things started picking up-[Aaron] Pretty quick.[Jennifer] pretty quickly. The contractions started getting closer together, more painful and just really the signs of labor were just all converging. And what was really cool was Olive's home. And so she got to participate. I remember so many times-[Aaron] Another benefit of having the baby at home.[Jennifer] Yeah, our four year old little daughter, almost five, was so thrilled to be able to participate in it. And she would, I would be on that big, the big bouncing ball, through contractions and she'd be sitting in front of me on my bed and she'd reach out and put her hand on my leg and encourage me. She'd rub my arms.[Aaron] Shoulders.[Jennifer] She'd look up at me and she go, "Mom, you can do this." Or she'd caught pretty much copy Aaron, anything that Aaron did, she'd do five minutes later. So she'd say, mom, she'd see a contraction coming. She goes, "Mom, just breathe." And then she breath with me-[Aaron] Yeah cause I kept reminding you like breathe, open your mouth.[Jennifer] Yeah, so that was really sweet. There was a handful of time. She prayed for me.[Aaron] What was that thing she told you? There was a moment as you got closer and you were just like, I think you said, I can't do this. Or I don't think I could do this. That's what it was. I don't think I could do this. What did she say?[Jennifer] She said, "You could do it, mom." I don't remember.[Aaron] It was really powerful. She was like, "You can do it mom. "And actually you have to do it the baby is coming."[Jennifer] Yeah. She's serious.[Aaron] She was good.[Jennifer] She's so funny, but such an encourager. And actually now she would love to be a midwife when she grows up after realizing what they do, handling mamas and babies all day.[Aaron] She wasn't freaked out by any of it.[Jennifer] No, she was such so strong. So yeah, things started picking up and I knew I was getting closer. So we called the midwife to come check on us and my friend Angie, who was going to be present at the birth. And another thing that I wanted to share with you guys is one of my desires from the beginning of this pregnancy was-[Aaron] Plans.[Jennifer] I mean, yeah. Was to praise my baby out. And I know it sounds kind of weird, but I've heard other phrases of like breathing the baby out or just letting your body kind of push the baby out. But my heart was that I would worship God throughout the whole experience. And I wanted to be like highly aware that I was able to do this during labor and delivery. And not only did Olive remind me to be singing very loudly because she was doing that. We had a specific playlist that we were playing and the songs like Waymaker and I Will Wait For You by Shane and Shane, like just some really great songs.[Aaron] Did you have in Christ alone in there?[Jennifer] In Christ alone, it was my Anthem throughout pregnancy. I just, I played that song every day. I just, I love that song and it was actually the song she was born too, which is really cool.[Aaron] It came on, and then-[Jennifer] She came.she came.[Jennifer] It was so cool you guys. And also Angie, cause I have a really close relationship with her. She knew this was a desire of mine. And towards the end specifically, I remember hearing her voice saying, "Jen remember to praise," like remember to sing, remember to worship and as hard as it was because I was giving birth and it's hard to even breathe at that time to be able to sing. It was like, my flesh was like, I don't want to do that right now. And then I heard the words of the song playing and I would just jump in and start singing. It was such a cool experience.[Aaron] I think you were singing it while you were pushing her out. Like it was that-[Jennifer] I was saying, "God you're good, " I feel so good."[Aaron] Yeah, it was pretty powerful and what's awesome is, another one of your plans and your heart's desire was to be like ministering and you wanted your labor to be a witness and a blessing to the nurses at the hospital.[Jennifer] I was just gonna say to the nurses at the hospital, it was one of my prayers throughout the pregnancy. I was praying for their hearts. I was praying for whoever was present at the birth to see God in it, whether it was in our relationship and the way we were interacting or in the actual birth. But my heart was that God would use this labor and delivery in a purposeful way in the hearts of those who were experiencing it alongside me, but what I didn't know was, I had been praying for the nurses and doctors. And then at the last minute we changed to a home birth.[Aaron] But God knew.[Jennifer] But God knew who was going to be there.[Aaron] And I remember that, I mean, you're singing worship songs. You're like are just the way we were interacting was really peaceful, really strong, really calm. And with our daughter there and just, I feel like the whole experience was very worshipful. It was really peaceful, really cool. And I know that it impacted the midwives that were there.[Jennifer] I hope so.[Aaron] First of all, they were awesome.[Jennifer] They were amazing.[Aaron] Really quiet, really calm like just really in control.[Jennifer] But also attentative.[Aaron] And attentative, yeah. And I remember afterwards, one of the midwives was saying, what did she say? We are truly honored to be a part of this. It almost looked like she's gonna cry. I don't know if she was or not, but it looked like they were truly like blessed if anything, by your labor, babe, like you did such a good job.[Jennifer] I praise God.[Aaron] Yeah it was awesome.[Jennifer] So little Edith joined us at five on the dot.[Aaron] Five o'clock yeah.[Jennifer] 5:00 PM on her due date with bright copper red hair. It's so beautiful.[Aaron] Yeah, we're praying really hard right now. And if you want to pray with us that she keeps that hair.[Jennifer] Oh, it's okay. It's just, all of our kids are blonde, so I'm assuming it'll change, but it's such a sweet color, especially in the side.[Aaron] Olive came out with really dark hair.[Jennifer] Yeah, it wasn't as red, but it was-[Aaron] It wasn't as red, Wyatt came out with like a-[Jennifer] Well, he was bald and so it was Truett.[Aaron] But its cute when it grew and it was a little red.[Jennifer] It was like a strawberry blonde. He's still kind strawberry blonde.[Aaron] But she is like, you were looking at it right now. It's super, she's super red.[Jennifer] She's sleeping. So anyways, all to say this, you guys, it was a really neat experience to be able to have a peaceful home birth. I thank the Lord that my past pregnancies and history was there. They were fine. And there was no interventions or-[Aaron] No complicated ones.[Jennifer] Yeah, there was no complications or anything like that. And that the Lord gave me the confidence to be able to say yes to this and that we were able to lean on each other, Aaron, to be able to do that.[Aaron] Do you feel like it was what God wanted?[Jennifer] I do. I feel like he had a plan from the beginning that he just didn't reveal to me until the end. Maybe he knew that's what I needed. I don't know.[Aaron] And we have no idea what God's doing in the hearts of those ladies that were with us and we need to keep praying for them because we don't know where they're at.[Jennifer] Or a daughter.[Aaron] Or a daughter. Yeah, But I mean-[Jennifer] I mean we know what's going-[Aaron] She's gonna become a midwife nurse.[Jennifer] She had all kinds of questions afterwards, but she just, she was thrilled to be able to participate in that way. I know it made her feel super special.[Aaron] So here's a question, probably all the pregnant ladies are thinking, would you do it again?[Jennifer] I remember texting a friend that later that night and she goes, so how was it? And I'm like, I'm a fan.[Aaron] Cause we have several people be like, "You can do this, you can do this." Cause we have a lot of friends that have done home births, almost all their kids, I think. And so they've been, they were really cheering you on another excited that you're like switched. And we know it's not for everybody.[Jennifer] But here, it's also something that I just keep telling myself as it's open. So like, even if we ever had another baby, I would be okay with having it in the hospital or at home. So it's just really submitting that to the Lord and saying, what do you want? This is for you.[Aaron] So babe I know there's probably a lot of women that are considering a home birth. If they've never had one before, how would you encourage someone who's already considering this?[Jennifer] Well for someone that's already considering it, I would just say again, pray about it and submit it to the Lord. Talk about it with your husband and do what research you need to do. All the questions that you might have surrounding it, go ask them, ask your friends, ask your care providers. Whoever's looking after you. But don't be afraid of it. I had a good friend tell me, like having a baby is not an emergency. It's a natural thing that God built our bodies to do.[Aaron] It's a good encouragement.[Jennifer] And we need to be able to trust that God's design works. Now there's a lot of cases out there where for whatever reason, someone needs to give birth in a hospital or someone needs an intervention and that's okay, too. So even for someone who's already planning a home birth or someone who desires a home birth, even they have to hold that birth plan loosely in their hands and submit it to the Lord and say, "God, what do you want from me?" And he might even change their plans to be a hospital birth. And I think the greatest thing is to just have peace no matter what that plan is and say, God, it's yours.[Aaron] Yeah, something I just want to remind everyone also is, and if you're not having caught it yet, we talk a lot about how our lives are to be ministry. It's not just like we have ministry over here. Like, "Oh, I work at this church "or I have this job over here. "That's some sort of ministry which no, those are bad." But when we realized that when Christ comes into us, when we have the Holy spirit, our life now is a ministry being poured out. We're being poured out into the world. We're lights set up on a hill. And so even in our home birth, we are doing ministry. Our life and the way we present ourselves and the way we react to each other and interact with each other and interact with the midwives and those around us is how the gospel is spread in the world. It's by our words and our actions, it's not by this thing set over here. And that happens once a week or every other week or once a month. It's everything we do. And if you're wondering what that looks like, ask God, say God, "How's my life? How is the things that we're pursuing, our labors, our work, our at home life, our schooling, our jobs, our everything? Our hobbies. How are we representing you everywhere we are? Because we are the body of Christ. Where we go, Christ goes. And so that's what we, our heart was for this labor. And it's what our heart is for this podcast, is what our heart is for our books, for our home, for our neighborhood. And so if you haven't thought that way, our parent hope is that your mind would be changed and that you would start to realize and recognize that every bit of your life is the Lords. And he desires it to be a offering to him. He desired, he calls us to be living sacrifices. And so, that's, what's amazing is we can be at home doing home birth, something that we don't need, didn't plan and say, "Okay, Lord, how are you gonna use this for you? "What do you want from us? "How can we participate in what you're doing "in the lives of those that are going to be here? "And also, what are you gonna do in us?" Cause there's a lot that God did in us, challenging us and changing our minds about things and showing us how to trust him more. So that was a little bit about our home birth story, which we think it's, God's story of course, all of our births. I wouldn't say this birth was any better than any of the other ones. Cause they all were amazing. I love meeting my children, but I did love a lot doing it at home. I really enjoyed it.[Jennifer] I really did too.[Aaron] So husbands out there, it was a pretty awesome experience if your wife is considering it, just know it's pretty awesome. You're home, it's more comfortable you're in your bed. If you have other children, they get to participate and see how it and know what's going on. And it was a really cool thing anyways. Yeah, that was our story, is there any last thing you wanna add?[Jennifer] I feel like, no, I think that what we shared was really cool and I'm, I just want everyone to hear me say that I love you and that I'm really proud of you. You're a really awesome support for me, especially during that time of labor and delivery and managing our other four kids during the whole thing. I just really love doing life with you and I'm excited that the podcast is back up and we're in season four. So I'm excited to be doing this with you.[Aaron] Awesome. Well, that was really nice. Thank you babe. I love you too and ditto and all of that. And bonus baby Edith this year and she is awesome.[Jennifer] She's doing really great.[Aaron] She's starting to smile and she's, I want her to cue a lot more, but she's just barely started.[Jennifer] She likes open's her mouth like she's gonna and then she just sit there and wait, she doesn't do it.[Aaron] She teases us, but she is so sweet. All right. We love you all. My hope that was an encouragement to you and a blessing. We're praying for you. We pray that God just moved mightily in your marriages and uses you for mighty things for his kingdom, wherever you're at. And during the season of chaos and craziness, just remember God's our peace and our hope.[Jennifer] And he is good.[Aaron] And he is good. And if you have been wavering in your faith in the Lord, I pray that you would just ran to him like, like you've never ran to him before and that you would surrender everything. He's the only thing worthy of giving your entire life to, and one day we're gonna be able to spend eternity with him.[Jennifer] One day soon.[Aaron] Birth pains.[Jennifer] Yeah.[Aaron] So-[Jennifer] We'll just pray through those contractions.[Aaron] As usual, Jennifer will you pray's out?[Jennifer] Dear father, you are the giver of life. Thank you for the gift of children. We pray we would have a deep understanding of children and we pray for a strong desire to bless the children in our lives. We pray, we would understand our purpose and role in raising children that know you. May our examples of life and marriage and everything show them the way that honors and glorifies you. Lord we also pray and ask for your peace to be in all of our hearts and in all of our homes, especially when the world seems to be lacking peace. Help us to be confident in trusting you for everything. In Jesus name. Amen.[Aaron] Amen. We love you all. If you haven't left us a review, would you take a moment and do that today? Those reviews help us rank in all the podcast apps and it also lets people know what the podcast is about and what other people think. If you have a lot to review, you are awesome. Thank you so much. Don't forget to get the, to take the challenge. It's parentingprayerchallenge.com. We talked about in the beginning of the show. We love you and we'll see you next week.[Aaron Voiceover] Did you enjoy today's show? if you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

14th May 2020 And stay with it. No matter what you feel, when you know where you are is right, you learn and you find a way. Sometimes you feel you can’t breathe, other times all you find is air. What’s the difference between the two really. In and out. In and out. I was holding a leaf when I recorded this, I usually do when I'm taking walks. Makes me feel centered and calm again somehow. Like I'm safe.

Welcome back to the fuel your legacy podcast. Each week we expose the faulty foundational mindsets of the past and rebuild a newer, stronger foundation essential in creating your meaningful legacy. We've got a lot of work to do. So let's get started.As much as you like this podcast, I'm certain that you're going to love the book that I just released on Amazon, fuel your legacy, the nine pillars to build a meaningful legacy. I wrote this to share with you the experiences that I had while I was identifying my identity, how I began to create my meaningful legacy, and how you can create yours. You're gonna find this book on Kindle, Amazon, and as always on my website, Sam Knickerbocker calm.Welcome back to fuel your legacy show and we are excited. I'm always excited every time I get to meet new people, learn more about them. It's always an exciting moment right now. We're still kind of in the midst of the hopefully onlineOn the latter half of the Coronavirus, quarantine, so a lot of people say weird things because they're kind of delusional at this point but it's gonna be a good podcast Anyways, I'm season. I love this I love getting to hear people's experiences and where they are and how they became who they are today. So today we are going to be talking todasiaArnold, sorry, I missed her last name, Dacia Arnold, and she's an author, mom Superwoman in her eyes, and I'm sure in many other people's eyes, I'm excited for you to get to hear her story of where she came from, what she thought was her passion and what she ultimately came out believing was or passionate and what she's doing now. I feel that your story will be relatable to you. And maybe that you once had a passion or you thought something was going to be how your life was going to go. And then it didn't go that way.But it turned out better. So I'm excited for her and we're gonna let her take it away. Okay, thanks.Yeah, it's it's a crazy world we live in. But, but I'm really excited to share about my life. My background isI, I left home really early, my parents split up when I was 15. And I went to go live with relatives. So when it came time for me to be an adult, I went back to, to what I knew my dad growing up was in the military. And so I decided that I was going to chase my dad's legacy and join the military just to kind of bridge this gap of like a relationship with my father. And so I did this, I joined the military. I wanted to be as close to combat as possible, but back when I joined that didn't existbefore MyleneAnd but they did say they're like, you know, you scored high enough on this test they could really just pick whatever you want it. So I decided to become a medic and jump into the medical field.So I am joined the army after 911 says like 2014 when I joined the military, I worked in a combat support hospital. I worked in Baghdad emergency room so they made a TV show about my unit Baghdad er is an HBO documentary.And then I came homeand decided to stick with it. I signed another contract. So when overseas again.And at the end of the day, like my my big goal was to, you know, build that relationship with my dad. And it really did. I was able to call my dad and ask him for career advice. I even was able to get stationed in the same place for him.He retired. So then like we he lived down the street from me, it was great.Then I had a son. And I thought that I could be one of those combat boot moms. And you know, I know many women who are and they're successful and they're great. I was not one of them. As soon as that little boy came into the world, I immediately noticed there was no, I didn't own anything. The government owned everything to include by time, my home, my family, me, every, every extension of me, and there was no black and white. So I didn't like not having that boundary of family. And so and this is and now I'm saying this now, but this is this should have been like my first marker where I was on the wrong path.And so I decided not to sign another contract with the military and finished outMy time my son was a year old. My husband who had also got out of the military decided to join the railroad. So he drives trains for the railroad here in Colorado.I went to work, I think I was I was able to be home for maybe about 10 months before I was really climbing the walls and living a life of constantly like being constantly engaged and to being a stay at home mom just really didn't mesh well with me. So going back to work for a hospital here in Denver.You know, it was, it was starting over, I had to take an entry level position, because instead of going to college, I joined the military, so I didn't have a college degree. And so when I got out of the military, my dad also he published a science fiction book, and I read this same fiction book and I was like, oh,Yeah, if dad can do it, I can do it. And this is this will be another way for me and my dad to really bond and, and since then like he had gotten married and has he has a son and and he has a you know his own family now and and me and my siblings are all grown and have our own children but I was like yeah I can I can do this I became a mom and he's you know, a dad to a younger kid, you know, we could bond bonds more because I'm always chasing my dad's legacy always.So then I wrote a science fiction novel, I wrote 544 science fiction novels, um, and and just really kind of blew up in the industry really, really fast. Whereas my dad didn't and come to find out like this one thing was supposed to be his thing, like something that nobody else in this family did and it really just kind of droveThe wedgebetween my father and let it land my father and I and so I don't. Now I don't share about my literary career or anything like that.So, that being said, I had another baby, and still working at the hospital, my daughter got really, really sick. And so it's like illnesses that would give a normal kid like a runny nose, put my daughter in the ICU four times in a year.So that was scary. So I had to quit my job at the hospital and stay at home with her. And this again, lasted for about 10 months. And then she was out of the hospital for an extended period of time. I was like, okay, Mama needs to go back to work now. So I went back to work at the hospital. While I was working at the hospitals working on my degree. I finished my degree, my bachelor's in English. I'm thinking that I'm going to continue thiswriting career.Um, I didn't, I actually applied for a few other jobs to include Department of Public Health here in Colorado.Andtaking this so, so my current position with public health and this is where I decided that this is where I need to go.I worked in the emergency room my entire career, I've worked in a hospital settingbut the same time that I was leaving the emergency room was the same time this Coronavirus really hit. And so I had to make a choice to stay in the emergency room where I have trained my entire adult life on the medical response of biological hazards or leave and go to this next kind of higher echelon ofstrategic planning of healthcare, which I've never been a part of,but it was more money.And I transition from working on the frontlines to working on a different kind of frontline but at home with my family and staying safe so I did that it was really hard for me.I have this inherent need to just save everybody from everything. So taking a step back and working from home, I felt like I was not making the most of my life experiences.Then come to find out I'll get a phone call later on. That Well, my my division.My director, the director of my division has been tasked now to man one of the overflow facilities from the one of our convention centers here in Denver and I have been identified asAs one of their logistical people who has the key experience to work with the National Guard in this facility, like on the back on the front lines, but in a higher level of engagement. And I, you know, it's scary is scary because I know at some point I'm going to get sick. But at the same time, I have never felt more validated in my life to have gone on this long string of following my dad and following my dad and trying to fill these shoes to actually have my own shoes to fill. Like if this isexciting for me. It's engaging and it's something I'm very, very passionate about. So that's where we are today. Awesome. I love it. So I have lots of questions and things that I just want to point out. I think this is interesting from a I studied neuro psychology. So my myI currently help people with money, learn how money works, because I think that's most important. And and for me, I believe it's directly connected to mental health. When I looked in the research, the more and more mental health issues and, andsocial issues, domestic violence, things like that were happening in lower socioeconomic households rather than in in higher socioeconomic households. It's not that it doesn't happen, like, people say like, well, it still happens. I know it still happens. But when it happens, they have the money to take care of it the way they need to. If you get depressed, and you're broke, you don't get to go to a psychologist, you get to go find drugs or die like it's just a different situation. So to pretend it the same is false. And it comes down to how well you understand how money works. So it's not that psychologists aren't needed, it's not that psychiatrist aren't needed all those people. They have a job to do. It's just not where I want it to be. Because then give me the lifestyle that I wanted or the income so I teach people how toMoney works.And that's okay. But I think it's interesting. And when we're looking at this, the I have 11 siblings, but I have 10 said when I'm seven of 11 and you can see, it's sureyes.But But it's interesting, the idea of going to basically whatever lengths to build a familiar relationship with your, with your dad. And and, and I don't know where your mom is that's one of my questions Where's your mom at and maybe that's a touchy subject, but I'm curious. It is it is. So um, she's in in one of those situations that you explained that the the socio economical, like she's never had to take care of herself. So when my so my dad being in the military was always like the breadwinner. So when that was when they were no longer a thing. It kind of left my motherThey'rein, in limbo financially, and she just never got out of it. So she turned to you know, like you mentioned drugs and, and, you know, not not good home relationships. Yeah, so something fascinating about that there's a book called story selling for financial advisors. Very interesting book, it's worth a read. But one, they spend a whole chapter or two chapters in this book, specifically talking about why it's absolutely essential for women in the family to get financially educated, it doesn't matter. Like it's so and it's older way of thinking, and you have to look at like the sociology of how we develop as a country. But the man earned the money and the man determined how the money was going to be spent. That was the case for a long time. And so the women never got to make decisions really, but yet, they were actually the people who are making decisions. Most of them they were the ones who are paying the electricity bills. They were the ones who going to the grocery store and shopping. They were the onesWere using the money but when it came to decision making, they weren't visions. And so the confidence or the identity of being good with money was never there. Not that they weren't good with money. They were good with money their whole life. Just somebody else was providing it. The moment they were now responsible for providing and managing, it's their identity wasn't there? Anyways, it's a very fascinating social construct. That's kind of what I assume so I was trying to go about that.Softly What about the word? sensitively? delicately. Yeah. Isthe desire to have a relationship with your with your parents was a driving force in where you're going, you're still living, not necessarily somebody else's dream completely, but living a life in a way that you could seek for greater connection. And we all do that we all at one level or another, seek or live our lives in a way to get greaterconnection. In fact, there's a I don't know if you've heard of Steve siebold. Buthe has a book called the 177. Mental Toughness Secrets of the world class did mental toughness training for Navy SEALs for a number of years. And one of the things he says is that by the age eight years old, addiction to the approval of others, is stronger than any other day addiction that we know of. Right? And it's that addiction that is, soit's not necessarily a bad thing. Addiction isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's what are you addicted to? Andwhen you're young, you don't really have the ability to think, Okay, I'm going to be addicted to what I want more than what I think somebody else wants. And so it's really easy for us to go down this pathway of fulfilling a role that we think somebody else will accept us better in, right, I want to create connection, so I'm going to fulfill this role to hopefully get connectionAnd that and the systemic problems that we're probably not going to get into today. But I think it's interesting. She was willing to put her life on the line front lines of military, for connection. What I The reason I bring this up is because what or if you're a parent or a sibling, or a child,what are the people around you that people who supposedly love you the most or that you should love the most, quote unquote? What are they potentially willing to do to be recognized by you and to connect? What lengths are they willing to do? That you might think, why do you keep doing this? It's because they want connection. And maybe the only time you you recognize them is when they do something that you don't agree with.It's so easy to createadverseresults in life because of what we're trying is ultimately to get connection. And so I invite you to push pauseOn this podcast and connect with somebody that you've been thinking about, you've been meaning to connect with, but you haven't connected with because life gets in the way. Well, they still need to be connected to so especially more than any other time in the world Coronavirus. People need connection. Okay, so please feel free to reach out and connect with somebody because connection is what drove. And again, it's not necessarily a bad thing that day she went there but drove her into the military frontlines. You know, that's an I, I heard Gary Vee that say this on a podcast yesterday. And I was like, Well, I'm not the only one who says it verbally. But he's like, Look, when a war breaks out, I won't be anywhere on that battlefield. I'll be running the other way. I know it's super unmanly to say, but that's me. And I fully am on board with him. Like I'm the most pacifist. Like I love you. Oh, you want to stab me? I still love you.Like, I don't know. I just I doI see myself my self concept is not a defender, and my wife is super uneasy about that sometimes I'm like, Look, it is what it isnot the most manly thing to say on podcast, but it's true. And, and so that's, that's crucial. It's interesting. When you got a when you recognize that you didn't own anything and the government owned anything.Like what was that? What was that initial feeling like if you were to describe that feeling how you felt in that moment where you essentially, there was nothing of your own because there's lemon, I believe, and men who are going through the same feeling, if not because of physical things that they don't own, but their identity, they don't own any part of their identity anymore because they've given it away to their children to their, their work to their house, whatever, and they don't own anything. They don't know who they are. It's a very similar feeling. So describe that feeling for me.So describe the feeling of not owninganything, it's just really there's this there's this sense ofambiguity that there's, you just got it. So every day is you're kind of just on autopilot, you're like there's nothing that's going to immediately change my circumstances. So today, I have to do XYZ to get through the day. In the military, it's not like when you get fed up, you just put in your two weeks notice and you quit. It's a contract. So you're bound to this contract and the consequences of breaking said contract the paperwork, extensive, but also the punitive actions aren't in sync. If you get in trouble at your job. If If you work like a traditional nine to five job, you'll get like a written warning, you'll get maybe a coaching a plan of action. In the military, they take half of your pay for a month to two months. Like this is your livelihood and thenJust it is insane. The amount of control that I wouldn't say the government as an entity, but actual people, tangible people have over your life to make a decision that says, oh, that look on your face is disrespectful. And so we're going to punish you for it. It is insane. Like, at that it is it is insane. I would never be part of it. And in my in my position and I, I worked with wounded ill and injured soldiers as they transition transitioned, unplanned from the military into civilian lifedue to any kind of medical condition, and a lot of these were mental illnesses. And so I have to make both men and grohmann and grown women fully accountable for like identity.They paid their bills and they clean their house and they mowed their lawn and took their trash out and were at their appointments on time and weren't dressed in the right uniform. It's just, it was too much for me and to, to have these people who didn't care about my job or what I said, or what I did require more time of me away from my family. It was just you know, I, I've got 12 months of this left, and then at least there is like a light at the end of this tunnel, there is an end in sight. If I had four more years left on that, I don't know.Anyone with mental illness, and they would have beenbut but what really drove me through this time was to do the right thing, like I would just know, like, the military is very black and white. There's policies like you just doThe right thing to keep yourself out of trouble and hold these people to a standard and maintain a standard yourself and that's really what got me through the real life's not like the military real life. It's not like there are no rules. But I think that's when I when I got out of the military I was the one thing that I realized is that there is no way people have to treat each other with respect and it was just kind of a culture shock for me really. It's interesting as well, kind of moving forward in your story that you went from this place of like extreme structure, which I have like the ultimate complex of authority in my life, probably due to my childhood as well.parts but like I don't even like I don't love holding to a daily routine or schedule even though like every successful person says it they live and die by and like I don't, I don't like having a schedule because now I'm dictating what I hate it right.For me, I have it some some issues there. But you went from this extremely structured area of life to one. Being a mom. There's no structure there. Even if you wish there was structure, there's no structure with your sleep with your food with changing diapers with your day napping, there's no structure, you can try and create structure and more power to you. And the happiest people that I know who are parents have zero structure, they just go with the flow every day.But, but more importantly, the next kind ofI wouldn't even say career path you went to was writing fiction,which has like it's the opposite of structure. It's like that you go from crazy structure where there there is no coloring outside the lines to you get to create the lines, what color the lines are in, and like you're creating your entire second universe. It's such a for me, it's a weird contrast. LikeWhat was it for you stepping from one to the next? What's really interesting that you say that so you would think fiction is just the imaginary, the abstract and just playing around with stuff that doesn't exist. But actually, the physical craft of writing is very regimented. And so there is a left brain and right brain approach to writing and I was able to, like marry these things together. So I would schedule time to write I would have a writing goal for the day. I, they call it in the industry, we write by the seat of our pants, we call it pantsing versus planning. And so I just pants this entire story. And really what this was, was my coping mechanism of getting out of the military and no longer being identified within an institution.So like, for example, and this is kind of the premise ofMy story, crap hits the fan. And I'm no longer a part of this institution where I have a role. I have a job, I know my job, I know everyone else's job and can rely on them for survival. And to being a mother with all this knowledge and crap hitting the fan. And I don't, I no longer have to just worry about keeping myself alive and other adults alive. But I've these little people that I have to keep alive.And so it was kind of thiswould I make it? Would they make it would we be okay, and so that was the whole fiction, and I just needed to make sure I could do it. Not write the book, but could could be successful at keeping these people alive if crap hit the fan. Yeah, no, I love it. And I think another thing that's interesting about because if you ever played d&d,Do you know what that is done? I know what it is. Yeah. Okay. You look like blank. I was like, does she know what I'm talking about? So I don't want to pretend. But I know. Okay, so so what's interesting about this is I'm somebody who so although is creative space and and the actual science fiction aspect of it, there are creative aspects. Writing is super regimented. But she just described what made her and I don't I don't know why your dad didn't do as good, right? I'm not saying I'm not pretending that but I do think that there's the people who are most successful at creating card games that I know personally and creating.DND are these types of like, everything's in their head and they have to write backstories and for all their characters. The thing that's fascinating isthey're there as she said, there's a level of creativity, but she has to be able to maintain complete knowledge of every aspect ofWhat that person can and can't do in life and should and shouldn't do. They're, they're in positions to a certain things and understand these people. So her her job actually created her,created a circumstance that made that moreable to happen and give her more feedback to create a great science fiction novel or book or story, because she could compartmentalize all those different characters. So it's interesting how you, it's creative, but it's also a structured event, like you said.It's fascinating. Writing is something difficult for me, personally, to express myself. So that's good to hear. But I'm curious The other thing because now we're moving into I want to hit on this before we gettoo far into this but I want to hit on it with the just because it's the time and I have you here and you work in it.I just see the news. So all I can see is the news. And who knows if it's accurate, and there's there's plenty of people out there who escaped both sides. So I don't know. Like nobody knows what the truth is, personally.And you can hex me or whatever. Personally, I choose to live a life that whatever, like if I get too sick, I get sick. If not, if not, whatever, like I can't control too much about my life. So I'm just going to be happy and do my thing.But like, from your experience being on the front lines now of the Coronavirus from the ER, moving out of that, and then into now planning scale, like how what's your been? What's been your experience of the Coronavirus in these circumstances?And I feel bad I will say, but yeah, so every so everything that I'm going to say is public knowledge. There's no there's no kind of behind the scenes.Anything like that, and I'm speaking for myself and not as a representative of my organization. And so, the So, so a lot of people have your stance, like if I, if I get sick, I get sick, just like if I get the flu, I'm just kind of going about my life, right? Well, the thing is, um, and I'm going to use you as just a generic, you know, it's not about you. It's not, you know, I'm going to get sick and that's okay. It's my responsibility to ensure that I'm not going to be the reason somebody doesn't have their grandmother anymore.So it makes sense. So I could have had it already. I could have not had it yet. I don't know. testings not widely available yet. But if you are one of those magical unicorn people who do contract the virus and do not have any symptoms or have like suchMinor symptoms, you don't even notice it, whether it's allergies, or if it's a virus, you could go out and can, you know, continue about your life and maybe somebody's grandmother is, you know, going to the grocery store because she didn't have anyone to go to the grocery store. And then there's an exchange. Sure, you know, and it and it smacks that granny really. So here's so here's my, here's my, here's my debate. I love debating. And I and by the way, I have no idea about what I say is true half the time. Okay. This is my thought process, right?Every level of our life from from government, right because government or is one who said in the standards, we have what's called an acceptable loss, right? We have we have a certainspeed limits based on acceptable loss. We have certain car testing standards based on acceptable loss. We have all of these things based on acceptable loss. And so I get it at some but I could be the reason that somebody doesn't have a grandmacould also be the reason somebody doesn't have a grandma because I pulled in front of I ran a red light or I was texting and driving or just nothing happened and somebody sat on their brakes a deer ran in front of us, right? There's so like living in that type of from my perspective.Any life is too much is not practical. And sofor me it's more of like what's an acceptable loss and do I really believe that not everybody's gonna get eventually anyways? I think if it's like the flu Look, it's like, at what point is Sweden what they're doing just saying, Hey, you guys social distance everybody else out there life is safely but we're all going to get it mastering herd immunity. Yes, there's going to be loss. I'm not arguing whether there's loss. For me. It just seems that like,there's got to be that whatever that number is that we say whatever it is what it is, is it worth? I'm from a financial perspective, is it worth causing mass depression, mass suicide, greater levels of domestic violence? Is it worth causingwhat's what's the acceptable loss? Right now? We're trying to save a few people from a disease which I'm not saying is bad, but we haven't even hit the ramifications of homes going under people being living in streets like that we have no idea the ramifications just like we have no idea the ramifications of what happens if we don't social distance and, and going on, right. So it's, it's a scale this isn't for me. So I'm just curious what your, your perspective is. Okay. So, um, the immediate loss of Yes, everyone's going to get it and those people are going to die are eventually going to die.Is what you're saying, and I get it. I really do. It's the thing of our hospital systems being overwhelmed. people dying that didn't need to die. people having resources to save their lives versus those resources not being available for everyone that needs them. And that is a major piece of the social distancing. The thing about flowersThe curb, like instead of having a big spike, so the big spikes went all at once. And the flattening of the curve is not a flat curve that makes no sense like, so it's just kind of, we just, it's going to be a long haul thing. It has to be a long haul thing for the survivability of people who have a chance. So it makes sense. So if I'm say, I'm 35 years old, I'm fairly healthy, but this thing, you know, yeah, I'm in a neat event. And there are no events available. But if I had event available, I would come out the other end. Okay. But I couldn't get event so I'm just not going to make it.Sure. So I'm not I'm not at all I'm you know, 35. And yeah, chances are, I mean, chances in our age group is super a lot less than Oh, yeah, yeah, there's the I mean, there's that where it's like,anyways, right, but there are people there still people our age that do need the ventilator. Yeah, or I just don'tDon't know what the I guess, I guess my position and you you've seen this from battlefields to to now. I mean, Denver is not a small city it's not a giant city by any stretch of the imagination I compared to in New York. It's not I mean, it's like salt lake compared to Denver. It's not very, not really the same.But I think that the, for me, I guess we don't have enough more information to really know but like, what what's the acceptable loss meter going to be set at of this long term?and How bad is it reallylong term. And and so that's that's the one side of it the other side of it. And this isn't super popular opinion. Don't listen if you don't appreciate this, but there's also reality thatalthough standard, no mortality ratesbeen getting longer as in people have been living longer,um, quality of life in your later years is declining. It's not increasing. So yes, just because we can sustain life, there's an argument to be made to sustain life. But if we're sustaining life with a bad a very low quality of life, is it worth sustaining life? I know is that your choice to make? Well, I Well, is it your so if whose choice to make is it this is a question 100 years ago, the choice to make was, you died because you got a disease. So now we're whose choice is it tokeep people alive, even if they don't want to be alive. And that's still not legally allowed in our country to say for somebody say, I don't want to be alive anymore. Sorry, we can't euthanize you. So we're going the full extent of medical abilities and that's what it is. I don't really have a foot in either camp. It's just all the things that go through my head like okay, where like whose choice is hewhose voices are these make? Because whose choices to make to make it so people can't provide for their family or have to live on street because they can't pay rent. And there's so many financial and fiscal fiscally important questions that are answered in the name of what's the financial cost, right? So for $4 million or something is what it costs for everybody to die. Not score for four, I think it's for 4 million last I looked for in a car accident if you die in a car accident, the acceptable loss is like $4 million dollars worth of worth it per individual who dies in a car accident, which is crazy, but that's the number that the government chose. And so all their standards are if if adding a new seatbelt to a car is going to cost everybody if it's going to cost more thanfour thousand dollars per individual. We're going to save we we're not going to require it. If it's less than four, then we're going to require rightThere's that those are their standards and most people don't know about these standards, but they're there you can go Google. These standards are in every area of life. So what is that standard here? And what's fiscal cost that we're willing to endure? To save our money lives we're gonna save. Okay?So your stance is we need to open up the economy regardless of loss of life due to the virus. I'm not necessarily I just don't know I don't know what the stance is. I don't really have a stance I'm going to work like I say I don't have a stance I just am curious like what people other people's opinions are. You're you're somebody who actually like is qualified to have an opinion.I have a lot of friends who we all think this is all stupid because nobody we know has it but that I mean, that's not true. I know four or five people who actually have had it but the point is like, compared to how many people I know. Have it. Here's a good example for a man. Okay, well, you Salt Lake City, soSuper quick you guys are do you do for a giant earthquake? I'm not one like 5.7 or so yeah, you've had a few you have like one every day. Yeah, but it can happen. It's true though. There is actually FEMA and the state of Colorado, the state of Utah, not Wyoming so much. So, there, there are many entities involved in the planning for the Super earthquake in Salt Lake City.For four people out of context, 80% of the population in Utah is in Salt Lake City in the valley. So when this earthquake hits, it's gonna it's going to devastate everything, and they're what I don't even know the projected magnitude of the big one.But, but these, this is a real scenario that other states are planning for. So we have a plan to take all of the patients that are currently in Salt Lake City into ourhospitals in Colorado. And I think even Arizona is planning on taking some. So we have this plan in place. And FEMA, everybody, everybody, the government, everyone has a plan in place for when this happens if it happens, but they say when it happens.So we know who's in charge. We know who's in charge of routing all these patients who's in charge of taking ambulatory patients out of the city and transferring them vehicle on vehicles into the state but we have all this planned out.I say we but the state government headerOkay, say this happens during the virus.No, we just told you all there. No, we don't leave you all there. You know what I mean? We do we save lives, you know, you know, and when you it's like, okay, let us in

We're switching up the roles on today's pod folks! Our SuperFeast mamma and papa, Tahnee and Mason, take the guest seat as Oni Blecher from the Pregnancy, Birth and Beyond podcast takes the mic to explore reproductive health, the family culture and pregnancy preparation with our fearless leaders. Mason and Tahnee absolutely loved offering their insights in this beautiful conversation, we just had to share it with ya'll. Mason and Tahnee explore: Reproductive health from the Taoist perspective. Reproductive health as an equal responsibility between BOTH the male and female. Preconception planning. Health sovereignty and personal culture. Tips on how to cleanse and prepare the body for conception. The tonic herbs, medicinal mushroom and minerals suitable for preconception. Developing personal and family culture, inviting in sustainable practices that can be carried forward long-term over the lifespan. Children's immune health.   Who are Mason Taylor and Tahnee McCrossin? Mason Taylor: Mason’s energy and intent for a long and happy life is infectious. A health educator at heart, he continues to pioneer the way for potent health and a robust personal practice. An avid sharer, connector, inspirer and philosophiser, Mason wakes up with a smile on his face, knowing that tonic herbs are changing lives. Mason is also the SuperFeast founder, daddy to Aiya and partner to Tahnee (General Manager at SuperFeast). Tahnee McCrossin: Tahnee is a self proclaimed nerd, with a love of the human body, it’s language and its stories. A cup of tonic tea and a human interaction with Tahnee is a gift! A beautiful Yin Yoga teacher and Chi Ne Tsang practitioner, Tahnee loves going head first into the realms of tradition, yogic philosophy, the organ systems, herbalism and hard-hitting research. Tahnee is the General Manager at SuperFeast, mumma to reishi-baby Aiya and partner to Mason (founder of SuperFeast).   Resources: Nourishing Her Yin Event Video The Brighton Baby book Pregnancy Preparation SuperFeast Podcast Episode Pregnancy Health SuperFeast Podcast Episode   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Oni:   (00:00) I'm going to be interviewing Mason and Tahnee of SuperFeast, an ever-growing health initiative based around a variation of adaptogens, medicinal mushrooms, and blends that allow support for the body to return to harmony and thrive. The SuperFeast vision looks at the individual in regards to understanding best practice for educating and spreading the wisdoms of ancient traditions and medicines. Mason and Tahnee have also recently started their own journey in parenthood.   Oni:  (00:25) Look forward to chatting to this synergistic couple for their individual and collective knowledge on attitudes towards health, but particularly preconception health, reproductive health, and looking at the individual, and how social and cultural pressures influence our health-related decision-making processes. We are also excited to hear about their experiences in parenthood and how this new role for them has influenced their own attitudes toward everything in their life. Welcome.   Tahnee:  (00:52) Thanks for having us.   Mason:   (00:53) Thank you.   Oni:  (00:53) Yay. It's so nice to have both of you here. I know that you are not strangers to vocally sharing your wisdoms. You host talks and also have your podcast, and blog-related information. But there's thousands of things I could ask you. I'll have to narrow it down today.   Oni:  (01:11) Well, I want to start with reproductive health and it's such a huge topic, particularly with rising dysfunction around reproductive health. It sounds basic, but what is reproductive health to both of you, or either of you?   Mason:  (01:25) Pretty huge topic. Tahns and I, we've been working together about four years now. I tapped out of being a yoga teacher early on, but Tahnee, being a yoga teacher, her work went into Taoism and my work primarily being in Taoist Tonic herbalism. There's where we connected in our philosophy when it came to reproductive health. In the context of Taoist Tonic Herbs and Taoism in general, there's Three Treasures within the body that we're wanting to tonify through our everyday life, through our lifestyle and through our herbs, Jing, Qi, Shen.   Mason:  (01:56) And we can go a little bit more into those, but that baseline... Think about the analogy of a candle. Jing is like the wax of your candle, and that's associated with your physicality, your skeletal system, but also your reproductive health. And in that reproductive health association, you're associating with the ability to reproduce cells, and heal tissue and heal from trauma, so on and so forth.   Mason:  (02:17) And so, when we're talking about reproductive health, it's not something isolated. It's part of something that's going to be... Yes, it can be sexual reproductive health, but it's also going to spill over into your ability to actually stay physically robust within your foundations up until 80, 90, 100 years old. So, you don't get into that, burn through your telomeres, and your cells lack the ability to reproduce cells, and enter into that death cycle, really nice and early.   Mason:  (02:41) That's where we talk about when you're in your 20s and 30s, and have low reproductive health, yes, you can just be like, okay, well I can deal with that later. I don't want to get pregnant right now. But when you're associating with it, being one of your reproductive health, being associated with one of your treasures, and one of the ideas, in life in general, but we connected from that Taoist philosophy is guarding your Treasures and tonifying, building your treasures.   Mason:  (03:03) You can see that you can't, like in the West, compartmentalise reproductive health and be like, that's fine, don't really need that now anyway, or it's not really that important. Whereas we're like, it's one of the most important things because if the wax of your candle starts... If you're leaking your Jing, and so, therefore, you're not building any wax. You're burning through it faster than you... Than is responsible, or sustainable for your lifestyle. And then, we know, you see that Western flow where people go in lifestyle, you're heading down a route you're getting more reliant on external institutions, drugs, surgeries, that kind of thing.   Mason:  (03:36) Where the path that we like, is one of health sovereignty. It's a longterm conversation. Whereas you take a little bit more responsibility for that, including your reproductive health. That's associated with your Jing, your genetic potential, your lower back strength, your bone strength, your capacity maintain bone marrow, so on and so forth. And so, reproductive health is just a part of who you are.   Tahnee:  (03:58) And building on that. If you think about every cell in the body needing to reproduce multiple times a day, sometimes multiple times a minute or a second. That's what the Taoists identified as one of the roles of Jing, was the reproductive health of the entire body.   Tahnee:  (04:11) So, we really look at this ability to produce healthy cells. This ability to produce a healthy reproductive cell in your body, so an egg or a sperm. These are things that are essential markers of health. So we look at it as like a report card. It's like, if you don't have a great sperm count, if you aren't having a healthy menstrual cycle with no pain and if you're not ovulating and these things, then you're actually... There's something going on that you need to have a look at. And we look at that as in a really holistic way.   Tahnee:  (04:38) It's not that necessarily there's something wrong with you in inverted comma's but it's like that would be a sign or call. From the body that that is something that needs to be addressed and we have such a high stress lifestyle, such a high stress culture. Women are given hormonal birth control very young, men are exercising a lot these days. We've got this culture of activity and athleticism, which we didn't really have historically. If you look back until around the sort of 70s and 80s that we first started to get this physical culture come through and the impact that has on people's bodies when they're working out all the time. It's interesting stuff to have a look at. So a lot of the time we see people that are on really strict diets, they end up with reproductive issues or people that are overworking their bodies and their physiology and they tend to be the ones that maybe in their 20's like Mase said, they'll get away with it because they still have quite a lot of energy.   Tahnee:  (05:30) They can drink the coffee and take the supplements and do the things, but as they slide into the 30's and 40's it starts to catch up and a lot of the time people choose to have children a lot later as well. So you can end up in your 30's and 40's with out anything left in the bank to actually carry a healthy pregnancy through. I study a lot with my acupuncturist who work on how to help people with their fertility journeys and it's not just women, it's the men as well. And I think really tend to focus on women when we talk about reproductive health. But that's something I'm quite passionate about. The men have to take responsibility too. And the amount of times I've spoken to women who are doing the cleanses and taking the herbs and eating all the right foods and their partners are like, I don't want a bar of it.   Tahnee:  (06:13) I think as, as a culture, if we could start to expand the conversation to say, look, reproductive health is everyone's responsibility and if we want a healthy species, if we want to really be the most amazing potentiated humans as we grow and develop, which is what our culture really needs, especially with all the stuff going on politically and socially at the moment. It's on us to create healthy children and that's where this passion for preconception really comes through with us as well. Because we're not just talking about reproductive health as having healthy periods and stuff, it's also this responsibility that if you do choose to have children that you are giving them the best possible start.   Mason:  (06:48) There's a lot to that in terms of men being able to just go bypass going, I'll support you by getting healthy as well. And I'm not one for extremism, so if you're like a lot of the people are like right "I'm going to start preparing for pregnancy" and all of a sudden it becomes this obsession where anything you deem subconsciously as unhealthy, you need to cut out and rararara. But it's just about the direction that you want to go and you want to go into a direction of genetic potential. One that's not leaking Jing, and so men, when we say pregnancy preparation, we don't need to be obsessive, we need to realize that it isn't just like, oh this is just going to be for support. You can get your sperm health rocking and the unification of the parent's Jing is what's going to have a huge contribution basically to the primordial gene of that kid. And so the foundation of that kid.   Tahnee:  (07:32) It's their inheritance. One of the great analogies of Chinese Medicine with this is you might inherit a great car from your parents or you might inherit a bomb. And so we want to try and give them...   Mason:  (07:45) I think the woman has a great responsibility in terms of like housing,an environment where the liver is rocking and so you can handle hormonal fluctuations and you're going to be processing toxicity. You've got a microbiota that's actually going to be... That's another inheritance of the child, making sure that the microbiome is absolutely rocking so your passing that onto the child. Yes, a lot's on the woman but theres lots on the man as well. And you want to be healthy if you're going to be surviving and thriving through those initial years as well.   Oni:  (08:08) What a great a conversation to have with both of you. I wish that you conceived me, in a way. Because I'm sure you probably really looked after yourself.   Tahnee:  (08:19) We're focusing on reproductive and preconception health, but also the wider ideologies around health and how we need to really focus on our individual physiologies and biologies before we start applying these grand perspectives of what people should do or what we should do, what we shouldn't do, and looking at reproductive health as reproducing yourself as the best selves with your cells as time goes on throughout your whole life.   Oni:  (08:46) What do you advise when people are thinking about preconception health regardless if they're soon to conceive?   Tahnee:  (08:54) We typically do hear from a lot of people who are in the early stages of starting to think about a family for the first time. And I think a lot of the time people don't give themselves enough time, so they sort of think, oh, I've met someone and I want to have a baby. And obviously life happens and sometimes we just get pregnant. These kinds of things. And I don't think we should ever be ashamed of ourselves, I've heard from people, they're like, oh my gosh, I didn't do any cleansing before I conceived. And it's like, well that's not always necessary. We definitely, for ourselves, talked a lot about this idea of conscious conception and trying to at least prepare our bodies in a way that they were... Be like having guests over. You want to like get the house looking good and tidy it up and all that thing.   Tahnee:  (09:35) And I think it's the same with... That's how I thought about it with getting pregnant, having my daughter living inside of my body, I wanted to be in a quite a good state of health for that process. And obviously Mason was aware of his roles in that as well. So we worked with a book called the Brighton Baby, which is written by a naturopathic doctor in the States and he outlines this like two year plan, which is really great. So for anyone who's a little bit older and probably closer to having children, that would be something I'd recommend getting a hold of because it really does outline quite comprehensively all these different ways in which you can prepare your body and different tests you can have to ensure you don't have really high heavy metals and these kinds of things because children do take that stuff from our bodies.   Tahnee:  (10:16) So the things that you know you can do just to as a precaution, and that's something we've seen, when you look at the prevalence of things like ADHD and autism and these kinds of things, it's like, well, is this coming from this accumulation of these kind of toxins in the diet? Which is possible because we're eating more of these foods and exposing ourselves to more of these things. So we just think, hedge your bets, you're better off starting, in the best place possible. And then also we think if you're a bit younger you can start to really... Because a woman start to get really in tune with your cycle and start to be more conscious of your period isn't this curse. It's this actual really epic thing that happens in your body every month that has an emotional and spiritual component as well as a physical component. And as men to learn to be more respectful of that flow in women's lives and to really take the time to understand what's going on.   Tahnee:  (11:07) We have such a stigma around menstration in our culture and it's shifting slowly. I think a lot of the younger girls I talk to are a lot more aware of that, but people are so... This idea of sovereignty is really important because you have to take some responsibility. You can't expect a healthcare system to catch you. You can't expect that if you can't get pregnant, you're just going to go and do IVF. I know those are options, but they should be an absolute last case resort in our opinion. We believe in public health care and we believe that that should be available to everyone. But we also believe the individual needs to take responsibility. And so that really looks like... For sure have fun and do things and explore your life and don't be a martyr. That's not what we're trying to say.   Tahnee:  (11:45) But health really is about moderation. It's about getting into the rhythms of nature. So summertime here it's like everyone's feeling a little bit more energetic, a bit more party vibe. Everyone wants to be outside and that's fine. Like in Chinese Medicine, this is the time to do it because it's summer time, we're meant to be expressing ourselves. We're meant to be engaging and enjoying life. Then in winter time we should be sleeping more and resting more and taking more time to be internal and inward focused. And these transitions occur in all of us all the time as well. So we have a circadian rhythm and we're like the birds. We want to be up with the sun and down with the sun and we really push the limits of that in our culture. And we could talk about that all day long, the lights that we choose to use in our homes and all of this stuff.   Tahnee:  (12:27) But whatever curiosity has grabbed you, whether it's diet or whether it's culture or whether it's creating a home that's a sanctuary. Start to look at these things. And this idea of a personal culture is something that we're really passionate about at SuperFeast.   Mason:  (12:39) Brighton Baby was the book that Tahns just referenced. And I think in saying that we worked with a... I feel like it was more like we were looking at it and going, oh yeah, that makes sense. That's good. And what Tahns wasn't mentioning is that she'd had 10 years of healing, like in pretty serious gut stuff. 10 years of liver...   Tahnee:  (12:54) And emotional stuff.   Mason:  (12:55) Yeah. And emotional. And liver cleansing, parasite cleansing for myself. I can go into some of the cleansers, but that had been a big run up. And so basically it wasn't just a... Two years, it's almost a little bit of a rush to be like... Especially to know you're going to be... And there's a little bit unrealistic because you're going to have to go into a huge phase where you're going to have to completely and somewhat unrealistically, like a bandaid, you're going to have to change the direction of your life and your personal culture is going to look completely different.   Mason:  (13:21) And that might be necessary and it's worth it if you're going to be having a baby. However, is that really the context of... You're going to be going and creating a family, we're creating this family culture, we're creating this personal culture and that, in that that talks to the ideological aspects that come in, especially if you are... This area we get to explore cleansing our body and cleansing our spirit or ignighting our spirit, I don't know if our spirit needs a cleanse. But, definitely our emotional selves. In that we become susceptible to ideologies, especially if we go from the point where we've been eating really crappy food and we've been in really crappy relationships and then there's room for extremism to kind of like sneak in, in the preparation stage or if you do get pregnant and all of a sudden you have to kick back and oppose the the unhealthy culture or who you were before in your obsession with getting healthy and protecting your child.   Mason:  (14:10) And it's not the good thing to cleanse, but it's a better thing for you to start thinking about the creation of your personal culture and your family culture. Now hopefully a bit more void of ideology and then the necessity for obsession, exclusion in because you've decided to go and get healthy. So I think that's a real huge one because a lot of people who get into and say, we will look at Brighton Baby preparations. It's just a little bit of, you go on a series of anti-parasitic cleanse, get the viruses out of your body. That's going to have a lot to do with clearing your body of bad calcium and sediment build ups. Which has a lot to do with taking these kinds of things you get into the Msm's, methylsulfonylmethane's, zeolites and possibly taking hydrogen, maybe fulvic acids and these kinds of things which are going to be able to get in and hopefully dissolve these pockets of calcium which are gunking up within organs, within arteries, within joint tissue, within...That's what you think of when you think of arthritis. That's like what I mean by a bad calcium. That's going to be a huge part of the initial part of the cleanse.   Mason:  (15:06) Underneath that you're going to see a housing of viral loads and nano bacteria. It's also going to be that calcium can be mixed in with fungal loads and this is really fun. I guess because I was someone that dove really, really deep in. And you could see I probably did have that orthorexia session of I've gotta be constantly on one of these protocols because there's parasites in me. I'm gonna like... Myself all the time just going into an unhealthy ideological reliance on that as what I do. But at the same time, when you're clearing out those bad calciums, you're going to be maybe hitting some antifungals at the same time, really going to be getting onto like the, the Pau D'arco tea's, Amazonian Lapacho tree, that's the back of that tree, getting into the antivirals like Cat's Claw [inaudible 00:00:15:48].   Mason:  (15:49) And there's many other Western herbs Astragalus's and medicinal mushrooms. Well you're going to start actually doing some deep clearing and at the same time, maybe that's a time to work with a naturopath or someone to see if you actually have parasites or fungal loads or things going on with your microbiome. Then from there you want to start getting in and doing a little bit of all the time you want to be reseeding the gut health and maybe getting in and doing those liver cleanse and getting onto those liver herbs. That's like the next somewhat step. Doing a little bit of a Kidney upgrade. That's going to have a lot to do with your Jing and make sure that you're sleeping. Make sure you're thoroughly hydrated, getting off municipal water, getting a really good filter. Ideally getting onto good spring water. I'd much prefer people getting onto a spring water and that's a huge part of it. Making sure that you're getting into the sun, getting sun onto your reproductive organs thouroughly.   Mason:  (16:32) And these are all things you can start inviting, not with obsession. You can integrate them into who you are and what you're doing already. Rather than just taking that external cleansing identity that's obsessed with health and making that who you are. Because a lot of people here are deficient in Jing, deficient in personal identity. Therefore they start identifying externally with that, with that ideology.   Oni:  (16:51) What I'm hearing from both of you is that to look at what is coming back to nature for you, not just for whatever is trendy at the time. Instead of going, oh what in that ideology suits me? Who am I and then what suits me and then finding things that resonate potentially different traditions. Individual health, and looking in insight instead of looking outside from the shame perspective of something's wrong with me. I need to fix through obsessive health ideologies and getting to learn, what your health identity, but what your identity and spiritual identity is. So Mason, you've got some things to say.   Mason:  (17:29) Basically I like banging on about this topic I can get very excited about the potential you have for cleansing your body. I'm someone that quite often I'll follow the shiny thing, the shiny thing being these idealistic, perfect bodies to bring through these magical little spirits, but a lot of that, they're not truly great, but at the same time does lend itself, one to become a boring person if you get obsessed and a boring couple. But at the same time, what I'm basically driving home here is to not let these... When you're going into cleansing as with Tonic Herbalism, I try and pull these things off pedestals as soon as I can and I'm someone that can talk... people telling me I'm a really good salesman and say I can sell ice to the eskimo's but I can't if I'm not really invested in something, but I also have the vested interest to make sure that these... Integrating something like medicinal mushrooms or tonic herbs or whatever it is, and to someone's local cleansing practices, we want to make sure that it isn't just being sold with this beautiful shiny language, but we're actually able to take it off a pedestal, talk about, get very realistic about what our expectations are when we're integrating these things and make sure that it gets merged with our own intention for our own lives and our own family.   Mason:  (18:39) So it doesn't just come a thing on a list and ambiguous external thing that we should do in order to be right or in order to be valid. In terms of being good parents in our preparation. So I like to add these caveats that when you like, whether it's just yourself or your partner, whoever it is, when you are going down the route of cleansing your body and making sure that you are, you're creating a lifestyle that's going to lead towards real healthy and vibrant self. Make sure that you're not just doing something external and not just following some ideology or diet. Make sure that you are considering the fact that you are creating a family culture, that you have a personal culture and what you do needs to be part of a pattern of what you're going to be doing for many decades.   Mason:  (19:21) For now, not just something extreme that you're going to do now in order to make everything okay. It needs to be very sustainable, right? So think about the diet, oh I'm never drinking again or I'm only going to eat this from now on. Can you do this realistically for the next 50 years? And can you do it within the context of the priority being creating a super beautiful, loving environment, family culture, making sure that you're taking you away from connecting with your partner because that's going to be like one of the most important things. So just make sure that that doesn't create a wedge. Make sure you get your priorities right and just make sure that it merges into your own family culture and not a family culture that's going to be like Instagramable. You know, you can feel this bubble of intention when you're adding things into that family culture.   Mason:  (20:04) Remember that you need to be able to do this for the next 50 years, 40 years, 20 years, whatever it's going to be. So is what you're bringing in and inviting in to your culture, which isn't... This is possibly what you're going to be handing down the way you do things, your intention, the way you cleanse your body, the way you think about food, the way you think about other particular foods. Are they good? Are they bad? Do you really want that to be a part of your culture or do you want maybe greater nuance in how you talk about diet? Do you want extreme rights and wrongs? No. You want just to be able to have beautiful ongoing conversations without extremism and thinking you need to be doing that because that's what you're maybe going to be passing onto your children.   Mason:  (20:39) That's what you maybe pass onto your nieces and nephews if you're not having children. So you may be very precious about that and make sure that you can maintain being excited or doing this thing for the next few decades. Otherwise it's very short term and when you get involved in little short term, things like that, short term diet, short term cleansers, you're burning through your gas, you're burning through your Jing and you're ultimately going to lead. It's not a sustainable way to begin to lead more towards a path of degeneration anyway, which takes away from that land like that potential longevity intention and healthy intention you had to begin with.   Tahnee:  (21:07) And that's what reproductive health is. It's not degeneration, it's regeneration. So it's about ability to regrow the body. Does that, like what I think people forget all the time is like the doctor doesn't heal you. A herb doesn't heal you. No one can heal you. Your body heals itself and you really just have to get out of the way. The block to that healing, which can be physical, it can be emotional, it can be spiritual. Like I'm a huge fan of Seth Godin and he talks a lot about how from a very young age, our children are taught to be obedient. They're taught to look for what other people want them to say as the right answer instead of coming up with their own right answer. Like we can't trust you to know. So you have to find what other people want you to notice that you can be right.   Tahnee:  (21:47) You know, and then you'll be validated and then you'll be approved. And so we do this, people like us and do things like this, right? So we join a club and we become a whatever kind of club you want to join. But you say that a lot in this area where if someone doesn't agree 100% with you, then they get ostracized from the group. And so the complexity and the times when you know we aren't perfect and cause that's human life, right? But we also have to accept that if we want to be sovereign, if we want to be healthy, if we want to like be balanced, we need to actually do the work inside. And that's work for me. A lot of the meditation and yoga practices have been super powerful because I started to realise that yeah, a lot of the ideas of who I was and what I could and couldn't do weren't mine.   Tahnee:  (22:29) They were created by culture they created by family or by even just my own rebellion or response to my life. And so when I started to really examine that stuff, we had a beautiful birth at home. I felt very strong, very powerful through my pregnancy. If I was me 10 years before that, I wouldn't have had the same experience because I'd had so much personal growth in those 10 years that the 30 year old me was able to have that experience that the 20 year old may wouldn't have had, and I remember saying like, I'll take drugs. I don't want to feel anything. I'm afraid of pain. And then I started doing Yin Yoga and I learned to feel pain and then I realized that pain wasn't even pain. It was sensation and sensation was interesting and there was this tapestry of feeling going on in there and oh.   Tahnee:  (23:10) It's actually connected to my feelings and my emotions and dotted auditors when we can really start to grow internally, then a lot of the external stuff just falls away.   Oni:  (23:19) So reframing through experiential learning, I guess.   Tahnee:  (23:22) Yes, which is exactly what you know. If you go and listen to Seth Godin's work on education, it's all around. Don't teach people to look for the answer, teach them to ask interesting questions.   Oni:  (23:32) Okay, perfect. We've covered a range of topics, reproductive health, integrated into overall health attitudes and how to approach preconception, not just in the idea that we'll creating children, but also how to give birth to ourselves over and over again through cell health and regeneration. And I want to ask you too about your own journey in Parenthood and how potentially some of your attitudes have been challenged in that journey or enhanced or expanded. And what was that like for you two?   Tahnee:  (24:05) It definitely had a bit of an idea of what I thought I was going to be like when I was pregnant, which was like vegetarian and all of these things because I was vegetarian for 14 years and then for a few years I to [inaudible 00:24:21] struggled to really integrate it into my life even though I think my body really thrives, eating it, but mentally I had a lot of trouble. My acupuncturist would say that I was addicted to that ideology and I think to a degree that was true. Like this idea for me of what it meant. And even I think the fear of death and participating in death and comfort around death. When I was probably 28 or 29 I did this meditation retreat in Thailand a Tantric one, and we spent quite a bit of time doing death meditations and that was a huge realisation for me of how much I was afraid of that and avoiding experiences with death.   Tahnee:  (25:00) And so I actually found eating meat a lot easier after doing that because I was like, oh, you know, I feel like I'm really part of this natural cycle and I'm studying Taoism, you know, it's so integrated with the earth and humans are this bridge between heaven and earth were supposed to be able to anchor us spirit into this physical body on this plane. It's not about ascension and about leaving this body, it's about actually being here in a spiritual form, but through the physicality of the body. And so I think those kinds of ideas in my late 20's really helped me to transition into Parenthood. And I think my intuition was so strong, like so strong that my daughter came through to us, to me in meditation, she, I knew her name, I knew she was a girl. I was getting all these amazing insight.   Tahnee:  (25:45) But then I was also getting eat meat. I'm going to compartmentalise and put that over there and I'm going to let go. Oh, this stuff's interesting. And I could really feel how my rational mind was interfering with my intuitive knowing self. And I could feel that in birth, I could feel like these waves where if my mind kicked in and was starting to think about the physiology a lot about the body from studying yoga. And I would think, oh my gosh, like there's a bend in my pelvis. Like, why has there been to my pelvis? I have to get a baby through this bend. And then I would get out of that. I need to like my intuitive knowing, which is like, of course this is fine course. Like I felt connected to every woman ever through this incredible portal of birth.   Tahnee:  (26:22) And so I think for me it's really been a lot to do with trusting my intuition and her body's wisdom. Like she'll get a fever and we just let it burn. We let it break and then she changes. You look at Steiner's work and he talks a lot about how illness is like an upgrade for children. It reboots their immune systems and teaches their bodies how to respond and, and she goes through this huge developmental leaps off to these things. So I had to really let go of this idea of like, oh my God, she has a favor. I'm a bad mom. She's sick. And being like, this is really important for her and my job is to support her. So I take time off, I stay home with her, I coddle her until she breaks and then she's fine again. So things like that I think I've really leaned into more and the trust in the body's wisdom and that we don't have to know all the answers mentally that it's just like a lot of the time it's holding space.   Mason:  (27:12) I think you've just knocked it on the head. The main thing that's that's come up. I mean I probably respect the change that occurs in life now more than ever. I don't think I was like a know it als necessarily. I knew everything about parenting until I become a parent. I thought I was going to get that. Those, I think it's definitely been humbling so I'm definitely going with the flow a little bit more made in order to show up the great dad for me anyway, the amount of time more than beforehand. I need to make sure that I've compartmentalised in my life start like a little bit of time for myself so that then I can create more space within the family unit as well so that things can flow a little bit more. Because before that like we were hustling big time.   Mason:  (27:52) I mean we were on before we had Aiya and so to change gears was a bit of a big deal sometimes. Yeah, that's like that's been a harsh lesson here and there in order to find that nice balance between a business that's growing nicely and requiring a lot of energy and then yourself and your own personal practice, your a meditative practice or whatever it is. It's pretty huge. I'm very dynamic in nature. I feel like respecting the fact that I can't just be like okay, in this hour I will meditate in this way and in this area. Like I need space in order to tune into where I am at within for that week or for that phase of my life or for that day. And so the biggest thing I've realised is that I really need to know myself, when you've got the intensity of like, especially now like a toddler, I haven't got a you've got a three year old and right now she's going through something and she needs a lot of space.   Mason:  (28:45) And if I'm not creating a little bit of space for myself, if Tahnee and I are communicating and creating space like space in our relationship, which can be difficult when you've got like 20 business babies and they need time and we've sort of stopped showing up with our family. And so on a practical note and in terms of our family culture, i've started to try and get a little bit more savage with like our time and this is the most important thing and it's, it's my space, our space, space for the baby.   Tahnee:  (29:12) And that goes back to looking after the culture that you mentioned that you're creating. And speaking of which, and thank you so much for joining us. Both of you are so generous with what not only right now today, but through all of your resources. So what are some of your best resources that you can clue us into now?   Mason:  (29:28) Well, in regards to pregnancy preparation, Tahnee and I have a podcast that goes for two hours. We were pregnant when we filmed it. So that's on superfeast.com.au. You can just, if you type in pregnancy, it'll pop up that pregnancy prep and we have... It's called healthy pregnancy is another two hour podcast episode that we did just after we've given birth to Aiya we go through everything that we did, supplementation, Tahnee's exercise routines and all those which just looked like a lot of walking and spaciousness.   Mason:  (29:54) Anyway, a lot of stuff on our pregnancy and then postpartum and birth.   Oni:  (29:59) And that's through your website, SuperFeast?   Mason:  (30:01) All the other super phase podcasts. You can just try and get that on the super face podcast on iTunes type in pregnancy and they should pop up.   Oni:  (30:08) We're so grateful for you, Tahnee, Mason for coming on today and sharing your growing wisdom.   Mason:  (30:13) Thanks for having us.   Oni:  (30:14) And we hope you've enjoyed this episode today on pregnancy, birth and beyond. Tune in next week for more information inspiration, bringing us full circle. You can find our show on iTunes, Spreaker and the usual social media under pregnancy, birth and beyond, and our website at ppmedia.org

Buckle up because life is a great ride. Today’s featured author is American Sign Language Interpreter, half-marathon runner, chocolate lover, and mom of 4, Kelly Brakenhoff. Kelly and I talk about how she got into writing both mystery novels and children’s books, where she finds the inspiration to write her books and more!!! *For An Entire Special Edition transcript of this episode, scroll below. Key Things You’ll Learn: Why she writes mystery novels and why they’re her favorite book genre. Why she started her own publishing company. What inspired her children’s book series. The most important thing you must get right about when you publish a children’s book.   Kelly’s Site: http://kellybrakenhoff.com/ Kelly’s Books: https://www.amazon.com/Kelly-Brakenhoff/e/B07PN7K7T7%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share   The opening track is titled "Good Morning World" by MagicMusic Productions. Listen and download the full track by clicking on the following link. https://magicmusicx.bandcamp.com/track/good-morning-world Resources Mentioned: NaNoWriMo: https://www.nanowrimo.org/   Related Episodes: 33 - "Inspiration, Sci-Fi, & Video Games" with Beth Martin (@bethmart07): http://goingnorth.libsyn.com/33-inspiration-sc-fi-video-games-with-beth-martin-bethmart07   92 - "Roya Sands and the Bridge Between Worlds" with Saryon Michael White: http://goingnorth.libsyn.com/92-roya-sands-and-the-bridge-between-worlds-with-saryon-michael-white 120.5 (Local Author Bonus Special) [LABS] - "The Children of Time" with Victory Parsons (@ReadLiftRepeat): http://goingnorth.libsyn.com/1205-local-author-bonus-special-labs-the-children-of-time-with-victory-parsons-readliftrepeat   150 - "Princess Monroe and Her Happily Ever After" with Jody Vallee Smith: http://goingnorth.libsyn.com/150-princess-monroe-and-her-happily-ever-after-with-jody-vallee-smith   241 – “Highwayman” with MJ Preston (@MJPreston1): http://goingnorth.libsyn.com/241-highwayman-with-mj-preston-mjpreston1   243 – “Fantasy Writing & The Power of Audiobooks For Indie Authors” with Riley Tune (@rileytuneauthor): http://goingnorth.libsyn.com/243-fantasy-writing-the-power-of-audiobooks-for-indie-authors-with-riley-tune-rileytuneauthor   Episode Transcript (Courtesy of Kelly)  :) : Dom Brightmon: You are now tuning in to the going North podcast. With your host, bestselling author, professional speaker, and member of the John Maxwell team, Dominique “Dom” Brightman, and every Monday and Thursday we're going to hear the voice of a different author, sharing their gifts, stories, and expertise to help your charge forward in life. Now, let's get on with the show. And today on the Going North podcast, we're bringing some fabulous humans from across the globe. Today is no different. Today is no different because we got another fabulous author from the Creative Edge Crew, baby. That's right. These are some creative folks who have an edge and not Adam Copeland because this fabulous author right here is not only a fabulous mom, but she's also an American Sign Language Interpreter, which is actually a first for this podcast. You we’ve never had an ASL professional well on his podcast, and her motivation for learning ASL actually began back in high school when she wanted to converse with her Deaf friends and she also, and published her first novel a murder mystery, which is Death by Dissertation, which was published back in April, 2019 as well as Dead Week. In addition to that, a children's picture books series featuring Duke, the Deaf Dog as well. This is a lady of many talents in addition to all that fabulous stuff. She also serves on the Board of Editors for the Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf publication, VIEWS. Let's give it up for the fabulous KB, not KB Toys herself. Ms. Kelly Brakenhoff, how are you today, ma'am? Kelly Brakenhoff: Hi, I'm great. How are you doing? Dom Brightmon: Doing fabulous, doing fabulous, indeed. We got the fabulous Kind Kelly on the show. I'm talking about. Kelly Brakenhoff: You remind me when I was younger, and people would try to make fun of my name. You know, they do the rhyming thing. The worst thing they could come up with was smelly Kelly with a belly full of jelly. I was really hurt though. Dom Brightmon: Or did you even have a belly, at least a huge one? Kelly Brakenhoff: Well, no. I suppose is that if that was the worst they could come up with, that was okay. Dom Brightmon: Oh yeah, we can always call you a tree. Well that that could be worse. Why did I do that to myself? Never mind, that's bad, but don't worry. It's about the sensational Kelly. Would you mind filling in some cavities or filling an introduction and tell us a bit about who is the one and only Kelly B. herself. Kelly Brakenhoff: I was looking over your website and everything. You really have had a lot of inspirational people on before me, and all of the things that you've gotten to do. I was trying to think of what I could contribute to that body of work there. I was intimidated thinking that I'm just a mom and I wrote some books. But I guess one thing that's interesting is that it took me a really long time to write the books. I am quite a bit older, and I've had this career as an American Sign Language interpreter for a very long time. And like you said, I have four kids. I took a lot of time raising and teaching them how to use the washing machine and the dishwasher while they were growing up, until they could fend for themselves and move out. Once they got older, I got serious. I'd always wanted to be a writer my whole life, and once they started getting old enough, I really buckled down and decided that I wanted to do this badly enough. I was going to do whatever it took. I think it was 2014 when I did my first NaNoWriMo. Dom, have you experienced a NaNoWriMo yourself before? Dom Brightmon: Oh yeah, I wrote maybe five words. Kelly Brakenhoff: See, I'm the person where I love that challenge. I'm competitive, like our family. We have these, you know, game nights. Everybody in our family is really competitive. If you set a competition before me, that's the best way to get me to do something. When I read about National Novel Writing Month, I thought, okay, I can write every day for 30 days and I can come up with 50,000 words. I think I can do this. One year I decided to go for it. Well, I ended up with 50,000 words, and then it took me another four years to edit and revise them to make it into my first book, Death by Dissertation. Dom Brightmon: Well, hey, that's frigging awesome. Well, I mean, that's a feat within itself to be able to actually write enough words during that month before it ends, or as it ends, and then it's actually published. It actually takes guts because some folks in the past on this show, they've done NaNoWriMo they've had plenty of books, but they never actually published them for the public to read. That takes guts on your follow through, and it looks like we found a new nickname for you, Competitive Kelly. Kelly Brakenhoff: Yeah, that's right. I mean, definitely it's a great accomplishment to complete NaNoWriMo. Some people do it for their own personal satisfaction, to challenge themselves, but I wanted more. I've always wanted to be an author and I never really saw the path to do that in my life with time and everything. But once I broke it down into the small chunks of like, okay, well I can write 50,000 words and then I can start working on getting them revised. It took me a couple years to get through that whole process and I submitted it around to a bunch of agents and publishing houses. I had a lot of people who asked me to send in my whole manuscript. And I did that for over a year and worked really hard at that. And then, I never could get anybody that was interested in offering me a contract. And I went through this time where I had to decide, do I start something else or do I keep working on this one? And I really believed in this story because of the main character, her name is Cassandra Sato and she moves from Hawai’i to Nebraska for her dream job. Who does that, right? But she always wanted to be a college administrator. She works in a small college in Hawai’i, and she wants to become a president of a university someday. She gets offered the job at this college in Nebraska, but after a couple months they find a student dead on the campus. She has to go and help figure out what happened to the student. Some of the characters in the book are Deaf and use American Sign Language. In the process of writing the book, I realized that one of the things that I wanted to do with this was make people aware of what it's like. You know, with my day job, I work with Deaf people all the time, and I know lots of really cool Deaf people that have really cool jobs and do great things. But your average person doesn't run into very many deaf people. And you might not know very much sign language except for the alphabet and a couple of curse words, and that's it. I thought it'd be really cool to have characters in the book that are Deaf and use sign language. The more I've gotten into it, and the more I've written in the series and everything, I've realized that’s my thing. I wanted to make the world more aware of what it's like to be Deaf or to know sign language. A lot of the feedback that I've gotten from reviewers and readers have said that they really appreciated learning about Deaf Culture. The first book is a lot about what it's like to be a college student who's Deaf. If you imagine that you're in your class and the professor is talking, but you're getting all the information through the interpreter and what that's like and how hard and challenging that is. You know, a lot of people don't think about things like that. And the readers have really enjoyed getting a taste of what it's like through the books. That cemented in my head why I'm doing this. Dom Brightmon: Ah, yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. And I'm guessing your day to day work with Deaf folks, is that really the main inspiration beyond the novel, the mystery novel. Kelly Brakenhoff: Yeah, definitely. In my day job, most of what I do is on call. Well, not now, but usually what I'm doing is on college campuses. I actually attend the classes with Deaf students and interpret what the teacher and the other students say in class, and then interpret what the student says to the rest of the class so that everybody knows what each other's saying. I've been doing this for over 20 years, and I've done 17 different college majors all the way from freshmen English to PhD candidates. A really, really wide variety of things. I've seen really good professors. I've seen really bad professors. I've had interesting classes and some classes that are make me squeamish or things like that.  It's been a really interesting thing. I noticed college campuses have academic politics. I've worked with faculty members too and sat in on staff meetings and everything. You know, some of that stuff, like how they always say like life is stranger than fiction. I always thought this is a great place to have murder. You’ve got mayhem. You’ve got politics, you got all kinds of good stuff here. Some of the quotes in the book, I didn't even make it up. It was things I’ve overheard. Dom Brightmon: Not just killing walls but killing humans. Kelly Brakenhoff: There's quite a few series that are based in college campuses. I'm not the only one who thinks that it’s a ripe setting. Dom Brightmon: Oh yeah. Cause definitely a lot of folks in the spring, some professors fighting for tenure, right? Of course, administration, the politics and hell, that's everywhere. Shoot, whenever there's more than one person, there's going to be something happening. Kelly Brakenhoff: Well, there's something about college campuses. You know how it's almost like a little town within a town. There's all kinds of plot opportunities there. Dom Brightmon: That's right. It's like a little town. It's like an exhibit Pimp My Ride. It's like, yeah, yeah, man. We put a town inside of your town. It's really called Murder Town. It’s a mystery novel where somebody got killed. Yup.. Kelly Brakenhoff: Sorry. I have this visual of a car with a town inside the back. Whatever. Totally taking me off on a tangent now. I'm sorry. I'll come back. Dom Brightmon: Oh no, we're going to go down a rabbit hole, bunny ears and all . . . about that time we had the mushrooms. Let me start. I’m just messing with you don’t’ worry. But it's all good though. It's all good. Out of all of the types and genres out there of novels and fiction, why mystery? Kelly Brakenhoff: Oh, that's easy. I love mysteries. That's been my favorite genre since I was little. You know, Nancy drew, except I thought Hardy boys were more interesting cause they got to do more cool stuff. They get to dig and camp and all this stuff. And, and as I grew up, I read more mysteries. I love to read thrillers too, but I don't know. Those are the things that I love to read myself so that's what I write. Dom Brightmon: Sweet. Yes, indeed. It's kinda funny. It's like whatever we expose ourselves to the most is what we eventually become. It's like you expose yourself to mystery books and then you love them so much that you eventually get to join a business of immortality and write a few of your own. Kelly Brakenhoff: Definitely. One of the good things that's kept me going here in my extended, self-quarantine, our cable TV company added all the Hallmark Channels to our package. We didn't get them, but now we have the Hallmark Mysteries and Movies channel. I've watched this whole channel, all of these different mystery movies and shows. It's been really nice for me to sit down at night. I feel like I can call it research and then it doesn't seem like I'm wasting time, but it's been really fun. Maybe someday I'll try to sell them my mysteries. Dom Brightmon: Heck yeah. Probably got two books cooking right now as we speak. Kelly Brakenhoff: That'd be great. Dom Brightmon: Yes, indeed. Tony, the tiger approved too. That's right. The sponsors didn't pay me, and they are not going to be feeling great. That was Roy. Tony the tiger. I'm about to show him who the real Tiger King is. Let me see. Kelly Brakenhoff: Do you watch that Tiger King show? Dom Brightmon: I've seen photos. I had no idea what the heck it was until maybe yesterday. I'm like, what? In the blue Hill? Kelly Brakenhoff: Yeah, I kept seeing people talk about it, but I didn't know what they were talking about. Then I saw someone listed all of the things in it, and then I was like, okay. I think I'm okay with not knowing about it. I’m good with that. I think I don't really need to know everything. Dom Brightmon: One of the few times or ignorance truly is bliss. Kelly Brakenhoff: Yeah. There are a few times, and this might be one.. Dom Brightmon: Yeah. But the beautiful thing is that you are versatile and yeah, agile in the literary sense. Cause you also have a children's book as well. Kelly Brakenhoff: Yes, that's right. I do. The children's book I've written is for preschool to second grade age. The kind where your parents still have to read to you or your grandparents or babysitter or somebody has to read you the book out loud and, it's called, Never Mind. it's about Duke, the Deaf Dog. Again, using my professional experience. I’ve been around a lot of really cool deaf people for a long time, and it's changed how I look at the world. I think I was telling you before how it took me a really long time to get my first couple of mysteries published. But at a certain point, I had to decide if I wanted to get an agent or a publisher or if I wanted to do it myself. And I did a lot of research for about a year before I decided I'm a control freak, I'm going to do it myself. And I hired an editor and a cover designer and went down that path and worked really hard to learn about the publishing industry. And as I was doing that, I had to file with our secretary of state. Set up my own publishing company that I could publish my own books. I filled out the paperwork and sent in the money. And then about two weeks later happened to be on Christmas Eve. I woke up in the morning and I had this revelation where it dawned on me that, well, if I'm going to start my own publishing company and I'm really going to do this, then I can do whatever I want. Like I'm the queen, I can publish whatever books I want. Then my mind started racing from there. It was like flipping a switch. Maybe some deaf people that I know maybe want to write a book and I could publish their book. Or if something inspires me, I could publish that. The next day I had another idea. There's not that many children's books out there that have deaf characters in them. I started doing research on it. The more research I did, I realized that, especially for this age group, there's seriously three or four books. That's all that have deaf characters that aren't those baby signs books. That’s popular where people have babies and teach them “milk” and “more.” But there's few books that actually have Deaf characters where a Deaf child could open up the book and see that character is like me. Cause now I'm going to have my own company. I put all these things together. And one of the really cool things about the book is that there's photos inside the book of one of my friends who's an American Sign Language instructor at the university. The book has photos of her signing the 10 vocabulary words in the book. As the kids are reading the story, they can also learn some signs. And I thought, well, a lot of the parents of kids that are deaf, you know, a lot of those parents can hear, and they don't know any signs. This way it would be a good thing for them to start learning sign language at the same time that their kids are learning. Then it took off from there. Dom Brightmon: Like a big old rocket ship, indeed. Competitive and creative. Kelly Brakenhoff: You know how you make one decision and it opens the doors to stuff that you never would have thought about before. Dom Brightmon: Oh heck yeah. Pandora's box on a good way. Kelly Brakenhoff: Right, exactly. Once I crossed that threshold and said, this is what I want to do. It was amazing. All of the people that I was able to contact and all the things that fell into place. The book was published the end of December. Seeing the response of people and how they are excited about it. Parents are excited about it. We have videos online. In the book you also get access to videos on my website where Amy teaches you how to do the signs and then she even reads the whole story in sign language on my website. Kids can practice how to do it and learn some signs. Each thing that we do leads to the next step, you know. If you had told me a year and a half ago that this was going to happen, I don't think I would have even believed it, but one step at a time . . . Dom Brightmon: One step at a time, and then the jump happens. Yes, indeed. Yes indeed. And definitely got to give you kudos to that cause definitely write this out. ‘Cause outside of the baby signs books, there's really nothing out there for Deaf children at all. Even deaf people, period. To be honest. Kelly Brakenhoff: A few movies here and there. There's a few. And you know, they're good. There's not very many. Like I think about my four kids. I don't know if you've heard of them Little Critter books by Mercer Mayer. Did you like those when you were a kid? My kids loved those and they each had a little lesson and the illustrations were cute and everything. And I said why don't deaf kids have something like that that they can see themselves in? The cool thing that's at the end of the book, the last section is all the people who worked on the book with me are Deaf. Except for my sister, ‘cause my sister's the illustrator and she's not deaf. But the other people who helped me with the book are all Deaf. And I thought it was really cool that I have their stories at the end. What they do for a living and how they got to be where they are. Deaf children need to see what they can become when they grow up. And I wanted them to see some of the people that I know who are really successful. I wanted deaf kids to be able to see a glimpse of the things they can become. Dom Brightmon: Well, opening up a whole new world for him. That's what I'm talking about. Kelly Brakenhoff: A lot to ask from 34 pages, but we're trying, Dom Brightmon: Oh, don't worry. I'm sure those pages are being multiplied as we speak. Kelly Brakenhoff: My sister is working on the second book. She's drawing it right now. You're going to like this. The name of the second book is called Farts Make Noise. Dom Brightmon: Yeah. But they catch them on Facebook. I'm like, God, this is going to be given the keys. They were killed. Kelly Brakenhoff: Well, we do have three boys, we had a lot of research at our house. Dom Brightmon: Research by force, I'm assuming. Kelly Brakenhoff: Whether I wanted it or not. Dom Brightmon: Yeah, exactly. There was no choice. Kelly Brakenhoff: There's certain things you learn when you're a parent. Definitely. Dom Brightmon: Beautiful. So for those who are out there, who may be trying to write a children's book, what was the best advice you can give those who want to go the children's book route? Kelly Brakenhoff: Ooh. You really have to do research. Children's books are very different than adult books. I had to join a whole bunch of other groups for children and I feel like I'm scratching the surface. I still have a lot to learn. I'm really lucky. My sister did the illustrating. I know a lot of times when you say, yeah, my sister's doing the illustrating, people think, okay, great. But my sister is actually really good. She's not using crayons and making some sketches. She's a professional artist. That was a big relief for me that I could ask her, and she would come through for me. Whereas if you're a person writing a book and you don't have any art skills, especially for picture books that’s hard. The illustrator makes the book. I mean, my story while I like it, and it's great. But the pictures make the book. If you look online and you see the pictures of Duke and the other dogs, they're adorable. They make it much better. And even writing older books like chapter books and young adult books. People think that they're like little adults, but they're not. You have to come at it from a completely different perspective. Dom Brightmon: Right. You're definitely right about the illustration as being everything, the illustrator making the kids book itself. Because if the pictures are bad or they don't match the words then you're in trouble. ‘Cause I remember one time I was reading a kids book and there were these aliens in the book. I forgot what they originally were supposed to be, but I'm like, wait a second, why are they green space aliens? I thought they were supposed to be little insect people. I said, what's going on? Kelly Brakenhoff: Yeah, yeah. Well, and there’s many kinds of art. You know, some of them are anime and some of them are old fashioned. Even my sister, you know, I said, Hey, I want to do this book and I want it to be dogs and you know, what do you think? And she's like looking at me like, you're such an idiot. She didn’t say that out loud, but I'm sure in her head she was like, you have no idea what you're talking about. She was like, well . . . what kind of drawings? Like I said, I'm lucky I could put myself in her hands because she did a great job. But honestly, the pictures are what make the book good. Dom Brightmon: Yes, indeed. Definitely fabulous right there. And that's the power of trusting a good specialist that knows the difference. That's something I forgot for a split second, but you're right. Because there are different styles of drawings in the illustrations. It's like, you know. If you go the anime style route, you're going to be in trouble trying to reach certain audiences with your work. Kelly Brakenhoff: Well, it symbolizes something else, right. Or if you do more of a fantasy type of thing or a science fiction look. People can tell at glance at the pictures, what the meaning is behind it. And even young kids, that's how they get started. If you're watching TV shows, the difference between cartoons and their styles. There's so much thought that goes behind all of those pictures. I took that for granted before I started working with the illustrator. I didn't realize how much thought they put into every single drawing, every single step. Dom Brightmon: Yes indeed. It's true. And I agree with the cartoons and the anime on the TV and everything like that. Seeing how much behind the scenes work is required to put something like that together. You want to respect those that do that more often cause it's like, Oh, I didn't know how much work was required for that. Kelly Brakenhoff: Oh sure. Think about even the Pixar shorts. Those take a whole team of people a year to work on, what, a 15-minute video. We don't respect how much time and skill it takes. Dom Brightmon: Oh yeah. Because folks see the finished product, they don't see the work that was involved. Kelly Brakenhoff: I mean, I guess that's how it is with anything, right. You know, when you're see something done very well, it looks effortless, but we all know it's not. Dom Brightmon: Folks finished the book faster than you as a writer and then they want to know when's your next one? I read that in one day. Yeah, we're gonna find a time chamber for you. Shoot. I'll be right back.  What's on the horizon for Kelly? What's next. Kelly Brakenhoff: Well, I thought I’d be through my third book in the Cassandra Sato series. I'm working on it right now. I thought with all this time at home, I should be writing thousands of word every day. But the news makes me anxious.  The first week or so it was really hard to get going, but the last couple of weeks I've been moving along pretty good. I'm almost done with the next book. Like I said, my sister's working on the next Duke, the Deaf Dog book. Those should both be coming out later this summer. Dom Brightmon: Wow, two more books out? That's what I'm talking about. Kelly Brakenhoff: Well, when we get past all these really difficult times, it'd be great if I had something to show for it. At least a clean house or some organized shelves and maybe a book. That would be nice. Dom Brightmon: Oh yeah, definitely. I'm in the same boat with you. Kelly Brakenhoff: Yeah. trying to stay away from people and keep other people healthy and not be the person who causes anybody else, any anxiety or stress. Trying to do my, my part in this little corner of the world. Dom Brightmon: Some call it the cozy corner. Kelly Brakenhoff: Right, me and my dogs. They're really confused. They don't understand why I'm home all day. They keep looking at me like, are you ever leaving? Like what are you still doing? Dom Brightmon: It's like, we're going to mess up the furniture. Why are you still here? Come on. Darn it. It's like the human's been here for a long time. What's going on? This is something going on. We don't know about. There was this thing with beer, I don't know, maybe it was a chocolate chip cookie. No, that was probably the beer. Kelly Brakenhoff: Probably one of the first days I was home. I was making a sandwich for lunch and I put the ingredients on the counter, and I made the mistake of walking out of the room. One of our dogs is a German Wirehair Pointer. He's about nose level with the counter. When I came back, my, my bread was gone and I was like, dude. What kind of coworker are you? Dom Brightmon: Who's the real breadwinner now? Kelly Brakenhoff: Clearly hiring in this place is bad.. Dom Brightmon: Yes, indeed. Not too bad. The HR office is closed on this one. Kelly Brakenhoff: Yeah. Nobody wants to hear your complaint. Dom Brightmon: Woo. But there's one thing we definitely want to hear and that is the advice you would give to your 25-year-old self. If you were 25 and it occurred in the year of 2020. Kelly Brakenhoff: Wow. 25-year-old self. Buckle your seatbelt and enjoy the ride, because it's going to be a lot of fun. There's a lot of ups and downs, but it's going to be a lot of fun. I had my first son, my first child when I was 25. It got better and better after that. Dom Brightmon: It's still hard to believe. Listening to your voice that you’re old enough. Kelly Brakenhoff: Yeah. I know I have a young sounding voice. When I lived in a different state from my parents and I was probably about 25. Some telemarketer called the house and he said, Hi, can I talk to your mom? And I said, my mom lives in Nebraska, and I hung up. I know I have a young sounding voice, but my mother does not live with me anymore. Dom Brightmon: Yes, indeed. Age could be an advantage too. It's like, yep. Had a child at 25 you get to stay at 25 metaphorically, Kelly Brakenhoff: That's right. I wish my face and my gray hairs and my wrinkles would stay 25 but you know, Hey. Dom Brightmon: You can say gray or some call it silver magic. Kelly Brakenhoff: I know. All the young girls are dying their hair gray and I’m trying to cover mine up. Dom Brightmon: That's the thing. I'm still confused about it. I'm like, why is your hair gray? I thought, y'all don't want to rush that process. Nobody wants to rush that process. Kelly Brakenhoff: You know what's funny though? I think it’s stunning if you have the right skin tone and the right style. Some of those girls are really pretty with it. But yeah, people my age are saying no way. Dom Brightmon: Exactly. It's like, stop rubbing it in. No, I'm the original on the natural hair. Well for those who want to keep in magical contact with a competitive, kind, and creative Kelly, what's the best way for folks to reach out to you? Kelly Brakenhoff: I would love if people would check out my website, which is my name, kellybrakenhoff.com or you can see me on Facebook @KellyBrakenhoffauthor. I'm really trying to post funny things on Facebook. Try talking to people and not be too salesy. Especially at this moment, like I said earlier, I'm an extrovert. I'm dying here. I need people to talk to me. Follow me on Facebook and talk to me ‘cause I'm stuck in my house all day long. I'm not built for that. Dom Brightmon: Yeah. I guess the dogs can only woof so much. Kelly Brakenhoff: That's right. They're very cuddly, but you know, I do like to talk to people also. Dom Brightmon: That's right. Fabulous having you on today folks, and also our Facebook page. Give us some likes, some magical hearts. Check out our Amazon page and check out some of the magical books. Those who love mystery, or who wants something with the kids. Any parting words for the folks still listening, Kelly? Kelly Brakenhoff: I'm really hope everybody can, stay healthy and stay safe. Hug your family and your loved ones and take care of each other. Dom Brightmon: How's it going? You're super special, you awesome human. Since you made it to the end of episode, it looks like you really enjoyed yourself. Since you enjoyed this episode, be sure to share with at least three people in your network and tell them what you really liked about this episode. And even shoot myself or the guests an email and let them know what you like most about this interview that way they can stay inspired to keep pushing out great work.

We’re used to navigating our computing with keyboards, mice, and maybe track pads — analog input. But those inputs work for desktop computers; they’re clunky for XR interfaces. That’s why we need gesture controls ASAP, according to today’s guest, Clay AIR’s Varag Gharibjanian. Alan: Hey, everyone, Alan Smithson here. Today we're speaking with Varag Gharibjanian, the chief revenue officer at Clay AIR, a software company shaping the future of how we interact with the digital world, using natural gesture recognition. We're going to find out how Clay will bring our real hands into the virtual world. Coming up next, on the XR for Business podcast. Varag, welcome to the show, my friend. Varag: Hey, Alan. Glad to be here. Alan: It's my absolute pleasure to have you on the show. I know you guys are working on some cutting edge stuff, so why don't I not ruin it, and just let you tell us what is Clay AIR? Varag: So Clay is a software company, we're specializing in hand tracking and gesture recognition, mostly in the AR and VR space. And we're also tackling a couple other industries, automotive. And our third product category we call Clay Control, which is kind of all the devices that can use gesture interaction at a distance. Alan: Are you doing this from single cameras, or is this from infrared cameras, or a combination of everything? Varag: Yes, so Clay's-- we're hardware agnostic. So it'll work across all those types you just said. It could be one camera, two cameras, or more. And all different types, so we'll work on RGB cameras that you'll find on everyday smartphones, to what you might find embedded in AR and VR devices, to monochrome ones, time-of-flight ones, and so we're pure software and we've worked across a lot of those different types and have compatibility with most of them now, which gives us a lot of flexibility and it's really useful. Alan: So I'm going to be able to look at watches on my wrist in AR, right? Like I'm going to be able hold my hand up and see what the newest, latest, greatest watch is? Varag: It's actually pretty cool that you say that, because that is one of the use cases that comes in often inbound to us, as companies -- it hasn't happened yet -- but those companies definitely brainstorming around how you track the hands even with just a smartphone, like overlaying something. Alan: We actually did it. We did a project just using Google's hand tracking library. We managed to make the watch sit on the wrist, but it was kind of glitchy. It would sit weird. And yeah, it was-- it was not great, but we made it work, it just wasn't sellable. Varag: Yeah. Alan: So this is really a foundational software. And I know you guys are working with some of the larger manufacturers. You want to talk about that -- or can you talk about that -- and then what that might look like? Varag: Yeah, I can speak a little bit about that. So we feel -- like you said -- this is software that really needs to be optimized for the hardware that it's working on. The deeper it is in the stack, the better performance you'll get, and the better synergies you'll get with all the other technologies that are working on these devices. So that's why when I joined the company, really, I made the focus to get as deep into the stack as possible. We looked at the market that time a couple of years ago to look at who is really central to defining the reference stack. What's going to most AR and VR devices? And to me, Qualcomm made the most sense. So we spent a lot of time working with them. As you know -- and some of our listeners might know -- they really do define a l

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Show Notes: Speaker 1: (00:00) Welcome to episode number 22 of the simplified integration podcast, the turnkey myth, Speaker 2: (00:09) Leonardo da Vinci once said that simplicity is the ultimate sophistication and I agree. You see the problem with the way that most consulting groups approach medical integration is anything but simple. In fact, it's the exact opposite. It's expensive, it's complicated and quite frankly it's exhausting. Enough is enough. There are far too many amazing integrated clinics that are struggling. Well, I'm on a mission to change that. What I've come to find from over five years working with integrative practices is that simplicity really is the secret. The old saying of less is more is true. Through a streamlined approach, I was able to create multiple successful seven-figure integrated clinics, and now I'm going to show you how you can do the same. Join me as I share with you the secrets to successful medical integration and practice growth. Join me on a journey to greater sophistication through innovation. I'm Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to the simplified integration podcast. Speaker 1: (01:06) Hey, what's going on, doc? This is Dr. Andrew Wells. Welcome to the simplified integration podcast. So today we're going to talk about this myth of the turnkey solution to integration. And I want to break this down for you because, uh, because I think there, when, when consulting groups and management groups are saying that there is a turnkey solution integration, I think that that is very misleading. So I want to break down what I think they mean by by that and also what you need to be aware of. So this podcast is geared to doctors who are considering integration, but they haven't quite done it yet. If you've already integrated and you were told this was going to be a turnkey solution, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Um, so if you want to listen to this episode, uh, if it doesn't piss you off too much, you please by all means listen. Speaker 1: (01:53) Um, but I think you'll be able to relate to what I'm talking about now. Um, integrating your office is one thing. Being successful and integration is a completely different thing. And what I think a lot of docs, a lot of companies do, and they say, we provide you a turnkey solution with integration. What they're really saying is we will get your office integrated. That's it, and I'm here to tell you that's actually a really easy thing to do. It doesn't take a lot of uh, knowledge to hire a healthcare attorney, set up a new LLC, get a, get a medical entity, started, find a medical doctor and a nurse practitioner who want to work with you in your office. Like if you can do that, then you can create an integrated office that's not very hard to do. It doesn't take a lot of money to do that. Speaker 1: (02:38) It doesn't take a lot of time to do that. In fact, I teach docs how to do that in less than 90 days for less than 10,000 bucks. Like that's the simple part. Now, sometimes I think groups pray on chiropractors who think that that part is difficult to do and I'm here to tell you that part's the easy part. Finding your MD, getting your business set up, all that stuff, like hire someone to do all that stuff. It's not very expensive. Again, it doesn't take very long to do. And while, ah, you're integrated, the question then becomes, okay, now what do I do with that? And so here's the problem that a lot of docs run into is they integrate. And these consulting groups say, okay, now you can do trigger point injections in DME and regenerative medicine and all these other different therapies, rehab, uh, use this equipment. Speaker 1: (03:22) And so doctors are left to try to juggle 15 to 20 different therapies and how to run a medical office with new protocols and new paperwork and new, um, new compliance rules. It's a lot, a lot to go over. Then you have to figure out the marketing, how to do case management, who does case management, how to fill out the notes. So you have this, all of a sudden you've integrated and then you have this insanely complex business model to try to run while carrying this massively high overhead, which is why so many doctors who integrate go out of business the first year because they got this turnkey solution. Um, and yes, they, they were integrated but they had no idea how to run it. And, and that like, that really bothers me because I'm lumped into that group of consultants and management groups that, that teach integration. Speaker 1: (04:10) Um, but there are a lot of people I really offer very, very little value for what they're charging. And so I, I find issue with that, you know, the, the hard work starts, once you integrate, that's when the hard work starts. And here's the, here's how the game has played in so many different consulting groups do this, is they get a doc integrated, they start seeing medical patients and then they realize they have no clue what they're doing. They don't know how to maximize insurance reimbursement. They don't know what services offer. They don't know when to offer them. So they call up their management company and say, Hey, I'm lost. Like I'm having trouble figuring it out. And what does a management company do? Oh, you need help with case management. Come to our case management workshop. That's $5,000 or a, yeah, I'm not really sure how to sell high ticket, uh, regenerative medicine. Speaker 1: (04:55) I don't know how to charge for that. I don't know how to sell it. Oh, you need help with, um, uh, selling high ticket, uh, care plans come to my $7,000 workshop that we're having next month and we'll teach how to do that. So all of a sudden, like when docs start struggling, these consulting groups, their answer is, well, give me some more money and I'll show you how to do that. And so that whole concept of turning a turnkey solution was total BS. And that's why doctors get so fed up with, with integrations because they didn't realize like it wasn't turnkey to begin with. It was actually really difficult. And then they get milked for all this extra money on the backend because they just don't know how to make the office run. And I can tell you from experience, like they're super complicated. If you're not an expert in marketing and expert in sales and expert in business administration and management, you're going to struggle and you're going to suffer. Speaker 1: (05:43) And I've known some really intelligent doctors, very smart, successful doctors who have struggled going out of business when bankrupt lost a bunch of money because again, that turnkey solution really didn't work. And it turned out not to be turnkey in the end. And so, um, and by the way, like if you, uh, if you've ever had the unique opportunity to go to like a consulting group seminar, like a lot of the big box consulting groups will have like mastermind groups or seminars that you can attend. Here's what happens. You go to the event, they sit you down and it's a parade of vendors, one after another vendor after vendor, after vendor, after vendor trying to sell you on their service, their program, their therapy, their case management solution, their front desk solution. So you buy all these different programs and then six months later, the same group has the exact same seminar with a whole new parade of vendors. Speaker 1: (06:34) It's this vendor, that vendor, that vendor. And the question is, well, which of these things do I do and where do the vendors go that were here last six months ago? So it's like revolving door of, of uh, of selling that happens once you integrate. And that's like the dirty little secret of integration that the companies don't like you to tell. I don't want to tell you up front and to hope that you don't figure out upfront because if you did, you would never integrate in the first place cause it would be an a, it's an insane decision to do it the way most consulting groups teach it. And so that's like, and this is like, this is why doctors now are, are like really cautious of integrating and they're skeptical because you've probably heard the stories. You've, you've seen doctors try it and struggle with it. Speaker 1: (07:17) And so I think doctors are a lot smarter now. And so if you, if you've listened to any of the stuff I talk about, you know, I don't talk about turnkey solutions because if you integrate or if you do, if you do one of my programs, like it's going to be work. It's hard work. There's learning involved. There is, there are skills that you need to learn. And I think my job as a, as a consultant is to teach you those skills. Um, and, and so it's not, again, a not a turnkey solution. There's work involved, like, like starting any new venture or any new type of therapy or anything in your life. It's going to take some hard work. It's going to take, there's a learning curve to it, but there is a way to do it. And so on the flip side of that, there are integrated offices that are very successful, that run very smoothly, that don't take up a lot of the doctor's time, um, that are profitable. Speaker 1: (08:02) They're helping lots of patients, but there's a path to that. There's a way to do that. And I'm here to tell you that there is no such thing as a plug and play system that you can put in your office and it magically runs all by itself. And if you're thinking about integration, you want to, you want to be asking these questions like, what do you, what do you provide me for my money in terms of, um, case management, help front desk, help scripting. Like, are these programs included in your program or I'm going to have to learn them on my own or pay extra money for them. Those are all the questions that you need to ask if you're considering integration. So my whole course is called simplified integration for one reason is that we've removed a lot of that BS that comes with traditional integration. Speaker 1: (08:44) We've truly removed a lot of it. And my job is to help you Wade through the, the difficulty of, of integration once you've, once you've integrated again, the beginning is the easy part. The hard part comes once you actually start seeing patients and doing marketing and are trying to grow your practice, that's where the work actually starts. Um, so if you're interested in integration, if you're interested in resources on what it actually looks like, um, please hit me up on my email. It's info@integrationsecrets.com. Uh, go back and listen to previous podcast episodes. I've got some awesome, uh, skills and wisdom I've learned over the years of running integrated offices, successful integrated offices. And I would love to share that with you for the very, at the very least, to give you a realistic expectation of what integration actually looks like. So doc, thanks for listening. I hope this helps you. If you're considering integration, hope that gives you maybe a clearer picture of what to expect. You know, again, it's not like a like a get rich quick overnight type of type of scenario and I hope you understand that and that's why I did this episode. So I hope you found this content valuable. Hope you can use it to help grow your practice and do things the smarter and simpler way. So doc, thanks for being out here. I look forward to seeing you on the next episode. God bless. Take care. Bye bye. Speaker 2: (09:59) Hey innovators. Thanks for listening to the simplified integration podcast. Fact that you're listening tells me that you're like me, someone who loves simplicity and the truth is those who embrace simplicity are some of the greatest innovators. So hope you got a ton of value from what we covered on today's episode. Be sure to subscribe and share with other docs that you feel could benefit from greater sophistication through simplification and innovation. If you've got specific questions that you'd like answered on this podcast or you've got specific topics that you'd like me to discuss, just shoot me an email at info@integrationsecrets.com that's info@integrationsecrets.com.

Ian Ferguson from Jaiya Inc. joins Mason today for a juicy chat about relationships, intimacy and sexuality. Ian works with his partner Jaiya to empower people to own their desires and express their true sexual nature. Ian believes an individual's relationship to their sexuality reveals how they live every aspect of their life. Tune in for a truly fascinating and grounded chat about the things many of us don't often address let alone talk about!   "having sex is natural, but making love is an art." - Ian Ferguson   Mason and Ian explore: The challenges couple's face postpartum, how having a child can interfere with intimacy and sex drive and what to do about it. The erotic language of arousal, discovering what turns you and your partner on and learning how to communicate it. The limerence period. The lack of communication and awareness around sexuality in general. The five sexual blueprint types - the energetic, the sensual, the sexual, the kinky, and the shapeshifter. The Erotic Breakthrough Course; how to embody, heal and expand your sexual blueprint type. Sexuality as a common thread amongst us all - "Where did we all come from... We all came from sex." Ian Ferguson   Who is Ian Ferguso ? The consummate Renaissance Man and a lifelong student of Human Potential, Ian Ferguson has been featured on Good Morning America, Anderson Live, VH1, and in Details magazine. From his youth as tap dance king of Ohio to directing and performing in Off-Broadway theatre in New York; from building a seven-figure design business serving celebrity clients like Drew Barrymore, Ashton Kutcher and Michelle Pfieffer to co-creating Jaiya Inc., an international company with the mission of uplifting sexuality as something to be openly and honestly discussed, celebrated and enjoyed, Ian has been driven by his desire to create a world with freedom of expression for all, a world where people are more connected to the truth of their bodies and each other through authentic, honest communication, and love. In 2007, Ian partnered with Jaiya, an internationally recognized, award-winning sexologist and best-selling author to co-found Jaiya, Inc., spreading the word about Jaiya’s revolutionary framework, the Erotic Blueprint Breakthrough™, designed to radically transform how we talk about and experience sex.   Resources: Ian's Website Erotic Breakthrough Quiz Ian's Facebook Youtube   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Mason: (00:00) Ian, thanks so much for being on with me, man.   Ian Ferguson: (00:02) I'm excited. This is good. Good thing we have a bit of an Australian crew down there from some other podcasters, we've got some coaches down in Australia.   Mason: (00:12) Cool.   Ian Ferguson: (00:12) So the people who know the work that we're up to, it's the U.S., Canada and Australia is third on the list of the most people who have taken our quiz and dropped into what we're up to.   Mason: (00:24) Yeah, I can imagine. It's interesting because Jaiya, your partner... And it's been interesting because I didn't realise when I heard about her back when that you were working side by side, or just how intimately your working and partnering side by side, which is cool because I want to ask a couple of questions in terms of working together that intimately because Tahnee and I, I feel like we do a really good job. Tahnee's the GM of SuperFeast and we're working like every day. You've got a kid as well. How old is your...   Ian Ferguson: (00:57) 10.   Mason: (01:00) Wow, you've got a proper child, not just a three-year-old wobbly child.   Ian Ferguson: (01:06) You're in a three year old zone?   Mason: (01:09) I'm in it. I'm bloody in it, man.   Ian Ferguson: (01:12) Well you're, you're starting to hit that place where it's... Well, in my experience it started to get a little bit easier. The first two years? Whew.   Mason: (01:21) Yeah, it's going like in both directions. It's a tonne of fun. It's really getting interesting and it's wild having all these conversations, but no, I don't doubt that there's a lot of people following both of your guys' work and like a lot of Jaiya's work, which is, we're realising now, is a lot of your work as well, which is fun.   Ian Ferguson: (01:44) Right. I didn't really start taking on more of the front face role until about five years ago. I partnered with Jaiya just romantically and was supporting the work in some ways financially, producing some of the film work, and also being a test subject because everything that we talk about is stuff that has either played a really fundamental role in our life, in terms of improving our sex life and our connection. After our child was born, we had a major crash in our relationship. We had about a year and a half of the blissful limerence stage, we're in love just can't keep our hands off of each other, all the passion is alive. We had a child, the economy crashed and I moved from a place that I had become really entrenched into, into this cohabiting domestic lifestyle.   Ian Ferguson: (02:41) From stress and just total hormone imbalance I crashed, my libido tanked, my confidence in the relationship started tanking. Jaiya is a sex educator, our sex life falls off the map from going from like 100% down to 10%. So she's a sex ed educator, has all the sex techniques in the world at our disposal and we can't figure it out, like many couples who are in that situation of either just that period after you've been really deeply connected and all of a sudden it's not working the same or these big life circumstances come up and it's all different.   Ian Ferguson: (03:17) So we had a three year period where we were deeply, deeply struggling and in that period and our commitment to each other, we just started to really reconfigure how we were relating to each other because it wasn't working. So we went through an intense experimentation stage and that's where I really started to get much more deeply invested in the work because I saw the turnaround in our relationship and I'd always wanted to dive more deeply into the work of helping people live their fully expressed lives, feeling fully alive, and it just seemed like a complete perfect dovetail and a new transition for me. So three, four years into the relationship, I really took a deep dive into it. Then the last five years I've been basically just on the front lines with her in terms of everything from teaching, enhancing the models and frameworks that we're working with, and then building our coach community and just getting the word out there.   Mason: (04:20) And going through those three years to get there and sticking it out obviously then... Because that's all with like you know, when you're going through something, when you're really going through it and you're like you're kinda like... It's like, "All right, cool." A lot of people just don't hold on or a lot of people just won't go deeper in order to find their way out of that maze. Obviously for you guys that period would have created a knowing and loving of each other that's allowed you to work together I assume, but was it so... So was it... Because you're not running off endorphins anymore, you've got a child in the house. I was talking to Tahnee about how she heard Jaiya's, like a bit of her postpartum, what was going on, like having a tear and needing the internal massage, which Tahnee asked me to ask you if there are any details on that, because we've got a lot of mumma's that tune into the podcast who might be interested on that level.   Mason: (05:15) So maybe we should stop there and just talk about that, but what I was just wanting to know is was it that experimentation and looking in for different shades that you could bring into the relationship? Was it trying to get to know yourself and then you couldn't just take for granted that, "Oh yeah, I know myself on more of a surface level and that's enough," but "Holy shit, if I'm going to have this deep a relationship and this new life that's seemingly domestic... As you say, which seems like there's shackles, which it's just an external thing to rebel against. It's nothing... You don't really know yourself and know what you want it's not going to be that satisfying.   Mason: (05:56) So I just want know more of the details of postpartum and for you as well, what you went through during that time to really keep you bolstered and then coming out of it, was it that that experimentation and really getting to know yourself that led the way?   Ian Ferguson: (06:12) So there was the perfect confluence of events, working both angles here. One was the perfect confluence of events that was leading us down the dark tunnel, which was at the edge of us separating our relationship and figuring out how to co-parent as separately and then riding and in tandem with that was our dedication also to, "That's not how we want things to go. We know we love each other. It's just the passion is not there, the connection has dropped off," and being committed to figuring out how to reinvigorate that and along that line, Jaiya in her work as a sexological body worker and at that point, being fully in this work for over 12 years working with thousands of clients, she started to recognise the patterns in people's sexuality where she would be working with one client and she would get turn-on with a certain kind of technique or a certain kind of approach to their arousal or the way that they could drop in with someone.   Ian Ferguson: (07:19) Then she would use that same technique on another person and it'd just be a flat line, there'd be nothing. This is where the Erotic Blueprints really started to crystallize for her and start to download. So he started to see these patterns and then she started to experiment in her client sessions with these ways of approaching people in the arousal patterns and the sexuality and their ways of bonding with someone else, and it started to crystallize and form into the framework that has now become the Erotic Blueprints. Part of the experimentation that I talk about, it was us experimenting in our own sex life with each other, and what we discovered, and I'm sure we can drop into the blueprints and really dial that in for your audience of what the hell I'm talking about, but it's basically your erotic language of arousal.   Ian Ferguson: (08:11) Once you understand what you're turned on by, how you're turned on and what you're not turned on by and what turns you off, then you start to be able to have this language of articulation, of being able to share with your partner and know. What we discovered was, at the time, Jaiya was primarily sexual, partially because that was very front and center in her biochemical makeup, in her desire pattern was her sexual blueprint and secondary was energetic. So sexual, she was craving sex, was starving for sex. My libido had tanked on a biochemical front, testosterone was down, we were doing co-sleeping with our child, which was also boosting oxytocin and bonding chemical, which is just like bonding but not sex drive and sexual, as we discovered later, was basically zero on my blueprint map. So she's a sexual energetic, I'm a sensual kinky.   Ian Ferguson: (09:13) So she was coming to bed at night and she was grabbing my crotch and she was trying to seduce me by going and taking strip classes and coming home and getting in a g-string and doing sexual moves in front of me and trying to get me turned on that way. At one point that's exactly what she did, and my comment to her was, "You don't need to do that. That's so obvious," and that was not the right thing to say, and it spoke to a truth for me, which at the time that was not something that was going to get to my arousal. I was coming to bed at night and I would slide up next to her and I would start to cuddle and want to relax and have this transition moment and then discover what unfolded in our eroticism through that connection and bonding.   Ian Ferguson: (10:03) When I came in and cuddled with her, she was like, "Oh great, another night we're going to roll over, we're going to go to sleep. I'm not going to get laid tonight." So she's just like moving into depression, rolling over, crying herself to sleep. I want to connect. I want to have that kind of intimacy with her. I had already been married once and our sex life was one of the fail points in that relationship. So I started to spin and go into like, "Okay, here we go again. I don't know what to do. I don't have the confidence to step up and be present with my partner in a way that's going to satisfy her." So it was like Jaiya was speaking American English and I'm over here trying to speak French, and we think because we speak this different language that, "Oh, we must not be in love with each other."   Ian Ferguson: (10:54) Once we started to discover the blueprints, then we can start to actually communicate to each other in the way that the other was going to be turned on. That's when the deeper experimentation in our own relationship started to move into our own expansion of, "Okay, how can I expand and meet my partner in her sexual and her energetic approach to sexuality and how can she start to discover more about the sensual and the kinky approach to sex?" That's where that started to come together. The whole piece around the vaginal tear and the biochemistry end, we can talk about that in a minute, but that's where the blueprints started to take formation.   Mason: (11:33) What's it's really interesting in that there's this obviousness, in say, in certain instances where someone just wants on, and the other is feeling like they need a little bit more, like they need some cuddling and then going in many different directions. However, it's so blatantly obvious to you a lot of the time, which is one of the... When it's happened to me I know that Tahnee would want something else and I'd theoretically know how to approach it, but just have this block of languaging and just couldn't do it, which it feels sadistic in the sense of like, "Who am I? I know that I need to just approach it in a little bit of a different way. Why aren't I doing it? Why can't I do it?" There's that huge block.   Mason: (12:27) The blueprints I actually heard about probably about five years ago when Tahns and I were first starting out and we'd just have these conversations. Obviously, just early on in the relationship it's just like, "Oh that's interesting, and that's interesting." It's not like.. There wasn't too much on the line then because it was just flowing up, moving into when there is a child in the mix, all of a sudden, I think what becomes really highlighted, as you said, is like jewel blueprints that come up, which is something that happens in relationships, just like, "Hang on, you are super sexual and now you need something else, like energetic. What is that?" and there's no... All of a sudden it's like, "Why aren't you the same," and, "What's wrong with me? What's happened here?"   Mason: (13:16) So that's one thing I really, really, like it's always stuck with me about the blueprints and I've got to get in again and take the... Is it a quiz because we got a [inaudible 00:13:29] book.   Ian Ferguson: (13:29) There's an assessment. There's a full assessment. So you take the quiz and then the quiz kicks out what type you are. It also gives you a rating of percentages. So it's not just your primary because you use secondary, tertiary, your quaternary, I don't know what that is, and your fifth because there's five of them all together.   Mason: (13:46) I've had a bunch of friends really sing its praises and I dialed in. Without doing the quiz I just dialed into knowing myself because I always have a hard time doing quizzes and things. Even though there's no problem like, "Don't label me," I'm always worried that I'll change my mind and that it won't get reflected in the quiz results.   Mason: (14:06) Anyway, it's kind of... I've known a bunch of people who are grounded and know their shit who have really just... it's made for a really good talking point and understanding of themselves. Therefore a way to communicate with their lovers.   Ian Ferguson: (14:20) For sure. There's several threads coming up from me as we talk about just this, the context here. One is the piece of new to relationship, most people revert to the sexual way of relating. You're in that limerence phase, there's all this turn on, your hormones are pumping and we revert to sexual. So then we abandoned or just forget about those aspects of our sexuality, which may actually be more our primary drivers.   Ian Ferguson: (14:50) So as the limerence period, which is that first flush of romance zone, which lasts six months to two years fades, it's just like what most of us do in so many other aspects of entering into a romantic relationship. Let's say you're the type who was going to yoga five times a week and you have your dance thing on Thursday nights and you hang out with your buddies on Saturdays. You're now in your relationship and a lot of time and dedication and focus goes into this new romance, you drop away, maybe you get to yoga once a week and you hang out with your buddies every four weeks and all these elements that were really nurturing to you start to drop away. Then six months, two years in, you start to go, "Well wait, where am I in this relationship?"   Ian Ferguson: (15:38) So we've set up this expectation with each other that this is how it is. We're sexual, we get together all the time, we're spending all of our time together, and then the satisfaction of that, the intimacy gets too close and then it becomes the sort of like sense of a trap. That's where starting to utilize the language of the blueprints gives you the empowerment and the language to bridge the gap.   Ian Ferguson: (16:02) So the other aspect of this, which the thread that popped to me when you're talking about your progression in your relationship is this problem with sexuality in general, which is people don't talk about it. Like we do to some degree in our intimate relationships. I know people, because of our clients, who have been in relationship for 20 years and they never talked about sex. It's supposed to be automatic, it's supposed to be natural. Yes, it's natural. So having sex is natural, but making love is an art.   Ian Ferguson: (16:35) So being able to articulate how you make love gets into all the fine detail of what pencil you're using or brush you're using or the type of paint or the way you're mixing the colors together, and you don't have the facility in any Western culture that I'm aware of where you're given a deep language of how to express and articulate needs, desires, hopes, wishes, turn-ons, turn-offs in a way that is rich and actually truly descriptive and or not triggering.   Ian Ferguson: (17:13) So if I'm a sexual and I'm used to speaking overtly sexually about how I like my partner's breasts and her ass and my language, that's the limit of my language, and then my partner turns out to be an energetic sensual or kinky and that's my language, it's very likely just to shut that person's system down and just cut, cut off the communication.   Mason: (17:42) Well, I relate exactly to that scenario and at times obviously it changes, and that's where I think it's going to be, I'd like to jump in a little bit more in and do some of the blueprints because it's like, "All right, great, we know that at times your energetic and what that means. However, I'm over here sexual," because I feel like that's like the quagmire.   Mason: (18:06) That's why I love how thoroughly you and Jaiya are going through this. It's not just like, "Here's your sexual blueprint. Now have fun everyone." It's like, "Well now what? I've got my needs over here, saying I'm feeling really sexual and you've got your needs. I just want to pull some hair and go for it and you need to energetically feel me." It's like how do we bridge that? So is it as simple, in your approach, is it just like, "Let's communicate. Let's talk about our needs?"   Ian Ferguson: (18:49) So the blueprints are the introduction to a pretty broad framework. It that has the blueprints, it has your stages of sexuality and it also has the four pathways or blocks to sexual health and vitality. So there's an ecosystem that's working here and just like anything that is really rewarding, it's a 360 degree panoramic, full spectrum look at who we are and to add another complexity, our sexuality is shifting. You're without a kid, without your domestic needs and all those things weighing on you, your sexuality may be in a very different place than when you've got a newborn and you're dealing with all of the things that come up there or aging or an accident or a breakup in a relationship. There's so many things that can affect our stage of sexuality.   Ian Ferguson: (19:54) One of the routes to this, to you, anybody listening, is a willingness, right? So if there's a willingness to start to get into the other person's world, then there's a deep hope that you can really start to expand into that person's blueprint and feel it and understand it. So it's the ability, more than communication, to get to this empathetic convergence where you can really start to, even if it's not your turn-on, you can start to feel the person's turn-on through that approach and give spaciousness to it. I feel like it'd probably be better for everybody listening for us to dive into just articulating what the blueprints are at this point a little bit.   Mason: (20:42) Yeah, it sounds good.   Ian Ferguson: (20:43) Great. So there's five blueprint types. There's the energetic, the sensual, the sexual, the kinky, and the shapeshifter.   Ian Ferguson: (20:52) The energetic really thrives and tends to get turned on by anticipation and tease and distance. They tend to also look at sexuality in more of a spiritual or transcendent way of connecting with another person. So those are some of the positives and the superpowers of the energetic. They could orgasm by not being even touched, by me standing across the room from Jaiya 20 feet away, I can play with her energetically and she can start moving into orgasmic experience. Really a mind bender for somebody who's not energetic, "What's going on? I don't even know how to relate to that." So those are the superpowers of the energetic and the shadow of the energetic can be too much closeness, too fast, can completely shut the energetic down. So you move into the collapsing of the space ends their arousal. The anticipation of the kiss of like I'm inches away and we're holding that space is where the juice is, and then when I move in for the kiss, perhaps an energetic might be like, "Oh, fuck. It all just went away."   Ian Ferguson: (22:12) This is a generality, not always true, but often an energetic can have a history with sexual trauma and that is where that collapse of space and where that breaking of the boundary is the thing that shuts down their sexuality. An energetic may also give over their boundaries too quickly. They may have very little sense of their own container and what they need. So they'll acquiesce to their lover and that will just reinforce their shutdown and their lack of boundary and they'll do this because they're so energetically connected to their lover that if they disappoint them, they'll feel that disappointment deeply. So that can be some of the things that can be challenging for the energetic type.   Ian Ferguson: (23:00) Essential type.   Mason: (23:01) Makes sense.   Ian Ferguson: (23:03) Yeah, and if you have any questions about it, just interrupt me.   Mason: (23:06) No, like it's so on. Honestly I know it's just on point. Anyway...   Ian Ferguson: (23:14) Perfect, and the thing about when people hear about the energetic, we get a lot of commentary is like, "Oh my god, I didn't even know this existed. I've been feeling broken, wrong, like I don't even know who I am," their entire life and then they hear this spoken and they're like, "Oh my god, that's me. I had no idea."   Mason: (23:33) That's so full on. We haven't really brought it up, but a huge context of just us having this conversation is seeing within the flow of your life, seeing your libido in a level where you can be like almost, I don't know, yourself, proud of yourself. The libido is who you are and your sexuality as a part of who you are. We go into that conversation with the herbs consistently. That's why, when you want to have conversations like these, to see like how do we actually... Yes, you've got like good herbs in like the Jing herbs in there, but that's just starting or just helping something along, but this, it's quite often a... And that was what it was like for me, the biggest penny dropping. I haven't really gone and done my blueprint yet.   Mason: (24:26) I feel like I've been, I don't know, a little bit apprehensive, it's probably... And to know myself but I don't feel that at all anymore in that area. I'm really, really happy to go there, but just in that nature of that energetic, that existing and that possibly that could come forth rather than another blueprint could come forward, this is very game changing stuff. This is what I like. As you said, and then that leads to you being able to have a smooth lifestyle where libido can actually flourish rather than trying to like, "If I take his herb, I'll have a libido. If I get rid of my estrogen dominance, then I'll have libido." It's like that's going to get so far, but you need a dialogue going forth, right?   Ian Ferguson: (25:07) For sure. Yeah. Yeah. My mind starts to go off into all the places I could go on that, on a tangent.   Mason: (25:14) I know and then I'm taking you off course. Let's stop with a distracted, we'll go back to the blueprint.   Ian Ferguson: (25:19) Cool, and out of that I think we'll be able to touch on some of the things that you're addressing there. So the sensual blueprint, they bring the artistry to sexuality. Their sensual is all about the senses being ignited. So sensual could have a strawberry and eat that strawberry and go into orgasmic states. Sensual is the kind of person when they're eating, you just hear them like, "Hmm, Oh." They like the textures of the clothes, they need the environment to be really dialed in for their system to relax and for them to open. So a sensual type needs the... We talked about an energetic already. So the sensual type typically needs to relax to open to their sexuality. So they can get down regulated and then they can connect. Superpowers of the sensual is they can have full body orgasms, like when they're in their body, they're connected fully.   Ian Ferguson: (26:19) The challenges or the shadows for the sensual are when the environment or the atmosphere is off, music is too loud, the lights aren't right, they've got the interior brain chatter of, "Oh my god, I didn't return that call. There's a sock on the floor. Oh, that means I got to do the laundry. I got to do this thing." So the disconnect goes into the brain and completely disassociating from their environment. Smells, in terms of receiving from a lover and they can be like, "Oh, they're down there so long, their neck must be getting uncomfortable. Do I smell down there? I don't know if bathed." So they just get lost in all of that minutia and then they can't connect and they can't drop in.   Mason: (27:01) It's one obvious shadow for sensual, for me anyway, in thinking about it. That's super interesting.   Ian Ferguson: (27:10) It's not an obvious shadow.   Mason: (27:11) No, not for me, not in my perspective on that. I'm like, "Oh wow." I just like, "Yeah," but it makes sense that it's like that, "Brrr," chatter is in stark contrast from the sensuality. I guess it's like the balancing act of that blueprint.   Ian Ferguson: (27:26) For sure.   Mason: (27:27) So it makes sense on that level.   Ian Ferguson: (27:29) Yeah, and then a comparative between energetic and sensual would be the type of touch that they enjoy. I know some people may be watching this and some people may be listening, so the energetic, again in that spaciousness, they can feel those energies off the body. So the hairs on the skin, the very edge of the fascia, just like that outer layer of the epidermis, that can be a total turn on with very light and very slow touch. They can feel that energy six inches, 20 feet away. For the sensual, the touch tends to be contouring, more like massage into the tissue. Also still slow and really feeling, feeling everything deeply, but much more physically connected. So the sensual really likes to collapse that space, get into the cuddling and the nuzzling and the deep connection.   Mason: (28:24) All right, yeah.   Ian Ferguson: (28:27) All making sense is it?   Mason: (28:28) Yeah, it's definitely crystal when can... Hey, I just started thinking because I'm an overthinker, so it's just got me thinking as well.   Ian Ferguson: (28:39) Cool. Then the sexual is what the Western stereotype is about sex and sexuality. They love genitals, they love nudity, they love getting right to business. Sexual superpowers, they can go from zero to 60 in one second flat. It's just like, "Oh we're on, this is sex, we're going to have an orgasm." They want everybody who's involved in the situation typically to have an orgasm, that means success, "We've had a sexual encounter I've had an orgasm, we're good." In opposition to like the sensual, the sexual needs to have sex to relax. Sex is like life itself. If I'm not having sex, I'm not living, I'm don't feel fulfilled.   Ian Ferguson: (29:26) The sexual who's really sexually fulfilled tends to feel really empowered in work, really feels bold and emboldened and seen. They really need to be seen for their eroticism and accepted for their high libido, for their high desire to just have sex to feel accepted, to feel wanted. So those are superpowers for the sexual and they bring the fun to sex. Like there's not all the story, there's not all the busy work, there's not all the confusion. It doesn't matter if the lights are too bright or the music is, "We're going to fuck, this is good." So they're just like all in.   Mason: (29:59) And that's super like it's perpetuated... Is it like in the West, teenage boys, that's like you click into the association of that because we've all got an element of these blueprints inside of us and so that either brings like you're a dominant alpha because that is where you thrive and that's just commonly like, "Well that's what sex is in the West." Then there's the other part of it, just like you're a male especially, , just from my perspective and you're energetic and those sensual aspects of yourself are not quite up there, that's very confusing, right? That's like, "Well, I'm just no good at sex."   Ian Ferguson: (30:46) Right.   Mason: (30:47) But then that's also what's present at the beginning of relationships, as you were saying, right, that sensual nature, it's a little bit easier for everyone to connect on that level because it's a common commentary on sex and then boom, all of a sudden things change. That must be one of the most common things I'm assuming, but that must be one of the most common things that occur, is a relationship six months in or a year in, and then all of a sudden you almost need to enter into a completely new relationship and it creates these hectic speed-bumps trying to just move past just that whole expectation and just be like, "Oh great. Yeah, cool. Let's do it as we always did, let's just fuck. What happened? Why don't we do that anymore?"   Ian Ferguson: (31:27) "What happened. Why is it not working?" It's like driving blind, right? Again, back to that language piece, it's not something that people talk openly about, it's not something people... Usually our mentors are anything from our peers, parents, porn, religion, the mentorship that is available to anyone around this realm of sexuality is not only often full of shame and suppression, but sometimes it's downright full of misinformation.   Mason: (32:02) Yeah.   Ian Ferguson: (32:02) You're given some tools and you're given a hammer to do something that you need to accomplish with a screwdriver, and it's just because there hasn't been this open dialogue and even with people who have an open dialogue, they don't have the distinctions to really dive in to the full range of human sexuality. It even happens within the communities that congregate around sex and sexuality.   Ian Ferguson: (32:28) So one of the things that I'm most proud of about what we offer in our community, in our courses, is this full range of sexual expression and acceptance. Nobody listening is broken, wrong in your sexuality. We walk around, many of us, feeling broken, wrong, unseen, ashamed of who we are and this creates more of this hiding, more of this separating and silo-ing and, "I'm just going to suffer here alone in my silence." And back to the community thing, it's like there are great tantra communities, there are great BDSM, kink communities, they're great swinger communities and they also tend to silo. They also tend to be like, "We're this type of person and we're going to hang and we don't understand the kink person over there."   Ian Ferguson: (33:27) So what happens is the people who've got a kinky person and an energetic person, the energetics typically going to be more guided towards like a tantra community, the kink person's going to be walking into the tantra community and go like, "What is this weird stuff? I'm not into this. No turn on here from me." More disharmony within the relationship and the connection, the kinky is going to take the energetic to the kink environment and they're going to be horrified, likely full of judgment of like, "Wait, sex is supposed to be spiritual and connecting and slow and full of this energetic connection to God," and they're going to look at the kink community and think, "What are these people doing?"   Ian Ferguson: (34:10) This is what happened with Jaiya and I. I haven't talked about kinky yet, but because of her tantra and energetic background, had really big misconceptions and judgments about the kink community. She had 15 years of being immersed in the tantra community. and sex was about enlightenment and spiritual connection, and this is another shadow of the energetic, where they can be judgmental or have a sense of superiority about their sexuality versus all the other types of sexuality. So that that can then cut them off from this wider expression and wider acceptance of all that's out there to play with.   Ian Ferguson: (34:52) So the silo-ing of communities goes to reinforce this disconnection between people because they're not seeing, they're not having other people representing in their relationship, these other blueprint types. So that's one of the things I'm most proud about with our community is that we're speaking to everybody's sexuality under one roof, right? We all be all get to play.   Mason: (35:17) And in a way that isn't... Because I think another common thread if you're just watching Western culture, like media and that kind of thing, the next flow is when it stagnates, "Let's go try something. Let's go out and try some kink. I want to.. I brought home a tantra book," or maybe it's like, "Okay, oh, we're going to go to a swingers party." It's a little bit shooting in the dark, which sometimes gets you there, but when you don't know about the thing that might tickle you in the right place, I really like that, "Well let's just... Those things are all well and good then let's go and do them. They're at our disposal," but you start a little bit closer to home and get a little bit of light on the situation so then you can make... You don't need to seek as much.   Mason: (36:05) You can like know a little bit more. I really appreciate that because-   Ian Ferguson: (36:09) Yeah, that's good. I like that too. Not throwing spaghetti at the wall, but yeah-   Mason: (36:14) Because that's stressful. If you have a kid and you have a job and all these things and maybe a hobby or whatever it is, and your own health stuff going on, you don't have that much time. Maybe in early 20s it's just like, "Hey, cool, I'm going to go try this style of tantra. Then I'm going to do a bit of Taoist sexuality. I'm going to try this. I'll be poly.. Polyamorous for a little bit now." It's just like there's so much time and that's not realistic on a broad scale and you just said, as having these kinds of conversations, it doesn't really happen too much.   Mason: (36:49) We have like the talk, the sexual talk, which I don't know if that happens. I think it's more of an American thing, like having the talk around sexuality, but we definitely are the same here in Australia. It's definitely an uncomfortable conversation, which is interesting to be like, what we're really uncomfortable with is exploring the fact that we have nuance because these blueprints are going to show, not just being relating to sexuality, right? It's just relating to different other aspects of ourselves that lead to our happiness and our ability to connect. What's so taboo about that? It's hard to admit that this is a new area for us.   Ian Ferguson: (37:36) For sure. What we've found now that the blueprints have been out there and with a massively expanding community and more people being exposed to the blueprints, is people are finding that this stuff translates into all the aspects of their life, right? How they set their environment, how they relate to their kids, to the people in their workspace and gives them more empowerment, not just in sexuality, but to really own who they are and what they need to thrive any situation. So that's, that's an unintended consequence of this.   Mason: (38:15) Happy accident.   Ian Ferguson: (38:17) People who've talked about how they now get to understand their children better because they got one kid who's highly energetic and they've been forcing hugs on them for 10 years and they realise this and they go, "Oh my god, what have I done? I've been invading my child's boundaries and their sense of autonomy." Now they're able to create a relationship of respect and say, "Would you like a hug?" and when the kids says, "No," they say, "Great, thank you." And they've got the sensual kid who just really needs to be held and needs their room in a delicious, beautiful designs so that they really feel like they have their space.   Ian Ferguson: (39:02) So they do translate all throughout the threads of life.   Mason: (39:07) So good.   Ian Ferguson: (39:07) Where were we?   Mason: (39:08) On set rule?   Ian Ferguson: (39:09) Yeah.   Mason: (39:09) I think we're finishing the-   Ian Ferguson: (39:10) The sexual.   Mason: (39:11) Sexual, yeah.   Ian Ferguson: (39:13) So the shadow sides of the sexual, one, especially if you're a vulva bodied person, can be the sense of shame because the typical is that the man is the sexual, that's the stereotype and that the penis body people are the sexual and they're overt about it and always driven by it and that the vulva bodied folks are more going to be sensuals or maybe energetics. So a sexual-   Mason: (39:41) We need to think about penis bodied and vulva bodied?   Ian Ferguson: (39:46) Yeah.   Mason: (39:46) What do you mean by that?   Ian Ferguson: (39:48) So we're taking genitals away from gender and we're taking genitals away from your sexual identification.   Mason: (39:56) Yeah.   Ian Ferguson: (39:57) So this is for anybody who's trans, bi, non-binary, there's I think... I get this number wrong frequently, but it's somewhere between 63 and 67 gender identifications currently out there. So one of the things also in our community that we're working to do is obviously make it open and accepting to the multitude of consensual relationship styles, your sexual identity and your gender identity. So that when I speak to the penis bodied, let's say there's a bisexual person who's got a penis, they identify as feminine in their energy, they don't really relate to being called a man, but maybe they're going non-binary, but I can speak to the genitals and I can speak to the stereotype that's usually associated with those genitals, right?   Ian Ferguson: (40:55) So a person with a cock is going to be typically identified as male. They may not present as male or they may present as male, but identify as female or identify as a trans or whatever. Wherever you find yourself we are here to honor you in that place of self identification. So I choose to say penis bodied or vulva bodied simply to speak to the genitals and the stereotypes associated to them.   Mason: (41:28) I didn't realise it was a literal penis bodied. I didn't realise that or if it was just like a body shape kind of thing. Anyway, I got it. I love it. So the shadow side of the sexual self...   Ian Ferguson: (41:49) So for the vulva bodied, typically a highly sexual vulva bodied person will come up against being slut shamed. It's just not acceptable, right? So shame can be an aspect of it. Another version, which I didn't realise until about two and a half years ago when we were doing some of our own work around erotic personas, was the layers of sexual shame that I was dealing with. So for the vulva bodied and this thing of being overtly sexual can end up in a place of shame, slut-shaming, being shamed for their overt sexuality. On the opposite, I just realised about two and a half years ago, this was running for me, as a penis bodied person, I identified basically a cisgendered male, my is with my genitals, I had the good boy complex, right?   Ian Ferguson: (42:49) So in relationship to women, if I presented my desire for them, that was me being a jerk. This is how I associated to it. I associated the guys who are the alpha male as dangerous, threatening. So there was a different layer of shame for me being a cock bodied person that then had me shut down those energies in myself and not be able to put them out in the world. So that's a really interesting growth edge for me, in how I relate to my sexuality and being able to, once I got a handle on this and I played with an erotic persona that was overtly sexual, I started to be able to re-own aspects of my sexuality and my sexual started to go up in my blueprint percentages.   Mason: (43:40) Right. So you can see you're tuning in like on a yearly level and just seeing these alterations. It makes sense. You've got this garden of sexuality and you've got to start somewhere in watering some of the pioneer sexual plants for you and then that's going to help everything else grow.   Ian Ferguson: (44:00) For sure. That's the zone we call expansion, and that's where you start to be able to get the turn-ons of your lovers or other blueprint types and actually integrate them. So you're not just doing something in service to somebody, but you actually can like tune in to that aspect of your sexuality.   Mason: (44:20) Cool. Yeah, and that's a nice little caveat that I want to talk about, because that's what quite often what stops me, just I think more as an excuse rather than anything, is that I don't want to be pigeonholed. I don't want to completely go, "This is who I am and this is what I want to try," and then now realise, "Actually no, it's something else." I don't like being pegged down, but which is just a silly little bypass of...   Ian Ferguson: (44:43) I think it's the common thing for people. An example and we'll talk about it next is the kinky blueprint. So I think a lot of people who will take the assessment, it's your mind answering the questions and the circumstance of the quiz. So you're reading these questions, there may be a lack of relatedness to say like the kinky frame or there may be some kind of subconscious shame running around, "Oh well, that's wrong," or, "I shouldn't be turned on by that," or, "That's strange and I'm not going to answer that question with my true response to it," or "I don't even know what that feels like in my body.   Mason: (45:22) Yeah, right.   Ian Ferguson: (45:24) "I've never tried it. So, nope, I don't know." So he first layer is doing the quiz, which is this mental exercise, but where the rubber really hits the road is in the body because these tools came out of somatic practices and it's of the body practices, so when we start to test them in the body, sometimes you get very different results than what comes forward in the quiz.   Ian Ferguson: (45:53) So somebody who says they don't like spanking either never experienced it, they're ashamed to say it or write it on quiz, and then they get on the table or they start playing around with it with a lover and you do that slap to the inner thigh and they're like, "Ooh!" they just light up like, "Aww-grr!" That's exciting and sometimes unnerving for people because they're just like, "Wait, I don't want to be that kinky person," and yet their body says they're turned on by it.   Mason: (46:24) Yeah.   Ian Ferguson: (46:26) Then just one other piece on the shadow side of the sexual, which the sexual may never really be aware of, is that they are missing out. There's a lack of relatedness to all of the other turn-ons that are present. They'll get impatient with the sensual, they have no understanding of the energetic, the kinky is weird and, "Why do we need to do all of this strange thing with scenes and gear and psychological game play?" So they can be very myopically focused and this is a complaint for sexual lovers that we'll often hear from the lover of a sexual, is that they feel like they're a piece of meat. They're just being used for their partner's sexual gratification.   Ian Ferguson: (47:21) The shadow aspect there is just in the ability to really relate with their partner and and see their partner. The other aspect there too is also the sexual wants to be seen for their libido, their eroticism, their turn on and accepted for that, and when they're not, they can sometimes collapse into a lack of confidence or indignance like, "Wait, we need to be having more sex and we're not and you don't love me," and that kind of spin can-   Mason: (47:50) Spinning a good story.   Ian Ferguson: (47:54) Spinning in the story. So kinky. This actually really is my personal fastest access to turn on, is the kinky realm. A lot of people have associated kinky with that has dungeons and leather and chains and the kink realm just sort of busts that myth. It includes that, but the kinky realm is a vast ocean of possibility of expression.   Mason: (48:26) Did you support Jaiya to write a book about kink?   Ian Ferguson: (48:30) Oh yeah. So we went deep, deep, deep into the kink realm.   Mason: (48:33) Is this when 40 days, 40 days of submission?   Ian Ferguson: (48:36) Yeah.   Mason: (48:37) Yeah, I remember hearing that story from Jaiya. Okay. Yeah, maybe you could like... I think it's a good story if you want to share your perspective.   Ian Ferguson: (48:47) For sure. So Jaiya has several books out on the market. The publisher did 40 Shades [inaudible 00:48:57] and kink was starting to come up in the cultural conversation.   Mason: (49:01) Yeah, right.   Ian Ferguson: (49:02) Funny enough, Jaiya, when she first formulated the blueprints, there was energetic, sensual, sexual and shapeshifter. Kinky didn't exist. This is how much she didn't have it on her radar as like, "Oh, that's a whole category for people's arousal." So the publishers came and said, "Hey, we really want to get you in on this wave and you're a perfect person to go in and write the book," but she didn't know anything about kink. So we made a deal with each other, which we were going to do 40 days where Jaiya was dominating me and I was submissive to her. Then we were going to do the reverse where I was 40 days dominating Jaiya and she was submissive to me and Jaiya goes whole hog whenever she does anything.   Ian Ferguson: (49:50) So I got to be the guinea pig in this experiment and realise the depth of my kink. Like it was there in surface expression, little bit of cuffs and some light bondage gear and that sort of thing that I had in my repertoire, but we hired experts, we hired trainers, we went deep into multiple modalities of the kink experiment, learned incredible amounts about our own range of what turns us on and what doesn't. Kink is still a way low and Jaiya's chart, but now she has a much deeper understanding and has some access to kink where she didn't have it really at all before. Then in the kink experimentation... I had a thought that passed. I'm going to let it pass because I'm not going to catch it at the moment. It'll come back.   Mason: (50:49) [inaudible 00:50:49] maybe. That'd be fine.   Ian Ferguson: (50:50) What's that?   Mason: (50:51) I was just talking to the idea. You know the ideas and the thoughts come in, you just like it's all kind of it's own little adventure and maybe in another podcast for right now until we've got a little bit of extra room for it.   Ian Ferguson: (51:02) That's right. It didn't need its space quite yet. It was an amazing opportunity for me to be seen fully for who I was and honored in our relationship.   Mason: (51:14) I can imagine.   Ian Ferguson: (51:15) It was also pretty wild because when I was in the submissive role, for a cisgendered male, penis bodied person, I definitely had like shame challenges coming up. Like, "Wait, why am I turned on by this?" Or we would experiment with shaming language and I was like, "Oh, I'm not going to be turned on by being called a slut or derogatory terminology being used on me during a scene," but we came up with a list of vocabulary words and things to play with, really pushing the edge and we're doing this scene, she's using his words and I'm like, "Whew, my arousal is through the roof. I'm completely turned on by being put in this position where I'm having degrading language used about me," and I kept asking why.   Ian Ferguson: (52:05) Like I'm 30 days into this experiment of being in a submission. I just keep going like, "I don't have any history... These are misconceptions that are common around BDSM where I'm like, "I don't have any history of sexual abuse or trauma," like, "Why am I into all of this stuff?" and finally one of the BDSM practitioners we were studying with was just like, "Why don't you just stop asking why and enjoy yourself?" And it's like, "Ooh."   Mason: (52:39) That's right. It's an interesting one because I relate to the good boy and so in terms of... I mean I could probably relate of having it come towards me a little bit more, but I feel like I've just noticed recently and just growing up, parents divorced, mainly with my mum, really associating with being like, "I'm a good man," and a little bit of PC elements come in there. So in terms of dominating in that language, coming from myself, even now I can see that that's like, "Well that opens a river of sexual expression," opens something up and that's interesting point. Just, "Why don't you just enjoy that? That's an opening and leads..." You don't have to analyze that, but just watching that subconscious or that, "This is bad. You can't say those things. You can't say that to a woman," and everything that comes with it, very insidious for me.   Ian Ferguson: (53:44) For sure. Very much cuts one off from access to pleasure, access to honoring oneself, being able to see and seen first by oneself, let alone being able to present that to the outside world and have it be seen by someone else.   Mason: (54:00) That's so full on because that just opens up so much in the day to day just joy of being with a person, right? It can just create a whole dam and a relationship if there's these blockages, and just what you just said, that's often enough. It doesn't need to be analyzed.   Ian Ferguson: (54:18) Yeah. I've had some kinky partners since then and played very much in the dominant role. Jaiya, she can play psychological kink. There's two different types of kink as we frame it, there's the psychological kink in the physiological or sensation based kinky. I'll distinguish those in a second, but with Jaiya, she can play psychological kink, she can be submissive psychological kink. She's not so much going to be in the sensation based kink in terms of spankings or deep scratching or any kind of hitting or bondage, that kind of stuff.   Ian Ferguson: (55:00) So I've had some other partners who are very, very, very much in the kink and very much into the physiological and psychological and that place of ownership of being able to step into the dominant role. So kink can be an amazing place to practice for anyone who's looking to step into authority, but if you're looking to play a part and put on the role of authority, like, "You're going to get down on your knees and suck my cock," and play this role, the authenticity drops out and the actual connection and the turn on drops out because the receiver, let's say in that circumstance, if I'm going to put on this role, and that's what I did practically like 25-30 days into my dominance role with Jaiya, I was trying to put on this character who was dominant and it was a joke, like Jaiya was literally laughing at me at certain points. Like, "Phht, I'm so unconvinced by whatever you're doing."   Mason: (56:06) Yeah, I can see you putting on your officer's hat, but yeah, talk about that nuance because I'm sure that's like a block. I can definitely relate to that and especially even something that would help me in the future just hearing about it now. Like what was the nuance there?   Ian Ferguson: (56:26) Yeah, so there's a lot of nuances. One, just the discomfort of like I had the good boy thing. So being able to drop into what... So here's, here's the big shift that occurred. One of our instructors in this realm basically boiled it down to me that this is not about putting on that role. This is about an honest, authentic conversation about what turns you on and being really present with your partner because as a dominant there's so many different roles you can play in that. So you can play the role that you're submissive is a piece of furniture or a piece of meat, they're there to be used by you, but it's all within a container of a very, very clearly defined container that's consensual, has boundaries, has edges that you cannot go past and has rules that you must abide by.   Ian Ferguson: (57:29) So once you set your container, once you have full-on consent from every participant in the scene, you know what the game is that you're playing. Then within that game, the dominant is actually responsible for the wellbeing of the submissive. So some people will look at the BDSM world and they'll think, "That's just abuse. The person is hurting that person and they shouldn't be hurting that person," so all these judgements role. Inside of the context of a conscious kink scene, the submissive is the responsibility of the dom. So awareness needs to be heightened. If I'm in a dominant role, what's occurring for my submissive? How are they feeling? Are they getting turned on because we have an agreement of this is a scene that even if the stated thing is like, "This scene is from my pleasure and my pleasure, only as the dominant," they're in an agreement thing, so they're in their arousal, they're in their turn on within the context that we've set.   Ian Ferguson: (58:40) So there's this awareness, there's this presence that needs to take place to be dropped in to, "Oh, there's the subtlety of that thing that then turned into my turn on, on my pleasure because my submissive is turned on, or because the scene is going just as it's planned and I'm seeking for what really turns me on." I'm not playing at some role of like, "We're going to pull out the cop uniform and have you chained to the bed," and whatever the stereotype thing is that we think it's supposed to be-   Mason: (59:16) Which is often as far as people go.   Ian Ferguson: (59:18) Yes, right, but rather looking for like, "Oh, it really turns me on."   Mason: (59:25) What actually turns me on?   Ian Ferguson: (59:27) Yeah, what actually turns me on and where do I feel that connection to my own power? Then this where lifestyle kink, where people can start to go into lifestyle kink or really using the tools of kink domination and submission to create empowerment in their own life.   Ian Ferguson: (59:47) So let's say I'm in my workplace and I have a difficulty with being assertive and being authoritative. Well, start to look where the authentic core of what result you're trying to achieve in that situation, step into authentically claiming it and calling it out with the people who are either your subordinates or even with your boss, but really being in an authentic emotional connection with the outcome you're looking to create, whether it's in a BDSM scene or it's just in the conversation you're having with your boss.   Mason: (01:00:26) Yeah. I feel like you can't separate this from any other part of life, can you? To think that we can compartmentalize sex into this little like piece of the pie of who we are now. Well even just what we bring to sex and our own sexuality, it permeates everything. Shadow side?   Ian Ferguson: (01:00:51) Okay. Well the positive and superpower of the kink is wildly creative, just immense. I could be studying and doing really intense kink work for 10 years and really there'd be another 10 or 20 years to play in this realm. The superpowers are wildly, wildly creative. Often superpowers have to do with the authenticity of the conversations because you are talking about boundaries, consent, really diving deep into knowing your own turn-ons and the other person's turn-on, so you can create very conscious container for sexual play and sexual expression and superpowers for a kink is they also can have non-touch or let's say non-genital focused or non-touch orgasms because they move into subspace because they're being bound and spanked and the endorphins are rushing. So they can achieve orgasm without genital touch or without what typically is associated to what leads to orgasm.   Ian Ferguson: (01:01:55) Shadow sides. Biggest shadow side for the kink is shame, which we already have touched on here, "Why am I this way? Why am I turned on by this? I'm one of the weird people. I'm a kinky super freak. I don't want to be that," so that can be a downside. Then also a potential for... this is kind of a shadow potential for any blueprint type, but for kinky it can be very distinguishable, which is you can have a particular turn on, which becomes a rut, which becomes a sexual grave.   Ian Ferguson: (01:02:35) So let's say an example is like I'm only turned on by having sex in the yellow raincoat. "That's my kink, and that's the only way I'm turned on, and here I'm with my partner and that's really not doing it for my partner but that's it, that's all that turns me on and I can't get past it. So you can get into this rut that then becomes the grave of turn-on where there's no turn-on to be found elsewhere where you're going to lack sexual connection with your lover.   Ian Ferguson: (01:03:12) I want to state really clearly, if that works for you, whatever that turn on is and you're happy with it and your partner's happy with it, there's nothing wrong with it. It's all good, but often the sexual dissatisfaction, the sexual disconnection takes place to oneself or to others and you're in the grave.   Mason: (01:03:38) In the grave. And then shapeshifters, just shapeshifting in dominance throughout the different blueprints?   Ian Ferguson: (01:03:45) Yeah. Shapeshifter is everything. So the shapeshifter is like the high performance sports car of sexuality. They have the full range of expression. They're turned on by all of it. Superpowers for a shapeshifter are that they're turned on by all of it. They can be the ultimate lover for any lover because they have the full range, they're turned on by it, they know how to feed their lover in whatever blueprint they are.   Ian Ferguson: (01:04:14) On the flip side of it, the shapeshifter also can have a sense of shame because they're usually really big sexually. They're really expressed and they've been shut down as "You're too much, you're too loud, you're too big, you want too much. Why is this always so complicated?" So their sexuality can be shut down on that front.   Ian Ferguson: (01:04:35) Another shadow for them is that they can often live a life of sexual starvation because they'll fall into a relationship with somebody who's got a primary blueprint and they'll move into the people pleaser mode, turning on their lover in their blueprint, never being fed in their full sexuality, and they'll shut down and then that chain piece of, "I'm too much, I want too much, I'm too complicated," and they won't claim their needs or their desires because it'll rock the boat.   Mason: (01:05:08) Yeah, being a pleaser, that rears its head after a while, doesn't it or something like, "Well, I'm giving you everything you want," and just pretty much just become you can be, "[inaudible 01:05:17] under the skin.   Ian Ferguson: (01:05:17) Yeah.   Mason: (01:05:20) So good and thanks for going into that comprehensively. It's one of those things, especially like for a path of arousal because arousal's just like... You're aroused sexually, you can be aroused by life, you can be aroused by your job, you can be aroused my, everything. It's just it has so much to do with health and longevity. It's an interesting thing. Do you guys get into the Taoist herbs? I think I've heard Jaiya talk about his He Shou Wu and Eucommia.   Ian Ferguson: (01:05:46) Oh, for sure.   Mason: (01:05:47) You're on board. Yeah. it's an interesting thing. You can say these Jing Herbs, you got to watch out, you get pretty potent when you get onto the Jing Herbs, but when someone's like, "I'd like to have a little bit more libido." It's like, "Yeah, cool. That's all well and good, and yes, Jing Herb's and Schizandra are great, but what does your libido look like?" That's an interesting thing. That's why I wanted to do this podcast and have these chats as well, is just because we got to make sure we have other things in our awareness of yeah, like if you're going to have that potency being built with your lifestyle and with the herds, make sure that you actually can take it in different directions, it doesn't bottleneck in terms of you just mean you want to just be able to feel like you can just fuck like you did it in the first six months of the relationship.Maybe it's moved on now.   Mason: (01:06:39) It's so nice to be able to like... You must have it all day. I'm just feeling that empathy for those moments where it clicks and the awareness happens within it for someone with their own sexuality in their relationship and the pressure eases because they can like, "Oh, I can start relating to myself as who I really am," rather than the projection of just the cultural, like what I started identifying with, it's just really nice. So I'm glad everyone is going to get to listen and tune into your work. We've gone really down the rabbit hole with the blueprints, which is awesome because it impacts everything, but I really want to hear what's going on with the new work and your new course that's coming out.   Ian Ferguson: (01:07:23) Okay, perfect. Yeah. So you're going to post the quiz in your show notes.   Mason: (01:07:27) Yeah.   Ian Ferguson: (01:07:27) So that's sort of like the first step.   Mason: (01:07:29) So everyone, go and take that quiz.   Ian Ferguson: (01:07:33) For sure. So that's the first introduction. Just a recommendation, when you take the quiz, there's going to be a webpage that pops up. Scroll down the webpage because you'll see your primary blueprint type at the top of the page after you finish the quiz, but when you scroll down the page, you'll see your percentages so you'll see your primary and you'll see all the other blueprints and see where you stack in there. So fun to take with your lover so that you can compare notes like, "Oh Whoa, what's going on there?" This is either why we're rocking it or this is why we've got some disconnection.   Mason: (01:08:09) I did have that question actually. Obviously you're going to see compatibility emerging and non compatibility patterns, I guess, to an extent. Is it one of those things at times when you see like a, I don't know if there's two that are starkly in contrast to each other, where you go... Is it always possible to make it work as... Oh the will. That's what you were talking about, the willingness.   Ian Ferguson: (01:08:29) Willingness.   Mason: (01:08:29) Willingness before, and really I liked that you brought that up because in Taoism we talk about the Three Treasures, Jing, Qi, and Shen, but no one really talks about that fourth treasure Zhi which is will and it's not willpower, it's as you tonify and have your essence of your Jing, your geneti

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week’s episode is little bit different.  Apart from the state of the world, Rekka has some personal news that she’d like to update everyone on. This, of course, leads to our topic for the week which is personal setbacks. When there is major event or change in your life, how do you cop and how do you keep writing? When is it time to take a step back and consider stopping?  No one can answer those questions for you, but on this episode we talk about our own personal experience and offer some advice. We are all living in uncertain and while it is often frightening and overwhelming, we can all be there for each other with help and support as we adjust to our new normals. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and your favorite way you are passing the time while social distancing and sheltering in place – stay safe everyone! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Kaelyn (00:00): Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of we make books a show about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine, I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. New Speaker (00:08): And I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn (00:12): And uh, this is going to be a very short intro because of the beginning of the show is kind of the intro. Um, the theme for today is, I'm sure you can tell from the title of the episode is we're talking about personal setbacks and um, Rekka has been experiencing some of those. So rather than spend a lot of time talking about the episode right now, we're just going to jump right into it and uh, give Rekka a chance to kind of give everyone an update on some things that have been going on in her life. New Speaker (00:37): So slight pause for music. Speaker 2 (00:46): [inaudible] Kaelyn (00:52): Okay. And we're back. Not that we ever went too far to begin with - New Speaker (00:58): Except this time you didn't even bother coming over to my house to record. Kaelyn (01:02): It's true. You may notice that, uh, this episode sounds a little different in two ways. One is that we are recording over the interwebs. New Speaker (01:11): Due to an overabundance of caution. Kaelyn (01:14): An over abundance of caution. There's two reasons for this. One obviously is coronavirus Hey, yeah, everyone is self isolating. Um, I as I'm sure those who have listened before know I live in New York city. Um, things here are mostly fine, however they are kind of recommending that we all may have been exposed and not be aware of it. So to kind of keep your interaction with other people to a minimum. New Speaker (01:41): Yeah. Plus trains are kind of filthy to begin with and Kaelyn getting on a train concerned me for Kaelyn's sake, but also what might come along with her. Kaelyn (01:50): And that was a particular concern for Rekka. Rekka (01:54): I am now immuno-compromised. Kaelyn (01:56): Rekka is officially immuno-compromised. at this point. Um, so for those of you who, you know, follow Rekka on Twitter or maybe even follow her on Facebook if you're involved in her writing groups, um, Rekka has been posting us some information with some health updates, but I'm not, not too much. New Speaker (02:14): I haven't give the whole story in public yet. Kaelyn (02:16): Exactly. So, um, you may notice Rekka also sounds a little bit different. New Speaker (02:20): Slightly a little bit of cotton ball in the mouth kinda - Kaelyn (02:23): I think you sound great honestly. But, um, so without too much more beating around the bush, let's kind of get into Rekka what's been going on with you? So, uh, this all started back in may. New Speaker (02:36): No, no. May was the nebula's had already been going on since March of 2019. So this is a year, this is the one year anniversary of me going, Hmm, something's wrong. Um, I, I was working on salvage at the time, actually, no, I was working on cast off and I decided that um, Sophie, a character in the books had a tattoo her chest and it was trying to decide what that tattoo might be. And a friend of mine suggested, I look at the music artist LP because she has a very large ship tattooed on her chest and, and so of course then I check out the music, love the music, sing along with the music in my home studio, which is very sound isolated. And I knew no one could hear me at the top of my lungs for a week and a half. And then I lost my voice. This all seems very normal, no reason for concern other than like maybe don't do that next time. Um, but in trying to rest and relax in my voice, I started to realize this is not happening at the right pace. Rekka (03:41): This is taking a really long time. Yes. I'm also recording podcasts. Yes, I'm going to conferences and um, and we both came back from the nebulous pretty sick. Right. So, I mean at that point I didn't think that anything was really wrong, but by the time I was ready to go to, uh, my day job's conference in two weeks after that, I was like, you know, I'm just gonna make an appointment for when I get home just to get this looked at in case. And, um, so I ha I had that appointment after the next conference, which of course I also came back from very hoarse. So that primary care physician said, well, have you ever tried not talking a listener? I fired that primary care physician, but she did recommend that I or she did refer me to an ENT. So I went to see my ENT. Rekka (04:30): ENT says, um, so describe your symptoms to me. I'm like, well my throat is really sore and I've got this bump under my jaw and she barely touches the bump. She scopes my throat. She says, well you might have done some vocal cord damage, but it seems to be healing. Here's a list of things to avoid for acid reflux. You're done. Kaelyn (04:49): Which by the way, if some of you may already know, Rekka is keto. So then on top of this she was limited to basically soup. New Speaker (04:57): That was not the case - Kaelyn (05:01): That's what it seemed like. New Speaker (05:01): However at that point. I did cut out caffeine because caffeine was on the list. So I'm like, all right, well that makes sense for acid reflux. If I am trying to heal my throat, it would probably do me, you know, some good to avoid these things. So I avoided them for a very long time and it did seem to improve. Um, so I thought that was the end of it. Cause the ENT certainly thought that was the end of it. Like they didn't say, you know, call us in a month and let us know how you're doing. And they didn't follow up that, you know, that was it. They scoped my throat. They said don't eat these things. Nothing wrong with you other than that you're young and healthy. So that's already July. Cause it took me that long to realize like, Hmm, it's not just my overuse of my throat. That is a problem. You know, but it was resting. They, the acid reflux stuff seem to be helping. It would still wear out pretty fast. But I'm not even sure that that's actually related. I just think that's the small health problem that got me thinking closer about the overall health problem as tends to happen. Kaelyn (05:57): It turns out, however, that this was not acid reflux. There was actually a pretty significant health. New Speaker (06:02): I mean there might've been acid reflux, but it was unrelated to the, the underlying health problem. So I, um, I vacationed in October and while I was away, I scratched what was at that point, a two week old tattoo. And over the next week that we were still on vacation, that tattoo got kinda red and inflamed and hot to the touch and, and from to the touch. So that tends to indicate an infection. So when we got home, I went to my primary care physician again, this was the new one. And she said, while you're here, any other complaints? And I'm like, well my throat's been feeling better but this bump under my jaw is still there. And so she immediately zeroed in on him, bless her. And um, she was like, okay, well I will say if she was up front, she's like, there is such a thing as a salivary gland tumor, but it's very rare. So let's start with salivary stones. Cause apparently that's also a thing I'd never heard of that. Kaelyn (07:05): Like I'm learning all of these things that can happen in your neck region now. New Speaker (07:09): No kidding. But like also the technician at that location had salivary stones. So it's not that uncommon. It's really bizarre. Kaelyn (07:17): So watch out for salivary stones, apparently just drink lots of liquid. New Speaker (07:22): I think that that helped the instruction she gave me for the salivary stones, um, was to suck on sour candies, which as we've mentioned, I'm keto. So I was just sucking on lemon wedges and then, um, to use hot compresses. So after like I'd say two weeks or so of really being diligent about sucking on lemon wedges at least twice a day and doing the hot compresses, my tongue went numb, which is not what was supposed to happen. And, um, so I went back to her and she said, I am sending you back to the ENT because, um, now we are not, we are not worried about salivary stone so much anymore, but they will be able to order your imaging and, uh, find out what it really is. Rekka (08:10): So this is middle of November and this is the point at which we start to have holidays for irregularly. So I wonder how much faster this would have gone if we weren't constantly timing around holidays. So the CT scan came back that it was not a salivary stone. Uh, the two possibilities now are infection and some kind of neoplasm, which is the, uh, term that they like to use instead of tumor. And, uh, so the next thing was thankfully the ENT just called me and said, now we're putting in orders for an ultrasound with fine needle aspiration. So they sent me in for an ultrasound with a needle biopsy and that came back and conclusive the needle biopsy was, the needle was so fine. They basically didn't get big enough samples to see anything. So we killed two more weeks because by the time I got in for that, a week from the needle biopsy was Christmas. Rekka (09:03): So he got the results and he said, ah, they're inconclusive. It's not an infection though. It's some kind of neoplasm that may or may not be a, you know, a carcinoma. So then they, um, faxed over all my information to an ENT and the ENT called me back just after new years. So now we are past all the holidays and things start happening. And so I saw the ENT and he was the first person I, I will say he was amazing, the first person to actually like grab on to my throat and really feel around everyone else was touching it, like - Kaelyn (09:37): Gently poking. New Speaker (09:38): Like they were afraid I was going to break. I'm like, how can you feel anything? Yeah. And he really did. My husband was there and he was super impressed with how he just like went in there and he was feeling my lymph nodes as well. So, um, we felt really good after seeing him and he said exactly what I wanted to hear at that point. I mean, I was sick of this and he said, uh, we won't know what it is until we get a bigger biopsy sample and if we're getting a bigger biopsy sample, we're taking the whole thing out. He's basically, he said then the next step for diagnosis is also the treatment. Then it was waiting to have their scheduling department call me. And so finally the waiting was over at the end of January. Um, the last time we recorded was like two days after I saw him for the first time. So we didn't know when the surgery was going to be at that point, but he did make it sound like it was going to be pretty fast and it was um, basically they called me on a Friday and it was, and they, um, had me in on Tuesday for the surgery. Rekka (10:38): And um, so plan, plan a was just to take out the um, the tumor while I was still under, they did identify cancer cells. So that meant, you know, the full surgical possibility it was going to be enacted, which was to remove 40 of 50 lymph nodes, um, from my neck. So they did that. So the little scar that they were promising me, which actually was sounding really disappointing at the time, is now a very, um, very large scar that I have much pride over. Kaelyn (11:10): It's pretty badass. New Speaker (11:11): It's very bad ass. I didn't want a eh, kind of scar. But this one, this one says screams cancer survivor. Kaelyn (11:19): I think it screams Ninja attack survivor personally. New Speaker (11:23): Yeah. It just kind of as some, another author who saw it put it, it looks like someone slipped my throat and I got up and killed them. Kaelyn (11:31): It's exactly what it looks like. Rekka (11:35): Um, yeah, so it's pretty bad ass. Uh, I thought at the beginning of this I thought that um, based on where it was bothering me, I thought the scar would run vertically over the side of my jaw and I was getting kind of excited about this space, pirate kind of a scar and um, and then when I realized that they were going to run, it was going to be horizontal and they were going to run it parallel to my job. It was like, no, I don't want it now. We don't want the surgery. I wanted that scar. It turns out if they put the scar where I wanted it, I probably would have lost all muscle control and that side of my face. So maybe for the best, maybe we let the doctors and surgeons decide where the scar goes. Kaelyn (12:06): Fine. What like they know what they're doing or something? All of this is to come back to say you came out of the first surgery and were given the diagnosis? Rekka (12:15): Yeah, yeah. Well, worse. Um, my husband was given the diagnosis and he had to give me the diagnosis, which just about broke his heart. So the diagnosis that my husband had to deliver to me was that yes, I had cancer. Um, I kind of knew it because when I was waking up, they did mention you had a lot of, or you did a big job. I don't remember the exact words, but basically I knew that it wasn't the small incision. I knew that they'd gone for everything and knowing that they'd gone for everything meant I knew what they found. I don't know how I may use this much logic coming out from under general anesthesia, but I understood within moments of me becoming conscious again that, um, my neck had been got wide open and that meant that they found cancer cells. So my husband having to tell me this, he didn't actually, like, I wasn't hearing it from him cause I had already figured it out, but he was, he was very upset and he said, um, you know, it's bad, but, um, the surgeon thinks we're, you know, we're not going to have any trouble beating this. Rekka (13:20): You know, they've got a plan. The diagnosis that came up with the final biopsy of the surgery was, was that it was a stage one, which meant early in the cancer's life, however high grade, which meant it was very aggressive, uh, adenoid which means it was in salivary or mucus glands, cystic meaning a tumor, carcinoma meaning cancer. So, um, stage one, high grade adenoid cystic carcinoma of my left submandibular salivary gland. So this is what I'm dealing with, the bump in my throat. Oh, the bump on the outside of my neck, which I only found because my throat got sore. Um, turns out was not a swollen lymph node that was irritated by my other stresses and illnesses, but it was a tumor that had probably been there for awhile. Um, but it took until, you know, the biopsy was complete before I had my final diagnosis, which I'd been trying to get all last year. Rekka (14:16): So it was, um, I will say it, it hasn't been a stressful journey to even just get to this point and there was a lot of relief and just having a diagnosis and a plan. Kaelyn (14:26): That's a very, that's a very common thing with um, people who have been dealing with, uh, chronic and ongoing symptoms that no one can quite tell them what's wrong. New Speaker (14:37): No one believes anything is really going to be that problematic cause I'm young and healthy. Well guess what? Cancer is not really healthy, so stop using that. Kaelyn (14:45): Well, think about what your life and your mental state must be like to be relieved to hear that you have cancer. New Speaker (14:51): Like how frustrating is this process that you are like, good, good. Now we can do something about it - Kaelyn (14:55): Oh thank God, it's cancer. New Speaker (14:56): Okay. Well, okay, I will say I never had that phrase pop into my mind. Kaelyn (15:01): Um, but yeah. Well, so you know, speaking of, uh, next steps and plans and dealing with things. Um, we are recording a bunch of these right now because Rekka has a step two of, of this treatment coming up. Rekka (15:17): The thing they warned me about when I came out from the first surgery was that we might need to do surgery again. Um, and "might" was really more of a, yeah, we're going to do that. Kaelyn (15:27): We're going to be doing this. Yeah. Rekka (15:29): Basically the nerve that they took, um, runs up and merges with another nerve at a certain point and they found a cancer cell above the point where they branch out. So they are going down the other branch. Now that branch goes through my jaw, they probably would have taken it if it didn't, but because I had only signed off on a couple of things, uh, pre-surgery, they could not, uh, keep going and get it all done in one day. So, um, they waited for the final biopsy, they waited for a pet scan. And, um, at that point they said, we really recommend that you have this, um, left sagittal, uh, mandibular split osteotomy. I think those are the words, what it means, like actually verify what it means is that, um, they're going to do a controlled fracture of my jaw so that, um, they can get in and get the nerve out that's inside left mandible sagittal split osteotomy. Rekka (16:34): I think that's what I said that is, so basically if they have to take more than four centimeters of the nerve that's in there and this is a pretty significant portion of my jaw, um, I would say at least 10 centimeters if not, you know, 12. Um, if they take less than four centimeters, that means that they can graft it and I might retain feeling in my face on that side. Cause where it comes out of the jaw is just below the corner of my mouth on the left side. And that's all the feeling on the left side of my mouth. And you know, the obviously the feeling in my jaw on that side. So there's a chance that, um, I guess what they'll do is section the, uh, the nerve and see if they see any cancer cells. And if they don't, then they'll stop and graft it. Kaelyn (17:21): So, uh, listeners, by the time you hear this episode - New Speaker (17:24): It will already be done. Kaelyn (17:24): Rekka will have already undergone the surgery. She will be on the road to recovery that said Rekka is going to have her jaw wired shut which you may suspect is counterproductive to recording podcasts. Listenter you would be correct. New Speaker (17:40): I mean, they have told me that I could talk through my teeth, but it's really not great radio. Kaelyn (17:43): You're going to be an amazing ventriloquist by the time all this was done. So yeah. Um, we're recording a bunch of episodes now. Um, and hopefully, you know, in a month, a couple of months Rekka will, uh, be well on the mend by then and um, Rekka (18:03): Hopefully the quarantines will be lifted, the plague will be over. Kaelyn (18:06): That's a whole other, that's a whole other issue. New Speaker (18:08): So also because of this upcoming surgery we told Kaelyn, even though we invited you over for corn, beef and cabbage. Um, nevermind, sorry, we love you, but please stay there. Kaelyn (18:18): Yup. Which I mean, was the smart responsible adult thing to do. New Speaker (18:22): Certainly. Kaelyn (18:23): Um, so yes, Rekka is now officially amongst the, uh, the population of immuno-compromised people that need to be taking this very seriously. Um, yeah. Rekka (18:34): Not to mention that after the surgery, six weeks later I'm going to start radiation. Kaelyn (18:37): Yeah. So, um, we are, uh, we are isolating. We are trying to minimize the spread and risk of contagion here. New Speaker (18:47): Yeah. Kaelyn (18:47): But, um, so Rekka (18:49): While also keeping the wonderful content that you expect from this podcast going. Kaelyn (18:53): Yes. Rekka (18:54): So along those lines, speaking of content, uh, as we mentioned at the, in the brief intro, uh, we're talking about personal setbacks today and, and Kaelyn suggested this and she was talking professional. Kaelyn (19:08): I was talking professional setbacks and we are going to talk about those eventually. Um, but we realized that Rekka really hadn't had a chance to explain to, you know, her loyal and loving fans. Rekka (19:22): Not that I owe you an explanation of my health situation and we recognize that you might be protesting is like she doesn't know what's that and that's fine. And I love you for thinking that and um, but the uh, you know, this is going to impact the show. It's going to impact my writing. It's going to impact a lot of stuff. Yeah. So, um, I wanted to talk about it and um, Kaelynknew that you would be concerned for me and wish me well and wanted to give me a chance to tell you what was going on. Kaelyn (19:49): So, um, yeah, that's it. Uh, where, uh, going to have limited access to Rekka's, voice in coming weeks and months. Yeah. So, Rekka (19:56): so we have some contingency plans. We're going to do what we can to not make the podcast feel like it's getting all that different. But um, you know, it may have to at certain points Kaelyn (20:07): And we'll keep you posted and updated and you know, like I said, Rekka is going to learn to throw her voice really well. So, you know, look forward to some upcoming new characters. Rekka (20:17): I might even fill in Kaelyn's role sometimes if we can't get together to record that she's going to do both of us. Kaelyn (20:25): So, um, yeah. So Rekka, you're, we're, we're going to shift a little bit to an interview format here, um, where we're going to talk about personal setbacks and how that impacts not just your life but especially your writing. So Rekka, overall, how you feeling right now about all of them? Rekka (20:42): Well, fuck, I mean, come on. I, I am very positive about my health. I am 200% fucking stubborn to let anything like this stop me. Kaelyn (20:53): When we had first heard about this and I had gone up to, uh, to visit Rekka, uh, her husband, Matt and I were sitting up talking and I looked over at him and said, you know, the universe is going to have to drag Rekka kicking and screaming from it. Right? He said, I know. And it's like, okay, just so we're on the same page here, I know you're doing, you know, you are handling this. I mean I can't, I don't want to say handling it better because there is no better or worse when handling Rekka (21:22): I have my moments like that. Kaelyn (21:26): You are addressing this in what to me is an incredibly admirable way. But as you said, I'm sure you've had your moments. Rekka (21:35): Yeah. And honestly, you know, thinking about this in terms of the writing, the, the way that I am dealing with this is allowing myself not to be as productive as I expect to be. Um, well that was, Kaelyn (21:49): Yeah, that was my next question is so you know, obviously your life and your health is the first most important thing Rekka (21:55): And it has to be and if you want to get through it, you have to prioritize things. So yeah. Kaelyn (22:02): Secondarily though, um, this is obviously going to be impacting your writing and the way the rate at which you produce. Um, now I think for a lot of people listening to this and a lot of writers out there would say, well to me I find that kind of a relaxing thing if I've just got to sit around anyway, I plan to do a lot of writing and for some people, depending on what the setback might be, maybe you lost your job. Maybe there's um, you know, other health issues in your family that directly don't directly impact you. If we're getting is an outlet that you can use to calm yourself and to, you know, get some me time in there, then that's fantastic. However, and I think Rekka can speak more to this. Manage your expectations. Rekka (22:46): Well, not only that, um, yeah, definitely what you're saying is manage your expectations because losing your job may give you lots of free time, but it also gives you extra anxiety and suddenly, you know, you feel like all your free time needs to be going to finding the next job or you're spending your free time, brain processing power, worrying about bills and what's going to happen with your insurance or your loved ones if they depended on you. I mean there are so many reasons why having more free time is not, you know, suddenly and unexpectedly is not a good thing. Um, and you know, worrying about your family. Let me tell you, I can watch my family around me. They are having a harder time with this than I am. They are con they're preoccupied at all times with what's going on with my health. Yeah. And um, so even if it's not you, even if it's something going on where you might, um, think I should be able to write more, cause I've got lots of time to do it in you brain, just need you to sit and process it. Kaelyn (23:48): This is, you know, and we've talked about this in other episodes, um, the time that you need to just sit and think about things in your writing now take that and apply it to, you know, for instance - New Speaker (24:00): Dealing with a major crisis. New Speaker (24:02): In Rekka's case dealing with cancer. Um, I think that, you know, it is good for a lot of people to try to maintain a sense of a normal schedule to not, you know, have your life completely upended, but you have to acknowledge that your life is going to be completely offended and be okay with that and be okay with that. Rekka (24:26): Like acceptance is so much of this, um, understanding like I used to get up every morning at 5:00 AM and write for two hours before I started my work day and then I knew whatever else, you know, went on that day. I'd already gotten my writing done. Um, [inaudible] I started when things got kind of like, Ooh, something's wrong here. I stopped waking up that early, I started letting myself sleep in cause I'm like, all right, my immune system needs some help. I stopped drinking. I enjoy a glass of gin every now and then. Um, I haven't had any alcohol since my tongue went on. Basically. I said, my immune system needs everything I can give it, you know, and he's all hands on deck. Um, I got serious about, you know, my physical fitness, which of course now I can't because I have a scar that's still healing. So, um, I got as fit as I could before my first surgery. Um, because your muscles are really key to your immune system and um, you know, I tried to do everything I could to, um, to prioritize my health even before I knew what this was and knew the long haul I was in for. Kaelyn (25:34): Again, this is the prioritization is really important. Um, your health is really important. Your mental health is very important. Um, personal setbacks can come in all ways, shapes and forms. I will, um, I will say that, uh, last fall I had a really rough last fall. Um, I had about a month where nothing really major happened, like the, you know, I didn't, for instance, end up diagnosed with cancer. Um, but I had a couple of deaths in the family really close together. Um, I changed jobs, which, you know, I didn't lose my job and that was still just very stressful dealing with all of that. And you know, then I had, um, also some health issues. I think I had mentioned on the podcast one time when I sounded particularly scratchy, I got strep throat in the middle of all of this and all of these things individually, you know, would be something to just deal with that a jury summons. Kaelyn (26:38): So real quick, this is, this is a quick, lighthearted, funny story. October 17th was one of the, what is now most comically bad days of my life. Um, my, uh, my uncle had died. I came home from the funeral and I had been coughing a lot. I hadn't been feeling great. So my cousin calls me, I'm on the other side of the family, which is why she was not at the funeral, just to be clear. And, uh, I had spent the previous weekend with her and she says, um, Hey, I just want to give you a heads up. I have strep throat, she's a teacher so she's around children all the time and they're constantly infecting her with stuff. And I think to myself, God damn it, and I had just resigned my job a week before this. I had two weeks left before I started my new one. I was like, I don't have time for this. Kaelyn (27:26): So I went straight to the clinic. They did a rapid strep test. So they're like, Oh yeah that's strep throat. But good news, you caught it pretty early. So you know, it's, so I go home and sitting in my mail is eight jury summons but not just a regular jury summons, eight grand jury summons. Um, the difference here for those wondering is a grand jury is the group of people that sits together and listens to prosecutors, give evidence and decides if they have enough to hand out an indictment. It is a minimum of 20 day service and this is not a situation where you can show up in a princess leia outfit and insists that you shouldn't be on a jury because you're a hologram and they'll send you home. They don't care if your name gets pulled out of the thing you're serving on a grand jury, which I want everyone just to keep that in mind if you're ever thinking of committing a crime. Kaelyn (28:15): So the day I was supposed to report for this was the first day of my new job, so thankfully I was able to defer it. Um, but to really round out the story, I'm sitting at home, I have like a glass of wine. My one of my friends came over and you know, I was just watching the football game and all of a sudden I hear all these lights and sirens outside. The short version of this story is I go downstairs and there are six firefighters standing outside with axes debating whether or not it's time to break down the door. I want you to think about what I looked like coughing, crying, bleary-eyed in sweatpants. Ma'am, ma'am, have you been inhailing smoke ma'am? Kaelyn (29:08): So apparently what happened was there was a, um, when you rent buildings in New York, you have to have a thing that if certain alarms go off, it automatically calls the fire department. And this one shorted out and called the fire department. So anyway, the whole point of this is, is that, um, by the end of October I, I came up for it to record a track. I go to the Halloween party and I was a wreck. Like just the stress of everything going on. Even though nothing that bad and permanently life-changing had been happening. This is all a very long way of saying that you need to figure out what it is that's causing you stress and take that into account when you have these kinds of setbacks. And don't try to just write it off and tell yourself it's not a big deal. People have it worse than me. I should just put my head down and do this. Cause that's what I did. And let me tell you, Rekka (30:02): It extended your pain for sure. Kaelyn (30:04): It was, it was not a productive way of handling all of this. Yeah. Rekka (30:08): And my not knowing what my issue was was really affecting my mental health. I should also mention that I'm in the hospital after my surgery. I got a grand jury summons. I mean they didn't send it to the hospital, but the week of my surgery, um, I had surgery on Tuesday and on Friday arrived a grand jury summoned, um, this is apparently they are waiting like something in your mental health is pinging the government to send you - Kaelyn (30:38): to be like, yes, this is somebody who should decide whether or not people go to, have to go to trial. Rekka (30:43): And I don't know if I told Kaelyn this yet. I think I did. Um, since then my husband has gotten jury summons, but just regular, just a regular look. The, the local court. But yeah, I mean, are you kidding me? What is going on? The actual outbreak is jury summons. Kaelyn (31:02): So yeah. Well speaking of outbreaks then and things that are stressful, um, I, so I deferred, I last week got my grand jury servings again. I'm, I'm supposed to show up on March 23rd and um, I don't know what's going to happen with all of this. Rekka (31:17): Right. And that was another thing that was in the hospital, right. As the, you know, we were getting the first understanding of how big this was in China. Um, you know, when they were no longer able to conceal the numbers, um, that was on the news while I was in the hospital. Kaelyn (31:35): So, um, along those lines, and this is going to be one of our rare timely episodes because I'm, Rekka (31:41): Yeah, this will date us. I mean, here's your time capsule if you're coming from the future. Kaelyn (31:45): Yeah. If you're listening in the future, but for those who, you know, keep up to date with us, this is a rare, timely episode of it. So a personal setback that a lot of people are going to be experiencing now is dealing with this coronavirus situation. Even if you don't have it, um, your life and your movements are gonna be restricted. Um, Rekka (32:02): You might be working from home, which in theory you have more time cause you don't have to commute. You don't have to bother, you know, putting on clothes or putting on makeup if you don't want to, which you know, it's up to you if you do it. Honestly, you know, I think we should do an episode on working from home optional, but um, you know, now you've got the stress of like, how is my family, um, am I at higher risk? What exposures have I been exposed to? You know, like now you have all this time but you are stressed in the social media stream. Might be a good time to turn that off because you know, you've got all this constant barrage of updates and numbers and um, media coverage for better or worse. Kaelyn (32:40): Yeah. And beyond that, um, this is going to start impacting writers in very real ways that everything's getting canceled. Rekka (32:48): Yup. Um, conferences. Kaelyn (32:50): Conferences, writing groups of, you know, just general events, just general meetups. Um, you know, this is something that, you know, needs to be taken seriously, obviously. And thankfully people are, cause this is, you know, incredibly contagious and large gatherings of people are not great for that. However, this is going to impact your writing and this will be a personal setback for a lot of people. Rekka (33:16): Yeah, yeah. Personal on a national and global scale, but it's still, you know, it affects, you personally don't feel guilty for having negative feelings about this. Like, you know, Katelyn was saying, don't feel like other people have it worse than me. I mean, don't go out to tell other people who do have it worse than you that they don't, but you know, be accepting of what you're going through. Kaelyn (33:38): Be kind to yourself about this. It's okay to feel down about things and be disappointed. Rekka (33:43): It's like grief. If you try to put it off and put it off and put it off, you're still gonna get hit with it. Um, so the stress and anxiety over the situation, it's like acknowledge it and work with it. Not, don't try to wall it off. Kaelyn (33:56): Uh, because I'm going to curtail that into kind of our last talking point on this, which is this kind of thing will affect your writing. Um, there are a lot of very famous stories out there about authors writing things when they were in a bad place. Rekka (34:11): Yeah. Kaelyn (34:12): And how it comes through in your writing. Rekka (34:15): So even if you manage to maintain your productivity, it's going to probably change the tone and Tomber of your, of your work. Kaelyn (34:22): Yeah, exactly. So if you, you know, and when you're dealing with, you know, in in wreck case for instance, you know, really significant illness, um, you know, keep that in mind as something that is affecting you. Be aware of this because if, I mean, who knows, maybe this, this will, you know, inspire your writing. Maybe this will work for the better. Um, one of the examples I always use is, um, J K Rowling famously saying she almost killed off Ron in one of the books, out of sheer frustration and depression. Um, you know, thankfully if she did it, but, um, these kinds of things can come through and impact your stories and your characters and your writing. Um, if you want them to and you just want to run with it, that's fine. But you know, it never hurts to also just be, be mindful of what your mental health is doing. Rekka (35:17): Yeah. Kaelyn (35:18): So, um, that's, you know, as we wanted to kind of use this episode as an opportunity to update but then also discuss something that everyone is probably going to deal with something like this at some point in their life. Rekka (35:38): Yeah. And we didn't get to it yet, but, um, what I will say is that the person and the, and the energy and the health and the productivity that I had before this all started, I will never have that again. This personal setback is not a year and a half of dealing with cancer. This is after I come out of the cancer and it's gone. I still am missing 40 lymph nodes. I was still have gone through radiation and I will never be the same person again. New Speaker (36:05): Your immune system will forever be compromised. New Speaker (36:07): My jaw might be weaker, you know, I might have to watch out like no more bar fights for me, you know. Kaelyn (36:12): Um, which is a shame because that was one of my favorite activities when coming to visit you. Rekka (36:17): But the, um, you know, the life that I have when this is done is not going to look like the life I had when I started, which was my expectation when I wanted to get through this and get back to my life is what I used to say. Um, it was a big revelation for me to realize that my life is going to not be the life that I thought it was going to have. Um, that doesn't have to be negative. If I can accept that whatever my new normal is, is now my new normal and work with it. And I think that's true for everyone now. Like your setback may not be permanent, but if it is, you're going to be okay. . Kaelyn (36:56): Yeah, it's, it's a very difficult thing for a lot of people who experience, um, be it, you know, lost trauma or illness to accept that a lot of times you are going to have a new normal. Um, very rarely can you just get through something and jump back into your life the way you did. Because if nothing else, you have mentally come out of this change. Yeah. You are never going to be the same way you were before. And pretending and trying to be that way is probably not healthy. Rekka (37:30): Right. That's, that's how we bury our traumas. That's how we, you know, overextend ourselves. If it's a physical, um, capability that is now lower, um, yeah, being okay accepting that the Rekka of, you know, July, 2020 is someone I haven't met yet. Um, but that I, I will be living with is, um, it's, it's going to be the, the real triumph here. You know, beating cancer isn't up to me. I have a team of people who are going to do that. My job is to be good to myself, to allow myself the space I need to heal and to um, accept the person that I am being transformed into because that's all I can do. Kaelyn (38:16): Yeah. So, um, well that's to add real quick. Rekka your prognosis is very good. Rekka (38:21): Yeah. Yup, yup. They're not too worried about it, but it does mean like for the rest of my life, every three months I'll be getting MRIs and you know, scans of one kind or another because they've got to keep an eye on this. It can pop up again, can pop up in a month, that can pop up in 20 years. So this is, this is my new normal is every three months I've got to take some time out to go get a scan, which means now I am very concerned about what's going on with like national health insurance, which has added an anxiety, you know, so, um Kaelyn (38:36): eah, there is, there's absolutely when dealing with this, with anything that is a personal setback, there's a butterfly effect and there's things that are going to come out of this that you won't even think to consider until they're happening non-skiers down the line. But just to, you know, end on a more positive note record. Your prognosis is very good. Rekka (39:11): My prognosis is excellent. Um, everyone's very confident that we can take care of this. Um, so assuming everything goes on schedule, like I said, I will have the surgery, um, by the time you're hearing this, it's already happened and I'm out by a few days. Um, six weeks out from that I start what they're expecting will be six weeks of radiation. Um, basically 12 weeks out from the start of radiation is what is going to be my new normal. And then I won't know until then. So that's like end of July. Kaelyn (39:40): But in the meantime, you have, all of us here. Rekka (39:43): I have amazing support from friends and family and love and support you and, um, you know, we'll of course be thinking about you. And my publisher has been kind enough not to ask me for the draft that they owe them. Kaelyn (39:57): Well, because weirdly enough, you've had a little bit of a personal setback. Yes. Rekka (40:01): Um, the, the writing has been, as I said, I stopped getting up at 5:00 AM so nevermind the mental fatigue of, of dealing with all of us, but I also have less hours in the day, um, because I'm trying to give myself eight hours of sleep every night minimum. And, um, that has definitely impacted the time when I would normally get up and write. And that means by the time I get up in the morning and get to the computer, it's time to start my work day. Uh, what I didn't mention, you know, I'm not a full time writer. I have a day job and I've been missing a lot of time from work for surgeries and treatments, which means that I'm also way behind at work. Um, I know you said you wanted to end this on a positive note, but that was something I meant to mention before. It's like, it's not just, um, you know, can I keep my spirits up and um, give myself the time to get back to writing. Rekka (40:52): It's like I'm, I'm overtaxing myself trying to stay on top of the work because I have another surgery coming up and I'm going to be further behind when I come out of that. So that's a stress too. And so if you don't have, um, you know, total control of your time, then you gotta, you gotta deal with that. And then of course if I did work from home in my writing, not writing would impact my income. You know, the income I rely on. So it's, it's, um, it's not a great situation to be in whether you have a full time job, although I'm very fortunate that I have, um, very understanding employers who are not counting my PTO with regard to this. Um, and I'm being very well taken care of. But having said that, um, our, my, the company I worked for, their largest income earner is a conference, which is, you know, that's the whole thing comes back around to. Kaelyn (41:51): Again, it's a whole butterfly effect, everything is, you know, everything's going to be a, we're going to have to wait and see how it goes. Rekka (41:56): And it's an election year. Kaelyn (41:57): And it's an election here. Rekka (42:01): All right, well, I don't know if we really supplied a lot of answers, but it really does boil down to be understanding for yourself and others around you. Of course. Um, make the time to process and don't try to wall off, um, your anxieties, your fears, your medical conditions from your writing. Um, it's okay if your writing looks different during this time, whether it's your writing time, um, whether you no longer can go to the cafe safely. Um, whether you, um, don't get the writing time in that you want or whether your writing itself starts to feel different because you are processing in your words what's going on inside you. And maybe if you feel like that's undermining something that you were already working on, write something new, you know, write a couple of catharsis short stories and um, do a brain dump. Um, I happened to know that McSweeney's is dealing with a lot of, uh, apocalyptic short fiction right now coming through in their submissions. Um, and it's no wonder, uh, we're just going to all be processing this. Kaelyn (43:14): And we'll be seeing a lot more of it now. Rekka (43:17): Yeah. And the good news is everyone around you kind of understands right now. Um, some of these, yeah. And some of these personal setbacks are going to happen in the future and unrelated to this outbreak and unrelated to, you know, uh, current diagnosis. Um, sometimes it's grief, sometimes it's medical, sometimes it's, you know, work-related. So no matter when it happens or in what capacity, you really just do have to take care of yourself, make room for you to feel what you need to feel and process it. Um, and forgive yourself for not being the, you know, mega productivity robot that you think you should be. Um, you're a human. Your health comes first and that includes your mental health and, um, yeah, I mean that, that would be what I would advise and, you know, talk to someone, therapists, um, pastors. Rekka (44:13): Um, there are a lot of people who can, um, help you process this and you know, friends even, you know, if you have a good community of supporting friends, uh, you know, right now we're all going through it, but there will be times when you, there is somebody who's in a good place and able to take on an emotional burden and really help you. Um, and when we're all going through it together, then we all help each other. Kaelyn (44:36): Aww, that's very nice, Rekka. Rekka (44:39): Thank you. Kaelyn (44:39): Um, well, um, on that note, yes, that's a good, that's a good note to end. Rekka (44:45): Okay. That one there. We'll stop there and I won't provide more horrible information. Kaelyn (44:51): Um, well thanks everyone for listening. You know, as we set this up, this episode is one of our few timely ones and um, you know, we always try to do stuff that's a little more like question and answer or research driven, but this one, you know, with not only what's just going on in the world but what's going on with Raca seemed like a good, a good topic to discuss. So hopefully you're leaving this feeling a little better then when you came in. Rekka (45:15): But um, as always, thank you for listening and you can engage and find us online@wmbcast.com for our backlist of episodes. You can find us at Twitter and Instagram @WMBcast and if you are finding this helpful and you are able, um, we have a Patreon that we would love your support@patreon.com/WMBcast. And, um, if that is not financially viable for you right now, of course, you can always support us by leaving a review on iTunes or Apple podcasts and letting other people know that you liked the podcast or what specifically you liked the podcast for. And that will help other people find and subscribe to us. And if you haven't subscribed yet, of course, please come. Subscribe, subscribe. We always forget to say that one. So yes, we will talk to you in two weeks. And, um, thank you all. I know that I can count on your emotional support, um, while I'm going through this. And, um, some of you are already aware and have reached out and it's, it's been really helpful and I really appreciate you all. Kaelyn (46:24): Please feel free if you are looking to emotionally support Rekka to tweet her pictures of cats and sharks. We like sharks, Rekka (46:29): Sharks especially. Um, yeah, definitely. Kaelyn (46:35): So, yeah. Alright, well thanks again everyone and we'll talk to you two weeks.  

This Q and A topic is all about communication in marriage. Which we mention often in almost every episode because it is such a vital component of marriage. You have to talk to each other! We answer several questions that were submitted by our listeners. Please enjoy. Read Transcript[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're gonna answer your questions about communication in marriage. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe the Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Aaron] Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Marriage After God. It's actually the last episode of season three. So if you've been following along, we're gonna be taking a break, we're about to have a baby. If you've been listening to the last few episodes, you know that. And so, we're gonna have a little break. And then we're gonna come back in another season, in season four. We don't have a date for that yet, which is fine. [Jennifer] We'll let you guys know on social media. [Aaron] Yeah. And then, we'll do some new episodes. And so, just as a side note, if you have topic ideas for the new season, go ahead and shoot those in a message to us on Instagram at @marriageaftergod. But, today we're gonna be answering some questions from the audience, but before we get to the questions we like to talk about some things in life, but really, this first thing I wanna talk about is, I wanna encourage everyone listening today, because I know that there's a lot of fears, there's a lot of anxiety going around with the coronavirus, with things that are happening in the world, and I think some of them are legitimate things to be thinking about and considering. We wanna be wise people, that's what the Bible talks about. We don't wanna just pretend that none of this stuff's gonna affect us. But, my encouragement is to remind everyone listening that our trust is not in this world. Our trust is not in the vaccine that they might come out with. Our trust is not in the government. Our trust is not in the healthcare system. Our trust is not even our bodies. [Jennifer] Or money. [Aaron] Or money. The Bible is very clear where are trust lies, and that when we trust in anything other than God, other than His son Jesus, that trust is faulty, that hope is false, and we're actually insecure in those hopes. So I just wanted to point our hearts and our minds back to the Giver of Life. To the One that we look forward to, the One where our hope should lie, which is in Jesus Christ. Guys, one day we're gonna be with Him forever, and we're gonna have new bodies, we're gonna be healthy, He's gonna make the world right. All these things that are in the world, the destruction, the death, the injustices, the sickness, the pestilence, all those things are going to be made right. And so, once this thing passes, and whatever the damage is going to be, we don't know. But there's always gonna be something else. That's why our eyes need to be on Christ. And so I just hope that if you're having anxieties about this, the Bible tells us how to deal with our anxieties, it's to lift up our request to the Lord with thanksgiving, and to pray to Him. And He says He'll give us a peace that surpasses all understanding. And what I love about that is that our peace in God is completely standalone from everything in our life. That it doesn't matter what's going on in the world, it doesn't matter what's going on in our life, it doesn't matter about our circumstances. You could be like Paul, in prison and be praising God. You can be like Peter in prison, writing letters to the church. You could be in the midst of whatever it is that this world and that the enemy, or whatever it is, wants to throw at you, and you can have complete and perfect peace in Jesus. And so, I just wanted to quickly encourage everyone with that. [Jennifer] No, it was really good. I think that there is just a lot of attention specifically on the coronavirus. What I would say is, it is important to pay attention to what's going on in the world, current events and things like that, but-- [Aaron] Wisdom is good. [Jennifer] When we get those thoughts of fear, or anxiety, or frustration even, we need to remember that even in those times we need to submit those feelings to the Lord, and ask Him to guide us, to lead us, to give us wisdom on how to approach the situation and deal with it. And then remember that our bodies are gonna fail us. Our bodies are gonna get sick. There's gonna be, if it's not this thing, it's another thing, and so we just need to be able to trust the Lord that He knows what's gonna happen to us. He knows everything. [Aaron] He's knows all, He's omniscient. [Jennifer] So we can trust that. [Aaron] We can totally trust Him. And again, this isn't to say do not be wise, like we be wise, if we can make that take measures we do, but we have to remember that we could take every perfect measure, we could take every precaution, we can totally stock up what on whatever, just imagine it, whatever you think you could do to prepare, and your trust in that would still be faulty. Because none of that is actually secure. So, our trust is only good when it's in Christ. So, be prepared to the level that you can, and let the Lord have your fears and rest in Him. That's our encouragement. [Jennifer] Another thing that we wanted to share with you guys is just how incredibly blessed we feel for our relationship with Hobby Lobby. And, I don't know if you guys all know but they carry our books. [Aaron] Which was a total God thing, because there was no way that we were connected with them. I wasn't reaching out. We didn't reach out to them. They actually reached out to us and asked if they could carry our books, and I think it's so awesome. It's one of the cheapest places you can get our books. [Aaron] The cheapest place. [Jennifer] And, who doesn't love Hobby Lobby? I mean, just to be able to go there and peruse, and look at everything. [Aaron] People who've never been to one. [Jennifer] Well, if you haven't been to one, you should go check one out. I'm sure there's one near you. If you're near one, yeah. [Jennifer] But I just wanted to first give a shout out to Hobby Lobby and say thank you. Thank you for being someone who advocates for books like ours, and resources that point people back to God. And I also just wanna thank everyone who has been picking them up and buying them from Hobby Lobby, 'cause that keeps our relationship with them good. [Aaron] That reminds me, I love when people go into Hobby Lobby and they take a picture. And they #hobbylobbyfinds. So if you ever do that, we love to re-share those. So if you are in a Hobby Lobby and you pick up a copy of our books, please take a picture of it, and we'll probably re-share it on our Instagram. [Jennifer] Just make sure you tag us @marriageaftergod so that we see it. [Aaron] Exactly, 'cause if you don't tag us, we don't know. But yeah, so that's just a couple of things, just encouragement on the chaos in the world that had our peace. And then just, we're incredibly blessed and honored by Hobby Lobby and their partnership with us. That, to be honest, I don't think we deserve. I don't think we've, it's a God thing, that He set this up and we just wanna give Him the glory for that. [Jennifer] And if you're like me and you have been wanting to order our books, and you want it today, you can go pick one up today. You don't have to order it online and then wait for it. They have them in stock. And they're in every Hobby Lobby, which is amazing. So, it doesn't matter which one, unless they're out of stock. But they carry them everywhere. [Jennifer] Once I know what I want, it's so hard to wait when I do online shopping and stuff. I just wanna go get everything. [Aaron] But now Amazon has one day shipping, which is crazy. [Jennifer] I don't know how they do it. [Aaron] I don't either. But it gets here. Okay, so, one last thing, we have a another prayer challenge. I don't know if you've taken the marriage prayer challenge yet. Over 50,000 people have taken the marriage prayer challenge, which is incredible. So, we have this new challenge called the parenting prayer challenge, and it's a prayer challenge for you to pray for your son or your daughter, or both. Or all of them. Or all of them. Depending on how many kids you have. Yeah, all your kids. And it's completely free. Just got to parentingprayerchallenge.com and fill out the form and choose who you wanna pray for, and we'll start sending emails every day. [Jennifer] You guys might be wondering how it's set up because, obviously, they're not individualized prayers for you and your child, but they're prompts. So, it'll suggest pray for this specific thing, and then, as you're praying, you're making it personal because you know your family best. [Aaron] And it's a scheduled daily reminder. So you get this email, it says hey, you're gonna pray for your son right now, and here's what you should pray for. And it's not to replace your prayer life, it's to encourage it, inspire it, and give you a new outlook on your prayer life, and maybe expand upon it. One more time, it's parentingprayerchallenge.com to go sign up for the parenting prayer challenge. [Jennifer] All right so, this last episode of the season is a Q&A. We polled the community, the Marriage After God community, and Unveiled Wife and Husband Revolution, and we asked you guys to submit your questions, specifically about communication in marriage. And so, first of all, we just wanna thank everyone who sent us your questions. It's been cool to be able to poll the questions from the audience from Instagram, from you guys, and to answer them here. It makes me feel more connected and I love it. [Aaron] They often ask things that I'm not even thinking about. I'm like oh, that's a good question. So, it's really fun that we ask you guys. It also makes us feel like we're connected with you on another level. So, if you follow us on Instagram, that's usually where we poll our audience. You could follow @marriageaftergod, or @unveiledwife, or @husbandrevolution. We're gonna be doing Q&A's often, so if you see us pop a question and ask you to give us your questions, just submit them there, and we store them and we pick from them, and we try and answer them on here. [Jennifer] Yeah, and just let you guys know because of timing, we don't always get through every question, and so if you're listening and you're like, "I know I submitted a question "for communication in marriage," and we didn't answer it, please reach back out to us and just let us know, and maybe we can just answer it on Instagram for you. [Aaron] Or on the next time. [Jennifer] Or on the next Q&A. [Aaron] Cool. So, before we jump into the questions, why don't we just talk about some of the scriptures that, when I think about communication, these scriptures aren't just, they're not necessarily communication between a spouse. But it's-- [Jennifer] With each other. [Aaron] Yeah, it's with [Both] people. With one anothers in the church. [Jennifer] Very applicable to marriage. [Aaron] So I'm just gonna read through a handful of scriptures. [Jennifer] I'll read the first one 'cause it's shorter. You read the second one. [Aaron] All right. [Jennifer] Psalm 141:3 says, "Set a guard, O Lord, over my mouth; "keep watch over the door of my lips." [Aaron] Yeah, and I pulled some of these scriptures to just show what a biblical perspective over our mouth is. And the things that we say. In Matthew 12:33 Jesus is talking to the Pharisees, and He says this, "Either make a tree good and its fruit good, "or make a tree bad and its fruit bad. For the tree is known by its fruit." [Jennifer] Like we know a peach tree is a peach tree because it has peaches. [Aaron] Or it's one of those fruit salad trees. [Jennifer] Well, that would be confusing. [Aaron] Which totally ruins the analogy. But anyways, "You brood of Vipers, "how can you speak good when you are evil? "For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. "The good person out of his good treasure "brings forth good, and the evil person of the evil treasure "brings forth evil. "I tell you, on the day of judgment, "people will give account "for every careless word they speak. "For by your words you will be justified, "and by your words you will be condemned." [Jennifer] So what you're saying is words are powerful? [Aaron] They matter, yeah. We need to know that, we can't, like this specifically, and we just talked about this, actually, the other day, we say something and then we say I'm just venting, or I'm just kidding. But in reality if, it's coming from somewhere, those words that we just conjured up out of our mouth. They came from somewhere, and so we need to be careful and aware, like wait, so I said this thing and I wanted to make it sound like it wasn't that bog of a deal, but why did I say that? Why did I say that about so and so? [Jennifer] If someone has self control of their tongue, and they think, they're about to say something, but they decide not to, which is good, I would say they still need to evaluate their heart and question why was that even on the tip of my tongue? [Aaron] Why did it come out so quickly? And often, I would imagine this is about people in our life, and then if we say something so quickly, even if it's to someone in confidence, and we think, wait, am I actually angry at this person, or am I actually annoyed by this person, or bothered, or judgmental or whatever? And we have to think about that 'cause sometimes that comes out of our mouth and it's not from a pure heart. [Jennifer] And I'll say this, words cut deep, and when, especially in marriage, you see that person, you just see their face and you're reminded of what they've said, either recently or years ago. And you can hear them saying it in your mind, over and over again. And so, I think we just need to be reminded that we have a huge responsibility with our words. [Aaron] The next verse is from James, but there's another verse in James that we didn't write down here, that talks about having control of your tongue, and how the tongue is a, it's a small member of a body, but it's actually like a flame that can start a fire. And you're in the members of your body. It's also talked about as a rudder, something that, you have a large ship that is controlled by such a little thing. The things we say actually matter to a point of it directing our lives. But it starts off with saying, if someone has complete control over their tongue, they're a perfect man. So, we all know that we don't have complete control over our tongue 'cause we're not Jesus. Jesus was perfect. And everything He said was controlled. [Jennifer] So, when we're not perfect, and we're not controlled, what's our response should be? [Aaron] Repentance. At least recognizing it and saying, whoa, what I said was off. [Jennifer] Apology, reconciliation. [Aaron] I know I can't put those words back. It's like toothpaste, it comes out, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. So James 1:19-20 says, "Know this my beloved brothers, "let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, "slow to anger, for the anger of man does not produce "the righteousness of God." So this is more a practical tip of, hey, to save yourself from saying something you don't mean, [Jennifer] Be slow. [Aaron] Be slower to say it, probably stop yourself. [Jennifer] I just wanna say, it also says be quick to hear. And I think, sometimes we wanna justify the things that we say. [Aaron] What? [Jennifer] We're not actually listening to how our words are affecting the other person, and so I think, I know you said this is practical, a really practical tip is just questioning, evaluating, making sure that you're being a good listener in your marriage. [Aaron] Listening to yourself, and listening to the person talking to you. [Jennifer] And to the Holy Spirit. [Aaron] Yeah, and to the Holy Spirit. [Jennifer] Okay, next one Proverbs 12:18, "There is one whose rash words are like sword thrusts, "but the tongue of the wise brings healing." [Aaron] Again, showing the power of our words towards others. [Jennifer] Such vivid imagery there. [Aaron] Here's one, Proverbs 18:2, "A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, "but only expresses his own opinion." So, we have to be careful about this, this is something I've struggled with in the past, my foolishness of just only interested in sharing my opinion. Like, oh, well let me tell you what I think, let me tell you what I think, rather than listening, rather than being thoughtful, rather than actually considering the other person. I've dealt with that for sure. [Jennifer] Another one is Proverbs 18:13, "If one gives an answer before He hears," again, going back to be a good listener. [Aaron] This ever happens to me, I don't do this. I do all the time. [Jennifer] "If one gives an answer before he hears, "it is his folly and shame." [Aaron] So, the next one, and the last one, which is by far not the last verse, 'cause there's tons of scripture that talks about how we communicate and the way we communicate. Proverbs 18:21, "Death and life "are in the power of the tongue, "and those who love it will eat its fruits." So, understanding that our tongues are powerful. If we love the power of our tongue, we're going to eat the fruits of it. Meaning, if we want to share our thoughts, and we're totally fine with just speaking things, we need to be able to be aware that those words are ours, and we have to own them. [Jennifer] All right, so that was just a little foundational prep for communication in marriage, just looking at a biblical way to communicate with your spouse. [Aaron] And get a perspective on how we use our words. [Jennifer] 'Cause honestly, no matter what question we answer, that was probably the most important that you hear today. [Aaron] Yeah, the scripture. Not our words, the Bible's words. Always. So, question one from the community says, how do you two come together and talk about your dreams as a couple and as a family? [Jennifer] Oh cool, I like that it's as a couple and as a family. Which we do talk about, dreaming together, in "Marriage After God", and I just love that chapter. Just because it's something that Aaron and I have found a lot of joy in. [Aaron] It's fun. [Jennifer] It's fun. And what we do is, we look at our life and we say, okay God, what do you wanna do with us? And we get to talk about it. [Aaron] How would you say, how have we been doing it over the last few years? [Jennifer] So, our biggest, probably dreaming session, as a couple happens at the end of the year, and we take time to go over what did that last year look like? What's still on our plate? And what things do we wanna try and accomplish in that next year? And it takes a good three hours or more to get through. [Aaron] But they're fun. [Jennifer] Just because it's a lot, but it's so fun, and we do it over dinner. And then we have checkups throughout the year, when things change, circumstances change, or goals change, or we accomplish things sooner than later. So, we just check in with each other throughout the year. [Aaron] Or we're in the middle of a goal, accomplishing a goal, and we evaluate, is this what we really want? Now that we're in the middle of this thing, which we've done. [Jennifer] I will say this, our dreams don't come from nowhere. Well, for one thing, there's seeds planted by God that we feel really strongly about that God gives us these desires that we have. But we also, what we call the tool belt, our marriage tool belt, we look at what we have, and we go from there. [Aaron] Yeah, and it's not like, we talk about this in the book a lot more, the practical side of it. We're not just throwing out, and casting a line out as far as possibly, and trying to see what we can grab. We look at what God is doing in our life, what we've already accomplished, in Christ, of course. [Jennifer] It's like we take that next step. [Aaron] And we say okay, if we have any money, we say okay, how do You want us to use this money? Our home, our cars, our business? And then we even talk about things that we would love to explore and pursue. And we hold all of it loosely, pretty much usually, right? [Jennifer] Yeah. 'Cause there's nothing we can guarantee. [Jennifer] Another fun way to do this is, on those smaller check ins or smaller dreaming sessions, when we like to talk about it, we like to go on a drive, let's say like a 40 minute drive. It's super fun. We're both buckled in. Can't leave the conversation. And we just talk about it there. But, I love doing this and I think that, over the years, Aaron, wouldn't you agree, that it's something that's been cultivated in our marriage because of our intentionality? It's not really something that is just gonna happen on its own, but it's also something that, I don't know, we put the time in to do it. [Aaron] Well, I'll say this, and this would be my one tip in this section, is yes, it needs to be scheduled. So, you and your spouse need to say, we are going to do this, and we're gonna do it on this date. So it's on the calendar. And then the other part is, setting actual goals, writing them down. So, for us, you may not be us, you're goals are gonna look different. Maybe they'll be the same, but, we'll say we want to have this book self published, or traditionally published next year or this year. Or, usually, the traditionally published is a little bit more out of our control. But, self publishing, we wanna have this book published by this date. And then that one goal gives us a whole list of tasks that need to be accomplished before, for that goal to happen. And so, setting that goal and giving it a realistic time frame, and writing it down on paper, and verbalizing it out loud. [Jennifer] The success rate is so much higher. [Aaron] Oh yeah. [Jennifer] Let's use finances. If we had a goal for finances and we just talked about it-- [Aaron] We wanna save $1000. [Jennifer] By next week, we would have forgotten what the plan was. So it's like, oh yeah, we talked about that, I think. So, when you go to write something down, I feel like it's super helpful. [Aaron] The finances is actually a good one. I would imagine almost everyone has some sort of financial goals. Maybe getting out of debt, or saving for a vacation, or pay for college, or who knows what it is? And so, setting the goal, a realistic goal, the thing that you know you can attain, and you can come up with those strategies of, we're going to save $10 a month, or $100 a month, or we're not going to buy this thing every week. When you do that, and you say it out loud, there's now accountability as well. So, something comes up and you could spend the money on it, and you both look at each other and be like, are we willing to cast out that goal we set four months ago? No? Then we have to say no to this. Even though it's difficult. And so now you both are on the same page. And man, that actually feels like victorious. You're like wow, we just said no to something that we really wanted, because there's this better thing down the road that we're saving for. So, I would say set those goals, put them on paper, say them out loud, put them on the refrigerator, put them on a chalkboard, make them visible. And it's true, your success rate exponentially grows. [Jennifer] Again, I really like the second part of this question 'cause they also wanna know how do you do it as a family? So, you have kids involved. I'd say, as our family, Aaron, you are really good about leading our kids through these things, and prompting their hearts, and preparing their hearts. [Aaron] Well, thank you. [Jennifer] And just asking them really good questions. Our children are still pretty young, so we don't download every dream or goal to them. We don't feel the need to explain everything, but as we talk about dreaming together, and as we set goals we do keep the impact it will have on our family in mind. [Aaron] Well, always, yeah. [Jennifer] And so, we share it with our kids, and we'll talk about it, and we'll invite them to participate in the ways that they can. [Aaron] And I would say, because we have this pattern of setting goals and dreaming together, we teach our kids how to do it. So, I'll tell my son, and he's drawing, and he might get to a point of not wanting to complete the thing he's creating. And then I'll tell him, I'll be like, hey, do you wanna be a really good artist one day? And he'll be like, "Yeah." I'll be like well, the way people become really good artists is a lot of practice. I said, so I know that it's difficult to finish this, or you wanna move on to the next thing, and I totally get that because you're excited but, there's a lot of value in you sitting and finishing this and coloring it, and you'll see a completed work. So, that's a little way of teaching my son on how to set a goal. [Jennifer] And that's really good, what I would call that is casting vision, 'cause you're showing him what the future would look like, but what it requires, and I think the same exact thing is important for marriage that both the husband and wife are reminding each other constantly. Because this whole episode is about communication, our words matter. We need to be encouraging each other. We need to be reminding each other, hey, remember we set this goal, hey, remember, this was our strategy, hey, this is what's gonna happen once we meet it, and encourage each other and stimulate each others hearts toward those those goals in that way. [Aaron] I totally agree. That's good. Let's move on to the second question, how do you gracefully bring up subjects that have been touchy in the past? You don't, you just skip over them, you just ignore it. I'm just kidding. No, this is a hard one 'cause sometimes you can't avoid the sensitivity of it, in some scenarios. [Jennifer] I think it's good to be sensitive to it. [Aaron] What I'm saying is not that we be just harsh, or cold about it. I'm just saying you could come, I would imagine that there's some conversations that you can come perfectly gentle, with the best intentions, with the best words, and it will still be a hard conversation. That your spouse still may take it very personally. So I would say you come cautiously, you come patiently. And I would say the number one thing is make sure your heart's right. Is your intention because you're just bothered and you want this thing to change and there they go again? Is that your heart, or is your heart that you actually care that they're growing, they're changing, they're following through with their own words, because of their integrity, 'cause you love them, and you wanna see the mature? So, if your heart is a selfish one, like, I'm gonna go deal with this because I'm offended, which doesn't mean you're not allowed to have offenses. We have to deal with our offenses. But, if it's a conversation from the past, we have a lot of these, about specific things in our life, and some things are little, and some things are big things. I would say, don't avoid them, but make sure that our hearts are right, and make sure that the intention is for actual growth and maturity in your spouse, or for healing. Do you have any tips on that? [Jennifer] Yeah, I was just gonna say that, when I go into conversations like this, I genuinely desire a good conversation about it. And, I think the most important thing that we could do, knowing that it's been touchy in the past, is pray for each other before we even get to the conversation. So, praying that I have the right heart, bringing it to the table, if I'm the one bringing it, and praying that I share in a respectful way, with the right words, words that will bring you understanding, but I also pray for your heart that, if there is sensitivity or anything like that, that you would be able to respond in an understanding way as well. That we're able to come together and have a good conversation about it. And I think that doing it with God at the center is the most important thing that we could do. [Aaron] The tip for the person having the topic brought up to is humbleness. And also, being aware of defensiveness. I do this. I get defensive, we just had a conversation and I was defensive. And you called me, and you're like, "Why are you being defensive about this?" Often, defensiveness is self preservation. It's selfish, often. And so, if we're defending ourselves, then we're not in unity, and we're also not being humble. [Jennifer] You're also not being quick to hear. [Aaron] And I'm also not being quick to hear. Thank you for reminding me of that. [Jennifer] I don't know if this helps practically but, when we go into conversations like this, I'll usually say something to Aaron like, hey, I really wanna share something with you, but, just so you know, my intention's not to upset you, or point the finger at you. It's just something that I've realized or recognized recently that I wanna talk about. Is that okay? Making sure that there's a place and a space for that conversation. You don't wanna just bring it up when you're at the dinner table, or you're walking into-- [Aaron] Right here on the podcast. Actually, I've been wanting to bring up to-- [Jennifer] No. [Aaron] Not on the podcast. [Jennifer] No. [Aaron] And then, one last note on this. I think we can get in a pattern sometimes. Some relationships are special in this way, but I think a lot of us can, in some way, have this pattern of bringing up everything. And not overlooking certain things. There's this one thing that we actually, it's not that big of a deal, but I just have to bring it up every single time 'cause I don't wanna have to deal with it ever again. And so I think, truly internally evaluating, is the thing I wanna bring up, is it a thing that needs to be brought up? Or is it something that I can actually just let go? The Bible tells us that love covers a multitude of sins. So not that we overlook sin and pretend sin doesn't exist, but if I said something one time, we're talking and I said something and you're like, "Well that was rude." But you know I didn't mean it, it doesn't need to be brought up, in that one scenario. Now, if it's a pattern, like I'm always rude, that's one thing, but if I said something, and you think, "He must've not meant that." Or, the way they are with something. Sometimes it just needs to be let go. [Jennifer] And I wanna speak to the other side, if your spouse is coming to you with something, I was gonna say something of importance, but, no matter when your spouse comes to you, how would you answer this question, does your spouse feel like they're walking on eggshells around you? Does it feel like you're here, there's a layer of eggshell around you, and they can't come that close to you? Does that make sense? [Aaron] Yeah. So I think it's important for both sides that people listening can evaluate, okay, am I being aware of what I'm bringing up, and is it necessary? And then, how are my responses towards my spouse? Am I someone who gets defensive? Am I being selfish? [Aaron] Am I being critical? Like I'm just over-critiquing my spouse. [Jennifer] Yeah, and so I think that's it's important to think about are we setting ourselves up for putting eggshells down to where no one wants to come close to us and ask us those hard things. [Aaron] And I think a good remedy for this, specifically, 'cause we're not tryna say, don't have conversations that need to happen. What we're talking about is evaluation and discernment. Is the thing that I want to bring up something that should be brought up? So my solution to that is, when you wanna bring something up, first evaluate in yourself if the thing that you're seeing or wanting to talk about in your spouse, is something that you deal with, but maybe in a different way. Because often, we're very keen to sin or issues in other people's lives that we ourselves deal with. Someone's always late to something for you and it bothers you. And then you realize that you're always late for something else. But you don't think about it. So, ask yourself, is this something that I deal with? And truly ask yourself, because if you care about it in them, you should care about it in yourself 'cause want to. So, just a little tip. [Jennifer] It's good. All right, question number three is, how do you talk to your spouse when they are distracted by their phone? Can we just skip this one? Just kidding. [Aaron] Again, I never do this. [Jennifer] Okay, repeat that for everyone to just take a minute and hear. [Aaron] How do you talk to your spouse when they are distracted by their phone? You can't. [Jennifer] We have struggled with this so much you guys. [Aaron] Before there was phones, there was TV. If you're ever sitting next to me and I'm looking at a TV, I'm not even watching what's on the TV, everything's shut off in my brain. Which is why we don't have a TV 'cause I would just sit there and I'd be gone for hours. [Jennifer] This is true, but, what I was gonna say is, before phones there was an iPod. And I remember when the first iPod came out and we were dating. [Aaron] And it only did one thing. [Jennifer] I know, one thing. And I'm sitting at a restaurant, next to you, and you've got the wire from the cord in your ear, both ears, and you're scrolling through music on your iPod. [Aaron] Now, to my defense, I had just got it. [Jennifer] You were so excited about it. [Aaron] Yeah, I was excited about it. [Jennifer] But here's the point, we do get distracted, and it's a real thing, and I think it's important to talk about. [Aaron] Yeah, I would say, and Jennifer, you've gotten good at this, Aaron, I'm tryna talk to you, can you put your phone down please? Because I didn't even know you were talking to me, and you've been talking to me. And I'm on my phone. Which we have whole episode on phones and boundaries, which is something we're constantly working on. But being free to say that, say hey, can you put your phone away? I wanna chat with you. And you've also gotten good at voicing to me how it makes you feel. You're talking to me and I-- [Jennifer] Mid-sentence you'll pull it out. [Aaron] And then I'm on my phone. Maybe it buzzed or something, and I'm on it. Or, we're talking about something, and it's something that I need to do, and so I go to do it while you're talking to me. [Jennifer] Yeah, oh gosh. [Aaron] You're like, can you-- [Jennifer] Can you wait 'til I'm done? [Aaron] Do that after we're done? I know that you're excited to do that. Yes, it's mostly on my side, sorry. I would say yeah, just get really good at voicing it, hey, can you put your phone away so we can have a chat? I know that's distracting. You're gonna get on it afterwards, but, so we're not distracted, let's put our phones away. But, be willing to receive it on both sides. 'Cause we're cellphone generation. [Jennifer] I was gonna say, I think it's important to have patience with each other because, yes, we are a part of a generation that uses technology on a daily basis. This is such a hard one because it's not just you, Aaron, it happens to both of us. But being aware and allowing your spouse to help you be aware, so not getting defensive when they say something about you being distracted on your phone. I don't know. [Aaron] A little side note about cellphones, something fun that we've done in our community for a long time, I don't know if I started it or someone else did, someone must've started it, but if see someone on their phone and they're spending time with you, just lean over and be like, hey, who you hanging out with? [Jennifer] It's kinda mean and sarcastic but. [Aaron] What's powerful about it is, oh, I'm hanging out with people on my phone, not the people that I'm actually hanging out with. But that's has nothing to do with someone distracted by their phone. If you're distracted, you just gotta ask, hey, this is an important conversation, or I wanna tell you something, can you put your phone away for just a second so we can chat? [Jennifer] I will say this, Aaron, you have been making it a point this last year to leave your phone in the car, especially-- [Aaron] On Sundays. [Jennifer] On Sundays, so that we are not distracted during fellowship time. You leave it out in the living room at bedtime, so you're not constantly scrolling in the bed. On date nights, you tend to leave it in the car. [Aaron] What I'm tryna to do is just, because I know how prone I am to just pick it up when it's near me, I'm tryna find ways of getting it away from me. Which I wish that I could do more. [Jennifer] We've also had some pretty deep encounters with our kids, where they recognize that we're on our phones in front of them, and I think we've shared this on the podcast before, but just realizing how it impacts our relationship with them as well. [Aaron] I think that's an adequate answer for now. [Jennifer] Which is, what is the solution here? [Aaron] Tell them. [Jennifer] Tell them. [Aaron] Can you please put it down so we can chat? [Jennifer] Hey, just so you know, it hurts my feelings when I'm talking to you and you're looking at your phone. Oh also, I gotta mention this, if you're in the middle of a really heavy conversation, and there's no resolve yet, but there's been silence for a while, don't just jump on the phone, that hurts so bad. Just-- [Aaron] Remain in the situation. [Jennifer] Remain in the situation, remain in the silence until it gets figured out. And if it doesn't get figured out, communicate that with each other say, hey, we're just gonna put this on pause until we can figure it out, and then move on. But don't do it without that communication. [Aaron] That's a very good point. [Jennifer] Okay, number four. [Aaron] As a wife, how do you teach yourself to respond, ask, speak respectfully to your husband? [Jennifer] So I guess I have to answer that? [Aaron] Well, it's not for me. [Jennifer] Okay, so first you have to know what respect is. I remember back when we were first going to a marriage ministry, probably in third, fourth year of our marriage, and there was a group of young wives that I was friends with, and we're hanging out one night, and I remember asking them how would you define respect? I don't remember really growing up understanding. I kinda knew it what respect was, and I could get by with a makeshift definition, but I didn't actually know what it looked like in marriage. And they didn't either. It was like they looked at me like why would you even ask that question? [Aaron] Why're you even bringing that word up in our midst? [Jennifer] And I'm just sharing that because I do think it's important to know what respect is. So Google says respect is a feeling of deep admiration for someone. So, if you want to teach yourself to respond respectfully, you should know why you respect your spouse, right? [Aaron] Right. [Jennifer] You should know why you deeply admire them. 'Cause that's what's gonna fuel you or propel you to respond that way. [Aaron] Do you think a wife can respond respectfully to husband who is not respectable. [Jennifer] That's a really hard question, and I don't feel comfortable answering it for every single person, 'cause I don't know every single situation, but I would say this as an encouragement, that there are some things that you can find to admire about a person. [Aaron] The thought I had, and I was thinking about, not a spouse, how should we respond to a stranger that we know nothing about? With honor, with respect, with kindness, right? So my point was, I think, that in pretty much most situations, on the individual level of a person who loves the Lord, we can find, even if it's not for the husband's sake, or the spouse's sake, out of my respect and love for the Lord, I'm going to speak to this person the way Christ speaks to me. [Jennifer] That's a better answer than I gave. [Aaron] I think you were being careful. I don't think your answer was bad. That's what I was thinking about is, regardless if they find something respectable, 'cause a lot of people might struggle with that, I don't respect my husband, therefore I'm gonna talk-- [Jennifer] I'm not gonna, and then that becomes a justification. [Aaron] And on both sides, I don't respect my wife because of this, this and this, therefore I'm going to, rather than treating them the way Christ wants you to treat them. [Jennifer] That's good. Well, I think that we can, just as you're talking about we can be respectful, and it's not contingent on other people. We can be respectful in our communication towards others, towards our spouse, and like you said, out of that love and admiration for the Lord. I love that. And that that will influence our relationship. My admiration for you has grown over the years. [Aaron] Totally, and vice versa. And I would say also, none of this subtracts from the kinds of things we get to say. If you need to tell someone, which you told me before about my sin in my life, what it was doing to God, what the reality of it was, but you said it so respectfully, so honoringly. And the Bible says to speak the truth in love. It doesn't say don't speak the truth because you want them to not feel bad. You can still say really difficult things to someone in a loving, respectful way. So that's just a thought I had. [Jennifer] Just to clarify too, the question was how do you teach yourself to respond, and ask, and speak respectfully? I would say the one word that comes to mind is practice. That's probably what I should have just started with. But practice. As you practice this, and as you walk in it, it will become more natural for you to respond respectfully. [Aaron] That's good. And remember who you're doing it for. It's not necessarily your spouse, it's for God, because you love the Lord. Yeah, that's good. And it goes for the husbands too. The answer is the same. Okay, so number five says, what do you do when one spouse gets tired of talking and stops listening, and refuses to respond, or to keep the conversation going? This is like that situation, we're having, it's a difficult conversation, maybe it's a frustrating conversation, maybe it's just another one of those conversations that we've had 20 times. Well, first of all, you can't control your spouse, just, I think, the quick answer is that you can't control me-- [Jennifer] You can't force them to give you an answer or or to-- [Aaron] You can lovingly say hey, it's really hurting me that you're refusing to finish this. Is there a better way we can finish it later maybe? Or can we finish it now? I would say also, being understanding in the situation of how the conversation's going. Often, these kinds of conversations are the ones that are, both spouses are at each other, both spouses are annoyed, both spouses are selfish. [Jennifer] Both probably need some humility. [Aaron] Yeah. I would say just, sometimes maybe you just need to step back and pray for your spouse and say hey, I get that you probably aren't interested right now, but we need to have this conversation. Can we do it another time? [Jennifer] I know some things that I like to do with you is, hey, I get that were not in agreement on this, can we just pray about it and close with prayer, and ask God to reveal things to you over the course of however many days, or until you talk about it again. [Aaron] And I would also say, for the one who's wanting to continue in the conversation, so one's checking out, and the one's like hey, we're not done. Maybe ask yourself, are you elongating because you haven't gotten retribution yet, or are you wanting this to keep going because you haven't convinced them yet of your side? Are you wanting to, discern and spiritually evaluate if you're wanting the right thing? Are you wanting reconciliation or you wanting to be right? Are you wanting unity or you waiting for them to yield? And this goes for the husband or the wife. And so, ask yourself, are they checking out because they're not getting to where I want them to be? And that's why I keep going. Rather than hey, are we gonna find a solution, a unifying solution? Are we gonna find reconciliation, are we gonna find a place that we're back in the right relationship with each other? Rather than I'm getting my way and they've come to my side? [Jennifer] That's good. I know I keep going back to prayer, but if your spouse is getting tired of the conversation and refusing to continue it, pray for their heart. Pray that the Lord would minister to them, and transform them, and bring resolve through them, because ultimately, it's the Holy Spirit, right, that does it. Mm hmm, amen. [Jennifer] Okay, moving on to number six. How do you overcome the fear of vulnerability? That's a really big question, but it can be simplified. [Aaron] I think it has to be. Well, first of all, most people are afraid of being vulnerable. [Jennifer] I would say everybody is. Vulnerability isn't something that's like, yeah, let's be vulnerable. It's hard. [Aaron] It's spiritual nakedness. It's showing what's on the inside, and often we don't like what's on the inside. And so I would say, you said earlier, practice. But really, asking the Spirit of God. Say God, transform me in this because, it was other people's vulnerability with us that freed us to be more vulnerable. [Jennifer] It gave us the courage. [Aaron] So yeah, if you're struggling with this, just pray and say Lord-First of all, regardless if you never reveal anything about yourself, we all know who we are. We are wretched. We are sinners who need a Savior, who need His righteousness, who need His power to transform us. And so, just recognizing that and say, okay Lord, humble me, and help me be open so that you can A, change me, the things that I'm afraid of, the things that I don't like, the ickiness, the grossness inside me, but also use that vulnerableness, use that transparency to free others, to heal others. Not because of me, but because of You, Lord. I don't know, that's my idea. [Jennifer] I think a big thing that I learned through being vulnerable in marriage, is having this resolve to understand that love requires risk in making yourself known. So, what I mean by that is, in order for me to know that my husband loves me, like actual me, not someone who's pretending over here is-- [Aaron] Not what you show me. [Jennifer] You have to know me, so I have to reveal it to you, and that requires risk. Because that means I'm gonna share something with you, and then you get to respond. So there's a risk involved, and that's what makes it hard. But I'd say, like you said, practice is really good, and then I was just gonna plug the Unveiled Wife here, because if you wanna get to know someone who wasn't vulnerable, and then was extremely vulnerable, not just with you, Aaron, but with the whole world by writing a book about it. [Aaron] It was a big deal for us. [Jennifer] The Unveiled Wife is my journey of learning vulnerability in marriage and with God. [Aaron] That was good. So, question number seven, we have been married over a decade and feel like we lost things to talk about. [Jennifer] Aah. So, I would say, Find things to talk about. [Jennifer] I would say start learning again. So, Aaron has this really great quality about him where, when he gets excited about something, he just starts learning about it, I don't know. [Aaron] I research. [Jennifer] Yeah, you have this research brain where you just, you get hooked on something. Even with the kids, like when it comes to Legos, it's like, oh Elliot, I figured out this new thing. You're even learning the Rubik's Cube, okay. You been researching. I have been. [Jennifer] Watching YouTube videos, and you been sharing it with me. So you'll sit down on the couch with me and be like, "Babe, look at this," what do you call it? Algorithm. Algorithm. And you do this twist thing and I'm not following, but I'm just smiling 'cause my husband loves to share this with me. [Aaron] And then you see it working and you're like, "How'd you do that?" [Jennifer] Yeah, it's pretty awesome. So start learning something again that you can share with them. It could be anything. And then talk about it with them. [Aaron] And to be honest, if you've lost things to talk about, I don't know this person. I don't know their life. But if you guys are in a place, if you're in a place that you have nothing to talk about, first of all, that's not true. There's never nothing to talk about. There's never nothing to explore with each other, and to walk with in each other. There's, at minimum, there's tons of challenges in life to have to navigate. [Jennifer] So you're saying they're choosing not to share things? [Aaron] Yeah, I would say, I don't think it's possible to have nothing to talk about. [Jennifer] Especially if you have children. If you have children, you have a lot to talk about. [Aaron] Well, and the other thing is, is if we're pursuing God together, if we're looking to what He's doing, He's going to reveal to you sin in your life, He's gonna give you jobs to do, like this idea of He's got work for us to do, good works that He's prepared for us since the foundations of the world, those things are remarkable, meaning that they are able to be remarked about. There's something to be talked about. And so, I think that if there's nothing to talk about, there's potentially, maybe your minds aren't on heavenly things. Maybe your minds are an earthly things, and worry, and things that you're not looking up. [Jennifer] Or maybe there's sin your guys's life that you've been avoiding confronting because-- [Aaron] Mm hmm, sin keeps us in darkness. So I would just challenge you, if you think there's nothing to talk about, I would start praying and say Lord, what's in my life, what's in our life that is keeping us from each other? Keeping us silent, keeping us in the darkness, keeping us from moving forward and being excited about life? Guys, if you're believers, we have the greatest hope, everyone in the world, the greatest hope is for the believer. That's remarkable. That's something to talk about, forever. We're going to do it in Heaven. We're gonna be worshiping the Lord, forever in Heaven. So, if we've lost that excitement now, we gotta ask ourselves why? What's taking it away? Where have we misplaced that? [Jennifer] Now simply, if you're just bored, and you've forgotten how to communicate with each other, and ask each other good questions, I have to let that we have a freebie for you called Date Night Conversation Starters, and you can take these out on your next date, or just hanging out in the house, and use one of those to prompt a question and get started talking. [Aaron] Start asking questions to each other. You can go to datenightconversations.com. Was that prompted, was that planned? [Jennifer] I just thought about it. [Aaron] These are some good things to think about. [Jennifer] Okay, we're gonna get through these next ones fairly quickly, just for times sake, but, how do you get an introvert to communicate? Here, let me change it, Aaron, how did you get me to communicate in marriage? 'Cause I'm an introvert. Keep asking you questions. Never give up. Do it gently with love. The goal is not to ever change someone, the goal's to engage, and the goal is to encourage, and exhort, and to lift up, and to love, and to strengthen. Remember, you're one, and God's given you unique characteristics for a reason. So, they're not things to be bothered by or hated, they might be things that need to be grown in. Just because, quote unquote, I'm an introvert, doesn't mean that quote unquote, you need to stay an introvert. [Jennifer] Don't label yourself that way. [Aaron] You can grow. You never know, what God wants to grow you into, and transform you into. So don't just say well, this is what I am, and therefore that's what I am. [Jennifer] I'll say this, over the years, Aaron, your affirmation and encouragement has really gone a long way in that, you ask me a question, and maybe I'll answer it very quickly or short, or maybe not at all. And you say, just so you know, I want to hear from you. That affirmation, hearing that over and over again, reminds my heart, my mind, he really does just wanna know. [Aaron] And then, one last little thing I would say, recognizing and cultivating the differences in your spouse will make them feel loved and makes your spouse more able to communicate in those times that they can't-So, if they're introverted, recognize that in your spouse in saying, hey, why don't you get some time alone, when you go be with the Lord, I'll take care of the family, I'll take care of the kids, or whatever. And that let's them know that you appreciate them, and their differences, their uniqueness, and you're excited about it. You're like, how can you use that in a good way, so that in those times that it's necessary, you're not allowed to just retreat into your title, into your whatever. They they know that you love them, and that you're saying hey, I know this is hard for you, but we do need to deal with this. [Jennifer] Yeah, that's really good. Okay, so the next one says, how do you stay in touch with your spouse when your husband works two jobs and you're a stay at home mom? I'm just gonna answer this one really quickly for what comes to my mind is get creative, text them, send love letters, make a journal where you guys can pass it back and forth, putting things on the schedule and protecting that time, even if you're super tired or there's other circumstances going on. I would say that those are some practical ways that I would answer that. And I'm sorry, that's such a hard question to try and answer, but the communication is still a priority. [Aaron] I would say if it's a priority, we'll do it. And we have a brother in our church that leaves real early in the morning, comes back real late, and he just he works a long job, and he records videos of him reading the Bible, and asking questions and sends them to his kids. So even though he can't be home, when he has the break, when he has the time, he make sure to, everyday, send them something to lead them and disciple them. So, father's who have these jobs, if you're listening to this, and maybe you're on the road right now, don't use your absence as an excuse to not disciple and lead your children and family. There's ways to do it, especially in this day and age, man, we have technology. You could FaceTime every day, there's ways to do it. So I just wanna encourage you that, get creative like my wife said, find ways of connecting with your spouse and your children regularly, to show them that you're there. Because even though you can't physically be there, you can spiritually. [Jennifer] Cool. Okay, we got two questions left. The next one is, how do you handle conflict when you are very irritated? Which happens to all of us, right? No one's immune to irritability or irritation. But the verse that I thought of was Psalm 4:4, it says, "Be angry and do not sin. "Ponder in your own hearts, on your beds and be silent." [Aaron] And that's a good point is, when you're frustrated, make sure that, again, you're coming with the right heart. So, you've dealt with your frustrations with the Lord first. Doesn't mean you don't say something about it, and you don't address it. [Jennifer] It's that being slow to speak. [Aaron] And then also, maybe wait. Wait for when you've cooled down. That's always a good posture to take. Right, so the last question we got for you guys is, what are important questions you need to ask your spouse every week? Aah. [Jennifer] Okay, so we don't ask each other the same questions every week, but, we do have a standard of questions that we lean on when we want to know each other more, Aaron. And it's stuff like hey, how's your heart? Or hey, what are you thinking about? Or hey, what's God been teaching you? What are you gonna be working on today? Or what do you need help? [Aaron] Or what are you reading in the Bible? These are interesting questions that help, if the other person maybe hasn't been, they say oh, well nothing. I'm gonna get into the Word, right? So they're encouraging. And if they are, you can start a conversation with them about what they're learning for the purpose of growth. And we have some friends, really good friends, Jeremy and Audrey Roloff, they actually have a resource called the Marriage Journal. And it's an awesome resource. They actually have, it's a weekly check up for your marriage. [Jennifer] There're actually specific questions that you ask every week. [Aaron] And they draw you closer to your spouse, they help you get to know each other. It also helps you stay on track with each other. So, if you're asking this question, if you're out there thinking yeah, what should we be asking ourselves? It's called the Marriage Journal by Jeremy and Audrey Roloff. You should go check that out, it's an awesome resource, we totally support them, we totally love them. And it can totally help you in growing in your marriage. So, we love you all, and we thank you for joining us on this last episode of the season. If you haven't checked out the other episodes from this season, please go do that while we're on this little break. And also, check out last episode because we have a giveaway going right now. And it goes only until April 10th, so go check out our last episode and find out how that giveaway is gonna work. But, as usual, we pray before we sign out. [Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for the gift of marriage. We pray we would be husbands and wives who are willing to communicate with each other in a respectful way. We pray we would have the courage to say the hard things in love. We pray we would be good listeners, and truly hear what our spouse is sharing with us. We pray to share our heart with one another, always. We pray that your Holy Spirit would infuse our speech and open our ears, so that we can hear. Help our minds to understand each other, and to extend grace to each other. We pray the posture of our hearts would be humble. We pray we would strive to make marriage a safe place to communicate, and not a scary one. Help us to work through our marriage issues, and the things that we're experiencing to gain knowledge of each other and of You. Help us to grow in how we walk, and may it be in a worthy manner as we navigate life together. In Jesus Name. [Aaron] Amen. We love you all. And we'll see you next season. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. 

Robert Farrington is a Millennial Money Expert and Founder of TheCollegeInvestor.com. He is on a mission to help millennials get out of student loan debt and start building wealth for their future. He also helps parents make smart choices about college financing options and navigating the complex world of paying for school. Through his work at TheCollegeInvestor.com, Robert Farrington has emerged as one of the nation's leading student loan debt experts.​ Show Transcription: Episode 26 Reducing Student Loan Debt with Robert Farrington.mp3   [00:00:00] And so that's really what we've been talking about for the last decade, is how you can start building wealth and investing early while conquering your seed loans and getting out of debt at the same time.   [00:00:09] Welcome to the Real Estate Marathon podcast, your guide in the Race to Financial Freedom. The Real Estate Investing in Sound Financial Practices. This podcast is for anyone interested in learning more about real estate, investing, personal finances and a new take on traditional retirement. Now here are your host, Larry B0 and Mike Moe.   [00:00:34] What's going on, everybody? Welcome to the Real Estate Marathon podcast, your guide on the race to financial freedom through real estate investing in sound financial practices.   [00:00:43] My name is Mike Moe, one of the hosts the show joined today with my partner in crime, the credit score king. Mr Fiero, What's up, man?   [00:00:51] You know, Mike, I'm never going to get tired. You call me the credit score king. That's just phenomenal. I'm actually going to have that put out my business cards. I think.   [00:00:59] Heck, yeah. You should win. I'm going to. But now doing well tonight. Doing well tonight.   [00:01:03] Very excited about the interview that we had earlier in the week that we're getting rated a show, everybody.   [00:01:09] Yes. And I am pumped about this one as well as we were discussing before we hit that record button. This is a subject that is near and dear to my heart and a lot of people can relate to. And it's student loans and student debt and kind of having to dig your way out of that that that hole that a lot of people find themselves and notice.   [00:01:30] And will the student loan the amount of school loans in the country today is turned into epidemic proportions. I mean, you've got got kids coming out of college this year in more debt than I think they've ever seen in previous years. So that's just one of those things that that this guest came on. The podcast is going to try and help you figure out and get a handle on.   [00:01:53] Yeah. For sure, man.   [00:01:54] And honestly, it's a it's a crime that we you know, the kids nowadays, they're 18, 19 years old, signing for six figures of debt. They don't even know what that means.   [00:02:02] So it's you know, we got to do as much as we can to give them as many tools as possible to get themselves out of this. Essentially 17 loans of six figures plus with with no collateral to it other than the ability to make money in the future. Right. So, yeah, I mean, it's it's it's crazy out there. So hopefully this will help people maybe assess their financial situation a little bit as it comes in student loans and maybe get out of it a little bit quicker.   [00:02:27] Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I've got, though, the warm up cued up here. And you know what? The warm up we're doing today is student loan consolidation. And Mike, what student loan consolidation is it? It's the process through which you take out a new loan, which is then used to pay off all your other existing student loans instead of having multiple loans and multiple loan payments. You have only one. You can consolidate all federal student loans and most private student loans into one more.   [00:02:56] Yeah. Yep. So like Robert said on the show, like when you have six figures and student loan debt, you don't have just one loan.   [00:03:02] You typically have eight, nine, 10 or 11 different, you know, different loan providers who have give you this money over the course of that year. Your education. Right. So would that amounts to is a lot of times that's 7, 8, 9, 10 different payments for, you know, a certain amount per month at different interest rates. So that consolidation allows you to scrap all of that and get it into one payment with one interest rate. So one, it's easier to handle it, too. Typically, loans lowers your your monthly payment as well. So definitely something to look into, especially if you get so many when somebody like you.   [00:03:35] And if you're doing a four year degree, you generally have multiple loans. So you want to shoot it all under one umbrella.   [00:03:41] Well, and so like you said, you want to reduce your student loan payment and you want to consolidate it all into just one payment. That's one of the steps. And Robert talks about many other steps that you can use to get a handle on on your student loan debt.   [00:03:55] Yes, sir. All right. Anything else?   [00:03:58] No. Let's jump into the Robert Ferrington interview and and we'll see you guys on the other side.   [00:04:05] All right. Robert Ferrington, welcome to the Real Estate Marathon podcast, man. How you doing? I'm great. Thanks for having me, guys.   [00:04:12] Oh, thank you for coming on and sharing your knowledge with everybody. That's. This is great show. Thank you.   [00:04:17] I mean, I definitely got to tell you, I'm super pumped about this one. This is a really important topic near and dear to my heart, so I can't wait to get into it. You might start by telling the audience a little bit about yourselves.   [00:04:29] Yeah. So I am the founder of the college investor and we talk all about getting out of student loan debt, starting to invest in building wealth.   [00:04:37] And I've been helping people get a student loan debt and navigate the complex world of student loans for over a decade now. And you know, as much as you hear about it in the media and everything else, like, I mean, it's so complex and there's no one size fits all for anybody. And, you know, the more you go down the rabbit hole, the harder it gets to figure out which way's out. It's kind of crazy. So, yeah, that's kind of my story and help people online for a while now.   [00:05:02] Sounds nice. What prompted you to to start the college investor? Was that they were you in a lot of student debt? Did you see the way it was going? Yes.   [00:05:13] So I started in college because I wanted to talk to people about investing. Right. Like, that's a lot funner, the talking about getting out of debt.   [00:05:20] So I want to talk about how to make money and investing in the stock market and even a little bit investing in real estate. But yes, I did have student loan debt. I graduate with over forty two thousand dollars in student loan debt. And my sight just kind of started with like nobody reading it until I wrote about my struggle with my loans and my loan servicer. And that was like one of my first articles that kind of went viral. And I talked about how my loan servicer was applying my payments incorrectly. And I had to go battle with customer service and everything, you know, super annoying. I wrote this whole thing and oh, my gosh, all these people were like, me, too. And I'm struggling with this, too. And, you know, I heard the best piece of advice was like, dude, we love all the stuff you're talking about with investing, but we're not there yet. We have all this loan debt. We're trying to figure this out. Like, how can we do both? And so that's really what we've been talking about for the last decade, is how you can start building wealth and investing early while conquer you see loans getting out of debt at the same time.   [00:06:18] Yeah, those student loan companies don't have a tendency to listen to the little guy, do they? It's like David and Goliath situation. So totally.   [00:06:25] I mean, it's just it's so complex, convoluted.   [00:06:27] You're talking to a call center, right, with just some, you know, $12 an hour person that really doesn't care about you or your financial needs. You know, like if you don't do it yourself, like nobody's gonna care about you except for yourself, right?   [00:06:40] Absolutely. Nice. So I got to imagine there's there's probably a couple different ways to look at this. You know, you got the college grad who is in a ton of debt.   [00:06:49] You got the person just going into college who we might build, educate a little bit on how to, you know, leave without a ton of debt. But maybe if we can start with, you know, people who have maybe graduated recently and have a ton of student loan debt, they're looking at maybe this six figure plus pile of this problem that that they tackle.   [00:07:08] Where do they start? So the number one thing I recommend for anyone is get organized. So I can't tell you the I would tell you actually ninety nine percent of everybody I speak to that is struggling with their student loan debt also can't tell you how much to loan debt they have.   [00:07:22] They can't tell you how many loans they have. They can't tell you what your interest rate is. They can't tell you what individual payments are on each loan. Because when you're talking to six figures to loan debt, you don't have one loan. Right. You have probably six to 10 different loans with different interest rates, maybe even different types of loans. And so it really starts with just getting organized, like whatever that style is for you. Like go on to your loan servicers Web site, find your credit report, see what debt you owe. Put it on a list. Put it in some software. Right. There's a lot of free software options out there. Print a notebook like I don't know what your style is for, you know, getting organized, but you've got to get organized. You got a list out your loans. You've got to make sure that your loan servicers have your correct address on file. You're not missing notices in payments. Right. Is none of us live in the same place? We went to freshman year of college.   [00:08:11] Right. Like we probably lived somewhere freshman year and took out loans. We lived somewhere sophomore year. Junior senior. Heck, we might have used our parents address for some of that stuff. Right. And so, like, if your loan servicer doesn't even have your info, you could totally be in default and not even know I'd been missing these letters. And then like getting yourself into a world of financial hurts. And so that's where it starts. Like we can even have a conversation about what's the best course of action is if you don't know what you got listed out and then talk about the rest of your budget to like what income is coming in. What are your job prospects like? What's all that look like? Then we can formulate a plan.   [00:08:48] I see. That's so true. And I think a lot of people just take the mentality of, well, I owe them money. They'll find me. Right. But it's all they have to do is send to whatever assets they have on file. And if that's wrong. Well, you still go to collections either way and then you've going to deal with a credit score, which Larry loved so much, you know, and if it goes in the tank.   [00:09:04] It's a fine line between 800 and 300.   [00:09:07] Even that like so it's we're recording this a tax time, right. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. You know, the I know the collateral of a student loan is your income.   [00:09:17] Right. So like you get a how do you buy it? You buy a home, right. The collateral of the mortgage is the home. You don't pay your mortgage. Well, they just, you know, foreclose on your house. Right. Well, the collateral of your student loan is your ability to earn money. And if you don't pay your student loan, they take your earnings. And the government has this crazy administrative power where if you get a government payment, they don't even have to go to court or do anything. They could just take all your government payments. So it's tax season. And if you're in default on your loans, they will just take your tax return.   [00:09:48] That's it. There's no like ands or buts about it. And so I see this whole world of her people are saying like, oh, I never heard. I never heard what's like one you knew you had two loans to. Is your address updated on file? It's like all they had to do was send a letter to whatever address they had on your student loans. This was probably months ago or even years ago. And now they're just taking your tax refund. They're going to take your garnish, your wages. They're going to take your Social Security. If you kick the can down that far right leg, you've got to realize that that is the problem. And that's the collateral. And then as you make these decisions, you can figure out which way to navigate it.   [00:10:21] And you have ignorance is not bliss when it comes to your student loans.   [00:10:25] No, no, no. One of the questions that we have is when a student can't pay their qoute, loan payments, what what did they do in that instance? I mean, obviously, they don't want to ignore it. What do they do, this process? Yeah.   [00:10:38] And so that's the scary part, right? Like, what if I can't pay my debt? Or even more so when you get that first bill after you graduate.   [00:10:45] What happens is, is you default into what is known as the 10 year standard repayment plan. And that payment plan is actually the highest monthly payment that you will ever face with your student loans. If you can pay it, great. But if you can't pay it, don't ignore it. That's actually like the highest monthly payment. There's a lot of other options out there. But if you don't ask, if you don't call, you don't do your research. You know, that's where you get in trouble. So for most people that can't afford their loans. Income driven repayment plans are the key. These are amazing plans that cap your monthly payment at either 10 percent or 15 percent of your monthly discretionary income. And what that means is if you really have zero income, once you say that you'd never got a job like the job market was struggling for what you want to do if you have zero income while you're still loan, payment is also zero. And if you're low income and maybe you have some children, your income, your monthly payment could also be zero. Or it could be very low. We're talking, you know, ten eighty dollars like something that's cap to your income. So if you don't make a lot of money, these repayment plans can help you stay current on your loan debt and they can also keep you out of default. And they all come with loan forgiveness down the road. It's not sexy. Takes 20 years. But, you know, if you really struggle to earn a solid income over 20 years, any remaining balance on your loan is forgiven.   [00:12:05] And that's I mean, that was going to be my follow up question is the loan forgiveness programs. How exactly do you qualify for that? Next, you have to make a payment. For how long?   [00:12:15] Well, it depends. So that's the other thing is right now, with no changes to the laws, like, let's just say none of these pullet politicians that are out there talking all these changes, if nothing changes, 50 percent of all borrowers today qualify for something, maybe not total loan forgiveness, but something.   [00:12:33] And there's so many repayment plans, forgiveness programs out there. I've found over 80 different loan forgiveness programs, depending on where you do what kind of loans you have, where you live. So the most popular one is the one that you hear about in the news all the time. Public service, loan forgiveness. And it's popular because there's a lot of public servants out there, teachers, government officials, you know, state, local, federal members of the military. You know, that's very broad. And so a lot of people qualify for it. The other thing is, is it takes 10 years or 120 payments and you get tax free loan forgiveness at the end. And so that's one the most popular ones. But there's so many other loan forgiveness programs out there that you just you a few minutes of research, you might qualify for something and not even realize it.   [00:13:21] Very nice. If there's somebody who, you know, is looking at this massive student loan debt and doesn't want to drag it out for 20 years to maybe qualify for something like that, what are the. Are there strategies that work specifically to maybe accelerate getting that debt paid off or what are some quick wins for them?   [00:13:39] Yeah, I mean, it all comes down to your income, right? If you can afford to pay more, it's just a math game, right? Do you want to eliminate your debt, pay less interest and get it done with?   [00:13:47] Or can you afford to not to do that? If you can. I mean, you can definitely look at refinancing. You do loans, getting a lower interest rate and paying it off. But refinancing is what everyone here is. Because. Right, it's driven by the banks and banks advertise and they have a lot of money to throw at advertize. Right. And so everyone's share refinance to save interest on my loans. Well, the sweet spot for refinancing and saving on interest on your loans is are you going to pay off your student loan debt in three to five years? If the answer to that question is yes. Well, refinance. Go for it. If the answer to that is no, don't refinance. Look at other programs. But maybe in a year from now, your situation changes. Maybe you got to raise it work. Maybe you got a new job. Nothing that we're talking about also has to be permanent. Right. I think that mostly we'll need to look at their do loans reassessed annually and see if they're on the right path because life changes, your income changes, everything can change. Right.   [00:14:41] And you've got to just continue to monitor it and see if you're on the best path for yourself today when you get ready to go to college. Win. Win is the best time to start planning this out.   [00:14:52] Is this something you should do before you even decide to go to college? Is this something that you can do during college? I mean, what's your opinion on the best, best time to start this?   [00:15:02] Oh, I mean, like when they're 8. Like when your children are in there, like, you know, single digits, you need to have these conversations. And it actually isn't even the college conversation, really. It's the money conversation.   [00:15:12] Like, I can't tell you how many parents just don't share any type of money with their kids. Like not giving them money, but like giving them transparency into their finances. And then, you know, this 16 year old thinks that they're going to have their college paid for and then mom and dad's like, no, there's no money. And it turns into really nasty things. So let's start with your kids early. Share with them money. Tell them what your budget looks like. Tell them what the plans are to save for college and then just continue to evolve these conversations all throughout their life until they're in high school. And then you need to sit down, have the real conversation about how you can pay for college. What do you want to do? Where you want to go? Well, this is how much it costs. This is how much mom and dad have. This is how much we put aside for you. You know, this is what we could do to support you while you're in school. But like, you know, here's what it looks like. And we have to have these conversations with children early because college is more than money. Right? It's hopes, dreams, aspirations, but it also involves money and taxes and the government and all kinds of other nasty stuff that we don't talk about as much. So if you don't combine these two early, you just set up really bad conversations when it comes to paying for college. And that's where also people don't realize what college all about. College isn't about necessarily education. It is. But you can get educated anywhere you get as you listen to a podcast. You can get educated going to Harvard. Got you. And they put all their lectures online. So if you want really world class education, you can find that you go to college because you're looking for an hour away on your investment. And that's what we need to talk about. Just like you would in real estate or in the stock market, you want a return on your investment. So if you're going to invest $40000 in college while you're doing so, because you expect to earn more after college and you're expecting to get skills, networking, career, other things besides just the classes because like English one, a one you can get anywhere, you could read some books and you've literally learned what your English class going to teach you in college.   [00:17:17] So like you're going for more than just that education. You've got to keep that in mind. It's an investment and it's an expensive investment. And statistically, college graduates do earn more than high school graduates over time. But, you know, there's definitely people that don't need to go to college and can earn very good sums of money, you know, with their skills. Maybe it's a trade, maybe it's joining. The military is college isn't for anyone. And it's really expensive to find yourself if you don't know what to do.   [00:17:46] There is so much going back in that last couple minutes.   [00:17:51] I think you're underspent percent spot on that. I think that is hopefully it's a generational thing and we're getting away with it. But, you know, as you know, when I was growing up, it's pretty common here in young people my age, just, you know, their parents intolerable money to teach me about money. But then when they got to 17, 18 years old, you had to go to college. Why? Because that's what you do and that's what you have to do. But. Oh, yeah. We can't pay for it. So go get student loans. And, you know, you can't you can't yet get a legal drink, but you can sign for a hundred thousand dollars in student loans without knowing what you're going to get for it. And I think you the way that you look at college from an ROIC standpoint is the way people need to look at college, because you're a hundred percent. Right. You can get educated anywhere. And nowadays there's so much stuff out there that if you don't need a college degree for what you're your goals are, it's might not be worth the money, you know?   [00:18:40] Right. I mean, there's still just like that political aspect to it. Like, let's say you want to be a teacher, right? Like, you have to get that credential or they don't let you teach, you know?   [00:18:49] You know, there's real smart pass to get there. You go to community college, knock out your undergrad, transfer to a state school, live at home, and you could probably be dollar college for like 10 grand and have that credential and go teach like you don't need to borrow one hundred thousand dollars. A teacher. And it's just hard, though, because people think down on community college. But you know what? It's free and half the states. You know, college like no one cares where you. Yeah. You know, whatever calculus or whatever the classes you take, like that's all the same. If you're just going for your teaching credential, get your teaching credential. Same thing applies to anything. But that's where I think I'd like the tech world. They have all these vocational programing schools now that are popping up because you know what? Like Microsoft doesn't care. They just might know be in code. And if you can learn how to code wherever, do it and go get working. And you know, it just we have a whole world of possibilities now and it's really expensive to overlook why you're going to school.   [00:19:47] Yeah. And it'll be interesting to see what people and companies do in the next 10 years as lowering some of their college degree requirements from these jobs that don't necessarily need it, you know, making it through it.   [00:19:59] My wife worked at a car rentals place right out of college and it required a four year degree to rent cars.   [00:20:05] That's ridiculous. There's a lot of that. It's so silly that, like, you need a college degree to become like a manager and assistant manager.   [00:20:13] And it's like really like, you know, there's people that have really great skill sets that don't need to do that. But, you know, you've put this arbitrary. I call up politics and workplace politics. And it's the same like I see people going back to school for like a master's degree or a graduate degree, because graduate programs in general are the worst are. Why? That's where, you know, when you see the million dollars in student loan debt, there's over 100 people in this country with a million dollars in loan debt and they're all graduate degree programs. Right. Because the problem is, his graduate degree programs don't have a cap. So undergraduate borrowing, there's a federal cap on how much you can borrow, not for graduate degrees. So like they can borrow one hundred fifty two thousand dollars a year and then, you know, interest and all that stuff builds and you're a million bucks. And that's where there's no growth, especially with like MBA programs, things like that. It might be the workplace politics game that you need to play. But in that case, make your employer pay for it. Like I'm not necessarily dismissing the value of the degree, but at the cost in the R-N.Y might not be there. But if you're not, the payer will go for it. Right. But if your company is going to demand that that you have an MBA to get promoted into some kind of management position, well, they should put up the money and pay for it.   [00:21:24] Yeah. Nice tazers. Sorry.   [00:21:26] Let's just just say one of the things that I like that you said you were mentioning the tech program, which I kind of wanted to dove into just a little bit because I am fans of Mike Rowe who does Mike Rowe works and he's a lover of the tech world. And, you know, I actually had told my son, who just graduated from college with a two year degree in and building building trades and went right into making a job into a job, making more money than I make. So and I've got a four year college degree in business administration and my own real estate portfolio. So, you know, I definitely didn't want to discount that, you know, kind of touch on that a little bit more than the tech world was a great, great return of investment. Like you said.   [00:22:05] So, I mean, even the trades are a great return on investment. And, you know, it's very cyclical. And I think it's also important to take a long term view on this. Right.   [00:22:14] So when the economy does really well and this is in history, if you look back over the last hundred fifty years, the better the job market is, the less the value of colleges. But then it reverses, the worse the job market is, the higher the value colleges. Right. And so, like, you know, micro is amazing. I think going to the trades is great. You know, I know these construction guys that, you know, are making tons of money these days, but they know everything flips and then they don't. Right. It's very cyclical. But the same thing can happen. The tech world, you know, things can flip. Things can change. So you just got to be mindful of that. But if you build some skill sets and you set yourself apart and you network, you can usually weather those storms regardless of what you get into.   [00:22:54] So since we're on the subject of our why, what are some things that people need to consider when they're maybe they're trying to shift their mindset of looking at college just because you've got to go to get a piece of paper or looking at it from an hour away. How do they start that?   [00:23:05] Well, the mindset is so psychological because it's your own aspirations and dreams of what you want to do. It is so much family pressure, so much friend pressure.   [00:23:17] And you're talking to someone that's 17, 18 years old and you're like, you need to overcome what everyone's telling you to do this.   [00:23:24] And that's the hard part is that's where if you start these conversations earlier becomes easier. There's no right or wrong here. But like, you know, we got to judge kids less. We got to let them explore and try things. But we've got to teach them fiscal responsibility as well and help them understand that, like you borrow eighty thousand. That is, you know, fifteen hundred dollars a month every month afterwards. So if you're not making X, you got to live somewhere and rent somewhere and you to feed yourself and have a car and all these other things. Right. Like so we've got to help them understand that. And really do that the better. But it's so much just interpersonal family dynamics that there's just no right or wrong way. We got to just continue to talk to parents, really, and kids and say it's OK, like there's alternatives. I think 30 percent of people to 40 percent should go to college. I think 30 percent of people should go into a trade type scale or the military. And I think a 30 percent of people should become kind of entreprenuers or something else along those lines and just not go that route. I mean, I think everyone's so different and we can't just box everybody in and what's right or wrong or, you know, dad did this. So you should do this. Yadayada, right?   [00:24:34] Yeah.   [00:24:34] We've all heard the story about Bill Gates dropping out of Harvard, and that might have Bill Gates, you know, like so many of these people have. And it's you know, that's very rare exception. But like, there's also plenty of people that didn't go to college and started a local, you know, trade job or, you know, run a small business that provides for them and their families and does really well. Like, you don't need to have a billion dollar company to support yourself. You can have a nice job. And the cool thing is in this online world is that you can do so much of it online in the comfort of your own home. Being a freelancer, something like that as well.   [00:25:15] Now, taking a quote directly off of your Web site says The number one dilemma holding black millennials from investing and building real wealth. Wealth is student debt. To loan debt. Do you feel that that's that's changing now that people are being made more aware of it? Do you think it's getting worse in the economy the way it is now? Do you think we're making progress towards not having crushing student debt?   [00:25:42] Not at all. And that's the sad part, is, you know, it's leveled off a little bit over the last couple of years. But I mean, we're still seeing, you know, 30 plus thousand dollars, an average student loan debt when they graduate.   [00:25:53] And, you know, wait. The problem is, too, is it's compounded with stagnant wage growth. Right. So like you do, loan debt is increased, but wage growth has stayed stagnant. And so it's just eating up more and more of people's monthly budgets because the end of the day, that's what really matters. It's not about the no amount of loan debt you have if your income increased proportionally to the debt. Who cares? You could still have a portion to buy a house and you could still have a portion that you could have be comfortable having children with and things like that. But that's the dilemma here, is it just eats away at monthly income, which eats away at GDP, which eats away at potential dollars being deployed to any other aspect of life. And it takes years to build the top line so that you could service that debt comfortably so that you feel comfortable buying a house or having children. It targets kids are expensive and people literally the studies show that people are waiting longer to buy a house. They're waiting longer to have kids because they need that top line earnings to grow to a point where they feel comfortable servicing their debt. And that's the problem, is it? It's a delaying factor. It's a it's a drag like student loan debt, not a bubble like the housing market. You know, these bubbles, pop. Right. So people can't afford their houses. The bank forecloses, bank sells that house at a discount, gets it off their books. The whole thing kind of resolves itself in a year per property. And so like when you have a lot of up, takes a couple of years, but it pops, it resolves itself. Problem is, it's like we talked about earlier, student loan debt. You don't pay your loans. It's just a garnishment takes fifteen percent of your paycheck. It just drags and drags and drags. It eats away at income until we hit that twenty twenty five year point. So there's no popping of this new loan bubble. There's just this constant dragging down of people's expendable income. And that's the real problem with this. And that's why it's not getting better, because people clearly can't afford it. We're at the highest default rates we've seen in a decade. And it's not popping because it just drags on income just eats away more of the income. And when people start getting ahead a little bit. Well, that garnishment wraps up at 15 percent and it takes a little more. And that's the hard part.   [00:28:05] I feel like, you know, encouraging people to make more if you're you know, regardless of what you're making, you're taking 15 percent off the top of it for these garnishments.   [00:28:12] Well, you can get out of it. You can get a default. But, you know, it's this benefit cliff thing, too.   [00:28:17] Like, I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of benefit class where, you know, you earn a little bit more, but you lose so much for this gap period. And we see a lot of the lower income jobs where, you know, someone might make $15 an hour and they get a raise to eighteen dollars an hour, but their net is less because they lost benefits. They've lost maybe free childcare. It's the same thing with loan debt because the best ways to get a garnish are you sue loan garnishments is to rehabilitate your school loans. But that requires nine monthly payments first. So you have this nine month period of time where people are still subject to their garnishment, but they have to make a payment too. And so it's like you've got to really have a significant jump in income before they're able to like get out of the. Vicious cycle. It's like all we're doing is punishing these people that are down. And it's not easy. And so, yeah, making a little bit more isn't necessarily helpful. You have to have a sizeable job. And that's the hard part.   [00:29:15] And I did a lot of research so I could sound knowledgeable when you came on the podcast. So I was doing some research last few days and nights. I'm not sure a lot of people understand that when things go south, if they get out of college and things in your personal life go south, you you've always got the option to declare bankruptcy. That sort of thing. We've had you know, we've had podcast episodes on that. Student loan debt is one of those things that the government says is not included in a bankruptcy. So the government's always going to get their money. And I'm sure a lot of people understand that. Is that something is that an accurate statement on my part that does not get wiped away by bankruptcy?   [00:29:52] Well, it's rare. Let's not say that you can't wipe it away in bankruptcy. It's it's very rare to get it wiped away because once again, what's the collateral? The collateral is earnings.   [00:30:01] So when you go to a bankruptcy judge and they have all your debts there and they're looking at your student loans, particularly that you include them and the judge is looking at it and they're like, well, you make no money. Why aren't you on an income driven repayment plan paying zero dollars a month? Why would I eliminate this debt when your monthly payment is zero? There's no reason to. And that's the problem that people don't realize is why you're not getting a discharge in bankruptcy. It's rare because if you actually are disabled, well, there's disability discharge on your loans. They get forgiven. And if you don't have any income, your monthly payment is zero. So the judge looks at you like, why would I forget discharge if it's just you have to have a very rare circumstance of, you know, maybe it's private loans and there's some health care issues and you make just above the poverty line. Things like that, that there are some cases. It just it's so rare to get them forgiven because there's so many options. And as long as you have a potential to earn money in the future, the judge is going to make you pay him or set it as an income driven repayment amount. And you're going to pay if you earn more, it's going to pay more. That's just that's the problem. It's people don't realize that collateral piece.   [00:31:09] And the reason I brought that up is I just wanted to, you know, like you and Mike had said earlier, you just can't ignore the situation. They're not going. It's not going to go away. You got you got a head head on and try and figure it out. And that's where your Web sites come in. That's kind of leading me up to, you know, you've got another company called Loan Buddy that I was doing some research on. Could you talk to us a little bit about the student loan counseling and things that you've got going? How long, buddy?   [00:31:35] Yes, we created loan buddy to be a DIY solution to help you navigate your C loan debt.   [00:31:40] So we've talked in this short period of time of so many options and forgiveness programs and repayment plans. It's confusing. So what loan buddy does for free as you put in all your information? I'll tell you the best repayment plan. And you can take that. You go do it yourself. I'm not here to try to like Damu or anything like that, but we do have some paid upgrades. If you want your paperwork done, if you want some tracking tools, if you want to know if you're qualified for PSL. And the government actually says you're qualified. Like we track all that within loan, buddy. You can upgrade and get those paid services. But the promise of loans is there's a lot of options. There's over one hundred and fifty different options for your loans. Believe it or not. And that's where you get analysis paralysis. There's just so many options. Am I doing the right thing? And I, you know, getting the best payment I can do. I qualify for loan forgiveness. That's what loan buddy seeks to solve. And, you know, there's also a bunch of financial advisors that use it. So we have two parts. The business one part is the direct to consumer, but one part is financial advisors that use it to advise their clients. But these are financial advisors that are extremely knowledgeable, wants to loans as well. They use our software and you can connect with those advisors. If you're looking for someone, help you navigate it. We recommend that for high earners, people with complex situations like doctors and professionals like that that are married, that there's a lot of leverage. You can put your student loans. But it requires so much planning and different things. So you know, something to consider as well.   [00:33:06] Would that be a good place to start? If you think you're thinking about this person who just graduated with a ton of student loan debt and you know, people are you've talked about how people are putting things off till later in life. You know, people aren't getting married or having kids. So they're late 20s now when he used to be average age twenty. You know, that gets a go, right? Somebody who graduated but doesn't want to put that off five years.   [00:33:25] Do you recommend is there. You recommend them to maybe put some things on hold and take this to loan debt or to manage the payments on to income driven so they can start maybe doing other things like buying a house, having a family and things like that, or how you kind of help them decide which way is best for them?   [00:33:40] Yeah, I'm a huge believer in financial balance. Make sure you're servicing the loans for as you know what you need to don't don't go into default, get your monthly payment that you can afford, but start investing.   [00:33:51] Because the other thing is you can the biggest thing when it comes to investing is time. It doesn't matter how much you throw at it, it's time. So you're never going to get twenty two back, you know, like. You can only put one hundred dollars a month in. And even if that's just like a or one K match from your employer, do it, because if you wait until you're 30, like you've lost eight years of time, that you're just never gonna get back at all. That means for your future is you're gonna have to throw so much more money at it to make up for lost time. And so I'm a big believer in taking advantage of free money, especially if you can't afford it. So we set for a one K match, maybe HSA match. A lot of employers are doing that now. If you guys are familiar with the health savings accounts and some of those aren't even matches, like a lot of those are like we'll give you a thousand dollars, you'll get your annual physical. You're even better. You have to throw your own money and you can just get free money from your employer. Right. You can invest that and you just do that every year until you start getting a little more cushion in your budget and then you can reassess. But don't dismiss the free money early on and finding that balance of saving and investing and paying off your debt because it's a matter of time to you.   [00:35:01] That's awesome. You have time in the market is better than time in the market. And that's why I get kind of not going to say concern.   [00:35:07] But, you know, you hear the Dave RAMSI's of the world and they say don't, don't invest a dollar until you have every cent paid off. And, you know, I think there's a lot of concern with that advice, especially. You said you never gonna get twenty two back in those eight years, 20 to 30. Man, from the time pounding standpoint that can do it. Just wonders when you're ready to use it 20, 30 years later down the road.   [00:35:29] One hundred percent. I'm with you. Like, that's one piece of advice. I do disagree with Dave on because, you know, like, let's just say your employer matches you 5 percent like one. You're right.   [00:35:38] I notice the 5 percent out of your budget, but 2, you're giving up a 5 percent bonus on your money. It's like why are you leaving free money on the table that like literally could be going towards your future? And that's crazy because, you know, like it's a pretax deduction. You're barely gonna notice. Like, put the money away. You might not have anything outside of, like, that kind of thing early on to invest and save, like take advantage of what you can and you won't regret it. I've never heard anyone say, man, I regretted putting all that money in my foro okay. When I was younger, like no one says that.   [00:36:14] Nice. Now, you've talked about addressing the debt side of it. You have some some information on your Web site about the income side of it. How would a person go about taking care of both sides, you know, getting an extra $800 a month or creating multiple streams of income? What are your recommendations for these new students coming out of college for building up their income?   [00:36:39] Well, that's what I'm most bullish on, and that's my story, right? So I had forty two thousand dollars in debt. I paid it off in about three and a half years, but I did it by side hustling.   [00:36:47] So I got my job and I was working. But then I was also selling stuff and flipping it on eBay to the tune of about two thousand bucks a month. I started a blog like you can make so much money today on the side and it's like, what are you doing? Nobody's really working 80 to 100 hours a week. That's very rare, especially when you're a new entry level employee. You're maybe working 40 to 50 hours a week. And when you're young, like in your 20s, you probably don't have kids yet, probably don't have a significant other yet like you have this time in your day. So when you get off work, what are you doing with your hours? Are you just sitting and watching Netflix? Are you, you know, playing video games and spending money versus earning it? So I'm just a big fan of going out and earning it, because for most people, one hundred dollars a month can be game changing and you can earn one hundred dollars a month like driving for rideshare for like eight to 10 hours. And so, you know, you do that for an hour a day for two weeks. Boom, you have it. It's not sexy. Your friends are gonna judge you and think you're really weird and your family might be worried about your safety. But you know what? They're also going to judge you in five years when you're debt free, you're achieving your financial goals. And then like like, how did he get there? I don't understand. Like, you know, but because they're all going to forget that you were driving for Uber for two years. Right? Like, it's just funny how people do that. But it's it's so much mental like psychology that you think that people are going to think of you weirdly. But like, you know, they also will judge you when you're successful. So just go earn more money when you have the time and ability to care.   [00:38:21] Some are millennials not investing because of student loan debt, loan debt. Are you seeing them not get in the market and wait until, you know, late 20th to even think about investing? And if so, why do you think that it is? I mean, education.   [00:38:37] Yeah, they were so like they are investing much more these days. But yeah, there was a significant delay because, you know, millennials now like they're in their late 20s and early 30s like they are.   [00:38:48] And I you know, I saw millennials, you know, over 100 green net networth when that wasn't thought of five years ago on average.   [00:38:56] Right. So they definitely delayed investing. But there's a couple of things. They don't also trust financial planners. So they don't invest in.   [00:39:03] Traditional ways that I think a lot of people thought of and the rise of all these apps have actually made it easier for millennials to invest. But, you know, they're not investing smart. I don't think, you know, when you see the Robin Hoods in the stash and the acorns, like it's great that they're putting some money in, but they're also trading and doing things they shouldn't. And maybe that's OK, because they're going to learn some lessons early on in life and maybe change their ways. But they need to invest. They need to invest more. And they're starting to. They really are. But we also have enjoyed a 10 year bull market that may be changing. And, you know, so when they invested less, they got outsized returns that they might not see going forward. And so it's hard like you. They just got to do more of it and continue it. And then it's going to be a really interesting year, I think, and how they handle changes, because, you know, statistically it was inevitable that we were going to see a change in the course of the market. And, you know, it's probably a lot of millennials first experiences in a potential downturn. Right. They grew up in 2007/2008. They don't really have any money to see it. Maybe they saw their parents and stuff and now they're experiencing it themselves for the first time.   [00:40:20] Thanks a lot. Corona virus, everything.   [00:40:23] I mean, it's just a couple statistic. You can blame it on one thing or the other thing. But like when we're at it historically, the second longest bull market in history.   [00:40:32] Yeah, like just stats.   [00:40:34] I don't know what's to blame. It's just it's just going anyways. It's going to. Yeah. You know, like literally you can it's like roulette. Right. You can keep spinning and hitting it, hitting it, hitting it. You're going to miss at some point which is EXELL against you.   [00:40:46] You know, now you've got the long buddy that you DNP basically with the upgraded version of it. Does that offer a one on one coaching program where you actually help them. So the paperwork out form to do that sort of thing. Programs for coaching?   [00:41:01] No. So the system actually takes care of all that for. So it's a DIY handles that I've actually gone away from one on one coaching. But we also connect you with the financial planners because that's the thing with student loan debt is the enemy as loan debt is the scam.   [00:41:15] Companies are so many scam companies that prey on them and robo calls and things. And, you know, we don't want to be I don't want to be a coach for you and know your financial life. That's why we have financial planners that are literally CFD and CFA and they are licensed professionals. That is fiduciary responsibility to you or we have the DIY approach where you can get all your information, put it in and do it yourself. Or you could just use our tool, validate what you're doing and go do it yourself 100 percent without upgrading. And so I've gone away from the coaching, but we definitely have a range of offerings, kind of whatever suits your needs.   [00:41:53] Simon, one more for you actually is people hear a lot about not wanting to get their kids in the same debt that they that they got in in 529 plans are thrown around a lot.   [00:42:04] And you think that's an effective way to save for future college generations? Are there better ways to do it?   [00:42:09] No, I think the 529 plan is one of the best ways to save for college. But this is what I also say is the airplane analogy. Right. You got to put the mask on yourself before you put on your kids.   [00:42:20] And for a lot of parents, they see this with their student loans. Now they're struggling and they they're also taking care of their parents. Right. And they're like, I don't want to be a burden to my kids. Well, the best way you could not burden your kids is to handle your own financial house, like literally save for your own retirements. First, make sure your debts paid off so that when your kids are in their 30s and having kids, you're not having to move back in with them and be a burden. Right. And so that's number one. Number two is between nines are great. But how I think that most people should be leveraging is asking people instead of a gift give to my kids 529 plan. And we saw this in our family and it's worked out really well because I don't know if you guys have kids. I have to. And my gosh, they have a birthday or Christmas. It's like Santa gives them a gift. We give my gift. Their sibling gives them a gift. And then it's like grandma shows up with two other grandma shows up with two. It's like the kid has 40 presents. By the time Christmas is over. But then literally on December 26, they're playing with two of them. The rest of them are literally not even touched. And so one of the things we changed is that we've asked all the extended family, like, stop buying crap. No one needs the crap. Like, if you want to, you don't have to, but like, send the money into their 529 plan. And that's worked really well. They usually get, you know, every grandparents giving them 50 bucks into their 529 plan. But here you are six years later, they each have a few thousand bucks. And that's just continuing to grow. And we get the added win of the kids now getting five just six presents for Christmas instead of 40. And they're still just as happy like no one's any less. So win, win, win right there. Hundred percent. And you know, now instead of them throwing away 50 bucks at Target or Wal-Mart. Buying a toy, they're giving it to somebody that's going to actually be very valuable. And so I'm a huge believer of that fusilli ramified joint and gifting. And of course if you do have any extra money, you can throw it in there. But that's after you've saved for yourself. First, as a parent, take care of yourself, your retirement, your needs. Then look at a 529 save for college directly.   [00:44:24] Awesome.   [00:44:26] Oh, this has been a lot of information for the people and I appreciate you.   [00:44:31] And given this and also the fun, we could talk for hours on this man. I think it's such a such an important subject today. And yeah, there's where we can people go to find out more about this and connect with you more if they need to.   [00:44:45] Yes. And go to the college investor dot com. And we have all this information there, if you want to look at it.   [00:44:50] Lombardi, a trade deal is do loans, you get a loan, but you got us and you can enter your info and get started for free and see if you're doing the right things with your loans. Perfect.   [00:45:00] Excellent. Great information. Thank you for helping our listeners get a hand on their student debt.   [00:45:06] Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having me, guys. That was great. Thank you, guys.   [00:45:10] All right, Larry. That was Robert Var. in man. How good was that man?   [00:45:15] I didn't know a lot of the stuff that he was talking about. It's just, you know, expand your knowledge base a little bit when you start finding out some of the different methods and and some of the the size of the problem in the country today. You know, the epidemic of student loan debt, people coming out of the college with record amounts of student debt, that's just phenomenally bad for everyone. So, yeah. And bad for you.   [00:45:41] Bad for everyone. Like you said, the economy. People are doing things that way later than they used to historically because because of this student loan debt.   [00:45:48] People aren't buying houses. People aren't starting families and having kids. Those are really generation. Really. Those are big things for what spur the economy. You know, down the road when those kids, you know, start entering the workforce. So, yeah, this is like large, large implications to our future economic outlook. So, yeah, definitely a big problem. And we teed up their intro. It's such a crazy problem and, you know, such a large problem to tackle when people are looking at such a large amount of student loans. So it's really, truly awesome that Robert was able to come through and give some advice and give some resources for people who might tap this.   [00:46:23] Yeah. And, you know, I've got my my kids are twenty three and twenty one and they both just graduated from college.   [00:46:29] And you know, they they can really afford to take on all their own bills right now. You know, it's tragic. They're still on her cell phone bills, our car insurance, things like that. And the pay her basically my wife and I are trying to help them as best you can, but you got to try and give them a leg up. Robert is one of those ones that I'm actually going to send this this, I guess, on to them and say, listen up.   [00:46:52] Yep.   [00:46:53] And actually, since we're on the subject, man, on a future episode, we will want to dove a little bit deeper into maybe how to do college a little bit cheaper without leaving. It was with, you know, this massive amount of debt. Well, to find an expert in that space around college hacking and, you know, getting as much financial aid and financial grants and things like that as possible. So we can, you know, maybe instead of worrying over how to pay off the debt, how to I get in debt in the first place through college.   [00:47:19] But again, as I mentioned on the podcast. Well, Mike Rowe works. Mike Rowe is a big proponent of the tech schools. And that's where we sent my son.   [00:47:27] And I'm a huge proponent of the tech schools. You know, you have to go to college for something that's just, you know, educational. You can go with educational tech and then get a job right out of college, making probably more than I did. More than I do, like my son did. And jealous of him.   [00:47:46] You mean I shouldn't spend 60 grand or 80 grand on a philosophy degree? I'm not saying you shouldn't.   [00:47:53] I'm just saying if that's what you choose to do, you may you may have a difficult time finding a job after that. You never know. But don't discount the tech schools. You know, you shouldn't feel bad about going to a tech school at all.   [00:48:07] It's. Yeah. No, I love Robert's view around looking at college from the a wide lens like, yes, I'm going to get this degree. But what is my return on this investment going to be? And I think that is nobody. I never thought about college and in that sense before. And I think that that's kind of that mental shift that needs to happen when we're looking at college. Yes, it can be a useful tool, but what am I going to get out of it in return? Is it going to have the R.O. either return on investment to make it worth the six figures? It might cost you to get that college degree.   [00:48:39] Yeah, absolutely. So start thinking about all your options and and make sure that make sure you pick wisely for the return on your investment. So what's the wants to call the action we've got tonight?   [00:48:51] Like I called action from Robert was just get organized. If you're working through a starting trend to tackle this, this kind of a massive problem in.   [00:49:03] I'm kind of this David and Goliath type situation where you're dealing with such a massive debt. You know, just get organized. We. We had a show back, I don't know, four or five now I think was assessing your financial situation where we talked about how you can organize your debts in a way that makes sense and you can tap them efficiently. Kind of the same thing here. Get all of your student loans. Figure out who you owe money to, to what amount in the interest rates. And then I'll just give you a starting point for the for the game plan. Right. You needed epic Inclan for this debt. And if you don't know where you're at, you're not going to be able to make that game plan. So once you have that, there is a couple resources that Mr. Ferrington mentioned that you can go out to, which was, Larry, if I'm remembering correctly, it was loan buddy dot com.   [00:49:45] Lombardi wasn't one of them. It wasn't at that us, wasn't it?   [00:49:50] I think loan buddy dot us loan body dot org and assessing your financial situation while you're looking that up on Google I believe was episode 3 or 4. So that was more like thirty seven, thirty eight episodes ago because you can believe we're almost up to the fiftieth episode. We need to have something special for our 50th episode.   [00:50:11] You know we said a long buddy that. Yes you are correct sir.   [00:50:19] So, so long buddy. That U.S. is the no go in there and it's a free service that he offers and it helps you get to the point where you can get a handle on your your student loan debt.   [00:50:33] Yeah. All right. Any anything else?   [00:50:36] No, that's everything I've got. Read listen to it. If you need to go back to listen to Episode 3 or 4, assessing your financial situation and, you know, just get a handle on it.   [00:50:46] Awesome. Cool. Thank you guys for tuning into another episode of the Real Estate Marathon podcast. See you next time.   [00:50:51] Thank you everyone for listening to the real estate marathon. I guess if you found value in any of the content from this show, consider supporting us in the following ways. Subscribe to the Real Estate Marathon podcast. Leave a rating and review. Continue the conversation with like minded individuals on social media by heading over to the Real Estate Marathon Gas Facebook Group or follow us on Instagram and Twitter. Add real estate marathon. Buy gas.   Farrington launched TheCollegeInvestor.com from his home in 2009​, while finishing his MBA at the UC San Diego Rady School of Management. Being passionate about investing and personal finance, he wanted to connect with others who shared his passion. Not finding what he was looking for on campus, he created TheCollegeInvestor.com as a resource for young adults about money, covering topics from paying for college and escaping student loan debt, to investing their first dollars after graduation. Since then, Robert Farrington has shared his successful student loan and wealth building expertise with thousands of ​young adults, both online, in person, and as a contributor to major publications such as Forbes and Huffington Post. The San Diego native's drive to help others and "geekiness" have fueled his work as a blogger, journalist, entrepreneur, and family man. Farrington earned a Bachelor's of Arts in Political Science from UC San Diego, and an MBA from the Rady School of Management at UC San Diego. Passionate about his family, FinTech, and watching the latest Marvel movie, Farrington resides in San Diego with his wife and son.

Do you find yourself talking to the same people about bourbon every day and realize you talk to them more than your best friends? In fact, maybe they are your new best friends. We're all in that situation now and that's what today's episode is all about. Bourbon has a magical element that seems to bring people together across every demographic to share a common bond. Perhaps you're getting started and want to figure out, how do you find your bourbon people? We sit down with Jeremy Mandel, he's an admin and founder of a few online communities and one of our Patreon supporters. We go through what it takes to find connections with other like minded individuals that can be done online with people around the world or perhaps in your own backyard with meet-up groups, bourbon societies, and much more. You'll come away at the end of this realizing you probably followed some of these same steps without realizing it. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. At Barrell Craft Spirits, they spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. Joe and Tripp meticulously sample every barrel to make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about money. How did you get into bourbon? What was your introduction to the online bourbon communities? Do you ever have events with your bourbon friends? Do certain groups create more bonds than others? What about your local society? Do you think raffle groups encourage camaraderie? What did you think of the Bob Dylan whiskey? Would you rather go to someone's house to drink bourbon or a bar? Can these bourbon networks get bigger? How can people find a bourbon community? What relationships have gotten you a really good bottle of bourbon?   0:00 Are you interested in pairing your expertise on the distilling process with key business knowledge such as finance, marketing and operations, then you need to check out the distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. It's an online program that can be completed in as little as six courses. The program is taught by both UVL business faculty and corporate fellows. So you are getting real experience from experts at the most renowned distilleries, companies and startups in the distilling industry. We're talking leaders from Brown Forman beam Suntory, jack daniels and more. get enrolled to this online program at U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit. 0:39 My dad's famous line is nothing I said is on Episode One is if you're if you're drinking beer, you're watching the party. If you're drinking bourbon, you are the party 1:01 This is Episode 243 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny, one of your hosts. And how about some pursuit series news. Now, we don't want to use this as a self serving platform. But lots of people want updates on what's happening. So here's the latest. Last week, Ryan and I visit our barrel broker where we get to do what's sort of unusual in the bulk source market, where we get to actually hand select every barrel. Now, we've talked about this before, and you're going to hear about it more, but this time we tasted through 22 barrels and wound up choosing three barrels of 10 year Tennessee bourbon, and then we also selected two barrels of a special ride. We've got a few months until the Ryobi bottled, but this stuff blew our minds at only four years old, because it had such fruity and bubblegum flavors that I think it's gonna take everybody by surprise. We've also purchased four more barrels from Finger Lakes distilling, and we'll be releasing more of those relatively soon. We've got other things in the works as well. And you can get all those updates for upcoming barrels in our Patreon community. 2:00 Lastly, we have finally touched down in Georgia and more specifically in Atlanta, where there are select retailers with limited amounts of Episode 21 and it tastes just like candied pecans. Next week we have two more barrels going up for sale to our Patreon community first before they are released to the general public. And one of these barrels is our first ever 15 year old bourbon release. It might just be one of my favorites because you know, I love that oak. Alright, let's get on with the industry news. Right now Corona virus is on everyone's radar and we all know the travel industry is hurting because events held worldwide are being canceled. But what does that mean for the spirits industry? Chinese consumers are really tailored more to scotch and cognac and buys you where it's going to be hit hardest. biagio has already cut its full year 2020 profit forecast by up to 260 million as bars and restaurants and Greater China remain empty. beams and Tory said that the coronavirus situation is 3:00 Creating challenges in key Asian markets and its 2019 full year results. For no record anticipates the outbreak will have a severe impact on its China and travel retail business and cut its guidance for organic growth in profit from reoccurring operations for fiscal 2022, two to 4% from its previous expectations of five to 7%. In response to the industry demand for greater clarity during global threats, I Ws our drinks market analysis, which is the leading authority on data and intelligence on the global beverage alcohol market has revealed plans to launch the AWS our Corona virus risk assessment model, also known as cram. The tool will quantify and forecast the impact of key global events, giving industry leaders data driven insights and situational forecasts to navigate the situation and manage risks. To commemorate the celebration of its hundred and 50th anniversary pulled forcers opening the first ever whiskey row retreat. It's going to be a huge 4:00 immersive bourbon apartment experience. one lucky winner and a guests will be invited to stay at whiskey row retreat during National bourbon day on June 14, and the entire guest experience at the whiskey row retreat will center around unprecedented access to the production of the bourbon, the brand and the people behind old forester. The contest winner and a guest will be invited to partake in special activities at the old forcer distilling company, including experiencing the process of creating a barrel. Joining Jackie's I can in a single barrel selection and custom cocktail classes, such as learning how to make the brain signature perfect old fashioned to enter the whiskey row retreat contest fans 21 and older can enter by sharing an essay on why they think they should be chosen to win and stay at the whiskey row retreat. And you can do this by visiting old forester.com slash whiskey row retreat. The entry for deadline is April 20 of 2024 roses small batch select is expanding beyond 5:00 2019 initial launch of only being in five states. new markets were small batch select will be available in the coming months include Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Tennessee, Washington and Wisconsin. 5:18 independent state company and the Boswell family who you might remember Brad Boswell the CEO back on episode 185 are giving $1 million to the university Kentucky to further spirits research at the James been Institute for Kentucky spirits. The gift will fund a new maturation facility that will allow the dean Institute to experiment with barrel aging spirits produced in its research distillery, the only one of its kind in the United States. This new warehouse will have a 600 barrel capacity and become an interactive classroom and laboratory where students and scientists can tackle real life industry issues. Do you find yourself talking to the same people every day about bourbon and real life? 6:00 You talked to them more than maybe some of your best friends from school. think we're all in that same situation now. And that's what today's episode is all about. bourbon has a magical element to it that seems to bring people together across every demographic and share a common bond. But perhaps you're getting started and you want to figure out how do you find your bourbon people. We sit down with Jeremy Mendell, he's an admin and founder of a few Facebook communities. And he's also one of our Patreon supporters. We go through what it takes to find connections with other like minded individuals that can be done either online with people around the world, or perhaps it's in your own backyard with meetup groups, urban societies, and much more. You'll come away at the end of this realizing you've probably followed some of these same steps already without even realizing it. And hey, if you want to be a part of another community, join us on Patreon where you're 700 plus members strong and growing every single week. As a final reminder, we are doing our 2020 bourbon pursuit audience survey and we want to know more 7:00 More about you, our listeners. So if you've got 30 seconds to spare and I promise it's only 30 seconds, please visit bourbon pursuit calm slash 2020 survey. Alright, it's time for the show. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char. 7:18 It's Joe from barrel bourbon, myself and our master distiller a triple stimpson spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. We meticulously sample every barrel and make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Next time ask your bartender for barrel bourbon. 7:33 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char money. Oh, we talked about it. It's the root of all evil. And we wish we had more of it and people tell themselves that money can't buy you happiness. Well, you know, money is very, very, very important. And right now you have distillers from Washington to Florida and from Texas to South Dakota. 8:00 All scrambling going to banks, venture capitalists, private investors, Angel share people, friends, family. Hell, you might even just randomly run into someone on the airport, you're hitting them up for money. There are so many people looking for money in this space. And people just don't understand whiskey. I sometimes wonder what the world would look like in the distilling business. If mainstream businesses understood what this world encompassed, that in fact that bourbon is its own audience. bourbon is as big as a sports team or NFL franchise or even a sports league. It's bigger than a lot of TV shows. And if people would actually just kind of wake up and look past the alcohol aspect. We may be hearing about brands that you never even knew about, but because somebody can't get the money 9:00 That they need to start the distillery of their dreams. We're not going to hear about them. 9:06 And there are people like Cedar Ridge and Iowa where the farmer, the winemaker, he leverages his house, everything that he owns his land. I mean, I think he might even leveraged a kid near to just to start the brand Cedar Ridge. He kept believing in it, he kept believing in it, and he kept believing it and then finally he got a big big break. And that is just it. Everybody needs a break in this business. But it all starts with the money. And I'll be damned if there's just not enough of it to go around. 9:43 And that's this week's above the char. Hey, did you know that I have got a new podcast. It's in the music interview section. So help me become the number one music interview podcast on Apple. Go over there and search for my name the Fred MiniK show. 10:00 Then we'll have the number one bourbon podcast and the number one music interview podcast. Go check it out. Until next week, cheers. 10:11 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon. Kinney, Ryan and Fred here talking about a fun cultural topic. You know, this is, this is something that even this podcast wouldn't have started if it wasn't for the type of pot or the topic that we are actually talking about tonight. And it's kind of really, I guess, you could say it's a way that you you branch out a little bit you end up growing, we've all had friends that we get through school and college or work or anything like that, and then you end up finding Oh, I can find brend friends and other things such as hobbies, and, and really, bourbon is one of those things that we talked about all the time. It's what brings people together. And that's kind of what brought this podcast together. I mean, Ryan was 11:00 Really on the idea of Hey, let's start a bourbon podcasts. And I think I know this guy named Kenny. Yeah, we weren't really friends. And so we were we were we were acquaintances at that point Really? Well, we, ironically enough, we both liked etn. Before, before bourbon, so that was the introduction. And then the bourbon kind of brought us together. But yes, bourbon has definitely like, I'm amazed at how many people and how vast my network has become just because of bourbon. And like, it's crazy. Like, it's just nuts. It's it's a cool, very cool thing, and very humbling thing. So yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. Because it's, I've been so blessed to meet so many fortunate people, Fred included. 11:42 Not just doing your yard. We're now friends. 11:46 I feel we were actually friends before that, too. Yep, exactly. So yeah. I feel good because we're rep Fred and I were you know, we're Facebook official friends. So I feel like I made it. Yeah. Good. Good to see everything that's happened in our person. 12:00 So wives and kind of grown since they're now and now we're going to the point where I think is there a day that goes by we all don't text each other. 12:09 I don't think there is actually. Yeah, so it's like it's like texts like part of our dinner as long frightened as text chain started like 6am Kenny challenges in about 10am 12:22 Yeah, you already get started way too early. I don't know how you do it. It's not my choice. Yeah, I got a five year old elbowing me in the back. Daddy Get up, gotta get out. 12:32 So our guests just chimed in there. So let's go ahead and introduce them and kind of really start talking about the meat of this subject. So tonight we're joined by Jeremy Mendell, Jeremy is a member of our Patreon community and came to us with this topic. So Jeremy, welcome to the show. Thank you guys. been listening to you forever. Really happy to be here. Hopefully we're making a dream come true. Tonight. We're on bourbon pursuit. Thanks for putting up with us all these years. For I can't even tell you how long 12:59 Yeah, 13:00 dum dum meet your idols 13:02 Yeah, it's terrible and you were laying 13:05 So Jeremy let's hear your kind of coming to age tale of bourbon. How did how did you really get into it was their first sipar some sort of introduction rolling up 13:17 I had a you know like I would imagine a lot of people do just in high school. I guess I shouldn't say that but I'm pretty sure it's common we've amassed even master distillers say they started yet but we had a little poker room with some friends and there was we would always try and get a bottle of something for our games and 13:38 we found because then it truly was finding we were fine. We found a bottle with a nice little horse on the top and it was around little ball and 13:48 my goodness it was delicious. 13:51 So that was back when you let go into a store and buy some blends. 13:56 But that kind of kicked it off went through college. 14:00 Then, 14:01 probably two, three years after graduating college and went to the University of Arizona 14:08 was talking to a buddy of mine, Tori Levy, who was in my fantasy football league. He beat beat all of us. And when I sent him the money, he sent me a picture of him cracking a Pappy 15 and I had read about that, but I'd never had it or even knew anyone that could get it. So I said, How the heck did you get that thing? 14:33 And then he showed me oh my goodness, there is bourbon on the internet. 14:39 So it was just kind of a spiral from there. 14:43 But you know, from there, you meet a whole bunch of people, which I'm sure we're going to talk about, kind of create a little bourbon community and that's kind of how this whole series of cardboard boxes behind me came to be. Yeah, we're about to say that that kind of justifies your your level of music 15:00 But to this I think I think all of us have a room in the house or a closet of something that just has boxes of herbaceous ages cardboard boxes stacked with inside each other commitment so much as it's a level of cheapness. 15:17 I certainly don't want to pay $4 for a box. So my goodness. Yeah, yeah. Every time I get an Amazon package, I'm like, is this gonna be good for future use to ship something? Well, it gets it gets the point now where you can train your significant other when they understand what the right size boxes and they'll be like, honey, I save this for you. Yeah, my wife said, you know, this is the perfect box to get some of those little stupid bottles that you do with the stupid bottles. The two ounce the two ounce stamp. Gotcha. Yeah, little bit. It's perfect for your little stupid bottles. 15:54 She's supportive of the hobby. That's great. I'm supportive in that this is existing, but she 16:00 Certainly gives me crap all the time. Oh, yeah. Well, is it isn't that her job though? To give you a little shit? I think so. Yeah. Just join the club at that point. So you're fine. 16:11 So I guess let's go ahead and kind of talk about, you know, we can each share some of these stories of how we got introduced to it. And Fred, I don't know if we've ever heard your story, like kind of how were, you know, did did somebody introduce you to bourbon and sort of how did that that process? Yeah, I've man I was drinking bourbon. And 16:36 you know, I didn't actually drink in high school like that. So I was not, you know, the only times that I had drank in high school definitely was wasn't bourbon. He was smoking when I 16:48 was doing hard drugs. He's doing those Double Dragon drinks. 16:52 So when I went to college, I became a big, you know, beam drinker. And you 17:00 My first legal drink was you know, Jim being white and I remember going into the liquor store at that time and there there was like old Fitzgerald and well I mean think I've all I've thought about this a lot I wish I could travel back in time to Stillwater Oklahoma when I was you know just turning 21 which would have been 2000 and and just like clean those shelves out because they were loaded loaded with stuff that now I would you know, have spent four or 500 to 1200 dollars on so it's 17:34 I definitely was not drinking well, but when I when I was drinking 17:38 bourbon it was always Jim Beam white label if I was like, you know, wanting to you know, live high on the hog and getting Maker's Mark, but, but who's who's the person introduced you like you did? Did you actually just go into the store and say like, I think I feel like drinking or you ever been to a fraternity party? I have. Yeah. So who gave me the bottle 18:00 I don't know. 18:02 You know, I will say probably the moment that I fell in love with it, it was it was probably on a fraternity bus on our way to New Orleans from Baton Rouge. We were there for like some kind of convention. Man, it just it just felt it was very tasty. I love the taste of it. And then I found myself like ordering jack or Jim 18:30 instead of beer, or sometimes both. And you know at that at that young age, and then when I was when I was in Iraq, I you know, we couldn't 18:42 you know, was against the our general orders to, to have, 18:47 you know, to have liquor or have anything, so I would have friends, you know, pour out Listerine bottles and fill it with Jim Beam or jack daniels at the time and 19:00 Those are your stupid bottles. Yeah. 19:03 If you were if you were, if you compare like a traditional bottle of Listerine next to like beam or jack, they had the same color. So the MPs couldn't, couldn't crack it open, you know, because they couldn't, you know, they wouldn't necessarily, you know, think to look at that but so that's how I used to do it. And I actually did have there was a unit 19:27 that would go into like northern Iraq in our bill and they would buy cases of liquor and occasionally like the South African contingent that was there, they would break it out. So like bourbon is, in my adult life. bourbon has always played a role in terms of like, where I really fell in love with it. Be honest with you is with my wife, you know, because she's, she's a big bourbon drinker, like you know, and I started, you know, I was just drinking it was I appreciating it prior to her 20:00 Probably not. But I don't think I appreciated many things until my wife. No. I want to make sure she gets that sound bite. What about you, Ryan? We're I think we talked I think this is actually episode one right episode. One of verbiage suit is where we talked about ours, but let's go ahead and rehash yours. Yeah, so thinking back down memory lane. It was in Bardstown As you may or may not know where I'm from, but no. Yeah, definitely for that, man. That's all I know. You get like bourbon. royalty DNA in your blood. Yes, analog connections. Yes. Throughout. But now the first time it was like at a field party and my buddy, his name's Pikey. I know weird name. But uh, he had Evan Williams and coke. 20:50 And I was like, let me try that it was first time I kind of return I was like, all this tastes like sweet nectar. Like this is this is amazing. And then from there, yeah, just 21:00 drank so much Jim Beam white label in college. Oh my god, I can't even drink it now. Like, I can't even look at it, because it brings back so many bad memories, but good memories, but uh, I didn't really like start getting serious till I don't know, after college. I mean, my dad does a lot of work for the bourbon industry. He's a machinist. So he does tool and our pair and I would deliver parts to him or for him to the different distilleries. And I remember you know, just seeing the bottles they would always give them stuff and then I would take it to 21:35 and so I vividly remember taking like some alijah correct 20 ones and Noah Mills 15th and taking them to college parties and like, totally mixing them with coke or ginger ale and like, just had no clue what you know what I had, and so, yeah, just kind of progressed from there and then like, really start appreciating when I went I went to school at Rutgers and New Jersey. Kind of 22:00 Nobody there really knew it. So I kind of preached the gospel of there and kind of started really diving into it. 22:09 And then I met Kenny and then found out there's this whole world of collecting and trading and flipping and collecting, you know, all this stuff and then so you go down that rabbit hole and then I'm like, why don't we? I can't just like have the hobby I gotta start a business about it. You 22:25 can't just leisurely enjoy bourbon with friends. So like, let's start a podcast but yeah, it's, it's and now you know, I I'm no one's a stranger to me. And so like, I've just reached out to anybody that has the same interested in me. I'm not afraid to talk to them and reach out to them. So 22:45 I've met so many people that enjoy bourbon and it's been like, crazy and it's cool because I'm from there. And when I grew up, no one gave a shit about it. And now everybody gives a shit about it. And you know, just seeing the towel. 23:00 flourish and stuff it's pretty cool. Yeah, absolutely we'll touch more on like meeting new people and stuff with instead of bourbon all kind of recap mine I know I've probably said it before. I have the same sort of coming of age tale is Fred over there. So I joined a fraternity and university Kentucky's campus. And I mean, I remember back it was $10 for a 24 pack of Natty light and being an undergrad. Yeah, you always just get you have 10 bucks you give it to one of the juniors or seniors within the fraternity they'd run out you come back and like that's your that's your that's your drinking for the evening. However, I remember hanging out with some of the older upperclassmen in there, they were all sitting around drinking bourbon and coke and back then, our drink of choice was Kentucky tavern. That was that was our go to. And that was kind of like my first introduction that they were actually known as an attorney was actually known as one of the biggest bourbon drinking fraternities on campus. I don't know if that was a good thing or bad thing at the time. 24:00 Time, but because everybody knows what happens if you get a little too bourbon drunk when you're a little young and stupid, but back then it was, it was a it was a way to kind of get an introduction to it. So of course mixing the bourbon and coke. However, at the time, you know, this was also a time when you're drinking, not to sit there and enjoy your drinking to consume and have a good time. And, you know, all that aside, you don't feel as bloated when you have a few bourbon and cokes after you do try to have like eight to 10 eight to 1012 beers so it actually made you feel a little bit better going throughout the night. And now you're interrupting my dad's famous line is and I think I said this on Episode One is if you're if you're drinking beer, you're watching the party. If you're drinking bourbon You are the party. 24:50 So I've always loved that line. But anyways, so let's go on to the next t shirt. Yeah. 24:56 But yeah, I mean that's that's sort of how it started for me And ever since I did that. 25:00 Like I was always one person that was kind of like preaching like always do bourbon and cokes. During college, it just seemed like the easiest way to do it. And not only that is me and my roommate at the time we became social chairs. Social chair is a nice word to say party planner for back in college in the fraternity days. And so our biggest Actually, this is what I truly miss about college is that your biggest worry is where we're going to party on Thursday and Friday night. And that's that's what you had to set up. And so back then UK was a very dry campus and you couldn't have any alcohol with inside the fraternity houses at all. So our goal was to say how do we have house parties and still serve liquor? And so what we did is we get we got those massive Gatorade jugs that you see on the sidelines of football stadiums, and we filled those and it was one handle a Kentucky Tavern two to two liters of diet coke and so 26:00 Everybody drink bourbon and coke at the parties. And that's how we we continued that to flourish for a while, but after after college then is kind of when the appreciation started. I didn't stop drinking bourbon, it was still bourbon and cokes and that's where the progression starts where you start getting rid of the coke, you start getting rid of the ice and you start learning to drink it neat. Old forester became a staple for me. Every once in a while splurging on small batch. You know, Fred, you talked about going back to the store and, and thinking of all those bottles that you could have had my God even I went to the liquor store and when I was there buying for parties, I would buy, probably, gosh 10 cases of six or 1.75 liters of Kentucky Tavern every single week. I don't think I even looked at any other bottles on the shelves. I always looked at figure out where could I get the cheapest premiere like it's overpriced. 26:57 I mean, that was didn't really know any better at the time. 27:00 And be honest even when I even after college, I didn't really know any better either. I was drinking for as a small batch I didn't know limited limited editions even existed until I was working at a company and I there's a guy that worked there and we talked about bourbon all the time. You know, we we'd sit there and talk about bottles we come together and and he's the one introduced me to limited editions. And this was 2012, late, early 2013 timeframe, something like that. And he's like, Hey, I got a few extra things. I'll just sell them to you at cost because I'm just overflowing and and so he sold me a four roses hundred and 25th anniversary, an old rip squat bottle. 27:42 Jefferson's I think it was 21 maybe it was and they were all at retail at the time. I was just like, Oh gosh, like 27:54 80 bucks a bottle like you sure about this. And, and so that's that's kind of what got me on to that. 28:00 Train. And then of course, as as Jeremy said, you find out about online forums and then the whole world of different things start opening up to you if things that you never even knew existed. Yeah, and that's, I think that's really where the rabbit hole starts for most of us. And I think that's kind of where the conversation keeps going for a lot of us here because the online community is really where a lot of the relationships are built. It's also where a lot of relationships go to die and 28:30 let's be honest, there's a lot of butthurt that happens out there. 28:34 So feelings journals for the bourbon world, what are you talking about? Yeah, right. You mentioned one thing and then all of a sudden you get people either hating on your loving Yes. So Jeremy kind of talk about your introduction into like the the bourbon online communities. So my buddy Tory said, hey, yeah, I got this happy 15 years I finally found a good use for Facebook. So I 29:00 got invited to one of those deals. saw that, you know, my first love bourbon was was Blanton's. And I got on there and within five minutes 29:10 I saw somebody was selling a blends. It was dated in like 1988. And I didn't realize that whiskey existed before I drank it. 29:22 So bought that 1988 Blanton's and still have about a quarter of it. 29:28 And really from there, it's sort of just went into a networking you can almost fall into this accidentally and I'm sure that you all his experiences are very similar. 29:38 But you know, you find some people that you've got good relationships with. And now I'm a part of a few groups that I really proud to be a part of, and it's been really cool. And you know, I've got a network, really across the country coast to coast and actually even out of the country, just from those stupid Facebook groups. Can you enlighten me 30:00 Major towns if you needed to sleep on someone's couch, he would do bourbon. I'm going to Florida for business on Friday and I am crashing in the spare bedroom of a bourbon friend that night. No way. It's awesome. We're going to be drinking. Well, have you met him before in person? Yes, a couple times. Actually, he and I have not picked a barrel together. But we got to take part and what to me is my favorite part about a lot of this stuff is the charity component. 30:30 And there was a guy in Florida who 30:34 had a really terrible cancer diagnosis and young guy about 21 years old 22 maybe. And without getting super deep in the details of it. I went down there last year because we raised him about 17 18,000 bucks. And I went down there to 30:54 to go with him to present the money to him and his family. And that was the first time that I cracked 31:00 His little No I didn't crash his place but we met that time. 31:03 Like here's a here's a check by the way Can I stay in your spare bedroom 31:11 This is actually the first time crashing his house but we have met before but that's that's always a lot of fun and of course you know my wife thinks it's ridiculous but you know we're in this city I gotta go see this guy. 31:25 So, but yeah, you get you get this network and I'm sure you guys are all the same in that regard you got kind of people all over the country that you know from random, you know, this guy helped me find this thing I was looking for. And of course, my my wife would say well, why are you looking for that in the first place? You have 200 something 300 31:47 but this sounds all too familiar. 31:50 Never heard that before, right? Yeah, but But yeah, it's you know, you form these communities. We've we've been able to do a lot of good. 31:59 We've been 32:00 able to do a lot of bad too but but it's a lot of fun and it's this whole kind of separate world that you get to be a part of all around this brown water stuff that we all like to bring 32:13 up good. I was gonna ask you know like you talked about like meeting up like with it with individuals but do you ever like, like throw get togethers where your your buddies that you've met online or whatever you guys go to a house or you go to a bar Do you all have like special events or anything like that? So nothing that's terribly scheduled but 32:36 one of the bourbon groups I'm in is called karma. And we did the first one was, it's kind of always centered around barrel pics. So about a summer of 2017 we all got together did a four roses pick and not Creek pick a couple other things that I'm not remembering right now. But you know, there was a good 3035 of us they got together. Remember, we all 33:00 Went to Haymarket one night and that was a blast. And it's all these people who I recognize from one single picture. 33:08 But it was really cool. So we we've done that a couple of buddies. We Ribeiro, the whole bunch of Nashville number one, I think it was from Buffalo Trace and we threw it up in a barrel at a buddy's farm in Tennessee. And we all got together about two months ago, to see if it sucked. 33:31 And fortunately, it didn't suck. 33:35 So we had a weekend at an Airbnb on a on a river or lake or somebody of water. And it's a it's a great time and so and those people end up becoming some of your best friends. It was really, really bizarre but actually ends up happening that way. Every time I go meet my bourbon or internet friends, my wife's like, what are you doing going to meet your internet friends, you're going to be on dateline one of these times. 34:00 The barrel pick that I went to my wife was convinced I was going to be raped and murdered. She was. 34:07 Yeah. 34:09 Oh, gosh, I think we all get that, that every once in a while I think my wife is getting a little bit more tuned to it. Because of course, you know, through our community through Patreon, we get emails all the time, and we try to make it when we can have people saying, you know, we'd love to just come and meet up for a drink and, and sometimes we can make it happen and, and, and she's always kind of like, Alright, well just make sure you text me at the table in case you need. 34:33 Yeah, I remember one time I was going to meet with Kenny and doubled Patreon guys and I got the Uber and to me, it's like, text me as soon as you get there and like make sure as soon as you leave text me and I'm like, Okay, I'm promise I'm gonna make it home. They're not going to kill me. Or a tag team. We can we can take anybody. Yeah. But back to cut it. Go. Go ahead, Jeremy. I'll see you say you guys looked up so you could take them now. Yeah, Kenny's not. 34:59 Well, 35:01 I haven't worked out in a while you gotta he doesn't wire your wire sorry. Yeah, I am. So let's kind of back to the you know the community aspect of this. You know, you had mentioned karma. I mean, are you are you in in with other groups and stuff like that where you kind of find those ends? And I guess are there are there certain types of groups that create more bonds than others? 35:29 What do you get if you mix Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how that's to bar spirits to our spirits traces its roots to a ranch in rural Texas run by the founder, Nathan Kaiser his family for six generations. Nathan grew up on the ranch was stories of relatives bootlegging moonshine, and after moving into Seattle, he wanted to keep the family tradition alive and he opened to bar spirits in 2012. They're very traditional distillery making everything from scratch and each day starts by milling 1000 pounds of grain their entire plant 36:00 product lineup consists of only two whiskeys, their moonshine and the only bourbon made in Seattle. Both bottles are being featured in rack house whiskey clubs next box. rack house whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club, and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer rock house ships out to have the feature distilleries finest bottles, along with some cool merchandise in a box delivered to your door every two months. Go to rack house whiskey club.com to check it out and try some to bar for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 36:37 What's up everyone? i'm john Henderson, your admin over at the bourbon pursuit Discord server. As a coordinator for the Christmas fundraisers held by the bourbon pursuit. I'd like to thank everyone who contributed. I couldn't be more proud of this community. One perk of joining the bourbon pursuit on Patreon is that you get access to real time chat with other members along with Kenny Ryan and Fred through discord from photo sharing and sample swaps to 37:00 events where ultra limited releases like willet bottles are exchange. There's always something going on. Right now over 300 members of the Patreon community have joined and are connecting over our passion for bourbon. If you're not on Patreon, now's a great time to join us and get involved with the community in a whole new way. Come check it out for yourself and be part of the behind the scenes chat photos and video calls. We'd like to have you join us on a live virtual board where we all discuss a pursuit series release just 37:28 are there certain types of groups that create more bonds than others? So community wise, I'm a part of two groups that really are my bourbon community, I would say. One is karma. That was a cost plus shit group which I'm sure we'll talk about what that is. 37:47 But essentially, it's, you know, I because of that I feel comfortable that if there's ever anything I want to try from some what's a good example? I'm up 38:00 Four roses, that four roses my top of the line, particularly the Oh, so recipe, and liquor barn had a Oh yeah, so barrel a month ago or so 38:13 I got two bottles over there. But I'm down in Texas and that's because of the connections I've made my cost call ship group karma. 38:21 That's been a great deal you meet all kinds of great people. 38:27 Then I'm also a part of a barrel picking group called 21 kings. And I've made a bunch of great connections there. I'm going actually I'm going to be up in Kentucky a couple weeks to pick a four roses barrel and willet ride barrel. And that's really it started more as a we want to be able to pick barrels and not share it among 200 people kind of thing. But you know, you make these connections with you. There's, it's really interesting. There's not a lot that I've experienced in the world that Bond's people together like picking a barrel of bourbon. Just 39:00 I don't know what the secret sauce in there I know what the sauces but 39:05 the common denominator. Yeah. 39:09 You pick a barrel of somebody, your pals, 39:14 you know, talk talk the whole thing through it's a painstakingly excellent process if you do it right. And I've been really lucky to get to do it a few times and I'm really excited to get to do it again here in a couple weeks. But it's been a really cool experience, you know, you get to get really, really good bourbon or rye or whatever it is you're picking, and you get to, you know, make connections with people that you wouldn't do, at least for me, certainly I never would have made those connections otherwise. Now I'm totally with you. And I guess that that also kind of thinks about you know, really where does the relationship start and how does it build and it I have the same things with with two other buddies that really 40:00 We we knew each or we didn't really know each other and then we've kind of found each other through bourbon and then their their personal lives. You start knowing about their children you know about their vacations, you know about you know, where they're buying a how their IRAs. Yeah, everything getting 40:19 better. I mean that's that's kind of like how it kind of blips like that where you it's just a really kind of snowballs where you kind of have this common foundation. And then from there, you start talking to them more than you did. The people that you went to school with years ago. And and they become something because it seems like bourbon is like an everyday thing. It's constantly changing and the people that care about it are always in tune with it. Yeah, absolutely. The you know, 40:47 it's really nice. You know, aside from just the personal connections, it's just great to have a network of fellow dorks that we can talk about that stuff with. 40:55 You know, there's I live in San Antonio, which is 41:00 You know, it's got a good bourbon community here, but it's sort of 41:04 from a maturity level. It really only became a big thing down here in the past three to six months. 41:12 So, you know, I always thought the Esquire bar had a really nice bourbon. So I guess choir is fantastic. And you know, they do the San Antonio cocktail conference down here. Yeah, I come every year was in the back of the room last time you did one. You can stay on this couch next time. Yeah, that's right. Do you mind? I mean, St. Anthony's expensive. Yeah, if you don't mind golden retriever sniffing around Yeah, you can always got a couch here. 41:40 But 41:42 there there's a few people here in there but like as compared to say like Houston with Houston's I mean, you guys know you guys had 41:51 the Houston bourbon society on a while back. That's been a big deal for a few years now. 41:57 So like, just as a 42:00 An example and I mean, no disrespect in saying this, but in the San Antonio group, the old Ezra seven year is a big damn deal right now. 42:09 And it's a good, it's an excellent drink. I really like it for what it is. But if you've been into the hobby really deeply for five plus years, then you know, you're you're drinking other stuff too. 42:24 So it's locally it's not as far down the line as say like a Houston or obviously anywhere in Kentucky, 42:33 which made the online community is a really great thing for us. And I guess another question with that is, are you seeing a lot of I mean, so you have your local society, and that's another place where a lot of people can go in and find some of those those bourbon connection those bourbon friends that live they live in your local area. Most of the time, you might find it on, you know, the the local page or the San Antonio page and then you see each other and me 43:00 And then all of a sudden things can happen through there. Yeah, the it's funny I'm hosting. And you know, Ryan, you joked about IRAs but that's 43:10 that's what I do for a living and I can't tell you how many times one of my bourbon friends would send me a text message or an emails like hey, do you mind if I ask you about this thing? So actually do know about a lot about the IRAs of some of my bourbon friends 43:23 have ESP gift but yeah, you end up I just right before we got on here, my buddy Josh Hayes gave me a call I talked to him for about a half hour and bourbon didn't come up. 43:40 So yeah, it's it's really cool to have connections like that. 43:44 You know, another thing that we kind of talked about earlier, too is and we'll kind of keep this train going with the kind of online community theme is we talked about raffles and and how these these kind of groups that are based off raffles, it also kind of creates a little bit of camaraderie. 44:00 Because you've got people that either they all try to play the same number and they fight each other for they get to know each other through there, or there's somebody that consistently win somebody else's raffle all the time. And so you have you have this also built into even though it's an expensive hobby, but it's something Yeah, we like in, in karma, my cost ship group the stupidest thing in the world, but when when mega ball went from 15 numbers to 17 or 19, or whatever the number is not 15 anymore. We were all very upset because that diluted our chances of winning stuff. 44:39 So we had to create our own weekly drawing, which is I got a bingo machine back there some somewhere did our own damn drawing because we didn't want to split a bottle 17 ways I want to split it 15 ways. 44:54 But yeah, you end up particularly in some of those secondary raffle sites you can lose just 45:00 an absurd amount of money if you don't really check yourself. Yeah, hey, Kenny for introducing me to raffles and risky whiskey in particular. Yeah, well, after a while, you figure, you know, that's the reason I'm doing it. I had to delete social media during the week. Thanks a lot. 45:17 But after a while, you end up as we were talking earlier, you kind of put planned but, you know, back to the, the community aspect of this, you know, we look at it as as an opportunity as as well to branch out, you know, my myself gotten to know people through these communities. And, and, you know, Jeremy, as you mentioned, you'll travel you go somewhere, you know, I've got connections now and a lot of states and so you can you can travel somewhere and know that you can confide in somebody and you can hang out and have a good time. You don't have to go and meet up at a bar somewhere to go and, and hang out. And ultimately, I don't know about you all, I'd actually rather go to somebody's house and dig into their collection. 46:00 Try something unique and I would just rather meet up at a bar. Well, it's funny we, my buddy Craig Lyman was here probably six months ago and there's three guys here locally they're a part of the karma group that we're that we're all a part of. And 46:18 we went out to a bar at all meet up and about halfway through my trying that Bob Dylan whiskey. 46:26 We all that stuff. I hate to break off on that, but what did you think of the Bob Dylan whiskey? I wasn't a tremendous fan of Oh, it's gross in it. 46:37 Like it like it all. It was bros about it. So there is a Okay, so it's, it's it's decal, and they got like the bottom of the barrel of the decal barrels. Because it's just it's like metallic. You know, there's like there's like this crazy like weird metallic note in there. Yeah, there was something to it that I had not tasted in bourbon. 47:00 before and I don't mean that in a good way. 47:03 And it inspired us we were 47:07 you Fred, you mentioned the Esquire we were down the road from the Esquire so maybe that was our problem. 47:13 But we all 47:15 that that drink inspired me to tell her because the best bar in San Antonio for whiskey is at each of our individual houses. Can we please just go there? 47:24 So that's what we did a lot better than the Bob Dylan whiskey. Yeah, I'm sorry, I interrupted you, but I had to ask your opinion on it. No, I don't totally remember where I was going with that. But you're absolutely right. That's up stuck by you, Fred. I mean, Fred, if you if you had enough connections now when you go somewhere that you'd rather not go to a bar and you'd rather go to somebody's house and dive into a you know, well, or gold vein or William Lou Weller, some old dusty Kentucky Tavern or Evan Williams or something like that. I've had you know, I've had some weird expense. 48:00 SS 48:03 please do share it out. Yeah, I've had some weird ones. But I'm you know it, I'll say that I still like to see what's going on in the town five years ago, I was like, I don't want to go to a whiskey bar because I have everything and I don't want to spend that kind of money. And I'd rather just kind of go hang out and see something else. 48:26 Now, I'm kind of going back to the, I feel like these, these bars are working hard to, you know, promote my culture, what I love, and you know, I gotta throw them a bone, I gotta, I gotta go in there and pay my respect to what they're doing. So that's kind of how I think of it now is like, I don't think of it as like, you know, look at them and their prices is just what they are if they're price gouging, you know, be very vocal about that, but 49:00 Often to like I end up correcting spelling errors and menus. I mean, for God's sake, why can't people spell will it correctly? It's true. 49:10 But I feel like I have, I have a purpose. And I'm supposed I need to be visiting these great temples that are bastions to whiskey. And you know, if they invite me and I'm going to go on a show, you know, check it out, but indeed do I like going to someone's house and going down in the basement and seeing seeing the collection? I mean, that's like to me that just doesn't get better than that. Now, what's weird is when like, you know, I come in the house. 49:45 And then the guys wife's down there, and I'm like, oh, oh. 49:53 And did you like she's like, who's this guy in the ass guy? 49:57 Oh, man, just ignore 50:00 Weird. So I didn't sleep on their couch. 50:04 Like I'm gonna go till now. 50:07 Yeah, well, I mean, it's, it's, it's fun to look at this and look at the relationships that you do build over time. Because it does seem like a lot of these hopefully will stand the test of time you never really know. Because it I don't know, maybe this is another kind of question is, 50:27 you know, as bourbon becomes more prolific and becomes more scarce and it's even harder to find these things and, and really, I don't know how much bigger these networks that people are creating right now can actually get, 50:42 you know, can they get bigger or you feel like, you know what, I don't have any more room in my life for new friends. We're just going to kind of keep it where it's at. For me and we I don't know if we actually call the episode this but you said the term finding your bourbon people 51:00 For me, selfishly, I found my bourbon people. 51:04 My biggest group of people that I care about is about 150 people and that's about as big as it needs to be and we're all having 51:13 like, 51:15 I don't know when this is going to air but right now there's this whole bsm bourbon secondary market thing going on Facebook, we couldn't care less. And it's been incredibly entertaining for us because I know because I've established my community. There's not really anything that's going to come out that if I really want to try it, I can't try it. from a store pick that comes out to got a buddy with a bottle of Red Hook ride that I'm going to see if I can't finagle announce it Oh yeah, battle. If you can find your your community then these groups of 50 some thousand people really don't matter all that much. So I guess another question is is so you found your people we've already decided three's enough. We're not bringing on a fourth co host 52:00 So we've got our people but how do you what would you say is is a good way for people to start getting introduced and sort of like find their you know, find their because you say they're missing connections they're getting to the gangs of the bourbon community. To me every every good bourbon connection I've come into is because somebody was doing something nice for somebody else. 52:25 You know, whether it's you know, there's last year almost city liquor here had a fantastic Elijah Craig pick, bought a bunch of it and help some friends that otherwise wouldn't have been able to get it. 52:38 Get it and they became good friends and that favor is I've been on the receiving end of that favor, you know, from different places all over the country. 52:50 And great bourbon connections for me rarely come from trying to price gouge somebody on a whatever store pic of 53:00 The month it is. 53:02 But if you, you know, just be cool with people and treat everyone this is you know, I guess cliche but 53:11 treat people the way you'd want to be treated. 53:15 You'll end up knowing some really cool folks and that's what's in that's what's happened to me. And that's the advice that I typically give people on between karma and 21 Kings I really don't need to know anybody else. Be able to know you guys 53:28 can be your friend. 53:31 Give me your card. Jeremy. One of my favorite things is like I get you know, when when I travel I do often like just kind of connect with someone who's a listener or reader just like or, you know, follows me on Instagram. I really do try to make an effort when I'm out to like, go hang out with people. And my favorite thing to do is like learn about their jobs. You know, because I find that we have 54:01 in people's pleat people's beliefs, because what I have found is is that bourbon is not. It doesn't attract as one race or one occupation or one political or religious belief. I mean, it attracts everybody. And to me that is what's so beautiful about this category is that I could be in a room with a staunch democrat and a staunch republican and they absolutely hate each other politically. But they'll just sit there and talk about how beautiful a new riff barrel pick is. And I'll talk about that now. They have three they might get into some, some fighting but once they cross the threshold, but it's kind of like, you know, Henry Clay, you know, the great Kentucky statesman, he said he wants said that bourbon was used to lubricate the wheels of justice. 54:59 It's like this 55:00 Great like, door opener for conversation? Well, I think even if you have the three drinks if you have committed commit each other from a place of respect, I mean, one of my, one of my good friends that I've met Andrew Goodman is a very far left person I am not. 55:17 And he lives in New York City. I was there for a business meeting. We went to one of the bars there. He bought me some vintage 17 rye, or no finish 21 rye. 55:30 And we talked politics for a good hour. And we walked out of there not hating each other and it's magic how that happens nowadays, you practically can't do it. Yeah. What problems you solve? I want to know down can 55:46 we solve the problem of how to get more Oh, yeah, so four roses, but we really solve any, any national issues, although that's become a national issue. 55:56 For sure. But you know, it's it's a conduit for 56:00 A really good conversation to like that, that I never would have had otherwise. And we continue to have it frequently. And then when it gets to be too, 56:08 too much we both saying I, you know, we don't want to fight with each other. Let's agree. 56:13 So I had kind of talked about it earlier, you know, with with my connection, pretty much my my mentor taught me that these are what limited edition releases are and he was able to, like I said, he gave me it at cost. So just to make sure that I'm not dealing with a story like this. I want you all to kind of talk about what are what are those relationships that you formed, that you've gotten, like a really, really good bottle of bourbon out of it just because of fostering relationship like that. I've had a lot. I've had a lot of guests. 56:48 And 56:51 the gentleman, you know, the gentleman passed away unfortunately he was his name is Dale Hamilton. And he 57:00 He was like the last. He was the guy who like got cola approvals for states of Weller. And he was like the last, you know, last guy from United Stiller's, the you know, for, you know, before they close, that's a Weller. And so he has this, you know, he had an incredible collection. And I helped him figure out what some things were, what some bottles meant. And, you know, we just and he came to my legend series at the Kentucky Derby Museum and we just we just became friends. I would visit him at Christmas. You know, he would come and we'd have lunch, he'd play with my kid. And he gave me a 1935 bottle of Weller. 57:46 And that was like a green Green Label blend. And it was fantastic. And the first time I opened it, I cracked it open with Tom Colicchio. From 58:00 Top Chef has just that right after my Top Chef appearance. And I wanted to celebrate with them and so I cracked it open with them. So I had like two, two really cool friends. You know that that that bottle kind of connected me to, you know, coming out of the gate strong here. Yes. Right Ryan, I think you should follow that. Well, I've had some great connections and relationships with people like Bill Thomas was kind enough to invite me to his house and stayed the night crashes. We didn't crash his couch. We had a room but but just his collection like we were at his bar and he's like, Guys, let's just go to my house. It's so much better here. And he had a green, you know, Green Label or not green or green bottle Van Winkle raw one early ditions it's one of the best bottles I've ever had. Drew Cole's been grew up with him from Willits. I mean, he's, he's one of the kindest, generous people he shares a ton of stuff for me, but the one the person I remember the most is probably my 59:00 Brother in law 59:02 I won't name any names but he works at heaven Hill and 59:06 he likes bourbon but he knows how like obsessed I am with him and he always goes out of his way to give me like a Parkers or an old fits release that just came out like he always is just finding ways to give me something and I'll always cherish that so it's all it means a lot to me. That's that's a relationship by blood that's hardly fostered over birth. 59:31 But we grew up friends before you know, brother in law's we were friends before so but yeah, those those are the bottles that are that need the most to me. Absolutely. In my case, it was really about people knowing what my tastes are. And as I kind of grew up in the hobby and grew up in the community, I would have people that would know the things that I enjoy and would suggest that I try something and oftentimes the suggestion would come with a 1:00:00 two ounce bottle of it showing up at my doorstep. And that's how I figured out that I love national distillers products. 1:00:08 Some I was telling somebody kind of the things that I liked about certain things that were my favorites and then before I knew it, there was a bottle of 1960s old granddad bonded 1:00:18 that showed up at my doorstep and 1:00:21 I guess I should be upset with them because it's caused me to lose a whole lot of money after that. 1:00:27 It sounds like that sounds like Ryan Ryan went on a huge old granddad kick for a while. Oh, gosh, you know it for me any of that old nationalist killer stuff is really just killer. It kind of hits me right in whatever my sweet spot is, for whatever reason, I'm telling we're Barban friends now. Hey, 1:00:44 I got some stuff to send you. 1:00:47 But 1:00:48 that, for me is the big is one of the cooler parts of the community is, you know, people who know you and I know other people's tastes and if I see something for 1:01:00 example I got a buddy who was a big q lover at four roses, and I'm not. And anytime I see a really good q i know exactly who it's going to a CPA office in Indiana. 1:01:15 Because I just, I know that somebody that will appreciate it for more than I. That's where we go. Yeah, it really is. I mean, and I think that's a good way to kind of start wrapping this up because we, you know, we really hit on a lot of things of, really, how do we how do we find your bourbon people? Right? I mean, it all starts by a friend or somebody introduces you to bourbon. It's very rare that any of us just stumble it on our own or, or maybe maybe you do get turned on to it by social media or for the general Media TV or purposes and stuff like that. But for the majority of us, there's somebody that gives us that introduction, and I think that we have all been in 1:02:00 situation to, and I know anybody that's probably listening to this podcast, you know, you're, you're one of the you're one of the geeks out there, you're one of the people that truly hone in on this craft, and you really appreciate it. So odds are is that you're sharing the love of bourbon with somebody else. And so that's just how everything continues to flourish and grow. And then from there yet, then it becomes like, oh, add me on Facebook, we add you to a few groups. And then at that point, you you've just you're all in and as, as Jeremy had mentioned earlier, the boxes just start showing up on your front door and, and your PayPal account gets a little lower, but that's just how it works. 1:02:39 That's just how it works. So, gentlemen, and Jeremy, thank you so much for joining tonight. This is again, a fun topic. And you know, I'll go ahead and kind of let you kind of say what you're gonna say there. I don't think I was gonna say anything. 1:02:55 To Are you 1:02:58 looking at me 1:03:00 You 1:03:01 know, it's it's the rule of thumb is just, I mean, I guess it's the rule of thumb for more than just the bourbon community, but don't be an asshole. 1:03:10 Yep. So you know, if you if you just be a nice guy, it's amazing what kind of connections you're come up with. And 21 Kings is picking up a barrel of will it right here in a couple weeks, and I'm fortunate enough to be one of the people doing it. And I never would have gotten the chance to do anything like that. Had I not been able to be a part of these communities. And it's really cool. It's some of the coolest experiences I've gotten to have and really thankful for that. You know, I guess the other bad thing about being in these communities too, is I didn't realize for years, I could just drive down to willet and just go pick up bottles in the gift shop and 1:03:47 I could have been doing it. I could have been doing it all along. And I just I just didn't know. So 1:03:53 that's the that's the bad part of it. But it's, it's also a good thing because you add a lot more appreciation for what you do have so 1:04:00 Again, everybody, thank you so much for joining tonight. Jeremy, do you have any kind of social handles or anything like that where people can find out more about you? Anybody who wants to I guess I'm around on Facebook Jeremy Mendell Twitter at Jeremy Mendell, Instagram at Jeremy Mendell, if you want to talk to me for some strange reason I'm available. Never know, I know where to send. If I see I know he so I know who to call and all of your VSOs to me, and I'll figure out some way to repay you that you'll be happy about. Very interesting. Very interesting. I know you kind of want to just go pick a whole barrel of Oh, yes. Oh, now just get out of them. I actually did I like I'd have one. It was from my pics from the icons of whiskey when I picked those fucking which was at the 17 or 18. 1:04:53 Yeah, we had all the recipes. It was I think that was a 1:04:59 I think it was like a 1:05:01 11 year old Yeah, that was I think the 2017 one that was really good and it's incredibly dorky that I can just pull out of my head 1:05:13 so that was when I was with whisky magazine and yeah that we did that. And that was like the one of the only times you saw all the all the recipes and that was back when four roses. I think they brought out 40 barrels from for us to taste and guide you lucky forget for now. So it's the way the world now. Alright, let's go. Let's go ahead and we'll sign off. So again, Jeremy, thank you so much for coming on tonight. It was a pleasure talking to you. And seriously, thank you so much for bringing this topic up. Because it's it's fun to kind of, you know, really take a retrospective look into really kind of how we all got here and why many people are still actually listening to this podcast because they all have some sort of coming of age tale that's probably very very similar. So 1:06:00 Make sure you check out Jeremy and all those social handles, make sure you check out bourbon pursuit as well as spread MiniK on the Twitter, the Facebook and the Instagrams. And if you're like Jeremy, and you want to help support the show, he's part of our community, you can be part of our community as well. patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. So thank you, everybody. That is a part of it. And thank you, everybody that joined into the chat and watch us live. Another perk of just being a part of the community is you can be a part of these things as they're happening and be able to just chat along with us. So with that, thank you, everybody, and talk to you all next week. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

This devotional episode is based on 1 Peter 4:7-11. We wanted to share how Love covers a multitude of sins and why it is so important that we love with this level of eagerness.1 Peter 4:7-11 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers. 8 Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.PrayerDear Lord,We lift up our hearts to you right now and ask that you would make us a people who love others earnestly. Holy Spirit direct our hearts and remind us of your word. We pray we would above all things love others. We pray we would love our spouse, our children, our friends, and those who are in our life. May your love pour out of us. May your love pouring out of us transform our marriages. We pray others would be impacted by the love we share. We pray we would be able to love so deeply that it covers a multitude of sin. We pray that instead of shame or guilt, people would feel undoubtedly loved by us and by you. We pray for your word to be fulfilled through our choices to walk in love and that your will would be done.In Jesus’ name, amen! READ TRANSCRIPT- [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith, with "Marriage After God." - [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. - [Aaron] And today we're gonna talk about how love covers a multitude of sin. Welcome to the "Marriage After God" podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. - [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. - [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. - [Jennifer] We have been married over a decade. - [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. - [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. - [Aaron] With a desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. - [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life, - Love, - And power, - [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God, - [Jennifer] Together. - [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. - [Jennifer] This is "Marriage After God." Okay Aaron, so we, we survived kind of a hard week. - [Aaron] We did survive. - I mean, - We're barely coming on - Our kids survived. - The other side of it, yes. - [Jennifer] But we're not the only ones going through this, so we thought we would just give you guys a little update of our family and hopefully encourage some of you out there who it might be hitting as well. - [Aaron] Yeah, our whole family got the flu. It was bad, but not bad. It was kind of a weird thing. - [Jennifer] Well, I'll say this, the Lord spared me and gave me the grace to be able to help everyone. 'Cause I felt-- - And you didn't even really get sick, you got some of the, like you felt sick. - Yeah you know the gut pain? - [Aaron] But you didn't have any other symptoms, which was awesome. - And the rosy cheeks. I felt like every once in a while, like I really don't feel good right now, I need to go lay down, but for the most part, I was able to be there to help everyone. Which made me really nervous, because people were, you and the kids were throwing up and I just thought, me, at this stage of the game in pregnancy, throwing up would not go over well with my body. - No and so-- - That woulda been terrible. - [Aaron] We're definitely thanking God, which we did a lot of, oddly. But not to be too graphic, but I'm pretty sure I put a rib out from how hard I was throwing up. - [Jennifer] That sucks. - [Aaron] Yeah, it still is really sore. But, what's awesome is, a couple of things, I just wanna praise you Jennifer, because I feel like you handled everyone being sick, and the inconvenience of it so well. I think I even told you, I was like, "I can tell you're walking in the spirit." Like your attitude was good, how much cleaning had to be done. - [Jennifer] It was a lot of work. - [Aaron] It's no fun when literally all the boys are throwing up and it's like, there's no clean blankets. - [Jennifer] It's all at the same time. - [Aaron] Yeah, so we, but we survived, we're coming on the other side of that. But one thing we practiced, I don't think we've ever done it before, not that we're not thankful to God. - [Jennifer] Not in this kind of circumstance, it's not at the forefront of our minds. - [Aaron] I did a post a couple weeks ago encouraging men to thank God for everything, if they get cut off in traffic, if something bad happens, even-- - [Jennifer] You didn't say if your whole family comes down with sickness, did you? - [Aaron] I know, if something good happens, I just said, say, whatever it is that happens today, thank God for it. And I tried practicing that. And so I'm literally in the fetal position in the bathtub, and I'm trying to thank God. I'm like, "Okay God, thank you. "Thank you for being sick." And I was like, why am I thanking God for this? Well, thank you for reminding me that I'm human. Like I'm fragile. Thank you for reminding me that one day I'm not gonna have this sickness. - [Jennifer] Or that we need to pray. - [Aaron] Yeah thank you for reminding, - Ask him. - Humbling me, showing me that my weakness. So there was a lot of things to thank God for for being sick, and I directly thanked God for being sick. And then we of course have thanked God for healing us and sparing our family from being even worse, 'cause it probably could have been worse. - [Jennifer] Something that really stood out to me is I didn't know you had this perspective kind of going into everyone being sick, and I wouldn't say I was there with you in those beginning moments, but you brought the family to the living room, and you said, "You know what, we're gonna pray, "and we're just gonna thank God today." And I think even one of the kids asked, "Why are we thanking God?" - [Aaron] Doesn't make any sense. - [Jennifer] But I was questioning it in my own heart too, like, okay, where's this going? But it was so beautiful to hear your prayer and you starting out saying, "God, thank you for this sickness." And it was humbling for me and for my heart to go, "oh yeah" you know? And to have that perspective before him. And then, I gotta share this other experience is just a friend of mine who, their family also got it really bad. - [Aaron] Pretty much our whole church got sick. - [Jennifer] But I met up with her for coffee when it was all past and she goes, "You know I just found, we found our whole family "just worshiping God through it." And it was so cool, kinda the same thing. And I said, "I didn't really worship him through it, "but at the end of all the laundry being done, "all the bathrooms being cleaned, "and having taken a shower, I came out singing "'Victory in Jesus' so, that was awesome." - [Aaron] But it is worship. Thanking God is worship. So whatever he gives, I think Job says it, "Should we not thank God for the good and the evil?" Like the bad things that happen? We thank God for those too, because he's God and he deserves our thanksgiving. And at the end of the day, salvation is so much greater than anything that we can go through. So, at minimum you can be like, "God, thank you so much "that one day I'm gonna be with you." That is so good. - [Jennifer] So if your family happens to get hit by whatever bug this is, - [Aaron] It's going around, yeah. - [Jennifer] Whatever's going around, we just wanted to encourage you guys to move forward with a thankful heart and to trust God and to be prayerful. And also just to be patient, because we know it's an inconvenience, we know it's hard, it takes away from your work schedule, it takes away from things on your to-do list that maybe you were hoping to do or whatever it is. We know it's hard, but if God's allowing it to happen, we can trust him and walk through it with him. - [Aaron] Yeah, so that was just a little update on our flu campaign. But we wanna encourage you. We have a new challenge. We've been doing a lot of these lately, a lot of new downloads and challenges and free things that you guys can get from us. And our new one's called the parentingprayerchallenge.com. We launched it last week and this week you get to do it. We're still encouraging parents to sign up to pray for either their daughter or their son or both. So if you haven't signed up for the Parenting Prayer Challenge, it's completely free. We're gonna send you 31 prompts every day, encouraging you to pray for different things for your child. - Over 31 days. - Over 31 days. - [Jennifer] Not 31 emails in one day. - [Aaron] Yeah, that's happened one time. Yeah, one a day, and the whole idea is that at the end of the 31 days you've built a habit of praying for your children. I'm sure all you parents love to pray for your children, but we just wanted to give this resource to encourage you to pray more, to pray deeper, to pray more consistently and give you ideas on what other things to pray for for your kids. - [Jennifer] Yeah, and I'll add this, it goes hand in hand with our books, "31 prayers for your son and for your daughter." And if you have those books, oh this'll be an incredible reminder. It's kinda like an alarm, right? Because your email comes through and then you're like, "Oh yeah." So you can get the book and go along with it that way too. - [Aaron] Mm-hmm, so parentingprayerchallenge.com, all one word, spelled the way you would think it's spelled. And sign up for free today. All right guys, we've been doing this new thing, we've mentioned it a few times this season. We're trying to do a marriage episode, we're doing a devotional style episode, a Q&A, we're trying to give a little bit more diversity on the kinds of things we're bringing up and this episode's gonna be a devotional style. We're gonna talk about some scripture. And something that we've been learning, something that I taught on at church. And so we hope it encourages you and why don't you, Jennifer start off by reading-- - [Jennifer] Oh, I was gonna sit back and let you teach for 30 minutes, yeah. - [Aaron] Oh, I'll just do it? No. - Go for it. - [Aaron] Why don't you read the scripture that we're gonna be talking about, - Okay. - And then we'll go into it. - [Jennifer] So it's 1 Peter 4:7-11 and it says this, "The end of all things is at hand, "therefore be self controlled "and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers. "Above all, keep loving one another earnestly "since love covers a multitude of sins." - [Aaron] This is a great scripture in 1 Peter and we're excited to talk about it and what it means for us as believers, not only in our marriages, but just in life in general and walking in the body of Christ. And the power that is in our love for one another. And what that means and looks like. So we're gonna dig into this, these few scriptures, and kinda break it down and talk about some stuff and Jennifer you might have some questions. But we're just gonna break it down and see how this applies to us in our life. So the first thing I wanna point out is where our perspective should be. And Jennifer you read it, the very first thing it says in verse seven is "The end of all things is at hand." - [Jennifer] I feel like there should be an exclamation mark. - [Aaron] And it's almost is, it's a semicolon which says everything I'm about to say is attached to this statement. The end of all things is at hand, and so, we can easily, quickly think this is talking about Jesus coming back, or the end of days, right? But in the New Testament when it talks about the end of days or all things at hand or the end of the generation, it's mostly talking about all of the things that needed to take place, they needed to occur for the salvation story, for redemption, God's plan for redemption that he's been planning and preparing since Adam and Eve in the garden. And so, when Peter says the end of all things is at hand, he's saying that essentially, Christ has been born, he's died, and he's resurrected. - [Jennifer] Like we have what we need. - [Aaron] The thing that God has planned to take place has taken place. - Yeah. - [Aaron] Which means a lot. It means that we can now draw near to God. It means that we now can have salvation and a right relationship with God. Because without the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and his ascension and him sending the holy spirit there is no, like we can't be made right with God. So all of those things, the end of all things is at hand. The end of everything that God planned for salvation has been done, as Jesus says on the cross, it is finished. So it didn't necessarily mean that hey, the end of the world is tomorrow. But it's also an allusion, it alludes to Christ returning. Because now that the church age has begun, the spirit is living in man, we're made right with God, the bride of Christ is growing, we have an expectation of Christ's return. So we're in this imminent return zone. Like at any moment Christ can come back. - [Jennifer] And we are, we're called to walk a certain way. - [Aaron] Yeah. And so that's kinda, he starts off these statements with here's how you should be thinking. Realize first and foremost you have everything you need because Christ died and resurrected. He's given you his spirit, so now you can walk in his spirit and not the flesh. Like the things that we need to accomplish what he's about to tell us have already happened and are already available to us and been given to us. So that's our perspective in our relationships with our spouse, our children, our church body. That the end of all things is at hand. Like first and foremost, I have everything I need in Christ Jesus, to walk this way that we're about to talk about. And I walk this way because I look forward to Christ coming back, and I wanna not be ashamed at his return, I wanna stand boldly at his return. I wanna be excited for his return. - [Jennifer] It gives those relationships a lot of depth and purpose, how we interact with each other and how we're supposed to be in those relationships with each other. - [Aaron] Right and so, if you think about your marriage. You say, "Well, I just can't because my husband "is this, this, this." - [Jennifer] Or together you're just facing a really hard circumstance. - [Aaron] Yeah, like we went through stuff. And it's like, oh, our love for each other is stifled because of this hard circumstance or these character traits in the other person. But if our mindsets are on wow, first of all I can, because Christ did, and I should, because Christ is coming. My perspective and the way I treated you and the way we treat others would totally be transformed because we're no longer thinking of this immediate, well how did you treat me and how am I gonna treat you? - [Jennifer] Well, it's not about us. - Exactly. - Right? - [Aaron] Which is a powerful thing. And this is being taught to the believer, but the ramifications for this is in every aspect of your life. Most directly in your marriage and then also most directly in all of your relationships with other believers in the church. We need to have this perspective. - [Jennifer] Okay, so, then moving on in that verse, the next word is therefore. - [Aaron] Yeah and-- - [Jennifer] So the end of all things is at hand, - [Both] Therefore. - [Aaron] Yeah, and someone always says, "What's therefore there for?" I mean you ask yourself, "Well, why is that there?" And it's attached to the last statement. So, since the end of all things is at hand, be this way. And what does it say right there, Jennifer? - [Jennifer] Be self controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers. - [Aaron] So, in relation to our relationships and in our life and in the way we interact in this world, self-controlled, how often do we say the word self-controlled in our house? - [Jennifer] Well, we're in the beginning stages of training our kids, so I feel like we say it all the time, multiple times a day. - [Aaron] 150,000 times a day. Are you being self-controlled? - Remember, self-control. - [Aaron] Be self-controlled, you're not being self-controlled. You must have self-control. Like over and over and over again. 'Cause that's, I mean our kids are learning to have control over themselves, that's the point. But self-controlled meaning, in my life, am I in control or is my flesh in control? 'Cause when my flesh is in control, we are not self-controlled. We're gonna eat as much as-- - We just give way - We want. - To whatever we want, yeah. - [Aaron] When I'm angry, I'm just gonna say what I wanna say. Oh, well, I was angry, that's why I said that. Well, that's not self-controlled. That's just blurting out what's coming to your mind because you're angry, rather than considering the other person. - [Jennifer] Which the mind is the next thing it says. - [Aaron] Yeah, sober-minded, which yes, this is talking about sobriety, not on drugs, not drunk with alcohol, but sober-minded is much more than just, we talked about this in another episode. I can't remember the name of the other episode, but it's having a right way of thinking. A clear way of thinking. So if you think about, we just talked about anger. You know Jennifer, you do something that really frustrates me and then I get so angry I just start saying whatever I want, like I'm not being sober-minded. I'm letting my wrath and my anger control my words and my actions, rather than my mind. - [Jennifer] It's like being self-controlled of your mind specifically. - Right. - [Jennifer] Like being able to have those thought processes and walk yourself through it mentally. - [Aaron] Another example of being sober-minded is fear. So, there's nothing wrong with natural fear, like you know fire's gonna burn you, so you don't touch it, but we're talking about like there's something going on in the world and it's causing us to have this anxiety and fear which causes us to make decisions and not seek out wisdom and oh, we're gonna go do this thing because XYZ over here, I don't know how that's gonna turn out, therefore we're gonna. And so that's not sober-minded either. Instead of thinking through what is reality, thinking through what is the repercussions if XYZ happens or if we don't have what we need or if, like thinking sober-minded is rather than operating in the fear and just making decisions off that, you're operating in knowledge and wisdom and you seek counsel and you're slow to act, slow to speak. So that's the idea of sober-minded. So since we know that the end of all things is at hand, meaning we have everything we need in Christ, meaning all of the things that God planned for redemption has happened, you have the holy spirit, be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers. - [Jennifer] So real quick, I just have to, just hearing you repeat that, it says, "Be self-controlled and sober-minded "for the sake of your prayers," that means you're praying. So it's almost like it's saying be self-controlled and sober-minded and prayerful. Like be a person of prayer. - [Aaron] Right, and we just talked about being sick. If our minds were in this position of thankfulness and we were just wallowing in the suffering, 'cause throwing up's not fun, not feeling good is not fun, and we could just sit there and be like woe is us. And we're not even being sober-minded in that. But instead we're like, "Thank you Lord." It actually helped us elevate above our current circumstances to be able to see it from a heavenly position. Like, okay, well, just because this thing is happening, doesn't mean I stop being a Christian. Doesn't mean I can now act XYZ, be this way, say these things. No, I actually even in this, can walk this out. Because we know all things have been fulfilled in Christ, and his return is imminent, even in my sickness I get to say, "Well if Christ was to come right now, "I wanna be like him, wanna look like him." This is how we must live as people who claim the name of Jesus. We can't claim the name, but not walk it out. - [Jennifer] Mm-hmm, okay so before you move on, I feel like maybe some of our listeners would have the same question, and that is, it says "for the sake of your prayers" so does that mean your prayers are in trouble if you're not being self-controlled or you're not being sober-minded? What does that mean? - [Aaron] Yeah, I mean, in 1 Peter I think we get another picture of that when it talks about husbands walking with their wives in an understanding way, it says for the sake of your prayers. So, there is a way that the believer can walk that would hinder our prayers. And it could be put this way, someone told me once, "God's not gonna tell you "to do a new thing until you've done the old thing." Like the thing he's asked you to do already. And so it's almost like this, we're looking for a new word from the Lord, we're looking for guidance and wisdom. And he's like, well, but you're not even loving your wife right now. - Mm-hmm, I have a really good example of this when it comes to kids. Olive, just I think it was yesterday, she came up to me and she was like, "Mom, I don't have anything to do." And so I gave her something to do, it was a small task. And she turned around really quickly and said, "I don't wanna do that." - [Aaron] What else can I do? - [Jennifer] What else can I do? And I looked at her, I said, "Sweetheart, "can you go do what Mommy asked you to do?" - [Aaron] Right. Yeah, and there's even a scripture that says, "Go back and do the first things "that you've been told to do." Like you've left your first love, we learned in Revelations. There's this idea of like, God's already given us some commands, given us some things to do as believers. In his power, to do it, and we wanna skip over those things and we're gonna talk about this. We wanna skip over those things to get to the other things. We're like, "Well, I don't wanna do that thing." Loving that person's difficult. Or, praying for that person, ehh, let's pray for this big thing over here. - [Jennifer] Or how about, "I'll be self-controlled, "but I don't care about being sober-minded." - Exactly yeah. - You know what I mean? - [Aaron] Which doesn't make any sense because, - [Jennifer] I know. - [Aaron] If you're not sober, like let's talk about being drunk, you're not in self-control either. Those things go hand in hand. So yes, the Bible teaches that our prayers can be hindered. I don't know exactly what that means, does that mean that God doesn't hear 'em at all? Or is it that I am hindered? Like I'm not gonna want to pray more. I don't have a desire to, I'm frustrated. No, Lord, I don't want to. It's like when our, like you said our kids, when they have an attitude, Wyatt crosses his arms, puts his head down, it's like he doesn't wanna look at us. - [Jennifer] Or like that example you gave of us being sick, if we weren't sober-minded and self-controlled, we wouldn't have prayed in thankfulness, so yeah, hindered in a way that if we're not walking that way and we're not being that way then we won't be praying at all. - Yeah so, - We won't be a people of prayer. - Regardless of how it plays out, I don't want either of those things. I wanna be able to come to God boldly and I also want God to receive me and hear my prayers. The Bible tells us that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, it's in James. And I want my prayers heard. I want them to avail much. And when I pray for my family, when I pray for health, when I pray for opportunities, when I pray for other, my family members, when I pray for the lost, I want those prayers to be heard and to have power with God. So, God says, "Well be sober-minded and self-controlled "so that your prayers won't be hindered." Then I should just do that. - [Jennifer] Do it. - [Aaron] It's not easy all the time, but that's what we get to do, because the end of all things is at hand, so I should be able to do it. Okay, so let's move on to this next part of this verse. - [Jennifer] Well the next verse. - [Aaron] Yeah, the next verse, there ya go. Verse eight starts off, it says, "Above all." Okay, and I just wanted to highlight this idea, so if you're in your Bible, which that'd be awesome if you were, you should be. It says, "Above all," comma, "keep loving one another earnestly." And I just wrote down some ideas of what's the all? Like above all, above how generous you might be financially, like, "I've given so much." Above being right, like "Well I know "that this scripture means this." Above memorizing every scripture, above being debt free, above your health, above your safety, above all. Above everything that you see as good, 'cause these things are good, for the most part, don't neglect to do this thing. So, above all, do this thing, right? - [Jennifer] Do you think it's easy for us in our flesh to justify like, "Well, I don't have to love that person, "and we don't even get along, but I'm doing this "over here, so, I'm good with God because this over here." Do you hear what I'm saying? - [Aaron] Yeah, we do this all the time, and there's a scripture that I'll bring up that shows this hypocrisy. Like, "Well no, that person doesn't need to be in my life, "because of XY and Z, but, you know what? "But I read every day, I'm in the word every day." "Oh but I pray, I'll pray for that person. "I don't have to love 'em, but I'll pray for 'em." I think something that I've heard a lot, and it doesn't make any sense, but we say this, "Oh, I love him, I just don't like him." Almost as if love is this general like, yeah we're in the same city, but I'm never gonna talk to him, I'm not gonna be kind to him, I'm not gonna be cordial, I'm not gonna even, I don't wanna go out of my way for them. I'm not gonna give to them, I'm not gonna help them, I'm not gonna. So what love is that? - [Jennifer] If you're doing that, I was gonna say, what's your definition of love? - [Aaron] And that's my point is we, okay, I'll just do this. So the point of everything I said above all, or not that we shouldn't do those other things, 'cause I never want someone to be like, "Well, all we have to do is love others, "and we don't have to be generous, "and we don't have to read our word and memorize scripture." These things that are actually really good for us. "And my health and my, all these things don't matter, "as long as I just love." No. All of those things matter, but we don't neglect this one thing, and often it's the one thing we neglect. We work on all those other things, 'cause we have, those are easier, those are personal. We can control 'em. We can't control other people and that's why it's so hard. And I think of this in Matthew 23:23 Jesus says this, he says, "Woe to you scribes and pharisees, hypocrites, "for you tithe mint and dill and cumin, "and have neglected the weightier matters of the law." And then get what he says, "Justice, mercy and faithfulness. "These you ought to have done "without neglecting the others." - [Jennifer] Like do it all. - [Aaron] He's like, "Yeah, you spent time, "you outwardly show all these good things that you do, "yet you've neglected justice, like you don't care "about those in your midst who need justice "and you've been unjust." Or showing mercy and faithfulness. You haven't remained faithful to your spouses, you haven't remained faithful to your people, you haven't remained faithful to, and he's saying these things you should have done without neglecting those other things that you do. And so that was the point I was getting at is like yeah, all those other things are good, but we cannot throw out loving one another earnestly. - [Jennifer] So you used the word earnestly, why don't you define that, just for our listeners really quick? - [Aaron] Okay, 'cause it's a pretty powerful word and it's how he wants us to love each other. It's not like, "Hey, I love you, yeah I'll see you later. "Oh yeah, we're good buddies." It's something deeper than that. He says, "Love one another earnestly." And the definition of earnestly means with sincere and intense conviction. It's so powerful. It's not just a, in passing a word you just say about someone, it's a life lived out way of loving. It's a my actions and the way I think reflect the deepness of my conviction and belief about how I love you. And so a perfect example is in marriage. I love you, and it's not just a word. I show you by how I take care of you. And how I show up every day and how I sit and talk with you. And how I ask for forgiveness, and I'm patient, and all these things are the actions of my love for you. - [Jennifer] Yeah, I think that's really important to point out, because I think in marriage specifically, you can text each other back and forth, I love you, or say it at the end of a phone call, conversation. Saying it in passing or before you leave to go to work. But are your actions proving what those words actually mean? So you've convinced yourself in your mind, yeah, of course I love my husband, of course I love my wife. And I tell them every day. - [Aaron] How do they know? - [Jennifer] But, are your actions supporting your words? - [Aaron] Yeah, and so let's break down this definition a little bit, it says with a sincere and intense conviction, that's the earnestness. Sincere means free from pretense or deceit. Proceeding from genuine feelings. So I don't just say it, it's not just a word that I use so that I look good with my other Christian friends and brothers and sisters. - Or that you know you should use because you're married. - [Aaron] Yeah, like, "Oh yeah, of course I love so-and-so." But yet, you don't truly believe it in your heart. You struggle with believing, like well, do I love him? I mean, I could move on. I'm not going to, 'cause I don't wanna look bad. That's not love, it's a free from pretense or deceit. So there's nothing, you're not saying it to receive anything like, "Oh good, so good that you love that person." And you're not saying it out of, it's not a lie. When you say you love someone it's truthful. It's a genuine, genuineness, a real thing from with inside of you. And then that second part, intense conviction. And I smashed two definitions together, 'cause the word intense and conviction I put them together and it's a highly concentrated and firmly held belief in what you are doing, right? So, it's not going away. My love for my brothers and sisters in Christ, my love for others in the world, my love for my wife, it's real and it's going to drive my actions and my decisions and my attitudes and it's gonna cause me to repent and it's gonna cause me to change and grow because that conviction is solid. It's there, and when I'm challenged in that conviction, when the listener is challenged in that conviction of love, they get to ask themselves, "Well do I truly love so-and-so?" And then they get to remember, well, the end of all things is at hand, I must love so-and-so, regardless. Without pretense, it needs to be truthful and powerful. That's what that word earnestly means. - [Jennifer] I love that definition of intense conviction that you shared, and it makes me think how intentional this type of love truly is, because-- - [Aaron] That's a good word, intentional. - [Jennifer] Yeah, it's intentional because you're motivated by your, like it said, "firmly held belief in what you are doing" so everything that I do in our home, everything I do with our kids, everything I do with you, comes out and is an overflow of this belief that I have that I truly love you and that genuine feeling that you talked about earlier. And that's such a different situation when you compare it to just saying the words I love you or just going about your day without any motivations as to why you're doing those things, you know? It makes me think of the type of motivational speaking you hear when it comes to entrepreneurship, where it's like, "You gotta know your why." You gotta know your why. - Yeah, what's your why? - [Jennifer] What's your why? So it makes me go there when I think about in marriage, why are you doing all the little things that you do throughout your day? It's because you love that person. - [Aaron] Mm-hmm, and it's not superficial, and it's not just a word, but it's an actual held belief. Like "No, I love my wife. "I love John over there." Like truly love them, not just, "We're Christians "and we love each other." - Right. And if we truly consider this you guys, then when we get into a hard spot in marriage, when we get into conflict or something happens unexpectedly that you don't desire, you can continue on, because there's this hope knowing that, "Well no, I love them. "You know, I know this is hard, but God's given me "a love for them." - [Aaron] Yeah. What I think is really cool, I just thought about this, often we think about this idea of growing in love, which we do, we change and our level of love deepens. - It deepens, yeah. - [Aaron] But it's actually, the way this is stated, it's actually a starting point. We start at this basis of love for one another. Not build into it. It starts at this place and I thought that was really cool. I just was, - I like that. - [Aaron] I was just thinking it's like it's not, yeah, it does grow over time, but it's also, like you said, even in those hard times, you default to that position of love. Not default to, well we're not in love because, or we're building in love and the default position is no love. That's not actually, I mean marriage starts, usually, for the most part, with a deep conviction of love. And so the default position is love. And I didn't have the scripture originally here, but I thought about this and I think it goes perfectly well. What this level of love is supposed to look like, it's supposed to be remarkable. It's not supposed to look like the love of the world. Like the world loves itself. There's people that they love their own and they do a good job of that, but the love that Christians are supposed to have for one another is supposed to be remarkable, miraculous. And Jesus puts it this way in John 13:34. "A new commandment I give to you, "that you love one another. "Just as I have loved you, "you also are to love one another. "By this all people will know that you are my disciples "if you have love for one another." So it's not like, if we do these great things, or if we have this great band, or if we preach this great message, it says if you love one another the way I loved you, the whole world will know, oh that's a disciple of Christ. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] That's remarkable. So I get, the question I have in your marriage, in your relationships at church, would the world look at how you love them as remarkable? Like that's a remarkable love. How could he love like that? How could she love like that after so much has happened to her, after this or that? It's a remarkable love and it can only be done with Jesus Christ. That's what he says, "If you love as I have loved you." Which is an amazing, amazing kind of love. It's literally remarkable. And I have some notes here and this is, this is exactly why churches fall apart. This is why friendships dissolve, this is why marriages end. When we let the intensity of our conviction to love each other soften. We got to that point a few years into our marriage. Our conviction to love one another, because of the things we were going through, got weakened. - [Jennifer] I was gonna say, I don't feel like softens is just the right word because it sounds mushy-gushy, but I mean we're talking about the dissolving of that belief and conviction. - [Aaron] Yeah. And it's not that those things that were happening had some external power to weaken our love for each other superficially, - We chose that. - We let our love, yeah we chose it, that's a good word. And so, I just wanna ask you, as we get into this, have you let your love, the earnestness of your love for your spouse, for other believers, weaken? For whatever reason, because someone hurt you, because someone said something harmful about you, because someone didn't pay you back? - [Jennifer] The relationship's messy or hard or challenging and you just wanna, - Walk away. - Walk away. - It'd be easier. - Yeah. - [Aaron] There's been so many times I've thought to myself, it would just be easier to move. - [Jennifer] Well, we thought that in the beginning of our marriage when we were facing hardship and we got to the point at the end of three and a half years where we were, so incredibly close to walking away convinced in our selfish flesh that it would be better for each other if we just separated. - [Aaron] Move on. - [Jennifer] And instead, God got ahold of our hearts in a remarkable way and, I mean he brought the message to you first and then to me, but it's a choice. - [Aaron] Yeah. - [Jennifer] And are we gonna let our circumstances dictate that choice or are we gonna choose it in our hearts and move past the circumstances? Or even if we have to deal with the circumstances for the rest of our life, and that was the commitment we had to choose. There came this pivotal moment where, people who've read our books, they know what I'm talking about, but we're standing in church, Aaron, and you're sharing this heart that God has given you for our marriage to continue on regardless if anything changed. That is remarkable. And that saved us, that saved our marriage. - [Aaron] And here's the difference in the types of love. The love that the world has for itself, and the love that we are to have for our brothers and sisters and our spouse. The love that Christ gave to us was unconditional. The love that we try and walk in is often transactional. You do this, I'll do this. You give me this, I'll give you that. Oh you didn't do the thing, or you weren't the certain way? Then I'm not going to. Jesus it says, "Yet while we were still sinners died for us." So even when we were weakest, when we couldn't save ourselves, Christ died. Christ gave himself up for his bride. And this is the message that Christ gave me that day, reminding me, he's like, "Hey are you gonna love "your wife unconditionally, or transactionally? "Are you gonna love her regardless if she ever gives you "what you think you deserve, what you ought to have? "Or are you gonna love her like I did "when you could do nothing for me, "and I still died for you?" - [Jennifer] John 13 comes back to my mind like you said. Jesus says, "Love as I loved you." - [Aaron] And you know what this sincerity and intensity, this earnestness sounds very familiar to how Jesus said we would worship God. He says this to the woman at the well, in John 4:24, he says, "God is spirit "and those who worship him must worship "in spirit and truth." Spirit and truth. And this isn't talking about worshiping each other. But it's how we love each other, in spirit and in truth. - [Jennifer] It reminds me of the definition going back earlier to those genuine feelings. - [Aaron] Mm-hmm, it's not from pretense or deceit. It's no, I genuinely love you. I may not know how to do it well, but I'm going to default to love, I'm going to default to giving you the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to love you regardless if you give me what I deserve. And then in Matthew 22 verse 37-48 says this, "And he said to him, 'You shall love the lord your God "'with all your heart and with all your soul "'and with all your mind. "'This is there greatest and first commandment. "'And a second is like it, you shall love your neighbor "'as yourself, on these two commandments "'depend all the law and the prophets.'" - [Jennifer] I remember we read this verse to our kids and they got really confused, because we've taught them the 10 Commandments. - Yeah. - And they were like, "No no no, that's not the." - [Aaron] No, you have to honor your mom and dad. Like, yes. And what I explained to 'em is, and this is what Jesus says, he says, "Anyone who does these won't break any of the laws." Because when you love your neighbor, you're not gonna steal from them. When you love your neighbor, you're not gonna lie to them. When you love your neighbor, you're not gonna covet their things. You're gonna say praise God that you've given them those things, God. Praise God. They're gonna use 'em for you, I hope. We don't covet. When we love God we don't dishonor our parents. When you love your parents you're not gonna dishonor them. And so, that's the kind of love that we get to have for one another. And it's actually, it's one of the greatest commandments, to love God with all our heart, mind and soul and to love each other as ourselves. To love each other with that intensity. Okay, so we're getting up to the last part of this section of scripture and it's the most powerful one. It's actually the title of this episode. And it's the reason why Peter is commanding us to love each other in the first place. It's the reason why he's saying to do these things, it's the reason why he gave us the mindset of hey, the end of all things is at hand, be this way, love this way. So before I move on to this next portion of this scripture, I'm gonna read the whole scripture again. It's 1 Peter 4:7-11. "The end of all things is at hand, "therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded "for the sake of your prayers. "Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, "since love covers a multitude of sins." Okay, so here's the-- - You slowed down there at the end Aaron, - I know it's, - [Jennifer] Is that important? - [Aaron] Well, it's the most powerful section of this scripture, I believe. And what's amazing about this is it's the opportunity that believers have to love like Christ. What did Christ's love do? - [Jennifer] Saved us. - [Aaron] It covered us. We've just been teaching the kids through Adam and Eve, the story of Adam and Eve and how they were to, God told that surely on the day that you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will die. And guess what. - [Jennifer] Well the kids asked the question, - They're like, - But they didn't die! - [Aaron] Yeah, they didn't die. Here's what's amazing is something died instead. They covered themselves with fig leaves, God covered them in skins. So an animal had to die. So even then, way back in the beginning, in the very first people, God showed his redemption plan. That he was gonna substitute the death that we deserve for another. And so it was a picture right then and there of what Christ was gonna do. And this is what the believer gets to do. This is the remarkable love that the world's gonna see and be like, whoa, those people are God's, Christ's disciples, because Christ died for them, and look how they love each other. - [Jennifer] They wouldn't be able to do it without him. - [Aaron] Yeah, and so love covers a multitude of sins. So here's a question, I taught this at church and I asked this question, and it was hard for me to get it out without crying. But I said, "Who doesn't want their sins covered?" I said, "Raise your hand." How many hands do you think went up? None. So I ask the listener, do you want your sins covered? Do you thank God that his son Jesus and the blood that he shed covers your sins completely? That you are made white as snow? That you are clean before God? Okay, so if we can answer that question with "Yes, praise God," then our love should do the same. Our love has that same power. I personally love the fact that God no longer sees my sin. I personally love that who I was before Christ is now dead and buried. But, what we often do is we highlight other people's sins. And what it does is it raises us up and puts them down. Oh so-and-so, I can't believe they would treat me that way. You can't believe it? I mean how else do we deserve to be treated, really? We deserve hell. That's what the human state deserves. - [Jennifer] There's other times in marriage that we hold their sin against them. - [Aaron] Absolutely, yeah. - [Jennifer] So, whether it's for ammunition later, or maybe you're not intentionally thinking that, but all the sudden it comes up again, and you haven't covered their sin in love. You've been hanging on to it out of bitterness and anger, and you're gonna spew it out back in their face to make them feel a certain way. - [Aaron] Or waiting for them to trip up and it makes you feel better, because as long as their sin is greater than your sin then you're not a sinner. That's like the logic we use. I know that we struggled with this. You believed because I struggled with certain things you didn't even wanna see your own sin. Things that you were dealing with, your own pride, your own bitterness, your own angers, 'cause I was the sinner in the relationship. I was the one that needed to repent, I was the one that needed to change. And I did, I mean it's not like I didn't. But we do that, we look, we long for the sin in others. Oh, since they're that way, I can be this way. Rather than wanting to cover those sins. Rather than wanting to overlook them and remind those people of who they are in Christ, without pretense, without this idea of like, I'm gonna point this out, because I wanna hurt them. Or I wanna feel better. - [Jennifer] I think just kind of glancing back over those first few years of marriage, something else that I've struggled with is holding on to the sins that you struggled with even after saying I forgive you or trying to make up and resolve things. Because I had this belief about you that you were gonna fail me. So I was building a case, right? - [Aaron] You were waiting for me to, yeah. - [Jennifer] The next time you messed up, I go, "See, this is the type of person that you are." And I held up a mirror to show you your sin instead of pointing you to God and saying, "But he's redeemed you." You know what I mean? I didn't give you-- - Why you acting like this? God's redeemed you. - I didn't give you the positive message, because I truly cared about restoration at that point I was looking for a case in order to get out. To leave, to say, "You're this way, and I can't handle it." - [Aaron] Yeah. And that leads me to this question, do we see our spouse's sins against us as special or less deserving of forgiveness and grace? Do we see the sins and shortcomings of others towards us as less deserving, as special? Yeah, yeah, I've done things, I get it, God forgives me, but what they've done? No, what they've done is not forgivable. What they've done is, you can't tell me to love that person. Well, you know what, I don't. I'm not telling you anything. God says it, okay? When you give that word picture, 'cause I think it perfectly sums up this idea of when we love the way Christ loves, what it does. - [Jennifer] Well, I was just thinking about this idea of covering a multitude of sins by our love, the word picture that I got in my mind to help me understand that is a blanket and it's function. When you think about a blanket and being wrapped up and curled up on the couch with it, it provides warmth and comfort and padding and it consumes you. - It protects you. - [Jennifer] It protects you, it's just all around you and it was a really beautiful picture for me to understand how God covers us. Kinda like even as you said, going back to Adam and Eve, how he covered them, ya know? - [Aaron] And then the picture I got, and the Bible even uses it, says that our sins are made white as snow. And we live in a place that snows. And you see all the landscape, there's all the colors, the grass, the concrete, the trees, the houses. - [Jennifer] Pretty soon everything starts to fade away. - [Aaron] It snows and guess what. Everything's the same color. - Everything's white. - Everything's white. And beautiful and it could be on the dirtiest, muddiest area, and it's a beautiful white field. And that's what Christ's blood does is it covers us. And out of our thankfulness for that, we get to love others the same way. And this isn't an overlooking of sin, this isn't a pretending sin hasn't happened. And I'll talk about that in a second. But it's the way we love that no one, no one's sin is special that doesn't deserve our forgiveness, because what we've done is so worthy of punishment. The littlest sin we've done is detrimental to our own nature. And Christ has forgiven that in us. And I was reading in Leviticus this morning, and it was talking about all of the sacrifices and all the atonements and the priest is supposed to do this and all, it was so weird, I'm reading, I was like, "I wanna watch a video on this." So I watched the Bible Project's video on atonement. - [Jennifer] Oh they're good. - [Aaron] Yeah, it was good. And I almost started crying in Starbucks, 'cause I go to Starbucks after the gym, watching it because it was explaining how the atonement was a replacement and it was talking about the two types of evil, it was the sin against your brother or God. And it washes that away. But the other thing is the broken relationship aspect. Let's say you stole something, you paid it back, right? But there's also now distrust and fear that's in the relationship. And so that has to be atoned for as well. And so there's this picture of the priest sprinkling blood over the temple and the Tent of Meeting, right? And it showed this picture of, there was all this black looking weeds on the ground, and every time the blood hit the ground it turned to normal. And it said the blood also brought us into a safe relationship and a love relationship. And that's what this love does when it's covering. It's not just pretending things didn't happen, it's actually mending relationships so that we can walk with people not in fear, not in angst or anxiety, but we can actually walk with people in freedom and in love and in purity. That's what this does. And I wanted to share that 'cause it literally almost made me cry when I was thinking what God's done for me, and how he's, he didn't just fix the offense, he also fixed the relationship that was broken because of the offense. - [Jennifer] It's remarkable. - [Aaron] Yeah. So, I just wanna quickly, we talked through a lot of the scriptures, but I wanted to quickly say, this isn't to say we ignore sin, because that actually is unloving. Ignoring someone's sin is unloving. The loving thing to do is to address the sin, not out of our own vindication, trying to get something paid back to us, but out of, like you said, pointing them back to the truth of what God said about them. Or if they're not a believer, to repentance and salvation. So the loving way to, we deal with sin lovingly. And we come to people in truth and our position is of we wanna see the best for you. We want you to be in a right relationship with us. As Matthew 18 says, it's like you've won your brother. That's what you go to them for is for the purpose of winning your brother, not for winning the argument or winning the, oh see, all I want is an apology and we'll be good. No, you're going with the intention of hey, this is broken right now. We need to fix this. Love covering a multitude of sins isn't to say that the sins just disappear. It's to say that we deal with them the biblical way, the loving way for the purpose of reconciliation, 'cause that is the ministry we've been given is reconciliation. - [Jennifer] And we do this for people because we desire the same reciprocation, right? Of love? - I want it. - [Jennifer] I want people to overlook and cover the sins that I've committed, even the slightest or smallest, there's no degree. It doesn't matter. If I'm imperfect, I want someone to love me still. And I think that's important to remember, especially in marriage. - [Aaron] So I hope that bit of scripture encourages you in your walk. As usual we pray before signing off, so we're gonna pray. Dear lord, we lift up our hearts to you right now and ask that you would make us a people who love others earnestly. Holy spirit direct our hearts and remind us of your word. We pray we would above all things, love others. We pray we would love our spouse, our children, our friends and those who are in our life. May your love pour out of us. May your love pouring out of us transform our marriages. We pray others would be impacted by the love we share. We pray we'd be able to love so deeply that it covers a multitude of sin. We pray that instead of shame or guilt, people would feel undoubtedly loved by us and by you. We pray for your word to be fulfilled through our choices to walk in love and that your will would be done. In Jesus name, amen. Hey thanks for joining us for this episode. We pray it blessed you, of course. And don't forget to join the Parenting Prayer Challenge. That's parentingprayerchallenge.com It's completely free and we pray it blesses you. See you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

It started with a question in the #AmWriting Facebook group: How do you get it all done?And the answer was, of course—we don’t, no one does, we push things off until tomorrow or we put out fires all day and then frantically write until late in the evening or we drive our children around for hours while chastising ourselves for not making better choices. But really, you all said. Really truly when do you write? And how d you put it first? And what do you do when you don’t or can’t? This is us, three full time writers and also parents (all of teenagers), talking about the push and pull of looking like you’re at home and available when you’re not, and how the awful truth is that sometimes you are, and how we control what we can and scream hopelessly into the void at what we can’t. (That’s just who we are.) We realized we’re each good at some parts of this and not others, which means we can take a little inspiration. We can protect our time, do the important stuff first and cut ourselves a little slack. And we can always, always recognize that it’s what you do the day after you feel like you really lost momentum that matters most. Episode links and a transcript follow, and that’s pretty much it for this week. Of course, a #WriterTopFive will go out to supporters Monday, and the topic will be a total surprise (heck, it’s a surprise for me too) but we promise it will be practical advice you can use that we probably need too. If you’re a fan of the podcast—if we’re offering, say, two grande mochas worth of advice a month, please consider supporting us for actually less than that. $7 a month, and we promise we’re not coming for your coffee.As always, this episode (and every episode) will appear for all subscribers in your usual podcast listening places, totally free as the #AmWriting Podcast has always been. This shownotes email is free, too, so please—forward it to a friend, and if you haven’t already, join our email list and be on top of it with the shownotes and a transcript every time there’s a new episode. LINKS FROM THE PODCAST#AmReading (Watching, Listening)Jess: The Wilderness Idiot: Lessons from an Accidental Adventurer, Ted AlvarezA Wolf at the Table: A Memoir of My Father, Augusten BurroughsDry: A Memoir, Augusten BurroughsKJ: Toil and Trouble: A Memoir, Augusten BurroughsSarina: Great and Precious Things, Rebecca YarrosWe love our sponsor, Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE, and if we were being coached right now we would probably somehow be managing to pull off better time management, because time is money in more ways than one, and when you invest in your writing career, it’s a lot harder to make excuses. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwritingfor details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.Follow KJ on Instagram for her #BooksThatWon’tBumYouOut series: short reviews of books that won’t make you hate yourself and all humanity.If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.The image in our podcast illustration is by KJ, who totally wants credit.Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)KJ:                                        00:01                    Hey fellow writers, KJ here as we launch into an episode that’s ostensibly about how we get all the things done. Spoiler alert, we don’t, and I’m having a really depressing winter on that front. BUT—I can tell you that one thing that can help you shift into really prioritizing your work is to invest in it, and to make a commitment to another person to work through challenges both on the page and in the calendar. Our sponsor, Author Accelerator, matches writers in both fiction and non-fiction with book coaches who can help you go from stuck to done no matter where you are in the process. Find out more at authoraccelerator.com/amwriting. Is it recording?Jess:                                     00:43                    Now it's recording.KJ:                                        00:44                    Yay.Jess:                                     00:45                    Go ahead.KJ:                                        00:46                    This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I'm supposed to be doing.Jess:                                     00:50                    Alright, let's start over.KJ:                                        00:51                    Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Now, one, two, three. Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting. #AmWriting is the podcast about writing all the things - fiction, nonfiction, pitches, proposals, really as I do say every week. This is the podcast about sitting down and getting your work done. And oh boy, today is it ever the podcast about sitting down and getting your work done!Jess:                                     01:28                    I'm Jess Lahey. I'm the author of the Gift of Failure and I write about kids, and I write about substance abuse, and I write about so many fun things at places like the New York Times, the Atlantic, and the Washington Post. And I'm currently editing my next book, which will be out in 2021.Sarina:                                 01:46                    And I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of 30-odd romance novels. And I have a deadline on March 10th, guys. So this is a great topic for me today.Jess:                                     01:56                    This is so timely because we all have various deadlines that we're working towards right now.KJ:                                        02:04                    Wait, I haven't introduced myself yet, people won't know who I am. I am KJ Dell'Antonia. I am the author of The Chicken Sisters, a novel coming out this summer and How to Be a Happier Parent, which is out in hardback now and will be out in paperback this summer. So big summer for me. Mostly at the moment you'll find me on Instagram, but I'm also a pretty regular contributor to the New York Times and a few other places.Jess:                                     02:30                    You've been getting some really fun book talks lately, Missy Instagram.KJ:                                        02:34                    I have been. It's my series called #BooksThatWon'tBumYouOut and it's all books that won't bum you out. Because I felt like I needed someone to recommend those books to me. And one of my things for the year is start the things you wish other people would do. So there we go.Jess:                                     02:52                    I love it, I absolutely love it. So we should talk about what our topic is for today and why it's our topic for today. Do you wanna talk about that, Sarina?Sarina:                                 03:00                    Well, what we really do all day is try to figure out where does the time go. And we all have children and other responsibilities besides writing.KJ:                                        03:14                    And someone asked us...Jess:                                     03:16                    Yes, someone asked about this in the Facebook group, too. Someone said, 'It's all nice and good when you talk about the broad strokes, but we want the nitty gritty, like how you're actually getting the work done with all the other things you have to do.'KJ:                                        03:31                    Right. And we had this great exchange in there in which we sort of all went back to, well, you know, when our kids were little, things were different. And I sort of ended that exchange thinking, well, and that's true when the kids were little it was harder. And yet as I look - I've actually been keeping track of my week and I'm realizing, okay, when the kids were little, I had a babysitter. So I had dedicated work time. And at the moment I have made the mistake of not, and my work time is looking super pitiful at the moment. So yeah. Let's dig into what we actually do all day and when we do it.Jess:                                     04:15                    Since you've been such a good Doobie and kept track of your time, why don't you go ahead and start?KJ:                                        04:19                    It's been really depressing, guys.Jess:                                     04:20                    You informed me on a text the other day that I was a 10 minute time-waster.KJ:                                        04:27                    You did, you did. You sucked my time away with a tempting text, that granted I should never have looked at. No, one of you start and I'm just gonna do a little ugly math.Jess:                                     04:42                    See, here's the thing. I feel really bad about this because my reality is different. We all have kids that overlap, but I only have two of them. One of them is in college and he's actually even away this semester. He studying away from his college so he's even further away than usual. And then I have a 16 year old kid who is so sort of self-directed and doesn't want much to do with me, except for this week he's been really sick. So this week has actually been a busier week than usual because I've had a lot of interviews, I've had a lot of obligations, phone calls. I've got a bunch of travel coming up and before I do that, I have these conference calls with the organizers. And so it's been a lot of that this week. And there's been a few things I've had to move around because I've had to pick him up from school when he's like 'I can't stay, I real feel horrible.' So this week has been, you know, dicier than usual. But for the most part, I'm sickeningly flexible because except for like these three dogs that get bummed out when I leave the house or when I move around the house. I have a ton of time to get my stuff done. So I'm not very helpful. But when I look at what I was doing when my kids were little, you know, again, it was really different. I didn't have a babysitter, but I did have friends that I traded with a lot. I had neighbors close by and my kids would run off to their house. But on a nitty gritty day to day basis, I'm just gonna make people mad. I sleep in, I'm not a good morning person. I get up and shuffle into my office, which is 10-12 steps from my bedroom. I sit down and I work until I'm done working. And then my 16 year old kid doesn't even come through the door until four o'clock in the afternoon when the bus gets home. And at that point he doesn't actually want a ton to do with me until dinner time. So there you go. I'm sorry.Sarina:                                 06:43                    You know what though, Jess...Jess:                                     06:45                    I feel bad that I'm not contributing.KJ:                                        06:47                    You should not feel bad.Sarina:                                 06:48                    No. First of all, you're not allowed to feel bad. But secondly, I actually do hate you, but not for the reasons that you think.Jess:                                     07:03                    Let me say one other thing, which is that, I am very, very lucky in that I work fast. And I credit a lot of that with working with KJ for the couple of years that I did the column at the New York Times because I didn't use to work so fast, but I'm much faster now. And so when I actually sit down and get focused, I work really, really fast and I think that's been one of the saving graces. Even when I was teaching full time, I'd get up crazy early, get home from school and then sit down to do the other work, which was not only the grading, but also the article writing. And when that happened I was working really fast. So I will add that caveat in that I'm a pretty fast writer.Sarina:                                 07:46                    Well also, the boundless energy whereby this week you're editing a book and also removing wallpaper from a room and then painting another one. Like I just want to like weep when I hear about this.Jess:                                     07:58                    That's my fun time. I mean, I've said it before, weeding or gardening and I can't do that in the winter here in Vermont. So I've been removing wallpaper and repainting a room that I promised I would repaint when we first moved in a year and a half ago. I'm finally getting to it. And that's how I relax.KJ:                                        08:13                    Is that your point of hatred, Sarina?Sarina:                                 08:16                    Sort of. I think it's the boundless energy, but it also might just be focus, because I have as many work hours as Jess does probably. I mean, today alone, my husband has made me two meals and a latte worthy of Italy.Jess:                                     08:51                    What KJ is trying to say is that sometimes having people in your space is difficult.Sarina:                                 08:55                    Yes, it's true. I also have a kid home from school today, so you know, good times, but it's not the hours that I'm fighting against so much, as getting my hands around the business itself all the time. I need to like silence everything and write a couple of hours a day, which is hard when my email inbox is like one of Dante's circles of hell and I literally every day don't know what to do first.Jess:                                     09:25                    That's something that mystifies me about your work flow - is you're getting so many words written, but you're also managing the business of self publishing your books, which blows my mind wide open. So I'm actually really curious and I know a lot about your schedule. I'm really curious as to how a daily workflow works for you.Sarina:                                 09:45                    Well, when it works, it's because I do those words first. And that's been really hard for me lately because of that inbox, and I know that if I look, there'll be some fires to put out in there or people who want answers and it's really hard for me to ignore that, as like a pleaser. As my personality type wants to get back to people right away. But if I do, it's just done. So I've actually had to make silly little rules for myself. Like when I'm drinking my Italian worthy cup of coffee in the morning, I can't look at my email right then. I just can't, because I'll get sucked in. And I'm like, 'Oh, it'll just take a second to answer her and then I'll start to wonder like, Oh, I wonder what the numbers looked like after that latest promotion.' And then I'll go look at them. And it's really hard because that's working as well. Like that's work and it arguably needs to be done. So I'm wrestling the writing and the business all the time. And what really does not get done is like painting a room or even maybe vacuuming it, because that's just got to go. Like when this topic came up, you know, how do you guys get it all done? I immediately thought of JK Rowling and her quote, 'You know, but you don't understand I live in squalor.'Jess:                                     11:10                    Well and you know, on the other hand, again I like vacuuming and so there are certain things that for me - well the reason I like painting, and the reason I like vacuuming, and the reason I like cleaning is that when I'm doing those things, I'm plugged into an audio book. Or, even better I'll drag my laptop into the room where I'm painting and I'll watch a television show, or a movie, which is like crazy luxury. So for me, that ability to turn my brain off and listen to something else while I'm actually getting something done for me is incredibly satisfying. And if you think about it, I was talking to someone about this this morning, I can point at that wall and say, 'Look, I did that. It is done.' Whereas with my edits, no one knows, it's this big morass of words and no one knows what was there and I can't point at anything. It can be tough cause my husband's a physician and he's out there saving people's lives, and my son's out there learning things, and I'm sitting here at home. So that's my thing is being able to point to something and say, 'Look, I cleaned that today.' at least makes me feel like I got something done. Especially when the edits aren't going well.KJ:                                        12:31                    Well maybe my reason for hating you will make you feel better because my reason for hating you is that you are so extremely good at protecting your time. And some of that has to do with the number of kids, and where we live, and the flexibility and stuff like that. But you don't let people dump 47 dentist appointments, and extra carpool, and I really want to get my hair red on the bottom can you drive me to Fairley and pick me up again three hours later. And also, the guy is coming to fix the heat in the bedroom and I feel like you're much better about, 'Yeah, no, sorry people, you can't do that today because I'm editing. And my whole week has basically gone to that/health stuff that I can't deal with.Jess:                                     13:25                    But partly that has to do with the kind of kid I have, too. I mean, I have a 16 year old who basically goes up to his cave time room and hangs out in there and does his stuff in there. And if on the rare occasion he needs a haircut it doesn't take three hours. So no, I get that. But I, on the other hand, I also don't have joiners and even when my kid was a joiner. You know, for example, when Benjamin did cross country, he would tell me which meets to go to cause he knew full well I was not going to all of them. And I think that's important. Then if I knew he said to me, you know, please come to this particular meet, you know that's important to him and then I showing up means something. But yeah, I guess you are right.KJ:                                        14:15                    Well, that's what I'm getting out of this. I really did, I wrote down my time from when I got up until when I sort of stopped working for the day. And Monday I didn't do because I forgot it was Monday, basically. I did work, but I forgot it was Monday cause it was that kind of week. We are recording this during Martin Luther King week. So I forgot Monday, Tuesday I had total writing town of an hour and 50 minutes and total work time of three and a half hours because two kids had dentist appointments and I went to the dentist and then one kid looked at the dentist and I think I'm going to barf and the dentist said, 'You sit over there and don't touch anything.' So I ended up even having to reschedule that kid's dentist appointment in a burst of true inefficiency cause to me if you don't take at least two people to the doctor or dentist at a time, you've completely blown it. I sort of came home and I did (I mean props to me, I'm going to take this one) I do write first. I write first almost no matter what, after the things that I have been unable...Jess:                                     15:24                    And you write outside the house, too.KJ:                                        15:26                    No, I do sometimes. Yeah.Jess:                                     15:29                    You're so good at that, though.KJ:                                        15:30                    So that's what I'm looking at is like, okay, I had an hour and 50 minutes of writing time and total work time of three and a half hours. Because carpool, because I made dinner, because I drove someone to hockey, because I took a Spanish lesson. What I'm looking at is what time in there could I have probably gotten back. And the answer is maybe the dentist appointment - and my partner does do a lot of those things. So it just depends. I need to speak up. Carpool I could work harder, because I ended up with carpool every day this week, so I could work harder to make that not happen so well. Cause Wednesday was much the same thing, except they were my doctor's appointments and I can't really do anything about that. I have issues, and I have to go, and then I'm depressed, and that doesn't help. But again, I did come home and I did right first.Jess:                                     16:31                    Actually I want to break in here cause I think listeners need to know something important. When you say carpool it's because - if I still lived where we live, where you live, I would be having to do a lot of that driving because where we live does not have a bus to take the kids to the high school. So there's this requirement of someone to go down a town away and pick up the children. And you know Finn has a bus he can take everyday now, but if I was still living there I would at least once a day have to jump in my car and carve an hour out of my day to go get children.KJ:                                        17:10                    But if I were meaner, I would make the children sometimes do other things. And I've been so much better about this this year, but I could be better still. Like you know, you could go to the library, or in one child's case there is a bus. It doesn't get the child all the way home, but instead of being an hour round trip, it would be a 20 minute round trip. But the child doesn't want to take the bus. And part of me is like, well, once I'm in the car for 20 minutes, I might as well pick all the other children up. And that's how I get stuck with carpool all the time. And then I have a sick kid and other people had sick kids and that stuck me with carpool all the time. This is not been a good week, but it is sort of forcing me to go, 'How am I contributing to this not being a good week?' And some of that is saying yes to things that I could either pack into all the same time or just say, 'I'm sorry. You're going to have to sit at the library for two hours until your dad's ready to come home.' I could do that. I could do it more. I do it some.Sarina:                                 18:20                    Well, I have found and it's a little lesson that I keep learning over and over again. That even when I think I'm paying attention to these details and getting my hands around this. Sometimes, in fact, usually, there's more attention I could be paying because the answer's in there somewhere. You know, I knew going into January that I needed to get words first and I wanted to get it, and then I was not getting it, and I would end up getting my sticker at like 10:30 at night, having sat down to work sort of at 7:30 in the morning. So obviously, lots of slippage going on there. And I really had to say, okay, why, why does this keep happening? It's not because we're not smart enough to get this job done. It's something is blowing us up every day. And it was me going into my inbox, just for something quick.KJ:                                        19:24                    Yeah, that's killer.Jess:                                     19:27                    It's Twitter for me.KJ:                                        19:28                    I agree. You can't do that. I am actually so resolute about this. So onto this morning, when I didn't have a doctor, or a dentist, or anything, and in theory I would have been back home and sitting at my desk at 8:15 ready to write. Except that when I went out at 7:30 to feed the mini ponies, we were startling one mini pony short of a pair. That's not normal. There should be two. So I sort of followed the evidence, and looked around, and fortunately there was not a mini pony laying and hurt anywhere. He had broken through the fence and burst down and headed down to our barn. So, I had to stop, take the child to school, and then I had to come back, repair the fence, strip the wires, rewire the fence, go down, get both the ponies again, because in the interval the other pony had gone down to the barn and put them back. So, at that point I kinda gave up on the week.Jess:                                     20:32                    I don't know, if you had been Sarina, you could've been dictating your book the entire time you were doing all this work. Cause it appears that Sarina's getting her words in through alternate means recently, which is also just infuriating to me. I mean inspirational, yet infuriating.Sarina:                                 20:52                    It doesn't really work quite like that, Missy.Jess:                                     20:56                    I'm just impressed by the whole process, cause it's something that I just haven't been able to do and I'm just impressed. That's all.Sarina:                                 21:14                    I don't actually dictate the prose of my book, much. Instead, when I need to work out what happens next in a book, like I do my pre-writing this way. You know, so I'm walking around Lebanon while someone's having a violin lesson saying like, 'And then he has to run into her in this place and it's awkward because of this thing and then...'. You know, but it's not words that I can save.Jess:                                     21:40                    I think actually what I enjoy most is the image of you all bundled up talking to yourself as you walk around high school track in another town, talking about the plot of your book. I enjoy that image very, very much.Sarina:                                 21:58                    Well, good. But it really helps.KJ:                                        22:03                    I mean cause one of the things I gain from sitting down and doing this thing where I sort of every half an hour wrote down what I did and how many words I ended up with - was that actually doesn't take me that long to get a fairly large amount of words. I wrote 2,700 words in two and a half hours today. But part of that is because I had pre-written, a little of it I pulled out of an old draft and was able to drop in. And this was all pictured. Like I knew what was going to happen. I knew what they were going to say to each other. I knew who the people were, I knew what I was doing. So I was both sort of heartened and disheartened by how little actual time it would probably take me to finish the draft. And yet how slowly I am accomplishing it.Sarina:                                 22:55                    You know what though, when I worked on Wall Street, we had a daily profit and loss. Everyday you would have a P and L and the boss would walk around at the end of the day, and look at everybody, and you would say up 25 grand or down 10 grand or up 50 grand. And then every few months you would have like a career day. You would be able to look at the boss and say, 'I made $700,000 today.' And then you would walk away after that and get your overpriced glass of wine or whatever and think, what if I just came to work on those days?KJ:                                        23:32                    What if I just wrote bestsellers?Sarina:                                 23:34                    Yeah, but that's the thing about your 2,700 words in two and a half hours. Like the stars and moon were in perfect alignment for you to get that. And that's why I look so carefully at what is my average take over time? Because you can't put that pressure on yourself all the time. Like just because your day theoretically has two and a half hours in, it doesn't mean you're going to end up with 2,700 keepers.Jess:                                     23:59                    What's been really noticeable about that, Sarina, is that this month I have worked every single day on my editing and there've been some days that I haven't worked a long, long time. I've been having some of those brain cramps that KJ talks about sometimes where she's like, 'Ow it hurts. I want to go do something else.' And I feel like I'm wrestling my brain to stay on the page, but just the fact that I worked every single day means I think I'm going to hit my deadline at the end of this month. Or at least I'm going to come within a couple of days if I go over. And I think that just comes down to the fact that even if I had a couple of really slow days or low work sticker days, that they're all there and that something got done every single day. And that's really helping me more than I thought it would. I thought, you know, Oh my God, this is going to be a grind. I'm going to have to sit down for six hours a day this month to get it done. And that hasn't been the case. I just have to sit down every day.Sarina:                                 24:58                    Yeah. And you have to forgive yourself when you can't. Like I'm finding myself in the odd position with the book that I'm working on now that I know a lot about how it ends, but it turns out that the beginning was a little bit mysterious to me. Which never happens, it's usually the opposite. And so I've been so frustrated with myself about not knowing how to get to that point in the future. And you can't rush that cogitation time. So I could tell you all my tricks for writing books in the passenger seat of the car while the kid is doing his karate. But it doesn't matter if I'm not ready to like spit out chapter four.KJ:                                        25:44                    Agreed.Jess:                                     25:45                    I have been noticing that you mentioned earlier that it's been harder for you to get your words done every day. And I have been noticing that your text with the word stickers coming in later in the day than it usually does.Sarina:                                 25:56                    Yeah. That's cause I'm spending the whole day thinking, 'But why are we doing this in chapter four?' And trying to move the steering wheel in ways that it doesn't want to move. But anyway, that happens. And when I know what I'm doing, then I really just have to sit there and let it happen. Like at the end of our podcast we talk about what books we've read and I won't have one today because I finally figured out some stuff about chapter four and I don't want to walk away.KJ:                                        26:27                    You're reading your own book, in your head.Jess:                                     26:29                    I'm actually about to have to do that again just to get the big picture because I'm at the point in editing where I'm trying to drop in a few pieces here and there and when I do that without going back through the whole book, I end up repeating myself. Like not even realizing that I already said that. Or you know, this feels so brilliant right now. Oh, that's because I already wrote this entire section and it was 20 pages ago. I think it's so hard for that reason, though. I think it's so hard to get back in any kind of flow because you're trying to dip into something that you wrote six months ago. And that's what's proving really mentally challenging for me. Cause I've now made that mistake a couple of times. Writing something that I realize is two paragraphs before. But what I'm actually doing right now is a fun thing (I say fun sarcastically). So in books by big publishers that are not academic books, you have to do this thing at the end called key phrase call-out where you go back and you find a little key phrase and then you go to the end and you give the little key phrase and then you give the reference for the key phrase. And that's what I'm in the middle of doing now. And there really isn't anything more boring than that. Very, very few things anyway.KJ:                                        27:51                    Wait, but that sounds like the kind of thing you would normally have sort of done at the same time.Jess:                                     27:58                    Yes. So I have traditional end notes because I was using that citation manager. Well that's the kind of thing where I can have a movie playing, or I can listen to the BBC's Pride and Prejudice for the 3,000th time while I'm doing that kind of thing. And that makes the process a little bit happier for me.KJ:                                        28:29                    I don't know if we've learned anything, because these fall into the category of, as Sarina said, lessons we just keep learning. But, I'm taking away that I need to protect my time and heck, at least I'm good at not looking at my emails and texts.Jess:                                     28:59                    Actually, KJ, I have to tell you. I actually was being interviewed for something yesterday and I referred to you and I referred to How To Be a Happier Parent because the person was asking me about how she was feeling like her time was just being stolen away from her and how much time her kids were spending in extracurriculars. And I said that one of the most meaningful action points from How To Be a Happier Parent was about talking to your kids about if you commit to this thing, here are the things you're not going to be able to do. And as you went through, I think when one of your kids was thinking about doing an extra sport or something like that. And I said, 'You know, that's one of the things that yes, we have to keep relearning this, but it's also important to talk this through with our kids. If we're going to say, you know, our kid wants to do another team sport, and you say, look, your parent works as a writer and your parent is going to have to drive you back and forth. So let's talk about the things that you won't be able to do with the time. And let's talk about the things that are going to be difficult for me to do with my time.' And I don't think that means we're selfish. I think that means that we're teaching our kids that it's important to value their time as well. And that was sort of the point I made to the journalist and when phrased that way, it's about teaching our kids to value our time, allowing ourselves the ability to sequester our most valuable bits of time for the work that we want to do the most. And that just means we're taking ourselves seriously as professionals. So that's my big takeaway. I'm giving everyone permission to tell their kids that they can't do another team sport because they have to be able to get the words written. There you go. Well and I also like Sarina's point about having small rules about the coffee. I happen to have small rules. My rule is the opposite of hers. I'm allowed to sit at my desk and have breakfast and my coffee while I look at Twitter, but as soon as my breakfast is gone, I have to shut down Twitter and get to work.KJ:                                        30:57                    Having these little practices is important. For me it's basically no phone till I take kids to school, because I just will get derailed so easily by a work text, or a work email, or something. Our mornings are so calibrated that five minutes later is a problem. So that's one and I didn't think about that anymore. And then no email until after I've got the words done. That's another one I don't think about anymore. And it's a little bit of a luxury. I don't have an editor. If there's something I really needed to check, I would, but I don't have to. So, I'm used to those I wasn't giving myself credit for those.Jess:                                     31:41                    One other small thing that also works for me is my rule generally is morning is for the words. So if I'm scheduling a dentist appointment, if I'm scheduling an interview, or one of those conference calls I was talking about I say I'm available anytime after noon and just the morning is not available. That's just for the words.KJ:                                        32:02                    Yeah. I just have to cut myself a little more slack this month, for whatever reason, for basically every appointment known to man. I apparently at some point last fall looked at it and said, 'Well, January would be good for that.' With the result that every week is like orthodontist, and hair, and dentist, and chiropractor, and I have all my followups. And that was not a question of choice. That was a question of timing. And just endless, endless stuff. Plus, it's hockey season. It's the only sport that two of the three children that are still at home play. Things will get better when it is no longer hockey season.Jess:                                     32:47                    That was my November, my book will be turned in. So November is just wide open, schedule all the things. And I paid, man, I paid in November. That was tough.KJ:                                        32:59                    That's a lesson I wish that I would learn. But yeah, I don't know. I mean they gotta do those things sometimes. It wouldn't be any better in February. I don't know if it's better to mash them all, but boy it is frustrating to look at a week and go wow, every single morning somebody has an appointment to do something at eight o'clock. Because that's when I make mine. Cause you can get them done, and then you can get them to school, and about half of them my partner takes. But sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.Jess:                                     33:33                    Alright. Sarina, you have anything to add before I move on to the reading stuff that you didn't do?Sarina:                                 33:41                    You know, I actually realized that I did read something. Should I kick off with that?Jess:                                     33:48                    Oh, sure, sure.Sarina:                                 33:49                    I read a beautiful novel named Great and Precious Things by Rebecca Yarros, which comes out in February. And she does angsty, emotional, military heroes in sort of a crossover between romance and women's fiction.Jess:                                     34:08                    Okay. That sounds really good, actually. I read something that I think I'm going to be lending probably to KJ I'm assuming. I picked it up at the Vermont bookshop in Middlebury, Vermont, and it's called The Wilderness Idiot: Lessons from an Accidental Adventurer. It's by Ted Alvarez. And Ted Alvarez is an editor for Backpacker Magazine. And it's really, really fun. They're sort of short pieces so you can dip in and out. And it's really, really funny. It's making me laugh a lot. I really liked it.KJ:                                        34:48                    Well, I read a book that I am going to be passing on to you, Jess. I read Toil and Trouble by Augustan Burrows. And it is so much fun. It's basically what if David Sedaris believed he was a witch and do I need to say anything more than that? Because it's awesome.Jess:                                     35:08                    So Augustan Boroughs, you know, I've been a fan of for a long time. I was just really worried because Wolf at the Table I didn't love, even though he wasn't trying to be particularly funny in that book because it was about his abusive dad. So I was concerned with Toil and Trouble; it sounded a little off the rails to me. Like Augustan Bouroughs is convinced he's a witch, but I'm so glad that you liked it because I wanted it to be good.KJ:                                        35:33                    I do like it and I don't care that Augusten Burroughs is convinced that he's a witch. I enjoy that about Augusten Burroughs. I appreciated that. Yeah, it totally works in this context, I think.Jess:                                     35:47                    Cause as far as I'm concerned, Augusten Burrough's book Dry is my favorite addiction memoir ever. I love that book so much. And I'm an Augusten Burroughs fan, so yeah.KJ:                                        36:02                    Alright, well that's our episode. What we really do all day and today we spent about an hour recording this. I spent the preceding hour prepping tomorrow's episode fully. That's the other thing about actually tracking what you do is you end up with little notes that say things like, 'Wrote Instagram story about pony escape, half an hour.' and then you are forced to realize that seems like nothing - it's not nothing.Jess:                                     36:39                    Well, I actually kept track of how much time it took me to get this one email address that I really needed to work, to work. And it took me over three and a half hours of my time to get an email address to work.KJ:                                        36:53                 

SEASON 2: EPISODE 1Violinist Alicia Svigals talks about the erotics of dishwashing. ABOUT THE GUESTAlicia Svigals is violinist, composer, and co-founder of the Grammy-winning Klezmatics. She has taught and toured with violinist Itzhak Perlman and has composed for the Kronos Quartet, has appeared in stadium shows with Robert Plant and Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin, recorded for John Cale's album Last Day On Earth, and the Ben Folds Five's Whatever and Ever Amen. Her debut album Fidl was instrumentation in reviving the tradition of klezmer fiddling, and in 2018 she released the album Bergovski Suite with jazz pianist Uli Geissendoerfer. Recently she has been commissioned to compose scores for silent films, including The Yellow Ticket and Das Alte Gesetz. More info at https://aliciasvigals.com. ABOUT THE HOST Neil Goldberg is an artist in NYC who makes work that The New York Times has described as “tender, moving and sad but also deeply funny.” His work is in the permanent collection of MoMA, he’s a Guggenheim Fellow, and teaches at the Yale School of Art. More information at neilgoldberg.com. ABOUT THE TITLE SHE'S A TALKER was the name of Neil’s first video project. “One night in the early 90s I was combing my roommate’s cat and found myself saying the words ‘She’s a talker.’ I wondered how many other other gay men in NYC might be doing the exact same thing at that very moment. With that, I set out on a project in which I videotaped over 80 gay men in their living room all over NYC, combing their cats and saying ‘She’s a talker.’” A similar spirit of NYC-centric curiosity and absurdity animates the podcast. CREDITS This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund. Producer: Devon Guinn Creative Consultants: Aaron Dalton, Molly Donahue Mixer: Andrew Litton Visuals and Sounds: Joshua Graver Theme Song: Jeff Hiller Website: Itai AlmorMedia: Justine Lee Interns: Alara Degirmenci, Jonathan Jalbert, Jesse KimothoThanks: Jennifer Callahan, Nick Rymer, Sue Simon, Maddy Sinnock TRANSCRIPTION ALICIA SVIGALS:  I have, over the years, you know, since we got married in 2011, done that thing that I was doing before with "partner" and "my significant" - uncourageously obscured the fact that I'm a lesbian and... NEIL GOLDBERG:  Uncourageously obscure could be the title of my autobiography. NEIL:  Hello, I'm Neil Goldberg and this is SHE’S A TALKER. This is the first episode of season two, and we'll be back with new episodes every Friday. Today I'll be talking with violinist Alicia Svigals. If this is your first time listening, here's the premise of the podcast:  I'm a visual artist, and for the past million or so years, I've been jotting down thoughts, observations, and reflections, often about things that might otherwise get overlooked or go unnoticed. I write them on index cards, and I've got thousands of them. I originally wrote the cards just for me, or maybe to use in future art projects, but now I'm using them as prompts for conversations with some of my favorite artists, writers, performers, and beyond. These days, the cards often start as recordings I make into my phone here and there over the course of the day. Each episode I start with some recent ones. Here they are: NEIL:  The particular Grim Reaper-gloom of a rolly bag coming up behind you. NEIL:  Sleeping naked, but wearing a mouth guard. NEIL:  People in New York get so jovial when they see you carrying a pizza box. NEIL:  I am so excited to have as my guest, my dear friend, Alicia Svigals. Alicia is a world-class violinist who specializes in klezmer. If you’re not familiar with klezmer, here’s Alicia playing at the River To River Festival… [Klezmer music plays]… Klezmer was originally a type of Eastern European Jewish music that then came to the United States and became influenced by jazz. Alicia was one of the founders of the Klezmatics who won a Grammy. She's played with all kinds of fancy people like Itzhak Perlman, John Cale of the Velvet Underground, and Jimmy Page and Robert Plant of Led Zeppelin, which was just a brunch where we listened to Led Zeppelin, which turns out to be a great combination. Here's our conversation. NEIL:  Alicia Svigals. Thank you so much for being in SHE’S A TALKER. We went to college together. We've known each other for more than 30 years, but, um, I do like to ask everyone, I'm about to sit down next to you on a plane. Hey, what do you do? ALICIA:  I'm a violinist and a composer. Uh, I specialize in a kind of traditional East European Jewish music called klezmer music, which, you know, in the past people would be like, "Oh, what?" And now they're like, "Oh yeah, of course I know that." NEIL:  Right, right. It's almost like the way coming out has kind of changed, although maybe without the shame element, or maybe not. ALICIA:  I know that the shame element is there. It's a little apologetic, like I'm a violinist composer, well, not like a classical violinist. ALICIA:  I do this weird thing. NEIL:  Yeah. Yeah. It vaguely reminds me of how my referencing my husband has changed. You know what I mean? When Jeff and I got married, we did kind of make an informal commitment that we would just always use 'husband' as a way to kind of desensitize the world to it. Yeah. If we were going to take advantage of that privilege. NEIL:  Um, but now I, I usually don't think twice about it. ALICIA:  Wow. NEIL:  How about you? ALICIA:  I think about it practically, I mean, absolutely every single time, it always feels weird and awkward and like I'm pretending it's no big deal, and there's a social contract now that of course it's no big deal, and everybody secretly in their mind thinks it's a very big deal. NEIL:  Exactly. ALICIA:  I'm wondering, like, how has their entire vision of me now changed and are they, have they stopped listening to what I'm saying? Cause there's digesting that... NEIL:  Right. When you're meeting someone for the first time and you just drop a "wife." ALICIA:  Yeah, or if I'm in a professional context. NEIL:  For me, I always feel like, to your point, that every time I use "husband", it's a little micro acting exercise. You know? ALICIA:  It's like... NEIL:  It's performing casualness. ALICIA:  Exactly. Like, and everybody knows it's a performance. So the conversation was doing whatever it was doing and it was normal, and all of a sudden we're faced with that moment like, what else are we going to do? We have no choice. Either we're going to perform casualness and feel weird and fake about that, or we're going to, uh, uncourageously obfuscate, or there's a third possibility, which I've seen people do, which is to say like, be sort of transparent about all that, but then you've made a big deal of something perhaps unnecessarily. NEIL:  Right. How has that sounded? Like, "I'm gay and I have a husband." ALICIA:  You know, I'm not even sure, I've seen other people do it and I haven't liked it, so I'm not sure, but it... Yeah, exactly. "I'm gay and I have a husband." NEIL:  All right. Now, another question I like to ask people is, uh, what is something you were thinking about today? ALICIA:  I mean, since I woke up. NEIL:  I'll let you define 'today'. ALICIA:  Okay. Okay. Okay. Cause I don't usually start thinking till about one or two. NEIL:  Oh, okay. ALICIA:  And it's still early. NEIL:  So you haven't thought about anything yet? ALICIA:  Not very much, but some - okay, some of the things I'll tell you, I thought, um... I hope that Ellen, my wife, hears me doing the dishes because she has told me that turns her on. NEIL:  Do you think she's saying that just as a way to get you to do the dishes? ALICIA:  You know, I have discussed that at length with my therapist and she says, I need to take that literally. NEIL:  Wow, okay. ALICIA:  And all kinds of things turn people on. And that's not even a weird one in her experience here. And hearing all kinds of things from all kinds of people, because, for a lot of people, having the other person do the dishes means they're being taken care of. NEIL:  Oh yeah, totally. ALICIA:  You know, for some people, you know, they want to wear diapers. NEIL:  Exactly. ALICIA:  No, we don't do that. NEIL:  Okay. ALICIA:  So maybe... NEIL:  No judgement if you did though, but, but feeling taken care of doesn't necessarily map directly onto being turned on. Like I feel very taken care of by Jeff often. I guess sometimes that can be a turn on. It lives in a different space though. ALICIA:  Right. ALICIA:  For me too. But apparently there are a lot of people, like it's a very common thing. They won't feel turned on until they feel taken care of. It's really, really separate for me. Like I'm sure it's connected somewhere in there, sometimes in some ways, in some fantasies and so forth. But, um, according to my shrink, who is a genius - NEIL:  Yeah. ALICIA:  And is the smartest person I've ever met. NEIL:  Wow. ALICIA:  Kind of hoping she'll listen to this. NEIL:  Do you want to do the dishes too, while you're at it? ALICIA:  Anyway, I tend to think that my way of thinking and feeling and... My brain is really the right way. And other people's, if it's different, they must be making it up, they must be putting it on. It must be a ploy to get me to do the dishes. And I wrote the quote somewhere, somebody who said, "Everybody's got a weird brain", and I really like it, and I try to remind myself, and everybody's got a weird brain. NEIL:  Absolutely. I love not being in therapy anymore. ALICIA:  Oh you're not in therapy anymore? NEIL:  No. After, after, I think almost 25 years on the dot. ALICIA:  Wow. NEIL:  Um, we terminated like, uh, three or four years ago now, maybe three years. I love it. ALICIA:  Wow. Wow. NEIL:  You don't spend the money and you have the time and you don't have to kind of think about yourself in that same way. NEIL:  You don't have that accountability. ALICIA:  Yeah, the time part I, you know, couldn't relate to. Um, I feel like currently I'm like a snake in the process of getting ready to shed its skin. There's no crisis. Knock wood, you know, cheap too. But I feel like a transformation is going to happen. NEIL:  That's great. ALICIA:  I can't imagine leaving. NEIL:  Although, sorry, not to be a buzzkill, but, um, that's the thing that I'm happy not to have going on for me in therapy, which is the feeling of like, okay, life is just ahead of you. You know what I mean? And, and when I would say this to my therapist, he would be like, that's not the way to be holding this. But I found it hard to avoid that. I mean, toward the end, it, there was an alignment of like the, you know, the me who was in therapy, but also living my life and feeling like this is also my life. ALICIA:  You know, you're right. Like I'm, I am thinking of it as life is going to be so great once the skin - it's very itchy now, but once I've shed the skin. NEIL:  Yeah. ALICIA:  And yeah, that's problematic. And, uh, one day I think I probably would like to no longer be the kind of person who's like talking about themselves and their therapy, which I think is probably boring to most people. NEIL:  Oh, I know. I don't think talking about therapy stops after your - case in point - stops after you're in therapy. Here I am. NEIL:  Alicia, let's look at some of these cards now. Okay. I've picked out some cards, especially for you. Our first card is the diplomacy of saying a child resembles one parent or another. ALICIA:  Oh... NEIL:  You and Ellen are a very specific case of this, if you'd care to share with our podcast audience. ALICIA:  Right. We're a specific case of this, because, um, we each gave birth to one of our sons with the same anonymous donor. They're very much alike in a lot of ways, and they're each very much like each of us, and it's, it's a different case because we're not competing to be the one whose traits appeared more. ALICIA:  It's just a lovely thing to hear that, you know, one of them looks like one of us, um, because it means our genes worked at all. NEIL:  Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Cause I feel very skeptical about whether my jeans would work. ALICIA:  I'm sure they would, Neil. NEIL:  Well, thank you. Isn't it, it always grosses me out when one kid looks powerfully like one of the parents, you know what I mean? It speaks of like their parents fucking in it somehow, it's like a big genetic smear or something like a litter of pups. ALICIA:  There's something like biologically obscene about it. NEIL:  Exactly. Biologically obscene. ALICIA:  Yeah, like an infestation. NEIL:  Exactly. Exactly. ALICIA:  It's like it kind of, impolitely exposes biology too much and it's rude. NEIL:  Exactly, it's like someone flashing you or something. ALICIA:  It's rude. Cause we're supposed to be self-made individuals and we were supposed to have created our own faces. If I didn't have our personalities and which we chose, which we selected using our moral rectitude. NEIL:  We are not bodies. We are pure. You know, in that whole kind of mind. ALICIA:  Ether, mind. Where my, like, Ooh, we must be bodies cause those two completely different people look exactly alike. NEIL:  Oh yeah, exactly. Disgusting. NEIL:  Next card. As soon as I stub my toe, I look for someone to blame. ALICIA:  How did you know that about me? NEIL:  I guess we're similar in that way. Not everyone's that way. ALICIA:  Oh, it is so... When, when the boys were little, one of them, I'm not going to say who, cause you know, it's a little personal. NEIL:  50/50 chance though. Two kids, Ben and Philip. ALICIA:  True. True. NEIL:  If you're listening, this is about one of you. ALICIA:  But I'm respecting your privacy, cause it's just, it's all, you get all the plausible deniability if it's a 50/50 chance. So if he, like, fell, or if he stubbed his toe, like let's say he hurt himself on the floor, he would bang that floor, angry at the floor. NEIL:  When he was a kid? ALICIA:  Yeah, hitting the floor, mad at the floor. He was mad at the object that hurt him. But I absolutely, I stub my toe and I try to think of whose fault was that. Isn't that nutty? NEIL:  Absolutely. It's horrible. Jeff is not like that. ALICIA:  I don't care if they hear it, but my parents are totally... My mom... Mom, I love you. But you know, you're always looking for the blame. And I'm always like, and of course, you know, I'm always trying to blame Ellen, and right? NEIL:  Right? Yeah, of course. Proximity. ALICIA:  And it all seems like completely reasonable to me until I notice I do it even when I stub my toe. And then it's like, wait a minute... NEIL:  I mean, I guess it begs the question, what are the consequences of there not being - ALICIA:  Someone to blame - NEIL:  There's no fault. ALICIA:  Man. NEIL:  What, I mean, in a way, that's a beautiful moment somehow. I think it's also like a very scary moment. ALICIA:  Frightening, out of control, random. NEIL:  Right. But also free somehow. I think? I don't know, whatever part of the brain that assigns blame to discharge that. ALICIA:  Perfectible. Cause if the person would only not. Then no one would stub their toe again if they'd only get it right. NEIL:  Next card. I know you, at a certain point in your life, were a subway musician. I'm going to say something provocative. ALICIA:  Okay. NEIL:  We don't need subway musicians. ALICIA:  They need us. NEIL:  I don't care. We don't need, we don't need buskers of any sort anywhere. We don't. ALICIA:  What about parkour? NEIL:  Parkour, they're doing it for themselves. You mean where they rebound off buildings and shit like that? ALICIA:  No, they do it in the subway car and they ask for money. NEIL:  Oh, Showtime. Nope. Not that neither. That neither. I'm more disposed to that particular narrative than to like the heartfelt  acoustic singer or really anything, but I'm just ready to come down with a full, like no buskers anywhere. ALICIA:  Uh huh. Well, you know, did you feel that way 30 years ago? NEIL:  I think I might have. ALICIA:  Really? NEIL:  Yeah. Because for me, the subway is enough. The subway, everything is enough. ALICIA:  More than enough. NEIL:  It's more than enough. Absolutely. This street is enough. The Plaza is enough, and I understand that that's proposing a separation between the Plaza and the musician or the musician and the subway. NEIL:  Actually, up until very recently, I was like not into putting headphones in when I was on the street. It's like, the street will do just fine. Now, by the way, I do put the headphones in. ALICIA:  To escape the street or cause you're bored without them? NEIL:  I think it's for the same reason that I like not being in therapy. It's like I'm going to choose not to use this time to think. Or my thinking will be directed by whatever I'm listening to, whether it's a podcast or music. So I think I always felt that, yeah. ALICIA:  I always loved street performers. They made me feel like the joy of humanity. Oh my God. NEIL:  Really? If anything could make me change my mind, which it can't, it would be knowing something like that, like that makes other people happy, I - maybe it's my own narcissism or solipsism or whatever ism. It's like, I just assume everyone feels a slight variation on what I feel. I mean, I feel like at best people are like, interested. Um, I didn't know that, like it's actively bringing joy to people like you. ALICIA:  I would go out looking for them. I mean - NEIL:  Wow! ALICIA:  Partly it was youthful, naivete and enthusiasm, but it was like I would love to go to Central Park, and I would like, uh, street performer hop. I'd go from one to the next. That was my idea of an exciting , you know, adventurous Sunday. NEIL:  Holy shit! My God. Who the fuck knew? ALICIA:  Yeah. Um, and I would love, like if I had friends visiting from another country or city - to show off New York, I would show off all these different performers. NEIL:  I might've  done that, possibly, possibly. Not go out of my way, but if I'm going into a subway platform and there's the street musician, I could kind of inwardly feel like, Oh, I live in a city where we have street musicians. That. Well, at the same time, privately feeling like - ALICIA:  Like stop! NEIL:  Yeah, enough. We don't need it. ALICIA:  You know, in the seventies and eighties, it was new and I would love to see like a P pop player and then, you know, the Pam pipe players. NEIL:  I just feel like the pan pipe, if I may, I just feel like pan pipes only have one emotional register, which is wistful. You know?. And I'm not into wistful ever, ever, ever. You don't need wistful. What are you wistful for? What are you wistful about? Come on. ALICIA:  I'm wistful in advance for the things I have now, but might not in the future. NEIL:  I'm something else about them, but not wistful. ALICIA:  Do you like Brahms, and Dvorak, and romantic chamber music? NEIL:  I don't really know it. ALICIA:  You probably heard it and never pursued it because it was wistful. NEIL:  Next card. Male singers showcasing their vulnerability by singing falsetto. ALICIA:  Ooh. I always thought of it as supreme confidence, but showcasing your vulnerability is confidence. Isn't it? NEIL:  But I feel like it's almost performing vulnerability. ALICIA:  I just am remembering something, which I remember all the time for some reason. When I was in junior high, ninth grade I think, a friend of mine, a female friend... I said something like, Do know this guy? He's got like longish feathered - okay, this is the 70s - reddish straight feathered hair. He, he was just walking by the principal's office singing, you've got a cute way of walking, which is the BG's and it's falsetto, right? NEIL:  It's Leo Sayer. ALICIA:  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. It's the era, but yeah, right. It's not the BG's. And he was singing that and, and she said, Ooh, sounds cute. Like the guy sounds cute. And that was a moment I thought, I don't understand what girls see in boys. I was like, why is that cute? I'm so perplexed what my female friends think is cute and sexy about boys. You know? That probably was a clue. NEIL:  And was that the moment you became a lesbian? ALICIA:  Listen, it was not. I was just like, I don't get heterosexuality. I didn't really know there was an alternative at that point. So. I don't get heterosexuality. I'm not empathetic. I expect heterosexuals to get homosexuality. I can't, I don't get like, it's so hard for me. NEIL:  You're pretty extreme, pretty extreme lesbian. ALICIA:  Not, not in entire, it shouldn't entirely be hard because I think on some level, you know, I'm not a zero or a 10 on the Kinsey spectrum, but like I always have to like do the mental exercise very deliberately of, yes, this heterosexual couple really does love each other. They're not just making it up. Yes, women really do fall in love with men and cry themselves to sleep, and you know, go into deep depressions of if it doesn't go right and they obsess over them and you know, just like I would do with women, like it's so hard. It's so hard for me. I have to believe that truly. NEIL:  And the emotional part is hard for you to believe. So it's not like the idea of like heterosexual people have sex. ALICIA:  No, that's easy. NEIL:  Interesting. The idea that the affective, the emotional part, is hard to believe, that they love each other. ALICIA:  That, that they're out of control, you know, in love with each other or that, I mean, I love men. Like I love you, my friend. NEIL:  I love you too, Alicia. ALICIA:  And I love my sons to infinity, you know. And I, I, they're, they're like no beings I love more in the world than these two males and not despite their maleness. It's what they are. You know, like I love everything about them, and it's very easy for me in a way to imagine anybody being in love with them, of course. Who wouldn't be in love with my sons. But, when I consider, it's mostly movies and literature, it's like, really? NEIL:  I find it really refreshing. You really have carved yourself a bit of freedom within heteronormativity to be able to like, not believe in heterosexuality in the way that you're talking about. ALICIA:  Do you make an analogy, like do you identify with the woman in a heterosexual couple or do you have no trouble imagining that, that romantic love? NEIL:  I don't. No, super don't. I mean, sometimes I have more trouble imagining it in a homosexual relationship, I think. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a, that's a bigger problem for me, probably, even though I'm in love with Jeff and, you know, and, uh. ALICIA:  You see? Everybody has a weird brain. NEIL:  Oh, okay. We can agree to that. I love it. Okay, Alicia. Let's do bad over good. What's the X you would take a bad of over a Y you would  take a good of? ALICIA:  You know what, even this is a loaded question, because what I've been thinking about a lot lately is like I have a hard time recreating, basically. I'm such a nerd. It's like... NEIL:  You want edification. ALICIA:  I know, and part of it is sincere, like I do enjoy the learning, learning languages and reading, but, it seems to me like I would take a bad history book over a good mystery book because I don't know how, I don't know how to have fun, you know? ALICIA:  And that's how I live anyway. I'm trying to like explore that, but I'm just noticing. If I have some free time, it's like, Ooh, now I could practice my scales and go back to Duolingo where I'm working on Hebrew and Japanese right now, and it's like, you know, Ellen, my wife is like, Oh, now I could finish a season of the Bachelor. ALICIA:  But, I think I'd rather read a badly-written edifying thing than watch the most hilarious season of the Bachelor. NEIL:  Wow. You're a paradox, or not a paradox. It's opposite day for Alicia Svigals. That's great though. I hear that. I think that's what gives the pleasure to doing the TV thing. It's the release from the imperative for edification. NEIL:  There's just a certain pleasure that becomes available when your intention is different than to be eating your spinach on some level. You know what I mean? ALICIA:  All I do is frigging eat my spinach. I'm trying to stop that. NEIL:  On that note, Alicia Spiegels, thank you so much for being on SHE’S A TALKER. ALICIA:  Thank you for having me. This was like, just like having coffee with you, with an engineer present, very discreet and like, I totally forgot that we were recording. NEIL:  Thank you. NEIL:  Cut. NEIL:  Huge thank you for listening to this episode of SHE’S A TALKER. If there's someone else you think might like it, I'd love it if you'd share it with them and if you have a couple of seconds to rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, it really helps people find this during season one, a number of folks let me know they had their own responses for some of the cards. NEIL:  If you have thoughts you'd like to share, we'd love to feature them too. Write to us at shesatalker@gmail.com or on Instagram @shesatalker. This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund. Devon Guinn produced this episode. Andrew Litton mixed it. Molly Donahue and Aaron Dalton are our consulting producers. Justine Lee handles social media. NEIL:  Our card flipped beats come from Josh Graver, and my husband Jeff Hiller sings the theme song you're about to hear. Thanks to all of them and to my guest, Alicia Svigals, and to you for listening. JEFF HILLER:  SHE’S A TALKER with Neil Goldberg. SHE’S A TALKER with fabulous guests. SHE’S A TALKER it's better than it sounds. Yeah.

I would imagine that suffering is not a very popular topic amongst most churches today but suffering is a vital and important part of every believer's life and It should not and cannot be a topic that is left out of our Biblical thinking. Suffering comes in many forms and our heart today is to discuss the biblical view of suffering and how it is a powerful mindset and tool in our lives.Download Free Thinghttp://marriageprayerchallenge.com/Topic NOTESI have bee systematically teaching through 1st peter and last week we got to chapter 4:1-Devotional - what are we learning from the WordRomans 8 "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God. 3 For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry."Suffering as a believerCease from sinDepriving my flesh is sufferingBeing in human nature and submitting to God is telling your flesh noChoosing to walk in the SpiritUniversal doctrine sufferingRomans 8 to explain whoever suffers … putting away of flesh is causing our flesh to suffer“want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry.We have been freed from the “want to do” God gives us new desires new cravings. As we walk in our new selves it growsDefine:Sensuality - Not just sexualTHE WORLDLY DEFINITION IS PURELY SEXUAL.THE BIBLICAL USE is: unbridled lustLiving for pleasure of every sense - pleasing the 5 senses rather than pleasing GodFROM WIKIPEDIA: Hedonism is a school of thought that argues pleasure and suffering are the only components of well-being. Ethical hedonism is the view that combines hedonism with welfarist ethics, which claim that what we should do depends exclusively on what affects the well-being individuals have. Ethical hedonists would defend either increasing pleasure and reducing suffering for all beings capable of experiencing them, or just reducing suffering in the casePassions - Not just what are you passionate about in lifeBeing controlled by our emotions and serving our emotions vs pleasing God - affected by sensuality in that when we are not feeling good or something not pleasing instead of suffering we let our emotional response dictate our actions - flesh isn't getting what it wants so our choice is to suffer in the flesh and choose to walk in the spirit or suffer in the spirit and walk in flesh they are opposedDrunkenness - Not just being drunk from intoxicationOvertaken by a substance or something out side your bodyProverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise."Ephesians 5:18 "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,"Removal of natural function - (Inhibition) ConscienceOrgies - Not just a sexual experienceOverindulgenceGiving into your flesh never satiated never enoughEcclesiastes 1:8 "All things are full of weariness; a man cannot utter it; the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing."HISTORICAL "secret rites used in the worship of Bacchus, Dionysus, and other Greek and Roman deities, celebrated with dancing, drunkenness, and singing."Drinking parties - Not just drinking at a party or hosting one intentionallyIt is inviting others to partake with you in all of the aboveNo one likes to feel the weight of shame or guilt alone so if theyMisery loves companyApproval so you can keep doing itWhy godly fellowship is so importantLawless Idolatry - All of this ends with self-worshipHow I feel what I want what I pursueOpposite of dying to self or taking up crossEach one shows the progress of worshipping self vs the CreatorPrayerDear Lord,Thank you for your word and how it cuts us to the heart. Thank you for teaching us through your word. We pray your word would continue to transform us as we learn it and choose to walk out all that you command us to. We pray we would be people who recognize parts of our hearts that need to change, sin that needs to be repented of, motivations that are not pure, and actions that do not reflect your ways for the purpose of repentance and reconciliation and growth. May your will be done in us and through us. May your light shine brightly through our marriages as we encourage one another to draw closer to you.In Jesus’ name, amen! READ TRANSCRIPT- [Aaron] Hey, We're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. - [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. - [Aaron] And today we're going to talk about why suffering is good for us. Welcome to the Marriage After God Podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. - [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. - [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. - [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade - [Aaron] And so far we have four young children. - [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. - [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. - [Jennifer] We believe the Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. - Love. - And power. - [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. - [Jennifer] Together. - [Aaron] Thank for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. - [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. - [Aaron] Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the Marriage After God Podcast. - [Jennifer] Hi. - [Aaron] We love you guys. I just wanna say, the first episode of this season of this year, I think it got up to number 32 or 33 on the charts in iTunes. So that's all because of our listeners. - [Jennifer] Thank you guys! - [Aaron] Downloading all of these episodes, your guys rock, I just wanna say thank you. - [Jennifer] Hopefully they liked it, you know, thought it was a good episode to kick off the year with. - [Aaron] Yeah, if you liked it, share about the episode, take a screenshot of it, post it on Instagram, Facebook, tag us in it, we love seeing those. - [Jennifer] @MarriageAfterGod. - [Aaron] And we might even share about your post on our Instagram account. - [Jennifer] That'd be awesome. Okay, so Aaron, why don't you just give a little update where you at, how's your week, what's going on? - [Aaron] I think we talked about it last time. I'm starting to get up earlier. For a while I've been getting up around 5:30 and going to the gym, I've been doing that for a couple years now and recently I told you, Jennifer, that I wanted to get up even earlier. - [Jennifer] I was shocked actually. - [Aaron] To give myself an hour in the morning to get in the Word 'cause remarkably if I don't purpose to do it, it doesn't happen. So I figured what's the best way to do that. - [Jennifer] Or your amount of time spent in it wasn't as much. - [Aaron] Yeah, and so I figured the best thing to do would be get up earlier. - [Jennifer] Okay, so now what does your morning routine look like? - [Aaron] So I've been getting up a four, my alarm goes off at four, and then I hit snooze a couple times. I've been getting up around 4:20, 4:30. - [Jennifer] Now, the first time you did it, I was woken up because usually you sneak out of the house pretty quietly. - I turned the light on. - You turned every light on. - [Aaron] I didn't turn every light on. - [Jennifer] It was so bright and then I was up at 4:30. - [Aaron] What the problem was is I forget to set all of my stuff out the night before and I couldn't find anything. - You weren't prepared. - I wasn't prepared. You should always be prepared. If you wanna have a good morning routine. - Good marriage. - Oh. - Oh. - [Aaron] If you wanna have a good morning routine and a good marriage, prepare, put your stuff out, get everything ready that you're gonna be grabbing, so you don't have to look for it and scavenge. - [Jennifer] And I'm just using it, I'm not even mad about it. I went back to bed. - [Aaron] I mean I'm only a few days into it and it hasn't been terrible because I go to the gym now earlier and I'll say this, I really enjoyed going to Starbucks and sitting down, there's no one there, and getting into the Word, that was awesome. And also I started back up doing my intermittent fasting. - [Jennifer] You did that for a while like a year ago. - [Aaron] Yeah, and I only stopped because I was just trying to do something different, get more calories. But I'm going back to it because I feel like I got too much calories. - [Jennifer] Okay. - [Aaron] I really like intermittent fasting. And if you don't know what intermittent fasting is go look it up, it's pretty cool. - [Jennifer] Why don't you just explain real quick briefly what you mean. - [Aaron] Essentially you fast for 16 hours and then you have an eight hour window of eating. Essentially you just miss breakfast. - [Jennifer] I was gonna say most of us fast throughout the night, but this is more intentional, don't have that before-bedtime snack or anything. - [Aaron] Yeah, I'll usually not eat from seven o'clock until 11 or noon the next day. Which is not always easy. - [Jennifer] You also fit in those calories at lunch and dinner 'cause you work out, they know you do CrossFit, you lift heavy weights so you need that energy. - [Aaron] Yeah, I need enough. But it also does help me maintain how much I'm eating and it also makes me think about what I'm eating so I eat better instead of just spreading all those calories out. Anyways I've gotten back into that and kinda liking it. - [Jennifer] Awesome, very cool. Okay you guys, we also wanna encourage you to sign up right now for the Marriage Prayer Challenge if you have not done that yet. It's really awesome. Aaron, how many couples have already joined? - [Aaron] Almost 30,000 couples. There's actually a number counter on the sign up page, and it's a real number counter. I didn't make it up or faked it, it's actually counting people that sign up. - [Jennifer] Okay, so you just go to MarriagePrayerChallenge.com you can sign up for the husband version or the wife version and what do they get? - [Aaron] They're gonna get a email every day around the time that they signed up, giving them a prompt and a reminder to pray for their spouse. - [Jennifer] Awesome, come on you guys, go sign up, it's awesome. - [Aaron] Yeah, so it's MarriagePrayerChallenge.com. Completely free, just give us your email and your name and boom, you'll start getting those emails every day for 30 days. - [Jennifer] So today's topic is on why suffering is good for us. And we're not just talking about physical suffering or sickness or things like that, but we're gonna get into, well we're just gonna get into something that you spoke on recently Aaron that really, really moved me because I love it when you can look at Scripture and see it a different way, I need that help sometimes, someone else coming in and going, "Hey, look at this, this is awesome." So I just wanna dig in. So this is kind of like a devotional style episode. - [Aaron] Yeah, Jennifer and I came up with this idea to do one devotional focused episode every month and so this will be that one. And the topic is something I actually taught on this last Sunday. And you said, "Hey, we should "do an episode on that teaching." So that's what we're gonna do. We'll talk about stuff I brought up from Scripture and then you might have some questions for me, but it's pretty cool, and it's on a very small section of Scripture. - [Jennifer] I'll say this, one reason that I love that you're my husband is that you teach me and I love that. I love that you can look at Scripture and teach me from it and so I'm excited about this episode because I feel like you're gonna have the opportunity to teach others with the same impact that you've had in my life just over this one Scripture. - [Aaron] Well thank you, that's awesome. - [Jennifer] Keep it up, Aaron. - [Aaron] I wanna emphasize that my hope and prayer is that whenever I'm teaching the Word of God that it's not my opinion, not my own flavor of things, but that I'm just trying to clearly teach what the Word of God is saying. So I hope that's what I'm doing right now. - [Jennifer] Yeah, it's good. - [Aaron] So I'll just kick it off that the section of Scripture that we're going to be discussing is mainly from I Peter, chapter four. And it's only the first four verses, which is gonna be the chunk of what we're talking about. And it doesn't sound like a lot of Scripture, but there's actually a lot in here. We're also gonna dig into Romans eight, and that has a little bit more, so there's still a lot of reading. - [Aaron] There's a lot of Scripture to help give context to these few lines of text. So are we gonna start out with you reading I Peter? - Yeah. - Like give 'em just the context of what we're going to be talking about? - [Aaron] So it's actually verses one through three, I'm gonna read it right now, starting at verse one. "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, "arm yourselves with the same way of thinking. "For whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, "so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh, "no longer for human passions, but for the will of God. "For the time that is past suffices for doing "what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, "passions, drunkenness, orgies, "drinking parties, and lawless idolatry." - [Jennifer] Okay, so before we jump into these set of Scriptures, can you just expand a little bit about when it comes to doctrine and universal doctrine? - [Aaron] Yeah, so I start off this teaching actually on Sunday just explaining how when we come up with doctrine, which are the fundamental things that a believer should walk in, teach. These are the things that are core, doctrines in the Word of God. A doctrine, in order for it to be a doctrine, it's gotta be universal. You can't pull something from Scripture and say, "This is doctrine, but it doesn't apply "in Iran, it doesn't apply in Africa, "it doesn't apply in the suburbs." - [Jennifer] Right, or just certain groups of people. Or certain churches. - [Aaron] Right, so if we interpret or pull things from Scripture that isn't universally applied when taught then it's gotta be interpreted through universal doctrine. So that you can't just pull that and say, "Well, that's doctrine." And one example of this would be the prosperity gospel, this idea that God wants every single person to be wealthy, and perfectly healthy, which isn't backed up with Scripture at all. - [Jennifer] We also don't see it in real life. - [Aaron] Yeah, you don't see it played out. There's people all over the world that are not wealthy or healthy, but they love the Lord, God uses them, this is reality on both sides. We see Scripture, like in Ecclesiastes that God gives rain to the evil and the good, evil and the righteous. So there are certain things that he has a certain level of blessing on every person, he gives breath, he gives the sunlight, he gives rain, he gives food, sustenance, regardless of how they are. So the prosperity gospel in the sense of God wants you to prosper financially and with possessions doesn't work universally. But what does work, and this is where I ended off was the universal doctrine of suffering. Without suffering there is no salvation. Christ learned obedience through the things that he suffered. He says that believers will suffer. - [Jennifer] Which kicks us off for this verse that you read, which I don't know if you wanna read it again. - [Aaron] Yeah, it says, "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh," it doesn't say suffered in the spirit, he suffered in the flesh. It says, "Arm yourselves with this same way of thinking." - [Jennifer] Not just some of you, not just you over there in the corner, arm yourself. - [Aaron] Yeah, it tells every believer to arm themselves with this way of thinking of understanding the suffering of Christ. - [Jennifer] And the suffering of the flesh. - [Aaron] And the suffering in the flesh, which we're gonna get into. So when I say doctrine, this idea that suffering is a doctrinal teaching. We cannot subtract it from Scripture, we cannot subtract it from the Christian life. We cannot say, "Yeah, that's good, but only for Christ, "and then he doesn't want his children to suffer." He says, "If I suffered, you will also suffer. "They hated me, they're gonna hate you." These are all things that the Bible teaches and no matter where you go in the world, it doesn't matter where you live it should be something that is taught and understood by the believer this idea, this doctrine of suffering. But there's many types of suffering. And what we wanna talk about right now is what is this talking about. What am I arming myself when realizing Christ suffered? What's the weapon that I'm using? And what it is is an understanding of what suffering is for the believer and why it's so good for us in the varying aspects. 'Cause the first thing we think of probably is suffering, massive pain or loss, which is definitely a form of suffering. But really what suffering is at the base level is our flesh-- - Dying to ourselves, yeah. - Yeah, dying. That's what suffering is. When Jesus says, "Take up your cross and follow me," the cross is the instrument of death of your flesh, your body. You put a body on it and it dies there. And so suffering in the sense that we're gonna talk about is not just this overtly physical suffering. It's telling our flesh no, that's suffering. And as we go through this scripture, we'll see that more and more. But that's what we wanna get the believer, everyone listening to understand is we shouldn't be running from suffering. We shouldn't fear the idea that our flesh is gonna endure some sort of discomfort and pain and that we're not gonna always get what we want and we're gonna have to tell ourselves no and these are all forms of telling our flesh no, it's suffering. The body suffers when it doesn't get what it wants, that's suffering. When you feel pain, it's something that the body doesn't want, which is why you get that pain signal saying, "Hey, this is not good, stop it." - [Jennifer] Right, we really hope that this episode is encouraging to you guys and gives you a fresh perspective of how suffering is good for us, especially in context to our sin nature and the suffering of our flesh. - [Aaron] Which is the exact purpose of this. Of putting away that sin nature and having the spirit of God win and not the flesh. - [Jennifer] Do you wanna jump in to Romans eight? - [Aaron] Yeah, 'cause Romans eight gives us a perfect context for the second part of the scripture that says "Arm yourselves with the same way of thinking." Right, so we realize that Christ suffered in the flesh, we can have the same way of thinking of recognizing the suffering of our flesh is a weapon against something. And it says, "For whoever has suffered "in the flesh has ceased from sin." And this can be taken very literally, which it should be, I think because if we have perfectly suffered the way Christ has we would have perfectly ceased from sin because once we're dead and gone with God there's no more sin in us. But we're in the flesh, so it says, "Whoever suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin," and I think Romans eight perfectly clarifies what this is saying, and it says this in Romans eight, verse one, "There is therefore now no condemnation "for those who are in Christ Jesus." First and foremost believer, believe this. "There is therefore now no condemnation "for those who are in Christ Jesus. "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free "in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." So what has set you free from the law of sin and death? It's Christ and his Spirit, right? It says, "For God has done what the law, "weakened by our flesh, could not do. "By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh "and for sin he condemned sin in the flesh "in order that the righteous requirement of the law "might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to "the flesh, but according to the Spirit." - [Jennifer] I feel like you should reiterate that last part. - [Aaron] What he's saying is the law, which is good, and perfect, and righteous couldn't save any man because man has weak flesh. In our flesh we cannot fulfill the law. But Christ did fulfill the law in his own flesh. Right? And so what it's saying is that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us through the putting away of our flesh through Christ. - [Jennifer] Right, I just love that last part that you just read, it says, "Who walk not according to the flesh, "but according to the Spirit," which is foundational to what we're gonna be teaching from I Peter and it's a choice, they're all choices, right? - [Aaron] These are choices that the believer have because we've been set free, so we have the freedom to now choose righteousness rather than only being obedient to sin. - [Jennifer] Right, and it's through our actions that we walk according not to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. - [Aaron] Right, so this says, "Walk not according to the flesh," so if you take anyone who has suffered in the flesh and say, "Anyone who walks not according to the flesh, "but according to the Spirit ceases from sin," that's kind of what this is saying. This is verse five, "For those who live according "to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, "but those who live according to the Spirit "set their minds on the things of the Spirit." - [Jennifer] Okay, I gotta stop you again because I feel like there's often, I'm sure everybody can relate to this, but when you struggle with sin, and you wrestle with those temptations that come, your mind is on it, right, like when your mind is set on something that your flesh desires and wants to do it doesn't go away until either you do it or you tell it no. - [Aaron] Which is suffering. And this is where we're trying to define this. - [Jennifer] But that whole setting your mind, it starts there. - [Aaron] And it says this, "For to set the mind "on the flesh is death, but to set the mind "on the Spirit is life and peace." - [Jennifer] Raise your hand if you want life and peace. - [Aaron] "For the mind that is set "on the flesh is hostile to God." - [Jennifer] I don't want that. - [Aaron] Hostile, like you're an enemy of God when your mind's on the flesh, "For it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot. "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." So when the Bible tells us that the flesh and the Spirit are opposed to each other, are against each other, that's what this is saying. Saying when you're walking in the flesh you can't please God, you're an enemy. When you walk in the Spirit, you please God. And it's God's Spirit that we walk in. And then it says this, "You," believer, "however "are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, "if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. "Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ "does not belong to him. "But if Christ is in you, "although the body is dead because of sin, "the Spirit is life because of righteousness." So remember we said whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin? Let's put it this way, although the body is dead, suffered in the flesh because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. So the Spirit that God's put in us has brought to life our mortal bodies, and listen to this, verse 11, "If the Spirit of him "who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, "He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead "will also give life to your mortal bodies "through his Spirit who dwells in you." So I thought this Scripture perfectly illustrated what says right here when it says, "For whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. "So as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh "no longer for human passions, but for the will of God." So when we're gonna get more and more right now into this idea of suffering in the flesh, it's this idea of walking in the Spirit and not the flesh as Romans also says. When you gratify the desires of the flesh you cannot please God, right? But if you walk in the Spirit, you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. Right? - Yeah. - [Aaron] So this is what this is getting to, Peter's talking here, and he's explaining how Christ suffering in the flesh has done this for us. Has given us a way to suffer in our flesh, not in a way of self-salvation because we can't, Christ already did it. His suffering was sufficient. But because of his suffering and from his own words 'cause he left and went home to be with the Father, he sent his helper, the Spirit, to work in us and through us for his will and his work in us. So what we can do now is we can learn to suffer in our flesh via the Holy Spirit. Meaning I don't gratify the desires of my flesh. So when you want a donut, I love donuts. - [Jennifer] I love donuts. - [Aaron] Or you want that new car, or you want your neighbor's thing, coveting, right? Or you want to avoid shame so you lie, these are all fruit of the flesh, these are all things to protect your flesh. I don't like the way that feels, I don't wanna be embarrassed, I don't wanna look shameful, I have pride, I don't want them to think this way about me. It's all the flesh, so suffering is, like here's a form of suffering in the flesh, humbleness. That's painful, humbling yourself. Getting down on your knees and saying, "I am this thing, I did this thing, I said this, "and I want to be forgiven by You." Like humbling yourself, recognizing you're not that great of a person is suffering, is telling your flesh no. I'd rather you suffer and my spirit be lifted up. - [Jennifer] So you started out that little lineup of things that people struggle with was a donut so can you just explain, 'cause eating a donut doesn't have to deal with humility, what does it have to deal with? - [Aaron] Well again, our flesh, and I explained this on Sunday, I was talking about how our brains work. Our brain matter, it's flesh, it's a compilation of cells and there's these chemicals that get released and you have sensors, and receptors, and you have all these things that God gave us to work a certain way, pleasure sensors and pain sensors and all these things, and those are all the flesh. Now what the point is is that you don't just shut 'em all off. It's to put them into submission to the Spirit. So a donut right, having a donut's not sinful. Like, oh, a donut's good. But not having any control and letting your senses control you is not walking in the Spirit, it's walking in the flesh. Like that See Food diet, I see food and I eat it. That's not having any control, the Spirit's not in charge, your conscience isn't in charge, it's, "Oh I see it and I'm gonna put it "in my mouth and eat it." - [Jennifer] So the donut can represent a lot of different things. - [Aaron] Think about pornography. Like you're not controlling your flesh. You're saying, "Flesh, you can have whatever you want." - [Jennifer] That's not suffering. - [Aaron] No, well we suffer in the Spirit. - [Jennifer] And we suffer the consequences. - [Aaron] Yeah, we suffer the consequences, but you're not causing your flesh to suffer, telling your flesh, "No, I don't want you to have it. "I know you want that, I know you crave it, "I know you think that's gonna be good for you, "but the Spirit of God that's in me says no." - [Jennifer] That's good. Okay, so I wanna move on because there's a lot of clarity that comes from this next verse and how you broke it down, which is what impacted me probably the most out of this teaching. And so I'm gonna reread the verse, it's verse three, it says, "For the time that is past suffices "for doing what the Gentiles want to do," and I remember you stopped and said, "Underline that." - Underline want to do. - Want to do. 'Cause our flesh wants to do a lot of things. You just gave those examples. "Living in sensualities, passions, drunkenness, "orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatries. - [Aaron] You've read this a lot, right? - [Jennifer] Yeah, I've read this a lot, but I need to explain because I'm sure people relate to me on this. When you read certain scriptures, it's not that you don't say, "And I know I'm not perfect, "I know that there's sin in my life, "and I'm willing to have open eyes "and for God to reveal that to me, "but when I read this I go, 'well, I'm not really "'struggling with those things, "'I don't really have drinking parties or whatever.'" But you broke it down in a way that makes this verse relatable to all sinners. And so I wanna share that. - [Aaron] And let's remember what the context of this is. Christ's suffering, being armed with this way of thinking, recognizing that our flesh, having our flesh suffer while walking in the Spirit is how we cease from sin, it is how we walk the way God wants us to. And so he gives the contrast, he says, "For the time that has past suffices for doing "what the Gentiles want to do." Now when it says, "Gentiles," it's meaning Godless people. Gentiles were anyone that wasn't a Jewish person. And so what he's pointing out is not specifically Gentiles, he's saying anyone doesn't have God, isn't walking with God. And want to do, saying this is the way they want to be. And then it says, "Living in sensualities, "passions, drunkenness," and what I did is I broke down what these things are. - [Jennifer] And how they're all related. - 'Cause they're specific. - Yeah, they're very specific, and I didn't realize that they were even related. I just thought it was one of those lists, you know? - [Aaron] Again, if you're listening and you have your Bible, the want to do part. Okay, it's want to live in sensuality, and passions, and drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry, right? And like you said, "Well see I don't "struggle with those things." And maybe someone like me that struggled with pornography might point out sensuality and passions like okay, yeah, but I've never done orgies, that's not me. But I wanna highlight that through Christ and his suffering and him giving us of his Holy Spirit we've been freed from the want to do, right? He's changing our desires to be his, he's giving us a hatred of sin because he hates sin. - [Jennifer] And I think in conjunction, the convictions become stronger and so we hear the Holy Spirit loud and clear when we go to do something that we shouldn't be doing, right? - [Aaron] Our prayer and constant desire should be that he's consistently giving us new desires and new cravings. I pray, "Lord, give me a craving for your Word." I don't naturally in my flesh have enough craving for God's Word, let alone reading. Sorry if you relate to that, reading's not something I just crave to do, but there's some people that love reading. But I want God to change those desires so the want to do is an amazing thing that God's freed us from that we're no longer slaves to sin. That's the want to do. - [Jennifer] We're not slaves to our flesh. - [Aaron] We're not slaves to our flesh, God severed that slavery with his Spirit. And now we can actually walk in that Spirit when we focus on that Spirit and we walk in his ways in his Word, that's how this works. So I'm gonna define some of these things. Sensuality, it's not just sexual. Our definition of sensuality is usually very sexual and this absolutely does mean sexual, sensuality. But it's not only sexual. Sexual's one sense. It's one sense being usually this physical pleasure. - [Jennifer] That's what comes to my mind when I think about it. - [Aaron] But sensuality in the biblical use is unbridled lust. Unbridled lust. This idea of lust, I see something, I take it. So think about your five senses, sensual, it's a sensation experience. You're looking for you five senses to be pleasured. I want my eyes to see the most beautiful things. - [Jennifer] Or whatever I want them to see. - [Aaron] Or whatever I want them to see. I want my hands to touch whatever is gonna make my mind feel good. - [Jennifer] I want my mouth to say whatever I feel. - [Aaron] Or taste, right? So you think about your five senses and sensuality is living to please your five senses with whatever pleases your five senses. That's what sensuality is. Often, sexual things encompass all of them, which is why it's usually accompanied with sensuality as a sexual thing because sexual things please pretty much all your senses. But food, music, all of these things, not that those things in themselves are sinful, I want everyone to clearly hear me. It's living in a way that you want your senses pleased. 'Cause that's the opposite of suffering. That's the opposite of suffering. It's living for pleasure in every sense. You want your five senses taken care of, and if anyone of them are hindered or hurt or suffer, you're not happy, and something's wrong, and God must be angry or I'm not close to God. - [Jennifer] And you can see this in the flesh when you feel the conviction of either someone saying something to you about something that you're doing or the Holy Spirit just does it and you feel defensive. You immediately wanna justify that thing that it's not that bad, or that it's this or that it's that and you become, you wanna fight for it. There's gotta be a way that I can still have this in my life. - [Aaron] Yeah, so example of this is you're doing something and you're not recognizing it, and a brother or sister in Christ comes up and says, "Hey, I noticed that you're talking a certain way "or you did this certain thing." And you're like, "Don't judge me, get out of my way." And you immediately feel like you've been judged or wronged or hurt. In reality, you're just getting checked in your spirit and your flesh doesn't like it. - [Jennifer] I also wanna be realistic, most people don't say, "Don't judge me." What they'll do is say, "Oh, okay," and then never talk to that person again. They don't even communicate. - [Aaron] Or say, "Well let's just agree to disagree instead of again, suffering the flesh, humbling yourself and saying, "Maybe there is something I need to grow on." - [Jennifer] Or, "Man, that recognition alone just hurt. "And I'm gonna walk in that for a little bit "and see where God wants to take it." - [Aaron] So I wanna read this, I read this from Wikipedia. It's the definition of hedonism, which by the way, is this idea of pleasure-centered living. Like I'm looking to please all my senses, hedonism. "And it's a school of thought," this is what Wikipedia says, "Hedonism is a school of thought "that argues pleasure and suffering "are the only components of well-being. "Ethical hedonism is the view that combines "hedonism with welfarist ethics, "which claim that what we should do depends exclusively on what effects "the well-being individuals have. "Ethical hedonists would defend "either increasing pleasure or reducing suffering "for all beings capable of experiencing them "or just reducing suffering." So think about that. It's as long as I'm not suffering, I'm happy. Or I wanna be pleasured, and if I can't have pleasure I just don't wanna suffer. Now I want everyone listening to think about that 'cause we have areas in our life, Jennifer and I, we were talking about this that we think this way. Like, "Oh, I'm good with all this as long as "I don't have to go without food for a day." Or "As long as I'm not gonna feel this pain over here "or I'm not gonna have to say no to my flesh in this area." Right, we all have this level of pleasure-centered focus or at least avoidance of suffering. That's what this idea of hedonism is. - [Jennifer] Basically if we're living to pleasure our five senses we can't possibly be pleasing or pleasuring God. - [Aaron] Exactly because he might ask us to do something that doesn't feel good. Right? - Yeah. - [Aaron] And so a litmus test is for us to ask ourselves in those situations when we feel like we're just, it doesn't feel good, something's going on, we're having this emotional, which I'm about to talk about, we can ask ourselves, am I trying to avoid letting my flesh suffer a little bit? Am I trying to avoid saying no to my flesh? - [Jennifer] Okay, so the next one is passions and when I think of the word, passions, I immediately think of things that I'm either passionate about or people who've said-- - [Aaron] It's usually a positive thing, yeah. - [Jennifer] "I'm just a passionate person." But yeah, it's usually a positive thing or maybe it has to do with extracurricular activities or something like that. But why don't you share more about that? - [Aaron] So passions, the definition of passions in the dictionary is essentially uncontrolled or emotional outbursts. It's this like passion outburst of anger, which the Bible says wrath is not good, "The wrath of man does not produce "the righteousness of God." And wrath is an uncontrolled, emotional outburst. Or uncontrollable sadness, or uncontrollable joy or happiness. I'm just trying to get whatever emotions these are, out. And what this idea is is someone who lives purely off their emotions. Like, "Oh, I'm not happy, so things are wrong." But you know what, you know how many stories there are in the Bible of people that, like a lot of David's songs or him not happy. Now they still end joyfully 'cause he knows who his Lord is and his Redeemer, but he's in the muck and the mire. He's in a cave, cold and scared, the emotional, passionate person who lives by their emotions would say, "David was doing something wrong because he wasn't happy," but that's not true. David was right where God had him, he was doing what he could do in God's will. Now I'm not saying emotions are bad. God's given us all of these things. Our senses are good things. Our passions, our emotions are good things, but these are fleshly things, meaning if they're the things that drive us and dictate us then the Spirit of God is not. - [Jennifer] Yeah, I was just gonna say if someone's motivated to maintain a certain emotion or are drawn out of their emotions to act, they can't serve their emotions and serve God. - [Aaron] A good example in Scripture says, "Be angry and do not sin." - [Jennifer] So that's a perfect example of having and experiencing an emotion-- - [Aaron] But not letting it control you. - [Jennifer] But not letting it control you and not acting out of it. - [Aaron] Yeah, you know how hard it is to love someone who is harming you or doing you wrong? But that's what Scripture calls us to do. - Because Christ did it. - Because Christ did it. So, there's things that our emotions will want us to do, wrath, outbursts, laughter, like lots of things. But God wants the Spirit to be in control, not our emotions. And I wanna add to this, often, so based on the sensuality things when our five senses aren't being met with what they want that's when our emotions react. I'm hungry, you know the whole term, "I'm hangry." So you're having a sense, one of your five senses not being taken care of. - [Jennifer] Your emotions heighten. - [Aaron] And so you let your emotions go to get what you want, right? That is not being in self-control. That is not walking by the Spirit, that's walking in the flesh. And so I broke these down all like this to show us that this way of being is not the way the believer should be. That doesn't mean we're not gonna fall into our emotions at times, we're not to be these emotionless robots. What happens is God's given us a way to walk in the Spirit, even amidst the heaviest emotional times. Like sadness and brokenness and fear, and we can walk in the Spirit in those things. - [Jennifer] Yeah, how do you submit those to God and walk righteously amidst feeling those really deep things? - [Aaron] So it all goes back to the, men, this is a universal doctrine that it doesn't matter where you're at, it doesn't matter what you're going through, God has given you the freedom and through the Spirit of God to rise above those things and to appropriate those emotions where they belong. In your sadness to go to God and weep before him. And he says, "I've bottled up every tear." So knowing that we can actually run to the Father, "I'm so angry right now, God, take my anger from me. "Show me how to not be angry with my wife, or my husband." - [Jennifer] My kids. - [Aaron] Or we can just handle it ourselves and let's just take that emotion, and let's just-- - Run with it. - Run with it. And what usually happens, and everyone's thinking about those things when they've let their emotions run, we regret it every time. And we look back and we say, "Well, that wasn't godly, "that was not what Christ would've done." - [Jennifer] Or "Man, I just wish I was different." When we can be, it's just the choices we're making. - [Aaron] So I wanna go on to the next part, which-- - [Jennifer] Feels like an obvious one. - Right, drunkenness. - Drunkenness. Well, it's not just intoxication though. - [Aaron] Well, you're right. - [Jennifer] It is, when you look up the definition, drunkenness, it's being intoxicated by something like alcohol. - [Aaron] Right, and this is clearly talking about no believer should get drunk. - [Jennifer] The Bible talks too much about being sober minded. - [Aaron] And not being drunk specifically. So I do wanna clarify I'm not saying this doesn't mean you can go get drunk. No believer should be getting drunk ever. - [Jennifer] All of these things mean what they are. They also have-- - Deeper spiritual meanings. - Deeper spiritual meanings that we can apply to address our sinful nature. - [Aaron] So let's talk about what drunkenness is. Yes, it's being drunk on alcohol or some sort of drug. Your mind, it's overtaken by something else, which is essentially what drunkenness is. You're allowing a substance, an external force to take over your flesh, that's what drunkenness is. You drink enough alcohol, what happens? The Bible talks about it, you start saying things you would never say out loud, you start acting a way you would never act. - [Jennifer] I always say that or associated it with the word uncontrolled, like that person's uncontrolled right now, but I never considered the aspect of it you actually being controlled by that thing that you just ingested. - [Aaron] Yeah, and I'll give an example, Proverbs 20, verse one says, "Wine is a mocker." So it's saying that the alcohol has an influence to cause you to mock. "Strong drink a brawler." Wants you to fight. All of these things are very fleshly things. "And whoever is led astray by it is not wise." So now nowhere in Scripture does it say you're not allowed to drink. Now some people will take it that way, and we're talking about alcohol so I'm just bringing it up. But 100% absolutely no believer should be getting drunk on anything. But the next thing I'm gonna talk about. And it says, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, "and whoever is led astray," so I've given myself over to this substance, this thing to now do what it wants with me. Like not as if it's a real person, but we have these basic, all these things that are talking about the flesh, we have these basic ways of being in the deep parts of us. - [Jennifer] It's the way he designed us, like he designed us to-- - [Aaron] But he wants it under control. Not let go of. And so the other part I wanna say is in Ephesians five, 18 it says, "Do not get drunk "with wine," again there's a direct command, don't get drunk with wine, "For that is debauchery. "But be filled with the Spirit." So it's saying, don't let your flesh go by letting it be overtaken with wine, alcohol, other substances, but be filled with the Spirit of God. - [Jennifer] This also shows that deeper spiritual meaning of what we're trying to show here when you talk about drunkenness because drunken by the Spirit, that sounds weird, but it's because of that deeper meaning that we're talking about. - [Aaron] And at the base level of what drunkenness is, it's literally the removal of the natural functions that God's put in us, that inhibition in us, that conscience, that ability and restraint that is naturally in us to like, maybe there's something I wanna say, but I'm not gonna say it 'cause that's not appropriate. You're drunk and it just comes out of your mouth. So what you're doing is you're living in the sensuality way you want all your senses met, you're living with your emotions and then you wanna be drunk and you want to release the natural built in barriers that God's given you to protect you from doing or saying-- - [Jennifer] Sinful things. - [Aaron] Yeah, things that don't honor you, don't honor others, don't honor God. And so again, it's like this, I wanna just let it all out, I don't want any control, it's the exact opposite of self-control. It's no control. Which then leads us into the awkward one, orgies. - [Jennifer] Which everybody's thinking sexual experience. - [Aaron] Which again, it means that. - [Jennifer] It is, but it also means more than that. - [Aaron] Right, if you look at orgies at the base idea of what an orgy is, it's overindulgence. So all the things we just talked about, it's doing all of it without restraint. - [Jennifer] Yeah, no barriers, no limitations, as long as you want, as much as you want. - [Aaron] Yeah, oh and that was another good donut. - [Jennifer] That was a good box of donuts. - [Aaron] Those two boxes of donuts were amazing, right, but of course I would feel gross after that. Or alcohol, like alcoholics, they don't restrain themselves. And we're talking about these things that go in the mouth, but think about anything. Anything in your life that you don't want any restraint on. - [Jennifer] So it's overindulgence, and it's giving into your flesh, and you're never satisfied, you're never satiated. - [Aaron] Yeah, when you're in the flesh-- - It's never enough. - The flesh never has enough. You know who says this, Solomon says it in Ecclesiastes one, eight. It says, "All things are full of weariness, "a man cannot utter it. "The eye is not satisfied with seeing, "nor the ear filled with hearing." - [Jennifer] Okay so just that made me think of the porn industry. They get hooked at an early age, but then it's not enough to gratify what their eye is seeing, so it gets worse and worse, deeper and deeper into these things that are just wicked. - [Aaron] And worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. - [Jennifer] And still yet never satisfied. - [Aaron] And this is like the exact opposite of what Christ wants for us. In that verse it says, "The time has past that suffices," means we've done enough of this. Literally he's saying that we have freedom from this unsatisfied, never ending cycle. - [Jennifer] Well, what did Christ say to the woman at the well? - [Aaron] Oh, yeah, so the woman comes to him and she asks for water and he says, "If you would ask me I would have given you water "that you would never thirst again." And she says, "Where's this water, give it to me." - [Jennifer] So it's this contrast of allow your flesh to rule you and never be satisfied or walk in the Spirit and be who you are in Christ with freedom and be completely satisfied. - [Aaron] Right, and Christ, God wants us to be satisfied in him alone. And so when we walk in the flesh, like this idea of orgies it's like I just wanna go somewhere that's gonna give me everything I want and as much of it as I can. And this is not the way of the believer. We are satisfied, completely satisfied in Christ. And so this was a historical note, I saw when looking up this idea of orgies, which I did very carefully by the way. - [Jennifer] Which if you think about that. - [Aaron] Yeah, and historically the word comes from, it's a Greek word, orgia or something like that, but what it was was it was a ritual, secret rites used to worship a Roman god. And the Roman god was the god of grapes and vines and caused men to be crazy. So it's this idea of when we have this way of being, we're like, "I just wanna go and I wanna throw "all my inhibition out, and I wanna drink, "and I wanna eat, and I wanna have fun, "and I want my five senses pleased, "and I wanna just be happy." You're literally worshiping something other than God. That's this idea when you walk in the flesh in this way. So we're gonna go to the next one, there's two more, we're almost done. Drinking parties, and this idea of drinking parties is exactly what it says, these parties that you're just going to get drunk. - [Jennifer] Again, in reading the list in Scripture I skip over 'cause I go, "Well, I'm not doing that." - [Aaron] But the deeper idea is parties meaning multiple, meaning many others, meaning you're inviting others to partake in all of this way of being. That's the way that the people that don't know God, the Bible says, "Don't associate with the wicked "for they can't even seep until they've caused bloodshed "or until they've caught people in their snare." Like these ideas of drawing others into the same way of living fleshly. - [Jennifer] And it can be as simple as you're sitting in a room full of friends and you start gossiping. The invitations can be subtle, but I think that the reason people do it is because they don't want to do it alone, they don't want to be alone in their sin. They're seeking approval so if I can get so and so to do it along with me, then there's this sense of approval that it's okay. Or maybe wrestling with the shame and guilt that comes with sin that you wanna forget about and so you have others join in, I mean there's a lot of different reasons why. - [Aaron] Well, I'll give a great example in my own life, and it's something I'm not proud of, but when I was deep into pornography, and I would meet new men in churches there were pastors or they were like older or wiser and deep down inside either I thought, "There's no way that he's not addicted to pornography "just like me," or I hoped that he was because I didn't want to be the only one. And I thought, "No, every single one "of these guys does too." - It's so broken. - It's so broken. So in my mind, this drinking parties idea, this idea of like, "Oh, we're in this together. "He's a sinner like me and he does the same things as I do, "and I actually hoped he did." - [Jennifer] I think this is a good time to caution us to evaluate ourselves. Are we inviting others to partake in sin that maybe we're not recognizing as sin or we've pushed away that conviction from the Holy Spirit and let's ask God this week, "What areas of my life "have I been inviting people to partake "in with me that aren't righteous?" - [Aaron] Well, it first takes that self-evaluation of like, "God, is there anything "in me that you want out of me?" A good example in the marriage, do you remember when we were going through financial stuff? I would let you spend the way we probably shouldn't spend knowing that it would let me spend the way I wanted to spend. - [Jennifer] Right, 'cause then when you would request something I would have to say yes. - [Aaron] Because I'd be like, "Well, I let you get your thing." And essentially we were just pulling each other down. - [Jennifer] That's really good. So in marriage that's often where the invitation starts. - [Aaron] Keyword, drinking party. Don't invite me, just kidding. - [Jennifer] Don't invite me. - [Aaron] Last thing, lawless idolatry. Everything we just walked through is lawless idolatry and here's why. It's self-worship. - [Jennifer] Yeah, how I feel, what I want-- - [Aaron] Is god. - [Jennifer] Well, it should be God. - [Aaron] No, what I was saying is what you feel and what you want is god, is your god. - [Jennifer] Right, is your god. But what we should be saying is-- - [Aaron] "God, what you want." "God, do you want me to be hungry right now?" And I keep talking about these physical things because this is the idea. - [Jennifer] Well, that's where it starts. - [Aaron] We are to be spiritual people. Jesus told the woman at the well that same story. She's talking about where they worship 'cause she was a Samaritan, he's a Jew and he says, "There's gonna be a day "that you will neither worship there or here, "but my people worship me in spirit and in truth." Not worshiping in passions and sensuality and as Jude says, and that happens even in the church. I'm gonna worship God with my senses, and if I don't sense God and feel God, and my senses aren't being met and pleasured by the Spirit of God then I must be far from God. But you know what, there's many people in the Bible that were in the pit. I think of Paul, and he's singing worship songs, naked and cold in prison. In that moment most people would be like, "I don't feel close to God. "He's not helping me, this doesn't feel good." But Paul knew exactly who his savior was and he knew that what he was dealing with as he says in Scripture, he says, "For I have ascertained that my current suffering "is nothing to be compared with the coming glory." What that means is that this temporary suffering, the little bit of saying no in my flesh, the little bit of pain that I feel, the little bit of depraving of my own desires for the sake of God's will and God's thing that he wants done in my life and in others is so little to be compared with the glory that I'm gonna experience when he returns. - [Jennifer] Which is a hopeful message for us as Christians. We should hear that and be like, "Yes, we're in agreeance here." We should be willing to suffer, and this is why suffering in the flesh is good for us. - [Aaron] Yeah, and a lot of people don't like talking about suffering, but this again is a universal doctrine that Christians should understand and walk in that my flesh does not get to win in my life. - [Jennifer] And when we feel those convictions from the Holy Spirit going day to day, whatever it might be, when you don't tell yourself no, you're putting yourself in a place of worship that you should not be in. You're idolizing yourself, you're saying, "God, I'm more important that you." - [Aaron] My comfort's more important that your will. My pleasure's more important that your Word. And so each one of these is like this progress of worshiping self verses Creator. Worshiping the creation rather than the Creator. My comfort, my pleasures, my senses are much more important than what God's doing in my life. - [Jennifer] A dangerous place to be. - [Aaron] And a good example of this is the reason why many people have a hard time getting out of debt or quitting certain addictions or making life changes is because that's too difficult for my flesh to handle, even though God's like, "But I'm gonna "give you the strength to do it." - [Jennifer] Yeah, I think too, just to shed a little bit more perspective on this idea of suffering, I think sometimes we only go so far to see what we would suffer in the midst of saying no to our flesh. So like it's that little bit of-- - [Aaron] "I tried." - [Jennifer] Yeah, but we see what suffering equals when we say no to our flesh, but we don't look beyond that to see what suffering looks like when we don't say no to our flesh, the consequences, the hurt, the pain, the death, the sin that comes. - [Aaron] The shame. - [Jennifer] Because of the choices that we make. And that's what all of this, of what we're talking about today comes down to choice. You're gonna choose to walk in the Spirit or you're gonna choose to gratify the desires of the flesh. - [Aaron] And you know what believer, you're listening to this? - [Jennifer] You have been set free. - [Aaron] Yeah, you're not a slave to sin and death. We can choose to walk in the Spirit that God's given us. He dwells in us, giving life to our mortal bodies. How amazing is that? So this isn't a go suffer and find your righteousness through just self-depravity and self-abasement. That's not what we're talking about. There are some faiths and some religions that believe that. If you just make yourself suffer enough, you'll be righteous. Now the point is we're already righteous, and the way a righteous person walks with the Spirit of God is we don't gratify the desires of our flesh. And when we do, we recognize it, we repent, and we say, "Thank you, Lord, for forgiving me. "And give me your power to walk better next time "to beat that thing that is in my life "because you have beat it on the cross." - [Jennifer] Amen, so here's the charge for us this week and forever. And it's that first part of that verse that you started us off with there and it's, "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh," our Christ, our Lord, our Savior suffered in the flesh, "Arm yourself with the same way of thinking." We have to think like him. - [Aaron] This current fleshly body we live in is temporary and the simplest way to put this is Jesus says, "Take up your cross and follow me." The cross is the instrument of the death of our flesh. So let's crawl up on that cross and let's take it with us and let's ask the Holy Spirit, "Lord, teach me. "Teach me how to say no to my flesh "when it craves things that are in opposition to you." Some of us struggle with pride, I just wanna throw that one in there, that's a flesh thing. That's pride, that's the flesh wanting to be elevated and recognized, rather than humbled and God being recognized. So we always end in prayer. Jennifer, why don't you pray for us? - [Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for your Word and how it cuts us to the heart. Thank you for teaching us through your Word. We pray your Word would continue to transform us as we learn it and choose to walk out all that you've commanded us to. We pray we would be people who recognize parts of our hearts that need to change, sin that needs to be repented of, motivations that are not pure, and actions that do not reflect your ways for the purpose of repentance and reconciliation and growth may your will be done in us and through us, may your light shine brightly through our marriages as we encourage one another to draw closer to you. In Jesus's name, amen. - [Aaron] Amen, we love you guys, and we thank you for joining us this week. Please consider leaving us a review and a star rating. You just gotta go to the bottom of your podcast app and tap one of those stars and leave a review, we love those, and they help other people find the episodes, find the podcast. And also don't forget to get the free Marriage Prayer Challenge, MarriagePrayerChallenge.com. See you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also if you're interested you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at MarriageAfterGod.com. And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

When 11 year old Elise Sammis applied for the Food Network's Kids Baking Championship, she didn’t think twice about telling them - right up front - that she lives with type 1 diabetes. She says she wanted everyone to know in order to show that diabetes wouldn't keep her from her love of baking, or anything else. Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Turns out, there's another young woman with type 1 on the show this season! You can learn more about Naima Winston here. Stacey met Elise & her mom, Natalie, at an event in South Carolina. They spoke about the show, the stress and her diagnosis two years ago at Disney world. Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! In TMSG - good news at the dentist - and it wasn’t about cavities.. and we'll share a story of a lot of spirit at Walt Disney World Marathon weekend. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode transcript (rough transcription, please forgive grammar, spelling, punctuation) -----------Stacey Simms 0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop created for people with diabetes by people who have diabetes, and by Dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with Dexcom. Announcer: This is diabetes connections with Stacey Simms. Stacey Simms 0:23 This week, when 11 year old Elise Sammis applied for the Food Network's kids Baking Championship. She didn't think twice about telling them right up front - she lives with Type 1 diabetes. Elise Sammis 0:36 No, that was very important to me, because I wanted like everyone to know that if you have diabetes, you can still do the things that you want to do. And it was super cool because there was another girl named Naima. She's my super good friend and she had also had type one, and she's super sweet. And we were both like, yay, we both have type one! Stacey Simms 0:52 That's right. There are two young women with T1D competing on this season of the show. I met Elise at an event recently, and I talked to her and her mom about the show the stress, enter diagnosis at Disney World in Tell me something good. Good news at the dentist and it's not about cavities and a lot of spirit at Walt Disney World marathon weekend. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Welcome to another week of diabetes connections. I am so glad you're here. We aim to educate and inspire about type 1 diabetes by sharing stories of connection. I'm your host Stacey Simms. My son was diagnosed 13 years ago right before he turned two. The show this week is airing a little earlier than usual. Yeah, we almost always drop the interview show the longer show of the week on Tuesday. But because the Kids Baking Championship is on the Food Network on Monday nights. I thought it would just be fun to release the show with Elise on the day of her show. I love the baking shows, and we used to watch them. I feel like it was around the clock for a couple of years my daughter got into them right around the same age as Elise between the ages of like nine and 12. We've watched so many of these baking shows, we made cupcakes, we didn't ever compete. My daughter never wanted to be on TV like that. But it was great. And we certainly got a lot of comments about the cupcakes because I would post them on social media and I'll put some pictures up in the Facebook group because these were, you know, really big. I mean, they weren't beautiful, but they were sharks and cupcakes that look like popcorn and you know, all the dramatic fun stuff. And people would say all the time. Oh, it's too bad that your daughter has that hobby. What are you doing about your son? And I'm like, I'm not letting him eat 17 cupcakes, but I'm not letting her eat 17 cupcakes either. You know, it's fine with Type 1 diabetes, you just have to know exactly what you're eating. Right? It does take extra work. But now go ahead eat the cupcake. And with those memories right in the back of my mind, it was even more fun to talk to Elise and to Natalie It is always a bit dicey talking to reality show contestants. You know, we've done this before, and it is always fun. But it's not just about what they can't say because here obviously they can't talk about the show, even though it's taped weeks and weeks months ago, but because you never know they could win the whole thing. They could be off the show before this episode even airs. But I'm so thrilled that Elise is is one of two girls on the show with Type 1 diabetes and it was great to talk to her and her mom and no matter what happens on the show, she is well on her way quite a personality and really just a fun kid. All right, first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop and getting diabetes supplies is a pain and not only the ordering and the picking up, but also the arguing with insurance over what they say you need and what you really need. Make it easy with One Drop. They offer personalized test trip plans, plus you get a Bluetooth glucose meter, test strips, lancets and your very own certified diabetes coach. Subscribe today to get test strips for less than $20 a month delivered right to your door. No prescriptions or co pays required. One less thing to worry about. not that surprising when you learn the founder of One Drop lives with type one. They get it. One Drop, gorgeous gear supplies delivered to your door 24 seven access to your certified diabetes coach. learn more, go to diabetes connections dot com and click on the One Drop logo. My guests this week are Elisa Sammis and her mother Natalie. Elise is a contestant on this season's Food Network kids baking show. She was diagnosed with type one at age nine and we talked about her diagnosis. But she was already baking a lot by then. And luckily her family realized you can continue to bake and enjoy dessert even with Type 1 diabetes. Being on a big show like this is a great chance to educate and what's really fun is as we mentioned, Elise isn't doing it alone. There's another young woman on the show Naima Winston from Baltimore is her name and I will put some links and information on our episode homepage, where there is also a transcript about Elise about Naima about the show and more information. So please check that out. That's a diabetes dash connections.com. And while you're there, please note every episode from the last four years is there you may be intimidated to scroll through I get asked all the time, what's the best order? I actually think the best way to listen is either to use the search box and put in whatever interests you Disney, Dexcom, Tandem, Omnipod, right or you can search by category as well. If you click on the tab that says all episodes, you'll see another search box to the right and then filter by category. And that is a really great way to dial into what you want the categories including advocates, athletes, artists, actors, education, technology, travel, family, you know, there's a whole bunch of ways to narrow this down because we've got more than 270 episodes now Holy cow. And I really urge you to go take a stroll through and see what interests you. Quick note, this interview was done on the road, I was speaking at the JDRF chapter, the Palmetto chapter in South Carolina. So the sound quality is a little bit different than when I'm doing things in the studio. And I may be a little soft at times. I'll tell you about the technical nonsense that happened. I'll tell you about that at the end of the show. So let's get to it. Here is my interview with Elise and Natalie Sammis. Let me start with you, Natalie. How did you guys even find out about this? How do you get your kids on a show like this? Elise Sammis 6:38 Well, actually, I didn't get my kid on the show. Elise put herself on the show. Basically, we live in the south and hurricanes are prevalent. And about a year and a half ago, at least you think it was Hurricane Matthew and we got five days off of school. And so I was very bored around the house. So I looked up, like, because I like to bake and I was getting into it. So I looked up like baking competitions and I saw like form so that we could, like fill out a form so that we could try out. And so I made a video for it and I sent it into them. And after that we didn't hear until like six months later. Stacey Simms 7:23 So during that five days and your home and baking was that your first foray? Was that your first time into baking or is it something you'd always like to do? Elise Sammis 7:30 I'd pretty much always like to bake from like, I guess like when I got diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes when I was nine, it was really stressful. So it was just really like stress relieving to be able to bake and it was like creative. Stacey Simms 7:46 Alright, so we have an audience that knows about diabetes. But what you just said when I was diagnosed with type one I found it really stress relieving – that could sound strange. What were your thoughts as she was enjoying this as a younger kid? Natalie Sammis 8:06 The two background stories, I think that are important in this piece are that a I am an avid Baker. And so literally, sugar is in my blood at all times. No, I my motto is dinner is always just a means to dessert. That is my life motto since a small child. And also number two, I'm actually an RN, I have my Bachelor's of Science and nursing. So I understand the principles. I understand that Yeah, you skirt the line a little bit closer. When it comes to desserts. It is a little bit more complicated in your carb counting. But it's also it's very doable. It's not off the table. It's not something that someone should be terrified of. It's something that you can balance and put into your life. And also we realized that half the time that we bake, we don't even eat it really we are sharing it with our friends or we're posting it like on social media to feel unify with other people. People It is really, truly a creative outlet for us probably like how people feel with art, but I don't get art and I cannot eat art. So we just go with the dessert side of the world and we like it and we make friends by giving people desserts. Stacey Simms 9:15 How old were you when you were diagnosed? Elise Sammis 9:17 It was the day after my ninth birthday, and we were in Disney. And there was my birthday and my mom actually fed me a chocolate chip cookie for breakfast. Right there. So we were like noticing a lot of symptoms. I was really thirsty all the time. So then my mom took me to the urgent care clinic, the CBS for CBS. And like the MinuteClinic the MinuteClinic Yep, yep. And I got and she got a glucose meter and she thought as a UTI at first. Natalie Sammis 9:52 Right. So she took a blood sugar first and it just read error. When the very first meter read error. The nurse in me problem solving. I thought, ooh, there's something wrong with the machinery that that Wait a second, I know how to litmus test this. So I stuck my own finger, I tested my own blood sugar and it said 96 I still remember the number and my heart sunk. I knew at that moment, deep down that she had diabetes, but I didn't even then didn't want to admit it. Because, you know, that's the worst. So we went to the urgent care and the urgent care. I still remember they looked at us like we were crazy because we walked in. And Elise is holding a Diary of a Wimpy Kid book. And she's just flipping through and reading it and she has a bottle of water in one hand, because at that point, I said, You drink as much as you can. Right? Right, right. Just drink this. And I said, I think my daughter might have diabetes. They look at me, like, does she fall down? Did she pass out? Like I'm like, No, but she's drinking me. Are you from the area? No, we're on vacation at Disney. And they're like, so you stopped your Disney vacation and you think she has diabetes? I'm like, I know. I basically said tell me I'm crazy. I want to walk out of here laughing like I'm just a paranoid Mom, I just cannot in good faith just go back home after seeing the error recording and having those symptoms and I just need to know so we waited quite a while because we were not on the urgent list at that point. And even the doctor said, I think it's probably just a UTI. But he respected my wish to check your blood sugar. And at that moment, their meter read error Hi. And they said he pulled out his personal cell phone and said go directly to Orlando Children's Hospital. Stacey Simms 11:31 Do you remember any of that? I mean, nine is old enough, but sometimes things get confusing. Do you remember like, anything that your mom was saying? Or what's going on in the hospital? Elise Sammis 11:39 Well, I remember that like when I got in there. I was asking like, Is it ever going to go away and everything then I remember the turkey bacon was disgusting Natalie Sammis 11:49 They put her on this restricted carb diet. So all she could eat with like a massive amounts of turkey bacon, Elise Sammis 11:57 turkey bacon. like sugar free jello. Stacey Simms 12:03 So did you ever get back to Disney World? Natalie Sammis 12:05 Yeah, we did we After that we went to Hollywood Studios. We took it that Disney paid for us for a taxi or an Uber. I can't remember which one back to our place that we were staying in the other. My Elise is the oldest of four children. So the other kids and my husband were already at the party because we said go on without us because we had been in the hospital for about three and a half days. And we got in that taxi cab we threw our suitcases in there and we saw the next bus to Disney and we ran our little hearts out and barely caught the bus and we didn't get to do too much that day. And then we went home the next day but Disney was kind enough to give us passes to come back and when we had kind of our life under control a little bit more and we understood more about diabetes in real life. We came back probably three months later in May Elise Sammis 12:52 is a lot better experience than the last. It was a lot more fun. Okay, Stacey Simms 12:57 so after Disney World when you go home You say you figured out diabetes in a bad life? You were already enjoying baking at that point. After all that turkey bacon. Were you worried? Like that's it for baking or cupcakes? Or did your mom kind of jumped right back into it with you? Elise Sammis 13:14 Well, for about a week later, I was like, I don't even know like what I can or can't eat. And so we like kind of researched a lot. And then I was like, wait, I don't have to just not eat sugar. I can just take insulin for it. So then I was like, Well, I can still bake and stuff. And so that's I was like, yeah, you know, it's got really excited about it. Stacey Simms 13:39 That's great. So what a whirlwind diagnosis and hopefully we'll have time I want to talk a little bit more about Disney World later, but let's talk about the bacon. You send in the video. You wait six months later, what do you hear what happens? Elise Sammis 13:53 So like, I've been waiting and then another season came out, and that was like, they just didn't see it. The following, never gonna happen. And then like, six months later after that, I was on the bus and my mom called me She's like, you're not gonna believe who just called me. And I was like Harry Potter. Stacey Simms 14:14 well, she was almost 11. Elise Sammis 14:18 And then she's like, no, it's the kids baking championship people and they want to interview and I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah. So I ran home. We did a lot of Skype interviews, and I had a lot of assignments and I had to make a ton of desserts. And there's a lot of other videos I had to make for it. And there's a lot of interviews as the mom you know, please seeking I mean, this is an exciting time but at the same time it's a lot of hopes for a young woman to have Yeah, yeah. Nervous that after all of this work, she wasn't gonna get on the show. Oh, very, very guarded, I guess will be the word. Natalie Sammis 14:53 I mean, I'll backtracking when she said mom can I turn in the video and I did have to click like I agree and I help fill in. Some of the, like contact information so it was correct, because at that point, you were 10 years old when she turned in the video. And I told I still remember and people laugh at me still, at least still less than me. My caveat was sure I'll turn in this video but you need to understand that you will never hear back from them, they probably will never see it and you're never going to be on that show. And if you're okay with all those three sentences, I'm feeling okay with letting you turn this in. Because I'm more of a realist. I am Elise is a is a goal setter and a go getter and a dreamer. And she proved me wrong every time so I don't know why I keep doubting it. But I just I think I do that out of protection as a mom and so yeah, as time went on, you couldn't even the process is when they Skype, the parent in the room is not allowed to be in the room. You can't be there. They want the kids to stand on their own. They don't want some mom in the corner given them most of coaching and so I would put my ears to like the door but I have a he was four at the time. And he would be like read to me we've got this new dog that was like two months old and an idiot, so I'm literally like hearing every fifth word. And even then I'm like, oh, like so excited out of my mind that I couldn't even concentrate. So I mean, it was crazy. Just week after week, it went on for from March until June, just on and off on enough like, yes, you made it to the next step. Then we would hear crickets, crickets crickets, and you don't want to be the annoying mom. And then they not pick you because you're this weirdo psycho. So you had to play it cool. You have to kind of just wait for them. And then the next kind of like little piece of cheese would come and he would chase after that. Stacey Simms 16:34 so then this is going on for a while. When did you really start to get close? What happens? I don't know how much you can share. So don't tell us what you can't. But how do you know that? This is going to be it? Elise Sammis 16:44 Yeah. Well, we were doing all these interviews and videos and I was it just kept going. And I was like, when are they going to cut to the chase and like, actually do it. And so then we got a call in like early June. They're like, we want to fly out 15 kids, we're gonna send three home and all the other ones are going to be able to be on the show. And I was like, we're finally going to LA. Natalie Sammis 17:09 Yeah. So we knew flying out there all the way to all this work. I mean, this is now we've been up till 2am, baking things having to print that present the next day unless it's work. I mean, huge amount of work. And it's a risk. It's Stacey Simms 17:24 already going home. And then the competition, you know, Natalie Sammis 17:27 oh, yeah. So our goal was to get on the show, and knock it out the first episode. And we didn't do those things so that we can just hang our head forever. Stacey Simms 17:36 What happens when you're there? I mean, you know, kids are generally pretty friendly, I would think. I mean, you want to be friends, you're hanging out. There's got to be a lot of downtime. If you're not familiar with TV production, there's so much downtime, is it hard doing that knowing that they're not going to stay? Elise Sammis 17:52 It was super hard because like, the first day like all of them were super nice, and they're all like super friendly, and like we went to the mall, and we hung out at the pool together. And like, I didn't want any of them to go. But they had to, there was no thing in me that was like, I want so and so to get out. Yeah. Stacey Simms 18:13 So yeah, be nice if everybody could win. But that's not how the show works. Yeah. All right, what can you tell us because a couple of episodes have aired already, but when this podcast airs will probably be further down the road. So I'm curious if you can share anything about what goes on behind the scenes because I've seen the show and some of it looks very ordered. Some of it looks very chaotic. is some of that chaos planned? Or is it just you guys are really doing what you're doing? What do people really knock stuff over? Elise Sammis 18:38 Sometimes they would tell me to ask how are you doing so and so? And they really like good. And then sometimes they would say like, tell all the other bakers you have 15 minutes left. And the other stuff we would just say random things. Yeah, your mind. Natalie Sammis 18:56 Well, it was funny to that. I think there's a couple times that the cameras People I thought it was interesting. They have 13 different cameras going to get all the angles. They have one big overhead camera. And she said, anytime anyone made a mistake, you knew it, because you'd feel the crane. Whoa, hovering over you. So you didn't want the big camera to go on you. You knew that either something's on fire or going downhill fast. So no one wanted the big camera to be swooping in their direction. Stacey Simms 19:27 we haven't really talked about diabetes and the show. That was in your video, some of your audition. Yes. You mentioned it. Was there any hesitancy on your part to put that in? Was that important to you Elise Sammis 19:37 know, that was very important to me, because I wanted like everyone to know that if you have diabetes, you can still do the things that you want to do. And it was like super cool, because there was another girl named Naima. She's my super good friend and she had also had type one, and she's super sweet. And we were both like, yeah, we both have type one. Stacey Simms 19:55 I was gonna ask you about Naima because I'm obviously we're not interviewing her for the show, but I've seen her story. Well, and it was incredible to me. So far the posts have all been, oh, there's two kids with type one on the Food Network. And everybody's been saying no, no, no, you're confused this name and no, you're no, you're confused. Oh, it's really Natalie Sammis 20:12 well, well, even we were confused. But we walk in the first day and its orientation and all the sudden I'm hearing Dexcom alarms and I'm going Elise, Like what? Like, like it is because it sounds too far from us. And she should have it in your bag. And I said, Who's next column? What Where's your Dexcom? And then this other little girl pipes up and says, Oh, that's mine. And that moment, it was that instant bond of like, you have to wait, we have to. It was our first I think your first real friend like you have acquaintances that have type one, but this is the first time she connected with some one else on this kind of level who has type one and I think that's special. Stacey Simms 20:48 So you guys have kept in touch. Elise Sammis 20:50 We have a big old group chat. We all talk every day. Stacey Simms 20:54 That's cool. I wish I can ask you more but I know Yeah. Elise Sammis 21:00 Did any of the other kids talk to you about diabetes? I mean, kids don't always do that. I'm just curious. They were pretty curious. And they're like, what's on your arm? And I was like, Oh, that's my insulin pump and everything. They were super nice and they're like, they didn't really care about it. They were just super sweet. Stacey Simms 21:29 Did any of the parents because I mean my son doesn't bake and I remember when I've been parental settings for sports or there's always somebody who's like, well can you really eat that? You know, anything like that? Natalie Sammis 21:30 No one really I think because we had gotten that far. And they knew we were that serious about baking. They can't bear Yeah, there's two of us they dare not I think what we are all became like very good friends. I think it's always eye opening when you get to know other people that the little bit of understanding of what type one really means day in and day out and on vacation and we were in a very stressful situation and we were up I mean, her blood sugar would just go crazy every time she baked it every time she was on set I wouldn't even let her eat a single carb because I already knew her blood sugar would be through the roof when she's getting stressed her her levels go high and so her Dex have just been going off. I can't believe we can't hear it at the show you you are only there but it almost felt a little good to be able to just kind of explain and see what is really like it Yeah, we were up at 2am and 3am and 4am treating highs and then treating lows and this is our everyday and oh at least go change your pod or and they kind of like look at you with like huge eyes like you do this every day and you're kind of like Yeah, we do. It's all right that like what I am so proud of at least and I don't know if everyone told you this really but she did not once ever use diabetes or her blood sugar level as an excuse whenever she didn't perform how she wanted to perform or when she was stressed or other kids won certain competitions. She Never ever, ever even had that in a thought like it does not hold her back physically or mentally ever. I want to have my little mom sign like “do you know her blood sugar is 328, do you know hard it is to be thinking clearly?!” like, I just wanted to say that like you don't understand how cool she is right now. Stacey Simms 23:19 So but let me ask you because obviously diabetes did not stop you from doing this. But did anything happened during the competition where you did have to leave to change a pod? Or it Did you know, mess you up? Did anything ever happened along the way because it does happen sometimes. Elise Sammis 23:32 Thankfully, like nothing like sometimes the medical my medical person, she was super nice. She would like come over and give me some insulin but I would just keep on baking and she would like BB Stacey Simms 23:46 Yeah, so was this somebody that the show provided Natalie Sammis 23:48 that they had two medicd, so they had one assigned to Naima one assigned to Elise and I'm sure they would cover the other kids who like cut themselves to cut themselves on fire, but they were basically there to hover over The two diabetics. Stacey Simms 24:01 Did you ever catch yourself on fire? Unknown Speaker 24:02 No but someone did we had to slap it down with a giant pan. Natalie Sammis 24:07 Yeah, yeah, there's some fire soon. Yeah. Spoiler alert. Awesome. Stacey Simms 24:13 So much to ask you about the show. But I'm curious as you watch the show, the judges are a big part of it. You know, were you nervous meeting them? Was it fun? Anything stand out. I don't know what you could tell us. Elise Sammis 24:25 It was super exciting meeting them and like Valerie was super nice. And she was just like a mom like the whole time she like was very nice. That was nice. Stacey Simms 24:37 Sweet the judges of Valerie Burtonelli, who we all know from one day to time, all those great shows and then Duff is the.. he did Charm City cakes, right? Yeah. Duff Goldman. We were huge fans. My daughter is in college now. But we watched Charm City cakes a ton. He was our guy. Yes. And you said he was interesting? Elise Sammis 25:00 He really funny and like sarcastic and he was really, like nice about the judging and everything and he was really, like supportive. Stacey Simms 25:08 Maybe you can answer this. They also seem like they're taking it seriously. I mean, they're Valerie's nicer. Some it seems right to the kids, but they're straightforward. They're not telling you Good job when it wasn't right? Natalie Sammis 25:20 Yeah, well, what's actually funny on I never got to meet them. They only let the kids talk to them meet them. I saw them through like closed circuit TV with no audio feeds, because their parents had to have some sort of eye on their child, but I didn't even get to meet them. But when those kids would come back from tastings and judging things and just baking during the day, they would just say, oh, def came over and talk to me and he was funny, and oh, Valerie, like gave me a hug and I trusted the kids in that setting there. They're not the other I don't want to call it other people's judges names and other shows, but they're not harsh. They're not on kind but they are they are very, they're. Stacey Simms 26:03 Yeah. They seem to balance the fact that there weren't a kids show. Yeah. But if you're going to be good feedback, Natalie Sammis 26:07 yeah. If you're going to get that far, though, and how hard we work to get there, those kids can take it. They're not delicate flowers at this point. Stacey Simms 26:15 So of course, you can tell us how everything went in the end of the show, and you won't get in any trouble. even letting a word well done. I obviously can't ask you about the outcome. And I would never. Was it fun are you glad you did it? Elise Sammis 26:29 It was super fun. I'm so glad that I did it because it's such like a good experience. Like you got to meet so many friends. It was really like a lesson to me about patients. Because all those interviews and all the time that was like put into it. It was a lot and yet there's a lot of waiting. So that was a really good lesson for me. Do you still enjoy baking? Is that something you think about? Please do? Yes, I feel like I would always do baking is really fun. In like, it likes me be creative. Unknown Speaker 27:02 This is a good experience for your families. Natalie Sammis 27:04 It was a really good experience me and at least had a great time. We were kind of out there as buddies. And then my, my husband and the other three younger kids flew out for a couple days to visit us. And they decorated our hotel room with balloons galore and messages on the mirror of good luck. And the little kids and me, myself included this kind of trail along on her coattails and got to have this amazing experience. So it was wonderful. Stacey Simms 27:30 I have to ask you, she was three younger children. Do they know the outcome? Because I wouldn't trust my kids. No offense, I don't know your family. Unknown Speaker 27:41 No, they don't. Natalie Sammis 27:42 They even will sometimes, like try to guess and like act like it's real. They're like Oh, so and so did this and they probably did this or that and will be like, oh, whatever you want to think like we don't even validate it because the the what's the number at least that we will be sued if we let information that we Elise Sammis 27:58 will be sued 750,000 Natalie Sammis 28:00 Yeah 13 page contract saying that we will not disclose information so we didn't tell the five year olds Yeah. Stacey Simms 28:07 Anything something else exciting that you all are a part of and I guess this is pretty brand new is your clinical trial for horizon from insolent which is the hybrid closed loop system using Omnipod? So Natalie, can you share a little bit about what is being tested? Is it the full system with the phone app? Natalie Sammis 28:26 Yes, it's the full system. So it involves they gave us a brand new Dexcom transmitter that has the capabilities of obviously talking to the the Omnipod and to the new I don't do they call it a PDM Do you remember lease, I don't know. They still called the PDM. But it's basically a locked out Samsung and they provide that as well. Along with pods that look identical except for this little blue tab. That worked just the same. Also, what I really really like about this, the whole point of it is that you are able to put it in that Automatic mode they call it and with the auto mode, it's every five minutes the Omnipod index home will talk to each other and adjust the Bazell every five minutes as needed. What's cool about it too, is let's say you forgot your PDM you're locked out Samsung somewhere. Even if it has no range, if you could throw it off a cliff even for at least three days, your basal insulin would still be being adjusted because the Dexcom and Omnipod can talk to each other independently. Stacey Simms 29:29 Have you used any hybrid closed loop stuff before? Elise Sammis 29:32 No, this is our first time. Stacey Simms 29:34 All right. How many days? It's only been a couple of days. We started last Wednesday today. To 60 All right, though. Yeah. So have you seen a difference? Elise Sammis 29:42 Yes, it is crazy. Like even we went to Disney World last week, and I ate a ton of junk and everything. And I like went to sleep and it would be a little high but that's what your blood sugar does. And I went to sleep and for the night It would be like a straight line I was so amazing it was it's a big difference. Just the normal taking insulin every time you hear ringing Natalie Sammis 30:09 Yeah, it is just made me feel like less of a nag to like, oh at least check your blood sugar. Oh, I heard your alarm three times a baby. Have you looked at that like that is now silencing our neck. So I have high hopes for it and it really is giving us better control. She's in that crazy stage of life being 11 about to be 12 where it makes no sense. She goes to sleep it looks like she ate a box of Krispy Kreme Doughnuts for no reason and it's nothing but hormones and I don't know unexplained highs and lows. So already this week, it is refreshing to see so many more straight lines. I mean, there's still today we were stuck in the three hundreds for hours and that's just what it is. And but I'm really pleased so far and I'm ecstatic to be able to have it for longer than the three month trial period. Stacey Simms 30:57 All right. Before I let you go you said you have at Disney World, you ran in half marathon full marathon Natalie Sammis 31:04 on Team JDRF. The half marathon half marathon. Stacey Simms 31:07 Yep. So you went back to Disney World. You ran the team JDRF half marathon. Let me ask you first though at least what's it like for you to go back at Disney World? Do you think about diabetes you just have fun when you're there. Elise Sammis 31:18 I have like weird flashbacks kind of. Because I like like remember walking in that same spot being like, all frazzled, like what am I going to do? But then like going back and feeling like Well, I'm kind of normal now. Like, I got it under control. So like happy for me. Unknown Speaker 31:35 That's fantastic. So like, Natalie Sammis 31:37 I had some a mom, I'm going to get weepy no problem very silly. But to see it come full circle to leave Disney World that first time. And you know wonder what your future is going to be like wonder what your daughter's life is going to look like. It's kind of being scared out of your mind. And then to come back to the literally the same place in Disney. I don't know. It has some feel to it. Like, even if you had gone 20 years ago, there's something magic. There's that little spark of Disney that kind of remains the same. So it puts you right back where you were in this time to feel so much confidence. And I still remember on the half marathon, you turn a corner and run into the Magic Kingdom in the it was still dark because it's a ridiculously early marathon. But the castle was all lit up. And I had this like moment of like, Oh my goodness, we've made it so far. I am so happy where where we're at now. We're beating diabetes. I'm not being beaten by diabetes. And at that very moment, as I'm like, getting all bizarre and emotional. I look up and there's Team JDRF fans, right? They're saying that moment of like, oh, then I'm like, wait, I can't praise because I'm practice. So I stopped crying and I kept running and that was it. But yeah, it is a quite a journey, I guess, to come full circle and to go back in that way with so much support and so much like people behind you and helping you raise money for a cause, you know, to help your kid just live a happy, normal life. So it was great. Stacey Simms 33:18 Thank you both so much. I would say Best of luck, but it's all. So excited to watch. To see how this goes. I hope you'll come back and talk to us again. Thank you so much. Unknown Speaker 33:29 Thank you. Unknown Speaker 33:35 You're listening to diabetes connections with Stacey Simms. Stacey Simms 33:41 Alright, so fingers crossed for Elise and for Naima. I am taping this just after the second episode has aired. So who the heck knows what has happened since and what will happen going forward, but we will certainly be following cheering these girls on. Up next. Tell me something good but diabetes connections is brought to you by Dexcom. And you know, when Benny was very little, and his fingers would get wet, right? I'd give him a bath or we'd go in the pool. I would always notice his fingertips. And you know exactly what I mean, right? They were poked so much that they were just full of little little pinprick holes. You could see when they got wet. He is 15. Now, I don't really see his hands much anymore. But the other day, he's such a ding-a-ling. He was doing a project for school. He was using a hot glue gun and he you know, he burned himself a little bit. He's fine. He's fine. But when he came into show me I noticed again and every time I do see his hands, it just knocks me out. his fingertips look normal. We've been using Dexcom for six years now. And with every iteration, we've done fewer and fewer finger sticks, the latest generation, the Dexcom g six eliminates finger sticks for calibration and diabetes treatment decisions. Just thinking about doing 10 finger sticks a day in the past. Makes me so glad that Dexcom has helped us come so far. It's an incredible tool. If you're glucose alerts and readings from the G six do not match symptoms or expectations. Use a blood glucose meter to make diabetes treatment decisions. learn more, go to diabetes, connections calm and click on the Dexcom logo. It's time for Tell me something good. I've got two great stories one was sent to me via Facebook Messenger. The other one I saw in a Facebook group and if you've got a story for me, the easiest way is in my Facebook group at diabetes connections the group or email me let me know what's going on. What is good for you. Melissa wrote in “I have a Tell me something good. I've been listening to your podcast since maybe the summer and my four year old daughter was diagnosed March 28 2019. You are very optimistic. I haven't found a positive thing with my daughter's diabetes. Until today. It's been a horrible nine months with everything. We had our first dentist appointment Since diagnosis I've dropped a lot of ball since April, when the dental hygienist saw the pump. She knew what it was. I didn't have to explain. The conversation got direct to where we treat for Lowes, Skittles and starbursts and gummies. All bed for her teeth. When the dentist came to check, we had a discussion about the candies. He asked for her Endo's name, and he knew her. He's the pediatric chief of dentistry at the local Children's Hospital where her endo is affiliated, he texted an email to find better candies to use instead of the sticky kind. He went on to say collaborates with a lot of specialized doctors in the Children's Hospital to take better care of the kids. And he said get back to me after a discussion with the endo. I found the experience relieving that I wouldn't have to fight this battle. The dentist got it and my daughter was in good hands being cared for. I didn't think I'd ever find anything positive about our new normal. Today I did. So that's my Tell me something good.” Melissa, I'm getting emotional reading what you're saying here. Thank you. She writes for your podcast your optimism, and having somebody to tell the story to understand. Her daughter's name is Katarina, beautiful name. And she told me that it's been difficult to find care for her. You know when they're that little it can be so hard preschools, that kind of thing. But she went on to write that they have been blessed. She's been taken care of by her school nurse in an all day preschool. Her endocrinologist who they love and her mother, Melissa's mom, the grandma, who was able to watch her while the parents are at work, and now the dentist, she writes, “I didn't realize until this how lucky we have been. These are battles. I do not have to fight. Your optimism about any life with T1D is something I was envious of. I wanted some of the burden of this disease lifted off of my shoulders, and I was able to see that I have that after this visit. So I'm a little bit emotional here because of all the nice things she said and just having a place to share that with right. It's important to have people who get it and know important it is that the dentist didn't scold her and say you shouldn't be doing that. But said, Let's find a way to do this that works with Type 1 diabetes. And I think that's fantastic. But if it was a little strange for me to hear, even though I know it, I am very optimistic. I am very positive. I put these rose colored glasses on a lot and diabetes is hard. Type 1 is difficult. Being a parent of a kid with type one it's difficult to it's not all sunshine and rainbows over here. Trust me, I hope I'm open and honest about it. But at the end of the day, we've been really lucky. And I am optimistic and if you're feeling down or things are hard, no judgment, man. It is hard all around. I think I do an okay job of being honest and sharing the ups and downs. But I do know that my general outlook with type one is is an uplifting one. I hesitate to say it because I feel like it's an odd thing to say I feel like it puts me like I'm trying to be uplifting, but the truth is that's how it was presented. To us when Benny was diagnosed, and that makes all of the difference. When you're diagnosed on the very first day you meet a nurse who says, he's going to be fine. I have type one. And I have one child at home and I'm pregnant with my second and don't listen to the scary stories and don't listen to the hard stuff. It's fine. And then the next day, you pick up the phone and call three local people that you know who have kids with type one, because you've met them in your health reporting over the years, and they all say that he's gonna be great. My kids Is this my kid does that it's fine. It really changes than if you don't have those things. And I know how lucky I am to have them. So Melissa, thank you for reaching out. Thanks for a little bit of the gut check, as I like to say the rose colored glasses, but send us any good news and send us anything you want to vent. I hope you join the Facebook group. I'd love to hear more about Catarina. Our other Tell me something good this week comes from the Walt Disney World marathon weekend. That's where Natalie Sammis was when they said they were in Walt Disney World again. Very recently. She was running the half marathon. You talked about with all the jdrf people, they're getting emotional. Well, there's so much going on for that weekend. And I wanted to spotlight Julia Buckley, who's a friend of mine and I've mentioned her on the show before. She is a flight attendant and she is amazing. And she won the Spirit Award for jdrf. She ran on Team jdrf. I don't know how she does it. She flies all over the world comes home runs at Walt Disney World. She always has a smile on her face. So Julia, thank you so much for all that you do. I love some of the pictures maybe we'll throw some of those in the Facebook group as well but to everybody who ran at Walt Disney World, hats off man and now it's a fun race but it's still a lot of work. If you've got to tell me something good story, send it my way. I am so excited. We're getting more and more of these all the time or put them out on social media every week. So I'd love to hear from you tell me something good. Before I let you go, this is not a Tell me something good. This is a Tell me something embarrassing. So I mentioned the very beginning of the show that there were some technical difficulties when I recorded the interview with Elise and Natalie. And real quick, the way I taped the show, usually is that I do the interviews right from my home computer. I have a little setup little home studio. But the interviews are generally conducted via Skype, and then into my computer and then into a backup hard drive. Later on, I record this part of it like a round the interview, right and that goes right into the computer. But when I'm on the road, I don't want to slip my computer. It's only got one input for the microphone, and I had basically needed three inputs. my microphone, Natalie's mic, and Elise's mic. So I use I mentioned that hard drive. I use a recorder for all of you audio files out there, I use an H five zoom. It is a wonderful little recording device and i i only scratched the surface. I know I'm not using it to its full potential. I can plug two microphones in there. And I know I can do more with it. I could use a sound mixer or whatever. But generally when I have more than two microphones that I'm using a plug two and two Each five zoom. And then I have another recorder where I put on a lavalier mic and a little Clippy mics that you see on the evening news or maybe you've done an interview or recorded something for work and they put a little clip mic on your collar. That's a level layer mic, and I use that for myself. And here's the embarrassing part. The recorder I use when I do that is an old iPhone. And I'm not even sure how old it is. It might be a four, it might be three. It doesn't work anymore for anything else. I mean, I don't certainly have service on it. But it is a perfect dumb recorder. And it's like a tape recorder back of the day. And I had purchased over the years, these level ear mics that plugged into your phone. They're fantastic. But when you switch to the newer iPhones and you got rid of the headphone jack well guess where the lav mic plugged in. So I'm out of luck. I can't use my newer phone as a recorder if I want to use the lav mics. So we get to South Carolina. I'm setting everything up. I'm there early and speaking doing a book event before First I'm going to interview with Lisa, Natalie. So I set everything up. Everything sounds good. The stick microphones, the regular microphones, the one if you ever see pictures of me the ones that have the logos on them. Those are plugged in. They're working fine. They're a little low. I'm not really sure. I think maybe Elise was just very soft spoken. So I'm trying to adjust audio levels. I plug my stuff in, and the old phone, the editing software will not open. I use a program called twisted wave. And it's a great program. It's it's up to date, but the phone is so old. I think it was trying to update the the editing software. So I said, forget this. I'll just use my voice memo. So every phone has a voice memo app. It's fabulous for podcasting. It really works well. You can just record your voice for however long and then you email it to yourself. I have guests do this. Sometimes if it's a really short interview. I don't do it much. But you know, once or twice. I've had people do a short segment and a voice memo is great for them. So it looks like it's working. Everything's fine. We do the whole interview. voice memo is there I can hear it. It's recorded Elise Natalie are fine. I can't Email the file to myself. I can't get it off the phone. It's stuck on this old iPhone three, four. It's sitting there. It's It's wonderful. Amazingly, the microphones I was using picked up my voice enough so you heard the interview. It wasn't terrible. It probably wasn't great, I'm sure john kennis my editor worked a ton of magic on it every time he gets a file from me probably shakes his head and said, yes, this person obviously worked with a technical producer her entire radio career. So I'm now in the market for a new level ear mic, because if you know anything about audio, and you heard me say the h5 zoom, you know that you can also plug a lav mic or any kind of really smaller mic into another outlet very easily. And this whole thing could have been avoided if I had just done that. So that was my adventure. I figured we'd just soldier on right you just want the stories. You're less concerned with pristine studio sound, right? Haha. Well, look, I'm going on the road a lot this year. So I figured I better learn how to do that. And figure out how to better get it done. So stay tuned for the continuing saga of how the heck Stacy makes her lovely mix work. Alright, the next stop is not too far from me. I'm going to Raleigh the first weekend in February Raleigh, North Carolina for a jdrf type one nation summit. Then I am going to Maine the following weekend to South Portland, Maine, to talk to the main pea pods, very excited to talk to this group. And we have a very busy schedule after that. Thank you, as always, especially this week to my editor, john Drew kennis from audio editing solutions. Thank you for listening. Remember this Thursday, we do have another minisode coming out this week. I'm talking all about untethered, what that means, why we have loved it. I got a bunch of questions after I mentioned this in a couple episodes back. I talked about receiver a little bit which is a newer, long acting. So I'm going to go through untethered, what it means why it's not just for teenagers, and why we've had such good success. With it, and that is our next little mini episode. I'm Stacey Simms and I will see you back here on Thursday. Benny 46:11 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Sims media. All rights reserved. All wrongs avenged Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Learn More About The Content Discussed...No Boss Talk:https://nobosstalk.comMichelle Cunningham Website:https://MichelleCunninghamOnline.comMichelle’s Instagram:@directsalesmichelleThe Camp Elevate Facebook Group:hereBeth’s Instagram:@bethholdengravesBeth’s website:https://www.bethholdengraves.comProfit HER Way Course:https://www.bethholdengraves.com/profitKeynotes discussed:She's earned a six figure income consistently and led a network marketing team to over eight figures in sales, hosting home parties and Facebook parties. (01:31)I'm tired of saying I'm shy. Yes, you're shy, but don't say that to yourself. Like shy is just another word for insecure.(07:21)Then all of a sudden introvert Michelle who went from being shy to being bold is like we've got a system and it's working. So how did that look?(10:52)All I learned is change your story, make it super inspirational and then at the end give them two options.(13:14)I want to talk about owning your awesome, and that when someone owns their story, and someone has confidence, and it takes time.(16:10)When Did It Air...January 06, 2020Episode Transcript...Beth:Welcome to ‘You’re Not the Boss of Me’. If you are determined to break glass ceilings and build it your way, this show is for you. I’m your host Beth Graves and I am obsessed with helping you to not just dream it, but make the plan, connect the dots and create what you crave. Are you ready? Let’s get started.Hello. Hello and welcome to episode number 19. And Happy New Year, If you're listening to this in real time. So today I am so excited because I have been stalking Michelle Cunningham. She is my guest and you are going to love her Own Your Awesome. And you will walk away, literally fired up like pulling your car over to the side of the road and getting started taking action after this podcast. So let me tell you a little bit about Michelle and then we'll bring her on. She teaches network marketers around the world to successfully build their business through Facebook parties, home parties, and using the power of video. So after you see this wonder woman on YouTube, you are going to see the power and the impact. She's called the queen of video branding for direct sellers and teaches you to Own Your Awesome to have a massive impact for success. She's been involved in the industry for 16 years. She's earned a six figure income consistently and led a network marketing team to over eight figures in sales, hosting home parties and Facebook parties. So she's playful. She's on YouTube. She's so much fun. She's made an impact with thousands and thousands and thousands of network marketers. And so here she is. Let's talk to Michelle Cunningham.So, Hey everyone. I am so excited because I have been stalking. She's my new best friend. She doesn't know it yet. I sent her like a half a heart necklace. Her name is Michelle Cunningham and I literally have been watching her for months and months and months, obsessing over her content, her energy, her YouTube channel. And so, you know, I asked for everything so I thought, I'm just going to ask Michelle, she's super famous if she would hop on this podcast to help us hear more about how she's built her business in direct sales and thousands of others with her quirky, honest, but deliberate presence on YouTube and on social media, and just being an awesome pink princess. So hello Michelle!Michelle:Hi. That was quite the introduction.Beth:Well you didn't know like I always like to admit that I'm stalking someone because it's just weird if you don't, right?Michelle:Yeah, well I stalk people too so I totally get it.Beth:I know I just, I study, I love to study success and so I know that we have some people that may not have been introduced to you yet and now they are. And I'm super excited because after meeting you and talking with you, and we're going to give you guys this offer at the end, is I'm going to do the YouTube thing this year, and I have like seriously dark videos that are sharing my sticky note challenge and you've inspired me. So can you give us a little bit of history? I know that for those of you that, you know I said it on the intro, but give us the real version. How did you get started? When did you start realizing that the video presence was really a thing to build the business? So give us the scoop. Who are you? What do you do? Yeah, all that jazz.MichelleAll right, well I'll give you the quick background because I feel like a background is really important. I grew up incredibly poor. My mom was a single mom so I came from very little. I had two brothers and myself and everything I've ever had for in life I've had to pay for on my own. And so I grew up always wanting to be like the kids who just had like Pantene shampoo and fresh apples. So just to put it in perspective, like where I live now and what my life is like is not what I grew up as. And so I'm very thankful for life, the journey. But I'm also, it's what drove me. It was realizing like, I don't want to have a moldy basement and like snakes in my basement and have a house, I'm embarrassed by. I want to have more and so...I went to college, paid my way through college, and then entered direct sales into my life. I got my first job as a pharmaceutical sales rep and then I landed at an event, and it was a direct sales event. My coworker's wife invited me and I'm there in this hotel room, the holiday Inn, and there's a lady in the room claiming to make six figures. Another one's a millionaire, another one's driving a free car. And I'm like, dude, this is either a fantastic opportunity or this is a scam. So I went home and I told my mom at 23 years old, and she goes, Oh yeah, honey, a hundred percent scam. Do not get involved. I was not doing it. And then a week later I remembered that I was 23 and at 23 you don't listen to your mom. So I signed up anyway. And that was 16 years ago, 17 years ago.And so when I joined, there was no text message. There was no Facebook. And so they said, how you're going to build your business, honey, 23 year old, you're going to go up to strangers in parking lots, and like, Oh, that's horrifying. People doing that. Like I'm an introvert, I don't like to bother you. I don't like to be in people's way. It's just who I am. I want everyone to like me. That's just my personality, right? So the idea of approaching a stranger and having them yell at me was like my worst nightmare. And so I, for the next six years, did not tell anyone. I was involved in network marketing like for six years. But in that six years I studied it. I looked up ideas, I ordered my full inventory, I was ready to go, but I did nothing for six years. I think I held like a party or two.Beth:Wait, wait, wait, wait. I gotta repeat that. You guys six years of studying. And so many people are like, Oh, I just, I mean I was that person, Michelle, that I bought every kit, signed up for a billion things and didn't study, didn't do a thing until, you know, when I launched the current business that I'm in. But I didn't know it was six years. What made you keep holding on?Michelle:Yeah, it's just a fantastic part of the story. And it always, when I'm sharing in front of an audience, they're like, you gave me hope. Because I've been, you know, 5 years, I haven't started. I'm like, Oh you're fine, you're actually ahead of me. So for six years I loved the dream of it, but I was too shy and too nervous to approach people, you know? And I was like, but I loved it. But I was like, but I can't. And so it was self talk, this negative self talk that I had, that I don't want to bother people. I don't want to, you know. And, in that six years I tried, it's not like I did nothing. It's like I'd study an idea and then I call my recruiter. I'm like, maybe let's do your mall thing. You said we could do a scavenger hunt.Then we'd go do the mall thing. And so we'd go up to people and I actually met a lady who said, Oh my gosh, your sell for that company? I would love to host a party with you. And I'm like, really? Okay. But I got home and I was too nervous to call her. Talk about, this is not going to work. And I called her the day before the party to confirm because I was nervous. But she was like, I never heard from you. What would make you think I am going to host a party with you? And I was like, you're right. Okay, bye. So little like mouse Michelle. One day I made a decision at 29 I was fed up enough with my corporate job and I think that's when you see someone make a big change where I was like, you know what, I'm tired of being a mouse.I'm tired of saying I'm shy. Yes, you're shy, but don't say that to yourself. Like shy is just another word for insecure. There's all of these things. I was telling myself they were not serving me and I thought, you know what? What makes me different from that girl over there that's wildly confident? She just acts confident. Why don't I just start doing that? Why don't I just like stop caring and let's just like do this? Because I just made that very conscious decision. And it was January, 2009 yeah, 2009, and I went online and I found someone that worked for the company that I had signed up with. She was not my recruiter, but they have a we'll help you no matter what thing. So she, when I met her, what was amazing about this lady is, she changed my life forever because when I met her, she's 4ft 11in, tiny. She wears short, spiky hair. She doesn't wear a ton of makeup. She's not loud. She's not bold. She's not crazy. She suffers from social anxiety disorder. She fainted at her first home party.Yes, And over three weeks. Yeah. You're like, that doesn't sound like a good mentor. But see, she earned over $3 million in her career and was driving the top level car. And I was like, Oh, okay, so you're a little broken. I'm a little broken. If you can do this, maybe I could do this. And so it was in meeting her, then I met someone that wasn't perfect. Sometimes you meet people in this industry and they're perfect and they talk perfect and they smile and perfect and you're like, that's scary and weird. So she was normal. And so she taught me her system. She said, if you don't want to call people then just text people, you know, just do whatever it's going to work for you. Just find a way. And I was like, wait, I can do that. And so I actually started texting people, in that first month I made $1,000 not knowing what I was doing.Six months later, I made over $5,000, built a team of 50. A few months after that I had earned a car. That month I earned another free insurance, and then earned another car a few months later. And then four years later I learned a system that taught me how to recruit like crazy. And I taught that to my team and we went from a hundred people on my team to over a thousand and it changed my life forever. We became an eight figure sales team. My team did over eight figures in sales and just crazy, crazy. But it's just crazy to think that for that long I struggled, but it was just one day to saying, you know what? I'm fed up enough. We're just going to like make this work. Yeah. So that was the beginning.Beth:Well, and okay, a couple of things that I love is, you notice that she wasn't perfect and I think that that just like made my face light up. Even though we're on a podcast, you can't see it, because that's what I think that vulnerability of you on video is. You're the real deal in showing up and saying, we may not be perfect. And I say that all the time, is like I built my business with sticky notes because I couldn't figure out how to use the Excel spreadsheet, and I've got like, my drunk uncle was driving me around when I was trying to use systems. And you also said find what works for you but have some way that you are booking, like in your case, booking the parties, booking the shows, booking the online events. So you said something to that. I know everyone was like yeah, pulling over to the side of the road, getting out their notes on their phone. You said you developed a system that worked for your team. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Because that's a Renegade. You are in a company that had been around forever, like the beginning of time. Everyone knew that person that had earned that car in town and then all of a sudden introvert Michelle who went from being shy to being bold is like we've got a system and it's working. So how did that look? Can you share a little bit of what that time looked like? And what you guys all did?Michelle:Absolutely. So that fourth year I had been sitting at a team of about a hundred. I was pretty consistently making about $5,000 a month and I heard a speaker that year that said, or at an event. And the one thing that I took away, she said, Hey guys, I believe that while you're on this earth you should make as much money as humanly possible. And I was like, wait, where's she gonna go with this? I don't know if that, you know, the the poor girl in me. It was like, I don't want to, I don't know if I want to hear this...because I believe that you should live completely debt free. And I was like, okay, I can get on board with that. And then I also believe you should have tons of savings for your future. I said okay, I like that you said. And I then believe you should live below your means.I do. I like to shop at target and resale shop. And you should give back frequently, generously, and anonymously. And that last line of frequently, generously and anonymously, I said to myself, Michelle, you need to step up your game. You could be helping so many more people right now. You have enough to provide for you and your family. How many more humans could you help if you decide to step up your game because the fact that you got to where you are, what if we did that same amount of crazy work like over and over and over again. And I thought, Hmm, I need it. I need to find something. And it was like a God thing. I was on Facebook that night and this cute little blonde appeared on my screen and it was a Facebook ad and she was just pretty, I just clicked on her and I said, let me see what she's all about, cute little blonde thing. And it was Sarah Robbins from Rodan and Fields, the number one seller for Rodan and Fields, and she's making like $1 million a month. I mean, it's just like something, or million dollars. I don't, it's something so insane that you're like, okay, let me learn from you a little human. So I clicked on that.Beth:I love, Love you to learn from you little human. I love it.Michelle:Yes literally, because she was just a little thumbnail is what I mean. She was a little person on my screen. I clicked on the little human and I ordered her book, which is How to Rock Your Network Marketing Business.Beth:That was my first book! I bought too! Oh my gosh, this is crazy. Yeah, that's it. It's tattered and it's highlighted and every, yes, yes, yes. Okay, keep going. I love it.Michelle:So I read the book and all I learned, you don't have to go read the book, I'll just tell you what it is. All I learned is change your story, make it super inspirational and then at the end give them two options. You can join my team today, if you decide not to do that, you can take home products. Those were two things I was missing. I was missing the inspirational story. I had a ho hum story. It was kind of inspirational but not really. So I changed my story to be like, I was the number one person in all of my company. I Owned My Awesome. So I made it like I was in a play with this amazing story and I'm glad to share it if you wanna hear how I roll it out. But yeah, that story. And then at the end I said option one, join my team.Oh, and that's the best deal of all. And then if you decide not to do that, you can take home products. And I usually was just selling product, product, product. And then after I would invite them to meet for coffee after they liked the product. This whole long three week process, which sort of was effective, but I was like, wait, if I could sign people up on the spot. And so I rolled this out for the first time in March, 2000 and gosh, I don't remember what year. But it was, I don't know, six years ago. And I roll this out and my first appointment, I had a lady over to my house, tried the product, I did my arrogance story at the beginning and it was, it was like arrogant, but I was doing what I was reading in the book and I had practiced it all day. And at the end she goes, okay. And I give her options. She goes, okay, so here's what I've decided. I'd like to join your team and I'd like to buy the whole skin care system.And I was like, ah, what the heck just happened? I'm like, that's not definitely supposed to happen. I'm like, you do want it? Yeah. And in my head I'm like, just Michelle, write it up, sign her up, sell her the thing, just do it. So I do. And she goes home inspired, which is what was different. She went home inspired and she told her husband about this inspirational woman that lived a few towns over that was on fire. It was, you know, changing your life. And the next day she called, my husband wants me to get the whole package. He wants me to get started now, because he was inspired. I had never had someone do that before. And it was in that moment that I believe like God was knocking on my head like Michelle, do more of that be loud, because by you being loud and you being proud, you can impact people's lives, you can change their financial situation.And so I had to stop being introverted Michelle and say, okay, I need to be awesome because by me being awesome, I can impact lives. And so the next lady came over that day with her husband and at the end her husband goes, yeah, you should just sign up. And so she joined my team that month. Following that system, I recruited 22 reps personally and my team followed the same system and they recruited another 20. So in one month we brought in 42 new reps to my team, of like a hundred, that's sitting at a hundred for four years. And I was like, that was awesome. Let's do that again. And so we did, we did it again, did it again. And that year I earned the top level car. We had five people become the top 1% of the company. I mean everything changed, right? I went to London that year. I mean just everything, massive movement because of a tiny little shift Owning Our Awesome lead with the opportunity to default to the products. It was such a simple idea. Yet it made such an impact.Beth:I was like, I have chills because so many times that I want to talk about Owning Your Awesome. And that when someone owns their story, and someone has confidence, and it takes time. Those of you that are listening today and you're thinking, but I haven't had the success yet. I don't have that voice that Michelle has or that Beth has. You can be that person, and there's visualization, and seeing yourself on that stage, and there's creating that story that allows you to Own Your Awesome. So I think you might be able to walk us through, if someone wants to walk away from this podcast and Own They're Awesome, and they're being coached by you. what would you tell them?Michelle:I would say to them, and I said this in my group the other day. I said, guys, what is the most you've ever sold at one party or in one day? What is the dollar amount? One girl wrote $1600 and another girl wrote $300 another girl wrote $800, and I said, do you have any idea that the average person out there, that an extra $200 a month would dramatically change their financial situation? Like do you have any idea? And the fact that you can host the party or you can be in front of humans and then two hours of your time you can make $200? That is mind blowing to most humans. That is literally mind blowing. And so if you have a story like that, like in the chat when I shared this, girls were like, Oh yeah, I made $800 in two hours. I'm like, you should be at the every appointment. Yeah, like hanging from the roof, swinging on a Tarzan rope saying, guys, I'm a big deal!I made $800 dollars, I made $400 in two hours. Whatever it is, that is such a huge story. And so putting that dollar amount into your story can make such a huge impact and can really inspire someone. So I always tell people, throw a dollar amount in there. What did you do in a two hour time span or in a day time span, one week I made this money, whatever it is, put your marketing hat on. And you know, as women, we're taught to not be arrogant, but I would say, no, no, this is Owning Your Awesome, and this is going to change lives. So put that away, the arrogance part of it and just Own Your Awesome and share those stories.Beth:And I just had this vision, because I've talked Michelle into being at real life camp. We're going to have a Tarzan rope and we are going to do an Own Your Awesome activity. We're swinging from the rope. I mean I think we should have one in our offices. I love it. Okay. So we're at this point of your business, you're teaching women to own their stories, to lead with the business, to really be real about what's happening in the direct selling network marketing industry. And that was what I needed to know for me to finally say yes and go all in what was possible and why not me? So you've got this team and you're rolling and a lot of what you were doing because of your business was a party plan business. And then you transitioned to a lot of online coaching, training and parties.Can you talk about that transition for those people that might not have the opportunity? And I always, I want to preface this, you guys, you always have the opportunity to be in a person's living room. And I know that we see a lot of things that say, build online. Never leave your house, never talk to your neighbor. But I will always tell you to earn multiple seven figures. I was willing, I wanted to be connecting with that neighbor because I know that in person and online sharing what Michelle just shared, swinging from the Tarzan rope, changing lives is in person. It's online, it's everywhere. If you are passionate, right Michelle?Michelle:It's 100%, and I built so much in my business in person, you know, then I did transition. I did a lot online. I had a lot of success online. But I, most of my clients, all that reorder from, it's all mostly in person. Yes I do get people that find me on YouTube and stuff like that. But it started, and I yes, I 100% agree with you in person. So great. And it's so good for introverts like me to be in front of people because if I'm not in front of people, I find for me it's like a muscle, I can get just quiet and not really want to be around people. And so for me, I kind of force myself to be in front of people to learn human interaction. Because I just sometimes, I just want to be home. I just want to do my thing. So getting out and challenging yourself will make you a more confident person. That's what I found and it brought me success.Beth:Well and I say to people, if I told you that your income would double, triple, that you would impact your family's life, be able to impact the lives of others because you were willing to go to that event, to go and meet with that one person. I remember early in my career, we had had a tough summer and I was tired and I was supposed to get on an airplane and go to Vegas and there was a team growing there and I made it. I think that was when I saw a rising leader, I would get on an airplane and go and meet that person in person, meet their friends, help with the event. It was an investment I was willing to make and I almost canceled this event. I thought, Ugh, I don't really want to fly that. And then my husband said, they are responsible for the money that you're making, your personal actions are, but this team is waiting for you.And I have to say, Michelle, I heard a story at that event from one of the promoters on my team and I journaled about it. And it was how the product had helped her overcome grief. And she shared with me how much she wanted to tell me that in person. And I literally said, I will never miss the opportunity to be in front of people. And it has been what drives me. So let's fast forward, because we're now quite a few years later and now you're this YouTube sensation. You've got this following that is like crazy cult like. You needed to get your systems into the hands of many. You are called to do that. So how did it go from your team to worldwide people just finding you and saying, Michelle, give me what you've got. How did you make that transition and how does your business look today?Michelle:So, it's such a great question because it wasn't ever my intention. I believe that God had a hand in this. Like there's no other good explanation and you know, depending on what your beliefs are, the universe whatever. But literally, six years ago, as an introvert, I said I'm going to start a YouTube channel. Why? Because at that time I was a little bored with my business. So you know how you have a month where you're like, I just feel bored. What can I do in my spare time? I was bored. My son was like three, so I wasn't exhausted and I think it was pregnant, like I'm going to start a little YouTube channel. Or maybe it was right before I started to get pregnant with the next one. And so I have a little, you know, I had downtime, and I don't like downtime.I don't like to watch movies. I get bored, I like to work. And so I'll start a YouTube channel, I'll just make a video. And initially I was like, I don't know what I'll make it about. Maybe I'll make it about organizing. And they made a few videos. That channel still exists. It has 900 followers. I made eight videos about organizing. It's the stupidest videos ever because I don't like organizing, not like I have a very organized office, but my house, you know it's not. So it was funny though, I was making that channel and it stressed me out cause I had to clean before I filmed, and then I was like this isn't my jam. And then one day I was like, but I really like to talk about network marketing and direct sales. Why don't I just do that?Until I started to put out what I was doing. I was just sharing my tips and I could not believe it, but people were like messaging me at 3:00 AM in the morning, and my inbox saying, Michelle, your video just totally changed my life. It changed my business. I love you forever. Oh my gosh, you're so amazing. Do you have more stuff? And I was like, I'll make more videos, I'll make some more. And I just literally for six years, I just kept putting out new videos. I tried to aim for once a week putting out a video, and that was my goal, and I didn't always hit it. I mean, you know, it was sometimes two weeks or three weeks, but I just tried to put out content. Okay. I did not think anything else beyond that. Never thought it would ever turn into else. Well, crazy.But I got a call from a company, they said, Hey Michelle, we found you on YouTube. Can you come and train our sales force or a brand new startup network marketing company? I was like, Whoa, that's awesome. And I was like, sure. And they're like, how much is your fee? I said to my husband, how much? He's like, just say something outrageous. I'm like, well, I wouldn't go there for, I'll say $2,500.00. He's like, yeah, just say that. I said that. And they said, sure. And I was like, Oh, my word, this is awesome. Right? So, say that, go and speak to the company. And a few weeks before I go, they said, Michelle, do you have any training materials? We'd like to purchase your training materials? And I was like, purchase, like I just do free training.What's this purchase stuff? Okay, yeah, I'll make a CD. So I literally went into my son's bedroom. I don't know why, that's where I recorded it. I just remember it must have been quiet in there. But I recorded my first training. It was how to generate leads and then I recorded another one, how to host a home party, how to recruit like crazy, all my secrets on three CDs and I had some artwork made and I got a thousand of them printed. And those have gone on to sell. I think 7,000 of the lead generation have been sold, you know, just crazy numbers. But it all started with that little thing and I was like, Oh, I could sell something. That's interesting. And so then, this January I decided to start running Facebook ads. I was like, maybe these could help more people.So I started to run Facebook ads and then we started to sell like a really lot of them and I was like, well maybe I could make a course. So this new business of mine just kind of started this year where it was like half CDs, but maybe I'll do some courses. So you know, I host Facebook live parties. My first one I ever hosted, we recruited 20 people in 45 minutes and we sold over $20,000 as a team. And everyone was asking me how I did that. I said, I'll make a little course about it called Mastering the LIVES. I made this course and put it out there. And I realized at that moment that when that course launched, I realized that God had said to me, Michelle, your calls are your next level, like I know that I gave you the success in network marketing but now you are called to something bigger.And I like pushed back for 10 months. I did. I said, you know what? No, I'm just, I'll just keep doing both. And I was doing both and trying to manage team and then building courses and, and it was a lot, but I just was like, no, I would go into the top of network marketing. That's what I'm doing. And he's like, but you don't understand. I've given you like literally seven times the income than this other thing. What are you doing? And so I had to honor that and say, you know what? I think you're right. I think I love training people. I love making videos. I love changing lives. I just want to do that. And I have literally like, that's all I want to do. And I made the very difficult decision to leave a team of a thousand reps, eight figures, sales team.Like, I mean, people are like, have you lost your mind? I'm like, well no. I mean it sounds silly that you would leave something this big, but I grew something that was infinitely bigger that required less of my energy. That 100% filled my cup. Yeah. And brought me 100% joy. And I live a life now that I'm like, this is my dream. I'm with my kids all the time. I make videos, I change lives and I absolutely love it and I never thought any of that would happen. But I will tell you, I have, I talked about this with Beth and she'll reveal, but I've got something coming out that reveals how I use video, and not knowing, I just did it to be nice. But that video changed my life forever, and my financial situation forever. And I now am so passionate about showing other people the power of video. You just put out free content, you help people and you accidentally make a following. It was all an accident, but it was a pretty awesome accident that happened to me and I want to show people how to accidentally do what I've done because it's awesome.Beth: I love it. And so when I look back at give back frequently, generously, and anonymously, you are not, you know, God's knocking on your head saying, look, we need to impact more people so that we can make this, not just you giving back in big ways, but teaching others to give back in big ways. The other thing I love Michelle is, you went to the top, you learned to lead, you learned what the frustration was of your people. So that, as a mentor and a coach, like you waited to coach until you had basically done it all and said, okay, I'm called to do more to impact more. And you did show up in my feed on a Facebook ad and I saw the pink office of yours. And I was like, who is this? Who is this? She's so darn cute. Who is this little person? I need to learn from her! Who is this little human? And there's so many ways that our lives run parallel. And so I'm really, really excited. Two, I'm diving in to your video launch course. We're going to put in the show notes, and what is it called again? What's the specific name of it?Michelle:It's called video creator classroom. Yes. And there's also a Facebook group.Beth:So I'm all in because one of the things entrepreneurial add that I have is, Oh, I'll start a YouTube channel. Oh, I'll do this. Oh, I'll do that. So I'm saying it here, because then people will hold me to it. That my commitment is to go all in with podcast content and YouTube content. So I'm all in, I can't wait to get started on the content and I'm following directions. I'm not doing it my way. I'm going to learn from the best. And I hope those of you listening, I can understand that free content. I have people even with my YouTube channel that will grow this year, but I made a tiny little video before we even knew how to turn our phones or have ring lights. And that one video has so many views. And I've recruited many people who have reached out to me to say, Hey, could I join your team? And I was like, what? Like out of the blue, right? You get these messages. So imagine that content that we find. So it's free, right? It's free to be on YouTube.Michelle:It's free. I had a girl, and I forgot to share this, she found me online and joined my team and added over 700 people to my downline. 700 people. And so yeah, those were the things as it was making the channel, I was like, wait, this is awesome. So you know that was happening. I was like, I can't believe this is happening. So the blessings that came from the videos, I mean there's no way my team would have grown to the size it did without her and without a few hundred people in it found me online.Beth:So this power of YouTube brings you high quality leads. and the lesson I'm taking away is do it before you feel ready. Going into your son's room, making that CD back in the CD days and saying yes before you had a perfect presentation. And then that shift that was like, you know what, I need to impact more people and I need to get out of my comfort zone and build a life for my family and for the legacy. I love those pieces. So we're going to close with one question and those of you that want to join us in this course, it is going to be Epic. I'm telling you. And we're going to give you a link below that you can get in because it's pretty new, right Michelle? This is like the first group, brand new.Michelle:Yep. So we had our pilot group go through it, and it is so great. It's just fantastic and people are just loving it and life changing things happening. So exciting. So, so yes, now the pilot groups run through it. It's ready to launch. So it's gonna launch in the next few weeks here. We're just getting all the emails ready and everything. But yeah, it's going to be fantastic.Beth:I love it. And where else? Tell them how to find you on YouTube. Find you on Instagram, Facebook, all the good things. Where do we find you? And then I have one big question to close with, so don't get nervous.Michelle:Okay, got it. So @directsalesmichelle is me on YouTube and on Instagram. And MichelleCunningham.com is my website. I just got my full name. I was so excited.Beth:That's really exciting. Did you wait a long time for your name or did you have to negotiate it? Okay.Michelle:Someone owned it. There was a girl that was a stripper that owned it to be totally honest, and I know, and then I called Wix a few weeks ago and they're like, ma'am, your name is available. I'm like, no, a stripper owns it. He goes, no, no, it's available. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, yeah, I have it for $600 or $700. I'm like, well, I kind of want that. I'm like, you think I can get a deal? And anyway, the stripper didn't give me a deal, but yeah, it doesn't matter. I got my name now.Beth:So a stripper owned your YouTube chat, I mean your website.Michelle:Yeah. Oh yeah. So I own Michelle Cunningham online, and then now I have Michelle Cunningham, but I haven't transferred everything over. But Michelle Cunningham redirects you to Michelle Cunningham online.Beth:I love it. I love it. Okay, here is your question. For people listening today that are ready, that need to take an action there where you were during those years of sitting around thinking, yeah, one day, maybe I'll do it. Still doing what they're not loving that they're doing. What are three things that after they finish their workout because we're in their ears or we're in the car. Three things that you can tell them to do today that will lead them to do that success that you are speaking of. Getting to the top of the company, doing all the things, having the freedom?Michelle:So three things. Number one, I would set a schedule, my life dramatically changed and I said, you know what, I'm going to hold appointments Friday at 6:00PM, 8:00PM and Saturday at 10, 12 and 2. I set a schedule and that was it. Those are the little windows that I worked, but that made such a huge impact. I got so much done in the Friday, Saturday that I worked my business. I booked appointments all during the week, but I knew on Friday and Saturday that's when I got dressed, got out of the house, did my thing. So that's number one. Set a schedule and make it. I used to do Tuesday afternoon, Friday mornings, Sunday, Thursday. And my family is like, are you going to be home today? Like no one knew anything. So when they finally knew every Friday, mommy's busy, every Saturday, mommy's busy.There was so much harmony that brought to our family. Number two, I would say positive affirmations all day long. I think as women we just are always overthinking things. So I think fill your cup with things that motivate you. I like to watch crazy people online. Gary Van Der Chuck, he swears a lot, but I do like his message. And so finding people online that have a powerful message. The Tony Robbins of the world, the Sarah Robbins, the really motivational people out there. Follow those people and absorb what they say. And my last tip would be run your own race. Run your own race. Don't look left or right. I think that when you think about what other people are doing and you're worried about what they're doing, it doesn't matter. They're on their own train track. You're on your own train track and your train track is moving. Your train is moving on your track at the rate it's supposed to move and you can make it move faster.But it doesn't matter what people do to the left or right of you. And that includes the people on your team. One person cannot dictate your success. Other people's trains have taken a break and they're having a snack somewhere. That's just fine. You keep your train moving. And so I always stayed in a very happy state because I personally worked my business and I didn't look left or right. I'm so disconnected to the world like, you know what's going on in the world. I don't watch the news, I don't watch other people and I just do my thing because I'm out here just Owning My Awesome. And I recommend the same for you because you can't really think when you don't know anything. It's great.Beth:Okay, the name of this podcast episode will be, Own Your Awesome with Michelle Cunningham. I have notes covering my desk. Michelle. This connection is so amazing because I know that, I already decided we're friends forever. Okay?Michelle:Done. When am I getting my necklace? I want to get the hat. It's actually really funny. That would actually be really fun. I totally feel the same connection to you. So like I want you to know, it's not like you're the weird friend that just likes me. I feel the same way. I also, I'm feeling like, my new best friend. I totally love her. So we're still on the same page and you're such a rock star, and you're so amazing in all that you do. And I just commend you and I am really, I've got to learn about podcasting from you because I want to start one and I've been dragging my feet a little, so it'll be good.Beth:I'll teach you podcasting. It's been such a great connection and so I want to challenge you guys to...I'm just, I'm going to go over, set a schedule positive affirmations and run your own race and just get started. Michelle is a perfect example. Before she was ready, before she had a plan, before she had the perfect pink office. But you guys are gonna be so jealous of the pink office and just do it. Get yourself started and ready and put out the free content and Own Your Awesome. Thank you Michelle. And we'll catch you guys all next week on You're Not the Boss of Me.Oh my goodness. How awesome. How awesome was Michelle today you guys? So let me just ask you to do this for me. Let's get some Instagram love today. So please screenshot this and tag us both @bethholdengrades and @directsalesmichelle and let us know that you loved this episode today. Also, there is still time. This is so exciting that ProfitHER Way is launching this month. We have so much to do and preparing your profit plan, helping you to make money your way. So go ahead and go over to bethholdengraves.com/profit if you are ready to be a part of a powerful mastermind and getting your plan in place for 2020. And as always, I'll see you over at Camp Elevate.Thanks so much for hanging with me today on the podcast and remember, you can create what you crave. If you're looking for a supportive sisterhood, I would love to see you over in our free Facebook group. As most of you know, I love camp. It's part of, 'You're Not the Boss of Me' because when we're building this thing, we're doing this thing. We need a supportive sisterhood and I also crave more fun and more connection. Join us at camp over in the Facebook world, thecampelevategroup.com or just click on the link above and we will see you around our campfire and help you to create what you crave.

We've played a load of games this past year both modern and retro. Whether it's a fresh release or just new to us; we break down our 2019 games of the year. Episode Transcription: The below is a machine based transcription of this episode. Sorta like Skynet if it was 2 years old, and wanted a cookie. Take it with a grain of salt. Jake 0:00 Welcome everybody to press be to cancel. Today's a special episode for us.Palsh 0:06 Wait, what? Really?Jake 0:07 Well yeah, I know we do have some special moments. tender loving, caring moments. Don't we Palsh?Palsh 0:14 okay man.Palsh 0:16 I love you.Jake 0:17 Not on the podcast too soon to sayWulff 0:21 it again.Jake 0:42 We have a special episode today it's very special for us. We've been doing this for a couple of months now. And as is tradition for a lot of podcasts they have a game of the year episode and that's what we're going to do we're gonna start a tradition off right. I've had a few drinks says got back from work Christmas party. So this will be interesting. This is breastfeeding cancels, gave me the year edition. Now what's different for us? is we are we're not just a retro gaming podcast, but it's definitely a large component. So when I say this is our game of the year, we've selected two games, and they could be retro or modern. were easy.Wulff 1:17 Okay? More so new to us.Jake 1:20 Exactly new to us. So I am I am sick Jake. I'm this week's host. I'm not alone. Of course. I'm as always I'm joined by our usual crew. werewolf. How you doing?Wulff 1:30 I'm okay. How you doing?Jake 1:36 Was that? I'm sorry. DidWulff 1:38 you did you want me to go on longer? No,Jake 1:40 we still Burt? Burt. You're yelling. And of course, we're also joined by the Miss Piggy the Kermit guy prime in the retro therapy. How you doing?GP 1:50 I'm doing good. I've actually got two games picked out for every year since 1984. So I may have misunderstood the assignment. You're going to be late.Jake 2:00 Yeah, but knowing you half those games are ones I think are bad. So it's okay.GP 2:05 Yeah, 991 for 2003 hot garbage,Jake 2:10 yet just completed the era of hot garbage. Mega Man one, honestly. And pulse. We're joined by Paul's one and nine. How are you sir? I'm kind of shy now because he said stuff I shouldn't have at the beginning of the. I'm good. Let's just keep going. I know we've buried our hearts to each other today on this podcast. And we'll flip it over to bearing our hearts for a couple games. So I guess we've all picked our personal you know, Game of the Year. new to us. That's great. But let me We'll start with our our secondaries are on honorable mentions, and kind of go around the table and get everybody's take on that game. So let's spin the wheel. Of coursePalsh 2:50 you can add to that at a later since youJake 2:53 GP you want to start what's your honorable mention for Game of the Year 2019.GP 2:56 I hope this is allowable because it's it's Still in test phase like pre release kind of mode, but I have to mention savage the shard of gozen by our friend tober prime.Jake 3:08 NoGP 3:10 Bionic Commando.Jake 3:16 No Go for man savages. I mean toller prime is a fantastic dude, man and I love I only played five minutes of his game, but I've watched a lot of people play it. I've been saving it for myself personally, because it's early access. But if you love it, please tell us it's awesome.GP 3:29 It is awesome. And knowing tober is cool. And having watched him the game be created is a big connection that I have to admit even without all of that just completely, objectively or subject whichever it is where it's just looking at it for what it is. It is truly a fun experience. A very well composed and thought out game. If I if I'm not playing it, I've thought about playing it pretty much every day since I've had access to it. I have a schedule of things I try to keep but I played a lot of my downtimeWulff 3:58 outside of the stream is what I'm saying. So I want to jump in on this one since GP mentioned it. I also put a few hours into savage and this is a game I cannot wait to be finished, like yes, I really, really look forward to playing this in its final form. I kind of haven't gone back to it for that very reason like I bought it earlier I want I wanted to be a supporter of the game, it ended up being badass. I love what was there, but I didn't complete what was there because I want to save the game for when it's done. Like I'd like to go back and I'm sure it'll be quite different by that point. But it'll still be like different not mechanically but drop rates and maybe a couple of stats will affect the play differently. But other than that, I mean it'll be the same game that's it's the bones are there alreadyJake 4:45 piles of both for those who haven't played it? What about this game? makes it so standout?GP 4:50 I guess it's retro inspired. So it's definitely like a platform type. There's a lot of greats, kind of like quest and there's an overworld map and things like that. That's kind of me Innocent of dare I say like Final Fantasy six when it comes to the overworld The gameplay is fun the I don't say the RPG aspect because I that's that's a big thing to say. But you know you do go down to town you talk to a lot of the townspeople and there's multiple threads to pull on. from the get go like you've got the general idea the opening scenes are very well done. But then once you start, you have different paths that you can do so in that way, it's very choose your own adventure, and that's kind of the RPG aspect of it. But then just with with as werewolf mentioned, the stats, the different ways of lining up your inventory the way that you want to customize your playability. It just fires across a lot of different cylinders. And on top of that, it's a beautiful looking game. But yeah, so for me, that's what it is. It's great. It's kind of the old school retro style platformer with some RPG elements that just it delivers. And for as much as I've played it, I still feel like I've only scratched the surface. I think there's going to be a lot of replay value in The game whether or not you want to play lightly or really go deep, and try to try to get everything done.Wulff 6:05 It's like Zelda two with I don't know, pick your favorite EGA vanja Yeah, and since those two smash together and you're good Symphony of the Night Aria sorrow or do you play any of them like, pick your favorite one and it'll probably it's like scratch that itch. But it's it's like that smash together with Zelda two and that butGP 6:25 still completely original. Like that's the other part of it is for as much as it kind of harkens to some of these things. Because retro is a category you know that we think of it as it's hard not to reference things that it reminds us of, but it still is a very unique experience as well. Pulse Did you finish it? I think you finished the current build.Palsh 6:46 Now I wish I'm doing the same thing as werewolf and kind of just I love it so much. And I actually I've gotten like the hunger to play it over and over again, but I'm holding back as much as I can because I want to but I just want to wait about it. Just mainly to support tober and I'll be frank with that it was like I don't like early access, but this game was so satisfying that I just wanted to keep going with it. But I'm forcing myself not to because I want to I want to do when it's complete. So I'm just I'm basically itching to beat the whole game I want to go and I don't want to have to be like, I need more.Unknown Speaker 7:22 abstinence is fun.Jake 7:25 I will say as well the the commercial tober made for for that game is is fantastic.GP 7:31 Yeah, the guy gets it like he's, he understands kind of that that old school feeling of what is rad like you know the kind of heart of that that you know, talking about the commercial, but he gets a really good idea of what makes something fun or humorous or just truly like down to the balls awesome. If that makes sense.Palsh 7:51 anything anybody who's listening to this, if you want to check out the website, or for buying it on Steam, we will link it here on our on our own website. If Listen, presby the canceled comJake 8:02 hashtag sponsored, sponsored.Jake 8:07 All right, good. Um,Wulff 8:09 quick question, are these honorable mentions outside of our two games?Jake 8:13 No, I figured it'd be okay. week you're near number one and number two,Jake 8:18 how many games you guys have? We have a lot of contingencies. I just, oh,Jake 8:23 okay, Wolf, do you want to go next then?Wulff 8:26 Okay, so, I guess my honorable mention, would really be Death Stranding, like The Walking concept because, yes, you know what a lot of people pick on this game. And like part of me really was like, kind of letting go of the idea of picking a 2019 game because I played like five of them. And the two big ones were this one man of Medan and I'm probably only 15 hours into Death Stranding at this point. But what I have played of that stranding it. It starts slow and That's no way to sell a game day. Anybody I will admit, for me a game has to have me within two hours for me to keep playing it and Death Stranding did that. Not necessarily with the gameplay, but the story, I found the gameplay. Interesting, but the story really pulled me in right away. So as I started playing further and further, like I wanted to see what this world was and as I got further into the game, digging into the story, the gameplay picked up to and honestly today, I guess a form of fast travel has opened up to me now and I'm like building freeways and shit. It's it's really bizarre. But I dig on it like it's it's, it's definitely a walking simulator or a driving simulator. Whatever your your your it's traveling. That's what this game is is traveling, picking your basically traveling, picking up garbage along the way and taking it to whoever dropped it. YouPalsh 9:56 basically sounded like you're making, you're talking about a futuristic world. Of The Rings and I'm kind of interestedWulff 10:02 it I guess that's a good way to put it itPalsh 10:05 just make them part of the walking simulator butJake 10:08 explaining with the the the when you walk away you have to do to keep keep balance. Please explain. Oh,Wulff 10:12 yes, yes. Okay, so it's possible for your character, especially the more weight he's carrying to slip trip and fall. And so if he starts leaning, if his The, the the weight on his back or that what he's carrying starts leaning too far right, you have to hold the L to to get him to lean to the left and shift the weight back and vice versa. And if he does end up slipping, you've got about a second and a half to push the buttons. l&r both at the same time to keep him from wiping out because if he wipes out his cargo falls off, it takesPalsh 10:48 damage, whatever, it's so bad.Wulff 10:50 It's silly. I do agree. It's kind of silly, but it's it's something I don't think it's there for the purposes of like, look at this cool Gameplay loop. I think it's there to keep you engaged with the walking. Because if you were literally just running along from point to point, it would get boring. This is something that keeps you actively doing something in the game. But it's not high action high octane. It's like it's just keeping you it's keeping your attention without assaulting your senses. And I think that's kind of what the purpose was.Jake 11:24 Like the Gameplay wise. I can't I can't stand it. But the story of the characters from the baby strapped in a jar in your on your chest to the guy you're talking to with a straight face. He's wearing a metal skull on his face, del Toro's in it Conan O'Brien's fucking in it. I mean, you have a canteen that collects rainwater and turns it not into drinkable water, but into Monster Energy into MonsterWulff 11:52 Energy. I do think that's ridiculous. The your canteen converts rain or river water into my Monster Energy Drink,Jake 12:01 what the hell you have to urinate and when you urinate there's a mushroom appears. And if other people see their mushroom in their instance, they can pee on it and it gets bigger.Wulff 12:10 Yeah, and it spawns crypto by votes that lets you regain.Jake 12:15 Like, this is the most amazing, fantastic game of the year that I will never ever want to play. I love I love watching it. It is so batshit and Shane, you can't help but love this game.Wulff 12:26 I can completely understand people not wanting to jump into this game, I get it. But for me, I like weird shit. I'm a weird dude. I'm target audience. I think thatGP 12:38 there is some science to support if I remember the documentary correctly, the energy drink thing because you can use that as a tool to water your plants because from what I understand it has electrolytes in the energy drink. And that's what plants crave.Wulff 12:58 Damn it.Jake 12:58 So this comes out for the PC when this comes for the PC people going to mod it and I'm telling you the first person that replaces Monster Energy Drink with Canada's own bebas I will I will give them at least five bucksGP 13:13 I think I need to email beaver buzz where they're going to try to get sponsored or we owe them money one of the twoJake 13:19 they haven't tweeted tweeted like three years it's okay we're good.GP 13:22 Okay, so maybe should we change it to jolt?Palsh 13:27 No, it doesn't have that that lower behind it anymore.Wulff 13:31 But yeah, this this game, it's it's definitely the more you do, the faster the gameplay loop gets. And I know that sounds kind of weird, but honestly, I played for a couple hours off stream today just because I wanted to like get some of the mundane stuff done. But not major story because I'm trying to save that for an audience you knowPalsh 13:51 what can be mundane in this game.GP 13:55 If you can't even walkJake 13:56 right the the poop grenades explain the poop grenades. Please,Wulff 14:00 oh my gosh, yes, there's so many weird things in this game. So you're the main character. The main character has some qualities to his blood and just his genetics in general. That make it to where his waist is even a viable weapon against what they call BTS or beach things that the ghosties of the game Yeah, mine too. You can you can basically hurl little grenades made out of either your pee, your poop or even your shower water. And I'm guessing they have varying degrees of effectiveness a go. I imagine none of them are as good as your blood grenades.Jake 14:44 There are plus three to damage.Wulff 14:47 And I realized that everything I'm saying about this game was probably just making people scratch their head like what the hell is this about?Palsh 14:55 Now? I know he's still trying to figure that out. That's whyWulff 14:58 I really am but i'm i'm just So into the story I'm so into the upgrade system like I've I've managed to actually upgrade my weapons today after stream get access to better upgrades for like carrying capacity and things like that by just running errands for people but it'll definitely speed up the pace of gameplay for later soPalsh 15:21 if the last of us you get the spare parts at this word you get fiberGP 15:27 for dinner grenades plus toWulff 15:32 sit down even like all all I've seen him eat those little bugs, the crypto buyouts that just look like what are they called? Water bears? Oh, tardigrades, tardigrades, yeah, they just look like giant float and I say giant because tardigrades are so damn small. They're like the size of a caterpillar. But they're just tardigrade looking flying grubs that you can pull out of water apparently land coral Beat. So, Jamie here, this game is weird. I'm really good at it. And I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes. SoGP 16:09 well, I will say this, my my son, I have a four year old son who who's somewhat coordinated but not at high speeds. So now whenever he starts tripping over himself, I'm just going to start yelling, L to L toGP 16:25 have a second. I'm intrigued. I've watched you play some of this. And I remember scratching my head because of the words your bodily fluids pose no harm to him. And I remember thinking What is this? And now I know a little bit more. But I don't know anymore but I have more informationWulff 16:42 and I'm very intrigued. This This game is very much like a David Lynch. experience on crack. It's just out there.Jake 16:52 Yeah, Paul's any thoughts on destroying?Palsh 16:54 I'm kind of with werewolf there. It's so out there that I just Want to pay attention more? Because it's like, I shake my head at everything that I've seen happen in this game, but at the same time, I don't want to look away I want to see what he's going to do next. It's like the Howard Stern effect kind of thing. You know, when he first came along, and everybody's like, you know the shock Jackie that's what is like, it's like a shock. shock, Jackie kind of thing, but for a video game. Is he really doing this because he wants to or is it just to keep people guessing? Because I'm constantly just questioningWulff 17:31 No, I think this is legit Hideo Kojima without being saddled by lore from Metal Gear. Yeah, right. He got to create a brand new existence a brand new universe and run with it.Palsh 17:45 Yeah. And I mean Metal Gear as great as they are like they have so many like historical tie ins and stuff like that, especially with you know, history and, you know, war and stuff like that. But yeah, even then they've had some so many WTF And since those games and it's making those look realistic, like hyper realistic, I just Yeah, I just, I'll never play it but I am enjoying watching it. And I'll never play it just because I don't have a ps4. SoGP 18:14 is anybody checking in on Cosima to make sure that he's okay, I'm feeling like maybe there might be some red flags in the game about his. I just hope he's okay. Today Oh, if you're listening, we care. And thank you for yourWulff 18:28 outright. I think he did outright respond to the negative reviews he was getting from the western press and said that Westerners don't get it or Americans don't get it or something like that. That's like, that's a little bit pretentious to say. It's like it's it's clearly not a game for everybody. Yeah, and that's fine. Not every game has to There you go. I love that. Thank you for saying that. But, but this is a game for me. I see itJake 18:53 and it's it's definitely good choice. Like there's comments the commentary in that game with the likes system and the roving mules and Former package delivery guys like there's things in that game that are weird but I can see where he's coming from as a commentary on on the way the world is today but to the extremeWulff 19:09 and where it's headed Yeah, all that kind of stuff so I mean it if you if you start like really thinking about the world that's built around what's like the weird circumstances in the world you start to kind of get an idea of where he's coming from on the social commentary side of things right but it's still got that weird like Silent Hill story going on out of left field that's constantly like what is happening?Palsh 19:33 Yeah, it's it's definitely one of a kind will put it that way.Wulff 19:38 Yes, I was. I was gonna say the last thing and it's something I said in GP stream earlier is that a lot of games active skills are reflexes, and memory. This game is active skills are patience and planning, and poolJake 19:56 which is planning and patient. I'm gonnaGP 19:59 eat this It's not for now, but for later.Jake 20:04 I love it. Okay, Polish. How about you? What's your honorable mention for Game of the Year?Palsh 20:09 It was tricky because I don't like playing favorites. Someone ever asked me what my favorite game is, I can give you a different answer depending on my mode or depending on what category so picking one was really tricky. So I'm going to go with one I'm still playing now and I've only been playing for last week, but that's how addicted I am for a runner up. That's what we're doing right runners up. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I'm going with Resident Evil to remake. I can easily say it's Game of the Year for me, but I've got I've got a reason behind that. I'll explain later. But this one is, it's hitting the nostalgia buttons on enough at the perfect intervals. Like it's just it's got me like, Resident Evil two is kind of where I've started falling in love with horror games and movies. I used to be terrified. Sleep with my parents. Every night because I was scared that zombies are going to kill us if I don't you know if I don't sleep with somebody and you know until I was like, you know 32 years old it's crazy can't sleep but uh so like resin evil two is always been my favorite. It's it's kind of the chrysalis that the catalyst sorry for me falling in love with an entire genre of games and it was part of my childhood so I knew this game better than most other games I've ever played. So I only get to play this recently like I only got about a week ago, I went in completely blind, all my friends were streaming it and as much as I wanted to support them, I couldn't watch I couldn't even leave a workout because I just wanted to watch it. I just I'm in love with it. It's the perfect amount of nods to the original and the perfect amount of updating. to not have it so dated. So they try to cover a lot of things that you know, the original You can't be because, you know this and that, like, why is the police station so convoluted in the stuff in this one, like they mentioned, it's, you know, built out of an old Art Museum of stuff. So they kind of take the, the original one and yeah, they, they kind of just try to put it in reality a little bit more and not just say, you know, hey, we're going to do this and this is how it is just because like, you know, we're going to make this fun. But it's not really realistic, you know, but the puzzles and stuff like that, they kind of fit in more and the gameplay is just great. It's satisfying. The graphics are beautiful. Every now and then, like, you're thrown for a loop because you you expected it to be like carbon copy with better graphics and new new engine. But like they change things up, but at the same time, they kept it so much the same that it feels like you're playing that game and it just blows my mind. I can't get enough of it. I can talk about it for hours and like I just want to talk about it with others. fans that are huge fans of it, because there's so many little nods, and I'm on my second play through it. And I'm catching on to stuff that I never caught the first time, I was nervous going through it, I didn't want to get scared, I didn't want to run out of ammo, I didn't want to die, you know. And after that, you start getting confidence and next thing you know, you get cocky. And the more thing you know, your first play through was like seven or eight hours the next time for and the next time after this two and a half like you get comfortable with it. And it's not that it gets boring. It's just you understand the system adapted itself the same way as me playing the original. So I think it's just so many levels of nostalgia for me that I can't get enough of it.Jake 23:40 Did they change the 10 controls in this one? Do they get rid of that orWulff 23:43 doesn't it control more like Resident Evil for now?Palsh 23:46 It's more like four Yeah, it's kind of somewhere in between seven and four for controls because you're doing third person over the shoulder but I mean, third person over the shoulder is like a much better tank control anyways, because Is this the same control scheme, but your view is different? Right? So the tank controls are necessary in the original ones because otherwise, every time the camera angle changed, you know, you'd go veer off course. So it's kind of integral to it. And that became part of the series. People complain about it and complain about it. And then when they took it out in resin evil six, all of a sudden, people were like, sucks, you know, and that's part of I think, the tank controls were part of the the immersion for me, you don't you can't jump around like you're Mario and, you know, pop off of different things and stuff. So the control kind of limits you and it kind of adds to the suspense because you can't have these amazing reflexes, you know, so you have to play any movements more.Jake 24:42 Yeah, Resident Evil is as much about the controls in a style than anything else. I think that's why when they did move three recently coming out, people were kind of harping on it complaining about it because it's kind of dated in gameplay. But it's a Shenmue game, right or Shenmue. However you want to say it, and it feels like the game from what 13 years ago so they knew the style they're going for and the people who liked that series like it for that particular style I think resin evil the same wayPalsh 25:07 yeah and when they when they listened to enough people and changed it in resin evil six that's you know that's the worst game the franchise and and like it was like Final Fantasy 13 for me I never gave it a second try and I want to sayWulff 25:21 to is a game I've yet to really do much with I have I haven't even done much looking into it because that's another one I've wanted to keep pretty much blind for myself just because too was my favorite of the Resident Evil series.Palsh 25:34 Yeah, and that that's exactly why I stayed away from it. So if you were a fan of the original that I think you will thoroughly enjoy this oneJake 25:42 cool yeah for me it was the third one Nemesis is when I played when I was younger and never really got chance to play to my uncle was huge into it though I it's one where I want to go back and play it now or at least play the remaining because everybody's been raving about it. Like this game is incredibly popular for cash. Come they've been killing it this past year. So I'm looking for to planet.Palsh 26:04 I also felt a little guilty for my game of the year being from this actual year soGP 26:10 backwards saying that is when we get to that point where we're like, I want to do gimme you the year but I don't know about doing it for this year. Yeah. Yeah, what a great year. That year was 1989 now and I'm with you guys Resident Evil two for me was my introduction to the series but it was it still has maintained as my favorite. I've seen some of the remake and it looks dope as hell, but kind of like polish. I eventually want to get to it but I haven't really sat down watched it yet. You know, cuz I want to play through it. But yeah, if it's as great as everybody says it is, which I believe it will be. I'm excited for it. I just don't know if I will get exiled for playing a 2019 game on a retro themed channel.Jake 26:58 So I rebranded the Modern therapy. Yeah,GP 27:01 I yeah,Wulff 27:02 just make a second channel the modern pair.GP 27:05 Maybe? MaybeWulff 27:09 the I just want to play it anyway there. Yeah,Palsh 27:12 I'll just give you my stream key focus.GP 27:17 Hi, everybody, this is possible. No nine. I have a cold. That's all I'm gonna say. I love Canada.Wulff 27:26 Just give him just give him your little talking face and you're good to go.Unknown Speaker 27:31 Alright, I guess let's meet now. So my honorable mention for me, Jake. Jake, what's your about mentioned it?Jake 27:41 Well, I thank you for asking. I wasn't sure if he was going to say so for me, it's tough because I'm terrible with starting games and never finishing them. Like I'm really bad at it. And I always complain about companies that release games that are I won't say too long. Maybe it's more accurate to say that they don't respect the players time, right? I mean, I'm older. I I kids I work, I don't have a lot of time to play games. If I play one, it's got to be really good for you to finish it. And I don't want to spend 80 hours anymore on these things. I love JRPGs but they're too much of a time sink for me. So it's been very tough this past year to find a game that I can finish in and enjoy in a short timeframe. The longest game I played this year was probably fallen empires, not fallen empires, Fire Emblem. I've had a few. I'll say it again. But there is one game that was just the other week came out and it's Star Wars Jedi fallen order. And I was so done on Star Wars after less Jedi, and solo especially like I had zero interest the new movies coming out in a couple of weeks. My wife wanted to go see it. And I'm like, Do we have to? Can I just can we just like you know, watch on Netflix a year from now. And I was done. Between Mandalorian and Jedi fallen order the game. It's put me in such a mood. Like we went and got the fanciest frickin tickets. I spent $30 on movie tickets. I never do that. I am down for Star Wars now Disney is hooked me again the son of a bitches. So following order is it is honorable mention because there's nothing groundbreaking about it. They're taking the best elements or, or elements from various different games like the climbing reminds me Breath of the Wild a little bit or Uncharted. There's a checkpoint system that is very dark souls inspired. Combat reminds me when you swing the lightsaber around like you're Gerald from Witcher three, they took a lot of elements from various different games and smash it all together. You say took out with a really great soundtrack and a really good it's a goodPalsh 29:37 story adorable.Jake 29:38 We also said sons of bitches. Some of the bitches Look, I get a little bit emotional when I've had a few different drink and I'm talking about my passion. Okay. Yeah, baby Yoda. It's amazing. What's wrong.GP 29:50 I haven't watched it. I haven't watched it. I haven't watched it. All.Jake 29:54 Spoilers. Okay. Wow. All right. Stop the pop.Wulff 30:00 I'm not on the Star Wars hype train by any means, but I'm probably more into Star Wars now than I ever was growing up. So take that take that as you will. Getting back on track fallen order looks pretty cool. It does look good.GP 30:13 And that's got that accurate right and the guys punchable punchable faceWulff 30:18 Yeah, the not Joker Joker from Gotham. Yeah,Jake 30:22 yeah or the kids are but his face wants me want to hit him and he'sGP 30:25 an amazing actor and I feel bad I can't think of his name because he I think it's Cameron Monaghan that sounds right.Wulff 30:32 That sounds sounds about it.Jake 30:35 challa him Monahan Let meGP 30:36 check my Instagram because IWulff 30:38 actually following Oh, we're sorry if you ever actually hear this episodes here. I really likedJake 30:48 your fantastic KimGP 30:50 MonahanJake 30:51 Yeah, and what they did was really neat in this game with the graphics, the graphics are quite a bit, very high quality and they even run in my opinion Computer upstairs I'm really impressed. But what I like about the character models themselves, is they digitized very accurately the faces of the voice actors. So there's a comedian Deborah Wilson and an actress. She used to be on that TV. Very funny person. She's one of the characters in this play a very serious role and it's she nails it and it looks just like her. They did an amazing job. Wow. So like the characters in this game are very relatable. They're very well done. The overall story. It's Star Wars, right? Like it's, it's cheesy, little bit hokey, but it's Star Wars. And there's a lot of parallels to like Rogue One as the standalone movie. Because of the standalone. They had to solve their stories in that that one movie and it felt really tight. This game is the same thing. It's the Star Wars universe, but it's its own contained story is relevant to the whole lore I guess if you want to say that but it stands on its own so well. And I think it's just really great and then like mechanics, you can play like a dark souls. You can check the difficulty up if you like the soul style game. You can do that. Me personally, I don't have the patience for it. I tried. I died to this one frog three times and I threw the controller. And I said too easy. And then I played the story and the story was fantastic. YouWulff 32:10 know what I can appreciate the single serving stories like that, though not every single experience out there needs to be like a 12 part saga. Sometimes you run a one and done kind of story, experience it have the good times, give it an ending. Don't leave it. Don't leave the audience hanging with every single entry.GP 32:29 Every word you just said we're will sounds like a one night stand. Get out there and have your fun, give it an ending. Don't leave people hanging and be done with it. Don't take it to breakfast. Was that howPalsh 32:40 that works? I've been doing a rock.GP 32:42 That's because you're polite calls.Jake 32:44 Right? You don't need her dad pregnant and going to the dark and just notGP 32:48 get any but the actress that you were saying was from med TV. Your answer to this is going to depend it's going to determine whether or not I play this game. Is it the actress who played Stewart's mom? No It's Deborah Wilson.Jake 33:02 I'm struggling to go character she played on that TV.Wulff 33:06 Oh, she did the with Sullivan. I can't remember her first name the blonde woman. They did theGP 33:12 know Nicole Sullivan. I remember because she was on.Wulff 33:14 Yes. Okay. So Deborah Wilson, I believe, did a few skit sketches with Nicole Sullivan. As hairdressers.GP 33:25 Oh, no, I sorry. I just Yeah, she's wonderful. Okay, I'll probably go Yeah, yeah, she was just gonna say if it's Stewart's Mom, I'm not gonna be able to play the game.Jake 33:35 No, it's not okay. Yeah, but it's a really solid title. Like I said gameplay not revolutionary. No, but they took the best elements of various series and mash it together. It's great. It's also got one of the greatest intros, I think of a game in recent memory. It opens up with Mongolian folk throat singing, and I know that sounds fun. Just trust me. It's a great game for sure. All right. Moving along, I guess let's get to our now number ones our official game of the year. Games circle back around a GP. Thank you. I forgot who we started with.GP 34:10 This is um,Wulff 34:12 I'm helping hands.GP 34:15 This is my game of the year. Okay, there's my official one. Then there's one I have to make mention of not the Honorable Mention but something I want to address, because it's important, but my game of the year is River City Ransom underground. And you guys know exactly why I'm going to say that because before the podcast existed before we were pressed me to cancel, we were four buddies playing that game together River City Ransom underground. And when we beat the game, not only was it fun, not only was it you know, a great call back to the river city, ransom the planet with you guys and all the updates and all the things that they did were so well executed, but by the time it was done, I was let down that it was done. I wanted there to be more and more and more And more. So much fun. And I remember the conversation after we beat it. The four of us was like, well, do we play it again? Or do we play something else? And then of course, the podcast idea came up. And of course, it was a great idea and it's beenWulff 35:14 a lot of fun. But I the podcast idea came up like the second or third time we played. Oh, yeah, we just kind of were like, yeah, okay, but I mean, like pulling,GP 35:24 pulling the trigger on it and say, No, let's do this. Because even though we can't say any of the stuff, we played, well, playing the game, we had enough chemistry or whatever to do this. So that was my favorite new gaming experience of the year. And a big part of it is because of you guys, but I mean, the game itself was tremendous, and it was so light hearted and fun, but absurd, like the absurd level of that game. Not quite as bizarre as the Cocina entry from earlier. But really, like just such a great continuation of what it was back then. And as And a bunch of new flair. And you can tell it was made by people who loved and cared about the original and I like that it came through and it was to me like I said, the best gaming experience I've had for a newer game. Nobody can get y'all are crying. And then the other thing I have to say real quick, and I'm just very briefly we don't have to have a discussion about it. I want to apologize to anybody who's ever encouraged me to play Super ghouls and ghosts, the retro therapy we've been doing a year of blind playthroughs and so my like fringe Game of the Year is super ghouls and ghosts played it in May for the first hour April as a blind run. never wanted to play it didn't look interesting. fucking love that game. I was way wrong. Game of the Year in my heart super goals and ghosts but for New Game of the Year, River City Ransom undergroundJake 36:49 for River City there's one just came at River City girls came out by bus different with studio and it's not the same and I was when I heard that title. Oh, another River City game. I was so hype for it and it's not a bad game there You seem okay on it but it doesn't play anything like the four player Co Op like just shit show River City underground is and I was like sad like actually sad that I couldn't play with you guys and it wasn't the same spark right so I think that's very telling what the original was really great fun and just absurd characters like isn't a principal a Bobo isn't it?Wulff 37:25 Yeah a Bobo is principal a Bobo teach bad student lessonGP 37:33 It was great humorPalsh 37:35 was like cool like Kool Aid man just like a double dragon.GP 37:39 It was It was great. It was a wonderful experience. I hope that you guys I sounds like 68 it but I hope you guys all enjoyed it as much.Wulff 37:46 Oh, yeah, that game it. It hits so many notes it. It had random nods to just so many things like so many various beloved franchises of yesteryear andGP 37:59 some deep Slight Oh, your headset? Yes, great.Wulff 38:02 There was so many things, there was so many references that like one of us would catch that the others didn't. And it would be like, Oh, yeah, and I even I played through this game probably two full times. So once with you guys once with another friend of mine and probably another to halfway through, like once we just pause before we did the all four of us thing and then once just by myself that's how much I like this game is just satisfying because theyPalsh 38:33 they fixed. They like they took what was great about it and then just improved on it because it was just a labor of love kind of deal. And the music music is great. Just everything else. tons, tons of characters, tonsGP 38:45 of characters. Everybody had their own unique attacks,Wulff 38:48 doesn't playable characters after you unlock everybody.GP 38:51 Wow. Yeah.Jake 38:53 One guy does a hadoo Glenn.GP 38:55 Yeah. And then there's these, you know, well, there's you know, the Chad's You're like all just completely jacked and doing push ups with their chins to hit Yeah. And it's just, it's the right level of crazy and the the operating not the operating system but the, the way in which you have to accomplish stuff, or level up is is fantastic. You can go to saunas, you can go and eat beef jerky, I can't really describe it very well and do it justice, but you guys know, and if you've played it, then you get it. But if you haven't played it, get with it, act like you want it, download it, play it, find some friends, and make some connections because it'sWulff 39:34 fun, like added to your wish list or something and keep an eye out for a deal on this game if you're hesitant, but I mean, it hits a deep sale a number of times a year. So this is highly recommended one to get your hands on.Jake 39:47 And like the original river city ransom. I tried playing that after we play the new one, right? I don't like the original at all. But Underground's awesome I fantastic. I want to play it again like the original, just something but it didn't click, like this new one does. It's weird.Palsh 40:05 It's kind of like Borderlands two. I can't go back to Borderlands the same because yeah, they just made the second one so much better. Yeah, and I hate it because I love that game.Jake 40:17 All right. Well, how about you? What's your game of the year of 2019?Wulff 40:20 Um, you know what the game that I first like that. Then another new game to me this year. And I mean, I'm keeping it relatively recent right now. Not on purpose. It just happened to be like, I've played a lot of older games, and I was playing a lot of games that were completely new to me this year catching up on stuff on my ps4. So, Dad of war. Yeah, God of War for the ps4, that that's the one that got me It did. But I mean, it's this story about credos and his son and the relationship they don't have. That becomes one by the end of the game. And just the overall game itself, the game players a lot of fun, the conference That was interesting and kept refreshing itself throughout the game because you got access to new new stuff, but it didn't feel like you were burdened by the combat or anything. You know. I don't know that the story between the father and son it got me right in the fields. And I mean, maybe that's because I have a five year old son of my own. I don't know, but I was like, man, and there were points where I was, I was, boy, there were points where I was mad at credos for being such as to his son, a trace and then there were points where I was mad at trace for being such a dick the dad so you know. It's almost like real life. I actually cared about all the characters in this game like there were there was the blacksmith's. They were interesting and fun. One of them is just this crass, dirty old uncle type of bastard and the other one is a total germaphobe neat freak can a guy they're both very interesting stories like the lore behind hind the world. It's, I mean, they make pretty deep cuts into the Norse mythology. And it's all super cool. It's pretty spot on as far as what they pulled and built off of a I This was my first god of war. I haven't played any of them prior to this.Palsh 42:17 It might be a step down from here on in just fair warning.Wulff 42:20 What do you mean? You started that? Uh, whoa, yes, yes. Yeah. But I had, I had no connection with the characters prior to this. So it's not like, you know, I knew a lot of people who played the old god of war games and they were like, oh, man, credos is so cool. And then I never got into it wasn't it wasn't the type of game I was looking for at the time. And this year, it it hit all the right notes for me, and I was so pleased to play through it.Jake 42:46 The voice actor of creatives crisper judge, he's by to con Stargate and she is so good and that the voice acting overall and the game is really good, but you're right when he says boy, oh my god, it just hits all those notes. Indeed. And it's just like such a spectacle of a game. With the fights and whatnot, it just, uh, it is it's, it almost got me to buy a ps4. I made a commitment to the PC gaming this generation I told myself, I would not get another Xbox or ps4. And it's been so hard because Sony has been knocking them out those exclusives that are really fantastic. And God of War almost had me. I'm dying to play it.Wulff 43:25 Yeah, I think I'm the only one here who's played that one. So we don't have to dwell on it too long. Basically, if you haven't played it, and you can do so please.Jake 43:34 So Paul, shovel you What's your game of the year for 2019?Palsh 43:38 My game of the year I was thinking hard and long about this and that in that order? No, not really. I couldn't decide for a while but I wanted to give this something. I couldn't decide between Resident Evil two which I've only been playing for last week and something else but I'm going with hollow night and the reason I gave this The edge over Resident Evil two was not because I enjoyed it better, because they're both I can't I can't compare him to two different games. They're both just so good. But uh, I like the fact that Hollywood I first half it's an indie game that hit it big, and for damn good reason because it's just an amazing game. It hits so many like, buttons again, I just like you know, if you liked Castlevania Symphony of the Night, which I loved, of course, and the economy is, this one is like a completely different storyline is the best Metroidvania I've played. That's not, you know, a Castlevania basically. And I just really thought that after I reading up on it, and discussing with people what they did when they developed this game and how they've worked with it. I didn't know this was a Kickstarter game until I was halfway through. And I'm really wary of Kickstarter games for the most part, but I mean, that's all because I tried to buy Something on Kickstarter wants and I got burned. So I just said Oh, it's all garbage. Garbage is bliss hot garbage. Yeah. But no, I really liked the fact that they destroyed their Kickstarter cool. And as a result, they added extra content they have free DLC, which is the only way to do DLC. Personally, I can't stand the concept of DLC. For me, it's just like, oh, why are you selling an incomplete game that's, you know, stretching it out and trying to make money in the meantime and try to keep the buzz going. Like I'm just very negative when it comes to DLC. And I like how they did it because first off, it was free second half. It was great. It wasn't just like a cheap extension of the game. There's just so many great ways that they did it and apparently that they're working on a spin off or sequel I don't know what to call it. But the people that that contributed to the original Kickstarter campaign for hollow night apparently get the new game for free.Jake 45:57 Oh wow.Palsh 45:58 That's so little Things like yeah, and so like these indie devs are I think they're doing everything right and that's I think Capcom made resin evil to remake and it is amazing and they know what they're doing. They've made many mistakes along the way but they're also one of the biggest names in the world. These guys are you know, I've never heard of them before. This is the game that they are famous war and that's pretty much the only game they got and they're killing it. And I just really wanted to serve my support to them because I think it's amazing. So I'm looking forward to anything else that they put it in the future and just want to do spread that spread that enthusiasm to anybody who hasn't played it. To definitely check it out because retro inspired first off and it is like I said one of a kind for a metro Metroidvania which is not an easy thing to do your your cartoon bugs and the story is really deep, considering how cartoony and how innocent it is. It can be an At the same time really Gothic and really morose but still makes you feel good makes you happy to play it.Jake 47:08 It's definitely going to style man I like the whole role of the bugs and the grubs and the color palette is very very specificWulff 47:15 it to me it screams of like Tim Burton with bugs. Yes,Palsh 47:21 yes, I like that that's that's that's a great analogy there.Jake 47:25 It's one where I don't think I gave it a fair shake when it first came out and I have to go back and play it because I did try it but I found it a little bit of a difficult side or at least initially and I think I fell off it but I have to go back and tryWulff 47:37 I can see how that happened. What platform Are you playing on? It was PC Okay, so you've got a nice big chunky controller is gonna say if you're playing on switch, those two icons are not going to do you any favors. It was like this you need to have a big controller where it's easy to get from button a button and maneuver the joypad your hands is not going to to easily cramp up this was the game that I probably first streamed. When I started really getting into streaming. I had a lot of fun with this game. But for me my biggest issue with the game is just how samey the color palettes are sometimes I legit could not see enemies on certain screen it can get tricky like that. And that's probably more in me issue than an issue with the game itself. So I don't it's not something I hold against the game that was just my issue with the game but the boss fights and a lot of the level design and everything the world building it was all so much cool. So much fun, so cool at the boss fights and it specifically I just, they were so much fun to learn and figure out and master save for like maybe one of them that just pissed me off to no end until I beat it after it doesn't attempt.Palsh 48:54 The boss fights. Some of them were brutal and it came harking back to the days of NAS hard, where you stick through it, and you get Spidey and you want to beat it. And when you finally do, it's just such a satisfaction that you're just proud of yourself and you keep going. And I think the more bosses that you fight, and the more that you struggle with it, I think the makes it just, the more you want to play it.Wulff 49:17 I also liked that this game sort of encouraged the player to be a little bit more mindful of where they traveled. It ate up one of your active charms slots, or maybe two or three of your active charm slots to First off, be able to see the map when you're running around. Or maybe see which room you're in or see your specific location, things like that. Yeah, otherwise, you didn't get that you just got to see the map. And I that might have been a charm tonight. I think about it. But I'm not surePalsh 49:48 you have you can look at the map anytime you want to but to see where you were in relation to everything, you had to use one of the terms so yeah, yeah. So that was always on for me.Wulff 49:58 Me too. I was so Last the few times I elected to go without that thing I was I don't know what room I'm in. I have no idea. So I just started keeping it, it became a staple.Palsh 50:07 You very much have to have that as far as I'm concerned it The world is God I want to say it is three times bigger than I expected. I'm not excited and like, you know, I was about a quarter of the way through the game and I thought I was half done. I thought I was like three quarters the way down. And my friend saw my map and he said, Oh, yeah, you're doing good. You You were about 30% and I'm like what? Wow. Yeah. And so it's it's it's a big game and it's challenging. It'll take you a while. But it is worth every penny. I think it's just great.Wulff 50:46 And then there's the the challenge areas where like, the platforming oh my gosh, you I don't know if you did many of those are any of them but I did. I remember doing the one where everything is white and It's like a lot of clouds and stuff. And each you gotta jump on buzz saws and everything. It's a lot of platforming, a lot of perfectly timed attacks to things that'll hurt you to bounce up off of them and keep platforming. I had a lot of fun with it. It was very difficult but also it I felt very accomplished after completing it.Palsh 51:19 Yeah, the controls for that. They're so tight in the best way. So if you die, you're like, that was my phone. Yeah, that was my fault. You never going to throw that throw the controller and you know, like the Castlevania mode. Like when you're playing the original Castlevania games and you get thrown off because something hits you made jump and stuff. Now it's nothing like that. It's just it's challenging and a whole different level.Jake 51:42 Like Dark Souls combat was always difficult. But I always felt if I died, I felt a lot of time I died because of the slowdown of the animations. It wasn't it was fluid, but there wasn't as much control over your movements. Yeah. Whereas with hollow night, I mean, it's dead of it. There's obvious Dark Souls inspiration here. The combat is fast and like you said, controls very tight. And you are precise with your movements right you have full control your character and if you're right if you die, and I never did I say it's because the game has bad controls or gameplay. It's just it's just too hard for me. That was my fault. Yeah, exactly.Palsh 52:19 So it's definitely it's just one of those games where I don't really have a complaint about it except for the fact that it's just, there's so much that I want to do. Yeah, it's there's so much to it and getting like 100% on everything it is. It is a big pill to swallow if you want to do that. SoJake 52:37 Alright, awesome. I guess that leaves us Jake.Wulff 52:40 Bring it home. Jake. Jake, what do youJake 52:42 know? Yeah, sorry. I just got back to GP laughing I my games my game when I mentioned what it was. So for me, my game of the year. It's not new to me. But I played it a whole lot this year. And I gotta start by saying, I don't like beat him ups. Everybody raves Mostly to rage, and final fight and all those games. I don't like them, I never really got into them. The only one that I really cared for and it came from when I was a kid, my friend had a Master System. And I had a lot of fun memories going to his place to play it. And the one game we played quite a bit was Double Dragon. My game of the year is double dragon for the Master System.Palsh 53:21 See, I thought you were just building up how you're going to start talking about something more recent. So for the fact that I knew what you're going to say,Wulff 53:30 Now, like, I've not played this game. I never really played much Double Dragon in general. What I did play was when I was younger, and I sucked at it, and it was on the ns like that's the one I played. Yeah, and I even cheesed my way through that game. I want to say last year, late last year with safe states because I finally got fed up with trying to do a full single setting of that game. I just couldn't do it. I'm hoping the Master System version is better. Otherwise, I'm calling shenanigans on your turn.Jake 54:02 From once people are disagreeing with me, that never happens. So okay, you're right so the I've been trying to get into the Double Dragon because I know that's the most common one people have been playing. The problem I have with that part of the game is and we mentioned before in the podcast, Nintendo when they brought certain franchises over to the me as they kind of insisted that be something more unique or additions made to the game to separate it from the other versions. Because Double Dragon as an IP, or the first one is important to literally everything. If you want to a hot garbage time. It's the Skyrim Double Dragon for mid 80s. Yeah, we'll play the Atari 2600 version. It exists. It uses one button and a joystick. And if you play Double Dragon the NES you know that you've you really should have three buttons for that game. Right in order to jump you need to push a and b at the same time. It's terrible. The Atari only has one button.Palsh 54:57 You have an automatic jump kick soon as you do Anything with it jumping So,Jake 55:01 right but you have to unlock it in the NDS version. What's the message to them to get off don't not to get too far off track. They are different games. The ns has technical limitations with it. Right? The reason I like the Master System on I know never heard of that before a bit systems being crappy blunt. Like the Master System version was Co Op, you could play with a friend. In fact, it was meant to be played with a friend. Wow. It's on screen Co Op, as well. Yes version. I had a restriction of I want to say two enemies at once on screen. And they were almost I think they had to be the same sprite when they did it. So if you to Bobo'sWulff 55:35 Miss,Wulff 55:37 right?Jake 55:39 Yeah. So the sprites looked a little bit better on the vs vs Master System, but you only had two enemies on the screen at one time. So I mean that and for whatever reason, Nintendo I guess, for that port had shoehorned in some platforming elements, which were terrible, right and it jumping in a game is bad and it's bad in the Master System as well. But nobody In the Master System version is there moving platforms or things you have to navigate the only jump that's really a pain in the butt is the division three you're in the jungle area or forest area and there's a bridge broken into jump across it that's the only real tricky jump jumping is optional. Yeah, but the NAS had so many other jumps that were just terrible. Yes, right. So my system has Co Op First off, I want to say three enemies max on screen if not for and you can have different enemies on screen at once. The first level the end boss is a red a Bobo and there's another guy on the screen or two Why don't you guys the screen and same time I believe, but it's great for that. I played a lot of double dragon in the arcades. When I was a kid. It was Double Dragon and it was a lot of rampage the original rampage nice and this is very true to the arcade. It does not look as nice. The sprites are designed quite different. But the stage layout and the music is almost spot on. Release. Nostalgia tells me it was very similar to the arcade game it's also easier as well more forgiving the enhanced version I say that there's no continuous I think in that one no wrongWulff 57:11 there are notJake 57:12 right and that's ass.Palsh 57:15 Stupid okay.Wulff 57:16 For no reason not agree more.Jake 57:19 Right so Master System you have unlimited continues. For this first three missions is only four missions, you have a limit continues for the first three it's only at the fourth mission that whatever you had, you have to finish the fourth message force force. wow I've had a few. The fourth mission, you have to use your remaining lives and that's all you get. So if you finish mission three with one life you only have one life and no continuous permission for that's a bit annoying, but it let it prepares you the first three missions to kind of make your way through the game is definitely challenging some of the fights, but you have that cushion if you need it. The difficulty ramp up is pretty smooth first mission the enemies you face. And then once you the mission three it ramps up quite a bit and then for it gets a lot harder but it just a great professional way through. But I love it and Co Op because you just battling with a friend right and I get it now for beat him ups for people who play beat him ups. I could never get through the first few stages I just never understood. How can you get there with one life far How do you guys survive that but when you realize when you're playing these games, you got to find the certain moves and when them use them use them. It's very much a placement of your sprites. When you're playing Double Dragon the Master System, you want to bob and weave a bit to avoid getting jump kicked. But the enemies for example, you want to know that the way the AI moves, you can kind of predict the way that moves if you watch carefully enough and you can understand how the game works. Picking that game apart this past year to try and get my time down because I was trying to stream it for retro block party. And originally I played it took me an hour and 10 minutes to beat it just too long. So I want to get it down and I just played it over and over again and I just got such a groove learning the ins and outs of that game and I can do it now and 30 minutes no problem. Wow. It's got to a point where I love playing that game so much and I can just sit down and relax planet I've started speed running it in my off time I hateJake 59:07 I'm not a speed runnerPalsh 59:09 ever Who are you?Jake 59:11 I know who am I it's like I'm not a Jake but it's actually one speed from this game like it's just there's no glitches while there's a couple but it's not like you're you know you're you're zips and weird screen tricks like some speed running games. Double Dragon is just a straight you got to play it and you got to play it well you need to know what moves to use and how to position yourself with the AI. It's just as true game as you can get. I love it. The End sequence is also especially noteworthy if you're playing Co Op. Well, I guess the spoilers, but Nintendo version, you know, a 30 year old game, the end of the Nintendo game, you beat the big ugly with the machine gun. You then face Your brother is his baby. I guess his name is he's the boss and he's super cheap. And the mass system version if you play Co Op after be the guy the machine gun you must beat your brother to death your co op becomes one on one and that's who wins the game.Unknown Speaker 1:00:06 First time that happened,Jake 1:00:07 my friend and I were dying laughing when one of us won the one died. It was just hilarious that you're playing Co Op for for missions. And you get to the end and you gotta beat on your partner it just hilarious is great. Like I don't think any other medium of game has done quite that. I thought that was prettyWulff 1:00:24 that's quite a twist ending for an any or you know for an eight bit game. Not Yeah, Master System. But still. That's, that's pretty cool.Palsh 1:00:32 I want to play it now. Because when you take a platforming, like that sounds more appealing.Wulff 1:00:37 I might go back visit this one.Jake 1:00:41 Yeah. And you have all your moves from the beginning. You can do the elbows and drop kicks, all right from the gecko, and it's fine like Nintendo one is not a bad game. It's fine. I do like it but the Master System one for me just really has that nostalgia belt. It just rings it really clear. It reminds me the arcade game. The music is there. The gameplay is there. It's a fun Co Op game and I've played it so much this year that I've actually started speed running it. And I've never ever said that word with my name in a sense. So for me, it's declared Game of the Year for me just and how much I've enjoyed that retro title.Palsh 1:01:13 I think the only thing I dislike about what I've seen of that game, that version is that the coffee mug fists aren't quite as prominent. That's it.Jake 1:01:24 That's a big, pretty key criterion or a big games.Palsh 1:01:28 It is for me that was the third video game I've ever played. It's high in my record.Jake 1:01:35 Alright, well I think that will do it. That is of course the game of the year for us not just retro, modern two or anything between the new to us all of your titles for presby 2019. I think this is something we're going to get tradition. Maybe not has made drinks and Jake before he does it.Jake 1:01:53 That's fantastic. Well, thank you, everybody who's here. Pulse where Can everybody find you?Palsh 1:01:58 You can find me here. Every now and then I do stream on Twitch at twitch TV slash pulse. 109 says pa l as h 109.Jake 1:02:08 And we're all working folks find you.Wulff 1:02:10 They can find me and Twitch and twitter at werewolf w ar EWULF. f.Jake 1:02:18 and GPS so stunned about my selection for my personal Game of the Year. He is speechless. You can find him at the retro therapy on Twitch TV, or search the retro therapy over on YouTube's. I think he's on Instagram and Twitter too. You'll see him around. He streams a lot. He's a good guy by Nick coughing, but we love and I'm sick Jake, you find me on Twitch mostly, mostly Twitter, just like everybody says just right here, here on presby to cancel. It's been a hell of a year. Here's to another year going forward. Thank you everybody.Wulff 1:02:53 Thank you all for listeningPalsh 1:02:55 to speedsWulff 1:02:57 to an 818Jake 1:03:03 Special thanks for music go to Arthur, the ancient found on Soundcloud or the last station on YouTube. For more episodes, please visit our website presby to cancel.com as well Feel free to like or subscribe at Apple iTunes, Google podcasts or anywhere else you'd like to listen to your favorite shows. As always, thank you.Special thanks to Arthur The Last Ancient on soundcloud for our podcast theme. For updates and more episodes please visit our website www.pressbtocancel.com, or find us on Twitter @pressbtocancel and Instagram @pressbtocancel.

If a lifelong quest for health and wellness is at your core, how do you stay committed to it and stay on your path? A man who knows the answers is Paul Chek of CHEK Institute. Paul has devoted his life to health and fitness: physical, emotional, mental and spiritual health and true fitness. In today's show, Paul explains what those concepts mean and also tells us the path he took from his childhood farm to becoming a licensed holistic health practitioner and working with a professional sports team to creating the Chek Institute. When Paul began his practice, he had traveled all over the world, studied with many great doctors, therapists, teachers, and had had enough clinical time to master and integrate conditioning practices like the Swiss ball. He had also developed his primal pattern movement system. He was ready to go out on his own and when the opportunity arose he took it and hasn't looked back. Paul Chek, on a lifelong quest for health and wellness Since then he's continued to study, learn, practice, and grow. In fact, his growth includes becoming a licensed medicine man and spirit guide, which means he can legally use plant medicines and facilitate healing ceremonies. He feels passionate about these offerings because plant medicine helped him grow more than any other book, video, training or workshop. He tells us more about those experiences, plus the knowledge and coursework involved in becoming a Chek Institute certified practitioner. We also spend a lot of time talking about deprogramming our belief systems and the important impact this can have on helping us heal our bodies and our lives. We'll get into Native American practices, Celtic spiritual philosophies as well as the zero point field and the concept of "one mind". At the heart of it all is Paul's six foundation principles: nutrition, hydration, sleep, breathing, thinking, and movement. But none of those are available to us without a healthy planet, we all need the Earth in order to survive. When we shift our focus in that direction we can see how much we need each other, and we can radically shift our thoughts and our way of living to a more sustainable and peaceful way of life. Take this deep dive with us as we explore those topics and more on this edition of Awesome Health Podcast with Paul Chek! Resources Paul Chek on YouTube Paul Chek on Facebook Paul Chek on Twitter Paul Chek on Instagram Living 4D with Paul Chek podcast CHEK Institute CHEK Institute on Facebook CHEK Institute on Twitter CHEK Institute on LinkedIn Read the Episode Transcript : Wade Lightheart: Good afternoon. Good morning and good evening wherever you are I'm Wade T Lightheart from the Awesome Health Podcast and I am, I can't tell you how excited I am today. I am interviewing my new found friend and really inspirational mentor. Mr. Paul Chek, he's a living legend. A few months ago we had the opportunity to connect at the Canfitpro in Canada where Paul was receiving a Lifetime Achievement award for the incredible contributions that he's made to our industry. And we had a nice connection. He invited me down to the Heaven house in Southern California, which is the heaven house for sure. I think we spent over 12 hours together the whole day we lifted rocks. We looked at how he charges his water, we shared some native American smoke then which was phenomenal. We broke bread together. We had a beautiful interview together and we had a really deep connection together and in a, in a way that I don't know if a lot of people experience in their lives, and I think it may be a throwback to maybe other times or other things when there wasn't so much internet connection and so much, you know, shallow connections, but it was an opportunity to be welcomed into Paul's incredible life. And you just get immersed in it for a day just to walk through his library to see how he'd come to some of the ideas that he'd come up with. And to hear this incredible history of what I believe is a true living legend in the industry and often times misunderstood, not understand, attacked, and then finally proven true. Wade Lightheart: What a great opportunity. Paul, welcome to the show. Paul Chek: It's my pleasure, man. I, I'm always excited to get a chance to connect to you and share some love. So thank you. Wade Lightheart: So, so let's just, we're gonna I got so many questions. One of the things that we're both, we're kind of free flowers. I'd like to see where things go and what happens. But let's talk about right off the bat, and this is a really loaded question. Who is Paul Chek and what is his mission in the world? Paul Chek: Well, you know, the truth is, the answer for who is Paul Chek is really the answer for all of us. And that is, I'm some kind of a unique marriage of earth, water, fire, air, space, and consciousness. But I think a more kind of direct answer is that, you know, when I think of who I am, I really feel like I'm somebody who has devoted their life to seeking truth and sharing what the process and the synthesis of gathering. You know, the many bits and pieces of scraps that you have to get in this quest for knowledge and truth. Two, test them and synthesize them into what seems to be universal. Principles are consistently reliable ways of perceiving and relating and engaging the world. And as you know, my, my life has been oriented around two things. Health, which includes physical, emotional, mental and spiritual health and what really is true fitness, what's, you know, functional fitness or baseline fitness, functional fitness, and then sport or activity specific fitness. And how do you get somebody from the state that they're at walking in the door to first physiological and structural balance to then build them up to be the person that their dream is requesting of them. So really that sort of an encapsulation of who, you know, I perceived myself to be. Wade Lightheart: Okay. And the mission through the Paul Chek, you have the Paul Chek Institute and I, and that's kind of a branch of expression for you. I think you're much greater than the Institute itself. It's kind of like, but let's talk about the Chek Institute because of all the industry professionals I've met and, and you know, I've, I've met a lot of the big names and all those, you know, been to the seminars and all that sort of stuff. You're probably one of the most, I would say, subtle influencers of movement concepts in the world today. In other words, if you kind of dig down into communities and cities or you go around the world, sooner or later you end up with the Paul Chek practitioner somewhere who figures out the unfit irritable. So tell, tell me how, tell me about the Paul Chek Institute. What that's about and why people seem to, what's interesting is is is so many, when I talk to Chek practitioners, what's fascinating is they kind of go on this journey of health and fitness and study and education and learning and they come from a sport or an activity or whatever it happens to be, or an institution or a profession and somehow they wind your way into the Chek Institute and then they just did. Wade Lightheart: They become Chukies. That's what the world knows. They become Chukies and they dive into into your world what is so powerful, a boat, the Chek Institute, the Chek principles and how that's just just permeated the whole world with some of the best coaches in the entire world. How did that come to being? Because that's an incredible accomplishment that I, that needs to be acknowledged and recognized. How did that happen? Paul Chek: Well, it happened. It happened really right in the beginning of my military career as the trainer of the United States army boxing team. And I didn't really realize how much that I had learned in my childhood. Both on the farm, my mother being a Yogi for, you know, 30 something years, traveling to India to do initiations, multiple times being raised in the self-realization, fellowship temple and teachings of Yogananda. Mmm. You know, being a child, there was a lot of stress in my family. So athletics was how I vented that and I love to win. I just really have as a young man, winning to me was important because I figured if you're going to do it then why not just go for it? And otherwise, why bother? You know, just no go do something that's non competitive. But so I, I was very immersed in sports from the first grade. Paul Chek: I started with wrestling and pretty much just played everything I could play any excuse to get off the farm so I didn't have to work, you know, shoveling piles of cow shit and cleaning pens and you know, all the work, working, working, working stuff. But you know, I was in a small Valley on Vancouver Island called Comox Valley and you know it, it's intense. You know, I have pretty heavy winters there at times. Our first year there we had eight feet of snow. So for a kid from Los Angeles, that was quite a shock. We had 140 acre sheep farm. It was a working farm. Mmm. So between my pursuits as an athlete and because the competition that was, there's just so many great athletes there. It was crazy. I mean, you know, growing up, one of my buddies became, he was my sparring partner for three years in our boxing club. Paul Chek: He became the world champion in kickboxing at the time in 86 I think 80 maybe 89 he became the world champion. Another one of my buddies that I grew up with in town owned pretty much the only gym in town at the time. He was mr Canada and bodybuilding in, in 1880 1989 I think as well. Two of my other buddies were nationally ranked motocross that I did a lot of racing with. Probably six or eight of my best buddies were black belts and multiple level black belts in various forms of martial arts. And we had our own kickboxing club where we could have weekly meetings to destroy each other. Paul Chek: And a lot of my buddies were elite skiers. So it was just like this hot bed of farm boys that all had this need to express their frustration and father's stress. And, and also we're also very motivated to win. And so it created this intense growth pressure. And so I began studying when I was 12, everything I could find on diet, weightlifting, bodybuilding, Mmm. And just apply, learn and apply, learn and apply. And so when I got to the army boxing team the strange thing was as I was also the Army's representative and triathlon and so the boxers and the team management were kind of baffled by the fact that, you know, we often train six hours a day on the army boxing team and I would be getting up early in the morning to do longer, more intense running like you know, 10, 10 K and half marathon type training fairly regularly. Paul Chek: Plus I would go to, when they went to lunch, I would go to the swimming pool and usually put a mile in and just get some food in me as quick as I could. And then after training I would get on my bicycle and go do anywhere from 2260 miles in the evening and I'd do a hundred miles on the weekends and they could not figure for the life of them how I could possibly, and I fought on the boxing team before I became the trainer, so they were watching how I was very good as a fighter, but I was also doing all this intense training. So when my company commander came to me and said, if you want to leave the boxing team and train full time to win the army triathlon, I will support that because I've got a lot of money to bet on you. Paul Chek: I need you to win. And so I went back and told the boxing team I was going to stop fighting and train full time for triathlon. And they said, Oh God, don't do that. We'll give you the job as as trainer because whatever the hell you're doing, it's working. You can fight hard all three rounds the way you eat, the way you train. We've never seen anything like it. How would you like to become the trainer and take over all the conditioning management of the gym and nutrition coaching for the for the boxers. And I said, you know, something inside me just knew that was what I was supposed to do. And fortunately for me, the team physician was an osteopath and he was quite open to discussing things with me. So I got a two year internship and how to care for acute sports injuries. Paul Chek: And we had plenty of them cause the boxing gym was also the headquarters for many army sports, such power lifting, track and field. And I was interacting with wide variety of athletes and there's 80 at that time there was 79,000 soldiers on Fort Bragg. So it's like being in a, you know, I grew up in a town of only like 16,000 people. So there was like being on Fort Bragg was like being in a big city on Vancouver Island. And so I really got to use my creativity, what I've learned about weightlifting, what I'd learned about diet, the first book I ever read in my life, I hated reading. But the first book I ever read, I finished it in the army on a bus on the way home from the Pentagon where we had just done a 10 mile inter military race, army, Navy, air force, Marines. Paul Chek: And it was nutrition and a holistic approach, but Rudolph Ballentine. So I had really gravitated toward these holistic principles because that's how my parents ran our farm. You know, everything we ate pretty much came off the farm. My mother being a Yogi was very oriented toward natural eating, which is heavy in Yogananda's philosophy. We bought, we bought food that we needed when we needed it from a local kind of hippy co-op where people got together and got good food and okay, so plus being raised on a farm, you know, my father was very intense ass kicker, get the job done, no complaints, do it or you won't like the consequences. So I really learned how to push through discomfort. I mean doing things like swinging access for eight hours straight and clearing land and you know, building and digging fence, post holes and, and a long, long string of endless stuff. Paul Chek: So I actually got in an extremely good physical condition. And so when I carried that into sports, it was already, like, I had a lot of preconditioning so I was almost a jump ahead of a lot of people. And so when I got in the army, it was really just, you know, without a depth of knowledge, anything even close to what I have now, it was really, and I'd also been trained by the monks to meditate. And how to con, you know, calm my mind and how to you know, find my center in the middle of a storm and, and how to understand concepts such as what the universe is or what God is or what space and time are. And so when you put all that together and you put me on an army boxing team where I become the trainer, I had the freedom to implement weightlifting and circuit training and I used to be an aerobics instructor before I joined the military. Paul Chek: So I used that knowledge and skill, begin modifying their diets cause they ate like crap and just ate crap and had a lot of problem losing weight and doing a lot of stupid crash dieting and just silly stuff using various too. It's accelerate kidney urine production to drop weight. The stuff that really costs them, you know. So when I put all this together and I, long story made short as a triathlete, I was in so much physical discomfort from the hard training that I needed the experience of my grandmother massaging. As a child I had asthma and none of the drugs or anything did anything like my grandmother's massage. And so when I came to the situation where I was training so hard, I was just really a need a massage. I asked my wife if she would give it a try and so she, I just got some like, you know, baby oil or something. Paul Chek: And even with no skill, the difference it made in my training was phenomenal. I was just blown away at how much it aided my recovery. And so I started reading sports, massage therapy books and everything I could find on sports massage therapy. And I intuitively implemented this on the army boxing team. So I became the first person ever in the entire history of the boxing team to offer massage therapy to all the fighters. And so between the massage, the diet, the designing, the conditioning programs, and I led the fighters through the workouts. I didn't point fingers, I did everything I asked them to do, which they loved and they hated because I was in good enough shape to really, you know, put it on him. And it just grew into this sort of excitement, this passion because the team doctor reported within about the first three months that the rate of injury was going down. Paul Chek: Like he'd never seen it and the athletes were performing far better. They were fighting way harder and longer through the third round where they were having problems with that before. Mmm. Just there was so many positives and my father was a guy that did not have the good job gene. So to be in the military and to be winning so many awards, I set many military records got two records in the obstacle course in different posts. I set the record for the most pushups in two minutes in the 82nd Airborne Division. I got many you know, army achievement medals for various things that I did. And so I was in this sort of like very inspirational hotbed with very highly motivated men that were, you know, really aggressive, get the job done, kick some ass, let's win. And then having that team, Dr. Charles Pitluck there, started opening my technical awareness and then I started reading books on sports medicine to understand the body from a medical doctor's perspective and how they treated inflammatory problems and tendons and Mmm. Paul Chek: And so that kind of triggered me to the point that when I left the army, I, I knew that I wanted to mix sports, massage therapy, postural awareness. I went to the sports massage training institute, which was phenomenal. And I got eventually got my license as a holistic health practitioner, which allows me by the state of California law to do anything holistic with any kind of problem, from psychological problems to health problems, to whatever. I can do, massage, I can do meditation, I can do plants and herbs, anything that's natural. So it was the perfect license for me because there was really like almost no barriers on it, you know. And I just continued to study and travel all over the world and learn from the very best doctors and therapists I could find no matter where they were at. And I put that all together. Paul Chek: And having left the army and starting my own sports massage business, I then got hired by the largest physical therapy clinic in San Diego. They had their own surgical center. So I had 13 orthopedic and neurosurgeons I was working with. I could go to surgery anytime I want. I ultimately did five cadaver dissections, two through the university of Oregon health sciences university, one through giveaway and multiple through the surgeons cause they did regular cadaver dissections to test new surgical techniques and just to review their anatomy. And then working with all these physical therapists and athletic trainers gave me a chance to share concepts with them. And they, the reason I got hired is because the owner of the clinic had had three knee surgeries and was about to have to have a fourth because her knee locked up and she had a frozen knee for the third time. Paul Chek: And the surgeon said, if I have to manipulate this knee, I may never be able to play golf or tennis. Again, both of which she was very active in. So I had rehabilitated a guy named Kevin Macquarie who was on Nike's running team. Then it was as a marathoner and he had bilateral Achilles problems that, you know, pretty much were ending his career and nobody could figure him out. I straightened right out in about a month and so he told the owner of the clinic before you let them operate on you, you got to go see this guy that I know. Long story made short, I got her more range of motion in one session than they'd been able to get for her in months. Then she asked me to come work for them. I was the first massage therapist in San Diego ever to be hired by a physical therapy clinic. Paul Chek: And because the physical therapists always thought of massage therapists like prostitutes. So it was a bit of a shock for them. And then she asked me to condition her cause I had got her range of motion back. But once I started working for her, she asked me to condition her and I, there was a lot of political tension because there was a lot of looking down the nose at me and there was also a lot of jealousy. Like how did this guy with no college degree figure out this woman when we couldn't figure her out? So there was a lot of kind of edginess, you know, and so I said, why don't you let them work with you? And if they give up or you give up, then I'll take it over because then whatever happens will be respected knowing again that they did their best. Paul Chek: And sure enough, after about three months, she wasn't getting better. She was getting worse. So I took her over, rehabilitated her got her strength back, got her where she could play golf and tennis again. And so that triggered off a level of mutual awareness and respect that led to me spending four years being treated pretty much as an equal because they had evidence that I was certainly able to do things they couldn't do with their degrees and their skills. And so that just catapulted me into a deep, deep exploration of everything to do with the body, the mind, the soul, the, the the glandular system, the organ systems. And I basically became famous for the guy to send medical failures too. And I had doctors from all over the world sending me cases. And I ended up working for many professional sports teams that did a lot of consulting for the Chicago Bulls and the Jordan era. Paul Chek: They were the first ones to take on my Swiss ball and my scientific core conditioning approach. And it spread wildly from there to other sports teams. The Lakers were the ones that picked it up next from them. But I've worked for so many professional sports teams all over the world and so many sports Olympic committee limit, Olympic committees, university teams militaries, you name it. And you know, the reason I kept getting results with jobs with these people is because I got results that they could not deny with an IVR. I've taken three elite athletes, famous athletes out of medical retirement that were forced into medical retirement, all of which came to me and I completely rehabbed them and got them in very good shape and they all passed their medical exams, which is extremely rare because if an athlete goes back after being forced into medical retirement, they can actually sue the team for falsely retiring them. Paul Chek: So Gary Roberts, I rehabilitated cause Charles Poliquin came to an impasse with them. He passed his medical exams, which I had to attend because the doctor was very concerned about letting him back with all the problems he'd had. But he ended up making 25 million more dollars before he finally retired. Mmm. Ricky Stuart, at that time, the highest paid rugby player in the world was forced to medical retirement. I brought him back and he played for two or three years after that. Richard Dunwoody, a famous horse jockey, horse racing jockey, was forced into medical retirement after 40 bad falls from horses racing and being trampled and all sorts of stuff. And he had some severe issues. But I rehabbed him and he went back and won the triple crown and wrote about me in his autobiography and, and sent me a beautiful big picture, which you probably saw on my wall and, and, and a copy of the autobiography to say thank you. Paul Chek: So really what kicked off the Chek Institute was, I, I, it was really Charles Poliquin, he was a friend of mine and I helped him get more known in the US he asked me if I could help him get a job with the bowls. So I inspired elver meal to bring them on and consult with them at the bowls. And Charles asked me if I would train his top two strength coaches in the approach I use for assessing core function and optimizing core strength and conditioning. And those two guys who are very, very experienced strength coaches said what I was teaching was just like so far outside of anything they'd ever seen or heard of that they really both felt I should start an Institute. And so at that time I had enough knowledge that also after I left sports and orthopedic physical therapy clinic, me and a partner started our own physical therapy clinic. And prior to that I was working for a chiropractor for two years who was one of the instructors in my massage school. So by the time I actually started the Institute, a two years training with an osteopathic position in the military, sports massage therapy training, holistic, a health practitioner training. I did my neuromuscular therapy training through the st John Institute. Mmm. I had, Mmm. Paul Chek: So then I worked for this chiropractor for two years who specialize in athletic injuries. Then I worked in a physical therapy clinic for four years. Then I owned a physical therapy clinic for three years. So by the time I actually got to where I was training people and starting my own institute, I had quite a lot of experience and, and, and you know, I did a lot of research. I published a lot of articles. I've published hundreds of articles around the world. I was involved in developing research studies. I had, I've got several patents of my own as you know, as, as an inventor and medical and an exercise equipment. And I come from a background of fabrication, building my own race cars and roll cages and building my own engines. And so I have the skill to, to kind of see where there's a hole and fill it. Paul Chek: And so the Institute was really me taking all the knowledge that I had from each of these different areas, be it nutrition lifestyle issues musculoskeletal issues. Mmm. I had to do a lot of work with people's mental, emotional state because a lot of the people that came to see me were in severe pain and had been for many years. And I found over and over again, there's a huge psychological component and chronic pain and they're all my assessments kept pointing to belief systems. Mmm. And so I kept running into issues where people's problems tracked back to beliefs that were related to their beliefs about God. Unfortunately, my mother, having been a Christian scientist and become yoga, gave Paul Chek: Me a chance to really heal a lot of that Christian programming. And be able to spend time. I spent my 15th year in summer camp with the monks where I could ask any question I want. And these guys were so enlightened and so clean and clear and precise in their answers that even as a 15 year old kid, I actually turned 16 in summer camp. I felt safe and I felt like I was getting real honest answers that carried me. It's through the rest of my life. And so the Institute really became the place where I took everything that I had tested for years and years. And I had a very, very busy practice. I mean, I got so busy in the physical therapy clinic, we had hire three other massage therapists to support the load. And I was, I was referring the largest physical therapy clinic in San Diego, 36% of their business just from people trying to come find me from all over the world. Paul Chek: So by the time I started the Institute, I had traveled all over the world, studied with many great doctors, therapists, teachers and had had enough clinical time to integrate, master the Swiss ball, develop the first conditioning videos in the world for Swiss balls, introduced them to the weightlifting industry. I'd develop my primal pattern movement system. Mmm. You know, so I, I had enough that I was getting encouragement from 360 degrees to teach this stuff. And I also read intense level of frustration with the insurance industry because they were ripping us off so bad that we couldn't run our physical therapy clinic and make a decent living because they kept sending us like $16 on $135 a building or 40 bucks. And so when the opportunity came to sell it to a large corporation, I took that money that we made because we made a couple hundred grand. Paul Chek: And I split that with my partner and use that money to start the Chek Institute. And so that really just became the basis from which I launched off in 95. And, and that's what I've been doing is just continuing to study, learn, practice, grow, work with challenging cases. Uyou know, and I've also got my license now as a medicine man and spirit guide. So I, I finally reached the point where when I started doing research on psychedelics and,udid a year of training with a doctor that uses him in his practice. Mmm. Penny felt it was very important for me to get federal protections so that I didn't,u get sued or anything like that. So I went through the native American council and got my medicine men spirit guide license so I can use plant medicines legally and healing ceremonies. And I've conducted over 400 healing ceremonies at this point. Uso, you know, the plant medicines also grew me more than anything. I would honestly say more than any books or libraries and helped heal,u Paul Chek: You know, potentially lifetimes of pain and also reinforce my meditation and Tai Chi practice. And I, I spent time with master Fong Ha learning from one of the top masters in the world, how to do Tai Chi. I took medical type qigong training and applied that. And I did a lot of that as research for my book, how to move and be healthy because I felt that people were so burnt out from working too much and exercising too hard in the gym that I needed to take exercise into its feminine expression. And so I hired master Fong Ha. We'll actually did it for me for free, but I offered to pay and I told them I want to learn the basic principles of Tai Chi so I can develop a system of movement that actually cultivates more energy per unit of time than it costs that allows people to pump, detoxify and vitalize their bodies, but doesn't require the memory of a lot of complex Tai-Chi movements. Paul Chek: Because I've met people that had been in Tai Chi for two or three years and still couldn't get out of their head. They still couldn't meditate. They were so focused on where their hands were, where their body wasn't. So I said, you know, that they've intellectualized Tai Chi too much. So after two years of working with him, I had developed what is in my book has zone exercises and through testing with my patients and students, they got phenomenal results with these very simple mindless techniques because they locked onto the very principles that really all the inner arts are based on, but allowed a person to move dynamically so that heady people could actually be engaged in the movement. So it was just enough for the ego to focus on, to keep it busy. And there was simple enough moments that the ego kind of goes into this half awake, half asleep state where the meditation bridge opens the doors. Paul Chek: And so kind of in a, believe it or not, that is a nutshell, but so that's what really brought the Chek Institute onto the map. And I've had so much success with elite athletes and sports teams that the word just spread. In fact, the New Zealand military sent two of their top guys to study with me for four years to revamp the entire mill, New Zealand militaries conditioning programs. The Navy seals sent three people in. Mmm. Two of which went back to rehab, Navy seal conditioning. You know, I've had all sorts of kind of unique opportunities like that due to the reaches of my articles and my successes. Incredible. So the Chek Institute will guess will be coming up on 25 years next year. Yeah. Which is pretty impressive. One of the things that strikes me is you live your principles and you're in incredible physical condition. Wade Lightheart: Not bad for an old guy. I mean we haven't revealed your age. I don't know if you reveal that or whatever, but you know, we went out and we're lifting rocks on your property. And what's very interesting I think is one of the unique aspects that I've noticed with the Chek Institute and what you provide is, and maybe this cause we kind of shared some stories about our past, which we grew in these environments where you're not sitting in these wonderful linear planes that are familiar in most gyms that people go to or exercise programs. Is this a functional level of strength in a, a functional level of movement that you have? And, and it translates not only into your physical condition, but your capacity to move, particularly as you age. I doubt there's most 20 year olds could do the things that you do now. Paul Chek: So a lot of them try, but they, they soon find out that the old man's got a surprise for them. In fact, one of the most common things I get accused of is using anabolic steroids. And I look at him and say, you obviously know nothing about steroids cause I'm 170 pound guy. I have no indications of steroids and said, you know, the steroids, I use your chicken, carrots, broccoli, real food. And yes. So the, for the listeners, I'm 58 and, and I still regularly put it hard on young professional athletes that seek my coaching and even guys that can lift more than me in the gym when they come out to the stones with me, they can't get things off the ground that I can stack chest high. Yes, they all go, hell, the friggin hell did you just do that? And I say, well, you first got to connect to the stone. And and ask it if it wants to take a ride with you. Wade Lightheart: So one of the things, and there's a promotion a bit of, we'll probably put a link to it as well. I think that was really good. That's kind of summarizes your journey. And I thought something that was pretty unique that you mentioned is that your, when when you coach or train a Chek practitioner, you have like a five and a half years for them or I believe you mentioned on it. Can you kind of, can you talk about what it is to be a Chek practitioner and maybe the levels and what happens when, you know, how does a person become that? How do they move through it and what is the foundational components that being a Chek Institute practitioner is what, what does that mean as opposed to say, getting a degree from university of California or taking an international certification course or provincial course or a state course. What is the difference between what you do and what other people do? Paul Chek: Yeah, well the difference really is a bunch of things. One. Paul Chek: My Institute is multidisciplinary. So we have many medical doctors, nurses, chiropractors, osteopaths, physical therapists, physiotherapists, naturopaths from Scandinavia. We've got housewives, we've got people that, you know, used to be truck drivers who had checked professional, rehabilitated people of all walks of life. And they go, Oh my God, I've got to do this, this works so well, I've got to do this. And so, you know, if it's out there and there's probably there's over 10,000 Chek professionals now. So my only criteria is that you can pass the prerequisite courses. I don't care if you're a truck driver, a lager or a surgeon. And I don't make any ex exceptions. I've had many people say, can I skip this prerequisite cause I studied this and this in school. And every time I've let someone do that, they turned out to be a royal pain in the backside in class because they were way far behind what should be known. Cheers by the way. Some nice tobacco and herb can help. Wade Lightheart: Can you talk about that right now? Cause it's kind of a good segue. We've got to try, I got to experience some of your smoke concoction, we'll call it. What is it that you're doing and why are you doing it if that's okay. Paul Chek: Well, I think it's interesting. This is a bag of vaporized herb, so there's no fire it actually just, it's a copped up food to hut be hydrated. It was invented for medical marijuana delivery, you know, many years ago. And it pushes hot air through a little basket that contains herbs and I, I use clean tobaccos that are not grown with chemicals, so I don't get poisoned by them. The grand majority of which are or certified organic. And then I use a variety of herbs. So any tea that you can drink, you can vaporize and it does the basic same thing. So if you drink a sleepy time tea and you vaporize it, it'll, it'll make you sleepy. If you drink a gin Singh and it warms your body up, well if you smoke it, it'll do the same thing, but a lot faster. Paul Chek: Within three seconds, it'll be superior delivery system right here. It's a rapid delivery system. But you know, what happened is I research all this because I'm very interested in all aspects of holistic health. And so when I went through my midlife crisis when I was 50, I realized I had given so much of myself away that I was dying from a lack of, of pleasuring myself doing things just for me. And so I made a promise to myself, if I couldn't make my work enjoyable to me, then I wasn't going to do it anymore. I was just going to retire and go do something else, like paint a rock gym and but you can use vaporize herbs to modulate your biochemistry just like you can use any kind of supplement. Mmm. And so I typically, because I do a lot of writing and a lot of coaching, I used things mostly that bring me more into a sort of a meditative state where I'm walking the line between cognitive engagement and intuitive reception. Paul Chek: So I'm listening behind the words and I'm connecting to the person's soul while I'm coaching them. And if you're busy or if there's a lot going on, sometimes it's hard to shift into that balance point just like it's hard for people to stop everything and meditate. And I found using the herbs that I can choose the right herbs to create the environment. So I basically, in modern parlance, I'm biohacking in a very natural, organic, holistic way, not using gadgets per se, but using herbs. And because you're using a vaporizer and there's no fire, you're getting IS estimate only about 30% of the nicotine. So I smoke these things all day long as you know, and I can go off of them cold Turkey and I'd basically just feel tired for about a day. Like I'm jet lagged. And then after that, there's no symptoms whatsoever. Whereas if you were smoking tobacco, you could get very addicted to nicotine. Paul Chek: So I also use it as a transition tools for people to come off of various drugs. Cause I work with a lot of addicts from crack cocaine to cocaine to, you know, pain pills to you if you, if there's an addict out there from gambling to sex to exercise to work. I've worked with them. And so I find this approach is, is such a much healthier option and it allows a person to use something to modulate their biochemistry and create states that helped them realize that there's much safer ways to create state shifts. Because what I've found working with thousands of people is most people are actually suffering from a lack of meaning and being caught in the capitalistic you know, money wheel where they're just running all day to make money, overspending on credit cards, trying to pay for kids' colleges, whatever it is, and they don't have any chance to live. Paul Chek: So they, I ended up getting addicted to things that help them cope with that stress. And the deeper, you know, our culture has lost its myth. So everybody's kind of like wondering around in the great abyss of the world without really having a sense of why we're all here, what we're all doing. And what's it's all for. And then you, you know, you have consumerism has taken over as the myths, so people are spending so much money trying to find this connection that we've lost by being too disconnected from nature. So this allows me to take nature and put it right in my bloodstream and celebrate and worship, you know, this is a ancient as you know, a practice of ceremony for native Americans and natives all over the world. And you know, I sort of live my life in a state of worship. I really, each day is sort of a living prayer for me. And, and so I Paul Chek: Use these herbs as, as a vehicle for deep connection, state shift and just to create the sense that I'm not working so hard, I can stop, go smoke a bag, work. Right. it just brings me a lot of joy. Wade Lightheart: Yeah. It's you know, I was my first time to share in that when we were, when I was down there and it, it is remarkable how it is. We say as a state modulator, I think it's pretty fascinating and it feels great. I'm pretty intuitive about myself. It doesn't feel like taking something bad into the body. There's definitely a positive enhancement and a cognitive enhancement for sure and a state enhancement that I experienced. And I think it really translated also in our podcast as well. When we were, we were talking there, I noticed there was differences in my voice and how I sound and it's, it's fascinating to pay attention to these things. Going back though, we, I know we got onto, we got a little sidetracked here on this and cause it's just, that was an interesting segue, but let's talk about these preliminary courses that you have people to go through before they get to maybe the more advanced training and why that's so critical as a foundational piece and the Chek Institute system and philosophy. Paul Chek: Yes. So when I began the Chek Institute, there was four levels of training. I grossly overestimated how much people can handle. So I used to have, you know, veteran physical therapists and chiropractors breaking down in tears in my class and just throwing their hands in the air and walking out or writing me letters, they would just disappear and leave me a letter saying, you know, I'm so embarrassed that I, I just don't feel, I feel like I'm so far off the mark. And I had no idea there was exercise professionals anywhere in the world that had this level of knowledge. And so I realized I had to break the course material up and build prerequisite courses to get them ready for it. And the, you know, there's a fair bit of technicality. There's a lot of goniometric assessment, joint assessment, neurological assessment. I mean it's a full proper orthopedic assessment, cranial nerve assessment. Paul Chek: I mean, I really want to identify what's causing a person's problems, not just do allopathic palliative care cause it just doesn't really work. Obviously we look at the state of the world. And so originally the plan was, would take four years because I designed the system. So you'd take a blog, a training, then you have to go spend at least six months applying it and you have to turn in. I used to require 10 actual case histories with names and phone numbers I could follow up on which I graded myself and I wouldn't let anybody go to the next level if they couldn't meet the criteria to demonstrate that they were applying the practice, the, the assessment techniques, the program Paul Chek: Design techniques and all the factors I was teaching them and I was heavy into the diet stuff. But there was so much to teach in the science of corrective and high-performance exercise that what happened is after a few years I kept having all these students consulting with the cases that they were having a hard time with. And almost always it was some kind of glandular visceral or diet and lifestyle problem that they were overlooking, which I already did but couldn't put into the program cause it was just a massive other field of study. And so ultimately I decided I had to start my, what was then the nutrition and lifestyle coaching program. So I put together a one week intensive course, which you know, sometimes the classes would go 10 hours a day cause there was so much to teach them. But I found that almost everybody that was coming to the classes were very, very unhealthy people that wanted to go out and tell other people how to get healthy. Paul Chek: And then I put together the next level, which is now the third level and they would show up again looking just as bad yet they'd spent months telling everybody else what to do. And that goes completely against my philosophy. So I said, okay, that's enough of that. So I took out the most basic elements, what was in my book, how to move and be healthy plus a few other more practical application concepts. And I built holistic lifestyle coach level one which is specifically designed to teach all interested people how to achieve baseline health. And it's the prerequisite to get into HLC, to holistic lifestyle coach level two which is my holistic lifestyle coaching program to teach you how to do it professionally. And HLC three is the advanced training program where I go into much deeper issues such as infant development, a much more comprehensive approach to glen and organ reflexes. Paul Chek: Medical dowsing. I take them through a system of maps I developed to show them what the life processes and how to identify where a person's at in their stage of life. What are the challenges with each stage of life. I show them how to do a personality profile so they know how to better coach people. So it's a very comprehensive course. But once I started making people do HLC, one I noticed they would show up much healthier. And I mean I've had people lose 90 pounds between taking HLC one and HLC two and I've got loads and loads of, you know, mind-boggling case histories and then they were ready because you can't coach people effectively if you're not actually having visceral knowledge of what it's like to kill parasites or do heavy metal detox or colon cleanses, liver cleanses, kidney cleanses you know, all the things that they were prescribing to other people. Paul Chek: These things can be quite intense and there can be, you know, complications. I remember one time for example, I was, you know, years and years ago I was, I had a guy who was a, a medical drug salesman and he had a bad case of parasites and his intestines were very badly blocked up. And I had put him on a colon cleanse product with anti-parasitics and all of a sudden one day I got a phone call in the clinic, I can't remember his name, but they said, you know, so-and-so needs to speak to you right now. And Oh by the way, he's quite upset. So he's calling me on his mobile phone and this is right back in the very beginning of mobile phones. And he's like, what the hell, man? He says, you didn't tell me what was going to happen to me, but what are you talking about? Paul Chek: He goes, I'm actually sitting in traffic right now and I just shit my pants and I'm on my way. I'm on my way to a very important meeting. And he says like, I've got a whole seat full in my very nice and BMW convertible. I am sitting in a pool of shit. And he says, I thought I was just going to fart and this happened. He says, why didn't you tell me? You know? And I, you know, I had had experiences like that, but I only highlight that because if the practitioners don't realize what they're getting a person into, they don't know how to pace them. And there's a tendency to throw everything in the kitchen sink at people. So you've got people doing this to drug those, herbs that supplement in there, like they don't know what the fuck's going on. And so I really felt it was very important for people to do everything to themselves that they were going to prescribe to other people. Paul Chek: And then I would, you know, I was trained in functional medicine testing and I worked with one of the giants of that in the, in the world who actually invented salivary testing. And so having done a lot of this on myself and realizing, wow, you know, you go too fast with a heavy metal detox, your life will be very shitty for a few days. I can completely sidetrack you. So what happened in a nutshell was I grew that the corrective and the high performance exercise program, and I built a lot of prerequisite courses to make sure whoever walked in that classroom had the anatomy, the physiology, and the basic sciences down and it was graded tests. And then they found that they can digest the information much better. And through constantly seeing all these people failing with diet and lifestyle factors, I realized I had to build that training program. Paul Chek: And then because there was so much mental, emotional factors, right? The diet and lifestyle factors will, when you say, well, why do people keep doing that? Right? You ask people, I ask people in large audiences all over the world, mostly doctors, therapists, and strength professionals. How many of you right now, no, you're either over exercising or under exercising, but keep doing it and almost every hand goes up. How many of you know you need to get to bed earlier than you are, but you keep staying up late at night and it's costing you almost every hand goes up. How many of you know you're eating shit that messes your body up but keep doing it? Almost every hand goes up. How many of you are doing jobs that aren't making you happy, but you're telling yourself you've got to do it for money and it's causing problems in your own sense of self and in your relationships. Paul Chek: Almost every hand goes up. So the point I'm making is, and this basically is based on my four doctor model, Dr happiness, Dr diet, Dr quiet, Dr movement, which is the encapsulation of a living philosophy. If you don't have those four doctors, believe me, you will be spending a lot of time and money on medical health. And so what I showed my students, cause they're the ones too that I would ask these questions, is you all are aware intellectually of what your challenges, but you keep making the same mistakes over and over again. Which means you have to look at the beliefs that are driving your behaviors. All actions are the result of some kind of belief, most of which is unconscious, right? This is this, this is the tricky part. But yes, we'll get caught in this. So yeah, so what happens is, you know, think of how many times you know yourself or myself or anybody reaches for a food but they know it's going to cause them problems. Paul Chek: But do it anyhow. (Sorry, I got a little dry smoke in my lungs.) So then I say, okay, well why do you keep doing that? I look at myself, why do I do that? Well, I can tell you for me, again, it's almost always because I spent so much of my life helping other people. I need something that is gratifying, something that's out of the box. And paradoxically because it's taboo either, even if it's your own taboo. If I eat that, it's gonna make me itch or it's going to give me pimples, or it's gonna make me feel like shit, but I'm going to have real fun eating it, or I'm right. I'm going to drink that, I'm going to get drunk, even though I gotta go to work tomorrow, I'm going to, I'm going to drink and I'm going to drink till I don't fucking care anymore, or I'm going to smoke or I'm going to do this, or drugs or whatever. Paul Chek: And so what you see is that there's an unconscious cage that's been built and that's been built largely out of mom's ideas, dad's ideas, the educational systems, ideas, all of which are built on religious ideas, right? So without going into a long exposition, which I could easily do as you know but the reality of it is 85% of the people in the world claim religious affiliation. That means 85% out of every person you're ever going to see as a therapist, coach, doctor, trainer, whatever, has religious programming. Usually starting right from childhood when the mind is wide open and has no defenses. And so what you see is the so-called commandments turn out to be perfect to pit you against your instincts, your sexual instincts, your instincts for food. Religions have real restrictions on sex restrictions, on food, restrictions, on dance, restrictions, on music, restrictions on clothing. Paul Chek: I mean, the list is long and so everybody's got this idea in their head that they have to follow these rules because this is what God wants. And if you don't do it, you're going to burn in hell or whatever the story might be. And so at the, at the basis of all this and this sacrifice yourself, give everything up. Jesus gave everything away. You know, these kinds of themes, especially in the Abrahamic religions, which is Islam, Christianity and Judaism. So I kept running into all this over and over and over again. So I would ask people questions and I would, each question would lead to another question. Okay, why did you do that? Because of this? Why did you that? Because this, why are you staying in the relationship when you're unhappy? You've been married for 20 years and you just told me you weren't even happy after the first year. Paul Chek: Oh, well, because in my marriage vows, it's till death. Do you part? I don't want to burn in hell. So, okay. So you think God wants you to live in a relationship where you're not capable of sharing love when your own religion says God is love. So what I found over and over again is that the root of all these unconscious beliefs with large, with a small amount of exceptions, are religious ideas. And I get atheist and say, well, that doesn't apply to me. I never, I don't believe in all that. I go, yeah, but you're raised in a school system that's based on Christian ideology, your road names, your holidays. Almost everything that you do in your life is linked to Christianity in this country or in Europe. Wade Lightheart: And I've found with a lot of atheist as well. Many who I think are, are in extremely integrous people in my experience, but their beliefs are actually a reactive response to that programming and they're caught in the trap again because they're still out of tune with them, their essence, essential nature. And not to jump the gun here, but how is it that you've been able to kind of Wade Lightheart: Move through not just a, an an exercise philosophy or a way to live or kind of a way with, you know, 40 Living I believe is what you, you turn that the four doctors strategy. How is it that you've been able to kind of deprogram that spiritual kind of misdirection that people find themselves caught in and synthesize that in their physicality? Because as you know, at the highest levels, when you really get to the end of the story, it breaks down to these subconscious, you know, archetypes and programs and patterns and behaviors. And when you change that, then everything else just seems to me. How did you get to that point? Because it's very rare that people in the exercise game, if you will, or the fitness game or the performance game, you know, in their career actually go out there on a limb and speak so forthright about those and how they fit. And that's, I think one of the key aspects that makes you so unique is that you're not afraid about making these statements. You're not afraid of talking about great spirit. You're not afraid of talking about the psychological components of how you move and how that translates. How did you get to that particular place? Paul Chek: Well, quite frankly, I had to go through it myself. You know when my mother became a Yogi at the time I was 12, but she'd been going to a Christian science church and I found it absolutely confusing and scary because here I am as an eight year old kid be told, being told God loves you, talking about angels and heaven. And the next thing you know, we're singing onward Christian soldiers marching off to war with the cross of Jesus going on before. And I'm like, wait a minute, I'm really confused here. And every time I would try to ask a question, I would just get told to be quiet or you know, treated like a prisoner of war or some damn thing. Wade Lightheart: I'd have to say, I have to say I had the, sorry to interrupt, but it's so interesting cause I had the exact same realization when I went from Sunday school to the big church and in Sunday school it was Jesus loved me and everything was great and I thought this was a great thing. And then I go to the church and the guy said, well if you don't do this, you're going to be thrown into the pit of fire and burn in hell forever. And I was like, what happened to the loving God? I remember having this conflict, like this is crazy. Somebody got this picture wrong. Is he a, is he a psychopath or is he a hell, like why is there a dichotomy? And it drove me crazy and of course the yogananda help resolve that for me. He had a beautiful explanation about that. And of course he influenced your life as well. Continue on though. I just, I just had to make that little segue cause I share that same realization. Paul Chek: I totally appreciate that. And it's a, it's as common as white bread out there, especially for those of us that have enough self esteem to say, wait a minute, I've got to take charge of my own inner life. Because, you know, waiting for somebody to fix me is really dangerous. It's obviously not working for everybody else to do that. You know, the only answer you get is, Oh, you have anxiety or you have depression or you are a bipolar. They come up with all sorts of fancy names to push you into a box and give you a drug. And, and you know, usually it's downhill from there. But you know, really for my own journey and which is like I said, my style is to really penetrate myself and try to find what is it that I've got to heal. And, and once I've healed that, then as I'm sure you know, once you heal something inside of yourself, for example, if you heal your stuff, gluten intolerance, the next shopping mall you walk through, you see everybody's gluten intolerant. Paul Chek: You see it everywhere. If you heal yourself from a sacroiliac joint injury, you know what it looks like, then you see them everywhere. So whatever we heal creates vision. And so as I spent time with amongst and learn these concepts and saw the stark contrast between Christianity and yoga, I'm like, wow, this is like gnarly. How, how lost and confused people in these Abrahamic religions are and how their model of God is really so far from God. It's, it's scary really. And it starts wars. It's, you know, religious differences are the number one cause of wars, which is the number one cause of death on this planet. And so a couple of steps happen. One, I had to work with myself too. After my first marriage of 17 years. We were together from the time I was 16 my son was born when I was 18 he's 40 now. Paul Chek: I realized I could not be in a monogamous relationship because the pain of wanting to cheat, to get laid, and have the ability to share intimate connection and love with females, get being, not able to do that due to religious ideology and preconceived notions of, you know, our, our marriage vows. And she was in the same boat. We discussed it a lot. So after I got a divorce, I said, okay, I can't be in a relationship with a woman that wants me to be monogamous. So I spent a lot of time exploring and being very forthright with women saying I'm not cut out from an origami. I did it for 17 years and it left both of us in a state where we didn't feel whole or complete. And I remember I was a young person, so you know, my son was born when I just turned 18. Paul Chek: We were together since I was 16 so I didn't really have time to go out and kind of so my oats and play the field. So I had that part of my life missing. So when I, long story made sure that when I met Penny, I just said to her, you know, when it was obvious that we were, you know, serious together, I said to her, I can't be in a monogamous marriage. I, I, it doesn't mean I don't love you. It just means that I have to have the freedom because I never want to be dishonest. I, I, it's, my heart hurts too much to tell lies to somebody that I love. She was happy with that and she's European, so, and she doesn't and doesn't have kind of a lot of these shackles on her that a lot of people do. And so we just basically made the agreement that we stayed together and live in love in ways that worked for both of us. Paul Chek: And our marriage agreement was, as long as we're happy together, we stayed together. But the day that we realized we don't want to be together anymore, then we move on. So Penny and I gave each other the freedom to be who we are. And that allowed me to explore intimate friendships. I would call them, cause I really ever never had any intention of leaving my wife. I love her way too much. And and this process allowed me to actually find out then I still had a lot of Christian programming alive in me that I didn't realize. For example, I'd be making love to another woman and all I could think of is, Oh my God, I'm cheating on Penny, you know, and, and all this stuff would come up like, where's this coming from? I'm, I'm being completely honest, I'm not going behind anybody's back this, you know, but I realized I had all this programming in me. Paul Chek: And so I had to really work on that. And then when I began my training in the use of psychedelics in 2006, Oh my God, many injuries just brought all sorts of this childhood programming up and I had to come face to face with it. And so what ultimately this process led me to was one I bought, Carl Jung's collected works maybe 20 years ago, 25 years ago. And I've been studying it ever since. And I studied many of the great minds in psychology, depth psychology, Ken Wilber's works and many of the Sufi masters and Mmm. What I, what I did, I studied Joseph Campbell for for many years and still do. I actually began to understand what an archetype was. I studied Carolyn Myss's survival archetypes. I studied the shadow in psychology and so I also studied attachment syndromes, infant attachment, infant attachment and how we develop a secure bond with our parents and what drives an insecure bond. Paul Chek: I studied Dan Siegel's works and I studied how to use an adult attachment interview and I developed my own adult attachment interview so I could identify when there was attachment problems in the beginning of a person's childhood. So I studied world religion extensively for years and years and years, so I could understand each of the kind of mindsets and ways of relating to the world. I studied Houston Smith extensively and so what synthesized out of that was a system of analysis that I teach Chek professionals where we look at your attachment history, what was your early childhood like? And we have a comprehensive questionnaire that shows us where there's problems. We look at, I created a system called the big eight archetypes. So we look at the Mago day, which is the image of DD, what do you believe God is and how is that helping you or not helping you? We look at the mother. How was your relationship with your mother, the father, how's your relationship with your father? We look at the child. What was your childhood like? Then we look at the Mmm saboteur archetype, the victim archetype, the prostitute archetype, and the eternal child, which means anybody that's avoiding adult responsibilities and taking responsibility for their choices, but they should be because they're in an adult role or at the adult age. Paul Chek: And so using that system, and I also have people fill out their health appraisal questionnaire, which analyzes 29 physiological systems. All the glands, all the organs, and even issues like anxiety and stress. And plus, I have a physical examination that's very comprehensive. So by the time I put this all on the table, I know what archetypes of the survival archetypes, where they're victimizing themselves, where they're prostituting themselves, which is working for money, not for love, doing things that they shouldn't be doing, cause they don't like doing them, but they think they have to do where they're sabotaging themselves and other people, whether avoiding the responsibilities of being an adult, which is most people in Abrahamic religions, as Osho says, Abrahamic religions are religions for children. Eastern religions are religions for adults because in the Eastern religions, there's no big daddy in the sky that's going to rescue you or tell you what to do. But in the Abrahamic religions, you always have to follow the rules. And there's an old man in the sky. So it's basically really what I would say is a breakdown of our, our, of our mythic evolution. We're still stuck in needing this sort of, you know, Zeus like figure to tell us what to do and what's going to happen. And dot, dot, dot. Paul Chek: And so basically what I do is I identify where they're at, what is the response to their body from the contents of their mind and their emotions. I do a complete injury history, so I know every injury they've ever had, physical, emotional and mental. And I created what's called an an injury tree, so I can see the chronological history and which, how their body responded over time. I can see things like their education and how that influenced them and what the religion or lack of religion is. And then basically what I do is I craft a plan and depending on the mindset of the individual, I either start them, if they're very trapped in religious ideologies or isms, then I know I need to connect to them through their body first and get results with simple things. So they learn to trust me because going deep into the psyche like that requires tremendous trust in your guide. Paul Chek: If the

Jeff Banman:                 This is going to be a fun episode this week. I've got Benjamin Martin with me. He's a captain in what we will term as a pretty large Metro fire department there in the Virginia area, not Northern Virginia where I grew up, but the lower half of Virginia. Uh, and you know, I getting to know Benjamin reading some of his other stuff in the past, you know, and man, I know you like, like engine company work and I'll forgive that you know right now, but, uh, uh, we'll have some banter about that. But listen, you know, Benjamin is been a pretty, uh, kind of a rising star in some of the areas, was a really unique look at leadership, emotional intelligence, organizational culture. Uh, you know, I listened to you speak here last October, uh, at firehouse expo talking about toxic leadership. Uh, you've had articles across fire engineering, fire rescue, uh, fire department training network, uh, and a bunch of others. And I know now, uh, in conjuncture your full time job, you're also running, uh, embrace the resistance. So let's actually start there cause I think that'll give us a good baseline. And understanding why today's conversation gets to be important. So, Benjamin, thanks for joining me today. I really appreciate it. And you know, give me some, give me some background on why embrace the resistance and what are you resisting?Benjamin Martin:          Well, thanks for having me on Jeff. I've been looking forward to this for a long time, so hopefully we'll, we'll give them something entertaining and informational. So when we talk about it and embrace the resistance, it's really a journey that started 18 years ago. I was a volunteer and I was asked to be a duty officer, which was basically the equivalent of a frontline supervisor. And for me it was, you've been here the longest, which I think at the time had been a year. So a volunteering and I had the seniority and uh, that was it. Like I went in and I worked with people and I barked at them and they barked back and whether it was effective or not, like I don't even know. Looking back now, I don't particularly. It was, but uh, like, so then you freeze that for another eight years and I get hired by a professional department and I decide that let's not make that mistake again.Benjamin Martin:          Let's take some time to develop. But I'm the type a go getter guy. Thank you. You know, and I had some early experiences in my department where I was just working for some terrible, terrible leaders, uh, not human beings, great people, good hearts, just not same boat, same boat. They were never prepared to lead people. And if you think that's not important, then you're probably are way early on in your leadership journey or you're way late. Uh, which is I hope where we can get you in this conversation with kitchen, looking at what you could be doing right now. So, uh, I made it eight years and I worked for good leaders and I worked for bad and then I got promoted and I don't know why. I don't know whether it was because I considered myself a well-read and into the job. So I knew admin stuff.Benjamin Martin:          But I also knew ops and I love pulling hose as much as I do coaching and just building people up. So I really thought that with my energy and with what I knew and my passion is training that it would just fall in and it was just click and it did for about a year. And what I found was, uh, we had a, a senior firefighter that I worked with. He got promoted six months after I got there and then they sent us another senior firefighter and then he got promoted three months later and then it was a spoon, like what's the secret sauce over here at this station? So they sent someone that, uh, affectionately called George now and that's not his real name and his name changes as I traveled throughout the country. But George is the one I usually settle on. And George was a firefighter that was senior to me and George was in a bad spot.Benjamin Martin:          He was going through some stuff that involved a domestic realignment and he was having some issues with accountability for his actions. There were some kids in the mix and young Lieutenant Martin at the time too, had a one-year-old and a pretty steady rock solid marriage. Tried to be empathetic to this gentleman. And that worked for maybe a few months and then it didn't. And when I say it didn't, it was oil and water, it wasn't anything close to mixing. And I realized, and then over the next four months when I finally got to a point where I watched him break down and just cry, that I was probably the most ineffective leader I had ever seen. And I always used to joke about all the people I complained about, but I wouldn't want to work for me back then. Looking back, it was, it was bad. And so, uh, I obviously got in the rumor mill, I got a lot of resistance from folks, even folks that I trusted, you know, I would go with them with things.Benjamin Martin:          And you know, this situation with George wasn't one side and it was very complicated. You know, leadership is, you know, just not black and white at all. And I was trying, I always had it. I always had his best intentions at heart, but I really struggled and communicating with him, I just couldn't seem to get on the same page as him because I had the expectations of a leader of a player and he was looking for the minimum and maybe even below that a little bit. And uh, I forget who said it. This isn't novel, but I love it and I try to let it, you'll know a good leader because they'll understand what it takes to lead someone from where they are instead of where you want them to be and the ability to go from where you are currently to where they are and spend time with them and build them up and encourage them and forgive them when they screw off and be humble about your success and acknowledge that you will have failure coming and walk with them.Benjamin Martin:          That journey, like that's a true for me, leader, follower, dynamic. And I don't see a lot of that and I didn't, I didn't deliver that to George. I just didn't. Um, and more so, you know, we're going to talk about today. Uh, it got to a point where George, where he was getting affirmation and confirmation that he was doing the right thing by fighting me from people, even other leaders, even people in my chain of command. And by the time all the facts come out and you've got, you know, basically dereliction of duty and subordination and not checking truck shop, not wearing his uniform, downloading copyrighted, uh, pornography on the station, wifi, just like ludicrous thing. Uh, and he stayed resolute to the whole thing of like, you can't touch me. You can't touch me. You can't touch me. And then when I finally was able to get him on paper, he still never technically got a writeup because of the events that happened where he broke down and I was like, Oh crap.Benjamin Martin:          Like we know this guy doesn't need to be fired. He doesn't even need it to lose money. He just needs to be loved a little bit. Like, let's get them in a safe place. Let's figure out who the people are that can help him. And I wasn't, I wasn't that guy. And we realized that. And I actually left that team, that place that I wanted to be because it wasn't fair to move him and let him catch the rumor mill, you know, a why of you are only gonna move after six months. And I took that one across the chin and I watched people that knew me and knew my heart just turn a blind eye and a cold shoulder to me. I watched people as I reached out, tell me one thing to my face and then turned around and stabbed me in the back and it was lonely and it's led to depression and weight gain. And now fast forward a year and I'm in counseling myself and my own marriage and I'm like say what an arrogant piece of crap.Benjamin Martin:          Like, like I had it together, which I obviously didn't. And it was at some point during that year where I was dealing with the rumor mail. Um, and I was working, trying to redeem myself and I was trying to get where home was the priority instead of work. Cause I was way in over my head at work and committed to too many things and I was flowing a handline teaching recruits, uh, about nozzle reaction and I set it down and turn it off and turn it off and then set it down and the said, so basically the only time you experienced this reaction is when it's flowing and yeah. And he's like, okay, so just don't flow it like joking. And I'm like, well yeah, I guess, but that doesn't make for a terribly effective fire attack. And I was like, you know, that's the same damn thing for leadership really. When you think about it. Like anytime I've set something in motion, it's reasonable to predict that there's going to be some kind of counter reaction. Unfortunately the fire service as a whole on its culture has gotten to this. Like there's only so much value that I can have. And if this guy has a little bit of that, then I can't have that. And so they try to take it like character assassination and gossip and rumormongering and just nasty things.Jeff Banman:                 And I had to hide somebody. Yeah, I had somebody to go a couple months ago, you know, and I can't remember if the fire service or law enforcement, it's across the board, military fire service across the board, any of ours and out of services we are great at one thing and that is eating our own and we want to just devour our own people and it's absurd and you know, it sucks that it's still going. I feel like it's getting better, but man, it's still like so prevalent. It just, it's tough. Yeah.Benjamin Martin:          Yeah. And just a sidebar here before I've finished that thought, if I can even remember, it was like what you and I are talking about, if not hugs and kisses, we treat each other with kid gloves all the time and we don't, you know, get raw and get real with people and tell them where they need to improve and even demonstrate that by letting people make fun of us. That's not at all what I'm proposing, but there's a difference in my mind between busting somebody's chops and taking them in the balls. I should talk about. It's like dad versus a haymaker. When you jabbed somebody that's friendly, that kid, you know, that's, that's playground stuff. But when you try to land a haymaker on somebody, especially when they don't even know they're boxing with you, that's bullshit. Right? And then a lot of times leaders get in positions where they feel threatened, they feel challenged, and so they throw haymakers.Benjamin Martin:          Uh, and then people on the other side of that respond by throwing more haymakers. And if there's one thing about the fire service, we love to run and tell our peers what's happened to try to build support and get our version of events out there first. And if you're in a formal leadership position, you're really hamstrung in that race because you can't, it's their privacy. So you sit there and you take it and you hear things about yourself and you're like, that's a, that's not true. See, that's certainly not true about who I am. See that never happened. And it's like cow, like day. How do you, how do you even start to get to the root of these things? And you can't. And so in that moment flown that hand on, I made a decision, I was like, listen, you know I'm gonna, I'm going to do everything I can to get better as a leader using George as kind of a near miss.Benjamin Martin:          And then it's in my heart to travel and speak to anybody that'll hear me about this message, hoping that they never ever make the same mistake. And there were other things happening concurrent, which we could talk about where I took a disc assessment, which is basically like a behavior tool, you know about personality traits and dominance and influence themselves and the woman, God, I remember this woman, Jeff from HR looking at me and I knew her. We had a relationship. She had been my coach for about six months and she's looking at this thing and I'm like, just say it. And she's like, ah. And I'm like, Nancy, aK can't like whatever it is. Say it. I need to hear it. And she's like, you ever been accused of being arrogant? And I'm like, yes, all the time. They're clearly wrong. Move on now.Benjamin Martin:          I'm just kidding. No. Tell me about that. Like, tell me about this, this arrogance phase. And so we went through and, and I thought about it and it basically was, you know, overconfident, arrogance lacks empathy and it's like, wow, I didn't think I was coming across that way. I'm a fun guy. Like I was a bartender for years. I played rugby. Like I love socials. Like I'll, I have friends, I have relationships. Like why am I so ineffective at work and this, and about the same time that that disassembled assessment was happening, that I got that feedback. I went up to Lieutenant and I didn't get it. And, uh, I was, uh, I guess I had enough of a relationship with one of the guys on the interview panel that after they made the promotions and then three months later they made more and I got in that round, he was able to talk to me and he goes, you ever has anybody ever tells you that you're arrogant and, or, or her confident?Benjamin Martin:          I'm like, Sue, are you kidding me? And he basically, I almost felt like Nancy had emailed him the notes from the district assessment because he was going for batim and so I called Nancy up and I'm like, tell me more. And that's when my journey down, this emotional intelligence piece started, which was like, and I'll fight this to the death. Great leaders are not just made, but they die and they're reborn and they, they start over from scratch and then they learn and they, and they get better that way. It's just, there's no pinnacle success where you stay there and you certainly don't arrive knowing everything. And to think that is just ludicrous. Which takes me back to the volunteer thing. Why didn't anybody ever like, Hey, what do you like? What do you think about leadership? What do you think a good leader is? What do you think a bad leader is? What would make somebody feel good about you? What would make somebody not trust you? And just to even have that conversation would have been a good platform of, well maybe I don't have all the answers, which is a leadership. You're clearly not going to have all those answers. I'm getting to a place where you can be humble about it.Jeff Banman:                 You're spot on man. I mean, I think that that even, you know, my first massive touch, you know, with like Swift kick in the balls, uh, you are completely failing as a leader, you know, came. And then on the flip side of it, the first book I read is Daniel Goleman's 6,000 leadership. Uh, you know, what she takes and brilliantly lays out, you know, a deep seated understanding of emotional intelligence as it relates to, you know, very distinct styles of leadership that have to be applied in the right time with the right individual, right in the right context. Like there's so many components to it. And, you know, I, you know, I, I tell this story a bunch and because I'm listening to it and he's talking about like the commanding style of leadership and you know, I had just grown up in the fire service, gone in the military, came back from the fire service fire service culture changed, was not doing great with the shifts in the culture if you will say that, you know, late nineties, uh, changes, they're different.Jeff Banman:                 Uh, we're touchy feely for when I grew up and the expectations that I had, you know, for people. And, and it literally, you know, he was talking about, you know, all the great things about being in that commanding solid leadership. And I'm like, yes, yes, yes, we're going to turn around, we're going to try back from my house. We're going gonna make sure everybody listens to this. And they started talking about like all the consequences and all the negativity and all the crap that comes on. You exhaust your people and exhaust. And I was like, shit, he is totally right. And I totally screwed their thought. Yeah, man. I mean it's, I think you're right when you say leaders aren't, aren't even, you know, they're definitely not born. They don't even necessarily grow into it. They may grow into it a little bit and then they fail and fall on their face and then they pick themselves up and they keep going. So it is a moving target, you know, perpetually you will never arrive at a destination where you can look around and be like, okay, I got it. Because everything around you is changing constantly.Benjamin Martin:          Yeah. I can tell you that I think the best leaders, when I look back, and this was what I'm trying to model myself, is when you work for someone who's on their leadership journey and is introspective of that journey and willing to share what they're feeling and thinking about it, right? So that's not even confident, but they're just that secure that they don't have all the answers and they're willing to let people look in, you know, to see what's on the other side of them, including all the, I don't know, I don't know what to do in this situation. Let's try to figure it out together. That's where people buy in. But presenting yourself as arrived and pretending just because your vehicles cross now that you have everything that you need to be successful and everything they need to be successful, it, it just doesn't happen that way.Benjamin Martin:          Um, and saying like, you know, I know there's people listening that are like, Oh, this is crap and this is what I would tell people. Have you ever had a moment where you're having an argument with someone and you realize they're right and you're still not relieved that you know the correct answer, right? The feeling isn't enlightenment. It's resentment that this individual has the correct answer and whether they're your boss or your wife or your husband or, or whatever, it's just so counterintuitive. Like if we're trying to get the right things so we can move forward and, and be successful and experienced success as a group, then I should be happy that this guy or girl has the answer. And all I can think about is discounts. If we can know it all or this guy's an asshole. Of course he has the right answer. And that's the kind of unpredictability that, that people, because even you may never even know as a leader that they're thinking that like I was before the disc assessment had no idea. So yeah, I mean just this introspection and self awareness and social awareness is way, way, way more important than I think. Anything else out there that's been written about leadership? Well that's just my opinion.Jeff Banman:                 Yeah man. No I cause listen, it's a, you know, it's uh, there are so many pieces to this when you begin to, you know, break things down in one, you know, we have this idea of ourself and you know, last week I was telling you in the last week you had bill McKernan on and we really kind of talked about identity and just this very challenging conversation to be a part of. It was phenomenal and challenging all at the same time. But you know, we have perception of self and then there is the perception of who we are from the outside and rarely do those ever really match up. Right. I mean, I internally, I see myself who is, you know, who I am, where my intention lies, you know, I mean even with my wife I will like, like I will screw up. I didn't mean to you, I didn't intend to, but I still did.Jeff Banman:                 You know what I mean? And that's then that triggers for me this shame and guilt and Oh, I'm such a fuck up arm, such a screw up or whatever it might be. Right. And so this internal battle triggers and it's kind of designed around what body didn't intend to hurt you or say that or be mean. You know, that wasn't like at my core, but she can't see that. And it's the same thing in the firehouse. Like we can't see inside each other as to how we feel or what's going on. And yeah, you're right. It's not about giving you a hug. I'm happy to kick you in the ass and move you down the road. But at the same time, I think the biggest thing I've learned in youth, you feed back to this, I try to now, I kind of look at everybody like a five, six or seven year old.Speaker 3:                    AndJeff Banman:                 when they're kind of acting out, when there's some behavior out of the norm, it's like, okay, what's going on here? Because you're a little kid is showing up and you know, you, you feel unsafe, you feel unheard. You know what I mean? There's something causing this, this reaction, you know, cause I was, the more I've gone even deeper and deeper and deeper into some other areas, man, I, I really see that we're all kind of, you know, six year olds running around in grown up bodies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we are, because we don't feel great about ourselves. We don't feel safe in the environment. We don't feel safe to communicate things or say things, you know? Now we're scared we're going to be judged. I mean, there's all kinds of behavioral patterns that come out when sometimes all we need are like, you know, a little Jeff just needs a hug. You know what I mean? Like a little George pulled George just needed somebody to freaking, you know, needed it, needed to crawl up on dad's lap somewhere and feel safe for a minute. Cause he's unsafe at home. He's unsafe in the firehouse, he's unsafe in his own career. He's unsafe and his own decisions, like he's just completely unsafe everywhere.Benjamin Martin:          Yeah. And a lot of times people, no go, sorry, go ahead Jeff.Jeff Banman:                 No, I was going to say, and, and, and you know, and he's looking around and like nobody's providing it. You know what I mean? So goBenjamin Martin:          right. Yeah. So a lot of leaders, and I don't know whether this was because we grew up under Maslow's needs or, or what it is, but we focus a lot on physical safety, right? So they're turning men and women to the firehouse from the fire scene and then getting them home. Uh, and that's how we're wired biologically. What is rumbling in the Bush? Is they're going to eat me or do I need to run away from it? Can I punch it in the face and survive? But that's not what threatens people. On a day to day basis at all. Um, if you've read anything, uh, David rock, uh, I think you and I have agreed eight days of the neuroscientist and he talks about that five times a second. The brain is scanning for threats in, uh, social domains, which are status, any press, a status, any threat to certainty, autonomy, relatedness or fairness.Benjamin Martin:          And it's a scarf model for short, but most of the time, our subconscious, and if it's extreme, our conscious, but at least our subconscious is hijacked scanning for these things. When you're asking someone to show up completely to work and tune out the fact that they're going through a divorce or that their son has an appointment with the pediatric oncologist on Monday and then say, I still need 100% of you. It's like, no, ma, you got 50%, you can have 50% of my a game today. And you're like, Oh, well, no, I told you 100% no, that's less. And so that's when you get into this idea of having empathy and you know, recognizing how someone could feel in that moment of uncertainty about their son's life or I'm certainly about their marriage and then no matter what they're doing, they're completely helpless, at least in the cancer scenario. So there's no autonomy. Nothing they do makes it any better. It's completely reactive and that kind of stuff. It's just, it's like a backpack of rocks that people are walking around with. And we joke about how heavy arts here is. People are walking around with life circumstances that are way heavier on themJeff Banman:                 way. Yeah.Benjamin Martin:          Yeah. I love this stuff. Keep, keep going. Sorry.Jeff Banman:                 Nah dude. Keep going. Keep rocking and rolling. Now this is part of the show man. We just get into conversation and we just go interrupt each other, cut each other off. Jump in. This is, this is the way this show works, so just go, don't worry about it.Benjamin Martin:          You know, I wish, I wish what I talked about with sexier so I could have pack rooms and it's just not, it's never going to be fire attack. But I've tried to train people to anticipate people's reactions the way we would fire behavior, right? And just pulling it off and giving them chances to van and safe places and not allowing themselves to get in where they shouldn't be. And really approaching it from that fire service angle. Some sets, what we know, but what we're talking about here, like there's always a go or no go with a person or go and no go yet. And whether you have that conversation with them, whether you give them this thing that could potentially crush them, this feedback, uh, whether it's a friend who's struggling with alcoholism or whether it's a, you know, buddy who's got a wife, who's cheating on him.Benjamin Martin:          Like at what point do you have this conversation and how do you have this conversation? And there's so much thought that needs to go into that rather than just having a knee jerk reaction. And that's why a lot of times you get leaders when they feel challenged because I said so. It comes out, which is the utmost dumbest thing that you could ever say. And I know we're modeled after after the military, and that's very chain of command for you, but if you're not looking for feedback, you're going to lose your people at some point or another because of what's happening in their lives. And that's how I lost George as I was completely confident in the direction I was going, and I was not willing to consider how he was doing in that moment. And I pressed on and I dragged him with me through the mud because he couldn't walk because he had no strength to, and I deserve every bit of of the Slack that I get from that time with him because I did everything right by the organization or policy, and I did everything wrong by as just a human being.Benjamin Martin:          And I really wish I could have that back. I really do.Jeff Banman:                 Well, you know, I, and I would challenge you to say it's good that you had it. Yes, I understand what you're saying. Yes, it would be great to have it back, but yes, you wouldn't be, you wouldn't have the introspection today having not had it. Like you know, you wouldn't, you wouldn't have that anchor to really understand. I mean, this is, this is where I boil down today and, and you know, most of the listening audience gets it. I mean this is, this is the deal. You, you know, either listen to the podcast or you don't, right. You either want to grow and develop yourself in your career and your home life in every aspect of your life or you don't. Right. And we've got plenty of cross fire service, military law enforcement community that are just very rigid in their beliefs, in their processes and where they sit and you know, as it should be.Jeff Banman:                 And you know, they'll figure it out one day or they won't. That's kind of where it comes down to. But what I believe fundamentally, like all of the labels we put on things, you know, leadership is not 10 things to do, right. It's not an act of doing to me is leadership is how you show up, right? It is a state of how you are being, not what you're doing in the context of leadership. And, and I've really over my time now across the fire service, a military agency doing business just across the board. Here's what I continually come back to. And this is really where I've sat. So this is how we're going to pack your next room. Uh, it is the ultimate human question and it was running all day all the time. And it is, am I safe? That is just the ultimate question.Jeff Banman:                 And like you said, you know, we're so well developed in physical safety and creating physical safety for ourselves as AR, as across the service for our community, for our country, for our people around us, like work 20, 24, seven. It's our job, keep everybody safe and we've become great at that. Where we fail. That's a physical aspect where we can fail mostly miserably is creating an emotional level of safety for everyone around us at firehouse, at home, right? With the family, with the friends like this, this place where I can say, listen, I'm not doing great. Listen, I need some help. Listen, I'm struggling at home. Or Hey, I've gone back to drinking, or Hey, I'm thinking about killing myself. Like I'm really struggling here and we don't do that. That to me is now becoming a 21st century leader across the services is being the guy or the person or the woman, whoever it is, being the person that just generates a level of emotional safety around them, that people are willing to come speak and communicate. That to me is the secret sauce today.Benjamin Martin:          Yeah, and that's your, I mean, when you're talking about trust, that's all that is. It's just emotional security that, you know what? If I tell you something for if I follow you, it won't. By late any of the things we talked about, it won't violate my sense of status. It won't violate certainty about the work. It won't violate my autonomy, you know? And that's not to say that I get to do whatever it is I want to do. It just means I don't feel like you're not battling my opinion that you've considered me or you've heard me and yet I understand you've chosen to go a different way, but at least you authentically heard me. And if you've ever worked on a committee and submitted something and then the fire chief did whatever they wanted to do, that's a complete waste of time. And there's nothing like that hurts.Benjamin Martin:          That gut punch hurts as much as tripping and falling and skinning your knee. You know, it's the same pathways in the body, social pain and physical pain. But that's when you look at leadership leadership, for me, it's like a technology, right? It's no different than the gear that we have, right? But the problem is that we're carrying around 2020 gear where we can go deeper and further and survive hotter temperatures than we ever have with advancements in technology, like thermal imaging, with all this crazy training about re COVs and whether in the Pfizer's campus, there's another conversation, but you've got all this investment in that. But the leadership theory is still stuck in like late nineties right? We, you know, we're, we're still on this servant leadership mindset. And that's being generous. That's seen like I think the best departments are in this are in the servant leadership, but the majority of the fire service, we're still a little bit stuck back in theory ex, uh, leadership where like people are inherently lazy and I'm supposed to tell them what to do and the gap that's gonna come that, that I feel like, you know, I follow the statistics for people that are killing themselves in the fire service and law enforcement.Benjamin Martin:          And I'm not an expert on those. I just know that it's going one way and I think it's going off as fast as it is one, because we've got reporting thanks to people like Jeff Hill on firefighter behavioral health and you've got people that are advancing this peer support narrative. So we're talking about it more, which obviously is gonna make you find more instances of this. But I also think at the same time, that is in response of living in a world in which you're always expected to be on with technology and social media. And you've got so much pressure socially to have a lifestyle and for your wife and your kids that's competitive with what you're seeing on Instagram. And then we text each other instead of call, we email instead of visiting them in person and our physical relationships. Your period like I mean Thanksgiving is a perfect example.Benjamin Martin:          We just celebrated that, right? And I'm guilty of this too. I texted five of my closest friends instead of calling them because I was able to do that in five minutes instead of what would have taken me five hours. But Lord, help me if I find out six months from now that one of those phone calls, I would've found out my buddy's wife was leaving him and I could have talked with him about that. And like that's the piece we're missing. And because leadership's is technology and technology always improves in response to need. It's going to be a little bit, it's going to be you and I on the fringe talking about emotional intelligence and being authentic and humble and, and demonstrating humility. And there's going to be a core group of rock stars, air quotes, rock stars, like do whatever I say do it how I do it. You know, fuck you. If you don't like what I say. It's like, no man, that's, that's, that's crap. That's absolute crap and that's the best way to run somebody into the ground and ruin an organization. And when those jackasses promote high enough where they get the right audience that's promoted high enough, then that's what tanks organizations. And you do not have to look far to find legacy fire departments with toxic cultures because of that.Jeff Banman:                 Yeah, I was the Jack. I was one of their jackasses, you know 20 [inaudible].Benjamin Martin:          Yeah, I was. I totally was.Speaker 4:                    All right, we're going to take a quick break to let you know that this episode is brought to you in part by brute force training. When you're ready to be in the physical condition necessary to meet the rigors demands and expectations of your profession and check out the team over@bruteforcetraining.com and pick up their gear. I promise you, it will put you in the condition you need to be in for this moment. And the next you can use the discount code op mindset that's open mindset in the team will take a little bit off the top for ya. Now always remember, train accordingly. Now let's get back to the show.Benjamin Martin:          I totally was too. Um, but you're at least smart enough that to learn and value the mistakes you've made and leverage those so that others don't have to make that. Whereas most people are just either embarrassed or they're too proud to look back and it, you know, like in my instance, it would be all the fault lies with George. That's not true. George has some responsibility in that I as a leader, should automatically as a default be at 51% automatically and could go higher. But to think that George has all of that flames now, now there's, there's many, many, many, many things I now know that I could have done better, which is why we go around talking about these things.Jeff Banman:                 Well, I man, I think, I think this is so I'm going to like banter with me on this one. I'm just going to idea coming to mind as we're talking. You know, it's interesting, right? Because we live in a world and I'm gonna, you know, fire service, law enforcement, military, and we have a very specific job to do. And in doing that job, we need to operate at an entire different level. Okay? And we do need to do things successfully. Like they know, compartmentalize the emotional content and separate ourselves from what's going on at home or you know, what's going on in the firehouse or you know, what's happening there. We have to, we have to understand how we kind of turn those channels down or close, you know, boxers, channels up for the time that we need to be fully present and in action, right?Jeff Banman:                 To respond an emergency, to fight a fire, to make an arrest, to do X, Y, andZ to go to war, to do whatever. Right? And all of our existence is centered around those moments. And the reality is, we all know this. If we're honest, those moments are so brief in, Oh, what is it? I don't even know what the statistics is. Like how many, how many did you spend a 25 year career in the fire service? How many years did you spend actually on a heightened emergency scene? You know what I mean? Like they're required maybe to, you know, maybe five if you're in a bust ass department, right? I mean it's not that much comparatively, but all of our world is centered around those few moments in time. Like all the training, the culture of the conversation, you know, fuck that, settle down, shut up, do your job kind of stuff.Jeff Banman:                 All settled for that one moment. And then we've left the 90% of the rest of our time to try to assimilate into those moments. Cause I mean I was awful dude. I in the firehouse, I'm mean on the fire ground. Great. No problem. And if firehouse total shit show what an asshole, you know, I mean I was a deck amongst Dick's. Like I ran the firehouse, like we were on fire 24 seven and exhausted the crap out of people. Right? And so yeah, but that's what you quote unquote do. That's how you do it. And so I think what's happening here is we're starting to chip away to be like, okay, listen, I need to, I'm going to fully, and this is where, this is why I call it an operational mindset, because it is the ability to execute the mission with absolute perfection and confidence and capability and everything you need to have in that moment in time.Jeff Banman:                 And then transition mentally, emotionally, physically from that environment to the next. And the next may be back in the firehouse. The next may be, you know, I got to give my buddy a hug or whatever it is. And I've got to have that bandwidth and that capacity to maneuver. And so guy, you know, people that are out there that are, that, that don't think this is necessary, are living in a fraction of their career, not the entirety of it or a fraction of their marriage and not the entirety of it. That's just me calling myself out along with, well, pretty much everybody else listening.Benjamin Martin:          Yeah, no, I totally, so there's a couple of things if we can play this out that I'd like to talk about. So, um, I hear a compartmentalize talk about a lot and that's definitely something that I'm not sure if we can do. So I'm sitting here, I'm looking at the computer, which is running the program that you and I are talking on and I've got all the books that I've read in the background. I've got things on the wall, family pictures on the desk. Uh, but in the moment it's what is getting my attention, right? The computer, making sure that this conversation is happening and if there's anything that I want to reference having it up on here. But if you ask me the specifics about the book covers to my left or you know, what the brand of TV was in front of me or what dress my wife was wearing in the photo.Benjamin Martin:          Like that's not important necessarily in this moment. So I'm not going to be able to tell you and it doesn't have my full attention. And that's where I think we've got to focus. Here is where you want to call. You know, you may have something going on at home, what the call is, what gets your attention. It gets 100% of your attention. Even though we know science has shown us it's subconsciously we're being distracted, but all of our conscious minds has gotta be able to focus on this. I've heard guys tell me that they don't feel like if they talk with their family during the day, very good a firefighter because all of a sudden they're distracted by the thought of their family.Jeff Banman:                 Would that be the worst thing you were saying you can do? The worst thing you can do on deployment is call home.Benjamin Martin:          Yeah, and so it's like, all right, well if that's true and your family distracts you, then don't let me see you on social media. Right? If your family is going to distract you from the mission, don't let me see you do anything in your 24 hour period that would distract you from the mission. And that includes playing on your phone, playing a video game at the station, watching TV, having a conversation that isn't about the mission, which is not life, it's, it's not reality. So what we're really admitting is that we can tune into out of the mission. It's just a lot about our ability to maintain focus and attention. And part of our problem is that we were manta sized. We way over romanticized leadership because of what we see in culture and movies. Like we're like you talked about, you're like, you're waiting for this one moment where you're like Braveheart and you're Mel Gibson and you're giving this speech and you're like, John, like I got juice.Benjamin Martin:          And the reality is you may you, you may get that, but probably more so where the goosebumps are going to come from is when you're able to have that one on one conversation in the parking lot of the food line. You went to get groceries where a guy breaks down on you and you have a safe place for him to land or whatever else it is that was occupying his attention. Like that's reaching a person. The other thing is just talking to them. Maybe they get the same feeling you get, but it's just like you and me. And they're like, we push them harder. We push them fast and like you're like, yeah. And they're like, no, no. [inaudible] but you're so focused, you know, just like on the computer, not paying attention to the color of the books. You have no idea that people have completely checked out around you and they're not, they're not buying into it at all.Benjamin Martin:          So like, yeah, there's gotta be a healthy way to process what you're saying cause that's obviously important. Um, and we want to get away from where we're compartmentalizing too much. But at the same time it's like, all right, well, I want to do everything I can to be, to get home to my kids. And I tell people that training is the answer to that, right? When I don't have to think about how to do fundamental skills, that leaves up more brain power to think creatively and figure out solutions to problems that will arise. You can't plan for everything. So that's the goal. Train the shit out of people so that they can focus on the right thing when they call comes in and then when they get back to the firehouse they can make the switch back to maybe they want to tuck their daughter in over family time or a FaceTime or call the wife and see how her day was or something.Benjamin Martin:          But I really failed like where I would go 24 hours, not talking to them and life just kept going on here. But the first steps I missed the first steps, the first words, Christmases, birthdays like. So it's like, all right, well I can make a decision to consciously not be a part of any of that if I'm at the firehouse or I can try to find a period where I can blend where I'm able to focus and not get distracted by them. And I think, Jeff, probably what I'm trying to say here is if you, if you can do this correctly, then your family life will be healthy and you will be in a healthier place and you'll be more emotionally stable and your leadership or even your followership will be more efficient and more effective. And then because it's all in balance, which really you probably won't ever happen because it's more imbalanced, you're not going to have all of the distractions you would with a divorce or with counseling or with a sick kid. And with any of those things. Um, it's just like span of control.Jeff Banman:                 Well, we, it is like span of control and we forget that we live, especially in these environments. Like most, most normal people, those people out there, right? They get up in the morning, they go to work, they sit at their desks, they do whatever they come home. And I'm not saying they're not without challenge and now without issue, but heightened in our worlds is this understanding that we need to be transitional beings like transitional, like, and, and transitions are we, you know, we've, we book end our day, we get in the car, we go to work, we getting in the car, we go home, right? We've, we book in our shift or whatever it is, we book ended. But in the context of every day, we are constantly transitioning moment by moment, by moment I'm at the firehouse. I want a new mass call. I'm helping him old lady get back in her bed.Jeff Banman:                 I'm, you know, pulling a kid out of a burning building. I'm cutting somebody out of a car who may or may not make it. I'm, you know, chasing somebody down the street. And then I'm counseling the domestic dispute and I'm, you know, helping the rape victim. Like, dude, that's, and by the way, that's Justin today, right? And, and yeah, exactly. And so, you know, what? We lose to me, what I think we lose sight of, and this is where things start to mound for us. We don't execute transitions well that's, you know, when we talk about emotional stability in the six pillars and, and mental acuity and emotional stability is the ability to transition rapidly. Right? To be able to say, okay cool. Done was a call. I what do I need to transition? Well I need to go for a walk around the block or I need to, you know, grab Ben and take him outside and scream cause I'm pissed off at whatever and then I can go home.Jeff Banman:                 Right. And so what I'm able to do, and when I talk about compartmentalization, it is more a transitional segmentation. Things not like isolation, not shutting people down or locking things out. Yeah. Yeah. Cause if I'm going to call home, if I'm overseas and I'm calling home, I don't want to dumb what I just did into my family. So I set myself up, I feel like it, what I need for the next moment and I put myself in DOE in the condition I need to be in for that moment. Not, you know, cause my family doesn't need firemen or you know, cop or military per, do I need any of that? They just need lesbian dad. Right? So what, what condition do I need and what do I need right now? Like just simply asking yourself that question, what do I need right now to call home to be the best dad, her husband or whatever, or mother or wife or whatever it may be. What do I need and what do I need to help me be that? Uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, dude, I think,Benjamin Martin:          I think the difference, cause I've never served in the military, so I don't, my father was in the air force, so I have no authority to speak on this at all. So I'll, I'll very softly lay this up there. And then anybody's willing to slap it away. They can and they won't hurt my feelings. But when you're looking at the sacrifice of the men and women make that serve our country, where they go away for six months to a year to a year and a half. Like I could understand Jeff calling home, finding out his wife's cheating on him and then having another year on his stent and thinking about how distracted he would be with that. So we borrow from that with the fire service problem is I'm only gone for 24 hours or 48 hours or worst case scenario, I get forced hot over times and it's 72 hours but then I'm right back in their life.Benjamin Martin:          And so I think when you look at military service members coming home, and Jeff, you can speak to this like we're going to have the most problem. And I think it's transitioning back into the people's lives because it never stops happening while they were gone. And that's what it was from my mother, you know, with my father. And you know, I was too young to remember any of that. So thankfully that wasn't an issue. But I think, I think for the fire service, like the idea of compartmentalizing. And here's a story, if we have a moment, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you when I was a new, when I was a new Lieutenant, right, I had all the status pressure, like really wanting to come across as a, you know, a subject matter expert on everything. I'm also a paramedic, don't judge me for that. So I've got two hats to wear, you know, I've gotta be good at on the fireside, but also good on the paramedics and sob.Benjamin Martin:          And I'd been there maybe three months, still building relationships with everybody. Still hadn't caught a fire so nobody knows if I'm any good or bad anything. And we catch a pediatric shooting and I can remember driving and I didn't know the district that well. So I've got all this pressure about like I hope I'm going the right way. And the whole time I'm like, you know, looking at a four year old shot by his older brother or younger brother and it's like, ah crap, crap, crap, crap, crap. Like, just this gut wrenching feeling of like, shit, shit, shit, shit. Like, you know the big calls that can create that out. And I get there and I'm running up to the house and a police officer comes out and he's holding the kid in a, in a blanket and he goes, it's just a graze. And it's like, Ooh, right.Benjamin Martin:          Subject matter expert. He's telling me it's just the grace. Thank God DEFCON level five back down the level one, like we're good, can't cancel the air strike. We're good. So I started getting into patient assessment of it. The mom is a mess, right? She had had people breaking in to the house or a neighborhood houses. So she got a firearm out, tuck it under a sofa question, I think. And the youngest son found it who was like two or three and accidentally fired upon his, um, brother, who I think was four or five at the time. So, um, I mean you can imagine just like in the back of her mind, subconsciously, am I going to lose these kids? But at the forefront of her mind, is my child going to live? Right? So when the police officer says it's just a graze, everybody can collectively breathe a sigh.Benjamin Martin:          And I go in there and I recognize, I look over the kid, I peel the blanket back. If he's in a diaper and there's nothing, you know, there's nothing wrong that I can see. I look and it looks like a grave, like an almost like an abrasion. I'm like, are you sure he was even shot. Maybe this is a bug burn, whatever. And it's, it is, um, it's going in is like five, right? Or I guess what looks like wound to his inner thigh. So after like I took a, Paul says, profusions good kid, not even crying like, alright, is a healthy kid, let's go and ride on the hospital just to be on the safe side. Get you outta here. So I put mom on the back. I'm not even going lights and sirens to the hospital. And I look at her and she's just a wreck.Benjamin Martin:          And I think to myself, if this was my child and is my oldest, so ALA was like one at a time. If this was a loss, nothing could stop me from holding this child. And I'm like, I'm not going to be in the way of that man. Would you like to hold your stone? Yes, I would. Right. So I give her the sun, she sits on the stretcher with the son, we go to the uh, trauma hospital and we get over to pediatrics and I'm talking to the attending and then the freaking department head walks in and I'm telling her about what's going on. It's just a graze. And then I hear, well, what's this then? And like I hadn't even looked over there yet, but I could feel myself getting nauseous just knowing what was coming. And I look over, they had taken the diaper off and it's like, I know your listeners have already figured out the end of the story.Benjamin Martin:          They already knew this was coming, but I, I couldn't, I didn't, I left the type or on, I exposed everything else. Like it was a lower leg injury. There's no way that this child could shoot up this kid's leg and have an exit his button. But that's exactly what he did. And then all sudden details start coming back where the mom was like, be sure is filling up his diaper. He's seeing a lot. And I'm like, well shit, that was blood. Like it wasn't a lot of blood. It was just oozing blood. Thank God. But what if it had been so they did an X Ray and the kid who was an in and out, um, and I told, I told the department head, I was like, listen, I, I fucked up so bad here. I'm going to call the OMB. I'm going to own this.Benjamin Martin:          I'm going to use this as a lesson. You do whatever it is you need to do carte blanche and you're not going to get any resistance from me. No embracing the resistance on this one. Like, just do what you need to do. And she's like, well, I can see it in your face. You feel terrible and I trust that you'll follow up on this and I will, I will talk with your own team to make sure you have, and she's like, you'd go do what you need to do and we'll see where it falls out. So I came back to the station and I talked to the guys and they're like, Oh, we should have prompted you. And I'm like, well listen, like if I'm going to be successful here as a leader, I don't ever want you guys to feel afraid that you can't challenge Lieutenant.Benjamin Martin:          Like there's going to be critical moments. And I don't even think that this was a critical life threatening moment because it wasn't a flashover. It was a life threatening, but it had time to play out. I want you to challenge me. Please don't ever let this happen again. But I'm owning this like I don't hold any of you guys accountable. This is 100% Lieutenant Martins. Fuck off. And I'll own this. But just so you're aware, don't let this happen to you guys. Let's work together to have each other's back and let's not be so caught up in our egos that we're afraid to say something because we don't want to hurt anybody's feelings or that we're going to be resistant to it because we've got to maintain the ego. And so I got home and I was telling my wife about it and you know, she's Sam there in tears and I started doing some research in a corner costs role ambiguity, which you know, basically is you wear a lot of hats.Benjamin Martin:          So it wasn't just that I was wearing a hat of a firefighter or hat of an officer or hat of her medic. I was wearing a hat as a father, as a husband, you know, as a brother, like all these different roles in my life. And in that moment when I should've had the paramedic hat on, I took it off on it, put the father hat on and I thought about her needs more and I failed her child and her in the process. And what happens is when we put our, we allow ourselves to get in situations where we haven't had training and we haven't had at least a discussion on it, we get into role conflict where doing one role conflicts with the outcome of another role. And a lot of times you see this in buddy to pause where it's like, well, I want to be the guy's buddy, but it gotta be his boss.Benjamin Martin:          And you're not either you're just marginal at that. You think you're maybe winning because the guy's not actively shit talking to you. Maybe he has your back, but just because he's not, you know, confrontational to your face, you're like, yes, I'm winning as a leader. But that's not the case. And that's exactly like what we're talking about with this. What's getting your attention? You can say you can compartmentalize things that and leave it at home, but clearly you can't. That's not a, and it's not a bad thing. That's part of being human. That's part of our humanity. Like empathy is a core construct of our humanity and the more we express that, the better. And that I would argue, Jeff, that is why we would go into that fire because we want to that kid with their parents to give them a birthday, to give them an anniversary, like to see them get married one day.Benjamin Martin:          Like we'll take significant risks that are counter to our best interest because of our empathy. Our empathy is not, it doesn't not handicap us, it does not distract us. It empowers us as long as we're valuing the right thing. And it's pretty obvious when somebody is demonstrating powers and not doing the right things. But that's what type of leader I want to work for. That that has the ability to come in and in one minute basis silly, bad-ass, but the next minute be completely humble over a mistake they made or sharing the mistake they made with me 10 years ago to establish level footing with me because I want to feel related to them because that's another fundamental construct of safety is relatedness. That's the next level stuff. And that's the stuff that's not being taught. I'm not reason why we're going to have this gap and this, but you know, and every gap you get people like me and you that are like, we're not, there's a need.Benjamin Martin:          There's a technology that's not out there. So I'm going to, we're going to speak to it and literally build this, I don't want to say from scratch because we were studying research that's been done some, you know, sometimes the thirties but in the fire service it's all new and novel and you all, you, anybody listening here knows if it's new and novel in the fire service, it's the first to get, you know, an arrow swung at it. So like that's the hits were taken because we believe so passionately in it and like I've seen it, I've seen it affect my marriage and make it better. I've seen it at work and make my relationships better with people. And the reputation I have now is, so it's like one 80 from what I had seven years ago and it's all been about humility and learning and shared experiences. That's the only recipe that I've had any kind of success with. It's not ever been one class I took, well one moment I had. It's just a consistent showing up for people. And that's really what I think a leader needs to do.Jeff Banman:                 Dude, I, I can't disagree with any of that. I mean, I think that's exactly, we are human and as humans we are emotional beings. You know what I mean? We feel, we sense, we connect, uh, aid is just part of our lives and we can't shove it down. We can't turn it off. It's not going to go away. I level when people are like, well I don't really have any empathy or I was born without empathy. I'm like, yeah, I know you aren't. Uh, you know, cause I've had those kind of, I've had people say that, you know what, I've had people say that about their partners or other people in the, in the, you know, in their work environment. Like they just, I, they don't have any empathy. They do, they don't know how to unlock it. And there's probably a huge wall of fear there around it.Jeff Banman:                 So, yeah, man. I mean I think it's a, I think it's indicative on, on us as one, it's indicative on the leader today to step into this role period. You know, if you are, if you are in any of the services, uh, any, you know, if you, to people I hang out with across the platforms, the special operations guys, intelligence guys, the fire service guys, law enforcement across the board. Anybody who's been in a career for any length of time and has a sense of themselves, understands the value of this conversation of constantly looking at themselves, constantly develop things, you know, willingness to understand their people around them, you know, and really, and take action around it. Right? It's not just, Oh, cool, there's was a great podcast or, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What now are you doing with it? What are you, what steps are you taking?Jeff Banman:                 You know, if you are a leader in the firehouse or you're, you know, a Sergeant in the law enforcement community or the Lieutenant or a captain or a chief, I don't know. You know what I mean? I've got chief officers that listen to this. It's like, how are you creating the environment for your people to really get all of this like through, through and through. And you know, that's not just, you know, let me go see Benjamin talk at firehouse expo. You know, it's like, how do I engage, how do I bring this conversation forward? I mean, I think that's, you know, you touched on the aspects of suicide in the rise around that stuff cause they ours. I mean, those are, that's why I created the operation mindset foundation because I'm a big believer, there's a big difference between prevention and intervention and 90% of what's done is intervention because the thought train has already started.Jeff Banman:                 And I know I speak openly about years, even prior to the services, this constant conversation of I shouldn't be here. You know, maybe I should just go now. Um, and my own challenges then, you know, enhanced by the stupid life I chose to live. Uh, you know, it's crazy what's out there and you know, we've gotta be more real about it. We've got to be more in tune with it. We've got to be available, the people around us, because that, you know, that person sitting with you at the dinner table in the firehouse, like you said, needs every ounce of the same person that will run in and snatch that kid out of that burning building like 100%. And if you can't be in, especially, you know, I don't care, I don't care what your rank is or whether you showed up yesterday or whether you've been here for 20 years and you're a grouch.Jeff Banman:                 That's the condition you have to live in now. Uh, because it's across the board, man, the game changed, like firing and getting shot at, it's a little bit more hay day. There's a lot more judgment from across the board. It's not just centered into law enforcement community, you know, or it's not just military stuff or whatever. I'll say it's across the board. Like you've gotta be ready for anything and everything and you're only gonna do that when the team is a whole, you know, is completely whole and able to perform in moment. So dude, I love it. We're going to have to schedule another time. And you know, have a whole nother conversation. Uh, anytime, anytime. I love talking toBenjamin Martin:          Jeff. I think you're doing great work and it's humbled to be a small part of it.Jeff Banman:                 Well that's it dude. And we're gonna we're going to work together a little bit more in 2020, uh, through the operation Whiteside foundation and really developing and preparing guys, you know, people to step into harm's way and delivering the conversation early. Cause I think this needs to start like day one. This is the conversation. Yeah. This, this needs to be, I'll say this if you think you are an influencer in any of the services, you know, I, I feel like I served a little bit of that in my time in a couple of places. Like I was somebody people trusted or they listened to or they came to and talk to. If you're in that role, this is the conversation that needs to be had like this, you know, and I, and I was lucky I had some old school, gritty, gritty, gritty guys growing up that actually had these kinds of conversations with me.Jeff Banman:                 You know, may not have been this formal, may not have been in these particular words. You know, cause now we're talking almost started years ago, but they had conversations like this with me and that's what I love about these programs cause all that's still embedded in, in a lot of this, this old school, you know, old school hard ass mentality is to me I think is actually a big falsehood. And maybe that's what you and I'll attack on the next time we get on. It's like this, this perception of what I should be versus you know, you talked to the Al Dutton retired battalion fire chief from DC fire department who we know went to deep, went to work for DC the year I was born. You know, telling me how this stuff is radically important to success. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we'll have to unpack that. All right man. So I'm going to make sure all the show notes are up. You and I are going to collaborate a little bit to recreate some of the conversation for everybody out there and get some key topics and some key learning points. So they've got them up there in the show notes. I'm going to make sure Benjamin's wonderful bio is up also in the show notes and a link to him at embrace the resistance but soon by checkout, embrace the resistance.com. Are you speaking anywhere? Anytime soon? You got anything coming up?Benjamin Martin:          So then uh, I got uh, I got a small gig in Indiana for a department and then I'll be at the big show in SEIC April. So hopefully it will, we'll see each other there.Jeff Banman:                 Yeah, absolutely. So if you're going to FDIC, make sure you check out and Benjamin and get into his class cause it's, it is 100% worth it. I had a chance to sit in at, he spoke right before we prep the audience for them. We prep

The Legend of Zelda: A Link To The Past. A game that has changed the world of gaming for many fans over the decades. Let's hear how it influenced the game world for the Press B crew! Episode Transcription: The below is a machine based transcription of this episode. Sorta like Skynet if it was 2 years old, and wanted a cookie. Take it with a grain of salt. Jake 0:00 Episode 11 links to past today on path.Jake 0:25 Welcome. Thank you for listening to presby to cancel I'm your host this week sick Jake. Today we're going to talk about my favorite Zelda game well, well maybe second favorite Zelda game. Anyway, I'm not here by myself. I'm joined by my fellow friends and co hosts starting with Polish polish. How are you today?Palsh 0:42 Dude, this is a start to sound like your last time you had this, like I was word for word or using the same intro.Jake 0:48 I like mad hockey. Honestly, to be honest with you, I kind of slacked off on the research. I just didn't last 30 minutes. So cross my fingersPalsh 0:59 do you want to keep In the episode I kind of do sureJake 1:03 whatever there is research, research,Palsh 1:05 research. Okay. Hi, I'm Paul swana nine.Wulff 1:08 Great to see who needs research when you know what you doJake 1:12 not know we're doing I'm also joined by werewolf How you doing? What? Wait that was unintentional burn shit.Wulff 1:20 What? What?Wulff 1:23 Howdy, I'm werewolf.Jake 1:25 Sorry, we'reJake 1:27 What are we doing and to bring us back to sanity for the therapy coach GP How you doing?GP 1:33 I'm doing fine. Thank you.Jake 1:34 It's good to be here. That was more normal than I was expecting. That's great. Okay.Palsh 1:39 Yeah, kind of disappointed.GP 1:44 I had some really good dick and fart jokes, but I decided to try to bring us back to sanity.Jake 1:49 Mission accomplished. All right. We're going to talk about Legend of Zelda Link to the Past. But before we kind of dive into it, I do want to kind of hear for everybody what you're expecting. ends with a Zelda as a franchise just briefly because we could talk for hours about this. Just your favorite movie favorite game for the series and what you like about the series or if you you're like me and you disagree with everything everybody says you hate it, that's cool too. Well, if you want to startWulff 2:14 Yeah, I Gosh, I would have to say that I used to split my favorites up between 2d and 3d entries. Whereas, you know, my favorite 2d game was linked to the past. And my favorite 3d game was windwaker for a very long time up until I played Breath of the Wild and then that one kind of supplanted it and I think it's safe to say now that overall experience like for a proper Zelda experience I think Breath of the Wild is my favorite but Link to the Past is still much more playableJake 2:54 Yeah, I think Breath of the Wild was great for the innovation right, taking the series A drastically new direction and I really I love it too. I'm almost thinking now that for me in the future, assuming they keep making games like breath wild, I have to split up into three, like classic 2d Zelda is your old school 3d Zelda, and then whatever the hell they're doing with Breath of the Wild now going forward, because I find that game so drastically different from the rest of the series.Wulff 3:18 Everybody says that, but to me, it just seems like it took the 3d gameplay and shoved the format into it, you know, the original Zelda just have at the world. Good luck.Jake 3:31 Actually, that's true. It does have that quote that elements and there's just not for me, it's the lack of items, I think is what kind of made it different for me. And just the gameplay being so rely on the physics. It's a great game. I love that one.Wulff 3:42 Yeah, it was a very different entry. It was a lot more limited. There wasn't 40 different items to obtain in the game. It was simpler, in a lot of ways, but also a lot more complexJake 3:56 overall. Yeah, definitely solid title. Alright, GP How about yourself? What's your exposure to zelda?GP 4:04 I personally I love Zelda to The Adventure of Link, not pluralized it's The Adventure of Link. AndUnknown Speaker 4:12 was he not allowed more than one?GP 4:14 No, it was just a single solitary adventure.Palsh 4:17 One is all you need, sometimes.Wulff 4:20 So you think most people refer to that as Adventures of blank.GP 4:23 But now I grew up playing, trying to figure out the first Zelda couldn't do it. And then the internet happened before everybody had a computer in their home. I live next door to the library. And so I would walk over to the library, spend an hour downloading maps for Zelda two, and fell in love with that game at that point in my life. So that one's got a very special place in my heart. I appreciate the newer ones Breath of the Wild is gorgeous. But it is one of those rare games where I prefer to watch other people play it, as opposed to playing it myself, but I love it. Also, aka RenaJake 4:58 Ashley. That's interesting. Make up your mind just so many zealots. I love how you mentioned Zelda two is your favorite though because that's also kind of a How do you say outlier from the series? Right? And we talked before about sequels being so different from the originals, but that side scrolling link game is just quite a bit different than the rest of franchise. That's pretty interesting.GP 5:20 Yeah, I love it. But and one of my favorite things that real quick about the franchise as a whole is the music and how really the music is one of the most cohesive things to tie together all of the entries. I'm sure we'll get to that later on. But you asked about what our experiences and that's that's my two cents.Unknown Speaker 5:39 Paul shovel you What's your what's your fascination with zelda?Palsh 5:42 My favorite I'm not a big like Zelda fan. You monster. Like I'm a freak. I'm a freak. Yeah. And just to prove it. My favorite game is actually in the series in the whole franchise is actually trulyJake 6:00 Yes thePalsh 6:03 Zelda to The Adventure of LinkGP 6:06 we are now almost the majority Good job Paul thank youPalsh 6:09 yeah and I and I'm not doing it just to make this cheeky against Jake but no that's it's literally literally my favorite Zelda game like the rest of them don't compare it to me I know and I understand why people often like rant and say they don't like it but I've never actually heard someone flat out say they don't like it except for a couple of friends that I make fun of for their choices anyway so doesn't matter everybody that whenever I was like playing it or something on stream or you know talking and another stream basically because this you know how I connected with people over games like this. It was always do this my favorite Zelda I'm like, holy crap, me too. So it's it's weird how it's the least favorite but at the same time, everybody I know it seems to be one of their favoritesGP 6:55 is this it's kind of it's that song that comes on the radio, where nobody wants to be like oh, The song so you all just sit there and listen to it and silently jam out. Nobody will change the radio station. Because you would think for a wild, widely, not like game. Everybody shows up when you stream it. Yeah,Palsh 7:13 yeah, that's true.Wulff 7:15 See, I don't know. I think it was a really solid game. People give it a lot of crap as a Zelda title based on the other side of Zelda titles. Yeah, it's a little weird. But as a game, it's really solid. And I think the only issues I have with it personally, are probably due to translation problems. There mirror. Well, no, not not even as simple as that. Like, there's a point where you have to like duck and stab at a table to get into a basement and one of the houses. That's how it's done in real life. Nobody in the game tells you that. And I'm sure in the Japanese version, there was probably dialogue somewhere that gave you the clue.Palsh 7:53 Yeah, the closest you get is like, look under the table or someone says something but table that has no indication on you know which table which were the you know, duck and duck and smack it.Wulff 8:06 Yeah, so it's it's really vague and cryptic about the few issues I have about it because it doesn't teach you these things. It barely even tells you about those things. And that's a problem but otherwise it's a really really good game. And I think that's just a translation issue, not a gameplay issue.Jake 8:23 Well, I mean, if you look at if I were to be locked in a room,GP 8:26 what do you think?Jake 8:28 Thanks to up as you guys were gushing about this, you know, Zelda to being so fantastic. I was gonna just say that I know it gets a lot of hate wolves right. And you know, if I was locked in a room with Mega Man one and Castlevania another hot garbage along with Zelda two I'd probably play Zelda two as well.Palsh 8:45 Take it back.Jake 8:47 I'm only joking it's not a bad game. I actually I actually do like it a lot. For me personally with Zelda I've been a fan for every every game. The only games I haven't played are the crap ones on CBI like a lot of people But I mean, I played the original original NES Zelda on a black and white TV. Like we used to visit my cousin. That was a TV in his room. We used to play Zelda for hours. I love the hell of that game. And it wasn't till I was a teenager when I got a stats I got late. And my dad when he says my dad, he said Zelda and just, he'd want to go play catch outside. He want to go to the movies. me. No, no, I'm not talking you dead. You're not cool. I'm just here to play Zelda. I don't love you. I just love Zelda. I love things of the past. It's, I mean, we're talking about this and we're talking about Zelda and like the past for this episode, but it's funny as we're recording this Link's Awakening remake came out, I think last week or so. And it's playing that, again is reminding me that links awaken is probably my favorite this series, which is funny, but it's, it's mostly because it's a spin off of linked to the past. Like it's very much in that same vein just expanded and better. Right. And but it's the same idea, just something about linked to the past the story The items and helicarrier links awakening both fantastic. I love Breath of the Wild too. But as I said earlier, I almost, I almost think of it as a separate game. It's definitely Zelda. But I don't think it's like the 3d was like our Marina and Majoris mask personally.Wulff 10:15 Well links awakening was very much a passion project, at least for a while it was developed after hours by people who were just screwing around with the Gameboy tech to see what they could make. And I I don't quote me on this because I don't remember who it was. But I want to say it was agio enuma, who actually started it all by himself just messing with it. Either that or he was like one of the first two people I'm pretty sure that jumped in on it. And then that guy was joined by someone else like what are you doing? I'm messing with this trying to make a Zelda game I'm trying to recreate Link to the Past on Gameboy. And they were into it. So they started doing this and it just eventually flow just Didn't do its own thing that pulled in elements from Zelda two and straight away from Link to the Past a little bit because one of the driving ideas behind the development was the ability to have two different like to change both buttons, you didn't always have to have a sword equipped. That was really the driving idea behind it initially. And it just blew up. But eventually it was like a dozen people working on it after hours before they finally took it upstairs and said we want to make this an actual thing. And then they got the Go ahead.Jake 11:35 And see that's actually really cool. Because when I was looking into Link to the Past development, there's actually some parallels there. So I mean, I guess we'll just get right into it then. So then it's super nintendo. I mean, it was unveiled internally, Nintendo in 1989. Right. I mean, obviously the Nintendo was a massive success. Stats had to be better. And there's two game franchises they knew they had to launch very quickly with the system or close to it. And that was very world and then linked to the past. So they actually had development start on both games at the same time or approximately the same time. But from what I've been reading with an interview that mimoto did number years ago, he kind of explained that Nintendo doesn't like to throw whole teams at a game development early, rather just a few people to start with. And then they do what you just described for links awakening, they kind of just tinkering around play with it threw around some ideas. In this case, they're also evaluating the hardware, how far could they push the hardware and see what they could do with it. And after they kind of nail down some concepts of what they thought would be good for a new Zelda game, that's when they started adding in more staff, eventually flushing out staff and then releasing the final game. So that experimentation is kind of like a Nintendo's mo I think for back then.Unknown Speaker 12:46 Raw speechless. That's all good. Okay.Jake 12:51 I'm checking my notes. Hold on one sec, nerd. Okay. Yes, I'm totally a nerd. Okay. So, development link. The past was two names that are being very familiar to people who listened to us before and one of my favorite, it's headed by Shigeru Miyamoto producing and then test tech Ashi Tezuka. I will never say his name right now I'll try I feel bad. I feel likeGP 13:16 he was never say right desicaJake 13:20 It's okay. I'm going to wake up the middle of night and Tesla will be over my bed for the copy of last levels. And he demand they played or I die. Like saw but Nintendo edition. Anyway, it says the cut Did you get for mispronouncing my name? forgiveness please, Jessica. I know he's the one who did last levels. He also had mario maker and that's why I know his name so late much lately as I love mirror maker. He's great director and both him yamoto are the heads of linked to the past. And so when it came to this game, I mean, they already knew that the original Zelda Nintendo was well received, but they want to have to do they have to kind of step it up, do something greater for the news. system, especially if this is going to be like a console seller or an early launch title. I mean, this game came out, I think was just after a year, the console launched. 91 is when Zelda came out was released. So they had to kind of do something new. The original Zelda was well known for its open world. The ability to purchase items from stores was pretty novel for the Nintendo, Nintendo. And the various usable items and you collect it through all these maze like dungeons. So they had to take on that expand it. So they looked in, kind of went back and said, Well, what could we do on Nintendo, that we can now with the stats, so it kind of that's when they kind of looked into things that could do like, more story and more plot better music, right? The idea of having two separate worlds the light world, The Dark World world is stuff that was not possible on the original Nintendo. So there's things like that they were looking at doing. One of the cool things I was reading about was they want to use more water right as an environmental effect. How would you say or gameplay affect the original Zelda there? One dungeon I think it was seven where you can get into the dungeon by basically drain the water on pond but it's Nintendo right there's only so much you can do so it just changed the color of the ground texture so from water to grounds and that's how they did it wasn't very good so when they saw that they want to expand on that link to the past and water and look to the past is all over the place right it's it's a theme in one that one or two dungeons at the very least pluses probably overwhelmed like the idea of swimming I don't think link pass a diving but the idea of swimming changing water lowering water all that's a major facet of like the the past so something to kind of want expand on.Wulff 15:37 As I say I didn't have diving I think it just had ducking to hide under the water from projectilesJake 15:42 Was it because I don't just still pretty close awakening has diving moves the same ideas. Yeah, can I confuse the two so much.Wulff 15:49 So linked to the past just had Ducky talking, but it was it was still a really cool idea of dodging projectile projectiles since you don't have your shield out. You can't just get out of the way so quick The water movement is a little bitUnknown Speaker 16:03 sluggish.Wulff 16:05 sluggish, sluggish. That's a good word for plusJake 16:07 they also they put the Zora monsters the mermaid monsters in the water and they're constantly popping up shooting fireballs at you and their pain on the ground nevermind we're in the water so it's glad there's some kind of defense against that. So I mean there's other things are looking at adding as well. One of them was the idea of fire the original game had the candle which you could burn Bush's right later I think you light up rooms with as well dark rooms that stuff they brought in to Link to the Past. They want to do bit more with it though originally the plan and developing it so that if you set a bush on fire, it would actually spread out to neighboring bushes and just fill the screen of fire wasn't able to do that on the Super Nintendo. They were even trying to just get it down one of the two that the big trees you could burn the big trees down, but they just couldn't get squeezed in there. In interviews memo to set up at six more months at DEF time, they probably could have figured it out. But it's kind of neat because that's the kind of mechanic that later came into Zelda for song. Which I'm not sure if you guys ever played Zelda for swords before anybodyWulff 17:05 I love for swords.Palsh 17:07 Yeah, me and my brother both had it but it was that Christmas time we both got it I think I got a copy of for him he got one for me I think he's have a work we are we we both agreed on getting one for each other and then we tried playing it and then he was gone the next day so I never actually got to experience it properly.Wulff 17:24 Okay, so I'll say that I got to play the whole thing on gameboy advance it was in the Link to the Past initially for Gameboy Advance and that was a really cool adventure. I think it was I got to play it three player. But then there's also the the actual Four Swords adventure on gamecube which was such a cool idea. I loved it, it was think Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles if it were Zelda instead, but then you could also screw with the Players, which often resulted in a lot of salt, and not very long gameplay sessions, so you didn't really get a whole lot of the game done that way. Unfortunately, you just described Bomber Man I'm super nintendo for me. There was too much. There was too much competitive aspect to a game that was supposed to be so heavily cooperative. And I think that was the game's downfall. But I still love the concept. And I I want to beat that game so bad and I don't know if I'll ever get the chance.Jake 18:30 There's gotta be a way we can do it online has to be because I played that as well with friends. I don't know if ever finished it though. But it's one of the reasons why I love couch Co Op games these days like you know, overcooked and, and whatnot because just that same feeling for me right for people on screen, messing with each other. You're supposed to be doing a co op game, but it never goes that way.Unknown Speaker 18:51 But while we're on topic, actually real quick. So the game coke GameCube Four Swords is that different from the 3ds one I thought they were the same thing.Wulff 19:00 3ds What are you talking about?Jake 19:03 Man? Sorry?Wulff 19:05 Oh no, they're very different games the game, the gamecube game is a fully fledged full fleshed out. It's its own adventure. You play it, if you're playing multiplayer, you got to play it with GB, right? That's what I had to do. And it was so cool because every time somebody goes into underground or something, you gotta switch and look at your GPA and play there. And then you go back to the overworld. And then everybody's on the same map again, and it it did a lot of really cool stuff that was way ahead of its time. And I would love to see a Zelda game do that sort of thing. Again, it's just maybe with more accessible control scheme.Jake 19:47 Yeah, well, I mean, that's the thing, right? Nintendo loves. They just love their hardware, right? They're always trying to find new interesting ways to do the hardware. They'll cost a lot of money. That goes back to like the Wii as well right the Wii and the multiple remotes and Just power glad for the or the or the I saw somebody using the force cut months ago that was another trip just so many control options that are bad but it's a lot of fun though I what I played it was really great. I would love to play it again actually okay so I guess I just want to talk a little bit about Link to the Past itself right i mean this is topic the episode and like it's hard for me cuz I do love everything about this game right? I love how there's actually a story to it. I love how it's you know, the tale of evil wizard who is trying to break a seal to another dimension and bring it back Ganon right stealing sages and maidens I think it's fantastic story. I love the music. I love the graphics. So I love everything with this game. So it's kind of hard for me to like narrow it down. So I'm gonna let relined you guys tell me something about the game that you love. And a couple kind of go with it. GPG actually wants start because we're talking about music earlier.GP 20:55 Well, yeah, I think the music is fantastic. Um, one of the things because For context, I just did my very first playthrough of this actually was more of a blind run earlier this year and like February of 2019. So I was brand new to the experience. And so many people have hyped up linked to the past I, I really felt bad for not loving it more until the end, I didn't realize how much I enjoyed it until you know, the credits for scrolling. And I'm like, Oh shit, there's no more I'm not ready to be done with it. But immediately the things that stood out to me, you know, the the more crystal clear, you know, expanded musical tones that they carried over from the older games, but also the clarity of the graphics and the smoothness more than anything. I think smoothness of gameplay is not something that you really associate with the original tues elders. And really see it kind of, I don't want to say perfected but you know, taken to a whole new level. It's such a smooth game and just beautiful There were a couple of things I still take issue with on that game. But on the whole what a What a fun experience. And I My only regret was that I waited 35 years to play it.Jake 22:12 Yeah, it's such a great game. The music is just iconic. For me. It's like there's a handful of composers I think are just great for video games as a whole and Koji Kondo is one of them. He's the one who did like the past, but he's also well known for the merio series as well.GP 22:27 Well, no, I just had his pissed off because the beeping will not stop I suck at the game so I heard I heard more than I heard music.Jake 22:36 Yeah, yeah, that beeping sucks. And that's like an all of them too.Wulff 22:41 Yeah, that's that's a sound that needs to start getting an option. Yeah,Jake 22:46 well, so we'll get to it in a little bit. But the the idea of Zelda randomizers actually have that option. But anyway, before we go into that, the music Koji Kondo Are you kidding me?Palsh 22:55 What? What?Palsh 22:56 Yeah. Oh, why didn't you tell me the lab to play all You know, you have to play Yeah.Palsh 23:02 Now we got to start over. I that is worth starting over for me. Okay, I'm just saying I'm that with the rent. Actually, no, I can't say anything. Yeah, the randomizer I was playing it as research for this. And actually, no, I shouldn't complain about it because the seed that I got for the randomizer I had, like, all but four hearts. I only ended up beating like one dungeon, I think it was.Jake 23:27 Yeah, so it actually has an option to make the beep like quarter beep so it's less frequent. I think you can change it even less than that, or you just turned off entirely. But if you're used to playing the games, and you use that boop, boop, boop, and you're gonna die. When you turn it off, and you're playing with three hearts and you're fighting a boss. You don't even notice you're at one half health or whatever, and you die very easily.Palsh 23:49 If that happens to me, IGP 23:50 very easily no matter what.Jake 23:53 Yeah, yeah, early on in Zelda games is always rough, right until you find that you know, the first few hard pieces to kind of even things out the beginnings are actually very tough. Do hard pieces give you more life. That's how bad the game I don't even know if you want to watch a stream or do a three heart run of any of this all the games, I've seen a few people do that actually. And it just I thought I was good at some of these but now these people are masters at it's insane.Wulff 24:18 I think that would just make me sad.Palsh 24:21 Just be like, no.Jake 24:23 So I wasWulff 24:24 never played Zelda again.GP 24:27 I don't know. I The reason I people say that they're like, I don't like watching masters of games, because it makes me sad. And I think I'll watch ice skating, but I don't kick myself in the astronaut being a master ice skater. Well, you're doing it wrong. Come on. Well, it's mostly an issue with the costumes. I don't look that good in dresses. ButPalsh 24:46 yeah, this is true. I've seen you in dresses. SoWulff 24:50 back to the can bring it back around. Jake's question from earlier. I guess I'll take the answer next. My favorite aspect of this was the fact that it had to overworldJake 25:01 Yes,Wulff 25:01 darker light when I first played it back in, I think, did it come out in 9191? Yeah, I probably paid it in 92 because I don't think I had a Super Nintendo that first year, man that second overworld all of a sudden, just there's a whole nother world in the game. It just blew my mind. I was like, What is this? This is amazing. I was one of those kids who did spend most of his time indoors playing games. I had a TV in my bedroom. I had all sorts of stuff. So when it was that, like, that's not to say I didn't go out and ride my bike all the time and stuff like that, because I did that too. But it was cold or I didn't want to go outside. I could game my friends could come over and hang out with me and we could just play in my room. And this is a game I spent hours on I played the crap out of it. I beat it once I beat it twice. I probably beat it six or seven times in the first two years of owning it. And it was so much fun. This is a game that friends and I would sit Watch each other play and we're doing we're doing the twitch thing well before twitch was a twinkle in someone's eyeJake 26:08 you're watching me through a window andGP 26:11 would have been much better to be able to band people back then to get out of my out Larry go change your name and come back laterWulff 26:20 go home john john. You're pissingGP 26:21 me off you know john.Wulff 26:25 I knew a few of them. I knew a few John's I knew a few Jimmy's. We all hung out. It was weird. And that's not a joke.GP 26:36 Before I forget, I have to ask you werewolf. I have to ask you a question about everything you were just saying that you loved. Because earlier when you were talking all that mess on Zelda to Adventure of Link about the No one told you to look under a table. That was my main issue with Link to the Past. There's so many things that there is no indication that you should look under there or move that Like the bubble walls are the closest thing you get to hince other than that, you know, move this tombstone pick up this tree. Like how are you supposed to know that stuff? So I feel like your thing about that was Zelda two is a good point. But I want you to address how is that okay for Link to the Past? Because that's where all of myself that game came from.Wulff 27:22 See, I don't know I just kind of knew that certain things could be moved, you know, you can move blocks, you start messing with stuff. I do think Sahasrara law might have had a lot of clues hidden on the walls and dungeons and around yes and whatnot. That might have explained it. I don't know. I it's been so long since I played the game proper. I can't guarantee that Sarah Sally said everything.Jake 27:49 Sarasota was a sage or in some respect, please.Wulff 27:55 Oh, I'm sorry sir Sarah Sally.Palsh 28:00 So, I mean, there was also some stuff listed into the mag manual too, soWulff 28:07 that's true. And then if you really got stuck there was that little hint guide that came with the game too. I still Oh yeah.Palsh 28:15 A little was like fold out the black and white folded.Wulff 28:18 Yeah, little two by three fold out pamphlet.GP 28:21 Yeah. Okay, well, that's fair. I guess. If you grew up with the game, and you had a tablet or something like that telling you what to do. That makes more sense. Thank you.Wulff 28:31 That little booklet though. It was sealed when you got it and it made sure to let you know, you know, only open if you get really stuck.Palsh 28:38 Yeah. And you opened it like the first or second dungeon because you didn't know what was going on. You know, you never forget it. ButGP 28:47 let's just like the table. Yeah. Now, you know, look under the table, right?Jake 28:51 Yeah. That's like a Zelda Zelda is all about rewarding exploration. Right. And the idea bottle walls almost didn't make it into the game. So than the original Zelda, you could, you know, bomb walls but they weren't distinguished, I think then we could tell them the original was with the sound of the note that it made when you hit your sword against the wall. I think that's the thing. And they have that and Link to the Past. But Miyamoto experimented with, you know, having the ability to bomb walls because he found that was very rewarding to players if they actually took the time to explore dungeon and four secrets. But then he realized what the original, you know, the problem is, is too easy to miss, you know, some of the rooms that could be there. So if you didn't know to look for the rooms, you'd be kind of missing out on some of the content. So that's why he kind of stuck with the idea bominable cracked walls, so it makes a little more visible to what you're doing. But there's some stuff that like both mentioned, sometimes you just know you need to do something in a room. Like when you're playing a Zelda game and there's like five blocks standing on their own. You just know you're going to push one of them. It's just one of those things that kind of ingrained on you early on with the gameplay.Wulff 29:50 Yeah, or if there's a key door in a room and there's just a bunch of enemies and nothing to do probably kill all the enemies in the Drop a key something like thatJake 30:02 but like it's definitely a game it doesn't actually hold your hands or when your hands that's the thing anyway but you definitely a game where you have to explore I guess to kind of get the most out of it there's items you can miss I think in that game as well. You don't necessarily need all the items to finish the game which I think is amazing. Paul shovel you Yeah, well, yeah, there's the invisible cape is one of the item Oh, yeah,Wulff 30:24 there's the cane the cane.Jake 30:27 Okay, at least a few.Palsh 30:28 Yeah, I found the magic cape. By mistake. I remember that. And I was really proud of myself because neither of my brothers did it. So you know when there's a 10 year gap between you and your older brothers, and you do something they did? It's bragging timeWulff 30:42 I got a little that from my little brother from time to time wasPalsh 30:47 asking them do that still. No, I remember loving the game because Zelda to was probably one of my favorite games because it was one of the few I had like I remember When Super Nintendo came out we had probably half a dozen actual games we rented most of the games. So if I got a game is usually for birthday or Christmas gift and that was it and I mean, Christmas gift we're talking Sears wish book you know there's a lot of stuff besides video games you had to get your hands on so so there's a lot of rentals I got and so when I actually owned Zelda two on NAS I think I got it at a yard sale with a bunch of others like Simon's quest, pro wrestling and something else and it was it was instantly because I owned it is my favorite. And then I played it extra and I was like this is better than I remembered. You know there's only like two years that's probably like 11 years old or something. But because of that I was like instantly a fan of linked to the past and when I played it, this is good. This is good. This gets better. We're getting stuck and getting last and ripping open that cheat sheet. You know, that cheat sheet. Never basically fold it up again because it was always left out. There's no way to You stopped it. You needed it every time. And you wished it was like pages and pages longer. But it was just really fun because it felt like a Zelda game for some reason, even though the only one I actually had experience with was Zelda two never played the first one at this point, and then this one came out I played I was like, okay, cool, played links awakening and not long after it came out, just like, this is great. And I remember buying it for $25 because it was like, not a greatest hits version. It wasn't quite they didn't have the greatest hits kind of thing or the game of the year, whatever. They called it back then. But it was probably around. I'd say 9796 something like that. And I found a copy for could have been earlier than that actually. But I remember finding copy of Walmart for $25 and just begging my dad Can I can I can. I managed to get it and so then I fell in love with it again. So it was just held a fun place. My heart I don't care for it as much now, but back then it it just blew me away because it was just such a good game.Jake 33:08 Yeah for me i think it's it's the influence its had on the rest of series is what I think draws me to liking it still even today like to go back to the music for a minute. Oh good.Palsh 33:18 Oh no, I was going to agree. I mean that's that's I think what makes me feel so good about is how much of an influence it is on games in the future because there's not a lot of game like it's not in my top 10 anymore, which is saying something because this is still a damn good game. The influence of head on future gaming I think it's, it's crazy, like direct or indirect. It's there,Jake 33:42 like the idea of the music even alone. I mean some of the themes that are famous throughout the franchise, things like Zelda lullaby or Gandalf theme, or Hyrule Castle, you hear bits and pieces of those themes in every Zelda game up to the Breath of the Wild even. So like that Music from this game is pretty much through through the entire series. And I mean the idea of the spin slash and then you know, various items and stuff. There's there's a boomerang, there's a hookshot and various sequels to the franchise. They're all kind of used in slightly different ways, especially in the 3d Zelda. But it all kind of comes back to like, the past has been the origin of a lot of that stuff. I mean, the original intent of Zelda. I like it's great. But I think it really just kind of cement the idea of an open world exploration and dungeons. But as links to the past that broke out into the idea of all these very unique items and Collectibles that really excited and exploring things. Right when we talk about Metro veiny is, I think, the past kind of belongs as part of the what we call the makeup or history of that kind of genre is part of like the past as well. It's very much like Metroid, right?Palsh 34:50 Yeah, it's it's like more of a kind of top down version of it as opposed to just like straight up platform, right? But it has the same elements to it, which I think That's probably what appeals to me still is because it has that that certain path you have to take and there's shortcuts you can do their stuff. You can go for extras, but you know, there's a there's a set path and there's a reason behind it.Jake 35:13 Well, and so like, I mean, it's not your top 10 for me, it's probably my top three. If you asked me what my top three favorite games are, it changes every month to be fair, but linked to the past like the past is always on top three. I really love that game quite a bit specially for the Super Nintendo. Again, I'm played as many of this NES games other people have but this one is great. I love this but I think mario world it's like an eight for me Link to the Past is like a two or three if not higher, it'sPalsh 35:42 great. And considering how much you like the Mario games that's that'sJake 35:45 my boy loves me my merioGP 35:50 think I'm culturally and in the history of gaming. The impact of Link to the Past is pretty undeniable. To the point that even if you don't like the game, You have to be able to say well yeah this is this is culturally significant in the gamer universe, right? SoWulff 36:09 you know what that's that's actually I think my brother's position on the franchise is most Zelda games he's not into. But he he like understands why people are into him but they're not for him. Granted right now he's going through the new links awakening and loving it so I don't know maybe that'll rekindle something in him. But yeah, he's he's not been a Zelda fan for most of hisJake 36:30 life. If he loves links awakening, then he'll he should like Link to the Past. I mean, I think links awakening is probably a better game is that remake is pretty good too. But links to the passes permission, same thing. But it's also for me, it's a it's a game I think is very timeless. We've mentioned before that's NES games or 16 bit era era for me will always look great, right? As nice as 3d graphics are, I can still sit down and play an old school 60 big game and love it. Sometimes Nintendo has that but For me, it's always been 16 bit. And Zelda game I still play today I play it quite often. But once you've kind of found all the secrets and you've, you know, you've mastered the route through the dungeons linked to the past, you know, it's not so fun to play anymore, at least in its current state. So, let's go back a couple years ago. I don't know if you guys fell for it. There's this huge fad of roguelike games. You know, raise your hand if you played it. roguelike right. Rogue Legacy was Oh, absolutely. Everybody's playing theWulff 37:30 legacy Binding of Isaac it The list goes onJake 37:33 bunny Isaac is very clearly influenced by Zelda, right? It's like smash TV by Zelda.Palsh 37:37 Oh, yeah.Jake 37:38 So read the idea of procedural games. It's really popular. And then the idea of ROM hacking or modding of old games has been around for a decade or more, right. And there's a lot of people who do amazing stuff with ROMs there's a few notable ROM hacks for like the past even there's one called parallel worlds. It might as well be the unofficial sequel to Link to the Past. It's It's a fantastic run. Mac, it's practically a brand new game. It's amazing. But what's really got me about a year and a half ago now is a group of folks had put together basically a randomizer. What they've done is they found a way to take the ROMs code and scramble various things to randomize it. I guess that's the name of why they call it randomizers. But they would take all the items in the game, and they would spread them around, right? So you wouldn't necessarily get a sword from your uncle and the first part of the, you know, castle dungeon, maybe you'll get a boomerang. Maybe you'll get you know, fuckton get five rupees, right, it was completely random. But the way that was ingenious about it is they would scramble the items. But they would put in logic to prevent you from getting screwed when you go into the dungeons because links to the past requires certain items in certain parts of the game. So they kind of adjusted the game's code and logic to account for that. So Link to the Past, and randomizers it's been a huge thing for me, last year and a half. It's one of my favorite things to do when I have free time is to play round of Zelda randomizer it's at the point now where I can use Beat one in under four hours, which I'm pretty proud of. Because it can be linked to the past fidella in usually two and a half if I'm feeling good. So the randomizer to me just brings this fresh of air to a game that I used to love as a kid. And now I love it even more now because I also love roguelikes I think they're great. The idea of procedural content in games has always been fascinating to me. Like I'm a big fan of Minecraft, but my issue with Minecraft was not of Zelda like influences in it right? You had sorts in Minecraft but you didn't have dungeons Really? I mean, you had kind of dungeons. You didn't really have fun combat but you had this great exploration element. I always wish that it had Zelda like elements. Zelda randomizer manaphy Minecraft but it has anything I want. So the rammers is great. So the recent additions actually they recently changed a bit so now you have boss shuffling so the bosses even change sometimes they can duplicate sums they won't I mean they added in power changes to the dungeons can look different now that have various characters appear to be as as a cosmetic thing. Probably important to polish they got rid of the heart beating Right. There's a lot of options built on the randomizer website that's just fantastic to check out. I asked you guys for the podcast and maybe just do a round or two of the round of the randomizer to see how it is. Pulse you want to start because I know you started a randomizer probably before I did actually,Palsh 40:14 I was probably spending just as much time trying to get the ROM hacked work because I'm tech inept. But once I got it going, I was like, okay, you know, I'm gonna give this a shot. I've seen a lot of friends playing it before and I was like, Okay, cool. The games. Kind of getting old for me. I'm just kind of sick of it. I called it the Mega Man to center my first because it's just like, everybody was playing a randomizer I never sounded like the first time I played the game on stream. People were like, Oh, it's nice to see someone actually playing the vanilla version. I was like, cool. Okay, right now, welcome. But the only time I've ever seen people playing randomizers up until now was watching people race each other or, you know, do PBS and stuff like those speed runners basically and ones that were that knew the game inside and Which is amazing, but it's just not for me. So I just I guess because of that I kind of had this automatic bias towards and I'm like, okay, I don't don't like it. You know, it's not for me. But when I tried it, I mean, I like the original game. It's nothing wrong with it as it's a great game, but just trying and the excitement of actually trying to think your way through it because oh, I don't have a sword. I didn't have a sword for the first like, 4550 minutes. And I was like, I'm in trouble. And everybody in chat was watching me play it and they were like, Oh my God. Oh, you got a hammer. Thank God, you know, like so there was this kind of tension that that wasn't there since I first played the game. And that was kind of cool, because it was like playing the game. You had similar feelings of playing the game for the first time, but still being familiar enough with it that it? You know, it hit the nostalgia button for you. So I gotta say I was very, very impressed with how much fun it actually was when I finally dreadJake 41:58 it. Yeah, like the highs and lows. are fantastic man playing that like you have 200 rupees you know you need to go to Kings or to get the flippers but in a randomizer you don't know what you're going to get. And I think every time I've played one I almost never get something useful from Zora it's almost always something stupid like arrows five rupees a cane something I don't want and it always curses name like every single time.Palsh 42:21 Yeah, I looked it up because I get the flippers It was like one of the first three things I've gotten. And then so I was running around trying to kill things with pots. Yeah, because pots pots and bushes because I couldn't actually swing at them with anything and then I ran out of bombs. So I had bombs and something else I'm still in the same game. I'm still trying to get the damn lantern so I'm kind of stuck. So I think right now I have to just find my way in the dark and I'm kind of scared to.Jake 42:47 I think wolf when I watched you play a little bit. I think you were stuck with the lamp as well trying to find one.Wulff 42:51 Okay, so I played two randomizers this week. The first one was Just the Link to the Past randomizer and right up front it was given me awesome item after awesome item like I had the Master Sword before I even made it into a dungeon. It was that crazy. I had the hammer I had, I had all sorts of stuff. What I what the game just would not give me was that lantern. So it kept it keeps cutting me off from various paths within dungeons. So I can only do so much because I can't do anything without the lantern. I have no book I have no lantern. I'm hosed as far as getting into donePalsh 43:44 it's just thinking of which he's not the Canadian one in here butWulff 43:47 but it's a pretty much off the table for me with that stuff. So today I decided to try for the first time the Super Metroid is linked to the past randomizer because both games I'm very familiar with It's been a long time for both of them, but I, I've played the crap out of them numerous times. Explain how they actually what they actually do. Like the randomizer for that. Yeah, so it puts items from both games in either game. And there are points within both the Zelda world and the Metroid world, where passing through a doorway will take you from one game to the other. You know, samas can find upgrades for Sammis or she can find upgrades for link or items for link or whatever. Same with link out in Hyrule, you can find items for Sammis and so it's, it can be frustrating, especially since with my experience, let's let's This one was less kind to me. Let's Let's start with that. I was super excited right off the bat. You know, it starts you in Metroid. It starts to in Super Metroid. So I jump into the game. Run around on Zabbix for about, I don't know, five minutes you can do anything. And then you just zPalsh 45:10 was it z? No, I No, no no I just call it jeebs cuz was Elvis doesn't sound right to me stillWulff 45:15 number one told us I want to say it was Eric. Someone told us how to pronounce it properly because of other pronounced it.Palsh 45:22 Yeah. And I forget what it is.Wulff 45:25 Yeah it was I went to go through a door and all of a sudden boom I walk out of a house in High Rollers link and I'm like, Okay, cool. So I'll start exploring all sorts of stuff here. I know this world I know there's a ton of treasure chests I can get even with nothing because you have no sword. You have no nothing when you start the game. I start running around. It probably took me about shut up Google. It took me about it probably took me about two hours. To even find the Morph Ball after getting to link so I was reaching for straws trying to look everywhere I could and I think I probably found the last chest I could obtain with the items I had that was finally they Morph Ball and then I could run over into play as Sam us again. Got to do a whole bunch of stuff there. ended up getting my way to norfair struggling my way to norfair let's be honest, because I didn't have a whole lot of help with her. I got no health upgrades for samas finally get to norfair went through a door boom I'm back in high role on Death Mountain. I was like yes, okay, I can do more stuff. And again, I'm still linked running around without a sword. I'm killing things with the hookshot or bombs. That's all I've got to kill things. And most things don't die from the hookshot they just get stuck so I it was a mess. After three and a half hours of gameplay, I finally found a sword for linkPalsh 47:00 Three Okay, I don't feel bad about my 15 minutes now.Wulff 47:04 No, it was and then I had to call it for the day. But that was I will be going back to that one. Because now it's now it's like I have to it's a challenge that has been accepted.Jake 47:19 yet. The first time I did that I've only been at like twice and it usually takes me around 1516 hours. It's, but I've also I love Super Metroid, but I don't know where all the hidden stuff is. Whereas Zelda I know very well. But the few things I'm probably missing in Zelda and Super Nintendo or Super Metroid is probably what screws me through those randomizers but it's really fun.Wulff 47:40 But that randomizer playing it is really what has settled it in my mind that Yeah, Metroid and Zelda are a lot more alike than I think people realize.Jake 47:51 So same with the metro videos as a genre, like the two games are very, very similar in that regard. It's great.Palsh 47:58 Yeah, I never realized until Till recently actually have similar those games actually are so, but first I'm like What the hell are you getting on with you know, combining those two games that couldn't be more different now I'm like, okay, I dig it. I'm scared to play it. But I did.Jake 48:15 I do love wolf how you got screwed but the two hardest to deal breaker game items in those games is the Morph Ball and the lamp. If you don't have those, those games become very difficult to get through.Wulff 48:26 Speaking of which, I still have no lamp in that Super Metroid Zelda randomizer.Jake 48:32 So they do let you do a few. I don't have a speed round tricks. There's a few glitches you can do to get through certain parts or even just tricks like for like the past. There are people who memorized the layers of the dark rooms so you can get through them. I'm not one of them. The game's coded so you don't need to do that. There's left somewhere. But I've seen people just skip it by going to the dark rooms. And then for Super Metroid. Lava diving is probably the big one, right? Because there's you The fire the various various suit virus suit where we say that the presses against that a lot of damage. Yeah, so that's you do need it in Super Metroid. But there's a couple of rooms where if you have enough health, you can still dip in the lava proceed and get what you want and come back out. And that can actually give you a bit of a shortcut and certain certain circumstances. Again the code it's you don't need to do that. But it's helpful if you kind of do those contracts.Wulff 49:24 However, I feel like this can be a very dangerous slippery slope for me I think I'm going to start probably spending more time playing these randomizers and now I'm interestedJake 49:35 Well, I made the mistake See howWulff 49:36 I feel after I beat one but right now I'm I'm totally enticed by the the ideaJake 49:45 of doing a randomizer race and the two other guys I was racing against kicked my ass because they were doing the dark room dark rooms with lamp because they knew the layout because they're that good. And it was hilarious. But he also watched a few Zelda races randomly racers What do you think?GP 50:01 Well, I, I watched them wanting to kind of do the homework as we say, or do the research before playing a randomizer because I know everybody else has played him this week to do the research. But again, having only played each game Link to the Past and Super Metroid once and earlier this year, I quickly realized I'm not going to be playing those randomizers because I don't really know either of the games well enough to be able to formulate strategy. So the first video that I watch, and that was the dual game randomizer. At first, I'm like, this is going to suck because the guys who were racing actually as a race, first thing they found were or God or Silver Arrows, so not being familiar with the game, or randomizer something. Oh, this is just a new way to cheese, these games, but it was almost like the commentator was directly talking to me and my psyche, because it goes that's a great item, but it's not worth shit if you don't have the bow and arrow and you can't do anything the sword or the morphable and I'm like oh my god I've completely underestimated what this is. And so I was between minutes five and six so I think in time I may try to go and learn the vanilla versions so that I could do a randomizer but I'm I feel like I'm still so far off because the guys playing you know as they're getting items in their mind you can just tell Okay, what can I go do now what can I cannot you know, what can't I go do now and the commentators as well are saying I think they're gonna go to lower norfair and I'm like, I don't even know which game that's from know your shit. I don't think I'm sitting here thinking is there a Mario randomizer is there you know is there a randomizer I can try first. So I'm there is dipping my toes into the shallow end of the randomizer pool I can tell you the one thing I wish they had already fast forward button Don't Don't get me started Don't get me started horrible joke and I don't mean that but like I said I completely underestimated how much I thought I would like it. It did give me an appreciation for how little I know about these games. But that did not make the experience of watching the races any less fun.Jake 52:29 Yeah, a good color commentary makes all the difference for watching a speed runner race especially with the randomizers because if they know the ins and outs and explain things It's like watching a basketball game or for me a football game. I know jack about football. But if they commentator can explain what's going on in a click away it's it's all the difference.GP 52:46 Oh yeah, if the if the video was on mute, I wouldn't have lasted 20 minutes but being pulled in and and watching how the two different guys because they're playing the same randomizer like all the locations are the same thing for each racer. But the way in which they strategize in their head ensures that they just route it differently even though they have, you know, I don't know where steps that but it was incredibly enthralling and entertaining. And like I said, I wish I'd had more experience with both those games. So I, you know, I would be able to do them,Wulff 53:22 but we'll get there in time. I want to say it was summer of 2018 that I, when I was doing laundry, cleaning the house, whatever I would put on those selda races because they had a huge tournament that lasted a couple weeks. Oh, man, those were so cool to watch to just check in on them while I was doing stuff around the house, folding laundry, whatever. And, you know, I'm folding three different people's laundry while sorting them and all that so it's given me something to do while I'm just folding clothes, hanging them up, whatever. It is so cool to just see how they play so differently. I watched so many races, it's ridiculous. And these people were like, you'd hear the commentator like, well, this guy's made the choice to go here. And this guy's made the choice to go there. And that's a big gamble. But if it pays off, it'll be huge. And you know, you see him take that chance and all of a sudden, boom, he's way ahead of the first guy because he took that gamble. It's ridiculous just to see these strategies play out.Jake 54:19 Yeah, it's almost like a competitive Sudoku. Right? It's or competitive crossword it's like a logic puzzle that people are figuring out as quickly as possible. But far more exciting, right?Palsh 54:30 Yeah to terrible math to even do a regular Sudoku thing.Jake 54:35 But you know, I was bad at randomizers and and being into it took me forever to beat my first plane Zelda one and the Zelda Metroid crossover one, I still struggle with half the time. But up you're saying that you didn't want to try the randomizers because, you know, you've only played each game once you don't know where everything is. On the one hand, though, that can be fun as well because that comes back to the thing that makes the series great which is exploration right. Playing the Zelda Metroid one especially, it's a whole double world out there of just exploring, right? Is he finished it or not, maybe. But it's fun just playing it, and trying to explore the various nooks and crannies for the items and see how they work together. I think it's great, even if you're not familiar with the base games, butWulff 55:16 there's also the different tiers, you can set the randomizer to where it's not throwing all the rupees around and everything. If it just swaps the items, you know, or something like that. You can you can make it lessGP 55:28 crazy. See, that's the thing I don't want to I don't want to go training wheels and I know that's 100% 100% ego warplessUnknown Speaker 55:37 Right. Yeah.GP 55:39 But I do like that's the thing is by the time I attempted I want to be knowledgeable and I get what you're saying subject and maybe maybe that's enough to change my mind and just dive in. Instead of like I said, Wade in the shallow waters, but pretty pretty much my only my only confidence with that that set of two games is that I could properly Identify, which I didn't goes in which world. And beyond that I really, it just seems like such a massive undertaking.Jake 56:08 It's still, I still want my most favorite things in recent years. I've always loved retro games even, even now in the current next gen systems. I still like going back to the 16 bit era, but to see people so passionately about randomizers and like ROM hacking and just bring a new life to these games, I think is just fantastic. Well,GP 56:24 and you kind of said something like that earlier, which is what gives me the field goods. And lets me know that retro will always be around and that is people are coming up with new ways to play the old games. And so long as we have things like that, I mean, retro. There's no reason for it to die out.Unknown Speaker 56:44 That's a good final thought. Yes. All right. Well, I think we're hitting our timeGP 56:49 and like I said, I just, I picked and picked on air. T moPalsh 56:56 again. Do you wash your hands this time? Nope.Unknown Speaker 57:01 I see no reason it's good time to endWulff 57:03 with a sentimentGP 57:05 in fatik Nope. Why would I start now? I mean come on.Jake 57:09 Alright folks. Well JP we'll start with you. Where can folks find you?GP 57:13 Yeah, I'm right here other than presby to cancel I had to go from the peak of my my prowess with my thoughts to the lowest of the trough. So there we go. No other than press me to cancel you can find me on the retro therapy which is on Twitch Twitter. We got YouTube we got Instagram all the classics.Palsh 57:36 Yeah, the retro therapy. And Paul shovel you Where can folks find you? On GP so my answer because I was seriously but saying you can find me right here. Now. Now I have nothing witty to say. So you can find me here and sometimes on Twitch.GP 57:52 You can you can answer first it'll be fine.Palsh 57:55 Now that's too much trouble now.Jake 57:57 filming this episode need a lot editing. Sorry. Okay,GP 58:01 mostly just because the discord I think discordsJake 58:05 Yes, we'll just we'll just blame it all on Discord. We're will help people find you.Wulff 58:12 I can be found again here. And on Twitter and Twitch at werewolf w ar e w ULFFPalsh 58:22 sounds like a radio station who carryWulff 58:28 cartridge with a wolf like as a wolfJake 58:33 and we're commanded to live here on Radio presby to cancel you listening to us right here and my name is sick Jake you can find me on Twitter or sometimes on Twitch like polish. And you've been listening to presby to cancel. Special thanks for music go to Arthur the ancient found on Soundcloud or the last nation on YouTube. For more episodes, please visit our website presby kancil.com as well Feel free to like or subscribe at Apple, iTunes, Google podcasts or anywhere else you'd like to listen to your favorite shows. As always, thank you. This has been an ad again.Special thanks to Arthur The Last Ancient on soundcloud for our podcast theme. For updates and more episodes please visit our website www.pressbtocancel.com, or find us on Twitter @pressbtocancel and Instagram @pressbtocancel.

The online community is one of the biggest forces behind bourbon growth. This is where people go to learn more, ask questions, make connections, and find new and interesting bourbons to try. Reddit has been a platform for those conversations for a long long time. The popularity of the /r/bourbon subreddit has now eclipsed over 109,000 members and it’s continually growing. We sit down with T8ke, one of the moderators of the /r/bourbon subreddit, to get a glimpse into a moderator's daily life. We look into the type of content that gets upvotes, how the AMAs work, and how being anonymous plays a role vs Facebook where it’s your actual name and profile. Join the sub https://www.reddit.com/r/bourbon/. Show Partners: Barrell Craft Spirits has won a few medals at some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there, but don’t take their word for it and find out for yourself. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: Whiskey Advocate Top 20: http://whiskyadvocate.com/top20/ This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about whiskey marketing. Tell us how you got into bourbon? What led you to discover more? What type of content do you see on Reddit? Is there a newbie factor? Do people really like the reviews? Who is the typical person checking out these reviews? What does AMA stand for? What were the top AMAs? Tell us about the Reddit culture. Talk about the anonymous factor. Are there any issues since it is anonymous? Are there sales in the forums? What kind of growth are you seeing in the forum? What topics are popular? Why do so many people on Reddit hate Fred Minnick? Have bourbon posts ever been on the front page of Reddit? How much time do you spend moderating? How many posts do you get during release season? When people post do you have to approve it? Who has it worse, Facebook or Reddit mods? 0:00 200 episodes in I'd have it you know, it's process down, but 0:03 we'll get it man I still got my shit together so it's fine. 0:08 Sounds good. 0:20 Welcome back everybody it is Episode 230 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny and I hope that you and everyone out there had a great Thanksgiving. And now you're preparing for the holiday rush. I put my visa and my American Express card to work this past week. And I know that there were a lot of bourbon Black Friday and Cyber Monday deals out there too. So I hope you all got something good and you have something to sip on for the rest of the month leading into 2020. Now, let's hit a little bit the news. Whiskey advocate has released their top 20 whiskies of 2019 and I'm pleased to say that five of the top 10 are bourbon, including old Ezra seven Woodford reserves master collection batch proof, the New Heaven Hill bottled and bond seven year for rose a small batch select and topping it off at the number one spot, which is kind of surprising to a lot of people is George Nichols bottled and bond. 1:15 Now we're big fans of dickhole over here but 1:18 it didn't win our whiskey of the year. Nor was it our favorite in the bottle and bond blind we did back on episode 224. We're going to be releasing our results on December 26. For our end of the year podcast, you can get the link to whiskey advocates top 20 within our show notes for gate whiskey company is releasing a new expression in collaboration with Kelvin cooperage called split Steve bourbon. The name comes from three different barrels that Kelvin deconstructed and built new casks. These barrels included number four and number two char barrels in a series of medium toast finishes. They took these barrels and rebuilt the cask and almost like a zebra like pattern. The whiskey however, is a A five and a half year in 12 year Kentucky Bourbons bottled at barrel strength of 115.6 proof with a total of this release with 2700 bottles. They will only be available on shelves in Kentucky and Tennessee. And they have a suggested retail price of $175. And bourbon is all about community and the online community is one of the biggest forces behind its growth. This is where people go to learn more ask questions and make connections and also find out new and interesting Bourbons to try off other people's recommendations and read it has been a platform for those conversations for a long time. The popularity of bourbon subreddit has now eclipsed over 109,000 members, and it's continually growing. On today's episode I sit down with take he's one of the moderators of the bourbon forum on Reddit. And we get a glimpse into a daily life of a bourbon subreddit moderator we look into the type of the content gets a lot of uploads, how ama's or ask me any things work, how being anonymous plays a role versus Facebook where it's your actual name and profile in the mind, plus a few other goodies that are kind of surprises. I'm going to keep in there for you as well. All right, now let's get on with the show. Let's hear from Joe over a barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich, with above the char. 3:23 It's Joe from barrell bourbon. Our Bourbons have won a few medals at some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there. But don't take their word for it. Find out for yourself. lift your spirits with barrell bourbon. 3:35 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. I want you to take a moment and think for yourself. What if you are starting a new bourbon? Would you start with the whiskey? Go to distilleries foreign wine across this country? pick out a flavor profile said that's what I want to get. Would you buy barrels? Would you comment? tractus still and sit on them for a few years? Or heck would you try to get a whole bunch of money together? And by someone like I say, I don't know, four roses, not saying they're for sale. But if I had a whole lot of money, I tried to buy four roses. Is that what you do? See? If that's the case, then you're a lot like me, in that you think about the whiskey. You think about the whiskey and what it tastes like how it will mix who you want to drink it with. But that's not how a lot of new players coming into the game. Thank you see, what they do is is they get in a boardroom with all these fancy MBAs and all these marketers who have experience with Porsche or Colgate or who the hell ever, and they say it all depends on packaging. It all depends on the name, the brand and the messaging. Some of these new companies getting into the game of spirits will have 35 conversations before they ever get to the quality or taste of the product, it's phenomenal. These companies will burn a quarter of a million dollars to like $2 million on something like, what it should be called, or what the bottle should look like. And all they do is a fascinated with the one aspect that they can actually can control. And that's the creation and the marketing of it. And that's the beauty of American whiskey is that all these people who are trying to enter the game, never understand that it's not about what the bottle looks like. It's about the quality, the flavor, and whether or not that I want to buy the bottle, not a first time. But the second time. You see marketing and branding is absolutely important. But it only gets you to buy that first bottle of bourbon better be good Get me to buy the second one. And that's this week's above the char pay. Speaking of good Bourbons, I just announced my American whiskey of the year contenders. You can go check them out on my YouTube just search Fred MiniK American whiskey of the year contenders, and I'll be doing a live tasting for those on December 20. So market the new calendar December 20. At 9pm we're going to pick out my favorite whiskey for 2019. Until next week, cheers 6:39 everyone welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, just Kenny here today but this is going to be an exciting topic as we look into the realm of bourbon culture, and really what it means to be involved in an online community. You know, we've talked about having, you know, different places where you go To find information, there's then for the longest time, if you're an O g in the realm, there were straight bourbon.com. If you're pretty new into the world there is you kind of just figure out these ways of getting into these secret groups that are on Facebook. But there's one form and one board that's been around for a long time. And that's Reddit. And they've had multiple types of different boards. There is our bourbon, they've heard Scott swap back in the day, there's been all kinds of changes that have gone down in the history. And so today, we're going to kind of be looking exactly it. Really, what is the community on Reddit all about? You know, is there is there a sense of, you know, belonging, is there a sense of attacking Is there a lot of anonymous factors that play into it that people don't want to really reveal who they are, but they'll they'll want to say things behind an alias. And so we're going to kind of talk about that today because it's it's always good to really figuring out what's happening inside the bourbon culture and really the people that are in charge of Making sure that these forums don't get out of control. And that's what mods or moderators are there for. So today on the show, we have one of the moderators of the slash are slash bourbon forum of Reddit. He goes by the handle t eight ke or take. So take Welcome to the show. 8:19 Hey, thanks for having me. 8:20 Absolutely very happy to have you today. So anybody that is watching this live or they're not just riding in their car, they'll notice that you're not showing your camera kind of not showing your face. And that's kind of one of the things that is is a little bit different in the, the Reddit world that there's this whole like, anonymous factor to it. And so before we kind of get there, you know, because I always want to kind of start the show and kind of figure out and learn more about our guests. Tell us a little bit about how you started really getting into bourbon. 8:54 Yeah, no problem. So um, so I've been in a bourbon for some time. Now. Unfortunately, I didn't start back and what People would consider the you know, the glory days you know, I didn't swimming pools it's a Weller and stuff like Pappy wasn't $29 at CVS like everyone seems to think it was, you know, 20 years ago, but I came to it as someone in college who didn't love crushin you know, Keystone is or Keystone light out of a washing machine. And I started coincidentally enough without any sponsorship, wild turkey What I wanted was my go to at the time. bourbon was inexpensive bourbon was cheap, you could buy bourbon everywhere bourbon tastes good bourbon tastes good and everything which is exactly what college people like. And that was a time when I thought you know, how am I God? You know, how can people pay $70 for 25 year buena hobbiton, only to realize, you know, 10 years later what what what a what a monstrosity that would be that's the value of the century so bourbon was what kind of got me into you know, enjoying drinks with some friends and it kind of works for everything and you can take it anywhere and you know, have it on a weeknight and have another weekend and that kind of fostered my love of you know, drinking things to taste tastes Things, say, you know, drinking things to wake up two days later and, you know, kind of Hope you pass them exams and stuff. So that's kind of what got me interested in, you know, alcohol that could taste good. 10:09 Yeah. And so kind of talk about, like, What led you into trying to figure out how you wanted to discover more? And and what were those pads of really learning for you? Because podcasts really weren't, weren't around. So, 10:25 no, they were, it was kind of interesting, because, you know, back then a little bit, you know, Reddit was, was one of the biggest resources, if you if you google the bourbon, you'd probably find the manufacturer. And then boom, you'd see this Reddit thing and at the time, and as someone who's always been in it in technology and software, you know, read it's kind of the gold standard for sharing good information. So it was only natural to say, you know, I'm on Reddit all the time because of X, Y, and Z and I like bourbon. So I know there's going to be a bourbon subreddit and no, Looky there, you know, it's right there and it's well moderated. There's good content and kind of is my crews always taken me, I think the best way to learn about something is to think about it and write about it and try and tell other people about it because it kind of helps you gauge your own understanding. And that's the point where I decided that, you know, if I really enjoy drinking bourbon, you know, pretty frequently it's my go to beverage, you know, why shouldn't I try and learn more about the origin and the procedure? And as someone who likes chemistry, you know, why do things taste the way they do, and the best way to, you know, talk to people about that, that I don't necessarily see every day is to write about it. And that's kind of I challenged myself to, to try and write one review a week and I thought, Oh, God, if I keep this up for a couple weeks, you know, I'll be golden. Which, you know, now I try and get one a day which I think is fun. So it's definitely grown from you know, kind of a starting spot to just wanting to know more and hoping that other people would teach me by calling out mistakes in my writing and, and kind of sitting down and just trying to think about, you know, what, what was in the glass. 11:51 You know, so for myself, you know, I started really trying to focus a little bit more on the on the bourbon subreddit over there. Just to See if we have any kind of presence and stuff like that. But the one thing that I noticed when I when I go over there is that the type of information is is exactly what you said, it's a lot of reviews. There's a lot of people that are always kind of like constantly spitting out reviews kind of talk about what that what the content us is what you normally see over there. 12:21 So I would say, you know, our bourbon is part of what we call the whiskey network. And in the whiskey network, we try and have subreddits that are very specific to very specific things because some people might only care about serious bourbon information or some people might only care about horsing around or some people might say, you know, bourbon is, is well, you know, I'm a scotch guy and so is part of the whiskey network. Our bourbon really fits to try and provide concrete, accurate information to people who are seeking information about brands, or you know, reviews from users who've taken the time to sit down and write about a very specific products. That's why things like, like means we kind of put in whiskey porn, which is where We're like, show us your collection or like, you know, give us you know, give us whatever whiskey meme you get. So our bourbon seeks to satisfy kind of the serious bourbon person who's looking for not only concrete information, but reliable information, and that's, that's something we try and uphold. So that's why you see a lot of reviews because people, you know, sit down and say, you know, this is my review, and these are the notes I get, and then hopefully, I can find other people who have similar palates who either agree with things that I like or disagree with things I like, and that really helps to start a lot of conversations. 13:29 Yeah, I think you kind of hit them on there. So when you talk about like the agree and disagree, you know, somebody just writes me because I've been on there like there's people that are going to say like oh, like I'm going to go ahead and write a review on Weller gold vein, and then somebody's like, I'm just gonna do one on Eagle rare. So like, is there is there like a, I want to say like, like a learning curve, but like a, like a newbie factor, like, Is anybody shame for bringing in something that's just like basic everyday stuff? Or like, I mean, how does that work? work. 14:00 I mean, so like, like with everything in life and I see a lot, you know, because I have to kind of sift through the post and I see a lot of people who start and say, like, Man, this is my first review and it's gonna suck. And, you know, they're like, I can't taste anything. And I'm like, you know what, I agree with you, I couldn't taste that much the beginning either. And, like, you know, your palate is like every other skill in life, like some people have strengths and weaknesses. like nobody comes out of the womb, like an Olympic runner, like, you got to do some running to get to Olympic runner status. And, you know, I'm, you know, reviewing is definitely not an Olympic sport, at least not my opinion. Otherwise, that'd be awesome. But, you know, reviewing things and thinking about things really takes time and practice and it's really super fun to see people at different points of their journeys is like, you know, this is review one and oh my god, it tastes like ethanol, like back again tomorrow. Hope it's better. And then some people you know, who after just five or six reviews are like, yo, like, I get it, or like, you know, I think I taste these things. What do you guys think? Like, yeah, you know, those are all things that I would think come out of that as well. So there's really no expectation that like a good review is like, I don't know, like stitz a while or from like the 60s or the 70s, or the 80s. Or it's got to be unattainable and expensive. Because, you know, we can all afford to drink that every day. And honestly, if you find someone who likes the day to day stuff you like, and then you see him, you know, taste gold vein and say, Well, you know, I thought it was good, but I honestly like some other stuff better than you can kind of take it you know, in stride that, you know, if you're going to spend 100 bucks an ounce on something, maybe you want it to be something else. 15:27 And so I guess the you know, when you think about the reviews is that do people like really find that something that they're they're really attracted that they want to go they want to comment they want to upvote or downvote or something like that, because it seems like there's just, you know, if there's a I mean, every day, there's probably what 30 or 40 new ones that get posted something like that. Definitely. 15:48 Yeah, so it's actually the communities both that are bourbon or scotch and especially our bourbon or, as far as I can tell our super welcoming and in fact knowing very rarely do I post review or see other people post reviews. and be like, Man, you wasted your time like, Man, this is garbage. There's tons of people. I mean, we get thousands and thousands of people a day from all over the internet that just come to read. And, and it's kind of interesting to see, you know, for the 10s of thousands of people you might see show up on a weekend day, you know, posts only have like, 15 or 20 upvotes. But the people who upload and take the comment, you know, take the time to comment are actually really kind of on the inner circle of people who come to the subreddit to engage. So we have the vast majority of our, you know, subreddit is probably lurkers and people who just, you know, want to Google, you know, hey, I'm sick of fireball, I want to try this. And then they read a bunch of reviews and either decide to buy it or don't and we never hear from them 16:36 ever. And what would you kind of categorize as the? I mean, I guess it's, it's kind of hard to figure it out. But maybe the typical person that is attracted to reading on Reddit, because it you know, if you can figure out is there an age, age range or demographic, that people would be more inclined to go There versus other forums. 17:02 Surprisingly, we see we see a pretty significant kind of blend in and we don't get that kind of specifics and that's not something we're really even interested in as mods is there's not a lot of at least that Reddit would share with us because Reddit ones add money, we just want to talk about bourbon. But I'm, for sure. I mean, I will admit the female population is a little bit on the low side, at least from self identifying people. As far as I can tell people that are between you know, hey, I want to buy my first bottle to I've been drinking for 40 years and I think most people fall somewhere in the middle of that. And just kind of you know, some people I talked to every single day and you get a feel, which is kind of a cool thing even though you don't know what they look like and you don't know how many kids they are and they don't know what their illnesses, you you know, you get a sense of people of who they are through the bourbon they like and through what they comment and what you comment on their stuff and, and getting a sense for that you kind of meet people individually, but we I'd have to imagine that our key demographic is probably like 27 to 55 and mostly dudes. 17:58 Yeah, I mean, I come from a Tech background. Most of the listeners probably know that and so Reddit is always seems like a place that you go for a lot of stuff, at least in tech where things get posted. People ask a lot of questions. There's the ama's of it. And I guess for for anybody that's not familiar with Reddit, you want to explain what an AMA is? 18:19 Oh, yeah, so an AMA is just short. It's, it's a TLA, or a three letter acronym for asked me anything. And that's usually when we have a person in the industry, or we have a prolific individual, whether they're a writer, author, you know, something like that. And they basically say, Hey, I'm gonna dedicate the next x hours of my life to sit here and answer questions from random people like you on the internet. And then we all we screech internally and we all get really excited. And we ask them all sorts of crazy questions, at least hopefully, you know, Master distillers are super awesome. We've had people like Russell's and, you know, distillers, the master distillers and brand ambassadors from a lot of majors still resolve come up and say, Hey, we'd like to dedicate some time just to talk to you guys. 18:59 Yeah, it's like I know That I think I think Danny Potter did one a little while ago. But I mean, can you recall like some of your like your top one or top two or three that you've had in regards of ama's. 19:11 So, for me, the four roses and wild turkey ones have been awesome. I've really enjoyed also high West was interesting, but I've kind of, you know, as I go through things I identify a little less with the way the high West is doing. But you know, is for as much love as wild turkey gets, they certainly deserve it. Because, you know, they were willing to sit down and just give us huge long responses to really technical questions and just kind of show us that you know, that they care about the people who buy all their Bourbons, not just the expensive ones are, you know, not just the people that buy 10 cases at a time. 19:43 What's the over under on if it was Jimmy or Eddie actually sitting there and typing it or if he was just talking to somebody and having somebody else type it up the answers. 19:51 We got the impression it was Jimmy, he said it was Jimmy so you know knowing Jimmy in the Russell's I'm inclined to believe it was Jimmy. 19:58 That said if it wasn't Came party person, they did a great job of acting like a human being and stepping up. Yeah, yeah, it's got I'm sure. I don't know, it'd be kind of funny. I've never seen Jimmy in front of a computer before. So I don't I don't know how what is kind of like words per minute is that he can crank out to answer because I'm sure that the form was just blasting at that point. Yeah, 20:18 well, the nice thing is the way the way we do ama is because we understand that, you know, Jimmy probably is not a lightning typer. And you know, he's a busy guy. So we like to field questions in advance. And we like to say, you know, for a week, we're going to take questions, and then we compile them in a Google Doc, and we send it to them, and then they get to kind of sit down and think about it and give us, you know, really meaty answers, and then they send it back to us when we post them so that that kind of helps us a lot of forums do it live, which is great for people who love computers and just want to sit and type all day but for master distillers who have 10,001 things to do in a single day. It works really well for us to field questions, then we get to, you know, there's always like, would you rather fight like 100 duck sized horses or a horse sized duck and like, okay, that's fun, but you know, We've got bigger questions. So it kind of helps us give them good information and show respect for their time. And then in turn, they do the same for us. Oh, for sure. 21:07 So, you know, you kind of ask that you kind of put that in there as a typical question, talk more about like, a little bit of the culture, when people ask these type of questions, or when people are giving responses, like, Is it a, you'd mentioned that it's pretty pretty welcoming? And I'm sure you got there's always a few bad apples in the bunch, but kind of talk about the culture and what it is to make sure that you can kind of skirt a little bit of that behavior that that doesn't actually provide any real you know, good meat to the subject. Yeah, so 21:40 the, the Reddit, you know, the Reddit culture is, is probably I like to think of it as a little more serious than Facebook. I think Facebook, you know, no fault of Facebook is a little more casual and people, you know, love to post their jobs and stuff. Reddit really focuses on being kind of a more technical area, and we see that a lot in the kind of people in the posts we get. Because, you know, moderators aren't responsible for making the majority of the content, we just kind of see what goes on. And, and really, as long as people seem to know what they want out of the subreddit, and don't just show up and say, like, recommend me a bourbon, you know, that's not going to get good answers. In fact, you know, I would probably prepare a little snark on the side for that, too. But, you know, the the subreddit itself is really good at you know, saying, hey, person, you know, whether you're here to write a review, whether you're here to ask a well informed question, you know, by the way, here's the search bar, we've probably answered this 100 times. You know, the first time you're asking this is probably the hundred and first time that we're hearing this. So, you know, we go through the work to make really nice posts, like, you know, why don't we just, we'll just nudge over the search bar, and hopefully, you'll find what you want, and if not, then post a question. But the subreddit overall I think, is pretty wholesome. You know, we have our own little flame wars and people getting Spats because, you know, ultimately, bourbon is a hobby of passion. You know, you spend a lot of money on a product that you know, is made by a huge commercial company for the most part, and everyone's got their tastes and you know, after two or three dreams, everyone's fired up. About usually nothing so, but on the whole, in whole, the, you know, the subreddit as a whole is very welcoming and very valuable and I think seeks to really spend a lot of time to make sure that people get good information as long as they put an effort to receive 23:12 it. You know, you hit the topic on the search bar and some stuff. You know, there's, there's a very valuable document that you all have that I tend to share with people a lot, because there's one thing that having this podcast, we get emails all the time and, and I'm sure that anybody is looking and really getting the bourbon, and they're planning the next vacation. The first thing they ask is, what should I do on the bourbon trail? Oh, my God. And I'm sure that you all had so many of those questions that you just said, screw it. We're going to make a sticky we've got a we've got a living Word document and that's what people can point people to. 23:49 Yeah, and it's is it crazy to I got to point out one user, I can always, every time you know, I scroll through new I hit New and I see new posts. It's like we're going to the bourbon trail and I'm like, I know that if I open this up refractions going to have you know, a comment with 100 posts that link to you know, hey people that have been the bourbon trail and also here's a document you know, that's a hugely routine thing again and it is nice being able to have a document that we update to point people to because ultimately you know everyone forgets to stop or two as opinions but you know, here's all the information Google Doc printed out stick on your dashboard and go 24:21 Yeah, I mean, I've I've used that as for people that are asking for recommendations, I'm just like, Listen, I don't have time to sit here write it all out, go check out this document and then ask me any further questions if you need some help narrowing it down because it's it's got a lot of information there about places you know, basically what you can expect to get and every visitor experience you know, just a lot of really good information that was baked into it. 24:44 Oh, good. Well, I'm glad it's useful. Yeah, we it really is a joy to just see posts and be like all right, we got a document we know you're going to love it. We know you probably didn't look at the sidebar because nobody looks at the sidebar. So 24:54 it's so you know, another thing about the you know, as we're touching the culture here, and I mentioned it At the top of the show was the whole, like anonymous factor, it's, it's a little bit different when you go to Facebook and you have to have a profile. Most of the time, people are only allowed into groups when they have been on Facebook for X amount of months or X amount of years. So there's not a whole lot of like, fake profiles in there that are, you know, either spamming or they're trying to trade crap or anything like that. However, it's a little bit different on the on the Reddit side, so kind of talk about the the idea of wanting to continue to stay anonymous and not really be really forthcoming with with who you are in this type of form. 25:43 Oh, sure. So one of the benefits on you know, you know, Reddit is almost completely the opposite of Facebook in that respect you on Facebook, you can find out, you know, where someone went to second grade if you care enough and the person's care was enough and I think that's great for people who want to connect and be friends and You know, you don't care where your information goes and read it on the other side, you know, you're on Facebook, because you want to be on Facebook. And while you're on Facebook, you find things that interest you and read, it's kind of the opposite you go to read it because you want a specific thing, unless you're bored and drunk on a Saturday night, and you go to random and just find random subreddits. But typically, if you're going to read it, and you're not just trying to burn some time, like if I have a question, you know, you know, a Linux question I'm going to go to sent us if I've got a question about cars, I'm going to go to our cars. You know, if I got a question about bourbon, boom, I'm in our bourbon. And so that's kind of our identifying factors that everyone is here at have some interest in bourbon. And we get to bond over that. And people get to, you know, kind of push out things, you know, you can't tell a person's political views and you can't tell you know, where they work or if you dislike the way they look, or if you know, you're tired of seeing, you know, 100 pictures of their kids every day because they have a new toddler and they just can't stop posting photos. You know, read it really cuts out everything that isn't, hey, I'm here because I care about this topic. And that's kind of where we all linked from, and that's something I think is valuable because people Feel for better and for worse and certainly, I think mostly for the better, but certainly for the worst of times that you know, you can be free and open and you can have people in the industry who maybe don't want you to know that they're in the industry but have something really valuable to contribute because they don't have to say, you know, you know, hey, I'm chip Tate, like and everyone's gonna go who you know about down Wayne's World, you know, we're not worthy. You know, you can just be an honest human being and I think that's huge for Reddit, especially since there's all these reviews and, you know, sure, you can have some biagio shell, you know, right and stuff, but people pick up on that really well. And, you know, you can tell that the guy that sat down and written 100 reviews cares about bourbon, if you're going to talk to him, you know, he's going to care about bourbon, I want to talk to you. And that's one of the biggest things I think that we gained from kind of the Reddit anonymity is the fact that, you know, we all show up because we want to talk about bourbon or Oh, you know, I run into this guy in our sandwiches, okay, we like sandwiches in bourbon, you know, you know, stuff like that, but 27:55 there really is a subreddit for anything that isn't there. 27:57 Oh my God every day like I found one it was called critters Cappy buyers and I was like, Oh my God, who knew that was the thing. And sure enough, you know, we got ducks and chickens and stuff like sitting on top of caffee bio. So there's truly is a subreddit and if you can't think of it, The fun thing about Reddit is you get to start your own, you know, my buddy Tex, Tex a sir who's another mod, you know, said, you know, there's, there's a subreddit called shower thoughts, but what about those thoughts you had after you had, you know, a couple extra Bourbons. So he created drunk genius and just like that, you've created a whole area that people can come and find stuff that you have in common with them. So I think that's probably one of reddits greatest assets, especially in terms of anonymity is you know, that whoever showed up wants to show it because they want to talk about the thing that you, you know, you want to talk about and not because you have the same alumni or you know, stuff like that. 28:41 Do you think that it ever plays a role in in kind of being the bad side of being anonymous because whether it's somebody that posts a review, or whether there's a news story, and people can they can be downright cruel, right? It's the internet And so are there times when like, that just doesn't play in the favor of what you're all trying to do. 29:06 Yeah, that's definitely a thing because everyone feels empowered when they're anonymous. And we hope that people feel empowered for the better. But we all have bad days, we all have a little too much to drink sometimes, or some of us are just really nasty people. So it's very simple for people to take advantage of a hugely powerful tool, which is anonymity and just being upright, you know, just be rude about and be mean about it. And I have to commend my film on we do a really good job of staying on top of people like that, and we kind of know over time that, you know, hey, I think this guy's just here to cause trouble or, you know, this thirds gotten that and like, let's we need to shut that down because it is easy to get off topic and people are passionate about a lot of things besides bourbon and bourbon can often connect people who have other mutual likes or dislikes and sometimes they like to duke it out on a thread about, I don't know Buffalo Trace where it makes no sense at all. So there are definitely cases where anonymity serves us for the worst. And that's people who, you know, people who just who just want to tear down anybody's day and they choose our corner of the internet to do it and we don't see it a lot and we get trolls from time to time and we get members from other forums who maybe disagree with the way the sub is run, but for the most part, I'd say you know, 90% of interaction is overwhelmingly positive. 30:18 Mm hmm. And, you know, the one thing that that I do see that happens in the Reddit world that is different than Facebook, is that it's kind of like a like a no bullshit mentality that goes into it. You know, if I if I think of like one of the first forums that I joined back on Facebook, you know, Wade Woodard was the mod for it and it was it was buy sell trade, no discussion, no, nothing like if you messed up like you're booted. And, and so the one thing that we kind of see that happens in a lot of the Facebook forums now is that in most of these are there in the discussion forums. Sometimes they're in the foresail forums. They'll post a picture of a gun next to it. And then everybody just goes eight shit, right? Like, yeah, yeah, in. I mean, do you all have those problems to where people like they post something like that and then all of a sudden it just it's a spew of like a political battle underneath of it? 31:18 Yeah, we get stuff like that pretty frequently, especially in recent times, you know, there was a President Trump's, you know, tariff wars and bourbon is affected, you know, and I get it, you know, it's a political thing. You know, a politician has said, I'm going to weaponize tariffs, and then boom, you know, Bourbons effect and suddenly everybody in their mother is forgotten that we're here because of bourbon and talking about how bad politics are. And we and we get that we understand there's often overlap, but yeah, sometimes spreads like that we get a lot of, you know, appears by DRAM and in the background or 900 guns like okay, you know, maybe some thought should have gone into composing a picture and we do get people that like to show off stuff like that, and that's a prime candidate for whiskey porn, which is kind of a post all you know, maybe not A big discussion and I'm a mod there too. So I get to strike down some of the, you know, people who get really, really angry there as well. But there's definitely a lot of overlap. And we get a lot of posts like that or you know, or even like one of the commenters, you know, Kendrick Pennington has said, you know, people who just want to show up and trade off the the, you know, antique collection they got last year, and we have to kind of, you know, kill that too, because some things we're just not allowed to have on the site. And some of the things we deem don't fit within kind of the spectrum of what the subs trying to do. So, there's there's a lot of objective rules we found, and there's some subjective ones as well, that we as mods kind of to say, you know, I don't think this fits a serious bourbon, you know, subreddit and we have to yank it. 32:38 Yeah. And I guess kind of, kind of expand on that, too, because there was at one point, I believe there were sales that you could do in some of the the forums. I know, somebody talked about scotch swap. I'm sure there was a bourbon swap, but kind of talked about, you know, what crackdown happen if you were around at that time? 32:57 Yeah. So um, so Buying and selling was always a no go. That was always a you can't trade money for alcohol. And that was a Reddit rule. And it was also kind of a, you know, hey, what we do on scotch swap is kind of already in the gray area, right? Like it's not, you know, it's probably wrong. It's probably not right. But it's small scale, and we all trust each other and it's friendly things. So we let it slide and, and that works great. Scott swap was for bourbon, it was for you know, it was for scotch to a lot of people, you know, rums and a GAVI and mezcal and back canara and stuff like that, and you could find some really fun stuff and, you know, we do giveaways and we'd have people sign up for you know, like a round robin like blind Easter thing, right arranged, you know, 300 people would sign up and they'd send a mystery to a partner that didn't know they were getting stuff and it was a super fun thing, but right as Reddit got bought, I want to say it was last April, maybe late March, they decided that it was against their terms of service, and quite frankly, and we're still pretty salty about it, but they they decided that they just had to shut it down and they gave nobody any notice. One day, I remember I was in a meeting because I went from no PMS and I have a smartwatch to getting like, I got like 75 pounds in like 10 minutes. And I was like, Oh my god, and then I logged on to see that Yeah, they just did band scottsbluff. And they said, Hey, guys, you know, we're we don't care to tell you why. And we can't tell you the rules about it. And actually, not not Can't we just won't like we're not going to give you the time of day but it's against the rules now. So we banned it so sorry, you know, screw you get out of here. And then it was kind of obsessed after that to interpret what the rules meant. Like because we sold whiskey inventory would people would post other bottles and people would pm each other. And since then we figured out that Reddit has bots, the crawls through people's inboxes so they are reading your mail. So if you're asking people about swaps privately, you're going to get the hammer and it took me probably eight months until I posted no getting ready to do this here is bourbon, a single barrel at New riff, you know, I actually got banned for three days because he said whoa, you know, we thought your China private, you know, even though I had all the information that said hey, here's a retail They're licensed, here's our distiller their license, you know, we're not handling any sales, we're not handling any swaps we're going to let people buy from an approved retailer. I mean, it took probably a whole week I was offline, just trying to get an admin to talk to me to give me information and say, like, Hey, we jumped through all the hoops you gave us like, why Sue? Can't you do your job. So that was a hugely turbulent time, too, because a lot of people only came to read it to try and you know, trade bottles, and some of them still come back to do that. And we have to say, you know, new, new, new, new, new, new, new new, you know, those are the old days, and we get why they had to do it, you know, you got venture capitalists and you want to make ad money and you want to make money and, you know, adult sending each other booze probably isn't good for you know, whatever brand is trying to give you millions of dollars. So, stuff like that. So it's, it was definitely an interesting time. And it's something that we still real from because, you know, sometimes users just get banned and we have to like figure out why and, you know, I have to poke an admin and be like, Hey, buddy, like, like, can you like at least explain it because like, we got 90,000 people like we just want them to be well informed. I want to give them good information I want to know for myself because last thing I want to do is get banned for trying to help the community by doing, you know, single barrels for you know, subreddits stuff. So that was definitely a there was some lost sleep on that one. Yeah, it 36:12 sounds like it that was lost sleep or do you finally get some sleep because you're like a I got seven days off. 36:17 It was it was weird because I was like, um, you know, and the other thing is once you're banned, right, like, you can't talk to moderators. So I can't be like, Hey, guys, I was banned, but I'm working on it, you know, you're just kind of like gone, which is, you know, for something kind of a bad you know, kind of backfires a little bit when you don't know anything about anybody else. You just know that you like to moderate bourbon together, it makes it hard to kind of keep things together and be like, you know, I wasn't trying to do something illegal. It's just nobody knows why I got banned. So you know, there was some relaxing, it's always good to get away from the internet. I try and take a week or two each year to just you know, know reviews, do some computing on my own, go to a lake drink a couple beers and stuff like that. But yeah, that was an interesting time. 36:57 Yeah, in you. You just mentioned something as well. So Like how big this community is, I'm looking at it right now. It's creeping up on as the date of this recording 93,000 members. We're talking at 5:34pm on a on a Wednesday afternoon and there's 478 people online. So that looks 37:16 that looks right. I see. 92 449 37:18 Yeah, so I mean it's it's it's really getting up there. So what kind of, you know, what, what kind of growth rate have you all been seeing, say like an by month or by year or anything like that? With the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon, who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. 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You know what kind of growth rate have you all been seeing say like an by month or by year or anything like 39:49 that. So just just because everybody needed one more source to tell them Bourbons definitely a hot thing right now. We're seeing bigger growth, especially in the last couple of years. Since hopped on the Help mode. We're growing faster than any other alcohol subreddit right now we're growing faster than our scotch, which was previously were like, Whoa, this the scotch thing, gangbusters. You know, people people really like it. Our bourbon is screaming past that right now. And I think you mentioned it by the time this hits the air, we will be well over 100,000 subscribers. And we've got some fun stuff lined up. I won't talk about it, because it'll already have come to fruition. But, uh, yeah, we get about 100 subs a day right now. 40:28 That's, that's impressive. That's a lot. That's a lot going on for people that are just trying to tune in and, and be a part of it. And I would kind of imagine that there's, it's like any form, there's, there's probably more lurkers than there are people that are actually contributing. So, I mean, what's the it's probably it's probably a smaller percentage. But I guess when we start thinking about let's let's kind of change the topic because we talked about reviews a little bit. What are some of those topics that that sort of come out that really get a lot of upvotes? A lot of comments. stuff like that, that really kind of spark a conversation. 41:04 So I found that there's, there's, there's four posts that really, if you if you see a high karma post, it either fits into one of four categories, I think it's the first category is it as a review of some hyper expensive unicorn or just really super rare product which, which kind of makes sense? like everyone's like, Oh, you know, on the total opposite and you got reviews of like, the absolute worst whiskey that has ever existed and people gotta feel bad taken out, which, which is fun, because, like, you know, do you truly know what the best bourbon is until you've tried some really bad ones? And a lot of people are kind of agree with that. And, you know, we'll try stuff like, you know, like, there was a bacon flavored bourbon that, you know, shouldn't have been called the bourbon, whatever. But you know, bacon flavored whiskey and everyone's like, that is truly terrible, and you've confirmed our suspicions like, here's enough. The third category of posts is like, hey, we've got a lot of dedicated people who love to watch the TTP website. And those people you know whether they follow skew on Twitter or whether they're just kind of trolling through the website and they say hey, here's the post, this new label was just approved and you know, and the label being approved isn't a guarantee that the project will come to fruition but you know that a brand is thinking about that product you know, we get the inclination that brands actually watch our bourbon from time to time and sometimes, you know, if people react well we see those products and people react viciously you know, either we still see those products and then we laugh at them or we don't see those products at all. And you know, we don't know how untangle that is but people love to see you know, what may be coming down the pipe which is super fun too, because, you know, products every day need release new products and we want to know when we can buy them and the first step to buying them as thing that they've been approved. And finally, the fourth post is kind of just discussion posts or people who take a lot of time like, like wild bird one on ones, you know, his or so I remember one one, Wild Turkey, you know, his exhaustive timeline on you know, wild turkey or we have posts from people like koumori or some chemists who like you know, step up to talk about Things like, you know, chemical compositions of bourbon over time, or lead into cancers or people that really show that like, Hey, I think Bourbons cool but like, let's delve into some super niche topic. And I'm going to give you a hugely vetted, well sourced, you know, document about this phase of bourbon and we try and gather a lot of those, whether it's through one of the moderators, you know, posts of the month, or we killed them, or they end up on the sidebar, but those are kind of the four big posts that make up the majority of really popular posts. And in between, we have people who want to know where they can find blends every single day, you know, people who, you know, you know, you see a lot of reviews that are, you know, that aren't poorly received, you know, they don't get a million upvotes but people you know, you'll see that they have 30 or 40 comments where people are just saying you know, Hey, thanks for for reviewing and I like this too. What do you think about this other project now this other product or expression line and then people talk about that? So 43:53 yeah, I mean, I think that we see, we see kind of a difference in the the Facebook and the Reddit world like in the Facebook world. Nobody posts the reviews. And if you do, there's usually as you mentioned earlier, like 5050 chips underneath it, and everybody's just either making fun of them or tell them they don't know crap or whatever, right. So there's, there's definitely like a difference in the culture there were like, reviews and Facebook, like people just don't want to read them there. Whereas in Reddit world, it's very encouraged. And so it's, it's, it's fun to kind of see that however, you know, me just lurking, I always see the ones that have the most karma the most comments or anything like that. Definitely those discussion posts. The ones that really kind of, like, you know, archit somebody or the ama's or something like that, too. Yeah, but there is one thing that I always find what find funny, and I'll ask you, maybe you don't have a good answer, but it seems like a lot of people on Reddit, they really hate Fred MiniK. What's, what's up with that? 44:54 Ah, 44:55 um, it's funny. You mentioned that and I think Fred's a good guy, but um, I think that I can understand why a lot of people dislike him and, and I'll try and give a voice to that. And I understand that I definitely won't embody what most people have an issue with Fred and you know, and people have a lot of different reasons. Maybe some people just don't like his Ascot and I get that some people just aren't asked got people, you know, I'm more of a necktie guy, but, you know, MiniK has done a lot of work for the bourbon world. And I think that, you know, while he deserves a lot of credit for that, I think he also gives himself a little, little extra credit on the side as being you know, hey, I'm the voice of bourbon, you know, bourbon isn't, you know, hey, the voice of millions of people who like this drink, but I am the voice of bourbon and it is it is my bourbon given duty that I should convert everybody that doesn't like bourbon. And if they don't like bourbon, I should tell them about this other project I love called rum because I also want to be the face of rum. And I think that's good. You know, you got to make money and you got to write books. And it's good to have things to write books about the people also, like you know, because if you read a book that people don't care about them, they don't buy the book and you don't have a house. So it's a complex issue because it's a passion and some of us choose, you know, like Mr. That, you know, Bourbons passion, I want to keep it a passion. So, you know, no money, no Patreon, you know, here's all the info for free. And I'll just give it to you how it is. And I think that a lot of people while they respect that, you know, he's an author kind of seemed taken advantage of the landscape a little bit, and I would probably agree with them and whether whether it's founded or not, books take a ton of effort, and I respect people that have the attention span to write books, you know, I write white papers for work all the time. And, you know, that's about as far as I get. That's, you know, that's enough attention for one day. But uh, you know, I think a lot of it comes down to kind of casually using the spirit and just saying, you know, hey, drink what you like, which is great, that's exactly how you should drink it. But these are the brands I think your best. And I think some of these articles kind of trivialize stuff by saying, you know, these are the best experts or these are the, you know, this is now the Pappy of rum, which like good. Yeah, you know, if I hear the Pappy of anything anymore, someone the other day told me this was the Pappy of servers and I just wanted to punch them to like HR was right there. I can understand it because a lot of people spend a lot of time on Reddit saying, if you come to me with an informed question, I will give you an informed answer. And I will respond to every question you have, simply because I love bourbon. And I get that and I feel that and I know that bourbon is always for a lot of people, and it's a career for Fred and so I can kind of understand that the people who like to rip on Fred probably don't align in perspective with what they're trying to accomplish with bourbon, you know, the people who relax with bourbon, it's their passion, probably won't see it with a guy who makes all of his money on bourbon. So that that's kind of my read on why people hate them. And, you know, I won't say they hate them. But, you know, he is an easy target. And I don't know if it's because he's, you know, he's, he's pretty, he's pretty available. You see him on Twitter, you know, you see him on Facebook, you see him, you know, across the Internet, and so, people always attack and easy target and I think that he's an incredibly easy target because he is sort of the face of bourbon, whether we like it or not, and the face of bourbon makes it easy to punch. So it's for better for worse. I think it's kind of a product popularity but I think there's also drawbacks with kind of taking something that can be so complex and boiling it down and saying, hey, these three brands are the pappi of X, Y, and Z because on the backside that threw me some dollars. 48:13 I can't get speak for the dollars part. But you know, I think we always try to tell for it because, you know, he's, he's, he's got his thick skin now he's, he's kind of immune to it. But he, he works on Reddit every single day. So he pays attention to a lot of stuff and, and we always send them things, you know, and, and we always, we always tell them because we'll send them things and we get people bashing them, or making fun of them or something like that. But we always were always like, hey, Fred, you see this? And he's like, thanks, guys. No, I didn't but now I know. I did. Yeah, yeah. But we always tell them like it's a good thing, man. Like that means you made it like if Yeah, really hating what you do. It's because you know, you hustled your ass off, and you're trying to make this happen, right like nobody else. Literally, there's nobody else in bourbon that's doing what you're doing. And it's not like you're a distiller, you can't pump out a product, you got to figure out the ecosystem around it. 49:07 Yep. And honestly, you know, people you know, there's almost seven circles of bourbon hell and I think Fred MiniK exists in one but like, I don't know, like, last spirits guy and course their distillery in garrison brothers and brands like terapy are in total line, they exist in a completely different one. And I think that if you're going to live in a you know, circle of bourbon now, it's better to be in the one that Fred's and then the one that, you know, we would consider like, you know, the lowest of the low and the garbage producers and people who just you know, don't give a shit. So, you know, it's a product of success. And I think that if you can find funding that, you know, that's absolutely what you got to do, otherwise, you're going to be miserable. And, you know, it's not about being miserable. 49:45 Absolutely. I think it also shows a lot of restraint from Fred to actually not get on there and like say anything to anybody because I know I know he's on there versus You know, when somebody ever says anything, it has something about bourbon pursuit. I'm always either respond like Hey, like we tried doing this or blah blah blah like trying to justify my existence there. So the he definitely does a good job resisting that. 50:07 Yeah, I'd agree and just like anything else, you know, you know, once you put a lot of time and then you're going to meet people that like what you do and you're going to meet just as many or more people that hate what you do and honestly if the people that hate what you do make you stop doing what you like to do, then you've only made the people hate what you do happy so 50:23 it's so the the whiskey category in Reddit is is pretty large. And we just mentioned earlier, you know, creeping up right now this 93,000 members with inside of the bourbon subreddit, but you know, there's one thing that if anybody that's kind of like unfamiliar with Reddit like there's, there's this the front page of Reddit like that's where like the top news and everything happens. Has there ever been anything in the whiskey category, even our bourbon that has ever been in like front page of Reddit? 50:53 Honestly, I can't tell you that there's been an hour bourbon post and most of that is because many years ago, it was very easy. Get to the front page of Reddit because Reddit restricted how many upvotes a post could actually get sued, see popular posts on Reddit top out at like 1500 or 2000 or 3000 votes. And since they lifted that restriction, it takes like 30 4050, you know, to hide 25,000 of votes to, to get to the front page of Reddit, that's great for communities that have hundreds of thousands or you know, even millions of subscribers and, and honestly, 92,000 people isn't the biggest separate in the world and the fact that, you know, we constantly don't have content that people are going to post, you know, 1 million people aren't going to post this to Facebook, you know, this link to this, this lady falling out of the bed of a truck because you know, this dog that looks real cute in a stroller. Those things just appeal, you know, and honestly, as a person who loves dogs, like, you know, give me a dog video and I guarantee you know, half the world loves dogs, but only one in every thousand people love bourbon. So it's kind of expected and honestly, we I think that at least Personally, I enjoy that. We get people who want to come to us, you know, or people who find us through other Whiskey subreddits are people who find whiskey people, you know, people who are also into whiskey and say, hey, go check out this place on Reddit. Like I'm telling people all the time at work like, Oh, you live Reddit like, and you love whiskey, like, go check out these subs, but we don't have the kind of reach where something's gonna hit the front page. And then we'll get a, you know, 30,000 subs in a day of people who are just kind of stopping by and I think that actually really helps bring up a lot of value in the subreddit because the people who come and find us are the people who wanted to find us. And that honestly keeps up more riffraff. And so talk about your life as a mod real quick, like the amount of time that you're you're pushing to actually take care of the discussions? Is it is there a fire drill every single day? Or is it like okay, like we can, you know, wait every other week, you know, what's that kind of like? So I'm moderating. I moderate a lot of subreddit. So our Bourbons definitely one of the biggest if not the biggest, so it's kind of hard to break our bourbon out separately. I think I moderate like 2021 subreddit. Some of them are smaller. Some of them nobody care about some of them are mine. That's just like, hey, if you just want to review and no discussion, no bullshit, go to the sub, and you'll just get one review a day, whatever, you know. But like our bourbon is actually pretty passive. I mean, I probably remove five to eight posts a day. I know that other moms probably removed the same and those are always like, like, Look, I found two bottles, the Blanton's $400, you know, which just doesn't fit through all the stuff. So it's got to go or like, Hey, this is you know, this news article was posted seven times today and this, you know, the sixth the first one, they got to go, you know, and that's just a rule thing. And sometimes I get like, Oh my god, that dude is being an asshole. Oh, he's got to go, you know, and get to remove stuff like that. But overall, it's, you know, I probably spend two to three hours a day moderating Reddit, probably, you know, 20 hours a week, it goes up and down, especially when the fall hunter comes. Oh, man, the fall hunt season, you know, takes a couple extra hours, but it's certainly no full time job and it's certainly one that, you know, I'm doing passively. I'm checking my phone, you know, before a meeting starts from in the hallway, I get to my desk and I see like Oh, you know, my toolboxes said, Hey 10 people reported this post once you go take a look at it and stuff like that. So it's, you know, it's certainly, it's a lot of work, but it's work I enjoy doing because I would already be on the subreddit anyways, so I may as well give back and help make it a better place. So that way other people come and find it like, Oh, you know, this is a cool place. I'm going to stick around. 54:18 Alright, so you intrigued me talk about fall like it because I guess I haven't been paying attention to it and fall so what's what's the bad news that happens there? What's the the influx of post like, 54:30 oh, man, so if there was a meme to describe it, it would definitely be that Game of Thrones meme. And it would say that Pepe is coming. And it starts like early August and like, because like, first off like we see the labels, so you know, like, who, who, you know, next round of Pappy it's been approved or the next round of antique collection. And then like early September, everyone and their mother who has a blog that has more than a few followers gets their

This week, I get to interview a parlourful of talent! I think these are the first co-hosts I've met with their own IMDB pages. Well, I have one also, but it stands for "Ill-Mannered Dull Boy." This was an interview that literally came out of the blue, and I'm really glad that I didn't pass it up. I was simply amazed, loving the style of their podcast, but then I came to learn how their collective talents created it. I have to learn how to dress like Maxwell. Or Jennifer. But I may have to wax my legs. Alot! Like I'm the grounds crew at a football stadium. And oddly enough, I kid you not, the interview on the paranormal ended with a black cat walking across their keyboard and disconnecting our video. (Do you think I can hire that cat to do my social media?) I'm sure the interview would have continued if it weren't for those meddling teenagers! (Or if I had better internet. Either one of those things.) Jennifer and Maxwell's info: Podcast/YouTube : The Odd Tonic; Website:https://www.oddtonicsociety.com/; Facebook, Twitter, Instagram- @OddTonicSociety; Email -theparlour@oddtonicsociety.com Jennifer's IMDB link:https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1831565/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_3 Maxwell's IMDB link:https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1566011/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 Odd Tonic Recommends: Shabam!, Mysterious Universe Sherpa Suggestions: The Odd Tonic; Walking the Shadowlands; Paranormal Podcast Lore; Weird Darkness That's it for The Sherpa Sheet this week. Hope you enjoyed the show! Don't forget to check out the "Happy Sherpa Holidays" playlist on Spotify, and our sneak preview episode on "The Expert Factory" podcast. It's an episode about shopping apps. Save some money! #VivaLaSherpalution! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/jim-the-podcast-sherpa/message

Abby Cheesman from Skill Scout discusses tips and tactics for creating video that attracts the talent you seek. Transcript Chris Russell: Leveraging video to attract talent. That's next, on the RecTech Podcast. Speaker 2: Welcome to RecTech, the podcast where recruiting and technology intersect. Each month you'll hear from vendors shaping the recruiting world along with recruiters who will tell you how they use technology to hire talent. Now here's your host, the mad scientist of online recruiting, Chris Russell. Chris Russell: Hey everyone. Welcome to the only podcast at the intersection of recruiting and technology. I'm your host, Chris Russell. Our show of course is sponsored by our friends at emissary.ai, the text recruiting platform. Head over to emissary.ai. Click on the Book a Demo and self schedule yourself a quick 30 minute demo with the team. Matt, Brendan, and Euan. And learn more about how text recruiting can really speed up and make your recruiting process much more efficient overall. So it's really great technology, overlays onto your ATS, and lets you do one-on-one campaigns. Lets you do group campaigns out there. Short codes for events. A lot of great stuff there around text recruiting. And if you're not texting and recruiting today, then you're not basically becoming a modern recruiter overall. Chris Russell: And of course we're sponsored also by workhere.com, the hyper-local [inaudible 00:01:20] delivery tool. WorkHere's geofencing ad platform will help you pinpoint your best to match talent. They attract passive [inaudible 00:01:29] with enticing targeted mobile ads where they live, work, and shop. So head over to workhere.com. Be sure to tell them you heard it on the podcast, and get a demo from them as well. Really good job advertising technology that you really probably haven't tried yet. So we'll give them a shot. People like FedEx use them, Uber, Great Clips. Carvana uses them. So check them out at workhere.com. Chris Russell: All right, quick shout out to one of my listeners, [Norm Fleming 00:01:59] messaged me on LinkedIn this week. He's an IT recruiter out there in Waukee, Iowa. So hello Norm, thanks for listening. And glad you're on board. Tell your friends to check out the show as well. Chris Russell: All right, so today you're going to hear Abby Cheesman from my friends over at Skill Scout, the video job company. They'll come to your place of work. They'll interview your employees and create great two minute videos out there for your employer rank purposes. Anyway, she's going to talk today about how to leverage video properly. And this was audio from I took out of the recent webinar they did or rectechlive.com if you want to go see that. I extracted the audio, cleaned it up a bit, and put it into the podcast here. So she's got a lot of great tips and tactics around how to make your video stand out overall. So really good stuff here, lot of good takeaways. So hope you enjoy the audio, and I'll see you next time. Chris Russell: All right, good afternoon everyone. How's everyone doing today? You got a last show of the year for RecTech Live, and I got my pal Abby Cheesman here from Skill Scout in Chicago. Say hello Abby. Abby Cheesman: Hey guys. Chris Russell: All right, we're going to talk about using video to attract talent today, and she's got some great slides to show us. I've seen this presentation earlier this year and thought it was great. So I wanted to have her on and talk about video. We haven't really done that yet much on the show overall. So you are the co-founder or CFO of Skill Scout, a company based in Chicago, which does employer videos. Give us a quick history of the company and a little bit more about what you guys do. Abby Cheesman: Yeah. So maybe about six years ago, Elena, my co-founder and I, we were working at a consulting firm. And we got put on a project of how do we more meaningfully connect people to employment. So we talked to a bunch of job seekers, bunch of companies, and we heard something over and over. It's really hard to know what a job is all about until you've done it before. Abby Cheesman: So long story short, we started filming behind the scenes. What is it like to be a welder? What is it like to be a nurse? And from there, we really just got started with Skill Scout. Abby Cheesman: So we take a research approach to filming. So typically if you're going to film something, you come as a script. And this is what we're going to talk about. With Skill Scout, we treat it like discoveries. So I want to learn as I'm filming with you. I want to hear from the people in the position to know what it's all about filming. So we come in, we have a discussion guide. Film days are usually super fun. So we go in, we learn about a workplace from the people that are in the jobs. So we know what we might capture, but typically we open it up for discovery. Chris Russell: Let's get to the slides and tell everyone about what we're going to learn about today. Abby Cheesman: So today I'm going to walk you through some tips and tricks, with the idea being that you could go back to your workplace on Monday and/or tomorrow if you're a real go getter. And start filming your jobs. You don't need a huge budget. You don't need a film crew. You can start filming with your phone. So I'm going to share some examples. I'm going to share some real tactical ways that you can get started. Chris Russell: Fire up your slides and we'll get rolling here. If the [inaudible 00:05:31] has questions, just throw them in the chat there and I'll stop Abby and ask her. And Abby over to you. Abby Cheesman: Sassy title, your job post is as boring as this webinar. I'm only kidding. This webinar's not going to be boring. So Chris gave me a great introduction. My name is Abby. I'm a job nerd. I get to film jobs for a living, so I get to see what it's like to be a flight attendant, to work on planes, to be a nurse, to work at the department of corrections. Abby Cheesman: I have an awesome team based in Chicago. We have a real intentional strategy to provide opportunities for women in the filmmaking industry. Particularly women of color. And one of the things that Elena, my co-founder, she's the one on the end there. We've been really intentional about women of color because our industry is typically super male and super white. And we believe that if you change the story by changing the storyteller. So you're able to share a little bit more diversity in the stories that you tell if you have a diverse team that's working with it. Chris Russell: I love the job nerd title, by the way. Abby Cheesman: I wish I could put that in business cards. I love it. So we've been able to tell stories for some of the biggest brands. I never thought I'd be filming with Unilever, and Nike, and McDonald's. And one of the things that our clients have in common is that it's really hard to tell people what your jobs are all about, and give an authentic preview. Abby Cheesman: So I want to pause and give a moment of reflection for all of you guys who are watching. When was the moment that you knew you were in the right place for your job? Chris, you and I talked about this very briefly before we began about being an entrepreneur, working for yourself. But reflect on this question and we're going to come back to this. When was the moment that you knew you were in the right place? Chris Russell: Probably I got some kind of thank you from a client or a listener of my podcast maybe. And that feedback really meant a lot to me. Abby Cheesman: Yeah. Mine was when I was standing in that jet engine at American Airlines filming what it's like to maintain and keep those aircraft safe. Just the surreality of being able to show jobs that nobody else has access to. That was my moment. Abby Cheesman: But let's talk a little bit about the hiring process. So the hiring process is a little bit like packing one more bullet point on that job post. Fitting into skinny jeans, this candidate's a great fit. Or your Facebook profile. Job looks great. Here's what it is. But this is what it looks like for most people. Right? This is an astounding data point. This is 2019. Only 1% of job posts have visuals. This is still a true statistic. Chris Russell: Yeah. I've been after employers to at least add a picture in there of something, of a person doing the job or some kind of visual image. Because it's a visual web, and people want to see rather than read. Abby Cheesman: Yeah. And that's including pictures, which is the crazy part. Because pictures cost nearly nothing to produce. And along all of this, we have about the attention span of a goldfish. This is true for any adult with a fully developed cognitive brain. You have about eight seconds to capture our attention, the same as a goldfish. Abby Cheesman: So if we think about trying to attract talent to our brand, these are the people, the go getters, the activists that we want. Eight seconds is not very long. Abby Cheesman: I want to talk a little bit about the laws of attraction. So I have a psychology background. Brain science is fascinating to me. So this is a couple of studies that Elena and I have looked into. So just get an understanding of what the next generation of talent, Gen Z that's coming into the workforce now looks like. And I think if we design solutions that appeal to the modern job seeker, even if we're focusing on Gen Z, these are going to be human centered principles that any job seeker can appreciate. Abby Cheesman: So a couple of things that we know. 98% own smart phones. 85% report that they learn about new products and services on social media. This one is crazy, and I can attest to it just on an anecdotal level. 71% are watching more than three hours of video every day. So I have a seven year old and a four year old, and YouTube is life man. Just anything that you could explore is on YouTube. Abby Cheesman: But three hours a day, that's taking out of TV time. 50% are part of a minority ethnicity by 2020. So diversity stories and representation matter to the youngest job seekers. But everybody in the workforce. So just keep these laws of attraction in mind as we start talking about video. Abby Cheesman: Social platforms, we're spending a lot of time on our phone. We talked about three hours of video a day. 70% of that is happening on YouTube. So people report YouTube as the app of the generation. We're receiving about 3,000 text messages a month. Most people prefer prefer Instagram and Snapchat over Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. So this stat is always super interesting as we think about marketing spends. I would say as a business owner, Facebook is one of the first places that I think about advertising. And when it comes to talent, LinkedIn is another that comes to mind. But when we talk to younger job seekers, Instagram and Snapchat is where it's at. Tick tock, keep your eye on that one. That one's up and coming. And I think while it might not have ties to recruiting right now, I think that's going to be a medium that's more and more popular where job seekers are. Abby Cheesman: So there are some rules to being a good participant on social media. Keep your content short and sweet. Spice it up with visuals. Video is even better than photos, but any kind of visual. Highlight global locales and background. So representation of the different people that make up your workforce. Showcase how you impact the world. So what are you doing as a company and what is your spot in the world, and who do you impact? That's a really important story. Abby Cheesman: And then leverage the right social media and communication platform for your business. So we work with companies that are hiring welders. That might not be on LinkedIn, but they certainly are on Snapchat, and Instagram, and Facebook. So knowing enough about your industry, you guys probably know the channels to reach your people. Abby Cheesman: So remember when I asked this question? We talked a little bit about remembering the moment. You guys have stories, each one of the stories that you would tell yourself in your head, that has heart. Those are the kinds of things that job seekers are interested in hearing. And, those stories translate very beautifully to recruiting on video. Abby Cheesman: So a little data about job videos. A job posting with a video is viewed three times longer than a posting without. We use about 85% of our brain power to process visuals. So that's not text on page. That is a visual that is lighting up different parts of your brain than when you're reading. And, you get about 46% more views with a posting that has a video. And as I mentioned, psychology background. So this data point always sticks with me. We recall about 65% of what we see in here and only 15% of what we read. So if the only way that a job is interacting with your post is by reading bullet points, no matter how well written, they're still only going to remember about 15%. Abby Cheesman: So video over streaming webinars is notoriously sketchy. So, I shared a couple of links in the chat. But I want to tell you a little story about SAC Wireless. So this is a company that came to us in partnership with Shaker Recruitment Marketing. They were working on a challenge. They're hiring tower climbers. So these are the people that are building the infrastructure of 5G in our country. And they can't build towers fast enough to launch 5G. So this is an in demand kind of position. SAC was spending millions of dollars on agency recruiters, and they weren't getting the talent that would stay. And they discovered as part of their exit interviews, is that people didn't understand until they got to a tower how high up it is. So a very simple and very low hanging fruit piece of content for them was a video that shows people climbing the towers. Abby Cheesman: So we produced this video, and you guys can go check it out after the webinar. But it's a one and a half minute piece of people who work on a tower climbing team, talking about what it was like looking up at that tower. The safety and training that's required. What it feels like to work with a crew and travel with them, and ride in the same truck. Abby Cheesman: So they launched this video on Facebook. So this was a native post, which is what I recommend doing with posts on Facebook. So instead of linking to Vimeo or YouTube, upload it directly to Facebook, which is what they did. And they got this incredible response that they never expected. People started sharing the crap out of this video. So they had over 100,000 views in the first couple of weeks, and what they noticed was that their team was sharing it out. Wives were sharing, "Hey, check out what my husband does." And it became this organic piece of content that people were excited to show others. And it was one of their best performing pieces of content to get people into the funnel, applying for the job, and hired. Abby Cheesman: So this one video translated to the savings of millions of dollars for SAC Wireless, and it was part of a larger campaign. But this piece of content really jump-started employee referrals, advertising. And, it solved the problem of people not knowing that towers were 1,200 feet tall until they got to the job. Chris Russell: 1,200 feet? Abby Cheesman: Yes. When I watched that video, I still get heart palpitations. I was there when we filmed it. I would make a terrible tower climber. But for the right person, they see that and they're like, "Yep, I can build that." Chris Russell: Yep. Was this [inaudible 00:16:32] the candidates coming in from the video? Talk a little about how they might've- Abby Cheesman: Yes, they had some infrastructure behind that Facebook post. So they did do some lightweight tracking, and the Facebook post was their best channel that led to actual hires. And I think there were a few reasons for this. One, the video is just great. It's shared by people in the industry. And tower climbers tend to all work in pods, and so a lot of them know each other. It's kind of a small world. So that was a place that got eyeballs on content, maybe better than on LinkedIn or other channels. So that was part of it. Abby Cheesman: And then they linked directly to the application. So there wasn't like a link to a careers page and then I have to go find the job, and this and that. You could go directly from seeing this video to going into the application. So I think that was a win. But there's certainly more data. And Crystal Stanfield, she's since moved on from SAC, but she speaks at a lot of events. I would encourage you to go see her. She breaks down exactly how much money they saved, and how they did it and the rest of the ecosystem. Which included things like micro sites and using content and other channels. Chris Russell: I looked, and the video's about two minutes, 20 seconds. Correct? Abby Cheesman: Two minutes, 20 seconds. Yeah. And that's a little long, and I think the content is interesting and so it lends itself to be a couple seconds longer than I'd recommend. But typically we're looking to one to two minutes. Chris Russell: Yep. Abby Cheesman: So how'd they do it? This is what it could like to film a job video, right? You got 12 people on set, you got a grip. It could also look like this. For SAC, we did film a cameras and flew a drone just to get to the height and safely capture the position. But this is also what it can look like to film a job video. A cell phone, a tripod, a microphone, and two people talking. Abby Cheesman: So every single one of us has a cell phone. Every single one of our cell phones, if purchased in the last five to seven years, has a powerful camera on it. There are a few things that you need to make your camera even more powerful. So we package this up, but I can also share a link after this session to exactly what you need. Abby Cheesman: One is a tripod to keep your phone stable while you're filming. The second is a microphone. So phones are set up to capture audio as you're holding it up to your head. So capturing across the room can be tricky. And with a microphone, you can capture beautiful audio. And it's less than $25. And then a handheld tripod so that you can take nice, smooth pans. And with these three core things, you can really take your footage from being amateur quality to pretty high quality. Abby Cheesman: But let's start at the beginning. So one of the things that we found as we've talked to companies is that you have to be in the right moment to be sharing video. You can't put lipstick on a pig. What you are is what is going to appear on video. So I think most companies probably are ready for video, but we put together a little quiz so that you could do a little self reflection of is this a place that you really feel passionate about recruiting people for? And what are some of the stories that compel people to want to work with you? So it's just a self-reflection to see if video is a tool that you're ready for in your toolkit. Abby Cheesman: So if you take that quiz, you feel good, you would recommend it as a place to work. Here's some of the ingredients for a great job video. Be specific. So for the tower climber, we picked a specific role. SAC was hiring many roles, but that role was specific enough that we needed to go film it separately. Keep it real. We talked about the fear of heights. We talked about how hard the position is, that you're working in weather conditions. Two minutes tops. As Chris pointed out, we broke that rule. But two minutes is typically the sweet spot of how long candidates are going to give you. And show, don't tell. So while we might conduct the interviews in a quiet spot with good audio and good lighting, we want to see more than we want to see a talking head. So we want to go and see the work environment. Abby Cheesman: A little bit more about being specific. One video that I recommend to people is creating a realistic job preview. There's all kinds of content that you can create about your company. If you've not done video before, realistic job preview's a great place to start. So you can start thinking about one job that might be high volume or high turnover, an area of concentration for you. Talk to one to two people who are in the job, who are actually working in that role. Abby Cheesman: And then keep it real. So as I mentioned at the beginning, we take an ethnographic research mindset. So come in as a researcher. You might think you know what the job is on paper, but be prepared to discover and be open to what you see. You want to capture productivity. Don't stop it. Don't use a script. Use an interview guide. And remember that employees are the expert of their experience. So again, there's always the job description and then there's the, "Okay hey, this is how it really works." Those are the things that you're looking for. Abby Cheesman: Most importantly, show the stuff that makes people quit. This view here is why I would quit on my first day as a tower climber. You want to show people that. If there are things about your work environment. We have one client that it's an armored car service that all of the employees are armed. And for some people, that would be a deal breaker. And you don't want them to discover that deal breaker in their training or their first 90 days. That should come this early in the process as possible so people can self select in or self select out. Abby Cheesman: Two minutes tops. I checked our data today. We have a whole bunch of job videos that are live through our accounts. And I think the stat today was one minute and 49 seconds on average that people will watch. But it's less than two minutes. So giving people the top two to three things that are most important to share about the job, and spending about 30 seconds on each one of those is a good framework. Chris Russell: Excellent. Abby Cheesman: Show, don't tell. So you want to minimize talking heads, you want to show the work environment. One question I get a lot is, "What if we're in a boring office?" That's a great question. You're in a boring office, show the boring office, but also show the impact of your work. So if you're working in banking, you should certainly show inside of the branch of what are your banks. But maybe also go out to the community and showcase some of the things that you're doing in the community. Whether that's financial literacy training or other impact that you have. Abby Cheesman: Another example of this is in manufacturing. So while we might capture footage inside of the plant, we also want to go see what those products do in people's lives because that's important to candidates. So if you're building a medical device that helps give people allergy medicine faster and saves lives, that's an important part of the story to tell visually. So there are ways that you can depict the boring office. You should be realistic about that. If they're going to work in a boring office, show it. But also show the impact and how people stay committed to the work. Chris Russell: I'll also say too, you can show your employees in action outside the office too. Maybe if you're having a dinner or happy hour or something like that. Abby Cheesman: Oh absolutely. Events, anything that the team members are getting together after work. Anything that you can show to give people a flavor of what the experience is like working with you. That's the stuff you want to film. Chris Russell: Yup. Abby Cheesman: Teamwork makes the dream work. So, I've got a couple of clips and they're of course not going to play nicely over the stream. But, using employee generated clips is one of the easiest ways that you can capture content. Giving people a quick direction of, "Hey, can you take some footage across your work environment this morning?" And give them some ideas of what they could shoot. You will quickly get tons of different perspectives of your workplace from the eyes of the people who work in the jobs. Abby Cheesman: So employee generated content. Opening filming up to anybody who is willing to contribute is a really easy, fast way to get video. So this is one that we did in that armored car company. Here's another one. This job is a raw video clip of transportation assistance. No, what it really is, is driving really expensive custom order cars off of the boat at the Port of Baltimore. And this is a really different kind of job than what you would think on paper. So just getting a couple of employee generated clips showing the car, hearing the sound of the engine rev. Gives people a much more tangible feel for the job. Abby Cheesman: So we didn't watch the videos, but I do like to pose the questions, what did you notice about any of the visuals that we showed about that work environment? It was real. Yeah. And you can see that working with that armored car service is very different than the transportation assistant, is very different than the tower climber. Just the quick visual. You will remember that better, 65% more. And you'll be able to relate back to it, to that visual experience of watching that video. When you go to get the recruiter phone call or apply for the position. Chris Russell: Abby, question. When you go to your clients and you first talk to them, do you kind of look and see if their employees are already sharing stuff on social media they might not know about? Abby Cheesman: That is a great question. Yes. A lot of our clients actually have hashtags or employee generated groups. So Nike for example, has swoosh life. And that's customers and employees sharing experience alike. So sourcing stuff that people are already sharing about your brand is a great way to just kind of do an analysis of what's out there about us. And oftentimes, it's a great way to identify people who are already filming stuff and would be more than happy to be an ambassador or contribute their footage to your project. But that's a wonderful question. Abby Cheesman: And if you don't have that yet, you will also notice the people who are super active on social media. Those are the people that are top of my list for the people that I want to enlist in filming. If somebody is super comfortable sharing cat videos or kid videos, those are the people that are going to be excited about filming their workplace. Abby Cheesman: So we talked a little bit about what you need. Tripod, microphone, handheld tripod, and a lens cleaner. Phones are filthy. Cleaning them off makes the video much crispier. Abby Cheesman: Capturing quality video, audio is unforgivable. So earlier when we first started the echo, I was speaking super slowly because I was listening to myself. Audio can be super distracting, right? So you can forgive bad video to some extent. You cannot forgive bad audio. It's extremely distracting to the brain if there's something crackly or something that you can't quite hear the person speaking. So audio first, always use a microphone. Abby Cheesman: Second is lighting. The sun is your friend. Camera phones are super sensitive to light, and they're trying and trying to get better. But the more that you can utilize natural outdoor lighting, so sitting by a window. Or generate your own lighting. Get a halo light that cost 40 bucks on Amazon. Lighting is going to take your quality from super amateur to much more professional lifting. And it'll actually capture the 1080 or 4K level of quality. Without good lighting, your phone can't capture that resolution. Abby Cheesman: Film horizontally. This is always controversial and I'm constantly reevaluating this. But for now, phones capture higher resolution if you hold them horizontally. We see more mediums come up like Instagram, Snapchat, where vertical is how people are capturing and sharing. So I think we need to keep an eye on this. But the most important thing is keeping it consistent. So if you're going to edit clips together, you want them either to all be horizontal or all be vertical. Abby Cheesman: And lastly, heart. So letting people show who they really are. Not being too corporatey or too prescriptive. And show the nerdiness. Like I'm a job nerd. I'm happy saying that. You have nerds at your company too, and you want to show that flare. So if you've got engineers that geek out about something, capture the heart and the spirit of why they're excited to work with you and that will be super attractive to other people who nerd out in that way. Abby Cheesman: We've got a ton of tutorials on our site that just show you how to set up your audio. Some of the technical mistakes we made early in the first couple of years filming on phones. We've made a tutorial for everything so that you can capture the best quality possible in your phone. Lighting. How to film B-roll. So let's talk a little B-roll. Chris Russell: Yeah, explain B-roll to the audience. Abby Cheesman: Yeah. So when we think about the ingredients of a job video, the first is an interview. You want to talk to somebody on camera about their experience working. The second piece is all the visual footage. So we said minimize talking heads. The interview is a talking head. You want to go out and capture a visual B-roll of everything that they talked about. So if a nurse is talking about checking vitals. In your mind, you should be making a note of take some B-roll of checking vitals, take some B-roll of filling out patient paperwork. The B-roll is all of the beautiful video footage that goes on top of the interview so that we can see what the person is talking about. Abby Cheesman: I also shared in the chat an example of a recruiting video we did recently for Wendy's. And you can see how we used their values on top of what people were saying to really tie their story together. Abby Cheesman: So here's how we captured that video. We used this exact list of questions. "Tell me who you are, where we're at today. What do you do here? Walk me through a typical day." And when people walk you through a typical day, they gloss over and they move quickly because they assume you know what they're talking about. So sometimes I say, "Be detailed. Pretend I'm your 12 year old niece and I have no idea what you do." And usually when people speak with that filter, that brings them to a level that's tangible and shareable outside of your organization. But all of us do this when we're talking about our work. We might get super technical, jargony. So just encourage them to talk to you as if this is the first time you're hearing about this. Abby Cheesman: What surprised you when you started this job? What's challenging? Being real about that? What's the best part about working here? What's your favorite memory from working here? And what advice would you have for somebody that is just joining your team? Abby Cheesman: I would add that question from the beginning when we talked about< "When was the moment you knew you were in the right place?" The reason I like this question, Chris, you told a story. I told a story. I didn't just say the people are great. The culture is great. What you don't want is general speak. You want to hear people's stories. "Well, tell me a time where you really felt like your team was great." And then those stories are what tell beautiful recruiting stories. Abby Cheesman: This is some ideas for B-roll. So hands working, work in action, the work environment, conference rooms, common areas. Two to three main tasks of the position. Team interaction. And for those boring officey jobs, impact. What's happening outside of the office as a result of the work that you're doing inside of the office? All right, a moment to reflect. Anybody has any questions so far? Chris Russell: Nothing yet in the chat. But if you do, feel free to throw them in there. And I'll ask Abby. Abby, question for you is, what's been the in terms of your client base, what's been the most interesting piece of feedback you've gotten from after doing a video like this? What stands out to you? Abby Cheesman: That's a great question. So often we get this feedback, and I always love hearing it. Is that recruiters who've been recruiting for this role for years learn something new about the experience of working in that job. So you can recruit for a warehouse position in a refrigerated facility. But until you've put your coat on and gone 40 degrees below zero, it's really hard to have empathy in a tangible way for what that is like. And a lot of recruiters go back to their work with that experience. So filming is this discovery for them, and this opportunity to engage with the job in a way that they don't normally get. Abby Cheesman: So people often really enjoy filming. It might seem stressful for the first time that you do it. But the feedback overwhelmingly that I love getting that we get a lot. "I didn't know how much fun it was going to be. I didn't realize how much I was going to learn about this job. I've been recruiting for it for 20 years." Right? We went through burning questions. I'm going to share some questions I get a lot. Abby Cheesman: Oh no, our trade secrets. Right? We work in a proprietary industry, right? I work in space and engineering a product that's top secret. That's okay. It's not just about what you make. It's about why it matters. It's your passion, projects, celebrations and your team coming together, training. So you don't focus on proprietary processes. Obviously you don't want to sell out your secrets and tank the business. But you do want to show what the employee experience is based on that position. Abby Cheesman: So avoid things as you're filming, like specs on a drawing. Any kind of measurements. In manufacturing, any kind of specific code or processes. You don't want to capture that stuff. Abby Cheesman: Privacy. This might look familiar to you, Chris. What about privacy? So we filmed in one of the more challenging work environments that we've filmed in a couple of weeks ago. We were in Connecticut. We were filming with the department of corrections who they're working on recruiting physicians to work in facilities. So there's two challenges to work through. One is HIPAA, right? We can't share patients on camera. And the second is we can't show inmates on camera. So a really easy workaround that have worked with our corrections positions in other states and areas, and our healthcare. Has been using stand-ins. So if you have someone else on the team that will play the role of patient or play the role of customer. Or any other sensitive role in your video, that will allow you to capture it. You'll get them to sign a media release and you'll have permission to share their footage. But you're not releasing anything about your customers, or your patients, or people that are of a sensitive. Abby Cheesman: And stand-ins allow you to still show bits of the job that are important. So showing the exam, taking vitals. That's a huge part of this role. So to remove it from the video altogether wouldn't have done it justice. So stand-ins on a volunteer basis is something that we've had a ton of success with. Chris Russell: Okay, great. Abby Cheesman: Another question, compliance is life. We work in the aviation industry, so we have filmed a ton of compliant driven and union driven work environments. And my advice for that is to have somebody who is a union steward. If you're a union shop or a union environment. And, a safety and compliance person film with you. So you have them right alongside for the journey. They can tell you what is and is not shareable on camera. Abby Cheesman: So while you probably all have compliant workplaces, there are times when things are done that are maybe questionable and not exactly up to policy, but a workaround. And just having those people in field with you as you're capturing content gets them on your side. They're part of the process, they're an engaged stakeholder. And, it prevents you from capturing anything that's not showing you in your best light. So getting them involved early and planning, and come along for filming. That's been successful also. Abby Cheesman: I'm broke baby. I ain't got no money. This is another question I get. You don't need $100,000 or even $1,000 to make your first video. You can do this for free. Abby Cheesman: So to do this for free, let's talk a little bit about editing. This is one of the biggest questions people have. There are a few options. You can do it in one take. I filmed a video earlier this morning for an internal team thing. I did it in one take, no editing required. Abby Cheesman: iMovie, Windows Movie Maker. Those are both low cost or free depending on your computer. And easy editing programs that you can pull in the interview, the B-roll, and some music to go along with that. Abby Cheesman: FiLMiC pro is an app on, it's available for iPhone and I believe Android. It's about 20 bucks. And you can actually edit video on your phone. I'll mention that iMovie is also available on iPhone and- Chris Russell: I use that one. Abby Cheesman: You use that one? Yeah. What's your experience been? Chris Russell: It's okay. You can just trim the clip, you can add some overlays of text on there and stuff like that. Abby Cheesman: Yeah, I find my phone to be a little small to edit on. So I'm a huge fan of popping everything over to my laptop and throw it in iMovie. But my daughter will edit in iMovie on her iPad. So depending on how big your fingers are, I guess. Mine are too fat for the phone, but FiLMiC pro is an awesome app. Abby Cheesman: And then are editing services. So this is something full disclosure that Skill Scout does. But there are other options or interns you can come and get to come in and help film, and edit your video. We see a lot of our companies engaging interns in this process. Not just because of digital natives and awesome at it, but also they have a fresh perspective of your company. So having them film, you often get things that you might not, or things that you didn't think about filming that's been interesting. Abby Cheesman: This is how you put it together. It's like a cake. Layer one is the interview. Layer two is the music. Layer three is the B-roll. So I just took a screenshot of what it looks like in iMovie. So you can see the green thing at the bottom. That's my music track. There are lots of libraries. You have to be careful when you're adding a music track that you own license. So if it's creative commons, that's something that can be shared anywhere as long as you credit that person. There are other libraries where you can purchase a song. Don't use a song off the radio or off of a pop singer. Don't use a recognizable track, because that will quickly get flagged on social media. And you don't have permission to use it, unless you pay us thousands of dollars to whoever made it. Abby Cheesman: So find a royalty free or creative commons music track. And then this middle piece is my main content. So this would be my interview. And then the little piece on top is B-roll. So you can add clips at different moments in your interview to depict what the person is saying. Abby Cheesman: So once you've edited, how do you use this? One very easy place is on the job posting itself. So on our job post, we have a video about what it's like to be an editor at Skill Scout. And then we ask them what stands out in the video. So not only do we know that they've watched the video, but they can talk about things that are the same or different from their other work experience. And we get really rich data about the candidates in that question. On the job post is a really great way to use it. Chris Russell: That should be the top of the job post too, right? Abby Cheesman: It should be at the very top. Yeah. Or depending on how your micro site is laid out, if you have a specific page for a job, it could be one of a couple of pieces of content. But yes, prominently featured. So if they're going to watch one thing, it's that. Chris Russell: Right. Abby Cheesman: Employee referrals. This is way better than sending out an email saying, "Hey, we're hiring." Giving people a piece of content that they can send to their friends to get a much richer information about the job. That's a great way to use video. You saw this with SAC Wireless, putting it on Facebook. Abby Cheesman: We see a lot of companies using video to onboard people into their hiring process. So as you can imagine, getting hired as a flight attendant, it's a process. So we just did a series with American Airlines giving people an idea of what this process looks like. And it gives candidates more human centered experience as they're going through what can be a difficult to understand and kind of long process. So using videos at different moments in your hiring process to be more human, to connect with them on a more human level. We see a lot of companies doing this. Abby Cheesman: In your recruiting outreach. So maybe somebody's applied, and you want to send them a little video with a little bit more information. Or you want to send them a video of the person that's going to be interviewing them to prepare them for the interview. There are lots of ways that you can use video in your email communications. Abby Cheesman: One tool that I find super helpful is called Loom. Use loom.com. And it basically allows you to film, you have to use a Chrome browser. But it allows you to film and then embed that video into an email. And the video comes across as a gif. So as somebody opens the email, this picture starts moving and they can see immediately that it's a video. They click on it, and they can watch it right in the email. It doesn't pop them out to another site. It just is right inside the email. And that's a free tool that's super helpful. Chris Russell: It's free? Abby Cheesman: It's free. There might be a cap on how many you can send. But I send a whole lot of them and I haven't paid for yet. Don't tell them. They might start charging me now. It's called useloom.com. L-O-O-M. Chris Russell: Throw it in the chat there. Thanks Abby. Abby Cheesman: Yeah, thanks. A word about audio. Silent is the new black. Data coming back day to day. It's getting more and more dire that people are not listening to the videos. 70% of mobile traffic is video, and 85% of that is viewed with no sound. I am guilty, right? We watch video in places that we're on the train. We're commuting, we're at home, we're cooking dinner. And we don't necessarily want to listen to it, but we do want to watch. Abby Cheesman: So how can we design around a good user experience? The easiest way is captions. Captions aren't just great because it makes it better for the person watching, but also it generates text-based information about that video that's used in SEO. So if you have a caption file in with your video, that content will help you appear higher in the algorithm. So captions are great. You can auto-generate them in YouTube to mixed success. I've also used this service that I absolutely love called Rev. Rev is a paid service that you can share video, either upload or through YouTube or Vimeo. And it will generate captions. It's a real person typing it. So it's way more accurate than the YouTube captions. Abby Cheesman: You can also translate. So we do this with a lot of our clients that have international offices. Where we might film in English, but it's helpful to be able to share it in Chinese or in Spanish, or another language. Rev has translations available, which has been really helpful. Chris Russell: I have an app Abby called, it's called Clipomatic. You do your video, it records the audio, it transcribes the audio within the app. And then you can go back and you actually, it'll show you the transcript of it. You can go back, correct certain words that didn't quite pick up on. You can publish it as a single file out there with the subtitles. Abby Cheesman: That's awesome. And subtitles are not just important for posting on video sites, but also social media. So being able to generate that SRT. I have a whole blog post about much to do about captions, because it's gotten complicated. And it's much better from a user standpoint, but the infrastructure of how do you that has gotten a little bit trickier. But that's awesome. I'm going to have to check that out. Abby Cheesman: Texts call outs. I'm sure you guys have seen these videos before. Recipes where they label each piece. I actually didn't know until I started doing research that there was sound to these videos. There's actually a dude talking as this is going on. But you don't need it because they've labeled with text. This can be done in iMovie. It can be done in other editing programs that you just put labels on things. I could see you doing this with uniforms where there's pieces of a uniform for the flight attendants if they're getting new uniforms or something's happening with uniform, that's important to communicate. You can use a call out of just somebody standing there in uniform and talk about PPE, protective clothing, steel toe boots, different parts of the uniform that are important. Call outs are cool. We're going to see more of them. Abby Cheesman: And lastly, text narration. This is a beautiful video put out by the National Park Service. It's simple B-roll of a national park, and then they share messages just through text. And you can see a little green bar at the bottom of the screen. It also tells you how long the video is, which I thought was just a beautiful user experience. I'm super impatient, so knowing that I only have a little bit of that bar left, I watched the whole thing. So text on top of B-roll. That's a really easy thing to do in iMovie or other simple editing programs. And the footage that you have to capture for it is just B-roll. There's no audio, there's no people talking on camera. It's just footage of your workplace. All right, that wraps this up to final questions. Chris Russell: Yeah, we do have one more [inaudible 00:47:00] to get chance before. But Jasmine's asking, "How often should we update videos for the same position?" Abby Cheesman: That's a great question. So we see our companies updating them about every year, depending on the position. So it's going to be really dependent on how evergreen the tasks of the role are. So for example, nursing. That job is going to be relatively the same across a two to three years span. So that's a little bit more evergreen. Tech positions, their shelf life is just shorter if you go into the details of the actual tech stack that people are working with and that kind of thing. So if you want a video like that to last longer, talk a little bit less about the technology of today's moment. And talk a little bit more about the greater context of that job. Abby Cheesman: But I would say we encourage companies to put as much video out as possible. Even if that means Instagram stories, stuff that goes away really quickly. Just getting in the habit of sharing on video will make each video faster and easier to produce. So if your first video you keep for a year and then you update it and you get more and more comfortable with the filming process, we have some companies that weekly are putting out videos. Not all job videos, but certainly content that engages their job seeker audience. Abby Cheesman: And then of course if you're going through any kind of change in that role, video is a great opportunity to communicate that internally and externally. So we have a company that's going through a massive uniform change, and it impacts their employees. So they're making video pieces about the change, why the change is coming. Some of those are internal facing, and some of those are external facing. Chris Russell: You have a super fan in the chat there. Mary says after listening to your presentation at our HR meetings in Iowa, we bought the equipment and use it all the time. Appreciate the- Abby Cheesman: Yay. I remember you. That's awesome. That makes my day. Video does not have to be expensive. It does not have to be out of reach. I actually taught my college roommate how to make a video. She and her sister own a daycare, and I taught her how to film, how to do interviews, and she produced her own video too. So I think small and midsize businesses, this is perfect to get started. And as you grow and see more opportunity, you see a lot of companies getting the bug for video and then start to do onboarding, or training, or other ways to communicate through video. Yay Mary, good job. Chris Russell: Awesome. Well Abby, thank you very much for this very informative, and a lot of good stuff in this video. I'll have to go watch it again. Abby Cheesman: Yes. Thank you so much for having me. Chris Russell: Tell them where to connect with you and then Skill Scout. Abby Cheesman: Yeah. So as a participant in this webinar, I nerd out on this stuff. I'd be happy to do a free 20 minute video story boarding session. If you have any kind of questions about how video could work for you, I'm happy to chat with you. My email is abby@skillscout.me. You can get me on Twitter. I'm pretty easy to find. So get in contact. I love doing brainstorming sessions because there's probably not a challenge that we have not seen with one of our clients. So happy to chat through any questions you have. Speaker 2: Another episode of RecTech is in the books. Follow Chris on twitter @ChrisRussell, or visit rectechmedia.com. Where you can find the audio and links for this show on our blog. RecTech media helps keep employers and recruiters up to date through our podcasts, webinars, and articles. So be sure to check out our other sites, Recruiting Headlines and HR Podcasters to stay on top of recruiting industry trends. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you soon on the next episode of RecTech, the recruiting technology podcast.

The infamous how-to meets self-help meets memoir-with-a-dash-of-stunt genre. It may be awkwardly named, but we love it.This week’s guest didn’t realize she was laying the groundwork for her first book when she decided to write 50 thank you notes to the people, things and places that shaped her in honor of her 50th birthday—but of course she was When you can define a thing and the time frame and the reasons for doing it so clearly, what else can you do but inspire other people to do the same? But the road from I’m doing this thing to I’m publishing this book isn’t clear (although in this case it was lightning fast). This week, Nancy Davis Kho talks to us about what it took to make her book saleable, then write the damn thing and make it really really good.Episode links and a transcript follow—but first, did you catch the #WritersTopFive that popped into your inbox Monday? (And if it didn’t, HELLO, you need to subscribe to our free weekly #AmWriting emails!) That was just a little taste. We do those every week. I just scheduled Top Five Reference Books for All Novelists, and Three More for Special Occasions, and you don’t want to miss it. (You won’t believe the kinds of things that can be turned into an encyclopedias or dictionary.) We also recorded the first of many #MiniSupporter episodes that will slip right into the podcast feeds of #AmWriting supporters everywhere. Support the podcast you love AND get weekly #WriterTopFives with actionable advice you can use for just $7 a month. As always, this episode (and every episode) will appear for all subscribers in your usual podcast listening places, totally free as the #AmWriting Podcast has always been. This shownotes email is free, too, so please—forward it to a friend, and if you haven’t already, join our email list and be on top of it with the shownotes and a transcript every time there’s a new episode. LINKS FROM THE PODCASTAya deLeon, author of the Justice Hustlers series.#AmReading (Watching, Listening)Nancy: The Good Lord Bird, James McBrideJess: Sense and Sensibility, narrated by Kate WinsletKJ: What Should I Read Next—the podcast from Anne Bogel, aka the Modern Mrs Darcy. (I’m obsessed with it. I’ve found so many great new reads!)#FaveIndieBookstoreA Great Good Place for Books, OaklandOur guest for this episode is Nancy Davis Kho, author of The Thank You Project and host of the Midlife Mixtape podcast. Find the book, the podcast and all things Nancy HERE.This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work done. Check out their FREE (and epic) upcoming summit on the Business of Book Coaching if you’re intrigued, or visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwriting for details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)KJ:                                        00:02                    Hey there listeners, it's KJ. What with Jess starting in on a new project lately, we've been talking a lot about nonfiction and research. If that's your kind of work, our sponsor, Author Accelerator can help and you don't have to go all in with full on book coaching if you're not ready. Check out their new four week long nonfiction framework program that will help you nail down your structure before you start to write, or after your writing and realizing, dang, this thing needs a backbone. Authors of self-help, how-to, and academic texts will find the shape of their books, create a working one page summary that helps reveal that shape at a glance, and develop a flexible table of contents to guide you through the drafting and revision process. You can find a lot more, including previews of much of the material, by going to authoraccelerator.com/nonfictionframework. Is it recording?Jess:                                     00:02                    Now it's recording.KJ:                                        00:02                    Yay.Jess:                                     00:02                    Go ahead.KJ:                                        01:00                    This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I was supposed to be doing.Jess:                                     01:01                    Alright. Let's start over.KJ:                                        01:06                    Awkward pause, I'm going to rustle some papers. Now one, two, three. Hey, I am KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting the podcast about all things writing - nonfiction, fiction, book proposals, essays, not poetry. I made that joke a few weeks ago, but I just can't stop because I feel like it's not all the things. I am KJ Dell'Antonia, your rambling host, and this is the podcast about getting your work done.Jess:                                     01:45                    And I'm Jess Lahey. I'm the author of the Gift of Failure and a forthcoming book. It won't be till spring of 2021, a book on preventing substance abuse in kids and you can find me at the New York Times, and at the Atlantic, and at the Washington Post. And we have such a guest today. We have such a guest.KJ:                                        02:05                    I didn't really introduce myself.Jess:                                     02:06                    Go ahead, please go.KJ:                                        02:08                    I just introduced myself as your rambling host and I am so much more than that.Jess:                                     02:13                    You go, and then we'll let that weird person who no one even knows, we'll let her talk after. But KJ, you go first.KJ:                                        02:24                    I am KJ Dell'Antonia. I am the author of the novel The Chicken Sisters, which you can't buy yet, but you'll be able to next summer and believe me, you'll hear all about it. Also of How To Be a Happier Parent. I'm the former editor of the Motherlode blog at the New York Times, where I sometimes still contribute and I am working on novel number, whatever it is if you count the ones in the drawer and we don't know if it will be published, that's what I'm doing. So that's who I am and why you should (or should not) listen to me.Jess:                                     02:57                    We have a guest today who you should definitely listen to. Because she's hysterical, and wonderful, and funny, and has a book coming out that is fantastic and very near and dear to my heart. We are talking today to Nancy Davis Kho. She is a writer. She's written for Washington Post, San Francisco Chronicle, Adirondack Life, The Rumpus, all these various places. She's in an anthology called Listen To Your Mother: What She Said Then, What We're Saying Now. And Listen To Your Mother, by the way, is hysterical if you've never come across it before. Nancy has a fantastic book coming out this month that is, as I said, so near and dear to my heart because it's about thanking people. And so, thank you Nancy, for being on the podcast today.Nancy:                                03:41                    I pretty much wrote a book in order to be on your podcast, just so you know.Jess:                                     03:46                    Nancy has her own podcast, one of my very favorites. It's the Midlife Mixtape podcast and if you are not already listening, you should. Because it's wonderful, and fantastic, and it makes me very happy every single time I listen to it.Nancy:                                04:03                    You guys are so nice. Can I call you every morning, Jess, and just have you say, 'You matter.'Jess:                                     04:09                    I love this book, not only because thank you notes are really important part of not only my personal life but my professional life, but because I feel like KJ and I have had a personal stake in the project because we've gotten to hear about the process of you writing this book, and pitching this book, and how it all came about. So we usually like to start by talking sort of about how you got started writing, KJ often likes to ask what the first thing you got paid to write was, and we'll go from there.Nancy:                                04:44                    Oh wow, I'll have to think about the answer to that question. Thank you so much for having me on the show. And also you guys have been such tremendous cheerleaders and sources of real pragmatic information. I have listened to so many of your episodes and just scribble down as I'm going because this podcast is so invaluable in helping people as they're going into various, you know, the first time you're doing this, the first time you're doing that, you guys have had guests on who've talked about that. So it's such a great resource and I really am honored to be on the show.Jess:                                     05:20                    And you're going to have to listen to some of the publicity episodes - like the marketing and publicity episodes.Nancy:                                05:26                    Jess, am I brand new? I've already listened. I started listening to them a second time, please. The one where you guys were talking about your book launch plans. I listen to podcasts oftentimes when I'm hiking and I can picture the stretch of the Oakland Hills where I was, where KJ was talking about how many rows were in the spreadsheet and I was like, 'I can't do all of this. God.' But it was good.KJ:                                        05:53                    You're just lucky Jess didn't talk about how many rows in her spreadsheet.Jess:                                     05:58                    Tell us about how you got started.Nancy:                                06:02                    My background is in international business. I studied that in college. I got a couple of degrees in that, I picked up a husband in an international business program. So it all worked out. And I spent about 17 years doing that and I loved it. But whenever anybody would ask me, 'If you could do anything, what would you want to do?' I would say, 'Oh, I'd like to be a writer.' Here's my reason: it seems portable, I think I could do that from anywhere. That was my basic feeling about it. But I did always love writing. And you know, I've been an avid reader. All of us, right? Anybody listening to this show, we've all been reading since we were in short pants. And nothing like a 40th birthday to give you a bit of an identity crisis. And I thought, 'My God, I'm going to turn 40. And I tell people I want to be a writer. I've never tried. Maybe I should try writing. That would be a thing I could do.' So I took a class the summer before I turned 40 and by the time I finished (it was a class in creative memoir or I think it was just personal essays) and by the time I finished the class, I'd had two things published. And I was like, 'You know what? I love this.' I loved getting the byline and I just loved the process of writing. So that is now 13 years ago in the rear view mirror. And I thought at the time, as you do when you're a beginner at anything, I was like, 'Hmm, what's the hardest thing that I'm not qualified to do? I know I will write a novel of historical fiction that deals with race issues from the standpoint of a white woman. That's what the world needs now.' So I commenced to spending six years researching and writing a novel that is composting very nicely in a drawer. I can see which drawer in my office it is sitting in right now. And that was hard work. I told my husband, 'I'm a writer now, I'm going to quit my corporate job. Neglecting to factor in that I had two small kids who needed (we live in the Bay area, everybody needs to work) So it was a bumpy time - the writing I loved, the researching I loved, like the whole writing part of it was great. It was trying to figure out how to balance the lifestyle with that that was challenging. And also just realizing how much I had to learn as a writer. And I think one of the messages I try to put on the podcast all the time, so the Midlife Mixtape Podcast is about the years between being hip and breaking one. And I started it because I wanted there to be a counter narrative to midlife being a crisis because what I found was that it wasn't an identity crisis to become a writer. It was like I was adding something to myself. I was doing something that made me happy. And now it didn't work right out of the gate. I didn't publish a novel when I was 41, but I was challenging myself, and learning new stuff, and eventually I ended up going back to corporate work and doing that part time. And that's kind of been my gig ever since. I have a day job, I work in digital content licensing. I really like it, I have mastery at it, I've been doing it for years and years. And then I have this creative side where I can do the writing. So I think as a writer, I just feel like I've been pragmatic in terms of forgiving myself for not being successful right away. And so, I spent six years getting better and better and still not having a novel that needed to see the light of day. And then when I finished with that, I got frustrated and I had started the blog, Midlife Mixtape, and I realized that what felt very comfortable to me was humor writing. It came to me naturally. I'm the youngest of three in a family of very funny people and you really have to bring your A game all the time in my family. So, for me that was a much easier voice to write in. I always say my goal is to sound like Erma Bombeck meets David Sedaris, you know, not mean spirited but funny, and kind of poignant. And so after a little while writing in that voice on Midlife Mixtape, I thought, 'I know I'll write a book about my midlife music crisis.' And I wasn't really having a midlife music crisis, to be honest. What had happened is, I went to a concert and a bouncer said to me, 'Are you just here to drop off your kids?' I mean, I've been an avid concert goer since I was 14 and that shook me. So I was like, 'Oh, maybe I am too old to go to a Vampire Weekend concert. Maybe I should try to find more midlife appropriate music.' But the truth was, I still kept going to shows like that. I started going to the symphony, I started going to heavy metal shows, I was trying all different kinds of stuff. But I felt like I was manufacturing the arc of my story a little bit. And I think that always kind of stuck with me that I was telling a funny story people could relate to, this memoir that I spent only three years writing that one. So I doubled my speed from which I had written the historical fiction novel. But there was something about that story that never connected, even for me, because I just felt like, okay. As this one writing mentor of mine said, 'What, you wanted to go to a concert, you kept going to concerts. There's not a lot of character change here, you know. Any good memoir needs that needs that arc.' And so I got to see a lot of fun shows and I wrote about those on the blog. But that book also came closer to what I wanted to write, but it still wasn't quite the right thing. So that one went into a drawer and that was now I guess about three years ago, four years ago.Jess:                                     11:55                    Well, and I have to say you're definitely learning your lessons. Because all of the things you're criticizing about the early work that stayed in the drawer is like the antithesis of what I found when I opened The Thank You Project. So keep going with your story, but I just want to say that like all of these realizations, you're having, you know, the sort of there being no trajectory, there being no personal connection. Like that's what The Thank You Project is about from the very first page, a very personal project that came out of a very important moment in your life. I think even if I didn't know you personally, I would be very connected with you as a writer from the first page of this book. So, those lessons were really important for you to learn. I think that's how we get there, as KJ and I both know, you got to write a lot of bad stuff.KJ:                                        12:48                    We never talk about this, but you and I both, Jess, have memoirs in drawers.Jess:                                     12:53                    Yup. Yeah we do.KJ:                                        12:54                    I mean that just, it just doesn't come up. Like we talk a lot about my novel in a drawer. But it rarely comes up that I have, I can't remember if I wrote the whole thing, but I definitely have a memoir proposal in the drawer. And you have a memoir proposal and I think pretty much the memoir.Jess:                                     13:10                    Oh no, I have the whole thing. I sold chunks of it as essays and and that was sort of the thing I got out of it.Nancy:                                13:22                    Well, and I think this is really my message to anybody who's listening, and feeling frustrated, and wondering why the project isn't working. Fast forward to spring of 2018, which is when the idea for this book, The Thank You Project, came along and I know we're going to talk about it, but my message is every misstep I took was actually getting me closer to this book that I feel so strongly about, I feel so proud of, I feel like I'm the right person to tell this story that's in this book. And all that other stuff, all those years I wasn't getting published. What was I doing? I was meeting great writers. I was reading books by great writers. I was very happily sharing the work of other writer friends and promoting them and I was getting better at my craft. I was building my network of support. And so now I'm hugely gratified, but you know, there's so many people trying to help me with this book and that's because I put in 12 years of work that didn't feel at the time like it was amounting to anything. But now it's all paying off. So anybody who's listening and feeling frustrated, I would just say, please don't give up. Because there's a reason, there's a path.Jess:                                     15:03                    Well what's funny is before I wrote the proposal, as KJ well knows, for the book I just finished, I actually went through the trouble of writing proposals for a bunch of books that weren't quite right and what they were was sort of circling around the topic, but also really important work for me to do to figure out, Oh okay, so this aspect of this topic fits in somewhere, but I'm not quite sure how. So that finally when that idea comes, you have some familiarity with the things that aren't particularly interesting, or working, or whatever. So when you have that moment, it's super exciting when you have that idea for, Oh this is the thing. In fact, I pulled off the road and I texted Sarina and KJ right away and said, 'This is it. This is the thing, I know this is the right thing.'Nancy:                                16:26                    Well, and that's how it felt. So the book is called The Thank You Project: Cultivating Happiness One Letter of Gratitude at a Time. And what happened was I found an agent for that music memoir, it did not sell. And I really had a time where I thought maybe I'm not a writer, I know I'm good at writing these little blog posts and I get essays published, but maybe I don't have it in me to do a full length work. So I'm going to take this creative energy and I started the podcast and turns out I love podcasting; I'm a tech nerd at heart. A lot of the work I did the first 17 years of my career was in the software industry. So I love working, learning new technology, and everything. I was really struggling a little bit with this idea that maybe I'm not an author, I'm a writer, but not an author. I guess that's probably not an uncommon thing. And it occurred to me one day (and I was 49) it occurred to me that the reason my book didn't sell was because my character, myself in the memoir, wasn't unhappy. There wasn't a transition because she started off happy and she ended up happy. And I'm like, that's not a problem, that's something to be really grateful for. And this was at the end of 2015, and in 2016 I was going to turn 50. And I'm like, 'You know what, the thing I should do to honor and commemorate my 50th birthday is to thank the people that have made it possible for me to be where I am.' You know, my parents were alive, my husband's great, been married to him since forever, we've got two girls, you know, everything's fine. So I thought the way I want to celebrate my 50th year is I will write a letter every week, a thank you letter once a week, to somebody who has helped, or shaped, or inspired me up to this point in my life. And of course when you tell the universe that you're doing this because everything's going great, everything goes to s**t pretty darn quickly. So I started writing my letters and it was really great. I'd sit down every week and you know, write a letter to my nephew Tristan, or to my friend Kitty who lives in Australia. And it just was wonderful every week to sit down and think about this person who had been meaningful in my life and what lessons that I learned from them and how they'd help me.KJ:                                        18:44                    I'm going to interrupt, cause I know where you're going. At this point, this isn't a book?Nancy:                                18:49                    No, no. These are just letters.KJ:                                        18:51                    This is just something you're doing. So this is not like stunt journalism, in which you're, 'I don't know what I'll do. I'll write...' This is a genuine thing, right?Nancy:                                18:59                    I wasn't even an author at that point, anymore. I'd kind of tried it and not gotten through anything. So I was just writing thank you letters because that seemed like a good way to mark a period of my life. So halfway through the year, my dad gets diagnosed with cancer and he is gone in six weeks. We had no idea he was sick. My older daughter left for college a couple of weeks after the funeral and that was certainly not a sad thing, but it was a big adjustment to have your older kid to go off to school and she goes to school on the East coast. So she's far. And then it was the 2016 presidential election, so everybody's anxiety level was through the roof. And I realized the worse things got, the more I needed the thank you letters. Because it was just this moment every week where I could crowd out all this sadness, and this tension, and the worry, and I'd be like, 'Hmm, I'm gonna write a letter to the city of Oakland. Because you know what? It's not even just people who have shaped me, it's places I've lived. And then I had a period of writing letters to cities and then I started writing letters to dead authors. Like I love Jane Austen. I'm going to write her a letter, but I'm going to have to explain some things to her. And it got to be really fun. And anyway, I got to the end of the 50 letters, (took me longer than a year) printed them all out, bound them in a book, and flip through that book all the time. You know, you rifle through it and you go, 'Oh yeah, my Aunt Nooney is so nice to me.' You're having a bad day, read about what your Aunt Nooney did for you. You know, it'll cheer you up, it'll remind you that when you're in hardship, you've almost never been alone. That there's always people around you. So, just in and of its own self as a writing exercise, writing the thank you letters was really important. So now it's spring of 2018 and one of the people who got the letters, Ann Imig who is the editor of the Listen To Your Mother Anthology and the founder of that empire said, 'Nancy, that's your book. You need to tell people how to do this.' And I'm like, 'What? It's so straightforward. You write a thank you letter.' But then another friend of ours who knew that I had done it, sat me down and she's like, 'Okay, who did you write to? How long was the letter? What did you put in the letter? How did you organize it?' And I answered questions for her for like an hour. And I thought, 'Okay, maybe it's not as straightforward as I thought it was.' So I thought, you know, at this point, the podcast was cooking along, my day job's cooking along. My kids are, you know, I've got one in college, one in high school, nobody needs me around anymore. I got some free time. So I thought I'll just start writing a few chapters of this, just think about how I would write a book that explains to people how to do their own thank you project. And it poured out of me, I wrote that proposal so quickly. Why? Because I had two other book proposals that I'd already done. Yes, I wrote a book proposal for a fiction novel. Don't ask me, I know it's wrong. And now I know that. At the time when I was writing my historical fiction I didn't know. So, there's the reason I wrote two proposals because when I really needed one, I literally just could do a find replace, for the most part. So it was just kind of a proof of concept to myself that this could be something. And I wasn't going to get an agent, because agents hadn't sold my book before, so why would I bother? And then people like KJ, and Jess, and a couple other people said, 'You should talk to an agent.' So I started in April 2018, at the end of May 2018 I reached out to a few agents who I'd met in person and online, and three or four of them came back and said, 'I would love to see this proposal.' And I was like, 'Oh, that's weird.' And I got it out the door. And then the timeframe was I signed with our wonderful agent (we all have the same one, Laurie Abkemeier) who's been wonderful, signed with her in June, we worked on the proposal together in July, and I signed a deal with Running Press in the end of August. This is all last year. So I signed the deal with Running Press in August. My deadline was November 15th for the finished book.Jess:                                     23:16                    You had written parts of it -Yes? No?Nancy:                                23:19                    Well, I'd written the first three chapters that belonged in the proposal...Jess:                                     23:25                    So what had you been smoking to make you think that you could set a deadline that quickly? What was the thinking behind that?Nancy:                                23:33                    I knew how to write this book, I knew how to tell this story. I'd written the letters. I knew how impactful they could be. I really wanted other people to know. I am spiritual, I'm a church lady, I go to this Episcopal church. And I do think this is one of those cases where I was given a message to share because that's something I can do. I can tell like a funny, uplifting story. It's taken me 13 years, but I know how to do that. In the places where the other two books had been a struggle - I don't want to say I couldn't have told those stories, but this one just was easy for me. I just knew what I wanted to say, and I and I knew how to say it. And let's face it, I do use snippets of the letters and there were days that I needed the #AmWriting podcast, I'm like, 'Ooh, I need a burn chart. I need to know what my daily word count is. And there were days where I'm like, 'Well I'm talking about a letter to write to a doctor, maybe I'll include a snippet of the letter I wrote to my OB.' I just covered my word chart, like put in two paragraphs, and I'd be done, go get my coffee. So there was a little bit of source material in that I do include snippets of my letters to kind of get people started. But I didn't want it to just be my letters. I ended up interviewing a few people who had done something similar, so I've got some other people's examples. And then the thing that I loved about writing the book was that it gave me a chance to delve into the science of happiness and gratitude. Cause I didn't want it to just be, 'This is what I did, so you should try it.' I wanted to steep it in some quantitative research that talks about why gratitude letters are so magic. And you know, low and behold, during those 13 years when I was freelance writing, I interviewed a bunch of happiness researchers for various publications. So I had the Rolodex - does anybody listening know what a Rolodex is? I had the phone numbers, okay? So I called the researchers and I got to interview them and you know, again, that was not wasted time. All of that stuff is why I could do it in two and a half months.Jess:                                     25:50                    And it's why KJ, over and over again, insists that I'm not allowed to say, 'You know, boy, I got really lucky with Gift of Failure, right place, right time.' Well, no, it was a lot of work and it's that work that other people don't see.KJ:                                        26:04                    Preparation meeting opportunity.Jess:                                     26:06                    Yeah, exactly. There you go. There you go. The thing that I was really interested in - let's say you've got all of these letters, and you've got this idea about how you want to do this. In terms of organization, I really liked the way you organize the book and it was a little unexpected. I thought it was going to be like sequential, but you did a really interesting thing with the organization. I'm kinda wondering how you arrived at that particular sequence.Nancy:                                26:37                    Welcome to my brain, cause I do think it's sequential. I knew that I wanted the introduction because (I'm not gonna give away the whole introduction) but basically when my dad got his letter (I wrote to him and my mom first) and my dad was very cute and called me and he's like, 'Aww, Nance, I loved it. I put it in a frame and it's over my desk.' So I knew I wanted to start with the fact that my dad had this letter framed and sitting over his desk. And then I figured I would need to go through exactly all the questions that Melissa asked me on the porch that day. Like, 'Who did you write to? How did you...' So there's a first chapter that's all about how you can organize this. And I want to say at the outset, throughout this book, I say, 'But that's what I did, do what you want.' Like nobody is in charge of your pace, what you write, who you write to. And the amazing thing about gratitude letters (as I found out from the researchers) is that even just thinking about what you would put in a letter creates happiness benefits for you. So it's all about firing the neurons and getting the positive outlook kind of codified within your brain pan. That's how I would explain it. So writing it down is great, but even if you read this book, and just think about the things that I'm talking about, people will get benefits. But then, after that section, the whole rest of the book is, here's the kinds of people who you might want to think about writing. And I think some of the categories are obvious - from friends and family. Although less obvious, because do you ever write a thank you letter to your spouse, or to your kid, or to your parent? Probably not. You know, there's a whole category of people that we take for granted and so that's kind of where I start. And part of the reason is because it gets the juices flowing for when you're writing the thank you letters, you know, you have a lot of source material for those people. But as I went through my own process and I just kept coming back to this idea of, okay, who helped me, shaped me, inspired me. Well, one of the people who helped me was my German ex-boyfriend when I lived in Germany and didn't know how to file taxes. It didn't work out with him. But man, he made sure my taxes were done every year on time and properly, and I wouldn't have been able to stay in Germany if I'd screwed up, their bureaucracy is on it. Like I'm sure they would've found me and sent me back to America. So I wrote a letter to him and this is when I figured out that I could write letters and not send them. Nobody needed to know that I was doing this. So I could write a thank you letter to anybody. I could write it to my childhood bully; I was so sensitized to bullying because I had been a victim of it, that my kids from the minute they started school, we talked about bullying. What do you do if you see it? What do you do? How do you help somebody going through it? How do you make sure you're never the perpetrator? You know, I'm not sure I would have been so tuned into that if I hadn't known this person. Now, that was a letter I actually chose not to write. That was one where I was like, 'You know what, I don't want to spend any more time on her.' But you could. And so, it was fun to kind of expand and so I did that in writing my own letters. But in writing the book, what I loved was thinking about, 'Well, who's going to read this? Could be anybody.' So what other things, like what's outside of my world, that I should think about and prompt people to write about. Like, I've never been in the army, but I made sure to say like, 'You might want to write a letter to your drill instructor.' You know, there's so many kinds of people, and I just tried really hard in writing it to have as an inclusive tone as I could. And I had a few people read it who had very different experiences from me, and that's what I asked them to read for. I wanted to make sure that someone who wasn't heterosexual would also feel like this book spoke to them and somebody who wasn't white would also feel...So I was at a conference that I had the chance to hear Aya de Leon, do you guys know her? She's a Bay area writer and professor. She writes these really great crime capers with African-American heroines. And a lot of times her heroines are sex workers and she's really about like, they're very feminist, but they kind of they have a message that's a little bit hidden.Jess:                                     31:18                    I'm looking at the covers right now, they're so good. They're these women, sort of face forward at the camera, The Boss, and then another one called Side Chick Nation, and another one called Uptown Thief. They're fantastic covers, I love them. And really strong women with their shoulders back and sort of facing you like, yeah, bring it. I like it.Nancy:                                31:40                    Right. And she's really smart. And at this conference I went to, she was just saying, 'If you want to write diverse character well, have diverse friends.' I just thought that's so obvious. But as writers, if you want to reach out to a diverse audience, make sure you've got those people in your real life so that you can go to them. And that was, again, my 13 years of preparation. I knew who I could ask to read for different things. And so that was a part of the review process.Jess:                                     32:14                    One of the things that you said, you asked a lot of people who had experience outside of yours to help you, but the thing that you did really well in the book is to create these ideas about how you should think about the thank you notes. And one of the things you said was, 'Who or what has shaped me?' And that is such a personal question, but a question that is universal. Because as you said, it could be the ex-boyfriend that things didn't work out with. But everyone's got those people that you realize, Oh wow, I didn't actually thank that person. And it may not have been a particularly positive experience at the time, but that question alone right there, I think, makes the book nice and generalizes it for everyone. I love that question.Nancy:                                32:56                    Well, and I hope that given that it's coming out before we start another presidential election year, people are so isolated and people are so quick to judge now, and maybe we always were, but it just feels different. And part of what I think these letters can do is remind us the small ways that people in our lives have helped us. Even if we were on opposite sides of a divide now, they've made a difference for us. And just sending those letters (or even if you write and it's not possible for you to send it) even writing it to remind yourself of the humanity of the people on the receiving end, I think is really powerful. So I'm glad it's coming out when it does, I hope it is helpful for people next year. I'm just really excited for it to come out. Can I say one thing? Because of this audience, I think I can share this. The one thing that I wanted to mention is that the same week that I got the book deal, my mom was diagnosed with lymphoma. And my mom's 86, and she's in an assisted living place, and she's got dementia. And they initially gave my mom a two and a half month...I was going to say sentence. That's what it felt like, they said that's how much time she has left. And it was awful, because on the same week I got this amazing news, I got horrible news. And I'm not going to leave you in suspense, Mom's doing fine, we took her to a specialist a few weeks later who kind of said, 'It's not nearly as dire as the first guy said and here's a bunch of treatment options.' And so mom is hanging in, she still loves John Denver, we talk a lot about John Denver. No, but it was a real exercise in compartmentalization. That's why I bring it up, because I knew I had to get this book done, and my siblings are amazing. I would have probably said like, 'I can just not do the book.' and they would have never forgiven me. So they're like, 'Figure out what your schedule is, come home if you can, and you'll get it done.' So the shitty first draft was done in six weeks, and I flew to Rochester to visit with my mom, and spent a week with her, came back, and then I finished the book after that. And the whole time I just had to keep these two things separate, because I could not have finished the book otherwise. And when it was over, I completely fell apart for a little while. And the irony was, writing the thank you notes again, writing about thank you notes, I got to kind of use them a second time in just the same way that I had the first time I wrote the letters. You know, to kind of say, 'My mom's got an X-Ray today, and we don't know what it's going to find, but Hey, I'm writing about how funny it was that time I wrote a letter to so-and-so.' If you think of writers sitting in a cabin somewhere, and having all their diversions taken away, and there's nothing but good whiskey and the sound of this pounding surf, I think that's b******t. You know, you just have to write through what you have to write through. And I felt lucky to have the opportunity. Who's the biggest reader I know? My mom, you know, back when she could read, I was not going to let her down.Jess:                                     36:39                    Is she pretty stoked for you?Nancy:                                36:42                    She's pretty hilarious, my mother. She is stoked; she remembers that I have a book, that's landed somewhere, I don't think she knows what it's about. She's astonished that I told her I will bring her a book in person and hand deliver it to her. Well, she literally was the one who put the love of reading in me, so there you go.KJ:                                        37:06                    I mean we'd all like that cabin, but you know, both Jess and I had big deadlines this year, and we both also had big personal stuff that our families overall prefer that we left as as family. But yeah, it's part of being a pro, and it's also just part of like embracing that part of who we are. It's like, you know, I'm a writer, I'm a writer with the sick parent. I'm a writer with whatever other problem that you have. But I'm a writer and this is what I'm doing now, and then in three hours I'll be doing something else. And I think you're so right to shout that out, because I know frequently I will sit there with my personal problems and with my deadline and go, 'Other people don't have to deal with this.' But honestly, yes they do.Jess:                                     38:07                    Yeah. There were plenty of times going towards this deadline where I would hang up the phone having dealt with some of the personal stuff that was going on, and just take a couple of really deep breaths, maybe have a good cry, and then turn on my monitor, and get back to work.Nancy:                                38:21                    Did you both feel like the writing part was like safe haven? Because that's how I felt. And then I was writing from like five to seven in the morning, cause I still had the day job. But I was like jumping out of bed cause I knew the next two hours I'll be happy.KJ:                                        38:39                    Having the abiity to focus on it - like having spent, (you've been talking about putting in the work) having spent the past decade or more, turning stuff off, and turning to the keyboard or the paper or whatever, and saying, 'You know I got to get this.' So having that practice, the ability to just shut everything else down and focus on it, I've been so grateful - past-me for teaching present-me to do that. So thank you letter to her, I guess.Jess:                                     39:13                    It was also really nice for me occasionally to not feel guilty. You know, I feel like when other people need me or I'm supposed to be feeling a certain way about something, it's nice to have a pass to say, 'Nope, I can't do that. I can't spend emotional attention on that right now because this has to happen.' I have this deadline, so I get to turn that off for a minute and not feel guilty about feeling bad for someone else while I can focus on the words. And so for me, it was an incredible safe haven. It was license for me to focus on something else that really was about what I love doing. And if I hadn't had that, I think it would have been an even more challenging summer than it was. But this really gave me a way out of that.Nancy:                                40:02                    So the message is for writers, if you're having a terrible time, try writing, maybe that will cheer you up.Jess:                                     40:08                    Well, but we do have to move on to what we've been reading because we're running over, so let's talk about what we've been reading. Nancy, would you like to tell us?Nancy:                                40:33                    Yes. So I was visiting my mom two weeks ago, and even if she can't read anymore, she still demands that we do. And in the assisted living place, there's a giant bookcase outside her apartment, and she always makes me take a book when we go by, just take one. They don't care, just take one. So I grabbed one off the top. It was The Good Lord Bird by James McBride, which was a 2013 national book winner that I finally got to in 2019, it's been out for a while. Oh my gosh, I loved it so much. I actually just finished it last night. Ironically, one of the small characters in the book is the main character in my historical fiction novel in a drawer. So I think maybe that's why I avoided it. I didn't want to see him be alive in somebody else's book. But oh, it was fantastic. It was like Mark Twain on steroids. I loved it. It's all about John Brown and Harper's Ferry. I love abolitionist. You know, abolition is lit. And it's really, really well done. It's a fun story.Jess:                                     41:34                    Yeah, that shelf in the bookstore, it's the popular one, The Abolition Is Lit shelf. I have a whole shelf on fishing in New England in the 1850s or so. That's a whole section in my library cause I'm obsessed with the whole Gloucester, fishermen thing. That's a thing for me. I'm still reading away on some of the stuff that's on my Audible. But I will say, that I just found out and I had mentioned this before, that when I am writing stuff, I like to reread things that are comforting, and I had been relistening to a whole bunch of Jane Austen and I just found out that there is a recording of Sense and Sensibility with Kate Winslet. And so that is going to be a evening listen for me.KJ:                                        42:33                    We have recorded multiple episodes this week and I am out, but I have already shouted out the What Should I Read Next? Podcast, but I have to shout it out again. So it's What Should I Read Next? With Anne Bogle, who some might know as the Modern Mrs. Darcy, she's had a blog for a long time. So I listened to an episode of this podcast earlier this week and I ended up downloading samples of four different books and they only talked about like eight. Somebody goes on and says, 'These are the books I like and this is what I'd like to read next.' And it's just such an incredible joy. So, try the podcast and I guarantee that you will come away with something to read, even if I can't suggest anything at the moment. Yeah, it's a really good one.Jess:                                     43:34                    Alright, Nancy, do you have a bookstore you love?Nancy:                                43:38                    I very much have a bookstore I love, it's called A Great Good Place for Books, here in Oakland up in the Montclair neighborhood. And Kathleen Caldwel,l who owns it, is the neighborhood treasurer. Everybody's kid has worked at that bookstore at some point. And she pays them in books and it's just fantastic. In fact, Great Good Place is doing my launch party, which is on December 3rd, and she's just one of those people you walk in the door and she says, 'Oh, Nancy, I knew you were coming in this week, so I've put aside three books for you.' And my favorite story about her was the time I ordered Skippy Dies, it's very dark Irish boarding school, it's like a comedy tragedy. It's an amazing book. And she sold my husband a gift card for me for Christmas, cause that's what I get every Christmas. Andrew, if you're listening, I need a gift card. And I took it in and I said, 'Okay, I want to get Skippy Dies.' And she said, 'Well, I'm going to order you the three part version of the book.' And I said, 'I think it's just a novel. I've been reading reviews, it's one book.' And she goes, 'Oh, it's so much cooler when it comes in the case. So I'm going to get you this. And I know how much is on your gift card, you can afford it.' So I love Kathleen, she is always hustling for those authors. She brings in great, great authors for readings and yeah, so if you're in Oakland check out Great Good Place For Books.Jess:                                     45:08                    Alright, everyone needs to run right out and get The Thank You Project: Cultivating Happiness One Letter of Gratitude at a Time by Nancy Davis Kho. It is going to make such a good gift, that's my plan (sorry, spoiler alert to everyone who's getting presents for me this year) that's what you're getting. So get excited to read this book, it's fantastic. So congratulations on your long path to publication and thank you so much for being on the podcast today.Nancy:                                45:35                    Thank you guys so much for having me. And everybody out there - keep writing, you're on the path, you're doing it.Jess:   

James: Okay. So let's get started.  Hey audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Podcast. Today, we have Tim Bratz from Legacy Wealth Holdings. Tim is a multi-family syndicator/sponsor who owns almost 3200 units almost valued at 250 million dollars in value. Hey Tim, welcome to the show. Tim: James, I appreciate you having me, buddy, thank you.  James: Absolutely. Happy to have you here. I've been trying to get you on the show for some time and we have been playing tag on the appointments. That's good. So, can you tell me which market are you focusing on right now?  Tim: I'm actually in six different markets, six different states. I'm pretty heavy in the Southeast. Majority of my property, about 70% of my properties are in South Carolina and Georgia, but I'm also in Ohio which is where I live. And then I'm also in Texas, Oklahoma and I got a couple of vacation rentals down in Florida as well. James: Okay. Without going too much into detail just quickly, how did you start? And then how did you scale to 3,200 units within how many years?  Tim: Yeah. Well, I mean, I was going through college when the last market cycle was going gangbusters. So 03 to 07, I'm going through college, everybody said if you wanna make money get involved in real estate. I ended up moving out to New York City because my brother was living out there. And I became a commercial real estate agent for businesses. You know, so I broker leases and I brokered a lease that was 400 square feet in Manhattan. It was $10,000 a month and so I was like the wrong side of the coin. I need to be owning real estate not brokering it. So I got into a lot of the residential stuff. I think a lot of investors get into real estate because of the lure of passive income and residual income, but then many of us get stuck doing this transactional stuff of flipping houses and wholesaling. And I went through that same phase, you know, I thought I had to stockpile my own cash. I didn't understand that you could syndicate, that you could raise private money and bring in equity partners and how your sponsors to then cosign on loans. I didn't know that that was possible.  So I went through the whole residential side of things and bought my first apartment building the end of 2012. So just like seven years ago. It was a little eighth unit building and I fixed it all up, put tenants in place and I was like man, I'm making better returns on this than I am flipping houses and it's way less headaches. And so I bought another eight-unit and kind of built up a portfolio about 150 units with some partners.           That partnership ended up going bad a few years later. In 2015, I ended up liquidating everything and then just going back out on my own. And so I started on my own and just kind of partnered up with a couple of people that they just started raising money for different projects and I partnered up with good operators and bring money to those projects and help sponsor those loans or I started buying my own properties here locally in Cleveland. And over the past four years, pretty much in August of 2015, I started buying my own stuff. So it's been right at four years now. I built up a little over 3200 units, 3207 units as of today, about 251 million dollars worth of property value and my model is based on the residential realm, actually. I buy properties and I got to be all in for 65% of the stabilized value because that's what the model was. I never read a book. I never went to a seminar before. I just kind of developed it myself and I started buying properties, apartment buildings, the exact same way.  So I have to be able to buy it, renovate it, be all in for 65% of that stabilized value. And so a lot of the buildings that I buy, you know, I'm into a building that's worth 10 million dollars for about six-six and a half million dollars. So on the 250 million dollars worth of property, I only owe to lenders and my equity investors, it's like right at 150 million dollars. So we have a lot of equity in our properties too.  James: Got it. Got it. So it's very interesting you bring up that 65% because that's the exact number that I had when I was doing my single-family for zero money down. So I counted if I get at 65% ARV, which is after repair value, you should be able to do a second load, which is I call it as a double closing of a loan. I have two loans; one loan is like you do like a short term loan and at 65%, you buy it, you take a rehab loan and then you flip it to the long term loan. Tim: Yes. That's my entire model. So I don't traditionally syndicate, I buy distressed assets. I'm bigger than some of the smaller investors but not quite a hedge fund or a Reit and I'm willing to get my hands dirty, I'm willing to actually do the work. So I take on a little bit more distressed type properties. I only buy in A and B Class areas, but the properties are typically C-Class type properties that need physical improvements, better management. Like really not just value-add but like a total repositioning a lot of times. We're remarketing, rebranding, all that. And so, we come in and we fix it all up and because we force appreciation because we can make it happen and really create the appreciation versus speculating on appreciation and hoping values go up over the next five years, we're able to create a lot of equity in that first 12 months and then we're able to turn around and refinance and cash out our investors.  So instead of selling, I just refinance at like a 70% loan to value that gives me enough money to then, pay off my bridge loan. Or that short-term construction loan is and it helps me pay off my investors and to me, it's more predictable. It's more predictable to know where interest rates and where the economy is going to be 12 months from now or 18 months from now than it is like maybe 5 or 7 years from now. Five or seven years from now, we could have a very different economy, very different political circumstances; could have three different presidents in the next five years, right? So we just don't know.  And for me, I like the predictability of buying at a wholesale price, creating an appreciation and then cashing out my investors. Now it's you know for lack of a better term house money in play, right? So now we can let the property ride and we can hit sit on it. It doesn't matter what happens to the economy for the next 10 years, I have a long-term, long amortization schedule fixed interest rate loan, non-recourse loan in place; where the market can go up it can go down, I still have tenants in place paying the debt service, paying the operating expenses, and putting cash in my pocket and I could ride this thing out because I don't owe any of my investors any more cash.  James: Got it. Got it. So yeah, that's exactly the deep value add, that's how I position it where you buy it at really good value; very, very low level.  You really put all your effort to push up the first appreciation and then you go and refi in 12 to 18 months, I guess right? Tim: And we built some new construction stuff too, down in the Southeast. We built some townhouses. Like we'll do new construction, it'll be like an A or B plus kind of an area but it's not luxury. We do only workforce type housing so we can build townhouses for about $85,000 per unit, 80 to 90,000 per unit and they'll rent for about 1,300 bucks a month for us. And so that allows us to get the values where we need it to then refinance and do the exact same thing just for new construction. So we do a little bit of that and more repositioning of existing assets though. James:  Yeah, very interesting. I really like the model. I was doing it like two-three years ago. I mean, for me, I got worried about the market and I start, not looking for deep value add and also deep value add is harder to find. Even though you find it, what happened the sellers are basically taking the value by pushing up the price on the deep value add and because of that, it's not a deep value add anymore. Tim: Right. I don't pay a seller for the value that I'm going to bring to the property, right? So there are some sellers that you know, they're like, oh, well, this could be worth this much. Yeah, but I have to create that value. You're not creating that value. So we find we're a lot of times direct to seller, off-market type property. You know, we're big enough now, especially in Georgia and South Carolina, we have the broker relationships where we're one of the top five buyers in town and you get those deals before they actually hit the market. But in a lot of other markets, I'm not, you know, the biggest buyer in town so I have to go off-market, direct to seller, kind of stuff. And we get a lot of our properties from Mom and Pops who have owned it for 20 30 years or inherited the property. They just didn't put any more money back into it. You know, the total debt on the property is very low if at all and they just don't want to put any more money into it. They don't want to do the work so we buy it from them. Or I buy a lot from smart entrepreneurs, really sharp people who make a lot of money in their traditional business and they just put their money in real estate and then they didn't have a joint venture partner. They never got educated. They don't know how to manage a management company or interview a management company and they just get abused in the business. So they're like I'm making too much money in my traditional business, this thing is going to sink me. Let me just fire sale this apartment building. So that's where we buy most of our properties from. And then again: we reposition it, we do the stuff that that hedge funds aren't willing to do, and we're qualified enough to take down a 200 unit building that needs a pretty heavy value-add. I do it that way. But like you said though, James, I'm starting to buy a little bit more stabilized assets, more like 85-90 percent occupied of just a little bit of tweaks in the common areas and amenities and then bumping up some rents. We're doing a little bit more of that right now just because of where we are in the market cycle.  James: Yeah, correct. But you gave a lot of details that I want to go a bit more detail into that. So you said you look for deals that are in class A and B, but more distress. And I mean you're basically shrinking your funnel as well because you're going for that... Tim:  Niche gets rich, right? James: Exactly. [11:02crosstalk] Tim: People say hey real estate's mine age. Now real estate's an industry, right? Apartments aren't even initial. You need to figure out what you are really, really good at. And one of the things that I'm really good at is 80 units to 100 units that are distress. It's bigger, it's too distressed for the small guys to get a loan on it because they don't have the background or the resume to go and take down that kind of stuff and the qualifications do that because they haven't done it before. It's a big project, big value add and at the same time, it's too distressed for the hedge funds because they just want to park money and let it sit, let it ride, and let it cash flow from day one. So this is my niche. It's A and B Class areas; good areas, desirable areas, just distressed kind of properties and we're able to get in there and we have all the financing, the relationships are all in place. We could raise the money pretty easily because we can cycle our money every 12 to 18 months. I don't have to wait five years to get my investors their money out; I can cycle at every 12 to 18 months. So as soon as I pay him back guess what they say, let's go do another one. And then they're involved in you know, three deals in five years versus one deal in five years and it makes my life easier because I don't have to go and raise money from new people all the time. James: Got it. Got it. That's a really good model. So that's the investors after you cash out when you pay them back, do they stay in the deal as well? Tim: Yep. So mine's a little bit different than traditional syndication. Usually me and my joint venture boots-on-the-ground partners, we keep 70 to 80% of the equity in the deal and then we pay a pref, a fixed pref to our investors regardless of the properties performance. So even if it's not cash flowing it's predictable because I know that if I'm borrowing 2 million bucks, I'm paying, let's say, 10% pref, I'm going to pay $200,000. That's just a cost of the deal. I got roofs, I got flooring, I got paint, I got cost of capital; it's an extra $200,000.  So I build that into my model and then I can make those payments to them. They feel more confident, more comfortable because now they have a predictable return on their investment. Then I refinance, they get all their money back off the table and then they still maintain 20-30% ownership without any money invested and we're able to do that again and again and again. And so, you know with traditional syndicators if I try raising money from somebody who's used to traditional syndication, they're like, why would I ever do that? Well, you get a predictable return and secondly, you get 30% ownership.  But if all your money is in three different deals, it's actually 90% ownership because 30% 30% 30%. And so overall, they're actually ahead of what they would do in traditional syndication where they might get 70 or 80% of the equity in one deal. So, it actually works out better for the investors, works out better for me but it's a lot of work on my part. We spend a lot of money.  Sometimes we spend a lot of money on advertising in new markets until we have those relationships built up and then, in order to find those off-market direct to seller deals and it's a lot of work. Like my business partner down in Georgia that I own a bunch of property with, he goes and sleeps at the properties for three nights a week. He spends four full days there, sleeps in a B-class apartment, you know, on a blow-up mattress, the guy is worth 25 million bucks. And then his brother who's our other partner is worth another 25 million and they're sleeping at the properties, doing the work, kicking the tables, making sure construction ends up on time, on budget and that's what you need to do man. I see a lot of people who are trying to be this puppet master and they're not willing to actually do the work of taking ownership over this thing. They just want to go and syndicate and then go back off to whatever they're doing. And to me, like there's something to be said about just having old school diligence and work mentality and what you can get done if you're willing to do that kind of stuff. James: Yeah, real estate is very, very powerful; especially commercial real estate where you can force appreciate. And especially if you are going to get the majority of the equity in the deal, why not I sleep, right?  In 12 months, 70 to 80% of this deal is going to be mine. Why not work hard, I'm with you. Tim: It's a season of your life. If you're putting your head down for a year or 18 months, but then you can generate millions of dollars of equity, why not do that? And so yeah, that's kind of the mentality that we take.  James: Correct. Yeah, it's very powerful to create wealth and I think the investors appreciate that as well because now you're able to give them back their money and all that. But your model is assuming that you are able to refi into a long term loan in the 12 to 18 months, right? So what happened if that model breaks? Tim: Yep, absolutely. So that's the inherent risk with our model is what happens if rates change, what happens? If banking tightens up, what does that all look like? So a couple of things. One, I don't think rates are going to change as much in 12 or 18 months as they would maybe in five or seven years. So to me, we underwrite the deal - like right now, I just closed on 500 units. I got 2 buildings, around 250 units each last month and I got a 3.83 and a 3.88 interest rate. Even right now, rates went up back; they're hovering around for four and a quarter right now for stabilized assets. We're underwriting the deals with 4.75 to five percent interest rate on the back end for a stabilized property. So we're taking on some of that, some of that, we're underwriting it for that. We also underwrite our rents very, very conservatively and we're at such a low basis in the property, usually around 60% of what that stabilized value is, we have options. So Fannie and Freddie are tightening up big time right now. That's okay because we're at such a low basis that we can still go over to CMBS - commercial mortgage-backed security - or a life insurance company and even though they offer a lower loan to value, I'm okay with that because I'm at a low enough basis. I can still cash out my investors.  So worst-case scenario, my investors still get their money back and we have a lower LTV loan. So maybe there's not some refi proceeds or anything like that that we can take off the table but at the end of the day, they're going to have more equity, you know, their equities gonna be worth more in the property and the cash flow is going to be more on a recurring basis for that. And the other thing is even when banks stopped lending to people in 2009-2010, guess what? They were still lending to somebody and it was the people with big balance sheets, with stabilized portfolios. And I have a big enough balance sheet and stable enough portfolio. I'll be able to get refinanced regardless of what happens in the next 12 to 18 months so I'm not that concerned about it. And again, because our basis is so low, we have such high cash flow on these properties. I have different options and have a good team of mortgage brokers. Who even if I had a slap another, you know three-year loan on there, even if it was at 6% interest rate or six and a half percent interest rate, I can still cash flow;  it's enough. It covers my operating expenses, it covers my debt service, still puts cash flow in the bank. You know, it's a crappy conversation that I have to have with my equity investors, but they keep on making ten percent on their money so they're happy.           You know, the worst-case scenario is they get their money back in 48 months; then, you know it is what it is. So I've taken a look at all the downside. I've talked to people with billion dollar portfolios and said, hey poke holes in my model. And that's the inherent risk is what if you can't refinance? So that's one of the things. The deals that I just closed last month, they were already in that 85-90 percent occupancy range. Like right at 90-91, I think is what they were. And so we got a Fannie Mae loan actually on it. That's a construction loan that we'll be able to put a supplemental debt on it. So, it's already a long term loan, 30-year amortization, couple years of interest only. And then, whenever we create the appreciation, 12 months 18 months from now, we'll be able to put supplemental debt, which is kind of like a second mortgage almost but through the same lender, so they're cool with it. And so the only real risk I'm taking is the interest rate on that portion of the debt. I owe 17 million dollar mortgage on it right now. And then the other will be about another 7 million dollars. So the only real rate risk is I'll get home at three point eight percent on 17 million dollars, even if the other 7 million goes a 5%, my blended cost of capital still four and a quarter or maybe a little less. So, you know, that's another way that we're reducing that ongoing risk.  James: It's very interesting. Now you're convincing me to do deep value add again. So because it's just so hard to mess up. Tim: I mean, the construction is where it all comes down to. I mean, if you stay on time and on budget, you're in good shape. But if you don't have a good construction partner like you can really get burn bad in the deep value add stuff. So you've got to understand what your team looks like, what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are. And for me, we're okay with it. We're pretty good at it and we have a really good construction team.  My partner in Georgia, man, I put him toe-to-toe against anybody in the country from a construction standpoint. He can build new construction, he can renovate existing units. And because he has the mentality of 'let me go and sleep at the property' three nights a week, away from his family, away from his five kids, you know, he's willing to take that on because it's again a season of his life. Like that's kind of partners that I like to partner up with. James: Yeah. Hustlers, they will go really far in life and that's what we need. It's very interesting. So I mean, is there any deal that you find that you didn't do? That you think you should have done and after you passed on it, you realized, ah, should have done that deal? Is there a deal that you look at...  Tim: That's a good question.  Let me think on this. We try to kill deals. I try to kill every deal that comes across my plate, especially right now. I try to look for every reason to walk away from every deal that comes across my desk. If I cannot kill the deal then I know it's a good deal. And so, you know, as soon as you're like, 'hey, well, I think I can scale back construction and make it work', wrong idea, wrong strategy. Because the last thing you want to scale back is the construction of the value-add process. Because then your rents aren't going to hit where you expect them to hit because you're not able to attract better tenants or higher quality tenants and they don't see the value that you're adding to the property. At the end of the day, like people like, 'oh, I think we can make this one work.' No. The only way you can make it work is if you go back to the seller and negotiate a lower purchase price because that's the only variable in this equation. You know, what rents are going to be is what rents are going to be; what the construction budget is, is what the construction budget is. The only variable here is the purchase price. And you know, you make your money on the buy side. So are there deals that I passed up on that I should have moved on? Maybe but for me, man, I don't have much of a risk tolerance. I only buy stuff that I know that is very predictable to me. That's why I don't play the stock market. I can't control if you know Volkswagen -  I can't control if Elon Musk smokes a joint on public television and the stock drops by 15%; you know, I can't control that. I like being able to control real estate and having very predictable returns for me and my investors. And sometimes it's a gut check, you know. Even if everything looks good on paper, but my gut doesn't feel good about it, I'll say no to a deal. It's just that I've seen enough deals go south. And as quickly as we can build our net worth, being in commercial real estate, one bad deal can take out your legs and wipe you out totally. So I'm just not willing to take on that risk, especially when it takes so much work in order to get to where we are.  James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I want to touch on your gut check thing because I know numbers don't lie and we are numbers guys and when underwriting, we want to make sure things work on paper and all that. But I've walked out of a deal because everything works very well and the numbers look good, but there is something wrong in that deal that I didn't discover and I've walked out from that kind of deal as well. And that's very important. I mean, real estate is not only science where everybody says a numbers game and people that are good in numbers will do it but there's a lot of odd to it as well where it's just something wrong somewhere and it comes from experience. Tim:  That's the only way you get that, from experience and it's usually personnel kind of things that make me walk from a deal. I'm just not comfortable with that joint venture partner, with that management company or with whatever the seller is saying. You can kind of see through the lines once in a while, whatever that is. Yeah, I mean my model is I'm really good at raising money. I'm really good at sourcing deals. We're pretty good at creating - like we can handle a lot of the back office type stuff.  I'm back in Cleveland, Ohio now, is where I live, we can handle a lot of the management side of things; collecting of rents, work orders, telecommunication; all that kind of stuff, all the administrative side. From here in Cleveland, we just need a local boots-on-the-ground partner and some local property managers, maintenance personnel, and I always have a joint venture partner locally. And so if that joint venture partner isn't strong enough, then usually I'll walk away from the deal. Because man, I think it's important to have somebody with vested interest, with equitable interest in the deal; who's local to the property, who can go put their eyes on it a couple of times a month; to keep everybody honest, to keep the management company honest, to keep the local property manager, maintenance personnel, leasing agents and just come in and kick the tables once a month and just let people know that we're paying attention. Because if you don't pay attention, then they take advantage of you.  James: Yeah, it's hard work. I mean, I know exactly how you feel in terms of how much hustle and how much detail and how much you have to be on top of the property managers because it's not their baby, it's your baby. And there's so much of details that if you don't ask them, they're just going to slack off right?  Tim: Yes.   James: They are paid differently from what we have paid for and we are the owners and it's just completely different ownership level, right? So that's very interesting. Is there any deal that you think after you bought it didn't match from what you thought in the beginning. You thought this is how I'm going to execute it but once you buy, it's like, oh, it's completely different from what I thought and how did you overcome it? Tim: Yeah, I mean every deal is a learning experience and you to get punched in the gut enough times and eventually you learn. Fortunately, you know when I was growing my portfolio, I bought my first building in 2012 and I bought an eight-unit building for $30,000. So I'm in Cleveland, Ohio buying units for $4,000 a unit. I put another, I don't know, 50 grand into it. So I'm all in for $10,000 a unit. And it's hard to lose. And so in 2012 2013 2014 as I'm growing my portfolio, while I'm going through these learning curves, the market is getting better and that was able to absorb a lot of my screw-ups early on. So I still made money on every single deal that I did even though I was learning on a lot of these things. There's only one building, a 44 unit building, that I bought about 2-3 years ago maybe that I've lost money on. It was one of those things, hey, I saw the leases, I saw the rent roll. It was 80% occupied and I bought it from a guy that I know, somebody that I actually know. And so, I bought 44 units and he's like, "Yeah, man, 80% occupancy." "Great, man. I'm going to come in, I'm going to renovate the last whatever 9 units and turn those over. I got a local team." He was out of state.  "So like my team can come in clean it all up clean up the common areas. I think I can make $300,000 on this thing in the next 12 months pretty easily and it'll cash flow a little bit in the meantime." So I buy it and I find out it's only 25% economically occupied. So there are 35 tenants or something in place and only 11 of them are actually paying rent. And so I learned my lesson there, you know. It's not about occupancy, it's about collections.  And this is a buddy of mine. This is somebody I've known for many years and grabbed dinner with him, his wife, my wife and not a lot of times but a few times and close enough where I call him a buddy. And all of a sudden, he sells me a building, tells me it's 80% occupied, doesn't tell me it's only collecting 25%. And all of a sudden, I had to kick out 24 tenants and turn over 24 additional units.  So imagine what that cost does now to the $300,000 I thought I was going to make? And this was one of the only times I brought an investor in and he wanted 50/50 of the deal: "Let me bring the money, you do the deal."  "Okay, cool."  And I'm stroking a check for about 35 40 thousand dollars when it was all said and done. And I could have gone to that investor and said, "Hey, man, I need 20 grand from you. I'm putting up 20 grand of my money. We're selling this thing. It's a pain in the butt. We're gonna lose money on it. But, you know, we gotta get rid of it. And that's part of the deal."  Instead, I stroked the entire check, gave him 100% of his money back and because he didn't make a return, I gave him equity in another deal of mine, without him having to put up any money just to kind of soften that blow. And so I think when you do the right thing by your investors word spreads, you know, he says great things about me, he wants to invest in more deals with me and stuff now. It is, do the right thing knowing that there's always another deal. There's always another opportunity.  That one, we could have held on to the property long-term and let it cash flow. That's a cool thing about buying apartment buildings. You can really screw up and if you had to, you can hold on to it, manage it, let it cash flow for the next 10 years and eventually, you'll actually make money on these things even with that big of a screw-up. But for me and where my long-term vision is and my team and everything else, it was just more of a C-Class type property. It took up too much management and too many headaches. It wasn't big enough. We couldn't really scale it. So we made just a business decision to sell it and to eat that loss. But it's the only building I ever really ever lost money on. Now we've gone through pretty much everything and we've gotten kicked in the crotch enough times where we know what to look for across every building. Like it's very hard to pull the wool over our eyes unless it's like grossly fraudulent on the sellers part.  Another big thing that I didn't know early on that I wish I should have done that's always a consistent issue with every building we've ever bought is like the plumbing and the drain tiles leaving the building. It's always one of those unknowns. So now, we spend three to five thousand dollars to scope every single drain line, in every building that we put under contract to ensure that there's not going to be this massive plumbing bill, unexpected plumbing bill, once we buy the property. So that's one of the things that's been a big deal.           And then just verifying collections. Like those two things from a financial due diligence and a physical due diligence perspective like those two things that we've dialed in now and we always did everything else. We always inspected the rooms in every unit, the electrical panels. One of the other things that I didn't do early on that I do now, we've done for the many years now, is I used to only walk the vacant units and the common areas and the mechanical rooms. And then all of a sudden, you realize that they're not showing you all the vacant units. There are other vacant units that they're telling you that they're occupied, they just didn't want you to see them. And like I bought buildings where tenants were turning on and off their faucet with a wrench because there's no actual faucet. So you don't realize a lot of that stuff early on when you're a dumb kid. But I've been through all man. I've been everything. We walk every single unit on a 500 unit apartment building. We will walk every single unit and we'll put a report together on every single unit. It's a one-page, just kind of condition report. We'll take 30 pictures of every single unit. We put it all into like a Google Drive or Dropbox folder. In that way, we have all the information we could ever need on this property. We're not relying on our memory to look up all that stuff. It's all there. Our contractors can see it during the entire due diligence period, all that stuff. And so I think everything's a learning curve. I think you learn from everything. The thing in this business though is like if you can get past all those learning curves, if you can get past some of those losses and some of those getting punched in the stomach, eventually, you're process is so dialed in.  Like they can't pull the wool over your eyes that you cannot lose on deals. And that's why we walk away from a lot of deals that we do because they're waiting for somebody who's an idiot who doesn't know what they're doing to come in and buy their property and overpay for it or not do the due diligence that they're supposed to be doing and all these other things. But eventually, you know what you're doing enough, where your risk is so minimized because you've done all the due diligence on these things, it's a very predictable business at the end of the day. Like you said, it's all about numbers, right? James: Yeah, I mean, it's crazy nowadays, right? I mean with the market being as hot as it is right now, with so many people looking for deals and so many bidding war. So nowadays, the smarter thing that a lot of brokers and sellers are doing, they say day one hard money. Now, they lock you in. So you go into a bidding war, you pay this huge amount of hard money and sometimes they don't even give you early access., So now you're locked in. You can find a thousand and one things and yet we are locked in. Tim: No, I don't do that stuff. I don't play that game. You don't need to if your off-market direct to seller. If you're going through brokers, they're going to do that to you, you know. And there are some people who have crazy money and they're willing to risk that; I'm not willing to risk any of that stuff. A lot of people, they spend a lot of time on ROI - return on investment. I spend a lot of time on return on ROI - return of investment, you know, and making sure I get all my money back. I never ever want to risk principal.   I mean that deal, that's just too risky of a deal. If they want hard earnest money from day one and I haven't already walked the entire property, I'm not interested in doing it. I think once you get to a point where if you're partnered up with a great sponsor or you are a great sponsor yourself and you have the business acumen that like you have James or that I have like I'm able to posture up with these sellers now and kind of say, "Hey. Yeah, no problem. You can go steal somebody's earnest money. That's okay. You can go ahead and do that. But they're not gonna be able to close on this deal because you're lying about the condition of the property or the financials whatever. Or if you're willing to actually sell it to me, give me my opportunity to do my due diligence and shoot straight with me on everything, I promise you, I'm more capable of closing than any of the other people that you're getting bids from right now or you're getting offers from right now."  And so I've been able to kind of build up my credibility in that way where sellers are willing to take less money and offer me better terms than they would maybe with somebody else because they know that I can close on the property. They don't want to get dragged through the mud.  James: Correct. Yeah, this is very interesting, nowadays, the way the market is being played. They're putting all these handcuffs of hard money, day one. And there's another handcuffed where they said you must do lending with our own in-house lending. So that's another handcuff. There are two or three handcuffs that brokers are putting on sellers. And the third subtle handcuff that they do; nowadays, when they close, they send out an email saying that, oh, this buyer paid day one, you know huge amount of money $500,000. They're telling everybody else. Tim: They're trying to set that expectation.  James: If you want to come and buy deals nowadays, you better be ready. So many handcuffs are being put on buyers. But I think a lot of sellers, you know, if they want to work with a good buyer, people who want to really do business, they don't know want to just make the money on earnest money and waste a lot of time getting people to walk through all their units and getting their stuff all being nervous.  So just find a guy who's willing to do it and who is the true buyer. Who knows what he's doing and can close.  Tim: The good brokers with long-term visions and long-term goals, know how to find quality buyers and that's better than just anybody who raises their hand with earnest money, you know. In every hot market, there are people who are short-sighted, who got into real estate real quick just because they wanted to get rich quick, kind of a thing. And they'd rather just do it that way and then anybody who raises their hand, they're willing to go with and those aren't the brokers you want to work with. You want to work with the people who have been around the block a few times, who understand what a good buyer looks like, can build those ongoing relationships. Because as soon as the market shifts, if things cool off, it's going to clean out all the unqualified buyers and unqualified brokers as well. James: Correct. So, let's go to a bit more personal side of things. So what I like about you is you're very, very positive. So you like to look at life very positively and you know, it's hard to do because sometimes you always have something negative that comes in. So do you want to explain about in this business, yeah, you always want to say something negative that you always want to talk about but how do you maintain that positivity?  Tim: Yeah, I mean, you know, I told you the story when we met up a couple of weeks ago or a month ago. I mean, just less than 90 days ago, I was out golfing and I got rocketed to the face with a golf ball, 100 miles an hour from about 30 yards away. It shattered my upper maxilla bone. It knocked out four of my front teeth and shredded my gums. And my lip opened and I was bleeding like crazy. I look down. I'm like, oh, I feel my teeth dangling from my gums and I look down at the ground and I kind of took a knee to make sure I didn't pass out. I looked down at the grass, I'm like, "Man, this grass is really well-manicured; like beautiful grass here, on this golf course."  And I'm like, How the hell am I able to keep up such a positive attitude in this?" You know, I'm thinking about my thoughts. I'm very reflective in that regard. And I was like, "Well, here's why I can see it positive because I got hit my mouth and not in my eyeball or my temple. I could be blind or dead if this thing was an inch higher than where it was."           And so, man, I don't know if it's the law of attraction. You can call it God, you can call it, you know the universe and call it whatever but I think when you put the positivity out, it comes full circle. It's kind of like you reap what you sow kind of a thing and I sow seeds of positivity. And so, I jump in the golf cart and I get taken back to the clubhouse. You know, who's dining in the clubhouse? There are two dentists and an ER nurse having dinner in the clubhouse. They put me in there. They look at my teeth. They drop what they're doing. They take me to their dental office, 15 minutes down the road. They stitched me all up. They put my teeth back in and I'm able to save my teeth and 90 days later, you couldn't even tell that this whole thing happened. Like I'm still going through some cosmetic stuff, but overall like it was a terrible situation, but I think because I was positive it all just kind of came to fruition.  So, you know, one of the things I've always practiced is not saying I have to do something but saying I get to do something. When I go out to dinner with a bunch of my friends and I pick up the tab, they're like, "Dude, you don't have to do that." " No, I don't have to do it but I get to."  The reason that I do what I do is so that I can help people out and I can pay it forward. "Oh, hey, you don't have to cover that bill. You don't have to do this"  'No, but I get to."           I had to eat soup for about a month afterward, but I'm thinking you know, I'm eating a tomato bisque basil soup. I don't have to eat mud pies like people do on the other side of the earth. I don't have to walk two miles each way to go and get fresh water like people have to do on the other side of the earth and some people on this side of the earth. I get to eat soup, I get to eat something that's a bisque that has basil in it. Like are you kidding me? Like there are people who would kill to be able to eat that kind of stuff. I didn't have 14 teeth knocked out, I only had four teeth knocked out.  I think when you just compare it and you put it in that type of perspective of, man, it could have been way worse, you know, like the situation could have gone - and there are still people even with me with my teeth dangling from my mouth, being in that circumstance, I'm still in a better circumstance than a lot of other people who don't have any food, who don't have any shelter, who don't have any clothes, who don't have any support. They're being trafficked by like human trafficking like all that kind of crazy stuff.  Even when I have to go out and raise - I had to raise 7 million bucks for deals last month, and now I don't have to raise 7 million bucks. I get to raise 7 million bucks; that's a pretty awesome problem to have. And I think just putting it in that perspective of shifting your 'I-have-to' to 'I get to', will really make you more gratuitous or have more gratitude for life. James: Was it because of your parents or do you think because you just had some event in your life that you think now I have to change my time or it's just how you have been? Tim: That's a good question. My mom as always been very positive. My mom as always been, hey, you have something else to compare it to. Compare it to this, compare it to that. And I think that's probably what planted the seed of always looking at it from, "Yeah. You're right. I guess it could be way worse, right?" It could have been totally different circumstance. She always used to say, "Hey, if that's your biggest problem today, you've got a pretty good life, Tim." When I was growing up: "Ma, I don't know what I'm gonna do like my basketball just popped." "If that's your biggest problem today, it's a pretty good problem to have." You know, you're safe. You're secure, you're healthy, you have a family, you've got people who love you, you've got food with food on the table and clothes on your back and a roof over your head. Like all those kinds of things like you put in perspective. There's people dealing with a lot worse things. And yeah, I think my mom kind of rooted that into me maybe early on and it definitely stuck and man, I just show gratitude. Especially once you have kids, you know, and you realize man like all I want is their safety and their security and their healthiness and their happiness and as long as they're happy and I'm happy. That kind of a thing that's really amplified it over the past four years. I have a four-year-old and a two-year-old now. And so just putting things into in the perspective that way has been a big deal.  James: Awesome. Awesome. Is there one proud moment in your life that you think you will be remembering it for your entire life?  Tim: That's a good question, James. You've got some good questions there, buddy. James: I want you to think and answer.  Tim: Yeah, you know, I mean, is there one... James: One proud moment that at the end of your life, you're going to say that I'm really, really proud that I did that and it's going to be you know. Tim: Yeah, I don't know if it's one specific moment, but maybe just like kind of how I live my life. I try to do it on a daily basis and maybe it's not something profound. Maybe it's not something that's like one specific thing that was a catalyst. You know, I'm driving to the office today to come and talk to you and some dude cuts me off. Maybe he's got some priorities or something going on. I don't know what other people are going through, you know and for me to judge or get pissed off because somebody cut me off, why would I do that?   I'll tell you if there's a really proud moment, once my kids grow up to be decent human beings, you know, and making sure that I want to live my life as an example of what an exceptional life can look like. So I want people to be like, hey, if Tim Brax, some kid from a blue-collar family in a blue-collar town, outside of Cleveland, Ohio can build up a big portfolio and still maintain good health and still maintain positivity and still maintain great relationships with his wife and with his children, with his friends and still engage and and maybe not be balanced but have harmony in his life, like if this guy can do it, I know I could do it.  If I can inspire people, whether that be one moment in time by a Facebook post or an event that I host or being on a podcast, if I can inspire people to just be their best which is what I have on my wall here and that's not 'do' that's 'be' you know, that's like consumed that all together. It doesn't have to be the best. It would be your best. There's always gonna be somebody more capable, more resources, more whatever. You know, I don't think it's healthy to compare yourself to other people but to compare yourself to yourself and making sure that you're advancing on a daily, weekly, monthly and annual basis is a big deal. And so, I think I just try to make my kids proud, make my mom proud, make my wife proud, make my friends proud. Inspire other people and I try to do it more in the daily activity versus just do it one time and look at that one moment. I try to give back and try to - like I had suites to the Cavs games when LeBron was here in Cleveland. All right, and so when was that, two years year to go? Two years ago, I think. No, it was last year, I think. And so last year, I had a suite to the Cavs. I got the entire series for the first series. I figured who they're playing, but essentially when you buy a suite, you get it for the entire series, however many games they play at home and they played four games at home. And so, you know the first game I went to, I brought some business partners and was able to pay for the suite that way. And then, the second game I brought some family and the third game, I'm like, hey, I was excited to go but like I'm not as excited as I was maybe the first or second time and I'm like somebody else deserves this more than I do because I've already had this experience right? Like, how can I pay this forward?  And so I posted on social media, "I got a suite to the Cavs game. I have 18 tickets that I can give away, a couple of parking passes. It's stocked with food and drinks and whatever you guys want. Like does anybody know of a family or a few families that I can give these tickets to that maybe wouldn't have this experience on their own but really deserve because of how good of a people that they are?"  And man, like it got so much momentum and got so many shares and then the news picked it up and came and did a story on it. And I had about 5-600 applications that came through for people nominating other people to get tickets to this Cav suite. And so, it was actually really hard to break it down and essentially I found four or five families. I think five families that four tickets a piece that I gave the tickets to. And it was pretty easy to narrow it down to like 25 because I wanted somebody who had maybe faced adversity, overcame the diversity and then found a way to pay it forward; not just overcoming it but actually paying it forward and creating a difference.  So, you know, there was one girl whose sister died of an accidental overdose of drugs and now, this girl who's still alive, her younger sister goes around and speaks at different schools about opioid problems and drug problems and how to overcome that and different resources to plug into for that, you know. And so I'm like, wow, this girl, at the age of 16 years old is making an impact on the world; like she deserves some tickets. There was another gentleman who lost his daughter to a congenital heart defect. She was 3 years old, you know and loses his daughter to this congenital heart defect. And instead of like, I mean, I can only imagine how dark of a place he must have been in and he ends up opening up a nonprofit organization to help families with other kids with congenital heart defects to give them the support and help and the conversations and everything and making a massive impact up here in Cleveland, Ohio. This guy is such a good guy. I give him the tickets and he gives them to one of the people that are in his nonprofit, you know. And it's like, man, these people are just amazing individuals.           And so I found five awesome families like that, that we were able to give the tickets to and like doing stuff like that really makes me feel good. And what's even better is that there were 500 people who I was able to create a catalyst by doing this who now, 500 people are thinking in a positive way about people who make a positive impact on their life. And just that positive ripple effect that's created, I think is really, really powerful and it was really, really cool to see. James: Yeah. When I talk to you, I get very inspired because it's not about the portfolio of real estate or [49:17unintelligible]  rights, it's how you look at life and how you look at things. How you think positive and that's the most important when I look at a person. Tim: Yeah. And you do an awesome job with it, man. I mean, you realize that it's not the portfolio, it's not the money that's noble. It's what you can do with the money that's noble and utilizing it for good. I could afford a really expensive fancy exotic car and I drive a $20,000 Jeep just because I don't really care. I know that there's a bigger impact I can make by being a better steward of my Capital, putting it in more deals or paying it forward in ways like that. So I get more fulfillment from that than from maybe driving something fancy.  James: Yeah, even for me, I can't really imagine driving exotic car because, do I really need it?  Tim: At the end of the day, it'd be cool. I'd rather just go and rent one. I know I'd have buyer's remorse. I just know myself personally and I know that as soon as I bought it I'd be like, I don't really need this. And here's the thing. I like watches. I like clocks. I like taking nice vacations. I like traveling first class. I like that kind of stuff. I like making memories and traveling the world; I love all that. So that's where I get my drive from on making a lot of money. For other people, they like fancy cars, they like fancy houses; that's okay.  I got a good buddy, man, he drives a Rolls-Royce and has multiple hundred-thousand-dollar watches, you know. But I know he doesn't do it for flashed and to impress other people. He does it because when he looks down at his watch and when he gets in his car, he always sits back and he's like, "Man, I had to overcome some adversity, I had to go through some shit in order to get this watch. In order to be able to afford this car. And I've had to grow as an individual, as a person and make an impact on enough other people's lives, positively, that then the universe came back and gave me enough money to be able to afford this car and afford this watch." And so, I think it depends on perspective and that's how you look at it. Like I have nothing against people who have fancy nice things, material type things. Because I know he's one of the most giving people that I've ever met as well and so it's perspective.  James: Yeah, it's perspective. Yeah, awesome, Tim. So why don't you tell our audience how to get hold of you?  Tim: Yeah. I mean, I'm pretty active on social media; you can find me on Facebook Tim Bratz. I run my own Facebook account, you know, it's not somebody else running it. I do some education stuff on how to get involved in apartments and things but hit me up with a message there if you're looking for formal education. I give a lot of away a lot of free content, a lot of free insight and I try to provide a lot of value on social media and stuff so just connect with me on Facebook.  That's gonna be the best way and, yeah, man, James, I appreciate all the value that you give and all the value that you create and all the content that you put out there and, man, you're creating the ripple effect yourself on making a positive impact on people's lives. So appreciate you too, brother. James: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thanks for coming on the show. It was really a very inspiring show. I'm sure for me and for my listeners and everybody's going to be enjoying it.  Tim: Appreciate it, brother. Thank you so much. James: All right. Bye.

Stories in this episode: Jim feels conflicted about receiving a life-saving kidney until three words change his perspective; A surprise friendship leads Arthur to see the connection we have with others is far more precious than material possessions. SHOW NOTES Today's episode was sponsored by TOFW.   To see pictures, and find links to things mentioned in this episode, go here. To find out more about the themes we're developing for upcoming episodes, follow us @thisisthegospel_podcast on Instagram and Facebook :) TRANSCRIPT: KaRyn Lay:  Hey friends, I wanted to take a quick minute to say thank you. Thank you for sending us your stories on the pitch line. thanks for sharing the stories with your friends and your family and thank you for finding us on Instagram and Facebook. I know social media is a mixed bag and sometimes you really need to disconnect for a few minutes, or for a few days, or for a few weeks just to get your bearings. But social media also gives us the unique opportunity to have conversations about these stories that we're hearing together and we love talking with you. We love hearing what you loved about the episodes and how they've affected you. And we love the opportunity to talk back. So if you're on Instagram or Facebook, you can find us @thisisthegospel_podcast. We promise it'll add good things to your day. Now, let's get on with the stories.  Welcome to This Is the Gospel, an LDS Living podcast where we feature real stories from real people who are practicing and living their faith every day. I'm your host KaRyn Lay. Annyeonghaseyo! Okay, I know that sounded like I knew Korean really, really well. But I don't really speak any other language besides English. I tried to learn Spanish in high school and American Sign Language in college and I really tried to learn Korean when I lived in South Korea for two years working. But unfortunately, and despite my best efforts, it turns out, I'm pretty useless as a second language learner. Besides being able to communicate the kind of food that I want, which is very important, and where I'd like the taxi to turn, the only real words that I got down in all those years of praying for the gift of tongues, were Hello, "annyeong." And of course, thank you, "Gracias," "Dangsinboda." I think it's interesting that whether we're a toddler or 30-year-old, or it's our first language or 21st, words of gratitude are some of the very first that we learn. Offering gratitude and communicating gratitude are such a huge part of both our social life and our spiritual life. But "thank you" is only one part of the gratitude equation and today, what happens after "thank you" is the focus of the two stories that we have for this episode. Our first story comes from Jim, whose unique experience with gratitude helped give him a glimpse into what it might feel like when he comes face to face with his Savior. We recorded Jim's story remotely from his home in Pennsylvania, so you might notice a slight difference in the recording quality. Here's Jim Jim  (2:26)  It had been a late night as I was contacted by my mother and was told that she had been diagnosed with polycystic kidney disease. We talked about the fact that she might have to get dialysis for the rest of her life if she didn't get a transplant. We discussed the rigmarole around a transplant, and she was down and I could tell that she was struggling with it. My heart ached, worrying about what would happen to her. She did dialysis for about three or four years. Waiting for a kidney was a time of much anxiousness as a family. All of my siblings and I were tested, and none of us was a match. So not only were we not a match, but two of the four of us kids were diagnosed with the same disease. I was one of the two that were diagnosed. I remember being disappointed, but not really upset at first. I was still young and felt nothing would affect my health. I was healthy, I pretty much did anything I wanted. She finally received a kidney between 2000-2001 sometime. As the months and years ticked by, my anxiousness grew, and I feared that I'd suffer a similar fate as my mother. I followed up with a kidney physician in my town, we kept track of my blood pressure and my kidney function. I was eventually put on a donor list, which, you know, most of the time it takes a very long time to receive a kidney. Eventually, the doctors and I felt like a preemptive transplant would be the best situation for me—being as young as I was—from a live donor. So we decided to look up the two siblings that I had that did not have the disease to see if they were a match. My sister Christine was a perfect match, and she gladly agreed to donate one of her kidneys. Now, this was a time that, unfortunately, I have to confess that I was not living the Gospel life I should have. It had been years since I had really connected or reconnected with my church roots. I'd served an honorable mission but had not held on to what I knew to be true when I returned home. Why that was? I don't know why, but it happened. And I subsequently was at a time in my life that things were not the best with regard to my spiritual growth and development and actual participation in church. But after my sister was deemed a match, and committed to give me a kidney, my life and the way I was living became an issue. When I say it was an issue, I didn't change a whole lot in my behavior, but I was overcome with a sense of guilt and spiritual loathing. I didn't feel worthy or deserving of what my sister was willing to do. It takes great sacrifice to donate an organ. Things can go wrong during surgery, pre or post-surgery. It's not like getting a tooth pulled, it's a serious surgery and major veins and arteries are involved. I decided since I lived relatively close to Palmyra, New York, that I'd go and maybe spend some time in the grove.  I was searching for comfort from the Lord. I guess I thought perhaps that that was a good place to search for it. My wife is a nonmember of the church but is a strong Christian woman. I worried that she would wonder, you know, what the heck is going on with my husband? And I explained how I was feeling and that I wanted to go spend some time in the grove. She was more than supportive. I should also say that, although she was not interested in the church per se, with regard to converting or investigating the Church, she continuously hammered me about going to church and living the way I was brought up to live. So she also understood very well, what the grove meant and what had taken place there and why I wanted to spend some time there. It was a beautiful day in upstate New York that day. I remember some of it, but what stood out to me the most was the quiet that existed in the grove. I was alone there that day. There were no visitors or people walking around taking pictures. It was kind of the offseason. I was thankful that I could be alone. I remember how quiet it was and it had a great calming effect on me. I believe I was comforted. I don't believe I had a burning of the bosom or an earth-shattering experience in the grove, but it was quiet and reverent. And although I was comforted, I also felt that I needed to change some things in my life. I eventually resolved my guilt, to an extent, and allowed the surgery to take place. So the surgery was set for September 2007. I had the surgery down at the University of Pittsburgh medical center's Montefiore Hospital. My sister and her husband had flown in from Utah—that's where they still lived—to prepare for the surgery. The procedure on the day of surgery is quite unique. Typically, they take the donor down to pre-op, roughly a half-hour before the patient that's set to be the recipient of the organ. When they took me down, the place was a madhouse. There were people everywhere. There was a nurse that was barking out orders sending some people one way, and other people the other and it seemed like she was at this big desk. And it reminded me of a judge sitting there handing out sentences as people were wheeled in. When they wheeled me into my slot that they had there, I look to my right and lying on the gurney next to me was my sister Christine. She was in the process of answering questions probably for the 20th time. And meanwhile, I had an anesthesiologist asking me the same questions for the 20th time. Suddenly it seemed as though, while all this was going on, Chris and I were kind of just aware of each other. I finally looked over at her and said, "Hey."  She said, "What?"  I said, "I want you to know how much I love you." And she said, "I love you, too." I, again, said, "Hey," a few minutes later, and she again said, "What?"  I said, "Are you scared?"  And she said, "No, are you?"  I said, "No." We had both received Priesthood blessings and I was confident in the power of those blessings. Shortly thereafter, they started to wheel her away to surgery. And I once again said, "Hey."  And she said, "What?"  I think I remember her being somewhat annoyed. And I said, "Thank you." She looked back at me and said, "You are welcome." This was a moment in time between my sister and I, that was full of love and sacrifice. It was an example to me from what true sacrifice is and what Christlike love looked like. In the years since, thankfully, I've straightened myself out spiritually. I've never resolved in my mind, however, or my heart, the willing gift of my sister. It was an unselfish gift that I am forever grateful. And we have a bond that will live on as long as I live. As I study these days, particularly when studying about the Atonement of Christ, I often think of that exchange between my sister and I, in that pre-op room. I'm doing everything I can to prepare myself spiritually, live the gospel as best I can, and do the things that I know I should be doing. My hope is that someday when I stand before the Savior, I can apologize for the suffering my sins caused him. I hope to say "thank you" and I ultimately hope to hear, "You are welcome." KaRyn Lay  (13:11)   That was Jim. You probably caught the part of Jim's story where his desire to be a grateful recipient of his sister's kidney drew him towards the Savior. I think it's such a beautiful reminder that if we let them, the difficult things in our lives can lead us closer to Jesus Christ as we seek to be filled with gratitude. And I have to say, I am filled with more motivation to repent and get right with God as I consider Jim's vision of his reunion with our older brother. Our next story from Arthur illustrates how true charity can be found in the ways that we welcome one another into our lives. Here's Arthur. Arthur  (13:47) Like a lot of young 20 somethings, I was idealistic, and I felt like I need to go make my mark on the world and I'm going to go to Africa. I'm going to do aid work and I'm going to help people. Totally naive. When I had finished my degree at Brigham Young University, I had spent four years there, I was the captain of the men's soccer team. I loved, loved my time at BYU and playing for the soccer team and I knew I wasn't quite ready to be an adult yet. So I was kind of looking for an adventure. And the Olympics had come to Salt Lake City and an organization called, "Right to Play" that was started by Johann Olav Koss, a gold medal-winning speed skater from Norway came. And I kind of got excited about their work and what they were doing and the way I could maybe bring my soccer knowledge and experience to the refugees in war-torn Uganda. And so I interviewed and became a volunteer for "Right To Play." There was a moment when I was leaving U.S. soil on the airplane and flying over the Atlantic when I thought, "What have I gotten myself into?" And you fly over the Sahara, and you fly over all the desert of the Sudan, I think even as we were coming in, and it's very surreal, and it doesn't feel like anything you're comfortable or familiar with. I mean, I was very much out of my comfort zone for the first little bit. We were flying into a little tiny village called Arua, Uganda, which was the hometown of the Ugandan president, Idi Amin, who had just absolutely decimated certain tribes within Uganda, massive genocide taking place before that. Still a lot of scars. And you have, you know, as an American, as a white kid from Utah, you have a little bit of a sense for the legacy of not just Idi Amin and the Ugandan history, but the history of colonialism, the history of, you know, European and white colonizers in that part of the world. But, I mean, I was clueless. I was completely, completely clueless. And so here we were sort of, you know, there's a group of about six or eight of us who are coming in working with the UNHCR, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and tasked with the job of implementing sports programs for kids in these refugee camps. And the refugee camps were about an hour and a half drive on terrible dirt roads outside of Arua. You're working with refugees that are coming across the border from the Congo, and from the Sudan, from those civil wars, from those conflicts. And refugee life is a completely different equation than even this little bush town of Arua, where you can still get meals and there are little hotels and televisions to watch, you know, football matches on and some of the amenities. But you go into those camps, there is just nothing. Some people are new arrivals who are just sitting there with a pot to go to the bathroom and that's it. They're exposed to the elements, they don't know where they're going to get their next meal, they've traveled from these distances to just escape the violence of those conflicts. You're looking at real poverty, real desperation, real need, and you're supposed to have answers and you're supposed to have solutions. And the truth is, we really didn't. And here are these kids from America or Canada, or some from Europe, who are saying, "Hey, let's play sports together! Let's run soccer clinics." Who was I to sort of say, this is going to help children feel better, you know, psychologically, physically, this is going to help them overcome the trauma of war. Like, are you kidding me? Really? I mean, it's such a ridiculous notion that we would have anything to offer. But we're there and so you have to sort of pretend like you do have something to offer. I mean, I wanted to help people. I felt like I had benefited so much in my life from playing soccer. From that sport from the teamwork and the camaraderie and it was just something to, I mean, you're in the moment, right? And if giving these kids a moment to play football, so they could forget about the world they were coming from, they could forget about the poverty, they could forget about the violence, I wanted that to happen. That was my reason for going. But there was a part of me too if I'm honest, that was, you know, I wanted people back home, they were saying, "Oh, you're so brave. You're so altruistic. You're such a good person," right? And that sort of feeds your ego and then you get there and you realize you have no answers and there's so much hubris. I asked myself every day I was there, whether or not we should even be there. It was that complicated. Which is why, and I'll get to the point of the story when we met Ayub and interviewed him to be our driver—we had to buy a vehicle and have some way to transport ourselves back and forth between the village of Arua where we'd get supplies. And then we'd go out to the refugee camps and stay for a week or two at a time sometimes because it was just hard to go back and forth. And we were trying to service two different refugee camps with populations of over 50,000 people in each of those camps: Rhino camp, and Invepi camp. And so we go through all of these interviews with these different drivers, potential drivers, right? And they're desperate for money, they're desperate for a job. And you see the tangible dependence that they have on our being there, even though we don't have real solutions to these long, systemic problems that are occurring in the refugee camps, right? Displacement, war, poverty, violence, illness, like we haven't, we have no answers, but we've got to find a driver to get us over. That's our only task. And so their motivations and our motivations sort of gets complicated too, which is when Ayub walks in. And he's missing a tooth, and he's laid back and it was almost like he couldn't care if he got the job or not. And we take him up this like big, rocky mountain thing to see how his driving skills are. And we and we do things like put in American rock music to just see how he'll handle it. And he just rolls down the window, puts one arm out, drives with one hand on the wheel, completely laid back. And then while he's driving tells us the story of how he missed his tooth, how his big front tooth was missing. Because on another caravan on another job for another NGO, the truck had rolled, and it rolled into a river, and he dove in to try and save somebody and busted his tooth on a rock. And we're like, that's our guy. We're hiring him. He's amazing. I started to sort of develop a friendship with Ayub and became very, very close with him, closer than some of my other colleagues even. I was so close to him he invited me into his home. And Ayub was Muslim and he was the first Muslim that I knew well and I knew personally, it was my first experience with that religion. And so I was in Uganda long enough that as Ayub and I started to become friends, it happened to be the holy month of Islam coming up, or Ramadan, when they fast from sunup to sundown. And it's a time of sort of Thanksgiving, but also special focus, religious focus, but it was a sort of a poignant, intense spiritual time. And we knew Ayub was going to be participating in Ramadan, he was going to be fasting. That meant while we were out at the refugee camps, and we were eating, he was not going to be eating. There's already not a lot of resources, it's hard to get food. You know, we're buying chickens on the side of the road and we're, you know, having people in the refugee camp slaughter goats for us, and it's a big deal to eat and he was going to be foregoing that. So it became really meaningful to me and deepened our friendship when he was willing to share that religious experience with me. And we were traveling back and forth between the camps and its long, dusty, terrible road. Sometimes if it was in the rainy season, there's mud and cars are sliding off the road. And as soon as the sun would go down during Ramadan, he would pull over and walk into a stranger's hut who had prepared a meal for anybody who happened to be traveling through or traveling by. And he would always include me and bring me into that intimate, sort of brotherhood of Islam that was especially poignant during Ramadan. But it occurred to me when we were— not just during Ramadan, but all throughout my time in Uganda, I had nothing in common with Ayub. I mean, really, nothing in common. And so one day when he said—we were driving back from one of these Ramadan meals, you know, he just turned to me and, and said, "Tomas," they called me Thomas, not Arthur. They couldn't pronounce my name very well. He said, "Tomas when we breathe, we breathe in the name of God." And I thought that's the only thing we have in common. It's just the air we breathe. We don't have the same religion, we don't have the same socio-economic, we're from different continents. And it was so meaningful to me. I was so grateful that my young, naive idealism could be manifested in a tangible, practical way through this man. That all the things I believed about the commonality of humanity was real and it was true, it wasn't just a good idea. And it manifested itself through Ayub. When the only thing we had in common was the air we breathe, but it came from God, we had the same maker, we had the same Heavenly Father.  He used to like to put his finger up to my finger and push really hard, our index fingers would touch and he would say, "Tomas, you are my brother." And make sure we made contact like that. For me, that was important, that two people, we could transcend race, we could transcend religion, we could transcend a history of colonialism and violence. We could transcend all that stuff and we really could be unified. We could really be brothers. I didn't feel like I was an imposter or I was a wannabe white savior figure, I felt like I was Ayub's friend. So when I had to break a rule of my NGO to take the vehicle to drive him to another village close to the Congolese border for his mother's funeral, I didn't think twice about it. I did it because Ayub was my friend and he didn't see me as just a means to an end. He didn't see me as money or a resource. It was a friend helping his friend get to his mother's funeral in a faraway village. And that relationship, I think, carried me through my six months there and we're not in contact now. And you know, I have no idea what's happened to him. But because of that closeness and that recognition that I was more than just a foreigner who was coming in with ideas about how to save the world and fix things, I mean, how ridiculous is that. But he allowed me to just be me and to see me for who I was to and not just an interloper who's caused a lot of problems in that part of the world for him and his people. But as a true brother. He should not have seen me as a brother, but he did. What Ayub taught me is to be grateful for connection more than for things. I mean, the things are easy to see and to and to assess, and to make a judgment on. But the harder thing is to find a way to connect with somebody that cuts through all of that stuff, all of the labels and all of the layers of identity that we carry around with us based on our religion, our skin color, our gender, all of those things. They end up just stacking up so many walls and obstacles to getting to the heart of connecting with somebody. And so when you can find someone you can cut through all of that nonsense with and see them for who they really are, that's when I feel welcome. That's when I think what gratitude means and what feeling welcome means and when real charity can live. I always come back to that line he said to me during Ramadan, "Tomas, when I breathe, I breathe in the name of God." And every breath is a gift. KaRyn Lay  (27:16) That was Arthur. When we breathe in, we breathe in the name of God. There is so much that can divide us in this world right now. And when we think about what connects us, what really connects us, like Arthur and Ayub, the breath, the air that we breathe, that is filled with God, well then we are filled with gratitude for all the things. And I think it actually makes saying, "you are welcome" that much easier. This interplay of gratitude and charity is such an interesting concept for me and one that I honestly had never really thought of until I listened to these stories. I started to think about the words "You're welcome." There's something in the way that Jim envisioned the savior offering His Atonement so freely and with such love I mean, at this point in my social development, saying "you're welcome" in response to someone's expression of gratitude is really nothing more than an idiom or reaction like saying, "bless you" after someone sneezes or "sorry," when you accidentally walk into a wall, or at least that's what I do. It's rote, it's automatic. And while it means something, it doesn't really mean all that it could. But, what if like Jim's sister Chris, we really could dig into "your welcome" and mean it with all the possible depth inherent in the phrase. You know, in Spanish when someone says "Gracias," you reply with "De nada," which is loosely translated to mean, "it was nothing." In Korean, when someone says "gomabseubnida," you reply with "cheonman-eyo," which is a polite way of saying "No, no don't thank me." But in English, and a few other languages, we get to say "you are welcome." Think about that. It's really actually an amazing thing to say to another human being, an acknowledgment of our agency and intent to offer ourselves and our service with the truest charity, the pure love of Christ. You are welcome to what I've just given you. You're welcome. What might change in me if I started to say that with some intent? Now listen, I don't want to get all creepy about it. Like I'm not going to start staring deeply into stranger's eyes when I open a door for them at the grocery store and pronouncing "you're welcome," as if it was a blessing upon generations of their family. But maybe I could start to do things that I do for others with the kind of charity, the pure love freely given, that when you say "thank you," and I say, "You're welcome," even in a perfunctory way, I really mean it. No resentment, no obligation. You are welcome. And maybe the key to gaining that kind of welcoming heart is to start with our own "Thank you's." Elder Uchtdorf suggested that as we develop a sense of gratitude for all that we've been given, and gratitude for the things that we have in common because of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, we can't help but be filled with charity towards others. In his April 2014 general conference address, "Grateful In Any Circumstances" he said, "In any circumstance, our sense of gratitude is nourished by the many and sacred truths we do know. That our Father has given his children the great plan of happiness, that through the Atonement of His Son, Jesus Christ, we can live forever with our loved ones. It must have been this kind of testimony that transformed the Savior's apostles from fearful, doubting men, into fearless, joyful emissaries of the master. When the apostles recognized the risen Christ, when they experienced the glorious resurrection of their beloved Savior, they became different men. Nothing could keep them from fulfilling their mission. They accepted with courage and determination, the torture, humiliation and even death that would come to them because of their testimony. They were not deterred from praising and serving their Lord. They changed the lives of people everywhere. They changed the world." That testimony of the Savior and His Atonement filled the apostles with gratitude and that gratitude fueled their gift to the world as they taught and offered themselves to the disciples of Christ. They were filled to the brim with "You are welcome." Just as Arthur and Ayub's friendship was filled to the brim with "You are welcome," and Jim and Chris's exchange of a kidney was filled to the brim with "You are welcome." This is possible, I believe because first, they understood that when they breathe in, they breathe in the name of God. And as Arthur said, "Every breath is a gift." Elder Uchtdorf continued with this, "You do not need to see the Savior as the apostles did to experience the same transformation. Your testimony of Christ born of the Holy Ghost can help you see the bright future that the Redeemer of the world has prepared." I hope this week as we seek to have a little bit more gratitude for the sacrifice of our Savior and its power in our own lives, that will, in turn, put just a little more meaning behind every one of our "your welcome's" as we strive to become more like Him. That's it for this episode of "This Is the Gospel." Thanks for joining us today. And thank you to Jim and Arthur for welcoming us into their stories and their faith. We'll have the transcripts of this episode along with some pictures and a link to Elder Uchtdorf's talk in our show notes at LDSliving.com/thisisthegospel. All of our stories on this podcast are true and accurate as affirmed by our storytellers. If you have a great story about your experience living the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we want to hear from you on our pitch line. Leave us a short three-minute story pitch at 515-519-6179. You can find out what themes we're working on right now and what we need for the pitch line by following us on Instagram and Facebook @thisisthegospel_podcast. If you love the stories that we've shared, please leave us a review on the Apple Podcast app or on the Bookshelf PLUS+ app from Deseret Book. We love to hear your thoughts about certain episodes, and every single review helps more people to find this podcast.  This episode was produced by me, KaRyn Lay, with story producing and editing by Katie Lambert. It was scored, mixed and mastered by "Mix At Six Studios," our executive producers Erin Hallstrom. You can find past episodes of this podcast and other LDS Living podcasts at LDSliving.com/podcasts. Annyeong!        

Remember that one game that despite how terrible it looked was one of your all time favs? How bout those games as beautiful as can be, yet somehow flaming trash heaps in gameplay. This episode we give our personal picks for best of the worst, and the worst of the best. Episode Transcription: The below is a machine based transcription of this episode. Sorta like Skynet if it was 2 years old, and wanted a cookie. Take it with a grain of salt. Jake 0:01 Episode 10 the good, the bad, and the ugly Today onWulff 0:07 peskiGP 0:28 Hello and welcome everyone to press B to cancel. My name is Guy friend. And with me today we have our usual days of rapscallions to my left is where we'll say hello werewolf. Hello werewolfGP 0:44 aptGP 0:47 also with me today sick JakeJake 0:49 here buddy glad to be hereGP 0:52 and of course, Polish 109Palsh 0:56 Whatever happened to polish runaway nevermindWulff 1:00 Yeah, we had to let him go.Palsh 1:03 Yeah, aGP 1:05 lot of turnover in the police departments, there can be only one. There can be only at pulse post is the equivalent title to Highlander if you're Canadian.Jake 1:16 Alright, so that's a worldwide sensation. I'm sorry, everybody in every country loves Highlander.GP 1:22 That's true. That's true. Okay. Alright, so today, we're going to be discussing kind of a variety. It's a little bit of a different show tonight. Typically, we just take one game or one series, and we discuss our experiences, our likes or dislikes. Tonight, we're going a little bit different. The title of the episode tentatively was called the good, the bad and the ugly. If you don't know what fugly means, have one of your ugly friends explain it to you. So essentially, the idea of this episode is that we can all acknowledge the great Games, they look good, they play good, the sound is great. And we can all acknowledge the crap games, they look horrible. They sound horrible. There are no redeeming qualities. So tonight we're discussing the ones the games in between games that either look gorgeous, but are otherwise devoid of anything meaningful. We will call those Travolta's or the ugly games that have a lot of heart. We're going to call those quasi motos. Okay, so those are the two categories today. I'm going to start us off and then we'll discuss and you know, go around the table as we always do, but we're going to start off with the ugly but great or quasi modo category. And I tell you what, guys, let's just go through different video game systems. We'll start with the eight minute video games. For me it's any s, which is going to be Bionic Commando. Okay, so I love this game. I played it on stream recently, and I'm always reminded about how much I love it but truly Fully the color palette is obnoxious. There's not the greatest animations between your character or the bad guys that you're trying to kill. And it's repetitive as hell. So that's kind of the idea here. Let's talk about Bionic Commando. And if you guys agree, let me know if you disagree. Let's have that conversation. werewolf. What do you think?Wulff 3:20 You know, I've actually not played a lot of Bionic Commando. I think the last time I played it was, gosh, I was seven years old. So almost 30 years ago. Good grief. So I can't say much to it. But I can say that from what I've seen people play on Twitter recently. It's not a pretty game. But I do see a lot of people playing it on Twitter recently. So that must be some somewhat test some testament to its quality.GP 3:51 Sure, yeah. Okay, so it's a popular enough game. It's not always the best to look. So if you're going to watch Bionic CommandoUnknown Speaker 4:00 A beer to firstGP 4:02 beer or do you first gotJake 4:04 Yep. enhancerGP 4:07 Okay, sick Jake. Paul What do you guys think about Bionic Commando?Palsh 4:12 We go I'm sick regoing sick Paul shirt Jake 109 Who's going first?Unknown Speaker 4:18 we merge together we are oneGP 4:21 yeah give us that sexy fusion voice yeahWulff 4:23 that trunks fusion voiceGP 4:31 Alright, so I guess we'll go with Jake first.Jake 4:34 What do you think about Bionic Commando supplying commando? I played this quite a bit as a kid. I'm just trying to struggle how much variety was there in the enemy'sGP 4:45 will as far as the enemy sprite goes? All of your entry level guys are pretty much the same. They were maybe one or two like older throwers or you know rocket launcher guys, but otherwise Yeah, all the same.Jake 4:56 Yeah, like none of them stand out to me. In hindsight when I kind of Going back to that game, I don't remember anything notable graphic wise, I remember that. I remember the back color palette like you mentioned, for sure. It's poor choice. They're all they really remember but graphics is the main character. As a kid, I thought he's got a doc rip off with that weird mechanical arm. That's all I got from the game graphic wise. Nothing memorable at all. I didn't care for Gameplay wise, it was actually quite fun. I mean, mechanics were solid.GP 5:27 Right? Yeah. And I think that's exactly right. I think the biggest mechanic or the biggest saving grace of this game would be the mechanics, no jumping, just extendo arm. And also I to me, I love the sound. This is for me one of the rare games where the not just the soundtrack. But the the, the noises of the game. Were so perfect. And for me they invoke such a strong nostalgia, but I mean yeah, that's I think that's exactly kind of the heart of what the category is. So post, what do you think about commandoPalsh 6:01 I, it's pretty much the same as Jake is like, I don't remember a lot. But the things I do remember that kind of stuck in my brain like I remember not being able to jump and always wanting to swing like Spider Man basically, ever since now I was like, Yeah, I want to do this I remember playing the game and I think this is so cool. But I never thought it was amazingly good luck and I just thought that was the coolest idea. So I think sure yet looks was no, but you know, gameplay was I thought it was fun. So I agree with you.GP 6:36 It's got that heart that addictive quality that after you leave the game, like if you haven't beaten it, you know you're wanting to go back and continue or you know, just pick up where you left off. Yeah. Now I'll say this. I don't have this for every category, but the eight bit ugly but great category. I have an alternate or an honorable mention. And I'll say this real quick, Final Fantasy the riginal a bit Final Fantasy not a pretty game, but damn it was amazing. I no no no you guys know I love Final Fantasy. And it was great for what it was and what it sparked. But going back it is it is dated.Wulff 7:16 Yeah those those tiny backgrounds and battle with just four characters in a box and a little background and then the rest of its blackGP 7:27 it's it's a sexy older sister, I guess technically the sexy younger sister of Oregon Trail,Jake 7:34 which,Wulff 7:35 I mean, the game was based on d&d, so it was leaps and bounds from pen and paper numbers, but they still hadn't found their visual groove yet by any means.Jake 7:51 Of course, but the enemy sprites and the boss sprites that game were extremely detailed and there's a lot of variety and the monsters you face because I thought about This game is well for my list. I didn't do it because of the variety of monsters on the graphics, the sprites.GP 8:05 Yeah. Okay. See, I could definitely concede to that. But you know, to the point of it was inspired by or trying to invoke d&d as a great point because d&d requires a lot of good imagination to fill in the gaps visually and I think that is the point to Final Fantasy that I'm trying to make is there's some cool ideas there. But with the limited motion and animation you really have to use your you know, theater of the mind as it were to to fill in those those gaps.Palsh 8:37 That's pixel or a nutshell for me, so I agree. But you can get some effing cool pixel art that said, Okay,GP 8:45 I don't know No, no, that's good. Actually polish. Let's go to your what's your quasi modo game, the uglyPalsh 8:52 but great game, this one stuck out to me and just because it I was felt like it looked like an entire game to me. Kind of That meant that made it with an any s game and it still had kind of elements of mostly Atari boys blob, because the graphics were really great. But the whole premise this game was hard, I still won't touch it because I'm just I don't have the fear of failure. But the fact that you could, you know, give them like 40 different jellybeans and have all these different things like you could turn your blog into a trampoline or a ladder or a friggin rocket you know, it's it's really cool but the graphics didn't keep up but I thought considering how ugly it was it still was pretty fun. And so that's that's just what stuck out for me.GP 9:44 Yeah, I I own a boy and his blog and I have started a boy this blob but I think the graphics and I hate to say it this way because it makes me sound so shallow. But I think the graphics is prevented me from really getting into it. So I think that It's a bit of a home run for choice there. But I can't speak to the greatness of the game just to the just to the ugliness as far as the sprite quality. And you know the image quality in general. Yeah, everything isWulff 10:15 the design choices as far as the characters, they're very ugly. Yeah, there's not a lot of detail. However, they're really smoothly animated for how ugly they are, which I always found kind of odd.Palsh 10:28 Yeah, and I think that's part of it, too, because they ended up it was so simplistic. I think they ended up getting a little bit more leeway when it came to animating them.Wulff 10:37 Yeah, but yeah, that that game is definitely a favorite of mine. I had that growing up. I don't know what happened to my copy. I don't remember getting rid of it. But I don't know if it got lost in a movie or I did eventually trade it in or something. That is a game I put far too many hours into as a child. Oh my goodness. Like, I can probably still remember What most of the jelly beans do. That's how much I played it. Catch up a catch a pole.Palsh 11:07 Yes.Wulff 11:09 That is licorice ladder root beer rocket.GP 11:13 I had a root beer rocket oneJake 11:17 I think I agree with GP on the terms of the graphics is what probably turned me off in the game as well. I didn't really finish it. I spent I made it to the offworld section and that was interesting. But you spend majority of your time on the ground and there's such a limited palette of colors down there. It's all brown and black. I found it extremely dull.Wulff 11:36 Yeah, they're their color choices definitely reflected what they went back to in the early 2000s just with less bloom. Right? Yeah.GP 11:44 Well, Jake, what What game do you have for us? Ugly but lovable for the eight bit?Jake 11:52 I mean, I mean, some guys know me. If I'm not complaining about a game on I don't like it. And they'll go on game I complain about all the time is our type for the master system this game is brutally hard for me. It took me forever to beat it and I had to use a continue code to do it. It's great The gameplay is classic to me the bosses are awesome. There's also mechanic where if you don't be the boss is fast enough to take away from you. There's you know, upgrades. It's a great game, poured it on literally everything. But the matches is the one is the one I played the most. But the thing that makes it ugly is there slow down constantly, there's flickering every other level. There's one level I want to say it's the third one where the background is this organic, pulsing like red color. But that's fine, but the enemy shots are also red. So because of the poor choice and colors of the background, the enemy bullets, you can't see where the bullets are half the time in addition to all the flickering. So like the graphics are just terrible, terrible. I've seen this game in arcades and it looks 10 times better. It's a shame because it's a fantastic game gameplay. It's plays well for me in any system. I know of the Master System and I love it there but the graphics on that system just can't keep up.GP 13:06 Gotcha. Okay, so I hear you saying that you've only beaten it with the continue code. So what you mean is you've never beaten it. Little bit of shady games each otherGP 13:30 sick burger.GP 13:33 Wolf, what do you got for us for ugly URL now? I'm sorry. Let's not do that yet. A portion where what do you guys think about our day?Wulff 13:40 Um, I've never been a fan of shoot 'em ups and bullet hills. So our type was one I didn't really get into. TheyPalsh 13:49 kind of blend together for me. Not that I'm saying it was a bad game or anything, but I can't tell the difference between archetype and Gradius. And anybody who's a shoot 'em up fan right? I was probably wanting to strangle me so I apologize but either way, honestly, you're not wrong. There are very few shooters that pull me in.GP 14:09 Yeah, I'm with you. I think the only one that really stood out for me was like life force. And that's that's really the only one I paid attention to. I'm kinda like you guys with that so I will have to take sick Jake's word on this one. Yeah, but I believe especially I mean, yeah, I've never heard of anything like that where the bullets are the same color as the background. Obviously that is a horrible designWulff 14:35 that's that's a controllers are are right there.GP 14:38 Yeah.Palsh 14:39 It ends up being any s heard.Jake 14:42 It belongs in any as hard but different system.Palsh 14:44 Yeah. Gotcha. Master Cisco. doesn't have the same ring to it.GP 14:49 doesn't roll off the tongue as much. Yeah.Wulff 14:53 Alright, so what do you got for us on your quasi game, the game that everybody is familiar with. The Ninja for Master System but this game, the gameplay is an absolute blast. You're running around you're throwing jerkins at people you get upgrades to your stuff like movement upgrades, weapon upgrades, special attacks, all sorts of crap the enemies there's all sorts of enemy types they have different a eyes the levels get mixed up summer like a lot of them are just you know, go from the bottom scroll upward. Occasionally it's like scroll from right to left but they've got like the river level where you're trying to move from log to log and kill enemies before they get you stuff like that. They did a lot of creative things with the game, but boy did it not look good at all. There were a lot of sprites and they were a lot of ugly pixels. That the colors like they use really bright colors, their eye catching colors. But there's so much of one color that covers the screen at a time that it just it fries your eyeballs a little bit. That that bright neon green grass.Palsh 16:11 Yeah, everything looks green afterwards. It's like you're wearing you must be wearing like some like tinted sunglasses afterwardsWulff 16:19 Yeah, there's there's almost there's really very little detail on any of the locations in the game. You got to use your imagination a lot. But that game is so much fun. And it's it's a hard one. So it's one of those ones that's like punishing and you want to go back.Palsh 16:38 I didn't even know that was for Master System. The first time I actually played was on like a bootleg 31 and one NAS card and I had no idea that this is bootleg up until like, a few years ago so I was like, This is amazing. Oh, nevermind.Jake 16:53 Spiders in that you also picked a Master System game. Do you think it's something to do with that system and that just couldn't put out The solid graphic power to handle those games because there's a few other games that are also not that great graphic wasWulff 17:05 no because there are some actually really pretty Master System games to the the Master System graphically had superior capabilities to the ns but you have to remember they were a lot more companies pumping games out on the IDS it's like it's it was the platform that was supported versus the platform that wasn't it doesn't matter how much power it has if people don't know how to make use of it.Jake 17:30 Like I'm just thinking of the Sonic games, and some of them are really terrible. The slowdown is ridiculous lots of flickering like it is. It's disappointing because there aren't great games on the system is one of my favorite systems.Wulff 17:41 Well the Master System. The Master System is just a Game Gear. It's it's a Game Gear Fit to TV resolution, or rather, at the Game Gear is a Master System fit to a smaller resolution. They're they're the exact same architecture. That's why all the emulators run both of them.Jake 18:00 Interesting. Okay,GP 18:01 okay, so that's our that's our time for a bit games. Let's move on to 16 bit if you guys are ready for that, is that good? Sure. Holy cow. Is that that claw?Palsh 18:14 Yeah, we'll call theWulff 18:17 next bitGP 18:22 is one of those rare occasions where I wish I had worn pants now? Well, I'll tell you what wolf blitzer with you 16 bit ugly but great. What do you think and start race effects?Palsh 18:34 Yeah.Wulff 18:36 Not absolutely good. It had a lot of character in the graphics, but it was not pretty at all. The, for whatever reason, I'm pretty sure those What is that? gas. That gas station with the chevron? Pretty sure those Ever on cars were inspired by this game.GP 19:03 Or vice versa. But it's a goodWulff 19:06 Yeah, I've I you know what, they dropped it on the switch this week. And I went back and played it. And I had so much fun with it. Oh my goodness. It was a lot of fun. And I used to play it a lot to player which I mean, you can play two player races against the AI as well. Which is pretty taxing on a Super Nintendo. Which I'm pretty sure that killed the frame rate big time, so it made it even uglier. It was still somehow playable. And it was a lot of fun. I really really enjoyed that one.Jake 19:41 Yeah, I was gonna say the only time I saw framerate that bad post mariokart the switch was after watching stunt racer x like, it's like three FPS. It'sGP 19:52 you know, that brings up I mean, we'll have to see how the rest of the show plays out but I've had in the back of my mind like that. This big question mark of the two categories today, how many sports games or how many racing games ultimately are going to be referenced? So we're going to chuck that down as you know, the first one I suppose for, for racing, but that's, that's interesting to me. I think that's a good pic. Absolutely. But I'm glad you chose that because, well, that was on my short list of like five games. I was so hesitant to pull out as a racing game or a sport themed game. Because those really didn't hit their stride until you know much later. But I like that one pulse. What do you got for usPalsh 20:34 on 16 bit mine is pretty much the 16 bit argument all over again from from a pit I've got a game that was hard that I loved, but the same kind of problem lemmings and I hate saying it because let me look terrible Lamine, but they're, you know, like they're like six pixels each. So you can't really complain too much, but the idea behind it again, was so cool like you could make one guy stop everybody else Another one would start digging and other woman started digging upwards and whatever. So game itself was just great. The music is probably one of the top five for like Super Nintendo for me for for soundtracks. But I just remember and it never bothered me about the graphics I'm just saying it's just that they don't look great.GP 21:26 I tell you what I appreciate here is Forgive me for saying it this way. This shame in your voice when you said lemmings? It's almost like you know, it's 3am I've had a few drinks I'm lonely. I'm going to call lemmings and not tell anybody about it the next day, so I love that See, that's why I love this. This idea for the for the episode. You sneak that Kelly? Yeah, you got me good. No, I love that. I think that's a great choice. And I think we've all done that with either lemmings or a game like lemmings were like ah I just want to want to save my appetite but I'm not proud of it let's let's play lemmingsWulff 22:05 yeah that's good. What do what do you guys think about lemmings? That's actually another game where despite the ugliness of the palette, and you know, the little tiny characters that you can barely make out, they were really smoothly animated and they can eat a lot of information with what 15 pixels.Palsh 22:22 Yeah, that here but what they were doingUnknown Speaker 22:26 that's pretty impressive.Palsh 22:28 Yeah. So they, they definitely went for function over form. And they I think they succeeded. So I mean, that's that's saying, Oh,GP 22:38 yeah, it's, it's a great game. It's that argument again, it's got a great personality.Jake 22:45 Okay, all right. The backgrounds, okay, granted, not all the backgrounds are your hot redhead, okay? But a lot of them look fine to me. There's one I played on the Genesis so 16 bit and the one level or there's couple levels with the forest theme. I thought that looked amazing. And the fact that you could dig through the leaves of the tree and everything looks great to me.Palsh 23:08 Yeah, I can see your point there.Jake 23:10 Plus the intro was funny. I thought the intro was well animated.Palsh 23:13 Yes, true.Jake 23:14 I like six pixels. What are you going to do, right? There's only so much you can do with six weeks one character.Palsh 23:19 And now you see why I feel guilty even saying it because it's like, there's so much charm to this game. And considering what they've done with it. SoGP 23:27 I think it's a great game that conveys exactly what it needed to but you're right. There's not much frill to it outside of like visually, it's not arresting in a positive way.Wulff 23:39 Yeah, it's not something that ever made me stop and look when I saw it on a screen anywhere. But playing it I could not put it down.GP 23:48 Yeah, it's a game you play in your own home. Like if you had gone to Walmart and got on the display, you'd be like not here lemmings. We can know each other but nobody can know I'm going to sound like a jerkPalsh 24:04 Just you wait I'll get you backGP 24:07 okay all right so polished one or nine with lemmings subject. What do you got for us? 16 bitJake 24:14 16 bit So you mentioned earlier about racing games and this is technically a racing game. It's unit racers for the snice Oh man, IPalsh 24:21 forgot about that.Jake 24:22 So I don't know if you guys have played this game before. cyclesPalsh 24:26 Yeah, I was like yeah, just cycles without right.GP 24:29 Yeah, I rememberJake 24:29 Yeah. It's the weirdest concept for a video game I've seen in a while. But I love the hell this game I got it at a US store for like 10 bucks. Graphic wise. Literally you do you guys said it. You're just a unicycle no writer. And the tracks are basically this candy stripe. You know line that loops around and goes left to right. There's not much going on graphic wise but Gameplay wise the tricks system in it. There's like a dozen different tricks you can do with your your bike. You know flips and cartwheels, all kinds of crazy stuff. And you need to do those tricks in order to build speed and momentum. And you kind of get tied up in the different modes. Like some of the modes are focused on doing the stunts, and the ones are about speed. Some are just like, you know, marathon and length. There's a lot of variety, and tracks in the game. The game plays outstanding. The only problem is, it's a lot of them with the same precursor to Tony Hawk'sPalsh 25:23 Pro Skater. And a lot of waysWulff 25:26 Yeah. Now that you mentioned it, yeah, that game did a ton of stuff for being a 2d side on racing game.GP 25:34 Yeah, but I think when you can make the argument that if Marble Madness makes you look like a chump, then Okay, you know, yeah. Well, they might be but you can't tell because there's there's just no way no, no, I think that's a good and you're right, like, that's that's their kind of racing thing as well. So that's, that's interesting. I remember the game I don't remember much of playing it though, but I can see it in my mind. And yeah, I agree. I think that's a good good entry. WhatWulff 26:06 do you guys think? I would agree that that game was not a whole lot to look at, like it was cleanly animated. But there was a is literally, you know, the track is just a candy striped bar on the ground that moves around. And then you're a unicycle no character on the unicycle. You're just a unicycle doing stunts and tricks and jumps and bouncing around and zooming along. So it was it was a limited presentation type of game. I wouldn't sayGP 26:38 yeah, but werewolf the way that you just described it, like the you're a unicycle going around doing tricks and bumps and jumps. I if you said that to me, I would actually I would want to pick that up the way you just presented that actually had me interested. I'm like, Oh shit, maybe I should play this again. It was an absolute blast. It really was. I played the crap out of it. Good. I mean, that's, that's the heart and soul of this, this category, so that's good. I'll jump in now with my 16. But I was torn between two. So I'm going to pick the little, the one that's a little bit more controversial, just because it'll be a better discussion, but I was thinking about doing Starfox but I think we can all agree it did not age well it was not great, but it's a fun game. I know. Jake loves it. But what I'm gonna I'm gonna, what I'm what I'm gonna officially state is the original Mortal Kombat. Now I love most Mortal Kombat. It's, you know, in the series, but if you look at the first Mortal Kombat, and when I first played that I played it around the same time as Street Fighter two. So comparatively Street Fighter two, crisper cleaner, brighter, smoother. And to me Mortal Kombat, though I enjoy it. The first one was very clunky you hear how stressingPalsh 27:56 though I enjoyed, you know, he's he Doing this rightGP 28:00 because I Well, there's there's points coming in later polish. Their Mortal Kombat will make other entries in the future. I you know, starting with Mortal Kombat two, great franchise. And if you look at this disparity between how poorly the first foot looks and plays, compared to MK two, that's kind of the crux of my argument for Mortal Kombat. If they ended the Mortal Kombat series with the first one, it wouldn't have made the list but out of all of it, yes, MK one. Not that great, in my opinion, fun to play, but just pretty ugly.Palsh 28:38 You know, I can get beyond that. I thought it was really cool to see Street Fighter two, and had all the way smoother animations and stuff but I mean, they weren't taking, you know, real life models and trying to digitize them. So the the motions and the animations were so much more fluid because you're working with the cartoon versus real life. So it was fun. Don't get me wrong, but, you know, I thought it looked pretty bad.GP 29:05 Yeah, it's the video game equivalent to spawn the live action movie. Yeah. Yeah, it didn't necessarily look that great. Also, some of the acting was hit or miss. But in the end, there's something about it that I still love. But yeah, well what do you think about that Mortal Kombat? Ugly but great or just a game? What do you think? I thinkWulff 29:25 it's just a game. I was never drawn into Mortal Kombat. Like all my friends were a I mean, I was in the initial rush of it. Yeah, it was like, Oh my gosh, they're just brutally bashing each other's skulls in and there's blood and Oh, man. But at the end of the day, I was still kind of like well, street fighters more fun and prettier. Pen over this. I granted my experience with it was a neighborhood full of kids who had the Genesis so it was even more limited than the Super Nintendo one. So I'm kind of colored by that memory. Everybody I knew had it for Genesis, because of course more blood.GP 30:04 Right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Jake, how about you?Jake 30:09 I've been I hate disagreeing with you guys on every game. It's not that but Okay, look, you're right Street Fighter is definitely notPalsh 30:16 garbage say it's a game.Jake 30:18 It's not it's not lukewarm garbage at best. Okay? You microwave me onWulff 30:25 the garbage?GP 30:27 If your argument against me here's it's not that bad. OkayUnknown Speaker 30:33 then it's kind of that bad.Jake 30:34 All right. The color palette is a bit limited, I give you that. But the digitized actors was revolutionary and they look pretty good. In fact, I wonder if you compare the frames of animation in Mortal Kombat vs. Street Fighter? I bet you they have the same frames. The only difference is not as colorful. And like you're right when you mentioned later entries, the series that kind of expand on that. Moral Kombat three is one of my favorite fighting games and the color Pelletier is amazing, but just watching Keno. That rapscallion thrusting his fist in somebody's chest and pulling out their beating heart. That looked great. I thought that was hilarious as it was good looking to me at the time. I like to look at the game I also love subzero team some zero I will be for life. I thought the sprites and the characters were well done. all agree Street Fighter looks better, but I think brutal combat is not as bad as you think it is. It's no clay fighter but that way. Okay,Palsh 31:30 basically, Jake feels like Cora when he got punched in the nuts in the first movie.Unknown Speaker 31:36 That's true.GP 31:38 And the rest of us feel like Johnny K. Yeah.Palsh 31:41 hundred dollar glasses, glasses. SoJake 31:45 last all this before or after the discectomy I'm leaving that one.GP 31:50 Yeah, glass, all for the wind. Okay, I like that. Okay, so um, next is going to be the 32 bit category. Let's start with Paul. Tell me Whoa, and let's, let's, let's clarify this. This tier is 3264 bit because we'reWulff 32:05 Yeah, it's the same generationPalsh 32:08 so we can switch it up. Okay. So I'm going to name a game. And I'm going to tell you guys what the game and I want you to tell me if you think that I think it's ugly but amazing, or if I think it's terrible, but beautiful.Palsh 32:22 Okay. Okay.Palsh 32:25 Castlevania Symphony of the Night.Jake 32:31 Okay, if you don't think that's a pretty game, there's something wrong with you.Palsh 32:33 Yeah, that was just trolling. I was hoping. For more.Wulff 32:38 See, I was in on that one. Otherwise, I probably would have laid into pause What the fuck is wrong with you?Palsh 32:46 Know, that one I can't say anything bad about so. That's the joke. So anyways, continue forward.GP 32:54 No, now you have to give us a real game. Yeah, I believe a beautiful 32 or 64 Doom 64 Okay, okay, tell us about that. Why why why do you hate that game so much?Palsh 33:06 It would look great. I remember seeing magazine ads, I remember playing it or not playing it wanting to play it. And then finally I went out on vacation, came back and had a copy of it my hand I was like it was this or Duke Nukem. 64 I was already playing Duke Nukem 64 I was like, okay, so I need something new for me, my friends. So we can just lay into this game. And I tried it. I was like, This looks so cool. And then I realized this, like, this game is crap. I was so disappointed with it. It moved well, like the graphics look great. But it other than that, it just felt like a little bit better version of doom to me like, and I can't play the original Doom anymore or give it headaches just from the motion. So it looked better. But I was disappointed because I thought it was, you know, the 64 and it just meant it was for 64 and I thought it was going to be the actual Doom with better ground. Fix. Now it was completely different. Like they made their own game and I was just I wasn't ready for that disappointment. You've you've given me a bit of a revelation here and agree or disagree but let me know. Would you say no?GP 34:16 Okay, moving on. No. Would you say that video game commercials and box art and descriptions? Were the back in the day preteen equivalent to Tinder profiles.Palsh 34:32 Never thought about it now.GP 34:33 Yeah, they show up and you're so excited because their profile and then they show up and you realize this is not what I thought it was going to bePalsh 34:40 at all. Man, sir.Jake 34:43 Well, you are thirsty and hell.GP 34:46 Oh, God, thirsty for that video game. Yeah.Palsh 34:51 I didn't care about girls back then. I just cared about more video games. Just thinking about that power ofGP 34:57 the power of what was your favorite position back then? 64 cut that out.Jake 35:05 Nope. Three hands on the stick.Palsh 35:08 That's my joke on you need three hands to play an M 64 controller.GP 35:13 Yeah, we saw that name then way nowhere. Okay, so Doom 64. werewolf. What do you what do you think? agree disagree?Wulff 35:22 That's one I don't know much about unfortunately. I thought it was just gonna be Doom for in 64 so I didn't bother with it.Palsh 35:34 PC Okay, shut up.Wulff 35:36 No literally like I thought it was Doom like because I played it on. I think I played it at a friend's house on PC and then I had played it on Super Nintendo. So I was like, well, I played it on a couple of platforms. I don't want to play it again. So I didn't play it for in 64Palsh 35:53 Yeah, well that's that's exactly why I bought it because they'll say Oh, man, like it's a better version. No.GP 35:58 Wrong That's brilliant wrong. Was that Charlie Murphy? Wrong?Wulff 36:05 Or the tigers in Wow, wrong? Yeah.GP 36:10 Okay, but see like how great of a pic was that pulse bought the game because of two words. Doom 64 did not buy that game because of two words. Doom 64 I swipe left soWulff 36:26 hard.Palsh 36:30 Man. I practically hit super like all right.GP 36:35 I don't get that reference. I don't know super late.Palsh 36:38 I'm very single. We'll put it that way.GP 36:44 Okay, so, Jake, what do you do? I'm 64Jake 36:49 I'm actually not a fan of doom. I actually don't like the series at all. Although the recent PC ones that came with the reboots, those are okay but the classic do my never really cared for and there's a series of games on the 60 That kind of tried to bring over to the PC stuff. There's Duke Nukem and hexen. And I think XM XM hex n. That's a word was the better of those type of games that 2d sprites in a 3d world? I didn't care for Doom 64 at all. I did rent it. I played a little bit. I couldn't care for it at all. It is ugly. I'll give you that. I just also think it's a bad game.GP 37:23 Yeah, and I think Doom 64 was one of those games, where I watched my cousins play it. And I loved watching them like I could keep up with it. If I was watching somebody else, but the first time I tried playing it, it was like I completely forgotten what it was like to look at the game and could no longer keep up with it. So I played maybe 30 minutes of it and realize this is not for me to play. But it was entertaining to watch other people run and gun and blow up stuff. So I like it and the visuals are okay so long as I am not guiding the visuals. But that's that's just me say Take what do you ever is for this category? Ugly but great 32 or 64 bit? Okay.Jake 38:07 Hear me you Final Fantasy seven. I love this game.GP 38:11 I think that's a great choice Yeah,Jake 38:13 everybody loves family seven or at least people who were in that generation love probably seven. Today it doesn't hold up for sure I mean the pre rendered backgrounds and in the CGI very pixelated very under rez for today's time but even back in high school I played this game originally, the sprites and the overworld and the exploration areas like cloud looks like some kind of peanuts character mutated into 3d polygon. And there's no textures anywhere to be found any of the enemies practically It is one of the ugliest first gen 3d games I've ever seen. Like I'm talking marrow 64 Meg's father's sevens cloud look like fucking the Mona Lisa. This game is the only reason people like this game. is because of the FMV The video is very cool. And I love that story. I love the music, and the gameplay is fun. But it's ugly as hell.GP 39:09 No, I think I think that's, that may be one of the best because that's exactly right. And I think part of the reason Personally, I was so let down by the graphics is because the commercials that came out back in 97 for the games pretty much only showed the FMV it's the one so your hype for this and you're like, Oh my god, considering the last Final Fantasy with six leaps and bounds and you play it and you're like you said you're just playing to get to the next video. But somewhere somewhere in there you fall in love with it. That's probably like the earliest version of you know, people getting mad because of, you know, not showing gameplay, you know, because that wasn't the practice back then. You know, everybody just played the game because there weren't cutscenes like that. And now it's like the cutscenes look awesome, but let's see what the gameplay looks like you know, so you have gameplay trailers besides you Know the actual trailer? Well yeah, it's the video you ever been catfished by a video game? That's the idea right? The whole dating thing around again? Yeah, I think that's brilliant. I think that's a great observation and that is the cultural and historical significance of the Final Fantasy seven commercials. But if you go back and still because I did this recently if you YouTube the original Final Fantasy seven TV commercials I still get the same feelsJake 40:28 Oh yeah, the atmosphere is amazing and and said jump from snez to PlayStation you just so hyped that the game is going to look amazing and that we all love family six I think of this podcast and just yeah the sprite work and there's great the bosses look I'm awesome. It's graph as graphics are amazing because 2d, so you just really hoping that for the jump to 3d would be something amazing. And what they show you the commercials. Looks great. But that's maybe about 10 minutes of FMV the entire game.Palsh 40:56 YeahWulff 40:58 that's true. Wolfie what do you what do you think? Final Fantasy seven okay I'm probably in the minority here to where I'm not a huge fan of Final Fantasy seven that's not to say I wasn't when it came out I played 200 hours probably in that first go through where I did just about everything I think except killing Ruby weapon I even made a second Knights of the Round soGP 41:25 so I'm hearing you say you never beat Final Fantasy I'm playing I'm playing I'm playingWulff 41:33 now I I even made like I I enjoyed that game so much that time that I even made a friggin anime music video and I am V out of it back in the day with VHS like that was time consuming first I was dedication.GP 41:49 Yeah,Wulff 41:51 I still that's the only one I did. Oh no, that's not true. I did one with Resident Evil as well, but I really enjoyed that game the first time and then every time I've tried to play since I can't put more than like three hours into it before I'm just bored and walk away the game. Like even when I tried to play it a second time back then I was just like, man, I can't. So, to me the game, it hits some notes the first time other than that, I can't agree with that. It's an amazing game. I feel like it's just been overhyped so much. And I think it's also the fact that it wasn't my first Final Fantasy, a lot of people who love it, it was their first Final Fantasy, and that's often the case, but I will agree the game didn't look quite as good as I was hoping. But then I had spent all summer plans so he could n and Wild Arms and compared to Wild Arms. It was damn gorgeous.Palsh 42:47 Wait, you mean it's not pronounced suikodenWulff 42:49 crap? No. But yeah,GP 42:53 it's pronounced Wild Arms thatWulff 42:57 that jump from sprites. It makes It with those backgrounds and everything it even though they weren't pretty polygons by any means for the characters, it was still an exciting change of presentation that let them tell the story in a different way.GP 43:12 And I feel like with Final Fantasy seven they overcorrected the ship when they came out with Final Fantasy eight, with seven, the backgrounds looked more lush and detailed than the characters. And then they came out with eight. And the background was kind of put on the backburner, so they could focus on the sprites and the overworld for the main characters. So at least they paid attention and corrected a lot of people's biggest complaints. But yeah, I think that was a good good entry there. Were all four do you have for us in this category? 32 to 64 bit ugly but lovable Bushido blade? Yeah, we couldn't Bushido blade.Wulff 43:53 I'm not gonna lie. I was kind of a square fanboy back in the PlayStation era. So I was getting all their stuff. Like it I had bought total number one nobody got total number one, but I got Bushido blade and it's it's not what I expected it to be and I had so much fun with it. And my friends and I we would just sit there and play Bushido blade for hours just because the combat it was so intricate for as limited as it was, I mean you injure your opponent, but if you got a killing stab that was it that that match was over with. There was no health bars, it was injury or death. And you can even mess up your opponent by like throwing sand in their fat face like a dirty rapscallion and then taking advantage of it. It it was it was so much fun and even just unlocking it. The the I think it had a couple of hidden characters. It was totally worth it. Just there was a lot of nuance to the game. Play that you don't see in a lot of fighting games.GP 45:03 I'm sitting here I'm trying to remember exactly which one Bushido blade was. So it was it was a fighting game.Wulff 45:09 Yeah, to a degree. It was a weapons fighting game. And I think you actually got to choose between a few weapons to if I remember correctly. Yeah, you're right. What the cover looks like I'm sorry, I'm trying to remember this one is black and white with I think a big big red splatter on it is like a black and white pencil drawing or ink drawing of somebody and then a big red blood splatter bladeGP 45:39 I'm also Yeah, I google image that endure. Yeah, I do remember now. I'm sorry. Thank you.Wulff 45:44 But yeah, the the character models were not pretty that the locations are not very pretty. They weren't even very detailed. It was like one of them was a big courtyard of cherry blossom trees. And it looked like they just copy pasted the same square aware of the arena over and over and over and over the lawn from one end to the other until they got to the opposite wall.Jake 46:05 There was a wonky camera and that came for sure used to zoom way out or like really get really closeWulff 46:11 yeah cuz it let you run away from the your opponent pretty far right? Which of course just made the characters even more unreadable?GP 46:21 Yeah, yeah more obscure. But yeah, I'll be honest that sounds like a piece of crap well done that's not a good entry sick Jake, what do you think about that one?Jake 46:33 I love the game to me. We talked about this before the podcast procedure plays one of my favorite games of the PlayStation because it's not that many I played on that. The combat that one on one combat. I just love how most weapons strikes will like outright kill your opponent if they connect but there's all about the Perry system. And that's pretty unique for its time and there's not many games these days that have that same you know, do or die combat system. But I just love it when you thank you Nick's amazed leg that dropped to the ground. But they weren't dead. They still kept fighting while they're on the floor. I thought was hilarious. I loveWulff 47:07 Yeah, they'll they'll like drag one leg while like trying to walk with the other leg with this horrible limp and it's great.Jake 47:15 It's like Black Knight fight, right? Yeah,Wulff 47:18 you break their arm and it just falls limp. They should have made theGP 47:23 Black Knight like an unlockable character.Jake 47:26 I'll know your polygons off. It's great. I love it.Jake 47:31 The backgrounds I agree are bad. But there was a style to it though. Like the bamboo forest, the cherry blossoms it kind of felt like that martial arts, you know trope that's set up in a deserted field. A courtyard has been cleared away to warriors that battle. It had the style, but yeah, you're right. It did not have the graphic power and the textures to back it out.GP 47:54 And then in the background, you see just the opening scene from Ninja Gaiden taking place.Palsh 48:00 As long as that music from ninja guidance playing I'm down for it. I love that game.GP 48:07 Okay, so Polish What was your? No You got us at the beginning. Sorry I got Castlevania joke. Yes. And the wolf goddess with Bushido blade. Jake What do you got?Jake 48:21 We went seven manGP 48:24 that's right that's how forgettable of a game that is.Wulff 48:28 Bomb.GP 48:30 I know I'm just I'm drinking drinking my haterade tonight No, I The reason I'm selling is because I've got so many honorable mentions for this category for 32 to 64 ultimately, I've settled on one but Metal Gear Solid has not aged well. This is not my These are my my honorable mentions. Such a great game, full of story and a lot of amazing twists and turns, but even playing that way came out. The graphics took me out of it. Mortal Kombat mythology sub zero. The fighting in that I don't know if you guys ever played that the graphics were bad. The fighting style was decent, but the platforming was abysmal, but it was still oddly charming because it's sub zero in an open world type setting. But ultimately, I think I have to settle for ugly but with a lot of heart, Nintendo 60 fours, GoldenEye. It was going to be that or Superman 64. And ultimately, I just don't care enough about Superman 64 so GoldenEye because I love that game. I don't know how much of the actual game or campaign I ever played through. I know I've watched it wire to wire with my older brother, but the four person you know, challenge mode was my entire experience pretty much with the 64 like that and Mario 64 and not much else. But he did great Yeah well but I mean even if you guys ever played like the giant head hack or you know code for golden it came on game was so yes DK mode so incredibly ugly but so much fun and it for me it was one of the first multiplayer you know games like that What do you guys think about golden I polished let's start with you know you summed it upPalsh 50:23 I really can't add to it because it's just I want to say I loved it when it first came out but at the same like for graphics was but I think it was more just how you could shoot people in the crotch and they grab their crops and then fall over dead you know or it would tell you like give you the tally of headshots arm shots leg shots torso other you know other was always the crotch shot so right yeah, but I mean the graphics as much as I want to admit I thought they were amazing. I think it was more the gameplay itself soGP 50:59 no slough Rizzoli. I'm still still playing that from an unfinished game that we started back then. That's impossible. Well, what do you think about GoldenEye? Ah,Wulff 51:11 yeah, a, it didn't have a whole lot of texturing I think the majority of the the texture quality went to the characters faces, but not their models. So the game itself though, was an absolute blast. It wasn't a whole lot to look at, which is probably for the best because it I think it helped it run a little smoother. There were a lot and 64 first person games that made me gave me headaches or made me dizzy, something like that. Man, I spent so many hours in that game with friends after school. We just go to somebody's house and play for like two three hours that day and then do it all over again. The next day. It was crazy.GP 51:54 Well, and it was just good enough of a game to make you want to hate your friends. Oh yeah, only for a short for short amount of time because like you said the next day, you're fine. Or if you were mad at somebody, you were only mad until you shot them in the crotch and then you were squareWulff 52:10 that that Mario Kart 64 games that end your friendship for the day. Yep. And but it's fine tomorrow.Palsh 52:18 Yeah. And then you started all over again with the next match.GP 52:20 Yeah, we should we should set up a multi person. tournament or like cast of if we can figure out a way to do that either like Mario Kart orGP 52:30 golden I think would be a blast. There's a PC version. I think actually, if GoldenEyeWulff 52:34 And isn't it awful?Jake 52:37 Okay, just likeGP 52:42 Okay, cool. So Jacob, what's your take on GoldenEyeJake 52:45 wolf said I pretty much nail on the head with the low character Polly's or low Polly's link character models, the triangle shaped heads, it reminds me of that music video Dire Straits money for nothing. We're just Bismillahi low polygon models and it's just terrible plusses against 64. And hey, I love the system. I love Nintendo but they had the fog problem like the jungle level and the Russian level it just the design to get around the graphic failures. They brought in more fog, just more fog. And they do that all these games and it's just does not work for the game at all. But it's a fun game. I used to play multiplayer like everybody else. Proximity mines is my favorite weapon. I love that. Yeah, I love the game and I love playing it but you're right. It's it's ugly as dirt.GP 53:31 Yeah. Do you know who I killed more with proximity mines than anybody else yourself? Yes, me. I find my short term memory man. I try.Palsh 53:40 I tried to lure people into it without setting it off myself. And was very unsuccessful.GP 53:46 Shit went to the to the point of the fog. And to kind of again, put this all in the same packaging as the Tinder and the dating things. They do the same thing in nightclubs. You know dim the lights a little bit and put into more fog, it'd be fine. So we've all fallen victim to that it's okay. Alright, so on to the other side of that coin. Let's now examine the beautiful games that are completely without any other merits. Next time, well maybe not next time but in the upcoming episodes on presby to cancel. Let's go around and restate our names a group of rapscallions and tell everybody where they can find us. Jake, you want to start us off?Jake 54:33 Sure I'm sick Jake, you can find me on Twitch and Twitter. And I guess hereGP 54:39 Wonderful. Thank youPalsh 54:41 push. You can find me here most of all, and I also stream very sparingly on Twitch as well under pulse 109 pls h 109.Wulff 54:52 Okay, very good. And well. You can find me streaming on Twitch or here or occasionally posting on Twitter. werewolf w ar EWLFFGP 55:04 awesome and I am guy prime. You can find me here on Twitch under the retro therapy or on YouTube, Instagram or Twitter as the retro therapy, everybody until next time, thank you so much for joining us.Jake 55:21 Special thanks for music go to Arthur, the ancient found on Soundcloud or the last ancient on YouTube. For more episodes, please visit our website presby to cancel.com as well Feel free to like or subscribe at Apple iTunes, Google podcasts or anywhere else you'd like to listen to your favorite shows. As always, thank you. This has beenWulff 55:42 a do againSpecial thanks to Arthur The Last Ancient on soundcloud for our podcast theme. For updates and more episodes please visit our website www.pressbtocancel.com, or find us on Twitter @pressbtocancel and Instagram @pressbtocancel.

Penny & Sparrow is a folk music duo from Austin, TX. On their tour through Louisville, Andy Baxter and Kyle Jahnke, the talented guys behind the band, stopped by for a few bourbon pours. We talk about life on the road, their musical creation process, and how their fans give them bourbon at shows. You can catch their latest album, Finch, wherever you stream your music. Show Partners: * Barrell Craft Spirits is always trying to push the envelope of blending whiskey in America. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. * Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. * Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: * Pappy Map retires: http://bourbonr.com/blog/pappy-van-winkle-release-map-retires/ * This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the holidays. * How did you all get into music and start the band? * Where does your inspiration come from? * What is your craziest moment with a fan? * How did you get into bourbon hunting? * What bourbon got you hooked? * How does the band work when you live in different states? * Who is the messy one? * What's it like on the road? * What do you listen to on the road? * Have you been on the Bourbon Trail? * Where do you go when bourbon hunting? * Do you ever get free bourbon? * How did fans discover your were into bourbon? * What does it mean to you when someone says your music has changed their life? * Where did the name Penny & Sparrow come from? * Was there a moment where you felt like you made it? * Tell us about your latest album, Finch. 0:00 We like to call ourselves rose a rock occasionally was a rock yeah sleep folk sleep. Good music to procreate to Yeah. Yeah, these are the things that we call Yeah, we discover music as like nobody's working out to Penny and Sparrow like, at least to the best of our knowledge nobody's getting a good pump while they listen to your workout as a stroll. 0:32 Welcome back, everybody. It is Episode 228 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny. And here's the news. The dates for the Kentucky bourbon festival 2020 have been announced. It will take place on September 16 through September 20 of 2020. The festival which draws novice and experienced bourbon lovers to Bardstown, Kentucky every year will celebrate the storied history of distilling America's native spirit during National bourbon Heritage Month. Tickets for the Kentucky bourbon 1:00 festival will be made available for purchase during the summer so make sure you continue to visit Kentucky bourbon festival at KY bourbon festival.com. To stay up to date on all the latest festival happenings and developments. Now for some pursuit series news Episode 15 is now hitting retail shelves across the state of Kentucky. If you're interested in getting a bottle, pay attention because here's the small list of stores that our distributor gave us so you can go out and find your own. Westport whiskey and wine, the party source go big blue liquors depths, fine wine, Ernie spirits bind pig bourbon market, the brown hotel and the brown barrel. We appreciate all the support for going out there and buying a bottle and we hope to bring more here in the future as well. Now it's a sad day in the bourbon world is Blake from bourbon or calm is announced that he's retiring his Pappy release map. It's something that many people around the country including myself used over the years to kind of know when Pappy was gonna be hitting in my state. And Blake he puts it all out there. 2:00 His latest article, that it's time to stop because there's a rare chance that you will ever get it. And if you do, the odds are you are not going to be paying MSRP. He also kind of throws a quick jab in there saying that Sazerac rock really isn't doing anything to prevent counterfeits, nor are they doing anything to stop stores or distributors from playing this game. And you can read more about this in this article within our show notes. Now for today's podcast, I met Andy and Kyle the guys that are behind the band, Penny and Sparrow for the first time back at the 2019 for castle Music Festival in Louisville, Kentucky. I won't ruin the beginning of the podcast for you. But besides being great musicians, and also being incredibly funny, these guys are also really into bourbon. And I'm going to anticipate that after you listen to the stories that these two have to tell about their life on the road, their creation process, and of course, their love for bourbon. You're gonna become a fan as well. Now, it's time for Joe to tell us a little bit about barrel 3:00 spirits. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 3:05 Hi, this is Joe from barrell craft spirits. We're always trying to push the envelope of blending whiskey in America. Find out more at barrel bourbon.com. 3:15 I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char. We're coming up on the holidays. What a wonderful time of year you have your family and your friends together. And you crack open the cork. You pour a little bourbon in your glass, you sip by the fire. It's so magical. It's so wonderful. I absolutely love the holidays. But here's the here's the kicker of it all, is that it is not easy to buy bourbon for people anymore. For God's sakes, I'm trying to figure out what to get some of my friends who I always get bourbon and they get everything already. So here's my recommendations for 4:00 Want to buy your friends who are bourbon fans? Come down to Kentucky or find someone who's in Kentucky and buy private barrel selections. I mean truly, and honestly, those are the best possible gifts that you can get because they are unique. They are unique to that particular store. And if you don't know what a private barrel selection is, it's when a liquor store or a club goes to the distillery and they actually select a barrel of bourbon that is bottled specifically for them. You'll see their sticker on it and then when you give that as a gift to somebody, you can tell them you know, that's one of only 75 or 200 bottles of that bourbon it when that bottles gone, you'll never have any of it again. And in fact, you don't have to go to Kentucky you'll find that whether it's a total wine or a local liquor store in your market or a big chain like Kroger, you'll find that there are excellent private barrel selections there. Just walk up to the cash register and say hey, you have any private 5:00 barrel pics. And if they look at you like you're crazy, you know you're in the wrong store. So hopefully by now if you're listening to this podcast, you've already found your bourbon store. And if you don't have your bourbon store, just ask us in the comments where you should be shopping. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram, hey, even my YouTube, just search my name Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers. 5:32 Welcome back to that episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. Kenny here today just in the basement recording studio, but this is going to be an opportunity that we rarely get. I mean, it's an opportunity where we are trying to find new guests that are able to bring a new dynamic to the podcast. You know, we've had WWE superstars on before and today we're going to have a music artist on that. me you've maybe heard of and if not, you're going to learn more about them too. 6:00 Day. But I want to tell a quick story of how we all kind of got connected here. So, you know, we're starting to get involved with a lot of more music festivals, and, you know, for castle, bourbon and beyond, and so on and so forth. And when you do that, you get put on a media list. And with the media list, you kind of get spammed with a lot of band managers and PR people. And it's usually pretty generic. Sometimes it'll say like, hey, and then they'll be like a variable that says, like dollar sign, insert name here. And it says, like, you got to meet these people. They're great. You can see you can see him on stage at this time. And let me know if you want a chance to have them on your podcast or have them on, you know, maybe in your newspaper article because they don't really tailor it. It's just, you know, just something generic that goes out. But you know, shout out to Joe, Joe's, the PR manager for Penny and Sparrow. And he sent me a very personalized email and it kind of started off and saying like, Oh, hey, like, Listen, these guys are actually like really into bourbon. And that's kind of what kind of kick this off because usually people's 7:00 You know, you gotta have mon like, okay, sure what are we going to talk about? music that is because if we don't have any shared interest in bourbon, this is going to be a pretty, pretty lame for a bourbon podcast. And so we took an opportunity I said, Yeah, that's that's awesome. Let's go meet these guys so we had an opportunity to sync up at four castle after their set. And we talked and I mean, we talked for probably a solid 30 minutes there and I think we just we there's there's magic I mean, there's there's something was happening right all the all the stars were aligning, and, and we really kicked it off. And these guys are huge bourbon nerds. They're really into it. Plus, they make great music. And so I'm happy to be able to introduce these two guys to the show. So today, we've got Eddie Baxter, and Kyle Yankee. They are the duo behind Penny and Sparrow which has been featured in Rolling Stone and they're also came out with the latest album Finch. So fellas, welcome to the show. Hello. Thank you for having us. Greetings to you constant listener. 7:58 So, you know, I couldn't be 8:00 Usually like talk about bourbon like as we usually go into this like it's because we usually have a master distiller somebody get coming on but you know you guys bring a different dynamic to this so we'll talk about bourbon here in a little bit. I kind of want to learn more about you all like talk about the origins of the band. Maybe talk a little bit more about the type of music y'all do as well because I know it's kind of it's like folk music maybe like iron and wine mixed into it kind of talk about like, where you all get your you know, your vibe and everything. folk music iron line is very, very good. A good comparison. We like to call ourselves rose a rock occasionally was a rock Yeah, sleep folk sleep. That's good music to procreate too. Yeah. Yeah, these are the things that we call Yeah, we describe our music as like nobody's working out to Penny and Sparrow leads to the best of our knowledge. nobody's getting a good pump while they listen unless you enjoy your workout as a stroll. Yeah, cuz that is what we can provide a good stroll soundtrack can do that. We started doing music and 9:00 College because I needed a place to stay. My wife knew this guy and 11 other guys that lived in this huge house. That was basically a shithole frat house. 9:10 By the way, not at all. I'm just letting you know this was that many people in a small space with very little air conditioning is filthy is filthy. So I moved in and Kyle and I pretty quickly found out that we both liked music and both sounded pretty okay when we sang together. And man, the rest as they say sort of history. We just kept plugging along and on a small home rig that his mom and dad got him for Christmas, we recorded our first song with the sheer expressed intent of having music that our kids could someday listen to. And here we are eight years later with no kids. 9:46 That's pretty cool for one day they'll listen to it. Yeah, if we procreate Yeah, they'll be able to hear it. They'll be able to they'll be able to get down on it. But I mean that your all's vibe like what you all do. You know I think I read that you make serious songs, but you're not very serious people. 10:00 All right. And that's kind of like the kind of vibe y'all put. I mean, we were down here talking before we started recording here. And we were just cracking jokes left and right. So kind of talk about the music, like where the inspiration comes from the lyrics, everything like that. Yeah, we that's I mean, what we mainly try to do is write basically autobiographical songs, things that we're working through things that would be cathartic to us. 10:26 But that's usually the more internal stuff, which is great. I mean, we talked about it all the time. It's the the deeper conversations Andy and I have. 10:35 But yeah, I mean, I don't we don't live in that part of our we have, I feel like the majority of what we do is, as humans is just light hearted. Yeah. And I remember years ago, when we started doing this, we started taking ourselves really seriously on the front end, right? Like we were we featured ourselves being serious guys writing heartfelt music with good lyrics and the least on stage. Yeah. 11:00 So we'd show up to these shows, and then we would, you know, barely move an inch and not talk and not laugh in between songs just to try and, you know, sing our ass off. And then I remember my dad talking to us after a show one time and more or less said, Jesus Christ, let him come up for air. I think the point he was getting at was like, Look, this isn't who you are, when you're not onstage like, this is sort of more of a character, you're creating this overly serious, you know, facade. So just do you see like that I didn't raise an overly sensitive son that would happen to all that he definitely raised an overly sensitive side is true, he did do that. But he also raised a sort of a goofball as the his old man. And so for what it's worth, it felt so much more free just to be the same person on stage and off. So the same dumb shit jokes that we make in the van is what you get here on a podcast is what you get on stage and we do a show and that feels really nice. Yeah, I mean, I had the opportunity last night to go and check you guys out on the show because you guys are doing your your nationwide tour right? 12:00 Now and I know it's going to be finished by the time this this wraps up. But it's funny because you all you mean exactly exactly what you just said, right? It's it's serious songs, and then you all bring this different vibe to it where you like you try to bring it up lifting. I mean, at one point, Andy, you're doing this thing of like, All right, let's get the clap. Let's get the beat going. And then you would raise your hands slowly, slowly need said as I raise my hands. I want to see your hands in the air. And then when I make like this musical cue of like, stop, everybody stop. No, I don't want to see repeat. And it'd be great job too. Yeah, really impressive. Yeah. And I think I even told him when I do that, I want you to shut the hell up. Yeah. Which is aggressive to say to a crowd of paying customers who came to see you do a thing, but really, that just point needs to be gotten across. And they do they went into it. It's awesome when people are I mean, maybe it's because it's bourbon country. Everybody was slightly hammered, but they really they bought in which is nice. Yeah. I was about to say how many venues do you go to and there's like four roses posters just blasted everywhere over like Morgan headliners last night. Oh, dude. It's this is a different 13:00 chunk of the country okay like people here get the brown water and they're down with it as are we but I feel like we had three gifted bottles to us last night and they were all good Oh really? Yeah they were all nice we had an eagle rare we had a Woodford double oak forgetting one from a another distillery but we got gifted these bottles and I was like, man, it pays to play in Louisville. Yeah, so good. That's awesome. And yeah, free bourbon is always the best bourbon. It's a great bourbon. Yeah, it tastes better. Yeah, that's what we're down here to we were sitting there sampling from my bar before we started here. We had started with some dusty and I think we got we got Booker's right here is what we're sampling on right now. So that's a fact and constant listener. You should know that. We are in a layer. It's not just a studio, we are in a bourbon layer. There is lighting fixtures made out of barrel hoops. There are thousands of bottles surrounding it thousands. Like if it's a powder keg in here, one errant match and the whole blocks going up in flames. Yeah, we're gonna make sure we don't have a gas leak little bit later. He just 14:00 Right, yeah, positive of that. 14:02 And so, you know, the music is fun and it's interesting and you all are been going and I kind of want to talk a little bit more about, you know, the road and the tour because I'm sure you've got fans. I remember there was one fan last night and I think she tried standing up or waving she was she was on the right side about five rows back and every song she was just going crazy. What's your craziest like fan moment that you've had? That's a good question. I'm really good one you know, Skid Row comes to mind. Yeah, Skid Row probably comes to my most likely that mean Andy with a fan 14:36 who loved our stuff. The the man had a few too many drinks and was kind of shifting between being extremely excited and happy to see us like tears of joy seeing us and telling us how much he loved us to literally almost throwing punches at us. And he had some just Jacqueline 15:00 Hi, I'm going on while we were there, oh, he was a psychopath. And he shall remain nameless. But he went by will actually this is not on his birth certificate. So I think it's safe to say this. He introduced himself as joke. That was his name. Yeah. So rule number one. Yeah. Don't be friends with anybody named john. Sure. Yeah. But junk like Kyle said and met us with tears in his eyes saying I'm so glad we got you here. I'm so glad we got your you're going to show them you're going to show them and saying a lot of nonsensical like the hell does this guy mean? So Kyle, and I basically consoling him. Yeah. While he was meeting us, which was really sweet. Like I took it. We're here. We're here. Thank you. So we're also glad you're here. Thank you for this is a gig, right? Yeah, we can still play. And he then proceeds to, you know, basically ask us a really basic question. Like, you know, how far was a draft day? And he's slurring over himself. And as Kyle goes to answer the question, it was just act it out. Yeah. Let's just do a little role play. Yeah. Okay. We're used to this. Yeah. Okay. You I'll be 16:00 junk UBU Okay, and how how long was draft today? Oh the drive Shut up. fuck up, dude. 16:10 So the important parts of that interaction dude, buddy, buddy that's it. Yeah, I took away that took away that's the most important thing that you could Garner from that story is that he said shut the fuck up dude, buddy. And we have ever since us dude buddy as the perfect you know, hey, screw off they want to call somebody and that was with a fan so I don't really know what to do with that other than Hey, thanks, john I'm glad to exist in this weird world of ours. But no no crying outrage like on stage when you're up there and he was just cool calm and collected in a seat. Oh, no, there's no Well, there were some crying outrages he kept screaming out the phrase make them wonder over and over, which we still to this day are not sure what he meant by that. But we're doing our best still junk. If you're listening to this. We are trying to make them wonder every night every night. I think that's 17:00 That's the new lyric to our new new title though new song is what it's got to be. Yeah, it's totally true meta man named junk in Skid Row. We're going to make them 100 mega one day we are eight years later still making them. 17:13 Oh man, that's fantastic. So I guess we'll we'll kind of shift a little bit and we'll kind of talk about bourbon. So kind of talking about your all story with bourbon like, Where are you introduced to it? How did you kind of get into it? Because you know, Kyle, I know last time we talked it you know, you're part of like the r&d next and we talked you're part of like the the hunting party now like you're searching for bottle bottles and stuff. So I think we both got started, I guess similar in time, our our manager Paul's a big collector of bourbon. And he's got this thing called the steel speakeasy, which is really rad. And he was the one who showed us for the first time like, Hey, here's the really nice stuff. You've had a lot of the shitty stuff. Let's try some really good things. And I'm going to talk you through some of the taste notes, some of the flavor profiles just 18:00 Some of them get you get your feet wet a little bit. And I took to it really fast really enjoy it as this Kyle and for me one of the things that keeps me sane on the road is hunting for two things, where books and bourbon so I'll go to liquor stores just along the highway as I'm driving in the van or used bookstores and it's just really neat once you've been introduced to how big this world is. how big the world of dusty hunting is how big the world of rare bottle hunting is, and raffles are like the secondary market when you get invited into that and you see how crazy it is but also, you know, the community family aspect of people tagging you in a thing because they know you like Booker's 20th anniversary or they know you've always wanted to find the Booker's right bottle and so they tagged you in when they thinks a decent price in the secondary market. This world's huge man. And so once we got our feet wet into it, it was sort of snowballed from there and now, and now I'm a moderate alcoholic, and I really like bourbon a whole lot. That's where it's thermometer. It's good. 18:59 Good lottery 19:00 Good don't go over that that edge right? Yeah, that's all I need to worry about. Do you think like how early on when we were down in the speakeasy were you overwhelmed a bit when we were like down there with 1000 and a half bottles known because you and Paul are my Sherpas? 19:14 You guys tell me everything I need to know about. 19:18 I love that answer. Yeah, thank you. I felt comfortable. calm. You made me wonder down there. That's that's how I wanted your first experience. Be. I was it was I tender and affectionate Ender? Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Laughing that's how that's Yes. No, that's how your first time should be tender. Whisper the notes. Yeah, it was a bourbon into my hand and give me a soft, gentle kiss on the cheek. Got It's hot. And I'm glad that I didn't know 24 proof 19:50 tenants. 19:55 Man, we just fell in love with it pretty early on and now it's on the writer every night. 20:01 It feels neat to be able to try local stuff and and go by I love baby distilleries. I've got like this massive affection for seeing someone knowing that the craft took so many years to make, like there are these people who gather buddies together started a small distillery, and all of a sudden, they're like putting juice and barrels, and they have to wait. It's a waiting game, and they hope and their fingers are crossed. And so when good stuff comes out of that, I know that for me, it's inspiring because I know what it's like to crockpot a creative idea and wait for it. And that hoping is part of the thing that you're doing, whether it be making music or making booze like you just have a hope you really desire to make a good thing. You put everything into that you can knowledge know how expertise, advice from other people, and then you sit and you wait and hope. And I have a lot of value for that. Which is one of the things I think I'm drawn to bourbon about and baby distilleries, because I think that that's hard to do. And it's risky as shit, man. Oh, yeah. And that's good. That's cool to me. I love that. Well, Andy, I mean, what 21:00 can talk about more about what was there like one bourbon or anything like that that got you kicked or hooked on it or anything like that. Like there's Oh yeah. So kind of talk about what that what that was. It was Booker's for sure it's my favorite to this day. I mean, the way that I always when people ask us our answers the same we both love Booker's and my usual response depending on who I'm talking to with why I love it so much is a the nostalgic pull of it being the first fancy bottle that someone bought me like the first fancy ish bottle and being blown away by how spicy it was. And I tell them the reason why it's my favorite is it it's a it's a bourbon you can have three ways. It's three Bourbons in one bottle. You that is a totally different flavor profile, if you haven't need versus how you have that with a drop of water swill let it open for a minute versus having a couple cubes in there. I mean, you are literally changing the flavor complexion three totally different ways. And as the ice melts, you're going to get a fourth and fifth and six depending on how long you sip on it. 22:00 So any chameleon bottle like that, that exists I'm fond of, which is normally Why go for the hazmat shit. I'm just a huge fan of high proof stuff like that a chameleon. I like that I don't think I've ever heard that one I'm Can I steal that you can share science yours now I'm gonna go ahead and pour in the ship for me and it's all yours will keep going. 22:19 So, Carl, what about you? I mean, I know he said, You know, he said he'd like Booker's as well. But I mean, was that your first introduction was somebody that said, like here drink this hundred 25 proof stuff. You're gonna love it. So I remember Andy and 2011 when he was like, man, I think I like bourbon. That's, that's great. That's really cool. And at the time, I didn't know too much about it. I just started doing a text message. Really? sweet man. Yeah, thanks, man. Cool personal epiphany. Yeah, enjoy a good Tuesday. And I remember you would you drink. 22:51 Just like all of the standards, just like a makers are bulletin, any of those and you are just learning about them. And I do remember when you got your 23:00 First, your first bottle of the good stuff daddy's first book. Yeah, it was very sweet. isn't good time. But then that was it. I feel like it just came over. And I mean, we at the time, were already spending so much time together that I was part of the whole process. And that's just not like yours like guiding Angel, like the whole thing. I'll continue on Go on. How would you say that I'm your enabler and that I to have made you a moderate alcoholic through this process? Because I'd like for you to not say that. I can't not say that. It's definitely true. Yeah, it's very true. Cool. Yeah, we're in the same spot. Yeah, I feel great about that. Our liver is fine. It's fine. We're young. It's length. And if anything, if anything is Old Ironsides Yeah, there that thing can take. And it's fine. I'm say take a look. And I don't know if I like that. But it's okay. Because you really can you have to look at the end. I'm working on that. But yeah, that's how I just and you is for sure my enabler. Through through all of it. My dad is more of a scotch guy. And so I knew about scotches and then I think Andy's 24:00 My whole family in fact about the bourbon world because my dad now will go and buy anytime he knows we're going to travel through hope by the biggest bottle of bourbon that is possible to buy and will be so excited about it. It looks like a super super soaker tank 24:16 it's literally like I didn't know they made them that big It looks like a novelty inflatable but it's real and it's full of Woodford any acid every fucking time. Yeah, I'm so grateful. 24:26 And it's almost cash by the time you leave. Well, I wouldn't gonna say it but yeah, but yeah, if I had a nickel for every like ambling midnight to 2am walking down the stairs at the young house. I've had that huge daddy bottle I'd have loads of nickels. 24:43 So kind of talk about more your your all's camaraderie because you know you grew up together went to school together in Austin. But you don't live in Austin together anymore? Correct. You guys are separated by a state now. So like that. Yeah, that's my talk. So kind of talk about like how that all works out. 25:00 You know the band The friendship, everything. Yeah. Will you talk about the band? I'll talk about the friendship. Yeah. So as a should we should we start with that? Let's go friendship then you do? Yeah. Okay. So I don't think that friends. In fact, I know this. Friends don't spend as much time around each other. Normally as Kyle and I do. I've lived with Kyle in three different homes, both as a married individual, me, my wifey, his wife and another buddy and his wife all lived in this house in Austin in this communal type setup, where we would be going on the road, and our wives and friends all get to always share meals together. And so we lived in married housing together, we lived on the road in various hotels, we lived in San Antonio and a house together. We have lived together in college so much time has been spent with this human. And over that time, you learn a few things not only about each other, but you learn about how to have interpersonal relationships, but 26:00 Right, like you learn like if I again, the amount of mercy extended and mercy received and hard conversations had and celebrations and things to be more and and births and funerals and everything that we've had as a friend group is so much higher than most people have just out of sheer proximity. We live together we work together, we have slept in the same lucky into bed more times than any friends have ever done before, at least to the best of my knowledge. And when we were recording back in the day, we would sleep on couches, just head to toe unlike one individual couch that that was a fact. Yeah, and we didn't enjoy that. One is not 26:42 to say somebody enjoys 26:44 that somebody is a me. 26:48 Yeah, we just with the sheer amount of time that we spend together I feel like not only is this my best friend, but there's there's something deeper than that. It's something that's close enough to begin and it comes 27:00 Out of hard fought years and time spent, there's no substitute for time spent ever. There's no sub for it. I've spent thousands of hours with this person talking about the scary shit in life, the beautiful things in life. And everything in between. And the end result of that has been something that, like I said, is closer to kin than most things that people will ever have. And closer than brothers, that I know like most people that I know don't even have this relationship with their kin. And that has definitely fed into how we do music. And this is a little bit weird for us to live in a different place. Now. It's the first time in our lives that we live in a different city different state. And granted, we still see each other hundreds of days a year as we toured together, but it's definitely affected the music in a good way but surprising. Which brings me to the next phase, the music kind of what would you say our friendship is when it comes to music and its creation. Well, me and Andy we hate each other. So we have to be separated by at least by at least a two to 300 28:00 jerril Simon and Garfunkel thing, right? Yeah. 28:03 And well So Andy we both moved to Alabama for a season. And Andy fell in love with it. I also loved it but wanted to come home to family were to be back in Texas. So I moved back. And so to record we wanted to stay home just because it's a lot of travel if if we don't. 28:21 And so we've just learned learned how we each have our own little individual studios that we go to we record with our buddy Chris Jacoby in San Antonio. And he goes and records with Chris buffet. We each have our own individual Chris's that we record in their studios. CRISPR get on the phone, right Mike Chris over here, his Chris over there is perfect. And we just do the method. I do a lot of the melody and he does a lot of the lyrics. And 28:48 when it comes time to record, we just do our own individual thing and kind of just mash it all together and see what works and technology allows it. Pretty crazy thing now. Sweet. Not so hard. Yeah. Sweet, sweet. 29:00 Internet. We couldn't stream it. Who knows where to be here, man? What was it I think, who was at the open for you all last night. Caroline Spence, Caroline Spence she had a she had a really funny kind of like opening to one of her songs and saying like, oh, I've got like a couple million downloads on Spotify with this one song. It's amazing that my parents have figured out how to use Spotify 29:21 solid Carolina. 29:24 So who's the messy one between you to me? No, I were both pretty messy. I would say I you're very sweet to say so. I think we can both be tidy when necessary. But I think I would probably get because he's more form and function like he would never asked me to pack up the van. What I do, and I've learned it now I've learned this about myself and it's fine. I am not efficient in a lot of movements. And so I look at Kyle and I'm like, Kyle, if you will please do this for you. Or will you do it and then teach me so that I can now know how to do it your way spatial reasoning I did not score very high. 30:00 On I knew lots of synonyms but I did not know how to put the blocks in the right order so that they would fit neatly into a van he does so I think that would mean that he's cleaner well that's that's like a dad move right you know to pack up a pack up the truck to go down to Myrtle Beach or to Florida or desk whatever it is and you're sitting there playing a game of Jenga with all your luggage I've got that I've got that gene whatever it is in my tool I it's so hot The other day I literally it did happen where you start waving fan and yourself like Oh, it's so nice to have a man around. 30:34 And I would honestly say something like that every time I see impacting man like I'm so proud of you. Amy peg the van the other day and the doors wouldn't shut up. He was like trying feebly trying to shut both of the doors to say Cleveland was not nice, but it was just calling it what it is and painting a picture. Yeah, typecast. Listen, it's here. It's banned. I think I literally pushed you out of the way was like I got this. Just 31:00 I'm out, and then I put it together. Oh my insolence my silliness that I would even tried to back the van but did but in terms of who's cleaner, both of our suitcases explode. That's why I'm entering every single hotel room we enter. That's true. They do so to answer your question, maybe it's a push, but the more organized of the two of us would be Kyle. Yeah, I don't be somebody I'll take her. Yeah, you'll have to look at its object. I'll take it. So when you're on the road, are you are you all constantly talking to each other is like one person napping while somebody else is driving? Or is it you know, you said like, you've talked about everything deep and everything here. So is that is that what does that what driving on the road is like for you also, we, the last four days. Before we got to local, we had four days of six hour drive days each. So within that six hours, there can still be two hours of talking, and a good two hour nap and then two hours of just 32:00 Looking at your phone or whatever else you want to do, or just staring off into the distance Yeah. And that's about what happens each time is just a mix of all of those and whoever is in the driver's seat gets the ox cord and gets to choose what we listening to. 32:15 So you got into on the road got a good system. Well, I mean, it's almost guaranteed. You're going to look at see a few things with Ryan, our tour manager, you're going to get a steady diet of pop divas, you're going to hear lover by Taylor Swift over and over again. Then you're going to hear him switch over to never getting to know Anderson's lover, that whole album on repeat that some Shania Twain and I will never weasel in when Kyle's in the seat recently. It's been a lot of RMB RMB Yeah, yeah, I don't I can't listen to anything but right now, which is just fine some slow moving kind of get you in low juniors. Yeah, that's what I'm looking in this home a little bit as I will always Yeah. Manny, what are you alluding to? I didn't 32:58 just like thank you. 33:00 Yeah, you mean you can make it look at Andy as much as you can, but it's like yeah, after a while you're just like, all right. I miss home a little bit. Yeah. Listen the RMB stuff. I get it, man. It's nice. It does. That's been that's been on the docket for him for a while now. So it'll probably bleed into the next record somehow. Yeah, for me, it's guaranteed I will sit in the front seat. Probably be quiet for like 20 minutes and then put on my Stephen King audiobook more Stephen King podcast. And they will both look at me smirk a little bit and put their headphones 33:32 such as life man such as life. So So I mean, so you're a podcast listener right. So the Stephen King stuff, so you don't you're not a fan of just like listening to whatever's happening. Going around as you're driving then. No, not so much for me. Yeah, I think we're gonna let him have a Stephen King. No, I'm sure he's a beautiful human, Stephen King, and I hope to meet him one day, but please, I I just haven't read his books yet. Now, I'm not a book reader either, but I can listen to a book 34:00 Totally that's like why they invented movies. Like why would you? Why would you read a book? Yeah, we made it past them. Yeah. It's like when you sit down with a book for a month when I can get finished in an hour and a half, and see the problems, my shit on y'all and I don't want a problem here in the zoo, Andy's a fast reader. And so he doesn't get that he can finish a book in a few hours. And that's where he finds enjoyment. And it still I've been reading the same book this whole tour and I think it's like 150 pages. Oh, God, and like it's half and more pictures. Right? Yeah, it's actually it's actually shell Silverstein it's a really good novel. He's gonna love it when he finished it. I could barely finish it goose goose bumps novel anymore, right. So man, choose your own adventure. Yeah, sweet RL Stine. I love you. 34:42 So, you know, kind of shifted a little bit back to bourbon real quick before we start losing listeners talking about this random. 34:49 So, you know, kind of talk about, you know, have you all visited the trail, you know, come into Louisville, Kentucky, like have you been to distilleries like is there something around there that that kind of fascinates you 35:03 As the saying goes, Portland is weird. Perhaps it's something in the water. It turns out that there might be some truth to that. The Oregon capitals primary water source is supplied by the bowl run watershed. It's also the key ingredient in one of the city's most popular watering holes, Bull Run distillery, the boulder and watershed is a very unique water source. It's protected by an act of Congress back in the 1870s. And the city's fathers got their hands on a beautiful lake up in the Cascade Mountains. And it's been that way since the 1870s. It used to flow through wooden pipes by gravity to Portland. 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But I got to see a lot of the stuff behind the scenes in terms of like I didn't know about the ALGEO and orphan barrel stuff and how I was involved with bullet and all that stuff is my first time ever being behind the door. That was my first experience was the bullet one and then I went to Buffalo Trace which sort of like the Cadillac for me. It was lovely. Never seen a brick house never been inside one before. I was the the perfect target for the guy that sits down and watches the video in Buffalo Trace and was just like 37:47 just just full, full geek Boehner and loved it so much and I'm sitting like asking questions of the tour guide I'm that guy. I was. I was really loving it. And like man, I again, if 38:00 I lived nearer to here I do it so much more often because it's such a cool thing man. I know that there are other worlds as big as this in the booze world like I know the the world of smelly A's and wine is huge and if you want to go to you've got favorite vintners and favorite years and all that famous and maybe sometime that'll be a thing that I get into but right now this is like the second most passionate affinity that I have is bourbon and I love that and Stephen King's a good number one to have it is pretty good 38:31 again selfish plug listener out there if you know Stephen please connect him with my people. 38:38 Hey, will you tell me Can you show your Somali a skills with this bourbon with what we're having? Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean, let's put you to the top I 38:48 want the listener to hear what I basically what I go through, but I get to go through Oh, and welcome to Andy's bourbon tasting. This is imagine you're my ear. Yeah. If you switched by normal 39:00 Take the left earphone out, put it back in, but the right one and I'm all around you. What I'm drinking today friend is Booker's right. This is the first fancy bottle I ever bought for myself. My wife was furious. I found it in Texas, or outside of lower Greenville. And here it comes to me via the bourbon pursuit podcast and his willingness to share his nice booze on the nose, a stringent rye smoky, very sour ish In my opinion, which I love very much very much right? But this drinks more like a bourbon very spicy, stays in the back of your throat right above the tongue just lingers there for much longer than it would the burning taste that you'll get with anything high proof and Booker's is always there and always present. But this even though it's Ryan astringent, in my mind still has a sweetness that is not normally present and rye whiskeys for me that I love, which is why I would compare it to a bourbon and that is my tasting note for today. On Booker's right, thank you don't fantastic, slow clap for that. Thank you so much. Thank you. That was nice. 40:00 Right yeah sure head guys into it. I mean, because Booker's ride this was this was one of the most, you know, highly anticipated and allocated releases that came out a few years ago. It's long gone from the market who knows if we're ever going to see something like this again, because this was a batch of ride that actually Booker know put down, right? I mean, this was this was something that happened a long time ago. But what was it that kind of got you into the kind of the hunting scene Andy like what got you into trying to find where bottles or anything like that? I think it was the first time that Paul described to me how few of these get made and the stories behind him like you just alluded to the fact that if I remember right, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but Booker Booker know when he was there, and like his latter years, this was the only project that outlasted in terms of his actual life. This is post mortem released. Absolutely. But he had his actual hands on the mash bill on the creation process on the front end. And the story of that to me, I knew this was a bottle that I had to hunt down and find which is why I have it in the bunker because 41:00 Booker's get that in style jackpot For me it was the first thing that made me fall in love with bourbon I collect as many of their offerings as I possibly can the best use of ever had my life is Booker's 25th anniversary and so for me hunting began with this bottle which is pretty cool that we're you know, having it in this podcast but the first time I ever remember bouncing over to multiple different liquor stores when I news release week for this, and I was just hoping, you know, and I was I was so green, like, didn't have a fucking clue. I'm literally walking to places like, do you have it? Yeah. And they're like, like, I would get laughed at so hard. But this one, like, younger clerk at this liquor store was like, I think I can probably get one. I mean, I think that the dude that we had promised to bailed, and it was just too high of a price point for him at the time, and I was like, I'll do it. And again, wife was none too pleased until I explained like, I'm not gonna do this all the time. We don't have the cash for it. But I saved up my money from the road. We're good. And it feels really cool to say that it began a love for 42:00 Hunting dusty is later on when I learned what they were finding out old distilleries that I occasionally can find on the secondary market that people sell. And where do you go for this? Like, how do you hunt? Yeah, that's good question. I mean, like, I would say that you're you're in a decent position. I wish I should I say you probably wish maybe when you started doing this, like six years ago, you were on the road. Yeah. When you're on the road. That was prime opportunity way back then. Right. Because even back in 2013 2012 timeframe, the stores were still littered back then they couldn't sell the stuff sure until 2014 hit 2015 then everything just was scarce. It was just a ghost town and some of these liquor stores to find allocated bourbon. So yeah, to talk about your story there. Well, the hunt for me like it begins not on the secondary market. For the most part, I love going to hole in the wall along the road hole in the wall, seemingly dilapidated liquor stores and checking behind the front rack and what I mean by that 43:00 I've had incredible luck in in and around smaller towns and Alabama checking package stores and looking at old like literally they'll put the new version of wild turkey one on one of the front. And then if you look behind you might be lucky enough to see like you can tell cork difference you can tell label difference that I've found at least six bottles of us Austin Nichols wild turkey that way just from looking in the back and that just means that nobody goes into that package store and buys wild turkey. They had to buy it to get the new label to keep their rep happy or whatever. I found age state at old charter and found some old log cabin some really great best old saying yeah some some really cool dusty finds just from people who've like only these package stores for years. And you know, don't know what they have and I'm not out there trying to scam them because I don't do any I don't resell anything. My my meager bourbon collection in my little closet of my house is all for drinking. I wanted to have specific bottles set aside for specific purposes in my life. 44:00 When a buddy has a kid, we're going to open up birthday bourbon. When there's a death in the family and I want to celebrate the life that has been extinguished, I want to open up the Booker's offering. I want to open up the dusty of the bottle and bomb bomb beam that I have from the 60s. That was there. I mean, he was in the barrel when Kennedy was alive, like, Are you kidding me? Like there's so much of this stuff that I see a bottle that there's limited number of and I immediately see a story. And I see who was alive when it was first in the cask and I see all of those things that matter to me as a storyteller and my other job. And so I admittedly I wax nostalgic and poetic on everything in my life. And I've done that Full Frontal with bourbon and I'm very pleased with it. It just makes the hunt so much easier because it makes it something fun to do. And so the secondary markets like the last stop the last stop I'm like, I really want to thing but I know that there's no chance I'm gonna be able to find it in the wild. But for a person who hasn't done that, what does that even look like the secondary market secondary markets tough man sometimes you can invite 45:00 The private Facebook's and lots of stuff, but you've got people online that'll buy a bottle for X number of dollars. And then they will take that MSRP and they will multiply it by 1000 million dollars. And then say yes, you can have this MSRP bottle of $170 for the meager pricing of 1200. Gotta and it's brutal but to be honest with you, and this is just being really blunt and whether this gets me castrated by bourbon fans or not, there are times where the story the juice is worth the squeeze the story of the bottle and me never being able to get access to that bottle outside of this really jacked up price on the secondary market is worth it. Like I'm saving up for the sheer fact that someday I'll be able to get a bottle of Booker's 25 be for probably 850. Now I think 600 was a couple years ago, but that about right azz pretty much on point or out there. So looking at that I'm like, okay, I want that and and is the story and the amount of time 46:00 And dinners that I'll be able to have that with and back porch conversations. 46:06 Is it worth it? And the answer is, of course, of course it is. To me and that's not for everybody but if you spread out that price point over the amount of time and stories that I'll be able to have it on it then yeah towards it. So there you go. So if your listener out there, you're a fan of these guys. You got a book or 2015 around. There's there might be a private private concert you could have in your backyard for a bottle who knows I'll rub your back. Lots of stuff. There's a lot of ways 46:33 so I mean, are you so Kyle I'll ask you so when when when you're on the road and Andy's driving or you're driving or whatever? Does a DC like a rundown liquor stores like pull the pull pulled over pulled over? We gotta go, Sam. Yeah, we both do, because I know that's what he did. So I'll see what it'll be like, is this a good looking one, we need to stop here. And most times, ZS there's really not a there's very rarely I know, to go into a liquor store. So we'll go pretty often and I know what to look for. 47:00 Now, which is really fun, I know how to say the things to the guys behind the counter to see if there's anything back there. Yeah to play that game game, and I'm in it now, which is nice, but I know that uh, whatever whatever we find whatever the bounty is. We'll go to Sir Baxter, which is great. And then I'll get a couple polls off at every once in a while. Pro tip for you hunters out there, just one. I won't spoil all the tricks. But one, a really great way to get in good with a local liquor store that sells fancy bottles is before you let them answer upon asking if they have that midwinter nights DRAM or whatever really cool bottle you're looking for you immediately say before you ask before you let them talk after you've said do you have this is Do you have anything in the back? You say also if you do have it will open it right here right now and will each have a poor and that is a great way to immediately be like I've seen people turn on a dime when they were going I gotta tell me No. And then I'm like, Is it worth 48:00 it for me to like have a poor of this stuff right now with the the owner then buy the bottle from him. Yeah, because it does two things in one thing you get to try the juice, you get to try the juice with a friend who also probably loves bourbon because he's selling the stuff he pedals it and then you're probably going to get future offers or future looks because that guy knows that you give a shit because then you're not going to resell an open bottle. Like for him I find it for most people I find that disarming because they know that I'm not in this to make cash. I'm in this because I love the juice. I love the story and I really want that bottle to open up and drink in my house and it'll get open eventually might as well now yeah, exactly as will make it happen. So take that and run with it listener So even with the with the fandom that you have anything like that nothing's like nothing's free coming your way. I mean, I talked about bourbon all the time and yeah, all I get samples sent to me But yeah, for the most part, nobody sitting here sending me allocated bourbon, but even in the music world. Nobody's like, Hey, I got all this Booker's in the back waiting for you guys, right. We got occasional offers 49:00 The occasional offers of people that are kind enough that want to bring us bottles and we get gifted because they know that we dig it we can give to a fair amount of booze on the road which we love the idol amazing. Please continue doing really great, really love that's a good trend. Let's keep that rolling at the end of every tour we do a bourbon lottery because we'll have 49:18 a decent amount that we've both accrued by ourselves and that we've accrued from GIFs from people and so we'll get to the end of a tour a leg of tour and we just go one for one we like rock paper scissor who goes first then we go one for one and first Captain second cap Yeah, and usually those bottles that we still share but we just keep in our house and get to slowly sip on but we're both at each other's houses enough that like we basically choosing which ones we want to have a little bit more of a drink anything at my house and whenever I'm over at his house like he's got bourbon, I'm drinking that too. And so it's literally like it's a first Captain second captain and the only way that he's not going to get it as if he doesn't show up in time for me to finish that bottle. 49:59 get hurt. Yeah. 50:00 So I guess the way to get in good graces, you gotta feed these guys bourbon. Yeah, you guys are bourbon bourbon geeks at the end of the day, which is awesome. And I think that's one of the main reasons why we love to have you on here is because I don't think there's a whole lot of people, we could go and talk to better musicians out there that could have this level of conversation with us as well. Because, you know, like you all are, you're in the trenches, too, right? You're, you're out there, you're hunting, you're driving, you're looking for stuff, and you know what to look for. Right? I think so. I mean, and again, this world's huge still learning what this is like, I've only known about dusty for like, three years. And so like the amount of knowledge that you can amass in this world is massive dude, so crazy to learn about who used to own Old Crow, what years were good. When did it stop being great? When is it is it making a resurgence? Like all these nuance things that you can figure out about this world is huge. And to me, that's just fun. It's just a fun thing to start studying. And so it's changing really quickly. Yeah. Like, especially some of the smaller distilleries around the nation that are happening. feel like there's no 51:00 More to know than ever. It seems like Yeah. It's just an exciting time to be somebody who loves this stuff. Yeah. So if I remember correctly last night, Andy, when you were on stage, you were drinking bourbon. That's fact. Yes. I mean, you were you're drinking bourbon between the songs like you had I think he had a poor with some some rocks in it or something like did you know I was getting we were both gifted that we were gifted 51:23 some old forester on stage. And before that, I was I was Yeah, and we had Eagle rare. In the cup Eagle rare walking onto stage. We had a good amount of bourbon last night just from people bringing us random poor, which is great. How did how did fans get to know that you all were into bourbon? I don't know if there's a time on stage that Andy or I are not drinking bourbon. And I think it think it became apparent after a few years of us just just constantly in between songs, having people. Yeah, okay. And so I think and then eventually people would buy us Bourbons, and send them 52:00 onstage and we started, we just would say how appreciative we were, and we would drink them, which is also great. And that on top of just talking about it, 52:11 whether it's social media or random interview questions like print interviews when they ask, I mean, again, like I said, it's like, second most touted affinity in myself. And so when it comes to both of us being asked on interviews, what do you into? What are you on the road to stay sane? Aside from drinking, we don't drink this thing saying, Yeah, but it complicated, complicated answer. 52:35 But But in all seriousness, when people ask us what we're into, like, it's one of the earliest things we can talk about, like we like drinking bourbon, we like collecting it. We like trying new stuff, local distilleries, like all that. It's a natural overflow of something that's already cool, that we have loved for years. And so when people caught on to that we are very grateful that they have decided to say like how cool this is a way that I can say, Hey, I like your music. It's given me a lot of solace. Have a pretty 53:00 It all the moments that have like music, your music has been a part of our life for a few years now and we'd like to give back. And a lot of times they choose to give back with sweet hundred proof goodness, we are pleased with that choice I was about to say and kind of tail off on that last one is like when somebody does come and says that, you know, your music has inspired their life, like kind of talk about that, right? Because I mean, this is we're getting a little deep with this, but kind of talk about like, what that means to you all as artists. To be honest with you, man, anytime we get to be a part of a thing that's been healing for somebody. Anytime somebody comes up and says as it happens fairly regularly, now, we've toured enough and we've seen enough cities and met enough people that people get to come up and tell us a story of of a moment in their life that they got through with the helping hand of catharsis and music, and we've gotten to be a part of that. And so anytime someone steps up and says that a good thing resulted in emotionally beneficial thing healing. catharsis happened because of our tunes, and 54:01 I don't know that there's a better compliment you could give our music we a lot of why we write our music is is for that it's our own healing. A lot of the times it's it's pretty often autobiographical. And I know that's not the only way to write music. I mean, in the pop world, you're not looking to write something that's heavy or something that's that's going to be specifically cathartic. Yeah, I think carry on a grand day said, you know, leave your boyfriend for me or something. Yeah, yeah. So, a little is emotionally deep. Yeah. Like, there's a lot of shift, it really can be. 54:32 But the fact that someone else would also feel what we're going through kind of it just as pretty binding for us. It's a really cool thing. 54:39 To although our intention wasn't to be like, we want to write something specifically for other people, because we write it for ourselves to know that other people are also connecting with it is just really, it's a cool bond to have with somebody to be like, yeah, we're, we're in the same thing together a lot of the time. So it's really cool. It's really cool for us when anybody tells us right on absolutely 55:00 And so I guess another thing to kind of tail off on from the last question before then is you know you all are not also discriminated in the whiskey world as well because I think it was a city or two ago you did a shout on Instagram saying somebody sent you some of your favorite cinnamon flavored whiskey. Oh yeah, well let's Let the record reflect a few things one will drink it if it's wet and it tastes decent. We will 55:24 we will say the the honey whiskies we just have had we had too many bad experiences in college can't do it so much honey and few can't do it. Yeah, do not good. It's bad to like I just barely heard before. Okay, good I it's it's very triggering. I get I get like American honey shell shock and it's no good. But for the most part, if it's wet and curiously tasty enough to try we'll we'll do it and somebody said for whatever reason we didn't talk about it. They didn't talk about I think we I think we just 56:00 just mentioned it on a whim, did you? I don't remember. I don't remember doing that sometimes you just they're talking on stage you know and that's fair. We could have rambled and said something about fireball but like four shots of fireball appeared. Oh gosh, and well and four shots later like we were like crossing arms on stage and like newlywed couple shooting fireball and then they flirting with us on the line. Yeah, it was great. It was such a such a 56:26 fireball reached out to us is really great. We never responded to him. We need to offload it back. Don't get there sending us a care package. 56:34 No idea What's in the bag. I hope it's just a huge fucking beach ball with fireball on the side. So take it Yeah. Cool. Sounds great. I think because last night you were talking about like, you know, trying to figure out how do you get sponsorships and you're like, you're like what do these guys actually stand for? Now? I think you figured out what you all stand for total fireball. Yeah. Honestly, it's like bring us your strange it like if you could say like, what's your thesis statement for how you want to 57:00 Like roping your sponsors like who's strange out there who wants to do something really weird? Because we're into that that's great for us. We're we gave a random shout out to white claw and great hopes that they'd flirt back with us. We don't even know to what end we don't we're not asking for anything. It's just like what will they say if we start and I also just want to pit white clog against fireball second half storm of the century baby we say go for the highest bidder go for our affections. You don't care Be it cinnamon popery whiskey or if it be this sweet, sweet blackberry White Glove go Yes, sir. Vodka. There you go. You'll start wearing like fireball jerseys on stage now like when you're going out there. That's okay. We didn't sell out 10 out of 10 would do it but I would only do it if they didn't pay us money. I'm like I'm not getting paid for this. Just want the leather jacket. I just want this jacket because I think it's dope. 57:52 I guess one more thing about the band that I want to ask you because I don't think we ever talked about it back in forecast when we first met is the name 58:00 Penny Sparrow like, Where did the name originate from? And how did y'all come up with it? So when we were roommates, we had one other roommate in our room, and it was way too crowded for all three of us. It was basically bed dresser bed dresser bed dressing. And he was an author or a writer. 58:19 And he wrote under the pen name of Penny and Sparrow, and we were getting started. We used to just go by sports teams, because we Why not? It was nothing was really official for us. So anytime we would play a show, it would be like, Hey, we're the Utah Jazz happy to be here. I read the Dallas Cowboys. And by show he means like when somebody in the community was like, hey, we've got a fundraiser and there's gonna be like 13 needy people. We need we just need somebody to play matchbox. 20 covers and 58:48 we're like, oh, we know Rob Thomas. And so we did that a lot of media by sports. So you go by sports teams, and eventually we did one that was paid out, be it not very much money. 59:00 And so they came up to us and basically we're like, Hey, you can't be a sports team anymore. This is making me look bad. Please don't make me look bad we just pick we please just pick anything that's not Utah Jazz. Yeah. And so our roommate who went by opinion Sparrow, we basically just asked them were like, Hey, can we just use your name and then anything we do in this room will do under the guise of finance barrel? And that's where it just kind of stuck and we just kept it and here we are. We years later doing we picked that name when we saddled ourselves with that we didn't think that this was going to be where we would be no seven years later. Yeah, if we did w

Taylor Johnson joins Mason on the podcast today. Taylor is a sex educator and relationship coach who is deeply passionate about helping people to supercharge their sex lives and build powerful intimate relationships. Taylor believes that sexuality is at the core of what it means to be human, and when you supercharge your sex life, you supercharge your entire life. Taylor takes a grounded, practical and real approach to his work and we're thrilled to have him chatting to us today.    Taylor and Mason discuss: Premature ejaculation and self love. Taoist sexual practice and Tantra. Tension as a global epidemic and as a major factor in sexual dysfunction. Semen retention. Sexual practice as part of a holistic lifestyle. Re-channelling sexual energy into work and creativity. Multiple orgasm and edging.   Who is Taylor Johnson? Taylor Johnson is a sex educator and coach. Taylor helps men master their sexual energy and use it to supercharge their entire life. Taylor's programs and coaching synthesise elements of Tantra and Taoist sexuality with western practicality - in a grounded, accessible and powerful way.    Resources:  Taylor's Website Taylor's Instagram Taylor's YouTube Orgasmic Mastery Course   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Mason: (00:04) Taylor, welcome to the podcast man.   Taylor: (00:06) Thanks for having me, happy to be here.   Mason: (00:09) So, can you just say a quick g'day to everyone, let them know what you're up to with your life and in the world?   Taylor: (00:16) Yeah, absolutely. Hey, everybody, thanks for listening. My name is Taylor. I am a sex educator and a consultant for men primarily, and I help men do things like overcome premature ejaculation and master their sexual energy and be able to put it into whatever they want in their life.   Mason: (00:34) Yes, sweet.   Taylor: (00:35) [crosstalk 00:00:35] version.   Mason: (00:36) Man, I really like that. That's nice and succinct, and that's something that normally doesn't happen on this podcast. But you know what, you're refined and you're refining sexual energy. So no wonder you're able to actually refine your vocabulary into something potent. It's all macrocosm, microcosm stuff.   Taylor: (00:53) Working on it. It's a practice, you know, it's a practice.   Mason: (00:56) So I really wanted to have you on this conversation. Being Brovember we're talking about men's health. SuperFeast, the people listening to community here, are aware that we're looking at a very ancient system when it comes to the herbalism being the Taoist common herbs. We're looking at how we can very sustainably with respect and with, responsibly take something that's got such an ancient lineage and make that relevant to modern times, and that's why I put that respect there. So we're actually respecting the roots, and we kind of stay within that frame, but then how do we actually bring that relevance where these things like these sexual practices or even the fact that you take Taoist tonic herbs or do Taoist sexual practices or tantric practices. How do we not bring it over so it doesn't just get caught up into an egoic identity, which I think happens a lot? Sometimes you get into these communities. I remember when I got into the yogic community, it was like out of the frying pan into the fire.   Taylor: (01:55) Right? Yeah. How do you make it practical so you don't have to spend months and months and years, [inaudible 00:02:00], these techniques that you may or might not use. This talk about in conversation to like prove your worth or something, like grounded and practical and real, that's what I'm all about.   Mason: (02:11) Ground and practical and real, absolutely. And that relevance. I mean, I was talking to you about it because like we're going to go into multiple orgasms for men. We want to go into the retention of ejaculate, and how these conversations are actually going to be relevant to a modern man and in a modern relationship, and I was chatting to you about it. I'm kind of arriving at this point where I'm feeling really nice about approaching this practice in my own life. It's kind of feeling like, I'm not chasing anything, I'm not kind of not really coming to these practices anymore from that seeking or looking to mend a pattern that I picked up when I was a kid or in my teenage years, around where my own sexuality.   Mason: (03:01) I've kind of done a lot of inner work, a lot of psychological work, psychos, just getting into it, just trying to be, whether that's around stories I had around my own cock from porn. The shame I had around my cock from stories I'd made up by being, getting changed with other boys, couple of experiences when I was a teenager, and then again, probably watching porn and being like, "Hang on. I'm coming way too quick so I should probably go to Taoist sexual practices and be able to hold my come, so I don't feel embarrassed or self-conscious when I'm in the bedroom."   Mason: (03:38) I felt like that's been quite insidious for me coming out. I've gotten to that point where I've been on the precipice of being able to really do these retention practices and then gone, years ago and gone, "You know what, I'm not coming at this from the right reasons. I'm really trying to mend something that should come from a little bit more internal psychological, alchemical, spiritual place." But now I'm really feeling like I'm arriving with a clean slate. So I'd just like to hear your take and your experience on how you personally arrived in these practices, these sexual practices, if you've got any little caveats or advice for guys who are approaching it.   Taylor: (04:24) Yeah. Thank you. I'm curious to hear more about what you're experiencing right now too maybe in a little bit. But for me, This has been, I guess ,this has been a curiosity for me, sex, since I was a teenager, right? Sex and also those deeper energetic realms of spirituality and yoga and meditation, Qi Gong and that sort of stuff. From a young age I was interested in those things and I pursued yogic practice, I did yoga teacher trainings, I did the silent meditation retreats, I studied different religions. At the same time in this different compartment of my life, there was sex, and I was fascinated by it.   Taylor: (05:00) I was super attracted to women, super curious about sex, and at the same time, all these practices that I was studying around spirituality and energy, none of them ever mentioned sex. In fact, there was almost like an anti-sex attitude in a lot of those things. And it felt like this really strange disconnect in my body and in my mind, and heart and spirit. At a certain point, I had discovered a book, I believe it's called Sexual Energy Ecstasy. It's a blue book, I don't remember exactly. It was like 12 years ago, and it gave me this idea that you could actually mix yoga and intention and presence with sex. It was this like, the beginning of a process of merging those two worlds for me that has been a sort of lifelong journey since then. But that was a really catalyzing moment, like a huge lightbulb went off in my head because there was so much programming around sex not being spiritual and sex not being good, and sex pushing it to the side, that it was beautiful to experience that coming together.   Taylor: (06:08) And so fast forward a little bit. I started to try those practices and I regularly struggled with premature ejaculation during that time. So it was a little extra motivation to dive more deeply into that. I tried it a bunch, I tried it a bunch, I had some successes and then I noticed that it started to make me feel like, "Oh, yeah. I'm a sex master." I got this all figured out and it got to my ego and got to my head, I guess sort of similar to what you were saying. There was a certain point where I had to take a step back, because at the same time, I was struggling with porn addiction, yada, yada, yada. Fast forward to now, I feel like I've come into a much more balanced place with things too. I just skipped a bunch of stuff in the story, but I'll pause there to see. You looked like you had a little hand motion.   Mason: (06:57) Yeah. I mean, if we quickly go over the practices because I'm sure we've got men and women listening who haven't read like the Sexual Mastery for Men book by Mantak Chia, haven't been in that world of looking in Taoist multiple orgasms. However, if we can just have a quick little look at what those classic exercises are. You're kind of like talking about the squeezing the PC muscle.. I remember when I, like Mantak's just like, his books are just written the way he talks. Mantak is a Taoist practitioner and teacher everybody. You might have heard Tahnee talk about him. Tahnee's gone and learned at his Tao Garden in Chiang Mai.   Taylor: (07:45) Chiang Mai.   Mason: (07:46) So she wrote the Chi Nei Tsang, the Daoist's abdominal massage and it's an absolute weapon. But his books are just like, "Okay, you're squeezing the PC muscle 500 times a day. Just when you're in the car, you just sit there and you're just squeezing them. Like that feeling when you're holding, and you need to wee really bad and you need to squeeze that muscle. Do that 500 times a day, and that's the first step." And you decide, "Okay, it's a bit ambiguous."   Taylor: (08:09) Yeah, very mechanical and very dry honestly. I didn't make it through his book in entirety. I've experienced great success without reading that entire book. So just for anyone out there, there are other ways to get there that might feel a little more heart centered or warm, or at least less mechanical and engineering like. [crosstalk 00:08:27]. Just speak to that one piece you said, the PC muscle thing. I think this is a really important thing to talk about. Because all over the internet right now if you look for how to last longer in bed, or how to overcome premature ejaculation, pretty much the majority of what's out there immediately is PC muscle exercises, "Squeeze this. Squeeze this. Strengthen that. Strengthen that."   Taylor: (08:48) But a big problem with that is, when's the last time you or anybody went to the gym for 40 days in a row and did 200 squats every day for 40 days without stretching or without taking a break, right? That would create a problem in your body, that would create a problem in my body. I wouldn't be able to walk well after that, maybe not even after day four. I need a rest day. I need to stretch and I would need to counterbalance that. So a problem a lot of guys run into when they start doing PC muscle exercises all the time is they actually put their pelvic floor into a state of tension. Tension often is what causes premature ejaculation. Relaxing that area and being able to relax that is huge. So instead of doing 100 PC muscles exercises every day, like there's some other things you can do like different yoga poses and different stretches and different breathing exercises to bring more spaciousness down there.   Mason: (09:45) Would you mind if we go into that a bit later.   Taylor: (09:48) Yeah, happy to. One other little anecdote. I went to a Tantra workshop in Thailand two years ago, and the instructor asked this room probably full of 100 people, I would say, asked the room to close their eyes and tune into their pelvic floor. For everybody listening, I'm going to invite you to do that too. As long as you're not driving, just close your eyes and notice your pelvic floor. Your pelvic floor is the area around your genitals, in between your genitals and your anus. This is your perineum. And see if there is any amount that you can relax that area of your body at all just even a little bit. Are you holding any little micro tension there, tension at all?   Taylor: (10:38) It was really interesting in this workshop. You can open your eyes now. Because the instructor asked us that question and 90 plus percent of the people raised their hand. I did too. We all had tension there and we could all consciously relax that area of our body. Then the instructor asked us again five minutes later, and still 90 plus percent of the people raised their hand. And so it was this really interesting learning process of "Oh, wow. We're all walking around with a lot of tension in that area of our body. So maybe doing kegel exercises all the time, isn't the only answer.   Mason: (11:10) That comes up in like, I feel like that's what the world's really wanting is in that releasing of tension, that relaxation. Everyone in the West is obviously so Yang. We talked about shiny things we need to strengthen. Even with eye exercises, no one's even getting the sense of like, hang on, there's musculature around there that is super tense and you need to relax. And then you look at the West, everyone's so uptight, especially around the anus, and so that muscle, that PC muscle coming from the pubic bone right around to the coccyx, is like literally tight.   Mason: (11:45) As you're saying, that constant squeezing, squeezing, squeezing, if you got a tight neck, you're going to go and get like ... I'll just be like, "You know what, I'm going to really strengthen my with that muscle right now. This is how ..." You get one of those iron neck things that put a [crosstalk 00:11:58] on your head, "This is going to fix me." It's super obvious, but we've been so ... we've gone down that route of programming ourselves. And of course we're impressionable, and so we take-   Taylor: (12:09) Totally.   Mason: (12:10) Yeah. So like then, what are we doing in ... Let's just go into it now. What is your recommendations rather than just squeezing, and then how do we get a little bit more colour to that conversation and bringing blood flow and Qi down to that pelvic floor?   Taylor: (12:28) Yeah. One of my favorite and most simple exercises to do is deep belly breathing. And you can breathe into your pelvic floor too, and it doesn't have to be complicated. It doesn't have to be this great, mysterious mystical thing. You can just take a deep breath down into your belly, into your lower belly, and it literally expands that region of your body. One of my favorite ways to have people do this for their first time, if they're not used to deep belly breathing, is to lay on their back on the ground. And then you can put one hand on your chest and one hand on your lower belly, and try to breathe into that hand that's on your lower belly.   Taylor: (13:11) You'll notice that when you really focus your breath there, and you focus on expanding that part of your body, you can feel expansion in your sacrum, in your lower spine, in your abdomen, in your pelvic floor, and that whole area of your body. If you just slowly breathe into there, it's not a forceful, like get it done sort of thing, but it's a slow, easeful deep breath. That is an amazing, amazing, simple practice.   Mason: (13:38) One thing that when I was first getting into these practices, with good intentions and in some direction just seeking and chasing something, one thing that kind of threw me off was, I was all about the deep breathing. I've grown up around martial arts, and so had that ability to breathe into my belly. And then once I was in the bedroom, once I was having sex and really releasing tension, not realizing how much tension I was actually holding within my PC muscle, in that area around my sexual organs. And naturally physiologically, you release tension, your breath and your fascia is going to be able to bring subtle movement, you're going to get a flow of Qi there.   Mason: (14:25) In the beginning, I became more sensitive. Because despite the fact that I'd had evidence that I didn't really have to worry so much around premature ejaculation, that was still my sexual baggage and story I had about myself. So I actually got a little bit thrown off around how additionally sensitive I was, in the beginning. I just wanted to kind of throw that out there, because that sensitivity is something you want, but then working through that, that kind of somewhat disassociating that just because you get that pleasurable feeling, doesn't mean you're just going to get out of control and come real quick.   Taylor: (15:07) Right.   Mason: (15:09) That was a huge insight for me. Then opening up from you, you were talking about particular stretches, poses. Are you particularly looking at the hip flexor muscle when you're stretching out in through that area? What would you be looking at?   Taylor: (15:31) Well, yes, so they are the more active things, active poses you could do to do active stretching, but one of the ones that I really like is bridge pose, and with your hips up in the air, and your shoulders back on the ground and your feet on the ground. It would be cool if we could flash a diagram of that onto the screen right now. But basically, in that pose, somehow ... I haven't fully studied anatomy and physiology, but somehow the musculature in that pose allows you to relax your pelvic floor, in a way that is really incredible. I haven't experienced that in pretty much any other yoga pose or position. It's like a deep just dropping, deep connection with gravity of your pelvic floor and to feel that ease, it's really remarkable there. That's one for sure.   Taylor: (16:20) And then, yeah, there are generally just stretching your muscles, and your legs, and your hips is also helpful. I'd say, this thing of premature ejaculation, it's more than just learning one technique, or one stretch, or three stretches. Sometimes you have to approach it from 15 different angles, because for a lot of people it's a lifestyle thing. And it's learning to switch over your entire sexual response system from what we've grown up with, and maybe what sort of habits we've built, to a new type of sexual response system. And that takes some time for a lot of people and that's normal.   Taylor: (16:53) I think it's really awesome that you spoke to the piece in the beginning, where you had increased sensitivity at first, because I did too. And I thought, Oh shit. What am I doing? No, no, no, go backwards, go backwards. And then I couldn't go back. But in retrospect, it totally makes sense. I had to deprogram myself from years of watching porn, years of habitual masturbation, years of habitual objectifying of women, and to open myself to those deeper realms of sensitivity. At first it was overwhelming, and eventually that overwhelm can turn into this greater realms of orgasm and pleasure, that don't end in ejaculation.   Mason: (17:38) Before we go into the benefits of that, and why someone would be wanting to bring that into your lives, I'm curious to hear your grounded take, is what's the piece around like, what would you say is something to be ... As you're working on this at the same time or a precursor, in terms of the sexual relationship that you have with yourself, you are cock around self love, all those kinds of things. I just like to hear your take on that.   Taylor: (18:09) Specifically you're asking me what is ... Can you say that again?   Mason: (18:14) Yeah. I'm sorry. Sometimes I do just like dance around a concept, and don't ask a very direct question. Going forth, because I kind of personally feel a huge part has been this like okay, genuine loving relationship with myself, genuine non-shame based sexual relationship with myself is necessary, and feeling this innate forgiveness, and very deep love and appreciation that I do have for myself. I get that that could become a little bit cliche when you're running around these circles. So for you who you're teaching these arts, you're teaching the retention of ejaculate and multiple orgasms, that's the shiny thing. I'm assuming that there is a substance of this, what I'm talking about of like of this self love and healthy relationship. I know, because I've seen it in your videos and you talk to it, but just I wanted to hear directly the fabric of that, of what's surrounding the shiny thing of these multiple orgasms in and around what I was just referring to.   Taylor: (19:20) Yeah. Thank you for that clarification. That makes total sense. Yeah, nobody's going to do a Google search for, "How to self love better." Very few people. But hundreds of thousands of people will search for, "How to overcome premature ejaculation." So it's like, what are people looking for? And how to have them find me or find whoever is going to help them with this issue. Yes, so I run this course called Orgasmic Mastery. It's for men, and a lot of the stuff we've already talked about is in there, and so is this piece of self love and it's really important. For me ... What would I want to say about this?   Taylor: (20:02) I have people approach self pleasuring from like as a practice, incorporating breath, incorporating some exercises, but really trying to be fully present with themselves, not fantasizing about porn, not fantasizing about any partner, but tuning into this sensations that are in their body, the feeling of sheets on their skin, the feeling of warmth or coldness of the air, everything in that present moment, just tuning into those sensations, because that's going to orient you to this deeper presence that's available to you at any given moment. When you start exploring that realm, it's possible that all sorts of stuff come up. You might realize like, Oh my God, when's the last time I took 20 minutes for myself just to give myself pleasure? That can be overwhelming and sad, or beautiful, or happy for some people. It's really sort of like opening Pandora's box of potential for energy there.   Taylor: (21:01) It translates to the rest of your life. It has translated to the rest of my life. The more time I spend in a self pleasure session, versus just like wanking it or trying to get off, the more I walk in the world with my shoulders back, the more I walk in the world with confidence and love, and I exude this deeper presence, and it's because I've been cultivating that. I don't want to come across as I have all this shit figured out and I'm a master of it. Certainly, I'm very much a work in progress still, but I do notice that the more I approach this from a grounded place of self love, the better every area of my life becomes.   Mason: (21:41) That's evident, man, and I like that you've added those caveats. However, the cultivation is evident and it comes from consistency, and the grounded place in which no one was watching all your videos and reading your articles. That's why I was super stoked to have you on the podcast, and there's not many people I'd really want to talk about this with. But I had to talk about, so I was really happy that Elena, ... So everyone like Elena, who is a mate of ours runs Instagram, who has been a family friend for many years, put us on to Taylor's work, and I was like, "Boom. Yeah." That was three days ago and here we are, just awesome, because we needed to get this in for Brovember ASAP. Get it. Yeah. Now, let's go to why we would want to retain come, sperm. Let's look at some of the nuts and bolts of it.   Taylor: (22:34) The nuts and bolts. Great. So why would you want to retain your semen? Why would you want to retain your ejaculate? The first example I'll give is just of long term relationship. Say you're in a long term relationship, and we'll just go ahead and say monogamous for this particular example. For everybody listening, imagine that you're an year and a half into this relationship, maybe two years. Now imagine that you have sex with your partner every day for six days straight and you ejaculate every day of those six days. Chances are you're not going to want to be intimate with them on the seventh day, maybe even the six or the fifth or the fourth day, depending on how old you are, depending on your lifestyle and all this stuff.   Taylor: (23:25) One of the most practical reasons you might want to retain your semen is because when you ejaculate, generally speaking, you are losing polarity. You're losing that charge in your life, but also with your partner. And if you do it over and over and over again, it can lead to a depolarization in your relationship. And then all of a sudden, you might be more reactive and you might get into a little tiff or argument about somebody who left a little bit extra on the dishes, or it opens up the possibility for discontent.   Mason: (23:55) Mm-hmm (affirmative). The hangover.   Taylor: (23:58) Mm-hmm (affirmative). Example number one. Yeah, the orgasm hangover or the ejaculation hangover is real, and it affects not only your physiology, but your neuro chemicals as well. And that's something I want to do more research on to understand what exactly it is I'm talking about, but it has an effect on your brain for I think it's up to seven to ten days or something like that, I just read recently.   Mason: (24:22) Yeah. I think that's kind of confronting when you start reading about this, it definitely was for me when I was in a position where it wasn't necessarily something, like the mastery of that skill wasn't something that I saw was really on the horizon, and I had to do some other work first. And so then what comes up is, figuratively speaking is the morality around the fact that you're leaking your Jing essence and getting into like, "Is it bad for me to be coming?" I think that's when I was just ... I remember doing this years ago that I was interested again, of going and reading the reviews and seeing the reactions to this kind of, and I imagine you get it a lot as well, about to both the book Sexual Mastery for Men and The Tao of Sex, Health and Longevity by Daniel Reid.   Mason: (25:16) I don't know if you know his work. He's just another ... He's American, I think he's in his 70s now. Lived in Byron Bay for a while so he has a bit of a name of himself around here for being the local Taoist but he teaches a lot of these sexual practices. And you read the reviews of people really reacting. They're like, "This isn't natural. This isn't something that I want to do." But from a charged place and .... What I'm liking is what's coming out now I feel in the health scene is a very non-charged, "Hey, let's just lay out some of the realities of it. Don't get into right or wrong." Even if you're not going to be retaining ejaculate and having multiple orgasms, you can still be very aware of the physiological and neuro chemical nature of what happens when you do come, and then manage your energy and yourself, and your lifestyle, and your nutrition, and hydration in order to prevent you going, exactly what you're saying, start getting to that point where you do react towards yourself and your partner when you lose your essence.   Mason: (26:27) If you're already tired, and you lose that much mineral Jing essence, that little ... Actually I've got a quote here that I think kind of like in terms of what it is. Do you know Nicolas Venette, a 17th century sexologist?   Taylor: (26:43) I don't.   Mason: (26:45) "Semen is the most refined and noblest part of the whole human frame, containing in itself the whole nature and complexion of every part of the body, or in other words being the very essence of man." And if you're losing that essence, naturally, it's just going to be like, "Well guys, like of course. That takes a lot to make it and you releasing it, maybe you're going to be a bit tired afterwards." Have you just got like, I don't know if there's anything else you want to say to that hangover?   Taylor: (27:11) Yeah. Well, something came up that I have not really thought about before, but I'm just going to go off the cuff here. You've talked about some of those people on the reviews saying, "Oh, this isn't natural. We're meant to come regularly." And it makes me think like, if we take an evolutionary perspective on how we came to be here today, like if you look back tens of thousands of years ago at our ancestors, it was a much different scenario then. Survival was top on the list. It was survival, survive, procreate, eat, fuck, sleep, repeat. The death rate was probably much higher than it is now. There were predators around, there were different people who might want to kill you everywhere, and so it was probably advantageous to be ejaculating regularly in people to help the species continue, as much as possible, right?   Taylor: (28:03) And yes, we're factories for that. We could do that as men, and some of the research points to that. They've done studies on, there's one rat study in particular, where they looked at rats in captivity. They tried to have this one rat, mate with one mate over and over and over again, and the more times it ejaculated with this partner, the less it was interested and the less energy it had. But if you put in a bunch of new female rats, then this one male rat could have sex, sex, sex, sex, and would basically have sex until it died or got sick, with the introduction of new partners.   Taylor: (28:39) So if we fast forward today, we don't have to deal, we're not in that survival mindset in the same way that we were tens of thousands of years ago, yet our biology is generally the same by all intensive research purposes. So instead of being this factory for the production of more humans, like we could harness that energy and put it into our business, put it into our entrepreneurial pursuits, put it into our art, put it into our creativity. It's an option. That's just cool. It just occurred to me like, maybe it's not natural if we're trying to create as many humans as possible so we can survive, but we're not in that scenario anymore.   Mason: (29:19) Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. I think the other nice thing is we're in a scenario where this doesn't have to be a super taboo or some hippy bullshit or something only for Taoists. This seems to be coming a little bit more of a grounded and logical conversation, which I'm really appreciating. And in that, what are you looking at in terms of primary benefits to someone's physiology, and long term health, if you start delving into this area. You've already mentioned the rechanneling, maybe you can talk a little bit more about that.   Taylor: (29:56) Yeah. Well, I'll speak to my own just personal practice of semen retention for a moment. I have discovered that my ideal ejaculation frequency is somewhere between 10 and 14 days. I can have as much sex as I want during that period or as much self-pleasure. But if I ejaculate at that frequency, I noticed that I don't suffer any of the effects of repeat ejaculation hangover. And so for me, an ejaculation hangover would manifest in my body and in my mind, with brain fog, with lack of clarity, with lack of feeling of direction and on purpose, less confidence, less zest, and just less creative energy.   Taylor: (30:37) I've noticed that I can do manual labor over and over and over again in that space, but what's more challenging for me is using my mind in creative ways to solve problems in that period of ejaculation hangover. I'm less sociable, I'm less able to hold up conversation, all that stuff. Whereas if I retain my semen, a benefit of that is more clarity, more direction of my life purpose, more feelings of vitality inside, more feelings of power. I'm convinced that people in public look at me differently if I'm 14 days in. I've done experiments with that and I think there's an energetic radiance that can sort of happen with that, and that getting into woo-woo territory. But there's something very real about that, and maybe it's just body language, maybe it's just how your eyes operate. But you know what I mean?   Mason: (31:30) Well, I mean, absolutely. I feel like in terms of being woo-woo, I mean, everybody listening to this podcast would have heard us talk about the three treasures regularly.   Taylor: (31:41) Okay, cool. Great. Awesome.   Mason: (31:41) Jing, Qi, Shen is probably like a foundation. The foundation of why we practice tonic herbalism isn't to remedy what's wrong, it is to tonify and cultivate the three energies which are the source of our life, which is the Jing, the Qi, and the Shen. So they very much understand the nature of Jing been associated with our sexual fluids, with semen and without genetic potential being the wax of the candle, in the analogy. If we can build up that wax of the candle, because whether we like it or not, we're not saying it's not like a very moral or extreme statement, what I'm saying and coming from someone who is coming.   Mason: (32:24) I'm not saying that you if you come, you're just going to keep on depleting that wax and you're going to leak your Jing and that's it for you, you're not going to be able to do this. We're just talking about almost another tool or another practice, to possibly continue to very successfully manage the wax of your candle, your Jing and your physiology. I think what you're talking about is when you're retaining that essence, and you're using it consciously or conscientiously, and you're conscientiously coming, you are building up that wax so that the flame can be nice and bright. So your Qi is cultivating and flowing so that your Shen, your wisdom, your essence is shining bright. The light coming off your candle can be brighter.   Mason: (33:06) We know that when you've got that skip in your step and that twinkle in your eye, you can notice it in people. If you've felt it in yourself when you're exhausted and tapped out, like I feel invisible when I'm like that. Naturally, I can take on a bit of a gray demeanor, verse when I'm really pumping and hydrated and I'm feeling great, I'm expressing my emotions, and I'm being responsible sexually, and cultivating energy and really connecting, fuck, you feel incredible. Of course, not that it's about that, but people notice it. So yeah, man. I think I appreciate you saying that.   Taylor: (33:43) Yeah, and thank you for saying that too. It's just meeting you now for the first time and just learning about everything you're doing two days ago, I haven't had a chance to really dive in and understand what you're sharing, but I've made it a personal mission of mine to try to take how I talk about this and make it as accessible and approachable to the mainstream as I can, because I believe in these practices and the power there. I've been sort of training myself to say less things that could be construed as the derogatory word woo-woo, just because I want CEOs to find us. I want big business people to find this. I want people who work in banks to find this because I do believe that these practices really will change the way that, how you see the world, how you see life, how you walk in the world, and I want more people to be doing this. So thanks for saying that.   Mason: (34:33) Yeah. And I appreciate you saying that as well. I mean, there is a reality and it's a confronting reality around what it means, where we build something like semen and then we release it constantly, but there's no reason why this can be decharged around being considered woo-woo, and almost this is something that was talked about in men. You can almost see that the pub, I was like, "Oh gosh, you're a bit grouchy, are you? You're in the ejaculation hangover, are you Terry? Just something that's like, it is somewhat of a reality, which doesn't mean it needs to be moralized. So I've got another quote here if you don't mind. I've never had-   Taylor: (35:13) Yeah, please.   Mason: (35:14) I got a couple from Kim Anami, just like she was talking about semen. Especially, if people who have gone down that route of the Taoists, even in Tantra, it can be very colorful and poetic, this whole thing, which is amazing. I personally love that. I'm kind of like, I've become somewhat of a tragic ... Did I just say come what of a ...? I'm somewhat of a romantic, just like a tragic in that area when it comes to talking about these things, which if that's the only way you talk about these things, it can become a little bit difficult to approach these and land them in your life. However, that's the nature of it, and especially if you look at the nature of the White Tigress in Jade Dragon traditions when it comes to Taoism.   Mason: (36:05) I don't know if you've read a lot of those books. It's really beautiful and poetic in terms of talking about these lineages of Taoism where they really were focusing on that cultivation of sexual energy. When you look at the Jade Dragon, the men's sexual, the semen retention practices, multiple orgasms, as well as the Qigong and the consumption of Jing herbs, and all these kinds of things. All they are is they're seen as spiritual practices, cultivating energy that can be then funneled into your meditation, into the work that you're doing out there into the world, and very much youthening practices as well, which can ...   Mason: (36:47) You can just think about it. If it takes fluid and minerals, and stem cells, and power, like an ATP and mitochondrial energy in order to create semen, and if you continuously release it and you need to direct all that energy to go and then constantly build it up and create it again, it's just simple science. It's simple logic, you're not going to have the essence and the enzymatic power, and the energy, and the organ power to redirect into other places, which are going to be seen as like, youthening, vitality, cultivation of Qi in other areas. So, in saying that, here is that quote from Mantak Chia, I think it was the Cultivating Male Sexual Energy, 1984. What year were you born, man?   Taylor: (37:37) '85.   Mason: (37:38) Yeah. Me is about maybe six, so this is before our time. Look at us. A couple of experts on sexual practices and meanwhile these quotes. "When hormonal secretions of the sexual glands are regularly leached out, the body is sapped at its root without a period of time, that will range from months to decades depending on the endowment of the individual, creative and sexual abilities are halved, and the ability to withstand disease and the frailties of old age is diminished". Don't know if you want to elaborate on that in any way, I'll put your two cents in.   Taylor: (38:19) I don't know what else there is to say.   Mason: (38:22) It nails it, right?   Taylor: (38:24) It does. I guess the one other piece I want to say is, semen retention, it's not like the magic bullet. I do want to say it's amazing but, and if you're not also ensuring that you get a good night's sleep, if you're not also staying hydrated. If you're not taking care of all these other areas of your life, it doesn't matter how much semen retention you do, you're still going to lose energy in all these other ways. It's like one piece of the whole picture of being a holistically minded individual. That's really important, that doesn't get talked about enough, but it isn't the only thing.   Mason: (39:01) Awesome. Yeah. And that's something, try and talk about that a lot. If you have very, very, very realistic expectations on these practices, on the tonic herbs, on medicinal mushrooms, whatever it is, if you just get it off a pedestal and just sit in it's very real relevant place, that means because you're not going to have expectations shattered, because you had something on a fucking pedestal for so long, it means you're going to have the stamina to consistently do the practice. In saying that, we were talking about having particular teachers, Taoist teachers, whether it's Mantak up on these pedestals. It's something that I think we both wanted to talk about, in terms of when approaching these things. You just want to have a jam out about that now?   Taylor: (39:53) Yeah, let's go for it. Let's go for it. I've never personally studied with Mantak, but I studied a fair amount with Michael Winn, who co-wrote the Cultivating Male Sexual Energy. He's actually based a few miles from where I live right now in Asheville. And so, that's been really convenient. Another big teacher in my life has been this guy named David Deida. I'm sure you've probably heard of him, have you?   Mason: (40:15) I do.   Taylor: (40:15) Yeah. So I've read most of his books. I did a workshop with him. Earlier this year, I actually had an opportunity to sit down with him and have a beer at a table with some other people, because I worked security at an event of his and we went out afterwards, and we just hung out. It was this really interesting process for me to, A, I had never done security at an event before. That was a trip. But, B, the most fascinating thing was, I had sort of deified him. After reading his books, after going through his workshop, I put him up on this pedestal and thought, just like all the things associated with that, like, "He can do no wrong," or "He has all the answers," or "Oh he has something that I don't," or "I need him for this, X, Y and Z."   Taylor: (40:58) It took a good half hour of being at that table with him and a handful of other people, to just whittle those away and remember like, "Oh you're just a guy, who has invested a lot of time and energy in studying this stuff, but you're still very much a human, you still struggle with things. You still don't want to be in big crowds of people. You have your own quirks just like everybody else." And it was a very humbling experience for me and a useful experience to realise, all these teachers that I have deified, even Mantak, I don't necessarily have to study with them to get the value from their material, and I don't necessarily even have to read all the material. They're not gods. I'm not a god. I don't know what else to say about that. I think it's just important to realise, you know what I mean? We're all humans.   Mason: (41:52) I think what's ... Because I think we've all gone through that, maybe, maybe not. But I'll speak definitely speak for myself, and I've had those people I'd put on pedestals, and then I've had to come crashing down. For me, it was a pattern of looking for that place that I think is right or the authority, and then attaching myself to that authority, so that I can feel ... For me, it was dietarily and health wise, that I can feel like I'm in a superior place, and I'm actually in a safe place, where I'm actually doing everything right now. That's just the case when you go ... And I can see it, you read The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida, and you're doing the Taoist sexual practice, and you look at the rest of the society, what I see, what happens is we oppose ourselves.   Mason: (42:33) A lot of the time in the beginning, we need opposition. So we oppose ourselves against society, which has taught us that pornography is the standard, that your own sexuality is taboo. So we need to kick back against that, and when we kick back against that, we look at who's on the other side of that thing we're opposing. We're trying, and so we find the leaders that we then go and deify, because in order to stay opposed to the energy of what we're moving away from, we need a deity or we need a different pole in order to go towards. And of course, it's all our own identity building. And in the beginning that can be useful, but also being aware of that charge. Because quite often what people look for then, is when they realize, hang on, I've identified with this person and making this person the deity, or just putting them on a pedestal.   Mason: (43:27) If the person you're following is in a good position, I assume like David Deida, it's good to hear he was just someone that was down to earth and just via following him or just being in his presence, you came to that realization for yourself. I feel like that's what happens with Mantak, from hearing about Tahnee being the Tao Garden and talking to him. He just sits down and eats with everyone, has chats with everyone, and talks his shit and all his students are likewise they're just like you know what? He's got his own stuff going on, and he deals with it, but we've just got a like a healthy relationship. We just go to him for the teachings and we know where the line is.   Mason: (44:06) But then there's those times when your teacher doesn't have that groundedness to defuse it in themselves, and so they parasitically ... Like they live off that energy of people deifying them, and that suck it up. And so, what we get used to is needing to find something wrong with that deity, with that person, in order to escape from their claws. Again, it's external, and then the pendulum swings and people need to get into this resentment around people who are representing this health, and teaching these ancient lineages, where it's not about them. Some people are fucking awful, and they are preying on people and they're abusing their position. But that's their shit. You need to just like de-charge and come to that position, where you just realise everyone's a human. We're all bloody equal here and it's your shit that you deify that person, right?   Taylor: (45:02) Yeah. Wow. Very well said. I'm going to go back and listen to you say that whole thing again. Thanks.   Mason: (45:07) Well, just hearing your ... This is what always happens on the podcast. I mean, and I learn personally through talking things out, and I always appreciate this podcast. Hear you talking about all these things and then it brings up some shit in myself, and I go on my rants and that's how I kind of work out these concepts internally.   Taylor: (45:32) It's great.   Mason: (45:33) First of all, that's great to hear that about David Deida, because he's such a legend. I found that book exceptionally transformational, and again, everyone ... And he's got several, but The Way of the Superior Man is just ... Imagine just having a term studying that in year nine and ten of like middle school for you guys. And parents can just go that. Parents, that's what the beauty of it, we don't have to rely on the schooling system to do it.   Taylor: (46:03) Now that's a fantasy, is bringing all this stuff, bringing everything we're talking about right now into kids, into the teenagers. Wow. How different would our society be if we did that? That's a fantasy of mine, passion somehow, maybe hopefully one day.   Mason: (46:22) Well, it's happening, for sure. Like there's parents who are exposing their kids, just and they're very grounded people. Again, we don't need to make this trippy or woo-woo, when kids can still be heavily integrated into the community, and not be ostracized by knowing about these things which go against very traditional society, if we teach them how to not grab on to these ideas, and try and become superior in themselves because they know them. Parents, you just have these conversations each and every day, appropriately based on the age, but you can just have these very responsibly. Anyway, we're all here doing it together. I think it's happening man.   Mason: (47:02) So then going into some of the practicalities again, in terms of what steps that men can be taking along this journey, and I think I'm definitely going to jump onto your course as well, and just go a little bit deeper down that route as well, because having a structure really works for me. But, what are the steps? And then can you also talk about some of the fallacies that occur, just in case everyone's heard it before. Some of the examples I'm talking about are like edging in an incorrect way, coming, edging towards orgasm, and then what are some of the fallacies there, and some of the correct ways to do it. Also, that false ejaculate retention by pushing up into the peritoneum there, or if you learned your physiology from Jackass, the Gooch, and pushing the semen and back up into the bladder. I just like to get the world of these steps that you're taking over months for men to start retaining semen.   Taylor: (48:12) Yeah. Wow. How to condense all these into some useful ... Well, I'd say the first thing to start with, sounds like a lot of people listening to this already are kind of on board, but it's just the realisation that there is something else that's possible. There is another paradigm of sex, there's another paradigm of energy and relating, and consciousness that's available, that society doesn't talk about in the grand scheme of things. So that's step one, is just to know that there's something else out there that's possible, and I'm here to say and it sounds like you're here to say, that it can be way more pleasurable and connective than the typical sex that I grew up with, and that I learned from porn.   Taylor: (48:52) And then seeking out resources. Books are a great way to start. Mantak Chia's book can be a great way to start. That book, The Way of the Superior Man, it has some awesome insights into sex. I posted about that book on my Instagram yesterday, and immediately. I think it was like less than a minute later, somebody responded with a DM that said, "That book saved my marriage. It literally saved my marriage." And then it was one of the most responded to stories I've posted in a while, with all these people saying how much it's impacted them. So books, start with books, and then YouTube. There's a lot of free information out there. Just start researching.   Taylor: (49:28) And then I'd say, another huge thing that's really important for us as men specifically, is to talk to another brother about this stuff. Talk to another man about this stuff. Find a friend who's interested, find some sort of community who's also interested in this. We're programmed often as men to do everything by ourselves, to be the sort of like lone wolf. We have to be self sufficient, self empowered, do everything ourselves. That's a problem and it's a fallacy. Having community around this, is so amazing. That was one of my favorite things about the course that we just did, was seeing and hearing about all the experiences from the guys in the Facebook group, and talking about on the live calls, and seeing different people's wins, and having them ask questions and have each other answer their questions.   Taylor: (50:19) I say that community piece is really, really important. And I think it's something as men in general, we need to step more into men's groups, men's gatherings, men's workshops, spaces for us to reevaluate how we walk in the world and that sort of thing. And then I know this is a fair amount of a tangent, but I think it's really important that we do that. And then you could take a course. You could take my course, you could take somebody else's course, if you want to go have a deeper dive into it. Not everybody wants to. I think everybody should, of course. Yeah, I'll pause there.   Mason: (50:54) Well, at least arriving at a point where it's a choice. I've heard a lot of people go like, "I've kind of learned it and then played around with it, and then I just chose that I didn't really want to have that as a practice in my life," which is kind of a nice non-charged way to go about it. Can you talk about, around anything in terms of practices for strengthening the PC muscle just very quickly, that might just shine some light on it for guys that are already taking on this practice. Maybe they've read the 500 a day kind of squeeze thing.   Taylor: (51:25) Yeah. I will hit that, and then want to speak to the retrograde ejaculation thing that you talked about, just because you mentioned it earlier. So there is this whole other thing that can happen, where some guys think that they're having a non-ejaculatory orgasm. And often that happens by using the million dollar point technique right before an ejaculatory orgasm where-   Mason: (51:48) That was the gooch was talking about everybody, to put it as they say in Grey's Anatomy.   Taylor: (51:53) Yes, putting the fingers forcefully into the perennial, and what you're actually doing there, you're still having an ejaculatory orgasm, you're just diverting your ejaculate into your bladder, instead of out through your penis. So you still lose everything that you lose during your orgasm, you still go through that refractory period. It might seem like you're having a non-ejaculatory orgasm, but if you pee in a glass cup immediately afterwards, you will see ejaculate in that.   Mason: (52:22) Do you see this happening even if they're not hitting that point, which, everyone is between the anus and the testes? That's the point we're talking about.   Taylor: (52:29) Yeah. Technically, you can strengthen your PC muscles to be able to squeeze hard enough there, that you can squeeze and divert that flow without touching your fingers. You can do it with crossing your legs. Some people supposedly can do that with intention. I don't know them. I've just heard about that. I prefer to not do that practice. If I'm going to have an ejaculation, I would rather it leave my penis and go through the natural flow, than get diverted up into my bladder. I would either rather have a non-ejaculatory, energetic full body orgasm, or a full on ejaculatory orgasm and not this sort of weird false, non-ejaculatory orgasm.   Mason: (53:10) I'm just going to ask another question here. I just want everyone to know, I'm still aware we're going to talk about edging and we're still going to talk about PC, but now I feel like somewhat of a seminal elephant in the room is, what happens to the ejaculate when you don't come?   Taylor: (53:31) Just gets reabsorbed by your body. It doesn't build up. You don't get giant testicles. It just cycles naturally internally. That's my understanding.   Mason: (53:45) Yeah. When you're going through these practices, I've heard you talk about blue balls quite a bit. I mean, can you quickly share whether it's blue balls and you feel that concentration of sexual energy? A lot of guys might be familiar, we have a deer antler velvet product and sometimes guys will take it consistently, and build up a lot of Yang Jing. I mean, a lot of sexual energy and feel charged. A lot of, you can associate that with that like, "I've got too testosterone. I'm feeling that slight frustration and aggression." What are some practices we can do to re-divert that energy?   Taylor: (54:32) Yes, I will hit on that. And I just wanted to add one other piece of clarity about what I just said, is I'm remembering that there is some evidence to show that if you do retain your semen for months, like four, or five, six plus months, then your sperm count might drop. It might go lower, so then if you're wanting to have a child ... And I'm not an expert on this, but I remember hearing this at the tantric school where I studied, I think they recommended having an ejaculation or two, before you actually try to conceive, but that's ... Do more research on that for sure. But I just wanted to add that one piece in, to [crosstalk 00:55:09] mouthful. Yeah. Can you say the last thing you just did again?   Mason: (55:14) Yeah. How are we taking that build up of sexual energy, and taking it into different places in the body? Just very simple practice.   Taylor: (55:21) Yeah. Well, there's so many different ways to do that. One of them is the microcosmic orbit, which I'm sure a lot of you listening are familiar with. Another, which I learned earlier this year on a different podcast, Sean Wes. It's a different business podcast, but they did a whole review of this book. What was it? Think and Grow Rich, and on the chapter about sublimating your sexual energy, one of the guys on there said he tried this technique. He was really attracted to this woman and feeling sexually charged, and thinking about her all the time while he was at the office, and he got out a sheet of paper and wrote down, "I am transmuting my sexual energy from this woman, and from being aroused by her, and I'm putting into my work right now." And the act of writing it down for him, it changed something in his physiology, and the solidifying of his intention on paper just shifted something internally for him. That's a very practical way to do that, and I thought that was fascinating. I've tried it a few times since then in a variety of contexts, and it works surprisingly well.   Mason: (56:25) Yeah, where your attention goes, your energy flows, right?   Taylor: (56:28) Totally.   Mason: (56:31) Completely with that, I feel like that's something that's often ... It's a pretty obvious caveat. Over the next, say like decade, it's going to be a really great endeavor for everyone to really get in touch with their sexual energy, and get an understanding, come into a deeper relationship with the nature of your creation of come, and how you're releasing it, and just watching the patterns that arise afterwards, and when you're retaining, that might just come from celibacy. It might not just be the fact that you're doing multiple orgasms. Just watch yourself because it's a reality, and give yourself time. Don't be too harsh on yourself.   Mason: (57:10) But inside of that, you're going to have to take that sexual energy at some point, and realise that it's a part of you. It's not isolated into a box, and around your dick. As you were saying, like just say, "I'm going to go put that into my work." I know that can be something very different for men. Well, how can I take something that's just used for like attraction or fucking, and put that into two hours sitting at my desk? I think most people have heard it, but it's worth reiterating again, that sexual energy, it's just energy and it's your energy, and it's just you and it is your creativity.   Taylor: (57:52) Totally. Yeah. And if you want it, a simple, practical way to try this, if you have a partner right now that you're having sex with, and you've never tried this before, I recommend having sex with your partner before you go to work and don't ejaculate. And at the end of that, to make sure you don't get blue balls or to make sure you don't get stagnation, massage your testicles, massage your perineum, do some jumping jacks, do some push ups, just to move your energy throughout your whole body, maybe some Qigong if you know, some Qigong exercises, and then go to work. And just notice what happens. Notice your levels of attention, notice your levels of motivation, and your ability to focus and concentrate. I would imagine and I would bet, that it will be different.   Mason: (58:36) Yeah. I love it. Now, I've read a couple of your blogs, and with the just talking about the difference in the type of orgasm, and what you'd be expecting from a multiple orgasm. So we're getting to this point where we we're in website, we're consistent, we're months in, we begin to procure this ability to retain our semen. What kind of orgasm are you going to be looking at? What's occurring there?   Taylor: (59:05) Yes, very good question. And if you look on the back of Mantak Chia's book it says ... I actually have this book right here. It says specifically, "Learn to separate orgasm and ejaculation." The very top line on the back of this book. And I think that there's truth to that, but it can be misleading for a lot of people. Because the types of orgasms that are the more full body, you could call it tantric, you could call it energetic orgasms. You could call it cosmic orgasms, whatever you want to call it, they're different than the typical ejaculatory orgasm. They don't have the involuntary genital contractions. They're not focused all in your penis and your general region. They could flow through your body like heat waves.   Taylor: (59:50) They can happen in your fingertips, in your heart, in your face and your nipples. You could experience energy moving everywhere and you could feel more pleasure. You could feel like your arm is ejaculating, minus the actual loss of semen and energy. And so, it's a different thing. So instead of saying, "Learn how to separate your orgasm from ejaculation," I would say, "Learn how to experience a new kind of orgasm, that's different probably from what you've experienced growing up. And this other kind of orgasm can do wonders for your health, for your relationship, for basically every area of your life and it can actually feel more pleasurable too."   Mason: (01:00:32) I mean, basically what I'm thinking there, especially if you look at those, the Taoist sexual schools, if you look at the Jade Dragon Schools, it's about cultivating this energy and to refine, and bring forth the elixir of immortality. That can be very poetic, kind of well, what is that? Are we talking about real immortality? Are we're talking about a nice long life, a rich life? What is it? However, what you were just saying in terms of that whole body orgasm, I think a lot of ... especially people who have had, whether it's psychedelics or drugs in their past, and there's been times where you can almost sit there in that peak experience of having a whole body orgasm.   Mason: (01:01:19) During these times, and we might be doing plant medicine or whatever it is, but remembering that those peak experiences are something that is innate, we do have all the ingredients of that, for lack of a better unpoetic word, the elixir of immortality, to be able to have those kinds of experiences. I'm sure whether a lot of people listening have had those, you can have a sexual experience where it's just cut and dry, and you're in and out, all those times when you might not be retaining, though you're really connected with your heart and you can feel a differentiation in the type of orgasm, where it does become a little bit more whole body and you can almost start tripping out. Not almost, you do start tripping.   Taylor: (01:02:03) You do.   Mason: (01:02:04) For sure. And there's something nice and endogenous us in that. Sorry, man.   Taylor: (01:02:10) Sorry, I interrupted you.   Mason: (01:02:12) Go for it.   Taylor: (01:02:13) Yeah. Also, I just want to be clear and transparent, that I'm not having these full transcendental, psychedelic full body orgasms every time I have sex. Sometimes when I have sex, it's just a very pleasure filled experience, and I can have orgasmic type experiences, but I'm not having like the full on psychedelic thing happen every time I have sex. My directive or my goal in sex has shifted from when I was younger. It used to be ejaculation only. Now, its pleasure, and connection, and energy.   Taylor: (01:02:52) And so, if I happen to have one of these cosmic orgasms, that's beautiful, and that's awesome, and it's not necessarily my end goal. Like I'm not going into sex thinking, "I'm going to have the cosmic orgasm." I'm going into sex thinking like, wow, A, either, "I'm so horny and turned on by you. I want to make love." And, B, like, "And I want this experience to be really connective, and awesome, and beautiful, and without going to this goal." Because with that goal oriented mindset, it sort of shapes the way sex progresses. Without that, there's a lot more openness for ebb and flow, and creativity that I have experienced.   Mason: (01:03:33) Right on man, and that's why you're on the pod, because that creation of just an open, grounded, realistic expectation on the practice is something that's necessary to make this sustainable. Let's touch back. Just there are two things I want to do. I'm just a hit, so we don't want to leave everyone hanging. Can you just explain what edging is? And could you just give a very brief touching a base of the way edging can be done? Just like whether it's ineffective versus effective.   Taylor: (01:04:06) Yeah. So real quick, edging is this practice of, if you think of sexual arousal and ejaculation on a scale of one, or zero to 100, and 95 is the point of no return, and in between 95 and 100 is your ejaculatory orgasm. Edging is the process of getting your sexual response system up to 92, 93, 94. Like that point just before ejaculation, and then pressing pause, and then doing some breathing and coming back down to maybe like 50% 70% somewhere on that scale. And the idea is to practice reaching that point, and to build your capacity to get to this higher states of pleasure and come back down. For that, it can be very useful. A big pitfall though, and a big problem with this whole edging practice that's not often talked about is, rushing to edge and seeing that area of 90% to 94% as pleasure, versus seeing that, everywhere else on that scale is pleasurable to.   Taylor: (01:05:08) And so, one problem that I ran into a bit ago, when I was doing a lot of this edging practice, I would notice that when I would self pleasure, when I would masturbate, I would rush right up to my edge, because that's where I experience "the most sexual pleasure." I would get to that edge in like a minute and a half, usually or less, because that's what I was going for. What that was doing, was training my sexual response system to go from non-erection to almost ejaculation in a minute and a half, and that translates into every sexual experience you could have from there.   Taylor: (01:05:45) Sure enough, after doing a lot of the edging practice, I thought, "I'm getting really good at going up and coming back down." When I got into the sexual experience, it was like, "A minute in, holy shit, back off." That's a danger area, and I would say be very a

In this episode, I collaborate with Hillary Melchiors from the Birth Geeks podcast, as we discuss three guiding principles for positive language during pregnancy and birth. Transcript: Hillary   Hi, Sara!   Sara    Hi Hillary! How are you? I'm just fabulous. I'm so excited to be talking to you.   Hillary   Ditto, I'm a big fan. I totally fangirled when I met you, by the way. Do you remember that?   Sara   Oh, I totally remember. It made my evening. I was so nervous. And then I was like, people know me and appreciate me! It was very awesome. I really appreciate it.    Hillary   Oh, anytime.    Sara   Okay, good. Let's set up another meeting time so you can fangirl again. Okay, so yeah, this is Hillary Melchiors, right?    Hillary   Yeah!   Sara   I actually just listened to your podcast so that I would say it right. But just the little intro part, like how does she say it? Okay, and Hillary is a podcast host too, over at the Birth Geeks. I'm going to see if I can remember your slogan... I know it's something about...oh: "Upping the--" but up is not the verb you use-- "Something, the professional something, getting the conversation, upgrading the conversation and something your professional mox--"   Hillary   --helping you renew your professional moxy   Sara   There we go, ok! "Upgrading the conversation, helping you renew your professional moxy."   Hillary   Do you know, one of my daughters, actually, we had our kids record the tagline. And she kept saying "PROfessional" and we were laughing so hard. It's really cute. And this is Sara Pixton. Sara is a doula in Utah, but she's also a podcast host of Birth Words. So she's also a linguist, which I love, as a language nerd myself.   Sara   One of my very favorite things that happened on social media was on Instagram a couple of weeks ago, somebody tagged me and was like, "There is literally a podcast for everything. If you're a word nerd and a birth geek, I just found your thing!" And I was like, I'm so glad I fill that niche for you!   Hillary   Right? And now we are here.   Sara   Yes, the word nerds, the birthy, wordy, nerdy geeks. That was a really, really good introduction.   Hillary    Yes.    Sara   I just have to comment one other thing, that your pin from the EBB conference, that "I'm a Birth Geek" pin that was like in the swag bags or whatever, my daughter found it the other day and was like, "What does a  birth geek mean?" And I was like, "It just means you just know and love every single thing about it." And she was like, "Great, can I wear the pin?" And then she had this kind of like identity crisis throughout the rest of the next few hours that she was wearing it where she was trying to defend her right to wear the pin, but like not totally sure that she wanted to commit to everything that it represented. She was like, "I'm a birth geek, because that means I love everything...well, I don't know if I love everything about birth, but like, I really like the pin."   Hillary   Yeah, so we're recording this on Halloween it's going to be a little bit before we publish, but I wanted to tell you that my Birth Geek friends always have the best costumes. So one of my Birth Geek friends in Texas, she actually is dressed up as the IUD today.    Sara   Oh, wow! Can you put a picture of that in the show notes?   Hillary   I should. Well, I have to ask her...   Sara    If it's with consent.    Hillary   I mean she's, she's technically, like, the reproductive system, because her hands have the ovaries on them, but very much the middle of her sweatshirt is a big IUD. Fantastic.   Sara   Alright.   Hillary   So hi! So today we're going to be talking about... what are we talking about Sara?   Sara   We're talking about your top three tools to improve communication during pregnancy, birth and the postpartum period. Yeah.   Hillary   Well, and as a doula, I really do try to get my my clients to communicate with their care providers more effectively. I think that's really important. Especially,because you have such a limited amount of time with them before the big day. So, you have to really be careful.   Sara   Yeah. And you're probably one of many, many clients that they have, right. I mean, depending on circumstance, but especially if you're at a ob clinic, right? Right. Um, so yeah, knowing how to have that effective communication, really important.    Hillary   Absolutely. Well, and also, you know, as a doula, making sure that I'm communicating well with my clients and in a way that they want me to, I think that that's also good.   Sara   Yeah. And then I think from your clients perspective, obviously, they're communicating with you, they're communicating with their care provider provider, they're communicating with nurses in the hospital, they're communicating with friends and family members who have maybe just different opinions, or thoughts, or stories about pregnancy and birth that might be thrown at them at any moment, with or without warning.    Hillary   That sounds like you have personal experience there.   Sara   I have just, you know, like, maybe not even, I mean, some personal experience, certainly, but also just experience of listening to others stories, and experiences. So, I think that the things the tips that we're going to touch on will help you navigate all of those situations, because I think that the way that we talk and interact with other people makes a big difference in our experiences.    Hillary   Absolutely.    Sara   We're going to first talk about being intentional.   Hillary   What does that mean to you, Sara? To be intentional, with their language?   Sara   That's a really good question. Um, to me, it means a few things. One, is being aware, like we've been talking about, of the effect of the words that you produce, and also the discourse that you've been bathed in throughout your life, whichever ones they are. Just being--and now I'm kind of branching over into reflective, you can't really separate all of them, but we're trying--So intentional, just being aware that the way that I speak, and the words that I choose to incorporate in my belief system, and my feelings, and my experiences, make a big difference. So, I'm going to make sure that the ones that I'm using are positive and confidence building, right?    Hillary   Absolutely. Well, and as a doula, I feel like I'm combating a lot of the messages that my clients are getting from elsewhere. And so, when I'm more intentional about my language with clients, I think that that's very helpful for them. At least I, maybe I'm fooling myself that I'm not.   Sara   I don't think so at all. I'm totally going to jump on board with that and say, yeah, because I think sometimes we're not intentional, but we're just, like, using the lingo that is used without pausing to consider, like in my Birth Words Community Facebook group yesterday, we just had this big discussion about the word deliver or delivery, which some people have strong feelings about, some people not as much. Some people feel like "I don't mind it if the mom is saying 'I delivered my baby,' but really mind it if the doctors are saying 'I'm going to deliver you, or deliver your baby,'" right? So we just had this big conversation about it, and one thing that just was brought to light is that some really, often not intentional, or, again, reflective is the next thing we're going to talk about, but we just choose words because, well, that's the one that was in What to Expect When You're Expecting or whatever. And so, I figured that's the word that we use.   Hillary   Right. Well, I think also being intentional about even something really minor, like pronouns, for example.  You know, making sure that you're intentionally using inclusive language. That's very important to me. It's not for everybody, and that's okay. I don't know if it's okay. But it's a thing.  And I think that that's important as well.    Sara   Yeah, and, in addition, like, okay, we talked about pronouns, and nouns, and this can be from a gender neutral perspective, or just from a perspective of being empowering, which we'll talk about as our third prong. Now I've revealed all of them, there's no more dramatic tension except that Hillary's going to apparently surprise me with something down the road. So, don't tune out now, just because I've spilled all three beans. But yeah, I've been talking about just the words like client versus patient. What am I saying when I'm calling somebody a patient? What am I implying about their position and their abilities to make decisions and to, you know, just be an empowered participant?   Hillary   Yes, you're making my medical anthropologist heart very happy right now.    Sara   Oh, good! Tell me why.   Hillary   Well, that, that distinction, actually, between client and patient, I think, it's a powerful one, because of power distinctions. Right? Because a midwife, they intentionally say client most of the time, at least the ones I work with, and that's intentional because they work with people, right? They don't work on people, working on people. It's a little different. It's just a different perspective.    Sara   Oh, I was just getting excited about like we've talked about pronouns, nouns. Now we're talking about prepositions. Like it's all so important! We're working with people not on them. I love that distinction. And, yeah, I love it. Okay. And my other, back to nouns, my preferred noun is birthgiver because it's empowering and inclusive.   Hillary   No, it's great. I think that's fantastic. I think it's important.   Sara   Oh, I wanted before we move on from intentional, I also wanted to talk, just from the birthgiver's side of things, being intentional in the way that you and interact with your care provider, like we talked about the importance of, you know, making sure that you're having those conversations, but also being intentional about what you let in too, you know what I'm saying?   Hillary   Yes. Have your earmuffs they filter everything, right?   Sara   Yeah. Or I mean, or maybe there are things that have already been led in decades ago that are just like part of your identity as a birthgiver that are not helpful. Like, what do you do with that? Well, maybe you need to intentionally work through them and figure out, and again, we're going into the reflective portion... You can't really separate it out. But saying like, "Where did this come from? Do I place value in that? Can I separate myself from it?" And just like working through until you're left with an identity that is intentionally chosen and not just, kind of, what was thrust upon you.   Hillary   I love it. It's almost a bridge from like being intentionally reflective.     Sara   There we go. Let's bridge Let's go there.    Hillary   Yeah no, I think we should reflect more on our own language, before we open, as we sit here and talk.  No, I think that a lot of there's a lot of unconscious bias and things that we say and we don't realize it. And I think, so, reflecting on the reasons for your word choices, I think that's also important.   Sara   Yeah. Again, like just pausing and saying, "Oh, what just came out of my mouth?" or "What am I about to open my mouth and say?" would be the best place to pause. But sometimes, like a random example that comes to mind, I, for a while, was a volunteer doula at a local hospital that has a volunteer doula program. And so, I had a couple of women that I talked to that were maybe interested in my sport but they were, kind of, not quite ready for it yet. And I was going to go take a lunch break, and I was just telling the charge nurse, or, I don't remember who I was, the care coordinator that I was going to go down to lunch, but there were these people that were maybe interested in my sport so here's my phone number if they get to a point where they're like "Yeah, have her come," call me back up. Um, but I remember having this conversation with her and saying like, Oh yeah, I have these two or three patients in rooms blah blah, blah, blah blah. And then being like, wait, okay, A) I'm not even a care provider. Like I'm a volunteer doula. B) I had purposely avoided using that word, I wasn't quite as mindful about it at this point, but from that point where I was like, "What just came out of my mouth?" I've been really reflective about like, why did I say that? Where was it coming from? And part of it, I think, was like wanting to be savvy with the nurses, and use their lingo and whatever but if we're really reflecting ...Wow, yeah, yeah.   Hillary   No, I was just gonna say like, it sounds to me like you were mirroring, right? Like, no matter if she said one word to you at all, you know that she's a nurse. So you're almost, you know, like, "Okay, now I'm talking to the nurse. So we're going to talk about patient."   Sara   Yeah. So from the other side of it, when I was pregnant with my first two babies, because they're twins, I was on hospital bed rest for four weeks.  And that was totally something that I did during my time there, is that I started to mirror the nurses lingo.  Because I wanted to, you know, show them that I was smart and could like play their game and whatever.  Not that they were trying to play games. They were taking good care of me, I was in early labor at 30 weeks and we didn't want that to happen.  And they came at 35, so we hung on for a while. But yeah, I kind of wanted to use their lingo and very much became, I don't know, it was kind of this tricky place between, I was trying to empower myself as a patient, right? I was trying to be like, "See, I'm the savvy patient!" But I was very much assigning myself in the role of patient by just using all of this terminology that was very much placing me in that position. And a lot of ways, I was, there were a lot of medical needs that were needing to be cared for. But then I think it really affected my birth experience, when I was in labor that I had been in this position as a patient, using all the patient lingo and wasn't as intentional or thoughtful about the choices that I made during my labor.   Hillary   That is interesting. Well, I was just thinking, as a doula I tried very hard not to, like overly use the medical language.  So, I feel like sometimes I'm like this cultural broker, not to be too anthropological.  But, you know, I can speak the medical language, I can give you the two minute rundown of everything that's happened, with all the abbreviations. Like, I know how to do that. But I intentionally try not to do that with my clients.   Sara   Right. Because what position does that put them back in?  Like they're part of a medical system, and if they're trying to birth in a natural physiological system, whether that's at the hospital or not,   Hillary   I was going to tell you, I did have a client who made me much more reflective on my language than I ever really thought about before. I got the opportunity to serve surrogate clients. And that really made me much more reflective about how I spoke to her. And, you know, she was excited, but for much different reasons than a lot of other people that I had the opportunity to serve. And it was a very interesting, it was very interesting, it made me so reflective, it just made me think, "Oh, wait, no, no, you're not, that's not your baby." And I took a really great training online actually, that made me think more about, you know, how I was going to speak to this person.   Sara   Yeah, I think that's a really good example. Because like, because then I bet going forward, you were more reflective about the language that used with all your other clients, even if they weren't surrogate parents because you realized that they are unique individuals, right? That should be spoken to in unique ways based on their--   Hillary   I may or may not have revised my entire website. Because I really enjoyed that process. And, I mean, that person in particular, is really lovely. And I was like, "Man I would love to do that again, I should make sure that, you know, my website and everything that I publish, you know, reflects that I want to be a part of that." So, and I know how to serve those people in a way that they would like to be.  So that that was a really, it was I felt like it was on the job training. But really, really rewarding.   Hillary   So the last one is empowering. How do you make sure that your language is empowering?   Sara   Well, we've talked about a couple of things and obviously, they're all intertwined and it comes a lot from being reflective saying: "What am I doing when I refer to my client as a patient? What is that implying about our relationship and her abilities to make decisions to birth without assistance?" etc, etc. And so we've talked about that, we've talked about using intentionally empowering terminology like birthgiver, like, giving birth versus being delivered, right? I also think, as we're talking about reflection and the unique experiences and needs of each client that you serve, or if you are the one giving birth, as you're reflective, as you're considering, something that I do with my clients is have them just sit down and think about "Okay, what are my feelings and beliefs about birth as a process?" Okay, next step, "What are my feelings and beliefs about myself as a birth giver?" And then if a partner is there doing it, "What are my partner's feelings?" Well, the partner fills out: "What are my feelings about my partner's abilities or role as a birthgiver?" Okay, what about the roles of authority figures? Because that comes up.  And different people are positioning themselves in different ways, and you're accepting or rejecting different authority figures throughout the whole process.   Hillary   I am a big rule follower and Robin makes fun of me for that. There's a story, I'll tell you later.  Yeah, no, no, it's just, we were driving and I was like, "Oh, I can't do that. That's against the rules." And she was like, "It's okay. Going somewhere..." It's silly.    Sara   Yeah! Okay. But like, that's, okay so, but let's go with that. Because, we're talking about being reflective about various things that are going to come up in birth. And then, I was gonna say for the empowering part, then you work through, like we've talked about, the reflection: where's this coming from? And you choose, intentionally, again, looping back to being intentional, those things that are empowering. So, if Hillary's giving birth, and is a total rule follower, it really matters who you see as an authority figure, and what role you're going to let that authority figure play.  Like, if you see, if your care provider is, like, I don't want to do a negative stereotype, whatever, but if it's an obstetrician with a 50% cesarean rate, and you are induced for some medical reason, and you see your care provider is an ultimate authority figure--who has proven through their practice that, you know, they often choose those choices that lead towards the path of a cesarean--and you're just saying, "Okay, yes, yep, you're in charge," then you have a 50% chance of having a cesarean birth, which, obviously, is not in alignment with, like, the actual physiological medical needs for necessary birth.    Hillary   Yeah, and sometimes I feel like, well, so again, to put on my anthropologist hat, a little bit, I think that, you know, we're taught in our culture very much to respect the medical profession. And I think that that's a, it's a good thing. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but respect versus, like, doing literally everything you're told and never questioning anything is a very, very different thing. And so, respecting authority versus, like, bowing down to it, I think that you need to make that fine distinction.   Sara   Yeah, like you're saying that we are absolutely, I'm not and I don't think Hillary is, advocating for, of course you're not being disrespectful to care providers, or like we are not saying like, go be a belligerent like, "No I won't _____!" That's not going to be a helpful way to communicate with your care provider, A).  B) It's not the respect that a human being deserves, especially one who is in a service oriented profession and serving you. C) I don't know... all the things!   Hillary   I feel like you should be empowered to be as respectful, like to be mirroring respect, right? So if someone is being completely disrespectful and talking down to you, that's different than someone coming to have a conversation with you, like, "This is my opinion. These are the reasons why I'm recommending this." You know, that's a different story than, walking in and saying, "Hey, you're going to have a cesarean because it's 4pm and I have a tee time."  I literally never heard that phrase uttered by a physician before. Never.   Sara   Mutual respect, and I think that that goes along with being intentional about who you place in authority as an authority figure. No matter how you position yourself. In some ways, whoever you choose as your care provider is going to have some level of authority at some point during your birth experience. And so, you want there to be that level of mutual respect that, "Wow, my care provider respects and honors my authority as the one with the baby in my body, with the intuition to know the best choices for this circumstance, and with the power to and the ability to birth this baby." And not choosing somebody who doesn't respect your position as somebody bringing life into the world, somebody, you know, a care provider that sees you more as a patient who's a passive recipient of care, that's not going to be able to have that mutual level of respect. And really not going to be an empowering position for either person.   Hillary   I really loved how you incorporated all three resources into that.   Sara   Oh, well, there you go! That was my concluding.    Hillary   I think that was fantastic! Uh, Sara?    Sara   Yes, Hillary?   Hillary   Are you ready for my silly question?    Sara   I'm ready for your silly question.    Hillary   Have you seen the BFG or read the BFG?   Sara   I have read it. I have not seen it.   Hillary   This has inspired the question that I chose, so that's your warning.    Sara   I'm a little scared.   Hillary   Would you rather burp bubbles or fart green fumes?   Sara   Burp bubbles!! Bubbles are magical.   Hillary   Agreed. How fun would it be to just be drinking soda all day and have little kids follow you around the zoo while you burped bubbles?   Sara   I mean, like, I hope that I could do it kind of politely    Hillary   Oh see and I was imagining you, like, leading a parade while you're burping out bubbles!   Sara   Well, either way, I still would prefer the bubbles.    Hillary   I would be so proud if I could burp bubbles. Green fumes not so much.  It would be a little more embarrassing.   Hillary   I really appreciate you taking the time, Sara, I know that we're in different time zones, and you only let me fangirl once so far when we met in person.  I really, really appreciate you taking the time. Especially because I know that your podcast is typically much shorter than ours, because we are chatty. Not that you're not chatty, but   Sara   I like to be chatty. I just restrict sometimes.   Hillary   I love it. I think that's fantastic.   Sara   Well, thank you. Thanks for chatting with me. I appreciate your perspective. And, what are you laughing about?   Hillary   I was like, "Oh, I have a perspective!"   Sara   Yeah! Your medical anthropology perspective, you pulled that hat out two or three times.   Hillary   I honestly I never take it off. I got to interview one of my grad school professors for the podcast and I think it was after we were finished. She was like, "You're doing such a great job using your PhD!" And I was like, "Aw, that was maybe the best compliment I ever got." So, I just, it never turns off. That's all right. Robin did get upset. Robin got upset because I, we were in Las Vegas together and she said, "Do you ever turn the anthropologist off?" Like, no, not really. Sorry   Sara   I like it. Keep it coming.    Hillary   Thanks Sara!   Sara   Thank you, Hillary.

Today I am so excited to share with you, a very special interview, with the amazing Kristin Crockett. Once upon a time, Kristin Crockett was living the American Dream – she was making all the money, she was top in sales in her career. She had the beautiful house, she had the husband, she had a beautiful family. Yet she was overweight, she wasn't feeling fulfilled, she felt this missing piece in her life. I think this is something that many women can relate to. I had just turned 40, I had gained a bunch of weight, I had never had a weight issue before. I decided to cut my hair. After cutting my hair, my husband, who is desperate to figure out what was going on with me. He thought to himself, what can I do to help my miserable wife be happy? So, he's like, what do you need? That's what we all want, somebody to ask our needs. And I said, I need hair extensions. Like that was my answer to why I wasn't happy. So, I went out and spent $2,500 on hair extensions. I looked good for about three days, and then my friends had to do an intervention after a month. My hair extensions were not the way to make me happy, and it wasn't how I ultimately found that contentment on the next piece of my journey. Kristen shares with us how to create the mindset to gain the success that we truly deserve, and to raise the bar on what we believe we deserve. It worked for Kristin, she lost over 80lbs, gained the personal freedom of self-expression, and expanded her confidence and courage. Keynotes discussed: I had the kids, I had the husband, but there was just something missing and I couldn't put my finger on it. (04:45)My unconscious mind had its own itinerary. So when you've got this, almost like these two worlds that come together, it shows up in reality as resistance and it, for me it was resistance to action.  (13:20)So when you get your magic wand out, you get to take that and just kind of silence that inner critic, and that's what the magic wand does. And then be able to say, well, this is what I'd actually really want.  (21:24)So that's what I, I just today, let's all do something courageous that feels uncomfortable, that we know we should be doing. (28:31)These are all these ideas that come to me when I wake up in the morning, and I keep a journal next to my bed because anytime I have an idea or something, you know, floats into my brain, I write it down. (32:20) Learn More About The Content Discussed... No Boss Talk:https://nobosstalk.comKristin Crockett on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DeserveLevelCoachKristen’s New Website: https://www.courageousdestiny.comThe Camp Elevate Facebook Group:hereBeth’s Instagram:@bethholdengravesBeth’s website:https://www.bethholdengraves.comProfit HER Way Course:https://www.bethholdengraves.com/profitBe sure to leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and share it with a friend that would get some value!Beth's website: https://www.bethholdengraves.comCamp Elevate: https://www.bethholdengraves.com/camp-elevate Episode Transcript… Beth:Welcome to 'You're Not the Boss of Me'. If you are determined to break glass ceilings and build it your way, this show is for you. I'm your host Beth Graves, and I am obsessed with helping you to not just dream it, but make the plan, connect the dots and create what you crave. Are you ready? Let's get started.Let's get started. Welcome back. I am so excited. I have an incredible guest on this episode. Her name is Kristen Crockett and I am going to do a little intro and first of all, I love to tell people, because a huge thing about my life is I seem to get these awesome connections with women and it's because I always ask questions. So, a friend of mine, Yvonne, who gave me permission, met Kristin and started working with her and Deserve Coaching and I started to notice the shift with Yvonne. Like something was different, and I'm like, what are you doing? Like you know when someone has a new boyfriend or a new haircut or they've got something, she had this glow and I'm like Yvonne, like what is going on? Are you having good sex? Like what's the story?She introduced me to Kristen and yeah, so I am going to just read it. It's almost reading, but I'm looking at her bio because Kristen, when I first talked to her, she was interviewing me for a book she's writing, which she'll share, and she said she had it all, the American dream. She was making all the money. She was top in sales in her career. She had the beautiful house, she had the husband, she had a beautiful family, yet she was overweight. She wasn't feeling fulfilled. She felt this missing piece in her life. I know I can relate. Kristen doesn't know the story. I'm going to have Kristen continue to share what she did from that moment. But I think this, many women will relate to. I had just turned 40 and I had gained a bunch of weight. I had never had a weight issue and I also decided to cut my hair.And I'm looking at Kristen cause we're live together. She's got this adorable haircut, it is sassy. I cut my hair. So, I had gained weight. I cut my hair and my husband who is desperate to figure out what can I do to help my miserable wife be happy? So, he's like, what do you need? What do you need? Like that's what we want someone to ask our needs. And I was like, yeah, I need hair extensions. That was my answer to why I wasn't happy. So, I went out and spent $2,500 on hair extensions. I looked good for about three days and then my friends had to do an intervention after a month. Like this is not a good thing for you. So anyway, hair extensions were not the way to raise my Deserve level and it wasn't how I ultimately found that on that next piece of the journey. So, Kristen, hearing that, I'm sure you get clients that were in my position all the time. Can you share your story, your journey, and how you ended up leaving that corporate high paying job to help women just like me?Kristen:Absolutely. So, I love the hair extension story. I think it's a really great illustration about something outside of me is going to make me feel better. Right? It's something else. It’s kind of circumstantial. Something is going to make me feel better. And for me, that's really where my story started. So, I had the beautiful home and it was gorgeous, you know, 4,800 square feet, so the granite counters and the warming trays and that, this and the that. And I loved my house, but it's like I bought all of the things that people who are incredibly successful buy, and I put them in a house, and I was terribly unhappy and didn't know why. I have everything, I have everything that I've ever wanted. And yet, you know, I had the kids, I had the husband, but there was just something missing and I couldn't put my finger on it and I just kept gaining more and more weight. I was overweight my whole life. So, it wasn't like a matter of a period in life or right after I had my kids, I had put on 80 pounds, you know, I had actually carried 80 pounds upwards of 20 plus years. And when I met my coach, I was almost 40, so that turning point in my life where the triplets were old enough that they didn't quite need me as much. They were five. So, of course they did.Beth:I just have to pause. Did you hear that ladies out there? Triplets? I hear, I was on my bed crying and I had independent kids that were not triplets. This woman gave birth to three at once. Just want to point that out.Kristen:It was funny because that moment, because what was happening was for so long everything was one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three. You know, it's like change the diapers, make the bottles, do this, do that. There was no time to go, ‘Oh, who am I?’ You know, what is this world about? Why was I born? There was nothing like that in my life, you know. It was just one, two, three. And if I wasn't doing one, two, three, I was going to work and I was working at a technology organization and I just go, go, go. It was like at that hamster on the hamster wheel, you know, that just keeps spinning around.Beth:When did you go? So, one thing that comes to me there, and this is like off topic, is - don't you wish as a mom that's surviving motherhood and I know there's resources out there. I wish I had known about journaling and known about meditation and getting my brain in the right and even just the Breathe App for goodness sake. Putting that in while I was breastfeeding could have changed a lot. So, maybe it's because we're in a more evolved space that I think all moms know about those things, but that's something I always think, okay, what can I do today to contribute to someone else's life? And I have three young moms I'm thinking about, I'm just going to buy them the Breathe App for a year and say use this. Yeah. Okay. So, you're in this hamster wheel and you made a shift. Like, how did you come across the Deserve Coaching? Like how did it come across your plate?Kristen:So I did a lot of complaining in those days and I complained to a woman that I work with and she was one of these women who, you know, seemingly on the outside just had it all, you know, she was a pilot, she was amazing at sales, she was a yoga instructor. She, there was just no limit to this woman. And I love that about her. I had a lot of respect and she was also incidentally one of those people that doesn't allow you to complain to her without giving you something to do about it. And I'm so grateful for that today, because right. What I complained to her, she's like, I'm going to give you something to do. I want you to call my brother and my brother's a coach.Beth:Oh my gosh. Yes. Awesome. That's what I'm going to start doing when people start complaining to me, I'm just giving them your number. There you go. Okay, so you started on, that's a scary move for someone. And I know that our listeners, one of the big reasons that I asked you to come out and we were talking about your book, I ended up turning it into my own private coaching session. We never really got to the book, but one of the things leading a large group of women, that when I had a huge compelling reason, when I started in sales and even though it wasn't always comfortable for me to make those calls, get on the zoom, have gatherings in my house because you know, your house is never ready. The compelling reason was so strong that I didn't stop to consider what do other people think? Why shouldn't I do this? But when people get comfortable, like you are very comfortable, you're making the money, right? So, you obviously, your compelling reason for making that call was you felt like "Bleep"!Kristen:Right? Yeah. I really felt powerless. I mean, now I know, I didn't even know what that meant at the time, you know? But I felt powerless. I had, there was nothing that was going to change my life. In fact, my first call with my coach was, well, here you go. And I complained to him for a half an hour about how, you know, everybody out at work was against me. And you know, there was no time to eat healthy. And I can't even manage to brush my hair half the time when I'm getting the kids in the car and getting them out to school, let alone try to make an egg or prepare something healthy for myself. Are you kidding me? And so, I just, I had no power. I no power to change my life. And that is when after he listened, I don't think I've ever had anybody just listened to me. Like I just, Oh, like, I'm like, wow. And then he goes, okay, Kristen. He goes, I want you to consider something. He goes, we get in life what our unconscious mind beliefs we deserve.Beth:And wait, say it again. Because with bells and whistles. Say it again. We get in life…Kristen:We get in life what our unconscious mind believes we deserve.Beth:All right. And I want to like, I want to stop here because he gave you that message and I know I spent a lot of years calling bullshit on people like you and saying, Oh really? Come on. You just have to get in the game. You have to work hard; you have to do the thing. Like, and I used to say that about people. I would get up at five in the morning and run. I was at the gym; I was probably on the obsessive side of fitness. And my sister would say to me, don't be so quick to judge because you haven't been in the shoes of someone that is. And I got into those shoes when I had let the health side go. So, I used to always say, well, if they wanted it, it's almost like telling someone with a mental illness to just be happy.Right? And so, when someone's feeling like getting out of bed in the morning and putting on their running shoes, like they're not springing up at every step out of bed is like walking across glass because it's so painful to take that action. Some people might say, well, that's just lazy. You've just got to do it. You've just got to do it. When suddenly this door is opening and evolving in my head of, they can't figure out how to do it. How is the subconscious mind playing into that story? I love to give strategies and solutions. I've spoken on stages about, all you do is put a hundred sticky notes on a wall and you move 10 a day, and Yvonne, who introduced me to you, she's like, yes, I know I need to move 10 a day. But me as a coach was like, well, why aren't you moving the 10 a day?Which made me realize there's a reason and that's that subconscious mind. So how does that, you obviously went through the coaching you learned about the Deserve level and how to raise the Deserve level, right? So, somebody listening is like, okay, I know all the things. I have, all the checklists. I have all the diets. I mean, how many of us have bought $70,000 worth of diets? We even know what we need to do to get our marriages back on track, but we just don't freaking do it. And did the bell go off in your head that day when he said that about your subconscious mind, and can you explain a little bit behind the science about that?Kristen:I would be happy to. So, when he said that, and you got to remember I had complained to him, I was in my own head and he woke me up like it was like bam, I'm up. It was the way he said it and I knew I could trust him instantly when he said that because of the way he said it. So, a little bit behind the science of Deserve level, it's our unconscious 5 percent of the way that we think. So, our unconscious mind has its own, you know, it's handling our actions. You know, a lot of people say, Oh well I'm on autopilot. It's like if you wake up at 3:00 AM and your alarm clock goes off and you're used to waking up at 5:00 AM every day, it's like, have you ever heard the stories where people are like, Oh my gosh, I got totally ready for work.I got in my car and the next thing I know, I realized I had three more hours. I could have slept. Well. The unconscious mind takes over, right? Going through all the motions, and that's what controlling most of our actions is. Our unconscious mind. So consciously, I could look at an exercise program and I could go, Oh, well I know all the tricks. I've been on weight Watchers for 20 years of my life. You know, I know how much to eat. I know portion control. I know how to weigh food. I know how to exercise. I had been an athlete, but my unconscious mind viewed me as the big girl, just mine viewed me as somebody without self-discipline. My unconscious mind viewed me as somebody who was going to break every single rule that anybody who was a diet practitioner would give me. My unconscious mind had its own itinerary. So, when you've got this, almost like these two worlds that come together, it shows up in reality as resistance and it, for me it was resistance to action. Does that make sense?Beth:Yeah, because I resist authority.Kristen:Yes.Beth:I’ve resisted authority, but I was always…they don't really know I'm resisting them unless they're smart. Like you are well trained in it, so let's take that. I know that. So, if you are coaching someone, because I think that before people, like I know that listeners are thinking, Oh my gosh, she's inside of my brain. They did. They like crawled inside of my private sacred space where I hold all my secrets. I want to tell you if you're listening, that even if you, you look at somebody that has it all together, they're winning, they've got the car, the house, the marriage, the job at any level of success this comes to play in order to get to the next step, the next step or two. I think it is for me right now.When I started in 2014 it was hard for me to say I'm not happy because I didn't want to disappoint those people. My husband was like, how can you not be happy? Look at what we have. Or even my daughter came to me and said, mom, what you posted about 2014, like it makes it sound like you are sleeping in bed all day. We were a family. We were having fun. And to not disappoint those people to say I needed something more from me. And so that piece of it, but also there's so many people and women, and I'm thinking of one in particular, that she needs something more for herself and I keep giving her an action plan to take the steps. There's a big financial chaotic piece going on right now around money and there's no action being taken to make the money that they need.So, the missing ingredient to me is the total and complete Deserve level that she's experiencing. So, if you were to, and this is you guys get ready…because what would be the first step of someone if they're like, I'm not quite ready to do some coaching. I know we're going to give everyone resources. There's a lot of free things that you provide if people aren't just wanting to learn and there's a book coming out. But what are you going to tell? I'm going to call her Mary, what will you tell Mary today who is looking at the sticky notes, or the action plan, or the phone, and she's just not doing it and she knows that it's in her hands? But it's just this or me eating, you know, two years ago, I know I'm not supposed to be eating this mint chocolate chip ice cream out of the carton at night, but you know, screw my trainer Amy because I'll start tomorrow and then I'll fool her Friday because I won't eat carbs for three days and she'll never know about the ice cream, when like Amy didn't care about the ice cream. All Amy wanted to do was help me achieve these goals as a nutrition and diet coach. So, like that's a lot that I just threw at you. But that's all. That's all people sabotaging success and happiness because of the crap in our brains, right?Kristen:So, first thing that I would do is, give her to this person who knows not to eat the chocolate chip ice cream or knows not to do these things, but is doing them anyway. I give them my listening, you know, because I can listen beyond just the surface so I can hear where somebody’s ego becomes engaged. And the reason why I can share it so well is because I spent so much of my life in that place, and I worked really, really, really, really rigorously to get out of it. And I worked on really untangling my own ball of yarn in my unconscious mind, you know, and really weaving it out one decision at a time, that created all of the stories and contexts in my brain.Beth:So, I love that one decision at a time. So how does the work begin? How does Mary or Belinda or Danielle whoever, want to start with that one decision at a time? And I'm a true believer in this. I told you that before, my solution is to hire a coach. But you can't hire a coach and like build out. Let's say you want to build out a funnel to bring leads your way, but you don't do the work and you don't connect with the customers. Same thing here, but one decision at a time to raise that Deserve level that, yeah. Okay, I deserve to have a healthy, hot body and feel good about myself when I get dressed in the morning. How does somebody start? Like what do you do to start that process?Kristen:Well, what I did to start was, obviously I did hire a coach because I hired Ed, and then after three months of working with Ed, I tripled my sales and lost my thirst 30 pounds. I'm like, ‘Oh my gosh, I got to be a coach. This is amazing’. So that's how I started. But you know, to start something like that is, I think it's really to identify what you want. Most people can't even identify a target of what they want because their unconscious mind already makes an impossible, you know, an example of this. And when they go to identify what they want, looking and observing what's in their way, you know? So, if I were to have said right when I began my Deserve level wasn't even high enough to be able to say I want to lose 85 pounds, that would have been like insane to me. I mean, my first instinct and my first conversation with my coach was, you know what, if I could just get my blood pressure down and I could feel good and I could lose 20 pounds, that would be good enough for me. You know? So, it's almost like to be able to identify your good enough's, where are you settling? Where am I settling in my life because I'm too afraid to even identify what I actually want.Beth:So, what is an exercise to help someone to identify what they actually want?Kristen:Well, one of the things I do on an introductory call, you know, or what I like to call a Deserve level strategy session is I have people create this, which is a magic wand and I want that…I was holding up my index fingers, I forgot, people won't be able to see what I'm doing on podcasts, but it's ...Beth:Here's...I'm going to throw this out there is, I have an actual wand, just so you know,Kristen:I do too!Beth:Oh my gosh. See, I knew we were like sisters from another Mister I bought a wand and I was like; I will wave that wand around. I used to do it when my kids were toddlers. I'd be like, okay, you are going to be exceptional humans today, that cooperate and play and get along, wave, wave, wave. And they used to think I was crazy but it kind of worked. Now I wave it on myself. So, okay, so you've got your magic wand.Kristen:So, your magic wand. What your magic wand does is, it helps you get rid of that inner critic. You know, the one that's going to be saying, because I'll never forget my coach saying to me, well, you know, you only want to lose 20 pounds, but that's it. You don't ever want to be on a beach. You don't ever want to, you know, you don't ever want to wear a, I don't know, a bikini or this or that. And I'm like, and I remember saying this as plain as day, I'm like, Oh, well sure I'd really want that, but that's fricking impossible. I'm a mom of triplets. Are you kidding me? I'm never going to have a body like that. This body has been stretched out to 300 plus pounds. You know, there is no way that that would ever happen. Just hear all those decisions. Those are all unconscious. So, even just that as the first step. So, when you get your magic wand out, you get to take that and just kind of silence that inner critic and that's what the magic wand does. And then be able to say, well, this is what I'd actually really want. And if somebody, I don't care what that thing is by the way, that you want because if you look out into the world, if somebody else has it, the only thing that's between you and somebody else is your decisions on what's possible for you.Beth:Oh my gosh! You guys write that down. Like that is huge. Go back click, you know, 15 seconds back, play it in half time, I listened to my podcasts at two times the speed because I need to get all the information. That is huge. And I have personally, on my own personal journey of, I don't know why this time, I just said, well it's available to me. Suddenly after I started the business at 47, it's available to me. And I think back to when I was at my fittest. It wasn't a, well I can't, it was of course I can. And so at those moments I didn't have the doubts, but then, you know, when I turned 50 I found myself saying, Oh well I'm 50 now, so my weight, my goal weights can be 20 pounds more or I don't want to live my life.I had all of the excuses or the interference, it's kind of like if you're playing catch and then you've got like a six-foot ten-inch-tall basketball player interfering with that ball and that flow. That's how my mind works is I always envision him, he's really tall and he keeps grabbing my damn balls. Like I'm trying to throw them, and he keeps interfering and knocking them out of my hands. I will visually, I don't even know if this is Deserve level coaching, but this is like, I call it my Beth coaching method, is I literally will stand up and I will punch him and I will say get the F out of my way. I am going forward and I have to then put on some Beyonce and dance it out. Like that's kind of.Kristen:Yes.Beth:So, my block, you know, is I'm working on a project now for creating a program for women and my vision and my dream is to bring women together and give them the resources and the connections.That's how this podcast was born. And I kept stopping with the production of the podcast because I kept thinking, well, there's already another podcast like that, or no one will listen. And that was obviously no. I had to take the interference dude and punch him. It'd be like, get out of my way. Because even if I share this, share Kristen today, that one person out there, hears this message and it's like I'm going to go to your website, I'm going to go to a free group. And one move is made, like one decision you guys, whether it's a humanitarian effort, whether it's just somebody that is in an abusive situation, they need to leave. Or maybe it's your like Kristen or me, that we are feeling powerless and we're like, you know, it sounds like a book; I was made for more, but to be okay with that.So, we gave you a glimpse of what's inside the Deserve level coaching and Kristen, I know that they can find you, connect with you. I want you to give us all of those details. We'll also put them in the show notes. But if today someone is driving to work or they're at the gym and they're listening to this and I know I've listened to podcasts and I've cried thinking that's where I am, and they're not quite ready to make the move to call you, or reach out to you, or to, they want to consume. What can you tell that woman today that's at the gym or she's driving in her car and life feels like it's just fallen apart? Like what's your message for her today? You were there, what do you wish someone had said to you before that? You know you had someone say call my brother and then, and we don't plan these questions and I do it on purpose. So, Kristen's probably like, Whoa, these are harder than I thought. It's not the typical what is Deserve level coaching. But you've got an audience. I want you to think of that one person she's driving, her tears are streaming down her face and she's like, crap, are they talking to me? What is your message for her today?Kristen:My message for her today. How my brand was born, my brand is Courageous Destiny. Okay. So, if you break apart, courage…cou means from the heart and then rage. So, from the heart rage, destiny, that's really what it means. And for that person who's in their car crying and feeling powerless, the way to grab your power back is to do something. So even though it's uncomfortable and it would be terrifying, then I would say challenge yourself to call me anyway because those are things that I actually understand. So, I wouldn't actually go to them and go, Oh, don't call me. It's okay. Do what's easy. I would say do what you're most afraid of first, and that will give you the most power. So, I would say call me.Beth:I love it. Yeah. And do, do what you're most afraid of first. And sometimes those are conversations and sometimes that's like going to the networking event alone or going to Bunco in your neighborhood. Even walking inside of, I'll tell you a quick story. My daughter, a brave move for her was walking inside of cycling class. She had never done it. She was on a health journey and when she got to college, she walked inside of a soul cycle, which was scary because like, I don’t know what's that, there's a movie where she falls off the soul cycle, but, someone message me on Instagram the name of the movie please, but it's a scary place to walk into. There's a lot of like perfection, and do you know how to get on the bike and clip yourself in, and whatever, it was that day that she decided, I'm going to make that brave move and walk through those doors of soul cycle and not worry about if I have the right outfit or if I know how to clip into the bike or if I know how to sign in.These are all things I've said to myself. She walked in and that one decision, but it's the compound effect of meeting a community of really amazing humans, changing the trajectory of what her focus would be in her life, and also feeling empowered by this body of hers that was able to, to move and grow and do all these things. And it was, and I remember she said when we were moving her in to her dorm, I'm going to go to soul cycle and like you are? It's so brave, but it's sometimes just one move, one call, one, one moment of courage that propels that forward. And I hope that when you take that moment of courage today, whatever it is, whether it's calling Kristen or walking into that fitness class or walking into church again, or calling your mom because you feel this disconnect, I hope you're met with love and not resistance.And even if you aren't met with love, that's okay too, because it's your step, right? So that's what I, just today, let's all do something courageous that feels uncomfortable, that we know we should be doing. And it might even be like sending a sexy text to your husband, and don't think, Oh, he's going to think this is weird. Did you do it when you were dating? Do you want to have a date night? Do you want to take your son bowling? Or you know, like all these things that come to my mind or make a brave call in your sales. So, do something courageous, because I love that you're courageous. Destiny is that push, right? So, tell us, yeah, that push, push, jump. Okay. If someone could take a look inside of your planner, are you digital or paper?Kristen:Digital.Beth:Okay. If someone could take a look inside of your planner, what is one thing that you do every single day that they would see that you do, and that is just a non-negotiable for you?Kristen:They would see that I have 15 minutes a day that I raised my Deserve level and I journal.Beth:Oh, non-negotiable. I love it. All right. I love to peek inside people's journals and their days and their daily plan. And Kristen, if someone wants to consume more of this and you, and learn more, where do they find you? Connect with you. Give us the goods.Perfect. So, I do moderate a group on Facebook called the Deserve Level Movement. So that would be an excellent place for somebody to join. And I'm always posting in there and posting Facebook lives. We have other Deserve level coaches and training that are posting in there. Clients of mine, people who know the work or just want to make a difference in the world are posting in there. So, find me there. And then also, if on Facebook, I'm also doing the lives, friend me, you know, reach out to me, you know, just reach out to me. I will have a website coming up, actually next week. It's being created, CourageousDestiny.com, and that is where you will find other videos and eventually have subscriptions and things like that. All to support people living their courageous destiny.Beth:I love it, and we'll put all those links in the show notes below. And are you also on Instagram?Kristen:I am not on Instagram. That's actually something that's on my to-do.Beth:Well, we'll do that together because, and I'll share it out, because our listeners love to screenshot the episodes. So, screenshot the episode, tag me, and then I will make sure that we get that over to Facebook because you can also put it in your Facebook stories that you've been on this podcast. And I'm going to encourage you. So, I'll put in the show notes below that, how you can connect with Kristen, how you can get a part of her free community when this airs, the website will be live. So, we'll also add that website, and I just want to say thank you. I have notes. I have learned so much today from your wisdom and from you sharing your experience, and I just can't wait to make more connections and do the work along with our community.Kristen:Beautiful, beautiful. It's really been an honor to come onto this show today and I do feel like we're like soul sisters or something, Beth, it's awesome.Beth:I know. I'm actually thinking that, hilarious. I'm going to do this today. If you leave us a five-star review over on iTunes and you'll let me know. I love to see it on Instagram or Facebook. I'm going to mail one person that's listening a wand. My favorite magic wand. Because I have extras. You get a magic wand today. I keep extras. I actually, yeah, I have some swag. I think that maybe a wand is going to have to be in my camp swag store. I have a camp store. These are all ideas that come to me that I wake up in the morning and I keep a journal next to my bed, because anytime I have an idea or something, you know, floats into my brain, I'd write it down and my husband will be like, you write in your sleep? I'm like, yeah, that's how ideas are born. That right brain side.Kristen:That’s how it gets created. If you don’t write it down, It's not real.Beth:I have like an overabundance of right-brain. Alright you guys, thanks so much for being with us today. As always, I appreciate all of you and I want you to have that moment of courage. Share it out on Facebook. Let us know what it is so we can celebrate with you and we will catch you on the next episode.Thanks so much for hanging out with me today on ‘You're Not the Boss of Me’. I'm hoping that you've found one thing that you will do today that will allow you to move forward to that big audacious goal. And I have a favor to ask of you, and that is leaving me a five-star review over in iTunes every single week. I read your reviews. I love hearing what you have to say, and it allows me to bring you more, to get more people to interview that are doing the thing, breaking the glass ceilings, creating what they crave, and helping you with your game plan. So, leave me a five-star review, and when you do, I enter you to win the, ‘You're Not the Boss of Me’ swag. So, make sure you leave it and we'll reach out to you if you're the winner. Thanks so much for hanging with me today and we'll chat with you soon. 

Today I am super excited to share a solo episode with you. You are going to walk away with one thing that you can do today, that I promise you is going to help you to not only profit in your business, but profit in your marriages, your parenting, and your friendships. I will be sharing a few insights that I have learned in business and my personal life, as well as a powerful message from the book ‘The Compound Effect’ by Darren Hardy. Life principles and skills that when you apply over time, you will live a better life, be a better parent, a better business owner, a better human, and be given the ability to make an impact in the world around you.Keynotes discussed:These are the life principles and skills that when you apply over time, you live a better life, a better parent, a better business owner, a better human, and we make an impact. (04:35)Try it for three days, seven days, eight days. But wouldn't it be cool to look back and say, I did that every single day. I don't even care what it is. Just one consistent action. (09:53)So, I have to grow me and I'm working with someone that makes $250,000 a month so that I can learn the systems, routines, the rituals of that successful person. (15:50)I just do it in a way that feels aligned with who I am because I truly believe that I can help. (19:55)When you start to make these small changes, they compound, they snowball, they become so big, and then you become contagious. (22:17)Learn More About The Content Discussed...No Boss Talk:https://nobosstalk.comDarren Hardy’s Book: https://darrenhardy.com/the-compound-effectEpisode With Glenn Lundy: https://www.bethholdengraves.com/rise-and-grindThe Camp Elevate Facebook Group:hereBeth’s Instagram:@bethholdengravesBeth’s website:https://www.bethholdengraves.comProfit HER Way Course:https://www.bethholdengraves.com/profitherwayBe sure to leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and share it with a friend that would get some value!Beth's website: https://www.bethholdengraves.comCamp Elevate: https://www.bethholdengraves.com/camp-elevateEpisode Transcript...Beth:Welcome to 'You're Not the Boss of Me'. If you are determined to break glass ceilings and build it your way, this show is for you. I'm your host Beth Graves and I am obsessed with helping you to not just dream it, but make the plan, connect the dots and create what you crave. Are you ready? Let's get started.Hey, Hey friends! Welcome back! Super excited for a solo episode today. You are listening to 'You're Not the Boss of Me'. My name is Beth Graves and I am so grateful and thankful for all of your shout outs on my Instagram stories. DM me, I love it. And before we get started with today's episode, what you are going to walk away with, is one thing that you can do today, that I promise you is going to help you to not only profit in your business but profit in your marriages, and your parenting, or in your friendships. So stay with me because it's a short episode, but I've got the goods I'm bringing to you today. I first want to read one of our five star reviews. If I read your review, I will send you a Boss hat. I don't always know who it is because of the way the name shows up, so if anybody knows this review today, it's Pepsi, B Broyle, Pepsi, B Broyle.He left this review. I love when a guy leaves a review because you're going to love what he has to say, like this dude is cool. So whoever you are, cool dude, let me know. DM me, send me an email, however you can reach out so I can get you your Boss hat. He says, even guys will love this. "Being a guy, I wasn't sure if Beth's podcast was for me. Episode one set the stage with empowering women to achieve their goals. With three young daughters and a talented wife", I love this guy already. "I'm always in full agreement with the encouragement, however, I wasn't sure if she was going to be able to talk to my heart's needs in the entrepreneurial world. Boy, I was wrong. Episode two, blew me away with how she seemed to be speaking right to me. Now I'm excited to hear how to balance life with family, while creating all that I crave".My family is my why, and I'm eager to make sure they always come first before the next rank, our trip earned. I know Beth understands that priority and is ready to give advice from her vast experience. I'm all in Beth, I can't wait to listen to the rest of what you feel led to share". I have a feeling that this might be my friend Cliff Roy. Let me know Cliff, if it is you, because I know you have three young daughters and I know you have a powerful wife. So if it's you, I've got a Boss hat for you, or if it's someone else, let me know over on the DM. These reviews and downloads and screenshots of stories, they make all the difference in the world for our message. Getting out there with 'You're Not the Boss of Me', and empowering one another to go out and just do that one thing.All right, so here we go. Today's episode. I didn't want to say the C word because I thought, oh, they're just going to be like, nope, not this podcast. Because I'm not preaching consistency. But yes I am. And I want to start with a little story about consistency and the compound effect over time. And if you have not added The Compound Effect by Darren Hardy to your audible lists, or to your nightstand, this is a book that I read each and every year, and it's also a book. I'll put a link in the show notes below. It's also a book that I love to listen to in the car while my 15 year old son Donny is driving with me, because these are the life principles and skills that when you apply over time, you live a better life, a better parent, a better business owner, a better human, and we make an impact.So obviously we know what compounding interest is, right? So what Darren Hardy talks about is that the little decisions and choices that we make consistently can be huge for the long term. Okay, so we talk about quick fixes and we talk about how to hack formulas. We talk about quick weight loss and all of those things, and we know there's no magic bullet. We know there's no magic pill, there's no secret, there's just that long term consistency that wins, and that is truly how you are going to grow your business. And make sure that you don't drop those glass balls. And I want to give you an example of your teeth, okay? You brush your teeth every day, twice a day, two minutes. You go to the dentist every six months. If you only did the one thing of going to the dentist every six months, your teeth are going to fall out of your head.The same thing with going to the gym, okay? I got up this morning guys. I'm like first day of the new year because my birthday was yesterday. I love my birthday. I love birthdays. I love hearing from people. I love getting flowers. I love getting gifts. I'm not one of those people that's like, Oh, I don't like the attention. I love my birthday. I was in such a high vibrational state yesterday. I literally manifested six messages from people that I'd been thinking, I want to hear from a person. Just like this, it was so cool. So cool when you get yourself into that. And that's going to be an episode; into that high vibrational state. However, it's the consistency over time that allows us to be at that higher level, and when we are there, when we are at that level of nobody can get in the way of my glittery, sparkly, happy existence today.It's the work that we've done every day. So when I got up at 4:45, I went to the gym after showering. Did I look in the mirror and be like, wow, that gym trip certainly changed your life. You are showing results. No, it's gotta be, we know this. This is like baby stuff. We all know it. We've known it since we were 13, it's every single day what we do. But what happens is life gets busy, life gets challenging. Our brain gets in the way and we start telling ourselves these stupid stories and they stop us from growing in our business and in our life. Okay, so I want to talk to you about something that happened in my courting days with Don. You hear about love at first sight. You have this big moment. We were sitting at dinner, and he was literally the first guy I dated.I had a failed first marriage. A lot of people don't know that, and I say that because, gosh, I learned a lot from the age of 23 to 28, I was kind of a spoiled rotten self obsessed person. I think we both were, there were no kids, so it's an easy split to the marriage. But I say that because we all have failures and I used to hide it. I used to be like, Oh, I don't want people to know that, but I'm proud of that because I'm proud of having that experience. That allowed me to go into a marriage with a different mindset with a new person. That's the compound effect, because first of all, just like business, I made the decision that I was going to do the work every single day to make sure that we stayed in that, with that love state, if that makes sense.So while you're dating someone, it's the little things that make you say, this is my person. And one of the things that he used to do, and I need to remind him of this, I talked about this on our morning call. We have a morning motivation call every morning for our team. And I talked about one of the things that I loved, was every time I would come home, I was teaching at the time, and I would come into the house, we would spend some extended periods of time together and I would open the fridge. And this is, you know, before I stopped with this nasty habit of drinking soda every day, there would be a can of diet Coke with a York peppermint Patty right there on top of it. Just a little like, here you go. I was thinking about you while I was out today, and that made me smile every day.Those little gestures. So you look at that in your business and you think about the Darren Hardy quote, which is "The accomplishment of any goal is the progressive accumulation or compound effect of small steps taken consistently over time". We know this to be true, yet we don't do it in certain areas of life. So I encourage you today to look at one tiny little thing that you could do every single day, from now until the end of 2020, like one thing for each area of your life. I want you to journal about it. I mean try it for three days, seven days, eight days. But wouldn't it be cool to look back and say? I did that every single day. I don't even care what it is. Just one consistent action. What about your health? What's one thing that you could do every single day that would move your health forward?Not one big, and I'm so guilty of this, like I'm all in. I'm all in, I'm running the marathon, I'm doing it, I'm doing it. And, and then fizzle. But what if I had committed every single day to just walk, run, walk, run, walk, run for 20 minutes? And I did that for 20 years. That consistency over time is what adds to this magical life. The consistency. So what are we going to do for our foundation, for our personal development for that time? And I talk about it all the time. It's the sacred rituals, that water the garden we can't grow without. For me and for everyone, I believe it's meditation. Devotion. It's setting the intention, the prayers, the devotions, the meditation, every day. Can you consistently commit to 15 minutes a day of that? Or would it be journaling? What about seven straight days of gratitude?What about if you did personal development, a podcast, 15 minutes, something every single day? But if you say, I'm going to do a podcast, I'm going to do gratitude, and do my meditation. I'm doing my super attractor journal with Gabby Bernstein. Oh, how I love my Gabby Bernstein supertracker journal. Just a side note. I'm obsessed. Go get the audible book, you guys. You know I love to get you, like all into the things I'm into, so we can chat about it together. What if you made one commitment that could shift your entire life? That morning routine will shift your entire life? You heard about it on the episode with Glenn Lundy. If you don't remember that episode, just go back. Actually I'll even put that down in the show notes below. So one decision, one decision for your health. Perhaps it's 15 minutes of walking every day. Perhaps it's 10 pushups.Perhaps it's eating in one day more a week. There's this part in, I kind of embellish this part of the compound effect . Darren Hardy talks about this one dude comes home from work every day. His wife is, maybe she's working a online business and she been working all day and the kids are young and it's a little chaotic and frazzled and he comes in, he grabs a bag of Doritos from the closet. I'm embellishing a bit. I'm so sorry Darren Hardy. I'm kind of creating from a story you told in that book. But I have a very active imagination. And he grabs the bag of Doritos, that have 125 calories, and he grabs the Pepsi and he sits down on the couch and his wife is like looking at him, like you jerk. And the dogs haven't been walked and so they're running around and everything seems to be a cluster.And then there's the guy that comes in, Joe. And Joe decides every day he's going to come in and kiss his wife, high five the kids and say, let's go on a walk. He doesn't grab the Doritos or the Pepsi, because the dude that's on the couch, we're going to call him Sam, he's just consumed like 400 icky, gross caloric garbage for his body. His wife is mad. There's chaos in the house. The dogs are running around, they're knocking things over and he's watching horrible TV that's filling his brain with icky things. On a side note. I do love a good binge of some good Netflix. Like I'm not anti that. I'm going to tell you that there are some, I'm going to share with you guys in the next episode, one of my favorite trashy HBO shows. It's not that trashy, but it's like good stuff, that when you want to have a binge, I want to share that with you.So anyway, we've got the dude on the couch and things over the next three years go downhill. His wife gets annoyed, the kids are fighting, the house is getting torn apart and he's gaining weight and he's getting unhealthy because with stress, with the extra 500 calories a day of the soda and the chips, and his brain is being filled with icky stuff. So the other scenario is the walk ,just 15 minutes a day, the time together, maybe a nice moment of gratitude. The kids are out walking and riding their bikes. The dogs are being walked, and over time, guess what grows? Which family has a better environment? Which businesses are growing? Or the businesses growing in the house where there's chaos and ickiness and people screaming and yelling and the TV too loud? Or in the house where the rituals and routines are set up for productivity, for good energy.Because when you sit down the next day to do the work and you're like, ah, that feels good. It feels good. So the compound effect, the consistency. So what if you made one healthy habit? What if you decided right now before the New Year starts? Before this, cause if you're listening to this episode live, it's launching in November. What if over Thanksgiving you decided I'm going to stick to this one healthy idea every single day? Maybe it's just drinking water. Maybe it's drinking an extra glass of water. Maybe it's a 15 minute walk. Maybe it's 10 pushups, 10 squats. Maybe it's just doing 10 jumping jacks. But it's moving. I encourage you to do the walk thing, that's really helped to change our lives. Okay, so what about in your foundation? What if every day you did something, like we said, the meditation, some personal development, the journaling, the gratitude. What if you committed to that one thing? And every day that was a piece of what you decided to do, and the consistency of those habits over time built you, built you, built you, into growing, because I can tell you that is what has changed my life because it grew.As I listened to a podcast, I was able to find my personal mentor and coach. I'm always working on myself, and yes, on a side note, I always invest in working with a coach, always have a coach because I am an athlete. I am an Olympian at making money and helping you. So I have to grow me, and I'm working with someone that makes $250,000 a month so that I can learn the systems, routines, the rituals of that successful person. Okay, so we're going to talk about that at the end of the episode, how you can get into a high level coaching program to grow as well, if that's your choice. So let's talk about that one piece that has to happen in your business every single day, or that should happen in your business every single day. And that is showing up. Show the heck up for your business, and that is not a Facebook scroll, and that is not hop on a team Zoom and cheer for your friends.Showing up in your business is showing up with what makes money. What makes money are conversations. So whether you sell essential oils, insurance policies, houses, vitamins, face cream, I mean there are a million things that people sell out there. How many conversations are you having every day that feel genuine and authentic, that are asking somebody or sharing with somebody a story or seeing if they're open? And I know I talk about not being a Spamala Pamela, not doing things that feel icky, but you could talk yourself into saying every conversation feels icky. Hello my friend. You have chosen sales to be the way that you make money. Whether you sell coaching or whether you sell vitamins or whether you are a therapist, you've got to let people know of your service or your product. And if you believe that you can help someone, you are going to have the conversation, right?Yes, yes, yes, yes we are. So I'm going to ask you, I'm going to ask you this question. Do you show up consistently with content for your fans, for your friends, for the people that you're connecting with, that shows them who you are and what you do? Or are you like, Hey, this week I'm going to share this, and this week I'm going to share this, and the next weekend I'm going to talk about my neighbor being annoying. And that's cool if you're just on social media to socialize, but maybe you're on social media to show people about building businesses online, and streams of income ,and how all of these things happen. And you educate and you talk about it and you share stories of success. And then suddenly you're like, oh, and I'm opening a bakery in New Hampshire. And then you're not talking about the online business anymore. But you're talking about the bakery, you're going to attract people because you're in Facebook groups that love baking. Your online people, the people that build businesses online, or maybe it was like sustainable income online or how to build a following with your online business or whatever that is, they no longer find your content useful.So now you've shifted to the bakery, which is fine, if that's your thing. But remember that you have, you want to make sure that you have vision around what you do so you can consistently show up. So the right people are getting information from you so that they're actually coming your way. And we talk a lot about that in my Facebook group. We talk a lot about that in my program, Profit, Her Way, about how you create your entire mission and vision around your product or your service. So it all fits together and makes sense. And actually people start to reach out to you and ask you more often. But even to this day you would think, Oh, she's done this and this and this and blah, blah blah. I still ask questions and have conversations with people to sell what I have.I just do it in a way that feels aligned with who I am because I truly believe that I can help. So what if you had one conversation a day no matter what? There's some companies that want to give you a free account so you get a little free website for information, and that puts you on the list, right? That puts you on the VIP list. What if you got one email address a day for your email marketing list or for your free account list? Or however that works in your business. And you added 365 people a year that actually wanted to have information from you. And what if every day you had one conversation saying, Hey, I think I can help you with this. Well I know I can. And how would that feel? And with every day, you not only had that conversation, but you had been doing visualization and affirmations and filling your brain with positivity . And what I want to call optimism, from being and hearing the voices of people that are winning instead of filling your brain with negativity and violence and hate.What if you made your Facebook feed a place where everything that you saw made you feel good and empowered and you never felt like, eh, I don't want to see that person stuff. What if you did that small compound effect? So I'm going to encourage you as we finish this episode to take out your journal. You know, I love that journal. You know, I do. And to really think about one area, I don't care if it's just a teeny, tiny little thing. One area, think about even finances. Someone said that intermittent fasting saved them over $365. Like they were spending a dollar on their egg McMuffin or something every day, $365 a year. Well, most people spend more money on their Starbucks. So thinking about how the compound effect works and even how it works with kindness, that one nice message sent today. What area of your life?Your health, your family, your faith, your foundation. You know how you grow yourself and your business. I promise you this. When you start to make these small changes, they compound, they snowball, they become so big, and then you become contagious. What about if you shared every single day on your social media that one thing that you learned from Think and Grow Rich? What if you decided, I'm going to read the Bible every day? I'm going to read Gabrielle Bernstein every day or I'm going to read? I'm looking at my books that are sitting right here. I'm going to read, Think and Grow Rich ,two pages a day. And then I'm going to share that out on social media and talk about what Napoleon Hill says. The ripple effect of what happens is huge and then all of a sudden the pieces fall together. But there are those people and they're good people.But I am here to tell you how to make money. I love making money and I love living a life that feels so aligned with who I am. So we've got to really push that compound effect into our business. And if people see you building some of the time, posting some of the time, being involved some of the time, but not all of the time, they're gonna think, eh, it's just like kind of a side gig. I want you to show up all of the time and it starts with changing one habit a day. So what habit will that be? I want you to send it to me over on a DM on Instagram. Please screenshot this, post it up on your stories on Facebook, on Instagram, and send to me in the DMS. The one habit, that one thing you're committing to, because sometimes when you say it, or if you're over in camp elevate, we're going to post this over.That's our free Facebook group where we hang out the campelevategroup.com. Join us over on Facebook. If you can't find it, send me a DM. Either Nikki or I will answer you in the DM on how you get into that group, but I want you to think about that one habit and then if you want to go a step further, find an accountability partner that you just are like, I'm doing this every day and we're checking in with each other. Got it. All right. I hope that this has been a helpful episode for you. I love chatting with you. I love hearing from you. So like I said, make sure that you do this over on Instagram, over on Facebook, wherever you like to hang out. And I want to end this episode by sharing with you what I talked about earlier. And I talked earlier about how I have always, well not always, it was two years into the business that I made the decision that if I was to grow and learn and become and evolve, I was going to need to make a deposit, an investment into me.And so I've worked with multiple coaches on, well the things that I needed at that time. And so I am currently launching a program called Profit Her Way, and it is a program that actually walks you through each of the areas of how you grow your business in a genuine, authentic way. I call it my sales system, because I want you to have the foundation, connecting the dots in a business that aligns with your magnetic marketing message with you. We work on all kinds of things. We work on productivity, we work on the money mindset, but most of all we create that map, that vision map, and then we get into action together, and we provide accountability, and we actually work together. I do a lot of one-on-one zooms and things in this program. We do an in-person event and it may not be for you, it may not be for you yet.It is for someone that's looking to go from just a part time level with their business and move it to the six and seven figure mark. It's called Profit Her Way. It is application only, because the group stays small. bethholdengraves.com/profitherway. Go on over there. See what it's all about. Fill out the application, book a call with me. I would love to see if it's a fit for all of us, because I am determined to help you to have your own plan, your map, your profit plan and if that's not for you right now, we are doing it here on the podcast. We're doing it. I offer it for free over in the camp elevate group. And I just want to thank you so much., this community is growing each and every week beyond my wildest dreams. This has been one the very best decisions that I've made because I love connection. I love community and the 'You're Not the Boss of Me' podcast community is growing. And I'm meeting so many new people, and I just love it! And I love hearing your stories, so keep them coming. As always, remember you have the power to say 'You're Not the Boss of Me' in every area of your life. And it all starts with those daily decisions, those daily deposits of those consistent habits that you work on over time. I'll talk to you guys all next week. Thanks so much for tuning in with me today.Thanks so much for hanging out with me today on 'You're Not the Boss of Me' . I'm hoping that you've found one thing that you will do today that will allow you to move forward to that big, audacious goal. And I have a favor to ask of you, and that is leaving me a five star review over in iTunes every single week. I read your reviews. I love hearing what you have to say, and it allows me to bring you more, to get more people to interview that are doing the thing, breaking the glass ceilings, creating what they crave, and helping you with your game plan. So leave me a five star review, and when you do, I will enter you to win the 'You're Not the Boss of Me' swag. So make sure you leave it and we'll reach out to you if you're the winner. Thanks so much for hanging with me today and we'll chat with you soon.

We've got Dr Ralph Esposito (or Dr Espo as we like to call him) back on the pod today. We're stoked to have this legend on the show with us again, especially as we're celebrating the bro's this month for Brovember. Today Dr Espo shares his insights on men's health, particularly in areas of prostate care, men's hormones and men's mental health. With his extensive experience as a naturopath, licensed acupuncturist and functional medicine practitioner, Dr Espo is an absolute weapon of knowledge in his field of expertise, so strap yourself in and enjoy the ride.  Mason and Dr Espo bro down on: The link between cortisol and prostate health. High insulin as a driving factor of dis-ease. The risk factors involved in prostrate cancer. Keeping up to date with your GP for regular prostrate exams.  The male hormonal cascades. Testosterone and oestrogen. How the liver supports hormonal balance. The diet and lifestyle interventions a man can embody to prevent testosterone aromatisation. The importance of men's mental health and the shame that often surrounds it. Male "man-o-pause, aka andropause.   Who is Dr Espo? Dr. Esposito is a naturopathic physician, licensed acupuncturist and functional medicine practitioner specializing in Hormones, Integrative Urology and Men's Health. His precise and personalized style embodies a progressive approach to medicine. He has been published and is a peer reviewer in well-respected medical journals. Furthermore, Dr. Esposito has authored several medical textbook chapters and has designed education modules for health professionals specifically on urological conditions, fertility, male and female hormone dysfunction, Low Testosterone, exercise, fitness, men’s health and sexual dysfunction. He has trained at NYU Integrative and Functional Urology Center. Dr. Esposito also holds a position as adjunct professor at New York University where he lectures on integrative medicine.   Resources: Dr Espo Instagram  SuperFeast Deer Antler  SuperFeast Ashwagandha   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Mason:   Dr. Espo, welcome back, man. Dr. Espo:    Wow, thanks so... I can't believe I'm back for almost, what is it, a third time? Mason:    Yeah.... I've never said this before, but you're a friend of the show. Dr. Espo:   Yes. [crosstalk 00:00:19]... I'm the best friend. Mason:   Was it three years ago when we first had our chat over on my old podcast? Yeah, a second time having you here, and we're recording a little bit before, but now we're in Brovember. We're celebrating men's health, I was going to talk to you anyway, but one of the reasons I really wanted to have you on again is because in the last year for Movember... I don't know if everyone knows Movember. I think it's pretty synonymous with November now, you shave off, you grow Mo, and it's all about raising awareness and money for prostate health essentially. Is that right? Dr. Espo:   Yeah, for cancers that impact men. So testicular cancer, prostate cancer, and also male mental health. Mason:   Yeah. Nice. But I'm really awesome, and I learned a lot from you, so if you're not on the Instagram we're doing a lot of sharing of Ralph's posts especially through that last year, November and all the way up until currently. So get over there and look at those because there's heaps of juicy stuff, but we're going to be going into it today as well. And with Brovember, of course, we are going to be focusing, yes, and including those particular cancers that are affecting men, especially going to be looking at prostate health, but we're blowing it out into men's health. Mason:   We're going to be of course talking about mental health as well, but blowing out into like all areas of health that are affecting men. So bro, let's start diving in. Now, of course, prostate health is something that is... I feel we just had a little conversation before about how you're still working in that clinic that you mentioned in the last podcast, which is awesome. And we were saying how, it's a little bit easier for you to get the patient's history, but often it's so incomplete and just how it's one of those things where when you're a bit younger you just don't value your medical history and how it's like, you don't value getting your taxes and finances in order until stuff starts hitting the fan. You go, "Oh shit, yeah, I really got to get on top of this." Mason:   I mean, it's like that with prostate health is one of those things. All we need to do is just get a little bit of insight now, especially if you're a bit older, but when you're young, ideally start really understanding your physiology in your anatomy. So let's dive into prostate health. Do you want to just go start with just jamming with us about what it is and its function? Dr. Espo:   Yeah. So the prostate is a gland that sits beneath the bladder. And if you're a man over the age of 40 or 45, sometimes 50, your doctor has probably stuck his finger in your rectum and did a prostate exam. And it's probably one of the most exciting things that men love to look forward to once they reach 50. But no, and in all honesty, it's an important test to get done because the prostate has... its primary function is for sexual function. It creates a fluid that allows your semen and your sperm to survive to inseminate or to impregnate an egg. Dr. Espo:   Now, it's there your whole life, but as you get older, your prostate can start to enlarge and it also is susceptible to cancer. Now, the great thing about prostate cancer is that most men will die with prostate cancer than from prostate cancer. And the great thing is that it's also typically a very slow growing type of cancer. So what I usually tell men is by the time you're 65, 70 years old, you probably will have some type of prostate cancer cells in your body. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to kill you and it doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be a malignant. Dr. Espo:    But I want to make sure that I'm protecting my body and preventing any type of cancer cells, especially prostate cancer, but any cancer from growing, because it seems to be one of the most prominent cancers in men. So it's a really important cancer to get on top of. And also it's easily to, well I don't want to call it easy, but it's one of the cancers that can be treated rather well compared to other types of cancers like pancreatic. Mason:   And especially, just with lifestyle you mean? Dr. Espo:   Yeah. So for prostate cancer, prostate cancer is largely a cancer of lifestyle. So there are genetic causes that contribute to it. So there is the BRCA gene, which is often associated with breast cancer, but in fact there are individuals who do have a BRCA mutation that can increase their risk of prostate cancer. So whenever I asked a man, speaking of family history, I say, "Hey, what's your family history of prostate cancer?" He might say, "Oh, I had an uncle had prostate cancer. And then I say, "Well what was your family history of breast cancer or ovarian cancer?" Dr. Espo:   And they tell me, "Oh yeah, my mom had breast cancer or my sister had breast cancer." I'm like, okay, that tells me that it's a possibility, although it's not entirely likely not for certain that if your sister had breast cancer, she had a BRCA gene, but if she had a BRCA gene, it's possible that you too, you do as well. And that makes me super vigilant in making sure that your prostate cancer or your potential for prostate cancer is very low to minimum. Dr. Espo:   So we know there's a lot of lifestyle things that increase the risk of prostate cancer. And we know that a plant-based diet, which is really hard to define, but we know that those who eat more leafy greens, berries, fruits like pomegranates, tomatoes, those are the foods that you want to have to protect your prostate and staying away from charred meats. And then you come into the conversation of sleep and then exercise, right? So all of these things together will reduce your risk. And there's a bunch of men who may have the BRCA but don't necessarily get prostate cancer. And I think that's where the lifestyle come into play. Mason:   All right. So then with prostate cancer, you mentioned family. I just wanted to just throw in that, I remember there was a post too about brothers and if your brother has prostate cancer, the percentage going up. And so I obviously in the same family of that, but that was a pretty, that percentage was quite high. It's just worth knowing, I guess. Then let's stay in the preventative world, I guess like everything we've talked about, especially on that last podcast, we've talked a lot about herbs for men's health. Obviously you're not going to be able to focus on any area, whether it's testosterone optimization, sleep, the inclusion of certain herb's and adaptogens like Ashwagandha and Mucuna without largely affecting the prostate gland, I imagine. Is that just, obviously because you've created an environment where harmony can somewhat ensue or is prostate effected by high levels of stress as well or is there no real link there? Dr. Espo:   No. No, no. okay. So a really good follow up question to this is what do you mean by stress? Mason:   Yeah, well that's really great. Are we talking like what in terms of clinical markers, are we talking about hormonal markers with stress, are we talking about like a stealth stress that's in the mind? And that's really, really good distinction there. And I'd love for you to just take it in any way you feel is relevant. Dr. Espo:   Yeah. So when it comes to stressors and prostate cancer, it's almost an arguable to say stress in an umbrella form is not going to be harmful. So in other words, stress is harmful for prostate cancer. And the reason why and most of the time what we see is that individuals who are highly stressed, which is often measured by cortisol because it's one of the major stress hormones. The other ones are the catecholomines like epinephrine, norepinephrine, adrenaline, noradrenaline those are basically our stress hormones. And then you have stress markers like interleukin-1, interleukin-1V, interleukin-6, et cetera, TNF, right? So all of these are markers, they fall within the umbrella of stress. And then they cause inflammation, right? Dr. Espo:   So chronically elevated levels of cortisol can impair your immune system. And there's one immune cell that we know that is super helpful to protect against prostate cancer and those are NK cells, also known natural killer cells. And you're going to love this because mushrooms significantly improve the production of NK cells. It's one of the ingredients in there called AHC C, which is found mostly in mushrooms that increases the synthesis of and NK cells, which are targeted towards cancers and one of the cancers that has most effect on his prostate cancer. So- Mason:   So good. Dr. Espo:   Yeah, so if you wanted to develop an environment for prostate cancer to grow, to thrive, suppress the immune system, throw a bunch of inflammatory markers at it, and then feed it a diet full of sugar and you created a soup that prostate cancer will certainly love. I'm not sure exactly, it's actually hyperinsulinemia. Very, very high insulin levels for long periods of time, which will cause increase in IGF levels will cause prostate cancer cells to grow. It's not just the red meat, charred red meat, it's not just the stress. What I think is the catalyst is the insulin triggered by increased blood sugar, but also insulin can be triggered by increased cortisol levels. Mason:   Can we just jump down the IGF a little bit? I mean, that insulin growth factor is something I've looked into. Especially when I got ask questions because it's obviously in existence in deer antler. A little bit different for us because we're using a deer antler velvet that isn't isolated yet here are a lot of there are a lot of isolated supplements out there with IGF in there. And I saw that it was pretty non conclusive with deer antler at least. But I was like, I couldn't say in terms of whether it was going to be an aggravator in those instances where... Even if there's a susceptibility and women asking as well in terms of having that same gene that makes them prone to breast cancer. I don't know if you've got any take on it? Dr. Espo:   So is the question, does IGF, or exogenous IGF cause or is a major contributing factor to cancers? Mason:   Even if it's just like a suspect? Yeah. Something like... Whether you know that or whether it's something you suspect? Dr. Espo:   Yeah. So I think it's not just the IGF. Right... So a measure of IGF is growth hormone.... sorry. IGF is a measure of growth hormone. So you can measure growth hormone in the blood. It's highly inaccurate because it's pulsatile, which basically means growth hormone releasing hormone that tells your pituitary to release growth hormone. And that happens at various times throughout the day. So if you were to just take a random check of your growth hormone, that doesn't give you much information because it's just what was your growth hormone on November 2nd at 8:24 AM in the morning, right? Mason:   Yeah. Dr. Espo:   But IGF has a longer half-life and last longer. So by looking at IGF, you can look at growth hormone. And by understanding what growth hormone does to certain cancer cells, obviously causes them to grow, but there's a curve on it and it's we're at very low growth hormone levels the risk of Alzheimer's and cancers increase or high as you increase growth hormone, those things decrease. So the risk of cancers and Alzheimer's and chronic diseases decrease as you start giving more growth hormone. It's a super physiologic level. So very high levels of growth hormone, the risk goes up again. Mason:   Got ya. Dr. Espo:   It's like a U-shaped curve. Mason:   Okay. Dr. Espo:    And so when you tell me, does IGF cause cancer, number one, I'll never tell you that something causes cancer, but can it promote? Well, it depends on the environment that you are in. So there's a lot of bodybuilders who just take straight up insulin. I would say that is a higher risk for certain types of cancers. Actually, we know insulin can increase the risk of cancers. So I would say when you have to weigh the risk per verses benefit and really understand what is the relative risk, let's just put it into perspective of having a Snickers bar, it's probably more likely to increase your risk of developing a cancer promoting environment than deer antler or taking an exogenous type of supplement that might increase your own endogenous production. Mason:   Yeah, man. Then that's the getting a like a... I always like to play around in the buffer of having a herb or is this a much an extent even like supplementation and minerals and all that kind of stuff within the whole form, majority of the time it gives you that buffer. But I like that man. It's cool. Thanks for giving me that perspective on that. And so with prostate health and when we get into testing, can you just jam a little bit about the PSA testing and just any myths around that and how we can actually be grounded and levelled and responsible in terms of how we're testing and then managing enlarged prostates or prostate cancer. If we get to that point at which we hopefully obviously don't because we're on the prevention bandwagon. Dr. Espo:   Right. I was just having this conversation with a colleague the other day and a patient, and they're like, "Well, my doctor said I shouldn't test PSA." So okay, so you're 54 years old, your insulin levels at 18, which is high, your fasting insulin is that 18 typically it could be less than like 10 or nine. That's micro units per milliliter, and your doctor's telling me that there's really no point of testing PSA. So what else are you going to do to screen this guy to make sure he doesn't get prostate cancer? I'll just do a rectal exam. Those are highly insensitive. So basically the risk or the chance of you catching a prostate cancer on a rectal exam, if you are not a urologist is close to like 40% or 50% of the time. Mason:   What have you got?... Obviously you've just got specialized training with urology. What are you particularly looking for? Just the feel? Dr. Espo:   Just what you're feeling for. Mason:   Yes. Dr. Espo:   Right. So what's your feeling for is a nodule, you're feeling... So what I usually tell people is like if you make a fist, right, a normal- Mason:   Don't tell me that's how you test? (laughing) Then you're doing it wrong. Dr. Espo:   What kind of medical school did you go to? Okay. So if you are a urologist or a doctor and what's your feeling for is if you make a fist with your left hand, the palm, the left part of your hand, like at the bottom of your thumb, your femur eminence is a normal prostate. If you go on the opposite side of the culture to your pinky side, that's a boggy prostate. That's usually an enlarged prostate. And then you feel your knuckle. That's prostate cancer. So really hard is prostate cancer, normal buoyancy is.. Normal prostate and then really like just soft and mushy is more, more like an enlarged prostate. So that's when you do a DRE, what we call a DRE was a digital rectal exam. Dr. Espo:   You're trying to see, number one, what is the size? Is it large or small? Do I feel any nodules? Is the median sulcus there? Which is like a little indentation, like a Walnut is that there? If that's not there, then that means the process is getting bigger. And then you obviously check for tenderness. So if I press it, does it hurt? Prostate cancer typically doesn't hurt, but prostatitis will. So if you're telling me that your PSA is elevated at seven, but you're telling me a burns on your pee and when you ejaculate, you're having pain, probably a prostatitis probably an infection or a chronic non bacterial prostatitis I'm less inclined to think that that's a prostate cancer also depends on your age. Mason:   How would you, [crosstalk 00:17:56]. Dr. Espo:   So let's say you had. Mason:   Sorry. Dr. Espo:   Had- Mason:   No, no, no, I was just going to say with prostatitis, in terms of treatment do you go about that with just a different, you're just like case by case or do you have a protocol? Dr. Espo:   It depends on the type of bacteria that's found. So you can do a.. Basically you could do a urine test or you can do a prosthetic massage test. So you'll get a urine test, test that then you palpate the prostate. So you basically press the prostate, try to get a sample from that and then see if there's any type of bacteria that are growing there. Mason:   Right. Got you. Dr. Espo:   So then that'll determine what the therapy will be. Now, look, you don't always have to go with antibiotics, but it depends on the duration and how bad it is. Now sometimes you'll find the bacteria with a person who is asymptomatic. And I would say, I don't know if we really need to go ahead and aggressively go after this, but it depends on the individual. My concern with a non-treated prostatitis or a prostate infection, is it becoming a chronic non-bacterial infection. And I see that all the time because you have a lot of urologists are, a lot of men won't go to the doctor. So if you're listening to this podcast, please, if you take nothing else from this, just go to the doctor and get a checkup. Just have your doctor examine you. Dr. Espo:   So men won't go to the doctor, at the end when it's all resolved or they're feel like they're okay two months later, they're in chronic pain and there's no bacteria there because that bacteria has caused so much inflammation to the nerves and the prostate tissue that they can't recover. So as a naturopathic physician, my last option is an antibiotic, but it doesn't necessarily mean I'm completely opposed to it. Right. Because we then have to consider, like for example, if you're a 95-year-old woman who has a BMI of 17, and you have the pneumonia, I'm not giving you, oregano oil, go on antibiotics because your risk of dying is very high. So I take that approach with it. But certainly there are herbs that can be used that are natural antibacterial, antifungal, antiparasitic herbs that can help fight a prostate infection. The issue is that the prostate is such a hard area to reach. Mason:   Yeah. Have you looked at other ways besides orally like have you in terms of suppositories or enemas or anything like that? Dr. Espo:   Yeah. So those antibacterial herbs will not cross the colon or the rectum to get to the prostate. But there is research showing that the probiotics that colonize your colon will also colonize your prostate. Mason:   Like bifidus? Dr. Espo:   It depends on, I'm not sure which strain it was, but I know that when they gave individuals, whatever strains that they were giving them as a probiotic, it changed the flora in their prostate as well. Mason:   Okay. Wow. Dr. Espo:   So they do communicate and those nerves also communicate. So the nerves that impact your prostate also are impacting your rectum and your colon. So the first thing I ask men, well, who have our prostate chronic prostatitis. I asked them, "Well, are you eating dairy and are you constipated?" I look at those two things. I say, well, you're probably, if you're constipated, you're probably causing irritation to those nerves, which will also cause irritation to the prostate. Mason:   Yeah. Right. Okay. So you get that colon connection there. Big time with the prostate. Right. Okay. Well let's- Dr. Espo:   Speaking of the PSA, yes you can... I would check PSA. I checked PSA density, so I check how high is the PSA compared to the prostate? So just put it in comparison. A small prostate should make very little PSA and the large prostate will probably make a little bit more. But if you have a small prostate and your PSA is high, I'm more concerned than if you have a big prostate and your PSA is high. Mason:   Okay. What ages are you recommending going and getting checked? Dr. Espo:    It depends. So you know, you were discussing if you have a brother your risk of prostate cancer goes up. Typically, if a man has a first degree family member with prostate cancer, I'm screening them at about 40. Mason:   Okay. Dr. Espo:   Right. And that is only to get a baseline. Mason:   Yeah. Right. Dr. Espo:   Especially 40 if they're black or African American. All right. Mason:   Yeah. African Americans are really prone to prostate cancer, right? Dr. Espo:   They are more prone to prostate cancer than- Mason:   African, like those African genetics. Dr. Espo:   African or African American or black will typically have a higher risk of prostate cancer. They actually have a higher risk of aggressive prostate cancer. And that's the prostate cancer that you want to kill. Mason:   Is that because I know that folks.. African folks are a little bit more susceptible to kidney deficiencies as well. Dr. Espo:   Kidney again, so... Mason:   Kidney deficiency in general. I mean, and I don't know if that's obviously in proximity might be a little bit of a connection. I don't know? Dr. Espo:   Yeah. I haven't thought about it in that aspect. It's something that I think you should look into. I haven't thought about it that way. Mason:   I mean, I haven't really either. That's kind of like just a little bit of a hobby looking at the elemental deficiency, constitutional stuff that comes out of Taoism and classical Chinese medicine. But I'll look into it. I'll put it on the list Ralph. Mason:   And then when once you get past those inflammatory conditions and you start edging towards the realms of their being prostate cancer, how do you then gauge, when is it time to intervene using whether it's palpitation, PSA levels, age, so on and so forth. When is the surgeries rife? Right? People are getting rushed into prostate surgery. And there's like a lack of appropriateness. It's like none of you ever like practice much martial arts, but there's one thing you'd learn is an appropriate reaction to the stimulus, right? So if it's just a drunk friend, it's just like, cool, we'll just get him down. It's not an appropriate time to be breaking arms or choking out or anything like that. Mason:   And that seems like the word cancer is thrown in someone's face and it's like no matter what type it is, it's like that same reaction having a very intense reaction to just a drunk friend that just needs to be cuffed a little bit. And I know some prostate cancers could definitely be aggressive. I'm obviously curious, I'm not an expert in the area, but what's appropriate action? Is rushing into surgery necessary? Are the levels of surgeries going on necessary. Is everyone getting hysterical about it? Let's dive in. Dr. Espo:   I am so happy you asked that question because I don't if your viewers, obviously your viewers can't see the smile on face right now because I love that question. And you should actually just take a screenshot and just say, this is how Ralph is smiling. Mason:   Oh, don't worry. We've got the video recording as well. So guys, you can jump over on Instagram TV or YouTube and catch the video. Dr. Espo:   Let me make sure my hair's good. Mason:   Yeah. I should've told you that. Dr. Espo:   Okay. So I love this question because there are different types or grades or ratings of prostate cancer. So we usually rate prostate cancer based on something we call a Gleason, right? So a Gleason is a score that a pathologist will take a prostate tissue and say this patient has a Gleason. So the Gleason score is one to five, and you get two scores, so to a some of 10. So the pathologist can look at one set of cells and say this is a Gleason five, like that's really aggressive, poorly differentiated, this is a bad looking cancer. And then they can look at another one and say, well this one's also a Gleason five. This is also really poorly differentiated, really aggressive. You are a Gleason 10. Dr. Espo:   I've seen a dozen of those where it's just like there is no option here. You have to have your prostate removed because this is really, really bad. So now the AUA, the American Urological Association suggest that prostatectomy or prostate surgery should be considered when you have a Gleason six or above... I'm sorry, a Gleason seven or above is when you should start considering that. A Gleason six is borderline. So I'm a little bit of the thought that you should really take in the totality of the presentation. So number one is how quickly has the prostate level been increasing? So if you went from prostate level of one to two to three to four over four years, I'm concerned, that's increasing quite, quite rapidly. Or if you're going to one to two, to four to eight, that's a doubling time. That's extremely risky. So that's something you take into consideration. Dr. Espo:   Then you do something called The 4KScore and a 4KScore takes into consideration four different types of PSA. So when you get a regular PSA scores, you're giving you total PSA, you could also do free PSA and then The 4K add two more PSAs. And those, you have an algorithm, when you take into consideration and you include all of them, you get a score and if the score is above seven, your risk of having an aggressive prostate cancer is high. But if your score is less than seven, 7%, then your risk of having an aggressive prostate cancers is lower. So I used that as a consideration as well. Dr. Espo:   Then you look at family history and then you look at diet and lifestyle. Like if you smoked and if you drank and if you ate like crap and you have this family history and you had a Gleason six, I'm probably going to tell you, you know what, let's be very, very aggressive with this. Then I would say we should do MP-MRI, which is called a Multi-parametric MRI, which is a very, very specific and very advanced MRI that can look at your prostate and identify nodules very, very clearly and then also identify how risky they are for prostate cancer. Dr. Espo:   So your question was very simple, but it's a very complex scenario and algorithm. And essentially what it comes down to is urologists are a little bit more, they're really a bit more excited to do surgery because look, their thought is, well, if I see a sign of cancer, let me just get rid of it so there's very little to no risk. Rather than saying, Oh, let me just watch it. But a lot of men don't want to have prostatectomies, they don't want their prostate removed because it can lead to incontinence. It can lead to erectile dysfunction. It can lead to chronic pain and it's not a cure.... Dr. Espo:   If you miss a little bit of your prostate during the surgery, there's a risk of it coming back. Now, it depends on if it's spread or not, but I've seen men who get a prostate removed, their PSA is zero and then two years later their PSA is at like 0.8 and I'm like, huh. Point eight is low, but it's high if you don't have a problem with prostate. There are some breast cancers that can cause a PSA to increase, but that's like a canary in a coal mine. So you have to take all of these things into consideration. Dr. Espo:   What I usually tell men is see two urologists and then see a integrative naturopathic functional medicine doctor who understands urology, who understands prostate cancer so they can really just be your quarterback and show you, "This is the whole picture. I'm not here to remove your prostate and I'm also not here. I'm also here to make sure you live forever. I have your best interests in mind. I don't have your pros... You know, the surgery is not my best. It's not in my best interest. So let me give you my, you know, 40,000 foot view." Mason:   Are urologists often surgeons as well? Dr. Espo:   Yes. Most of the time they are, there are urologists who don't do surgery, but most of the time they do. Mason:    [inaudible 00:31:07] Yeah. So what do they call them? Scalp jockeys. Dr. Espo:   I can't remember that. Mason:   I get it. If you've got a particular skill and you've been trained in a particular way, you want to play the safe game, but is it the safe game longterm, they don't have to be there 20 years from now with you when you don't have a prostate, so. Dr. Espo:   Right. Mason:   So man, thanks for that. Such good information. Really good. It's bringing up a lot of reminders for me, I can make sure I'm staying onto it, but especially, just being able to have this information to share with like family members fathers and all that. So it's like, yeah. Awesome. Now testosterone levels in general we've talked about in the last pod how we don't necessarily, we're not necessarily aiming to just have like through the roof testosterone levels that, having it in levels we can't even prove that increased levels are going to relate to like super increased output and it's generally just making sure that it's not bottomed out or super excessive. Is there an association between testosterone levels and prostate issues? First of I'll ask you that quick snappy question Dr. Espo:   Prostate issues as a totality of prostate cancer? Mason:   Well, just as a totality. Dr. Espo:   So increased dihydrotestosterone and its metabolites can increase your risk of enlarged prostate and some type of prostate cancers, but it's not the testosterone that is the issue. So I answered your short question with a short answer, but if you really want me to go in, I can. Mason:   Yeah. Well let's go. What's the issue there? Because obviously beyond prostate health, this is going to have a huge effect on our overall health. Dr. Espo:   Yeah. So what we've found is that the dihydrotestosterone, there's a beta and an alpha metabolite we call 3 alpha diol and 3 beta diol. And those are metabolites of DHT, and DHT alone can bind to androgen receptors, it binds to androgen receptors with a significantly increased affinity compared to testosterone. That's why a lot of men who take testosterone and they get acne or they get alopecia. So they lose their hair. That's because of the androgen gen receptors. So it has all to do androgen receptor sensitivity. Mason:   Really? They get alopecia from testosterone therapy? Dr. Espo:   Yeah, they certainly can. Yep. But then you have to look at the DHT and its metabolites. And the literature shows that the metabolites, these alpha and beta dial metabolics of DAC combined two estrogen receptors, and if the estrogen receptors that can cause the prostate to become poorly differentiated. So there's SGO receptors that cause the prostate to grow largely, but not maliciously. And then there's estrogen receptors that cause the prostate to grow maliciously. And it's the metabolites of the HT that bind to those receptors that cause it to grow maliciously, malignantly cause it to grow, what we say poorly differentiated, which then will cause the prostate to be more prone to prostate cancer. Mason:   So is it estrogen mimicking? Dr. Espo:   It's not estrogen mimic? Well, that an interesting question. Is it estrogen mimicking? I guess if you had defined estrogen mimicking as the ability to bind to estrogen receptors, then yes, it would. Mason:   All right. Are those are the same... I don't know much about these pathways, but always what sticks in my head is 16 alpha hydroxy estrone being one that is turning on that I don't know if this is like a bit generalized, but the genes that can lead to prostate and breast cancer, is that kind of in that realm of those receptors that have been here? Dr. Espo:   Different, actually a little bit different. So it's the four hydroxy metabolite of estrogen, so the 4OH estrogone that is more detrimental. And what it does, it causes DNA adducts. So actually, it does bind to estrogen receptors, but it actually goes into the nucleus, bind to your DNA and breaks up these DNA bonds and causes DNA adducts. So it genuinely destroys your DNA directly, whereas the two hydroxy estrogone is less likely to do that, is a little bit more protective and is has a lower affinity to make DNA adducts. Dr. Espo:   And a great way to get rid of four hydroxy estrogone and two hydroxy estrogone is with methylation. And as you know with the Dutch test, which I just think it's an exceptional test, you can test those metabolites in your urine and you can also see how much of that is be converted to the methylated forms. And that'll tell you, are you capable of getting rid of these things if and when you are exposed to them. Mason:   Cool. Okay, great. I mean, yeah, like we love Carrie. And I think the ladies have had it. We've recommended Dutch tests a lot, but of course, guys, and I'm really feeling it. I don't know, I'd love to get in there myself and get some actual, there's some real live panels going, so worth going and doing. But so I mean, this is something that comes around to springtime at the moment here. It's liver season and we just naturally go in there and just increase those methylators and whether it's just the B12 and betaine''ss and broccoli's and MSM, methylsulfonylmethane and so on and so forth. Just I guess really good to just get in there and clean house as well. The cruciferous vegetables. Right? Dr. Espo:   Absolutely. And I think beyond that is why not just get it at the source and prevent your body from aromatizing all of this testosterone into estrogen, into E1. Mason:   So then we do go into the conversation of aromatase inhibitors. I mean, I know a favorite is nettle root? I guess like a passion flower kind of fits in there. Dr. Espo:   Passion flower has crisen in it. Yep. Mason:   Okay. And that's, and that's what's causing that action? Dr. Espo:   Yes, it is. Doses have to be very high, however. A high dose will be- Mason:   On which level? Dr. Espo:   Of crisen. Mason:   Of crisen, okay. Dr. Espo:   Of crisen. So the doses have to be higher because it's absorbed pretty poorly. So there is one company, I don't know the name of it but they do like liposomal and- Mason:   Livon it. Is it those guys, the little satchels? The little- Dr. Espo:   I don't remember. What was it called? Mason:   L-I-V-O-N. Livon. Dr. Espo:   I don't remember. That might be them. I don't use very much. What I do is I try to establish a lifestyle that prevents you from aromatizing because I think that has a larger impact. It's kind of like taking a piss in the ocean. If you.. If you try to take a piss in the ocean, it feels like you're doing something, but in the grand scheme of things, you're really not doing too much. So I think making sure you're having a low insulin type of diet or diet that is not conducive to hyperinsulinemia and I bet is void or limited and alcohol because alcohol will induce aromatase enzyme. You exercise and keep body fat down and weight train and keep your anaerobic activity high so that you can induce growth hormone and testosterone and keep cortisol levels down because those are the things that will push you to aromatase. Mason:   Speaking of training, man, you're looking good. Dr. Espo:   Oh yeah. I actually injured my shoulder recently. So my- Mason:   So you're like this is nothing? Dr. Espo:   You don't look so big anymore. I said, yeah, because all I could do is work out my legs. So I said, "Give me till the summer. I'll have a bottom just like J-Lo. Mason:   I notice how jacked curves we're looking. In terms of training, just briefly... your life revolves around the optimization often, and therefore you've been a men's health specialist. It's like a very, very relevant for us to take a peak into the routine. What type of training you're doing, and then off the back of that, just have you got any supplements and things that you've taking around your training routine would just be like really nice to just get an insight. And you say a lot on the Instagram, so I'll say it for you. You don't say that what you take, everyone should take. So this is just Dr.Espo's routine. Dr. Espo:   Yeah, this is my own personal routine. So my type of training revolved around weight training with very little rest. I don't do a lot of power lifting. I'm not trying to be the world's strongest man. And my goal of training is to induce an anaerobic response to increase lactic acid in a very short period of time in order to induce an optimal hormonal response. Because we do know that lactic acid in a very short burst will cause your body and your lighting cells to make more testosterone. That we know that is the mechanism by which we think weight training increases testosterone. So that's number one. Dr. Espo:   I don't do endurance exercise, so you won't catch me running a half marathon. The most, I'll probably run it as a five K because you know, beyond 45 minutes of endurance high intensity or high zone, zone four, zone five or zone, yeah, zone three, zone four type of wei.. Endurance training, you will start increasing cortisol levels at approximately the 45 to 60 minute Mark. So you won't catch me doing that. Instead, I do short bursts of exercise that allow me to increase my aerobic capacity. So that would be like the Airdyne or I'll do like the Tabata type of training as part of my cardio. And then my downtime is yoga and stretching. Dr. Espo:   So I am not a yoga expert. I would love to be because my mobility is crap. But beyond the mobility part, I find that we do need a little bit of... I mean, I live in New York, man. It's intense. It's stimulating. And I think yoga is a great way to just zone yourself out. Mason:   What style of yoga's are you doing? Dr. Espo:   Yeah.And then my supplements are, I do creatine monohydrate. I do beta alanine, I do some branch chain amino acids because I do time restricted feeding. So I typically only eat for about six to eight hours of the day. And if I work out fasting, I want to make sure that I'm optimizing my muscle synthesis. So branching amino acids helped me do that. And then all my other... my herbs, I do rhodiola, ashwagandha I actually do some deer antler as well. I actually, honestly, I love yours. I've noticed the best impact with that. I know a few other companies, I've used it I'm not saying that to brown nose, I actually find your product to be very good. Mason:   Thanks man. Yeah, it's a really good product. I'm really proud of that one. Dr. Espo:   Yeah. And surprisingly, I kind of liked the taste of it, so don't [inaudible 00:43:28]. A lot of people are like, "I hate the taste." I'm like, "Oh, it's actually not that bad." Mason:   Yeah, I agree. Dr. Espo:   And then yeah, that's pretty much it. And then B vitamins and et cetera and fish oil. Mason:   On the fish oil as well. You got to get those omega's in. Dr. Espo:   Yes, absolutely. I do a lot of flax and chia, but I like to get my EPA and DHA straight, so I do that. Mason:   Yeah, of course, man. So good. Hey before, you know, we've gone on for a little bit here, but we've got a while longer for possibly the most important conversation we'll be having in Brovember is around mental health. Suicide levels have been crazy high. Unacceptably high in men, in the Western world. I might just like open... Let's just open that book and dive down. Do you want to just like start us off in this conversation and your work around it? Dr. Espo:   Yeah, I think this is a really important conversation to have because a lot of men don't really realize that one of major killers in men under the age of 30 is suicide or accidents or homicide. And it's really important to discuss because approximately 20% of all accidents and injuries are due to suicide in men, depending on your age. So usually from like 20 to about 35 is when you're at the highest risk. And as you get older, that risk tends to decrease. But I really want to emphasize the fact that mental health is super important and it's important because you need to know when you're not well, and it's okay to say when you're unwell. I think there's a little bit of a stigma around saying you're mentally fatigued or anxious or depressed or moody, right? Dr. Espo:   It's like, no, only women can be moody around their period. Like, no, that's bullshit. Number one, not all women are moody around their period and men can be moody too. So it's okay to say that you're feeling that way. And certainly it's a life risk factor for young men. And I actually see it a lot more because I see more men, but you see young men who have the pressures of being like their dad or being like they're superheroes, right? And they want to do performance enhancing drugs and they want to take testosterone and they want to do all these things to improve their appearance or the way they appear to social media, right? But in the inside, all that shit is fake. Mason:   It's all fake. Dr. Espo:   It's all fake. My Instagram feed when you go into the search has bunch of guys like with six pack abs, eat this, not that have this to lose body fat. Like not everybody is like that. Mason:   Well, and that's the thing about training. I mean... Dan Sipple, who introduced us, he was on the podcast and we were talking around about the shame sometimes that we have around building testosterone at this point. And really coming into this place where we're really potentiating ourselves, especially if you are aware of just how stupidly superficial and boofy, the #Gains Instagram fitness world is that doesn't necessarily seem to have much intention. Mason:   And I think the other thing around these physical trainings is they're not embedded in a philosophy that has any ancient roots or any genuine intention that a human, a healthy human would have towards being just a beautiful person for themselves and community and have longevity in the way that they are, that they can continue just to, right up into the end, be able to have a chuckle and stay you know, contributing beautiful person. Mason:   And so I think it's always important to realize how detrimental all that stuff is to mental health. And then where I found myself in when having my identity crisis. I wasn't in the bodybuilding kind of world, but I was definitely in the excessive health world that leads you down towards more orthorexia in obsession with what I was eating. But then you start getting into this like exasperation of like, if it's not about that identity crisis, if it's not about that, what is it about? Mason:   And if there is that, well if they're, there's is, as I said, there's a that quagmire, which seems to not be, you can't on the mesh that desire to potentiate your physicality and be a robust human without associating with that part of yourself that historically had the identity wrapped so far up and in high up in those gains equaling you being a quality human or being someone that is worthy. And so I feel like that conversation is being had more and more. But not real question, I'll throw it back over to you now. I'm not necessarily the answer or anything, but yeah, you just brought that reflection up in me. Dr. Espo:   Yeah. I mean I don't think there is an answer. I think the answer is just make sure you take care of yourself. You do need self care. You can't be macho and tough all the time. I meditate every morning. If I'm feeling down, I tell my girlfriend or I tell my family, "I'm not feeling well right now. Like I'm not doing okay." "Well why?" "Because I'm not sleeping or I'm stressed out over this." It's okay to say those things because they're there to help you and you need help sometimes. We can't be expected... just piggybacking on what you said, humans, we are social animals, we are group animals, and we do well when we have support and that's just how we've evolved. And we've seen this for centuries of just human culture and it's typically when we become supporting each other as when we can achieve the most. Dr. Espo:   No one person has basically taken credit for the greatest inventions in the world, right? It's always been a collaborative process. And your health should be viewed the same way. If you want optimal health, it should be a collaborative process. So make sure you have the right social support, make sure you have the right access to foods, make sure you have the right access to doctors and physicians and therapists and acupuncturists and trainers and all of those, whatever you need. But build your clan so that it can support you. Don't expect to do this on your own. Dr. Espo:   And I think that's the most important part about mental health is like, we do see a lot of mental health issues in today's society and we do see a lot of gun shootings. And whether that's a result of media or whatever it is, it doesn't matter. It's still exists and we should aware that it's manageable before it gets to that point. Mason:   Couple of things just in terms of you talking to your family and just kind of say like, I'm not doing so well, not sleeping, not doing. I think the whole stigma around when men finally get to that point where they have to go down. It's like with the man flu, it's like tough and burly, hold on tough, tough, tough, tough. She'll be right, mate. And then if you do need to really go down, if you get the flu, the only way you can justify it as a lot of the time is to go into like victim and really sooky mode. Mason:   And what you're talking about and just like has been really significant in my life is when you are asked like how you're doing, people who are close to you, of course you have to go around to saying it to strangers. But not needing it to be like really super charged and not necessarily needing to so much significance and victim- hood into it. Mason:   Just being kind of like, how healthy it is just to release the pressure and just be like, "Yeah, not so great at the moment. I've just been like sad and I've been going down every now and then and not feeling like I have much motivation. I can't really see a point, whatever you know of. Although those are very significant feelings and you go and talk to someone. Even if it is like if it's not like a massive, big thing, just having like a real, it's almost a nonchalant sharing with your family. It doesn't have to come from like victimhood, but you don't have to do anything with them. You don't have to solve anything. It's just that gentle sharing consistently what you're feeling is really significant Dr. Espo:   And it can make you feel better. Mason:   Yeah. Dr. Espo:   And that's really what we want. We just want you to be well, and just by saying it, "I'm not feeling so great right now." It's like, Oh, okay. I've been able to come to terms with that. Well, that's what meditation is, right? But I meditate every day. I'm thinking about a million different things while I'm meditating. But I still come back to my thought. I'm like, okay, I am thinking about those things, therefore I can overcome them and overthink them. Same thing about expressing your feelings. Mason:   Yeah, that's significant in terms of many different styles of meditation, many different ways that you can practice and have reflection in the morning. But what you are speaking to is very simple, yet profound and almost can't be captured in one particular practice because it's synonymous with a healthy human who's giving yourself space to be like, ah, you know what? You would've just gone and distracted yourself all day. However, that obviously is very important to me and it's triggering a pattern and it's going to be playing out through my day. Maybe I can grab it and do something about it. That's so good, man. Hey, is there anything else you wanna say on that? Dr. Espo:   No, I think we've hit all the right points. I just want men to know, you know, it's, we all feel that. Mason:   Oh yeah, we do. I just went and had a recently at a good psychological little clean out to put it in a jovial sense. But I just went and had a week offline doing a bit of that work and feel all better for us and all the benefit of not having to do it on the sly and in the shadows. Dr. Espo:   Absolutely. Mason:   I'll let you go in a second. I just wanted to just quickly end on andropause. I know this is probably a huge conversation, but I know we probably have a somewhat of a handle on what it is, but can I just ask you from your perspective, what is andropause and what is it in very much if you want to get like energetic and spiritual about what it is for human, I'd kind of feel in that way. It's obviously a bridging, but physiologically I assume everything we've talked about is going to help us maintain an easy transition. But what can we prepare for and look out for in ourselves or when we're observing family members going through it? Dr. Espo:   Yeah. I think in essence andropause or mano-pause or whatever you want to call it, is the point at which men start experiencing a change in their hormones. Similar to female menopause except female menopause typically happens sometimes like this, just like your hormones drop. Whereas men, I think after the age of 30, they lose about 1.1 to like 1.6% of their testosterone per year. All right. So it seems very slow progress and essentially it's a point in which a man feels less like his 20 or 30-year-old self. And it's a psychological experience. It's a physiological experience. Sex drive is lower. They don't recover from poor sleep as well. They don't recover from poor diet as well. They have more aches and pains from weight training. They're really sore after and they have sexual dysfunction and things like that. Dr. Espo:   That is what... and then obviously they have low testosterone levels. They don't have low testosterone levels to be in menopause or andropause. So it's essentially a period in a man's life as to which they are experiencing these things, which can be contributed to low testosterone, but it doesn't have to happen when you're 50. So it can happen younger, but that we just call that hypogonadism or low testosterone or testosterone deficiency. But it can happen when you're like 70, and that's a normal response because over time your fertility does decrease and your brain does become fatigued if you're under the chronic stress of 70 years. Dr. Espo:   So it's something that occurs frequently, but it's not necessarily normal. Like menopause, female menopause is a normal physiologic response. But with men, that doesn't have to be that way. And I think it's largely a lifestyle issue that's comorbid with obesity and metabolic syndrome and high insulin levels and weight gain and et cetera. Mason:   Wow. So, yeah. Right. So it's like, it's just a little bit of a wake up call away then. Dr. Espo:   Yeah. It's like, Hey, something's wrong here. The first thing I usually come in, the first thing to go is your sexual dysfunction. And when you notice that your penis isn't working as well, that should be a sign to say, all right, let me get on top of this because something's wrong. Mason:   So I mean, it's almost like at that, when you kind of exit that lifespan and enter into that death span, right? Like I imagine it's that same like you've in a Taoist perspective, you've basically burned through your Jing and you therefore don't have the ability to maintain and manage, the function of the skeletal system, bone marrow and androgens. Right? Dr. Espo:   Right. Exactly. So, in Chinese medicine, it's a Jing deficiency. Mason:   All right. I love it. And it just the fact that andropause is a wake up call and you can start getting on top of your health now integrating all these things that we're talking about and not have to go through that process. You can give yourself a wake up calls in other ways that aren't as intense. Dr. Espo:   Right. Mason:   All right. Man, I love it. I really appreciate you coming on for Brovember and laying all this down. I know everyone else does. But let's tune in. Obviously you've got areas that you're deeply researching. Make sure you let me know when you start cracking into something like really new and juicy. Hit me up and we'll go for around four. Dr. Espo:   You got it, man. Mason:   I recommend everyone go and follow you on Insta. You really rocking it even just going back to your story highlights, you've got like a heaps of really deep information on there. Are you Dr. Ralph Espo, is that right? Dr. Espo:   It's dr.ralphesposito. Mason:   All right, Doc, I will put it in the show notes as well. And website? Dr. Espo:   Right now it's just Instagram. That is under development. Mason:   Okay. Sweet. Thanks so much, bro. Dr. Espo:   (Thanks man. Thanks for having me. 

Last week we discussed COPPA and the thousands of data points children create just by living and using our personal devices. Students also create data points at school which we hope to use to support teachers in helping those students achieve at their very best. It comes in many forms. You have SAT data, mandated state reporting data, but you also have a kindergarten student identifying colors, that's data, too. It's everywhere. TechTool of the Week:Copyrighteous Podcast Full TranscriptLarry Burden 0:00 big theme that no one's gonna getLarry Burden 0:07 Think Twilight Zone, and then you lose faith in humanity.Andy Phillips 0:11 It sounds uplifting.Larry Burden 0:11 It's fun for me,Danelle Brostrom 0:12 it's very interesting.Andy Phillips 0:15 It's my favorite of all time.Larry Burden 0:22 It's Episode 94 of the EdTech Loop podcast. My name is Larry Burden and her midi-chlorian count is off the charts it's Danelle Brostrom, and also joining us, the TCAPS Yoda of data, Mr. Andy Phillips. We've learned to trust our feelings, which has revealed this week's moment of ZenMoment of Zen 0:40 Pass on what you have learned, strength, mastery, but weakness, folly, failure, also yes, failure.Larry Burden 0:50 Stay for some soup, you must, if you are to partake in this week's meat of the show, the light side of data. So, last week, last week's episode, we had, we had kind of a darker, maybe a little darker..Danelle Brostrom 1:05 It wasn't dark it was informative,Larry Burden 1:06 it was informative, but we kind of talked about data and how maybe the privacy of our children can be invaded and some of, some data points regarding them might be used for a less than helpful purpose in their life. We wanted to have, Mr. Phillips on here, Andy on to discuss what our school districts do with data that can really help them really achieve and grow in their learning. So with that being said, How are we using student data.Andy Phillips 1:40 First Larry, let me, let me say that I did listen to last week's podcast. Larry and I had a brief conversation last night at an organization outside of school. And we talked about, COPPA, which, which I learned about listening to the podcast. I also, it was awesome because I was picking up my kid from gymnastics, which is where I saw Larry, and to listen to the podcast and the amount of time it took me to get home, I listened to it I'm double speed.Danelle Brostrom 2:07 Nice.Larry Burden 2:08 Very high voices.Andy Phillips 2:10 It was awesome, yes. And because I know both of you have made it way more entertaining.Danelle Brostrom 2:13 It makes me talk even faster.Andy Phillips 2:16 And my daughter was freaked out by it to.Danelle Brostrom 2:17 Okay, I'm gonna do that.Andy Phillips 2:19 So I did listen to it and it was interesting that we call, to me that's, that's data. Yeah, I get it. And you guys talking about the thousands of data points that are out there just by basically living, not doing anything crazy high tech all the time, just living and using your personal devices creates all these data points. Well students have data points to and that's what we'll talk about today, I would assume is how we use student, like, assessment type data which comes in all sorts of forms. So how do we use it? It goes from school board reporting, state reporting, to the best use of data, which is teachers using it to help their students achieve at their very best. So that's a broad question, but that's a super, super broad answer that's how we use it, and it comes, you know, it's all sorts of forms. You have SAT data, which is college entrance and it's also mandated state reporting data, but you also have a kindergarten student identifying colors, that's data, too. Because of that student can identify colors and the teacher sees that, well, that student needs work on colors or patterns or shapes or whatever. So it's everywhere.Larry Burden 3:31 You just kind of have, you know, pretty much answer the second question, but I want to go a little bit deeper so the next question was what data is being collected? And you kind of did it broadly. On a district level and in the classroom level what are we, what are we targeting? What kind of data is targeted by the district? 'Cuz I think that's, as you said, we're always collecting data. Every teachers is in the classroom collecting data, it's called observation. What data are we then trying to track and really use? Because I think one of the neat things that we're doing, you know, the Blueprint to some extent is really going on here what data is useful, and then kind of focusing and tracking that. What kind of are some of those things that oh, this is what we really want to key in on?Andy Phillips 4:13 First of all, if it's not useful, and we don't have to do it, we shouldn't do it. That's, that's the bottom line Danelle's nodding.Danelle Brostrom 4:20 Write that down. Say that again for the people in the back.Andy Phillips 4:22 Right, and that's something that we have worked on with teams. And an example of that is we've taken away a lot of assessments for, that were required in the elementary world that we just weren't using and teachers weren't using. And if they were using they still have the option of, of doing it, right. From the district level, we use the summative data the most: MSTEP, PSAT, SAT, NWEA, and I'm excited with this new data tool that Danelle, and I went to a thing on OTUS which compiles these data points together. So, last week at Traverse Heights, when they had their half-day release-day, probably for the first time, maybe, maybe not for the first time ever, but the first, for the first time without doing hours and hours of laborious cutting and pasting, I was able to show a fifth grade teacher, here are your students last four NWEA scores along with their two last M-STEP scores. So that teacher can then narrow down, these are my real bubble students. Because this student was proficient in M-STEP math last year but not this year, and NWEA scores indicate that the student has a shot at being proficient on M-STEP. What does she do with that data, she's aware, that's the most important thing in my opinion. She's just aware so that she just holds that student to this higher standard knowing that, yeah, your track record says, you can do it and you'll be a needle mover for our school. The more local it can be the better. Anything is data. You said it, observations are data and oftentimes teachers don't remember that or recognize that as being as important as some of this other stuff. I think another theme I say all the time whenever I'm working with teachers is you always should have a reason for what you're doing, and there should be some sort of output. And the reason for what you're doing is usually, whatever the assessment is going to be, right? So whatever that is, you should be using it to gauge how closely, students are coming into whatever the learning target is. I had a Moment of Zen moment. I did a...Larry Burden 6:18 Only if it's a Yoda quote because that's what I was going withAndy Phillips 6:20 It's not YodaDanelle Brostrom 6:22 Listened to last weeks pod and has a Moment of Zen, you need to come back often.Andy Phillips 6:24 I've got a couple of them. Just because I, the Moments of Zen, make me laugh every time that I hear them. This is a good one. It's not Star Wars though, it's from Mark TwainMoment of Zen 6:37 Data is like garbage. Better know what you're going to do with it before you collect it.Andy Phillips 6:43 Are you going to put sound effects in thereLarry Burden 6:44 100% hundred percent. I might even change your voice, put you on half speed. Well, we have the data. We know how it's being collected. How are we communicating those findings with teachers? How are we making it useful? We have these, these points, these tools. We have the data, as you said, we want to know what we're going to do with it. So how are we communicating that?Andy Phillips 7:07 Yeah. The more the teacher can own the data, the better. but there are so many, so many different areas that that data is located. That sometimes...Larry Burden 7:18 Let's start at the district level and go down.Andy Phillips 7:19 It can be a roadblock. Okay, well I'm thinking of how do we get this data to teachers. So NWEA is a really good example. Many teachers, probably most teachers, maybe even all teachers are pretty savvy at manipulating the NWEA Data Warehouse website. So they go on and probably look at a quadrant report which is maybe the best thing that...Danelle Brostrom 7:38 I agree.Andy Phillips 7:38 teachers can look at as far as just like a balcony view. But teachers are doing that themselves. It's not like, I mean some principals might give teachers a copy of maybe they're quite a report, but it's all about the teacher being able to mine it. And then, you know, as far as other data points go. It's just a matter of how savvy teachers are themselves at mining into it. Like I'm thinking another really rich source of data is Think Central, because we do all sorts of assessments on Think Central. But if the teacher isn't savvy about how to get in there and do it, and really look at the results, you can see results by Common Core State Standards in Think Central, but it takes some clicks to get there and often that can be a roadblock.Larry Burden 8:20 I'm sorry to interrupt, what is Think Central?Andy Phillips 8:23 It's the online testing tool that's our big publishing company for elementary reading and math. It's where all the assessments are housed, and kids take the tests through Think Central. So unit tests, passage tests, those kinds of things.Larry Burden 8:42 So it's not all over the place. They're not having to search and...Andy Phillips 8:44 Right, but the more savvy you are. So Danelle can speak to this too because there are teachers out there that get just gobs of really good information, and so when it comes time for something like report cards. Teachers can pull these really great reports, by doing smart things from Think Central, but their, I would say more savvy at being able to use it. And it definitely has, just like everything else, a personality to it. And sometimes it doesn't always, you know, work like we want it to work and whatever. But if you're less savvy, you're just probably doing what the minimum requirements are, and then what happens is the data? Probably not much.Larry Burden 9:21 As a Tech Coach, what are you finding regarding Think Central and that usability, what questions are you being asked Danelle?Danelle Brostrom 9:28 I love that we're at the point where we're asking these questions, frankly. I love that education is at this point where we're saying, how am I going to use this data today to make changes to my instruction tomorrow. And if I'm not using the data let's get rid of it. And how do I question what I'm giving the kids to decide whether it's actually going to make a difference or not. Like, I love that we're at a point in education where we're doing that. Because the beginning of my career, we weren't. We were still just following what we were supposed to be doing. We weren't, we weren't giving it that extra piece of thought, and using the data in this way. So I love that we're here. I totally agree with Andy. I think it just depends on the teachers comfort level with using that data. We've, we've done a really good job at collecting it but I think that next piece, and this is the same everywhere, I think that next piece of actually how to use that data to change your instruction is where we're at. I think we're doing, we're making strides with that every day.Andy Phillips 10:18 One more thing to that I think is really important and relevant to this part of any kind of data conversation is that it shouldn't just be used, like for, for individual students, and individual student growth. And a lot of my work, probably my favorite part of my work, is when a teacher has a really good idea, and wants to try something in his or her classroom. You can use data to see if something is working or not. Instead of thinking how am I going to look at it today, to adjust for tomorrow. You can think of it, what do I want the data to show based on my hypothesis that this will be a needle mover for students. And so setting these goals then looking back, like holistically at, did this work. To either validate or to say you have to change what I thought wasn't going to work. That's another really powerful use of it, and that's another thing that wasn't really happening I don't think when we all started in this field. We would do something, and it basically sunsetted when the material got old or things ran its course. And we would maybe try something different and the only thing we had to prove anything might be MEAP scores or something like that. And even then, it was so, so in the past, whatever that data was that you can make..Larry Burden 11:33 The MEAP was always well behind and not useful.Andy Phillips 11:35 And the MSTEP continues to be. So we have all this data that's now in real time. But, I just wanted to put that in here that, that's another thing that teachers need to be empowered to use it for decision making for, for things that they, they think about. Just it's all over the place, when a teacher has an idea, and we can actually give it a shot and pilot something, the pilot comes along with, well what are the expectations, and if we don't meet those expectations we have to go back to either the way it was or rethink.Danelle Brostrom 12:02 I think it's exciting for teachers because I think things are more concrete. It's not just kind of like oh, it feels like it's, it's, it's okay it's working.Larry Burden 12:10 Driving down the road without headlights on.Danelle Brostrom 12:11 Yeah, it feels more concrete and it's exciting for students because it's definitely we're doing things that are making a difference.Larry Burden 12:17 What's the most striking or surprising piece of data that you've run into since you've been here?Andy Phillips 12:24 Larry that would have been a great way to give me a heads up on beforeDanelle Brostrom 12:25 Tough question, wow.Larry Burden 12:25 I thought about it.Andy Phillips 12:30 The most surprising thing to me was that, and continues to be that data is located in so many different places. And you really have to work to try to make sense of it for whatever different stakeholder group that you work with. Gosh, I'd say the most interesting thing and it probably was the same thing before I, before I came and will continue to be because it's like this, this big puzzle. It's really interesting to me that students who may be high achieving on one type of test, or are pretty high achieving like good AB students sometimes are not high achieving on some, like, like an M-STEP or like a PSAT. And so that's something that a lot of curriculum leaders at TCAPS are trying to really hone in on. Which is why I mentioned getting that data all compiled together so we can identify who those students are, and, and hopefully move the needle. But that continues to surprise me. So I just looked at a thing today, that I shared with someone that had a student who scored, like in the 80th percentile in the last iteration of NWEA math, but wasn't proficient on the last iteration of the M-STEP for that student, but was proficient on two years agos M-STEP. That's what's interesting to me. And, just to try to build more consistency in it for students, so that when it comes time to take that 11th grade SAT which is as high stakes as it gets. Because that's the thing that can get kids into college and financial assistance, and to make those more predictable. And, you know, if we can hone in on those types of students and really help them achieve proficiency that's going to be good for everybody.Larry Burden 14:06 How does the Blueprint help in that communication process, in that finding out what information, what data is useful? You know, that back and forth. It's funny, I hear a lot of your meetings, because you're right next door to my office and I hear some really good discussion about data, how has that...Andy Phillips 14:25 Do you hear the bad discussions?Larry Burden 14:25 I put the headphones on.Andy Phillips 14:25 Yeah, right.Larry Burden 14:29 How does that, that structure help that dialogue?Andy Phillips 14:32 Probably the most important thing we do with the Blueprint is something that is just really good practice whether your Blueprint District or not, but the Blueprint forces you to do it, is this thing called Performance Management. So every month the Instruction, Curriculum Instruction Team sits down basically with Principals, sometimes Assistant Principals, sometimes Teacher Leaders from each school, and we go over, basically the balcony view of data. And then Principals and those Teacher Leaders are prompted to have those same discussions with their building networks. Without something like the Blueprint, those things wouldn't be in place to do so regularly. And it just holds you to doing them regularly. And it forces you, and that's a, that's an okay word to use here, it forces you to pick some sort of data to discuss each month. And we have it all laid out. So like, the first month was M-STEP data, because it was September first time we've talked about it, since we came back from summertime. The next month was NWEA holistic proficiency data. This next month is going to be what we can mine out of Think Central. Getting local, talking about student grades with secondaries. But we're kind of forced to stick to the same timelines so that Principals know what to prepare for and so that you know we just don't going to be talking about when each month comes. That's a really powerful part of the Blueprint. It holds you to these things, and it makes you lay it out for the year so that you have something to follow.Larry Burden 15:54 Teaching students is really complex, and I know in the past, having been some of those meeting, meetings, involving curriculum, it can spiral very quickly into a ton of different topics, and it's really hard to manage a meeting and make sure that you have an outcome that's workable and actionable. It's been interesting to hear those, the meetings, involving the Blueprint, because it always seems like there's something actionable coming out of it that's data driven.Andy Phillips 16:20 Yep, when we're leading meetings, like we're having a social studies workbook committee that just, I'm organizing the agenda now and there's going to be data in that committee. We're going to put out there our struggling, 5th grade M-STEP Social Studies scores because that's the objective of that group. And that's, there's no reason not to make it the objective. There's no reason not to say that we're coming together, investing in teachers to make the work more robust for students because we think that'll move the needle with M-STEP scores. So yeah, even, even on stuff like that we're bringing data back into the conversation all the time.Larry Burden 16:53 To tie in what we talked about last week, we are collecting all this data, how are we keeping it safe? And we all look at Danelle?Andy Phillips 16:59 I learned about COPPA last night, at double speed, in my car so.Danelle Brostrom 17:07 Well I think currently all the places where we are keeping data we've negotiated the terms of those agreements with those companies so we're good with those. It's all of the random things that we just need to get ahold of.Larry Burden 17:19 The research has been done, and I think, I bring that up not to do a gotcha, I brought that up to, you know, if there are parents listening to this, to know that the main sources of data that we're using have been vetted.Danelle Brostrom 17:35 Yes,Larry Burden 17:35 You know, Danelle's read the,Danelle Brostrom 17:37 We got youLarry Burden 17:37 Terms, Danelle's read the policies. We're safe.Andy Phillips 17:40 Yeah, something that I found interesting coming to TCAPS is we did have a Danelle and we did have this big, fairly large Technology Department that does do all those things. And it took, it takes a minute to get used to all the people that you have to tell, or communicate with of things that you're doing going forward so that people like Danelle can make sure the privacy policy, policy is okay. And if it's not, you know, how can we work, either work through it, or make sure that we adjust whatever our agreement is so that it is ok. So those things do happen sometimes you have to be reminded Oh, you didn't tell so and so and you should have told them in the beginning. Getting better at that.Larry Burden 18:22 Well I think, I think we do have a bit of a Lone Ranger mentality sometimes in education. And, you know, we go off on our, our tangents. But the structures are there. The structure, structures are in place, not to put a lid on the creativity that's going on in the classroom, they're there to keep us safe in the classroom, and to support the teachers in doing what they could be doing. And making sure that, for instance the, the data that they're collecting from their students is safe and useful as you were saying earlier, you know if we're not using the data that's collected, we probably shouldn't be doing that assessment.Andy Phillips 18:57 Mark Twain said that.Larry Burden 19:01 With that, is there anything else Danelle?Danelle Brostrom 19:04 No.Larry Burden 19:04 All right. TechTool of the WeekAndy Phillips 19:08 Can ILarry Burden 19:08 I'm sorry, I'm sorryAndy Phillips 19:09 I prepared, I prepared, one more quote for this. This is a good Moment to Zen to.Moment of Zen 19:13 Data will talk to you if you willing to listen.Andy Phillips 19:16 By some guy named Jim Burgesson. And finally, I like this one too.Moment of Zen 19:22 If we have data let's look at data, if all we have our opinions. Let's go with mine.Andy Phillips 19:31 That's a good closing right?Danelle Brostrom 19:32 That should be one your business card.Larry Burden 19:33 Yes it should. TechTool of the Week. Beat that, follow that.Techtool of the Week 19:42 I can't. There is a new podcast out that I'm really enjoying it's called Copyrighteous, and it's by Diana Gill. And what she's doing is kind of awesome. They're called micro podcasts, and they are discussing responsible creativity for educators. So, leading on our privacy and COPPA discussion last week. Her first episode was just a short little five minute snippet where students want to know how to use music safely in a video project. Here's how to use music safely in this video project. I'm really interested to see where this podcast goes because I think anytime we can get those short snippets about digital citizenship and media literacy to our teachers, the better off we are. So keep an eye on this podcast they're doing some pretty cool stuff,Larry Burden 20:23 How long are they?Danelle Brostrom 20:24 five minutes, boom, here's your stuff here's what you need to know. So Copyrighteous.Larry Burden 20:28 Tutorials and updates, really, unbelievably, the TechNollerGist has no new tutorials this week which is the first time I think this year that he hasn't had at least two out. So, come on, come on, David, get busy.Andy Phillips 20:41 Maybe he should hold one back so he has one in the canDanelle Brostrom 20:42 Yeah David.Larry Burden 20:47 Last weekend three, to be honest, so I guess we'll give them a break this time. So really, I was just going to give another shout-out to the COPPA podcast last week I think it was really informative and it would benefit anybody to listen I do believe. So in closing, follow us on Facebook and Twitter @TCAPSLoopDanelle Brostrom 21:02 @BrostromdaAndy Phillips 21:04 @fishinspartyapLarry Burden 21:06 All right! Subscribe to the podcast on podbean, iTunes, Stitcher, Tune-in, Downcast, Overcast, the Google Play Store and Spotify or wherever else you get your ear candy. Leave a review, we love the feedback. Thanks for listening and inspiring.Andy Phillips 21:23 The next time if there's, if there's a focus for it, that would be lovely.Larry Burden 21:27 Sure.Transcribed by https://otter.aiMusic by Podington Bear

Chuck Clough  0:00  Hello, this is Chuck from Above the Basement Boston music and conversation. Hey, we have missed you all so much and hope to get back on a regular schedule. We are still working out some new projects and we will tell you about those very soon. But one thing we can tell you about something we are honored and excited to announce we have been nominated for a Boston Music Award for the 2019 Podcast of the Year and since I have personally never won a thing in my life, never mind a cool trophy. We would love for you to vote for us, or honestly whatever podcast you like and support as well as for you to vote for one of the many talented Boston artists nominated in their categories. Go to Boston Music Awards. com forward slash vote to make your choices. And thank you as always for supporting the Boston music community. This time around we finally got a chance to talk with singer songwriter and Boston native Matt York. Matt has been in the Boston music scene for quite a while now after stepping away from music to become aSecret Agent and family man Matt jumped back into music and has been quite prolific hitting the road often to perform and also released a few critically acclaimed albums, including Boston, Texas Between The Bars and just this month, his latest album Bruisable Heart. Right before we got a chance to see him play at lizard lounge and Cambridge with his talented wife on base for his CD release, we sat with him at Adelita's, his restaurant in West Concord, Massachusetts for a chat while the commuter rail would occasionally scream by us. We talked about his new album, his influences, the Boston music scene, and the dangers of mosquitoes. So here is our conversation with Matt York, recorded at Adelitas in West Concord, Massachusetts. They made bottled water illegal in Concord. It was like a big deal they have Matt York  1:55  Is Concord the town where they were talking about repealing it after they do cuz everybody saw like what a pain in the ass it was? Chuck Clough  2:02  I don't know maybe Matt York  2:03  it was a town do that I was just reading about in the Globe those that's trying to undo what they did because I Chuck Clough  2:09  look I'm all for not using plastic bottle but you can't make it illegal to use something a total legal product way they should have done is done a PSA to get people to get the stores to use give them the incentive to use this instead of making it illegal. . And you can have plastic bottles for Coke and Pepsi Yeah, it's just water bottled water. But you know, I mean, you know, we got over the hump and it's not really that big a deal anymore. And Matt York  2:39  I'll try to stop talking about this. But I'm not there yet.  what is it what is a what is a box of water cost? Chuck Clough  2:47  This was like $1 75 or something. Matt York  2:50  So my town they just got rid of plastic bags at the supermarket. And if I had a memory if I had the ability to remember to bring the ones that I have in the back of my car every time like The reusable ones. Yeah, it would be fine. But I just end up buying more and more and more reusable. That's what Chuck Clough  3:06  I was leaving the car and then Matt York  3:10  I'm all for the idea of it. Chuck Clough  3:11  So am I. But now I mean now that look it's it's, it's Ronnie  3:15  it looks like milk. Chuck Clough  3:18  Here comes a train. Box, a water box water is better. Ronnie  3:21  So, take it. You're from a town that doesn't care about box water. Matt York  3:27  I live in Pembroke Massachusetts. Yes. So Pembroke is the land locked town next to Duxbury and Marshfield on the South Shore? Ronnie  3:34  Really? You ever run into Steven Tyler when you go through there and I Matt York  3:37  No but I saw the drummer at breakfast maybe a year or two ago and he has like a Lamborghini or Ferrari or whatever. And we're like we're eating in Marshfield. And I like sound like they can only be a couple of guys in Marshfield that own that car. Chuck Clough  3:50  Well, you know it's also moving out there is Ari Hest you know already he's a great singer songwriter you interviewed him over the winter we have to wait fort the train to go by. His wife's family's out there and he's I guess he's moving out there now. He's fantastic. Ronnie  4:10  And Steve Carell was there too. Matt York  4:12  Yep. I actually he was he just came to visit. He owns a general store there. Yeah. And so he like once a year, he does this little thing where you can meet and meet him and he just raises money for something. Chuck Clough  4:24  We try to get him on the show. I was all right, just for the hell of it. And you never get back to me. There was Ronnie  4:30  Oh, you emailed him. I didn't know that. Chuck Clough  4:31  I emailed his sister. Yeah. Who runs the general store. Ronnie  4:38  He's from Acton. I know. His dad lives in Acton. We could go to his house .  We did that with Gary Pihl So Gary peel. He is a guitarist for Boston. The band Boston. So he was a guitarist for them since 85. He lives in my neighborhood, And so I drove I sat in his driveway, He was drive because I was going out to, you know, to the front door to knock on his door. I go in the car and he he pulls in slowly next to me he was out doing something.  I rolled down the window. And I'm like, you're probably wondering why I'm here. And you know, it was a little awkward. He humored us and came on. He came on one of our first like, first guest, I think, yeah, Chuck Clough  5:22  well, no, ever first, but he was in the first 50. I think he's very nice guy. Matt York  5:28  When did you start doing this? 2016? Chuck Clough  5:30  Yes, very good. Okay. Can you reached out to us pretty close to when we started Matt York  5:34  After after the globe article? When I saw the article on the globe, and then I started listening to it, Chuck  5:39  to be honest, you you're one of the first people to actually reach out to us to come on. . And so you've been on our list for forever. Yeah. And it's been like, I've been like, kind of putting, like all the people that we've been meaning that you have on there, like starred. You've been starred forever. So I'm so glad we finally got you, especially since we had booked Couple weeks ago and then I had some stuff to deal with and yeah so we did we can so I'm glad we it wasn't like another year so so it's happening right the sites have it's happening you've been started by Chuck more than once you were started here I am Here you are and we don't have enough you know white male singer songwriter zones yeah no that's that's a real major problem for us But but thank you for coming on and thank you for taking the trip I you know, I didn't realize you were from Pembroke that's a long Matt York  6:32  Yeah, no, I do a lot of driving my friends so let's Chuck Clough  6:35  I guess you used to it Ronnie  6:36  Want some bug spray stuff. I might put it right on your neck Chuck Clough  6:39  you guys getting a bit you get your hates that no, so far. I'm good. I'm not I saw a song right there but it's not gonna bite. Yeah, yeah, they're friendly around here. These are Concord mosquitoes. Unknown Speaker  6:50  The Sudbury mosquitoes only have to worry about with or with a AAA. Ronnie  6:55  AAA is bad.Have you ever heard of AAA? Chuck Clough  6:59  You can get sick from them but they're also change your tire. Matt York  7:02  So in our town like it all the other towns around us, they're all like banning swipe. Yeah, it's a sport like our town. It's like that hasn't reached that level. So they're still allowing it. Chuck Clough  7:13  Yeah, I think this is this is rock and roll right here. We are here. We're live surrounded by deadly mosquitoes. Okay, so let's actually talk about you. So well first of all you have your beautiful heart. Yeah, just came out. Yep. And you have a CD release coming up at the end of this month. Right? Correct. 28thof the lizard lounge. Right? Yeah, my favorite places to go. Matt York  7:40  Yeah, me too. It is. Yeah, I'm excited about it. My my wife and I actually met there 18 years ago. She wasn't musician and she's playing bass with me on the 28th Chuck Clough  7:50  what is what is her name? Her name is Beth. Her last name is York as well She's playing bass with me that night. We 18 years ago. We played a show together in a club in Worcester. I saw her and I was like, She's cute. I should invite her to open up for us at the lizard lounge. She came and did so. And we met that night. And, like, literally that weekend is the 18th anniversary of our first date. Ronnie  8:17  And what does she play other than she's now playing bass to play guitar before she blows us out? Matt York  8:22  Yes, she played bass years ago and, and she hadn't played in forever and I play probably 95% more than that of my shows just solo. I joke that it's too expensive to have her play bass because we have to get a babysitter every time. You know. Chuck Clough  8:40  It's it's sadly it's cheaper to get a bass player than it is to get a babysitter. Matt York  8:44  That's Amen. So do that every day. Yeah. So it'll be a rich Chuck Clough  8:49  it's a sad state of affairs. Yep. But at least you have a cute bass player that Matt York  8:52  that part is huge and and we get along Chuck Clough  8:55  How long you been playing in the Boston area for now. Matt York  8:57  So Chuck, this might be an interesting story. So I, I don't know if you know a guy named by the name of Rick Berlin who has been around forever. He was in a band called Berlin airlift. And yeah, I know that. I know the name of that. But yeah, so you had a hand in here recently many, many hands studio. Yeah. So I did an album with Dave and he did a bunch of Rick's albums and kind of back then in the 80s, late 80s and stuff Rick and Dave were in a lot of this that same circle. Rick wasn't really a punk though. He was more like talking heads. Lou Reed type world. Yeah. So I met him when I was in high school, and I started playing the clubs when I was a young kid, really young kid like 15. That's what many handed us playing when he was like, 15-16. Yep. So like places like the rat in the channel and been rowdies right when they were closing down. Yeah, I was like, the high school kid play in those places and played in a band called White Iris that was a popular indie punk band in the late 90s. For five or six years, we had a pretty good run. We played all over the East Coast, andAnd then I stopped forever. I stopped for 12 years. Yeah. And oh, and then I started back up four years ago. And I really didn't plan on doing much of anything more than just kind of recording and plan a couple songs in the studio. And this has been the third album now in four years. And I think I've played something like 13 states this year. So yeah, it's definitely not what I intended on doing. Yeah. But it kind of just took off. And really, when I was really young, my dad was just a huge, like, Lou Reed Bowie guy. And so I started off with that when I was like, seven, eight years old. And, you know, when I was a teenage kid, he was the one driving me to these clubs and, you know, unloaded my amp and stuff. And so he turned 70 a few years ago, and, you know, I think he was always a little bit bummed that I stopped doing music and so I really went in there to kind of record a couple songs for his birthday, and it just kind of happens, you know? Ronnie  11:00  It's very heartfelt to hear. And you could tell that that's important to you. And it's rare. My parents when it came to music were they're always supportive of music. But I think that getting back into it would have been tough, a tough sell. That's pretty noble that he feels that he wants you to be involved in that. Matt York  11:19  Yeah. And I think I mean, I, you know, I kind of went, I got away from music and was able to kind of, I have a regular job and I have a wife and kids and I have a mortgage and you know, I mean, I'm able to kind of balance the two things by not sleeping a hell of a lot, I guess. Chuck Clough  11:35  But what do you do for Matt York  11:36  it's a complicated job Chuck, but I worked for sprint.I worked for sprint, but I work I work in a fraud investigator. So I will stay companies that sell our product and try to defraud us and try to identify that and take action. Chuck Clough  11:53  That's pretty cool Matt York  11:55  Yeah, and I work from home so I'm able to kind of sit on my couch and do that and Chuck  12:00  Do undercover stuff and like, you know, it's more finance driven and kind of it's more spreadsheets and Chuck Clough  12:09  you know, I have a friend I went I grew up with actually he works for the FBI. Is that right? Yeah. Matt York  12:15  A few years ago, I was a licensed private investigator, but I let it lapse. So really, yeah, like somehow if you had been an investigator as long as I've been you qualified, and I went, and it was like so lame. I thought it was gonna be like a badge and they gave me like this Xerox piece of paper. Yeah, it was like faded and Chuck Clough  12:31  did you ever get into the the Spencer for hire books or ever be part? Matt York  12:34  Yeah, so I grew up like I loved Hawk. Chuck Clough  12:36  Yeah. And those are my books. I love I read every single one of those books. Yep. You read those books? No, Robert be Parker. Spencer for hire him a TV show. Ronnie  12:46  That's all I remember. Chuck  12:47  Based upon those books. Yeah, but the books were better. Yes. Ronnie  12:51  Maybe they can sponsor this podcast. This is this is Matt York  12:55  Yeah, we're merging with T Mobile. So Amanda, where are you? Really? Yeah. Chuck Clough  12:59  Is that Is that inside information? No, no, that's like, really? Matt York  13:06  I'm not smart enough to know, Ronnie  13:08  what type of fraud we talking about. Chuck Clough  13:09  And have you written a song about this? Ronnie  13:11  Let me answer the first question first. So yeah, is there a song about it? No, Chuck  13:16  my question was much better about it, right? Yes. But that my question was much better than your question. What would I say? You asked him. I like him about what he does for Ronnie  13:25  Well, I think it's interesting. I mean, like, I've never met anybody that does it. But your songs are a little deeper than that. They are. They're not just about iPhone fraud. No, you know, what i what i was taken by was some of the recent stuff you did the addiction song. It's not called that and you're going to tell me in a second what that is. But there's a few on the album, but I lost my baby to the needle to the needle, right? Yep. you put a couple stats on there that are very sobering not to give upon, but that 72,000 people died in 2017. Yeah, we had actually talked about that on an episode we did write music and recovery Matt York  14:32  somebody I think, in fact, I think that's how we reconnected because I forget who it was that you had on was the Maureen Cavenaugh, Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. The woman that's in the video for the last Yeah. She's very close with Maureen and really very responsible for Ronnie  14:46  because they're real people. Matt York  14:47  Yeah, so the people in the video are in both in recovery and they both run sober homes and there are a couple themselves now to me. Ronnie  14:55  That's amazing, because I think I saw it in Jed's article or was it Jed Gottlieb or something? Nobody wrote an article on you. Yep, that was really interesting. Because, you know, you can have these messages that are like really poignant. Yeah, about something as powerful as opiates and addiction, but at the same time, like you always think they're actors. And yeah, these people are like, a real real going through this real start how therapeutic it might, it must have been. I don't know. It was in the middle of that. Matt York  15:22  So a couple things is it was really funny because we literally met them in front of an Nantasket , the beach there. It was, like November. It's freezing cold in the morning. We met them in a parking lot. We spent maybe an hour and a half with them, and we've never seen them again. But we suddenly kind of created this thing together and that's evergreen. Yeah, totally. And you know, I sent them the song I actually just like put like a Craigslist I sent it a couple different spots trying to find people. And she the girl in the videos sent me the email saying listen, this I'm the person to do this. She had no acting experience. Right and I don't drink but my dad joined a when I was about eight, nine years old and, and he would take me to a meetings. So when I was like eight or nine I'd be hearing these people get up and tell these stories that I was like holy shit like Drinking crazy, right. And so I was kind of always aware of it. And, you know, I drank a little bit when I was in my 20s. But I was never a big drinker and ever, but I was, you know, if you do music long enough, you see this stuff, you know, you see addiction in all different forms. So the album that I put out before this was really about alcoholism, and just kind of having been away from the clubs for so long. And then going back in like, Oh, my God, like, I forgot how crazy this? Yes, yeah, every day, we recorded probably seven or eight songs that are really about addiction in that world. It's not a happy album by any stretch. But Chuck Clough  16:48  no, but I mean, you know, the thing is when you write when you go out to write songs about such a powerful topic, it can sometimes be contrived.You know, it's like the trying too hard to be, you know, to make this story into this song. I make one. Matt York  17:07  Just say one thing you said about how contrived. So I spent a lot of years away from music and literally years where I didn't pick up a guitar at all. Yeah. And my wife and kids and I were at the finish line during the marathon bombing. Yeah, we were able to kind of get out of there. And our kids were young, and whatever. That was six, six years ago.Again, and I remember, like, I went home, and like, within two or three days, I had a song about it like it all of a sudden, it just came out, you know, and it was such an interesting thing. And I had been away from music and Randy, who runs at woods and used to run TT to bears years ago. She was running Johnny DS at the time, and I was like, Listen, Randy, I don't do music anymore. I see you're doing a benefit. And I'd love to just come and play a couple. I want to play this song. So she was awesome. And let me do it. You know, it's kind of like the one time I started that I kind of came out and played in it. You know, I've never released it or recorded it or anything, butWas it made me realize I could still do it if I wanted to? Yeah. And Ronnie  18:05  so that was the trigger actually that part of it rushed back into music. Yep. Well, that's a powerful terrible thing that you know, it's always amazing to hear some of the little the silver lining come out of some of these awful things. Yeah, you know what I like about Matt's music is also the the harmonies that are double in some of the doubling that you do in the production of it. But I love the effect. I've always loved the effect in rock and and pop and others, similar genres. You connect the same melody and unison. Yeah. And the effect that that gives is really, it could be haunting, but it could also just be very cerebral and is very soothing. Is that something that you experimented with one day and said You liked it? Or have you always come from? Matt York  18:52  Well, it's funny because when I was younger, and I had a noisier band, we were just a three piece. There was no one else in my band that could sing So there really weren't harmonies in it. And then when I came back and started doing this, I didn't have anybody else to sing them. You know, like I was in the studio there was nobody else with me I was pretty much doing all the instruments. So I just kind of experimented with doing it myself and I would have preferred honestly to have had someone else do it. The album I did before this one I did with Dave Brophy, who's will Bailey's drummer and the Ruby Rose Fox album and he's done a bunch of stuff and so he and I have worked together on some of the harmonies I think, I can't remember he may have sang some of them actually, I love doing it and this is double though to you don't just do harmonies? Yeah, it's double vocal us in a lot of times. I'll split the harmony in parts. Yeah, yeah. No. And then it comes back to a unison Yeah, right. And then it's funny when I do them live because when I just have the one voice like it's, it's almost like you have two different melodies to choose from. Chuck Clough  19:49  So depending on how strong your voices at night, you can choose the lower one. Matt York  19:51  Yeah, exactly. I'm on the fourth night in a row then I'm going love the feeling. Chuck Clough  19:56  Yeah, you know, I always love to do this, but the whole Oh you sound like so and so. But and especially with I need my can reduce my readers. Ronnie  20:08  Those new again. Chuck Clough  20:09  Do you like them? Ronnie  20:10  You get new glasses every week? Chuck  20:11  Oh no cause I lose them. That's why I lose them and I Ronnie  20:15  just lost the $80 pair that you paid last night Chuck Clough  20:17  I lost these exact pair. Ronnie  20:19  No, they were tortoise shell type. Chuck Clough  20:21  That's what I have. I have those still. Ronnie  20:24  Those are great. Those last ones. Yeah. Glad you didn't lose those. Chuck Clough  20:27  I have those. Ronnie  20:28  But I really liked those and you look good in them. Chuck Clough  20:30  You don't like these? Ronnie  20:31  No. Chuck Clough  20:31  Why not? Ronnie  20:32  I don't like it as much as the other ones. Those are okay. Chuck Clough  20:35  Well, this is my Clark Kent. What do you think, Joe? No. Matt, what do you think? Matt York  20:40  I thought they looked fun. I'm not gonna lie. Ronnie  20:43  I think you're fine too. But the other ones he's he looks great. Like, yeah, Chuck Clough  20:47  so the Ronnie  20:49  know who he sounds like. Chuck Clough  20:51  Steve Earle, man, you've got that, especially especially that song a Permanent Crush. I really heard Steve It's almost sounds like a first take of whatever song you saying. It's just very natural True, which is what I reminds me of Steve. Oh, it's very raw that Matt York  22:03  Yeah, so I had never listened to him when I was younger. And then I found him maybe 20 years ago. And I was like, wait, well, how did I miss? Yeah, I know I missed on. I didn't get into late recently to like that I missed him. Chuck  22:15  But it's not even. It's not even just the voice which you know, you can kind of get that low register voice too. But it's also the guitar playing it's the entire song. And not only that, there was also the other side actually in a previous album on my own. Yeah. Was it was it Boston, Texas. Is that the one or no? No. Between the Bars between the bar Yeah, yep. That was like a little little Elliott Smith in there, too. I don't know if you know Elliott Smith. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but yeah, between the bars.Between the bars, Michael, I wonder if you did a cover. Matt York  22:44  I thought it was so clever. And then Chuck Clough  22:47  afterwards, but no, no, you know, Elliott Smith. Yeah, yeah. So I'm not well, he's a song calledbetween the bars, I guess you would say so I thought there was a reference to that bus. Different reference. Matt York  22:58  Yeah, it was just coincidence though, that I stole it by accident. Chuck Clough  23:01  He was such an influence on me. Yeah, he died. He was such a frickin talent. Yeah. Such a talent. Ronnie  23:13  So what is the story with Boston, Texas? So I'm just curious if it's not a town in Texas, right? Yeah, there is. Matt York  23:19  There is a tiny little town called Austin, Texas. But so when I was a kid, when I was about 10, we moved to Texas. We've grown up in Boston, and we moved to Texas as a family for about a year when I was down there briefly, I kind of got hints of, you know, back then there was no rock'n'roll music down there. And there was no country music back here. So, you know, I would start to hear like Willie and Waylon and people who I was, I was too young to know, but I just kind of would hear these influences. And then so as I got older and started writing, I kind of found that Boston music was was what I love the most. But I kept coming back to these kind of texts, influences kept kind of pulling on my songwriting like Steve Earle. And you know Townes, Van Zandt. People like that Billy Joe shaver so the songs that on that first album that Boston tech Selma really just kind of a mishmash. Yeah, Boston and Texas in Ronnie  24:08  that town is kind of very indicative of like that your whole experience with this song. September, Matt York  24:15  September is coming soon. Yep. Ronnie  25:00  It's one it's my it's my favorite month it's a tough month is some deaths in our in our my friends and family. But there's also some birthdays and some amazing celebrations too. Yep. So September is the start of school and just something about the, like just coming to America. Yeah. And actually I'm Jewish. So it's like, you know, Russia, China is the new year of September in October. Yep. And you celebrate the new year for that. Matt York  25:23  I feel like I'm a pretty normal person. Like I'm not a depressed person. I'm not an alcoholic. I don't have any of these types of issues. But I write about those things September's coming soon to me, just always many people are affected by the summer ending, especially here in New England, where you just prepare for kind of shutting down, you know, being stuck in the indoors for a few months. And Ronnie  25:45  I think it's a rebirth. Yeah, I like the weather too. Yep. I don't think his summer is that great. I mean, I think it's sometimes too hot. You know, like Chuck, don't you like like that make it start making that fire. Chuck  25:55  If I go on vacation in the summer, even if it's like for three days, like June I'm done. I'm done. I'm ready for fall so yeah falls in lov e the smell of like, yeah the smell the wood burning and and you wrote a song about that bring on the winter I did Yes, yes. Ronnie  26:13  he went past September and he wrote a song about bringing on the winter so you want Chuck Clough  26:17  I mean, I liked the winter but that was just really kind of I was looking for something that rhymed with splinter. I don't know. Ronnie  26:26  Sorry to Bring up the weather. But you know, I just like that freakin song. Chuck Clough  26:29  When you got back into playing music Did you get back into playing solo and doing acoustic guitar not getting back into a band? for a specific reason? Was it literally just now it's just gonna be easier to play by me. That's what I did. I mean, it was easier for me to play by myself. Pick up an acoustic guitar and try and get a band back together with two small kids, right? Matt York  26:46  Yeah, almost all of them I play solo. And if I had a bunch of guys that I was friends with that could just at the drop of a hat, play for next to nothing and just show up and be awesome. I would do that. I just don't you know, and so I mean, I Live on the south shore, my drummer lives in Manchester, New Hampshire, you know, so it's like, we're lucky to have a rehearsal before we play a gig. And I like to travel and obviously traveling on the road when you know, you're probably gonna lose money anyway. Yeah, to bring a band just ensures that you're not only going to lose money, but you're going to be very uncomfortable probably on the road, Chuck Clough  27:21  getting back into, or even starting for the first time being a solo artist. Yep. What was the most challenging thing for you? Because I started doing it myself. It was a learning experience trying to figure out where my strengths were. Yep. What did you do improve on, and plus my voice. And playing has changed since I was a kid, and especially my voice. Matt York  27:39  I don't have the higher range that I have when I was younger. But I was a big smoker when I was younger, and I don't smoke. So like I was just down in Nashville last week, and I did like four nights in a row. But that fourth night, I feel a little pull on my voice. But I feel like almost every time now I can go out and I'm going to give the same level of performance every time. So control to Ronnie  28:00  I've always been a piano player mostly and it's like I'm not going to lug around a piano and do a solo thing but I've always envied someone with it, you know a good command of their guitar and then they match their vocal to the chord the rhythm they're reading off the audience and Matt York  28:16  that's the biggest thing showing up in playing gigs and not knowing exactly what the audience is going to be especially like I opened up for a lot of national Acts where I joke all the time when I do that that I'm like there to just be like a good appetizer right you know like I'm if I'm a quality like clam chowder a buffalo wings to them then great right they're not there to see me they're there to have steak sometimes I'll come out and just based on the audience I can feel like you know I can do the kind of the listening room tender sad songs thing or they want more of an upbeat warm up and yeah, warm up the evening the ability to kind of just be solo and change on like, I don't write setlist I just will go out there and transition if I yeah. Ronnie  28:56  Well, do you find that like there's a part of you thatfeels that if someone's getting filled up on their clam chowder, they're going to taste it. It's going to be good. But if they if they find that they're like they don't need as much steak, because they filled up on the clam chowder, that's a goal of yours. Chuck Clough  29:13  This is right up Ron's alley. This whole food analogy. Yeah, he does this. Yes. With the ingredients. And the recipe. You're all you do all that. Ronnie  29:22  I think the fact that Matt came up with that analogy, Chuck Clough  29:25  I'm just saying it's right up your alley. You dont have to get defensive Ronnie  29:28  No, no, I'm not am I? Matt York  30:16  Well, you had Carissa Johnson on here at one point. We did yeah, rocks, man. She's insane. So we did the rumble together a few years ago and we played a few gigs together. That was when she won a couple years ago. I was in my band was in it that year. So I did the rumble in 2000. I did it in 2017. And oh, wow, really crazy. And Jed Gottlieb actually wrote this article with me and two or three others that had had this giant gap. Yeah, and yeah, what was crazy to me is when I think back, I was probably 20, early 20s. When I did it back then, the entire club was not only packed but it was packed with people in their early 20s. Oh, yeah. When I played it two years ago. Chuck Clough  30:57  These with you? Yeah. Matt York  31:00  like none you know and and even Krista who is that age? Yeah her fans Aren't you know i mean the show but they're telling that's it yeah they're people that love that Boston punk music that CO yeah she she's doing what we love, but it's not like you know a club full of 22 year olds You know, Chuck Clough  31:18  you're excited about your CD release I am and this came out just what August 4, right? It's just released. Matt York  31:24  Yeah. Yeah went up on Spotify. I think right around the time I wasn't sure what I was going to do for an actual release and that kind of fell in place to do the lizard Okay. Oh, Chuck  31:33  who's opening for you? Matt York  31:34  So we're actually starting the night because all of my friends are so old that I was like put us on early because Okay, the band old jack does they do a residency the last Saturday of every month so you opening for them? So they Yeah, they're playing in the middle slot and in a band called The I want your headline? The I want you I like those guys. Yeah, so that's good. That's cool. That's great. I ain't going to be my high school. 30th Reunion. Chuck Clough  31:56  Are you allowed back Ronnie  31:58  What's it? Yes, I am loud. Butyou're gonna have your CDs out. And like an actual CD release physical artifact, I will give you a physical CD. And then do you do you have like downloads and stuff like that or how does that work? Yeah, so usually Chuck Clough  32:13  you new to this music business right now Ronnie  32:15  I'm wondering what Matt is, Matt York  32:17  what I usually do is, uh, you know, I sell t shirts and then I'll give a download code or I'll give a CD and I'm gonna download card with it. So I sell more t shirts Chuck Clough  32:26  Do you ever do  vinyl. Matt York  32:27  I just don't have enough people I care about the make it I can't justify the upfront costs, Chuck Clough  32:34  you know, we have an album that we're waiting to get out for dead. And I want even if I do like, hundred pressing Yeah. So you thinking you want to do vinyl? Well, just like 100 friends you're having to be expensive, but it'll just be something to have. I'm never going to put an album out like IL So why don't we do that? We should. Ronnie  32:52  Alright, so back to Matt. So Matt York  32:53  So can I just get one final thing? Yeah, so I was not this last time but one of the times I was down in Nashville, I went into jack White's thing. Unknown Speaker  33:00  Man, he's got that that that little like phone booth where you can record in and then it automatically produces a vinyl. Right? Neil Young made an album that way and stuff. little teeny vinyl. Within like an hour. Like no was like within five minutes like what just makes it it presses i Chuck  33:16  is it? 33 and a half 33 1/3? Matt York  33:18  No, it's like it's like a 4045 not a Ronnie  33:21  45 but the Chuck Clough  33:21  78? Matt York  33:23  I don't even know what it is. Ronnie  33:24  It's a 62 Chuck  33:26  Well, it's got to be either 4578 or 33. Matt York  33:28  So I will send you I will text Ronnie  33:31  because you got to play it in your variable, but it's actually it's just it's a record. Yeah, Chuck  33:35  but you want to be able to listen to it so that Matt York  33:37  so I haven't been able to figure out how to listen to it on my record player, but I have friends. That is funny. No one can listen. No, Chuck Clough  33:43  but that's it's got to be one of those three. He wouldn't just make up. Yeah, Matt York  33:47  I'm sure it is. I just don't remember but well, we actually do young jack white went on I think Jimmy Fallon or Kimball and they brought the machine on the Ronnie  34:00  Fallon that's a Fallon thing. Matt York  34:01  Yeah, I'll send you the link to it. I have watched it but you have like two minutes and 20 seconds and then the machine shuts off. Like Chuck Clough  34:09  there's only one side to it. Yep. Unknown Speaker  34:11  That's so cool, man. Thank you for doing this. Chuck Clough  34:15  With us, and you play us a couple songs would be happening right. Cool. Hold on a second for a second. Yeah Unknown Speaker  40:07  We would like to thank Matt for his support of ATB over the years and for sitting with us you can check out Matt's music and get his latest album at Matt York music. com You should also check out the great food at Adelaide is in West Concord, Massachusetts Adelina is an organic and authentic Mexican restaurant brought to you from the team behind Woods Hill table much like their sister restaurant Adelina is pastured a plate serving only grass fed and organic meats from their own farm, the farm at Woods Hill for more information and for reservations, go to Adelaide a conquered.com. And one last plug for you to vote for a TB podcast of the year at the Boston Music Awards. Please go to Boston Music Awards. com forward slash vote and make your voice heard. Thank you very much. Finally, please go to above the basement calm where you can sign up for our newsletter. Listen and subscribe to our podcast later.\our Facebook page, follow us on Twitter and look at all the nice pictures we post on Instagram. We are everywhere. On behalf of Ronnie and myself. Thanks for listening. Tell your friends and remember Boston music like its history is unique. Transcribed by https://otter.ai 

In today's episode, host Jerrid Kalakay takes us on a journey into the concept of balance and how it applies to his life. Is balance possible? We have all heard the phrase "work/life balance," and is it possible what other types of balance do we truly need for the long-term. Jerrid proposes thinking about balance as different seasons and what is necessary for our lives for each season. Transcript Jerrid Kalakay 0:09 Welcome to the Teaching Change podcast, where we explore issues social entrepreneurship, education, and innovation. I'm your host, Jerrid Kalakay. So in today's episode, we're going to be talking about finding balance. What does that mean? How does someone go about finding balance? And is it even possible? So on a previous episode, we talked about basically recharging your batteries, and understanding the need to restore oneself to stay in the game for the long haul. And the finding balance everyone talks about work-life balance.Jerrid Kalakay 0:46 Is that a real existence? Is that even possible? You know, the thing that's difficult about finding balance is what are you finding balance with? So a lot of times people talk about their personal lifeJerrid Kalakay 0:59 and theJerrid Kalakay 1:00 Their work-life, you know, and then balancing the two or balancing one's family life with their friends' life, or balancing your work life with your family, friends, personal growth, all those kinds of things.Jerrid Kalakay 1:18 I think it's a work in progress for pretty much everyone I don't know if anyone has would say, honestly, they found complete balance because it's, it's an ever-moving target, right?Jerrid Kalakay 1:31 You feel like you're doing pretty well. And then you get thrown a curveball.Jerrid Kalakay 1:37 You feel like you're on top of the world, and then all of a sudden you backslide, or tumble down the front of the hill, all the way down to the bottom. And so it's kind of a constant struggle, a continuous battle to try to figure out where is your balance and where can it be I know for me in my life as a professor as a social entrepreneur.Jerrid Kalakay 2:00 As a father, as a husband, as a son balance is ever elusive, many times, I'm trying to continually figure out what's the right amount of work to put in here, whether it be in my personal life or whether it be in my work life, whether it be my, my academic life, so forth and so on. And I think that it's probably a healthy conversation to have with yourself, not only with yourself but also with your family, with your friends, if you have a partner, so forth to really try to figure out what, what right now and this exact stage of my life, what does balance look like? What could balance look like?Jerrid Kalakay 2:41 And I don't know if it's, I don't think it's going to be a perfectly balanced thing. Like I'm looking, I'm thinking about a seesaw, you know, and I'm, I'm looking for, you know, what point is a seesaw utterly horizontal with the ground. Very rarely have I ever in my life and all the playgrounds that I've taken my kidsJerrid Kalakay 3:00 too, and probably all the playgrounds I've ever gone to as a child myself, have I ever seen a seesaw exactly horizontal with the ground?Jerrid Kalakay 3:10 And so using that as a metaphor for life, is it possible to have a perfectly balanced life to have your work? Have your academics or your extracurricular activities, your clubs, your organizations, the things you do on the weekends, your family? All the requirements that go along with with having a family and so forth is is it ever going to be a possibility that it's going to be perfectly balanced?Jerrid Kalakay 3:39 I don't think so. I think the answer to that question is no. And the reason why I say that is because I believe at certain times, it naturally should not be in balance ultimately, right. You've got a deadline and work, and so that's probably going to, you know, coming up that's going to be it's going to take a little bit more energy from you.Jerrid Kalakay 3:57 One of your children gets sick if you are fortunate.Jerrid Kalakay 4:00 have to have kids, or we know one of your dogs or animals get sick or your partner gets sick, or you get sick, then you know, obviously that's going to take energy away from your work.Jerrid Kalakay 4:12 If you're pursuing if you're on a softball league or you're in a bowling league, or you know anything like that, if something goes wrong with that, and you're having a tough season or tough go of it, that might take more energy to try to try to remedy that situation try to get better at whatever it is you're trying to do. Right. And so I think it's natural to kind of oscillate between projects and activities and things that you're doing. And not necessarily be super caught up with everything has to be 5050, you know, exactly even across the board or 3333 33 and don't forget about the third and each one of those.Jerrid Kalakay 4:50 That's probably not a healthy way to do things. I think a much more robust is to realize that with each season, different things are going to be taking our energy andJerrid Kalakay 5:00 Our focus and so what we need to do, and what I need to do more telling myself than I am, my listeners are, is to realize that every season requires different things from us and that we need to be able to focus on those things and not feel guilty aboutJerrid Kalakay 5:20 that, and then paying more attention to one thing over another,Jerrid Kalakay 5:25 You know, realizing that the season will pass and that there'll be a new season and the new season will require something different from us. I think that's what right balances. I think, in the end. That's what we really matter. You know, what do we spend our time doing, and how we do it on a day to day basis is essential. But I think in the long run, it's much more critical that we're in balance.Jerrid Kalakay 5:50 On the long haul, you know, the long term for short term, so many things in this world, come down to the long time versus short time, you know, what can we get done now in the short termJerrid Kalakay 6:00 You know, whatever that looks like, that's a day, a week, 30 days, 90 days a quarter, or whatever it might be, versus the long term, you know, what, what will matter a year from now, what will matter two years from now or four years from now?Jerrid Kalakay 6:15 The short term versus long term folds into the seasons, and that concept I was talking about earlier with trying to figure out what the season of now is, and how you can find balance overall in those seasons. You know, with this being said, you know, I'm not advocating that anyone forget that they have a family for six months to get a project done at work. That's not what I'm saying. That probably wouldn't Bode very well for you, or your family, for that matter. Likewise, I'm not saying that suggesting that you forget about the fact that you have to go to work from you know, nine to five or whatever you whatever your work looks like because you know, something's going on in your personal life.Jerrid Kalakay 6:58 But rather, maybe thisJerrid Kalakay 7:00 It's a day or two that you need to spend in the office only and not worrying about other things. And perhaps or maybe the exact opposite is a day or two or so that you need to spend away from the office and not worrying about anything but your personal life or your family life. And being honest with yourself, and being honest with those around you, both your employer or the folks you work with, and also your family about kind of where you are, I think is right. And I think that's a healthy scenario. I think a lot of times people try to deal mainly, men that I know, myself included, try to deal with everything on their own. I know I get caught in that often. Where I'm trying to deal with things entirely by myself, you know, if I, if I'm not able to do this and work, then people will think less of me they will need they won't think I'm as productive. They won't think I'm as good as I would like them to, you know if I can't deal with something in my personal life and my family life. You know,Jerrid Kalakay 8:00 Well, what would that mean? So I mean, I'm not a good husband, I'm not a good father, I'm not a good son, so forth these all these kind of negative concepts, negative thoughts, that kind of go could go and permeate our mindsJerrid Kalakay 8:16 Exists when we're trying to find a balance that may not be exactly possible. But when we're open and we're honest with the people that are in our lives, whether they be employees, employers, people we work with in general, our families, our friends, about where we are and what season we believe we are in and kind of what's on our plate. I think that we will more easily find balance in our own lives and in doing so will be much more successful on all fronts. And so, I'm inquisitive I'm interested in finding out from you all as, as my listeners as our listeners.Jerrid Kalakay 9:00 What do you see balance? As? Do you believe finding balance is possible? What is finding balance mean to you? You know, one of the things that I grew up on as a professional in higher education was taught was in graduate school andJerrid Kalakay 9:20 in graduate school at Florida State University in their higher ed program shut out to FSUJerrid Kalakay 9:26 Not doing so well in football, but that's okay. They're still doing well in the classroom. So good, good, good going. But in Tallahassee, Florida, Florida State, I will I went there for my Master's in science in higher education. And one of the very first things one of my professors talked about was finding work-life balance, and how can we do that as professionals, and I remember thinking as a 20, something-year-old and a professional preparation program toJerrid Kalakay 10:00 To work as a professional at an at a, you know, university or college, and we're thinking, wow, you know, the, that's probably not that big of a deal. Like I don't need to worry about finding balance because I'm just going to go out and I'm going to do the best job I could do. And I want to make a name for myself this in this field of higher education.Jerrid Kalakay 10:20 And I dismissed it all. And I think a lot of my classmates did as well. I don't believe that any of us focus the time and energy that we needed to on having a conversation with ourselves about what that could look like. And I think partly because it's all in the abstract.Jerrid Kalakay 10:37 You know, when you start to think about what your life is going to be after x or after y,Jerrid Kalakay 10:45 whatever those x's and y's are, whether they're the graduate program, law school, medical school, college in general, after you get married, you buy your house, you you know, whatever, whatever those X & Y's are you, you start to thinkJerrid Kalakay 11:00 Somewhat intellectually about what that's going to be like, but you don't know what it is. It's all in the abstract. Right? You never you don't know what it's like being a parent until you become a parent if you happen to be fortunate enough to do that, you don't know it's like to get married until you get married. Right if you're lucky enough to do that, you don't know what it's like to buy a car house, you know, so forth like you, you know what it is intellectually, but fully, you don't have any idea. So it's the same. It was the same thing for me when I heard about the work-life balance in graduate school. And it wasn't until many years into my professional life,Jerrid Kalakay 11:38 that I start to realize that I needed to take some time for myself and my relationship.Jerrid Kalakay 11:46 And for my partner and for, for our life together and so forth. And it was a long, hard roadJerrid Kalakay 11:55 and lesson for me to learn because what I was basicallyJerrid Kalakay 12:00 Doing is I was trying to make the most significant impact in my professional life as possible. And so, you know, eight 910 15 hours a day, you know, working during the day and then going to events in the afternoon in the afternoon or evening for workJerrid Kalakay 12:22 was perfectlyJerrid Kalakay 12:25 Perfectly acceptable, not only accept the Buddha is encouraged. So I would work, you know, my nine to five, and thenJerrid Kalakay 12:33 I worked in campus activities, so I put up to put on events and concerts and different things, which is a lot of fun. But it also still works. And so I would get home at you know, midnight, or one o'clock in the morning sometimes. And I did this pretty extensively for the Liesl first, on a three-four. If you asked my wife probably ten years of my professional lifeJerrid Kalakay 13:00 I what I did in that is yes, I've made somewhat a name for myself at some level.Jerrid Kalakay 13:07 But in doing that, I also neglected a lot of things I neglected myself my well being, and I neglected my relationship, I neglected my life outside of my work completely.Jerrid Kalakay 13:25 And in the long run, that will never work. In the short term, it might have worked well in a particular focused area, but it won't work in the long run. And I and I still have a lot of colleaguesJerrid Kalakay 13:38 Who I knew from that time, that that seem to be still doing that same thing or the seem to be still trapped in that same rat race. So I encourage you to think about, you know, what, what does balance look like for your life? What season Are you in? have that balance, you know, where do you think you need more excellent stability? Where do you think youJerrid Kalakay 14:00 Let's balance. Do you feel like you're in pursuit of that, that balance for yourself? And I would, and I would argue that and ask you is if you don't feel balanced, do you feel rewarded by that imbalance or you burdened by that imbalance?Jerrid Kalakay 14:24 And that's pretty it's a pretty profound concept. So do you feel rewarded by that unbalanced? So if you are,Jerrid Kalakay 14:31 whether it be in work or your personal life, are you getting the rewards wherever they may be for that imbalance or are you being penalized or you beingJerrid Kalakay 14:43 Martyred or hurt by that imbalance? And realize that whether you're being rewarded or whether that imbalance is punishing you that the pendulum Chloe swing the other way,Jerrid Kalakay 14:57 that your reward today could be a punishment tomorrow.Jerrid Kalakay 15:00 vice versa.Jerrid Kalakay 15:02 And the pendulum swings. Like I said both ways, the door swings both ways the pendulum swings both ways, whatever metaphor you want to use. So what we're rewarded for today might be what we're punished for tomorrow.Jerrid Kalakay 15:16 And that's something that we all have to deal with, and we have to think about it. And so I would, I would encourage you to think about where's your balance? And where can your balance take you? And what does that look like? For social entrepreneurs for social innovators, balance is a really, really, really important concept. Because of balancing the the triple bottom line that people profit planets, they're they're balancing the social value creation, the doing well in the world, with the profit and the profit-taking models, the revenue, and so there's a lot of balance to be found in that there's a balance of the storytelling. How muchJerrid Kalakay 16:00 How much of the story do you tell versus how much of the money do you try to make? You know, and realizing that you as one individual, as a social entrepreneur, social innovator can't do everything all at once? Right? You've got to build a team. Again, that is balanced. And soJerrid Kalakay 16:18 What does that look like in each one of your lives? I encourage you to spend some time this next week, thinking about that, analyzing that figuring that out. And then I will we will talk next time.Jerrid Kalakay 16:34 Thank you for helping me kind of figure out some of my balance. This is an I have not done a single show. Just by myself in a while, I've had only guests on, and this week, I thought that we would like that I would analyze balance a little bit with you all, just as Jerrid Kalakay not as Jerrid Kalakay interviewing someone so I appreciate it. Hopefully, you enjoyed this episode.Jerrid Kalakay 17:00 Your listenership, you probably noticed that we'd redone our website we've redone Teaching Change podcast calm. We've also rebranded some of our stuff for our third season, which debuted last week.Jerrid Kalakay 17:15 Appreciate and honor your journey with us, and if you dig our podcasts you dig the show, please leave us a review on iTunes or Stitcher, or the highest compliment would be to share us with one of your friends. Till next time, be nice and change some stuff 

More words, better words, in less time? Sometimes. In this episode, finding your own path to write faster.If only we could write as fast as we type! You could set your clock by our book production, right? Not so. This week we’re exploring how to write faster with Sarina in the lead. Finding your own patterns, prewriting and avoiding that “stuck” feeling by finding tangible ways to explore your characters and book without doing battle with words dominate our conversation as we riff on ways to up our daily word counts without ending up with something that’s destined for the cutting room floor file. Episode links and a transcript follow—but first, a preview of the #WritersTopFive that will be dropping into #AmWriting supporter inboxes on Monday, September 30, 2019: Top Five Reasons to Be on Instagram. Not joined that club yet? You’ll want to get on that. Support the podcast you love AND get weekly #WriterTopFives with actionable advice you can use for just $7 a month. As always, this episode (and every episode) will appear for all subscribers in your usual podcast listening places, totally free as the #AmWriting Podcast has always been. This shownotes email is free, too, so please—forward it to a friend, and if you haven’t already, join our email list and be on top of it with the shownotes and a transcript every time there’s a new episode. To support the podcast and help it stay free, subscribe to our weekly #WritersTopFive email.LINKS FROM THE PODCAST2k to 10k: Writing Faster, Writing Better, and Writing More of What You Love, Rachel Aaron#AmReading (Watching, Listening)Jess: She Said: Breaking the Sexual Harassment Story That Helped Ignite a Movement Jodi Kantor, Meghan TwoheyKJ: Podcasts for book recommendations: What Should I Read Next? with Anne Bogel and Get Booked, from BookRiotSarina: 100 Deadly Skills: The SEAL Operative’s Guide to Eluding Pursuers, Evading Capture, and Surviving Any Dangerous Situation, Clint Emerson#FaveIndieBookstore NEWSJenny Lawson, author of You Are Here, Let’s Pretend This Never Happened, and Furiously Happy, will be opening Nowhere Books in San Antonio with the former GM of Book People. We love it when a new indie is born. This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwritingfor details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.The image in our podcast illustration is by Jordan on Unsplash.Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)KJ:                                        00:01                    Hey writers, are you whispering to yourself that this might just be your year to make NaNoWriMo happen? Or maybe planning to do it again? Then, do yourself a favor and invest in Author Accelerator's Inside Outline coaching now, so that you've got a structure to free you up to use those 30 days in November to write something that really works. It is no fun to 'win' NaNoWriMo with 56,000 words and then realize 35,000 of them don't serve your story at all. Trust me, I speak from experience. The Inside Outline really works. Find out more at authoraccelerator.com/insideoutline.Jess:                                     00:36                    Go ahead.KJ:                                        00:36                    This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I was supposed to be doing.Jess:                                     00:36                    All right, let's start over.KJ:                                        00:36                    Awkward pause, I'm going to rustle some papers.Jess:                                     00:36                    Okay.KJ:                                        00:36                    Now one, two, three. I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting. #AmWriting is the podcast, your podcast we hope, about writing all the things, short things, long things, fiction, nonfiction, genre, new and creative genre, proposals, pitches, emails to potential agents. This is the podcast about sitting down and getting your work done.Jess:                                     01:26                    And I'm Jess Lahey. I am the author of the Gift of Failure and an upcoming book about substance abuse in kids. And I think I'm on like day 31 until my deadline, so I'm completely insane. You can also find my most recent work that I'm super excited about The Smarter Living Guide to How to Help Your Kids Succeed in School This Year, which was super fun to write. And my first foray into the guides at the New York Times.Sarina:                                 01:53                    I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of several USA today bestselling romance novels and my newest one will be called Moonlighter coming on October 22.KJ:                                        02:04                    And I am KJ Dell'Antonia. I am the former lead editor of the New York Times Motherlode blog, the author of the book How to Be a Happier Parent and of a novel forthcoming from GP Putnam and Sons next summer about which you'll just be hearing so much later. And now that we are providing (by email) show notes every week, I'm going to invite everybody, first of all, to head over to our website and sign up so you can get the show notes and consider supporting us by signing up for the #Writer'sTopFive emails. But the real reason that I wanted to bring that up, is that every time Jess introduces herself on the artificial intelligence transcript app that we use to start out before our lovely assistant Marisa goes through and makes it all much, much, much better it says, I'm just lucky. I thought that was glorious. All right, we have a great topic today. Sarina, kick us off.Sarina:                                 03:16                    Today we're talking about writing faster, which of course you know is an art and a science. Jess laughs because she's up against her deadline, but the truth is...Jess:                                     03:29                    Jess laughs cause she's losing her mind. And KJ texted yesterday something about the fact that you just can't get as much done in a day as you think that you can get done in a day. And that's my life right now.KJ:                                        03:44                    Before we talk about writing faster, which I think is doable and there are strategies and I can't wait to hear them. I just want to say that I'm having two struggles this week. And one is that - I just can't do as much in a day as I think I can. You'd think I'd know that by now, but I don't. And the other is that I also can't make all the people happy. So yeah, apparently I have learned nothing in my life because I'm still trying.Jess:                                     04:15                    Well your book was not called How to Make Everybody Happy, it's just how to be a happier parent. So how are we going to write faster? Someone give me the keys to this car. How do we write faster?Sarina:                                 04:59                    I came about this topic listening to lots of fiction authors (because that's mostly who I'm talking to during a week) talk about how to write faster. And every once in awhile, a so-called friend of mine will post, 'I wrote 11,000 words today.' And I will feel nothing but rage, because I have never once written 11,000 words in a day and never will and that's fine. But it really got me thinking about why is my pace, my pace? And what does it mean about my habits that has brought me here? And is there any way for me to increase that pace? So my average pace, like on a longterm basis, is about 1200 words a day. And that is up from about a thousand words a day. And so some people would look at my pace and say that I was flying, right, because 1200 words a day, you can on average write four books a year. But to someone else, that pace is like turtle pace and what the heck is wrong with me? So, this discussion is really more about writing faster for you and not becoming a speed demon. Because I don't actually want to write 11,000 words in a day. But anyway, more on that in a second.KJ:                                        06:22                    I was listening to someone else on a different podcast, say exactly that same thing - about the people that can write 11,000 words in a day or whatever. And what that person said is, 'I probably, maybe could write 11,000 words in a day. However, the final 9,000 of them I would just have to throw away the next day. So, the gain would be zero. And that was her process.Jess:                                     06:50                    I actually had a really good experience this week. I got more written in a day than I had in a long time. And ironically, our listeners will be just tickled to hear it was while I was traveling. But I figured out why - it wasn't just that I was trapped on an airplane for a cross-country trip (which part of that obviously it had to do with it). But I realized that my laptop, (normally when I write at home, my laptop is plugged into a monitor that mirrors my laptop) so that I've got this nice big monitor and I can have multiple documents up at once. Which is great because my laptop keyboard stinks. But what I realized was that the fact that my laptop computer keyboard was broken, freed me up from editing as I wrote. So what I did was I was just typing, typing, typing, knowing full well that the edit was going to be a heavy one. But all I was doing was getting the chapter structure out. And I wrote 5,000 words that day on planes and was it messy? Absolutely. But something about being freed from that impulse to edit as I went was really good for me. And that's not something I had tried recently.Sarina:                                 08:10                    I have so many thoughts. The first one is I want to find you a bluetooth keyboard and ship it to you FedEx. So a couple of years ago, my father (foolishly, I might add) challenged me to a typing competition. He was laboring under the delusion that he was faster at typing than I was. So we had to settle it of course, as one does. And I clocked out at 95 words a minute. Beating him handily. I don't remember how badly and to save his feelings will not say right now. So if I told you a minute ago that my average pace is about 1200 words a day and if you put those two things together, it might lead you to believe that I can work for 12.63 minutes a day and be finished. But of course, I don't work for 12.63 minutes a day. And so, that led me to ask myself, what am I doing with all of that other time? So you just made a point that some of your time is spent fixing the B. And it made me want the following: (which I do not have) a tool that if I were just going to sit down and write for a couple of hours and then if I could look back at a video of what that page looked like as I went, I am 100% sure that I will type a thing and fix it, and type a thing and fix it, and type a thing and fix it. Because when I'm in the document and I'm composing chapter seven or whatever, and I'm looking at chapter seven and I'm writing it and there's dialogue and there's speech tags and all this stuff, I am constantly tweaking. Like, 'Oh look, there's two paragraphs that both start with the word I, let's change it.' And I just used that word two paragraphs ago, let's fix it. And that is my method. I am a fix-it-as-you-go kind of writer, because I just detest having a giant, horrible, messy chapter that I have to go back and rip to shreds for two days after I've written it. So at first, in my little quest for how to write faster, I listened to a lot of good advice about how to dictate things. And I tried, and I failed so spectacularly, because it turns out that the first way that something comes out of my mouth is never the way that I want it to. And that my process as an author, did not lend itself to dictation. Because sure I can dictate a lot faster than I can type, but I don't actually want that output. And what comes out of my mouth on the first round is not what I want to see on the page when I'm done. So I spent all this time trying to figure out why I couldn't get a dictated product that I was happy with. And it turned out, software wasn't my problem, the equipment wasn't my problem, the fact that Dragon stopped supporting the Mackintosh product was not my problem. None of it was my problem, except that I don't ever use the first thing that comes out.Jess:                                     11:50                    You write more dialogue, I don't tend to write dialogue. But do you find that dictation is helpful for dialogue?Sarina:                                 11:58                    You know, there's something that's more helpful for it. And that's this - the first part of writing quickly or learning to improve your pace is to understand what's holding you back. So, there might be people who don't type 95 words a minute and who are paralyzed by the blank page and who actually need that moving dictation. The eyes off the page to get that work out faster. In order to solve the question of how do I personally increase my pace you have to find out which personality type you are in terms of how it gets onto the page. So I just articulated mine to you right now, but a year ago I could not do that because I didn't actually know what was holding me back. So, then I set about trying lots of other things that weren't dictation based. So there's this book that I discussed with KJ once called 2k to 10k (and of course we'll put the link for that in the show notes.) And this author has a very analytical mind. I can't remember how quickly she wants our 10k to come. I don't even remember if she was advocating for a one day 10k or not, but it doesn't really matter. Because she was using similar analytics to figure out what her process was. So in her book, one of the things she says you should try is to make a nice journal of how your writing is going. So, if you sit down at 8:00 AM for 90 minutes, you should write down what time of day it is and what day of the week it is and how many words you got. And then you should do the same thing every single time you write and then you will see a pattern. I believe she thought she was the best in the morning, but that turned out to be wrong, she was most efficient at night. So, by analyzing your own ability to get words on the page, you can learn a lot about how to not waste your time. Which seems obvious in review, but was really meaningful to me when I figured that out. And then another thing she does in this book is actually the tool and technique that saved me, which she calls pre-writing. And this is where all the acceleration happened for me. She gave it a name, pre-writing, for something that I was sometimes already doing. Which is - I'll have a day where I'm finishing up a scene, and it's a great scene, and I love how it came out, and I will turn the page because it's done and I'll still have time and I'll still have energy left and I won't know exactly what happens next. Like my outline might be good, I might know the next bit of conflict is that my characters are going to have an argument about a thing and I already know what's at stake, but I don't know maybe where they're having it or what other little thing needs to happen first or just the really granular bits. Like how does that chapter start and how do they get into the argument in the first place? So this is where pre-writing is really important for me. So I close out that document, because that's the document where I'm gonna change every sentence that I write, and I open up my notebook, and I just start short-handing what's gonna happen. Like we start the scene here, and there's the problem, and here's the solution, and wait, we get into an argument. Oh wait, it's about the dog, the dog does it. There's this discovery on the page that's so free.Jess:                                     15:42                    Wait, can I ask you a question though, because I thought, (especially since you tend to co-write) weren't you guys doing that as part of your planning process for the book anyway? Or was that something that you were doing on your individual chapters without sort of talking that much to each other since you had like a big, overarching outline?Sarina:                                 16:03                    Right, that's exactly it. You know what happens next conflict wise, but you don't know how the scene unfolds.KJ:                                        16:10                    Yeah, I do something like this, too. What it looks like is something like, okay they're in the car, maybe they're in a coffee shop, then I sort of drudge along, just hit return and start again, yeah they're at the bookstore. You know, he comes around, oh, nonfiction section, perfect. I mean it literally looks like that. And then the next day when I go to that it also percolates in your head and sort of starts to turn into a scene, or it does for me.Sarina:                                 16:49                    Yup, and also dialogue, as well. When you just start blurting out onto the page the things that they're going to say to each other, you don't have to write the blocking. So you can quickly get to the heart of what is accomplished via that dialogue, like what plot is unfolding as people interact. And you don't have to worry about being consistent with body language, or that everybody blinks too much, or everybody's staring at each other too much, or all these little things that you find later that are too overwhelming. It's just the dialogue lines, no punctuation, no nothing. And that's when you figure out what's really happening in the scene. And then you take this God-awful, ugly piece of note taking you just did and then you go into your little perfectionist document and you write the scene in a way that pleases you. I'm just far more likely to fix fewer things when I do it that way because I'm excited that I've just solved the problem of what's happening.KJ:                                        17:58                    I think I could write faster if I could also write shorter. I could write less if I was more disciplined about what you just said. Which is what do they need to say to each other, why is this here, why does this need to be here? Because you know, frequently I'll have those two people in the bookstore or whatever, and there's all kinds of clever things they could see,or talk about, or do. And if I would just focus on why they need to be there and if I only wrote in one clever thing, then later on I wouldn't have to take out five clever things and that would speed me up overall.Sarina:                                 18:39                    Yeah. And that's where organization comes into play, because you can stash those clever things someplace else. Like, if you really like your note taking system, if you're comfortable with it, then you can just sticky-note it somewhere that 'Hey, this funny joke, that book we saw on the shelf, actually maybe plays into a theme that you're trying to develop.' So those little clever things can get set aside to percolate later.KJ:                                        19:13                    That's sort of a different question of working faster, I guess. Right now we're just trying to talk about getting more words on the page while you're drafting. But getting the right words on the page is good, too.Sarina:                                 19:26                    And then that whole idea about time of day, I haven't had much luck identifying a particular time of day that I'm better at getting words onto the page. However, I have noticed that the time of day that I get them out to the page has a very direct result on how I feel about everything. So, if I'm able to produce work in the morning, then I'm invincible. And if I sort of avoid it all day and end up writing it at 10:30 at night, then I'm just like on the treadmill and it hurts. So, that's another part of habits and how you get those words out and when. So sometimes I will even do the pre-writing step the night before. Like I'm feeling okay about the work for that day and I kind of know what's happening and let me just sit down and spew it into this notebook and then I will open it up in the morning and everything is less terrifying.Jess:                                     20:29                    That's what I think would help me the most. Yesterday I wrote for 14 or 16 hours, but it was obscene. And the thing that kept me from stopping is that I know that getting back into the flow is my problem. So I need something to help me. So that when I sit down in the morning, or after a break or whatever, I'm not like, 'Okay, what was I doing? Where am I? What am I doing next?' And sometimes I'll highlight things in the document and then just write really quickly, 'Here's what you were thinking about next.' And that can help me overcome that little hump, but it's also just a mental roadblock. When you have a document that's as big as a book, it's really hard to sort of wrap your brain around sitting down and diving back in. But after about 15 minutes or so, you're like, 'Oh, okay, I'm back in. This is good.' But I would love to eliminate that 15 minutes at the beginning.Sarina:                                 21:24                    Totally. For me, sometimes it's not 15 minutes, it's like three hours. And part of the reason for the three hours is that we're always convincing ourselves of something. I think writers are so guilty of this. Like in order to dig a ditch, you don't have to go back outside in the morning and convince yourself why that ditch should be dug. You know, the shovel is right there. But, with authorship there's a lot of doubt that comes into the equation and some of that doubt is necessary. So I like to think of it as like an in-breath and an out-breath. There are days when you just need to shut your inner critic off and just get that scene onto the page because that is what we're doing today. And then, maybe the next day you actually have to reverse the process and you have to invite your inner critic to the table and re-look at that scene that you did yesterday and make sure you're still going in the right direction. And so that requires a lot of emotional control of your inner critic. And my inner critic is not so easily manipulated as that some days.Jess:                                     22:31                    Well, I'm in that place with the book where I have these wild vacillations between like, 'I've totally got this, it's going to be so easy, I'm on the downhill slope.' And then not even seconds later, the enormity of what a book is will hit me and I'm like, 'I don't know that I'm doing anymore.' It's this crazy emotional place and it's so funny to me that I can vacillate so quickly between the two, but there we are.KJ:                                        23:14                    One was one of the hosts of Marginally was saying that she had read Wendell Berry. He had written that every day of farming, he would wake up, and lay in bed dreading like, and then he'd get out there and 15 minutes later he'd be like, 'Oh yeah, because I love it.' And you know (as someone with this small farm) recognizing that everybody has that 15 minutes. I mean, I think ditch ditch diggers do,too. You know, they know why they have to dig the ditch, but they're still like, 'Oh geez, not the ditch again, the same ditch, why didn't I finish that ditch yesterday?' You know, I think everybody's like that. And then you get out there and you're like, 'Alright, you know, I'm in the flow, I can see the progress, the ditch is getting deeper or whatever. Ditch digging might not be the best comparison. Anyway, I think we all have that feeling of get the butt in the chair and getting things going.Jess:                                     25:10                    The good part about this part in the process is I can overcome that, 'Oh my gosh, I have no idea what I'm doing.' If I just take a breath and sit back and go, 'What are you talking about? You've got this, you're fine.' But there were times with my first book when I couldn't break out of that. So that's good, that's getting better.KJ:                                        26:42                    Well as long as we're just talking about trying to get the work done as opposed to getting it faster. I also had a moment this week where somebody else was trying to get me to do something and that person was in a hurry and needed this urgently. My fresh morning time had already been taken up by a doctor's appointment, so my day was already not going great and I was gonna concede. You know, I was going to do this thing. And then I was just like, 'Wait, wait.' And I was being angry at the person in my head and I said, 'Who is doing this to you? You or that other person?' And I had to admit it was me. While they wanted me to do that at 10 rather than 11, they weren't necessarily going to know. So, I firmly put my little butt in the chair and did my own work for that first hour and a half and then I did the thing that the other person was asking of me.Jess:                                     27:51                    I achieved something elusive earlier this week. I was having a really good day of writing and I achieved the elusive writer's high. I've never experienced runner's high, even after years of distance running that's never something I ever got to. But I did have writer's high the other day it was really lovely. And I put on some music and I kind of danced in my chair a little bit while I wrote. It was lovely. It exists.Sarina:                                 28:16                    Well, let's spend another moment on the day when you can't find your writer's high. I have days when I just don't feel close enough to my characters or my topic. And sometimes those are the nights when I won't read anything before I go to sleep. So, instead of being tense about it - there's this funny part from Cheers (and I'm totally dating myself), where Norman, the interior decorator, would tell people, 'I've programmed myself to dream about your space.' And I love that line so much and I actually feel like I can turn that on a little bit with fiction. Where I will go for a walk, or I'll take a drive, or everyone knows how wonderful the shower is for writing thoughts, but I will just think about my characters in an unforced way. Or I will look for pictures on Pinterest of the coffee shop, or the attic bedroom, or the resort where they might be staying. I'll just do something that's tangential to figuring out the scene without actually worrying about what happens next in the scene. So we're not stuck, we're marinating. You're honoring the cogitation that has to happen before you're actually ready to go on. And yeah, it's true, I won't be getting any words on the page at that time, but I'm also not going to take flight from the problem. So, if you can find a way to allow yourself to think about your topic without actually saying 'What happens, what happens next?' then sometimes wonderful things happen that way.KJ:                                        30:10                    I love that. We're not stuck, we're marinating. You're also just finding other ways to keep your butt in the chair, right?Sarina:                                 30:19                    Yeah, or even out of the chair.KJ:                                        30:21                    Or you know, keeping your head in the game, then. Something, come on, do something.Sarina:                                 30:25                    Yeah, definitely head in the game. Once I drew a picture of the floor plan of the bar owner in my story. I didn't actually need the floor plan. I just drew it because it kept me thinking about him in a way that was not confrontational to what chapter 11 was going to do.KJ:                                        30:50                    I love the idea of you like having these confrontational, mental... And you're so right, sometimes you just can't get them, you can't figure out why they would do what it is that you need them to do, or what they would do instead that still makes things move. And it is a confrontation.Sarina:                                 31:14                    Yup. And some books are faster than others, obviously. People who think that my writing pace is fast, should remember that I'm writing books in essentially two series, where the world building has been established in previous books and some of the characters are already known. I just wrote an email 10 minutes ago to my assistant asking her to go through six books and pull out every reference to the youngest brother in this family. And then to go deep diving for mentions of the deceased father, because he's going to become important. And I will just reread every line about those people. So that falls under the category of what cannot be rushed. So, it's amazing that there are people who can write 11,000 words in a day, but I would still posit that on novel that I want to read again and again has some parts that have to take a pause after those 11,000 words. Because reviewing your own work for theme and motif is something you can't rush, basically. I always need to go back and find like, 'Oh, look how many times I mentioned lost sheep.' So, being lost is a theme of this book, and the sheep is the motif, and where have I underutilized this image and what was I thinking? That kind of thing, it's lovely to write fast, but if you give yourself permission to have to go back and think about all these things, then you'll end up with something that you're really happy with whenever you do finally write the end.KJ:                                        33:03                    So I think when I talk about write faster, I would just like to get another couple hundred solid words a day. I would like to spend a little less time hovering over the keyboard and a little more time with my fingers moving. But not 11,000 words.Jess:                                     33:27                    I think a good marriage for me in a day is a little bit of time spent smoothing out stuff I've already written and just pounding out new stuff. But I can't do both for really long periods of time because it's different, mentally taxing tasks for me. You know, getting a ton of words on the page is tiring in one way. And editing stuff I've already written is tiring in a different way. And for some reason for me, if I do a little bit of both, I can last longer.KJ:                                        33:58                    I will just sort of point out to myself, that I've done NaNoWriMo. I have won NaNoWriMo and I'll just bask in the glory of that for a minute. And it is the book that eventually became The Chicken Sisters. So, I can write 1600 words in a day. I typically don't, but I could. So some of write faster might also be make more space. I was getting up early on days when, in a normal month, I might not get up early. I was pushing things aside that I might not have pushed aside. So, making the space - I guess that's not writing faster, that's just writing more.Jess:                                     34:45                    Well, there's a really fun activity that I used to do with my students for NaNoWriMo when I gave them space to do NaNoWriMo in November, obviously. There's a little workbook that they used to produce and I'm not entirely sure that they still do. And there's a big page at the beginning of the workbook and it's got a big picture of basically what looks like your no button, KJ. It's like a big like stop button. And you're supposed to pretend to hit it, because that's your inner editor. You're supposed to silence your inner editor and so we would actually do it for fun. We would put the page on the desk, and we'd all slam the desk and say, 'That's it.' Our inner editor, we've just shut it off, so that we can move forward without having to worry about going back and make everything perfect. And that allowed the students to let go of that perfectionism a little bit and just allow the words to flow more and to become part of the process, instead of part of the editor. So that was a fun thing.KJ:                                        35:41                    You touched on this, but do you separate your editing days and your writing days or your editing blocks and you're writing blocks? I've been in a deep editing space, cause I just turned in essentially the final edit of The Chicken Sisters and I'm having a hard time. In fact, instead of getting into deep writing on my new project (for a lot of reasons), but including the fact that I'm in editing mode, I'm going back over the probably first third to a half of the book that I already have, and making it match where I know I'm going. Whereas in in the past, when I've written things I have not gone back. I've just gone forward the way I knew I was going, and then gone back and fixed it. So how do you manage that editing versus writing space?Sarina:                                 36:35                    I go back a lot. I really am a big fan of going back to the beginning, and printing it out, and reading it, and scribbling in the margins, and then doing an edit even before I've hit the 50% Mark. And Elle Kennedy doesn't like to do that. She likes to write the whole thing and then go back and fix it, but I feel too out of control. It's like there's dishes in the sink kind of feeling. One way that that benefits me is that I just printed out a book that I had just finished and I had exactly four days to do the final revision and the result was totally as expected, which is that that first 25% did not require very much of me because I had already been there so many times. The second 25% was okay, the third 25% was a disaster, and the last quarter was great because I had already figured all my stuff out. And I was able to write the last quarter of the book, even if I hadn't fixed the 50 to 75% part yet, I knew what was there and it was all fresh.KJ:                                        37:45                    I think it's just too soon for me. I'm only on my second hopefully publishable novel (I've got some tucked away). So it's too soon for me to sort of say, 'Oh, this is how I do it.' But, some part of me doesn't want to spend too much time going back and polishing the first 25% because at least in the first book there were things that I needed to go back and change. I don't think you're polishing anyway. It's somewhere between polishing it and revising. I want to revise to get the plot consistent, and the character development consistent, and the things that I know are happening consistent, but I don't want to spend too much time on it because there's a pretty decent chance that somewhere the final third of the book, something will happen that will cause me to go 'Oh, yeah. I really got to go back and and insert this, that, or the other, or pull out this, that, or the other, because that has changed. So it's an interesting balance.Sarina:                                 38:50                    I still take that risk. I'll polish the heck out of things even if they're gonna get changed.KJ:                                        38:57                    You have permission. Well this was, I am going to write faster, or better, or more, or something.Jess:                                     39:08                    I always just benefit from hearing how strategic Sarina is in her thinking about her writing.KJ:                                        39:14                    I think it's just good to take some time and think strategically. So I love that. But let's switch gears, who's been reading?Jess:                                     39:23                    Actually, can I go first on the book? Because that's exactly what the book I've been listening to is about. So, I had very high expectations for Jodi Kantor and Meghan Twohey's book 'She Said'. And oh my gosh, it's so much better than even I thought it would be. And here's why I love it so much. Of course, I love the background stuff, you know part of the story of this is that they had to get to people like Ashley Judd and Gwyneth Paltrow without going through agents and publicists, the people who it's their job to protect these people. So they had to do a lot of that and there were things I was looking forward to reading in this book. For writers, this book is a masterclass in investigative journalism. And I'm not talking about like sweeping ideas, I'm talking about nuts and bolts. Here's how they kept this document secret in the New York Times system, where they keep work in progress. Here's how Megan Twohey handled someone who's answer on the telephone said one thing, but clearly meant another. It's brilliant. And they really take you into the room, they take you into the page one room, they take you into the meetings where they were. I'm talking about the tiny, minute details that could either make the story credible or make the story fall apart. And I learned a ton and I also just got that juicy behind-the-scenes dishing on the guts of investigative journalism. And I was just blown away by the book. Absolutely blown away by the book. And if you get a chance and you see it in the store, turn it over and look at the blurbs on the back. Cause frankly, that's one of the coolest things I've ever seen. Instead of having blurbs on the back, they have quotes from women about the Weinstein case, or Trump, or whoever. And it's attributed to She Said. It's so brilliant, it's just a fantastic book. Kudos to them, I'm so impressed. They just deserve for this book to be a runaway bestseller.Sarina:                                 41:38                    Sounds amazing.Jess:                                     41:39                    Yeah, it's just so good. Sarina, what have you been reading?Sarina:                                 41:45                    Well, I'm still in an editing hellscape of my own creation, but I have been flipping through this hilarious research book. Which is not meant to be hilarious, but it's called the 100 Deadly Skills by Clint Emerson, retired Navy SEAL. And it's the subtitle is The SEAL Operatives Guide to Eluding Pursuers, Evading Capture, and Surviving Any Dangerous Situation. And he is not kidding.Jess:                                     42:14                    This is like the last book I can picture you reading. I'm so intrigued.Sarina:                                 42:19                    I know, but it's for fiction naturally. So now I know how to bar myself in a hotel room.KJ:                                        42:43                    That's awesome, I love it. Well, I have not been reading. I actually have started something I'm excited about, but I'm gonna finish it before talking about it. So what I have to offer everyone instead, (and I'm actually really excited about this) I have found two fantastic new podcast, specifically for book recommendations. I can't believe I did not know about these, and maybe you guys did, but I am absolutely in love with, What Should I Read Next with Anne Bogle, who's also known as the Modern Mrs. Darcy. I want to be a guest on this podcast so bad, you guys. What she does is she has one guest and she asks them what they've enjoyed lately, what is not for them, and what kind of reads they want to to have on their bedside table, and then she gives them three recommendations after having this sort of glorious 40 minute long talk about what they like about books, and what they don't like about books. I love it, it's such fun to listen to. And on a similar note, I also came across the Get Booked podcast from Book Riot and this is two hosts and they don't have a guest. Instead, people write them in and they say something like, 'I have a really hard time finding the right thing to read on a plane. I need it to be distracting like maybe with dragons, but I really hate it when it involves, you know, the gender politics, what can I read...' These questions are so specific and then they launch into their book recommendations and it's so much fun to listen to.Jess:                                     44:21                    That's cool. That's how I use Twitter when I've got a student that has very specific interests, and a very specific reading level, and is a reluctant. I go to Twitter and I say, 'Okay, fifth grade reading level, basketball, a kid who's from central America, Go.' And then you know, I get all these cool recommendations. I love that.KJ:                                        44:41                    I believe, Jess, you said you have bookstore news. So instead of a fave indie bookstore this week, we're going to lay out some indie bookstore news for people.Jess:                                     45:05                    It's very cool. This is newly public news from Jenny Lawson. She wrote Furiously Happy and Let's Pretend This Never Happened and a fantastic coloring book for people when they're anxious. Anyway, she's just wonderful and she is opening a new bookstore in San Antonio. She signed her lease just recently. It's going to be called Nowhere Bookshop and she has secured the former head of the CEO of The Book People Bookshop in Austin, which is a fantastic bookshop, as the general manager of her bookshop. That will be opening goodness knows when, but either later this year or early next year. So that is huge news. San Antonio is going to have a new bookstore, and I believe also a bar, but don't quote me on that. It's gonna be a combination bookshop and other things. And that's just really exciting, especially since I have a date at a speaking engagement in San Antonio coming up. So I'm praying that she gets it done in time.KJ:                                        46:10                    Alright, well let's call it guys. We got places to be, we got words to write.Jess:                                     46:29                    Absolutely. Alright, everyone, until next week, keep your butts in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid. This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Ashley: Hello. This is Ashley here with the Mompreneur Tribe. I am so thrilled today to have someone that's in it kind of different market. You really sometimes wouldn't think of a mom entrepreneur in this area. But here is a mom that is rocking it, is business partner with her husband. Her name is Catie Bird. She is with Harley Davidson of Durango, Colorado. Welcome, Catie. Thanks for being on. I'm just so excited because this is just ... You have such a unique business. So can you introduce yourself please and tell us a little bit about you? Catie: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much first of all for thinking of me and wanting to include me on your podcast, it's a really big honor. I think that being a mompreneur is definitely something to be really proud of and excited for. I'm in about two and a half years of entering that mompreneur role. So I'm still learning quite a lot of what it takes to be a business owner and whatnot. I'm just really grateful to you too for including me in this podcast. Catie: A little bit about me, my name is Catie and I am a southern girl from Texas, was born and raised in South Texas my whole life. And now as of about two years ago, I now live in Southwest Colorado with my husband, Trevor, who he and I have been married for 10 years, celebrated in November. We have two beautiful children. Millie is our daughter. She just turned nine last week and our son Reese, who turned seven recently as well. Catie: My husband, Trevor and I own Durango Harley Davidson here in Durango, Colorado, which is far Southwest Colorado. So if you think about the US map and you're looking in Southwest Colorado, we're right next to the four corners, so where we connect with Arizona, New Mexico and Utah. It's really a pretty amazing place to live as far as landscape, the mountain ranges and the rivers. It's just a beautiful place to be and a really big destination for motorcycle riders. Catie: There's so many wonderful rides that draw people here. So we are mostly a seasonal business, which is a big change for us from coming to Texas because we in Texas ... It's summer basically year-round. So people are riding motorcycle all the time, so things don't really slow down. Here, it's very, very different.We have about six out of the year to really sell, sell, sell, make it or break it before winter hits, and everything basically comes to a halt. So it's definitely a very different way of life in a very different style of business from what we're used to. I think we've done a really good job of adjusting to that and running our business based on that model now of seasonality. So- Ashley: Tell me about how you got there. That was the next thing is like why did y'all leave Texas to go up to Colorado and start out on this business? Because y'all been a part of the Harley Davidson Family for a while now, right? Catie: Yes, yes. My husband, Trevor has been working for the brand, sell Harley brand for gosh, close to 17 years now and with two dealerships back in Texas where we're from. I've never been involved with the Harley business. When I graduated college, I went into the corporate world and I started working for the NBA with the San Antonio Spurs was my first job out of college. Catie: That was a really amazing experience and really learned a whole, whole lot there. Then from then, from there I decided we were ready to start a family. And so I became a stay at home mom for about seven years, which I feel very blessed that I was able to do that as long as I was. All the time while I was staying at home or working with the Spurs, my husband was continuing with Harley Davidson in San Antonio in the New Braunfels area. Catie: Then I kind of started feeling my kids were getting a little bit older, starting Mother's Day out. I was kind of feeling like I was missing something, I love being a wife and a mom, but I was missing a purpose I felt like for myself outside of those roles. My best friend actually has started her own business selling custom men's wear, custom men's wear company. So I jumped on with her. Because I have a love of fashion, I have some merchandising background as well. So I jumped in and started my own business with her selling custom men's wear. So that was really fun and fulfilling. I was able to do it on my own time and still be there for my kids, and be home for Trevor and do the whole mom-wife thing as well. Catie: But just a few years ago, an opportunity kind of arose, Trevor and I had been really praying and thinking a lot about our future and what we wanted for our kids. While he had a partnership in some of the dealerships in Texas, we felt like it was time for us to branch out on our own, with all, with all of his years of knowledge, it was time for us to go and find our own dealership where that could be 100% owned by us and our family. Durango kind of fell in our laps, it's kind of a long story of how that happened. But it has been such a huge blessing. If you would've asked me 10 years ago where I saw myself today, living in Southwest Colorado, owning a motorcycle dealership would never have crossed my mind. Catie: I never grew up around motorcycles. I didn't know really much about them at all other than I would ride with Trevor and we would go places and do stuff. A little bit of the business side from what he would share with me. But that definitely was not in my wheelhouse of plans for myself. So it's kind of really interesting to see where I am now. But I wouldn't change a thing. It's been an amazing blessing for our family to be here. I also never thought I would leave Texas. I've gotten my Southern roots and they are deep. But it's really been fun, a fun adventure to try somewhere new and be somewhere new with meeting different people. There's so many wonderful blessings that have come from it. Catie: But now, when we took over ownership of the dealership back in June of 2017 is when we started, we were just blown away immediately by the team that was already here and in place. All of the managers that were with the business before we took over ownership are still with us today. That's something that Trevor and I are really proud of because this team that we have is in my opinion, the best in the business. Catie: They were really great about transitioning and learning a new way of doing things with our business model and whatnot. They have just really, really made our jobs easy as far as leadership because they all are leaders. They all do a great job. We really are a family here. And that's one thing that sharp and I have always talked about from the beginning is that we want to be a family where we want everyone to feel welcomed, and loved, and supported. Also, we are a family owned business. Our kids are very much involved in everything that we do here at the dealership and combined with them being here all the time and having a strong relationship with our team, we feel really lucky to be here. So that's kind of how we got where we are in a nutshell. Ashley: That's such a leap of faith to leave, be a Texan and leave. I feel like so many ... So many people come to Texas, they rarely leave unless it's a big calling. And you found that calling and y'all left. Now here you are, you're two and half years into this new business venture. But it sounds like you guys are very settled in it. Can you tell me a little bit about your roles? And what it's like being in business with your partner? And how you all divide up responsibilities and then day in and day out of juggling the kids? Catie: Yes, absolutely. So it's really kind of cool how it's worked out because I, to be honest, was not quite sure how it was going to go, working with Trevor 'cause we are together all the time anyway. And I'm thinking, are we going to butt heads? We've never worked together before. How is this going to work? And so it just fell into place in that I know his strengths, his strengths are my weaknesses and kind of vice versa as well. My strengths are kind of his weaknesses. So where Trevor takes over, he handles most of the overlooking things, the motorcycle sales division and all of the finance part of the business, which I am not a numbers person. That is so far over my head, and I will admit it. Catie: That is a big weakness of mine. Being a business owner, it's definitely something that you should know really well. I'm taking the baby steps to really try and dive, dive in and learn more about that side of it. But for now, it's great that I have this partner that does know that side really well so that I can focus on where the other needs in the business are, which are marketing and the merchandise sells, so the general merchandise department. So if any of you who aren't familiar with Harley Davidson or have never been into a Harley Davidson dealership, I'll just kind of explain a little bit of what it looks like. Besides this your showroom floor with all of the motorcycles, the new and used, we also have a very large general merchandise department. Catie: So clothes, fashion, writing gear, your leather jackets, your riding boots, all of your protective gear as well as just your casual gear that you wear when you're not on the bike, so the fashion side of it. There's also a parts department where you can come and buy motorcycle parts and then have them installed in our service department, which we have a really large service department. Very, very wonderful service department. Catie: We get compliments on our team back there all the time on their great service and, and how well that they do. So there's lots of different areas of the business that need to be managed and watched over. So Trevor does sales and finance and I handle all the marketing and the merchandise. And it works really, really well because there wasn't a marketing department here in the shop beforehand, before we took over ownership. Catie: It was kind of a split job between like our accountant. The accountant would kind of do it, the controller and everyone kind of shared responsibilities, which was great. They made it work because again, as a seasonal business, we only have about 10 full-time employees that are here year-round. Then once the season starts to pick up, usually in May, then we add about 10 to 15 more just for the summer. So we grow quite a bit in our peak season and then kind of go down to the skeleton crew in the winter time. But there wasn't a specific person that was handling the marketing. So my degree is in public relations and communication. So it was kind of an easy role for me to kind of just step into and start handling that part of it. Catie: So it's actually been really awesome working with Trevor because we respect each other's strengths and we lift each other up. We always lean on each other because we know that this is make it or break it for us. We moved our family away from everything that we knew to take on this dealership. This is our livelihood. So I know to respect him when he says, "No, Catie, this isn't going to work. We've got to restructure and think of something else," and vice versa. Catie: He does the same with me. So having that mutual respect and trust in each other has really made this partnership work, being able to work with my husband each day. I will say there are those days that he really gets on my nerves. I just go and I just shut myself in my office so that ... 'Cause we are husband and wife. We don't get along all the time and we don't always agree, but we respect each other. Catie: So I know when he's in a bad mood, if he's having a bad day, I'm just going to keep my distance today and I will handle what I need to do and vice versa. So it works. It works for us. Ashley: I like that you pointed out several different things. Being in a partnership with my mom, we've definitely learned that we play off of each other's strengths and weaknesses. So her strengths are some of my weaknesses and my strengths are some of her weaknesses. We really play that to the advantage of our business. Then at the end of the day, when you just have respect for your partner, your business partner, whether it's a parent or a spouse or a friend, it really truly goes a long way in business and being able to trust them that "Hey, this is for the good of the business." And like you said, it's your family's livelihood. It's the same with us. It's, actually two families' livelihood and plus you feel the responsibility of all the employees that you employ as well and their livelihood. Ashley: You want to make it work and make it successful for everyone. So I love those points that you pointed out. And then at the end of the day, not everything's perfect. We're all humans, right? So you really know how to keep your space. Catie: Yeah, absolutely. Ashley: So what is a tip that you would give to fellow mompreneurs that are trying to juggle it all and juggle having a business and kids? And because you were a stay at home mom, lik you are very active in your kid's lives and everything. How do you make it work? Catie: That's a good question and I think that I'm still figuring it out honestly. It's just day by day and for me, like I'm such a Type A planner type person that I feel like I have to have every moment of my day and my week planned out. I'm trying to reverse that and to just like being present in the moment and what I'm doing right then, and focusing on that and not stressing so much about what's going to happen later because I find that when I do that, if I'm at either when the kids are at work with me or if I'm at home with them, my mind is just constantly thinking about the next thing. Okay, what do I have to do next? What do I need to do for the kids next? Catie: Instead of being present right there and jumping down on the floor and making that puzzle with my kid or going outside just to kick the soccer ball with my son. I need to be more intentional and more present. And that's something that I'm really working on. So my advice for other mompreneurs out there is that even if you're not a planner or if you are, I do think it's ... I'm a very big list person. I think like being intentional and like actually scheduling that time even if it's just 10 minutes to give your children like your full attention is important 'cause otherwise, the day can just get away from you and you get busy getting ready for dinner, doing laundry talking to that client on the phone problem solving, doing homework, all of that tha. I find that if I schedule lik okay, from 6:00 to 7:00, that's strictly for Millie and I. Catie: Millie and I are going to sit and we're going to chat about her day. I'm going to give her what she needs right now. That's not going to happen every day. And that's okay. I think we also need to give ourselves as moms a lot of grace and understanding that we're not going to be perfect every day, all the time. The mom guilt is real. I have it all the time. The first year for me going from being a stay at home mom to working full-time in a new place without any other family here to help with the kids and all of that, I was really hard on myself and I felt like I was failing at everything, whether it'd be work or the kids because I wasn't doing it perfectly and I didn't have it all figured out. Catie: But now going into, let's see, we did two and a half years now. Like I'm finally learning that it's okay to not have it all figured out and to not be perfect in everything. My kids are loved. They're happy, they're flourishing in this new place. I rest in grace and mercy in that. Like I know that they are good. I guess the advice is just don't be so hard on ourselves. We're doing the best that we can and that's all we can do. I also think that it's really important for our kids to see us as moms struggling. I think that they need to see that mom isn't perfect but mom tries her best. I think that's important especially at work because my kids are at work with us all the time because we don't have extra help. We don't have other family here or whatnot. So a lot of times after school, they come up here to the dealership and they, luckily it's a pretty cool, fun place to hang out. My son loves to go to the service department and sit there and watch all the technicians work on the motorcycles. Ashley: Yes, a young boy's dream playground. Catie: Yeah. It's cool. I mean, I feel like he's getting an education just being back there, watching these guys work. He's got this engineer brain and it's really cool. He loves that. My daughter, she'll jump in on the sales floor and start folding t-shirts. She's an expert t-shirt folder now. She is very confident and talks to customers. It's so cute because I'll have customers come up to me and ask me if she's my daughter and I'll be like, yes. And they'll say, "Oh, she was so great. She came up to me and said, hi, welcome to Durango Harley Davidson. Can I help you find anything today?" So it's a cool place for them to be. I think they're also learning the value of hard work being here and seeing mom and dad running this business. Catie: But our kids also see our bad days. They see it like when there is an upset customer and they're watching how Trevor and I are resolving that. They're seeing like, if Millie comes back to my office and I'm just way behind on stuff, or I just lost this campaign that I ran just didn't go very well and I'm upset about it. I don't hide it from her. My son still so little, I think he's kind of oblivious to a lot of it. But my daughter, she's very in tuned to emotions and things. She doesn't miss a beat, but I let her see me. I don't try and hide it whenever things aren't going great. I think that obviously for her, her age, I don't show her everything that's bad or horrible. Catie: But I think it's important for kids to see that we're human and that we struggle when we fail. But the important thing is that we don't give up. That's one of our family rules. Birds don't give up, we don't quit. We can fail and that's okay, but there's more honor in failing than there is in not even trying because you're afraid to lose. That's big lesson that we want to teach our kids is you can't be afraid to go for what you want. We didn't make this leap of faith to Colorado with the expectation of failing. But we knew that we needed to do, we needed to make a change and this was where God's leading us. We're here and it's not always going to be easy and it's not always going to be exciting, fun, happy days. Catie: But we stand firm and knowing that we're here for a reason and we've got a purpose here. I just think it's important for our kids to see that we are human. When they see how we react to the problems and to things that are going good or bad, then they're learning as well. I'm hoping, my hope is that one day when they enter the workforce for real, they're going to know the discipline that it takes to be successful and not being afraid of failure because that was a big challenge for me is failing. Catie: Watching my husband throughout his business and his life with Harley Davidson, I've seen him take a lot of risks. We've also had a lot of failures. But I really respect that he's never let that stop him from trying something new and doing what he wants. So watching him go through that has given me the confidence to know that I can do this too. I may not know a whole lot about motorcycles. I do a lot more now than I did two years ago, but I know that I have passion for this brand. I have passion for our business and the people that worked here and our customers. It makes it extremely fulfilling to come to work every day. Ashley: Your passion just now, I am just taken away. When you said the we will show honor, more honor in failing like the life lessons that you just talked about right there and how you're showing that to your kids, it's so impactful. I tell this to my husband sometimes, I'm like taking our kids to work with us, they will learn so much more some days than they ever will in that classroom. Ashley: The life lessons, and you just like nailed it with everything you said and how your kids are involved in the business in the day in and day out, and being a part of it, and seeing your reactions with customers. I absolutely agree with you just because we have a retail store too. My oldest is old enough to come and understand those interactions. You're absolutely right. They're watching our interactions, they're learning from it. Ashley: It can be such a good thing. It can be such a good thing to show that to our kids and just the way you articulated it was so great and just hearing your passion behind it, how it's more than actually just you being a mompreneur and being in partner with your husband. But it's a whole family. It's the whole family there that made the move, that's doing this business together. That's incredible. I applaud you guys. I loved hearing all your passion just now when you were talking about just the tip that you give, it is true. It is so true. And how we be present in our day to day lives for our kids, but also to give ourselves grace. So much grace. Catie: Yeah. Exactly. So much grace. Yeah. We're not perfect and we never will be. But all we can do is just do the best that we can. I'm making it a goal of mine to just not worry so much about everybody being happy and everything being perfect and take me. It's okay. It's okay if they're not ... It's okay that they're here at work with me every day after school this week because I have a lot going on. You know what, that's all right. Because what would they be doing at home besides sitting there watching TV or jumping on the trampoline? They've got stuff to keep them busy here and I can be okay with that. They're going to be just fine. Ashley: Yes. Catie: So yes, grace is a big, big thing. Ashley: Yes. I look at it with our family business is that they could be at home with a babysitter in front of the TV or they could be there interacting with ... It's great communication skills. Catie: Absolutely. Ashley: It's much better than them learning to text or play on the computer. They're learning great communication skills, dealing with customers and learning to talk to our employees. Ttalking respectfully, I feel like that's a great teaching studio for them. Catie: Yeah, 100%. Ashley: Catie- Catie: That was awesome. Ashley: I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation today. I think you provided such wisdom to other fellow mompreneurs and especially that we just need to show ourselves grace. Something I ask all guests is what is a way that we can show up or support your business and you guys during this season? Yeah, how can we support you guys? Catie: Awesome. Well, you can support us if in the way of just follow us like on our Instagram page we actually have a really cool Instagram page. We do all these different lifestyle posts everyday of different motorcycle riders far and wide all around the country, in the world. They're really, really neat. They all have positive messages to them as well. So our Instagram page is @DurangoHarleyDavidson, all one word, no dash or anything. And then you can also check out our website, DurangoHarley.com. But one thing I want to touch on and follow us on Facebook too. Yeah. 'Cause we post a lot on there as well. But we also own a motorcycle rally that happens here every Labor Day weekend. We just finished year two for us. It's actually a rally that's been around for like 26 years or something. Catie: But right when we moved here, it kind of fell out. The previous owner that had some bad business skills kind of had ran it into the ground. But it used to be, there used to be 20 to 30,000 motorcyclists that would come through Durango on Labor Day weekend. It kind of fell apart. So my husband and I, and our marketing partner in the rally, John Oaks really tried hard to rebuild this rally. Catie: Bring it into a new light with different, with newer events like hooligan dirt, dash races. We just did our first ever motorcycle hill climb at Purgatory Resort, which is where our ski mountain here. It was a huge success and it was really, really awesome. I encourage you also to follow Four Corners Motorcycle Rally on Instagram as well. They post a lot of really awesome content, but the rally is a great way to support our local community here in Durango. They would bring a lot of economic success here for that, that one weekend. So that's a great way to support as well, just talking about what it is that we're doing here in Durango for labor day weekend and bringing in that next generation of motorcycle riders and bringing something fun to the community. Ashley: Awesome. So we will. We will ask, we ask all of you listeners out there if you will engage with them. So follow them on Instagram for the Four Corners Motorcycle Rally as well as Durango Harley Davidson on Instagram. I'm going to go check them both out. Then of course I didn't realize that different Harley Davidson dealerships have different websites. So that's good to know. If you are a Harley fan or maybe you have a need to buy a gift for a Harley fan, that's where I am. My dad had a Harley day was then growing up. And so my only purpose I've ever had in life is just to buy gifts. Ashley: So I literally walk up to the counter and just check out. I've never even explored the dealership. I just ordered and picked up there. S go and shop you guys at Durango Harley Davidson. All of this information will be in the show notes as well as if you click through and you got to our show through a social media link, go back to the social media page cause we're going to tag those in the social media pages. Ashley: Catie, I thank you for being a guest on today's show. Listeners, I invite you, you just heard me talk about how we can support Catie and her husband, Trevor in the Durango Harley Davidson dealership, their business. Please go out, engage with them on social media. Ashley: That is something you can do that is free, to support any business. And sometimes you hear a big brand and you think, "Oh, that's just some national brand." No, there's actually families behind these big brands. So the Bird Family owns this dealership. It's family-run. Sometimes people get lost in those big brands, but no, it's actually a family-owned business. So go out and support them. Ashley: And if you liked today's episode, I invite you to hit subscribe and leave us a review. We always are looking for feedback and comments, and want to hear all your great thought and reviews. So thanks for listening and have a great day. Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. To find out more about Ashley, log on to the MompreneurBoutique.com that's the MompreneurBoutique.com.  

James:  Hi, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Podcast. Today, I have Glen Gonzalez who have been a big operator out of you know, Austin, Texas, and Glenn has deals which he has done in Dallas area, Corpus Christi Clean and south of Houston City, called Lake Jackson. And he is currently owning about 3,000 units at some point, in the past few years, he owned like more than. 4,500 units and he also have a strong property management company, previously, which used to manage up to 6,500 units. So he brings really good value to this podcast. Hey Glenn, how are you doing? Glenn: Hey, James, doing great. Thanks for having me on, this is exciting.  James: Yeah. Yeah. Did I miss out any of the story behind you that you want to clarify? Glenn: Maybe. I think where I came from, you know, because people are always interested. You know, we talk about all the success that we have, but I actually started as a maintenance man. James: Wow.  Glenn: I was kind of at the bottom of the barrel, picking up trash and I was like a porter, really. And then I was eventually painting apartments and fixing stoves and stuff. So my involvement in the apartment industry started about 30 years ago. So I actually came through as a maintenance man, leasing agent, property manager, then a regional manager, director of operations and so all the way through. Pretty much all the different ranks of Property Management until about six years ago, when I started buying my own, as the owner. And that really changes the perspective on apartments, you know, you got an operator perspective and an owner perspective, so maybe I could share some of that today while we're all on the call.  James: Sure. That would be really, really interesting. I mean some of the big guys that I know in this apartment, such as Ken McElroy. I mean, he started as a property manager, right? And I interviewed Eddy Lauren who has done like more like 1 billion in transactions as an operator. One of the big first advice that he told our listeners when I interviewed him like a few podcasts back was like, start from the ground, start to learn from the ground itself. Be property manager or be a maintenance man or porter and then learned in the business because you can learn so many things. So it looks like you have that 'coming from the ground' experience. Now, you have no more than 3,000 units and you used to have 4,500 units, which is awesome. I mean looking at from the ground itself up to the asset management; like when you were maintenance man or a porter, what did you think about the owners? Glenn: Oh my gosh, I used to get so nervous when the owners would show up to one of my apartment complexes because my boss would call me and say, hey, the owners are coming so I want to make sure this place looks perfect and everything is in order. And then they would tell me things like, you know, if they ask you a bunch of questions, you know, they would say let me do the talking. So I was basically supposed to keep my mouth shut and that just kind of made me nervous, you know, because of all the hype and stuff.  So I don't know, you kind of think the owners are almost not like real people to some degree, but they are, they're just like you and me. They're just common folks.   James: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean sometimes, especially the maintenance crew, right? I mean usually when owners come into a property, when we go and visit our property - I mean, most of the owners, we talk to the office staff, right? Because we think we control the whole thing but the backbone of renewal in the property is the maintenance. Because people are happy when work orders are being taken care of and people really like that. So we really make it a point to really take care of the maintenance people and that's another advice for all the listeners out there. If you own property, don't just look at the property managers or the leasing agents or the assistant managers; go and say hi to your maintenance people because they are really, really important. Don't you think so? Glenn: Absolutely. I would add a little bit to that. You know, when I go visit a property, I always speak with the maintenance guys, always because they will tell you everything that's going on on that property, even the stuff the manager might not know. I mean, they know how often they're recharging air conditioners or how often they're fixing things. I mean, they know the work orders like the back of their hand, but beyond that, they even know the tenants. I mean they know which ones have pets and which ones don't have pets because they're in there, doing work orders. They know everything. And I would say that they're often the ones that are neglected because like you mentioned earlier, when we go and do a site visit, a lot of times we'll sit down with the property manager and we'll talk about the lessee and the marketing and the delinquency and some of those common things but rarely do we talk to the maintenance guy about, hey, is there anybody out here that's like a bad apple, that's like creating a lot of havoc? And they will tell you who's dumping the trash out there. They will tell you who are having parties late at night and whose got like 5 dogs in their apartment. You know, I mean, they know everything. So my advice is if you need to know what's really going on behind the scenes, get to know your maintenance guys. James: Yeah. I think it's also important during the due diligence process right? Because sometimes we are with the Brokers and we have the managers and you can see that they like to hide the people who know the real stuff which is the maintenance guys, right? So try to get to them to ask more questions. Did you have any tips and tricks to get to maintenance guys while doing due diligence so that we can get the truth from them?  Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. I think part of it is just making them feel appreciated and that their opinion matters, I'll tell you this just like I was sharing my experience. I used to get really nervous when the owners would come around because to me, when I was younger, they were very intimidating. So if one of those guys came up and wanted to talk to me, I'd be like, um, you're talking to me? So find a way to make them comfortable, you know, really, at the end of the day, just make them feel appreciated for all their hard work and acknowledge that they are such a big part of the team. And when they feel appreciated and they feel acknowledged, trust me, they'll share with you a lot of important information.  They may offer information that nobody else knows. They may say things like, hey, by the way, I would go check the roofs on building 3 because we had several roof leaks on that one building in the last four months. They know everything because they're doing all the sheetrock repairs on the inside, right? And so they even know where it's leaking. It could be around the chimney or something in there. Just be like, good idea, thanks. I will check that. So yeah, due diligence, maintenance guys, you're absolutely right. James: The other thing that we do, just to share with the listeners is you know, we also ask the maintenance guys to rank the property managers. So it's not only like property managers control the whole thing, I think six months, once a year, we do this 360 feedback on the property managers from the maintenance right? Because you know, sometimes you need to give them the voice, right? And I think we have to just give them an official channel for them to voice what they want to share in terms of how the property managers are doing,  what these people are doing. Glenn: You know and I've shared this with some of my friends in the industry that you'll never ever have a successful manager without a successful maintenance guy and vice versa. If one of them are really good at their job and the other one is not, you will not be maximizing the value of that apartment complex. I mean, it's almost like a marriage, you know, the manager and the maintenance supervisor, they're married at the hip. They've got to be on the same page and if they're not, if they're complaining about each other, you know, that's an opportunity to stop and pause about why they're not on the same page. So just FYI, you know, and if one of the maintenance guys like you said gives a rating to the manager of a very low number like, oh, that manager is a 2 at the best, you might want to go talk to the manager.  Like how do you rate your maintenance guy? He's like a negative 2 at best, you know, and it's like, what's going on and who knows what the problem is? Before you could then read the financials. The financials will tell you the story too because if your way out of budget, you know, say the maintenance guy is not very good at painting so he wants to contract out every paint and your turned cost could be very, very expensive. There's a lot of you know things that you can learn from each other. That's why it's on your part.  James: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, how did you climb that ladder from porter to maintenance to becoming an owner? Glenn: It's a funny story, James, it's really funny story. To be honest with you, I'm out there trying to do work orders and I started my industry in Salt Lake City and it's really cold outside. So when you're picking up trash, you're freezing cold, especially when you're going from apartment to apartment, carrying all this stuff. Anyway, so I went and I told my boss, you know, I don't want to be a maintenance guy forever. I want to be a manager because they get to sit in the office and talk on the phone. That was my motivation, I was young. I just don't want to be out in the cold. So they're like well, we don't have any openings for maintenance guys to be managers. I'm like well just so you know, that's my next step.  So they had a 60 unit apartment complex that needed a part-time manager and a part-time maintenance guy so I said I'll take it. So I was part-time on each one of those so I got to learn the manager skill and you know talk on the phone and then I needed the work orders and make ready and I learned with this valuable lesson. Somebody moved in and they had to fill out one of those move-in checklists to make sure that the units in proper condition when people move in and they turned it into the manager after they signed the lease and it's got all these things that don't work. The stove doesn't work right, the toilet is running and the dishwasher won't cycle or whatever. So that I got to know who fixed this apartment, you need to get them back. So I'd go back later in the day and I would take my tools and change my clothes and they're like, hey, what are you doing here? I'm like, well, I'm the maintenance guy. And they're like, oh, so you're the one that got this apartment ready? I'm like, yeah, that was me. And I realized then I was not a very good maintenance guy, but that was my transition.  But I really was able to turn that apartment community around. And the problem with occupancy and revenue and it got to the point where it was doing very, very well because I kind of was able to see it from both sides. I knew how much we can rent them for but I also knew we had to get them ready first and I work my little magic as a newbie to the industry. I was very successful.  My boss recognized the success and they had another, I think, it was larger, I don't remember exactly, 200 or 300 units. It was struggling with some of the same stuff and they asked if I would go there and give him my opinion. So I went, kind of as a manager, over to this other community and found that the leasing agent and the manager were really good friends but that leasing agent wasn't very effective at all and the manager was too good of friends to fire her friend.  So I said, well, let's do one of those secret shops and do an evaluation and kind of did all that and I showed the manager. Look, you know, you're not a very good manager because you're not able to make a business decision. You've got to make changes on the leasing and that leasing agent is affecting you as a leader. So she kind of said she realized at that time that if she wasn't able to make an improvement or change it was going to stifle her own career as well. So she made that change and all the sudden, the leasing got better and collections got better and people were giving better reviews and my boss recognized that I had this knack for identifying problems. Well, then I got to oversee multiple apartment complexes and I became what's known as an area manager so I had two or three that I could oversee. So my career just started kind of progressing a little bit. I graduated college and I was supposed to be a hospital administrator and I did my internship at a hospital and I did not want to do that the rest of my life. So here I was at a crossroads, maintenance manager/hospital administrator, now what?  So I said, I'm just going to make Property Management my career. And then I just started getting more educated with real estate licensing, then I eventually got my CPM designation and I was involved with the apartment association stuff. So there you go. That's kind of how I moved up the ladder a little bit. James: So at what point did you buy your first property? I mean, syndicated or you know, start using some other.. Glenn:  Sure that's a great question. So in the time frame from that point, it was probably another, gosh, 10 or 15 years later. I was now working for a big REIT, a Real Estate Investment Trust, in the Pacific Northwest. Equity Residential, they're very big property owner-manager REIT and I was getting great experience there. Well, I had a mentor that was serving on the board of directors for the apartment association, his name is John Gibson, also from Washington. And I went to John and said John I want to buy an apartment complex one day. And I showed him this little 60 unit deal that I was analyzing. And at this time I was still a regional manager. I still got a W-2 paycheck. When I went to John and I said, "You know, tell me what you think."  And he said, "You know, you'll probably do okay."  He said, "But I have this little 44 unit apartment complex, I'll sell you and I'll make it much easier to buy."  I said, "How so?"  He's like, "You just need to come up with a $150,000 down payment and I'll carry a note back for the rest."  And I said, "Great. Let me go look at it."  So I went and looked at it and this guy wasn't managing it very well and I knew how to manage pretty well so I'm like, 'This is great, we can make money on this."  So I went to two of my friends and I said, "You guys want to go in on this apartment complex with me?"  They said, "What do we need?" I said, "$150,000."  And they said, "You know, what are the splits?"  I said, "A third, a third, a third."  And they said, "Okay."  I said, "But you each have to put up $75,000."  And they're like, "Whoa, well, for a third, a third, a third, shouldn't we split that 150,000, a third, a third, a third?" But I didn't have any money. So I'm like, "I found the deal if we're gonna make money and you guys put up the equity, you guys will get your money back before me but once we start making money, we'll split a third, a third, a third."  And those two friends said, "All right, sounds good."  We did it. We bought that apartment complex. He carried a note back and we own it for like a year and a half and we sold it for about a million dollars more than we paid for it in eight months. So that third, a third, a third, those folks were pretty happy. So the mistake I made is when I sold it, I carried back a note on part of our profits and the guy that borrowed or bought it from us has defaulted on that note. So, actually, we made a lot of money on paper, I lost half of it to a bad note. So word to the wise if you're going to be a lender to a buyer, do your homework.  James: So you seller-financed to someone else, I guess. Glenn: Yes. We still pocketed a half million dollars. So I mean we did okay, but we carried a note back. That was my very first deal, it was 44 units and it was while I was still working as an employee. James: That's very interesting because you really came from the ground up and you made that transition to a owner, you know, and you found the deal and you able to convince your friends to finance it. So at what point did you had the realization that, hey, I'm a regional now, I want to buy and why did you want that thought process came in? Why did you want to be an owner?  Glenn: Well, a couple of reasons. One, I knew that these owners that came seemed like they had a lot of money, in my mind. I assume that they were pretty rich people. They drove fancy cars and stuff and from my perspective they were wealthy. But the other one is I realized that when I got really good at property management and I increased the value of that apartment community, that owner would eventually sell that property and he would take his money and run and I would get a thank you and he would get a lot of money. And they always said, "You know, Glenn we really appreciate your property management efforts. You've done very well for us and thank you very much."  So I got a lot of thank yous, not a lot of dollars and you know, that was a motivation for me. It's like someday I wish I could trade that value for myself. My wife always encouraged me. She's like, "You know, you're really good at making other people a lot of money. Someday, you got to do that for yourself." And so that was motivation too. You get really good at Property Management, you should maybe be the owner but I didn't have any money.   James: But you have that knowledge on how to increase the NOI, which is the most important, I would say. Having a lot of money and buying assets if you do not know how to increase the NOI from the ground up, you're maybe just half-blindfolded.   Glenn: Yeah, and I think you know what made me successful later in life, is that experience and the knowledge that I had from the ground up. It gave me great insight in helping me find good deals that I could fix if they're broken. And then, later in my career about six years ago, I started to buy my own. And I remember having to raise over a million dollars on my first deal and when people realize that you have experience, you know what you're talking about and you came from the ground up, they're more likely to invest with you than they would be with somebody who has no experience,19:48inaudible]  just go syndicate deal with no experience. So, the experience really paid off in the end for me.  James: Yeah, I'm sure it's paying off right now itself. So I want to go into some of the secrets in Property Management because you are the insider. Glenn: Yeah, that's right. James: Because I mean, for me, my wife does a lot of property management and just because of the knowledge that we have in asking questions to our employees and all the employes doesn't really tell us stories. They don't tell us like it takes five days to make ready or two to three weeks to make ready and all that kind of thing. I mean, property management is a people business, there's a lot of detailed things happening inside the property management itself. And if you do not know the details, people are just going to take you for a ride. So, let's go into the details. So how would you know a leasing agent is not a good leasing agent.   Glenn: So great question, James. There are indicators that are quite obvious, but then there's some that you kind of have to peel the onion back a little bit to figure out. The first indicator is if your occupancy is struggling, where all your competitors are saying, in the 90s and your property is like in the 80s and you have enough product that's already made ready, and it's priced correctly, but gosh, people are just not leasing so that could be an indicator.  You know, there are remedies to that. You can hire a secret shopper that will come and pretend to be a renter and they will give that leasing agent an evaluation.  James: And what does the secret shopper do? Glenn: They pretend like they are an average person coming to rent an apartment. You know, they give a name, they go on a tour and they kind of evaluate whether or not the leasing agent was able to connect with them as a renter if they took them on a tour of the apartment. Mostly if they followed up to say, "You know, are you still interested in renting?" You know, some leasing agents never follow up. Some agents aren't able to connect with people like emotionally connect with people because you know renting an apartment home it's an emotional decision. There's apartments everywhere. So the only thing that makes your apartment may be different than your competitors' apartment, maybe that leasing agent.  So if the indicators are there, there are remedies but sometimes you just got to peel the onion back and what I mean by that is you just need to listen to how they talk to people. You need to get feedback from the residents. As an owner, you can always send out a little flyer or a little questionnaire. You know, we get what's called the Move-in Report, where it talks about who moved in, in the last 30 days. I look at those moving reports to see if they've hit the targets on the rent and stuff, but you can send a little questionnaire or you could even call them on the phone, as the owner, and say, "Tell me about your experience from the time you moved in till now." And that'll give you a lot of insight.  The other thing is the closing ratio. There are averages in our industry about if 10 people apply, what percent actually come back and sign a lease and move in? And that percentage could be anywhere from 30 to 40 percent of the people come back. Now, granted some of those get denied because of credit, criminal activity or addictions and we expect that. But if some leasing agent has a closing ratio of 10% or 15%, you'll want to stop and say there's a problem here because that's below the industry average. And where do you find those industry average? Well, you got to talk to people in the industry. They're not widely publicized on closing ratios but that information is readily available. You can get it through the apartment association. You can get it through people who own and operate apartments and you can just ask, network with people.  James: Yeah, and what do you do if the leasing agent gives reason saying that our apartment is priced too high? Glenn: Well, there's your 'trust but verify'; she could be right, you know, I mean if they have a low closing ratio and you as the owner said, "Hey, we renovated this unit and I know we can get a thousand dollars for these two bedroom units." And all your competitors and your leasing agent saying, "Yeah, but all my competitors are at 950 to 900 and you want 1000." If you argue with the leasing agent say, "But I spent so much money and I need to get a thousand out of this deal." You know, she's going to get frustrated and so are you. But if I were you, I'd go verify that. If the leasing agent is saying all your competitors are renting their two bedrooms at 950 and she's right, you as the owner better eat some humble pie and take her word for it. And when you get the facts verified, you better adjust your price because you may lose a good leasing agent because you're a bad owner.  James: Correct. Yeah, so it's important that because sometimes as owners. We might hear a certain performer on rents and that may not be true because you are doing it pre-closing, you know. Only when the rubber meets the road then you really know whether whatever you projected in your performer is being able to be captured on the ground. All right, and it's very skill to identify [25:41crosstalk and unintelligible]  Glenn:  That's correct. I had a boss of mine one time, he was the CEO of a company and he said this to me one time. He said, "You know if it comes down to your opinion versus my opinion, my opinion wins because I'm the owner."   He says, "But if it comes down to my opinion versus your facts and your facts are right, it doesn't really matter what my opinion is, the facts always tell the truth." That's why we do Market surveys. That's why we figure out where competitors occupancy is. And if you're a good owner, you'll realize that sometimes the information is right in front of your face talking to you and you're just not willing to listen.  James: Correct. There's a lot of data that we can use to really see whether I priced it correctly or not. Such as, how many people are applying, how many vacancies you had for that certain configuration and all that, right? Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. James: And how do you select a good property manager?  Glenn: That's a tough one. That's a really tough one. Gosh, you know I have, in my career, when I was an asset manager for Pacific property company and I think we had like 8,000 units and we had hired two or three different property management companies that did fee management for us as an owner and I was an asset manager. But some of those were some big name brand management companies that had all the bells and whistles but you know what it came down to James? It came down to two individuals, how well did that regional manager get along with that property manager and how often is that regional giving support?              If they are pretty well connected and they're good communicators, chances are all the other things will fall into place. The bills get paid on time and you know, if the manager needs some overrides or permission to the regional and they're on the same page and readily available, that property will flow better. Sometimes I've seen that a regional manager may have 9 10 11 or even 12 Assets in their portfolio. How often can an effective Regional go visit 12 Assets in a week or a month or two months? Not very often. They're going to be spread so thin.             The trick is that I know a lot of fee management companies are moving away from this but their profitability increases because they get a management fee increases when they have one fixed cost of a regional manager spread out over many assets. So from the property managers company's perspective, they may give that Regional a big portfolio to cover their salary. You, as the owner, want that portfolio to be small because you want their undivided attention, you know, so that's a good question you can ask a management company. Is how many assets are in that regional manager's portfolio and how often that manager works with your property manager on site. Those are two key elements.  And of course, the other big one is the back office. How often are they producing your financial packages and are they reconciling every month and do they catch the bounced checks fast enough? The back office, people don't really jump into as an owner, they just look at what's presented to them on the front end. So there's lots of good bells and whistles.  James: Very interesting. So what is the good ratio for regional versus property that they manage? Glenn: Yeah. That's a great question. I think an effective regional manager shouldn't have more than seven or eight assets in their portfolio. That number can go up to 9 or 10 if all those properties are maybe smaller or they've got one manager that oversees two or three that helps or they're all stabilized. They are all stabilized in their the assets and they're all doing very well with the regional, then they could then handle more.             But if the regional manager has a new lease up or repositioning or undergoing a renovation or you're trying to change the demographic a little bit, those are very, very time-consuming. And if that's the case, you don't want them to have more than five in their portfolio.  So there's a big range. Variables are stabilized in the size and then the complexity of the assets that are in the portfolio. James: Yeah, yeah, that's a very interesting feedback on the regional because as you know, and I know is that property management is a business of issues, daily issues which a lot of asset managers don't want to touch. They say that is a thankless job, we do not want to touch it and all that. But how important do you think Property Management, in terms of the efficiency or the NOI optimization of a multi-family? Glenn: Again, it comes down to that regional manager and the property manager. You know, I guess the fixed costs are you know, some property managers charge you more, a larger percentage of the management fee. That's a cost that's going to affect your NOI. The property management company has to have some buying power. Hopefully, they buy so many carpets and so much paint that they get significant discounts on the product that they purchase and they pass that right along to you as the owner, that would be a great benefit.  You know, if you're paying, call it $10 a yard for carpet installed and the property management company can get it done for eight or nine, that's pretty significant overall your Capex. So all those are little variables that you need to kind of ask what kind of benefit you get as the owner. And some of them are the opposite. They're very expensive, some of them pay for very expensive software for the property management and they pass it right along to you the owner and you're, "Gosh, this is expensive every month." And then you start asking about this fee and that fee and there's like an accounting fee on top of the property management fee. They charge you a fee for processing your own payroll and like, "Why am I paying you to process my payroll? Isn't that part of the services?"  And they're like, "Oh, no that's an extra."  So, you know, gosh darn, you just got to dive into it, to be honest with you. That's a good question. It's really complicated. Call me and we'll talk offline. James: Yeah. That's good. Glenn: I used to be a property management company,[32:56crosstalk] and I know there are areas that the management company wants to make money on. James: Correct. Correct.  Glenn: It doesn't always benefit the owner. It benefits the management company. James: Yes, but I mean we have to understand property management is also a lot of work and they are the backbone of your operation. So choosing the right property management and how the profit centers and all that is how everybody... Glenn: Yeah. James if you step back and you realize sometimes it's worth paying those little fees to these property management companies if they're really good at what they do. Because if you step back, they're really good at what they do, they're going to make you Millions on your asset. if they're not very good at what they do, they're going to lose you Millions on your asset. And here's the key; sometimes they just make excuses on why they're poor performers. And I struggled with a very large management company at 30,000 units. I owned a 650 unit apartment complex up in Dallas and my occupancy was going down and down and down and the bad debt was going up and up and up and I'm like, "What the world is going on here?"  And they said, "Well, the market, the sub-market is getting worse."  And I scratch my head and I said, "Well, how could that be? Because our competitors are 94 and you're like 81."  They're like, "Well, that's because they have just filled it up with junk people."  And I'm like, "I talked to the owner of that one and they said their delinquencies are only like two and a half percent. You guys are like seven. I mean that doesn't an add up either."  So what's really going on and they were a mess. They were going through changes up above and they had two Regionals that quit because of leadership and the property manager had quit because she didn't like the management company and my 650 unit was struggling financially now after it had just had its best year. Her name was Letty, she was the property manager for us for a year year and a half. When Letty left, everything unraveled and I ended up having to terminate that management contract and I gave it to a different management company and they were very successful. And they turned it all around and I ended up selling that complex about a year and a half after the new property management took over. And guess what? They out-performed all of a sudden and it was the same submarket, it was the same community. So all the excuses the previous management company gave me was just a bunch of BS.  James: Yeah. Yeah. It takes a lot of leadership to really fire property management because as an asset manager who just know asset management your hands are tied. You can listen to one excuse this month and next month, I'm going to give you the same excuses. But at what point do you make that call saying that, okay, these guys are not good? So it's very hard for you to make that call if you do not know the details and how to read the financials; as you say, you know the owner on the comps, right? Glenn: Yeah. James: But not everybody knows the owners. So, how do they find out? It could be very well true that if [36:07inaudible] so do you have some tips on how to identify bad property management? One point should be fine.  Glenn: I know a couple of them by name.  James: We don't need names.  Glenn: I can't say it on the podcast; call me. How do you identify? Here's one indicator. There's a lot of turnover for some key people. You know if the bookkeepers are quitting and the regional managers are quitting and the property managers are quitting; if you can't have access to interview all those people and talk to them about why they're quitting, you're losing out on an opportunity, but that will tell you, that's an indicator. By nature, I think we turn over about 30 percent of the site people a year, you know. One of the indicators that I chart so if you're up to 40 50 percent of your site people move, including your maintenance guys and releasing agent, but if you're up above 30%, there's a problem. Either with the leadership or how it functions or they just can't get enough training. There's something going on because people don't just walk away from their jobs. And the way to indicate a good one, management company, is if they've got long-term employees that stay with them long term over and over and over again. So there are some indicators there.  And your intuition; let me just address that. If for some reason a property management company is telling you excuses over and over and over again and in your mind, it doesn't add up but your guts telling you something's not right here, I would say trust your intuition because there's probably something not right there. James: Got it. Got it. Let's go back to, as you said, the most important person in the whole pipeline for an owner, asset manager. So you have leasing agent, you have property manager, you have Regional and you have the property management leadership. So you said, if I remember correctly, Regional is the most important on how they communicate and... Glenn: The regional and the property manager those two together.  James: So how do you identify the qualities of a good regional?  Glenn: Yeah, you know the good regionals, you can always tell if they're pretty effective because you can ask them a question about, you know, call it turnover expenses or you know, we notice this big expense for HVAC, you know that Regional says, "You know what? I noticed that too because the manager had booked it up in the operating expenses and I reclassify it to Capex."  And if the regional knows what's going on, how the property is spending their money and where they're booking it and she just knows it or he knows it right off the bat, they're on it, and they are on it and you should be very grateful that they're watching your asset and your financials pretty effectively.  Now if you ask a regional manager, 'Hey, what's going on? Why did it go up?"  And she's like, "I've no idea. Let me get back with you."  And you're like, "okay, get back to me, let’s talk. " And she never he never gets back with you and you send them another email says, "You know, what did you find out? I mean, our NOI took a dip 10 grand this month and it's been pretty consistent, what's going on?"  If you have to follow more than one or two times, dude, you've got a problem. They're not looking at your bottom line. They're not talking to their manager and they're certainly not watching your asset.  James: Got it. Got it. Okay. It's very interesting. Let's go to a bit more personal side. Is there any moment in your whole career when you started in real estate up to now, is there a proud moment that you always remember, you're going to remember that proud moment for your whole life? Glenn: That's a good question. You should have given me some lead time on that. James: I'm really proud that I did that. It could be anything.  Glenn: You know, I think part of it is a feeling of satisfaction that I get. You know when we syndicated deals, when we bring investors together, when we take that money that they've trusted us with and we apply it to the apartment complex and we do what we said we were going to do. We renovate the office and we raise the rents. And then, down the road, you step back and you look at the community and I go, "Wow! This actually looks better than it did when we buy it." And then it feels better and our delinquencies are going down. It's almost like your baby. It's like your kid, your little offspring. Like I'm so proud of this community.  And then you sell that and you give all the investors back their money and they call you on the phone, "Glenn, dude, I'm so happy. You actually did what you said you were gonna do and did better than we expected." To be honest with you, I get so much satisfaction out of that and I like making other people money, you know. And when that happens, they don't mind sharing the profits with me. And now, I'm making money so it's not always about the money, but it's about doing what you said you were going to do and doing it well and kind of being the best in the industry. Not all deals have gone has planned, not all deals have been successful and those are tough pills to swallow but I think, for the most part, my greatest in my career is seeing the magic that we work and executing the plan, I love that. And then there is one other if you don't mind me sharing? James: Sure, absolutely. Glenn: There's a gentleman that was a maintenance guy that would come and talk about if you spend this, you know, I think we need more rent. If you fix this over here and you know, I mean really, I wouldn't do anything on the one bedrooms because we have so many of them we can't even random, you know, but we can make a lot more than that. I took that maintenance guy and I said, "Have you ever thought about being a property manager?" He's like, "No way, there's no way; that's the last job I want."  I'm like, "But you think like a property manager."  And this is just a deal here at Austin that I was managing as a fee manager and I convinced him; I said, "Dude, you could do this."             And he did. He got out of his comfort zone and we moved him from outside to inside and he was the same way. He was so effective, I love the way he processed. And his name is Louis and Louis was a very good manager. He had a wife and a child and he was later moonlighting for a company for Best Buy, you know, he was working in the evenings and on weekends and stuff to make ends meet for his family. And we were at lunch one time, talking and I saw what he had done for the community. The occupancy went up, it had stabilized and he was right. We were making more money on the two bedrooms and I told Louis, I said, "Louis, why don't you quit? How much are you making at Best Buy a month?"  He said, "I get an extra eight or nine hundred dollars a month by working kind of part-time, on the weekends." And I said, "If you were able to just devote more time to the community, do you think you can make it more money?" He said, "I just can't afford to not."  So I told him, I said, "Let me raise your pay by a thousand dollars a month if you quit that job."   And I said, "Then, you could be a better husband. You could be a better father to your kid and you won't be so stressed. You don't have to work every single weekend because you're going to get burned out, you're going to get sick and then you're eventually going to quit."  And he's a grown man, he just started crying. Right there at lunch, it was kind of uncomfortable. He's like, "Why would you do that for me?"  I said, "Because I see in you great things, Louis."  And I said, "You should be a better dad and a better father to your child. If you're gone all the time, you're going to look back and you're going to say it wasn't worth it."  So the community had benefited so much from this guy, it could afford to give him a $12,000 a year raise and it would have zero effect on the properties bottom line because he had increased in a while. And he stood up with tears in his eyes and he's like, "I'm gonna go give notice."  I said, "And I'm gonna raise your pay this afternoon." And he gave me a big hug, and we've been friends ever since. He's very successful. But that was a proud moment where I identified that it's not always just about the money. It's also about being a good dad, a good husband and have less stress in your life. And sometimes we could take real estate and make dreams happen for people. Now, that was a good moment in my life. You know, it wasn't that long ago.  James: It's very fulfilling when you impact people's life. I mean you can make money in many ways. Glenn: That's right. James: You make a few million dollars and then you forget about it and you give it to investors and you forget about it. But when you impact someone it follows you throughout your life and you remember that's a big impact, you can't really put a monetary value. Glenn: Yeah. James:  And I've had REIT investors who when I paid them back through refi, they were like happy, "Oh, okay. I really needed this money and you gave it to me." It was just like a mind-blowing thing to me because I didn't really think that they really need that money. I mean, some people just invest hundreds of thousands of dollars and we give, you know, a hundred thousand back to them. They are like, "Wow! It's like I needed this money and you gave it to me. I'm so happy." So yeah, it's very fulfilling. Glenn: Fulfilling, yeah. That's neat. Yeah.  James: So do you have any secret sauce for your success? Glenn: Do the right thing, in the right place at the right time, little bit of luck. I do a lot of praying, help from above and just do the right thing. You know, I mean, I've gone through business relationship changes with business partners because we're not always aligned with doing the right thing and I say if you really want to be successful, just always do the right thing and what comes around goes around. James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think one thing that I want to share with the audience is that I know about you and another buyer which is part of our same masterminds when you had details of that property which had a chiller system when it was down like one or two weeks before closing. And you had a choice whether you want to disclose it to the buyer or not and you made the choice of disclosing it, which is I think it's absolutely, the right thing to do. [47:15unintelligible]  Glenn: Not only did I disclose it, James, I also bought the buyer a new Chiller.  James: Absolutely. Glenn: He was already passed his due diligence, he was closing on it. He couldn't come back and re-trade me, his earnest money was more than a chiller so I could have just said it is what it is. I could have put a bandaid on it. But this is a small world we live in. And I've had business partners that have said, "Well, actually you don't have to tell them that kind of stuff." And inside my heart, I think I do. So I bought the guy a new chiller and he heard about that and he picked up the phone and he called me directly.  A lot of times the buyers and the sellers don't always talk to each other because they have brokers that represent them and then they have attorneys that work stuff out. But he called me on the phone. He's like, "I just want to say, thank you."  And I said, "You're welcome."  And I said, "You know, it's a small world and I know how I would feel if the roles were reversed."  And I was buying an apartment complex and I got stuck with a pretty big bill and somebody had knowledge of it because that actually happened to me. I bought Oaks Creek up in Dallas, a 280 unit deal and after due diligence and even after you know, we should have caught it but we didn't, there was a couple of buildings that had questionable foundation issues and my Engineers didn't catch me with my contractors.  Later I found out that the owner knew about it, the seller and I said, "Why didn't you tell me I could have just budgeted for it and fix it? Now, I've got to figure out how to scramble to pay for it because it's not on my rehab budget." He said, "Gosh, I just didn't feel like it was you know, I didn't want to tell you because I don't want you to re-trade me."  I'm like, "Yeah, I wouldn't have re-traded you. I just wish you'd have told me because I could have raised a little extra money to fix it." Anyway, just what comes around goes around. Secret Sauce, do the right thing. You also have to analyze your numbers. With 30 years of experience, when I come across deals today, I will jump in and I will verify rents, I'll verify rehab, I'll look at how we're going to finance it and some sponsors like me or you, we don't do this but some people do and they just convince themselves that it's still a good deal even though the numbers don't say so or like, "Oh, my guts telling me that we're gonna make a ton of money." "Uuuh, I don't know, man. The comps suggest that you're not."  And like, "Well, the taxes aren't really going to go up that high." I'm like, "Yeah, it's going to go up pretty [49:54inaudible]  and so the insurance."  So people convince themselves that you know, not to listen to reality. Well, Secret Sauce, listen to reality, be honest with yourself. Listen, the numbers don't lie. You might lie to yourself but the numbers aren't gonna lie to you if you do your homework.  James: It's so hard nowadays, I think for newbies, especially, who want to get started. I mean, they've been looking for deals for many, many months, sometimes years and they feel so frustrated because the market is good and everybody's a champion. A bull market, everybody's making money. Like I need to get jumping in to buy something. And even though they find the numbers are not really strong, I mean, you have to make a lot of aggressive assumptions. And then, they just go ahead and do it. It's very hard for them. I can understand that but it is what it is. I mean, real estate is not forgiving in a downturn.  We have been in an upturn for the past nine years and a lot of mistakes has been [50:52inaudible] Glenn: Well, here's a little Golden Nugget for our current environment. So interest rates are down. I believe they were kind of reaching the top. Everybody talks about that. Well, one way to mitigate your risk is when you buy a deal in today's market and here's what I'm doing is I actually raise extra money for my investors for a rainy day fund. It's not applied to anything whatsoever. It's just going to sit in the checking account as an emergency. Well, you know, you kind of have to pay some preferred return sometimes or a return to investors for all that extra money, but I'm doing that in my own personal acquisitions just so that I don't ever have to go back into a cash call to an investor and I know things will come up that I can't foresee and the market is gonna take a couple bumps. Well, I'm preparing for that now so, FYI. James: Got it. Very good tips over there. What is the advice for newbies who want to be like you? Glenn: Yeah. Be better than me. I think it's important for people that want to get in the industry to actually latch on and become friends with and partner with somebody that's done it before. It doesn't mean you have to form a company together and you don't have to be long-term, but at least do one deal with somebody who's done it over and over again. You're going to learn so much just by having a mentor friend on one transaction. And once you've been through a full cycle or something with somebody holding your hand and don't be afraid about giving up some of your money to that person or the profits, you know, you will get much more out of the education and the experience and then you can go do it on your own without those people after you've done it once or twice.  Some people like to just jump in and say I can do this. That's my advice, I would do that. James: Got it. Got it. This is a very exciting and inspiring advice. Let me go to one last question before I let you go, Glen. Why do you do what you are doing on a daily basis?  Glenn: Oh, man. It doesn't feel like work James. I kind of work and I look the deals and I just love it. I mean, it doesn't feel like work and I could have been a hospital administrator that feel like work. I didn't want to do that for the rest of my life. For some reason, I'm just attracted to this and I get to pick and choose who I do business with. I get to can pick and choose which brokers I like to do business with. I get to put together a team of people that I like to do business with. Not just people in the office but partners that I do business with; investors, lenders, I get to pick all that and you can do business with whoever you want to do business with and you can be kind of in control of your own destiny and it's fun. That's why I do what I do, James.  James: Awesome. Awesome. Glenn:  My question is James, why do you do what you do?   James: I that a real question? Glenn: Yeah, It's a real question. James:  Actually, no one has ever asked me that question when I ask that question but that's a really good question. I do what I do because I'm trying to make a big impact in the world.  So real estate is just a tool for me. I mean, basically, my reason would be how I impact. I mean, I love impacting other people's life. I mean, you say it, you made an impact to those employees lives and we make, as real estate entrepreneurs, we make impacts into many people's lives, into the communities lives, into our employees' lives. We also give a lot of donations out. And how do I impact orphans, kids who are orphans in the third world country and we pay a lot of money for their education and all that. So impacting their lives and it gives you fulfillment. I mean that's why I do what I do.  Glenn: I love it. I love it. You ask me hard questions. I get asked you one at the very end. You want to make a difference in the world, I think it's awesome.  James: Yeah, yeah. As I said you can make money and you can forget about how much you made after a few years but impacting people's lives, when you really see that you've touched someone's life in a big way that comes with you until you die so that's important. Glenn: James, you're a good man.  James: Thank you. Glenn: You're putting together some cool deals, you're writing a book and you invite people like me to come on your show and share our story and I just think you're a pretty cool guy, man. Thank you. James: Thank you. Yeah, why not tell our audience and listeners, how to get hold of you, how to get in touch with you.  Glenn: Oh, yeah. Yeah. So my phone number... James: You're really gonna give your phone number? Glenn: Yeah. 5 1 2 9 3 7 5 9 6 4 and I have an email address glenn@obsidiancapitalco.com  And you can also go to the website, we're there too.  James: Thank you very much, Glenn, for being on the show and sharing all your awesome tips. We have so much value in terms of property management, in terms of your personal thought process and that's what I want to get out of the podcast because sometimes, as I said, it's not only making money it's also what's behind the person. That's why I do this podcast.  Glenn: To make a difference in the world. Thanks, James. James: Exactly. Thank you very much. Talk to you soon.  Glenn: Ok.  James: Bye.

In comics,The Ultimate Nullifier is a tiny, complex, even mysterious device that, when used as a weapon, more or less erases its user, their target, and the planet they both occupy. Today, I received the picture-postcard you sent me, the one with "Thinking of you!" scrawled on the back, as if to teach me that in real life, destroying two people and a reality requires only simple - even conventional - measures. This week, the Miracles in Manhattan Podcast talks about Lesson 10 of A Course in Miracles...and other matters. Things get funny. Talking points include: A pretty-good AI, or: WE HAVE TRANSCRIPTS!!!  2019 resolution: podcast from the astral plane Experience = perception - thoughts. (And other basic maths) Pablo Picasso was never called an a$$h0l3. Not in New York Marco shows that talking about Zen - isn’t very “Hi! Nothing means anything to me!” (A MiM-approved first-date convo starter.) Steph talks to dead people, but doesn't laugh   The Mountain Goats. The Orpheus Protocol. Let’s tangent.  We’re taking life-questions. Email us! miraclesinmanhattan@gmail.com (Usual MiM suspects also appear: advice, ACIM, A Course in Miracles, true crimes, true mind, comedy, pain, The Present, Love, Dating, Race, BDSM, the body, Spirit, Self-help, Spirituality) Find more content at miraclesinmanhattan.com | @Wildmanhattan (t) | #Podernfamily   TRANSCRIPT: In praise of meaningless thoughts. ACIM. Miracles in Manhattan. Marco Maisto and Rev. Stephanie Wild. Produced by Wild Stories and Rogue Signal Studios, NYC. Marco: [00:00:06] Summer has broken its chokehold. Sometimes highs are in the 70s. It's back to school season. [00:00:17] It's lovely day to be in New York City. [00:00:23] Welcome to Miracles in Manhattan. [00:00:31] My thoughts do not mean anything. It's going to be a lot easier to podcast on the astral plane because I have to say when we get there. Yeah. Because all we have to do is think stuff. Yes. And then everyone knows it. Marco: [00:00:51] Hi and welcome back to Miracles in Manhattan. The show where two spiritual delinquents lead you through a course in miracles trying to wake up in the city that never sleeps. I'm Marco here with my good friend, the Reverend Stephanie Wild. How are you and the upgrade? Stephanie: [00:01:09] I am absolutely great today. Thank you. Beautiful weather. I will. Stephanie: [00:01:15] I did a lot of walking through the city. It's just been so nice. The leaves are changing. Gorgeous. [00:01:25] Get to watch me plug in plugs for two hour hour and. It might have been my story. Let's let's split the difference at three. Stephanie: [00:01:33] Sure. Cool. But you know what? It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter because all is good. I just looked around the room and. Stephanie: [00:01:43] Realize that there's a market don't mean anything. Yes. Oh, OK. That's part of the gig. People know what they're in for. It's so funny. You notice those things. I just don't ever notice them. Marco: [00:01:56] I loved it. I noticed them on behalf of the listener. Stephanie: [00:01:59] Yeah, well, that's part of your job. I guess a part of my job is not denied. So, yes, I have a trick like when I'm meditating and something like that happens. [00:02:13] I've trained my subconscious mind to use that as a signal to go deeper into meditation. [00:02:18] It's interesting when I'm in a meditative state, that sort of thing doesn't bother me the way it does no better. But I haven't done what you just said. That's interesting. Mm hmm. Yeah, it's going to be a lot easier to podcast on the astral plane is all I have to say when we get there. Stephanie: [00:02:35] Yeah. Because all we have to do is think stuff. Stephanie: [00:02:39] Yes. And then everyone knows it. Marco: [00:02:43] Exactly. Throw away your iPhone. Cool. All right. So we're gonna want to take a shot, I believe. Let's turn. Stephanie: [00:02:52] Yeah. Let's try this in ten. So. So listen, ten is. My thoughts do not mean anything. So if you if you remember a little while ago we did. Lesson 4 and lesson 4 was these thoughts do not mean anything. So now we're taking it a little further and linking the idea to ourselves our own thoughts. And if you remember also lesson eight, because we're slowly building right step by step. So if you meant the lesson eight, it says, my mind is preoccupied with past thoughts and we've learned that. Our thoughts are all about the past. Marco: [00:03:48] So if our thoughts are all about the past, then they can't be true because right now we're in this present moment. Stephanie: [00:04:01] And we're just reinforcing that, we're just reinforcing that, except we're applying it to our own thoughts and less than 10. Again, my thoughts did not mean anything. Marco: [00:04:16] Let me ask you a clarifying question. What you just said is that to say that that a preoccupation with think with thoughts written in the past is in itself meaningless. Stephanie: [00:04:29] Or counterproductive. Stephanie: [00:04:34] Preoccupation. Yes. Right. Okay. Yes. OK. So it says here in lesson 10. That we are emphasizing that the presence of thoughts means that we are not, in fact thinking this is merely another way of repeating our earlier statement that our mind is really a blank. So that's true mind. It's a blank, right? Stephanie: [00:05:10] Which means we if it's a blank when it's blank. We are experiencing the present moment and that is reality. But when we're thinking we're living in the past and that is not reality. Stephanie: [00:05:27] That's all it is. OK. That's all it is. Marco: [00:05:32] That seems to put a lot a heavy burden on perception and doesn't it? If the. Stephanie: [00:05:38] That's right. We're dismantling perceptions. Perception is not reality. Right. True perception. Stephanie: [00:05:47] I mean, yeah, he's is, but thought it's not a true perception, right? Yeah. Marco: [00:05:56] Somebody who is a in the art world kind of told me something maybe relative relevant to that. If you look at kind of mid to later Picasso portraits, you'll notice that as soon as he gets away from kind of a realistic style. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. The first thing that happens is that the eyes go sideways. That's the no. They're on the same plane. Stephanie: [00:06:22] Like to me, The Philistine: "Yeah. The eyes go sideways, dude!" Yeah. They look weird, right? Yeah. Marco: [00:06:29] I guess according to this person that was sort of his engagement with with with truly perceiving without thinking about the subject Lou. Stephanie: [00:06:40] Oh OK. Yeah. Marco: [00:06:41] Later to be taken up by Kandinsky in point. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. I just said so many things that we @ me. Stephanie: [00:06:50] Please don't ask me for any of that. No, we're just a couple of spiritual delinquents, which is a couple of people just sort of bumbling around in a net. Stephanie: [00:06:58] That helps me actually. Yeah. Yeah. No wonder I like Picasso so much though, that era. Well whatever period. Isn't that the proper word. Yeah. Stephanie: [00:07:08] Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, let me let me describe the exercise and then we can talk some more. So this is the way we do this exercise. Stephanie: [00:07:19] We close our eyes and we repeat the lesson. My thoughts do not mean anything. And then we add this idea will help to release me from all that I now believe. We search our mind for all the thoughts that are available to us without selecting any specific ones or judging them or classifying them. [00:07:44] It says here, and I think this is a useful tip we can imagine that we're watching and oddly assorted procession going by, which has little, if any, personal meaning to you. So as each thought crosses our mind, we say my thought about this doesn't mean anything. I thought about that doesn't mean anything. And repeat, this idea will help to release me from all that I now believe. So there's a few things it sort of almost like a little set of mantras or something. Marco: [00:08:17] Mm hmm. Stephanie: [00:08:19] And it says here that where to do this five times a day for no more than a minute each and we can do it for less time if we experience discomfort. [00:08:30] Right. [00:08:32] Would you recommend somebody do that exercise? Indoors versus outdoors versus what kind of setting? [00:08:41] Oh, it doesn't matter because it's only about our thoughts. We're not actually looking around ourselves this time, but we're applying this to our thoughts. [00:08:48] So you could be anywhere, just you could close your eyes, open the movie, anywhere. Why do you ask that? [00:08:56] I think it's well, because, again, because I think there is a perceptual component ultimately to this. It is an interesting exercise to do both in a room where nothing's happening and also on a street where a procession of meaningless objects is passing. [00:09:15] Except that it says close your eyes for these exercise. And I didn't listen to them. [00:09:21] Close your eyes and then repeat. My thoughts do not mean anything. This idea will help to release me from all that I now believe. My thought about this doesn't mean anything. My thought about that doesn't mean anything. [00:09:31] This idea will help to release me from all that I now believe. [00:09:36] The other the other ones are. That was a good suggestion at the earlier expense, but my suggestion that can be applied. [00:09:43] But you have to figure out which products to apply them to you yet that that whole thing couldn't sound more zen. Oh yeah. They can get closer to the kind of zen practice. You couldn't be closer. Pretty much, yeah. I mean, the idea of a lot of ways it's about again, separating things from. The associations we have with them, right, might be they personal or you know, that being a bottle of cologne and a coffee cup and what I feel about those, right. [00:10:19] My thought about this cologne doesn't mean anything. Yeah, yeah. My thought about that coffee doesn't mean anything. [00:10:25] And again, in one of my Facebook dating groups, someone popped up. [00:10:32] Maybe you should clarify that because I've had to ask you what that means. Facebook dating group is a group is not a group of people on Facebook trying to date. [00:10:40] Oh, no, no, no. What is it? It's a it's a group where people talk about dating people outside the group online usually. You know, it's it's a lot of women kvetching about online dating. Sure. Sure. There's one of them, I mean, which has men in it, too, which is, I think, a bit more useful. Yeah. Yeah. What's it called? [00:11:04] You know, boy, that couldn't be less relevant. I'll look it up. [00:11:08] Yeah. I mean three or four of unlikely, you know. But anyway, so this this is popped up. Woman's dating a guy. I get how long. [00:11:19] Not terribly long, not months, but not more than weeks. And she met him for lunch or something and he was dropping her off at her office or something anyway, and she goes to take a selfie with him together. [00:11:33] Oh, Sophie. He goes on a first date. No, no, no, no, no. This is after us. More more than weeks, but less than months. Like it's within the first 90 days of dating, let's say. But they've been on a bunch of dates. So that's a move that the moment. Yeah. It was a moment. It was a thing. Yeah. So he goes, oh, that's not my good side. Oh. And get out of it and get out of it, you know. And then I got out of the shop. Yeah. I wouldn't let her do it. So she's all like what the fuck. [00:11:59] You know, I like what does this mean. You know, she's seeing someone else. It was really rude. I'm really upset. I went home and cried for two hours and. Mm hmm. So, I mean, this is this is really a great example. Like her thoughts don't mean anything about that. There's no way she could know, right. Unless she asks him or a psychic or comes to me to ask me, what do you think, what it meant? Because me, for example, I put selfies on social media all the time with anyone. I mean, I took one in the street. This guy got me to sign up for this thing and took a selfie with him. [00:12:38] Yeah. Often without notifying. Yeah. Yeah. As in the cases when I find myself online, I don't know that I'm gonna do that deal with. Yeah. We need to talk about that later anyway. [00:12:53] And then other people don't put that Sophie's online at all. Ever. They might especially teachers, public school teachers. Sure. So. And then I did have a moment with my former boyfriend where he got really squarely about me taking a selfie. [00:13:12] And that was because he was cheating on me and he didn't want his girlfriend cause. Right. And so these are completely different, different behaviors. [00:13:20] But the last one that you named. Yeah, I would. I'm just gonna go ahead and say that I would. Yeah. I think that that's gonna be the first thing to mind that it was the first thing to her mind. Right. And it's unfortunate because if you just by virtue of all the other things that you named. Even statistically, it's its tenth the most likely reason not to be in a selfie. For me, again, it it would tell it is 100 percent about. This is a step towards solidifying a relationship. [00:13:55] Yes. And I am making a change. And that's what she was upset about because it signaled to her that he was not willing to take that step forward. Yeah, I see. But she also thought that she was. He was seeing some. Yeah. And that's why he wasn't willing. Right. So she might, too. She did assumptions. [00:14:14] Yeah, but you know, lesson 10, my thoughts don't mean anything like she could have avoided all this upset if she'd done these exercises. [00:14:21] You know, my thoughts don't mean anything. You can still find out. You can still ask. You can meditate. You can improve your intuition. You can do all that stuff without getting a broken heart, without getting crying for two hours, without wasting that energy and time. [00:14:37] Now, you don't need to be so attached to your thoughts, which in fact, don't mean anything. [00:14:43] All right. We're less than ten in what makes sense very much to be called the Course in Miracles, because this is a very tall order that's being asked of somebody. [00:14:55] And it does it not? Yes. Yes. And that's why we do it step by step by step, little by little by little. This way. That way. Just for a minute at a time. All right. [00:15:08] But, you know, as it says here in this exercise, this idea will help to release me from all that I now believe and that release is such a relief. [00:15:18] You know. Yeah. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I have experience I've definitely experienced prolonged moments at that stage, right. Where my what you said was released for more than a blink or where my wife where I was not invested in the putting meaning into my thoughts where I was. Right. Oh you from that release from. Yeah, sometimes by accident. And then after a lot of practice, sometimes, you know, on purpose. And it's been great. It's it's not. And it is probably a very its course is the natural state. It's a very natural state. But it's not one that's easily. You know, it's not easy to bounce back into without consistent press. [00:15:59] Right. It's a habit. It's a new habit of thinking, which is exactly what a course in miracles is all about. [00:16:05] I feel like if you master the skill and and walked into a first date, you would you would. It would be like dating an alien. It would be like dating. [00:16:12] You mean da man? I would be the star man. [00:16:15] I yeah, if I like sat down next across from somebody I had meeting for the first time and just like spoke truly from my heart about, you know, a world where I was not associating meetings to things. It it's just not the culture. But I think that. [00:16:32] Well. Well, I mean, just trying to imagine. You know, I don't walk into dates and start talking about how nothing means anything to me. [00:16:39] No. [00:16:40] I mean, if you had dinner date in this state of state of mind, right? Well, you bet I do. [00:16:46] Maybe you're right. Maybe, um, that's that's what I do. Yeah. And. [00:16:52] But so. But the thing is, see, we only need like a little bit of ego. This is all about dismantling the ego. We only need as much ego as it takes just to have a personality and not to be like dummy, man, dummy. [00:17:08] There would look what I said or whatever, you know. Right. Oh, I see. And I like that believable object. Yeah. [00:17:20] So how do you keep my personality? Sure. Sure. Sure, sure. But this is how I walk around. [00:17:29] Right. [00:17:30] And you know, the thing that the one thing that can be offensive to people is if I laugh at something that is conventionally serious, subject to a traumatic subject or a tragic event. Example, please. Well, I had a client the other day and she is a hospice nurse. And as we started our work, she was giggling. And and we were talking about. She was wondering, you know, is this her purpose on earth? Is she doing the right thing, moving to this new career? [00:18:07] And Spirit was was revealing that. Yes, it absolutely was, because she saw death as a joyful transition. Now she has to be very careful not to laugh and be very, very happy when people are dying, right? [00:18:26] Yeah. Yeah. [00:18:31] So, yeah, that is it's funny you should say. Yeah, that's weird. I come from a family where we're all forms of a tragedy. Maiming and horror are met with like a moment of acknowledgement followed by like let's make this somehow funny. Yes. Therapeutic and also horrible. [00:18:58] Yeah. There's I'm not sure if it's different from gallows humor. [00:19:00] I think that's a step towards it. I think my client was beyond that. It wasn't about gallows at all. It was truly a joyful transition, which is just how I see it. But I think gallows humor is really can be really healthy and a really good step towards it can be. [00:19:18] And thirty nine years of it straight is is something other than helpful. [00:19:26] Yeah. Well, right. I mean especially. And then if you're drinking it down, you know, you're having a week or whatever is you know, and you're drinking it all down. You know, that's not really helpful. [00:19:33] But yeah. What do we laugh at today? It was a song you played me and we laugh. Oh, I laughed really hard at some lyric. Oh, well, it was it was it it took all the coke in town to bring down Dennis Brown. No, it was it was a little be that song, but it was a long before that about shooting. Was Kurt Cobain, was it that. No, it wasn't a about one too, by the way. It was a good one, too. So here in the mountain songs, we you know, we're about walking into and shooting people. [00:20:01] Uh. Oh, pumping full of lead. Right. [00:20:07] What's it like trying to remember? We're going to get back to you on that. But I always I'm going to bribe the officials. I'm going to kill all the judges. I don't know. Mountain Goats. The sunset tree. It's on there anyway. [00:20:21] I'll have it by the end. But it was funny because I heard you laughing behind me and I was like, God. Not that many people in my life would laugh at this. Like I'm laughing. [00:20:30] It's right. And I'll tell you honestly, at least me at least one of those points, I think my laughter was half conscious because. I was. I knew what content was coming home, as much as I know you and know you, not to kind of like being offended by anything you know or need like sort of a trigger warning. That's not the term looking to use, but I have coloration. Yeah, I heard a much better term medium than that. Oh, just so content. The content preparation content till morning again. Content with something like that. I don't know heard. I've heard the Orpheus product content doesn't very well. It's beginning of episodes where in fiction something that could then content warning is not a bad way of doing it. But anyway. Yep. Right. So although you are not one to need much of that in my experience. Part of that laughter was to say. I know that this line is kind of fucked, huh? Yeah, I think. But after that, you know, can I can I pause? Yes. We should have maybe discussed earlier, but we don't. We're at episode 10 now. Episode 10, maybe eleven. Well, it's less than 10. Less than 10. Yes. But we're it we're a little bit into the podcast now. I don't really know if the listeners know what it means when you say I was working with a client. [00:22:01] Oh yeah. Right. So I'm a psychic medium and spiritualist minister and my clients come to me for help with spiritual growth. [00:22:13] And they sometimes have very specific questions like can I please talk to my recently deceased brother about what he wants to do about the will? Yeah. Huh? Yeah. Very useful. And other times it's like I'm being haunted in my dreams. [00:22:31] Or does this mean or I'm seeing things? Am I insane or it's helped me deal with my mother, who has always armors and I want to grow with this spiritual challenge so it can run the gamut. You know, it's ministering and it's psychic medium shaped like a psychic therapist. [00:22:53] Right. Okay. That's really funny. There's. The aforementioned Orpheus protocol features a character who is a psychic psychiatrist. [00:23:04] Oh, really? Would be the best psychiatrist. Well, that's what I'm saying. Everyone should come to me because I can tell you what people in your life are thinking. You don't have to, like, go round and run around about it, but you can't read minds. That's the one. [00:23:17] Oh, I do. Tune in. I can't. No. I should say I can't tell you what they're thinking. I can tell you what they're feeling. [00:23:23] Right. But if you could read minds, you would know that I was gonna bring us on this huge tangent, which I did. [00:23:29] Well, even if I could read minds, I have to choose to do it. So this is people thing. People think I walk around like knowing everything. [00:23:34] But no, that would be fucking magic. Goddamn nightmare. Yes, I know. I don't. I don't do that. I don't. I don't do that. Did you turn on and off? So where the hell are we now? Well, our thoughts don't mean anything, that's all. [00:23:51] We have to live in the moment. And this is an exercise to do it. Yeah, me think, you know, how do you think? [00:24:01] So let's say you work on this lesson and you start. You get getting it. It's working for you. What sort of outcomes might you. What? What? What things might you expect to see? Experience differently in your day to day question? [00:24:18] Yeah, totally, yeah. Well, it means you won't be upset so much like the the woman I mentioned, you know, someone's like jumping out of a selfie and you'll go, huh? And you'll get curious about it as opposed to attached to your own thought. Which leads to a painful emotion. And pretty soon, eventually, pretty soon, eventually, you won't be afraid of a broken heart. [00:24:46] And that that to me is something I would love to give to people, especially women, to go into dates, to go into relationships romantically, especially, but even with children and pair dying parents to go into them without being afraid of being hurt, because then you can live fully as opposed to living half way because you're afraid and you're putting up walls or getting defensive. [00:25:18] Okay. Can you tell? God it. [00:25:24] Oh, sorry. [00:25:24] I almost made it out on a huge way and I'm not gonna to that about why this is the third time we're trying to do that. I don't know. Nobody knows that. [00:25:34] It's an edit point. We can take that out. All right. So that's interesting what you just said. Especially interesting. What it's tell me, if you would. Because I don't know as a woman what what is a woman afraid of being? In what way is a woman afraid of being hurt on a on a first or second date? Aside from some, you know, really horrible over the top kind of thing. [00:26:02] I'm not sure if it's exactly being hurt like by the first or second type, but it's afraid of at some point the helicopter now breaking her heart. OK. Yeah, afraid of afraid of opening up. And at some point in the near ish future, the guy disappearing or changing his mind or not being the one and then she's left brokenhearted. [00:26:33] That is so interesting to me because I you my experience is sorta. Along the lines of. Not knowing when, not knowing when it's the right moment to kind of show emotion because that can scare a person. In my experience, you showing emotion scares the women. That's a concern of mine. I don't know that it does. I mean, I've not heard that feedback because. Well, I just haven't. But I think. Well, so shown. OK. So, I mean, I think you'd agree that that that showing more than average emotion means that you're communicating to the other person, that you are prepared. You have a greater depth emotionally and that you're you're getting invested in the relationship. I have feelings for you. And now, you know, the last time. [00:27:33] Well, that's two different things. And I think that's a very important point. And what I try to teach is that just having feelings right now doesn't mean you're promising anything. It doesn't mean you're investing. I don't even know what that word means. I would assume that it means I'm investing in the future. [00:27:51] Like, if, you know, if it's like a financial term, like I'm putting money into this for four in the hope of future future gains. And I and I think that that's wrong, wrong mindedness. I think that's the perception that we can benefit from dissolving. I can be very, very much in the moment and expressing an incredibly strong, deep and high and wide emotion. Yes. Do not expect anyone to ask me to marry them or not not ask anyone on a second date. I mean, it just it is now that. [00:28:32] And that's fantastic. I have not. Run into a lot of people like that, right, and I think that's what we're trying to learn here. [00:28:40] Right. [00:28:47] So we've done it. I think we'll be there'll be more on this in a minute. [00:28:51] And after midnight for the no. But to come. [00:28:56] Ok. Well, let's let's end this here. Let's go to Americans in Manhattan after midnight. What is it? Miracles after midnight? [00:29:01] Something like that. Yeah. Well, let's go to let's invite people to that site. But oh, we should also tell people, hey, guys and gals, we have an e-mail address now. Yes, we do. [00:29:12] And why do we have an e-mail address stuff so that you can e-mail us questions with questions? We're taking questions. Miraclesinmanhattan@gmail.com [00:29:20] We are going to answer your questions in as apt a fashion as we answer one another's here on this. [00:29:28] Yes. Miracles in Manhattan, Gmail dot com. Easy to remember. Yeah. All you have to do is remember the name of the podcast. And then Gee Mary, popular Google product Miracles in Manhattan, G.M. dot com. [00:29:41] So just remember that. Well, we'll point you in the right direction. Yeah. And yeah. [00:29:47] Friels do to please e-mail questions and don't feel like they need to be totally pertinent to the episode you just listened to. [00:29:54] No, no, no. I need any any of you any lesson yet. All right. Well, that's lesson 10. OK, I'll see you next time. [00:30:03] Let's move on. All right. That's that. We're done here. All right. [00:30:06] Hey, have a great week. Then you say goodbye. Oh, by the way. Sure. I'll keep. That was fun. That was good. I can. We're back on track in. --- Spirituality, sexuality, love, mental health  

Hello and welcome back to Equity, TechCrunch’s venture capital-focused podcast, where we unpack the numbers behind the headlines. We have a special episode ready for you today. As many of you know, it's that time of year when hundreds of nascent startups make their big 2-minute pitch to the top venture capitalists of "Silicon Valley" (San Francisco) at Y Combinator's Demo Day. We (Kate and Alex) thought we'd bring in a YC expert, YC chief executive officer Michael Seibel, to chat about the batch, changes in the last year, rising deal prices, SAFEs vs. convertible notes and the future of technology in SF. "This place is where tech is happening and they want to be here," Seibel told us. "Like I'm a struggling actor in Iowa and I want to get to Hollywood. This is kind of the promised land for a lot of people around the world." We had a lot of questions for Michael. For one, deal sizes and valuations at the seed stage are growing like crazy and YC is a big cause of that. To our surprise, Michael isn't actually a big fan of these huge rounds. "We don't think this is necessarily a positive phenomenon; on the other hand, we like that our founders get less dilution," he said. If you're interested in taking a look at each of the companies that made their pitch yesterday, at Day One of Y Combinator's Demo Day, you can take a look at TechCrunch's full list. Check back end of day Tuesday for a full list of companies that pitched on Day Two. As a final note, Equity is still not an interview show. This was a fun exception!

Rachel Grunwell is one of New Zealands' best know health and wellness experts and enthusiastic marathon runner. She is an award-winning journalist and has just released the book Balance: Food, health + Happiness which which features 30 global experts sharing science-backed advice on living healthier and happier.  But Rachel wasn't always a fitness queen. Up until 7 years ago she was a hard hitting investigative journalist and had three small children and was by her own admission extremely unfit. She had never been into any type of sport and thought those people that did all that just had different genes that she did. But then she was offered a column writing about fitness and health and this led her on an unexpected journey of self discovery and a complete change of lifestyle. Now Rachel helps others turn their lives around and teaches running, yoga and mindfulness when not writing books and articles. She is also the ambassador for the Achiles Foundation and helps support disabled athletes compete in marathons and other races.  In this interview Lisa and Rachel delve into some of the learnings she discovered through interviewing 30 global leading health, fitness and performance experts from neuroscientists to nutritionists and about her own personal journey. Here’s a link to find out more about Rachel and Balance https://inspiredhealth.co.nz We would like to thank our sponsors Running Hot - By Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff If you want to run faster, longer and be stronger without burnout and injuries then check out and TRY our Running Club for FREE on a 7 day FREE TRIAL Complete holistic running programmes for distances from 5km to ultramarathon and for beginners to advanced runners.   All include Run training sessions, mobility workouts daily, strength workouts specific for runners, nutrition guidance and mindset help Plus injury prevention series, foundational plans, running drill series and a huge library of videos, articles, podcasts, clean eating recipes and more.   www.runninghotcoaching.com/info and don't forget to subscribe to our youtube channel at Lisa's Youtube channel  www.yotube.com/user/lisatamat and come visit us on our facebook group   www.facebook.com/groups/lisatamati Epigenetics Testing Program by Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff. Wouldn’t it be great if your body came with a user manual? Which foods should you eat, and which ones should you avoid? When, and how often should you be eating? What type of exercise does your body respond best to, and when is it best to exercise? These are just some of the questions you’ll uncover the answers to in the Epigenetics Testing Program along with many others. There’s a good reason why epigenetics is being hailed as the “future of personalised health”, as it unlocks the user manual you’ll wish you’d been born with! No more guess work. The program, developed by an international team of independent doctors, researchers, and technology programmers for over 15 years, uses a powerful epigenetics analysis platform informed by 100% evidenced-based medical research. The platform uses over 500 algorithms and 10,000 data points per user, to analyse body measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home Find out more about our  Epigenetics Program and how it can change your life and help you reach optimal health, happiness and potential at: https://runninghotcoaching.com/epigenetics You can find all our programs, courses, live seminars and more at www.lisatamati.com  Transcription Speaker 1: (00:00) Well. Hi everybody. It's Lisa Tamati here at pushing the limits. It's fantastic to have you tune in for today's show and I'll have a wonderful guest coming up for you, but before I reveal who that is this week, I just wanted to let you know once again, if you want to reach out to me, you can do so. Lisa at Lisatamati.com,if you've got any questions around today's show or any of the past episodes or anything about running fitness, nutrition mindset, epigenetics, any of the things that we like to talk about on the show, then please don't hesitate to reach out to me. You can also check us out on Lisatamati.com that's our main website where we have all our programs listed and you can find out about live retreats and follow our blog. We'd really appreciate you checking out that stuff on there and getting back to us if you need any help with anything. Umow today I have a really amazing interview with one of New Zealand's top, ealth and wellness experts, a lady by the name of Rachel Grunwell. Now, many of you might've heard of Rachel. She's just put out a book called Balance, u,ich I'm going to talk to her about today. Um,e's a mom of three. She was an investigative journalist who tuned them her hand to learning about everything, health, fitness. And when she does something, she does it properly. Does our Rachel. So without further ado, I'd like you to introduce you to Rachel Grunwell. Speaker 2: (01:25) Yeah, well, hello everybody. It's Lisa Tamti here at pushing the limits. It's fantastic to have you back again for another fantastic episode. I'm really, really excited about this one. I've got a lady that I've followed for a long time on social media and heard great things about here. So I've got Rachel Grunwell. (01:40) You should hear that, right? She's on pushing the limits and it's really, really exciting. So, Rachel, welcome to the show. Speaker 3: (01:46) Thanks for having me on, Lisa. It's great to be here. Speaker 2: (01:49) Well, it's fantastic to have you now for those of you who live under a rock and don't know who Rachel is. Rachel is a journalist and she's also an author and a wellness and health experts. Uand Rachel, I want you to go back and just give us a little bit background about you, your life, your, your, you know, how you got into this because you came from investigative journalism of all things and like you've very, very different so, right. So take it away. Tell us, tell us a little about yourself. Speaker 3: (02:19) Yeah. So on a previous life, I was a very hard noise journalist for 25 years actually. And I would hope politicians to account and people in power to account. And I really love the industry because you could create incredible change, you know, you could help change policies or help, you know, beyond the door when they needed help and you know, publicly whole people and power to account. And I had a dream to become an award winning journalist and I reached there,which I was very lucky to do. Speaker 3: (02:55) And I went on to, you know, have family and I still keep as a investigative journalist and I would work out from one day a week to two days to three days. And I had, I worked for some really amazing Editors who just met me and would take,uhow many days a week than I, I could work and build up to after I had my food, some,ufun. It was by luck. And by chance they, I was offered a column, a weekly column,uby the Herald on Sunday and it was a well bang column and I would try and survive all these fitness and health activities every week. And, and I always joke that if at the time I was offered the wine column, I would have believed it. That plays.,So I was, you know, it harm our circuit on, but I never been this kind of fit creature. Speaker 3: (03:50) And Yeah. So when I was offered the a column, it was, yeah, it was really great cause I thought, yes, please. I'd really like to learn myself. I was really confused about nutrition. I was so unfit. I was really unfit mom, I would struggle to push a pram around the block and look, I was half in path and I found it really difficult. And I thought people who are really fit were like lady Gaga. They were born this way. Seriously though, different base. They had different genes to me and you know, I was such a Guinea pig with it column and you know, I tried juicing diets and got really hangry, hungry, angry. I tried a soup thing,tried dancing and I was worse than a certain politician. I had totally fate., nd I started a run and I started, u, it would've been seven years ago now. Speaker 3: (04:47) And I really, I just thought I've just got to show up. I've just got to try and I really don't understand this, but I'll just see if I can run a fun run one day. And I started with a 20 minutes walk from routine around the block today, two times a week. And I did that for a few weeks and I hated it. I was kind of a firing John. I was awful. And I, you know, it was really hard and I was there on foot and it was horrible. But I just, I, one thing I'm really good at is just being bloody-minded running. Yeah. Yeah. And especially in your realm. Oh my God. I don't know how you do it. You're like, I be principals really just go one step further than you've been before. And seriously, Ollie. God, yeah. Sorry. I just, I started there and you know, after a few weeks I thought, oh my God, I actually, I can run a little bit longer or I'm doing least walking then then I was before I can run a little bit longer. I, I feel a little bit stronger. Wow. I can really feel less in HD. You can really measure it. That's the coolest thing about running, right, is it you can meet your major, your progress and yeah. So once I could run 25 minutes I went to a PT and I said, look, if you can get me to run 10 k's you or 30 minutes unbroken, you won't be a PT. You'll be an m him. And he's like, what's that? Right. And he's like, miracle. Like you'd be a miracle Micah. Speaker 2: (06:29) Okay. Speaker 3: (06:31) And yeah, and, but I just showed up to training and I just keep going and got stronger and fitter and yeah. And then I did a ten km then a half marathon and then within a year I did my first marathon in. Fast forward to today and I'm about to run my 25th marathon. And a lot of them are give backs, which is guiding disabled athletes. Yeah. Speaker 2: (06:55) That's amazing. We'll get into that. Yeah. Speaker 3: (06:57) And since I've qualified in the industry, so qualified coach, I help people lose weight, get for level life, they love and and a really holistic way. So I don't just help them train or really care about how they're living their lives and how, how to be them best selves and Qualified Yoga teacher minutes in meditation. And there's a cross of passions as you would a little bit similar, like as, I love what you do, cause I've worked with a lot of athletes elite runners to weekend warriors crossfitters dancers to moms, moms and daughters are teaching yoga. And I worked with a lot of big brains teaching mindfulness and meditation and Yoga and stuff now. So that year were the bet athletes, you know, you need to rebalance your body or otherwise you're going to break. Speaker 2: (07:49) I'm sorry I went to that too. You know, as coaches, you know, we've, we've, you know, like I as an athlete did it all wrong for many, many years of broke myself basically by not having that holistic approach. And it's really important for us to be as conscious as that. We really look at the whole person their whole life and where they're at and how do we keep them forward without, without breaking them, without boon out, without getting lots of injuries and really looking at the whole health and not just their run times, you know. So that's why, you know, our philosophies align really nicely there. And you know, you've, you've touched on meditation and Yoga there. What's your take? I mean, I'm right into meditation and I actually self hypnosis and things like that as well and reprogramming. Have you, how's meditation help you in your life and you know, what's your take on the whole, you know, Yoga, meditation sort of world? Speaker 3: (08:50) Yeah. So I teach it now at retreats and in, you know, big events with and things like that and what's been really transferable formative for me, like I was the worst and meditator and I had a terrible monkey mind, you know, like my mind was all over the flies and what helped me was just starting small. It's like starting at run journey, right? It's like the first person who prescribed meditation to me gave me 30 minutes and I just went like, oh no, I'm going to do that. Like it was so overwhelming and I just didn't do a minute of it. But the second and I started small and I started slowly and I did a minute, then, you know, he's huge magic in there and I can do that. And that's how I train my mind in mindfulness has been transformative for many and how I live my life. Speaker 3: (09:44) And, you know, mindfulness just for anyone out there who, who's not,uhugely ensuring whether it's about not being stuck in the past. Sorry, I spent, I wasted a lot of my twenties and thirties,,feeling really angry and upset in stuck about certain things that had happened to me or how people were with me. And I really, yeah, keep too much, I think about pleasing people, but I really hung on to stuff in the past and you can't change anything in the past. So mindfulness is about leading, you know, acknowledging the past,uin , you know, not getting stuck in it. I mean, that's not been,you know, in the future cause you can't control the future. So it's, you know, having this letting go process. Uand yeah, it's just about living in an hour, celebrating the, now, seeing the absolute beauty and magic. Speaker 2: (10:40) And this is just so crucial. Like our lives are run by our subconscious. And that is always, you know, it with their conscious minds. We are either in the past and we were in in the future. We were always scared of what's going to happen to us or we're anticipating stuff or with, we're upset about what's happened to us in the past and we replaying those, those things with our subconscious programming, controlling 95% of our lives. Say, you know, that we only have a very small processing capacity with our prefrontal cortex and our subconscious is actually doing 95 to 99% of the work. So we can do what we want with their conscious thinking and still not have that breakthrough because the race is happening at another level. And when you do meditation, when you do mindfulness, this is you know, what's really important is about letting go of, of the, of the past and understanding it, not blaming and not staying stuck in that cycle of emotion. Speaker 2: (11:38) Basically, isn't it break out of those emotional responses? Because otherwise if you're reliving every day a trauma that you had in your childhood or your past at some stage, then your body is experiencing all of that pain every damn week, you know, and every day and only doesn't know the difference between a, that was 10 years ago or what is right now. It's having those same reactions. And so we get stuck. And this is where I saying, you know, the, the meditation, the deep breathing and it's, it's totally not woo woo , is it Rachel? It's not just Speaker 3: (12:12) No art science back and really heavily, sorry. So, you know, psychologists prescribe mindfulness, it's in the workplace. Like I w I worked with a lot of corporates in this field and they now are really welcoming that transition to understanding the science and these disciplines. And yet it is so, transformative. And you know, part of it's getting older and a bit wiser and you know, wow. But you know, like how you choose to experience the world, it's such a big thing. You don't get to choose what happens around you or how other people behave, but you always get to choose how you show up and, and you know, I like you, you know, energy goes way energy flows. And so like, I want to put my energy into really good things and positive things. Chase dreams get shut down. You know, Speaker 2: (13:12) I mean to go from seeing, you know, within, within seven years, I mean, being as hard-hitting journalist to now being a wellness expert and a fitness expert and having run nearly 25 marathons that's a massive transformation. Well, bringing up three children and writing a book. I mean and I mean on the book journey, like let's, let's go there for a little bit because often the model of my third book and to go balance, everyone listening or watching this on the video, you can say, write to his book balance. It's a hell of a journey to get a book out. Isn't that right? Show? Speaker 3: (13:48) Oh my God, it's s hard I can't relate up to your third, like one seriously almost broke me. Speaker 2: (13:57) Well that's one of my third one is excellent. You was breaking Beta. I wasn't an ultra marathon runner chapter. I like it. Speaker 3: (14:04) Yeah. Yeah. You know, the insurance tastes thing. Yeah. Speaker 2: (14:07) So how did you always come about and what is your book about and tell us a little bit about the interviews and things that you've got on the consumer interested to, to find out all about that. Speaker 3: (14:16) Yeah, sorry. It's cool. Balance, food, health and happiness and it's like this ducky beautiful blue color and just really simple and design. So a lot of main rating. So that's not candy, floss, pink and color. I really love that because I work, you know, as a coach and Yogi and things I work with mean and woman. And so I, I'm sorry, plays a designer's. We with a beautiful clean design. So how it came about was I have still kept it writing arm, sorry, I'm a wellness columnist for magazine and also indulge magazine and one of those goes on the Herald online every week. And I'm so a blogger with a lot of brands and things, I've kept it writing on going as well as well as the wellness work. And over the years I'm sort of lucky because I get to interview some of the beast minds in the wellness industry, you know, nutrition, fitness, movement,umindset, a lot of the most amazing minds, not only in New Zealand, but throughout the world. Speaker 3: (15:22) And my journalism background as suits me really well because you know, there's the writing craft, but also, you know, the question, you know, having those, the curiosity with questions and things. And so, yeah, we took a publish a couple of years ago. I got a publishing deal. I feel very grateful for that. So hard to get there. And it's based on footie experts from throughout the world. Sharing science stacks wellness, wisdom and all the kind of categories like psychology, neuroscience is for nutritionists and the the you know, these doctors in the air, there's researchers and you know, there's a neuroscientist on the who works with all blacks, our top rowers in Formula One racing car drivers to perform at the beast everyday. Kiwis can use those pillows to live their best lives these amazing stuff on emotional intelligence. Speaker 3: (16:22) Like, you know, how to relate better with kids, with friends, with colleagues to be a better human I guess. And you know, there's also 30 recipes, so 30 experts and 30 recipes. So there's a lot of you know, there's like a great beetroot juice on there for runners actually because I'm such a patient at runner there's even like the exercise high explained to me by doctor and like what's going on in your brain. And there's, you know, some core science concepts in there as well, like flow, which is a secret to a life worth living is finding flow. And you know, you and I know how to find it through running. And they were at such a gift we can access, cause you know, it helps as the yogurt. That's when you lost in the moment. You are immersed in the doing, you've got this reasonably high skill set. And so, you know, we can just run and get lost in the moment and it's moving meditation, Speaker 2: (17:25) It flows state as something I've studied. Have you read the book? Stealing fire tonight, fantastic book. Being able to tap into flow states and what flow states are. And I think that's a really important part of, I mean I have flow states like when I'm, I'm a journalist, so I create, you know, jewelry I haven't been doing as much lately because I'm so busy with, with things. And I miss that being in that state where I, you know, five hours go by and I, and I, and I've not even notice because I'm just in the creative process. And it takes a while to get in there and you know, but it's, it's something that's just fantastically, you know, that you're actually doing what you are, you know, made to do, so to speak. And you can get that running. You can get that role acting. Depends on what your thing is, but finding that flow state, it really pulls out the beast in you. This is when you're actually in your genius. Okay. Speaker 3: (18:22) Yeah. It's honestly, it's the psychologist who came up with a term called it Kale. I think you know, it's a secret total life worth living. Like if you can find your flow state, whether it's making jewellery, whether it's, you know, I'm getting lost in the moment doing netting or you know, even surgeons can find flow doing surgery, they are immersed in the moment and they won't even notice like music hall on the room. They don't like just lost in the moment in the, in the doing though you can say it. Great. Great. Yeah, sorry. And I find my flow state, you know, through music as well. Also saxophone. It's like, music's really cool. And even if you love listening to music, Oh my God. And like mix music you know, great place it where you're running. Speaker 2: (19:15) Absolutely. I mean, yeah, my husband's a museum and it's just like I just watch him and instantly go into a flow state when he's playing his guitar and stuff. And He, I could be yelling at him that Dennis was not hearing anything cause he's [inaudible] Speaker 3: (19:28) I might be selective hearing Speaker 2: (19:32) Cause mining, but you'd think he'd come for food, but he just, he's just in a different world. And, and unlike in VM that, you know, like I know I don't have a musical instrument. So,uthat, that's just a beautiful thing to watch. And this is when humans are at the highest potential. And if we can spend at least a little bit of time everyday in that state, in, we were much happier as humans. I, yeah. And we're choosing what we want to. Yeah. I wanted to sort of, mou know, taken a left hand turn in the road and talk a little bit about, our work with Achilles and your, you know, giving back to, u,rough your running. Um, I know we actually meet through our mutual friend Ian Walker, uwho has been on the show before. Absolutely. I, Rachel, just amazing man. Ian was hit by a truck years ago while he was out and on his bike and Speaker 3: (20:27) And he was an amazing marathonner. I mean like really fast marathon. Speaker 2: (20:35) Yeah. Walk in the wheelchair and in any back to doing marathons in is a hand bike and so on. Absolutely amazing story. And then you get hit by another, a truck., I think it was a while out on his hand bike and he's ahead head to go back and he's actually even further up paralyzed now and I don't know the technical term, but it's further up the back, basically a quadriplegic now and he's fighting back again. And he just absolutely blows my mind whenever I'm feeling down about, you know, I can't run as fast as I used to run as far or whatever. I think about Ian and I thinking about, you know, get over yourself and you've had the privilege of traveling to the New York marathon with Ian and the Achilles crew. Tell us a little about you, your work with [Achilles and how it has worked out for you. Speaker 3: (21:24) Sorry. It was really special being on that trip with Ian Actually and we forged this incredible friendship from that time and with [inaudible] it science like, you know, cure very much about 'em and you know, it's just a great mate and yeah, I love hanging out with him. Yeah. He inspires me hugely with his capacity to train and I love his determination to, to want to do well on these races. And you know, he's an amazing hand cycle athlete and yeah, really, really awesome to have a minute. [inaudible] And yeah, so I'm going to bet though for Kelly's something I'm really proud of and I've helped quite a lot of different athletes over the years. So just quickly for any viewer listeners who don't know what I can use as about we just help anyone with any kind of disability or barrier to participate in running kind of events. Speaker 3: (22:20) So half marathons fund runs marathons and I've gotten through quite a lot of races over the years and yeah, I love, I love being part of that charity in just about to take someone to New York visually appeared go with a spirit just as well gonna help you throw New York marathon learn and also Sydney half marathon. So not helper Tom Idi another inspiring athletes. But yeah, just, you know, like it's a hot connected thing. Like it's amazing to run your own rice lightly. You know, it's incredible to like to be chasing a time or just to be out there running your own race, but to help someone else that the drain. How about lifting and wonderful and you work, you connect it for ever and you know, through the tears and snot at the finish line. But to ne Speaker 2: (23:21) You're really emotionally already, your, your in you, he just, some way he was with one of your race lights. Yeah. Speaker 3: (23:27) There's a lot of pride through and you know, I, I've done enough races now and you know, qualified as a coach and I think one of my biggest gifts to share in their charity is to get them through to the finish line and a pretty good state in. So I know when they need to back. I know when they need to fuel, I know when they're, you know, they're on their mind struggle and you know, just helping them through those different stages and yeah, it's wonderful to share. Speaker 2: (23:58) Absolutely. My [inaudible] and this would be, you know, like this is, this is so grateful, not just with disabled, escalate athletes and not just, wouldn't it be fabulous to have someone like that that got talkies through everything in life, you know? Speaker 3: (24:12) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, if you got a card, she gonna get to your goal. A goal smarter and faster. Yeah. Like everything in life, right? Yeah. Speaker 2: (24:23) I mean, you know, we buy and, but honestly, all cost speed. The spent the first 10 years of my ultra marathon career without a coach. Back then there wasn't really anybody that knew too much about ultra marathoning and in the area that I was in and all the mistakes, the injuries, the burnout that the horrific stuff that you did all wrong that you could've saved yourself. And then, you know, Neil Wagstaff, who's now my business partner at running hot coaching, ou know, like he just flipped everything on its head and I had the base performances and you know, we've had, you know, lifelong friendship and now business relationship. Umnd it, it's just like, Oh man, you, you shortcut the process. Why reinvent the wheel? And now in every area of life I search out, and this is one of the selfish reasons I do this podcast, is because I get to meet people like you and, and other amazing people who have done incredible things. And I get to learn, this is my way of learning. As much as there's a selfish aspect of us Speaker 3: (25:27) Could learn so much from you too, Lisa. Speaker 2: (25:33) Oh, well hiey Yeah. Well let's go there. I'll get you through to an ultramarathon. Oh my God. Fabulous. I'll teach you up on that. Or if you, if you kind of, I'll help you get to the next distance. ,But coming back to the Achilles, you know, like helping other people. It doesn't matter if a disabled people or,uit just, it's just so you, you get out of your own skin, don't you? When you, when I of even in the middle of a running race, I've been doing ultramarathons and middle of deserts or something. And you're just like dying. And you know, sometimes, literally and sometimes just feeling like it. And then you come across somebody who is in deeper trouble than you. Instantly you forget your own suffering and you're there for them. And then you help them through their crisis and youth and the time flies. Speaker 2: (26:26) Once again, you're in a flow state because you're actually focused on somebody else. You're outside of your own Missouri. And then you know that saying pain is not optional, but suffering is, and it is like when you, when you understand how to switch, and I'm not saying it's easy, but when you actually on, in your case I'm someone with a visual impairment or in a wheelchair or something and you're helping them fight the battle and you can see how massive that bale is, it makes you feel like, well, what am I complaining about? My sore legs and lackluster on my tire. You know, that it's not as bad as what my friend is going through and it lessens your suffering and it gives you a complete new perspective on life, I think. Speaker 3: (27:05) Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we would get by in this world, depending on the barriers that we place on ourselves and the not barriers that others put in front of us, the ones that we've put in front of ourselves and I case the isolates who has, you know, real disabilities, they inspire me. So, you know, people, the rest of the world sees it as me helping them. And but actually it just, they end up becoming, you know, my friends and a lot of them are like family to me. Like I care about them that much and yeah. And, Speaker 3: (27:48) Yeah. Yeah. They inspire me and I think, look, you know, they can't see, they're not living their barriers and on the way and actually win. You know, it's a, it's a good lesson to share. It's like, you know, what, what barriers are in your way and how are you allowing them to a feature. Yeah. Speaker 2: (28:07) It's fantastic. Right? Joy. And I hope you continue to do that. And you know, to people like Ian Walker that just for me, they're my role models, you know, that is, and, and I mean, I don't know if you know my situation, the listeners who listen to my show, not, but my mom had an aneurysm three years ago. So working with her on a day to day basis and your rehabilitation and you know, with of disabilities, Speaker 3: (28:29) Oh, it's amazing what you've done. Speaker 2: (28:31) Yeah. Like she's just incredible. But it's given me a complete new perspective on, on life and what we're capable of and that replaced with an s selves. And you know, it's not that it's an easy thing to go through and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, but by the same token, I'm, I'm always, when I have adversity, I try to find the silver lining, the, the, the lessons, the learnings, what, what, how has this helped me and how has this been an advantage? And this journey has just shown me so, so much about everything like to perspective, you know, like for here, you know, here's me moaning. I can't run, I can't run my a hundred k's anymore or my 200 k's or whatever, you know, why was me my life's over? Because you're the athlete who's always been able to do these sort of things and then you're looking at a person who can't stand. Speaker 2: (29:23) We can't take a single step or can't even sit properly. And you sort of just relativizes everything in your life. And it's a really good reminder to have things like that. You know, in your mind, in your mind's eye to just, you know, okay, you're not a, you know, you're never got to meet Usain bolt when you're never going to be pulling a red cliff who case get out there and done stuff anyway, you know, do what you can do. Don't be miserable for the fact that, oh, I used to. And as a coach we get a lot of people. I used to be able to do this and now I can't and I'm trying to get them to let go of the past and just be here now. And once again, we limit ourselves sometimes by the achievements that we've had in the past in turning that around in a hate to go, okay, I've had an accident. Speaker 2: (30:11) Like Ian, you know, he, he, he'd gotten to being so good and then he was head again and then he's had to start from scratch again. That just absolutely blows my mind that he would get up again and fight again, you know and knowing how long that, that journey is. So yeah, I think, I think the work that you're doing is wonderful. So Rachel, what w talk to us a little bit about your change in your nutrition side and things like that. What do you, what sort of advice did you get out of doing the book or what learnings have you had on the, on the nutrition side of things? Speaker 3: (30:49) Yeah, sorry, I, you qualified to PT level to level five. So there's a really nice underpinning of our new national guidelines and you know, how w how we should be feeling about days. I'm actually personally quiet low carb, healthy fat almost, But I do like some,good ciabatta bread. It was great mornings on top, so I'm not perfectionist. Actually, you know, my book is called balance because I believe in all things in life and balance. Uhort of. I drink coffee, I drink wine, love of beer with a mate. Umnd I eat chocolate. I love chocolate. But you know, I think some 90% of my food is actually a pretty good and you know, it's about putting in an amazing fuel, mating nutrients. Uhut it's got to taste good. So for years and years now, I've been designing, healthy recipients for good magazine. Speaker 3: (31:47) And so why I put a city recipes and balance because I often talk about like the hero ingredients and how they feel your body and how the magic, you know, they bring about like Avocados you know, great for beautiful like, you know, eat for vanity as well. And these actually for runners,uyou know, there's some cold smoothies on here and what I hate is smoothies that tastes like swamp water I like food. I love food. I love fruit too much. So if you can, you know, eat or drink anything. , T's got to taste good in the assemble. Awesome. Umo there's a chocolate, a smoothie bowl. Speaker 2: (32:35) Oh, very. Oh my God. That looks great Speaker 3: (32:37) And so I think it's actually really amazing for your scan there. Sorry. And delicious nutrient dense. Am I saying? But these are great. A by trick drew some here, which is amazing. It's you, all the runners I know. A hugely of victory juice. Yup. Totally bomb into my truth. Yeah. So there's some great,uParse Rum,upar states, the size of smoothies and juices and snacks and stuff like that. And the,,and again, it's just kind of weaving in the stories of, you know, or what to eat and drink to, to feel amazing, but to look amazing. And some of the science behind why,you know, there's some really cool stuff around in fasting right now, you know, long, Speaker 2: (33:26) Really important that you, you enjoy your food and it's not just all, you know, horrible. You know, like I do get up in the morning and have this most awful, awful whole litre of vegetable juice, basically with everything from celery to, to lemon juice to, you know, turmeric and stuff. But that, you know, and that gives me my good start to the day, but then I don't want to have all my food like tasting right. And they don't want to. Yeah. We'll enjoy. Speaker 3: (33:54) Yeah. So, yeah, I am, yeah. Often is like four ingredients and a smoothie and that we really need nutritious and really good for you. Uand like some of the experts in the book, they really cold, like naughty 11 talks about, you know, banging and the whole orange She's like, you just, you know, being in all the nutrients, that's pretty quick and easy, you know, question. Umnd Sarah Wilson as in my boyfriend, she's fraught. She's the, I quit sugar queen. She's one of the largest, hike true hundred top authors in the world. Uhhe's amazing and she's put out all these incredible, m0 books. Umnd yeah, she talks about, you know, sustainability and my book actually not so much about food but umome awesome sustainability. Heck and but she's about using everything in the food, you know, like he gets celery, use the white butts, use the leaves, like use the whole damn thing, like you've paid for it and it's all nutrition. And so sorry. Yeah, it's kind of changed how I look at food. Umnd quite a few different ways like hearing about where it's coming from, how it feels, my body. Like it affects how you, you think and how you feel. It's like movement, right? Umovement affects and rewires your brain. So you know, you get incredible energy levels and you know, creativity and, and yeah. Your whole sense of how you show up in the world as linked to, you know, how you think, how you feel, how you move, what you eat. Speaker 2: (35:28) I'm not, I'm not like, it's really like when you understand the science behind things, you're more likely to do it. I find for me, you know, when I was told years ago to do to meditate and I was like, well, when I run, I meditate. You know, I can't stay in Still, , let's stay in the difference between, use it as a type of flow state and so on. But it's, there's a need for the other part of me, the meditation and why and how that quieting of the mind and checking into the, you know, the parasympathetic nervous system. And when you're running, you're in the sympathetic nervous system so that it's not going to, you know, create that balance. And when you understand a little of a science, I find it's far more interesting to actually do it. Then you get, you get why you're doing it and it gives you that, not just that, well, the your head to do this and you don't know why. I mean, maybe like learning maths as a kid and going, what the hell am I ever gonna have to work out all this stuff? It's a lot of inapplicable stuff to my life. You know? I've got to say that if they explained to me how it applies, if you want to build some, I don't know, a wall, you have to understand all this mess, then I might've gone, oh, okay, I'll get it now while I'm doing this Speaker 2: (36:37) U so I think understanding and doing that research is really important. Now. Rachel, we'll, we'll wrap it up in a moment. I just want to, to give you the full from a moment to what is your main message? What do you, what does Rachel stand for? What do you want to get out into the world? What's your big message, and I'm putting on the spot, but what, you know, if there's one, two or three things that you just really desperately wanted to share with the audience today, what would those be? Speaker 3: (37:04) I guess love, life and balance and least perfectionism. I thought about progression a, be really kind on yourself. We start hard on ourselves to be perfect. Sorry. There's this kind of process of letting go and like, I'm my mission in life to it as inspire, Kiwis or inspire anyone to, to live healthier and happier and yeah. Like, look, I'd love everyone to read my book. And you know, it's not an ego-driven thing. It was for a long time as a journalist, I really wanted to, to be an author, but when it came to doing my book, it needed to be a whole lot more than that. Like for anyone to actually spend money on my book. I wanted to be incredibly proud of it, but I actually want it to it to authentically, like genuinely help people. So I brought together the best minds who helped change my life to be a lot healthier and happier. I'm more, you know, got way more emotional intelligence than I ever had. I'm still working on that. But yeah, these people in the bark are amazing. And like, even if you read one chapter and it changes your household, happiness is incredible magic in there. So, yeah, during read it, connect with my, I love it. Speaker 2: (38:30) Yeah. And that that is so important. Rachel, you know, when you, when, when you know you're in I's office know how much you go through to get a book out. People would not believe how hard it is to get a book out in what you, you know, it cannot be about your ego and you want to sell millions of copies cause that's a dream that's not gonna happen. Generally you know it, you have to be thinking about the individuals that are reading this book and that it's gonna really impact the life. And you are talking for the next what the stuff about that sudden your book. So Rachel, where can people get your book? It's available in the book scores as well as on your website. Speaker 3: (39:07) Yeah Sir. It's on my website and spot health.co. Dot. NZ. If you want a signed copy, but it's actually in paper Plas crows or wherever you are in the world. It's on Amazon U K or book deposit. Trey just Google it. You'd be able to find it and it's great. It's a great gift for like an old woman. And the, the beauty of it is it's, yeah, just read one chapter. Like it's not a novel. You don't have to read the whole thing. If you're not into yoga, please don't read the architecture. But if you're into, you know, how the science of the feminist high works which is really fascinating. [inaudible]. Or how to live your base life or how to have, you know, five layers of listening so you can actually listen. Well, that was quite transformative for me. Just read that chapter. And yeah, connect with me on Instagram, which is just my name, Rachel Grunwell. Speaker 3: (40:02) Well my Facebook pages is fine. Health inZ age. Uyeah, connect with me. I love, I love those communities. I am really connected. And,uthe last thing I just wanted to, she was,uI did have a massive crisis of confidence,uhalfway through writing the book. It was two year journey and I almost walked away from it. UI was an award winning journalist, but I, yeah, I just had this really tricky time in my life and art. One more skive out. And, you know, you hit the self talk going on. I'm not good enough. Like I'm not, you know, I'm not as good as my friends who are amazing writers. Uand I had a really tricky time and are really vulnerable stage. I almost walked away. I had a publishing deal for Christ's sake. I'm sorry if I what's it so glad you did it. Yeah. And sorry mater it was, it was my biggest dream, right? And Yeah. And it was frightening to do it. And I think you've just gotta be bribed and follow through on your dreams. Don't give up on them. And I'm so glad I didn't. I love my book and so proud of it. And I feel emotional. Every diamond I get messages from riders. Ubut yeah, my message to anyone out there don't ever give up on your dream. And I know you're all about that, Lisa. Speaker 2: (41:21) Absolutely. And say, I hope people are listening. Cause you know, you look at Rachel Grandma and you think, wow, beautiful, amazing three children, Super Korea bought Blah retreats and you got, and a lot of were lot of people that's intimidating, right? And they look at it and go, well I couldn't even do that. But when they hear from some people like you saying, you know, I nearly didn't make it with the sport, I struggle with this or I have problems with that and people realize you, like you said at the very beginning of this and can you, I thought people who did health and fitness and sport, just different genes, Speaker 2: (41:56) No, all have different things. They did Dweck and I, one of the main themes running through this interview today, which I already picked out again and again and again in your talking was to start small and do something every day towards your goal of think, if I could sum up this whole interview, it would be, there is one, you know, takeaway is break things down and then when it seems overwhelming, just do a tiny little bit today. And you obviously did that with the book and I congratulate you on getting that book out because I know what a mess of journey it is. I'm still in the deep deck going, how the Hell I was, this and that. But it will, and I have enough experience down in there that I will eventually get through. And there's a lot of tears, is a lot of love, so we can tease that goes into these, into these box. So I do encourage you guys to go out there and grab Rachel's Book. You're obviously not going to regret it. Rachel, thank you so much for being on the show today. So go to inspired health.co. Dot. NZ. That's right. Speaker 3: (42:56) Yeah. And you can find out all about the broken, like read who the experts are involved on anxiety and personal on depression. Like the experts are really cool when other top happiness researchers in the world. And you know, I did ear guitar when he said he'd be involved. Thank God he couldn't see Speaker 2: (43:14) A read them and then try and try and get these people with someone on the podcast. So, you know, thank you very much for this as farm talk today. Rachel, I wish you well in your new business, in Davis, in the, in the work that you're doing and with your Achilles people. My love to you and thank you very much for being on the show today. It's been awesome. Speaker 3: (43:31) Thank you so much. You inspire me. So thank you. Speaker 2: (43:35) Thanks. Sorr Speaker 1: (43:36) That's it This week for pushing the limits. Thanks so much for stopping by and we really hope you enjoyed that interview. If you could do us a favour and please do a rating and review on iTunes, that would help the show immensely. We love getting feedback from our listeners,and it really helps the show get exposure. So if possible do us a really big favour, please make sure you go and do a rating and review in subscribe, and please share this content as well with your networks. If you could do that for us, would be very appreciative and we'll see you again next week. Thank you very much.     

Let's Talk about Meal Prep for Good Nutrition... On this week's episode of the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry I got the chance to talk with Dr. Lisa Folden. I love her story as she is a physical therapist in training but soon realized the importance of nutrition and the lack thereof was having on her practice as well as her personal well being. Dr. Folden has her own practice Healthy Phit Physical Therapy & Wellness Consultants where she marries the art of physical fitness with nutritional behavior. She is on this week to talk about one of the most commonly noted but overlooked aspects of lifestyle modification which is meal prepping. As I have made lifestyle changes of my own, I know how difficult it can be to not only make the change to better eating but then to plan out those better meals but Dr. Folden does an amazing job giving us easy & actionable tips to get our journey started. We also got a chance to talk about her book "Healthy Made Easy: The Ultimate Wellness Guide for Busy Moms” and her upcoming book on meal planning. Text LUNCHLEARNPOD to 44222 to join the mailing list. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and share the episode with a friend or family member. Listen on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Stitcher, Soundcloud, iHeartRadio, Spotify Sponsors: Lunch and Learn Community Online Store (code Empower10) Pierre Medical Consulting (If you are looking to expand your social reach and make your process automated then Pierre Medical Consulting is for you) Dr. Pierre's Resources - These are some of the tools I use to become successful using social media My Amazon Store - Check out all of the book recommendations you heard in the episode Links/Resources: Healthy Made Easy www.HealthyPhit.com Instagram @HealthyPhit Facebook @HealthyPhit Twitter @HealthyPhit YouTube @HealthyPhit Social Links: Join the lunch and learn community – https://www.drberrypierre.com/joinlunchlearnpod Follow the podcast on Facebook – http://www.facebook.com/lunchlearnpod Follow the podcast on twitter – http://www.twitter.com/lunchlearnpod – use the hashtag #LunchLearnPod if you have any questions, comments or requests for the podcast For More Episodes of the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry Podcasts https://www.drberrypierre.com/lunchlearnpodcast/ If you are looking to help the show out Leave a Five Star Review on Apple Podcast because your ratings and reviews are what is going to make this show so much better Share a screenshot of the podcast episode on all of your favorite social media outlets & tag me or add the hashtag.#lunchlearnpod Download Episode 121 Transcript Episode 121 Transcript.. Introduction Dr. Berry: Welcome to another episode of the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry. I'm your host, Dr. Berry Pierre, your favorite Board Certified Internist. Founder of drberrypierre.com as well as a CEO of Pierre Medical Consulting. Helping you empower yourself for better health with the number one podcast for patient advocacy, education and promotion. Today we have another amazing guest on the podcast. Again, the theme this month is nutrition. And I thought, what better place to start when we talk about nutrition is meal prepping. Again, if you Google nutrition, you Google trying to lose weight one way or the other, you're gonna come across a blog post or a page or a video that talks about the importance of meal prep. And I get this question a lot. Honestly, I'm in the process of trying to be more diligent when it comes to meal prep and myself. So I figure, let's talk to someone who's been there, right? And really speaks about wellness and nutrition as a whole. And really is trying to hit it home. Out the park. I mean, when it comes to meal prepping and meal prepping for patients and her clients. This week we have Dr. Lisa Folden. She’s a licensed physical therapist, naturopathic lifestyle coach. She's a movement expert, women's health advocate, and she works to educate the general population on exercise safety as well as other aspects of physical wellness. And I thought it was very important to have her on the show because not only does she talk about the aspect of physical wellbeing. And obviously her being a physical therapist that makes a way, that may just as obvious, right? But she understands and she had almost like an epiphany that because she was dealing with just one side of the table, she was only doing half the job. When she wasn't educating her patients and our clients on the actual function of nutrition and how nutrition plays such a big role on the physical aspects of health. She knew she had to make a change. And right now she owns healthy fit physical therapy and wellness consultants in Charlotte, North Carolina where she works with clients of all ages, recovering from orthopedic as well as neurological injuries. She's also been featured on the Oprah magazine, Shape magazine, Lift Strong, bustle, because she's a writer as well too. She loves writing and she actually has her own book Healthy Made Easy: The Ultimate Wellness Guide for Busy Moms that we get the chance to talk to her about that as well as well as an upcoming book focusing again, hint on meal prepping. So again, I definitely decided for you guys to catch this episode. Again, like always, if you have not had a chance to go ahead and subscribe the podcast. At least leave us a five star review. Let us know what you feel about the podcast. Let us know what you feel about the episode. And then, tell a friend and tell a friend as always go. Again, I don't expect you to tell 50 people, but as long as you tell one person, that's all I can ask for. So again, get ready for another amazing episode here on the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry. Episode Dr. Berry: Alright, Lunch and Learn community. Again you just heard another amazing introduction. You know the theme this month, we're talking about nutrition. We’re getting ourselves together when it comes to the subject of nutrition. And of course you know I ain't the expert, right? So I bring experts onto, you know, now kind of get you guys to get myself right as well too because I learned just as much as you do. So again, Dr Lisa, thank you for joining today's podcast. Dr. Lisa Folden: Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Berry: So Dr. Lisa I got a lot of my guests and a lot of my listeners who like to skip right past the introduction. They like to fast forward, past stuffing. They like to go straight to the meat and potatoes, given the pan, right? If they just missed your bio, let's say to even read your bio, what is something that made me not be in your bio, but says, you know what? This is what really kind of expands the person who I am as far as Dr. Lisa is concern. Dr. Lisa Folden: Yeah, well, being in the health field, I obviously have a passion for helping people. I think most people in our professions do. But for me personally, I'm just so passionate about health and exercise and making things fun and making nutrition and life manageable. So some of the things that don't go on my bio, a little tidbits about me. Number one, I love to dance. Like I could dance all day and if I thought that, if I had a little more confidence in myself as a dancer, when I was younger, I would probably not be a physical therapist. I'd probably be a professional choreographer or dancer. Because it's something I love, I incorporate it into my fitness lifestyle because I enjoy it. But yeah, that that's, you know, one of my things, I'm a neat freak doesn't have as much to do with nutrition necessarily, but I like to have things organized. I read organizational books and I follow organizational logs. And I'm the type of person that gets really excited going to the container store. You know what I mean? Dr. Berry: Wow. Okay. I love this. Okay that makes sense. I didn't even know there are organizational books, but now I'm even more intrigued by that aspect. And again I think it calls to the discipline and I'm pretty sure, and we'll talk about it. I'm pretty sure you understand how important discipline is with the subject of nutrition and getting ourselves together. For those who may not know or still may be just kind of coming into their own, when we talk about nutrition and its overall benefits to our health. What would you say it is? The grand scheme of things? Dr. Lisa Folden: Well first I'd like to say I don't consider myself a true expert on nutrition. My education and physical therapy, we have some nutrition training, but it's not, I definitely, I'm not a nutritionist by any means. So I never like to tell my clients or my audience people that I'm working with that I am the authority on nutrition. But I have a good grasp of it. Just from my work experience and history. And then of course living my own life and trying to figure it out. So what I have learned is that nutrition is so much more important than we were taught growing up. It's probably, as it relates to weight loss or weight maintenance, it's probably 80% honestly. And that's hard for me because I'm like an exercise and like I love to work out. So you know, you get in that mindset for a long time like, oh I'll eat that, but I'll just work it off. And that is no, not how it works. And I learned that the hard way for years and years. So I just think nutrition is, it's really primary. What you put into your body is, you're going to be a product of that. So it's, it's really important and it's hard in this country to find the right stuff and the good stuff. And sometimes when you think you got the right stuff, you read an article on Google that says not the right stuff. So it can be very confusing and very challenging. But it is very important to put at least a decent amount of effort into defining a nutrition plan and program that works for you, your family, your lifestyle. Dr. Berry: And what I love, and I think this is especially because we looked at it, you touched on it in the beginning is I think a lot of times, especially in when it comes to health and just health care in general, really just knowledge in general is that a lot of times, we kind of attribute the aspects of like, you know, having some type of degree or paper and at like sponsor us as experts when we all know job applications all day. Talk about what is your experience associated with what you're trying to do. And here, like especially in health, I see it all the time and you already know, it takes someone, they do a couple months of training and all of a sudden they propound themselves as this the expert de facto, right? Unfortunately, there isn't. If someone follows them and someone believes they are the expert, that's where it is. So I don't think, I never put too much, I put some on this right. And onus of meeting certain degrees certificates or something like that to say like, Oh, I'm an expert. But I always put more focused on like, oh, are you in the trenches? Are you getting down and dirty when it comes to it? Because that's the person I want to listen to you. I want to listen to the person who's had struggles. I want to listen to the person whose hats assessors. I want to listen to the person who is then able to initiate and then pass that knowledge on. Especially in Lunch and Learn community, I think that's always been a big thing for us, is understanding that those paper degrees is fine. But tell me what your life is about and that way. Because unfortunately most people are more likely gonna follow that type of person. A person who got whole bunch of degrees on the wall but don't talk about nothing, can't talk about nothing because they can't teach us. And I think it's interesting because you talked about the fact that you had to go through your own aspect of learning that, oh nutrition actually is the real deal. It was it because you are so active and you were able to balance it out. Was that someone you kind of leaning on the fact that you're so physically active and you are able to kind of get away with, maybe some of the nutritional discretions in the past? Dr. Lisa Folden: Well, I think it's probably most of us when you're an adolescent and you're exercising and moving all day and your metabolism has not yet come to a bit of a halt. You can live a lot more freely and do a lot more of whatever you want. You don't see the repercussions of it and then you're not even talking so you're not even thinking about it at that age. So for me, I was always very athletically built. Always very athletic in regard to the activities I chose. I ran cross country. I was a dancer in high school. So when I went into college, I think that was, that first shift, they talk about the freshman 15 and this and that. But I think that was my first shift and seeing like, oh, my body is changing a lot, growing up. But also based on the foods that I'm eating. What was accessible to me, with a lot of stuff that I don't think I normally ate. And so I saw changes happening. Wasn’t able to pinpoint exactly what to do about it at that point. But that's when I became more aware. And it wasn't until I got into physical therapy school and I started learning a little bit more that I started to understand, oh, okay. But even still, I mean that was like 15 years ago. And you still, because of you know, the way that you grow up sometimes you still have this desire to like, okay, I can just work it out. So I played that game for years and years and I think it was probably starting to have children and then seeing real changes. It's like, oh, okay, I cannot eat the things that I was eating at the rate and the consistency that I was eating them before. If I want to be healthy and be able to function and not continue gaining more and more weight. It all came to a halt I think with children. So I leaned on my youth and yeah, my activity level and then just not really understanding what was happening all the time. I did put on a little weight, which is fine. And I like to mention that I don't do a lot of heavyweight focused in my practice when I work with people for wellness needs. If you have a goal of changing your weight, I'm cool with that and we'll work with that. But I try not to make the primary focus to do with your weight because it can be so misleading. Some people are just naturally thinner, naturally smaller, naturally, way less. And it does not speak to their health as far as what they're putting in their bodies and what their body is able to do, what their lab work would say. So I don't focus heavily on that, but sometimes, oftentimes, weight is the most visible descriptor of what's happening as far as what you're eating. So for me, yeah, definitely seeing changes and fluctuations in my weight and then also when some activities that I could do before it became more challenging. And it's like, hold on what's going on here? I don't remember needing this much water in a day. But now if I don't get my 64 to 98 ounces, something is wrong. You know what I mean? So yeah, just being more aware of those changes and seeing being their effects on my body. Dr. Berry: And when I look at, and I know you talked about being a physical therapist. I'm pretty sure with a lot of just on that aspect of your work and in seeing where you know and if a person's nutrition, isn't optimal. And makes that side of the job part of it as well. What were some of the things that kind of led you to say, what I think I want to take a more proactive role. Not only in myself but in others when it comes to nutrition. Dr. Lisa Folden: I was working, let's see, I graduated in some so long ago, 2007 from physical therapy school and I started out doing contract work. So I would just work at a location gym for 13 weeks or so and then move on to another. And I enjoy that because I have a tendency to get bored. So it's nice to kind of switch up my environment, switch up my caseload. I got to see adults and children. So I have a pretty wide spectrum. But what I noticed is when I kinda got into the field of and staying more consistently in a location, it just became like the same thing over and over again. So and so need for this. Run them through a program real quick and then six months later they're back for something else. So I started to feel like a factory worker and I was just kind of repairing the same people over and over again. And it dawns on me, and this was around the time that I started contemplating starting my own practice which I eventually did. It just dawned on me that we spend a lot of time on rehab and no time on prehab. So I started… (Oh, I love that. Hey, alright, okay). It goes with our American system, right? We're not necessarily a healthcare system, we're more of a secure system. And so it became annoying and frustrating to me that I could probably instill some knowledge and people that would prevent them from having these injuries over and over and over again. And a lot of it, a lot of the injuries is of course related to weight or just poor nutrition in general. And so that's when I contemplated to start more practice a few years later. I did and I immediately my practice is like wellness. We’re going to do physical therapy, absolutely. You get injured, I'm happy to help you. We're going to do wellness. So almost all of my clients know that we'll be finished healing their injury, the very acute thing that's happening in them. We moved right into, okay, what's next? It's like alright now, now the core is strong. How are we going to keep it that way? What are we going to do? So I just make that, my focus now is really getting people to consider how they don't want to come back for the same thing or deal with the same issues. So how we can sort of revamp what you're doing. And I do that a lot with my moms. I have a fit mom program that I work with and I help women, especially after babies. It gets real challenging. Your whole world gets kind of turned upside down. And I have a heart for that because I've been through it myself three times now. And so I work with them on their nutrition and making things very simple, easy, creating some grabable meals, things that are healthy and fulfilling to their bodies that they don't feel like they're in the kitchen, slaving over, for hours and hours and hours. So, yeah, I just, all of that, you know, that whole experience and seeing people do the same thing over and over again, and me being there to facilitate it, it was like, this is insanity. Let me, let me figure out a new plan here. So. Dr. Berry: And I love that especially because the fact that, and I think a lot of times when we hear of nutrition, people always go to a weight. If your nutrition is bad, your healing's bad, right? If your nutrition bad and mentation is bad. There’s so many other things associated with nutrition that like weight becomes more of a byproduct more than the actual targeted aspect and goal. And so one of the reasons why, I definitely want to highlight here, is because obviously in this day and age we're in August, right? I had a previous guest tell me 80% of people who had new year's resolutions have already kind of failed and dropped them right in. They're already thinking about next year's resolutions. (Yeah. Unfortunately). One of the big things, especially when people start thinking about, trying to get better as far as with their eating right, is the onus and is the practice of meal prepping. And again, full disclosure, Lunch and Learn community members, I am going to be like kind of taking down notes as well because I have trouble with justice. The just getting behind the mindset of it. Let's talk about meal prep and why is this such an important aspect? Because I know you're big on it as well too. Dr. Lisa Folden: Yeah. I spent a lot of time meal prepping and revamping my meal prep process because it is more than a notion. I always tell people start small because it takes some effort and some energy and some thought. But I like to look at the idea of meal prep like this. You know, if you fail to plan, you plan to fail, right? And you have to take that same thinking into your food. If you are just going to fly by the seat of your pants. And that works for some people. So I don't, not the process. You have to find your own process. But most times if you're going by the seat of your pants on your eating, then you're not going to be eating good. And that's just the bottom line. If you're not planning out what are going to be my breakfast options this week, my lunch, my dinners, then you're likely ordering fast food, carry out, going out to lunch multiple days a week, or eating a bunch of snacks. We’re human, right? And that is usually what it lends itself to. So for me, the construct of meal prep starts in the mind. It's like, all right, let's think this through. What do I know to be good for my body? How can I incorporate as much of that into my daily eating as possible? How can I avoid spending my money and eating things that are probably made from mostly, not great products and putting them into my body every single day? And so I look at it from that standpoint and then I create affirmations around it. Dr. Berry: We love affirmations out here. We love it. Dr. Lisa Folden: Right now on my bathroom mirror, I have like five or six affirmations associated with my eating. And one of them is my taste books are not more important than my physical health. Right? So sometimes I want some cheese cake or some Oreos and those things are fine in moderation obviously. But I know myself, I have a moderation problem. Dr. Berry: I love that. See, we're right here with it, right? We know that we can't even, like now we can't even go to, because we just don't stop. Dr. Lisa Folden: I can eat a whole, like a whole row of Oreo. So for me, I don't bring it into my home. Now from out somewhere and there's a cookie, oh, I'll take one, that's fine. But I don't bring those foods into my home so that my whole concept of meal prep just revolves around that idea that my being healthy and eating fuel and food that is good for my body and it's going to make my body work better is more important than that temporary satisfaction of a taste. And so I plan for it, I create affirmations around it. I write out a menu, I shop forward, and I meal prep and I go from there. And when I do step outside of it, because I'm meeting friends for lunch or dinner or whatever, it's not a huge deal because the vast majority of the time during the week I'm sticking within my plan. So that's how. Dr. Berry: So what would you say and you talked about preparation. What other benefits are really associated with those who are looking to get into meal prep, or doing meal prep or are in that process like you know, a lot of times, for us, we gotta mentally kind of put ourselves in that process first before we can take that. Dr. Lisa Folden: Yes. As you should. I suggest that because like I said, if you just, sometimes when you jump into it, it's like overwhelming and it's too much. But the benefits of meal prep, I mean they're numerous. Number one, you're more aware of what you're eating, right? So you know what's going in your body. If you're a calorie counter or someone who likes to be very mindful of how much they're eating. You plan it out. You literally portion it out. You size it out. You make sure you're getting the right serving sizes. Number two, of course you save tons of money. I don't even like to do the math sometimes. If I'm all not doing my meal prep, I check my bank account and I see what I've spent on carry out and like a week or let alone a month. I have a family of five so it gets real bad. Dr. Berry: Same here, same here. I got two twins and an older daughter. So we just can't just go out. Dr. Lisa Folden: It’s depressing to the bank account. So what I do, obviously you saved a lot of money when you meal prep. To me like I said, it just keeps you organized and you know, that speaks to my inner organizational person. I love the idea of knowing, all right, here's the kid’s lunches. These are my lunches. These my husband lunches. Here's the freezer prep for the next four meals. It saves time. Meal Prep can take you several hours obviously, but it saves you so much time during the week when you can come home, get off work and all you have to do is throw your dinner in the oven. You know what I mean? It's so easy if you can get up in the morning and get your kids off to school or wherever they're going and all they do is grab their already premade lunch out of the fridge. It free up so much time. And for me the personal benefits are when you free up that time, then you get to do more things you love. Like spend time with your family, go figure right or shoot, lay out on the couch and watch TV if you want to. You know what I mean? It gives you the ability to spend more time doing things that you enjoy because now you're prepared and your week is set as far as your nutrition goes. So, of course the weight benefits, the nutrition, making sure you're eating good foods, all of that is there. But saving money and time and restoring memories and things that you don't always get to make because of our busy, busy lives. Those are the big benefits to me. Dr. Berry: I love it. I love all of them. But Dr. Lisa, you already know, and I'm pretty sure you probably ran through most of them. You going to have people, going to hit you with the excuses. (Yes). What are some of the more common, I'll call it misconception, but you know really what are some of the common excuses you hear for people who say, Oh, I can't, I can't do that. Dr. Lisa Folden: Oh, there's so many. Let me pick out my favorites. First, let me say, excuses are tools of incompetence. (Let's talk). Okay, so the reality is this, if you want something bad enough, you're willing to work for it. And I take that into every aspect of my life. Period. Family, schooling, education, career, nutrition, health, fit, all of it. It goes into every category. The most common excuses I get are time. It takes too long. I'm not interested in that. And I respect that one because time is valuable, for me too. And so for people like that, I suggest we take a small. Maybe instead of meal prepping once a week where you're spending three or four hours, maybe you meal prep twice a week. So maybe on Sunday you meal prep, a few things to get you through Wednesday and then maybe on Wednesday you meal prep, a few things to get you through, you know, Thursday, Friday or the weekend, whatever. I also suggest that people take time off. Like sometimes meal prep, it can be a lot when you're doing it consistently every week. So to give yourself a breather, take a week off. That week, just make sure you shop for things that are healthy and grabable. And then you plan your curiosity around sort of your healthier food options in your neighborhood or wherever you work or live. So there's ways to get around it. But that's the biggest excuse that I don't have time. Another excuse I get is, their families. People who have like picky eaters with kids and I have a whole chapter in my book about that, so I'm ready for that one too. And it's just sometimes people don't, you know, we'll Google everything, right? I got a scratch on my arm or let me look this up. Sometimes people forget when it comes to meal planning and recipes and things like that. Use the internet, use Google, find some things that sound attractive to your kid. Find ways, if you know what your kids like, find ways to incorporate things they like into the meals so that you're not, you know, meal prepping and basically being wasted. So picky eaters can be tough, but there's definitely ways. I hide food, hide vegetables inside of food all the time. My kids have no idea. You can say, my kids don't eat vegetables. I'm good for making them like a cheese and chopping up fine, yellow bell peppers and they have no idea, that way it blends in with the cheese. I'm all for that. I'm all for problem solving. But yes, picky eaters. And then I say the third most common meal prep excuse I get is, well, two, one people think it costs too much, which, you know, I can totally refute that it does not your fast food and your carry out is way more expensive. Dr. Berry: Way more. Quickly too. At least for me, I know one session and then I'm like, oh my God, what are we doing right here? Dr. Lisa Folden: Exactly. But that one is easy to get rid of. But the other one is for people who are single and you know, live alone or just don't feel like, oh, I don't want to eat that. I don't wanna eat the same thing all the time. Or I don't want to cook all of that food. And I totally get that. But I think that the single person, the person that just meal prepping for themselves has a great advantage. You have the opportunity to really switch your stuff up because you're making such small portion sizes and grocery stores have gotten real hip now. They got a lot of single serving options for you. So to me it's not really a reasonable excuse anymore because there are ways around it and there's ways to take a meal prep it, just pull out a couple for your week and then freeze the rest. And that can be a prep for later in the month or whenever. So there's ways to get around all of that. So I'm ready for all the excuses. But those are probably the top three or four that I get. Dr. Berry: It's a little incompetent. I love it. I love it. When you started and you made that transition where nutrition was important, where meal prep, was this like a tag team combo where like when you were making the nutrition turn, you said I need to do it while meal prepping or did that come at a different timeframe? Dr. Lisa Folden: That's a good question. They came very close to one another. Yeah. I think within the month or so of me feeling like, hey, I need to really step up my nutrition game. I think I was like, yeah, meal prep is just a natural part. It was sort of a natural progression to me. Because it was like for me, I'm a planner anyway, so it's like, okay, if I'm going to eat right, how am I going to make sure I eat right? It' I can't just rely on what's here because we're always gonna go for what's quick. So I may have all the healthy ingredients in my cabinets and refrigerator. But when I get off work and I'm literally exhausted, I don't want to make that. I don't want to stand in the kitchen. So I will order food. Post mates has been seen like the best and worst creation ever because I will post mate in a second. All of those. So for me, they came very close to each other because I realized even though I want to eat better and I know a little bit more about how to eat better and I shop a little better. If I don't have stuff already prepared, I'm going to still reach out to the stuff that's not great for me. So yeah, so they were close. They were close together. Dr. Berry: Now of course the minds are gonna want to know, what is Dr. Lisa eating when she's meal prep it, right? Like what? Because you do these Google searches, right? They got these immaculate looking meal. Dr. Lisa Folden: Let me just say a little disclosure here and people who will follow my Instagram. They already know this. I wrote my book last year and it's called Healthy Made Easy: The Ultimate Wellness Guide for Busy Moms and I touch on meal prep and exercise and tons of things in there. The sequel to that book, I guess in a way, and this was by popular demand, was a recipe book. And let me just say, I am about three quarters of the way through the recipe book that was supposed to be released in May and it has been more than a notion and it's because of just what you said, it is so hard to put out a recipe book that does not look like the stuff that you see when you Google. And I'm like, so it has been a huge stress to me to where I've been contemplating whether or not I'm going to release it. But yes, it can be overwhelming when you see these great looking whatever to flay. Dr. Berry: They have it lined up and some got chicken. Some type of protein, red meat. Then you got your asparagus you got, and I'm looking like, I look nothing like that. What am I? Okay. Alright. Dr. Lisa Folden: Well here's the thing. Neither do I. My stuff is simple. For the most part, I pretty much, I have this go-to garlic and herb seasoning that I use on almost everything and it's literally like I just buy it in bulk at this point. Because I can, I do not have time to be doing like 15 ingredients dishes. Now there's times when you want to splurge and go crazy or I saw this cool thing, I want to try it, but my regular, no. So my things are simple. At least two weeks out of a month. I am eating egg muffins for breakfast. It's so simple. I literally cracked 24 eggs in a bowl, sprinkle some pepper, and then I make a decision. Is it going to be bell pepper this week? Is it going to be a little Turkey or chicken sausage? What am I going to put in this egg? I scrambled them up and I pour them into a muffin pan, two muffin pans, and I bake them for 20 minutes on three 50. I throw those in a Ziploc bag and my kids and I and my husband, we grab them every morning for bread. I don't even want mine up. Super simple. So everything I do, I try to keep it very basic. When I step outside of the confines of basic, I typically find myself annoyed or frustrated. So I put myself back in. Dr. Berry: Because it takes a little bit longer or is that the? Dr. Lisa Folden: It takes longer. The stress associated with it. It's like, oh I want, you know, you see this on Google and its like, oh this is a beautiful, I want to do that. And it's like, you know, it doesn't have to be that way. Just make some food that's edible and tastes decent and go for it. I tell my kids all the times, we are not living to eat. We are eating to live. Okay. (Yes). So everything is not going to be the very best thing you've ever tasted, but we're going to get through it. I try to make my food tastes good just as a disclaimer. So I try to keep it very simple dinners. I mean we tip, I don't do red meat and it's really just been a preference since I was like 12 years old. So I don't eat red meat. I don't eat pork. But we have a lot of chicken dishes, a lot of ground Turkey or Turkey breasts, dishes, and then a lot of fish. So we do a lot. We have one fish meal at least every week. So this week we had a shrimp stir fry that was so easy. I literally bought the frozen raw de veined and unsheltered shrimp from my local BJ's and then I bought a couple bags of frozen stir fry vegetables. I put them in a Ziploc bag together. I sprinkled some low sodium soy sauce on them. It's my famous garlic and herb seasoning. A little bit of olive oil. I kind of wish the bag around, throw it in the freezer. Yesterday when I came home from work I threw it in a pan and we ate it. It was so easy. Dr. Berry: I love it because you keep knocking down now, time, come on. Dr. Lisa Folden: It doesn't take time if you do it wisely. It doesn't take a lot of time. Some people love cooking. So some people meal prep is cool. It's like an expression of their art and they don't mind being in the kitchen for a long time and making fancy stuff. And I'll say more power to you. I'm not that person. I cook because I have a family. If I did not have a family, I'm sure I will be ordering like hello fresh or one of those. And I often recommend that to people. I'm like, I meal prep. I think it's the best thing ever. But you know what, it's not for every single person in the way that I do it. So if you can afford it and fit it into your budget, order from a digital delivery service that you have researched and found their ingredients and their options to be healthy. Do it that way. And a lot of those, you still have to do the cooking and they just give you the fresh ingredients kind of prepped. So whatever works, I'm here for whatever works for you. And you know, everybody. Dr. Berry: I love it. I love it. I have to make that. Mentally, I see myself, I just haven't made that leap where I got in. Of course, but those who may not know. But you should already know. Like I'm dealing with the fact that like I'm still in my rehab process. I’m only got one leg. I'm just willing around in places, but like I already know mentally, once I get on my feet and figuratively, that's definitely gonna be the direction I want to go and go there. Because it makes so much sense and aware of it, if you prepare. And I love that I'm still thinking about that one line. Because we got to eat. We know we eat. It's a surprise that I'm going to be hungry Wednesday night. I'm going to eat Wednesday night, so if you're going to eat, why don't you just go ahead and prepare the food now and not have to spend that money going out and eating and I'm 100% I here for that and we got here on record that she's going to be finishing her recipe book soon. So we're gonna keep pushing it. My friends know me, I will DM every week and like, hey, what's going on? How's that book going? Everything alright? We waited for the book to come out. So I am going to be on Lunch and Learn community. You don't have to worry about and that you gotta get that book out of it because it I think is definitely needed. Especially if people asking for it. You gotta give it to them. Dr. Lisa Folden: I will. I definitely will. And I appreciate the accountability. So I will. I will get it together. Dr. Berry: Especially in your line of work, when you're working with people and you're working with the whole aspect of wellness, whether it be planning and goal setting. What has been some of the benefits and what has it been some of the successes that you've seen thus far and the whole kind of onus of it? Dr. Lisa Folden: Oh, I mean, it's so many things. A lot of my clients who make the decision to transition to a lifestyle where they're just being accountable and being knowledgeable about what they eat, planning for and things like that. I mean everything. From the very obvious weight loss, inches lost, fitting into clothes they hadn't before to more internal and personal benefits. I have clients that are like, I couldn't walk from the back of the parking lot before, you know what I mean? Or I couldn't do the stairs without my knee rubbing or I couldn't even see myself getting back to the gym. So tons of tons of things when people make a decision that they're gonna change and do something to better themselves no matter how hard it is, that's the key. We've got to get over that hump apart. Because most of the stuff that's worth having is harder to do. So once they get that mindset and we sit down and we set a plan, the positive results are just so many. There's just so many good things. And it'll be like, because everybody is not like, oh I need to be a size five. I got to lose this weight. Some people are very, very genuine about like, I just want to be able to chase my grandkids around. I don't want to be out of breath. You know what I mean? I want to feel better. I don't want to be sleepy every single day, all day. My clients come to me dragging sometimes. You know what I mean? I'm exhausted. I was up to two in the morning working. I didn't have breakfast. I didn't go extra. It's like Jesus, I can't live, that's enough pressing way to live, for so long. So it just so many benefits to just getting that action plan set, getting your life in order. And it translates to everything we do. Every single thing. You are going to be a better worker, you're going to be a better husband, father, wife, friend, everything. You're better when you're taking better care of yourself. And it's a big part of the self-care journey, so big on that. Dr. Berry: I love it. We love self-care here. A love affirmations. We love preempting the inevitable and that's where the meal prepping and Prehab and everything else kind of comes in. And I know you talked, especially with your practice where you focus on you, obviously you have patients you know who have some physical ailments that you take care of and then you kind of deal with the ones. Do you also just take care of patients on just strictly who may not have physical ailments but like, oh I just need to get my wellness together? Dr. Lisa Folden: Absolutely. So I offer just straight wellness. Several people, they will contact me and they will say I want to get into the gym but I'm uncomfortable. I don't really know what to do. Or maybe I just lost a lot of weight and you know, now I want to kind of tell but I don't know where to go or what to do or how to keep it off or you know, I get all kinds of stuff. So yes, I take people straight for wellness. I also offer kind of a newer service is called a Mobility Visit. And this is a whole separate podcast, I'm sure, but I have a true passion for teaching people the benefits of stretching and mobility in their body with regard to the muscles and joint and, Oh God, I want to say maybe 80% of us like don't stretch unless we're maybe about to do something. Dr. Berry: Again, Lunch and Learn community, we do full disclosure here. I had to go to, I went to Disney with the kids, right, because that's what got to do. I'm in Florida. There's one of the rides or that wasn't even a ride. It was just some session that we went to. Where you got to sit like Indian style. I couldn’t even sit Indian style. I didn't even know how hard it was to see. I'm like, oh my, I used to be able to do this. And mind you, I'm going to the gym and I thought I was doing something but clearly I wasn't working the right muscles because I tried it and I couldn't do it. Dr. Lisa Folden: Some of the most athletic strong aesthetically perfect looking people are the tightest and never stretch. It's amazing. So I spent a lot of time offering a new service called the Mobility Visit where you literally come in, have 45 minutes, but I'll do a very quick assessment. And then I take you through guided stretches for every major muscle group in your body. And then we end with a little bit of soft tissue work just at the base of the skull, right in the neck. And people get up and they literally feel like a new person. And it's like this is something you could have almost all done on your own. But it's a service I've had to offer because people don't know how to stretch. They don't know how long the whole stretches. They don't know what position is best to stress stretch particular muscles. So that is one of the wellness services I offer. It has nothing to do with physical therapy or injuries necessarily. It's not a service that they can necessarily cover with their health insurance. But it's a wellness service that I offer. Dr. Berry: Clearly needed. I had to put my leg, let us stretch one leg out because I couldn't not do that any side. I'm like alright, okay. Dr. Lisa Folden: It’s very common though, especially among men. Dr. Berry: I said okay, I got to get myself, need to get this type of some type of yoga, someone need to teach me how to stretch. That's what it was. That like someone just probably gotta like try to do that like some online thing like you gotta probably like formulate like some a video step process. I think that would definitely do well for you. Before I get you out of here. Because again I'm very nosy. (Me, too. That's fine). Let's talk about healthy made easy and I want to talk about all of your business ventures because I'm always impressed by my guests and all the amazing things that they do. Like I said, they helped motivate me, they kind of get me together. Let's talk about that first book, the motivation behind that first book and obviously, and they were going to kind of spill the beans on every, again you talked about the mobility. Let's talk about everything that you're doing. So the people who are listening can know, where you're from here, location wise? Dr. Lisa Folden: So I'm originally from Detroit but I have been living in Charlotte, North Carolina, eleven years. So that's where I am and that's where my practice is. Dr. Berry: Okay, perfect. So what made you write the book? What was the driver forced, you know what, I need to get a book out here. Dr. Lisa Folden: Yeah. It's so funny. So a lot of things. I blog a lot, I write a lot. I've always been into writing, but usually short little things, essays. So what I was finding in my practices, I was repeating a lot of the same information, especially to my moms, to people who were trying to sort of organize their life and combat that primary excuse for healthy living right time. I don't have time to work out. I don't have time to go to the gym. I don't have time to meal prep, my kids this and I do this and work in that and that, dah, dah, dah, dah. All of that sounds like, you know what? I started jotting down some thoughts and I was like, you know what? I need to write a book. So this was maybe early 2018 and put it off, put it off, and then I finally just went to town. I think I wrote the bulk of my book proudly in a two month timeframe because I was literally coming home from work just I was typing on my phone in between patients, you know, so it's called Healthy Made Easy: The Ultimate Wellness Guide for Busy Moms. And I say that, mom's a big market, but it's really for busy people. I mean honestly it's anybody who has a lot going on in their life and doesn't feel like they can make time to exercise. So I have a chapter on meal prepping where I talk about how to make it easy, what to do. I recommend some websites for recipes. I have a chapter on incorporating your children and your family into your new lifestyle, especially when you have picky eaters. Talk about ways to, you know, hide foods and make the meals attractive to children or to your spouse or whomever. I talk about social eating. People don't recognize how challenging it can be to go out with your friends or family when you're trying to eat a certain way. And so I give some very, very simple tips for that. I talk about that. That's mostly the part of the book on nutrition. Second half of the book is all about exercise and fitness. So I have workouts in here, sample workouts for when you're taking your kids to the playground or you have your kids at a sports practice, give suggestions and tips and things you can do. I try to, I have a chapter talking about incorporating fitness into your everyday lifestyle, like making exercise double as family time. So you guys all go for a hike or things like that. Everybody involved because it's a lifestyle. Right? And if you go to my Instagram, you'll see my kids are on there with me exercising all the time because they see me do it and it's just a normal part of their lives. I talk about having navigate gym equipment and I have some very unpopular thoughts on the unpopular opinion on some of the equipment at the gym. I'm more of a home workout person myself, but I do appreciate the gym but only for certain aspects. And then, the last chapter in the book talks about focusing on your fitness without comparing your journeys to other people. We so often, especially as women, and I think men do it as well. We see someone else and it's like, well I want to do that, I want to look like that. This is your body and your process and you need to want to look like you. And whatever byproducts of being healthy and fit is for your body will thankful for that. But trying to formulate a plan to look and be like, someone else is always wrong. So I talk about that in the book. But I'm very proud of it. It's available on Amazon and through my website. It was my little labor of love and it took me a little under a year to complete. So that a good tool for people but especially for women, people with children, pets, if you're taking care of elderly, family members, you got a lot on your plate. It's a good book for you to understand you’re making time for your fitness. My practice here in Charlotte, it's called healthy fit, physical therapy and wellness. And I have a little spell fit, the normal way. It's actually spelled P, H, I, T and that was just a play on words, the P and the T for physical therapy. So, but yet we see clients literally ages zero to a hundred. I see pediatrics adults. I consider myself a generalist. Though I do have a lot of work in the pediatric world as well as low back pain. That's a very, very, very common diagnosis that I get. So I do a lot of lumbar stability and core strengthening, things like that. And I'm here for all of it. I refer out if I feel like you know, what you got going on is a little bit more in depth than I feel like. So have some people I refer out to, but in general I see most patients. So if you go to my website, www.healthyphit.com. You can sign up for my mailing list and I have a free posture packet that you will receive via email. And that's been really good for people because most people don't really know what good posture is. When I see a client and I tell them to, let me see your best posture. What I typically get is some exaggeration of that posture. Dr. Berry: Yes. Lunch and Learn community, I can't see, but mentally I was actually, once she said that I was actually about to sit up. Oh she looking at my posture? I don't know. Dr. Lisa Folden: Whenever someone says posture, I'm like whoa. So I usually see some exaggeration of good posture where they're like in that military stand or you know. Dr. Berry: Is that even a good posture though? Is that? Okay. Dr. Lisa Folden: It is not. So I send out to sign up for my mailing list, I send out sort of a sheet that that shows you some of the common poor posture positions and then the best ideal posture. And the goal is to get as close to that as possible. Our bodies are our bodies. Everybody's not going to be the exact same, but just some general ideas and then some information about areas of back pain and what might be causing themselves. I like to share that information with people for free and that also have on my website, if you go to our shop tab, I have a couple of trainings. I'll have some more up. I have one that I'm working on now that is for like managing chaos in your life. Simplifying and making things smoother. But right now what I have on the site of training for people interested in physical therapy. So I kind of go through that whole process of initial interests through school and then journey into private practice. And then I have another one. Yeah, that's a good one. I was fortunate enough to do a presentation for the North Carolina health occupation, students of America, their conference here. And so I basically did that presentation. So I just rerecorded it, kind of condensed it a little bit and offer it for people on my website, for a much reduced amount. And then also because I do a lot of writing and I have been very blessed to be featured in a lot of great places. Some of my tips on health and fitness. I have a Webinar that is up on my website right now recording that is for people who are interested in that. So if you're interested in having your blogs or you’re just your writing featured in major publications like Oprah or shape magazine or Reader’s Digest. Dr. Berry: Drop the names on it so they know you're not playing out here. Because I read the bio, they might've skipped the bio. Let folks know what just some of the places that you've been in so they know. Dr. Lisa Folden: Thank you. Yeah that webinar is for people. It's just five steps to getting your writing speeches but yes, I have been fortunate enough to be featured in the Oprah magazine. I was a big one for me because you know is Oprah is Oprah. I've been teaching in shape magazine. I've been featured on livestrong.com, Bustle, She knows, oh, there's so many. I mean I don't have my list in front of me, but I love writing and that is why I love writing and it's so cool because I'm writing about health and fitness related things and exercise. And so literally, I mean the topics from, I got emailed an article today from, what is it? I can't even recall, but I was talking about foam rolling. So I love to put my 2 cents out there about some of the latest health trends and give people tips and tools and things from someone who has some experience, with those things. So yeah, if you want to be featured and do that type of work, I have a webinar on that and yeah. And I'll have more, I'll be loading more as weeks go by just having to sit down and make times for recording. Dr. Berry: Too busy. I hear we gotta to get you like a VA or somebody to have direction. Dr. Lisa Folden: Just had that conversation. I totally need one of those. Put that in the show notes. Dr. Berry: We need. Because we can get the second book. You don't free up some of her time. So we need to be able to try to free up some of your time to get the second book out here. Love it, love it, love it. And you talked about the second book so this is going to be essentially a kind of a recipe book just based off the meal plan. Okay. Dr. Lisa Folden: Yap. So it's going to be just basic recipes that I'm going to right now the format I have is sort of a set section for breakfast, recipes, lunch, dinner, and then I'm going to have sort of a bonus section for kids’ lunch ideas. Because I tried to get very creative with my kids because I'm not really the sandwich maker. I get very bored with that. So I try to get creative with their lunches. And so sometimes when I post them to Instagram I have people like what is that? How'd you do that? So I'm like, you know what, let me just throw a few. So I'm thinking maybe five to seven kid lunch idea. So you guys have some options for that too. Because sometimes it's nice to make their stuff fun. You know, we'll do like Turkey dogs skewers with like piece of Turkey dog, some string cheese, Turkey dogs, cool stuff. You know, it doesn't take long. I'm not that mom, I don't have a whole lot of time. But sometimes I try to give them little cutesy ideas for that. So yeah, we're working on that. I'm gonna maybe if I say it out loud, I'm gonna set a tentative deadline of. (Let’s go, let’s go). December, by the end of the year. Dr. Berry: Alright. You heard it here and again, I'm one of the best accountability partners. I'll be in the DMs. I'll be in the comments like, Oh hey, Christmas is coming around. That'd be an amazing Christmas gift. Dr. Lisa Folden: I'm going to get it and I'm going to send you one, that’s what I’m going to do. That gonna be Christmas present from me. Dr. Berry: I love it. I love it. Before I let you go, I always ask my guests, how is what you're doing helping to empower others to take better control of their health? Dr. Lisa Folden: Well, what I hope and what I believe based on some of my client feedback and see that I'm leading by example. You know, I'm not just sitting here giving you a list of impossible things to do that I have not done or tried myself. But I'm actually being very honest. I'm being tried to be very honest about my own shortcomings and my own struggles with this whole journey of wellness and nutrition. Dr. Berry: It is a journey. I think that people need to realize that this isn't like a stopping go. The journey contained some ups. It does have some downs as well. Dr. Lisa Folden: Absolutely. And it's ongoing. So my goal is to just be authentic and transparent and open so that people can see that I'm doing this with them and leading by example. And I'm trying to do my part because my goal is to provide some level of inspiration. If it's just enough to get you at the starting block. We're doing something, we're going somewhere. But I teach people to be accountable for themselves and to recognize that your happiness, your joy, your health is only your responsibility. These kids that we love so much, they will drain every ounce of your energy and they don't care what you eat, okay? They'll find if you eat cheddar cheese popcorn all night and hang out with the people in your life that love you the most, are not necessarily checking for your health and it's your responsibility all the time. So I just try to, I put it back on them. This is your life, your body, your health. You only get to do this once, right? As far as we know, at least in this space. So you gotta do it right? You're trying your best to do it right. And that does not mean perfect. Like I said, we all fall short. We all have tough days, weeks, sometimes a month, right? But the point is you get back up, you keep going. So that's my goal and I hope, you know, and I've had some people say it, but I hope that I continue to inspire people to do this on their own and just and take the reign and say this is my life and I don't have to be governed by what I was taught growing up or what I saw growing up or what the people around me are doing. I can carve out a plan and a direction for my life that I think is better for me and that's it. And I'm not better than the next person because I'm doing it. I'm just trying to be good to me. So. Dr. Berry: And where can people find you? Where can they track you down working stock and make sure when that book comes out, they know where to purchase. And again, remember Lunch and Learn community, all of this information, it will be in the show notes so you don't have to like write it down scurrying down. Now it will be in the show notes. But wait, where can they find a website? All that. I know you said it before, but for our late stragglers. Dr. Lisa Folden: So I love Instagram. I tried to limit my time on there, but I am on Instagram all the time. So that's at healthy phit. H. E. A. L. T. H. Y. P. H. I. T. That's me on Instagram. I'm also on Facebook. I will be honest, I do smaller interactions on Facebook, but everything that I post to Instagram goes to Facebook so you can see my posts there as well. Dr. Berry: Just go to Instagram. Some great pictures. Dr. Lisa Folden: Thank you. And Twitter is the same way. I don't really spend time on there, but everything I say that I can get to my Twitter page goes there as well. So everything is at healthy phit. And then, of course, my website, which is healthyphit.com. You guys can email me if you have questions. info@healthyphit.com and yeah, join my mailing list cause I send out my blogs, which is also on our website and I send out specials and you guys are the first to know and when I do release something or when a webinar's available and things like that. So. Dr. Berry: I love it. I love it. Dr. Lisa, again I want to, and I thought we'd talked earlier but I do want to show the graciousness of being able to take time and get me together. I get our Lunch and Learn community members together on a topic that is so important. Once you Google lifestyle changes, you know, meal prepping, nutrition is such a big thing that pops up and just the fact that you're able to simplify it and really give that personal touch. We really appreciate me taking the time to talk to us today. Dr. Lisa Folden: Thank you. I'm so glad you had me on. I appreciate it and I love your podcast. I will be a continued subscriber and listener. Dr. Berry: I love it. So you have a great day. Again, thank you. And again, guys, remember, she said December. So we gotta, we'll plan a campaign around November time frame to start like just dropping comments, and so we can get a good little Christmas gift like that. That's going to be us. We want that Christmas gift. We want, we want it the book to come out and again, again pick up the book is as on your website now as well as Amazon? (Yes). Right. Okay. I always tell my listeners if you can get a chance, always get the books off the person's website, right? Because Amazon, you know, they try to take all that money, right? Like so you can get the book off the website first, right? If you have to, right. If you gotta get it kindled out, whatever, that’s okay. Dr. Lisa Folden: I understand. We don't care how you get it. Dr. Berry: Just get it. That's probably the goal. We don't care how you get it. Just get it done. And you know, we're gonna appreciate you for it. Thank you again for joining the podcast. Dr. Lisa Folden: Thank you so much. Download the MP3 Audio file, listen to the episode however you like.